What Right Wing Extremists?

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Anyone think stories like this might have something to do with the Department of Homeland Security being concerned about right wing extremism? Report: ‘Dirty bomb’ parts found in slain man’s home.

BELFAST, Maine — James G. Cummings, who police say was shot to death by his wife two months ago, allegedly had a cache of radioactive materials in his home suitable for building a “dirty bomb.”

According to an FBI field intelligence report from the Washington Regional Threat and Analysis Center posted online by WikiLeaks, an organization that posts leaked documents, an investigation into the case revealed that radioactive materials were removed from Cummings’ home after his shooting death on Dec. 9.

The report posted on the WikiLeaks Web site states that “On 9 December 2008, radiological dispersal device components and literature, and radioactive materials, were discovered at the Maine residence of an identified deceased [person] James Cummings.”

The section referring to Cummings can be read here.

It says that four 1-gallon containers of 35 percent hydrogen peroxide, uranium, thorium, lithium metal, thermite, aluminum powder, beryllium, boron, black iron oxide and magnesium ribbon were found in the home.

Also found was literature on how to build “dirty bombs” and information about cesium-137, strontium-90 and cobalt-60, radioactive materials. The FBI report also stated there was evidence linking James Cummings to white supremacist groups. This would seem to confirm observations by local tradesmen who worked at the Cummings home that he was an ardent admirer of Adolf Hitler and had a collection of Nazi memorabilia around the house, including a prominently displayed flag with swastika. Cummings claimed to have pieces of Hitler’s personal silverware and place settings, painter Mike Robbins said a few days after the shooting.

An application for membership in the National Socialist Movement filled out by Cummings also was found in the residence, according to the report. Cummings’ wife, Amber B. Cummings, 31, told investigators that her husband spoke of “dirty bombs,” according to the report, and mixed chemicals in her kitchen sink. She allegedly told police that Cummings subjected her to years of mental, physical and sexual abuse. She also said that Cummings was “very upset” when Barack Obama was elected president.

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699 comments
1 zombie  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:41:56pm

I hate Maine Nazis.

2 NYCHardhat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:43:57pm

Craziness knows no bounds.

3 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:43:58pm
An application for membership in the National Socialist Movement filled out by Cummings also was found in the residence


Lovely.

4 monkeytime  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:44:06pm

He was a hard right socialist? He really was a nut job.

5 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:44:29pm
She allegedly told police that Cummings subjected her to years of mental, physical and sexual abuse.

Wow- this was a really nasty man. I can’t say I’m sorry he’s dead.

6 zombie  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:44:42pm
The FBI report also stated there was evidence linking James Cummings to white supremacist groups. This would seem to confirm observations by local tradesmen who worked at the Cummings home that he was an ardent admirer of Adolf Hitler and had a collection of Nazi memorabilia around the house, including a prominently displayed flag with swastika. Cummings claimed to have pieces of Hitler’s personal silverware and place settings, painter Mike Robbins said a few days after the shooting.

An application for membership in the National Socialist Movement filled out by Cummings also was found in the residence, according to the report. Cummings’ wife, Amber B. Cummings, 31, told investigators that her husband spoke of “dirty bombs,” according to the report, and mixed chemicals in her kitchen sink. She allegedly told police that Cummings subjected her to years of mental, physical and sexual abuse. She also said that Cummings was “very upset” when Barack Obama was elected president.

Though, top be frank, this guy seems like a flat-out psychopath, who used crazed political justifications for his violent urges

7 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:44:52pm

re: #4 monkeytime

He was a hard right socialist? He really was a nut job.

“National Socialists” are not socialists in the Marxist sense. The operative word is “National,” as in “nationalism.”

8 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:46:13pm

This post brought up the “anger management” ad.

9 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:46:26pm

I am trying to find something to say about this man that won’t get me banned. I’ll just upding Sharmuta instead.

10 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:46:27pm

re: #6 zombie

Though, top be frank, this guy seems like a flat-out psychopath, who used crazed political justifications for his violent urges

That’s what fascists do.

11 monkeytime  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:46:34pm

re: #7 Charles

“National Socialists” are not socialists in the Marxist sense.

Oh thanks for clearing that up. I do not see how anyone can not see that there are, and have been, far right nut jobs for a long time.

12 FrogMarch  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:46:38pm
he was an ardent admirer of Adolf Hitler….


An application for membership in the National Socialist Movement filled out by Cummings also was found in the residence…


She allegedly told police that Cummings subjected her to years of mental, physical and sexual abuse. She also said that Cummings was “very upset” when Barack Obama was elected president.
13 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:47:09pm

re: #7 Charles

“National Socialists” are not socialists in the Marxist sense.

National Socialist = Right Authoritarian.
Marxist / Leninist Socialist = Left Authoritarian.

Left and Right is too simplistic.

14 nwclassic  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:47:11pm

I for one am glad that Homeland Security is watching all potential sources of terrorism. And I’m also glad that Charles is grounded enough to know what’s important and what’s not! Thank You Charles!

15 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:47:14pm

re: #9 EmmmieG

I am trying to find something to say about this man that won’t get me banned. I’ll just upding Sharmuta instead.

Yeah- I’m not going to waste any time defending nazi rapists.

16 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:47:24pm

re: #11 monkeytime

Oh thanks for clearing that up. I do not see how anyone can not see that there are, and have been, far right nut jobs for a long time.

Think white sheet hoods.

17 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:47:39pm

Mental pathologies can afflict righties as well as lefties. It’s a shame that the DHS memo is firing up the extreme right, again enabling the MSM to exhibit extreme righties and again portray them as the face of conservatism.

18 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:47:43pm

re: #4 monkeytime

He was a hard right socialist? He really was a nut job.

National socialism. Despite what Jonah Goldberg tells you it is not a liberal left wing philosophy.

19 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:47:49pm

#8, we’ve also got “Song of the South” in the sidebar. Eeek

20 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:48:07pm

re: #3 Killgore Trout

Wait - shouldn’t this fall under “Left Wing Socialist Lunatics are Terrorist Risks” which is due out by the DHS next week?

21 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:48:17pm

re: #11 monkeytime

Oh thanks for clearing that up. I do not see how anyone can not see that there are, and have been, far right nut jobs for a long time.

Political compass is a better tool than left v. right.

22 Athens Runaway  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:48:32pm

The important question is: did he plan on going to any Tea Parties?

23 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:48:35pm

re: #20 ArmyWife

Charles answered. Nevermind.

24 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:49:13pm

I think his wife may have saved some lives, not least of all her own.

25 Athens Runaway  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:49:23pm

re: #22 Athens Runaway

The important question is: did he plan on going to any Tea Parties?

Stupid thing stripped my [/i keed i keed] tags :(

26 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:49:35pm

He was planning a man made disaster, no doubt.

Criminals, insurrectionists, terrorists all belong locked up.
Regardless of political affiliation.

27 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:50:00pm

This story, by the way, is more than two months old. It was ignored by the national media when it came out.

28 FrogMarch  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:50:03pm
29 RememberSekhmet?  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:50:12pm

re: #17 Bacchus’s daddy

Mental pathologies can afflict righties as well as lefties. It’s a shame that the DHS memo is firing up the extreme right, again enabling the MSM to exhibit extreme righties and again portray them as the face of conservatism.

Why do you think the memo was worded the way it was?

30 NYCHardhat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:51:39pm

re: #21 jcm

Political compass is a better tool than left v. right.

I guess I’m lower right.

31 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:51:41pm

There’s no mention of whether the shooting was determined to be justified. I hope Amber, this lunatics wife gets the help and assistance she must need after being with this guy.

32 Timbre  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:51:53pm

I picture him “sieg heiling” himself in the bedroom mirror every morning…with a comb under his nose….

33 Dave the.....  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:52:12pm

Although I am much more conservative than Charles, I appreciate these posts on right wing wackos.

Charles, I as these things come up, I wouldn’t mind seeing threads on Global Warming legislation. Barry is going to sign legislation that allows those “harmed” by “global warming” to sue the gov’t and private business. This is right up there with creationist legislation.

34 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:52:20pm

This type of crazy isn’t solely vested within the right wing - I hope we don’t lose site of that.

35 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:52:50pm

re: #30 NYCHardhat

I guess I’m lower right.

Yep, me too.

36 captdiggs  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:53:07pm

The FBI has been on this for over 50 years.
There is little organization or funds for any coordinated threat to the US. Single nuts will always be out there.
The real threats come from the well organized and funded islamists…only DHS has banned that line of thought.
I still think the entire purpose of the DHS report was to placate the likes of CAIR.

37 Idle Drifter  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:53:12pm

I wonder how he was storing his lithium safely. Any water or moisture gets on it and it explodes.

38 Jimash  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:53:43pm

Maybe they should hire his wife for DHS since she took him down and they were cluelesss til after the murder.

39 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:54:09pm
It says that four 1-gallon containers of 35 percent hydrogen peroxide, uranium, thorium, lithium metal, thermite, aluminum powder, beryllium, boron, black iron oxide and magnesium ribbon were found in the home.

It would be interesting to find out how he acquired uranium. I don’t really want islamofascists or nazis getting their hands on this stuff.

40 monkeytime  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:54:10pm

I’ll just never get why anyone would want someone to have total control over them verses freedom. It’s so S & M esk.

41 okiej  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:54:18pm

Political Compass test.

[Link: www.politicalcompass.org…]

Not an endorsement, just thought it could be an interesting experiment.

42 HelloDare  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:54:36pm

re: #37 Idle Drifter

I wonder how he was storing his lithium safely. Any water or moisture gets on it and it explodes.

It was in the form of medication.

43 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:54:44pm

re: #30 NYCHardhat

I guess I’m lower right.

A Test for the Political Compass for what it’s worth. Poorly worded questions IMHO. However it is more useful than a linear left to right.

44 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:55:14pm

re: #43 jcm

A Test for the Political Compass for what it’s worth. Poorly worded questions IMHO. However it is more useful than a linear left to right.

Link do’h…….

45 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:55:27pm

re: #33 Dave the…..

Although I am much more conservative than Charles, I appreciate these posts on right wing wackos.

Charles, I as these things come up, I wouldn’t mind seeing threads on Global Warming legislation. Barry is going to sign legislation that allows those “harmed” by “global warming” to sue the gov’t and private business. This is right up there with creationist legislation.

Does that mean that next winter when my car doesn’t start because of the current “pause” in global warming (which is still ‘part’ of the warming we are told) I can sue the federal government for the cost of a jump/new battery?

46 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:55:36pm

re: #33 Dave the…..

Although I am much more conservative than Charles, I appreciate these posts on right wing wackos.

Charles, I as these things come up, I wouldn’t mind seeing threads on Global Warming legislation. Barry is going to sign legislation that allows those “harmed” by “global warming” to sue the gov’t and private business. This is right up there with creationist legislation.

He’s talking about this from the Washington Times.

47 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:55:37pm

re: #41 okiej

re: #44 jcm

LOL! GMTA.

48 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:55:51pm

One of the talking points spread by the anti-DHS report crowd, by the way, is that the report was deliberately released to affect the tea party demonstrations.

And I realized that if that IS true, it’s entirely possible that the report was intended to give law enforcement a heads-up on potential threats — threats that might target the tea party demonstrations.

Think about it. The report wasn’t intended for the public, it was for law enforcement agencies, who would be covering the demonstrations. Is it really much of a stretch to consider that right wing terrorist groups like Christian Identity might target tea parties?

49 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:57:04pm

re: #48 Charles

Is it really much of a stretch to consider that right wing terrorist groups like Christian Identity might target tea parties?

Reichstag Fire.

50 Bubbaman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:57:25pm

There’s no question that this guy was whacked both literally and figuratively. He was not found to be in possession of any significantly dangerous radioactive materials. The information suggests that he was interested in them with intent to produce a “dirty bomb”, but the article implies that he had a dangerous “cache of radioactive materials”.

Of the materials listed, only Thorium would fit that bill. It is weakly radioactive and emits alpha rays which aren’t harmful unless ingested or inhaled. Typically, Thorium is used in mantles of portable gas lanterns (remember using them as a source of alpha rays in science class?) or to produce certain alloys. A greater risk with Thorium is its flammability, especially when combined with the Lithium and Aluminum powder. I highly doubt that he had any significant quantities of Thorium.

51 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:57:26pm

The Washington Times demonstrated today that their reporting cannot be trusted.

52 Idle Drifter  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:57:37pm

re: #42 HelloDare

It was in the form of medication.

Then his wife gave him lead pills.

53 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:58:13pm

re: #49 Zimriel

Reichstag Fire.

Indeed.

54 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:58:42pm

re: #51 Charles

The Washington Times demonstrated today that their reporting cannot be trusted.

Not saying I agree with him. Just pointing out his source. I haven’t looked into the legislation in question. It’s presumably Kabuki, like Rangel’s annual Reparations Day Parade.

55 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:59:40pm

re: #37 Idle Drifter

I wonder how he was storing his lithium safely. Any water or moisture gets on it and it explodes.

So does cesium. And I’d like to know how the hell he got his hands on uranium.

56 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:59:44pm

re: #50 Bubbaman

What about the uranium?

57 Bubbaman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 5:59:54pm

My bad. I missed the uranium. Where the heck would he obtain uranium in any quantity?

58 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:00:05pm

re: #50 Bubbaman

There’s no question that this guy was whacked both literally and figuratively. He was not found to be in possession of any significantly dangerous radioactive materials. The information suggests that he was interested in them with intent to produce a “dirty bomb”, but the article implies that he had a dangerous “cache of radioactive materials”.

Of the materials listed, only Thorium would fit that bill. It is weakly radioactive and emits alpha rays which aren’t harmful unless ingested or inhaled. Typically, Thorium is used in mantles of portable gas lanterns (remember using them as a source of alpha rays in science class?) or to produce certain alloys. A greater risk with Thorium is its flammability, especially when combined with the Lithium and Aluminum powder. I highly doubt that he had any significant quantities of Thorium.

That is beside the point. If a bomb like this ever does go off, and the word gets out that it contained radioactive material, the actual threat may be insignificant, but I guarantee that it will cause panic like we’ve never seen in this country.

59 KingKenrod  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:01:21pm

re: #57 Bubbaman

My bad. I missed the uranium. Where the heck would he obtain uranium in any quantity?

Medical equipment and watches - that’s what I’ve heard.

60 loppyd  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:01:43pm

I didn’t see his party affiliation in that article.

61 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:01:48pm

re: #57 Bubbaman

My bad. I missed the uranium. Where the heck would he obtain uranium in any quantity?

That’s what I’d like to know. It’s the sort of thing I assume the FBI and DHS are investigating, and that we’ll hopefully learn more about in the future.

62 screaming_eagle  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:01:51pm

re: #58 Charles

That is beside the point. If a bomb like this ever does go off, and the word gets out that it contained radioactive material, the actual threat may be insignificant, but I guarantee that it will cause panic like we’ve never seen in this country.

The panic induced by a dirty bomb is the greatest damage.

63 Steve White  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:01:53pm

I think the DHS report had major problems. If the civil liberties office had issues, that should tell us something. But no one should doubt the essential truth: our country has some number of far-right wackos, such as the fellow in this news item, who are every bit as twisted and hateful as the far-left wackos out there.

I recall Glenn Reynolds from some years back answering a question about his own political affiliations: he said he was ‘anti-idiot’. I’m also a member of that party, but I’m also a member of the ‘anti-wacko’ party. I despise wackos either from the far-right or far-left. Nazi or communist, both are a threat to us.

And it’s recognizing that, and saying (and meaning) that, that gives the sensible people of this country power. Would that more people were sensible, anti-idiot, and anti-wacko.

64 KingKenrod  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:02:01pm

re: #59 KingKenrod

Medical equipment and watches - that’s what I’ve heard.

Oh, you said uranium. Never mind.

Maybe military rounds?

65 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:02:03pm

Poem for 4/17/09
Homeland Security Assessment
By Tarzana Joe

Stung by the alarm with which
Our last report was met
We’ve retired to our bunkers
And re-assessed the threat

We’ve examined all our “intel”
And combed through all the clues
And the following advisory
Is the work of these re-views

Our country’s under siege
And with sleepers surely swarming
These groups believe in God
And not in global warming

In fact…
Our agents have concluded
That the greatest threat to you
Is from anyone, yes anyone
Who exhales CO2

We need to keep on guard
And to shore up our defenses
Against those who mow their lawns
And hide behind white picket fences

Ignore radicals with passports
From Burma, Laos or Thailand
But be sure to keep an eye on
Anyone
Who’s ever seen
An episode
Of Gilligan’s Island

Using mild interrogation
We’ve learned from one confessor
Of some subversive strategies
Being taught by “The Professor”

These insurgents are a danger
And they work behind the scenes
Of the Army, Navy, Air Force
Coast Guard and Marines

We’ve notified the DOJ
To suggest they issue bans
On gun-owners, religionists
And Pittsburgh Steeler fans

It’s the government’s concern
In fact, it is our duty
To protect ourselves from those who think
Life has both worth and beauty


Though the fact that we lacked data
Put some pundits in a funk
Everything in this review
Is a guaranteed slam-dunk.

/a lighter view………..

66 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:02:24pm

re: #41 okiej

Political Compass test.

[Link: www.politicalcompass.org…]

Not an endorsement, just thought it could be an interesting experiment.

Sort of looks like the expanded version of the f-scale, developed in the 50’s to determine authoritarianism.

F-Scale

67 Buster Bunny  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:02:49pm

re: #57 Bubbaman

My bad. I missed the uranium. Where the heck would he obtain uranium in any quantity?

Walmart.

