Michele Bachmann’s Sex Clinics

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Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Mars) announces the latest far right fever swamp fantasy: the health care reform bill is going to allow the demonic Planned Parenthood to set up … I hope you’re sitting down … sex clinics in the schools of America! With free abortions for 13-year olds!

What’s worse than death panels? Sex clinics!

[Run around screaming…] Sex clinics! We’re doomed!

Youtube Video

And as a matter of fact, the bill goes on to say what’s going to go on — comprehensive primary health services, physicals, treatment of minor acute medical conditions, referrals to follow-up for specialty care — is that abortion? Does that mean that someone’s 13 year-old daughter could walk into a sex clinic, have a pregnancy test done, be taken away to the local Planned Parenthood abortion clinic, have their abortion, be back and go home on the school bus that night? Mom and dad are never the wiser.

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461 comments

1 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:20:10am

So no actual sex in the sex clinics? What good is that?!?!?
//

2 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:20:58am

Well, nobody would be tardy, or cut class...

3 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:21:10am

"I think I'll sign up for the breeding program."

— The Hippo in "Madagascar."

4 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:21:43am

It's hopeless, this thread will be irreverent.

5 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:22:09am

For such a pretty woman, she sure is stupid.

6 bosforus  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:22:10am

Bring out the jokesters for this thread.

7 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:22:14am

I'd like to see what she's talking about.

8 Kragar  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:22:20am

Give a 13 year old boy a lecture on getting your bore punched with a video and instructional aids and you could buy a couple years of safety right there.

9 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:22:29am

re: #4 Ojoe

It's hopeless, this thread will be irreverent.

What did you expect?

10 Lee Coller  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:22:39am

I don't care where you fall on the political spectrum, Michele Bachmann is an idiot. (I'm to the right of most here).

11 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:23:04am

She's pretty. I'd take a sex clinic with her.


...Oh, hi, Mrs. Fish, no, I'm not getting into any tr -- *shot*

12 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:23:13am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Give a 13 year old boy a lecture on getting your bore punched with a video and instructional aids and you could buy a couple years of safety right there.

I thought they taught that in shop class.

Oops. Wrong bore.

13 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:23:13am

re: #10 Lee Coller

I don't care where you fall on the political spectrum, Michele Bachmann is an idiot. (I'm to the right of most here).

Our own Cynthia McKinney. Well, at least she's attractive.

14 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:23:32am

re: #9 MandyManners

A screamingly funny thread.

15 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:23:32am

Do you get abortion tickets at the beginning of the month like you do lunch tickets?

16 Racer X  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:23:36am
Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Mars)

LMAO!

17 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:23:45am

Gee, Charles, she's no crazier than the Dems' own Cynbat the Sailor McKinney.

/Insanely unconvincing tu quoque

18 Kragar  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:24:07am

re: #12 MandyManners

Oops. Wrong bore.

Thats what she said!

19 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:24:12am

Does anyone know what her position was on Gardasil vaccinations for young girls? A wee bit OT, but same general ballpark.

Anyway - it is my belief that people who take this kind of position, assuming the worst of both parents and daughters, were wanton, lascivious, insatiable teen nymphs who spent more time under the bleachers than in class. And now, they cannot believe that their behavior was outside the norm, and are convinced that all girls will be similarly sexually active, and all parents similarly disengaged. So she is trying to legislate away her own bad behavior. On the one hand: shame on you! On the other hand: where were you when I was thirteen???!!

20 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:24:15am

We certainly wouldn't want young women to take their health seriously. ///

21 davinvalkri  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:24:25am

Ah, she's from Minnesota! No wonder.

/Sorry to any lizards from Minnesota

But, really, she sounds like somebody on the Colbert Report. Stuff like this is why the health care reform bill will pass with lots of votes. Which makes me sad.

22 CommonCents  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:24:54am
"[Run around screaming...] Sex clinics! We’re doomed!"

The visual just makes me laugh.

23 bofhell  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:24:58am

/sarcasm Roman Polanski I presume will run the program from France.

Although on a serious note, the Government of France has dropped their public support for Polanski, stating no one is above or below the law. [dg -- what does it mean to be below the law anyhow?]

24 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:25:05am

re: #13 EmmmieG

Our own Cynthia McKinney. Well, at least she's attractive.

GMTA

25 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:25:12am

re: #17 Shiplord Kirel

Cynbats are all sailing off the deep end.

26 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:25:20am

This woman is fucking nuts.

27 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:25:21am

So she's saying that Planned Parenthood will be in schools and parents will have no right to know what is being discussed with their minor children?

I can see a problem with that.

28 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:25:40am

re: #26 MandyManners

This woman is fucking nuts.

The question is, whose nuts?

29 Kragar  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:25:48am

re: #20 Sharmuta

We certainly wouldn't want young women to take their health seriously. ///

If theywere learning about ID like they were supposed to, it wouldn't be a problem.

//

30 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:26:00am

Hooray for the Sex Clinics!

31 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:26:09am

re: #28 thedopefishlives

The question is, whose nuts?

Not mine. My wife keeps mine in a jar by her desk when I'm not home.

32 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:26:16am

re: #27 Ben Hur

So she's saying that Planned Parenthood will be in schools and parents will have no right to know what is being discussed with their minor children?

I can see a problem with that.

I can, too, but I don't see it happening.

33 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:26:20am

re: #24 Shiplord Kirel

GMTA

Republicans--we promise not to inflict ugly crazy politicians on you...

34 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:26:23am

"Braille biology" is what we used to call it.

35 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:26:36am

Pawlenty/Bachmann '12!

That'll teach them libruls.

36 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:26:43am

re: #28 thedopefishlives

I just spat out Hawaiian Punch.

37 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:26:54am

re: #20 Sharmuta

We certainly wouldn't want young women to take their health seriously. ///

13 year olds are "young women?"

38 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:27:13am

re: #27 Ben Hur

So she's saying that Planned Parenthood will be in schools and parents will have no right to know what is being discussed with their minor children?

I can see a problem with that.

No. She said girls would be taken to Planned Parenthood. For which there is no evidence.

39 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:27:26am

re: #35 Shiplord Kirel

Pawlenty/Bachmann '12!

That'll teach them libruls.

If she were my VP, I would never get any work done. "Ms Bachman - dicktation, please!"

40 CommonCents  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:27:29am

re: #32 MandyManners

I can, too, but I don't see it happening.

Of course you don't. That's the whole point.

41 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:27:31am

re: #36 MandyManners

I just spat out Hawaiian Punch.

And that, my friend, is why they pay me the medium-size bucks.

42 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:27:32am

re: #27 Ben Hur

Uhhh...she's making stuff up. It's not real.

43 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:27:40am

re: #32 MandyManners

I can, too, but I don't see it happening.

Is that the controversy? That Bachman is saying that this is what COULD happen? Or is it really in the bill?

44 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:27:48am

re: #37 Ben Hur

13 year olds are "young women?"

If they are menstruating, then yes. They need yearly check ups.

45 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:27:59am

re: #26 MandyManners

This woman is fucking nuts.

Just call me an acorn.
///

46 CommonCents  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:28:22am

re: #28 thedopefishlives

The question is, whose nuts?


Or is it who's nuts? Are you insinuating that she and Mr. Beck are an item?

47 bofhell  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:28:39am

Beck and Bachmann ranting the same day. Anyone seen these two at the same time?

48 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:29:01am

re: #46 CommonCents

Dream team GOP 2012.

49 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:29:27am

The core issue is that we have so taboo-ized sex in this country that we cannot even take proper care of our sons and daughters without getting someone's puritan dander up.

50 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:29:34am

re: #38 wrenchwench

No. She said girls would be taken to Planned Parenthood. For which there is no evidence.

I thought the "sex clinics" were a PP operation? That's what it sounded like.

The only thing I have a problem with is not informing parents.

I get the incest rape argument, but still.

51 davinvalkri  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:29:47am

re: #48 Ojoe

Dream team GOP 2012.

Oh god no...Buckley Goldwater 2012, even though they're both dead.

52 CommonCents  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:29:50am

re: #48 Ojoe

Dream team GOP 2012.

That would leave Palin out. How about a Palin, Bachmann ticket. Bikini posters for your Republican ticket?

53 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:30:17am

re: #50 Ben Hur

I thought the "sex clinics" were a PP operation? That's what it sounded like.

The only thing I have a problem with is not informing parents.

I get the incest rape argument, but still.

If a girl is being raped, shouldn't she be removed from the home? It seems very common sense to me.

54 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:30:48am

re: #52 CommonCents

That would leave Palin out. How about a Palin, Bachmann ticket. Bikini posters for your Republican ticket?

Every State of the Union address would be like a Roger Plant video.

55 Racer X  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:31:10am
Spiritual Women Have More Sex

Is it sexy to be spiritual? New research has found that spirituality has a greater effect on the sex lives of young adults — especially women — than religion, impulsivity, or alcohol.

Oh God!
Yes!
Yes!
Yes!
Yes!

56 Kragar  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:31:25am

Would-be suicide-bomber added to list of Palestinian women to be freed

Habib, a mother of four, was arrested on May 20, 2007, at the Erez crossing on the Israel-Gaza border together with her 39-year-old cousin Fatma Zek, following intelligence from the Israel Security Agency (Shin Bet).

The Shin Bet learned that Habib and Zek planned to meet a terrorist operative from Ramallah inside Israel who, according to the plan, would provide them with suicide bomb belts.

Zek, a mother of nine, will also be released on Friday, together with her two-year-old son who was born in prison.

57 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:32:11am

re: #49 imp_62

... someone's puritan dander up.

I've never heard anyone call it by that name before. Is that a new euphemism?

58 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:32:12am

re: #53 EmmmieG

If a girl is being raped, shouldn't she be removed from the home? It seems very common sense to me.

Absolutely.

Was just commenting on the usual argument about parental notification regarding abortions is incestuous rape.

I'm a little confused about wtf this chick is talking about.

59 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:32:48am

FWIW Tinklenberg is running against her again. Anyone inclined to get get this national embarrassment out of office can donate:

[Link: www.tinklenberg2010.com...]

60 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:33:03am

re: #57 CyanSnowHawk

Call it what you will Hawk. My wife simply giggles and points.

61 Racer X  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:33:06am

re: #37 Ben Hur

13 year olds are "young women?"

Roman says yes.

62 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:33:06am

re: #58 Ben Hur

Absolutely.

Was just commenting on the usual argument about parental notification regarding abortions is incestuous rape.

I'm a little confused about wtf this chick is talking about.

She's just squawking.

63 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:33:07am

re: #49 imp_62

The core issue is that we have so taboo-ized sex in this country that we cannot even take proper care of our sons and daughters without getting someone's puritan dander up.

?!

Maybe it's because I live in California, but that sounds ludicrous to me.

Bachmann's spouting irrational nonsense, but prudishness isn't a notable problem.

64 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:33:16am

I get really sick and tired of the abuse Planned Parenthood receives. If not for PP- many low income women would not have access to necessary health check-ups and birth control. There is a lot more to Planned Parenthood than what the demonizers say.

65 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:33:23am

re: #61 Racer X

Roman says yes.

*whack*

66 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:33:47am

re: #42 Killgore Trout

Uhhh...she's making stuff up. It's not real.

What's not real?

The clinics that won't tell parents about medical conditions of their minor children, or shipping them off to PP abortion clinics without telling parents?

67 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:33:54am

Bachmann ran screaming off the cliff some time ago.
How long before she hits the rocks below?

/be back later ... sanity calls

68 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:34:08am

Just up and up, so many on the whacko right would be more happy and well adjusted people if they could just get laid. They would fear sex much less.

69 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:35:06am

re: #68 LudwigVanQuixote

Just up and up, so many on the whacko right would be more happy and well adjusted people if they could just get laid. They would fear sex much less.

One thousand updings.

70 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:35:22am

re: #51 davinvalkri

Oh god no...Buckley Goldwater 2012, even though they're both dead.

Dig 'em up!

A pair of well-preserved corpses couldn't do worse than some of the names put forward and speculated on.

Besides, a few years in which no legislation gets signed is a happy thought, somehow.

71 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:35:34am

re: #68 LudwigVanQuixote

Just up and up, so many on the whacko right would be more happy and well adjusted people if they could just get laid. They would fear sex much less.

Dugger?

72 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:36:21am

re: #68 LudwigVanQuixote

Just up and up, so many on the whacko right would be more happy and well adjusted people if they could just get laid. They would fear sex much less.

It's not just about sex- it's reproductive health. Women need yearly pap smears to check for cervical cancer. It's more treatable when caught early, and it's important young women understand this- it's their lives we're talking about, not just them getting birth control.

73 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:37:06am

re: #72 Sharmuta

It's not just about sex- it's reproductive health. Women need yearly pap smears to check for cervical cancer. It's more treatable when caught early, and it's important young women understand this- it's their lives we're talking about, not just them getting birth control.

Good point.

74 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:38:41am

re: #68 LudwigVanQuixote

It's been established in surveys that "conservatives" have better sex lives. What the surveys are worth? I don't know, but it gives me a chuckle.

75 KenJen  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:39:00am

This coming from a woman who represents a district called Woodbury!

76 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:39:33am

re: #72 Sharmuta

It's not just about sex- it's reproductive health. Women need yearly pap smears to check for cervical cancer. It's more treatable when caught early, and it's important young women understand this- it's their lives we're talking about, not just them getting birth control.

Ohh I agree with you. It does certainly have to side effect of "punishing sinful women" as they see it. This is very much like the way they tried to prevent the HPV vaccine (another thing I hate W. Bush for).

However, the root of it is a deep seated fear of female sexuality and independence. In this aspect the far right in America most resembles radical Islam.

77 jaunte  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:40:21am

re: #74 Dianna

It may only establish that the most common conservative response to a personal question is "everything is just great!"

78 Four More Tears  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:40:37am

re: #75 KenJen

This coming from a woman who represents a district called Woodbury!

I almost fell out of my chair.

79 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:40:41am

re: #76 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh I agree with you. It does certainly have to side effect of "punishing sinful women" as they see it. This is very much like the way they tried to prevent the HPV vaccine (another thing I hate W. Bush for).

However, the root of it is a deep seated fear of female sexuality and independence. In this aspect the far right in America most resembles radical Islam.

The Right tried to prevent the HPV vaccine for ALL women? Or, didn't some protest getting their daughters the shot?

80 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:41:27am

re: #27 Ben Hur

So she's saying that Planned Parenthood will be in schools and parents will have no right to know what is being discussed with their minor children?

I can see a problem with that.

OK, avanti, Charles and IngisKahn, why isn't the above a problem?

81 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:41:47am

re: #74 Dianna

It's been established in surveys that "conservatives" have better sex lives. What the surveys are worth? I don't know, but it gives me a chuckle.


Is this before or after marriage?

If it's only after and they say the sex is great, what's the basis for comparison?

reminds me of this:

[Link: christiannymphos.org...]

82 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:41:50am

re: #76 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh I agree with you. It does certainly have to side effect of "punishing sinful women" as they see it. This is very much like the way they tried to prevent the HPV vaccine (another thing I hate W. Bush for).

However, the root of it is a deep seated fear of female sexuality and independence. In this aspect the far right in America most resembles radical Islam.

Goes all the way back to witch hunts. Strong women, sexuality - all like waving a red cloth at a bull for some people.

83 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:41:54am

re: #76 LudwigVanQuixote

You don't think they have sex?

84 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:42:13am

re: #77 jaunte

It may only establish that the most common conservative response to a personal question is "everything is just great!"

