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Power Line’s Hinderaker: Schools Should Be More Like Biker Bars

“No one tries to shoot up a biker bar”
Wingnuts • Views: 31,057

Over at Power Line, John Hinderaker has posted his ideas for how America should best address the problems presented by horrific crimes like the Newtown school shootings: The Sandy Hook Murders: What to Do? | Power Line.

Hinderaker’s keen legal mind zeroes in on a certain problematic Amendment to the US Constitution. No, not the Second Amendment, silly … the First!

I think the answer, for most such murderers anyway, is that they want to go out in a blaze of notoriety. Typically people who have made little impression on the world in life, they want to become famous in death. Shooting themselves won’t achieve that goal, but shooting lots of others will. I think they inspire one another: the Aurora movie theater killer probably helped to motivate the Oregon mall murderer, and the Oregon mall murderer probably helped to motivate the Sandy Hook killer.

If this is true’and I think it represents common sense’then one practical response to the school/theater/mall murderers presents itself: we could ban all news coverage of mass shooting incidents. If newspapers, magazines, web sites and above all television and radio stations were prohibited from making any reference to mass shooting crimes, then the goal that these criminals seek — fame; in effect, immortality — would not be achieved. It is reasonable to expect that mass shootings would decline as a result. In a less restrictive version of the same approach, we could allow news outlets to cover such crimes, but prohibit them from mentioning the name of the killer or displaying his image. This, too, might reduce the number of mass murders.

The only flaw in my proposal is that it would be unconstitutional.

Well, don’t let that stop you.

Hinderaker is savvy enough to realize this isn’t going to happen in America, ever, so his next best right wing solution (since those pesky constitutional amendments are off limits), can be summed up in two words: MOAR GUNZ!

Within the realm of constitutional options, the most practical remedy I can think of would be to require that a certain number of teachers or administrators in each school be trained in the use of firearms and armed at all times. That would probably deter most school shooters. It is curious, but true, that even those killers who do not intend to survive their crimes never seem to open fire in the presence of another armed person. No one tries to shoot up a biker bar.

Yes, we are now being treated to the spectacle of a right wing blogger arguing that America’s elementary schools should be more like biker bars. Because, as we all know, nobody ever tries to shoot up a biker bar.

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620 comments

1 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:17:19pm

He ends the piece with that photo of the Israeli teacher with a rifle. Which does not mean what he thinks it means.

Comprehension FAIL

2 Cap'n Magic  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:20:30pm

What do you honestly expect from a whiteshoes attorney? The riff-raff are to be ignored as much as possible until such time you actually have to deal with them-and you deal with it quickly and as much under the radar as possible.

3 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:20:36pm

Forgive my language but, that is fucking retarded.

4 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:22:36pm

The President is going to Newtown on Sunday. [Link: news.yahoo.com...]

5 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:24:13pm

I got one!
Check this.
Terrorists seek to terrorize, correct?
Well, and call me crazy, how about banning all reporting on terrorists attacks???
No reporting, no terrorizing!
Brilliant, right?!

6 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:24:14pm

Wow. What a stunningly insane conclusion he seems to have arrived at.

7 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:24:26pm
Within the realm of constitutional options, the most practical remedy I can think of would be to require that a certain number of teachers or administrators in each school be trained in the use of firearms and armed at all times.

I guess choosing not to post anything when he had no ideas wasn't an option.

8 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:25:45pm

Drumroll please...

Derp.

[Rimshot]

9 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:26:20pm

re: #5 Varek Raith

No reporting, no terrorizing!
Brilliant, right?!

So put in your earplugs,
Put on your eyeshades,
You know where to put the cork!

10 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:26:58pm

I would have enjoyed school much more if it was like a biker bar. Maybe he's on to something here. Let's not dismiss it too fast.

11 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:27:15pm

Know who shoots up biker bars? Bikers.

Fuckin' derp.

12 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:29:18pm

Otherwise.

2 shot in Camden biker-bar bust-up

Just one. Sorry John but people shoot up biker bars all the time. Oh look here's another Deputy injured, gunman killed in biker bar shooting.

13 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:29:51pm

OK, I'll say it...people like Hinderaker, Fischer, and Huckabee are out of their fucking minds.

People like that, just like the shooters, shouldn't have a place in polite society.

14 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:30:32pm
No one tries to shoot up a biker bar

Google search for Biker Bar Shootout.

15 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:31:03pm
16 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:32:40pm

I am totally expecting the wingnut derposphere to come up with a new conspiracy that

President Obama personally planned and arranged this massacre in order to take away rrr gunz!1!ty

17 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:32:48pm

I like this logic style though.

We should put meth labs in schools. Nobody fucks with meth dealers. And bonus Walter White science-learning.

18 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:33:09pm

re: #15 Kragar

I guarantee, John Hinderaker has never been anywhere near a biker bar.

19 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:33:13pm

re: #16 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I am totally expecting the wingnut derposphere to come up with a new conspiracy that

Already out there.

20 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:33:16pm

re: #16 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

They already have.

21 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:33:43pm

re: #20 Dr Lizardo

They already have.

Well, that didn't take long at all!

22 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:35:09pm

Except for those incidents easily uncovered on the first page of a google search for "Biker Bar Shooting", no one has ever started a gun fight in a biker bar.
/

23 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:36:19pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

I guarantee, John Hinderaker has never been anywhere near a biker bar.

Depends on what kind of biker you're talking about.

24 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:36:39pm

re: #21 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Actually, it was within minutes of the news hitting.

Well, to be fair, at first it was

A MUZLIM JIHADI KONSPIRACY!!11!

but after they ruled that out (for the most part), then the false flag meme started. It took about an hour or so. Maybe 45 minutes.

25 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:39:37pm

Why do I have an image of PeeWee Herman... Tequila!

26 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:39:39pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

I guarantee, John Hinderaker has never been anywhere near a biker bar.

Picture Richard Benjamin (as a low-rent lawyer to Cloris Leachman's character) in Scavenger Hunt, going up against, of all people, Meat Loaf.

In a biker bar.

That's how I see Hinderaker right now.

27 darthstar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:40:20pm

re: #10 Charles Johnson

I would have enjoyed school much more if it was like a biker bar. Maybe he's on to something here. Let's not dismiss it too fast.

I went to Catholic school. Sister Margaret Mitchell would have sent waves of fear through a bunch of bikers.

28 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:40:22pm

re: #10 Charles Johnson

I would have enjoyed school much more if it was like a biker bar. Maybe he's on to something here. Let's not dismiss it too fast.

Hey, between the spare changers, the dealers, and the rough housing my lunches were like biker bars.

////
There's a big freaking flaw in Hinderaker's theory. The monsters fully intend to die when they do this, so whether it's suicide by armed teacher or suicide by cop they won't be deterred, they'll probably just armor up and weapon up better. Hinderaker's an ass.

29 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:40:40pm

re: #26 TedStriker

Picture Richard Benjamin (as a low-rent lawyer to Cloris Leachman's character) in Scavenger Hunt, going up against of all people, Meat Loaf

No I won't do that. Oh no, I won't do that.

30 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:40:42pm

re: #26 TedStriker

Picture Richard Benjamin (as a low-rent lawyer to Cloris Leachman's character) in Scavenger Hunt, going up against of all people, Meat Loaf

I'll do anything for America, but I won't DERP that.

31 philosophus invidius  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:41:02pm

As if no teacher has ever gone berserk.

32 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:41:06pm

One of my favorite Norman Rockwell paintings:

Teacher With Concealed AK-47

33 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:41:13pm

Every teacher I know would quit before being required to carry a gun at school.

34 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:42:16pm

re: #33 Velvet Elvis

Voucher time!

35 Interesting Times  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:43:32pm

re: #14 goddamnedfrank

In a prior thread, you posted a link to this story:

2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings

While on the surface, it appears to be a vindication of the "if they were armed, they could have defended themselves" line of thinking, there's one detail I think bears mentioning:

On Sunday, December 9, 2007, at about 1 p.m. Murray, armed with a semi-automatic rifle and two pistols, entered the foyer of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs and fatally shot two and wounded three others before himself being shot and wounded by Jeanne Assam, a former sworn Minneapolis police officer and a church member acting as security. Murray then took his own life.

This wasn't some macho "yee-haw" civilian wannabe-cop doing the defensive shooting, but an actual ex-law enforcement officer with (one presumes) the necessary training for using firearms in a situation such as this. Ergo, I don't think this case can serve as automatic justification for CCA and "arm all the things!" arguments (not that you made those, but you can be certain others will, all the while waving this case in the air like their team colors)

36 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:43:59pm

I'd like to make a motion: I move that "Nobody shoots up a biker bar." be designated the Official Brain-Dead Right-Wing Meme for December 2012, replacing long-running December meme "War on Christmas". Any seconds?

37 freetoken  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:44:44pm

The religiously delirious rants of Fischer, Huckabee and the like, or the pure power machinations of the pundits like Hinderaker, make it all the more clear how divided our culture has become, between those who refuse to give up their outdated worldviews and those of us who have decided to live in the modern world and who want to move forward.

That so much of the reactionary right now is clinging to conspiracy mongers ought to not surprise us, as they have to escape reality to avoid confronting the loss of their worldview, an old way that attempted to comfort the existential crisis all humans face (i.e., death.)

The "Sandy Hook killer" is seen by most people as being abhorrent because his actions are unimaginable to most of us. And well we should see him as something to reject in disgust - if you don't then IMO something is very wrong with you.

When the religious/reactionary right try to blame the actions of the killer of the lack of God/guns what they are showing is their own fears of the very real disproof/loss of their way of looking at the world.

That today we have tools (in psychiatry/psychology/criminology) of addressing anti-social behavior that no longer depend upon a religious institution or the ritual training from childhood of acceptable (to the religious institution) modes of thinking scares the reactionary right.

This is because in the old world view the teachings/behavorial training accomplished not one but two goals: (1) acceptable boundaries of social behavior that is enforced (theoretically, ultimately) by a "higher judge", and (2) a purported solution to the existential problem.

Modernity can do quite well without the old worldview now, in addressing problem number (1), that of creating functioning society.

However, Modernity also shows us that there is no known solution to issue (2), the existential problem - death. All life ends, someday.

I can't promise that simply by embracing modern mental health practices, making sure the entire society has access to such practices, that reducing access to guns and licensing their use, and so on, will eliminate the existence of mass murderers. But no one can guarantee that anyway, by any means short of making humans robots. I say we ought to try harder at making our society more "civilized" (i.e., less violent) and be willing to spend more our wealth on making people healthy.

So, why is our society's politics so structured as to make addressing these issues so difficult?

It has been noted by many that the most religious nation in the developed western world - the US - is also the nation with extremely high violent crime rates and murder rates, especially by guns, and that other nations that are less religious are also less violent.

Funny that.

As a society we have to let go of the old worldview, and that is very difficult indeed because people are desperate for comfort given their existential predicament.

On a personal note, last week I had a close relative die (actually, a half-sister.) We had been estranged most of my life - last time I even saw her was 34 years ago - so the distance softened the blow. Yet she died way too young, in part because she did not get the care she ought to have had (and in her case it had to do with her husband's family, not necessarily the lack of money.) Life is short, too short. This is the problem that dwells in each of our minds, if only in the subconscious. It is (in part) what drives humans to invent religion. We don't want to part with our old solutions to this problem, even when they prove to fail us.

We are creatures of habit.

38 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:45:08pm

If the answer is more guns, what happens to the people too poor to afford a personal arsenal? According to the social contract theory of government, it is the responsibility of government to provide protection for its citizens. It seems clear, then, that if more guns is the answer, social programs should be set up to provide guns to the needy, many of whom are going to be racial minorities.

Let's see how the NRA likes that.

39 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:45:43pm

re: #16 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I am totally expecting the wingnut derposphere to come up with a new conspiracy that

They were saying that within the first hour after the shooting, I posted a few of the comments here. :(

The freepers were wondering how the liberals manage to get people to go on these "suicide false flag missions" designed to weaken the 2nd Amendment.

40 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:46:45pm

re: #37 freetoken

Thou shalt not kill.

41 philosophus invidius  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:47:35pm

re: #38 Velvet Elvis

Poor urban areas are filled with guns. That's why we need gun rights for the rest of us.
/#NRA

42 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:48:01pm

re: #40 Gus

Thou shalt not kill murder.

FTFY...

43 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:48:26pm

re: #40 Gus

Thou shalt not kill.

I'm sure there's a workaround for that.

44 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:49:20pm

re: #38 Velvet Elvis

If the answer is more guns, what happens to the people too poor to afford a personal arsenal? According to the social contract theory of government, it is the responsibility of government to provide protection for its citizen. It seems clear, then, that if more guns is the answer, social programs should be set up to provide guns to the needy, many of whom are going to be racial minorities.

Let's see how the NRA likes that.

Worked in a gun store for a time, back in college and the owner once responded when I complained about some really cheesy pistols he'd put up for sale: " some people can't afford any better and still want to protect themselves."

45 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:49:32pm

I need more sex, OK? Before I die I wanna taste everyone in the world.
Angelina Jolie

46 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:50:40pm

re: #44 Capitalist Tool

Worked in a gun store for a time, back in college and the owner once responded when I complained about some really cheesy pistols he'd put up for sale: " some people can't afford any better and still want to protect themselves."

The proverbial "Saturday night specials".

47 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:51:34pm

re: #42 TedStriker

FTFY...

I grew up with thou shalt not kill.

48 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:51:53pm

re: #46 TedStriker

The proverbial "Saturday night specials".

Yeppers

49 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:53:11pm

re: #47 Gus

I grew up with thou shalt not kill.

As did I, but I've seen that "thou shalt not murder" is supposedly a more accurate translation (and, frankly, it makes more sense).

50 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:54:16pm

re: #46 TedStriker

The proverbial "Saturday night specials".

re: #48 Capitalist Tool

Yeppers

51 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:55:32pm

I just read the comments at power line.
So many agree teachers need to have guns in the classroom. What about Catholic schools? Will those nuns carry? You know they could carry a bazooka under their Habits.
/

52 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:57:07pm

re: #49 TedStriker

As did I, but I've seen that "thou shalt not murder" is supposedly a more accurate translation (and, frankly, it makes more sense).

I like thou shalt not kill.

53 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:57:39pm

Yeah! Let's take away all health care benefits, pensions, and any other job security from teachers, then arm them to the teeth!

What could possibly go wrong?

54 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:58:05pm

Nobody shoots up a biker bar. Nope. Not ever. Uh uh.
Image: BarShoot1.jpg

55 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:58:43pm

Twelve facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States

If roads were collapsing all across the United States, killing dozens of drivers, we would surely see that as a moment to talk about what we could do to keep roads from collapsing. If terrorists were detonating bombs in port after port, you can be sure Congress would be working to upgrade the nation’s security measures. If a plague was ripping through communities, public-health officials would be working feverishly to contain it.

Only with gun violence do we respond to repeated tragedies by saying that mourning is acceptable but discussing how to prevent more tragedies is not. “Too soon,” howl supporters of loose gun laws. But as others have observed, talking about how to stop mass shootings in the aftermath of a string of mass shootings isn’t “too soon.” It’s much too late.

56 Interesting Times  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:58:50pm

It's hilarious how Walker-worshipping wingnuts who piss all over teachers for being OMG-union-thug-parasites suddenly want them packing heat at all times.

Cognitive dissonance and delerium-depths of derp, how do they fucking work?

57 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:00:06pm

re: #52 Gus

I like thou shalt not kill.

OK.

58 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:00:11pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

Yeah! Let's take away all health care benefits, pensions, and any other job security from teachers, then arm them to the teeth!

What could possibly go wrong?

We want require them to arm themselves and train themselves to handle armed intruders, but do so while continuing to squeeze as much money out of education budgets as possible.

Repeat after me, children: "Attica! Attica! Attica!"

59 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:00:36pm

Now that they've been stripped of union protection, they can probably be forced to carry guns.

60 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:02:27pm

re: #47 Gus

I grew up with thou shalt not kill.

אל תרצח=Thou shalt not murder.

61 Ming  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:02:30pm

There's something about the right-wing appetite for guns that reminds me of their appetite for noise, yelling about everything, outraged about everything, always on the barricades. All this NOISE has one thing in common: it drowns out nuance, thoughtfulness, adult emotion as our President displayed in the aftermath of the shootings, compromise, understanding. It drowns out, in general, grown-up things.

It makes me suspect that the last thing many on the right wing want is for our country to make progress as adults. They prefer a comic-book America, where George W. Bush says he wants bin Laden "dead or alive", and the kinfolk cheer. You betch'a! We love our tough Texas talk! No liberal "nuance" spoken here! Drown out reality with noise, explosions, torture, flying bullets, exploding bombs. Arm up, and above all, keep it loud and keep it proud.

62 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:03:18pm

re: #39 watching you tiny alien kittens are

They were saying that within the first hour after the shooting, I posted a few of the comments here. :(

The freepers were wondering how the liberals manage to get people to go on these "suicide false flag missions" designed to weaken the 2nd Amendment.

The Alex Jones 666th Black Helicopter Brigade.

63 gwangung  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:03:31pm

Yeah, make the teachers pack heat, and make 'em learn to use it effectively and make 'em know exactly when the right time to use it for the best effect.

Note that we're then requiring teachers to have a skill set so staggeringly high (higher than the police) that nothing less than a mid six figure salary would make sense. For ALL of our teachers.

64 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:05:29pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

Yeah! Let's take away all health care benefits, pensions, and any other job security from teachers, then arm them to the teeth!

What could possibly go wrong?

The thinking on all this is piss-puddle shallow. They haven't even weighed how this plan contradicts all their other prejudices and shady worldview assumptions.

At some point it will click that they're talking about arming (1) union "thugs" (2) that are women (3) that are in a profession that leans liberal politically (4) many of whom aren't white. At which point this fantasy will shrivel.

And by the same "not thinking it through" token, the same folks will shit themselves when they realize that they aren't exempt from suspicion or rigorous security examination in newly fortified schools.

65 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:06:11pm

Any idea of what the insurance burden to the teachers and school districts would be if they had to arm them all?

But don't raise taxes, no matter what.

66 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:06:12pm

Fischer, Coulter and all the rest of these MOAR GUNZ fans never stop to consider, for example, the gunman taking a human shield, or even more massive casualties from crossfire.

These kind of scenarios are nightmares for professional HRT.

67 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:07:44pm

re: #63 gwangung

Yeah, make the teachers pack heat, and make 'em learn to use it effectively and make 'em know exactly when the right time to use it for the best effect.

Note that we're then requiring teachers to have a skill set so staggeringly high (higher than the police) that nothing less than a mid six figure salary would make sense. For ALL of our teachers.

"We want you not only to be an excellent teacher who can inspire students to exceed expectations and meet whatever requirements we set, but also be ready at a moment's notice to become quasi-guards who will selflessly lay down your lives to take out an armed intruder to protect your students. At the same time, we'll be cutting your pay, making you work more hours, and you can forget about than pension and health benefits. So, still want the job?"

68 Destro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:08:00pm

re: #37 freetoken

Thank you for your great observation/comments.

69 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:08:13pm

re: #60 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

לא תרצח=Thou shalt not murder

Yeah.

70 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:08:14pm

The "Twitchy Staff" is peeved at David Frum for making this point:

71 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:09:07pm

re: #70 jaunte

The "Twitchy Staff" is peeved at David Frum for making this point:

[Embedded content]

They're mad because he's right.

72 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:10:43pm

re: #65 Kragar

Any idea of what the insurance burden to the teachers and school districts would be if they had to arm them all?

But don't raise taxes, no matter what.

The liability alone on so many people walking around on a daily basis while packing heat will obliterate much of the annual budget.

73 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:12:53pm

re: #66 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Fischer, Coulter and all the rest of these MOAR GUNZ fans never stop to consider, for example, the gunman taking a human shield, or even more massive casualties from crossfire.

These kind of scenarios are nightmares for professional HRT.

I struggle trying to imagine the security plan for armed teachers versus gunman. Do they abandon their kids? Split between leading kids out and hunting down the gunman? There's even mechanical issues like where can you safely exchange fire...particularly if the walls don't provide a back stop for bullets.

I mean, it's really depressing how empty "give 'em guns" is when you're talking about a very complicated security situation.

74 gwangung  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:13:14pm

re: #66 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Fischer, Coulter and all the rest of these MOAR GUNZ fans never stop to consider, for example, the gunman taking a human shield, or even more massive casualties from crossfire.

These kind of scenarios are nightmares for professional HRT.

If I recall, professionals make it their first duty to clear the area of civilians. Why are yoyos like Fischer yammering on, advising stuff the pros would refuse to do?

75 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:13:29pm

re: #72 Targetpractice

The liability alone on so many people walking around on a daily basis while packing heat will obliterate much of the annual budget.

Obviously the answer would be vouchers and more homeschooling.

76 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:13:49pm

re: #70 jaunte

The "Twitchy Staff" is peeved at David Frum for making this point:

[Embedded content]

Racist Robin tweets what?

77 Destro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:13:54pm

re: #72 Targetpractice

The liability alone on so many people walking around on a daily basis while packing heat will obliterate much of the annual budget.

I did like the idea of having the schools hire retired (and armed) police officers at each school - don't know where or who said it but it was on radio talk shows so I assume a right wing talk show but it escaped the right winger that such a move requires raising taxes to hire such ex-cops.

78 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:14:24pm

re: #74 gwangung

If I recall, professionals make it their first duty to clear the area of civilians. Why are yoyos like Fischer yammering on, advising stuff the pros would refuse to do?

Because they're fucking idiots who really don't give a shit about people's lives as long as their agenda gets advanced?

79 gwangung  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:15:04pm

re: #73 The Ghost of a Flea

I struggle trying to imagine the security plan for armed teachers versus gunman. Do they abandon their kids? Split between leading kids out and hunting down the gunman? There's even mechanical issues like where can you safely exchange fire...particularly if the walls don't provide a back stop for bullets.

I mean, it's really depressing how empty "give 'em guns" is when you're talking about a very complicated security situation.

The police know what to do because they game it out. Know all the possible responses and guard against that. And even then they can make mistakes. That cost lives.

You're an idiot to expect that it would go any better with people where that was a secondary or tertiary function.

80 gwangung  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:16:17pm

re: #78 Kragar

Because they're fucking idiots who really don't give a shit about people's lives as long as their agenda gets advanced?

I was just making a rhetorical question, after all.

THough "fucking idiots" is really going easy on them....

81 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:16:42pm

Dad: The teacher was really upset with our class today..
Why? Why did you guys do?
We were acting up after recess..
What did she do?
Took out her big gun and placed it on the desk
What did she say?
Nothing..She just sat there staring at us tapping her fingers on the desk.
//

82 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:17:56pm

Should schools have more full time security, armed or otherwise?

Yes, because of the lax controls we have over guns and systemic failures across the country to provide adequate mental care, we pretty much need to have those assets available.

Should every teacher be armed?

That is just a fucking stupid solution.

83 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:18:02pm

re: #81 A Man for all Seasons

Dad: The teacher was really upset with our class today..
Why? Why did you guys do?
We were acting up after recess..
What did she do?
Took out her big gun and placed it on the desk
What did she say?
Nothing..She just sat there staring at us tapping her fingers on the desk.
//

Timmy, leave the gun...take the cannoli.

///

84 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:18:29pm

Sorry to repeat this from the last thread, but I should note I went to OU in Norman.

re: #111 ProMayaLiberal

A number of my Muslims Friends have FB pics from doing that.

Those friends are women. I like strong willed women. One that can over-power me in intensity.

85 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:22:02pm

The conservative movement has turned into a cartoon.

86 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:22:33pm

re: #85 Gus

Wil E. Coyote?

87 gwangung  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:22:41pm

re: #82 Kragar

Should schools have more full time security, armed or otherwise?

Yes, because of the lax controls we have over guns and systemic failures across the country to provide adequate mental care, we pretty much need to have those assets available.

THough, to be clear, I think that just mitigates any such incidents, not prevent them. Maybe.

88 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:23:18pm

re: #86 ProMayaLiberal

Wil E. Coyote?

Song of the South.

89 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:24:05pm

re: #88 The Ghost of a Flea

Song of the South.

I wish I was in the land of cotton...

//

90 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:25:00pm

Red State is my laughing place!

91 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:25:06pm

re: #10 Charles Johnson

I would have enjoyed school much more if it was like a biker bar. Maybe he's on to something here. Let's not dismiss it too fast.

Hire bikers as teachers? That could turn out really well.

92 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:25:41pm

re: #88 The Ghost of a Flea

Well, I was going more for the stupid angle, not the nasty angle.

93 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:26:48pm
94 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:28:05pm

re: #66 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Fischer, Coulter and all the rest of these MOAR GUNZ fans never stop to consider, for example, the gunman taking a human shield, or even more massive casualties from crossfire.

These kind of scenarios are nightmares for professional HRT.