They have a 50% off in their radioactive waste isle this week. I’d suggest heading in before the terrorists get there first.

68 Dave the.....  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:02:57pm

National Review has covered the so called Global Warming lawsuit laws. NR an be dupped, but they are generally very credible.

69 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:03:05pm

re: #58 Charles

That is beside the point. If a bomb like this ever does go off, and the word gets out that it contained radioactive material, the actual threat may be insignificant, but I guarantee that it will cause panic like we’ve never seen in this country.

I believe this is one of the causes for the major upswing in weapon sales. It’s not solely that folks think Obama’s going to limit future sales, it’s that they think they may be needed.

70 HelloDare  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:03:18pm

re: #46 Zimriel

He’s talking about this from the Washington Times.

How can they pass a law allowing people who “expect to suffer” to sue? Waxman has overstepped. How do you put a value on something that has not happened?

Hell, I’ve already suffered by seeing Henry Waxman’s face. Where do I sue?

71 Idle Drifter  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:03:32pm

re: #55 Fat Jolly Penguin

So does cesium. And I’d like to know how the hell he got his hands on uranium.

I wonder if he got a hold of the Uranium that’s used in glass making.

72 Bubbaman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:03:35pm

re: #58 Charles

Living in D.C. and working close to the Capitol, I am very sensitive to these issues and in no way would ever underestimate the risk. What worries me the most is that there are folks out there with this mindset. Recall how the government was unable to catch the Unabomber until his family turned him in? I wonder if this guy would have been revealed had his wife not shot him?

73 Athens Runaway  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:03:57pm

re: #57 Bubbaman

My bad. I missed the uranium. Where the heck would he obtain uranium in any quantity?

Amazon.com, among other places

74 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:04:20pm

re: #65 IslandLibertarian

Excellent verse!

75 Laugh a Lot  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:04:33pm

Somehow this two-month-old story about a guy who’s clearly been a life-long whack-job doesn’t put the “Right Wing Extremists” report released by a liberal DHS just days before nationwide protests against liberal big government spending in a new and reasonable light for me. Sorry.

76 Jimash  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:04:34pm

re: #60 loppyd

I didn’t see his party affiliation in that article.

Looked like “National Socialist”.

77 loppyd  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:04:51pm

BTW Belfast, Maine is beautiful.

78 FrogMarch  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:05:11pm

I love Jonah Goldberg. He’s fabulous.

79 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:05:39pm

I notice that crazy Pamela Geller is pushing the “Obama is a sekrit Muslim” foolishness yet again.

80 KingKenrod  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:05:40pm

re: #73 Athens Runaway

Amazon.com, among other places

OMG - read the comments. Hilarious!

81 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:06:19pm

re: #72 Bubbaman

I wonder if this guy would have been revealed had his wife not shot him?

That’s a good question.

82 Buster Bunny  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:06:44pm

The guy who built a nuclear reactor in his garage a couple of years back did so buying things like smoke detectors (they have radioactive parts) and the paint they use for keeping old clocks dials intact.

It doesnt take much to create a considerable batch of noxious substances if you know where to look.

I mean .. what harm could 50 tonnes of fertiliser do?

83 Athens Runaway  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:06:49pm

re: #80 KingKenrod

OMG - read the comments. Hilarious!

That’s 90% of the hilarity of this Amazon listing. The other 10% is the fact that Amazon truly does have everything for sale.

84 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:07:37pm

Meanwhile, Michael Savage is joining with the Thomas More Law Center (who tried and failed to defend the creationists in the Dover trial) to file suit against the Department of Homeland Security for some kind of imagined slight.

Bad craziness gets worse.

85 Athens Runaway  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:07:38pm

re: #82 Buster Bunny

The guy who built a nuclear reactor in his garage a couple of years back did so buying things like smoke detectors (they have radioactive parts) and the paint they use for keeping old clocks dials intact.

It doesnt take much to create a considerable batch of noxious substances if you know where to look.

I mean .. what harm could 50 tonnes of fertiliser do?

David Hahn, the Radioactive Boy Scout

86 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:07:50pm

re: #48 Charles

I am part of the anti-DHS crowd, but I think saying this was released just for the Tea Party thing gives this inept administration WAY too much credit. They simply aren’t strategic enough for that sort of thing. I think it was released with all it’s blinding stupidity because that is the caliber of people we having running the country at the moment.

87 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:08:05pm

I think it would be likewise interesting to know if this guy was getting around on the net- like posting a stormfront or any similarly vile site.

88 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:08:08pm

Five bucks on #390

89 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:08:27pm

re: #62 screaming_eagle

The panic induced by a dirty bomb is the greatest damage.

Correct, having been trained for radiological incidents in the fire department. An initial on scene estimate would show radiological material. At that point the flag goes up and it enters that realm of response. It would be a little while before the material, quantities, and hazards are precisely quantified.

But by that time the news will be screaming RADIOLOGICAL INCIDENT, and the actual hazards will get lost in the screaming.

90 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:09:07pm

re: #88 pre-Boomer Marine brat

MWAH!

91 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:09:12pm

re: #79 Charles

I notice that crazy Pamela Geller is pushing the “Obama is a sekrit Muslim” foolishness yet again.

She came across as undereducated, over-the-hill trailer-trash on Red-Eye the other night. I knew she was over the top ….but seeing her on that show brought it all into focus.

/rabid violation of the Thumper rule

92 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:09:49pm

re: #91 pink freud

and yet she was on TV. Go figure.

93 Wm T Sherman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:10:26pm

I don’t see any dangerously radioactive materials in that list. He may have had intent, but he did not the means at the time of his death.

94 Emerald  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:10:30pm

re: #39 Sharmuta

It would be interesting to find out how he acquired uranium. I don’t really want islamofascists or nazis getting their hands on this stuff.

The PDF file indicates it’s depleted uranium in containers from an American company. The only uses I know of for depleted uranium are military; wonder if he got it from a government contractor providing ammo or armor. If so, I’m not too thrilled at the lack of inventory control.

95 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:10:47pm

re: #92 ArmyWife

and yet she was on TV. Go figure.

It’s worked for Britney for years ….

96 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:11:21pm

re: #91 pink freud

She came across as undereducated, over-the-hill trailer-trash on Red-Eye the other night. I knew she was over the top ….but seeing her on that show brought it all into focus.

/rabid violation of the Thumper rule

I am in no way defending Pamela…but that whole show is trailer trash. WTF is it? Is that humor? It’s So Crude.

97 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:11:37pm

re: #84 Charles

Thomas More, by the way, is known for instigating burnings of heretics in 16th century England.

98 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:11:47pm

re: #94 Emerald

The PDF file indicates it’s depleted uranium in containers from an American company. The only uses I know of for depleted uranium are military; wonder if he got it from a government contractor providing ammo or armor. If so, I’m not too thrilled at the lack of inventory control.

That’s troubling, to say the least.

99 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:11:48pm

re: #79 Charles

I notice that crazy Pamela Geller is pushing the “Obama is a sekrit Muslim” foolishness yet again.

That kind of outrageous-conspiracy paranoia gives all of us a bad name (aided by media portrayals of rabid right as emblematic of the right as a whole).

100 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:12:03pm

re: #90 goddessoftheclassroom

MWAH!

Whotthehell!
There she is AGAIN!
Doesn’t she have a LIFE?

/oh … btw … MWAH!

101 RadicalRon  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:12:13pm
102 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:12:15pm

re: #92 ArmyWife

and yet she was on TV. Go figure.

She was on Fox News. This is where Fox News is headed.

103 calcajun  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:13:10pm

re: #96 unrealizedviewpoint

Now some are beginning to understand why I do not watch Fox anymore save for Special Report. It’s about the most balanced panel out there.

104 Emerald  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:13:15pm

re: #50 Bubbaman

Of the materials listed, only Thorium would fit that bill. It is weakly radioactive and emits alpha rays which aren’t harmful unless ingested or inhaled.


Like after some nutcase exploded it, filling the surrounding air with thorium dust?

105 Buster Bunny  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:13:16pm

re: #73 Athens Runaway

A quote from the site … mucho hilarious ….


I’ve been looking for just the right “Can’t we all just get along” peace offering gift to give to a complaining neighbor and Uranium Ore was the perfect pick ! He was so appreciative of the gesture and told me a couple of weeks ago that he loves using it as a sweetener in his coffee every morning because of it’s unusual flavor :-) I haven’t heard a single complaint from him in days :-) Come to think of it, I haven’t seen him at all for a few days so he must be really happy ;-)

Its really funny stuff.

106 godfrey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:13:17pm

re: #97 Charles

He was beheaded in 1535 when he refused to sign the Act of Supremacy that declared King Henry VIII Supreme Head of the Church of England.

107 gruvin  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:13:54pm

I was upset when Obama was elected too. But the only dirty bomb I produced was safely flushed down the toilet.

108 jim in virginia  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:14:02pm

re: #35 jcm

Yep, me too.

Same here. I always thought I was upper middle.

109 calcajun  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:14:13pm

re: #97 Charles

Thanks—you never do get to see that part in “A Man for All Seasons”. So much for understanding and tolerance.

110 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:14:15pm

re: #84 Charles

Meanwhile, Michael Savage is joining with the Thomas More Law Center (who tried and failed to defend the creationists in the Dover trial) to file suit against the Department of Homeland Security for some kind of imagined slight.

Rule 11(b) violation.

NEXT!

111 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:14:32pm
112 Idle Drifter  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:14:41pm

re: #97 Charles

Thomas More, by the way, is known for instigating burnings of heretics in 16th century England.

Is this the same Thomas More on the Tudors?

113 Buster Bunny  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:15:08pm

re: #97 Charles

Henry 8th got a lot wrong. But in his dealings with the Church and the whole More affair, he couldnt have got it more right.

114 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:15:22pm

re: #99 Bacchus’s daddy

That kind of outrageous-conspiracy paranoia gives all of us a bad name (aided by media portrayals of rabid right as emblematic of the right as a whole).

Ssshhh! Nobody wants to hear that.

115 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:15:25pm

re: #96 unrealizedviewpoint

I am in no way defending Pamela…but that whole show is trailer trash. WTF is it? Is that humor? It’s So Crude.

Not all of it.

/that said, it’s not for everyone

116 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:15:46pm

re: #103 calcajun

Now some are beginning to understand why I do not watch Fox anymore save for Special Report. It’s about the most balanced panel out there.

I half watch O’Reilly and that’s it.

117 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:15:53pm

re: #97 Charles

Thomas More, by the way, is known for instigating burnings of heretics in 16th century England.

To be fair… he’s probably better known as the “man for all seasons”, who refused to warp canonical law to suit the insane Henry VIII.

118 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:16:00pm

re: #100 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Whotthehell!
There she is AGAIN!
Doesn’t she have a LIFE?

/oh … btw … MWAH!

Fine.

119 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:16:10pm

re: #102 Charles

I don’t watch TV. These things reinforce the correctness of my decision.

120 HoosierHoops  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:16:11pm

re: #88 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Five bucks on #390

Good evening Brat..Hope today finds you well…
There have been meltdowns all day..For all the talk of the GOP being the party of adults there sure have been a bunch of over sensitive whiney ass babies jumping off the cliff today..
The totals of deletes must be nearing a record..
some people need to grow up and chill the hell out…

121 jamgarr  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:16:28pm

Purveyor
Of
The
Ubiquitous
Statements of
Apology

122 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:16:59pm

re: #106 godfrey

He was beheaded in 1535 when he refused to sign the Act of Supremacy that declared King Henry VIII Supreme Head of the Church of England.

Right, he’s a Catholic martyr as a result. (looking it up) yeah, he’s a saint too.

I disagree with my Church on some of its selections. (Pope Pius V is another guy I’d have left out. I’d sooner pray for the intercession of Alexander VI Borgia.) I assume that More’s in Heaven, if nothing else but for that last act of heroism, but he would have endured some purgatory to atone for all the burnings he did.

123 Pupdawg  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:17:26pm

I think the rub rises when the DHS reports that they suspect or potentially target everyone or anyone from slightly right of left to right of Hitler.
Extremists on either end or middle of the spectrum should be watched by the DHS or by whom-else-ever in law enforcement and this is no great mystery. The fact that they do exist isn’t a shocker either…never has been…never will be.

124 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:17:34pm

re: #110 Occasional Reader

Rule 11(b) violation.

NEXT!

Rule 12? 11(c)? No poofters?

/

125 Bubbaman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:17:59pm

re: #82 Buster Bunny

The guy who built a nuclear reactor in his garage a couple of years back did so buying things like smoke detectors (they have radioactive parts) and the paint they use for keeping old clocks dials intact.

It doesnt take much to create a considerable batch of noxious substances if you know where to look.

I mean .. what harm could 50 tonnes of fertiliser do?

A smoke detector contains less than 1/3rd of a microgram of Amerecium and the average dose of radiation emitted is hundreds of times less than background radiation. While, it would be theoretically possible to recover quantities of Amerecium it wouldn’t be feasible.

FWIW, the uranium ore that’s available for purchase for demonstration purchases isn’t problematic either. The big concerns exist when large amounts of items such as Cobalt used in food sterilization/medical therapies go missing.

126 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:18:06pm

Thomas More didn’t only burn heretics — he tortured them.

127 Emerald  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:18:07pm

re: #111 Iron Fist

Source
I’d be interested in knowing the isotope he had, and its source, but it is unlikely to be any kind of weapons material from a government contractor.

The PDF in the link says it’s depleted uranium in containers labeled from an American company.

128 holycrusader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:18:35pm

Would this not be a case of a planted story by the NeoLibs? I’m calling BS on this one. Wikileaks is the source. Huh? Might as well be Debka. The left would do anything to tar and feather the right. I think we’ll be seeing more of this type of thing. It’s c rap!

129 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:18:42pm

re: #124 OldLineTexan

The no poofter rule trumps everything, and i mean EVERYTHING.

130 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:18:49pm
131 jamgarr  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:19:04pm

Dennis Moore only took your lupines

132 Buster Bunny  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:19:22pm

re: #117 Occasional Reader

To be fair… he’s probably better known as the “man for all seasons”, who refused to warp canonical law to suit the insane Henry VIII.

I would care to remind you that without the insane Henry 8th there would have been no aperture for dissent from the Britons. As it is .. they established their own faith and truly separated themselves from the mainland.

If it werent for ‘enry the eightth … we’d all be speaking Latin now and be heartily Roman Catholic.

133 godfrey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:19:23pm

re: #122 Zimriel

“All the burnings he did.” Yes, that St. Thomas More was a real butcher. I’m not an expert: do you have the figures for how many he burned?

134 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:19:27pm

re: #128 holycrusader

Would this not be a case of a planted story by the NeoLibs? I’m calling BS on this one. Wikileaks is the source. Huh? Might as well be Debka. The left would do anything to tar and feather the right. I think we’ll be seeing more of this type of thing. It’s c rap!

Good grief. Anyone for a moby?

135 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:19:32pm

re: #126 Charles

Waterboarding, huh?

(sorry, I couldn’t help it. I’ll be serious from now on. Maybe).

136 hazzyday  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:19:36pm

He does seem certifiable. He reads like an anarchist. Someone who would like to create a lot of anarchy. Racially motivated. I don’t really consider this type of person a GoP member. I’m starting to divide things up into violent and non violent. Big govt and small govt. non violent small govt is where I want to be.

137 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:19:55pm

re: #84 Charles

Bad craziness gets worse.

How crazy can it get?….That’s the question.

138 CommonCents  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:19:55pm

re: #7 Charles

“National Socialists” are not socialists in the Marxist sense. The operative word is “National,” as in “nationalism.”

Wrong nation.

139 calcajun  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:20:05pm

re: #97 Charles

He was Lord Chancellor—basically the AG to Henry VIII—when he persecuted Protestants—some for only passing out an English version of the New Testament.

140 calcajun  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:20:16pm

re: #112 Idle Drifter

Yep.

141 Pupdawg  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:20:41pm

re: #121 jamgarr

Purveyor
Of
The
Ubiquitous
Statements of
Apology

Pontificateur
Of
Totally
Useless
Shit!

142 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:20:41pm

re: #122 Zimriel

Right, he’s a Catholic martyr as a result. (looking it up) yeah, he’s a saint too.

I disagree with my Church on some of its selections. (Pope Pius V is another guy I’d have left out. I’d sooner pray for the intercession of Alexander VI Borgia.) I assume that More’s in Heaven, if nothing else but for that last act of heroism, but he would have endured some purgatory to atone for all the burnings he did.

I find it surpassingly ironic that a man who advocated the execution of apostates and heretics was himself executed as one. That’s the very definition of being hoisted on one’s own gallows petard.

143 hazzyday  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:20:52pm

re: #125 Bubbaman

Someone awhile back linked a story about a massive amount of smoke detectors gone missing from Target I think.

144 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:21:00pm

re: #126 Charles

Thomas More didn’t only burn heretics — he tortured them.

And it wasn’t panties, or caterpillars.

145 Buster Bunny  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:21:05pm

re: #134 Charles

No thanks. I’m overloaded with troll rump as it is. I have cut them into bite size portions to mix with pasta .. but there has been a heap over the last two days.

My fridge is full to bursting.

Do Mobys freeze well?

146 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:21:05pm

re: #128 holycrusader

Would this not be a case of a planted story by the NeoLibs? I’m calling BS on this one. Wikileaks is the source. Huh? Might as well be Debka. The left would do anything to tar and feather the right. I think we’ll be seeing more of this type of thing. It’s c rap!

Here you go, sugar:

[Link: kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com…]

147 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:21:07pm

re: #135 ArmyWife

Waterboarding, huh?

(sorry, I couldn’t help it. I’ll be serious from now on. Maybe).

