Today’s big science news is this incredible image: the first direct optical sighting of a planet orbiting a star in another solar system.
For the first time, astronomers have been able to directly follow the motion of an exoplanet as it moves from one side of its host star to the other. Credit: ESO.Phil Plait has much more information on this historic photograph.
(Hat tip: Shiplord Kirel.)
1 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:29:08pm |
Earth first! We'll drill the other planets later.
/
| 2 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:32:50pm |
I wonder if anyone lives there. Eccentric orbit, so likely not. I wonder if the stars with confirmed planets or water will impact the priority of SETI programs. Especially blue planets.
| 4 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:37:05pm |
63 light years away, or 370,353,398,510,567.3 miles.
Pretty close, galactically speaking.
| 5 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:37:50pm |
re: #2 Rightwingconspirator
I wonder if anyone lives there. Eccentric orbit, so likely not. I wonder if the stars with confirmed planets or water will impact the priority of SETI programs. Especially blue planets.
I'd think that newly forming systems would be more hostile to life than your average system...but now i'm interested to read up on it...
| 6 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:38:27pm |
Thank you for linking to Phil Charles...He deserves the Traffic when it comes to Science...He is just an awesome guy...Worked 10 years on the Hubble..Has done so much research on the Anti-Vaxxers on his site...
Thanks
Have you ever checked out Dr. Pamela Gay? A Harvard grad..Teaching College and spending her own money to buy telescopes for the girl scouts and is married to a blues guitarist....And sometimes just blogs about her garden..I love that women
| 8 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:39:13pm |
re: #2 Rightwingconspirator
I wonder if anyone lives there. Eccentric orbit, so likely not. I wonder if the stars with confirmed planets or water will impact the priority of SETI programs. Especially blue planets.
you hate to see these things go to waste
| 9 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:39:58pm |
re: #6 HoosierHoops
Thank you for linking to Phil Charles...He deserves the Traffic when it comes to Science...He is just an awesome guy...Worked 10 years on the Hubble..Has done so much research on the Anti-Vaxxers on his site...
Thanks
Have you ever checked out Dr. Pamela Gay? A Harvard grad..Teaching College and spending her own money to buy telescopes for the girl scouts and is married to a blues guitarist...And sometimes just blogs about her garden..I love that women
Got a link Hoopster?
Oh yeah
[Link: www.starstryder.com...]
| 10 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:40:23pm |
re: #2 Rightwingconspirator
I wonder if anyone lives there. Eccentric orbit, so likely not. I wonder if the stars with confirmed planets or water will impact the priority of SETI programs. Especially blue planets.
Well its a rather large gas giant no? Unlikely that critters are there.
As to contacting other species, As I keep telling you, your Zionist Overlords are already here from Remulak.
| 11 |
ryannon Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:41:42pm |
One for Ludwig:
Echoes what you were saying here not very long ago.
| 13 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:42:38pm |
re: #8 albusteve
you hate to see these things go to waste
Only you don't use radio telescopes for optical measurements and radio waves are not well suited to planetary observations because of band they look in, but other than that your snarky and typically ignorant comment was completely irrelevant - as usual.
| 15 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:43:03pm |
| 16 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:43:10pm |
Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
/Futurama
| 17 |
ryannon Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:43:27pm |
| 18 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:44:08pm |
re: #16 Varek Raith
Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
/Futurama
Also required...
| 19 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:44:34pm |
| 20 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:47:02pm |
This is seriously cool stuff.
Thank you for delving outside the realm of politics to bring this to our attention Charles.
| 21 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:47:40pm |
re: #13 LudwigVanQuixote
Only you don't use radio telescopes for optical measurements and radio waves are not well suited to planetary observations because of band they look in, but other than that your snarky and typically ignorant comment was completely irrelevant - as usual.
playing with your dick again I see...hahaha!
you are such a child
| 23 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:48:25pm |
re: #20 Fozzie Bear
This is seriously cool stuff.
Thank you for delving outside the realm of politics to bring this to our attention Charles.
/OK we are all reloaded now...
back to politics.
| 24 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:48:39pm |
| 25 |
MandyManners Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:49:04pm |
| 26 |
MandyManners Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:49:31pm |
re: #19 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
That is so my favorite new word...
Is that what you get if you eat too much pie?
| 27 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:49:57pm |
"Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-eight million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea."
-Douglas Adams
| 28 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:50:38pm |
Yesterday on Rosie O'Donnell's radio show:
| 29 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:50:50pm |
re: #22 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
CELTICS!
If we don't win tonight..It's all over....3 hours!
I love this time of the year!
| 32 |
Shiplord Kirel Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:53:19pm |
I feel privileged that I have lived to see this. What would the great astronomers of the past have given for our equipment and facilities? Yet, luddites across the spectrum begrudge every cent spent on this kind of research.
I hope I live long enough to see detailed images of these newly discovered worlds as well. Progress in the difficult field of optical interferometry makes this possible.
The challenge is enormous though. Distinguishing features as large as, say, an Atlantic size ocean on a planet just 20 light years away is equivalent to resolving Lincoln's head on a penny as far away as the Moon.
| 33 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:54:20pm |
| 34 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:55:09pm |
re: #5 Aceofwhat?
I'd think that newly forming systems would be more hostile to life than your average system...but now i'm interested to read up on it...
Likely so, to say nothing of the heat variance with anything but a fairly circular orbit. In any case as I see the image I wonder, is anyone looking back? Things have changed since that light we see now left there. 63 years of change.
SETI people want to know-Sky survey or go with targeted scans?
[Link: www.setileague.org...]
| 35 |
MandyManners Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:55:26pm |
| 36 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:56:22pm |
re: #34 Rightwingconspirator
Likely so, to say nothing of the heat variance with anything but a fairly circular orbit. In any case as I see the image I wonder, is anyone looking back? Things have changed since that light we see now left there. 63 years of change.
SETI people want to know-Sky survey or go with targeted scans?
[Link: www.setileague.org...]
yeah, you hate to see these things go to waste...
Image: HD-7084P-2.jpg
right ludwig?
| 37 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:56:24pm |
re: #29 HoosierHoops
If we don't win tonight..It's all over...3 hours!
I love this time of the year!
Hoops... it's over... Chicago won last night... it's a done deal...
| 38 |
Areozol Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:56:28pm |
re: #10 LudwigVanQuixote
Well its a rather large gas giant no? Unlikely that critters are there.
Well, in "Avatar" blue cat people lived on gas giant' moon.
But still, the giant itself should be in habitable zone.
| 39 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:57:48pm |
re: #10 LudwigVanQuixote
I thought our friend under the Denver airport had uh... deported them. No papers ya see.
| 40 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 2:58:23pm |
re: #34 Rightwingconspirator
Likely so, to say nothing of the heat variance with anything but a fairly circular orbit. In any case as I see the image I wonder, is anyone looking back? Things have changed since that light we see now left there. 63 years of change.
SETI people want to know-Sky survey or go with targeted scans?
[Link: www.setileague.org...]
I interviewed a guy a couple of weeks ago who claimed to be a part of SETI, as well as a couple of other networked data processing groups...I thought, Yeah, I really want you having access to our VM lab.
| 41 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:00:07pm |
| 42 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:00:51pm |
re: #28 Cato the Elder
Yesterday on Rosie O'Donnell's radio show:
And this is news or something Cato... have you dinked around the intertubes much... where this issue is getting some screen time on leftist blogs or news sights... most of the chatter is pro-Helen... I tried to point this out the other day... this is not an issue... but the right is going to try to keep it on their top-ten best outrage list as long as possible.
| 43 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:01:01pm |
re: #40 darthstar
VM lab?
SETI would be a great way to use distributed processing of data. All that idle time just waiting for updates and emails. Why not signal process with idle time!
| 44 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:01:10pm |
re: #18 LudwigVanQuixote
I'd be curious of your views of my comments regarding the contrast between modern versions of the Beth Din and modern versions of Sharia law as you are knowledgeable about this subject.
In the thread about the Turkish Islamists, the lefty chorus was quite indignant about my claim that there is a clear distinction between Jewish law and Sharia, or that Sharia represented anything of concern.
The discussion starts about #772 and continues to the end:
| 45 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:01:28pm |
The filling seems to be solid, but the recipe said to put the pecans on the bottom and than pour on the filling, so the pecans are stuck on the bottom.
Next time I will put the pecans on top of the filling, it looks nicer that way.
Haven't eaten it yet.
| 46 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:02:10pm |
re: #41 Cato the Elder
You're making my point for me... no one takes this Helen Thomas thing seriously... except the wacky right.
| 47 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:02:46pm |
re: #42 Walter L. Newton
And this is news or something Cato... have you dinked around the intertubes much... where this issue is getting some screen time on leftist blogs or news sights... most of the chatter is pro-Helen... I tried to point this out the other day... this is not an issue... but the right is going to try to keep it on their top-ten best outrage list as long as possible.
it certainly is, almost as important as who got bounced off Am Idol last week...get with it Newton
| 48 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:03:18pm |
re: #44 Bagua
I'd be curious of your views of my comments regarding the contrast between modern versions of the Beth Din and modern versions of Sharia law as you are knowledgeable about this subject.
In the thread about the Turkish Islamists, the lefty chorus was quite indignant about my claim that there is a clear distinction between Jewish law and Sharia, or that Sharia represented anything of concern.
The discussion starts about #772 and continues to the end:
Oh dear God.
I am somehow confident that I don't have the energy right now to face the ignorance of anyone who thinks Jewish Law is anything like Shria law.
Just simply say this part... under Jewish law, women are expected to be able to read and write.
| 49 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:03:33pm |
re: #37 Walter L. Newton
Hoops... it's over... Chicago won last night... it's a done deal...
Hi Walter...You should do a gem page soon...
/I have never watched a Hockey game in my life..I have zero interest in Hockey...
Hope you are well
| 50 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:04:25pm |
re: #43 Rightwingconspirator
VM lab?
SETI would be a great way to use distributed processing of data. All that idle time just waiting for updates and emails. Why not signal process with idle time!
We have enough app-servers, operating systems, databases, etc. to keep our VM lab plenty busy...in fact, I'm limited to having only 15 concurrent machines myself.
| 51 |
MandyManners Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:05:19pm |
| 52 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:05:39pm |
re: #50 darthstar
We have enough app-servers, operating systems, databases, etc. to keep our VM lab plenty busy...in fact, I'm limited to having only 15 concurrent machines myself.
So, invade.
/
| 53 |
MandyManners Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:06:28pm |
The Kid has a double-header tonight so I'm outta' here!
| 54 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:06:42pm |
re: #32 Shiplord Kirel
I feel privileged that I have lived to see this. What would the great astronomers of the past have given for our equipment and facilities? Yet, luddites across the spectrum begrudge every cent spent on this kind of research.
I hope I live long enough to see detailed images of these newly discovered worlds as well. Progress in the difficult field of optical interferometry makes this possible.
The challenge is enormous though. Distinguishing features as large as, say, an Atlantic size ocean on a planet just 20 light years away is equivalent to resolving Lincoln's head on a penny as far away as the Moon.
Science is in its golden age right now. We move from triumph to triumph. But the big prize is proof of exo-life. An oxygen-rich atmosphere somewhere else would serve. A better mission to Titan might yield proof; there are tantalizing clues in the chemistry of Titan's atmosphere, and we know there are methane lakes and methane rain. Liquid methane just might serve as an alternative to liquid water as a solvent that life can use.
There's also the Mars asteroid evidence; how did those chains of lined-up magnetite crystals come to be? Random processes will break up linear sequences of pole-to-pole magnets. They are the equivalent of a needle balanced on its tip.
So odds are there's a lot of life out there. Gas giants with extreme elliptical orbits around hot new suns are about the worst candidates available, but the same tech that allows us to resolve this planet will get us to where we can spot oxygen in a planetary atmosphere if it's there, with any luck. The time frame? Sooner than Mr. Fusion, anyhow.
| 55 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:06:55pm |
re: #38 Areozol
Well, in "Avatar" blue cat people lived on gas giant' moon.
But still, the giant itself should be in habitable zone.
with an elliptical orbit?
| 56 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:07:52pm |
re: #50 darthstar
We have enough app-servers, operating systems, databases, etc. to keep our VM lab plenty busy...in fact, I'm limited to having only 15 concurrent machines myself.
My company just developed the most powerful blades in the world.. We can easily run 35 VM servers per blade...
Eat our Shorts HP!
| 57 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:08:03pm |
re: #45 Alouette
The filling seems to be solid, but the recipe said to put the pecans on the bottom and than pour on the filling, so the pecans are stuck on the bottom.
Next time I will put the pecans on top of the filling, it looks nicer that way.
Haven't eaten it yet.
cruel
| 58 |
tradewind Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:08:56pm |
Say a prayer for this child and her folks, who seem to lack the gene for parental instinct.
I feel for them, but W.T.F......
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
| 59 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:09:07pm |
re: #49 HoosierHoops
Hi Walter...You should do a gem page soon...
/I have never watched a Hockey game in my life..I have zero interest in Hockey...
Hope you are well
I'm well... the hockey remark was a joke... just for you, 6 stones, just cut and polished this morning... the two on each side are turquoise, the two in the middle... well, I bought the raw material yesterday, no label, but I think it's Parrot Wing, it was a large slab, 6x8 inches, dark green mixed with quartz and other layer agate...
They will turn into chokers in a few weeks. And I now have an artist coop store in town (Conifer) who will be handling 3-4 of my pieces at a time for sale... nice to have a place to tell people to go to if they are interested in my designs.
| 60 |
Areozol Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:09:22pm |
| 61 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:09:52pm |
re: #51 MandyManners
Is he really saying that she's off the hook because of Beck and Limbaugh?
No, but some people get paid TO make racially charged comments, and some people get forced into retirement when they make racially charged comments.
It'd be nice if a little of this (rightly deserved) Helen Thomas outrage would spill over a bit and get a couple of those big-tymah radio racists fired, but I'm not exactly holding my breath. Their business IS racism. Their advertisers count on it, their syndication companies count on it.
| 62 |
tradewind Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:10:02pm |
re: #45 Alouette
When you bake a pecan pie, the pecans will rise to the top, no matter where they start.
At least, that's my experience, after baking tons of 'em.
| 63 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:10:49pm |
By the way, if you're using the LGF Spy, you should now reload the page to get the latest version. The Master Spy now includes new user registrations in the events that are displayed. They show up as soon as the name is registered -- before the account is activated with the followup email link.
| 65 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:11:27pm |
re: #61 WindUpBird
No, but some people get paid TO make racially charged comments, and some people get forced into retirement when they make racially charged comments.
It'd be nice if a little of this (rightly deserved) Helen Thomas outrage would spill over a bit and get a couple of those big-tymah radio racists fired, but I'm not exactly holding my breath. Their business IS racism. Their advertisers count on it, their syndication companies count on it.
////Plus clearly racism only gets you fired these days if its against the Jews.... That my friends is why I'm here to say how much I can't stand those (gets crushed by 16 ton weight)
| 66 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:11:49pm |
re: #59 Walter L. Newton
I'm well... the hockey remark was a joke... just for you, 6 stones, just cut and polished this morning... the two on each side are turquoise, the two in the middle... well, I bought the raw material yesterday, no label, but I think it's Parrot Wing, it was a large slab, 6x8 inches, dark green mixed with quartz and other layer agate...
They will turn into chokers in a few weeks. And I now have an artist coop store in town (Conifer) who will be handling 3-4 of my pieces at a time for sale... nice to have a place to tell people to go to if they are interested in my designs.
That's cool.
:)
| 67 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:12:32pm |
re: #63 Charles
By the way, if you're using the LGF Spy, you should now reload the page to get the latest version. The Master Spy now includes new user registrations in the events that are displayed. They show up as soon as the name is registered -- before the account is activated with the followup email link.
Sweet.
| 68 |
tradewind Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:12:48pm |
re: #63 Charles
Depending on the topic, that could make for some interesting, if brief, moments.
:)
| 69 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:12:53pm |
re: #45 Alouette
The filling seems to be solid, but the recipe said to put the pecans on the bottom and than pour on the filling, so the pecans are stuck on the bottom.
Next time I will put the pecans on top of the filling, it looks nicer that way.
Haven't eaten it yet.
nice... you should attach a calendar to the bottom of the picture & send it to FVB.
| 73 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:14:29pm |
| 74 |
tradewind Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:14:34pm |
re: #61 WindUpBird
There's bigotry, perceived or actual, and then there's an actual call for ethnic cleansing.
Thomas was guilty of the latter. Some difference there, even if you stretch it.
| 76 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:14:58pm |
| 77 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:15:44pm |
re: #61 WindUpBird
No, but some people get paid TO make racially charged comments, and some people get forced into retirement when they make racially charged comments.
It'd be nice if a little of this (rightly deserved) Helen Thomas outrage would spill over a bit and get a couple of those big-tymah radio racists fired, but I'm not exactly holding my breath. Their business IS racism. Their advertisers count on it, their syndication companies count on it.
I don't disagree...it's just that her chosen profession is [purportedly] supposed to rise above the mire and put equal pressure on all sides.
She could go do an opinion show just like the rest of the nuts...
| 78 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:15:46pm |
re: #76 Racer X
Sock.
jhgfgkuRTYB didn't like his original nic.
Yeah, but what kind of parent names their kid fpzlIPsDVf? Only one vowel? And it's capitalized?
| 79 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:16:54pm |
re: #78 darthstar
Yeah, but what kind of parent names their kid fpzlIPsDVf? Only one vowel? And it's capitalized?
Orcs.
| 80 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:17:20pm |
re: #78 darthstar
Yeah, but what kind of parent names their kid fpzlIPsDVf? Only one vowel? And it's capitalized?
/you know, a foreigner...
| 81 |
Shiplord Kirel Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:18:01pm |
re: #54 lostlakehiker
Science is in its golden age right now. We move from triumph to triumph. But the big prize is proof of exo-life. An oxygen-rich atmosphere somewhere else would serve.
It is indeed the Holy Grail of science, but the resources devoted to it are paltry at best.
Space Interferometry Mission
The Space Interferometry Mission, also known as SIM Lite (formerly known as SIM PlanetQuest), is a planned space telescope being developed by the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), in conjunction with contractor Northrop Grumman. One of the main goals of the mission is the hunt for Earth-sized planets orbiting in the habitable zones of nearby stars other than the Sun.
........
SIM Lite was originally scheduled for a 2005 launch, aboard an Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle (EELV). As a result of continued budget cuts, the launch date has been pushed back at least five times. NASA has set a preliminary launch date for 2015 and U.S. federal budget documents confirm that a launch date is expected "no earlier" than 2015. The budget cuts to SIM Lite are expected to continue through FY 2010.
| 82 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:18:59pm |
re: #51 MandyManners
Is he really saying that she's off the hook because of Beck and Limbaugh?
Nope. He's saying they should be on the hook.
| 83 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:19:02pm |
re: #81 Shiplord Kirel
I read that as "Space Inferiority Mission" and thought, Well, Dr. Phil will have some regular business for a while.
| 84 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:19:36pm |
re: #82 Cato the Elder
Nope. He's saying they should be on the hook.
Doesn't bear thinking about what kind of fish you might catch with that kind of bait though......
| 85 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:20:00pm |
re: #82 Cato the Elder
Nope. He's saying they should be on the hook.
What's the point in having standards if they can't be doubled?
| 86 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:20:18pm |
| 87 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:20:54pm |
re: #84 jamesfirecat
Doesn't bear thinking about what kind of fish you might catch with that kind of bait though...
some bottom feeders are quite tasty though.
| 88 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:21:05pm |
re: #86 Varek Raith
BUSTED!
/
I just hope he disabled the auto-ip address blocking mechanism for sockpuppets...it would kind of suck if Charles blocked himself from accessing the site.
| 90 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:21:26pm |
re: #74 tradewind
There's bigotry, perceived or actual, and then there's an actual call for ethnic cleansing.
Thomas was guilty of the latter. Some difference there, even if you stretch it.
yeah sorry, I'm not going with you on the Helen Thomas' evil comments are awful just awful, and Glenn Beck and Limbaugh's evil comments are totally It's Okay if You're a Republican Look Over There!
Sorry, not there witcha, but carry on, you're as predictable as a clock. :) Helen Thomas is an ant politically, compared to the reach of syndicated radio hosts. Ask a hundred people on the street who Helen Thomas is and 98 of them won't know. Helen Thomas is not a household name. Helen Thomas is not signing quarter-billion-dollar deals. Helen Thomas does not have absolute power to destroy anyone's career in the Democratic Party the way Rush does to the GOP.
And of course, the obvious, which I shall emphasize, since you don't seem to understand: Helen Thomas was forced out of her career for what she said. Beck and LImbaugh are celebrated for what they've said, dutiful junior racists nodding in agreement to every single Bircher bon mot. End of story!
| 91 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:21:45pm |
re: #35 MandyManners
Stupid fucking bitch.
Rosie is a real piece of work. It's interesting that the show would bring up the terms "thought police" and "politically incorrect". They are improperly used. Thought police work to stamp out correct thought that goes against prevailing belief or doctrine. What Helen Thomas ran into was good old ethical hygiene. Her thinking was wrong on the facts (the Jews ARE back when they're in Israel), and wrong on the morality. You can't expect people to "go back" to a place they never once saw, a place their ancestors left because they were the remnant of a majority that was gassed. And wrong again on the facts: the Jews of Israel are not predominantly from Europe. The Sephardic Jews hail from places such as Morocco.
By the logic of Rosie and Helen, ethnic cleansing is OK when the victims are Jews. And then, icing on the cake, just having survived expulsion from the Arab world and made it to Israel makes them "occupiers".
| 92 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:21:47pm |
re: #85 darthstar
What's the point in having standards if they can't be doubled?
Romans never doubled their standards, and would fight to the death to get them back.
How times have changed.
| 93 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:21:52pm |
re: #88 darthstar
I just hope he disabled the auto-ip address blocking mechanism for sockpuppets...it would kind of suck if Charles blocked himself from accessing the site.
Paradox.
Scary stuff, man...
| 94 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:22:10pm |
re: #88 darthstar
I just hope he disabled the auto-ip address blocking mechanism for sockpuppets...it would kind of suck if Charles blocked himself from accessing the site.
LOL a skynet moment...
| 95 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:23:51pm |
re: #90 WindUpBird
Helen Thomas was an easy kill. Going after Limbaugh or Beck would piss off too many viewers, and as such cost the networks money. Far better to ignore the complaints about them and keep paying them multi-million dollar salaries.
| 96 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:24:10pm |
OK so I confess, I like Drawn Together. It is wrong, very wrong, very, very wrong, completely NSFW and not suitable for anyone except folks with very sick humor.
I'm watching the movie. Captain Hero just came to boys poker night with his dead girl friend.
The other guys ask how they met and he said - ohhhh... busted... we met on J-Date!
I nearly fell over laughing.
| 97 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:24:15pm |
those were the days...
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
whoa!...
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
| 98 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:24:30pm |
re: #88 darthstar
I just hope he disabled the auto-ip address blocking mechanism for sockpuppets...it would kind of suck if Charles blocked himself from accessing the site.
better yet... "open the pod bay door Hal..."
| 99 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:24:57pm |
re: #50 darthstar
That is a lot of hardware!
| 101 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:25:28pm |
I might have another possible scoop on the Peace Activist hostage takers. It's a bit of a stretch. Normally I'd float my theory in the comments to get some feedback but since people are stealing stories from LGF lately I'll put a page up about it just so we have a record of when it was posted. It might be nothing and I won't be offended is Charles deletes it as slanderous speculation. Stay tuned, it will take a few minutes to put together.
| 102 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:25:43pm |
Well, it's Thursday evening. The day of the Sufis.
And I'm going to watch "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" with Juliette Binoche as my stella star.
| 103 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:27:14pm |
re: #48 LudwigVanQuixote
Oh dear God.
I am somehow confident that I don't have the energy right now to face the ignorance of anyone who thinks Jewish Law is anything like Shria law.
Just simply say this part... under Jewish law, women are expected to be able to read and write.
I skimmed the thread, and I didn't see any comments making that comparison.
| 104 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:27:42pm |
| 105 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:28:29pm |
re: #101 Killgore Trout
I might have another possible scoop on the Peace Activist hostage takers. It's a bit of a stretch. Normally I'd float my theory in the comments to get some feedback but since people are stealing stories from LGF lately I'll put a page up about it just so we have a record of when it was posted. It might be nothing and I won't be offended is Charles deletes it as slanderous speculation. Stay tuned, it will take a few minutes to put together.
go on with your bad self. looking forward to the read.
| 106 |
wrenchwench Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:28:38pm |
Between LGF Master Spy and Happy Chair is Happy, I shall never get any work done.
| 107 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:29:02pm |
re: #103 Alouette
I skimmed the thread, and I didn't see any comments making that comparison.
Nobody did make that comparison.
They made the comparison to a legal system allowing a religious system to operate within it in the form of agreed-upon arbitrators.
| 108 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:30:58pm |
re: #106 wrenchwench
Between LGF Master Spy and Happy Chair is Happy, I shall never get any work done.
| 109 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:31:25pm |
re: #106 wrenchwench
Between LGF Master Spy and Happy Chair is Happy, I shall never get any work done.
Great...having trollcats, failblog, and cheezburger is bad enough...now I have to look at Happychair too?
| 110 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:31:47pm |
re: #106 wrenchwench
Between LGF Master Spy and Happy Chair is Happy, I shall never get any work done.
I knew a guy with a 56 Chevy who got a kick out of pulling in for gas and watching the poor attendants try to find gas tank... it was quite funny.
| 111 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:32:14pm |
| 112 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:32:15pm |
re: #107 Obdicut
Would you mind re posting your link to that Justice department vote study? I want to re read that, and could not find your earlier link. Google has been unhelpful this time.
| 113 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:32:47pm |
| 114 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:32:47pm |
In Soviet Russia, Ground Watch Satellites
Image: 129189464352201733.jpg
| 115 |
Ayeless in Ghazi Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:32:52pm |
Awesome stuff! Can't wait to see what the next generation of telescopes/large array set-ups etc are going to reveal.
Btw if you're in the NY area, you have to check out the show at the planetarium in the Natural history Museum. It's pretty amazing. You will want to go again.
| 116 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:33:06pm |
| 117 |
wrenchwench Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:33:22pm |
re: #109 darthstar
Great...having trollcats, failblog, and cheezburger is bad enough...now I have to look at Happychair too?
