From Fish to Football

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Thanks to Andrew Marcus of Founding Bloggers for the words of support and the groovy Darwinian LGF logo: Little Green Darwin.

In homage to Charles Johnson’s Little Green Footballs, and his continuing efforts to expose the escalating movement to thrust creationism into tax payer funded education, we here at Founding Bloggers have created a LGF logo that celebrates the theory of evolution.

We all owe Charles a small debt of gratitude for his tireless work defending common sense, yet again. This logo is our small way of saying thanks.

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155 comments
1 DisturbedEma  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 9:59:48am

wOOt!

2 Adrenalyn  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 9:59:57am

can I sing the anthem

3 Sharmuta  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:00:26am

I love it!

4 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:00:52am

Reminds me of the fish logo that you see on cars, but not the Christian one, the fish with feet, and that say "Darwin".

5 Bloodnok  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:01:18am

Cool as hell!

6 Sharmuta  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:01:32am

There's an IDer over there, but the admin's already called him out.

7 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:01:38am

Where's the transitional football ?

8 turn  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:01:39am

I like it!

9 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:01:41am
10 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:01:50am

Cute!

11 pat  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:01:54am

"It walks among us! "

Campbell, The Thing

12 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:01:57am

Cool. Maybe you can use it here to celebrate Darwin's birthday? Kinda like the way Google doesn't celebrate Memorial Day. Or Veteran's Day. Or...

13 Kragar  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:03:05am

I actualy saw a Cthulhu fish on a car last week, now I want one

14 Sharmuta  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:03:14am

It needs a name, this new species.... verde fishballus?

15 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:03:47am
For the record, this site believes that if a private religious school wants to teach creationism, great. If public schools want to mention it as a matter of historical perspective, that’s great too. But to teach creationism as a theory that is as plausible as evolution, on the tax payer dime, is madness.
16 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:03:50am

Put it up, Charles.

17 yma o hyd  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:04:01am

Lovely!
Can it go up on every anniversary of Charles Darwin's Birthday?

I know its too late for this year - but the next years?

18 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:04:41am
We all owe Charles a small debt of gratitude for his tireless work defending common sense, yet again.

Dittos.

19 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:04:47am

re: #17 yma o hyd

Lovely!
Can it go up on every anniversary of Charles Darwin's Birthday?

I know its too late for this year - but the next years?

Will he have a birthday next year?

20 Rexatosis  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:05:00am

Cool logo, but it's time for some Baseball, Spring Training and the WBC :)

21 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:05:03am

Awww . . .its a Little Green Fishball.

Cool

22 lawhawk  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:05:12am

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You mean this?

23 turn  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:05:42am

re: #6 Sharmuta

There's an IDer over there, but the admin's already called him out.

Ha, no order ever came from an explosion. These people are ridiculously close minded.

24 MandyManners  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:06:20am

Pull my fin.

25 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:06:58am

re: #18 wrenchwench

Dittos.

Yes, that's a certainty.re: #24 MandyManners

Pull my fin.

You're in top form this morning.

26 researchok  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:07:11am

Beautiful- When can we expect tshirts and ball caps?

I'd be down for that!

27 turn  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:07:26am

re: #14 Sharmuta

It needs a name, this new species.... verde lizardus fishballus?

Has a nice ring to it.

28 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:07:56am

Wouldn't proper grammar be ... a Little Green Feetball?

29 Cathypop  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:08:03am

Congratulations Charles!

30 Racer X  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:08:04am

re: #24 MandyManners

Pull my fin.

LOL!

31 DaddyG  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:08:30am

That new logo is a nice creation.

//

32 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:08:40am

Very funny. But some people are going to get their feelings hurt....
The cowardice and intolerance of slapping a Darwin fish on your car bumper

Jonah Goldberg

The Darwin fish ostensibly symbolizes the superiority of progressive-minded science over backward-looking faith. I think this is a false juxtaposition, but I would have a lot more respect for the folks who believe it if they aimed their brave contempt for religion at those who might behead them for it.

33 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:08:46am
34 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:08:48am

re: #22 lawhawk

You mean this?

Oh sure, find one that is out of stock.

35 yma o hyd  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:09:01am

re: #19 Walter L. Newton

Will he have a birthday next year?

Sure will - like George Washington does, and Abe Lincoln ...

;-)

36 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:09:13am

re: #31 DaddyG

That new logo is a nice creation.

//

It's a rather intelligent design.

/

37 MJ  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:09:30am

Does this make Andrew Marcus of Founding Bloggers an Intelligent Designer?

38 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:09:35am

It might also make a nice t-shirt for the LGF store.

39 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:09:46am

Phish?

40 Bloodnok  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:10:23am

Can someone Photoshop the LGF football as a turtle shell? Fair's fair...

41 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:10:31am

re: #39 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Phish?

Phat?