Nope. Real torture. Thumbscrews. The rack.

This kind of stuff.

148 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:21:21pm

re: #120 HoosierHoops

Good evening Brat..Hope today finds you well…
There have been meltdowns all day..For all the talk of the GOP being the party of adults there sure have been a bunch of over sensitive whiney ass babies jumping off the cliff today..
The totals of deletes must be nearing a record..
some people need to grow up and chill the hell out…

Hi there.

Yes — was in earlier — it’d reached six already.

149 godfrey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:21:32pm

re: #126 Charles

St. Thomas More, subjecting heretics to torture himself. And your source for this is John Foxe. Foxe was a Protestant polemicist.

150 CommonCents  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:21:49pm

re: #26 IslandLibertarian

He was planning a man made disaster, no doubt.

Criminals, insurrectionists, terrorists all belong locked up.
Regardless of political affiliation.

Terrorists don’t belong “locked up”, IMHO. The death penalty is there for a reason.

151 Bobblehead  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:21:56pm

I’m really tired of these loonies, left and right. That’s all I have to say.

152 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:22:39pm

re: #143 hazzyday

Someone awhile back linked a story about a massive amount of smoke detectors gone missing from Target I think.

Actually I think it was exit signs at Walmart that used some radioactive material so they glow when the power failed. Some 20K went missing.

153 jwb7605  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:22:53pm

re: #7 Charles

“National Socialists” are not socialists in the Marxist sense. The operative word is “National,” as in “nationalism.”

Sounds more like the operative word is “Nazi”, according to Wikipedia.

154 Buster Bunny  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:22:53pm

re: #147 Charles

In Washington D.C. these days they actually supply hookers with that stuff.

You know .. for the ‘diplomat’ clientelle.

155 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:23:04pm

I think I’m gonna lose my five bucks real fast here.

156 brennk2  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:23:13pm

I think the point that people critical of the DHS report were making was that it was short on specifics. This guy certainly fits the bill of a right-wing extremist but it’s just one guy. When I see a pattern of extremism on the right as we do on the left then I worry more. As of now I still find the content of the report to be mostly hyperbole and speculation.

157 SixDegrees  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:23:30pm

re: #39 Sharmuta

It would be interesting to find out how he acquired uranium. I don’t really want islamofascists or nazis getting their hands on this stuff.

Depends on what is meant by “uranium.” Uranium ore is pretty easy to come by. Refined uranium is more difficult; most of it is purchased by the government for processing into fuel rods and weapons. Uranium oxide has been used as a glass pigment for hundreds of years; it’s responsible for the bright green color of Depression-era “vaseline glass,” which also glows bright green under an ultraviolet light. Uranium oxide is not difficult to purchase; it is manufactured from depleted uranium, which has very low radioactivity.

More specifics would be needed to determine what he actually had. I’m guessing it wasn’t anything particularly harmful.

The whole point of a dirty bomb is to generate terror, not deaths. It’s the perfect weapon for use in the US, where there is an hysterical fear of anything radioactive. All you need to do is scatter enough material that will trigger a Geiger counter over a wide area, and you’ll cause all kinds of deaths - from heart attack and other stress-related causes, not from radiation sickness. Given the willingness of agencies like the EPA to go off on a nut over all kinds of imagined environmental toxins, a dirty bomb that spread harmlessly radioactive material over a few blocks of Manhattan real estate would likely lead to the agency shutting down the entire island for a few hundred years. So this nutbar didn’t need to get ahold of anything really dangerous to achieve exactly the sort of effect he was probably after.

158 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:23:36pm

re: #134 Charles

Good grief. Anyone for a moby?

Do you have grape?

159 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:23:59pm

Wow, what a terrible nutcase. I only hope the jury is lenient with his wife.

160 calcajun  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:24:46pm

re: #126 Charles

He was only trying to help them see the error of their ways—being cruel to be kind. It in no ways justifies what happened to him in the end—but to make him a saint? And my family wonders why I left the Catholics. The flip side is some Protestant leaders like Cramner tortured counter-Reformers and then ended up on the pyre when Mary I ascended to the throne. Fun times indeed.

At least none of them used water-boards and caterpillars-nothing so inhumane.

161 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:25:22pm

Glenn Beck said some hippie chick planted the stuff in his house to discredit the Tea party movement …

/

162 Bubbaman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:25:28pm

re: #104 Emerald

Like after some nutcase exploded it, filling the surrounding air with thorium dust?

Not to diminish the risk in any way, but I doubt he had sufficient quantities of Thorium or Uranium to pose a serious radioactive dispersal threat. Check your basement for Radon - that’s a greater risk for you.

163 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:25:30pm

Now I’m getting hate mail for posting this.

164 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:25:43pm

This man was a real piece of work. His wife has not been charged for the shooting which I will assume was some form of self-defense. His father was shot and killed by a “disgruntled” employee about 10 years ago at the age of 77. The son was privy to the James G. Cummings Trust with an estimated “income” of 10 million dollars:

Slain Belfast man was ‘angry’

BELFAST, Maine — As the police investigation into the shooting death of James G. Cummings entered its third day, traits about his personality came to light along with the fact that his father also was shot to death.

Cummings, 29, of High Street was the son of a wealthy California businessman, James G. Cummings Sr., who was murdered a decade ago by a disgruntled employee, according to newspaper reports.

The younger Cummings was reportedly shot to death by his wife, Amber B. Cummings, 31, at their High Street home Tuesday morning. The couple’s 9-year-old daughter was at the house when the killing occurred. Police are investigating the killing as a domestic violence homicide. No arrests have been made, and Amber Cummings and her daughter remain in the Belfast area.

165 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:25:44pm

re: #156 brennk2

I think the point that people critical of the DHS report were making was that it was short on specifics. This guy certainly fits the bill of a right-wing extremist but it’s just one guy. When I see a pattern of extremism on the right as we do on the left then I worry more. As of now I still find the content of the report to be mostly hyperbole and speculation.

I don’t see any problem with this comment. Why ding it.

166 Bobblehead  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:25:47pm

re: #126 Charles

Thomas More didn’t only burn heretics — he tortured them.

He was definitely not the Thomas More of you see on stage and screen. BTW. my avatar is a sketch of his daughter-in-law by Holbein.

167 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:26:11pm
168 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:26:22pm
169 Benschachar  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:26:33pm

Uhh…Charles, you did notice the part about the subscription to a socialist organization, right?

170 mph  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:26:56pm

Every time my home state of Maine is in the news, it never seems to be for anything good. What is in the water up those woods?

171 iceman1960  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:27:00pm

Right wing extremists, left wing extemists… why don’t we call it what it is? A nut is a f#$kin nut.
The problem is these Nazi skinhead types should be labeled as such. Not some little conservative old lady, family or group of people that own guns, go to church, are pro-life, think federal government spending and expansion of power are getting out of hand, dont like illegals coming in the back door and have no problem speaking their mind about it.

172 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:27:06pm

re: #149 godfrey

St. Thomas More, subjecting heretics to torture himself. And your source for this is John Foxe. Foxe was a Protestant polemicist.

It’s not just Foxe. “Thomas More” by Richard Marius has a whole chapter, in Google Books, on More’s dealings with heretics. More had written in his own “Dialogue Concerning Heresies” that a heretic would always recant his beliefs if he was faced with death. Many Protestants took him up on that challenge and More gleefully met them.

173 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:27:18pm

re: #160 calcajun

He was only trying to help them see the error of their ways—being cruel to be kind. It in no ways justifies what happened to him in the end—but to make him a saint? And my family wonders why I left the Catholics. The flip side is some Protestant leaders like Cramner tortured counter-Reformers and then ended up on the pyre when Mary I ascended to the throne. Fun times indeed.

At least none of them used water-boards and caterpillars-nothing so inhumane.

Proselytizing faiths of all stripes have demonstrated an unfortunate and regrettable historical tendency to scourge the body in order to save the soul.

174 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:27:27pm

re: #159 Pvt Bin Jammin

Wow, what a terrible nutcase. I only hope the jury is lenient with his wife.


poses some interesting questions eh?….what was he guilty of exactly?

175 Bobblehead  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:27:31pm

re: #168 goddessoftheclassroom

Weren’t we speaking of dancing last night?

Very suave!

176 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:27:43pm

re: #147 Charles

If I was brave, I’d post this link at DU under the “OH MY GOODNESS PANTIES ON THE HEAD” hysteria threads.

177 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:27:47pm

re: #109 calcajun

Thanks—you never do get to see that part in “A Man for All Seasons”. So much for understanding and tolerance.

My thanks also. My uber-religious catholic mother made me watch “A Man for All Seasons” when I was younger.

178 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:27:47pm

re: #156 brennk2

I think the point that people critical of the DHS report were making was that it was short on specifics. This guy certainly fits the bill of a right-wing extremist but it’s just one guy. When I see a pattern of extremism on the right as we do on the left then I worry more. As of now I still find the content of the report to be mostly hyperbole and speculation.

Just one guy? Regardless of his ideological point of reference, any individual with dirty bomb material and bomb making instructions should be conserning to every citizen.

179 Simply Me  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:28:12pm

re: #44 jcm

Economic Left/Right: 1.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.36

180 jwb7605  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:28:17pm

re: #169 Benschachar

Uhh…Charles, you did notice the part about the subscription to a socialist organization, right?



National Socialist
party === Nazi

181 Emerald  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:28:40pm

re: #162 Bubbaman

Not to diminish the risk in any way, but I doubt he had sufficient quantities of Thorium or Uranium to pose a serious radioactive dispersal threat. Check your basement for Radon - that’s a greater risk for you.

He already had two containers of it, not to mention the other compounds. How many more did he need before you’d take him seriously?

182 Arbalest  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:28:54pm

James G. Cummings does not fit several of the profiles listed in Janet Napolitano’s report.

Several takeaways from the link provided at the top of this thread:

James G. Cummings, who police say was shot to death by his wife two months ago, …

She [Amber B. Cummings, 31] allegedly told police that Cummings subjected her to years of mental, physical and sexual abuse. She also said that Cummings was “very upset” when Barack Obama was elected president.

Robbins, who worked on the house for a month last summer, described Cummings as an angry person who was verbally abusive to his wife. He said Cummings apparently was independently wealthy and did not work. Robbins said Cummings talked incessantly about his love of guns and his fascination for Hitler. He said Cummings repeatedly berated his wife about home-schooling their daughter. He said Cummings had a controlling personality and wanted to know his wife and child’s every move.

… it appears that the actual source of his wealth was a trust fund established by his father, a prominent landowner in the Northern California city of Fort Bragg. An Internet search of the James B. Cummings Trust indicated that it has an annual income of $10 million.

Is he a veteran? The answer seems to be “no”. The Nazi memorabilia and membership application suggests he wasn’t brave enough to do a tour.

Unemployment seems to be not an issue for him, as do unavailable credit or home foreclosures; he doesn’t have to work, as he’s a trust fund boy.

This doesn’t make him less of a threat (although maybe it does, because he was obviously stupid), but it does show that he was more like Billy Ayres (wealthy parents, angry boys) than American servicemen and veterans.

.
I downloaded what I believe to be a true and accurate .pdf copy of Napolitano’s DHS report; there are too many places where the words “veteran” and “rightwing” are specifically used, when no supporting evidence is provided to indicate that “veteran” and “rightwing” are appropriate and “leftwing”, “social activist”, etc., are not.

The DHS report smells of propaganda. Its concluding paragraph, as written. sounds conspiratorial, and implies that actions have already been undertaken.

Janet Napolitano (a rather high ranking government official) seems to be happy to defend it, so I choose to take her words and this report at face value.

183 CommonCents  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:29:31pm

re: #163 Charles

Now I’m getting hate mail for posting this.

From who? I would say I’m a rightest, even a nationalist to a point, but I see nothing wrong with this thread or any thread for that matter. As a lover of this country I also love freedom of speech and everyone else’s right too.

184 brennk2  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:29:51pm

re: #165 unrealizedviewpoint

Still a little new at this but I agree, why ding my comment. I’m only saying that the report did not contain much content as to actual groups or existing threats that are new since the election. I would never argue that the far-right can not be dangerous. History makes that very clear.

185 holycrusader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:29:56pm

re: #146 pink freud

Ok thanks Freud..that is much more credible! Definitely a whacko. Unlike the “religion of pieces” and it’s multitude of whackos. It is just one solitary nutjob. Dangerous nonetheless. I’m surprised World of Warcraft fans weren’t included in the DHS memo. Maybe they’ll be next.

186 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:30:21pm

re: #169 Benschachar

Uhh…Charles, you did notice the part about the subscription to a socialist organization, right?

Uh … maybe you should learn something about “National Socialism” before posting foolish comments like that.

187 Buster Bunny  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:30:29pm

re: #178 Sharmuta

Just one guy? Regardless of his ideological point of reference, any individual with dirty bomb material and bomb making instructions should be conserning to every citizen.

Sharm .. if we are doing things properly .. in 10 years each household will have a personal Nuclear Fusion generator to run their power requirements. And then it really comes down to this. Anything can be used as a weapon. It has always been the case. What stops people from making weapons? People who are prepared to use severe punishment to dissuade them from doing so.

Thats all it comes down to.

188 MacGregor  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:30:39pm

I hate Nazis. Does this guy match any of the criteria laid out in either of the DHS reports? Anti-abortion, veteran, religious, 1337 haxor?

189 calcajun  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:31:28pm

re: #163 Charles

Damned if you do…

190 davinvalkri  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:31:37pm

re: #1 zombie

I hate Maine Nazis.

Made of win. And I can’t say I’m sorry he’s dead either. But is he the kind of person the Homeland Security report was talking about?

191 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:31:38pm

re: #178 Sharmuta

Just one guy? Regardless of his ideological point of reference, any individual with dirty bomb material and bomb making instructions should be conserning to every citizen.

of course…but then his wife gunned him down in a domestic violence feud…how are the two connected, I mean she murdered him it seems

192 mph  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:31:42pm

re: #77 loppyd

BTW Belfast, Maine is beautiful.

I was skiing there this winter. It is quite nice..

193 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:31:44pm
194 Palandine  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:31:47pm

re: #13 jcm

National Socialist = Right Authoritarian.
Marxist / Leninist Socialist = Left Authoritarian.

Left and Right is too simplistic.

Quoted for truth.

Glenn Beck makes an interesting point about this (and I by no means think everything he says is worthwhile). The debate, maybe until the early 20th century, in this country was not about a continuum from left to right, it was about a continuum between complete government weakness (anarchy) and complete government control (fascism, communism, nazism, etc.). Both the hard left and the hard right have pushed for greater government control.

And on topic—the country is a better place with this scumbag dead.

195 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:31:56pm

re: #164 Gus 802

This man was a real piece of work. His wife has not been charged for the shooting which I will assume was some form of self-defense. His father was shot and killed by a “disgruntled” employee about 10 years ago at the age of 77. The son was privy to the James G. Cummings Trust with an estimated “income” of 10 million dollars:

Slain Belfast man was ‘angry’

Also pedophilia:

“The investigators’ computer search uncovered 45 video clips and 700 digital images of child pornography, the affidavits stated.”

196 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:31:57pm

Good freaking grief.

197 axegrinder  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:32:12pm

re: #156 brennk2

I didn’t see him as a right wing extremist. I saw him as a whacko racist. Why are racists labeled ‘right wing?’ Just because they hat Obama? I know more then a few Democrats that didn’t vote or voted Libertarian simply because they didn’t like Obama. Right wing they ain’t. Since they generally expect the government to take care of them I’d consider them liberal.

198 holycrusader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:32:13pm

re: #171 iceman1960

agree! nuts are nuts

199 jim in virginia  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:32:19pm

re: #102 Charles

She was on Fox News. This is where Fox News is headed.

Given a choice of Fox, CNN, and the Olberman Matthews network, whom do you pick?

200 Syrah  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:32:35pm

re: #169 Benschachar

Uhh…Charles, you did notice the part about the subscription to a socialist organization, right?

Italian Fascism was Nationalist without being fixated on race. German National Socialism was explicitly about race. The Nazis were about race first, their socialism was an afterthought by comparison.

201 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:32:41pm
202 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:32:43pm

re: #187 Buster Bunny

What stops people from making weapons? People who are prepared to use severe punishment to dissuade them from doing so.

Thats all it comes down to.

Social and legal pressures keep people in line- constraining the passions of men.

203 HoosierHoops  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:32:48pm

re: #188 MacGregor

I hate Nazis. Does this guy match any of the criteria laid out in either of the DHS reports? Anti-abortion, veteran, religious, 1337 haxor?

I dunno..But that may be the best Avatar of all time..hands down

204 LesLein  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:32:57pm

In their own words:

“What we were doing in this country were some of the things that were being done in Russia and even some of the things that were being done under Hitler in Germany. But we were doing them in an orderly way.” — Franklin D. Roosevelt.

“There is at least one official voice in Europe that expresses understanding of the methods and motives of President Roosevelt. That voice is that of Germany, as represented by Chancellor Adolf Hitler.” — New York Times, July 10, 1933, pages 1 and 6.

“The President’s successful battle against economic distress is being followed by the entire German people with interest and admiration.” — Hitler

Hitler told ambassador William Dodd that he shared the President’s view “that the virtue of duty, readiness for sacrifice, and discipline should dominate the entire people. These moral demands which the President places before every individual citizen of the United States are also the quintessence of the German state philosophy, which finds its expression in the slogan ‘The Public Weal Transcends the Interest of the Individual.’”

Roosevelt’s National Recovery Administration’s study, Capitalism and Labor Under Fascism: “The fascist principles are very similar to those which have been evolving in America and so are of particular interest at this time.”