What about a student overpowering/blindsiding a teacher and taking their weapon to use on others? All your doing is putting a readily available weapon within spur of the moment arms reach of someone having an violent outburst.

But the wingnut pundits are not in the least serious about arming teachers anyway, they are just using it to derail the conversation about guns, very effectively too. :(

95 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:28:33pm

re: #93 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

[Embedded content]

If something were to happen to the Westboro gang, like say they were all struck by lightning or something, and only one was left alive, that one would totally picket the others' funerals.

96 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:29:28pm

re: #82 Kragar

Should schools have more full time security, armed or otherwise?

Yes, because of the lax controls we have over guns and systemic failures across the country to provide adequate mental care, we pretty much need to have those assets available.

Should every teacher be armed?

That is just a fucking stupid solution.

Had one argue that you can't have armed guards, because a gunman would know who to target first. So, instead, have teachers and faculty trained in secret at facilities separated from both the state and local governments, so as to prevent them any potential gunmen from knowing who is armed and who isn't. Compared it to how we have air marshals who operate in secret.

97 Interesting Times  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:29:31pm
98 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:29:53pm

re: #95 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

I hope this somehow ends up as their Waterloo.

99 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:30:20pm

OT: The reports I've been hearing about the Hobbit movie are starting to freak me out. Scatological jokes? Giant bunny sleds? What th'?!

100 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:30:28pm

re: #95 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

If something were to happen to the Westboro gang, like say they were all struck by lightning or something, and only one was left alive, that one would totally picket the others' funerals.

God hates figs!
;)

101 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:30:54pm

re: #99 dragonath

OT: The reports I've been hearing about the Hobbit movie are starting to freak me out. Scatological jokes? Giant bunny sleds? What th'?!

Don't remember the first, but the second, yeah, it's there.

102 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:32:05pm

re: #101 Targetpractice

They had Dwarf-Tossing in the Two Towers. Not a big deal.

103 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:33:51pm

re: #98 ProMayaLiberal

I hope this somehow ends up as their Waterloo.

God hates Figs. The rest of the GOP pushes the same message, just watered down, but their compasses all point in the same direction.

104 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:34:02pm

My first follow back on Twitter was Curious Lurker. Then NASA Goddard and Ames Research followed by Dryden.

105 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:35:05pm

re: #70 jaunte

Just to give him some encouragement...

106 Interesting Times  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:35:49pm

Parody account. Though I certainly wouldn't blame you for not being able to tell the difference.

107 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:36:19pm

re: #102 ProMayaLiberal

Yeah, but Gimli was a dwarf.

BUNNY SLEDS

I didn't know Radagast was conducting controlled breeding experiments in imitation of Saruman. Except all he could find were bunnies.

108 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:36:24pm

re: #104 Gus

My first follow back on Twitter was Curious Lurker. Then NASA Goddard and Ames Research followed by Dryden.

Conspiracy!

109 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:36:39pm

re: #106 Interesting Times

[Embedded content]

Parody account. Though I certainly wouldn't blame you for not being able to tell the difference.

Of course.

110 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:37:12pm

re: #108 Varek Raith

Conspiracy!

Terrain. Pull up. Terrain. Pull up.

111 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:38:20pm

Teachers are academics and should never be expected to pack heat. Imagine how many great teachers would never step foot into the profession if there was some kind of arm requirement.

112 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:39:41pm

re: #107 dragonath

Hey, he was an animal guy, from what I recall from reading in the past.

We don't know how he used animals in the books, offscreen. :P

113 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:40:02pm

re: #111 Amory Blaine

Go Go Gadget!

114 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:41:47pm

re: #5 Varek Raith

I got one!
Check this.
Terrorists seek to terrorize, correct?
Well, and call me crazy, how about banning all reporting on terrorists attacks???
No reporting, no terrorizing!
Brilliant, right?!

That reminds me of this book.

In it the book the media declared war on terrorists. The media never gave anything except derisory coverage. They weren't even called terrorists any more. They were called 'charlies' because studies had shown that 'Charley' is a name most associated with losers in the public's mind.

It pretty much worked too. Nobody wanted to be considered a 'Charley' and most of the support for terrorist organizations dried up and no one wanted to join.

I believe that reporting on mass murderers the same way would help. I think a lot of them do it so that they won't be nobodies any more. If we mocked them people thinking of doing such a thing would think again. Worse than nobody is being an object of derision.

115 danarchy  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:42:02pm

re: #99 dragonath

OT: The reports I've been hearing about the Hobbit movie are starting to freak me out. Scatological jokes? Giant bunny sleds? What th'?!

Saw it yesterday. It is clearly targeted at a younger audience than LOTR, but then the source material was also meant for a younger audience.

116 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:42:29pm

re: #111 Amory Blaine

Teachers are academics and should never be expected to pack heat. Imagine how many great teachers would never step foot into the profession if there was some kind of arm requirement.

"I love children and just want to teach 5 and 6 year olds how to read."
"Sorry, but unless you can field strip a .45, you're of no use to us."

117 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:43:31pm

re: #112 ProMayaLiberal

Hey, he was an animal guy, from what I recall from reading in the past.

We don't know how he used animals in the books, offscreen. :P

Well, Radagast had a chain of fried rabbit and ortolan franchises. He also invented the turducken, though his version was more edible eldritch abomination than a culinary novelty.

118 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:43:36pm
119 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:44:25pm

re: #113 dragonath

Go Go Gadget!

"Not this time, Inspector." [activates DEMP device]

"Sorry about the ruining of your gadgets, but a group of defense contractors wants to replace you with a team of drones. 50% more capability, and Congress is going to budget twice as much money. So sorry, but it turns out ruining your life is good for business and good for business is what Republicans like me are all about."

///

120 Tigger2005  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:46:49pm

re: #37 freetoken

The religiously delirious rants of Fischer, Huckabee and the like, or the pure power machinations of the pundits like Hinderaker, make it all the more clear how divided our culture has become, between those who refuse to give up their outdated worldviews

I'm not sure if you can even call many of their views "outdated" It's more like they've been received from the Elder Gods sleeping and dreaming in their lairs under the Earth and seas. I mean, I'm 45 and never in my life until maybe 3 years ago did I hear anyone make these bizarre claims about the female body being able to "shut down" in the event of rape. Was this a widespread view in the male-dominated society of the past? I realize they did have a lot of strange beliefs about women in the past, but that was a new one to me.

121 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:47:12pm

A few years back, Tom Robb Smith wrote a novel called "Child 44," about a serial killer in 1950's Soviet Russia.

It was what could be described as a good read, although certainly written from a conservative viewpoint -- there were no honorable Soviets; even the "hero" was a willing participant in the frequent purges of the Stalin era. (The book, as I recall, was dedicated to Anne Applebaum -- so, yeah, "conservative viewpoint.")

In the book, the Soviets authorities were portrayed as being completely blinded by ideology -- there was no crime in the Soviet Union: surely, such a being could only exist in the decadent West.

There's no difference between what Hinderaker is offering here and what the Soviets of "Child 44" did -- if you cover up the problem and pretend it doesn't exist, then the problem doesn't exist.

122 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:48:56pm
123 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:52:05pm

re: #122 Gus

Man I miss that voice. I wanted to read his obituaries of Kim Jong Il and Muammar Khadaffi. He would certainly have had something to say about Newton.

124 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:52:19pm

I wanted to post this on FB with the story someone linked to about the pay of one of the victims.

Look at the profile for Lauren Rousseau. Paid $75 Dollars a day. How is that damn fair. People want to know why we are lagging in education, look at that. And yet, people are willing to sell people like her up the line so the top 1% can get another $500k, and skimp out of Mental Health Care funding, which causes this sort of tragedy. We value Psychopathic CEOs over teachers and those in need of assistance.

125 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:53:09pm

re: #120 Tigger2005

I'm not sure if you can even call many of their views "outdated" It's more like they've been received from the Elder Gods sleeping and dreaming in their lairs under the Earth and seas. I mean, I'm 45 and never in my life until maybe 3 years ago did I hear anyone make these bizarre claims about the female body being able to "shut down" in the event of rape. Was this a widespread view in the male-dominated society of the past? I realize they did have a lot of strange beliefs about women in the past, but that was a new one to me.

Sadly, I think this should kill the assumption that each generation is more open minded than the last. That, and the religious right has consolidated it's hold on the South.

126 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:54:07pm

re: #125 dragonath

Sadly, I think this should kill the assumption that each generation is more open minded than the last. That, and the religious right has consolidated it's hold on the South.

And only ridicule will wake them up. forget trying to educate them.

127 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:55:12pm

re: #121 BongCrodny

A few years back, Tom Robb Smith wrote a novel called "Child 44," about a serial killer in 1950's Soviet Russia.

It was what could be described as a good read, although certainly written from a conservative viewpoint -- there were no honorable Soviets; even the "hero" was a willing participant in the frequent purges of the Stalin era. (The book, as I recall, was dedicated to Anne Applebaum -- so, yeah, "conservative viewpoint.")

In the book, the Soviets authorities were portrayed as being completely blinded by ideology -- there was no crime in the Soviet Union: surely, such a being could only exist in the decadent West.

There's no difference between what Hinderaker is offering here and what the Soviets of "Child 44" did -- if you cover up the problem and pretend it doesn't exist, then the problem doesn't exist.

There were people back then like Sidney Hook who were quite left-liberal but still abhorred the brutality and lack of regard for human life of communism. So its not necessarily a conservative viewpoint, though had he been alive to review it William F. Buckley would likely have viewed its depiction favorably.

128 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:58:50pm

re: #123 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Man I miss that voice. I wanted to read his obituaries of Kim Jong Il and Muammar Khadaffi. He would certainly have had something to say about Newton.

He was the king. We have no one like him today. His death left a void. It hurts even though we were so lucky to have him. People ask what reason is there to life. I would tell them, other people.

129 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:59:59pm

re: #124 ProMayaLiberal

What I mean, should I say it? When I saw that, it made me furious.

130 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:01:42pm

re: #99 dragonath

OT: The reports I've been hearing about the Hobbit movie are starting to freak me out. Scatological jokes? Giant bunny sleds? What th'?!

Maybe it's Peter Jackson's sly way of getting out of directing two more Hobbit movies: "You want to make how many movies out of a 300-page book?"

65% positive on Rotten Tomatoes isn't awful, but it's a far cry from The Lord of the Rings numbers (92%, 96% and 94%, respectively).

131 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:10:44pm

re: #123 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Let's hope for some of the young to be so brave.

132 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:16:46pm

Another recent example of mentally unstable person using firearms to kill.
Police: Michael Jansen Kills Baldwin County, Alabama Deputy, Scott Ward and injures Deputy Curtis Summerlin in shooting

BAY MINETTE, Ala. (AP) - Authorities are investigating how an Alabama man committed to mental institutions twice in recent years was able to obtain a gun he used to kill a deputy and wound another during a shootout, despite laws that would have barred him from owning a firearm....

Dixon said Jansen would have had to undergo a background check that could have uncovered his history of mental health problems if he bought the weapon at a store. But the man could have legally purchased the gun from another individual without a check, she said

And here is the press release that announced the closing of the mental health center.

133 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:20:29pm

I've been trying to think of a solution to this problem. I suggested radio tags on guns, but people here ripped hat idea apart.

After that I came to the conclusion that the only practical solution in a country like the US where the right to bear arms can't be gotten rid of is to post armed guards everywhere. I posted that suggestion elsewhere before this article was written.

If you can't stop people from getting weapons and you can't detect when weapons get into a public place all you're left with is "respond as quickly as possible when someone starts shooting"

Making "armed guard" part of other job description is a way of making this solution a lot cheaper. I suggested the same as well.

yes this solution has drawbacks. There will be MORE weapons available everywhere and some of those will be misused. And just because you respond as quickly as possible doesn't mean that you manage to minimize harm in every case. And guards may not be all that skilled.

But if the violence problem is bad enough, then having guards everywhere is the best solution that our system is capable of.

Besides, if a school administrator tells parents: "your children will be safe just as soon as we change the constitution to eliminated the 2nd amendment or change the judges and get them to change the interpretation of the 2nd amendment, and just as soon as all the legislatures in the country act on that change and outlaw weapons" then that administrator has failed to make anyone safer.

On the other hand, if a school (or mall) administrator says, from now on there will be 3 armed guards posted during school hours and 2 on duty during after school activities, then he's succeeded in making his school safer.

I'm sorry but Charles is wrong. Guards would work in America right now. Nothing else will.

134 freetoken  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:21:23pm

re: #130 BongCrodny

65% positive on Rotten Tomatoes isn't awful, but it's a far cry from The Lord of the Rings numbers (92%, 96% and 94%, respectively).

There's been quite a bit of concern aired over the problem of making three movies out of the book. Given the reviews so far, it seems that Jackson has made an average "good" movie, which I suppose is as much as one could reasonably expect.

135 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:21:41pm

And talk of keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people ignores the fact that in this case the guns used didnt belong to the man who used them.

136 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:22:52pm

re: #133 stabby

We can't afford teachers in classrooms, who would pay for all those guards? Who would you go out and hire? What would they do all day? That idea is really dumb.

137 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:23:42pm

re: #135 stabby

And talk of keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people ignores the fact that in this case the guns used didnt belong to the man who used them.

His mom knew that kid was nut. Yet she didn't care enough to keep the guns away from him.

138 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:25:52pm

Senseless acts of a madman, but we have seen this sort of thing planned and executed by organized men with an agenda- Beslan comes to mind.

139 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:26:36pm

re: #137 Mich-again

She loved Guns more than she loved others, evidently.

I would bet she was an NRA member, based on the Gun Nuttiness. If I am correct, I have other suppositions.

140 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:27:58pm

re: #136 Mich-again

We can certainly afford teachers.

Americans just have shit for morals and brains and don't want to pay for teachers.

In Japan they pay teachers, what, twice? three times what they do here? And don't complain about "teacher's unions"

The problem in the US are religious nuts who think that knowledge comes from Satan so they hate teachers and make excuses about money.

141 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:29:05pm

re: #137 Mich-again

His mom knew that kid was nut. Yet she didn't care enough to keep the guns away from him.

And you know this how?

142 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:34:51pm

And I'm utterly unhappy with the calls for censorship (or making the reporting as demeaning as possible) as the answer to violence.

I think that's nonsense. Society is safest when people know the unfettered truth.

And the suggestion, I've read elsewhere, that authorities and reporters should emphasize that killers are losers will backfire.

1) people will start persecuting all the loser loners they know
a) and some of them, expected to be violent will become violent
2) people will have bullshit expectations and not protect themselves from people who don't fit the bullshit narrative
3) people who want to kill will adapt and take advantage of this
4) people will not be fooled and laugh at the pathetic attempts to fool the public

143 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:35:40pm

re: #141 Petero1818

And you know this how?

Everyone they interviewed.. family, neighbors, school mates that knew him talked talked about how as long as they remembered he was a recluse, no friends, anti social, uncontrolled outbursts,took the divorce really hard.. It was no secret to mom that he had some serious issues. Having guns around was disgraceful on her part.

144 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:37:38pm

Since encouraging gun owners not to buy non-sport guns hasn't worked, it would seem that the logical thing to do would to put pressure on the gun lobby itself. The movement is so top-down that a change in leadership would be the quicker way to effect change.

But how? I don't know.

145 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:37:42pm

re: #143 Mich-again

Everyone they interviewed.. family, neighbors, school mates that knew him talked talked about how as long as they remembered he was a recluse, no friends, anti social, uncontrolled outbursts,took the divorce really hard.. It was no secret to mom that he had some serious issues. Having guns around was disgraceful on her part.

Maybe she figured she could control the situation. Wouldn't be the first time that assumption has proven fatal.

146 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:39:40pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

Maybe she figured she could control the situation. Wouldn't be the first time that assumption has proven fatal.

The guns should have been locked up. If she were still alive she would be complicit in all these murders.

147 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:41:16pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

Sounds like Barty Crouch Sr. and Jr. from Harry Potter, at least to a point.

148 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:43:29pm

re: #143 Mich-again

Everyone they interviewed.. family, neighbors, school mates that knew him talked talked about how as long as they remembered he was a recluse, no friends, anti social, uncontrolled outbursts,took the divorce really hard.. It was no secret to mom that he had some serious issues. Having guns around was disgraceful on her part.

First of all I don't trust what is being said at this point. I have heard he suffered from Asperger's which is very different from being "nuts" as you put it. Not even sure if that is true. But reclusive loner children who take divorce hard are a dime a dozen in a nation where roughly half marriages end in divorce.
Ultimately I do not believe anyone should have a gun in their home. Period. But to hold a divorced parent of a difficult child to a different standard than any other parent is in my opinion over the top particularly when we don't have the info to back it up. Perhaps she had a gun locker or safe. There has been no information on that. So when you say things as fact, which cannot at this time been known as fact I don't believe it adds to the discussion. When you say she didnt care enough without any real information to back it up I think it lacks credibility.

149 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:44:42pm

re: #146 Mich-again

The guns should have been locked up. If she were still alive she would be complicit in all these murders.

How do you know the guns were not locked up?

150 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:45:27pm

re: #148 Petero1818

Very often, crystal ball gazing amounts to little more than mirror gazing.

151 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:48:10pm

re: #147 ProMayaLiberal

Sounds like Barty Crouch Sr. and Jr. from Harry Potter, at least to a point.

Explain.

152 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:49:56pm

re: #148 Petero1818

Perhaps she had a gun locker or safe. There has been no information on that.

If she had a gun or locker, she sure as f* didn't use it. Those were her guns used to kill. That is part of the responsibility of being a gun owner. You can't just leave semi-automatic weapons laying around.

153 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:52:12pm

re: #152 Mich-again

If she had a gun or locker, she sure as f* didn't use it. Those were her guns used to kill. That is part of the responsibility of being a gun owner. You can't just leave semi-automatic weapons laying around.

again, I am not trying to invent some hypothetical. But we don't have the facts. Perhaps it was locked up. How do you know this guy didnt at knife point force his mother to open her safe or locker?
I am not saying this happens. But the woman is dead. Before you throw her dead body under the bus, I think a hearing of the facts might be prudent.

154 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:52:39pm

re: #149 Petero1818

How do you know the guns were not locked up?

If she had them "locked up" but her son had a key or he somehow knew the combination, than they weren't really locked up at all now were they.

155 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:56:10pm

re: #151 Dark_Falcon

Barty Crouch Sr. was an ambitious man working for the Ministry of Magic. When his son was found to be in league with Voldemort, he was thrown into Azkaban (Wizard Hypermax), but was later snuck out by Sr at the wishes of his dying wife (Sr.).

He was then forced into seclusion for years, until the events of the Goblet of Fire. That last part reminded me of the scenario you mentioned on the trying to hold the situation of a nasty/mentally unstable man.

156 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:56:15pm

re: #154 Mich-again

If she had them "locked up" but her son had a key or he somehow knew the combination, than they weren't really locked up at all now were they.

All of these facts will become known. I am simply saying it might be prudent to wait until we know those facts before we render conclusions on the mother and how little she cared for her child or the world in which she lived.

157 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:56:52pm

re: #154 Mich-again

It's possible she had the key, and he somehow got it from her.

Where was the mother killed? School or home?

158 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:58:23pm

In the concentration camps, we discovered this whole universe where everyone had his place. The killer came to kill, and the victims came to die.
- Elie Wiesel

159 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:01:33pm

re: #156 Petero1818

All of these facts will become known. I am simply saying it might be prudent to wait until we know those facts before we render conclusions on the mother and how little she cared for her child or the world in which she lived.

It doesn't matter how much she cared.

160 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:03:28pm

re: #159 Mich-again

It doesn't matter how much she cared.

It apparently mattered to you 10 minutes ago when you posted

His mom knew that kid was nut. Yet she didn't care enough to keep the guns away from him.

161 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:05:49pm

re: #157 ProMayaLiberal

At home.

He likely killed her for the key.

162 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:05:56pm

re: #160 Petero1818

It apparently mattered to you 10 minutes ago when you posted

My point is whether or not she cared, she didn't do anything meaningful to keep the guns out of the hands of her son.

163 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:08:15pm

re: #162 Mich-again

My point is whether or not she cared, she didn't do anything meaningful to keep the guns out of the hands of her son.

Again, pure speculation. She may have taken many steps, she may not have. You sound like an idiot when you continue to make statements of fact that you simply cannot support. What she may or may not have done didn't work. Clearly. Does not mean she didn't take "meaningful" steps.

164 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:09:54pm

Apparently, one of the victims was the 6 year old Grand-niece of a Mayor on Puerto Rico.

Hopefully, that town is getting some TLC from the rest of Puerto Rico.

165 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:10:10pm

re: #155 ProMayaLiberal

Barty Crouch Sr. was an ambitious man working for the Ministry of Magic. When his son was found to be in league with Voldemort, he was thrown into Azkaban (Wizard Hypermax), but was later snuck out by Sr at the wishes of his dying wife (Sr.).

He was then forced into seclusion for years, until the events of the Goblet of Fire. That last part reminded me of the scenario you mentioned on the trying to hold the situation of a nasty/mentally unstable man.

Rowling was exploring a fairly universal theme there, that of the family who will not turn one of their own kin, even though he's gone evil. Sometimes this goes on for the family member's entire life, though sometimes it breaks. The Unabomber was finally caught when his brother turned him in.

166 hambone  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:13:05pm

I saw the AP twitter feed yesterday morning when they only knew it was a shooting and was sickened today to read that some children had up to 11 bullet holes. what the hell is wrong with your country it is not freedom to have to bring armed guards to your schools to protect you from other citizens. The right to bare arms was written when all you had was a musket. one shot then they would pile on you. what the hell do you need an automatic weapon for. They are not worth shit for hunting. You can buy most the weapons used in these shootings in Canada, except for the high capacity magazines. The Crown just finished charging two people who bought some in the USA and tried to smuggle them into Canada. they should be out of jail in a few years. I will not insult your intelligence and say we never have this happen up here but it is very seldom have these types of acts. Most of our media is like yours or is American, so I think that is not the real problem. It maybe partially the cultural mindset that these people are exposed to that tells them you can settle your differences with a gun or stand your ground.
That and stop letting people buy guns at shows without even a license might help. it seems strange that the answer most of you are coming up with is more guards to protect you from other peoples rights. I don't think this is the more perfect union George was thinking you would have. I had wrote alot more but when I read it I realized I was as full of crap as everyone else and really didn't have an answer on how to stop this. As such I fear these types of incidence will continue.

167 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:14:38pm

Either she was careful as she could possibly be with the weapons and they got into the wrong hands anyway. Or maybe she was extremely lax with them and the kid just picked them up. Either way, those weapons sold for her self defense ended up being used for mass murder.

168 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:15:22pm

re: #142 stabby

And the suggestion, I've read elsewhere, that authorities and reporters should emphasize that killers are losers will backfire.

1) people will start persecuting all the loser loners they know
a) and some of them, expected to be violent will become violent
2) people will have bullshit expectations and not protect themselves from people who don't fit the bullshit narrative
3) people who want to kill will adapt and take advantage of this
4) people will not be fooled and laugh at the pathetic attempts to fool the public

What? What the hell kind of twisted excuse for logic did you use to come up with that dog-pile of non-sequiturs?

169 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:16:30pm

re: #167 Mich-again

Either she was careful as she could possibly be with the weapons and they got into the wrong hands anyway. Or maybe she was extremely lax with them and the kid just picked them up. Either way, those weapons sold for her self defense ended up being used for mass murder.

Now that is the first thing you have said I am happy to get behind. No guesswork, no speculation. See how easy that is?

170 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:23:10pm

Looking over at the headlines on pjmedia (na I'm not interested enough to actually read the articles) it looks like they're blaming the shooting on:
a) evil and
b) moral relativism

A is just stupid. Shooting kids is evil, but that's the event not the cause. It's a bit like saying "no no no they didn't die because of guns, they died because they were full of little holes"

B is just another example of using a tragedy to sell your favorite snake oil, like the guy who said it's "lack of God in the classroom"

171 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:28:34pm

re: #170 stabby

Looking over at the headlines on pjmedia (na I'm not interested enough to actually read the articles) it looks like they're blaming the shooting on:
a) evil and
b) moral relativism

A is just stupid. Shooting kids is evil, but that's the event not the cause. It's a bit like saying "no no no they didn't die because of guns, they died because they were full of little holes"

B is just another example of using a tragedy to sell your favorite snake oil, like the guy who said it's "lack of God in the classroom"

Well I'd say that evil can be invoked in as far as Adam Lanza chose an evil path. He wasn't insane, and knew what he was doing was vile but did it anyways. You can't use 'evil' simply to explain things away entirely, but it does have its place in the discussion. More than most 'active shooters', Adam Lanza was simply evil.

172 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:28:52pm

Also they're saying terribly mean things about Hillary Clinton fainting and getting a concussion while already sick.

