Rand Paul Compares US to the Fall of the Roman Empire

Wingnuts • Views: 3,205

Yesterday Rand Paul, the rising star of the Republican Party, compared the United States to the Roman Empire in its last days.

This sort of rhetoric is indistinguishable from the anti-American rants of Al Qaeda, and it’s now standard tea party fare. Why does Rand Paul hate America?

SHEPHERDSVILLE, Ky. — Republican U.S. Senate nominee Rand Paul likened the United States to the Roman Empire in the days before it fell during a speech at a tea party rally on Thursday.

“In the latter days of Rome, the economy was crumbling, the emperor … would placate the mob with bread and circus — food and entertainment to placate them since the economy was in shambles and dwindling around them,” Paul told several hundred people gathered for the rally in a Bullitt County park.

“Now in our country, as our economy is in shambles, they give us Cash for Clunkers and a stimulus check and they tell us to go to the mall and spend your money and everything will be OK … That’s not how you become prosperous as an individual or a country,” he told the crowd of supporters.

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667 comments
1 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:32:37am

He should know his daddy was there!
//

2 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:33:30am

This sounds a lot more like a criticism of George W. Bush than of Obama. What year is it again?

3 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:34:18am

re: #2 Obdicut

My thoughts exactly. Surprised he didn't throw in Middle Eastern occupation.

4 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:35:40am

Of course the Eastern Empire went on for a few hundred more years...

5 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:37:11am

The way to become more prosperous is the deregulation and supply-side economics that got us into this mess.........

6 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:37:44am

But if we stop shopping like crazy, doesn't that mean the terrorists have won?

7 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:37:50am

re: #4 JasonA

Of course the Eastern Empire went on for a few hundred more years...

And there was that Holy Roman Emperor thing.

Not to mention the bread ration was in place long before any sort of fall of the Roman Empire. And the economic troubles that really placed pressure on Rome were the Latifunda-- the gigantic slave-worked farms owned by the richest Romans that had displaced the previous agrarian middle class and caused a lot of unemployment and turmoil. I'm not sure that Rand knows diddly about Roman history, frankly.

8 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:37:53am

I feel special. People are fighting for the top spot on MyListTM.

9 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:38:14am

blah blah blah
wocka wocka wocka

(and yes things suck a bit, but not near as much as the "we hate America but only because Obama is President" crowd screams it does.)

10 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:39:15am

Well since the economy is recovering nicely he'll be revealed for the fool that he is and just fade away. Right?

11 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:40:16am

re: #10 Leonidas Hoplite

I'm sorry, but that seems like you don't feel this was a foolish comment by Paul. Can you expand on what you do mean?

12 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:40:22am

re: #10 Leonidas Hoplite

Well since the economy is recovering nicely he'll be revealed for the fool that he is and just fade away. Right?

I don't know what your icon is, but it looks like pie when small.
mmmmmm, pie.....

13 Bourdain's Breakfast  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:40:41am

Click on:

UN committee calls for dumping US dollar...

At drudge, and you go to....

Prison Planet! Add to Matt's list of reading material.

14 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:41:22am

re: #12 webevintage

It's pie with a right angle.. what the illuminati eat.

15 Kragar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:41:49am

Bah, What have the Romans ever done for us?

16 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:42:04am

re: #13 Bourdain's Breakfast

Click on:

At drudge, and you go to...

Prison Planet! Add to Matt's list of reading material.

RFID chips!! FEMA camps!! We're screwed!!!
/need I?

17 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:42:09am

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Bah, What have the Romans ever done for us?

Actually...
...
:P

18 Bourdain's Breakfast  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:43:10am

Besides the roads...

19 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:43:13am

He might want to reread the history (any history) on the Roman Empire, since he's so fact challenged.

In the latter days of the Roman Empire? Gee, they were busy with bread and circuses in the Year of the Four Emperors and that was in the midst of the 12 Caesars that Suetonius wrote about (which happens to be not long after the formation of the Empire after the fall of the Roman Republic). That happened to precede some of the best emperors in Roman history including Vespasian, who founded the Flavian Dynasty. It included Diocletian, Justinian and Constantine.

The Roman Empire in the West ended after 476, the Eastern Empire persisted another 1,000 years.

20 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:43:36am

I'm joining the People's Popular Front of Judea!

21 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:44:30am

re: #20 Mad Al-Jaffee

I'm joining the People's Popular Front of Judea!

We should make our own Front. It would RULE!!

22 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:45:12am

The Lizard's Popular Front of Randonia?

23 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:45:35am

re: #21 Cannadian Club Akbar

We should make our own Front. It would RULE!!

Splitter!

24 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:45:41am

re: #11 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but that seems like you don't feel this was a foolish comment by Paul. Can you expand on what you do mean?

You don't like the messenger, and perhaps you think that the analogy is over the top. But there is no escaping the fact that the economy is in trouble, and that the "Let's spend a bunch of money and also let's create more entitlements" solution is destructive. And the fact that it might make it look good in the short term is worse. Again, I can bust out my credit card and make it look like I am extremely successful for a few years, but it's eventually going to screw me.

25 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:45:41am

Everyone knows that it was the Roman support of an independent Jewish state that brought them to ruins and will be America's downfall as well.
/

26 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:45:42am

re: #21 Cannadian Club Akbar

We should make our own Front. It would RULE!!

Fine, I'm gonna make my own revolutionary movement, with blackjack and hookers, in fact forget the revolutionary movement!

27 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:46:11am

re: #19 lawhawk

He might want to reread the history (any history) on the Roman Empire, since he's so fact challenged.

In the latter days of the Roman Empire? Gee, they were busy with bread and circuses in the Year of the Four Emperors and that was in the midst of the 12 Caesars that Suetonius wrote about (which happens to be not long after the formation of the Empire after the fall of the Roman Republic). That happened to precede some of the best emperors in Roman history including Vespasian, who founded the Flavian Dynasty. It included Diocletian, Justinian and Constantine.

The Roman Empire in the West ended after 476, the Eastern Empire persisted another 1,000 years.

Every one of your points above ran through my head as I read the thread topic... where as I not a scholar on Roman history, my many years of collecting ancient Roman coins has given me a good overview of the general history of Rome from the Republic period through the Byzantine.

His "facts" are not factual at all.

28 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:46:22am

re: #11 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but that seems like you don't feel this was a foolish comment by Paul. Can you expand on what you do mean?

By the way, howdy Obdicut. How was your getaway with the new bride? How is your new little family?

29 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:46:24am

Very OT:

I put a page up with three pictures from my wedding reception, for any who are interested.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

More of the actual wedding will be coming.

30 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:46:29am

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Bah, What have the Romans ever done for us?

Candles. 300 in a metal trash can.

Youtube Video
31 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:46:41am

re: #26 jamesfirecat

Fine, I'm gonna make my own revolutionary movement, with blackjack and hookers, in fact forget the revolutionary movement!

I am SO there. I love blackjack. Wait, what else?
/

32 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:46:55am

re: #24 cliffster

You don't like the messenger, and perhaps you think that the analogy is over the top. But there is no escaping the fact that the economy is in trouble, and that the "Let's spend a bunch of money and also let's create more entitlements" solution is destructive. And the fact that it might make it look good in the short term is worse. Again, I can bust out my credit card and make it look like I am extremely successful for a few years, but it's eventually going to screw me.

Yes, but what if we don't spend it on "entitlements" what if we spend it on projects that put people to work and are a net gain to the countries economy as well? Like paying people to build a hydroelectric damn that generates more power for the US so we can spend less on oil?

33 greygandalf  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:47:09am

Al Qaeda == Tea party

Good luck with that catching on.

34 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:47:16am

What's really funny is that our nation hasn't even lasted for half as long as the Roman Republic did, nevermind the Empire.

35 Jack Burton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:47:46am

re: #19 lawhawk

He might want to reread the history (any history) on the Roman Empire, since he's so fact challenged.

In the latter days of the Roman Empire? Gee, they were busy with bread and circuses in the Year of the Four Emperors and that was in the midst of the 12 Caesars that Suetonius wrote about (which happens to be not long after the formation of the Empire after the fall of the Roman Republic). That happened to precede some of the best emperors in Roman history including Vespasian, who founded the Flavian Dynasty. It included Diocletian, Justinian and Constantine.

The Roman Empire in the West ended after 476, the Eastern Empire persisted another 1,000 years.

Maybe he thinks the Western Empire United States will be overrun by Germanic Tribes Mexicans and the Eastern Empire of the Mississippi will go on until the 31st century.

/

36 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:47:46am

One thing that strikes me is how the Paulians are obviously people who never learned this lesson.
"Be careful what you wish for."

37 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:47:54am

re: #26 jamesfirecat

Fine, I'm gonna make my own revolutionary movement, with blackjack and hookers, in fact forget the revolutionary movement!

God, it's so awesome to have new episodes of Futurama.

38 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:48:15am

re: #33 greygandalf

Al Qaeda == Tea party

Good luck with that catching on.

Tea-Liban?

39 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:48:26am

re: #34 JasonA

What's really funny is that our nation hasn't even lasted for half as long as the Roman Republic did, nevermind the Empire.

Listen little Amy form Warwickshire it's not the size of your history that counts its how you use it!

40 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:48:27am

re: #32 jamesfirecat

Yes, but what if we don't spend it on "entitlements" what if we spend it on projects that put people to work and are a net gain to the countries economy as well? Like paying people to build a hydroelectric damn that generates more power for the US so we can spend less on oil?

Spending money you don't have like that is always a gamble.

41 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:48:36am

re: #24 cliffster

Be specific.. which entitlements are destructive?

42 Baier  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:48:47am

re: #32 jamesfirecat

Yes, but what if we don't spend it on "entitlements" what if we spend it on projects that put people to work and are a net gain to the countries economy as well? Like paying people to build a hydroelectric damn that generates more power for the US so we can spend less on oil?

What if we don't spend it and let people keep it and reinvest in their businesses?

43 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:48:58am

re: #24 cliffster

You don't like the messenger, and perhaps you think that the analogy is over the top.

I don't know the messenger, and the analogy is massively inaccurate, as I pointed out. It's not that it's 'over the top', it's that it makes absolutely zero sense on any level.

But there is no escaping the fact that the economy is in trouble, and that the "Let's spend a bunch of money and also let's create more entitlements" solution is destructive.

Yes, there is 'escaping' that. Government spending during a recession is overwhelmingly agreed to be necessary. An examination of the spending patterns during the recovery from the Great Depression shows this rather clearly. It is a fringe, mainly Austrian Economics view that cutting spending in a recession is a good idea.

And the fact that it might make it look good in the short term is worse. Again, I can bust out my credit card and make it look like I am extremely successful for a few years, but it's eventually going to screw me.

There is no analogy between your credit card/personal finances and the nations economy. It doesn't exist, any more than your own personal health relates to the health of the nation at large.

44 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:49:08am

re: #42 Baier

What if we don't spend it and let people keep it and reinvest in their businesses?

So you're suggesting more tax cuts?

45 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:49:19am

re: #24 cliffster

You don't like the messenger, and perhaps you think that the analogy is over the top. But there is no escaping the fact that the economy is in trouble, and that the "Let's spend a bunch of money and also let's create more entitlements" solution is destructive. And the fact that it might make it look good in the short term is worse. Again, I can bust out my credit card and make it look like I am extremely successful for a few years, but it's eventually going to screw me.

The analogy is not over the top... it is wrong, historically wrong... it's the Hollywood version of Roman history... the type of stuff that John Q. Public remembers as history, because they watched to many gladiator movies, to many passion of Christ movies, to many...

That's why this shit works so much of the time... jackasses listening who know squat about the general history of the world, or even our own country.

46 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:49:41am

re: #44 jamesfirecat

So you're suggesting more tax cuts?

Why not keep the ones we have?

47 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:50:04am

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

The analogy is not over the top... it is wrong, historically wrong... it's the Hollywood version of Roman history... the type of stuff that John Q. Public remembers as history, because they watched to many gladiator movies, to many passion of Christ movies, to many...

That's why this shit works so much of the time... jackasses listening who know squat about the general history of the world, or even our own country.

Oy. Don't get me started on how Hollywood shits on ancient Rome...

48 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:50:04am

re: #42 Baier

What if we don't spend it and let people keep it and reinvest in their businesses?

What is they don't?

49 Baier  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:50:10am

re: #44 jamesfirecat

So you're suggesting more tax cuts?

I'm suggesting less spending.

50 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:50:14am

re: #29 Obdicut

Very OT:

I put a page up with three pictures from my wedding reception, for any who are interested.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

More of the actual wedding will be coming.

Hey, look over there!!!
Your wife's hot

51 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:50:21am

re: #40 cliffster

Spending money you don't have like that is always a gamble.

Ehh seems like a win, win to me at the moment. Yes its a gamble, but its' a gamble I'd be willing to take if it helped improve America in the long term and helped get people back to work.

Once we get unemployment back down to about half what is is now, then we can worry about paying down the deficit....

(That's my stance at least...)

52 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:50:34am

re: #19 lawhawk

To clarify for the history experts - the "it" in "It included Diocletian, Justinian and Constantine." refers to the Roman Empires best emperors - not that they were all members of the Flavian Dynasty.

53 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:50:37am

Obi, nice pics.

54 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:51:00am

OT- Winner of the 2010 Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest (contest for best bad writing):

For the first month of Ricardo and Felicity's affair, they greeted one another at every stolen rendezvous with a kiss--a lengthy, ravenous kiss, Ricardo lapping and sucking at Felicity's mouth as if she were a giant cage-mounted water bottle and he were the world's thirstiest gerbil.

Molly Ringle
Seattle, WA

[Link: www.bulwer-lytton.com...]

55 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:51:15am

re: #49 Baier

I'm suggesting less spending.

Okay what should we cut spending on?

56 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:51:40am

re: #52 lawhawk

To clarify for the history experts - the "it" in "It included Diocletian, Justinian and Constantine." refers to the Roman Empires best emperors - not that they were all members of the Flavian Dynasty.

And don't forget the Five Good Emperors.

57 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:51:52am

re: #47 JasonA

Oy. Don't get me started on how Hollywood shits on ancient Rome...

Victor Mature for President???

// ;)

58 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:51:53am

re: #55 jamesfirecat

Okay what should we cut spending on?

Everything that doesn't affect him directly but screws millions of others.

59 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:52:00am

re: #50 Varek Raith

I'm not a terribly jealous dude. She gives me no cause to be. And yes, she's absolutely gorgeous.

In addition, all the jewelry she's wearing she made herself, including our wedding rings.

60 Baier  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:52:07am

re: #55 jamesfirecat

Okay what should we cut spending on?


I'm not getting in to this with you James. Sorry kiddo.

61 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:52:17am

re: #29 Obdicut

Very OT:

I put a page up with three pictures from my wedding reception, for any who are interested.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

More of the actual wedding will be coming.

You guys looks ADORIBLE!
Many happy returns.

62 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:52:27am

re: #59 Obdicut

I'm not a terribly jealous dude. She gives me no cause to be. And yes, she's absolutely gorgeous.

In addition, all the jewelry she's wearing she made herself, including our wedding rings.

Neat.
RINGS OF POWER!

63 [deleted]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:52:38am
64 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:52:38am

re: #60 Baier

I'm not getting in to this with you James. Sorry kiddo.

But how can you say we should cut spending and then not say what you're willing to cut spending on while making a coherent argument?

65 Baier  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:52:57am

re: #58 Basho

Everything that doesn't affect him directly but screws millions of others.

I find people are very generous with other people's money and even more generous with money that doesn't even exist yet.

66 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:53:35am

re: #52 lawhawk

To clarify for the history experts - the "it" in "It included Diocletian, Justinian and Constantine." refers to the Roman Empires best emperors - not that they were all members of the Flavian Dynasty.

Diocletian... well, it depended which altar you worshiped at... for the monetary system, commerce Diocletian did well, for Christians... not so good.

67 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:53:43am

re: #65 Baier

I find people are very generous with other people's money and even more generous with money that doesn't even exist yet.

See: Social Security.

68 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:54:16am

So what worked in the past?
We have been in recessions before...the economy sucked before...what helped bring us out?

69 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:54:20am

re: #59 Obdicut

I'm not a terribly jealous dude. She gives me no cause to be. And yes, she's absolutely gorgeous.

In addition, all the jewelry she's wearing she made herself, including our wedding rings.

I saw the pictures... which one is you? :)

70 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:54:25am

re: #65 Baier

I find people are very generous with other people's money and even more generous with money that doesn't even exist yet.

I find the vague platitude of "cut spending!" without giving any specifics as to what to actually cut annoying.

71 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:54:35am

re: #47 JasonA

Oy. Don't get me started on how Hollywood shits on ancient Rome...

You mean the Romans didn't have British accents?

72 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:54:59am

re: #71 Mad Al-Jaffee

You mean the Romans didn't have British accents?

SPARTAAA!
...
Wait...

73 Baier  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:55:06am

re: #70 Varek Raith

I find the vague platitude of "cut spending!" without giving any specifics as to what to actually cut annoying.

I find the vague platitude of "increase spending!" without giving any specifics as to what to actually cut annoying.

74 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:55:27am

re: #62 Varek Raith

There was this funny inscription running around the interior that I noticed when she was casting it, but it faded after it cooled down.

75 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:55:28am

Gotta go do some shipping to keep my little corner of the economy chugging along.
BBL

76 abolitionist  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:55:58am

re: #12 webevintage

I don't know what your icon is, but it looks like pie when small.
mmm, pie...

#10's icon is a Spartan shield, as from the movie 300.

77 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:56:26am

re: #73 Baier

I find the vague platitude of "increase spending!" without giving any specifics as to what to actually cut annoying.

I'm not in the "increase spending" camp.
So, what should we cut???

78 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:56:30am

re: #47 JasonA

Oy. Don't get me started on how Hollywood shits on ancient Rome...

The Hollywood version.... a 600 year old society partied too much, warred too and burned down... end of story.

79 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:56:38am

re: #68 webevintage

So what worked in the past?
We have been in recessions before...the economy sucked before...what helped bring us out?

Well most people agree that WW2 had something to do it....

Huge government spending on infrastructure/equipment (guns, tanks, planes, ships)

Huge government employment between people being paid to build those things and all the people who were drafted into the army and had to be paid....

Clearly this is a situation that can only be solved by getting the government off our back and out of the economy in general!

80 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:56:48am

re: #76 abolitionist

#10's icon is a Spartan shield, as from the movie 300.

Know it all.
/

81 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:57:59am

re: #73 Baier

I find the vague platitude of "increase spending!" without giving any specifics as to what to actually cut annoying.

I gave you one example right there to start with, building more public works projects, stuff likes Damns which generate power, better roads which everyone drives on, hell we can even make building the much beloved of the right wall against along the border with Mexico into a public works project!

82 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:58:03am

re: #73 Baier

Assuming you mean 'increase', not cut:

I think we need to increase spending in the following areas, immediately:

Unemployment benefits
Food stamps
Back-to-work programs
Small business administration loans
Infrastructure, especially high-speed internet

I think we need to not necessarily increase spending on, but increase effectiveness of:

Science education
EPA and other environmental regulators enforcement ability
Private prison reform to focus on recidivism reduction.

There ya go.

83 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:58:15am

re: #73 Baier

I find the vague platitude of "increase spending!" without giving any specifics as to what to actually cut annoying.

?

84 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:58:25am

re: #77 Varek Raith

I'm not in the "increase spending" camp.
So, what should we cut???

Clarification;
I'm in no one's camp when it comes to "fixing" the economy.
Why?
Because I know jack about economics.

85 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:58:26am

I'm leaving work early today. Have a great holiday everyone! And if you're in Canada, England, or anywhere else thats not America, :p
/

86 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:58:31am

re: #59 Obdicut

I'm not a terribly jealous dude. She gives me no cause to be. And yes, she's absolutely gorgeous.

In addition, all the jewelry she's wearing she made herself, including our wedding rings.

"Steel from the guns of Stalingrad"
--great old movie

Congratulations!

87 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:58:34am

re: #77 Varek Raith

I'm not in the "increase spending" camp.
So, what should we cut???

Without having a link, how about pork spending on studies of "why bugs poop" and stoopid shit like that?

88 Baier  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:58:57am

re: #82 Obdicut

Assuming you mean 'increase', not cut:

I think we need to increase spending in the following areas, immediately:

Unemployment benefits
Food stamps
Back-to-work programs
Small business administration loans
Infrastructure, especially high-speed internet

I think we need to not necessarily increase spending on, but increase effectiveness of:

Science education
EPA and other environmental regulators enforcement ability
Private prison reform to focus on recidivism reduction.

There ya go.

I wrote what I meant. Increasing spending without cutting spending is dangerous.

89 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:59:09am

re: #87 Cannadian Club Akbar

Without having a link, how about pork spending on studies of "why bugs poop" and stoopid shit like that?

Kill 'em.

90 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:59:26am

re: #84 Varek Raith

Clarification;
I'm in no one's camp when it comes to "fixing" the economy.
Why?
Because I know jack about economics.

Congratulations (non sarcasm) the world would be a better place if more people were smart enough to realize when they were idiots... its a skill that even escapes me at times...

91 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 10:59:37am

re: #68 webevintage

So what worked in the past?
We have been in recessions before...the economy sucked before...what helped bring us out?

Hoovernomics?

92 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:00:06am

re: #89 Varek Raith

Kill 'em.

The bugs or the pork spenders?
/half

93 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:01:11am

re: #92 Cannadian Club Akbar

The bugs or the pork spenders?
/half

Hehehe, the pork spending.
I get some of it.
Others...yeah, a waste.

94 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:01:16am

Jesus Christ the Republican party is delusional

95 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:01:26am

re: #88 Baier

I wrote what I meant. Increasing spending without cutting spending is dangerous.

"Dangerous" in that we'll have to pay it back at some point yes.

I don't find it "dangerous" to the point that we shouldn't do it in a situation like this however.

I personally care more about the unemployment than I do about the deficit, we're already a trillion in the, hole, we might as well pile it on so that at least we've got a strong economy that shows other nations that we can pay back however much we owe them rather than just limping along....

96 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:01:42am

re: #93 Varek Raith

Hehehe, the pork spending.
I get understand some of it.
Others...yeah, a waste.


Grammar fail!

97 Baier  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:01:57am

re: #90 jamesfirecat

Congratulations (non sarcasm) the world would be a better place if more people were smart enough to realize when they were idiots... its a skill that even escapes me at times...

Advice you should not ignore.

98 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:02:33am

re: #97 Baier

Advice you should not ignore.

Okay then, prove to me why I'm being an idiot at the moment...

99 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:02:35am

re: #67 Cannadian Club Akbar

See: Social Security.

Wow! Do you know how social security works??

100 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:02:42am

re: #88 Baier

I wrote what I meant. Increasing spending without cutting spending is dangerous.

Oh, okay. I don't entirely agree; there are many cases where if you don't spend now, you will wind up spending later. If you can spend $50,000 to put in place a system that will decrease farm erosion, you can avoid spending millions in environmental damage, lost jobs, and food support down the road. A lot of the time, an expenditure makes sense even if you have to spend into the deficit to do it.

That does not mean the majority of our spending is of that nature, but I do think it's very important that people not overlook that the choice is often between different amounts of spending at different times, not spending or no spending.

101 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:02:53am

re: #96 Varek Raith

Grammar fail!

I'm deducting two internets from you.

102 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:02:59am

re: #99 Basho

Wow! Do you know how social security works??

Yes.

103 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:03:22am

Do we really need volcano monitoring?

/

104 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:03:40am

BBIAB, my cat is getting into trouble...

105 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:04:15am

re: #103 JasonA

Do we really need volcano monitoring?

/

No but everyone needs volcano insurance. As it just so happens...

106 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:04:25am

re: #102 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yes.

2 words: Lock Box.

107 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:05:36am

re: #105 Leonidas Hoplite

No but everyone needs volcano insurance. As it just so happens...

Sorry, I went with Geico..

108 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:07:49am

My great-grandfather was very into good farming practices: Soil erosion, etc. He was known for it and won awards.

He also thought that the government shouldn't pay people to practice correct farming. They should just do it.

(I received multiple lectures on this from my grandmother who was, ironically, a liberal. And anti-gun, although she would also tell you about tramping around the fields as a teen with a .22 on her back, shooting at small animals.)

109 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:08:40am

re: #107 Cannadian Club Akbar

Sorry, I went with Geico..

I've heard on the internets that everyone on this board is Progressive...

110 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:08:53am

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

We're still holding a grudge against the Romans ever since they destroyed our second Temple.

111 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:09:16am

re: #105 Leonidas Hoplite

No but everyone needs volcano insurance. As it just so happens...

I'm afraid all the virgins around here are busy this week. What if we threw in a package of chocolate that hadn't been unwrapped yet?

112 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:09:20am

I think the reference I was making in my #1 was too obscure.

From a little piece I had found on a hot pink blog, I thought I first saw posted here before.
Cache link
excerpt
Is Ron Paul the reincarnation of the Apostle Paul? To read this piece by Betty Freauf (one time Republican, now member of the Constitution Party) you would believe he is a cross between God, St. Paul, George Washington, and Martin Luther. When third party whacks starting mentioning the word “sacrifice” it gets a little scary.

113 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:09:34am

re: #82 Obdicut

Greats wedding pics, grats!

On your spending list, you left off nuclear power plants. Seems one area left and right should agree?

114 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:09:38am

re: #109 JasonA

I've heard on the internets that everyone on this board is Progressive...

That's only at night.
/

115 baier  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:09:44am

re: #100 Obdicut

Oh, okay. I don't entirely agree; there are many cases where if you don't spend now, you will wind up spending later. If you can spend $50,000 to put in place a system that will decrease farm erosion, you can avoid spending millions in environmental damage, lost jobs, and food support down the road. A lot of the time, an expenditure makes sense even if you have to spend into the deficit to do it.

That does not mean the majority of our spending is of that nature, but I do think it's very important that people not overlook that the choice is often between different amounts of spending at different times, not spending or no spending.

I understand, that as far as stimulus is concerned, government spending can be efficient (there is not saving), more efficient than cutting the tax burden on citizens. I also understand and agree that there are good ways to spend money, many. However, I believe that politics intrudes far too much on government spending and allows politicians to much influence on the private sector. I also believe that during down turns it is better to let people adapt to current economic conditions as soon as possible. Extending unemployment benefits and other social programs that will all end eventually is only delaying the inevitable music we will have to face. The longer we wait, the more painful it will be.

116 Kragar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:10:03am

New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) leader Peter Wagner, mentor to Lou Engle, links 90's stock market problems to demonic rituals

Footage from a 1993 video shows Hayford enthusiastically introducing and endorsing a talk during which his colleague C. Peter Wagner claimed that the early 1990's economic downturn of the Japanese economy was due to what Wagner depicted as a Shinto ritual in which Japanese emperors have sexual intercourse with a demonic sky-goddess being that, posited Wagner, may have been a succubus. Wagner blamed slack Japanese stock prices on the alleged tryst. As British religious scholar Richard Bartholomew notes, C. Peter Wagner's treatment of the Shinto ceremony is factually dubious on a number of counts.
US GOP Senator John Ensign belongs to the 5-10 million member (estimates vary) denomination, the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, which Church on The Way Pastor Jack Hayford has headed for 5 years. Hayford gave the benediction at former president George W. Bush's 2001 inaugural prayer sevice. In 2006 Senator Ensign addressed the Foursquare Gospel International Church's yearly convention via a videotaped message. In 2003, Senator Ensign traveled to Philadelphia and addressed the yearly Foursquare Gospel convention in person. Jack Hayford has also been one of the regularly featured speakers at Promise Keeper events. The Promise Keepers, which John Ensign joined in college, has promoted evangelists who practice demon deliverance, otherwise known as exorcism.