“We have seen the Fascisti in Italy and a number of clumsy imitations elsewhere, and we have seen the Russian Communist Party coming into existence to reinforce this idea … I am asking for a Liberal Fascisti, for enlightened Nazis.” — H.G. Wells

205 Bubbaman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:33:28pm

In terms of radioactive dispersal risks, I’ve got to say that I am more concerned about terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda obtaining sufficient quantities of highly enriched Uranium or Plutonium or other elements and detonating a dirty bomb or securing a low-level nuclear device. In terms of domestic threats, I fear food/drug supply compromises, chemical attacks, and/or Tim McVeigh like actions.

Hopefully, our agencies are using actionable intelligence.

206 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:33:35pm

re: #169 Benschachar

Uhh…Charles, you did notice the part about the subscription to a socialist organization, right?

It said “national socialism.” From the PDF:

Amber ((Cummings)) indicated James was very upset with Barack Obama being elected President. She indicated James had been in contact with ‘white supremacist groups.”

207 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:33:36pm

re: #178 Sharmuta

It is - because the guy is a nut. He is not a nut because of being a conservative, though. He’s a nut because he’s a nut. I don’t like painting all conservatives as ready to go off at any given moment, because I am, in fact, a conservative. I have no dirty pants bombs anywhere in my home. Nor do I have plans to build one, nor do I think cavorting with nazis sounds like a fine idea.

I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that conservative = bomb yielding lunatic, but I would hate to have some of the upper echelon (who seem to enjoy sending dear Charles love notes via email) think that is the correlation being made because they can’t read more than 2 or 3 words of Charles’ posts.

208 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:34:03pm

re: #182 Arbalest

James G. Cummings does not fit several of the profiles listed in Janet Napolitano’s report.

There are no “profiles” in the DHS report. That’s a complete distortion.

209 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:34:19pm

re: #175 Bobblehead

Very suave!

But stays on the ground floor.
(“Fraid a’stairs”)

210 capitalist piglet  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:34:33pm

re: #202 Sharmuta

Social and legal pressures keep people in line- constraining the passions of men.

Hey Sharm, did you ever hear anything from Rush? I just heard that ad during Mark Levin’s show - heard it on Levin’s show last night, as well.

211 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:34:43pm

Although the vast majority of Americans - Republican and Democrat alike - are not racist (and really couldn’t care less about President Obama’s skin color) it must been acknowledged that the election of a black man as President of the United States has surely made Barack Obama a target for assassination like no President since Lincoln….and it is very unlikely that such an event would be carried out by someone (or group) on the Left.

The concern over a radical Right-wing threat, however small in numbers, is not mere paranoia, it’s an unfortunate reality.

212 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:34:54pm

re: #195 pink freud

Also pedophilia:

“The investigators’ computer search uncovered 45 video clips and 700 digital images of child pornography, the affidavits stated.”

Weird. And he used to “walk around his house wearing a cowboy hat and an ankle-length black leather coat.”

213 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:34:56pm

I do not however find evidence in Marius’s biography that More tortured anybody. So Charles might want to retract that particular Foxe-ism until someone comes up with firmer evidence.

More DID question heretics in his house, and sometimes imprison them, with clergy around. That was an intimidating environment, because More could and DID burn people; and there really is a Guantanamo analogy there.

But torture with the racks and the thumbscrews and the iron maiden oy vey! No, More didn’t seem to have done any of that…

214 CommonCents  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:35:15pm

re: #202 Sharmuta

Social and legal pressures keep people in line- constraining the passions of men.

Going to court doesn’t scare people, it’s the judgment that is handed down.

215 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:35:31pm

re: #199 jim in virginia

Given a choice of Fox, CNN, and the Olberman Matthews network, whom do you pick?

Can I vote for none of the above, and proactively seek out the news on the internet?

216 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:35:52pm

re: #203 HoosierHoops

I dunno..But that may be the best Avatar of all time..hands down

I’d upding that avatar if able.

217 godfrey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:36:41pm

re: #172 Zimriel

I neither can, nor desire, to make any defense of burning heretics. Tudor England was a vicious place, and viciousness came from every side. I am deeply skeptical that St. Thomas More felt any “gleefulness” in any of the situations we all (I suspect) have no expertise in pontificating about.

What I object to is Charles’s insinuation that Thomas More is “known for” burning heretics. He is not. He is known for not capitulating to the tyranny of Henry VIII and not disowning his Catholic allegiance. It’s no secret I’m sympathetic to that, and I will make no apology for it.

218 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:37:19pm

re: #194 Palandine

The debate, maybe until the early 20th century, in this country was not about a continuum from left to right, it was about a continuum between complete government weakness (anarchy) and complete government control (fascism, communism, nazism, etc.). Both the hard left and the hard right have pushed for greater government control.

I believe the debate has centered around the issue of the proper role of government and how best to restrict the less desirable aspects of human nature from both the governed and the governing.

219 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:37:21pm

is the story that this man was a right wing anarchist radical or that he was killed by his wife?….why did she kill him?

220 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:37:30pm

Looks like she was charged with murder:

[Link: www.bangordailynews.com…]

221 capitalist piglet  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:38:07pm

re: #203 HoosierHoops

I dunno..But that may be the best Avatar of all time..hands down

You mean hands up.

222 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:38:47pm

re: #185 holycrusader

Ok thanks Freud..that is much more credible! Definitely a whacko. Unlike the “religion of pieces” and it’s multitude of whackos. It is just one solitary nutjob. Dangerous nonetheless. I’m surprised World of Warcraft fans weren’t included in the DHS memo. Maybe they’ll be next.

Solitary nutjob? Do you believe that he lived in a bubble of isolation with all of his hate? There’s an entire network of these “whack-o’s” in America.

Be thankful for the DHS instead of ridiculing them.

223 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:38:50pm

re: #217 godfrey

What I object to is Charles’s insinuation that Thomas More is “known for” burning heretics.

Object all you like, but it’s true: Thomas More:

More supported the Catholic Church and saw heresy as a threat to the unity of both church and society. “He agreed with established English law, and with the lessons taught by the thousand-year experience of Christendom, that in order for peace to reign, heresy must be controlled. At the time, heresies were identified as seditious attempts to undermine existing authority …. More heard Luther’s call to destroy the heart of Christendom, the Catholic Church, as a call to war. He therefore followed traditional procedures to insure the safety of this legitimate and time-honored institution.”[7] However, More also sought radical clergy reform and more rational theology.

His early actions against the Protestants included aiding Wolsey in preventing Lutheran books from being imported into England. He also assisted in the production of a Star Chamber edict against heretical preaching, treating heretics mercilessly. During this time most of his literary polemics appeared. After becoming Lord Chancellor of England, More set himself the following task:

“Now seeing that the king’s gracious purpose in this point, I reckon that being his unworthy chancellor, it appertaineth … to help as much as in me is, that his people, abandoning the contagion of all such pestilent writing, may be far from infection.”

More is commemorated with a sculpture at the late 19th-century Sir Thomas More Chambers, opposite the Royal Courts of Justice, Carey Street, London.
In June 1530 it was decreed that offenders were to be brought before the King’s Council, rather than being examined by their bishops, the practice hitherto. Actions taken by the Council became ever more severe. In 1531, Richard Bayfield, a graduate of the University of Cambridge and former Benedictine monk, was burned at Smithfield for distributing copies of the New Testament.[8]

Further burnings followed at More’s instigation, including that of the priest and writer John Frith in 1533. In The Confutation of Tyndale’s Answer, yet another polemic, More took particular interest[citation needed] in the execution of Sir Thomas Hitton, describing him as “the devil’s stinking martyr”.[9]

Rumors circulated during and after More’s lifetime concerning his treatment of heretics; John Foxe (who “placed Protestant sufferings against the background of … the Antichrist”)[10] in his Book of Martyrs claimed that More had often used violence or torture while interrogating them. A more recent Evangelical author, Michael Farris[who?], also used Foxe’s book as a reference in writing that in April 1529 a heretic, John Tewkesbury, was taken by More to his house in Chelsea and so badly tortured on the rack that he was almost unable to walk. Tewkesbury was subsequently burned at the stake.

224 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:39:00pm

re: #207 ArmyWife

I have no dirty pants bombs anywhere in my home

.

I would have bet you had kids.
/great post armywife.

225 godfrey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:39:00pm

It would be good to root out all this rottenness in the Right, just as it’d be just as good to do so in the Left.

226 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:39:06pm
227 Nevergiveup  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:39:25pm

Hey do ya know Ace has you up again?

[Link: ace.mu.nu…]

228 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:39:33pm

re: #217 godfrey

What I object to is Charles’s insinuation that Thomas More is “known for” burning heretics. He is not. He is known for not capitulating to the tyranny of Henry VIII and not disowning his Catholic allegiance. It’s no secret I’m sympathetic to that, and I will make no apology for it.

“Known” is a passive voice. More is known by Catholics and libertarians as someone who stood up to Henry VIII. More is also known by Protestants - and, again, libertarians - as someone who sent unbelievers to the frickin’ STAKE.

I mean, come on.

229 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:39:45pm

OT: Syrah Dear- I’ll be late to our weekly spinoff hook-up, but I have a great link for it.

230 SteveRogers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:39:46pm

re: #7 Charles

“National Socialists” are not socialists in the Marxist sense. The operative word is “National,” as in “nationalism.”

Good point, Charles. However, didn’t the NAZI’s have a lot in common with Marxist ideology, such as banning private gun ownership and class warfare to a lesser extent, among other things?

231 jwb7605  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:39:46pm

re: #179 Simply Me

Economic Left/Right: 1.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.36

my political compass
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.82

So much for being a right wing lunatic. I’m a dead center sorta kinda Libertarian.

232 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:40:09pm

re: #220 Gus 802

Looks like she was charged with murder:

[Link: www.bangordailynews.com…]

a little more light….mental and sexual abuse, pretty typical

233 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:40:11pm
234 holycrusader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:40:46pm

[Link: kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com…]

After reading this, It really wouldn’t surprise me if she set the whole thing up to frame the murder of her husband. It’s just too bizarre to be believable. It’s very elaborate but I could see it happening. She would have to be very calculating, but it is possible. Where’s Colombo when you need him?

235 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:40:50pm

re: #232 albusteve

a little more light….mental and sexual abuse, pretty typical

Yep. Insanity plea.

236 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:41:02pm

re: #227 Nevergiveup

Hey do ya know Ace has you up again?

[Link: ace.mu.nu…]

I’ve given up reading Ace’s website. There’s only so much hatred I can take.

237 axegrinder  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:41:04pm

re: #219 albusteve

From what I’ve read so far; 10 million reasons.

238 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:41:18pm

re: #224 unrealizedviewpoint

I do! I have two, 17 and 10. They’ve been potty trained awhile now. The chihuahuas on the other hand…

239 Bubbaman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:41:32pm

re: #181 Emerald

He already had two containers of it, not to mention the other compounds. How many more did he need before you’d take him seriously?

Did I say that I didn’t take him seriously? The guy was a lunatic and his wife saved our country a lot of grief. But all risks are relative. What was the “container” size and amount recovered? At most a couple of grams.

It’s beyond the scope of the discussion here to address all of the concerns, but let me say this. Quantities of radioactive material sufficient to cause significant public harm are highly regulated in the U.S. What isn’t regulated are sources outside of the U.S. as well as items that may be diverted (stolen).

240 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:41:35pm

re: #237 axegrinder

From what I’ve read so far; 10 million reasons.

what do you mean?

241 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:41:38pm

re: #234 holycrusader

[Link: kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com…]

After reading this, It really wouldn’t surprise me if she set the whole thing up to frame the murder of her husband. It’s just too bizarre to be believable. It’s very elaborate but I could see it happening. She would have to be very calculating, but it is possible. Where’s Colombo when you need him?

What the hell are you talking about?

242 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:41:48pm

re: #226 goddessoftheclassroom

If only you knew…

If only YOU knew!

243 hazzyday  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:41:48pm

re: #217 godfrey

I neither can, nor desire, to make any defense of burning heretics. Tudor England was a vicious place, and viciousness came from every side. I am deeply skeptical that St. Thomas More felt any “gleefulness” in any of the situations we all (I suspect) have no expertise in pontificating about.

What I object to is Charles’s insinuation that Thomas More is “known for” burning heretics. He is not. He is known for not capitulating to the tyranny of Henry VIII and not disowning his Catholic allegiance. It’s no secret I’m sympathetic to that, and I will make no apology for it.

I couldn’t watch that movie Elizabeth I? or the sequel. I am too squeamish.

244 Syrah  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:41:49pm

re: #229 Sharmuta

OT: Syrah Dear- I’ll be late to our weekly spinoff hook-up, but I have a great link for it.

Looking forward to it.

Depending on how I feel this evening, I may not respond until Saturday.

245 SixDegrees  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:41:54pm

re: #162 Bubbaman

Not to diminish the risk in any way, but I doubt he had sufficient quantities of Thorium or Uranium to pose a serious radioactive dispersal threat. Check your basement for Radon - that’s a greater risk for you.

See my post, above. For a dirty bomb to be effective, all it has to do is trigger a Geiger counter. It doesn’t have to possess a dangerous amount of radioactive material, just enough to induce panic. People has an hysterical fear of ANY kind of radiation, and if any radioactive substance were released over a densely inhabited area - like Manhattan, for example - it would shut business and traffic in the area down for weeks, possibly months or even years depending on how bad the hysteria got. You’d also see lots of stress-related deaths - heart attacks, strokes and so on - even though you wouldn’t see a single case of radiation sickness.

246 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:42:19pm

re: #236 Charles

I’ve given up reading Ace’s website. There’s only so much hatred I can take.

Ace gives you the last word, so he’s not given up on you…

247 HoosierHoops  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:42:34pm

Dear So?
You downdinged my comment at #334.. Why?
Bring your ‘A’ game the next time I see you..You little F*ck

248 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:42:37pm

re: #150 CommonCents

Terrorists don’t belong “locked up” and awaiting execution, IMHO. The death penalty is there for a reason.

ok?

249 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:43:08pm

re: #234 holycrusader

That’s a misogynistic assumption to make. Blaming the woman for being a victim of an abusive, rapist nazi?! Fuck you.

250 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:43:59pm

re: #244 Syrah

I’m sorry you’re not feeling well. I hope to see you there, regardless of when.

251 LGoPs  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:44:08pm

re: #30 NYCHardhat

I guess I’m lower right.

me too……

252 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:44:31pm

re: #234 holycrusader

That’s enough. Get off my website.

253 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:44:52pm

re: #247 HoosierHoops

I went back & updinged it to make up for the error.

254 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:44:56pm

I just lost five bucks!

255 tompaineftw  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:45:01pm

re: #247 HoosierHoops

Dear So?
You downdinged my comment at #334.. Why?
Bring your ‘A’ game the next time I see you..You little F*ck

OT: Howto see who dinged your comments?

256 Nevergiveup  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:45:17pm

Assad: Syria supports Hizbullah because it fights Israel
Syrian president tells Lebanese daily his country supports Shiite group because it fights Israel, says relations with Iran strategic; ‘Syria-Lebanon border will be drawn only after Israel pulls out of Shebaa Farms,’ he adds

[Link: www.ynetnews.com…]

And the USA is making nicie nice with him to? What does a murdering dictator have to do now a days to get on Obama’s shit list?

257 godfrey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:45:29pm

re: #223 Charles

And your point is what? That the name “Thomas More” taints everything, that he was a maniacal heretic burner, and that Catholics cannot, on principle, be trusted with anything? That would be ridiculous.

Also, as you well know, wiki is not everything. If you read the entry on John Foxe, who was also a good, scholarly, (and biased) man, you will come to a final assessment of him by a scholar named Thomas Freeman. I know Mr. Freeman fairly well. He would strongly disagree with how you’re using Thomas More here.

If you’re really interested in More beyond political use, I can forward you a bibliography. Will it completely exonerate More? I don’t know.

258 SixDegrees  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:45:40pm

re: #217 godfrey

I neither can, nor desire, to make any defense of burning heretics. Tudor England was a vicious place, and viciousness came from every side. I am deeply skeptical that St. Thomas More felt any “gleefulness” in any of the situations we all (I suspect) have no expertise in pontificating about.

What I object to is Charles’s insinuation that Thomas More is “known for” burning heretics. He is not. He is known for not capitulating to the tyranny of Henry VIII and not disowning his Catholic allegiance. It’s no secret I’m sympathetic to that, and I will make no apology for it.

Uh - that’s the “A Man For All Seasons” version. It left out the good bits.

Great movie, with lots to recommend it. But historically accurate, not so much, thanks to it’s omissions.

259 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:45:59pm

You didn’t need eagle eyes to see that one coming down the pike…

260 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:46:02pm

re: #255 tompaineftw

OT: Howto see who dinged your comments?

left-click the number
that’ll also update the number

261 HoosierHoops  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:46:05pm

re: #253 unrealizedviewpoint

I went back & updinged it to make up for the error.

Thank you..The humor was pretty light I thought..

262 Nevergiveup  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:46:24pm

re: #255 tompaineftw

OT: Howto see who dinged your comments?

click on the number

263 Spar Kling  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:46:34pm

There are plenty of nut jobs on the political and religious extremes. Most of them simply stew in their own juices. That’s this idiot had dangerous substances probably made him feel conspiratorial and powerful. But there doesn’t seem to have been any evidence of a delivery mechanism. What was he going to do? Throw a jar of lithium immersed in oil at a politician? Light a magnesium strip and put it in a politician’s shoe? Put iron (II) oxide in someone’s sandwich?

