Scott Brown’s Tea Party Honeymoon is Over

Politics • Views: 3,727

Oops. Scott Brown voted the wrong way on the Senate jobs bill, and now he has tea party heartache.

Comment by Relentless_Righteous_and_Right 31 minutes ago

Great. Another marxist. Case closed. Thanks, Scott. Guess we’ll have to wait another 6 years to find a real Conservative to fill the dead kennedy’s seat.

(Hat tip: cronus.)

UPDATE at 2/22/10 7:16:07 pm:

Scott Brown was actually the first Senator to vote for the bill.

As soon as the vote was called, he strode quickly into the well and interrupted the clerk as he read the roll.

“Yes,” Brown said quietly, and then, having become Reid’s first vote, he rushed out of the room before Republican colleagues arrived. He stepped into the hallway, then waited for reporters to assemble around him.

“I’m not from around here,” he said. “I’m from Massachusetts.”

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823 comments
1 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 6:59:27pm

The Tea Party crowd didn't like Brown's vote, but his constituents did, and it is the opinion of the latter that counts.

2 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 6:59:47pm

Let me be the first of many who all took this position last month: "We totally called this".

Like always, the Republicans know how to play the far right like a xylophone.

3 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 6:59:50pm

Marxist? Really? Do they even know what the fuck a 'Marxist' is?!
Pardon my language.

4 laZardo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:00:18pm

Oooh, lemme get my wide brush.

/trying to resist temptation this time.

5 cronus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:00:37pm

Thank you or the hat tip.

6 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:01:08pm

re: #3 Varek Raith

Marxist? Really? Do they even know what the fuck a 'Marxist' is?!
Pardon my language.

You know who else voted for a jobs bill?

/

7 cronus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:01:14pm

re: #5 cronus

Thank you or the hat tip.

for

8 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:01:19pm

re: #3 Varek Raith

Marxist? Really? Do they even know what the fuck a 'Marxist' is?!
Pardon my language.

I think even some of the people who claim to be Marxist don't know what a "Marxist' really is.

A lot like a lot of the people who claim to be "conservative" come to think of it....

9 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:01:24pm

Tea Party!

10 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:01:25pm

re: #3 Varek Raith

Marxist? Really? Do they even know what the fuck a 'Marxist' is?!
Pardon my language.

A Marxist is anyone who is evil.

11 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:01:44pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

Tea Party!

Scott Brown is a socialist!111!111

/

12 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:01:44pm

re: #8 jamesfirecat

"Libertarian"

13 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:01:50pm

At least Brown is not beholden to the fringe, so far. That ought to belay a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth that emanated from some quarters upon his election.

14 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:02:12pm

re: #10 Vambo

A Marxist is anyone who is evil.

Ah, bugger! A Sith Lord Marxist sounds LAME!
:)

15 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:02:35pm

re: #8 jamesfirecat

I think even some of the people who claim to be Marxist don't know what a "Marxist' really is.

A lot like a lot of the people who claim to be "conservative" come to think of it...

I am not a Marxist; I am Marx!
-- Karl Marx

16 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:02:37pm

re: #14 Varek Raith

"The Marxist Emperor"?

17 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:02:46pm

re: #12 windsagio

"Libertarian"

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

18 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:02:47pm

Here's a collection of Tweets collected by AmericaBlog:

it wasn't just the people of MA who put you where you are. Next time you vote like that I expect to be kissed first!

Well, I guess we worked our tails off to get another RINO elected. I'm so disappointed in Scott Brown

Hey, Massachusetts! How do you like Scott Specter?

You dont understand - We Americans Had Drawn A Line In The Sand With @scottbrownma - Its All Gone Now. #traitor

Michael Savage totally called it... @SCOTTBROWNMA sucks!

Congratulations to Comrade Scott "Marxist" Brown on Voting For Bolshevik Jobs Bill.

You're aiming for a 1 term seat eh? forgot, you can just run next time as a democrat.

Is being labeled "an independent thinker" more important than being labeled "a principled man"? Scott?

@ScottBrownMa is a phony. Votes for a bill to rip us off of more tax money. No wonder Ma voted for ya.

Brown's a PROGRESSIVE .. and will progressively turn all the conservatives against him. Such a disappointment.

All the work done to get @scottbrownma elected and this is how he returns the favor

Un-effing believable . Wow, I'm blown away you would vote for this?!? What was the payoff? Guess you're a 1 term guy. Fooled us

For Brown to cave so fast, I think we supported a loser.%P%%P%NO we supported a FISCAL FRAUD not a HAWK

I thought your were a Fiscal Conservative. I like many across this nation donated to your campaign! Like Obama, YOU LIE!

ASK FOR YOUR MONEY BACK - I am sorry I promoted this traitor.

renegs on promise 2 B fiscal conservative after 1 meeting w/Reid I can't help being disappointed & nervous

DO NOT SUPPORT @SCOTTBROWNMA - ASK FOR YOUR MONEY BACK - I am sorry I promoted this...

The thing about @scottbrownma is that I knew teh betrayal would come. I just didn't think it would be so quick.

Was Right. Scott Brown Is Not A Conservative - Another Progressive RINO like McCain, Lindsey & Romney

@ScottBrownMa is another Evan Bayh only with a (R) after his name

19 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:02:47pm

re: #13 The Sanity Inspector

At least Brown is not beholden to the fringe, so far. That ought to belay a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth that emanated from some quarters upon his election.

No, he's just waiting for the perfect moment to show his cloven hoof. I mean, we all just KNOW the guy's a baddy, right?

20 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:02:55pm

re: #3 Varek Raith

Marxist? Really? Do they even know what the fuck a 'Marxist' is?!
Pardon my language.

Marxist: "Anyone to the left of Rush"

21 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:03:06pm

Umm, do they not realize the man represents Massachusetts? He's going to have to be a centrist to be reelected, which means he will sometimes vote with the Dems.

Brown always voting with the GOP would be a direct path to a short career in the Senate.

22 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:03:20pm

re: #14 Varek Raith

Random Star Wars factoid: George Lucas once outlawed a sith's name because it wasn't 'icky' enough.


Seriously!

23 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:03:26pm

re: #10 Vambo

A Marxist is anyone who is evil.

Anyone who is evil on someone else's dime.

24 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:03:36pm

re: #3 Varek Raith

Marxist? Really? Do they even know what the fuck a 'Marxist' is?!
Pardon my language.

Someone who likes "Duck Soup"?

25 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:03:52pm

re: #14 Varek Raith

Ah, bugger! A Sith Lord Marxist sounds LAME!
:)

Sith are big on equality: All Jedi are equally worthy of death, and all others are equal under the heel of the Sith.

26 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:04:01pm

re: #24 austin_blue

Someone who likes "Duck Soup"?

Night at the Opera, you counter-revolutionary running dog!

27 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:04:09pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

Tea Party!

BROWN OUT!

28 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:04:25pm

re: #25 Dark_Falcon

Sith are big on equality: All Jedi are equally worthy of death, and all others are equal under the heel of the Sith.

And, because there are only two Sith, the whole equality thing is a lot easier to work out.

29 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:04:48pm

re: #25 Dark_Falcon

A friend of mine got a sneak peek at the upcoming Star Wars MMO, and said that it's looking to be nine kinds of awesome.

30 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:04:54pm

re: #21 Soap_Man

Umm, do they not realize the man represents Massachusetts? He's going to have to be a centrist to be reelected, which means he will sometimes vote with the Dems.

Brown always voting with the GOP would be a direct path to a short career in the Senate.

Well he got away with roadblocking the Major democratic agenda on Healthcare reform (even running on doing it) so I guess the Tea Party just expected him to make all their magical wishes come true and make sure Obama never got a chance to sign another bill into a law....

31 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:05:16pm

re: #29 Obdicut

A friend of mine got a sneak peek at the upcoming Star Wars MMO, and said that it's looking to be nine kinds of awesome.

MMO?

32 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:05:44pm

re: #31 NJDhockeyfan

MMO?

Massively multiplayer online

33 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:05:45pm

re: #24 austin_blue

Someone who likes "Duck Soup"?

A Night at the Opera is I think a better film on the whole, but Duck Soup is sort of the quintessential Marx Brother's Movie...

34 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:05:49pm

Heh. I would prefer the bill not pass myself, but I'm not putting him next to Marx. I think he probably doesn't support it at all either, but is doing this to try and get traction in Washington. That's cool and all, but I wish he wasn't using my paycheck to do it. Or my grandkids'

35 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:06:07pm

re: #32 Varek Raith

Massively multiplayer online

Oh, sounds cool.

36 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:06:11pm

re: #30 jamesfirecat

Well he got away with roadblocking the Major democratic agenda on Healthcare reform (even running on doing it) so I guess the Tea Party just expected him to make all their magical wishes come true and make sure Obama never got a chance to sign another bill into a law...

People tend to project all manner of hopes and expectations onto someone who is opposed to some things they are opposed to, and who support some things they support. The more nebulous and hazy that person can make his positions, the likelier he or she is of success.

37 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:06:19pm

re: #26 Guanxi88

Night at the Opera, you counter-revolutionary running dog!

38 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:06:53pm

Greg Girard (MA psycho stockpiling weapons, tea partier and Palin fan) also considered Brown a 'turncoat':

On the other hand, Senator Scott Brown looks like he's already a turncoat. Recent statements by him (yesterday) express his desire reign in a new error of "bipartisanship" and to reach out to the Dems on some of the better ideas in the socialized medicine plan.

WHAT is he talking about? Did he bump his head? Is it me, or did we send that guy to Washingto D. C. specifically to stop the Marxist wrecking ball, not to make nice with it? He was also blathering on about his intention to avoid "business as usual," these statements apparently motivated by some woefully naive notion that the Dems are going to somehow change their ways for him. I hope he shakes off this feel-good, "let's be pals" rhetoric and makes ready for political warfare. Otherwise, the lefties are going to squash him like a bug, and enjoy doing it. They could not care less about reaching across the except to grab an opponent by the throat the throttle him.

January 29th.
[Link: patriotsforamerica.ning.com...]

39 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:07:15pm

re: #23 The Sanity Inspector

Anyone who is evil on someone else's dime.

Everyone who is on someone else's dime is Evil.

40 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:07:32pm

re: #37 austin_blue

Hmmm.. what happened to my hilarious response?

41 idioma  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:07:46pm

Maybe I am wrong about him... I hope I am.

42 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:07:49pm

re: #39 Vambo

Everyone who is on someone else's dime is Evil.

...Everyone is evil. Simple, no?
/

43 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:08:05pm

This whole thing is funny in a way. The Dems have a super-majority and can't get anything done. Then they lose their super-majority and start passing stuff.

44 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:08:05pm

re: #42 Varek Raith

How very Christian of you ;)

45 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:08:17pm

Hey, you, get offa my dime.

46 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:08:32pm

re: #42 Varek Raith

...Everyone is evil. Simple, no?
/

wah!!! bring back the 18th Century. :(

/sad tea partier.

47 Lidane  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:09:02pm

re: #29 Obdicut

A friend of mine got a sneak peek at the upcoming Star Wars MMO, and said that it's looking to be nine kinds of awesome.

It's BioWare. Of course it's going to be nine kinds of awesome. Heh.

48 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:09:11pm

re: #34 cliffster

Heh. I would prefer the bill not pass myself, but I'm not putting him next to Marx. I think he probably doesn't support it at all either, but is doing this to try and get traction in Washington. That's cool and all, but I wish he wasn't using my paycheck to do it. Or my grandkids'

The odd thing is, the GOP opposed the Reid,scaled down 15 billion dollar jobs bill, but wanted a 80 billion dollar one.

49 laZardo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:09:40pm

re: #29 Obdicut

Call it foreshadowing, but there was this Star Wars Ps2 game back in the day and whenever me and my bros would go deathmatch I'd always pick the lizardman.

50 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:09:57pm

re: #43 Soap_Man

This whole thing is funny in a way. The Dems have a super-majority and can't get anything done. Then they lose their super-majority and start passing stuff.

Heh.
;)

51 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:10:21pm

re: #43 Soap_Man

It's funny because it's true.

52 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:10:31pm

re: #48 avanti

The odd thing is, the GOP opposed the Reid,scaled down 15 billion dollar jobs bill, but wanted a 80 billion dollar one.

/Let me guess, 5 billion in tax cuts, 10 billion in government spending, versus 80 billion in tax cuts?

53 Lidane  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:10:37pm

re: #43 Soap_Man

This whole thing is funny in a way. The Dems have a super-majority and can't get anything done. Then they lose their super-majority and start passing stuff.

Losing the super majority is what they needed.

As long as they had it, they were paralyzed by the various factions of the Democratic party demanding total fealty to this, that, or the other. Now that they don't have it anymore, they can ignore the rabble and get back down to business.

54 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:10:40pm

re: #47 Lidane

It's BioWare. Of course it's going to be nine kinds of awesome. Heh.

Play Dragon Age?

55 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:10:58pm

this is gonna be the last gasp for BO I think...a second stimulus, just think about that...it admits failure, it increases spending...they will spin the lingo all day, but there better be some tangible results or even people that have been quiet are gonna blow...this is a screwy deal and I would not have voted for it, but Brown must see it as a last ditch effort to get people back to work under the BO regime...I won't rag on him for it, he's trying to do what's best under terrible circumstances...the bloggers don't mean shit, they can rant all they want

56 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:11:07pm
Great. Another marxist. Case closed. Thanks, Scott. Guess we’ll have to wait another 6 years to find a real Conservative to fill the dead kennedy’s seat.

Scott Brown is filling a partial term, he's up for re-election in 2012, in a November general election. So if the tea partiers want to try and eat their young marxist cuckoo with Obama up for re-election too, well nobody ever credited them with an abundance of wisdom.

57 cronus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:12:12pm

I bet Scott Brown is poised to alienate a lot of conservative and liberal rage-aholics before he's done.

58 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:12:46pm

re: #53 Lidane

Losing the super majority is what they needed.

As long as they had it, they were paralyzed by the various factions of the Democratic party demanding total fealty to this, that, or the other. Now that they don't have it anymore, they can ignore the rabble and get back down to business.

Indeed.

Before, individual Democrats felt they were entitled to demand this or that. They felt they could clench their fists and say "X has to be in this bill or I ain't voting for it". Now the Dems know they have to work as a group. That's what has changed.

59 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:13:11pm

re: #57 cronus

I bet Scott Brown is poised to alienate a lot of conservative and liberal rage-aholics before he's done.

That would make him the conservative answer to Barack Obama wouldn't it?

60 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:13:15pm

re: #57 cronus

I bet Scott Brown is poised to alienate a lot of conservative and liberal rage-aholics before he's done.

I can get behind that.

61 Lidane  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:13:23pm

re: #54 Varek Raith

Play Dragon Age?

Not yet, though the boyfriend has both it and Mass Effect 2, and he's playing both.

I fell in love with BioWare because of the Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate series. And KOTOR. Those guys coming out with a Star Wars MMO set in the Old Republic? I'm excited. :D

62 laZardo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:14:34pm

re: #57 cronus

I bet Scott Brown is poised to alienate a lot of conservative and liberal rage-aholics before he's done.

EXTREAM CENTRIST! q;

63 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:14:41pm

re: #61 Lidane

Not yet, though the boyfriend has both it and Mass Effect 2, and he's playing both.

I fell in love with BioWare because of the Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate series. And KOTOR. Those guys coming out with a Star Wars MMO set in the Old Republic? I'm excited. :D

Dragon Age is awesome. Except, Alistair = Carth. I couldn't stand Carth.

64 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:16:14pm

Scott Brown was actually the first Senator to vote for the bill.

As soon as the vote was called, he strode quickly into the well and interrupted the clerk as he read the roll.

"Yes," Brown said quietly, and then, having become Reid's first vote, he rushed out of the room before Republican colleagues arrived. He stepped into the hallway, then waited for reporters to assemble around him.

"I'm not from around here," he said. "I'm from Massachusetts."

65 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:16:34pm

govt is dysfunctional...it's historic the way the donks have squandered their power play and have to beg the minority for votes...regardless of the TPs, it is a good thing voters are pissed off and vocal about it too....I would love to see Pelosi and Reid go down for ignoring the people and failing to lead...political maneuvering and covering your ass is not leadership....are you listening you thief, Ben Nelson?...you stupid beyond belief asshole?

66 darthstar  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:16:35pm

There goes the neighborhood. ;)

67 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:16:46pm

re: #64 Charles

lol he's not playin' to the crowd or anything.

/now I suspect a doublecross!

68 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:16:46pm

re: #64 Charles

That's... a little showboaty.

69 Lidane  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:17:04pm

re: #64 Charles

Scott Brown was actually the first Senator to vote for the bill.

That just makes it better. Heads will explode all around. XD

70 palomino  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:17:27pm

Wasn't his name being thrown around for the 2012 GOP ticket?

Problem is, among other things, he's pro-choice. And that won't work any better for him than it did for Rudy.

He could always pull a switcheroo on the issue, like Romney. But I don't think the GOP primary field needs another guy from MA who was for abortion before he was against it.

71 idioma  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:17:50pm
Comment by Christine Brennan 11 minutes ago
I understand your new to this job. Your trying to be bipartisian, but be serious. A "jobs" bill? As a small business owner I don't need a tax credit to hire an employee. I need consumers that have money to spend and lower taxes to afford my own health insurance. Then if I have any pennies left over I could spend some of my money at another small business of my choice. You can wish/hope in one hand and $h*t in the other and guess what you'll get? I hope and pray you change your tune...

And your [sic] going to need more funding for edukatshun [sic].

72 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:17:55pm

re: #55 albusteve

this is gonna be the last gasp for BO I think...a second stimulus, just think about that...it admits failure, it increases spending...they will spin the lingo all day, but there better be some tangible results or even people that have been quiet are gonna blow...this is a screwy deal and I would not have voted for it, but Brown must see it as a last ditch effort to get people back to work under the BO regime...I won't rag on him for it, he's trying to do what's best under terrible circumstances...the bloggers don't mean shit, they can rant all they want

Nah, it just means the first one wasn't big enough, as Krugman said from the beginning. Sucks to be right.

73 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:18:23pm

re: #68 Obdicut

That's... a little showboaty.


Really?

It reads to me like he wanted to get out of Dodge or something before the rest of the Republican Caucus could ride him out of the Senate on a rail....

74 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:18:32pm

re: #69 Lidane

I'm getting a little tired as government as entertainment, though. It's like watching a play where the actors ignore that the theater is on fire.

75 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:19:33pm

Fun times, watching The Bachelor. Interviews of girls from previous seasons. Interviews from girls booted earlier this season. Waahhh waahhhh. My wife is a highly intelligent person, but she watches this. I guess The Bachelor is her football.

76 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:19:46pm

re: #74 Obdicut

I'm getting a little tired as government as entertainment, though. It's like watching a play where the actors ignore that the theater is on fire.

At times it may seem that at entertainment is the only service the government is still providing us this days saddly...

77 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:20:11pm

I'm out. Night!
:)

78 palomino  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:20:36pm

Brown isn't stupid, and he probably wants to keep his job for more than two years. Throwing his lot in with the DeMints of the GOP isn't the way to do that in MA.

79 SpaceJesus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:21:00pm

freep defends joe stack, compares the IRS guy he killed in the attack with nazi clerks during world war 2.


[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

80 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:21:21pm

re: #73 jamesfirecat

Really?

It reads to me like he wanted to get out of Dodge or something before the rest of the Republican Caucus could ride him out of the Senate on a rail...

If he is popular in Mass, they won't be able to. A popular, moderate GOP incumbent won't lose a primary in a blue state. The general, maybe. But not the primary.

81 darthstar  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:21:28pm

re: #73 jamesfirecat

Really?

It reads to me like he wanted to get out of Dodge or something before the rest of the Republican Caucus could ride him out of the Senate on a rail...

If you had the choice of voting early and going out and facing reporters, or sitting in the Senate chambers and having Mitch McConnell shake his jowels at you for twenty minutes, what would you do?

82 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:21:32pm

re: #74 Obdicut

I'm getting a little tired as government as entertainment, though. It's like watching a play where the actors ignore that the theater is on fire.

no shit amigo...it gets more and more pathetic as the months go by...CPAC was the worst so far from the right...pay to play etc...like an elite party

83 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:21:43pm

For Goodness sakes.. I have figure skating from the Olympics on the Big screen!! It's the end of the world!
/

84 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:21:55pm

re: #65 albusteve

govt is dysfunctional...it's historic the way the donks have squandered their power play and have to beg the minority for votes...regardless of the TPs, it is a good thing voters are pissed off and vocal about it too...I would love to see Pelosi and Reid go down for ignoring the people and failing to lead...political maneuvering and covering your ass is not leadership...are you listening you thief, Ben Nelson?...you stupid beyond belief asshole?

No, not listening. Yes, stupid beyond belief. And, on the going down bit - probably.

85 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:22:07pm

re: #79 SpaceJesus

freep defends joe stack, compares the IRS guy he killed in the attack with nazi clerks during world war 2.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

Gee, a Vietnam vet with two tours is now a Nazi clerk. Nice.

86 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:22:47pm

re: #83 HoosierHoops

For Goodness sakes.. I have figure skating from the Olympics on the Big screen!! It's the end of the world!
/

You're missing the curling!

87 laZardo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:22:56pm

re: #83 HoosierHoops

For Goodness sakes.. I have figure skating from the Olympics on the Big screen!! It's the end of the world!
/

Blades of Glory was actually pretty funny.

88 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:22:59pm

re: #64 Charles

Scott Brown was actually the first Senator to vote for the bill.

A Republican trying to help the economy?!?! RINO!!!!
/Tea Party

89 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:23:13pm

re: #81 darthstar

If you had the choice of voting early and going out and facing reporters, or sitting in the Senate chambers and having Mitch McConnell shake his jowels at you for twenty minutes, what would you do?

Not saying I blame him, I just say it sounds less like show boating and more like not wanting to be in the same room as 40 people you've just made very mad at you....

90 darthstar  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:23:18pm

re: #83 HoosierHoops

For Goodness sakes.. I have figure skating from the Olympics on the Big screen!! It's the end of the world!
/

CURLING! On CNBC! USA v CHINA...USA MAKES MISTAKE IN FIRST END! I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS! ISN'T THIS EXCITING?

Okay...let's see if they can pull out of this.

91 idioma  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:23:26pm

I need to step away from that site now, nothing hurts my brain quite like the noise machine of self-declared experts ranting about something they don't know anything about.

"Rook to knight-4"
...
"King me!"

I don't know how ideologues feed themselves in this economy. Apparently they are doing well enough to have internet access.

92 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:23:44pm

re: #72 austin_blue

Nah, it just means the first one wasn't big enough, as Krugman said from the beginning. Sucks to be right.

The Dems pared the bill way back, thus the GOP's problem:

"With Republican leaders vowing opposition to Reid's version of the bill, it appeared that Democratic leaders had snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. And it was a pointless snarl. Democrats scuttled a bipartisan deal full of provisions they supported, just to pick a fight with Republicans. Republicans, furious that their good-faith negotiations had been ignored, opposed the pared-down version of the bill even though they favored its contents.

It was, in other words, just what Washington warned about 214 years ago when he cautioned against "the baneful effects of the Spirit of Party."

93 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:24:20pm

re: #90 darthstar

CURLING! On CNBC! USA v CHINA...USA MAKES MISTAKE IN FIRST END! I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS! ISN'T THIS EXCITING?

Okay...let's see if they can pull out of this.

Unleash the fury

94 palomino  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:24:40pm

re: #89 jamesfirecat

Not saying I blame him, I just say it sounds less like show boating and more like not wanting to be in the same room as 40 people you've just made very mad at you...

Four republicans voted with Brown. That's what's left of the moderate wing of the GOP.

95 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:24:41pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

A Republican trying to help the economy?!?! RINO!!!
/Tea Party

yes, more dysfunction...man,....whatever

96 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:25:23pm

re: #94 palomino

Four republicans voted with Brown. That's what's left of the moderate wing of the GOP.

I don't think that's exactly fair...the bill sucks

97 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:25:55pm

Some Tea Party organization gave him about $200,000.00.

SEIU gave him more than three times that amount.

It's in Bloomberg. Some date in January.

98 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:25:57pm

re: #86 NJDhockeyfan

You're missing the curling!

Curling is a bar sport! You know there should be beer and peanuts available? Right?
*wink*

99 laZardo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:26:05pm

re: #93 Soap_Man

Unleash the fury

Even in cruise control, you still have to steer.

/+1 internets for those that get the reference.

100 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:26:07pm

hey everybody...wha's up?

101 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:26:18pm

re: #94 palomino

Four republicans voted with Brown. That's what's left of the moderate wing of the GOP.

I would consider voting for this bill as proof of being moderate.

102 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:26:21pm

re: #94 palomino

Four republicans voted with Brown. That's what's left of the moderate wing of the GOP.

Let me guess...

Snow...

Collins....

Umm.....

Errr....

Ahhh....

Can I buy a vowel on the other two?

103 idioma  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:26:41pm

re: #99 laZardo

Even in cruise control, you still have to steer.

/+1 internets for those that get the reference.

Cruise Control for Awesome!!!!!1!

104 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:26:48pm

re: #100 PT Barnum

hey everybody...wha's up?

Scott Brown is a Marxist, apparently.

105 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:27:04pm

re: #100 PT Barnum

hey everybody...wha's up?

It's been a difficult night.

106 palomino  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:27:07pm

re: #96 albusteve

I don't think that's exactly fair...the bill sucks

Maybe not fair. But there really isn't much left to the GOP's moderate wing. What hasn't already disappeared is weak and scared, kinda like most of the Dems.

107 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:27:13pm

re: #98 HoosierHoops

Curling is a bar sport! You know there should be beer and peanuts available? Right?
*wink*

I would love to see one of those installed in the local bar.

108 captdiggs  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:27:15pm

Could this be the same Scott Brown that just a few weeks ago was being branded here as a "far right" "teaparty" candidate?
//

109 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:27:29pm

re: #96 albusteve

I don't think that's exactly fair...the bill sucks

So you liked the 80 billion dollar bipartisan bill better ?

110 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:28:01pm

re: #98 HoosierHoops

Curling is a bar sport! You know there should be beer and peanuts available? Right?
*wink*

I know the best ever saloon game was the old shuffleboard

111 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:28:30pm

re: #110 albusteve

I know the best ever saloon game was the old shuffleboard

Yes!

112 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:28:32pm

re: #105 austin_blue

sorry to hear that...I'm trying an experiment tonight...surfing the web on my 37" tv with my wii...not sure I'll do it again, but it certainly is interesting

113 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:29:27pm

re: #106 palomino

Maybe not fair. But there really isn't much left to the GOP's moderate wing. What hasn't already disappeared is weak and scared, kinda like most of the Dems.

I don't deny your observation but the moderates will vote in the fall, I hope...we will see then

114 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:29:29pm

re: #110 albusteve

I know the best ever saloon game was the old shuffleboard

Tabletop or the floor variety? I ask because one of my favorite Chicago bars has the tabletop shuffleboard. I love it. (I can't imagine a saloon having the floor game, but you never know.)

115 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:29:46pm

re: #107 NJDhockeyfan

I would love to see one of those installed in the local bar.

It's a perfect bar sport...Bring your broom..We have beer and finger foods..
It's perfect as a bar sport...

116 Stanghazi  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:29:55pm

re: #91 idioma

I need to step away from that site now, nothing hurts my brain quite like the noise machine of self-declared experts ranting about something they don't know anything about.

"Rook to knight-4"
...
"King me!"

I don't know how ideologues feed themselves in this economy. Apparently they are doing well enough to have internet access.

Here's another, the master plan:

Hey, it's only $15B, some of the other GOPs wanted $85B. I'll give you a pass this time Senator, I think most of us would rather see you give this little one to the Dems, than I much bigger one. Good strategy, give them this, so they can't say you ONLY SAY NO when you do VOTE NO ON OBAMA'S HEALTHCARE Bill. Or, convince them to use ALL the GOP ideas, and mostly none of their own. Debate the President if necessary at Obama's photo-op, HC summit trap. Don't give in, you can do it, if necessary, you MUST JUST SAY NO! Good luck! Go get'm!

117 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:30:39pm

re: #115 HoosierHoops

It's a perfect bar sport...Bring your broom..We have beer and finger foods..
It's perfect as a bar sport...

The bar fights would sure get more interesting.

118 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:30:39pm

re: #102 jamesfirecat

LOL!!

119 darthstar  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:31:02pm

re: #110 albusteve

I know the best ever saloon game was the old shuffleboard

Sorry...but I'll stick with good old fashioned 8-ball, call shot. I used to tend bar at a place that had a shuffle-board...it was fun, but I could drink for free all night playing pool.

120 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:31:04pm

well my eyes are starting to burn...back to the PC

121 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:32:00pm

re: #118 Rightwingconspirator

LOL!!

Well I'd be willing to bet it wasn't McCain given the way he's being flanked from the right at the moment when it comes to the Arizona Primary....

122 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:32:48pm

re: #109 avanti

So you liked the 80 billion dollar bipartisan bill better ?

of course not, that version sucks too...what is it with you?...don't you get it that the feds cannot create jobs, only save govt jobs?...where has most of the first stimulus gone to?...to beefing up state funds and stalling the inevitable...look what the unions have done to CA and Illinois and look where the federal money went

123 idioma  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:33:06pm

Riddle me this Fundie-nomics:

"RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE lowering taxes is the ONLY WAY TO MAKE JOBS!!!"

