There was good news from Iraq yesterday; the US announced through Vice President Joe Biden that the two most senior leaders of Al Qaeda in Iraq, who masterminded numerous terrorist attacks against Iraqis and Americans, have been terminated in a joint effort by Iraqi and US security forces: Statement by The Vice President on Iraq.
3 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:36:13pm |
re: #1 ralphieboy
Can we go home now?
No, we broke it, we bought it. I wish we would never have gone, but I do not see pulling out now as making things better.
| 4 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:36:47pm |
Statement by The Vice President on Iraq.
And Biden didn't appear to insert his foot in his mouth even a little!
| 5 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:38:15pm |
Good news, but it doesn't mean shit if we can't leave, and frankly, we can't leave.
When my dog shits on the floor, I rub his nose in it. I wish we could do the same to every single simpering coward that authorized the use of military force in Iraq, starting with Bush.
| 7 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:42:36pm |
re: #3 LudwigVanQuixote
50,000 troops of about 120,000 are scheduled to leave by end of August. A step in the right direction.
| 8 |
darthstar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:44:02pm |
Confirming the kills BEFORE releasing a statement? I thought Vice Presidents were supposed to claim that we had the bad guys in their 'last throes' whenever asked, regardless of the facts on the ground.
That hopey-changey shit is pretty cool.
| 9 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:44:56pm |
Leftist Activist Cindy Sheehan Attacks Drone Manufacturers
Apparently, using drones, which keeps our troops safer, means the human cost on our side is lower. Since we aren't suffering as many casualties, its harder for them to get support for their anti-war message.
| 10 |
avanti Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:45:45pm |
Watched the discussion about this on H.A. yesterday. The general consensus was to thank Bush and happiness that Obama did not get wind of it in time to stop it. The ODS is strong out there.
| 11 |
jc717 Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:46:17pm |
It's encouraging that a secular alliance seems to have won the most votes in the recent elections. I was concerned that our involvement would replace a secular dictatorship with a theocratic democracy. Thus far, it seems, that hasn't happened.
| 12 |
avanti Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:47:04pm |
re: #7 Rightwingconspirator
50,000 troops of about 120,000 are scheduled to leave by end of August. A step in the right direction.
Down to under 100,000 as we speak.
| 13 |
darthstar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:49:05pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Leftist Activist Cindy Sheehan Attacks Drone Manufacturers
Apparently, using drones, which keeps our troops safer, means the human cost on our side is lower. Since we aren't suffering as many casualties, its harder for them to get support for their anti-war message.
I used to support Cindy Sheehan, and still sympathize with her for the loss of her son, but she went off the rails a couple of years ago and now I just want her to go away.
| 14 |
MrSilverDragon Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:49:22pm |
Props to our military for doing a most difficult job in a very difficult situation.
*salute*
| 15 |
wrenchwench Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:51:43pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Leftist Activist Cindy Sheehan Attacks Drone Manufacturers
Apparently, using drones, which keeps our troops safer, means the human cost on our side is lower. Since we aren't suffering as many casualties, its harder for them to
get support for their anti-war messagemake more Cindy Sheehans.
IMHO, a good thing.
| 16 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:52:17pm |
re: #5 Fozzie Bear
Good news, but it doesn't mean shit if we can't leave, and frankly, we can't leave.
When my dog shits on the floor, I rub his nose in it. I wish we could do the same to every single simpering coward that authorized the use of military force in Iraq, starting with Bush.
Amen brother - and that goes to all the Dems who voted for this too. I detest Bush, but I always thought well, he was just a moron, so it isn't as bad as someone like Hillary voting for the war when she was smart enough to know better.
| 17 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:55:02pm |
re: #7 Rightwingconspirator
50,000 troops of about 120,000 are scheduled to leave by end of August. A step in the right direction.
I hear that. My fear about this is that we leave and it all goes immediately to shit at the hands of the Iranis. Iran's game here is clearly to get a nuke, wait for us to leave and then tke over. We have no chance f going back then to clean up with an Irani nuclear threat.
The only good thing about Iraq is direct threat of pressure on Iran. We simply can't leave at the moment.
Or if we did completely take out the Irani nuclear threat, I mean in a make the rubble bounce sort of way, I would be quite happy to let them have Iraq as a consolation prize.
| 18 |
Jeff In Ohio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:55:08pm |
re: #5 Fozzie Bear
Good news, but it doesn't mean shit if we can't leave, and frankly, we can't leave.
When my dog shits on the floor, I rub his nose in it. I wish we could do the same to every single simpering coward that authorized the use of military force in Iraq, starting with Bush.
It would most likely be as good a training technique for the humans as the dog, which is not very good at all. I personally get complete satisfaction out of rubbing peoples noses in their shit, but I find they just get defensive and more stupid.
Maybe a snack and a pat on the head?
| 19 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:55:39pm |
Would it be classless to post "Another one bites the dust?"
Terrorists are out to cause pain to the most vulnerable of our society, if they can.
| 20 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:55:57pm |
re: #18 Jeff In Ohio
I was thinking more along the lines of a trial at the Hague.
| 21 |
webevintage Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:56:40pm |
re: #10 avanti
Watched the discussion about this on H.A. yesterday. The general consensus was to thank Bush and happiness that Obama did not get wind of it in time to stop it. The ODS is strong out there.
I love how those asses want to ascribe anything well-done as a left over from the Bush administration, but get pissed off if anyone points out that maybe some of our economic suck could also be part of that legacy.
| 22 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:57:08pm |
re: #13 darthstar
I used to support Cindy Sheehan, and still sympathize with her for the loss of her son, but she went off the rails a couple of years ago and now I just want her to go away.
Heard a more in depth report on this on the radio earlier. She's gone completely insane (not a far trip in her case). You lose your kid and become anti-war, fine. Sorry for your loss, but I politely disagree. Saying we need to stop using an effective weapon because its unfair to the enemy and if more of our people were put in harms way, it would end the war sooner? Get the fuck out of my sight, you crazy bitch.
| 23 |
darthstar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:58:34pm |
re: #22 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Heard a more in depth report on this on the radio earlier. She's gone completely insane (not a far trip in her case). You lose your kid and become anti-war, fine. Sorry for your loss, but I politely disagree. Saying we need to stop using an effective weapon because its unfair to the enemy and if more of our people were put in harms way, it would end the war sooner? Get the fuck out of my sight, you crazy bitch.
I think she's about three steps away from turning into a Teabagger. And the irony of that, of course, is that they're crazy enough to accept her into their fold. Hell, Greta "I just bit into a turd" Van Sustern would be begging her for an interview.
| 25 |
AK-47% Tue, Apr 20, 2010 12:59:19pm |
Drones are easy to pick on: impersonal, smack of Military-Industrial Complex, etc...
| 26 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:00:09pm |
But wait, i thought Obama loved the terrorists?
| 27 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:01:26pm |
Sheehan is a loony, but she is part and parcel of the inevitable consequences of war: broken and lost human beings. Her son died for absolutely no good reason. Some people can't handle that kind of meaningless loss.
Having said that, one of her friends needs to calmly and quietly take her somewhere far away from cameras and keep here there, well medicated. She isn't helping her cause.
| 28 |
ArchangelMichael Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:01:55pm |
re: #25 ralphieboy
Drones are easy to pick on: impersonal, smack of Military-Industrial Complex, etc...
I wouldn't be surprised if some of it comes from "ZOMG!!11! SKYNET!!1!" kind of handwringing as well.
| 29 |
Shiplord Kirel Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:03:19pm |
Those whose perceptions are tied to the daily news cycle probably don't realize the extent of the change in Iraq over the last 4 years.
People are still dying there in wholesale lots, but in recent months this has been almost exclusively the result of AQ suicide bombing directed randomly against complete innocents. Contrast this with 2006, when private armies controlled large swaths of Baghdad, and many cities outright, and fought American and Iraqi troops in the streets. That isn't happening now.
This has not been business as usual, an endless cycle with new leaders ready to take over for the ones we have eliminated. There will indeed be replacement leaders but their ability to run the networks and execute their depraved tactics will be reduced by inexperience if nothing else. This action will materially help the people of Iraq by making the mass murderers' self-appointed mission that much harder.
There is no single action or achievement that will spell the end, no Nagasaki bomb or fall of Berlin. Each success in disrupting the terrorists chips away a little at their power, and their standing. The progress is measurable only over months and years.
| 30 |
Aceofwhat? Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:03:41pm |
re: #20 Fozzie Bear
I was thinking more along the lines of a trial at the Hague.
I, for one, don't believe the international community gets to judge any of my politicians...whether i agree with them or not. My politics stop at the water's edge.
I'm looking for company...
| 31 |
The Left Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:03:44pm |
OT, but here's Palin's base:
California senator complains of harassment from Palin fans
California State Senator Leland Yee, who has been battling a state university over disclosing Sarah Palin's speaking contract, complains in a press release today that he's been getting nasty emails and faxes.They include a fax with some really scatological, racist language and "a graphic of an American flag adorned pickup truck dragging a noose. The (very graphic) emails and fax are after the jump.
“It is quite disturbing that such racist and homophobic sentiment still exists in our country,” said Yee, who said he's forwarded the messages to the State Senate's sergeant-at-arms for investigation. “It is unfortunate acts like these that demonstrate why we must continue to be vigilant against hate and intolerance.”
From Yee's press release:
An expletive-laden fax received yesterday in the Senator’s San Francisco and Sacramento offices says, “To: JoBama Rectum Sniffer Fish Head Leland Yee” and then in all capital letters, “WERE YOU TO EXTRACT YOUR HEAD FROM TREASONOUS MARXIST NIG**R HUSSEIN OBAMA’S RECTUM, YOUR BRAIN WOULD STILL FUNCTION AT ITS PRESENT MUCH DIMINISHED LEVEL BUT AT LEAST THE NIG**R SH*T SMELL WOULD EVENTUALLY DISSIPATE.”
The fax, which included a graphic of an American flag adorned pickup truck dragging a noose, also states “FIGHTING The Marxist Nig**r Thug Hussein Obama” and “Safeguard the Constitution, Death of all Domestic Marxists!”
Another fax received by the Senator’s office with a similar graphic says, “NEW WEBSITE COMING SOON: lyeesucksobamasnig**ras*.com,” as well as “JoBama. HE IS BRAVE ENOUGH TO KILL OUR UNBORN, JUST NOT BRAVE ENOUGH TO CALL OUR ENEMIES WHAT THEY ARE: Muslim Terrorists!” The fax also includes a rifle scope targeting a shirt with the communist hammer and sickle symbol.
One of the phone messages left after hours in Yee’s office voicemail says, “You know, I heard that Senator Yee wants to nix Sarah Palin from speaking at Stanislaus State…Maybe we ought to have a homosexual with a long enough di*k to where he can stick it up his as* and fu*k himself while he is on stage giving a speech. That would be acceptable to Leland Yee. So, good thing you run in San Francisco ‘cause you’d never make it anywhere else.”
| 32 |
Aceofwhat? Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:05:06pm |
re: #31 iceweasel
ugh, i can't even read the whole thing...
| 33 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:05:09pm |
re: #30 Aceofwhat?
I, for one, don't believe the international community gets to judge any of my politicians...whether i agree with them or not. My politics stop at the water's edge.
I'm looking for company...
I would agree, if the consequences stopped at the water's edge too. This time, they didn't. Naked aggression on the international stage is not tolerated by the US, and should not be tolerated by any other nation.
| 34 |
Renaissance_Man Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:05:50pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Leftist Activist Cindy Sheehan Attacks Drone Manufacturers
Apparently, using drones, which keeps our troops safer, means the human cost on our side is lower. Since we aren't suffering as many casualties, its harder for them to get support for their anti-war message.
I am no supporter of Cindy Sheehan, nor do I believe in the Peace at All Costs ethos. However, that article attributes motives that are not in evidence, which is an insidious aspect of activism journalism.
The article strongly suggests that the motive for opposing drone warfare is just as you say - hoping for more US deaths so that the anti-war message will carry more weight. That sounds pretty evil. So evil, in fact, that it made me wonder if that's what they were actually saying. What made me even more suspicious was that the article didn't in fact include any statements or references to the people in question, just statements about their supposed beliefs from their opponents.
According to the Hood River Conference itself, their intent is to 'expose the accelerating arrival of robotic weapons and social control technologies', because 'some of the military's own experts have complained about the high civilian death toll from US drone strikes'.
I don't know if that's true. I doubt very much that this conference will have anything intelligent to say. I suspect very strongly that it is more or less what it sounds like - a bunch of unrealistic peaceniks talking about scary Terminatoresque fantasies about evil government robots being used to kill us and control our very lives. In other words, a fantasy not altogether different from what you might find at an average Tea Party. But I very much doubt that they are in fact holding a talk about how much they desperately want more Americans to die, as the article suggests.
| 35 |
Aceofwhat? Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:06:28pm |
re: #33 Fozzie Bear
I would agree, if the consequences stopped at the water's edge too. This time, they didn't. Naked aggression on the international stage is not tolerated by the US, and should not be tolerated by any other nation.
disagree on whether or not it was prudent to take down Saddam, but dude.
naked aggression on the international stage?
hoookay...
| 36 |
jvic Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:07:17pm |
re: #11 jc717
It's encouraging that a secular alliance seems to have won the most votes in the recent elections. I was concerned that our involvement would replace a secular dictatorship with a theocratic democracy. Thus far, it seems, that hasn't happened.
re: #17 LudwigVanQuixote
I hear that. My fear about this is that we leave and it all goes immediately to shit at the hands of the Iranis. Iran's game here is clearly to get a nuke, wait for us to leave and then tke over. We have no chance f going back then to clean up with an Irani nuclear threat.The only good thing about Iraq is direct threat of pressure on Iran. We simply can't leave at the moment.
Or if we did completely take out the Irani nuclear threat, I mean in a make the rubble bounce sort of way, I would be quite happy to let them have Iraq as a consolation prize.