But this kind of stuff provides bureaucratic agencies political ammunition. That the information was kept for release for a politically opportune moment is proof.

-sk

264 Dustyvet  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:46:34pm

re: #254 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I just lost five bucks!

Seattle Slew 5th race at Belmount…:) By a nose…:)

265 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:46:36pm

re: #255 tompaineftw

I just updinged you. now click on the number next to your comment.

266 Palandine  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:46:39pm

Okay, I’ll try to explain myself better.

I have a combination of beliefs that can be considered left wing, and some that are right wing, as most people do. I agree with the liberal-minded Thoreau who said that government is best that governs least. I agree with the Founding Fathers who set up the weakest federal government that was still able to hold the country together. I am repulsed by authoritarians of any type. I am repulsed by terrorists regardless of their beliefs, which this scumbag was.

I think the DHS report was a terrible piece of intelligence work in that it established overly broad categories of people to worry about, as opposed to the DHS report on the left wing, which mentioned specific groups. It’s not good intelligence if it’s not actionable. Having said that, I also don’t think that all members of Earth First! or the Animal Liberation Front or whatever are potential terrorists. I also don’t think it was a vast leftwing conspiracy to publish it on tea party week.

267 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:46:47pm

re: #234 holycrusader

Yes. Women obtain uranium, have their husbands fill out applications to join the local Nazi Network and plant books on “Building Bombs for Dummies” just to be able to shoot them all the time . So much easier than a messy divorce.

268 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:46:51pm

re: #257 godfrey

My point is that the Thomas More Law Center named themselves after a person who stood for burning and torturing heretics.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

269 Jack Burton  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:46:59pm

re: #21 jcm

Political compass is a better tool than left v. right.

I guess I should show this to them the next time some asshat tries to call me a lefty.

Economic Left Right: 6.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.15

270 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:47:21pm

re: #242 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If only YOU knew!

This round to you! MWAH!

I need to recover…

271 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:47:54pm

re: #263 Spar Kling

There are plenty of nut jobs on the political and religious extremes. Most of them simply stew in their own juices. That’s this idiot had dangerous substances probably made him feel conspiratorial and powerful. But there doesn’t seem to have been any evidence of a delivery mechanism. What was he going to do? Throw a jar of lithium immersed in oil at a politician? Light a magnesium strip and put it in a politician’s shoe? Put iron (II) oxide in someone’s sandwich?

But this kind of stuff provides bureaucratic agencies political ammunition. That the information was kept for release for a politically opportune moment is proof.

-sk

Got that list of “peer reviewed” scientific papers on intelligent design yet? We’re still waiting.

272 davinvalkri  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:48:01pm

re: #234 holycrusader

Seems a tadge paranoid on your part, doesn’t it?

273 Nevergiveup  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:48:04pm

re: #267 ArmyWife

Yes. Women obtain uranium, have their husbands fill out applications to join the local Nazi Network and plant books on “Building Bombs for Dummies” just to be able to shoot them all the time . So much easier than a messy divorce.

My wife was asking me if there was any uranium in my watch. Hum. should I be worried?
/

274 sleepyone  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:48:16pm

Wow. They’ve talked about this case on the radio here in Maine for a while but this is the first I’ve heard mention the guy was a nazi!

275 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:48:29pm

re: #263 Spar Kling

You guys are starting to sound like the RoP talking about fireworks and peaceful inner struggles.

276 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:48:41pm

re: #266 Palandine

You should check out A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell.

277 CynicalConservative  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:48:53pm

re: #21 jcm

Political compass is a better tool than left v. right.

Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69

278 LGoPs  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:49:10pm

Later lizards.

279 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:49:32pm

re: #270 goddessoftheclassroom

This round to you! MWAH!

I need to recover…

*apprehensive*

MWAH!

280 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:49:47pm

re: #268 Charles

My point is that the Thomas More Law Center named themselves after a person who stood for burning and torturing heretics.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

Doesn’t that smack a bit of “the George Washington University named themselves after a slaveowner!”?

281 godfrey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:49:53pm

re: #258 SixDegrees

Uh, it’s not a movie version.

Thomas More is not reducible to his role in persecuting Protestants, nor is he reducible to the defense of his own conscience against Henry. To reduce him in either direction is to manipulate facts. That’s my only point. Thanks.

282 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:49:54pm
283 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:50:02pm

re: #257 godfrey

And your point is what? That the name “Thomas More” taints everything, that he was a maniacal heretic burner, and that Catholics cannot, on principle, be trusted with anything? That would be ridiculous.

Since when did Thomas More morph into all Catholics, and legitimate criticisms of one man’s undeniably execrable and odious actions morph into a condemnation of every adherent who shares his religious faith?

The baseless canard that the two are equivalent is what is TRULY ridiculous.

284 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:50:04pm

re: #269 ArchangelMichael

I guess I should show this to them the next time some asshat tries to call me a lefty.

Economic Left Right: 6.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.15

I got:

Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.56

285 Idle Drifter  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:50:15pm

re: #234 holycrusader

Aren’t you a prize.

286 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:51:02pm

re: #280 Occasional Reader

Doesn’t that smack a bit of “the George Washington University named themselves after a slaveowner!”?

did GW burn and torture his slaves?…moral relevance?

287 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:51:04pm

re: #280 Occasional Reader

Doesn’t that smack a bit of “the George Washington University named themselves after a slaveowner!”?

(Addendum: I know nothing of the Thomas More Law Center or their agenda, just saying that More is less known for burning heretics than for his stand against Henry VIII.)

288 Syrah  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:51:09pm

re: #250 Sharmuta

I rarely get sick and rarely stay sick long when I am.

Thanks for the concern.

I am looking forward to beating this. I forgot how much I hate the shakes and aches.

289 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:51:10pm

It’s a special treat to get email from someone who writes, “Remove my account immediately! You suck and I hate you!”

And they don’t tell you the username on their account. Oh well. I guess I’ll just have to wait for the meltdown and dramatic farewell comment.

290 Nevergiveup  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:52:03pm

CAN Israel still call the United States its best international friend? Apparently not, if you believe the tone of the local media.

Watching the drama unfold inside Israel, the increasingly tense dialogue between US President Barack Obama and new Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is taking on all the trappings of a duel.

Almost every day brings news of another sore point between the two countries, a source of yet further inflammation of their once warm relations.

[Link: www.theage.com.au…]

I hope all my Liberal Jewish friends and relatives are happy now? Can ya feel the love yet?

291 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:52:07pm

re: #286 albusteve

did GW burn and torture his slaves?…moral relevance?

Um, no, you’re missing the point.

292 LGoPs  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:52:12pm

re: #289 Charles

It’s a special treat to get email from someone who writes, “Remove my account immediately! You suck and I hate you!”

And they don’t tell you the username on their account. Oh well. I guess I’ll just have to wait for the meltdown and dramatic farewell comment.

I don’t mean to laugh but that’s funny. Passionate ineptitude……..

293 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:52:18pm

re: #285 Idle Drifter

Aren’t you a prize.

Indeed.

Who would pick a nic like that?

294 HoosierHoops  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:52:22pm

re: #289 Charles

It’s a special treat to get email from someone who writes, “Remove my account immediately! You suck and I hate you!”

And they don’t tell you the username on their account. Oh well. I guess I’ll just have to wait for the meltdown and dramatic farewell comment.

How is the move going Charles? Hope today finds you well..

295 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:52:25pm

re: #285 Idle Drifter

Aren’t you a prize.

And he won it too!

296 godfrey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:52:41pm

re: #268 Charles

It’s possible, you know, that they took the name because More refused to abandon his Church under duress. Hence their casting themselves as a Christian version of the ACLU.

I think that’s More likely.

297 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:53:01pm

re: #289 Charles

It’s a special treat to get email from someone who writes, “Remove my account immediately! You suck and I hate you!”

And they don’t tell you the username on their account. Oh well. I guess I’ll just have to wait for the meltdown and dramatic farewell comment.

LOL!
Thanks for sharing that!

298 Nevergiveup  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:53:12pm

re: #289 Charles

It’s a special treat to get email from someone who writes, “Remove my account immediately! You suck and I hate you!”

And they don’t tell you the username on their account. Oh well. I guess I’ll just have to wait for the meltdown and dramatic farewell comment.

Glenn Beck been writing you again?

299 Palandine  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:53:23pm

re: #276 Sharmuta

You should check out A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell.

Thanks! I like Thomas Sowell, but haven’t heard of that. I’ll put it on the list—dreadfully behind right now. Reading “The Forgotten Man,” by Amity Shlaes, and finding it really interesting…

300 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:53:43pm

re: #289 Charles

It’s a special treat to get email from someone who writes, “Remove my account immediately! You suck and I hate you!”

Give my account tenure and I love you.

/is my check in the mail?

301 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:53:48pm

re: #288 Syrah

I’m sorry, Dear. I have to get going shortly though as the requested meeting I sought earlier in the week is waiting. I’ll be back later, but if I don’t see you, I’ll have the new spinoff up anyways. {Syrah}

302 Idle Drifter  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:54:14pm

re: #293 Pvt Bin Jammin

Indeed.

Who would pick a nic like that?

A moby.

303 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:54:22pm

re: #291 Occasional Reader

Um, no, you’re missing the point.

how so?

304 SixDegrees  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:54:27pm

re: #263 Spar Kling

There are plenty of nut jobs on the political and religious extremes. Most of them simply stew in their own juices. That’s this idiot had dangerous substances probably made him feel conspiratorial and powerful. But there doesn’t seem to have been any evidence of a delivery mechanism. What was he going to do? Throw a jar of lithium immersed in oil at a politician? Light a magnesium strip and put it in a politician’s shoe? Put iron (II) oxide in someone’s sandwich?

But this kind of stuff provides bureaucratic agencies political ammunition. That the information was kept for release for a politically opportune moment is proof.

-sk

Uh - it was released when it occurred, which was last year.

And he was planning to use the materials to construct a dirty bomb. The news article provides lots of detail on this point. For why this is bad, you can read several posts, above, on the topic, or just give it two to three seconds of shallow thought.

305 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:54:34pm

re: #289 Charles

It’s a special treat to get email from someone who writes, “Remove my account immediately! You suck and I hate you!”

And they don’t tell you the username on their account. Oh well. I guess I’ll just have to wait for the meltdown and dramatic farewell comment.

Sounds to me like Sharmuta.

KIDDING!

306 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:54:42pm

re: #299 Palandine

A Conflict of Visions is remarkable, and will change how you view the political spectrum.

307 davinvalkri  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:54:42pm

re: #289 Charles

It’s a special treat to get email from someone who writes, “Remove my account immediately! You suck and I hate you!”

And they don’t tell you the username on their account. Oh well. I guess I’ll just have to wait for the meltdown and dramatic farewell comment.

Pfffffffft…we need humor, this thread is collapsing into infighting and messiness.

308 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:54:43pm

re: #289 Charles

It’s a special treat to get email from someone who writes, “Remove my account immediately! You suck and I hate you!”

And they don’t tell you the username on their account. Oh well. I guess I’ll just have to wait for the meltdown and dramatic farewell comment.

It wasn’t me.

309 Nevergiveup  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:54:53pm

re: #300 IslandLibertarian

Give my account tenure and I love you.

/is my check in the mail?

I tried that sucking up thing—even sent him some of those roller things you use when ya move. No check.

310 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:54:58pm

re: #296 godfrey

It’s possible, you know, that they took the name because More refused to abandon his Church under duress. Hence their casting themselves as a Christian version of the ACLU.

I think that’s More likely.

He continued to go Thomas.

311 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:55:01pm

re: #305 Occasional Reader

LOL

312 Irish Rose  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:55:09pm

re: #249 Sharmuta

That’s a misogynistic assumption to make. Blaming the woman for being a victim of an abusive, rapist nazi?! Fuck you.

I second that fuck you.

re: #252 Charles

That’s enough. Get off my website.

Thank you.

Some days I honestly feel like the entire civilized world has gone right off the rails and completely effing mad.

313 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:55:11pm

re: #279 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*apprehensive*

MWAH!

ALWAYS!

314 axegrinder  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:55:20pm

re: #282 Iron Fist

All bunkers should contain several months supply of ciproxin, garlic pills and that stuff that saturates your thyroid with iodide to keep it from absorbing radioactive iodine. 9 out of 10 troofers agree/

315 Jack Burton  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:55:33pm

re: #284 Gus 802

I got:

Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.56

I think alot of the economic questions in that are worded badly so I answered them based on what I thought they were trying to say but werent doing a good job. Seems like everything was “Its ok for the Corporations to screw people by sitting in their corporation buildings and being all corporationy?”

I did some reading between the lines.

316 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:55:33pm

re: #308 Ringo the Gringo

sure it wasn’t. ;)

317 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:55:34pm

re: #309 Nevergiveup

I tried that sucking up thing—even sent him some of those roller things you use when ya move. No check.

try those “rolled” things………..

318 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:55:35pm

re: #296 godfrey

It’s possible, you know, that they took the name because More refused to abandon his Church under duress. Hence their casting themselves as a Christian version of the ACLU.

I think that’s More likely.

Sure, that’s possible. But this is the group that’s notorious for defending creationists in the Dover trial, and losing big time. I suggest reading one of the books about the trial for some context on just how dishonest they are.

319 Nevergiveup  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:55:52pm

re: #312 Irish Rose

Thank you.

Some days I honestly feel like the entire civilized world has gone right off the rails and completely effing mad.

So I see you saw he pic of Obama and Hugo?

320 godfrey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:55:58pm

Sharm, tell me you’re having success putting the local politicos into better shape.

321 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:56:00pm

re: #303 albusteve

how so?

I am objecting to the idea that Thomas More is mostly “known” for burning heretics, just as Washington’s greatest claim to fame in our culture is not for owning slaves.

The treatment by Washington of his slaves is irrelevant to the analogy.

322 davinvalkri  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:56:33pm

re: #312 Irish Rose

Thank you.

Some days I honestly feel like the entire civilized world has gone right off the rails and completely effing mad.

I hear ya. Not even LGF is completely immune to the madness, though God knows it’s hit a lot worse on other sites.

323 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:56:40pm

re: #313 goddessoftheclassroom

ALWAYS!

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
{goddess}
MWAH!

324 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:56:54pm

re: #302 Idle Drifter

A moby.

No doubt. I had never noticed him/her post before.

325 Mich-again  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:57:04pm
James G. Cummings, who police say was shot to death by his wife two months ago,

Honor Killing.

326 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:57:05pm

re: #320 godfrey

Sharm, tell me you’re having success putting the local politicos into better shape.

I won’t know until later.

327 hazzyday  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:57:25pm

re: #268 Charles

My point is that the Thomas More Law Center named themselves after a person who stood for burning and torturing heretics.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

I’m wondering if Gov Rick Perry of Texas views this as a literal interpretation of the Bible. Some reporter should ask him.

328 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:57:34pm

re: #325 Mich-again

Honor Killing.

Honorable killing.

329 godfrey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:57:43pm

re: #318 Charles

I’ll do that, thank you. As you know, I would like creationism to stay out of science class, both in parochial and public schools.

330 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:58:00pm

re: #55 Fat Jolly Penguin

So does cesium. And I’d like to know how the hell he got his hands on uranium.

IT’S THE LIBYANS!

Name that eighties movie!

331 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:58:20pm

re: #321 Occasional Reader

I am objecting to the idea that Thomas More is mostly “known” for burning heretics, just as Washington’s greatest claim to fame in our culture is not for owning slaves.

The treatment by Washington of his slaves is irrelevant to the analogy.

that’s just reducing it down…one thing happened and the other didn’t…jus sayin

332 davinvalkri  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:58:33pm

re: #330 SanFranciscoZionist

IT’S THE LIBYANS!

Name that eighties movie!

Back to the Future?

333 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:59:12pm

re: #282 Iron Fist

Not Anthrax so much (as it turns out not a particularly effective bioweapon)

I’m curious, what makes you say that?

334 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:59:17pm

re: #268 Charles

Charles, I take your point that those who named the law center are probably pretty religious folk, and somewhat intolerant of divergent views, but I would also think that they pretty fervently believe in a sanitized version of More’s biography.

335 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:59:30pm

re: #315 ArchangelMichael

I think alot of the economic questions in that are worded badly so I answered them based on what I thought they were trying to say but werent doing a good job. Seems like everything was “Its ok for the Corporations to screw people by sitting in their corporation buildings and being all corporationy?”

I did some reading between the lines.

Yeah, I found myself thinking “where’s the somewhat agree or disagree check boxes?” A lot of times I would just answer “agree” or “disagree.”

336 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:59:48pm

re: #318 Charles

Sure, that’s possible. But this is the group that’s notorious for defending creationists in the Dover trial, and losing big time. I suggest reading one of the books about the trial for some context on just how dishonest they are.

I think Monkey Girl did a good job of displaying the dishonesty of all the IDers involved.

337 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:00:13pm

re: #330 SanFranciscoZionist

IT’S THE LIBYANS!

Name that eighties movie!

Back to the Future!

338 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:00:15pm

re: #302 Idle Drifter

A moby.

Moby Nic?

339 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:00:15pm

re: #331 albusteve

that’s just reducing it down…one thing happened and the other didn’t…jus sayin

Huh?

340 Irish Rose  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:00:23pm

re: #289 Charles

It’s a special treat to get email from someone who writes, “Remove my account immediately! You suck and I hate you!”

And they don’t tell you the username on their account. Oh well. I guess I’ll just have to wait for the meltdown and dramatic farewell comment.

Won’t take long, my best guess.

341 Idle Drifter  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:00:46pm

re: #324 Pvt Bin Jammin

No doubt. I had never noticed him/her post before.

