Tim Pawlenty, Climate Change Denier (and Creationist)

The anti-science party
Wingnuts • Views: 44,028

The Republican Party is deliberately lying to the American public about the dangers of climate change, and presidential contender Tim Pawlenty proved it when he appeared on Fox News and claimed that “science indicates” that global warming is due to natural causes.

“I denounced it for a number of reasons, one of which is the science is bad, and it’s in great dispute,” Pawlenty explained Tuesday. “There is climate change — there’s always been climate change — but until recently, people were worried as much about global cooling.” …

“So there is climate change, but the reality is the science of it indicates that most of it, if not all of it, is caused by natural causes,” he said on Fox News. “And as to the potential human contribution to that, there’s a great scientific dispute about that very issue.”

There’s absolutely no doubt that Pawlenty is lying here; either he knows that there is no “great scientific dispute” and is lying about that, or he’s lying when he claims to have investigated the issue and changed his mind — because there’s no way an impartial reading of the scientific evidence for human-caused climate change could ever lead an honest person to conclude that it’s in dispute. Yes, there are always disagreements about details, and arguments over interpretations, but the vast preponderance of evidence leaves no doubt that carbon dioxide produced by human activity is the main driver of the climate changes being measured and studied around the world.

Pawlenty isn’t alone in his determined ignorance; nearly all of the top people in the GOP spout similar nonsense. What the Republican Party’s leaders are doing is incredibly dangerous, and incredibly irresponsible. They’re setting the United States up for failure and disaster in the coming years.

Video

This isn’t the only type of science Pawlenty denies; he’s also a creationist, who believes that public schools should teach creationism alongside evolution in science classes: Pawlenty: Another GOP Creationist on the Rise.

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358 comments
1 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:27:51am

But what causes lying?

Hint: it was to do with $.

2 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:30:38am

Still willing to vote for this guy over Obama DF?

3 Four More Tears  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:30:40am

You know, if someone believes in Creationism, I’m far less inclined to take their opinion on climate change seriously.

4 Four More Tears  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:31:16am

re: #2 jamesfirecat

Still willing to vote for this guy over Obama DF?

Quit talking to yourself.

5 celticdragon  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:31:31am

These idiots will the ruin of us all in their thirst for unrestrained power.

6 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:31:56am

I really don’t know whether to credit this to short-term political gain— that he’s trying to appeal to the large numbers of scientifically ignorant who believe the propaganda that the right-wing outlets have put out on this topic over the past decades— or whether he honestly believes that god will somehow intervene. Or maybe he thinks the world will end.

The reality is that AGW is real, that it is going to devastate the world economy, that it will place US military members at risk, and that, if totally unchecked, it’s going to lead to mass starvation even here in the US.

I have no idea why the GOP wants to keep the US on that path. It’s a path where China dominates us economically and we are no longer the leader of the free world.

7 Interesting Times  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:32:22am

By denying the causes and dangers of AGW, the GOP is jeopardizing national security:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Can we question their patriotism yet?

8 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:32:37am

Just because morons don’t understand the science doesn’t mean its in dispute.

9 mr.fusion  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:32:52am

When did we reach the point that facts don’t matter? It feels to me like it’s a fairly new phenomenon but I could definitely be wrong about that…..I mean wouldn’t Bachmann’s “JQA was a founding father” comment have immediately ended her candidacy in cycles past?

10 Lidane  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:34:03am

For all their blather about “American Exceptionalism”, the GOP sure wants this country to move backwards and to become as ignorant and uninformed as possible.

How does it help us to be illiterate about science by denying AGW and insisting on the fairy tale of Creationism as a valid counter to evolution? We’re in a globalized economy that is moving quickly. We need to compete to be better. Being a bunch of backwards religious nutjobs and buying into these anti-AGW lies? NOT HELPING.

11 Four More Tears  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:34:09am

So…why exactly does Pawlenty matter, anyway? He doesn’t have a chance.

(betting this comment won’t come back to bite me in the ass…)

12 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:34:41am

re: #9 mr.fusion

This is a nation that’s claimed marijuana has no medical benefits for about a hundred years.

We’ve never been all that fact-based. But I agree it’s gotten worse.

13 Lidane  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:36:01am

re: #3 JasonA

You know, if someone believes in Creationism, I’m far less inclined to take their opinion on climate change anything seriously.

Fixed that for me. I just can’t take anyone seriously who buys into Creationism, especially Young Earth Creationism. At that point, I lose all interest in anything they have to say.

14 mr.fusion  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:36:46am

re: #12 Obdicut


We’ve never been all that fact-based. But I agree it’s gotten worse.

And the stakes are so much higher now. Saying (and believing) “if we don’t raise the debt ceiling nothing will happen,” “climate change is a hoax,” or “tax cuts for billionaires will trickle down their legs and into the mouths of the peasants” is just plain dangerous.

15 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:40:25am

re: #14 mr.fusion

Yeah. The anti-intellectual, anti-science attitude the GOP has been preaching has reached a really, really dangerous zenith. We’re at a stage where the only thing that can possibly help the US maintain its economic dominance is far-reaching advances in science, and we have a political party that’s actively hostile to scientists, and they’ve managed to convince a large percentage of the population to also mistrust, distrust, and actively attack scientists.

It’s now in a dangerous feedback loop; now that the GOP and the right-wing media has done such a good job of convincing the public that scientist are all involved in a massive conspiracy, they’re locked into it. They can’t back down from their lie, they can’t possibly admit that they’ve been actively deceiving the US public on a matter of such grave importance.

16 elizajane  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:43:38am

1. Pawlenty has never been the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree.

2. As his numbers tank, he’s scurrying to find a line that will endear him to the Republican base again.

That’s all it is. Nothing to do with science, knowledge, or understanding of any sort except simplistic, short-term political calculus.

18 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:47:44am

re: #16 elizajane

1. Pawlenty has never been the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree.

2. As his numbers tank, he’s scurrying to find a line that will endear him to the Republican base again.

That’s all it is. Nothing to do with science, knowledge, or understanding of any sort except simplistic, short-term political calculus.

That’s true, but the problem is that what he’s saying here is totally mainstream Republican thinking. It’s not just Pawlenty — it’s ALL of them. Even Huntsman, who doesn’t outright deny the existence of climate change, is saying there’s no pressing need to do anything about it.

The GOP as a whole has taken a stand against science in two very critical areas — biology and climatology. The implications of this stance are very disturbing.

19 Locker  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:49:17am

Why the fuck isn’t there a big ass headline on CNN stating “Pawlenty lies about Climate Change science.”? Why do these bucket heads constantly get a pass?

20 Political Atheist  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:50:14am

re: #18 Charles

One might add economics to that biology & climatology, if you can call that a science.

21 Political Atheist  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:50:47am

re: #19 Locker

Why hasn’t the Obama campaign?

22 Idle Drifter  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:50:58am

re: #15 Obdicut

We can’t compete with countries like China or India in future without heavy investment in education, science, technology, and intellectual properties. The only solution for too many on this ugly rant of America First is going to start a trade and economic war that we could not win. Coupled with isolationism it’s going to be an ugly downward spiral.

23 Idle Drifter  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:52:45am

Later folks. I need to pick up some headache medicine and running shoes. Yes, I’m serious.

24 blueraven  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:53:26am

re: #18 Charles

That’s true, but the problem is that what he’s saying here is totally mainstream Republican thinking. It’s not just Pawlenty — it’s ALL of them. Even Huntsman, who doesn’t outright deny the existence of climate change, is saying there’s no pressing need to do anything about it.

The GOP as a whole has taken a stand against science in two very critical areas — biology and climatology. The implications of this stance are very disturbing.

Yes, they all want the Koch brothers money and their considerable influence. They have no choice. It is toe the line, or else!

25 celticdragon  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:54:10am

re: #18 Charles

That’s true, but the problem is that what he’s saying here is totally mainstream Republican thinking. It’s not just Pawlenty — it’s ALL of them. Even Huntsman, who doesn’t outright deny the existence of climate change, is saying there’s no pressing need to do anything about it.

The GOP as a whole has taken a stand against science in two very critical areas — biology and climatology. The implications of this stance are very disturbing.

Don’t forget geology as well..unless it is for finding natural gas laden shale beds that can be frakked. Young Earth Creationism is a complete rejection of geology.

26 makeitstop  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:55:15am

OT: Bachmann’s former chief of staff declares her ‘unqualified’ to be prez, backs Pawlenty

“The Bachmann campaign and congressional office I inherited were wildly out of control,” Carey wrote. “If she is unable, or unwilling, to handle the basic duties of a campaign or congressional office, how could she possible manage the magnitude of the presidency?”

Quite a slap at Bachmann. OTOH, backing Pawlenty makes his judgment suspect AFAIC…

27 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:55:23am

re: #25 celticdragon

Don’t forget geology as well..unless it is for finding natural gas laden shale beds that can be frakked. Young Earth Creationism is a complete rejection of geology.

I reject rocks and substitute clams.

28 celticdragon  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:55:42am

re: #19 Locker

Why the fuck isn’t there a big ass headline on CNN stating “Pawlenty lies about Climate Change science.”? Why do these bucket heads constantly get a pass?


Because they feed the “report the controversy” meme…and the GOP has done a damned good job of cowing the media with the “librul bias” thing for 30 years.

29 Chrysicat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:56:01am

re: #22 Idle Drifter

Look on the bright side—once we get to be the biggest s***hole in the once-developed world, manufacturing jobs will flock back here because it’d be more expensive to produce goods in China!

30 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:56:59am

“I denounced it for a number of reasons, one of which is the science is bad, and it’s in great dispute,” Pawlenty explained Tuesday. “There is climate change — there’s always been climate change — but until recently, people were worried as much about global cooling.”

I suppose for an intellectual fossil like Pawlenty the 50’s was recent.

Youtube Video
31 Lidane  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:57:43am

re: #19 Locker

Why the fuck isn’t there a big ass headline on CNN stating “Pawlenty lies about Climate Change science.”? Why do these bucket heads constantly get a pass?

Because CNN are a bunch of squishy douchebags that try to play the middle so they don’t offend anyone. That’s why.

32 celticdragon  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:57:56am

re: #27 Varek Raith

I reject rocks and substitute clams.


I keep wondering how trilobites would have tasted when fried in extra virgin olive oil and drizzled with white truffle oil and butter.

33 Lidane  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:58:35am

re: #27 Varek Raith

I reject rocks and substitute clams.

I reject your clams and substitute my own mussels.

34 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:59:20am

re: #33 Lidane

I reject your reality, and substitute my own.

35 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:59:22am

re: #32 celticdragon

I keep wondering how trilobites would have tasted when fried in extra virgin olive oil and drizzled with white truffle oil and butter.

Probably like shrimp. So trilobite scampi would be in.

36 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:00:35am

Elsewhere on the climate front, there has still been no rain in Lubbock, and there is no chance of any for at least another week. We stand at 1.01 inches for the year, 1/9 of the average for the first six months. It will also be over a hundred degrees again today, the 23rd such high this year and the 11th straight.
There is a consensus that this is caused by an unusally strong “La Nina,” the cool phase of the El Niño/La Niña-Southern Oscillation. There is no hard proof that the extraordinary intensity of the current cycle is related to AGW but there is some pretty strong evidence.

37 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:00:45am

Morning all!

Back is much better this am.

How are you doing?

38 bluecheese  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:01:14am

Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do

39 Lidane  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:01:24am

re: #34 lawhawk

I reject your reality, and substitute my own.

That too. Heh.

I’m not even that big of a seafood fan. The occasional lobster tail with my steak, or grilled fish or shrimp at a restaurant, but that’s about it.

40 makeitstop  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:01:59am

re: #37 ggt

Morning all!

Back is much better this am.

How are you doing?

Glad to hear you’re feeling better today.

It’s a glorious day here in NY. The only thing keeping it from being a perfect day is work!

41 Lidane  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:02:11am

re: #38 bluecheese

Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do

Cut down all the trees in the rainforest to stop climate change!

///

42 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:02:38am

re: #38 bluecheese

Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do

I thought it was termites?

43 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:03:08am

re: #41 Lidane

///

If those trees got out of the way, the wind could blow more and cool off the earth better.

44 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:03:20am

Flake!

45 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:03:33am

re: #40 makeitstop

Glad to hear you’re feeling better today.

It’s a glorious day here in NY. The only thing keeping it from being a perfect day is work!

It would be a very imperfect day if you had NO work.

I try not to complain about having to go to work . .. .

46 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:03:55am

re: #38 bluecheese

Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do

You can’t drive trees either. You can drive cattle, but they are also famous for emitting greenhouse gases.

47 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:04:04am

re: #43 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If those trees got out of the way, the wind could blow more and cool off the earth better.

There would be fewer allergies!!!

48 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:04:21am

re: #43 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If those trees got out of the way, the wind could blow more and cool off the earth better.

Brilliant!
We should use nukes to level the forests. Much quicker that way!

49 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:04:52am

re: #48 Varek Raith

Brilliant!
We should use nukes to level the forests. Much quicker that way!

Much fewer alleriges if nukes are used!

50 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:06:11am

re: #36 Shiplord Kirel

Elsewhere on the climate front, there has still been no rain in Lubbock, and there is no chance of any for at least another week. We stand at 1.01 inches for the year, 1/9 of the average for the first six months. It will also be over a hundred degrees again today, the 23rd such high this year and the 11th straight.
There is a consensus that this is caused by an unusally strong “La Nina,” the cool phase of the El Niño/La Niña-Southern Oscillation. There is no hard proof that the extraordinary intensity of the current cycle is related to AGW but there is some pretty strong evidence.

But at least it’s a “dry” heat as compared to the Houston sweat box.
;)

Only been to Lubbock once though. That was back when my brother was going to grad school at Texas Tech.

51 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:06:53am

re: #18 Charles

That’s true, but the problem is that what he’s saying here is totally mainstream Republican thinking. It’s not just Pawlenty — it’s ALL of them. Even Huntsman, who doesn’t outright deny the existence of climate change, is saying there’s no pressing need to do anything about it.

The GOP as a whole has taken a stand against science in two very critical areas — biology and climatology. The implications of this stance are very disturbing.

There is a definite refusal to accept human responsibility. I suspect they aren’t philosophical enough to understand the difference between “G-d being in control” and “human responsibility”. Free Will and all that is way above some people’s “pay grade”.

52 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:07:49am

re: #49 ggt

Much fewer alleriges if nukes are used!

See!
We solved AGW and allergies in 10 minutes!
The hell is wrong with scientists?!?

53 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:08:04am

Outrage is brewing….
Obama says his 12-year-old is 13

54 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:08:39am

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Outrage is brewing…
Obama says his 12-year-old is 13

Geez, I forget how old I am half the time.

55 mikec6666  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:08:41am

“There’s absolutely no doubt that Pawlenty is lying here; either he knows that there is no “great scientific dispute” and is lying about that, or he’s lying when he claims to have investigated the issue and changed his mind — because there’s no way an impartial reading of the scientific evidence for human-caused climate change could ever lead an honest person to conclude that it’s in dispute.”

