Ariel Sharon’s Son Calls for Genocide in Gaza

Wingnuts • Views: 40,369

Using sports metaphors and the “none are innocent because they elected Hamas” logic this JPOST op ed writer calls for genocide. If he were commenting here he’d be banned.

So what’s up with the Jerusalem Post hosting calls for genocide?

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

Why do our citizens have to live with rocket fire from Gaza while we fight with our hands tied? Why are the citizens of Gaza immune? If the Syrians were to open fire on our towns, would we not attack Damascus? If the Cubans were to fire at Miami, wouldn’t Havana suffer the consequences? That’s what’s called ‘deterrence’ – if you shoot at me, I’ll shoot at you. There is no justification for the State of Gaza being able to shoot at our towns with impunity. We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.

There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire.

Were this to happen, the images from Gaza might be unpleasant – but victory would be swift, and the lives of our soldiers and civilians spared.

IF THE government isn’t prepared to go all the way on this, it will mean reoccupying the entire Gaza Strip. Not a few neighborhoods in the suburbs, as with Cast Lead, but the entire Strip, like in Defensive Shield, so that rockets can no longer be fired.

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711 comments
1 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:55:05pm

Yikes.

That's Ariel Sharon's youngest son.

2 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:58:00pm

The comments are sickening.

3 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:58:28pm

This is horrible.

4 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:59:15pm

Totally agree with Randall - WTF is up with the Jerusalem Post here?

Very disturbing.

5 Elias  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:01:16pm

Disgusting but "flattening Gaza" is not genocide.

6 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:01:49pm

I'm really hoping this is a "you sound crazy scary so Hamas begins to think we are serious" planted op ed, and not the start of a populist far right campaign.

7 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:03:46pm

re: #5 Elias

Disgusting but "flattening Gaza" is not genocide.

Indiscriminate killing sounds a whole lot like genocide to me.

8 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:04:24pm

re: #5 Elias

Disgusting but "flattening Gaza" is not genocide.

If there are people in it as you flatten it, it's genocide. It's no different than the Serbian forces blindly firing heavy artillery into the apartment buildings of Sarajevo.

9 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:05:47pm

Outrageous. This is beyond hate speech or incitement. These are the words of a madman that has no place in the current environment. The Jerusalem Post should be ashamed of themselves. Evil.

10 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:06:31pm

re: #4 Charles Johnson

If this were expressed in the Knesset, it would probably get banished under the same law that banished the Kahanists from the polity. Sharon's sentiments are being expressed by quite a few in Israel right now precisely because Hamas has extended its reach all the way to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. And people are really wondering what to do next as the half measures and limited retaliatory strikes have done nothing to stop Hamas attacks.

That kind of fearful thinking leads to very dark places. And that includes going after the kind of total warfare that Israel has steadfastly avoided for two decades in dealing with the Palestinians.

11 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:08:04pm

It's really creepy how breathlessly excited he seems to be. This is what I mean by wargasm.

Insane.

12 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:09:08pm

You don't have to be evil to defeat evil. We seem to have raised a new generation who fearfully think that's the case.

13 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:11:07pm

re: #12 Randall Gross

You don't have to be evil to defeat evil. We seem to have raised a new generation who fearfully think that's the case.

The extremists on both sides are feeding each other, giving each other what they want, as so often happens.

14 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:15:39pm

re: #5 Elias

Disgusting but "flattening Gaza" is not genocide.

So if someone said "flatten Tel Aviv" it would be a call for...what?

15 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:19:20pm

re: #14 CuriousLurker

So if someone said "flatten Tel Aviv" it would be a call for...what?

He also said "flatten ALL of Gaza." He also used the Hiroshima and Nagasaki analogies. Now put that in the context of the size of the Gaza Strip. How does Gilad Sharon propose that Israel "flatten ALL of Gaza" with such ferocity down to the city streets without itself causing the utter destruction of the people of Gaza?

16 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:22:03pm

What I don't understand is why did Jerusalem Post publish this crap? Have they gone full wingnut?

I stopped reading their site because of the atrocious web design.

17 philosophus invidius  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:23:49pm

re: #5 Elias

Disgusting but "flattening Gaza" is not genocide.

Just mass murder?

18 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:28:28pm

re: #16 Vicious Babushka

What I don't understand is why did Jerusalem Post publish this crap? Have they gone full wingnut?

I stopped reading their site because of the atrocious web design.

This is probably beyond wingnut. In fact, I don't think I ever read anything by Pamela Geller approaching this type of extremism. Adding insult to injury is the fact that this isn't just some crazy op-ed writer but the son of Ariel Sharon. Don't they realize the kind of damage this might create?

19 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:31:35pm

re: #18 Gus

This is probably beyond wingnut. In fact, I don't think I ever read anything by Pamela Geller approaching this type of extremism. Adding insult to injury is the fact that this isn't just some crazy op-ed writer but the son of Ariel Sharon. Don't they realize the kind of damage this might create?

I'm wondering if he just submitted the op-ed and they just posted it without vetting it first, just because of who he is.

20 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:31:52pm

It is outrageous.

But I have one question:

Why is it the relenless hate directed at Israel and Jews is never referred to as ‘disproportionate’?

How does it go unnoticed that in some countries in the region claim there are not enough calls to genocide and there is not enough hate and racism directed at Israel and Jews?

Of course, Israel is a free nation and no one will argue the kind of talk by Ariel Sharon's son is unacceptable in it's entirety.

Nevertheless, we ought to be a bit more consistent.

21 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:32:19pm

re: #19 Vicious Babushka

I'm wondering if he just submitted the op-ed and they just posted it without vetting it first, just because of who he is.

Maybe.

22 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:33:22pm

re: #6 Randall Gross

If this were any other country besides Israel, I'd say you were nuts.

If it were any other country.

23 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:34:19pm

re: #11 Ayeless in Ghazi

Stupid knows no borders.

Sharon is an idiot

24 Etaoin Shrdlu  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:34:37pm

As a historical note, it's not that Japan “weren’t surrendering fast enough” after Hiroshima, it's that they weren't going to surrender at all. They knew from the radiation signature that Little Boy was a uranium bomb, and assumed — correctly — that the U.S. could not have refined enough U235 for more than one bomb, and therefore that Hiroshima was a one-off event that the U.S. could not repeat. It was only after Nagasaki that Japan knew that the U.S. could also make plutonium bombs, which could be produced in quantity, that they surrendered.

In retrospect, knowing that the Japanese had their own atomic bomb program and would naturally draw these conclusions, we can say that it would probably have been better to start off with the plutonium bomb.

And no, there is not the slightest chance that Israel will ‘flatten’ Gaza. It's not what they do. Gilad Sharon's idiotic statements serve no purpose than to fuel anti-Israel propaganda.

25 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:34:43pm

re: #15 Gus

He also said "flatten ALL of Gaza." He also used the Hiroshima and Nagasaki analogies. Now put that in the context of the size of the Gaza Strip. How does Gilad Sharon propose that Israel "flatten ALL of Gaza" with such ferocity down to the city streets without itself causing the utter destruction of the people of Gaza?

Yeah, this is Kahanist talk. Have you ever read the Samson Blinded stuff? I'm obviously not going to link to it, but you'll find it easily if you google it. This is the same type of shit.

26 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:35:03pm

re: #18 Gus

Narcissists, damage.

They have no clue.

27 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:36:34pm

Twitchy team is on it!

...Militarily, the younger Sharon’s argument makes both strategic and tactical sense. A war is won when the enemy’s ability to wage war, and it’s desire to continue the conflict, is destroyed.

The finality of Sharon’s proposal, which would end rocket attacks into Israel from Gaza, has been met with predictable outrage on Twitter.

Right. This makes sense. Yep, sure it does.

28 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:37:56pm

"Flattening all of Gaza" would mean the deaths of 1.7 million people.

Yes, this really does sound like genocide to me.

The Jerusalem Post needs to renounce this op-ed.

29 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:38:22pm

re: #28 Charles Johnson

"Flattening all of Gaza" would mean the deaths of 1.7 million people.

Yes, this really does sound like genocide to me.

The Jerusalem Post needs to renounce this op-ed.

What the fuck were they thinking?

Probably they were not thinking.

30 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:39:53pm

re: #29 Vicious Babushka

"If it bleeds it leads"

And sells papers.

31 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:44:07pm

Maybe Rupert bought JPOST.

32 philosophus invidius  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:48:37pm

re: #27 Gus

Twitchy team is on it!

Right. This makes sense. Yep, sure it does.

Translation: I know the words "strategic" and "tactical"

33 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:54:00pm

re: #32 philosophus invidius

Translation: I know the words "strategic" and "tactical"

Wolverines!

34 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:55:28pm

re: #24 Etaoin Shrdlu

And no, there is not the slightest chance that Israel will ‘flatten’ Gaza. It's not what they do. Gilad Sharon's idiotic statements serve no purpose than to fuel anti-Israel propaganda.

THIS.

35 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:56:04pm

re: #31 Randall Gross

Maybe Rupert bought JPOST.

This would never run in any of Murdoch's newspapers. In the UK it would be illegal, and here in the US any such op-ed would be condemned from all sane political people, and most of the insane ones, too.

This op-ed is truly in a hateful league of its own. This is a Stalker Blog fantasy, only its in a (formerly) respectable newspaper.

36 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:57:07pm

Newsflash to Gilad Sharon. Yes, we were pretty brutal to the Japanese as well as the Germans. However, despite the brutality of it it (Dresden, Tokyo) was never our goal to "flatten" and literally annihilate either country during WWII. We flattened neither country.

37 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:58:05pm

re: #29 Vicious Babushka

What the fuck were they thinking?

Probably they were not thinking.

They were thinking "The son of a famous war hero turned prime minister calling for brutal war will get our crazies all 'rah rah' and they'll buy more newspapers."

38 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:00:00pm

Curtis LeMay however wanted to "fry" Cuba. And that was before any missile was shot. Of course we're talking some serious doomsday events back in 1962. 13 days. I think one can easily say that they could support a ground invasion of Gaza (not supporting this here) but still oppose the notion of "flattening" Gaza.

39 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:00:19pm

re: #37 Dark_Falcon

They were thinking "The son of a famous war hero turned prime minister calling for brutal war will get our crazies all 'rah rah' and they'll buy more newspapers."

At what cost? They just gave a HUGE gift to every Israel hater in the world.

40 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:01:15pm

Same paper, different article justifying the IDF skirting of the Geneva convention.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

They seem to have become quite a bit more sanguine than I recall from previous conflicts.

41 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:02:46pm

re: #38 Gus

Only you would find a way to bring up Curtis Lemay.

Impressive.

42 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:02:50pm

re: #40 Randall Gross

Same paper, different article justifying the IDF skirting of the Geneva convention.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

They seem to have become quite a bit more sanguine than I recall from previous conflicts.

Ugh.

43 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:02:59pm

re: #35 Dark_Falcon

I wouldn't put anything past Murdoch, but up-dinged for the rest.

44 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:03:09pm

re: #41 researchok

Only you would find a way to bring up Curtis Lemay.

Impressive.

I saw DF and got inspired. //

45 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:06:15pm

re: #39 CuriousLurker

At what cost? They just gave a HUGE gift to every Israel hater in the world.

They may not care. There's no way to justify what the JPost has allowed to run, none at all. It's a strategy deliberate destruction even more horrible than that used by General Sherman. Sherman, at least, did not believe in the mass killing of Southerners, while Gilad Sharon clearly does believe in the mass killing of Palestinians.

46 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:06:44pm

I wonder how many new wannabe shaheeds were born with this article? Gah. I'm out for a while.

47 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:07:04pm

re: #40 Randall Gross

I'm of mixed feelings here- how do you address concepts that weren't even considered when the Convention was drafted?

48 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:07:32pm

re: #46 CuriousLurker

I wonder how many new wannabe shaheeds were born with this article? Gah. I'm out for a while.

More "recruiting material" I'm afraid.

49 Buck  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:08:00pm

It is nice that you are safe and warm where you are. No air raid sirens, no rockets raining down on you and your loved ones, family and friends.

I imagine that many of the Londoners during the blitz expressed a desire to flatten Berlin, maybe all of Germany.

Maybe we should not be so fast to judge those who are living in a war...actually crouching in the foxhole.

He doesn't have his finger on a button. He is not a political leader. He is an Israeli citizen in a war. His father is still in a coma. An enemy that makes calls for his peoples genocide part of their daily mantra.

I don't agree with his outburst, and I think it is an outburst. However I know what is going on in Syria. I know what Iran did when they wanted to put down an uprising. I know what many countries did, and would do when faced with 60+ years of constant threat of terror.

I don't judge him. He is young. There is a cure for that.

50 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:08:07pm

re: #43 CuriousLurker

I wouldn't put anything past Murdoch, but up-dinged for the rest.

He'd do it if he thought it would gain him something, but he's smart enough to know that such an op-ed would only end up hurting him, so he wouldn't do it. He's crazy, but crazy like a fox.

51 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:08:37pm

re: #46 CuriousLurker

re: #48 Gus

THere were no shortages prior to teh article.

Take that to the bank.

52 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:09:46pm

re: #49 Buck

That actually made sense.

However, that doesn't mean redemption.

53 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:11:29pm

re: #49 Buck

I disagree, vehemently. Gilad Sharon is not a child, he's old enough to know how vile this talk is. He can absolutely be judged for suggesting a tactic that would have found favor with Hitler*.

*: A op-ed suggesting mass-killing is severe enough that bringing up Hitler is not a Godwin's Law violation.

54 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:14:26pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

I disagree, vehemently. Gilad Sharon is not a child, he's old enough to know how vile this talk is. He can absolutely be judged for suggesting a tactic that would have found favor with Hitler*.

*: A op-ed suggesting mass-killing is severe enough that bringing up Hitler is not a Godwin's Law violation.

Boom!

55 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:14:52pm

re: #51 researchok

re: #48 Gus

THere were no shortages prior to teh article.

Take that to the bank.

So, what, a few hundred or thousand more don't matter? Tell that to the future Israelis that end up scraping their loved one's body parts off the street.

Fuck it, this shit is madness. I've had enough. I'm out.

56 Buck  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:15:29pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Fine, we disagree.

Sleep well, sleep safe.

57 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:15:46pm

re: #55 CuriousLurker

So, what, a few hundred or thousand more don't matter? Tell that to the future Israelis that end up scraping their loved one's body parts off the street.

Fuck it, this shit is madness. I've had enough. I'm out.

Later CL!

58 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:15:59pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

I would agree with that....

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

But what was the logic of torching Atlanta, Columbia, and the other cities that slipped my mind?

Weren't at least a few of those accidental? Though during the march he was doing exactly what the fighters in the 30 Years War did.

59 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:16:15pm

Hamas is mostly young, under thirty, I judge them to be mostly evil. I don't cut Sharon slack either. If you don't make critical judgments and call out evil as you see it then you are failing in one of the prime necessities of our civilization & times.

60 ThomasLite  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:16:27pm

re: #40 Randall Gross

Same paper, different article justifying the IDF skirting of the Geneva convention.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

They seem to have become quite a bit more sanguine than I recall from previous conflicts.

Uuh, I see an article making the point that a civilian installation, appropriated for military purposes, becomes a military target.
That's not wingnuttery, that's a generally accepted doctrine.
See art 52 of that very protocol mentioned, just for example:

...military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.

What exactly about the article you're quoting is so objectionable?
As far as I can see it aligns pretty well with what I was taught in intl. law classes.

61 Buck  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:18:47pm

I take back the young part.

Seems he is my age... b 1966

62 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:19:47pm

re: #59 Randall Gross

Hamas is mostly young, under thirty, I judge them to be mostly evil. I don't cut Sharon slack either. If you don't make critical judgments and call out evil as you see it then you are failing in one of the prime necessities of our civilization & times.

If Hamas isn't evil then I think the word has lost all meaning.

63 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:22:42pm

re: #60 ThomasLite

Seems like pretty thin rationalization to me, but that's why I used "skirting" instead of "breaking" or "ignoring". They are in a legal grey zone, and different international courts would no doubt read this one different ways. I think they should take better care when targeting objectives near journalists.

64 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:24:43pm

re: #58 ProGunLiberal

I would agree with that....

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

But what was the logic of torching Atlanta, Columbia, and the other cities that slipped my mind?

Weren't at least a few of those accidental? Though during the march he was doing exactly what the fighters in the 30 Years War did.

No, he wasn't. The Union army under Sherman did loot and did burn, but they did not murder and they absolutely did not rape.

65 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:26:21pm

re: #64 Dark_Falcon

No, he wasn't. The Union army under Sherman did loot and did burn, but they did not murder and they absolutely did not rape.

There was some rape, but rapists were executed.

66 Skandal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:26:50pm

re: #14 CuriousLurker

Exactly true.

Youtube Video
67 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:29:02pm

re: #64 Dark_Falcon

Okay, that was 2 part response.

FIrst was agreement on Gilad Sharon, and the second was wondering about the logic of using Atlanta, Columbia, and others as kindling.

68 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:29:15pm

re: #65 Vicious Babushka

There was some rape, but rapists were executed.

You're right. Rape was quite rare during the US Civil War and both North and South executed any of their soldiers found guilty of that crime.

69 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:33:12pm

A simple message then is needed.

Gilad Sharon doesn't speak for Israel.

70 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:33:26pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I should have split that into 2 posts, shouldn't I.

In any case, now you have me looking at the contributions of the various states during the Civil War.

Apparently, 10% of Vermont went off to fight.

71 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:35:14pm

re: #67 ProGunLiberal

Okay, that was 2 part response.

FIrst was agreement on Gilad Sharon, and the second was wondering about the logic of using Atlanta, Columbia, and others as kindling.

The logic of destroying Atlanta and Jackson (Miss) was to deny the South their use as hubs of transportation and industry. It was part Sherman's plan to win the war by breaking the ability and will of the Confederacy to continue the war.

Columbia, South Carolina was destroyed as a punishment for being the first state to secede and having then urged other southern states to do likewise. It was basically that South Carolina had "sown the wind and now deserved to reap the whirlwind."

72 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:37:44pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

Ah, now that makes sense. Can't really argue with the logic that Columbia kinda had it coming.

73 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:38:58pm

Time for me to get some sleeps goodnite all, be safe.

74 ThomasLite  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:41:20pm

re: #63 Randall Gross

Seems like pretty thin rationalization to me, but that's why I used "skirting" instead of "breaking" or "ignoring". They are in a legal grey zone, and different international courts would no doubt read this one different ways. I think they should take better care when targeting objectives near journalists.

No it's not, it's taught as perfectly valid doctrine at my (european) law school with a bit of a reputation in international law (Leiden, if you must know).

it's not skirting, it's not being creative; it's well within bounds. Objects or installations used for military purposes can be treated as such. How is that even controversial? If not I can assure you there'd be some rather large "amusement park" signs and zoning codes on every last single military base ever, to give a bit of a hyperbolic example. :)

75 Skandal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:45:45pm

re: #69 Gus

Benjamin of Tudela Benjamin of Tudela ‏@BenjaminTudela

@JeffreyGoldberg @blakehounshell as a current idf reservist, reading at 2 am, im willing 2 state that sharon does not represent us.

76 dragonath  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:53:06pm

re: #74 ThomasLite

Yes, I suppose European history has quite the history of rationalizing warfare.

77 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:55:45pm

re: #75 Skandal

Benjamin of Tudela Benjamin of Tudela ‏@BenjaminTudela

@JeffreyGoldberg @blakehounshell as a current idf reservist, reading at 2 am, im willing 2 state that sharon does not represent us.

Retweeted.

78 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:00:56pm

re: #74 ThomasLite

It is not well within bounds, it's at the very edge of the convention, and I will continue to call it skirting.

79 Bob Levin  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:05:35pm

My general policy when reading Israeli papers is to skip the editorial/opinion sections. For this reason. It's always possible to find some individual with any opinion.

Way back when (there was no internet), opinion pieces were written because they better expressed a sentiment present within the greater population. Not no more.

The piece shouldn't have been published. The only reason I can see for it making print is that his father orchestrated the evacuation of Gaza. Still, I think a policy of editorial skipping is wise because there's absolutely nothing to be gained.

The only salient question when reading a newspaper is whether the articles themselves are trustworthy. That's it.

80 Bob Levin  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:07:44pm

re: #78 Randall Gross

You know very well that Hamas stores weapons and missiles, just about everywhere. And they are particularly fond of using hospitals and school buildings. It's sad, but that is their tactic. Call it evil, but that is their tactic.

81 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:09:59pm

Hits up button.

82 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:13:14pm

re: #78 Randall Gross

Let's remember how Europe did war prior to WWII. Rules weaseling was done there for who knows how long.

Hell, up until WWII, you could make the argument that Europe was the basketcase of the planet.

83 philosophus invidius  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:15:00pm

re: #80 Bob Levin

You know very well that Hamas stores weapons and missiles, just about everywhere. And they are particularly fond of using hospitals and school buildings. It's sad, but that is their tactic. Call it evil, but that is their tactic.

Although the question of whether a police station or hospital is being used by the enemy as a military instalation is important, it isn't the only question. I direct you to Article 51(5)(b) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions:

5. Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:

(b) an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

84 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:22:29pm

I see that this Page has been promoted. Congrats, Thanos!

86 Bob Levin  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:22:46pm

re: #83 philosophus invidius

Yes, this would apply to the rocket attacks by Hamas which have been taking place for years.

87 bratwurst  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:22:49pm

re: #61 Buck

I take back the young part.

Seems he is my age... b 1966

Maybe there is still time for BOTH of you to wise up a bit.

88 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:23:32pm

re: #5 Elias

Disgusting but "flattening Gaza" is not genocide.

Legalistic quibbles aside, it would mean mass murder.

89 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:24:02pm

re: #82 ProGunLiberal

Seriously, how many times between the 100 Years War and WWII did Europe end up devolving into a massive, continental wide circuses? The worst one even ended up getting the Ottomans involved.

Hell, our own war for independence turned into one of these circuses.

90 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:24:22pm

Slight difference in that the US and Japan had been engaged in total open war for several years before Hiroshima and Nagasaki, plus no one really had a frame of reference for what those bombings meant until after they happened.

Calling for entire civilian neighborhoods to be leveled is just evil shit.

91 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:24:28pm

re: #5 Elias

Disgusting but "flattening Gaza" is not genocide.

this is a distinction without a difference

92 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:25:39pm

We need to flatten

weak and cowardly people always think that all problems can be solved with enough violence

93 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:25:48pm

Definition time:

genocide |ˈjenəˌsīd| noun

the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Yes, he absolutely is calling for genocide, people.

94 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:25:49pm

I think it speaks volumes for LGF that we can have a discussion on this topic, with varying opinions, and not have it devolve into a flamewar. Feel free to pat yourselves on your backs.

95 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:26:49pm

re: #94 Four More Tears

Feel free to pat yourselves on your backs.

I'm not that flexible anymore, you SON OF A BITCH!
///

96 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:27:47pm

re: #85 Charles Johnson

The Jawa Report: Full Circle: LGF Now Defending Palliwood

An old Muslim woman had "fake bullets" in Sadr City. A middle aged Christian president had "fake WMDs" on the other other side of the globe. Guess who died more?

97 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:29:17pm

re: #89 ProGunLiberal

And to add another thought, even with Saudi's and Iran's poison, and with the rather tense situation with Israel, the Middle East has been more peaceful than Europe was for much of that 400-500 year period I just mentioned.

Wow, my ancestors were dumbasses.

98 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:30:29pm

Just to pile on a little bit more about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, even if the US did not invade the Home Islands (which I think is probably the way it would have happened) continuing the blockade would still have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands anyway, not to mention the fates of Allied prisoners in the hands of the Japanese. What Sharon suggests is so completely disproportionate to the scale of the war to date. Besides, it's just this type of overreaction (see administration, Bush, George W.) that would give the terrorists everything they could want and more. You think the guys firing rockets at Israel give two shits about what happens to their brothers?

99 philosophus invidius  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:32:10pm

re: #86 Bob Levin

Yes, this would apply to the rocket attacks by Hamas which have been taking place for years.

Those attacks violate just about every single provision of humanitarian law. But I just wanted to remind everyone that aiming at a legitimate military target is only a necessary but not a sufficient condition for adherence to the law.

100 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:32:12pm

re: #98 SteveMcG

Just to pile on a little bit more about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, even if the US did not invade the Home Islands (which I think is probably the way it would have happened) continuing the blockade would still have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands anyway, not to mention the fates of Allied prisoners in the hands of the Japanese. What Sharon suggests is so completely disproportionate to the scale of the war to date. Besides, it's just this type of overreaction (see administration, Bush, George W.) that would give the terrorists everything they could want and more. You think the guys firing rockets at Israel give two shits about what happens to their brothers?

bush never even got close to this level of stupid. In part because he's not a hater, it takes hate to lose sight of your humanity in the way Gilad Sharon has.

101 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:33:28pm

re: 100 dark falcon

bush never even got close to this level of stupid. In part because he's not a hater, it takes hate to lose sight of your humanity in the way Gilad Sharon has.

Did you forget about Operation Iraqi Freedom?

102 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:34:59pm

re: #99 philosophus invidius

Format went crazy on that.

103 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:35:10pm

re: #27 Gus

Twitchy team is on it!

Right. This makes sense. Yep, sure it does.

Consider the source. Malkin is the evil harpy who defends internment camps.

No surprise she'd defend something like this.

104 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:37:14pm

re: #101 SteveMcG

Did you forget about Operation Iraqi Freedom?

Stupid, misguided, horrific in consequence, one of the worst international actions of the last few decades. Not an intentional act of genocide.

Take note of the date and time, I just defended the foreign policy of George W. Bush. Now there's some perspective on this one.

105 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:38:51pm

A Twitter discussion about Chris Christie includes this:

106 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:39:25pm

Yup. Chris Christie is as bad as me.

That's pretty fuckin' bad.

107 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:39:51pm

re: #106 Charles Johnson

How do you feel about Bruce Springsteen?

109 electrotek  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:40:08pm

re: #85 Charles Johnson

Does anyone even visit that cesspool of a site still? I thought it disappeared.

110 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:40:31pm

re: #105 Charles Johnson

A Twitter discussion about Chris Christie includes this:

[Embedded content]

So Chris Christie doing his damn job during a crisis and being respectful and thankful towards the POTUS for his help means that Christie now needs to be exiled and considered an evil leftist or something?

God, these people lack all perspective.

111 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:41:07pm

I don't see how anyone who urges the Israelis to emulate Hamas can consider themselves a friend of Israel.

112 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:41:27pm

re: #107 jaunte

How do you feel about Bruce Springsteen?

I played on one of his Telecasters once.

113 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:41:39pm

He's really gotta go

chistie's not the kind of person to let himself get pushed around

if they push him too far, he might turn the tables on them and run as a democrat

114 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:41:58pm

I don't consider Sharon's piece a call for genocide. Carpet bombing Gaza would be comparable to our razing of German and Japanese cities long ago. I would call that genocide either. But Sharon falls into the same idiotic notion that if you bomb them enough, you'll win. We won WW2 because we did a lot more than just bomb the snot out of our enemies. Keep in mind, also that winning a war means winning the peace. By that measure we did not win WW1, because the 1919 Peace Treaty of Versailles only led to more war.

115 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:42:53pm

Iran expects region to arm Palestinians against Israel

“Although political measures taken by the regional countries are admirable, they are definitely not sufficient,” Larijani said in remarks reported by the official IRNA news agency.

“It is expected of them that they send serious military aid to the Palestinians… why should Islamic countries not send weapons to Palestine?” he asked, saying Israel receives such aid from the US and Western countries.

Larijani also said regional states sending weapons to Syrian rebels should redirect that aid, without naming any countries.

116 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:43:25pm

re: #114 SteveMcG

I don't consider Sharon's piece a call for genocide. Carpet bombing Gaza would be comparable to our razing of German and Japanese cities long ago.

Please. That was a global war of titans. There were no other avenues open, at least not that were clear at the time.

This is a giant stepping on an ant because he can.

117 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:43:42pm

re: #115 Kragar

Iran expects region to arm Palestinians against Israel

Not now! We can't handle all of this information.

118 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:43:43pm

re: 113

He does have to win re-election in a blue state if he wants any shot at higher office.

119 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:44:05pm

re: #114 SteveMcG

I don't consider Sharon's piece a call for genocide.

"Flatten all of Gaza."

How is that not a call to kill every person in Gaza? Can you "flatten all of Gaza" without killing millions of people? I don't think so.

120 dragonath  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:46:02pm

re: #111 jaunte

I don't see how anyone who urges the Israelis to emulate Hamas can consider themselves a friend of Israel.

This, a million times.

121 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:47:03pm

re: #118 SteveMcG

re: 113

He does have to win re-election in a blue state if he wants any shot at higher office.

If he keeps doing stuff like this, his re-election in a blue state should be easier:

[Link: www.nbc.com...]

122 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:47:15pm

I remember in the wake of 9/11 hearing plenty of people call for flattening Afghanistan, even turning the whole Middle East intop a parking lot. I didn't take them literally then. I understand that Sharon wants payback, and the victims of that payback don't have to be complicit. But I just can't make that leap in my understanding of his piece. I don't see him advocating going Slobodan Milosevic on their asses.

123 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:47:22pm

Front Page on the Huffington Post

124 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:48:34pm

re: #122 SteveMcG

No. We don't joke about these things.