Don't tell me you've been missing There I Fixed It!!
| 118 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:33:26pm |
re: #110 brookly red
I knew a guy with a 56 Chevy who got a kick out of pulling in for gas and watching the poor attendants try to find gas tank... it was quite funny.
left side tail fin..kewl!
| 119 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:33:27pm |
re: #59 Walter L. Newton
I'm well... the hockey remark was a joke... just for you, 6 stones, just cut and polished this morning... the two on each side are turquoise, the two in the middle... well, I bought the raw material yesterday, no label, but I think it's Parrot Wing, it was a large slab, 6x8 inches, dark green mixed with quartz and other layer agate...
They will turn into chokers in a few weeks. And I now have an artist coop store in town (Conifer) who will be handling 3-4 of my pieces at a time for sale... nice to have a place to tell people to go to if they are interested in my designs.
Pretty stuff Walter, just up my alley! I've been collecting semi and precious colored stones for over two decades and in the last decade I've become a bead-a-holic. In the jewelry industry downtown Los Angeles we refer to the type of turquoise you're cutting as "Matrix" Turquoise. I love the color variations and the zoning I'm seeing.
| 120 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:34:27pm |
re: #115 Jimmah
Awesome stuff! Can't wait to see what the next generation of telescopes/large array set-ups etc are going to reveal.
Btw if you're in the NY area, you have to check out the show at the planetarium in the Natural history Museum. It's pretty amazing. You will want to go again.
What up bro? Hope today finds you well..
| 121 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:34:36pm |
re: #117 wrenchwench
Don't tell me you've been missing There I Fixed It!!
| 122 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:35:13pm |
| 123 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:35:14pm |
Disapproving kayak is shocked by your behavior.
Image: 129189464608387765.jpg
| 124 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:36:05pm |
re: #123 Varek Raith
Disapproving kayak is shocked by your behavior.
Image: 129189464608387765.jpg
Ooooh Varek very, very funny picture! Up-ding!
| 125 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:36:06pm |
re: #112 Rightwingconspirator
Here is the Times article on the probe; I don't have a direct link to a publication by the Justice Department:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
And her is an excellent, excellent overview of many cases by the Brennan Center For Justice, an institution that's like the ACLU of voting rights:
[Link: www.brennancenter.org...]
| 126 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:37:31pm |
Since we are talking planets and all, we (D-L &I) are going to Griffith Park Observatory Saturday morning for a hike and some photography of the life around there. Maybe a panorama shot from the observation deck.
| 127 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:38:51pm |
re: #125 Obdicut
Thanks!! 1 up and fav'ed. I went digging today and I did find some interesting stuff for another time when that is the topic.
BTW-Congratulations on your wedding and planning going so well!
| 128 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:39:18pm |
re: #115 Jimmah
Awesome stuff! Can't wait to see what the next generation of telescopes/large array set-ups etc are going to reveal.
Btw if you're in the NY area, you have to check out the show at the planetarium in the Natural history Museum. It's pretty amazing. You will want to go again.
Jimmah!!1!
Mandy was lookin' for you last night.
| 129 |
Ayeless in Ghazi Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:39:24pm |
Ruh-ro. Bill 'minibrain' Donohue takes on Stephen Hawking; comedy ensues :
Donohue vs. Hawking
It's like Bambi vs. Godzilla, except no one would consider Donohue cute and innocent. In an interview, Hawking talked about gods:
"What could define God [is thinking of God] as the embodiment of the laws of nature. However, this is not what most people would think of that God," Hawking told Sawyer. "They made a human-like being with whom one can have a personal relationship. When you look at the vast size of the universe and how insignificant an accidental human life is in it, that seems most impossible."
When Sawyer asked if there was a way to reconcile religion and science, Hawking said, "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works."
Straightforward and sensible, that's a scientist talking. Bill Donohue, who is anything but sensible, took exception to all that.
How any rational person could belittle the pivotal role that human life plays in the universe is a wonder, but it is just as silly to say that all religions are marked by the absence of reason. While there are some religions which are devoid of reason, there are others, such as Roman Catholicism, which have long assigned it a special place.
Human life plays a pivotal role in the universe? How? Is the orbit of Mars influenced by human activities, does the Andromeda galaxy, 2.5 million light years away, care in the slightest about a species so remote that they're still waiting for the glimmerings of light from the fires they used to roast a mammoth? We could wink out of existence right now and the universe would go on, fundamentally unchanged.
continued:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]
| 130 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:39:37pm |
re: #103 Alouette
I skimmed the thread, and I didn't see any comments making that comparison.
I'm just talking in general. You have to be a real ignorant twit to think that Jewish law - from which we derive a great deal of our civil law today in America, is anything really like Sharia.
Just for example:
1. A Beit Din hasn't executed anyone in over 2100 years. And back in the day, capital punishment was frowned on. For those who don't know, a Beit Din that executed twice in ten years was called a court of murderers and disbanded. This is because even though capital punishment was on the books, it was procedurally almost impossible to convict (by design).
2. A woman has all sorts of rights in case of divorce. That is what a Ketubah is for after all. Further, you can't just divorce her at whim. She has to accept the get (writ of divorce).
3. No chattel slavery. To this day, the only actual slave markets int he world are in Muslim nations.
4. No boinking 9 year olds...
5. The ruler is subject to the same laws as the people. We had Magna Carta 200 years before Magna Carta.
6. A woman's testimony counts the same as a man's.
7. You are not allowed to beat your wife. In fact, back in the day, if you did, she could go to the court, and the Beit Din could force the husband to write a get and pay damages to her.
8. In Jewish law, married women are supposed to enjoy sex and her husband is supposed to be caring for her needs in that department. This is in stark contrast to mutilating a womans' genitals so that she will always be a pleasureless slave to her husband.
9. Oh yeah, women can own property, inherit, and run businesses as well.
I could go on a lot more... but I hope that makes a point. Any lefty who cares about human rights at all need only look to Jewish law to find the source of most of his values. I am totally sick of these kneejerk idiots who think that they know a damn thing about it.
| 132 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:41:19pm |
| 133 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:41:43pm |
re: #119 Dragon_Lady
Pretty stuff Walter, just up my alley! I've been collecting semi and precious colored stones for over two decades and in the last decade I've become a bead-a-holic. In the jewelry industry downtown Los Angeles we refer to the type of turquoise you're cutting as "Matrix" Turquoise. I love the color variations and the zoning I'm seeing.
The two pieces of turquoise on either end are Kingman, I'm not sure were the baby blue one with the quartz matrix is from, the one second from the right turns out to be a Morceni Mine piece I found yesterday in my supplies. That black band in the middle is peppered with pyrite, which doesn't show up well in the picture...
My favorite color turquoise would be the darker blue as in that Morceni piece. From what I am told, the folks in the East and far east are more impressed with "pure" turquoise, without all the matrix, where as matrix turquoise is more popular with westerners.
One thing I can say about the matrix stuff, you can be sure it's not stabilized chalky stuff so predominate coming out of China.
| 134 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:42:39pm |
re: #35 MandyManners
Stupid fucking bitch.
On that opinion you and I are in total agreement! If there's one celeb I hate the most its ROSIE! I wouldn't give her the time of day if she ever asked me for it, I'm more likely to spit in her face and turn my back on her. The "C" word was invented with her in mind, I think.
| 135 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:42:44pm |
re: #130 LudwigVanQuixote
Important correction.
5. The ruler is subject to the same laws as the people. We had Magna Carta 2000 years before Magna Carta.
| 136 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:42:47pm |
re: #107 Obdicut
Nobody did make that comparison.
They made the comparison to a legal system allowing a religious system to operate within it in the form of agreed-upon arbitrators.
OK, that makes sense. I see the anti-Sharia folks making the claim that Sharia arbitration courts will not operate within the civil constraints that are accepted by Jewish rabbinical courts. But the point is that Sharia courts, just like rabbinical courts, are not allowed to operate outside the constraints that civil law places on them. A Sharia court will not be allowed to carry out a death penalty, and if they should do so, they would be prosecuted for murder.
| 137 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:43:56pm |
| 138 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:44:29pm |
re: #136 Alouette
Exactly. And it's far better for these things to be out in public, out in the light, rather than that crap we heard about with the girl who got raped having to 'confess' in her church.
| 140 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:44:57pm |
| 141 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:45:05pm |
re: #136 Alouette
OK, that makes sense. I see the anti-Sharia folks making the claim that Sharia arbitration courts will not operate within the civil constraints that are accepted by Jewish rabbinical courts. But the point is that Sharia courts, just like rabbinical courts, are not allowed to operate outside the constraints that civil law places on them. A Sharia court will not be allowed to carry out a death penalty, and if they should do so, they would be prosecuted for murder.
I say one land one law.
| 142 |
Ayeless in Ghazi Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:45:11pm |
re: #120 HoosierHoops
What up bro? Hope today finds you well..
Hi there Hoops!
Hope things are well with you too. Heavy rain here in NY just now; I'm liking the cooler weather we are getting just now, I have to admit.
PS I'll be rooting for the USA on saturday (which won't come as too much of a shock, I daresay) :)
| 143 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:46:02pm |
| 144 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:46:15pm |
re: #134 Dragon_Lady
On that opinion you and I are in total agreement! If there's one celeb I hate the most its ROSIE! I wouldn't give her the time of day if she ever asked me for it, I'm more likely to spit in her face and turn my back on her. The "C" word was invented with her in mind, I think.
awww tell us how you really feel ;)
| 145 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:46:49pm |
re: #141 brookly red
I say one land one law.
What is your objection to having two Jews agree to settle their differences with an arbitrator of their choosing, following Jewish custom?
| 146 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:47:01pm |
Is anyone else following the story on the young lady sailor? Lost out there between Australia and Madagascar. She has activated her EPIRB, not the automatic one, the manual one. A call for help 2000 miles from land, in heavy seas.
| 147 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:47:40pm |
re: #145 Obdicut
What is your objection to having two Jews agree to settle their differences with an arbitrator of their choosing, following Jewish custom?
Because they will end up with three decisions...
/
(do I have to).
| 148 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:48:10pm |
| 149 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:48:38pm |
Hey, I got a call for an interview on Monday. I was starting to think my phone was set to ignore incoming offers. It's a job as a proofreader. That could be fun.
| 150 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:49:35pm |
re: #145 Obdicut
What is your objection to having two Jews agree to settle their differences with an arbitrator of their choosing, following Jewish custom?
none, and I live bordering an Orthodox neighborhood... but the local laws trump all.
Please also note the Jews do not try to impose their laws on others.
| 151 |
Ayeless in Ghazi Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:49:44pm |
re: #131 LudwigVanQuixote
Hey! How is my favorite Scot?
Pretty good - looking forward to seeing England getting trounced on Saturday;) Ice-ski and I are going to post some more pictures from NYC soon btw.
Hope all is well with you and your girl :)
| 152 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:49:52pm |
Was the Photographer One of the Hostage Takers?
I'll admit that this is a bit of a stretch, I'd like some honest opinions/criticism.
| 153 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:50:02pm |
re: #150 brookly red
Okay. Then I'm not sure what your statement meant, in context of the conversation. Could you explain?
| 154 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:50:24pm |
| 155 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:51:00pm |
re: #133 Walter L. Newton
The two pieces of turquoise on either end are Kingman, I'm not sure were the baby blue one with the quartz matrix is from, the one second from the right turns out to be a Morceni Mine piece I found yesterday in my supplies. That black band in the middle is peppered with pyrite, which doesn't show up well in the picture...
My favorite color turquoise would be the darker blue as in that Morceni piece. From what I am told, the folks in the East and far east are more impressed with "pure" turquoise, without all the matrix, where as matrix turquoise is more popular with westerners.
One thing I can say about the matrix stuff, you can be sure it's not stabilized chalky stuff so predominate coming out of China.
Oh, I'm a big one for the zoning in stones. I'll just bet the baby blue piece you're referring to is from the Sleeping Beauty mine, I have some and cheep it is not! I paid $80.00 (don't tell RWC!) for a strand of 6mm x 3mm tube Sleeping Beauty Beads and that was wholesale! With my employee discount too! I used to work for A & P Trading in DT L.A. and I have more gemstone beads and strands of fresh water pearls than I care to admit to. Love em'! I do link to link wire wrap jewelry when the mood strikes me.
| 156 |
SixDegrees Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:51:13pm |
re: #146 Rightwingconspirator
Is anyone else following the story on the young lady sailor? Lost out there between Australia and Madagascar. She has activated her EPIRB, not the automatic one, the manual one. A call for help 2000 miles from land, in heavy seas.
Saw that. 16 years old, and the nearest ship is 40 hours away. Her parents are soliciting anyone with in the area with an aircraft to help look for her.
On the plus side, she has extensive emergency equipment and supplies. But the remote location makes the situation dire.
| 157 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:52:21pm |
re: #144 brookly red
awww tell us how you really feel ;)
I don't pop off very often but when I do you can bet the S.O.B. deserves it and then some! Sorry about the rant though.
| 158 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:52:34pm |
re: #103 Alouette
#1082
Now I've read Iteration #4343 of "Why Sharia Law Is Really, Really Bad And Scary, And Just The Same In New Jersey As Saudi Arabia, And Halacha Is Just Like Civil Law, Really", and I'm not much calmer.
My comment was that:
Sharia law in the year 2010 really is a vile thing that should be legislated against. Modern Jewish law is really quite benign and has no agenda to impose its will on non-orthodox Jews.
This was met with Lol the Jews do it too with their Beth Din.
#901, #919, #861 Lol, #854
All citing.
Jewish Beth Din courts operate under the same provision in the Arbitration Act and resolve civil cases, ranging from divorce to business disputes. They have existed in Britain for more than 100 years, and previously operated under a precursor to the act.
With the inference that since the Jewish Beth Din operates under the same covering law, there is no need to single out Sharia law as they are comperable. Nothing to be concerned with, just like the Jews.
My argument is that while they may both be covered by the same common law statute, there is no true equivalence between the Modern Beth Din which concerns itself primarily with marriage, divorce and voluntary arbitration of financial disputes and Sharia law, which has a goal of imposing their moral codes on the secular Muslims in their community, codes which oppress women and gays.
| 159 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:52:43pm |
re: #156 SixDegrees
Saw that. 16 years old, and the nearest ship is 40 hours away. Her parents are soliciting anyone with in the area with an aircraft to help look for her.
On the plus side, she has extensive emergency equipment and supplies. But the remote location makes the situation dire.
Let's hope the pirates don't find the poppet first.
| 160 |
SixDegrees Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:53:00pm |
re: #149 JasonA
Hey, I got a call for an interview on Monday. I was starting to think my phone was set to ignore incoming offers. It's a job as a proofreader. That could be fun.
Here's a tip: when you're checking spelling, it can be helpful to read the document backward. Context can make you skip over mistakes that become much more obvious once sentence structure is removed.
| 161 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:53:09pm |
re: #158 Bagua
There is no one monolithic version of Sharia, though.
| 162 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:53:41pm |
re: #144 brookly red
awww tell us how you really feel ;)
Americans are so deeply invested in television and radio heads, that they are inexplicably angered by some twit they can't stand...curious...yet everyday they watch and pump the numbers up
| 163 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:53:46pm |
re: #158 Bagua
And aren't we still talking about voluntary participation with arbitrators?
| 164 |
Aceofwhat? Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:53:53pm |
re: #129 Jimmah
Ruh-ro. Bill 'minibrain' Donohue takes on Stephen Hawking; comedy ensues :
continued:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]
Hawking said "that seems most impossible"??
| 165 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:53:53pm |
re: #142 Jimmah
Meh, there's no shame in rooting for another country's sports teams, as long as you aren't rooting against the U.S. ;)
| 166 |
darthstar Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:54:11pm |
Damn...I really want this for my house.
| 167 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:54:13pm |
re: #152 Killgore Trout
Was the Photographer One of the Hostage Takers?
I'll admit that this is a bit of a stretch, I'd like some honest opinions/criticism.
If you stop it at 28, look at his beard, it seems much shorter that the person in the picture at top of the stairs holding the bloody man
| 168 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:54:16pm |
re: #153 Obdicut
Okay. Then I'm not sure what your statement meant, in context of the conversation. Could you explain?
Sure. Local laws trump. I thought it was pretty , clear unless you want to make it an issue. Various groups have there own laws and customs & often deal with matters in "traditional" ways... but there is only one court system & one law.
| 169 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:54:43pm |
re: #160 SixDegrees
Here's a tip: when you're checking spelling, it can be helpful to read the document backward. Context can make you skip over mistakes that become much more obvious once sentence structure is removed.
:) Thanks, but I've done it before on a freelance basis. I do appreciate it, Six.
| 170 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:54:45pm |
re: #145 Obdicut
What is your objection to having two Jews agree to settle their differences with an arbitrator of their choosing, following Jewish custom?
for me nothing, but that has nothing to do with law
| 171 |
SixDegrees Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:55:17pm |
re: #169 JasonA
:) Thanks, but I've done it before on a freelance basis. I do appreciate it, Six.
I kinda figured that, but I wasn't sure. Good luck, in any case.
| 172 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:55:21pm |
re: #168 brookly red
Okay. Again, I'm unclear how that applies to what we're talking about, since nobody is talking about local law being trumped by anything. Assuming that you don't mean that local law can't be trumped by the Constitution and all that.
| 173 |
Fozzie Bear Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:55:36pm |
re: #167 Walter L. Newton
If you stop it at 28, look at his beard, it seems much shorter that the person in the picture at top of the stairs holding the bloody man
Obviously, the man is a master with a beard trimmer. He can sculpt a goatee in the midst of a melee as easily as you or I could walk and chew gum simultaneously. /
| 174 |
Ayeless in Ghazi Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:56:19pm |
re: #128 Cato the Elder
Jimmah!!1!
Mandy was lookin' for you last night.
I saw. I thought it was pretty cute that she was apparently the only regular poster on LGF that didn't know ice-ski and I have been living together in NY and therefore not posting as much as usual since - uh - late march!
Nice to know we're in her thoughts though.
| 175 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:56:45pm |
re: #157 Dragon_Lady
I feel the same way rant on, rant on.re: #172 Obdicut
Okay. Again, I'm unclear how that applies to what we're talking about, since nobody is talking about local law being trumped by anything. Assuming that you don't mean that local law can't be trumped by the Constitution and all that.
good night dude.
| 176 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:57:01pm |
re: #167 Walter L. Newton
As I posted on your link: THe hair looks different. the eyes also look different.
Don't think it's the same guy.
But in that video there's a woman with a baby. A baby! Who the fuck takes a baby to run a blockade? Terrible, terrible parent. Don't impose your goddamn politics on your baby. Selfish, selfish woman.
| 177 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:58:03pm |
re: #152 Killgore Trout
Was the Photographer One of the Hostage Takers?
I'll admit that this is a bit of a stretch, I'd like some honest opinions/criticism.
I can't tell, but the Arab gibberish drives my crazy...too many people yacking at once
| 178 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:58:17pm |
| 179 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:58:23pm |
re: #155 Dragon_Lady
Oh, I'm a big one for the zoning in stones. I'll just bet the baby blue piece you're referring to is from the Sleeping Beauty mine, I have some and cheep it is not! I paid $80.00 (don't tell RWC!) for a strand of 6mm x 3mm tube Sleeping Beauty Beads and that was wholesale! With my employee discount too! I used to work for A & P Trading in DT L.A. and I have more gemstone beads and strands of fresh water pearls than I care to admit to. Love em'! I do link to link wire wrap jewelry when the mood strikes me.
No, I don't think the baby blue is Sleeping Beauty. Sleeping Beauty rarely has much matrix in it (as far as I know)... from what I gather, that's why it sells so high, for those folks who are more into the matrix free stuff... in this picture below, the fanciful "moon" pendant I made, see the eyes, that's Sleeping Beauty. I made the eyes out of some Sleeping Beauty beads... the mouth is not Sleeping Beauty, even though it's a similar blue... for a matter of fact, the mouth is from the same piece as the large oval we are talking about... I had a lot of that baby blue stuff with the pale tan quartz in it.
| 180 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 3:59:47pm |
re: #142 Jimmah
Hi there Hoops!
Hope things are well with you too. Heavy rain here in NY just now; I'm liking the cooler weather we are getting just now, I have to admit.
PS I'll be rooting for the USA on saturday (which won't come as too much of a shock, I daresay) :)
I won't be in Soccer.. I'm a huge Netherlands fan.. I have the Orange uniform from 2005 when I was in Europe....Go Dutch!
| 181 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:00:07pm |
New estimate: Up to 40,000 barrels a day was coming from BP well
(CNN) -- Scientists now estimate the leaking BP oil well in the Gulf of Mexico was releasing 20,000 to 40,000 barrels -- or 840,000 to 1.7 million gallons -- per day through last week, the head of the U.S. Geological Survey said Thursday.The scientists' previous estimate was 12,000 to 19,000 barrels per day.
The new estimate is of the well's flow rate prior to BP's cutting of the damaged riser pipe extending from the well's blowout preventer last week, U.S. Geological Survey Director Marcia McNutt said. After BP cut the riser on June 3, it placed a containment cap over the preventer's lower marine riser package to capture some of the leaking oil.
Scientists estimate that the spill's flow rate increased by 4 to 5 percent after the well's riser pipe was cut last week in order to place the cap atop the well.
BP says that with the cap, it is capturing about 16,000 barrels daily and funneling it to a ship on the surface. Before that, BP was capturing some oil through a siphon inserted into the well riser.
| 182 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:00:10pm |
re: #176 Obdicut
As I posted on your link: THe hair looks different. the eyes also look different.
Don't think it's the same guy.
But in that video there's a woman with a baby. A baby! Who the fuck takes a baby to run a blockade? Terrible, terrible parent. Don't impose your goddamn politics on your baby. Selfish, selfish woman.
Human shields. Civilized people think twice shooting when babies are around and dead babies make great publicity. Also notice that they're celebrating in that video. They are all very happy about what just happened.
| 183 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:00:15pm |
OK, let me file this under "Google searches gone bad"...
(but I like it anyway)
[Link: www.hotchickseatingpizza.com...]
| 184 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:00:24pm |
re: #163 Obdicut
And aren't we still talking about voluntary participation with arbitrators?
Nope. The Islamists agenda is clear, they are seeking social control and are abusing this privilege as part of their quest to impose universal Sharia law upon Muslim countries and Muslims living in non-Muslim countries.
Note that the victims of this social repression are not non-Muslims, they are secular Muslims, especially women and gays. There are some parallels to this in what we are seeing from radical So-Cons in the US which we all condemn, but I'm not aware of this from Orthodox Jews and not sure why Islamists get a pass.
The New Statesman Defends Islamism expands on my thinking about the problems with Islamism.
| 185 |
Ayeless in Ghazi Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:00:26pm |
Must dash - time to do some chores. Later folks :)
| 186 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:03:03pm |
re: #178 Racer X
They all look alike to me.
/
Yeah, I was worried about that. They do look similar but the consensus seems to be they probably aren't the same person. I thought the coincidence of the same colored shirt or jacket might tip the scales. Maybe not.
| 187 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:04:17pm |
re: #181 Varek Raith
New estimate: Up to 40,000 barrels a day was coming from BP well
The 12 - 19k a day estimate was made when the riser was leaking farther away. It was kinked in several places upstream - reducing the flow. Once they cut the riser off it was a straight flow with no restrictions; more oil leaking until they put the cap on.
I think.
| 188 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:04:44pm |
re: #184 Bagua
I'm sorry, who's giving Islamicists a pass?
I don't think anyone agrees with letting Sharia law replace the constitution. Certainly nobody in the thread you referenced did.
I thought in that thread what was being discussed was the allowance of Sharia courts for civil law in the same way that the Beth Din courts operate; under the aegis of the nation's law, not in any way outside or above it, requiring voluntary participation.
Even that would only fit into the US system in the role of arbitrators, which also require voluntary participation-- and I don't think it could be present for family law, at all, in the US.
| 189 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:05:04pm |
re: #183 brookly red
OK, let me file this under "Google searches gone bad"...
(but I like it anyway)
[Link: www.hotchickseatingpizza.com...]
Do NOT show that to FBV.
| 190 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:06:11pm |
re: #187 Racer X
The 12 - 19k a day estimate was made when the riser was leaking farther away. It was kinked in several places upstream - reducing the flow. Once they cut the riser off it was a straight flow with no restrictions; more oil leaking until they put the cap on.
I think.
That is correct, it was estimated that cutting the Riser would increase the flow by about 20%, but this was a rough estimate, as was BP's original estimate of 5,000 bbl/day which they made clear was only a guess.
| 192 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:08:28pm |
BBS, gotta go see a neighbor for a moment. :re: #179 Walter L. Newton
No, I don't think the baby blue is Sleeping Beauty. Sleeping Beauty rarely has much matrix in it (as far as I know)... from what I gather, that's why it sells so high, for those folks who are more into the matrix free stuff... in this picture below, the fanciful "moon" pendant I made, see the eyes, that's Sleeping Beauty. I made the eyes out of some Sleeping Beauty beads... the mouth is not Sleeping Beauty, even though it's a similar blue... for a matter of fact, the mouth is from the same piece as the large oval we are talking about... I had a lot of that baby blue stuff with the pale tan quartz in it.
-)
The reason you don't see it is because they refuse to put it on the market, but they do have Sleeping Beauty with matrix in it. A friend Of our got his hands on a small piece only because he had to promise not to sell it, but its not unheard of. One of these days I'd love to buy one of your pieces. Maybe some day in the future?
| 193 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:09:17pm |
re: #188 Obdicut
I don't think anyone agrees with letting Sharia law replace the constitution.
Other than extremist Muslims, that is.
| 194 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:09:54pm |
re: #190 Bagua
That is correct, it was estimated that cutting the Riser would increase the flow by about 20%, but this was a rough estimate, as was BP's original estimate of 5,000 bbl/day which they made clear was only a guess.
5k, 12k, 30k - the exact amount leaking per day doesn't matter. That is a shitload of oil they need to clean up.
I heard today that Obama wants BP to pay the salaries of all those employees that HE has told can no longer work pulling oil out of the ground. True?
| 195 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:10:38pm |
re: #191 Varek Raith
I don't believe a damn thing BP says...
Me neither! But, unfortunately for us, their gas is the least expensive around right now and we (RWC and I) have no choice but to buy from them.
| 196 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:11:21pm |
re: #192 Dragon_Lady
BBS, gotta go see a neighbor for a moment. :
-)
The reason you don't see it is because they refuse to put it on the market, but they do have Sleeping Beauty with matrix in it. A friend Of our got his hands on a small piece only because he had to promise not to sell it, but its not unheard of. One of these days I'd love to buy one of your pieces. Maybe some day in the future?