So disgusting :(

173 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:31:08pm

re: #170 stabby

Looking over at the headlines on pjmedia (na I'm not interested enough to actually read the articles) it looks like they're blaming the shooting on:
a) evil and
b) moral relativism

A is just stupid. Shooting kids is evil, but that's the event not the cause. It's a bit like saying "no no no they didn't die because of guns, they died because they were full of little holes"

B is just another example of using a tragedy to sell your favorite snake oil, like the guy who said it's "lack of God in the classroom"

Life, much like a movie or a book can be viewed in layers. for (a) children, (b) adults who lack sufficient intelligence, and (c) religious zealots (who may be part of group (b) as well) things are often explained in black and white. Good and Evil. Heaven and Hell. God and Satan. In viewing things this way one is able to explain any event in the context of the construct in which they live their lives. For children, it is a big help as there are concepts that kids of a certain age cannot and should not have to process. For adults it is sad and pathetic.

174 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:33:03pm

re: #171 Dark_Falcon

If you believe in Satan, then you can blame things on "evil" as if it were a substance rather than a value judgment on actions or people.

But that's just superstitious nonsense.

By the way, if you believe that shit then why did God make evil?

175 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:34:44pm

re: #171 Dark_Falcon

Well I'd say that evil can be invoked in as far as Adam Lanza chose an evil path. He wasn't insane, and knew what he was doing was vile but did it anyways. You can't use 'evil' simply to explain things away entirely, but it does have its place in the discussion. More than most 'active shooters', Adam Lanza was simply evil.

Evil as an adjective is fine. Evil as a noun is not.

176 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:35:03pm

re: #170 stabby

B is just another example of using a tragedy to sell your favorite snake oil, like the guy who said it's "lack of God in the classroom"

The problem in Benghazi was a lack of God in the Embassy.

177 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:35:46pm

re: #176 Mich-again

I bet they've used that.

178 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:37:42pm

re: #176 Mich-again

The problem in Benghazi was a lack of God in the Embassy.

strangely they are still struggling to explain the crusades, the inquisitions, the countless wars fought in the name of god.

179 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:47:30pm

re: #178 Petero1818

strangely they are still struggling to explain the crusades, the inquisitions, the countless wars fought in the name of god.

Those were Obama's fault and Bill Ayers. Also Saul Alinsky.

180 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:48:31pm

re: #174 stabby

If you believe in Satan, then you can blame things on "evil" as if it were a substance rather than a value judgment on actions or people.

But that's just superstitious nonsense.

By the way, if you believe that shit then why did God make evil?

181 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:50:05pm

re: #177 stabby

I bet they've used that.

No way.. That was Susan Rice's fault. Or maybe it was Obama's fault? God had the day off.

182 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:06:35pm

re: #174 stabby

God didn't 'make' evil; God gave his angels and later humanity Free Will and some of both have then chosen to be evil. Why God gave that gift is not for us to know. We simply must use it the right way.

183 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:26:26pm

Check this out, a Czechoslovakian rendition of Mack the Knife:

184 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:32:21pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

God didn't give ME free will, but that doesn't make you safe around me because he didn't make me good either.

So when I do bad stuff, it's all God's fault.

185 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:34:55pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

God didn't 'make' evil; God gave his angels and later humanity Free Will and some of both have then chosen to be evil. Why God gave that gift is not for us to know. We simply must use it the right way.

That we must do something kind of flies in the face of free will.

186 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:39:21pm

Good Night, All.

187 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:46:52pm

re: #174 stabby

You don't have to act all offended because D_F expressed his own sincere theological belief. If that's "shit", you'll find there are plenty of people here who believe in it.

188 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:56:02pm
189 CuriousLurker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:01:27pm

re: #188 Kragar

Great, the GOP got exactly what they wanted. *sigh*

190 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:47:24pm

There's a major election in Japan today. It's worth watching since Shintaro Ishihara's party, "Japan Restoration", is polling within the margin of error of the current government.

From Wikipedia, here's a greatest hits of sorts:

In 1990, Ishihara said in a Playboy interview that the Rape of Nanking was a fiction, claiming, ”People say that the Japanese made a holocaust but that is not true. It is a story made up by the Chinese. It has tarnished the image of Japan, but it is a lie.”[31]

In 2000, Ishihara, one of the eight judges for a literary prize, commented that homosexuality is abnormal, which caused an outrage in the gay community in Japan.[34]

In a 2001 interview with women's magazine Shukan Josei, Ishihara said that he believed "old women who live after they have lost their reproductive function are useless and are committing a sin," adding that he "couldn't say this as a politician."

At a Tokyo IOC press briefing in 2009, Governor Ishihara dismissed a letter sent by environmentalist Paul Coleman regarding the contradiction of his promoting the Tokyo Olympic 2016 bid as 'the greenest ever' while destroying the forested mountain of Minamiyama, the closest 'Satoyama' to the centre of Tokyo, by angrily stating Coleman was 'Just a foreigner, it does not matter'. Then, on continued questioning by investigative journalist Hajime Yokata, he stated 'Minamiyama is a Devil's Mountain that eats children.' Then he went on to explain how unmanaged forests 'eat children' and implied that Yokota, a Japanese national, was betraying his nation by saying 'What nationality are you anyway?' This was recorded on film[37] and turned into a video that was sent around the world as the Save Minamiyama Movement[38]

In 2010, Ishihara claimed that Korea under Japanese rule was absolutely justified due to historical pressures from Qing Dynasty and Imperial Russia.[39]

191 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 12:01:05am

OT: Wow! Just wow! I just read an SI article about ESPN suspending Rob Parker on his raciest comments on First Take.
I think the comment section may be some of the ugliest most raciest comments I've ever read. It was ugly and crazy and I couldn't stop reading them.

192 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 12:25:42am

re: #171 Dark_Falcon

Well I'd say that evil can be invoked in as far as Adam Lanza chose an evil path. He wasn't insane, and knew what he was doing was vile but did it anyways. You can't use 'evil' simply to explain things away entirely, but it does have its place in the discussion. More than most 'active shooters', Adam Lanza was simply evil.

"Evil" is too often used in she sense of "not believing in my religion"

193 stabby  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 12:26:00am

re: #187 dragonath

You don't have to act all offended because D_F expressed his own sincere theological belief. If that's "shit", you'll find there are plenty of people here who believe in it.

The word you're looking for is "offensive" not "offended"

If there's a way to put religion in its rightful place without blatant mockery I don't know how to do it.

Modernity, reason, science, peace, freedom are only possible once religion is defanged and tamed - when its place of honor is entirely symbolic and it has been beaten into submission.

194 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 12:27:57am

re: #193 stabby

The word you're looking for is "offensive" not "offended"

If there's a way to put religion in its rightful place without blatant mockery I don't know how to do it.

Modernity, reason, science, peace, freedom are only possible once religion is defanged and tamed - when its place of honor is entirely symbolic and it has been beaten into submission.

That goes a bit far, but the delineation betwen rational thought (with its limits) and faith (which is unlimited but irrational) is drawn - needs to be codified into law before a society can progress and proper.

195 stabby  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 12:49:04am

re: #194 Sol Berdinowitz

That goes a bit far, but the delineation betwen rational thought (with its limits) and faith (which is unlimited but irrational) is drawn - needs to be codified into law before a society can progress and proper.

Unlimited?

That reminds me of a quote:
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein

196 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 12:52:54am

re: #195 stabby

Unlimited?

That reminds me of a quote:
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein

Unlimited in the sense that it can apply to anyting, from speculation about our origins to what happens to us after death.

Science applies only to the tangible and objectively verifiable.

I see it as a major failing of basic American education that people do not understand what science is or how science works, and where it does and does not apply, likewise for faith and dogma.

197 Locker  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 12:53:18am

The ultimate goal of these wing nuts is to force everyone to carry a gun, for our protection.

Anyone who thinks a gun can stop violence has never been in combat. Friendly fire is a harsh reality as well as readiness, luck, training, proximity, etc. All of which can not be overcome by a concealed weapon and a weekend training course.

198 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 12:55:47am

re: #197 Locker

The ultimate goal of these wing nuts is to force everyone to carry a gun, for our protection.

Anyone who thinks a gun can stop violence has never been in combat. Friendly fire is a harsh reality as well as readiness, luck, training, proximity, etc. All of which can not be overcome by a concealed weapon and a weekend training course.

NRA: Guns don't kill people do!

Sane people: Guns don't protect people, laws do!

199 Locker  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:13:37am

re: #198 Sol Berdinowitz

Guns don't kill people they just help people kill more efficiently.

The problem with a gun is the same problem with a hand grenade or an open bucket of acid on your coffee table. It's extremely dangerous and way too easy to make a mistake.

200 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:15:38am

re: #193 stabby

The problem with your argument is that you're trying to force a rational viewpoint with irrational emotionalism. Ignorance wears many different clothes, and religion is often one. But ignorance on the gun issue is not driven by it.

201 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:19:32am

re: #199 Locker

Guns don't kill people they just help people kill more efficiently.

The problem with a gun is the same problem with a hand grenade or an open bucket of acid on your coffee table. It's extremely dangerous and way too easy to make a mistake.

Any maniac can use a gun to kill indiscriminately. It takes a moderate degree of training to be able to use a gun in self-defense. It takes a trained and experienced professional to use a gun to defend other people, especially in a public place.

This is where the "arm everybody" argument falls flat on its face.

202 dragonath  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:22:09am

re: #201 Sol Berdinowitz

The entire "arm everybody" argument is the logical endpoint of fundamentalist conservatism - social control achieved by a culture of fear.

203 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:24:19am

It is also a throwback to the Jeffersonian ideal of the gentleman farmer living independently and self-suffieciently on the settlement he had carved out of the pristine wilderness (with just a bit of help from the government in clearing out those pesky indigenous peoples)

204 researchok  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 1:58:36am

Morning, all

I'm taking the day off...may have to travel

205 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:00:23am

"Arm everyone" is horseshit. Anyone who really wants a gun can legally purchase and own one today as it stands (and can get one easily enough even if they can't get one legally). What are they going to do? Legally require a person carry a gun on them at all times, even if they don't want to?

206 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:13:13am

re: #205 Kragar

"Arm everyone" is horseshit. Anyone who really wants a gun can legally purchase and own one today as it stands (and can get one easily enough even if they can't get one legally). What are they going to do? Legally require a person carry a gun on them at all times, even if they don't want to?

Just another distract-and-deflect talking point.

Again: any maniac with a gun can kill indiscriminately.

To defend yourself with a gun, you need a degree of training.

Do be able to defend others with a gun, especially in a crowded public place, you need a great deal of training and experience.

207 Steve  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:24:14am

Not to throw gas on a fire but for your consideration, here is an interview that has to do with the Clackamas Mall shooting.

208 engineer cat  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:33:54am

re: #174 stabby

If you believe in Satan, then you can blame things on "evil" as if it were a substance rather than a value judgment on actions or people.

But that's just superstitious nonsense.

By the way, if you believe that shit then why did God make evil?

this paradox was faced by christian theologians many centuries ago when they followed to its logical conclusion the theological position that the devil has no power independent of being a tool of god's will, since god is omnipotent

they named the paradox "the problem of evil"

their answer to this paradox, if god is all good and all powerful, why is there evil?

they decided they don't know

209 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:50:59am

re: #133 stabby

Oh for fuck's sake. "Armed guards everywhere" is seriously your idea.

It's getting really hard to tell if you're just a sophist.

210 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 2:57:53am

re: #209 Obdicut

Oh for fuck's sake. "Armed guards everywhere" is seriously your idea.

It's getting really hard to tell if you're just a sophist.

I think his point point is that armed guards would be an immediate solution, changing our approach to guns and gun culture will take generations.

It is always quicker and easier to deal with the symptoms than to go for the root causes.

211 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:00:20am

re: #209 Obdicut

Oh for fuck's sake. "Armed guards everywhere" is seriously your idea.

It's getting really hard to tell if you're just a sophist.

So I take it a plan to place all orphans in state run schools to be taught to uphold the law and being given the powers of judge, jury, and executioner as they roam the land upon completion of their training is right out?

212 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:00:31am

re: #210 Sol Berdinowitz

It would have a high possibility of making things a lot worse.

213 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:01:16am

re: #211 Kragar

Teach kids the weirding ways. That'll solve everything.

214 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:02:52am

re: #213 Obdicut

Teach kids the weirding ways. That'll solve everything.

Too girly.

215 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:19:39am

re: #212 Obdicut

It would have a high possibility of making things a lot worse.

It would only work if we had enough well-trained, motivated and well-paid staff to do the guarding. Who are we gonna get to go along with funding that?

216 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:34:56am

re: #215 Sol Berdinowitz

Just finding the people would be a monumental challenge. And you can never really tell how someone will act in a crisis until they're actually in one.

217 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:37:25am

re: #216 Obdicut

Just finding the people would be a monumental challenge. And you can never really tell how someone will act in a crisis until they're actually in one.

This is another fallacy of our modern security state: that increasing police/security personnel automatically leads to a proportional increase in security. At some stage in there, you reach a point of diminshing returns.

218 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:46:12am

re: #217 Sol Berdinowitz

This is another fallacy of our modern security state: that increasing police/security personnel automatically leads to a proportional increase in security. At some stage in there, you reach a point of diminshing returns.

On a happier note, it's also a refutation of Foucalt's ultraparanoid security state: the nightmarish situation where you're being carefully watched all the time by the authorities is not really possible because the authorities would get bored, jack off, etc.

219 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:51:35am

re: #218 Obdicut

On a happier note, it's also a refutation of Foucalt's ultraparanoid security state: the nightmarish situation where you're being carefully watched all the time by the authorities is not really possible because the authorities would get bored, jack off, etc.

Automation however promises fresh nightmares. Just have to get the cost down a bit.

220 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 3:53:52am

re: #219 goddamnedfrank

Sure, but there has to be an interpreter somewhere. Well, I guess the nightmare is an inconsistent, arbitrary security culture that depends on automation despite it being really flawed. That could easily happen. Guy hammering on the locked door of the school getting shot by the autoguards on suspicion of coming there to kill the kids; was actually worried because his daughter had forget her inhaler.

There are infinite mistakes, and few correct choices.

221 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:02:56am

Complexity does not mean security. Just because a solution is high tech and advanced doesn't mean its worth a damn. It just means the ways to get around it aren't common knowledge yet.

222 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:07:42am

re: #218 Obdicut

On a happier note, it's also a refutation of Foucalt's ultraparanoid security state: the nightmarish situation where you're being carefully watched all the time by the authorities is not really possible because the authorities would get bored, jack off, etc.

or start fooling around with their mistresses and writing them thousands of e-mails?

223 Amory Blaine  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:51:18am

Rep. Brandon Dillon (D-Grand Rapids)

224 Kragar  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 4:58:45am

News outlets to fight Romney campaign over food, travel expenses

Multiple organizations are preparing to file an official complaint regarding large charges billed to them by the campaign for meals and other events, reported BuzzFeed.

It is common practice for campaigns to front the cost of meals and other expenses, such as bus travel, for campaign reporters and afterwards bill the news outlets for the expenditures.

But now some outlets claim the bills are much larger than normal. In one instance, reporters were each charged $812 for a meal and a rented space where they waited before going to an event. Reporters were charged $745 after attending a “viewing party” for the vice presidential debate that featured food and alcohol.

225 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 5:01:58am

re: #224 Kragar

Romney's campaign: Fractally cruel.

226 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 5:13:37am

re: #225 Obdicut

Romney's campaign: Fractally cruel.

Probably deep in debt and trying to cover as much of their losses as they can...

227 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 5:30:29am

re: #4 PhillyPretzel

The President is going to Newtown on Sunday. [Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I hope he stops by Breitbartland to kiss the boo-boo on Steven Crowder's nose.

228 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 5:36:40am

re: #208 engineer cat

this paradox was faced by christian theologians many centuries ago when they followed to its logical conclusion the theological position that the devil has no power independent of being a tool of god's will, since god is omnipotent

they named the paradox "the problem of evil"

their answer to this paradox, if god is all good and all powerful, why is there evil?

they decided they don't know

The answer is clearly there for them in the Book of Job: God and the Devil are fucking with us for the lulz.

Good Sunday morning, all.

229 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 5:53:28am

re: #228 Decatur Deb

The answer is clearly there for them in the Book of Job: God and the Devil are fucking with us for the lulz.

Good Sunday morning, all.

Helter Skelter!

I think the answer would be that god isn't all powerful and the idea was that there was a struggle between good and evil. God represents good, while the Devil represents evil. God never had dominion over the Devil and the struggle continues in superhero like proportions. Thus god isn't all good and powerful especially when you consider that he/she has other planets to run.

//

230 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 5:56:10am

re: #209 Obdicut

Oh for fuck's sake. "Armed guards everywhere" is seriously your idea.

It's getting really hard to tell if you're just a sophist.

Nihilist seems closer in some ways, though you're probably more correct. Plus it's so much fun how Destro & him seem to be having a race to see how many people it's ok to hate on. He seem to prefer to hate all religious people for the sins of some while Destro prefers to hate all gun owners for the sins of some.

231 Dr Lizardo  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 5:56:30am

re: #228 Decatur Deb

Islam somewhat resolves that, as Iblis (the proper name for Old Scratch, who by the way, is not an angel in Islam, but a djinn) does have independent power, with preconditions.

But as you said, it's all about the lulz.

232 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 5:56:38am

re: #229 Gus

Helter Skelter!

I think the answer would be that god isn't all powerful and the idea was that there was a struggle between good and evil. God represents good, while the Devil represents evil. God never had dominion over the Devil and the struggle continues in superhero like proportions. Thus god isn't all good and powerful especially when you consider that he/she has other planets to run.

//

The Pope begs to differ. You will be given an opportunity to recant. Perhaps you would like to look at these interesting instruments...

233 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 5:57:40am

re: #220 Obdicut

Sure, but there has to be an interpreter somewhere. Well, I guess the nightmare is an inconsistent, arbitrary security culture that depends on automation despite it being really flawed. That could easily happen. Guy hammering on the locked door of the school getting shot by the autoguards on suspicion of coming there to kill the kids; was actually worried because his daughter had forget her inhaler.

There are infinite mistakes, and few correct choices.

Machines can make decisions, but no matter how hard the programmers try, they have no judgement. How could they? Judgment, in my opinion, requires caring and machines will never care.

234 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 5:58:21am

re: #232 Decatur Deb

The Pope begs to differ. You will be given an opportunity to recant. Perhaps you would like to look at these interesting instruments...

A lute, flute and drum with canticles. //

235 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:01:15am

Someone with 3 followers on Twitter is informing me on how to get 3,333 new followers.

//

236 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:05:19am

re: #233 Romantic Heretic

Machines can make decisions, but no matter how hard the programmers try, they have no judgement. How could they? Judgment, in my opinion, requires caring and machines will never care.

Machines cannot be held responsible for their judgements either, someone has to be willing to take the rap if the machines screw up.

237 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:07:06am

re: #235 Gus

Someone with 3 followers on Twitter is informing me on how to get 3,333 new followers.

//

I guess I will ask, as I am clueless as to Twitter and how it works. But what is the point of collecting followers on Twitter? Do you get to trade them in for bonus points somewhere?

I hear it is a major issue, there was a case of someone quitting a company and taking their Twitter feed with thousands of followers, the company tried to sue him for the "value" of the followers.

238 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:09:19am

re: #237 Sol Berdinowitz

I guess I will ask, as I am clueless as to Twitter and how it works. But what is the point of collecting followers on Twitter? Do you get to trade them in for bonus points somewhere?

I hear it is a major issue, there was a case of someone quitting a company and taking their Twitter feed with thousands of followers, the company tried to sue him for the "value" of the followers.

I don't even know how that works. I understand some losers went out and purchased these followers -- people like Brooks Bayne. I imagine you just get a bunch of brain dead Twitter types that grunt two words or less or the ones that think Justin Bieber is a "musician."

239 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:17:34am

re: #230 William Barnett-Lewis

Nah, stabby was also making the stupid old "Islam is worse than Christianity 'cuz they have to take it literally OMG" argument, too, so he has room to hate one group of religious people more than another.

240 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:19:22am

Seems to be a rather high level of disgruntlement on Twitter this morning. Must be MTP and Uppers.

241 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:19:54am

re: #240 Gus

Ima start selling 'gruntles' and make a fortune.

242 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:20:28am

re: #239 Obdicut

Nah, stabby was also making the stupid old "Islam is worse than Christianity 'cuz they have to take it literally OMG" argument, too, so he has room to hate one group of religious people more than another.

So he agrees with every fundamentalist Imam out there?

243 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:21:11am

Maybe it's #SantaConNYC.

244 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:23:07am

re: #243 Gus

Ah shit I forgot about that. Drunk puking santas everywhere. I'll probably be safe at the 92nd street Y, though. Not very santa-oriented.

245 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:24:07am

re: #244 Obdicut

Ah shit I forgot about that. Drunk puking santas everywhere. I'll probably be safe at the 92nd street Y, though. Not very santa-oriented.

Looks stupid from what I've seen. A bunch of drunk jocks and frat boys dressed up as Santa Claus bar hopping. Lot of complaints.

246 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:25:16am

re: #245 Gus

It's terrible. It's just an excuse for bad behavior.

247 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:26:56am

re: #246 Obdicut

It's terrible. It's just an excuse for bad behavior.

in a group...in disguise...brings out the worst, doesn't it.

248 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:29:18am

re: #244 Obdicut

Ah shit I forgot about that. Drunk puking santas everywhere. I'll probably be safe at the 92nd street Y, though. Not very santa-oriented.

when I was in Israel, all the streets in Jerusalem were decorated up for Hanukkah. I only saw one Santa, sitting at an outdoor tea cafe in the Muslim Quarter of the Old City, smoking a cigarette.

249 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:29:43am

re: #246 Obdicut

It's terrible. It's just an excuse for bad behavior.

I never knew this was some kind of tradition. Was it sponsored my Maxim or some vodka company?

250 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:32:04am

Obama people haz angry at Mayor Bloomberg.

251 ProMayaLiberal  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:37:24am

re: #250 Gus

What happened?

252 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:39:26am

re: #251 ProMayaLiberal

What happened?

He was castigating Obama over gun control. See the latest timeline here. People freak out when people do this because there's a rather big contingent out there that feels that no one should ever criticize the president for anything.

253 Neo_  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:40:12am

The massacre in CT was a response to the coming economic collapse...

Last night it also emerged Nancy was a member of the Doomsday Preppers movement, which believes people should prepare for end of the world.
Her former sister-in-law Marsha said she had turned her home ‘into a fortress’. She added: ‘Nancy had a survivalist philosophy which is why she was stockpiling guns. She had them for defense.
‘She was stockpiling food. She grew up on a farm in New Hampshire. She was skilled with guns. We talked about preppers and preparing for the economy collapsing.’

... a 'economy collapsing' ? ... trillion dollar deficits ? .. but who is responsible for that ? ... the Mayans ?

254 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:40:13am

re: #193 stabby

And for that anti-religion remark you can have a downding. Congrats, stabby, on matters of religion you really do hold the sort of views Glenn Beck claims to be fighting.

255 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:40:46am

Hey. Anyone know if a Bushmaster .223 would classify as an assault weapon?

256 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:42:00am

re: #254 Dark_Falcon

And for that anti-religion remark you can have a downding. Congrats, stabby, on matters of religion you really do hold the sort of views Glenn Beck claims to be fighting.

When it comes to the dispute between religion vs science, it was not the scientists persecuting the theologians back then, yunno...

I cannot think of a single case of scientists burning a bishop at the stake.

257 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:43:25am

re: #256 Sol Berdinowitz

When it comes to the dispute between religion vs science, it was not the scientists persecuting the theologians back then, yunno...

I cannot think of a single case of scientists burning a bishop at the stake.

Is it wrong of me to find this humorous? :D

258 ProMayaLiberal  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:44:58am

re: #252 Gus

And Obama can do what exactly? Congress is the group that passes laws. Bloomberg wants to complain, he can go do it to Congress.

259 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:45:01am

re: #255 Gus

Hey. Anyone know if a Bushmaster .223 would classify as an assault weapon?

"Assault weapon" is a meaningless classification. You might be looking for "assault rifle," in which case no, it's not.

260 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:46:42am

re: #259 Targetpractice

"Assault weapon" is a meaningless classification. You might be looking for "assault rifle," in which case no, it's not.

Just wondering. People are calling for an assault weapons ban in response to Newtown which involved a Bushmaster .223 which wouldn't fall under an assault weapons ban thus I find it kind of, illogical.

261 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:47:22am

re: #257 Gus

Is it wrong of me to find this humorous? :D

Christians roasting on an open fire, lions nipping at their toes...


/

262 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:47:58am

re: #255 Gus

Hey. Anyone know if a Bushmaster .223 would classify as an assault weapon?

