Outrageous Outrage of the Day

Wingnuts • Views: 3,446

The wingnut sites are all hyperventilating about President Obama’s speech to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute, in which he ad-libbed a quote from the Declaration of Independence — and left out the words “by their Creator.”

The Weekly Standard’s Jeffrey Anderson, in a post dripping with horror, asks the all-important question: Does President Obama Think Our Rights Come from Our Creator?

On Friday evening, when President Obama addressed the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute, he quoted that passage as follows (on the clip at 22:30): “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal [pause], endowed with certain unalienable rights: life and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

In Obama’s version, there is no “Creator.”

Only two plausible explanations spring to mind. One is that President Obama isn’t very familiar with the most famous passage in the document that founded this nation; that even when plainly reading from a teleprompter, he wasn’t able to quote it correctly. The other is that President Obama doesn’t subscribe to the Declaration’s rather central claim that our rights come from our “Creator” (also referred to in the Declaration as “Nature’s God” and “the Supreme Judge of the World”).

The religious right is kinda cute when they’re mad.

First of all, as I pointed out above, those words were not in Obama’s written speech — he ad-libbed them. It seems incredibly stupid to claim that this reveals some important fact about Obama, but hey — this is the Weekly Standard. It’s what they do.

But there’s a more important point behind this latest silly outrage, and it has to do with the constant efforts of the religious right to destroy the wall of separation between church and state.

Fundamentalists love to point to the Declaration of Independence to support their claims that the founding fathers intended the United States to be a Christian nation, because of passages like this one. But the Declaration of Independence, although it’s a stirring call to arms and a powerful statement of principle, does not carry the force of law.

When it came time for the founders to delineate those rights in an official, carefully worded legal document, they drafted the United States Constitution. And the Constitution, with deliberate intent, does not mention “God” or a “Creator” even once. It explicitly rejects the idea of an “official” US religion; makes it illegal, in fact.

The Weekly Standard seems to take it as an objective fact that our rights come from God, and wants everyone to be outraged at Obama for suggesting otherwise. But without the magnificent US Constitution, created by human beings who understood the perils of state-sanctioned religion, there would be no guarantee of rights whatsoever. And without the tools of law enforcement, also created by human beings, there would be no way to enforce these rights, or punish those who would take them away.

You may wish to believe that the rights enumerated in the Constitution were inspired by God (that’s your right, after all), but they were conceived and written down by human beings, some of whom were Deists who did not believe in the Christian idea of God at all.

This insistence that human rights can only be granted by God is one of the fronts in the religious right’s constant battle to delegitimize the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment; and that’s why they’re beating the outrage drum so hard over this.

Jump to bottom

243 comments
1 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:14:36am

Everyone knows the Nazis came up with the idea of separation between Church and State.
///

2 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:16:09am

Atheist rights come from reason, codified law, and civilization — god granted rights come from superstition. I love our constitution, and how it limits these theocrat petite tyrants.

3 avanti  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:16:18am

If our rights actually came from the religious rights concept of a creator, gays and other sinners would have fewer.

4 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:16:52am

Of course. It feeds the Communist/Socialist, anti-religious agenda. Democrats are heathens and Obama is unworthy.

I guess the gays are good enough to be saved, but we’re not?

Some religious people really piss me off.

5 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:16:56am

There goes the theory that he reads everything off the teleprompter.

(I thought the remarks were quite inspiring and the word endowed sort of implies the “from the creator/god/gaia/giant consmic muffin/etc.” part.

6 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:18:16am

possible explanations:
1. he is an evil Nazi atheist
2. he is a secret muslim
3. he is planning on UN subjugation
4. he is an evil communist
5. he is an evil socialist
6. he is a witch
7. he has never read the Declaration of Independence
8. as a real Christian, he’s sick of the Deist creator crap
9. he is planning on taking your guns away
10. he will tax the rich till they are poor
11. he masturbates
12. he’s been palling around with terrorists
13. he married a Klingon
14. he’s not American
15. he is an anti-colonialist
16. he’s stupid

7 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:18:18am

If the theocrats got their way they would outlaw safe sex …

[Link: www.catholicnewsagency.com…]

8 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:19:43am

If the theocrats got their way, everyone unmarried would be celibate
[Link: www.google.com…]

9 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:20:20am

re: #6 Jeff In Ohio

Upon further reflection I’m going with

11. he masturbates

He was obviously wanking behind the podium and got distracted.

Now he’s blind.

ACORN!!!!11!

10 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:20:40am

re: #8 Thanos

… or in jail…

11 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:21:09am

“It explicitly rejects the idea of an “official” US religion; makes it illegal, in fact.”

Belief in a creator has nothing to do with a certain “religion” what more a official state sponsored religion.

12 Yashmak  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:24:21am
. .and wants everyone to be outraged at Obama for suggesting otherwise.

And he didn’t even suggest otherwise! He ad-libbed. On the one hand they malign him as stupid on economic issues, yet attribute total recall to him when it comes to quoting historical documents off the top of his head.

I’m no Obama fan, but this is latest fauxtrage is just a head-shaker.

13 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:24:45am

OMG there’s an ad for Eckankar here. I didn’t know that scam was still running! It’s like Scientology, but more misogynistic and without the celebs.

14 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:26:10am

Sometimes they say he’s a Muslim, and sometimes they say he’s Godless. I am very confused.

15 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:27:08am

re: #14 reuven

Sometimes they say he’s a Muslim, and sometimes they say he’s Godless. I am very confused.

He’s a Muslim, Christian, Voodoo, Kenyan, Atheist, Commie.

What’s so hard to understand?

16 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:28:55am

re: #15 marjoriemoon

He’s a Muslim, Christian, Voodoo, Kenyan, Atheist, Commie.

What’s so hard to understand?

You left out shape-shifting alien lizard.

17 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:30:44am

What was this poor man thinking when he decided to run for President?

Why in the hell would any intelligent (wo)man want the job?

18 lostlakehiker  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:30:56am

re: #6 Jeff In Ohio

possible explanations:
0. He’s not a walking encyclopedia and so he gave a paraphrase, not a verbatim quote. 99%
1. he is an evil Nazi atheist 0%
2. he is a secret muslim 0%
3. he is planning on UN subjugation 0%
4. he is an evil communist 0%
5. he is an evil socialist 0%
6. he is a witch 0%
7. he has never read the Declaration of Independence 0%
8. as a real Christian, he’s sick of the Deist creator crap 0%
9. he is planning on taking your guns away 0%
10. he will tax the rich till they are poorupper middle class 1%
11. he masturbates 99% but so what?
12. he’s been palling around with terrorists 0%
13. he married a Klingon 0%
14. he’s not American 0%
15. he is an anti-colonialist 0%
16. he’s stupid 0% but these kinds of stupid objections discredit all talk of serious reservations about his economic policies.

19 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:31:39am

re: #7 Thanos

If the theocrats got their way they would outlaw safe sex …

[Link: www.catholicnewsagency.com…]

“Catholic legal experts.”

lol

20 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:31:53am

There is a subtext here that is not lost on me. These people believe that if you do not accept that our rights are endowed by a creator that you’re either a sub-human or a non-citizen of sort. The fact is that humans have been struggling with the concept of rights long before they invented religion. It is a construct of human evolution or more specifically social evolution that may have included the idea of a creator. However, if we look back at human history we will find that The Enlightenment was a revolt against a nebulous (skyhook) philosophy towards one based on reason.

21 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:32:03am

Why does the President hate our Creator?
/

22 avanti  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:32:25am

It’s getting crazy out there. Even on the Studebaker forum, the web master has to delete political posts that are just cut and pastes of the latest far right outrage. Just this AM, it was about banning ammunition and old cars. They are being whipped into a frenzy in fear of losing all their freedoms, and the fear is being fed.

23 Mark Pennington  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:32:44am

re: #9 Jeff In Ohio

Upon further reflection I’m going with

11. he masturbates

He was obviously wanking behind the podium and got distracted.

Now he’s blind.

ACORN!!!11!

LoL I have a man-crush on you.

What???

24 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:32:50am

re: #19 WindUpBird

“Catholic legal experts.”

lol

Shouldn’t they all be busy working on defending pedophiles?

25 lostlakehiker  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:33:56am

re: #17 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What was this poor man thinking when he decided to run for President?

Why in the hell would any intelligent (wo)man want the job?

It’s the call of duty. You know you’re in for it. But why do people volunteer for the military? Yeah, it’s a job, but as a job, well, the caliber of people the military gets can’t be hired for those kinds of wages and working conditions in the civilian sector.

He thought he could do some good. Maybe he thought wrong; it’s possible with the best of intentions to make a mess of things. Other well-intentioned men have fallen flatter, e.g. Neville Chamberlain. But that’s another debate for another day.

26 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:34:44am

re: #25 lostlakehiker

It’s the call of duty. You know you’re in for it. But why do people volunteer for the military? Yeah, it’s a job, but as a job, well, the caliber of people the military gets can’t be hired for those kinds of wages and working conditions in the civilian sector.

He thought he could do some good. Maybe he thought wrong; it’s possible with the best of intentions to make a mess of things. Other well-intentioned men have fallen flatter, e.g. Neville Chamberlain. But that’s another debate for another day.

Bullshit. He’s a Buildaburger.
/

27 jaunte  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:36:58am

Come the Rapture, this outrage will be unmanned.

28 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:37:14am

re: #25 lostlakehiker

It’s the call of duty. You know you’re in for it. But why do people volunteer for the military? Yeah, it’s a job, but as a job, well, the caliber of people the military gets can’t be hired for those kinds of wages and working conditions in the civilian sector.