It may indeed.

Still, it's pretty amusing.

85 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:42:43am

re: #82 imp_62

Goes all the way back to witch hunts. Strong women, sexuality - all like waving a red cloth at a bull for some people.

Sort of like Hollywood going after Ms California.

86 avanti  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:42:50am

re: #80 Ben Hur

OK, avanti, Charles and IngisKahn, why isn't the above a problem?

Basically because what she is saying has no basis in fact and there is nothing like that in the bill.

87 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:43:01am

re: #76 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh I agree with you. It does certainly have to side effect of "punishing sinful women" as they see it. This is very much like the way they tried to prevent the HPV vaccine (another thing I hate W. Bush for).

However, the root of it is a deep seated fear of female sexuality and independence. In this aspect the far right in America most resembles radical Islam.

Absolutely they fear female sexuality. The problem is they seem to want to punish innocent girls along with the "guilty" - to have all girls think their anatomy is shameful instead of being responsible and taking care of it/themselves.

88 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:43:09am

re: #74 Dianna

It's been established in surveys that "conservatives" have better sex lives. What the surveys are worth? I don't know, but it gives me a chuckle.

Well I would question who is defined as a "conservative" and what is defined as "better" in those surveys. I am talking about the religious right.

Somehow it seems to me, that missionary, with the lights out, and then praying for forgiveness for your lustfull thoughts and feeling dirty about it, is less satisfying than some good old fashioned boinking like crazed weasels.

And seriously, these people turn purple when even talking about the basics of sexuality.

I would argue very strongly that if someone (male or female) does not even know what a clitoris is, they are unlikely to have a particularly good sex life.

89 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:43:27am

re: #81 Conservative Moonbat

Is this before or after marriage?

If it's only after and they say the sex is great, what's the basis for comparison?

reminds me of this:

[Link: christiannymphos.org...]

I skimmed the article, grinned, and moved on. I didn't dig into it.

BTW, I'm not clicking that link for anything!

90 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:43:56am

re: #82 imp_62

Goes all the way back to witch hunts. Strong women, sexuality - all like waving a red cloth at a bull for some people.

What?

You really don't know much about witch hunts.

91 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:43:58am

For all my philosophy and logic friends here, is Ms. Bachmann setting up a straw man argument here:

And as a matter of fact, the bill goes on to say what’s going to go on — comprehensive primary health services, physicals, treatment of minor acute medical conditions, referrals to follow-up for specialty care — is that abortion?

Straw man set up? Check.
Okay, let's knock it down, but do it as a question, so we can fall back on "I was just posing a question here, not making a statement. (See: Glenn Beck)

Does that mean that someone’s 13 year-old daughter could walk into a sex clinic, have a pregnancy test done, be taken away to the local Planned Parenthood abortion clinic, have their abortion, be back and go home on the school bus that night?

Now, let's set up the next straw man:

Mom and dad are never the wiser.

Is my take at least somewhat correct?

92 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:44:28am

re: #5 MandyManners

For such a pretty woman, she sure is stupid.

Idiot is not the word to describe this woman. Plenty of people are stupid. She's not stupid. She's dangerous. She incites people with completely made up, false information about an organization that is instrumental in helping women with decisions that effect their lives.

93 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:44:34am

re: #83 Ben Hur

You don't think they have sex?

Don't interrupt the stereotyping!

94 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:45:08am

The death of a 14-year-old girl in England after she received a vaccination for Human Papilloma virus (HPV) has prompted a widespread freeze on the country's national vaccination program.

More than 1.4 million girls have received the vaccination in England since the National Health Service (NHS) started administering it in September 2008.

Natalie Morton's sudden death Monday occurred within hours after she received a shot of the vaccine Cervarix at the NHS at her school in Coventry.

Three other girls at the Blue Coat Church of England school suffered mild symptoms of dizziness and nausea after receiving the vaccine, according to media reports.

It remains unclear if the vaccine caused Morton's death. Only an autopsy will be able to determine the exactly cause of death.

Glaxo Smith Kline, the manufacturer of Cervarix, issued a recall of the batch of vaccine used in Coventry as a "precautionary measure." Watch reaction to Natalie Morton's death »

"At this stage the cause of this tragic death is unknown," the company said in a statement posted on their Web site.

"Following immediate quarantine of the batch involved last night, we have taken the decision to voluntarily recall this batch as a further precautionary measure while the investigation into the circumstances surrounding Natalie's death is conducted."

On Tuesday several NHS clinics and schools indefinitely postponed immunizations.


SNIP

95 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:45:18am

re: #64 Sharmuta

You're wrong, Sharm. PP is all about abortion, and nothing but abortion.

/Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it. Demonize it.
//Bachmann Rules for Radicals

96 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:45:28am

re: #86 avanti

Basically because what she is saying has no basis in fact and there is nothing like that in the bill.

OK.

I thought you were disagreeing about parental notification.

97 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:46:04am

re: #90 Dianna

Explain where I went wrong. My understanding is that witch hunts stemmed at least in part from a deep-seated social misogyny, singling out strong-willed and independent women - amongst them healers - as witches.

98 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:46:30am

re: #79 MandyManners

The Right tried to prevent the HPV vaccine for ALL women? Or, didn't some protest getting their daughters the shot?

The right under Bush tried to prevent it from getting approved by the FDA. In that way no woman would get it. Forget the fact that HPV is the cause of cervical cancer. So yes, because they did not want to interfere with G-d's punishment to promiscuous women, they forgot that virgins can get HPV too, W. and his cronies through a bone to the Robertson types by trying to prevent the use of the vaccine.
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

99 Crimsonfisted  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:46:42am

re: #23 bofhell

/sarcasm Roman Polanski I presume will run the program from France.

Although on a serious note, the Government of France has dropped their public support for Polanski, stating no one is above or below the law. [dg -- what does it mean to be below the law anyhow?]

Something like flying under the radar?

100 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:46:55am

re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote

I am absolutely aghast.

Do you actually know people who do that?

Now, granted, I'm sure as hell not going to march up to total strangers outside the four-square gospel church and ask them about their sex lives, but I do not believe I've ever heard anyone advocate the behavior you're describing as typical.

101 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:47:17am

re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote

Well I would question who is defined as a "conservative" and what is defined as "better" in those surveys. I am talking about the religious right.

Somehow it seems to me, that missionary, with the lights out, and then praying for forgiveness for your lustfull thoughts and feeling dirty about it, is less satisfying than some good old fashioned boinking like crazed weasels.

And seriously, these people turn purple when even talking about the basics of sexuality.

I would argue very strongly that if someone (male or female) does not even know what a clitoris is, they are unlikely to have a particularly good sex life.

HAHA!

I'm sure women know about it!

You're right about men though.

Then again, in this day and age, with internet...

Always be nice to the man in the boat!!

102 bofhell  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:48:00am

re: #99 Crimsonfisted

Something like flying under the radar?

Only if it is one of the State of Maryland's radar guns they seem intent on blanketing the area highways with...

103 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:48:06am
104 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:48:33am

re: #94 MandyManners

What a sad story.

105 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:48:40am

re: #94 MandyManners

I read somewhere that on average one person a year in the US will pass out and drown in their morning bowl of breakfast cereal. Should we ban it?

106 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:48:42am

re: #51 davinvalkri

Oh god no...Buckley Goldwater 2012, even though they're both dead.

Given his attitude and beliefs, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Goldwater rise from the grave just to bitch-slap these crazies.

107 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:48:43am

re: #63 Dianna

?!

Maybe it's because I live in California, but that sounds ludicrous to me.

Bachmann's spouting irrational nonsense, but prudishness isn't a notable problem.

Not a notable problem here, either Dianna.
And yes, Bachman is irrational and nonsensical.

108 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:48:54am

re: #83 Ben Hur

You don't think they have sex?

NO I think they have crappy, vaguely painful sex that leaves the woman grateful when her man gets too old for it anymore.

109 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:48:59am

re: #103 buzzsawmonkey

That's been a construct of the last 30 years or so, but I've never seen any proof offered for this article of faith.

So they were truly witches and performed acts of magic and witchcraft? Flew around on brooms?

110 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:49:08am

re: #101 Ben Hur

HAHA!

I'm sure women know about it!

You're right about men though.

Then again, in this day and age, with internet...

Always be nice to the man in the boat!!

Really? I knew a young woman who needed to be told about that part. I'm not kidding. She called me back later and said "thank you".

111 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:49:56am

re: #100 Dianna

I am absolutely aghast.

Do you actually know people who do that?

Now, granted, I'm sure as hell not going to march up to total strangers outside the four-square gospel church and ask them about their sex lives, but I do not believe I've ever heard anyone advocate the behavior you're describing as typical.

What about that woman (preacher's wife?) who shot her husband dead in his sleep and got what... a few days in jail over it? A few months?

During the trial she held up a pair of white pumps and said her husband made her dress up in these tawdry duds. The Horror! The Blasphemy! He deserved to die!

My goodness.

112 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:50:04am

re: #108 LudwigVanQuixote

NO I think they have crappy, vaguely painful sex that leaves the woman grateful when her man gets too old for it anymore.

How religious are we talking about here?!?

113 bloodnok  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:50:10am

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Hooray for the Sex Clinics!

Thank you Obama, for making me love politics again! W00T!

/

114 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:50:13am

re: #108 LudwigVanQuixote

Isn't there anything between "crazed weasel boinking" and "crappy, vaguely painful"?

115 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:50:56am

re: #98 LudwigVanQuixote

The right under Bush tried to prevent it from getting approved by the FDA. In that way no woman would get it. Forget the fact that HPV is the cause of cervical cancer. So yes, because they did not want to interfere with G-d's punishment to promiscuous women, they forgot that virgins can get HPV too, W. and his cronies through a bone to the Robertson types by trying to prevent the use of the vaccine.
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

I don't see in that article what you allege in the first sentence.

116 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:50:57am

re: #110 Sharmuta

Really? I knew a young woman who needed to be told about that part. I'm not kidding. She called me back later and said "thank you".

I'm sure she would've found it.

I know...Oh forget it.

117 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:51:03am

re: #32 MandyManners

Mandy, check your email

118 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:51:18am

From The Simpsons Archive:

Kang: Abortions for all.
[crowd boos]
Very well, no abortions for anyone.
[crowd boos]
Hmm... Abortions for some, miniature American flags for
others.
[crowd cheers and waves miniature flags]
-- American politics in its simplicity, "Treehouse of Horror VII"

119 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:51:23am

re: #105 Conservative Moonbat

I read somewhere that on average one person a year in the US will pass out and drown in their morning bowl of breakfast cereal. Should we ban it?

YES! JUST SAY NO TO THE SPECIAL K! DOWN WITH THE BRAN! NO CAPTAIN CRUNCH FOR YOU!

120 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:51:35am

re: #110 Sharmuta

Really? I knew a young woman who needed to be told about that part. I'm not kidding. She called me back later and said "thank you".

The only calls I ever get later are to remind me to drop off any articles of clothing they forgot while beating a hasty retreat. And if I didn't have correct change.

121 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:51:37am

re: #111 marjoriemoon

What about that woman (preacher's wife?) who shot her husband dead in his sleep and got what... a few days in jail over it? A few months?

During the trial she held up a pair of white pumps and said her husband made her dress up in these tawdry duds. The Horror! The Blasphemy! He deserved to die!

My goodness.

It's no wonder, he deserved it. She killed him in November. He should have known better that you don't demand that someone wears white after Labor Day.
/

122 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:51:42am

re: #94 MandyManners

The death of a 14-year-old girl in England after she received a vaccination for Human Papilloma virus (HPV) has prompted a widespread freeze on the country's national vaccination program.


SNIP

I read earlier today that the girl in questions died from the effects of a tumor in her chest that had not only invaded her lungs, but was beginning to encroach on her heart. She could have gone at anytime.

123 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:51:51am

re: #110 Sharmuta

Really? I knew a young woman who needed to be told about that part. I'm not kidding. She called me back later and said "thank you".

I'm sure she did!

124 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:51:51am
125 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:51:52am

re: #97 imp_62

Explain where I went wrong. My understanding is that witch hunts stemmed at least in part from a deep-seated social misogyny, singling out strong-willed and independent women - amongst them healers - as witches.

This is a long, long conversation.

Suggestion: start with Briggs' Witches and Neighbors. It's a very good book, a study of one area of France.

For Salem, look at Nussbaum's (and a co-author) study, discussing the pattern of accusation.

There's a lot that goes into witch trials and witch hunts. It's not as simple as misogyny, though there certainly was an element of it.

But it wasn't - generally - aimed at "healers", but at poor widows.

126 Kragar  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:51:55am

re: #101 Ben Hur

HAHA!

I'm sure women know about it!

You're right about men though.

Then again, in this day and age, with internet...

Always be nice to the man in the boat!!

Reminds me of a scene from Rome:

Titus Pullo: When you couple with her, there's a spot just above her cunny, it's like a little button. Now... attend to that button, and she will open up, like a flower.
Lucius Vorenus: [aghast] How do you know this about her?
Titus Pullo: *All* women have them! Ask anyone!

127 Crimsonfisted  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:51:57am

re: #109 imp_62

So they were truly witches and performed acts of magic and witchcraft? Flew around on brooms?


Played Quidditch too?

128 avanti  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:52:56am

re: #96 Ben Hur

OK.

I thought you were disagreeing about parental notification.

The bill merely says medical and student records must be protected as is customary. It does not allow abortions and major procedures without parental notification. i.e., they could bandage a girls elbow, but not remove a lung or a fetus for that matter without telling the parents. The clinics would be bound by all parental consent laws. A sane person could not imagine a school clinic doing any kind of major procedure without telling the parents, even if it was the real threat of a lawsuit settlement.

129 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:53:02am

re: #5 MandyManners

For such a pretty woman, she sure is stupid.

I wonder if she could beat Palin in an oil wrestling match.

130 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:53:03am

re: #103 buzzsawmonkey

That's been a construct of the last 30 years or so, but I've never seen any proof offered for this article of faith.

To be fair, there is a lurid sexual element to many of the stories and accusations.

131 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:53:12am

re: #125 Dianna

Thanks, and I will stop by the library.

132 KingKenrod  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:53:23am

re: #76 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh I agree with you. It does certainly have to side effect of "punishing sinful women" as they see it. This is very much like the way they tried to prevent the HPV vaccine (another thing I hate W. Bush for).

However, the root of it is a deep seated fear of female sexuality and independence. In this aspect the far right in America most resembles radical Islam.

Rick Perry (gov of Texas, and of similar mind to Bachmann) actually tried to make HPV vaccines mandatory.

133 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:53:31am

re: #122 CyanSnowHawk

The story is still a terribly sad one.

134 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:53:34am

re: #97 imp_62

Explain where I went wrong. My understanding is that witch hunts stemmed at least in part from a deep-seated social misogyny, singling out strong-willed and independent women - amongst them healers - as witches.

Hi imp_62. Thought ya might be interested in a theory involving ergot and the Salem witch trials. (It's about halfway down, after a description of the fungus itself.)

Ergot and Salem

135 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:53:36am
136 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:53:45am

re: #111 marjoriemoon

What about that woman (preacher's wife?) who shot her husband dead in his sleep and got what... a few days in jail over it? A few months?

During the trial she held up a pair of white pumps and said her husband made her dress up in these tawdry duds. The Horror! The Blasphemy! He deserved to die!

My goodness.