117 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:10:18am

re: #113 filetandrelease

Where have you been?

118 Four More Tears  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:10:58am

re: #116 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oy and vey.

119 baier  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:11:26am

re: #115 baier

I understand, that as far as stimulus is concerned, government spending can be efficient (there is not saving), more efficient than cutting the tax burden on citizens. I also understand and agree that there are good ways to spend money, many. However, I believe that politics intrudes far too much on government spending and allows politicians to much influence on the private sector. I also believe that during down turns it is better to let people adapt to current economic conditions as soon as possible. Extending unemployment benefits and other social programs that will all end eventually is only delaying the inevitable music we will have to face. The longer we wait, the more painful it will be.

pardon the many grammatical errors, I working at the same time :)

120 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:13:12am

re: #94 Amory Blaine

Jesus Christ the Republican party is delusional

Speaking of delusional, here's Billy Kristols response

121 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:13:50am

re: #115 baier

I understand, that as far as stimulus is concerned, government spending can be efficient (there is not saving), more efficient than cutting the tax burden on citizens. I also understand and agree that there are good ways to spend money, many. However, I believe that politics intrudes far too much on government spending and allows politicians to much influence on the private sector. I also believe that during down turns it is better to let people adapt to current economic conditions as soon as possible. Extending unemployment benefits and other social programs that will all end eventually is only delaying the inevitable music we will have to face. The longer we wait, the more painful it will be.

The idea as I understood it is that if we stimulate the economy and extend unemployment programs we can prime the pump of the economy back up to running speed quickly enough that we would only need to extend the unemployment benefits for a reasonably short time before things got back to normal.....

122 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:14:17am

re: #115 baier

I understand, that as far as stimulus is concerned, government spending can be efficient (there is not saving), more efficient than cutting the tax burden on citizens. I also understand and agree that there are good ways to spend money, many. However, I believe that politics intrudes far too much on government spending and allows politicians to much influence on the private sector. I also believe that during down turns it is better to let people adapt to current economic conditions as soon as possible. Extending unemployment benefits and other social programs that will all end eventually is only delaying the inevitable music we will have to face. The longer we wait, the more painful it will be.

So the unemployed can lose their homes, get more into debt, have no money to spend to help "stimulate" the economy. In other words fuck the unemployed. They are spoiled anyway.

123 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:14:47am

re: #120 Amory Blaine

Speaking of delusional, here's Billy Kristols response

OMG Billy Kristol is right about something, RAISE THE RAPTURE INDEX!

124 Kragar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:14:50am

re: #118 JasonA

Oy and vey.

The heathern practices of Demon Rites can be linked to most of the world's problems todays. The rest belong to the plague of unbelief generated by the atheists.

///

125 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:15:31am

re: #123 jamesfirecat

Rapture Index. Heh. Upding.

126 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:16:05am

re: #43 Obdicut

Yes, there is 'escaping' that. Government spending during a recession is overwhelmingly agreed to be necessary. An examination of the spending patterns during the recovery from the Great Depression shows this rather clearly. It is a fringe, mainly Austrian Economics view that cutting spending in a recession is a good idea.

Not only are we spending way, way too much, we are also saddling the future economy with promises that the federal government will provide even more stuff for people. This is a problem, and saying that thinking that way is a "fringe" idea doesn't make it go away.

There is no analogy between your credit card/personal finances and the nations economy. It doesn't exist, any more than your own personal health relates to the health of the nation at large.

Yes, there is.

127 baier  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:16:34am

re: #122 blueraven

So the unemployed can lose their homes, get more into debt, have no money to spend to help "stimulate" the economy. In other words fuck the unemployed. They are spoiled anyway.

An appeal to emotion is a type of argument which attempts to arouse the emotions of its audience in order to gain acceptance of its conclusion. Despite the example of Mr. Spock from the original Star Trek television series, emotion is not always out of place in logical thinking. However, there is no doubt that strong emotions can subvert rational thought, and playing upon emotions in an argument is often fallacious.

128 Kragar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:16:43am

re: #125 Cannadian Club Akbar

Rapture Index. Heh. Upding.

I need to get a bumpersticker "You know I'm going to LMAO when I see you after the Rapture, right?"

129 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:16:57am

re: #124 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The heathern practices of Demon Rites can be linked to most of the world's problems todays. The rest belong to the plague of unbelief generated by the atheists.

///

Oh, I'm ready to lay a healthy chunk of blame at the feet of the demon known as "Greed," and another large part gets thrown to "sloth," and we can hit up "selfishness" while we're at it.

130 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:17:37am

re: #126 cliffster

Yes, there is.

No there isn't.

You can't say Micro and Macro economics work the same way.

Just like how you can't say Micro and Macro evolution works the same way....

131 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:17:47am

re: #115 baier

I also believe that during down turns it is better to let people adapt to current economic conditions as soon as possible. Extending unemployment benefits and other social programs that will all end eventually is only delaying the inevitable music we will have to face. The longer we wait, the more painful it will be.

Indeed. There are a bunch of bridges still waiting for the next population of families to move under. They need to get adjusted to this new life as soon as possible.//

132 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:17:50am

re: #29 Obdicut

Congrats again, and it's kind of you to put up the pictures. And yes she is.

133 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:17:51am

FWIW, my boss, a flaming liberal, pays me partially in cash because of taxes he pays. And the tax cuts will soon expire. But no one raised taxes.

134 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:17:55am

re: #122 blueraven

So the unemployed can lose their homes, get more into debt, have no money to spend to help "stimulate" the economy. In other words fuck the unemployed. They are spoiled anyway.

How long should an unemployed person receive benefits?

135 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:18:24am

re: #122 blueraven

So the unemployed can lose their homes, get more into debt, have no money to spend to help "stimulate" the economy. In other words fuck the unemployed. They are spoiled anyway.

Basically. Especially when they lose their jobs because some distant private company f'ed up (BP, Goldman, w/e), and any attempt to have said company face the consequences is referred to as a shakedown or communist takeover. Screw the Republicans.

136 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:18:33am

re: #127 baier

An appeal to emotion is a type of argument which attempts to arouse the emotions of its audience in order to gain acceptance of its conclusion. Despite the example of Mr. Spock from the original Star Trek television series, emotion is not always out of place in logical thinking. However, there is no doubt that strong emotions can subvert rational thought, and playing upon emotions in an argument is often fallacious.

It is a practical argument. Don't be so obtuse.

137 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:19:12am

re: #127 baier

An appeal to emotion is a type of argument which attempts to arouse the emotions of its audience in order to gain acceptance of its conclusion. Despite the example of Mr. Spock from the original Star Trek television series, emotion is not always out of place in logical thinking. However, there is no doubt that strong emotions can subvert rational thought, and playing upon emotions in an argument is often fallacious.

You don't need to be emotional to understand that lowering consumer confidence is going to further the recession. Cutting unemployment for millions of workers amidst the worse recession since the 30s sends a message to all consumers. Those who are collecting now, and those who fear they will be collecting.

138 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:19:16am

re: #128 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I need to get a bumpersticker "You know I'm going to LMAO when I see you after the Rapture, right?"

[Link: www.customizedstickers.com...]
Have at it!!

139 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:20:32am

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

How long should an unemployed person receive benefits?

As long as his fellow citizens, who know and risk job loss themselves, want him to.

140 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:20:36am

re: #136 blueraven

It is a practical argument. Don't be so obtuse.

Ignore the human factor. Libertarians are selfish pricks.

141 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:22:15am

re: #137 Amory Blaine

You don't need to be emotional to understand that lowering consumer confidence is going to further the recession. Cutting unemployment for millions of workers amidst the worse recession since the 30s sends a message to all consumers. Those who are collecting now, and those who fear they will be collecting.

Actually, having been through a layoff with my husband, most people stop spending when the bad news comes down. Unemployment is only supposed to cover the very basics.

We started spending again when we had the signed offer.

142 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:22:42am

re: #135 Basho

Didn't the former Gubner of New Jersey run Goldman Sachs?

143 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:22:56am

re: #140 Basho

Ignore the human factor. Libertarians are selfish pricks.


"You think Ryan's gonna be there for ya when you're down n' out? No... Fontaine, Fontaine's the man with the helping hand!"

144 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:23:09am

re: #130 jamesfirecat

No there isn't.

You can't say Micro and Macro economics work the same way.

Just like how you can't say Micro and Macro evolution works the same way...

Yes, there is. A government can sugar-coat its economic situation by debt-spending, and that debt can come back and bite it in the ass later. In fact, it will come back and bite it in the ass, it's just a question of how hard it will bite.

Throwing out the fact that there is no one-to-one correlation between personal finance and government finance is just obfuscating the topic. Of course there is no one-to-one correlation. The only reason to make that argument is because you don't want to argue with the actual substance of the topic.

145 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:23:32am

re: #141 EmmmieG

Actually, having been through a layoff with my husband, most people stop spending when the bad news comes down. Unemployment is only supposed to cover the very basics.

We started spending again when we had the signed offer.

Well, car payments are "necessary" while on unemployment and so is the internet. Not so much when income drops to 0

146 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:23:46am

re: #141 EmmmieG

Actually, having been through a layoff with my husband, most people stop spending when the bad news comes down. Unemployment is only supposed to cover the very basics.

We started spending again when we had the signed offer.

You could have received job training at the homeless shelter!
/

147 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:23:56am

re: #117 Cannadian Club Akbar

I am in the boating business and this time of year very busy. Today, a bit fried and needing a break, I lurk daily, just no time to chat.

148 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:24:38am

re: #143 jamesfirecat

"You think Ryan's gonna be there for ya when you're down n' out? No... Fontaine, Fontaine's the man with the helping hand!"

"On the surface, I once bought a forest. The parasites claimed that the land belonged to God, and demanded that I establish a public park there. Why? So the rabble could stand slack-jawed under the canopy and pretend that it was paradise *earned*. When Congress moved to nationalize my forest, I burnt it to the ground. God did not plant the seeds of this Arcadia - I did. "

149 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:25:03am

re: #147 filetandrelease

I am in the boating business and this time of year very busy. Today, a bit fried and needing a break, I lurk daily, just no time to chat.

Just haven't seen you in a while.

150 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:25:13am

re: #144 cliffster

Yes, there is. A government can sugar-coat its economic situation by debt-spending, and that debt can come back and bite it in the ass later. In fact, it will come back and bite it in the ass, it's just a question of how hard it will bite.

Throwing out the fact that there is no one-to-one correlation between personal finance and government finance is just obfuscating the topic. Of course there is no one-to-one correlation. The only reason to make that argument is because you don't want to argue with the actual substance of the topic.

Okay then lets talk about the substance.

How does the government make money to pay off this huge debt?

I think it does it through taxes, am I right so far?

151 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:25:20am

re: #144 cliffster

Do you accept that there are some forms of spending where the choice is either to spend amount X now, or amount 10X in the future, at time Y?

And that in those cases, it makes sense to spend X now even as deficit spending, because X+X(interest) < 10X?

152 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:25:52am

re: #145 Amory Blaine

Well, car payments are "necessary" while on unemployment and so is the internet. Not so much when income drops to 0

Actually, if you are looking for a job, the internet is necessary. I suppose in a real pinch, you could use the local library.

153 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:25:55am
MP3 Audio

Come with me...

154 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:25:58am

re: #146 Basho

You could have received job training at the homeless shelter!
/

Interesting point. Dragon_Lady has lots of experience in an industry with unemployment in excess or 25%, arguably far higher. But if she sign up for training above a few hours a week she becomes unavailable for work. And so unqualified to get unemployment.
Rock, meet hard place.

155 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:26:02am

re: #150 jamesfirecat

Okay then lets talk about the substance.

How does the government make money to pay off this huge debt?

I think it does it through taxes, am I right so far?

Payroll taxes help.

156 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:26:30am

re: #142 Cannadian Club Akbar

Didn't the former Gubner of New Jersey run Goldman Sachs?

And the current governor's budget cuts are causing massive teacher layoffs.

157 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:27:27am

re: #152 EmmmieG

Actually, if you are looking for a job, the internet is necessary. I suppose in a real pinch, you could use the local library.

When I was unemployed, I would go to places and they told me to go to their web site. The intertubes is VERY important these days

158 baier  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:27:37am

re: #156 Basho

And the current governor's budget cuts are causing massive teacher layoffs.

/All teachers have the right to work, regardless of economic realities.

159 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:27:55am

This dumb statement of his, I think, will eventually lead to him offering a cure for the nation. But we already know what that is - less government, more religion, losing section 1 of the 14th amendment, wishing everyone is Christian, creationism and racial segregation. Couple all that with the whacked libertarian notion of laissez-faire economics and we've got a sour pill for America.

160 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:28:15am

re: #156 Basho

And the current governor's budget cuts are causing massive teacher layoffs.

God forbid they should lay off someone in admin.

161 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:28:19am

re: #156 Basho

And the current governor's budget cuts are causing massive teacher layoffs.

Inherited.

162 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:28:30am

re: #158 baier

/All teachers have the right to work, regardless of economic realities.

Let me know when they lay off their vice cops and prison guards.

163 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:28:32am

Sounds...familiar, no?

What is the greatest lie every created? What is the most vicious obscenity ever perpetrated on mankind? Slavery? The Holocaust? Dictatorship? No. It's the tool with which all that wickedness is built: altruism. Whenever anyone wants others to do their work, they call upon their altruism. Never mind your own needs, they say, think of the needs of... of whoever. The state. The poor. Of the army, of the king, of God! The list goes on and on. How many catastrophes were launched with the words "think of yourself"? It's the "king and country" crowd who light the torch of destruction. It is this great inversion, this ancient lie, which has chained humanity to an endless cycle of guilt and failure. My journey to Rapture was my second exodus. In 1919, I fled a country that had traded in despotism for insanity. The Marxist revolution simply traded one lie for another. Instead of one man, the tsar, owning the work of all the people, *all* the people owned the work of all of the people. So, I came to America: where a man could own his own work, where a man could benefit from the brilliance of his own mind, the strength of his own muscles, the *might* of his own will. I had thought I had left the parasites of Moscow behind me. I had thought I had left the Marxist altruists to their collective farms and their five-year plans. But as the German fools threw themselves on Hitler's sword "for the good of the Reich", the Americans drank deeper and deeper of the Bolshevik poison, spoon-fed to them by Roosevelt and his New Dealists. And so, I asked myself: in what country was there a place for men like me - men who refused to say "yes" to the parasites and the doubters, men who believed that work was sacred and property rights inviolate. And then one day, the happy answer came to me, my friends: there was *no* country for people like me! And *that* was the moment I decided... to build one.
164 insanity police  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:29:25am

Just noticed that Other McCain and Atlas are running a photoshop picture of Elena Kagan in a Nazi uniform. I'm disgusted, and horrified. Mel Gibson would be proud.

165 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:29:26am

re: #158 baier

How about: We really need teachers, and we really need an educated populace and workforce. We cannot compete in the global economy with a population who are ill-educated, especially after having outsourcing so many industrial jobs that don't require much education.

166 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:29:33am

re: #151 Obdicut

Do you accept that there are some forms of spending where the choice is either to spend amount X now, or amount 10X in the future, at time Y?

And that in those cases, it makes sense to spend X now even as deficit spending, because X+X(interest) < 10X?

Yes, your 100% abstract stipulation contains no logical fallacies. It doesn't address who is paying it, who is deciding what X is or that it will be 10X in the future, etc etc. But yes there are no contradictions in what you said.

167 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:29:38am

re: #162 Decatur Deb

Let me know when they lay off their vice cops and prison guards.

Are you kidding?!?!?!

They'll be watching the kiddies!!!!

168 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:29:46am

re: #163 Varek Raith

Sounds...familiar, no?

Who is John Galt? For 400?

169 Kragar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:30:09am

re: #163 Varek Raith

What is the difference between a man and a parasite? A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?' A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?' A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '

170 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:32:01am

Wanna know why I love this place? We are disagreeing and not one fuck you or mean comment towards another in the bunch.

171 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:32:03am

re: #169 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"On the surface, the scientist invests the power of his mind in a single miraculous idea and naturally begins to rise above his fellows. But the parasites say "NO! Discovery must be regulated! It must be controlled and finally surrendered.""

172 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:32:31am

re: #170 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wanna know why I love this place? We are disagreeing and not one fuck you or mean comment towards another in the bunch.

FECK OFF!

173 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:32:34am

re: #170 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wanna know why I love this place? We are disagreeing and not one fuck you or mean comment towards another in the bunch.

fuck off, akbar

174 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:32:42am

re: #170 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wanna know why I love this place? We are disagreeing and not one fuck you or mean comment towards another in the bunch.

STFU Akbar.

175 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:32:52am

re: #170 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wanna know why I love this place? We are disagreeing and not one fuck you or mean comment towards another in the bunch.

I can help out if needed?

176 baier  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:32:53am

re: #170 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wanna know why I love this place? We are disagreeing and not one fuck you or mean comment towards another in the bunch.

/I've always hated you.

177 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:32:59am

re: #166 cliffster

Yes, your 100% abstract stipulation contains no logical fallacies. It doesn't address who is paying it, who is deciding what X is or that it will be 10X in the future, etc etc. But yes there are no contradictions in what you said.

Of course those are all parts that have to be figured out. You cannot, however, assume that all spending will bite us in the ass, because there are also lots and lots of times where lack of spending will bite us in the ass, as well.

The answer is not more or less spending. It is how we are spending, what we are spending on, and how effectively we are spending. To me, it makes a lot more sense to focus on individual cases of spending that is either unnecessary or for something that's doing it wrong, than to talk in general about raising or lowering spending, when talking about what government spending should be long-term.

178 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:33:39am

Stirring the pot

179 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:33:55am

re: #165 Obdicut

How about: We really need teachers, and we really need an educated populace and workforce. We cannot compete in the global economy with a population who are ill-educated, especially after having outsourcing so many industrial jobs that don't require much education.

I was trying to reply, but I was so shocked by such a stupid remark I couldn't write. Thanks for doing the work.

180 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:34:20am

re: #178 Cannadian Club Akbar

Stirring the pot

When it rains...

181 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:35:30am

re: #158 baier

/All teachers have the right to work, regardless of economic realities.

As well as all fund managers./

We don't need no stinkin education!

Youtube Video
182 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:35:54am

re: #178 Cannadian Club Akbar

Stirring the pot

Image: jack+burton+2.jpg

(obscure?)

183 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:36:16am

re: #181 blueraven

As well as all fund managers./

We don't need no stinkin education!


[Video]

Down ding for a double negative.
/

184 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:36:25am

We need teachers is as true as we can't spend what we don't have. There must be balance.

185 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:36:34am

re: #181 blueraven

As well as all fund managers./

We don't need no stinkin education!


[Video]

But if we have an educated populace, where will all the knee-jerk conservative reactionaries come from?

186 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:37:05am

re: #166 cliffster

Yes, your 100% abstract stipulation contains no logical fallacies. It doesn't address who is paying it, who is deciding what X is or that it will be 10X in the future, etc etc. But yes there are no contradictions in what you said.

Materials and labor prices are down now. We'd spend less now doing maintenance that will cost more later, both in terms of competing for materials and labor in a healthy, recovering, saturated market, and because deferred maintenance inherently costs more to fix later. This is precisely the time to repair our aging infrastructure.

187 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:38:06am

re: #186 goddamnedfrank

Materials and labor prices are down now. We'd spend less now doing maintenance that will cost more later, both in terms of competing for materials and labor in a healthy, recovering, saturated market, and because deferred maintenance inherently costs more to fix later. This is precisely the time to repair our aging infrastructure.

Not to mention it will put is in much better position to capitalize on a roaring economy later on.

188 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:38:35am

re: #157 Cannadian Club Akbar

When I was unemployed, I would go to places and they told me to go to their web site. The intertubes is VERY important these days

Like every other service the internet provides, 99.999% of it is junk. I signed up to several job sites and now get phishing email scams for my trouble. Nothing like the unregulated free market that is the worldwide web.

189 ZeroGain  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:38:42am

I've been hearing this rhetoric for years, even back in Clinton's two terms. It's hyperbole and cake for the masses. The best people who use this will then draw you the ten parallels as to why we're like the Roman Empire in decline, and most of them will use socio-political mumbo-jumbo to boot.

However, it doesn't mean he's entirely wrong about the end result:

#24 cliffster
...I can bust out my credit card and make it look like I am extremely successful for a few years, but it's eventually going to screw me.

The flaws in this manic spending philosophy doesn't take a genius to see, and so far it's the only philosophy/strategy that The One (a.k.a. The Lightworker, a.k.a.re:

He who will Fill the Hole in your Soul) and his chosen disciples can muster.

I'm hearing that a number of people and businesses who can are shifting as much of their income and gains as they can into this year to avoid new taxes next year, and so the increases you're seeing now are false. This makes a certain amount of sense to me, though I'm not an economist by any means.

#43 Obdicut

I'd have to disagree with you on that. Your wide consensus is suspect because it is politically motivated. Universally the Left will agree that everything Roosevelt did was divine, while the Right will say it's complete hogwash, and vice versa about Regan who used an entirely different mandate. Even so both sides will say that their chosen demigod was better than the other's and the facts be damned, or pull out obscure numbers.

However since you support massive government spending, do you truly believe that this spending is properly placed and that Veep Biden is doing his mandated job adequately in managing the money, or is he blowing smoke up various orifices?

Also, how can we afford to continue borrowing if we no longer have backers? Once the loans stop being supported all we have left is inflation, and with no limits in place I fear waking up to an economy like Zimbabwe's.

190 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:39:19am

re: #186 goddamnedfrank

That's a really good point. The government is one entity that is best poised to take advantage of markets like that.

And we will need a small economic bump short-term (I mean, more than we already do need one) because of the yuan floating; it's good long-term, but it means higher retail prices in the immediate future which means, probably, a smaller Christmas season.

191 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:39:27am

It's Pieday!

Pie of the Day: Fabulous Fruit Tart.

192 ZeroGain  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:39:50am

And I'm sorry, I completely screwed up the formatting on that...

193 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:40:18am

re: #188 Basho

I get 20 email a day on the one I have had since 1997. I have 4 more addresses.

194 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:40:20am

re: #186 goddamnedfrank

Materials and labor prices are down now. We'd spend less now doing maintenance that will cost more later, both in terms of competing for materials and labor in a healthy, recovering, saturated market, and because deferred maintenance inherently costs more to fix later. This is precisely the time to repair our aging infrastructure.

Except we have to borrow the money to pay for it there by increasing our cost with interest. And adding to our dept, the growing gorilla in the closet.

195 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:40:58am

re: #192 ZeroGain

And I'm sorry, I completely screwed up the formatting on that...

Boo! Hiss!!
/

196 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:41:36am

re: #193 Cannadian Club Akbar

I get 20 email a day on the one I have had since 1997. I have 4 more addresses.

I set up an msn account specifically for job hunting so that the crap like that wouldn't end up in my actual account.

197 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:41:37am

re: #189 ZeroGain

However since you support massive government spending, do you truly believe that this spending is properly placed and that Veep Biden is doing his mandated job adequately in managing the money, or is he blowing smoke up various orifices?

I'm sorry, I'm having difficulty seeing due to that flaming strawman you're burning.

198 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:42:02am

re: #191 Alouette

It's Pieday!

Pie of the Day: Fabulous Fruit Tart.

Is every Friday a Pie Day?

199 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:42:15am

re: #194 filetandrelease

What is the cost of not spending money on infrastructure, please?

200 Gus  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:42:23am

Right. The "cash for clunkers" program will be the cause of the fall of the republic.

Less than 100 year ago this nations still suffered through institutionalized racism; primitive medical care for everyone including the economic elite; rampant poverty; child labor; etc. You get the picture.

201 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:42:34am

re: #198 eclectic infidel

Is every Friday a Pie Day?

No. EVERY DAY IS PIE DAY!!

202 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:42:41am

re: #189 ZeroGain


However since you support massive government spending, do you truly believe that this spending is properly placed and that Veep Biden is doing his mandated job adequately in managing the money, or is he blowing smoke up various orifices?


Wait the VP has a job besides making the party ticket more diverse and breaking ties in the senate which ware never going to happen now that we just fillibuster everything?

203 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:42:51am

re: #199 Obdicut

What is the cost of not spending money on infrastructure, please?

Image: minneapolis_bridge_collapse.jpg

204 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:43:14am

re: #198 eclectic infidel

Is every Friday a Pie Day?

Sometimes it's a Cake Day, but I'm really into pies now.

205 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:43:28am

re: #201 Cannadian Club Akbar

No. EVERY DAY IS PIE DAY!!

OMG!

206 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:43:31am

re: #194 filetandrelease

Except we have to borrow the money to pay for it there by increasing our cost with interest. And adding to our dept, the growing gorilla in the closet.

Except that the people who are getting paid to do the work pay taxes and so do the people who work for them. They then spend money on various goods which causes various and sundry industries to make money which they then pay taxes on. Provided we use that money to pay down debt incurred (or invested) as opposed to using it for new spending we could find our way out of this mess.

207 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:43:54am

re: #177 Obdicut

Of course those are all parts that have to be figured out. You cannot, however, assume that all spending will bite us in the ass, because there are also lots and lots of times where lack of spending will bite us in the ass, as well.

The answer is not more or less spending. It is how we are spending, what we are spending on, and how effectively we are spending. To me, it makes a lot more sense to focus on individual cases of spending that is either unnecessary or for something that's doing it wrong, than to talk in general about raising or lowering spending, when talking about what government spending should be long-term.

Of course there are times when spending is necessary. When I say that debt spending will bite us in the ass, I'm saying it will have to be paid back. There are consequences to going into debt, no matter what.

208 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:44:09am

re: #204 Alouette

Sometimes it's a Cake Day, but I'm really into pies now.

Are cream pies easy to make? I'm a whacky devotee of banana cream pie.

209 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:44:10am

re: #200 Gus 802

CfC was stoopid. Ask junk yard owners or people who need a used carburetor for their truck.

210 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:44:27am

re: #185 PT Barnum

But if we have an educated populace, where will all the knee-jerk conservative reactionaries come from?

from the same place as the bobble headed liberal droolers come from

211 Gus  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:44:43am

re: #209 Cannadian Club Akbar

CfC was stoopid. Ask junk yard owners or people who need a used carburetor for their truck.

It might have been stupid but it wasn't the end of the world.

212 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:45:14am

So if no matter what we do, and all government spending is borrowed money, isn't it better to spend the money now than wait till x when inflation will demand more money to be spent for the same result?

213 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:45:18am

re: #207 cliffster

Of course there are times when spending is necessary. When I say that debt spending will bite us in the ass, I'm saying it will have to be paid back. There are consequences to going into debt, no matter what.