Real definition? No. It's not selective fire.
Political definition? Yes. It's scary looking.

BBL. Sunday School to teach. Booga-Booga, Stabby.

263 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:48:05am

re: #261 Sol Berdinowitz

Christians roasting on an open fire, lions nipping at their toes...

/

He's a witch bishop! Burn him!

//

264 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:48:19am

re: #260 Gus

It's similar to people bemoaning mental health when this dude has a very wealthy parent and obviously could have gotten whatever mental health treatment was available.

265 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:49:30am

re: #252 Gus

He was castigating Obama over gun control. See the latest timeline here. People freak out when people do this because there's a rather big contingent out there that feels that no one should ever criticize the president for anything.

Bloomberg is having an episode of political tunnel-vision. President Obama is in the middle of difficult budget negotiations with House Speaker John Boehner, and those negotiations hold top priority. If Obama were to come out strong for new gun control laws right now, those negotiations would collapse, as the uproar within the GOP would force Speaker Boehner to withdraw from the negotiations. So whatever Mayor Bloomberg might want, the realities on current politics require the president to focus on matters other than gun control.

266 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:49:35am

re: #260 Gus

Just wondering. People are calling for an assaults weapons ban in response to Newtown which involved a Bushmaster .223 which wouldn't fall under an assault weapons ban thus I find it kind of, illogical.

Well, in terms of the Assault Weapons Ban, the term "assault weapon" basically came to mean "scary gun," as in anything that was black and looked the least bit "military" in appearance. In which case, I'm sure whatever new AWB is written will limit the number of Bushmasters in circulation, or at least will try to. But there were ways around the old AWB and I'm sure there will be ways around the new one. The NRA will demand them.

267 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:54:07am

re: #265 Dark_Falcon

Bloomberg is having an episode of political tunnel-vision. President Obama is in the middle of difficult budget negotiations with House Speaker John Boehner, and those negotiations hold top priority. If Obama were to come out strong for new gun control laws right now, those negotiations would collapse, as the uproar within the GOP would force Speaker Boehner to withdraw from the negotiations. So whatever Mayor Bloomberg might want, the realities on current politics require the president to focus on matters other than gun control.

Yes, fiscal cliff aside I don't think it's even realistic given the Republican majority in the House.

268 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:54:32am

re: #256 Sol Berdinowitz

When it comes to the dispute between religion vs science, it was not the scientists persecuting the theologians back then, yunno...

I cannot think of a single case of scientists burning a bishop at the stake.

No, but atheistic regimes have persecuted religion quite brutally. You might want to look up the fate of the Cham Muslims in Cambodia following the Khmer Rouge takeover. Most were forced to violate their religion be eating pork, the more devout who refused were either clubbed to death or suffocated with plastic bags. Communist regimes claimed they were acting under the aegis of "Scientific Marxism", and even they ignored science they still claimed it as justification.

- Source: The Black Book of Communism

269 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:59:36am

re: #267 Gus

Yes, fiscal cliff aside I don't think it's even realistic given the Republican majority in the House.

Theoretically plausible that some minor bill might get through, perhaps something towards tightening the background check system, but it won't amount to much. The NRA learned from its past mistake and now keeps the GOP's balls in a jar to assure there will be no repeat of the AWB.

270 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:00:24am

re: #266 Targetpractice

Well, in terms of the Assault Weapons Ban, the term "assault weapon" basically came to mean "scary gun," as in anything that was black and looked the least bit "military" in appearance. In which case, I'm sure whatever new AWB is written will limit the number of Bushmasters in circulation, or at least will try to. But there were ways around the old AWB and I'm sure there will be ways around the new one. The NRA will demand them.

OK, thanks. Seems rather vague but I found something on Wiki.

In the former U.S. law, the legal term assault weapon included certain specific semi-automatic firearm models by name (e.g., Colt AR-15, TEC-9, non-select-fire AK-47s produced by three manufacturers, and Uzis) and other semi-automatic firearms because they possess a minimum set of cosmetic features from the following list of features:

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

• Folding or telescoping stock
• Pistol grip
• Bayonet mount
• Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
• Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device that enables launching or firing rifle grenades, though this applies only to muzzle mounted grenade launchers and not those mounted externally).

Looks like it would meet two of the other criteria maybe three? It has a pistol grip and can accommodate a flash suppressor. Not sure if it has bayonet mount.

271 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:00:31am

re: #268 Dark_Falcon

No, but atheistic regimes have persecuted religion quite brutally. You might want to look up the fate of the Cham Muslims in Cambodia following the Khmer Rouge takeover. Most were forced to violate their religion be eating pork, the more devout who refused were either clubbed to death or suffocated with plastic bags. Communist regimes claimed they were acting under the aegis of "Scientific Marxism", and even they ignored science they still claimed it as justification.

- Source: The Black Book of Communism

I could argue that those were not "true scientists", they were just politicians acting in the name of a corrupted concept of "science".

And one could argue that it was just due reprisal for the role that religion often played in supporting oppressive regimes, etc.

But I won't.

'Cause it all sucks and is neither justifiable or necessary.

272 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:02:05am

re: #260 Gus

Just wondering. People are calling for an assault weapons ban in response to Newtown which involved a Bushmaster .223 which wouldn't fall under an assault weapons ban thus I find it kind of, illogical.

With the wrong accessories (hi-cap mag, etc) the Bushmaster might be out under the lapsed law's definition.

If the makers want to make their weapons into Scary Black Guns for marketing purposes, they shouldn't bitch if normal wuffos are scared of them.

273 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:03:02am

re: #272 Decatur Deb

With the wrong accessories (hi-cap mag, etc) the Bushmaster might be out under the lapsed law's definition.

If the maker's want to make their weapons into Scary Black Guns for marketing purposes, they shouldn't bitch if normal wuffos are scared of them.

Que es wuffos?

274 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:03:33am

re: #268 Dark_Falcon

Calling them atheist regimes is bullshit. The atheism was not the inspiration for the regime; it was incidental.

275 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:04:26am

re: #273 Gus

Que es wuffos?

A baby Wookie
Image: wookie+side+with+strap+crop+1000+pix.jpg

276 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:04:46am

re: #273 Gus

Que es wuffos?

The uninformed, from: "Wuffo you jump out of airplanes?", "Wuffo you got a flash suppressor?"

277 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:05:53am

re: #268 Dark_Falcon

No, but atheistic regimes have persecuted religion quite brutally. You might want to look up the fate of the Cham Muslims in Cambodia following the Khmer Rouge takeover. Most were forced to violate their religion be eating pork, the more devout who refused were either clubbed to death or suffocated with plastic bags. Communist regimes claimed they were acting under the aegis of "Scientific Marxism", and even they ignored science they still claimed it as justification.

- Source: The Black Book of Communism

Thwack!

278 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:07:31am

re: #274 Obdicut

Calling them atheist regimes is bullshit. The atheism was not the inspiration for the regime; it was incidental.

Actually, Obdi, it was integral to them. It wasn't a main focus, but it was part of their campaign to eliminate any form of ideological competition. Communism couldn't tolerate Islam, Judaism, or Christianity because they represent different and superior moral explanations of humanity.

279 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:12:04am

The Soviets weren't atheistic but instead more anti-Orthodox Church. From what I understand the last thing you would want is to have the Russian Orthodox Church involved in the government. We have seen their return and the several members of Pussy Riot are sitting in prison because of them. They have signaled a return to blasphemy laws. They are counter to the cause of democracy as we understand it. They should be free to practice their religion but should have no part in the governance of the Russian people.

280 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:12:58am

re: #278 Dark_Falcon

Actually, Obdi, it was integral to them. It wasn't a main focus, but it was part of their campaign to eliminate any form of ideological competition. Communism couldn't tolerate Islam, Judaism, or Christianity because they represent different and superior moral explanations of humanity.

Superior moral explanations. Superior to what? Communistic morals or superior in a global sense?

281 A Mom Anon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:13:39am

I don't know about anywhere else,but here in our school district,every high school already has an armed cop on the payroll with his/her own office. In a school with over 2000 kids,I fail to see how one guy with a gun and no body armor is going to cover a giant school building and protect every student. The answer isn't more armed guards.

Since we know many mental illnesses begin manifesting in the late teens and early 20s (like schizophrenia),perhaps we should focus on getting school psychologists back on the payrolls. Guidance counselors don't do mental health anymore, they work on helping kids and parents navigate the path to college. There is one school psychologist and one assistant "behavioral specialist"in our district, which covers about 115,000 kids.

I really think our culture is mentally ill. We've got some really fucked up concepts about what makes a Man a Man. We barely blink over extreme violence as part of our entertainment. We reward the biggest assholes and most dysfunctional people with high dollar salaries,be it the CEO or reality TV star. Bullying is a huge problem ,and not just in schools. The more money you have the more you get away with. If I stole money from people, I'd go to jail. The CEO of Hostess and his cronies stole the pension money from their employees and gave it to themselves and that's somehow legal. Somehow it's the horrible union workers' fault and not the guys who stole and ran that company onto the rocks.

I firmly believe that each and every one of these horrific events is a sign from the Universe that we are NOT GETTING IT. Until compassion, intelligence, and being truly good are embraced and honored, more than money or "manliness", this shit is going to keep happening and each time will be a little more horrifying than the last. Our priorities as a country are fucked up and we aren't even close to getting a handle on it yet. The will to do so isn't there and at this point I have no idea what the hell it's going to take.

282 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:15:09am

Back from the dogwalk. My neighbors' display includes a large inflatable blue walrus with a Santa hat. I seem to have missed a parable...or a Disney movie.

283 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:15:28am

re: #278 Dark_Falcon

Actually, Obdi, it was integral to them. It wasn't a main focus, but it was part of their campaign to eliminate any form of ideological competition. Communism couldn't tolerate Islam, Judaism, or Christianity because they represent different and superior moral explanations of humanity.

They didn't give a sh*t about science either, unless it served their ideological ends. Remember Lysenko and determinism? Set Soviet science back by decades.

284 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:16:21am

re: #278 Dark_Falcon

Jesus fucking Christ.

Yes, atheism was one of the elements of Marxist-Leninist Communism. Christianity was one of the elements of Nazism. Does that mean that the Nazis were a 'Christian regime'? No, except in the most banal and stupid way possible.

They weren't oppressing religious people in the name of atheism. They were repressing them in the name of their particular forms of communism, which included atheism. And aside from places like the Khmer Rouge, they didn't even do it that well-- Communist Russia had freedom of worship in its constitution right up until the goddamn end.

Atheism was not the inspiration for communism. None of those people killing religious people was killing them because atheism.

If Marx had been a deist, or some other religion, then that would have been one of the major themes of Communist regimes.

Nepal is a communist-majority country with overwhelming Hindu religiousity.

Laos is communist and Buddhist/animist.

Vietnam is communist and Buddhist/animist.

Atheism is not integral to communism.

285 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:16:39am

re: #276 Decatur Deb

The uninformed, from: "Wuffo you jump out of airplanes?", "Wuffo you got a flash suppressor?"

Just so. The media ignorance that has lead to refer to semi-auto rifles as "automatic weapons", as was done by Chicago TV news anchor Carol Marin in a Chicago Tribune editorial earlier this year, an editorial so ignorant I was compelled to send a letter to the Tribune's editorial board over its uninformedness and blatant bias. That sort of bad reporting is something that seriously angers gun owners, since they rightly feel that the people writing harsh stories about guns do not actually understand guns and their uses. And that's one of the things that inhibits any sense of compromise on gun matters, as pro-gun people feel they will be misrepresented by the other side.

286 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:18:54am

re: #285 Dark_Falcon

It doesn't help that semi-automatic handguns are universally called 'automatics'.

287 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:19:23am

re: #286 Decatur Deb

All taxonomy sucks.

288 Randall Gross  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:19:34am

re: #274 Obdicut

Calling them atheist regimes is bullshit. The atheism was not the inspiration for the regime; it was incidental.

It's more than incidental, but not enough to label them "atheist" ahead of "Authoritian" or "Communist". Communist opposition to religion is summed up mostly by Marx and Lenin - it appears they considered it a retrograde or counterforce to full revolution:

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. - Marx

Lenin:

Religion is one of the forms of spiritual oppression which everywhere weighs down heavily upon the masses of the people, over burdened by their perpetual work for others, by want and isolation. Impotence of the exploited classes in their struggle against the exploiters just as inevitably gives rise to the belief in a better life after death as impotence of the savage in his battle with nature gives rise to belief in gods, devils, miracles, and the like. Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward. But those who live by the labour of others are taught by religion to practise charity while on earth, thus offering them a very cheap way of justifying their entire existence as exploiters and selling them at a moderate price tickets to well-being in heaven. Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man.

289 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:19:45am

re: #286 Decatur Deb

It doesn't help that semi-automatic handguns are universally called 'automatics'.

Newman.

290 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:19:45am

re: #286 Decatur Deb

It doesn't help that semi-automatic handguns are universally called 'automatics'.

Helps spread misinformation, muddy the waters and distract the discussion...

291 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:20:50am

re: #288 Randall Gross

It's more than incidental, but not enough to label them "atheist" ahead of "Authoritian" or "Communist". Communist opposition to religion is summed up mostly by Marx and Lenin - it appears they considered it a retrograde or counterforce to full revolution:

Lenin:

Yep. It's because the church was in competition for power.

292 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:21:41am

re: #288 Randall Gross

It's more than incidental, but not enough to label them "atheist" ahead of "Authoritian" or "Communist". Communist opposition to religion is summed up mostly by Marx and Lenin - it appears they considered it a retrograde or counterforce to full revolution:

Lenin:

Meth is the opium of the 'Real People'.

293 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:22:26am

So if the Dominionists took over America would that mean that whoever opposed them would be oogabooga atheists? Heck, that's why we have the Establishment Clause. It's to prevent religious whack jobs from taking over.

294 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:22:41am

re: #290 Sol Berdinowitz

Helps spread misinformation, muddy the waters and distract the discussion...

Just an historical accident, because it's so old and so common.

295 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:23:18am

re: #288 Randall Gross

It's 'incidental' in that there are places that are indisputably communist-- like Vietnam and Laos-- with large amounts of religion.

I'm glad you put the full text there, because it shows the nuance of Marxist-Lennist thought on religion a lot better than is often put. By 'opium of the masses', many people think Marx is referring to religion as something used by authorities to placate the proletariat. Instead, he is showing it as the 'sigh of the oppressed people against an unjust world'. Is is not a hostility to religion per se, it is a hostility to religion as a panacea, a sop, in place of real relief of oppression.

296 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:23:26am

re: #291 Gus

Yep. It's because the church was in competition for power.

And more often than not in cahoots with the government they were trying to overthrow or had just overthrown.

297 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:26:35am

re: #291 Gus

Yep. It's because the church was in competition for power.

It's somewhat more complicated than that; it's more that they saw religion as a symptom, that people would-- hah-- tend to cling to it when the real world couldn't make them happy or meet their needs.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions.

In practicality, in the actual rule by regimes, some communist regimes saw religion as a competing power and attacked it, sporadically in the USSR, systematically in China and Cuba-- but other places co-opted it, like Vietnam. Some of the communist parties in South and Central America are anti-clerical, seeing the Catholic church as an agent of repression, while others are 'social justice' Catholics, seeing the communism that's at the heart of Christian theology as supportive of communism.

298 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:26:35am

re: #296 Sol Berdinowitz

And more often than not in cahoots with the government they were trying to overthrow or had just overthrown.

Russia may soften religion law over Putin concerns

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian lawmakers are reworking a draft law introducing prison terms for religious offences after signs that Vladimir Putin is concerned it could undermine the delicate balance between the country's many religions.

The president's party proposed the law after two members of the Pussy Riot punk band were jailed for two years over a protest in a cathedral against Putin's increasingly close ties with the Russian Orthodox Church.

Putin has trod a thin line between celebrating a secular state of many religions and promoting the Russian Orthodox Church since rising to power in 2000, but has leaned more on the Orthodox Church for support since starting his third term as president in May following protests against his rule...

The Russian Orthodox Church is an enemy of freedom.

299 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:26:48am

re: #289 Gus

Newman.

So we've got a failure to communicate?

300 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:27:58am

Off to get a Christmas tree--we're having the kids' godless festival of redistribution early this year.

301 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:28:18am

re: #297 Obdicut

It's somewhat more complicated than that; it's more that they saw religion as a symptom, that people would-- hah-- tend to cling to it when the real world couldn't make them happy or meet their needs.

In practicality, in the actual rule by regimes, some communist regimes saw religion as a competing power and attacked it, sporadically in the USSR, systematically in China and Cuba-- but other places co-opted it, like Vietnam. Some of the communist parties in South and Central America are anti-clerical, seeing the Catholic church as an agent of repression, while others are 'social justice' Catholics, seeing the communism that's at the heart of Christian theology as supportive of communism.

Yeah, those were their global aspirations. But in practical terms it was the Orthodox Church and not Southern Baptists from the state of Mississippi. :D

302 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:28:24am

And, to give a hat-tip to Marx, much of the actual anti-clerical horrors in the past-- far fewer than clerical horrors, of course-- are obviously class warfare. The attack against the clergy in the French Revolution was spearheaded by junior members of the clergy, who had been frustrated in advancement by the corrupt system.

303 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:32:23am

re: #302 Obdicut

And, to give a hat-tip to Marx, much of the actual anti-clerical horrors in the past-- far fewer than clerical horrors, of course-- are obviously class warfare. The attack against the clergy in the French Revolution was spearheaded by junior members of the clergy, who had been frustrated in advancement by the corrupt system.

Thanks for pointing out that the termd "religion" is pretty broad and ambiguous: do we mean the leaders of the established Church, do we mean junior members of the clergy, or do we mean the system of belief as practiced by the masses?

Too easy to twist the terminology to fit whatever point you want to get across.

304 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:33:53am

God, I hate trying to shop for my mother. My old man's easy, usually something electronic that's a matter of just figuring out what he needs now or what would go good with what I've bought him in the past. But my mother...why are women so hard to shop for?

305 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:34:19am

Gulp.

306 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:38:56am

re: #305 Gus

[Embedded content]

Gulp.

...

...In the library, three faculty members heard the noises and hustled about 15 students toward a storage closet in the library, which was filled with computer servers. “Hold hands. Be quiet,” one teacher told the kids. One child wondered if pots and pans were clanging. Another thought he heard firecrackers. Another worried an animal was coming to the door.

They were children in a place built for children, and the teachers didn’t know how to answer them. They told them to close their eyes and to keep quiet. They helped move an old bookshelf in front of the door to act as a makeshift barricade. They wondered: How do you explain unimaginable horror to the most innocent?

“It’s a drill,” said a library clerk named Mary Anne Jacobs...

307 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:41:07am

re: #306 Gus

No more excerpts please, Gus. I don't want to read that, too painful.

308 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:43:42am

re: #307 Dark_Falcon

No more excerpts please, Gus. I don't want to read that, too painful.

Ditto. There are enough places to read about that if I want to...

309 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:46:23am

I am not afraid.

310 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:48:24am

Think I'm start to run into one of the reasons why nothing gets done after every mass shooting, namely I've reached the end of my patience for arguing with gun cultists and their obsessive need to believe that the answer to gun violence is simply more guns. As if when everyone is armed, nobody will want too shoot for fear of being shot. As if MAD should be a daily way of life.

311 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:50:52am

re: #310 Targetpractice

Think I'm start to run into one of the reasons why nothing gets done after every mass shooting, namely I've reached the end of my patience for arguing with gun cultists and their obsessive need to believe that the answer to gun violence is simply more guns. As if when everyone is armed, nobody will want too shoot for fear of being shot. As if MAD should be a daily way of life.

I'll say it again: any maniac can wreak havoc with a gun.

To defend yourself with a gun, you need training and a certain ambout of nerve.

To defend other people - especially in a public place - you need extensive training, skills, calm nerves and a solid sense of judgement.

Guns don't protect people - laws do!

312 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:54:48am

re: #310 Targetpractice

Think I'm start to run into one of the reasons why nothing gets done after every mass shooting, namely I've reached the end of my patience for arguing with gun cultists and their obsessive need to believe that the answer to gun violence is simply more guns. As if when everyone is armed, nobody will want too shoot for fear of being shot. As if MAD should be a daily way of life.

We have our very own arms race. I'm personally not worried about being gunned down nor am I armed.

313 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:56:39am

But anyway. I don't see any bipartisanship here anytime soon. Seems like the Democrats are intent on blaming Republicans and Republicans are intent on blaming Democrats. SNAFU.

314 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:58:18am

Twitter's pretty goofy this morning. Lots of subtle outrage. Liberals getting mad at other liberals who might be critical of Obama. It's weird.

315 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 7:59:40am

re: #311 Sol Berdinowitz

I'll say it again: any maniac can wreak havoc with a gun.

To defend yourself with a gun, you need training and a certain ambout of nerve.

To defend other people - especially in a public place - you need extensive training, skills, calm nerves and a solid sense of judgement.

Guns don't protect people - laws do!

There are other approaches--the design standard for new Army day care centers requires direct exit from each classroom to the exterior. Drills and procedures are set to attain 100% evacuation in 1 minute. Other engineering answers will help, but no one approach is going to work. A concerted effort, addressing guns, mental health and risk management could reduce the frequency and body count.

That's all that is going to happen within the limits of our culture, biology and politics.

316 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:00:48am

re: #315 Decatur Deb

There are other approaches--the design standard for new Army day care centers requires direct exit from each classroom to the exterior. Drills and procedures are set to attain 100% evacuation in 1 minute. Other engineering answers will help, but no one approach is going to work. A concerted effort, addressing guns, mental health and risk management could reduce the frequency and body count.

That's all that is going to happen within the limits of our culture, biology and politics.

The expansion of fortress America continues apace.

317 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:00:49am

re: #314 Gus

Twitter's pretty goofy this morning. Lots of subtle outrage. Liberals getting mad at other liberals who might be critical of Obama. It's weird.

I've seen this movie before with 2nd termers

318 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:00:56am

re: #311 Sol Berdinowitz

I'll say it again: any maniac can wreak havoc with a gun.

To defend yourself with a gun, you need training and a certain ambout of nerve.

To defend other people - especially in a public place - you need extensive training, skills, calm nerves and a solid sense of judgement.

Guns don't protect people - laws do!

In a lot of ways, I think it continues to boil down to what I terms "Red Dawn syndrome," that obsessive need to believe that they're preparing for some future war with a tyrannical government. Because without it, then their "need" for a gun disappears. Hunting for most Americans is a luxury, not a necessity. Home-defense does not require high-powered rifles or hand cannons. And self-defense is pointless if don't have the nerve to shoot another human being.

319 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:03:27am

re: #310 Targetpractice

Think I'm start to run into one of the reasons why nothing gets done after every mass shooting, namely I've reached the end of my patience for arguing with gun cultists and their obsessive need to believe that the answer to gun violence is simply more guns. As if when everyone is armed, nobody will want too shoot for fear of being shot. As if MAD should be a daily way of life.

It is a collective delusion of Americans. The truly deranged are those who believe that in every other place on Earth, removing guns has somehow made peaceful nations into killing grounds, and that guns in every hand will somehow make everyone safer. But even those that don't still cling to the fantasy that 'law-abiding' gun owners will be able to protect themselves and others, presumably by outshooting all the bad guys.

Nancy Lanza had all the guns she could ever want. She trained with them, used them regularly, and no doubt after every fresh tragedy she and the rest of the folks at her gun range congratulated themselves on being 'responsible, law-abiding' gun owners who got their guns legally and used them for the 'right' reasons. All the guns she could want, and she couldn't protect herself in her own home. And that fantasy world has now had very real consequences for everyone else.

And still, Americans insist on protecting their fantasies over the lives of their neighbours and children.

320 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:04:01am

re: #315 Decatur Deb

There are other approaches--the design standard for new Army day care centers requires direct exit from each classroom to the exterior. Drills and procedures are set to attain 100% evacuation in 1 minute. Other engineering answers will help, but no one approach is going to work. A concerted effort, addressing guns, mental health and risk management could reduce the frequency and body count.

That's all that is going to happen within the limits of our culture, biology and politics.

And that could be an offered "solution" to the problem, designing new schools and modifying old ones to allow either faster evacuation or greater protection. But both options are going to be costly, and in some districts the proposal to build new schools to handle crowded schools is like pulling teeth.

Hell, let's be honest, any solution to such shootings is going to come with a cost, either in material wealth or in our rights. And that, more than anything else, is why we continue to get nowhere on addressing such shootings, because we demand change, then balk when the bill comes due.

321 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:04:49am

re: #316 Gus

The expansion of fortress America continues apace.

We knew there were problems when McVeigh blew up the federal day care center 15 years ago. Most of the design changes were focused on accidental fires and such, of course.