125 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:48:37pm

People who support Israel need to speak out LOUDLY against this kind of evil thinking. I'm heartsick about this.

126 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:49:49pm

I think we're on the verge of nitpicking whether it's mass murder or genocide, which is meaningless to its victims.

127 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:49:56pm

re: #122 SteveMcG

I remember in the wake of 9/11 hearing plenty of people call for flattening Afghanistan, even turning the whole Middle East intop a parking lot. I didn't take them literally then.

I remember off the cuff throwaway statements by people who should know better. I don't remember any editorials by moderately famous political-like-people being run in mainstream newspapers.

Come on.

128 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:50:56pm

re: 124

Just trying to put my impression of genocide into a few words.

129 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:53:31pm

I can't remember newspaper pieces either, but I listened to plenty of talk radio and never heard any pushback from hosts. All to often editorials advocating measured response were ridiculed by the right.

130 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:53:31pm

re: #91 engineer cat

this is a distinction without a difference

Seriously. When you're calling for flattening an area filled with millions of people, that's calling for genocide. Why is this so hard to understand?

It's awful and irresponsible and just plain fucking nuts to not only write an editorial saying this, but to publish it is beyond the pale.

131 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:55:15pm

re: #94 Four More Tears

I think it speaks volumes for LGF that we can have a discussion on this topic, with varying opinions, and not have it devolve into a flamewar. Feel free to pat yourselves on your backs.

there is only about 18 inches between a pat on the back or a kick in the ass

132 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:57:04pm

re: #122 SteveMcG

I remember in the wake of 9/11 hearing plenty of people call for flattening Afghanistan, even turning the whole Middle East intop a parking lot. I didn't take them literally then.

I'm curious why not? Those people were gigantic assholes, expressing the deepest wish of their enormously rotten souls.

I understand that Sharon wants payback, and the victims of that payback don't have to be complicit. But I just can't make that leap in my understanding of his piece. I don't see him advocating going Slobodan Milosevic on their asses.

Okay, so you want to believe he just has to be a better person than he's telling you he is. That's great, now maybe go gather up some support for that position, because right now he's coming off like just another gigantic asshole with a rotten soul who's genuinely advocating for the indiscriminate and wholesale slaughter of an entire city of human beings.

133 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:59:34pm

Turkish Islamic Scholar: 'Rocket Attacks Stupid and Pointless'

“These rocket attacks and the like are totally stupid and pointless,” he said. “They do nothing for five months and then suddenly decide to attack Israel and fire off 300 rockets. Where? At whom? What is your target? The rockets fall on the homes of innocent Israeli civilians. Where does that get you?” he asked.

“They then retaliate and hundreds or thousands of people are martyred, homes are bulldozed and children are martyred or injured. I fail to understand why they carry out such plans and why they want it. Who sets these things in motion in Palestine? And who goes along and regards these things as logical? I want to know. Have you never heard of peace, my brother?

134 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:01:59pm

re: #133 jaunte

I work the east end.

135 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:02:06pm

re: #85 Charles Johnson

The Jawa Report: Full Circle: LGF Now Defending Palliwood

Gee, it's like requiring proof that claims are true means one is "the enemy".

That is what happens when one is driven purely by the Us vs. Them mentality.

136 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:02:36pm

I did not take them literally because I felt that even those assholes know you can't kill all of them. Like I said above, we are talking about the difference between genocide and mass murder. What Sharon wants, like the gung ho overreactors of 9/11, is local power. It's easy to whip up a quick power base during a war. If you gave him the keys to the armory and go ahead and try to flatten Gaza, I dare you, I think he would back down.

137 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:02:45pm

re: #55 CuriousLurker

So, what, a few hundred or thousand more don't matter? Tell that to the future Israelis that end up scraping their loved one's body parts off the street.

Fuck it, this shit is madness. I've had enough. I'm out.

It is madness...Gilead Sharon needs a good ass-kicking and JPost should have never ran his genocidal screed to begin with.

And those who are defending him or are minimizing what he wrote should fucking be ashamed of themselves, if they are capable of shame.

This Gentile says that what Sharon was bloviating about is completely unacceptable, period, full stop.

138 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:02:47pm

If there's one thing we've learned over the past 100 years, it is to take calls for genocide literally.
Sharon needs to shut up, now.

139 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:03:33pm

re: #135 freetoken

Gee, it's like requiring proof that claims are true means one is "the enemy".

That is what happens when one is driven purely by the Us vs. Them mentality.

Why do you hate America?
/

140 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:03:55pm

re: 133

That guy seriously doesn't understand it?

141 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:04:24pm

re: #133 jaunte

Just FYI: Adnan Oktar = Harun Yahya. Surprise! ;)

142 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:05:49pm

re: #141 CuriousLurker

Just FYI: Adnan Oktar = Harun Yahya. Surprise! ;)

Oh, yeah, that choad....

143 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:05:54pm

re: #141 CuriousLurker

Hah! I won't take his word on any biology questions.

144 RadicalModerate  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:06:41pm

To all of you who are stating that the act of flattening Gaza would not be an act of genocide, consider the geographic layout and location of the Gaza Strip:

With the exception of a small (less than 8-mile) strip of land bordering Egypt, Gaza is surrounded on all sides by either the Mediterranean Sea or by Israel. If there were an invasion designed to "flatten" it, the vast majority of the nearly two million people who live there would have no escape route.

145 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:06:45pm
Youtube Video
146 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:07:18pm

Speaking of bloodthirsty kooks, here's a Freeper Madness update.

A commenter on the FEMA Camp string sums it up in a nutcase, er, shell:

Well, at least FEMA is getting practice and experience in running refugee, relocation and re-education camps. This will come in handy when the Food Stamp President and his Marxist conspirators crash the economy and institute Agenda 21.

147 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:08:40pm

re: #146 Shiplord Kirel

Speaking of bloodthirsty kooks, here's a Freeper Madness update.

A commenter on the FEMA Camp string sums it up in a nutcase, er, shell:

*headdesk...repeatedly*

148 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:09:17pm

Jill and Scott Kelley cultivated politicians as well as generals

The couple not only lavished attention on top officers from MacDill Air Force Base, but cultivated friendships with Florida politicians — even if it meant being pushy.

Thursday, a photo of then-U.S. Senate candidate Marco Rubio, with Jill Kelley and her twin sister, Natalie Khawam, on each arm, made the rounds on Twitter.

Republican Angelette Aviles tweeted the photo. She said it was taken at a March 2010 fundraiser for Rubio at an office in Tampa. The cost was $1,000 a plate.

But the twins didn't pay anything, said Aviles.

"They weren't on the guest list," she said. "They came in, took a photo with him, and left. . . . I had no idea who they were" — until she saw the women's faces in the news this week.

Rubio spokesman Alex Conant said the senator met the twins during his 2010 campaign.

"Mrs. Kelley has sent his Senate office invitations to social events, but he hasn't attended any," Conant said.

Kelley did not contribute to Rubio's campaign. Jill Kelley did give $500 to the Florida Republican Party in 2010, and Scott Kelley and Natalie Khawam each gave $250 in 2009 to Todd Marks, a Republican who ran unsuccessfully for the state House.

Also this week, the Daily Telegraph of London, citing an unnamed Republican source, said Khawam once dated former Gov. Charlie Crist.

Reached by phone, Crist said: "Consider the source."

"Didn't happen," he said. "I may have met her."

Crist said he met the Kelleys, along with Petreaus and wife, Holly, for a dinner at Bern's Steak House in Tampa. Jill Kelley — "a delightful person," Crist said — arranged the dinner.

149 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:09:58pm

re: #5 Elias

re: #49 Buck

Fuck you.

150 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:10:28pm

re: #146 Shiplord Kirel

Speaking of bloodthirsty kooks, here's a Freeper Madness update.

A commenter on the FEMA Camp string sums it up in a nutcase, er, shell:

agenda 21

151 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:12:31pm

re: #137 Ben G. Hazi

It is madness...Gilead Sharon needs a good ass-kicking and JPost should have never ran his genocidal screed to begin with.

And those who are defending him or are minimizing what he wrote should fucking be ashamed of themselves.

I'm guessing some of them didn't actually read it. I just re-read it for the 3rd time. It keeps getting worse, not better. Especially these parts (emphasis mine):

....What does a decisive victory sound like? A Tarzan-like cry that lets the entire jungle know in no uncertain terms just who won, and just who was defeated.

To accomplish this, you need to achieve what the other side can’t bear, can’t live with, and our initial bombing campaign isn’t it.

THE DESIRE to prevent harm to innocent civilians in Gaza will ultimately lead to harming the truly innocent: the residents of southern Israel. The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences. [Tough shit for the children of Gaza, I guess: Sorry, your parents fucked up, so now you have to die.] [...]

There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire.

Were this to happen, the images from Gaza might be unpleasant – but victory would be swift, and the lives of our soldiers and civilians spared. [...]

This needs to end quickly – with a bang, not a whimper.

152 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:14:07pm

re: #151 CuriousLurker

The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas.

Key dehumanization step: achieved.

153 RadicalModerate  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:14:11pm

Out of morbid curiosity, I had to venture over to Crazy Pam's site to see if she had decided to weigh in on Sharon's statements.

Not a thing on that, but is still trying to sell the whole "Palliwood" garbage, at least when she isn't fawning over a letter from prison she received recently by the EDL's Tommy Robinson, going as far as calling him a political prisoner.

154 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:14:11pm

I think I need to say one thing. re: #149 Ben G. Hazi

Fuck you.

Humus.

155 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:14:56pm

re: #49 Buck

Did 16 years in the US Army. Did you ever put your ass on the line in the Canadian Defence Forces? I doubt it, couch commando. Now STFU & STFD. Forever, preferably, since you add nothing but ill to the debate here.

156 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:16:05pm

re: #150 engineer cat

agenda 21

Looks like a good plan. I wonder if they're hiring sales agents and how much they pay.

157 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:16:17pm

re: #152 erik_t

The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas.

The guys who flew the planes into the WTC told themselves the same things about Americans for US actions overseas.

Its not a place any sane person should be going.

158 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:17:18pm

re: 155

I hate to say it but your service does not give you the right to tell somebody to get out of a debate. Your service is actually dedicated to the opposite.

159 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:17:28pm

re: #143 jaunte

Hah! I won't take his word on any biology questions.

I didn't even know that was him myself till just now. He made a good point. It's just that it was Arutz Sheva, so I checked to see who he was and lo and behold!

WTF? Someone is hooting & whooping in the hallway like a fricking monkey...

160 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:17:40pm

There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire.

how can one person embody so much ignorance about human nature?

161 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:17:47pm

re: #157 Kragar

Its not a place any sane person should be going.

It's not a place any sane person has gone.

162 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:18:09pm

re: #157 Kragar

The guys who flew the planes into the WTC told themselves the same things about Americans for US actions overseas.

Its not a place any sane person should be going.

Initiate collective punishment.

163 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:18:37pm

Nope.

164 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:19:01pm

re: #157 Kragar

The guys who flew the planes into the WTC told themselves the same things about Americans for US actions overseas.

Its not a place any sane person should be going.

EXACTLY. It's the same mindset. All Americans were guilty, so it didn't matter which ones they killed.

165 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:19:08pm

re: #158 SteveMcG

re: 155

I hate to say it but your service does not give you the right to tell somebody to get out of a debate. Your service is actually dedicated to the opposite.

Buck specifically discussed playing soldier:

Maybe we should not be so fast to judge those who are living in a war...actually crouching in the foxhole.

A civilian speaking to a soldier to explain how the soldier should feel about doing soldierly things should rightly be told to shut the fuck up.

166 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:20:13pm

Keyboard Kommando Dim Jim Hoft is hopping mad at Obama for this:

Obama: "Preferable" to avoid Israeli ground invasion of Gaza

President Barack Obama said on Sunday it would be "preferable" to avoid an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza but put the onus on Egypt and Turkey to get Hamas to halt cross-border rocket fire, saying Israel had a right to defend itself from attack.

Obama, weighing in with his first comments on the crisis, made clear he was firmly on the side of U.S. ally Israel against the Palestinian militant group, but he also seemed to appeal to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to allow more time for Middle East leaders to rein in Hamas.

167 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:20:17pm

re: #164 CuriousLurker

EXACTLY. It's the same mindset. All Americans were guilty, so it didn't matter which ones they killed.

This.

A million times this.

168 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:22:13pm

re: #162 Gus

Initiate collective punishment.

Collective punishments can be considered reasonable when you're talking about sanctions, embargoes or other diplomatic or economic pressures on a group.

It doesn't mean you target civilians.

169 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:23:18pm

I tend to look at this issue in more of a pragmatic manner. As far as the statement "The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas," goes I look at historical precedent. The Japanese and Germans fought like crazy for people from whom they would now recoil in horror. Military victories are only military victories. If you want Palestinians to stop supporting the terrorists, (explicitly or implicitly) they have to see that there is something better. In these condidtions, why should they give two shits whether or not rockets are falling in Tel Aviv? When they believe their condition truly concides with Israel's security, they'll go along.

170 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:23:29pm

re: #110 Lidane

So Chris Christie doing his damn job during a crisis and being respectful and thankful towards the POTUS for his help means that Christie now needs to be exiled and considered an evil leftist or something?

God, these people lack all perspective.

In a decade, whatever remains of the Republican Party as a US Conservative political party will probably still have Mr. Christie in it. He and I still won't agree on much but we'd be able to work together for the common good. By then, however, the teabaggers, theocrats & klansmen will either be in exile and/or in a third party which is why a decent (if wrong ;) ) man like him will be able to do his job.

171 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:26:08pm

re: #169 SteveMcG

I tend to look at this issue in more of a pragmatic manner.

The most pragmatic take on the issue is that killing a few million civilians is just ten kinds of fucked up. Full stop.

I can't believe we're still talking about this.

172 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:26:39pm

Just added a shot to the Mountain Pass Page, this one took a little more time to hit the tones I wanted.

Image: ReflectionsInMonochromatics400.jpg

173 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:26:58pm

re: #49 Buck

Ah, a voice of reason. You're not alone Buck.

174 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:27:54pm

9_9

175 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:30:10pm

re: #173 Eclectic Infidel

1. Advocating mass murder is evil.
2. Gilad Sharon is an idiot who voluntarily handed Hamas a huge propaganda victory.

176 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:30:32pm

re: #158 SteveMcG

He is not a US citizen. I never placed my ass on the line for him to insult me or any other soldier world wide.

I would not say a goddamn thing about some fucking fool American spitting in my face for serving. But Buck? He's lucky that he's TOS safe from what I'd say...

177 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:31:03pm

Apparently we have some LGF members who are fine with the idea of indiscriminate slaughter.

178 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:32:17pm

re: #175 jaunte

1. Advocating mass murder is evil.
2. Gilad Sharon is an idiot who voluntarily handed Hamas a huge propaganda victory.

Neither Buck nor myself are advocating mass murder. So he mouthed off and an international publication picked it up - it looks really bad, and it is. As someone else mentioned on this thread, such thinking leads to very bad places. Hamas already has a huge propaganda victory - Israel is attacking and photoshop is alive and well.

179 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:32:26pm

Just as a historical footnote as well, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not civilian targets the US chose to bomb to punish the Japanese, they were legitimate military targets already slated for conventional bombing before the intended invasion. Using them as examples for the targeting of civilian neighborhoods is just bad historical revisionism.

180 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:32:38pm

re: #172 Daniel Ballard

Just added a shot to the Mountain Pass Page, this one took a little more time to hit the tones I wanted.

Image: ReflectionsInMonochromatics400.jpg

Thank you, I needed that tonight.

181 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:33:07pm

re: #180 William Barnett-Lewis

Thank you, I needed that tonight.

Ditto.

182 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:34:11pm

re: #177 Charles Johnson

Apparently we have some LGF members who are fine with the idea of indiscriminate slaughter.

That would be a mistake to assume that about me (and I assume Buck as well).

This is what I liked about Buck's post at #49

He doesn't have his finger on a button. He is not a political leader. He is an Israeli citizen in a war. His father is still in a coma. An enemy that makes calls for his peoples genocide part of their daily mantra.

I don't agree with his outburst, and I think it is an outburst. However I know what is going on in Syria. I know what Iran did when they wanted to put down an uprising. I know what many countries did, and would do when faced with 60+ years of constant threat of terror.

I don't judge him. He is young. There is a cure for that.

183 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:35:33pm

re: #179 Kragar

Just as a historical footnote as well, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not civilian target the US chose to bomb to punish the Japanese, they were legitimate military targets already slated for conventional bombing before the intended invasion. Using them as examples for the targeting of civilian neighborhoods is just bad historical revisionism.

Yes, and in one of the greatest ironies of the Pacific theater, Nagasaki was home to one of the largest Christian populations in Japan. Almost directly under ground zero...

184 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:35:45pm

When I mouth off, curiously, I do it with my mouth. I don't type it up, reconsider, give it the big ol' stamp of approval, send it off to a newspaper, have them give it the big ol' stamp of approval, and then publish it.

185 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:37:04pm

re: #184 erik_t

When I mouth off, curiously, I do it with my mouth. I don't type it up, reconsider, give it the big ol' stamp of approval, send it off to a newspaper, have them give it the big ol' stamp of approval, and then publish it.

If only magic wands existed. Hopefully he will learn from this awful mistake.

186 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:37:58pm

re: #182 Eclectic Infidel

Except that Gilad Sharon isn't some young college kid. He was born in 1966.

He should damn well know better than to advocate genocide.

187 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:39:17pm

re: #186 Lidane

Except that Gilad Sharon isn't some young college kid. He was born in 1966.

He should damn well know better than to advocate genocide.

Gilad Sharon is older than some of my professional colleagues' fathers.

188 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:40:48pm

re: #182 Eclectic Infidel

Sharon isn't some wet-behind-the-ears kid, he's in his mid-40s.

Words have meaning and I suspect he knows that by now.

189 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:41:34pm

re: 177

If you think I'm ok with indiscrimiate slaughter, you're mistaken. I already acknowledged that the victims won't care whether they were the victims of genocide or mass murder. We've seen this debate before, and how badly it turned out for us. Sharon and his ilk would never acknowledge their side as advocating genocide. That debate is ultimately a distraction from what is most important, that of finding a direction for Israel to defend itself from attack and also finding a way to get the populace of Gaza from either active or passive support of Hamas.
The idea that Israel will kill a million people in Gaza is not credible, even if Sharon were somehow magically put in power. "Millions" require neclear weapons. and Israel will not use nuclear weapons right next to its own border. What Sharon advocates is a wave of violence that will do nothing to make Israel more secure, instead quite the opposite.

190 philosophus invidius  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:42:21pm

re: #185 Eclectic Infidel

If only magic wands existed. Hopefully he will learn from this awful mistake.

You think this is not his considered view?

191 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:43:11pm

What a bunch of crap. This isn't a child who made an innocent mistake, it's an adult from an influential family who is quite literally calling for mass murder of a civilian population.

It's disgusting. And almost as bad to see people trying to make excuses for it.

192 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:43:59pm

re: #189 SteveMcG

re: 177

If you think I'm ok with indiscrimiate slaughter, you're mistaken. I already acknowledged that the victims won't care whether they were the victims of genocide or mass murder. We've seen this debate before, and how badly it turned out for us. Sharon and his ilk would never acknowledge their side as advocating genocide. That debate is ultimately a distraction from what is most important, that of finding a direction for Israel to defend itself from attack and also finding a way to get the populace of Gaza from either active or passive support of Hamas.
The idea that Israel will kill a million people in Gaza is not credible, even if Sharon were somehow magically put in power. "Millions" require neclear weapons. and Israel will not use nuclear weapons right next to its own border. What Sharon advocates is a wave of violence that will do nothing to make Israel more secure, instead quite the opposite.

Yes or no question: Do you agree with with Sharon said or his "tone"?

193 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:44:04pm

This issue makes me unfathomably angry, and I share nothing with Palestinians other than a double helix. I cannot fathom how CL etc. are able to hold their tongues and stay above the fray.

It's inspirational on a foul and hateful night.

194 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:44:07pm

re: 179

As a quick historical note, the entire strategy of firebombing Japanese cities was directed solely at civilians. Stategic bombing was having almost no effect. After all, civilians made the weapons, the kamikaze planes, hell civilians even become soldiers when they get big enough.

195 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:44:14pm

re: #182 Eclectic Infidel

That would be a mistake to assume that about me (and I assume Buck as well).

This is what I liked about Buck's post at #49

He's the 46 year old son of an ex Prime Minister. He should know better. And an outburst is what you say when drunk, anonymously on the internet or in private to your shocked and embarrassed family during the holidays. He chose sit down, compose this bit of indiscriminate murder advocacy and then hit the send button, emailing it to JPost with his full name attached, hoping it would be published and disseminated to the widest possible audience.

196 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:44:32pm

re: #191 Charles Johnson

What a bunch of crap. This isn't a child who made an innocent mistake, it's an adult from an influential family who is quite literally calling for mass murder of a civilian population.

It's disgusting. And almost as bad to see people trying to make excuses for it.

No. Fucking. Shame.

197 lostlakehiker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:45:19pm

re: #8 Randall Gross

If there are people in it as you flatten it, it's genocide. It's no different than the Serbian forces blindly firing heavy artillery into the apartment buildings of Sarajevo.

Much hangs on how the word is defined. Here is the original definition, by the man who coined the word.

Raphael Lemkin in his masterpiece "Axis Rule in Occupied Europe" (1943) invented the term "genocide,"by combining "genos" (race, people) and "cide" (to kill).

Lemkin defined genocide as follows: "Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, [etc]" The preamble to the CPPCG states that instances of genocide have taken place throughout history,[3] but it was not until Raphael Lemkin coined the term and the prosecution of perpetrators of the Holocaust at the Nuremberg trials that the United Nations agreed to the CPPCG which defined the crime of genocide under international law.

Now first, a disclaimer: there are other lines between right and wrong than "genocide". Israel, quite properly, abstains from the kind of indiscriminate bombing and shelling of Gaza that the author calls for. There is no military necessity for such measures. They would be cruel and utterly disproportionate to the harm Israel is now enduring. Sharon fils' call for such action is reprehensible.

On the other hand, if we're talking just semantics---just "which word fits the proposed crime", that's not such a clear thing.

The Union siege of Vicksburg would not have been termed genocide, had the word been available, because Vicksburg was one city out of many in the Confederacy and the siege was seen as an incident in a wider war.

The city was heavily shelled. People took to living in caves dug into the bluffs, for there was nowhere safe above ground. There was no food, and people starved. The price of rat meat became unaffordable.

The military aim of that siege was to force the surrender of the belligerents quartered there, Pemberton's Confederate garrison. It was not to depopulate the city.

So, by analogy, you could argue that the hypothetical deed under discussion would not be "genocide".

On the other hand...Gaza can also be seen as a nation. (A city-state?) It has its own government, Hamas. Not a nice government, but its own. From this perspective, inflicting wide and thorough damage on Gaza, as contemplated, would undermine the physical existence of the people there to the point that they'd have to move.

So, from that perspective, yes, it would be genocide. The looser current definition of "genocide" would surely include Sharon's "plan", but it is in my view an unfortunate definition. It parallels the word-inflation that has surrounded the term "weapons of mass destruction". Originally, these meant nuclear weapons. The new, wider definition deflates the seriousness of the nukes themselves. We forget how big they are.

But turn it around. What is the war aim of Hamas? From the very perspective that leads to the conclusion that Sharon's proposed war aim is genocide of Gaza, Hamas' war aim is genocide. The want Israel destroyed. They want to erode Israel to the point that it cannot exist as the nation it now is. That is their avowed, declared aim. The fact that they cannot, of their own strength, achieve this is perhaps relevant, for it makes their war talk a mere bloody fantasy.

198 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:45:22pm

re: #180 William Barnett-Lewis

re: #181 CuriousLurker

The election season was divisive and ugly thanks to the TP. But at that nobody died.

Now this is hard on our hearts and our minds. As much as I love our coast, sometimes the uphill ride is the one to take to leave glass, steel and concrete behind and recharge. Gives me some clarity to approach the news again.

199 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:45:48pm

I cannot believe I'm still seeing comparisons to World War Fucking Two. All concern and hope and happy thoughts to the Israeli citizens who are currently under fire, but come the fuck on. Nobody can make an intellectually honest comparison with a straight face.

200 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:45:59pm

He is young. There is a cure for that.

rash words fly out of one's mouth and do their damage. there is no cure for that, mostly

201 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:46:17pm

re: #195 goddamnedfrank

He's the 46 year old son of an ex Prime Minister. He should know better.

He knows exactly what he's doing and jpost is playing Faux for him.

202 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:46:34pm

re: #188 Ben G. Hazi

Sharon isn't some wet-behind-the-ears kid, he's in his mid-40s.

Words have meaning and I suspect he knows that by now.

I don't doubt that, but I also don't doubt he is filled with much anger as well. His internal sense of ethics didn't kick in as it should and that's a fair indication his emotions got the better of him. Still, he has no power to do *anything* whatsoever. Other hardliners may agree with him, but again, so what?

After all, for all the rage directed at this one person's comments in the JP, shouldn't there be equal rage against the Hamas Charter?

203 JAFO  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:47:15pm

I'm trying to keep my JAFO status, but I gotta say that's not helping.

204 philosophus invidius  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:47:26pm

To people who say that this 46 year-old child is just letting off some steam, I would ask you:

Would you be willing to offer the same excuses to those who call for the destruction of Israel and worse?

205 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:48:13pm

re: #203 JAFO

I'm trying to keep my JAFO status, but I gotta say that's not helping.

Your name Richard Lymangood?

///

206 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:48:58pm

re: #204 philosophus invidius

To people who say that this 46 year-old child is just letting off some steam, I would ask you.

Would you be willing to offer the same excuses to those who call for the destruction of Israel and worse?

There is a chasm of difference between what one person says and what is in the Hamas Charter.

207 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:49:39pm

re: #206 Eclectic Infidel

There is a chasm of difference between what one person says and what is in the Hamas Charter.

MBF harder.

208 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:50:14pm

re: #202 Eclectic Infidel

Still, he has no power to do *anything* whatsoever.

He can vote, just like the 44.45% of Palestinians that elected Hamas to power in 2006. That alone was enough for him to assign blanket culpability on the entire population of Gaza for Hamas's actions.

209 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:50:47pm

re: #208 goddamnedfrank

He can vote, just like the 44.45% of Palestinians that elected Hamas to power in 2006. That alone was enough for him to issue blanket culpability on the entire population of Gaza for Hamas's actions.

DAMN YOUR EFFEMINATE MATH

210 philosophus invidius  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:50:49pm

re: #199 erik_t

I cannot believe I'm still seeing comparisons to World War Fucking Two. All concern and hope and happy thoughts to the Israeli citizens who are currently under fire, but come the fuck on. Nobody can make an intellectually honest comparison with a straight face.

To be fair, I don't think anyone is supposing that Hamas rockets are going to destroy Israel. The worry is more about the future surrounded by neighbors who at least say they want to destroy Israel.

211 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:51:03pm

re: #208 goddamnedfrank

He can vote, just like the 44.45% of Palestinians that elected Hamas to power in 2006. That alone was enough for him to assign blanket culpability on the entire population of Gaza for Hamas's actions.

There's no comparison here.

212 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:51:24pm

re: #202 Eclectic Infidel

I don't doubt that, but I also don't doubt he is filled with much anger as well. His internal sense of ethics didn't kick in as it should and that's a fair indication his emotions got the better of him. Still, he has no power to do *anything* whatsoever. Other hardliners may agree with him, but again, so what?

After all, for all the rage directed at this one person's comments in the JP, shouldn't there be equal rage against the Hamas Charter?

So, every time that anyone criticizes Sharon for this bullshit screed of his in the JPost, they have to condemn the Hamas Charter in the same breath before their "rage" can be considered genuine?

Fuck that, fuck Sharon and his fellow warpigs, fuck Hamas, and fuck you for insulting my intelligence.

213 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:51:26pm

re: #198 Daniel Ballard

re: #181 CuriousLurker

The election season was divisive and ugly thanks to the TP. But at that nobody died.

Now this is hard on our hearts and our minds. As much as I love our coast, sometimes the uphill ride is the one to take to leave glass, steel and concrete behind and recharge. Gives me some clarity to approach the news again.

Took a walk into the woods earlier today to make a shot and on my way back to the car I saw I gentleman with bright orange covering 50%+ of his body and carrying a rifle... I scurried back to the car! As a hunter myself, I was caught off guard by how close I was to town. Still I burned film where I wanted to and wasn't shot so I suppose the day was a win all the way around ... ;)

214 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:51:58pm

re: #212 Ben G. Hazi

Whatever.

Goodnight.

215 philosophus invidius  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:52:16pm

re: #206 Eclectic Infidel

There is a chasm of difference between what one person says and what is in the Hamas Charter.

Then why the difficulty in condemning what that one person says?

216 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:52:42pm

re: 192

Nice rhetorical trick, to try to force somebody into a "Yes or No" answer, but then you pose it as an A or B! If you read anything I wrote about Sharon, you know I reject his ideas. How many times do I have to tell you that it doesn't matter whether you were the victim of genocide or mass murder? When Sharon is able (I think successfully) to defend his statements against genocide, it actually helps legitimize his points. When George W. Bush's critics hysterically screamed that Iraqi Freedom was an oil grab, it made the job of the administration easier to sell the war because the opoosition's position was discredited. I had tried to argue against the war on practical grounds, but was always disregarded as a KosKid or something like that. It was a shitty debate that led us into the Iraq War, and if you let Sharon distort the debate about Gaza, it will only make things worse.