I have never understood why we invaded a secular Arab state while leaving an Islamist dictatorship untouched next door (not to mention another across the Gulf). What was the grand strategery?
Maybe the plan was that Iran would be shocked and awed into capitulation while we were being strewn with roses and greeted as liberators in Iraq.
| 37 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:07:51pm |
re: #31 iceweasel
OT, but here's Palin's base:
I saw the actual fax. It is the most disturbing thing evah. There's a pdf floating around of it.
Drawing of noose behind truck with Obama's face in it.
disgusting, sick, crazy. yeah.
| 38 |
The Left Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:09:04pm |
re: #37 Stanley Sea
I saw the actual fax. It is the most disturbing thing evah. There's a pdf floating around of it.
Drawing of noose behind truck with Obama's face in it.
disgusting, sick, crazy. yeah.
I haven't seen the fax yet-- we should dig it up; Charles might want to do a post on it.
| 39 |
Jeff In Ohio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:09:58pm |
re: #31 iceweasel
Can you deny them their anger?
What about the children?
I'm just asking questions.
| 40 |
Digital Display Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:09:59pm |
re: #38 iceweasel
I haven't seen the fax yet-- we should dig it up; Charles might want to do a post on it.
Hi Ice!
Hope today finds you well
| 41 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:10:31pm |
re: #34 Renaissance_Man
I am no supporter of Cindy Sheehan, nor do I believe in the Peace at All Costs ethos. However, that article attributes motives that are not in evidence, which is an insidious aspect of activism journalism.
The article strongly suggests that the motive for opposing drone warfare is just as you say - hoping for more US deaths so that the anti-war message will carry more weight. That sounds pretty evil. So evil, in fact, that it made me wonder if that's what they were actually saying. What made me even more suspicious was that the article didn't in fact include any statements or references to the people in question, just statements about their supposed beliefs from their opponents.
According to the Hood River Conference itself, their intent is to 'expose the accelerating arrival of robotic weapons and social control technologies', because 'some of the military's own experts have complained about the high civilian death toll from US drone strikes'.
I don't know if that's true. I doubt very much that this conference will have anything intelligent to say. I suspect very strongly that it is more or less what it sounds like - a bunch of unrealistic peaceniks talking about scary Terminatoresque fantasies about evil government robots being used to kill us and control our very lives. In other words, a fantasy not altogether different from what you might find at an average Tea Party. But I very much doubt that they are in fact holding a talk about how much they desperately want more Americans to die, as the article suggests.
From an earlier protest she attended on drones
She called the use of drones "cowardly" and "immoral." She says she's concerned about all military uses of drones but specifically about their use by the CIA in Pakistan. She says drones have killed about 700 civilians.
"They are actually making themselves judge, jury and executioner," Ms. Sheehan said of the government officials who decide whether to fire missiles from the drones.
Among the protesters was a woman who held a sign that read "Drone bombing is terrorism with a bigger budget" and two Buddhist nuns from Massachusetts who beat drums and chanted a prayer for peace.
Also in the crowd were approximately two dozen people from the group Witness Against Torture, who wore orange jumpsuits and black hoods. The group has been in Washington all week for demonstrations.
Stephen Peterson of North Carolina, a 26-year Navy veteran, said Saturday's protest was his first.
"A drone attack is an execution without a trial," said Mr. Peterson, who wore a T-shirt with his message: "Drones are for cowards."
Without using drones, we would have to put troops on the ground to do their jobs. Putting more troops on the ground would put them in more danger. They're not coming right out and saying it, but thats exactly what they want.
| 43 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:12:10pm |
re: #36 jvic
I have never understood why we invaded a secular Arab state while leaving an Islamist dictatorship untouched next door (not to mention another across the Gulf). What was the grand strategery?
Maybe the plan was that Iran would be shocked and awed into capitulation while we were being strewn with roses and greeted as liberators in Iraq.
The Project for a New American Century
Go there, and read "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century". Then notice who the signatories are. Notice the date.
The plan definitely included Iran, but as zealots often do, the signers of that document had no clue how difficult it would be.
| 44 |
The Left Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:12:11pm |
re: #40 HoosierHoops
Hi Ice!
Hope today finds you well
Hey Hoops! How are you, sweetie? Jimmah and I finally made it to the Empire State Building; we may post some pics later. He was very brave and overcame his attack of vertigo. ;)
How are you and Winston?
| 45 |
ArchangelMichael Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:12:33pm |
re: #36 jvic
I have never understood why we invaded a secular Arab state while leaving an Islamist dictatorship untouched next door (not to mention another across the Gulf). What was the grand strategery?
Maybe the plan was that Iran would be shocked and awed into capitulation while we were being strewn with roses and greeted as liberators in Iraq.
Has to do with treaty violations, every single day for 12 years, that made the US and UK look like paper tigers.
| 46 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:12:38pm |
re: #31 iceweasel
Hey Hon! How goes it!
| 47 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:12:46pm |
re: #31 iceweasel
Unbeliebable.
| 48 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:13:00pm |
| 49 |
Jeff In Ohio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:13:25pm |
re: #45 ArchangelMichael
Has to do with treaty violations, every single day for 12 years, that made the US and UK look like paper tigers.
Bolded for emphasis.
| 50 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:14:00pm |
I reported my own link. I don't like it being here or anywhere.
| 51 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:14:25pm |
re: #45 ArchangelMichael
The list of nations currently in violation of various treaties is long. Which one should we invade first?
| 52 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:14:56pm |
re: #45 ArchangelMichael
So that's the reason du-jour?
| 53 |
The Left Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:15:05pm |
re: #42 Stanley Sea
Holy crap! The description in words really doesn't convey the hate in that fax.
For those who don't want to click, there's a drawing of a truck dragging a noose with Obama's head in the noose-- a clear reference to the murder of James Byrd who was dragged to death in GA for the crime of being black.
| 54 |
Jeff In Ohio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:15:12pm |
re: #51 Fozzie Bear
The list of nations currently in violation of various treaties is long. Which one should we invade first?
Is Belize on that list?
| 56 |
ArchangelMichael Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:15:56pm |
re: #52 Dreggas
So that's the reason du-jour?
No that's the actual reason for anyone not an anti-war kook, or a flag waving 'blow them all to hell' cowboy.
| 57 |
The Left Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:16:04pm |
re: #46 LudwigVanQuixote
Hey Hon! How goes it!
Hey there, you troublemaker. ;) What's happening? Jimmah says hi too.
| 58 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:16:57pm |
re: #36 jvic
I have never understood why we invaded a secular Arab state while leaving an Islamist dictatorship untouched next door (not to mention another across the Gulf). What was the grand strategery?
Maybe the plan was that Iran would be shocked and awed into capitulation while we were being strewn with roses and greeted as liberators in Iraq.
There was no proper plan. W. had a bug in has about Saddam since before his first election. It was personal, I will grant him that. However there was no plan. I remember him very clearly talking about how his goal was not to do "nation building" in Iraq before going in. Of course that was his failure from the start. Had we put enough boots on the ground from the start and not tried for "shock and awe" and actually secured water and electricity and the needs of the Iraqi people, we might have had a chance of making this more clean. We did not, by design, because Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney arrogantly assumed that the Iraqis would just roll over and welcome us and be good little doggies. The war was mismanaged from the top from the start in terms of any sort of viable exit strategy.
| 59 |
lawhawk Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:16:59pm |
re: #49 Jeff In Ohio
And the UN - 17 UN SCRs and no enforcement? Just the hope for yet another SCR (which would come off sounding even weaker than the previous 17 after being watered down by Saddam's backers like Russia and China). The enforcement regime and the sanctions were completely falling apart and OFF was being used to prop up the regime, instead of helping the Iraqi people via targeted sanctions against the regime's financial transactions.
| 60 |
Digital Display Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:17:03pm |
re: #48 LudwigVanQuixote
Hey Hoops!
Hi Ludwig! How goes everything?
I read something you wrote about eating Bagels earlier...How can you eat those Dangit?
Waiter..Bring me some bread as hard as a rock with cheese on it..And don't forget the steak knife!
*wink*
| 61 |
Renaissance_Man Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:17:34pm |
re: #41 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Maybe you're right. I'm just naturally suspicious of any article that seems to ascribe truly sociopathic motives to people without a lot of evidence.
| 62 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:18:05pm |
re: #57 iceweasel
Hey there, you troublemaker. ;) What's happening? Jimmah says hi too.
Hehe...
They really don't like it when I point out that they talk and act like McVeigh and that is treason and that the penalties for treason are harsh and rightly so, do they.
GOOD.
And hi to my best Scottish mate as well.
| 63 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:20:03pm |
re: #60 HoosierHoops
Hi Ludwig! How goes everything?
I read something you wrote about eating Bagels earlier...How can you eat those Dangit?
Waiter..Bring me some bread as hard as a rock with cheese on it..And don't forget the steak knife!
*wink*
Ahh that is a third stage bagel.
You do not understand the multirole nature of a bagel.
In stage one, it is lightly crisp on the outside and soft and chewy on the inside - yummy!
In stage two they are good as hockey pucks and large washers.
However, stage three is when they become Jewish Ninja Disk Weapons!
| 64 |
The Left Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:20:09pm |
Already posted this in spinoffs, but this is my favourite crazy wingnut story of the day:
GA Woman To State Judiciary Committee: DoD Implanted A Microchip Inside Me
You debate an odd bill, you hear some odd testimony. But this...
The Georgia House Judiciary Committee took up a bill last week that would "prohibit requiring a person to be implanted with a microchip," and would make violating the ban a misdemeanor. According to a report in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, one exchange from the hearing could have been ripped right from Dr. Strangelove.
The Journal-Constitution reports that things started getting weird when a woman who described herself as a resident of DeKalb County told the committee: "I'm also one of the people in Georgia who has a microchip." Apparently no lawmaker took this as a warning sign, and she was allowed to continue her testimony.
"Microchips are like little beepers," the woman told the committee. "Just imagine, if you will, having a beeper in your rectum or genital area, the most sensitive area of your body. And your beeper numbers displayed on billboards throughout the city. All done without your permission."
"Ma'am, did you say you have a microchip?" state Rep. Tom Weldon (R) asked the woman.
"Yes, I do. This microchip was put in my vaginal-rectum area," she replied.
No one laughed. State Rep. Wendell Willard (R), chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, asked her who had implanted the chip.
"The Department of Defense," she said.
Willard thanked the woman for her input, and the committee later approved the bill.
| 65 |
Aceofwhat? Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:20:19pm |
re: #59 lawhawk
And the UN - 17 UN SCRs and no enforcement? Just the hope for yet another SCR (which would come off sounding even weaker than the previous 17 after being watered down by Saddam's backers like Russia and China). The enforcement regime and the sanctions were completely falling apart and OFF was being used to prop up the regime, instead of helping the Iraqi people via targeted sanctions against the regime's financial transactions.
the lack of corresponding outrage about the nations who didn't want to enforce the SCR's because they were skimming too much from Saddam's oil is deafening...
| 66 |
Lidane Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:20:31pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Pfft. Whatever, Cindy. Drones help to keep the troops out of direct harm. That's a good thing.
I might have sympathized with her in the beginning, but by the time she was making nice with Hugo, I was over it.
| 67 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:21:41pm |
re: #64 iceweasel
Already posted this in spinoffs, but this is my favourite crazy wingnut story of the day:
GA Woman To State Judiciary Committee: DoD Implanted A Microchip Inside Me
Honey I already declared this the Georgia ASS CHIP legislation, and I pointed out that McVeigh believed he had a chip in his bottom as well. It is no secret that there is a convergence here.
| 68 |
Digital Display Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:21:47pm |
re: #44 iceweasel
Hey Hoops! How are you, sweetie? Jimmah and I finally made it to the Empire State Building; we may post some pics later. He was very brave and overcame his attack of vertigo. ;)
How are you and Winston?
we are doing great...I'd love to hang out at the Empire State Building observation deck and meet Beyonce.. Bitch won't return my phone calls!
LOL
| 69 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:22:09pm |
re: #17 LudwigVanQuixote
I think we both see that is not going to happen. Obama will "contain" a nuclear Iran. Not attack. IMHO.
| 70 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:22:48pm |
re: #69 Rightwingconspirator
I think we both see that is not going to happen. Obama will "contain" a nuclear Iran. Not attack. IMHO.
Yeah nothing good can come of that at all.
| 71 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:22:56pm |
re: #58 LudwigVanQuixote
There was, of course, a plan. It's just that the plan was written by ideologues who neither cared for nor were sufficiently competent to attend to the details sufficiently to allow for successful execution. Furthermore, we attacked a non-threat to our interests. THAT is the part that makes me so angry. It was done out of pure ideology, with nary a nod to pragmatic concerns.
I guess I'm not even really disagreeing with you, per se, but if you haven't already, check out the PNAC link I posted above. We had a "plan", it was just based in fantasy.
| 72 |
Aceofwhat? Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:23:23pm |
re: #68 HoosierHoops
we are doing great...I'd love to hang out at the Empire State Building observation deck and meet Beyonce.. Bitch won't return my phone calls!
LOL
she's too busy trying to calm down Jay-Z, who is realizing that he isn't going to land LeBron next year for the Brooklyn Nets!
| 73 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:24:01pm |
re: #61 Renaissance_Man
Maybe you're right. I'm just naturally suspicious of any article that seems to ascribe truly sociopathic motives to people without a lot of evidence.
Anyone who blames a tool for being cowardly or immoral is a nutcase. If you want to take that logic to the extreme, any sort of weapon the enemy can't compete against is cowardly and immoral.
| 74 |
Shiplord Kirel Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:24:35pm |
Biden's statement and the discussion of Cindy Sheehan highlight something that has been gnawing at me.