322 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:05:23am

re: #317 sattv4u2

I've seen this movie before with 2nd termers

They get all worked up. Say one thing critical about Obama and suddenly it's like "IF DEMOCRATS LOSE IN 2014 IT'LL BE YOUR FAULT FOR NOT SUPPORTING OBAMA!!11TY" Funny, that doesn't seem democratic at all. So if I'm a liberal I get to choose only Democrats and reject Republicans (obviously) but I have to keep my mouth shut if I ever disagree with Obama.

323 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:06:59am

re: #322 Gus

They get all worked up. Say one thing critical about Obama and suddenly it's like "IF DEMOCRATS LOSE IN 2014 IT'LL BE YOUR FAULT FOR NOT SUPPORTING OBAMA!!11TY" Funny, that doesn't seem democratic at all. So if I'm a liberal I get to choose only Democrats and reject Republicans (obviously) but I have to keep my mouth shut if I ever disagree with Obama.

I'm all for disagreeing with Obama, choosing not to vocally support him. But the whole "punishing" bullshit in '10 gave us the political headache we've lived with for the past two years.

324 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:07:43am

re: #321 Decatur Deb

We knew there were problems when McVeigh blew up the federal day care center 15 years ago. Most of the design changes were focused on accidental fires and such, of course.

I know. It makes sense design wise. Just seems odd that we'd be designing classrooms using the possibility of spree killers as a design criteria.

325 iossarian  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:08:43am

re: #319 Renaissance_Man

Anyone who thinks owning a gun makes you safer, in the face of all the available evidence both from the US and abroad, is a fucking moron.

326 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:09:03am

re: #323 Targetpractice

I'm all for disagreeing with Obama, choosing not to vocally support him. But the whole "punishing" bullshit in '10 gave us the political headache we've lived with for the past two years.

2010 was the result of people sitting their lazy asses at home. The majority of Democrats are not wonks and in fact a good number of them don't even know that Joe Biden is the vice president. It wasn't because of people reading Twitter and blogs. The majority of people don't read either.

327 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:09:06am

re: #324 Gus

I know. It makes sense design wise. Just seems odd that we'd be designing classrooms using the possibility of spree killers as a design criteria.

Welcome to self-awareness.

328 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:09:22am

re: #324 Gus

I know. It makes sense design wise. Just seems odd that we'd be designing classrooms using the possibility of spree killers as a design criteria.

If I had to guess, I'd say insurance companies had a hand in it. Finding ways to get out of paying by arguing that security/safety measures were "inadequate."

329 iossarian  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:10:49am

re: #324 Gus

I know. It makes sense design wise. Just seems odd that we'd be designing classrooms using the possibility of spree killers as a design criteria.

Architecture courses in US universities must be a hoot.

"Now, remember you always have to factor in the alcove to hide in while you trade fire with your next-door neighbors."

330 iossarian  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:14:58am

Bit of a drive-by for me today. This whole gun disaster thing is just another nail in the coffin of me staying in the US for the long term though.

What's the point? There are plenty of other nice places to live, which don't involve the possibility of getting executed by Rambo as you quietly go about your business.

331 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:17:05am

re: #326 Gus

2010 was the result of people sitting their lazy asses at home. The majority of Democrats are not wonks and in fact a good number of them don't even know that Joe Biden is the vice president. It wasn't because of people reading Twitter and blogs. The majority of people don't read either.

Mid term elections for the party "in power" are always dicey for them

The dems lost the 1994 mid term elections

The repubs got by in 2002 due mostly to Bush's (still) popularity following 9/11 but they lost in 2006

332 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:17:22am

re: #330 iossarian

Bit of a drive-by for me today. This whole gun disaster thing is just another nail in the coffin of me staying in the US for the long term though.

What's the point? There are plenty of other nice places to live, which don't involve the possibility of getting executed by Rambo as you quietly go about your business.

But what about the thrill of living in constant danger? The intrigue of trying to decide which redneck is carrying a howitzer in his jacket pocket or which punk has enough death wrapped under his coat to wipe out a whole crowd? The late night shootings where you wake up the next morning to find holes in the side of your house and wonder how you didn't hear anything?

The truly American experience.///

333 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:17:30am

BBL

334 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:18:28am

re: #330 iossarian

Yunno, as an expat living in Europe, I usually get homesick around the holidays.

But this whole event made me feel a lot less homesick. I have four school-age kids. I am a lot less worried about their safety over here.

335 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:20:26am

AWB will never pass the House.

336 iossarian  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:21:22am

re: #334 Sol Berdinowitz

Yunno, as an expat living in Europe, I usually get homesick around the holidays.

But this whole event made me feel a lot less homesick. I have four school-age kids. I am a lot less worried about their safety over here.

I'd be fine for homesickness - I've lived in enough places that I don't really think of one place as home anyway. Even if there was such a place, it probably wouldn't be America - I just don't share the majority values, especially on gun ownership but also on wealth distribution etc.

(And they are majority values, BTW. If the majority of people agreed that owning guns was stupid and dangerous, there would be laws against them, just as there are in sane countries.)

337 iossarian  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:21:41am

Anyway, got to run now...

338 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:23:01am

re: #332 Targetpractice

But what about the thrill of living in constant danger? The intrigue of trying to decide which redneck is carrying a howitzer in his jacket pocket or which punk has enough death wrapped under his coat to wipe out a whole crowd? The late night shootings where you wake up the next morning to find holes in the side of your house and wonder how you didn't hear anything?

The truly American experience.///

I did something once here in Germany that I would NEVER, EVER have attempted in the USA. Some idiot cut me off in traffic just to get to the red light in front of me.

I was actually in a good mood at the time, rockin' out to the jams on AFN, so I just started fumbling around in my glove box,shouting at the guy in the car ahead of me, and making moves and gestures as if I was going for a pistol in my glove box and loading a clip...mouthing things like "MUTHAFUCKAH, YO' ASS IS GRASS!!!" and the like.

The guy in the car ahead of me was sweating bullets and took off like a rocket when the light tuned.

Would never, ever do that in the 'States...

339 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:24:33am

re: #332 Targetpractice

But what about the thrill of living in constant danger? The intrigue of trying to decide which redneck is carrying a howitzer in his jacket pocket or which punk has enough death wrapped under his coat to wipe out a whole crowd? The late night shootings where you wake up the next morning to find holes in the side of your house and wonder how you didn't hear anything?

The truly American experience.///

Not especially American or frightening. A room in our house in Israel had 11-inch reinforced concrete walls, a gas-tight blast door, and a half-inch armor plate for the window. All our kids have been strapped into a Chinook at least once for an evacuation drill. In every case the measures were just a response to a very low likelihood of danger.

Really got to go for that Christmas tree now.

340 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:28:48am

re: #317 sattv4u2

I've seen this movie before with 2nd termers

But again, it overlooks the president's priorities, and of those the budget has to come first right now.

341 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:30:25am

re: #340 Dark_Falcon

But again, it overlooks the president's priorities, and of those the budget has to come first right now.

Yeah, I don't see much progress on that front in the next two years.

342 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:30:32am

re: #340 Dark_Falcon

But again, it overlooks the president's priorities, and of those the budget has to come first right now.

If the Bush tax cuts expire it will hurt the Democrats in 2014 because the American people will blame Obama.

343 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:31:34am

re: #338 Sol Berdinowitz

I did something once here in Germany that I would NEVER, EVER have attempted in the USA. Some idiot cut me off in traffic just to get to the red light in front of me.

I was actually in a good mood at the time, rockin' out to the jams on AFN, so I just started fumbling around in my glove box,shouting at the guy in the car ahead of me, and making moves and gestures as if I was going for a pistol in my glove box and loading a clip...mouthing things like "MUTHAFUCKAH, YO' ASS IS GRASS!!!" and the like.

The guy in the car ahead of me was sweating bullets and took off like a rocket when the light tuned.

Would never, ever do that in the 'States...

Glad you wouldn't. In many places that would get you shot or at least held at gunpoint till the police arrived, and the other guy wouldn't have committed a crime in doing so. But you would have committed a crime: You'd be charged with Menacing.

344 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:31:41am

re: #342 Gus

If the Bush tax cuts expire it will hurt the Democrats in 2014 because the American people will blame Obama.

You haven't really looked at the polls in recent weeks, have you?

345 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:32:08am

re: #344 Targetpractice

You haven't really looked at the polls in recent weeks, have you?

Which one?

346 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:34:38am

re: #345 Gus

Which one?

Every one I've seen says that a 50-60% majority is holding the GOP responsible for not getting anywhere in fiscal cliff talks, will hold them responsible if we go over the cliff, and think they're holding middle class tax cuts hostage to ensure cuts for the rich.

347 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:35:11am

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

Glad you wouldn't. In many places that would get you shot or at least held at gunpoint till the police arrived, and the other guy wouldn't have committed a crime in doing so. But you would have committed a crime: You'd be charged with Menacing.

I was just rocking out to Lynrd Skynrd "Gimme Three Steps" playing on AFN...At the time, I thought it was menacingly funny...would have been a lot more menacing and a lot less funny in America, but I would not have even attempted it there.

348 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:36:21am

re: #342 Gus

If the Bush tax cuts expire it will hurt the Democrats in 2014 because the American people will blame Obama.

Someohow the November elections gave me faith that the majority of people in the USA are not stupid enough to fall for GOP propaganda.

Just a matter of getting them out to vote again...

349 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:38:58am

re: #348 Sol Berdinowitz

Someohow the November elections gave me faith that the majority of people in the USA are not stupid enough to fall for GOP propaganda.

Just a matter of getting them out to vote again...

Sorry, but turnout in off year elections is much lower. Many of those 2008 and 2012 Obama voters won't show up. But I will. [evil grin]

350 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:41:14am

re: #349 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, but turnout in off year elections is much lower. Many of those 2008 and 2012 Obama voters won't show up. But I will. [evil grin]

Acting happy about fellow citizens not voting is wrong on so many levels it's hard to even start.

351 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:43:33am

The Sunday morning political talk shows have been vigorous debate on the shooting in CT. There has been wide debate points from both sides. I have been surprised at the agreements both sides expressed today. There is hope going forward I think. Bloomberg cracks up. Sometimes he says the dumbest things. I'm glad he is not my Mayor. He said on MTP that the power of the NRA is a myth and Congress need not worry about them..Really Mike?
what a load of crap.
generally most everybody agreed that all options need to be on the table..Mental health, regulations, enforcement, Assault weapons etc.

352 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:46:12am

Lots of teeth grinding on the internets this morning.

353 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:48:49am

re: #351 A Man for all Seasons

generally most everybody agreed that all options need to be on the table..Mental health, regulations, enforcement, Assault weapons etc.

Repeal of the 2nd Amendment, total disarmament of the American people, FEMA re-education camps, etc.

/

354 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:50:28am

re: #346 Targetpractice

Every one I've seen says that a 50-60% majority is holding the GOP responsible for not getting anywhere in fiscal cliff talks, will hold them responsible if we go over the cliff, and think they're holding middle class tax cuts hostage to ensure cuts for the rich.

Boner's getting flashbacks to the 95 shutdown even as the Democrats are panicing on memories of the 94 AWB.

355 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:52:53am

re: #351 A Man for all Seasons

The Sunday morning political talk shows have been vigorous debate on the shooting in CT. There has been wide debate points from both sides. I have been surprised at the agreements both sides expressed today. There is hope going forward I think. Bloomberg cracks up. Sometimes he says the dumbest things. I'm glad he is not my Mayor. He said on MTP that the power of the NRA is a myth and Congress need not worry about them..Really Mike?
what a load of crap.
generally most everybody agreed that all options need to be on the table..Mental health, regulations, enforcement, Assault weapons etc.

As far as I can tell all you need to do to a Bushmaster .223 and an AR-15 is remove the flash suppressor and pistol grip and it's no longer considered an assault weapon.

356 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:53:56am

re: #353 Sol Berdinowitz

Repeal of the 2nd Amendment, total disarmament of the American people, FEMA re-education camps, etc.

/

Repeal it? No.

Amend it so it reflects a time where indoor plumbing and men walking on the moon are realities? Yes.

357 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:55:02am

re: #351 A Man for all Seasons

The Sunday morning political talk shows have been vigorous debate on the shooting in CT. There has been wide debate points from both sides. I have been surprised at the agreements both sides expressed today. There is hope going forward I think. Bloomberg cracks up. Sometimes he says the dumbest things. I'm glad he is not my Mayor. He said on MTP that the power of the NRA is a myth and Congress need not worry about them..Really Mike?
what a load of crap.
generally most everybody agreed that all options need to be on the table..Mental health, regulations, enforcement, Assault weapons etc.

Of course they will. It's now part of the kabuki dance after every week's shooting - vague motherhood statements that everyone knows will go nowhere. And the reason is that Americans are now trained - Americans 'know' in their hearts, just as well as they know the Pledge of Allegiance, that 'something' has to be done, as long as everyone still gets to own guns.

358 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:55:53am

re: #356 Mattand

Repeal it? No.

Amend it so it reflects a time where indoor plumbing and men walking on the moon are realities? Yes.

that / was a sarc tag.

I am all for a strict interpretation of the 2nd Amendment as the Founding Fathers saw it: You should have the right to own a muzzle-loading musket and as much powder as you can fit in your horn.

//

359 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:56:35am

Hey all,

How is the day going?

360 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:57:59am

re: #357 Renaissance_Man

Americans 'know' in their hearts, just as well as they know the Pledge of Allegiance, that 'something' has to be done, as long as everyone still gets to own guns.

Non sarcasmically this time - I can accept the SCOTUS decision that gun ownership is an individual right not directly dependent on membership in a well regulated militia, but the well-regulated part does highly indicate that there should be some regulation of access to firepower.

361 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:59:09am

Moron

GOHMERT: Having been a judge and reviewed photographs of these horrific scenes and knowing that children have these defensive wounds, gun shots through their arms and hands as they try to protect themselves, and, hearing the heroic stories of the principal, lunging, trying to protect, Chris, I wish to God she had had an M-4 in her office, locked up so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out and she didn’t have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands and takes him out and takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids.

362 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:00:18am

re: #355 Gus

As far as I can tell all you need to do to a Bushmaster .223 and an AR-15 is remove the flash suppressor and pistol grip and it's no longer considered an assault weapon.

Yeah, I'm not really that thrilled with the idea of renewing the assault weapons ban. I don;t think it really solved anything the first time and this time probably won;t be much different but this is the kind of cosmetic token gestures politicians will use to appease the public to create the impression they're doing something.

364 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:01:41am

re: #361 Varek Raith

Moron

Besides the fact that an M4 is a military assault rifle whose auto-fire capability would make it illegal in the hands of any non-NFA licensed owner, let alone a school principal working in a gun-free zone? How about that he's suggesting that knows she'd have had no problem blowing this kid away without a second thought.

Not everybody has a Dirty Harry fetish, not everybody can bring themselves to shoot a human being like a paper target or clay pigeon.

365 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:02:21am

re: #358 Sol Berdinowitz

that / was a sarc tag.

I am all for a strict interpretation of the 2nd Amendment as the Founding Fathers saw it: You should have the right to own a muzzle-loading musket and as much powder as you can fit in your horn.

//

Did see the sarc tag. Also remember your muzzle-loader from yesterday; LOL'd then as I did now.

It's just that after Friday, I really think amending the 2nd Amendment is the way to go, however remote the chances of that happening are. If we can amend the Constitution to prevent the sale of human beings, in theory, dealing with guns should be a cakewalk.

After all, it's not like 20 six-year-olds just got massacred.

366 bratwurst  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:02:32am

re: #361 Varek Raith

Moron

The shooter's mom was unable to keep powerful weapons out of his hands, but Louie "Terror Babies" Gohmert is SURE that the principal would have no problem keeping an M-4 secure at all times.

367 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:02:37am

re: #363 Varek Raith

Man stands in mall parking lot, fires 50 shots in the air

WE NEED TO ARM PARKING LOTS!!!!111!!!ty

368 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:04:41am

re: #366 bratwurst

The shooter's mom was unable to keep powerful weapons out of his hands, but Louie "Terror Babies" Gohmert is SURE that the principal would have no problem keeping an M-4 secure at all times.

This is no longer just a RWNJ talking point: it has become an article of faith. These guys feel threatened and the only thing they know how to do is to come out swinging arguments like this one about their heads.

369 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:05:25am

Scrolling through the overnight comments. I see we have a citing of the strawman known as "Atheists have suspect/no morals".

Please have an early Xmas "Go fuck yourself" on me.

370 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:05:58am

re: #349 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, but turnout in off year elections is much lower. Many of those 2008 and 2012 Obama voters won't show up. But I will. [evil grin]

And 2012 could never have the turnout levels of 2008!
;)

371 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:06:30am

re: #368 Sol Berdinowitz

This is no longer just a RWNJ talking point: it has become an article of faith. These guys feel threatened and the only thing they know how to do is to come out swinging arguments like this one about their heads.

"Unga need more guns. Guns good. Guns kill enemies! Guns kill bad liberals!!"

//

372 bratwurst  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:06:46am

re: #370 Varek Raith

And 2012 could never have the non-white turnout levels of 2008!
;)

Fixed for DF and his friend.

373 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:07:54am

NRA: Guns don't kill, people do.

Sane people: Guns don't protect people, laws do.

374 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:08:07am

re: #359 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Hey all,

How is the day going?

re: #362 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I'm not really that thrilled with the idea of renewing the assault weapons ban. I don;t think it really solved anything the first time and this time probably won;t be much different but this is the kind of cosmetic token gestures politicians will use to appease the public to create the impression they're doing something.

Which is what was said about the first AWB. It would have to be reworded with more specifics this time around which essentially would mean a ban on semi-automatic weapons regardless of "2 or more" qualifiers. A standard 9mm semi-automatic with a handful of clips on a deranged person can still do a lot of damage. Then again so can an ordinary revolver. As far as I can tell the AWB would not have stopped Charles Whitman. Again though, none of this would pass the House.

375 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:11:12am

re: #369 Mattand

Scrolling through the overnight comments. I see we have a citing of the strawman known as "Atheists have suspect/no morals".

Please have an early Xmas "Go fuck yourself" on me.

Ok, I can play that stupid, nonsensical game too.
The Third Reich was a Christian Regime.
e_e

376 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:11:45am

PBS Frontline: How Criminals Get Guns

Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.

In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.

According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."

377 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:14:14am

So, because I'm an atheist, I have not morals, are a communists and a monster.
Good to know.

378 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:16:31am

re: #375 Varek Raith

Ok, I can play that stupid, nonsensical game too.
The Third Reich was a Christian Regime.
e_e

The Protestant Reformation leader, Martin Luther, laid the groundwork for German antisemitism which later would influence Hitler. To this day, Martin Luther is admired by many Protestants.

379 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:17:45am

re: #377 Varek Raith

So, because I'm an atheist, I have not morals, are a communists and a monster.
Good to know.

I mentioned this before, but I once had an active duty National Guardsman tell me I was what was wrong with America because I don't believe in God.

Nice to know that your fellow armed Americans in the military have your back.

380 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:19:16am

re: #379 Mattand

I mentioned this before, but I once had an active duty National Guardsman tell me I was what was wrong with America because I don't believe in God.

Nice to know that your fellow armed Americans in the military have your back.

Seems the theocrats have been infiltrating the military for sometime now. It's a problem.

381 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:19:53am

re: #377 Varek Raith

So, because I'm an atheist, I have not morals, are a communists and a monster.
Good to know.

Dude, there's some running around here that claim you're crazy & evil if you're religious.

Or inherently psychotic if you own a gun.

So welcome to the club. Try not to get your pants in too big a knot.

382 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:20:23am

re: #378 Gus

The Protestant Reformation leader, Martin Luther, laid the groundwork for German antisemitism which later would influence Hitler. To this day, Martin Luther is admired by many Protestants.

Heh. Especially Lutherans.

383 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:22:34am

Ind. Man With 47 Guns Arrested After School Threat

Authorities say an Indiana man who had 47 guns and ammunition in his home has been arrested after allegedly threatening to kill people at an elementary school near his home.

Cedar Lake police were called to the home of 60-year-old Von I. Meyer early Friday after he allegedly threatened to set his wife on fire. A police statement says Meyer also said he would enter Jane Ball Elementary School and "kill as many people as he could."

Authorities found 47 guns and ammunition worth over $100,000.

384 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:24:26am

re: #383 Killgore Trout

I'm going to be banally amused if they got his name wrong; his last name is Meyer, and naming a kid "Von" would be like naming a kid "From".

385 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:24:42am

re: #383 Killgore Trout

Ind. Man With 47 Guns Arrested After School Threat

Authorities found 47 guns and ammunition worth over $100,000.

Exactly what the Founding Fathers had in mind with a "well regulated militia"

386 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:25:56am

re: #385 Sol Berdinowitz

Authorities found 47 guns and ammunition worth over $100,000.

Exactly what the Founding Fathers had in mind with a "well regulated militia"

Unless they were antique "collector" types?

I would understand if they were shoes.

387 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:26:01am

re: #384 Obdicut

I'm going to be banally amused if they got his name wrong; his last name is Meyer, and naming a kid "Von" would be like naming a kid "From".

Could be short for "Levon".

Called his child Jesus, cause he liked the name...

388 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:26:22am

re: #383 Killgore Trout

Ind. Man With 47 Guns Arrested After School Threat

$20 says he had a name for each and every one of them

389 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:26:37am

re: #386 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Unless they were antique "collector" types?

I would understand if they were shoes.

This man was a well organized platoon for chrissakes.

390 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:26:43am

re: #385 Sol Berdinowitz

Authorities found 47 guns and ammunition worth over $100,000.

Exactly what the Founding Fathers had in mind with a "well regulated militia"

I don't think the amount of guns that one owns is an indicator. People typically only have one trigger finger.

391 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:26:53am

re: #386 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Unless they were antique "collector" types?

I would understand if they were shoes.

Is that you, Mrs Marcos??

392 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:27:14am

"I don't thinking..." Nice.

393 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:27:35am

re: #381 William Barnett-Lewis

Dude, there's some running around here that claim you're crazy & evil if you're religious.

Or inherently psychotic if you own a gun.

So welcome to the club. Try not to get your pants in too big a knot.

Who and where were those things said?

394 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:28:20am

re: #390 Gus

I don't thinking the amount of guns that one owns is an indicator. People typically only have one trigger finger.

Most people only have one hand?

I did not know that!!
Image: 2012010311393561.jpg


//

395 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:28:30am

re: #390 Gus

I don't think the amount of guns that one owns is an indicator. People typically only have one trigger finger.

Tell me why any single sane, normal person needs $100K worth of ammo. Please.

I am not advocating confiscation, but I would like to hear one reasonable argument defending it.

396 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:29:30am

re: #377 Varek Raith

So, because I'm an atheist, I have not morals, are a communists and a monster.
Good to know.

At least you're self aware!!

////

397 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:29:39am

re: #394 sattv4u2

Most people only have one hand?

I did not know that!!
Image: 2012010311393561.jpg

//

OK, two fingers but not 47 fingers.

398 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:30:51am

re: #255 Gus

Hey. Anyone know if a Bushmaster .223 would classify as an assault weapon?

The real definition of "assault rifle", or the popular one?

Real assault rifles are medium-caliber, select fire - meaning, they can fire like a machine gun from the movies. For example, the M4 and later model M16s have a selector switch which sets the action to fire 3 rounds per trigger squeeze instead of just 1 (older models had a no-limit full-auto setting, but the military phased that out in the 80s) . "Assault rifle" *generally* means a smaller, lighter, shorter-ranged, fully automatic-capable (this is important) and more physically manageable weapon suitable for fast-moving combat, especially when the combatants are the smaller, browner sorts of people you'd find participating in various Cold War proxy conflicts.

Assault rifles are conventionally smaller than things like the M1 Garand, M-14, FN FAL, etc. which fire much bigger .30-cal rounds. The older, bigger guns are typically categorized as "battle rifles", referring back to their use in 20th century European warfare.

"Assault weapon" is the popular/inaccurate, and also kind of stupid term (really is there a weapon you DON'T assault somebody with?), for an assault rifle look-alike that fires semi-auto (1 shot per trigger pull, or "self-loading") only. "Bushmaster .223" in this case would likely mean a semi-automatic clone of the M16. It looks the same, has ~75% parts commonality, takes the same magazines, fires the same round, but does not function the same for the operator. It's not a machine gun, and operationally it's no different from some modern hunting rifles, except it has a provision to take as much ammunition as you want to hang from it.

Edit: The "assault weapon" law of the Clinton era basically regulated the cosmetic military-designed "evil features" of these clones like pistol grips, collapsible or folding stocks, and bayonet lugs, which have absolutely nothing to do with the rifle's basic mechanical function. The only part of that law that made any sense at all was the magazine capacity restriction, which if I remember right was 15 rounds. California had stricter stuff in place which also didn't make any real difference at all, except spur the accessories industry to create thumbhole stocks and CA-specific models to circumvent the evil feature count. And I also found out that this law didn't apply to anybody who had ever been a LEO... I sold a *very* evil .308 FAL clone to an LAPD officer a few years ago without any trouble.