217 makeitstop  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:52:48pm

re: #189 SteveMcG

"Millions" require neclear weapons.

Genocidal regimes have killed millions in the past without the aid of nuclear weapons.

218 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:53:04pm

re: #215 philosophus invidius

Then why the difficulty in condemning what that one person says?

Because, despite their protestations and dancing around the questions, they most likely agree with him.

219 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:53:19pm

re: #193 erik_t

I cannot fathom how CL etc. are able to hold their tongues and stay above the fray.

Because for the most part I've learned to step away from the keyboard when I feel my emotions taking over. They aren't helpful in a combustible discussion.

Fortunately, I have that luxury. The people of Gaza & Israel don't.

220 erik_t  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:53:41pm

re: #216 SteveMcG

How many times do I have to tell you that it doesn't matter whether you were the victim of genocide or mass murder?

Why is this pretend distinction so important to you?

221 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:54:15pm

re: #220 erik_t

Why is this pretend distinction so important to you?

Justification.

222 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:54:31pm

re: #219 CuriousLurker

Because for the most part I've learned to step away from the keyboard when I feel my emotions taking over. They aren't helpful in an combustible discussion.

Fortunately, I have that luxury. The people of Gaza & Israel don't.

Amen, sister, amen.

223 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:56:16pm

re: #206 Eclectic Infidel

There is a chasm of difference between what one person says and what is in the Hamas Charter.

what difference does this make to the children cowering under the bombardment?

It is nice that you are safe and warm where you are. No air raid sirens, no rockets raining down on you and your loved ones, family and friends.

I imagine that many of the Londoners during the blitz expressed a desire to flatten Berlin, maybe all of Germany.

Maybe we should not be so fast to judge those who are living in a war...actually crouching in the foxhole.

it seems to me, buck, that you say this without consciousness of how well it can apply to those in gaza as well

224 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:56:35pm

re: #219 CuriousLurker

Because for the most part I've learned to step away from the keyboard when I feel my emotions taking over. They aren't helpful in an combustible discussion.

Fortunately, I have that luxury. The people of Gaza & Israel don't.

Quoted for truth.

225 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:56:41pm

re: #214 Eclectic Infidel

Eh, piss off.

226 lostlakehiker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:01:45pm

re: #217 makeitstop

Genocidal regimes have killed millions in the past without the aid of nuclear weapons.

Take it further: nuclear weapons have never, ever been used in such a way as to make their use "genocide". The war plans of the U.S. and the Soviet Union were plans that, had they been executed, would have resulted in the deaths of almost everybody everywhere, but neither party can have understood the implications of stratospheric soot from burning cities. (If they had, they would not have made those plans.) [prolonged reduced sunlight reaching the earth. Years of crop failures. Hard freezes even at the equator. Bad, bad stuff.]

Both powers were thinking along the lines of "if they know I'll just do it, damn the consequences, they won't dare attack, and none of this will come to pass." And it didn't, but that was partly thanks to luck.

The wiser posture, which we are now moving toward, is to not even have enough weapons to bring that on by accident. Just enough, and well enough hidden, that a sneak nuclear attack can be responded to effectively enough that the attacker comes off decisively worse than he would have by keeping the peace.

This posture is fairly stable as long as interceptor technology doesn't get too good. After that, what deterrent? I suppose you could threaten to flame your own cities. If you did, it would hurt your enemy badly...mortally, even. But---

:-(

227 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:02:03pm

Actually I think it was "KosKook". Either way, opposition to the war was more easily brushed aside because rhetorically, one side could distort the debate. What this does is frame an attack on Gaza in any form as genocide, or at least "ethnic cleansing", which limits Israel's freedom of action. You may get so preoccupied with him that other Sharon-like figures weild influence under the radar.

228 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:08:08pm

re: #49 Buck

I already know that there's no right wing position too extreme for you to defend, but this pile of bullshit is a new low for you. Defending an explicit call for mass murder, and trying to fool people into believing this is just some callow youth making an understandable mistake, when it's a 46-year old man from a highly influential family, writing for one of the biggest Israeli papers.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

229 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:12:22pm

re: #228 Charles Johnson

I already know that there's no right wing position too extreme for you to defend, but this pile of bullshit is new low for you. Defending an explicit call for mass murder, and trying to fool people into believing this is just some callow youth making an understandable mistake, when it's a 46-year old man from a highly influential family, writing for one of the biggest Israeli papers.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

But he won't be. And that's sadder than anything he's ever posted here. As the old saying goes, "May god have mercy on your soul ..."

Good night all.

230 Destro  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:12:24pm

I, for one, am not surprised.

231 Pip's Squeak  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:12:39pm

re: #76 dragonath

Yes, I suppose European history has quite the history of rationalizing warfare.

No doubt. But there is nothing specifically 'European' about it.

232 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:13:31pm

sharon's statement here reminds me of something i read, i forget exactly where, but it was in a book about military strategy

a sure sign that an army is nearly beaten and out of ideas, it said, is when its leaders call for One Final Giant Attack that will surely put an end to the resistance of their enemy forever and ever and finally, decisively End the War

233 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:15:30pm

Other regimes have killed millions, but they had years to do it. Nobody gives two shits about Darfur or else it would stop. Israel won't have years to kill millions of Gazans. The only way for it to do so would require nukes, and that won't happen that close to their border. I also think that's a Rubicon even Israel won't cross anyway. It's one thing to try to deter a future nuclear power, but using one in Gaza makes Israel even more vulnerable in the long run.
For erik_t, I keep saying the distinction doesn't matter to the victims. You are the one hung up on the distinction. I keep arguing that killing even thousands of Gazans does not make Isael safer. All it does in ensure a steady supply of Hamas supporters.
The distinction of whether or not this constitutes genocide is ultimately meaningless. Did any of this handwringing mean anything to the Armenians, Jews, Chinese, Ukranians, Chinese (again), Cambodians, Rwandans, Nigerians, Sudanese, Bosnians and countless others I am leaving out? Don't get distracted by the G word, work the problem. Israel does not have a solution to the Gaza crisis. If it doesn't find a solution soon, somebody is going to find one for them.

234 Areopagitica  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:20:10pm

PART I

I'm prefacing my comment by saying Sharon's statement is explosive, dangerous, and practically stupid if he insinuating that the IDF bomb Gaza to the extent it kills over a million people. That being said, I have to pose the question, what is the solution to this problem, military or otherwise, given the nature of Hamas and the fact that there are iranian munitions flowing into Gaza?

We've seen these flare-ups every couple years now, some intermediary brokers a cease-fire at some point and the cycle repeats itself. Let's all keep in mind that when Israel withdrew from Gaza, it left the PLO with all those green houses and agricultural tools to start building an economy. Hamas looted everything then when the Gazans held an election, Hamas won. Has anyone noticed that there haven't been any elections in Gaza for quite some time and likely never will be. From a legal-esque perspective, this means Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Gaza strip and its chosen to endanger its entire civilian population by embedding itself within its civilian areas, use hospitals and holy sites to store weapons, carry out extra-judicial killings of its own people and launch attacks and pretty much do any and everything, that if this were two European countries, we would likely have WWIII. Many friends of mine who have and currently live in Israel have expressed frustration that the cycle continues and are fed up with an autonomous "state" in Gaza, run by religious thugs who shoot missiles at them on a frequent basis. How do Hamas' rocket attacks never seem to raise the ire of the world? (middle east aside). Is this just because they aren't as technologically and militarily advanced as the Israelis? Does the world seem to have a need for some sort of arms parity between the two sides before it decrees that any Israeli military response is "proportional" or "appropriate" to the Qassam attacks? Will the rocket attacks bring Israel down? No. But would any other country, large or small, allow another country to carry out similar conduct?

So we can all agree that Sharon's statements are pig headed, but if Hamas won't cede power to anyone, and if the Gazans who don't like Hamas have no ability to mount any kind of internal challenge to step up, what choices do the Israelis have? The UN does not support Israel nor does it have the spine to send UN troops into Gaza. Dresden-like bombing would kill massive amounts of civilians and would be condemned internationally. Targeted bombings only seem to have temporary effect in that they lead to cease fires that meltdown later on. If ground troops are sent in, it winds up being a quagmire and the IDF gets blamed if civilians are killed.....

235 Areopagitica  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:20:29pm

PART II

Hamas needs to be taken out. While I do not want to see civilians killed at all It still bothers me that Gazans can democratically elect Hamas as their government and allow that "government" to launch rockets, etc. in the name of the Gazans. I can't necessarily use the term "innocent" because Gazans didn't have to elect Hamas nor have they sought support in the international community to get rid of this cancerous "government." In past wars, civilians who allow those sorts of groups to come to power pay the consequences of their acquiescence. That's not me being some sort of cold hearted asshole, that's just what history tells us happens. For e.g. The Germans, Italians and Japanese bore great suffering because they chose to go down a path that lead to chaos, war and disaster.

If the IDF goes into Gaza, it needs to have a clear mission to completely take out Hamas and its infrastructure. If it doesn't, this cycle will just repeat itself again. Hamas has already remained in power after every round of fighting, it shouldn't be around after this bought. Military action should then be followed by immediate joint Israeli/West Bank Pals/International efforts to rebuild greenhouses and other infrastructure so the Gazans can see that there is in fact a peaceful and prosperous existence that Hamas has denied them for a decades

236 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:25:50pm

And just how do you take Hamas out? The only way to take Hamas out is to deprive it of its power base, which right now is hundreds of thousands of Gazans who blame Israel, not Hamas, for their plight. You take out Hamas now, somebody else just fills the void. All you'll acclomplish is buy a few more months of what?

237 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:27:21pm

re: #235 Areopagitica

Hamas needs to be taken out

i suggest that this is a rather oversimplified view. hamas itself is just a symptom

238 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:30:15pm

re: #234 Areopagitica

Has anyone noticed that there haven't been any elections in Gaza for quite some time and likely never will be.

Because we backed a failed coup against them.

After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.

If we weren't prepared to accept Hamas winning then we shouldn't have allowed them to run. Backing a failed coup however was the worst possible answer to a dilemma that we helped create.

From a legal-esque perspective, this means Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Gaza strip ...

Um, okay, for whatever value a "legalesque" perspective holds, sure. 44.45% of Palestinians voted for them over 6 years ago. Then, unable to accept that, we backed a failed coup to remove them from power, only to see them win that struggle as well and firmly entrench themselves as the de facto power on the ground in Gaza.

239 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:33:35pm

Democratic or not, Hamas is in power, and they don't seem to be spending much energy in protecting themselves from other Gazans. That's what's gotta change. And it's not going to change as long as Israel keeps bombing them.

240 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:36:59pm

re: #235 Areopagitica

In past wars, civilians who allow those sorts of groups to come to power pay the consequences of their acquiescence. That's not me being some sort of cold hearted asshole, that's just what history tells us happens. For e.g. The Germans, Italians and Japanese bore great suffering because they chose to go down a path that lead to chaos, war and disaster.

There's a huge difference between the thin plurality that elected Hamas, 44.45% to 41.43% for Fatah and this:

On August 19, (1934) about 95 percent of registered voters in Germany went to the polls and gave Hitler 38 million votes of approval (90 percent of the vote). Thus Adolf Hitler could claim he was Führer of the German nation by direct will of the people.

241 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:43:06pm

RE: 240 GODDAMNEDFRANK

Not sure there's a point in there. Most Germans would later say that they didn't know he was going to launch the Holocaust. I know they went along with it, but I think you can argue that in 1934, most hadn't read Mein Kampf, and even of some who did, they didn't really think he was really going to do it. Anyway, in spite of the overwhelming vote, Hitler had to devote thousands of men for the sake of personal security from other Germans, and survived many plots against him. I don't think Hamas, with only 40-odd percent of a vote, has that problem.

242 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:49:02pm

re: #241 SteveMcG

RE: 240 GODDAMNEDFRANK

Not sure there's a point in there. Most Germans would later say that they didn't know he was going to launch the Holocaust. I know they went along with it, but I think you can argue that in 1934, most hadn't read Mein Kampf, and even of some who did, they didn't really think he was really going to do it. Anyway, in spite of the overwhelming vote, Hitler had to devote thousands of men for the sake of personal security from other Germans, and survived many plots against him. I don't think Hamas, with only 40-odd percent of a vote, has that problem.

You have no goddamned clue how many resources Hamas has to dedicate to internal security. Considering how paranoid they are about collaborators it in no way appears to be something they treat as a trivial threat.

243 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:52:28pm

McCain on Benghazi: ‘I Knew It Was A Terrorist Attack From The Beginning’

Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) said that nothing he learned in a closed-door briefing Friday with former CIA Director David Petraeus would change his criticism of U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice's initial public statements about the Sept.11 Benghazi attack.

Asked Saturday at a press conference at the Halifax International Security Forum if anything he was told by Petraeus would change his assessment of what Rice knew and the statements she made, McCain said, "No, because I knew it was a terrorist attack from the beginning. People don't go to spontaneous demonstrations with mortars and RPGs."

Of course terrorist might decide to use a spontaneous demonstration as cover for their attack.

244 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:55:42pm

re: #241 SteveMcG

RE: 240 GODDAMNEDFRANK

Not sure there's a point in there. Most Germans would later say that they didn't know he was going to launch the Holocaust. I know they went along with it, but I think you can argue that in 1934, most hadn't read Mein Kampf, and even of some who did, they didn't really think he was really going to do it. Anyway, in spite of the overwhelming vote, Hitler had to devote thousands of men for the sake of personal security from other Germans, and survived many plots against him. I don't think Hamas, with only 40-odd percent of a vote, has that problem.

If you're going to drag Hitler into this, you might want to read up on exactly how popular Mein Kampf was, how explicit the Anti-Semitism was in NSDAP platform, and how anti-Semitism was already an established element in Germany society throughout the Weimar Republic, and how it was revived post-Armistice in the specific form of the Dolchstoßlegende.

Seriously, dude, no you can't "argue it" and your attempt to do so is fucking gross.

245 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:58:49pm

Deleted

246 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:59:09pm

While Hamas isn't posting rosters or anything like that about its allocation of resources, if there were any kind of significant opposition, I believe we would have heard about it and I would bet that Israel would try to exploit it. At this point I think they are only paranoid about operational security.

247 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:00:40pm

re: #245 goddamnedfrank

Deleted. Getting unproductively pissed off to the point of misreading posts.

248 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:20:59pm

Actually I have done a lot of research about interwar Germany. While anti-Semitism was rampant, most Germans didn't think it would lead to the Holocaust. There is no polling data, obviously, but I have read enough from contemporary material (not post war revisionist stuff) that most Germans thought Hitler would restore Germany's prestige.
A couple of interseting things that surprised me about my research:
Germany had to go to war before mid 1940. Its rearmament programs (which actually started in the 1920s) were sucking so much out of the economy that it had to strike when it did. Even Hitler knew that England and France would be too strong for him once they rearmed.
Reducing the German Army to 100,000 men was the worst thing for the Allies. All that happened was that Germany had a small army of its best officers and they had nothing to do but plot.
The strategic plan against France was actually a desparation move. Hitler and his highest ranking (at that time) generals feared the only way to defeat France was a decisive (Not just major, it had to be decisive) blow. Before the sickle cut plan, the German plans would have given Hitler some early tactical victories, but would not have secured the Channel ports or destroyed enough of the French Army. For all the scorn directed at the French for preparing to fight WW1 all over again, they actually had more and better tanks than the Germans. They were even prepared for a strike from the Ardennes. The difference was that the Germans managed such a complete local superiority that the French counterattacks against the Sedan breakout failed. If Germany had not won a decisive battle, the French would have adapted its doctrine and formations to adapt. Further, the Great Depression had not affected France like Britain and Germany.
Don't even get me started on the myth of appeasement.

249 sagehen  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:37:18pm

totally OT, but...

I'm watching PBS, and just as the next program is about to start (a Nova documentary about Hurricane Sandy), there's a title card that it's paid for by a donation from the David H Koch Foundation. Who apparently sponsor a lot of science-y PBS stuff. Actual legitimate science. Explaining how wonderfully accurate the computer models at the NOAA are, and why the water is 5º warmer than usual and what that means, and...

But... um...

Is cognitive dissonance the right phrase here?

(this is the same Koch, right?

250 efuseakay  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:39:32pm

Of course, he will be first in line to lead the charge, right? RIGHT?

251 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:43:05pm

re: #249 sagehen

totally OT, but...

I'm watching PBS, and just as the next program is about to start (a Nova documentary about Hurricane Sandy), there's a title card that it's paid for by a donation from the David H Koch Foundation. Who apparently sponsor a lot of science-y PBS stuff. Actual legitimate science. Explaining how wonderfully accurate the computer models at the NOAA are, and...

But... um...

Is cognitive dissonance the right phrase here?

(this is the same Koch, right?)


Yes, indeed:

Education

Koch contributed $7 million to the Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) show Nova,[34] and is a contributor to the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C., including a $20 million gift to the American Museum of Natural History, creating the David H. Koch Dinosaur Wing and a contribution of $15 million to the National Museum of Natural History to create the new David H. Koch Hall of Human Origins, which opened on the museum's 100th anniversary of its location on the National Mall on March 17, 2010.[35] In 2012, Koch contributed US $35 million to the Smithsonian to build a new dinosaur exhibition hall at the National Museum of Natural History. [36]

Koch also financed the construction of Deerfield Academy's $68 million Koch Center for mathematics, science and technology,[37] and was named the first and only Lifetime Trustee.[37]

Koch gave $10 million to the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory[38] where he was honored with the Double Helix Medal for Corporate Leadership for supporting research that, "improves the health of people everywhere".[39]

252 sagehen  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:48:23pm

re: #251 Ben G. Hazi


Yes, indeed:

And then he turns around and gives money to global warming deniers, because they'll support his views on taxes? How goddamm cynical can a billionaire be?

((BTW, it's a really good documentary... I recommend it. Very clear explanations, awesome graphics, excellent footage well edited, even the music is nicely done))

253 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:57:39pm
254 researchok  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 12:37:26am

Morning, all

255 Red Lion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 12:45:57am

re: #93 Charles Johnson

From Wikipedia, a much more narrow definition, and one I daresay does not fit Sharon's words:
Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group",[1] though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.[2]

256 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 1:29:43am

The Germans call it Sippenhaft: making the entire clan pay for the actions of individuals. It is the logic they used against "the Jews", "the Gypsies" and "the Gays".

I would like to see a world where this concept is no longer applied.

257 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 2:53:09am

re: #255 Red Lion

WTF.
Why the need to defend this disgusting shit?

258 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 3:00:17am

re: #172 Daniel Ballard

That is really nice!

259 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 3:09:54am

I'm only posting this for the photo: Clinton asks world leaders to help reduce tensions in Gaza.

Really? That's the photo they went with. "Hey, Hillary's talking on the phone with world leaders about some serious shit. I know, let's use that image of her where she looks like she's high on airplane glue."

260 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 3:19:46am

re: #173 Eclectic Infidel

Ah, a voice of reason. You're not alone Buck.

Supporting madness in a reasoned tone does not qualify as "the voice of reason".

261 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 3:46:54am

re: #259 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, that's a bad juxtaposition.

I really can't believe people are talking about 'flattening' Gaza. I really can't believe people are trying to claim the guy who did it has no influence-- he's also a Major in the IDF reserves. I can't believe that people are quibbling over whether a call to flatten the entirety of Gaza and leave it without electricity, gasoline, or moving vehicles counts as a call to genocide. I can't believe comparisons are being made to WWII. There is no comparison to the firebombing of Tokyo-- which many consider to be a war crime. There is no comparison to the use of atomic weapons against Japan-- first of all, we knew they had a nuclear program as well, and second of all the two targets chosen were military targets, even if they involved a large loss of civilian life. The main purpose was, indeed, demonstrating that we had the ability to manufacture and use plutonium bombs. I think very few people in Gaza doubt Israel's ability to flatten it, to destroy it, to completely militarily overwhelm it.

This is the sort of talk where there should be no equivocation. It shouldn't have been published, being published it should not be defended in the least.

262 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 3:54:02am

re: #255 Red Lion

Sure let us all waste our time arguing the semantics of genocide as applied to this situation. Can you consider Gaza to be "National Group?" Hmm...it does have its own government and limited autonomy. Is Gaza an ethnic group? Hmm...Arabs from the Southern region of Palestine? But do they have their own cultural identifiers or is that merely a geo-political classification? Gee we could argue about this for hours, then again people could simply use the sense they were supposedly born with to accept the word in the context it was used.

I know it is a novel idea but if you give it a chance you might find that it facilitates group conversations to some degree. :p

263 freetoken  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 3:54:27am

re: #249 sagehen

(this is the same Koch, right?

Yes.

The Kochs also sponsor Smithsonian exhibitions, including one on ... evolution.

They are not anti-science. They are just in business for themselves, and that means moving oil products, and they know that they can buy politicians. To them it's just an expense, not a moral problem.

264 Rochi613  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 3:54:32am

re: #177 Charles Johnson

Mind if I disagree with everyone?

Sharon may sound like a unequivocal, irredeemable monster to most of you, but you do not live here. And you have not gone through 20 years of Oslo nonsense resulting in many of your countrymen's death. And you have not lived with parades of suicide bombers, the endless breakage of the 'peace process' and the infinite lies of promises of cooperation spoken in English and promises of death spoken in Arabic. And you do not live surrounded by countries who for every year of your existence have tried to erase you.

I was born in New York in 1950 - I'm a 'sixties child, a song-writer, in fact. Anti-war, Anti-aggression, can't we all be friends, aren't we are all the same no matter where we live... I have lived in Israel since 1982. It took me a very long time to find words or concepts even just in thought to describe (most of) the people who surround Israel. I didn't want to believe such people existed. I feel forbidden from speaking those words here I but let me simply say this: there exist people who are beyond your ken (unless you've been a US soldier in the middle east). They do not want the same things as you.

There's a saying in Hebrew: Things that can be seen from here, can't be seen from there. A little humility, folks.

265 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 3:57:03am

Doing the math, it appears that the $53 million Sheldon Adelson spent on trying to buy this year's election could have purchased an additional Iron Dome site for Israel with enough left over to cover the cost of all the Tamir interceptors expended in the last week.

266 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 3:59:59am

re: #264 Rochi613

So what are you saying exactly, that Sharon is right, flatten Gaza?

267 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 4:00:02am

re: #264 Rochi613

There's a saying in Hebrew: Things that can be seen from here, can't be seen from there. A little humility, folks.

Special pleading is dumb.

So are you actually advocating for what Gilad Sharon is? For the mass killing of Gazans and the flattening of the area, leaving it entirely without power and transportation?

You think that then these 'people who are beyond [our] ken' will suddenly see reason, sue for peace, and Israel will have no more trouble from Gaza?

268 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 4:03:06am

re: #264 Rochi613

Mind if I disagree with everyone?

Sharon may sound like a unequivocal, irredeemable monster to most of you, but you do not live here. And you have not gone through 20 years of Oslo nonsense resulting in many of your countrymen's death. And you have not lived with parades of suicide bombers, the endless breakage of the 'peace process' and the infinite lies of promises of cooperation spoken in English and promises of death spoken in Arabic. And you do not live surrounded by countries who for every year of your existence have tried to erase you.

I was born in New York in 1950 - I'm a 'sixties child, a song-writer, in fact. Anti-war, Anti-aggression, can't we all be friends, aren't we are all the same no matter where we live... I have lived in Israel since 1982. It took me a very long time to find words or concepts even just in thought to describe (most of) the people who surround Israel. I didn't want to believe such people existed. I feel forbidden from speaking those words here I but let me simply say this: there exist people who are beyond your ken (unless you've been a US soldier in the middle east). They do not want the same things as you.

There's a saying in Hebrew: Things that can be seen from here, can't be seen from there. A little humility, folks.

I used to live in Israel. My daughter and her family live there now. My son is married to an Israeli; another son served in the IDF. My 2 oldest children and 9 of my grandchildren were born in Israel. I was there during the 1973 Yom Kippur war. So I do have skin in this game.

I have already stated my opinion that Hamas is a gang of warlords who are holding the entire people of Gaza hostage just to keep control of their criminal operations (the smuggling tunnels). The rocketing did not even begin until th Israelis had totally withdrawn from Gaza, evacuated all the Jews and turned over the high-tech greenhouses so that the Gazans could have an industry. Hamas destroyed that. Who would do that except for a criminal mob of control freaks?

It's time to start thinking out of the box. How do we get rid of Hamas with a minimum of collateral damage to the innocent civilian population?

269 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 4:08:21am

I have generally been steering clear of this due to the high emotional tides.

Sharon's op-ed was over the top crap worthy of typical blowhard solutions.

I think one reason emotions and responses are running high is that innocents are getting killed in a situation that has no apparent (and workable) solution on the immediate and possibly even long term horizon. Given human nature and the politics and religious strife of the Middle East this situation is going to continue being a running sore.

270 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 4:28:27am

If you support the flattening of Gaza, you are a monster.
No better than Hamas.
Deal with it.

271 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:00:56am

re: #270 Varek Raith

I'd rather put it "you're supporting something monstrous". I don't think we get anywhere by labeling people monsters. That's kind of part of the problem.

But this shit is getting worse. The swing Israel has taken to the right-wing means talk like this is more openly accepted now, I think, and that isn't freaking good. It undermines the work the IDF does in minimizing civilian casualties hugely.

It's also just so freaking stupid. Say they did this, they 'flattened' Gaza. Even leaving out international outrage against a bombing campaign that would destroy all the structures in Gaza-- or, if we take the most forgiving view of what he said, a campaign that destroyed all electricity generation, all sources of fuel, and all vehicles-- what would be left? Hundreds of thousands of Gazans would die, hundreds thousands would be terribly injured. That level of destruction would mean that medical aid couldn't come quickly, so in the days after this bombing campaign civilians would be dying slowly and in pain.

Even if Israel wanted to treat all the civilians injured by such a campaign, they wouldn't be able to. Even disposal of bodies would be a logistical problem, and disease would probably immediately begin sweeping through the population (and reaching into Israel, because that's disease for ya.) I doubt the Gazans left alive, surrounded by the dead and dying, would simply sue for peace. I think many would attack with whatever they could. With logistical support destroyed they'd probably be easily taken care of by Israel, but it would notch up the death toll another mark.

So then we have Gaza, a smoking ruin inhabited by widows and orphans and the injured. What does Israel do then? How do they care for those civilians? Do they just retreat and take no responsibility for the situation? Do they occupy, and deal with a population that now has credible reason to believe that Israel wants to wipe them from existence? What exactly is the end-game here?

Not only is it a monstrous idea, it's monstrously stupid.

272 Rochi613  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:09:27am

re: #267 Obdicut

Sharon is talking about how crazy we (Israelis) are for not 'giving as good as we get' - 'turn the other cheek' is not a Jewish principle. "If someone is coming to kill you, rise earlier than he and kill him" is.

The absurdities Sharon is pointing to - Israel supplying Gaza with water, electricity and food supplies while they fire-rockets at us, tiptoeing around their civilians instead of 'flattening Gaza,' which is a warlike response to warlike aggression - are real. If we acted "proportionately' to Hamas violence, Gaza deserves to be a pancake.

I have to go to work for the next 4 hours. Feel free to pummel. I'll be back.

273 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:09:27am

Some "unintentional" comic relief, a list of 12 signs that your new wife just might be hiding something from you...

Did I Marry a Lesbian?

1. Does your wife sleep with separate blankets or in a different bed?
A bride may employ tricks such as these to avoid physical intimacy. Regular intercourse is an important component of every new marriage but a potential lesbian will be fearful. Indeed, many newlyweds are quietly intimidated by the fact of the male reproductive organ. Over time, it is something the woman will need to become familiar and comfortable with.

2. Reluctant to get pregnant
Procreation is the miraculous responsibility of matrimony. Heterosexual women dream about being mothers, even if this means setting aside careers and educational pursuits.

3. Unexplained absences from the home during the day
Lesbians will seek out copulation when husbands are at work or traveling. They may brush aside these disappearances with the catch alls “I was doing my errands” and “My cell phone was out of range.” If this occurs on a regular basis, greater vigilance is likely necessary.

4. Cut-off shirts that expose armpits
Much like male homosexuals, lesbians fetishize this body part. Its odor communicates whether one is dominant (raw and unscented) or submissive (perfumed). Furthermore, women visualize its barren hollow as evocative of the folds of the labia.

5. Extravagant exercise classes
Yoga, rock climbing, spinning, salsa, kickboxing… These costly programs will give a spouse a ready excuse to spend long hours away from the home in the private company of other curious females. The sweat-drenched and bare-skinned atmosphere of the sports club changing room is ripe with lesbian flirtation and foreplay.

:D

274 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:12:22am

re: #272 Rochi613

The absurdities Sharon is pointing to - Israel supplying Gaza with water, electricity and food supplies while they fire-rockets at us, tiptoeing around their civilians instead of 'flattening Gaza,' which is a warlike response to warlike aggression - are real. If we acted "proportionately' to Hamas violence, Gaza deserves to be a pancake.

Because so much of Israel is a 'pancake'. It would not be a proportionate response, and you know it.