This is the willfull inability of today's far right to identify the opposition. To them, Obama and, by extension, Biden are insane radicals, Marxists, and Bolsheviks. They seem to be unaware that the actual left exists. If Obama is a red who wants to abolish capitalism, who was Howard Zinn? If the Democrats are Kumbaya singing peaceniks who want to abolish the military, who is Cindy Sheehan? Code Pink? If the Dems are traitors, who are John Walker Lindh and the detestable Adam Gadahn?
Do they not understand just how far these actual radicals are from the current administration? I submit that the leaders, the talk-show lords and the pandering politicians, do understand but they regard inflammatory (and frankly, crazy) smears as a better strategy than addressing reality. Some evidence suggests they may be right. This is a discouraging and frightful possibility but I can't make it go away just by ignoring it.
| 75 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:25:07pm |
re: #67 LudwigVanQuixote
I think they should have pulled out a doll and asked her to point to the place they put the chip in.
| 76 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:25:11pm |
Probably over-thinking this, but if I were implanting a chip on someone, I'd choose some place a little more practical. That area sees a lot of fluid and...um...physical stresses.
I would think some place like your upper arm, or maybe your back.
Crazy doesn't think, though, and that is certainly more...um...interesting.
| 77 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:25:41pm |
re: #71 Fozzie Bear
There was, of course, a plan. It's just that the plan was written by ideologues who neither cared for nor were sufficiently competent to attend to the details sufficiently to allow for successful execution. Furthermore, we attacked a non-threat to our interests. THAT is the part that makes me so angry. It was done out of pure ideology, with nary a nod to pragmatic concerns.
I guess I'm not even really disagreeing with you, per se, but if you haven't already, check out the PNAC link I posted above. We had a "plan", it was just based in fantasy.
To a hard science guy like me, a plan based on fantasy and lies is not a plan.
| 78 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:25:59pm |
re: #52 Dreggas
So that's the reason du-jour?
H. J. Res 114: Armed Forces Against Iraq
Authorizing use of military force in dealing with Iraq
The following is the complete text of the House Joint Resolution authorizing the President of the United States to use U.S. Armed Forces against Iraq.
| 79 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:26:08pm |
re: #75 Dreggas
I think they should have pulled out a doll and asked her to point to the place they put the chip in.
OK making me snort coffee on my monitor is not nice.
| 80 |
Renaissance_Man Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:26:22pm |
re: #73 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Anyone who blames a tool for being cowardly or immoral is a nutcase. If you want to take that logic to the extreme, any sort of weapon the enemy can't compete against is cowardly and immoral.
No, I definitely agree there. Just wondering to myself if it doesn't come from a crazy 'all war is bad, all military is bad' ideology, rather than a sociopathic 'Americans must die like dogs' ideology.
| 81 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:26:36pm |
re: #76 EmmmieG
It ties into the bizarre fascination of wingnuts with genitalia. I'm not sure why, but it always seems to come down to the naughty bits for these people.
| 82 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:26:40pm |
re: #74 Shiplord Kirel
In their minds Obama and the administration are just like the code-pinkers and the Zinn's and the rest and they want to associate Obama and his admin with these people despite the fact they are nothing like them.
| 83 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:27:40pm |
re: #81 Fozzie Bear
It ties into the bizarre fascination of wingnuts with genitalia. I'm not sure why, but it always seems to come down to the naughty bits for these people.
Not just wingnuts. Just crazy people.
| 84 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:28:28pm |
re: #81 Fozzie Bear
It ties into the bizarre fascination of wingnuts with genitalia. I'm not sure why, but it always seems to come down to the naughty bits for these people.
It's a victim fantasy. Genitals are sensitive. Being victimized through them puts one "up" on the victim/entitlement tree.
That and a large portion of the right hasn't been able to see their genitals for years because of their blubber.
| 86 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:29:19pm |
re: #80 Renaissance_Man
No, I definitely agree there. Just wondering to myself if it doesn't come from a crazy 'all war is bad, all military is bad' ideology, rather than a sociopathic 'Americans must die like dogs' ideology.
I don't think there's any question, opposition to drones comes from a desire to abolish war. Anyone who says that the bulk of this kind of thing comes from some kind of hatred for American soldiers is just as nuts as Cindy.
| 87 |
Digital Display Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:29:40pm |
re: #72 Aceofwhat?
she's too busy trying to calm down Jay-Z, who is realizing that he isn't going to land LeBron next year for the Brooklyn Nets!
I predict..and this is just me..That Wade will sign next year with the Cav's and King James stays in Cleveland..An unbeatable team.. I'm sick of seeing the King play guard..Wade would rock the Basketball world with the Cav's
| 88 |
ArchangelMichael Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:30:39pm |
re: #74 Shiplord Kirel
They should know better that this type of over the top nonsense never wins friends or influences people. Look at what happened to Churchill in 45. IIRC he went overboard with the negative campaigning and over the top hyperbole. He was calling Attlee and the Labour Party everything short of outright communists and was booted out of office just months after WW2 was over when his popularity was at a zenith.
| 89 |
Aceofwhat? Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:31:36pm |
re: #87 HoosierHoops
I predict..and this is just me..That Wade will sign next year with the Cav's and King James stays in Cleveland..An unbeatable team.. I'm sick of seeing the King play guard..Wade would rock the Basketball world with the Cav's
that'd be a dream team...hell, you and i could start and they'd still win with those two...(although my midrange jumper isn't too shabby;)
| 90 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:34:16pm |
re: #80 Renaissance_Man
No, I definitely agree there. Just wondering to myself if it doesn't come from a crazy 'all war is bad, all military is bad' ideology, rather than a sociopathic 'Americans must die like dogs' ideology.
Her own words: SlayStation By Cindy Sheehan
Don't get me wrong, I am not in favor of "Manned Aircraft Systems"
raining down bombs on civilians, but the idea of Murder by Joystick with the "Unmanned Aircraft Systems" (UAS,) is especially sickening to me.
UAS, more commonly known as "drones," are controlled from thousands of miles away and are increasingly becoming the new wave of the Air Force. The Air Force was recently devastated by Congress cutting off funding for the obsolete F22 fighter jet and is very excited about its robotic killers.
Even the names of drones are monstrous, such as: Predator and Reaper-The Grim Reaper drone-choosing who lives or who dies from an air conditioned bunker at Creech Air Force base thousands of miles away from the bombing site:
Thousands of miles away from the carnage;
Thousands of miles away from the screaming and dying;
Light years away from morality and compassion.
With reports stating that, from the top down, the US military is filled with Christian zealots, I wonder who "authorizes" Murder by Joystick? Does the 6th Commandment say: "Thou shalt not murder; unless you can pretend you're playing a video game?" The mass murder of the 21st century couldn't have been even remotely conceived of a few millennia ago.
War has become more deadly to persons but increasingly more depersonalized. Today, needless civilian deaths outweigh unnecessary military deaths by a 5 to 1 ratio, but are still referred to as: "Collateral damage." Our military has become even further depersonalized by the utilization of paid mercenaries.
She then rambles on about violent video games and concludes the robot overlords will rain down a nuclear apocalypse in 2047.
| 92 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:35:28pm |
re: #21 webevintage
I love how those asses want to ascribe anything well-done as a left over from the Bush administration, but get pissed off if anyone points out that maybe some of our economic suck could also be part of that legacy.
I'm encouraged at the success and at the fact that it shows Obama has some mettle and some military acumen of his own. I'm no fan of his health care "reform" but the drone campaign has been a bright spot and he deserves credit.
However the war started and whether it was a good idea or not, as long as you're fighting, you might as well fight smart. Drone strikes are also fighting clean. Very minimal collateral damage. Yes, I know, sometimes your intel is wrong and there is a tragic mistake. But tragedy is part of war and the best we can do is minimize it, and drones are one of the best ways to do that.
| 93 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:36:47pm |
Why does the discussion always divert to Cindy Sheehan? She has no validity to be included in this or any conversation.
| 94 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:37:49pm |
re: #78 Slumbering Behemoth
And all I am seeing there is reference to the WMD's. There was no proof that there were still WMD's and though I believed Colin powell at the time I only believed him because it was Colin Powell. The bottom line is there were no WMD's, former weapons inspectors said there weren't Saddam offered to allow them in and Bush went ahead with the war anyway.
For the record I supported Bush right up until then, I supported the initial invasion if only because it would get saddam's boot off the throat of the people. Add to that the fact that I wanted to see the DFH's suck on it when we succeeded (I had supported bush after 9-11). Instead it was more bull shit.
We'll be greeted as liberators, we'll be there less than a year, all of it was bull shit.
| 95 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:37:50pm |
re: #92 lostlakehiker
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that drones reduce civilian casualties or "collateral damage", relative to manned missions. None.
| 96 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:37:54pm |
re: #88 ArchangelMichael
What do you mean by 'never' wins friends or influences people? Vllams Belang would disagree with you, as would the fascist group that just gained seats in Hungary for the first time.
| 97 |
Renaissance_Man Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:37:56pm |
re: #88 ArchangelMichael
They should know better that this type of over the top nonsense never wins friends or influences people. Look at what happened to Churchill in 45. IIRC he went overboard with the negative campaigning and over the top hyperbole. He was calling Attlee and the Labour Party everything short of outright communists and was booted out of office just months after WW2 was over when his popularity was at a zenith.
Perhaps, but post-war Britain is a different population and a mindset from 21st century America. The 24/7 media coverage and ability to plug into a fantasy world where monolithic, leftist evil looms everywhere and only brave citizen heroes can stop it has the ability to create a cult-like mindset.
This year, for instance, the GOP will pick up seats in both House and Senate. They will not gain control of both, but it is plausible that they may gain control of the House. Nonetheless, any pickups at all will be seen as evidence that the strategy of demonisation and hyperbole is working. The GOP will be forced to become even more subservient to their media. And the crazy will only increase.
| 98 |
ArchangelMichael Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:38:34pm |
re: #90 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
She then rambles on about violent video games and concludes the robot overlords will rain down a nuclear apocalypse in 2047.
That's funny. SlayStation. In Bad Company 2 we say anyone using the UAV is "playing X-Box".
I still contend that a lot of the outrage against drones comes from people who have seen Terminator too many times and don't quite get just how far off self-aware artificial intelligence (that borders on being "alive" for lack of a better term) actually is, if it is even possible.
| 99 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:39:01pm |
re: #95 Fozzie Bear
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that drones reduce civilian casualties or "collateral damage", relative to manned missions. None.
Um, you mean vs. troops on the ground, or a plane in the air?
| 100 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:39:01pm |
re: #92 lostlakehiker
This is where I depart from some of my friends on the left. I'm all for drone's and using them the way they've been used, especially if it keeps a soldier from losing his/her life.
| 101 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:39:44pm |
re: #95 Fozzie Bear
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that drones reduce civilian casualties or "collateral damage", relative to manned missions. None.
On the flip side, their is zero chance of loosing your own men in a drone attack.
| 102 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:41:41pm |
re: #98 ArchangelMichael
It's about 50-70 years away, at most. The rate of advancement in computer science makes all other technical fields seem glacial in comparison. We will have sentient AI within a century.
Of course, this doesn't mean people with "Terminator" fantasies aren't out to lunch, but we are much, MUCH closer than you think to true AI.
| 103 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:42:30pm |
re: #94 Dreggas
And all I am seeing there is reference to the WMD's.
Yes, that is in there. But there is more to it than that. To say the resolution is strictly about WNDs is incorrect. If that is in fact what you are saying.
| 104 |
allegro Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:42:32pm |
re: #90 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Thousands of miles away from the carnage;
Thousands of miles away from the screaming and dying;
Light years away from morality and compassion.
Reading this brought to mind an episode of Star Trek where two factions had a virtual war going on for like 300 hundred years. When a place was virtually bombed, the residents of that area had to show up to be vaporized voluntarily. If they didn't, it was argued that the factions would then be forced back into a barbaric war where property was actually destroyed, etc. They were quite proud of their problem-solving accomplishment.
I think there is a point to be made that with the increasing distance, in every sense, of those who deploy the weapons and their victims, it lessens the moral questions that might arise if they actually had to experience the damage that was done.
| 105 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:43:18pm |
re: #102 Fozzie Bear
Um, we are not even close to proving that we could create 'true ai', unless you mean a biologically based one.
Where do you get the idea that we're close to true AI?
| 106 |
ArchangelMichael Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:43:47pm |
re: #96 Obdicut
What do you mean by 'never' wins friends or influences people? Vllams Belang would disagree with you, as would the fascist group that just gained seats in Hungary for the first time.
VB and BNP are both "reborn" incarnations of earlier parties that were more open in their xenophobia and racism. To get anymore support they had to change their names, play a shell game with other far right parties, and pretend to moderate their positions, so for awhile at least, they are trying to avoid openly being barking-moonbat-crazy.
| 107 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:44:04pm |
re: #102 Fozzie Bear
It's about 50-70 years away, at most. The rate of advancement in computer science makes all other technical fields seem glacial in comparison. We will have sentient AI within a century.
Of course, this doesn't mean people with "Terminator" fantasies aren't out to lunch, but we are much, MUCH closer than you think to true AI.
When do I get my damned flying car!!!!!
//
| 108 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:46:40pm |
re: #95 Fozzie Bear
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that drones reduce civilian casualties or "collateral damage", relative to manned missions. None.
I have to disagree with you. Respectfully, you are simply mistaken.
The single largest cause of collateral damage has historically been the need to drop large amounts of imprecise ordinance to destroy a target. The massive civilian casualties cause by the bombings of cities in the second world war is a fantastic example as were the massed artillery barrages of that period.
The more accurate one can be in putting fire on a target in real time - before the enemy can move, the few civilian deaths will result. Drones are marvelous at this. Had Iraq been fought Second World War style, there would have been vastly more deaths both civilian and of our soldiers.
Even with all of this increased targeting and instant response capability, there will inevitably be cases of friendly fire and civilian deaths.