That wouldn't surprise me. Sleeping Beauty is prized for it pure baby blue color, without any other minerals in the mix, so, matrix laden Sleeping Beauty could be kept off the market to keep the "purity" factor intact... I would love to see Sleeping Beauty with some matrix and zoning.
| 197 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:11:24pm |
re: #155 Dragon_Lady
Oh, I'm a big one for the zoning in stones. I'll just bet the baby blue piece you're referring to is from the Sleeping Beauty mine, I have some and cheep it is not! I paid $80.00 (don't tell RWC!) for a strand of 6mm x 3mm tube Sleeping Beauty Beads and that was wholesale! With my employee discount too! I used to work for A & P Trading in DT L.A. and I have more gemstone beads and strands of fresh water pearls than I care to admit to. Love em'! I do link to link wire wrap jewelry when the mood strikes me.
*clears throat* Busted! No pie for you young lady!
| 198 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:11:44pm |
re: #191 Varek Raith
I don't believe a damn thing BP says...
Neither does Obama. When he spoke with the CEO of BP he told him that.
Wait - no he didn't. Obama has never even talked with the CEO of BP. Wouldn't you call the guy up at least once and say "what the fuck"?
| 199 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:12:07pm |
re: #161 Obdicut
There is no one monolithic version of Sharia, though.
I agree, which is why I was clear to cite all four active branches of Sunni Sharia and the Shia version.
The Islamist are fairly united in favouring the most extreme interpretation which is quite worrying.
Here is my summary:
re: #890 Nimed
As long as they are compatible with Britain's legal system, I absolutely equate them.
You should read up on Sharia law, it is by no means even remotely comparable to Jewish people in Britain advocate.
The Jewish version has the ability to grant a divorce, or serve as a mediator in a minor dispute.
The Sharia version has rules that enforce moral codes and personal behaviour. For example:
All homosexuals should be stoned to death, says Muslim preacher of hate
He is in London where there are numerous similar examples. You will be hard pressed to find a Rabbi give a press conference or sermon like this.
And in fact, this reflects modern Sharia law as all four schools of Sunni Islam not only outlaw homosexual acts, something they all agree with, they all advocate punishments:
* The Hanafi school does not consider same-sex intercourse to constitute adultery, and therefore leaves punishment up to the judge's discretion. Most early scholars of this school specifically ruled out the death penalty, others allow it for a second offence.
* Imam Shafi'i considers same-sex intercourse as analogous to other zina; thus, a married person found to have done so is punished as an adulterer (by stoning to death), and an unmarried one, as a fornicator, is left to be flogged.
* The Maliki school says that anyone (married or unmarried) found to have committed same-sex intercourse should be punished as an adulterer.
* Within the Ja'fari schools, Sayyid al-Khoi says that anyone (married or unmarried) found to have committed same-sex intercourse should be punished as an adulterer.
Sharia law in the year 2010 really is a vile thing that should be legislated against. Modern Jewish law is really quite benign and has no agenda to impose its will on non-orthodox Jews.
| 200 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:12:10pm |
re: #188 Obdicut
Even that would only fit into the US system in the role of arbitrators, which also require voluntary participation-- and I don't think it could be present for family law, at all, in the US.
[Link: www.2ndcoa.courts.state.tx.us...]
Conclusion
We reverse the trial court's orders denying Appellants' motions to stay litigation and to compel arbitration in these two consolidated cases. We render judgment that the Arbitration Agreement signed by the parties is valid and enforceable and covers all disputes between the parties that arose prior to the date the parties signed the Arbitration Agreement, including all matters that were the subject of the partial summary judgment previously granted by the trial court.
| 201 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:12:46pm |
re: #167 Walter L. Newton
If you stop it at 28, look at his beard, it seems much shorter that the person in the picture at top of the stairs holding the bloody man
You are looking at "before" and "after" he messed with the Zohan.
| 202 |
Amory Blaine Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:12:55pm |
Info on the telescope they used. Pretty impressive stuff.
| 203 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:12:57pm |
re: #195 Dragon_Lady
Me neither! But, unfortunately for us, their gas is the least expensive around right now and we (RWC and I) have no choice but to buy from them.
Up here in Conifer Colorado, I can get Bradley gas for 2.48 right now, and that's a good price, since most of the gas up in the hills here sells at a 10-15 cent premium, both due to the tourist trade and the fact that it probably costs them a few extra to get it up into the hills.
| 204 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:12:59pm |
re: #166 darthstar
Damn...I really want this for my house.
Awesome! Me too! I can just see RWC sliding down it!
| 205 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:13:49pm |
re: #204 Dragon_Lady
Would RWC be jealous if I squeezed your avatar? It's adorable!
| 206 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:14:00pm |
re: #194 Racer X
5k, 12k, 30k - the exact amount leaking per day doesn't matter. That is a shitload of oil they need to clean up.
I heard today that Obama wants BP to pay the salaries of all those employees that HE has told can no longer work pulling oil out of the ground. True?
I read that, yes. They are making payments to fishermen, but BP is alleging that the Moratorium is not their decision and unnecessary.
| 207 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:14:07pm |
re: #204 Dragon_Lady
Put up a page yet?
| 208 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:14:53pm |
re: #205 JasonA
Okay, but just this once. ;-)>
| 209 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:14:54pm |
re: #198 Racer X
Neither does Obama. When he spoke with the CEO of BP he told him that.
Wait - no he didn't. Obama has never even talked with the CEO of BP. Wouldn't you call the guy up at least once and say "what the fuck"?
Meh this piece sums up my feelings pretty well......
[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com...]
| 210 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:14:56pm |
| 211 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:15:29pm |
re: #199 Bagua
I'm really at a loss as to what you're trying to argue, though.
None of what you cite would be allowed under British or US law, even if Sharia courts are/were allowed to arbitrate civil disputes.
| 212 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:16:56pm |
re: #59 Walter L. Newton
. .. And I now have an artist coop store in town (Conifer) who will be handling 3-4 of my pieces at a time for sale... nice to have a place to tell people to go to if they are interested in my designs.
Oh, Walter - that's great news!
Your pieces are beautiful, glad to hear you've found a place to market them.
And you could always check out opening a "store" at etsy.
| 213 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:17:19pm |
re: #206 Bagua
I read that, yes. They are making payments to fishermen, but BP is alleging that the Moratorium is not their decision and unnecessary.
That seems a bit odd to me. That Obama would want them to pay everyone.
| 214 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:18:00pm |
re: #197 Rightwingconspirator
*clears throat* Busted! No pie for you young lady!
And she bought them from me... (no just kidding)...
/
I have a few hundred free-formed Sleeping Beauty beads, like the "eyes" in that moon pendant picture I linked to. They look good on certain bracelets and necklaces, but I don't do much of that kind of work, my stuff (as you can see) has a primitive look about it... which I do on purpose... since I can't call it Native American styled, I call it southwest styled... I also use Anasazi pottery shards in my work, 5000 year old mummy beads and other odd items... I have some small 1/2 square Roman mosaic tiles from 300 or so AD England, I'm think of drilling and making a choker out of.
| 215 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:18:43pm |
re: #203 Walter L. Newton
Up here in Conifer Colorado, I can get Bradley gas for 2.48 right now, and that's a good price, since most of the gas up in the hills here sells at a 10-15 cent premium, both due to the tourist trade and the fact that it probably costs them a few extra to get it up into the hills.
Here in L.A. Arco (B.P) has the cheapest price around, $2.95. Kinda chaps my hide but money is money. We were thinking of buying a midsized truck but I don't know now what with whats happening in the gulf how the heck are we going to be able to afford the gas if it climbs to over $6.00 a gallon? Maybe we should just wait and get a small car for now and get the truck later. That would meant we couldn't go to the range for quite a while.
| 216 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:18:54pm |
Pregame story..The hoopster household has another guest...
This is a true story...Every springtime the Canadian Geese pass through Indiana..It is a mess.. Geese everywhere and they poop on absolutely everything...Whatever they are a pain in the ass but you put up with it...
I have a Duck that has decided to hang out in the pool...He got left behind and he just hangs out...He swims in the pool while Winston runs around the outside chasing him and the duck knows Winston isn't going to jump into the pool after a month....
I talk to him from the deck and he really seems to enjoy it here.. He won't go away...It's pretty cool...
| 217 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:19:19pm |
re: #199 Bagua
Note that all four branches of Sunni Islam not only forbid homosexuality but actively advocate punishing it. The only real dispute is whether it should be the death penalty or a beating.
Shia Islam of course hangs homosexuals in the streets of Iran. Let's not be judgmental seems to be the response I have received.
We are not tolerant of offensive prohibitions of homosexuality in some Christian groups and So-Cons, I'm not sure Islam deserves this courtesy or rates a comparison to Orthodox Judaism.
We know were this leads because the Saudi Theocracy is the head of Sunni Islam and the protector of it key mosques and laws. Not a very happy place for gays and women it appears.
Adult Muslims pray facing Saudi Arabia five times a day and a visit there to worship is considered a religious obligation for Muslim males.
Iran, the Shia theocracy and head of Shia Islam, well they are a bit more harsh hanging even Muslim homosexuals in the streets.
Let's not be judgemental here? Just like Jewish Law?
| 218 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:19:48pm |
re: #216 HoosierHoops
Pregame story..The hoopster household has another guest...
This is a true story...Every springtime the Canadian Geese pass through Indiana..It is a mess.. Geese everywhere and they poop on absolutely everything...Whatever they are a pain in the ass but you put up with it...
I have a Duck that has decided to hang out in the pool...He got left behind and he just hangs out...He swims in the pool while Winston runs around the outside chasing him and the duck knows Winston isn't going to jump into the pool after a month...
I talk to him from the deck and he really seems to enjoy it here.. He won't go away...It's pretty cool...
I got Black Widow spider friends in the shed...
| 219 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:20:04pm |
re: #27 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
-Douglas Adams
I prefer Futurama's "primitive dirtball inhabited by psychotic apes."
| 221 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:20:18pm |
re: #209 jamesfirecat
Meh this piece sums up my feelings pretty well...
[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com...]
Heh. Copout.
Why would he take time out of his day to give an interview, talk tough and say he was going to kick someone's ass, then say he didn't think it would be valuable to speak to them directly?
Copout.
Talk tough, but not with - at.
| 222 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:20:49pm |
re: #197 Rightwingconspirator
*clears throat* Busted! No pie for you young lady!
But, but, but Honey I bought them when I was working *Whine*!
| 223 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:21:10pm |
re: #194 Racer X
5k, 12k, 30k - the exact amount leaking per day doesn't matter. That is a shitload of oil they need to clean up.
I heard today that Obama wants BP to pay the salaries of all those employees that HE has told can no longer work pulling oil out of the ground. True?
Sen. Mary Landrieu (D., La.), said that if the moratorium "lasts very much longer than a few months, it could potentially wreak economic havoc on this region that exceeds the havoc wreaked by the rig itself."Mr. Salazar insisted that "the importance of the jobs that are at stake here has been very much on the mind of the president and my mind as well." He also promised Ms. Landrieu that the Obama administration would make BP pay salaries of oil-services workers who lose their jobs due to the effects of the oil spill.
Ms. Landrieu asked Mr. Salazar that if "the oil-services companies have to either go out of business or take bankruptcy or lay off classes of workers, are you going to ask BP to pick up their salaries and to make them whole?"
Mr. Salazar replied: "The answer to that is yes, we will."
Lotta good that's going to do, BP is not exactly keeping up with the claims people are making.
| 224 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:21:13pm |
re: #217 Bagua
Again, who are you arguing with? Nobody is equating the two forms of law; they're obviously different.
| 225 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:22:36pm |
re: #212 reine.de.tout
Oh, Walter - that's great news!
Your pieces are beautiful, glad to hear you've found a place to market them.And you could always check out opening a "store" at etsy.
Yes... I may look into that... I bookmarked that the other day, it was you who gave it to me... wasn't it.
Oh... and thanks for the compliment. This is something I use to do before I got divorced 6 and more years ago, and I had to sell all my large equipment, no room in a small apartment, and you can't go grinding and cutting rocks in a small enclosure.
It wasn't until a month or so ago, I finally had a few extra dollars to buy a small used grinding/polishing machine, what's called a flat lap, and I have been having a wonderful time cutting again.
A lot of my raw material I've had, just sitting and waiting for me to get the machinery I needed.
Thanks again... did your gastropods come yet? I mailed them Tuesday morning.
| 226 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:23:57pm |
| 227 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:24:01pm |
re: #225 Walter L. Newton
Yes... I may look into that... I bookmarked that the other day, it was you who gave it to me... wasn't it.
Oh... and thanks for the compliment. This is something I use to do before I got divorced 6 and more years ago, and I had to sell all my large equipment, no room in a small apartment, and you can't go grinding and cutting rocks in a small enclosure.
It wasn't until a month or so ago, I finally had a few extra dollars to buy a small used grinding/polishing machine, what's called a flat lap, and I have been having a wonderful time cutting again.
A lot of my raw material I've had, just sitting and waiting for me to get the machinery I needed.
Thanks again... did your gastropods come yet? I mailed them Tuesday morning.
No, they should be here tomorrow, maybe the next day.
| 228 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:24:22pm |
re: #211 Obdicut
I'm really at a loss as to what you're trying to argue, though.
None of what you cite would be allowed under British or US law, even if Sharia courts are/were allowed to arbitrate civil disputes.
The Islamists are doing their best to impose Sharia law on other Muslims and even non-Muslims in their communities. They take advantage of the cover given them by liberals who have the sorts of attitudes I am challenging.
The result is the oppression of women, gays and non-believers within their communities and their intention in not simple "arbitration", they are using this to get the camels nose in the tent.
| 229 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:24:23pm |
re: #218 Varek Raith
I got Black Widow spider friends in the shed...
Last year when I posted here about using 6 cans of wasp spray in the barn in a losing battle...
They own the barn...I don't mess with them and they let me live...
| 230 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:25:16pm |
re: #223 reine.de.tout
Lotta good that's going to do, BP is not exactly keeping up with the claims people are making.
Wow.
I'm not gonna defend BP - they totally screwed up and they need to pay.
But the white house put a moratorium in place - not just on BP but everyone. Now they want BP to pay for all those people - competitors employees - because of a white house moratorium?
Those other oil drilling outfits may be perfectly capable of safely extracting oil.
| 231 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:25:26pm |
re: #228 Bagua
Okay, there really is no discussing this issue with you, is there?
| 232 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:25:32pm |
re: #221 Racer X
Heh. Copout.
Why would he take time out of his day to give an interview, talk tough and say he was going to kick someone's ass, then say he didn't think it would be valuable to speak to them directly?
Copout.
Talk tough, but not with - at.
What has BP done to prove they've been worth talking to lately?
| 233 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:26:36pm |
re: #224 Obdicut
Again, who are you arguing with? Nobody is equating the two forms of law; they're obviously different.
Not with you on that thread, I posted that I didn't disagree with your comment towards the end.
| 234 |
Gus Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:26:48pm |
Alas, we can see the second planet of the 76 planets of the greater Galactic Confederacy!
All hail Xenu!
//
| 235 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:26:54pm |
re: #215 Dragon_Lady
Here in L.A. Arco (B.P) has the cheapest price around, $2.95. Kinda chaps my hide but money is money. We were thinking of buying a midsized truck but I don't know now what with whats happening in the gulf how the heck are we going to be able to afford the gas if it climbs to over $6.00 a gallon? Maybe we should just wait and get a small car for now and get the truck later. That would meant we couldn't go to the range for quite a while.
That's one of the reasons I decided to take the cashiers job up here, 4 miles away... it's part time, just enough for me to pay my part of the financial obligations, and sometimes have some fun money.
My car is 12 years old, gets 35-38 miles to a gallon, and only has 85,000 miles on it, so, I'm comfortable with the transportation right now.
The only thing that would get me to go downhill every day to work is if I could finally get back to doing what my career was, programming, other than that, I'll stick to this... the cashier job... work is work, and I'm enjoying it. Like the employees and most of the customers...
Can you imagine Walter being nice to crappy customers at a supermarket?
| 236 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:27:49pm |
re: #231 JasonA
Okay, there really is no discussing this issue with you, is there?
Explain please? We were discussing "this issue" then and are doing so now.
| 237 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:29:16pm |
re: #228 Bagua
The Islamists are doing their best to impose Sharia law on other Muslims and even non-Muslims in their communities. They take advantage of the cover given them by liberals who have the sorts of attitudes I am challenging.
The result is the oppression of women, gays and non-believers within their communities and their intention in not simple "arbitration", they are using this to get the camels nose in the tent.
How are they imposing Sharia law on non-Muslims, exactly?
What sort of attitude are you challenging? Nobody is saying that Sharia law is the same as any other form of law. Obviously all forms of law are different.
What was being said was that if you allow one religion to have separate courts (still under the jurisdiction and observance of the larger legal system and not able to violate its laws) then you should allow other religions the same privilege.
If, for example, a Sharia arbitration 'court' was set up in the US, but they did not take the testimony of women with the same weight as men, that would be illegal, and not allowed. So I don't see what it is that you're saying is occurring.
Can you explain how Muslims are enforcing Sharia law on non-Muslims, in the US or Britain? I'm not that familiar with Britain's legal system, so I can accept that maybe there's some way it diminishes protection when you engage with one of these courts.
| 238 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:29:18pm |
re: #232 jamesfirecat
What has BP done to prove they've been worth talking to lately?
Do you think it normal to not have a conversation with the CEO?
A lot is at stake. This is a major disaster. Maybe summon the guy to the white house for a chat? Talk about all those BP gas stations nationwide? Profits and loss, fines and penalties and stuff. Get your ass in gear and make it right - right now - or else motherfucker? While you look him in the eye?
Man I would enjoy that conversation.
| 239 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:29:43pm |
re: #236 Bagua
Explain please? We were discussing "this issue" then and are doing so now.
Uh huh. And you're trying to make the case that British criminal law will be influenced to the point where homosexuals are dragged through the streets.
| 240 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:30:59pm |
Now I'm really worried alert:
'No sign of war with Hizbullah soon'
By YAAKOV KATZ
06/11/2010 02:26
Exclusive: UNIFIL chief says situation in Lebanon far more stable now.
UNIFIL has not found any evidence of Hizbullah military activity and smuggling or the presence of guerilla fighters in its area of operations in Southern Lebanon, the commander of the multinational peacekeeping force, Maj.-Gen. Alberto Asarta Cuevas, has told The Jerusalem Post in an exclusive first interview to the Israeli press.He said the situation in Lebanon today was far more stable than it was before war broke out in July 2006 and that, contrary to some predictions in Israel, there was no reason to be concerned that war would break out between Israel and Hizbullah this summer.
[Link: www.jpost.com...]
Oh sure, I'll soon take UNIFIL's word over Israel's any time.
| 241 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:31:10pm |
re: #230 Racer X
Wow.
I'm not gonna defend BP - they totally screwed up and they need to pay.
But the white house put a moratorium in place - not just on BP but everyone. Now they want BP to pay for all those people - competitors employees - because of a white house moratorium?
Those other oil drilling outfits may be perfectly capable of safely extracting oil.
Agreed. There's even talk that it's going to sink the company....
Is BP headed for Bankruptcy?
BP has reportedly already spent $1 billion on the oil spill, but I would bet that very little of that is clean-up so far. Much of that is probably the cost of the rig and trying to stop the leak. Drilling the two relief wells can't be cheap. At the end of 2009, BP had a book value (the total of its assets minus liabilities) of $102 billion. But very little of that was cash, just $8 billion (now possibly $7 billion). What's more, $20 billion of BP's book value was made up of goodwill and intangible assets, accounting terms in part meant to signify the value of your brand. We can all probably agree that BP's goodwill now equals close to zero. Whether its stock will follow we will soon see.
I still own some BP stock. I figure it might be too late to bail out now but I'm seriously considering it.
| 242 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:31:42pm |
re: #238 Racer X
Do you think it normal to not have a conversation with the CEO?
A lot is at stake. This is a major disaster. Maybe summon the guy to the white house for a chat? Talk about all those BP gas stations nationwide? Profits and loss, fines and penalties and stuff. Get your ass in gear and make it right - right now - or else motherfucker? While you look him in the eye?
Man I would enjoy that conversation.
But until we've figured out how bad the problem is, something we won't know until the plug finally stops, we'd either be unfairly over penalizing BP or unfairly underselling the amount of damage they've done to the US if we try to fully figure out how much they owe us.
| 243 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:32:13pm |
re: #241 Killgore Trout
I still own some BP stock. I figure it might be too late to bail out now but I'm seriously considering it.
there is no way for BP to meet it's financial obligations and survive...they are toast
| 244 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:32:28pm |
re: #238 Racer X
Do you think it normal to not have a conversation with the CEO?
I don't think any of us have any clue what's 'normal' in an event of this scale.
| 245 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:34:18pm |
| 246 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:34:21pm |
re: #237 Obdicut
How are they imposing Sharia law on non-Muslims, exactly?
What sort of attitude are you challenging? Nobody is saying that Sharia law is the same as any other form of law. Obviously all forms of law are different.
What was being said was that if you allow one religion to have separate courts (still under the jurisdiction and observance of the larger legal system and not able to violate its laws) then you should allow other religions the same privilege.
If, for example, a Sharia arbitration 'court' was set up in the US, but they did not take the testimony of women with the same weight as men, that would be illegal, and not allowed. So I don't see what it is that you're saying is occurring.
Can you explain how Muslims are enforcing Sharia law on non-Muslims, in the US or Britain? I'm not that familiar with Britain's legal system, so I can accept that maybe there's some way it diminishes protection when you engage with one of these courts.
What's funny about this post is that a non-Muslim chose to go to a Sharia Court with his Muslim business partner because he had an advantage there since they allow oral agreements to be binding. He won. I'm not saying I'd choose to go to one, but it stands in contrast with the idea of people being forced into it.
| 247 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:36:24pm |
If I was king president I would have told the CEO to his face he was going to get his ass kicked. And not done it through the media. OK maybe invited the media to watch.
| 248 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:36:31pm |
re: #246 JasonA
What's funny about this post is that a non-Muslim chose to go to a Sharia Court with his Muslim business partner because he had an advantage there since they allow oral agreements to be binding. He won. I'm not saying I'd choose to go to one, but it stands in contrast with the idea of people being forced into it.
Good PR for the Muslim community, too. Oh no, it's insidious!
| 249 |
cliffster Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:36:59pm |
re: #238 Racer X
Do you think it normal to not have a conversation with the CEO?
A lot is at stake. This is a major disaster. Maybe summon the guy to the white house for a chat? Talk about all those BP gas stations nationwide? Profits and loss, fines and penalties and stuff. Get your ass in gear and make it right - right now - or else motherfucker? While you look him in the eye?
Man I would enjoy that conversation.
They should have had Hayward to the White House. They just should have. That being said, it's not that big a deal.
| 250 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:37:08pm |
re: #237 Obdicut
How are they imposing Sharia law on non-Muslims, exactly?
What sort of attitude are you challenging? Nobody is saying that Sharia law is the same as any other form of law. Obviously all forms of law are different.
What was being said was that if you allow one religion to have separate courts (still under the jurisdiction and observance of the larger legal system and not able to violate its laws) then you should allow other religions the same privilege.
If, for example, a Sharia arbitration 'court' was set up in the US, but they did not take the testimony of women with the same weight as men, that would be illegal, and not allowed. So I don't see what it is that you're saying is occurring.
Can you explain how Muslims are enforcing Sharia law on non-Muslims, in the US or Britain? I'm not that familiar with Britain's legal system, so I can accept that maybe there's some way it diminishes protection when you engage with one of these courts.
In order for foreign law to be recognized by the State, even if the parties agree, the foreign law must not be repugnant to the domestic law or the domestic public policy.
To the extent that Sharia Law engages in discrimination on the basis of sex or sexual orientation, it must not be recognized - even if the parties want it to be, because there is a greater value at stake...the public good and the integrity of the domestic law.
| 251 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:37:13pm |
re: #230 Racer X
Wow.
I'm not gonna defend BP - they totally screwed up and they need to pay.
But the white house put a moratorium in place - not just on BP but everyone. Now they want BP to pay for all those people - competitors employees - because of a white house moratorium?
Those other oil drilling outfits may be perfectly capable of safely extracting oil.
About that moratorium.
A subscription is required to read the whole thing at wsj.com
But it's in today's WSJ.com, "Drilling Bits of Fiction".
". . .Then on May 27th Mr. Obama announced a six-month deep water drilling ban, justifying it on the basis of Mr. Salazar's report, a top recommendation of which was the moratorium. To lend an air of technical authority, the report noted: "The recommendations contained in this report have been peer-reviewed by seven experts identified by the National Academy of Engineering."
That would be false, sir. In a scathing statement this week, the seven experts explained that the report draft they had reviewed did not include a six-month drilling moratorium. That was added only after they signed off. "The Secretary should be free to recommend whatever he thinks is correct, but he should not be free to use our names to justify his political decisions," wrote the seven in a letter to Gulf Coast politicians."
One of the seven is University of California at Berkeley engineering professor Bob Bea, who told the New Orleans Times Picayune "Moratorium was not a part of the report we consulted-advised-reviewed".
| 252 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:37:41pm |
re: #235 Walter L. Newton
That's one of the reasons I decided to take the cashiers job up here, 4 miles away... it's part time, just enough for me to pay my part of the financial obligations, and sometimes have some fun money.
My car is 12 years old, gets 35-38 miles to a gallon, and only has 85,000 miles on it, so, I'm comfortable with the transportation right now.
The only thing that would get me to go downhill every day to work is if I could finally get back to doing what my career was, programming, other than that, I'll stick to this... the cashier job... work is work, and I'm enjoying it. Like the employees and most of the customers...
Can you imagine Walter being nice to crappy customers at a supermarket?
This I know..You are a programmer...Wanna be a Millionaire next year?
Stop fucking around and start writing iPad Apps...
I have some good ideas....The ipad app that when it get's stolen you access a web site and sent the GPS data directly to the police for recovery...
Think iPad Walter and go big...I have dozens of ideas...
| 253 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:37:48pm |
re: #247 Racer X
If I was
kingpresident I would have told the CEO to his face he was going to get his ass kicked. And not done it through the media. OK maybe invited the media to watch.