He thought he could do some good. Maybe he thought wrong; it’s possible with the best of intentions to make a mess of things. Other well-intentioned men have fallen flatter, e.g. Neville Chamberlain. But that’s another debate for another day.

I think he’s doing good by showing sane America that there’s an insane racist bircher America lurking beneath the surface

29 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:37:20am

OK. I lost my interwebz at home and had to come into work early for this little bit. BBL.

30 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:38:12am
First of all, as I pointed out above, those words were not in Obama’s written speech — he ad-libbed them. It seems incredibly stupid to claim that this reveals some important fact about Obama, but hey — this is the Weekly Standard. It’s what they do.

Do you have a link to the full transcript of the speech… I can’t seem to find one?

31 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:38:13am

re: #25 lostlakehiker

It’s the call of duty. You know you’re in for it. But why do people volunteer for the military? Yeah, it’s a job, but as a job, well, the caliber of people the military gets can’t be hired for those kinds of wages and working conditions in the civilian sector.

He thought he could do some good. Maybe he thought wrong; it’s possible with the best of intentions to make a mess of things. Other well-intentioned men have fallen flatter, e.g. Neville Chamberlain. But that’s another debate for another day.

Obama is doing a great job. Is it some kind of sin to say that?

32 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:39:08am

re: #31 marjoriemoon

Obama is doing a great job. Is it some kind of sin to say that?

well, if you’re libertarian, the answer is probably yes :D

33 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:39:22am

Breaking news! Obama forgets to insert word “Creator” into Declaration of Independence snippet which is followed by a bunch of wingers writing stupid shit.

Film @ 11.

34 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:39:49am

re: #25 lostlakehiker

It’s the call of duty. You know you’re in for it. But why do people volunteer for the military? Yeah, it’s a job, but as a job, well, the caliber of people the military gets can’t be hired for those kinds of wages and working conditions in the civilian sector.

He thought he could do some good. Maybe he thought wrong; it’s possible with the best of intentions to make a mess of things. Other well-intentioned men have fallen flatter, e.g. Neville Chamberlain. But that’s another debate for another day.

And personally, I think by passing health care reform, he’s done incalculable good, but I know you’re a libertarian and also HRGHLGBRGLRGBL about health care reform so hey

35 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:41:28am

re: #15 marjoriemoon

He’s a Muslim, Christian, Voodoo, Kenyan, Atheist, Commie.

What’s so hard to understand?


VOODOO COMMIES!

(I small a blaxploitation epic thriller)

36 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:42:35am

I had a teacher in high school who would advance the possibility that there was no God in one class that he taught. Until one year, a senior girl committed suicide, and the rumor was she had lost her faith after taking that class. I took the class after that, and I think he had changed the way he taught it. (Hard to say, since I only heard about earlier versions.)

Anyway, I would no more take away someone’s faith than take away someone’s serotonin reuptake inhibitors, but wouldn’t it be nice if nobody needed serotonin reuptake inhibitors?

37 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:42:43am

re: #27 jaunte

Come the Rapture, this outrage will be unmanned.

The best part of the Rapture will be all the pretentious assholes who assumed they’ld be taken but got left here.

38 wee fury  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:43:10am

re: #21 Cannadian Club Akbar

Why does the President hate our Creator?
/

He must be trying to make amends — because he went to church last week.
/

39 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:43:25am

re: #37 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The best part of the Rapture will be all the pretentious assholes who assumed they’ld be taken but got left here.

Dammit!
I don’t want them here!

40 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:43:40am

Does anyone have a link to the written speech as he was suppose to present it BEFORE he made the ad lib mentioned above?

41 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:45:36am

Remarks by the President at the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute’s 33rd Annual Awards Gala

Excerpt:

[…]

So let me close by saying this. Long before America was even an idea, this land of plenty was home to many peoples. To British and French, to Dutch and Spanish, to Mexican — (applause) — to countless Indian tribes. We all shared the same land. We didn’t always get along. But over the centuries, what eventually bound us together — what made us all Americans — was not a matter of blood, it wasn’t a matter of birth. It was faith and fidelity to the shared values that we all hold so dear. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, endowed with certain inalienable rights: life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[…]

Thank you. God bless you, and God bless the United States of America. Thank you. (Applause.)

42 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:46:49am

re: #39 Varek Raith

Dammit!
I don’t want them here!

Oh, but the mocking will be great.

43 Enlino  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:47:13am

I think the worst part of the conservative re-interpretation of history is how they insist everyone was a devout christian, even when there is not only a lack of evidence, but in fact directly contradictory evidence.

44 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:47:27am

re: #42 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh, but the mocking will be great.

Oh yeah!
This will be awesome then!

45 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:48:03am

re: #41 Gus 802

God bless you,

…but not necessarily with inalienable rights.

/

46 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:48:46am

re: #36 wrenchwench People who discourage proven medical mental health remedies and people who denegrate others faith are cut of the same cloth. Judgemental busy bodies who don’t have anything better to do than criticise what they don’t understand.

Outside of a few trusted friends, parents, doctors or spiritual leaders when someone comes to you with an unsolicited “here’s what I think you should do…”

Run. Do not walk. Run away!

47 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:49:55am

re: #41 Gus 802

Remarks by the President at the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute’s 33rd Annual Awards Gala

Excerpt:

That’s the transcript of the speech as he delivered it.

There are numerous reports that it wasn’t in the written speech: President Obama Ad-Lib Leaves Out ‘Creator’.

If you look at President Obama’s prepared remarks before the speech was delivered, the Declaration of Independence line was not in there so clearly President Obama ad-libbed the line…and gets it wrong.

48 CarleeCork  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:50:30am

re: #20 Gus 802

There is a subtext here that is not lost on me. These people believe that if you do not accept that our rights are endowed by a creator that you’re either a sub-human or a non-citizen of sort. The fact is that humans have been struggling with the concept of rights long before they invented religion. It is a construct of human evolution or more specifically social evolution that may have included the idea of a creator. However, if we look back at human history we will find that The Enlightenment was a revolt against a nebulous (skyhook) philosophy towards one based on reason.


Remember, G.H.W. said atheists weren’t citizens.

49 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:50:39am

re: #45 wrenchwench

…but not necessarily with inalienable rights.

/

True!

Check out the preceding sentence:

It was faith and fidelity to the shared values that we all hold so dear.

So he had faith and closed with an appeal towards God.

50 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:50:44am

re: #44 Varek Raith

Oh yeah!
This will be awesome then!

Oh, Hi Bob, didn’t expect to see you still around. What happened?
/snicker

51 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:51:52am

re: #47 Charles

That’s the transcript of the speech as he delivered it.

There are numerous reports that it wasn’t in the written speech: President Obama Ad-Lib Leaves Out ‘Creator’.

Exactly. Which is what I mentioned yesterday morning or Sunday. That it was just an ad-libbed inclusion.

52 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:54:04am

That inclusion of the powers all men are endowed with was hearfelt and patriotic. It was not intended to exclude anyone.

What do these critics think endowed means anyway? Powers from the Post Office? Powers from Sesame Street?

Brother.

53 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:54:58am

Remarks by the President at United States Military Academy at West Point Commencement
Michie Stadium, West Point, New York
May 22, 2010

Excerpt:

But this nation was founded upon a different notion. We believe, “that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” (Applause.) And that truth has bound us together, a nation populated by people from around the globe, enduring hardship and achieving greatness as one people. And that belief is as true today as it was 200 years ago. It is a belief that has been claimed by people of every race and religion in every region of the world. Can anybody doubt that this belief will be any less true — any less powerful — two years, two decades, or even two centuries from now?

54 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:55:11am

re: #53 Gus 802

Link: [Link: www.whitehouse.gov…]

55 allegro  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:55:16am

But… but… atheists are parasites! A rabbi said so on Glen Beck’s show so it’s gotta be true and OBAMA is a ATHEIST PARASITE! BOOGA!

56 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:55:42am

re: #47 Charles

That’s the transcript of the speech as he delivered it.

There are numerous reports that it wasn’t in the written speech: President Obama Ad-Lib Leaves Out ‘Creator’.

And that is what I am asking… David Brody says “If you look at President Obama’s prepared remarks before the speech was delivered, the Declaration of Independence line was not in there so clearly President Obama ad-libbed the line…and gets it wrong.”

Do you know where a copy of those prepared remarks can be found?

57 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:55:48am

re: #53 Gus 802

Remarks by the President at United States Military Academy at West Point Commencement
Michie Stadium, West Point, New York
May 22, 2010

Excerpt:

But this nation was founded upon a different notion. We believe, “that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” (Applause.) And that truth has bound us together, a nation populated by people from around the globe, enduring hardship and achieving greatness as one people. And that belief is as true today as it was 200 years ago. It is a belief that has been claimed by people of every race and religion in every region of the world. Can anybody doubt that this belief will be any less true — any less powerful — two years, two decades, or even two centuries from now?

Oh stop with your facts already :p

58 lostlakehiker  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:55:54am

re: #20 Gus 802

There is a subtext here that is not lost on me. These people believe that if you do not accept that our rights are endowed by a creator that you’re either a sub-human or a non-citizen of sort. The fact is that humans have been struggling with the concept of rights long before they invented religion. It is a construct of human evolution or more specifically social evolution that may have included the idea of a creator. However, if we look back at human history we will find that The Enlightenment was a revolt against a nebulous (skyhook) philosophy towards one based on reason.