42 lawhawk  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:10:44am

re: #31 DaddyG

That new logo is a nice creation.

//

It's an evolution of the football species.

43 MJ  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:10:45am

re: #36 Ward Cleaver

It's a rather intelligent design.

/

What's that they say about great minds....

44 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:11:00am

re: #39 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Phish?

Stoned hippies doused in patchouli playing hacky-sack?

45 Empire1  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:12:14am

I like it a lot!

46 VioletTiger  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:12:29am

Hey, this kind of football might help the Eagles......

47 MandyManners  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:14:11am

I love hanging out with third-grade boys.

48 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:14:45am

At last! A football that can walk away from Charlie Brown when he tries to kick it. I love it.
-- Lucy Van Pelt

49 Eagle  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:14:48am

Hmm, which end is the 'business end' of that fishball?

I'm assuming the nose is away from the dotted path.

50 gymmom  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:19:12am

re: #47 MandyManners

I love hanging out with third-grade boys.

Something 3rd grade boys' parents should know in advance of your hanging out with them! ; )

51 Kragar  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:19:20am

re: #22 lawhawk

You mean this?

Thats the one

52 LGoPs  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:20:21am

re: #41 Walter L. Newton

Phat?

Are you trying to be phunny.....

53 bolivar  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:21:59am

re: #47 MandyManners

I love hanging out with third-grade boys.

I'll bet you do.

54 twincitiesgirl  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:23:24am

The Icthus symbol is from early Christian days when many Christians were persecuted for their belief in Christ. A good overview:

Ichthys

55 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:24:48am

re: #32 Killgore Trout

Very funny. But some people are going to get their feelings hurt....
The cowardice and intolerance of slapping a Darwin fish on your car bumper

Jonah Goldberg

This kind of sentiment has been annoying me for a while. It isn't bigoted to put a Darwin fish on your car, any more than it is to put a Jesus fish on your car. It seems there's a meme abroad that says proselytising on behalf of a faith is normal and the sign of healthy religious freedoms, whereas promoting an opposing point of view is bigotry. Some people seem to think that people of a less fundamentally religious persuasion should keep their mouths pretty well shut on these matters if they are to be 'decent' citizens. (Especially if they are atheists.)

Another way Goldberg's article backfires in it's assumption that the people who might sport a Darwin fish and the people who openly oppose Islamic extremism are two entirely separate groups of people.

Well, here is just one piece of evidence to the contrary: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

56 twincitiesgirl  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:27:08am

re: #54 twincitiesgirl

The Icthus symbol is from early Christian days when many Christians were persecuted for their belief in Christ. A good overview:

Ichthys

I should have said as used by Christians, since the symbol predates Christianity.

57 roguejew  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:34:53am

As a Jew, I believe in G-ds creation of the earth and all upon it, but I also believe that Darwin plays a role somewhere in all this.

Once upon a time, people didn't wear seat belts, no bicycle helmets, and 5 yr old kids did not get strapped into booster seats....All of these preventative measures have severely impacted the "thinning of the herd" and has allowed way to many stupid people to live and eventually one of them became our 44th President. We have made this world way to safe for fools, idiots, and Messiah wannabes.

Survival of the fittest has a purpose in this world.

58 nyc redneck  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:35:18am

excellent.
so cute.

59 itellu3times  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:37:30am

re: #14 Sharmuta

It needs a name, this new species.... verde fishballus?

Littlegreen GefilteFish

60 Land Shark  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:37:34am

Charles has taken his share of heat for his stand so it's nice to see him get some recognition for standing up for real science. A clever symbol, Little Green Darwin, I love it.

61 Dustyvet  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:42:23am

re: #24 MandyManners

Pull my fin.

Looking a fin...looking at clue by four...looking a fin, looking at clue by four...wonders off...:)

62 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:52:57am

re: #44 MrSilverDragon

Stoned hippies doused in patchouli playing hacky-sack?

Grateful Dead 2.0?

63 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:53:36am

A note to all those who think a legged fish is an insult to the fish revered by some; the legged fish simply represents the evolution of life from the seas to the land.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

64 Stonemason  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:55:39am

Okay, I get the entire debate, I strongly oppose any type of religious indoctrination in public schools. I think the young earth creationists are flat out wrong, and I think evolution took place on this planet.
There, an honest disclaimer that I hope is not ignored.
The fish that is on Christians cars is a historical Christian symbol, when I see the one with the little feet that says Darwin inside I wonder if the bearer understands that that is insulting, not funny. I am a Christian, I understand some of the mechanics of evolution, enough to know that life continually evolves, but why must people insult a symbol of faith?
Here, at LGF, it is commonly said that understanding one does not preculde understanding the other...so why insult one?