The problem is, would that actually achieve something, or would it just be pointless ego stroking that we shouldn't be wasting time on?
The American people need to be able to tell the difference between style and substance, and I hope to G-d we prefer the later over the former.....
| 254 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:37:53pm |
re: #247 Racer X
If I was
kingpresident I would have told the CEO to his face he was going to get his ass kicked. And not done it through the media. OK maybe invited the media to watch.
I'd like to tell the CEO that personally, myself.
| 255 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:38:18pm |
re: #239 JasonA
Uh huh. And you're trying to make the case that British criminal law will be influenced to the point where homosexuals are dragged through the streets.
You miss the point. It is giving a stamp of approval for these vile practices that have no place in a modern society. Everything that strengthens their position leads to more demands and an increasingly radicalised community.
I linked to London preachers actively pushing that agenda.
All homosexuals should be stoned to deat, says Muslim preacher of hate
In tolerant Amsterdam, a place where Gays have enjoyed freedoms and protections, Gay bashing by Muslims is a growing menace.
I don't understand why we can be so correctly vocal in calling out Christians who are intolerant and which to impose their morality on others, yet there is all this spinning to absolve Muslims from any criticism.
| 256 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:38:37pm |
re: #250 Spare O'Lake
Again: No part of Sharia law that contravened US law would possibly be allowed. So, as I said, to the extent Sharia law engaged in discrimination, it would not be recognized.
| 257 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:38:46pm |
re: #249 cliffster
They should have had Hayward to the White House. They just should have. That being said, it's not that big a deal.
Thank you for being so understanding (non sarcasm), I hope that Charles won't have to do an Outrageous Outrage post over this....
| 258 |
cliffster Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:38:54pm |
re: #247 Racer X
If I was
kingpresident I would have told the CEO to his face he was going to get his ass kicked. And not done it through the media. OK maybe invited the media to watch.
| 259 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:39:46pm |
re: #255 Bagua
I don't understand why we can be so correctly vocal in calling out Christians who are intolerant and which to impose their morality on others, yet there is all this spinning to absolve Muslims from any criticism.
What are you talking about? What action of a Sharia court should we be criticizing? Allowing oral agreements to be bonding?
You miss the point. It is giving a stamp of approval for these vile practices that have no place in a modern society. Everything that strengthens their position leads to more demands and an increasingly radicalised community.
What is giving a stamp of approval? For which practices?
| 260 |
cliffster Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:40:05pm |
re: #252 HoosierHoops
This I know..You are a programmer...Wanna be a Millionaire next year?
Stop fucking around and start writing iPad Apps...
I have some good ideas...The ipad app that when it get's stolen you access a web site and sent the GPS data directly to the police for recovery...
Think iPad Walter and go big...I have dozens of ideas...
that's a fucking good idea
| 261 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:40:27pm |
re: #247 Racer X
If I was
kingpresident I would have told the CEO to his face he was going to get his ass kicked. And not done it through the media. OK maybe invited the media to watch.
If you were president, I think the most common criticism of you would be that you should occasionally put on a pair of pants.
| 262 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:41:05pm |
re: #253 jamesfirecat
The problem is, would that actually achieve something, or would it just be pointless ego stroking that we shouldn't be wasting time on?
Like announcing to a talk show host you were going to kick someone's ass? Like that kind of ego stroking?
| 263 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:41:44pm |
re: #243 albusteve
there is no way for BP to meet it's financial obligations and survive...they are toast
Yeah, financially I'm not sure what the best move is for me. Do I hold on to the stock in hopes that they get bought out before declaring bankruptcy? I'm only down about 10% on my money I really don't want to ride this into the ground.
| 264 |
Dancing along the light of day Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:41:47pm |
re: #174 Jimmah
Hi Jimmah, Ice too!
*waves*
| 265 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:41:49pm |
re: #261 Obdicut
If you were president, I think the most common criticism of you would be that you should occasionally put on a pair of pants.
No, that would be a strength.
| 266 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:42:10pm |
| 267 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:42:20pm |
re: #255 Bagua
You miss the point. It is giving a stamp of approval for these vile practices that have no place in a modern society. Everything that strengthens their position leads to more demands and an increasingly radicalised community.
I linked to London preachers actively pushing that agenda.
All homosexuals should be stoned to deat, says Muslim preacher of hate
In tolerant Amsterdam, a place where Gays have enjoyed freedoms and protections, Gay bashing by Muslims is a growing menace.
I don't understand why we can be so correctly vocal in calling out Christians who are intolerant and which to impose their morality on others, yet there is all this spinning to absolve Muslims from any criticism.
Bullshit. I've wasted plenty of words on this board criticizing Islamic practices. I'm trying to interpret the law as I see it in Britain right now and for that reason I see nothing wrong with this. Tell them to change the standards for arbitration and I'll go along with it.
| 268 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:43:06pm |
re: #262 Racer X
Like announcing to a talk show host you were going to kick someone's ass? Like that kind of ego stroking?
This is the question he was asked...
"Critics are now talking about your style, which is the first time I've heard that in a long time. They're saying here is a guy who likes to be known as cool and calm and collected, and this isn't the time for cool, calm and collected. This is not the time to meet with experts and advisers; this is a time to spend more time in the Gulf and -- I never thought I'd say this to a president -- but kick some butt. And I don't mean it to be funny. "
How dare his response deal with if he intended to kick someone's ass or not!
| 269 |
cliffster Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:44:24pm |
re: #263 Killgore Trout
Yeah, financially I'm not sure what the best move is for me. Do I hold on to the stock in hopes that they get bought out before declaring bankruptcy? I'm only down about 10% on my money I really don't want to ride this into the ground.
I would hold onto it. If it gets creamed, it'll make for a nice write-off. Also, I have heard that even with what's going on, their daily P&L is still in the positive.
| 270 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:45:10pm |
re: #263 Killgore Trout
Yeah, financially I'm not sure what the best move is for me. Do I hold on to the stock in hopes that they get bought out before declaring bankruptcy? I'm only down about 10% on my money I really don't want to ride this into the ground.
From what I heard they're trading well below what they're assets are worth. I don't think I'd sell. My 2 cents.
| 271 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:46:02pm |
re: #252 HoosierHoops
This I know..You are a programmer...Wanna be a Millionaire next year?
Stop fucking around and start writing iPad Apps...
I have some good ideas...The ipad app that when it get's stolen you access a web site and sent the GPS data directly to the police for recovery...
Think iPad Walter and go big...I have dozens of ideas...
I know, you'll say this is a cop out, but it's not. I'm very happy doing what I am doing right now. The only thing that could make me happier is a full time programming job. But I am a decent Oracle programmer and a Visual Foxpro guru... I'm really not interested in any new platforms.
I get some of my programming chops in off and on. I do work from home for a contractor who supports some legacy apps at Kaiser here in Denver.
I was just working on some code just now when you mentioned the Ipad.
Between the part time work schedule, my girlfriend, "paradise" as you call my neighborhood, my lapidary work, my plays... well, I have enough irons in the fire... I'm really content 99 percent of the time... and no pressure really.
| 272 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:46:59pm |
re: #198 Racer X
Neither does Obama. When he spoke with the CEO of BP he told him that.
Wait - no he didn't. Obama has never even talked with the CEO of BP. Wouldn't you call the guy up at least once and say "what the fuck"?
Or at least to arrange the ass-kicking.
/
| 273 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:47:09pm |
What are we now - 50 days into this thing?
No one has been summoned to the white house. No phone call to the top guy. Man, it just is bugging me now. This is frikkin horrible to our economy - which was screwed before.
I keep thinking about this:
You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.
- Rahm Emanuel
| 274 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:47:19pm |
re: #239 JasonA
Uh huh. And you're trying to make the case that British criminal law will be influenced to the point where homosexuals are dragged through the streets.
Yes.
Gay Londoners see attacks rise
Time Out investigates the recent dramatic increase in attacks on gay Londoners and venues in the East End.
'We were on our way to the George and Dragon [in Shoreditch]. One Asian guy started shouting “Gay guys! Are you fucking gay?”
Suddenly there were ten of them. They surrounded me. When they were just about to beat me up, a car stopped and some more Asian guys came out of the car and shouted, 'It's not worth it, they are just “batty boys”. So they let us go, but they still threw a couple of bottles at us.'
...
Another entry reads, 'A car rushed by and the guys in the car shouted: “You faggots, dirty bastards.”' The site details dozens of other accounts of verbal abuse, as well as stories of victims being pelted with bottles, stones and eggs.
In one particularly vicious incident the George and Dragon was stormed by a gang of Asian boys
"Asian" is used to indicate Muslim youths of Pakistani descent.
| 275 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:47:28pm |
Hey honcos! Google just informed me that my foundation has been approved for free Google ads!
This was not a spam, I applied for the program earlier this year. Now I just have to read their 36-page manual on creating my non-profit Google Ads account and sign up.
| 276 |
wrenchwench Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:48:21pm |
re: #271 Walter L. Newton
I'm really content 99 percent of the time... and no pressure really.
And that's why I can imagine you being nice to crappy customers at a supermarket.
| 277 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:48:33pm |
re: #273 Racer X
What are we now - 50 days into this thing?
No one has been summoned to the white house. No phone call to the top guy. Man, it just is bugging me now. This is frikkin horrible to our economy - which was screwed before.
I keep thinking about this:
Would you be happier if Obama was using this to ram down some Carbon Emission counting car with MPG below 30 banning energy bill?
| 278 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:49:13pm |
re: #274 Bagua
"Asian" is used to indicate Muslim youths of Pakistani descent.
How do you connect that with Sharia courts arbitrating contract disputes, again?
And Asian is also used for youths of Indian descent, by the way.
| 279 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:49:44pm |
re: #213 Racer X
That seems a bit odd to me. That Obama would want them to pay everyone.
Spread the wealth!
/
| 281 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:50:47pm |
re: #256 Obdicut
Again: No part of Sharia law that contravened US law would possibly be allowed. So, as I said, to the extent Sharia law engaged in discrimination, it would not be recognized.
If the parties agree to be bound by Sharia rules of commerce or evidence which are completely at odds with the domestic law, what then? For example, if an attempt to charge interest to a Muslim is unenforceable under Sharia, should the domestic court enforce a discharge the debt even if the borrower had agreed to pay the interest? Or what if Sharia law allows oral agreements to be proven in circumstances where the domestic law does not, should the State sanction such results? By recognizing and enforcing parallel and mutually exclusive legal systems, social and commercial cohesion and certainty would be compromised.
| 282 |
Dancing along the light of day Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:51:51pm |
re: #263 Killgore Trout
Do you have a good broker? Call & ask!
| 283 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:52:58pm |
I just think this was another missed opportunity by Obama. Call the guy into the principals office - early on. Spank him in public. Show the world who is in charge.
50 frikkin days?
These oil giants must be snickering under their breath that Obama is their personal bitch.
| 284 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:53:36pm |
re: #281 Spare O'Lake
Or what if Sharia law allows oral agreements to be proven in circumstances where the domestic law does not, should the State sanction such results?
Yes-- that's kind of the point of having arbitration of a different flavor than normal law.
What is the exact problem you have with that, when both parties agree to it?
Would you have the same problem with a Beth Din court allowing oral agreements as valid? I have no clue if they did, but I think they do-- oral agreements are valid in the US, so it's kind of a moot point here.
| 285 |
cliffster Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:53:50pm |
re: #280 Obdicut
I hope it benefits you greatly!
hey buddy - tick tock. the days of Free Obdi are quickly coming to a close. you've made sure the place you're honeymooning has high-speed right? We'll be expecting you to drop in a few times a day...
| 286 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:54:27pm |
re: #276 wrenchwench
And that's why I can imagine you being nice to crappy customers at a supermarket.
I've learned something working at the supermarket, something about problematic customers... they want attention, and if you give that to them, if you let them rant and rage, make a scene and then bend over backwards to give them anything they want to shut them up, they will just do it again.
But, if you are polite with them, get right to their problem, and solve it, without giving them ANY recognition for their tantrum, not getting into any conversation on all the "side" issues, just get right to the point, then you deny them the thing they are most looking for... attention... it stops them cold... and at the same time, you're not being rude or uncooperative...
| 287 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:54:28pm |
re: #283 Racer X
Wow, this really has you going.
Again: I don't think that you, or I, really are competent to judge goings-on at that level. I don't think it makes Obama look like the oil companies bitch. I think if he was assuring BP they wouldn't have to pay anything, that would make him look like their bitch.
| 288 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:54:37pm |
re: #260 cliffster
that's a fucking good idea
You have no idea....
My home office is in Silly Cone Valley...
All technology is about an idea..
Hope you are well
| 289 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:54:44pm |
P.Tatchell warns of poss muslim fundamentalist attacks on gays...
Gays get death threats from Islamists
London - 18 July 2005
"Gay venues could be bombed by Islamic terrorists. All gay bars and
clubs should introduce bag and body searches. Muslim fundamentalists
have a violent hatred of lesbians and gay men. They believe we should
be killed. Our community could be their next target. This is no time
for complacency."The grim warning comes from Peter Tatchell of the gay human rights
group OutRage! in the wake of the 7 July terror attack on London.Three of OutRage!'s leading members have received repeated death
threats from Islamic fundamentalists in recent weeks and months....
Tatchell, Lock and Saeed have been told they are on a "hit list" and
are going to be "beheaded" and "chopped up", in accordance with
"Islamic law"....
The same Islamic fundamentalists have also threatened "attacks" on the
whole gay community: "Just you wait, you'll see", they warned Peter
Tatchell in a chilling late night phone call. The caller said: "We are
going to punish you all…The punishment for sodomy is death."
| 290 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:55:13pm |
re: #285 cliffster
hey buddy - tick tock. the days of Free Obdi are quickly coming to a close. you've made sure the place you're honeymooning has high-speed right? We'll be expecting you to drop in a few times a day...
No, the place we're honeymooning doesn't even have electricity. A nice little cabin in Big Sur. Just us, three days away from the world.
Looking the hell forward to it.
I am going to post pictures at some point, though.
| 291 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:55:27pm |
re: #283 Racer X
I just think this was another missed opportunity by Obama. Call the guy into the principals office - early on. Spank him in public. Show the world who is in charge.
50 frikkin days?
These oil giants must be snickering under their breath that Obama is their personal bitch.
So he's according to your 194 both preventing them from doing any more drilling, and making them pay those people who by his orders can't do any work for the company either.
And yet he's their bitch....
Guess Obama tops from the bottom....
| 292 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:55:58pm |
re: #263 Killgore Trout
Yeah, financially I'm not sure what the best move is for me. Do I hold on to the stock in hopes that they get bought out before declaring bankruptcy? I'm only down about 10% on my money I really don't want to ride this into the ground.
In the current market being down 10% on any stock isn't that bad a position to be in. What is the upside to holding BP into the future? I'm honestly asking, as far as I know there could be one, it's just not obvious to me.
| 293 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:56:23pm |
re: #269 cliffster
I would hold onto it. If it gets creamed, it'll make for a nice write-off. Also, I have heard that even with what's going on, their daily P&L is still in the positive.
The also increased their quarterly dividend to something like 11.5%. That seems nice but companies often do that when they're in serious trouble to prop up their stock price.
| 294 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:56:26pm |
re: #289 Bagua
Yes, Muslim fundamentalists are terrible on gay rights, absolutely evil on the subject, and should be opposed at every turn when they try to influence legislation or otherwise harass gays.
What does that have to do with the conversation we're having about arbitration courts, though? If I was a gay dude, I wouldn't agree to the dispute being arbitrated in a sharia court, and it wouldn't be.
| 295 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:56:50pm |
Unless you really do have nefarious reasons for letting this thing go on and on and on. Like cap and trade. And punish BP until they go bankrupt. And other oil companies as well.
Destroy the "drill, baby drill" crowd. Who cares about those folks down on the gulf. Bush never did either.
You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.
- Rahm Emanuel
| 296 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:56:54pm |
re: #292 goddamnedfrank
It could actually potentially become worthless except as a capital loss to offset other capital gains.
| 297 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:57:36pm |
re: #282 Floral Giraffe
Do you have a good broker? Call & ask!
He's broker than me
/old joke
No, I do my own investing. This is one of those times I do wish I had a broker.
| 298 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:57:53pm |
re: #295 Racer X
Yeah, it's probably a nefarious plot. That's what you can read into Obama not talking directly to the CEO of BP. That logic is totally straightforward, and would fit nicely on a chalkboard.
| 299 |
cliffster Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:58:35pm |
re: #288 HoosierHoops
You have no idea...
My home office is in Silly Cone Valley...
All technology is about an idea..
Hope you are well
I'm great, thank you for asking.. I hope you are too.
I've thought about tinkering around with iphone app dev but I'm just not an apple guy and you have to be all-in on the apple thing to do it. If you could run an Apple VM I'd probably do that and install the SDK there. Probably a good idea - you're right, the app store gives you potential for instant volume.
| 300 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:58:49pm |
| 301 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:59:23pm |
re: #295 Racer X
Unless you really do have nefarious reasons for letting this thing go on and on and on. Like cap and trade. And punish BP until they go bankrupt. And other oil companies as well.
Destroy the "drill, baby drill" crowd. Who cares about those folks down on the gulf. Bush never did either.
So wait, now you're saying that Obama is not doing anything and just letting the oil pump and pump and pump until it destroys (thousands, millions?) of Americans ways of life so that people will get so fed up with oil that he'll be able to pass some green bills?
Dude, you're wandering into Beck territory if you ask me...
| 302 |
wrenchwench Thu, Jun 10, 2010 4:59:48pm |
re: #286 Walter L. Newton
I've learned something working at the supermarket, something about problematic customers... they want attention, and if you give that to them, if you let them rant and rage, make a scene and then bend over backwards to give them anything they want to shut them up, they will just do it again.
But, if you are polite with them, get right to their problem, and solve it, without giving them ANY recognition for their tantrum, not getting into any conversation on all the "side" issues, just get right to the point, then you deny them the thing they are most looking for... attention... it stops them cold... and at the same time, you're not being rude or uncooperative...
I had an example of that yesterday. A customer wanted to tell me the whole story of her disappointment with my competition. I (politely, I think) cut her off with "What do you want ME to do?" She ended up taking her problem back to them to fix what they had screwed up. Saved me more time than she would have been worth.
The Public. Can't live with 'em, can't make a living without 'em.
| 303 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:00:27pm |
See you Lizards later. I hope you all have a nice evening and Keep Laughing!
| 304 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:01:53pm |
re: #298 Obdicut
He left out where the administration inflitrated BP, and got the managers in there who skimped on the safety checks.
| 305 |
Dancing along the light of day Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:03:30pm |
re: #297 Killgore Trout
You want me to call mine, for you?
| 307 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:04:43pm |
re: #301 jamesfirecat
So wait, now you're saying that Obama is not doing anything and just letting the oil pump and pump and pump until it destroys (thousands, millions?) of Americans ways of life so that people will get so fed up with oil that he'll be able to pass some green bills?
Dude, you're wandering into Beck territory if you ask me...
Yes. I really do believe all of that.
OK not really. Just pissed off at the whole situation. Aarmchair quaterbacking on the prez.
| 308 |
bratwurst Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:05:23pm |
Ifre: #283 Racer X
These oil giants must be snickering under their breath that Obama is their personal bitch.
What were they snickering under their breath when Dick Cheney invited them to closed door National Energy Policy Development Group meetings?
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
| 309 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:05:28pm |
re: #284 Obdicut
Yes-- that's kind of the point of having arbitration of a different flavor than normal law.
What is the exact problem you have with that, when both parties agree to it?
Would you have the same problem with a Beth Din court allowing oral agreements as valid? I have no clue if they did, but I think they do-- oral agreements are valid in the US, so it's kind of a moot point here.
Insofar as I am aware Beth Dins are meticulously careful not to render decisions which seriously conflict with domestic law. The purpose of arbitration is to provide an alternate dispute resolution system to the civil court system...but NOT to provide a way for parties to choose a repugnant legal system and then expect the domestic system to rubber stamp the result.
| 310 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:05:30pm |
re: #307 Racer X
Yes. I really do believe all of that.
OK not really. Just pissed off at the whole situation. Aarmchair quaterbacking on the prez.
Screen Beret. :P
| 311 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:06:11pm |
re: #299 cliffster
I'm great, thank you for asking.. I hope you are too.
I've thought about tinkering around with iphone app dev but I'm just not an apple guy and you have to be all-in on the apple thing to do it. If you could run an Apple VM I'd probably do that and install the SDK there. Probably a good idea - you're right, the app store gives you potential for instant volume.
It's always the forward thinking programmers using the Latest SDK that end up Millionaires..
The core is the idea...You have to have a good idea....IMO
| 312 |
Mich-again Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:06:24pm |
re: #302 wrenchwench
I've been the guy standing in line behind an idiot complaining at the cashier more than once and I'll jump in and tell them to shut their yap, its not her fault and you're holding up the line. And when the cashier is too timid to refuse the guy with 30 items in the 12 or fewer express lane, I'll ask whats up with that buddy? Can't you count to 12?
I live for that stuff. Going after the jerks who think rules are for the other people. ha.
| 313 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:07:25pm |
re: #309 Spare O'Lake
As far as I can tell, you guys argument comes down to 'They're different because jewish tradition is good and islamic is tradition is bad!'
That pretty close?
| 314 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:07:35pm |
re: #307 Racer X
Yes. I really do believe all of that.
OK not really. Just pissed off at the whole situation. Aarmchair quaterbacking on the prez.
Okay well try to keep it positive with suggestions of what he could do rather than speculations about how he's an evil genius who places more interest in his political agenda than the lives/livelyhoods of the people who elected him.
///Wait a minute! [Link: en.wikipedia.org...] If you ignore Florida as a flip floopity outlier, all the states that are being splashed with oil voted for McCain! This oil spill is Obama's plan to punish them for doing that! My gods its way craftier than the FEMA re-education camps!
| 315 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:07:47pm |
re: #294 Obdicut
Yes, Muslim fundamentalists are terrible on gay rights, absolutely evil on the subject, and should be opposed at every turn when they try to influence legislation or otherwise harass gays.
What does that have to do with the conversation we're having about arbitration courts, though? If I was a gay dude, I wouldn't agree to the dispute being arbitrated in a sharia court, and it wouldn't be.
What if family, religious and social pressures were so overwhelming that you had no effective choice but to agree. That is what could be expected in Islamist neighbourhoods.
| 316 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:08:08pm |
re: #309 Spare O'Lake
Insofar as I am aware Beth Dins are meticulously careful not to render decisions which seriously conflict with domestic law. The purpose of arbitration is to provide an alternate dispute resolution system to the civil court system...
So, um, if they're not rendering decisions different from the domestic law, what's the point?
but NOT to provide a way for parties to choose a repugnant legal system and then expect the domestic system to rubber stamp the result.
And, again, anything really repugnant would be illegal, so this is not a strong point.
| 317 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:08:11pm |
re: #311 HoosierHoops
How much does apple's sdk cost? They're pretty stingy about control.
| 318 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:08:57pm |
re: #294 Obdicut
Yes, Muslim fundamentalists are terrible on gay rights, absolutely evil on the subject, and should be opposed at every turn when they try to influence legislation or otherwise harass gays.
What does that have to do with the conversation we're having about arbitration courts, though? If I was a gay dude, I wouldn't agree to the dispute being arbitrated in a sharia court, and it wouldn't be.
I have made that clear already. The fundamentalists are the ones pushing the Sharia courts, and increasing control of Muslim community centers and places of worship. Everything that increases their power increases the threat.
Places like London and Amsterdam which encourage their Muslim community to have "their own culture" and make accommodation for the demands of the fundamentalists seeking Sharia are seeing a dramatic rise in these problems. Places like the US where the Muslims are encouraged to integrate and join in the American culture, do not have these increasing problems.
Beyond that, I can not help you Obdicut, because when you have decided to oppose my comments you focus on redefining what I say into a straw man you can knock down and play at being befuddled. As I've never seen you spin on behalf of Christian So-Cons trying to gain legal acceptance for their laws and codes, quite the opposite in fact, I'm confused why you and others are so desperate to spin for the Islamists.
| 319 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:09:01pm |
re: #315 Spare O'Lake
What if family, religious and social pressures were so overwhelming that you had no effective choice but to agree. That is what could be expected in Islamist neighbourhoods.
Well, then why would you even be going to a court in the first place? Wouldn't it go down like the girl being forced to confess to the rape in church?
Again: It is better that these things be out in the light, under public observation.
| 320 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:11:00pm |
re: #314 jamesfirecat
Ya know, I was totally calmed back down and then you posted that!
| 321 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:11:20pm |
re: #304 windsagio
He left out where the administration inflitrated BP, and got the managers in there who skimped on the safety checks.
The US governmental regulator, MMS, did in fact approve in writing of the steps which led to the disaster. There was a clear regulatory failure as well as the failure by BP.
| 322 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:12:06pm |
| 323 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:12:46pm |
re: #318 Bagua
I have made that clear already. The fundamentalists are the ones pushing the Sharia courts, and increasing control of Muslim community centers and places of worship. Everything that increases their power increases the threat.
You didn't really make that clear; I mean, you made it clear you think that, but not that that's true, that all the Sharia courts are pushed by fundamentalists. If you can show fundamentalist connection to a Sharia court, I'll object like hell to the court.
Places like London and Amsterdam which encourage their Muslim community to have "their own culture" and make accommodation for the demands of the fundamentalists seeking Sharia are seeing a dramatic rise in these problems. Places like the US where the Muslims are encouraged to integrate and join in the American culture, do not have these increasing problems.
US has arbitration laws that would completely allow an Imam to act as an arbitrator, though.
Beyond that, I can not help you Obdicut, because when you have decided to oppose my comments you focus on redefining what I say into a straw man you can knock down and play at being befuddled. As I've never seen you spin on behalf of Christian So-Cons trying to gain legal acceptance for their laws and codes, quite the opposite in fact, I'm confused why you and others are so desperate to spin for the Islamists.
It is really, really, really fucking wrong of you to say that I'm desperately spinning for the Islamists. It is pointless, and tiresome.
When you can show me a law in the US that is being influenced by Muslim fundamentalists, I will oppose it every much as I oppose the influence of Christian Socons influence on the law. In fact, given the wide overlap in views between those two groups, I would say that my opposition to the Socons is an opposition to the Muslim fundamentalists.
I have no clue why you think it's okay accuse me of spinning for the Islamacists. It is a foolish accusation with no weight to it whatseover, and it is beyond insulting.
| 324 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:12:49pm |
re: #313 windsagio
As far as I can tell, you guys argument comes down to 'They're different because jewish tradition is good and islamic is tradition is bad!'