I think that to be fair to fundamentalists, what they believe is that if you do not accept that our rights are inherent and God-given, then you must figure that “rights” are a construct of human evolution and social evolution, and are thus up for debate.

They don’t want rights to be up for debate. They want them to be axiomatic, because the moment they’re up for debate, there’s always a case for why rights shouldn’t be taken all that seriously in the case at hand.

Now this is mistaken thinking, but the mistake is subtle. Once we grant that Pastor Jones ought to pay the security bill attendant upon his loose talk about Quran burning, because it serves him right and it would be a sweet comeuppance, we’re stuck with the precedent the next time somebody wants to burn, say, a U.S. flag, and there are security costs.

Fundamentalists don’t want to have to go through a torturous logical and moral back and forth every time such a question comes up. They want it by-God-settled. Rights are rights, period. No more debate.

They’ve never been comfortable with the sort of infinite-regression, scenario-driven moral reasoning that atheists must work through to get their answers. That’s why they’re fundamentalists, I’d guess. They fear the worst from such reasoning. They have no faith in the essential goodness of nonbelievers.

This is not entirely unreasonable. The essential goodness of humanity is sometimes hard to believe in.

59 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:58:28am

re: #57 marjoriemoon

Oh stop with your facts already :p

I’ve got another one! ;)

Remarks by the President at Independence Day Celebration
Blue Room Balcony
July 4, 2010

Excerpt:

Two hundred and thirty-four years later, the words are just as bold, just as revolutionary, as they were when they were first pronounced: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

These are not simply words on aging parchment. They are the principles that define us as a nation, the values we cherish as a people, and the ideals we strive for as a society, even as we know that we constantly have to work in order to perfect our union, and that work is never truly done.

60 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 10:59:36am

Here is the prepared remarks for anyone who would like to see them…

[Link: www.theblaze.com…]

61 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:00:47am

re: #56 Walter L. Newton

And that is what I am asking… David Brody says “If you look at President Obama’s prepared remarks before the speech was delivered, the Declaration of Independence line was not in there so clearly President Obama ad-libbed the line…and gets it wrong.”

Do you know where a copy of those prepared remarks can be found?

I’m not understanding the importance of this. He left it out, which I think would make you pretty happy anyway.

I can tell you that it was absolutely unintentional because he has already quoted the passage many times as it was originally written, he’s a constitutional scholar and knows the document better than anyone here to begin with, and the whole point of the speech was about fairness and justice to all people. So why should anyone care?

62 Political Atheist  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:01:48am

Imagining concepts and principals that are larger than ourselves, yet not from a God is hard for people to grasp. Yet these are larger than ourselves.

63 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:02:08am

re: #61 marjoriemoon

I’m not understanding the importance of this. He left it out, which I think would make you pretty happy anyway.

I can tell you that it was absolutely unintentional because he has already quoted the passage many times as it was originally written, he’s a constitutional scholar and knows the document better than anyone here to begin with, and the whole point of the speech was about fairness and justice to all people. So why should anyone care?

I’m not questioning why he left it out… I just wanted to compare speeches… I found it myself… so, there is no problem.

Gee… guilty conscience or something?

64 FQ Kafir  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:02:41am

Ridiculous talking point. The GOP and their knee-jerk outrages are getting tiresome.

65 Lidane  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:03:02am

re: #35 WindUpBird

VOODOO COMMIES!

66 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:04:15am

re: #35 WindUpBird

VOODOO COMMIES!

(I small a blaxploitation epic thriller)

Do you tell the difference between a VOODOO COMMIE and a ZOMBIE SOCIALIST by checking for the small red star tattooed on the back of the neck?

67 Buck  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:04:53am

No big deal, but I suspect that if President GW Bush had ad-libbed the line…and got it wrong, the left would have known right away why… it would be because he is stupid….

68 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:06:34am

re: #67 Buck

No big deal, but I suspect that if President GW Bush had ad-libbed the line…and got it wrong, the left would have known right away why… it would be because he is stupid…

Which left? The rational one, the insane one, or the simple broad-brush one where all the lefties came out of a box straight from the duplicator?

/

69 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:08:13am

Yo! Lawhawk. Check your ding on #41. ;)

70 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:09:56am

re: #67 Buck

No big deal, but I suspect that if President GW Bush had ad-libbed the line…and got it wrong, the left would have known right away why… it would be because he is stupid…

Yea, because GWB had no problems with speech and language. LOL

I got it now. The Right is jealous that Obama is 100x smarter than Bush ever imagined he could be so they have to keep knocking him off the ledge.

Another word for it would be uppity… sigh…

71 mikhailtheplumber  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:11:09am

Dear wingnuts:

Either president Obama is a secret Muslim, or he is an atheist who does not believe in a creator.

He cannot be both.

Get your paranoia and filthy lies in order.

Best Regards,
Mik

72 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:11:24am

re: #70 marjoriemoon

Yea, because GWB had no problems with speech and language. LOL

I got it now. The Right is jealous that Obama is 100x smarter than Bush ever imagined he could be so they have to keep knocking him off the ledge.

Another word for it would be uppity… sigh…

No… another word for it would be Joe Biden…

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” Biden said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

73 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:11:42am

re: #66 oaktree

Do you tell the difference between a VOODOO COMMIE and a ZOMBIE SOCIALIST by checking for the small red star tattooed on the back of the neck?

That would be something of a next Hendrix quote by Obama, “lord knows I’m a voodoo child!”

74 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:11:50am

re: #69 Gus 802

Misdinged.. since fixed.

75 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:12:28am

re: #71 mikhailtheplumber

Dear wingnuts:

Either president Obama is a secret Muslim, or he is an atheist who does not believe in a creator.

He cannot be both.

Get your paranoia and filthy lies in order.

Best Regards,
Mik

Or a pandering politician that plays all sides.

Best Regards

76 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:12:48am

re: #74 lawhawk

Misdinged.. since fixed.

Thanks! I have a radar for that and it seemed odd. :)

77 Buck  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:13:05am

re: #70 marjoriemoon

Yea, because GWB had no problems with speech and language. LOL

I got it now. The Right is jealous that Obama is 100x smarter than Bush ever imagined he could be so they have to keep knocking him off the ledge.

Another word for it would be uppity… sigh…

Yep, every criticism of Obama is racist in nature. You took a long route to show it this time… but ya the only reason to point this out is racist.

/sarc.

78 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:14:21am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

Or a pandering politician that plays all sides.

Best Regards

Pandering? Really? So a pandering politician leaves out “Creator” in front of a Hispanic audience? Hmm, last I checked Hispanics were very high on the Creator scale.

79 garhighway  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:14:36am

OT: It looks like Susan Collins,. a so-called “moderate Republican”, won’t vote to break the filibuster on DADT. Absent someone else breaking ranks, the filibuster will hold and DADT will remain the law of the land.

There you go, folks: that is a “moderate Republican”.

80 jaunte  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:14:52am

re: #78 Gus 802

Crafty, isn’t it?

81 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:15:22am

OK folks. We’ve got to speak in front of a Hispanic audience. Let’s not mention God or the Creator. You know how those Catholic Hispanics get about that.

//

82 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:15:24am

re: #78 Gus 802

Pandering? Really? So a pandering politician leaves out “Creator” in front of a Hispanic audience? Hmm, last I checked Hispanics were very high on the Creator scale.

You promised to gaze… I took you for your word… gee… I’m so disappointed :) Just for that… I’m going to have to give you…

Point.

83 mikhailtheplumber  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:15:38am

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

No… another word for it would be Joe Biden…

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” Biden said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

You seem to quote this a lot.
Just saying.

84 Lidane  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:15:38am

re: #79 garhighway

There you go, folks: that is a “moderate Republican”.

*sigh*

85 garhighway  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:16:25am

re: #83 mikhailtheplumber

You seem to quote this a lot.
Just saying.

When all you have is a hammer…

86 Nick Schroeder  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:16:35am

It would make my day if he left it out on purpose. It’s high time we left childish things behind us and, at the very least, it’s nice for once to have a President that acknowledges those of us who don’t believe mythology to be true. I hope those who come after Obama follow this precedent, but I won’t hold my breath.

87 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:17:41am

re: #85 garhighway

When all you have is a hammer…

Everything looks like a watermelon.

—Gallagher

88 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:18:35am

re: #77 Buck

Yep, every criticism of Obama is racist in nature. You took a long route to show it this time… but ya the only reason to point this out is racist.

/sarc.

The constant reference to his African roots is suspect. Not every (did I say EVERY?) but certainly many.

To make fun of his constitutional understanding or to use a misspeak to prove his religious beliefs is ludicrous. Especially when Bush oftentimes had difficulty framing complete sentences. And you brought that up, not me.

89 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:19:17am

re: #86 Nick Schroeder

It would make my day if he left it out on purpose. It’s high time we left childish things behind us and, at the very least, it’s nice for once to have a President that acknowledges those of us who don’t believe mythology to be true. I hope those who come after Obama follow this precedent, but I won’t hold my breath.

I wouldn’t mind if we could find politicians who would admit that they are atheist… they would get my vote faster than most.

90 Lidane  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:24:09am

re: #67 Buck

I suspect that if President GW Bush had ad-libbed the line…and got it wrong, the wingnuts would have known right away why… it would be because he isn’t Christian enough, or a RINO…

FTFY

And therein lies the problem— the wingnuts want a certain literalism and partisan fealty to their narrow religious interpretations, and not everyone is going to share that.