Okay, so let's try that math, we lower taxes to zero, and all government spending is deficit spending, which you also don't like. With 1980's Soviet level inflation, at what point do you expect to see companies start hiring?

124 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:33:12pm

re: #120 PT Barnum

well my eyes are starting to burn...back to the PC

One of these days, it'll work.

125 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:33:23pm

re: #117 NJDhockeyfan

The bar fights would sure get more interesting.

All I ask for in life is the Hanson Brothers going postal during the Ice skating contest.. I ask for so little....

126 darthstar  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:33:31pm

re: #121 jamesfirecat

Well I'd be willing to bet it wasn't McCain given the way he's being flanked from the right at the moment when it comes to the Arizona Primary...

You mean by former Congresswoman JD Hayworth?

127 Racer X  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:33:38pm

What was in the new health care bill proposed by Obama today?

128 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:33:47pm

re: #123 idioma

Taxes down to zero is too far down.

129 idioma  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:33:48pm

re: #116 Stanley Sea

I wish it hurt to be stupid.

130 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:33:56pm

Nate Silver has an interesting take on all this:

Is 56 is the New 60?

131 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:34:36pm

re: #111 austin_blue

Yes!

beer in one hand...puck in the other....aiming, planning...lights glowing down the board...then a subtle puuuush

132 darthstar  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:35:10pm

re: #127 Racer X

What was in the new health care bill proposed by Obama today?

Something the Republican proposal (if it exists) doesn't have...content.

133 Stanghazi  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:35:30pm

re: #121 jamesfirecat

Well I'd be willing to bet it wasn't McCain given the way he's being flanked from the right at the moment when it comes to the Arizona Primary...

McCain voted no.

Republican Sens. Olympia Snowe (Maine), Susan Collins (Maine), Kit Bond (Mo.) and George Voinovich (Ohio) joined Brown (Mass.) in voting with the bulk of Democrats to end debate.

Don't think you would have guessed Voinovich.

134 laZardo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:35:38pm

re: #127 Racer X

What was in the new health care bill proposed by Obama today?

SOCIALIST HEALTHCURR.

/ O:

135 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:35:49pm

re: #114 Soap_Man

Tabletop or the floor variety? I ask because one of my favorite Chicago bars has the tabletop shuffleboard. I love it. (I can't imagine a saloon having the floor game, but you never know.)

the old forty foot long mini board

136 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:35:58pm

re: #127 Racer X

What was in the new health care bill proposed by Obama today?

The main new trick was capping the 20-30% rate increases by the insurance companies until the new co'opts are up and running.

137 idioma  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:36:56pm

re: #128 jaunte

Taxes down to zero is too far down.

At some point taxes are necessary, the GOP is still trying to convince people that lowering taxes is some kind of miracle elixer that fixes everything from missile defense to yellow teeth.

We started this new century by funding two wars without any budgeting, and used China as a municipal Master Card, and then all of the policy makers claimed shock when lowering taxes didn't prevent a meltdown of our deregulated financial system. You'd think it would take some real genius to fuck things up this badly.

138 darthstar  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:37:10pm

re: #133 Stanley Sea

Don't think you would have guessed Voinovich.

McCain's a coward...sure, he was a war hero, but he gave up his integrity for party approval a long time ago.

139 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:37:11pm

re: #126 darthstar

You mean by former Congresswoman JD Hayworth?

Wow, I have no words.

I mean with Fox a mistake is often because they want to sell some narrative like saying Mark Foley was a democrat rather than Republican, or making certain events seem to have a greater turnout then they actually did.

Who fell asleep at the wheel and made that mistake?

140 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:38:01pm

re: #133 Stanley Sea

Don't think you would have guessed Voinovich.

I didn't even know there was a senator named Voinovich....

141 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:38:01pm

re: #131 albusteve

beer in one hand...puck in the other...aiming, planning...lights glowing down the board...then a subtle puuush

And a big ass tube of cornmeal that looks like a tube of powdered parmesan cheese. Great fun.

142 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:38:36pm

Monday Mourning Meltdown

MP3 Audio

- Guv't Mule
143 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:38:51pm

re: #95 albusteve

whatever


Whatever

Youtube Video
144 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:38:53pm

re: #137 idioma

Our system favors those politicians who can shift costs to other people, even future people.

145 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:39:00pm

re: #136 avanti

The main new trick was capping the 20-30% rate increases by the insurance companies until the new co'opts are up and running.

they could have done that months ago if they thought it was necessary...what an orgy of money lust

146 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:39:16pm

re: #137 idioma

At some point taxes are necessary, the GOP is still trying to convince people that lowering taxes is some kind of miracle elixer that fixes everything from missile defense to yellow teeth.

We started this new century by funding two wars without any budgeting, and used China as a municipal Master Card, and then all of the policy makers claimed shock when lowering taxes didn't prevent a meltdown of our deregulated financial system. You'd think it would take some real genius to fuck things up this badly.

It's that genius Bush's fault!

147 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:39:30pm

re: #141 austin_blue

And a big ass tube of cornmeal that looks like a tube of powdered parmesan cheese. Great fun.

Cornmeal works great for a massage. Run it on like massage gel, and work it in. Like silk.

148 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:39:35pm

re: #127 Racer X

What was in the new health care bill proposed by Obama today?


Here's a
link...

149 idioma  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:40:00pm

re: #144 jaunte

Our system favors those politicians who can shift costs to other people, even future people.

Which is why the GOP counts unborn fetuses as constituents.

150 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:40:01pm

re: #143 Killgore Trout

Whatever

[Video]

heh, I remember that

151 darthstar  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:40:32pm

re: #142 Bagua

Monday Mourning Meltdown

[Video]
- Guv't Mule


Rec'd for the Mule...my favorite song to see live...Thorzine Shuffle

Youtube Video
152 Racer X  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:40:55pm

re: #132 darthstar

Something the Republican proposal (if it exists) doesn't have...content.

Thanks.

From your link:

the President has now put forth a proposal that incorporates the work the House and the Senate have done and adds additional ideas from Republican members of Congress.

153 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:40:56pm

re: #147 cliffster

Cornmeal works great for a massage. Run it on like massage gel, and work it in. Like silk.

Ummm....

154 idioma  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:42:04pm

re: #146 austin_blue

It's that genius Bush's fault!

It doesn't takes real genius to be born on the summit and claim you climbed the mountain. It takes genius to silence the droves of people that cry: "Bullshit!"

155 idioma  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:43:05pm

re: #148 avanti

Still no public option? Why bother.

156 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:43:11pm

Here it is! The first salvo from an official wingnut, Michelle Malkin:


The $15B Porkulus II cloture roll call vote: Scott Brown, the Voinovich pay-off & business as usual
By Michelle Malkin • February 22, 2010 10:33 PM

157 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:43:57pm

re: #145 albusteve

they could have done that months ago if they thought it was necessary...what an orgy of money lust

Obama should have got involved much earlier. Now, he's taken the two bills, tweaked them a bit as a starting point and will ask for GOP input and it'll all be on C Span. They'll say no way, and the Dems can try and ram it through saying they tried,

158 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:44:13pm

re: #105 austin_blue

It's been a difficult night.

What's wrong?

159 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:44:25pm

re: #154 idioma

It doesn't takes real genius to be born on the summit and claim you climbed the mountain. It takes genius to silence the droves of people that cry: "Bullshit!"

I think "America the book, democracy inaction" says it best

"George W. Bush was the son of a previous president who somehow managed to run as an outsider, we're still trying to figure out how the f**k that worked."

Or something along those lines...

160 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:44:53pm

re: #68 Obdicut

That's... a little showboaty.

Did he use jazz hands? I hope he used jazz hands.

161 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:45:15pm

re: #155 idioma

Expanded Medicaid and Medicare.

162 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:45:59pm

Note to Olympic Coaches....Don't have your skaters dance to Dream the impossible dream.. It's a Downer dude.. And ironic is lost on you..Jeez...
Must the Hoopster now start coaching the Olympics?
//

163 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:46:03pm

re: #152 Racer X

The biggest GOP fear is Obama will agree to a lot of their idea's like tort reform and they'll still oppose the bill.

164 laZardo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:46:35pm

brb lunch.

165 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:47:11pm

Now that Malkin has let loose they're all going to follow. The hair's gonna fly for the next 24 hours. That's being RT'd right now over at #TCOT.

166 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:47:51pm

re: #152 Racer X

I'd like to see the plan address the service costs:

Karen Ignagni, president of America's Health Insurance Plans, said the White House's focus on insurance rates instead of the underlying prices of doctors, hospitals and drug manufacturers is akin to saying that "we can only look at what the price of the car is at the dealer's lot," without considering the price of steel and other materials.
167 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:48:30pm

re: #164 laZardo

brb lunch.

What? I finally figured out what's wrong with you. You eat lunch in the dead of the night. Now it all makes sense.

168 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:48:40pm

re: #155 idioma

Still no public option? Why bother.

I don't get the big deal over the PO. CBO scores it to cost MORE than most of the private plans.

169 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:48:51pm

re: #155 idioma

Still no public option? Why bother.

No, even the public option is alive again, although I don't expect we'll get it.

170 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:49:00pm

OH man, I just saw this on the comments on Brown's blog thing:

you were sent to wash to be the 41st repub senator NOT THE 61FT DEM SENATOR!!!.

Emphasis mine.

No wonder he feels he can vote no and get away with it. He's a goddamn giant.

171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:49:23pm

Hey Scott! We're from the government; we're here to help you.

I hate these people more each day.

Not enough to fly a plane into a fucking building... but, you know what I mean.

172 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:49:29pm

re: #168 Conservative Moonbat

But what they haven't scored, and should, is the price of doing nothing.

173 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:49:32pm

re: #157 avanti

Obama should have got involved much earlier. Now, he's taken the two bills, tweaked them a bit as a starting point and will ask for GOP input and it'll all be on C Span. They'll say no way, and the Dems can try and ram it through saying they tried,

yes, high school strategy...setting up a blame game...the whole thing has been a mess from the beginning imo...writing the original bills behind closed doors etc, last minute votes, the Nelson thing in the senate....it all stinks...there should have been months of open forums with public input etc...the sheer audacity of the donks has really turned off a lot of voters

174 Racer X  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:49:59pm

Madder Mortem - Where Dream & Day Collide

Vimeo

OK, this one kicks ass.
Crank it up.

175 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:50:13pm

re: #170 Obdicut

OH man, I just saw this on the comments on Brown's blog thing:

Emphasis mine.

No wonder he feels he can vote no and get away with it. He's a goddamn giant.

Not to mention he's apparently so powerful he can count as TWO democratic votes!

176 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:50:15pm

re: #158 Dark_Falcon

What's wrong?

That thread two back was a mess.

177 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:50:24pm

re: #163 avanti

The biggest GOP fear is Obama will agree to a lot of their idea's like tort reform and they'll still oppose the bill.

Been there, done that:

[Link: www.time.com...]

"So, right there in the Cabinet Room, the President put a proposal on the table, according to two people who were present. Obama said he was willing to curb malpractice awards, a move long sought by Republicans that is certain to bring strong opposition from the trial lawyers who fund the Democratic Party.
What, he wanted to know, did the Republicans have to offer in return?"

178 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:50:40pm

re: #163 avanti

The biggest GOP fear is Obama will agree to a lot of their idea's like tort reform and they'll still oppose the bill.

Why? It's obvious the country is overwhelmingly against this behemoth bill. Tort reform won't change many minds on this bad bill.

179 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:51:24pm

re: #171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey Scott! We're from the government; we're here to help you.

I hate these people more each day.

Not enough to fly a plane into a fucking building... but, you know what I mean.

I do

180 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:52:44pm

re: #162 HoosierHoops

Note to Olympic Coaches...Don't have your skaters dance to Dream the impossible dream.. It's a Downer dude.. And ironic is lost on you..Jeez...
Must the Hoopster now start coaching the Olympics?
//

I like this Russian's pairs outfit. She looks hotter than a rocket.

181 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:53:12pm

re: #163 avanti

The biggest GOP fear is Obama will agree to a lot of their idea's like tort reform and they'll still oppose the bill.

The problem for the GOP is that if they agree to any sort of compromise, even one that favors them. the teabaggers are going to scream "RINO!" at them. Someone (probably a Senator not up for reelection this year) needs to explain to them how divided government works.

182 wiffersnapper  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:53:13pm

Tissue for your issue, teabaggers?

183 Merkin  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:53:36pm

re: #166 jaunte

"Karen Ignagni, president of America's Health Insurance Plans, said the White House's focus on insurance rates instead of the underlying prices of doctors, hospitals and drug manufacturers is akin to saying that "we can only look at what the price of the car is at the dealer's lot," without considering the price of steel and other materials."

If the insurance companies have no control over the prices of medical care what do they do to justify the money they make?

184 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:53:57pm

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

The problem for the GOP is that if they agree to any sort of compromise, even one that favors them. the teabaggers are going to scream "RINO!" at them. Someone (probably a Senator not up for reelection this year) needs to explain to them how divided government works.

BOLSHEVIK PLOT!

185 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:53:58pm

re: #171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey Scott! We're from the government; we're here to help you.

I hate these people more each day.

Not enough to fly a plane into a fucking building... but, you know what I mean.

Citibank lost my business. Years of putting tens of thousands of dollars a year on their card - American Airlines miles. Last November, got a notice saying they were raising interest rate to 30%. Not shit, 30%. Never a late payment, perfect customer. I cancelled, now it's SWA miles, which I prefer anyways.

186 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:54:01pm

I gotta say as a newly minted Bay Stater, I could learn to like Scott Brown.

187 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:54:37pm

re: #154 idioma

It doesn't takes real genius to be born on the summit and claim you climbed the mountain. It takes genius to silence the droves of people that cry: "Bullshit!"

Ah, no. Winning the Presidency is a genuine achievement, no matter who your father is. Brother Jeb made is to being governor of Florida, itself quite an accomplishment, and brother Neil has spent his career kicking around from one business venture to another. .

188 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:54:46pm

re: #180 austin_blue

I like this Russian's pairs outfit. She looks hotter than a rocket.

Geez. Syntax, AB, syntax.

Mea culpa.

189 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:54:59pm

re: #178 NJDhockeyfan

Why? It's obvious the country is overwhelmingly against this behemoth bill. Tort reform won't change many minds on this bad bill.

lipstick on a pig...if this bill passes, the donks will be in a soupline somewhere....they just hope that the GOP will resue them so they don't have to come out against BO...what a fucked up way to pass a bill....BO is off his ricker and he has to total maniacs working for him in Reid and Pelosi...between the two of them they could fuck up a lifetime of wet dreams...all three gotta go imo

190 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:55:33pm

re: #183 Merkin

Health insurance companies are rent seekers.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

191 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:55:45pm

OT: I don't remember who I told about this, but I'll provide an update.

Got some good news today. There was some concern that my girlfriend's dad had a brain tumor. He was having odd symptoms, and the docs said that might be the culprit after eliminating other possibilities.

The MRI results came back and no tumor. He actually has a very rare (but completely treatable) pituitary gland defect.

Combine that with good news from work and I'm having a fine day. :)

192 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:55:45pm

Socialist
Communist
Oligarhy!
Trotskyite
Transnational

Bolshevik
Romney (Mitt)
Oligarhy!
Welfare State
New-World-Order!

193 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:55:48pm

re: #183 Merkin

I don't know what they do, other than spreading the risk into a manageable pool. Something that a government agency could do if it was populated by efficient managers. However I think most of healthcare costs are in the services.

194 palomino  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:55:48pm

re: #102 jamesfirecat

Let me guess...

Snow...

Collins...

Can I buy a vowel on the other two?

You're gonna need a LOT of vowels, at least for Voinovich. Somehow Kit Bond made it in there too.

On the Dem side, one defection: the other Nelson (D-FL) voted against. Go figure.

195 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:55:58pm

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

The problem for the GOP is that if they agree to any sort of compromise, even one that favors them. the teabaggers are going to scream "RINO!" at them. Someone (probably a Senator not up for reelection this year) needs to explain to them how divided government works.

why should anyone compromise and vote for a bad bill?...for favor?....why?

196 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:56:01pm

re: #185 cliffster

Citibank lost my business. Years of putting tens of thousands of dollars a year on their card - American Airlines miles. Last November, got a notice saying they were raising interest rate to 30%. Not shit, 30%. Never a late payment, perfect customer. I cancelled, now it's SWA miles, which I prefer anyways.

A friend pointed out, if I never carry a balance, what difference does it make? It's the principal of the matter, that's what. And, on top of that, I recognize that I am fortunate to have the flexibility that I have to tell credit card companies to fuck off.

197 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:56:03pm

re: #185 cliffster

Citibank lost my business. Years of putting tens of thousands of dollars a year on their card - American Airlines miles. Last November, got a notice saying they were raising interest rate to 30%. Not shit, 30%. Never a late payment, perfect customer. I cancelled, now it's SWA miles, which I prefer anyways.

Can you afford to pay off your credit card every month, or get a plastectomy and go cash only?

198 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:56:12pm

re: #178 NJDhockeyfan

Why? It's obvious the country is overwhelmingly against this behemoth bill. Tort reform won't change many minds on this bad bill.

Honestly, the country wanted health care reform, and we still need it. The right just spread so much fear with their BS, they scared the crap out of the public. If you recall, Obama campaigned on health care reform, but he was naive enough to think that politics was played fair.

199 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:56:21pm

re: #180 austin_blue

I like this Russian's pairs outfit. She looks hotter than a rocket.

Smoking hot.. The American team coming up is awesome..They grew up next door and danced since they were 13.. Went to Michigan together...
Let's hope they do well tonight! USA!

200 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:56:22pm

OT: More Wingnut Craziness:

Bill In Florida House Outlaws Abortion, Direct Challenge to Roe

A bill has been filed in the Florida House that would ban all abortions with the sole exemption to save the life of the mother, a direct constitutional challenge to Roe vs. Wade. The Jacksonville Observer reports:

Sponsored by Rep. Charles Van Zant, R-Palatka, HB 1097 would criminalize most abortions now allowed under state and federal law, increase penalties for physicians who perform such services and require pregnant women to receive more information on adoption. The bill was filed Wednesday, the same day that right to life groups made the trek to Tallahassee to meet lawmakers and rally support.

The bill has no companion legislation in the Senate. Planned Parenthood of Florida told the Tallahassee Democrat the bill is "totally unconstitutional."

"This is the most rigid and inflexible ban on abortion in the United States," said [Stephanie Kunkel, state director of Planned Parenthood]. "Not only does it ban abortion, it also has absolutely no exceptions for rape or incest."
----

201 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:56:35pm

re: #176 austin_blue

That thread two back was a mess.

Yeah, I just took a look. Looks like the usual AGW flame wars.

202 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:57:04pm

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

The problem for the GOP is that if they agree to any sort of compromise, even one that favors them. the teabaggers are going to scream "RINO!" at them. Someone (probably a Senator not up for reelection this year) needs to explain to them how divided government works.

Why? It's abundantly clear The Tea Party is not swinging elections. Virginia and NJ governorships were won by running towards the middle. Brown won with a great campaign aided by Cloakly running off a cliff. NY23 ran the right Tea Bag candidate and lost. The Tea Party is like a hollow drum - it makes a big noise, but look - nothing inside!

What's going to sway Americans at the polls are people willing to address problems instead of sticking their heads in the sand, yelling about no one wanting to play and hoping the other guy loses.

203 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:57:08pm

re: #198 avanti

Honestly, the country wanted health care reform, and we still need it. The right just spread so much fear with their BS, they scared the crap out of the public. If you recall, Obama campaigned on health care reform, but he was naive enough to think that politics was played fair.

Even McCain had to promise some form of HCR.

204 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:57:32pm

re: #189 albusteve

lipstick on a pig...if this bill passes, the donks will be in a soupline somewhere...they just hope that the GOP will resue them so they don't have to come out against BO...what a fucked up way to pass a bill...BO is off his ricker and he has to total maniacs working for him in Reid and Pelosi...between the two of them they could fuck up a lifetime of wet dreams...all three gotta go imo

Actually, tort reform is a BIG gift from the Dems. It hits one of their primary funding bases square in the nuts. The fact that they have put it on the table is important indeed.

205 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:57:39pm

re: #192 Gus 802

Socialist
Communist
Oligarhy!
Trotskyite
Transnational

Bolshevik
Romney (Mitt)
Oligarhy!
Welfare State
New-World-Order!

Put down the chalk, Mr. Beck.

206 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:57:46pm

re: #203 iceweasel

Even McCain had to promise some form of HCR.

Yeah, he was Mr. Clinic on the campaign trail.

207 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:58:07pm

re: #189 albusteve

lipstick on a pig...if this bill passes, the donks will be in a soupline somewhere...they just hope that the GOP will resue them so they don't have to come out against BO...what a fucked up way to pass a bill...BO is off his ricker and he has to total maniacs working for him in Reid and Pelosi...between the two of them they could fuck up a lifetime of wet dreams...all three gotta go imo

I search and search for the right words to use to describe this stuff, and then there you go...

208 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:58:43pm

re: #195 albusteve

why should anyone compromise and vote for a bad bill?...for favor?...why?

70% of Americans support health care reform of some kind.

209 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:58:49pm

re: #205 Dark_Falcon

Put down the chalk, Mr. Beck.

Put the chalk on the ground and slowly step away from the chalk backwards!

/

210 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:59:01pm

re: #200 iceweasel

OT: More Wingnut Craziness:

Bill In Florida House Outlaws Abortion, Direct Challenge to Roe

A bill has been filed in the Florida House that would ban all abortions with the sole exemption to save the life of the mother, a direct constitutional challenge to Roe vs. Wade. The Jacksonville Observer reports:

Sponsored by Rep. Charles Van Zant, R-Palatka, HB 1097 would criminalize most abortions now allowed under state and federal law, increase penalties for physicians who perform such services and require pregnant women to receive more information on adoption. The bill was filed Wednesday, the same day that right to life groups made the trek to Tallahassee to meet lawmakers and rally support.

The bill has no companion legislation in the Senate. Planned Parenthood of Florida told the Tallahassee Democrat the bill is "totally unconstitutional."

"This is the most rigid and inflexible ban on abortion in the United States," said [Stephanie Kunkel, state director of Planned Parenthood]. "Not only does it ban abortion, it also has absolutely no exceptions for rape or incest."
---

How the FUCK do they think a state can pass something that stands directly in conflict with the supreme court?

Tenthers?

211 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:59:02pm

re: #183 Merkin

"Karen Ignagni, president of America's Health Insurance Plans, said the White House's focus on insurance rates instead of the underlying prices of doctors, hospitals and drug manufacturers is akin to saying that "we can only look at what the price of the car is at the dealer's lot," without considering the price of steel and other materials."

If the insurance companies have no control over the prices of medical care what do they do to justify the money they make?

One company that wants to raise rates in one state by 20 plus percent made 400 million last year. They are very profitable and hate the idea of any lower cost competition from co'opts or the like..

212 idioma  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:59:02pm

re: #161 Obdicut

Expanded Medicaid and Medicare.

And every time I see someone close to retirement age holding signs that say things like "keep the gov't out of my Medicaid!" all I see is "Fuck You! I got mine!"

213 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 7:59:32pm

re: #151 darthstar

Yep, saw them Friday night. Amazing show. Been posting from their 2010 By A Thread tour.

Broke Down on the Brazos

MP3 Audio

- Gov't Mule
214 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:00:55pm

re: #198 avanti

Honestly, the country wanted health care reform, and we still need it. The right just spread so much fear with their BS, they scared the crap out of the public. If you recall, Obama campaigned on health care reform, but he was naive enough to think that politics was played fair.

oh for gods sake...what a pathetic sore loser...BO, fair himself?...don't make me laugh....he was way too full of himself....he's shot now and for nothing...the GOP has done exactly what they were voted into office for...your touchy, feely, unicorn stuff is silly...BO is just a guy, and not very smart at that...everything seems to mystify him

215 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:01:01pm

re: #200 iceweasel

OT: More Wingnut Craziness:

Bill In Florida House Outlaws Abortion, Direct Challenge to Roe

A bill has been filed in the Florida House that would ban all abortions with the sole exemption to save the life of the mother, a direct constitutional challenge to Roe vs. Wade. The Jacksonville Observer reports:

Sponsored by Rep. Charles Van Zant, R-Palatka, HB 1097 would criminalize most abortions now allowed under state and federal law, increase penalties for physicians who perform such services and require pregnant women to receive more information on adoption. The bill was filed Wednesday, the same day that right to life groups made the trek to Tallahassee to meet lawmakers and rally support.

The bill has no companion legislation in the Senate. Planned Parenthood of Florida told the Tallahassee Democrat the bill is "totally unconstitutional."

"This is the most rigid and inflexible ban on abortion in the United States," said [Stephanie Kunkel, state director of Planned Parenthood]. "Not only does it ban abortion, it also has absolutely no exceptions for rape or incest."
---

There goes some tax money taking that law to the Supreme's to strike down.

216 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:01:26pm

re: #198 avanti

Honestly, the country wanted health care reform, and we still need it. The right just spread so much fear with their BS, they scared the crap out of the public. If you recall, Obama campaigned on health care reform, but he was naive enough to think that politics was played fair.

You can't blame the right for the low support for this bill. This bill belongs to Obama & the Dems and they have nobody to blame but themselves for the lack of support from the rest of the country.

217 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:01:42pm

re: #202 Jeff In Ohio

Why? It's abundantly clear The Tea Party is not swinging elections. Virginia and NJ governorships were won by running towards the middle. Brown won with a great campaign aided by Cloakly running off a cliff. NY23 ran the right Tea Bag candidate and lost. The Tea Party is like a hollow drum - it makes a big noise, but look - nothing inside!

What's going to sway Americans at the polls are people willing to address problems instead of sticking their heads in the sand, yelling about no one wanting to play and hoping the other guy loses.

Quite Concur.

218 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:02:09pm

I want to know who has a hard-on for Tom Cruise at AMC.

Forrest Gump for how many days?

219 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:02:25pm

re: #192 Gus 802

That's classic! Thanks for the belly laugh!

220 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:02:31pm

re: #204 austin_blue

Actually, tort reform is a BIG gift from the Dems. It hits one of their primary funding bases square in the nuts. The fact that they have put it on the table is important indeed.

it is...I will give them credit for that (only because you called it out tho)....heh

221 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:02:33pm

re: #210 jamesfirecat

How the FUCK do they think a state can pass something that stands directly in conflict with the supreme court?

Tenthers?

This happens all the time. Wingnut Religious Right fuckers pass laws criminalising abortion at the local level, solely to force the case to go to SCOTUS in hopes of getting Roe v Wade overturned.
This one isn't likely to make it that far-- it won't pass in FL because it doesn't have Senate support. But this is a tried and true strategy on the war on reproductive rights in this country, which is ongoing.

North Dakota did something similar; many states have over the years.

222 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:04:55pm

re: #215 avanti

There goes some tax money taking that law to the Supreme's to strike down.

Wasters. There's another category of the damned from Dante's Inferno.

223 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:05:58pm

re: #200 iceweasel


"This is the most rigid and inflexible ban on abortion in the United States," said [Stephanie Kunkel, state director of Planned Parenthood]. "Not only does it ban abortion, it also has absolutely no exceptions for rape or incest."

Unbelievable.

224 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:05:59pm

Republican Ideas Included in the President's Proposal

225 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:06:03pm

re: #214 albusteve

oh for gods sake...what a pathetic sore loser...BO, fair himself?...don't make me laugh...he was way too full of himself...he's shot now and for nothing...the GOP has done exactly what they were voted into office for...your touchy, feely, unicorn stuff is silly...BO is just a guy, and not very smart at that...everything seems to mystify him

There you go again with Obama's not being bright. You really need to attack his policies, not his intellect. The guy is not some BA graduate from a community college..

226 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:06:08pm

re: #221 iceweasel

This happens all the time. Wingnut Religious Right fuckers pass laws criminalising abortion at the local level, solely to force the case to go to SCOTUS in hopes of getting Roe v Wade overturned.
This one isn't likely to make it that far-- it won't pass in FL because it doesn't have Senate support. But this is a tried and true strategy on the war on reproductive rights in this country, which is ongoing.

North Dakota did something similar; many states have over the years.

And we all get to pay for the court costs of them showing the world their collective ass. [grumble]

227 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:06:12pm

re: #206 Gus 802

Yeah, he was Mr. Clinic on the campaign trail.

McCain is also lying now about his campaign suspension in September:

McCain Rewrites History, Falsely Claims Bush Asked Him To Suspend His Campaign In Sept. ‘08

I used to really like McCain- like ten years ago. It's pretty disgusting to see what he's become.

228 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:06:38pm

re: #218 MandyManners

I want to know who has a hard-on for Tom Cruise at AMC.

Forrest Gump for how many days?

Scientologist shrimps... Shrimp cocktail... Shrimp Poboys...

229 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:06:40pm

I'm not from around here,” he said. “I’m from Massachusetts.” but a real square little fellow.

50 quatloos if you can place this.

Good night all.