That pretty close?
Crude and dense as usual, but not completely unworthy of response.
Sharia Law was codified in many centuries ago and it does not permit for itself to evolve and be interpreted in the progressive and forward-looking ways that the domestic law and Jewish law permit. That is a huge problem with Sharia and Islam - it is static and stuck in the dark ages.
| 325 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:13:30pm |
re: #321 Bagua
Buzzkill, it was a joke :p
I don't think they approved ALL the lapses that went through, as memory serves there were a bunch of really crazy ones right near the time of the blowout, and the BP manager involved was taking the Fifth.
| 326 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:13:37pm |
re: #314 jamesfirecat
Okay well try to keep it positive with suggestions of what he could do rather than speculations about how he's an evil genius who places more interest in his political agenda than the lives/livelyhoods of the people who elected him.
If I had fallen asleep in 2005 and woken up today, the only thing that I would find unfamiliar about these arguments is the political identity of those making them.
| 327 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:13:38pm |
re: #231 JasonA
Okay, there really is no discussing this issue with you, is there?
I've decided to stay out of the issue. There really is no discussing it at all. I, at least, know enough to know how little I know about sharia. A number of folks here do not seem at all slowed down by their lack of knowledge.
| 328 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:15:01pm |
re: #318 Bagua
Beyond that, I can not help you Obdicut, because when you have decided to oppose my comments you focus on redefining what I say into a straw man you can knock down and play at being befuddled. As I've never seen you spin on behalf of Christian So-Cons trying to gain legal acceptance for their laws and codes, quite the opposite in fact, I'm confused why you and others are so desperate to spin for the Islamists.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CRIMINAL AND CIVIL LAW?
And you're accusing him of straw men?!? Fuck.
| 329 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:15:12pm |
re: #317 windsagio
How much does apple's sdk cost? They're pretty stingy about control.
Windy..They have the toughest in the world....The OS is written in pure C with no wrapper shit..You can't call into the kernel..And I don't give a crap if you are a AntiVirus program....All Calls are controlled.. The Code is tight
Back in the day we mocked them..
Nobody is laughing now
| 330 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:15:27pm |
re: #326 alexknyc
If I had fallen asleep in 2005 and woken up today, the only thing that I would find unfamiliar about these arguments is the political identity of those making them.
///Obama doesn't care about white people!
| 331 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:15:32pm |
re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist
I've decided to stay out of the issue.
I wish I were half as smart as you are...
| 332 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:15:33pm |
re: #314 jamesfirecat
Okay well try to keep it positive with suggestions of what he could do rather than speculations about how he's an evil genius who places more interest in his political agenda than the lives/livelyhoods of the people who elected him.
///Wait a minute! [Link: en.wikipedia.org...] If you ignore Florida as a flip floopity outlier, all the states that are being splashed with oil voted for McCain! This oil spill is Obama's plan to punish them for doing that! My gods its way craftier than the FEMA re-education camps!
you get really excitable...BO has bombed in the Gulf, GB, JM and Fema have nothing to do with any of it
| 333 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:15:34pm |
re: #316 Obdicut
The main point of arbitration is to allow the parties to achieve a quicker and cheaper result than in the regular court system.
| 334 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:15:39pm |
re: #318 Bagua
And this time, can you please remember that you've made the completely baffling and odious accusation that I spin for the Islamacists, and not forget you ever said it?
| 335 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:16:09pm |
re: #323 Obdicut
When it gets right down to it, I htink the problem is that people didn't understand that the legal underpinnings of the Beth Din arbitration courts and the Sharia arbitration courts were the same, and they're dealing with the fact that the whole underpinning of 'omg evil Islamists are taking over Britain!' has been pretty-well undermined.
| 336 |
Racer X Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:16:37pm |
re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist
A number of folks here do not seem at all slowed down by their lack of knowledge.
Welcome to the internetz.
| 337 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:17:31pm |
re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist
I've decided to stay out of the issue. There really is no discussing it at all. I, at least, know enough to know how little I know about sharia. A number of folks here do not seem at all slowed down by their lack of knowledge.
heh...it twas ever thus,
everybody is an expert
| 338 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:17:51pm |
re: #329 HoosierHoops
I didn't say it was automatically BAD!
(altho in fairness, iPhone hacking is on the way up, since nobody really bothered with stealing peoples unfinished novels offa macbooks :p)
I'm just saying my impression was that it was hard and expensive to develop for. Turns out the SDK is free tho (I looked it up!)
| 340 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:18:25pm |
re: #305 Floral Giraffe
You want me to call mine, for you?
Nah, that's ok. I need to learn to make my own decisions. I decided to sell off half my BP. It had a big jump today and my loss will be pretty minor. I'll hold on to a little BP stock just to see what happens. I could really use the cash anyways.
| 341 |
Nimed Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:18:32pm |
re: #158 Bagua
#1082
This was met with Lol the Jews do it too with their Beth Din.
#901, #919, #861 Lol, #854All citing.
Jewish Beth Din courts operate under the same provision in the Arbitration Act and resolve civil cases, ranging from divorce to business disputes. They have existed in Britain for more than 100 years, and previously operated under a precursor to the act.
With the inference that since the Jewish Beth Din operates under the same covering law, there is no need to single out Sharia law as they are comperable. Nothing to be concerned with, just like the Jews.
My argument is that while they may both be covered by the same common law statute, there is no true equivalence between the Modern Beth Din which concerns itself primarily with marriage, divorce and voluntary arbitration of financial disputes and Sharia law, which has a goal of imposing their moral codes on the secular Muslims in their community, codes which oppress women and gays.
lol the jews do it too? Seriously? Bagua, you are disgustingly distorting my and other people's arguments on that thread. Either you are too thick to grasp the concept of freedom of religion or being deliberately malicious. I, SanFranZ, JasonA and others were obviously not deciding which set of religious rules we liked best. We were claiming that, as long as they are compatible with a given country's law, your personal preferences toward some religions over others should not become law. This extremely basic principle of a liberal democracy was repeated over and over and over again. What are you still not getting?
| 342 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:18:49pm |
re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist
That was a downright artfully vague response >>
| 343 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:18:50pm |
re: #325 windsagio
Buzzkill, it was a joke :p
I don't think they approved ALL the lapses that went through, as memory serves there were a bunch of really crazy ones right near the time of the blowout, and the BP manager involved was taking the Fifth.
Oh, ha, ha.
They approved all the steps and were alerted to the problems, such as lost circulation. The MMS specifically granted BP permission to displace the heavy mud with sea-water which directly let to the blow out. They discussed the problems back and forth and the MMS approved the well design and every step along the way. Drilling is a tightly regulated industry.
I believe Obama is already clear on the regulatory failure and the failings of the MMS and is drafting new regulations that will require direct oversight by experts in private industry, rather than rely on public regulators. I'll post more about this as I read up on it, but I think it makes sense.
| 344 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:20:04pm |
re: #328 JasonA
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CRIMINAL AND CIVIL LAW?
And you're accusing him of straw men?!? Fuck.
DO YOU?!!11!
Why so calm?
| 345 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:20:20pm |
re: #343 Bagua
Oh on the last part, he is. Can you link to the first bit? I hadn't heard that.
| 346 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:21:15pm |
re: #331 JasonA
You're not on a blog to 'stay out of it' ;)
Or I'm not anyways :D If yer not gonna take part, why read it?
| 347 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:21:34pm |
re: #309 Spare O'Lake
Insofar as I am aware Beth Dins are meticulously careful not to render decisions which seriously conflict with domestic law. The purpose of arbitration is to provide an alternate dispute resolution system to the civil court system...but NOT to provide a way for parties to choose a repugnant legal system and then expect the domestic system to rubber stamp the result.
Sorry, but this is purely partisan. The issue here is not the law, it's how you perceive the people applying religious law. The recognition of Sharia in England is precisely modeled on the previous recognition of the Bayt Din in England. The only reason people are now screaming and hollering is that they don't like the idea anymore now that Muslims get to do it.
| 348 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:21:34pm |
re: #340 Killgore Trout
Nah, that's ok. I need to learn to make my own decisions. I decided to sell off half my BP. It had a big jump today and my loss will be pretty minor. I'll hold on to a little BP stock just to see what happens. I could really use the cash anyways.
chances are excellent that BO will come to their rescue....tax the citizens, and let BP off the hook in which case they would remain solvent on your dime, then make trillions again...keep your half, smart move for now imo
| 349 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:22:29pm |
re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist
A number of folks here do not seem at all slowed down by their lack of knowledge.
Hi. I see we've met.
| 350 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:22:33pm |
Oh wow. Look at this. Christian Divorce Services. A "legally final and binding adjudication process as an alternative to the court system." Right here in the US of A.
| 351 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:22:47pm |
re: #313 windsagio
As far as I can tell, you guys argument comes down to 'They're different because jewish tradition is good and islamic is tradition is bad!'
That pretty close?
I think that's the argument being presented, yes.
| 352 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:22:52pm |
re: #347 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm curious where the law came from actually, since the references say its 'over 100 years old'.
Relic of Imperial rule, maybe?
| 353 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:23:07pm |
re: #315 Spare O'Lake
What if family, religious and social pressures were so overwhelming that you had no effective choice but to agree. That is what could be expected in Islamist neighbourhoods.
And in Mea Shearim...
| 354 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:23:11pm |
re: #346 windsagio
You're not on a blog to 'stay out of it' ;)
Or I'm not anyways :D If yer not gonna take part, why read it?
Au contraire. Sometimes sitting backing and letting the fur scroll by on the spy is fun.
| 356 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:23:47pm |
re: #350 JasonA
Oh god they're taking over.
Heh. The uber-fundamentalist version of that would be funny:
"No. Next case. No. Next case. No. Next case. No."
| 357 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:23:50pm |
re: #341 Nimed
lol the jews do it too? Seriously? Bagua, you are disgustingly distorting my and other people's arguments on that thread. Either you are too thick to grasp the concept of freedom of religion or being deliberately malicious. I, SanFranZ, JasonA and others were obviously not deciding which set of religious rules we liked best. We were claiming that, as long as they are compatible with a given country's law, your personal preferences toward some religions over others should not become law. This extremely basic principle of a liberal democracy was repeated over and over and over again. What are you still not getting?
re: #861 Nimed
lol
In the same article:
Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case.
(...)
Jewish Beth Din courts operate under the same provision in the Arbitration Act and resolve civil cases, ranging from divorce to business disputes. They have existed in Britain for more than 100 years, and previously operated under a precursor to the act.
| 358 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:24:20pm |
re: #324 Spare O'Lake
Crude and dense as usual, but not completely unworthy of response.
Sharia Law was codified in many centuries ago and it does not permit for itself to evolve and be interpreted in the progressive and forward-looking ways that the domestic law and Jewish law permit. That is a huge problem with Sharia and Islam - it is static and stuck in the dark ages.
Please provide some documentation for that statement.
| 359 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:24:41pm |
| 360 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:24:43pm |
re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist
I've decided to stay out of the issue. There really is no discussing it at all. I, at least, know enough to know how little I know about sharia. A number of folks here do not seem at all slowed down by their lack of knowledge.
Clearly, I'm failing at this, but I am trying. Have deleted at least six responses.
| 361 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:25:16pm |
re: #357 Bagua
You realize that does not equate to "The Jews do it too" right?
| 362 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:25:36pm |
re: #335 windsagio
When it gets right down to it, I htink the problem is that people didn't understand that the legal underpinnings of the Beth Din arbitration courts and the Sharia arbitration courts were the same, and they're dealing with the fact that the whole underpinning of 'omg evil Islamists are taking over Britain!' has been pretty-well undermined.
If you are asking whether Beth Din and other compatible alternate dispute resolution systems are being abused and threatened in order to try to legitimize oppressive Shariah Law, you are correct.
| 363 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:25:50pm |
re: #357 Bagua
-1 for lack of comprehension so vast it must be intentional.
You're not a dumb guy Bagua. At least TRY to actually parse.
| 364 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:26:01pm |
| 365 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:26:02pm |
re: #362 Spare O'Lake
If you are asking whether Beth Din and other compatible alternate dispute resolution systems are being abused and threatened in order to try to legitimize oppressive Shariah Law, you are correct.
... what? Beth Din is being abused... by whom?
| 366 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:26:27pm |
re: #360 SanFranciscoZionist
Instead tell me the difference between 'Beth Din' and 'Bayt Din' :D
I'll try to keep you distracted!
| 367 |
bratwurst Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:27:00pm |
re: #358 SanFranciscoZionist
Please provide some documentation for that statement.
If history is any guide here, I wouldn't hold your breath.
| 368 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:27:39pm |
re: #350 JasonA
Oh wow. Look at this. Christian Divorce Services. A "legally final and binding adjudication process as an alternative to the court system." Right here in the US of A.
I also know plenty of evangelicals who prefer to have their pastor counsel them on business or property disputes within the community, rather than go to court against a member of their church.
As far as I know, it either works out, or the guy who loses insists on going to court.
| 369 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:27:41pm |
I always get in trouble for saying this, but it needs to be repeated.
The whole basis of this argument is that some people on here hate Islam don't think it deserves the same protections as other faiths.
It's awful.
| 370 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:28:20pm |
re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist
I've decided to stay out of the issue. There really is no discussing it at all. I, at least, know enough to know how little I know about sharia. A number of folks here do not seem at all slowed down by their lack of knowledge.
You didn't though, you downdinged most of my posts and reduced them to a caricature in your comment. That is why I requested those with more knowledge than I on the subject of modern Jewish law to weigh in on whether my representation that modern Jewish law and Sharia law are very different. I could be wrong, discuss.
| 371 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:28:23pm |
re: #347 SanFranciscoZionist
Sorry, but this is purely partisan. The issue here is not the law, it's how you perceive the people applying religious law. The recognition of Sharia in England is precisely modeled on the previous recognition of the Bayt Din in England. The only reason people are now screaming and hollering is that they don't like the idea anymore now that Muslims get to do it.
And you thereby ignore the gross differences in the two legal systems and legitimize a repugnant dark ages legal code.
| 373 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:29:15pm |
re: #352 windsagio
I'm curious where the law came from actually, since the references say its 'over 100 years old'.
Relic of Imperial rule, maybe?
Possibly, or just something developed to make life easier for the Jewish merchant community. A bayt din will apply a consistent standard of legal procedure, so you're not stuck arguing English import law against Tunisian export law.
| 374 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:29:49pm |
re: #365 Obdicut
... what? Beth Din is being abused... by whom?
Plus one for knowing when to use "whom." :)
| 375 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:30:01pm |
re: #356 Obdicut
Oh god they're taking over.
Heh. The uber-fundamentalist version of that would be funny:
"No. Next case. No. Next case. No. Next case. No."
"The Lord has given us many words, and the greatest of these is NO."
(Ian Paisley didn't really say that, but it's such a great quote.)
| 376 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:30:02pm |
re: #370 Bagua
Sharia law and Beth Din law are very different and nobody every argued otherwise.
Sheesh.
| 378 |
cliffster Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:30:32pm |
you guys quit talking about Sharia. stopitstopitstopitstopitstopitstopit
| 379 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:30:53pm |
re: #362 Spare O'Lake
If you are asking whether Beth Din and other compatible alternate dispute resolution systems are being abused and threatened in order to try to legitimize oppressive Shariah Law, you are correct.
How?
| 380 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:31:20pm |
re: #378 cliffster
I can't, you see. Too busy 'spinning for the Islamicists'.
What ripe bullshit that was.
| 381 |
Gus Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:31:30pm |
re: #378 cliffster
you guys quit talking about Sharia. stopitstopitstopitstopitstopitstopit
Yeah. This Bronze Age stuff gets boring fast.
| 382 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:31:37pm |
re: #366 windsagio
Instead tell me the difference between 'Beth Din' and 'Bayt Din' :D
I'll try to keep you distracted!
Region. I actually say "Bais Din", but I usually try to keep my Sephardi accent on in mixed company.
| 383 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:32:08pm |
re: #378 cliffster
you guys quit talking about Sharia. stopitstopitstopitstopitstopitstopit
(top of my voice)
How do you solve a problem like Sharia.
| 384 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:32:12pm |
| 385 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:32:27pm |
re: #369 windsagio
I always get in trouble for saying this, but it needs to be repeated.
The whole basis of this argument is that some people on here hate Islam don't think it deserves the same protections as other faiths.
It's awful.
I think you can be troubled by the complex issues involved in applying Sharia law to self-isolating Muslim communities in the West without being a hater.
| 386 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:33:06pm |
re: #369 windsagio
I always get in trouble for saying this, but it needs to be repeated.
The whole basis of this argument is that some people on here hate Islam don't think it deserves the same protections as other faiths.
It's awful.
-1 for bullshit...that did not need to be repeated because it's a simplistic accusation that you didn't back up with facts...but for an Israel hater, I'm hardly surprised
| 387 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:34:14pm |
re: #369 windsagio
I always get in trouble for saying this, but it needs to be repeated.
The whole basis of this argument is that some people on here hate Islam don't think it deserves the same protections as other faiths.
It's awful.
It's not so much that I don't think that fundamentalist Islam poses a threat, you know?
It's that I KNOW that if I stray from strictly supporting religious freedom for all, they've already won.
| 388 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:34:23pm |
| 389 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:34:29pm |
re: #385 alexknyc
I think you can be troubled by the complex issues involved in applying Sharia law to self-isolating Muslim communities in the West without being a hater.
If they're self-isolating, you're not really going to know what's going on inside them anyway. That's why having these things in open courts, with public record, is actually a good, moderating influence.
| 390 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:34:48pm |
re: #386 albusteve
-1 for bullshit...that did not need to be repeated because it's a simplistic accusation that you didn't back up with facts...but for an Israel hater, I'm hardly surprised
Do any other reasons not come to mind?
| 391 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:35:47pm |
re: #370 Bagua
You didn't though, you downdinged most of my posts and reduced them to a caricature in your comment. That is why I requested those with more knowledge than I on the subject of modern Jewish law to weigh in on whether my representation that modern Jewish law and Sharia law are very different. I could be wrong, discuss.
I'm trying to at this time, let us say.
| 392 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:36:00pm |
OT... I think I just created a real American meal.
Red beats
White beans
& Bluefish! yum
| 393 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:36:53pm |
re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist
That's exactly it.
Its like the case with Obdicut. He's defending a case of religious freedom, and arguing that settled law is settled law, and he's being accused of 'spinning for radical islam'.
The paranoia about 'Islam taking over government' gets to me tho', its like they've directly replaced communism with a new boogyman.
| 394 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:37:02pm |
| 395 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:37:33pm |
re: #371 Spare O'Lake
And you thereby ignore the gross differences in the two legal systems and legitimize a repugnant dark ages legal code.
I'm still waiting for evidence of your assertion that sharia is static. Let's start there. If a case comes before an imam, what resources does he turn to in order to determine the law concerning the case? Is it regional, or universal? What books are valid when considering the law? What is the cut-off date by which sharia was codified?
| 396 |
bratwurst Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:37:34pm |
re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist
It's that I KNOW that if I stray from strictly supporting religious freedom for all, they've already won.
Quoted because it deserves to be re-read!
| 397 |
Nimed Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:38:02pm |
re: #357 Bagua
Sigh. First of all, that was a quote from the Times article describing the legal framework under which both Beth Din and Sharia are allowed to settle disputes. I quoted the article to show that Muslims are not, in fact, legislating Sharia in England. They are using the existing legal framework.
There's no more arguing this with you without repeating all the points previously made. Either you believe Muslims should have less rights than other British citizens or you don't. You apparently do.
| 398 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:38:49pm |
re: #334 Obdicut
And this time, can you please remember that you've made the completely baffling and odious accusation that I spin for the Islamacists, and not forget you ever said it?
You are spinning for them here, I asked for others opinions and yet I get a flurry of your typical responses challenging my assertions and acting baffled. I find that odious.
Be clear that I am not suggesting that you or the others approve of the vile ideas of the Islamists, but you are determined to deflect any criticism of them. This never happens when we talk about Christian fundamentalists and their attempts to gain legitimacy.
| 399 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:39:03pm |
re: #396 bratwurst
Quoted because it deserves to be re-read!
-1... the statement is hardly profound, and does not to be re-read
| 400 |
Nimed Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:39:15pm |
re: #369 windsagio
I always get in trouble for saying this, but it needs to be repeated.
The whole basis of this argument is that some people on here hate Islam don't think it deserves the same protections as other faiths.
It's awful.
Exactly.
| 401 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:39:16pm |
re: #365 Obdicut
... what? Beth Din is being abused... by whom?
By folks like you who are prepared to cheapen it by ignoring its vast superiority to Sharia Law. You ignore the fact that Sharia and Islamism are far more coercive than Jewish Law, which thereby calls the concensual underpinnings of the process into question. In your zeal to extend to Islam equal legal protection, you overlook its fundamentally repugnant and inflexible aspects. The dhimmi Brit position boils down to an all or nothing proposition, when true justice would dictate a more discriminating approach based on the very real differences.
| 402 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:39:19pm |
I'll be posting another basketball thread right before the game starts. This is the best playoff series I've seen in a long time.
| 403 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:39:24pm |
| 404 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:40:02pm |
re: #402 Charles
I'll be posting another basketball thread right before the game starts. This is the best playoff series I've seen in a long time.
Thanks Charles! I'm jacked! It's do or die tonight
| 405 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:40:06pm |
re: #402 Charles
I'll be posting another basketball thread right before the game starts. This is the best playoff series I've seen in a long time.
yaaaay!...you da bomb
thanks
| 406 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:40:27pm |
re: #345 windsagio
Oh on the last part, he is. Can you link to the first bit? I hadn't heard that.
Yes, I will once I'm caught up on the oil spill developments.
| 407 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:40:34pm |
re: #398 Bagua
Yeah, I'm determined to deflect any criticism of them.
re: #294 Obdicut
Yes, Muslim fundamentalists are terrible on gay rights, absolutely evil on the subject, and should be opposed at every turn when they try to influence legislation or otherwise harass gays.
What does that have to do with the conversation we're having about arbitration courts, though? If I was a gay dude, I wouldn't agree to the dispute being arbitrated in a sharia court, and it wouldn't be.
Look at that spin, as I call them absolutely evil and say they should be opposed at every turn when they try to influence legislation!
I'm some sort of dhimmi monster!
How can you possibly say I'm deflecting criticism? What criticism have I deflected?
| 408 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:41:08pm |
re: #403 windsagio
Please go on.
-1 for being obtuse and not backing up your assertions about Islam haters here
| 409 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:41:35pm |
re: #401 Spare O'Lake
. In your zeal to extend to Islam equal legal protection, you overlook its fundamentally repugnant and inflexible aspects. /blockquote>
Thank you for being honest that you do not agree that Islam should have equal legal protection.
I reject that position utterly. Islam should have equal legal protection to any other religion.
| 410 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:41:38pm |
re: #369 windsagio
I always get in trouble for saying this, but it needs to be repeated.
The whole basis of this argument is that some people on here hate Islam don't think it deserves the same protections as other faiths.
It's awful.
Would there ever be a point in human affairs in this country where you think that would change, and change legally? Is there ever a point where the damage the religion is doing is severe enough to consider banning the whole organization? I'm not talking about exterminating anyone, but, similar to Germany and Scientology, making the religion illegal to practice in this country. Can a religion or any group of people that has certain rights under our constitution step over some line, some situation that our Founding Fathers could never imagine when they penned our laws, is there a legal breaking point?
Thought exercise.
| 411 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:41:38pm |
re: #389 Obdicut
If they're self-isolating, you're not really going to know what's going on inside them anyway. That's why having these things in open courts, with public record, is actually a good, moderating influence.
I agree that sunlight is the best disinfectant (Jefferson?) but I'm also wary of Islamic communities becoming "reservations" with a parallel legal structure and where civil authority either fears or doesn't care to tread.
There is no easy answer to any of this, though I too tend to fall on the side of supporting religious freedom. But to paint the people who don't necessarily agree with me as bigots does NOTHING to advance the discussion of the issue.
In fact, it's designed to do exactly the opposite-- shut down the discussion because now you've tarred the "other side's" opinion with the bigot brush.
Are there bigots who agree with those who don't want Sharia law anywhere in the west? Of course. Is everyone who takes that position a racist? Of course not.
But, since they're not on "your side," why distinguish?
| 412 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:42:09pm |
re: #397 Nimed
Interesting bit from the archbishop of Canterbury on the issue, a good read.
Williams was the subject of a media and press furore in February 2008, following a lecture he gave to the Temple foundation at the Royal Courts of Justice on the subject of 'Islam and English Law'. He raised the question of conflicting loyalties which communities might have, cultural, religious and civic and argued that theology has a place in debates about the very nature of law 'however hard our culture may try to keep it out' and noted that there is in a 'dominant human rights philosophy' a reluctance to acknowledge the liberty of conscientious objection. He spoke of 'supplementary jurisdictions' to that of the civil law. Noting the anxieties which the word Sharia provoked in the West he drew attention to the fact that there was a debate within Islam between what he called "primitivists" for whom, for instance, apostasy should still be punishable and those Muslims who argued that Sharia was a developing system of Islamic jurisprudence that such a view was no longer acceptable. He made comparisons with "Orthodox Jewish practice" (Beth Din) and with the recognition of the exercise of conscience of Christians.
His words were critically interpreted as proposing a parallel jurisdiction to the civil law for Muslims (Sharia), and was the subject of demands from elements of the press and media for his resignation. He also attracted criticism from elements of the Anglican Communion.
In response, Williams stated in a BBC interview "... certain provision[s] of Sharia are already recognised in our society and under our law; ... we already have in this country a number of situations in which the internal law of religious communities is recognised by the law of the land as justified conscientious objections in certain circumstances in providing certain kinds of social relations" and that "we have Orthodox Jewish courts operating in this country legally and in a regulated way because there are modes of dispute resolution and customary provisions which apply there in the light of Talmud." Williams also denied accusations of proposing a parallel Islamic legal system within Britain. Williams also acknowledged that Sharia, "In some of the ways it has been codified and practised across the world, it has been appalling and applied to women in places like Saudi Arabia, it is grim."