Bushmaster is also one of a plethora of manufacturers of AR-series clones. There are at least a couple of dozen companies that make and sell AR-type rifles (Colt, Bushmaster, Sabre Defence, Bravo Company, LMT etc. etc.) and many many more that make components. Many of these companies sell to the military as well as civilians, since there's a big crossover market of ex-military folks who work as first responders, security, etc. and since we've been fighting various shitty little wars in shitty little places for the last ten years, there's been a boom in making quality enhancements for the AR platform that really do help our people in the field.

I think the crazies have moved over to the ARs for their spree killings because AK clones are shitty and harder to come by. :P Our TV-based violence fantasies have moved over to the AR platform, too, since most shows now are set in the U.S. in some apocalyptic scenario. AK-toting bad guys are seen overseas, not here.

399 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:31:18am

re: #397 Gus

OK, two fingers but not 47 fingers.

Some are trying too

Image: 6fingers.jpg

400 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:32:13am
401 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:33:05am

re: #395 Sol Berdinowitz

Tell me why any single sane, normal person needs $100K worth of ammo. Please.

I am not advocating confiscation, but I would like to hear one reasonable argument defending it.

It said guns AND ammo so I'm assuming the higher value on guns. I'll assume that someone amassing large quantities of ammo might be an indicator. However, not on gun ownership alone.

402 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:33:25am

re: #400 Varek Raith

Gun owners like this are crazy.

Give me one good reason why shit like this should be allowed or tolerated, much less celebrated as "rugged individualism".

403 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:34:07am

re: #402 Sol Berdinowitz

Give me one good reason shit like this should be allowed or tolerated, much less celebrated as "rugged individualism".

Tyrannical government!!!

404 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:34:13am

re: #386 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Unless they were antique "collector" types?

I would understand if they were shoes.

Guns are shoes for (some) men.

Sometimes we can even admit it.

405 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:35:57am

Military Proselytizing from 2010

Anderson Cooper from 2008

Christian Science Monitor from 2007

oh, and this is nice:

Pentagon welcomes 'Christian fundamentalist scam-artist' as guest speaker at prayer breakfast

More interesting headlines from the Military Religious Freedom Foundation

406 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:36:04am

re: #351 A Man for all Seasons

The Sunday morning political talk shows have been vigorous debate on the shooting in CT. There has been wide debate points from both sides. I have been surprised at the agreements both sides expressed today. There is hope going forward I think. Bloomberg cracks up. Sometimes he says the dumbest things. I'm glad he is not my Mayor. He said on MTP that the power of the NRA is a myth and Congress need not worry about them..Really Mike?
what a load of crap.
generally most everybody agreed that all options need to be on the table..Mental health, regulations, enforcement, Assault weapons etc.

The risk we take if we go whole hog after guns and leave the mental health system as it is-Another massacre by other means. IED designs are out there. Tom McVeigh killed with a rental truck and fertilizer. Brevik made a bomb. While a car has not been used by itself, we know car bombs are as deadly as any gun or worse. And a speeding suicide car into a crowd can certainly happen. It has happened by accident.

Please no one take this as a call to look away from enforcing gun laws we have and adding them where they can be effective. There is something mental that separates all the people who have guns, or fertilizer, or are licensed to use real high explosives for mining and excavation from those that will build or grab what they can and kill. A flight officer may have crashed his plane for suicide. Let's pleas accelerate efforts to sort out killers and suicidal people for help.

407 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:36:59am

re: #393 Varek Raith

Who and where were those things said?

Anyone?

408 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:37:31am

re: #377 Varek Raith

So, because I'm an atheist, I have not morals, are a communists and a monster.
Good to know.

Some of the most inspirational people that I have met in my life are moral and kind with no religious background. A good person is a good person.
I don't judge people by what church they may or may not attend or profess the Faith of spirituality on a meter.
Judge not lest you be judged

409 TedStriker  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:37:58am

re: #408 A Man for all Seasons

Some of the most inspirational people that I have met in my life are moral and kind with no religious background. A good person is a good person.
I don't judge people by what church they may or may not attend or profess the Faith of spirituality on a meter.
Judge not lest you be judged

Tru dat...

410 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:38:07am

re: #404 Pawn of the Oppressor

Guns are shoes for (some) men.

Sometimes we can even admit it.

yeah, but shoes make sense!!!

:0

411 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:38:35am

re: #410 Holidays are Family Fun Time

yeah, but shoes make sense!!!

:0

Shoes with guns on them.

412 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:38:54am

re: #406 Political Atheist

The risk we take if we go whole hog after guns and leave the mental health system as it is

I don't get it. This kid came from a wealthy family. Where is the idea that he was cut off from mental health care coming from?

413 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:39:13am

re: #408 A Man for all Seasons

Some of the most inspirational people that I have met in my life are moral and kind with no religious background. A good person is a good person.
I don't judge people by what church they may or may not attend or profess the Faith of spirituality on a meter.
Judge not lest you be judged

I completely agree.
I'm just annoyed this morning.

414 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:40:23am

re: #408 A Man for all Seasons

A good person is a good person
Zaccly

I've known asshole priests, I've known kind and generous and thoughtful millionaires
I've known jerks on the left, right and center. I've know wonderful people on the left, right and center

415 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:40:46am

re: #410 Holidays are Family Fun Time

yeah, but shoes make sense!!!

:0

And since when do men make sense? We like to plan and prepare for stuff that will seemingly never happen. It's an evolutionary feature. Please understand that I'm explaining, not excusing...

416 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:41:05am

re: #413 Varek Raith

I completely agree.
I'm just annoyed this morning.

Have some bran!!

417 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:41:17am

re: #412 Obdicut

I don't get it. This kid came from a wealthy family. Where is the idea that he was cut off from mental health care coming from?

James Holmes had access to mental health care.

418 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:41:38am

re: #416 sattv4u2

Have some bran!!

No.
Coffee.

419 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:42:07am

re: #416 sattv4u2

Have some bran!!

Zombie breakfast?

420 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:42:15am

re: #412 Obdicut

I don't get it. This kid came from a wealthy family. Where is the idea that he was cut off from mental health care coming from?

doesn't mean he had good insurance. Or family members who could adequately advocate for him. A month of in-house treatment on a 50/50 plan is alot of money even if you are affluent. Meds alone can run hundreds a month without good insurance. It all adds up.

421 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:42:17am

re: #418 Varek Raith

No.
Coffee.

Friends mother used to have coffee (hot) in her bran flakes for breakfast!!

422 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:42:50am

re: #421 sattv4u2

Friends mother used to have coffee (hot) in her bran flakes for breakfast!!

Could work.
I mean, it's coffee.

423 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:43:03am

re: #415 Pawn of the Oppressor

And since when do men make sense? We like to plan and prepare for stuff that will seemingly never happen. It's an evolutionary feature. Please understand that I'm explaining, not excusing...

You actually put that in writing. I am impress!

:0

424 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:43:14am

Oh bran, I thought you said "brain"...

425 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:43:49am

re: #424 Sol Berdinowitz

Oh bran, I thought you said "brain"...

She ate brains for breakfast?

426 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:44:02am

Guns make it easier to kill other people. that is what they are designed for. They are not comparable to cars, or fertilizer bombs, or anything else like that. They are created so that it's very easy for the person using them to kill something else, or at least blow a large hole in it.

Fertilizer is designed to be fertilizer. A person can take it and use it to kill other people, but it takes quite a bit of effort and we can often catch people by tracking unusual purchases that would show they were trying to make an ampho bomb.

Cars are designed to get people from point A to point B. Nobody has ever killed 26 people by running them over with their car.

It is really important not to make false analogies in this.

427 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:44:08am

re: #423 Holidays are Family Fun Time

You actually put that in writing. I am impress!

:0

I can admit I sometimes don't make sense.
Swords>Guns

428 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:44:29am

re: #424 Sol Berdinowitz

Oh bran, I thought you said "brain"...

Delicious, if prepared properly!

Image: calf-brains.jpg

429 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:45:06am

re: #428 sattv4u2

re: #424 Sol Berdinowitz

Delicious, if prepared properly!

Image: calf-brains.jpg

I'd rather eat spam.

430 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:45:40am

re: #429 Varek Raith

I'd rather eat spam.

howdya think they MAKE the Spam!!!

/

431 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:45:43am

re: #429 Varek Raith

I'd rather eat spam.

same difference...

432 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:45:45am

re: #428 sattv4u2

re: #424 Sol Berdinowitz

Delicious, if prepared properly!

Image: calf-brains.jpg

Having too many flashbacks to Temple of Doom now.

433 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:45:57am

re: #420 Holidays are Family Fun Time

doesn't mean he had good insurance. Or family members who could adequately advocate for him. A month of in-house treatment on a 50/50 plan is alot of money even if you are affluent. Meds alone can run hundreds a month without good insurance. It all adds up.

It's possible, but it doesn't seem likely.

And anyway, you can't treat people who are unwilling. If someone doesn't want to go see a psychiatrist, you can't make them. We don't want to go down that road. And Holmes saw a psychiatrist, as Gus pointed out, but psychiatrists, not being wizards, can't predict this sort of stuff with any great degree of accuracy.

434 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:46:07am

Say you have access to mental health care. How are you going to get some misanthropic, anti-social, 20 something guy with violent fantasies and a small gun collection into therapy? Therapy which sometimes require years of sessions with no valid fixes at times. It's not like you would get someone like this, put him into this nebulous "access to mental health care program" and fix him like magic.

435 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:46:33am

re: #412 Obdicut

I don't get it. This kid came from a wealthy family. Where is the idea that he was cut off from mental health care coming from?

Sorry, I may be a bit lost. Just started reading through. Are we limiting what we call for to what would have made a difference in this case only, or are broader approaches and suggestions also on the table?

436 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:46:36am

re: #432 Targetpractice

Having too many flashbacks to Temple of Doom now.

Seriously, they're actually good. Creamy texture, mild "meat" taste

437 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:47:02am

re: #436 sattv4u2

Seriously, they're actually good. Creamy texture, mild "meat" taste

Stop it.
Just stop.
:P

438 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:47:24am

You'd be looking at large swaths of involuntary commitment because that's what it would take.

439 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:47:42am

re: #438 Gus

You'd be looking at large swaths of involuntary commitment because that's what it would take.

Bingo!

440 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:47:54am

re: #437 Varek Raith

Stop it.
Just stop.
:P

Image: calf_brains.jpg

441 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:48:24am

re: #435 Political Atheist

Sorry, I may be a bit lost. Just started reading through. Are we limiting what we call for to what would have made a difference in this case only, or are broader approaches and suggestions also on the table?

Broader approaches are fine. Increased access to mental health is still not going to be a a magic wand. I'm all for increased funding for mental health services, but mental health requires an honest patient dealing with a competent therapist. It's not a solution to gun violence.

442 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:48:51am

re: #440 sattv4u2

Image: calf_brains.jpg

Why do I suspect you had that ready for just such an occasion?

443 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:49:29am

re: #439 Varek Raith

Bingo!

A lot of young people would be sent to state mental hospitals. Many of which would likely never have been spree killers in the first place. We'd just have to go with a suspicion. "Johnny seems like he might kill a bunch of people some day." Boom, off to the mental hospital he goes. What kind of society would that be? Innocent people would fall under this trap.

444 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:49:32am

re: #438 Gus

You'd be looking at large swaths of involuntary commitment because that's what it would take.

Or, if we're just denying guns to people without committing them-- again, this guy shot his mom with her own guns.

That is one of the part I think that gun-rights advocates in general are not dealing with well in this. They say that the principal should have had a gun and then it would have been okay. The mom had guns, and yet it wasn't okay: she was shot with her own guns.

445 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:49:39am

re: #442 Varek Raith

Why do I suspect you had that ready for just such an occasion?

Truth be told, I JUST found it (under googled images for calf brains)

446 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:51:32am

re: #444 Obdicut

The mom had guns, and yet it wasn't okay: she was shot with her own guns.

But SHE didn't shoot anyone with her own guns(that we're aware of)

As you stated yesterday, gun lockers/ safes are a step in the right direction

447 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:51:59am

re: #441 Obdicut

Broader approaches are fine. Increased access to mental health is still not going to be a a magic wand. I'm all for increased funding for mental health services, but mental health requires an honest patient dealing with a competent therapist. It's not a solution to gun violence.

No silver bullet here, never really is in the aftermath of such horrors.

448 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:52:38am

re: #426 Obdicut

If nobody died from those things used deliberately you would be right. The people are just as dead in Oklahoma city.

So much for false.

The premise we should not try to better diagnose killers and suicidal people is foolish.

449 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:53:33am

re: #446 sattv4u2

The mom had guns, and yet it wasn't okay: she was shot with her own guns.

But SHE didn't shoot anyone with her own guns(that we're aware of)

As you stated yesterday, gun lockers/ safes are a step in the right direction

All they do is keep everybody who doesn't know the code or where the keys are kept from getting in, something that makes them piss-poor at keeping mentally ill persons with knowledge of both from getting to weapons of mass destruction. And they also take the bite out of the "self-defense" argument for owning a gun when you have to take time during a home invasion to get the safe open.

450 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:53:49am

re: #419 Sol Berdinowitz

Zombie breakfast?

And one for you

[Link: www.lostateminor.com...]

451 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:53:53am

A multi-angle approach is needed. And it will be long-range and slow to implement for obvious reasons.

Better teaching of gun safety and handling; possibly beyond a licensing requirement and making it part of the standard elementary education system. Teach that guns are a *tool* and start the process of removing the gun as a mythic object. Someone pointed out that if you teach cleaning and maintenance and make handling guns a *chore* it can become a turnoff to be attracted to them.

Better handling of mental health issues and treatment. Again, something that is rooted in education is getting myths debunked. Mental illness is an illness and social issue. This is aimed at identifying and helping these people before they reach the point where they decide that they want to commit suicide and take a bunch of other people with them.

I'm not sure how to address numbers and types of guns. Improvements in the processes involving licensing and changes of ownership at the very least. The current laws might be sufficient, but enforcement would need to be tightened and properly funded. And, at a minimum, make illegal sales by the holder of a FFL something that have very severe penalties.

452 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:54:18am

re: #444 Obdicut

Or, if we're just denying guns to people without committing them-- again, this guy shot his mom with her own guns.

That is one of the part I think that gun-rights advocates in general are not dealing with well in this. They say that the principal should have had a gun and then it would have been okay. The mom had guns, and yet it wasn't okay: she was shot with her own guns.

Yeah. I find it hard to see some 20 year old guy who hates people and wants to kill, kill, kill thinking to himself, "I better get some help." It just doesn't happen. If it does it's in rare cases. In the case of James Holmes he was under the care of a psychiatrist and he went on to kill 12 people in Aurora. It's just not that simple.

453 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:54:22am

re: #441 Obdicut

Broader. Research. Not talking more therapy here. What turns a person into a mass killer?

454 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:54:28am

re: #447 Targetpractice

No silver bullet here, never really is in the aftermath of such horrors.

The only piece of data that's indisputably true is that when you have fewer guns, you have less gun violence. This isn't the only truth, since Switzerland has large amounts of guns and low gun violence, but that's because they also have very, very, very restrictive gun regulations. So, effectively, they have fewer guns just wandering around.

The problem with that is a solution of 'get rid of the guns' is not going to be even physically possible, let along politically. Regulations are probably going to be the only path, and it'll require a reversal of the current momentum which is to allow guns into more and more and more public places.

455 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:55:10am

re: #449 Targetpractice

All they do is keep everybody who doesn't know the code or where the keys are kept from getting in, something that makes them piss-poor at keeping mentally ill persons with knowledge of both from getting to weapons of mass destruction. And they also take the bite out of the "self-defense" argument for owning a gun when you have to take time during a home invasion to get the safe open.

Step in the right direction I stated. NOT an absolute answer

I change my code once a month. Hell, one time I even forgot it

456 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:55:44am

re: #454 Obdicut

The only piece of data that's indisputably true is that when you have fewer guns, you have less gun violence.

Half right. You want both fewer guns and fewer killers.

457 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:55:56am

re: #448 Political Atheist

If nobody died from those things used deliberately you would be right. The people are just as dead in Oklahoma city.

I'm sorry, but you're missing my point. You can kill someone with soda crackers, too, but soda crackers are not guns. A fully assembled bomb is a dangerous thing: i'm all for banning fully-assembled bombs. Fertilizer is not the same thing.

It is really important not to make false analogies. Guns are special. Guns are things that are made to make it really easy for one person to blow holes in something else. That is their essence and what they are for.

Would banning guns stop people from using bombs? No. Nobody is claiming that.

458 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:56:08am

re: #436 sattv4u2

Seriously, they're actually good. Creamy texture, mild "meat" taste

And hope that the monkey didn't have any sort of prion-based disease in its nervous tissue.

459 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:56:13am

re: #434 Gus

Say you have access to mental health care. How are you going to get some misanthropic, anti-social, 20 something guy with violent fantasies and a small gun collection into therapy? Therapy which sometimes require years of sessions with no valid fixes at times. It's not like you would get someone like this, put him into this nebulous "access to mental health care program" and fix him like magic.

I've been thinking about this too. It's one of those issues that nobody is going to tackle but maybe we should be looking at rethinking mental institutions. In hindsight the Colorado movie shooter should probably have been institutionalized. Same with the kindergarten guy last week. The homeless problem in America has very little to do with working poor people and mostly consists of the mentally ill and drug addicts. I've been curious about how European countries deal with this. I live in a decent neighborhood but there's a mental health clinic a few blocks away where criminals go for their court ordered methadone and counseling services. Some of these people are truly spooky. Having arguments with the voices in their heads, trying to pick fights with passing cars, etc. If I had children I'd be pretty nervous having them here. Some of these people probably shouldn't be walking around free and unsupervised.

460 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:56:22am

re: #456 Political Atheist

Half right. You want both fewer guns and fewer killers.

No, it's not half-right. When you have fewer guns, you have less gun violence. That's simply factually true.

461 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:56:34am

re: #455 sattv4u2

Step in the right direction I stated. NOT an absolute answer

I change my code once a month. Hell, one time I even forgot it

I'll agree that it's a step towards preventing younger children and visitors from getting hands on the guns. But once you get old enough that momma's teaching you to shoot and trusts you with her arsenal, then they're just expensive display cases.

462 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:56:51am

re: #458 Feline Fearless Leader

And hope that the monkey didn't have any sort of prion-based disease in its nervous tissue.

Thats why they put hot sauce on the tables

Kills the prion!!!

463 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:56:59am

re: #451 Feline Fearless Leader

A multi-angle approach is needed. And it will be long-range and slow to implement for obvious reasons.

Better teaching of gun safety and handling; possibly beyond a licensing requirement and making it part of the standard elementary education system. Teach that guns are a *tool* and start the process of removing the gun as a mythic object. Someone pointed out that if you teach cleaning and maintenance and make handling guns a *chore* it can become a turnoff to be attracted to them.

Better handling of mental health issues and treatment. Again, something that is rooted in education is getting myths debunked. Mental illness is an illness and social issue. This is aimed at identifying and helping these people before they reach the point where they decide that they want to commit suicide and take a bunch of other people with them.

I'm not sure how to address numbers and types of guns. Improvements in the processes involving licensing and changes of ownership at the very least. The current laws might be sufficient, but enforcement would need to be tightened and properly funded. And, at a minimum, make illegal sales by the holder of a FFL something that have very severe penalties.

Again, what would a "gun safety and handling" course do to mitigate a potential spree killer? Is an anti-social future serial killer going to take those course and then decide to cancel his planned future mall shooting? "Well, after I took that course I decided not to spray my local McDonald's with bullets."

464 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:57:31am

re: #435 Political Atheist

Sorry, I may be a bit lost. Just started reading through. Are we limiting what we call for to what would have made a difference in this case only, or are broader approaches and suggestions also on the table?

In my perfect world, we would reach these people while they are still kids. Somehow parents and teachers would get the kid referred to an evaluation -at the very least. I have a hard time believing that people "just snap". There have to be warning signs that we are missing.

All of this, I think starts with removing the stigma of mental health treatment.

465 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:57:37am

re: #462 sattv4u2

Thats why they put hot sauce on the tables

Kills the prion!!!

Oh geez.
That was bad sat, real bad.
Go to your room.

466 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:57:46am

re: #463 Gus

Again, how would "gun safety and handling" course do to mitigate a potential spree killer? Is an anti-social future serial killer going to take those course and then decide to cancel his planned future mall shooting? "Well, after I took that course I decided not to spray my local McDonald's with bullets."

It sounds like this kid got a lot of gun-training from his mom, who was very much into guns, too.

467 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:57:58am

re: #437 Varek Raith

Stop it.
Just stop.
:P

Wait, YOU are the undead here.

:0

468 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:58:30am

re: #467 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Wait, YOU are the undead here.

:0

Yes, not a zombie though.
A Lich.
;)

469 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:59:02am

re: #468 Varek Raith

Yes, not a zombie though.
A Lich.
;)

There IS a difference.

470 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:59:33am

re: #461 Targetpractice

I'll agree that it's a step towards preventing younger children and visitors from getting hands on the guns. But once you get old enough that momma's teaching you to shoot and trusts you with her arsenal, then they're just expensive display cases.

But knowing her son was having issues (I linked to an interview with family members that all knew) wouldn't you think it's incumbent upon the mother to change the code or re-hide the key to something/ where he didn't have access too?

NOT 'blaming" the mother here, just a normal precaution I woiuld think

471 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:59:34am

re: #469 Targetpractice

There IS a difference.

Smash the phylactery.

472 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:59:48am

re: #465 Varek Raith

Oh geez.
That was bad sat, real bad.
Go to your room.

ummm,,, I'm IN my room!!

473 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:59:53am

re: #471 Obdicut

Smash the phylactery.

If you can find it.
Good luck.

474 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 9:59:57am

re: #438 Gus

You'd be looking at large swaths of involuntary commitment because that's what it would take.

That's what I was just thinking about. I wonder how European countries deal with the issue. In London, I almost never see crazy street people wandering around or camping in alleys or parks. They must put them somewhere.In Paris there are a few crazies wandering the streets but they seem mostly harmless old winos. I suspect most Europeans countries still have a system of state incarceration for the mentally ill.

475 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:00:12am

re: #453 Political Atheist

Broader. Research. Not talking more therapy here. What turns a person into a mass killer?

Pick a site. I'm sure you can find the cause being any of the following:
Obama
Abortion
Taxes
Communists
Muslims
Godlessness
High fiber bran muffins
Processed Sugar
Alien Mind Control Rays
Chemtrails
Tom Brady and the New England Patriots
Cats
Dogs

//

476 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:00:27am

re: #472 sattv4u2

ummm,,, I'm IN my room!!

Well, good.
That's what you get for bad jokes!
:P

477 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:01:06am

re: #476 Varek Raith

Well, good.
That's what you get for bad jokes!
:P

but,, But,,, BUT , I LIKE my room

478 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:01:17am

re: #476 Varek Raith

re: #477 sattv4u2

but,, But,,, BUT , I LIKE my room

and my jokes!

479 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:01:50am

"Gun safety training" will do absolutely nothing to address America's gigantic problem with gun violence. Adam Lanza was very well trained in using guns, and he proved that on Friday.

480 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:02:37am

re: #470 sattv4u2

But knowing her son was having issues (I linked to an interview with family members that all knew) wouldn't you think it's incumbent upon the mother to change the code or re-hide the key to something/ where he didn't have access too?

NOT 'blaming" the mother here, just a normal precaution I woiuld think

Thing is, with the woman dead, all we can really go on at this moment is second and third-hand accounts. I've no real clue as to what her view was as to whether her son was someone in need of help or if she was one of those who thinks mental illness something the government makes up to scare people into being drugged into zombies. All I know at this point is she, up til the day he snuffed her out, trusted him with her guns.

481 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:03:10am

re: #470 sattv4u2

But knowing her son was having issues (I linked to an interview with family members that all knew) wouldn't you think it's incumbent upon the mother to change the code or re-hide the key to something/ where he didn't have access too?

NOT 'blaming" the mother here, just a normal precaution I woiuld think

Yeah, that kinda freaks me out.

Only because there was a incident in our family where other family members actually confiscated the firearms in the house for safety purposes with the agreement that if the person got help --they might have access again.

Doesn't stop them from from buying more, but also let's them know they are being watched-seriously.

482 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:03:44am

re: #474 Killgore Trout

That's what I was just thinking about. I wonder how European countries deal with the issue. In London, I almost never see crazy street people wandering around or camping in alleys or parks. They must put them somewhere.In Paris there are a few crazies wandering the streets but they seem mostly harmless old winos. I suspect most Europeans countries still have a system of state incarceration for the mentally ill.

From Wiki.