230 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:07:04pm

re: #208 Conservative Moonbat

70% of Americans support health care reform of some kind.

yeah, and over 60% of Americans oppose this crap of a bill...HCR is nothing new..everybody knoes it needs to be reformed, and it will...some people said the GOP ruined the chance of a lifetime...bullshit, a bill will be passed...probably just less of a piece of crap...the whole thing is a clusterfuck and BOs TV show is not the fix...he does not give a shit about the people, it's the legislation he's after...spit

231 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:07:45pm

re: #201 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, I just took a look. Looks like the usual AGW flame wars.

I like LVQ, but Walter's passive aggression and Bagua's intransigence absolutely pushes his buttons. I understand. AGW deniers should just stand up and say "I think it's all bullshit". This picking around the edges and poking at ephemera doesn't address the real problem:

We are in a world of shit. What are we going to do about it?

232 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:07:53pm

re: #227 iceweasel

McCain is also lying now about his campaign suspension in September:

McCain Rewrites History, Falsely Claims Bush Asked Him To Suspend His Campaign In Sept. ‘08

I used to really like McCain- like ten years ago. It's pretty disgusting to see what he's become.

Yeah, I prefer the McCain of 2000. He's also reinventing himself (again) for his campaign against JD Hayworth. Although I have to admit that Hayworth is a pre-packaged lunatic.

233 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:08:05pm

re: #230 albusteve

I suspect the opposition rate has more to do with the job various sides did selling and framing than actual informed public assent >

234 palomino  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:08:20pm

re: #113 albusteve

I don't deny your observation but the moderates will vote in the fall, I hope...we will see then

I'm afraid this will just embolden the far right of the GOP as well as the tea partiers. Which is no recipe for long-term GOP stability or responsible governance.

I just don't see how this helps moderates in the GOP. They will continue to have little say in the direction of the party.

235 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:08:49pm

re: #227 iceweasel

McCain is also lying now about his campaign suspension in September:

McCain Rewrites History, Falsely Claims Bush Asked Him To Suspend His Campaign In Sept. ‘08

I used to really like McCain- like ten years ago. It's pretty disgusting to see what he's become.

John McCain, from Maverick Reformer to Reformed Maverick!

236 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:08:52pm

re: #227 iceweasel

McCain is also lying now about his campaign suspension in September:

McCain Rewrites History, Falsely Claims Bush Asked Him To Suspend His Campaign In Sept. ‘08

I used to really like McCain- like ten years ago. It's pretty disgusting to see what he's become.

Well, to be truthful, I asked him. I felt he was embarrassing me, so I called and he agreed. Real nice guy, John McCain.

237 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:09:19pm

re: #230 albusteve

yeah, and over 60% of Americans oppose this crap of a bill...HCR is nothing new..everybody knoes it needs to be reformed, and it will...some people said the GOP ruined the chance of a lifetime...bullshit, a bill will be passed...probably just less of a piece of crap...the whole thing is a clusterfuck and BOs TV show is not the fix...he does not give a shit about the people, it's the legislation he's after...spit

ODS Much steve?

238 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:09:20pm

re: #225 avanti

Obama does not have the intellect to get a good handle on the grand sweep of history, nor on the way the world really works, and he is often led astray by illusions of an ideal world.

2nd class intellect at best IMHO.

239 Merkin  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:09:40pm

re: #193 jaunte

But how much risk do they take on. Corporations with as few as 200 employees are allowed to accept the risk of self-insuring health insurance. This implies the pool doesn't have to be very large to spread the risk.

The studies I have seen say single payer would save 300 to 400 billion dollars a year. If we could reduce the costs to what Canada's are with their single payer at the Provencal level it would be twice that.

Do we owe the insurance companies a business free of public single payer competition if they are so bad at what they do? So inefficient.

240 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:09:41pm

re: #216 NJDhockeyfan

You can't blame the right for the low support for this bill. This bill belongs to Obama & the Dems and they have nobody to blame but themselves for the lack of support from the rest of the country.

No. You can blame millions of dollars in lobbying money.

"They who have the gold make the rules."

241 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:10:03pm

re: #238 Ojoe

Obama does not have the intellect to get a good handle on the grand sweep of history, nor on the way the world really works, and he is often led astray by illusions of an ideal world.

2nd class intellect at best IMHO.

hahaha whatever

242 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:10:03pm

So in reality this is a good thing right? there was much gnashing of teeth when the man was elected, how he was a huge fan of the tea party set, how he was the worst thing to happen to government since President Bush or the Texas School Board.

But I read many of the comments up-thread and everyone still seems to think the guy is a right wing nut job. I see him as a Senator from Massachusetts, who was pushed by the right wing fringe but elected by the center...much like our current President was pushed by the left wing fringe and elected by the center.

If he votes for jobs and against the health care boondoggle, he does his job.

Now, let's get Sestak past Specter! (so Toomey has an easier run in November)

243 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:10:05pm

re: #235 jamesfirecat

John McCain, from Maverick Reformer to Reformed Maverick!

The reason they call him a maverick is because he's unruly and ill-tempered.

244 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:10:37pm

re: #238 Ojoe

Obama does not have the intellect to get a good handle on the grand sweep of history, nor on the way the world really works, and he is often led astray by illusions of an ideal world.

2nd class intellect at best IMHO.

on what do you base that?

245 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:10:43pm

re: #238 Ojoe

Takes one to know one!!!

246 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:10:52pm

re: #244 PT Barnum

his prejudices :P

247 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:11:04pm

re: #243 PT Barnum

The reason they call him a maverick is because he's unruly and ill-tempered.

also, he's constantly changing his positions on everything! Mavericky!

248 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:11:38pm

re: #225 avanti

There you go again with Obama's not being bright. You really need to attack his policies, not his intellect. The guy is not some BA graduate from a community college..

he's a dope politically...I don't care about his other towering attributes...if his intellect was sharper maybe he would quit making an idiot out of himself....he has no feel for the will of the people....even his own supporters are displeased with his stupidity, he's tanking and apparently taking you with him...Bush lite, except he can't get out of the way of his own ego and vanity...so far he is a terrible president

249 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:11:45pm

re: #240 austin_blue

No. You can blame millions of dollars in lobbying money.

"They who have the gold make the rules."

I haven't been contacted by any lobbyists. I feel left out!

250 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:12:02pm

re: #244 PT Barnum

for one thing he thinks he can sweet talk ahmadinejad

251 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:12:05pm

re: #238 Ojoe

Obama does not have the intellect to get a good handle on the grand sweep of history, nor on the way the world really works, and he is often led astray by illusions of an ideal world.

2nd class intellect at best IMHO.

Agree with the second bolded statement, strongly disagree with the first.

252 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:12:14pm

Former V.P. Cheney is in the hospital.

253 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:12:19pm

re: #214 albusteve

oh for gods sake...what a pathetic sore loser...BO, fair himself?...don't make me laugh...he was way too full of himself...he's shot now and for nothing...the GOP has done exactly what they were voted into office for...your touchy, feely, unicorn stuff is silly...BO is just a guy, and not very smart at that...everything seems to mystify him

Whatever happened to the Presidents of yore, who radiated intelligence in everything they said and did, and who were 'mystified' by nothing...

Youtube Video

Obama's got a long, long way to go before he reaches those 'heights', steve.

254 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:12:26pm

re: #231 austin_blue

I like LVQ, but Walter's passive aggression and Bagua's intransigence absolutely pushes his buttons. I understand. AGW deniers should just stand up and say "I think it's all bullshit". This picking around the edges and poking at ephemera doesn't address the real problem:

We are in a world of shit. What are we going to do about it?

I like Ludwig too, but I think his aggression is a partial cause of the continuing hostility. He hostile enough that Walter and Bagua can't back off without appearing to have given in. I do have an idea, however. My plan is to aim the discussion towards specific step that can be taken to combat AGW. Many of those steps are already supports by most of us, including Bagua. By getting away from the overall picture, and down into action details, I hope to focus away from the contentious parts.

255 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:12:34pm

re: #248 albusteve

he's a dope politically...I don't care about his other towering attributes...if his intellect was sharper maybe he would quit making an idiot out of himself...he has no feel for the will of the people...even his own supporters are displeased with his stupidity, he's tanking and apparently taking you with him...Bush lite, except he can't get out of the way of his own ego and vanity...so far he is a terrible president

Callback to earlier, o expert on politics.

256 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:12:50pm

re: #249 NJDhockeyfan

I haven't been contacted by any lobbyists. I feel left out!

Me neither! I need to upgrade my 1950 kitchen.

Help!!!

257 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:12:51pm

re: #239 Merkin

But how much risk do they take on. Corporations with as few as 200 employees are allowed to accept the risk of self-insuring health insurance. This implies the pool doesn't have to be very large to spread the risk.

The studies I have seen say single payer would save 300 to 400 billion dollars a year. If we could reduce the costs to what Canada's are with their single payer at the Provencal level it would be twice that.

Do we owe the insurance companies a business free of public single payer competition if they are so bad at what they do? So inefficient.

I don't have a problem with the government regulating what private companies can make, who they are required to cover, and how quickly they can raise rates, but those rules should be related to the real costs of medical services. I don't think the single payer public corporation as a competitor to the private companies is the best option.

258 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:13:19pm

re: #231 austin_blue

I like LVQ, but Walter's passive aggression and Bagua's intransigence absolutely pushes his buttons. I understand. AGW deniers should just stand up and say "I think it's all bullshit". This picking around the edges and poking at ephemera doesn't address the real problem:

We are in a world of shit. What are we going to do about it?

talk about it again...in Bali this time...sweet!

259 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:13:47pm

re: #251 Soap_Man

If you got a handle on history, you would be disabused of your illusions about an ideal world, I think.

260 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:14:01pm

re: #230 albusteve

yeah, and over 60% of Americans oppose this crap of a bill...HCR is nothing new..everybody knoes it needs to be reformed, and it will...some people said the GOP ruined the chance of a lifetime...bullshit, a bill will be passed...probably just less of a piece of crap...the whole thing is a clusterfuck and BOs TV show is not the fix...he does not give a shit about the people, it's the legislation he's after...spit

They are only opposed until they hear the details:

[Link: www.newsweek.com...]

261 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:14:07pm

re: #242 Stonemason


Preventing recission, massive price gouging, and denial of service due to pre-existing conditions completely beyond the control of patients = boondoggle, I guess. So in your zany world, where do I rent my flamingo to go play croquet?

262 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:14:10pm

re: #231 austin_blue

I like LVQ, but Walter's passive aggression and Bagua's intransigence absolutely pushes his buttons. I understand. AGW deniers should just stand up and say "I think it's all bullshit". This picking around the edges and poking at ephemera doesn't address the real problem:

We are in a world of shit. What are we going to do about it?

I just tend to scroll past the bickering. It reminds me too much of the creationist discussion. This or that fossil was a fraud, so toss the whole thing out. Until someone shows me the bulk of the data is wrong, I'll let the skeptics nibble on the edges. Since Walter claims he is not a skeptic, we seem to be spending a lot of time in rearranging the deck chairs on the AGW Titanic instead of manning the life boats.

263 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:14:11pm

re: #238 Ojoe

Obama does not have the intellect to get a good handle on the grand sweep of history, nor on the way the world really works, and he is often led astray by illusions of an ideal world.

2nd class intellect at best IMHO.

Agreed. He has never really dealt with entrenched opposition prior to being president, and now we are all paying while he learns on the fly.

264 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:14:43pm

re: #250 Ojoe

What is the "grand sweep of history" and how does "the world really work(s)".

265 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:14:48pm

re: #250 Ojoe

for one thing he thinks he can sweet talk ahmadinejad

I'm not so sure that's entirely the case. I don't think he's so idealistic that he won't resort to other means if diplomacy fails, but he is willing to try diplomacy first, which is kind of refreshing, considering the cowboy unilateralism that just ended up alienating our foes and allies alike.

266 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:14:52pm

re: #250 Ojoe

for one thing he thinks he can sweet talk ahmadinejad

And what do you base that on?

Crazy people are fun!

267 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:14:55pm

re: #252 MandyManners

Former V.P. Cheney is in the hospital.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

268 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:15:01pm

re: #259 Ojoe

If you got a handle on history, you would be disabused of your illusions about an ideal world, I think.

Quite Concur.

269 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:15:07pm

re: #252 MandyManners

Former V.P. Cheney is in the hospital.

ugh

270 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:15:08pm

re: #252 MandyManners

Former V.P. Cheney is in the hospital.

Did you happen to read the comments on CNN?

271 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:15:11pm

re: #259 Ojoe

from what do you claim your superior wisdom? Just curious ;)

272 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:15:23pm

re: #264 Jeff In Ohio

What is the "grand sweep of history" and how does "the world really work(s)".

You can't reason with wacky. Just step back and admire the wackiness for what it is.

273 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:15:27pm

re: #263 Dark_Falcon

If we pay by a big terrorist hit Obama will rank with Buchanan.

274 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:15:39pm

Be well, sir.

275 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:16:01pm

re: #267 MandyManners

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

I hope he gets better soon.

276 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:16:01pm

re: #259 Ojoe

If you got a handle on history, you would be disabused of your illusions about an ideal world, I think.

Even the most intelligent of us often fall victim to idealism.

277 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:16:11pm

re: #266 WindUpBird

Get serious man they are building nuclear explosives as fast as they can.

278 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:16:23pm

re: #270 NJDhockeyfan

Did you happen to read the comments on CNN?

?

279 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:16:38pm

re: #273 Ojoe

If we pay by a big terrorist hit Obama will rank with Buchanan.

I TOTALLY SHOULDN'T DO THIS!

BUT I AM GOING TO!!!

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!

/It was the best thing that ever happened to G.W. Bush :P

280 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:16:44pm

re: #266 WindUpBird

And what do you base that on?

Crazy people are fun!

And Ahmadinejad is a nutcase, to be sure. Ojoe is right about how Obama does not understand evil. He knows it exists, but he still has trouble recognizing it.

281 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:16:46pm

re: #276 Soap_Man

Not the most intelligent.

Winston Churchill being a case in point.

282 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:16:58pm

re: #254 Dark_Falcon

I like Ludwig too, but I think his aggression is a partial cause of the continuing hostility. He hostile enough that Walter and Bagua can't back off without appearing to have given in. I do have an idea, however. My plan is to aim the discussion towards specific step that can be taken to combat AGW. Many of those steps are already supports by most of us, including Bagua. By getting away from the overall picture, and down into action details, I hope to focus away from the contentious parts.

Quite concur! (heh)

You know where we need to site new nuke plants? At existing coal burning facilities. Both cooling ponds and distribution lines exist at those sites. Upgrade and replace.

283 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:16:58pm

re: #259 Ojoe

If you got a handle on history, you would be disabused of your illusions about an ideal world, I think.

You are quite skilled at saying total horseshit in very pretty ways. I like it!

284 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:17:12pm

re: #231 austin_blue

I like LVQ, but Walter's passive aggression and Bagua's intransigence absolutely pushes his buttons. [...]

Not to spoil your fun but I wasn't involved with that thread you are talking about.

285 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:17:24pm

re: #270 NJDhockeyfan

Did you happen to read the comments on CNN?

I'm going to be quiet here, because my first response was something incredibly rude that would probably get me yelled at.

286 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:17:48pm

re: #277 Ojoe

Get serious man they are building nuclear explosives as fast as they can.

Good! Tell me another one!

Can I play Anti-Obama talking point bingo with these? What would the center square be?

287 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:17:49pm

re: #252 MandyManners

Former V.P. Cheney is in the hospital.

/And you feel this is an important enough event to let us know?

(I really do wish Dick Cheney a speedy recovery)

288 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:17:54pm

Anybody really care about the Scott Brown vote? It doesn't bother this conservative. He is from Massachusetts afterall, and it really wasn't such a huge bill anyway.

289 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:18:15pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

He knows it exists, but he still has trouble recognizing it.

A terribly dangerous flaw these days, and in his position.

290 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:18:17pm

re: #278 MandyManners

?

A lot of commentators hoping he dies. It's really bad over there.

291 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:18:18pm

re: #286 WindUpBird

"He's Black!"

292 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:18:28pm

re: #248 albusteve

he's a dope politically...I don't care about his other towering attributes...if his intellect was sharper maybe he would quit making an idiot out of himself...he has no feel for the will of the people...even his own supporters are displeased with his stupidity, he's tanking and apparently taking you with him...Bush lite, except he can't get out of the way of his own ego and vanity...so far he is a terrible president

If you look up ODS in the dictionary, I suspect we'd see a picture of you. Your seem to transpose your feeling about the guy to the entire country.

293 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:18:32pm

re: #234 palomino

I'm afraid this will just embolden the far right of the GOP as well as the tea partiers. Which is no recipe for long-term GOP stability or responsible governance.

I just don't see how this helps moderates in the GOP. They will continue to have little say in the direction of the party.

I think time is the only thing that can help moderate republicans...time for the TPs to break up and even then I'm not sure what help that would be....the GOP is in a world of hurt simply because the don't see or deny that middle America is where they need to make an appeal...in this day and age, the fringe can literally rule I'm afraid...I'm just hoping it's not true, but as I've said for a year....conservatism is dead, as a political force

294 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:18:33pm

re: #270 NJDhockeyfan

Did you happen to read the comments on CNN?

Yeah, pretty bad. Doesn't fit the "right-wingers are full of hate" bit though. Ixnay that.

295 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:18:58pm

re: #286 WindUpBird

Good! Tell me another one!

Can I play Anti-Obama talking point bingo with these? What would the center square be?

Easy.
Number 1 reason wingnuts hate Obama: he's black.
Number 2 reason wingnuts hate Obama: he isn't really black.

296 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:19:02pm

We've had intellectual Presidents, before, so there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

297 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:19:07pm

re: #291 windsagio

ACORN!!!11!!!1

298 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:19:12pm

re: #237 PT Barnum

ODS Much steve?

that's bullshit, there is no such thing

299 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:19:13pm

re: #262 avanti

I just tend to scroll past the bickering. It reminds me too much of the creationist discussion. This or that fossil was a fraud, so toss the whole thing out. Until someone shows me the bulk of the data is wrong, I'll let the skeptics nibble on the edges. Since Walter claims he is not a skeptic, we seem to be spending a lot of time in rearranging the deck chairs on the AGW Titanic instead of manning the life boats.

My problem is that the ID argument affects education, while the AGW argument affects them physical world.

300 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:19:36pm

re: #287 jamesfirecat

/And you feel this is an important enough event to let us know?

(I really do wish Dick Cheney a speedy recovery)

Oh, why don't you go suck a cough-drop?

301 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:19:36pm

re: #297 Jeff In Ohio

Synonyms shouldn't count imo :p

re: #295 iceweasel

Hah, beat you!

302 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:20:07pm

re: #263 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. He has never really dealt with entrenched opposition prior to being president, and now we are all paying while he learns on the fly.

Um... what are good jobs that would teach one to deal with an entrenched opposition before you run for president?

(Serious)

303 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:20:09pm

re: #296 The Sanity Inspector

We've had intellectual Presidents, before, so there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Didn't you get the memo - he's stupid.

304 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:20:19pm

re: #279 windsagio

You are utter, and vilely wrong. George Bush benefited not at all from 9/11. It forced him to fight an war against an unrelentingly evil enemy while under fire from his own domestic left-wing. The lines on his face now, and the pain he feels from those who have died should put paid to any idea that 9/11 gave any benefit to George W. Bush.

305 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:20:34pm

re: #281 Ojoe

Not the most intelligent.

Winston Churchill being a case in point.

I'm separating intelligence and wisdom. Obama is intelligent in that he holds an academic, nuts-and-bolts understanding of the issues. What he lacks is wisdom, the ability to apply said intellect to real-world situations.

I've never felt that he didn't understand an issue on an academic level. The application and execution is what's really lacking.

306 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:20:47pm

re: #290 NJDhockeyfan

A lot of commentators hoping he dies. It's really bad over there.

PROGGORAMMA

307 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:20:48pm

Good Evening LGF.

308 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:20:48pm

re: #304 Dark_Falcon

*cough*sarctagandmultiplewarnings*cough*

309 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:20:55pm

re: #298 albusteve

Updinged you for the lack of an elipse.

310 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:20:57pm

re: #286 WindUpBird

You are not serious. Try and be serious. Have you children? How much history have you read? How many did we lose in WW2?

Etc.

That's ail the response you will get from me for the foreseeable future.

311 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:21:21pm

re: #277 Ojoe

Get serious man they are building nuclear explosives as fast as they can.

And they are playing the West like a pawn shop Gibson SG in a Pete Townshend impersonation contest.

Youtube Video
312 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:21:44pm

re: #294 cliffster

Yeah, pretty bad. Doesn't fit the "right-wingers are full of hate" bit though. Ixnay that.

Does fit the "left-winger are full of hate" meme, though. Really, both extremes can be pretty hateful. You do remember the far left's unhealthy hate of Bush, right? Not so dissimilar to the far right's hate of Obama.

313 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:21:49pm

re: #284 Bagua

Not to spoil your fun but I wasn't involved with that thread you are talking about.

Well, not *that* one..

:-)

314 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:22:09pm

re: #310 Ojoe

Fine wide net of meaningless questions there, Mr. Joe.

You still haven't explained your presumed superiority either >

315 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:22:13pm

re: #307 Spare O'Lake

Good Evening LGF.

Hi.

316 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:22:23pm

re: #263 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. He has never really dealt with entrenched opposition prior to being president, and now we are all paying while he learns on the fly.

Because every president before Obama really had a whole lot of entrenched opposition and adversity to overcome. Why, Bush was battling that wildly liberal Texas legislature when he was governor! Damned hippies! :D

And every damn President learns on the fly unless they're a two termer. There's no training-wheels Presidency.

You're not usually prone to ODS, but this is sorta heading down that road.

317 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:22:45pm

re: #110 albusteve

I know the best ever saloon game was the old shuffleboard

Was? We keep the one in the campus bar in mint condition. Damn fun game, screw "Band Hero" this and that.

318 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:22:46pm

re: #286 WindUpBird

Good! Tell me another one!

Can I play Anti-Obama talking point bingo with these? What would the center square be?

Socialist.

Duh....

319 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:23:23pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

And Ahmadinejad is a nutcase, to be sure. Ojoe is right about how Obama does not understand evil. He knows it exists, but he still has trouble recognizing it.

And now we've passed a couple of exits on the ODS highway, shifting into 6th gear, getting good mileage, hitting cruise control...

320 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:23:36pm

re: #261 WindUpBird

It was the move to third party health care that created this mess in general. The bills (I have not looked into todays bill) that were passed by the house and senate would have destroyed health care in this country. Nowhere in the world has 'free' healthcare worked, nowhere.

Look, we can argue for hours about how things should be, that is a waste of time. The reality is that the government, any government, can not do as efficiently as the private sector can do it. Right now it is government regulation and intervention that has caused costs to sky-rocket (how about letting me buy insurance from another state?) Add to that the anti-evolution desire to force me to pay for someone elses freaking preventable diseases and we have a recipe for disaster.

321 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:23:38pm

re: #312 BryanS

Does fit the "left-winger are full of hate" meme, though. Really, both extremes can be pretty hateful. You do remember the far left's unhealthy hate of Bush, right? Not so dissimilar to the far right's hate of Obama.

I dunno, I hated Bush for things that he had already actually done. The right seems to hate Obama, regardless of what he has actually done, and goes so far as to frame everything as some kind bolshevik plot.

322 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:23:43pm

re: #290 NJDhockeyfan

A lot of commentators hoping he dies. It's really bad over there.

I hope he lives long enough to be tried in the Hauge.

323 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:23:44pm

re: #254 Dark_Falcon

Just parachuting in, I fully agree with your sentiment and your idea on the most thought provoking, rather than invective provoking ways to get into the topic(s). The worst possible angle seems to be the forecasting of effects.

324 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:23:49pm

re: #264 Jeff In Ohio

The grand sweep of history is tragic, dangerous; & the world works pretty much like Machiavelli pointed out.

325 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:24:00pm

re: #313 austin_blue

Well, not *that* one..

:-)

That you, so we can rule out my presence being a necessary condition for that sort of behaviour.

326 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:24:06pm

re: #305 Soap_Man

I'm separating intelligence and wisdom. Obama is intelligent in that he holds an academic, nuts-and-bolts understanding of the issues. What he lacks is wisdom, the ability to apply said intellect to real-world situations.

I've never felt that he didn't understand an issue on an academic level. The application and execution is what's really lacking.

So true. Carter was pretty intelligent as well. No doubt both he and Obama are a couple of the most intelligent presidents we've had. But I would sure appreciate the wisdom of a Reagan of Bush (Sr) right about now.

327 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:24:29pm

re: #324 Ojoe

I always though he oversimplified. ;)

328 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:24:47pm

re: #325 Bagua

pimf: thank you

329 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:24:47pm

re: #322 Conservative Moonbat

I hope he lives long enough to be tried in the Hauge.

That's despicable.

330 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:24:49pm

PIMF
Thought

331 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:24:56pm

re: #324 Ojoe

Good lord man!

Your entire vocabulary is broad generalizations!

332 keloyd  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:24:56pm

re: #296 The Sanity Inspector

We've had intellectual Presidents, before, so there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

I was wondering as I pressed the mouse button if you were playing the Woodrow Wilson card. His academic prowess didn't seem to help him as president. A good pres is very bright, but academe - even on the management track as Wilson was, being pres. of Yale - does not help wiht executive decision making or leadership generally. Generals make better presidents than academics, imho. He was substantially more anti-black than his contemporaries. He couldn't close the deal on the League of Nations. He got elected on an anti-war platform, then bowed to English pressure (which I probably agree with, but for the waffling that lead up to it.) I'm thinking Bill Buckley had Wilson in mind when he claimed he would rahter be governed by the first 540 names in the phone book than ivy league faculty.

333 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:25:00pm

re: #292 avanti

If you look up ODS in the dictionary, I suspect we'd see a picture of you. Your seem to transpose your feeling about the guy to the entire country.

he's got nothing..I'm sorry he's president..I think he's an embarrassment...he has not shown any leadership or legislative skills...this continuous ODS thing you all keep putting on me says more about you than it does for me

334 zora  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:25:16pm

re: #297 Jeff In Ohio
"madrasa"

335 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:25:24pm

re: #329 NJDhockeyfan

Not everyone is a good speller.

336 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:25:33pm

re: #325 Bagua

That you, so we can rule out my presence being a necessary condition for that sort of behaviour.

???

Not a coherent statement. Point?

337 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:25:38pm

re: #316 WindUpBird

Because every president before Obama really had a whole lot of entrenched opposition and adversity to overcome. Why, Bush was battling that wildly liberal Texas legislature when he was governor! Damned hippies! :D

And every damn President learns on the fly unless they're a two termer. There's no training-wheels Presidency.

You're not usually prone to ODS, but this is sorta heading down that road.

I agree with DF on this one. Even an enthusiastic Obama supporter has to realize that he never had to go through the fire, so to speak, before he became president.

He was a Democrat in Illinois (easy shit) and briefly a U.S. Senator. Although I agree with your general statement that you cannot be truly prepared to be president because there is no job like it, he didn't have to deal with many of the issues while he was cutting his teeth in politics.

338 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:25:55pm

re: #55 albusteve

the bloggers don't mean shit, they can rant all they want

blog commentators, too!

339 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:25:57pm

re: #270 NJDhockeyfan

Wow, just, wow...must be the same people from Huffpo that cause threads to be shut down when ever a republican is in the hospital.

Gotta love those compassionate liberals.

340 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:26:01pm

re: #302 jamesfirecat

Um... what are good jobs that would teach one to deal with an entrenched opposition before you run for president?

(Serious)

Senator for longer than 4 year, governor, military officer, corporate executive.

341 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:26:05pm

re: #322 Conservative Moonbat

I hope he lives long enough to be tried in the Hauge.

I don't get it

342 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:26:06pm

I mean, if we're going to armchair psychoanalyze the POTUS, can we at least scan our PhDs first so I know who actually has the head-shrinker diploma on their wall?

This is as butt-stupid as the people who claimed that Bush was crazy and unfit to be president because he was a dry drunk. It's like the SOTU thread, part 2.

343 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:26:28pm

re: #316 WindUpBird

Because every president before Obama really had a whole lot of entrenched opposition and adversity to overcome. Why, Bush was battling that wildly liberal Texas legislature when he was governor! Damned hippies! :D

And every damn President learns on the fly unless they're a two termer. There's no training-wheels Presidency.

You're not usually prone to ODS, but this is sorta heading down that road.

Bush succeeded passing legislation with bipartisan support his first year. Obama? Not so much. Now I blame Pelosi mostly for that failing, but Obama deserves some of the blame for not reigning her extremism in.

344 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:26:35pm

re: #270 NJDhockeyfan

Did you happen to read the comments on CNN?

Not me, but I'll bet they're no nicer than the ones at MSNBC.

345 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:26:58pm

re: #321 PT Barnum

I dunno, I hated Bush for things that he had already actually done. The right seems to hate Obama, regardless of what he has actually done, and goes so far as to frame everything as some kind bolshevik plot.

Can't reason with crazy!

346 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:27:05pm

re: #336 austin_blue

???

Not a coherent statement. Point?

Sorry, I pimf'ed a few comments later, I mean't:

Thank you, so we can rule out my presence being a necessary condition for that sort of behaviour.

347 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:27:12pm

re: #300 MandyManners

Oh, why don't you go suck a cough-drop?