He’s lying about having changed his mind. He’s changed political positions, but I’m sure he hasn’t actually changed his mind. Pathetic really. He could have used that to set himself apart from the pack.

56 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:09:05am

re: #52 Varek Raith

See!
We solved AGW and allergies in 10 minutes!
The hell is wrong with scientists?!?

Nothing, they are just savvy enough not to put all the options on the table.

57 jaunte  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:13:13am

re: #51 ggt

The essence of the Republican message is “it’s still okay to be selfish.”

58 Political Atheist  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:13:27am

re: #26 makeitstop

OT: Bachmann’s former chief of staff declares her ‘unqualified’ to be prez, backs Pawlenty

Quite a slap at Bachmann. OTOH, backing Pawlenty makes his judgment suspect AFAIC…

Or you can look at that as Bachmann being so much worse by comparison….

59 simoom  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:13:39am

Here’s a USA Today write-up pushing back against the fantasy that not raising the debt-ceiling would just “force us to live within our means” and not have catastrophic repercussions:

[Link: www.usatoday.com…]

Although the Treasury Department likely could avoid delaying Social Security checks, the analysis by the Bipartisan Policy Center points up the depth of the cuts that would be needed if the $14.3 trillion debt ceiling isn’t raised.

It shows that in August, the government could not afford to meet 44% of its obligations. Since the $134 billion deficit for that month couldn’t be covered with more borrowing, programs would have to be cut.

If Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment benefits, payments to defense contractors and interest payments on Treasury bonds were exempt, that would be all the government could afford for the month. No money for troops or veterans. No tax refunds. No food stamps or welfare. No federal salaries or benefits.

And:

“We should be honest with ourselves what this would be like, and the answer is it would be chaotic,” said Jay Powell, a former top Treasury official in President George H.W. Bush’s administration. “There is no way to avoid really serious pain.”

…

Things wouldn’t improve much as the days pass. The first major interest payment to creditors would be due Aug. 15 — $29 billion, more than the $22 billion due to arrive in revenue.

On that day, Treasury would have to roll over nearly $500 billion in maturing debt — necessitating an auction which, by that time, might have fewer takers than usual. If demand declines, interest rates would rise.

As the center foresees it, the picture would get worse: layoffs and lawsuits. Global market reaction and media glare. A possible downgrade in the U.S. credit rating, perhaps followed by the loss of market access.

The effect on the country, said former Republican senator Pete Domenici of New Mexico, would be “irretrievable.”

This dovetails nicely with a 1 minute video KT posted a little while back, in which Douglas Holtz-Eakin, chief economic policy adviser to Sen. McCain’s 2008 presidential campaign, charts out the actual $ figures and demonstrates why not raising the debt ceiling is would be madness:

Youtube Video
60 makeitstop  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:14:18am

re: #45 ggt

It would be a very imperfect day if you had NO work.

I try not to complain about having to go to work . .. .

I know. But the urge to play hooky is very strong today. :)

61 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:14:20am

How come dogs know immediately what you are going to eat when you walk into the kitchen?

Mine waited patiently then all three cleaned the spoon of peanut butter. Very cute.

62 blueraven  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:14:28am

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Outrage is brewing…
Obama says his 12-year-old is 13

Oh good grief. She turns 13 in a few days. What a stupid article by politico. Is the the MBF for all of Bachmann’s gaffes?

63 Political Atheist  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:16:09am

re: #59 simoom

Are you going to Page that? It’s worthy IMO.

64 recusancy  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:16:31am

re: #62 blueraven

Oh good grief. She turns 13 in a few days. What a stupid article by politico. Is the the MBF for all of Bachmann’s gaffes?

It got KT to link to it and people to click on it. That’s all Politico cares about. They win.

65 simoom  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:17:13am

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Outrage is brewing…
Obama says his 12-year-old is 13

Every-time I read Politico44 I get the sense that it’s to Politico as Fox Nation is to Fox News…

66 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:18:31am

re: #57 jaunte

The essence of the Republican message is “it’s still okay to be selfish.”

Selfish has it’s own philosophical nuances as well.

67 blueraven  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:19:40am

re: #64 recusancy

It got KT to link to it and people to click on it. That’s all Politico cares about. They win.

WINNING!! It’s not just for Charlie Sheen anymore.

68 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:20:41am

I love the part of the video where Steve Doocy derps, “It’s OK to change your mind!”

Sure, it is. Just look at how OK it was for me to change my mind on climate change.

Of course, I changed from being a skeptic to accepting the evidence, because I took the time to actually educate myself about it.

69 jaunte  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:21:58am

re: #66 ggt

I mean, on a simple level, the Republican candidates are denying the science of AGW because they want the votes of people who fear someone will tell them they have to accept limits.

70 makeitstop  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:22:26am

re: #68 Charles

I love the part of the video where Steve Doocy derps, “It’s OK to change your mind!”

Just so long as you change your mind to agree with people like Doocey. The other way, not so OK.

But I don’t need to tell you that.

71 Bulworth  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:27:52am

So, “the science is bad”, but “the science of it indicates that most of it…is caused by natural causes” although “it’s in great dispute”.

OK, got it.

Makes George W. sound positively scholarly.

72 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:31:13am

re: #69 jaunte

I mean, on a simple level, the Republican candidates are denying the science of AGW because they want the votes of people who fear someone will tell them they have to accept limits.

Yes, the childish version of selfishness. “I want all the toys!!!!”

73 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:33:00am

re: #68 Charles

Of course, I changed from being a skeptic to accepting the evidence, because I took the time to actually educate myself about it.

Ah, you’d think people who want to be elected would do the same thing. I’d like to think that the average person would want to do the same thing. But it is sooo much easier to listen to other people and then sit back with brew and watch American Idol.

74 blueraven  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:35:29am

It is simple, albeit cynical, pragmatism on the part of republicans to adopt the climate change denial position.

The koch brothers have committed an all out assault on global warming

[Link: www.google.com…]

75 Lidane  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:36:01am

re: #72 ggt

Yes, the childish version of selfishness. “I want all the toys!!!”

Then they grow up, read Ayn Rand, and want all the toys as adults too.

76 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:37:16am

re: #75 Lidane

Then they grow up, read Ayn Rand, and want all the toys as adults too.

I don’t quite take Ayn Rand that way. Philosophy is difficult, Philospohers are difficult …

77 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:38:16am

re: #76 ggt

I don’t quite take Ayn Rand that way. Philosophy is difficult, Philospohers are difficult …

Most of her followers seem to take Ayn Rand that way, and at a certain point what someone’s followers believe over takes what the person actually said in maters of importance….

78 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:38:39am

re: #76 ggt

I don’t quite take Ayn Rand that way. Philosophy is difficult, Philospohers are difficult …

I’m actually watching part of a BBC docu series right now that begins with Ayn Rand:


Adam Curtis - All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace (Ep. 1) - Full

Youtube Video
79 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:39:35am

re: #76 ggt

I don’t quite take Ayn Rand that way. Philosophy is difficult, Philospohers are difficult …

Ayn Rand is laughed at by most (maybe 99 percent) of philosophers.

80 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:41:21am

re: #76 ggt

Ayn Rand’s ‘philosophy’ is incoherent, self-contradictory, and based on about a billion demonstrably false assumptions.

81 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:42:05am

re: #77 jamesfirecat

Most of her followers seem to take Ayn Rand that way, and at a certain point what someone’s followers believe over takes what the person actually said in maters of importance…

There has been a rift among Objectivists. As usually happens once the Philosopher has died.

One has to remember that Ayn Rand came from Communist Russia and take her work as the work of a Cold War contemporary.

The ideas don’t translate smoothly into our Brave New World.

There is nothing wrong with being prosperous and wanting to enjoy one’s prosperity. Wanting to do it specifically at the expense of others is wrong.

The idea that the pie is only so big and that taking one’s cut means you are depriving another is the crux of the issue, IMHO. I think it has to do with one’s concept of wealth and the limit one places on their own ability to create wealth.

82 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:42:13am

re: #76 ggt

I don’t quite take Ayn Rand that way. Philosophy is difficult, Philospohers are difficult …

The central message of Buddhism is not “Every man for himself.”
- Wanda (midst of a great mini-rant to Otto)

83 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:43:16am

As for creationism, how about the latest from Potholer54:

Youtube Video

LOL.

84 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:43:40am

re: #76 ggt

I don’t quite take Ayn Rand that way. Philosophy is difficult, Philospohers are difficult …

I don’t think Rand got her card from the Philosopher’s Union.

85 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:44:32am

re: #82 oaktree

The central message of Buddhism is not “Every man for himself.”
- Wanda (midst of a great mini-rant to Otto)

Yes, well, again, we are discussing two different species. Religion and Philosophy.

I’m not a great Randian, but I have found value in the thought process. I don’t think any philosopher is easier understood. And no Utophian idea is achievable.

86 Interesting Times  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:44:59am

re: #80 Obdicut

Ayn Rand’s ‘philosophy’ is incoherent, self-contradictory, and based on about a billion demonstrably false assumptions.

And isn’t it nice to know one of her biggest fans was a former Federal Reserve chairman? 9_9

Mr. Greenspan met Rand when he was 25 and working as an economic forecaster…Mr. Greenspan had married a member of Rand’s inner circle known as the Collective, that met every Saturday night in her New York apartment. Rand did not pay much attention to Mr. Greenspan until he began praising drafts of “Atlas,” which she read aloud to her disciples, according to Jeff Britting, the archivist of Ayn Rand’s papers. He was attracted, Mr. Britting said, to “her moral defense of capitalism.”

87 Locker  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:45:13am

re: #21 Rightwingconspirator

Why hasn’t the Obama campaign?

Because Obama runs positive campaigns… so far anyway.

88 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:45:57am

re: #86 publicityStunted

And isn’t it nice to know one of her biggest fans was a former Federal Reserve chairman? 9_9

Well, in the middle of the Cold War, it made sense.

Not so much now.

89 Blue Point  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:47:41am

Apparently the litmus test for any GOP/TP presidential hopeful is abject ignorance. That or being completely on the take.

90 makeitstop  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:47:55am

OT: Didja hear the one about the turtles on the airstrip?

91 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:48:23am

re: #81 ggt

There has been a rift among Objectivists. As usually happens once the Philosopher has died.

One has to remember that Ayn Rand came from Communist Russia and take her work as the work of a Cold War contemporary.

The ideas don’t translate smoothly into our Brave New World.

There is nothing wrong with being prosperous and wanting to enjoy one’s prosperity. Wanting to do it specifically at the expense of others is wrong.

The idea that the pie is only so big and that taking one’s cut means you are depriving another is the crux of the issue, IMHO. I think it has to do with one’s concept of wealth and the limit one places on their own ability to create wealth.

I agree with you because economics is not a zero sum game and thus the idea that by taking your slice of the pie are you depriving someone else of a slice is faulty in the extreme.

Limits towards creating wealth should be minimal (whatever helps the economy and hurts no one should be encouraged is my basic rule of thumb) but by the same token, at the end of the day everyone’s wealth is dependent upon the society they live in and not simply their own talents. Not just by hopefully providing them with a kick in the right direction (schools and libraries) but also because “wealth” is impossible to acquire without people to buy whatever you are selling, and it is meaningless without things to spend it on as generated by other people….

92 kirkspencer  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:49:17am

re: #81 ggt

There has been a rift among Objectivists. As usually happens once the Philosopher has died.

One has to remember that Ayn Rand came from Communist Russia and take her work as the work of a Cold War contemporary.

The ideas don’t translate smoothly into our Brave New World.

There is nothing wrong with being prosperous and wanting to enjoy one’s prosperity. Wanting to do it specifically at the expense of others is wrong.

The idea that the pie is only so big and that taking one’s cut means you are depriving another is the crux of the issue, IMHO. I think it has to do with one’s concept of wealth and the limit one places on their own ability to create wealth.

Yes.

Rand’s philosophy assumes mercantilism is correct - that value is solely in the goods, and no value is added by labor. (That the value of labor is exactly what she’s indicating with Galt’s gulch is blind irony, but I digress.)

In mercantilism, trade is a zero sum game, and one party’s gain requires a loss to the other. Post-mercantilism (of which Adam Smith was a keystone) came with the realization that this (among other things) isn’t necessarily true.

93 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:49:51am

re: #91 jamesfirecat

And Henry Ford worked out that having workers with money to spend was very helpful.

94 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:50:43am

re: #91 jamesfirecat

I agree with you because economics is not a zero sum game and thus the idea that by taking your slice of the pie are you depriving someone else of a slice is faulty in the extreme.

Limits towards creating wealth should be minimal (whatever helps the economy and hurts no one should be encouraged is my basic rule of thumb) but by the same token, at the end of the day everyone’s wealth is dependent upon the society they live in and not simply their own talents. Not just by hopefully providing them with a kick in the right direction (schools and libraries) but also because “wealth” is impossible to acquire without people to buy whatever you are selling, and it is meaningless without things to spend it on as generated by other people…

Rand also hated religion. I think what I like is that she championed the individual, which for me, when I read it was important. Coming from and RC upbringing in which martydom was championed, it was a welcome thought process.

There has to be balance.

95 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:53:46am

re: #94 ggt

Rand also hated religion. I think what I like is that she championed the individual, which for me, when I read it was important. Coming from and RC upbringing in which martydom was championed, it was a welcome thought process.

There has to be balance.

Rand indeed hated Religion… she also championed keeping abortions as a mater between a woman and her doctor, and though she found homosexuality personally unpleasant she had sufficient ovarian fortitude to admit that she could come up with no rational argument for discriminating against homosexuals….. why is this woman being held up as one of the bulwarks of the modern day GOP again?

96 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:54:07am

I don’t have a problem with the idea that selfishness is good. In my opinion it is good, in the right circumstances. There is an evolutionary dichotomy of the interests of the individual and interests of the group, even in colonial/social organisms. Different evolutionary pressures can favor one side of that dichotomy or the other and often there are pressures acting in both directions.

My problem with Randroids, libertarians, etc is that they start from false premises to reach a false conclusion. Just like communists, Rand etc start from overly simplistic axioms about the nature of human behavior. The reality is that selfishness and cooperation are both important aspects of human societies. Both have their advantages in various circumstances and being able to adjust the level of both is an important aspect of human adaptability.

97 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:54:53am

re: #94 ggt

Rand also hated religion. I think what I like is that she championed the individual, which for me, when I read it was important. Coming from and RC upbringing in which martydom was championed, it was a welcome thought process.

There has to be balance.

You should check out Nietszche (who is admittedly VERY hard to read). It is believed that a lot of Rand’s ideas of a post-god world came from him, although she denied it. She only ever credited Aristotle.

Although Nietszsche gets one of the worst raps imaginable, he is certainly one of the most profound thinkers of the last couple centuries.