You are talking one woman.
Who doesn't seem to me to be entirely sane.
And the issue wasn't really the white pumps, the issue was her particular husband's apparent wish to completely control her every move.

That was was not as simple as it being a conservative religious person against sex

138 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:54:02am

re: #124 buzzsawmonkey


To believe that people were witches is one thing; to say that the people believed to be witches were "strong women being punished for their sexuality" is something entirely different.

Yes.

Its the English Lit dept. teaching history.

139 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:54:17am

re: #125 Dianna

This is a long, long conversation.

Suggestion: start with Briggs' Witches and Neighbors. It's a very good book, a study of one area of France.

For Salem, look at Nussbaum's (and a co-author) study, discussing the pattern of accusation.

There's a lot that goes into witch trials and witch hunts. It's not as simple as misogyny, though there certainly was an element of it.

But it wasn't - generally - aimed at "healers", but at poor widows.

Very correct.

I love the "popular media" version of history that so many people have hooked into. Heaven help us.

140 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:54:31am

re: #134 subsailor68

Oh yes - I remember that from a documentary some time back. Interesting times, in any case.

141 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:54:50am

re: #100 Dianna

re: #100 Dianna

I am absolutely aghast.

Do you actually know people who do that?

Now, granted, I'm sure as hell not going to march up to total strangers outside the four-square gospel church and ask them about their sex lives, but I do not believe I've ever heard anyone advocate the behavior you're describing as typical.

You forget how many doctors are in my family and how many medical studies are out there.

The following are all stories that involve very far right religious people.

My brother had a couple come in. She complained that sex was painful, that she understood the pain was G-d punishment for being sinful, but as a Christian wife, she had a duty to serve her husband. However, it really did just hurt, and was there anything my brother could advise.

After some questions, it became clear that the husband did not know which opening to use and had been having anal sex with her without lubricant.

My brother spent some time explaining how things work.

If you go on the web, you can find "nervous bride" sites for religious women. If you look at the questions and answers there, you will find the blind led by the frustrated.

142 zelnaga  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:54:57am
And as a matter of fact, the bill goes on to say what’s going to go on — comprehensive primary health services, physicals, treatment of minor acute medical conditions, referrals to follow-up for specialty care — is that abortion?


A general practitioner might refer you to a cardiac surgeon for specialty care. It seems quite a stretch to conclude from that that abortions will be dished out without parental consent. Indeed, the whole thing strikes me as a strawman - she's substituting the language of the bill with her own far fetched and totally unsubstantiated interpretation and then attacking that instead of the bill, itself.

143 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:54:59am

re: #137 Killgore Trout

RINO!
//

144 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:55:28am

re: #128 avanti

The bill merely says medical and student records must be protected as is customary. It does not allow abortions and major procedures without parental notification. i.e., they could bandage a girls elbow, but not remove a lung or a fetus for that matter without telling the parents. The clinics would be bound by all parental consent laws. A sane person could not imagine a school clinic doing any kind of major procedure without telling the parents, even if it was the real threat of a lawsuit settlement.

Thanks.

"Clinic" as in "going to the nurse."

Not "clinic" as in "PP sponsered sex clinic that is something separate and distinct from the school clinic?"

145 Crimsonfisted  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:55:36am

re: #135 buzzsawmonkey

If someone failed to appear for their Quidditch game, was this an instance of a Quidditch player being scratched?

Oh yes, and then the player would be swept out of the team.

146 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:56:23am

re: #141 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #100 Dianna

You forget how many doctors are in my family and how many medical studies are out there.

The following are all stories that involve very far right religious people.

My brother had a couple come in. She complained that sex was painful, that she understood the pain was G-d punishment for being sinful, but as a Christian wife, she had a duty to serve her husband. However, it really did just hurt, and was there anything my brother could advise.

After some questions, it became clear that the husband did not know which opening to use and had been having anal sex with her without lubricant.

...

Sounds like pretty lame excuse by the husband to me. As that is the only orifice he and his wife had in common below the waist.

147 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:57:37am

re: #109 imp_62

So they were truly witches and performed acts of magic and witchcraft? Flew around on brooms?

Oh, dear. Oh, dearie, dearie, me.

Let's break a few things out:

1) Witchcraft - the heresy defined in the Maleus Malificarum, involving a pact with the devil - is an imaginary crime. A few deluded people have probably believed themselves guilty of it.

2) This does not mean that no one ever went to the crossroads at midnight, placed a hand at the crown of his head and another to the sole of his foot and wished the Devil to take all between.

3) There has always been sorcery - the attempt to use magic to move the world in the direction you wish it to go. Most societies have regarded sorcery with grave suspicion.

148 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:57:39am

re: #146 imp_62

Sounds like pretty lame excuse by the husband to me. As that is the only orifice he and his wife had in common below the waist.

Fair enough, but she didn't know any better either.

149 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:58:04am

re: #143 Thanos

It'll be interesting to see this battle take place. Who's going to marginalize whom? It's even odds as far as I can see.

150 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:58:08am

re: #134 subsailor68

Hi imp_62. Thought ya might be interested in a theory involving ergot and the Salem witch trials. (It's about halfway down, after a description of the fungus itself.)

Ergot and Salem

Ergot is not a good explanation of Salem in 1692/3.

151 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:58:31am

re: #124 buzzsawmonkey

You're making kind of a leap there, aren't you? To believe that people were witches is one thing; to say that the people believed to be witches were "strong women being punished for their sexuality" is something entirely different.

Yes, there were people who were believed to be witches (and wizards) who were hunted down and killed for their alleged practice of witchcraft. What has that to do with "sexuality?"

I think it has to do with not following the predefined puritan gender rolls. Strong women were considered socially abnormal and thus were suspect.

152 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:58:39am

Michele Bachmann Overdrive.

153 SixDegrees  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:58:40am

re: #98 LudwigVanQuixote

The right under Bush tried to prevent it from getting approved by the FDA. In that way no woman would get it. Forget the fact that HPV is the cause of cervical cancer. So yes, because they did not want to interfere with G-d's punishment to promiscuous women, they forgot that virgins can get HPV too, W. and his cronies through a bone to the Robertson types by trying to prevent the use of the vaccine.
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

Uh - your article states that the opposition to vaccination centered on it being mandatory and being administered without parental consent. It says nothing even close to what you're claiming in your post.

154 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:58:50am

re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote

Well I would question who is defined as a "conservative" and what is defined as "better" in those surveys. I am talking about the religious right.

Somehow it seems to me, that missionary, with the lights out, and then praying for forgiveness for your lustfull thoughts and feeling dirty about it, is less satisfying than some good old fashioned boinking like crazed weasels.

And seriously, these people turn purple when even talking about the basics of sexuality.

I would argue very strongly that if someone (male or female) does not even know what a clitoris is, they are unlikely to have a particularly good sex life.

Actually, Ludwig, many of these people have very active, though tawdry, sex lives. Just look at Mark Sanford and the many others of his ilk, they are not aberrations. When all sex is sinful and shameful it is more difficult to distinguish right from wrong.
My first wife, aka Jezebel and Jabba the Slutt, was and still is a devout fundamentalist. She could not distinguish between sleeping with her husband and sleeping with her brother-in-law. Her excuse, presented in all seriousness for 30 years, is that she got married and found out she "had married the wrong brother."

155 SixDegrees  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:58:58am

re: #115 MandyManners

I don't see in that article what you allege in the first sentence.

Me, either.

156 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:59:03am

re: #147 Dianna

Agreed. And I apologize for oversimplifying the witchcraft discussion. I should have known better.

157 drcordell  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:59:25am

re: #148 LudwigVanQuixote

Fair enough, but she didn't know any better either.

If that's actually true, hoo boy that is one of the more absurd things I've ever heard. How do you go through life without any knowledge of an entire orifice located on your body?

158 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:59:25am

re: #50 Ben Hur


The only thing I have a problem with is not informing parents.

I get the incest rape argument, but still.


Believe it or not, there are plenty of circumstances other than rape/incest under which involving parents against the will of the girl is an extremely morally reprehensible course of action.

159 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:59:31am

re: #141 LudwigVanQuixote

I am aghast. I am also sure those are exceptions.

I was waiting for the punch-line, "But then, how can we be sure we're getting a lawyer?"

160 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:59:34am
161 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:59:41am

re: #149 Killgore Trout

Which reminds me: Those who complain that LGF isn't conservative enough for them are full of shit. LGF is doing what conservatives should be doing themselves; Exposing and marginalizing the nuts and extremists.

162 bosforus  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:59:45am

And this is exactly why Harry Potter books should be banned. Kids shouldn't be learning about sorcery, they should be learning how to avoid talking about sex. For all I know the Harry Potter books are probably teaching sex to our kids. Witch sex. Crazy witch sex.

163 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:59:50am

re: #151 Conservative Moonbat

I think it has to do with not following the predefined puritan gender rolls. Strong women were considered socially abnormal and thus were suspect.

Amazing how all these women throughout history weren't allowed to do anything, yet they did enough to have whole university departments to study all the ones that went against the grain.

164 avanti  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:59:56am

re: #110 Sharmuta

Really? I knew a young woman who needed to be told about that part. I'm not kidding. She called me back later and said "thank you".

I had the same with one young friend that after a few beers got up the nerve to ask me if it was normal for her to never climax with her husband. As it turned out, foreplay was a kiss or two, than one or two minutes of intercourse.
She finally had real sex with her second husband, and 3 kids to show for the effort.

165 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:00:06pm

re: #152 Ben Hur

Michele Bachmann Overdrive.

We ain't seen nothing yet!

166 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:00:12pm

re: #141 LudwigVanQuixote

That poor woman.

167 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:00:13pm

re: #136 reine.de.tout

You are talking one woman.
Who doesn't seem to me to be entirely sane.
And the issue wasn't really the white pumps, the issue was her particular husband's apparent wish to completely control her every move.

That was was not as simple as it being a conservative religious person against sex

I was not on the jury. I hesitate to make decisions from articles that I've read, but this is what it looks like to me.

You say she wasn't sane? The jury found her entirely sane and bought that rubbish about her husband making her put on sexy clothes and high heels as a means to "control" her. As if he deserved to die for such a thing, even if it did happen, but we have no husband to ask.

I have no idea if he tried to control her. She had options. Shooting him in the back while he was sleeping was not one of them.

168 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:00:21pm

re: #153 SixDegrees

Uh - your article states that the opposition to vaccination centered on it being mandatory and being administered without parental consent. It says nothing even close to what you're claiming in your post.

There are dozens of other articles. I am sorry I did not do an extensive enough search for you on a topic that was all over the news a few short years ago.

What do you think Robertson et al. said about it?

169 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:00:42pm

re: #157 drcordell

If that's actually true, hoo boy that is one of the more absurd things I've ever heard. How do you go through life without any knowledge of an entire orifice located on your body?

I. Have. To. Agree.

170 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:00:53pm
171 TheQuis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:01:07pm

re: #66 Ben Hur

What's not real?

The clinics that won't tell parents about medical conditions of their minor children, or shipping them off to PP abortion clinics without telling parents?

Well the bill explicity states this:
(i) "SBHC services will be provides in accordance with Federal, State, and local laws governing-- (I) obtaining parental or guardian consent; and (II) patient privacy and student records, including section 264 of the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 and section 444 of the General Education Provision Act;


Read more at: [Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

172 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:01:29pm

re: #157 drcordell

If that's actually true, hoo boy that is one of the more absurd things I've ever heard. How do you go through life without any knowledge of an entire orifice located on your body?

the chance of that story being true is zero...

173 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:01:37pm

re: #157 drcordell

If that's actually true, hoo boy that is one of the more absurd things I've ever heard. How do you go through life without any knowledge of an entire orifice located on your body?

Some people go through their whole life not any knowledge of a brain.

174 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:02:08pm

re: #149 Killgore Trout

It'll be interesting to see this battle take place. Who's going to marginalize whom? It's even odds as far as I can see.

Longer term our strategy has to be the Senate since we can't get to near parity anywhere else anytime soon. We can't do that without urban state and moderate state Republican Senators. Politics is about power, and the loons will get pushed out of the limelight as we get nearer to elections. [ I hope... ]

175 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:02:17pm

re: #159 Dianna

I am aghast. I am also sure those are exceptions.

I was waiting for the punch-line, "But then, how can we be sure we're getting a lawyer?"

Yes, I admit that is an extreme case, but if you come up in a culture where you just never talk about it, and you can't talk about it, and it is sinful to want it - and particularly sinful for a woman to want it, how good is it likely to be on average.

Women are a bit more complicated then men sexually. If he has no clue, and she can not talk about it, how good can it be for her?

176 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:02:22pm

re: #158 negativ

Believe it or not, there are plenty of circumstances other than rape/incest under which involving parents against the will of the girl is an extremely morally reprehensible course of action.

Very good point.

177 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:02:30pm

re: #171 TheQuis

Well the bill explicity states this:
(i) "SBHC services will be provides in accordance with Federal, State, and local laws governing-- (I) obtaining parental or guardian consent; and (II) patient privacy and student records, including section 264 of the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 and section 444 of the General Education Provision Act;

Read more at: [Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

All medical treatments of minors - with the exception of emergency situations - require parental consent in most states. It is not always about sex.

178 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:02:36pm

re: #111 marjoriemoon

How is that relevant?

179 drcordell  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:02:49pm

re: #172 albusteve

the chance of that story being true is zero...

I'm inclined to agree with you. But then again, I'd never take a bet against the stupidity of the American public. My buddy is in med school right now and some of the stories he hears from the residents... oh man.

180 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:02:54pm

re: #150 Dianna

Ergot is not a good explanation of Salem in 1692/3.

Hi Dianna. Well, it is just a theory, and I don't know really know enough about it. Thought it was interesting that the folks who came up with it tied the weather patterns to a series of symptoms that matched ergot poisoning. (Suppose they could have been guilty of post hoc, ergo propter hoc though.)

181 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:02:59pm

Robert Spencer fans now showing up.

182 avanti  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:03:16pm

re: #144 Ben Hur

Thanks.

"Clinic" as in "going to the nurse."

Not "clinic" as in "PP sponsered sex clinic that is something separate and distinct from the school clinic?"

You have it, but... I can imagine even today a sexually active girl asking the nurse about birth control and either counseling her or sending her to PP for example.

183 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:03:19pm

I was at a school board meeting a couple of years ago where a crazed creationist blurted out that teaching evolution was "really about promoting illicit sex." I didn't get a chance to ask him how this might work.

184 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:03:38pm

re: #157 drcordell

If that's actually true, hoo boy that is one of the more absurd things I've ever heard. How do you go through life without any knowledge of an entire orifice located on your body?

Ohh I am sure she knew she had a vagina. She just didn't know what it was for, and the pain of unlubricated anal sex fit in with her expectations of wifehood.

185 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:03:45pm

re: #161 Killgore Trout

Which reminds me: Those who complain that LGF isn't conservative enough for them are full of shit. LGF is doing what conservatives should be doing themselves; Exposing and marginalizing the nuts and extremists.

it's tipped...I'm the marginal, extremist now...they are the mainstream, or will be soon...thanks Glenn!

186 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:03:49pm

re: #171 TheQuis

Thank you!

187 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:04:24pm

re: #183 Shiplord Kirel

I was at a school board meeting a couple of years ago where a crazed creationist blurted out that teaching evolution was "really about promoting illicit sex." I didn't get a chance to ask him how this might work.