Let me try again and see if I can find where the tone lies, even if it only ends with me getting blown sky high and my karma sinking like a stone....

I really do wish Dick Cheney all the best.

/That said might I also suggest that he consider abandoning the pathetic fleshy shell that has held him back for so long and instead embrace the efficiency of the machine. Darth Cheney does not truly deserve the name until he has become at least 60-75% girders and oil.....

348 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:27:37pm

re: #253 Jimmah

Whatever happened to the Presidents of yore, who radiated intelligence in everything they said and did, and who were 'mystified' by nothing...

[Video]Obama's got a long, long way to go before he reaches those 'heights', steve.

Bush had the ability to be pretty funny when the time presented itself. I think he meant well all along his presidency even though he, like all those that preceded him, made mistakes along the way. This is one of my favorite photos where former President Bush gives President Obama a hug at the inauguration.

349 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:27:39pm

Proglodytes.

350 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:27:54pm

re: #279 windsagio

Oh no, that's just not right.

351 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:27:56pm

re: #342 WindUpBird

Why don't you go fuck yourself?

352 Merkin  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:28:15pm

re: #257 jaunte

"I don't have a problem with the government regulating what private companies can make, who they are required to cover, and how quickly they can raise rates, but those rules should be related to the real costs of medical services. I don't think the single payer public corporation as a competitor to the private companies is the best option."

So you chose regulation over competition. Not a choice I would make.

Medical costs began running wild after Congress passed legislation to convert the large non-profit insurance companies, the Blue Cross-Blue Shield companies, into for profits in the nineties. This eliminated the tough competition the for profit insurance companies faced. Don't forget the health insurance companies base their rates on a fixed markup on cost. This means they make more money the higher the over all medical costs are.

These two facts convinced me competition would work better than more regulation. But I am prepared to be convinced otherwise.

353 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:28:27pm

re: #351 MandyManners

Physically impossible?

354 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:28:33pm

re: #331 windsagio

Good lord man!

Your entire vocabulary is broad generalizations!

No generalization is worth a damn, including this one.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

355 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:28:34pm

re: #350 Rightwingconspirator

you were warned :p

356 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:28:34pm

re: #319 WindUpBird

And now we've passed a couple of exits on the ODS highway, shifting into 6th gear, getting good mileage, hitting cruise control...

Dark_Falcon goes Spy Hunter on WindUpBird, activating his Oil Slick and sending WUB's car careening off the road.

/80's game geekage

357 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:28:42pm

re: #321 PT Barnum

I dunno, I hated Bush for things that he had already actually done. The right seems to hate Obama, regardless of what he has actually done, and goes so far as to frame everything as some kind bolshevik plot.

Socialized medicine, takeover of many companies/bailouts/TARP, Cap'n Trade, stimulus boondoggles, card check...

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Obama if you are a conservative.

358 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:28:49pm

re: #349 Spare O'Lake

Proglodytes.

Sweet!

359 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:28:54pm

re: #349 Spare O'Lake

Guilty LOL.

360 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:28:55pm

re: #319 WindUpBird

And now we've passed a couple of exits on the ODS highway, shifting into 6th gear, getting good mileage, hitting cruise control...

I call bullshit. What has been said have been legit criticisms of Obama. It's convenient to dismiss it as ODS. Don't pull that.

361 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:29:08pm

Oops. I go off to search for an image and come back to another squabble.

362 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:29:30pm

re: #356 Dark_Falcon

Spy Hunter ruled.

363 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:29:32pm

re: #331 windsagio

Good lord man!

Your entire vocabulary is broad generalizations!

and your contributions are mind numbing

364 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:29:34pm

re: #341 cliffster

I don't get it

[Link: www.theweek.com...]

365 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:29:40pm

re: #339 Stonemason

Wow, just, wow...must be the same people from Huffpo that cause threads to be shut down when ever a republican is in the hospital.

Gotta love those compassionate liberals.

It's "compassionate conservatives" to keep the added alliterative appeal might I suggest "loving liberals"?

366 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:29:44pm

re: #361 Gus 802

You logged in at the wrong time of the day. Try 6 AM tomorrow ;)

367 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:30:05pm

re: #363 albusteve

*kiss*
I love you too!

368 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:30:19pm

re: #366 windsagio

You logged in at the wrong time of the day. Try 6 AM tomorrow ;)

Or 5 AM yesterday.

/

369 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:30:27pm

re: #343 BryanS

Bush succeeded passing legislation with bipartisan support his first year. Obama? Not so much. Now I blame Pelosi mostly for that failing, but Obama deserves some of the blame for not reigning her extremism in.

A) Pelosi is not an extremist. Anyone who thinks so is deluding themselves and a blind partisan with no understanding of politics.

B) Republicans are obstructing anything and everything. Not Obama's fault that Republicans are doing that. Republicans' fault! Obama is acting in good faith, Republicans are not. Voinovich is, because he's a lame duck. Scott Brown is because he was elected to kennedy's seat and if he's a blind obstructionist he'll be dismantled in 2 years.

370 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:30:47pm

re: #361 Gus 802

Oops. I go off to search for an image and come back to another squabble.

Quit leaving and maybe things will stay under control! I read about it in the Internet Heisenberg Flame Effect or somethin'...

371 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:30:49pm

re: #338 Vambo

blog commentators, too!

me first!

372 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:30:58pm

re: #333 albusteve

he's got nothing..I'm sorry he's president..I think he's an embarrassment...he has not shown any leadership or legislative skills...this continuous ODS thing you all keep putting on me says more about you than it does for me

About half the country tends to be sorry about the Presidential choice. I was not happy for the last eight years of Bush, now you'll have your eight years, but you'll survive too.

373 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:31:15pm

re: #346 Bagua

Sorry, I pimf'ed a few comments later, I mean't:

Thank you, so we can rule out my presence being a necessary condition for that sort of behaviour.

Agreed! But you do push LVQs buttons, just the same. And you are a tough nut to get to back down on most subjects you fell strongly about.

Even with evidence that is contrary to your position.

374 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:31:24pm

re: #352 Merkin

Competition is most efficient at controlling prices, but in the case of health care (and health insurance) we have a societal need to protect the weakest customers from the effects of strong corporate competition (no one wanting them as customers.) So we have to balance efficiency with regulation. Not saying it will be easy.

375 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:31:27pm

re: #351 MandyManners

Why don't you go fuck yourself?

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me.
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

376 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:31:36pm

re: #357 BryanS

Socialized medicine

WHERE?????????????????????????

377 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:31:47pm

re: #357 BryanS

Socialized medicine, takeover of many companies/bailouts/TARP, Cap'n Trade, stimulus boondoggles, card check...

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Obama if you are a conservative.

Umm.... Wasn't TARP created under Bush?

378 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:31:59pm

re: #342 WindUpBird

I mean, if we're going to armchair psychoanalyze the POTUS, can we at least scan our PhDs first so I know who actually has the head-shrinker diploma on their wall?

This is as butt-stupid as the people who claimed that Bush was crazy and unfit to be president because he was a dry drunk. It's like the SOTU thread, part 2.

PhDs are not qualified to practice psychiatry.

379 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:32:18pm

re: #364 Conservative Moonbat

[Link: www.theweek.com...]

Ah. He's in the hospital with chest pains, so I was assuming there was something more than unrepentant assholitude in the statement.

380 zora  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:32:22pm

re: #376 Vambo

in hannity's america

381 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:33:18pm

re: #351 MandyManners

Why don't you go fuck yourself?

Mandy, what was so upsetting about his post ???

382 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:33:21pm

re: #370 The Sanity Inspector

Quit leaving and maybe things will stay under control! I read about it in the Internet Heisenberg Flame Effect or somethin'...

Is that like Bernoulli's principle? Or when I Google I create a vacuum which immediately results in an acceleration of (hot) air flow into the canister.

383 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:33:23pm

re: #356 Dark_Falcon

Dark_Falcon goes Spy Hunter on WindUpBird, activating his Oil Slick and sending WUB's car careening off the road.

/80's game geekage

hahaha well done

*plays Theme from Peter Gunn*

384 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:33:55pm

re: #375 WindUpBird

Just make sure you don't say 'goddamn', you fucking fuckwad. ///

385 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:33:55pm

re: #377 jamesfirecat

Umm... Wasn't TARP created under Bush?

yes, and remind BO of that next time he claims to have saved the world from sure economic doom

386 Racer X  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:34:02pm

Obama is failing badly.

/

*Please note the sarc tag.

No offense!

So that makes this comment totally OK.

Yes!

*fistpump*

387 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:34:45pm

re: #348 Gus 802

Bush had the ability to be pretty funny when the time presented itself. I think he meant well all along his presidency even though he, like all those that preceded him, made mistakes along the way. This is one of my favorite photos where former President Bush gives President Obama a hug at the inauguration.

I never hated Bush, but he certainly wasn't a towering intellect. I think it's obvious to all but those with advanced ODS that Obama is quite clearly several leagues ahead of Bush on that score. My point really in posting that video was that for supporters of Bush to be complaining (as they always are) about Obama's alleged lack of smarts is pretty hilarious.

388 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:34:50pm

re: #369 WindUpBird

A) Pelosi is not an extremist. Anyone who thinks so is deluding themselves and a blind partisan with no understanding of politics.

B) Republicans are obstructing anything and everything. Not Obama's fault that Republicans are doing that. Republicans' fault! Obama is acting in good faith, Republicans are not. Voinovich is, because he's a lame duck. Scott Brown is because he was elected to kennedy's seat and if he's a blind obstructionist he'll be dismantled in 2 years.

You need to defend statement A. Pelosi is most definitely an extremist. Under her leadership, she forced through legislation so far left, that the Dems could not get all 60 voters in their caucus to agree on most of what she passed.

On statement B--yes, true. But when you are excluded from any meaningful form of participation in the process, obstruction is all you have.

389 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:35:16pm

re: #357 BryanS

Socialized medicine, takeover of many companies/bailouts/TARP, Cap'n Trade, stimulus boondoggles, card check...

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Obama if you are a conservative.

Except that socialized medicine is not what he's ever suggested. Socialized medicine would be the government employing all the doctors and owning all the hospitals. Not going to happen, hasn't been proposed, to my knowledge.

The bank bailouts were begun in the Bush Administration, the stimulus bill has been given credit by most economists as preventing a second great depression, and although the government was involved in taking over GM and Chrysler to a certain extent, I don't see any compelling evidence that they intend to keep ownership any longer than necessary.

390 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:35:28pm

re: #332 keloyd

I was wondering as I pressed the mouse button if you were playing the Woodrow Wilson card. His academic prowess didn't seem to help him as president. A good pres is very bright, but academe - even on the management track as Wilson was, being pres. of Yale - does not help wiht executive decision making or leadership generally. Generals make better presidents than academics, imho. He was substantially more anti-black than his contemporaries. He couldn't close the deal on the League of Nations. He got elected on an anti-war platform, then bowed to English pressure (which I probably agree with, but for the waffling that lead up to it.) I'm thinking Bill Buckley had Wilson in mind when he claimed he would rahter be governed by the first 540 names in the phone book than ivy league faculty.

Agreed. And yet, of all our Presidents who were of top-notch intellectual caliber, Wilson was the best. Contrast him with the disastrous administration of James Madison, for example.

391 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:35:37pm

re: #377 jamesfirecat

Okay. Bush and his guys wrote a 4 page proposal. It came back at billions more, and 396 pages more. In the additional 396 pages can be found a complete case of inadequate legislative oversight.

392 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:35:38pm

re: #378 Spare O'Lake

PhDs are not qualified to practice psychiatry.

Psychoanalysis ≠ Psychiatry

393 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:35:46pm

re: #384 iceweasel

Just make sure you don't say 'goddamn', you fucking fuckwad. ///

or godamned fucking fuckwad prog!

394 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:36:24pm

re: #373 austin_blue

Don't disagree with your perception, but if you look more carefully you will often see that the "evidence that is contrary" tends to be more conjecture or exaggeration than evidence.

And I'll be happy to debate that. :)

395 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:36:38pm

Evening all!

I am so glad I am not following politics the way I did a year ago. If I was, I'd not only be crazy, I'd probably be in-house crazy. I think Science Fiction is a better choice.

How are you-all?

396 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:36:41pm

re: #391 Rightwingconspirator

Okay. Bush and his guys wrote a 4 page proposal. It came back at billions more, and 396 pages more. In the additional 396 pages can be found a complete case of inadequate legislative oversight.

pork...it's addicting no matter how crucial legislation is

397 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:36:48pm

re: #393 albusteve

I was gonna try to top that, but believe it or not my inner Christian rebelled >> I can't make myself intentionally take the Lord's name in vain, it just has to flow naturally.

Weird, eh?

398 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:36:53pm

re: #382 Gus 802

Is that like Bernoulli's principle? Or when I Google I create a vacuum which immediately results in an acceleration of (hot) air flow into the canister.

Something like that. The science is settled, but some of the data sets are pretty effed up, from what I hear.

/dives under computer desk...

399 palomino  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:37:02pm

re: #293 albusteve

I think time is the only thing that can help moderate republicans...time for the TPs to break up and even then I'm not sure what help that would be...the GOP is in a world of hurt simply because the don't see or deny that middle America is where they need to make an appeal...in this day and age, the fringe can literally rule I'm afraid...I'm just hoping it's not true, but as I've said for a year...conservatism is dead, as a political force

Agreed more or less.

I think the Dems are actually more aware of the need to appeal to middle America, but they are utterly incapable of communicating any of this. They prefer to navel gaze anyway.

400 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:37:03pm

"I'm going out back to crush some wood before I say something." :D

401 Racer X  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:37:08pm

When Obama can convince an entire country (and several others) that it is totally OK to invade another country and steal all their oil, then I'll be impressed.

Until then - not so much.

/

402 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:37:19pm

re: #395 ggt

Evening all!

I am so glad I am not following politics the way I did a year ago. If I was, I'd not only be crazy, I'd probably be in-house crazy. I think Science Fiction is a better choice.

How are you-all?

SUCK-UP!!!!

//

403 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:37:22pm

Damn. That Canadian pair skated beautifully.

404 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:37:22pm

re: #376 Vambo

WHERE???

Hasn't passed yet...just wait for it. Actually, single payer got taken out in favor of a "public option" which the house bill did a good job of formulating in a way that would lead to almost nobody left having private insurance. Obama has been more practical--extremists in his party, not so much.

405 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:37:26pm

re: #395 ggt

Evening all!

I am so glad I am not following politics the way I did a year ago. If I was, I'd not only be crazy, I'd probably be in-house crazy. I think Science Fiction is a better choice.

How are you-all?

The usual avatars are slugging it out.

406 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:37:30pm

re: #387 Jimmah

I have never had a long conversation with either of them, and, I have not seen any of President Obama's past grades and such, so there reallly is no way to compare.
If we compare reading speeches, Mr. Obama wins, if we compare off the cuff, Mr. Bush wins
No one here knows truly the intellect of either other than what we are shown on tv.

407 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:37:33pm

re: #397 windsagio

I was gonna try to top that, but believe it or not my inner Christian rebelled >> I can't make myself intentionally take the Lord's name in vain, it just has to flow naturally.

Weird, eh?

that you are lying?...no

408 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:37:56pm

re: #369 WindUpBird

A) Pelosi is not an extremist. Anyone who thinks so is deluding themselves and a blind partisan with no understanding of politics.

Pelosi is not an extremist? What, is she a moderate? WTF???

B) Republicans are obstructing anything and everything. Not Obama's fault that Republicans are doing that. Republicans' fault! Obama is acting in good faith, Republicans are not. Voinovich is, because he's a lame duck. Scott Brown is because he was elected to kennedy's seat and if he's a blind obstructionist he'll be dismantled in 2 years.

The Republicans can't obstruct anything. The Democrats had the majority on both houses for a year and couldn't get much done.

409 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:38:30pm

re: #388 BryanS

You need to defend statement A. Pelosi is most definitely an extremist. Under her leadership, she forced through legislation so far left, that the Dems could not get all 60 voters in their caucus to agree on most of what she passed.

On statement B--yes, true. But when you are excluded from any meaningful form of participation in the process, obstruction is all you have.

Wait. So anything Pelosi wanted to put through that say, Lieberman or Nelson didn't want to vote for is extremist? Tell me another one, it's open mic night!

And I'm out, it's just getting too wacky ODS in here. A lot of heat and no light. Wake me when the cheap shots end.

410 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:38:31pm

re: #396 albusteve

Precisely what makes me a fan of the line item veto. But it fell to constitutional problems. Too bad though. I really hate the "riders', and the poison pill amendments. Makes judging a Senator by his voting record murky at best.

411 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:38:51pm

re: #407 albusteve

Why would I lie about that tho'? You'd think I'd lie for a purpose like xxxxxx and xxxxx (names removed at lawyers insistance)

412 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:38:53pm

re: #380 zora

in hannity's america

I want to go there.re: #388 BryanS

But when you are excluded from any meaningful form of participation in the process, obstruction is all you have.

I would say suck it up and get back to work -- it's not the Democrat's fault that nobody like the Republicans. They have been included, there have been compromises made, and then Republicans vote against their own compromises. "I'm being excluded!" is just another whiney excuse from the Party Of No for not doing a damn thing for their country.

413 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:39:17pm

re: #377 jamesfirecat

Umm... Wasn't TARP created under Bush?

Yep. Bad policy under Bush, made worse by Obama's attempts to raid the repaid funds for pet spending programs.

414 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:39:21pm

re: #388 BryanS

You need to defend statement A. Pelosi is most definitely an extremist. Under her leadership, she forced through legislation so far left, that the Dems could not get all 60 voters in their caucus to agree on most of what she passed.

Why is 60 votes relevant in the house?

Besides, just because she couldn't get enough votes together for a bill to pass doesn't make her an extremist. It makes her like every other Speaker of the House in the history of the US.

415 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:39:29pm

re: #408 NJDhockeyfan

The Republicans can't obstruct anything. The Democrats had the majority on both houses for a year and couldn't get much done.

Democrats have had majority in both houses since 2006. Remember 2006? That was when the economy was really good. Ahhhh, 2006.

416 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:39:37pm

re: #379 cliffster

Ah. He's in the hospital with chest pains, so I was assuming there was something more than unrepentant assholitude in the statement.

I took it as unrepentant assholitude.

417 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:40:10pm

re: #414 Conservative Moonbat

Why is 60 votes relevant in the house?

Besides, just because she couldn't get enough votes together for a bill to pass doesn't make her an extremist. It makes her like every other Speaker of the House in the history of the US.

SanFran Nan! San Francisco values! EXTREMIST!

the usual.

418 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:40:35pm

re: #404 BryanS

Hasn't passed yet...just wait for it. Actually, single payer got taken out in favor of a "public option" which the house bill did a good job of formulating in a way that would lead to almost nobody left having private insurance. Obama has been more practical--extremists in his party, not so much.

stop watching Glenn Beck and come back to Earth.

419 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:40:37pm

re: #413 BryanS

Yep. Bad policy under Bush, made worse by Obama's attempts to raid the repaid funds for pet spending programs.

Except that wasn't congress responsible for writing the bills that spent the money?

420 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:40:49pm

re: #408 NJDhockeyfan

The Republicans can't obstruct anything. The Democrats had the majority on both houses for a year and couldn't get much done.

They filibustered 80% of the bills and that meant they had to get every Democrat's vote since the GOP opposed most every bill.

421 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:40:49pm

re: #390 The Sanity Inspector

Agreed. And yet, of all our Presidents who were of top-notch intellectual caliber, Wilson was the best. Contrast him with the disastrous administration of James Madison, for example.

As I learned at the Wilson Home in D.C., Wilson was the first (only) president to have an earned PhD. He had been President of Princeton Univ.

The Pritzer Military Library in Chicago is having an author talk this Thursday, that I'm rather upset I cannot attend. It is this book.

I'll have to do the podcast, when it is published.

422 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:40:51pm

re: #416 reine.de.tout

I took it as unrepentant assholitude.

Left wing hatred. It's what's for dinner.

423 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:41:10pm

re: #79 SpaceJesus

freep defends joe stack, compares the IRS guy he killed in the attack with nazi clerks during world war 2.

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

Oh dear God.

424 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:41:12pm

That was a well deserved score. American pair in second, two pairs left. Belbin and Agosto up now.

425 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:41:14pm

re: #406 Stonemason

I have never had a long conversation with either of them, and, I have not seen any of President Obama's past grades and such, so there reallly is no way to compare.
If we compare reading speeches, Mr. Obama wins, if we compare off the cuff, Mr. Bush wins
No one here knows truly the intellect of either other than what we are shown on tv.

Umm "off the cuff" what do we have to compare of Bush's against Obama's hour and a half Q&A with the Republcains?

426 Stanghazi  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:41:17pm

re: #417 iceweasel

SanFran Nan! San Francisco values! EXTREMIST!

the usual.

Reminds me of the SNL skit with the safe word - Palimino.

427 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:41:35pm

re: #408 NJDhockeyfan

The Republicans can't obstruct anything. The Democrats had the majority on both houses for a year and couldn't get much done.

& Obama, political klutz, ignites a one-year shouting match on his pet project, health care reform, when the economy is in the tank, which is a much more important thing to deal with, and health care reform should wait.

What a lightweight.

Later, lizards.

428 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:41:38pm

gnite all...I have a client to see in the morning and then a whole day of writing reports....yippeeee!

429 Racer X  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:41:48pm

Famous People Painting - Discussing the Divine Comedy with Dante

Click on a person and you can see their history.
*The painting is very wide so you will have to scroll to the right.

430 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:41:49pm

re: #263 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. He has never really dealt with entrenched clinically insane opposition prior to being president, and now we are all paying while he learns on the fly.

431 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:42:09pm

re: #399 palomino

Agreed more or less.

I think the Dems are actually more aware of the need to appeal to middle America, but they are utterly incapable of communicating any of this. They prefer to navel gaze anyway.

well somebody better be...I'm hardly all about revolutions of Marxist in the WH...buy I cannot imagine what will become of either party if the continue to ignore millions of liberals and conservatives that don't give a shit about Alinski or Beck or any of the rest...this is a huge, broad spectrum of solid, decent, honest voters, a political gold mine, or a disaster if neglected

432 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:42:41pm

re: #427 Ojoe

Ojoe Revealed!

433 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:42:59pm

re: #415 cliffster

Democrats have had majority in both houses since 2006. Remember 2006? That was when the economy was really good. Ahhh, 2006.

Yes and clearly a simple majority in both houses counts for so much in the face of filibusters and vetos!

434 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:43:39pm

re: #404 BryanS

Hasn't passed yet...just wait for it. Actually, single payer got taken out in favor of a "public option" which the house bill did a good job of formulating in a way that would lead to almost nobody left having private insurance. Obama has been more practical--extremists in his party, not so much.

According to the CBO the PO would cover at most 6 million people and cost more than private plans.

435 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:43:48pm

re: #389 PT Barnum

Except that socialized medicine is not what he's ever suggested. Socialized medicine would be the government employing all the doctors and owning all the hospitals. Not going to happen, hasn't been proposed, to my knowledge.

The bank bailouts were begun in the Bush Administration, the stimulus bill has been given credit by most economists as preventing a second great depression, and although the government was involved in taking over GM and Chrysler to a certain extent, I don't see any compelling evidence that they intend to keep ownership any longer than necessary.

Socialized medicine does not mean you have to directly employ the workers. In the soviet union--not intending to compare the health care plan to anything under that system--employees were hired by company managers who took orders from the central government. The House plan would entail the government setting prices and dictating the particulars of the products sold. So not fully socialist--we'll call it socialist-light then.

436 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:44:03pm

re: #420 avanti

They filibustered 80% of the bills and that meant they had to get every Democrat's vote since the GOP opposed most every bill.

Waaambulance! They Filibustered !

437 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:44:11pm

re: #423 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh dear God.

I am truly sorry that Vernon Hunter was killed, because in one sense, I believe he was probably innocent. I’ll have to explain that.

/ gag...

438 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:44:12pm

re: #387 Jimmah

I never hated Bush, but he certainly wasn't a towering intellect. I think it's obvious to all but those with advanced ODS that Obama is quite clearly several leagues ahead of Bush on that score. My point really in posting that video was that for supporters of Bush to be complaining (as they always are) about Obama's alleged lack of smarts is pretty hilarious.

Right. I just went off on a tangent. I think President Obama is a very smart individual. Not to the level of Einstein of course but way above average. If people want to complain a more tactful way of putting it would be "sometimes people are too smart for their own good." I think we would be hard pressed to find anyone in the executive branch that one would classify as being "dumb" which includes the past and the present.

439 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:44:16pm

re: #409 WindUpBird

Wait. So anything Pelosi wanted to put through that say, Lieberman or Nelson didn't want to vote for is extremist? Tell me another one, it's open mic night!

And I'm out, it's just getting too wacky ODS in here. A lot of heat and no light. Wake me when the cheap shots end.

hahaha!....reality is a bitch, it can ruin your day

440 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:44:32pm

re: #420 avanti

They filibustered 80% of the bills and that meant they had to get every Democrat's vote since the GOP opposed most every bill.

The Dems were filibuster-proof in 2009. Why couldn't they pass whatever they wanted?

441 Racer X  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:45:09pm

Those damn Republicans! We can't get anything done!

442 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:45:11pm

re: #406 Stonemason

I have never had a long conversation with either of them, and, I have not seen any of President Obama's past grades and such, so there reallly is no way to compare.
If we compare reading speeches, Mr. Obama wins, if we compare off the cuff, Mr. Bush wins
No one here knows truly the intellect of either other than what we are shown on tv.

You serious about that?(bolded part) lol

You could argue that one ever knows truly the intellect of anyone but through what they put across, via whatever medium. And when it comes to that, between Bush and Obama there isn't even a contest.

443 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:45:13pm

re: #410 Rightwingconspirator

Precisely what makes me a fan of the line item veto. But it fell to constitutional problems. Too bad though. I really hate the "riders', and the poison pill amendments. Makes judging a Senator by his voting record murky at best.

yup...start here tho....
they are all crooked

444 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:45:21pm

re: #425 jamesfirecat

eight years of little things that didn't include the hesitant umms and uhhs. Mr. Bush was a poor speech reader, but when he was asked a question about something he felt passionately about, he could speak. Our current President is not like that, but he can read a speech very well, good cadence and all that.

445 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:45:22pm

My butt still hursts from the visit to the massage therapist today. How can they hurt you this much and not leave bruises?

446 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:45:33pm

re: #409 WindUpBird

Wait. So anything Pelosi wanted to put through that say, Lieberman or Nelson didn't want to vote for is extremist? Tell me another one, it's open mic night!

And I'm out, it's just getting too wacky ODS in here. A lot of heat and no light. Wake me when the cheap shots end.

No cheap shots here. But yes, if she passes tripe that cannot unify moderates in her party, then yes, she is an extremist.

447 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:45:51pm

re: #435 BryanS

Socialized medicine does not mean you have to directly employ the workers. In the soviet union--not intending to compare the health care plan to anything under that system--employees were hired by company managers who took orders from the central government. The House plan would entail the government setting prices and dictating the particulars of the products sold. So not fully socialist--we'll call it socialist-light then.

We already have socialist light with Medicare and Medicaid don't we?

448 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:46:22pm

re: #436 Bagua

Waaambulance! They Filibustered !

Waaaambulance!! We're Repubs and we're being excluded from the process, so we're gonna filibuster.

449 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:46:28pm

re: #440 NJDhockeyfan

The Dems were filibuster-proof in 2009. Why couldn't they pass whatever they wanted?

Because one part of that Majority was a man who SUPPORTED THE PRESIDENTS OPPONENT!

So I bet that meant as soon as it turned out his guy didn't win he couldn't wait to support Obama's agenda!

450 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:46:28pm

re: #427 Ojoe

& Obama, political klutz, ignites a one-year shouting match on his pet project, health care reform, when the economy is in the tank, which is a much more important thing to deal with, and health care reform should wait.

What a lightweight.

Later, lizards.

What? How dare you find fault with He Who Can Not Be Criticized™ ?!?

451 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:46:31pm

re: #440 NJDhockeyfan

Because they didn't have the party unity and discipline that the Republicans did, of course. Its not natural to have an entire delegation to be in lockstep, so they had to sell too much stuff out to corrupt bastards like Leibermann.

452 zora  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:47:00pm

re: #444 Stonemason

bush couldn't explain himself out of a paper bad. what is this the twilight zone. gwb right?

453 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:47:08pm

re: #444 Stonemason

eight years of little things that didn't include the hesitant umms and uhhs. Mr. Bush was a poor speech reader, but when he was asked a question about something he felt passionately about, he could speak. Our current President is not like that, but he can read a speech very well, good cadence and all that.

What things do you think Bush felt passionate about?

Did Bush ever do a Q&A with the Democrats?

454 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:47:16pm

re: #440 NJDhockeyfan

The Dems were filibuster-proof in 2009.

...for 3 months.

455 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:47:27pm

re: #412 Vambo

I would say suck it up and get back to work -- it's not the Democrat's fault that nobody like the Republicans. They have been included, there have been compromises made, and then Republicans vote against their own compromises. "I'm being excluded!" is just another whiney excuse from the Party Of No for not doing a damn thing for their country.

Two can play schoolyard tit-for-tat-- it's not anybody's fault that the Dems couldn't hold their caucus together, allowing the Repubs to block. Blaming Dem failures when they controlled all bodies of government is pretty whiny if you ask me.