98 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:54:55am

re: #95 jamesfirecat

Rand indeed hated Religion… she also championed keeping abortions as a mater between a woman and her doctor, and though she found homosexuality personally unpleasant she had sufficient ovarian fortitude to admit that she could come up with no rational argument for discriminating against homosexuals… why is this woman being held up as one of the bulwarks of the modern day GOP again?

Very good question!

Maybe it’s the childish interpretation of selfishness.

99 engineer cat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:55:37am

Bachmann Shaky Banana Nut History Shake Declared GOP Flavor Of The Month, Superseding Rocky Starting Road Amphibian Flavor and Vanilla Mormon Vanilla Vanilla Vanilla

will next month’s flavor taste more like chocolate hate ripple or coconut revisionist nutty economic theory with extremely rich bullshit sauce?

100 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:56:01am

re: #95 jamesfirecat

It was pretty amusing watching the RedState fans argue over whether they should idolize Rand when that shitty adaptation of her book came out a few months ago.
Capitalism vs Jesus!!!!

101 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:57:03am

OT:

US Senate passes resolution threatening to suspend aid to the Palestinian Authority if they pursue statehood at the UN in September rather than at the negotiating table pursuant to Oslo.

The resolution, introduced by Sen. Cardin (D-MD) had 88 (co)sponsors and passed with unanimous consent.

102 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:57:36am

re: #95 jamesfirecat

Rand indeed hated Religion… she also championed keeping abortions as a mater between a woman and her doctor, and though she found homosexuality personally unpleasant she had sufficient ovarian fortitude to admit that she could come up with no rational argument for discriminating against homosexuals… why is this woman being held up as one of the bulwarks of the modern day GOP again?

It’s enough to despise and fear the poor.

103 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:58:15am

Really, at the time, when so many were living under the philisophy “everything for the State” and Rand came out with the philosophy “everything for the Individual”, it was the preferred philosophy.

Neither works. A balance between the two seems to be an eternal struggle.

104 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:58:33am

re: #98 ggt

Very good question!

Maybe it’s the childish interpretation of selfishness.

///You mean the people who seem to believe that “Jesus hates fags” even though Jesus Christ never once mentioned the subject of homosexuality in any of his recorded speeches might possibly reinturperate the works of some other dead historical figure to suit their own ends? Say it ain’t so!

105 researchok  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 11:59:59am

re: #103 ggt

Really, at the time, when so many were living under the philisophy “everything for the State” and Rand came out with the philosophy “everything for the Individual”, it was the preferred philosophy.

Neither works. A balance between the two seems to be an eternal struggle.

As it should be.

Moral arguments are the best kind of arguments. They keep us focused on right and wrong.

106 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:00:14pm

re: #101 lawhawk

OT:

US Senate passes resolution threatening to suspend aid to the Palestinian Authority if they pursue statehood at the UN in September rather than at the negotiating table pursuant to Oslo.

The resolution, introduced by Sen. Cardin (D-MD) had 88 (co)sponsors and passed with unanimous consent.

Interesting but……The Palestinians know we aren’t going to cut off aid. We said the same thing when the elected Hamas. It’s kind of pointless to make the hollow threats. They don’t work.

107 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:00:36pm

I wouldn’t say the current crop of the GOP are philosophical scholars.

108 JeffM70  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:00:54pm

re: #96 prononymous

My thought is all of them are amazingly naive when it comes to human behavior giving humans far too much credit.

109 Big Steve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:01:49pm

I now propose that we all vote on gravity.

110 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:01:56pm

re: #105 researchok

As it should be.

Moral arguments are the best kind of arguments. They keep us focused on right and wrong.

One of my favorites is the old is more moral to give your life for another’s or to preserve your own live at the expense of another’s?

111 researchok  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:01:59pm

re: #107 ggt

I wouldn’t say the current crop of the GOP are philosophical scholars.

The technical term is ‘morons’.

Some may be educated but that does not exclude stupidity.

112 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:02:13pm

re: #109 Big Steve

I now propose that we all vote on gravity.

I’m old and I’m agin’ it!!!

113 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:02:32pm

re: #99 engineer dog

Bachmann Shaky Banana Nut History Shake Declared GOP Flavor Of The Month, Superseding Rocky Starting Road Amphibian Flavor and Vanilla Mormon Vanilla Vanilla Vanilla

will next month’s flavor taste more like chocolate hate ripple or coconut revisionist nutty economic theory with extremely rich bullshit sauce?

I vote for Caribou Barbie Pout Pout Ur Ignoring Me Pout Ripple… with sprinkles.

114 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:03:58pm

re: #111 researchok

The technical term is ‘morons’.

Some may be educated but that does not exclude stupidity.

education does not make a scholar.

115 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:04:03pm

re: #111 researchok

The technical term is ‘morons’.

Some may be educated but that does not exclude stupidity.

“Didn’t you go to collage stupid?”

“Yeah, but I came out the same way!”

(Cue slide whistle)

116 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:04:40pm

re: #95 jamesfirecat

… why is this woman being held up as one of the bulwarks of the modern day GOP again?

It’s like the Bible. They get to pick and choose which parts they want to believe are true.

117 JeffM70  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:04:45pm

re: #109 Big Steve

It might get rejected, in which case we’ll all float away.

118 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:05:07pm

re: #109 Big Steve

I now propose that we all vote on gravity.

I vote “down”.

119 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:06:13pm

re: #118 Slumbering Behemoth

I vote “down”.

My joints and skin vote “up”.

Perhaps we should just vote a compromise. I think we should vote a “lower G” for the planet. It’s just too high now.

120 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:06:53pm

re: #119 ggt

My joints and skin vote “up”.

Perhaps we should just vote a compromise. I think we should vote a “lower G” for the planet. It’s just too high now.

It would do a lot to resolve America’s problem with having too many overweight people!

121 Big Steve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:07:31pm

re: #115 jamesfirecat

“Didn’t you go to collage stupid?”

actually pretty funny as “collage” as well as “college”

122 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:07:59pm

re: #120 jamesfirecat

It would do a lot to resolve America’s problem with having too many overweight people!

See, a compromise is the best solution!

123 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:09:38pm

re: #119 ggt

My joints and skin vote “up”.

Perhaps we should just vote a compromise. I think we should vote a “lower G” for the planet. It’s just too high now.

My joints, particularly my knees, seem hell bent on convincing me I’m not a teenager any more. I wish they’d cut it out.

124 Big Steve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:09:48pm

re: #122 ggt

See, a compromise is the best solution!

Until Pfizer (makers of Viagra) lobbies for an increase in gravity so as to sell more of their product.

125 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:10:57pm

re: #124 Big Steve

Until Pfizer (makers of Viagra) lobbies for an increase in gravity so as to sell more of their product.

It is ok to pay for Viagra, but not contraception or abortion.

Yes, we have some discrimination going on … .

126 makeitstop  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:11:06pm

re: #109 Big Steve

I now propose that we all vote on gravity.

Oh, the gravity of the situation…

Youtube Video
127 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:11:22pm

re: #119 ggt

My joints and skin vote “up”.

Perhaps we should just vote a compromise. I think we should vote a “lower G” for the planet. It’s just too high now.

Middle aged boobs vote against gravity!

128 engineer cat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:12:28pm

collage

it did look a little like that on days when i was taking acid

129 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:12:55pm

re: #127 Alouette

Middle aged boobs vote against gravity!

butts too!

Now will it help my aching finger joints to have a lower g? Would my typing be any more accurate.

130 Interesting Times  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:13:17pm

re: #125 ggt

It is ok to pay for Viagra, but not contraception or abortion.

Like paying for matches and lighters but not fire extinguishers…

131 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:14:17pm

re: #130 publicityStunted

Like paying for matches and lighters but not fire extinguishers…

It’s all about the penis.

132 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:14:22pm

re: #127 Alouette

Middle aged boobs vote against gravity!

Bouncing tits remain ambivalent.

133 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:14:54pm

re: #132 Slumbering Behemoth

Bouncing tits remain ambivalent.

Think about how much higher they could bounce in low g.

134 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:15:07pm

I gotta go.

Have a great afternoon all!

135 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:15:43pm

re: #131 ggt

It’s all about the penis.

But whose? With some regret, I can confidently report it’s not mine.

136 Simply Sarah  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:16:03pm

re: #119 ggt

My joints and skin vote “up”.

Perhaps we should just vote a compromise. I think we should vote a “lower G” for the planet. It’s just too high now.

Actually, they should make you vote “down”. Haven’t you seen/heard what living in orbit does to astronauts? Do you really want to add to your troubles by having your muscles atrophy?

This just shows why people need to be better informed before voting!
/

137 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:20:35pm

Update: TalkOrigins fails to “Win Ben Steins Movie”.

On behalf of the TalkOrigins Foundation, I would like to thank everyone who contributed to our campaign to bid on the motion picture “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.” Unfortunately, we were unable to bid high enough to purchase the film.

The response to this last-minute campaign was overwhelming. I had expected we might raise about $5,000. If we had raised $8,000, I would have been very pleased.

Instead, between Thursday (June 23), when we announced the campaign, and yesterday (June 27), we received 394 donations through our Paypal account, totaling $16,152.66. We also received pledges of funds from several individuals, including Professor Richard Dawkins, totaling another $32,200.00.

Combined with the funds the Foundation already had on hand, we had just over $50,000 available to bid on the film (and pay the 10% buyer’s premium). The winning bid, however, was $201,000. Because all of the bidders were anonymous, we do not know identity of the winning bidder.

I suppose we’ll find out soon enough who the winning bidder was. That is if all the footage doesn’t end up buried in the same gov’t warehouse where they hid the Ark of the Covenant./

138 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:21:56pm

How much FAIL in a single story?

Detroit

Car thief may have been shot by vehicle’s owner
Police are investigating a shooting Tuesday morning that left a suspected car thief dead. A man broke into a vehicle outside a home on Horatio on the city’s southwest side. The man drove off in the stolen car to the Livernois and Interstate 96 area, where he passed out and died, Detroit Police Sgt. Eren Stephens said. The man may have been shot by the owner of the vehicle, according to media reports.

From The Detroit News: [Link: detnews.com…]

A guy shot somebody who stole his car, but he didn’t shoot the tires to keep the thief from driving away?

And now his car is “evidence” and a dead body has been in there.

139 recusancy  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:30:53pm

A big win for the Affordable Care Act

140 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:32:45pm

re: #32 celticdragon

I keep wondering how trilobites would have tasted when fried in extra virgin olive oil and drizzled with white truffle oil and butter.

Me too, except with garlic butter.

re: #92 kirkspencer

Yes.

Rand’s philosophy assumes mercantilism is correct - that value is solely in the goods, and no value is added by labor. (That the value of labor is exactly what she’s indicating with Galt’s gulch is blind irony, but I digress.)

She also has an very weird and artificial definition of “creators”—also distinct in her novels, where the captains of industry are also the inventors/technologists. She doesn’t understand the reality of R&D as a part of business (or of production logistics), and is basically deploying the movie script narrative of the self-made entrepreneur as though it were fact.

141 makeitstop  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:34:27pm

Obama to Congress:

“You need to be here,” he told Congress. “I’ve been here. I’ve been doing Afghanistan and bin Laden and the Greek crisis and — you stay here. Let’s get it done.”

Youtube Video
142 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:38:37pm

re: #140 The Ghost of a Flea

She also has an very weird and artificial definition of “creators”—also distinct in her novels, where the captains of industry are also the inventors/technologists. She doesn’t understand the reality of R&D as a part of business (or of production logistics), and is basically deploying the movie script narrative of the self-made entrepreneur as though it were fact.

Inventors and technologists need the help of “captains of industry” because they have the funds and the resources that the creatives often lack.

Thomas Edison needed Henry Ford, especially to accomplish his goal of destroying his rival Nicola Tesla.

143 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:39:35pm

Well, this sucks - Amazon is killing their associates program in California because of the new sales tax law, as of Sept 30th.

[Link: www.boingboing.net…]

144 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:40:11pm

more teen mob attacks…it’s become the fun du jour
gonna be a long hot summer
[Link: www.philly.com…]

145 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:41:27pm

re: #143 Charles

Well, this sucks - Amazon is killing their associates program in California because of the new sales tax law, as of Sept 30th.

[Link: www.boingboing.net…]

Wait, what! That is major, major suckage. Now I have to remove all their widgets from my website.

146 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:44:47pm

re: #145 Alouette

Wait, what! That is major, major suckage. Now I have to remove all their widgets from my website.

I’m not in California, but still.

147 researchok  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:48:01pm

re: #143 Charles

Well, this sucks - Amazon is killing their associates program in California because of the new sales tax law, as of Sept 30th.

[Link: www.boingboing.net…]

So now the state of California will also lose out on the income tax of the affiliates that would have been paid by the affiliates.

148 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:49:08pm

re: #143 Charles

Welcome to the wonderful world of sales tax nexus. This all flows from the Supreme Court decision in 1983 - Quill v. North Dakota. Economic presence wasn’t sufficient; one needs a physical presence - and if you’ve got affiliates all throughout the states, that would expose these companies to sales tax collection liabilities.

In their need to get revenues, states have fixated on sales tax revenues on Internet transactions, all while ignoring that they could achieve the same kind of result (higher revenues) by better indicating and enforcing use tax collection - and they wont keep getting slapped down by courts for violating Quill (the Colorado attempt has been temporarily enjoined for example and other states are also in a holding pattern).

To further avoid the problem, Amazon and others are simply killing their affiliate programs so as to avoid the appearance of having sufficient nexus with the state under those state laws.

It’s a huge mess, and there are billions of dollars at stake for the states, and it’s a big problem for the affiliates who were making money through the program.

149 researchok  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:49:11pm

re: #147 researchok

So now the state of California will also lose out on the income tax of the affiliates that would have been paid by the affiliates.

PIMF

Never talk on tel and post at the same time.

150 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:51:08pm

re: #144 albusteve

more teen mob attacks…it’s become the fun du jour
gonna be a long hot summer
[Link: www.philly.com…]

Our culture has raised an entire generation of nihilists.

151 freetoken  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:52:53pm

re: #148 lawhawk

… all while ignoring that they could achieve the same kind of result (higher revenues) by better indicating and enforcing use tax collection - …

Ahh… but how do they do that?

152 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:54:08pm

re: #143 Charles

Well, this sucks - Amazon is killing their associates program in California because of the new sales tax law, as of Sept 30th.

[Link: www.boingboing.net…]

Damnn… Could you keep using it if LGF was hosted in another state even if you lived in CA? I guess that wouldnt be worth it.

What are the competing associates programs?

153 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:56:24pm

re: #150 Alexzander

Our culture has raised an entire generation of nihilists.

in Chicago, it’s a real problem now, not just a news story….it’s happening right inside the Loop and at the downtown beaches…tourist dollars are dropping and there is real fear that the famed, vast Taste Of Chicago party will be a target

154 recusancy  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:57:46pm

re: #150 Alexzander

Our culture has raised an entire generation of nihilists.

When did it start?