Easy. Sex clinics for dinosaurs. It started with Viagra

//

188 Kragar  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:04:30pm

re: #164 avanti

I had the same with one young friend that after a few beers got up the nerve to ask me if it was normal for her to never climax with her husband. As it turned out, foreplay was a kiss or two, than one or two minutes of intercourse.
She finally had real sex with her second husband, and 3 kids to show for the effort.

2-3 Minutes? Can that be considered spousal abuse? I consider anything less than 20 minutes a quickie.

189 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:04:33pm

re: #133 Dianna

The story is still a terribly sad one.

Here is the link for the story about the girls prior condition.

191 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:04:53pm

re: #181 Charles

Robert Spencer fans now showing up.

Then, just a little reminder to his fans about his opinion on European nationalist groups...

By the way, did anyone ever see this?

"Robert, can you answer one simple question for me. This would help a lot in deciding what is really going on here. Which European political parties do you UNCONDITIONALLY condemn because of their proven ties to racist nationalism?" (Walter L. Newton email to Robert Spencer sent on Friday, November 07, 2008 1:16 PM)

And his answer...

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

Oops. Wrong answer, huh Robert.

192 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:04:58pm

re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote


There we were, conservative religioius me and my conservative religious husband, out in a cabbage patch at night with flashlights, turning over leaves and looking for babies. We'd been married for a bit, now we thought we'd like a baby, but there didn't seem to be any under these cabbage leaves.

"I'm getting cold," I said.

"Come over here and I'll warm you up," he said.

What do you know, nine months later the baby appeared!

193 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:05:13pm
194 avanti  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:05:34pm

re: #171 TheQuis

Well the bill explicity states this:
(i) "SBHC services will be provides in accordance with Federal, State, and local laws governing-- (I) obtaining parental or guardian consent; and (II) patient privacy and student records, including section 264 of the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 and section 444 of the General Education Provision Act;

Read more at: [Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

So the thing that she's going bat shit over is a requirement to follow all the present laws about parental notification and patient privacy ? The horror !/

195 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:05:43pm

re: #167 marjoriemoon

I was not on the jury. I hesitate to make decisions from articles that I've read, but this is what it looks like to me.

You say she wasn't sane? The jury found her entirely sane and bought that rubbish about her husband making her put on sexy clothes and high heels as a means to "control" her. As if he deserved to die for such a thing, even if it did happen, but we have no husband to ask.

I have no idea if he tried to control her. She had options. Shooting him in the back while he was sleeping was not one of them.

No, shooting him was not.
She is not running on all cylinders, and I do not say that to excuse her.
But to use her as an example of how religious conservatives view sex, as you seemed to be doing, was what I found to be really odd.

196 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:05:58pm

re: #182 avanti

You have it, but... I can imagine even today a sexually active girl asking the nurse about birth control and either counseling her or sending her to PP for example.

We were taught about PP when I was in highschool.

197 davinvalkri  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:06:06pm

re: #106 Shiplord Kirel

Given his attitude and beliefs, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Goldwater rise from the grave just to bitch-slap these crazies.

I'd like to see that!

198 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:06:15pm

re: #179 drcordell

I'm inclined to agree with you. But then again, I'd never take a bet against the stupidity of the American public. My buddy is in med school right now and some of the stories he hears from the residents... oh man.

maybe, but it is so outrageous that to stick it onto a political ideology is somewhat silly...imo

199 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:06:28pm

re: #188 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

2-3 Minutes? Can that be considered spousal abuse? I consider anything less than 20 minutes a quickie.

I actually consider anything longer than 10 minutes as interfering with Sports Center.

200 SixDegrees  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:06:30pm

re: #168 LudwigVanQuixote

There are dozens of other articles. I am sorry I did not do an extensive enough search for you on a topic that was all over the news a few short years ago.

Maybe you should, you know, take the time to actually read the articles you're posting in support of your statements. The blue linky thing by itself doesn't lend any credence - even less so now.

201 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:06:51pm

re: #190 Killgore Trout

Wow, that's gonna piss off a lot of people. Listen to the end. The Tea Parties aren't going to stand for that.

202 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:07:01pm

re: #183 Shiplord Kirel

I was at a school board meeting a couple of years ago where a crazed creationist blurted out that teaching evolution was "really about promoting illicit sex." I didn't get a chance to ask him how this might work.

Being serious now I'll capsulize the thought process:

This goes back to the mistaken trope that if you accept evolution you can't believe in God, therefor you must not have morals, ergo sex in the streets daily if evolution continues...

203 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:07:01pm

re: #154 Shiplord Kirel

Actually, Ludwig, many of these people have very active, though tawdry, sex lives. Just look at Mark Sanford and the many others of his ilk, they are not aberrations. When all sex is sinful and shameful it is more difficult to distinguish right from wrong.
My first wife, aka Jezebel and Jabba the Slutt, was and still is a devout fundamentalist. She could not distinguish between sleeping with her husband and sleeping with her brother-in-law. Her excuse, presented in all seriousness for 30 years, is that she got married and found out she "had married the wrong brother."

I am so sorry to hear that number one. I can not imagine.

Number two, I am not saying that no-one figures it out. I am saying that given the level of anti-sex rhetoric and extreme ignorance about sexual matter from the fundies, many people start at quite a disadvantage and many never really do figure tit out. Also, Sanford is a man. Being blunt, it is hard for a man not to enjoy sex. A woman more often than not, needs a competent lover - or at least one she can talk to about what she likes.

204 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:07:25pm

re: #179 drcordell

I'm inclined to agree with you. But then again, I'd never take a bet against the stupidity of the American public. My buddy is in med school right now and some of the stories he hears from the residents... oh man.

How true. Lots of plans have been laid waste by misunderstanding exactly how stupid humans can be. On the other hand, a lot of people have gotten very rich off the stupidity of humans. Snuggie, anyone?

205 avanti  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:07:42pm

re: #188 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

2-3 Minutes? Can that be considered spousal abuse? I consider anything less than 20 minutes a quickie.

Quickie, "This won't hurt, did it ? "

206 SixDegrees  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:07:44pm

re: #172 albusteve

the chance of that story being true is zero...

I would tend to agree. It sounds like something passed around among high school freshmen.

207 Kragar  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:07:54pm

re: #199 imp_62

I actually consider anything longer than 10 minutes as interfering with Sports Center.

Watching other people play sports is a waste of time.

208 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:08:08pm

re: #162 bosforus

And this is exactly why Harry Potter books should be banned. Kids shouldn't be learning about sorcery, they should be learning how to avoid talking about sex. For all I know the Harry Potter books are probably teaching sex to our kids. Witch sex. Crazy witch sex.

Watch out for Veela.

209 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:08:50pm
210 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:09:20pm

re: #207 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Not if you have money on it. Then it is the same as CNBC, only with more commercials.

211 davinvalkri  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:09:33pm

re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote


I would argue very strongly that if someone (male or female) does not even know what a clitoris is, they are unlikely to have a particularly good sex life.

...uh-oh. Oh well, I don't particularly want a sex life anyway.

212 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:09:35pm

re: #188 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

2-3 Minutes? Can that be considered spousal abuse? I consider anything less than 20 minutes a quickie.

20min?...pffft...just thinking about another gear...triple orgasm on average

213 avanti  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:09:41pm

re: #196 Ben Hur

We were taught about PP when I was in highschool.

I recall having to go to 3-4 drug stores before finding one that would sell me condoms as a teenager. (but I'm old)

214 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:09:53pm

Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Mars)

That was funny.

215 bosforus  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:09:55pm

re: #208 Kosh's Shadow

Watch out for Veela.

Bob?

216 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:10:08pm

re: #151 Conservative Moonbat

I think it has to do with not following the predefined puritan gender rolls. Strong women were considered socially abnormal and thus were suspect.

I would like you to look (because it's easy) at the initial suspects in Salem Village in 1692.

None of the initial victims were "strong women," and their social abnormalities hadn't to do with defying their gender roles.

Now, there was, infamously, a case where a woman was hanged, and her pastor said, angrily, that she had been hanged for having more wit than her neighbors.

That would have been in 1680's.

217 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:10:17pm

re: #154 Shiplord Kirel

Actually, Ludwig, many of these people have very active, though tawdry, sex lives. Just look at Mark Sanford and the many others of his ilk, they are not aberrations. When all sex is sinful and shameful it is more difficult to distinguish right from wrong.
My first wife, aka Jezebel and Jabba the Slutt, was and still is a devout fundamentalist. She could not distinguish between sleeping with her husband and sleeping with her brother-in-law. Her excuse, presented in all seriousness for 30 years, is that she got married and found out she "had married the wrong brother."

Just to post it again in this thread
[Link: christiannymphos.org...]

218 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:10:49pm

re: #190 Killgore Trout

Sen. Graham takes jab at Glenn Beck: ‘Only in America can you make that much money crying.’ (more video)

Graham's looking better in my eyes. The Paulians hate Graham.

219 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:10:50pm

If Palin is Bible Spice, then Bachmann is Wingnut Spice.

220 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:10:57pm

I think the ultimate expert on witchcraft was Frank Sinatra.

Those fingers in my hair,
That sly come hither stare,
That strips my conscience bare,
Its witchcraft.

221 vetpox  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:11:07pm

I like this Spencer:
[Link: creativecoast.typepad.com...]

222 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:11:11pm

re: #209 buzzsawmonkey

Pancho?


No, from Harry Potter

In J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter series, the Veela are stunningly beautiful and magically captivating women who put men into a trance when singing or dancing and can turn into hideous bird-like creatures capable of throwing balls of fire when angered.


From this article

However, there is a crude joke I learned at summer camp when I was 8 about Pancho Villa; sometime, maybe in a late night thread, I'll post it.

223 zelnaga  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:11:30pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole "parents can't find out" thing a consequence of HIPPA (which was passed in 1996)? To my knowledge, Obama's health care plan doesn't address privacy (since existing laws do that).

224 Mark Pennington  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:11:36pm

She maintains a straight face every time she says such foolish things...and that scares me. My girlfriend calls her "the lady with the crazy eyes"

225 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:11:45pm

re: #184 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh I am sure she knew she had a vagina. She just didn't know what it was for, and the pain of unlubricated anal sex fit in with her expectations of wifehood.

A woman is giving birth and start screaming and cursing at her husband.

"How could you do this to me!?!?!?" etc etc about the pain.

He said, "Hey, I just wanted a little anal sex, but nooo, you said that would hurt too much!"

/sorry.

226 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:11:54pm

re: #218 Thanos

Wow. Upding Graham.

227 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:12:02pm

re: #195 reine.de.tout

No, shooting him was not.
She is not running on all cylinders, and I do not say that to excuse her.
But to use her as an example of how religious conservatives view sex, as you seemed to be doing, was what I found to be really odd.

I'm not just using HER as an example how conservatives view sex, but the jury and the town who came to her defense as that "poor abused woman". From what I read, there was very little evidence for that so-called abuse. And holding up a pair of white pumps in the courtroom to prove how tawdry he was was ridiculous.

THE JURY BOUGHT IT. The town bought it. They thought she was as pure as the driven snow. That's my point. Nice little churchy wife. Nice little MURDEROUS churchy wife. Bah!

228 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:12:13pm

re: #208 Kosh's Shadow

Watch out for Veela.

Is that short for Velveeta?

229 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:12:39pm

re: #225 Ben Hur

A woman is giving birth and start screaming and cursing at her husband.

"How could you do this to me!?!?!?" etc etc about the pain.

He said, "Hey, I just wanted a little anal sex, but nooo, you said that would hurt too much!"

/sorry.

Officially, I am not allowed to laugh at that... Alas... Damn you Buzzy!

230 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:13:03pm

re: #218 Thanos

It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. So far the right wing blogs are ignoring it. Are they going to be pissed? The Tea Party crowd certainly isn't going to get behind making Obama's job easier. Are they going to turn on Graham like they did LGF?

231 avanti  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:13:03pm

re: #223 zelnaga

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole "parents can't find out" thing a consequence of HIPPA (which was passed in 1996)? To my knowledge, Obama's health care plan doesn't address privacy (since existing laws do that).

It merely mentions HIPPA and other laws must be followed under the plan.

232 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:13:52pm

re: #206 SixDegrees

I would tend to agree. It sounds like something passed around among high school freshmen.

exactly...I think someone got pwnd

233 Canadian Guy  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:13:53pm

re: #230 Killgore Trout

they've turned on him a long time ago.

234 WaveriderCA  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:13:55pm

I'd like to take the time to recognize the efforts middle school and high school teachers take above and beyond to give their underage pupils a hands on lesson in sex education. Providing for the children what the states (or an underage drinking party) can't or won't.

235 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:14:17pm

i'll bbl

236 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:14:34pm

re: #225 Ben Hur

Reminds me of the old joke about the young American woman who marries a Greek man. I would post it here, but it might be offensive to some.

237 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:14:55pm

re: #234 WaveriderCA

I'd like to take the time to recognize the efforts middle school and high school teachers take above and beyond to give their underage pupils a hands on lesson in sex education. Providing for the children what the states (or an underage drinking party) can't or won't.

LOL @ "hands on lesson". Evenif you did not mean it that way. Did you?

238 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:15:59pm
239 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:16:06pm

re: #233 Canadian Guy

Did they? Does he still have influence?

240 Stormy  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:16:25pm

re: #59 Conservative Moonbat

FWIW Tinklenberg is running against her again. Anyone inclined to get get this national embarrassment out of office can donate:

[Link: www.tinklenberg2010.com...]

Tinklenberg (I love the picture on his website in front of the boondoggle that is the commuter rail in MN) is no better, not to mention that his website (the one you linked to) starts off by saying, "I am announcing that as of today I am terminating my campaign for Congress..."

Just sayin'

241 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:17:05pm

Here's the source of the Graham clips...
Graham: The Loyal Opposition

I wish they'd post the whole event. I'd really like to see it.

242 Canadian Guy  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:17:09pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

His influence is largely based on his proximity to McCain, was it not?

243 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:17:09pm

re: #200 SixDegrees

Maybe you should, you know, take the time to actually read the articles you're posting in support of your statements. The blue linky thing by itself doesn't lend any credence - even less so now.

Why are you giving me shit.

OK so they don't want mandatory vaccinations for something that causes cancer because they think it will encourage promiscuity. That was in the article too.

Would you mind explaining how that contradicts anything I said? Also, would you mind just trying to remember the news from a few years ago? You are very smart and you surely must remember this. This was all over the place. It is well documented.

Tell you what, if you really doubt me, go and look for links yourself. Please do, you will find I am telling the truth. I really don't see why you need to troll me.

244 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:17:13pm
245 WaveriderCA  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:17:32pm

re: #237 imp_62

It was a joke (a crudely crafted one at that too)

246 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:17:49pm

re: #227 marjoriemoon

I'm not just using HER as an example how conservatives view sex, but the jury and the town who came to her defense as that "poor abused woman". From what I read, there was very little evidence for that so-called abuse. And holding up a pair of white pumps in the courtroom to prove how tawdry he was was ridiculous.

THE JURY BOUGHT IT. The town bought it. They thought she was as pure as the driven snow. That's my point. Nice little churchy wife. Nice little MURDEROUS churchy wife. Bah!

There was a whole lot more to the story.

247 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:18:49pm

re: #242 Canadian Guy

His influence is largely based on his proximity to McCain, was it not?

Hmmm, I don't really know.

248 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:18:56pm

re: #175 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, I admit that is an extreme case, but if you come up in a culture where you just never talk about it, and you can't talk about it, and it is sinful to want it - and particularly sinful for a woman to want it, how good is it likely to be on average.