There has been a higher rate of sleeper/mobys/trolls of late.

342 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:01:10pm

re: #334 Bacchus’s daddy

Charles, I take your point that those who named the law center are probably pretty religious folk, and somewhat intolerant of divergent views, but I would also think that they pretty fervently believe in a sanitized version of More’s biography.

If I had to guess, their donors and maybe even low-level employees are probably as you say, but their upper staff knows more…

343 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:01:12pm

re: #327 hazzyday

I’m wondering if Gov Rick Perry of Texas views this as a literal interpretation of the Bible. Some reporter should ask him.

Rick’s a real treat, but AFAIK has not burned anyone at the stake.

344 SixDegrees  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:01:29pm

re: #318 Charles

Sure, that’s possible. But this is the group that’s notorious for defending creationists in the Dover trial, and losing big time. I suggest reading one of the books about the trial for some context on just how dishonest they are.

For what it’s worth, they have a very nice corporate campus in Ann Arbor, Michigan, right across the street from Domino Farms, Tom Monahan’s world headquarters. I have little doubt that Crazy Tommy provides a largish chunk of their operating revenue.

345 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:01:33pm

re: #330 SanFranciscoZionist

IT’S THE LIBYANS!

Name that eighties movie!

Oh, I’m sure in 1985 you can buy plutonium in your local convenience store, but in 1955 it’s a little hard to come by!

-quoting from memory

346 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:01:45pm
347 Bubbaman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:01:48pm

re: #245 SixDegrees

See my post, above. For a dirty bomb to be effective, all it has to do is trigger a Geiger counter. It doesn’t have to possess a dangerous amount of radioactive material, just enough to induce panic. People has an hysterical fear of ANY kind of radiation, and if any radioactive substance were released over a densely inhabited area - like Manhattan, for example - it would shut business and traffic in the area down for weeks, possibly months or even years depending on how bad the hysteria got. You’d also see lots of stress-related deaths - heart attacks, strokes and so on - even though you wouldn’t see a single case of radiation sickness.

Having participated in simulations I can tell you that if radioactivity is detected, the amounts/risks are rapidly calculated and assessed. Depending on command/control it’s questionable as to how rapidly the word would filter out to the general public. I think the relative panic would relate more to the size/scope of the event than anything else.

I agree wholeheartedly that the public has an irrational fear of radioactivity and the relative risks. This article exemplifies the inaccuracies and misconceptions which abound.

348 Benschachar  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:01:51pm

Funny thing about that, Charles, I’m sitting here looking through the talking points of the Republican party and I don’t see anything about killing all the jews.

You know, some of us in this big old blogosphere might protest the use of phrases such as “right wing” because it’s an outdated way of representing political ideology. Unless you come up with something more substantial, like a voting record, I have to say that there’s no clear evidence he’s a Republican.

349 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:02:19pm

Economic Left/Right: 5.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.15

350 jim in virginia  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:02:29pm

re: #245 SixDegrees

See my post, above. For a dirty bomb to be effective, all it has to do is trigger a Geiger counter. It doesn’t have to possess a dangerous amount of radioactive material, just enough to induce panic. People has an hysterical fear of ANY kind of radiation, and if any radioactive substance were released over a densely inhabited area - like Manhattan, for example - it would shut business and traffic in the area down for weeks, possibly months or even years depending on how bad the hysteria got. You’d also see lots of stress-related deaths - heart attacks, strokes and so on - even though you wouldn’t see a single case of radiation sickness.


I recall several years ago seeing an analysis of a potential dirty bomb attack in downtown DC. Given the prevailing winds, it predicted a plume of contaminated real estate that started out at six blocks wide and quickly narrowed to a couple hundred feet, but went fifteen miles north.
That was the extent of real, permanent damage. The psychic damage-the fear-would be immense.

351 Idle Drifter  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:03:05pm

re: #338 OldLineTexan

Moby Nic?

Its name was holycrusader, he was stating all sorts of nonsense.

352 Syrah  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:03:36pm

re: #348 Benschachar

?

353 godfrey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:03:56pm

re: #350 jim in virginia

What would Obama’s reaction to a dirty bomb strike be?

354 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:04:13pm

re: #349 Who Watches the Watchmen?

Economic Left/Right: 5.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.15

I got a 3.0 and a -2.10.

Maybe I have been associating with too many lefties. I think I saw one at a restaurant tonight, so we have been inextricably linked, like a really bad episode of LOST.

355 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:04:16pm

OMG Check out this bizarre website post in regard to Amber Cummings:

[Link: laal-hethri.blogspot.com…]

356 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:04:17pm

re: #346 pink freud

And I got:

Economic Left/Right: 8.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.72

(same spot as Friedman, I am in good company!)

Yeah, I was looking at Friedman on that graph before and though that I’m right between Gandhi and Friedman.

I’m seeing a lot of negative numbers here on the social libertarian/authoritarian scale.

357 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:04:26pm

re: #348 Benschachar

“Right-wing” doesn’t always equal “republican”.

358 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:04:28pm

re: #339 Occasional Reader

Huh?

are you saying that torture and death should be construed as equal to slave ownership?…it sounded like it

359 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:04:35pm

re: #353 godfrey

What would Obama’s reaction to a dirty bomb strike be?

Get another puppy!

360 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:04:40pm

re: #348 Benschachar

Funny thing about that, Charles, I’m sitting here looking through the talking points of the Republican party and I don’t see anything about killing all the jews.

You know, some of us in this big old blogosphere might protest the use of phrases such as “right wing” because it’s an outdated way of representing political ideology. Unless you come up with something more substantial, like a voting record, I have to say that there’s no clear evidence he’s a Republican.

I’d say the evidence is that he loudly ranted about how the Republicans are race traitors and neo cons who’ve been bought by the Jews. He probably hated the Republicans more than the Democrats; after all, he reasons, the Democrats are acting according to the wishes of the blacks and the hispanics, why can’t he have such a party for whites.

/channeling the late Sam Francis

361 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:04:42pm

re: #351 Idle Drifter

Its name was holycrusader, he was stating all sorts of nonsense.

Moby Nic -> Moby Dick

/it’s a joke, son

362 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:04:46pm

re: #348 Benschachar

Funny thing about that, Charles, I’m sitting here looking through the talking points of the Republican party and I don’t see anything about killing all the jews.

You know, some of us in this big old blogosphere might protest the use of phrases such as “right wing” because it’s an outdated way of representing political ideology. Unless you come up with something more substantial, like a voting record, I have to say that there’s no clear evidence he’s a Republican.

William F. Buckley, to his enduring credit, spent much time and effort rooting the antisemitic Birchers out of the conservative movement. Unfortunately, their current crypto-Paulian incarnation is relentlessly endeavoring to worm its way back in.

363 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:05:07pm

Now I need to shower.

364 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:05:14pm

re: #357 Sharmuta

“Right-wing” doesn’t always equal “republican”.

Shhhh! No one wants to hear that.

365 Buster Bunny  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:05:24pm

re: #353 godfrey

What would Obama’s reaction to a dirty bomb strike be?

Maple Syrup on the waffles.

366 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:05:27pm

re: #342 Zimriel

If I had to guess, their donors and maybe even low-level employees are probably as you say, but their upper staff knows more…

I certainly hear your point. But I know some fairly religious folk myself (am actually related to a couple), and they believe fervently in their orthodoxy, and any inconvenient (damaging or unflattering) facts about their heroes/saints, they chalk up to deliberate misinformation by non-believers or those of other faiths.

367 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:05:34pm

Two meltdowns at the end of the Washington Times thread.

That brings today’s total to 15.

368 esch  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:05:47pm

re: #355 Pvt Bin Jammin

OMG Check out this bizarre website post in regard to Amber Cummings:

[Link: laal-hethri.blogspot.com…]

Reading one paragraph of that gave me brain damage.

369 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:05:53pm

re: #364 OldLineTexan

Shhhh! No one wants to hear that.

the MSM is my dire enemy

370 hazzyday  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:06:13pm

re: #321 Occasional Reader

I am objecting to the idea that Thomas More is mostly “known” for burning heretics, just as Washington’s greatest claim to fame in our culture is not for owning slaves.

The treatment by Washington of his slaves is irrelevant to the analogy.

There is the viewpoint that everyone in the past had blood on their hands due to the nature of civilization which has since advanced a little bit. Very few rose above it. Also, though torture of people is something I would think that would twist a person pretty seriously. One would have to judge carefully what tradition that person hands down to us. There might be something better out there.

In Macchu Picchu, there is an altar with a channel that goes down the mountain. This is used to channel the blood from the human sacrifices they would do as part of their religion.

Often times it’s best to take an essence of a past situation and move it forward discarding the violent shell. Find a way to make the crops grow without killing someone. Build an appetite for traditions that are healthy for people. Religions evolve.

371 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:06:14pm

re: #358 albusteve

are you saying that torture and death should be construed as equal to slave ownership?…it sounded like it

Again, you’ve missed the point. Please read my post #321 again.

372 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:06:41pm

re: #368 esch

LOL I am still not sure what it was all about.

373 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:06:45pm

re: #347 Bubbaman

Having participated in simulations I can tell you that if radioactivity is detected, the amounts/risks are rapidly calculated and assessed. Depending on command/control it’s questionable as to how rapidly the word would filter out to the general public. I think the relative panic would relate more to the size/scope of the event than anything else.

I agree wholeheartedly that the public has an irrational fear of radioactivity and the relative risks. This article exemplifies the inaccuracies and misconceptions which abound.

(1) “depending on command/control” — valid point

(2) “panic would relate more to…” — IF, by chance, preliminary word got out to the media, the media would determine the “size/scope”.

/in other words, potential shit city

374 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:07:05pm

re: #366 Bacchus’s daddy

I certainly hear your point. But I know some fairly religious folk myself (am actually related to a couple), and they believe fervently in their orthodoxy, and any inconvenient (damaging or unflattering) facts about their heroes/saints, they chalk up to deliberate misinformation by non-believers or those of other faiths.

Denial ain’t just a river in Jordan.

/

375 godfrey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:07:10pm

Up early tomorrow, cheers to all.

376 Catttt  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:07:23pm
377 SixDegrees  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:07:38pm

re: #347 Bubbaman

Having participated in simulations I can tell you that if radioactivity is detected, the amounts/risks are rapidly calculated and assessed. Depending on command/control it’s questionable as to how rapidly the word would filter out to the general public. I think the relative panic would relate more to the size/scope of the event than anything else.

I agree wholeheartedly that the public has an irrational fear of radioactivity and the relative risks. This article exemplifies the inaccuracies and misconceptions which abound.

It seems to me that any attempts to control such information would backfire badly. Once word got out that there had been a radiation release - and that it had been covered up - the panic would be even worse than if it were simply acknowledged immediately, although even that would lead to all kinds of hysteria.

Education, before any such event ever takes place, would be the most appropriate approach. I don’t see that happening any time soon, though.

378 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:07:41pm

I think assuming “right-wing” equals “republican” is part of the problem here. Not all right-wingers are in the GOP. I would think stating something this obvious wouldn’t be necessary, but a couple comments seem to indicate otherwise.

379 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:07:47pm

re: #374 Salamantis

Denial ain’t just a river in Jordan.

/

Jordan?

380 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:08:19pm

re: #376 Catttt

OT

Stalker kitteh

That’s going to give me nightmares!

381 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:08:19pm

re: #371 Occasional Reader

Again, you’ve missed the point. Please read my post #321 again.

382 axegrinder  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:08:21pm

re: #353 godfrey

We’d have to wait a few days for someone to tell him what his reaction should be.

383 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:08:26pm

Late, gang. Save some troll buttocks for me!

384 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:08:35pm

re: #355 Pvt Bin Jammin

OMG Check out this bizarre website post in regard to Amber Cummings:

[Link: laal-hethri.blogspot.com…]

Whoever wrote that was m*sturbating.

385 hazzyday  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:08:52pm

re: #343 OldLineTexan

Rick’s a real treat, but AFAIK has not burned anyone at the stake.

Agreed, a modern person is most probably a nice person. But I would ask the literalists where they draw the line on their literal Bible interpretations. I suspect there would be many different answers.

386 Catttt  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:08:56pm

re: #378 Sharmuta

I think assuming “right-wing” equals “republican” is part of the problem here. Not all right-wingers are in the GOP. I would think stating something this obvious wouldn’t be necessary, but a couple comments seem to indicate otherwise.

I personally am not in a wing. I am more in the gizzard. /

387 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:09:01pm

Poor Belfast. I know it well.

But then few people realize what a happy hunting ground Maine is for whackos of various stripes. Most think of Montana or the Pacific Northwest when it comes to certain types. But let me assure you that in the trackless backwoods of Maine, there are more than a few camps with buried semi trailers containing all kinds of things you wouldn’t want your neighbors to know about.

I have this on very, very good authority.

388 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:09:10pm

re: #348 Benschachar

And with that, I bid you adieu.

389 axegrinder  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:09:10pm

re: #379 OldLineTexan

Egypt I think he meant.

390 kochsr  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:09:28pm

Saying that this story justifies the DNS memo seems a bit of a stretch. Here’s what John at Powerline had to say:

“Its strongest warning was against the possibility of veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan turning to violent, right-wing extremism, but veterans have been returning from Afghanistan since 2002 and from Iraq since 2003. An investigation of the circumstances under which this report was written and disseminated appears to be in order.”

I completely agree.

391 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:09:29pm

re: #353 godfrey

invite it to tea for dialogue?

392 Bobblehead  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:09:36pm

re: #217 godfrey

I neither can, nor desire, to make any defense of burning heretics. Tudor England was a vicious place, and viciousness came from every side. I am deeply skeptical that St. Thomas More felt any “gleefulness” in any of the situations we all (I suspect) have no expertise in pontificating about.

What I object to is Charles’s insinuation that Thomas More is “known for” burning heretics. He is not. He is known for not capitulating to the tyranny of Henry VIII and not disowning his Catholic allegiance. It’s no secret I’m sympathetic to that, and I will make no apology for it.

I’m no scholar, but have read a good deal of Tudor history. Thomas
More. I recently read these observations by Joanna Denny in her book”Anne Boleyn”:
..but the irony is that More was intolerant of all dissident opinion. His zeal for public order verged on the fanatical.”
And…”It was said More resigned as Chancellor because he opposed the King’s new policies, but claimed in a letter to Erasmus that it was simply because he was ill. For nearly two years he had been writing tracts denouncing ‘heresy’ as “the worst crime that can be’ and praising the burning of martyrs like Tewkesbury ‘as there was never wretch I ween better worthy’.”

BTW I resent the implication that all here use Wiki for their reference.

393 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:09:42pm

re: #84 Charles

Meanwhile, Michael Savage is joining with the Thomas More Law Center (who tried and failed to defend the creationists in the Dover trial) to file suit against the Department of Homeland Security for some kind of imagined slight.

Bad craziness gets worse.

You know. Michael Savage being part of a law suit like this will only bring his own personal brand of lunacy to the forefront.

394 axegrinder  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:09:44pm

re: #383 Sharmuta

Late, gang. Save some troll buttocks for me!

You want those grilled, broiled or fried?

395 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:09:45pm

re: #381 albusteve

I see your point now….I had to think it through more thoroughly…regards

396 davinvalkri  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:09:45pm

re: #362 Salamantis

William F. Buckley, to his enduring credit, spent much time and effort rooting the antisemitic Birchers out of the conservative movement. Unfortunately, their current crypto-Paulian incarnation is relentlessly endeavoring to worm its way back in.

Why, dammit?! Why is the most popular form of public conservativism something that would make the John Birch Society happy!?

397 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:09:48pm

re: #370 hazzyday

Religions evolve.

Some religions evolve.

398 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:10:21pm

Here they come.

399 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:10:29pm

re: #370 hazzyday

In Macchu Picchu, there is an altar with a channel that goes down the mountain. This is used to channel the blood from the human sacrifices they would do as part of their religion.

Not to quibble with your larger point, but… got a source for that? I’ve been to Machu Picchu four times, and never saw that. Nor do I think they did human sacrifice routinely at that site. Sounds more Mayan or Aztec.

400 MacGregor  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:10:33pm
401 Catttt  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:10:47pm

Left and right wing is so linear, don’t you think?

I figure all the nuts are so far out there, they meet behind us.

402 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:10:47pm

re: #376 Catttt

OT

Stalker kitteh

OMG!
GODDESS … NO … DON’T BREAK THE WINDOW!

403 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:11:26pm

re: #378 Sharmuta

I think assuming “right-wing” equals “republican” is part of the problem here. Not all right-wingers are in the GOP. I would think stating something this obvious wouldn’t be necessary, but a couple comments seem to indicate otherwise.

You are working against almost two decades of Republican = Nazi, Chimpy McBushitlerhalliburtoncheney, and “right-wing gun nut” propaganda.

Nobody thinks “Democrat” when an ELFer tries to kill loggers by driving metal spikes into trees. But the MSM falls over themselves making sure that everybody “knows” Nazis are “right-wingers” just one step past “Republicans”.

404 Syrah  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:11:42pm

re: #378 Sharmuta

I think assuming “right-wing” equals “republican” is part of the problem here. Not all right-wingers are in the GOP. I would think stating something this obvious wouldn’t be necessary, but a couple comments seem to indicate otherwise.

It is an unfortunate confusion that I don’t think we will ever be able to get rid of. humans like “x or y” spectrum differentiations even though they know that they really don’t work that well.

405 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:11:42pm

re: #401 Catttt

Left and right wing is so linear, don’t you think?

I figure all the nuts are so far out there, they meet behind us.