155 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:58:53pm

Bachmann again….this is funny

“PolitiFact.com, which is a Pulitzer Price winning fact-checking web site examined 26 statements that you made and they found only one to be fully true and 18 to be false,” Chetry told Bachmann. “Several of them relating to your criticism of President Obama. Did you mean to make false statements intentionally or were you just misspeaking?”

Read more: [Link: newsbusters.org…]

156 freetoken  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 12:59:19pm

Farah seems to be rather sensitive:

Birthers Sue Esquire for $120 Million Over Satirical Article

Leading birthers Joseph Farah and Jerome Corsi are suing Esquire for $120 million because the magazine published a satirical article headlined, “BREAKING! Jerome Corsi’s Birther Book Pulled From Shelves!,” Forbes’ Jeff Bercovici reports. The article—noting that President Obama had released his long-form birth certificate and thus resolved the question of where he was born—was a joke, but some readers took it at face value. Esquire clarified its humorous intentions in an update, but insisted the so-called birthers deserved ridicule. That only further enraged the birther duo, it seems. In their complaint they are seeking $100 million compensatory damages, $20 million in punitive damages, and legal costs.

Farah is the CEO of the stridently birther site WorldNetDaily, and Corsi (pictured) is the author of several books, including the poorly-timed Where’s the Birth Certificate? The Case That Barack Obama Is Not Eligible to Be President. The birthers are suing the magazine—and author Mark Warren—because they say his post hurt their book sales. (Perhaps sales were hurt because the book was released after Obama’s birth certificate?) And the update only made things worse, as it subjected Corsi and Farah to “extreme ridicule in the community where they reside and where their works are viewed and read.”

“Ridicule”? Really? Why would anyone want to ridicule WND?

157 Simply Sarah  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:00:20pm

re: #148 lawhawk

While I agree that there are certainly some legal questions involved here, I’m also rather sympathetic to California in this instance and I think federal regulations around this need to be modified to fit with modern realities. I, personally, don’t think it makes much sense at all for a product that would be taxed by the vendor if purchased locally to not be taxed by the vendor if purchased on the Internet (Unless there is a presence involved but even that often isn’t the case). This is becoming an increasingly large drain on states’ finances and I don’t think it can be ignored. Doing so will just mean more cuts to services and higher taxes and fees in other areas.

158 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:01:23pm

re: #154 recusancy

When did it start?

Around the same time Def Leppard released Pyromania.
/

159 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:02:33pm

re: #158 Slumbering Behemoth

Around the same time Def Leppard released Pyromania.
/

maybe earlier…the Beatles Twist And shout

160 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:04:03pm

re: #154 recusancy

When did it start?

The kind of ugly consumer nihilism I’m speaking off took off after WWII.
The steady replacement of real community, real family structure and time, real religious environments etc, with their toxic mimics has in my opinion only reached a crisis in the last 40 years.

Not that you need to be a member of a religion, but you shouldn’t fill that void with excitement over a hockey team or something similar.

This is essentially the crisis of post modernism that Nietzsche warned us of over 120 years ago. We’re still getting there, although the implications are playing out in profound ways (see terrorism, neoconservatism and the noble lie, etc)>

161 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:05:20pm

re: #155 albusteve

Bachmann again…this is funny

“PolitiFact.com, which is a Pulitzer Price winning fact-checking web site examined 26 statements that you made and they found only one to be fully true and 18 to be false,” Chetry told Bachmann. “Several of them relating to your criticism of President Obama. Did you mean to make false statements intentionally or were you just misspeaking?”

Read more: [Link: newsbusters.org…]


Hmmm…the didn’t post the video of her response. Bummer.

162 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:05:47pm

re: #159 albusteve

maybe earlier…the Beatles Twist And shout

It was that bastard Mozart, with all his perverted requiems and shit, who is responsible for the decline of western civilization. Decline, I say!

163 Spocomptonite  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:06:03pm

I wouldn’t go as far to say T-paw and others are lying. I think it’s either ignorant disbelief or stubborn self-assuredness.
Ignorant Disbelief is kind of a base stage, where they don’t understand the science of climate change, or simply aren’t aware of any of it, but can’t believe that us little humans can have an effect on the big ol’ climate of the entire planet. They don’t know/aren’t aware of how many people there really are, how carefully balanced climate and ecosystems really are, and thus can’t fathom the magnitude of effect resulting from us.
Stubborn Self-Assuredness builds upon that, but is far worse a view. It’s not that they can’t understand the science, it’s that they can’t admit that they’re wrong. They can’t admit that their view is wrong, and/or they can’t admit that what industrialized civilization has been/is doing is wrong and having a detrimental effect on planet earth. It doesn’t matter why they don’t accept it (“God’s Plan”, religious fate, nefarious NWO conspiracy, environmentalist plot to take over the world, etc etc), it’s ultimately a psychological barrier, not a logical one, preventing them from coming to terms with reality. Thus they gain information about the issue not based on objective data and reliable sources, but based upon how well it conforms with their preconceived notions. They will listen to their neighbor or internet chat rooms and see them as right but discount the world of Nobel laureates and scientific experts as wrong.

Ignorant Denial is a lot easier to deal with. These deniers are the good kind, if one can go so far as to say that, because all it takes to change their minds is the simple presentation of evidence and a good talking-to to refute their beliefs. I’ve done this with some members of my family, and while they used to be deniers, they weren’t lying; they just didn’t know any better.
The stubborn kind are really hard to get through to, if at all. To overcome their views, evidence won’t work; they first have to learn how to “be wrong” and change their minds. And while I wouldn’t say that they are lying either, blind irrational conviction is at least as bad, if not worse.

Pawlenty, and especially Bachmann/Palin, seem to be of the Stubborn Self-Assured group. While you may argue that as politicians, they are catering to their base, the numerous examples of both not being able to publicly admit they are wrong and instead trying to create pretzel-logic way in which they were originally right has me leaning to SSA.

164 freetoken  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:06:22pm

re: #161 Killgore Trout

Because that site is only concerned with reinforcing their motto of exposing liberal bias, ahem….

165 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:06:26pm

” I’m a substantive, serious person ”
heh

166 freetoken  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:07:22pm

re: #163 Spocomptonite

Then why did Pawlenty once upon a time agree with the need to curb AGW by supporting mitigating actions, while in MN?

167 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:07:34pm

re: #162 Slumbering Behemoth

It was that bastard Mozart, with all his perverted requiems and shit, who is responsible for the decline of western civilization. Decline, I say!

Started when he exposed Alegri’s Miserere to the unwashed.

168 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:08:18pm

re: #161 Killgore Trout

Hmmm…the didn’t post the video of her response. Bummer.

Newsbusters?…anyway, it looks like Bachmann may be facing a new paradigm for her….justifying her positions

169 Spocomptonite  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:10:39pm

re: #166 freetoken

Then why did Pawlenty once upon a time agree with the need to curb AGW by supporting mitigating actions, while in MN?

Really? Oops, I think I was confusing him with Rick Perry’s take on climate change. That guy can’t accept it. My bad, everyone.

170 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:11:03pm

re: #54 ggt

Geez, I forget how old I am half the time.

I keep trying. Then I meet someone old enough to have a college degree who’s never heard of Jim Morrison or Scooby Doo.

171 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:11:17pm

re: #157 Simply Sarah

This isn’t a matter of federal regulation or statute, but Supreme Court analysis under the Commerce Clause and Due Process Clause. These state laws haven’t passed muster because they violate the analysis under Quill - requiring nexus with a state in order to tax that business.

One solution would be for a federal sales tax, which is then distributed to the states in the proportion of the sales location where the business was located (or according to the Multistate Tax Commission model sourcing guidelines for how to determine where a transaction occurred depending on the circumstances).

Another would be for the Supreme Court to overturn Quill and institute a new standard for sales tax nexus.

Both aren’t likely for the foreseeable future. So, the states are looking at trying to get it done within those constraints.

172 freetoken  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:13:26pm

re: #169 Spocomptonite

Pawlenty, like Romney, was forced to live in the real world while governor. Both made careful but not unreasonable decisions and compromises with their dominantly Democratic party or centrist/more liberal legislatures. At one time Pawlenty was onboard Minnesota efforts to address climate change.

Perry lives in his own world, one which I suspect can’t exist outside of the biome of Texas.

173 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:14:12pm

nice wrap-up of the Inter Con siege….11 dead civilians, 8 dead shooters[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk…]

174 kirkspencer  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:14:29pm

re: #157 Simply Sarah

While I agree that there are certainly some legal questions involved here, I’m also rather sympathetic to California in this instance and I think federal regulations around this need to be modified to fit with modern realities. I, personally, don’t think it makes much sense at all for a product that would be taxed by the vendor if purchased locally to not be taxed by the vendor if purchased on the Internet (Unless there is a presence involved but even that often isn’t the case). This is becoming an increasingly large drain on states’ finances and I don’t think it can be ignored. Doing so will just mean more cuts to services and higher taxes and fees in other areas.

Actually, Quill said it was up to Congress to decide how state sales taxes were to apply as it was a clear purpose of the Commerce clause. Quill was in 1987. The fact we’re still fighting this is indicative of how complex the issue is when really investigated.

It’s not easy. As one point requiring an out-of-state entity to maintain a tax registry is MORE burdensome, and thus interferes with interstate trade. (The reason for the commerce clause in the first place.)

175 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:17:39pm

Tom Petty Demands Michele Bachmann
Stop Playing His Song

Republican candidates, and it’s one of the things that genuinely sucks for them. They can never use the easygoing, overplayed songs that they enjoy on FM radio, and they learn that their favorite artists despise them.

bwahaha!….
snort

[Link: gawker.com…]

176 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:17:41pm

Where ze hell are all the new lizards?
Was there some kind of huge TV show on or something at the same time as the open registration thread?

177 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:19:16pm

re: #174 kirkspencer

Other than the fact that Quill was decided in 1992, your analysis is correct - the regulatory burden of complying with states that seek sales tax for something less than minimum contacts/nexus is precisely the kind of burdens that the Commerce Clause is designed to prevent - protecting the free flow of goods and services in interstate commerce.

178 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:19:36pm

re: #172 freetoken

Perry lives in his own world, one which I suspect can’t exist outside of the biome of Texas.

I swear, I suspect some of you Lizards are secretly shills for the Merriam-Webster Lobby.
/

179 blueraven  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:20:42pm

re: #159 albusteve

maybe earlier…the Beatles Twist And shout

Earlier…The Wild One

Youtube Video
180 kirkspencer  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:23:10pm

re: #177 lawhawk

Other than the fact that Quill was decided in 1992, your analysis is correct - the regulatory burden of complying with states that seek sales tax for something less than minimum contacts/nexus is precisely the kind of burdens that the Commerce Clause is designed to prevent - protecting the free flow of goods and services in interstate commerce.

Thanks for the catch. I was looking at the opinion and got confused — 1987 is when North Dakota passed the law over which this was fought. mea culpa.

link, for those who want it: [Link: www.law.cornell.edu…]

181 LWNJ  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:23:18pm

re: #176 Alexzander

Where ze hell are all the new lizards?
Was there some kind of huge TV show on or something at the same time as the open registration thread?

Maybe it’s just as well… the last time Charles opened registration, he got me, after all.

/

182 Simply Sarah  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:24:18pm

re: #171 lawhawk

I apologize, as I was unclear. Yes, I’m aware that existing federal statutes aren’t the barrier here. What I had meant was something along the lines of the first solution you listed, since it seems rather clear, to me at least, that the Commerce Clause would allow for Congress to put some sort of system into place.

I’m also not *entirely* convinced the Quill reasoning is quite as rock-solid as it might seem at first glance. I think that as the online marketplace expands, the question of what truly qualifies as a nexus or such for the purpose of allowing sales taxes to be imposed may be re-evaluated. Granted, I admit that’s a somewhat dangerous path to stride.

183 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:25:37pm

re: #162 Slumbering Behemoth

It was that bastard Mozart, with all his perverted requiems and shit, who is responsible for the decline of western civilization. Decline, I say!

Indeed.

Leck mir den Arsch fein recht schön sauber (English: Lick my ass right well and clean) is a canon for three voices in B-flat major, K. 233/382d, long thought to have been composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart during 1782 in Vienna.

184 LWNJ  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:27:59pm

re: #160 Alexzander

The kind of ugly consumer nihilism I’m speaking off took off after WWII.
The steady replacement of real community, real family structure and time, real religious environments etc, with their toxic mimics has in my opinion only reached a crisis in the last 40 years.

Not that you need to be a member of a religion, but you shouldn’t fill that void with excitement over a hockey team or something similar.

This is essentially the crisis of post modernism that Nietzsche warned us of over 120 years ago. We’re still getting there, although the implications are playing out in profound ways (see terrorism, neoconservatism and the noble lie, etc)>

You don’t need to be postmodern. The Nika (chariot team) riots happened in 532 (these are the earliest I’ve heard of), and there have been other “outbreaks” since. It would be nice if someon could figure out how to stop them.

185 kirkspencer  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:28:35pm

As a by the way on the tax thing, there’s actually federal action in progress: the streamlined sales tax project (aka SSTP at [Link: www.streamlinedsalestax.org…] ). The goal is a uniform sales tax - not percentage rate, but in all other aspects - to be combined with a more-or-less central processing site. It’s hoped that this will meet the Quill points and intents that allow cross state sales tax with low burdens.

186 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:29:46pm

remember the pic from yesterday of the Philly police car with a AR-15 sitting unattended on the trunk?…well, the cop came back and drove away while it was laying there….doh!

[Link: gawker.com…]

187 lanaty  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:30:58pm

Dear GOP/Tea Party,

As the driving force of anti-science nonsense in this country, you are not allowed to invoke “science” to support your claims. Increase funding for the sciences first, maybe get a B.S. in something other than BS, and then you can claim to interpret scientific research.

Signed,
Someone who loves science

P.S. The plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’.
P.P.S. [Link: xkcd.com…]

188 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:32:15pm

re: #186 albusteve

remember the pic from yesterday of the Philly police car with a AR-15 sitting unattended on the trunk?…well, the cop came back and drove away while it was laying there…doh!

[Link: gawker.com…]

Wrong linky and I think it was Seattle.

189 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:32:28pm

re: #184 C1nnabar

You don’t need to be postmodern. The Nika (chariot team) riots happened in 532 (these are the earliest I’ve heard of), and there have been other “outbreaks” since. It would be nice if someon could figure out how to stop them.

the mobs pop up and are gone after the fact…LE can not prevent them

190 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:33:07pm

re: #188 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wrong linky and I think it was Seattle.

correctomundo
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk…]

191 kirkspencer  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:34:58pm

re: #187 lanaty

Dear GOP/Tea Party,

As the driving force of anti-science nonsense in this country, you are not allowed to invoke “science” to support your claims. Increase funding for the sciences first, maybe get a B.S. in something other than BS, and then you can claim to interpret scientific research.

Signed,
Someone who loves science

P.S. The plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’.
P.P.S. [Link: xkcd.com…]

Actually, this (bolded) is false though the intent is correct. It’s always caused me to twitch and I think folk here will actually understand why. Individual datum are anecdotes.