456 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:47:49pm

re: #448 Vambo

Waaambulance!! We're Repubs and we're being excluded from the process, so we're gonna filibuster.

Waaaah! That's it, I'm taking my toys and going home!

457 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:48:11pm

re: #440 NJDhockeyfan

The Dems were filibuster-proof in 2009. Why couldn't they pass whatever they wanted?

"I am not a member of any organized party — I am a Democrat."

Will Rogers- 1935

458 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:48:22pm

re: #456 Bagua

Youtube Video
459 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:48:25pm

re: #456 Bagua

Waaah! That's it, I'm taking my toys and going home!

Who needs CPAC when we have you guys?

460 zora  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:48:50pm

sometimes bush didn't even understand the questions. favorite book? the bible. most influential person? jesus christ. palin can do this.

461 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:49:12pm

re: #414 Conservative Moonbat

Why is 60 votes relevant in the house?

Besides, just because she couldn't get enough votes together for a bill to pass doesn't make her an extremist. It makes her like every other Speaker of the House in the history of the US.

It makes her like every speaker of the house--except for every other speaker of the house. 60 votes is relevant to getting legislation passed in the Senate. This has always been true, and every previous speaker managed to be able to pass legislation that would end up passing the Senate.

462 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:49:15pm

re: #438 Gus 802

Right. I just went off on a tangent. I think President Obama is a very smart individual. Not to the level of Einstein of course but way above average. If people want to complain a more tactful way of putting it would be "sometimes people are too smart for their own good." I think we would be hard pressed to find anyone in the executive branch that one would classify as being "dumb" which includes the past and the present.

BO is a blubbering boob...we are talking politics here not Times crossword puzzles...what's the point, he doesn't cut it as POTUS

463 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:49:25pm

Man I need to go to work, but this has been a damn fun evening. Its hard to tear myself away!

464 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:49:37pm

re: #441 Racer X

Those damn Republicans! We can't get anything done!

Looks like you found a Nancy Pelosi baby picture. :D

465 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:49:42pm

re: #460 zora

sometimes bush didn't even understand the questions. favorite book? the bible. most influential person? jesus christ. palin can do this.

He was sincere, wasn't he?

466 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:49:57pm

re: #460 zora

sometimes bush didn't even understand the questions. favorite book? the bible. most influential person? jesus christ. palin can do this.

Master's Degree? Harvard.

467 Racer X  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:50:08pm

Nancy Pelosi's Greatest Hits

Youtube Video
468 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:50:15pm

re: #455 BryanS

Two can play schoolyard tit-for-tat-- it's not anybody's fault that the Dems couldn't hold their caucus together, allowing the Repubs to block. Blaming Dem failures when they controlled all bodies of government is pretty whiny if you ask me.

I blame Dem failures on Democrats too -- Liebermann (I-Aetna) is not really a Democrat anyway.

469 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:50:17pm

re: #419 PT Barnum

Except that wasn't congress responsible for writing the bills that spent the money?

Yes, and also the Dem congress who wrote and passed the original TARP.

470 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:50:23pm

re: #451 windsagio

Because they didn't have the party unity and discipline that the Republicans did, of course. Its not natural to have an entire delegation to be in lockstep, so they had to sell too much stuff out to corrupt bastards like Leibermann.

Lieberman is corrupt? I missed that story. Is he under investigation for corruption?

471 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:50:24pm

re: #462 albusteve

BO is a blubbering boob...we are talking politics here not Times crossword puzzles...what's the point, he doesn't cut it as POTUS

Oh, now you are just being petty.

472 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:50:44pm

re: #357 BryanS

Every one of those things is embraced by conservatives in one way or another.

473 sngnsgt  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:50:45pm

re: #463 windsagio

Upding for having work to go to.

474 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:51:01pm

re: #470 NJDhockeyfan

He's probably not legally corrupt, but the law only goes so far.


/I suffer from LDS.

475 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:51:08pm

re: #471 austin_blue

Oh, now you are just being petty.

just don't call me Tom

476 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:51:15pm

re: #462 albusteve

BO is a blubbering boob...we are talking politics here not Times crossword puzzles...what's the point, he doesn't cut it as POTUS

This would be the time when I say "Put up or shut up". Surely you're at least twice as smart as some boob, so let's see it. Because so far I'm just seeing some guy ranting on the internet with poor grammar.

477 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:51:16pm

re: #473 sngnsgt

Oh dude that's brutal!

478 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:51:20pm

A lot of this reminds me of a joke Jon Stewart made during the campaign. He criticized Obama and got a deafening silence from the audience. Stewart said "You know, it's okay to laugh at the guy."

Take a few breaths. It's okay to criticize a politician, even if you agree with him most of the time. Even if you feel he is the right guy for the job.

Valid criticism is not ODS. It's just, you know, valid criticism.

479 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:51:35pm

re: #459 McSpiff

Who needs CPAC when we have you guys?

Who needs TV or anything with all this intelligent company? If we can't come up with some agreeable bi-partisan solutions here, what chance do those clueless politicians have?

480 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:51:45pm

re: #418 Vambo

stop watching Glenn Beck and come back to Earth.

Nothing I said was extreme--argue specific points and I can respond.

481 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:51:54pm

re: #475 albusteve

just don't call me Tom

or Shirley!

;)

482 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:51:59pm

re: #462 albusteve

BO is a blubbering boob...we are talking politics here not Times crossword puzzles...what's the point, he doesn't cut it as POTUS

Some people see a glass half full while others see a glass half empty.

483 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:52:01pm

re: #442 Jimmah

that's because you see what you want to see. Back when grades and such were being compared it turned out that Mr. Bush did better in school that Mr. Gore, then, all of a sudden, grades meant nothing.
It takes more than book learnin' to be President, it takes knowledge. Mr. Bush, while not our most knowledgeable President, was not dumb either.

And yes, what I hear from Mr. Obama is continued campaign rhetoric, I had eight years of listening to Mr. Bush, so I do still feel that he is better off the cuff. Ask me again in four years, maybe Mr. Obama will change my mind.

484 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:52:14pm

re: #463 windsagio

Man I need to go to work, but this has been a damn fun evening. Its hard to tear myself away!

Just call in sick. Tell them you have a severe case of BDS.

/entirely kidding

485 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:52:16pm

re: #435 BryanS

Socialized medicine does not mean you have to directly employ the workers. In the soviet union--not intending to compare the health care plan to anything under that system--employees were hired by company managers who took orders from the central government. The House plan would entail the government setting prices and dictating the particulars of the products sold. So not fully socialist--we'll call it socialist-light then.

Actually, that's exactly what socialized medicine means. In the USSR everyone was a government employee so the division of labor didn't matter a whole lot.

There's socialized medicine in the UK and a few other countries but not in Canada and it's never been proposed in the US. The most radical thing leftists ever wanted in the US was singer payer which still would not be socialized medicine.

486 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:52:26pm

re: #474 windsagio

He's probably not legally corrupt, but the law only goes so far.

/I suffer from LDS.

At least you are honest.

487 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:52:51pm

re: #484 Dark_Falcon

haha I have to go relieve WUB. He'd KNOW what I'm actually doing :P

488 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:52:56pm

re: #470 NJDhockeyfan

Lieberman is corrupt? I missed that story. Is he under investigation for corruption?

His wife works for Aetna... conflict of interest? no, of course not.

489 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:52:58pm

Waiting...

490 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:53:03pm

re: #461 BryanS

It makes her like every speaker of the house--except for every other speaker of the house. 60 votes is relevant to getting legislation passed in the Senate. This has always been true, and every previous speaker managed to be able to pass legislation that would end up passing the Senate.

You sir may in my opinion f*** right off.

Please take a look at this.

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]


Then try and tell me how the 60 "always been true".

Also notice that there has been a new high for total number of filibusters conducted eight times. Guess which party was in the minority seven out of those eight times?

491 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:53:17pm

Canada, US, US?

492 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:53:20pm

re: #480 BryanS

Nothing I said was extreme--argue specific points and I can respond.

Upding for wanting to argue specific points.

493 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:53:25pm

re: #310 Ojoe

You are not serious. Try and be serious. Have you children? How much history have you read? How many did we lose in WW2?

Etc.

That's ail the response you will get from me for the foreseeable future.

Iran has invaded how many countries? That's right Iraq invaded Iran, and we backed Saddam in that one.

494 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:53:28pm

re: #486 NJDhockeyfan

I try to always be honest.

I just can't stand that guy. He's also deeply in the pockets of the insurance companies. He's also a spiteful douche.

495 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:53:35pm

re: #447 jamesfirecat

We already have socialist light with Medicare and Medicaid don't we?

Yes we do. Fine job it's doing bankrupting us.

496 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:53:57pm

re: #462 albusteve

BO is a blubbering boob...we are talking politics here not Times crossword puzzles...what's the point, he doesn't cut it as POTUS

Yes that must have been why the Republicans made him look like a fool when he stood in front of them for an hour and a half WITHOUT A TELEPROMPTER answering their questions.

497 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:54:30pm

re: #476 McSpiff

This would be the time when I say "Put up or shut up". Surely you're at least twice as smart as some boob, so let's see it. Because so far I'm just seeing some guy ranting on the internet with poor grammar.

I don't care what you see...defend BOs sterling first year and change my mind...he iced some pirates, what else?...he continues the Bush era policies of rendition, wire taps, Gitmo...if you think I rant against BO then square it with some juice

498 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:54:33pm

Ack! We wuz robbed!

499 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:54:53pm

re: #468 Vambo

I blame Dem failures on Democrats too -- Liebermann (I-Aetna) is not really a Democrat anyway.

How dare that bastard Lieberman work to protect the interests of the corporations who provide jobs for his constituents! It's not like he owes those voters anything!

500 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:54:54pm

re: #438 Gus 802

Right. I just went off on a tangent. I think President Obama is a very smart individual. Not to the level of Einstein of course but way above average. If people want to complain a more tactful way of putting it would be "sometimes people are too smart for their own good." I think we would be hard pressed to find anyone in the executive branch that one would classify as being "dumb" which includes the past and the present.

I don't have a problem with someone saying Obama makes bad choices even though he's bright enough. Just because a guy is bright does not make him a good leader, nor does a good leader need to be a intellectual.
I do have a problem with someone questioning Obama's intelligence, since by any measure, he's bright enough.

501 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:54:58pm

re: #170 Obdicut

OH man, I just saw this on the comments on Brown's blog thing:

Emphasis mine.

No wonder he feels he can vote no and get away with it. He's a goddamn giant.

When he sits around the House, he really sits around the House.

502 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:54:59pm

re: #495 BryanS

Can you answer the following question?

What is the cost of doing nothing on health insurance reform?

503 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:55:44pm

re: #496 jamesfirecat

Yes that must have been why the Republicans made him look like a fool when he stood in front of them for an hour and a half WITHOUT A TELEPROMPTER answering their questions.

Honestly, I love that situation. It was a conversation; no one really was an asshole and nothing stood out. Obama didn't sound like a complete idiot, and Democrats have been hailing victory since then. Yay! Our president went more than 30 minutes without sounding stupid!

504 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:55:59pm

re: #496 jamesfirecat

Yes that must have been why the Republicans made him look like a fool when he stood in front of them for an hour and a half WITHOUT A TELEPROMPTER answering their questions.

wow, awesome dood!

505 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:56:03pm

re: #440 NJDhockeyfan

The Dems were filibuster-proof in 2009. Why couldn't they pass whatever they wanted?

A few solid bills got through

Lieberman was never a democrat. A couple of the other DINOs are more conservative than Collins and Snowe.

Don't forget that health care reform was approved by both houses and there's nothing but technicalities to keep it from being enacted, and it will be.

506 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:56:20pm

re: #468 Vambo

I blame Dem failures on Democrats too -- Liebermann (I-Aetna) is not really a Democrat anyway.

Too much is made of Lieberman not being a Dem any more. He always was a liberal on domestic policies--perhaps a touch social moderate and certainly a hawk, but otherwise moderate liberal.

507 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:56:21pm

re: #483 Stonemason

that's because you see what you want to see. Back when grades and such were being compared it turned out that Mr. Bush did better in school that Mr. Gore, then, all of a sudden, grades meant nothing.
It takes more than book learnin' to be President, it takes knowledge. Mr. Bush, while not our most knowledgeable President, was not dumb either.

And yes, what I hear from Mr. Obama is continued campaign rhetoric, I had eight years of listening to Mr. Bush, so I do still feel that he is better off the cuff. Ask me again in four years, maybe Mr. Obama will change my mind.

Did his showing at the Q&A have any bearing on your feelings towards how good Obama is off the cuff?

508 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:56:29pm

re: #503 cliffster

You really think he only reached the 'didn't sound like a complete idiot' mark?

Honestly?

509 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:56:39pm

re: #499 Dark_Falcon

How dare that bastard Lieberman work to protect the interests of the corporations who provide jobs for his constituents! It's not like he owes those voters anything!

Last time I checked, he had a 20% approval rating here in CT.

Even Aetna workers want socialized medicine, it would seem.

510 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:56:53pm

re: #508 Obdicut

You really think he only reached the 'didn't sound like a complete idiot' mark?

Honestly?

honestly.

511 palomino  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:56:54pm

re: #431 albusteve

well somebody better be...I'm hardly all about revolutions of Marxist in the WH...buy I cannot imagine what will become of either party if the continue to ignore millions of liberals and conservatives that don't give a shit about Alinski or Beck or any of the rest...this is a huge, broad spectrum of solid, decent, honest voters, a political gold mine, or a disaster if neglected

But to today's GOP base, the losses of McCain, Dole and Bush Sr prove that repubs lose unless they run to the far right. To the base, moderating is a sign of weakness, almost appeasement. Liberal Dems do the same thing, but Dem orthodoxy isn't this strong--they're chaotic, barely even deserving of the title political party.

512 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:57:02pm

re: #453 jamesfirecat

Every time he faced the press he had a Q&A with democrats (except for a few).

Look, we are not going to agree on this, you refuse (as do most liberals) to look at Mr. Bush with anything even approaching objectivity. I admit that most of my criticisms of Mr. Obama come from my world view as well, but I am willing to give him time to prove himself. If the Obama that gave the keynote at the 2008 DNC were to ever come out of hiding I would support him.

513 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:57:07pm

Time for me to get some sleeps

Robert Plant-Ship of Fools

Youtube Video
514 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:57:33pm

re: #509 Vambo


Well he F'd them in the A! (the people of Connetticut that is)

515 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:58:03pm

re: #438 Gus 802

Right. I just went off on a tangent. I think President Obama is a very smart individual. Not to the level of Einstein of course but way above average. If people want to complain a more tactful way of putting it would be "sometimes people are too smart for their own good." I think we would be hard pressed to find anyone in the executive branch that one would classify as being "dumb" which includes the past and the present.

Agreed. And I don't actually think Bush was dumb either - I've defended him many times against the charge of being 'an idiot'. The charge of being an inferior intellect is just especially ludicrous and mean spirited in the case of Obama, however. Some folks need to get a grip of their ODS - it's just making them look totally unreasonable to anyone who doesn't share their condition.

516 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:58:14pm

re: #497 albusteve

I don't care what you see...defend BOs sterling first year and change my mind...he iced some pirates, what else?...he continues the Bush era policies of rendition, wire taps, Gitmo...if you think I rant against BO then square it with some juice

I'm not talking about his politics, I couldn't give two shits about that. You're ranting and raving like the man is barely literate while you apparently have no idea what punctuation is.

Attack his politics, fine. But to call the POTUS 'some boob' and write him off as some idiot sitting in the oval office is exactly the kind of thing I fought for 8 years of Bush. I was really hoping the right wouldn't let jealousy get the better of them, but I'm seeing now that thinking that was woefully naive of me.

517 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:58:15pm

re: #501 SanFranciscoZionist

When he sits around the House, he really sits around the House.

Upding for the Fresh Prince of Bel-Aire joke. We need more of those around here.

518 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:58:23pm

re: #446 BryanS

No cheap shots here. But yes, if she passes tripe that cannot unify moderates in her party, then yes, she is an extremist.

If she's and extremest, what are these guys?

519 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:58:25pm

re: #509 Vambo

Last time I checked, he had a 20% approval rating here in CT.

Even Aetna workers want socialized medicine, it would seem.

Lieberman has only one constituent whose interests he consistently looks out for-- himself.
He's a petty, spiteful man.

520 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:58:46pm

re: #503 cliffster

Honestly, I love that situation. It was a conversation; no one really was an asshole and nothing stood out. Obama didn't sound like a complete idiot, and Democrats have been hailing victory since then. Yay! Our president went more than 30 minutes without sounding stupid!

Did Bush ever do a Q&A with the Democratic senators?

521 albusteve  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:59:10pm

defend BOs record...calling his critics ODS sufferers means you have nothing...albusteve has ODS!...oh my! haha!, limp

I'm out like Charlie Powell

522 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 8:59:42pm

re: #447 jamesfirecat

We already have socialist light with Medicare and Medicaid don't we?

Those are both examples o single payer health care systems, NOT socialized medicine. All health care providers are privately employed.

523 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:00:06pm

re: #510 cliffster

Well, okay then. I don't think you'll find yourself in very large company in that.

I've never been a gigantic Obama fan. He made numerous statements during the campaign-- like on corn biodiesel-- that made me doubt his judgement in some areas.

However, I can easily see that he's thinking on his feet, making statements that he can build on later, and doing an excellent job, on several occasions, of showing the weakness in his opponent's argument and completely undercutting it.

524 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:00:20pm

re: #512 Stonemason

Every time he faced the press he had a Q&A with democrats (except for a few).

Look, we are not going to agree on this, you refuse (as do most liberals) to look at Mr. Bush with anything even approaching objectivity. I admit that most of my criticisms of Mr. Obama come from my world view as well, but I am willing to give him time to prove himself. If the Obama that gave the keynote at the 2008 DNC were to ever come out of hiding I would support him.

What did you see at the 2008 DNC that you don't see in the current Obama?

525 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:00:23pm

re: #497 albusteve

I don't care what you see...defend BOs sterling first year and change my mind...he iced some pirates, what else?...he continues the Bush era policies of rendition, wire taps, Gitmo...if you think I rant against BO then square it with some juice

How about the the ramp up in Afghanistan where the real bad guys are, for one ? BTW, just because he's continuing some of the Bush policies does not make him a bad guy.

526 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:00:45pm

re: #519 iceweasel

Lieberman has only one constituent whose interests he consistently looks out for-- himself.
He's a petty, spiteful man.

I think that applies to every politican.

It id all about votes.

527 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:01:02pm

re: #238 Ojoe

Obama does not have the intellect to get a good handle on the grand sweep of history, nor on the way the world really works, and he is often led astray by illusions of an ideal world.

2nd class intellect at best IMHO.

Updinged not because I agree, but because I once got downdinged for saying something much milder about Ronald Reagan. Guys, let's not downding over mild insults to POLITICIANS.

528 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:01:09pm

re: #485 Conservative Moonbat

Actually, that's exactly what socialized medicine means. In the USSR everyone was a government employee so the division of labor didn't matter a whole lot.

There's socialized medicine in the UK and a few other countries but not in Canada and it's never been proposed in the US. The most radical thing leftists ever wanted in the US was singer payer which still would not be socialized medicine.

I guess it is a matter of degree on how much control is needed before it is called socialized. I would call medicare/medicaid government run (socialized) medicine--as I have heard Dems publicly state (the government run part, anyway). Again, setting prices, dictating the product sold is control in my mind. It's only slightly better than the government doing the hiring and administration directly, but not much.

529 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:01:16pm

re: #512 Stonemason

Every time he faced the press he had a Q&A with democrats (except for a few).

Look, we are not going to agree on this, you refuse (as do most liberals) to look at Mr. Bush with anything even approaching objectivity. I admit that most of my criticisms of Mr. Obama come from my world view as well, but I am willing to give him time to prove himself. If the Obama that gave the keynote at the 2008 DNC were to ever come out of hiding I would support him.

By the way I love your "liberal media, therefore reporters = democratic senators" analogy!

530 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:02:00pm

re: #493 Olsonist

Iran has invaded how many countries? That's right Iraq invaded Iran, and we backed Saddam in that one.

Iran was holding American hostages at the time of the war's outbreak. IIRC, our "backing" of Saddam commenced two years later, when Iran was in danger of prevailing, and spreading the Islamic revolution westwards. Pure realpolitik, nothing more--although liberals ever afterwards insisted it was because eeeeeevilllll Cheney and Rumsfeld couldn't help but bunny-hug their fellow monster, Saddam.

/*spit*

531 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:02:32pm

re: #250 Ojoe

for one thing he thinks he can sweet talk ahmadinejad

Or, he's smart enough to play mind games with him--Persian style--rather than banging his shoe on the table. My own take: Obama plays the Middle East rather well.

532 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:02:46pm

Well, I've got physio tomorrow, so early(ish) to bed for me. Have a good night folks :)

Youtube Video
533 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:02:57pm

re: #521 albusteve

defend BOs record...calling his critics ODS sufferers means you have nothing...albusteve has ODS!...oh my! haha!, limp

I'm out like Charlie Powell

Not all opinions have equal weight. If you can bring sometime intelligent to the table, I'll debate it. If you want to rant and rave in a fantasy world, well, the label ODS fits.

534 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:03:21pm

re: #461 BryanS

It makes her like every speaker of the house--except for every other speaker of the house. 60 votes is relevant to getting legislation passed in the Senate. This has always been true, and every previous speaker managed to be able to pass legislation that would end up passing the Senate.

No, every other speaker of the house ever has had legislation they couldn't move out of the house. If you're claiming that anyone else had a 100% batting average I want to know who it was.

The 60 vote number doesn't mean dick in the house.

535 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:03:25pm

re: #527 SanFranciscoZionist

Updinged not because I agree, but because I once got downdinged for saying something much milder about Ronald Reagan. Guys, let's not downding over mild insults to POLITICIANS.

I second the motion.

536 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:03:27pm

re: #530 The Sanity Inspector


Our behavior during the Iran/Iraq war was cynical and duplicitous, especially since it followed the heels of our support of the Shah.

537 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:03:27pm

re: #522 Conservative Moonbat

Those are both examples o single payer health care systems, NOT socialized medicine. All health care providers are privately employed.

Then let's go full single payer for every citizen of every age, and then no one will be able to accuse us of trying to enforce socialized medicine!

/Yeah Right...

538 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:03:48pm

re: #520 jamesfirecat

Did Bush ever do a Q&A with the Democratic senators?

How long until the standard response to a comment about Obama stops being "Bush this, Bush that"?

539 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:03:54pm

re: #490 jamesfirecat

You sir may in my opinion f*** right off.

Please take a look at this.

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

Then try and tell me how the 60 "always been true".

Also notice that there has been a new high for total number of filibusters conducted eight times. Guess which party was in the minority seven out of those eight times?

No thanx, but I seem to recall the Repubs whining vociferously over Dem obstructionism when they had control of all branches of government. Dems loved the filibuster then.

540 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:03:57pm

re: #532 Jimmah

Well, I've got physio tomorrow, so early(ish) to bed for me. Have a good night folks :)


[Video]

Goodnight, Jimmah. I hope you have a good session tomorrow.

541 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:04:03pm

re: #483 Stonemason

that's because you see what you want to see. Back when grades and such were being compared it turned out that Mr. Bush did better in school that Mr. Gore, then, all of a sudden, grades meant nothing.
It takes more than book learnin' to be President, it takes knowledge. Mr. Bush, while not our most knowledgeable President, was not dumb either.

And yes, what I hear from Mr. Obama is continued campaign rhetoric, I had eight years of listening to Mr. Bush, so I do still feel that he is better off the cuff. Ask me again in four years, maybe Mr. Obama will change my mind.

Well, GW wasn't dumb, but he was horribly ill read. I think sometimes that a good classical education is better than raw smarts. Obama appears to have had both. He was the son of a single mother and he went to an OK prep school in Hawaii. Then Columbia. He did well enough there to get into Harvard. He was obviously good enough to excel there. If he hadn't, he wouldn't have been the editor of the Harvard Law Review.

542 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:04:28pm

re: #538 cliffster

How long until the standard response to a comment about Obama stops being "Bush this, Bush that"?

Maybe 30 or 40 years from now?

543 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:04:37pm

re: #277 Ojoe

Get serious man they are building nuclear explosives as fast as they can.

And this is a change from the last administration how? It's a big problem, yes.

544 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:04:38pm

re: #539 BryanS

Did you really just say 'no thanx' and ignore a piece of evidence?

545 Racer X  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:04:52pm

re: #537 jamesfirecat

Then let's go full single payer for every citizen of every age

I like that idea.

546 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:05:31pm

re: #279 windsagio

I TOTALLY SHOULDN'T DO THIS!

BUT I AM GOING TO!!!

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!

/It was the best thing that ever happened to G.W. Bush :P

I'm sure he'd rather have been a one-term goofball. I have enough respect for the man to be sure of that.

547 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:05:34pm

re: #530 The Sanity Inspector

Iran was holding American hostages at the time of the war's outbreak. IIRC, our "backing" of Saddam commenced two years later, when Iran was in danger of prevailing, and spreading the Islamic revolution westwards. Pure realpolitik, nothing more--although liberals ever afterwards insisted it was because eeevilll Cheney and Rumsfeld couldn't help but bunny-hug their fellow monster, Saddam.

/*spit*

Oh, so our backing of Iraq's invasion, that would be our backing of Saddam Hussein, was two years after the release of the hostages. That just makes too much sense.

No actually it doesn't. It just puts the lie to any neoconservative claim to morality or freedom. Not realpolitik. Real stupid.

548 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:05:46pm

re: #533 McSpiff

Not all opinions have equal weight. If you can bring sometime intelligent to the table, I'll debate it. If you want to rant and rave in a fantasy world, well, the label ODS fits.

That is unnecessary, Steve has made his objections clear and they are as valid as anyone's opinions here.

549 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:05:49pm

re: #536 Obdicut

Our behavior during the Iran/Iraq war was cynical and duplicitous, especially since it followed the heels of our support of the Shah.

"Especially"? How so?

550 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:06:16pm

re: #543 SanFranciscoZionist

And this is a change from the last administration how? It's a big problem, yes.

Again, it's Bush's fault. This mantra is getting very old.

551 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:06:27pm

re: #288 BryanS

Anybody really care about the Scott Brown vote? It doesn't bother this conservative. He is from Massachusetts afterall, and it really wasn't such a huge bill anyway.

I care. I'm pleased to see that he's representing his constituents, and appears to be able to make good decisions and elaborate sensibly on them.

552 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:06:39pm

re: #290 NJDhockeyfan

A lot of commentators hoping he dies. It's really bad over there.

Ah, jeez.

553 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:06:42pm

re: #536 Obdicut

Our behavior during the Iran/Iraq war was cynical and duplicitous, especially since it followed the heels of our support of the Shah.

Even if it was cynical and duplicitous, so what? It was a bad situation that we played as best as we could. We had two bad actors and we really could not afford to have either win a decisive victory.

554 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:06:45pm

re: #539 BryanS

No thanx, but I seem to recall the Repubs whining vociferously over Dem obstructionism when they had control of all branches of government. Dems loved the filibuster then.

LOOK AT THE NUMBERS!

Democrats have only one year filibustered more than the Republicans, and every MAJOR jump to the total number of filibusters took place under Republican control.

In short, look at the numbers.

The republicans can not honestly say that the democrats obstruct more than they do, if they do THEY ARE LIEING!

555 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:06:53pm

re: #523 Obdicut

Well, okay then. I don't think you'll find yourself in very large company in that.

I've never been a gigantic Obama fan. He made numerous statements during the campaign-- like on corn biodiesel-- that made me doubt his judgement in some areas.

However, I can easily see that he's thinking on his feet, making statements that he can build on later, and doing an excellent job, on several occasions, of showing the weakness in his opponent's argument and completely undercutting it.

I don't see anything in President Obama that's different from Candidate Obama. All generalities, playing on class envy, and canned responses.

556 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:06:55pm

re: #548 Bagua

That is unnecessary, Steve has made his objections clear and they are as valid as anyone's opinions here.

Word. I disagree with Steve often, but you are spot on right there.

Well, bedtime. Have a safe and fun evening everyone.

557 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:07:02pm

re: #502 Obdicut

Can you answer the following question?

What is the cost of doing nothing on health insurance reform?

I can answer in the abstract--expensive. Answer this question, how does a government takeover cost us less? So far, no analysis has said it would. Oh, for the poor it will be "affordable", but that affordability is subsidized by those paying full price.

558 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:07:24pm

re: #298 albusteve

that's bullshit, there is no such thing

Steve doesn't believe in fairies, unicorns, or ODS.

559 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:07:41pm

re: #545 Racer X

I like that idea.

I believe is known as Medicare plan-E

E for Everbody.

I'd be good with it, and it'd be nice and simple, so that everybody could understand it.

So naturally of course our congress won't even touch the idea....

560 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:07:44pm

re: #541 austin_blue

Well, GW wasn't dumb, but he was horribly ill read. I think sometimes that a good classical education is better than raw smarts. Obama appears to have had both. He was the son of a single mother and he went to an OK prep school in Hawaii. Then Columbia. He did well enough there to get into Harvard. He was obviously good enough to excel there. If he hadn't, he wouldn't have been the editor of the Harvard Law Review.