Women are a bit more complicated then men sexually. If he has no clue, and she can not talk about it, how good can it be for her?

I think...that the plural of anecdote is not data, but gossip. I think...that you are responding to something you've encountered, somewhere, a generalizing to an extent I find eye-brow raising.

Honestly, I don't care for this broad-brush approach. I've met many religious women who quite clearly enjoyed contact with their husbands. I do not presume to tell you that they're having great sex, but they certainly seemed happy.

249 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:18:56pm

re: #236 Mad Al-Jaffee

Reminds me of the old joke about the young American woman who marries a Greek man. I would post it here, but it might be offensive to some.

Go for it.

I'm not Greek.

250 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:20:22pm

The Salme witch trial hypothesis I really wish we could test is the one that they were burning the wrong type of moss in their fireplaces, and hallucinating.

251 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:21:08pm

re: #250 EmmmieG

The Salme witch trial hypothesis I really wish we could test is the one that they were burning the wrong type of moss in their fireplaces, and hallucinating.

I'm game.

252 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:21:15pm

Has anybody else seen the trailer for Moore's new film where he is staring at the moving stock ticker? My BP goes up 10 points and I want to push him off a subway platform.

253 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:21:49pm

re: #184 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh I am sure she knew she had a vagina. She just didn't know what it was for, and the pain of unlubricated anal sex fit in with her expectations of wifehood.

I am having an extremely hard time believing that.

254 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:22:07pm
255 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:22:18pm

re: #240 Stormy

Tinklenberg (I love the picture on his website in front of the boondoggle that is the commuter rail in MN) is no better, not to mention that his website (the one you linked to) starts off by saying, "I am announcing that as of today I am terminating my campaign for Congress..."

Just sayin'

Heh. Somebody was pimping his campaign on Kos just a month or so ago. I guess he doesn't think he can win the primary.

256 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:22:40pm

Orly Taitz is Nirthy Spice.

257 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:22:44pm

re: #241 Killgore Trout

Here's the source of the Graham clips...
Graham: The Loyal Opposition

I wish they'd post the whole event. I'd really like to see it.

Good for Graham. But the problems with the GOP go much, much deeper than Glenn Beck and the Birthers. And even if Beck were carted off to the rubber room tomorrow, and all the Birthers just shut up on their own, those systemic problems would remain.

Beck and the Nirthers are just symptoms of the takeover of the GOP by far right religious fanatics.

258 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:22:57pm

re: #252 imp_62

Has anybody else seen the trailer for Moore's new film where he is staring at the moving stock ticker? My BP goes up 10 points and I want to push him off a subway platform.

Only 10 points? You might wanna' skip this article then:

Millionaire Filmmaker Michael Moore: ‘Capitalism Did Nothing For Me’

:-)

259 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:23:03pm

re: #252 imp_62

Charles really doesn't like remarks about doing violence to some one. Just a nice reminder.

(from above)

"Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal."

260 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:23:12pm

re: #257 Charles

Agreed.

261 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:23:17pm

re: #158 negativ

Believe it or not, there are plenty of circumstances other than rape/incest under which involving parents against the will of the girl is an extremely morally reprehensible course of action.

I think it's significant that none of your examples involve right-wing Evangelical Christians.

262 Stormy  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:23:51pm

re: #223 zelnaga

HIPPA

Not to nitpick, but it is HIPAA (spent several years dealing with HIPAA compliance writing medical software...)

And here's some more info on HIPAA and minors.

263 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:24:34pm

re: #258 subsailor68

Only 10 points? You might wanna' skip this article then:

Millionaire Filmmaker Michael Moore: ‘Capitalism Did Nothing For Me’

:-)

I guess it wouldn't bother him then, that the only movie of his that I ever watched was obtained at the Moscow "pirate mall" and he received no royalties.

264 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:24:43pm

re: #253 Dianna

I am having an extremely hard time believing that.

or if it's true that it's indicative of right wing religious extremists...Ludwig is sailing off into never land

265 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:24:53pm

re: #262 Stormy

Not to nitpick, but it is HIPAA (spent several years dealing with HIPAA compliance writing medical software...)

And here's some more info on HIPAA and minors.

Yes it is, I've done a lot of medical software development too.

266 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:25:00pm

re: #259 Walter L. Newton

Charles really doesn't like remarks about doing violence to some one. Just a nice reminder.

(from above)

"Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal."

Thanks - not advocating by any stretch, though. Just giving vent to my frustration. Plus, based on some of the comments in this thread, violence and sex are not that far apart.

267 avanti  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:25:00pm

re: #249 Ben Hur

Go for it.

I'm not Greek.

I'm Greek, know the joke and don't mind. (Not that I can relate) :)

268 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:25:08pm

re: #263 Alouette

I guess it wouldn't bother him then, that the only movie of his that I ever watched was obtained at the Moscow "pirate mall" and he received no royalties.

STEAL THIS MOVIE!

269 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:25:19pm

Beck flounce!

270 Racer X  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:25:23pm

re: #258 subsailor68

Only 10 points? You might wanna' skip this article then:

Millionaire Filmmaker Michael Moore: ‘Capitalism Did Nothing For Me’

:-)

How did he get that fat?

271 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:25:26pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

The Pink Flamingo blog, which linked to LGF and Kejda concerning RS McCain, has a number of references/articles on how the extreme has pushed Graham to the sidelines for being a RINO.

272 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:25:59pm

Prez on TV. Talking about Iran. Non-Proliferation, etc.

273 Irving  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:26:14pm

re: #162 bosforus

My wife has expressed a passing interest in Wicca. I must express interest in this "crazy witch sex" concept, which in and of itself sounds like a pretty fair reason to have a change of religion. Sign me up for your newsletter on the subject, please... or better yet, sign me and her up.

274 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:26:22pm

re: #249 Ben Hur

Go for it.

I'm not Greek.

A virgin marries a man from Athens, and before the Wedding her father gives her a warning. "Because your husband is Greek, he may ask you to turn the other way in bed," he cautions. "But remember, my dear--- you dont have to if you dont want to."

On their honeymoon, the couple are having sex when the husband asks his new wife to turn over.

"No," she refuses." I don't have to do this."

"Ok," he replies. "But you're the one who wants children."

275 davinvalkri  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:26:29pm

re: #257 Charles

Good for Graham. But the problems with the GOP go much, much deeper than Glenn Beck and the Birthers. And even if Beck were carted off to the rubber room tomorrow, and all the Birthers just shut up on their own, those systemic problems would remain.

Beck and the Nirthers are just symptoms of the takeover of the GOP by far right religious fanatics.

Goldwater fan? Yay!

re: #258 subsailor68

Only 10 points? You might wanna' skip this article then:

Millionaire Filmmaker Michael Moore: ‘Capitalism Did Nothing For Me’

:-)

Then I guess he won't mind if we pirate and torrent all of his movies on the internet, will he?

276 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:26:41pm

re: #259 Walter L. Newton

Charles really doesn't like remarks about doing violence to some one. Just a nice reminder.

(from above)

"Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal."

[Link: funmeme.com...]

/

277 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:27:11pm

re: #115 MandyManners

OK fine, some more links on this story.

[Link: money.cnn.com...]
[Link: www.now.org...]
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Now, I am still looking for the links for it, but behind the scene, Bush appointees at the FDA did everything they could to delay the release of the vaccine.

278 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:28:41pm

re: #270 Racer X

How did he get that fat?

the result of deep rooted insecurities and guilt with regard to his monumental rip off of the truth...he's trying to eat his way to redemption

279 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:28:51pm

The Flounce-o-meter is reading "Imminent" in the Spencer thread too.

280 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:29:01pm

re: #277 LudwigVanQuixote

OK fine, some more links on this story.

[Link: money.cnn.com...]
[Link: www.now.org...]
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Now, I am still looking for the links for it, but behind the scene, Bush appointees at the FDA did everything they could to delay the release of the vaccine.

Thank you.

281 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:29:29pm

re: #278 albusteve

the result of deep rooted insecurities and guilt with regard to his monumental rip off of the truth...he's trying to eat his way to redemption

I think he ate redemption, too.

282 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:29:51pm

re: #271 Sharmuta

The Pink Flamingo blog, which linked to LGF and Kejda concerning RS McCain, has a number of references/articles on how the extreme has pushed Graham to the sidelines for being a RINO.

Is that a blog for John Waters fans? :)

283 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:30:34pm

The US Right Loses It

There is an article by Thomas Friedman in the New York Times in which he compared the bellicose and even insurrectionist atmosphere created by the mainstream Israeli Right towards Rabin, with the viciousness directed at Obama by the mainstream US Right. As we all know, Rabin was slaughtered by an Israeli extremist.

Friedman’s thesis has a certain resonance, in the light of an article by Newsmax columnist, John Perry, published and then quickly pulled a few days ago. Newsmax is a pretty mainstream conservative site, whose contributors have an impressive pedigree on the US centre-right, as far as I can see. Perry himself is described as a “a prize-winning newspaper editor and writer who served on White House staffs of two presidents”.

Although Newsmax has now pulled the piece, Media Matters and Little Green Footballs have dragged it out of the Google cache and republished it. You should read it all - but here is Perry’s conclusion:

continued :

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

284 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:30:35pm

re: #270 Racer X

How did he get that fat?

His idea of sharing the wealth is taking other peoples lunches. Lots of them. Every day.

285 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:31:17pm

re: #264 albusteve

or if it's true that it's indicative of right wing religious extremists...Ludwig is sailing off into never land

Not necessarily.

286 avanti  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:31:17pm

re: #273 Irving

My wife has expressed a passing interest in Wicca. I must express interest in this "crazy witch sex" concept, which in and of itself sounds like a pretty fair reason to have a change of religion. Sign me up for your newsletter on the subject, please... or better yet, sign me and her up.

Just more open about sex, nothing really crazy.

Pagans/Wicca.

287 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:31:47pm

re: #284 CyanSnowHawk

His idea of sharing the wealth is taking other peoples lunches. Lots of them. Every day.

And, tragically, Moore's favorite pizza place is called Chucky Chavez.

288 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:31:49pm

re: #230 Killgore Trout

It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. So far the right wing blogs are ignoring it. Are they going to be pissed? The Tea Party crowd certainly isn't going to get behind making Obama's job easier. Are they going to turn on Graham like they did LGF?

They turned on Graham way back in 05 during the comprehensive immigration reform debate. The Nativists sided hard against him and McCain. We could have potentially won last election without all of the bitters and bile from that in McCain's background. Now we get to watch comprehensive immigration reform passed in the next year or so without any control or influence.

289 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:32:10pm

re: #283 Jimmah

It's interesting to read the comments. Most people there have a decent understanding of American politics.

290 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:32:26pm

re: #277 LudwigVanQuixote

OK fine, some more links on this story.

[Link: money.cnn.com...]
[Link: www.now.org...]
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Now, I am still looking for the links for it, but behind the scene, Bush appointees at the FDA did everything they could to delay the release of the vaccine.

After a quick perusal, I find people not wanting it to be given to their minors children.

291 shutdown  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:33:49pm

Home Depot run. Gutters need some work - bbl.

292 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:34:36pm

re: #248 Dianna

I think...that the plural of anecdote is not data, but gossip. I think...that you are responding to something you've encountered, somewhere, a generalizing to an extent I find eye-brow raising.

Honestly, I don't care for this broad-brush approach. I've met many religious women who quite clearly enjoyed contact with their husbands. I do not presume to tell you that they're having great sex, but they certainly seemed happy.

There is absolutely no broad brush, in the extent of being too broad brushed that it is false, to say that women's sexual response is normally a bit more complicated than a man's. Given this, there is no broad brush to say that for women to have enjoyable sex lives, they need to be able to know what they like and communicate that to their partners - and he needs to be able to listen.

Therefore, if one comes from a culture where it is impossible to discuss these things, it is unlikely that sex will have all that many fireworks for her. This is common sense for any non-virgin.

Why is the old line of advise to new brides from Victorian England "Lie back and think of England?" Hmmm? Where did this come from, and why would it become popular?

I did not say that most marriages on the far right were unhappy. I said that it is likely they frequently do not have the best sex lives because they have a great deal of ignorance about how sexuality works, and they do not talk about it, and women in particular think it is something that they can not talk about. There is more to marriage than sex however, they may still be happy.

I get very tired of people refusing to hear the obvious and then saying that I paint with a broad brush just because they do not wish to look at common sense.

293 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:34:41pm

re: #288 Thanos

Yeah, I was just brushing up on Graham's history. He's pretty much unpopular with what's going on these days. It looks like nobody will pay attention to him now but he's positioning himself pretty well for when this craziness blows over. The GOP is going to desperately need politicians who distanced themselves from this stupidity.

294 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:34:48pm
295 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:34:51pm

This is for Kirk Cameron's pipe so he can smoke it.

Earliest known ape/humanoid skeleton put together.

296 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:34:53pm

re: #227 marjoriemoon

I'm not just using HER as an example how conservatives view sex, but the jury and the town who came to her defense as that "poor abused woman". From what I read, there was very little evidence for that so-called abuse. And holding up a pair of white pumps in the courtroom to prove how tawdry he was was ridiculous.

THE JURY BOUGHT IT. The town bought it. They thought she was as pure as the driven snow. That's my point. Nice little churchy wife. Nice little MURDEROUS churchy wife. Bah!

Ah. I see.

Well, I wasn't on the jury, and only read what was reported. And from having sat on a jury, I know that the point of view of the reporter is not necessarily the same as what actually happens in a courtroom.

It sounds like your issue is more with a conservative jury, than with her.

297 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:35:31pm

re: #101 Ben Hur

Always be nice to the man in the boat!!

This is just dying for a Hemmingway pun

298 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:36:45pm

re: #290 MandyManners

After a quick perusal, I find people not wanting it to be given to their minors children.

That became the public talking point on the hill - and it is a stupid point at that, it's like saying you don't want you kids to have a mumps shot.

However, the line from the so called "family" organizations were all about not wanting to encourage promiscuity, and there was more than one sermon about blocking G-d's punishment for sinful women.

299 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:37:19pm

Aw, jeebus...

300 centaur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:38:07pm

re: #297 Creeping Eruption

A clean, white room.

Hope I got that right.

301 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:38:09pm

re: #292 LudwigVanQuixote

[snip]
Why is the old line of advise to new brides from Victorian England "Lie back and think of England?" Hmmm? Where did this come from, and why would it become popular?
[snip]

And this bit of Victorian history, Victorian history that deals with another country no less, how is this germane to the current topic?

302 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:38:21pm

re: #292 LudwigVanQuixote

There is absolutely no broad brush, in the extent of being too broad brushed that it is false, to say that women's sexual response is normally a bit more complicated than a man's. Given this, there is no broad brush to say that for women to have enjoyable sex lives, they need to be able to know what they like and communicate that to their partners - and he needs to be able to listen.

Therefore, if one comes from a culture where it is impossible to discuss these things, it is unlikely that sex will have all that many fireworks for her. This is common sense for any non-virgin.

Why is the old line of advise to new brides from Victorian England "Lie back and think of England?" Hmmm? Where did this come from, and why would it become popular?

I did not say that most marriages on the far right were unhappy. I said that it is likely they frequently do not have the best sex lives because they have a great deal of ignorance about how sexuality works, and they do not talk about it, and women in particular think it is something that they can not talk about. There is more to marriage than sex however, they may still be happy.

I get very tired of people refusing to hear the obvious and then saying that I paint with a broad brush just because they do not wish to look at common sense.

Broad brush regarding religion and sex.