Involuntary commitment - United Kingdom

In the United Kingdom, the process known in the United States as involuntary commitment is informally known as "detaining" or "sectioning," using various sections of the Mental Health Act 1983 (covering England and Wales), the Mental Health (Northern Ireland) Order 1986 and the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Act 2003 that provide its legal basis.

In England and Wales, approved mental health professionals have a lead role in coordinating Mental Health Act assessments, which they conduct in cooperation with usually two medical practitioners. Under the Mental Health Act, detention is determined by utility and purpose. Mentally ill individuals may be detained under Section 2 for a period of assessment lasting up to 28 days or Section 3 for a period of treatment lasting up to 6 months. Patients already on a ward may be detained under section 5(2) for up to 72 hours for the purposes of allowing an assessment to take place for section 2 or 3. Separate sections deal with mentally ill criminal offenders. In all cases detention needs to be justified on the basis that the person has a mental disorder and poses a risk of harm to their own health, safety, or the safety of others.[20]

Under the amended Mental Health Act 2007, which came into force in November 2008, to be detained under Section 3 for treatment, appropriate treatment must be available in the place of detention. Supervised Community Treatment orders means people can be discharged to the community on a conditional basis, remaining liable to recall to hospital if they break the conditions of the community treatment order.

In the case of spree killers we're not looking at a homeless population. Not sure about the subway shovers. Also, to note, that people with mental illnesses are more likely to be victims of violence rather than the other way around.

483 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:03:50am

re: #470 sattv4u2

But knowing her son was having issues (I linked to an interview with family members that all knew) wouldn't you think it's incumbent upon the mother to change the code or re-hide the key to something/ where he didn't have access too?

NOT 'blaming" the mother here, just a normal precaution I woiuld think

I wonder if they were even locked up.

484 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:04:31am

re: #481 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Yeah, that kinda freaks me out.

Only because there was a incident in our family where other family members actually confiscated the firearms in the house for safety purposes with the agreement that if the person got help --they might have access again.

Doesn't stop them from from buying more, but also let's them know they are being watched-seriously.

It's a good example of the problem in the system, which is that you don't have to be examined for mental illnesses before you can get a license, and so long as you're not listed as receiving care for a mental illness in the background check, nothing really stops you from buying more.

485 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:05:17am

re: #463 Gus

Again, what would a "gun safety and handling" course do to mitigate a potential spree killer? Is an anti-social future serial killer going to take those course and then decide to cancel his planned future mall shooting? "Well, after I took that course I decided not to spray my local McDonald's with bullets."

Of course not. That's why you also have to be working on the mental health angle as well.

As others pointed out guns are an easier means to carry out mayhem. If someone goes over the edge and plans a violent spree then it will happen, just that the means might be different.

Addressing "gun nut" can mean addressing the "gun" part separately from the "nut" part, and also attempting to address both parts.

486 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:05:28am

re: #483 Stanghazi

I wonder if they were even locked up.

My guess, no

I know quite a few gun owners and I would say less than half have lockers/ safes

487 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:06:31am

If you know someone in your family has issues, any issues, the first thing to do is make sure guns are not accessible.

No one wants to think that much could go wrong, but you must.

488 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:07:53am

re: #484 Targetpractice

It's a good example of the problem in the system, which is that you don't have to be examined for mental illnesses before you can get a license, and so long as you're not listed as receiving care for a mental illness in the background check, nothing really stops you from buying more.

He was denied buying one (56 seconds in)

489 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:08:31am

And the idea that more mental health care will do anything to fix the problem is another red herring. There's a reason why so many right wingers are suddenly so concerned about mental health care - because they're saying anything to divert attention away from the real problem.

490 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:09:49am

re: #485 Feline Fearless Leader

Of course not. That's why you also have to be working on the mental health angle as well.

As others pointed out guns are an easier means to carry out mayhem. If someone goes over the edge and plans a violent spree then it will happen, just that the means might be different.

Addressing "gun nut" can mean addressing the "gun" part separately from the "nut" part, and also attempting to address both parts.

Yeah. I also think that mental health care in this country is still somewhat taboo. Especially with men. It's slowly getting better but the fear of thinking oneself as needing help as being "crazy." Sort of like getting Tony Soprano into therapy.

491 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:10:02am

I'm not going to link what Victoria Jackson tweeted a few hours after the CT shooting spree, it's easy to find. It equates abortion with the spree killing.

Besides the immediate defense of guns in the aftermath, the the most offensive is speculation about gods will, or lack thereof, or somehow those victims deserved it or had it coming to them because of the lack of faith or removal of faith from schools.

People are going Westboro Baptist nuts.

492 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:10:05am

re: #488 sattv4u2

He was denied buying one (56 seconds in)

[Embedded content]

Way I heard it, he refused to submit to a background check, which wouldn't have mattered because he was too young to buy a gun in the first place. But considering word that he hadn't been diagnosed and undergoing treatment, the odds he'd have passed the background check are good.

493 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:11:57am

I understand the only real problem in the short-term (next 10 years) we can address is to remove access. Mental Health changes are a long-term solution, that while may still have holes in it, will reduce overall violence, IMHO.

I'm not sure requiring a mental health evaluation would be carried out evenly and fairly. There are a lot of doctors who are not gun lovers at all. And there are those who would be concerned about liability issues on both sides.

We are a big country, I don't have any short-term answers that would get thru Congress.

I do think the Assault-Weapons ban, if written correctly, might have a chance.

494 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:12:45am

re: #492 Targetpractice

Way I heard it, he refused to submit to a background check, which wouldn't have mattered because he was too young to buy a gun in the first place. But considering word that he hadn't been diagnosed and undergoing treatment, the odds he'd have passed the background check are good.

Reason I linked to that is perhaps he didn't initially have access to moms arsenal. Why go try to buy one if he had access to her guns (that is, in his planning on the killing spree)

Perhaps after not being able to buy one on his own he confronted mom (again, presuming he didn't have ready access to hers) and somehow forced her to open her stash

495 Political Atheist  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:13:08am

re: #489 Charles Johnson

All I have to say is that is not my motive at all.
BBL

496 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:13:41am

Many of the same right wingers now yelling about "better mental health care" are the same people who are normally utterly opposed to government involvement in health care. It's a sham argument.

497 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:14:05am

re: #492 Targetpractice

Way I heard it, he refused to submit to a background check, which wouldn't have mattered because he was too young to buy a gun in the first place. But considering word that he hadn't been diagnosed and undergoing treatment, the odds he'd have passed the background check are good.

And a person diagnosed and undergoing treatment, in many cases, is a better candidate for firearm ownership than someone who has never been evaluated and is not in treatment.

We have to develop reliable methods for evaluation.

498 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:14:27am

what the fuck

499 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:14:30am

re: #494 sattv4u2

Reason I linked to that is perhaps he didn't initially have access to moms arsenal. Why go try to buy one if he had access to her guns (that is, in his planning on the killing spree)

Perhaps after not being able to buy one on his own he confronted mom (again, presuming he didn't have ready access to hers) and somehow forced her to open her stash

Theoretically plausible, but again, considering testimony that she was an avid gun collector and had been teaching him to shoot and handle guns for years, I get the feeling that he didn't want to go through the trouble of acquiring her stash. Probably figured she'd know something was up if he was gathering up a handful of guns and wanted to go unnoticed until he started pulling the trigger.

500 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:15:25am

re: #489 Charles Johnson

And the idea that more mental health care will do anything to fix the problem is another red herring. There's a reason why so many right wingers are suddenly so concerned about mental health care - because they're saying anything to divert attention away from the real problem.

I wonder what they are saying about Whitlock after the RW excoriate him 2 weeks ago for saying we have a culture of guns in America. Much to the dismay to the RW. He was right on the money in his assessment.

501 researchok  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:16:47am

The problem is the gun culture- the environment in which guns are lionized, gun/violence fantasies are fetishized and there is a disconnect between behavior, accountability and responsibility.

502 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:17:09am

re: #498 Stanghazi

[Embedded content]

what the fuck

Probably some idiot called in a bomb threat. Maybe.

503 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:17:12am

So how do we combat the "Cult of the Gun" in the US? Legislating it will not do it, that will fail like any other attempt to legislate morality.

504 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:17:50am

re: #482 Gus

From Wiki.

Involuntary commitment - United Kingdom

In the case of spree killers we're not looking at a homeless population. Not sure about the subway shovers. Also, to note, that people with mental illnesses are more likely to be victims of violence rather than the other way around.

Interesting link and agreed about the homeless population. I was just thinking about them as indicators of a country's mental health services and institutions. Remember the viral pic on the internet about a week or two ago of the NY cop giving shoes to a homeless guy? it ends up the guy's not homeless. He has a government subsidized apartment but he has mental health issues. He's probably not dangerous but he clearly isn't capable of taking care of himself.

505 researchok  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:18:05am

re: #496 Charles Johnson

Yes- this is not about mental health care

506 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:18:14am

re: #499 Targetpractice

Theoretically plausible, but again, considering testimony that she was an avid gun collector and had been teaching him to shoot and handle guns for years, I get the feeling that he didn't want to go through the trouble of acquiring her stash. Probably figured she'd know something was up if he was gathering up a handful of guns and wanted to go unnoticed until he started pulling the trigger.

But seemingly his 1st victim was her
That, with trying to get a gun on his own, leads me to believe he may have had an argument/ altercation with her to get her guns
As to considering testimony that she was an avid gun collector and had been teaching him to shoot and handle guns for years, our best friends are avid collectors who have taught all their children (5,,, 2 girls, 3 boys) to shoot and handle guns

All the guns are locked in safes in the house

507 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:19:17am

re: #503 Feline Fearless Leader

So how do we combat the "Cult of the Gun" in the US? Legislating it will not do it, that will fail like any other attempt to legislate morality.

And do it without creating the "fear of even talking about guns" women I know. They even look around the restaurant (or what ever) to make sure no one heard me say the word "gun:".

I don't want to live in that kind of culture either.

508 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:21:05am

Since everybody loves when I link to the DKos Rec list....
I have a friend who's armed and insane in Portland Oregon
It something to think about, this situation isn't that uncommon.

509 Kronocide  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:21:41am

re: #489 Charles Johnson

And the idea that more mental health care will do anything to fix the problem is another red herring. There's a reason why so many right wingers are suddenly so concerned about mental health care - because they're saying anything to divert attention away from the real problem.

More health care and moar guns, in the hands of union thug teachers.

The logical house of cards is collapsing under the weight of reality.

510 Mich-again  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:22:52am

The gun nuts want everyone to just accept this sort of event happening every so often. light some candles, have a prayer service, forget about it.

511 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:23:17am

NAMI from 2007

The version of HR 2640 passed this week by the Senate contains some compromises and modifications to the original bill. In testimony provided last summer at a hearing on federal gun reporting laws, NAMI expressed a number of concerns about HR 2640 including:

Concerns that the definition in existing law of those who should be included on the NICS list is vague and overly broad, using terminology that is outdated and stigmatizing ("people adjudicated as mental defectives"). HR 2640 does nothing to change this stigmatizing and vague language.

Concerns that there are inadequate protections in current law against breaches of privacy or sharing of information with other agencies. HR 2640 attempts to address this concern by directing the U.S. Department of Justice to draft regulations addressing privacy protections.

Concerns that people had no way of knowing whether their names were on the list and that once on the list, there were no mechanisms to have one’s name removed from the list. HR 2640 partially addresses this concern by requiring that states create mechanisms to allow individuals who are no longer dangerous to have their names expunged from the list.

Concerns that Congress, by focusing on guns, was failing to address the real problem implicated in the Virginia Tech tragedy, the lack of a mental health system to respond to people like Cho who are in crisis and in need of treatment.

NAMI is pleased that some progress has made on HR 2640, but we remain concerned with certain aspects of the bill, particularly that the criteria for inclusion on the list and for removal from the list is vague and confusing, and therefore creates potential for misinterpretation and misapplication of the law.

512 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:25:19am

re: #506 sattv4u2

But seemingly his 1st victim was her
That, with trying to get a gun on his own, leads me to believe he may have had an argument/ altercation with her to get her guns
As to considering testimony that she was an avid gun collector and had been teaching him to shoot and handle guns for years, our best friends are avid collectors who have taught all their children (5,,, 2 girls, 3 boys) to shoot and handle guns

All the guns are locked in safes in the house

Like I said, most of what we know about the family situation is second and third hand, meaning we might be getting differing accounts as to how it was all being dealt with. That he had access means he either was still trusted or he bypassed her, neither of which is really encouraging.

513 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:27:03am

I just read that the shooter's mother pulled her son out school because she did not like the plans that the school district had for her son. The article does not give any information as to what the school district had planned or what the shooter's mother was "teaching" her son. There are a lot of unanswered questions on all sides that must be answered before anyone does anything as to laws relating to firearms or to mental capacities.

514 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:27:39am

re: #508 Killgore Trout

Since everybody loves when I link to the DKos Rec list....
I have a friend who's armed and insane in Portland Oregon
It something to think about, this situation isn't that uncommon.

HOLD THE WEDDIN!!

I heard from him after 25 years,,,,,,He was afraid they weren't going to let him out, so I talked to a lawyer and helped him get out.Two weeks later I drove up to Portland ,,,,,I knocked on the door of a dingy, clapboard house and walked in to a nightmare.

SO,,, after not hearing from someone for 25 YEARS, on that persons say so alone, you arrange for a lawyer to get him out of a facility WITHOUT 1st seeing whats going on !?!?!?!

515 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:28:18am

re: #508 Killgore Trout

re: #514 sattv4u2

HOLD THE WEDDIN!!

I heard from him after 25 years,,,,,,He was afraid they weren't going to let him out, so I talked to a lawyer and helped him get out.Two weeks later I drove up to Portland ,,,,,I knocked on the door of a dingy, clapboard house and walked in to a nightmare.

SO,,, after not hearing from someone for 25 YEARS, on that persons say so alone, you arrange for a lawyer to get him out of a facility WITHOUT 1st seeing whats going on !?!?!?!

((and when I said "you" I know it's not you, Kilgore, that did that))

516 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:29:03am

Ok, not so much mental illness or even the NICS system.

There are warning signals for a suicide --they are well published and disseminated.

Can we use the mental health system to identify warning signs for the mass shooter?

Can we concentrate our research and efforts here and get serious results?

517 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:29:52am

re: #514 sattv4u2

HOLD THE WEDDIN!!

I heard from him after 25 years,,,,,,He was afraid they weren't going to let him out, so I talked to a lawyer and helped him get out.Two weeks later I drove up to Portland ,,,,,I knocked on the door of a dingy, clapboard house and walked in to a nightmare.

SO,,, after not hearing from someone for 25 YEARS, on that persons say so alone, you arrange for a lawyer to get him out of a facility WITHOUT 1st seeing whats going on !?!?!?!

Yeah, I think the diarist is doing a bit of soul searching about that.

518 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:30:22am

re: #496 Charles Johnson

Many of the same right wingers now yelling about "better mental health care" are the same people who are normally utterly opposed to government involvement in health care. It's a sham argument.

When the fever swamps discuss mental health concerns, remember that they routinely characterize liberalism and homosexuality as mental illness--and the latter not in an at-all joking/insulting manner. Their image of mentally ill is just "really, really, not like us, so fuck them."

Graze tender subjects like social construction of masculinity and aggression, or chronic stress and the paranoid style as catalysts for violent conduct, and they'll freak out because it overlaps with cultural norms that they endorse.

519 Mich-again  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:30:48am

Whenever a government policy or program turns out to be a complete failure, the ideologues who promoted the failed policy will claim it was because it did not go far enough. If the medicine doesn't work, just keep increasing the dosage.

520 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:32:31am

re: #503 Feline Fearless Leader

So how do we combat the "Cult of the Gun" in the US? Legislating it will not do it, that will fail like any other attempt to legislate morality.

It starts by not legitimising it in everyday parlance. When people talk about 'guns for self-defence', or 'right to bear arms', or 'freedoms', or any of the other ridiculous fantasies that enshrine the cult in everyday speech, stop. It's no different than allowing people to blather about 'teach the controversy', or 'intelligent design', or 'both sides of the climate debate' - these are nothing more than passive legitimising of demonstrably false and ridiculous beliefs that America has allowed to creep into the national consciousness.

Stop feeding these fantasies. It won't happen overnight. It may not happen in our lifetimes. But nothing will change until Americans face the fact that pretending their dangerous toys have legitimate everyday uses is directly associated with the sacrifice of thousands of their fellow citizens.

521 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:33:33am
522 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:34:42am
523 stabby  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:34:53am

re: #230 William Barnett-Lewis

Saying that religion is harmful is not the same as hating its practitioners. That's a sidestep, a rhetorical lie that attempts to turn reason and criticism of these nonsense systems of thought into a hate crime so that you can dismiss that criticism and marginalize the critics as if they were haters.

You and Obdicut are both guilty of letting the truth slip so that you can use this ever so convenient rhetorical cudgel.

But attacking religion is not the same as demonizing or attacking or hating people who believe that religion.

If we allow the criticism to be construed as bigotry then we might as well give up on rationality.

524 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:36:44am

re: #518 The Ghost of a Flea

And if you want an example of the kind of closed-ness I'm talking about, look at how conservative "pro-family" people react to empirical data on domestic violence. They abhor and deny sociological work on the subject because the data doesn't sustain their idea that gender-complementarian, men-lead/women-follow is "natural" and healthy...quite the opposite.

Also consider that the current wingnut value system cheers on people when they're un-empathetic and rigidly judgemental. Do you really think these people would want to have a serious discussion about sociopathy--clinical lack of empathy--as a precursor sign of violent behavior?

525 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:36:51am

OKAY,, HUGE conundrum here

wifey and I are in a "dinner club" at our church. About 60 couples, and you draw numbers and make groups of 4 couples. Each month one of the four couples in your group hosts dinner at their house. After 4 months the groups are re-shuffled

So,, as luck would have it tonight is Dinner Club night (we're not the hosts)

Tonight also happens to be Patriots vs 49ers in what should be one of the most entertaining games of the year (HUGE Pats fan here)
SO,,,, do I feign an illness (cough ,, cough cough),, do I tape the game ( though I hate knowing the outcome before I watch)

526 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:37:12am

re: #522 Gus

Image: pb-120612-gun-protest-jm-0.photoblog900.jpg

Just a group of hunters protesting for their rights.

///

527 stabby  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:37:55am

I'm not up to date on this thread, but I'd say that if gun violence has made some conservatives admit that we should fund mental health care more, then that's a good thing even if they do it only because their higher priority is protecting their guns.

I am old enough to remember Reagan putting all the crazy people out ont the streets.

528 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:38:06am

re: #525 sattv4u2

OKAY,, HUGE conundrum here

wifey and I are in a "dinner club" at our church. About 60 couples, and you draw numbers and make groups of 4 couples. Each month one of the four couples in your group hosts dinner at their house. After 4 months the groups are re-shuffled

So,, as luck would have it tonight is Dinner Club night (we're not the hosts)

Tonight also happens to be Patriots vs 49ers in what should be one of the most entertaining games of the year (HUGE Pats fan here)
SO,,,, do I feign an illness (cough ,, cough cough),, do I tape the game ( though I hate knowing the outcome before I watch)

Does the host house have a good big screen TV? I assume there will be other husbands with the same conundrum . . .

529 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:38:09am

re: #526 Targetpractice

Just a group of hunters protesting for their rights.

///

Image: pb-120612-gun-protest-jm-01.photoblog900.jpg

Shaun McElroy, left, of Chesterfield, shakes hands with Sean Michael Combs while participating in a protest on Combs behalf in Birmingham, Mich. on Monday, June 11. Combs, of Troy, was arrested in Birmingham on April 13 after strolling the downtown area while carrying a rifle. He was charged with brandishing a weapon, disturbing the peace, and obstructing a police officer.

[Link: photoblog.nbcnews.com...]

530 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:38:14am

re: #522 Gus

Image: pb-120612-gun-protest-jm-0.photoblog900.jpg

Where/ when was/is that??

((and ,, do you have her phone #!?!?!)) //

531 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:38:18am

re: #523 stabby

Your Robert Spencer "Islam is worse than Christianity" bullshit is, was, and will remain stupid bullshit.

Pretending that I was attacking you for criticizing religion in general is also monumentally stupid.

532 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:38:35am

re: #529 Gus

Image: pb-120612-gun-protest-jm-01.photoblog900.jpg

[Link: photoblog.nbcnews.com...]

His rifle is pointed in the wrong direction.

533 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:38:48am

re: #528 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Does the host house have a good big screen TV? I assume there will be other husbands with the same conundrum . . .

Probably not Pats fans. The Falcons game is on now and they're all Georgians,

534 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:38:56am

re: #524 The Ghost of a Flea

And if you want an example of the kind of closed-ness I'm talking about, look at how conservative "pro-family" people react to empirical data on domestic violence. They abhor and deny sociological work on the subject because the data doesn't sustain their idea that gender-complementarian, men-lead/women-follow is "natural" and healthy...quite the opposite.

Just had a wingnut bring up exactly the point I expect if we all jump on the mental illness "solution" bandwagon, namely "It's overdiagnosed." And if you don't think you'll hear that a lot, go talk to a wingnut about ADD. "They're just hyperactive, I was like that as a kid! You just let them work it out!"

535 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:39:27am

re: #530 sattv4u2

Where/ when was/is that??

((and ,, do you have her phone #!?!?!)) //

Michigan.

536 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:39:38am

re: #526 Targetpractice

Just a group of hunters protesting for their rights.

///

Marching with high power weapons in front of an ice cream store. Just as the founders intended.

This is why our allies think we're psychotic.

537 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:40:03am

re: #535 Gus

Michigan.

You neglected to answer the more important question!!

//

538 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:40:06am

re: #496 Charles Johnson

Many of the same right wingers now yelling about "better mental health care" are the same people who are normally utterly opposed to government involvement in health care. It's a sham argument.

Anything, anything at all. Give better mental health care. Cure the insane. Invent cold fusion. Keep talking about the most esoteric tiny details of this gun vs that gun. Gun safes. Gun locks. Gun bags. Training. Classes. Education. Church attendance. Better parenting.

Anything, as long as we don't talk about me not having my precious, precious guns.

539 researchok  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:41:02am

re: #535 Gus

The photo was taken in Michigan.

The scene is from anywhere, USA

540 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:41:10am

re: #536 Mattand

Marching with high power weapons in front of an ice cream store. Just as the founders intended.

This is why our allies think we're psychotic.

Well, the founders did hold their meetings in public houses,,,, pubs , taverns,, and I would assume some had guns with them at times !!

541 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:41:31am

re: #522 Gus

Image: pb-120612-gun-protest-jm-0.photoblog900.jpg

I remember when that first came out. I wondered about the blonde with the boobs. I mean, WTF? Then I thought, "what a nice group of white people." If a similar group of a different ethnic background were to do that, Fox News would have a stroke.

If a non-armed black man opens doors for people at a voting location they claim intimidation!

idiots.

542 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:41:45am

re: #540 sattv4u2

Well, the founders did hold their meetings in public houses,,,, pubs , taverns,, and I would assume some had guns with them at times !!

Why would you assume that?

543 stabby  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:42:04am

re: #531 Obdicut

Robert Spencer's view is that Catholicism is perfect and should take over the earth.

My view is that Islam is less tame more violent and oppressive, and (according even to some very sane very liberal people who grew up in it like Egyptian peace and democracy activist Ali Salem) may never be tamed.

544 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:42:13am

re: #527 stabby

I'm not up to date on this thread, but I'd say that if gun violence has made some conservatives admit that we should fund mental health care more, then that's a good thing even if they do it only because their higher priority is protecting their guns.

I am old enough to remember Reagan putting all the crazy people out ont the streets.

I think the core problem is that the wingnuts are just using the mental health issue to distract from the gun control problem. Even if serious public mental health reform was politically possible, which it isn't, the Republicans would never want to fund it. The mental health issue is a political non-starter, I serious doubt enough Dems would support it. A cosmetic assault weapons ban would be politically easier, mostly because it accomplishes so little.

545 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:42:29am

re: #541 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I remember when that first came out. I wondered about the blonde with the boobs. I mean, WTF? Then I thought, "what a nice group of white people." If a similar group of a different ethnic background were to do that, Fox News would have a stroke.

If a non-armed black man opens doors for people at a voting location they claim intimidation!

idiots.

They had a collective aneurysm about a billy club.

546 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:42:56am

re: #543 stabby

Your view on Islam being more violent and oppressive due to the nature of the text of the Koran is the same as Robert Spencer's and many other anti-Islam lunatics. Deal with it.

547 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:43:23am

re: #542 Obdicut

Why would you assume that?

The place, the times, what they were planning. There were loyalists (to the crown) that wanted to do them harm, so for self protection as they rode to/ from in the darkness of night

548 Mich-again  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:43:53am

re: #539 researchok

The photo was taken in Michigan.