He's an American success story straight out of Central Casting. But unless he gets things moving his way soon, he's in danger of falling victim to the Peter Principle.

561 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:08:07pm

re: #507 jamesfirecat

I was at work that day, I did not see it live, and to be honest, I took the general consensus from here that he did rather well. So, since this seems important to you, I'll give Mr. Obama one point.

That will negate the...well let's see, which one shall I pick...okay, we'll negate the Special Olympics crack. Now we just have to get past the Las Vegas stuff, calling his Grandma a racist (along with all the rest of us typical white people), and the rest of the off the cuff mistakes Mr. Obama has made.

So, list for me the glaring off the cuff mistakes Mr. Bush has made....

(and I'll even give you "mission accomplished")re: #520 jamesfirecat

562 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:08:39pm

re: #545 Racer X

I like that idea.

Me too. Somehow, the rest of the western world hasn't collapsed.

563 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:09:00pm

re: #518 Conservative Moonbat

If she's and extremest, what are these guys?

Pelosi's friends :?)
/

564 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:09:10pm

re: #520 jamesfirecat

He had Democrats at the White House all the time, as Presidents do. He didn't feel it necessary to televise it, trying hard to get out from under a badly broken campaign promise to be more open.

565 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:09:10pm

re: #519 iceweasel

Lieberman has only one constituent whose interests he consistently looks out for-- himself.
He's a petty, spiteful man.

Support for the public option in CT
[Link: www.myleftnutmeg.com...]

Lieberman does not represent his state, plain and simple. He needs to go. This is why I can empathize with all those "abolish the Senate" types.

566 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:09:12pm

re: #553 Dark_Falcon

Even if it was cynical and duplicitous, so what? It was a bad situation that we played as best as we could. We had two bad actors and we really could not afford to have either win a decisive victory.

Much easier to lazily blame the U.S. than to think geopolitical conundrums through.

567 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:09:59pm

re: #550 NJDhockeyfan

Again, it's Bush's fault. This mantra is getting very old.

Bush, the limitless source of blame and historical revision. Re-interpret everything to blame Blush and chew away at it relentlessly. Eventually everyone else will tire of the subject and victory is yours! What fun.

568 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:10:00pm

re: #515 Jimmah

Agreed. And I don't actually think Bush was dumb either - I've defended him many times against the charge of being 'an idiot'. The charge of being an inferior intellect is just especially ludicrous and mean spirited in the case of Obama, however. Some folks need to get a grip of their ODS - it's just making them look totally unreasonable to anyone who doesn't share their condition.

I always figured Bush is about was about as bright as me. I just expect better from the president.

569 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:10:25pm

re: #557 BryanS

I can answer in the abstract--expensive. Answer this question, how does a government takeover cost us less? So far, no analysis has said it would. Oh, for the poor it will be "affordable", but that affordability is subsidized by those paying full price.

Our current system subsidizes the poor as well what with how the ER has to treat anyone who comes in regardless of if they can pay for it or not when the bill comes due....

570 Racer X  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:10:31pm

What time is it?

571 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:11:05pm

Newsflash - Bush is not the President any more.re: #570 Racer X

that's sweet

572 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:11:20pm

re: #548 Bagua

That is unnecessary, Steve has made his objections clear and they are as valid as anyone's opinions here.

I've had way too many discussions with Steve that end in his paranoid rantings for me to sit back and listen to him describe an editor of the Harvard Law Review, Senator and the President of the United States as a 'Boob'. Sorry.

573 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:11:36pm

re: #571 cliffster

Oops. Bush is not President any more, and Racer's clock is sweet.

574 avanti  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:11:43pm

re: #560 The Sanity Inspector

He's an American success story straight out of Central Casting. But unless he gets things moving his way soon, he's in danger of falling victim to the Peter Principle.

The Peter Principle is a perfect fit, we'll see. I agree he did not hit the ground running, but I hope he's bright enough to grow into the job.

575 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:12:01pm

re: #534 Conservative Moonbat

No, every other speaker of the house ever has had legislation they couldn't move out of the house. If you're claiming that anyone else had a 100% batting average I want to know who it was.

The 60 vote number doesn't mean dick in the house.

The level of Pelosi's failure is astounding--not that nothing got through, but nothing of any significance beyond the newly elected government honeymoon vote on stimulus.

It was funny how Bush was supposedly so stupid, but he managed to get most of his priorities through Congress even with Dem filibusters.

576 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:12:26pm

How about a 305 Million-payer system?

The further we remove the decision making (IMHO is hand-and hand with the paying part) from the patient, the lower the quality and the higher the cost.

577 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:12:44pm

re: #568 Conservative Moonbat

I always figured Bush is about was about as bright as me. I just expect better from the president.

If Einstein had the entire MSM working overtime to concoct ridicule and Einstein didn't use a teleprompter, we'd all think he was a dummy too.

578 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:13:32pm

re: #544 Obdicut

Did you really just say 'no thanx' and ignore a piece of evidence?

No, I said no thanx to being told to f-off. I thought i was being rather polite--unlike the douche who down dinged me for not wanting to f-off.

579 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:13:52pm

re: #577 Bagua

If Einstein had the entire MSM working overtime to concoct ridicule and Einstein didn't use a teleprompter, we'd all think he was a dummy too.

Quite Concur.

580 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:13:54pm

One more: Pat Metheny + 42 string Pikasso

Youtube Video
581 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:14:30pm

re: #575 BryanS

When did the Democrats filibuster Bush? There were cloture voes, but when did the Democrats filibuster?

582 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:14:39pm

re: #524 jamesfirecat

A man that truly transcended race, I'm sure he was taken to task in private for the 'black man with a book' comment because the new improved version couches things in language so as to appease the baiters.

I saw a man that was proud to be where he was, almost humbled to be where he was, and now I see a man that appears to think he has actually achieved that Peace Prize (well, I guess since being a popular liberal is the only requirement, I guess he has). That Obama had me literally standing in my living room, this Obama scares me, but, maybe he will learn, or remember.

583 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:14:59pm

re: #575 BryanS

The level of Pelosi's failure is astounding--not that nothing got through, but nothing of any significance beyond the newly elected government honeymoon vote on stimulus.

It was funny how Bush was supposedly so stupid, but he managed to get most of his priorities through Congress even with Dem filibusters.

BECAUSE THE DEMS DIDN'T FILIBUSTER AS MUCH AS THE REPUBLICAN DO!

ONCE AGAIN!

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

584 Racer X  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:15:26pm

re: #581 Olsonist

When did the Democrats filibuster Bush? There were cloture voes, but when did the Democrats filibuster?

They must have liked their ideas?

585 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:15:43pm

re: #551 SanFranciscoZionist

I care. I'm pleased to see that he's representing his constituents, and appears to be able to make good decisions and elaborate sensibly on them.

We need more sensible politicians. Though I'd rather see a Repub in Indiana, it is too bad a moderate of the likes of Bayh felt the need to leave office. He risked being booted out, but the Senate was better with people like him in it.

586 palomino  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:15:44pm

re: #462 albusteve

BO is a blubbering boob...we are talking politics here not Times crossword puzzles...what's the point, he doesn't cut it as POTUS

I think you're exaggerating a little...there was a similar growing consensus about JFK, Clinton, even Reagan early in their admins--they all improved. Regardless, it was the Dems' year to win in 2008. So it was really either Obama or Hillary. Would she have been better? I don't know.

587 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:16:37pm

re: #583 jamesfirecat

BECAUSE THE DEMS DIDN'T FILIBUSTER AS MUCH AS THE REPUBLICAN DO!

ONCE AGAIN!

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

There's a brick wall over that way *nods*. You might have better luck there.

588 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:16:39pm

re: #572 McSpiff

I've had way too many discussions with Steve that end in his paranoid rantings for me to sit back and listen to him describe an editor of the Harvard Law Review, Senator and the President of the United States as a 'Boob'. Sorry.

I can understand why you would object to the 'Boob' label, though to be fair most politicians are boobs who have never worked an honest job. Steve on the other hand is good people, as are you, so we all join together and go to Candy Mountain!

Youtube Video
589 Stanghazi  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:16:49pm

re: #561 Stonemason

So, list for me the glaring off the cuff mistakes Mr. Bush has made...

Well, if you ask. The one "off the cuff mistake" that recall vividly is Pres. Bush at a European summit when he massaged Angela Merkel's shoulders, ate with his mouth open, and yelled across the room at Tony Blair.

It's in the past, and not really worth going over again, but you brought it up and that one really sticks in my memory.

590 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:16:49pm

re: #453 jamesfirecat

What things do you think Bush felt passionate about?

Did Bush ever do a Q&A with the Democrats?

re: #529 jamesfirecat

By the way I love your "liberal media, therefore reporters = democratic senators" analogy!

First one says nothing about Senators...

591 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:17:06pm

Why the word "filibuster"?

It sounds like something that would be used to clean the coils under the fridge.

592 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:17:10pm

re: #554 jamesfirecat

LOOK AT THE NUMBERS!

Democrats have only one year filibustered more than the Republicans, and every MAJOR jump to the total number of filibusters took place under Republican control.

In short, look at the numbers.

The republicans can not honestly say that the democrats obstruct more than they do, if they do THEY ARE LIEING!

Numbers, shmumbers. The so the Repubs have doubled the filibuster votes. But the Repubs did not lock out the Dems to the extent being done in this congress, so it seems like a proportionate response to me.

593 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:17:31pm

re: #583 jamesfirecat

BECAUSE THE DEMS DIDN'T FILIBUSTER AS MUCH AS THE REPUBLICAN DO!

ONCE AGAIN!

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

How do you measure "number of filibusters"? Is it when a vote comes before the Senate, and an actual filibuster takes place? Or is it when a phone call happens with the minority leader where he/she says, "we're going to filibuster"? Or is it when the majority leader calls everyone and says, "will you vote to break a filibuster?" You get the point. What exactly does that statistic mean?

594 windsagio  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:17:34pm

Ok as I leave, I just wanted to say this:

The reason tonight was great.


We have alot of smack-talk and throwin' fives, but none of the serious bad feelings that people've had over some of the more serious subjects. Its great that we can diss each other and yell at each other and still have fun, and still keep it under control.

Good times!

595 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:17:37pm

re: #538 cliffster

How long until the standard response to a comment about Obama stops being "Bush this, Bush that"?

Probably about the same time any criticism of the Tea Party folks is not immediately responded to with a link to some vaguely similar outrage committed by leftists in the past forty-five years.

596 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:18:39pm

re: #578 BryanS

No, I said no thanx to being told to f-off. I thought i was being rather polite--unlike the douche who down dinged me for not wanting to f-off.

I down dinged you for "Dems loved the filibuster then." When if you had bothered to read the link I'd given you, you would have seen that Republicans all but always (seven out eight times and every major jump including ones that DOUBLED the number of filibusters) set the bar for how frequently Filibusters are conducted.

597 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:19:06pm

re: #593 cliffster

How do you measure "number of filibusters"? Is it when a vote comes before the Senate, and an actual filibuster takes place? Or is it when a phone call happens with the minority leader where he/she says, "we're going to filibuster"? Or is it when the majority leader calls everyone and says, "will you vote to break a filibuster?" You get the point. What exactly does that statistic mean?

I'm guessing it's when an actual filibuster takes place. Not when a bunch of so-and-so's are talking about it.

598 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:19:07pm

re: #547 Olsonist

Oh, so our backing of Iraq's invasion, that would be our backing of Saddam Hussein, was two years after the release of the hostages. That just makes too much sense.

No actually it doesn't. It just puts the lie to any neoconservative claim to morality or freedom. Not realpolitik. Real stupid.

The Islamic revolution of 1979 toppled an American ally and disrupted our oil supply. The hostages were seized in 1979 and released in 1981. There was zero chance of us tilting Khomeini's way during that time. The possible spread of this revolution was scary bad for the whole region, and our leaders were bound to oppose it with whatever means were to hand. They would have been derelict in their duty had they not done so.


These privileged members of a privileged nation believed that their
pleasant position could be maintained without anything visibly ugly
happening in the world. They were full of aesthetic disdain for their
own defenders, the business-suited hirelings drearily pondering
geopolitics and its bloody necessities down in Washington.
-- John Updike

599 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:19:28pm

re: #597 Vambo

I'm guessing it's when an actual filibuster takes place. Not when a bunch of so-and-so's are talking about it.

You'd be guessing wrong.

600 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:20:00pm

re: #584 Racer X

They must have liked their ideas?

Or maybe they thought agreeing to vote for the idea in exchange for having minimal influence on Bush's ideas was preferable to complete gridlock?

601 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:20:25pm

re: #594 windsagio

Ok as I leave, I just wanted to say this:

The reason tonight was great.

We have alot of smack-talk and throwin' fives, but none of the serious bad feelings that people've had over some of the more serious subjects. Its great that we can diss each other and yell at each other and still have fun, and still keep it under control.

Good times!

Someone is missing to stoke that fire.

602 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:20:36pm

re: #569 jamesfirecat

Our current system subsidizes the poor as well what with how the ER has to treat anyone who comes in regardless of if they can pay for it or not when the bill comes due...

Nothing wrong with care for the poorest--though we have to do it in a better way than using the emergency room. The public option constructed by the house required all employers to pay 75% of all health care costs/premium, or pay an 8% payrol tax. For anyone making less than about $100k, it would be cheaper for employers to dump private health insurance and force people into the "public option".

603 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:20:51pm

re: #591 ggt

Why the word "filibuster"?

It sounds like something that would be used to clean the coils under the fridge.

filibuster (n.)

1580s, flibutor "pirate," probably ultimately from Du. vrijbuiter "freebooter," used of pirates in the West Indies as Sp. filibustero and Fr. flibustier, either or both of which gave the word to Amer.Eng. (see freebooter). Used 1850s and '60s of lawless adventurers from the U.S. who tried to overthrow Central American countries. The legislative sense is first recorded c.1851, probably because obstructionist legislators "pirated" debate. Not technically restricted to U.S. Senate, but that's where the strategy works best. Related: Filibustered; filibustering.

Freebooting!

604 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:21:07pm

re: #599 cliffster

You'd be guessing wrong.

I thought you were asking a question, but it looks like you already know the answer. Care to share your info?

605 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:21:14pm

re: #550 NJDhockeyfan

Again, it's Bush's fault. This mantra is getting very old.

No, it's not Bush's fault that the Iranians are building nukes, and you have not been paying attention to much I say around here if you think I blame Bush reflexively. However, it's not Obama's fault either, and it's a damn dicey situation. This has been going on for a while, and we do not have a real good solution yet.

However, the less rational disadmirers of the President translate Obama's failure to come up with a magic solution to 'not understanding evil', which is arrogant bullshit.

606 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:22:05pm

re: #555 cliffster

I don't see anything in President Obama that's different from Candidate Obama. All generalities, playing on class envy, and canned responses.

Class envy? Yikes.

607 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:22:38pm

re: #604 Vambo

"Filibuster threats" is the term used in the TPM piece, which is open to interpretation.

608 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:22:50pm

re: #606 SanFranciscoZionist

Class envy? Yikes.

He's an arugula-munching elitist who envies the Joe-Sixpacks!!!

609 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:22:52pm

Whew...made it to the bottom.

So, now that the slate is clean for me as far as posting goes, I'm done with the Bush/Obama comparisons.
Mr. Obama is President, if he does well, as he has killing terrorists, I will applaud him.
If he screws up, I will take him to task.

610 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:23:03pm

re: #604 Vambo

I thought you were asking a question, but it looks like you already know the answer. Care to share your info?

Sorry for the shortness of the reply. It was indeed a largely rhetorical question. We really don't have filibusters these days, we have legislation that doesn't come up because of the threat of filibuster and knowledge that it can't be broken. Which is what makes the statistic of "number of filibusters" so mysterious.

611 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:23:14pm

re: #598 The Sanity Inspector

The Islamic revolution of 1979 toppled an American ally and disrupted our oil supply. The hostages were seized in 1979 and released in 1981. There was zero chance of us tilting Khomeini's way during that time. The possible spread of this revolution was scary bad for the whole region, and our leaders were bound to oppose it with whatever means were to hand. They would have been derelict in their duty had they not done so.


These privileged members of a privileged nation believed that their
pleasant position could be maintained without anything visibly ugly
happening in the world. They were full of aesthetic disdain for their
own defenders, the business-suited hirelings drearily pondering
geopolitics and its bloody necessities down in Washington.
-- John Updike

Agreed. Saddam made the decision to invade all by himself. But having done so, he put us in a situation where we could not afford to have him lose. Iran had to be contained and had they won, the spread of M

612 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:23:14pm

Out like a light for the night, sleep tight...

Youtube Video
613 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:23:35pm

re: #567 Bagua

Bush, the limitless source of blame and historical revision. Re-interpret everything to blame Blush and chew away at it relentlessly. Eventually everyone else will tire of the subject and victory is yours! What fun.

That's nonsense. He gets referenced because people like to pretend that all the world's problems got six times worse the second Obama stepped on the stage. They didn't. We've basically got the same problems.

614 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:23:49pm

re: #581 Olsonist

When did the Democrats filibuster Bush? There were cloture voes, but when did the Democrats filibuster?

Judicial nominees--and not all over the most extreme of them. Cloture votes essentially are filibuster. Republs haven't actually "filibustered" anything in this congress, in fact it's been many years since anyone has done that. By Senate custom, most filibusters end on failure to get cloture.

615 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:24:05pm

re: #607 jaunte

"Filibuster threats" is the term used in the TPM piece, which is open to interpretation.

and the graph shows "motions filed".

616 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:24:18pm

re: #602 BryanS

Nothing wrong with care for the poorest--though we have to do it in a better way than using the emergency room. The public option constructed by the house required all employers to pay 75% of all health care costs/premium, or pay an 8% payrol tax. For anyone making less than about $100k, it would be cheaper for employers to dump private health insurance and force people into the "public option".

So add in another rule about how "employers can't dump private health insurance"

Though I suppose that's why I'm a liberal, I believe that you can't solve some problems by governing a bit more precisely than it previously has been.

In essence, the Government that leaves no loophole open governs best....

617 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:24:22pm

re: #605 SanFranciscoZionist

No, it's not Bush's fault that the Iranians are building nukes, and you have not been paying attention to much I say around here if you think I blame Bush reflexively. However, it's not Obama's fault either, and it's a damn dicey situation. This has been going on for a while, and we do not have a real good solution yet.

However, the less rational disadmirers of the President translate Obama's failure to come up with a magic solution to 'not understanding evil', which is arrogant bullshit.

Everyone had been expecting a military strike upon the Iranian nuclear installation in the closing days of the Bush administration. This never occurred. Here's my one word answer that describes the biggest stumbling block to any kind of military action:

Russia.

618 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:24:24pm

re: #600 jamesfirecat

Or maybe they thought agreeing to vote for the idea in exchange for having minimal influence on Bush's ideas was preferable to complete gridlock?

nope, the spending policies and some of the social policies were right up the democrat alley, that is why stuff passed. Think NCLB and Ted Kennedy.

619 Racer X  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:25:07pm

Can we make things worse?

YES WE CAN!

620 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:25:19pm

re: #598 The Sanity Inspector

The Islamic revolution of 1979 toppled an American ally and disrupted our oil supply.

It is after all, their country. We had toppled their democratically elected government in order to install the Shah. And the Iranian revolution didn't disrupt the oil supply. At all.

The hostages were seized in 1979 and released in 1981.

True.

... The possible spread of this revolution was scary bad for the whole region, ...

Iran is majority Shia, the region is notably Sunni.

621 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:25:19pm

re: #603 Gus 802

Freebooting!

better than freebasing?

622 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:25:24pm

re: #613 SanFranciscoZionist

That's nonsense. He gets referenced because people like to pretend that all the world's problems got six times worse the second Obama stepped on the stage. They didn't. We've basically got the same problems.

That's outrageous! Things are no more than three times as bad since Obama ascended, four times max.

623 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:25:41pm
Youtube Video
624 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:26:00pm

re: #621 ggt

better than freebasing?

Hmmm. Maybe the same with regards to life expectancy.

625 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:26:02pm

re: #605 SanFranciscoZionist

No, it's not Bush's fault that the Iranians are building nukes, and you have not been paying attention to much I say around here if you think I blame Bush reflexively. However, it's not Obama's fault either, and it's a damn dicey situation. This has been going on for a while, and we do not have a real good solution yet.

However, the less rational disadmirers of the President translate Obama's failure to come up with a magic solution to 'not understanding evil', which is arrogant bullshit.

Obama's solution was to sit down and talk with them. That is not going to work. Meanwhile the centrifuges continue to spin and the Middle East is getting closer to chaos. I want to see Obama get tough with the Iranians. I won't hold my breath though.

626 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:26:29pm

re: #613 SanFranciscoZionist

That's nonsense. He gets referenced because people like to pretend that all the world's problems got six times worse the second Obama stepped on the stage. They didn't. We've basically got the same problems.

I got excited in 2004 because Bush promised SS reform. After he was elected, along with majorities in the house and senate, I thought, here we go, we're saved! Then came the town halls, just like last year's HCR town halls. And obstructionist democrats, just like this year's obstructionist republicans. I got pissed because I thought Bush et al just rolled over. Such is life.

627 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:26:35pm

re: #583 jamesfirecat

BECAUSE THE DEMS DIDN'T FILIBUSTER AS MUCH AS THE REPUBLICAN DO!

ONCE AGAIN!

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

BECAUSE THE REPUBS DID NOT LOCK OUT THE DEMS LIKE IS HAPPENING TO THE REPUBS.

Allcaps doesn't make it a better argument. But it is true, that the Republicans, and Bush in particular, were willing to reach across the isle and include Dems in the formulation of legislation. Bushes first major initiative was No Child Left Behind--championed by Kennedy, no less until it was politically more expedient to oppose the legislation he helped craft when Bush became evil incarnate.

628 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:26:57pm

re: #618 Stonemason

nope, the spending policies and some of the social policies were right up the democrat alley, that is why stuff passed. Think NCLB and Ted Kennedy.

You mean W found a way to get the democrats vote for the things they liked/supported?

Given the Senate's recent reaction to "paygo" I think Obama may actually have something to learn from Bush!

629 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:27:06pm

re: #608 Vambo

He's an arugula-munching elitist who envies the Joe-Sixpacks!!!

I know she's over, but given that the man ran against a ticket with Sarah Palin on it, I would think he'd be let off on charges of inciting class resentment for at least a couple of years. She's the past, present and future master of simultaneous class envy and arrogance. It's quite a trick.

630 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:28:15pm

re: #616 jamesfirecat

So add in another rule about how "employers can't dump private health insurance"

Though I suppose that's why I'm a liberal, I believe that you can't solve some problems by governing a bit more precisely than it previously has been.

In essence, the Government that leaves no loophole open governs best...

I thought that was the definition of a conservative?

631 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:29:16pm

re: #630 ggt

I thought that was the definition of a conservative?

F*** I meant to say "I believe that you can solve some problems by governing a bit more precisely than it previously has been."

Its getting to be too late at night for me....

632 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:29:51pm

re: #605 SanFranciscoZionist

No, it's not Bush's fault that the Iranians are building nukes, and you have not been paying attention to much I say around here if you think I blame Bush reflexively. [...]

Ha! We disagree. It certainly is Bush's fault for not stopping the Iranians during his terms (with the ultimate blame being the Mullah regime.) Bush had all the knowledge and experience necessary to deal with the threat, and unlike Obama, he had no future elections to consider.

633 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:30:00pm

re: #617 Gus 802

Everyone had been expecting a military strike upon the Iranian nuclear installation in the closing days of the Bush administration. This never occurred. Here's my one word answer that describes the biggest stumbling block to any kind of military action:

Russia.

It's a hell of a thorny issue. Which is why I tend to get tetchy with people who think it's easy.

634 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:30:06pm

re: #623 Spare O'Lake

[Video]

Youtube Video
635 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:30:13pm

re: #625 NJDhockeyfan

Arguably it was Carter/Ford/Nixon's fault. They started the Iranian nuclear program under the Shah, cuz the Shah would last forever.

636 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:30:22pm

re: #596 jamesfirecat

I down dinged you for "Dems loved the filibuster then." When if you had bothered to read the link I'd given you, you would have seen that Republicans all but always (seven out eight times and every major jump including ones that DOUBLED the number of filibusters) set the bar for how frequently Filibusters are conducted.

I did bother to read. Maybe you didn't yet read my response to why the Repubs are filibustering--being locked out of the process.

637 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:30:40pm

re: #631 jamesfirecat

F*** I meant to say "I believe that you can solve some problems by governing a bit more precisely than it previously has been."

Its getting to be too late at night for me...

The more OCD the better?

638 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:30:46pm

re: #631 jamesfirecat

F*** I meant to say "I believe that you can solve some problems by governing a bit more precisely than it previously has been."

Its getting to be too late at night for me...

Before you go, if you wanted to reply to my question about "what constitutes a filibuster" upthread, it was asked in all sincerity.

639 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:30:46pm

re: #630 ggt

I thought that was the definition of a conservative?

That would be a pretty radical conservative, too.

640 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:31:19pm

re: #636 BryanS

I did bother to read. Maybe you didn't yet read my response to why the Repubs are filibustering--being locked out of the process.

They lock themselves out when they vote against their own compromised bills.

641 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:31:51pm

re: #625 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's solution was to sit down and talk with them. That is not going to work. Meanwhile the centrifuges continue to spin and the Middle East is getting closer to chaos. I want to see Obama get tough with the Iranians. I won't hold my breath though.

No, one of Obama's tactics was to offer to sit down and talk with them. That's not the same thing.

642 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:32:28pm

re: #636 BryanS

We won't go to the Health Care Summit because we're locked out of the process.

643 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:32:33pm

re: #600 jamesfirecat

Or maybe they thought agreeing to vote for the idea in exchange for having minimal influence on Bush's ideas was preferable to complete gridlock?

Dems were regularly included in the drafting of legislation. They were more moderate Dems, but they were included in each major piece of legislation. The same could not be said of this congress.

644 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:32:53pm

re: #638 cliffster

Before you go, if you wanted to reply to my question about "what constitutes a filibuster" upthread, it was asked in all sincerity.

I'm curious too, I didn't know that filibusters weren't actually filed anymore. hmm...

645 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:32:53pm

re: #625 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's solution was to sit down and talk with them. That is not going to work. Meanwhile the centrifuges continue to spin and the Middle East is getting closer to chaos. I want to see Obama get tough with the Iranians. I won't hold my breath though.

Here's a list of Bush Administration contacts with Iran:

Bush Administration Contacts with Iran - Direct and Indirect
November 10, 2008

One year sample:

July 24, 2007 — The US Ambassador to Iraq, Ryan Crocker, and his Iranian counterpart Hassan Kazemi Qomi, held a second round of talks in Baghdad.

August 6, 2007 — The US Ambassador to Iraq, Ryan Crocker, and his Iranian counterpart Hassan Kazemi Qomi held a third round of talks in Baghdad.

August 20-21, 2007 — extensive talks in Tehran between Iran and the UN's nuclear agency.

October 7, 2007 — The top US military commander in Iraq, Gen David Petraeus, accused Iran's ambassador, Hassan Kazemi Qomi of belonging to the Quds force, which he accused of "lethal involvement and activities" in Iraq, "providing the weapons, the training, the funding and in some cases the direction for operations" against U.S. and Iraqi forces.

October 16, 2007 — Russian President Vladimir Putin met Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and President Ahmadinejad at a summit meeting of five Caspian Sea nations in Iran.

October 23, 2007 — Solana and the new Iranian nuclear negotiator met in Rome.

November 20, 2007 — The U.S. and Iran agree to fourth round of Crocker/Qomi talks.

November 30, 2007 — Iran's new chief nuclear negotiator Saeed Jalili met with Javier Solana, the European Union's foreign policy chief, in London.

January 11-12, 2008 — ElBaradei visited Iran and met Iran's leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

January 27, 2008 — U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Zalmay Khalilzad attends multilateral meeting with Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki and Mojtaba Samare Hashemi, a top advisor to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Davos, Switzerland. State Department says it was "unauthorized."

May 7, 2008 — Iranian foreign ministry spokesman Mohammad Ali Hosseini said there was no point in having talks with Washington as long as US forces continued attacking Shiite militias in Baghdad and therefore a fourth round of talks between the United States and Iran over the security situation in Iraq is unlikely to go ahead.

June 14, 2008 — Javier Solana, travelled to Iran with representatives from the E3 (France, Germany and the UK) and from China and Russia to present Iran a new offer for negotiations.

July 19, 2008 — Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs William Burns accompanied Solana and representatives of the E3+3 to meet with Iran's chief nuclear negotiator Saeed Jalili in Geneva.

Also:

March 11, 2005 — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice says that the United States will "make an effort to actively support the EU-3's negotiations with the Iranians" and lift a decade-long block on Iran's membership of the World Trade Organization, and end objections to Tehran obtaining parts for commercial planes.

January 12, 2006 — EU3 call off nuclear talks with Iran and say Tehran should be referred to UN Security Council.

May 31, 2006 — In a major policy shift, Secretary Rice says the U.S. is willing to join the multilateral talks with Iran if Tehran verifiably suspends its nuclear enrichment program. The U.S. also gives assent to a package of carrots and sticks Solana will describe to the Iranians.