Agree. But there are also consequences to pulling back on spending.

214 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:45:43am

re: #208 eclectic infidel

Are cream pies easy to make? I'm a whacky devotee of banana cream pie.

Just follow the directions. Recipies are generally recomendations. Not so with baking and pastry.

215 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:45:50am

re: #210 albusteve

from the same place as the bobble headed liberal droolers come from

The universities?

216 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:46:07am

re: #191 Alouette

It's Pieday!

Pie of the Day: Fabulous Fruit Tart.

I like that the recipe is for two tarts of different sizes. Nobody has two tart pans the same size! (I only have one tart pan. Made an apricot tart this week.)

217 Gus  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:46:08am

US empire collapses. Experts in the UK are pointing to a possible cause: New Coke™

//

218 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:46:16am

re: #215 eclectic infidel

The universities?

public schools!

219 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:46:23am

re: #212 Amory Blaine

So if no matter what we do, and all government spending is borrowed money, isn't it better to spend the money now than wait till x when inflation will demand more money to be spent for the same result?

I meant to say "stimulus spending"

220 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:46:57am

re: #218 albusteve

public schools!

Home schooling!
Wait...

221 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:47:07am

re: #208 eclectic infidel

Are cream pies easy to make? I'm a whacky devotee of banana cream pie.

Cream pies are tricky, I have to keep practicing. You have to get the custard just right, not too runny and not so thick that it's gummy.

Last week I made chocolate cream pie and it was great! So I used the same custard base this week for the fruit tart.

222 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:47:16am

re: #217 Gus 802

US empire collapses. Experts in the UK are pointing to a possible cause: New Coke™

//

New Coke was THE most brilliant marketing idea ever.

223 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:47:23am

re: #212 Amory Blaine

So if no matter what we do, and all government spending is borrowed money, isn't it better to spend the money now than wait till x when inflation will demand more money to be spent for the same result?

What results... you know something I don't know?

224 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:47:30am

re: #207 cliffster

Of course there are times when spending is necessary. When I say that debt spending will bite us in the ass, I'm saying it will have to be paid back. There are consequences to going into debt, no matter what.

Well as we're already in debt we should probably worry about having a robust economy that can make payments and decrease the debt further down the line than worrying about digging in a little deeper.


Or to put in a completely far too simply way that only has the barest margin of truth connected to this situation.....

You don't worry about the water bill while the house is on fire...

225 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:47:41am

re: #189 ZeroGain

...how can we afford to continue borrowing if we no longer have backers? Once the loans stop being supported all we have left is inflation, and with no limits in place I fear waking up to an economy like Zimbabwe's.

What do you suppose our state and federal parks could be sold for?

226 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:47:45am

re: #221 Alouette

Cream pies are tricky, I have to keep practicing. You have to get the custard just right, not too runny and not so thick that it's gummy.

Last week I made chocolate cream pie and it was great! So I used the same custard base this week for the fruit tart.

Yes, the custard base is the trickiest part.

227 Gus  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:48:14am

re: #222 Cannadian Club Akbar

New Coke was THE most brilliant marketing idea ever.

That still around? I just bought a can of plain old Diet Coke™

228 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:48:16am

re: #216 wrenchwench

I like that the recipe is for two tarts of different sizes. Nobody has two tart pans the same size! (I only have one tart pan. Made an apricot tart this week.)

I had too much dough for one pie, so I used up the rest of the dough for the small pie. Also to give my son something to eat before Shabbat. :)

229 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:48:18am

re: #207 cliffster

Of course there are times when spending is necessary. When I say that debt spending will bite us in the ass, I'm saying it will have to be paid back. There are consequences to going into debt, no matter what.

But the spending, and the debt, in many cases will bite us in the ass less hard than not spending would have. That is why you have to examine spending on a case-by-case basis. The lack of spending means that you don't get whatever you'd spend it on.

To equate it to your credit-card analogy (which is still very, very faulty, but I'll engage with for this purpose), it makes a lot more sense to go into debt on your credit card even at significant interest, in order to make a payment on a car and not lose that car to repossession, or to fix a leak in your ceiling before the next large rainstorm comes and causes much more damage to your property.

230 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:48:18am

re: #223 Walter L. Newton

What results... you know something I don't know?

Infrastructure improvements.

231 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:48:20am

re: #218 albusteve

public schools!

weren't we just talking the other day how the home schoolers were raising a bunch of unscientific morons?

That leaves private schools and I trust corporations to educate my kids as much as I trust them to take appropriate safety precautions when drilling underwater.

232 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:48:23am

re: #218 albusteve

public schools!

And home schools (like public schools, there will be exceptions).

233 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:48:38am

re: #221 Alouette

Make a "mother custard" that you're good at. Then add ingredients to it.:)

234 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:48:54am

re: #221 Alouette

Cream pies are tricky, I have to keep practicing. You have to get the custard just right, not too runny and not so thick that it's gummy.

Last week I made chocolate cream pie and it was great! So I used the same custard base this week for the fruit tart.

I just go to Dairy Queen and get a French Silk Blizzard...

235 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:49:55am

re: #199 Obdicut

Reduced spending this year, maybe next etc... does not mean not spending.

At some point increased borrowing resulting in spiraling dept will come home to roost. We are approaching half a trillion in interest payments alone. What is the cost of this dept if our credit rating gets reduced by a factor? Very ugly.

236 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:50:04am

re: #225 eclectic infidel

What do you suppose our state and federal parks could be sold for?

I have a bid in on Mesa Verde

237 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:50:30am

BBL--Have a great afternoon (except you, Akbar).

238 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:50:31am

Personally, I will be glad when the American Empire comes crashing down, if only for one reason - it will force the exceptionalists to admit that there ever was an empire to begin with.

239 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:50:57am

re: #222 Cannadian Club Akbar

New Coke was THE most brilliant marketing idea ever.

As a kid I remember the Diet Pepsi ads. Slender women in short shorts softly smacking a golf ball.

"..Diet Pepsi won't go to your waist, so now you see it, now you don't!"

240 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:51:52am

re: #237 Decatur Deb

BBL--Have a great afternoon (except you, Akbar).

DAMNIT!!

241 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:51:53am

re: #235 filetandrelease

Reduced spending this year, maybe next etc... does not mean not spending.

At some point increased borrowing resulting in spiraling dept will come home to roost. We are approaching half a trillion in interest payments alone. What is the cost of this dept if our credit rating gets reduced by a factor? Very ugly.

Wait how does that work?

We're one 1.4 trillion or so in debt last time I checked, did we borrow at 40-50% annually?

242 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:52:03am

Despite the 50% fraud rate ( [Link: www.npr.org...] ) Congress voted to extend the $8,000 homebuyer tax credit.

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

This is a headscratcher....

243 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:52:17am

re: #235 filetandrelease

And I'm saying that every time you say that you want to decrease spending, it is meaningless if you don't identify what you want decreased-- and that you need to analyze whether that decrease in spending now will actually lead to much larger costs later, as is often the case.

244 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:52:47am

re: #243 Obdicut

And I'm saying that every time you say that you want to decrease spending, it is meaningless if you don't identify what you want decreased-- and that you need to analyze whether that decrease in spending now will actually lead to much larger costs later, as is often the case.

10% ACROSS THE BOARD!11!!

245 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:52:48am

re: #238 Cato the Elder

Personally, I will be glad when the American Empire comes crashing down, if only for one reason - it will force the exceptionalists to admit that there ever was an empire to begin with.

"The Roman Empire was neither Roman nor Empire, discuss."

--Linda Richman, Coffee Talk (SNL), mid 1990's I think.

246 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:53:36am

re: #206 PT Barnum
I do understand that, and agree in principal. Although I would prefer tax breaks to private companies to hire, IMO, the economy gets a greater return on investment.

Although as I suggested to Obdicut earlier, one area I would gladly agree on today is in building nuclear reactors. Job creation and future energy Independence seems a no brainer.

247 Gus  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:53:39am

Public schools, private schools. I'm in the minority I guess. I happen to think that American's alleged ignorance is way overrated.

248 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:53:39am

re: #208 eclectic infidel

Are cream pies easy to make? I'm a whacky devotee of banana cream pie.

I spent one summer searching for the best banana cream pie in Redlands, CA. It was at a lunch counter, the name of which I can't remember. It was a very hot summer, and used any excuse to hang out in somebody's air conditioned premises.

249 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:53:41am

These historically illiterate Roman empire analogies have been the last refuge of political scoundrels for at least 200 years.

Rand would apparently have us believe that barbarians overran Rome because bureaucrats spent all the money on welfare and pop-culture (bread and circuses), while the slaves ran off to orgies and such and let the aqueducts silt up, thereby polluting everyone's precious bodily essences.

In fact, Rome had been officially Christian for a century and a half by the time of the final collapse. The bread and circuses style of imperial populism had been a very successful aspect of Roman governance at the height of its power but was largely a thing of the past by Christian times.

250 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:53:43am

Gotta go. Smelling a suspicous burning smell, and nobody will admit knowledge.

251 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:54:23am

re: #242 reuven

Despite the 50% fraud rate ( [Link: www.npr.org...] ) Congress voted to extend the $8,000 homebuyer tax credit.

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

This is a headscratcher...

totally insane...more fucking govt interference in the market, which needs to adjust itself naturally....idiots will never learn, that's why we are where we are, stupid, dimwit morons

252 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:55:11am

re: #189 ZeroGain


Also, how can we afford to continue borrowing if we no longer have backers? Once the loans stop being supported all we have left is inflation, and with no limits in place I fear waking up to an economy like Zimbabwe's.

Hmmm, where have I heard this comparison before

253 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:55:20am

re: #120 Amory Blaine

Speaking of delusional, here's Billy Kristols response

This might be the first time Kristol has ever been right....

254 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:56:13am

All right. I have my 25th High Skool Reunion to go to. I have to get my casual on (tomorrow is the fancy, I ain't going). Flip flops and shorts. I'll be wearing some Columbia canvas shoes. Only because I am an elitist. Heh. Good afternoon Honcos.

255 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:57:05am

re: #242 reuven

Despite the 50% fraud rate ( [Link: www.npr.org...] ) Congress voted to extend the $8,000 homebuyer tax credit.

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

This is a headscratcher...

We can afford the hit... it's good for the economy. Think of all the jobs it will save or create... especially for lawyers.

256 Gus  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:57:54am

Strange ticker at BBC News:

Unmanned cargo craft fails in bid to dock with International Space station

In bid?

257 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:58:12am

re: #242 reuven

Despite the 50% fraud rate ( [Link: www.npr.org...] ) Congress voted to extend the $8,000 homebuyer tax credit.

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

This is a headscratcher...

From the link

The extension is only for those buyers who signed a purchase contract by April 30 and need extra time to close their deals. The deadline to close was Wednesday and the extension will push that deadline to Sept. 30. The incentive offers up to $8,000 for certain buyers.

258 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:58:21am

re: #256 Gus 802

Strange ticker at BBC News:

Unmanned cargo craft fails in bid to dock with International Space station

In bid?

Skynet.
We're boned.

259 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:58:35am

re: #244 Varek Raith

10% ACROSS THE BOARD!11!!

Agreed- and I'll do you one better.

Cut 10% across the board and increase taxes 10% with the proviso that the additional 10% raised will only be used to reduce the deficit.

It won't take long to erase the red ink.

I firmly believe most Americans will go along with that.

260 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:58:36am

re: #241 jamesfirecat
Last year our interest pmts were close to 400 billion, slightly less than the year before. Our total dept is over 11 trillion .

261 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:59:12am

re: #256 Gus 802

Strange ticker at BBC News:

Unmanned cargo craft fails in bid to dock with International Space station

In bid?

Damned Russians trying to gouge us again.

262 Gus  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 11:59:27am

re: #258 Varek Raith

Skynet.
We're boned.

Something.

This morning I failed in my bid to hit the trash chute with my household refuse.

//

263 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:00:31pm

re: #251 albusteve

If there was some "small business" tax credit that had a 50% fraud rate, they'd be trying to legislate it out of existence. Obama and Democrats in Congress want to make changes to the--currently legal--way "S" corporations are taxed. (See the "H.R. 4213, the American Jobs and Closing Tax Loopholes Act of 2010". ) Yet a tax _credit_ that has a 50% fraud rate, they're all fine with. I just don't get it.

264 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:00:47pm

re: #262 Gus 802

Something.

This morning I failed in my bid to hit the trash chute with my household refuse.

//

Don't you see?!?!
Skynet controls the cargo ship, man!
CHEMTRAILS~~~

265 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:01:00pm

re: #251 albusteve

totally insane...more fucking govt interference in the market, which needs to adjust itself naturally...idiots will never learn, that's why we are where we are, stupid, dimwit morons

What the fuck is this constant moan about "markets adjusting themselves naturally"?

Markets are made by people. There is nothing "natural" about them. Apes don't have 'em, or dogs, or bees.

My clothes don't adjust themselves naturally, my hair and beard need regular trims, and my car won't refill itself with gas, oil, or coolant.

So, pray tell, what is more "natural" about letting the "market" be rigged by inside players and the wealthy (through, say, monopolies and cartels, which seem to be one "natural" endpoint of market development) than allowing government to take a hand as well?

Yes, I know, the fashion is to hate government, but I actually trust it more than my local monopolist.

266 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:01:01pm

re: #260 filetandrelease

Last year our interest pmts were close to 400 billion, slightly less than the year before. Our total dept is over 11 trillion .

Ahh gotcha sorry my bad, by the way since you're so good with numbers do you also happen to have how much the government tends to make yearly so I see what percent of our budget 400 billion would be?

267 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:01:41pm

re: #262 Gus 802

Something.

This morning I failed in my bid to hit the trash chute with my household refuse.

//

And you call yourself a Lizeroid.

268 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:02:19pm

re: #259 researchok

How much will cutting 10% across the board cost us?

For example, cutting the NIH by 10% will cut $3.2 billion from the basic science research that our pharmaceutical companies depend on, not to mention the direct results of slower progress in finding cures and palliatives for new diseases.

How much will the loss of that research cost us?

269 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:03:14pm

re: #263 reuven

If there was some "small business" tax credit that had a 50% fraud rate, they'd be trying to legislate it out of existence. Obama and Democrats in Congress want to make changes to the--currently legal--way "S" corporations are taxed. (See the "H.R. 4213, the American Jobs and Closing Tax Loopholes Act of 2010". ) Yet a tax _credit_ that has a 50% fraud rate, they're all fine with. I just don't get it.

The extension is only for those who signed purchase agreements by April 30. It is just an extension for closing date, not an across the board extension of the program.

270 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:03:25pm

re: #251 albusteve

totally insane...more fucking govt interference in the market, which needs to adjust itself naturally...idiots will never learn, that's why we are where we are, stupid, dimwit morons

There has been tremendous pressure to regulate this plasmid business. There have been side effects: blindness, insanity, death. But what use is our ideology if it is not tested? The market does not respond like an infant, shrieking at the first sign of displeasure. The market is patient, and we must be too.

271 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:04:03pm

re: #265 Cato the Elder

What the fuck is this constant moan about "markets adjusting themselves naturally"?

Markets are made by people. There is nothing "natural" about them. Apes don't have 'em, or dogs, or bees.

My clothes don't adjust themselves naturally, my hair and beard need regular trims, and my car won't refill itself with gas, oil, or coolant.

So, pray tell, what is more "natural" about letting the "market" be rigged by inside players and the wealthy (through, say, monopolies and cartels, which seem to be one "natural" endpoint of market development) than allowing government to take a hand as well?

Yes, I know, the fashion is to hate government, but I actually trust it more than my local monopolist.

you are living proof....
of something

272 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:04:11pm

re: #270 jamesfirecat

There has been tremendous pressure to regulate this plasmid business. There have been side effects: blindness, insanity, death. But what use is our ideology if it is not tested? The market does not respond like an infant, shrieking at the first sign of displeasure. The market is patient, and we must be too.

Lol.
And some say video games are a waste of time...
:)

273 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:04:16pm

re: #268 Obdicut

How much will cutting 10% across the board cost us?

For example, cutting the NIH by 10% will cut $3.2 billion from the basic science research that our pharmaceutical companies depend on, not to mention the direct results of slower progress in finding cures and palliatives for new diseases.

How much will the loss of that research cost us?

Government has a long, proud and well deserved reputation for inefficiency and waste.

I am quite sure we can eliminate a minimum of 10% waste from the system without impacting the quality of the services.

274 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:04:20pm

re: #248 wrenchwench

I spent one summer searching for the best banana cream pie in Redlands, CA.

Searching for the best ever type of food is such a fun hobby. After my mom died, my dad and I went on a hunt for the best crab fingers in southeast Texas. We made day trips of it, traveling all over, going to seafood restaurants to check out their crab fingers. It was time with my dad (who passed away about 6 months later) that I will forever cherish.

275 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:06:37pm

Andrew Ryan for President!!!

276 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:06:48pm

re: #273 researchok

Government has a long, proud and well deserved reputation for inefficiency and waste.

I am quite sure we can eliminate a minimum of 10% waste from the system without impacting the quality of the services.

Yes, but blindly cutting 10% across the board isn't going to find the waste any more than blindly digging holes will help you find gold....

277 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:07:39pm

re: #273 researchok

Government has a long, proud and well deserved reputation for inefficiency and waste.

I am quite sure we can eliminate a minimum of 10% waste from the system without impacting the quality of the services.

It's nice to be sure about things.

How do we do that, then? What 10% of the NIH's budget should we cut, please?

Who, exactly, is going to determine what 10% of the NIH's budget is 'waste'? Please keep in mind that the heads of scientific research institutions consider the NIH to be incredibly underfunded.

278 SpaceJesus  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:08:07pm

dibs on getting to be Alaric I

279 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:08:21pm

re: #273 researchok

Government has a long, proud and well deserved reputation for inefficiency and waste.

I am quite sure we can eliminate a minimum of 10% waste from the system without impacting the quality of the services.

Private industry has a long proud and well deserved history of inefficiency and waste. How else do you explain that our entire economic model relies on shipping jobs overseas to be performed by slave wage labor?

280 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:08:29pm

re: #277 Obdicut

It's nice to be sure about things.

How do we do that, then? What 10% of the NIH's budget should we cut, please?

Who, exactly, is going to determine what 10% of the NIH's budget is 'waste'? Please keep in mind that the heads of scientific research institutions consider the NIH to be incredibly underfunded.

Well, we can start with Gorebull Warming and Eeevilution...
/

281 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:09:08pm

re: #276 jamesfirecat

Yes, but blindly cutting 10% across the board isn't going to find the waste any more than blindly digging holes will help you find gold...

Yes, it will.

Agencies and programs will be forced to operate more efficiently.

There are some who believe waste and inefficiency cost us up to 30% a year.

Finding 10% ought not be too big a burden.

282 calochortus  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:09:16pm

re: #29 Obdicut

Obdicut, thanks for posting the photos. You and your wife are a lovely couple.

283 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:09:41pm

re: #279 Amory Blaine

How else do you explain that our entire economic model relies on shipping jobs overseas to be performed by slave wage labor?

... with the largest companies paying not one cent in taxes.

284 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:09:41pm

re: #243 Obdicut
That is nice to say, meaningless that is, but that in it self is meaningless to me.

I contend that the federal goverment in general need to reduce spending. Across the board will do nicely. I am sure you could come up with some solid ideas on your own.

Didn't we just send 800 million to Gaza? That would be a nice start.

285 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:10:37pm

re: #281 researchok

Yes, it will.

Agencies and programs will be forced to operate more efficiently.

There are some who believe waste and inefficiency cost us up to 30% a year.

Finding 10% ought not be too big a burden.

Some say you can find someone to say anything.

286 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:10:49pm

re: #266 jamesfirecat

Ahh gotcha sorry my bad, by the way since you're so good with numbers do you also happen to have how much the government tends to make yearly so I see what percent of our budget 400 billion would be?


0

287 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:11:09pm

Back on topic for a sec.

From the link at the top:

His campaign manager, Jesse Benton, said he had to get back to Bowling Green for a family birthday party.

Benton said Paul uses the fall of Rome as an analogy to explain the country's current economic situation.

This Jesse Benton used to work for Pops, ie Ron Paul. No surprise. In that capacity, he lied. From NRO on November 20, 2007:

I read Mona Charen’s column on Friday and I had to clear a few things up. Outside of the name-calling (“kook,” as I’m sure you remember, was the attack word of choice used by critics of Barry Goldwater), Charen was way off base.

[...]

Dr. Paul has focused all of his energy on winning the presidency so he can cut the size of government and protect the freedom of every American. Neither he nor his staff is going to waste time screening donors. If a handful of individuals with views anathema to Dr. Paul’s send in checks, then they have wasted their money. I cannot profess to understand the motivations of Don Black as neither Dr. Paul nor I know who he is, but a simple Google search shows that his $500 contribution has netted him at least 88 news hits, including Charen’s column. Perhaps a better explanation for his “contribution” is not support for Ron, but the attention he knew he would receive.

From LGF on Dec 20, 2007:

An LGF reader emailed this photograph, showing Ron Paul at the Values Voters Presidential Debate in Fort Lauderdale on September 17, 2007. Immediately to Paul’s left: Don Black, the owner of neo-Nazi hate site Stormfront.

Therefore I wouldn't believe Benton's excuses for what Rand meant by his "fall of Rome" comments:

"Rand is deeply concerned about the debt and unsustainable overspending in our country," Benton said in a statement. "He uses Rome as a metaphor to show that great nations can fall if they are not vigilant in protecting their traditions. He believes that millions of Kentuckians share that same concern."
288 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:11:34pm

re: #269 blueraven

If we're trying to close a budget gap, extending any tax credit is a questionable strategy. Especially one that had, according to the IRS, a 50% fraud rate.

(And my personal belief is that it won't do anything to make homes "more affordable". All it will do is prop up house prices.)

289 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:11:34pm

re: #273 researchok

Government has a long, proud and well deserved reputation for inefficiency and waste.

I am quite sure we can eliminate a minimum of 10% waste from the system without impacting the quality of the services.

Fine, then let me make the same, baseless, antithetical to reality assurance about the military budget. Damn, we already fought these wars on the cheap and look what it got us.

290 ShaunP  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:12:09pm

re: #281 researchok

Yes, it will.

Agencies and programs will be forced to operate more efficiently.

There are some who believe waste and inefficiency cost us up to 30% a year.

Finding 10% ought not be too big a burden.

Do you think that cutting 10% of the federal budget across the board won't mean losing more jobs?

291 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:12:19pm

re: #279 Amory Blaine

There are entire sections of private industry that are nothing but waste, and proud of it.

Perez Hilton comes to mind.

I've never understood why people assume that the government is more inefficient on a real scale than private industry. Private industry is good at surviving in the marketplace; the marketplace doesn't actually demand useful goods or services, nor sustainable goods and services. Private markets give us flim-flam medicines, industries that pollute so much that they're a net loss if one considers the price of cleaning, ameliorating, or adapting to their pollution, and tons of parasitic forms of services which produce nothing of any actual benefit.

The market rewards things that the market rewards; it doesn't provide what is needed, but what is wanted. And in many cases-- like the Tulip Mania in Holland or the derivatives market here-- it produces an economy of such wastefulness and disorder that it collapses in a very short time.

292 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:12:31pm

re: #288 reuven

If we're trying to close a budget gap, extending any tax credit is a questionable strategy.

Or a tax cut....

293 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:12:53pm

re: #29 Obdicut

Very OT:

I put a page up with three pictures from my wedding reception, for any who are interested.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

More of the actual wedding will be coming.

Obi..You married up!
Congratulations and best wishes for the future...

294 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:13:18pm

re: #279 Amory Blaine

Private industry has a long proud and well deserved history of inefficiency and waste. How else do you explain that our entire economic model relies on shipping jobs overseas to be performed by slave wage labor?

Actually, from a purely economic standpoint (not taking into account poliotical implications) shipping jobs overseas id highly efficient.

Many, many studies have shown that Walmart helps marginal earners stay afloat because their prices are low- and that is because they buy imports. Regardless of what you think of Walmart, they service and fill a need for low cost food, clothes, commodities, etc.

295 jamesfirecat  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:14:03pm

re: #281 researchok

Yes, it will.

Agencies and programs will be forced to operate more efficiently.

There are some who believe waste and inefficiency cost us up to 30% a year.

Finding 10% ought not be too big a burden.

Just telling a agency "you have 10% less budget" wont insure the 10% that gets eliminated is waste.

Now if you want to start some kind of private or government probe into how the money is spent we might be onto something...

296 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:14:04pm

re: #281 researchok

Then please explain how we do it, using the NIH as an example. Who do you think is well-suited to identifying the 10% of 'waste' that you're sure is in the NIH's budget?

297 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:14:16pm

re: #292 webevintage

Did you hear me asking for a tax cut? I just don't think it's the time to raise them.

298 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:14:23pm

re: #294 researchok

Actually, from a purely economic standpoint (not taking into account poliotical implications) shipping jobs overseas id highly efficient.

Many, many studies have shown that Walmart helps marginal earners stay afloat because their prices are low- and that is because they buy imports. Regardless of what you think of Walmart, they service and fill a need for low cost food, clothes, commodities, etc.

Well, sure.
It helps to move your stuff to places with no labor laws.

299 Amory Blaine  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:15:44pm

re: #294 researchok

Actually, from a purely economic standpoint (not taking into account poliotical implications) shipping jobs overseas id highly efficient.

Many, many studies have shown that Walmart helps marginal earners stay afloat because their prices are low- and that is because they buy imports. Regardless of what you think of Walmart, they service and fill a need for low cost food, clothes, commodities, etc.

Yes. Slavery is very efficient. And profitable.

300 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:15:47pm

re: #294 researchok

Regardless of what you think of Walmart, they service and fill a need for low cost food, clothes, commodities, etc.

In many smaller communities is is WalMart that created the need. Nice business model.

301 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:16:30pm

re: #291 Obdicut

I've never understood why people assume that the government is more inefficient on a real scale than private industry

.

It is not an assumption. It is simple. Business survives on profit, government on taxes.

302 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:19:13pm

re: #297 reuven

Did you hear me asking for a tax cut? I just don't think it's the time to raise them.

Ummmm, no...I was just riffing off of your comment....

303 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:19:19pm

re: #301 filetandrelease

.

It is not an assumption. It is simple. Business survives on profit, government on taxes.

And that profit can be profit from meaningless products, or from actually destructive products. You can make a lot of money selling cigarettes, and the government can spend a lot of money researching ways to cure cancer, but only one of those activities is actually producing something meaningful.

That a good or service is an economic success says nothing about whether that good or service is actually needed, useful, or sustainable.

Here's a book recommendation for those wanting to get deeper into this topic:

Cradle to Cradle

I'm hoping this coming century is the one where we start to really engage with design. I think that we're intellectually poised for it-- I hope, because damn, we really need it.

304 Vambo  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:19:29pm

re: #300 allegro

In many smaller communities is is WalMart that created the need. Nice business model.

well said.

305 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:19:37pm

re: #285 Varek Raith

Some say you can find someone to say anything.

Do you believe government is efficient?