I like how you posit the idea of 'tiptoeing around civilians' as though it's somehow contemptible to avoid civilian casualties, rather than an obvious ideal of Jewish culture to do so.

"If someone is coming to kill you, rise earlier than he and kill him" is.

And kill his children and his mother while you're at it, eh?

Lunatic thinking. Just goddamn lunatic.

275 MMWerth  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:12:39am

Charles is right. Regardless of whether you back Israel wholly or your backing is partial or contingent on other ideas, any plan which seeks to deal with Gaza or the Palestinians in such absolutist terms is appalling.

Too many people have always approached this idea with the thought that one pure way of dealing with either side is the path forward to peace. It's up there with the "Glass the Middle East" contingent that operates in both left-leaning circles and right-leaning circles--although clearly right-leaning so-called libertarians espouse that sort of shit with more frequency. Would the peace process be easier without the current Israeli Prime Minister? Yes. Would the peace process be easier without Hamas in control? Yes. The path forward is contingent on so many different variables that are at present far from lining up.

Right now, I feel all we can reasonably push for is that Israel temper its need for revenge. That "flattening" Gaza is not reasonable. There are people in Gaza who are human beings who know no better than what they're told day in and day out about the Israelis. Two entire cultures have been created around the enemy living next door; there are Israeli and Palestinian children who are desensitized to the concept of the killing of one another.

That is propaganda for you. That is religion for you. People wonder how a thirteen year old can find happiness in the deaths of civilians across a border they've never journeyed across. Then again, I've watched the same insidious power of propaganda and religion in my home state of Arizona as it turns reasonable neighbors into believers of conspiracy theories that justify in their mind harm towards left-leaning figures in our government.

I can't dwell on that for too long without becoming incredibly sad. Nonetheless, I hope for leadership and the people. That a nation founded as a glimmer of hope in the aftermath of the madness that was WW2 won't consign a people to the dustbin of history, and that a people who live in squalor and ignorance find understanding that they'll never be on the world stage so long as they cling to radicals.

276 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:13:46am

re: #272 Rochi613

Sharon is talking about how crazy we (Israelis) are for not 'giving as good as we get' - 'turn the other cheek' is not a Jewish principle. "If someone is coming to kill you, rise earlier than he and kill him" is.

The absurdities Sharon is pointing to - Israel supplying Gaza with water, electricity and food supplies while they fire-rockets at us, tiptoeing around their civilians instead of 'flattening Gaza,' which is a warlike response to warlike aggression - are real. If we acted "proportionately' to Hamas violence, Gaza deserves to be a pancake.

I have to go to work for the next 4 hours. Feel free to pummel. I'll be back.

No. Because Hamas is not an army. They are a gang of criminal warlords. They set up around civilians as cover (which in and of itself is a war crime). Killing civilians in this case is no different from carpet bombing Somalia to get rid of the pirates. The pirates will find someplace to hide, the non-pirates won't.

277 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:14:02am

re: #273 watching you tiny alien kittens are

That's satire, so it's intentional comedy.

278 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:16:22am

Israel could send in the Russian mafia to deal with Hamas, but that would have negative blowback.

279 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:18:18am

Israelis could offer free weed! Mellow everyone out!

(I'm trying to think outside the box here, folks.)

280 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:18:57am

re: #277 Obdicut

That's satire, so it's intentional comedy.

I know but I forgot the quotations around "unintentional" when I first posted, already fixed. We get submittals from Christwire all the time and have to explain to people that it is a satirical site.

281 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:20:44am

Just to respond to some stuff well upthread from overnight, I have zero problem with killing Hamas, Go do it, they are evil and will continue to cause death, destruction, poverty and terror. Destroy their weapons. If I weren't an atheist you would even have my blessing.
I cannot condone indiscriminate killing of Gazans however, so at the point where you advocate genocide you entirely lose my atheist non blessing, indeed you become evil yourself and then I have to add you to the list of evil groups I campaign against.

282 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:22:02am

re: #280 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Some of their articles are more obvious than others.

Lesbian Atheists Invent Pacu, Release Testicle Eating Fish In Lake Yeager Illinois

I like that one because it's a nod to the excellent if loopy show "River Monsters"

283 A Mom Anon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:23:13am

re: #217 makeitstop

Yeah, I know some people in Pine Ridge, SD that can tell a few tales about that one. It's kinda part of their family history now. Not a single bomb went off, funny that. I don't think the genocides in Rwanda or Cambodia involved big booms either.

I don't lay claim on knowing what it would take to bring peace to not just the ME, but the Congo, Somalia, and other war torn areas. But I'm going to make a wild ass guess and say "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" is probably not going to be on the short list for peace. Anywhere. And instead of parsing the fuck out of the word genocide, it might be easier to just say that if your aim is to wipe a specific group of people off the map, it's not just "mass killing" you are advocating. No matter who is doing it.

284 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:23:57am

(in reference to the previous thread, has someone pointed DisturbedEma to this one?)

As I was pointing out in that prior thread this is not a new stance. It is (or at least was) probably not the opinion of the majority, but the opinion Sharon (and Livy before him and others before him) did not spring full-blown from the aether.

If you want a parallel: counter-jihad. The problem comes when those voices are heard by those at the decision table.

As to the morass in Israel/Gaza, I don't know. I do not have a good solution. But then I don't have a good solution to Darfur, either. Or pretty much any of half a dozen other long-standing but ugly situations which tend to get a lot less press.

285 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:25:24am

re: #271 Obdicut

Yeah, sorry about that.
I was pissed.

286 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:26:01am

re: #270 Varek Raith

If you support the flattening of Gaza, you support something monstrous.
No better than Hamas.
Deal with it.

Edited.

287 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:28:05am

re: #282 Obdicut

Some of their articles are more obvious than others.

Lesbian Atheists Invent Pacu, Release Testicle Eating Fish In Lake Yeager Illinois

I like that one because it's a nod to the excellent if loopy show "River Monsters"

ZOMG!

288 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:36:13am

What's disturbing is not that this sentiment exists but that it appears even as OP Ed in a mainstream Israeli paper. We know that the "we have to be evil to defeat evil" crowd is out there, look at the years of Charles banning the extreme right members from LGF. This is smelling like the GOP's alliance with the Tea Party when masks fell off, and I sure hope it's not a sign that Israel is pulling harder right out of frustration.

289 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:38:09am

re: #283 A Mom Anon

I don't think the genocides in Rwanda or Cambodia involved big booms either.

They didn't. The Rwandan genocide was driven by radio broadcasts encouraging the violence and whatever weapons people had on hand. No bombs or "flattening" required. It's amazing what you can accomplish with propaganda campaigns that completely dehumanize the other side and simple weapons like machetes.

And speaking of Cambodia, one of the most common estimates of the deaths in the Killing Fields is 1.7-1.8 million, right around Gaza's population. We call what the Khmer Rouge did a genocide, so why wouldn't it be one if Gaza was obliterated off the map?

I don't claim to know the answers for what the hell to do in Israel or the Middle East, but indiscriminate slaughter isn't the way to go.

290 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:46:55am

re: #288 Randall Gross

I think it's exactly that. The disengagement by Sharon's father in 2005 didn't establish peace, but allowed the conditions for Hamas to turn it into a terror state (though IDF forces were no longer stationed inside Gaza to protect those Israelis living there and that should have reduced tensions further). Instead of using the disengagement as a step towards improved economic conditions, Hamas used it as an opportunity to expand its terror ops - forcing Israel to create the security barrier and Hamas responded by beginning its rocket war against Israel that has essentially gone unabated since 2006. There have been periods of calm, but Hamas and the other terror groups have fired thousands of rockets at Israel, hundreds in what can be considered a quiet year.

That, in turn, has fueled a more militant attitude among some Israelis who are fed up with the half measures and limited strikes - or aborting strikes because of civilian casualties. To them, they rationalize that if Israel is going to get castigated for killing a few civilians in the pursuit of terrorists wholly embedded inside civilian areas, you might as well go after terrorists even harder without regard to the civilian casualties as they get racked up.

Fact is, Israel does a better job of limiting civilian casualties than any other country that is currently waging war in any form, but that's not nearly good enough. Even the IDF recognizes this, which is why they're trying to be even better in reducing counter battery fire to only those locations where they know they could hit terrorists without civilian casualties. But they still do have civilian casualties.

On the flip side, Hamas couldn't care where they fire from, or who they hit and target. To them, it doesn't matter that their rockets fall back on Gaza and hit their own or that their attacks target schools or playgrounds. It's all fair to them.

Frankly, Bibi's policies aren't stopping a peace process that hasn't existed since Hamas took over Gaza. So, unless Israel's willing to have a 3-state solution, West Bank, Hamastan in Gaza, and Israel, then the situation is going to continue to play out as it has - with flare ups that occur at the behest of others (think who benefits from a Gaza-Israel war - Iran and Syria's Assad). Hamas plays Gazans for fools, but Iran and Syria are playing Hamas for fools as well. They, as well as other Middle Eastern countries couldn't care about what happens in Gaza or human rights. They just see another way to use the fighting as a cudgel against Israel and to avoid real socio-economic issues in their own countries.

291 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:56:46am

Roger Cohen's Op Ed in the NYT this am springboards from Sharon's. Without explicitly condemning the call for genocide he does pragmatically enumerate everything that's wrong with it in terms of effects to Israel.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

292 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:03:57am

I don't approve of that "solution" but on a technical point, that is not my understanding of the word genocide.

293 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:07:47am

re: #292 Achilles Tang

I don't approve of that "solution" but on a technical point, that is not my understanding of the word genocide.

Obliterating an entire population that is specifically targeted because of who they are isn't genocide? Come on.

294 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:09:13am

re: #292 Achilles Tang

I don't approve of that "solution" but on a technical point, that is not my understanding of the word genocide.

Deciding whether something is genocide or democide is a pretty academic point that really doesn't amount to much.

295 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:09:42am

re: #292 Achilles Tang

I don't approve of that "solution" but on a technical point, that is not my understanding of the word genocide.

This ain't genocide, it's rock 'n' roll!

296 Flounder  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:12:57am

We all have our crosses to bear, and this former RPI professors' is the incandescent bulb.
[Link: www.timesunion.com...]
I agree we should be able to choose which type of bulb to use. I have been using CFL's since they came out. Only recently have I used an incandescent, in my garage opener. Because it is so cold in my garage, and it is only on for about 5 minutes, CFL's burn out in a year.

297 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:14:39am

re: #292 Achilles Tang

"Sorry Gazans, you got flattened because my definition of the word 'genocide' is a little fuzzy. I probably should have Googled it."

Come on man. It's flat-out murder, any way you fucking slice it.

Edit: Please don't use the word "solution." Especially considering who is involved in this conflict. I hope it wasn't intentional.

298 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:15:03am

re: #296 Flounder

I agree we should be able to choose which type of bulb to use.

Good news! You can. Why do you think that you can't?

299 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:17:59am

Average people don't need to debate the technicalities of Genocide, they leave that to war crimes trials.

300 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:18:05am

re: #293 Lidane

Obliterating an entire population that is specifically targeted because of who they are isn't genocide? Come on.

Come on? Genocide is what the Nazis tried. Eliminate all members of a group. This was a call to make their lives miserable by destroying their infrastructure, not eliminate as many individuals as possible, which is what genocide means, or used to mean until it just became a synonym for excessive force.

301 Flounder  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:18:46am

Kate Moss is perfect still.
[Link: www.nypost.com...]
I would like to take her to Five Guys and buy her a cheeseburger.

302 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:20:10am

re: #300 Achilles Tang

Bullshit. You don't "destroy large portions of their infrastructure" without murdering them because they live in that infrastructure. Turn it around, would it be genocide if it someone were to flatten Tel Aviv?

303 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:20:34am

re: #300 Achilles Tang

This was a call to make their lives miserable by destroying their infrastructure, not eliminate as many individuals as possible, which is what genocide means, or used to mean until it just became a synonym for excessive force.

Then explain to me how you would flatten Gaza without killing the population.

People live in and use that infrastructure. How would you go about destroying all of it without destroying the people there?

304 Flounder  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:20:57am

Obdicut, according to the article,

The Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 began phasing out incandescent light bulbs in favor of CFLs in September, and, under the law, incandescents must be gone completely from U.S. store shelves by 2020. The shift is already apparent in local hardware stores and supermarkets that sell light bulbs.

305 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:22:07am

re: #297 Ghost of Tom Joad

Come on man. It's flat-out murder, any way you fucking slice it.

Edit: Please don't use the word "solution." Especially considering who is involved in this conflict. I hope it wasn't intentional.

I used the word solution quite deliberately for what I thought was self evident, since that was the word used for a real genocide effort that we should all know about. I am saying that however over the top this call was, it was not a call for genocide.

Edit: Limit your use of fuck.

306 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:22:43am

re: #300 Achilles Tang

Come on? Genocide is what the Nazis tried. Eliminate all members of a group. This was a call to make their lives miserable by destroying their infrastructure, not eliminate as many individuals as possible, which is what genocide means, or used to mean until it just became a synonym for excessive force.

Their infrastructure to get food, water, electric, heat to the people (children) that need it? Maybe only disrupt the ability to take care of the sick and elderly. Only for a little while, maybe a few months. Those elderly and children should be able to do without food, water, heat, medicine and shit like that for a couple few months. Not like that shit is needed to survive or anything.

307 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:25:42am

re: #303 Lidane

Then explain to me how you would flatten Gaza without killing the population.

People live in and use that infrastructure. How would you go about destroying all of it without destroying the people there?

This is getting silly. Yes, of course, many more people would be killed, but you might as well argue that in WWII the carpet bombing of cities was an attempt to kill all the population of those countries, which would have been genocide, which it was not.

308 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:25:43am

re: #305 Achilles Tang

One of history's earliest genocides had the Romans coming back boasting of leaving no stone atop another. Now why do you find it necessary to defend/apologize/or otherwise diminish this call for Genocide?

309 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:26:45am

re: #235 Areopagitica

If the IDF goes into Gaza, it needs to have a clear mission to completely take out Hamas and its infrastructure. If it doesn't, this cycle will just repeat itself again. Hamas has already remained in power after every round of fighting, it shouldn't be around after this bought (bout). Military action should then be followed by immediate joint Israeli/West Bank Pals/International efforts to rebuild greenhouses and other infrastructure so the Gazans can see that there is in fact a peaceful and prosperous existence that Hamas has denied them for a decades.

As simplistic as that sounds, it sounds like the best course of action for achieving any kind of stable peace. Just to add, America and Egypt will also need to be significantly involved in the post-war aid and relief effort. Something must be done to help steer the Gazan people away from groups like Hamas. Even if it means having a multinational security force in the area for the relief efforts and to help root out remaining pockets of Hamas terrorists.

Get them on their feet, fix what infrastructure they can, and then possibly let them have an election. Of course, all this will be after ponies and unicorns rain from the sky. But we can hope.

310 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:26:52am

re: #307 Achilles Tang

This is getting silly. Yes, of course, many more people would be killed, but you might as well argue that in WWII the carpet bombing of cities was an attempt to kill all the population of those countries, which would have been genocide, which it was not.

So you're equating Gilad Sharon's call to obliterate Gaza with the carpet bombings of WW2?

311 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:28:08am

re: #300 Achilles Tang

Come on? Genocide is what the Nazis tried. Eliminate all members of a group.

No, the definition also includes destroying part of the members of a group.

This was a call to make their lives miserable by destroying their infrastructure,

Which would have a side effect of killing hundreds of thousands. It may not even be genocidal intent; it'd be a genocidal consequence.

312 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:29:02am

re: #307 Achilles Tang

In WWII we didn't have the tech to target exactly, now we do. That's exactly why you can't equate the two. It's morally evil and just plain fucking wrong to target civilians when you can avoid most of that.

313 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:29:53am

re: #294 Obdicut

Deciding whether something is genocide or democide is a pretty academic point that really doesn't amount to much.

Is it? You make no distinction between the use of indiscriminate force and the planned systematic murder of an entire people? Somehow I think most Jews would object to that dilution of what was attempted on them.

314 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:31:33am

re: #307 Achilles Tang

This is getting silly. Yes, of course, many more people would be killed, but you might as well argue that in WWII the carpet bombing of cities was an attempt to kill all the population of those countries, which would have been genocide, which it was not.

1. The carpet bombing of cities was controversial even at the time.

2. The carpet bombing was mainly engaged in because of the lack of our ability to pinpoint targets, both in terms of intelligence and in terms of guidance for our ordinance.

3. During WWII, the enemies we faced had an actual chance at military victory. Gaza on its own is not any existential threat to Israel.

etc. etc.

It is a terrible analogy that clearly breaks down immediately and I am surprised as hell by anyone using it.

315 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:31:53am

re: #313 Achilles Tang

I again repeat, if we were talking about Tel Aviv, you would have zero problem with calling it genocide, you stink of hypocrisy and you know it.

316 danarchy  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:32:17am

re: #304 Flounder

Obdicut, according to the article,

Tell me about it. I went to try to get some replacement bulbs for the lights on my deck a week or so back and after trying a few stores ended up having to get halogens instead.

317 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:32:49am

re: #312 Randall Gross

I wish folks would just leave WWII (and all associated individuals) out of this.

318 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:33:38am

re: #316 danarchy

Tell me about it. I went to try to get some replacement bulbs for the lights on my deck a week or so back and after trying a few stores ended up having to get halogens instead.

Halogens == same as incandescent, just more efficient because the filament is enclosed and uses a tungsten recovery cycle to last longer.

319 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:34:14am

re: #313 Achilles Tang

Is it? You make no distinction between the use of indiscriminate force and the planned systematic murder of an entire people?

So indiscriminate and unchecked force in a specifically targeted area and against a specific group of people that would flatten entire neighborhoods and destroy all the infrastructure doesn't lead to the deaths of those people? Neat. I'll have to remember that.

320 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:34:42am

re: #317 Ghost of Tom Joad

I wish folks would just leave WWII (and all associated individuals) out of this.

Agreed.

321 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:34:50am

re: #313 Achilles Tang

Is it? You make no distinction between the use of indiscriminate force and the planned systematic murder of an entire people? Somehow I think most Jews would object to that dilution of what was attempted on them.

I'm Jewish. Try not to speak for what 'most Jews' would or wouldn't do. It's annoying.

If you'd rather call this an attempt at democide rather than genocide, feel free. As I said, it's an academic distinction. The point is that this is an advocacy of group blame and the mass killing of civilians.

By your logic, you could also claim that Germany didn't attempt genocide because they obviously knew there were Jews all over the world they weren't going to be able to kill. Or that the Nazis weren't genocidal towards Slavs because they were going to keep a large proportion of them for slave labor. It gets boring trying to saw down to that level of detail.

322 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:35:02am

re: #310 Lidane

So you're equating Gilad Sharon's call to obliterate Gaza with the carpet bombings of WW2?

If he really meant leveling all residential areas, yes, although that is not necessary to destroy the infrastructure that they need.

What is it you find so difficult here, along with others who seem to get their knickers in a knot over a point of semantic meaning?

I am only saying that the meaning of that word should not be diluted to simply mean brute force.

323 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:35:10am

re: #304 Flounder

Obdicut, according to the article,

Yeah. That's about the manufacture and sale of them, not the use of them.

Do you understand the difference?

324 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:35:54am

re: #322 Achilles Tang

What part of "all of Gaza" don't you get?

325 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:36:51am

re: #322 Achilles Tang

I am only saying that the meaning of that word should not be diluted to simply mean brute force.

What is being called for isn't brute force. It's an active campaign of mass attack that would lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths of Palestinians. Brute force is when I shove really hard on the door when it's stuck to get it open.

326 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:38:32am

re: #322 Achilles Tang

I am only saying that the meaning of that word should not be diluted to simply mean brute force.

But he's not calling for brute force. Israel has far more firepower than Gaza. If it came down to weapons and organization, Israel wins, hands down. Gaza isn't an existential threat. Hamas aren't going to wipe Israel off the map, no matter what sort of fever dreams the leadership has.

He's saying that Gaza should be destroyed completely. Entire neighborhoods obliterated regardless of who lives there because there are supposedly no innocent Gazans due to the presence of Hamas. That's not brute force. That's mass slaughter of your political opponents regardless of who they are.

327 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:39:11am

re: #312 Randall Gross

In WWII we didn't have the tech to target exactly, now we do. That's exactly why you can't equate the two. It's morally evil and just plain fucking wrong to target civilians when you can avoid most of that.

And where have I said anything different? So now you call genocide anything that is just plain fucking wrong. Well I call that just plain ignorant use of language.

You do realize that you are twisting a point of semantics into something you have a fantasy of, don't you?

328 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:40:48am
329 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:40:55am

re: #307 Achilles Tang

This is getting silly. Yes, of course, many more people would be killed, but you might as well argue that in WWII the carpet bombing of cities was an attempt to kill all the population of those countries, which would have been genocide, which it was not.

In as far as obliterating Gaza would not be an attempt to wipe out Arabs more generally, it wouldn't be 'genocide'. But that is a more literal definition of Genocide than that used by international law, which is the controlling definition. And no matter what, it would be mass murder, which is a war crime in its own right.

330 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:41:16am

This is becoming stupid. Look up the damn definition of the word genocide. It does not mean using brute force and we may need that word in the future.

I'll be back when there are more adults around.

331 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:43:40am

re: #327 Achilles Tang

You are trying to diminish a call to genocide through semantic quibbles and yes I am using blunt words because they are really fucking needed when evil is apologized for.

332 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:44:11am

re: #330 Achilles Tang

Don't attempt to engage with any of the arguments made against you or the factual errors you've made, by all means. Just repeat the assertion and leave.

333 positivecrusader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:44:59am

For sure, The Jerusalem Post should be taken to task for this.

But let's not lose focus here. Gilad Sharon a nut who doesn't at all reflect the policies or strategy of the Israeli government, whose only reason for fighting is the fact that missiles have been raining down on its population centers.

As opposed to Hamas, whose government openly calls for Israel's destruction, and where the only thing holding them back from flattening Tel Aviv is the fact that they lack the fire-power.

334 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:46:33am

re: #330 Achilles Tang

This is becoming stupid. Look up the damn definition of the word genocide. It does not mean using brute force and we may need that word in the future.

I'll be back when there are more adults around.

DooDoo head

335 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:46:41am

re: #333 positivecrusader

Gilad Sharon is a major in the IDF reserves.

As opposed to Hamas, whose government openly calls for Israel's destruction, and where the only thing holding them back from flattening Tel Aviv is the fact that they lack the fire-power.

But they do lack it. Which is important.

336 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:47:41am

Once more I repeat: Achilles Tang would call it genocidal if someone were to call for the flattening of Tel Aviv or Jerusalem, indeed if I were to have the time to surf the archives a past comment to that effect is probably out there somewhere. It's good that you are leaving because you are standing on untenable moral ground.

337 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:48:26am

re: #335 Obdicut

Gilad Sharon is a major in the IDF reserves.

But they do lack it. Which is important.

Then he ought to be court-martialed for writing this shit. or at least dismissed in disgrace.

338 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:49:26am

re: #333 positivecrusader

Nobody here is saying that Israel doesn't have the right to defend themselves. They absolutely do.

HOWEVER, that response should be handled carefully precisely because Gaza lacks the firepower that Israel has. It would be very easy for the Israeli government to do what Gilad Sharon suggests and wipe Gaza off the map. They have the weapons and the organization and the power advantage.

Yes, Hamas sucks. Yes, they're fanatics and warlords and they hurt innocent people on both sides. But the answer to their extremism isn't destroying entire neighborhoods regardless of who lives there or obliterating all of the infrastructure in Gaza. That's not right. At ALL.

339 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:50:51am

re: #337 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to have to disagree with you there if he's not called up to active duty. Reservists in all Armies should have the right of free speech when not on active duty.

340 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:51:13am

re: #337 Dark_Falcon

Then he ought to be court-martialed for writing this shit. or at least dismissed in disgrace.

What I don't get is what I wrote above: The end-game of this. Where does Gilad think this would get Israel? What would the situation be after this was over? Does he really think a freshly-mauled Gaza would be more peaceable?

341 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:51:54am

re: #339 Randall Gross

I'm going to have to disagree with you there if he's not called up to active duty. Reservists in all Army should have the right of free speech when not on active duty.

I'm not interested in seeing him punished. I'd like to see his views repudiated.

342 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:52:20am

re: #341 Obdicut

Yes to that.

343 positivecrusader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:52:26am

re: #338 Lidane

Do you have reason to believe that the IDF isn't handling this as carefully and precisely as it possibly can?

I didn't and won't apologize for the call to flatten neighborhoods. I'm not sure where you think I suggested that. I agree it's disgusting.

344 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:55:59am

re: #340 Obdicut

It probably would never be peaceable, but I'm thinking there would be massive blow-back from all over. It's obvious that Hamas (and many other terrorist groups) uses civilians as shields, and subsequently as recruiting tools when those civilians die in an air-strike.

It's obvious the end-game isn't a thought of many of the "flatten Gaza" brigade. It would mean temporary peace, but long-term? I think it would get exponentially worse.

345 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:58:49am

re: #340 Obdicut

What I don't get is what I wrote above: The end-game of this. Where does Gilad think this would get Israel? What would the situation be after this was over? Does he really think a freshly-mauled Gaza would be more peaceable?

He likely thinks the survivors would be so traumatized as to be easily controlled for quite some time afterwards. The few remaining Gazans would in his mind be terrified of Israel. I don't agree with this line of thinking, and I'd offer the example of the Warsaw Ghetto in World War Two to support my view. Though the Ghetto was leveled in 1943, the surviving Jewish fighters emerged to support the Polish Home Army (AK) during the Warsaw Uprising in the summer of 1994. The horrific actions of the SS only enhanced the Jews determination to fight to the death and deny the Nazis the satisfaction of easily murdering them.

346 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 6:59:12am

re: #343 positivecrusader

Do you have reason to believe that the IDF isn't handling this as carefully and precisely as it possibly can?

I'd like to think they're making the best effort they can to minimize civilian casualties, but let's be honest here. Every civilian casualty in Gaza is a propaganda tool for Hamas. It's how they perpetuate themselves.

I didn't and won't apologize for the call to flatten neighborhoods. I'm not sure where you think I suggested that. I agree it's disgusting.

I never said that you suggested it. But that's what Gilad Sharon is suggesting, and it's a vile sentiment that goes to all sorts of dark places. It's something that should be repudiated.

347 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:00:32am

re: #339 Randall Gross

I'm going to have to disagree with you there if he's not called up to active duty. Reservists in all Armies should have the right of free speech when not on active duty.

Not if it involves conduct prejudicial to good discipline, which in my mind this does. I think that could be used to support separating him, but likely not a court-martial.

348 danarchy  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:03:01am

re: #318 Randall Gross

Halogens == same as incandescent, just more efficient because the filament is enclosed and uses a recovery cycle to last longer.

Granted. However, I can get a pack of 24 regular incandescents for 20 bucks whereas a pair of equivalent halogens cost about 7 bucks. For a light that is rarely on and is only on for a couple minutes at a time when it is, I'd rather be able to get a regular old incandescent bulb.

349 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:07:17am

re: #348 danarchy

Granted. However, I can get a pack of 24 regular incandescents for 20 bucks whereas a pair of equivalent halogens cost about 7 bucks. For a light that is rarely on and is only on for a couple minutes at a time when it is, I'd rather be able to get a regular old incandescent bulb.

I would too, but we've got to reduce energy usage if we want to cut down carbon emissions. More efficient lighting is part of that process.

350 positivecrusader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:07:21am

re: #346 Lidane

Every civilian casualty is a tragedy. And yes it's used for propaganda. The question is what do you do when the people firing rockets at you deliberately puts their launchers in populated areas? It's a serious dilemma. But in the absence of any other solution I think you just have to do what the IDF has been doing - providing as much warning it can to the civilians to get out, and then taking out the launchers and weapons caches, and hoping/praying that civilians don't get hurt.

351 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:09:28am

re: #345 Dark_Falcon

I think Stanlingrad would be a good lesson to draw from. It's different, obviously, but there's some similarities: Israel could attack with overwhelming force and devastate the area, but they wouldn't be able to completely interdict it from supplies from outside. I think Al-Queda and other Islamist fighters would flood the area-- as well as attacking Israel from other sides. Hell, such an action might just lead to an all-out attack on Israel from Egypt and Syria.

352 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:10:57am

re: #350 positivecrusader

Every civilian casualty is a tragedy. And yes it's used for propaganda. The question is what do you do when the people firing rockets at you deliberately puts their launchers in populated areas? It's a serious dilemma. But in the absence of any other solution I think you just have to do what the IDF has been doing - providing as much warning it can to the civilians to get out, and then taking out the launchers and weapons caches, and hoping/praying that civilians don't get hurt.

That's kind of why we're condemning Gilad Sharon for being a total shithead, because what he's saying is such a contemptible rejection of that.

However, it isn't true that warning is always provided. The attack on the media building-- although very limited-- was not preceded with any direct warning.

353 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:11:09am

re: #348 danarchy

Granted. However, I can get a pack of 24 regular incandescents for 20 bucks whereas a pair of equivalent halogens cost about 7 bucks. For a light that is rarely on and is only on for a couple minutes at a time when it is, I'd rather be able to get a regular old incandescent bulb.

You are most likely spending more money longer term, e.g. a 100 watt equivalent of an incandescent lasts approximately 2 years (in your application probably longer) and each time it's on it burns 72 watts per second versus 100 watts, and that adds up to longer term savings.