646 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:32:59pm

re: #631 jamesfirecat

Do you really not see that that leads to complete control of your life by someone else?

647 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:33:08pm

re: #632 Bagua

Ha! We disagree. It certainly is Bush's fault for not stopping the Iranians during his terms (with the ultimate blame being the Mullah regime.) Bush had all the knowledge and experience necessary to deal with the threat, and unlike Obama, he had no future elections to consider.

I do disagree. I don't know if Bush played a perfect hand, but I don't think he was terrible either.

648 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:33:28pm

re: #639 jaunte

That would be a pretty radical conservative, too.

Do radical and conservative go together? :)

Beyond the silly stuff--yes, you are right.

649 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:34:00pm

re: #646 Stonemason

Do you really not see that that leads to complete control of your life by someone else?

Big Brother is watching oh noez!!!1

650 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:34:17pm

re: #635 Olsonist

Arguably it was Carter/Ford/Nixon's fault. They started the Iranian nuclear program under the Shah, cuz the Shah would last forever.

It doesn't matter who's fault it is. Blaming previous presidents doesn't fix the problem. I would like the president to borrow Harry Truman's "The Buck Stops Here" sign and get rid of his "It's Not My Fault" sign.

651 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:34:21pm

re: #645 Gus 802

Yes, but Bush meant it in a more aggressive, less nuanced, way!!

//

652 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:35:05pm

re: #528 BryanS

I guess it is a matter of degree on how much control is needed before it is called socialized. I would call medicare/medicaid government run (socialized) medicine--as I have heard Dems publicly state (the government run part, anyway). Again, setting prices, dictating the product sold is control in my mind. It's only slightly better than the government doing the hiring and administration directly, but not much.

Actually it has to do with who signs your paycheck.

Police and Fire departments are socialized. The stations are government owned buildings and cops and firemen are government employees. In socialized medicine it works the same way. All hospitals and clinics are government owned and not for profit. All health care workers are government employees just like cops and firemen.

Single payer is socialized insurance. Hospitals and Clinics are still privately owned and can be run for profit. Doctors are still independently employed when they want to be. Government just takes the place of the insurance companies and pays all the bills.

What's being proposed is like neither of these schemes.

653 freetoken  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:35:06pm

Since we seem to want to continue arguing over AGW... I think this cartoon from today could find application in several situations.

654 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:35:36pm

re: #646 Stonemason

Do you really not see that that leads to complete control of your life by someone else?


OLD Saying: You can only police the people as much as they want to be policed.

GGT's saying: People do not like to be policed too precisely.

655 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:36:12pm

re: #638 cliffster

Before you go, if you wanted to reply to my question about "what constitutes a filibuster" upthread, it was asked in all sincerity.

Honestly I think the problem is that the filibuster has these days become so ill defined that in point of fact, it's hard to argue what doesn't constitute a filibuster?

There's no penalty for filibustering things since you don't have to talk anymore and its not like "you get 10 filibusters per congressional session, use them wisely" so you know what I don't have a clear definition for you.

But I think that's just a symptom of the bigger underlying problem. Your thoughts?

656 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:36:23pm

re: #616 jamesfirecat

So add in another rule about how "employers can't dump private health insurance"

Though I suppose that's why I'm a liberal, I believe that you can't solve some problems by governing a bit more precisely than it previously has been.

In essence, the Government that leaves no loophole open governs best...

Easy response to that--just dump employees. I can say for a fact, the house bill, if a company I work for had to factor in its costs, would directly translate into a 2-3% layoff as we've calculated if the costs could not be passed on to customers--an in this economy, those costs could not be passed on.

657 jaunte  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:36:35pm

re: #654 ggt

You may be one of those 2 mph over the speed limit outlaws...

658 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:36:37pm

re: #651 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, but Bush meant it in a more aggressive, less nuanced, way!!

//

Yeah, "all options are on the table." All options remain on the table regardless of the rhetoric we hear.

659 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:36:46pm

re: #652 Conservative Moonbat

Actually it has to do with who signs your paycheck.

Police and Fire departments are socialized. The stations are government owned buildings and cops and firemen are government employees. In socialized medicine it works the same way. All hospitals and clinics are government owned and not for profit. All health care workers are government employees just like cops and firemen.

Single payer is socialized insurance. Hospitals and Clinics are still privately owned and can be run for profit. Doctors are still independently employed when they want to be. Government just takes the place of the insurance companies and pays all the bills.

What's being proposed is like neither of these schemes.

Wow. Someone who actually knows about socialism. *upding*

660 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:36:50pm

The computer is way too slow tonite and I can't handle it.

Have a great evening all!

661 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:37:03pm

re: #650 NJDhockeyfan

If you think Iran is a problem, you need to look at Pakistan. They have nukes. Lots of them. Their country is a gnat's breath from being a failed state.

662 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:37:03pm

re: #645 Gus 802

Back to Bush again. Sheesh.

663 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:38:47pm

re: #655 jamesfirecat

Honestly I think the problem is that the filibuster has these days become so ill defined that in point of fact, it's hard to argue what doesn't constitute a filibuster?

There's no penalty for filibustering things since you don't have to talk anymore and its not like "you get 10 filibusters per congressional session, use them wisely" so you know what I don't have a clear definition for you.

But I think that's just a symptom of the bigger underlying problem. Your thoughts?

My thoughts are that it all happens behind the scenes.. the leaders now when they have the numbers and when they don't. But, respectfully, you are citing quite a bit the article that claims the GOP is filibustering twice as much as any senate in history. Considering the source, and the vagueness of the metric, I find it hard to buy...

664 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:38:56pm

re: #661 Olsonist

If you think Iran is a problem, you need to look at Pakistan. They have nukes. Lots of them. Their country is a gnat's breath from being a failed state.

That's a problem too. It doesn't make Iran any less important.

665 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:39:07pm

re: #646 Stonemason

Do you really not see that that leads to complete control of your life by someone else?

I said "some problems" not all problems.

The government can do wholesale things very well, that's why we fight our wars with a federal army rather than state militias.

Likewise I believe our government should be able to provide us with a basic healthcare plan that anyone can buy into. It might not be perfect, but it would be "good enough" to drastically decrease the number of medical bankrupcies in America....

Or at least that's the target goal I want to set for such a project....

666 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:39:17pm

re: #662 NJDhockeyfan

Back to Bush again. Sheesh.

The point is why get worked up about Obama allegedly dragging his feet on Iran when Bush did the same? Bush policies are still relevant and in fact still being applied. So yes, Bush again. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates came from the Bush administration.

667 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:39:38pm

re: #640 Vambo

They lock themselves out when they vote against their own compromised bills.

That has always happened--where amendments pass because they are widely supported by enough members, but the bill is not supported by the drafter of the amendment. That is the legislative process, and not new in this congress.

668 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:40:19pm

re: #658 Gus 802

Yeah, "all options are on the table." All options remain on the table regardless of the rhetoric we hear.

We only see the top bit of the iceberg.

669 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:40:19pm

VMWare Workstation tells me I need to reboot to complete the install. I don't now if it's full of shit or not, but I'm gonna go ahead and reboot anyways.

670 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:40:53pm

re: #661 Olsonist

If you think Iran is a problem, you need to look at Pakistan. They have nukes. Lots of them. Their country is a gnat's breath from being a failed state.

Yeah, but we're not going to take out Pakistan's nukes, so we have to learn to live with them.

671 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:41:24pm

re: #662 NJDhockeyfan

Back to Bush again. Sheesh.

NOTE: when criticizing Obama, we must ignore GW Bush. re: #663 cliffster

My thoughts are that it all happens behind the scenes.. the leaders now when they have the numbers and when they don't. But, respectfully, you are citing quite a bit the article that claims the GOP is filibustering twice as much as any senate in history. Considering the source, and the vagueness of the metric, I find it hard to buy...

well, I'm not sure when all of that started... but even after 2000-2008, the filibuster threats went through the roof in the last year. that's something.

672 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:41:43pm

re: #663 cliffster

My thoughts are that it all happens behind the scenes.. the leaders now when they have the numbers and when they don't. But, respectfully, you are citing quite a bit the article that claims the GOP is filibustering twice as much as any senate in history. Considering the source, and the vagueness of the metric, I find it hard to buy...

Can we agree that maybe we need some filibuster reform in the senate?

How would you feel about bringing it back to the days when people had to talk to maintain a filibuster?

673 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:41:58pm

re: #642 Olsonist

We won't go to the Health Care Summit because we're locked out of the process.

Funny, but possibly true. While preparing for the summit--which the Repubs are attending--the Dems have been leaking their plans to pass their crap sandwich via reconciliation anyway. Kind of feels like being locked out of the process. In the current partisan environment, could you not blame Repubs for thinking they might be getting set up/used for a photo op, and then promptly ignored while the bill gets crammed through as is anyway?

674 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:42:18pm

re: #664 NJDhockeyfan

That's a problem too. It doesn't make Iran any less important.

It makes it A LOT less important. Clear and present danger important. As in, we better have a fucking plan to get those nukes out.

Iran is an annoyance. It's a feel bad for the neocons. But Iran is not a problem. Leave them well enough alone. We should have left Cuba alone as well. We should trade with both. Trade is the most democratizing instrument in our arsenal, by far. It worked with Russia and China, maybe too well with China.

675 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:43:12pm

re: #662 NJDhockeyfan

Back to Bush again. Sheesh.

No. You said that 'Obama's solution was to sit down and talk to them'. That implies that this indicated a change in existing U.S. behavior in the region. The point is not to criticize Bush, the point is to demonstrate that Obama's behavior does not reflect some brand new approach to foreign policy. If you don't like what we're doing, you don't like what we've been doing for a while.

Now, Bagua doesn't like what we've been doing for a while, and that is a clear position.

676 Vambo  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:43:13pm

re: #667 BryanS

That has always happened--where amendments pass because they are widely supported by enough members, but the bill is not supported by the drafter of the amendment. That is the legislative process, and not new in this congress.

You said Republicans are being locked out of the process, now you agree they are choosing not to participate?

677 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:43:53pm

re: #673 BryanS

Funny, but possibly true. While preparing for the summit--which the Repubs are attending--the Dems have been leaking their plans to pass their crap sandwich via reconciliation anyway. Kind of feels like being locked out of the process. In the current partisan environment, could you not blame Repubs for thinking they might be getting set up/used for a photo op, and then promptly ignored while the bill gets crammed through as is anyway?

"They might not take our input so we doubtlessly shouldn't give it to them!"

What are the Republicans a whiny a passive aggressive girlfriend who will only speak up if you promise to do exactly what she says?

678 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:44:08pm

re: #575 BryanS

The level of Pelosi's failure is astounding--not that nothing got through, but nothing of any significance beyond the newly elected government honeymoon vote on stimulus.

It was funny how Bush was supposedly so stupid, but he managed to get most of his priorities through Congress even with Dem filibusters.

There is no filibuster in the house, only the senate.

THere's a ton of legislation that's made it through the house that is waiting on the Senate to pass compainion legislation. The house has passed banking reform, Climate protection, all kinds of shit that it has to wait on the slower acting Senate to act on.

I don't know why I'm still talking to you. You don't know what you're talking about.

679 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:44:14pm

re: #672 jamesfirecat

I think it would be a bad idea, and so does Chris Dodd...

680 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:44:51pm

re: #673 BryanS

Reconciliation is the Dems prerogative. The Reps used; the Dems can use it.

681 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:45:00pm

re: #679 Stonemason

I think it would be a bad idea, and so does Chris Dodd...

The link you posted doesn't work, and why do you feel it would be a bad idea?

682 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:45:46pm

re: #666 Gus 802

The point is why get worked up about Obama allegedly dragging his feet on Iran when Bush did the same? Bush policies are still relevant and in fact still being applied. So yes, Bush again. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates came from the Bush administration.

Iran is about to have a deliverable nuke. Bush is no longer president, really he's not. Let's stop comparing Obama to Bush. Obama is running the country now. He is the Commander in Chief. His job is to keep America safe. What is his solution?

683 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:46:34pm

re: #682 NJDhockeyfan

Iran is about to have a deliverable nuke. Bush is no longer president, really he's not. Let's stop comparing Obama to Bush. Obama is running the country now. He is the Commander in Chief. His job is to keep America safe. What is his solution?

What would be your ideal solution for him to propose?

684 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:47:21pm

re: #581 Olsonist

When did the Democrats filibuster Bush? There were cloture voes, but when did the Democrats filibuster?

Social Security privatization is the only one I can think of.

They actually made a big deal of agreeing not to filibuster judicial appointments.

"upperdown votes, upperdown votes"

685 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:47:23pm

re: #676 Vambo

The Party of No is not saying that No means No. No means not having the opportunity to say no.

686 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:47:32pm

re: #678 Conservative Moonbat

There is no filibuster in the house, only the senate.

THere's a ton of legislation that's made it through the house that is waiting on the Senate to pass compainion legislation. The house has passed banking reform, Climate protection, all kinds of shit that it has to wait on the slower acting Senate to act on.

I don't know why I'm still talking to you. You don't know what you're talking about.

That about describes it. The Senate is correct to oppose it, useless half measures that do nothing to protect the climate.

687 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:47:45pm

re: #652 Conservative Moonbat

Actually it has to do with who signs your paycheck.

Police and Fire departments are socialized. The stations are government owned buildings and cops and firemen are government employees. In socialized medicine it works the same way. All hospitals and clinics are government owned and not for profit. All health care workers are government employees just like cops and firemen.

Single payer is socialized insurance. Hospitals and Clinics are still privately owned and can be run for profit. Doctors are still independently employed when they want to be. Government just takes the place of the insurance companies and pays all the bills.

What's being proposed is like neither of these schemes.

You can envision a process were every detail is dictated down to salary, hiring terms, work conditions, job descriptions, price of goods sold, makeup of the products sold, etc. At some point, you have socialism in-effect . Are we all the way there? No, not yet. But too close for my comfort.

I do not oppose all government regulation, but do oppose government attempts at setting prices and dictating what is sold.

688 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:48:02pm

re: #661 Olsonist

If you think Iran is a problem, you need to look at Pakistan. They have nukes. Lots of them. Their country is a gnat's breath from being a failed state.

And what is your plan for dealing with that situation?

689 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:48:31pm

re: #682 NJDhockeyfan

Iran doesn't have a nuke and isn't close to having. Pakistan has about 40, and their nuts.

690 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:48:34pm

re: #652 Conservative Moonbat

Actually it has to do with who signs your paycheck.

Police and Fire departments are socialized. The stations are government owned buildings and cops and firemen are government employees. In socialized medicine it works the same way. All hospitals and clinics are government owned and not for profit. All health care workers are government employees just like cops and firemen.

Single payer is socialized insurance. Hospitals and Clinics are still privately owned and can be run for profit. Doctors are still independently employed when they want to be. Government just takes the place of the insurance companies and pays all the bills.

What's being proposed is like neither of these schemes.

Ohh, and I do not mind socialized fire protection or police. I think those are things only government should do.

691 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:49:06pm

re: #633 SanFranciscoZionist

It's a hell of a thorny issue. Which is why I tend to get tetchy with people who think it's easy.

Most of the people who think it's an easy thing to do block out the fact that in 1981 the Israelis struck the unfueled Iraqi reactor complex at Osirak. It takes a true sociopath to want the US anywhere a second wartime radiological disaster, no matter who forced who's hand.

692 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:49:08pm

re: #687 BryanS

You can envision a process were every detail is dictated down to salary, hiring terms, work conditions, job descriptions, price of goods sold, makeup of the products sold, etc. At some point, you have socialism in-effect . Are we all the way there? No, not yet. But too close for my comfort.

I do not oppose all government regulation, but do oppose government attempts at setting prices and dictating what is sold.

I disagree with you because I feel the health market is one that has no natural price ceiling.

It is unfair to expect people to say "no that costs too much I would rather die than get that treatment"....

693 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:49:40pm

re: #682 NJDhockeyfan

Iran is about to have a deliverable nuke. Bush is no longer president, really he's not. Let's stop comparing Obama to Bush. Obama is running the country now. He is the Commander in Chief. His job is to keep America safe. What is his solution?

Agreed. It is time for Obama to step up to the plate and make the world a safer place as Bush did during his term. History will judge them both, but in the present we need Obama to stop the Iranian nuclear project.

694 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:49:40pm

re: #682 NJDhockeyfan

Iran is about to have a deliverable nuke. Bush is no longer president, really he's not. Let's stop comparing Obama to Bush. Obama is running the country now. He is the Commander in Chief. His job is to keep America safe. What is his solution?

He's expanding troop presence in Afghanistan, increasing drone strikes, trying terrorists, continuing to keep an eye on the situation in Iran...I don't know if he has a 'solution'. Do you?

695 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:49:52pm

re: #684 Conservative Moonbat

With all of the financial meltdown we've had I can't imagine adding privatized social security to the mix.

696 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:49:53pm

re: #674 Olsonist

It makes it A LOT less important. Clear and present danger important. As in, we better have a fucking plan to get those nukes out.

I saw an interview with a retired CIA guy a few months ago. We do have a plan. He said if it looks like the Paki government is collapsing and the nukes are in jeopardy the US & Israel will send in a special forces group and secure all the nukes.

697 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:50:10pm

re: #682 NJDhockeyfan

Iran is about to have a deliverable nuke. Bush is no longer president, really he's not. Let's stop comparing Obama to Bush. Obama is running the country now. He is the Commander in Chief. His job is to keep America safe. What is his solution?

The solution is a continuation of policy. Right now that includes the heightening of sanctions. Chairman of the Joints Chief of Staff, Admiral Michael Mullen recently stated that, no military strike " will be in and of itself decisive," on the Iranian issue.

698 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:50:21pm

re: #688 Dark_Falcon

Buy them.

699 Girth  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:50:42pm

re: #680 Olsonist

Reconciliation is the Dems prerogative. The Reps used; the Dems can use it.

That's a terrible political move.

I think the Reps will take both houses back if the Dems pass it that way.

700 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:50:44pm

re: #689 Olsonist

Iran doesn't have a nuke and isn't close to having. Pakistan has about 40, and their nuts.

True, but Iran wants to hit us, and Pakistan wants to hit India, and they know India will hit them back.

701 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:50:46pm

re: #672 jamesfirecat

Can we agree that maybe we need some filibuster reform in the senate?

How would you feel about bringing it back to the days when people had to talk to maintain a filibuster?

That would be fun--80 year old politicians droning on about nonsense.

702 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:51:50pm

re: #701 BryanS

That would be fun--80 year old politicians droning on about nonsense.

Hey at least it would make people front and center aware of what was going on in the Senate, and who was responsible for bills not getting passed.

703 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:52:10pm

re: #681 jamesfirecat

because it keeps a simple majority from forcing legislation through. The process was last changed in 1975 when the cloture requirement went from 66 to 60, and at that point the talking forever stopped too (or so it seems, i can't find the proof of that)

Trying the other link again

if that does not work, just head over to huffpo and search for it...(or The Hill.com)

704 freetoken  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:52:45pm

re: #682 NJDhockeyfan

Iran is about to have a deliverable nuke.

Any evidence for this claim?

Note that NK has had reactors for years, have worked on enrichment for years, and has apparently been trying to develop a nuke for years but without any evidence that they have a solidly working design/process.

705 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:53:26pm

re: #593 cliffster

How do you measure "number of filibusters"? Is it when a vote comes before the Senate, and an actual filibuster takes place? Or is it when a phone call happens with the minority leader where he/she says, "we're going to filibuster"? Or is it when the majority leader calls everyone and says, "will you vote to break a filibuster?" You get the point. What exactly does that statistic mean?

I think the minority leader just has to announce an intention to filibuster.

One time Harry Reid tried to make the repubs actually filibuster Repubs spun it in the press as making a bunch of old men stay up past their bedtime. They brought cots into the capital and had them all laying there in suits on the cots. They media spun it as the democrats being the obstructionists, not the Republicans so they haven't tried that again.

706 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:53:55pm

re: #703 Stonemason

because it keeps a simple majority from forcing legislation through. The process was last changed in 1975 when the cloture requirement went from 66 to 60, and at that point the talking forever stopped too (or so it seems, i can't find the proof of that)

Trying the other link again

if that does not work, just head over to huffpo and search for it...(or The Hill.com)

Why wouldn't a talking filibuster keep a simple majority from forcing legislation through?

707 solomonpanting  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:54:03pm

re: #683 jamesfirecat

What would be your ideal solution for him to propose?

Don't worry your pretty head about it. The Israelis might look after the problem.

708 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:54:23pm

re: #676 Vambo

You said Republicans are being locked out of the process, now you agree they are choosing not to participate?

They are being locked out of the process--where did I say they were choosing not to participate. To the contrary, I was countering your point that not voting to pass a bill does not mean you ignore that congresspersons' role in drafting legislation.

Republicans were not allowed to offer amendments. They were not allowed to participate in drafting language, they were locked out and unallowed to even view the legislation until literally a few hours before being forced to vote in it in its exact form. Nothing close to this has been done in the past by a party in power--ever.

709 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:54:32pm

re: #683 jamesfirecat

What would be your ideal solution for him to propose?

I don't know. There is a lot of top secret information we don't know about. I would hope the current administration has enough intelligence gathered that they can stop the mullahs from building their bomb. Ronald Reagan had the stones to stand up to the Soviets. Let's hope Obama has the stones to stand up to Iran.

710 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:54:48pm

re: #707 solomonpanting

Don't worry your pretty head about it. The Israelis might look after the problem.

I bet on Israel making a move by the end of 2011.

711 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:55:03pm

re: #700 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but Iran wants to hit us, and Pakistan wants to hit India, and they know India will hit them back.

hard, and with the wrath of Shiva!

No goddamned way I'd mess with people who can reincarnate.

712 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:55:42pm

re: #709 NJDhockeyfan

I don't know. There is a lot of top secret information we don't know about. I would hope the current administration has enough intelligence gathered that they can stop the mullahs from building their bomb. Ronald Reagan had the stones to stand up to the Soviets. Let's hope Obama has the stones to stand up to Iran.

That's the key issue. There's a lot going on that likely no one on this board knows about, and those who know aren't talking about it.

713 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:56:09pm

re: #711 goddamnedfrank

hard, and with the wrath of Shiva!

No goddamned way I'd mess with people who can reincarnate.

Shiva, the deity of choice for when you need to bitch slap someone half a dozen times in one go....

714 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:56:13pm

re: #677 jamesfirecat

"They might not take our input so we doubtlessly shouldn't give it to them!"

What are the Republicans a whiny a passive aggressive girlfriend who will only speak up if you promise to do exactly what she says?

The Dems refused to even accept any feedback. Congressmen Ryan had to launch a web site to get his legislative ideas listened to, because even though he had substantive ideas to contribute, he was not allowed to participate in any way.

715 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:56:37pm

re: #711 goddamnedfrank

I think I meant Kali.

/beer.

716 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:57:27pm

re: #700 SanFranciscoZionist

Iran doesn't want to hit us. Ajad is nuts and the mullahs are circling the wagons. But no, they don't want to hit us. It would be suicidal.

When was the last time Iran attacked anyone? Iraq attacked them and they were supposed to win in a cakewalk but Iran fought them to a bloody standstill.

We have a terrible history with that country, which is a shame. I've said it before. Lose Ajad and the mullahs and you've got Turkey.

717 Stanghazi  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:57:32pm

OT the Dutch guy in Aruba confessed to dumping Natalie Hollaway. I'm on new iPhone don't know how to link

718 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:57:36pm

re: #678 Conservative Moonbat

There is no filibuster in the house, only the senate.

THere's a ton of legislation that's made it through the house that is waiting on the Senate to pass compainion legislation. The house has passed banking reform, Climate protection, all kinds of shit that it has to wait on the slower acting Senate to act on.

I don't know why I'm still talking to you. You don't know what you're talking about.

Really? Where did I say there ever was a filibuster in the House? Why are you being intentionally obtuse?

719 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:58:04pm

re: #714 BryanS

The Dems refused to even accept any feedback. Congressmen Ryan had to launch a web site to get his legislative ideas listened to, because even though he had substantive ideas to contribute, he was not allowed to participate in any way.

Well the Republicans now doubtlessly have their form what with the live televised talk on CSPAN. They can either show up and make their arguments to show they have something to contribute, or they can wuss out and hide for fear they'd end up looking like fools for making those arguments.

720 Stanghazi  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:58:22pm

[Link: mobile.twitter.com...]

721 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:58:24pm

re: #715 goddamnedfrank

I think I meant Kali.

/beer.

Easy on the beer, not like you to slip up on something factual.

722 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:59:16pm

re: #698 Olsonist

Buy them.

With what, Monopoly Money? The price they'd demand for nukes would be more than we can afford. We're broke, and can't afford to simply throw money around.

723 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 9:59:41pm

re: #680 Olsonist

Reconciliation is the Dems prerogative. The Reps used; the Dems can use it.

Yes, the Repubs used it to enact spending bills. Now it can be argued health care reform is a spending bill, but most of the bill is about policy and not specifically spending. Reconciliation--a.k.a. the Byrd rule--was a narrowly crafted rule that only allowed voted on setting levels of spending so that budgets could be passed in a timely fashion when other political issues are slowing down the process of the Senate.

724 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:00:19pm

re: #722 Dark_Falcon

With what, Monopoly Money? The price they'd demand for nukes would be more than we can afford. We're broke, and can't afford to simply throw money around.

/Hmmm... maybe we should be looking for someone who would be willing to buy our nukes instead!

725 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:00:33pm

re: #711 goddamnedfrank

hard, and with the wrath of Shiva!

No goddamned way I'd mess with people who can reincarnate.

Goddamnedfrank, prepare to meet Kali. In Hell!

/Indiana Jones

726 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:00:36pm

re: #706 jamesfirecat

I'm sorry, when I was answering the first question, about simple reform, I missed your question about going back to talking. I would have to research that a little more, but my memory tells me that once the talking stops, a cloture vote is not needed anymore. What happened in 1975 is that the cloture number was traded for the ability to threaten the filibuster based on the smaller cloture vote.

The talking filibuster is the same as what we have now, it would continue to do exactly what the current system does, except C-span would have more live coverage. It does not have to be one Senator talking, it can be a group.

727 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:01:48pm

Later lizards. It's way past my bedtime. Thanks for the spirited debating!

728 srb1976  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:02:22pm

re: #725 Dark_Falcon

Goddamnedfrank, prepare to meet Kali. In Hell!

/Indiana Jones

I haven't been paying much attention to the conversation but this gets an upding just for Indiana Jones!

729 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:02:49pm

re: #726 Stonemason

I'm sorry, when I was answering the first question, about simple reform, I missed your question about going back to talking. I would have to research that a little more, but my memory tells me that once the talking stops, a cloture vote is not needed anymore. What happened in 1975 is that the cloture number was traded for the ability to threaten the filibuster based on the smaller cloture vote.

The talking filibuster is the same as what we have now, it would continue to do exactly what the current system does, except C-span would have more live coverage. It does not have to be one Senator talking, it can be a group.

True, but I think that if we did talking filibusters then the issue of who was impeding simple majority rule, would be quite clear to the American people rather than being all smoke and mirrors.

I think having talking filibusters again would be a blow for transparency.

730 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:03:30pm

re: #722 Dark_Falcon

With cash and it doesn't take much. We've done this before when the Soviet Union fell apart. Works pretty well.

731 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:03:57pm

Seriously though: Shiva the Destroyer is one of the manifestations. And as the 'supreme god' would indeed represent the ultimate wrath of India.

732 solomonpanting  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:04:33pm

re: #716 Olsonist

When was the last time Iran attacked anyone?

They merely train, fund and supply Hamas, Hezbollah, Iraq insurgents, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Taliban...........
Otherwise, no one.

733 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:04:36pm

RT @shitmydadsays "A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed."

734 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:05:10pm

Best headline of the day:

[Link: www.nbcchicago.com...]

Nursing Home Residents Form Biker Gang

Beware of the knitting needles!

735 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:05:31pm

re: #692 jamesfirecat

I disagree with you because I feel the health market is one that has no natural price ceiling.

It is unfair to expect people to say "no that costs too much I would rather die than get that treatment"...

Catastrophic insurance with a high deductible would cost about $60 per individual and $300 per family in my state. If everything in between disaster and regular care were paid for out of pocket, the market would work and bring down price.

I've thought about the same problem you outline--and the unlimited price thing is the biggest problem. But insuring for the very costly things that can go wrong is actually more affordable than people think. The problem is we pay for "first dollar care". Anything that is paid for out of pocket in the health industry has gone down in price (corrective eye surgery, cosmetic procedures).

I don't know about you, but I never pay for comprehensive car insurance. I save money by taking care of my car myself, and not asking my insurance company to take care of it for me.

736 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:05:50pm

re: #733 cliffster

RT @shitmydadsays "A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed."

What if he's a single senator who gets robbed by a hooker?

737 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:06:24pm

re: #702 jamesfirecat

Hey at least it would make people front and center aware of what was going on in the Senate, and who was responsible for bills not getting passed.

There had to be something we agreed on tonight :)

738 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:06:40pm

re: #730 Olsonist

With cash and it doesn't take much. We've done this before when the Soviet Union fell apart. Works pretty well.

Pakistan won't sell them. The military wants the nukes in case the balloon goes up against India. Moreover, the peace agreement needed to neutralize the tension is unlikely, since the military and ISI want the tension to justify their spending.