Suppose I need a hammer. I go to the store and buy a hammer.

When government needs a hammer, there is a request submitted. That request is then looked at by a supervisor. If passed on, that approved request is passed on to the purchasing dept. They pass the request on to the warehouse of hammers or to a manufacturer who fill send the hammer when there are enough hammers to send. Then, the appropriate agency will advise the hammer is available and will be shipped to a local facility where it will then be shipped again or available for pickup.

Then the user will efficiently use the hammer (hopefully). and not lost it and thus start the process all over again.

I could go on but you get the point. And yes, this is how much of government works. My problem isn't with the end user. My problem is with just about everyone else along the way.

306 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:20:04pm

re: #300 allegro

In many smaller communities is is WalMart that created the need. Nice business model.

Wow... that's terrible... creating a need for lower priced items. That's almost un-American. I have to agree with you, I'd rather see Walmart fail and go under than see them continue to help out people with limited cash flow. That's the governments job to see to it that people have all the money then need for pricier items.

307 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:20:22pm

"This 4th of July, remember to light your fireworks away from our highly flammable shorelines" (someecards.com)

308 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:21:00pm

re: #305 researchok

Say I need to buy a hammer at the company I work at.

There is a request submitted. That request is then looked at by a supervisor. If passed on, that approved request is passed on to the purchasing dept. They pass the request on to the warehouse of hammers or to a manufacturer who fill send the hammer when there are enough hammers to send. Then, the appropriate department will advise the hammer is available and will be shipped to a local facility where it will then be shipped again or available for pickup.

Your complain is about bureaucracy, not government.

309 Vambo  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:21:27pm

re: #306 Walter L. Newton

Wow... that's terrible... creating a need for lower priced items. That's almost un-American. I have to agree with you, I'd rather see Walmart fail and go under than see them continue to help out people with limited cash flow. That's the governments job to see to it that people have all the money then need for pricier items.

They created the need by putting other stores out of business. Low prices can helpful when you're un- or under-employed.

310 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:21:50pm

re: #300 allegro

In many smaller communities is is WalMart that created the need. Nice business model.

they are satan, but my hubby works for satan so support them I must...

(and Target is no better or pretty much any big box retail place)

311 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:21:54pm

re: #303 Obdicut

I agree, but we were talking efficiency. And the government does not always do good work, IE, the coast guard delaying the A-whale skimmer for 70 days and counting from getting into the gulf.

312 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:22:27pm

Ghana Scores! What a strike!
Halftime..Boy this is fun being soccer and all

313 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:22:43pm

re: #298 Varek Raith

Well, sure.
It helps to move your stuff to places with no labor laws.

Everyone wants cheap tomatoes. That is why there is no real move to remove illegal aliens in CA and elsewhere who do all the manual farm labor or those in the construction trades.

314 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:22:56pm

re: #311 filetandrelease

And private industry does not always do good work: i.e. the giant oil spill that's in the Gulf right now.

315 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:23:14pm

re: #311 filetandrelease

I agree, but we were talking efficiency. And the government does not always do good work, IE, the coast guard delaying the A-whale skimmer for 70 days and counting from getting into the gulf.

Of course, if BP hadn't been negligent with their drilling...
Double edged sword is double edged.

316 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:23:26pm

re: #310 webevintage

I prefer Target because there have been fewer successful legal actions against them wrt mistreatment of labor. (For example [Link: www.nytimes.com...] )

317 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:23:47pm

re: #308 Obdicut

Say I need to buy a hammer at the company I work at.

There is a request submitted. That request is then looked at by a supervisor. If passed on, that approved request is passed on to the purchasing dept. They pass the request on to the warehouse of hammers or to a manufacturer who fill send the hammer when there are enough hammers to send. Then, the appropriate department will advise the hammer is available and will be shipped to a local facility where it will then be shipped again or available for pickup.

Your complain is about bureaucracy, not government.

Yes, it is (though no one does bureaucracy better than the government). And asking to eliminate 10% dead weight is not asking for a lot.

318 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:23:55pm

re: #309 Vambo

They created the need by putting other stores out of business. Low prices can helpful when you're un- or under-employed.

That's even more terrible. I think that should be illegal. Other stores have the right to exist. Maybe we could nationalize the all the department stores in the country and regulate who sells what and for how much and when and when they have sales and when they don't have sales and when they should open and when they should close...

319 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:24:08pm

Adam Smith's "invisible hand" turns eventually into the mortmain of power, wealth, and monopoly. Without the government to put the brakes on, we would all be about 100 more likely to die of E. coli poisoning from our friendly neighborhood profitheads.

320 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:24:10pm

re: #308 Obdicut

Say you need a hammer in my company, you go get one and damn well better use it.

321 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:24:19pm

re: #309 Vambo

They created the need by putting other stores out of business. Low prices can helpful when you're un- or under-employed.

Except, except the people in those towns could continue to shop locally and support their neighbors but they don't. Hell, how often does a local coffee place go out of business if Starbucks comes to town or a restaurant if a Cracker Barrel moves in. It sucks because in the end the American consumer is their own worst enemy.

322 Vambo  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:24:24pm

re: #309 Vambo

They created the need by putting other stores out of business. Low prices can helpful when you're un- or under-employed.

also, in the long run how sustainable is the American lifestyle if everything we buy comes from third world countries overseas?

323 ryannon  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:24:45pm

re: #248 wrenchwench

I spent one summer searching for the best banana cream pie in Redlands, CA. It was at a lunch counter, the name of which I can't remember. It was a very hot summer, and used any excuse to hang out in somebody's air conditioned premises.

There's a beautiful restored mission style railroad station in Redlands....

324 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:25:01pm

re: #317 researchok

Yes, it is (though no one does bureaucracy better than the government). And asking to eliminate 10% dead weight is not asking for a lot.

Then please explain how we eliminate 10% of dead weight from the NIH budget.

325 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:25:23pm

re: #297 reuven

Did you hear me asking for a tax cut? I just don't think it's the time to raise them.

If something goes on sale, when the sale expires it goes back to the regular price. Bush's Treasury Department tried and were unable to put a polish on the tax cuts generate revenue turd of an idea. Cutting spending puts more people out of work, which smothers consumer confidence, and in turn lowers tax revenue which augers for further spending cuts.

It's a recipe for a three layer souflé of nothing but lose-lose-lose, which is guaranteed to fall.

326 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:25:43pm

re: #321 webevintage

Except, except the people in those towns could continue to shop locally and support their neighbors but they don't. Hell, how often does a local coffee place go out of business if Starbucks comes to town or a restaurant if a Cracker Barrel moves in. It sucks because in the end the American consumer is their own worst enemy.

Wait... wait... wait... Starbucks is ok, becuase they are a green company... not like the local coffee shop who still used those horrible waxed coffee cups made out of cardboard.

327 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:25:49pm

re: #314 Obdicut
No body every does, but we were still talking efficiency.

328 Vambo  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:25:58pm

re: #318 Walter L. Newton

That's even more terrible. I think that should be illegal. Other stores have the right to exist. Maybe we could nationalize the all the department stores in the country and regulate who sells what and for how much and when and when they have sales and when they don't have sales and when they should open and when they should close...

It's hard to compete with slave labor. That's all.

329 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:25:58pm

re: #259 researchok

Agreed- and I'll do you one better.

Cut 10% across the board and increase taxes 10% with the proviso that the additional 10% raised will only be used to reduce the deficit.

It won't take long to erase the red ink.

I firmly believe most Americans will go along with that.

Let's do a bit of math here (please note these are all rough back of the napkin estimates), Increase taxes by 10% across the board Our current Tax burden is about 2.7 Trillion dollars, so you're looking at a 270Bln Tax increase.

Cutting 10% across the board would give a 310Bln decrease in the economy.

Before any multipliers, you're looking at about a 600 billion dollar decrease in the GDP of the United States. Currently, it's at about 15 Trillion, So a decrease of 600Bln would give a Real World Drop of 4% to the GDP of the US.

It would be like having a major Recession right off the bat, without any ability of the Government to help cushion the blow. Then add in the additive shock of having decreased tax revenues from the recession itself (which was a significant part of the increase of the deficit in the first place), and you'll look at increasing the deficit by the very effort to decrease it in the first place.

There is going to be a time and a place to reduce the deficit and the debt, but NOW is the absolute worst time to go for austerity measures.

330 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:26:05pm

re: #306 Walter L. Newton

Wow... that's terrible... creating a need for lower priced items.

Yes, it is terrible. There's a reason why a number of communities around the country are refusing to allow a WalMart from coming in. A WalMart is built that quickly and efficiently puts the mom and pop family businesses out of business. All those wonderful WalMart jobs that are promised are mostly.minimum wage sans benefits. Town squares are boarded up with businesses gone, no more jobs that offer living wages and voila, WalMart has a captive clientele.

As I said, great business model for WalMart. Sucks for the communities.

331 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:26:24pm

re: #322 Vambo

also, in the long run how sustainable is the American lifestyle if everything we buy comes from third world countries overseas?

We change, adapt, that's sort of what the buggy whip market had to do... remember?

332 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:26:31pm

re: #323 ryannon

There's a beautiful restored mission style railroad station in Redlands...

They did all the cool stuff after I left. They even have a big 5 day bike race there now.

333 tnguitarist  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:27:18pm

re: #300 allegro

In many smaller communities is is WalMart that created the need. Nice business model.

When I have more time, I'll tell a good story about Wal-mart muscling a family member out of business.

334 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:27:19pm

re: #324 Obdicut

Then please explain how we eliminate 10% of dead weight from the NIH budget.

Does Rosie O'Donnel work there?

335 Vambo  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:28:08pm

re: #321 webevintage

Except, except the people in those towns could continue to shop locally and support their neighbors but they don't. Hell, how often does a local coffee place go out of business if Starbucks comes to town or a restaurant if a Cracker Barrel moves in. It sucks because in the end the American consumer is their own worst enemy.

You know what's funny is that Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks are actually more expensive than the local/independent coffee shops here, and yet they are twice as popular. Consumers are retarded.

336 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:28:12pm

re: #324 Obdicut

Then please explain how we eliminate 10% of dead weight from the NIH budget.

An answer.
Receive you will not.

337 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:28:42pm

re: #324 Obdicut

Then please explain how we eliminate 10% of dead weight from the NIH budget.

I submit like any other government agency there are a whole lot of paper pushers.

The NIH in Britain employs more paper pushers than health care workers.

In terms of size, the NIH is second only to India Rail in terms of employees.

We can find 10% waste, inefficiency and bureaucracy to eliminate.

338 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:28:47pm

re: #334 filetandrelease

Austerity measures don't mean recycling jokes from 1999, man.

No, Rosie O'Donnell doesn't work at the NIH. The NIH, considered to be underfunded by most scientific institutions and organizations, is mainly a place that funds the sort of basic science research that industry doesn't. It assigns these in the forms of competitive grants.

339 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:29:15pm

re: #319 Cato the Elder

Adam Smith's "invisible hand" turns eventually into the mortmain of power, wealth, and monopoly. Without the government to put the brakes on, we would all be about 100 more likely to die of E. coli poisoning from our friendly neighborhood profitheads.

Is anybody suggesting that there should be absolutely no government involved in anything?

340 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:29:38pm

re: #328 Vambo

It's hard to compete with slave labor. That's all.

Depends on what you consider slave labor... I'm working as a cashier for a large supermarket chain right now... only part time... it's a lot of hard work for 10 bucks an hour... I am a careered computer programmer, for thirty years, haven't had a full time programming gig in 6 years... I'm not whining about the job at all, and it's much harder work than most people would do in a cubicle corporate situation.

I enjoy the heck out of it. And I keep myself busy earning money in a number of little side ventures, plus I still do an occasional programming project for clients from home... why is it I'm not complaining?

341 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:29:49pm

re: #339 cliffster

Is anybody suggesting that there should be absolutely no government involved in anything?

Rand Paul.

342 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:30:32pm

re: #333 tnguitarist

When I have more time, I'll tell a good story about Wal-mart muscling a family member out of business.

When I have more time, I'll tell you about a business that put the horse and buggy market out of business. The world didn't come to an end.

343 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:30:50pm

re: #334 filetandrelease

Does Rosie O'Donnel work there?

Great. When in doubt, tell a fat-people joke.

*SMACK*

344 Vambo  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:31:25pm

All hail the Mighty Wal-Mart. We shop, therefore we are.

345 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:31:26pm

In defense of Mr. Paul; Senator Byrd compared the United States of America's fate to the fall of the Roman Empire more than once.

An example...

Robert C. Byrd’s Line-Item Veto Speech XIV (1993)...

I ain't defending Paul, I'm just saying there is a precedent.

346 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:31:26pm

re: #339 cliffster

Is anybody suggesting that there should be absolutely no government involved in anything?

Well not here at LGF, I don't think. But Ron and Rand Paul come very close to that suggestion.

347 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:32:06pm

re: #326 Walter L. Newton

Wait... wait... wait... Starbucks is ok, becuase they are a green company... not like the local coffee shop who still used those horrible waxed coffee cups made out of cardboard.

Did you know that Starbucks doesn't recycle?
No plastic or paper recycling!

348 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:32:33pm

re: #337 researchok

I submit like any other government agency there are a whole lot of paper pushers.

You'd be rather wrong. The NIH is a pretty damn lean organization.

Here's a link to their budget.

[Link: officeofbudget.od.nih.gov...]



The NIH in Britain employs more paper pushers than health care workers.

The NIH in Britain and here are not comparable. At all. In any way. In the least. Nothing similar.


We can find 10% waste, inefficiency and bureaucracy to eliminate.

Who can, and how? This is what I've been asking you, and you're not giving me any answer. You're just asserting it over and over. Please explain how to do this.

349 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:33:03pm

re: #344 Vambo

All hail the Mighty Wal-Mart. We shop, therefore we are.

Not much of a rebuttal on your part to your position. LOL.

350 ryannon  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:34:00pm

re: #332 wrenchwench

They did all the cool stuff after I left. They even have a big 5 day bike race there now.

It's a very proper, white-bread town these days. Lots of interesting architecture from the days of the big citrus growers, but kind of a boring place. I always preferred mangy, crime-ridden San Bernadino, Redlands' ugly idiot cousin.

351 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:34:22pm

Sorry, that was the budget justification-- this is the actual budget:

[Link: officeofbudget.od.nih.gov...]

352 Vambo  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:34:27pm

re: #340 Walter L. Newton

Depends on what you consider slave labor... I'm working as a cashier for a large supermarket chain right now... only part time... it's a lot of hard work for 10 bucks an hour... I am a careered computer programmer, for thirty years, haven't had a full time programming gig in 6 years... I'm not whining about the job at all, and it's much harder work than most people would do in a cubicle corporate situation.

I enjoy the heck out of it. And I keep myself busy earning money in a number of little side ventures, plus I still do an occasional programming project for clients from home... why is it I'm not complaining?

LOL, that's not the slave labor I'm talking about - I mean the actual products they sell. Not that it's all that different for other retail chains. So why did you assume I was talking about you when I mentioned slave labor?

353 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:34:47pm

Is it astonishing to me there are some people who will argue that government is efficient.

Even Obama, in the run up to health care bill, argued that medicare had to be cleaned up!

354 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:35:31pm

As a former federal employee, if I needed a hammer or any other needed item and asked for permission, the head of the department would have bitten my head off for bothering him. His response would have been, "So go get one. That's what your petty cash is for."

355 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:36:01pm

re: #330 allegro

A WalMart is built that quickly and efficiently puts the mom and pop family businesses out of business. All those wonderful WalMart jobs that are promised are mostly.minimum wage sans benefits.

I agree they suck.
And I agree that they put people out of business by offering better prices AND a larger selection and then once there is no competition the larger selection goes away.

(I tried to get Yukon Gold potatoes yesterday, they used to be there, no longer...ugh don't get me started about how much I hate shopping at WalMart.)

I agree that the pay, especially for the base is low (though not min wage).

BUT everyone gets benefits.
My son works 15-20 hours and if we did not have him on our insurance he could get pretty decent coverage for $15 a paycheck.
He gets part of the quarterly bonus too.
He gets a a few vacation days too.

356 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:36:03pm

re: #346 blueraven

Well not here at LGF, I don't think. But Ron and Rand Paul come very close to that suggestion.

They take it pretty far. But taking that to it's logical extreme is pretty pointless. It is exactly the same as trying to argue against local restaurant codes because there are also restaurant codes in communism

357 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:36:08pm

re: #352 Vambo

LOL, that's not the slave labor I'm talking about - I mean the actual products they sell. Not that it's all that different for other retail chains. So why did you assume I was talking about you when I mentioned slave labor?

I didn't think you were talking about me... but I did think you were talking about retail workers when you mentioned slave labor.

358 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:36:09pm

re: #345 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'll admit, the speech has a wonderful and powerful conclusion... Read it, great bit of "I love my country" gushing going on right now in my brain...

This lesson is as true today as it was two thousand years ago. Does anyone really imagine that the splendors of our capital city stand or fall with mansions, monuments, buildings, and piles of masonry? These are but bricks and mortar, lifeless things, and their collapse or restoration means little or nothing when measured on the great clock-tower of time. But the survival of the American constitutional system, the foundation upon which the superstructure of the Republic rests, finds its firmest support in the continued preservation of the delicate mechanism of checks and balances, separation of powers, and the control of the purse, solemnly instituted by the Founding Fathers. For over two hundred years, from the beginning of the Republic to this very hour, it has survived in unbroken continuity. We received it from our fathers. Let us as surely hand it on to our sons and daughters.

Thanks Senator Byrd. That was cool.

359 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:36:24pm

re: #347 Floral Giraffe

Did you know that Starbucks doesn't recycle?
No plastic or paper recycling!

Hi Floral!
I like Seattle's finest coffee better than Starbucks...

360 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:37:08pm

re: #359 HoosierHoops

Hiya Hoops!
Ready for the 4th of July?

361 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:37:20pm

Hmmm... an actress in the Harry Potter movies was nearly the victim of an honor killing by her brother and father. Afshan Azad, the actress who plays Padma Patil in the Harry Potter movies was assaulted by her brother, and both her father and brother threatened to kill her for seeing an unnamed man. Lovely stuff.

362 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:37:31pm

I have located the source of the smell: It's outside, and I'm not sure what, but it's not my house or anything the boys set on fire.

RE: Walmart. They're finally building one closer than 45 minutes to me. Not sure I'll go back. The service is terrible, and the local Fred Meyer continues to be impressive*. Still, it will be the first Walmart in the area.

*Today, when we went to buy a pair of shoes, the lady that helped us made sure that I knew that there was an ad with a %15 off coupon, and that she had put some out where shoppers could find them. Little things like that matter.

363 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:38:00pm

re: #348 Obdicut

Who can, and how? This is what I've been asking you, and you're not giving me any answer. You're just asserting it over and over. Please explain how to do this.

Obdi, again I ask- are you suggesting that government is efficient?

Because if you are, then you are right.

If not, we can find 10%.

364 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:38:05pm

re: #355 webevintage

Watch it! You'll spoil the rhetoric!

365 Vambo  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:38:07pm

re: #349 Walter L. Newton

Not much of a rebuttal on your part to your position. LOL.

I don't understand the defense... for WAL-MART of all places. Who knew they had so many fans?

What I hate most about them is what they did the music & entertainment industries -- they are the biggest retailer in the country, and they also have a "family values" agenda, which means music artists are beholden to Wal-Mart's standards if they want to make any money.

366 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:38:45pm

re: #353 researchok

It's astonishing to me that you keep insisting we can cut 10% across the board, but you can't actually explain how to do it.

The government is one system. Private industries are another. They both have things built into them that make them inefficient. Pharmaceutical companies, for example, spend shitloads of money on advertising, meaning they're far less efficient at making and delivering drugs-- but more 'efficient' at competing with other companies.

Comparing capitalist competitive efficiency to the government will always make the government appear inefficient, because the government is not attempting to fulfill market functions but to fulfill functions not performed, or very badly performed, by free-market enterprises. Researching cures for cancer is always 'inefficient' by those standards. Selling cigarettes can be very 'efficient'.

367 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:38:48pm

re: #361 lawhawk

Hmmm... an actress in the Harry Potter movies was nearly the victim of an honor killing by her brother and father. Afshan Azad, the actress who plays Padma Patil in the Harry Potter movies was assaulted by her brother, and both her father and brother threatened to kill her for seeing an unnamed man. Lovely stuff.

If this weren't such a serious topic, I would make a joke that it was for sullying the family honor by appearing at a dance with a date with THAT tuxedo.

368 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:39:37pm

re: #345 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

In defense of Mr. Paul; Senator Byrd compared the United States of America's fate to the fall of the Roman Empire more than once.

An example...

Robert C. Byrd’s Line-Item Veto Speech XIV (1993)...

I ain't defending Paul, I'm just saying there is a precedent.

Byrd was on much stronger ground, he was a sitting Senator talking about the danger posed by a specific piece of legislation. Also, he was right, that legislation that was eventually declared unconstitutional (Clinton v. City of New York.)

369 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:39:45pm

re: #365 Vambo

Well, I gotta kiss my boss's ass now and then.

370 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:40:04pm

re: #363 researchok

Obdi, again I ask- are you suggesting that government is efficient?

Because if you are, then you are right.

If not, we can find 10%.

Artful Dodger.

371 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:40:46pm

re: #364 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Watch it! You'll spoil the rhetoric!

I know quite a few people - that are barely stretching their paycheck from one month to the next - that would have a lot harder time making that stretch if it wasn't for walmart.

372 Vambo  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:40:46pm

re: #357 Walter L. Newton

I didn't think you were talking about me... but I did think you were talking about retail workers when you mentioned slave labor.

And why is that? Do you think retail workers are slaves? I work in retail - it's meaningless, unfulfilling, but if I ever thought of myself as a slave I'd have to kill myself.

373 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:41:26pm

re: #360 Floral Giraffe

Hiya Hoops!
Ready for the 4th of July?

You betcha! Next weekend I'm driving to Oklahoma for 5 or 6 days just to check it out and look at houses

374 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:41:44pm

re: #368 goddamnedfrank

So what? My point, is they essentially said the same thing.

However, Senator Byrd's version is stunningly beautiful and lyrical.

375 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:42:02pm

re: #365 Vambo

I don't understand the defense... for WAL-MART of all places. Who knew they had so many fans?

What I hate most about them is what they did the music & entertainment industries -- they are the biggest retailer in the country, and they also have a "family values" agenda, which means music artists are beholden to Wal-Mart's standards if they want to make any money.

Well... if the "family values" agenda bother an artist, then they have to decide which is more important... their artistic integrity or their financial needs... sounds like it's all up to the artist... oh... I just had one of "AHA" moments... it's Wlamarts fault... they "force" the artist to adhere to the "family values" agenda.

I see.

376 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:42:02pm

re: #330 allegro

I don't disagree with you, but that's essentially the same scenario as with Amazon.com, Strand Bookstore online, Barnes and Noble online, etc. I don't buy books at bookstores anymore - especially since it's very easy to get free shipping. On top of that there's Kindle and related technology now. There's probably no happy medium to all of this, especially when it comes to the demand for lower prices.

377 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:42:02pm

re: #373 HoosierHoops

You betcha! Next weekend I'm driving to Oklahoma for 5 or 6 days just to check it out and look at houses

Are you gonna look at the treehouse house?

378 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:42:13pm

Crap. I just found out the sales tax went up in NM, as of yesterday. Gotta go reprogram the cash register....

379 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:42:23pm

My favorite Walmart story.

When I lived in Texas, I swore that I would never do what I considered to be the ultimate redneck thing: Go into a Walmart with a baby with a dirty face and wearing nothing but a dirty diaper.

Corpus Christi. Vacation. I took a change of clothes and an extra diaper to the beach with us for the baby. No dice. He went through the clothes and the extra diaper, and so we headed back to the hotel. On the way, we needed something, so we swung by the Walmart.

I sat in the car, agonizing. Do I go in, or let my husband pick out whatever it was we needed?

I did it. I am a redneck Mama.

380 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:42:41pm

re: #338 Obdicut
Damn, I thought I made that up. If it made me laugh is it ok? Late week humor? no? sorry.

Austerity measures are serious business. No kidding around allowed.

381 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:43:01pm

re: #363 researchok

Obdi, again I ask- are you suggesting that government is efficient?

Because if you are, then you are right.

If not, we can find 10%.

How can we find the 10%? Please explain who will do this finding, and how they will determine if it is waste or not.

I reject utterly the incredibly simplistic term of 'efficient'. Efficient at doing what, exactly? Yes, I think the NIH-- or rather, the grant-administration system of the NIH-- is very, very efficient, and I don't think anyone you name is going to find 10% to cut from the NIH budget. Name me the person, process, or system you think can find 10% in the NIH budget to cut.

I think the NIH budget should be increased by about 100%, and I'll be happy to detail the areas (like asthma, hospital design, and a review of our medical school training programs) that desperately need more funding now in order to avoid spending far more money in the future.

382 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:43:21pm

re: #351 Obdicut

By the way, the NIH is a horror show.

See this.

Notwithstanding a huge budget see 'Serious flaws' in UK health care

383 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:43:53pm

re: #372 Vambo

And why is that? Do you think retail workers are slaves? I work in retail - it's meaningless, unfulfilling, but if I ever thought of myself as a slave I'd have to kill myself.

Because I misunderstood the subject of you sentence... jerk.

384 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:44:06pm

re: #382 researchok

By the way, the NIH is a horror show.

See this.

Notwithstanding a huge budget see 'Serious flaws' in UK health care

That's great.
Except, that ain't what Obdicut is talking about.
;)

385 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:44:58pm

re: #382 researchok

There is no relationship between the British NIH and the US NIH. They have the same letters in the acronyms. That is all. I have no idea why you're bringing it up.

Can you explain how to cut 10% from the NIH budget? For example, who will decide which employees are just 'paper-pushers'?

386 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:45:05pm

re: #381 Obdicut

How can we find the 10%? Please explain who will do this finding, and how they will determine if it is waste or not.

I reject utterly the incredibly simplistic term of 'efficient'. Efficient at doing what, exactly? Yes, I think the NIH-- or rather, the grant-administration system of the NIH-- is very, very efficient, and I don't think anyone you name is going to find 10% to cut from the NIH budget. Name me the person, process, or system you think can find 10% in the NIH budget to cut.

I think the NIH budget should be increased by about 100%, and I'll be happy to detail the areas (like asthma, hospital design, and a review of our medical school training programs) that desperately need more funding now in order to avoid spending far more money in the future.

I will ask again- are you suggesting government is run efficiently?

As for who will determine where the cuts come from, how about we let that be decided by managers?

387 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:45:19pm

re: #376 eclectic infidel

I don't disagree with you, but that's essentially the same scenario as with Amazon.com, Strand Bookstore online, Barnes and Noble online, etc. I don't buy books at bookstores anymore - especially since it's very easy to get free shipping.

I find better prices and have a much more enjoyable time at the local family run used book store. I get a ton of books at reduced prices and support a local family with my money staying in the community. Why I buy my produce at a farmer's market, too. Better stuff, lower prices. It can be done.