On 4 July 2008 Sharia again became a topic of media interest, following comments by Lord Phillips, the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales. He supported the idea that Sharia could be reasonably employed as a basis for "mediation or other forms of alternative dispute resolution". He went further to defend Williams's position from earlier in the year, explaining "It was not very radical to advocate embracing sharia law in the context of family disputes, for example, and our system already goes a long way towards accommodating the archbishop's suggestion." and "It is possible in this country for those who are entering into a contractual agreement to agree that the agreement shall be governed by a law other than English law."]
| 413 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:42:12pm |
re: #404 HoosierHoops
Thanks Charles! I'm jacked! It's do or die tonight
what?....you said that last game....
they are all do or die, some just more die-able than others
| 414 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:42:21pm |
re: #379 SanFranciscoZionist
How?
Ultimately, once you pose the matter as an all or nothing proposition and gloss over the fundamental differences between the legal systems, you just may end up throwing out the Beit Din baby with the Sharia bathwater.
| 416 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:42:40pm |
re: #409 Obdicut
Ugh.
Spare said:
In your zeal to extend to Islam equal legal protection, you overlook its fundamentally repugnant and inflexible aspects.
and I replied:
Thank you for being honest that you do not agree that Islam should have equal legal protection.
I reject that position utterly. Islam should have equal legal protection to any other religion.
| 417 |
cliffster Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:43:09pm |
re: #413 albusteve
what?...you said that last game...
they are all do or die, some just more die-able than others
-1,000,000,000,003 for not recognizing the importance of this game
| 418 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:44:04pm |
re: #417 cliffster
-1,000,000,000,003 for not recognizing the importance of this game
+1 for I don't care
| 419 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:44:28pm |
re: #410 Walter L. Newton
Can a religion or any group of people that has certain rights under our constitution step over some line, some situation that our Founding Fathers could never imagine when they penned our laws, is there a legal breaking point?
Thought exercise.
Was Islam more tolerant in the late 1700s?
| 420 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:44:43pm |
re: #414 Spare O'Lake
Ultimately, once you pose the matter as an all or nothing proposition and gloss over the fundamental differences between the legal systems, you just may end up throwing out the Beit Din baby with the Sharia bathwater.
You must. It's not possible to tell one religious community that their internal decisions on civil matters have one legal status, and another that theirs does not. That's why I prefer to allow both to operate, within the bounds of secular law, and get on with my life.
Now, you got any answers for my questions above?
| 421 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:44:44pm |
| 422 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:44:44pm |
re: #411 alexknyc
I agree that sunlight is the best disinfectant (Jefferson?) but I'm also wary of Islamic communities becoming "reservations" with a parallel legal structure and where civil authority either fears or doesn't care to tread.
That would be terrible, and we should make sure it doesn't happen, in the same way as any other isolated religious group.
There is no easy answer to any of this, though I too tend to fall on the side of supporting religious freedom. But to paint the people who don't necessarily agree with me as bigots does NOTHING to advance the discussion of the issue.
Can you point out where I've painted anyone as a bigot?
In fact, it's designed to do exactly the opposite-- shut down the discussion because now you've tarred the "other side's" opinion with the bigot brush.
Again, I haven't said anyone was a bigot, at all.
Are there bigots who agree with those who don't want Sharia law anywhere in the west? Of course. Is everyone who takes that position a racist? Of course not.
Racist, bigot-- not words I have used, or accusations I have made. So why are you saying this to me?
| 423 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:44:49pm |
re: #416 Obdicut
Ugh.
Spare said:
and I replied:
Thank you for being honest that you do not agree that Islam should have equal legal protection.
I reject that position utterly. Islam should have equal legal protection to any other religion.
-! for getting dragged down into a hair splitting pissing match over semantics
| 424 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:44:50pm |
re: #413 albusteve
what?...you said that last game...
they are all do or die, some just more die-able than others
I have not posted the words do or die in at least a year...
I did say if the Celts would have won they would win the series..
/Hi Steve!
| 425 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:44:57pm |
re: #365 Obdicut
... what? Beth Din is being abused... by whom?
No, that was poorly written, you know what I meant but are trying to find something to latch on to. Again, desperately spinning you are.
| 426 |
freetoken Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:45:10pm |
re: #281 Spare O'Lake
If the parties agree to be bound by Sharia rules of commerce or evidence which are completely at odds with the domestic law, what then?
The Constitution of the US is the law of the land. Any laws passed and signed by the Congress and President become law under this. Any arbitration agreement, whether based on religious or non-religious agreements, are subject to the laws of the land.
| 427 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:45:13pm |
re: #410 Walter L. Newton
Easy answer, tho'.
"When they're promoting illegal activities."
I'm not big on blood sacrifice.
I think that parents should be punished for inflicting their religious views on their kids and thus killing them (we have a bunch of 'say no to modern medicine' sects in OR), but that's not really under your question, imo.
As a note, Germany doesn't ban the CoS as a religion, but rather as a fraudulent scam :)
| 428 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:45:27pm |
They're seriously confused that I would still do what I've always done.
| 429 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:45:52pm |
re: #414 Spare O'Lake
Ultimately, once you pose the matter as an all or nothing proposition and gloss over the fundamental differences between the legal systems, you just may end up throwing out the Beit Din baby with the Sharia bathwater.
Oh that's right. You're the one who wanted to ban all religious structures from downtown NY just to stop a mosque...
| 430 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:46:19pm |
re: #419 JasonA
Was Islam more tolerant in the late 1700s?
Was it a problem in this country in the late 1700's. Yes, it was a problem on the north african continent and in other areas, but it was certainly not a consideration in this country then... that's a moot point.
| 431 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:46:35pm |
re: #425 Bagua
No, that was poorly written, you know what I meant but are trying to find something to latch on to. Again, desperately spinning you are.
You didn't say it, Bagua. It wasn't something you wrote.
So why are you acting as though I said it to you, and saying that I know what you meant?
| 432 |
freetoken Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:46:44pm |
re: #428 Charles
They're seriously confused...
That is sufficient to explain them. Really, that crowd is so confused over so many things.
| 433 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:46:45pm |
re: #419 JasonA
Was Islam more tolerant in the late 1700s?
In some respects, yes.
In the Ottoman Empire, Jews and Christians were allowed to live in their own communities, collect their own taxes and follow their own laws. They paid a heavy tax to do so.
Compare this to today where practicing Christianity is illegal in Saudi Arabia and simply being Jewish is outlawed.
| 434 |
Gus Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:46:52pm |
| 435 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:47:02pm |
re: #419 JasonA
Was Islam more tolerant in the late 1700s?
Depends where. Now, George Washington did include 'Mahometans' on the list of faiths he didn't care if the workmen hired to work on his house followed, as long as they were good.
In the 1500s, or course, Turkey was a beacon of hope for Jews fleeing the Inquisition. At least, it used to be. Now that the 'myth' of the Golden Age of Spain has been so thoroughly blacklisted, who can tell anymore?
| 436 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:47:23pm |
| 437 |
Nimed Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:47:30pm |
re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist
It's not so much that I don't think that fundamentalist Islam poses a threat, you know?
It's that I KNOW that if I stray from strictly supporting religious freedom for all, they've already won.
Lots of Muslim countries have legal systems that impose religion based discrimination. Horrifying stuff. Let's do it too!
| 438 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:47:58pm |
re: #424 HoosierHoops
I have not posted the words do or die in at least a year...
I did say if the Celts would have won they would win the series..
/Hi Steve!
I'm looking for a game...this .300 shooting is a bust....I want to see Kobe with his hands on his knees gasping, trying to play defense....I want to see some action in the paint, rough and tumble BB
| 439 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:48:17pm |
re: #430 Walter L. Newton
Was it a problem in this country in the late 1700's. Yes, it was a problem on the north african continent and in other areas, but it was certainly not a consideration in this country then... that's a moot point.
No, I'm not suggesting it was a huge problem here. Just wondering aloud about the idea that "a religion or any group of people that has certain rights under our constitution (could) step over some line, some situation that our Founding Fathers could never imagine when they penned our laws." I'm more letting the idea drift in my head than I'm disagreeing with you.
| 440 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:48:26pm |
re: #410 Walter L. Newton
Would there ever be a point in human affairs in this country where you think that would change, and change legally? Is there ever a point where the damage the religion is doing is severe enough to consider banning the whole organization? I'm not talking about exterminating anyone, but, similar to Germany and Scientology, making the religion illegal to practice in this country. Can a religion or any group of people that has certain rights under our constitution step over some line, some situation that our Founding Fathers could never imagine when they penned our laws, is there a legal breaking point?
Thought exercise.
Thugee might meet some resistance. (Actually, a line of sorts was imposed on the Mormons, over polygamy.)
| 441 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:48:36pm |
re: #433 alexknyc
Or to the Massachussets Bay Colony, pre-Revolution, for that matter. Jews weren't allowed to own land, and heretical types were evicted.
That's how we got Rhode Island.
| 442 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:48:47pm |
re: #427 windsagio
WHat the fuck are you talking about? I wasn't talking about sacrifice, parents, I mentioned nothing like that in my comment... all I asked could you imagine a time when it is possible that Islam over step the line in this country and we do find a way to ban it?
My comment was not in reference to anything you siad up thread, or anything anyone said up thread, it's a new topic.
| 443 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:48:48pm |
re: #422 Obdicut
Racist, bigot-- not words I have used, or accusations I have made. So why are you saying this to me?
My apologies... that was Windsagio not you.
| 444 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:48:56pm |
re: #434 Gus 802
Whats funny, having JUST READ WHAT WILLIAMS ACTUALLY SAID, Hitchens is being an ignorant ass.
| 445 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:49:10pm |
re: #444 windsagio
But that's par for the course for him, I guess ;D
| 446 |
Gus Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:49:39pm |
re: #444 windsagio
Whats funny, having JUST READ WHAT WILLIAMS ACTUALLY SAID, Hitchens is being an ignorant ass.
Whatever you say windsagio. Hitchens is right. Rowan Williams is a naive jackass.
| 447 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:49:42pm |
re: #407 Obdicut
...
How can you possibly say I'm deflecting criticism? What criticism have I deflected?
My criticism of the Islamists' agenda to bring Sharia law to their communities in Britain. Your flurry of posts attacking everything I say. It is obvious to anyone except befuddled little you.
| 448 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:50:08pm |
re: #443 alexknyc
My apologies... that was Windsagio not you.
Thank you. I generally don't find that sort of language useful, because, as you note, it confuses the issue. I'm not very interested in pinning down people's motives, since I think it's hard as hell to do over the interwebs.
| 449 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:50:10pm |
re: #436 windsagio
Its attack attack attack.
I envy you your popularity :P
I'll bet...it must mean everything to you
-1 for shallow stroking
| 450 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:50:14pm |
| 452 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:50:55pm |
re: #447 Bagua
My criticism of the Islamists' agenda to bring Sharia law to their communities in Britain. Your flurry of posts attacking everything I say. It is obvious to anyone except befuddled little you.
Is it? I don't really see a groundswell of support for your accusation that I'm 'desperately spinning for the Islamacists'.
Why are you sure everyone agrees with you?
| 453 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:51:03pm |
re: #442 Walter L. Newton
I'll specify my answer to Islam then, I thought yo uwere asking in general.
I see no scenario in which we can ever with justification 'Ban Islam'. If a particular Islamic leader were advocating crime, he would rightly be gone after, but that's not what you're saying.
So to answer your question, no never.
| 454 |
researchok Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:51:04pm |
In the UK, utilization of the Beth Din is optional. The Muslim community wishes to make utilization of Sharia mandatory for Muslims. Further, Sharia proponents want the courts to have actual enforcement powers (backed up and supported by the state), unlike Beth in rules.
It is for these reasons Muslim women in large have rallied against Sharia courts See International Campaign Against Shari'a Court in Canada.
The issue of Sharia Courts in Britain are many, not the least if which is who will control the courts. There is infighting between the moderates and the more stringent communities as well as the Arab and Pakistani communities, for example.
Each group want the the government to bless their efforts.
Big grief.
| 455 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:51:16pm |
re: #433 alexknyc
In some respects, yes.
In the Ottoman Empire, Jews and Christians were allowed to live in their own communities, collect their own taxes and follow their own laws. They paid a heavy tax to do so.
Compare this to today where practicing Christianity is illegal in Saudi Arabia and simply being Jewish is outlawed.
Compare this also to the fact that Judaism and Jews were banned in England from 1291 to the 1650s. Whole different world it was.
| 456 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:51:48pm |
| 457 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:51:58pm |
re: #448 Obdicut
I think that the motivations are actually whats important. But its a style thing, probably :p
| 458 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:52:18pm |
re: #449 albusteve
I'll bet...it must mean everything to you
-1 for shallow stroking
Oh, i 1 for shallow stroking.
| 459 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:52:45pm |
re: #450 Walter L. Newton
My kingdom for an edit function on posts!
| 460 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:53:01pm |
| 461 |
Nimed Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:53:05pm |
re: #442 Walter L. Newton
WHat the fuck are you talking about? I wasn't talking about sacrifice, parents, I mentioned nothing like that in my comment... all I asked could you imagine a time when it is possible that Islam over step the line in this country and we do find a way to ban it?
My comment was not in reference to anything you siad up thread, or anything anyone said up thread, it's a new topic.
Funny how you chose Islam for your oh-so-abstract thought exercise.
| 462 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:53:19pm |
re: #437 Nimed
Lots of Muslim countries have legal systems that impose religion based discrimination. Horrifying stuff. Let's do it too!
I see that said in all seriousness. How can we take the legal rights of Muslims in the West seriously, when Saudi is...well...Saudi?
You know, I never in my whole life aspired to be a citizen of country that takes moral direction from Saudi Fuckin' Arabia.
| 463 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:53:34pm |
re: #460 albusteve
+1 for keeping your tongue in your mouth...you go!
What about your own tongue in my mouthyou go?
| 464 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:53:43pm |
re: #438 albusteve
I'm looking for a game...this .300 shooting is a bust...I want to see Kobe with his hands on his knees gasping, trying to play defense...I want to see some action in the paint, rough and tumble BB
I'm waiting for the new thread...I promise you this..Kobe is a top 5 guard of all time in Basketball...There isn't a prayer in the world you are ever going to see him bent over with his hands on his knees out of breathe...
I promise you and will send a check for a Billion Dollars to you upon a picture of him exhausted...
It's a war tonight...The only way anybody is going to the bench is because of fouls
| 465 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:54:06pm |
re: #454 researchok
In the UK, utilization of the Beth Din is optional. The Muslim community wishes to make utilization of Sharia mandatory for Muslims
This should be illegal, and never allowed.
The issue of Sharia Courts in Britain are many, not the least if which is who will control the courts. There is infighting between the moderates and the more stringent communities as well as the Arab and Pakistani communities, for example.
Multiple versions would appear to me to be the simplest answer to that. BUt if they want enforcement, they want something that's independent of the main law, which should not be allowed.
Each group want the the government to bless their efforts.
I think arbitration law is simpler here in the US. Anyone can agree on an independent arbitrator. Constitutional rules must still be followed. With the exception of automatic arbitration being a requirement in employment contracts, which I think is unfair, the system works pretty well.
| 467 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:54:36pm |
re: #442 Walter L. Newton
WHat the fuck are you talking about? I wasn't talking about sacrifice, parents, I mentioned nothing like that in my comment... all I asked could you imagine a time when it is possible that Islam over step the line in this country and we do find a way to ban it?
My comment was not in reference to anything you siad up thread, or anything anyone said up thread, it's a new topic.
No. I can't imagine that situation.
| 468 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:55:05pm |
re: #464 HoosierHoops
I'm waiting for the new thread...I promise you this..Kobe is a top 5 guard of all time in Basketball...There isn't a prayer in the world you are ever going to see him bent over with his hands on his knees out of breathe...
I promise you and will send a check for a Billion Dollars to you upon a picture of him exhausted...
It's a war tonight...The only way anybody is going to the bench is because of fouls
| 469 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:55:06pm |
re: #467 SanFranciscoZionist
A blood cult that liked to murder babies, that I could get behind prosecuting.
| 470 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:55:41pm |
| 471 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:56:06pm |
re: #457 windsagio
I think that the motivations are actually whats important. But its a style thing, probably :p
Motivations may be important, but you can't discern them through the interwebs. Not unless you're psychic. You can hazard a few guesses, that's about all. You can, however, examine people's actual arguments and what they actually say.
| 473 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:56:18pm |
re: #464 HoosierHoops
I'm waiting for the new thread...I promise you this..Kobe is a top 5 guard of all time in Basketball...There isn't a prayer in the world you are ever going to see him bent over with his hands on his knees out of breathe...
I promise you and will send a check for a Billion Dollars to you upon a picture of him exhausted...
It's a war tonight...The only way anybody is going to the bench is because of fouls
since I'm speaking figuratively, just make it a cool million bro...don't get carried away
| 474 |
Nimed Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:56:24pm |
re: #452 Obdicut
Why are you sure everyone agrees with you?
It's obviously false, and a pretty lame rhetorical device.
| 475 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:56:36pm |
re: #454 researchok
In the UK, utilization of the Beth Din is optional. The Muslim community wishes to make utilization of Sharia mandatory for Muslims. Further, Sharia proponents want the courts to have actual enforcement powers (backed up and supported by the state), unlike Beth in rules.
Can you give me some info on this, particularly in the matter of making Sharia mandatory for Muslims? That, clearly, would be a line far too far.
| 476 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:56:46pm |
They're really hatin' me on Twitter tonight.
@lizardoid Fuck you, Chuck, you whiny bitch [Link: ow.ly...] @AmPowerBlog
| 477 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:57:13pm |
re: #471 Obdicut
Motivations may be important, but you can't discern them through the interwebs. Not unless you're psychic. You can hazard a few guesses, that's about all. You can, however, examine people's actual arguments and what they actually say.
I feel that you can build a good profile over months of continual contact.
You just have to be willing to apologize when proven wrong >>
| 478 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:57:22pm |
| 479 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:57:49pm |
re: #467 SanFranciscoZionist
No. I can't imagine that situation.
nor can I...these hypotheticals people argue about is a waste of bandwidth
| 480 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:57:56pm |
re: #395 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm still waiting for evidence of your assertion that sharia is static. Let's start there. If a case comes before an imam, what resources does he turn to in order to determine the law concerning the case? Is it regional, or universal? What books are valid when considering the law? What is the cut-off date by which sharia was codified?
My understanding (and I am not an expert) is that Shariah Law is treated by the Imam as being internally just and complete, thereby excluding the need to interpret it in the light of other legal systems. This means that he will have difficulty looking to the norms of the greater civil society or the greater civil law. Just look at Shariah's treatment of women in matrimonial law and estate succession law - isn't it obvious that they are completely inward looking? And look at their treatment of gays - how could they be doing anything but ignoring the advances in the civil legal system?
I say show me the money, Islam. Until then, no thanks.
| 481 |
researchok Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:58:01pm |
re: #465 Obdicut
I think arbitration law is simpler here in the US. Anyone can agree on an independent arbitrator. Constitutional rules must still be followed. With the exception of automatic arbitration being a requirement in employment contracts, which I think is unfair, the system works pretty well.
Absolutely!
The UK/Sharia thing is a debacle. See this.
| 482 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:58:02pm |
re: #461 Nimed
Funny how you chose Islam for your oh-so-abstract thought exercise.
Ok... any religion... funny who I don't give a shit... insert your favorite radical sect here... " ".
| 483 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:58:27pm |
re: #479 albusteve
nor can I...these hypotheticals people argue about is a waste of bandwidth
What if there never were any hypotheticals?
| 484 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:58:33pm |
Funny thing is, I have gotten just as much abuse (if not more) from the more lefty of the leftists. Makes me think I've got it about right.
| 485 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:58:33pm |
| 486 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:58:42pm |
re: #471 Obdicut
Anyways, I'd bet $$$ that everyone on here makes these judgements constantly, they're just too polite/whatever to actually mention their observations.
| 487 |
brookly red Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:59:14pm |
re: #477 windsagio
I feel that you can build a good profile over months of continual contact.
You just have to be willing to apologize when proven wrong >>
well said, I take back most of the bad things I said about you... ;)
| 488 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:59:39pm |
re: #482 Walter L. Newton
I did, and you asked me why I wasn't talking about Islam :D
(OK the one I came up with didn't actually exist, but still...)
| 489 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 5:59:53pm |
re: #469 windsagio
A blood cult that liked to murder babies, that I could get behind prosecuting.
Yeah. I'm against murdering babies, personally, from like, a whole philosophical angle.
I'm also against murdering puppies and old people.
And, well, mostly against murder in general, although I do think that occasionally that old Texas line does hold, and there are a few folks that need killin'. But basically, murder, right out.
| 490 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:00:04pm |
re: #481 researchok
I would be very willing to believe that there's systemic bias against women's testimony in Sharia courts, definitely, and that's the sort of thing that should get them shut down. I'd note that that investigation was launched by moderate Muslims, which is very heartening.
I do think that there's some systemic biases in terms of testimony here in the US, as well, that we could address.
| 491 |
researchok Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:00:06pm |
re: #484 Charles
Funny thing is, I have gotten just as much abuse if not more from the more lefty of the leftists. Makes me think I've got it about right.
No truer words!
| 492 |
albusteve Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:00:40pm |
re: #484 Charles
Funny thing is, I have gotten just as much abuse if not more from the more lefty of the leftists. Makes me think I've got it about right.
it's like dicking around with your guitar and amp, trying to dial in exactly what you want...when it seems like everybody hates you, you just know you are well respected
| 493 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:00:52pm |
re: #476 Charles
They're really hatin' me on Twitter tonight.
These people are awesome. They can make me, as I sit here arguing about British arbitration law on the Internet for no good reason, feel as though I have a life.
| 494 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:01:09pm |
re: #490 Obdicut
I would be very willing to believe that there's systemic bias against women's testimony in Sharia courts, definitely, and that's the sort of thing that should get them shut down. I'd note that that investigation was launched by moderate Muslims, which is very heartening.
I do think that there's some systemic biases in terms of testimony here in the US, as well, that we could address.
What did you have in mind regarding your second point?
| 495 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:01:14pm |
re: #487 brookly red
haha :D
What we say doesn't really matter anyways, except for as an exercise. I can think of... one time in my tenure on here where a really strongly held position was recanted publicly (somebody was under the impression that McCarthyism was good).
| 496 |
researchok Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:01:43pm |
re: #490 Obdicut
I would be very willing to believe that there's systemic bias against women's testimony in Sharia courts, definitely, and that's the sort of thing that should get them shut down. I'd note that that investigation was launched by moderate Muslims, which is very heartening.
I do think that there's some systemic biases in terms of testimony here in the US, as well, that we could address.
Yup.
Personally, I think the Sharia courts might be a good idea- as long as they were patterned after the Beth Din model, which does not usurp national rule of law.
| 497 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:02:15pm |
re: #496 researchok
Personally, I think the Sharia courts might be a good idea- as long as they were patterned after the Beth Din model, which does not usurp national rule of law.
Which they specifically are, so you're in luck!
| 498 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:02:21pm |
re: #416 Obdicut
Ugh.
Spare said:
and I replied:Thank you for being honest that you do not agree that Islam should have equal legal protection.
I reject that position utterly. Islam should have equal legal protection to any other religion.
I did not say that Islam does not deserve equal protection. I said it would be unjust to afford equal enforceability to an inferior and barbaric legal code.
Equal protection does not mean equal results for unequal systems.
| 500 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:03:07pm |
re: #494 alexknyc
What did you have in mind regarding your second point?
Oh, just I'd love for an actual study to be done in the US of biases, against, for example, uneducated people, people from Appalachia, blacks who speak non-standard English, non-English speakers, etc.
YOu can't get away from a certain amount of systemic bias, of course, but it'd be good to know where we stand.
Oh, have I shown you this?
[Link: implicit.harvard.edu...]
It's a demonstration of language-based implicit associations that we have towards various groups. It's neat, and if you try it out, you're helping out scientific research.
| 501 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:03:23pm |
re: #489 SanFranciscoZionist
Like I said above, people that let their kids die of easily treated diseases to prove a religious point? Also not a big fan of them.
| 502 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:03:38pm |
re: #480 Spare O'Lake
My understanding (and I am not an expert) is that Shariah Law is treated by the Imam as being internally just and complete, thereby excluding the need to interpret it in the light of other legal systems. This means that he will have difficulty looking to the norms of the greater civil society or the greater civil law. Just look at Shariah's treatment of women in matrimonial law and estate succession law - isn't it obvious that they are completely inward looking? And look at their treatment of gays - how could they be doing anything but ignoring the advances in the civil legal system?
I say show me the money, Islam. Until then, no thanks.
In other words, you know about as much about the actual internal structure of Sharia as I do?
Maybe someone here should take a class or something. (Does anyone know of a good class? One of the schools up on God Hill in Berkeley must have something.)
What would you say to someone who pointed to the problem of agunot as a reason that Judaism is 'totally inward looking' and prejudiced against women, and therefore should not be permitted legal status?
| 503 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:04:49pm |
re: #482 Walter L. Newton
Ok... any religion... funny who I don't give a shit... insert your favorite radical sect here... " ".
If you breaks the law, you gets your ass arrested.
If you don't breaks the law, you can follow whatever freakazoid religion suits your fancy.
That's my take. But I'm from Northern California, where creating a new religion for you is just our way of saying "Hello."
| 504 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:05:10pm |
re: #498 Spare O'Lake
I said it would be unjust to afford equal enforceability to an inferior and barbaric legal code.
No, you really didn't.
You said:
In your zeal to extend to Islam equal legal protection, you overlook its fundamentally repugnant and inflexible aspects.
What does 'equal enforceability" mean?
| 505 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:05:13pm |
re: #484 Charles
Funny thing is, I have gotten just as much abuse (if not more) from the more lefty of the leftists. Makes me think I've got it about right.
A good legal result is when both sides are pissed off.
| 506 |
researchok Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:05:35pm |
re: #497 windsagio
Which they specifically are, so you're in luck!
Supposedly, yes but in practice there are problems. That's why Muslim women and gays are up in arms. Some courts are moderate. some not so much- as those are the official courts.
There is a whole system of unofficial courts that pass fatwas that scare the crap out some segments of the community.
| 508 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:05:53pm |
re: #488 windsagio
I did, and you asked me why I wasn't talking about Islam :D
(OK the one I came up with didn't actually exist, but still...)
Whatever...
I can see the time when, if any religious sect in this country, could be associated with terrorist or criminal activity, some sort of activity that threatens to interrupt the social order, and it can be shown to be organized and part of the theology, then I can see our government finding a method to ban that religion.
And guess what? I imagine that you will find the majority in favor of it, if the situation has become as severe as the scenario I am describing.