I'm female. I think I know just a tiny bit about women's sexual responses, and so on.

As to what goes into a happy marriage - I think I shall defer to the many happily married religious and non-religious women on this board.

Now, I am due for a business lunch.

303 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:38:22pm

re: #297 Creeping Eruption

This is just dying for a Hemmingway pun

looking for the Old Man near the C?

304 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:38:40pm

re: #295 BigPapa

This is for Kirk Cameron's pipe so he can smoke it.

Earliest known ape/humanoid skeleton put together.

Maybe he should try smoking some banana peels.

305 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:40:00pm

re: #298 LudwigVanQuixote

That became the public talking point on the hill - and it is a stupid point at that, it's like saying you don't want you kids to have a mumps shot.

However, the line from the so called "family" organizations were all about not wanting to encourage promiscuity, and there was more than one sermon about blocking G-d's punishment for sinful women.

I'm still trying to find an article that describes how the Bush administration use some actual political maneuvering to stop this? I've Googled a lot of articles myself and can't find a reference that supports what you originally said up thread?

306 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:40:06pm

I loved Hemingway's book on giving up masturbation while he was living in Cuba: "A Farewell to Palms".

307 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:41:17pm
308 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:41:18pm

re: #306 subsailor68

I loved Hemingway's book on giving up masturbation while he was living in Cuba: "A Farewell to Palms".

remember 'the Old Man and the Seaman'?

309 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:41:26pm

re: #296 reine.de.tout

Ah. I see.

Well, I wasn't on the jury, and only read what was reported. And from having sat on a jury, I know that the point of view of the reporter is not necessarily the same as what actually happens in a courtroom.

It sounds like your issue is more with a conservative jury, than with her.

A conservative jury would've put her butt in jail.

There was quite a bit of testimony about his abusing the kids, the infant, too. He didn't like a crying baby. And, there were some things of a sexual nature that "family" papers would not publish.

310 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:42:27pm

re: #307 buzzsawmonkey

Not to mention his book on prostitutes and their customers, "For Whom the Belle Trolls."

LOL! I bow to the master!

311 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:42:28pm

re: #298 LudwigVanQuixote

That became the public talking point on the hill - and it is a stupid point at that, it's like saying you don't want you kids to have a mumps shot.

However, the line from the so called "family" organizations were all about not wanting to encourage promiscuity, and there was more than one sermon about blocking G-d's punishment for sinful women.

I found nothing about trying to force ADULT women to not have the shot.

312 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:42:37pm

re: #309 MandyManners

A conservative jury would've put her butt in jail.

There was quite a bit of testimony about his abusing the kids, the infant, too. He didn't like a crying baby. And, there were some things of a sexual nature that "family" papers would not publish.

You are correct!
I think marjoriemoon thinks differently, though.

313 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:43:20pm

re: #298 LudwigVanQuixote

That became the public talking point on the hill - and it is a stupid point at that, it's like saying you don't want you kids to have a mumps shot.

However, the line from the so called "family" organizations were all about not wanting to encourage promiscuity, and there was more than one sermon about blocking G-d's punishment for sinful women.

There were also the usual talking points from DFHs on the left about how how mandatory vaccinations are just subsidies for big pharma.

314 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:43:39pm

re: #301 Walter L. Newton

And this bit of Victorian history, Victorian history that deals with another country no less, how is this germane to the current topic?

Well you see Walter, Victorian England had a great deal of sexual repression. Due to the things I have been talking about in terms of communication between partners about sexual matters and general knowledge of sex over-all, there were a lot of very unhappy brides. This was so common that they had a joke about lying back and thinking of England.

I hope that was reduced to bite sized enough bits for you.

315 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:43:51pm

re: #305 Walter L. Newton

I'm still trying to find an article that describes how the Bush administration use some actual political maneuvering to stop this? I've Googled a lot of articles myself and can't find a reference that supports what you originally said up thread?

See his NO. 277.

I've found nothing about trying to keep adult women from having the shot.

316 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:44:40pm

re: #312 reine.de.tout

You are correct!
I think marjoriemoon thinks differently, though.

I think the Commerical Appeal in Memphis has the articles archived.

317 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:45:17pm

re: #311 MandyManners

I found nothing about trying to force ADULT women to not have the shot.

I said that under the Bush administration, bush appointees tried very hard to delay the release of the vaccine through the FDA.

I am still looking for links to that for you.

I also said that there was a giant uproar on the right about the vaccine in general. Further, what bloody difference does the age of the girl make?

318 Pianobuff  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:45:22pm

Is this thread-appropriate?...and does anybody remember this classic?

319 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:45:24pm

re: #314 LudwigVanQuixote

Well you see Walter, Victorian England had a great deal of sexual repression. Due to the things I have been talking about in terms of communication between partners about sexual matters and general knowledge of sex over-all, there were a lot of very unhappy brides. This was so common that they had a joke about lying back and thinking of England.

I hope that was reduced to bite sized enough bits for you.

Nope, wew are talking about MODERN sex, MODERN mores about sex and MODERN fears, moral, concerns and misconceptions.

But thanks for the historical trivia. It did work as a nice diversion for a few minutes.

320 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:45:38pm

re: #297 Creeping Eruption

This is just dying for a Hemmingway pun

Dying for a pun? Death in the afternoon?

321 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:45:41pm

re: #314 LudwigVanQuixote

Well you see Walter, Victorian England had a great deal of sexual repression. Due to the things I have been talking about in terms of communication between partners about sexual matters and general knowledge of sex over-all, there were a lot of very unhappy brides. This was so common that they had a joke about lying back and thinking of England.

I hope that was reduced to bite sized enough bits for you.

And, Freud thought that clitoral orgasms were immature and somehow indicative of penis envy.

322 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:46:23pm

re: #319 Walter L. Newton

Nope, wew are talking about MODERN sex, MODERN mores about sex and MODERN fears, moral, concerns and misconceptions.

But thanks for the historical trivia. It did work as a nice diversion for a few minutes.

Yes and the Far Christian right shares many of those Victorian mores and outlooks. As to modern sex,, well, it really hasn't changed much in the last 50,000 years.

323 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:46:42pm

re: #317 LudwigVanQuixote

We'll have to agree to disagree.

324 vxbush  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:46:53pm

re: #314 LudwigVanQuixote

Well you see Walter, Victorian England had a great deal of sexual repression. Due to the things I have been talking about in terms of communication between partners about sexual matters and general knowledge of sex over-all, there were a lot of very unhappy brides. This was so common that they had a joke about lying back and thinking of England.

I hope that was reduced to bite sized enough bits for you.

You should know that in Christian bookstores there are numerous books that explain how to have great sex and why great sex is perfectly fine. The LaHayes had a book that came out in the early 90's, if I recall correctly. While your information may be true for some religious groups, it is not necessarily true of all of them.

325 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:47:10pm

re: #321 MandyManners

And, Freud thought that clitoral orgasms were immature and somehow indicative of penis envy.

Like I said above, I have no idea why LVQ would include a bit of historical trivia about Victorian England when we are discussing the topic of MODERN day sex. But it was amusing, in the least.

326 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:47:31pm

re: #321 MandyManners

And, Freud thought that clitoral orgasms were immature and somehow indicative of penis envy.

Yes and the Far Christian right shares many of those Victorian mores and outlooks. It also shares a similar level of ignorance... I mean Tinky Winky was gay right?

327 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:47:53pm

re: #324 vxbush

You should know that in Christian bookstores there are numerous books that explain how to have great sex and why great sex is perfectly fine. The LaHayes had a book that came out in the early 90's, if I recall correctly. While your information may be true for some religious groups, it is not necessarily true of all of them.

Why should he know that? He does know a lot about Victorian England and sex.

328 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:48:23pm

re: #322 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes and the Far Christian right shares many of those Victorian mores and outlooks. As to modern sex,, well, it really hasn't changed much in the last 50,000 years.

is there a pole to substantiate this claim?

329 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:48:28pm

re: #323 MandyManners

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I will have to find you the proper links to it. There was a very large uproar in the medical community about it - the FDA part. I am not making this up.

330 vxbush  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:48:56pm

re: #327 Walter L. Newton

Why should he know that? He does know a lot about Victorian England and sex.

Hey, just throwing it out there. You know, in the spirit of information.

331 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:49:00pm

re: #326 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes and the Far Christian right shares many of those Victorian mores and outlooks. It also shares a similar level of ignorance... I mean Tinky Winky was gay right?

It's wrong to believe that sex is best kept within the confines of marriage?

332 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:49:01pm

re: #23 bofhell

333 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:49:08pm

re: #328 albusteve

is there a pole to substantiate this claim?

Well you could start by listening to what the preachers say about it. It might be a start.

334 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:49:39pm

I'm about to get really pissed off so it's best that I log off now.

335 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:49:48pm

re: #328 albusteve

is there a pole to substantiate this claim?

Of course not. LVQ needs to start hanging around with some of the christians I use to hang with. Sex, it was a sacrement.

336 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:50:05pm

re: #321 MandyManners

And, Freud thought that clitoral orgasms were immature and somehow indicative of penis envy.

Speaking of which, did you know that a woman's history of vaginal orgasm is discernible through her walk?

sorry, random thought association

337 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:50:26pm

re: #333 LudwigVanQuixote

Well you could start by listening to what the preachers say about it. It might be a start.

it was a pun, otherwise I really don't care

338 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:50:34pm

Okay, with all this talk about sex, I can't resist:

An 80 year old man goes to the doctor and asks for Viagra.
The doctor, impressed, explains how to take the pill.
The old man says, "well, I don't need the whole pill, I'll be cutting it into quarters."
The doctor tells him that it won't be nearly effective that way, and that he'll have to take the whole pill before having sex.
The old man says, "Sex? Who said anything about sex? I'm just tired of peeing on my shoes."

339 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:52:00pm

re: #331 MandyManners

It's wrong to believe that sex is best kept within the confines of marriage?

No of course not, and that is not the only thing that the far right says about it, and you know it Mandy. It is wrong to make it into something so sinful that you can not talk about it except to condemn it and wrong to spread ignorance about how it works, or promote ignorance about it.

I mean, the very fact that they think Just say no, is a real answer to teenage sex issues gives a strong hint of how out of touch with reality they are. Most people will realize that most teens are going to do it, no matter what you tell them. So just say no, is not going to replace protection or birth control.

340 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:52:02pm

re: #289 Killgore Trout

It's interesting to read the comments. Most people there have a decent understanding of American politics.

Yes - although there are a few rabid Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin fans on the loose from time to time.

341 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:52:16pm

Minnesota voters have a wicked sense of humor. First Jesse Ventura, then Michele "Back Back Back" Bachmann, then Keith X, then Al Franken.

Hubert Humphrey must be up in heaven scratching his head over these elected officials from his beloved Minnesota.

342 avanti  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:53:28pm

My casino host managed to book me and the wife into a high roller weekend with a Seinfeld show and backstage passes and a lot of amenities. Appearently, he had a whale cancel late and I was willing to fill in on short notice, so I'll be having a beer with Jerry and a bunch of rich dudes, too cool.
I'm off, but taking the lap top to keep up with my business and watch the Lizards. Play nice.

343 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:53:32pm

re: #339 LudwigVanQuixote

Just for information's sake, I've been out trolling Christian bookstore websites. You can find multiple books about sex at every site. Of course, they're all about Improving Intimacy Within Marriage."

344 MJ  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:53:47pm

Gay penguins book is most banned

...In recent years, And Tango Makes Three - based on a true story and centring on gay penguins in New York's Central Park Zoo - has had the most ban requests...

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

This is interesting too:

Earlier this week, it was claimed that Harry Potter author JK Rowling missed out on the Presidential Medal of Freedom because some US politicians believed she "encouraged witchcraft".

So, instead, they gave it to two antisemites.

345 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:53:58pm

re: #335 Walter L. Newton

Of course not. LVQ needs to start hanging around with some of the christians I use to hang with. Sex, it was a sacrement.

They sound like great folks. Look, I am talking about the far Christian right here. The Dobson types, the Robertson types and the Falwell types. You know full well who I am referring to. You also know full well how crazy they are on these issues.

Why is making simple common sense observations based on the facts of who these people are and what they preach so difficult for you to accept?

346 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:54:03pm

re: #23 bofhell

/sarcasm Roman Polanski I presume will run the program from France.

Although on a serious note, the Government of France has dropped their public support for Polanski, stating no one is above or below the law. [dg -- what does it mean to be below the law anyhow?]

Sorry, my reply went missing. I was wondering about being below the law. It must be a French construction for somebody who is such a complete and total smeghead that the law doesn't apply to that person. Presumably their behaviour is too awful to be proscribed by any existing or future laws...this makes no sense, but it's a French invention.

347 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:55:22pm

re: #343 EmmmieG

Just for information's sake, I've been out trolling Christian bookstore websites. You can find multiple books about sex at every site. Of course, they're all about Improving Intimacy Within Marriage."

And I do not debate that those exist. My comment was, and continues to be, that there are many on the very far right who do not talk about these things and can not talk about these things.

The very existence of those books indicates a need for information in that community that they are not getting elsewhere.

348 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:55:29pm

I've posted links to the christian nymphos site a couple of times. It's a blog where christian women talk about bible verses and how to please their husbands with anal beads.

349 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:56:01pm
350 StillAMarine  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:56:04pm

Sheesh! Sex aside, idiots like Michelle B. are going to cost us the conservative majority in Congress in 2010, and the presidency in 2012.

Obviously the nutroot right exists, just as does the nutroot left, but the right seems to be getting all the press. Gee, could there be a little bias in the Fourth Estate?

351 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:56:22pm
352 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:56:45pm

re: #336 Conservative Moonbat

Speaking of which, did you know that a woman's history of vaginal orgasm is discernible through her walk?

sorry, random thought association

OK, I know you're the right person to answer this question that's been bugging me for ages. Why do adverts for cialis (or is it viagra?) end with a couple sitting in separate and empty bath tubs in the most unlikely locations, away from any obvious plumbing?

353 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:56:59pm

re: #328 albusteve

is there a pole to substantiate this claim?

Yes.

354 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:57:27pm

re: #345 LudwigVanQuixote

They sound like great folks. Look, I am talking about the far Christian right here. The Dobson types, the Robertson types and the Falwell types. You know full well who I am referring to. You also know full well how crazy they are on these issues.

Why is making simple common sense observations based on the facts of who these people are and what they preach so difficult for you to accept?

I got it the first time...after 47 times I got bored and reverted to joking about it

355 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:57:31pm

re: #351 Killgore Trout

Richard Dawkins on The Colbert Report (video)

How'd you know I was just fixin' to post that?

Unfortunately Colbert doesn't let Dawkins say much. Still pretty funny though.

356 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:57:33pm

re: #326 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes and the Far Christian right shares many of those Victorian mores and outlooks. It also shares a similar level of ignorance... I mean Tinky Winky was gay right?

What's all this about Victorian attitudes to sex...

357 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:58:10pm

re: #355 Charles

How'd you know I was just fixin' to post that?

Unfortunately Colbert doesn't let Dawkins say much. Still pretty funny though.

How did he know? LOL

///

358 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:58:19pm

re: #345 LudwigVanQuixote

They sound like great folks. Look, I am talking about the far Christian right here. The Dobson types, the Robertson types and the Falwell types. You know full well who I am referring to. You also know full well how crazy they are on these issues.

Why is making simple common sense observations based on the facts of who these people are and what they preach so difficult for you to accept?