388 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:47:00pm

re: #387 allegro

Farmer's Market, Oregon Strawberries vs. Grocery store, California Strawberries

They practically aren't the same fruit. Okay, I'm biased.

389 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:47:18pm

re: #386 researchok

I will ask again- are you suggesting government is run efficiently?

As for who will determine where the cuts come from, how about we let that be decided by managers?

Nice straw man.
You mentioned 10% waste...
Where, exactly.

390 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:47:36pm

I'm sitting in the McDonald's in Schuylkill Haven, PA.

You could've knocked me over with a feather when I learned how "Schuylkill" is pronounced.

I had "Haven" right, though.

391 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:47:56pm

re: #386 researchok

I will ask again- are you suggesting government is run efficiently?

As for who will determine where the cuts come from, how about we let that be decided by managers?


But...but,... we need to let most of them go.

392 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:48:23pm

re: #384 Varek Raith

That's great.
Except, that ain't what Obdicut is talking about.
;)

Actually, it is. They are examples of government inefficiency. It is clear that huge bureaucracies do not make for better delivery of government programs.

The same criticisms are made of the Canadian health care system. Long waits for surgeries, long ER wait periods are not efficient.

Are you suggesting that government is efficient?

393 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:48:47pm

re: #379 EmmmieG

My favorite Walmart story.

When I lived in Texas, I swore that I would never do what I considered to be the ultimate redneck thing: Go into a Walmart with a baby with a dirty face and wearing nothing but a dirty diaper.

Corpus Christi. Vacation. I took a change of clothes and an extra diaper to the beach with us for the baby. No dice. He went through the clothes and the extra diaper, and so we headed back to the hotel. On the way, we needed something, so we swung by the Walmart.

I sat in the car, agonizing. Do I go in, or let my husband pick out whatever it was we needed?

I did it. I am a redneck Mama.

The important thing to remember is that you took care of the baby which trumps everything else. Warm feelings for the mama.

394 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:49:19pm

oh, and the reason Starbucks has spread they way they have is because their coffee is f***ing good. If people don't want to be displaced by Starbucks, they need to get a bigger scoop for their drip coffee..

395 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:49:29pm

re: #389 Varek Raith

Nice straw man.
You mentioned 10% waste...
Where, exactly.

I answered. Let managers decide.

Now, I'll ask you again: Do you believe government is efficient?

396 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:49:40pm

Government efficiency is an oxymoron.

397 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:49:44pm

A government run by elected representatives of the people will always feature inefficiencies, reduplication, waste, and fraud.

If you want efficiency, vote for the Fascist Party, and then pass an enabling act authorizing top down decision-making from the Leader. Then make him Leader-for-Life and turn the legislature into a rubber-stamp body of yes-men.

And bingo! The trains run on time. To Auschwitz.

398 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:49:53pm

re: #394 cliffster

I don't like it, but I know many folks who are addicted to it.

399 celticdragon  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:50:02pm

re: #127 baier

An appeal to emotion is a type of argument which attempts to arouse the emotions of its audience in order to gain acceptance of its conclusion. Despite the example of Mr. Spock from the original Star Trek television series, emotion is not always out of place in logical thinking. However, there is no doubt that strong emotions can subvert rational thought, and playing upon emotions in an argument is often fallacious.

The last we thing we would ever want is to let emotion play any role when we see things like this...

Rational utilitarianism tells us that these marginally poor people are a blight on the economy and a drain on resources better spent on more deserving people in the form of tax cuts for the top two percent, right? How else can the beautiful people afford spend an extra week in Aspen or Cabo San Lucas?

Trickle down service sector economy, bee-yotch! By denying unemployment insurance to 12 million lazy people this weekend (if we feed them and give school lunches to their kids, they might be encouraged to breed, you know...and really motivated poor people would have gotten their Galt on and started up their own business with magic unicorn dust while living on nothing but dreams and fresh air), we can pay for plenty of tax cuts down the line that might save some minimum wage jobs at the ski pro shop!

Win!

400 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:50:39pm

re: #392 researchok

Actually, it is. They are examples of government inefficiency. It is clear that huge bureaucracies do not make for better delivery of government programs.

The same criticisms are made of the Canadian health care system. Long waits for surgeries, long ER wait periods are not efficient.

Are you suggesting that government is efficient?

Stop trying to dodge the question. You said 10% waste. Where in the NIH budget is said waste?
You can't even provide and example.
Is the government efficient? No.
Do I believe your across the board cuts are bullshit? Yes.

401 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:51:07pm

re: #386 researchok

I will ask again- are you suggesting government is run efficiently?

Are you simply ignoring what I'm saying about efficiency, dude? It's really starting to seem like you are.

Yes, I think the NIH is incredibly efficient at awarding grants for research. It is excellent at it. It suffered somewhat from heavy politicization under Bush, but the long-term employees never really let it get that bad and its continued to push forwards the excellent basic science research that our economy relies on so heavily.


As for who will determine where the cuts come from, how about we let that be decided by managers?

Managers? What are you talking about? What managers?

What percentage of the NIH budget do you think is spent on staff? It's less than 10%-- and the vast majority of that is for actual researchers.

Do you know how incredibly efficient basic science research is, in terms of our economy?

[Link: www.faseb.org...]

We get a return of between 25% and 40% on basic science research from the NIH.

402 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:51:29pm

re: #379 EmmmieG

My favorite Walmart story.

When I lived in Texas, I swore that I would never do what I considered to be the ultimate redneck thing: Go into a Walmart with a baby with a dirty face and wearing nothing but a dirty diaper.

Corpus Christi. Vacation. I took a change of clothes and an extra diaper to the beach with us for the baby. No dice. He went through the clothes and the extra diaper, and so we headed back to the hotel. On the way, we needed something, so we swung by the Walmart.

I sat in the car, agonizing. Do I go in, or let my husband pick out whatever it was we needed?

I did it. I am a redneck Mama.

No way, EmmmieG - you don't get into the club that easy. There are a LOT more requirements to be met before your application for Redneck Status can be approved.

403 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:52:26pm

re: #390 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm sitting in the McDonald's in Schuylkill Haven, PA.

You could've knocked me over with a feather when I learned how "Schuylkill" is pronounced.

I had "Haven" right, though.

Friend in this area told me that I was starting to sound like a native since I was pronouncing "Schuylkill" correctly when referring to the expressway (I-76).

You spot natives of some areas of western Pennsylvania by how they butcher the pronunciation of some of the locality names that have French linguistic roots. (Such as North Versailles.)

404 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:54:22pm

re: #397 Cato the Elder

A government run by elected representatives of the people will always feature inefficiencies, reduplication, waste, and fraud.

If you want efficiency, vote for the Fascist Party, and then pass an enabling act authorizing top down decision-making from the Leader. Then make him Leader-for-Life and turn the legislature into a rubber-stamp body of yes-men.

And bingo! The trains run on time. To Auschwitz.

Ah...actually, that kind of fear-drive top down government failed to produce enough of even the basics of life (I, personally, consider shoes, clothes and toilet paper the basics), but did manage to produce some jaw-dropping pollution and even more cynicism and weariness.

This isn't theory. It's Eastern Europe and Russia. It's China, where unbridled capitalism without accountability to the people has produced unbelievable pollutions.

405 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:54:28pm

re: #402 cliffster

No way, EmmmieG - you don't get into the club that easy. There are a LOT more requirements to be met before your application for Redneck Status can be approved.

Now if you had agonized whether to let your husband and your brother to go in and they were the same person....that would be an automatic in!

406 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:54:42pm

re: #390 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Reminds me of the guy who went into the fast food place in Mexia, Texas for a burger when traveling through. He asks the lady at the counter, "How do you pronounce the name of this place?" She answered "Derree Kween."

407 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:54:43pm

re: #385 Obdicut

There is no relationship between the British NIH and the US NIH. They have the same letters in the acronyms. That is all. I have no idea why you're bringing it up.

Can you explain how to cut 10% from the NIH budget? For example, who will decide which employees are just 'paper-pushers'?

Again- let managers decide.

I am bringing it up because Britain has proved that the delivery of government services aren't efficient (my apologies for thclumsye NIH reference- I was born in the UK).

In any event, I submit we will ave to agree to disagree.

You believe government is an efficient mechanism for the delivery of services and I do not. That isn't something we ought to come to virtual blows. The difference is ideological.

408 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:54:49pm

re: #374 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So what? My point, is they essentially said the same thing.

However, Senator Byrd's version is stunningly beautiful and lyrical.

No, essentially they said very, very different things. Byrd is clearly discussing the separation of powers in government while Rand is just shitting out a brain dead contextless comparison to bread and circuses. Oh, they both said Rome, thank God you're here to make such facile observations. Rome's Republic didn't fall because of bread and circuses, it fell because of a tolerance for dictatorship. Now, if you want to make the comparison between cash for clunkers and dictatorship, I'm all eyes.

409 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:55:42pm

re: #401 Obdicut

Managers? What are you talking about? What managers?

What percentage of the NIH budget do you think is spent on staff? It's less than 10%-- and the vast majority of that is for actual researchers.

Do you know how incredibly efficient basic science research is, in terms of our economy?

[Link: www.faseb.org...]

We get a return of between 25% and 40% on basic science research from the NIH.

Obdi, that the NIH may (or may not) be efficient does not mean the entire government is efficient.

410 celticdragon  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:55:50pm

re: #396 filetandrelease

Government efficiency is an oxymoron.

When you see historic examples of efficient government, other adjectives like "relentless" and "ruthless" generally get tacked on as well.

411 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:56:09pm

re: #405 PT Barnum

Now if you had agonized whether to let your husband and your brother to go in and they were the same person...that would be an automatic in!


Back when we were engaged, we were once mistaken for brother and sister--we both have brown hair, brown eyes, and a smiliar facial structure. (Actually, he's remotely related to my brother-in-law, but I don't know of any common relatives within findable distance. Probably if I were psychic, I could find a common relative in England in 935 AD or something.)

412 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:57:00pm

re: #377 webevintage

Are you gonna look at the treehouse house?

You bet...I have several to look at...My friends think it's insane.. Why would you want to live at tree top level in tornado country..
mmm.Hadn't really thought about it..Does seem a little crazy

413 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:57:06pm

re: #411 EmmmieG

Back when we were engaged, we were once mistaken for brother and sister--we both have brown hair, brown eyes, and a smiliar facial structure. (Actually, he's remotely related to my brother-in-law, but I don't know of any common relatives within findable distance. Probably if I were psychic, I could find a common relative in England in 935 AD or something.)

No doubt...we're all committing incest in one way or another, just a matter of degree, I suppose.

414 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:57:31pm

re: #410 celticdragon

When you see historic examples of efficient government, other adjectives like "relentless" and "ruthless" generally get tacked on as well.

Now we're talkin' business!

415 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:57:37pm

re: #394 cliffster

I've got to disagree on starbucks - their ground coffee is good, if you drip it yourself. Most of their stores do not clean out their machines frequently enough and it burns the coffee ruining the taste. One of the ways to get consistent flavor is to burn the coffee beyond all recognition - taking the taste with 'em. I've found most local coffee shops do a better job than Starbucks but people like consistency - especially if they're away from home (which is why fast food joints/chains are successful).

Best place to get Starbucks though is in Seattle - where they know how to brew a good cup of coffee.

416 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:58:18pm

Alright folks, reality calls. Off to the salt mines.

Obdi, we need to talk about at a beer summit someday. As in a late summer day and a case of whatever is really, really cold.

417 Buck  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:58:19pm

Bad news is we are all gonna die.... the good news is that until then.... More Togas!

418 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:58:25pm

OT, but had an interesting dinner with my son, who was slurping down on his favorite, cherry jello at the buffet.

He asked me what was in jello. I told him gelatin.
"What's in gelatin?"

So I told him.

Now he has sworn off not only jello, but gummi worms, and marshmallows.

419 ShaunP  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:58:48pm

re: #409 researchok

Obdi, that the NIH may (or may not) be efficient does not mean the entire government is efficient.

Which is why blindly cutting 10% from every department regardless of their particular efficiencies would be fool hardy. I also wonder what part of the military you think we can cut 10% out off...

420 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:58:54pm

re: #418 PT Barnum

OT, but had an interesting dinner with my son, who was slurping down on his favorite, cherry jello at the buffet.

He asked me what was in jello. I told him gelatin.
"What's in gelatin?"

So I told him.

Now he has sworn off not only jello, but gummi worms, and marshmallows.

Did you break the news about the sausage?

421 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:59:19pm

re: #419 ShaunP

Which is why blindly cutting 10% from every department regardless of their particular efficiencies would be fool hardy. I also wonder what part of the military you think we can cut 10% out off...

$500 hammers and toilet seats.

422 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 12:59:30pm

re: #415 lawhawk

I've got to disagree on starbucks - their ground coffee is good, if you drip it yourself. Most of their stores do not clean out their machines frequently enough and it burns the coffee ruining the taste. One of the ways to get consistent flavor is to burn the coffee beyond all recognition - taking the taste with 'em. I've found most local coffee shops do a better job than Starbucks but people like consistency - especially if they're away from home (which is why fast food joints/chains are successful).

Best place to get Starbucks though is in Seattle - where they know how to brew a good cup of coffee.

Oddly enough, our local McDonalds has decent coffee now. it used to be strong enough to climb out of the cup, but now you can club it with a liberal helping of cream and sugar and it's quite nice.

423 Nervous Norvous  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:00:02pm

re: #420 EmmmieG

Did you break the news about the sausage?

No..I thought one shock to his system was enough for the evening.

424 celticdragon  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:00:41pm

re: #419 ShaunP

Which is why blindly cutting 10% from every department regardless of their particular efficiencies would be fool hardy. I also wonder what part of the military you think we can cut 10% out off...

Barracks maintenance. Troops can live in their GP mediums and shelter halves. Morale, welfare and recreation as well. While we are at it, a patriotic pay cut across the board.

////

425 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:01:02pm

re: #387 allegro

I find better prices and have a much more enjoyable time at the local family run used book store. I get a ton of books at reduced prices and support a local family with my money staying in the community. Why I buy my produce at a farmer's market, too. Better stuff, lower prices. It can be done.

Like I said in the end WalMart and all large retailers success depends on the willingness of the local consumer to willingly not shop at businesses run by their neighbors.

(of course some people have no "farmer's market" and the produce there is more expensive then at a grocery store or there is no local bookstore or even a "downtown" area with merchants for a large retailer to put out of business. That being said I hate shopping at WalMart but I do it.)

426 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:01:32pm

re: #424 celticdragon

Barracks maintenance. Troops can live in their GP mediums and shelter halves. Morale, welfare and recreation as well. While we are at it, a patriotic pay cut across the board.

///

Or maybe get out of Europe.

427 ShaunP  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:01:36pm

re: #424 celticdragon

Barracks maintenance. Troops can live in their GP mediums and shelter halves. Morale, welfare and recreation as well. While we are at it, a patriotic pay cut across the board.

///

"Patriotic pay cut." I have to remember that... :D

428 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:01:39pm

re: #422 PT Barnum

Consumer Reports rated McDonalds and Dunkin' Donuts ahead of Starbucks - and both are significantly cheaper. I'd take either over Starbucks any day of the week - and twice on Sunday.

429 Buck  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:01:51pm

re: #306 Walter L. Newton

Wow... that's terrible... creating a need for lower priced items. That's almost un-American. I have to agree with you, I'd rather see Walmart fail and go under than see them continue to help out people with limited cash flow. That's the governments job to see to it that people have all the money then need for pricier items.

Finally see the Walter L. Newton sarc without the tag. Not sure if he is making it easier, or I am getting smarter.

430 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:01:54pm

Someone mentioned it here yesterday, but I watched it last night and want to plug it, too:

[Link: www.hulu.com...]

"Abel Raises Cain", a documentary about Alan Abel. I love this guy's work and I'm not sure why.

431 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:02:45pm

re: #428 lawhawk

Consumer Reports rated McDonalds and Dunkin' Donuts ahead of Starbucks - and both are significantly cheaper. I'd take either over Starbucks any day of the week - and twice on Sunday.

Seattle's finest is good coffee

432 celticdragon  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:03:13pm

re: #422 PT Barnum

Oddly enough, our local McDonalds has decent coffee now. it used to be strong enough to climb out of the cup,

Damn! That reminds me of this scene from The Thing...

433 Obdicut  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:03:54pm

re: #407 researchok

Again- let managers decide.

What managers? Again, the NIH mainly functions as a place that awards grants. The money it spends internally are mainly on researchers, in a highly-competitive environment that produces excellent results. The managers are in no way asking for more power to fire staff, but more power to hire more staff. Currently the NIH leaves many projects unfunded because of lack of funding.

You are asserting that the managers at the NIH can decide 10% of the budget to cut while ignoring that non-research staff doesn't even comprise 10% of the budget, and that full staff is about 10% of the budget.

You believe government is an efficient mechanism for the delivery of services and I do not. That isn't something we ought to come to virtual blows. The difference is ideological.

No, the difference right now is you're not actually responding to what I'm saying. The NIH is an efficient delivery system for grants for research. It spends fare less than 10% of its budget on overhead, and it produces a return of 25% and 40% for its budget. That is efficient.

You are unable to explain how it is not efficient. You have ignored all of my more nuanced explanations of how private market and public market efficiency are quite different systems, such as the 'efficiency' of cigarette companies. You are simply asserting over and over that government is inefficient without in any way engaging with my notation of efficiency of markets not mapping to actual efficiency of good or services.

Please at least read the report on the NIH I linked above and the incredible return of the money we invest in them. If a private company had a return of 25-40%, it'd be invested in like gangbusters. Instead, the NIH has to plead every year for small budget increases. One of the reasons it has to do so is that people assume that they know something about it simply because it is part of government, and that they can therefore paint it with a broad brush.

We need science research. We need a lot more of it. Cutting our science research by 10% would cost us hugely, hugely, hugely down the road. Please, please read that link.

I'm heading home now to spend time with my newly-minted wife.

434 celticdragon  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:04:41pm

re: #432 celticdragon

Damn! That reminds me of this scene from The Thing...

Bad link...lets try again.

Youtube Video
435 celticdragon  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:06:17pm

re: #427 ShaunP

"Patriotic pay cut." I have to remember that... :D

I speak fluent Orwellian! ;)

436 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:07:51pm

Terrosist babies is comin' ta git ya!

Youtube Video

Fox!

437 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:09:07pm

Dear God, Six String Samurai?
awwwwwwesome.

How did I miss this Rockabilly Post-Apocalyptic cracktastic movies?

438 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:09:55pm

Cutting government spending will be painful. No cut will go unchallenged, none will be painless. So then, should we just not do it? Let government grow unchecked? Shall we spend our way to prosperity?

At some point printing money is just going to make the money we have worth less.

439 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:10:22pm

re: #425 webevintage

Like I said in the end WalMart and all large retailers success depends on the willingness of the local consumer to willingly not shop at businesses run by their neighbors.

I absolutely agree with you and it saddens me. Part of the problem now I think is that there aren't as many old-timers like myself who actually remember the town square and shopping at stores where we knew the owners and their families. We knew what it meant to get good service and what that community felt like.

There is a movement afoot for buying locally that I encourage at every opportunity. It's better for all.

440 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:12:09pm

re: #439 allegro
One of my favorite ski areas is Vermont, with its lack of franchise's and abundance to family restaurants and businesses, very quaint.

441 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:12:14pm

re: #418 PT Barnum

OT, but had an interesting dinner with my son, who was slurping down on his favorite, cherry jello at the buffet.

He asked me what was in jello. I told him gelatin.
"What's in gelatin?"

So I told him.

Now he has sworn off not only jello, but gummi worms, and marshmallows.

When I was about 7, I asked my dad what Elmer's glue was made out of. He said, "Oh, old horses bones and things." He was driving, so he couldn't see my face go white and my jaw hit my chest. But he heard my silence for a lot of miles. It would be even worse for something you eat, but I was a big horse nut and it was the most shocked I'd been in life so far.

442 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:12:47pm

re: #439 allegro

I absolutely agree with you and it saddens me. Part of the problem now I think is that there aren't as many old-timers like myself who actually remember the town square and shopping at stores where we knew the owners and their families. We knew what it meant to get good service and what that community felt like.

There is a movement afoot for buying locally that I encourage at every opportunity. It's better for all.

There's a lot that local governments can do to encourage people to shop locally. However, if you are a busy mom, only having to drive to one place has it's values.

443 calochortus  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:13:14pm

re: #388 EmmmieG

Farmer's Market, Oregon Strawberries vs. Grocery store, California Strawberries

They practically aren't the same fruit. Okay, I'm biased.

Strawberries are a subject near and dear to my heart, so let me add: Farmers' Market, California strawberries, vs. Grocery Store, California strawberries. They practically aren't the same fruit either. But then I live in CA, so that makes them local.

444 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:13:16pm

re: #440 filetandrelease

I believe that Vermont, or at least a number of communities in the state, is one are where they don't let the big box stores come in, for that very reason. I love that.

445 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:13:19pm

Good Soccer game on...Since the beginning of the World Cup I have been offering my new rules for the game..I'm up to:
Rule#15: No plastic cleats on the pitch.. Nice sharp baseball style spikes..
That way when a player goes down flopping like he is ready to die we will know if he's faking it or not by the presence of blood..
/OK I'm just joking...Sort of

446 freetoken  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:13:23pm

GOP chairman: Afghan 'war of Obama's choosing'


Republican National Committee chairman Michael Steele says the U.S. mission in Afghanistan is "a war of Obama's choosing" and he should have learned from history that a ground war is unlikely to succeed with the current strategy.

Steele's remarks were captured Thursday on camera at a Connecticut event closed to the media. They later were posted online. Steele had harsh words for the Democratic president and his handling of the nine-year-old war begun by Republican President George W. Bush in response to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

Steele's spokesman sought to explain the comments on Friday, saying the nation wants more answers from Obama about his plans.

So, is Steele now playing into the Paulian storyline?

447 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:14:03pm

re: #444 allegro
Beautiful state.

448 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:14:24pm

re: #439 allegro

There is a movement afoot for buying locally that I encourage at every opportunity. It's better for all.

And if not that buy from small companies online.
If I am looking for something I try to check out eBay, Etsy and just small retailers on the internet for what I need.
It does not always work and I'll admit that I buy almost all my books from Amazon except when I feel like driving 30 min to the used bookstore...it is 45 min to a "local" bookstore that sells new.

449 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:14:27pm

re: #442 EmmmieG

*Used wrong "its." Is mortified.*

450 darthstar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:16:04pm

re: #445 HoosierHoops

Good Soccer game on...Since the beginning of the World Cup I have been offering my new rules for the game..I'm up to:
Rule#15: No plastic cleats on the pitch.. Nice sharp baseball style spikes..
That way when a player goes down flopping like he is ready to die we will know if he's faking it or not by the presence of blood..
/OK I'm just joking...Sort of

Hey Hoops...Ghana dominated the end of the first half, but Uruguay has been controlling the tempo this half. Five minutes left...time for Ghana to put another push on.

451 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:17:39pm

And the Dutch beat Brazil, wow, what a game.

452 cliffster  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:17:54pm

re: #415 lawhawk

I'll agree with you on that last point. You can't get a bad cup of coffee in Seattle.

453 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:18:15pm

re: #419 ShaunP

Which is why blindly cutting 10% from every department regardless of their particular efficiencies would be fool hardy. I also wonder what part of the military you think we can cut 10% out off...

One last thing.

Evey year, the military has programs and weapons systems tehy don't want shoved down their throats by politicians- billions an bnillions of dollars worth.

Outdated bases are kept open at huge expense because local governments can't be bothered to strengthen and develop their own economies because they rely on politicians to keep these outdated facilities open in exchange for votes.

Every year, hundreds of millions of 'research' dollars are appropriated by Congresspeople for constituent businesses back home- programs the military and every other dept has not asked for or need.

Every year, federal agencies are left billions of dollars of faulty goods and services and fraudulent. Sometimes, these agencies are defrauded by corrupt companies.

Oh yeah, we can find 10%

Then there is

454 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:18:24pm

re: #450 darthstar

Hey Hoops...Ghana dominated the end of the first half, but Uruguay has been controlling the tempo this half. Five minutes left...time for Ghana to put another push on.

I'm still walking on effen air with the Netherlands upset win today..
It's the only team I root for..We shocked the whole world!

455 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:18:59pm

re: #448 webevintage

It does not always work and I'll admit that I buy almost all my books from Amazon except when I feel like driving 30 min to the used bookstore...it is 45 min to a "local" bookstore that sells new.

See, there's another thing... with the elimination of small businesses we have to drive distances for stuff that used to be close by. It blows.

456 darthstar  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:22:02pm

re: #454 HoosierHoops

I'm still walking on effen air with the Netherlands upset win today..
It's the only team I root for..We shocked the whole world!

You want me to place a 10 dollar bet for you that they'll win the whole thing?

457 calochortus  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:22:28pm

I have to confess to not understanding economics. This began in high school when the teacher explained how the money supply grows thanks to money being an asset, and then when you lend it out, the fact that it will come back to you somehow doubles it. Over the years I have not managed to improve my understanding. I understand that competition can increase productivity and lowers prices which raises our standard of living. I also understand that competition can produce a race to the bottom, leaving many people in poverty. What's a consumer to do?

That said, I try to support quality, preferably, but not necessarily, from local sources. I read somewhere that while a T-shirt at Walmart costs half as much as elsewhere, it also lasts about half as long.

458 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:22:49pm

re: #455 allegro

See, there's another thing... with the elimination of small businesses we have to drive distances for stuff that used to be close by. It blows.

It's a big wide wonderful world we live in... not everyone can or ever could drive just a short distance for whatever they wanted. The reverse of what you are saying is true too... with the addition of Walmart type stores, the distances someone has to drive to get to that Walmart is offset by the fact that now they can find what they are looking for in one place... normally the distance they had to go to get just ONE sort of item.

459 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:22:50pm

re: #451 filetandrelease

And the Dutch beat Brazil, wow, what a game.

I wore my 2006 WC Dutch uniform today..Orange top white bottoms..They are orange/black this year..I'm going to order the 2010 uniform on-line...I was throw back today...I brought the team luck!
Brazil was the #1 team in the World..We can win this effen World Cup!

460 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:24:49pm

re: #459 HoosierHoops
I do believe I will be rooting them on hence forth.

461 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:25:44pm

BBIAB - got to get ready for work... at one of those bad big box retailers. And it's the 4th of July weekend... 3 or 4 days of greedily ripping off consumers in the name of commerce.

Hey... for those who have a problems with commerce, wholesaling, retailing and how that shaped the world... read some Neal Stephenson, especially his Baroque Cycle.

462 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:25:57pm

I do remember going from shop to shop to get what you need and reallyre: #455 allegro

See, there's another thing... with the elimination of small businesses we have to drive distances for stuff that used to be close by. It blows.

Actually where I live it has always been that far and probably farther. I don't know if there was ever an independent bookstore in either Bryant or Benton Arkansas. I have a feeling people have always used the library or gone to Little Rock.

But I do agree with your point for most areas.
For me though online is better then wasting time and gas....
And if Farmer's Markets were not sold out by the time I get there (I mean really, who gets up at 8am to buy produce people? That's just nuts.) I would make the effort to go to them.