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:57:48am

re: #32 Killgore Trout

Very funny. But some people are going to get their feelings hurt....
The cowardice and intolerance of slapping a Darwin fish on your car bumper

Jonah Goldberg

That's BS. I know Christians with Darwin fish. I know Christians with Darwin fish and regular fish together on one car. And I get sick of this idea that every-damn-thing can be tested against 'would you say it to an Islamic fundamentalist terrorist'?

This is a predominately Christian society. A lot of our internal dialogue involves Christianity. That's OK. We're allowed to have involved discussions--even ones where feelings get hurt--about our own culture and society.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:59:09am

re: #54 twincitiesgirl

The Icthus symbol is from early Christian days when many Christians were persecuted for their belief in Christ. A good overview:

Ichthys

It's a beautiful symbol.

It's also cute as a football.

67 Summersong  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 11:01:40am

Virtue is its own reward,
yet it is nice to be appreciated.

Happy for you, Charles. :)

68 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 11:19:26am

[Link: www.wellcometreeoflife.org...]

Tree of Life - Video with David Attenborough and interactive section.

69 JamesW  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 11:31:30am

re: #4 Kosh's Shadow

Reminds me of the fish logo that you see on cars, but not the Christian one, the fish with feet, and that say "Darwin".

Never been a fan of those; they've always struck me as a gratuitious insult some folks' religion. Don't get me wrong. I've no problem with mocking faiths. When it comes to Islam, any bashing is needed and ergo not gratutious. But the Darwin fish I've never liked.

70 The_Vig  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 11:44:41am

re: #32 Killgore Trout

The question is, what would make a good anti-islamo-fascist bumper sticker or symbol that wouldn't be accused of straight out hatred.

I was thinking something along the lines of "Say no to Sharia"

Any other Ideas?

71 mgscheue  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 11:45:01am

Very nice, Charles. Thanks for your continued efforts against the forces of stupidity.

72 Dragonwolf  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 11:53:45am

So very way cool.

What's the next step? Medium Green Rugby Balls?

Or perhaps Feathered Footballs that Fly?

73 Dragonwolf  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 11:56:59am

re: #46 VioletTiger

Hey, this kind of football might help the Eagles......

Yeah, but the Lions need the help more....

74 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 11:58:24am

I've got a special treat here. The full program of "Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life" narrated by David Attenborough, which was first shown on BBC1 a few weeks ago. Here it is in glorious HD (remember to click on the HD button).

75 MacGregor  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 12:01:25pm

Kudos to you Charles for achieving excellence in leadership and honesty. You've done this the right way with candor and civility. Great work.

76 bbuck  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 12:19:47pm

Thanks for the post Charles! And thanks to all for the awesome feedback from everyone.

We love this blog, and this logo is the least we could do!

77 skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 12:22:40pm

If LGF doesn't intend offense towards the Christian faith in general, I would recommend against the use of the "Darwin Fish". It's typically viewed not as an attack on those who disbelieve in evolution, but rather a mockery of the entire Christian faith. Create a new symbol if you like, but if you don't intend to mock Christians and Christianity, don't mock a symbol that represents the faith.

78 jaunte  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 12:28:41pm

re: #77 skaught

Are you speaking for Christians in general, or is that just one person's recommendation?

79 cicero05  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 12:31:58pm

Hey Charles, we've been lizards for a long time. When are we going to make the jump to mammal?

80 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 12:36:54pm

re: #77 skaught

If LGF doesn't intend offense towards the Christian faith in general, I would recommend against the use of the "Darwin Fish". It's typically viewed not as an attack on those who disbelieve in evolution, but rather a mockery of the entire Christian faith. Create a new symbol if you like, but if you don't intend to mock Christians and Christianity, don't mock a symbol that represents the faith.

I thought the cross represented the faith. How many representations does it need? The Darwin logo is logical representation of evolution from fins to legs. It may have been preceded by the fish as a bumper sticker but, regardless, it is a good simple representation of evolution. Quite a few "fish" on cars, incidentally, are large fish gobbling up a Darwin "fish". I don't care.

The point that you miss however is that the mockery, when intended, is only towards the creationist/ID version of Christians. Personally I am not in favor of any bumper stickers. Whatever the flavor it is someone saying that "this is me, honk if you agree and stuff you if you don't".

However in a blog, I think it would be a good idea at a heading to a thread. Basically it says "beware all who enter here". No need to complain then.

81 Skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:07:41pm

I didn't suggest that I was speaking on behalf of all Christians. But as a Christian, who knows other Christians, I do have an understanding of how the "Darwin Fish" is perceived. Having known people with the "Darwin Fish" on their cars, I also know the intent behind it as well.

"How many representations does it need" is irrelevant to the fact that the icthus does represent Christians in general, not just "anti-evolutionists". I haven't missed any point, since the mockery that the "Darwin Fish" implies is not as limited as you wish it to be. LGF may not intend it, but the symbol does mock Christianity in general since the icthus represents Christianity in general.

My point, that I think you've missed is, if LGF does not intend to mock Christinity in general, it's best not to use a symbol that does that.