739 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:06:56pm

re: #736 jamesfirecat

What if he's a single senator who gets robbed by a hooker?

dude, Justin doesn't get all political and shit

740 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:07:14pm

re: #729 jamesfirecat

But I don't see why. The phrases 'the party of no', and 'obstructionist' being bandied about by not only President Obama but also those in the press that carry his water surely are enough to know who is to blame for everything that is going on? Heck, with what has been said here tonight, it seems that the press has done a fine job of making it seem as if the Democrats have almost never filibustered and for sure never did between 1996 and 2006.

741 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:07:27pm

re: #617 Gus 802

Everyone had been expecting a military strike upon the Iranian nuclear installation in the closing days of the Bush administration. This never occurred. Here's my one word answer that describes the biggest stumbling block to any kind of military action:

Russia.

Well, Russia is supplying gas and oil to much of Europe, but the thought that a strike by the US against Natanz would result in the Russians from providing carbon supplies to Europe is....odd.

They need the currency. Their economy has become a petrocentric.

742 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:08:07pm

re: #732 solomonpanting

They merely train, fund and supply Hamas, Hezbollah, Iraq insurgents, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Taliban...
Otherwise, no one.

Actually, Iran was an ally fighting against the Taliban after 9/11, until the Axis of Evil speech, that is. Remember, Afghanistan is a border country and Iran has had to deal with the Afghanistan problem for a couple of decades and it's getting a little old.

743 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:08:10pm

re: #736 jamesfirecat

What if he's a single senator who gets robbed by a hooker?

Then you Epic Failed.

744 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:08:17pm

re: #715 goddamnedfrank

I think I meant Kali.

/beer.

They both work. Shiva is the Destroyer.

745 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:08:17pm

re: #737 BryanS

There had to be something we agreed on tonight :)

Yeah like I said I find that "go back to the talking filibuster" seems to be generally an idea that just about everyone can agree on, because our current version just filibuster seem too tempting a tool not to use out of spite since there's no penalty for using it...

I mean when Strom Thurmond spent an entire DAY giving a speech about why the civil rights act wouldn't pass, you had to at least admire the determination he put into the effort.....

746 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:08:29pm

re: #716 Olsonist

Iran doesn't want to hit us. Ajad is nuts and the mullahs are circling the wagons. But no, they don't want to hit us. It would be suicidal.

When was the last time Iran attacked anyone? Iraq attacked them and they were supposed to win in a cakewalk but Iran fought them to a bloody standstill.

We have a terrible history with that country, which is a shame. I've said it before. Lose Ajad and the mullahs and you've got Turkey.


Pretty close to the truth there. It really is a shame. Here's hoping the green movement has staying power.

747 srb1976  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:08:42pm

Completely off topic and self promoting.....it is now officially my birthday! Yay

748 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:08:56pm

re: #743 Dark_Falcon

Then you Epic Failed.

Worse, you get to go and stand behind your child at a press conference while you wear pearls and a pastel twin set.

749 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:09:00pm

re: #716 Olsonist

Iran doesn't want to hit us. Ajad is nuts and the mullahs are circling the wagons. But no, they don't want to hit us. It would be suicidal.

When was the last time Iran attacked anyone? Iraq attacked them and they were supposed to win in a cakewalk but Iran fought them to a bloody standstill.

We have a terrible history with that country, which is a shame. I've said it before. Lose Ajad and the mullahs and you've got Turkey.

OK, let me adjust that, since I tend to be of your mind on that. Iran wants to screw with us.

750 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:09:42pm

re: #741 austin_blue

Well, Russia is supplying gas and oil to much of Europe, but the thought that a strike by the US against Natanz would result in the Russians from providing carbon supplies to Europe is...odd.

They need the currency. Their economy has become a petrocentric.

One could argue it would be a windfall for the Russians as any interruption of Iranian or other Persian Gulf supplies would cause the Oil Price to rise,

751 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:10:05pm

re: #719 jamesfirecat

Well the Republicans now doubtlessly have their form what with the live televised talk on CSPAN. They can either show up and make their arguments to show they have something to contribute, or they can wuss out and hide for fear they'd end up looking like fools for making those arguments.

There are some good ideas--like allowing sale of insurance products across state lines. That was an idea pushed by Repubs early on and should have been accepted by Dems.

752 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:10:05pm

re: #740 Stonemason

But I don't see why. The phrases 'the party of no', and 'obstructionist' being bandied about by not only President Obama but also those in the press that carry his water surely are enough to know who is to blame for everything that is going on? Heck, with what has been said here tonight, it seems that the press has done a fine job of making it seem as if the Democrats have almost never filibustered and for sure never did between 1996 and 2006.

I believe that we should bring back the talking filibuster because once we've got it back, then there won't be any of these "phantom filibusters" where bringing up the idea is enough to get it dropped unless there are 60 votes for cloture.

If you're going to mess with majority rule you should have to pay some kind of price for it, even if its just standing up on the floor of the senate and reading the phone book....

753 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:10:12pm

re: #736 jamesfirecat

What if he's a single senator who gets robbed by a hooker?

You've really failed.

754 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:10:20pm

re: #744 SanFranciscoZionist

They both work. Shiva is the Destroyer.

Beat cha to it.

755 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:10:28pm

re: #741 austin_blue

Well, Russia is supplying gas and oil to much of Europe, but the thought that a strike by the US against Natanz would result in the Russians from providing carbon supplies to Europe is...odd.

They need the currency. Their economy has become a petrocentric.

The problem is that short interruptions of the gas are a weapon Russia has been using to coerce Europe. The Russians could use the threat of such disruptions to force Europe to oppose actions they do not approve of.

756 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:10:36pm

And with that moderately incoherent post, I am out of here!

Good night all. Sweet dreams!

757 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:10:39pm

re: #738 Dark_Falcon

Let the pros handle this. It worked pretty well last time. Pakistan won't sell them but colonels will sell them and for less than you would expect.

758 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:10:43pm

re: #694 SanFranciscoZionist

He's expanding troop presence in Afghanistan, increasing drone strikes, trying terrorists, continuing to keep an eye on the situation in Iran...I don't know if he has a 'solution'. Do you?

I do. Hire Israel to do the dirty work. It'll be a win win, esp for Israel.

759 Gus  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:11:25pm

re: #741 austin_blue

Well, Russia is supplying gas and oil to much of Europe, but the thought that a strike by the US against Natanz would result in the Russians from providing carbon supplies to Europe is...odd.

They need the currency. Their economy has become a petrocentric.

It's that they're trading partners and typically speak out against sanctions.

760 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:11:54pm

re: #748 EmmmieG

Worse, you get to go and stand behind your child at a press conference while you wear pearls and a pastel twin set.

My mother and I were discussing the scandal about the president of South Africa having a child out of wedlock. We were wondering, since he has three wives and a fiance, do they ALL go to the press conference and stand holding his hand? How does this work?

761 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:12:50pm

re: #742 Olsonist

Actually, Iran was an ally fighting against the Taliban after 9/11, until the Axis of Evil speech, that is. Remember, Afghanistan is a border country and Iran has had to deal with the Afghanistan problem for a couple of decades and it's getting a little old.


Iran was an ally? I really need some of what you're smoking.

762 freetoken  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:12:53pm

re: #747 srb1976

Completely off topic and self promoting...it is now officially my birthday! Yay

MP3 Audio
763 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:13:03pm

re: #757 Olsonist

Let the pros handle this. It worked pretty well last time. Pakistan won't sell them but colonels will sell them and for less than you would expect.

And if we got caught buying those nukes, then they'd cut our supply route to Afghanistan in a heartbeat. The risks are too great.

764 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:13:38pm

re: #687 BryanS

You can envision a process were every detail is dictated down to salary, hiring terms, work conditions, job descriptions, price of goods sold, makeup of the products sold, etc. At some point, you have socialism in-effect . Are we all the way there? No, not yet. But too close for my comfort.

I do not oppose all government regulation, but do oppose government attempts at setting prices and dictating what is sold.

Nobody other than science fiction authors are proposing what you're afraid of right now.

765 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:13:43pm

re: #752 jamesfirecat

Okay, that is fine. Do we get back to needing 66 votes to stop the reading of the phone book?

766 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:13:45pm

re: #751 BryanS

There are some good ideas--like allowing sale of insurance products across state lines. That was an idea pushed by Repubs early on and should have been accepted by Dems.

The problem with selling insurance across state lines is that it leads to the following situation...

Instead of genuine competition you get a race to the bottom.

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

767 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:13:54pm

re: #760 SanFranciscoZionist

My mother and I were discussing the scandal about the president of South Africa having a child out of wedlock. We were wondering, since he has three wives and a fiance, do they ALL go to the press conference and stand holding his hand? How does this work?

Wouldn't they be cute? Rainbow-ordered twins sets.

How do you have a child out of wedlock if you are an avowed polygamist? Can't you just marry the girl?

768 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:14:05pm

re: #762 freetoken

Good grief, another one. How old now?

769 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:14:23pm

re: #749 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, let me adjust that, since I tend to be of your mind on that. Iran wants to screw with us.

That is sooo true. Just like with Cuba. But someone has to be the adult. You know, being a superpower and all, we should be worrying about bigger problems.

Like China.

770 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:15:08pm

re: #765 Stonemason

Okay, that is fine. Do we get back to needing 66 votes to stop the reading of the phone book?

If that's what you want to accept talking filibuster, sure.

771 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:15:09pm

OT: ACORN by another name?

772 freetoken  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:15:29pm

re: #768 Bagua

It's srb1976's b'day... I'd guess 34 years.

773 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:15:29pm

re: #745 jamesfirecat

Yeah like I said I find that "go back to the talking filibuster" seems to be generally an idea that just about everyone can agree on, because our current version just filibuster seem too tempting a tool not to use out of spite since there's no penalty for using it...

I mean when Strom Thurmond spent an entire DAY giving a speech about why the civil rights act wouldn't pass, you had to at least admire the determination he put into the effort...

Heh, but I also think we can agree ol' Strom isn't around anymore.

The filibuster, though, is not really a bad thing. It prevents wild see-saws in policies. Imagine what would have happened under the Bush presidency--we would have had mandatory daily prayers, privatized social security, privatized medicare, abolishment of the EPA, etc. Then the Dems would have voted everything back to where it was and then some.

774 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:15:38pm

I'm listening to the Alan Colmes show. He's about to have Max Blumenthal on, regarding Max's report on CPAC.

775 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:16:24pm

re: #762 freetoken

Born Under a Bad Sign

MP3 Audio

- Jimi
776 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:16:30pm

re: #770 jamesfirecat

Can we sign a T.A. on that one?

::chuckles:: in the throes of relatively tough contract negotiations...

777 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:17:22pm

re: #767 EmmmieG

Wouldn't they be cute? Rainbow-ordered twins sets.

How do you have a child out of wedlock if you are an avowed polygamist? Can't you just marry the girl?

It's not totally clear to me. She's not a young girl, she's in her late thirties, and apparently he's offered restitution to her family. Maybe she doesn't want to marry him. I don't really understand Zulu culture well enough to get a grip on what the scandalous part is. Anyway, tongues are a-wagging over it.

778 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:17:40pm

re: #776 Stonemason

Can we sign a T.A. on that one?

::chuckles:: in the throes of relatively tough contract negotiations...

T.A.?

779 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:17:43pm

re: #750 Bagua

One could argue it would be a windfall for the Russians as any interruption of Iranian or other Persian Gulf supplies would cause the Oil Price to rise,

Ummm...no. Putting a 25 kt warhead with a penetrator head would dig out Natanz and not affect Iranian oil production in any way, shape or form. It's a *big* country and Natanz is really remote.

780 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:17:43pm

Here's a conservative critique of Glen Beck. It's worth a read.

781 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:18:03pm

re: #772 freetoken

It's srb1976's b'day... I'd guess 34 years.

Wow did I misread that post.

Happy Birthday srb1976, that song was for you.

782 srb1976  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:18:19pm

re: #772 freetoken

It's srb1976's b'day... I'd guess 34 years.

Nice guess! = )

783 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:18:22pm

re: #778 jamesfirecat

tentative agreement

784 Olsonist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:18:23pm

re: #763 Dark_Falcon

And if we got caught buying those nukes, then they'd cut our supply route to Afghanistan in a heartbeat. The risks are too great.

And sending in Special Forces to 'secure' them is a guaranteed lock. Again, this is something for the pros. Not easy, delicate but it worked.

After the USSR fell, there was nuclear material all over the Eastern Bloc. And the US was tracking and buying it and retrieving it. Quietly.

[Valerie Plame was good at this stuff.]

785 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:19:05pm

re: #773 BryanS

Heh, but I also think we can agree ol' Strom isn't around anymore.

The filibuster, though, is not really a bad thing. It prevents wild see-saws in policies. Imagine what would have happened under the Bush presidency--we would have had mandatory daily prayers, privatized social security, privatized medicare, abolishment of the EPA, etc. Then the Dems would have voted everything back to where it was and then some.

True enough I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that overly rampant abuse of it is. I don't think that it should be considered business as usual to make everything that happens in the senate need 60 votes to go forward, if the other side feels that majority rule isn't an acceptable outcome in the situation, they should be more than willing to stand up and scream about why that is at the top of their lungs on live television...

786 Bagua  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:20:29pm

re: #779 austin_blue

Ummm...no. Putting a 25 kt warhead with a penetrator head would dig out Natanz and not affect Iranian oil production in any way, shape or form. It's a *big* country and Natanz is really remote.

Good point, I'm assuming some interruption of supply on a long enough term to pay off for the Russians. Should the Iranians not escalate or retaliate, there would be no need for a disruption in supply.

787 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:20:37pm

re: #783 Stonemason

tentative agreement

Ahh I only knew that as "teachers aid" and very well then, 67 votes to break and a talking filibuster.

I personally hope that in theory that people would get tired of listening to their own side read phone books or whatever that they'd be more willing to vote for breaking the filibuster after a month or two of "A Arthur Airenson...." though of course the only way to find out would be to try....

788 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:21:25pm

re: #784 Olsonist

And sending in Special Forces to 'secure' them is a guaranteed lock. Again, this is something for the pros. Not easy, delicate but it worked.

After the USSR fell, there was nuclear material all over the Eastern Bloc. And the US was tracking and buying it and retrieving it. Quietly.

[Valerie Plame was good at this stuff.]

I don't agree with your idea, but it is a thoughtful plan that shows real thinking and informativeness. But I'm too weary to continue on. Goodnight, all.

789 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:22:15pm

re: #787 jamesfirecat

and, while the talking was going on the senate would be virtually shut down, no legislation at all. (that is the draw back, to some)

790 Stonemason  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:22:30pm

and with that, off to bed

791 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:23:52pm

re: #766 jamesfirecat

The problem with selling insurance across state lines is that it leads to the following situation...

Instead of genuine competition you get a race to the bottom.

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

Former Dem governor of Pennsylvania, and former DNC chair, Rendell would disagree with you and Mr Klein. In fact, he was recently on one of the talking head shows touting precisely that idea. The Dems are in power--they could easily achieve this with the right policies. Mr Rendell specifically cited other precedents where a national regulatory regime is put in place where companies conforming to those requirements could sell interstate.

Interstate commerce is one area the federal level is SUPPOSED to regulate. A side benefit would be that the monopoly regulation exemptions insurance companies get now could be done away with.

792 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:24:56pm

re: #791 BryanS

Former Dem governor of Pennsylvania, and former DNC chair, Rendell would disagree with you and Mr Klein. In fact, he was recently on one of the talking head shows touting precisely that idea. The Dems are in power--they could easily achieve this with the right policies. Mr Rendell specifically cited other precedents where a national regulatory regime is put in place where companies conforming to those requirements could sell interstate.

Interstate commerce is one area the federal level is SUPPOSED to regulate. A side benefit would be that the monopoly regulation exemptions insurance companies get now could be done away with.

So in short, selling across state lines can work, but only if we regulate it.

Reasonable enough...

793 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:27:33pm

re: #785 jamesfirecat

True enough I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that overly rampant abuse of it is. I don't think that it should be considered business as usual to make everything that happens in the senate need 60 votes to go forward, if the other side feels that majority rule isn't an acceptable outcome in the situation, they should be more than willing to stand up and scream about why that is at the top of their lungs on live television...

Non-controversial things, mundane legislation, and pork regularly get through without 60 votes. But agreed, whatever side employs the filibuster should be forced to stand and talk. That could happen now--it's just that cusom after cloture failure it to table the motion for reconsideration...meaning it's tabled in the circular file to never come up again.

794 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:30:05pm

It's a conspiracy!

Youtube Video
795 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:30:32pm

After Max's encounter with Breitbart, he was accosted by another guy by the name of O'Keefe (sp?) and after that, security apparently told him that he should leave for his own personal safety.

796 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:31:14pm

re: #792 jamesfirecat

So in short, selling across state lines can work, but only if we regulate it.

Reasonable enough...

I know...but alas it was "too extreme" for Dems to consider the idea and work with Repubs to enact it. If the Dems would have done more of that, they could have peeled of at least Snowe and Collins, possibly a few others.

Their large majorities, however, emboldened the far left in the House to pass a bill that could never pass in the Senate--even a filibuster proof one. Clinton was pretty good with a Republican house/senate. I think Obama could be a pragmatic, if more left leaning, president as well.

797 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:34:52pm

re: #796 BryanS

I know...but alas it was "too extreme" for Dems to consider the idea and work with Repubs to enact it. If the Dems would have done more of that, they could have peeled of at least Snowe and Collins, possibly a few others.

Their large majorities, however, emboldened the far left in the House to pass a bill that could never pass in the Senate--even a filibuster proof one. Clinton was pretty good with a Republican house/senate. I think Obama could be a pragmatic, if more left leaning, president as well.

For better or worse Obama didn't really hand down a plan for Healthcare reform.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Clinton do that and he end up getting skewered for trying to tell the congress what to vote on?

Meanwhile Obama just tell his congress he wants them to whip up some healthcare reform, and what comes out of it is too liberal to get passed in the senate because he didn't provide them with directions of what was the least he would settle for....

Damned if you damned if you don't it seems like....

798 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:36:45pm

re: #797 jamesfirecat

For better or worse Obama didn't really hand down a plan for Healthcare reform.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Clinton do that and he end up getting skewered for trying to tell the congress what to vote on?

Meanwhile Obama just tell his congress he wants them to whip up some healthcare reform, and what comes out of it is too liberal to get passed in the senate because he didn't provide them with directions of what was the least he would settle for...

Damned if you damned if you don't it seems like...

Well, I think Obama overlearned the lessons from Clinton's whitehouse.

What do you think about the rather odious provisions where individuals are compelled to buy an insurance product ? Not sure whether that passes constitutional muster.

799 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:38:04pm

re: #798 BryanS

Well, I think Obama overlearned the lessons from Clinton's whitehouse.

What do you think about the rather odious provisions where individuals are compelled to buy an insurance product ? Not sure whether that passes constitutional muster.

It would have worked if only it had been coupled with a public option provided by the government because then it could have been positioned in the same light as a tax.

You need auto insurance if you have a car, you need health insurance if you have a body.

800 cliffster  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:38:09pm

re: #798 BryanS

What do you think about the rather odious provisions where individuals are compelled to buy an insurance product ? Not sure whether that passes constitutional muster.

I'm sure whether it does or doesn't...

801 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:40:05pm

Max just identified the particpants at CPAC as part of a greater white identity movement.

802 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:40:47pm

re: #799 jamesfirecat

It would have worked if only it had been coupled with a public option provided by the government because then it could have been positioned in the same light as a tax.

You need auto insurance if you have a car, you need health insurance if you have a body.

It really made the Senate bill no loner make sense--from left or right perspectives.

I wouldn't mind the idea of requiring employers to make health insurance opt-out for their employees. Wouldn't 100% address the issue, but might get the lazy signed up.

803 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:43:07pm

re: #800 cliffster

I'm sure whether it does or doesn't...

let me guess--it doesn't.

jamesfirecat -- driving is a privilege, living is a right. Don't think the two have the same standing in the constitution.

804 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:43:22pm

re: #802 BryanS

It really made the Senate bill no loner make sense--from left or right perspectives.

I wouldn't mind the idea of requiring employers to make health insurance opt-out for their employees. Wouldn't 100% address the issue, but might get the lazy signed up.

The general idea as I understand it is that people who are for the most part healthy won't by nature by likely to buy insurance, so they don't have any when things go wrong for them. Likewise the people who do want to buy insurance as those who often already have pre-existing conditions, or are likely to develop problems and the company finds itself unlikely to make a profit off of insuring them.

The idea of making sure everyone has insurance by forcing them to by health insurance is sort of necessary to make the insurance industry properly ballance itself out.

Of course there are numerous ways around this.

Single payer comes to mind, as that really could be framed as a tax, you pay a certain tax out of every pay check you get and then whenever you've got a problem its taken care of with the government picking up the bill....

805 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:43:34pm

re: #804 jamesfirecat

The general idea as I understand it is that people who are for the most part healthy won't by nature by likely to buy insurance, so they don't have any when things go wrong for them. Likewise the people who do want to buy insurance as those who often already have pre-existing conditions, or are likely to develop problems and the company finds itself unlikely to make a profit off of insuring them.

The idea of making sure everyone has insurance by forcing them to by health insurance is sort of necessary to make the insurance industry properly ballance itself out.

Of course there are numerous ways around this.

Single payer comes to mind, as that really could be framed as a tax, you pay a certain tax out of every pay check you get and then whenever you've got a problem its taken care of with the government picking up the bill...

And now I need to get to sleep...

806 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:44:49pm

re: #801 eclectic infidel

Max just identified the particpants at CPAC as part of a greater white identity movement.

Max?

807 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:49:35pm

re: #804 jamesfirecat

The general idea as I understand it is that people who are for the most part healthy won't by nature by likely to buy insurance, so they don't have any when things go wrong for them. Likewise the people who do want to buy insurance as those who often already have pre-existing conditions, or are likely to develop problems and the company finds itself unlikely to make a profit off of insuring them.

The idea of making sure everyone has insurance by forcing them to by health insurance is sort of necessary to make the insurance industry properly ballance itself out.

Of course there are numerous ways around this.

Single payer comes to mind, as that really could be framed as a tax, you pay a certain tax out of every pay check you get and then whenever you've got a problem its taken care of with the government picking up the bill...

Single payer would probably be more sound from a constitutional standpoint.

But I think the real problem is as you state the unlimited costs of health care. There is nothing driving costs down--third party payer drives costs up as the consumer is not shopping for the product they receive. More adoption of HSAs would help the market restore cost controls.

808 BryanS  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:49:53pm

re: #805 jamesfirecat

Night.

809 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 10:52:27pm

re: #257 jaunte

I don't have a problem with the government regulating what private companies can make, who they are required to cover, and how quickly they can raise rates, but those rules should be related to the real costs of medical services. I don't think the single payer public corporation as a competitor to the private companies is the best option.

The idea that you can ban sharp price increases is whacked. When the law mandates guaranteed issue, regardless of preexisting conditions, what happens is that healthy people are rational players when they decide not to buy health insurance just yet. That leaves the pool of people wanting to buy health insurance older and sicker.

Costs to cover their claims soar. Premiums tank. The company must either raise rates sharply or go bankrupt paying claims that are out of all proportion to the slender stream of premiums based on the old assumption that the pool of insured includes mostly healthy people.

The law smartly steps in and mandates bankruptcy for the insurance company by forbidding the rate increase. Then, when nobody can get health insurance at any price, they say See, private health insurance Doesn't Work.

No, it doesn't work if you kick the legs out from under it. The legs are that healthy people buy health insurance against the possibility that later they may be sick. They buy it because they know that if they don't buy now, when they do get sick it'll be too late.

810 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 11:03:49pm

re: #806 SanFranciscoZionist

Max?

Blumenthal.

I've been making posts on this thread that Max Blumenthal ( i think he's an uber twit when he discusses Israel btw ) is on the Alan Colmes show talking about his experience at CPAC.

811 Cheechako  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 11:07:50pm

re: #809 lostlakehiker

The idea that you can ban sharp price increases is whacked. When the law mandates guaranteed issue, regardless of preexisting conditions, what happens is that healthy people are rational players when they decide not to buy health insurance just yet. That leaves the pool of people wanting to buy health insurance older and sicker.

Costs to cover their claims soar. Premiums tank. The company must either raise rates sharply or go bankrupt paying claims that are out of all proportion to the slender stream of premiums based on the old assumption that the pool of insured includes mostly healthy people.

The law smartly steps in and mandates bankruptcy for the insurance company by forbidding the rate increase. Then, when nobody can get health insurance at any price, they say See, private health insurance Doesn't Work.

No, it doesn't work if you kick the legs out from under it. The legs are that healthy people buy health insurance against the possibility that later they may be sick. They buy it because they know that if they don't buy now, when they do get sick it'll be too late.


I agree with you. If insurance companies were forced to cover pre-existing conditions then it makes economic sense for everyone to hold off purchasing a policy until it is actually needed. This will drive up the costs as more high cost treatments would then be required.

The purpose of insurance is to pool the risk of all covered policy holders. If anyone can jump in or out of the pool at anytime it is impossible to determine the risk exposure of the insurance companies.

812 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 11:20:22pm

re: #811 Cheechako

I agree with you. If insurance companies were forced to cover pre-existing conditions then it makes economic sense for everyone to hold off purchasing a policy until it is actually needed. This will drive up the costs as more high cost treatments would then be required.

The purpose of insurance is to pool the risk of all covered policy holders. If anyone can jump in or out of the pool at anytime it is impossible to determine the risk exposure of the insurance companies.

Correct. Whatever the results, the product ceases to be "insurance" with such constraints.

Also, by telegraphing intended rate controls, I absolutely guarantee that rates will, in the interim, spike upwards as insurance companies seek to position themselves against the controls, and lock in higher rates while they can. Note the recent surge in interest rates among credit card companies prior to Congress' new regulations taking effect, jumping to around 25% at a time when national interest rates remain at or near zero.

813 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 22, 2010 11:30:50pm

It's probably already been mentioned, but eight GOP senators didn't vote at all on this bill. One was in the hospital having surgery, but the other seven simply abstained. Under the current circumstances, abstention is the same as acquiescence, but without a "Yes" vote attached to your voting record. So those griping about Brown need to broaden their horizons and gripe at the GOP as a whole, if they're really opposed to passage. Because the GOP decided not to stand in the way of this bill coming to the floor.

814 garhighway  Tue, Feb 23, 2010 4:49:40am

re: #122 albusteve

False. Obviously government spending can create private sector jobs. Just ask, for example, Boeing, Bechtel, Northrup Grumman, Xe, or thousands of others, from dam builders to road pavers.

815 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 23, 2010 4:53:31am

re: #814 garhighway

False. Obviously government spending can create private sector jobs. Just ask, for example, Boeing, Bechtel, Northrup Grumman, Xe, or thousands of others, from dam builders to road pavers.

Don't forget military spending. That's a huge one. Beyond basic equipment spending just look what happens anytime there is a suggestion that a base be closed somewhere. Total freak out by local pols and loss of jobs and effects on the local economy are major factors in that freak out.

816 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 23, 2010 5:43:38am

re: #557 BryanS

No, since you have no idea how much doing nothing would cost, you can't actually claim that the 'government takeover' would be more expensive. That's my point.

817 oldegeezr  Tue, Feb 23, 2010 5:46:15am

re: #18 Gus 802

Ah ha ha…the hallelujah chorus; Beck, Limbaugh and Savage have turned into the hellonyou posse. Keep yer head up and your conscience clear Senator Brown…!

818 Bulldoglover100  Tue, Feb 23, 2010 6:04:25am

re: #812 SixDegrees

..Which is why it includes a mandate...that way those who choose to attempt to play the "Jump in when I get sick game" are still paying regardless.

819 oldegeezr  Tue, Feb 23, 2010 6:11:48am

re: #816 Obdicut

No, since you have no idea how much doing nothing would cost, you can't actually claim that the 'government takeover' would be more expensive. That's my point.

However… if you’re a member of Anthem Blue Cross of Callyforneeah, you know your new rates just went up my 39 percent for next year…
Ouch…!

820 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 23, 2010 6:13:33am

re: #819 oldegeezr

And I am, and I do know that. Which is why specious answers like BryanS's really hork me the hell off.

821 oldegeezr  Tue, Feb 23, 2010 6:17:06am

re: #820 Obdicut

For anyone else who can’t believe that…here’s the link…!

Anthem Asked To Justify Insurance Rate Hike
822 Hawaii69  Tue, Feb 23, 2010 4:19:11pm

re: #18 Gus 802

Here's a collection of Tweets collected by AmericaBlog:


Those people are clueless. They took Scott Browns' election to mean something that it did not.

Now, rather than realizing that they completely misread to situation, they are blaming him for "betraying" them.

....and most of these clowns probably aren't even from MA.

823 Hawaii69  Tue, Feb 23, 2010 4:22:12pm

re: #30 jamesfirecat

Well he got away with roadblocking the Major democratic agenda on Healthcare reform (even running on doing it) so I guess the Tea Party just expected him to make all their magical wishes come true and make sure Obama never got a chance to sign another bill into a law...


Since Romney already created a form of universal health care in Massachusetts, Brown had a lot of support from MA. on that.


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