463 Nimed  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:26:11pm

re: #446 freetoken

GOP chairman: Afghan 'war of Obama's choosing'

So, is Steele now playing into the Paulian storyline?

It will be interesting to see what final narrative regarding Afghanistan will emerge from the GOP in November of 2012. So far, we have:

- Afghanistan is unwinnable, we should have cut our losses;
- Afghanistan is being mismanaged (Obama "dithers" and lacks leardership + deadline for retreat was bad idea)
- Afghanistan is winnable, but we have to commit more manpower and resources to the war.

464 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:26:23pm

re: #455 allegro

See, there's another thing... with the elimination of small businesses we have to drive distances for stuff that used to be close by. It blows.

Maybe my own career has set me in a bias- But I for one am really liking the little silver lining in the recession for jewelry making. The trend is against the big store discounters, against mass manufactured items. Especially in platinum. The business took a huge hit as you would expect overall.

But the growth is in the small local maker of custom jewelry. If her new gold whatever is a one off, both she and he will be more likely to close the sale and be far happier long term with the item. There are even stores where you use a CAD kiosk to design your jewelry before its made for you.
Made in just a few days.

Of course inexpensive silver is huge now. But the custom factor plays into that category too. As I said I have a bias, a dog in this fight. But localizing manufacture for some things seems to be one slice of the grass roots recovery pie. Maybe its a small slice but still...

465 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:26:34pm

re: #458 Walter L. Newton

It's a big wide wonderful world we live in... not everyone can or ever could drive just a short distance for whatever they wanted. The reverse of what you are saying is true too... with the addition of Walmart type stores, the distances someone has to drive to get to that Walmart is offset by the fact that now they can find what they are looking for in one place... normally the distance they had to go to get just ONE sort of item.

re: #462 webevintage

I do remember going from shop to shop to get what you need and really

Actually where I live it has always been that far and probably farther. I don't know if there was ever an independent bookstore in either Bryant or Benton Arkansas. I have a feeling people have always used the library or gone to Little Rock.

But I do agree with your point for most areas.
For me though online is better then wasting time and gas...
And if Farmer's Markets were not sold out by the time I get there (I mean really, who gets up at 8am to buy produce people? That's just nuts.) I would make the effort to go to them.

Opposite minds think alike... sometimes...

466 pharmmajor  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:27:27pm

As a rational person, I think Paul is nuts. As a victim of the economic recession, I hold some fears that he might be proven right.

467 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:28:10pm

re: #458 Walter L. Newton

It's a big wide wonderful world we live in... not everyone can or ever could drive just a short distance for whatever they wanted. The reverse of what you are saying is true too... with the addition of Walmart type stores, the distances someone has to drive to get to that Walmart is offset by the fact that now they can find what they are looking for in one place... normally the distance they had to go to get just ONE sort of item.

When a number of small businesses are gathered in a town square, or even local strip mall, the driving distance is still the same to visit different ones for different items. When such a shopping area is local, driving isn't always even necessary when there are sidewalks and bike paths.

468 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:28:27pm

re: #464 Rightwingconspirator

By the way... gotta run into the shower... but I started an Etsy store... just got a few items up (most of my stock went into area craft shops during the last two week, got to work up some more items next week)... it's here...

[Link: www.etsy.com...]

BBIAB...

469 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:28:45pm

re: #446 freetoken

GOP chairman: Afghan 'war of Obama's choosing'

So, is Steele now playing into the Paulian storyline?

Obama was president when we declared war on Afghanistan. Don't you remember that?

470 Nimed  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:28:57pm

re: #459 HoosierHoops

That was a pretty surprising result. A bit of luck in Netherlands' first goal, and great attitude by the players made it possible.

471 freetoken  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:29:01pm

re: #463 Nimed

They're throwing up every excuse tried previously in regards to other wars/military action, to see what sticks with the public. It's political marketing on the part of Steele et. al.

472 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:30:05pm

re: #467 allegro

When a number of small businesses are gathered in a town square, or even local strip mall, the driving distance is still the same to visit different ones for different items. When such a shopping area is local, driving isn't always even necessary when there are sidewalks and bike paths.

I'll say it again... it's a big wide wonderful world we live in... there are towns on the plains of Colorado that have always had to drive 50 miles to get most of what they want... now they drive 50 miles and get it all in one place... can't beat that.

You've been looking at too many Rockwell paintings... everything is not Bedford Falls.

473 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:30:27pm

re: #470 Nimed

That was a pretty surprising result. A bit of luck in Netherlands' first goal, and great attitude by the players made it possible.

And awesome defense.

474 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:30:30pm

re: #469 Cato the Elder

Obama was president when we declared war on Afghanistan. Don't you remember that?

Wanna bet this is the new talking point for the Sunday morning shows?

Kinda like when Rudi and Chaney's spawn were all over tv claiming that Bush never had a terrorist attack happen on his watch.

475 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:30:34pm

re: #471 freetoken

They're throwing up every excuse tried previously in regards to other wars/military action, to see what sticks with the public. It's political marketing on the part of Steele et. al.

Steele is a disaster for the republicans and a huge gift to the democrats.

476 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:32:00pm

re: #29 Obdicut

AAAAAGH you two look so fantastic :D

477 freetoken  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:32:25pm

Doin' the backstroke:

RNC chair Steele backtracks on Afghan war comment after call for removal

Republican National Committee Chairman Michael S. Steele is trying to quell controversy over his comments that the war in Afghanistan was of "Obama's choosing" and is not winnable, remarks that put him at odds with much of his party and that led two influential Republicans to call for his resignation.

On Friday, after a video surfaced of Steele's remarks at a Connecticut fundraiser, calls for his removal came from William Kristol, editor of the conservative magazine The Weekly Standard, and from Erick Erickson, who runs the conservative blog Red State. Democrats pounced, with a spokesman for the Democratic National Committee accusing Steele of "rooting for failure."

I wonder if Erick Son of Erick realizes that the Tea Party favs, Rand and Ron Paul, are the main champions of the Afghanistan-is-a-mistake cry?

478 filetandrelease  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:32:29pm

re: #475 blueraven

Steele is a disaster for the republicans and a huge gift to the democrats.

One that keeps on giving.

479 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:34:14pm

[Link: verydemotivational.com...]

480 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:35:02pm

re: #456 darthstar

You want me to place a 10 dollar bet for you that they'll win the whole thing?

LOL
You know I'm a complete sports nut...I subscribe to SI, Sporting news and ESPN the mag and believe we will not be an advanced civilaztion until I have at least 20 Channels of ESPN for the Big Screen...
I have never nor will ever bet on sports...Everybody I know bets on sports...Which is fine with me...It's against my religion.
Which BTW.. A have a couple of buddies that think I should run a web sports gambling site.. Like Drudge where you could portal to all the big boys but with real time rating on the sites from the registered users...
You know like a user posting I'm killing them over here right now..
A portal to a social and interactive medium for sports gamblers..
needs a catchy name

481 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:35:04pm

re: #479 Killgore Trout

[Link: verydemotivational.com...]

Take that, Mac!
/

482 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:36:22pm

re: #466 pharmmajor

As a rational person, I think Paul is nuts. As a victim of the economic recession, I hold some fears that he might be proven right.

Can you specify a particular item he might be right on?

483 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:42:55pm

re: #468 Walter L. Newton

I imagine you will see this later... But good for you. I have some extra white silk I could send if you would like to diffuse that light source for your photographs.

484 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:43:28pm

re: #472 Walter L. Newton

You've been looking at too many Rockwell paintings... everything is not Bedford Falls.

Nah, I'm just looking towards more sensible community planning that is already being looked at and tried, especially in Europe. Fortunately, I'm not alone in seeing this as a more sustainable future.

485 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:45:07pm

re: #281 researchok

Yes, it will.

Agencies and programs will be forced to operate more efficiently fire people and reduce services.

There are some who believe waste and inefficiency cost us up to 30% a year.

Finding 10% ought not be too big a burden would be impossible to do without reducing vital services.

Fixed for accuracy.

Unless you can identify specific programs, you can't cut or reduce them.

486 freetoken  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:49:44pm

Ok, here is the video:

Youtube Video

First Steele touches on the McChrystal thing, then goes on to say that Afg. is a war of Obama's choosing and not a war that of the US wanted to engage in.

What an idiot.

487 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:51:02pm

re: #483 Rightwingconspirator

I imagine you will see this later... But good for you. I have some extra white silk I could send if you would like to diffuse that light source for your photographs.

Sure... any tips on photography... I've been told I have a real good natural eye for photography, but my equipment is pretty much standard. You have my address, or send me an email and I will mail it to you.

488 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:53:45pm

re: #484 allegro

Nah, I'm just looking towards more sensible community planning that is already being looked at and tried, especially in Europe. Fortunately, I'm not alone in seeing this as a more sustainable future.

Being tried in Europe... I think that model has been in place for a long time... it's not change, it's the way it's been... here is a little short column I wrote once about a small town in Eastern France...


I was wondering how the populace in these small French hamlets acquired their department store type items. It’s easy. Instead of having a shopping mall every 2 miles, Sears, so to speak, comes to the town.

Once a week travelling merchants set up stalls in the early morning, up and down the ancient streets. They hawk everything from furniture to clothes, housewares to CD’s. No parking lots, no traffic. The sun for lighting, the breeze for air conditioning and the streets for storefronts. And by lunchtime they are packed up, moving out of town leaving nothing but the quiet peace of a small French village.

489 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:55:35pm

re: #485 Fozzie Bear

See my 453.

Do you believe the government is efficient?

490 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:56:36pm

re: #489 researchok

See my 453.

Do you believe the government is efficient?

No.
What, exactly, should be cut?

491 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:57:47pm

re: #488 Walter L. Newton

Being tried in Europe... I think that model has been in place for a long time... it's not change, it's the way it's been... here is a little short column I wrote once about a small town in Eastern France...

That is lovely. Actually, I was thinking more in urban areas where there are efforts being made to significantly reduce motor traffic with better community planning with local shopping, walking and bike paths.

492 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:58:50pm

re: #486 freetoken

Ok, here is the video:


[Video]First Steele touches on the McChrystal thing, then goes on to say that Afg. is a war of Obama's choosing and not a war that of the US wanted to engage in.

What an idiot.

Blah, blah, blah...whatever Obama does = bad, wrong, evil.

No matter that this war was started almost a decade ago. Yes, what an idiot.

493 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 1:59:51pm

re: #491 allegro

That is lovely. Actually, I was thinking more in urban areas where there are efforts being made to significantly reduce motor traffic with better community planning with local shopping, walking and bike paths.

Then we were not on the same page... I thought you were looking at the rural areas.

494 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:00:02pm

re: #490 Varek Raith

No.
What, exactly, should be cut?

See my 453 for starters.

Then there is the medicare debacle, singled out by Obama for fraud and waste.

More;
Obama orders federal contracting overhaul

Obama Administration Cracks Down on Government Waste

There's more if you need it.

495 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:00:12pm

re: #492 blueraven

No matter that this war was started almost a decade ago. Yes, what an idiot.

But... but... Americans didn't want to! Is he now saying the anti-war protesters were right?

496 Political Atheist  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:00:26pm

re: #487 Walter L. Newton

Sure. I use really inexpensive clamp lights, with cfl bulbs that are "full spectrum" or 5000k color temperature. We put silk over all the lights to soften them. Fake silk or nylon is fine as long as it is really white. Cuts the glare. You can put the silk right over your flash. It helps. We got this result with difficult silver items...

Its all cheap and "green" low power, low heat. Hot lights scare me, fire risk. Quality strobes are beyond my budget. Spent it all on the camera bodies.

I'll send you some of our spare silk. Wax paper works in a pinch, or even paper towels.

497 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:00:38pm

My son and daughter-in-law are here for the weekend, along with the Wee Toesies of Zion.

In their honor (The Wee Toesies only eats formula) I am making the following:

Home-baked Challah (recipe in LGF Cookbook I)
Gefilte Fish
California Roll Sushi
Philadelphia Cole Slaw (recipe in LGF Cookbook II)
Olive Pasta Salad (recipe in LGF Cookbook II)
Eggplant Salad
Hummus
Chicken Soup w/Matzah Balls (recipe in LGF Cookbook I)
Roast Chicken and Potatoes (recipe in LGF Cookbook I)
Chopped Liver & Eggs
Israeli Fried Chicken (recipe in LGF Cookbook II)
Flanken Cholent (my son is making)
Dessert: Fabulous Fruit Tart
Wines: Rashi Claret, Sion Creek Merlot, Gamla Chardonnay

498 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:00:51pm

re: #489 researchok

See my 453.

Do you believe the government is efficient?

I believe that question is meaningless.

Like businesses, government can be extremely efficient, extremely wasteful, and everything in between. Just the mere fact that government is doing something has zero bearing on efficiency. How it is administered has bearing.

499 pharmmajor  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:01:12pm

re: #482 wrenchwench

Can you specify a particular item he might be right on?

That we're heading for an economic collapse.

500 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:01:14pm

re: #497 Alouette

My son and daughter-in-law are here for the weekend, along with the Wee Toesies of Zion.

In their honor (The Wee Toesies only eats formula) I am making the following:

Home-baked Challah (recipe in LGF Cookbook I)
Gefilte Fish
California Roll Sushi
Philadelphia Cole Slaw (recipe in LGF Cookbook II)
Olive Pasta Salad (recipe in LGF Cookbook II)
Eggplant Salad
Hummus
Chicken Soup w/Matzah Balls (recipe in LGF Cookbook I)
Roast Chicken and Potatoes (recipe in LGF Cookbook I)
Chopped Liver & Eggs
Israeli Fried Chicken (recipe in LGF Cookbook II)
Flanken Cholent (my son is making)
Dessert: Fabulous Fruit Tart
Wines: Rashi Claret, Sion Creek Merlot, Gamla Chardonnay

Can, like, I come over???

501 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:02:18pm

re: #500 Varek Raith

Can, like, I come over???

Get the time.
I'll pick you up on the way over.

502 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:02:41pm

re: #489 researchok

See my 453.

Do you believe the government is efficient?

The idea of just cutting 10% arbitrarily from the government is a bit like saying to get the weight down on a stock car that you're preparing for the track, you just take a sawzall and lop off ten percent of its length. Or telling someone that they need to lose weight, so let's just remove 10% of their bone, fat, and muscle mass surgically. Arbitrary cuts will create more inefficiency, so it seems like you're less about efficicency and more about the Grover Norquist school of wounding government for ideological reasons.

If you want a government program to be more efficient, you analyze a government program, you bring in people who are intimately familiar with that government program, and you advocate more efficiency case by case. Inefficiency is baked into our entire SYSTEM of government.

The most inefficient thing of all is the very notion of states. Want to start creating more efficiency? How about we go from 50 states to like 8 big ones? :D How much government redundancy and infighting betwee states and pork projects and tax hurdles between states?

503 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:03:06pm

re: #495 allegro

But... but... Americans didn't want to! Is he now saying the anti-war protesters were right?

Maybe Steele's next job will be chairman of Code Pink!

504 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:03:21pm

re: #498 Fozzie Bear

I believe that question is meaningless.

Like businesses, government can be extremely efficient, extremely wasteful, and everything in between. Just the mere fact that government is doing something has zero bearing on efficiency. How it is administered has bearing.

OK, how about we tryt it this way: Do you believe government has an an overall, historical track record of efficiency?

I'm asking because of the context of the earlier discussion. I have no doubt that government can and does have efficiencies. The issue is the overall efficacy of government.

505 MJ  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:04:36pm

Looking for a place to finish up that degree program you dropped out of?

Consider coming here:

Glenn Beck U. marks online debut next week

Glenn Beck has conquered most media platforms going, from radio and book publishing to public speaking gigs. He even has an eponymous magazine. What new worlds are there for the conservative cable talker to annex?

Why, higher education, of course. This summer marks the debut of the online “Beck University,” a clearinghouse of instruction in U.S. history and politics meant to correct the alleged left-leaning of higher learning in America today. Beck has long portrayed himself as an expert decoder of progressive propaganda, exposing allegedly hidden truths and wide-spread liberal conspiracies to rewrite history. The online university will kick off classes on July 7. Beck's website has laid out the general curriculum:

School may be out for the summer, but for Glenn Beck class is just starting. This July, while others are relaxing poolside, head back to the classroom — from the comfort of your own home. That may sound like an oxymoron but Glenn’s new academic program is only available online. ... Beck University is a unique academic experience bringing together experts in the fields of religion, American history and economics. Through captivating lectures and interactive online discussions, these experts will explore the concepts of Faith, Hope and Charity and show you how they influence America’s past, her present and most importantly her future.

So how do you register Beck U. classes? You go to his website and sign up to become a member of “Insider Extreme,” essentially a GlennBeck.com VIP room, for $74.95 per year....

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

506 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:04:36pm

re: #503 blueraven

Maybe Steele's next job will be chairman of Code Pink!

if I had my way, I'd have fired his sorry ass last year

507 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:05:05pm

re: #502 WindUpBird

The idea of just cutting 10% arbitrarily from the government is a bit like saying to get the weight down on a stock car that you're preparing for the track, you just take a sawzall and lop off ten percent of its length. Or telling someone that they need to lose weight, so let's just remove 10% of their bone, fat, and muscle mass surgically. Arbitrary cuts will create more inefficiency, so it seems like you're less about efficicency and more about the Grover Norquist school of wounding government for ideological reasons.

If you want a government program to be more efficient, you analyze a government program, you bring in people who are intimately familiar with that government program, and you advocate more efficiency case by case. Inefficiency is baked into our entire SYSTEM of government.

The most inefficient thing of all is the very notion of states. Want to start creating more efficiency? How about we go from 50 states to like 8 big ones? :D How much government redundancy and infighting betwee states and pork projects and tax hurdles between states?

All good points- and all point to the institutionalized inefficiencies of government- which is probably why Mr Obama wants to clean house.

508 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:05:13pm

re: #494 researchok

See my 453 for starters.

Then there is the medicare debacle, singled out by Obama for fraud and waste.

More;
Obama orders federal contracting overhaul

Obama Administration Cracks Down on Government Waste

There's more if you need it.

What's better? an inefficicent program that costs too much but people overwhelmingly like it?

Or an efficient program that is limited in its effectiveness?

personally, I'd like to target specific instances of abject corruption before we worry about just 'efficicency".

509 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:06:14pm

re: #504 researchok

OK, how about we tryt it this way: Do you believe government has an an overall, historical track record of efficiency?

I'm asking because of the context of the earlier discussion. I have no doubt that government can and does have efficiencies. The issue is the overall efficacy of government.

This is just ideology, and ideology is bullshit to argue. No details, just bland ideological generalizations, bland bumper stickers.

510 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:06:21pm

re: #504 researchok

OK, how about we tryt it this way: Do you believe government has an an overall, historical track record of efficiency?

I'm asking because of the context of the earlier discussion. I have no doubt that government can and does have efficiencies. The issue is the overall efficacy of government.

It is sounding as though 87 of your 88 piano keys have broken strings, beating that one note over and over and...

511 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:06:22pm

re: #508 WindUpBird

What's better? an inefficicent program that costs too much but people overwhelmingly like it?

Or an efficient program that is limited in its effectiveness?

personally, I'd like to target specific instances of abject corruption before we worry about just 'efficicency".

Right. Let's leave things as they are, spend more, make government bigger and more inefficient.

512 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:07:07pm

re: #507 researchok

All good points- and all point to the institutionalized inefficiencies of government- which is probably why Mr Obama wants to clean house.

There will always be institutional inefficicencies in any organization made up of human beings. It will always happen, now and forever. it's why I'm more concerned about a program's effectiveness than in arbitrary mathematical demands.

513 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:07:30pm

re: #510 allegro

It is sounding as though 87 of your 88 piano keys have broken strings, beating that one note over and over and...

That's nice.

What is your argument or rebuttal? As noted, Mr Obama too, wants to remove waste and inefficiency. Is he off the mark as well?

514 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:07:32pm

re: #511 researchok

Right. Let's leave things as they are, spend more, make government bigger and more inefficient.

IdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeology
IdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeology
IdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeology
IdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeology
IdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeology
IdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeologyIdeology

boooring

515 lawhawk  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:08:19pm

Border insecurity. A US Consulate worker was killed by a Mexican gang because they were issuing visas to a rival gang.

A top drug gang enforcer says he ordered the killing of a U.S. consulate worker because she helped provide visas to a rival gang in the border city of Ciudad Juarez, federal police said Friday.

Jesus Ernesto Chavez, whose arrest was announced on Friday, leads a band of hit men for a street gang tied to the Juarez cartel, said Ramon Pequeno, the head of anti-narcotics for the Federal Police.

Pequeno said Chavez ordered the March 13 attack that killed U.S. consulate employee Lesley Enriquez and her husband as they drove through the violent city toward a border crossing to the U.S. Pequeno said Chavez told police that Enriquez was targeted because she helped provide visas to a rival gang.

The suggestion that drug gangs may have infiltrated the U.S. diplomatic mission runs counter to previous statements by U.S. Embassy officials that Enriquez was never in a position to provide visas and worked in a section that provides basic services to U.S. citizens in Mexico.

516 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:08:30pm

re: #506 albusteve

if I had my way, I'd have fired his sorry ass last year

Well he sure has given the republicans more than enough reasons to do just that. Wonder why they haven't yet? It doesn't make sense to me.

517 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:08:52pm

re: #504 researchok

OK, how about we tryt it this way: Do you believe government has an an overall, historical track record of efficiency?

I'm asking because of the context of the earlier discussion. I have no doubt that government can and does have efficiencies. The issue is the overall efficacy of government.

In some areas, yes, in others, no. Once again, asking that question is sort of like asking "do you think the business community is ethical?". It is so broad as to lack any meaning.

Budget cuts aren't vague things. The way to achieve efficiency is precision, not generalizations. You can't cut spending by 10% unless you can identify specific programs totaling that much, and articulate that cutting them would actually be a net benefit.

Keynes wasn't just some hack. He was to economics what newton was to physics. He created the general theory, and it worked very well for 50 years, until we, for some reason, completely stopped listening to reason because ideologues came into power.

We are in the situation we are in because we cut txes when we should have raised them, and increased spending when we should have decreased it. Now we are about to compound that error with yet another, if we cut spending during a recession.

"Government is bad" isn't an argument. It's a slogan.

518 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:08:55pm

re: #510 allegro

It is sounding as though 87 of your 88 piano keys have broken strings, beating that one note over and over and...

AmadeusAMADEUS! Amadeus! AmadeusAMADEUS! Amadeus!

Rock me Amadeus!

Youtube Video
519 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:09:01pm

Uruguay-Ghana tied 1-1 and going to penalty kicks...

520 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:10:28pm

re: #512 WindUpBird

There will always be institutional inefficicencies in any organization made up of human beings. It will always happen, now and forever. it's why I'm more concerned about a program's effectiveness than in arbitrary mathematical demands.

That I agree with 100%. My point is to make an effort to remove dead weight, waste and redundancy.

The status quo is unacceptable, especially in a down economy, new government programs on the way, etc (FYI, my own issue with health care is about the cost/delivery vehicle. not the idea. HC will work if government can deliver that HC efficiently).

521 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:10:30pm

re: #511 researchok

Right. Let's leave things as they are, spend more, make government bigger and more inefficient.

This illustrates a false dichotomy. Austrian economics is a fantasy, based on a priori logic with unfounded, untestable assumptions.

522 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:11:25pm

re: #516 blueraven

Well he sure has given the republicans more than enough reasons to do just that. Wonder why they haven't yet? It doesn't make sense to me.

Steele is a gutless, unprincipled man...I have no use for people like that...he's just a tool...I quit looking for common sense years ago, you might consider me a bit jaded...because of people like Steele

523 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:11:49pm

re: #513 researchok

What is your argument or rebuttal?

There is nothing to argue or rebut. This is the point. If you ask, "How can money be better spent within the VA Hospital system to serve more veterans for the same amount of money or less?" there would be something to discuss. This beating people around for an answer "Do you believe government is efficient?" is just pointless.

524 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:12:09pm

Economics makes my head hurt.
I'm out.
Later lizards.

525 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:12:16pm

re: #490 Varek Raith


Here's two suggestions.

Eliminate this:

[Link: www.irs.gov...]

and eliminate this:

[Link: www.irs.gov...]

That's hundreds of billions of dollars that they don't need to spend (or not collect in revenue).

526 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:13:14pm

re: #520 researchok

That I agree with 100%. My point is to make an effort to remove dead weight, waste and redundancy.

The status quo is unacceptable, especially in a down economy, new government programs on the way, etc (FYI, my own issue with health care is about the cost/delivery vehicle. not the idea. HC will work if government can deliver that HC efficiently).

But you have to look at the over all numbers... even if the government doesn't handle health care efficiently, there will at least be the chance that a few less people would die then if they couldn't get any kind of health care. That's certainly worth the effort in my book.

527 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:13:50pm

re: #517 Fozzie Bear

In some areas, yes, in others, no. Once again, asking that question is sort of like asking "do you think the business community is ethical?". It is so broad as to lack any meaning.

Budget cuts aren't vague things. The way to achieve efficiency is precision, not generalizations. You can't cut spending by 10% unless you can identify specific programs totaling that much, and articulate that cutting them would actually be a net benefit.

Keynes wasn't just some hack. He was to economics what newton was to physics. He created the general theory, and it worked very well for 50 years, until we, for some reason, completely stopped listening to reason because ideologues came into power.

We are in the situation we are in because we cut txes when we should have raised them, and increased spending when we should have decreased it. Now we are about to compound that error with yet another, if we cut spending during a recession.

"Government is bad" isn't an argument. It's a slogan.

When all is said and done, government has a decades long track record of efficiency- and that is what Obama wants to address.

That said, your points are fair, up to a point. You say I can't cut 10% from government programs. I'm saying there is at least 10% waste and inefficiency. Not the same thing. On that, I'm on th esame page as Obama.

528 Varek Raith  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:14:44pm

re: #525 reuven

Here's two suggestions.

Eliminate this:

[Link: www.irs.gov...]

and eliminate this:

[Link: www.irs.gov...]

That's hundreds of billions of dollars that they don't need to spend (or not collect in revenue).

Thanks for the specifics.
:)
I'm really out this time.

529 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:15:37pm

re: #526 Walter L. Newton

And it is worth repeating that, while the profit motive generates certain efficiencies, it also is, in itself, by necessity an inefficiency.

If a business generates a 10% profit (ROI), it is by definition 10% more expensive than it needs to be to do what it does. Government programs don't have that issue. They have other problems, admittedly.

530 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:16:00pm

re: #520 researchok

That I agree with 100%. My point is to make an effort to remove dead weight, waste and redundancy.

The status quo is unacceptable, especially in a down economy, new government programs on the way, etc (FYI, my own issue with health care is about the cost/delivery vehicle. not the idea. HC will work if government can deliver that HC efficiently).

Government is not delivering HC. Where does that come from?

531 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:16:09pm

re: #526 Walter L. Newton

But you have to look at the over all numbers... even if the government doesn't handle health care efficiently, there will at least be the chance that a few less people would die then if they couldn't get any kind of health care. That's certainly worth the effort in my book.