I prefer to fly inside the fuselage as opposed to the wings. //

406 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:11:55pm

re: #396 davinvalkri

Why, dammit?! Why is the most popular form of public conservativism something that would make the John Birch Society happy!?

You are unaware of the antisemitic and racist issues of the Ron Paul newsletter?

407 Catttt  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:12:42pm

re: #400 MacGregor

Another stalker kitteh

Man. That poor kitteh was really bummed out!

408 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:12:45pm

re: #385 hazzyday

Agreed, a modern person is most probably a nice person. But I would ask the literalists where they draw the line on their literal Bible interpretations. I suspect there would be many different answers.

Try an experiment, I guarantee hilarity.

Pick a doctrinal point of Christianity. Almost anything. Find five Baptists. I will guarantee you seven opinions.

/

409 Bobblehead  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:12:48pm

re: #398 Charles

Here they come.

Batten down the hatches. Thar she blows.

410 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:13:27pm

re: #398 Charles

Here they come.

Walkin’ down the street?

/hey hey?

411 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:13:34pm

re: #402 pre-Boomer Marine brat

OMG!
GODDESS … NO … DON’T BREAK THE WINDOW!

THE “MEOW” IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!

412 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:13:48pm

re: #398 Charles
Who?

413 Catttt  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:13:53pm

I feel like there is a sock puppet bug light in the window. :D

414 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:13:56pm

re: #410 OldLineTexan

Walkin’ down the street?

/hey hey?

MY GRANDFATHER WAS NOT A MONKEE!

415 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:14:11pm

re: #410 OldLineTexan

Walkin’ down the street?

/hey hey?

Do wah ditty ditty ditty dum de dah dum

416 MacGregor  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:14:14pm

re: #407 Catttt

Man. That poor kitteh was really bummed out!

Kitteh melt down.

417 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:14:17pm

re: #409 Bobblehead

Batten down the hatches. Thar she blows.

Muskets and canon balls at the ready!

418 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:14:48pm

re: #414 Occasional Reader
Mine neither, he preferred the Grand ‘Ol Opry. :)

419 jim in virginia  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:14:50pm

re: #282 Iron Fist

The one I really worry about is biologicals. Not Anthrax so much (as it turns out not a particularly effective bioweapon) as smallpox. That would really be a man-made “natural” disaster. If the shit got out into the general population, it could pretty much wipe out all of sub-sarahan Africa.


Anthrax is a very effective terror weapon. It frightened a lot more people than it killed.

420 davinvalkri  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:14:52pm

re: #406 Salamantis

You are unaware of the antisemitic and racist issues of the Ron Paul newsletter?

No I’m not unaware. I’m just wonder WTF is happening on the Ron Paul side of things!

421 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:15:10pm

re: #414 Occasional Reader

MY GRANDFATHER WAS NOT A MONKEE!

spacejeebus?

/

422 hazzyday  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:15:27pm

re: #390 kochsr

Saying that this story justifies the DNS memo seems a bit of a stretch. Here’s what John at Powerline had to say:

“Its strongest warning was against the possibility of veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan turning to violent, right-wing extremism, but veterans have been returning from Afghanistan since 2002 and from Iraq since 2003. An investigation of the circumstances under which this report was written and disseminated appears to be in order.”

I completely agree.

Was that the reports strongest warning? I still have to re read it. I think not. I would suggest John at Powerline is expressing some cognitive dissonance that makes him interpet words slanted to his politics. I’ll re read this tonight. LGF threads made me burn my lunch, and now I’ve burnt my dinner. Or maybe my oven doesn’t like Red Baron pizza.

423 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:15:40pm

re: #373 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I work at a site where we have a simulator that tells us where the “cloud” would go should we have an unfortunate release of something. It’s kind of fun to play with and model different events. I had a point, really I did, but it’s left me. So. How’s the weather?

424 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:15:44pm

re: #413 Catttt

I feel like there is a sock puppet bug light in the window. :D

I’ll set my “bug zapper” up just beyond the light. LOL

425 Syrah  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:15:50pm

re: #394 axegrinder

You want those grilled, broiled or fried?

If we do all three, we can call it “Troll Carnitas”.

426 Dustyvet  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:15:53pm

re: #402 pre-Boomer Marine brat

OMG!
GODDESS … NO … DON’T BREAK THE WINDOW!

Image: kittens.jpg

427 Catttt  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:15:55pm
428 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:16:06pm

Microsoft tired of waiting

Microsoft, disappointed by the low adoption rate for the company’s latest iteration of its Internet Explorer web browser, will from next week begin pushing the software to computer users through the Windows automatic update feature.

The target in the drive to expand use of Internet Explorer 8 (IE8) is the more than 90% of the IE user base still on versions six and seven. According to research firm Net Applications, IE8’s share of the IE market has reached 4.36% but overall IE share dropped to 60.90% this month.

/consider yourself warned

429 jim in virginia  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:16:18pm

re: #353 godfrey

What would Obama’s reaction to a dirty bomb strike be?


C’mon, that’s obvious. He’d apologize.

430 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:16:18pm

I’m tempted to open registration.

431 Catttt  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:17:06pm

re: #430 Charles

I’m tempted to open registration.

God, but I love the heck out of you, Charles.

432 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:17:13pm
433 Bubbaman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:17:28pm

re: #282 Iron Fist

The one I really worry about is biologicals. Not Anthrax so much (as it turns out not a particularly effective bioweapon) as smallpox. That would really be a man-made “natural” disaster. If the shit got out into the general population, it could pretty much wipe out all of sub-sarahan Africa.

Whether intentional or a random jump, viruses are indeed a serious threat. A few years ago, some agencies looked at the smallpox threat and unfortunately, most doctors were unable to correctly identify it. Some attempts were made to educate first responders and a pilot study was launched to re-vaccinate with very dilute vaccines. Unfortunately, the program was quickly abandoned. Nonetheless, contingencies are in place to rapidly vaccinate first responders, military, doctors/nurses, etc.

Personally, I worry more about SARS or Influenza variants. Sure, there are rogue regimes out there trying to militarize Ebola and other viruses, but the former are more worrisome. We’re overdue for a pandemic and with all of those folks who live in China/S.E. Asia amongst pigs/birds (which are the vectors) it’s only a matter of time before a nasty variant breaks out.

Imagine a scenario where the kids bring Grandma Liu over on the plane and she is infected with a new variant SARS that is highly infectious, easily transmissible, and with a high morbidity? Last year, for example all of the Influenza in the U.S. was resistant to the common anti-virals. It could be bad. Very bad.

434 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:17:28pm

re: #430 Charles

I’m tempted to open registration.

So your shoulder demon … pitchfork and red union suit, or more of a Geico lizard with glowing red eyes?

/

435 davinvalkri  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:17:29pm

re: #430 Charles

I’m tempted to open registration.

Eh? After all the meltdowns and craziness? You said you had to hit fifteen posters with the ban stick!

436 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:17:42pm

re: #430 Charles

I’m tempted to open registration.

you gotta scratch an itch

437 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:17:48pm

re: #428 Killian Bundy

Microsoft tired of waiting

/consider yourself warned

Eek. I always do that manually. I already use MSIE 7 and the “buttons” are all in t wrong place. I use Safari here. MSIE 8 looks like major bloatware.

438 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:17:58pm

re: #430 Charles
Oh boy! Mwahahaha!

439 HoosierHoops  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:18:00pm

re: #398 Charles

Here they come.

Here we come, walkin’
Down the street.
We get the funniest looks from
Ev’ry Lizard we meet.
Hey, hey, we’re the Monkees
And people say we monkey around.
But we’re too busy evolving
To put anybody down.

440 Catttt  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:18:10pm

OMG. I have this crazy yen to link a Britney Spears video.

441 summergurl  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:18:13pm

re: #430 Charles

I’m tempted to open registration.

Dealing with a not so fun move and now taking on open registration? You been drinking that Chardonnay again?

442 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:18:33pm

re: #430 Charles

I’m tempted to open registration.

Lemme check my fridge for storage room. I anticipate more trolls and mobys that we could comfortably feast upon in a single sitting.

443 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:18:49pm

re: #132 Buster Bunny

I would care to remind you that without the insane Henry 8th there would have been no aperture for dissent from the Britons. As it is .. they established their own faith and truly separated themselves from the mainland.

If it werent for ‘enry the eightth … we’d all be speaking Latin now and be heartily Roman Catholic.

A terrible fate, to be sure.

/

444 Bacchus's daddy  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:18:57pm

re: #374 Salamantis

Denial ain’t just a river in Jordan.

/

Believe me, it’s not easy trying to keep quiet when your elderly mother is a delusional religious fanatic, especially when she starts writing letters of admonishment to bishops about their incorrect interpretation of doctrine. Nevertheless, I love my mother and refrain from expressing my agnostic/atheist views.

445 jim in virginia  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:19:03pm

re: #357 Sharmuta

“Right-wing” doesn’t always equal “republican”.

Are non right wing Republicans RINOs?

446 Opilio  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:19:04pm

re: #428 Killian Bundy

Microsoft tired of waiting


/consider yourself warned

They must be hatin’ on me. I still use IE6 from some computers.

447 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:19:12pm

here it is


448 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:19:18pm

re: #440 Catttt
NO! A thousand times NO! Think of the children!

449 axegrinder  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:19:55pm

re: #425 Syrah

If we do all three, we can call it “Troll Carnitas”.

Yum, yum. Pass the ketchup.

450 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:19:55pm

re: #430 Charles

The emails from mysterious strangers aren’t enough for you this evening? What a man!

451 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:20:02pm

re: #423 ArmyWife

I work at a site where we have a simulator that tells us where the “cloud” would go should we have an unfortunate release of something. It’s kind of fun to play with and model different events. I had a point, really I did, but it’s left me. So. How’s the weather?

Last night: Since I was out of grapes, I left a strawberry in the feeder with the peanuts last night for my hand-raised but now set-free squirrel.

This morning: He’d carried it 30 feet from the feeder to the back patio door to return it to me.

Weather’s fine. :-)

452 Wendya  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:20:04pm

re: #4 monkeytime

He was a hard right socialist? He really was a nut job.

That type of movement shouldn’t be classified as right or left.
Crazies are their very own category whether they vote for republicans or democrats. Look at the Jew hatred on the left and tell me that’s right wing. For one thing, they don’t give a flying leap about social spending unless the recipients are the wrong color. You’re likely to find many of them drawing welfare. What they are is insecure, twisted haters. The lie that they are “conservative” has gone on long enough. They are no more conservative than anarchists.

453 Mich-again  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:20:07pm

Right wing nutjobs keep radioactive waste in their homes just in case someday they want to build a bomb and kill a bunch of fillintheblanks.

Left wing nutjobs go low budget and just put on ski masks and spray bleach water into the faces of their political enemies. The violent protests that happened in St. Paul last Summer at the GOP Convention were plotted and coordinated on Twitter and in Indymedia threads. They threw bags of concrete from overpasses onto buses. These people were treated as criminals, not domestic terrorists. Why not?

454 CynicalConservative  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:20:10pm

re: #440 Catttt

OMG. I have this crazy yen to link a Britney Spears video.

Not Brit, but worth a try. Not sure of his politics so purely for fun…King Tut

455 Catttt  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:20:15pm

re: #439 HoosierHoops

Here we come, walkin’
Down the street.
We get the funniest looks from
Ev’ry Lizard we meet.
Hey, hey, we’re the Monkees
And people say we monkey around.
But we’re too busy evolving
To put anybody down.

I was in love with Davy Jones. It’s hard for me to believe it now.

456 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:20:16pm

re: #335 Gus 802

Yeah, I found myself thinking “where’s the somewhat agree or disagree check boxes?” A lot of times I would just answer “agree” or “disagree.”

I kept wishing for a ‘meh’ option. Or a ‘well, that’s a dumb question’ option.

457 Bobblehead  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:20:18pm

re: #430 Charles

I’m tempted to open registration.


Moving is really getting to you, isn’t it?

458 jim in virginia  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:20:28pm

re: #430 Charles

I’m tempted to open registration.


Do it, please. We need fresh gamey troll buttocks.
Charles, you must be done moving, you have way too much spare time.

459 summergurl  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:20:32pm

Open reg will surely entice the Beckers to come out…

Here Kitty kitty kitty……

460 Idle Drifter  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:20:59pm

Economic Left/Right: 6.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.21

461 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:21:11pm

re: #430 Charles

I’m tempted to open registration.

Charles be feelin’ froggy!

;~)

462 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:21:24pm

For all the boomers here, Bobby Vinton was 74 today.

463 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:21:28pm

Good night, Lizards.

464 ArmyWife  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:21:29pm

re: #451 pink freud

awww! That’s so much nicer than what my cat brings me!

465 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:22:01pm

re: #463 goddessoftheclassroom
Good night!

466 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:22:23pm

And awaaaay we go!

467 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:22:24pm

re: #463 goddessoftheclassroom

Sweet dreams.

468 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:22:24pm

re: #456 SanFranciscoZionist

I kept wishing for a ‘meh’ option. Or a ‘well, that’s a dumb question’ option.

Right. Wasn’t many questions regarding the military. Of course it’s just a quick online test. Something like that to be really accurate would probably require a battery of tests.

469 hazzyday  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:22:32pm

re: #399 Occasional Reader

Not to quibble with your larger point, but… got a source for that? I’ve been to Machu Picchu four times, and never saw that. Nor do I think they did human sacrifice routinely at that site. Sounds more Mayan or Aztec.

Been there twice. Seen it. Was with the local Peruvians. It’s a shelter at the center just above the terraced fields. I didn’t believe there was human sacrifice there either, but I was told differently. But it was a Peruvian person not a news source.

This is the best i could find. on short notice.

470 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:22:35pm

Battle stations!

471 summergurl  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:22:39pm

Oh my —-here they come!

472 jim in virginia  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:22:50pm

re: #440 Catttt

OMG. I have this crazy yen to link a Britney Spears video.

So it shall be written. So it shall be done.

473 sleepyone  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:22:50pm

re: #94 Emerald

The PDF file indicates it’s depleted uranium in containers from an American company. The only uses I know of for depleted uranium are military; wonder if he got it from a government contractor providing ammo or armor. If so, I’m not too thrilled at the lack of inventory control.

re: #430 Charles

I’m tempted to open registration.

Whatever you do, please keep starting threads like the last 7 or 8. I’m having difficulty recalling a more simultaneously entertaining and informative time reading LGF. I find that I have to force myself away from the monitor to get any work done!

474 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:22:53pm

re: #423 ArmyWife

I work at a site where we have a simulator that tells us where the “cloud” would go should we have an unfortunate release of something. It’s kind of fun to play with and model different events. I had a point, really I did, but it’s left me. So. How’s the weather?

Weather?
The weather’s fine.

*thinking* …
(wait, she’s talkin’ ‘bout clouds an’ stuff … what’s she up to? …
… OMG! … she’s workin’ at that simulator! … ACK!)
*runs out and looks up at the sky*

/conspiracy paranoia strikes again … :D

475 albusteve  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:23:01pm

Bobby V


476 brennk2  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:23:14pm

re: #453 Mich-again

Well here in the Twin Cities we are lucky when the court systems treat criminals like criminals. Know what I’m saying?

477 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:23:22pm

re: #463 goddessoftheclassroom

Good night, Lizards.

MWAH!

478 Bubblehead II  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:23:26pm

re: #367 Charles

Evening all. Just out of morbid curiosity Charles, What is the record and topic?

479 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:23:31pm

re: #432 Iron Fist

We had the anthrax right after 9-11. As a weapon of mass destruction it was singularly inneffective

Yes. But. It was not deployed in a way - not even remotely so - to maximize lethality. That’s why right from the beginning, I doubted it was al Qaeda. Had they gotten ahold of that stuff, they’d have tried to drop it into the ventilation system for Grand Central Station or something like that; not mailed it to people in envelopes politely explaining that they should start taking Cipro.

480 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:23:36pm

re: #139 calcajun

He was Lord Chancellor—basically the AG to Henry VIII—when he persecuted Protestants—some for only passing out an English version of the New Testament.

The sixteenth century was officially horrific.

481 Idle Drifter  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:23:36pm

re: #409 Bobblehead

Batten down the hatches. Thar she blows.

Man the harpoons.

482 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:23:42pm

re: #439 HoosierHoops

Here we come, walkin’
Down the street.
We get the funniest looks from
Ev’ry Lizard we meet.
Hey, hey, we’re the Monkees
And people say we monkey around.
But we’re too busy evolving
To put anybody down.

My fave Monkees tune was Last Train to Clarksville

/oh, the shame of it all!

483 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:23:55pm

re: #471 summergurl

Oh my —-here they come!

They took er jobs!

484 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:24:15pm
485 OldLineTexan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:24:51pm

Oh, he went and done it.

486 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:24:59pm

re: #472 jim in virginia
Do not link Ramses to Brittany Spears. Plagues will surely follow!

487 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:25:02pm

re: #453 Mich-again

Right wing nutjobs keep radioactive waste in their homes just in case someday they want to build a bomb and kill a bunch of fillintheblanks.

Left wing nutjobs go low budget and just put on ski masks and spray bleach water into the faces of their political enemies. The violent protests that happened in St. Paul last Summer at the GOP Convention were plotted and coordinated on Twitter and in Indymedia threads. They threw bags of concrete from overpasses onto buses. These people were treated as criminals, not domestic terrorists. Why not?

Because in our current political climate, left-wing terrorists have their hearts in the right place. Even if they get indicted, they can go on the lam and/or get a free pass to Club Fed; when the statute of limitations is up, the more articulate of them then pick up teaching gigs. Look at Ayers.