Because, you are not an expert on everything. And what you hear the Dobson types, the Robertson types and the Falwell types saying is only one side of the story. You have no idea what goes on in the bedroom, or barroom, or hot tube or swingers club in a Christians life (or any other "religious" person).

You are making, in the most, anecdotal statement, without any proof available.

Your statement above (all your statement) would never pass peer review. Very unscientific in my opinion. Not even good debating tactics.

359 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:58:59pm

re: #353 Ben Hur

Yes.

heh, finally...

360 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:59:07pm

re: #352 John Neverbend

OK, I know you're the right person to answer this question that's been bugging me for ages. Why do adverts for cialis (or is it viagra?) end with a couple sitting in separate and empty bath tubs in the most unlikely locations, away from any obvious plumbing?

No clue, sorry.

361 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:59:36pm

re: #355 Charles

It's pretty good.

362 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:59:40pm

re: #354 albusteve

I got it the first time...after 47 times I got bored and reverted to joking about it

Since most of his statement are simply anecdotal with out any facts, I got tired around the 10 time.

Any one else?

363 avanti  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 12:59:49pm

re: #331 MandyManners

It's wrong to believe that sex is best kept within the confines of marriage?

Nope, nor is it wrong if it works a different way for consenting couples. It's the lying and dishonesty that's always wrong. Most faiths have it right, monogamy in marriage is a simpler path for 95% of couples.
I'm lucky in my marriage, different sex friends are not a issue, sleeping with them would be.

364 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:00:17pm

BBL.

365 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:00:26pm

Tough crowd.

366 Interested and concerned CDN  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:01:15pm

Anyone else sick of the politics of fear played by both sides? Make no mistake that Michele used a "13 year old" to suck some of the creepy Polanski vibe?

I'm not a fan of PP, in general, but this kind of over the top nonsense is really getting tiresome...

367 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:01:17pm

re: #347 LudwigVanQuixote

And I do not debate that those exist. My comment was, and continues to be, that there are many on the very far right who do not talk about these things and can not talk about these things.

The very existence of those books indicates a need for information in that community that they are not getting elsewhere.

The other options being: My mother. I. Don't. Think. So. She taught me the birds and the bees, but I think we would have died from embarrassment to discuss the nuts and bolts of sex. Furthermore, someone writing a book is probably more accurate.

A doctor. Too expensive. She (the doctor) is better off writing a book and selling it for less than a doctor's visit.

College roommates. Let's go back to accuracy. Better off hearing it from an expert.

For Christian women to receive one of these types of books at her bridal shower is probably an excellent idea.

368 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:02:11pm

re: #361 Killgore Trout

The second video is damn funny.

369 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:02:39pm

re: #352 John Neverbend

OK, I know you're the right person to answer this question that's been bugging me for ages. Why do adverts for cialis (or is it viagra?) end with a couple sitting in separate and empty bath tubs in the most unlikely locations, away from any obvious plumbing?

Here's the original voiceover for that spot:

"When the time is right, but you're not ready...we're here for you. Cialis - the very thing for those strange times when you and your partner are sitting in the middle of nowhere, each in your own separate tub. Simply take Cialis, wait a few minutes, then yell Periscope!"

370 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:04:05pm

re: #367 EmmmieG

The other options being: My mother. I. Don't. Think. So. She taught me the birds and the bees, but I think we would have died from embarrassment to discuss the nuts and bolts of sex. Furthermore, someone writing a book is probably more accurate.

A doctor. Too expensive. She (the doctor) is better off writing a book and selling it for less than a doctor's visit.

College roommates. Let's go back to accuracy. Better off hearing it from an expert.

For Christian women to receive one of these types of books at her bridal shower is probably an excellent idea.

For observant Jewish girls, there are very similar books.

371 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:04:29pm

re: #369 subsailor68

Here's the original voiceover for that spot:

"When the time is right, but you're not ready...we're here for you. Cialis - the very thing for those strange times when you and your partner are sitting in the middle of nowhere, each in your own separate tub. Simply take Cialis, wait a few minutes, then yell Periscope!"

Or even "flood Q!"

372 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:04:33pm

re: #370 LudwigVanQuixote


Glad to hear it.

373 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:04:41pm

re: #370 LudwigVanQuixote

For observant Jewish girls, there are very similar books.

Shmuley!

374 Lee Coller  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:04:49pm

re: #345 LudwigVanQuixote

They sound like great folks. Look, I am talking about the far Christian right here. The Dobson types, the Robertson types and the Falwell types. You know full well who I am referring to. You also know full well how crazy they are on these issues.

Why is making simple common sense observations based on the facts of who these people are and what they preach so difficult for you to accept?

I know many who fall into that category. You're "observations" quite frankly represent offensive stereotypes.

375 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:05:04pm

re: #347 LudwigVanQuixote

And I do not debate that those exist. My comment was, and continues to be, that there are many on the very far right who do not talk about these things and can not talk about these things.

The very existence of those books indicates a need for information in that community that they are not getting elsewhere.

The fucking shelves in any book store are LOADED with sex guides, manuals and popular TV doctors talking about sex.

Evidently then we must project you Victorian anecdote to 80 percent of the population (or 90 percent, hell if we are throwing unfounded stats around this afternoon), hell, I'm not being peer reviewed.

376 UP Border Collie  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:05:30pm

re: #352 John Neverbend

oh, please!!! Will someone answer this question for me!!! Tubs...on a lake...on a mountain...what is it that I am missing???

As for the whole HPV issue.. My recollection was that by refusing to consider it as an authorized vaccine, a person's health insurance would not reimburse for the charges. At $100 per shot and 3 are required...it limits the number of parents that can take advantage of it.
The purpose of the vaccine is to prevent HPV, not cure it. So, if you were an adult female (and already sexually active) there is a chance that you had already been exposed and the vaccine wouldn't help. So the purpose of the vaccine is to protect females prior to sexual activity and thereby prevent the disease.

377 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:05:53pm

re: #373 Ben Hur

Shmuley!

Oh him. The one whose surname, some "wag" in England pronounced as "botty ache" (in the US, "pain in the tush").

378 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:06:25pm

re: #349 buzzsawmonkey

Sometimes, Ludwig, I wonder just how old you are--since I can tell you that well within living memory "most teens" did not "do it," even if they were interested in doing so and even eager to do so, until they were married or at least in a relationship that was on the marriage track.

Because back in your day, there were no teen pregnancies or STDs?

379 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:07:36pm

re: #376 UP Border Collie

oh, please!!! Will someone answer this question for me!!! Tubs...on a lake...on a mountain...what is it that I am missing???

As for the whole HPV issue.. My recollection was that by refusing to consider it as an authorized vaccine, a person's health insurance would not reimburse for the charges. At $100 per shot and 3 are required...it limits the number of parents that can take advantage of it.
The purpose of the vaccine is to prevent HPV, not cure it. So, if you were an adult female (and already sexually active) there is a chance that you had already been exposed and the vaccine wouldn't help. So the purpose of the vaccine is to protect females prior to sexual activity and thereby prevent the disease.

the mountain lake is extremely cold, the tub is hot...there is a difference

380 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:08:00pm

re: #370 LudwigVanQuixote

For observant Jewish girls, there are very similar books.

And BTW, after reading some of those books and hearing what gets said by some folks in Yeshiva about these matters, it is not at all hard to generalize out to what the Christian Right's level of ignorance is likely to be.

381 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:08:04pm

re: #349 buzzsawmonkey

Sometimes, Ludwig, I wonder just how old you are--since I can tell you that well within living memory "most teens" did not "do it," even if they were interested in doing so and even eager to do so, until they were married or at least in a relationship that was on the marriage track.

Please, don't let social facts get in the way of anecdotal statements.
/

382 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:08:22pm

re: #375 Walter L. Newton

The fucking shelves in any book store are LOADED with sex guides, manuals and popular TV doctors talking about sex.

At least they put them on the right shelves.

383 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:09:26pm

re: #382 wrenchwench

At least they put them on the right shelves.

Ok, you just harshed my debating momentum, but that was funny.

384 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:09:43pm

re: #370 LudwigVanQuixote

For observant Jewish girls, there are very similar books.

I was an early reader. My dad left Penthouse laying around. I read the forum letters and figured it out from there.

385 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:09:44pm

re: #370 LudwigVanQuixote

For observant Jewish girls, there are very similar books.

My two older daughters were very shy about asking me anything about sex, although now they have families and they certainly know how to make babies!

My youngest daughter, now there was never any sex question she was too embarrassed to ask about.

386 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:09:48pm

re: #374 Lee Coller

re: #375 Walter L. Newton

My observations are from a certain set of very openly anti-sexual people who frequently say really really stupid things about sex in general. Given the general displayed level of virulence and stupidity that obtains on these matters from the super far right crowd, it is not difficult to draw these conclusions.

387 theheat  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:09:58pm

They don't want sex ed. They don't want contraception available for their underage darlings doing the nasty, as if that will stop it. They don't want the infamous morning after pill available for their underage darlings that did the nasty. They don't want abortions available for people who could have possibly eliminated the need for an abortion by either 1.) better/earlier sex education, 2.) widely available contraception, or 3.) the morning after pill. They say this is an intrusion on their personal views and family values, all the while charting a laser-perfect course for unwanted and underage pregnancies. Then, they use scare tactics to justify their willful ignorance about one of the oldest and most basic human urges: sex.

This is when the pro-life camp needs a reality check. People like Bachmann are the ambassadors for stupid. She just happens to be prettier than some of the others.

Palin/Bachmann 2012. Collectively, dumber than a bag of hammers. It's a winner.

388 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:10:34pm

re: #381 Walter L. Newton

Please, don't let social facts get in the way of anecdotal statements.
/

Because it was not a social fact that back then there were no STDs or teen pregnancies?

389 Occasional Reader  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:11:23pm

In the words of the British philosopher/poet, George Michael:

Sex is natural
sex is good
Not everybody's done it
but everybody should

And that's all I have to say on the subject. For now. Back to work. (Two contracts drafted, one to go)

390 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:11:59pm
391 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:12:47pm

re: #388 LudwigVanQuixote

Because it was not a social fact that back then there were no STDs or teen pregnancies?

No, the social fact that is wasn't done near as often. You know what I meant. But again, a clever diversion.

392 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:13:55pm

re: #389 Occasional Reader

You left out beatnik. /

393 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:14:24pm

re: #385 Alouette

My two older daughters were very shy about asking me anything about sex, although now they have families and they certainly know how to make babies!

My youngest daughter, now there was never any sex question she was too embarrassed to ask about.

At the end of the day, if you have sensible parents who can talk about such things, then there is much less of an issue. I have been saying all along that people need to be able to talk about these things with someone and get information.

But talking about our neck of the woods, how come every Kallah book has a don't worry about fireworks, he's a wonderful man section? There are all manner of Bais Yaakov girls who would consider it a sin to ask about it, because they would be afraid as being seen as promiscuous for even wanting information.

394 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:14:27pm

re: #386 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #375 Walter L. Newton

My observations are from a certain set of very openly anti-sexual people who frequently say really really stupid things about sex in general. Given the general displayed level of virulence and stupidity that obtains on these matters from the super far right crowd, it is not difficult to draw these conclusions.

That would never pass peer review, would it? Your observations are only anecdotal without any further stats.

Sorry, play again.

395 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:15:22pm

the song that changed everything...

396 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:15:48pm

re: #375 Walter L. Newton

The fucking shelves in any book store are LOADED with sex guides, manuals and popular TV doctors talking about sex.

No pun intended?

397 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:16:01pm

re: #301 Walter L. Newton

And this bit of Victorian history, Victorian history that deals with another country no less, how is this germane to the current topic?

As an aside to this, it was because of Victorian prudery that George Eliot learned ancient Greek. Mind you, she also knew Latin, Italian, German, Hebrew...she was a smart cookie. She lived with George Henry Lewes, who was married to another woman but could not get a divorce. Whenever he was invited out to dinner in Victorian society, George Eliot was not invited. Instead, she stayed at home and studied Greek. Anthony Trollope, bless him, was a close friend and would write letters to her addressed to Mrs. Lewes.

398 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:16:24pm

re: #394 Walter L. Newton

That would never pass peer review, would it? Your observations are only anecdotal without any further stats.

Sorry, play again.

yeah yeah yeah, never pass peer review, I am so very hurt Walter. Bite me.

399 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:16:40pm

re: #396 Mad Al-Jaffee

No pun intended?

No, but someone else up thread found it. Funny.

400 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:16:51pm
401 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:17:16pm

re: #391 Walter L. Newton

No, the social fact that is wasn't done near as often. You know what I meant. But again, a clever diversion.

One thing to be mentioned is that people get married much later in their lives now than they used to. When you're getting married at 16, 17, or 18 there's not a lot of time for premarital sex. If you're waiting until you're done with grad school and settled into a career to get hitched, there's a lot more time for fooling around.

I believe evangelical couples still tend to get married younger. (can't find the stat, but I've read it.)

402 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:18:07pm

re: #3 Ojoe

"I think I'll sign up for the breeding program."

— The Hippo in "Madagascar."

Gloria. Her name is Gloria.

403 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:19:22pm

re: #398 LudwigVanQuixote

yeah yeah yeah, never pass peer review, I am so very hurt Walter. Bite me.

liberal sex foreplay?

404 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:19:30pm

re: #17 Shiplord Kirel

Gee, Charles, she's no crazier than the Dems' own Cynbat the Sailor McKinney.

/Insanely unconvincing tu quoque

Well, she's definately not crazier. But Cyn-Cyn sets a really high standard.

405 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:19:32pm

re: #400 buzzsawmonkey

I will remind you that 40 years ago "Love Child" was a hit. This was a song which exalts not having sex outside of marriage for fear of producing an out of wedlock child. Not long before that, the song "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?" was a hit--a song which cautions against giving it up for fear of losing one's beloved after doing so.

Recent hit? "Baby Mama"--which exalts having children out of wedlock.

And I will remind you that there was a reason why the Twenties roared and the Nineties (1890's) were gay.

I will remind you about Romans and Egyptians and Greeks and all manner of fun things they got up too. These things go in cycles in terms not so much of people doing it, but rather in terms of how much they talk about it.

Yes it is true that overall times are more promiscuous than in the 50's, probably less than in the 70's though.

406 theheat  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:20:36pm
If you're waiting until you're done with grad school and settled into a career to get hitched, there's a lot more time for fooling around.
"My momma told me you better shop around..."

Looking back, I kicked a lot of tires.

407 albusteve  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:20:38pm

re: #402 SanFranciscoZionist

Gloria. Her name is Gloria.

her she is...

408 bosforus  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:21:11pm

re: #336 Conservative Moonbat

Speaking of which, did you know that a woman's history of vaginal orgasm is discernible through her walk?

sorry, random thought association

Hmmm... there's a "gay man's walk" joke in there somewhere.

409 UP Border Collie  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:22:00pm

BBL. The chicken is calling out that for his own cialis...you know, in the "tub" but without such a lovely view
and hopefully no periscopes!
// (did I do that right?)

410 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:22:56pm

re: #398 LudwigVanQuixote

yeah yeah yeah, never pass peer review, I am so very hurt Walter. Bite me.

You always manage to hit the 6 year old, school yard bottom when you have nothing left to debate about.

411 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:32:13pm
412 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:41:42pm

re: #411 buzzsawmonkey

You're probably trying to make a point here, but it remains obscure.

There are periods of relative license and periods where license is frowned upon--true. These things wax and wane. That, however, merely goes to show that treating license as a given is a matter of what society is willing to approve, and that therefore to claim that "everybody" is naturally going to do it is false on its face.