Amazon has 2 packs for 5.19, so if you shop around you can probably find near that price locally.
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

354 Four More Tears  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:11:59am
355 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:12:46am

re: #348 danarchy

The government imposed efficiency requirements. Manufacturers have to meet those or the products are not to be sold. If a manufacturer could meet them using incandescent tech, they can continue sales. You can still get 3-way incandescent bulbs btw, and halogens and other tech is coming down in price.

But there's a further price paid. You have lower product cost, but higher use costs over life of fixture. Then, there's the higher emissions cost associated with running more power to accommodate the higher wattages needed for incandescent bulbs.

CFLs, Halogens, and LEDs are all more efficient than incandescent bulbs, and the trade off is at least for now, higher cost for the bulb and the color range isn't nearly as flattering as the incandescent (but they're getting closer). CFLs aren't great for every application - cold conditions for instance. But they are getting better on that as well. LEDs provide instant on, but they're still far more expensive than the incandescent or CFL equivalent.

Yet, let's say you've got a high ceiling with high hats that are always on. Rather than having to spend more time to replace those incandescents, you can go with a CFL that costs marginally more per bulb or far less in use, or LED that might never need replacing again and uses significantly less in use to provide a greater savings over the life of the fixture.

For now, I've gone with CFLs in most applications and replace incandescents with CFLs as they go out. For those CFLs that have gone out, I will continue to replace with CFLs until I think the price of the LEDs has dropped sufficiently to warrant the switch (higher initial cost - long payback).

356 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:14:42am

re: #354 Four More Tears

[Embedded content]

Smart answer. The question is a loser for him, best to not answer it.

357 danarchy  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:15:17am

re: #349 Dark_Falcon

I would too, but we've got to reduce energy usage if we want to cut down carbon emissions. More efficient lighting is part of that process.

The point is, you aren't saving a whole lot of energy by putting an expensive light bulb in a in a light that is almost never on. I have CFLs in all my inside fixtures, I would just like to be able to make the choice of an incandescent where it makes sense.

358 Amory Blaine  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:16:23am

Halogens are too hot.

359 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:16:30am

My prediction is that the lawyers win.

[Link: usnews.nbcnews.com...]

And I don't think the churches have a leg to stand on. The city is not required to give them space to put up displays. And if it does, then it is right back to allowing the atheist organizations to put up displays as well.

(And note from the picture the need for the atheist display to need fencing to protect it. Lots of toleration from some of the religious* types being shown there...)

* - Issue is the intolerant *assholes* within a particular religious group, not the group(s) as a whole.

360 Four More Tears  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:16:32am

re: #356 Dark_Falcon

Smart answer. The question is a loser for him, best to not answer it.

How... principled.

361 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:16:46am

re: #357 danarchy

The point is, you aren't saving a whole lot of energy by putting an expensive light bulb in a in a light that is almost never on. I have CFLs in all my inside fixtures, I would just like to be able to make the choice of an incandescent where it makes sense.

As with many solutions imposed by government, its something of a kludge. That's Just The Way It Is.

362 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:21:14am

re: #358 Amory Blaine

Halogens are too hot.

There's a good argument for plain vanilla incandescent in danarchy's application of Garage door opener -- they typically have plastic light covers that can melt if the Halogen is left on a long time for some reason.

363 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:22:30am

In my hall I have one CFL and one Halogen, that way I get instant on with a lower energy use than two halogens.

364 positivecrusader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:24:12am

re: #352 Obdicut

it isn't true that warning is always provided

I agree. Certainly not at the moment, at the pace things are moving. But the point is that this is the preferred methodology when it's at all feasible.

That's kind of why we're condemning Gilad Sharon for being a total shithead

Absolutely, condemn away! I'm with you. My point is that guys like Gilad Sharon are a dime a dozen in Hamas, including people in positions of real power and decision-making. To me that's considerably more worrisome. Because access to more advanced weapons in Gaza is only a question of time.

365 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:26:21am

re: #364 positivecrusader

Absolutely, condemn away! I'm with you. My point is that guys like Gilad Sharon are a dime a dozen in Hamas, including people in positions of real power and decision-making. To me that's considerably more worrisome. Because access to more advanced weapons in Gaza is only a question of time.

Luckily, your dichotomy is the usual false dichotomy that gets trotted out on occasions like this, and we don't actually have to choose between being worried at Israel's swing towards the right with commensurate normalization of this sort of eliminationist rhetoric, and being worried at the genocidal speech and aims of Hamas leadership.

366 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:29:34am

Good morning lizards!

367 Amory Blaine  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:30:27am

re: #362 Randall Gross

Yeah outside they are nice but inside they just emit too much heat for me.

368 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:35:14am

Well I've put off my daily walk much to long, see you all a bit later.

369 positivecrusader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:36:33am

re: #365 Obdicut

I am ANTI the normalizing of this rhetoric. I'm glad this was posted, and that people are expressing outrage. But I don't think it's inappropriate to emphasize the need to put this in perspective. If you don't agree, that's ok.

370 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:38:18am

re: #12 Randall Gross

You don't have to be evil to defeat evil. We seem to have raised a new generation who fearfully think that's the case.

This comes to mind.

Beware when you battle monsters,
Lest you become a monster.
And as you gaze into the abyss,
the abyss gazes also,
into you.

Frederich Nietzsche

371 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:41:03am

re: #356 Dark_Falcon

Smart answer. The question is a loser for him, best to not answer it.

Not so smart an answer. What do Theologians who study religion and religion's effects on society have to do with answering the question of how old the Earth is? He actually did answer the question, at least for those listening for assurance from him that religious dogma is the answer to this question.

372 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:41:42am

re: #369 positivecrusader

I am ANTI the normalizing of this rhetoric. I'm glad this was posted, and that people are expressing outrage. But I don't think it's inappropriate to emphasize the need to put this in perspective. If you don't agree, that's ok.

I not only don't agree, I think you're an idiot for thinking that anyone here doesn't already have that perspective, so yeah, there's no need for you to do it.

373 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:42:46am

re: #370 Romantic Heretic

This comes to mind.

But in some ways, don't you at least have to do evil in order to defeat evil? Surely some of what the CIA and Mossad does involves lies and betrayal, both acts of evil committed to prevent far greater evils.

374 erik_t  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:42:53am

I don't know who Red Lion is, but I'm proud to have picked up some of their downdings.

375 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:43:32am

re: #36 Gus

Newsflash to Gilad Sharon. Yes, we were pretty brutal to the Japanese as well as the Germans. However, despite the brutality of it it (Dresden, Tokyo) was never our goal to "flatten" and literally annihilate either country during WWII. We flattened neither country.

Came close though.

I was born in Germany in 1955, ten years after the end of the war. My parents told me they were still carting the rubble away.

376 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:46:24am

Israel Takes Over Hamas TV Programming

The Israeli army on Monday took over programming at a Gaza-based Hamas television station "to broadcast warnings” on the sixth day of Operation Pillar of Defense.

Al-Aqsa television, the official station of Gaza's Hamas regime, said in a statement the Israeli army "is interfering with Al-Aqsa TV," with the picture going on and off for several hours and sometimes appearing scrambled, according to AFP.

"We took over the Hamas television to broadcast warnings," a military spokeswoman said, indicating the takeover would probably last for a number of hours.

377 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:47:01am

Flattening neighborhoods, no, but I think at this point a full-scale toppling of Hamas from power and enforcing a banning of the organization from power through occupation if need be would be quite justified. They are a full-blown terrorist organization and should be treated as such.

378 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:47:39am

re: #354 Four More Tears

[Embedded content]

4.5 billion years.
NEXT!

379 dell*nix  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:47:56am

re: #375 Romantic Heretic

And EOD still gets calls these days.

380 erik_t  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:47:58am

re: #348 danarchy

Granted. However, I can get a pack of 24 regular incandescents for 20 bucks whereas a pair of equivalent halogens cost about 7 bucks. For a light that is rarely on and is only on for a couple minutes at a time when it is, I'd rather be able to get a regular old incandescent bulb.

I suspect that thermal cycling is a driving lifetime factor in a usage scenario like this, where the number of on-off occasions (rather than a naive number of hours) is what eventually makes the bulb crap out. In this case, combined with the likely higher manufacturing cost (both money-cost and eg environmental cost) of a halogen bulb would suggest the dumb cold incandescent wins. Your scenario may not quite be stringent enough to reach this break-even point, but that break-even point exists.

Either way, it's a fringe usage and it's not surprising or shocking that these bulbs are disappearing and should disappear.

381 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:48:07am

re: #378 Varek Raith

4.5 billion years.
NEXT!

You got a birth certificate to prove that?

382 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:49:22am

re: #381 NJDhockeyfan

You got a birth certificate to prove that?

Totally don't.

383 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:51:48am

re: #373 Dark_Falcon

But in some ways, don't you at least have to do evil in order to defeat evil? Surely some of what the CIA and Mossad does involves lies and betrayal, both acts of evil committed to prevent far greater evils.

How did Luke defeat the darkside without using its power?

/

384 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:53:54am

re: #383 watching you tiny alien kittens are

How did Luke defeat the darkside without using its power?

/

Because Lucas, that's why.

385 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:55:27am

re: #378 Varek Raith

4.5 billion years.
NEXT!

And we are a "young" solar system, 2nd generation, because everything that made up our sun and planets was ejecta from an older star that blew itself up in a supernova.

386 danarchy  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:55:43am

re: #380 erik_t

Either way, it's a fringe usage and it's not surprising or shocking that these bulbs are disappearing and should disappear.

Is it really that fringe? I moved into this house a little over a year ago and can think of at least 2 lights that I haven't turned on since testing that they worked when I first moved in. One in the attic and one in a storage space under the stairs. I bet most everybody has situations like that.

387 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:59:20am

re: #386 danarchy

Is it really that fringe? I moved into this house a little over a year ago and can think of at least 2 lights that I haven't turned on since testing that they worked when I first moved in. One in the attic and one in a storage space under the stairs. I bet most everybody has situations like that.

It's pretty fringe to worry about the tiny potential cost differential between buying a CFC for two lights or an incandescent, yeah.

This shit about lightbulbs is one of the funniest lines in the sand I've seen people draw. It's freaking lightbulbs.

388 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:00:16am

re: #381 NJDhockeyfan

You got a birth certificate to prove that?

It's carved into Greenland's fjord configuration. Not our fault you couldn't read that. Or the memo about the hyperspace bypass being built through the Solar System...

389 Four More Tears  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:01:04am

re: #387 Obdicut

It's pretty fringe to worry about the tiny potential cost differential between buying a CFC for two lights or an incandescent, yeah.

This shit about lightbulbs is one of the funniest lines in the sand I've seen people draw. It's freaking lightbulbs.

It's freedom.

/

390 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:01:17am

re: #387 Obdicut

It's pretty fringe to worry about the tiny potential cost differential between buying a CFC for two lights or an incandescent, yeah.

This shit about lightbulbs is one of the funniest lines in the sand I've seen people draw. It's freaking lightbulbs.

They can have my incandescent bulbs when they can pry them from my cold, dark hands!

391 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:02:02am

re: #373 Dark_Falcon

But in some ways, don't you at least have to do evil in order to defeat evil? Surely some of what the CIA and Mossad does involves lies and betrayal, both acts of evil committed to prevent far greater evils.

It is, to me, a choice and an awareness.

Amongst all the options is the evil one going to accomplish the most towards achieving a person's goals and do the least damage to their soul? Then perhaps evil is the best way to go. But perhaps not.

And is a person aware they are doing evil? Gilad Sharon obviously doesn't. He believes that mass murder is a good thing.

Ultimately, it boils down to free will. A choice between necessity and evil. When a person says that harming other is the only choice they are often lying. They've decided to harm other people and are denying responsibility for what they are doing.

392 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:02:32am

re: #387 Obdicut

It's pretty fringe to worry about the tiny potential cost differential between buying a CFC for two lights or an incandescent, yeah.

This shit about lightbulbs is one of the funniest lines in the sand I've seen people draw. It's freaking lightbulbs.

I had a light bulb on my that lasted 10 years on my lamp post. Unfortunately when I cut off a dead branch on the tree it landed directly on top and crushed it.

393 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:02:39am

re: #387 Obdicut

It's pretty fringe to worry about the tiny potential cost differential between buying a CFC for two lights or an incandescent, yeah.

This shit about lightbulbs is one of the funniest lines in the sand I've seen people draw. It's freaking lightbulbs.

I just had my first "burnt-out" CFL in the five years since I moved to Philadelphia.

(I also have a stash of 60w and 100w incandescents that I inherited from my mother. Which makes them all over a decade old.)

394 positivecrusader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:04:45am

re: #372 Obdicut

I think you're an idiot

Would you say that to a person you met on the street? Do you think there's not a person behind these words, that you just insulted?

I came here to try to contribute something to the conversation. If people want to disagree, great - that's what makes the world go 'round. But I'm not sticking around if people such as yourself are going to be uncivil.

395 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:05:08am

re: #388 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears

It's carved into Greenland's fjord configuration. Not our fault you couldn't read that. Or the memo about the hyperspace bypass being built through the Solar System...

Sure, but why didn't the mice or the dolphins warn us? "Thanks for all the fish?" Thats it? How about "sorry your planet is just about to be destroyed, thanks for the fish, but we will be leaving now." Is that too much to ask?

From now on I only buy tuna that isn't "dolphin safe," there must be some kind of blackmarket for the stuff somewhere...

///

396 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:05:46am

I recall reading about a discussion in Israel about the impossibility of deterring suicide bombers and whether it would be moral to threaten to punish their families as well.

Which then led to the question, "What if the whole family accepted went along with that possibility?" Would it then be okay to start levelling whole villages?

Sounds like Sharon is following similar lines of reasoning.

397 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:07:05am

re: #354 Four More Tears

How old do you think the Earth is?" Marco Rubio: "I'm not a scientist, man. That's a dispute amongst theologians.”.

theology is not geology!

398 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:07:21am

re: #394 positivecrusader

Would you say that to a person you met on the street? Do you think there's not a person behind these words, that you just insulted?

You're not a person I met on the street. you're someone who came onto a web forum where you could easily see by reading any given article on Israel that people here condemn Hamas leadership unequivocally.

I came here to try to contribute something to the conversation. If people want to disagree, great - that's what makes the world go 'round. But I'm not sticking around if people such as yourself are going to be uncivil.

Stay or go. Or, here's an idea, actually respond to the substantive bit of what I said instead of focusing on calling you an idiot for thinking that anyone here needs to be told that Hamas are a bunch of murderous bastards.

399 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:07:50am

re: #396 Sol Berdinowitz

You mean Sharon, not Shalit.

400 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:08:22am

re: #399 lawhawk

You mean Sharon, not Shalit.

I do

401 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:08:52am

re: #397 Sol Berdinowitz

theology is not geology!

The rocks speak, but unfortunately too few know how to listen.

402 lostlakehiker  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:09:41am

re: #233 SteveMcG

Other regimes have killed millions, but they had years to do it. Nobody gives two shits about Darfur or else it would stop. Israel won't have years to kill millions of Gazans. The only way for it to do so would require nukes, and that won't happen that close to their border. I also think that's a Rubicon even Israel won't cross anyway. It's one thing to try to deter a future nuclear power, but using one in Gaza makes Israel even more vulnerable in the long run.
For erik_t, I keep saying the distinction doesn't matter to the victims. You are the one hung up on the distinction. I keep arguing that killing even thousands of Gazans does not make Isael safer. All it does in ensure a steady supply of Hamas supporters.
The distinction of whether or not this constitutes genocide is ultimately meaningless. Did any of this handwringing mean anything to the Armenians, Jews, Chinese, Ukranians, Chinese (again), Cambodians, Rwandans, Nigerians, Sudanese, Bosnians and countless others I am leaving out? Don't get distracted by the G word, work the problem. Israel does not have a solution to the Gaza crisis. If it doesn't find a solution soon, somebody is going to find one for them.

Not every situation has a "solution". Not if, by "solution", you mean an outcome in which rockets stop heading from Gaza towards Israel, without any ground invasion or other escalation on Israel's part.

There's always an outcome, but there isn't always even the possibility of a good outcome. The choices are between bad, worse, and worse still.

403 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:12:09am

re: #356 Dark_Falcon

Smart answer. The question is a loser for him, best to not answer it.

Dumb as shit answer, since he said the age of the Earth is a question for theologians.

404 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:12:15am

re: #391 Romantic Heretic

It is, to me, a choice and an awareness.

Amongst all the options is the evil one going to accomplish the most towards achieving a person's goals and do the least damage to their soul? Then perhaps evil is the best way to go. But perhaps not.

And is a person aware they are doing evil? Gilad Sharon obviously doesn't. He believes that mass murder is a good thing.

Ultimately, it boils down to free will. A choice between necessity and evil. When a person says that harming other is the only choice they are often lying. They've decided to harm other people and are denying responsibility for what they are doing.

I've always been of the opinion that one cannot think of one's soul when hunting terror masters. They must die, or they'll destroy that which is good in the world. Best not to have feelings about killing them beyond that.

405 Gus  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:12:51am

Nice job Bibi.

406 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:13:13am

re: #396 Sol Berdinowitz

I recall reading about a discussion in Israel about the impossibility of deterring suicide bombers and whether it would be moral to threaten to punish their families as well.

Which then led to the question, "What if the whole family accepted went along with that possibility?" Would it then be okay to start levelling whole villages?

Sounds like Shalit is following similar lines of reasoning.

Ten years ago, when suicide bombers were hitting Israeli buses, malls, pizza parlors, clubs, etc. it seemed almost every day, the Israelis started building a wall and installing checkpoints. Once the barriers were in place, the suicide bombings stopped.

However then the complaints started about the "apartheid wall" and "checkpoints ruining everyone's day." It's like everyone totally forgot about all the suicide bombings that caused these barriers to be installed.

407 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:14:22am

re: #390 Eventual Carrion

They can have my incandescent bulbs when they can pry them from my cold, dark hands!

You are not alone

Seriously...

408 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:14:47am

re: #403 Lidane

Dumb as shit answer, since he said the age of the Earth is a question for theologians.

No, he hedged it just right. The question was a 'gotcha', and one he had to avoid answering.

409 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:15:36am

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

No, he hedged it just right. The question was a 'gotcha', and one he had to avoid answering.

No, Dark, he didn't. The age of the earth is not a question for theologians. What he said was anti-science, and stupid.

410 danarchy  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:16:12am

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

No, he hedged it just right. The question was a 'gotcha', and one he had to avoid answering.

When science becomes a gotcha we have issues.

411 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:16:26am

re: #407 watching you tiny alien kittens are

You are not alone

Seriously...

That lady's got a BAR. Is it an M1918A3 semi-auto replica or one of the full-auto originals?

412 Four More Tears  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:16:48am

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

No, he hedged it just right. The question was a 'gotcha', and one he had to avoid answering.

Wow. "How old do you think the earth is" has become a gotcha! question. What a weird fucking world we live in.

413 gwangung  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:17:00am

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

No, he hedged it just right. The question was a 'gotcha', and one he had to avoid answering.

It's "gotcha" like "Does the sun rise in the east?" or "What newspapers do you read?"

Either you admit reality or pander to the nuts.

414 Four More Tears  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:18:14am

"Where do you think babies come from?"
"Well, I'm not a pediatrician..."

415 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:18:22am

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

No, he hedged it just right. The question was a 'gotcha', and one he had to avoid answering.

He didn't hedge a damn thing. He called it a dispute among theologians.

He's either criminally stupid and thinks that theologians have any business deciding how old the Earth is, or he's a fanatic who thinks that science is a religion and that scientists are theologians.

416 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:18:28am

re: #409 Obdicut

No, Dark, he didn't. The age of the earth is not a question for theologians. What he said was anti-science, and stupid.

He can't give a science based answer without offending his political base. Nor can be openly creationist without risking the alienation of moderate voters who he knows the Republican party needs to woo in Florida. Thus he had to find a way to punt.

417 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:18:51am

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

No. It wasn't a gotcha. It was a question whether you accept science, or you rather believe or feel that the earth isn't 6,000 (or 12,000) years old despite all evidence to the contrary.

And that Rubio deflected is telling not only about Rubio, but the people he panders to with that response. It's anti-science at its core.

418 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:19:02am

re: #414 Four More Tears

"Where do you think babies come from?"
"Well, I'm not a pediatrician..."

that's a question for the storks...

419 Four More Tears  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:19:27am

re: #413 gwangung

It's "gotcha" like "Does the sun rise in the east?"

I'm not an astronomer, man!

420 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:20:39am

re: #416 Dark_Falcon

He can't give a science based answer without offending his political base.

And you don't see that as a problem?

Dark -- we live in an age where the rest of the world is literally at our fingertips via smartphone. Where technology and science are driving our forward progress. If his political base are so goddamn stupid that science offends their sensibilities then that's their problem, not ours.

Rubio should give credence to science unless he's dumb enough not to believe in it either.

421 erik_t  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:20:50am

re: #416 Dark_Falcon

He can't give a science based answer without offending his political base. Nor can be openly creationist without risking the alienation of moderate voters who he knows the Republican party needs to woo in Florida. Thus he had to find a way to punt.

And lo, was it decided that a Republican need never give an answer to a question that his supporters might find less than pleasing.

Jesus, man, step back and think about what you just said. You asked your tribal leaders to tell you only what you want to hear, not the truth.

422 Four More Tears  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:21:02am

re: #416 Dark_Falcon

He can't give a science based answer without offending his political base. Nor can be openly creationist without risking the alienation of moderate voters who he knows the Republican party needs to woo in Florida. Thus he had to find a way to punt.

Nice to hear that you support a member of your party going out of his way to avoid telling the truth.

Because, you know, votes and stuff.

423 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:21:22am

re: #416 Dark_Falcon

He can't give a science based answer without offending his political base. Nor can be openly creationist without risking the alienation of moderate voters who he knows the Republican party needs to woo in Florida. Thus he had to find a way to punt.

The major problem with many politicians of either stripe in a nutshell. Retaining power overrides principles, honesty, and a host of other virtues.

424 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:22:48am

re: #411 Dark_Falcon

That lady's got a BAR. Is it an M1918A3 semi-auto replica or one of the full-auto originals?

Regardless, she needs to employ proper stance and form if she hopes to hit anything on purpose.

425 GunstarGreen  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:23:02am

re: #416 Dark_Falcon

He can't give a science based answer without offending his political base. Nor can be openly creationist without risking the alienation of moderate voters who he knows the Republican party needs to woo in Florida. Thus he had to find a way to punt.

Or he could, you know, take a principled stand and reject anti-science bunkum. People are of course free to believe whatever magical sky fairy nonsense they wish to believe, but their beliefs do not in any way impact the simple scientific truth of the world.

This would be like saying that asking him whether 2 + 2 = 4 is a 'gotcha' question, and he needs to punt because there's some segment of his base that believes in "biblical math", or whatever, and their storybook tells them that those Ivory Tower Elitist Mathematicians™ are just propagandists for Satan. Wouldn't want to alienate his base now, would he?

Basic science is not a 'gotcha' question.

426 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:24:00am

re: #414 Four More Tears

"Where do you think babies come from?"
"Well, I'm not a pediatrician Theologian..."

FTFY

427 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:24:37am

re: #404 Dark_Falcon

I've always been of the opinion that one cannot think of one's soul when hunting terror masters. They must die, or they'll destroy that which is good in the world. Best not to have feelings about killing them beyond that.

On the other hand, "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

The point of strategy is not to destroy the other side but to make them do what you want them to do. As Sun Tzu put it:

1. In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy’s country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.

2. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.

3. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy’s plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy’s forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy’s army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

4. The rule is, not to besiege walled cities if it can possibly be avoided. The preparation of mantlets, movable shelters, and various implements of war, will take up three whole months; and the piling up of mounds over against the walls will take three months more.

5. The general, unable to control his irritation, will launch his men to the assault like swarming ants, with the result that one-third of his men are slain, while the town still remains untaken. Such are the disastrous effects of a siege.

6. Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy’s troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.

7. With his forces intact he will dispute the mastery of the Empire, and thus, without losing a man, his triumph will be complete. This is the method of attacking by stratagem.

It seems to me that the modern form of warfare starts at third best, attacking armies in the field, and ends with sieges. It's no small wonder that our wars are so inconclusive and bloody. Even Hamas with their rockets is essentially besieging Israel and it has accomplished nothing for them.

To be honest I'm not sure Hamas even know what their strategic goal is, nor do the Israelis. They've been locked in battle for so long they can't imagine any other way now.

428 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:25:06am

I can't think of an honorable reason for a politician to shy away from telling his supporters the truth.

429 Gus  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:25:06am

2016, blah, blah, blah. Marc Rubio should never set foot in the White House only to just visit perhaps.

430 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:25:13am

re: #425 GunstarGreen

Basic science is not has become a 'gotcha' question for assessing TP/GOP loyalty, like abortion or the Tax Pledge.

431 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:25:21am

Possible good news...

Jane Harman: Cease-fire possible today

432 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:25:22am

re: #424 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Regardless, she needs to employ proper stance and form if she hopes to hit anything on purpose.

Indeed. The way she's holding it, it'd kick the hell out of her if she fired it. The 30-06 is a full-power rifle cartridge, and a person firing it out of a rifle standing up needs to have said rifle correctly positioned on their shoulder.

433 Four More Tears  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:26:25am

re: #416 Dark_Falcon

He can't give a science based answer without offending his political base. Nor can be openly creationist without risking the alienation of moderate voters who he knows the Republican party needs to woo in Florida. Thus he had to find a way to punt.

Seriously, though, don't ever talk to me again about principles. This comment flies in the face of any statement you might ever make again about you valuing them.

434 Gus  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:27:34am

"Do you think holding slaves is bad?" Marco Rubio: "I'm not a sociologist, man. That's a dispute amongst theologians.”

It's in the bible!! //

435 Feline Fearless Leader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:27:36am

re: #433 Four More Tears

Seriously, though, don't ever talk to me again about principles. This comment flies in the face of any statement you might ever make again about you valuing them.

He values them personally. He just does not require them for the members of Team GOP (rah rah rah).
/

436 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:28:56am

re: #427 Romantic Heretic

This is the method of attacking by stratagem.

Terrorize the terrorists.

437 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:29:02am

Great. It looks like there may be a serial killer running around NYC targeting shopowners who are of Middle Eastern descent and whose stores lack video surveillance.

Three such people have been killed so far this year, and all by the same .22 gun. The NYPD has called in the FBI for assistance.

Police say in all three cases the gunman targeted stores without surveillance cameras owned by men of Middle Eastern descent. He used the same .22 caliber gun to shoot the victims in the head, neck or chest, and then covered each of their bodies with merchandise from their stores.

Follow @NBCNewsUS

The murders were connected using shell casings found at the crime scenes.

The first attack took place at a Bay Ridge clothing store in July. A month later, the same gun was used to murder a shopkeeper inside his Bensonhurst 99 cent store.

Shop owners near the latest target now say they fear for their safety.

438 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:29:34am

re: #404 Dark_Falcon

I've always been of the opinion that one cannot think of one's soul when hunting terror masters. They must die, or they'll destroy that which is good in the world. Best not to have feelings about killing them beyond that.

What about the children? Fuck 'em, that's their problem for being born into the hell hole?

439 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:30:28am

re: #438 Eventual Carrion

What about the children? Fuck 'em, that's their problem for being born into the hell hole?

The Pro-life thingie ends at birth..

440 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:31:54am

re: #437 lawhawk

Great. It looks like there may be a serial killer running around NYC targeting shopowners who are of Middle Eastern descent and whose stores lack video surveillance.

Three such people have been killed so far this year, and all by the same .22 gun. The NYPD has called in the FBI for assistance.

There were two Jewish victims and one Muslim victim. The two Jewish victims were Persian (Iranian), was the Muslim also Iranian?

441 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:32:33am

re: #405 Gus

[Embedded content]

Nice job Bibi.

Fatah had to move over and stand with Hamas or risk losing the West Bank to Hamas too, the Palestinian youth* want "action" not conciliatory speeches. I really don't see how it is Bibi's fault particularly.

*Demographics over there really suck for any chance of peace in the near future. Way too many young hotheads for the mature generations to hold back.

442 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:33:19am

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

No, he hedged it just right. The question was a 'gotcha', and one he had to avoid answering.

So his answer for secular 'gotcha' questions is to let the theologians decide? Global warming, crony capitalism, deciding which religion gets to build houses of worship, who gets to be citizens in full standing, let the theologians decide? Whose theologians?

443 gwangung  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:35:03am

re: #440 Vicious Babushka

There were two Jewish victims and one Muslim victim. The two Jewish victims were Persian (Iranian), was the Muslim also Iranian?

Ugh ugh ugh ugh.

Hopin' this is not as ugly as it looks....

444 Gus  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:35:15am

Here's the thing. You're not going to stop terrorism by "just killing terrorists." You're going to stop terrorism in the long run by finding out what creates terrorists and fixing that.

445 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:36:50am

re: #438 Eventual Carrion

What about the children? Fuck 'em, that's their problem for being born into the hell hole?

Your own soul, not the souls of others. I'm saying you can't worry about yourself, not that one should kill or maim without regard for what is just and good.