Of course you are right, but that is a whole other argument. The morality of universal health care has nothing to do with government that can deliver services effectively.

In fact there is a strong argument that an efficient government is a moral government.

532 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:16:19pm

re: #511 researchok

Right. Let's leave things as they are, spend more, make government bigger and more inefficient.

If you really gave a rat's ass about "efficiency" you'd be in favor of a single payer socialized health care system. Your free market idealism and attendant concept of what is and is not efficient exists in a isolated vacuum, and is completely contradicted by reality.

533 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:16:37pm

re: #523 allegro

There is nothing to argue or rebut. This is the point. If you ask, "How can money be better spent within the VA Hospital system to serve more veterans for the same amount of money or less?" there would be something to discuss. This beating people around for an answer "Do you believe government is efficient?" is just pointless.

I would dump both the Post Office and the Dept of Ed....dead weight money pits that don't get the job done....just a start

534 Cato the Elder  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:16:37pm

re: #505 MJ

Looking for a place to finish up that degree program you dropped out of?

Consider coming here:

Glenn Beck U. marks online debut next week

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

So how do you register Beck U. classes? You go to his website and sign up to become a member of “Insider Extreme", essentially a GlennBeck.com VIP room, for $74.95 per year...

I thought teabaggers hated insiders.

Guess I was wrong.

535 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:17:22pm

re: #530 blueraven

Government is not delivering HC. Where does that come from?

Thank you for pointing out my error. I stand corrected. I should have been more precise. Government will direct he delivery of health care.

536 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:17:46pm

re: #527 researchok

When all is said and done, government has a decades long track record of efficiency- and that is what Obama wants to address.

That said, your points are fair, up to a point. You say I can't cut 10% from government programs. I'm saying there is at least 10% waste and inefficiency. Not the same thing. On that, I'm on th esame page as Obama.

Yes, there are inefficiencies. Obama needs a small army of huge nerds to find them, identify them, and carefully craft legislation to fix them.

This is nerd work. This is the kind of thing the CBO used to do, before rampant paranoia and mistrust of government became what now passes for a political philosophy.

537 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:18:11pm

if we were truly, totally concerned about effiiceny in government spending, we never would have gone to the moon, just sayin

538 wrenchwench  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:18:11pm

re: #515 lawhawk

Border insecurity. A US Consulate worker was killed by a Mexican gang because they were issuing visas to a rival gang.

I can't take the word of Mexican officials over American ones in this case. Her job performance has already been looked into, as has her husband's, which was the first motive floated. He works in a US prison and the Mexicans claimed he mistreated someone who was locked up. This also reduces their credibility for me:

Mexican police say Chavez also confessed to participating in the Jan. 31 killing of 15 youths at a party that was mistaken as a gathering of drug-gang rivals

They're going to get him to confess to whatever they need him to confess to, I think.

539 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:18:42pm

re: #532 goddamnedfrank

If you really gave a rat's ass about "efficiency" you'd be in favor of a single payer socialized health care system. Your free market idealism and attendant concept of what is and is not efficient exists in a isolated vacuum, and is completely contradicted by reality.

This forever

540 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:18:46pm

re: #532 goddamnedfrank

If you really gave a rat's ass about "efficiency" you'd be in favor of a single payer socialized health care system. Your free market idealism and attendant concept of what is and is not efficient exists in a isolated vacuum, and is completely contradicted by reality.

No. Single payer systems are the most inefficient. See the UK and Canada as examples.

That's why I like Obama's plan- it is not single payer centered.

541 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:18:57pm

re: #537 WindUpBird

if we were truly, totally concerned about effiiceny in government spending, we never would have gone to the moon, just sayin

or even crossed the damned Mississippi...what a waste

542 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:19:36pm

re: #533 albusteve

I would dump both the Post Office and the Dept of Ed...dead weight money pits that don't get the job done...just a start

Then it is a damn good thing you aren't in charge. You do realize that FedEx subcontracts to the postal service for rural deliveries, don't you? Say goodbye to the mail delivery system, of any kind, outside metropolitan areas.

543 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:19:47pm

re: #536 Fozzie Bear

Yes, there are inefficiencies. Obama needs a small army of huge nerds to find them, identify them, and carefully craft legislation to fix them.

This is nerd work. This is the kind of thing the CBO used to do, before rampant paranoia and mistrust of government became what now passes for a political philosophy.

3 point swish.

544 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:20:10pm

Rule#16: This is no crying in soccer

545 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:20:52pm

re: #542 Fozzie Bear

Then it is a damn good thing you aren't in charge. You do realize that FedEx subcontracts to the postal service for rural deliveries, don't you? Say goodbye to the mail delivery system, of any kind, outside metropolitan areas.

That doesn't make the USPS efficient or waste free.

546 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:21:03pm

re: #542 Fozzie Bear

Then it is a damn good thing you aren't in charge. You do realize that FedEx subcontracts to the postal service for rural deliveries, don't you? Say goodbye to the mail delivery system, of any kind, outside metropolitan areas.

bullshit...if there is a service with the potential to make a buck, somebody will step up

547 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:21:10pm

re: #540 researchok

No. Single payer systems are the most inefficient. See the UK and Canada as examples.

That's why I like Obama's plan- it is not single payer centered.

Um... they (single payer systems) are more efficient in terms of overall cost per service. No reputable economist will dispute this. The problems that exist aren't cost efficiency problems.

548 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:21:23pm

re: #540 researchok

No. Single payer systems are the most inefficient. See the UK and Canada as examples.

That's why I like Obama's plan- it is not single payer centered.

Thank you, I don't think you realized what you just said, but thank you anyway. You really don't care about efficiency.

549 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:21:24pm

re: #544 HoosierHoops

Rule#16: This There is no crying in soccer

550 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:22:40pm

re: #546 albusteve

bullshit...if there is a service with the potential to make a buck, somebody will step up

What about the areas of the country where a buck cannot be made?

551 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:22:56pm

re: #546 albusteve

bullshit...if there is a service with the potential to make a buck, somebody will step up

It isn't a service with the potential to make a buck. It's a money loser. That's why gov't does it.

The "invisible hand" will only fix those problems which can be profitably fixed. If you completely privatize mail delivery, it will get alot more expensive, very quickly.

552 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:23:28pm

re: #531 researchok

Of course you are right, but that is a whole other argument. The morality of universal health care has nothing to do with government that can deliver services effectively.

In fact there is a strong argument that an efficient government is a moral government.

And an efficient government is not, and will never be, the United States of America. We're never going to be efficient the way you want, because we're not a monoculture, because we're too big a land mass, there's too many states, too many different ideas on what should be done with our resources and taxes, too many ways to exploit the system.

If you want a really efficient government, move to northern Europe. Move somewhere where people tend to agree on what they want to do with their tax dollars. You won't because you actually don't care about efficency, you care about conservative ideology and in limiting spending.

Limiting spending is not efficiency. It's just limiting spending.

You're just repeating the term efficiency over and over again like a human bumper sticker, as if repetition will change the nature of the word. You're just talking about cutting spending. Not the same thing at all.

553 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:23:35pm

re: #550 webevintage

What about the areas of the country where a buck cannot be made?

pay more...organize your own system, figure it out

554 Nimed  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:23:45pm

The markets vs. government dillema is more often than not deeply misleading. Whenever it's possible to find or set up a market solution to a given problem (i.e., in which private incentives and the public well-being are aligned), I'm all for that. But there is no such solution for many of our problems. It's pointless to bitch about "big government" when government is the only solution that exists.

The problem is that the US sucks at setting up efficient bureaucracies. I don't know why this is so, but it's a fact. And AFAIK there is not well developed "science of institutions" that gives us a formula to create slim and efficient bureaucracies. We're more or less reduced to trial and error.

555 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:24:22pm

re: #548 goddamnedfrank

Thank you, I don't think you realized what you just said, but thank you anyway. You really don't care about efficiency.

Of course he doesn't!

This ideology is as mindless and transparent as a pane of glass.

556 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:24:49pm

re: #554 Nimed

The markets vs. government dillema is more often than not deeply misleading. Whenever it's possible to find or set up a market solution to a given problem (i.e., in which private incentives and the public well-being are aligned), I'm all for that. But there is no such solution for many of our problems. It's pointless to bitch about "big government" when government is the only solution that exists.

The problem is that the US sucks at setting up efficient bureaucracies. I don't know why this is so, but it's a fact. And AFAIK there is not well developed "science of institutions" that gives us a formula to create slim and efficient bureaucracies. We're more or less reduced to trial and error.

RON PAUL!!1111

557 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:24:52pm

re: #553 albusteve

pay more...organize your own system, figure it out

If you want to pay 20 bucks to deliver a letter, you are welcome to pay a courier. The incredible efficiency of scale, in the case of postal services, is one of the strongest arguments you can possibly make for socialist programs, Steve.

558 webevintage  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:25:13pm

re: #553 albusteve

pay more...organize your own system, figure it out

You cannot be serious.

559 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:25:14pm

re: #541 albusteve

or even crossed the damned Mississippi...what a waste

Sometimes it's necessary to cross the streams.

560 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:25:29pm

re: #311 filetandrelease

I agree, but we were talking efficiency. And the government does not always do good work, IE, the coast guard delaying the A-whale skimmer for 70 days and counting from getting into the gulf.

The government has this rule: any water discharged from a boat must have less than 1/100th of 1 percent oil in it. (Or some such fraction.) The government is standing by its rule. This means that any machine that sucks in oily water, say 2% oil, and strips out 90% of the oil and discharges the cleaned water, (now down to 2/10th of 1 percent oil), and then sucks up more of the oily water until it's got a hold full of oil, is ILLEGAL.

The government is standing there with its arms crossed, forbidding a useful and effective means of getting the oil out of the water.

The insanity of it is so clear that it's hard to believe that they're that stupid. Which leaves malice.

561 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:25:33pm

re: #557 Fozzie Bear

If you want to pay 20 bucks to deliver a letter, you are welcome to pay a courier. The incredible efficiency of scale, in the case of postal services, is one of the strongest arguments you can possibly make for socialist programs, Steve.

I've sent mail from a lot of different countries. The US does it best.

I'll put up our mail system against Canada's anyday.

562 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:25:57pm

re: #554 Nimed

The markets vs. government dillema is more often than not deeply misleading. Whenever it's possible to find or set up a market solution to a given problem (i.e., in which private incentives and the public well-being are aligned), I'm all for that. But there is no such solution for many of our problems. It's pointless to bitch about "big government" when government is the only solution that exists.

The problem is that the US sucks at setting up efficient bureaucracies. I don't know why this is so, but it's a fact. And AFAIK there is not well developed "science of institutions" that gives us a formula to create slim and efficient bureaucracies. We're more or less reduced to trial and error.

It's called the firm of Kleptocrats, Plutocrats and Big Business. Get them all out of Washington and you'll see things starting to work much more efficiently.

563 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:26:11pm

re: #542 Fozzie Bear

Then it is a damn good thing you aren't in charge. You do realize that FedEx subcontracts to the postal service for rural deliveries, don't you? Say goodbye to the mail delivery system, of any kind, outside metropolitan areas.

There's just no discussing facts with these guys :D

564 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:26:14pm

re: #547 Fozzie Bear

Um... they (single payer systems) are more efficient in terms of overall cost per service. No reputable economist will dispute this. The problems that exist aren't cost efficiency problems.

Health care is not about overall cost per service. It is about quality of service.

Waits for surgery, waits to see a speacialist and long ER waits are a fact of life. Just recently, it was discovered that hospitals in the UK were keeping patients in ambulances so as to keep ER wait time down. Of course, that took ambulances out of circulation for a time. Thus, more money was allocated for ambulances.

My father is an MD in the UK. Trust me on this, it is no paradise. Stands and quality of care have gone down.

In Canada, the Supreme Court finally allowed patients to see and pay for MDs on their own. Before that, it was illegal. Yes, illegal.

There is a reason so many Canadians cross the border for treatment.

565 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:27:02pm

re: #540 researchok

No. Single payer systems are the most inefficient. See the UK and Canada as examples.

That's why I like Obama's plan- it is not single payer centered.

Again, if Canada is less efficient, why do they spend 5.9% less of their GDP on health care than we do? With our efficient private health care system and greater economy of scale (larger, more concentrated population,) we should be more efficient than they are, but we're not.

566 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:27:17pm

re: #554 Nimed

The markets vs. government dillema is more often than not deeply misleading. Whenever it's possible to find or set up a market solution to a given problem (i.e., in which private incentives and the public well-being are aligned), I'm all for that. But there is no such solution for many of our problems. It's pointless to bitch about "big government" when government is the only solution that exists.

The problem is that the US sucks at setting up efficient bureaucracies. I don't know why this is so, but it's a fact. And AFAIK there is not well developed "science of institutions" that gives us a formula to create slim and efficient bureaucracies. We're more or less reduced to trial and error.

true and in most cases, world class services or whatever...it's the ball and chain of paying way too much for what you get in so many other cases, which I think efficiency is simply a euphemism...the govt can do some things better than others

567 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:27:24pm

re: #562 Walter L. Newton

It's called the firm of Kleptocrats, Plutocrats and Big Business. Get them all out of Washington and you'll see things starting to work much more efficiently.

This is what I like to call "human behavior". Get those guys out of washington, and there's no more government. Wheee Somalia!!111

568 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:27:34pm

re: #565 goddamnedfrank

Again, if Canada is less efficient, why do they spend 5.9% less of their GDP on health care than we do? With our efficient private health care system and greater economy of scale (larger, more concentrated population,) we should be more efficient than they are, but we're not.

Oh snap :D

569 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:27:38pm

re: #565 goddamnedfrank

Again, if Canada is less efficient, why do they spend 5.9% less of their GDP on health care than we do? With our efficient private health care system and greater economy of scale (larger, more concentrated population,) we should be more efficient than they are, but we're not.

They spend less and get less.

570 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:29:10pm

re: #558 webevintage

You cannot be serious.

then subsidize the long range stuff...happy now?

571 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:29:18pm

re: #567 WindUpBird

This is what I like to call "human behavior". Get those guys out of washington, and there's no more government. Wheee Somalia!!111

Might work.

572 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:30:33pm

re: #559 b_sharp

Sometimes it's necessary to cross the streams.

oh no!...MR STAYPUFF!

573 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:31:25pm

re: #564 researchok

Health care is not about overall cost per service. It is about quality of service.

Waits for surgery, waits to see a speacialist and long ER waits are a fact of life. Just recently, it was discovered that hospitals in the UK were keeping patients in ambulances so as to keep ER wait time down. Of course, that took ambulances out of circulation for a time. Thus, more money was allocated for ambulances.

My father is an MD in the UK. Trust me on this, it is no paradise. Stands and quality of care have gone down.

In Canada, the Supreme Court finally allowed patients to see and pay for MDs on their own. Before that, it was illegal. Yes, illegal.

There is a reason so many Canadians cross the border for treatment.

Which treatment do they cross the border for?

We have an abundance of extremely highly paid medical specialists here and a shortage of general practicioners. Of course we'll have people crossing the border.

This is no more proof of our system working than a Ferrari Enzo is Italy's proof that they can make an affordable car. I crossed the border to Italy to buy a Superleggera! That means Italy makes better cheap cars!

Ask a Canadian if they cross the border for their general practicioner. Enough said.


(man, it's like all the idiot GOP talking points that were smacked down over and over again by Iceweasel and I during the HRC debate are being mindlessly brought up again. Did Limbaugh do a thing on health care today or something?)

574 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:32:27pm

re: #554 Nimed

The markets vs. government dillema is more often than not deeply misleading. Whenever it's possible to find or set up a market solution to a given problem (i.e., in which private incentives and the public well-being are aligned), I'm all for that. But there is no such solution for many of our problems. It's pointless to bitch about "big government" when government is the only solution that exists.

The problem is that the US sucks at setting up efficient bureaucracies. I don't know why this is so, but it's a fact. And AFAIK there is not well developed "science of institutions" that gives us a formula to create slim and efficient bureaucracies. We're more or less reduced to trial and error.

To expand on your point:

This is precisely because we don't do bureaucracies anymore. We subcontract services to private industry, which is doubly inefficient. This paradigm shift in government invites waste, fraud, and abuse.

If you want to make a government program less efficient, the first thing you do is inject the profit motive. Do you think any company would contract to do government work if they couldn't make some money doing it? And more to the point, I find it astounding that this point isn't obvious. Profit is waste. It's just that in private industry, it is acceptable waste because it is the way in which growth happens. It is the engine for competition, and so economists consider it a net gain, in the private sector. In government, the same paradigm is insanity.

575 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:33:28pm

On Canada's Health Care System;

Health reform in Quebec
Date Published: June 1, 2010

The unsustainable growth of government health care spending
Date Published: May 3, 2010

Health care at a crossroads
Date Published: February 1, 2010

How much do we really pay?
Date Published: February 1, 2010

How to beat Africa's health crisis
Date Published: February 1, 2010

Leaving Canada for medical care
Date Published: February 1, 2010

Spend more, wait less?
Date Published: February 1, 2010

Unnatural regulation
Date Published: February 1, 2010

576 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:34:02pm

re: #570 albusteve

then subsidize the long range stuff...happy now?

Subsidizing is exactly the wrong approach. The government needs to either perform a service directly, or get out of the business. Where the profit motive and the public interest align, yes, the private sector is the best way.

There are alot of vital functions of government that simply aren't profitable. That is the proper realm of government to step in.

577 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:34:49pm

re: #569 researchok

They spend less and get less.

And yet they get more per dollar spent. You want to talk about efficiency? There it is, right there.

578 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:36:12pm

re: #564 researchok

Health care is not about overall cost per service. It is about quality of service.

Waits for surgery, waits to see a speacialist and long ER waits are a fact of life. Just recently, it was discovered that hospitals in the UK were keeping patients in ambulances so as to keep ER wait time down. Of course, that took ambulances out of circulation for a time. Thus, more money was allocated for ambulances.

My father is an MD in the UK. Trust me on this, it is no paradise. Stands and quality of care have gone down.

In Canada, the Supreme Court finally allowed patients to see and pay for MDs on their own. Before that, it was illegal. Yes, illegal.

There is a reason so many Canadians cross the border for treatment.

Just how many cross? And how many Americans travel the other direction?

Remember that Canada has everyone in the country covered for health care. In the normal course of events, nobody goes bankrupt because they need heart surgery. The wait times vary from a few minutes for emergency care to several months for something like knee replacement. Part of the reason we have any wait times at all is the shortage of doctors, nurses and beds. Part of the reason is the tendency of people to run to the doctor every time they have a boo boo.

579 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:37:44pm

re: #569 researchok

They spend less and get less.

It doesn't have to be true, you just have to be willing to say it:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-U.S. Canada
Life Expectancy (Male)-=-=-=-=-=-=74.8 77.4
Life Expectancy (Female)-=-=-=-=-= 80.1 82.4
Infant Mortality/1000 live births=-=-=6.8 5.3
Obesity Rate (Male)-=-=-=-=-=--=-31.1 17.0
Obesity Rate (Female) -=-=-=-=-=-=32.2 19.0
HC spending as % of GDP (2005)-=-=16.0% 10.4%

I'm trying to figure out if you really believe what you're saying, or if you just throw deliberate lies out to see what will stick?

580 Nimed  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:38:27pm

Hmm, check this out. A Bill Kristol's open letter to Michael Steele:

Dear Michael,

You are, I know, a patriot. So I ask you to consider, over this July 4 weekend, doing an act of service for the country you love: Resign as chairman of the Republican party.

Your tenure has of course been marked by gaffes and embarrassments, but I for one have never paid much attention to them, and have never thought they would matter much to the success of the causes and principles we share. But now you have said, about the war in Afghanistan, speaking as RNC chairman at an RNC event, "Keep in mind again, federal candidates, this was a war of Obama's choosing. This was not something that the United States had actively prosecuted or wanted to engage in." And, "if [Obama] is such a student of history, has he not understood that you know that's the one thing you don't do, is engage in a land war in Afghanistan?"

Needless to say, the war in Afghanistan was not "a war of Obama’s choosing." It has been prosecuted by the United States under Presidents Bush and Obama. Republicans have consistently supported the effort. Indeed, as the DNC Communications Director (of all people) has said, your statement "puts [you] at odds with about 100 percent of the Republican Party."

And not on a trivial matter. At a time when Gen. Petraeus has just taken over command, when Republicans in Congress are pushing for a clean war funding resolution, when Republicans around the country are doing their best to rally their fellow citizens behind the mission, your comment is more than an embarrassment. It’s an affront, both to the honor of the Republican party and to the commitment of the soldiers fighting to accomplish the mission they’ve been asked to take on by our elected leaders.

Happened sooner than I thought.

581 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:38:52pm

re: #569 researchok

They spend less and get less.

We spend less and get more. We cover everybody, for just about everything except none-critical reconstruction (plastic) surgery.

There is no mass exodus of Canadians to the US.

582 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:39:19pm

Economics is yet another well-understood discipline which has been muddied by ideology. There is a general theory of economics, and it is very well founded. And we ignore it at our peril. It's one of many victims of the assault on reason in this country.

Evolution, climate science, and economics.

583 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:40:00pm

re: #573 WindUpBird

Which treatment do they cross the border for?

We have an abundance of extremely highly paid medical specialists here and a shortage of general practicioners. Of course we'll have people crossing the border.

This is no more proof of our system working than a Ferrari Enzo is Italy's proof that they can make an affordable car. I crossed the border to Italy to buy a Superleggera! That means Italy makes better cheap cars!

Ask a Canadian if they cross the border for their general practicioner. Enough said.

(man, it's like all the idiot GOP talking points that were smacked down over and over again by Iceweasel and I during the HRC debate are being mindlessly brought up again. Did Limbaugh do a thing on health care today or something?)

So what you are saying is when all is said and done, Canadians have an inferior health care system.

See this too. YOUR VIEW: How has Canada's doctor shortage affected your life?

4.1 million Canadians without a doctor
New immigrants, poor more likely to not have physician, survey shows

One in 5 Canadians can't find a doctor: survey

By the way, save the personal attacks.

584 Nimed  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:40:28pm

re: #580 Nimed

Forgot the link.
[Link: weeklystandard.com...]

585 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:40:55pm

re: #583 researchok

Read #579, then define "inferior" in a way that makes any sense, in the light of that hard data.

586 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:42:50pm

re: #583 researchok

So what you are saying is when all is said and done, Canadians have an inferior health care system.

So inferior that on average they live longer lives, have lower infant mortality and are in better shape.

587 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:43:59pm

re: #581 b_sharp

We spend less and get more. We cover everybody, for just about everything except none-critical reconstruction (plastic) surgery.

There is no mass exodus of Canadians to the US.

Right. That's why Canadians are crossing the border for medical care in increasing numbers- and that's after teh Supreme Court ruled against the 'North Korean' model.

Didn't the Premier of a province decide health care was better in the US than Canada and crossed the border? As I recall, the NDP (?) leader opted for private care as opposed to Ontario's' health services.

Please advise if I'm incorrect.

588 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:44:09pm

re: #580 Nimed

Hmm, check this out. A Bill Kristol's open letter to Michael Steele:

Happened sooner than I thought.

OMG! I agree with Bill Krystol? I think I am going to be a little sick.

589 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:44:21pm

re: #582 Fozzie Bear

Economics is yet another well-understood discipline which has been muddied by ideology. There is a general theory of economics, and it is very well founded. And we ignore it at our peril. It's one of many victims of the assault on reason in this country.

Evolution, climate science, and economics.

Laffer curve, anyone?

590 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:44:39pm

re: #586 goddamnedfrank

So inferior that on average they live longer lives, have lower infant mortality and are in better shape.

Those things are not necessarily tied to health care.

591 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:45:43pm

re: #579 goddamnedfrank

It doesn't have to be true, you just have to be willing to say it:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-U.S. Canada
Life Expectancy (Male)-=-=-=-=-=-=74.8 77.4
Life Expectancy (Female)-=-=-=-=-= 80.1 82.4
Infant Mortality/1000 live births=-=-=6.8 5.3
Obesity Rate (Male)-=-=-=-=-=--=-31.1 17.0
Obesity Rate (Female) -=-=-=-=-=-=32.2 19.0
HC spending as % of GDP (2005)-=-=16.0% 10.4%

I'm trying to figure out if you really believe what you're saying, or if you just throw deliberate lies out to see what will stick?

Those things may have to do with lifestyle, environment, etc. The numbers are not necessarily related to health care.

592 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:46:23pm

re: #586 goddamnedfrank

So inferior that on average they live longer lives, have lower infant mortality and are in better shape.

re: #591 researchok

Those things may have to do with lifestyle, environment, etc. The numbers are not necessarily related to health care.

LIES!

593 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:46:25pm

re: #590 researchok

Those things are not necessarily tied to health care.

Infant mortality isn't tied to quality health care? Now I know you're being dishonest.

594 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:47:38pm

re: #593 goddamnedfrank

Now I know you're being dishonest.

Upding for your generosity.

595 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:47:40pm

re: #593 goddamnedfrank

Infant mortality isn't tied to quality health care? Now I know you're being dishonest.

Not at all!

Prenatal care, diet, environment, etc all impact those numbers.

596 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:48:09pm

re: #591 researchok

Those things may have to do with lifestyle, environment, etc. The numbers are not necessarily related to health care.

Obesity rates certainly have more to do with lifestyle than with health care.

Not sure about the others.

597 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:48:33pm

re: #579 goddamnedfrank

It doesn't have to be true, you just have to be willing to say it:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-U.S. Canada
Life Expectancy (Male)-=-=-=-=-=-=74.8 77.4
Life Expectancy (Female)-=-=-=-=-= 80.1 82.4
Infant Mortality/1000 live births=-=-=6.8 5.3
Obesity Rate (Male)-=-=-=-=-=--=-31.1 17.0
Obesity Rate (Female) -=-=-=-=-=-=32.2 19.0
HC spending as % of GDP (2005)-=-=16.0% 10.4%

I'm trying to figure out if you really believe what you're saying, or if you just throw deliberate lies out to see what will stick?

Are these adjusted for socioeconomic and genetic factors?

598 Nimed  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:48:39pm

re: #588 blueraven

OMG! I agree with Bill Krystol? I think I am going to be a little sick.

I confess that, regarding Afghanistan, I'm sort of dithering myself.

Youtube Video
599 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:49:08pm

re: #588 blueraven

OMG! I agree with Bill Krystol? I think I am going to be a little sick.

911..What is your emergency?
I just found him laying here!
Who sir..Who did you..
Raven! Blue Raven!
Sir...Sir..Calm down...
He's Blue!
Sir do you know CPR?
He's really blue..
Sir..Do you know CPR?
No..hold on..I think he is supposed to be blue..
Sir?
He's moving..I think he is going to be OK
Sir?
Click
Sir?

600 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:49:21pm

re: #596 reine.de.tout

Obesity rates certainly have more to do with lifestyle than with health care.

Not sure about the others.

Air pollution, water quality, food quality, etc all impact health.

601 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:50:21pm

re: #600 researchok

Air pollution, water quality, food quality, etc all impact health.

So the conclusion is that Canada is just a better country in which to live.

602 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:50:33pm

re: #597 EmmmieG

Are these adjusted for socioeconomic and genetic factors?