91 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:24:39am

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

You promised to gaze… I took you for your word… gee… I’m so disappointed :) Just for that… I’m going to have to give you…

Point.

I couldn’t resist. I think if one were a cynical and pandering politician speaking in front of a Hispanic audience they would dial up the talk of God or Creator rather than down.

92 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:25:37am

I remember the kagan nomination hearings in which a senator was pestering Ms Kagan on whether she thought that the Second Amendment was a God-given right.

The logic being, I guess, that if they dare to try and take it away, then God wants us to defend it in His Name.

93 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:26:23am

re: #89 Walter L. Newton

I wouldn’t mind if we could find politicians who would admit that they are atheist… they would get my vote faster than most.

An openly atheist American political candidate has about the same chance of winning as an openly practicing satanist.

94 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:26:52am

re: #91 Gus 802

I couldn’t resist. I think if one were a cynical and pandering politician speaking in front of a Hispanic audience they would dial up the talk of God or Creator rather than down.

Then that was really dumb ass to make that sort of mistake at a function of that nature with that audience.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

95 allegro  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:27:25am

re: #93 Fozzie Bear

An openly atheist American political candidate has about the same chance of winning as an openly practicing satanist.

In the fundie brain, I suspect those two terms are interchangeable.

96 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:27:28am

re: #93 Fozzie Bear

An openly atheist American political candidate has about the same chance of winning as an openly practicing satanist.

I don’t give two-shits about politics, religion or anything else at this moment… only…

How are you doing?

97 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:30:02am

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

Struggling, but surviving. Not great, but there are millions doing a lot worse, so I can’t complain further than to say it’s frustrating as hell. I ranted about it a few days ago, but I’m a decent enough mood right now, so i’ll refrain.

I hope all is well in the Rockies.

98 steve_davis  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:30:03am

re: #36 wrenchwench

I had a teacher in high school who would advance the possibility that there was no God in one class that he taught. Until one year, a senior girl committed suicide, and the rumor was she had lost her faith after taking that class. I took the class after that, and I think he had changed the way he taught it. (Hard to say, since I only heard about earlier versions.)

Anyway, I would no more take away someone’s faith than take away someone’s serotonin reuptake inhibitors, but wouldn’t it be nice if nobody needed serotonin reuptake inhibitors?

I caused a middle-aged student to break down in class when I mentioned that The Road Not Taken is not a redemptive poem about the puritanical work ethic and the value of the straight and narrow, but is a nihilistic poem by a manic-depressive who thinks it doesn’t matter what choices we make because all paths lay equally before us, and the traveling wears them all about the same.

99 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:30:04am

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

No… another word for it would be Joe Biden…

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” Biden said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

I’m tearing the VP’s statement apart word-by-word, and there is no part of it I disagree with (assuming the “first” means “first reasonably electable candidate”).
The President seems to agree with it as well, or Mr Biden would be attending more funerals of Ibo chieftains.

100 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:30:43am

re: #93 Fozzie Bear

An openly atheist American political candidate has about the same chance of winning as an openly practicing satanist.

It’s already been done!!11ty

Image: Bones_logo.jpg

101 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:30:50am

re: #67 Buck

What’s your point?
The right is already doing what the left would’ve done under Bush.

102 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:32:11am

re: #77 Buck

Drop the victim routine.
Kthxbai!

103 engineer cat  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:32:17am

galllup “would you vote for a” question:

catholic 95%
black 94%
jewish 92%
woman 88%
hispanic 87%
mormon 72%
married 3 times 67%
72 years old 57%
homosexual 55%
atheist 45%

as an atheist, i felt a distinct chill reading this poll

104 allegro  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:32:51am

re: #101 Varek Raith

What’s your point?
The right is already doing what the left would’ve done under Bush.

I doubt the left would have even noticed. There were too many real things to get worked up about.

105 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:33:38am

re: #103 engineer dog

galllup “would you vote for a” question:

catholic 95%
black 94%
jewish 92%
woman 88%
hispanic 87%
mormon 72%
married 3 times 67%
72 years old 57%
homosexual 55%
atheist 45%

as an atheist, i felt a distinct chill reading this poll

Americans are nothing if not incredibly superstitious.

106 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:34:08am

re: #103 engineer dog

Meh, screw ‘em. Atheist have freakier sex. It’s worth the price of admission.

107 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:35:37am

re: #97 Fozzie Bear

Struggling, but surviving. Not great, but there are millions doing a lot worse, so I can’t complain further than to say it’s frustrating as hell. I ranted about it a few days ago, but I’m a decent enough mood right now, so i’ll refrain.

I hope all is well in the Rockies.

I saw your rant the other day… that’s why I asked. Ok… I keep it at that… things are alright here. Step daughter was walking the two big dogs yesterday, got twisted up in them, fell, tore a ACL and caused a avulsion fracture… going to see the surgeon tomorrow… probably gonna take a while to fix and heal… and she just started a job about a month ago… her first real job… bummer.

108 Red Lion  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:35:37am

Agreed, Charles. But don’t you wish Obama would quit stepping in it with stupid stuff like this? I wish he would have rammed some judicial appointments through while he had a majority in Congress. I read the other days he’s done a historically bad job at that … Some Chicago machine pol!

109 allegro  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:35:56am

re: #106 Jeff In Ohio

Meh, screw ‘em. Atheist have freakier sex. It’s worth the price of admission.

Certainly openly enjoyable without guilt or some weird remorse.

110 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:36:06am

re: #103 engineer dog

galllup “would you vote for a” question:

catholic 95%
black 94%
jewish 92%
woman 88%
hispanic 87%
mormon 72%
married 3 times 67%
72 years old 57%
homosexual 55%
atheist 45%

as an atheist, i felt a distinct chill reading this poll

Yeah. Then you have half the Tea Party people idolizing Ayn Rand, Geert Wilders and Christopher Hitchens (on the Iraq War). But Wilders is the point man for anti-Islam rhetoric and he’s a big old atheist.

111 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:36:47am

re: #106 Jeff In Ohio

Meh, screw ‘em. Atheist have freakier sex. It’s worth the price of admission.

I have always felt that you can’t really truly be a physical, animal being in the fullest sense of the word until you admit to yourself that all you really are is an animal.

It’s liberating for me to know that I am just a creature, nothing more or less.

112 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:36:50am

re: #110 Gus 802

Shut yo’ mouth.

113 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:37:53am

re: #103 engineer dog

galllup “would you vote for a” question:

catholic 95%
black 94%
jewish 92%
woman 88%
hispanic 87%
mormon 72%
married 3 times 67%
72 years old 57%
homosexual 55%
atheist 45%

as an atheist, i felt a distinct chill reading this poll

So an old Mormon lesbian would poll about twice as well as Ms. O’donnell. I take a little comfort in that.

114 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:37:56am

re: #107 Walter L. Newton

I saw your rant the other day… that’s why I asked. Ok… I keep it at that… things are alright here. Step daughter was walking the two big dogs yesterday, got twisted up in them, fell, tore a ACL and caused a avulsion fracture… going to see the surgeon tomorrow… probably gonna take a while to fix and heal… and she just started a job about a month ago… her first real job… bummer.

P.S. Avulsion fracture… nasty little thing… it’s when the tendon pull/shifts so far and violently that it takes a piece of bone with it… her doc says it’s a nasty break which probably will need surgery.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

115 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:38:13am

re: #98 steve_davis

You must be evil.

I’m going to have to re-read that poem.

116 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:40:51am

Damn. They went nuts with this one.

[Link: www.google.com…]

117 prairiefire  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:41:32am

re: #107 Walter L. Newton

That is too bad! I hope she perseveres on the job front. re: #110 Gus 802

Yeah. Then you have half the Tea Party people idolizing Ayn Rand, Geert Wilders and Christopher Hitchens (on the Iraq War). But Wilders is the point man for anti-Islam rhetoric and he’s a big old atheist.

There is so little cohesion of thought among the TP’s, I’ve given up. They just have to wind down like an overwound toy.
A rush of hot air!

118 sattv4u2  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:42:27am

re: #113 Decatur Deb

So an old Mormon lesbian would poll about twice as well as Ms. O’donnell. I take a little comfort in that.

I did not know that about you!!

///

119 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:42:48am

Definite cranky day today at work. Noisy in the new space, and folk out of no where asking me priority questions about stuff I have not been briefed on. Time to hunker down and play a little music on the headphones while I chase wild geese around a few databases. (Spinning a little Watermelon Slim and the Workers since it seems appropriate.)

120 prairiefire  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:42:58am

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

P.S. Avulsion fracture… nasty little thing… it’s when the tendon pull/shifts so far and violently that it takes a piece of bone with it… her doc says it’s a nasty break which probably will need surgery.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Sounds like when my daughter’s tendon pulled a small growth plate bone in her foot so far out it broke. Get a cast on it, that’s best. It helps manage the pain quite a bit.

121 sattv4u2  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:43:03am

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

P.S. Avulsion fracture… nasty little thing… it’s when the tendon pull/shifts so far and violently that it takes a piece of bone with it… her doc says it’s a nasty break which probably will need surgery.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

ouchies!

122 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:43:24am

re: #118 sattv4u2

I did not know that about you!!