446 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:36:53am

re: #444 Gus

Here's the thing. You're not going to stop terrorism by "just killing terrorists." You're going to stop terrorism in the long run by finding out what creates terrorists and fixing that.

Pretty much, yeah.

447 Gus  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:39:38am

re: #446 Lidane

Pretty much, yeah.

...

There's nothing to FIX because everything is right and they're wrong! KILL THEM ALL! Stop them at the GATES OF VIENNA!!

Wolverines!!

448 Gus  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:41:49am
449 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:43:29am


Just find this one passenger's baggage and throw it on the tarmac. Asshole.

450 positivecrusader  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:43:40am

re: #398 Obdicut

The "substantive bit" of what you said is that others here clearly already have that perspective. Fine, I accept that.

But I don't accept being called an idiot. And the notion that there's a "real world" and an "internet world" where in the latter you're allowed to name call and tear people down - THAT is a false dichotomy. Real people inhabit both of those worlds. I urge you to consider that. Cheers...

451 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:43:48am

re: #444 Gus

Here's the thing. You're not going to stop terrorism by "just killing terrorists." You're going to stop terrorism in the long run by finding out what creates terrorists and fixing that.

The problem there, as was correctly noted by Mark Steyn* of all people, is that fixing the things in Arab culture and in some sects of Islam that cause Islamist terrorism is not ousr here to do, nor America or Israel as nations. Both nations can encourage and protect those who would fix those problems but we cannot fix the problems ourselves. They can only be solved from the inside.


* Yes, Steyn is often an ass, but on this he is correct.

452 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:45:10am

re: #449 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]


Just find this one passenger's baggage and throw it on the tarmac. Asshole.

Not good enough, he might have had accomplices. It's far more likely to be nothing, but its not something the TSA can ignore.

453 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:45:50am

re: #444 Gus

Here's the thing. You're not going to stop terrorism by "just killing terrorists." You're going to stop terrorism in the long run by finding out what creates terrorists and fixing that.

Fairies and unicorns. People never want to look at the cause, because they're terrified of what the reason might be. Which is why "they hate us for our Freedumbs!" was born. Not to mention curing the cause of terrorism would heavily cut into the profit margins of some very large corporations (political donors), give a big sad to the war-mongers, and require actual work.

But, hey, good luck with that.

/Cynic.

454 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:46:41am

100 years ago this is pretty much what would happen. Failure to surrender would have resulted total annihilation of Gaza, displacing the population and annexing the territory. No longer acceptable by modern standards of warfare. Palestinian terror groups exist because of this loophole. The responsible thing would have been to stop fighting long ago for the safety of the Palestinian people, it would have been the responsible thing to do but Hamas can keep fighting for the sole purpose of creating Palestinian suffering to be milked for propaganda. Neither the Israeli government or the people want Gaza and military defeat of the terror groups just isn't possible by modern standards. Disengagement is the only option.

455 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:47:17am

re: #449 Vicious Babushka

[Embedded content]


Just find this one passenger 's baggage and throw it them on the tarmac from the plane. Asshole.

456 Gus  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:47:47am

Great responses.

//

457 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:50:57am

re: #440 Vicious Babushka

The third victim was apparently Egyptian.

[Rahmatolla] Vahidipour, 78, a devout Jew from Iran, was shot three times in the head and chest at his Flatbush store, She She Boutique. His body was discovered Friday evening hidden under clothes at the rear of the business.

The .22-caliber gun used in the Vahidipour slaying is the same weapon used to kill two other shop owners, cops said.

The bullet-riddled body of Mohammed Gebeli, 65, an Egyptian immigrant and a Muslim, was found July 6 hidden in the back of his Bay Ridge shop, Valentino Fashion Inc. On Aug. 6, Isaac Kadare, 59, also from Egypt but of Jewish faith, was discovered shot in the head and slashed in the neck in his Bensonhurst store, Amazing 99 Cent Deal.

458 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:51:44am

re: #448 Gus

And yet, the leadership in the GOP that don't see that as a problem. They'd rather pander to the ignorant to win votes.

459 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:52:00am

re: #414 Four More Tears

"Where do you think babies come from?"
"Well, I'm not a pediatrician..."

Stork.
NEXT!

460 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:52:47am

re: #454 Killgore Trout

Thanos posted a Page for you, Killgore.

Large amounts of chemicals commonly used to make bombs were found in the basement of a New Jersey doctor, along with assault rifles and a stun gun, prosecutors said today.

Dr. Roberto Rivera, 60, who according to some reports was active in the Occupy Wall Street movement last year, was arrested following a Friday night raid on his Ridgewood, N.J., home.

Ridgewood police first showed up at the home around 6:15 p.m. after getting a report of potential hazardous and explosive material, according to a press release from Bergen County Prosecutor John L. Molinelli.

Inside the home, police found a “large amount” of a chemical typically used in bomb-making, the release said. The name of the chemical was not released.

Armed with a search warrant, the FBI and the Bergen County Bomb Squad then visited Rivera’s home where they confiscated the bomb-making chemical and also found “several other precursor chemicals commonly used in the making of explosive devices,” Molinelli said.

461 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:53:11am

Is there anything like "Radio Free Gaza" out there? Just curious.

462 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:53:38am

CNN/ORC poll: Most Americans say Israeli military action in Gaza is justified

Seventy-four percent of Republicans said the action is justified, compared to 59 percent of independents and 41 percent of Democrats. Overall, nearly one-in-five (19 percent) Americans said they had no opinion.

Nearly six-in-ten Americans polled (59 percent) said their sympathies were more with the Israelis in the situation in the Middle East, while 13 percent said they were more sympathetic to the Palestinians in the poll, which was conducted Friday through Sunday. Eleven percent said they were not more sympathetic to either side, while 13 percent said they had no opinion.

463 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:53:59am

re: #461 Randall Gross

Is there anything like "Radio Free Gaza" out there? Just curious.

Israel broadcasts a variety of Arabic-language programs.

464 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:55:09am

re: #457 lawhawk

The third victim was apparently Egyptian.

So two of the victims have been Jews?

That says to me that the killer was likely a white bigot of some kind, most likely bigoted against both Jews and Muslims.

Or have I been watching too much TV?

465 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:57:28am

re: #464 Dark_Falcon

So two of the victims have been Jews?

That says to me that the killer was likely a white bigot of some kind, most likely bigoted against both Jews and Muslims.

Or have I been watching too much TV?

The police sketch shows a face that might also be Middle-Eastern.

466 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:57:31am

re: #460 Dark_Falcon

I've been seeing reports about that. It's just two towns over from where I live. re: #464 Dark_Falcon

Or someone who thinks that anyone who looks/sounds "Middle Eastern" is automatically an Arab.

NYPD and FBI will probably start off with the assumption that the murderer is probably targeting these businesses because he's cased them before and knows they don't have video. Then they'll go and see if this is really a bias crime or it's a coincidence that the victims have all been Middle Eastern/Persian.

467 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:57:44am

re: #460 Dark_Falcon


Thanos posted a Page for you, Killgore.

Damn, I wonder what his plan was. I'm glad the feds stepped in.

468 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:57:50am

re: #462 Killgore Trout

CNN/ORC poll: Most Americans say Israeli military action in Gaza is justified

Are they justified? Absolutely. Missile strikes need to be answered.

Should they be as careful as possible to minimize the impact on civilians in Gaza? Yes. That too. The alternative being argued by a fanatic like Gilad Sharon would be beyond the pale.

469 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:57:52am

re: #464 Dark_Falcon

I'd take a guess that he had no idea they were Jewish. To a lot of bigots, anybody who looks of a middle-eastern descent is probably a scary Mooslim!

470 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:57:53am

re: #463 Vicious Babushka

Israel broadcasts a variety of Arabic-language programs.

Do they speak of freedom, and the principles of Democracy in generic, no nonsense, no propaganda for Israel terms? The reason I ask is that the collapse of the Soviet Union didn't just happen because Reagan and the Pope got together on it, it took decades of planting simple seeds prior to that. People have to understand and want it.

471 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:59:41am

re: #469 Ghost of Tom Joad

I'd take a guess that he had no idea they were Jewish. To a lot of bigots, anybody who looks of a middle-eastern descent is probably a scary Mooslim!

Possibly, but I wanted to let someone else say that. I have run out of new ways to satirize dumb wingnuts.

472 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:59:46am

Raid on the Gaza media center killed top PIJ leader.

Islamic Jihad has sent a text message to reporters saying that Ramez Harb was killed in the strike Monday. Harb is a leading figure in their militant wing, the Al Quds Brigades.

473 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:00:31am

re: #472 lawhawk

Raid on the Gaza media center killed top PIJ leader.

Good news there.

474 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:03:23am

re: #472 lawhawk

Raid on the Gaza media center killed top PIJ leader.

Looks like there were a bunch of targets in the media building

Israeli airstrike targets top Jihad terrorists in Gaza

In what the Shin Bet security service dubbed as one of the most successful intelligence-based operations since the assault on Gaza began last week, four senior Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorists were hit during an airstrike on a high-rise in downtown Gaza City where a number of local and foreign news organizations have offices.

475 lgffan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:03:29am

I am not suggesting that he is right ... not even close, but it is odd how this is emphasized while the daily calls for the destruction of teh Joos and Israel barely elicits any criticism. It is one guy expressing his opinion, in a right leaning Israeli op-ed. Again, he is not right, but perhaps his rhetoric and hyperbole is just a little shocking for a Joo? Cuz we sure have grown accustom to it coming from the other side on a regular basis.

476 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:05:36am

Hey all. Been having problems posting and accessing site so this is a test post :)

1...2...3...

477 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:06:31am

re: #463 Vicious Babushka

That Dylan ‏character whose tweet with the "Palestinian" (Israeli) baby you posted yesterday is having a great time posting photos of dead and injured Syrians and claiming that they are Palestinians. Sigh...stupid propagandists and their twitter pulpits...

(and she protected her page, you have to be a follower now to see her tweets)

478 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:06:47am

Ooo it posted, none of the other buttons seem to be working other than the up and down dings.

479 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:06:49am

re: #476 What, me worry?

Hey all. Been having problems posting and accessing site so this is a test post :)

1...2...3...

Good to see you!

480 [deleted]  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:07:07am
481 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:07:13am

re: #460 Dark_Falcon


Thanos posted a Page for you, Killgore.

Maybe he was going to kill an abortion doctor, or blow up an abortion clinic. Lone wolf I'd say (or does that only work one way?).

482 Four More Tears  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:07:26am

This is story is from Thursday. Let that sink in...

Shoppers already lined up for Black Friday

EL CAJON, Calif. (CNN/XETV) - Black Friday is more than a week away, but some people are already lining up outside stores to score big bargains.

Rhiannon Buckingham and Alicia Gomez are making sure they don't miss out on the deals. They're the first in line at this Best Buy in El Cajon. In fact, the store manager says it's the earliest they've seen a line start to form.

483 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:08:08am

re: #475 lgffan

I am not suggesting that he is right ... not even close, but it is odd how this is emphasized while the daily calls for the destruction of teh Joos and Israel barely elicits any criticism. It is one guy expressing his opinion, in a right leaning Israeli op-ed. Again, he is not right, but perhaps his rhetoric and hyperbole is just a little shocking for a Joo? Cuz we sure have grown accustom to it coming from the other side on a regular basis.

Interestingly enough, is anyone in a tizzy over the Hamas Charter that explicitly sites the killing of all Jews??

484 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:08:43am

re: #477 watching you tiny alien kittens are

That Dylan ‏character whose tweet with the "Palestinian" (Israeli) baby you posted yesterday is having a great time posting photos of dead and injured Syrians and claiming that they are Palestinians. Sigh...stupid propagandists and their twitter pulpits...

That person locked their Twitter account so only special friends can view its Tweets.

I've pretty much stopped looking at Twitter except for major media breaking news, everything else is bullshit.

485 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:09:18am

re: #479 Dark_Falcon

Good to see you!

You too :) But I don't think I can stay. I can't repost or see comments without reloading the page each time.

486 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:09:27am

re: #481 Eventual Carrion

Taking a guess at anti-government, anti-establishment nutter.

487 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:10:25am

re: #475 lgffan

I am not suggesting that he is right ... not even close, but it is odd how this is emphasized while the daily calls for the destruction of teh Joos and Israel barely elicits any criticism. It is one guy expressing his opinion, in a right leaning Israeli op-ed. Again, he is not right, but perhaps his rhetoric and hyperbole is just a little shocking for a Joo? Cuz we sure have grown accustom to it coming from the other side on a regular basis.

How many nukes does the other side have?

488 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:11:10am

It turns out those missiles Egypt caught being smuggled in form Libya were ATGMs, not artillery rockets:

November 16, 2012: Egyptian border guards caught Libyan smugglers trying to bring 35 anti-tank guided missiles into Egypt. There are still lots of Kaddafi era weapons lying about, often hidden by looters waiting for find a buyer, or someone to use this stuff on.

489 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:11:59am

re: #485 What, me worry?

You too :) But I don't think I can stay. I can't repost or see comments without reloading the page each time.

Send Charles an email. He may be able to help you.

490 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:12:07am

re: #480 RediSlip

Seriously? Posting stuff from Counterpunch where Israel Shamir is a contributor?

491 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:12:38am

re: #477 watching you tiny alien kittens are

That Dylan ‏character whose tweet with the "Palestinian" (Israeli) baby you posted yesterday is having a great time posting photos of dead and injured Syrians and claiming that they are Palestinians. Sigh...stupid propagandists and their twitter pulpits...

(and she protected her page, you have to be a follower now to see her tweets)

Hamas co-opts photos of injured Syrians

492 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:13:02am

re: #486 Ghost of Tom Joad

Taking a guess at anti-government, anti-establishment nutter.

Yes, but it looks like he's from the left-end of the spectrum instead of the right. Still bad of course, as violent nutjobs always are.

493 [deleted]  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:13:08am
494 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:13:28am

re: #450 positivecrusader

The "substantive bit" of what you said is that others here clearly already have that perspective. Fine, I accept that.

But I don't accept being called an idiot. And the notion that there's a "real world" and an "internet world" where in the latter you're allowed to name call and tear people down - THAT is a false dichotomy. Real people inhabit both of those worlds. I urge you to consider that. Cheers...

I cannot believe you're throwing a shit fit about me calling you an idiot for having the stupidity to think that people here don't condemn Hamas. It's a much more insulting allegation to imply that people here aren't aware that Hamas are assholes. If if you said shit like that in the 'real world', I'd call you an idiot there, too.

Why did you think people here didn't have that perspective? You thought this was a place where Hamas gets a lot of support?

495 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:13:29am

re: #480 RediSlip

So everyone in the world except for the Palestinians is at fault for the violence ehh?

Your in the wrong forum to try to peddle that type of propaganda.

496 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:13:31am

re: #487 Eventual Carrion

How many nukes does the other side have?

Who is using nukes?

Gilad Sharon is not a politician. He's one man that does not share his ideas with the majority of Israel's population. In a free society, such as Israel, he has a voice too, even if it's wrong.

Israel could have carpet bombed Gaza 10x over. They have not. Instead they left the territory to give it to the Arabs. Wow, how horrible of them. The Arabs turned it into an armed camp. But you better believe if the shoe was on the other foot and Gaza had heavy artillery, there wouldn't be a Jew standing in Israel.

497 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:13:48am

re: #475 lgffan

I am not suggesting that he is right ... not even close, but it is odd how this is emphasized while the daily calls for the destruction of teh Joos and Israel barely elicits any criticism.

That's a lie.

498 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:13:58am

re: #490 Randall Gross

Seriously? Posting stuff from Counterpunch where Israel Shamir is a contributor?

You know the lame argument "X can't be Anti-Semitic because X is a Jew" Israel Shamir and Gilad Atzmon, not to mention Neturei Karta, prove that a "Jew" can indeed also be anti-Semitic.

499 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:13:59am

re: #483 What, me worry?

Interestingly enough, is anyone in a tizzy over the Hamas Charter that explicitly sites the killing of all Jews??

I don't understand the point of the question. Not a single person here ever came remotely close to setting up a moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas.

500 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:15:04am

re: #484 Vicious Babushka

That person locked their Twitter account so only special friends can view its Tweets.

I've pretty much stopped looking at Twitter except for major media breaking news, everything else is bullshit.

She approved me, probably cause my outgoing twitter stream looks so damn boring, certainly nothing to do with Israel or Palestinians there, so far at least.

501 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:15:29am

re: #499 philosophus invidius

I don't understand the point of the question. Not a single person here ever came remotely close to setting up a moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas.

Then why no mention of the written documents of Hamas? Their constitution, as it is.

502 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:16:11am

re: #498 Vicious Babushka

Isn't it debatable as well that he's actually Jewish? Norm Finkelstein says his history is wholly invented.

503 [deleted]  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:16:26am
504 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:16:39am

re: #480 RediSlip

Are you utterly insane? That piece is a far-left hack-job that basically exonerates Hamas of any blame and lays all fault on Israel, in contravention of the plain facts.

Downding for posting horseshit.

505 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:17:00am

re: #501 What, me worry?

Because the topic is the article of Sharon fils.

506 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:17:15am

re: #483 What, me worry?

Interestingly enough, is anyone in a tizzy over the Hamas Charter that explicitly sites the killing of all Jews??

Yes. I'd say everyone here is in a 'tizzy' about that, if by being in a tizzy you mean condemning it and saying it absolutely is unacceptable.

Why would you need to ask such a question?

507 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:18:03am

re: #501 What, me worry?

Then why no mention of the written documents of Hamas? Their constitution, as it is.

I have seen the charter of Hamas condemned here umpteen million times. You seriously trying to claim you haven't?

508 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:18:05am

re: #483 What, me worry?

The Hamas charter has been on the books for years now - and has been well established that Hamas seeks Israel's obliteration - a position shared by Iran (including Ahmadinejad), various other terror groups, and long indicated within the PLO charter as well. And it's been well documented here for years.

What the issue here is that you've got a prominent Israeli (by being one of former Israeli PM Ariel Sharon's sons) pushing a position that is extremist by Israeli political standards and its publication in a mainstream Israeli newspaper.

It's out of character for the Jerusalem Post but may highlight a growing sentiment among Israelis that much more damage needs to be done to Gaza to hem in Hamas and other terror groups that now have the range and means to hit Tel Aviv and Jerusalem notwithstanding Iron Dome, and that's why there's a discussion of why it is relevant, the means and methods of Israel defending itself, and the level of retaliation needed to quell this latest round of violence. It goes to the morality and ethical soundness of the decisions by the Israeli political establishment and the IDF.

509 lgffan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:18:06am

re: #487 Eventual Carrion

Not germane to the discussion.

510 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:18:08am

The magazine should be "Counterfact" not "Counterpunch".

511 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:18:18am

re: #502 Randall Gross

Isn't it debatable as well that he's actually Jewish? Norm Finkelstein says his history is wholly invented.

He is an anti-Semite who claims to be "Jewish" in order to deflect any accusations of anti-Semitism.

Because, you know, it's one of those things Jews do to their enemies to shut them up. They accuse them of being Anti-Semites!

512 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:20:17am

re: #501 What, me worry?

Then why no mention of the written documents of Hamas? Their constitution, as it is.

Because its vileness is a known quantity on this forum. We can't go over the full scope of a long standing issue like this every time there is a new development, there just isn't time.

The Hamas Charter is evil, and no regular LGF poster has ever defended it. And none ever will.

513 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:24:33am

re: #509 lgffan

Not germane to the discussion.

Concur.

514 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:24:56am

re: #501 What, me worry?

Then why no mention of the written documents of Hamas? Their constitution, as it is.

It's like talking about how enormous my dick is. Some things are self evident and speak for themselves.

515 erik_t  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:25:01am

re: #512 Dark_Falcon

Because its vileness is a known quantity on this forum. We can't go over the full scope of a long standing issue like this every time there is a new development, there just isn't time.

Wait, you mean we talk about new things more than old ones?

(DOWN WITH CHARLEMAGNE)

516 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:26:01am

Ah, I do love Paul Krugman:

There are, let’s face it, some people in our political life who pine for the days when minorities and women knew their place, gays stayed firmly in the closet and congressmen asked, “Are you now or have you ever been?” The rest of us, however, are very glad those days are gone. We are, morally, a much better nation than we were. Oh, and the food has improved a lot, too.

Along the way, however, we’ve forgotten something important — namely, that economic justice and economic growth aren’t incompatible. America in the 1950s made the rich pay their fair share; it gave workers the power to bargain for decent wages and benefits; yet contrary to right-wing propaganda then and now, it prospered. And we can do that again.

The whole op-ed is at the Times: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

517 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:26:20am

Even when the enemy violates international law, and even when they show positive disdain for it, that does not free us from our own responsibilities. Put simply, civilians have a certain right to immunity no matter what the government they live under, or even vote for, is doing.

518 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:26:38am

re: #514 goddamnedfrank

It's like talking about how enormous my dick is. Some things are self evident and speak for themselves.

I've stayed out of this, but Art must have its due.

519 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:27:16am

re: #499 philosophus invidius

I don't understand the point of the question. Not a single person here ever came remotely close to setting up a moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas.

The Magical Balance Fairy keeps trying to go on Thanksgiving holiday but a bunch of idiots keep trying to invoke her.

You're right. No one here is sympathizing with Hamas. And yet, if you say that calling for Israel to flatten Gaza and to destroy it utterly is wrong, somehow, morons think that you're equating Israel and Hamas. WTF.

520 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:27:32am

If IDF actually did get the terrorists in that strike then I must take back what I said regarding "skirting the geneva convention" and humbly kiss the feet of Thomaslight, who I was arguing with about it yesterday upthread. I was wrong Thomaslight was right. If however they just took out an antenna and fired close enough to injure journalists, that's still at the edge in my book.

521 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:28:05am

re: #496 What, me worry?

Who is using nukes?

Gilad Sharon is not a politician. He's one man that does not share his ideas with the majority of Israel's population. In a free society, such as Israel, he has a voice too, even if it's wrong.

Israel could have carpet bombed Gaza 10x over. They have not. Instead they left the territory to give it to the Arabs. Wow, how horrible of them. The Arabs turned it into an armed camp. But you better believe if the shoe was on the other foot and Gaza had heavy artillery, there wouldn't be a Jew standing in Israel.

Rush Limbaugh is not a politician.

522 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:28:40am

re: #485 What, me worry?

You too :) But I don't think I can stay. I can't repost or see comments without reloading the page each time.

Clear your cache and temp files then reboot, see if that corrects it.

523 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:29:28am

@MJayRosenberg is Godwinning up a freaking storm on his Twitter feed, Israel not only worse than Hamas, they are worse the Hitleriest Hitler who ever Hittled.

He blocked me for calling him a "Dweeb" on my blog but I still see his bullshit when others RT.

524 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:30:32am

re: #514 goddamnedfrank

It's like talking about how enormous my dick is. Some things are self evident and speak for themselves.

This seems an appropriate reply to that comment.

525 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:32:23am

re: #514 goddamnedfrank

It's like talking about how enormous my dick is. Some things are self evident and speak for themselves.

LOL!! I'm having a hard time posting, but that tickled me O_o.

My point, if I didn't make it, is that Death to Jews is written in the constitution of Hamas. Some guy - Gilad Sharon - posts an op-ed firing off his frustration at being attacked and the world comes unhinged.

526 William of Orange  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:32:23am

I have sympathy for israel (though I think the settlement doctrine is criminal. It's regarded a wcrime.) But a rain of rockets no one will accept. But this opinion is quite sad if this is carried widely.

527 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:33:15am

re: #509 lgffan

Not germane to the discussion.

Only germane to a discussion of Iran that has no nukes? Talk of flattening an area of land, and having the ability to ACTUALLY do it is not germane? But condemning talk from the other side of annihilation of the enemy with no ACTUAL ability to do so IS germane?

528 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:33:56am

re: #525 What, me worry?

LOL!! I'm having a hard time posting, but that tickled me O_o.

My point, if I didn't make it, is that Death to Jews is written in the constitution of Hamas. Some guy - Gilad Sharon - posts an op-ed firing off his frustration at being attacked and the world comes unhinged.

The guy just happens to be the son of a former Israeli Prime Minister, and he didn't publish this crap on his personal blog or on his Twitter feed or Facebook page, it was published in the Jerusalem Post which is supposed to be a respected media source.

529 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:33:56am

re: #521 Eventual Carrion

Rush Limbaugh is not a politician.

Limbaugh has a huge amount of influence over the GOP.

530 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:34:03am

re: #525 What, me worry?

LOL!! I'm having a hard time posting, but that tickled me O_o.

My point, if I didn't make it, is that Death to Jews is written in the constitution of Hamas. Some guy - Gilad Sharon - posts an op-ed firing off his frustration at being attacked and the world comes unhinged.

Attempting to portray him as 'some guy' is silly. He's a Major in the IDF reserves and the son of Sharon. Come on.

Attempting to say his op ed is 'firing off his frustration at being attacked' is silly. He called for the flattening of Gaza. He called for something that'd result in hundreds of thousands of deaths.

What do you think the appropriate response to his call for massacre and war crimes is, exactly?

531 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:36:22am

re: #528 Vicious Babushka

The guy just happens to be the son of a former Israeli Prime Minister, and he didn't publish this crap on his personal blog or on his Twitter feed or Facebook page, it was published in the Jerusalem Post which is supposed to be a respected media source.

I follow a number of Israelis on Twitter and none of them agreed with this article. They agree (85% of the population) with the Pillar of Defense campaign, but blowing Gaza off the map is not a popular idea.

532 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:37:42am

re: #525 What, me worry?

LOL!! I'm having a hard time posting, but that tickled me O_o.

My point, if I didn't make it, is that Death to Jews is written in the constitution of Hamas. Some guy - Gilad Sharon - posts an op-ed firing off his frustration at being attacked and the world comes unhinged.

The thing is that this isn't a case of situational morality, where two things must be judged against one another. People can and will judge Sharon's statement and Hamas independent of one another, and find both gravely lacking.

533 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:38:03am

re: #530 Obdicut

Attempting to portray him as 'some guy' is silly. He's a Major in the IDF reserves and the son of Sharon. Come on.

Attempting to say his op ed is 'firing off his frustration at being attacked' is silly. He called for the flattening of Gaza. He called for something that'd result in hundreds of thousands of deaths.

What do you think the appropriate response to his call for massacre and war crimes is, exactly?

Uh... insane?

Every adult male and female is (or has been) in the service, so that doesn't make him special. If he held a position in the government, I'd be more concerned.

534 Kragar  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:38:24am

Farah: America is about to be 'Destroyed by God'

WorldNetDaily editor Joseph Farah has been beside himself over the President Obama’s election victory, writing that his re-election is proof that the U.S. is “where ancient Israel was before being destroyed by God.” He now claims that “the election, whether it was the result of voter fraud or stupidity or both, suggests America is turning rapidly away from God,” and now “we are in full apostasy boogie.”

I'm doing the Agnostic Tango myself.

535 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:38:47am

re: #529 What, me worry?

Limbaugh has a huge amount of influence over the GOP.

And the words from the son of a former PM doesn't have influence over some (hopefully not many) in his country?

536 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:39:04am

re: #525 What, me worry?

My point, if I didn't make it, is that Death to Jews is written in the constitution of Hamas. Some guy - Gilad Sharon - posts an op-ed firing off his frustration at being attacked and the world comes unhinged.

1. He's not "some guy". He's Ariel Sharon's son.

2. That op-ed was published in what is supposed to be a mainstream publication. Imagine if a similar editorial was published by the Washington Post.

3. So he's frustrated. Big fucking deal. A lot of people are frustrated with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That doesn't justify publicly calling for Gaza to be flattened to the ground and everyone in Gaza killed because there are supposedly no innocents there. Saying shit like that is counter-productive and only serves to make things worse.

537 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:39:51am

re: #534 Kragar

Farah: America is about to be 'Destroyed by God'

I'm doing the Agnostic Tango myself.

I've been doing the Atheist Waltz for a couple of decades now. It's quite relaxing.

538 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:39:54am

re: #532 goddamnedfrank

The thing is that this isn't a case of situational morality, where two things must be judged against one another. People can and will judge Sharon's statement and Hamas independent of one another, and find both gravely lacking.

Now that is 100% correct, but I've been reading my facebook and my twitter and the hatred for Israel is palpable. I don't get it and it makes me severely depressed.

539 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:40:22am

re: #533 What, me worry?

Uh... insane?

Insane? Why are you coming unhinged about it?

Every adult male and female is (or has been) in the service, so that doesn't make him special. If he held a position in the government, I'd be more concerned.

He's not just someone who served, he's got a command rank of major. He's an officer. And he's Sharon's son. Pretending that's not important is silly.

What is the harm in condemning this article? I don't get it. What do you fear will happen if you condemn it?

540 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:40:39am

Btw, I'm don't want to clear my cache. I have too many things I want there.

541 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:40:52am

re: #533 What, me worry?

Should you be concerned if he's posturing for future votes from Israel Beiteinu?

542 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:41:10am

re: #540 What, me worry?

Btw, I'm don't want to clear my cache. I have too many things I want there.

What browser?

543 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:41:35am

re: #539 Obdicut

What is the harm in condemning this article? I don't get it. What do you fear will happen if you condemn it?

Apparently, condemning the article is a victory for Hamas. Or something.

544 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:42:21am

re: #540 What, me worry?

Btw, I'm don't want to clear my cache. I have too many things I want there.

Flatten it.