The problem with anecdotes is that they’re rarely randomly selected, and usually their sample size is far too small.

It’s not that they’re not data, it’s that they’re not ENOUGH data.

192 Spocomptonite  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:37:13pm

re: #172 freetoken

Pawlenty, like Romney, was forced to live in the real world while governor. Both made careful but not unreasonable decisions and compromises with their dominantly Democratic party or centrist/more liberal legislatures. At one time Pawlenty was onboard Minnesota efforts to address climate change.

Perry lives in his own world, one which I suspect can’t exist outside of the biome of Texas.

Completely agree. Again, sorry for confusing Pawlenty’s views with Perry’s. It’s hard to keep track of how wrong everyone else is and not get it wrong myself.

193 lanaty  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:37:20pm

re: #191 kirkspencer

Actually, this (bolded) is false though the intent is correct. It’s always caused me to twitch and I think folk here will actually understand why. Individual datum are anecdotes.

The problem with anecdotes is that they’re rarely randomly selected, and usually their sample size is far too small.

It’s not that they’re not data, it’s that they’re not ENOUGH data.

They’re not randomly selected, they’re not from a double-blind study, etc. The way data is obtained is just as important as the amount.

194 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:38:11pm

WASHINGTON — Something astonishing happened in New Jersey last week. A majority Democratic legislature and a Republican governor agreed on a measure that will cut benefits for the state’s 750,000 employees and retirees.

seems easy enough

[Link: www.dglobe.com…]

195 groovimus  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:38:29pm

WHY THE MAJORITY IN THIS COUNTRY NO LONGER BELIEVE IN AGW

Movement afoot among PhD scientists dissenting on AGW and have more than 1000 signatures:
[Link: www.climatechangedispatch.com…]

Famous physicist Fred Singer says 40% of scientists are skeptics of AGW:
[Link: www.1913intel.com…]

Here’s what one of them says about his change of heart. Please notice that the American Physical Society has blocked debate (stifled dissent) ON THIS when there are enough signatures to force a debate, and so this member resigned his membership:
[Link: www.theregister.co.uk…]

Please see how the IPCC graphs of temperature predictions have compared to satellite data:

[Link: blogs.news.com.au…]

196 Simply Sarah  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:40:20pm

re: #185 kirkspencer

As a by the way on the tax thing, there’s actually federal action in progress: the streamlined sales tax project (aka SSTP at [Link: www.streamlinedsalestax.org…] ). The goal is a uniform sales tax - not percentage rate, but in all other aspects - to be combined with a more-or-less central processing site. It’s hoped that this will meet the Quill points and intents that allow cross state sales tax with low burdens.

Ah yes, I had forgotten about that. I’m not entirely sure I agree with all the specifics of it, but I think I support the general idea.

197 Spocomptonite  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:42:27pm

re: #195 groovimus

WHY THE MAJORITY IN THIS COUNTRY NO LONGER BELIEVE IN AGW

Movement afoot among PhD scientists dissenting on AGW and have more than 1000 signatures:
[Link: www.climatechangedispatch.com…]

Famous physicist Fred Singer says 40% of scientists are skeptics of AGW:
[Link: www.1913intel.com…]

Here’s what one of them says about his change of heart. Please notice that the American Physical Society has blocked debate (stifled dissent) ON THIS when there are enough signatures to force a debate, and so this member resigned his membership:
[Link: www.theregister.co.uk…]

Please see how the IPCC graphs of temperature predictions have compared to satellite data:

[Link: blogs.news.com.au…]
BLOGS. That’s why.

198 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:42:27pm

re: #195 groovimus

WHY THE MAJORITY IN THIS COUNTRY NO LONGER BELIEVE IN AGW

Movement afoot among PhD scientists dissenting on AGW and have more than 1000 signatures:
[Link: www.climatechangedispatch.com…]

Famous physicist Fred Singer says 40% of scientists are skeptics of AGW:
[Link: www.1913intel.com…]

Here’s what one of them says about his change of heart. Please notice that the American Physical Society has blocked debate (stifled dissent) ON THIS when there are enough signatures to force a debate, and so this member resigned his membership:
[Link: www.theregister.co.uk…]

Please see how the IPCC graphs of temperature predictions have compared to satellite data:

[Link: blogs.news.com.au…]

Leaving aside the majority of the country, do you believe in AGW or not?

199 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:42:39pm

re: #195 groovimus

I’d need proof that the majority of Americans ever did accept AGW as opposed to your headline…the immediate crisis is energy use, deal with that and presto!…the rest takes care of itself….personally I lost interest in the debate a long time ago

200 Interesting Times  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:43:55pm

re: #198 jamesfirecat

Leaving aside the majority of the country, do you believe in AGW or not?

Obviously not, since all the n00b (sock?) has done is regurgitate old, stale denialist copypasta.

201 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:44:03pm

re: #195 groovimus

Danger Will Robinson, denier on the loose! Prepare Science! They can’t stand Science!

202 lawhawk  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:44:51pm

re: #185 kirkspencer

The SSTP is a voluntary state project to harmonize sales and use tax definitions and make collection easier for retailers and states. It isn’t a federal action. It seeks uniform terms, but not tax rates (states and localities are still free to impose rates at whatever they deem, but they have to do so in a way that is regular - quarterly with sufficient notice, etc., and have to publish and make the rates available in a manner that various sales tax certified service providers can process and maintain.

203 Hawaii69  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:45:16pm

Once people start talking about “Bad Science”, you know they’re completely clueless about what the research involves.

Though I think there are legitimate uses for the phrases “bad science” and junk science”, 99.9% of the time it is in used in place of “I don’t agree with that , so I refuse to even consider that it is legit”

204 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:47:34pm

Now, now… let’s give the new kid some time to make his case before we tear it to shreds.

/or not

205 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:49:21pm

re: #204 Slumbering Behemoth

Now, now… let’s give the new kid some time to make his case before we tear it to shreds.

/or not

agreed…the poodles are quick to pack up

206 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:54:00pm

According to the McClatchy-Marist poll, 61% of voters disapprove of how the president is handling the deficit, while only 31% approve; 8% are unsure.

BO is gonna be hit by a monumental shit storm if something doesn’t change…thus his campaigning early, donations are down and his far left are really getting disgusted

[Link: content.usatoday.com…]

207 kirkspencer  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:54:30pm

re: #202 lawhawk

The SSTP is a voluntary state project to harmonize sales and use tax definitions and make collection easier for retailers and states. It isn’t a federal action. It seeks uniform terms, but not tax rates (states and localities are still free to impose rates at whatever they deem, but they have to do so in a way that is regular - quarterly with sufficient notice, etc., and have to publish and make the rates available in a manner that various sales tax certified service providers can process and maintain.

re the fed vs state - huh, I thought it was federally underwritten. Went back and checked and you’re right, formed by the NGA and NCSL.

as to the rest, yep. which is basically what I said (but I can see how you thought I was saying it was a federal tax. Not intended, but… eh.)

208 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:54:38pm

re: #205 albusteve

Oh, I can be guilty of it as well. But for some reason I am feeling charitable today.

Not that I am telling anyone what to do, mind you.

209 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:56:32pm

re: #208 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh, I can be guilty of it as well. But for some reason I am feeling charitable today.

Not that I am telling anyone what to do, mind you.

I can feel the love

210 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:57:47pm

re: #206 albusteve

According to the McClatchy-Marist poll, 61% of voters disapprove of how the president is handling the deficit, while only 31% approve; 8% are unsure.

BO is gonna be hit by a monumental shit storm if something doesn’t change…thus his campaigning early, donations are down and his far left are really getting disgusted

[Link: content.usatoday.com…]

Of all the major candidates who would you like to see win (of either party)?

211 kirkspencer  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:58:03pm

re: #206 albusteve

According to the McClatchy-Marist poll, 61% of voters disapprove of how the president is handling the deficit, while only 31% approve; 8% are unsure.

BO is gonna be hit by a monumental shit storm if something doesn’t change…thus his campaigning early, donations are down and his far left are really getting disgusted

[Link: content.usatoday.com…]

The economy is probably going to turn down a bit, maybe more than a bit. The actions to make it better are being blocked by several Republicans.

If it recovers, Obama gets re-elected. If it doesn’t recover, his re-election depends on whether the blame for the downturn gets attached to Republicans or him. Generally it goes to the President, but I will point out what happened the last time the Republicans shut things down as an example of why it’s not a guarantee.

212 BongCrodny  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:01:57pm

re: #195 groovimus


[Link: www.1913intel.com…]


LOL. The featured articles at this website are “Review: Costco’s Emergency Food Shortage,” “Prefabricated Fallout Shelters,” and “25+ Signs that Point to Nuclear War.”

That’s not very nice, using a crazy person’s web site to bolster your argument.

213 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:04:21pm

re: #209 albusteve

I can feel the love

I felt it.

214 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:04:41pm

re: #143 Charles

Well, this sucks - Amazon is killing their associates program in California because of the new sales tax law, as of Sept 30th.

[Link: www.boingboing.net…]

I don’t understand this. Is it not up to the consumer to decide if they want to buy something at a given price that includes a sales tax?

Now Amazon has to collect a sales tax, just like most retailers. So what?

215 kirkspencer  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:13:52pm

re: #214 Naso Tang

I don’t understand this. Is it not up to the consumer to decide if they want to buy something at a given price that includes a sales tax?

Now Amazon has to collect a sales tax, just like most retailers. So what?

Here’s the burden. They have to track the buyer’s location. They have to maintain tax records in accordance with the buyer’s location and send both monies and records to the buyer’s location’s tax authority on the schedule that authority requires. In the event of audit and other review they must transport the appropriate records to a state designated location instead of the state’s officials coming on-site.

Now is any of that a big deal? Depends on who you ask. For me, keeping track of one state’s tax records is painful enough. Keeping things straight between multiple states, especially when I’m not in those states, is a really big deal.

Note, please, that Amazon is probably a bad example. After all, they’re large enough to afford employees dedicated to this issue. Consider, however, that if you’re an etsy dealer this could wind up mattering to you as well.

216 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:14:05pm

re: #210 Alexzander

Of all the major candidates who would you like to see win (of either party)?

I’d have to say BO, even tho he’s not been much of a leader….then again the GOP cannot be taken seriously

217 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:16:29pm

Republicans turning red states to blue….
Poll: Perry Trails Obama In Texas

the poll shows Perry trailing President Obama in heavily Republican Texas, which last voted Democratic for president in 1976, when Jimmy Carter was the South’s favorite son. Obama leads 47%-45%, even though Obama’s net approval rating is underwater at 42%-55%. Of course, this could potentially change if Perry actually became the nominee in a real election, but it’s not a good starting point.

The poll found Perry’s approval rating at only 43%, with 52% disapproval. In addition, the poll asked simply: “Do you think Rick Perry should run for president next year, or not?” The result was only 33% saying he should run, to 59% saying he should not.

218 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:17:23pm

re: #216 albusteve

I’d have to say BO, even tho he’s not been much of a leader…then again the GOP cannot be taken seriously

He could definitely come out a little stronger as a leader, I agree. But one thing he has done positively during his first term is come out as an adult. This is something that is getting rarer and rarer in national politics. I know we all joke about it but the GOP field really is an embarrassing collection of immaturity.

219 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:19:03pm

A new poll out shows that Palin would lose to Obama by 6 points —— in Alaska!!

[Link: t.co…]

220 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:24:07pm

I checked with crazy pam to see if she’s going to acknowledge the recent increasing Nazification of the EDL, She has’t, but she did post this…..


The Freedom From Jihad Flotilla will offer aid to persecuted Christians, Hindus, and other non-Muslims, and call upon the international community to recognize Muslim persecution of non-Muslims as a violation of international law, to be punished with strict economic sanctions and other appropriate action.

The first stop will be Greece, in recognition of the Greek victims of jihad in Anatolia for well over a thousand years. The Freedom From Jihad Flotilla will then sail along the Turkish coast, where speakers will pay homage to the millions of victims of the Armenian and Greek genocides in Turkey.

The next stop will be Egypt. All Coptic Christians seeking to escape Islamic oppression will be saved. Subsequent stops will include Nigeria, Pakistan, Indonesia, and other areas where Christians are facing persecution from Muslims. The freedom flotilla will also include stops in Bangladesh, for Hindus facing Muslim persecution, and Thailand, for Buddhists facing the same persecution.


Is this a parody or is she really going to charter a ship and sail around the world?

221 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:25:44pm

re: #216 albusteve

I’d have to say BO, even tho he’s not been much of a leader…then again the GOP cannot be taken seriously

He’s too busy governing.

222 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:26:46pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

The next stop will be Egypt. All Coptic Christians seeking to escape Islamic oppression will be saved.

She’s going to fill her boat with refugees? Or conquer Egypt? Or both?

223 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:27:21pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

I checked with crazy pam to see if she’s going to acknowledge the recent increasing Nazification of the EDL, She has’t, but she did post this…


Is this a parody or is she really going to charter a ship and sail around the world?

why does she hate land locked persecutees?

224 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:27:32pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

I checked with crazy pam

Why torture yourself
Why not just stick needles into your irises?

225 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:27:58pm

re: #219 Alexzander

A new poll out shows that Palin would lose to Obama by 6 points —- in Alaska!!

[Link: t.co…]

I think there’s a pretty strong possibility this next election is going to be a historic landslide. When deep red states like Texas and Alaska are up for grabs it’s a pretty serious situation.

226 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:28:08pm

re: #221 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

He’s too busy governing.lfing

ftfy

227 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:29:51pm

re: #222 wrenchwench

She’s going to fill her boat with refugees? Or conquer Egypt? Or both?

I’m not sure. Even her readers seem confused, they’re ignoring the flotilla thing. I don’t think they can figure it out either.

228 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:29:54pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

The Freedom From Jihad Flotilla will offer aid and cocktails at 7 on the Lido Deck

229 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:31:01pm

re: #226 sattv4u2

ftfy

57 states arugula throws like a girl mommy jeans.

230 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:31:15pm

re: #228 sattv4u2

The Freedom From Jihad Flotilla will offer aid and cocktails at 7 AM on the Lido Deck

231 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:31:27pm

re: #225 Killgore Trout

I think there’s a pretty strong possibility this next election is going to be a historic landslide. When deep red states like Texas and Alaska are up for grabs it’s a pretty serious situation.

if BO wins a in a landslide, it will indeed be historic….I consider BO second rate so far, but the GOP can’t even make the scale…what a whacky situation

232 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:32:41pm

re: #219 Alexzander

re: #225 Killgore Trout

OR

he latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds a generic Republican candidate earns support from 46% of Likely U.S. Voters, while the president picks up 42% of the vote.

Yes,, yes,, I know
Rasmussen ,, kill the messenger,,, blah blah

Thats why I hate polls,, ANY of them

The pollster can make the numbers dance any way they want them too

233 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:32:56pm

re: #227 Killgore Trout

I’m not sure. Even her readers seem confused, they’re ignoring the flotilla thing. I don’t think they can figure it out either.

look close…each of those countries she listed has large gin distilleries

234 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:35:10pm

re: #195 groovimus

Is that all you got? One hit wonder?