And I can see that as a good thing.
| 509 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:06:44pm |
re: #506 researchok
As a homosexual, if you agree to sharia arbitration, you need your head examined.
| 510 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:07:42pm |
re: #503 SanFranciscoZionist
If you breaks the law, you gets your ass arrested.
If you don't breaks the law, you can follow whatever freakazoid religion suits your fancy.
That's my take. But I'm from Northern California, where creating a new religion for you is just our way of saying "Hello."
Have you seen the Martin Mull/Tuesday Weld film "Serial"? Tommy Smothers is Reverend Spike.
| 511 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:07:47pm |
re: #500 Obdicut
Oh, just I'd love for an actual study to be done in the US of biases, against, for example, uneducated people, people from Appalachia, blacks who speak non-standard English, non-English speakers, etc.
YOu can't get away from a certain amount of systemic bias, of course, but it'd be good to know where we stand.
Oh, have I shown you this?
[Link: implicit.harvard.edu...]
It's a demonstration of language-based implicit associations that we have towards various groups. It's neat, and if you try it out, you're helping out scientific research.
Yes you have.
I found it fascinating.
How would you go about eliminating that?
I served on a jury for a case that had testimony from an undercover police officer. We were all asked if we could judge the testimony the same way we'd judge anyone else's. We all agreed.
In the jury room, five people believed the cop because he was a cop and three disbelieved the cop because he was a cop.
| 512 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:08:00pm |
re: #324 Spare O'Lake
Crude and dense as usual, but not completely unworthy of response.
Sharia Law was codified in many centuries ago and it does not permit for itself to evolve and be interpreted in the progressive and forward-looking ways that the domestic law and Jewish law permit. That is a huge problem with Sharia and Islam - it is static and stuck in the dark ages.
Are you talking about Shi'a, Suffi, or Sunni or just assuming that all types of courts are identical? They are not, one of the pillars of law Shi'a Sharia courts is 'Aql, or dialectical reasoning, whereas most Sunni courts use Qiyas, or analogical reasoning instead. Where the Shi'a court is supposed to bring its own, human intellect to bear on the questions before it, a Sunni court is supposed to find the most fitting analogy in a few select texts.
In addition Shi'a court system retained the concept of Ijtihad, the right of the jurist to apply their own interpretations of what those select religious texts really mean. Also, although their focus is far more on imitation, in practice Sunni courts are open to some level of Ijtihad.
| 513 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:08:08pm |
re: #509 windsagio
As a homosexual, if you agree to sharia arbitration, you need your head examined.
That can be done off-site.
| 514 |
researchok Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:08:30pm |
re: #490 Obdicut
I would be very willing to believe that there's systemic bias against women's testimony in Sharia courts, definitely, and that's the sort of thing that should get them shut down. I'd note that that investigation was launched by moderate Muslims, which is very heartening.
I do think that there's some systemic biases in terms of testimony here in the US, as well, that we could address.
Whatever biases there are here can be litigated and eradicated.
Biases in Sharia courts are not so easily dispensed.
| 515 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:08:59pm |
re: #509 windsagio
As a homosexual, if you agree to sharia arbitration, you need your head examined.
I'd like to note for the benefit of the board that as I got my haircut at Edo Salon on Haight Street, San Francisco, everyone there agreed with the proposition that any gay dude supporting the middle-Eastern flavor of Islam is a fucking moron, and that Israel, which allows gays to serve openly, is far, far better on gay rights.
This is about as lefty a place as you get, but they're, you know, sane, rational people.
| 516 |
researchok Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:09:29pm |
re: #509 windsagio
As a homosexual, if you agree to sharia arbitration, you need your head examined.
Or a woman! Your testimony is not valid
| 517 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:11:17pm |
re: #511 alexknyc
In the jury room, five people believed the cop because he was a cop and three disbelieved the cop because he was a cop.
Heh. Yeah. But even then, you get a percentage; even that is useful. What to do to fix it is, of course, an entirely different problem, but that's part of where judges come in.
There really is very little way to make sure everything is fair, but the least we can do is make sure we actually know how the system is tilted.
| 518 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:11:43pm |
re: #496 researchok
Yup.
Personally, I think the Sharia courts might be a good idea- as long as they were patterned after the Beth Din model, which does not usurp national rule of law.
I think that one of the core issues, and I really would like to hear about this from a real scholar of Islam (and I don't mean Mr. Spencer), is that there's a core principle in the interpretation of Jewish law that states, simply, the law of the nation you live in is law. (This applies in criminal and civil matters, not religious ones, hence, halacha did not go on hold while practicing Judaism was illegal under the Nazis or the Soviets, say.)
We have this core principle because during the time the law was being expanded into its current ridiculously complex and still-under-construction form, we had no country of our own. Islam is in a different situation, being practiced in Islamic theocracies, Islamic semi-democracies, Islamic secular dictatorships, and also by Muslim populations in non-Muslim majority countries.
I do not know if there is a sharia equivalent to 'dina malchut dina', or what rules relating to such things are in place. I assume they must exist, simply because pious Muslims manage to live in non-Muslim countries, but I do not know to what extent, and what their status is in the eyes of, say, the mainstream Egyptian imam.
| 519 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:11:54pm |
re: #515 Obdicut
Oh, and they're all gay, in case I need to clarify that the hairdressers at a San Franciscan hair salon were gay.
| 520 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:12:47pm |
re: #498 Spare O'Lake
I did not say that Islam does not deserve equal protection. I said it would be unjust to afford equal enforceability to an inferior and barbaric legal code.
Equal protection does not mean equal results for unequal systems.
I just don't see a way for a country to define one religion's legal code as 'inferior and barbaric' compared to another, although since England is not bound by the Establishment Clause, it might well be possible.
| 521 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:12:55pm |
re: #518 SanFranciscoZionist
I believe CuriousLurker said that she( she, right?) would not like to live under Sharia law. Maybe we can ask her that very question at some point, or at least ask her to ask someone she respects.
| 522 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:13:30pm |
re: #501 windsagio
Like I said above, people that let their kids die of easily treated diseases to prove a religious point? Also not a big fan of them.
That does worry me. And people who let their underage daughters get married off to old men with dozens of wives. Also bothers me.
| 523 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:14:40pm |
re: #511 alexknyc
I actually have some issues with the way those tests are performed.
Specifically I suspect if the order of the tests were reversed, the results would also be reversed. On the other hand, they're expert researchers, I'm just some chump :p
| 524 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:14:44pm |
re: #512 goddamnedfrank
Are you talking about Shi'a, Suffi, or Sunni or just assuming that all types of courts are identical? They are not, one of the pillars of law Shi'a Sharia courts is 'Aql, or dialectical reasoning, whereas most Sunni courts use Qiyas, or analogical reasoning instead. Where the Shi'a court is supposed to bring its own, human intellect to bear on the questions before it, a Sunni court is supposed to find the most fitting analogy in a few select texts.
In addition Shi'a court system retained the concept of Ijtihad, the right of the jurist to apply their own interpretations of what those select religious texts really mean. Also, although their focus is far more on imitation, in practice Sunni courts are open to some level of Ijtihad.
According to Irshad Manji, Ijtihad is on life support. Sadly, radical Islam has stifled the expansion of any progressive forces within Islam. We can't just Google away the current reality of radical Islam's stranglehold on much of Islam.
| 525 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:15:11pm |
re: #506 researchok
Supposedly, yes but in practice there are problems. That's why Muslim women and gays are up in arms. Some courts are moderate. some not so much- as those are the official courts.
There is a whole system of unofficial courts that pass fatwas that scare the crap out some segments of the community.
And that, I think, is the real core issue here--whether there's a way to make Sharia courts legally viable without giving them power over community members who choose not to live in such a way.
| 526 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:15:16pm |
re: #521 Obdicut
Came up last night, as I remember the answer it was 'right now no, but its something I have to give alot of thought to'.
| 527 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:16:01pm |
re: #514 researchok
Whatever biases there are here can be litigated and eradicated.
Biases in Sharia courts are not so easily dispensed.
True dat.
| 528 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:16:07pm |
re: #523 windsagio
I actually have some issues with the way those tests are performed.
Specifically I suspect if the order of the tests were reversed, the results would also be reversed. On the other hand, they're expert researchers, I'm just some chump :p
I had a similar reaction to the personal identifiers being at the beginning instead of at the end but I'm just some chump too.
| 529 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:16:22pm |
re: #509 windsagio
As a homosexual, if you agree to sharia arbitration, you need your head examined.
"Look, my dad already said 'Don't be gay.' You got anything to add to that? No? OK, see you in civil court."
| 530 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:16:24pm |
re: #525 SanFranciscoZionist
Except we can't treat religions differently without really good reasons, at least legally.
| 531 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:16:59pm |
re: #512 goddamnedfrank
Are you talking about Shi'a, Suffi, or Sunni or just assuming that all types of courts are identical? They are not, one of the pillars of law Shi'a Sharia courts is 'Aql, or dialectical reasoning, whereas most Sunni courts use Qiyas, or analogical reasoning instead. Where the Shi'a court is supposed to bring its own, human intellect to bear on the questions before it, a Sunni court is supposed to find the most fitting analogy in a few select texts.
In addition Shi'a court system retained the concept of Ijtihad, the right of the jurist to apply their own interpretations of what those select religious texts really mean. Also, although their focus is far more on imitation, in practice Sunni courts are open to some level of Ijtihad.
Oh, hey, you actually know something about this stuff? What should I read?
| 532 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:17:40pm |
re: #515 Obdicut
I'd like to note for the benefit of the board that as I got my haircut at Edo Salon on Haight Street, San Francisco, everyone there agreed with the proposition that any gay dude supporting the middle-Eastern flavor of Islam is a fucking moron, and that Israel, which allows gays to serve openly, is far, far better on gay rights.
This is about as lefty a place as you get, but they're, you know, sane, rational people.
Glad to hear it. I need to remind myself that QUIT is not the whole story around here.
| 533 |
researchok Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:17:59pm |
re: #518 SanFranciscoZionist
I think that one of the core issues, and I really would like to hear about this from a real scholar of Islam (and I don't mean Mr. Spencer), is that there's a core principle in the interpretation of Jewish law that states, simply, the law of the nation you live in is law. (This applies in criminal and civil matters, not religious ones, hence, halacha did not go on hold while practicing Judaism was illegal under the Nazis or the Soviets, say.)
We have this core principle because during the time the law was being expanded into its current ridiculously complex and still-under-construction form, we had no country of our own. Islam is in a different situation, being practiced in Islamic theocracies, Islamic semi-democracies, Islamic secular dictatorships, and also by Muslim populations in non-Muslim majority countries.
I do not know if there is a sharia equivalent to 'dina malchut dina', or what rules relating to such things are in place. I assume they must exist, simply because pious Muslims manage to live in non-Muslim countries, but I do not know to what extent, and what their status is in the eyes of, say, the mainstream Egyptian imam.
Simply stated, the core difference between Sharia and Bet Din courts is in application. For the Jewish community, usage of the Beth Din is optional. Proponents of Sharia Courts wants to make their usage binding on all Muslims, effectively marginalizing local leagal systems.
See my 454.
| 534 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:18:28pm |
re: #524 Spare O'Lake
According to Irshad Manji, Ijtihad is on life support. Sadly, radical Islam has stifled the expansion of any progressive forces within Islam. We can't just Google away the current reality of radical Islam's stranglehold on much of Islam.
We can't Google it away, but maybe we can blast that stranglehold full of holes.
| 535 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:18:53pm |
re: #530 windsagio
Except we can't treat religions differently without really good reasons, at least legally.
Even then, I think it's only that we can treat behaviors differently but not religions.
We can't outlaw Mormonism but we can outlaw polygamy.
| 536 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:19:22pm |
re: #531 SanFranciscoZionist
I think what he's largely talking about there are the Sunnah.
I've read some about it in the past, but don't feel quite qualified to hold forth on the subject.
My memory/impression is that most of Sharia (especially with Sunnis) is based more on the Sunnah than on the Koran.
| 537 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:19:24pm |
re: #532 SanFranciscoZionist
Glad to hear it. I need to remind myself that QUIT is not the whole story around here.
It shows, too, I think, that Israel really could do better on the PR front, since my friends there knew that Israel allowed gays to serve and liked it very much.
Challenge those Gaza aid ships to have some queers on them, insist on having those Muslims bringing the ships in affirm that gays should have equal rights and that there's no problem with homosexuality, as a condition of entry.
| 538 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:20:05pm |
re: #520 SanFranciscoZionist
I just don't see a way for a country to define one religion's legal code as 'inferior and barbaric' compared to another, although since England is not bound by the Establishment Clause, it might well be possible.
When we talk about legal enforceability of arbitration awards, the courts would look at whether the arbitration result is in general accordance with the domestic law and whether the consent to arbitrate was genuine.
It's been a good discussion...BBL.
| 539 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:20:07pm |
re: #535 alexknyc
But if we'd offered Christians (or Wiccans) the right to special arbitration courts, we coudln't deny them to mormons.
| 540 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:20:15pm |
re: #533 researchok
Except that's not entirely fair to say, since, as you said, some moderates want Sharia courts, but not the same flavor as those the fundamentalists want.
So you can't simply say that everyone who wants Sharia courts wants them in the same way.
| 541 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:21:05pm |
re: #533 researchok
Simply stated, the core difference between Sharia and Bet Din courts is in application. For the Jewish community, usage of the Beth Din is optional. Proponents of Sharia Courts wants to make their usage binding on all Muslims, effectively marginalizing local leagal systems.
See my 454.
Yes, I saw your 454. I asked for information on how this was actually being played out legally.
| 542 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:21:32pm |
OH Totally OT:
Remember the Red and Black, the coffeeshop that asked a police officer to leave?
Their business doubled in the 2 days after the story broke.
| 543 |
researchok Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:21:38pm |
re: #537 Obdicut
It shows, too, I think, that Israel really could do better on the PR front, since my friends there knew that Israel allowed gays to serve and liked it very much.
Challenge those Gaza aid ships to have some queers on them, insist on having those Muslims bringing the ships in affirm that gays should have equal rights and that there's no problem with homosexuality, as a condition of entry.
As they in French, good luck with that.
The Palestinians have an awful record with gays. More than a few have been granted asylum in isrqael predicated on fears of persecution.
| 544 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:21:54pm |
re: #539 windsagio
But if we'd offered Christians (or Wiccans) the right to special arbitration courts, we coudln't deny them to mormons.
Mormons are Christians, aren't they?
But yes, your basic point is correct-- under the First Amendment, religions have to be treated equally.
| 545 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:22:32pm |
re: #541 SanFranciscoZionist
And again, people also ask for us to expel all the Jews from the US. Doesn't mean many people take those folks seriously.
| 546 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:22:53pm |
re: #543 researchok
I just think it would be a good way to demonstrate to the modern 'left' that they shouldn't be sweating and spilling their blood for these people.
| 547 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:23:19pm |
re: #544 alexknyc
That first bit is touchy.
Most Christians don't consider Mormons christian >>
(I think most religious scholars do tho)
| 548 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:23:20pm |
re: #544 alexknyc
Mormons are Christians, aren't they?
But yes, your basic point is correct-- under the First Amendment, religions have to be treated equally.
I can't quite figure out what Mormons are. To my outsider's eye, they look a lot like evangelical Christians with some extra prophets and really clean living, but people tell me that's not it...
| 549 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:23:39pm |
re: #537 Obdicut
It shows, too, I think, that Israel really could do better on the PR front, since my friends there knew that Israel allowed gays to serve and liked it very much.
Challenge those Gaza aid ships to have some queers on them, insist on having those Muslims bringing the ships in affirm that gays should have equal rights and that there's no problem with homosexuality, as a condition of entry.
Great idea. Send in a boatload of homosexuals to be slaughtered in Gaza.
| 550 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:23:50pm |
re: #548 SanFranciscoZionist
Thats a good way to really piss off an evangelical, if you ever wanna do that for some reason ;)
| 551 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:24:00pm |
re: #545 windsagio
And again, people also ask for us to expel all the Jews from the US. Doesn't mean many people take those folks seriously.
I take them seriously. I just know my side will win, because God and the Constitution are both with us, and there are a bazillion times more of us than them.
| 552 |
researchok Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:24:02pm |
re: #542 windsagio
OH Totally OT:
Remember the Red and Black, the coffeeshop that asked a police officer to leave?
Their business doubled in the 2 days after the story broke.
If I were the cops, I'd keep a car parked there all day and night.
Cops ought to be able to eat in peace. He wasn't hassling anyone.
In any event, I'll bet the owner would appreciate a response to a 911 call.
| 553 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:24:13pm |
re: #548 SanFranciscoZionist
I can't quite figure out what Mormons are. To my outsider's eye, they look a lot like evangelical Christians with some extra prophets and really clean living, but people tell me that's not it...
They call themselves Christian. No one else gets to say.
| 554 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:24:27pm |
re: #549 Spare O'Lake
Great idea. Send in a boatload of homosexuals to be slaughtered in Gaza.
That was not in the least fucking bit what I said, Spare.
What a load.
| 555 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:24:27pm |
Really gotta run. Thanks for a good discussion, folks.
| 557 |
researchok Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:24:54pm |
re: #549 Spare O'Lake
Great idea. Send in a boatload of homosexuals to be slaughtered in Gaza.
That would probably happen. Hamas publicly executes gays.
| 558 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:25:34pm |
re: #551 SanFranciscoZionist
Fair enough, you know what I mean tho :P
They're not a meaningful force for anything.
| 559 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:25:42pm |
re: #549 Spare O'Lake
Great idea. Send in a boatload of homosexuals to be slaughtered in Gaza.
Oh, Hamas isn't going to hurt a bunch of starry-eyed Western tourists. There are always a bunch of gay and lesbian whack jobs on any of these expeditions they take. Hamas knows it, I'm quite sure, but doesn't care, they're going home. The Westerners never quite figure out what would happen to them if they were locals.
Feh.
| 560 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:26:04pm |
re: #552 researchok
We're not too down on police harassment in this town :D
| 561 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:26:20pm |
re: #550 windsagio
Thats a good way to really piss off an evangelical, if you ever wanna do that for some reason ;)
Most of the ones I actually know are friends or work acquaintances...
| 562 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:26:49pm |
re: #552 researchok
If I were the cops, I'd keep a car parked there all day and night.
Cops ought to be able to eat in peace. He wasn't hassling anyone.
In any event, I'll bet the owner would appreciate a response to a 911 call.
I felt the same way when the story broke but since no one actually involved has any hard feelings one way or another, I don't see any need for me to have any either.
| 563 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:26:50pm |
re: #557 researchok
That would probably happen. Hamas publicly executes gays.
re: #559 SanFranciscoZionist
Oh, Hamas isn't going to hurt a bunch of starry-eyed Western tourists. There are always a bunch of gay and lesbian whack jobs on any of these expeditions they take. Hamas knows it, I'm quite sure, but doesn't care, they're going home. The Westerners never quite figure out what would happen to them if they were locals.
Worth doublequoting, because its good to remember that while Hamas is pretty awful, they're not actually total fools.
| 564 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:28:04pm |
re: #561 SanFranciscoZionist
When I was growing up, we had a whole bunch of books about how things like Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons Weren't Really Christian...
So I know alot about that particular bit... Well from one POV anyways :)
| 565 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:28:06pm |
re: #542 windsagio
OH Totally OT:
Remember the Red and Black, the coffeeshop that asked a police officer to leave?
Their business doubled in the 2 days after the story broke.
Thanks for the update. Portland officially makes my 'asshole city' list. I don't know why they'd get so much business after doing that. Here in Chicagoland, a coffee shop that told a cop to leave would be shunned.
| 566 |
researchok Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:28:44pm |
re: #563 windsagio
Worth doublequoting, because its good to remember that while Hamas is pretty awful, they're not actually total fools.
True- they wouldn't touch the westerners.
| 567 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:29:21pm |
re: #564 windsagio
When I was growing up, we had a whole bunch of books about how things like Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons Weren't Really Christian...
So I know alot about that particular bit... Well from one POV anyways :)
My (Deep) Southern Baptist friend was raised to think Catholics aren't Christian.
| 569 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:29:46pm |
re: #557 researchok
That would probably happen. Hamas publicly executes gays.
Oh for god's sake that's not the point. Hamas executes liberals, too.
| 570 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:29:59pm |
re: #565 Dark_Falcon
Now now, its my the city where I live and love :p
Alot of that business was probably lookeyloos anyways, dunno if the surge kept up or not.
I personally think its damn cool, but I suspect we come from VERY different places as it comes to law enforcement ;)
| 571 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:30:23pm |
re: #567 Decatur Deb
My (Deep) Southern Baptist friend was raised to think Catholics aren't Christian.
Oh believe me, they were in the books too!
Veneration of saints and all that.
| 573 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:30:39pm |
re: #564 windsagio
When I was growing up, we had a whole bunch of books about how things like Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons Weren't Really Christian...
So I know alot about that particular bit... Well from one POV anyways :)
What were you, if you don't mind me asking?
| 574 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:32:34pm |
re: #573 JasonA
Evangelical NOS. We kinda bounced around between Pentecostal and Evangelical Presbyterian churches, mostly.
It was the late '70s, early '80s. "Late Great planet earth" and such. The parents have calmed down some since then ;)
| 575 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:33:10pm |
re: #570 windsagio
Now now, its my the city where I live and love :p
Alot of that business was probably lookeyloos anyways, dunno if the surge kept up or not.
I personally think its damn cool, but I suspect we come from VERY different places as it comes to law enforcement ;)
That's true. That kind of overt anti-police sentiment is not normally seen around here. It's normally confined to obscure radical leftist groups. Normally in Chicago even very liberal business owners try to cultivate the police as patrons. Some that in anti-crime, of course, since criminals tend to avoid spot where cops are often seen,
| 576 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:33:48pm |
re: #574 windsagio
Evangelical NOS. We kinda bounced around between Pentecostal and Evangelical Presbyterian churches, mostly.
It was the late '70s, early '80s. "Late Great planet earth" and such. The parents have calmed down some since then ;)
Oh. I was Catholic. You weren't really Christian to me. :P
| 577 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:33:59pm |
re: #575 Dark_Falcon
Its just a cultural difference really.
Portland is probably alot safer than Chicago too, which would add to it, I'd imagine.
| 578 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:34:02pm |
re: #564 windsagio
When I was growing up, we had a whole bunch of books about how things like Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons Weren't Really Christian...
So I know alot about that particular bit... Well from one POV anyways :)
I was a Jehovah's Witness...
| 579 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:34:42pm |
re: #576 JasonA
Funny how it works :D
In my head I still don't count Mormons as christian (some things are just too hard to change I guess). Saying Catholics aren't is just crazy, of course :)
| 580 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:35:23pm |
re: #578 Walter L. Newton
I was a Jehovah's Witness...
I always try to be nice to the ones that come door to door. Damn tough work, and you must get so much abuse and spite thrown at you.
| 581 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:35:44pm |
re: #578 Walter L. Newton
And... really? I can't tell if this is another story or not :P
| 582 |
Nimed Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:36:14pm |
| 584 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:36:55pm |
re: #579 windsagio
Funny how it works :D
In my head I still don't count Mormons as christian
Soo... I'm wondering now if you'd be as mad at me for calling Joseph Smith a fraud as you were with Cato for his comment about Mohammed. I'm not baiting you, and I won't think you a hypocrite if the answer's no.
| 585 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:37:20pm |
Think we can maintain, or should I go get some food? I can't actually watch the Basketball, and seeing a bunch of people argue about something you can't see is kinda frustrating >>
| 586 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:37:45pm |
re: #581 windsagio
And... really? I can't tell if this is another story or not :P
No... it's true... I even took a vacation once to new York City, not to see any sights (I was born and raised in NYC), but to spend a week touring and getting to know Bethel (in Brooklyn), the HQ of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania.
| 587 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:38:10pm |
re: #582 Nimed
Well, you're still a pain in the ass. :)
///
Film of Walter being nice to a customer:
| 588 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:39:03pm |
re: #584 JasonA
I don't think 'fraud' was the word being objected to.
| 589 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:39:24pm |
| 590 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:39:46pm |
re: #584 JasonA
I'm not really comfortable answering that question, because I feel it's all kinds of messed up to attack other major religions.
That being said, as to what I actually believe... The story behind Smith really doesn't add up, but he might actually have believed it. Brigham Young I really don't like however.
Read that as you will :)
| 591 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:39:48pm |
re: #577 windsagio
Its just a cultural difference really.
Portland is probably alot safer than Chicago too, which would add to it, I'd imagine.
That's sadly true. Most of Chicago isn't really dangerous, but the murder rate is much higher than Portland. Still, the shop owner's actions rub me the wrong way. It's contrary to the way I've always lived and been taught.
| 592 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:40:35pm |
re: #591 Dark_Falcon
For me its different, I've been jacked around by asshole cops several times in my life, but I haven't been mugged or needed one yet :)
| 593 |
Nimed Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:40:59pm |
re: #584 JasonA
Soo... I'm wondering now if you'd be as mad at me for calling Joseph Smith a fraud as you were with Cato for his comment about Mohammed. I'm not baiting you, and I won't think you a hypocrite if the answer's no.
Good point. But I think the issue here is that nobobdy considers Joseph Smith to be in the heavy-weight category. Look:
Mohammed, Abraham, Joseph Smith, Jesus, Buda.
He just doesn't belong.
/
| 594 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:41:26pm |
re: #587 Decatur Deb
Dunham... he's totally old school variety, which is a dying art, and he is at the top of the game... there are none really better than him... I miss variety...
| 595 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:41:45pm |
re: #588 Obdicut
I do tend to come down pretty hard on people harshing others' religions, so I don't find the question unreasonable.
That being said, you're also right. "Fraud" wasn't really the problem with that discussion ;)
| 596 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:41:53pm |
re: #593 Nimed
Good point. But I think the issue here is that nobobdy considers Joseph Smith to be in the heavy-weight category. Look:
Mohammed, Abraham, Joseph Smith, Jesus, Buda.
He just doesn't belong.
/
Then why's he a member of the Super Best Friends, huh? Answer that Mr. smartie pants!
| 597 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:42:17pm |
re: #595 windsagio
I do tend to come down pretty hard on people harshing others' religions, so I don't find the question unreasonable.
That being said, you're also right. "Fraud" wasn't really the problem with that discussion ;)
Well, I don't.
| 598 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:42:31pm |
re: #589 JasonA
Well, it's still an insult.