///

If nominated, I will not run, if elected…

123 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:44:26am

re: #103 engineer dog

galllup “would you vote for a” question:

catholic 95%
black 94%
jewish 92%
woman 88%
hispanic 87%
mormon 72%
married 3 times 67%
72 years old 57%
homosexual 55%
atheist 45%

as an atheist, i felt a distinct chill reading this poll

You guys gotta get out there an proselytize! /

124 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:44:36am

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

I’m sorry to hear about your stepdaughter’s injury. Hopefully, she makes a full recovery. Nobody is tougher than the young. It’s like they are made of a fundamentally different material than the rest of us.

A year or so ago, I climbed a tree while out hiking, and, without thinking much about it, jumped out of the tree to land on my feet from about 15’-20’ up, much like I had done a thousand times without incident as a child and as a teenager. My knees didn’t forgive me for about a week. It felt like somebody had stuck knives through them.

So anyway, I hope she heals quickly and fully. ACL injuries suuuuck, but the surgical remedies for them have come a long way in the past 10-20 years.

125 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:44:54am

re: #119 oaktree

Definite cranky day today at work. Noisy in the new space, and folk out of no where asking me priority questions about stuff I have not been briefed on. Time to hunker down and play a little music on the headphones while I chase wild geese around a few databases. (Spinning a little Watermelon Slim and the Workers since it seems appropriate.)

I find a furrowed brow keeps people at bay. If you can add a lip sneer, they will most likely avoid you for the full day.

126 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:45:04am

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

P.S. Avulsion fracture… nasty little thing… it’s when the tendon pull/shifts so far and violently that it takes a piece of bone with it… her doc says it’s a nasty break which probably will need surgery.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Ow. Will it keep her out of her job for long?

127 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:46:34am

re: #113 Decatur Deb

So an old Mormon lesbian would poll about twice as well as Ms. O’donnell. I take a little comfort in that.


You know normally I jump right into discussion about Mormons. I think I’m gonna show greater restraint on this comment.

128 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:47:06am

re: #123 DaddyG

You guys gotta get out there an proselytize! /

It’s kind of a hard message to sell aggressively.

“THERE’S NOTHING TO GET ALL THAT WORKED UP ABOUT! EMBRACE YOUR MORTALITY! MORALITY IS A SOCIALLY NECESSARY BUT ENTIRELY HUMAN CONSTRUCT!”

It’s just not good billboard material.

129 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:47:08am

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

Hope she feels better dude…

130 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:47:37am

re: #125 MrSilverDragon

I find a furrowed brow keeps people at bay. If you can add a lip sneer, they will most likely avoid you for the full day.

I’ve settled for back to the door, looking busy, and having the M&M jar on the far side of the room (seats 7-8 people) as a diversion. And considering having my Blackberry suffer a sudden “battery failure”…

131 Gus  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:48:40am

re: #108 Red Lion

Concern troll is concerned.

132 deranged cat  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:49:34am

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

P.S. Avulsion fracture… nasty little thing… it’s when the tendon pull/shifts so far and violently that it takes a piece of bone with it… her doc says it’s a nasty break which probably will need surgery.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

i wish her the best, and a speedy recovery!

133 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:50:11am

re: #126 Decatur Deb

Ow. Will it keep her out of her job for long?

Probably…

134 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:50:23am

re: #128 Fozzie Bear

It’s kind of a hard message to sell aggressively.

“THERE’S NOTHING TO GET ALL THAT WORKED UP ABOUT! EMBRACE YOUR MORTALITY! MORALITY IS A SOCIALLY NECESSARY BUT ENTIRELY HUMAN CONSTRUCT!”

It’s just not good billboard material.


Point is, nearly all of us have a religious sense, it just finds different means of expression in different cultures and different individuals.

The militant athiesm of my youth was a reaction to my upbringing as a child and to the Campus Crusade for Christ types who infested our campus in the late 70’s/early 80’s.

I have since mellowed and am able to accept any religion that is willing to accept that there are other ways to finding God/enlightenment, etc…

135 CuriousLurker  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:52:07am

I think it’s kind of silly to fuss over where our rights originate. They were codified by our founding fathers. That is a fact.

Which ideas might have influenced their thinking and sparked debate among them is impossible to know with certainty unless one was present at the time, IMO. Whatever those ideas were, they managed to work them out and agree upon a final document that removed organized religion from the picture. That is a fact.

Even if rights came down directly from God, we’d STILL be dependent on man to interpret and implement them. That is a fact. And we all know how wonderfully that has worked out through the ages. /

Personally, looking at history and the current state of the world, I prefer to stick with what we have. The religious right can go take a long hysterical walk off a short pier. As an admitted believer would it sound really weird for me to say, “Thank God the founding fathers had the good sense to leave religion out of it”?

136 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:52:11am

re: #134 ralphieboy

Point is, nearly all of us have a religious sense, it just finds different means of expression in different cultures and different individuals.

The militant athiesm of my youth was a reaction to my upbringing as a child and to the Campus Crusade for Christ types who infested our campus in the late 70’s/early 80’s.

I have since mellowed and am able to accept any religion that is willing to accept that there are other ways to finding God/enlightenment, etc…

I consider myself lucky to have started out pretty far down that path. Was raised by a lapsed Catholic father and a Unitarian Universalist mother. Not sure what religion my mother was raised under, though I do know she was baptized.

137 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:52:27am

And thanks ALL… she’s hanging in there… we got her a walker, she’s hobbling around… sees surgeon tomorrow… we’ll know more then…

And on that note, to bed… had to work an 8 hour overnight last night for the regular night cashier… who took a personal day… so… nap time… be back later to annoy you all.

Best regards…

Mr. Crankypants.

138 garhighway  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:52:40am

Bad Weirdness in Michigan:
A Michigan Asst AG has set up a personal blog devoted to cyber-stalking the University of Michigan student body president because he (the U of M student) is gay. It is creepy.

[Link: abovethelaw.com…]

139 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:53:41am

re: #128 Fozzie Bear

It’s kind of a hard message to sell aggressively.

“THERE’S NOTHING TO GET ALL THAT WORKED UP ABOUT! EMBRACE YOUR MORTALITY! MORALITY IS A SOCIALLY NECESSARY BUT ENTIRELY HUMAN CONSTRUCT!”

It’s just not good billboard material.


How about…
Atheism - you save every day with our low low prices.
or Easier on the knees and back than 4 out of 5 world religions.

140 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:53:47am

re: #133 Walter L. Newton

I hope they at least hold the slot for her. One of my kids has been out, with a short temp, since Christmas.

141 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:55:02am

re: #139 DaddyG

How about…
Atheism - you save every day with our low low prices.
or Easier on the knees and back than 4 out of 5 world religions.

Agnosticism—We Know What We Don’t Know.

142 mikhailtheplumber  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:55:06am

re: #123 DaddyG

You guys gotta get out there an proselytize! /

You mean, like this?

143 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:56:14am

re: #135 CuriousLurker

There is a sinister side to it: there are people who insist that these “God Given Rights” supersede the Constitution wherever they disagree with it.

That is the logic behind the abortion clinic bombings and murders, it is the logic behind the militias and extremist groups.

144 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 11:56:43am

re: #134 ralphieboy
Campus Crusade for Christ scared the crud out of me. I won’t generalize because I don’t know all of the CCC but our local branch was very high pressure.

It was the very patient and low pressure sharing (and it was really sharing) of my Mormon friend that made it easier for me to hear and eventually accept his Church’s teachings. I eventually had my “pentacostal” moment but his willingness to listen and share with his agnostic friend without conditions kept me interested in what he had to share. He also quietly lived what he believed without sticking it in my face.

145 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:00:03pm

re: #142 mikhailtheplumber

Heh. To be quite honest the missionaries don’t like bashing on peoples doors on Saturday morning either. They much prefer to make appointments with people who call the church information line or who are referred by friends (with permission).

That was hilarious though. He did get one thing wrong. The suicide cults wear purple robes not orange. :-D

146 CuriousLurker  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:02:11pm

re: #143 ralphieboy

There is a sinister side to it: there are people who insist that these “God Given Rights” supersede the Constitution wherever they disagree with it.

QFT

147 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:02:25pm

My definition of Agnosticism: I’m not quite sure of the truth, but I’m pretty sure you’re full of shit.

148 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:05:25pm

re: #145 DaddyG

Heh. To be quite honest the missionaries don’t like bashing on peoples doors on Saturday morning either. They much prefer to make appointments with people who call the church information line or who are referred by friends (with permission).

That was hilarious though. He did get one thing wrong. The suicide cults wear purple robes not orange. :-D

Our family was at a food stand in a part of Seoul that was far from our US base. Two kids on bikes with neckties and helmets rode up. Surprise all around.

149 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:05:26pm

re: #145 DaddyG

Heh. To be quite honest the missionaries don’t like bashing on peoples doors on Saturday morning either. They much prefer to make appointments with people who call the church information line or who are referred by friends (with permission).

That was hilarious though. He did get one thing wrong. The suicide cults wear purple robes not orange. :-D

My father took a sort of perverse glee in inviting the door-to-door folk in and then politely backing them into logical corners. Combination of a Catholic upbringing, college education as an engineer, and a warped sense of humor.

(The Steve Martin bit about speaking gibberish around a friend’s child so that they learn English all wrong would have been something he would pull. Give him a chance to yank someone’s chain good and hard and he would seriously consider doing it. And it wasn’t just him, that whole side of the family is insane. Not that there’s anything wrong with that…)

150 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:06:35pm
151 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:06:57pm

GOP has blocked DADT in the senate

152 sattv4u2  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:07:06pm

re: #144 DaddyG

One of my sons best friends comes from a Mormon family
We have become great friends with them, knowing them for all 11 years we’ve been here. Their oldest son is on his mission now in South America. He attended BYU, and both sisters are there now and the child my son hangs out with (they are High School Juniors) as well as the youngest brother will also go to BYU
Not once in the 11 years we’ve known them have they ever tried to “recruit” us (we are Roman Catholic)

153 sattv4u2  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:07:43pm

re: #148 Decatur Deb

Our family was at a food stand in a part of Seoul that was far from our US base. Two kids on bikes with neckties and helmets rode up. Surprise all around.