Of course that is tragic. Of course it is terrible. However, the new technology has made that vastly less common.
| 109 |
ArchangelMichael Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:47:00pm |
re: #102 Fozzie Bear
It's about 50-70 years away, at most. The rate of advancement in computer science makes all other technical fields seem glacial in comparison. We will have sentient AI within a century.
Of course, this doesn't mean people with "Terminator" fantasies aren't out to lunch, but we are much, MUCH closer than you think to true AI.
"50 years away" is Scientist and Engineer-talk for vaporware that they have no idea if they will ever be able to figure out. Nuclear fusion power has been "50 years away" since the 1950s. It's like asking a contractor when your room addition is going to be done and he says "2 weeks".
| 110 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:47:04pm |
re: #106 ArchangelMichael
That's great, but it doesn't actually address what i said. Hell, look at Berluscuoni in Italy-- hyperbolic misrepresentation of the opposition can be perfectly good strategy, especially when you control a lot of media.
| 111 |
avanti Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:48:00pm |
O.T., a Studebaker friend send me a video about a youth economy run from 1954 that a Studebaker won with 55 miles per ton gallon. It's interesting because the 27 minute video shows how different we were way back in the 50. Not just the old cars, but shinny white kids, (no fast food), cheap gas, and a sappy narration. Lots of nostalgic scenery too.
| 112 |
jvic Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:48:02pm |
re: #58 LudwigVanQuixote
There was no proper plan...Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney arrogantly assumed that the Iraqis would just roll over and welcome us and be good little doggies. The war was mismanaged from the top from the start in terms of any sort of viable exit strategy.
That is astonishing because Bush and Cheney, as members of the Vietnam generation, had seen a military victory warp into political defeat.
The foregoing thought crossed my mind when I saw Bush strutting on the aircraft carrier, so my perceptions are not entirely hindsight.
While it remains possible that a cataclysm from the Middle East can be avoided, the previous administration has exposed the country to serious and unnecessary risk.
| 113 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:48:04pm |
re: #99 Obdicut
Um, you mean vs. troops on the ground, or a plane in the air?
Well, to make it a fair comparison, a plane.
re: #101 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
On the flip side, their is zero chance of loosing your own men in a drone attack.
True enough. Unless one has a heart attack from too many Twinkies, it's pretty damn safe for our boys.
If it were possible to make this point without reference to or sympathy for Cindy Sheehan, I do think robots/RC drones extend even further the mental/emotional distance between shooter and target. When there is no risk of losing soldiers, it becomes alot easier to order aggressive acts. That part makes me a bit uneasy, to be honest. (Once again, if this places me in agreement with Ms. Sheehan, it does so only for this strictly limited point.)
Rocks -> swords -> guns -> planes -> R/C planes
The "progress" of war has tended inexorably toward depersonalization of killing, and I don't think it's all good. I'm glad it increases the likelihood of my friends coming home intact, but it's a mixed bag, imo.
| 114 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:48:04pm |
re: #51 Fozzie Bear
The list of nations currently in violation of various treaties is long. Which one should we invade first?
Cute.
Some of the treaty violations included regular (nearly daily) attacks with surface to air missiles and AAA (anti-aircraft guns) on coaliton aircraft enforcing the Northern and Southern No-Fly zones. My buddies getting shot at on a daily basis.
| 115 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:48:28pm |
re: #95 Fozzie Bear
There is this...From human rights watch
Due to drones' small size relative to manned aircraft, and therefore limited payload, they typically carry small missiles.[10] These munitions have smaller warheads with limited collateral effects. For example, where a 500-pound bomb would destroy a house, a drone-launched missile can limit destruction to a specific room. Recent advances in drone-launched missiles have reduced the damage further by replacing the missile's anti-tank warhead with a fragmentation sleeve meant to destroy targets in the open, such as personnel or soft-skinned vehicles, while limiting collateral damage. Judging from the blast patterns and missile fragments found at the six attack scenes in this report, all of the missiles had an anti-personnel fragmentation sleeve.
| 116 |
really grumpy big dog Johnson Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:50:14pm |
Including all the worst post-invasion times in Iraq, primarily the first five years after the fall of Saddam's Baathist regime, the average death rate due to violent causes has been on the order of roughly one person in two thousand per year.
The rate has fallen dramatically in recent times. While there are still frequent suicide and other bombings and assassinations, the level is far below the peak that we've seen. And regardless of the motivations behind our invasion of that country, there are clear reasons to believe that the country is in better shape now than where it was before. Perhaps as many as a hundred thousand or a few more have lost their lives to violence in the past seven years, but Saddam Hussein himself on multiple occasions took a large chunk of as many lives away simply to show who was the boss.
And argue all you want about the "abomination" of our involvement in that war, with or without U.S. presence al-Qaeda in Iraq would have killed indiscriminately, possibly resulting in the most abominable pseudo-theocracy on the planet. Even if for all the wrong reasons, a lot of right has been accomplished, at much more than an inconsiderable cost, but tiny in comparison with so many conflicts in times past.
We owe no apologies for what was done in general, although perhaps some are owed due to specific instances of wrongdoing within that time span. And as of this moment, Iraq is surviving as an independent representative democracy even in not exactly flourishing. But our own struggles in the early years were hardly without widespread suffering and death on a comparable level to what Iraq has seen, even higher yet.
Let's wait a few years before assigning abject blame for atrocious criminal behavior regarding this action. The Iraqi people in general don't hate us any more or less than they ever did, and many are in much better shape now as a result of our "meddling" in their affairs.
| 117 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:52:07pm |
re: #113 Fozzie Bear
Well, to make it a fair comparison, a plane.
Well, there's lots of ways drones could do that. You can monitor operator fatigue a lot better when the operator isn't strapped into a jet (and potentially taking jumpy pill) but instead sitting at the base. Furthermore, you don't have to give the operator as much freedom in engagement and tactics, since his life is not actually at risk. In addition, drones can maintain a 24 hour presence in a way that planes cannot, so it gives greater opportunity for striking at people on the move instead of in civilian centers.
There's very little research to show that drones reduce collateral damage, because they're very new. Used intelligently, they definitely could.
| 118 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:53:04pm |
re: #93 Stanley Sea
She's nice and handy... Universally hated, and something related to Iraq that people can dump on the left instead of the right.
| 119 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:53:36pm |
re: #116 really grumpy big dog Johnson
Just because Iraq looks like it's a success now does not mean that we have the moral authority to invade any nation who's got a high death rate. If it does mean that, it would also imply we have a moral mission to do so.
I really don't get your argument from that statistic. Why is that a metric that shows the propriety of armed conflict?
| 120 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:53:46pm |
re: #113 Fozzie Bear
True enough. Unless one has a heart attack from too many Twinkies, it's pretty damn safe for our boys.
If it were possible to make this point without reference to or sympathy for Cindy Sheehan, I do think robots/RC drones extend even further the mental/emotional distance between shooter and target. When there is no risk of losing soldiers, it becomes alot easier to order aggressive acts. That part makes me a bit uneasy, to be honest. (Once again, if this places me in agreement with Ms. Sheehan, it does so only for this strictly limited point.)
Rocks -> swords -> guns -> planes -> R/C planes
The "progress" of war has tended inexorably toward depersonalization of killing, and I don't think it's all good. I'm glad it increases the likelihood of my friends coming home intact, but it's a mixed bag, imo.
What really gets to me is their statements calling drones "unfair".
As soon as someone bring up the question of "Is it fair?" in a military discussion, I know they are not really capable of having the discussion. There are plenty of grounds to challenge operations based on its morality, long term worth, the repercussions, etc. Fairness does not even enter into the equation.
| 121 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:53:59pm |
re: #118 windsagio
She's nice and handy... Universally hated, and something related to Iraq that people can dump on the left instead of the right.
She's like the left's Sarah Palin.
| 122 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:54:00pm |
| 123 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:54:07pm |
re: #117 Obdicut
The smaller warheads used are reducing collateral damage, as admitted by Human Rights Watch. Considering who they are that is fairly persuasive.
| 124 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:55:24pm |
re: #120 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Heh. A lot of German soldiers in WWII compared that the Americans had an unfair advantage in artillery. That always amuses me.
Any winning military strategy is pretty much unfair by definition.
| 125 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:55:37pm |
re: #121 rwdflynavy
She's like the left's Sarah Palin.
I don't see Cindy S. on every fricking website. I don't see her anywhere unless I look hard. Sister Sarah on the other hand....
No comparison, as usual.
| 126 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:56:09pm |
re: #121 rwdflynavy
Well let's not give her that much credit, she's like Palin as Quayle is like Kennedy.
| 127 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:56:22pm |
re: #125 Stanley Sea
I don't see Cindy S. on every fricking website. I don't see her anywhere unless I look hard. Sister Sarah on the other hand...
No comparison, as usual.
Not anymore, but she'd like to change that!
| 128 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:56:42pm |
re: #121 rwdflynavy
Palin/Sheehan 2012!
"A caribou in every pot, and asploding heads in every household".
| 129 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:56:47pm |
re: #116 really grumpy big dog Johnson
with or without U.S. presence al-Qaeda in Iraq would have killed indiscriminately, possibly resulting in the most abominable pseudo-theocracy on the planet.
Okay, this bit is just wrong. Al Queda was an enemy of Saddam. Can you explain what you meant, in case I got you wrong?
| 130 |
McSpiff Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:56:55pm |
re: #116 really grumpy big dog Johnson
I've heard this argument before, and its slightly disingenuous. Sure, the Iraqi people might be better off now that everything is all said and done, but that doesn't mean the ends justify the means. Same way banning tobacco or HFCS would be good for America, but I can't see many people here supporting that. People have rights, nations have sovereignty. Sometimes they do stupid things with rights, sometimes sovereign nations are assholes. But when that stupid is confined to their own homes or within their own borders, I support a hands off approach.
| 131 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:57:07pm |
re: #127 rwdflynavy
Sigh, your first comparison was clever, lets not get into the false equivalence business >>
| 132 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:58:47pm |
re: #131 windsagio
Sigh, your first comparison was clever, lets not get into the false equivalence business >>
Sarah Palin is much more damaging to conservatives than Cindy Sheehan is to liberals.
| 133 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:58:49pm |
re: #130 McSpiff
The US is special and has the right to attack anyone they want, 'cuz if we do it it must be for their own good!
| 134 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:59:05pm |
re: #124 Obdicut
Heh. A lot of German soldiers in WWII compared that the Americans had an unfair advantage in artillery. That always amuses me.
Any winning military strategy is pretty much unfair by definition.
I forget which book it was but a young soldier kept asking a veteran about glorious tales of the battlefield and fighting man to man on the field of honor. The veteran responded with war is sneaking into the enemies camp while he is asleep, slitting his throat and making it home in one piece before anyone else knew what happened. I wish I could remember where I read that.
| 135 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 1:59:08pm |
re: #105 Obdicut
Um, we are not even close to proving that we could create 'true ai', unless you mean a biologically based one.
Where do you get the idea that we're close to true AI?
We are very, very close. When I get home, i'll post links to some of the work being done which I have saved there. There remain two essential problems left to solve: the availability of sufficient computing power, and the development of a functional cortical model. The first will happen within 20-30 years, the second will take a bit longer. There is nothing magical about intelligence or sentience, it's just math. We know meat (brains) can do the math, and so too in time will computers.
re: #109 ArchangelMichael
"50 years away" is Scientist and Engineer-talk for vaporware that they have no idea if they will ever be able to figure out. Nuclear fusion power has been "50 years away" since the 1950s. It's like asking a contractor when your room addition is going to be done and he says "2 weeks".
Nuclear fusion hasn't been reliably producing advances at an ever increasing rate. It isn't vaporware, it's inevitable, provided we don't destroy ourselves first. The mathematical models already exist in pieces, it's just that sufficient computing power to adequately test them doesn't. That will change, and when we get closer to around 10^16 effective units of computation per second (the ballpark at which our brains operate) we will be able to test them more thoroughly.
Nuclear fusion is problematic because we don't know how to do it reliably and controllably (and with a net output) outside the sun. Every vertebrate on this planet is carrying within it a working model of some form of intelligence. We will replicate it in time, I think, we just need time to do so.
| 136 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:00:23pm |
re: #119 Obdicut
By that logic we should have invaded Sudan and other large parts of Africa.
| 137 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:00:27pm |
re: #132 rwdflynavy
Sarah Palin is much more damaging to everyone than Cindy Sheehan is to liberals.
Fixt.
Also, she's much higher profile. Sheehan is essentially one of those stupid leftovers that mainly comes up when one side wants to attack the other. Palin is still something real.
| 138 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:01:15pm |
re: #136 Dreggas
I don't think Obdi actually agrees with the logic he's outlining >>
| 139 |
really grumpy big dog Johnson Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:01:43pm |
re: #119 Obdicut
The metric was simply included as an argument opposing the viewpoint that Iraq has been a complete bloodbath for those who have been there. In some places much blood has been spilled. In many others very little.
Thank you for asking. It never would have occurred to me that someone would consider my use of statistics as some sort of attempt at justification for that war. Those are simply facts related to the consequences of our actions, although no one can estimate reliably the statistics had we left Iraq alone. I believe the fact that we went to war stands up to moral scrutiny, even if the reasons why we engaged in war in the first place may not.
| 140 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:02:03pm |
re: #130 McSpiff
I've heard this argument before, and its slightly disingenuous. Sure, the Iraqi people might be better off now that everything is all said and done, but that doesn't mean the ends justify the means. Same way banning tobacco or HFCS would be good for America, but I can't see many people here supporting that. People have rights, nations have sovereignty. Sometimes they do stupid things with rights, sometimes sovereign nations are assholes. But when that stupid is confined to their own homes or within their own borders, I support a hands off approach.