You know, that's a really good question. Interesting to see how different countries correlate their data.

603 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:50:35pm

re: #600 researchok

Air pollution, water quality, food quality, etc all impact health.

Frutis & veggies cost more than junk food per calorie.

604 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:50:45pm

re: #583 researchok

So what you are saying is when all is said and done, Canadians have an inferior health care system.

See this too. YOUR VIEW: How has Canada's doctor shortage affected your life?

4.1 million Canadians without a doctor
New immigrants, poor more likely to not have physician, survey shows

One in 5 Canadians can't find a doctor: survey

By the way, save the personal attacks.

The reason we have too few doctors is because our doctors are poached by the US, and we haven't caught up through our own poaching of other countries. The number of doctors always lags behind the increase in population, whether it is a social program or free-market program, demand almost always precedes supply.

There are also quite a few clinics where immigrants and the poor can go to get health care. While it is nice to have your own doctor to visit, it isn't necessary for health.

605 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:51:37pm

re: #601 allegro

So the conclusion is that Canada is just a better country in which to live.

Yes, that is possible, certainly from a health standpoint. I would say there is a good case to be made for that.

606 allegro  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:52:47pm

re: #605 researchok

Yes, that is possible, certainly from a health standpoint. I would say there is a good case to be made for that.

Perhaps one reason is because they have single payer guaranteed health care for all?

607 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:54:04pm

re: #604 b_sharp

The reason we have too few doctors is because our doctors are poached by the US, and we haven't caught up through our own poaching of other countries. The number of doctors always lags behind the increase in population, whether it is a social program or free-market program, demand almost always precedes supply.

There are also quite a few clinics where immigrants and the poor can go to get health care. While it is nice to have your own doctor to visit, it isn't necessary for health.

I shall take you at your word.

That said, it becomes clear there are serious issues that the Canadian health care system must address.

To be fair, there is no system that is perfect, Each society has it's own baggage, to be sure.

608 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:54:08pm

re: #602 researchok

You know, that's a really good question. Interesting to see how different countries correlate their data.

At least one study was done in which two populations, in one America and one in Canada which were known to be similar in genetics and socioeconomics were studied.

You're more likley to die of cancer in Canada, if you contract it.

609 Nimed  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:54:39pm

re: #596 reine.de.tout

Obesity rates certainly have more to do with lifestyle than with health care.

Not sure about the others.

Yeah, but we also smoke less in average than other countries.

I'm not getting involved in another HC discussion (still overdosed, after all these months), but it usually helps to at least agree about what "better" means in health care -- which are the are the relevant goals and statistics. As liberals and conservatives often disagree about the basic stuff, most discussions are pointless.

610 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:54:39pm

re: #606 allegro

Perhaps one reason is because they have single payer guaranteed health care for all?

it certainly isn't for their pro football

611 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:56:57pm

re: #606 allegro

Perhaps one reason is because they have single payer guaranteed health care for all?

No, single payer is most inefficient. See the problems mentioned above. I do suspect now that Canada is off the 'North Korean' model things will improve as patients are allowed more medical freedoms.

I do believe that environmental issues and to some degree cultural issues give Canada a lead in overall health.

612 Basho  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 2:57:13pm

re: #593 goddamnedfrank

Infant mortality isn't tied to quality health care? Now I know you're being dishonest.

Didn't germ theory come about from investigating childbirth related deaths?

613 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:00:06pm

re: #608 EmmmieG

At least one study was done in which two populations, in one America and one in Canada which were known to be similar in genetics and socioeconomics were studied.

You're more likley to die of cancer in Canada, if you contract it.

You touched a nerve. I am aware of the death of an individual for no other reason than she was seen and treated too late.

Also, a physician here at Duke (formerly Ontario (?) Hospital for Sick Children) noted that treatment protocols can be different in Canada because they take into account the reality that certain conditions are not detected as early as they are here.

614 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:00:49pm

re: #610 albusteve

it certainly isn't for their pro football

LOLOL

615 Nimed  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:01:57pm

Anyway, from the top of my head, a short list of conservatives that would like us to get out of Afghanistan:

- the Pauls
- Michael Steele
- Ann Coulter
- George Will

A pretty heterogeneous bunch.

616 gamark  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:01:58pm

re: #593 goddamnedfrank

Infant mortality isn't tied to quality health care? Now I know you're being dishonest.

Well, as it turns out, U.S. infant mortality is lower for low-birthweight (highest risk) babies than Canadian infant mortality for low birthweight babies. The reason Canada fared better in that survey is that the US has more low birthweight babies than Canada. That may be because US healthcare is better at bringing at-risk fetuses to full term than Canada.

617 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:03:22pm

re: #610 albusteve

it certainly isn't for their pro football

Their teams have great names, though.

618 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:04:58pm

re: #615 Nimed

Anyway, from the top of my head, a short list of conservatives that would like us to get out of Afghanistan:

- the Pauls
- Michael Steele
- Ann Coulter
- George Will

A pretty heterogeneous bunch.

I'm on the fence, leaning toward withdrawal
I don't like it a bit....for all practical purposes we are getting hammered with little to show for it....I don't care what anybody else thinks, especially those on your list

619 blueraven  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:05:15pm

re: #613 researchok

You touched a nerve. I am aware of the death of an individual for no other reason than she was seen and treated too late.

Also, a physician here at Duke (formerly Ontario (?) Hospital for Sick Children) noted that treatment protocols can be different in Canada because they take into account the reality that certain conditions are not detected as early as they are here.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, especially about the death of someone you know, or at least are aware of.

But here in the U.S., it depends on your income level or job status if certain conditions are detected earlier. At least that is the way it has been for years. If you cant afford to go to the doctor, you don't get diagnosed until you end up in the ER.

620 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:07:00pm

re: #587 researchok

Right. That's why Canadians are crossing the border for medical care in increasing numbers- and that's after teh Supreme Court ruled against the 'North Korean' model.

Didn't the Premier of a province decide health care was better in the US than Canada and crossed the border? As I recall, the NDP (?) leader opted for private care as opposed to Ontario's' health services.

Please advise if I'm incorrect.

Most of those crossing the border are doing so to get things like hips and knees replaced. There is indeed a wait list that is too long for that kind of surgery. However, if you have cancer, or heart problems, or any other severe problem the wait is much shorter. Unfortunately, when something does go wrong, the case is publicized far and wide.

How many people are uncovered in the US? How many can't afford to get work done so just suffer with it? How many go bankrupt?

Premier Williams is a Progressive Conservative, not NDP. Although he explains it by saying it was a highly specialized operation and he wanted a doctor that does that particular operation many times a day, most people do not understand why he went to the States considering he could have gotten the operation in Ontario.

My question to you is, how would changing our system to mirror the US system make it better? Would those poor people have their own doctors, or would they be forced to run to the ER?

Why in the world would you compare our system to North Korea? That is unfounded and quite insulting.

621 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:07:16pm

re: #616 gamark

Well, as it turns out, U.S. infant mortality is lower for low-birthweight (highest risk) babies than Canadian infant mortality for low birthweight babies. The reason Canada fared better in that survey is that the US has more low birthweight babies than Canada. That may be because US healthcare is better at bringing at-risk fetuses to full term than Canada.


Emmie 597 Brought up a great point. It would be interesting to see how the numbers and data in different countries are counted and data is assessed and interpreted.

622 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:07:19pm

Programming Notes
Nascar at Daytona is on tonight..
I caught the new Science Channel Show with Morgan Freeman and I give it 5 stars..Excellent science and Morgan rocks. Check you local listings..I flew on a plane with him once..
/ I did want him to just say once...' Andy was my friend '
The Dutch beat the #1 team in the world today...
And i have hot tub time machine in the queue

623 Nimed  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:07:56pm

re: #618 albusteve

I'm on the fence, leaning toward withdrawal. I don't like it a bit...for all practical purposes we are getting hammered with little to show for it...I don't care what anybody else thinks, especially those on your list

There. Now I completely agree with your post.

624 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:08:07pm

re: #579 goddamnedfrank

It doesn't have to be true, you just have to be willing to say it:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-U.S. Canada
Life Expectancy (Male)-=-=-=-=-=-=74.8 77.4
Life Expectancy (Female)-=-=-=-=-= 80.1 82.4
Infant Mortality/1000 live births=-=-=6.8 5.3
Obesity Rate (Male)-=-=-=-=-=--=-31.1 17.0
Obesity Rate (Female) -=-=-=-=-=-=32.2 19.0
HC spending as % of GDP (2005)-=-=16.0% 10.4%

I'm trying to figure out if you really believe what you're saying, or if you just throw deliberate lies out to see what will stick?

Is it because of their health care system that Canadians are slimmer? Is it because our own doctors do not advise us on what a healthy weight is?

Life expectancy depends on many things outside the health care system. Bad eating habits, drinking habits, or driving habits play a part. And what about people who die in gunfights? They had a bad doctor?

I'm not arguing that Canada has a lousy health care system. But these sorts of statistics only go to prove that Canadians are, for some reason, healthier than Yanquis. The difference could well lie in our taste for fast women, fast cars, fast food, and hard likker, rather than being a mirror of our different health care systems.

Perhaps somebody has done a study comparing Seattle to Vancouver. That might be more instructive.

625 windsagio  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:09:28pm

re: #624 lostlakehiker


Perhaps somebody has done a study comparing Seattle to Vancouver. That might be more instructive.

Quoted 'cuz its so true.

626 albusteve  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:11:25pm

re: #625 windsagio

Quoted 'cuz its so true.

ah, yeah...we can read, it was one post ago....
quoted for truth

627 windsagio  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:12:26pm

re: #626 albusteve

A little too blatant steve, honey :)

628 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:13:21pm

re: #620 b_sharp

Most of those crossing the border are doing so to get things like hips and knees replaced. There is indeed a wait list that is too long for that kind of surgery. However, if you have cancer, or heart problems, or any other severe problem the wait is much shorter. Unfortunately, when something does go wrong, the case is publicized far and wide.

How many people are uncovered in the US? How many can't afford to get work done so just suffer with it? How many go bankrupt?

Premier Williams is a Progressive Conservative, not NDP. Although he explains it by saying it was a highly specialized operation and he wanted a doctor that does that particular operation many times a day, most people do not understand why he went to the States considering he could have gotten the operation in Ontario.

My question to you is, how would changing our system to mirror the US system make it better? Would those poor people have their own doctors, or would they be forced to run to the ER?

Why in the world would you compare our system to North Korea? That is unfounded and quite insulting.

There are plenty of people that are uncovered but they are not refused medical treatment. Even illegal aliens are afforded full health care here.

As to your question, I never said Canada ought to adopt the US system. I do believe that Canadian SC decision to allow citizens to seek their own health care is a positive development. I believe that over time, as more private clinics/hospitals come online- and the demand is clearly there- the 'competition' will make for better health care in the public system.

Like I said, there is no perfect system when it comes to health care. Canada has it's health care culture which is very different from the health care culture here.

629 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:16:25pm

re: #623 Nimed

There. Now I completely agree with your post.

There is also the population factor. By comparison, they are 10% of our population. That too can skew results. Delivering health care to 30 million is not the same as delivering health care to 300 million, irrespective of how it is delivered.

630 zora  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:20:32pm

re: #618 albusteve

i also think withdrawal in necessary at this point. as far as that list of republicans, i think they are all wackos/ and or attention whores and agree with them on almost nothing. this is bizarro world for me.

[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

i also completely agree with this letter from bill kristol regarding michael steel.

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

and the statement from the dems sounds like it was written by karl rove himself.

631 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:25:37pm

re: #624 lostlakehiker

Is it because of their health care system that Canadians are slimmer? Is it because our own doctors do not advise us on what a healthy weight is?

Life expectancy depends on many things outside the health care system. Bad eating habits, drinking habits, or driving habits play a part. And what about people who die in gunfights? They had a bad doctor?

I'm not arguing that Canada has a lousy health care system. But these sorts of statistics only go to prove that Canadians are, for some reason, healthier than Yanquis. The difference could well lie in our taste for fast women, fast cars, fast food, and hard likker, rather than being a mirror of our different health care systems.

Perhaps somebody has done a study comparing Seattle to Vancouver. That might be more instructive.

Provo, Utah to Cardston, Canada.

632 gamark  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:35:02pm

re: #619 blueraven

here in the U.S., it depends on your income level or job status if certain conditions are detected earlier. At least that is the way it has been for years. If you cant afford to go to the doctor, you don't get diagnosed until you end up in the ER.

That is certainly true for some number of cases. On the other hand, not getting a yearly physical or seeing a doctor for some symptom troubling you is often a matter of personal spending priorities. Typically, going to a doctor for a diagnosis is within the means of the vast majority of people. Even if medical care were free or otherwise well within your means, there would be many many people who still wouldn't go to the doctor until the point where it was the ER they went to. There are lots of preventive healthcare screening offerings which are very cheap for those who care to look around. For instance, Emory healthcare in Atlanta offers a heart disease screening for $150 which includes a damn CT scan!

633 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:39:02pm

re: #619 blueraven

I don't mean to be disrespectful, especially about the death of someone you know, or at least are aware of.

But here in the U.S., it depends on your income level or job status if certain conditions are detected earlier. At least that is the way it has been for years. If you cant afford to go to the doctor, you don't get diagnosed until you end up in the ER.

I'm here in NC. The individual I was speaking of was in Canada. As I noted there is no perfect system, anywhere.

My remarks were more about the medical protocols and how they might be affected by different medical systems.

634 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:45:57pm

re: #595 researchok

Not at all!

Prenatal care, diet, environment, etc all impact those numbers.

OK, then just how do we analyze a health system to determine its value?

635 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:50:23pm

re: #608 EmmmieG

At least one study was done in which two populations, in one America and one in Canada which were known to be similar in genetics and socioeconomics were studied.

You're more likley to die of cancer in Canada, if you contract it.

If I am remembering the same study as you, it wasn't all cancers, it was a few rather specific types.

636 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:52:29pm

re: #610 albusteve

it certainly isn't for their pro football

Hey, hey hey. We just had a helluva good CFL game last night, double overtime and the 'Riders won one against the same team they lost the Grey Cup to last year.

637 b_sharp  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 3:57:59pm

re: #611 researchok

No, single payer is most inefficient. See the problems mentioned above. I do suspect now that Canada is off the 'North Korean' model things will improve as patients are allowed more medical freedoms.

I do believe that environmental issues and to some degree cultural issues give Canada a lead in overall health.

Stop making the claim that Canada is now or ever has used the North Korean model. You are using it just to poison the well.

The introduction of private clinics in Alberta and BC has had very little impact on health services. The rich get served quicker and the poor get served slower. Alberta's relative rich economy has had a much greater impact because they can pay doctors and nurses more so the shortage is less severe.

638 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:00:45pm

re: #624 lostlakehiker

Is it because of their health care system that Canadians are slimmer? Is it because our own doctors do not advise us on what a healthy weight is?

Life expectancy depends on many things outside the health care system. Bad eating habits, drinking habits, or driving habits play a part. And what about people who die in gunfights? They had a bad doctor?

I'm not arguing that Canada has a lousy health care system. But these sorts of statistics only go to prove that Canadians are, for some reason, healthier than Yanquis. The difference could well lie in our taste for fast women, fast cars, fast food, and hard likker, rather than being a mirror of our different health care systems.

Perhaps somebody has done a study comparing Seattle to Vancouver. That might be more instructive.

Correlation may not imply causation. However it is instructive that those healthier Canadians are correlated with a political ideology that emphasizes empathic care, while our unhealthy population is correlated with an ideology that emphasizes abject selfism.

639 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:02:51pm

re: #634 b_sharp

OK, then just how do we analyze a health system to determine its value?

If you mean compare systems, well, that becomes problematic. There are too many variables, different size samples, cultural distinctions, etc. I'm not sure it can be done.

In the strictest sense of analysis, you have to measure patient satisfaction rates, physician satisfaction rates treatment protocols, access to services, proximity to both basic and advanced health care, accessibility, wait times for treatment, surgery, number of health care providers and types per 1,000, etc.

Unless and until you have agreed upon criteria, any 'analysis' is pretty much a wasted effort.

You're asking a loaded question!

640 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:10:17pm

re: #637 b_sharp

Stop making the claim that Canada is now or ever has used the North Korean model. You are using it just to poison the well.

The introduction of private clinics in Alberta and BC has had very little impact on health services. The rich get served quicker and the poor get served slower. Alberta's relative rich economy has had a much greater impact because they can pay doctors and nurses more so the shortage is less severe.

I did not coin the term 'North Korean' model. That was first used in Canada by a Canadian pundit in Canadian media. The term hit a nerve and caught on.

The origin of the term came about because until a recent Canadian Supreme Court decision Canadians were not allowed to seek any medical care in Canada outside the public system. Hence the sarcastic reference to authoritarian North Korea.

That was first challenged in the Province of Quebec and ended up being adjudicated by the Supreme Court of Canada. They ruled that Canada could not tell a citizen they had no choices to receive heath care outside the government system (as is the case in NK)

Immediately after the decision, private clinics and hospitals opened up all over Canada, addressing a pent up demand. The number of private clinics, hospitals and doctors operating outside the system has increased dramatically.

641 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:15:18pm

re: #639 researchok

In the strictest sense of analysis, you have to measure patient satisfaction rates, physician satisfaction rates treatment protocols, access to services, proximity to both basic and advanced health care, accessibility, wait times for treatment, surgery, number of health care providers and types per 1,000, etc.

Right, real world outcomes don't matter a bit, just intangible touchy feely things like physician satisfaction and finding three different ways to phrase "access." Who cares about the actual metrics, heath care and cancer outcomes, why they live longer, have relatively fewer low birth weight babies and more successful births. No, we couldn't possibly be fatter and die sooner because our culture is one of self centered indulgence, that would make too much sense.

642 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:20:59pm

re: #638 goddamnedfrank

Correlation may not imply causation. However it is instructive that those healthier Canadians are correlated with a political ideology that emphasizes empathic care, while our unhealthy population is correlated with an ideology that emphasizes abject selfism.

Abject selfism?

Americans are the most generous people in the world, measured by charitable giving as a percent of GDP. Americans give twice as much (1.67% of GDP) as the next most charitable country, the U.K. at 0.73%, according to this study by the Charities Aid Foundation (chart above is taken from the study). Americans give almost 12 times as much as the French and almost 8 times as much as the Germans. In fact, Americans give more as a percent of GDP than France, Germany, Turkey, New Zealand, Singapore and the Netherlands COMBINED!

And charitable giving in the U.S. set another record in 2006 at almost $300 billion, about the same amount as the GDP of Denmark, Greece, Austria or Norway.

USA Today

Chart is here. (page 7 of PDF)

Americans give over twice as much as Canadians.

643 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:43:31pm

re: #628 researchok

There are plenty of people that are uncovered but they are not refused medical treatment. Even illegal aliens are afforded full health care here.

Bullshit. They aren't refused emergency-room treatment. They absolutely are refused treatment for anything that isn't likely to kill you soon.

Sorry, but that's just absolutely factually incorrect.

644 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:45:04pm

re: #641 goddamnedfrank

Right, real world outcomes don't matter a bit, just intangible touchy feely things like physician satisfaction and finding three different ways to phrase "access." Who cares about the actual metrics, heath care and cancer outcomes, why they live longer, have relatively fewer low birth weight babies and more successful births. No, we couldn't possibly be fatter and die sooner because our culture is one of self centered indulgence, that would make too much sense.

What are you talking about? Those things are a part of every science based social science research and survey.

Further, you have not addressed environmental issues as others here have. You might want to check that out.

645 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:47:36pm

re: #643 Fozzie Bear

Bullshit. They aren't refused emergency-room treatment. They absolutely are refused treatment for anything that isn't likely to kill you soon.

Sorry, but that's just absolutely factually incorrect.

Not here in NC. Duke is very proud of the services and clinics they have established.

In fact, even advanced care and transplants are given to both illegals and poor here.

That is factually accurate.

646 gamark  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:49:12pm

re: #643 Fozzie Bear

Who refuses treatment based on immigration status?

647 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:50:08pm

re: #645 researchok

Not here in NC. Duke is very proud of the services and clinics they have established.

In fact, even advanced care and transplants are given to both illegals and poor here.

That is factually accurate.

So it's factually accurate that in your area a charity will provide care? How does that bolster any argument other than that wealthy areas have more access to care, and that access is extremely uneven?

If you get sick without insurance anywhere near where I live, you are shit out of luck. If you are actually dying, you can get care. Not before.

648 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:52:20pm

re: #646 gamark

Who refuses treatment based on immigration status?

They refuse care on the statrus that they don't have insurance.

The only situation in which you are guaranteed care at an emergency room, at great cost to everyone else, is if you are uninsured, and seriously ill or injured. This is regardless of immigration status. That isn't an argument for anything. It just helps illustrates the seriousness of the problem.

649 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:53:00pm

re: #643 Fozzie Bear

Bullshit. They aren't refused emergency-room treatment. They absolutely are refused treatment for anything that isn't likely to kill you soon.

Sorry, but that's just absolutely factually incorrect.

Actually, your remarks are bullshit.

Poor people are on various forms of medical assistance, paid for by our taxes. They can be seen in clinics, hospitals and physicians.

Only illegals have an issue with regular medical care.

650 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:54:53pm

re: #646 gamark

Who refuses treatment based on immigration status?

Because they don't have insurance. Some states (California) will provide care insurance status notwithstanding.

651 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:56:33pm

Wow. What planet are you living on dude? Are we just making shit up now?

Lets pretend for a second that your absurd claim that everyone in America has health care is true. How is it currently being paid for?

652 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:56:38pm

re: #648 Fozzie Bear

They refuse care on the statrus that they don't have insurance.

The only situation in which you are guaranteed care at an emergency room, at great cost to everyone else, is if you are uninsured, and seriously ill or injured. This is regardless of immigration status. That isn't an argument for anything. It just helps illustrates the seriousness of the problem.

So you also believe we ought to pay for medical care for illegals?

653 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:58:42pm

re: #651 Fozzie Bear

Wow. What planet are you living on dude? Are we just making shit up now?

Lets pretend for a second that your absurd claim that everyone in America has health care is true. How is it currently being paid for?

Right. Medicaid is a fantasy, as are all the state versions as well SCHIP for kids and seniors.

654 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:02:02pm

re: #652 researchok

So you also believe we ought to pay for medical care for illegals?

My opinion:

Actually, we should have single payer, or at the very least a public nationwide insurance pool, aka, the "public option". As for illegals, and anyone, for that matter, any humane and moral system must provide health care, or see to it that it is provided. Not doing so is to invite a public health problem.

To insist on a completely private system does not escape that shared burden. If emergency rooms are compelled at their own expense to treat people, regardless of payment, then we all end up paying for it anyway. If they are not so compelled, then it is not a society I want to be a part of. Such would be an immoral nation, and one with public health crises one after another, in due time.

655 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:03:38pm

re: #653 researchok

Right. Medicaid is a fantasy, as are all the state versions as well SCHIP for kids and seniors.

If you aren't a kid or a senior, and are employed but don't have a good job, as is the case for tens of millions of americans, you don't qualify.

That sort of throws the whole "everybody" bullshit out the window. Do I seriously need to source this for you so you'll believe me?

656 gamark  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:05:42pm

re: #650 researchok

Because they don't have insurance. Some states (California) will provide care insurance status notwithstanding.

Ah, okay. Maybe I misunderstood. Insurance status is different than immigration status. Even so, I'm surprised insurance status is an issue. I would think it would be an ability to pay issue. Its been about 15 years since I went to the ER without insurance and a nasty cut that needed 15 stitches. They treated me but I got a hefty bill for which I worked out a payment plan with the hospital business office. Is it really the case that some hospitals refuse to treat someone solely because they lack insurance?

657 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:05:49pm

Seriously, the entire freaking reason there was any push at all for HCR was basically 2 things:

1. The cost.
2. The fact that millions of people don't have access to it.

658 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:07:13pm

re: #656 gamark

You can pay cash if you want. And if it's just stitches, it might only be 500 or so dollars. Break a leg, or need surgery, or anything serious, and you are looking at prices that make house shopping seem cheap.

That's the problem.

659 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:11:03pm

re: #654 Fozzie Bear

Even a right-of-center person like me was very disappointed that Obama removed "the public option". I would have loved to see a single-payer high-deductible public option to serve as a safety net for many Americans. Without that, I think that HCR ended up being a big mess.

660 gamark  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:13:58pm

re: #658 Fozzie Bear

Yeah, I get that. It is sad, but there are certainly treatments out of financial reach for some people. Where/how would you draw the line? I mean, not everyone that needs a heart transplant can afford it. Should we as a society pay for everyone that needs a new heart (leaving aside the issue of organ availability)? If not everybody, how do we decide which to treat and which to leave on their own?

661 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:18:49pm

re: #660 gamark

The line is somewhere between basic immunizations/checkups/etc and free fake boobs and Viagra for everyone.

But my point is that the conversation should be about where the line is, not whether we should make sure everyone has medical care.

662 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:21:06pm

re: #659 reuven

Even a right-of-center person like me was very disappointed that Obama removed "the public option". I would have loved to see a single-payer high-deductible public option to serve as a safety net for many Americans. Without that, I think that HCR ended up being a big mess.

The public option was already, in itself, a compromise. Single payer was the idea that polled highest with the DNC base, at first, but that was pulled from the table. The public option was the moderate idea. The initially proposed public plan was less expansive that the one Nixon advocated for. But that just illustrates how far to the right the 'center' has been pushed.

663 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:31:39pm

Fozzie, you're full of shit. Don't tar and feather me when you don't know what you are talking about. Whether or not you like it, even the uninsured have access to health care. There are clinics, hospital and doctors all over the country that see uninsured patients all the time. It mau not be what you like, you may have to wait in line but you can and will get health care. The fact that where you live health care is more limited than here speaks volumes about the community live in.

I never said there weren't problems with health care. In fact, I am for health care reform and have stated so in this thread. My issue is in how we pay for it. Please don't be fraudulent in your accusations and characterizations.

As for the single payer option, that is a well documented failure in Canada and the UK. To advocate only highlights how little you know about the subject.

I'm sorry to inform you that you do not live in a hell hole of a country amongst cruel and evil people. In fact, you live in the best and most generous country in the world.

664 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:45:40pm

When you are basing your arguments on false premises, there is no argument to be had. It is absolutely true that there are millions of people with no access to health care. It's so obviously true that even the GOP didn't attempt to dispute that point during the HCR debate.

And this:

The fact that where you live health care is more limited than here speaks volumes about the community live in.

Really?...

Have a nice day.

665 researchok  Fri, Jul 2, 2010 5:54:41pm

It is absolutely true that millions of uninsured Americans can access health care at all levels. You are being dishonest in implying otherwise.

Single payer health care is a bust. Look through the thread.

666 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Jul 3, 2010 1:46:44pm

Everyone -

It IS the Acorn Theory - Seeds FALL NOT Far From the Tree. Go from there.

-S-

667 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Jul 3, 2010 1:49:37pm

re: #665 researchok

researchok -

YOU are correct, for which you can "Blame" the Nixon Administration - Like - DUH?

-S-


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