82 jaunte  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:10:50pm

re: #81 Skaught

Do you propose restricitng the use of symbols or images which any religion might find offensive?

83 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:12:43pm

re: #81 Skaught

I think we Christians need thicker skins, and less of the victim mindset.

84 Conservative in Liberal Hands  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:19:53pm

re: #59 itellu3times

Littlegreen GefilteFish

Lenten Green GefilteFish

/Jesus, we're arresting you for public intoxication. - Roman Constabulary

85 Conservative in Liberal Hands  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:21:09pm

re: #70 The_Vig

How about "DON'T BLAME ME! I DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM!"

86 Unakite  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:29:50pm

re: #9 buzzsawmonkey

I was hoping it would show the fish crawling out of the water and metamorphosing evolvinginto a football.

There, FIFY.

87 jdog29  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:32:16pm

Shark jumpers unite. There's a fin growing out of my head!

88 Skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:39:03pm

re: #82 jaunte

Do you propose restricitng the use of symbols or images which any religion might find offensive?

Oh good lord...did you see me propose anything about "restricting" or censoring anything? I have no clue how you arrived at that.

NO. I don't propose restricting anything. LGF is free to post ANYTHING they want that offends ANYONE. For the third time, my point is that if LGF doesn't intend to mock Christianity in general, it would be a good idea to not use a symbol that is perceived as mocking Christianity in general. I didn't say LGF shouldn't mock, or that LGF should be restricted from mocking.

89 jaunte  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:41:05pm

re: #88 Skaught

So the sum of your assertion is that a picture of a green football with a tail and feet is a mockery of Christianity. Interesting point.

90 Salamantis  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:45:21pm

Some folks love to be the mockers, but can't stand to be the mockees:

Image: 00000000000000060885.png

People are free to claim, and others are free to criticize their claims. And yet others are free to criticize their criticisms, and so on, in a free marketplace of ideas, until the cream rises to the top.

If folks are gonna dish it out, they should be prepared to take it.

91 The_Vig  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:51:57pm

re: #85 Conservative in Liberal Hands

How about "DON'T BLAME ME! I DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM!"

Yawn, predictable.

92 Skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:53:34pm

re: #89 jaunte

So the sum of your assertion is that a picture of a green football with a tail and feet is a mockery of Christianity. Interesting point.

So much for respectful discourse, I guess.

93 Skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:54:24pm

re: #90 Salamantis

Some folks love to be the mockers, but can't stand to be the mockees:

[Link: www.virtuousplanet.com...]

People are free to claim, and others are free to criticize their claims. And yet others are free to criticize their criticisms, and so on, in a free marketplace of ideas, until the cream rises to the top.

If folks are gonna dish it out, they should be prepared to take it.


Absolutely.

94 jdog29  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:57:39pm

"I personally believe the only reason I am not standing before you as a T-Rex is because our common ancestor endured different sets of environmental pressures."
President Barack Obama answering Bill O'Reilly

95 Skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:58:06pm

re: #90 Salamantis

Some folks love to be the mockers, but can't stand to be the mockees:

[Link: www.virtuousplanet.com...]

People are free to claim, and others are free to criticize their claims. And yet others are free to criticize their criticisms, and so on, in a free marketplace of ideas, until the cream rises to the top.

If folks are gonna dish it out, they should be prepared to take it.

Sorry, hit post before I finished my thought. Absolutely. But again, the icthus symbol represents ALL Christians, not just anti-evolutionists.

96 jaunte  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:02:10pm

re: #92 Skaught

I'm simply pointing out to you that feeling mocked by something not in your control is to give away the power over your own feelings to someone else.
You may consider that disrespectful, but I don't.

97 Skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:11:55pm

re: #96 jaunte

I'm simply pointing out to you that feeling mocked by something not in your control is to give away the power over your own feelings to someone else.
You may consider that disrespectful, but I don't.

It has nothing to do with whether or not I feel mocked. That's irrelevant to the issue. It's my understanding that LGF doesn't intend to attack the Christian faith. If this is the case, it's a good idea to not use a symbol that is often used as an attack.

98 jaunte  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:20:23pm

re: #97 Skaught

I'll go back to my first point; suggesting that the symbol is used as an attack is presuming to speak for the intent of the user, and for the feelings of all Christians. I don't agree with your assessment, in that case.

99 twincitiesgirl  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:20:28pm

I found both of the articles this morning but hesitated to post them since I didn't want to take away from Charles' well deserved award. I found out things about the modern day origin of icthus symbol I didn't know and about the Darwin spin off. Here they are, make of them what you will:

Bumper battle

Parodies of the ichthys symbol

100 jdog29  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:29:06pm

It didn't seem like an attack or disrespectful discourse when jaunte summed up your point.

Yes, the darwin fish is mocking Christianity by using the "Jesus Fish" symbol to illustrate a principle of evolution.