Seouls version of Hells Angels!!!!

154 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:11:09pm

re: #147 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My definition of Agnosticism: I’m not quite sure of the truth, but I’m pretty sure you’re full of shit.

One of my bosses used to tell me he’s agnostic because atheism was too committal.

I got a chuckle over that for the entire day.

155 sattv4u2  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:11:51pm

re: #150 Dreggas

*sigh*

DADT Repeal blocked in Senate.

And now, for the REST of the story
Republican senators argued that passing repeal now would undermine the Defense Department’s review of the policy, which won’t be completed until Decembe
The language in the bill provides that DADT wouldn’t be repealed until 60 days after the review is complete

looks as if they just want to wait till the review is complete, as it should be imho

156 Liberal Classic  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:12:18pm

re: #149 oaktree

The Steve Martin bit about speaking gibberish around a friend’s child so that they learn English all wrong would have been something he would pull.

May I mambo dogface to the banana patch?

157 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:12:19pm

re: #139 DaddyG

How about…
Atheism - you save every day with our low low prices.
or Easier on the knees and back than 4 out of 5 world religions.

Don’t want to miss that Sunday game?
Be an atheist!
/

158 garhighway  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:12:26pm

re: #150 Dreggas

*sigh*

DADT Repeal blocked in Senate.

There you go:

Country First.

159 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:12:54pm

re: #158 garhighway

There you go:

Country First.

Don’t forget that they have Western too!

160 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:13:30pm

re: #155 sattv4u2

Israel has no problems with gays in its military.
The DoD is full of shit on this one.
Far to much religion has been allowed to dominate the armed forces.

161 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:13:33pm

re: #149 oaktree We’re pretty quick to tell our young men and women not to argue. Just teach what you know.

If someone disagrees or doesn’t want to hear it then thank them for their time and move on.

This doesn’t always work. There are always hotshots who want to bash with the local fundamentalist Christians or the local Catholic priest, but for the most part that is discouraged. Frankly its not effective for gaining converts and it certainly doesn’t demonstrate any kind of charity or security on the part of the missionary.

162 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:13:43pm

re: #158 garhighway

There you go:

Country First.

They did it for the troops

“Some Republicans have suggested they fear troops who openly oppose gay service would be punished for speaking out.”

Bullshit

163 garhighway  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:14:57pm

re: #155 sattv4u2

And now, for the REST of the story
Republican senators argued that passing repeal now would undermine the Defense Department’s review of the policy, which won’t be completed until Decembe
The language in the bill provides that DADT wouldn’t be repealed until 60 days after the review is complete

looks as if they just want to wait till the review is complete, as it should be imho

What is to review?
The policy is so obviously wrong.
Enough with Pentagon rope-a-dope. Repeal it.

164 sattv4u2  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:14:57pm

re: #160 Varek Raith

Israel has no problems with gays in its military.
The DoD is full of shit on this one.
Far to much religion has been allowed to dominate the armed forces.

I could give a rats ass less if someone is gay and wants to serve
More power to them (and a HUGE salute)

That stated, looks as if the DoD is still in the midst of the review and McCain (et al) just want to wait for the results

165 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:15:27pm

re: #162 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They did it for the troops

“Some Republicans have suggested they fear troops who openly oppose integration would be punished for speaking out.”

Bullshit

See what I did there, Republicans???

166 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:15:34pm

re: #103 engineer dog

galllup “would you vote for a” question:

catholic 95%
black 94%
jewish 92%
woman 88%
hispanic 87%
mormon 72%
married 3 times 67%
72 years old 57%
homosexual 55%
atheist 45%

as an atheist, i felt a distinct chill reading this poll

No doubt that we are indeed an extremely small minority in the US, ergo easy target. This is why the Pope is trying to deflect heat by targeting Atheists. If a respected world leader stood up and gave the same speech as the Pope did in the UK only replacing “Atheists” with “Catholics” they would be outraged and demand apologies, retractions, and knee bending incessantly after from the Vatican.

167 sattv4u2  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:15:38pm

re: #163 garhighway

What is to review?
The policy is so obviously wrong.
Enough with Pentagon rope-a-dope. Repeal it.

Ask the DoD. They’re the ones conducting it!

168 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:15:47pm

re: #152 sattv4u2
That is great! We have a saying that the missionaries teach. The Holy Spirit converts. If we could all live up to that better I think our church would enjoy a more universally good image like you have of your friends sons.

My son just returned from the Philippines. It seems like just yesterday we were putting him on the airplane to leave. We are now adjusting to having an additional adult child in the home until we get him enrolled in school or the armed forces.

169 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:16:19pm

re: #155 sattv4u2

And now, for the REST of the story
Republican senators argued that passing repeal now would undermine the Defense Department’s review of the policy, which won’t be completed until Decembe
The language in the bill provides that DADT wouldn’t be repealed until 60 days after the review is complete

looks as if they just want to wait till the review is complete, as it should be imho

Um… that’s bullshit, just so you know. I mean, sure, that’s what they are saying, but if you believe it, I have several islands to sell you. There is no “review” needed to decide if people having to lie about sexual orientation helps any aspect of our military readiness. It doesn’t. It’s a red herring. In other words, it’s bullshit.

170 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:16:22pm

re: #164 sattv4u2

And when the results come in, no matter what they say, the R’s will still be against repealing DADT.

171 garhighway  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:16:59pm

re: #162 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They did it for the troops

“Some Republicans have suggested they fear troops who openly oppose gay service would be punished for speaking out.”

Bullshit

There is almost no objection to DADT with which you can’t take out “gay” and substitute “black” and not have a perfect replica of the arguments about the racial integration of the armed forces. Unit cohesion, good order, etc… All the same stuff.

172 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:17:19pm

re: #169 Fozzie Bear

re: #170 Varek Raith

yep they’re just using the review as an excuse.

173 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:17:21pm

re: #164 sattv4u2

I could give a rats ass less if someone is gay and wants to serve
More power to them (and a HUGE salute)

That stated, looks as if the DoD is still in the midst of the review and McCain (et al) just want to wait for the results

Do you really believe that line? Really?

174 sattv4u2  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:17:21pm

re: #168 DaddyG

That is great! We have a saying that the missionaries teach. The Holy Spirit converts. If we could all live up to that better I think our church would enjoy a more universally good image like you have of your friends sons.

My son just returned from the Philippines. It seems like just yesterday we were putting him on the airplane to leave. We are now adjusting to having an additional adult child in the home until we get him enrolled in school or the armed forces.

My friends have told me about the AMAZING opportunity BYU is. Extremely low tuition,, a great rep for their education programs

175 prairiefire  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:17:24pm

Jiminy, the Dow is up to 10800.

176 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:17:28pm

re: #170 Varek Raith

And when the results come in, no matter what they say, the R’s will still be against repealing DADT.

Just needed to be said again.

177 garhighway  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:17:39pm

re: #167 sattv4u2

Ask the DoD. They’re the ones conducting it!

Pentagon rope-a-dope. Delay, defer, deny.

178 sattv4u2  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:17:57pm

re: #173 Fozzie Bear

Do you really believe that line? Really?

Which line, that I don’t give a rats ass if someone is gay and wants to serve!?!?

179 sattv4u2  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:18:17pm

re: #177 garhighway

Pentagon rope-a-dope. Delay, defer, deny.

Then take it up with the CiC!

180 Liberal Classic  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:18:46pm

The Declaration of Independence is a powerful argument against tyranny, but Jeffrey H. Anderson should know that it is not the law of the land.

181 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:19:25pm

re: #175 prairiefire

Jiminy, the Dow is up to 10800.

As if to prove for all time that the fluctuations of the stock market don’t and never did have a fucking thing to do with the actual health of the economy.

182 CuriousLurker  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:19:35pm

re: #103 engineer dog

galllup “would you vote for a” question:

catholic 95%
black 94%
jewish 92%
woman 88%
hispanic 87%
mormon 72%
married 3 times 67%
72 years old 57%
homosexual 55%
atheist 45%
muslim 0.0001%

183 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:19:43pm

re: #166 Thanos

No doubt that we are indeed an extremely small minority in the US, ergo easy target. This is why the Pope is trying to deflect heat by targeting Atheists. If a respected world leader stood up and gave the same speech as the Pope did in the UK only replacing “Atheists” with “Catholics” they would be outraged and demand apologies, retractions, and knee bending incessantly after from the Vatican.

You guys need to form a church and get a Pope or President or something. /

184 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:19:47pm

I’m sure Rush’s answer to this will be to swing further Right.

Christine O’Donnell down 15 points in new poll

A new FoxNews poll, conducted Sept. 18 and released Tuesday, shows Democratic Senate nominee Chris Coons leadng Republican Christine O’Donnell by 15 points, 54 percent to 39 percent. Sixty percent of those surveyed said O’Donnell is not qualified to be a U.S. senator, while 59 percent said Coons is qualified.

Likely voters would have backed Rep. Mike Castle, the moderate Republican who lost to O’Donnell, over Coons by a double-digit margin, 48 percent to 33 percent.