235 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:35:48pm

WE’RE NUMBER 9
WE’RE NUMBER 9
WE’RE NUMBER 9!!

[Link: travel.yahoo.com…]

236 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:36:01pm

re: #215 kirkspencer

No doubt tax collection is an overhead, but there is nothing new there, and with online sales everything is automated. Are they saying they can’t figure out how to write the programs? //

237 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:36:52pm

Pot legalizing legislation introduced in congress
Measure would decriminalize marijuana smoking for adults

The ‘Ending Federal Marijuana Prohibition Act’ seeks to federally deregulate the personal possession and use of marijuana by adults. It marks the first time that members of Congress have introduced legislation to eliminate the federal criminalization of marijuana since the passage of the Marihuana Tax Act of 1937.

FREE THE WEED!

[Link: plymouthdailynews.com…]

238 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:39:24pm

He’s like Michele Bachmann without the attention.

239 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:39:36pm

re: #225 Killgore Trout

I think there’s a pretty strong possibility this next election is going to be a historic landslide. When deep red states like Texas and Alaska are up for grabs it’s a pretty serious situation.

If that happens what kind of reaction will we see on behalf of the right?

I can honestly imagine it being dangerous - even for republicans. Many party faithful will be extremely angry that their own party screwed up enough to loose to a man they were told was so incredibly incompetent for 4 or 5 years.

240 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:40:14pm

Looks like groovimus shot his wad with all his blog links showing that science is just a matter of collecting anecdotal comments and signing petitions. The hell with studies and peer review.

241 blueraven  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:40:15pm

re: #229 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

57 states arugula throws like a girl mommy jeans.

terrorist killer

242 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:40:55pm

and now for something completely different…

Why Do Fingers Wrinkle When They Get Wet?

We know you’ve asked yourself that question in the headline and common knowledge dictates that the reason your fingers look pruney when you’re in water for too long is that the skin absorbs water.

Well, Mark Changizi, an evolutionary neurobiologist at 2AI Labs in Boise, Idaho, thinks he has a better theory. Nature reports on the study, which was published in the journal Brain, Behavior and Evolution:

Changizi thinks that the wrinkles act like rain treads on [tires]. They create channels that allow water to drain away as we press our fingertips on to wet surfaces. This allows the fingers to make greater contact with a wet surface, giving them a better grip.

Scientists have known since the mid-1930s that water wrinkles do not form if the nerves in a finger are severed, implying that they are controlled by the nervous system.

“I stumbled upon these nearly century-old papers and they immediately suggested to me that pruney fingers are functional,” says Changizi. “I discussed the mystery with my student Romann Weber, who said, ‘Could they be rain treads?’ ‘Brilliant!’ was my reply.”

[Link: www.npr.org…]

243 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:42:51pm

re: #242 wlewisiii

and now for something completely different…

Why Do Fingers Wrinkle When They Get Wet?

[Link: www.npr.org…]

I WAS IN THE POOL
I WAS IN THE POOL

(channeling George Costanza)

244 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:42:54pm

re: #241 blueraven

terrorist killer

by proxy

245 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:43:09pm

re: #240 Naso Tang

Looks like groovimus shot his wad with all his blog links showing that science is just a matter of collecting anecdotal comments and signing petitions. The hell with studies and peer review.

Kinda sad he/she bothered to register an account just for that one post.
As if there is a grand global warming conspiracy and that was his one chance to show us the light.

He/she didn’t even bother dialoguing with anyone.

246 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:43:35pm

re: #239 Alexzander

If that happens what kind of reaction will we see on behalf of the right?

I can honestly imagine it being dangerous - even for republicans. Many party faithful will be extremely angry that their own party screwed up enough to loose to a man they were told was so incredibly incompetent for 4 or 5 years.

Hopefully it will wake up the wingnuts and we’ll see a significant overhaul and reboot of American conservatism. I’m sure party insiders are sitting on piles of good ideas (and some not so good ideas) for a new direction. They’re just waiting for this Tea Party nonsense to blow over.

247 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:45:44pm

re: #245 Alexzander

Kinda sad he/she bothered to register an account just for that one post.
As if there is a grand global warming conspiracy and that was his one chance to show us the light.

He/she didn’t even bother dialoguing with anyone.

you can’t have your cake and eat it too

248 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:46:27pm

re: #246 Killgore Trout

I’m sure party insiders are sitting on piles of good ideas (and some not so good ideas) for a new direction. They’re just waiting for this Tea Party nonsense to blow over.

I’m not sure whether that much optimism is healthy …

249 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:46:36pm

re: #239 Alexzander

Many party faithful will be extremely angry that their own party screwed up enough to loose to a man they were told was so incredibly incompetent for 4 or 5 years.
True

Amazing that after 4 years Kerry couldn’t be that “dummy” Bush!!

oh ,,wait ,,, thats not who you’re talking about!

Wow ,, History really DOES repeat!

250 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:47:28pm

re: #245 Alexzander

Kinda sad he/she bothered to register an account just for that one post.
As if there is a grand global warming conspiracy and that was his one chance to show us the light.

He/she didn’t even bother dialoguing with anyone.

he/she isn;t blocked, so perhaps he/she will reappear

251 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:48:30pm

re: #249 sattv4u2


Many party faithful will be extremely angry that their own party screwed up enough to loose to a man they were told was so incredibly incompetent for 4 or 5 years.
True

Amazing that after 4 years Kerry couldn’t be that “dummy” Bush!!

oh ,,wait ,,, thats not who you’re talking about!

Wow ,, History really DOES repeat!

Bush was/is a dummy, Kerry was a horrible candidate/choice for the dems period.

252 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:50:10pm

re: #251 dreggas

Bush was/is a dummy, Kerry was a horrible candidate/choice for the dems period.

Yeah ,,, the dems should have had Edwards at the top spot


oh ,, wair ,,
shit!

253 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:50:15pm

President Obama to Hold News Conference Wednesday
[Link: politics.blogs.foxnews.com…]

more hope and change?…do you think he should educate the voters why not raising the debt ceiling is dangerous?….what will he say to soften the blow for a stalled economy, the headwinds are stronger than predicted?…will he explain his absence from budget talks is a form of new leadership?

254 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:50:38pm

Heh…we’re off-shoring a bunch of engineers and one of the dev managers and I went to our CFO and got four head-count approved - locally. I don’t mind getting off-shore help, but I need some in-house people I can work with directly and who can help one of my favorite lead engineers…

255 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:50:42pm

re: #252 sattv4u2

Yeah ,,, the dems should have had Edwards at the top spot

oh ,, wair T,,
shit!

256 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:51:11pm

re: #252 sattv4u2

actually No, not edwards either. There really weren’t that many good choices in the primaries, I was a clark supporter myself.

257 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:51:26pm

re: #246 Killgore Trout

Hopefully it will wake up the wingnuts and we’ll see a significant overhaul and reboot of American conservatism. I’m sure party insiders are sitting on piles of good ideas (and some not so good ideas) for a new direction. They’re just waiting for this Tea Party nonsense to blow over.

I’ve been thinking and hoping the same thing.

258 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:51:50pm

re: #237 albusteve

RP + BF= lol

259 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:52:00pm

re: #254 darthstar

Heh…we’re off-shoring a bunch of engineers and one of the dev managers and I went to our CFO and got four head-count approved - locally. I don’t mind getting off-shore help, but I need some in-house people I can work with directly and who can help one of my favorite lead engineers…

so what’s for lunch?

260 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:52:36pm

re: #254 darthstar

Heh…we’re off-shoring a bunch of engineers and one of the dev managers and I went to our CFO and got four head-count approved - locally. I don’t mind getting off-shore help, but I need some in-house people I can work with directly and who can help one of my favorite lead engineers…

I should have said “one of the dev managers wants everyone we hire to be off-shore”…but I went and got four local people approved (contractors, but they’re easier to hire as I can just have the agency send me people until someone knows how to tie their own shoes). And I got my manager to guarantee that I get to keep these additional people (and the dev manager can find his own reqs)… Fuck that feels good.

261 engineer cat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:52:50pm

Sarah Palin Blasts Hollywood Stars as ‘Full of Hate’ at Movie Premiere

NOTICE: conservatives are merely making accurate observations about people who are immoral and/or un-american, so it would be hateful to describe what they do as “hate”

262 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:53:06pm

re: #258 Amory Blaine

RP + BF= lol

Laurel and Hardy?

263 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:53:12pm

re: #259 albusteve

so what’s for lunch?

Scotch!

264 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:53:42pm

re: #249 sattv4u2


Many party faithful will be extremely angry that their own party screwed up enough to loose to a man they were told was so incredibly incompetent for 4 or 5 years.
True

Amazing that after 4 years Kerry couldn’t be that “dummy” Bush!!

oh ,,wait ,,, thats not who you’re talking about!

Wow ,, History really DOES repeat!

I had that in mind as I was writing that post. I was remembering that magazine or newspaper that said “How Can X People Be So Dumb” with X being the number of people that voted for Bush. We will probably see something similar, albeit with a slightly more intense level of rage rather than rejected apathy.

265 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:53:53pm

re: #263 darthstar

Scotch!

Duct!

266 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:54:45pm

re: #261 engineer dog

Sarah Palin Blasts Hollywood Stars as ‘Full of Hate’ at Movie Premiere


Only people who are full of hate can say that others are full of hate. I love Sarah Palin because she keeps me entertained…in that “Ooh, what kind of road-kill was that?” way…

267 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:56:10pm

re: #264 Alexzander

rather than rejected apathy.

Those that hated Bush were far from “apathetic”

268 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:57:19pm

re: #263 darthstar

Scotch!

re: #266 darthstar

what kind of road-kill was that
Road kill,, Scotch ,,, why yes,, it IS lunch !!

269 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:57:26pm

re: #266 darthstar

Only people who are full of hate can say that others are full of hate. I love Sarah Palin because she keeps me entertained…in that “Ooh, what kind of road-kill was that?” way…

You probably already have one of these.

270 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:57:34pm

On the cutting edge in San Francisco
This city has an obsession with the male sex organ and not just on Gay Pride Day

update on the Nanny states aversion to messin with yo babies dick

[Link: www.jewishworldreview.com…]

271 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:58:09pm

Mmm…who knew there was so much anti-foaming goodness in every nugget?

“Dimethylpolysiloxane added as an antifoaming agent.” I’m assuming that means to keep the fryer from foaming over when the frozen nuggety goodness is dropped in.

/puke

272 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:58:57pm

re: #256 dreggas

actually No, not edwards either. There really weren’t that many good choices in the primaries, I was a clark supporter myself.

you would have been better off being an athletic supporter, but I do give you props for admitting it!

273 Political Atheist  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:59:14pm

I added a link to the Paged 6th Circuit court opinion on HCR and the individual mandate.

But just to keep it easy, especially for those who already saw the Page-
[Link: www.ca6.uscourts.gov…]

274 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 2:59:58pm

re: #271 darthstar

Mmm…who knew there was so much anti-foaming goodness in every nugget?

“Dimethylpolysiloxane added as an antifoaming agent.” I’m assuming that means to keep the fryer from foaming over when the frozen nuggety goodness is dropped in.

/puke

If there was ONE part of a chicken that biologically would be called a “McNugget”, would you put it in your mouth!?!?

275 sattv4u2  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:01:50pm

re: #274 sattv4u2

If there was ONE part of a chicken that biologically would be called a “McNugget”, would you put it in your mouth!?!?

or better yet ,, a PAIR of them!!

276 Political Atheist  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:02:00pm

re: #270 albusteve

Government small enough to just cover a foreskin.

277 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:04:17pm

North Korea to Chair UN Disarmament Conference
Despite numerous breaches of arms embargoes and continued threats to expand its nuclear weapons program, North Korea has assumed the presidency of the United Nations Conference on Disarmament. In a speech to the 65-nation arms control forum in Geneva, the newly-appointed president, North Korean Ambassador So Se Pyong, said he was “very much committed to the Conference.”

the UN is out of control…I hate those guys and see no reason not withdraw membership and them out of the country…we are the fools

Read more: [Link: www.foxnews.com…]

278 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:04:30pm

re: #269 wrenchwench

You probably already have one of these.

I used to kill everything I ate…there’s a great book (can’t remember the title) where a guy tries to recreate a classic French royal banquet menu but must acquire all of the meats himself (Squab—baby pigeon, Caribou, frog legs, wild boar meat, etc…). The book follows his twelve month journey through most of the US states and is quite funny at times - raising pigeon chicks that he caught on a building ledge and almost killed himself for, only to have them escape and have to hunt two fresh pigeons on another building ledge)…good fun.

279 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:04:56pm

re: #241 blueraven

terrorist killer

anticolonialist usurper hates the white culture

280 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:05:10pm

re: #276 Rightwingconspirator

Government small enough to just cover a foreskin.

CA sucks…I will never go there again…the dream is dead

281 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:05:52pm

re: #274 sattv4u2

If there was ONE part of a chicken that biologically would be called a “McNugget”, would you put it in your mouth!?!?

I’ve eaten Balut (fertile duck egg - basically a duckling a few days short of hatching cooked in the shell and eaten like a big chewy jello shot). So you could say there is no part of a bird that I haven’t put in my mouth.

282 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:06:46pm

re: #277 albusteve

the UN is out of control…I hate those guys and see no reason not withdraw membership and them out of the country…we are the fools


If Bush was still president you could be our next ambassador to the UN.

283 blueraven  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:07:12pm

re: #279 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

anticolonialist usurper hates the white culture

professorial elitist bambi

284 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:07:31pm

re: #281 darthstar

I’ve eaten Balut (fertile duck egg - basically a duckling a few days short of hatching cooked in the shell and eaten like a big chewy jello shot). So you could say there is no part of a bird that I haven’t put in my mouth.

and I can say the same about women

285 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:07:34pm

re: #281 darthstar

I’ve eaten Balut (fertile duck egg - basically a duckling a few days short of hatching cooked in the shell and eaten like a big chewy jello shot). So you could say there is no part of a bird that I haven’t put in my mouth.

Haven’t tried balut, yet. But there are a lot of places to get it where I live.

286 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:09:24pm

re: #282 darthstar


If Bush was still president you could be our next ambassador to the UN.

go in there with my Stoeger slung over my shoulder and beat the podium with my Sketchers

287 Varek Raith  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:12:32pm

re: #195 groovimus

Is that it?

288 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:14:15pm

re: #287 Varek Raith

Is that it?

It’s like a flashback from 2008.

289 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:16:32pm

re: #270 albusteve

On the cutting edge in San Francisco
This city has an obsession with the male sex organ and not just on Gay Pride Day

update on the Nanny states aversion to messin with yo babies dick

/eyeroll

Lol gay women in this city do not have an obsession with the male sex organ, not on any day.

290 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:16:58pm

re: #284 albusteve

and I can say the same about women

Congratulations, so can I.