Eventhough I'm a Christian, I'm not offended and in reality am grateful to only have to endure mockers instead of TRUE PERSECUTION.

101 Skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:38:00pm

re: #98 jaunte

I'll go back to my first point; suggesting that the symbol is used as an attack is presuming to speak for the intent of the user, and for the feelings of all Christians. I don't agree with your assessment, in that case.

You're welcome to disagree. I'm simply speaking from experience.

102 Salamantis  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:42:39pm

re: #93 Skaught

Absolutely.

I find it hilarious that you here completely and publicly endorse my post, yet nevertheless you down-dinged it.

Seems a bit Janus-faced to me.

103 Skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:46:47pm

re: #100 jdog29

It didn't seem like an attack or disrespectful discourse when jaunte summed up your point.

I took it as disrespectful because it appeared to be purposely obtuse and sarcastic. This isn't about me, my feeling or whether or not I feel mocked. I spent several years working with punks, skinheads, goths and death metalheads, so my skin is sufficiently thick after that experience. I just know that a symbol carries a meaning, and even if the user doesn't intend that meaning, the viewer will most likely assume that meaning is intended, right or wrong. When I was in school, I had a classmate who really wanted to draw swastikas all over his books because he thought they looked "cool" and not because of any antisematic sentiments. Luckily I convinced him that regardless of his intent, he would likely cause offense. Same idea here.

104 Skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:49:35pm

re: #102 Salamantis

I find it hilarious that you here completely and publicly endorse my post, yet nevertheless you down-dinged it.

Seems a bit Janus-faced to me.

Read down further. You'll see that I endoresed your point in general, but not in this specific instance.

105 Salamantis  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:51:26pm

Maybe you can get the UN to outlaw Darwin Fish, much as they are attempting to outlaw any other criticism of religion under blasphemy laws. I personally find a faith that tolerates the Piss Christ and the Elephant Dung Madonna to be more secure in itself than one that riots and kills due to cartoons of its prophet and a critical mention in a Papal Regensburg speech.

106 Salamantis  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:52:18pm

In a free speech nation, no one can credibly claim the right not to be offended.

107 Skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:59:10pm

re: #105 Salamantis

Maybe you can get the UN to outlaw Darwin Fish, much as they are attempting to outlaw any other criticism of religion under blasphemy laws. I personally find a faith that tolerates the Piss Christ and the Elephant Dung Madonna to be more secure in itself than one that riots and kills due to cartoons of its prophet and a critical mention in a Papal Regensburg speech.

Sigh...I don't know if I just completely suck at communicating, or some of you aren't taking the time to see what I'm actually saying. I make a living with my writing, but granted promotional text isn't quite the same thing.

Again, I don't see anything in my statements that would suggest I want to outlaw, censor, restrict or in any way make ANY symbol forbidden. Again, if LGF wants to display it, by all means it should be free to do so in any way it chooses. Let me know if this works: If you don't intend offense, you may not want to use a symbol that many will assume is used offensively. That's all I'm saying! It seems people just want to fight here, though. I can't understand it.

108 Skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:59:44pm

re: #106 Salamantis

In a free speech nation, no one can credibly claim the right not to be offended.


Right, and I never suggested anything close to that.

109 Salamantis  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:59:58pm

Religions don't intrinsically and inherently deserve more respect than any other sources of assertions, be they science, political movement, or philosophy. Otherwise, Communism and Fascism could insulate themselves from criticism merely by donning a religious mantle. But then again, that's what the Islamofascists are already attempting.

We either have to grant all religions such insulation, or none of them.

110 Skaught  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 3:04:57pm

re: #109 Salamantis

Religions don't intrinsically and inherently deserve more respect than any other sources of assertions, be they science, political movement, or philosophy. Otherwise, Communism and Fascism could insulate themselves from criticism merely by donning a religious mantle. But then again, that's what the Islamofascists are already attempting.

We either have to grant all religions such insulation, or none of them.

No disagreement from me there at all.

111 Caboose  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 4:16:39pm

If I could get one of those LGF-fishies made up in chrome-green metalized plastic, I'd stick one on the back of the minivan! A potential LGF fund raiser...

112 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 4:48:28pm

re: #81 Skaught

I didn't suggest that I was speaking on behalf of all Christians. But as a Christian, who knows other Christians, I do have an understanding of how the "Darwin Fish" is perceived. Having known people with the "Darwin Fish" on their cars, I also know the intent behind it as well.

"How many representations does it need" is irrelevant to the fact that the icthus does represent Christians in general, not just "anti-evolutionists". I haven't missed any point, since the mockery that the "Darwin Fish" implies is not as limited as you wish it to be. LGF may not intend it, but the symbol does mock Christianity in general since the icthus represents Christianity in general.