Sure. It's on a different level, though. I could-- though I generally wouldn't-- say that any particular religious leader was a 'fraud'. Though I think in both Joseph Smith's case and Mohammed's case, they didn't think they were frauds, they honestly believed they were in touch with God.
But I don't believe in any of them. They're all false prophets to me. It's very different when you castigate only one of them, and not the others.
| 599 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:43:26pm |
re: #593 Nimed
I think the LDS is still the fastest growing religion in the world, tho.
| 600 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:43:30pm |
re: #592 windsagio
For me its different, I've been jacked around by asshole cops several times in my life, but I haven't been mugged or needed one yet :)
I've never been mugged either, but I've also never had a problem with the police. Different life stories, I suppose.
| 602 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:44:37pm |
re: #599 windsagio
I think the LDS is still the fastest growing religion in the world, tho.
Faster than Islam?
| 603 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:44:50pm |
re: #598 Obdicut
Its easy to single out Smith some because (and forgive me being nasty a little, but I'm letting it all hang out some) his story is almost Hubbard-whacky.
| 604 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:45:05pm |
re: #602 alexknyc
I think so, it might be proportional tho'. I'll look it up
| 605 |
Four More Tears Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:46:11pm |
re: #598 Obdicut
But I don't believe in any of them. They're all false prophets to me. It's very different when you castigate only one of them, and not the others.
I could castigate a whole bunch, but it's not worth the tower of flame that this post would become. On the other hand, I'm not going to say that there's no wisdom to be found at all in religious teachings.
| 607 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:47:23pm |
re: #605 JasonA
I'll let the zinger pass in the name of peace :D
| 608 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:48:20pm |
| 609 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:48:32pm |
re: #531 SanFranciscoZionist
Oh, hey, you actually know something about this stuff? What should I read?
I know a very little about it, what I know comes by way of being a comparative literature geek. One of my undergraduate courses had some interesting material from this text: Arabic Legal and Administrative Documents in the Cambridge Genizah Collections. Dry title, but it contained some interesting stuff, including documents and contracts pertaining to Jewish life under the Caliphate.
| 611 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:49:52pm |
| 613 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:51:35pm |
Man, I wanna say a thing that'll start a flamewar too, but I'm trying to frekain' resist.
Maybe it's God telling me I need to go out, take a break, and get dinner :D
| 614 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:53:10pm |
| 615 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:54:34pm |
re: #614 Walter L. Newton
At risk of sounding like a suckup, I always greatly admire anyone that has a craft.
Creating things is one of the greatest things you can do.
| 616 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:56:46pm |
re: #614 Walter L. Newton
Oh crap, also. Walter, you know some religious history crap;
I'm thinking of picking up and reading a middle-english religious work called The Cloud of Unknowing.
Sounds interesting, if just about opposite from the way I usually think.
Know anything about it?
| 617 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:56:49pm |
re: #615 windsagio
At risk of sounding like a suckup, I always greatly admire anyone that has a craft.
Creating things is one of the greatest things you can do.
Thanks... suck up :)
| 618 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:57:18pm |
re: #617 Walter L. Newton
Gotta stay in SOMEBODY's good graces :D
| 619 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:59:06pm |
re: #616 windsagio
Oh crap, also. Walter, you know some religious history crap;
I'm thinking of picking up and reading a middle-english religious work called The Cloud of Unknowing.
Sounds interesting, if just about opposite from the way I usually think.
Know anything about it?
Nope... heard of the editor Johnston, but no, never heard of the book... not impossible I've read it or had it, in another life, when I was into all sort of mysticism in the 70's... but off hand, doesn't ring a bell... go for it.
| 620 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:59:50pm |
re: #616 windsagio
Oh crap, also. Walter, you know some religious history crap;
I'm thinking of picking up and reading a middle-english religious work called The Cloud of Unknowing.
Sounds interesting, if just about opposite from the way I usually think.
Know anything about it?
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 621 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 6:59:51pm |
re: #619 Walter L. Newton
I will! And if I remember, I'll give a report :D
| 622 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:00:44pm |
re: #620 Walter L. Newton
And yeah, I found it from wiki, I was looking up that Gorillaz song of the same name I keep linking.
| 623 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:01:55pm |
re: #616 windsagio
Oh crap, also. Walter, you know some religious history crap;
I'm thinking of picking up and reading a middle-english religious work called The Cloud of Unknowing.
Sounds interesting, if just about opposite from the way I usually think.
Know anything about it?
I do have a friend down hill who probably knows of this... he is big time into esoterica... actually works and lives at the Mason's temple in down town Denver... talk about being at the source of esoteric thought... he loves their library...
| 624 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:03:43pm |
Anyways, yeah food. Be back in a bout 30, if people are still around, maybe I'll start an argument about how Atheism is a belief system no different from other religions.
(heh, its always good to go out by throwing a grenade :p)
| 625 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:11:35pm |
Can I say "oy, vey" even though I'm not Jewish? You guys are still debating the sharia thing?
I'm generally pretty impressed with the depth of knowledge of most of the Lizards here, but I have to say that since this discussion started I've been seeing a lot of misinformation.
I know Islam is something foreign to most Americans. I know Islam, especially after 9/11, is a very emotional issue for everyone (it is for me too). I know people have seen horrific behavior by some Muslims and/or done a little research on sharia and/or read parts of the Qur'an and decided that Islam is a brutal, inflexible, intolerant, backwards religion that they despise and want nothing to do with. That's fine—I GET IT. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but (as has been said here before) everyone is not entitled to his/her own facts. I can't address all the errors right now as I have to work in the morning and it would keep me up all night, but I'll keep track of them and post at a later date if anyone's interested (or when/if they come up again).
This is an intelligent group of people who usually pride themselves on facts, yet when it comes to Islam I don't see a lot of people checking facts. What's up with that? Islam is made up of well over a billion human beings. Human beings who—just like you and me and every other person on the planet—have strengths & frailties, hope & fears, they go to work, live, love, hate, laugh, cry, make mistakes, do good things, do bad things.
What's my point? My point is that Islam is going through a sort of paroxysm right now, much in the same way the West did centuries ago. Is that a big surprise? It shouldn't be considering that Islam got started 622 years after the birth of Jesus (a.s.) So if you do a little math 2010 - 622 = 1388. How long did the Reformation take? For how long did the Inquisitions terrorize Europe? How long did it take us to reach the Age of Enlightenment, and what did we have to go through in order to get there? Is that an excuse for bad behavior by Muslims? No, but if history is any indicator, then it does seem to be how human endeavors evolve and eventually work themselves out.
As for sharia, it is only a part of Islam, not the whole. It has a context, as do verses from the Qur'an and every other thing related to the practice & understanding of Islam. I'm not asking anyone to agree with it, I just wish more people would be more informed. I hold myself to that same standard—as a matter of fact, one of the reasons I've been trying to catch up with SFZ to email her is so that I can ask her about books on Jewish history, laws, Zionism, and what Israel means to Jews (not to Muslims). I may disagree with whatever I read. I may dislike it. But at least I will be informed. Capisce?
Speaking of some of the concerns I've see raised here about Islam and about the Cordoba House center & Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, have any of you guys gone to visit the Cordoba Initiative web site to see what they're about? I just came form there. They intend to address gender issues (including women's rights, equality, domestic violence, FGM), freedom of speech, shariah and the secular vs. religious state, and they even explain why they chose the name Cordoba (which happens to be for exactly the reason I correctly assumed a few days ago). Is this the sort of initiative that people find suspicious actually want to stop, or are people just having a knee-jerk response to anything to do with Islam & Muslims?
| 626 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:13:57pm |
re: #454 researchok
In the UK, utilization of the Beth Din is optional. The Muslim community wishes to make utilization of Sharia mandatory for Muslims. Further, Sharia proponents want the courts to have actual enforcement powers (backed up and supported by the state), unlike Beth in rules.
It is for these reasons Muslim women in large have rallied against Sharia courts See International Campaign Against Shari'a Court in Canada.
The issue of Sharia Courts in Britain are many, not the least if which is who will control the courts. There is infighting between the moderates and the more stringent communities as well as the Arab and Pakistani communities, for example.
Each group want the the government to bless their efforts.
Big grief.
Quoted for truth.
| 627 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:17:08pm |
re: #475 SanFranciscoZionist
Can you give me some info on this, particularly in the matter of making Sharia mandatory for Muslims? That, clearly, would be a line far too far.
Wake up and smell the roses.
| 628 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:18:03pm |
I hope y'all know it took me like an hour to type all that, so don't expect any fast responses from me. ;o)
| 630 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:24:40pm |
re: #628 CuriousLurker
You're close to be end of a dying thread, so won't get much response. Most people have moved up to the Laker's game. You can repost your work on a more active ME thread by just treating the comment number like a link, and copying it into a future comment. I'm sure this will all come up again soon.
| 631 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:26:00pm |
re: #531 SanFranciscoZionist
Oh, hey, you actually know something about this stuff? What should I read?
This bit would be a good start,
According to the Sharia, despite declarations of the equality of the sexes before God, women are considered inferior to men, and have fewer rights and responsibilities. A woman counts as half a man in giving evidence in a court of law, or in matters of inheritance. Her position is less advantageous than a man’s with regard to marriage and divorce. A husband has the moral and religious right and duty to beat his wives for disobedience or for perceived misconduct. A woman does not have the right to choose her husband, or her place of residence, to travel freely or have freedom in her choice of clothing. Women have little or no autonomy and are deemed to need the protection of their fathers, husbands or other male relatives throughout their lives. Any conduct that undermines the idea of male supremacy will fall foul of the Sharia.
| 632 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:33:47pm |
re: #630 Decatur Deb
You're close to be end of a dying thread, so won't get much response. Most people have moved up to the Laker's game. You can repost your work on a more active ME thread by just treating the comment number like a link, and copying it into a future comment. I'm sure this will all come up again soon.
Yeah, that's what I get for typing slow. It's probably all for the best anyway as it's been a long day for me, and everyone seems to be enjoying the BB talk upstairs now. Thanks for taking the time to respond though.
| 633 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:34:13pm |
[no phone numbers allowed]re: #625 CuriousLurker
Upding for the math.... 2010 - 622= 1388 is the same thing I tell people.
Islam hasn't had a Renaissance, a Reformation, a Scientific Revolution or an Enlightement YET.
And in 1388, neither had Europe.
The big fear is the 14th century psychology (and by no means am I saying all Muslims have that psychology-- the radical Fundamentalists, however, do) mixed with 21st century weapons. If a crusader had had a nuke, he'd have used it.
It's very scary but you're absolutely right that it's not an excuse to paint all 1.1 billion Muslims with an extremist brush.
| 634 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:40:53pm |
re: #625 CuriousLurker
As for sharia, it is only a part of Islam, not the whole. It has a context, as do verses from the Qur'an and every other thing related to the practice & understanding of Islam.
Sharia is central to Sunni and Shia Islam and all major branches are odious in their treatment of women and gays.
I get that Islam is stuck in the dark ages, that is the problem. I've seen nothing in your posts that suggests you are more knowledgeable than the posters here as you put forth.
As to the 1 billion tired meme, they are not the problem. The problem is the Islamists who wish to keep those 1 billion stuck in the middle ages that you refer to. Opposing Sharia and fundamentalists protects secular muslims, female muslims, gay muslims and moderate muslims, they are the ones under threat.
| 635 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:41:35pm |
re: #633 alexknyc
The big fear is the 14th century psychology (and by no means am I saying all Muslims have that psychology-- the radical Fundamentalists, however, do) mixed with 21st century weapons. If a crusader had had a nuke, he'd have used it.
It's very scary but you're absolutely right that it's not an excuse to paint all 1.1 billion Muslims with an extremist brush.
It's scary for us "regular" Muslims too.
| 636 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:44:42pm |
re: #635 CuriousLurker
It's scary for us "regular" Muslims too.
I know.
And many of us non-Muslims are supportive of "regular" Muslims standing up to the radicals.
I'm sure it happens A LOT more than we get to see in the MSM but it's a process and the fear we all share is that that process will take longer than the one to enrich uranium.
| 637 |
swamprat Thu, Jun 10, 2010 7:49:20pm |
| 638 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:00:43pm |
How not to honor thy father.re: #593 Nimed
Good point. But I think the issue here is that nobobdy considers Joseph Smith to be in the heavy-weight category. Look:
Mohammed, Abraham, Joseph Smith, Jesus, Buda.
He just doesn't belong.
/
Who is this "Buda"? Another pest?
| 639 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:04:45pm |
re: #638 Cato the Elder
How not to honor thy father.
Who is this "Buda"? Another pest?
Puns make me Hungary.
| 640 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:07:19pm |
re: #634 Bagua
I get that Islam is stuck in the dark ages, that is the problem. I've seen nothing in your posts that suggests you are more knowledgeable than the posters here as you put forth.
I've been living it for almost 20 years now, and I do a lot of reading about Islamic subjects in an ongoing effort to increase my knowledge and evolve. Maybe that doesn't count? If I have a question about Judaism I'll ask a Jewish person who seems intelligent and likely to be at least somewhat knowledgeable about their own faith. Ditto for any other religion or topic.
As I said when I first introduced myself here, I'm not an Islamic scholar, but if you or anyone else would like to calmly discuss the books on sharia, fiqh, sunnah, Qur'anic exegesis, etc. that you've read I'll gladly go out and get a copy of the same texts so we can talk about them
As to the 1 billion tired meme, they are not the problem. The problem is the Islamists who wish to keep those 1 billion stuck in the middle ages that you refer to. Opposing Sharia and fundamentalists protects secular muslims, female muslims, gay muslims and moderate muslims, they are the ones under threat.
Sharia is part of Islam and opposing it isn't going to make it go away. Things need to be re-examined & re-interpreted the same way they were in the West. Separation of church & state? Why not? Is that impossible in Islam? I don't mean right now, I mean ever?
| 641 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:12:09pm |
re: #640 CuriousLurker
I've been living it for almost 20 years now, and I do a lot of reading about Islamic subjects in an ongoing effort to increase my knowledge and evolve. Maybe that doesn't count? If I have a question about Judaism I'll ask a Jewish person who seems intelligent and likely to be at least somewhat knowledgeable about their own faith. Ditto for any other religion or topic.
Do you really mean to say we should discuss Islam with real Muslims instead of trusting to agenda-driven pseudo-scholars like Robert Spencer and his shrieking harpy?
Whatta concept!
(((CL)))
| 643 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:19:12pm |
re: #642 windsagio
That logic cuts both ways >>
Another pointless, meaningless comment from the guy who posts just to see himself type.
| 644 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:20:48pm |
re: #643 Cato the Elder
C'mon cato, there's a point there.
There are a ton of self-proclaimed experts on Islam spouting all kinds of bile, all over the place.
Not everything is a direct attack >
| 645 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:23:18pm |
re: #641 Cato the Elder
Do you really mean to say we should discuss Islam with real Muslims instead of trusting to agenda-driven pseudo-scholars like Robert Spencer and his shrieking harpy?
Whatta concept!
(((CL)))
Back at ya' (((Cato)))
Words have power, and it's really hard (if not impossible) to have a rational, productive conversation when insults are flying or there's a bunch of negative language being used. Then people just get defensive or angry and shut down.
| 646 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:31:44pm |
Okay, I'm toast and it looks like this thread is finally dead.
G'night, all.
| 647 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:32:16pm |
re: #627 Bagua
Wake up and smell the roses.
Ah, yes, when all else fails, go to the 'you're being naive' line of attack.
| 649 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:33:13pm |
re: #631 Bagua
This bit would be a good start,
According to the Sharia, despite declarations of the equality of the sexes before God, women are considered inferior to men, and have fewer rights and responsibilities. A woman counts as half a man in giving evidence in a court of law, or in matters of inheritance. Her position is less advantageous than a man’s with regard to marriage and divorce. A husband has the moral and religious right and duty to beat his wives for disobedience or for perceived misconduct. A woman does not have the right to choose her husband, or her place of residence, to travel freely or have freedom in her choice of clothing. Women have little or no autonomy and are deemed to need the protection of their fathers, husbands or other male relatives throughout their lives. Any conduct that undermines the idea of male supremacy will fall foul of the Sharia.
Do you know what the status of women is in halacha with regards to the ability to testify in court and in the ability to obtain a divorce?
| 650 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:34:39pm |
re: #631 Bagua
This bit would be a good start,
According to the Sharia, despite declarations of the equality of the sexes before God, women are considered inferior to men, and have fewer rights and responsibilities. A woman counts as half a man in giving evidence in a court of law, or in matters of inheritance. Her position is less advantageous than a man’s with regard to marriage and divorce. A husband has the moral and religious right and duty to beat his wives for disobedience or for perceived misconduct. A woman does not have the right to choose her husband, or her place of residence, to travel freely or have freedom in her choice of clothing. Women have little or no autonomy and are deemed to need the protection of their fathers, husbands or other male relatives throughout their lives. Any conduct that undermines the idea of male supremacy will fall foul of the Sharia.
Also, that's the shittiest excuse for an unbiased website I've seen in a while.
You think you know more about this than you do, because you're getting all your information from highly biased sources, and because you assume that anyone challenging your assumptions thinks Islam is hearts and flowers.
| 651 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:35:28pm |
re: #650 SanFranciscoZionist
Welcome to every single day of my blogging life >>
| 652 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:36:29pm |
re: #648 CuriousLurker
Ohhh, SFZ! Can you email now?
Sure. How do I blue the nic? Or can you blue yours and I'll send you my e-mail?
| 653 |
alexknyc Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:37:50pm |
re: #652 SanFranciscoZionist
Sure. How do I blue the nic? Or can you blue yours and I'll send you my e-mail?
Above the comment box is your username and a space for your email. If you check the "show email" box, your email should appear, which will blue your nic.
| 654 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:38:26pm |
Done, thx!
*ducking for cover because SFZ sounds pissed*
| 655 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:38:37pm |
re: #651 windsagio
Welcome to every single day of my blogging life >>
I've so had it with this. WTF?
| 656 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:41:05pm |
re: #655 SanFranciscoZionist
Ok that response was a bit surprisingly strong.
| 658 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:42:07pm |
re: #655 SanFranciscoZionist
I've so had it with this. WTF?
Windsagio only posts so he can put in another ">>" at the end of a periodless sentence and annoy the hell out of me.
| 659 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:42:26pm |
re: #656 windsagio
Ok that response was a bit surprisingly strong.
Toldja she was pissed. I could feel it from all the way across the country.
| 660 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:42:54pm |
re: #654 CuriousLurker
Done, thx!
*ducking for cover because SFZ sounds pissed*
I've sent a message to the address I got for you, and blued for these two messages.
| 661 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:44:20pm |
| 662 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:44:58pm |
Got it—you landed in my spam box. I'll email you back in about 60 seconds so we'll know we got it right, then I'll catch up with you over the weekend.
| 664 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:46:25pm |
re: #656 windsagio
Ok that response was a bit surprisingly strong.
I get fed up. This is one of those topics that pisses me off.
| 665 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:47:00pm |
re: #664 SanFranciscoZionist
Haha just surprised, I thought I was agreeing with you :P
| 666 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:47:36pm |
re: #662 CuriousLurker
Got it—you landed in my spam box. I'll email you back in about 60 seconds so we'll know we got it right, then I'll catch up with you over the weekend.
Sure thing.
| 667 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:48:35pm |
re: #665 windsagio
Haha just surprised, I thought I was agreeing with you :P
The WTF was not aimed at you. Just in general.
I really should know better.
| 668 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:48:49pm |
| 670 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:50:35pm |
Have a nice night, both of you. I'm ~~~~gone~~~~
| 671 |
windsagio Thu, Jun 10, 2010 8:50:38pm |
re: #669 SanFranciscoZionist
we can talk about white supremecists now that the basketball game is over :D
| 672 |
bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 10:13:44pm |
re: #650 SanFranciscoZionist
Also, that's the shittiest excuse for an unbiased website I've seen in a while.
You think you know more about this than you do, because you're getting all your information from highly biased sources, and because you assume that anyone challenging your assumptions thinks Islam is hearts and flowers.
Is it? Here is their About Us Partners. Liberal Muslims, Bangladesh Human Rights Watch, Council for Democracy and Tolerance, Progressive Muslims 1998.
Not a single anti-Jihadi site. In what way is that a highly biased source?
You haven't offered a single link, just anger, downdings and snark.
| 673 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 10:20:35pm |
re: #640 CuriousLurker
Sharia is part of Islam and opposing it isn't going to make it go away. Things need to be re-examined & re-interpreted the same way they were in the West. Separation of church & state? Why not? Is that impossible in Islam? I don't mean right now, I mean ever?
Agreed, and Sharia has odious views on women, gays, etc. I notice you haven't answered a single such charge, you just whitter on about how Islams is stuck in the 1,400s and needs a reformation.
Things need to be re-examined? Hell yes, but when? By whom? Where are the moderates and when do they speak out?
Separation of church and state? Not in the primary Shia republic, Iran. Not in the primary Sunni nation, Saudi Arabia. So were then?
Is it impossible in the future? I never said it was not. Why set up straw man arguments?
The people I'm talking about are the radical Islamists who most certainly are becoming the dominant voice in Britain. No necessary the majority, but then they are nearly silent.
| 674 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 10:25:38pm |
re: #649 SanFranciscoZionist
Do you know what the status of women is in halacha with regards to the ability to testify in court and in the ability to obtain a divorce?
Are Halacha and Sharia law equivalent then?
re: #130 LudwigVanQuixote
I'm just talking in general. You have to be a real ignorant twit to think that Jewish law - from which we derive a great deal of our civil law today in America, is anything really like Sharia.
Just for example:1. A Beit Din hasn't executed anyone in over 2100 years. And back in the day, capital punishment was frowned on. For those who don't know, a Beit Din that executed twice in ten years was called a court of murderers and disbanded. This is because even though capital punishment was on the books, it was procedurally almost impossible to convict (by design).
2. A woman has all sorts of rights in case of divorce. That is what a Ketubah is for after all. Further, you can't just divorce her at whim. She has to accept the get (writ of divorce).
3. No chattel slavery. To this day, the only actual slave markets int he world are in Muslim nations.
4. No boinking 9 year olds...
5. The ruler is subject to the same laws as the people. We had Magna Carta 200 years before Magna Carta.
6. A woman's testimony counts the same as a man's.
7. You are not allowed to beat your wife. In fact, back in the day, if you did, she could go to the court, and the Beit Din could force the husband to write a get and pay damages to her.
8. In Jewish law, married women are supposed to enjoy sex and her husband is supposed to be caring for her needs in that department. This is in stark contrast to mutilating a womans' genitals so that she will always be a pleasureless slave to her husband.
9. Oh yeah, women can own property, inherit, and run businesses as well.
I could go on a lot more... but I hope that makes a point. Any lefty who cares about human rights at all need only look to Jewish law to find the source of most of his values. I am totally sick of these kneejerk idiots who think that they know a damn thing about it.
re: #48 LudwigVanQuixote
Oh dear God.
I am somehow confident that I don't have the energy right now to face the ignorance of anyone who thinks Jewish Law is anything like Shria law.
Just simply say this part... under Jewish law, women are expected to be able to read and write.
Funny how you don't dispute a single point. I do consider Ludwig to be knowledgeable on Halacha.
| 675 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 10, 2010 10:29:16pm |
re: #673 Bagua
Only a fool faces a chance to learn and attacks it.
| 677 |
Bagua Thu, Jun 10, 2010 11:02:26pm |
re: #675 Obdicut
Yes, you are a fool Obdicut, I notice you haven't the courage to dispute a single point that Ludwig had made. So you are a fool and a coward.
| 678 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 12:50:47am |
re: #318 Bagua
I have made that clear already. The fundamentalists are the ones pushing the Sharia courts, and increasing control of Muslim community centers and places of worship. Everything that increases their power increases the threat.
Places like London and Amsterdam which encourage their Muslim community to have "their own culture" and make accommodation for the demands of the fundamentalists seeking Sharia are seeing a dramatic rise in these problems. Places like the US where the Muslims are encouraged to integrate and join in the American culture, do not have these increasing problems.
Beyond that, I can not help you Obdicut, because when you have decided to oppose my comments you focus on redefining what I say into a straw man you can knock down and play at being befuddled. As I've never seen you spin on behalf of Christian So-Cons trying to gain legal acceptance for their laws and codes, quite the opposite in fact, I'm confused why you and others are so desperate to spin for the Islamists.
GOD what the fuck Bagua
| 679 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Jun 11, 2010 12:54:03am |
re: #565 Dark_Falcon
Thanks for the update. Portland officially makes my 'asshole city' list. I don't know why they'd get so much business after doing that. Here in Chicagoland, a coffee shop that told a cop to leave would be shunned.
lol
| 680 |
teleskiguy Fri, Jun 11, 2010 1:52:54am |
This is big. And LGF readers are immediately privy to it. Bwa Ha Ha HA!
| 681 |
Bagua Fri, Jun 11, 2010 9:02:11am |
re: #678 WindUpBird
GOD what the fuck Bagua
What the fuck indeed Windupbird, I have seen you howl at Christians who promote anti-gay rhetoric, and rightly so, yet the anti-gay Islamists appear to be a protected species here. The Christian are against gay marriage, the Islamists promote the murder of gays and in places like Amsterdam and London attacks on gays are becoming an epidemic.
What the fuck?
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
Alone in a Bathroom: The Fear and Uncertainty of a Post-Roe Medication Abortion Angel tucked two white pills into each side of her mouth, bracing herself as they began to dissolve. Her deepest fears and anxieties took over. Angel had wanted to talk to a doctor before she took the pills to ... Cheechako
They Were Desperate to Get Pregnant. Then IVF Gave Them Extra Embryos. One morning last spring, Ashley Harrolle put her 1-year-old daughter down for a nap and went to the kitchen. She pulled up her fertility clinic’s contact information. It was time to make the call. In a freezer several hundred ... CheechakoJoe Bacon ✅
March FavoritesYou've seen these all already but looking back, just because. These are my favorite shots of this last month. That 1937 Zeiss Sonnar is such a gloriously wonderful bit of glass. Thanks for looking.
William Lewis
Russia’s New Combat Robots Blown Up by Drones Near Avdiivka When we landed on the moon, I thought about how science fiction had become real. Now, the robot wars have begun. It's more poignant somehow on the ground than in the missile wars we have in the air as ...
Rightwingconspirator
Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ... CheechakoKGxvi
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ... Cheechako
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ... Cheechako