291 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:17:42pm

re: #287 Varek Raith

Is that it?

He or she was probably ready to have their martyr complex validated with a quick ban. I think just leaving it is way more humiliating.

292 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:19:06pm

I laughed through this whole thing. YMMV.

Youtube Video

Later Lizards.

293 researchok  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:20:19pm

re: #275 sattv4u2

or better yet ,, a PAIR of them!!

Speaking of pairs…

294 researchok  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:20:48pm

re: #293 researchok

Speaking of pairs…

295 Alexzander  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:20:53pm

re: #292 Slumbering Behemoth

That’s what my inner monologue sounds like when I’m walking down the street every day

296 RogueOne  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:22:08pm

re: #281 darthstar

I’ve eaten Balut (fertile duck egg - basically a duckling a few days short of hatching cooked in the shell and eaten like a big chewy jello shot). So you could say there is no part of a bird that I haven’t put in my mouth.

Youtube Video
297 RogueOne  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:22:44pm

re: #296 RogueOne

That was supposed to start at the 2 minute mark but doesn’t so scroll ahead

298 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:22:48pm

re: #294 researchok

Speaking of pairs…

listening to falsetto may be a problem

299 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:23:30pm

re: #293 researchok

Speaking of pairs…


fixed

300 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:25:19pm

re: #296 RogueOne

[Video]

It’s good…tastes like duck soup.

301 RogueOne  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:26:30pm

re: #300 darthstar

I’m not fond of full grown duck.

302 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:26:59pm

re: #301 RogueOne

I’m not fond of full grown duck.

That’s when it needs to be turned into confit.

303 researchok  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:27:51pm

re: #299 darthstar

fixed

Good with your hands, I take it.

304 RogueOne  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:28:44pm

Gotta run but have we started making fun of Chris Hansen yet? I have a lot of jokes to get through but I’ll have to start later:


Chris Hansen Caught Cheating On Wife By Hidden Camera: ‘To Catch A Predator’ Host Nailed: Report
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

305 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:29:49pm

re: #303 researchok

Good with your hands, I take it.

I’ve saved myself from almost certain death, yes.

306 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:31:18pm

re: #304 RogueOne

Gotta run but have we started making fun of Chris Hansen yet? I have a lot of jokes to get through but I’ll have to start later:

Chris Hansen Caught Cheating On Wife By Hidden Camera: ‘To Catch A Predator’ Host Nailed: Report
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

He was just investigating the repeated disappearance of his penis.

307 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:31:36pm

re: #301 RogueOne

I’m not fond of full grown duck.

Roast stuffed duck is wonderful. Just make sure all the #4 is picked out.

308 albusteve  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:31:52pm

re: #305 darthstar

I’ve saved myself from almost certain death, yes.

LOL!
foosball can be fatal?

309 blueraven  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:34:27pm

re: #304 RogueOne

Gotta run but have we started making fun of Chris Hansen yet? I have a lot of jokes to get through but I’ll have to start later:

Chris Hansen Caught Cheating On Wife By Hidden Camera: ‘To Catch A Predator’ Host Nailed: Report
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

That is tabloid trash. Who gives a shit about Chris Hansens marriage?
It hardly equates him to the scum he busts for going after little girls.

310 engineer cat  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:36:51pm

re: #301 RogueOne

I’m not fond of full grown duck.

i don’t like them either since they never answer questions directly and order drinks the bartender never heard of

311 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:39:09pm

This was predictable….

Katrina and the Waves Join Tom Petty’s Fight Against Michele Bachmann

Katrina & The Waves – whose 1985 song “Walking On Sunshine” was played by Michele Bachmann at a South Carolina campaign rally on Tuesday – have issued a statement on their website:

Katrina & The Waves would like it to be known that they do not endorse the use of ‘Walking On Sunshine’ by Michele Bachmann and have instructed their lawyers accordingly.

312 Spocomptonite  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:45:21pm

re: #311 Killgore Trout

This was predictable…

Katrina and the Waves Join Tom Petty’s Fight Against Michele Bachmann

Pretty soon the only music options Bachmann will have available to her is pre-1923 stuff. Now where’s that record player?

313 darthstar  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:47:02pm

re: #312 Spocomptonite

Pretty soon the only music options Bachmann will have available to her is pre-1923 stuff. Now where’s that record player?

You mean wax cylinders, right?

Image: ph2-b.jpg

By the way, I saw a guy recording a Dead show once with a wax cylinder recorder.

314 Severus  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 5:43:20pm

Pawlenty is absolutely correct it is all natural. it is natural for the climate to be f’d up when you fill the atmosphere with shite.

315 groovimus  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 6:44:54pm

re: #198 jamesfirecat

Leaving aside the majority of the country, do you believe in AGW or not?

Beside the point. The point is that leftists, including ones on this blog spend much hot air painting AGW skeptics as scientific dufuses or anti-science, or both. Now we see that over 1000 PhD scientists must be included in the cabal of dufuses so specified. Hence we get a good laugh at the strategy.

317 groovimus  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 6:55:00pm

re: #201 wlewisiii

Danger Will Robinson, denier on the loose! Prepare Science! They can’t stand Science!

hee hee hee — you guys are a barrel of laughs. Now since I supposedly have a problem with science by intimation so cleverly expressed, I will say — I DO have a problem with science, one that has taken me several years and so far 50 pages to address. I’m looking for a reviewer or two, more brilliant than me to check my mathematical rigor in a few places, here is a link to the ongoing project, I pay well let me know of any blunders you can identify and you’re hired:
[Link: www.posterwall.com…]

318 groovimus  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 7:16:47pm

re: #316 jaunte

[Link: www.amazon.com…]

OK so she is a scholar. Nowhere do I see any indication that she can handle any sort of statistical analysis on her own or understand other statistical discourse. You think she would be able to explain multivariate polynomial regression to her co-author to his perfect understanding? This is ability they would need to be able to evaluate the growing number of papers critiquing the GOVERNMENT FUNDED AGW RESEARCH.

319 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 7:17:36pm

Absolutely pathetic.

320 Interesting Times  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 8:47:46pm

re: #317 groovimus

I’m looking for a reviewer or two, more brilliant than me to check my mathematical rigor in a few places, here is a link to the ongoing project

That’s okay. I’m already familiar with your most well-known work.

321 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 8:50:31pm

re: #195 groovimus

WHY THE MAJORITY IN THIS COUNTRY NO LONGER BELIEVE IN AGW

The majority understand that AGW is real and a problem.

Movement afoot among PhD scientists dissenting on AGW and have more than 1000 signatures:
[Link: www.climatechangedispatch.com…]


I bet we can find more than 1000 scientists named Steve who agree with the climatologists.

Famous physicist Fred Singer says 40% of scientists are skeptics of AGW:
[Link: www.1913intel.com…]

Famous? When did being famous equate to being informed, honest and correct? Singer is a paid shill, as he was for the Tobacco companies.


Here’s what one of them says about his change of heart. Please notice that the American Physical Society has blocked debate (stifled dissent) ON THIS when there are enough signatures to force a debate, and so this member resigned his membership:
[Link: www.theregister.co.uk…]

It’s a shame that the Astronomical Society has stifled debate between Astronomy and Astrology too.

Please see how the IPCC graphs of temperature predictions have compared to satellite data:

[Link: blogs.news.com.au…]

Andrew Bolt has been known to fudge and/or misunderstand data to fit his bias.

322 Lanaty  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 10:04:38pm

I know a lot of people credit Al Gore with bringing awareness to the issue of Climate Change, but it irritates me that a politician had to do it. Climate Change became instantly politicized, and the way a person felt about it stereotyped them one way or another. It is so bizarre to me that a person’s opinion regarding an ongoing scientific phenomenon is well-predicted by their political leanings.

I had my own doubts about man-made climate change for a long time. The fact that it was so politicized was enough to make me a skeptic. And then that BBC Documentary came along (The Great Global Warming Swindle), which seemed really damning. More damning, however, were the subsequent revelations that much of the data in that documentary were misrepresented or altered.

So this is probably just me being an idealist, but I still have some hope that the deniers can be convinced to at least behave responsibly. I think that anyone would agree that smog and landfills are unpleasant and it’d be nice to have less of both. We can be absolutely, completely sure that those are man-made. There should be no argument about that. And for those Islam-hating fundamaniacs, let’s remind them that we are funding some pretty evil Islamic regimes when we fill up the tank.

I’m hoping some great engineers end up saving us all by creating really fantastic batteries so that someday in the not-so-distant future, we might all just drive electric cars. Hug your local engineering grad student.

323 groovimus  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 7:17:27am

re: #319 Charles

absolutely pathetic

This post appearing immediately after mine, possibly in reference to it? Assuming this is the case I must say I’m intrigued by the liklihood of being called absolutely pathetic, the likes of which haven’t been fired my way since high school. Speaking of, it was a private school with English as THE killer app, and I do believe I have brought good grammer and concise reasoning to the poster’s blog. I went on to obtain an advanced degree in one of the sciences, so there is some consistency in the ability to apply some logic and reasoning to the posts. Not to mention a little authenticity and prestige (haha). You would think our host would be honored to have such a category of absolute pathos on display here and be happy with the new target pulling commenters back to the site. Now given all this, and with the original assumption in play, may I ask: are there reasons for the absolutely pathetic labelling that I’m missing? Elucidation would really help. Please forgive me if the original assumption is in error.

324 Mr. Hammer  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 7:25:02am

re: #320 publicityStunted

That’s okay. I’m already familiar with your most well-known work.

What’s the connection to this link?

325 groovimus  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 7:39:51am

re: #321 b_sharp

Andrew Bolt has been known to fudge and/or misunderstand data to fit his bias.

And the same can’t be said by whole departments at East Anglia given the 2009 scandal? And I would include the department that, after an inquiry, gave everyone a clean bill of health, even one of the main guys who voluntarily and autonomously resigned when the scandal broke? This is the main embarrassment with which you guys have to deal, and the one that awakened so many scientists to the controversy and drove many of them into the fray, studying the issue on their own dime.

Now beyond this, I’m ready to see some other analysis of satellite data that tracks the IPCC predictions. I’m truly open to persuasion on this. But you have to realize that with so many high-powered academics armed with data, scientific ability, and motivation arrayed against you, I’m not going to aim any bias against them like you guys do.

326 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 7:47:52am

re: #323 groovimus

You have an “advanced degree in one of the sciences?” Wow! Very impressive.

327 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 7:54:30am

re: #325 groovimus


And the same can’t be said by whole departments at East Anglia given the 2009 scandal? And I would include the department that, after an inquiry, gave everyone a clean bill of health, even one of the main guys who voluntarily and autonomously resigned when the scandal broke?

Ah. And I assume if some inquiry of that inquiry found that they hadn’t done anything wrong, that inquiry would also be corrupt. Because you’ve decided they are already.

You aren’t fooling anyone.

328 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 7:57:14am

re: #323 groovimus


I went on to obtain an advanced degree in one of the sciences, so there is some consistency in the ability to apply some logic and reasoning to the posts. Not to mention a little authenticity and prestige (haha).

I want to point out that first sentence is an ungrammatical mess, and the second one is a fragment. The school you attended may have emphasized English as a ‘killer app’, but you’re using a decidedly buggy version— and I think you picked up some malware along with it.

329 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 8:21:43am

re: #323 groovimus

And yes, by “absolutely pathetic” I was referring to your tedious and entirely predictable recital of right wing anti-science talking points. If you think you’re fooling anyone with your claim to be a “scientist,” let me disabuse you of that notion. We’ve seen this tactic tried at LGF over and over and over, by right wing parrots, and we give it exactly the weight and credibility it deserves — i.e., zero.

330 groovimus  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 8:47:43am

re: #322 Lanaty

I’m hoping some great engineers end up saving us all by creating really fantastic batteries so that someday in the not-so-distant future, we might all just drive electric cars. Hug your local engineering grad student.

I know what you mean, for years starting back in the ‘70’s I held out such hope. One thing you would think in favor of electric vehicles would be the difference in efficiency between electric motors (90+ %) and heat engines (30+ %, high 30’s within narrow power-velocity bands for Diesels). Back in the ‘70’s for a short time there was some hope for batteries of high energy density using sodium salts as electrolyte. I even told my girlfriend that these batteries were maybe 10 years away from application. The problem was that this technology required that the electrolyte be held at high temperature, hundreds of degrees, in effect re-introducing a drawback similar to the one characterising steam cars, i.e. delayed start-up because of heating period for the medium, and just all-around messiness.

Here is the deal as I see it. There is no hope of any electrochemical cell ever coming anywhere near the energy density of hydrocarbon fuel, and I’m talking closer than many hundreds of percent comparison. I’m not an electrochemist or a Chem E but I’m about 95% sure I’m correct in saying that there will be only small improvements in energy density from here on out. Just the idea that the explosive power of breaking chemical bonds on every molecule in a tank, can be matched by the ho-hum giving up of electrons by ions to an electrode, is sort of laughable.

But here is the catch. You are hoping for ingenuity to come along and save us. What about billions of years old ingenuity inherent in the hydrocarbon cycle. Suppose H2O and CO2 are transported deep (dozens of miles) into the earth’s mantle, where catalysts help convert the nuclear-powered heat energy from the core, into potential energy carried by chemical bonds, with the liberation of O2? Remember my 95% certainty, well it also applies here, my level of certainty about the origin of fluid hydrocarbons. This would put hydrocarbons in the renewable energy category, and it seems the planet was constructed for the purpose of supporting civilizations on the surface with unlimited energy. Please Google hydrocarbons in the mantle. You will get thousands of hits to scientific papers on this topic, many just available as abstracts. Even the PubMed search engine, dedicated to health and life sciences, gave me about 700 hits 3~4 years ago. Historical note: the Russians have been studying the hydrocarbon cycle since the ‘40’s and for a long time were targets of derision for Western experts, so-called. No more.

331 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 8:54:08am

re: #330 groovimus

Wow, an abiotic oil freak. Who’d have guessed it. And someone who thinks Soviet scientists were really onto something. A fan of Lysenkoism as well?

Even if hydrocarbons were a renewable resource, it’s moot; AGW would still be occurring.

Please answer these very simple questions:

1. Does CO2 added to the atmosphere cause more heat to be trapped? So, starting with the atmosphere as it is right now, if you add CO2, will more heat be trapped?

2. Has mankind, mainly through the burning of hydrocarbons but also through other sources, added large amounts of CO2 to the atmosphere? Please note that the amounts of CO2 necessary to increase warning are not a large percentage of the total atmosphere.

3. It seems you’re denying that the earth has warmed at all. Given that all independent sources— every scientific body on earth that studies the climate, every nation, and every instrument and other temperature record— shows warming, can you please explain your denial? Do you seriously believe that there’s a conspiracy that involves 99.9% of all climatologists on earth, and every national government?

332 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 9:03:43am

re: #330 groovimus

Wow, that sounded all science-y.

Abiotic petroleum is a bogus theory, and it’s been discredited for more than a hundred years. But I’m not surprised to find a pseudo-scientist promoting pseudo-science.