My point, that I think you've missed is, if LGF does not intend to mock Christinity in general, it's best not to use a symbol that does that.

As I said regarding bumper stickers, I can rephrase so that you might appreciate your thin skin a bit better; I don't respect anyone that feels they have to wear their religion on their sleeve.

That applies, of course to those who go as far as wearing a uniform, be it FLDS, Muslim or whatever.

As to the mocking, what makes you think the people who post a fish on their cars are not saying something to those who don't?

113 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 5:44:58pm

re: #88 Skaught

For the third time, my point is that if LGF doesn't intend to mock Christianity in general, it would be a good idea to not use a symbol that is perceived as mocking Christianity in general.

It's harder than you might think to express one's feelings on certain things without offending some people. For example, the Jesus fish is offensive to some people too. It is often seen as a kind of territorial marker for a certain kind of in-your-face Christianity, the sort that is probably most likely to not only embrace creationism but also want it taught to other people's children in public school. This is no doubt part of the reason why some pro-evolution Christians and atheists sport this item on their bumpers.

If it's not a good idea to knowingly cause offence by using a
Darwin fish then it's not a good idea to knowingly cause offence by using a Jesus fish either.

114 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 5:46:13pm

re: #113 Jimmah

This is no doubt part of the reason why some pro-evolution Christians and atheists sport the Darwin fish on their bumpers.

PIMF

115 Sharmuta  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 6:08:21pm

Skaught-

I think you are reading more into the intent of other people than is wise. I think the intent of Mr. Marcus at Founding Bloggers was to show some appreciation, not mock anyone. You are twisting the gesture into something I don't think exists.

The Darwin Fish you see on cars is taking the Christian fish and turning it into something meant to mock Christians, in your opinion. I can concede that point to you, though I myself am not sure that's true of every person with such a decal on their car, but that's another matter.

In this case however, the Darwin Fish is based off of a symbol that represents this blog, which is not a religion, and was intended by the person who created it to be a compliment and not an insult as this was clearly stated by Mr. Marcus. You're also jumping to the conclusion that this Darwin Football will be the new logo at LGF when nothing has been posted by our host to suggest such a thing.

That you would think this compliment was intended to mock anyone is very telling, imo. It is a distortion on your part, and those who participate on evolution threads know, distortions are what creationists use to advance their agenda. If that is not your intent, then you are doing a poor job.

116 Sharmuta  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 6:16:22pm

re: #107 Skaught

I make a living with my writing, but granted promotional text isn't quite the same thing.

At least you're not a biochemist.

117 notutopia  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 6:17:14pm

What a cool and unique logo and a righteous compliment to Charles and LGF! I want one as a bumpersticker for my Harley!

118 hopperandadropper  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 6:21:03pm

re: #36 Ward Cleaver

Good one, Ward. But can you throw a spiral with it?

119 hopperandadropper  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 6:23:42pm

re: #77 skaught

Those who don't want to be mocked should first strive to make themselves and their fellow travelers less mock-worthy. The Darwin fish makes a particular point. If it doesn't apply to you, then don't worry about it. If it does apply to you, then you deserve to feel insulted. What about a fish that says "Galileo" inside?

120 Mr Secul  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 6:25:19pm

I don't mind showing the fish as a a statement of opposition to teaching Creationism in schools.

I agree that there are Muslim Creationists but in America the 'alternatives' to evolution are being pushed by Christian fundamentalists so I think that the Darwin fish is appropriate.

It can also be seen as a statement of Christian opposition to fundamentalist interpretations of Christ's message.

I don't see it as anti-Christian.

121 Sharmuta  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 6:26:25pm

re: #120 Mr Secul

I like your new avatar!

122 outsidephilly  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 6:28:28pm

I realize I'm 'late' to this thread, however, I'd like to say:
Congratulations Charles!

Your tireless work defending common sense, has certainly helped to open my eyes!

123 Mr Secul  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 6:34:11pm

re: #121 Sharmuta

I like your new avatar!

Thank you :-)

I thought that the background would be transparent. I used a really old copy of Paintshop Pro (version 4) and told it to use the background color for transparency but it doesn't seem to have worked.

I may make another one when I have access to some better software.

But maybe the avatar code doesn't do transparency.

124 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 6:39:49pm

re: #115 Sharmuta

It's hard to say anything about the religious right/creationists etc without someone popping up with accusations that we are mocking/attacking all of Christianity. It's like an attempt to use Christianity as a kind of human shield. It reminds me of self appointed Muslim spokesmen asserting that the Muhammed cartoons were an insult to all Muslims everywhere.

There is a wide range of products available for those who want to mock Christianity per se; their intent is unmistakeable. The Darwin fish on the other hand, in affirming evolution, targets the creationists, not Christianity as a whole.

125 twincitiesgirl  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:03:27pm

re: #112 Naso Tang

As I said regarding bumper stickers, I can rephrase so that you might appreciate your thin skin a bit better; I don't respect anyone that feels they have to wear their religion on their sleeve.