Sadam sacrificied his nation's sovereignty when he invaded Kuwait and got his ass kicked. He failed to abide by the sanctions and committed hostile acts on a nearly daily basis against our flyers in the No fly zones.
| 141 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:02:14pm |
re: #112 jvic
That is astonishing because Bush and Cheney, as members of the Vietnam generation, had seen a military victory warp into political defeat.
The foregoing thought crossed my mind when I saw Bush strutting on the aircraft carrier, so my perceptions are not entirely hindsight.
While it remains possible that a cataclysm from the Middle East can be avoided, the previous administration has exposed the country to serious and unnecessary risk.
Yep... And this is pretty much what absolutely everyone else involved in policy said around the world.
Our real chance to truly change Iraq was in the first Gulf war had we turned Iraq over to the governance of the arab alliance. That would have tied the Arabs up dealing with Iraq and taken pressure off of Israel while putting more permanent and lasting pressure on Iran while leaving our forces free from the second conflict.
The biggest blunder in Iraq actually rests with Bush senior. I have absolutely no idea why he betrayed the opposition in Iraq and left Saddam in power.
| 142 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:03:51pm |
re: #120 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
What really gets to me is their statements calling drones "unfair".
As soon as someone bring up the question of "Is it fair?" in a military discussion, I know they are not really capable of having the discussion. There are plenty of grounds to challenge operations based on its morality, long term worth, the repercussions, etc. Fairness does not even enter into the equation.
Yeah I agree with you there. War itself isn't "fair". That doesn't mean it isn't even less "fair" to do it ineptly. (Or rather, in a more sloppy way)
Fairness is sort of beside the point when you are speaking of the killing of men. It is what it is, and sometimes, it is necessary.
| 143 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:04:15pm |
re: #141 LudwigVanQuixote
I know why!
The Arab states were absolutely against him overthrowing the Iraqi government, and the coalition would have collapsed if he tried.
They didn't wanna try to control Iraq either, probably knew that Saddam was doing a pretty effective job of keeping the Kurds and Shi'ites supressed.
| 144 |
McSpiff Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:04:23pm |
re: #133 windsagio
The US is special and has the right to attack anyone they want, 'cuz if we do it it must be for their own good!
Doesn't have anything to do with the US honestly. I'm just weary of anyone invading for 'the good of the locals'. Never ends well.
| 145 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:04:39pm |
re: #143 windsagio
Also he knew it would be afreakin' quagmire, which... *gasp*, it was!
| 146 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:04:47pm |
re: #138 windsagio
I know he was disagreeing with it, i was merely backing him up with examples.
| 147 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:05:26pm |
re: #143 windsagio
I know why!
The Arab states were absolutely against him overthrowing the Iraqi government, and the coalition would have collapsed if he tried.
They didn't wanna try to control Iraq either, probably knew that Saddam was doing a pretty effective job of keeping the Kurds and Shi'ites supressed.
You may well be correct in that. It is possible that Bush senior did read it that way. However, the consequences of that choice were clearly not so good.
| 148 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:05:30pm |
re: #143 windsagio
And he was doing a good job keeping Iran at bay just by existing.
| 149 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:05:30pm |
re: #135 Fozzie Bear
re: #135 Fozzie Bear
the development of a functional cortical model. The first will happen within 20-30 years, the second will take a bit longer.
Yeah. I'm sorry, but blithely assuming that we'll actually have a functional cortical model in fifty years is wildly optimistic. We currently have so many competing ideas for where to begin constructing such a model that making any timeframe prediction is silly.
Do you agree with Jeff Hawkins ?
| 150 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:05:40pm |
re: #144 McSpiff
Oh of course, but we're talking about us here :p
Preemptive attacks and 'it's for your own good' bullcrap are pretty much both always mistakes.
| 151 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:06:27pm |
re: #150 windsagio
Oh of course, but we're talking about us here :p
Preemptive attacks and 'it's for your own good' bullcrap are pretty much both always mistakes.
Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere anyone?
| 152 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:06:52pm |
re: #139 really grumpy big dog Johnson
The metric was simply included as an argument opposing the viewpoint that Iraq has been a complete bloodbath for those who have been there.
Who was representing that viewpoint?
I believe the fact that we went to war stands up to moral scrutiny, even if the reasons why we engaged in war in the first place may not.
How are those two things different?
| 153 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:07:31pm |
I'm ognna say something people will find deeply offensive now, but I'm gonna say it anyways (and bold it to boot)
Both for us, and the surrounding states, it was better when Saddam was still in power.
He kept a very unstable region stable, and he acted as a counterbalance to Iran. Also as a baathist, he wanted almost nothing to do with the Al-Qaeda style terrorists.
I admit it was a bad scene for his own people tho'.
| 154 |
Slap Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:08:34pm |
From the previous thread re: defining "white culture"....
This was quite clearly defined 25 years ago by a great American thinker and his colleagues:
The History....
Unless you don't consider Martin Mull or Fred Willard to be great American thinkers.
But their philosophies are so deep.....
| 155 |
Digital Display Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:08:50pm |
re: #141 LudwigVanQuixote
Yep... And this is pretty much what absolutely everyone else involved in policy said around the world.
Our real chance to truly change Iraq was in the first Gulf war had we turned Iraq over to the governance of the arab alliance. That would have tied the Arabs up dealing with Iraq and taken pressure off of Israel while putting more permanent and lasting pressure on Iran while leaving our forces free from the second conflict.
The biggest blunder in Iraq actually rests with Bush senior. I have absolutely no idea why he betrayed the opposition in Iraq and left Saddam in power.
Boy Ludwig..I don't think I could agree more...It has always been my Viewpoint that Bush 1 fucked up bad...One more fucking day of war Bush 1 you pussy and my America could have finished it up and end the madness..
My son spent 7 months killing people in Fallujah for the genius of our foreign policy back then...In terms of global effect I think Bush 1 was wrong.
| 156 |
McSpiff Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:09:19pm |
re: #140 rwdflynavy
Sadam sacrificied his nation's sovereignty when he invaded Kuwait and got his ass kicked. He failed to abide by the sanctions and committed hostile acts on a nearly daily basis against our flyers in the No fly zones.
I can't tell you how the weigh out the moral costs of these things, but I can't say that I view those hostile acts in the no fly zone, that never lost an airmen to anything other than friendly fire, to be worth the deaths of thousands of service men and women and thousands of Iraqis. I realize these things are of a highly personal nature tho, and I can understand if you do disagree.
| 157 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:09:44pm |
re: #147 LudwigVanQuixote
Hindsight is always 20/20 we probably would have been better off not giving saddam those WMD's (or at least helping with them) to use against Iran
| 159 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:10:50pm |
re: #142 Fozzie Bear
Yeah I agree with you there. War itself isn't "fair". That doesn't mean it isn't even less "fair" to do it ineptly. (Or rather, in a more sloppy way)
Fairness is sort of beside the point when you are speaking of the killing of men. It is what it is, and sometimes, it is necessary.
"You've got a sword!"
"Yeah, but you've got better armor!"
"Yeah, but it chafes, you've got more efficient weight distribution for your gear."
"Well, you've got a good 4" height and reach on me."
"yeah, but you've got at least 30lbs on me and a lower center of gravity."
"Center of gravity? Whats your IQ?"
"132."
"You'll be able to think quicker on your feet than me."
"But you come from a cultural with more athletic tradition, so your instincts are more finely honed."
And it just goes on and on.
| 160 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:11:04pm |
and for the record this isn't "blame america first" on my part. I understand political and diplomatic realities in given time frames. Just like it probably wasn't a good idea to support the Pinochet types in Latin America.
| 161 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:11:29pm |
re: #32 Aceofwhat?
ugh, i can't even read the whole thing...
I had the opposite reaction got halfway through and then couldn't look away no matter how much I wanted to... it's like where good taste goes to die....
| 162 |
McSpiff Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:11:34pm |
re: #151 oaktree
Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere anyone?
I remember someone being really concerned about the Sudetenland Germans as well...
| 163 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:12:11pm |
re: #156 McSpiff
I can't tell you how the weigh out the moral costs of these things, but I can't say that I view those hostile acts in the no fly zone, that never lost an airmen to anything other than friendly fire, to be worth the deaths of thousands of service men and women and thousands of Iraqis. I realize these things are of a highly personal nature tho, and I can understand if you do disagree.
I don't disagree, but to talk about us violating a country's sovereignty is somewhat disingenuous in this case.
| 164 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:13:26pm |
re: #145 windsagio
Also he knew it would be afreakin' quagmire, which... *gasp*, it was!
In fact during the first Gulf War the Secretary of defense even commented on how it was a quagmire waiting to happen. I recall that particular snippet but not who was the Secretary of defense under George H. W. Bush, let me just look it up....
(one trip to wikipedia later)
MOTHER F***ER!
| 165 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:13:36pm |
re: #163 rwdflynavy
We're getting into some VERY old territory now, but I'm reminded of the 'Sovereignty isn't like virginity' line.
...
Still can't shake the feeling that this discussion has happened before, like a million times.
| 166 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:13:44pm |
re: #155 HoosierHoops
Boy Ludwig..I don't think I could agree more...It has always been my Viewpoint that Bush 1 fucked up bad...One more fucking day of war Bush 1 you pussy and my America could have finished it up and end the madness..
My son spent 7 months killing people in Fallujah for the genius of our foreign policy back then...In terms of global effect I think Bush 1 was wrong.
I got your back Hoops. Always have.
| 167 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:14:11pm |
re: #155 HoosierHoops
Boy Ludwig..I don't think I could agree more...It has always been my Viewpoint that Bush 1 fucked up bad...One more fucking day of war Bush 1 you pussy and my America could have finished it up and end the madness..
My son spent 7 months killing people in Fallujah for the genius of our foreign policy back then...In terms of global effect I think Bush 1 was wrong.
And it's interesting how far the repercussions and echos of bad decisions can be traced back. Iraq itself came out of the post-WW1 dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire, and the welding of three provinces into a single country may well have been the initial poor decision. And from there how the UK and the various other world powers have dealt with the region certainly haven't helped.
We're dealing with politicians when you get down to it. And their true, and often sole, concerns are with how things are going to work out in the short run for their home country, district, and re-election prospects. Not to mention what might help the retirement account on the side.
| 169 |
Slap Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:14:37pm |
re: #154 Slap
...and my apologies for the OT post, btw. Levity is all about placement and timing, I suppose.
| 170 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:14:37pm |
re: #157 Dreggas
Hindsight is always 20/20 we probably would have been better off not giving saddam those WMD's (or at least helping with them) to use against Iran
I disagree. This is not so much hindsight as it is understanding how history repeats itself. Leaving an undefeated enemy in place never turns out well.
| 171 |
Cato the Elder Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:15:14pm |
re: #41 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Without using drones, we would have to put troops on the ground to do their jobs. Putting more troops on the ground would put them in more danger. They're not coming right out and saying it, but thats exactly what they want.
No. What Sheehan and her crowd want is for war to magically go away, the military to wither and die, all guns be banned, and everyone to dance around the maypole with flowers in their hair, while doe-eyed unicorns look on approvingly and Gaia distributes free cherries to everyone.
So do I.
Still ain't gonna happen.
| 172 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:15:27pm |
re: #165 windsagio
We're getting into some VERY old territory now, but I'm reminded of the 'Sovereignty isn't like virginity' line.
...
Still can't shake the feeling that this discussion has happened before, like a million times.
When folks act like we invaded Iraq with no real reason, I think it is appropriate to remind them that there were some events way back in the olden days (the 90's) that might have played a role...context is important.
| 173 |
freetoken Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:15:44pm |
re: #170 LudwigVanQuixote
This is not so much hindsight as it is understanding how history repeats itself.
Hmmm... you do know what the LGF tagline is/was?
| 174 |
McSpiff Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:15:58pm |
re: #163 rwdflynavy
I don't disagree, but to talk about us violating a country's sovereignty is somewhat disingenuous in this case.
I think no-fly zones are a very 'UN' solution to what should be a pretty clear cut military problem. So I do see your point, but I see no-fly zones as part of the problem. I think the entire way saddam was treated post Gulf war was pretty poorly thought out, with the results to match.
| 175 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:16:28pm |
re: #172 rwdflynavy
Context is important, but speking of context, the US has a history of overthrowing regimes they don't like and things going awry.
| 176 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:16:38pm |
re: #170 LudwigVanQuixote
The deal the coalition signed on for was removal of Saddam from Kuwait, and the Arab partners specifically did not want us to go after Saddam. Right or wrong that was the deal from before the air assault. Of course we would have been a full decade ahead in dealing with the consequences.
| 177 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:17:04pm |
| 178 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:17:06pm |
re: #175 windsagio
Context is important, but speking of context, the US has a history of overthrowing regimes they don't like and things going awry.
Like Hitler.
| 179 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:17:41pm |
re: #175 windsagio
Context is important, but speking of context, the US has a history of overthrowing regimes they don't like and things going awry.
Isn't that how we also got to be where we are with Iran? Or at least a part of it?
| 180 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:17:52pm |
| 181 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:17:52pm |
| 182 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:18:50pm |
re: #181 windsagio
-for lolgodwin
If you don't know why that statement is messed up, well damn.
I'm guessing those aren't the regimes you had in mind.
//
| 184 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:19:24pm |
re: #179 jamesfirecat
I think I read something about the US assasinating a democratically elected president, then supporting a dictator for 30 years.
I presume that would have ended with an islamist/nationalist revolution that replaced a liberal muslim state with a dangerous religious dictatorship.
Something like that anyways, sound familiar?
| 185 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:20:48pm |
We just actually watched the ICP Miracles video in my office and I view it as sufficient justification for the robots to unleash their fury upon us.
| 186 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:21:16pm |
re: #182 rwdflynavy
Its a freakin' incorrect comparison, and you should know it.
| 187 |
freetoken Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:21:19pm |
| 188 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:21:50pm |
re: #162 McSpiff
I remember someone being really concerned about the Sudetenland Germans as well...