The scene is from anywhere, USA

The picture proves that gun nuts are real and AGW is real too. It used to be cold this time of year.

549 stabby  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:43:59am

re: #546 Obdicut

Just because a bigot said something isn't proof that it's wrong.

Start over.

550 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:44:32am

re: #540 sattv4u2

Well, the founders did hold their meetings in public houses,,,, pubs , taverns,, and I would assume some had guns with them at times !!

Is your nickname Mr. Fantastic? Because those stretching powers of yours are impressive! :)

551 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:44:35am

re: #547 sattv4u2

The place, the times, what they were planning. There were loyalists (to the crown) that wanted to do them harm, so for self protection as they rode to/ from in the darkness of night

Very likely carried flintlock pistols of various sizes, not something that's easy to reload fast in even peaceful conditions.

552 Gus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:45:03am

re: #548 Mich-again

The picture proves that gun nuts are real and AGW is real too. It used to be cold this time of year.

That's from June.

553 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:45:20am

re: #549 stabby

Just because a bigot said something isn't proof that it's wrong.

Start over.

And just because someone that disillusioned with something (according even to some very sane very liberal people who grew up in it like Egyptian peace and democracy activist Ali Salem) may never be tamed. isn;t proof that it's right!

554 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:45:31am

re: #547 sattv4u2

The place, the times, what they were planning. There were loyalists (to the crown) that wanted to do them harm, so for self protection as they rode to/ from in the darkness of night

So you don't understand or know much about the American Revolution, then.

Huge surprise.

555 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:45:44am

re: #533 sattv4u2

Probably not Pats fans. The Falcons game is on now and they're all Georgians,

I can't help you then.

556 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:45:59am

re: #522 Gus

Image: pb-120612-gun-protest-jm-0.photoblog900.jpg

Boobs and guns, she's such a bad ass.

557 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:46:46am

re: #551 Targetpractice

Very likely carried flintlock pistols of various sizes, not something that's easy to reload fast in even peaceful conditions.

They probably didn't even carry those most of the time. They were prone to going off accidentally, for one thing. For another, they were gathering secretly, and carrying around guns for no apparent reason tends to be a tip-off. For another, there was zero chance of 'loyalists' bursting in and shooting up the place.

The idea of pre-Revolution US as a place where people walked around armed is weird.

558 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:46:48am

re: #534 Targetpractice

Just had a wingnut bring up exactly the point I expect if we all jump on the mental illness "solution" bandwagon, namely "It's overdiagnosed." And if you don't think you'll hear that a lot, go talk to a wingnut about ADD. "They're just hyperactive, I was like that as a kid! You just let them work it out!"

Very true, I think many gun nuts would be suprised to learn what warning signs might be, if we had a list of them.

They are constantly spouting the "manly rhetoric" and seem to think everyone is Rush Limbaugh and understands is a "joke".

559 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:47:18am

re: #555 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I can't help you then.

(cough ,,, cough cough),, Honey,, I don't feel too well. Maybe you'll just have to go by yourself!! Tell them all I said GO PATS!!! ummm, Merry Christmas!!!

560 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:47:22am

re: #557 Obdicut

They probably didn't even carry those most of the time. They were prone to going off accidentally, for one thing. For another, they were gathering secretly, and carrying around guns for no apparent reason tends to be a tip-off. For another, there was zero chance of 'loyalists' bursting in and shooting up the place.

The idea of pre-Revolution US as a place where people walked around armed is weird.

YE OLDE WOLVERINEEEEESSSS!!!!!

561 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:47:49am

re: #549 stabby

Just because a bigot said something isn't proof that it's wrong.

Start over.

Yeah, I already detailed to you at length why the basic argument that the text of the Koran being 'worse' (when read selectively) than the Bible is stupid, and the argument that "Muslims have to take it literally" is stupid. You could go re-read it, I guess.

562 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:48:28am

re: #522 Gus

Image: pb-120612-gun-protest-jm-0.photoblog900.jpg

Another thing that gets me about this picture is you can't imagine it in most other first world nations. It was pointed out to me earlier you might see this in Israel, but even then, the people carrying such weapons have a reason to. Carrying guns in "protest" is something that we Americans just seem to shrug off as "normal."

563 Mich-again  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:48:50am

re: #552 Gus

That's from June.

Oh, thanks, Its about mid 50's and grey skies today.

564 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:48:56am

re: #529 Gus

Image: pb-120612-gun-protest-jm-01.photoblog900.jpg

[Link: photoblog.nbcnews.com...]

Another thing that we're not going to talk about as a society: Mental illness doesn't manifest in a vaccuum, it's shaped by family, environment, culture.

How does the prevalence of the paranoid style--"they're out to get you" and "you can't trust what's being said, it's all biased"--skew manifestations of mental illness in people immersed in it? What happens when you cross-couple imagery of noble vigilante-ism with delusions of persecution?

565 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:49:34am

re: #562 Targetpractice

Another thing that gets me about this picture is you can't imagine it in most other first world nations. It was pointed out to me earlier you might see this in Israel, but even then, the people carrying such weapons have a reason to. Carrying guns in "protest" is something that we Americans just seem to shrug off as "normal."

Yeah, I don't think it's normal.

566 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:50:06am

re: #559 sattv4u2

(cough ,,, cough cough),, Honey,, I don't feel too well. Maybe you'll just have to go by yourself!! Tell them all I said GO PATS!!! ummm, Merry Christmas!!!

My mantra (makes me an asshole sometimes, but I'm sticking to it)

Don't go to any social situation/invite you don't want to. Not worth it.

567 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:50:38am

re: #564 The Ghost of a Flea

Another thing that we're not going to talk about as a society: Mental illness doesn't manifest in a vaccuum, it's shaped by family, environment, culture.

How does the prevalence of the paranoid style--"they're out to get you" and "you can't trust what's being said, it's all biased"--skew manifestations of mental illness in people immersed in it? What happens when you cross-couple imagery of noble vigilante-ism with delusions of persecution?

Public School Indoctrination Camps are evil --so homeschooling is the answer!

/;)

568 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:51:04am

re: #560 Mattand

YE OLDE WOLVERINEEEEESSSS!!!!!

Another one of those things I was contemplating last night, namely what if their fantasy came true and our government became the sort of tyrannical power they figure the Founding Fathers intended them to fight against. What they forget is that most revolutions happen with the assistance of an outside power. Afghanistan threw the Soviets out, but that was after a decade of support from us. If America ever goes to war with itself, who do they expect to back them up?

569 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:51:33am

re: #562 Targetpractice

The clear implication is "If you, the government, go too far, we'll start shooting people". Along with the belief we're somewhere actually close to that line. Which is fucking insane.

570 Capitalist Tool  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:51:41am
571 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:52:00am

re: #568 Targetpractice

Another one of those things I was contemplating last night, namely what if their fantasy came true and our government became the sort of tyrannical power they figure the Founding Fathers intended them to fight against. What they forget is that most revolutions happen with the assistance of an outside power. Afghanistan threw the Soviets out, but that was after a decade of support from us. If America ever goes to war with itself, who do they expect to back them up?

Zombie Invasion is the real threat. Only projectile weapons work against them.

Or was that Replicators?

572 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:52:53am

re: #523 stabby

Saying that religion is harmful is not the same as hating it's practitioners. That's a sidestep, a rhetorical lie that attempts to turn reason and criticism of these nonsense systems of thought into a hate crime so that you can dismiss that criticism and marginalize the critics as if they were haters.

the term is too nebulous in the first place: do we mean the leaders of the faith, the practicioners of the faith, the institutions connected to the faith? all too easy to twist terms to derail the discussion.

573 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:53:08am

re: #569 Obdicut

The clear implication is "If you, the government, go too far, we'll start shooting people". Along with the belief we're somewhere actually close to that line. Which is fucking insane.

That people are so comfortable with the idea about going to war with their government and fellow Americans scares the fuck out of me.

574 Mich-again  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:53:18am

The shift to blaming this all on mental health issues is pretty close to the "No True Scotsman" explanation.

575 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:53:53am

re: #574 Mich-again

The shift to blaming this all on mental health issues is pretty close to the "No True Scotsman" explanation.

"No responsible gun owner would ever do something like this!!"

576 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:54:17am

re: #554 Obdicut

So you don't understand or know much about the American Revolution, then.

Huge surprise.

Yeah. I'm sure Jefferson didn't have a gun(s)
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."
Or Samuel Adams
"The said constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress
to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens
from keeping their own arms.

577 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:54:43am

re: #522 Gus

Image: pb-120612-gun-protest-jm-0.photoblog900.jpg

The fun I could have with a string of firecrackers. ///

578 Mich-again  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:54:45am

re: #573 Targetpractice

That people are so comfortable with the idea about going to war with their government and fellow Americans scares the fuck out of me.

How do these people think that will end for them when they take up arms against law enforcement and the government? That story only ends one way.

579 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:55:09am

re: #576 sattv4u2

They had guns. They weren't idiots who walked around with them or took them to the coffee shop to discuss militia organization with Revere, though.

580 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:55:51am
>Is there a profile of these mass murderers?

"There is a profile, but here is the problem with the profile," he says. "It applies not only to mass killers but to millions of other people who have never hurt anyone. So you have to be careful where you apply it."

Even so, certain characteristics do point to the possibility of being a mass murderer, Levin says.

"The first is chronic depression, over a long period of time," he says. "The second is social isolation -- having no place to turn when you get into trouble. The third is blaming everyone else for your problems."

Those who blame only themselves, he says, are more apt to commit suicide if they become very troubled.

"There is almost always a catastrophic loss -- the loss of a job, relationship, money in the stock market, being deeply in debt,'' Levin says.

linky fixed

581 Capitalist Tool  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:57:23am

re: #577 Romantic Heretic

The fun I could have with a string of firecrackers. ///

Is that a gun in your pants?

582 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:57:24am

They also had guns that could fire about 4 rounds a minute if you were good.

583 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:58:17am

re: #578 Mich-again

How do these people think that will end for them when they take up arms against law enforcement and the government? That story only ends one way.

It's like I pointed out yesterday, most people who watch Red Dawn forget that the kids, with the exception of two confirmed at the end, all die in the end.

584 Mattand  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:59:15am

re: #576 sattv4u2

Yeah. I'm sure Jefferson didn't have a gun(s)
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."
Or Samuel Adams
"The said constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress
to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens
from keeping their own arms.

We have not found any evidence that Thomas Jefferson said or wrote, "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."

585 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:00:28am

re: #583 Targetpractice

It's like I pointed out yesterday, most people who watch Red Dawn forget that the kids, with the exception of two confirmed at the end, all die in the end.

One of 'em turns traitor after having been captured, too, and his friends execute him. It's hardly a movie about awesome rah-rah militia exceptionalism.

586 Capitalist Tool  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:00:40am

re: #582 Varek Raith

They also had guns that could fire about 4 rounds a minute if you were good.

So did the government.

For me, when trying to get to the truth of an issue, it helps to look at all the angles. The old Dragnet saw, "Just the facts" doesn't work for me, because facts are not truth. Facts are facets of the shining diamond of truth.

587 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:01:28am

re: #583 Targetpractice

Also, that what they're doing is pretty much how insurgency everywhere functions. Both in that it's a meat grinder and that most of the combatants have little grasp of ideology beyond "our place, not yours."

588 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:01:41am

re: #586 Capitalist Tool

So did the government.

For me, when trying to get to the truth of an issue, it helps to look at all the angles. The old Dragnet saw, "Just the facts" doesn't work for me, because facts are not truth. Facts are facets of the shining diamond of truth.

Then I demand the right to have a B2!

589 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:03:03am

Psychologists examining warning signs of mass violence

Adolescent mass killers differ from adult mass murderers in some ways. One study, in 2000, found that adolescents are more likely to collaborate with others, are more likely to reveal clues -- Facebook postings, for example -- that they are planning something, and are less likely than adult killers to commit suicide.

. . .

A Secret Service study in 2002 found that in 81 percent of school-shooting cases, at least one person knew about the plans in advance; and in 93 percent, people around the attackers noted disturbing behaviors ahead of time, such as acquiring guns or writing poems or essays on homicidal themes.

A study last year said most adult mass killers, too, signal their intent in some way, though not to their actual target.

Often, too, there's what psychologists call an "energy burst warning," a sudden jump in activities relating to the target.

As the 2011 study notes, "Warning behaviors can only constitute warnings if the behaviors are detected."

Conceding that mental-health care options in many places are limited and inadequate, Meloy, who calls himself an optimist, makes two observations.

590 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:03:17am

re: #588 Varek Raith

Then I demand the right to have a B2!

You coulda had a V8!!
Image: 220px-V8_vegetable_juice.JPG

591 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:04:04am

re: #585 Obdicut

One of 'em turns traitor after having been captured, too, and his friends execute him. It's hardly a movie about awesome rah-rah militia exceptionalism.

Hence why the remake, as far as I've read, is basically "right wing gunwank," to borrow a term from Yahtzee Croshaw. Even the execution is taken out, instead replaced with a "noble sacrifice" with him leaving the group to be captured alone by the North Koreans.

592 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:05:37am

re: #566 Stanghazi

My mantra (makes me an asshole sometimes, but I'm sticking to it)

Don't go to any social situation/invite you don't want to. Not worth it.

Satt has known about the dinner schedule and the game today for along time.
Canceling the dinner with friends at the last minute and trying to come up with a phony excuse is unfair to the other couple and his wife. Man up Satt..Tape the game and enjoy their companionship. Brady doesn't need you to watch in order to win this game...LOL Satt just teasing you

593 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:05:48am

re: #568 Targetpractice

Another one of those things I was contemplating last night, namely what if their fantasy came true and our government became the sort of tyrannical power they figure the Founding Fathers intended them to fight against. What they forget is that most revolutions happen with the assistance of an outside power. Afghanistan threw the Soviets out, but that was after a decade of support from us. If America ever goes to war with itself, who do they expect to back them up?

If that comes to pass I, living here in Canada, will regard it as a money making opportunity.

All the more complex weapons in the U.S. arsenal are made all over the States, then put together somewhere. Like M1s in Detroit. I'll buy parts from one side and sell them to the other at a huge markup. I'll take dollars for a while but then I'll switch to gold as a long civil war won't be good for the currency.

I'm evil. Yes, I am. ///

594 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:07:47am

:(

Okay. Wifey isn't buying the sick act, so off to shower, get a haircut, buy some wine then off to dinner club, thus missing at least the 1st half of Pats/ 49ers!!

{grumble,,, grumble grumble}

595 Varek Raith  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:08:24am

re: #594 sattv4u2

:(

Okay. Wifey isn't buying the sick act, so off to shower, get a haircut, buy some wine then off to dinner club, thus missing at least the 1st half of Pats/ 49ers!!

{grumble,,, grumble grumble}

Image: You_gotta_do_what_You_gotta_do_by_the_deadguy.png

596 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:09:48am

re: #588 Varek Raith

Then I demand the right to have a B2!

As long as you can afford to keep it flying, why not? I suspect anyone poorer than Bill Gates wouldn't be able to afford such an aircraft though.

597 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:10:21am

re: #596 Romantic Heretic

As long as you can afford to keep it flying, why not? I suspect anyone poorer than Bill Gates wouldn't be able to afford such an aircraft though.

a well-financed militia?

598 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:11:30am

re: #592 A Man for all Seasons

Satt has known about the dinner schedule
,,,
Not really

Wifey tells me these social things day of. When she tells me ahead of time, it's like Charlie Brown listening to the teacher. All I hear is "whahhh whaa,, whaah whahha whaa whaa"

599 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:12:45am

re: #583 Targetpractice

It's like I pointed out yesterday, most people who watch Red Dawn forget that the kids, with the exception of two confirmed at the end, all die in the end.

I've always thought that if Red Dawn hadn't been an American movie about American partisans in WWIII it could easily have been a Russian movie about Russian partisans in WWII.

600 Capitalist Tool  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:12:45am

re: #598 sattv4u2


Satt has known about the dinner schedule
,,,
Not really

Wifey tells me these social things day of. When she tells me ahead of time, it's like Charlie Brown listening to the teacher. All I hear is "whahhh whaa,, whaah whahha whaa whaa"

For 10 bucks, we won't tell her you said that...

601 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:16:56am

re: #588 Varek Raith

Then I demand the right to have a B2!

Come up with the $2 Billion (one to reopen the line, the second for the actual aircraft) and I'm sure Northrup-Grumman would be happy to oblige you.

602 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:17:34am

re: #599 Romantic Heretic

I've always thought that if Red Dawn hadn't been an American movie about American partisans in WWIII it could easily have been a Russian movie about Russian partisans in WWII.

It was supposedly inspired by the Soviet-Afghan War, which I guess was supposed to be a whole "rah-rah for the freedom fighters!" at a time when a lot of folks thought WWIII inevitable and were engaged in fictional stories about how the Soviets would be fought off by scrappy American resistance fighters.

603 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:18:28am

re: #602 Targetpractice

Back when the Muhajedin were the good guys, yes...

604 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:19:04am

Despair, Mental Health, and Mass Murder

Gun control is not the only front, and the only cure. Previous waves of mass violence, like labor massacres and lynchings, are a thing of the past not because the means were eliminated, but because the culture changed, thanks in some part to indirect public policy but mostly due to the continued vigilance of many people about many, many things. Did they forget specific instances of violence? Unquestionably; with nearly 5,000 lynchings over the course of a century, no one could know all of them, much less remember them (and it took a vast effort to produce that total). the totality of them lingered—forgotten, but not gone.

605 Stanghazi  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:21:10am

re: #592 A Man for all Seasons

Satt has known about the dinner schedule and the game today for along time.
Canceling the dinner with friends at the last minute and trying to come up with a phony excuse is unfair to the other couple and his wife. Man up Satt..Tape the game and enjoy their companionship. Brady doesn't need you to watch in order to win this game...LOL Satt just teasing you

True, true. Check your schedule before accepting invite.

606 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:21:32am

re: #598 sattv4u2

Wifey tells me these social things day of.
You find out about dinner dates the day off?
Never mind..In this case I'd be a lousy couples therapist..

607 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:24:04am

re: #604 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Despair, Mental Health, and Mass Murder

So which culture do you want to change? The one about how we deal with the mentally ill, which doesn't really have anything to do with gun violence, or the one where Americans continue to pretend that civilian firearms are justified, which has everything to do with it?

608 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:26:11am

re: #607 Renaissance_Man

So which culture do you want to change? The one about how we deal with the mentally ill, which doesn't really have anything to do with gun violence, or the one where Americans continue to pretend that civilian firearms are justified, which has everything to do with it?

I do not agree fully: one former is still tangentially related, but the latter is much closer to the root cause.

609 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:27:01am

re: #606 A Man for all Seasons

Wifey tells me these social things day of.
You find out about dinner dates the day off?
Never mind..In this case I'd be a lousy couples therapist..

DAY of

Sometimes,, TIME of!!

(hey ,, it works for us!!)

610 calochortus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:27:07am

Guns in Colonial America-note there are 3 parts which can be accessed from this link to the first part

Concluding paragraph:

"It is difficult, therefore, to credit the unsupported statements of historians that "the callused hand of the pioneering settler cradled a musket as easily as a pitchfork, and military training of a sort was nearly as much a part of his diet as salt pork." 101 Contrary to the popular perception which imagines all settlers as hunters as well as farmers, the vast majority of those living in the British North American colonies had no use for firearms, which were costly, difficult to locate and maintain, and expensive to use. For those few Americans who did own guns--and the evidence from the militia records is very compelling on this point--a gun was an object which sat gathering rust."

611 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:27:23am

Laterz

612 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:28:05am

It's scary to think about. We don't hear about unsuccessful school shooters:

More importantly, training in and use of procedures for
handling threats have already begun to avert tragedy and preserve school safety. In Cleveland, a plot to stage a Columbinelike event was foiled when a student asked to join the plot informed her mother, who called the high school principal. By the next day, school and city leaders and police officials had
mobilized, closed the school for one day, and taken action against the plotters. Similar recent incidents in Wisconsin and Michigan highlight the critical importance of effective plans for reporting threats.

613 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:28:06am

As a bit of a counterpoint to the Fischer tweets. This is a FB post by a pastor I know:

Since Friday's horror, I've seen a variety of people say things along the line of "if you let God into the schools, these things wouldn't happen. Please, no. This approach is wrong on so many levels. Take some time to google 1) The Tri-State Tornado, 2) Our Lady of the Angels Fire, 3) New London School Explosion, 4) Collinwood School Fire, 5) Bath School Disaster (FB wouldn't like that many links in a post).

Those are a variety of disasters (tornado, explosion, fire). Some of them are natural disasters, others were created by humans (be it negligence or malice). Notice that all of those were before "God was removed from the schools."

What's worse though, is the message that you're giving off when you say things like this. What kind of message are you giving about God? Why tragedies happen is not an easy question, and throwing out a quick, facile "answer" like this does nothing more than turn people away from what you have to say.

Yes, as Jesus reminds us with the story of the Tower of Siloam, we should use these things as a reminder of the importance of repentance. However, that is a time for us to look at ourselves and our own mortality, not to put on our self-assured, self-righteous hats and point at everyone else.

614 calochortus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:31:32am

re: #613 Feline Fearless Leader

I'm not religious, but it drives me nuts to hear "this is pure evil", "this man was demon possessed", "we've driven God out of our society, so what can we expect?"

All of these share the common thread of 'there's nothing we can do about it, so back to business as usual.' Really, we shouldn't even try? I don't think that attitude will help.

615 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:32:04am

2012 journal article:
School Shootings: The Warning Signs

In several cases, parents of school shooters were aware of behaviors in their children that in hindsight can be seen as significant
warning signs. To cite one example, Kip Kinkel was obsessed
with guns. He begged and pleaded for his parents to buy him
guns. When his father bought him one gun, Kip just wanted
more. By itself, this may not seem alarming. Kip, however, was
also an explosively angry young man. He was also severely depressed. These symptoms were significant enough that his parents took him to both a psychiatrist and a psychologist. He also
had an extensive knife collection. The Kinkel’s housekeeper was
so disturbed by Kip’s weapons that she quit her job with them.

This is a good read.

616 Feline Fearless Leader  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:38:18am

re: #614 calochortus

I'm not religious, but it drives me nuts to hear "this is pure evil", "this man was demon possessed", "we've driven God out of our society, so what can we expect?"

All of these share the common thread of 'there's nothing we can do about it, so back to business as usual.' Really, we shouldn't even try? I don't think that attitude will help.

I am not religious either and hold mankind fully responsible for its own evil. The Fischer and Hickabee tweets are simply reinforcement to me that many religious figures espouse poor policies for bad motivations and (hopefully) should be ignored by our culture.

Thus my willingness to quote another pastor to show there is some moderate pushback against this and that there are voices wearing the cloth that have positive attitudes and views. (I don't agree with him on a lot of philosophical points and viewpoints, but I do know that he is a good person interested in charitable action and the progress of mankind.)

617 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:39:12am

re: #607 Renaissance_Man

So which culture do you want to change? The one about how we deal with the mentally ill, which doesn't really have anything to do with gun violence, or the one where Americans continue to pretend that civilian firearms are justified, which has everything to do with it?

I'd like to make the warning signs part of the dialogue. Like we have with suicide and drug abuse. I'd like to work to remove the stigma of mental illness that might prevent a parent from seeking treatment for their child.

These are long term goals.

I have no idea how to change the gun nuts. I understand the the assault weapons ban if written effectively would reduce the numbers of deaths. This is a short-term, immediate answer. And a necessary one.

I just am worried that once the "instant gratification " of passing the AWB, will cause people to put it to the back of their consciouses and neglect the long-term aspects.

We've slowing changed the thinking of a lot of people when it comes to suicide and drug abuse. This things being a weakness or cause for embarrassment to the understanding that they can be prevented thru intervention. I'd like to see the same for those at risk for committing mass violence.

618 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:41:58am

re: #610 calochortus

Guns in Colonial America-note there are 3 parts which can be accessed from this link to the first part

Concluding paragraph:

I also recall reading that it was not until the end of the Civil War, when veterans were allowed to take their muskets home with then, that gun ownership in America became widespread.

619 Funky_Gibbon  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:55:01am

Maybe someone should point out to those calling for teachers to go around armed that they're calling for liberal leftie public sector Democrat voters to be armed? I'm pretty sure they'd go off the idea then. Fox News goes apeshit when they see a teacher carrying a placard, I'm fairly sure they'd going into apoplexy if they were carrying a Smith & Wesson too.

620 calochortus  Sun, Dec 16, 2012 11:55:26am

re: #618 Sol Berdinowitz

I also recall reading that it was not until the end of the Civil War, when veterans were allowed to take their muskets home with then, that gun ownership in America became widespread.

I've read that as well-additionally all those firearms factories needed to keep consumption up after the war and helped manufacture the myth of Colonial America and Guns.


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