/

545 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:42:54am

re: #533 What, me worry?

Uh... insane?

Every adult male and female is (or has been) in the service, so that doesn't make him special. If he held a position in the government, I'd be more concerned.

Israeli men generally must serve in the military, its true, but this guy's reserve position is that of a field-grade officer, which is a position of significant trust.

546 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:43:00am

re: #542 Vicious Babushka

What browser?

I use Firefox, but I'm having the same problem with IE. I tried it there.

I can't use preview or Show Users. I can't look at down/updings, tho I can use them. I can't view profiles either.

547 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:43:46am

re: #546 What, me worry?

Chrome.

548 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:43:47am

re: #546 What, me worry?

I use Firefox, but I'm having the same problem with IE. I tried it there.

I can't use preview or Show Users. I can't look at down/updings, tho I can use them. I can't view profiles either.

Firefox crapped out for me. I've been using Chrome.

549 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:46:10am

re: #548 Vicious Babushka

Firefox crapped out for me. I've been using Chrome.

Chrome > Firefox.

I used Firefox for ages then it just became a gnarly mess. Chrome is much better. Of course, I use an Android phone, so my bias is showing.

550 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:46:34am

Lebanese Army Dismantles Rockets Aimed at Israel

Lebanese military experts on Monday dismantled two Katyusha rockets that were equipped with timers and ready to fire at Israel, a senior Lebanese security official said.

The official said the rockets found near the south Lebanon village of Halta were set up about four kilometers (2.5 miles) away from the Lebanon-Israel border. The weapons were rigged with timers and likely would have been launched had the army not intervened, he said. He did not say when the rockets were meant to be fired.

551 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:46:52am

Ohhh I don't use Chrome. I'll have to try it.

552 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:47:56am

re: #551 What, me worry?

I has some nifty stuff, but be aware - it's built for speed and most frills come through add ons and extensions. I love it compared to IE and FF.

553 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:48:19am

Good grief, when did I say that we shouldn't condemn the article? I didn't give it much weight and I don't think most Israelis do either. It's a rant. Why Jpost published, it have no idea. There are plenty of articles that don't say anything like that, but still support Israel and the campaign.

554 RadicalModerate  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:50:11am

re: #546 What, me worry?

I use Firefox, but I'm having the same problem with IE. I tried it there.

I can't use preview or Show Users. I can't look at down/updings, tho I can use them. I can't view profiles either.

I think all of those are Java functions. Maybe there's something going wrong with your installation of Java, or you have something blocking some functionality of it?

One other trick that you might want to try if a page isn't rendering properly and you don't want to clear your cache is to do a forced reload of the page you're browsing. Most browsers use CTRL-F5 to accomplish this.

555 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:50:17am

re: #553 What, me worry?

Good grief, when did I say that we shouldn't condemn the article? I didn't give it much weight and I don't think most Israelis do either. It's a rant. Why Jpost published, it have no idea. There are plenty of articles that don't say anything like that, but still support Israel and the campaign.

The fact that JPost published it, is cause for concern. It could be logically inferred that JPost approves this message.

556 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:50:53am

re: #553 What, me worry?

Good grief, when did I say that we shouldn't condemn the article? I didn't give it much weight and I don't think most Israelis do either. It's a rant. Why Jpost published, it have no idea. There are plenty of articles that don't say anything like that, but still support Israel and the campaign.

So what are you actually complaining about?

557 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:51:51am

re: #553 What, me worry?

I didn't give it much weight and I don't think most Israelis do either. It's a rant.

It's a rant from the son of a former Israeli PM that calls for Gaza to be flattened to the ground and destroyed.

Calling that editorial ill-advised, stupid, and counter-productive is putting it mildly. It should never have been published.

558 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:51:57am

Good guys aren't supposed to rant about flattening large tracts of densely populated land.

559 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:52:00am

re: #555 Vicious Babushka

I wouldn't go as far as to say they approve since it is an Op ed, but they are allowing a large voice to some extreme sentiment.

560 Kragar  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:52:38am

Marco Rubio Flirts With Creationism, Says He’s Unsure How Old The Earth Is

Scientists agree: the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. But don’t tell that to Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) — he thinks the age of the Earth can be discovered by studying the Bible.

In an interview with GQ magazine, Rubio suggested that the age of the Earth was “a dispute among theologians” and that there is no way to know the truth about the age of the Earth:

Moron.

561 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:53:15am

Israeli special forces on the ground in Gaza seeking out hidden rocket sites, British paper claims

Israeli special forces are deployed in Gaza searching for hidden rockets and weapons, the Sunday Times reported on Sunday, amid fears that a desperate Hamas might affix chemical weapons to its remaining long-range Fajr-5 missiles.

According to the report in the London weekly, which was not attributed to any source, the commandos are looking for missiles hidden underground, a favorite tactic of Hamas.

As Gaza terrorists over the weekend targeted Tel Aviv, a concern for Israeli officials is the threat that Hamas may fit chemical warheads on its long-range Fajr-5 missiles, the newspaper said, quoting an unnamed defense source.

“Hamas might go for a desperate attempt to launch rockets with chemical warheads if the worst came to the worst,” the source said.

The Sunday Times report (behind a paywall) also gave details of how Israel finally killed Hamas military commander Ahmed Jabari, whose targeting was the opening shot of Pillar of Defense.

Jabari had long been at the top of Israel’s hit-list for his central role in overseeing terror attacks on Israelis. Paranoid about an attempt on his life, Jabari never carried a mobile phone and constantly switched between vehicles in a fleet he used for transport.

562 erik_t  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:53:38am

re: #559 Randall Gross

I wouldn't go as far as to say they approve since it is an Op ed, but they are allowing a large voice to some extreme sentiment.

They do not necessarily approve, but they do sanction it as a legitimate view that can be held in good and reasonable faith.

563 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:53:59am

Has Sharon been a regular Op Ed columnist there, or is this a first?

564 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:54:00am

re: #556 Obdicut

So what are you actually complaining about?

My first post, Obdi. One Jew makes a rant against flattening Gaza and no mention of the Hamas charter which is far more egregious. I'm not talking about mentioning it 5 years ago.

565 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:54:23am

Here's some amateur video of the attack on the militans in the media building today.
IAF strikes 4 terrorists hiding in media building
Pretty amazing shot to hit one of the lower floors with all the other buildings around.

566 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:54:58am

re: #564 What, me worry?

My first post, Obdi. One Jew makes a rant against flattening Gaza and no mention of the Hamas charter which is far more egregious. I'm not talking about mentioning it 5 years ago.

Oh for fuck's sake. This is LGF. Almost everyone here is extremely well-informed on Israel/Palestine.

You seriously, are trying to fucking say the last time anyone here mentioned the Hamas charter was five years ago? Really? Come on.

567 efuseakay  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:55:15am

I have a simple question for those of you defending this cretin.

One justification I often see is that the Palestinians voted for Hamas, so they should suffer as a whole, irregardless of the fact that not all of them voted. And not all of those that voted even voted for Hamas.

Now lets then that around. In Israel, everyone is required to serve in the military. So, wouldn't that in turn justify what Hamas is doing? In their eyes, every Israeli has served in the military, so they are all legitimate targets.

Strange how looking at both sides of the coin makes one come to the conclusion that this is a shitty situation , and that "leveling Gaza" or any place, is in no way a solution.

568 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:55:43am

re: #550 NJDhockeyfan

Lebanese Army Dismantles Rockets Aimed at Israel

That's good news.

569 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:55:44am

The views expressed in this op-ed do not reflect the editorial line of The Jerusalem Post at the bottom of the article.

570 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:56:08am

re: #565 Killgore Trout

Here's some amateur video of the attack on the militans in the media building today.
IAF strikes 4 terrorists hiding in media building
Pretty amazing shot to hit one of the lower floors with all the other buildings around.

They only got the terrorists.

571 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:56:15am

Part of the Gilad Sharon quote just showed up in Public Administration queue over at FSTDT...

There is no justification for the State of Gaza being able to shoot at our towns with impunity. We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.

There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire.

Were this to happen, the images from Gaza might be unpleasant – but victory would be swift, and the lives of our soldiers and civilians spared.

I of course voted to approve it for publication.

572 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:57:01am
573 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:57:24am

re: #560 Kragar

Marco Rubio Flirts With Creationism, Says He’s Unsure How Old The Earth Is

In an interview with GQ magazine, Rubio suggested that the age of the Earth was “a dispute among theologians” and that there is no way to know the truth about the age of the Earth:

Moron.

So they've answered the "number of angels on the head of a pin" question finally? Because I don't think they should waste their valuable time on the age of the earth when they haven't yet solved the really important questions.

574 Gus  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:58:09am

re: #560 Kragar

Marco Rubio Flirts With Creationism, Says He’s Unsure How Old The Earth Is

Moron.

575 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:59:01am

re: #564 What, me worry?

My first post, Obdi. One Jew makes a rant against flattening Gaza and no mention of the Hamas charter which is far more egregious. I'm not talking about mentioning it 5 years ago.

Fuck Hamas and fuck Gilad Sharon.

576 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:59:07am

re: #560 Kragar

Marco Rubio Flirts With Creationism, Says He’s Unsure How Old The Earth Is

Moron.

And he's supposedly a shining light of the GOP's future. WTF.

Science isn't a gotcha question. At least for sane people. If Marco Rubio can't bring himself to acknowledge the age of the Earth because he's afraid of offending his political base, then fuck him.

577 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:59:15am

re: #570 NJDhockeyfan

They only got the terrorists.

[Embedded content]

Here's another angle

Youtube Video
578 efuseakay  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:59:31am

re: #558 Varek Raith

Good guys aren't supposed to rant about flattening large tracts of densely populated land.

Huge tracts of land?

(Sorry)

579 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:59:50am

re: #572 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Nice.

580 Kragar  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 9:59:52am

re: #574 Gus

/facepalm

581 I Am Kreniigh!  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:00:00am

"Eyes and teeth will fill the streets."
- World/Inferno Friendship Society

582 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:00:14am

re: #578 efuseakay

Huge tracts of land?

(Sorry)

Walked right into that one.

583 efuseakay  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:00:22am

re: #570 NJDhockeyfan

They only got the terrorists.

If you believe them, sure...

584 Four More Tears  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:01:04am

re: #560 Kragar

Marco Rubio Flirts With Creationism, Says He’s Unsure How Old The Earth Is

Moron.

Hey, that's the Republicans' future you're talking about there...

585 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:01:30am

re: #583 efuseakay

If you believe them, sure...

I'll take the IDF's word over that of Hamas, and you should too.

586 Kragar  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:01:54am

re: #576 Lidane

And he's supposedly a shining light of the GOP's future. WTF.

Science isn't a gotcha question. At least for sane people. If Marco Rubio can't bring himself to acknowledge the age of the Earth because he's afraid of offending his political base, then fuck him.

But he's Hispanic! He shows the GOP is inclusive! He'll win back the Latino vote for the GOP! Who cares if he's a complete fucking idiot?
/

587 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:02:23am
A convicted serial killer claims to be responsible for one of the country’s most notorious murders, according to a documentary set to air on Discovery this week.

The Daily Mail reported early Monday that serial killer Glen Rogers admitted to killing Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman-the murders for which O.J. Simpson was accused.

Police captured Rogers in Richmond, Kentucky in 1995 after a nationwide manhunt.

Rogers' brother, Clay, told documentary producers that Rogers confessed to the murders.

Allegedly Rogers said that O.J. Simpson hired him to break into Nicole Brown Simpson's home and steal $20,000 diamond earrings and kill her if necessary.

Rogers, who is from Hamilton, Ohio, was reportedly working in the area at the time of the murders and had allegedly even done some work for Brown Simpson.

Read more: [Link: www.kshb.com...]

588 efuseakay  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:03:24am

re: #564 What, me worry?

My first post, Obdi. One Jew makes a rant against flattening Gaza and no mention of the Hamas charter which is far more egregious. I'm not talking about mentioning it 5 years ago.

Israel has nukes. Tanks. Jets. Ships. What does Hamas have that could make their wishes come true?

589 Henchman Ghazi-808  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:04:20am

I'm unsure of how old the earth is: 4.485 billion or 4.5986 billion years old. Scientists are unsure.

590 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:04:32am

re: #588 efuseakay

Israel has nukes. Tanks. Jets. Ships. What does Hamas have that could make their wishes come true?

Apparently, a mission statement.

591 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:04:46am

Second day of strikes on Gaza media building

Youtube Video

The guy at 0:30 pulls his shirt over his face while being evacuated.
592 RadicalModerate  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:06:41am

re: #560 Kragar

Marco Rubio Flirts With Creationism, Says He’s Unsure How Old The Earth Is

Moron.

Honestly, there is only one correct way to answer this question.

"Geological data states that Earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old, give or take a couple hundred million years. Many theologians may disagree with this. However, that discussion belongs within the realm of their expertise, be it a church or a comparative religion course - not in a science classroom."

593 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:07:09am

re: #588 efuseakay

Israel has nukes. Tanks. Jets. Ships. What does Hamas have that could make their wishes come true?

In 2001 they had rockets that can go 1 mile. By 2005 WHEN ISRAEL LEFT GAZA SO THEY COULD FORM THEIR OWN SOCIETY but instead turned the place into an armed camp, they developed rockets that could go about 12 miles. Today, with the help of Iran, the Sudan and Egypt, they have rockets that can go 45 miles.

If you think Israel isn't going to defend themselves, no matter how much the world hates it, you would be wrong.

594 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:07:23am
Youtube Video
595 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:08:23am

re: #588 efuseakay

Israel has nukes. Tanks. Jets. Ships. What does Hamas have that could make their wishes come true?

The fevered dreams of its fanatical leadership? Magical fairy dust?

Seriously -- Hamas isn't an existential threat to Israel. When it comes down to firepower, organization, and manpower, Israel wins hands down. All the mortar strikes in the world from Hamas aren't going to change that. If anything, they're only going to make life worse for the innocent people in Gaza that are caught in the crossfire.

596 Kragar  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:08:24am

Got to love the Private Prison system:

Facing Rates Of $17 For 15 Minutes, FCC Takes Up Regulation Of Prison Phone Industry

Phone calls between prisoners and their families can cost as much as $17 for a 15-minute call, reaping generous profits in many states for both the phone companies that provide the service and the states, which receive what amount to legalized kickbacks. Recognizing the drastic obstacle these costs impose on children staying in touch with their parents, a bipartisan coalition launched a campaign this past Mother’s Day calling for regulation of this industry. On Thursday, the Federal Communications Commission entertained these calls, announcing at a rally that it would seek public comment on prison phone rules and rates. In a scathing September report, the Prison Policy Initiative’s Drew Kukorowski explains why the industry needs regulating:

Exorbitant calling rates make the prison telephone industry one of the most lucrative businesses in the United States today. This industry is so profitable because prison phone companies have state-sanctioned monopolistic control over the state prison markets, and the government agency with authority to rein in these rates across the nation has been reluctant to offer meaningful relief.

Prison phone companies are awarded these monopolies through bidding processes in which they submit contract proposals to the state prison systems; in all but eight states, these contracts include promises to pay “commissions” — in effect, kickbacks — to states, in either the form of a percentage of revenue, a fixed up-front payment, or a combination of the two. Thus, state prison systems have no incentive to select the telephone company that offers the lowest rates; rather, correctional departments have an incentive to reap the most profit by selecting the telephone company that provides the highest commission.

The prison telephone market is structured to be exploitative because it grants monopolies to producers, and because the consumers — the incarcerated persons and their families who are actually footing the bills — have no comparable alternative ways of communicating.

Florida Lays Off State Workers After Outsourcing Prisoners’ Health Care To A Private Company

As the Miami Herald reports, nearly 2,000 state workers are beginning to receive notices that their jobs are ending, as part of the nation’s biggest push to outsource prisoners’ health care to private companies:

“Due to the outsourcing of this function, your position will be deleted,” reads a dryly worded dismissal notice from the Department of Corrections, sent to 1,890 state employees in the past two weeks. [...]

In the dismissal letters, prison officials emphasize that dismissed workers will get first consideration for new jobs at one of the two for-profit vendors, though with fewer benefits. The workers also expect to pay more out of their pockets for their own health insurance.

Many make less than $35,000 a year, have not had a raise in six years and live in economically distressed areas home to many state prisons, including Bradford, Dixie, Levy, Suwannee and Union counties.

597 Gus  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:08:39am

re: #589 Kronocide

I'm unsure of how old the earth is: 4.485 billion or 4.5986 billion years old. Scientists are unsure.

Just say "billions and billions" in a Carl Sagan voice. //

598 Henchman Ghazi-808  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:08:58am

Dubstep explained

599 What, me worry?  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:09:04am

But it's good to know "some folks" would like Hamas' wishes to come true.

See ya'll later.

600 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:09:19am

re: #593 What, me worry?

If you think Israel isn't going to defend themselves, no matter how much the world hates it, you would be wrong.

Find a single person here who has said that Israel shouldn't defend itself.

Go on. I'll wait.

601 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:09:24am

re: #597 Gus

Just say "billions and billions" in a Carl Sagan voice. //

Youtube Video
602 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:09:27am

re: #599 What, me worry?

But it's good to know "some folks" would like Hamas' wishes to come true.

See ya'll later.

What a lame, cowardly cheap shot.

603 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:10:07am

re: #599 What, me worry?

WTF.

604 Gus  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:10:10am

re: #599 What, me worry?

But it's good to know "some folks" would like Hamas' wishes to come true.

See ya'll later.

I am disappoint.

605 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:10:19am

re: #599 What, me worry?

But it's good to know "some folks" would like Hamas' wishes to come true.

See ya'll later.

That's just a fucking ignorant statement and you know it.

Dumbass.

606 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:10:33am

re: #604 Gus

I am disappoint.

So is Jesusaurus.

607 Kragar  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:12:05am

re: #606 Varek Raith

So is Jesusaurus.

Everyone knows Jesus was a Raptor.

608 GunstarGreen  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:12:13am

re: #482 Four More Tears

This is story is from Thursday. Let that sink in...

Shoppers already lined up for Black Friday

I feel that it is a pretty damning indictment of American society's blind focus on materialism and The Having of Stuff that people are prepared to waste an entire week of their lives sitting outside of a store so they can Buy More Stuff.

609 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:12:49am

re: #606 Varek Raith

So is Jesusaurus.

Image: 718396.jpg

610 RediSlip  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:13:48am

re: #593 What, me worry?

In 2001 they had rockets that can go 1 mile. By 2005 WHEN ISRAEL LEFT GAZA SO THEY COULD FORM THEIR OWN SOCIETY but instead turned the place into an armed camp, they developed rockets that could go about 12 miles. Today, with the help of Iran, the Sudan and Egypt, they have rockets that can go 45 miles.

If you think Israel isn't going to defend themselves, no matter how much the world hates it, you would be wrong.

Israel has a right defend themselves, but the Palestinians also have the same right. So what's your point?

611 efuseakay  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:14:31am

re: #593 What, me worry?

In 2001 they had rockets that can go 1 mile. By 2005 WHEN ISRAEL LEFT GAZA SO THEY COULD FORM THEIR OWN SOCIETY but instead turned the place into an armed camp, they developed rockets that could go about 12 miles. Today, with the help of Iran, the Sudan and Egypt, they have rockets that can go 45 miles.

If you think Israel isn't going to defend themselves, no matter how much the world hates it, you would be wrong.

Ok. So Hamas has unguided rockets. Israel still has nukes. Jets. Tanks. Ships. Seems you completely miss the point. Israel of course has a right to defend themselves. Do the Palestinians also have that right?

612 erik_t  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:14:38am

Lots of true colors being shown in the last 24 hours.

Very disappointing.

613 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:14:52am

BBL

614 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:15:15am

re: #609 Obdicut

Image: 718396.jpg

Your argument is invalid.
Image: Raptor_80ecb8_488085.jpg

615 erik_t  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:15:34am

re: #614 Varek Raith

Your argument is invalid.
Image: Raptor_80ecb8_488085.jpg

So is your link ;)

616 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:15:43am

re: #607 Kragar

Why bring Canada (Toronto) into this? /

617 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:15:55am

re: #611 efuseakay


The Palestinians desperately need self defense. Totally. But they need it against the warlord kings Hamas. Not freaking Israel.

618 efuseakay  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:16:00am

re: #599 What, me worry?

But it's good to know "some folks" would like Hamas' wishes to come true.

See ya'll later.

Dropping a whopper like that and running away? Fucking chickenshit.

619 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:16:02am

re: #610 RediSlip

Israel has a right defend themselves, but the Palestinians also have the same right. So what's your point?

How about you explain why you linked to that crazy article that solely blames Israel and the US for the situation?

620 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:16:21am

re: #615 erik_t

So is your link ;)

What...
Damn.
Works on my end.
I blame Bush.

621 Kragar  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:16:28am

re: #609 Obdicut

Image: 718396.jpg

Image: Allah-Saurus.jpg

622 CuriousLurker  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:16:34am

re: #599 What, me worry?

But it's good to know "some folks" would like Hamas' wishes to come true.

See ya'll later.

Marjorie, I consider you a friend and because of that I don't think I've ever down-dinged you until now no matter how vehemently I disagreed with you, but that was way, WAY out of bounds. No one here deserved that.

623 efuseakay  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:18:13am

re: #617 Daniel Ballard

The Palestinians desperately need self defense. Totally. But they need it against the warlord kings Hamas. Not freaking Israel.

Israel is the one bombing them. You wouldn't see it that way if you were in their shoes. Didn't a whole family get wiped out yesterday? Mother and children? How is that helping?

624 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:18:32am

No Buddhasaurus?
I haz a sad.

625 CuriousLurker  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:19:00am

Gah, this shit poisons everything it touches.

I have a meeting in Newark to go to. Later, lizards.

626 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:19:32am

re: #623 efuseakay

Israel is the one bombing them. You wouldn't see it that way if you were in their shoes. Didn't a whole family get wiped out yesterday? Mother and children? How is that helping?

Civilian deaths are inevitable in any armed conflict. It's not a useful position that because there are civilian deaths, therefore the action is wrong.

You're not doing a good job of making your point.

627 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:20:03am

re: #622 CuriousLurker

No idea what the deal is. Does everybody need to put a disclaimer before every post condemning Hamas (stating the obvious to the oblivious) or something?

628 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:21:01am

re: #627 Ghost of Tom Joad

No idea what the deal is. Does everybody need to put a disclaimer before every post condemning Hamas (stating the obvious to the oblivious) or something?

No, everything on this list.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

629 RadicalModerate  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:21:43am

re: #608 GunstarGreen

I feel that it is a pretty damning indictment of American society's blind focus on materialism and The Having of Stuff that people are prepared to waste an entire week of their lives sitting outside of a store so they can Buy More Stuff.

What's even worse is the fact that most of these Black Friday "deals" that people are seeing are moderate price reductions at best. Also, if they are looking for cheap electronics, most of the stores that offer those also have online stores offering similar (if not the same) deals, and many will ship to your home for free. Granted, there is the adrenaline rush you get from the large crowds of shoppers, but I tend to prefer to save that for my flurry of last-minute shopping.

630 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:24:25am

If the attack against the media center that took out key Islamic Jihad terrorists occurred during Operation Cast Lead, the IAF would probably have had to level the entire building to get the terrorists with an unacceptable amount of civilian casualties, or they'd have to not target the building at all because of the risk of casualties.

Now? The IAF has the means to target specific floors of buildings with airstrikes without causing damage to other parts of the same building.

Hamas must be wondering just how precise the IDF strikes have become that they could take out specific floors, and that might be playing into how and why they want a ceasefire (though still on Hamas terms - eliminate the blockade for instance).

I'm wondering whether there were Sayaret Matkal or other similar units on the ground pinpointing the strike in conjunction with IAF and IDF units.

If Israel's capabilities extend to specific floors of buildings, that could mean that the Hamas attempts to embed into civilian areas might not be sufficient anymore - Hamas will either start suffering losses at higher levels or they'll integrate even deeper into the Gazan civilian population to push up civilian casualties. Both are likely outcomes.

631 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:24:40am

re: #623 efuseakay

And what else is there amongst the family? Hamas missile installation or storage maybe? Which do you think were the intended target? Of course we know weapons go astray. Intel can be wrong. A pilot can screw up. I get it.

but if they can't bomb, they have to invade. That would be far worse for all involved.

I have friends from Lebanon. They told me what it was like to have weapons aimed at Israel or Israeli jets on your next door neighbors roof or garden.

632 Kragar  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:25:23am

Robertson: 'Miserable' Atheists Trying to 'Steal' Christmas

Host Pat Robertson warned that “the Grinch is trying to steal our holiday” as “miserable” atheists “want to steal your holiday away from you” simply because they can’t stand the joy of Christmas. “Atheists don’t like our happiness, they don’t want you to be happy, they want you to be miserable,” he said. “They’re miserable so they want you to be miserable.”

633 RediSlip  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:25:40am

re: #490 Randall Gross

Seriously? Posting stuff from Counterpunch where Israel Shamir is a contributor?

True Counterpunch has its moments but last time I checked, Jonathan Cook was not Israel Shamir.

634 efuseakay  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:25:51am

re: #626 Obdicut

Civilian deaths are inevitable in any armed conflict. It's not a useful position that because there are civilian deaths, therefore the action is wrong.

You're not doing a good job of making your point.

My point is that there are innocents in Gaza. Some here seem to not believe that.

635 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:25:51am

re: #608 GunstarGreen

I feel that it is a pretty damning indictment of American society's blind focus on materialism and The Having of Stuff that people are prepared to waste an entire week of their lives sitting outside of a store so they can Buy More Stuff.

There's not (realistically) a bargain or sale of any description that could persuade me to camp out in front of a store and jack around with the absolute mob mentality that is associated with Black Friday. I take my materialism with a stiff shot of laziness, so if I can't buy it on line, I usually don't want it anyway.

636 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:26:43am

re: #611 efuseakay

Ok. So Hamas has unguided rockets. Israel still has nukes. Jets. Tanks. Ships. Seems you completely miss the point. Israel of course has a right to defend themselves. Do the Palestinians also have that right?

I suppose they do but Palestinians rocket attacks have no defensive military purpose. Even their offensive capabilities are next to useless. As for the rest of the "right of resistance" crap like taking hostages, suicide bombings and general terrorism do not fall under the umbrella of defensive. Israel doesn't occupy Gaza, they want nothing to do with Gaza. The only reason they are involved at all is because of the constant terrorist activity. Hamas and other terrorist groups have nothing to do with self defense.

637 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:26:44am

re: #634 efuseakay

My point is that there are innocents in Gaza. Some here seem to not believe that.

Name names. Who doesn't believe there are innocents in Gaza?

638 GunstarGreen  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:26:45am

re: #626 Obdicut

Civilian deaths are inevitable in any armed conflict. It's not a useful position that because there are civilian deaths, therefore the action is wrong.

You're not doing a good job of making your point.

A little boy loses his father, an innocent man that had nothing to do with Hamas, to the explosion of an Israeli bomb.

That little boy is simply told "Tough shit kid, civvies die in war. It was for a good cause."

People wonder why hostilities in the region continue.

639 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:27:21am

Journalists: If you must interview terrorists then it's best you go to them rather than endanger your fellow journalists. Of course there's always that Daniel Pearl type of interview opportunity that you have to worry about when you go to them.

640 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:27:36am

re: #638 GunstarGreen

Who's telling the boy "Tough shit, kid", exactly?

641 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:28:21am

re: #629 RadicalModerate

I brave the crowds for Black Friday because I'll use it as an opportunity for picking up items I might not have considered (aka stocking stuffers) or clothes that I wouldn't normally buy online anyways.

But I wouldn't sit out all night for the deals that might only be available in such limited quantities that it makes little sense to queue up. And the deals I'm seeing on BFADS.net or other similar sites aren't jumping out as huge deals worth the time and effort.

And I've already done most of my holiday shopping. Still have to go to stores to get a few things, but the bulk is done.

642 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:28:22am

re: #635 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

The whole thing is silly and stupid. People literally get trampled to death for this crap.

I always think of Tommy Lee Jones' quote from MIB. "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals and you know it."

643 RadicalModerate  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:29:51am

re: #596 Kragar

Got to love the Private Prison system:

Facing Rates Of $17 For 15 Minutes, FCC Takes Up Regulation Of Prison Phone Industry

Florida Lays Off State Workers After Outsourcing Prisoners’ Health Care To A Private Company

But remember,

"THE FREE MARKET WILL BREAK FIX IT!!"

644 Kragar  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:30:14am

re: #641 lawhawk

And I've already done most of my holiday shopping. Still have to go to stores to get a few things, but the bulk is done.

Why do you hate America?

645 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:30:41am

re: #629 RadicalModerate

Black Friday is obnoxious. I do all my Christmas shopping online and have everything shipped to people.

It also helps that I tend to buy food-related gifts like pumpkin rolls, Bûche de Noël cakes and Dresdner Stollen cakes. That way, my cousins and relatives get gifts they can share with their guests and there's less guesswork involved for me.

646 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:31:08am

re: #638 GunstarGreen

And what does a Hamas spokeshole say to a kid that lost his parents to a missile strike? Something like "tough shit kid you and your country must be eliminated, just read the charter"

There is no moral equivalence between offensive attacks and defensive attacks like what we have seen last week.