That was really playing in a different patch than East Asia where a lot of locals were under control of European countries still (French Indo-China, Malaya, Indonesia, India, etc.)
The Japanese played up the anti-imperialism facet quite a bit. Parading captured European troops through cities to show their non-superiority, or having them sweep streets.
And then they let it fall on its face by acting even more arrogant once they were in charge.
| 189 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:21:54pm |
re: #181 windsagio
-for lolgodwin
If you don't know why that statement is messed up, well damn.
Sorry, Godwin's Law does not apply here. He was not comparing anyone or anything to Hitler or the Nazis, he was referencing Hitler directly.
Not a Godwin violation.
| 190 |
jvic Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:22:06pm |
re: #102 Fozzie Bear
It's about 50-70 years away, at most. The rate of advancement in computer science makes all other technical fields seem glacial in comparison. We will have sentient AI within a century.
Barring a civilizational meltdown, I'm inclined to agree.
Of course, this doesn't mean people with "Terminator" fantasies aren't out to lunch, but we are much, MUCH closer than you think to true AI.
Otoh, sentient AI has been a decade away for the last fifty years. (And AI has been a synonym for 'overpromise and underperform'.)
*** *** ***
I worked for a start-up that used AI technology. A more-than-viable business plan was run into the ground by the presiding soi-disant genius who allocated at most 10% of his time to the enterprise--and micromanaged. Instead of being well-off for life (and able to remain in this discussion), I am at serious financial risk (and must log out to work on my resume and powerpoint charts).
| 191 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:22:49pm |
re: #176 Rightwingconspirator
The deal the coalition signed on for was removal of Saddam from Kuwait, and the Arab partners specifically did not want us to go after Saddam. Right or wrong that was the deal from before the air assault. Of course we would have been a full decade ahead in dealing with the consequences.
It that is true, we should never have taken that deal. We went into Iraq the first time for the sake of our Arab "friends" who were scarred shitless of getting eaten by Saddam. We could have leveraged the Arabs more to do their part. Honestly, I find no particular moral distinction between Saudi Arabia and Saddam by any moral reckoning.
Both nations were unstable and disloyal allies. Both nations are brutal and dictatorial. Both are utterly backwards. Saddam truly was a monster. So are the Saudis. We could have just as easily said to the Saudis that if they did not play ball, we could happily deal with Saddam instead.
Now in a perfect world, we would not bother dealing with any of those thugs, because we would not burn oil.
It would indeed be technologically possible to do that, however the people in power believe that it is better for themselves to have Americans get sucked into wars over oil and to be forced to ally with medieval barbarians.
| 192 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:22:54pm |
re: #149 Obdicut
We currently have so many competing ideas for where to begin finish constructing such a model that making any timeframe prediction is silly.
Do you agree with Jeff Hawkins ?
We've already begun constructing such models, and I think 50-70 years is a good ballpark guess, honestly.
As for Jeff Hawkins, no I haven't read his stuff. I just googled him, but obviously, that's not enough to make an informed comment on his work.
I have a long rant on the subject, but not enough time to make it right now. It's possibly my single strongest fascination. I'd love to get further into it. Does this place have a private messaging feature? Help a lazy mofo out.
| 194 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:23:17pm |
| 195 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:23:22pm |
re: #189 Slumbering Behemoth
I'd make the argument that he was indirectly comparing Saddam to hitler, but you really are technically right :p
It still deserves a minus for the dishonest comparison, and for bringing up hitler at all. Its freakin' manipulative.
| 196 |
darthstar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:23:42pm |
Sarah's 'best and brightest' fans show some love for Leland Yee for his asking about Stanislaus State University and the speaking fees they're planning on paying her. Was their language colorful and full of homoerotic imagery?
I wonder if these people realize fax machines send the return number at the top of the page?
| 197 |
freetoken Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:23:57pm |
Conflicting ideas within our own society emerge as we struggle to deal with change:
Group Wants Evangelist's Pentagon Event Canceled
A watchdog group objected Tuesday to an evangelist's invitation to speak at the Pentagon next month, saying his past description of Islam as ''evil'' offended Muslims who work for the Department of Defense and the appearance should be canceled.
Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, said inviting evangelist Franklin Graham to speak May 6, the National Day of Prayer, ''would be like bringing someone in on national prayer day madly denigrating Christianity'' or other religious groups.
It would also endanger American troops by stirring up Muslim extremists, Weinstein said.
Graham is the son of famed evangelist Billy Graham and president and CEO of both Samaritan's Purse, a Christian international relief organization in Boone, N.C., and the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, in Charlotte, N.C.
He said through a spokesman that he will be a guest of the Pentagon and will speak only if he's still invited. A military spokeswoman said she was locating officials to respond to the criticism.
After the 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States, Graham said Islam ''is a very evil and wicked religion.'' He hasn't changed his views on Islam, said his spokesman, Mark DeMoss.
It seems to me that this is a no-win situation.
| 198 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:24:03pm |
re: #191 LudwigVanQuixote
PIMF
If that is true, we should never have taken that deal. We went into Iraq the first time for the sake of our Arab "friends" who were scarred shitless of getting eaten by Saddam. We could have leveraged the Arabs more to do their part. Honestly, I find no particular moral distinction between Saudi Arabia and Saddam by any moral reckoning.
Both nations were unstable and disloyal allies. Both nations are brutal and dictatorial. Both are utterly backwards. Saddam truly was a monster. So are the Saudis. We could have just as easily said to the Saudis that if they did not play ball, we could happily deal with Saddam instead.
Now in a perfect world, we would not bother dealing with any of those thugs, because we would not burn oil.
It would indeed be technologically possible to do that, however the people in power believe that it is better for themselves to have Americans get sucked into wars over oil and to be forced to ally with medieval barbarians.
| 199 |
Digital Display Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:24:27pm |
re: #176 Rightwingconspirator
The deal the coalition signed on for was removal of Saddam from Kuwait, and the Arab partners specifically did not want us to go after Saddam. Right or wrong that was the deal from before the air assault. Of course we would have been a full decade ahead in dealing with the consequences.
That's the standard line bro for the cop out and not finishing a war...
Does everyone forget at the end when Saddam set fire to the oil fields?
Did we forget that was the worst ecological terrorism in all of history?
The ultimate suicide belt?
A real leader puts an end to that shit...America was without days of victory..And we put it off for 19 years..And it's not over yet..We are about IED's from chaos in Iraq. I hope not..But this isn't over yet
| 200 |
Fozzie Bear Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:24:34pm |
re: #187 freetoken
History doesn't repeat itself, it stutters.
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." -SLC (Mark Twain)
| 201 |
DaddyG Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:25:15pm |
Off topic from the last thread...
Georgia microchip implantation hearings
I can't tell you how popular this is making the legislature with state employees. We're worried if the new budget will have enough funding to support critical services to citizens and the legislature is debating micro-chip implants. Former Governor (and current candidate) Roy Barnes had the quote of the month by saying if someone holds him down to insert a microchip in his head, “it should be more than a damned misdemeanor.”
| 202 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:25:52pm |
re: #193 MandyManners
That seems to me like a rather morbid and pointless addition to the thread....
I say from my position as a catnip smoking liberal...
| 203 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:26:14pm |
re: #202 jamesfirecat
Oh c'mon, don't you revel in death?!
| 204 |
really grumpy big dog johnson Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:26:54pm |
Is the world a better or worse place as a result of the US invasion of Iraq?
Who knows? Is terror worldwide up, or down? Is the ME safer now that an incipient democracy is in place amid all the autocracies there? I guess we'll find out. Tactically, from our point of view, the argument could be made that the ME is much less of a flashpoint than seven years ago.
But insisting that unjust war is wrong for just that reason makes no sense. Whatever may have initially been a poor choice of action that ultimately results in a positive conclusion should not by nature be considered to be bad.
The only question that remains is whether the ultimate conclusion will be good or bad. But I'm not remembering a lot of democracies that have collapsed into autocracy, or that have made war on others of their own kind.
Global terrorism has lost a significant portion of its glamour, and a lot of that has to do with the media shining its glaring light upon terrorism itself as a result of war. It doesn't stand up very well to the bright light of day.
| 205 |
Cato the Elder Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:27:22pm |
re: #190 jvic
Otoh, sentient AI has been a decade away for the last fifty years. (And AI has been a synonym for 'overpromise and underperform'.)
*** *** ***
I worked for a start-up that used AI technology. A more-than-viable business plan was run into the ground by the presiding soi-disant genius who allocated at most 10% of his time to the enterprise--and micromanaged. Instead of being well-off for life (and able to remain in this discussion), I am at serious financial risk (and must log out to work on my resume and powerpoint charts).
The Turing Test has still not been passed.
One promise of AI all these years has been viable machine translation. Hasn't happened yet and I don't see it coming about anytime soon.
Thank God, or my last line of employment would be out the window.
Try copying this simple, readily understandable (to humans) message into Google Translations and getting the "German" version. Bring it back here and I'll show you the dozen ways AI/machine translation can screw the pooch and jump the shark on a four-paragraph comment.
| 206 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:28:18pm |
re: #195 windsagio
I disagree. I saw it simply as an example of a regime that was overthrown by the U.S., in reply to your comment.
It was not a comparison, dishonest or otherwise. Nor do I see it as being manipulative. Now, if you want to criticize it's relevance to what was being discussed, I think you would have more of a legit complaint.
| 207 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:28:20pm |
re: #205 Cato the Elder
Of course showing such would be in your best interest, and we wouldn't be qualified to dispute you >>
/kidding kidding!
| 208 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:28:26pm |
re: #201 DaddyG
Off topic from the last thread...
Georgia microchip implantation hearings
I can't tell you how popular this is making the legislature with state employees. We're worried if the new budget will have enough funding to support critical services to citizens and the legislature is debating micro-chip implants. Former Governor (and current candidate) Roy Barnes had the quote of the month by saying if someone holds him down to insert a microchip in his head, “it should be more than a damned misdemeanor.”
Yes, the GOP is not interested in governing. They are however interested in stoking the fears of their wingnut base. This legislation is a freebee. They get to speechify to the drooling masses, do nothing, and come out heros to the McVeigh crowd.
Of course, they are also feeding that delusional crowd utter red meat and making even the non delusional crowd entertain the notion that the government might be chipping you soon. It stokes paranoia and they think that by so doing they will gain more power. Of course, the consequences of stoking those kinds of fears are not something that they consider.
| 209 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:28:32pm |
re: #180 rwdflynavy
I'm more concerned about **recent** history because it's more relevant to the thread but hey! I'm weird like that :D
| 210 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:28:53pm |
re: #191 LudwigVanQuixote
That is how I wind up with the drill here crowd. Drill for our natural gas. Spend the money the Arabs would be spending on vast sand islands shaped like palm trees, jets, gold, & Wahabi terrorists.
Spend it on H3 research (just referring to our recent mention) and whatever energy technology you want. Slightly related-BTW saw an advertisement for solar roof tiles today. Heh. Between those and a good cistern for your water...
| 211 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:29:49pm |
Here you go Cato - critique away!
=====
Der Turing-Test ist noch nicht verabschiedet worden.
Ein Versprechen von AI all diesen Jahren hat sich lebensfähige maschinelle Übersetzung. Ist noch nicht passiert und ich weiß es nicht kommen sehen etwa jederzeit schnell.
Gott sei Dank, oder meine letzte Zeile der Beschäftigung wäre aus dem Fenster.
Versuchen Sie, das Kopieren dieser einfachen, leicht verständlich (beim Menschen) Nachricht in Google Translations und bekommen die "deutschen" Version. Bring es wieder hier und ich zeige Ihnen das Dutzend Möglichkeiten AI / maschinelle Übersetzung kann die Schraube und pooch Jump the Shark auf einem Vier-Absatz kommentieren.
| 212 |
Cato the Elder Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:29:52pm |
re: #196 darthstar
Sarah's 'best and brightest' fans show some love for Leland Yee for his asking about Stanislaus State University and the speaking fees they're planning on paying her. Was their language colorful and full of homoerotic imagery?
I wonder if these people realize fax machines send the return number at the top of the page?
I wonder if you realize that you can send anonymous faxes from any Kinko's.
| 213 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:30:21pm |
re: #205 Cato the Elder
The Turing Test has still not been passed.
One promise of AI all these years has been viable machine translation. Hasn't happened yet and I don't see it coming about anytime soon.
Thank God, or my last line of employment would be out the window.
Try copying this simple, readily understandable (to humans) message into Google Translations and getting the "German" version. Bring it back here and I'll show you the dozen ways AI/machine translation can screw the pooch and jump the shark on a four-paragraph comment.
Don't need to tell me that, I've had lots of experience chatting with a few friends I made in Brazil over the internet (long story). They don't speak English and I don't speak a lick of Portuguese so everything is done via Google Translate, most of the time I can grasp the gist of what they were saying but sometimes I'll ask them to write their comments again in a different way to see if that translates out better.
Still cool though that two people who don't share a language can comprehend about 90% of what the other says with the aid of an average house hold machine + internet connection.
| 214 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:30:42pm |
re: #206 Slumbering Behemoth
Well lets go with that then, that first line was meant to be a joke anwyays, because you were right :P
WW2 isn't comparable to the way the US has overthrown various other governments in the world, largely unilaterally. Its a false comparison.
*Arrgh, I can't resist. Bringing up hitler is always bad form, due to the emotional resonance involved.
| 215 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:31:25pm |
And if I translate it back to English I get this...
=====
The Turing Test has not yet been adopted.
A promise of AI all these years has viable machine translation. Has not happened yet and I do not see it come about anytime soon.
Thank God, or my last line of employment would be out the window.
Try copying this simple, easy to understand (in humans) message in Google Translations and get the "German" version. Bring it back here and I'll show you a dozen ways AI / machine translation can comment on the screw and Jump the Shark pooch on a four-paragraph.
| 216 |
Cato the Elder Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:31:59pm |
re: #207 windsagio
Of course showing such would be in your best interest, and we wouldn't be qualified to dispute you >>
/kidding kidding!