333 groovimus  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 10:40:11am

re: #331 Obdicut

OK here we go:

1. The answer is yes. The answer yes is rendered as not relevant to the overal picture, and here is why: Do you know what is the cardinal characteristic of a type 0 servomechanism? If not I will say it in the most simplified terms possible. It contains in the feedback path, or forward path, a single-pole time integration. This means that in the case of a system, say a motor controller so characterised, if you put a step torque load on the shaft, the speed changes, but climbs back towards the regulated speed with a time profile of exponential order, with time constant chosen in the overall stability criteria determination.

Now since the earth has a closed loop regulatory system, featuring namely THE OCEANS AND WATER VAPOR, the ability of water vapor to regulate atmospheric temperature has never been in doubt. Since water vapor is thousands of times more effective at modifying atmospheric temperature than CO2, that it is proposed in most of the published papers attacking AGW theory (I’m sure you guys know this since of course you are familiar with all of these papers) that the earth approximates a type 0 feedback control system, in its ability to cancel any load change introduced by CO2 into the system.

A quantitative analog, engineering wise: pure time integration is not physically possible because of the requirement of infinite gain at the origin, but since gains of greater than 10^7 are achievable, type 0 behavior can still be assured because of the high number. In the ecological system, since water vapor is thousands of time more effective at heat regulation than CO2, this is high enough to approximate a type 0 system.

2. The answer is yes.

3. I am denying no such thing. There obviously WAS an ice age.

334 groovimus  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 10:48:00am

re: #328 Obdicut

fragments are not sentences, true. The fragment was meant as a joke. and jokes use fragments all of the time (haha). Even though jokes have no minds of their own. I’m not writing scientific papers on this blog. And the first sentence IS awkward: I claimed not to use perfect grammer, just good grammer in concise fashion. Do you use always perfect grammer? what a bunch of nitpicking. Make a rhetorical point next time.

335 jaunte  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 10:56:39am

re: #334 groovimus


This would put hydrocarbons in the renewable energy category, and it seems the planet was constructed for the purpose of supporting civilizations on the surface with unlimited energy.


You’re just messing around, right? What evidence do you suggest that would show the planet was constructed, or for any purpose?

336 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 11:01:07am

Oh brother.

337 groovimus  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 11:11:41am

re: #329 Charles
And yes, by “absolutely pathetic” I was referring to your tedious and entirely predictable recital of right wing anti-science talking points. If you think you’re fooling anyone with your claim to be a “scientist,” let me disabuse you of that notion. We’ve seen this tactic tried at LGF over and over and over, by right wing parrots, and we give it exactly the weight and credibility it deserves — i.e., zero.

Wow — can you be more specific? And beyond that I’m perceiving some degree of ad-hominem spirit here, directed towards me and not outwards from me. Is this the best you guys can do? Now I provided a link to my current work, and if you think I am fooling around here, please have at it. Look at it. Like I said, find a flaw in it, I pay good money and need a couple of reviewers. You can profit from me. I hold no grudge.

338 groovimus  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 11:30:24am

re: #332 Charles

Wow, that sounded all science-y.

Abiotic petroleum is a bogus theory, and it’s been discredited for more than a hundred years.

Science-y? Wow — would fit in great at a conference, even one for lay folks. Now since you seem to think hydrocarbons cannot be formed in the mantle, this means you keep up with the field right? You have read some of the recent papers on this? I admit I haven’t read many but I have read a few and seen how many are being published and the amount is very large, this is hardly settled. OK let’s say you know what you are talking about. Then you surely can tell us where the only deep well was drilled, AND IT WAS ONE OF THE DEEPEST EVER, in a place chosen with the least liklihood for finding hydrocarbs. Why was this done, costing upwards of a hundred million? What was the outcome? I have forgotten the country but I know the region, do you?

339 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 11:32:28am

re: #333 groovimus

By saying yes to question one and then saying that the system compensates for it, you are actually contradicting yourself. If you were claiming— as deniers often do— that they system would somehow deal with the excess CO2, then your non-argument might have a point. But instead, you simply claim water vapor is ‘more effective’ at modifying temperature, which is absolutely irrelevant. It can be more effective all day long, but you didn’t demonstrate that it has any feedback relationship to CO2.

For your claim to be true, you would have to show that CO2 introduced into atmosphere would affect water vapor in a fashion to create a feedback loop whereby the heating caused by the CO2 was compensated for by the action of water vapor. Since the opposite is true— the indirect action of CO2, by trapping heat, increases water vapor in the atmosphere, trapping more heat— your point is unfinished, self-contradictory, and proves the opposite of your intention. Kudos.

Do you honestly think that throwing around scientific jargon at random is going to convince anyone? It’s a rather odd tactic.

In addition, obviously dodging questions— like my question three, which rather obviously is about AGW— isn’t very effective either.

340 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 11:34:42am

re: #334 groovimus

fragments are not sentences, true. The fragment was meant as a joke. and jokes use fragments all of the time (haha). Even though jokes have no minds of their own. I’m not writing scientific papers on this blog. And the first sentence IS awkward: I claimed not to use perfect grammer, just good grammer in concise fashion. Do you use always perfect grammer? what a bunch of nitpicking. Make a rhetorical point next time.

I don’t always use perfect grammar. I also don’t claim to have gone to a school where English was the ‘killer app’ and to ‘have brought’ good grammar.

Your writing is, frankly, terrible. It’s ungrammatical, jargon-laden, and very difficult to follow.

341 groovimus  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 11:42:36am

re: #331 Obdicut

Wow, an abiotic oil freak. Who’d have guessed it.

Well I’m estimating not too many guessed it if they were paying attention my 95% certainty. I’ve never known a “freak” who was less than 100% into their freakiness of choice.

342 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 11:45:24am

re: #341 groovimus

Wow, an abiotic oil freak. Who’d have guessed it.

Well I’m estimating not too many guessed it if they were paying attention my 95% certainty. I’ve never known a “freak” who was less than 100% into their freakiness of choice.

Abiotic oil, wow, I just happen to be reading a novel (that’s a story that somebody totally made up) where they’re hunting for an abiotic oil well in China. I was thinking that would make a fantastic movie, with Angelina Jolie playing the hot geologist chick.

343 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 11:46:04am

re: #341 groovimus

I have. Abiotic oil is a discredited theory, most popularized by the non-scientist Bjorn Lomberg, and Soviet scientists of Lysenko-ish quality.

What is your scientific field?

344 groovimus  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 11:59:42am

re: #339 Obdicut

You weren’t paying attention. I never said a type 0 system cannot be perturbed. Obviously CO2 introduction perturbs the environment somewhat. Ignoring the correction of negative feedback is the major flaw of AGW alarmism. It leads to the non-correlation between satellite data and the IPCC predictions, which by the way, non-correlation which has yet to be refuted in this thread.

And think about what you write: CO2 introduced into atmosphere would affect water vapor in a fashion to create a feedback loop

Sounds like the feedback loop gets “created” in real time? Man, those creative powers are just so —- I mean really CREATIVE

Do you honestly think that throwing around scientific jargon at random is going to convince anyone? It’s a rather odd tactic.

Yes yes yes. Oh that wretched scientific jargon. Gets thrown around by Al Gore, and some of you guys. Its all so odd isn’t it? Heaven forbid anyone introduce a simpified scientific process description here especially after being lambasted by the host as a scientific fraud.

345 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 12:05:34pm

re: #344 groovimus

Ignoring the correction of negative feedback is the major flaw of AGW alarmism.

What negative feedback? There is positive feedback from water vapor, not negative. Increased water vapor causes increased heat trapping. CO2 causes— as you’ve acknowledged— more heat to be trapped. Water vapor increases when more heat is trapped.

So, instead of a negative feedback loop, it’s a positive one. You haven’t demonstrated— or even attempted— otherwise.


Sounds like the feedback loop gets “created” in real time? Man, those creative powers are just so —- I mean really CREATIVE

This is incomprehensible on your part. I’m not sure if you realize it; it sounds like you think this is a rather clever slam, but it simply comes off as more of your obtuse and unreadable English.

Heaven forbid anyone introduce a simpified scientific process description here especially after being lambasted by the host as a scientific fraud.

But you didn’t do that; you threw around jargon, and you introduced a malformed, illogical, and self-contradictory ‘scientific progress description’. You claimed that water vapor somehow compensated for CO2— you didn’t show this mechanism of action or explain it in the least. Indeed, you couldn’t do so, given that the opposite is true.

346 groovimus  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 12:12:16pm

re: #340 Obdicut

Your writing is, frankly, terrible. It’s ungrammatical, jargon-laden, and very difficult to follow.

My suggestion: get off it. The above quote is just your contribution to the ad hominem spirit here. Nobody else is jacking with my writing ability. In case you haven’t noticed, I am writing very very fast as I tangle with so many people here who are part of this sport. And doing it very well considering no time for a normally high amount of care, missing capitalization and such. They all seem to be reading what I’m saying with no problem except for that which is ego-driven.

And the funny part is you take what I say about my English ability so seriously. I threw it out half in jest after the host moaned about the absolute pathos apparent in what I write. Get off it. A weird three word suggestion of questionable grammer.

347 Interesting Times  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 12:19:16pm

re: #346 groovimus

Nobody else is jacking with my writing ability.

I did. Check the earlier link I gave of what it reminds me of :)

Get off it. A weird three word suggestion of questionable grammer.

Please, for the love of the English language, at least learn to spell that word correctly.

(and while you’re at it, learn to use the “quote” button as well).

348 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 12:22:47pm

re: #346 groovimus

You’re using the phrase ‘ad hominem’ wrong. If I was claiming your argument was false because your grammar sucked, that would be an ad hominem argument. Instead, I’m pointing out your claim to have brought good grammar is false, and that I often can’t understand you.

An ad hominem attack is not just saying “You suck”, it’s saying “You suck, therefore your argument should be ignored”.

Instead of ignoring your argument, I engaged with it and demonstrated that it’s incredibly faulty. You haven’t responded to that, preferring to claim victimhood.

349 groovimus  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 12:34:01pm

re: #345 Obdicut

But you didn’t do that; you threw around jargon, and you introduced a malformed, illogical, and self-contradictory ‘scientific progress description’. You claimed that water vapor somehow compensated for CO2— you didn’t show this mechanism of action or explain it in the least. Indeed, you couldn’t do so, given that the opposite is true.

I didn’t introduce a ‘scientific progress description’ it was an engineering metaphor for a ‘scientific process description’, something which scientists use all of the time when discussing ideas. But it seems you guys don’t know a lot about how scientists introduce ideas to one another.

It seems that as for yourself, you are not aware of the sign of the factor due to water vapor. Now here is something you should know about, it seems you don’t. There was a huge scientific study conducted using the climate data in the week after 9-11-2001. This study established the sign of this water vapor factor and an estimate of its magnitude as well for atmospheric heat impact.

I know I used terrible grammar but see if you can decypher and come up with the answer: what was the basis for this study? What was the outcome?

Ok my brothers, it has been great sport, quite fun but I have to break off and get some work done, I’ll check back later. You should be able to determine my field of study from my comments and the link to my paper in progress.

350 groovimus  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 12:42:58pm

re: #347 publicityStunted

Please, for the love of the English language, at least learn to spell that word correctly.

You perhaps missed it: I have been pounding the keyboard feverishly, very fast play of ideas here tangling with maybe a half dozen of you guys. And you all seem to be having a good time. Now — You see I have spelled ‘grammar’ correctly several times. Just a 3 word suggestion of questionable grammatical style: Get off it.

351 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 12:43:53pm

re: #349 groovimus

Man, hinting at your argument is so much better at making it!

The sign of the value of water vapor? As I said, water vapor increases heat trapping. This isn’t something that had to be studied, really, it’s a basic of physics— as is CO2 in atmosphere.

352 Varek Raith  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 3:14:55pm

Lol wow.

353 tnguitarist  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 8:54:52pm

re: #350 groovimus

Please learn how to use the ‘quote’ and ‘reply’ buttons. Thanks.

354 freetoken  Thu, Jun 30, 2011 9:50:40pm

re: #349 groovimus

You’re confusing condensation trails with water vapor.

In the former case water is in a liquid or solid state, and the latter in a gaseous state.

355 groovimus  Fri, Jul 1, 2011 9:19:17am

re: #343 Obdicut

I have. Abiotic oil is a discredited theory, most popularized by the non-scientist Bjorn Lomberg, and Soviet scientists of Lysenko-ish quality.

Wrong. Since abiotic hydrocarbon formation is known to exist (read up on the Venus probes and tell us which life forms on Venus created all of that atmosphereic methane) it is no stretch to propose methane conversion to other hydrocarbons, or processes generating other hydrocarbons. And since there are liteally thousands of scientific papers on this topic, you propose all are written by ” scientists of Lysenko-ish quality”?

Here’s just one:

Scott, H.P., Hemley, R.J., Mao, H.-K., Herschbach, D.R., Fried, L.E., Howard, W.M. & Bastea, S. (2004). Generation of methane in the Earth’s mantle: In situ high pressure-temperature measurements of carbonate reduction. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 101(39):14023-14026.

I could not find this one online; please order it at your local university library and get educated on this.

I did find commentary on this paper:
[Link: www.space.com…]

“It reaffirms that the presence of methane on other planets — such as the recent findings on methane in the Martian atmosphere — is not necessarily indicative of life,” said University of Toronto geologist and chemist Barbara Sherwood Lollar, who was not involved in either study.

And the following from Freeman Dyson:

“…the study is important” said Freeman Dyson, professor emeritus at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton.

“Not because it settles the question whether the origin of natural gas and petroleum is organic or inorganic,” Dyson said, “but because it gives us tools to attack the question experimentally. If the answer turns out to be inorganic, this has huge implications for the ecology and economy of our planet as well as for the chemistry of other planets.”

Well well well! read again: “… this has huge implications for the ecology and economy of our planet…”

Touche my brothas

356 freetoken  Sat, Jul 2, 2011 1:30:14am

re: #355 groovimus

Um, there is a big difference between methane and petroleum.

Real big difference.

Abiotic oil is a nut-case idea hatched in the Soviet Union.

Geologists/geophysicists and geochemists, and Petroleum Engineers, have studied petroleum and frankly abiotic oil is to them what literal creationism is to biologists.

As for Dyson - he is a well known attention hog and has made a second career (after finishing doing any real physics) for himself being a professional gadfly on numerous topics. He is not recognized by anyone as an authority in the field. I dare you to find any paper he has published on petroleum.

357 freetoken  Sat, Jul 2, 2011 1:31:13am

re: #355 groovimus

And, I notice you decided to ignore my previous comment on your error wrt water vapor.

I assume that is because you are too ashamed to admit you haven’t a clue about what you write.

358 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sat, Jul 2, 2011 9:56:25am

re: #355 groovimus

Methane isn’t oil.

And again, even if it were, it’s moot: the burning of hydrocarbons, whatever their source, adds CO2 to atmosphere, which traps heat, which is causing AGW.


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