That applies, of course to those who go as far as wearing a uniform, be it FLDS, Muslim or whatever.

As to the mocking, what makes you think the people who post a fish on their cars are not saying something to those who don't?

I always thought bumper stickers/decals/etc, were a bad idea. 1) Most of them are esthetically unpleasing. 2) Your driving is sure to annoy someone and thereby is counterproductive to whatever idea your sticker is promoting. (too many examples to mention)

My favorite bumper sticker is too vulgar to for me to use:
Unless You're a Hemorrhoid, Stay Off My Ass!

126 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:18:31pm

re: #125 twincitiesgirl

There was a study recently (to the extent that one can believe "studies") that concluded that people that had bumper stickers (of any sort) were far more likely to be express road rage behavior than those who did not.

In any case, I believe it enough to try not to piss off some drivers, on that basis alone.

127 Salamantis  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:21:30pm

I think a Darwin Fish would be an eminently appropriate symbol for Christians who accept evolution; both ideas are there.

128 tyree  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:24:34pm

Don't do it, it's a trap.

The Darwinian Fish is used almost universally as a slap in the face to Christians. Insisting that the Theory of Evolution "proves" that God does not exist is how all of this got started.

129 twincitiesgirl  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:27:54pm

re: #127 Salamantis

I think a Darwin Fish would be an eminently appropriate symbol for Christians who accept evolution; both ideas are there.

I'd rather see Charles' symbol since it would lead people to a place where they can learn about the evolution in a non-threatening way.

130 tyree  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:32:11pm

121 Sharmuta, if beg to differ. The fish, especially the stylized Greek symbol, is used by all Christians. It abuse by the anti-Christian evolutionists has been promoted as a mockery of a holy symbol. You may not intend it that way, but most of the people I know who display that symbol know they are mocking a holy symbol, and that is why they do it. If a non-offensive symbol could be used it would be much better.

131 twincitiesgirl  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:33:42pm

re: #126 Naso Tang

There was a study recently (to the extent that one can believe "studies") that concluded that people that had bumper stickers (of any sort) were far more likely to be express road rage behavior than those who did not.

In any case, I believe it enough to try not to piss off some drivers, on that basis alone.

Agreed, I've never used them for the same reason you give. It's interesting to know about the road rage connection. I have my own recent freaky experiences with this, just prior to the election. On two separate occasions elderly women who looked at least 90 were driving so fast, weaving in and out of traffic that I quickly got out of their way. They both were supporting Obama stickers and driving Volvo's. True story!

132 twincitiesgirl  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:34:45pm

re: #129 twincitiesgirl

I'd rather see Charles' symbol since it would lead people to a place where they can learn about the evolution in a non-threatening way.

too tired to notice

133 twincitiesgirl  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:44:32pm

re: #131 twincitiesgirl

Agreed, I've never used them for the same reason you give. It's interesting to know about the road rage connection. I have my own recent freaky experiences with this, just prior to the election. On two separate occasions elderly women who looked at least 90 were driving so fast, weaving in and out of traffic that I quickly got out of their way. They both were supporting sporting Obama stickers and driving Volvo's. True story!

Ok, it's time to take a break....congratulations again to Charles.

134 Sharmuta  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:53:57pm

re: #130 tyree

If a non-offensive symbol could be used it would be much better.

How about a green football? Can we use that?

135 jaunte  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:55:50pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

Using the green of Mother Gaia on the symbol of a violent, war-celebrating, land-capturing sport like football is a mockery of the Earth Mother. You had best be cautious.
/

136 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:58:41pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

How about a green football? Can we use that?

Football? Football is haram! Now you're attacking all muslims/

137 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 8:23:43pm

re: #130 tyree

121 Sharmuta, if beg to differ. The fish, especially the stylized Greek symbol, is used by all Christians. It abuse by the anti-Christian evolutionists has been promoted as a mockery of a holy symbol. You may not intend it that way, but most of the people I know who display that symbol know they are mocking a holy symbol, and that is why they do it. If a non-offensive symbol could be used it would be much better.

There are plenty of Christians here. Why don't you ask how many of them have this bumper sticker and why they feel they have to display it on their rears?

As to a Darwin symbol (which can hardly be better designed than as a fish with legs), I don't advocate it on anyone's ass, but I do suggest that those who would feel offended on seeing it have a damned fragile confidence in their own beliefs.

138 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 8:24:36pm

I don't get it. Just how the fork is a fish with feet supposed to be an intentional slap at christians? I think this is a case of people seeking to be offended by something, and (big shocker) finding it.

As I understand it, the fish was a secret symbol used to identify oneself as christian without openly stating such in certain hostile communities. What if they chose to use a stylized pig instead? Would we instead be hearing outrage over a "slap in the face to all christians" when someone depicts a pig with wings?