I thought it was very clear. There was never a time when "Just say no" would have been a realistic answer to teen sex problems. That is what started this sub discussion.

413 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:43:32pm

re: #410 Walter L. Newton

You always manage to hit the 6 year old, school yard bottom when you have nothing left to debate about.

NO, if you start to debate I will respond... It really isn't that you are trying to debate, you are just saying over and over that my arguments suck or would not pass peer review, while making no arguments of your own.

So really, Walter bite me.

414 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:43:50pm

re: #27 Ben Hur

So she's saying that Planned Parenthood will be in schools and parents will have no right to know what is being discussed with their minor children?

I can see a problem with that.

Yes, I can also see a problem with that, since I believe that she's mistaken about that, and is spreading bad information.

415 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:46:59pm

re: #44 Sharmuta

If they are menstruating, then yes. They need yearly check ups.

At that age, even if they aren't menstruating yet. They need to be seeing a GYN annually, just to make sure all is well.

416 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:49:35pm
417 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:55:21pm

re: #415 SanFranciscoZionist

At that age, even if they aren't menstruating yet. They need to be seeing a GYN annually, just to make sure all is well.

Good point.

418 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:57:47pm

re: #124 buzzsawmonkey

You're making kind of a leap there, aren't you? To believe that people were witches is one thing; to say that the people believed to be witches were "strong women being punished for their sexuality" is something entirely different.

Yes, there were people who were believed to be witches (and wizards) who were hunted down and killed for their alleged practice of witchcraft. What has that to do with "sexuality?"

Read the literature of the day. The obsession with the sexual behavior of witches is utterly terrifying. And there's some evidence to suggest that financially independent women were likely to be targeted. More complicated than just that, but I think you can make a case for it.

419 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 1:59:58pm

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

Very correct.

I love the "popular media" version of history that so many people have hooked into. Heaven help us.

Oh, you mean the one about how there was no premarital sex in Victorian England?

420 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:02:42pm

re: #157 drcordell

If that's actually true, hoo boy that is one of the more absurd things I've ever heard. How do you go through life without any knowledge of an entire orifice located on your body?

You are strongly socially discouraged from ever examining or thinking about your nether bits, that's the only explanation I can readily think of.

421 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:06:53pm
422 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:27:12pm

re: #32 MandyManners

Why not? I'm not sure about the legality of withholding medical records of a minor from the parents. And where does parental consent start and end with this? Isn't parental consent required for medical treatment apart from first aid and examination?

423 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:29:02pm

re: #414 SanFranciscoZionist

Do you or anyone have the relevant passage from the bill? If she read it accurately, we have room to discuss the meaning of the language "on the ground".

424 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:32:10pm

re: #421 buzzsawmonkey

The literature of which day--ours or theirs? The Salem trials in America, or witch hunts in Europe in the Middle Ages?

The topic is far too broad for generalization. There surely was an element of targeting people who "didn't fit," for whatever reason, when accusations of witchcraft were leveled. This would have included sexual elements, envy, fear, personal dislike, political or financial rivalry, etc., etc.--just as with accusations of heresy--as well as, quite possibly, actual belief in the matters of which people were accused.

I am merely saying that "oh, these were just reasons to target strong or sexual women" grafts modern-day feminist theories onto very different times, societies, and belief systems in a shallow and facile way.

OK, whatever. I don't want to argue the witch hunts, and I don't want to argue feminist historical theory.

425 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:34:22pm

re: #421 buzzsawmonkey

There would also be the fact of undiagnosed and untreated mental illnesses, both in the accused and the accusor.

426 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:35:24pm
427 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:35:45pm

re: #273 Irving

There is always tantric sex. Less religion yet (LOL) more positions.

428 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:37:50pm

re: #400 buzzsawmonkey

I will remind you that 40 years ago "Love Child" was a hit. This was a song which exalts not having sex outside of marriage for fear of producing an out of wedlock child. Not long before that, the song "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?" was a hit--a song which cautions against giving it up for fear of losing one's beloved after doing so.

Recent hit? "Baby Mama"--which exalts having children out of wedlock.

Hank Ballard was writing some pretty wild lyrics in the 1950s that would make some rappers blush, and they sure weren't about consummating a marriage. ;-) And Marvin Gaye's Let's Get It On was 36 years ago.

This whole "old music was pristine and chaste, new music is trashy and sexual" thing, man I get tired of it.

429 calcajun  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:41:45pm

re: #416 buzzsawmonkey

To suggest that the current standard of sexualizing children in their pre-teens is superior, or even desirable, and presuming that children not only will but should be cavorting as soon as their equipment permits, seems crazy to me.

Only if you plan to marry'em off young.

The best form of birth control my parents knew for their teen-age sons was sending them to same-sex Catholic high-schools. Hell, I never had a chance to knock up a girl--and neither did my brothers--till we were in our late teens.

Stressing abstinence will work to a degree. But, as a father now of four teens, you also have to be able to control their social settings-- deny them the opportunity will work as well.

430 calcajun  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:42:52pm

re: #428 WindUpBird

Not to mention that horrible Glenn Miller piece, "In the Mood". Filthy trash!/

431 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:49:29pm

re: #400 buzzsawmonkey

Another 40 year old song? The Lemon Song by Led Zeppelin. 1969. Google those lyrics!

432 tradewind  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:53:08pm

re: #412 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't agree... it worked pretty well for my parents, at least until we left for college...
There's no better excuse than ' my parents would kill me, and ground me for life'.

433 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:54:47pm
434 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 3:01:22pm

Are we allowed to discuss MILFs in Michele's sex clinic? Because Michele is sort of a MILF ... but the "M" stands for something other than "Mom."

435 jzm  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 3:13:09pm

I'm a 9/12 Republican and this is so embarrassing. I'm going to start calling myself an Independent in public.

436 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 3:23:37pm

re: #388 LudwigVanQuixote

Because it was not a social fact that back then there were no STDs or teen pregnancies?

Completely different debate.

437 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 3:29:22pm

re: #401 Conservative Moonbat

One thing to be mentioned is that people get married much later in their lives now than they used to. When you're getting married at 16, 17, or 18 there's not a lot of time for premarital sex. If you're waiting until you're done with grad school and settled into a career to get hitched, there's a lot more time for fooling around.

I believe evangelical couples still tend to get married younger. (can't find the stat, but I've read it.)

*Sigh*

People in the past got married much later than you think. One of the things that was extremely notable about the American colonies was that, right up to the 1750's, people could, indeed, get married at about 21. Then the land within the borders wasn't as plentiful, and people were having to wait until 25 or so to marry; Europeans, it should be noted, in most classes, married in their late 20's, not their early 20's, because they couldn't afford to before they'd established themselves.

It is, in fact, rather an interesting oddity of the middle of the last century that people could afford to marry quite young, and did.

438 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 3:40:36pm

re: #418 SanFranciscoZionist

Read the literature of the day. The obsession with the sexual behavior of witches is utterly terrifying. And there's some evidence to suggest that financially independent women were likely to be targeted. More complicated than just that, but I think you can make a case for it.

Let's break that paragraph up, just a little. Not because you're necessarily wrong, but you're conflating several different sets of information.

The sexual behavior of "heretics" (I do not mean this in purely the Christian/Catholic sense, but as a term to describe social oprobium) is always portrayed as deviant. This seems to be a theme of human thinking, not purely an issue of the European witchcraft hysteria. It is terrifying, but it's damn near universal.

Regarding financially independent women being targeted: Frankly, no. The most likely victim of a witchcraft accusation was a poor widow, who had to "borrow" from her neighbors. The next most likely victim was a person - usually female, but not always - whose social position had changed, abruptly, and particularly if it was for the worse. The third most likely victim was someone whose mother, aunt, or uncle (not father, for some reason) had been accused of witchcraft.

Mental illness was recognized more often than you think.

There were people who openly practiced magic - Brigid Bishop at Salem was one, she definitely practiced image magic and engaged in at least one magical duel - and sometimes they were accused. But considering that kitchen magics were very common, and commonly condemned from the pulpit, this is not all that common.

439 calcajun  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 3:42:23pm

re: #433 buzzsawmonkey

"Isn't it good
Norwegian wood."

Blatant trash!

440 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 3:46:52pm

re: #421 buzzsawmonkey

The literature of which day--ours or theirs? The Salem trials in America, or witch hunts in Europe in the Middle Ages?

The topic is far too broad for generalization. There surely was an element of targeting people who "didn't fit," for whatever reason, when accusations of witchcraft were leveled. This would have included sexual elements, envy, fear, personal dislike, political or financial rivalry, etc., etc.--just as with accusations of heresy--as well as, quite possibly, actual belief in the matters of which people were accused.

I am merely saying that "oh, these were just reasons to target strong or sexual women" grafts modern-day feminist theories onto very different times, societies, and belief systems in a shallow and facile way.

Buzz, the dates for the witchcraft hysteria are, very roughly, 1450 (Alys Ketteling in Ireland is earlier) to 1780 - with an outlying case in 1790-something.

It is a renaissance phenomenon, Catholic and Protestant, with very, very few areas nearly immune, including, curiously, Spain. England was actually not that bad - a few high-profile trials, some low-level church court prosecutions, an unknown amount of popular persecution, and only one really bad era, under Cromwell.

That was a terribly misogynistic time - particularly between about 1530 and 1650.

It's a good idea to break all this out.

441 Dianna  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 3:48:54pm

re: #425 EmmmieG

There would also be the fact of undiagnosed and untreated mental illnesses, both in the accused and the accusor.

Less than you think.

We actually see it more in a case like the accusations against the McMartin Preschool.

442 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 3:57:22pm
443 theheat  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 4:31:08pm

re: #428 WindUpBird

Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith... they were way before that, even. And black. And women. I'm a big fan of both.

444 Ben G. Hazi  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 4:49:08pm

re: #293 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I was just brushing up on Graham's history. He's pretty much unpopular with what's going on these days. It looks like nobody will pay attention to him now but he's positioning himself pretty well for when this craziness blows over. The GOP is going to desperately need politicians who distanced themselves from this stupidity.

But, but, but...isn't Lindsey Graham a dirty *GASP* RINO?

///

445 calcajun  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 4:49:37pm

re: #440 Dianna

Huh? The reign of Mary I was no great age for religious tolerance in England. Her little half-brother, Edward VI, then gave the Catholics hell and Elizabeth was not horribly tolerant, either. Things calmed down in the age of James I. The fact that Charles I was a closet Catholic was a factor in why he was deposed--but not the deciding factor. It was the deciding factor in the overthrow of James II in 1688 and why it's been the law that the sovereign has to be a member of the C of E-- as they're the titular head of that Church.

There wasn't persecution of Catholics in the 18th century-but there was open discrimination.

BTW, Cromwell was not as bad as you might think--he invited the Jews back into England and the first synagogues for hundreds of years began operating in London.

446 J.S.  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 5:08:09pm

re: #437 Dianna

Might also add that Quebec women were (back in the 1700s) "serial monogamists." It's due to the toughness of the living conditions -- the men tended to die early (they'd be killed by Indians, falling trees, brawls, etc.) -- then the women would re-marry...It wasn't unusual for women to have had (gone through) 3 or 4 husbands...Many women in Quebec also became quite wealthy ( as a consequence)..

447 Hawaii69  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 5:15:36pm

re: #2 EmmmieG

Well, nobody would be tardy, or cut class...

Michelled Bachman is a bit "tardy"...

448 Hector1980  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 5:27:48pm

Second rate Palin. Meh.

449 dartmydog  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 5:50:21pm

They make the treatment innocuous to save a poor girl from the wrath of a parent like Mrs. Bachmann or similar.

450 Flyers1974  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 6:07:26pm

re: #400 buzzsawmonkey

James Brown – Get Up (I Feel Like Being) A Sex Machine 1970

Jimmy Buffett - Why Don't We Get Drunk (and Screw) 1973

Led Zeppelin - Black Dog 1971

The Doors - Hello I love you 1968

451 Flyers1974  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 6:11:48pm

re: #433 buzzsawmonkey

There have been "dirty" lyrics and bawdy ballads going back through the centuries. Nobody says there weren't. I have quite a number of them on 78, for that matter--and, within the idiom of the time, they were as raunchy as you please.

What I am talking about, however, is how what is socially acceptable is reflected in what is popular. There was plenty of sexual experimentation going on in the 1920s, but nobody pretended that "My Handy Man" was socially acceptable in polite company, any more than "Foggy, Foggy Dew" was acceptable in polite company 100 years earlier.

If you don't think that public morals and social standards of deportment have taken a nosedive over the last 40 or 50 years, you are either very young or have no sense of history.


If by social standards, you mean manners, I'd guess you'd be right. What are public morals by the way?

452 Flyers1974  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 6:14:01pm

re: #451 Flyers1974

Never mind, dead thread.

453 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 6:26:34pm

re: #452 Flyers1974

Never mind, dead thread.

I still love you Flyers!

454 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 6:42:40pm

re: #416 buzzsawmonkey

That is quite simply not true.

If you are saying that "just say no" never worked for everyone, all the time--well, duh. But neither does "sex education."

The ideal of "just say no"--of chastity prior to marriage--was the operative social standard from Victorian times until the end of the 1960s. And, while it did not work all the time, as a social ideal it operated to keep the incidence of bastardy and STD transmission down, and ensure a measure of social stability.

To suggest that the current standard of sexualizing children in their pre-teens is superior, or even desirable, and presuming that children not only will but should be cavorting as soon as their equipment permits, seems crazy to me.

I will comment here that prostitution in Victorian England was rampant.

455 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 6:43:41pm

re: #435 jzm

I'm a 9/12 Republican and this is so embarrassing. I'm going to start calling myself an Independent in public.

Lou Dobbs is way ahead of you.

456 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 6:44:56pm

re: #432 tradewind

I don't agree... it worked pretty well for my parents, at least until we left for college...
There's no better excuse than ' my parents would kill me, and ground me for life'.

My grandfather got married when he was sixteen. Under a fake name. When the parents found out, the marriage was annulled. My grandma (not the lady in question), said that they wanted some social insurance if their weekend in a hotel produced offspring.

457 Aisha bint Abi Bakr  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 7:32:30pm

# 64 Sharmuta

Thanks for your most reasonable comments about Planned Parenthood. I contribute money to that organization as well as NARAL and NOW.

458 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 7:33:44pm

re: #457 Aisha bint Abi Bakr

You're very welcome. In my youth, were it not for PP, I wouldn't have had a clinic to get my testing done, and I haven't forgotten.

460 Etaoin Shrdlu  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 8:07:44pm

re: #416 buzzsawmonkey

[...] chastity prior to marriage--was the operative social standard from Victorian times until the end of the 1960s. [...] To suggest that the current standard of sexualizing children in their pre-teens is superior [...]

"Mary Simpson"

(Link may be disturbing to some viewers and/or considered NSFW.)

461 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 9:31:38pm

The thing that strikes me as weird about the crazy things she has been saying over the last year or two plus, is why?

I keep thinking that there is problem with the "brain trust" somebody is not giving her good advice or she has been going out on her own on this stuff.

I have met with her years back while doing some stuff in Washington DC and she didn't come off as someone who would be going this direction. My impression was that she was level headed and pretty even keeled. I just can't help but think that someone is contributing to her drift out in left field.

Its too bad, she has been on the right side of many issues and a good supporter of some very crucial issues, but this kind of thing is really going to erode her credibility into a state of pure dismissal.


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