But the poll’s other questions also reveal an antipathy to the “tea party” among the state’s electorate.

More of the 1,000 likely voters surveyed — 46 percent — disapprove of the job President Barack Obama is doing than the 45 percent who approve. But that’s not translating into support for the tea party wing of the GOP: 40 percent of those surveyed strongly oppose the tea party, and just 21 percent strongly support it.

185 sattv4u2  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:20:14pm

re: #168 DaddyG


We are now adjusting to having an additional adult child in the home until we get him enrolled in school
Is your son looking at BYU as a choice??

186 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:20:29pm

re: #178 sattv4u2

Which line, that I don’t give a rats ass if someone is gay and wants to serve!?!?

No, the line that McCain is just “waiting for results”. They are stalling until the senate is in more conservative hands, and feeding you bullshit in the meantime.

187 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:20:34pm

DoD rule #131; if you ignore the issue, it might just go away

188 sattv4u2  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:21:52pm

re: #186 Fozzie Bear

No, the line that McCain is just “waiting for results”. They are stalling until the senate is in more conservative hands, and feeding you bullshit in the meantime.

So the DoD is in the back pocket of the RNC!

wow ,, I did not know that!

189 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:22:07pm

re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It goes to show that the Far Right can count on a solid 30% of the vote no matter what kind of freaking lonney they put up, as long as said candidate is frothingly ideological and has a high media profile.

It is just a matter of getting the remaining 21% to put them in a majority that is causing trouble right now.

190 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:22:12pm

re: #183 DaddyG

You guys need to form a church and get a Pope or President or something. /

Fear of death unites people. A conviction that there isn’t anything magical in the universe really doesn’t compel people to organize, sadly. It’s like trying to herd cats.

191 What, me worry?  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:22:16pm

re: #150 Dreggas

*sigh*

DADT Repeal blocked in Senate.

Wow that’s so insane.

Has everyone seen Lady Gaga’s impassioned speech on youtube about it?

192 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:22:31pm

re: #174 sattv4u2

My friends have told me about the AMAZING opportunity BYU is. Extremely low tuition,, a great rep for their education programs


I’m impressed. BYU is about as difficult to get into as Yale. It is a great school. I enjoyed being a Gradass there but I doubt I could have gained admission as an undergraduate.

193 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:22:40pm

re: #171 garhighway

There is almost no objection to DADT with which you can’t take out “gay” and substitute “black” and not have a perfect replica of the arguments about the racial integration of the armed forces. Unit cohesion, good order, etc… All the same stuff.

I confirmed this against Snopes. When I pulled my first stints in the Pentagon, I mentioned to my team that there were an awful lot of latrines in each ring. The chief told me: “The building was planned for a segregated War Department”.

194 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:23:40pm

re: #188 sattv4u2

So the DoD is in the back pocket of the RNC!

wow ,, I did not know that!

The senate is in the complete control of any individual senator who doesn’t wish to see legislation occur. That you do know, or at least should. The senate doesn’t answer to the DoD. It’s the other way around.

195 prairiefire  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:25:26pm

re: #181 Fozzie Bear

Actual people/employment are always the lag indicator in economic recovery, unfortunately.

196 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:25:26pm

re: #181 Fozzie Bear

As if to prove for all time that the fluctuations of the stock market don’t and never did have a fucking thing to do with the actual health of the economy.

I look upon stock trading as some form of mysticicm. I do wonder if the increase in 401k and other direct deposit retirement funds have given traders a constant steady stream of capital to play with that has nothing to do with any actual value in terms of industry or services.

A short lesson on the price of tulip bulbs in old Holland was enough to scare me straight about speculative markets. Its not like I have any retirement left after my layoff in 2001 and the subsequent market disaster.

197 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:26:43pm

re: #195 prairiefire

Actual people/employment are always the lag indicator in economic recovery, unfortunately.

I would assert that actual people/employment aren’t an “indicator”, they ARE the economy. The rest of just fucking around with numbers.

198 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:27:11pm

PIMF …the rest *IS* just …

199 Liberal Classic  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:27:22pm

re: #182 CuriousLurker

galllup “would you vote for a” question:

catholic 95%
black 94%
jewish 92%
woman 88%
hispanic 87%
mormon 72%
married 3 times 67%
72 years old 57%
homosexual 55%
atheist 45%
muslim 0.0001%

Actually, in this Pew Research Center poll about American attitudes about Mormons (regarding Mitt Romney’s candidacy), it came out that atheists are actually less popular than Muslims.

Image: 648-3.gif

200 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:27:50pm

re: #196 DaddyG

I look upon stock trading as some form of mysticicm. I do wonder if the increase in 401k and other direct deposit retirement funds have given traders a constant steady stream of capital to play with that has nothing to do with any actual value in terms of industry or services.

A short lesson on the price of tulip bulbs in old Holland was enough to scare me straight about speculative markets. Its not like I have any retirement left after my layoff in 2001 and the subsequent market disaster.

What? $20K for a tulip bulb is too much?

201 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:28:36pm

re: #182 CuriousLurker

muslim 0.0001%

That can’t be right. 52.9% of the voting populace voted for Obama.

///

202 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:29:11pm

re: #190 Fozzie Bear

Fear of death unites people. A conviction that there isn’t anything magical in the universe really doesn’t compel people to organize, sadly. It’s like trying to herd cats.


I kid I tease. IMO opinion one of the worst things about organized religion is the tendency for people to seek power and positions. You may be better off as a loosly affiliated group of people based on common belief.

I love the volunteer nature of the LDS Church but there are times when working with all volunteers can be maddening. I have a theory that God organizes us in religions not because he needs anything from us but because there are lessons to be learned from having to work with other mortals.

203 Liberal Classic  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:29:31pm

re: #201 oaktree

That can’t be right. 52.9% of the voting populace voted for Obama.

///

Why do think they suppressed his birth certificate?

204 CuriousLurker  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:30:03pm

re: #199 Liberal Classic

Actually, in this Pew Research Center poll about American attitudes about Mormons (regarding Mitt Romney’s candidacy), it came out that atheists are actually less popular than Muslims.

Image: 648-3.gif

Wow. Thanks for the link.

205 prairiefire  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:30:10pm

re: #196 DaddyG

I love the tulip bulb story. It is a template that can be applied over and over again.

206 prairiefire  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:30:29pm

re: #197 Fozzie Bear

I would assert that actual people/employment aren’t an “indicator”, they ARE the economy. The rest of just fucking around with numbers.

True dat, bra.

207 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:30:58pm

re: #205 prairiefire

I love the tulip bulb story. It is a template that can be applied over and over again.

At least you can grow a tulip bulb. I never understood the baseball card thing at all…

208 CuriousLurker  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:31:46pm

re: #201 oaktree

That can’t be right. 52.9% of the voting populace voted for Obama.

///

LOL, true that!

209 prairiefire  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:32:04pm

re: #207 oaktree

At least you can grow a tulip bulb. I never understood the baseball card thing at all…

Beanie Babies!

210 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:32:31pm

re: #207 oaktree

At least you can grow a tulip bulb. I never understood the baseball card thing at all…

Diamonds are another false economy that could come crashing down in a heartbeat. The DeBeers family has done a good job of squishing their competition and keeping the lid on diamonds becoming a commodity.

211 Varek Raith  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:32:33pm

re: #209 prairiefire

Beanie Babies!

What are those, some kind of fad???
/

212 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:33:26pm

I love my office at times. A conversation just overheard.

“Why don’t you use Instant Messenger more often?”

“Because Fuck You, thats why.”

213 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:33:31pm

re: #199 Liberal Classic

Actually, in this Pew Research Center poll about American attitudes about Mormons (regarding Mitt Romney’s candidacy), it came out that atheists are actually less popular than Muslims.

Image: 648-3.gif

Nothing sells apple pie and NASCAR tickets like a good old fashioned loathing of all of us godless types.

214 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:34:17pm

re: #213 Fozzie Bear

Nothing sells apple pie and NASCAR tickets like a good old fashioned loathing of all of us godless types.


To be fair I don’t have to fear divine retribution from slamming an Atheist. /

215 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:34:23pm

re: #212 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I love my office at times. A conversation just overheard.

“Why don’t you use Instant Messenger more often?”

“Because Fuck You, thats why.”

That’s actually an excellent reason. I love a good argument distilled down to it’s bare essence.

216 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:35:11pm

re: #205 prairiefire

I love the tulip bulb story. It is a template that can be applied over and over again.


Check out “Tulipmania” by Anne Goldgar.

She does a wonderfuly job of presenting how tulip bulbs were trading for four times the value of a Rembrandt painting.

But it also mentions that most trades (banking, stocks, spice merchants, craftsmen, etc.) at the time were exclusive guilds which excluded the public. Tulip trading was one of the few that was openly accessible and thus attracted a great deal of interest and capital.

217 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:35:22pm

re: #214 DaddyG

To be fair I don’t have to fear divine retribution from slamming an Atheist. /

Nope. Just feline retribution if you forget to feed the cat in a timely manner.

218 Wayne A. Schneider  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:44:15pm

When you can prove to me that God exists, I’ll let him write my laws for me. Until then, keep your religious beliefs out of my Constitutional ones.

219 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:51:06pm

re: #110 Gus 802

Yeah. Then you have half the Tea Party people idolizing Ayn Rand, Geert Wilders and Christopher Hitchens (on the Iraq War). But Wilders is the point man for anti-Islam rhetoric and he’s a big old atheist.