Psst! There are other German speakers here besides me.
| 217 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:32:11pm |
re: #210 Rightwingconspirator
That is how I wind up with the drill here crowd. Drill for our natural gas. Spend the money the Arabs would be spending on vast sand islands shaped like palm trees, jets, gold, & Wahabi terrorists.
Spend it on H3 research (just referring to our recent mention) and whatever energy technology you want. Slightly related-BTW saw an advertisement for solar roof tiles today. Heh. Between those and a good cistern for your water...
Natural gas burns to CO2. It is a very bad idea to spend the capital to retool in that direction when we could spend the same money in other ones that would not pollute.
| 218 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:32:30pm |
re: #213 jamesfirecat
Don't need to tell me that, I've had lots of experience chatting with a few friends I made in Brazil over the internet (long story). They don't speak English and I don't speak a lick of Portuguese so everything is done via Google Translate, most of the time I can grasp the gist of what they were saying but sometimes I'll ask them to write their comments again in a different way to see if that translates out better.
Still cool though that two people who don't share a language can comprehend about 90% of what the other says with the aid of an average house hold machine + internet connection.
I'm going to get to experience this soon since I now work for a Brazilian chemical giant.
| 219 |
garhighway Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:32:48pm |
re: #172 rwdflynavy
When folks act like we invaded Iraq with no real reason, I think it is appropriate to remind them that there were some events way back in the olden days (the 90's) that might have played a role...context is important.
I don't think anyone believes we invaded for no reason. I think a LOT of people think that the Bush team was not candid about the reason. It seemed obvious at the time that Bush and Cheney made the decision first and built the case second.
A t least a couple of the proffered reasons were disingenuous. The "Saddam was complicit in 9/11" theme was horseshit, but Cheney peddled it a lot. The WMD argument was plausible, but we now know that Cheney pushed hard to cherry-pick the facts supporting that argument. The "treaty violations" argument is frankly new to me: I don't recall hearing that one at the time. And then there was the "we can re-make the Mideast" argument, which was a breathtaking example of hubris.
Since the ostensible reasons were being put forth in what seems like bad faith, it makes me wonder if there was a deeper reason that we haven't heard yet. I have always wondered about that. I doubt we'll ever know.
| 220 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:33:22pm |
re: #184 windsagio
Have you read or seen Imperial Cruise? By James Bradley?
| 221 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:33:46pm |
re: #185 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
We just actually watched the ICP Miracles video in my office and I view it as sufficient justification for the robots to unleash their fury upon us.
I like SNL's take off on it better, nice parody of the idiocy.
[Link: www.nbc.com...]
| 222 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:34:00pm |
re: #215 oaktree
And if I translate it back to English I get this...
===
The Turing Test has not yet been adopted.
A promise of AI all these years has viable machine translation. Has not happened yet and I do not see it come about anytime soon.
Thank God, or my last line of employment would be out the window.
Try copying this simple, easy to understand (in humans) message in Google Translations and get the "German" version. Bring it back here and I'll show you a dozen ways AI / machine translation can comment on the screw and Jump the Shark pooch on a four-paragraph.
Consider that was twice translated that's pretty impressive. Except for "the screw and jump the shark pooch" part. And "in humans" Also "Adopted" rather than "completed"
Also "has viable machine translation" rather than "of viable" but still its remarkably comprehendable for the most part....
| 224 |
darthstar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:34:24pm |
re: #201 DaddyG
Off topic from the last thread...
Former Governor (and current candidate) Roy Barnes had the quote of the month by saying if someone holds him down to insert a microchip in his head, “it should be more than a damned misdemeanor.”
Unfortunately for Roy Barnes, the microchips are inserted in the rectum, so there's a good chance they could accidentally insert it into his head.
| 225 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:34:56pm |
re: #214 windsagio
*Arrgh, I can't resist. Bringing up hitler is always bad form, due to the emotional resonance involved.
Again, I must disagree. If the topic of discussion were neo-nazis, bringing up hitler would be perfectly suitable.
| 226 |
DaddyG Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:35:20pm |
re: #213 jamesfirecat
Don't need to tell me that, I've had lots of experience chatting with a few friends I made in Brazil over the internet (long story). They don't speak English and I don't speak a lick of Portuguese so everything is done via Google Translate, most of the time I can grasp the gist of what they were saying but sometimes I'll ask them to write their comments again in a different way to see if that translates out better.
Still cool though that two people who don't share a language can comprehend about 90% of what the other says with the aid of an average house hold machine + internet connection.
Translation is as easy as a wedge shaped segment of crusted pan dessert with soft fruit filling!
| 227 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:35:37pm |
re: #222 jamesfirecat
It is-- but it's still not a solution to the Natural Language problem, which a lot of people would say needs to be solved for AI to be real.
| 228 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:35:55pm |
re: #223 Obdicut
Ob you really should not put up your e-mail.
| 229 |
Cato the Elder Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:36:03pm |
re: #215 oaktree
And if I translate it back to English I get this...
===
The Turing Test has not yet been adopted.
A promise of AI all these years has viable machine translation. Has not happened yet and I do not see it come about anytime soon.
Thank God, or my last line of employment would be out the window.
Try copying this simple, easy to understand (in humans) message in Google Translations and get the "German" version. Bring it back here and I'll show you a dozen ways AI / machine translation can comment on the screw and Jump the Shark pooch on a four-paragraph.
And there you have it.
When Google Translations becomes self-aware (right before the end of the Mayan calendar), we'll all be screwed by sharks and jumped by pooches.
| 230 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:36:04pm |
| 231 |
DaddyG Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:36:08pm |
re: #214 windsagio
Well lets go with that then, that first line was meant to be a joke anwyays, because you were right :P
WW2 isn't comparable to the way the US has overthrown various other governments in the world, largely unilaterally. Its a false comparison.
*Arrgh, I can't resist. Bringing up hitler is always bad form, due to the emotional resonance involved.
If you are really talking about the Third Reich and WWII bringing up Hitler isn't a violation of Godwins law.
| 232 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:36:10pm |
re: #221 ausador
I like SNL's take off on it better, nice parody of the idiocy.
[Link: www.nbc.com...]
"Fuckin' blankets: How do they work?"
Full. Of. Win.
| 233 |
William Barnett-Lewis Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:36:25pm |
re: #220 Rightwingconspirator
Have you read or seen Imperial Cruise? By James Bradley?
I've read reviews of it and have it on request from the library. Have you read it? If so, your thoughts on it?
Thanks,
William
| 235 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:37:09pm |
re: #222 jamesfirecat
True. And much better than some other efforts I've seen.
I once took something that some friends would instantly recognize and ran a English -> German -> French -> English translation using Babelfish. And I essentially got word salad out. Entertaining word salad if you knew the source text. It's like playing "Telephone" using languages.
| 236 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:37:20pm |
re: #217 LudwigVanQuixote
I was referring to that as better than oil, and a cleaner bridge to far better technology. Cleaner as in methane fuel cells that remove the carbon as a solid, then burn the rest. Cleaner as in less pollutants than gasoline in cars, or generators to charge up electric cars.
If I had a hybrid, I would want two modifications-switch the engine to natural gas, and add plugging in my battery. Like from my solar roof!
| 237 |
DaddyG Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:37:49pm |
| 238 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:38:03pm |
re: #230 windsagio
Gah, right again! I surrender!
Yet again, I must disagree. You see, ...
/now I'm just messing with ya
| 239 |
recusancy Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:38:46pm |
re: #219 garhighway
I don't think anyone believes we invaded for no reason. I think a LOT of people think that the Bush team was not candid about the reason. It seemed obvious at the time that Bush and Cheney made the decision first and built the case second.
A t least a couple of the proffered reasons were disingenuous. The "Saddam was complicit in 9/11" theme was horseshit, but Cheney peddled it a lot. The WMD argument was plausible, but we now know that Cheney pushed hard to cherry-pick the facts supporting that argument. The "treaty violations" argument is frankly new to me: I don't recall hearing that one at the time. And then there was the "we can re-make the Mideast" argument, which was a breathtaking example of hubris.
Since the ostensible reasons were being put forth in what seems like bad faith, it makes me wonder if there was a deeper reason that we haven't heard yet. I have always wondered about that. I doubt we'll ever know.
I think a lot of it can be traced back to PNAC.
Irving Kristol's son is one of the worst things to happen to the GOP and this country as a whole.
| 240 |
DaddyG Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:38:47pm |
Translations are as easy as obeying gravitational pull from a vertical stepping platform for painting.
| 241 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:38:57pm |
re: #201 DaddyG
Won't someone think of the microchips??
Hey, I'd like to apologize for jumping down your throat on the bb issue yesterday, it was dumb of me, and you didn't deserve it :-(
| 243 |
DaddyG Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:39:57pm |
Clear translations are like punching a house while jogging rapidly.
| 244 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:40:09pm |
re: #240 DaddyG
Translations are as easy as obeying gravitational pull from a vertical stepping platform for painting.
ACCURSED GRAVITY! THY FUNCTIONS VEX ME SORELY!
| 245 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:40:26pm |
re: #241 WindUpBird
Won't someone think of the microchips??
Hey, I'd like to apologize for jumping down your throat on the bb issue yesterday, it was dumb of me, and you didn't deserve it :-(
When True AI takes over the first against the wall will be those who thought up the rectum-installed microchips. BIG AI is not amused by being inundated by human crack 24/7/365.
//
| 246 |
DaddyG Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:40:40pm |
re: #241 WindUpBird
Won't someone think of the microchips??
Hey, I'd like to apologize for jumping down your throat on the bb issue yesterday, it was dumb of me, and you didn't deserve it :-(
I get your passion - you aren't the only stubborn one in our discussion. No hard feelings. But it is very classy of you to say so. Thanks!
| 247 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:41:27pm |
re: #242 windsagio
Haha shut up
| 248 |
McSpiff Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:41:50pm |
re: #193 MandyManners
I was going to post a picture of Kennedy to show that good and evil both pass on, and hopefully make a statement that death is the great equalizer, but then I remembered I have way too much class to stoop to your level.
| 249 |
freetoken Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:41:51pm |
re: #236 Rightwingconspirator
We have natural gas coming out of our ears (figuratively, not literally... unless you have methanogenic bacteria growing in your ears in which case I suggest you attend to it!)
Natural gas prices are so low now that high cost methods such as importing LNG are in trouble.
The development of fracturing rock (to release trapped methane) has revolutionized the gas industry. However, it looks like the incidences of water polluted by drilling is rising too, and this will be the future of some big law suits, I think.
| 252 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:42:50pm |
re: #244 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Homer Simpson, while falling from a height:
"Aw, come on gravity...You used to be cool."
| 253 |
darthstar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:42:51pm |
re: #221 ausador
I like SNL's take off on it better, nice parody of the idiocy.
[Link: www.nbc.com...]
Okay...that was funny...are ICP jesus freaks?
| 254 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:43:18pm |
| 255 |
Racer X Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:43:31pm |
Saddam was a prick and he needed killin.
There, I said it.
| 256 |
Cato the Elder Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:43:47pm |
re: #222 jamesfirecat
Consider that was twice translated that's pretty impressive. Except for "the screw and jump the shark pooch" part. And "in humans" Also "Adopted" rather than "completed"
Also "has viable machine translation" rather than "of viable" but still its remarkably comprehendable for the most part...
But it's not real German nor real English, which would be the acid test for true AI machine translation.
MT has been the Holy Grail of AI enthusiasts for well over half a century. It's the final ten or fifteen percent that eludes us.
And you'll note that the German version simply leaves the stuff it doesn't get (about screwing pooches and jumping sharks) in English. Completely incomprehensible to a German speaker.
Which is why I put it in there. Any English speaker gets that stuff instantly. If it had been an important message about, say, a spy in the ointment, the only way for a German reader to get the message would be to have a human translate it.
Yay human brains!
| 257 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:43:51pm |
re: #253 darthstar
Okay...that was funny...are ICP jesus freaks?
The label they're on is owned by Disney. That amuses me.
| 259 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:45:26pm |
| 260 |
freetoken Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:45:59pm |
From the Headlines we probably wouldn't have seen 50 years ago in newspapers file:
Suspected bomb an anal vibrator
The California Highway Patrol said one of its offices was evacuated due to a suspected bomb in a man's anal cavity that turned out to be a vibrator.
| 261 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:46:24pm |
| 262 |
McSpiff Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:46:37pm |
re: #255 Racer X
Saddam was a prick and he needed killin.
There, I said it.
So was Pinochet in my opinion, but I've recently seen some here defending him. To each his own in these matters.
| 263 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:46:42pm |
| 265 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:47:42pm |
re: #230 windsagio
Oh yeah. Read all about the "white mans burden" of uplifting primitive cultures like the Japanese to really screw over the lesser races like the Chinese etc.
Bush got nothin on Teddy. Makes the Neocons appear to be harmless sweethearts by comparison to Teddy's crew of diplomats and arm twisters on the Imperial Cruise.
| 266 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:48:11pm |
re: #229 Cato the Elder
And there you have it.
When Google Translations becomes self-aware (right before the end of the Mayan calendar), we'll all be screwed by sharks and jumped by pooches.
OK my doomsday scenario....
I mean worst of the worst...
1. Iran gets nuke.
2. Iran uses nuke on Israel and Israel fires back from the grave.
3. World oil markets go apeshit.
4. The economy nosedives for real.
4. Palin or Huckabee or McDonnel gets elected on a "make the trains run on time" platform.
5. America does not go completely theocracy as a result, there is still too much Constitution left for that, but many repressive things do get done while the new GOP takes away American rights and liberties and finally manages to pack the court, we completely mismanage the China account and science is put on a back burner.