647 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:32:10am

re: #644 Kragar

Hate Israel is so passe/taken? ////////////////

648 GunstarGreen  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:32:20am

re: #640 Obdicut

Who's telling the boy "Tough shit, kid", exactly?

The people that say that "civilian deaths are inevitable in armed conflict", and therefor holding the wagers of war accountable for civilian casualties is "not a useful position".

To that kid, it most certainly is a "useful position".

649 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:32:50am

re: #647 lawhawk

Hate Israel is so passe/taken? ////////////////

It is. You should just support Hamas with the rest of us. //

650 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:33:08am

re: #648 GunstarGreen

The people that say that "civilian deaths are inevitable in armed conflict", and therefor holding the wagers of war accountable for civilian casualties is "not a useful position".

To that kid, it most certainly is a "useful position".

Really? What use is it to him?

So, to be clear, you don't think civilian deaths are inevitable in armed conflict?

651 Henchman Ghazi-808  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:34:05am

Hey GOP, take the Palin cure

She's hot, she's blue collar, she's electable.

OMG I'm in tears reading that one.

652 recusancy  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:34:15am

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

No, he hedged it just right. The question was a 'gotcha', and one he had to avoid answering.

LOL

653 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:35:12am

re: #648 GunstarGreen

Also, are the wagers of war Hamas, who have fired hundreds of rockets into Israel over the past month, or Israel, for finally retaliating?

654 erik_t  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:35:34am

re: #651 Kronocide

Hey GOP, take the Palin cure

That's a dumber op-ed than Sharon's.

/

655 jaunte  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:36:06am

re: #651 Kronocide

"Palin can more than keep up with the Democrats in appealing to voters' emotions. Hardly anyone could be more blue collar than Palin, out on the fishing boat with her hunky blue-collar husband, Todd. Palin is "View"-ready, she's "Ellen"-ready, she's Kelly-and-Michael-ready."

I'm retch-ready.

656 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:36:56am

A decent article about Iran's role in the Gaza crisis.
Iran's fingerprints on Hamas weaponry, but its larger role in Israel-Gaza crisis remains murky
Including discussion of the facility in Sudan which was bombed a few weeks ago.

657 Henchman Ghazi-808  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:37:16am

re: #655 jaunte

I'm retch-ready.

Read it, you'll be in tears.

Sarah Palin is the new Ronald Reagan: charming and affable and unwilling to back down if she's right. I can't see what's wrong with that.

658 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:37:34am

Ok cupcake and banana milkshakes are getting a thumbs up from me this am.

659 prairiefire  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:39:14am

re: #409 Obdicut

No, Dark, he didn't. The age of the earth is not a question for theologians. What he said was anti-science, and stupid.

And provided the script for anti-Rubio campaign ads. And threw out the red meat for every journalist to hound him on this point for years.

660 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:39:19am

re: #648 GunstarGreen

The Hamas-Israel war hasn't stopped since Hamas took over in Gaza in 2006. Thousands of rockets fired into Israel, each with the intent to cause damage and/or start fires in Israeli properties/land, and kill and main Israelis.

In a "quiet" year, hundreds of these rockets and mortars have been fired into Israel.

Israel does more than any other country to minimize civilian casualties, but it's exceedingly tough to do when Hamas embeds in civilian areas, purposefully wears civilian clothes to blend in when the need arises (during Cast Lead for instance, there were reports of Hamas thugs switching out of uniforms into civilian clothes to avoid detection).

In after action reports from Cast Lead, it turned out that the number of civilians were overcounted, and Hamas took it on the chin. We'll see something similar with the current military operation against Hamas.

Is one civilian casualty too high? That's not the standard under international law, even as Israel looks to minimize those casualties. Israel isn't going out of its way to target civilians; that would be in violation of international law and human rights laws (Geneva Conventions). At the same time, Hamas continually violates those same international laws by hiding behind civilians and purposefully putting them in harm's way.

In other words, the people who wrote the human rights laws and laws of war recognized that the object need be minimize civilian casualties, avoiding total war and purposeful targeting of civilians. It was hoped to minimize civilian casualties.

It would seem that you're trying to hold Israel to a standard of conduct that simply doesn't exist.

661 GunstarGreen  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:39:58am

re: #650 Obdicut

Really? What use is it to him?

So, to be clear, you don't think civilian deaths are inevitable in armed conflict?

The use it has for him is that his father might be alive if methods other than bombing the place were employed. If people considered the loss of civilian life a failure scenario instead of an "inevitability" that nobody is responsible for.

In the kind of armed conflict being engaged in over there? Yes they are inevitable. That is not my point.

My point is that there are better ways. Perhaps the money spent on bombs and jet fuel and the like could be better spent on coming up with better anti-rocket defensive technologies. Modern combat ships, for instance, have defensive turrets designed to shoot down incoming anti-ship missiles. Perhaps a version for use on land against incoming rockets could be developed?

Every time you go to take out "The Terrorists" and wind up killing somebody's father/son/brother/uncle/cousin (or female equivalents), then write it off as "inevitable civilian casualties", you defeat your own purpose. You give more people a reason to think that maybe "The Terrorists" are on to something.

662 Gus  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:39:59am

re: #651 Kronocide

Hey GOP, take the Palin cure

OMG I'm in tears reading that one.

Oh geeze. There's a rumor going around that the LATimes might be sold to News Corpse.

663 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:40:27am

re: #655 jaunte

I'm retch-ready.

Good lord....starbursts!

664 Gus  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:42:33am

Some of her other work: P.Z. Myers: Why is Charlotte Allen so mad at atheists? - latimes.com

Apparently she's a writer for the Weakly Standard.

665 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:43:05am

re: #656 Killgore Trout

A decent article about Iran's role in the Gaza crisis.
Iran's fingerprints on Hamas weaponry, but its larger role in Israel-Gaza crisis remains murky
Including discussion of the facility in Sudan which was bombed a few weeks ago.

Iran benefits if Hamas goads Israel into a war in Gaza.

666 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:43:16am

re: #661 GunstarGreen

The use it has for him is that his father might be alive if methods other than bombing the place were employed.

Methods other than bombing can produce zero civilian casualties? What are they?

If people considered the loss of civilian life a failure scenario instead of an "inevitability" that nobody is responsible for.

So you really don't think that civilian deaths are inevitable? Can you explain how you would attack the rocket launching sites and groups without endangering citizens, please?

My point is that there are better ways. Perhaps the money spent on bombs and jet fuel and the like could be better spent on coming up with better anti-rocket defensive technologies. Modern combat ships, for instance, have defensive turrets designed to shoot down incoming anti-ship missiles. Perhaps a version for use on land against incoming rockets could be developed?

Are you trolling? Do you not know about Iron Dome?

Every time you go to take out "The Terrorists" and wind up killing somebody's father/son/brother/uncle/cousin (or female equivalents), then write it off as "inevitable civilian casualties", you defeat your own purpose. You give more people a reason to think that maybe "The Terrorists" are on to something.

Who's writing it off? That civilian casualties are inevitable is a fact. It's not a happy or pleasant fact, but it's a fact.

You're not arguing with me. You're arguing with a cartoon version of me. Plus the whole thing about "Maybe they could develop some sort of ground-based missile shield"-- are you just paying zero attention?

667 GunstarGreen  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:44:51am

re: #653 Obdicut

re: #660 lawhawk

Also understand that this is not an indictment of Isreal in particular. By the modern standards of warfare they've behaved quite admirably in most cases. I'm simply saying that the nature of the conflict in the middle east is such that conventional notions of "acceptable collateral damage" are not workable. It is exceedingly difficult to explain to a man who grew up fatherless because of a given country's military action that it is wrong for him to think of that country as a bunch of murderers.

668 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:46:21am

re: #632 Kragar

Robertson: 'Miserable' Atheists Trying to 'Steal' Christmas

I wouldn't mind it if Pat Robertson spent a little time being miserable. Unlike Robertson, who believes that his deity will make me miserable, not just for a little while, but for all eternity - and thinks that's just great.

669 RadicalModerate  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:46:38am

re: #651 Kronocide

Hey GOP, take the Palin cure

OMG I'm in tears reading that one.

This would be a gift to the Democratic Party if she chooses to run, and somehow actually wins the nomination.

Given how badly she was absolutely obliterated by Joe Biden in the 2008 VP debate, as well as looking completely out of her element on the national stage during her VP run, even with the best of GOP handlers, she wouldn't carry much (if any) past her core constituency of voters.

670 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:46:53am

re: #667 GunstarGreen

So your version of what's best to do is really for Israeli citizens to continue dying while they try to develop better and better interception tech?

671 makeitstop  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:47:52am

re: #651 Kronocide

Hey GOP, take the Palin cure

OMG I'm in tears reading that one.

The whole time I was reading it, I was thinking 'Man, this guy is really stupid.'

Then I noticed the byline and realized it was written by a stupid woman. go figure.

672 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:49:16am

re: #667 GunstarGreen

That's all and good....but what's the alternative? Spend every available asset trying to defend from rocket attacks?

re: #669 RadicalModerate

She'd win the primary and get crushed in the general. Hopefully by Hillary since the GOP would lose that "see, we're running a woman!" position. Clinton would verbally cut Palin into tiny little pieces during any debate.

Sorry, double reply by accident.

673 Lidane  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:49:31am

re: #657 Kronocide

"Sarah Palin is the new Ronald Reagan: charming and affable and unwilling to back down if she's right. I can't see what's wrong with that."

They must have missed the part where Tina Fey's impression of Caribou Barbie turned Sarah Palin into a national joke, and where even rational people didn't want Palin anywhere near the nuke codes.

674 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:51:52am

re: #673 Lidane

They must have missed the part where Tina Fey's impression of Caribou Barbie turned Sarah Palin into a national joke, and where even rational people didn't want Palin anywhere near the nuke codes.

That or the movie "Game Change" which was supposedly pretty accurate in its depiction of her and the campaign (though I'm not sure how accurate Ed Harris was in portraying McCain since post-2008 election he's become an intolerable shit.)

675 Kragar  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:52:47am

re: #673 Lidane

"Sarah Palin is the new Ronald Reagan: charming and affable and unwilling to back down if she's right. I can't see what's wrong with that."

When has she ever been right?

676 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:53:09am

re: #632 Kragar

Robertson: 'Miserable' Atheists Trying to 'Steal' Christmas

Christians stole the season from someone else. Paybacks are a bitch.

677 Schadenfreude 'r' Us  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:53:10am

re: #641 lawhawk

And I've already done most of my holiday shopping. Still have to go to stores to get a few things, but the bulk is done.

Showoff. I'm tempted to downding you for that.

678 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:54:37am

Sarah Palin, Often wrong but NEVER in doubt..

679 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:55:09am

re: #677 Schadenfreude 'r' Us

Hannukah comes early this year.

680 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:55:15am

re: #599 What, me worry?

But it's good to know "some folks" would like Hamas' wishes to come true.

See ya'll later.

It's really, really disappointing to see you post something like this.

681 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:56:34am

re: #648 GunstarGreen

The people that say that "civilian deaths are inevitable in armed conflict", and therefor holding the wagers of war accountable for civilian casualties is "not a useful position".

To that kid, it most certainly is a "useful position".

They should be held accountable if the unintended but foreseeable civilian deaths are not in proportion to what the war is supposed to accomplish.

682 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:57:31am

re: #670 Obdicut

So your version of what's best to do is really for Israeli citizens to continue dying while they try to develop better and better interception tech?

It would be great if they could 'turn the other cheek' or what have you. But it doesn't seem like Hamas is a viable negotiating partner in this. They pretty much need to be forcibly removed at this point, and then a quick turnaround in terms of bringing aid and supplies to the Gazans.

683 Ghost of Tom Joad  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:58:39am

re: #675 Kragar

When has she ever been right?

She can never fail. She can only be failed. /

684 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 10:59:22am

re: #657 Kronocide

Read it, you'll be in tears.


Sarah Palin is the new Ronald Reagan: charming and affable and unwilling to back down if she's right. I can't see what's wrong with that.

What is wrong is that she isn't right. Just because the phantoms in her head tell her she is right doesn't mean it is true. She should talk to Ron's astrologer.

685 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 11:00:08am

re: #627 Ghost of Tom Joad

No idea what the deal is. Does everybody need to put a disclaimer before every post condemning Hamas (stating the obvious to the oblivious) or something?

Hatred for Palestinians must be shown with total and unequivocal dedication at all times, feeling badly about Palestinian casualties shows such a lack of right think that in reality you are probably actually a sympathizer to their cause.

Israel is never wrong, even allowing yourself the briefest hesitation in your thinking about that shows your lack of dedication to Israel. If you are not 100% with them in every word or action then you are obviously a Palestinian sympathizer and supporter of terrorism.

There are no shades of gray, there is no sense of scale, there are only absolutes!

/sigh...

686 GunstarGreen  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 11:04:37am

re: #670 Obdicut

So your version of what's best to do is really for Israeli citizens to continue dying while they try to develop better and better interception tech?

As opposed to Palistinian citizens continuing to die while they try to develop better and better accuracy tech?

Again, do not mistake this for a condemnation of Isreal as a people. As far as I am concerned, the whole mess is a tragedy of enormous scale, and the victims in all of this are the people on either side of the wall just trying to live their lives in peace. The unfortunate fact is that people are going to die either way.

An innocent Palestinian life has just as much value as an innocent Isreali life (both are priceless). Given a choice between a course of action that involves someone dying because a bomb was dropped, versus a course of action that involves someone dying because an interception system wasn't up to snuff, I feel that the latter would be preferable on the basis that nobody pulled a trigger and accepted the loss of innocent life as a necessary byproduct.

687 Dizzy  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 11:12:38am

I rarely comment here but I feel compelled to express how horrified I am at the Gilad Sharon and The Jerusalem Post. I am Jewish and exceedingly pro-Israel and find it inexcusable to advocate murder/genocide; yes it was a call for genocide.

We rightly chastise our enemies when they use the same language.
I'm so angry that I'm having a hard time collecting my thoughts into a cogent argument....

Sorry for venting....
Dizzy.

688 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 11:14:32am

re: #666 Obdicut

Methods other than bombing can produce zero civilian casualties? What are they?

So you really don't think that civilian deaths are inevitable? Can you explain how you would attack the rocket launching sites and groups without endangering citizens, please?

Are you trolling? Do you not know about Iron Dome?

Who's writing it off? That civilian casualties are inevitable is a fact. It's not a happy or pleasant fact, but it's a fact.

You're not arguing with me. You're arguing with a cartoon version of me. Plus the whole thing about "Maybe they could develop some sort of ground-based missile shield"-- are you just paying zero attention?

He wants them to use tiny bumblebee sized hunter/seeker drones that target individual DNA to track down the terrorists and vaporize them with a particle beam weapon. What? Sounds totally doable to me, of course I read an awful lot of science fiction in my spare time...

///

689 Schadenfreude 'r' Us  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 11:14:57am

re: #679 lawhawk

Hannukah comes early this year.

So it does. I didn't realize it was THAT early. (But it's still nearly three weeks away, so the showing off comment stands, just a little mitigated.)

690 lgffan  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 11:18:08am

re: #634 efuseakay

You are right. There are innocents in Gaza and they need to rise up and tell their "leaders" to knock this $hit off!

691 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 11:19:26am

re: #686 GunstarGreen

As opposed to Palistinian citizens continuing to die while they try to develop better and better accuracy tech?

No, not as opposed to. I'm not sure what you mean.

The unfortunate fact is that people are going to die either way.

Yep.

Given a choice between a course of action that involves someone dying because a bomb was dropped, versus a course of action that involves someone dying because an interception system wasn't up to snuff, I feel that the latter would be preferable on the basis that nobody pulled a trigger and accepted the loss of innocent life as a necessary byproduct.

So it's better to accept the loss of innocent life as a necessary byproduct of the inevitable failure of an interceptor program? Why?

I mean, in both cases, you have innocents dying as a necessary byproduct. So what have you gained?

You do unerstand perfect interception tech isn't possible, right? And even if it were, that Hamas isn't duty-bound to continue using rockets?

They used to use suicide bombers. Then the Israelis built a lot of walls and checkpoints (which, incidentally, harmed the innocent people in Gaza.) Then Hamas switched to rockets and mortars. If the Israelis develop countermeasures to that that are completely effective-- which, again, is not actually possible-- then Hamas will switch to something else.

There is no such thing as perfect defense. You cannot stop a determined killer. You can made it hard for them, you can stop it some of the time, but what you are doing is advocating accepting that innocents are going to die.

And yet that is what you're accusing me of doing and saying it's a terrible thing.

692 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 11:19:48am

re: #690 lgffan

You are right. There are innocents in Gaza and they need to rise up and tell their "leaders" to knock this $hit off!

When they do so, they get executed.

693 dragonath  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 11:22:05am

Hamas is, like, a half step above the Taliban in ideology. Hamas is worse than useless. What fucking pisses me off more than anything is the inference that people speaking up against some of the rhetoric of the campaign are moonbats or something. No, I don't like celebrating death. It's war. It sucks.

Not trying to sound naive, but there's got to be a way for Israel to reach the theoretical "innocents" we're talking about in Gaza. Unfortunately twitter feeds with fanciful graphic design and reciprocal rhetoric aren't really going to progress anything.

We should be strong supporters of Israel and all the progressive, modern things the country stands for. But not all criticism should be taken as an attack.

694 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 11:33:06am

re: #693 dragonath

To me, it's like trying to reach people who are inside a cult. It's really, really difficult. They're surrounded by anti-Israel rhetoric, by a distorted view of reality, they're lied to and cowed and through it all runs religious fanaticism. There is enormous amount of outside influence on the Palestinians. One of the biggest mistakes one can make is thinking this is Palestine vs. Israel. It's not. It's basically Iran + nearly the whole Arab world vs. Israel, with those nations using Palestinians as their proxy to harass Israel and keep their own politics stable.

695 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 11:38:17am

Israel is not even using one of its most effective weapons against the missile launches to try to minimize casualties. Where is the Israeli counter-battery artillery? Counter-battery radar and ballistic computers can backtrack a missile and determine its launch coordinates within seconds of it being fired and feed those coordinates to the Howitzers and self-propelled guns on the border of Gaza.

In past conflicts they have used this, but this time they are holding their fire simply to reduce civilian deaths. Sure artillery has become much more accurate but in a crowded urban environment like Gaza it is not accurate enough. An artillery accuracy of plus or minus 10 meters or so requires multiple shells to be fired to assure impact on the target, and would also do much more damage. That is why the IAF is using guided missiles almost exclusively and guided bombs for heavier targets like ammo bunkers.

There is only so much the Israelis can do with current technology to reduce the number of collateral deaths and injuries, they are doing the best they can. While showing remarkable restraint by keeping their artillery idle this time I might add.

696 cinesimon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 1:23:21pm

I find it odd that anyone is surprised by this.
Maybe that rather obvious Epistemic closure, which has affected even the most intelligent of liberals, who think Israel's problems are all the fault of lefty Europeans, the U.N and those pesky Arabs who claim to be human beings?
Look of course Hamas are a serious threat to the region. But their children aren't. Nor are those who voted them in. Blame the election of Hamas on Bush, whose naivete and refusal to listen to those who knew the region, put them in power.
Sharon is not an isolated person - nor his views. Much of the right share them, as do many on Israel's left.
But according to many, even many at LGF, the real problem is all those antisemites who(apparently falsely) claim to be friends and lovers of Israel, but anyone with sense knows that they hate Jews and that's why they are appalled at Israel's seemingly self destructive hard right swing and scarily Nazi-like attitudes to their Arab neighbors, to other Jews who don't consider Palestinians to be sub-human. ANYone - Jew, liberal, black or white is deemed an antisemite if they reveal their disgust at the all-pervasive neo-fascism rotting it's way through Israeli society. Lieberman may have a lot to answer for, but his enablers are the real problem. They can claim to disdain his message and the consequences of is policies, but anyone who stands against them and Israel is shouted down and all conversation shuttered - all they need do is use the A word.

I hope those who call me an antisemite because I criticize Israel for failing to live up to it's own claims and ideals, and for it's frightening hatred of those different to them - for it's easy justification of the killing of hundreds of children - will take a hard look at both Sharon and those who think like him, and themselves. It's they who enable this type of attitude.
Sharon s not an exception. That is huge problem for Israel.
But I suspect that the refusal to think critically for Israel's right(and left) and it's extreme right wing defenders in America & around the world, will mean that all will be done is a little cosmetics and then it'll be back to blaming their problems on anyone but them, and spitting all over the graves of those lost in the Holocaust by holding them up as a shield against any criticism whatsoever.

697 cinesimon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 1:25:18pm

Oh and I see once again that the children must deserve to die because their parents apparently voted for Hamas. This is seen as a human(let alone rational) reaction to a call for Genocide?

Oh - and this other bizarre excuse that the real behind civilian deaths is bomb technology, is either a deep seated ignorance of modern warfare tactics, or outright dishonesty.
I'm guess the latter, give everything else said by these same people.

It's pretty clear that if you feel the need to use such overt dishonesty as a way to explain away civilian deaths, you know that something is wrong. You don't want to face that, so of course you blame the tools.
How see through can you get, for goodness sake.

This cavalier attitude to human life is simply disgusting.

And surely by now the Israeli people ought to know that a repeat of Cast Lead is going to get them nowhere. Of course, that should have been obvious to anyone willing to use their brains long before Cast Lead.

698 cinesimon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 1:45:40pm

re: #694 Obdicut

That's projection if ever I saw it.

699 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 2:19:47pm

re: #698 cinesimon

That's projection if ever I saw it.

Please explain why. As it stands, all you did was assert something insulting. I'm happy to have a conversation, but I'll need a bit more effort from you.

700 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 2:26:41pm

re: #698 cinesimon

So Hamas isn't cultlike and doesn't lie its ass off? Because from where I sit not only are those things true, but also they are the source of the impetus to fire rockets at Israel.

Remember: If the rocket fire stopped then there would be no airstrikes. Hamas caused this, not Israel.

701 Buck  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 3:23:24pm

re: #697 cinesimon

Oh and I see once again that the children must deserve to die because their parents apparently voted for Hamas. This is seen as a human(let alone rational) reaction to a call for Genocide?

Oh and I see once again that the children deserve to die because their parents are Jewish and apparently choose to live in Israel. This is seen as a human (let alone rational) reaction to a difference in religion?

702 Rochi613  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 3:37:04pm

re: #539 Obdicut

Actually, Sharon is a nonentity in Israel.

703 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 4:00:13pm

re: #702 Rochi613

Actually, Sharon is a nonentity in Israel.

He's a major in the IDF reserves, and I don't know if you heard, but he just got an op-ed printed in one of Israel's major newspapers.

Why is it so hard to just condemn it without trying to trivialize it?

704 Buck  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 4:01:54pm

re: #695 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Firing Howitzers and self-propelled guns into civilian areas is too dangerous. Very expensive surgical strike guided missiles is the only way that can be used and minimize civilian casualties.

705 Rochi613  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 4:02:49pm

re: #555 Vicious Babushka

I don't think it means JPost approved of the article. They publish left wing columns regularly -- Uri Savir, Naomi Chazan. Most Israelis would not want to flatten Gaza, but Israelis have moved right in response to Palestinian behavior.

706 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 4:04:32pm

re: #696 cinesimon

It is probably pointless to reply to this horrendous mess of whiny platitudes and self-serving assertions with very little grounding in reality, but...

While I'm sure that you feel strongly about this you don't seem to have any actual facts to back those feelings up. I think it is sad really, I always do when someone with obvious intelligence allows the purely emotional pleas of others to twist their rational thought. You might want to start over again at the beginning and reassess the basic assumption you seem to have made about who is the aggressor and who is the victim here.

At the very least do some non-partisan research on the entire history of this conflict, not just the last ten years of it. Otherwise you never will understand how things have arrived at the situation both the Israelis and Palestinians find themselves in now.

707 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 4:06:04pm

re: #704 Buck

Firing Howitzers and self-propelled guns into civilian areas is too dangerous. Very expensive surgical strike guided missiles is the only way that can be used and minimize civilian casualties.

Uhh...isn't that exactly what I said?

seems to be an echo in here

708 Rochi613  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:05:03pm

re: #703 Obdicut

I certainly don't agree with Sharon. And all kinds of views are published in the Jerusalem Post. But the whole discussion began with Yikes! This is Ariel Sharon's son, and justI'm informing you that he carries absolutely no weight- not politically, not culturally, not even socially. He has no following. He is not a 'public figure' or a leader, not even on the radar. This piece will only add tohis insignificance.

709 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:14:45pm

re: #697 cinesimon

Oh and I see once again that the children must deserve to die because their parents apparently voted for Hamas. This is seen as a human(let alone rational) reaction to a call for Genocide?

Hmm...I don't recall anyone saying that they deserved to die, I believe the one comment you are referring to was more along the lines of it being the parents responsibility for supporting Hamas. You may not see the distinction but that doesn't mean that there isn't one. When you support and empower terrorists you also need to shoulder the blame for the violence that occurs because of this.

Oh - and this other bizarre excuse that the real behind civilian deaths is bomb technology, is either a deep seated ignorance of modern warfare tactics, or outright dishonesty.
I'm guess the latter, give everything else said by these same people.

What "modern warfare tactics" are you referring to? Invisible ninjas? Death beams from satellites? All you show with this comment is your own complete lack of any strategic or technical knowledge on this subject. Israel has done everything humanly and technologically possible to minimize civilian casualties while striking Hamas missile sites, munitions storage, communications facilities and command personnel.

It's pretty clear that if you feel the need to use such overt dishonesty as a way to explain away civilian deaths, you know that something is wrong. You don't want to face that, so of course you blame the tools.
How see through can you get, for goodness sake.

This cavalier attitude to human life is simply disgusting.

The only one I see being dishonest here is yourself, what is worse is that the primary person you seem to be lying to is yourself. How see through can you get for goodness sake? Making these conspiratorial assertions against everyone else doesn't even give you pause does it, we are all maliciously lying and only you possess the pure truth, right?

There is a difference between being cavalier about death during armed conflict, which is morbid, and the bleak acceptance of it, which is rational.

And surely by now the Israeli people ought to know that a repeat of Cast Lead is going to get them nowhere. Of course, that should have been obvious to anyone willing to use their brains long before Cast Lead.

Whether or not Israel will attempt some type of assault by ground forces is still very much open to question. The pre-positioning of troops on the border of Gaza may be purely for their psychological threat value in negotiating a cease fire with Hamas. Israel did learn from Cast Lead, they learned that going into Gaza with small strike forces to assault specific limited tactical objectives was a poor strategy.

The cohesion and training of the Hamas fighters was much better than expected, their numbers and their supply of armaments also exceeded expectations. Israel will not make the same mistake again if they determine that the use of ground forces is required. They know now that they would be going up against a fairly well trained and equipped force of about 15,000 and will be prepared for that.

Let us all hope (and pray if your the type) that such battle is unnecessary and another solution is found. The loss of life on both sides would be very grim and only serve to deepen the frustration, anger and animus between two peoples who must somehow one day live in peace.

710 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:32:33pm

re: #708 Rochi613

I certainly don't agree with Sharon. And all kinds of views are published in the Jerusalem Post. But the whole discussion began with Yikes! This is Ariel Sharon's son, and justI'm informing you that he carries absolutely no weight- not politically, not culturally, not even socially. He has no following. He is not a 'public figure' or a leader, not even on the radar. This piece will only add tohis insignificance.

I think it'll raise his stock significantly with the far-right whackjobs that Bibi has allied with recently. Don't you?

As far as being insignificant, he has a best-selling biography of his father, here:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

If he's so insignificant, why does he have a column in the Jpost?

He's also a major in the IDF reserves, as I've pointed out a few times.

711 Rochi613  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 5:34:03am

re: #710 Obdicut

Sorry it took so long to reply. It was 3 am. here and I had alot of trouble with the site

Sharon got his column in 1) because of his name and 2) because Israel has a tradition of letting tragic figures - e.g.,horim shekulim, parents who lost a child in one of Israel's wars, to 'rant' a little without censorship or 'correction' because we know we can't put ourselves in their place. Sharon is in that category: we understand his views as excessive, but the man's father is in a coma (and the Sharon sons spend alot of time with him) and that he has rage at the devastation of his father's disengagement policies, etc.. So he got to write a column. He also appeared for 5 minutes on I don't recall which TV station (3 Israeli stations are doing 18/7 coverage of the war- an infinity of talking heads noisily discussing all kinds of "what ifs" in between tense reports of rocket barrages). Nobody agreed with Sharon and he hasn't been seen since. Israel is such a tiny place, it really is kind of like a family, where sometimes relatives with wounds are allowed a little leeway. Genocide -- in any definition -- is not on anyone's mind here. We are not a bloodthirsty people. But anyone who threatens the family's boundaries and safety - terrorizes it's home - will suffer the consequences. Wouldn't you protect your home and family? And if that terrorist put his child (or, more likely, another's child) in harm's way in order to motivate the world against the family, that child's blood is on his hands. The ethics of war are constantly discussed here, within the army and in society- a tradition that goes back to Biblical times and texts, where scrupulous behavior in times of war are dealt with. "Purity when bearing arms" is what's its called in the IDF. The changes from Cast Lead to this military campaign is enormous because Israel wants to minimize civilian casualties (it's own civilians and Palestinian civilians) and invests in huge scientic and military projects to lower the human cost of war.

Gotta go work again. Stimulating discussion, all. The search for clarity and right choices is a holy one.


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