And let’s not leave out Pat Condell.
//

220 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:56:59pm

re: #212 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I love my office at times. A conversation just overheard.

“Why don’t you use Instant Messenger more often?”

“Because Fuck You, thats why.”


Isn’t reference to a sexual act called the “Appeal to Fellatio fallacy”?

221 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 12:58:38pm

re: #218 Wayne A. Schneider

When you can prove to me that God exists, I’ll let him write my laws for me. Until then, keep your religious beliefs out of my Constitutional ones.


You will never separate community standards from law. What I hope for is what the framers of the constitution intended. Space for all faiths and philosophies to be accommodated while preventing any one of them from being imposed.

222 dragonfire1981  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 1:02:50pm

I’ve often wondered, is there a such thing as a religious left?

223 Kragar  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 1:09:24pm

re: #220 DaddyG

Isn’t reference to a sexual act called the “Appeal to Fellatio fallacy”?

Fellatio has always appealed to me.

224 webevintage  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 1:17:00pm

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

P.S. Avulsion fracture… nasty little thing… it’s when the tendon pull/shifts so far and violently that it takes a piece of bone with it… her doc says it’s a nasty break which probably will need surgery.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

ouch.
and ugh.
Hope the get well time is not too long and her new job is understanding.

My son had his first big injury in years just a month or so into his first job, luckily they let him put in for a leave of absence and took him back after a couple of months.

225 Game of Life  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 1:31:14pm

Bravo. Well written. But rupugs will shout and whine about everything the President does.

226 HappyWarrior  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 1:32:15pm

I don’t understand. I thought Obama was a Muslim, too beholded to Rev Wright, and now you’re upset because he didn’t mention creator. Seriously, liberty is the right to believe or not to believe in a creator if you so choose fit. I happily wear a medallion of St. Patrick around my neck but if someone doesn’t want to believe in God, that’s their right. Typical right wing whiny bullshit.

227 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 1:43:06pm

re: #214 DaddyG

To be fair I don’t have to fear divine retribution from slamming an Atheist. /

IngisKhan that was sarcasm. I would never slam an Atheist for being an Atheist. Even as a religious man I believe that all mankind is worthy of respect regardless of their belief system.

Sorry if my attempt at humor offended you.

228 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 1:43:44pm

re: #223 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fellatio has always appealed to me.

Im a big fan of Italian opera too! /

229 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 1:48:39pm

re: #222 dragonfire1981

I’ve often wondered, is there a such thing as a religious left?


I think so but they are not as monolithic as the religious right which tends to be mostly Evangelical, Non-denominational or Baptist Christian.

There is a more diverse group on the left that mixes their belief system with how they think we should be governed. That’s fine with me as long as they don’t cross the line and insist that they are the only belief systems that should govern us.

I long for the good ‘ol days that never were when community standards were a mix of beliefs and philosophies that sought to have a voice in the wise governing of a free people. Not the current system which has me choosing between which flavor of big brother I want.

Right now - as a conservative - I have to say the socons are really pushing hard in the wrong direction and I don’t see for example the Earth Liberation Front as a leading force in the environmental movement with national candidates waving their banner.

230 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 1:51:13pm

re: #229 DaddyG

I long for the good old days when people prayed in private, and it was considered extremely rude to push your religious beliefs on other people.

Evangelism, of every type, is evil. It inevitably leads to sectarian strife.

231 prairiefire  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 1:55:22pm

re: #222 dragonfire1981

I’ve often wondered, is there a such thing as a religious left?

I’m religious left. There are more of us that are Episcopalian, or Presbyterian, as far as I know.

232 DaddyG  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 2:12:58pm

re: #230 Fozzie Bear

I long for the good old days when people prayed in private, and it was considered extremely rude to push your religious beliefs on other people.

Evangelism, of every type, is evil. It inevitably leads to sectarian strife.

There is a fine line between sharing and pushing. It is sometimes a difficult one to walk. I hear you though. The idea that the American political system or American culture should be used to promote a particular religion or even social philosophy is in direct opposition of the constitution and the framers intent.

I wonder how many of the socons have stopped to consider that the same tactics they use to promote their beliefs can be used to ban them from the public discourse if they fall out of favor with the community?

As a religious monority I’ve certainly thought of it.

233 Obdicut  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 2:16:02pm

re: #232 DaddyG

There is a fine line between sharing and pushing. It is sometimes a difficult one to walk.

At this time in American politics, we are very, very far on one side of that line.

For me, Prop 8 was a watershed moment. I still have great respect and appreciation for what faith does for some of my religious friends. But organized religions are, I believe, de facto corrupted, de facto political organizations that will never actually respect the barrier between church and state. We will need to be ever-vigilant.

The Mormon and Catholic out-of-state support for Prop 8 was shocking in its invasiveness, intrusiveness, and unfairness.

234 pharmmajor  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 3:10:48pm

Charles

This insistence that human rights can only be granted by God is one of the fronts in the religious right’s constant battle to delegitimize the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment

Yet another reason to hate the religious right… that like what, 35,000 reasons to hate them now?

235 brownbagj  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 3:25:12pm

I thought Creator was used in the document to mean that we are all “created” either by God, nature, the big bang, accident etc, and by this being so, that no man could take away our rights.

If our rights come from “man” alone, then “man” alone can take them away.

I thought the use of “Creator” was actually a pretty clever way of ensuring that no religion or person could infringe on our basic rights as human.

I am a Christian and never thought of “creator” as a Christian term but an all inclusive one. Again, to make sure that all understood that humans have rights because we are human - and that no man can take those rights away.

236 Basho  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 3:43:39pm
Does President Obama Think Our Rights Come from Our Creator?

Our rights come from the creators of the nation: The men who built and maintain it. They don’t come from some imaginary ghost in space, however.

237 Yashmak  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 4:06:32pm
This insistence that human rights can only be granted by God is one of the fronts in the religious right’s constant battle to delegitimize the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment; and that’s why they’re beating the outrage drum so hard over this.

Another is that morality can only come from a relationship with God.

That one really gets me riled up, because it’s a slap to anyone, agnostic, atheist, or even (in many cases) of a different religion who lives an ethical, moral life.

238 ClaudeMonet  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 7:22:00pm

re: #71 mikhailtheplumber

Dear wingnuts:

Either president Obama is a secret Muslim, or he is an atheist who does not believe in a creator.

He cannot be both.

Get your paranoia and filthy lies in order.

Best Regards,
Mik

Exactly. It’s as bad as the lefties who simultaneously claimed that GWB was a monkey/Cheney’s dummy/socon robot AND that he was an evil genius Machiavellian plotter.

Worse though in how much of this shit is going on. Apparently coherence is another lost cause, along with reasoning, critical thinking, scientific study, etc.

239 ClaudeMonet  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 7:28:51pm

re: #107 Walter L. Newton

I saw your rant the other day… that’s why I asked. Ok… I keep it at that… things are alright here. Step daughter was walking the two big dogs yesterday, got twisted up in them, fell, tore a ACL and caused a avulsion fracture… going to see the surgeon tomorrow… probably gonna take a while to fix and heal… and she just started a job about a month ago… her first real job… bummer.

Yow. Not much you can do for her except give her more hugs (if she likes that) and tell her to follow all medical orders. Tell her a lot of lizards are wishing her well, and take a picture of her expression (“Dad, WTF are ‘lizards’?).

240 William  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 7:31:25pm

re: #41 Gus 802

Remarks by the President at the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute’s 33rd Annual Awards Gala

Excerpt:

“Long before America was even an idea, this land of plenty was home to many peoples. To British and French, to Dutch and Spanish, to Mexican — (applause) — to countless Indian tribes. We all shared the same land.”


Huh? Dishonest pandering — America is older than Mexico.

241 lostlakehiker  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 8:33:31pm

re: #31 marjoriemoon

Obama is doing a great job. Is it some kind of sin to say that?

No. Far from it. Opinions can legitimately differ on how good a job he’s doing. Even from where I sit, there have been worse presidents, with room to spare. I give him a C+. But if you rate him an A, go for it.

The rating history gives him will depend on things yet to come. If the health care bill results in better care for most, or approximately the same overall level but at reduced cost, then us nay-sayers will have been confounded and he’ll get a better ranking.

If Iran both gets nukes and uses them, hitting Israel and the U.S., then us optimists will have been confounded and he’ll get downdinged for having ignored dire warnings from his intelligence arms, warnings we here in blogosphere haven’t heard about. Most likely because they haven’t been issued and Iran has no such plans, but how would we know?

If the various bailouts have done the trick and the economy finally recovers, he’ll get a better ranking. If the U.S. sinks into renewed recession as the tax hikes now scheduled to go into effect with 2011 do the harm some economists predict [others expect no harm], his ranking will sink.

I’ve got my guesses as to how all this will play out. You’ve got yours. Neither of us knows the future. For your sake and mine, I hope I’m wrong.

I’m not about to go postal on you, or anybody in blogosphere, just because your crystal ball says different from mine. They’re both cloudy as can be.

242 mich-again  Tue, Sep 21, 2010 8:59:42pm

I think the key point for the “by their creator” phrase is to make the distinction that rights aren’t “granted” to you by the Government. They are above the Government’s jurisdiction. So I’m not all that surprised by the esoterically freudian omission of the word creator, but not because of religion, but because its not feasible that anything might be above the Government’s jurisdiction.

243 William of Orange  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:12:01am

|Hahaha! That was funny. Onama getting a lecture on selective editing. When it comes to the declaration they DO see it and when Hannity… er… well… just talks they don’t.


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