6. We pass a methane tipping point. Because the GOP does not believe in such things.
7. Somewhere around 2050 we have a massive ice loss event in Greenland.
8. Major cities begin to flood, food stocks truly begin to feel a pinch in the continental US, and there are crashing economies around the world.
9. Last ditch efforts are made too little too late to "go green" and rationing is mandated.
10. As the situation worsens, the government, for the sake of the children begins to implement ever more repressive measures. Decisions of who is "in" and who is a refugee left to fend for themselves get made around the world. Contagion spreads amongst the under nourished and over crowded as new disease vectors enter virgin populations.
11. People on the "out" part of the call fight back in more and more numbers as black markets proliferate and violence becomes routine.
12. Our democracy as we know it collapses into a permanent state of emergency.
13... After that who knows... Dark ages? Motorcycle barbarians? America reduced to city states? But billions will die.
| 267 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:48:56pm |
re: #236 Rightwingconspirator
I was referring to that as better than oil, and a cleaner bridge to far better technology. Cleaner as in methane fuel cells that remove the carbon as a solid, then burn the rest. Cleaner as in less pollutants than gasoline in cars, or generators to charge up electric cars.
If I had a hybrid, I would want two modifications-switch the engine to natural gas, and add plugging in my battery. Like from my solar roof!
Fair enough. For those applications it is not so bad!
Nuclear, solar and wind with a smart grid would still be better.
| 268 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:49:03pm |
re: #266 LudwigVanQuixote
IF it makes you feel any better, they'd probably only take out one city, in exchange for utter anihhilation.
... I"m guessing that doesn't make you feel any better.
| 269 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:49:47pm |
re: #267 LudwigVanQuixote
I'm still a big proponent of the German-style "Home solar that sells back to the grid".
Its not the only solution obviously, but its a totally awesome addition.
| 270 |
garhighway Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:49:56pm |
re: #255 Racer X
Saddam was a prick and he needed killin.
There, I said it.
Of course he was. But how long is THAT list?
Shall we go conquer and take ownership of every country in which the head of state "needs killin'"? I don't think our armed forces can manage that heavy a lift, do you?
That, for me, is the bottom line here. We killed untold thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, and got a whole bunch of our own service members killed, and for what? To rid the world of Saddam? Do you really think that was a good trade?
| 271 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:50:13pm |
re: #265 Rightwingconspirator
Except Teddy Roosevelt never started a war. He was amazingly shrewd in that regard.
| 272 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:50:19pm |
re: #265 Rightwingconspirator
TR was the last of that type I think. Our first century was freakin' full of them!
| 273 |
sandbox Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:50:37pm |
Nice work killing the two AlQueida thugs in Iraq. The Obama admin. appears ok in carrying on in Iraq and Af/PAk. However they are shooting themselves in the foot by trying KSM et al in civilian rather then military courts in the USA.
| 274 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:50:54pm |
re: #269 windsagio
I'm still a big proponent of the German-style "Home solar that sells back to the grid".
Its not the only solution obviously, but its a totally awesome addition.
That is a major portion of what I mean by smart grids yes.
| 275 |
McSpiff Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:51:00pm |
re: #264 windsagio
*cough*theshah*cough*
*cough*most leaders of the middle east,anywhere that ends in 'stan',a good chunk of Africa, and most of south america for the last 50 years*cough*
Hell, I'd argue more than a few South African leaders deserved the gallows more than most, but we don't generally execute Western-ish leaders, even when they might really deserve it.
| 276 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:51:11pm |
re: #263 Obdicut
The Dark Carnival is not a meritocracy. For true equality to be achieved the lowest common denominator must be embraced and then given fetal alcohol syndrome. To quote the ICP in my head, "Then paint your babies up like wrestlers / talk to them using nothin but cuss words / candy, pizza, hotdogs, weed / give yalls babies everything they need."
LOL!
| 277 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:51:24pm |
| 278 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:52:18pm |
re: #275 McSpiff
The Shah is just too great to bring up because we put him in power in the first place (well the us and the British >>)
| 279 |
sandbox Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:52:45pm |
re: #266 LudwigVanQuixote
So the USA should bomb Iraq nuclear facilities or allow Israel to do same.
| 280 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:53:00pm |
re: #267 LudwigVanQuixote
Agreed.In the spirit of that-Links to some solutions we can buy NOW. As long as we can get our permits anyway...
[Link: www.premierpower.com...]
[Link: www.google.com...]
[Link: www.lid-stormwater.net...]
[Link: www.omick.net...]
| 281 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:53:01pm |
re: #274 LudwigVanQuixote
I bow to your superior knowledge, as always :D
| 282 |
really grumpy big dog johnson Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:53:04pm |
re: #260 freetoken
From the Headlines we probably wouldn't have seen 50 years ago in newspapers file:
So now the CHP runs every visitor through a metal detector? I wonder what else they've found?!
Reminds me of a true cop story, but unfortunately I can't really repeat it here. It's very funny, though.
| 283 |
Kragar Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:53:19pm |
re: #221 ausador
I like SNL's take off on it better, nice parody of the idiocy.
[Link: www.nbc.com...]
Who is the cute blonde chick?
| 284 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:53:21pm |
| 285 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:53:26pm |
Lefty interviews Tea Partiers....
TAX DAY TEA PARTY 2010
Misinformation takes its toll.There are always stupid people at any gathering but it's easy to see the misinformation from Fox News and right wing blogs has made these folks completely unaware of the world around them.
| 286 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:53:57pm |
re: #279 sandbox
So the USA should bomb Iraq nuclear facilities or allow Israel to do same.
You mean Iran, but yes.
| 287 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:54:25pm |
re: #271 Obdicut
Not true. He had a serious hand in wars by proxy. The dead were just as dead. And after reading about the Philippines and our policy then I shudder. Wars? Massacres really.
| 288 |
sandbox Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:54:43pm |
re: #286 LudwigVanQuixote
Oops........correction. I meant Iran.
| 289 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:56:35pm |
re: #286 LudwigVanQuixote
I still think that Iraq has very little intention to use the bomb once they get it (because their leaders don't wanna die), and preemptive bombing will make things worse.
But that'll be a 1000 post argument, so maybe I should let it go >>
| 290 |
ArchangelMichael Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:57:31pm |
re: #266 LudwigVanQuixote
I don't think step 2 will actually ever happen. It's too convenient having that scapegoat around to blame all their problems on. Ranting about Israel keeps the extremists happy.
| 291 |
McSpiff Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:57:45pm |
re: #289 windsagio
I still think that Iraq has very little intention to use the bomb once they get it (because their leaders don't wanna die), and preemptive bombing will make things worse.
But that'll be a 1000 post argument, so maybe I should let it go >>
Cough, Cough
Ahh jeeze...
| 292 |
sandbox Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:59:07pm |
Sandbox bumper sticker solutions re war with radical islam:
Name the enemy, Win the war!
Ban the Veil!
Bomb the Well!
| 293 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Apr 20, 2010 2:59:57pm |
Fucking awesome news. Kill those bastards.
| 294 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:01:15pm |
re: #285 Killgore Trout
Lefty interviews Tea Partiers...
TAX DAY TEA PARTY 2010
[Video]Misinformation takes its toll.There are always stupid people at any gathering but it's easy to see the misinformation from Fox News and right wing blogs has made these folks completely unaware of the world around them.
This is a fantastic link. Yes these are the moronic faces of the tea party. How often have you seen this and tried to give people facts only to have them sweep past those facts as if they didn't exist.
| 295 |
Obdicut Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:01:35pm |
re: #287 Rightwingconspirator
He inherited the Phillippines, I do believe. The point I was making was that, unlike the neocons, he didn't invade anywhere.
| 297 |
freetoken Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:02:23pm |
re: #294 LudwigVanQuixote
How often have you seen this and tried to give people facts only to have them sweep past those facts as if they didn't exist.
Heh, try visiting a creationist forum sometime and having a discussion.
| 298 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:02:47pm |
re: #285 Killgore Trout
Lefty interviews Tea Partiers...
TAX DAY TEA PARTY 2010
[Video]Misinformation takes its toll.There are always stupid people at any gathering but it's easy to see the misinformation from Fox News and right wing blogs has made these folks completely unaware of the world around them.
Ohh and there is Lord
Iguana eyed consanguinity
, Monckton even using the word Civil War in reference to AGW denial.
| 299 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:03:32pm |
re: #297 freetoken
Heh, try visiting a creationist forum sometime and having a discussion.
I remember when that was LGF. Besides these are the same people. Same assholes slightly different shit.
| 300 |
sandbox Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:03:32pm |
re: #296 Obdicut
It will happen. Public mask wearing is a no no.
| 301 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:03:33pm |
It cracks me up to no end to know that the Insane Clown Posse, and quite possibly a great many Juggalos/lettes, are full-on Creationists.
Yet, considering their cultish behavior, I shouldn't be surprised.
| 302 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:04:19pm |
re: #290 ArchangelMichael
I don't think step 2 will actually ever happen. It's too convenient having that scapegoat around to blame all their problems on. Ranting about Israel keeps the extremists happy.
Well I certainly hope that you are correct :)
| 303 |
McSpiff Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:04:22pm |
re: #300 sandbox
It will happen. Public mask wearing is a no no.
Since when is public mask wearing a no no?
| 304 |
Cato the Elder Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:04:39pm |
re: #265 Rightwingconspirator
Oh yeah. Read all about the "white mans burden" of uplifting primitive cultures like the Japanese to really screw over the lesser races like the Chinese etc.
Bush got nothin on Teddy. Makes the Neocons appear to be harmless sweethearts by comparison to Teddy's crew of diplomats and arm twisters on the Imperial Cruise.
He got his wish.
| 306 |
sandbox Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:05:59pm |
re: #303 McSpiff
It was outlawed in many locations in the early part of the 20th century to combat the KKK. There are initiatives in EU countries to prevent this practice.
| 307 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:07:55pm |
re: #306 sandbox
Seriously tho', its not illegal whre I live, and a ban would almost certainly be shot down on constitutional grounds.
So do you just hate Muslims, or all Arab-lookin' people?
| 308 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:08:21pm |
re: #285 Killgore Trout
Gawd. Those get more and more painful to watch. Depressing, really. The stupidity is so strong it not only burns the flesh, it consumes the soul.
| 309 |
McSpiff Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:09:22pm |
re: #306 sandbox
It was outlawed in many locations in the early part of the 20th century to combat the KKK. There are initiatives in EU countries to prevent this practice.
Now that you say that, I do remember hearing about those laws. I'm from the frozen north where seeing people in ski-masks or balaclavas isn't all that uncommon, although its generally considered proper to remove them when going inside. Thanks for clearing that up.
| 310 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:10:26pm |
re: #303 McSpiff
Since when is public mask wearing a no no?
Certain circumstances. Try walking into a bank with one. On second thought, don't.
| 311 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:10:50pm |
OH G-d! Hearing Lord Consanguinity Monckton pimping Fox and Lithium Beck and Purple Face O'Rielly, I truly want to vomit. Watching him wear a Stars and Stripes tie is too much. Just too much. In America we don't have inbred Tory Lords, just inbred populists.
| 312 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:11:11pm |
re: #310 Slumbering Behemoth
Seriously tho' that's not what he was talking about and we all know it.
(Funny what pisses me off sometimes)
| 313 |
sandbox Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:12:45pm |
re: #307 windsagio
Oh come on. Calling me names means you can't counter my arguments. I don't think it benefits our civic culture to have people walking around in public places wearing masks. Further it defeats the purpose of all the video surveillance cameras. And the ban would also include those ski-masked jerks who show up at WTO conferences and the like and attack the police.
| 314 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:13:32pm |
re: #283 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Who is the cute blonde chick?
Kristen Wiig, I think...
Hard to tell for sure with the blonde hair.
| 315 |
windsagio Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:13:58pm |
re: #313 sandbox
Yeah, that's totally what you meant.
...
I clearly can't talk to you about this and be polite, so I'm gonna withdraw for the time being. No reason for me to poison the thread.
| 316 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:15:05pm |
re: #312 windsagio
True. Something more sensible than a complete and total ban would be appropriate.
Still, one can not simply "cling to their religion" as an excuse to violate the social contract.
| 317 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:18:45pm |
re: #303 McSpiff
Since when is public mask wearing a no no?
A lot of the "Anonymous" people found out that it was illegal to wear a mask in public in some areas while doing the Scientology protests. Guy Fawkes mask, not legal, bandanna wrapped over your nose and mouth, legal.
Go figure, there was a lot of discussion about it on the project chanology website while everyone was trying to figure where it was legal and where it wasn't...
| 318 |
RogueOne Tue, Apr 20, 2010 3:21:08pm |
re: #136 Dreggas
By that logic we should have invaded Sudan and other large parts of Africa.
You're right, we should have. Sitting back watching hundreds of thousands of people die doesn't make one "moral".
| 319 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Tue, Apr 20, 2010 5:15:13pm |
re: #241 WindUpBird
Won't someone think of the microchips??
Hey, I'd like to apologize for jumping down your throat on the bb issue yesterday, it was dumb of me, and you didn't deserve it :-(
When True AI takes over the first against the wall will be those who thought up the rectum-installed microchips. BIG AI is not amused by being inundated by human crack 24/7/365.
//re: #266 LudwigVanQuixote
How about the LHC going goofy between 1 and 2 and taking out a large chunk of Europe. That'll monkeywrench a bunch of our potential allies and also get everyone's attention away from Iran and the Middle East at just the wrong moment. (Plus the nice knock-on of the religious kooks of all stripes saying that it was God's punishment/will.)
| 320 |
Tigger2005 Tue, Apr 20, 2010 6:45:15pm |
re: #5 Fozzie Bear
Good news, but it doesn't mean shit if we can't leave, and frankly, we can't leave.
When my dog shits on the floor, I rub his nose in it. I wish we could do the same to every single simpering coward that authorized the use of military force in Iraq, starting with Bush.
I don't understand people like you at all.
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