Heh, I guess it's a good thing that the Romans used a "t" shaped construct to crucify people on, rather than the traditional "x" shaped construct. How would anyone be able to identify an upside down "x", and thus be properly outraged?

139 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 8:25:13pm

re: #136 Jimmah

Football? Football is haram! Now you're attacking all muslims/

You might need to explain how the color green has significance in that regard....

140 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 8:26:23pm

Another plug for this programme, in case anyone missed it:

Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life - 1/6 (watch in HD). Narrated by David Attenborough. First shown a few weeks ago on BBC1.

Youtube Video
141 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 8:29:08pm

re: #139 Naso Tang

You might need to explain how the color green has significance in that regard....

Yes I should have mentioned that wrapping the green of Islam around such a haram object makes for double-blasphemy.

142 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 8:49:55pm

Seriously, it'll be a cold day in hell before I give CAIR a pass on it's grievance theater shenanigans. Why should I be expected to do so others?

143 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:48:16pm
144 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 11:40:09pm

re: #143 dukecav

Man...Am I the only one who feels this site is jumping the shark on the whole creation thing?

Nope, there are plenty of people who think this. Just like there are plenty of people who think the threat of radical, fundamentalist islam is overblown. Just like there are plenty of people who think 9/11 was an "inside job". Doesn't mean that they, or you, are right.

Its like Andrew Sullivan's torture mime...

WTF? What the hell is a torture mime? Is this one?

Enough already.....Lets move on to something important.

Tell me, what subject do you think is "more important". You can answer that here, or you could, you know, do so on your OWN FUCKING BLOG!

145 justadot  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:24:08am

re: #143 dukecav

Andrew Sullivan's torture mime

Heh.

146 Salamantis  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:45:50am

dukecav
Karma: -1
Registered since: Jul 21, 2007 at 6:08 pm
No. of comments posted: 1
No. of links posted: 0

This sleeper sure took a while to awaken and post its first complaint. Guess the babble of the brook under the bridge keep it soothed to sleep.

147 Salamantis  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:59:15am

re: #144 Slumbering Behemoth

Tell me, what subject do you think is "more important". You can answer that here, or you could, you know, do so on your OWN FUCKING BLOG!

We also hear this same 'not important' or 'not relevant' complaints about Islamocreationist Adnan Oktar and his Harun Yahya's crescents-across-the-ocean connections with the Discovery Institute, and about Brussels Journal, Gates of Vienna, and Atlas Shrugged turning a blind eye as euroneonazis piggyback on the credibility of Europe's, and increasingly of America's, jihadi movements, while simultaneously destroying that credibility with their fascist parasitic presence. Move along, nothing to see here...until we finish getting what we want out of it and it's too late for you to do anything about it...

But we will refuse to avert our eyes and turn away whenever and wherever malevolent manipulators are making useful tools out of naive and gullible idiotarians.

148 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:05:40am

re: #146 Salamantis

Doubly interesting: Looking at the time stamp on its comment, this long dormant poster made its very first comment more than twelve hours after this topic was posted, and while there were five other "more important" topics posted that had nothing to do with this subject.

"Seek (offense), and ye shall find".

149 tyree  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 7:56:19am

138 Slumbering Behemoth

You seriously don't understand how taking a groups symbol and changing it can be taken as an insult?

150 Sharmuta  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 9:25:22am

re: #149 tyree

If anyone should be offended in this case it's Charles and Cox and Forkum and not you. That is unless you want to claim green footballs as being a symbol for Christianity.

151 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 9:54:30am

re: #149 tyree

138 Slumbering Behemoth

You seriously don't understand how taking a groups symbol and changing it can be taken as an insult?

Thy shalt not make graven images of the holy Fish(c)(TM) or there shall be much seething and whining across the land by creationists and other aggressive Christians.

152 tremblur  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 3:15:08pm

...still scratching my head over claims that creationists are trying to get "creationism taught in public school." Patently false.

153 Salamantis  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 3:45:42pm

re: #152 tremblur

...still scratching my head over claims that creationists are trying to get "creationism taught in public school." Patently false.

Patently TRUE, in at least a dozen states where bills allowing ID, the Disco Institute propaganda-PR labeled doppelganger of creationism to be taught in public high school science class, are being submitted to their respective state legislatures. And the Disco Institute continues to craft the bills before submission. Denying what these religiously dogmatic theocrats are trying to do to other peoples' kids won't fly, when the bills themselves are a matter of PUBLIC RECORD, and so are the identities of those who are sponsoring and advocating them.

154 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 4:09:03pm

re: #153 Salamantis

Either he somehow just didn't notice any of this, despite reading and participating in many creationism threads in which this kind of information has already been discussed, or he is just a flat out LIAR like so many other creationists we have seen here.

155 Mr Secul  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 7:02:08am

re: #152 tremblur

Patently true and you know it.


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