It reminds me of how (in GCSE History) the Weimar Republic used to treat the fascists with kid gloves while hammering leftist demonstrators.

488 Jimash  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:25:04pm

I don’t see that this story interesting and disturbing as it is shows
a justification for the DHS report. I also thought it leaned pretty heavily on veterans and weasled that many NEo-NAzis were in the Armed Forced training by doing war.
If they are so aware of this then maybe they could weed those guys out.
Meantime, nothing in it would have caught or pointed to this guy unless he actually joined the N. S> organization and told someone of his plan, and some lawperson managed to hear of it.
IS it that somebody thinks that we think that these people don’t exist or aren’t dangerous ?
That would be absurd.
Do we want them suppressed? Yes.
But the dance of ideological purity might be getting tooo twisted to learn the steps at this point.

489 Bubbaman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:25:28pm

Interesting discussion, but I’ve got to get some sleep; busy day tomorrow. Supposedly, the German scientist Friedrich August Kekulé resolved the structure of the Benzene ring in his sleep when he envisioned six snakes swallowing each other’s tail. Perhaps, I’ll find some inspiration tonight. Goodnight all.

490 HoosierHoops  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:25:37pm

re: #455 Catttt

I was in love with Davy Jones. It’s hard for me to believe it now.

I had a crush on the Wilson sisters. *Yes the hoopster bows his head*..I liked heart.
/don’t ding me bro!

491 Catttt  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:25:41pm

Um - OT

492 sleepyone  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:25:41pm
re: #94 Emerald

The PDF file indicates it’s depleted uranium in containers from an American company. The only uses I know of for depleted uranium are military; wonder if he got it from a government contractor providing ammo or armor. If so, I’m not too thrilled at the lack of inventory control.

re: #430 Charles

I’m tempted to open registration.

Whatever you do, please keep starting threads like the last 7 or 8. I’m having difficulty recalling a more simultaneously entertaining and informative time reading LGF. I find that I have to force myself away from the monitor to get any work done!

Sorry about the double quote in my post. I was planning on commenting on Emerald’s post but decided otherwise. It was still in my preview window or something…

duh…..

493 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:26:01pm

off to the troll wars ————————>

494 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:26:04pm

re: #484 Iron Fist
The dude sang “Blue Velvet”. I remember him when I was a kid singing on variety shows.

495 Jimash  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:26:43pm

re: #457 Bobblehead

Moving is really getting to you, isn’t it?

I know that my wife’s Kitchen/Dining Room renovation is tearing me up pretty good.

496 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:27:01pm

re: #490 HoosierHoops

I had a crush on the Wilson sisters. *Yes the hoopster bows his head*..I liked heart.
/don’t ding me bro!

I saw them at a free beach concert early in their careers.

They flashed.

They were waay hawt.

497 Bobblehead  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:27:06pm

I’m still pissed about the snide suggestion we’re all a bunch of WikiHeads. From what I’ve read (and not in any wiki source), Thomas More, The Martyr, was a creation of his hagiographers. Robert Bolt being one of them..

498 jamgarr  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:28:41pm

re: #475 albusteve


Saw Bobby V in Branson,MO

So, I got that going for me.

499 Syrah  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:28:44pm

re: #449 axegrinder

Yum, yum. Pass the ketchup.

Its very good with some pico de gallo and cilantro.

500 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:29:04pm

re: #469 hazzyday

Was with the local Peruvians.

No offense, but I heard lots of utter nonsense delivered by “local Peruvians” at more than one archeological site in Peru. (E.g., at Chavin de Huantar, where a guide tried to convince us that the “sacred number of the Chavin culture was seven, as demonstrated by the fact that the central plaza measures 49 x 49, and 49 is seven times seven!” 49… meters, that is. Slight problem with that.)

501 Wendya  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:30:35pm

re: #495 Jimash

I would rather sell the house and move than ever do another remodel.

502 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:31:51pm

re: #497 Bobblehead

I’m still pissed about the snide suggestion we’re all a bunch of WikiHeads. From what I’ve read (and not in any wiki source), Thomas More, The Martyr, was a creation of his hagiographers. Robert Bolt being one of them..

And Thomas More the torturer of heretics was a creation of Foxe. I’ve long known about the burnings and I blame him for those, but I draw the line at torturings which he didn’t do.

503 Jimash  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:32:41pm

re: #501 Wendya

I would rather sell the house and move than ever do another remodel.

These guys are slobs too, and they keep asking who did all the weird stuff.
(some drunk 30 years ago )
I’ll be happy if the house doesn’t fall in.

504 CommonCents  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:32:43pm

re: #248 IslandLibertarian

ok?

I can handle that. This life in SuperMax crap though, I think that is foolish and wasteful.

505 Wendya  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:34:07pm

re: #503 Jimash

These guys are slobs too, and they keep asking who did all the weird stuff.
(some drunk 30 years ago )
I’ll be happy if the house doesn’t fall in.

3 months in, I was wishing it would burn to the ground.

506 kynna  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:34:17pm

His poor wife. I hope she finds some peace after that ordeal. And may he find his just reward … whatever that may be.

507 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:37:34pm

re: #314 axegrinder

All bunkers should contain several months supply of ciproxin, garlic pills and that stuff that saturates your thyroid with iodide to keep it from absorbing radioactive iodine. 9 out of 10 troofers agree/

Salt?

What are the garlic pills for, to keep out vampires?

508 Jimash  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:38:30pm

It took nearly 4 months to do the bathroom.
And 5 months to do the living room/ family room ( which really was going to fall down)
I’ve considered whipping out the cameras and telling them they are on TV and have two weeks to make it beautiful or look like boobs.
And they are busting up a lot of stuff ( Doors, heating, plumbing, Getting full new electrical panel and wiring,etc.)
It sux.

509 Bobblehead  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:38:38pm

re: #502 Zimriel

And Thomas More the torturer of heretics was a creation of Foxe. I’ve long known about the burnings and I blame him for those, but I draw the line at torturings which he didn’t do.


The”media” in Tudor times was as biased in both directions as it is today. Funny thing that.

510 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:39:29pm

re: #332 davinvalkri

Back to the Future?

You win! I don’t know what you win. My computer is being wonky, so can’t even upding you.

511 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:40:19pm

re: #337 Sharmuta

Back to the Future!

And you as well!

512 LeonidasOfSparta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:45:38pm

#348 I agree with you

But wait, let me guess, the DHS has sudenly discovered that he was a Vet too…./sarc

How can we link Hitler-worshipping fanatics to right-wingers or Conservatives? LOL last time I looked there were and are alot of Hitler-worshippers in the KKK organization (who, if memory serves me, wouldn’t like Obama being voted in as president….) and that group was, for decades, predominately peopled by SOUTHERN DEMOCRATS as well as fanatics of MANY political ideologies. Who can say what “political” party the KKK backs these days (rhetorical only)

Fanatics and zealots are what they are. They taint every shore, every nation, every era, every philosophy and ideology. There aren’t more Vets who are fanatics, there aren’t more “right-wingers” who are fanatics, there aren’t more democrats who are fanatics, there aren’t more Christians OR Muslims that are fanatics than any other group of folks.

This labeling thing is a Pandora’s Box from which all the ills of mankind flow. If someone “espouses” Marxist ideology, acts upon it, legislates it and lives it, then that person is a Marxist ideologue. A person who espouses fanatic beliefs on any point of the political or religious spectrum is a fanatic and that is all. Thinking about “Animal Farm” by Orwell, it is interesting to read the “labels” that lead them all astray:

1. Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
2. Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
3. No animal shall wear clothes.
4. No animal shall sleep in a bed.
5. No animal shall drink alcohol.
6. No animal shall kill any other animal.
7. All animals are equal.

Very soon after the overthrow of Jones, Napoleon and Snowball begin to walk on two legs and wear the farmer’s clothes, drink alcohol, sleep in a bed and call for the killing of disobedient animals finally considering themselves “more equal” than the other animals.

If we label individuals (who are as unique from one another as their fingerprints) as coming from this group or that group we lose all direction. I may be registered as an Independent, Republican, Democrat, or any other political group, but when I make up my mind on a subject that impacts my voting, my liberty and my community, it is MY mind that I make up, not some “groupthink” decision.

513 Mr.Joe  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:49:39pm

Explain to me why this guy is “right wing.” Let’s assume he really is a Nazi (because it is possible the wife lied to cover up killing him for the money he inherited). Why is a Nazi right wing? Why not label everyone on the left extremists for the occasional Charlie Manson, or ELF arson attack, or some similar thing? I do not see a lot of conservatives embracing Nazis. Last time I checked, Pat Buchanan was in the wilderness (and he is not exactly a Nazi). I do see quite a few on the left tolerating former Weathermen though.

I never saw Tim McVeigh as right wing either. Sure he was libertarian, but in a completely nutburger way. He did not believe in God (so the Christianist connection does not work), he opposed the first Iraq war, his only real connection to the right wing was a obsession with gun rights, if anything McVeigh was more aligned with the murderers at Columbine than any real political movement. He was an anarchist, who wanted to be famous.

514 Duane  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 7:51:49pm

The media does love to play up the “angry white male” stereotype though. Back in the mid 90’s, The Washington Post did a series of articles about militia members in my home county in Western PA and portrayed the residents of the county as a bunch of black helicopter spotting, fall out shelter building kooks. They found the nuttiest guy in the county and built a 3 part series about him.

The media seems to gloss over bomb makers when they are from the leftist fringes, like William Ayers.

515 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:10:33pm

re: #513 Mr.Joe

Bye now. Don’t hurt yourself stepping over the doormat on the way out.

516 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:11:14pm

re: #513 Mr.Joe

One and done…

517 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:19:07pm

re: #502 Zimriel

And Thomas More the torturer of heretics was a creation of Foxe. I’ve long known about the burnings and I blame him for those, but I draw the line at torturings which he didn’t do.

Really? You’re that certain that a religious fanatic from the 16th century wasn’t a torturer? Even though he definitely did cause heretics to be burned alive?

I think the preponderance of evidence is in favor of it.

518 scrubjay  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:24:06pm

I think that the National Socialism is left wing. ‘National’ does not contradict ‘Socialism’. The government in Nazi Germany controlled the means of production.

519 Hotspur666  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:33:00pm

National-Socialists not Marxists?

Where do some get their information? Moscow?

Ernst Roehm, of Brown Shirt fame, who put Adolf Hitler in power, was
all his life a rabid Marxist-Leninist rooting for the big red night!

It was Joe Stalin main propaganda effort after the war
to hide this fact from official history.

Google “Nation of Islam” and “Aryan Brotherhood” for nice
pictures of meetings of Nazis in uniform, black AND white…
Looeee Farrakhan and muslims in general have
no problem at all with the concept of being a communist nazi!

520 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:34:25pm

Cool. So go ahead and believe this guy was a left-winger, if it makes you feel better.

521 funky chicken  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:37:03pm

Damn. Does the wife get a medal? I sure hope she hasn’t faced a jury yet.

522 Jack Bauer's Evil Brother  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:37:27pm

I think Charles makes a good point when he says that the emphasis in “national socialist” is on “national”, but I also think he doesn’t quite realize that a lot of us on the right would regard nationalism as left-wing rather than right-wing, because it is anti-individualistic, just as socialism is anti-individualistic.

523 funky chicken  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:38:14pm

One has to apply for membership to the National Socialist Movement?

524 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:39:34pm

re: #522 Jack Bauer’s Evil Brother

What part of “Cummings was very upset when Barack Obama was elected president” are you unwilling to hear?

525 funky chicken  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:41:28pm

re: #517 Charles

Really? You’re that certain that a religious fanatic from the 16th century wasn’t a torturer? Even though he definitely did cause heretics to be burned alive?

I think the preponderance of evidence is in favor of it.

I would call burning somebody alive torture, but maybe that’s just me.

526 Jack Bauer's Evil Brother  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:43:00pm

I am willing to hear it. Cummings said that because he thought race was important. I don’t. I’m willing to judge Obama as an individual.

527 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:56:04pm
528 tom from pv  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 8:56:14pm

re: #519 Hotspur666

I’m looking for some more info on the link between Nazis and right wing extremism. Something with some meat that shows how they compare.

I’m having a bit of a hard time convincing myself that an American Conservative becomes a Nazi when he goes bad. Obviously, I’m starting with the premise that conservatives are right wing and liberals are left wing — this is pretty standard, right?

What I can’t quite explain is how a right-winger who believes in the 2nd amendment, probably God, low/no taxation, small/no govt would morph into a Nazi when he gets radicalized. Nazis were big gun-grabbers, officially atheists, big taxers, and giant govt types (3rd Reich, after all). Its like the right-winger needs a brain transplant to get there. Gunning down innocents in a medical clinic, yes; but Nazi seems real difficult.

OTOH, if a liberal goes nutty, well OK, I can almost see a logical path. Liberals want guns controlled, secular society, big taxes, and a govt that covers a lot of ground. That seems far closer to what we saw in the 30s and 40s.

However, its pretty clear that every report on this dead Nazi in Maine is considered to be a right winger. Help?

529 Ben-Ami  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:02:00pm

If (God forbid) someone did explode a dirty bomb, would someone exposed to it know it at the time? Can you feel radiation - I mean, before you start showing the effects of radiation sickness?

530 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:04:26pm

re: #528 tom from pv

Liberals want guns controlled, secular society, big taxes, and a govt that covers a lot of ground.

And you still want to deny that the guy who’s the subject of this thread was more “right-wing” than “left-wing”?

It’s right there in front of you and still you deny it.

531 Jack Bauer's Evil Brother  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:09:30pm

I think I see what Charles is driving at. He wants to know how it’s possible for me to think Cummings is a left-winger if Cummings hated Obama, who is also a left-winger. But after all, didn’t Robert Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson despise each other?

532 rudytbone  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:11:03pm

The subject of this thread was a racist fascist. He hated Obama because Obama’s black. He was a National Socialist. Fascism is actually closer to Communism than it is to Socialism; with the difference being that business is in bed with the government with Fascism. The government is business with Communism. Neither of those have anything to do with conservatism or capitalism.

533 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:13:27pm

Cool! So he was a left-winger. Definitely not a right wing extremist at all. Nope. No way. Uh uh. A lefty, through and through, who collected weapons and admired Hitler. What more do you need to know?

Left-winger. Yup.

534 rudytbone  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:17:40pm

Charles, is it possible for a leftist racist to hate a black leftist President? I think yes, depending that his hate of blacks was stronger than his political beliefs. That said, I’m not necessarily calling him a leftist. National Socialism was more pro-business than Socialism or Communism, but it still was a totalitarian Big Government system. But based on the facts above, I can’t call him a right wing extremist. Extremist? Yes. Right Wing? Don’t think so. Racist? YES.

535 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:22:43pm

re: #534 rudytbone

Can you name another “leftist racist” who hated black people, joined white supremacist groups, collected weapons, and became a neo-Nazi?

I’ll wait.

536 sojerofgod  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:23:48pm

Ben-Ami:

No you cannot detect radiation with your senses, at least not in doses like you would get from radiation poisoning: The horror pics from Hiroshima were of people subjected to the blast from a bomb. In a fallout situation you just get sick and die. There is an iodine compound that is supposed to help block the radiation from attacking your thyroid but I don’t remember what the name of it is…

537 rudytbone  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:24:39pm

Well, Lee Harvey Oswald comes pretty close. I’m pleased to say no others quickly come to mind, and that’s a good thing.

538 funky chicken  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:26:42pm

re: #529 Ben-Ami

If (God forbid) someone did explode a dirty bomb, would someone exposed to it know it at the time? Can you feel radiation - I mean, before you start showing the effects of radiation sickness?

No. As a matter of fact, if you aren’t killed by the initial blast from a “dirty bomb,” and aren’t in the immediate vicinity of its explosion, you are not at much risk at all. You don’t want to be down wind (or in a super low lying area) right after the explosion, because you might get hit with enough radiation to get rad sickness, but otherwise, it’s just a true terror weapon, meaning its main effect will be to frighten lots of people.

539 sojerofgod  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:27:04pm

Potassium Iodide, I went and looked it up.

540 rudytbone  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:27:05pm

Actually, Adolph H. himself fits that description fairly well. But his version of totalitarianism was not particularly leftist. Nazi Germany was fairly pro-business as long as the business supported the government.

541 sojerofgod  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:30:56pm

Funky:

I think “frighten” is an understatement. If that went off in a population center and the people found out about it, I think ape-shittin’ crazy would be a bit more like it. Of course I suspect that our government would do their utmost to keep a lid on such an event if it did occur: The calculus would be to let hundreds or even a few thousand die rather than risk millions panic and flee the cities. There would be no place safe in CA or east of the Mississippi if that happened. Cruel as it sounds, if you were in those shoes what would you do?

542 funky chicken  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:31:41pm

re: #536 sojerofgod

potassium iodide

KI

543 funky chicken  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:36:17pm

re: #541 sojerofgod

Well, yeah. The populace would panic way, way, way beyond any reasonable assessment of an actual threat to health, and that would create massive issues.

A dirty bomb is first and foremost a bomb, and any dirty bomb big enough to cause even a thousand deaths would have to be one hell of a big bomb, so there wouldn’t be any way for the government to hide that from the population.

Radioactivity would disperse in the wind pretty quickly, and fallout wouldn’t be a serious threat, but mass hysteria would be.

544 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:37:49pm

Look, this is so silly my head hurts. If you go to Stormfront, you’ll quickly discover that the creeps who hang out there overwhelmingly self-identify as “right wing,” and have nothing but the utmost contempt for lefties. There is just no such thing as a “left wing neo-Nazi”. Trying to paint this guy as a left-winger is beyond ridiculous.

Get a grip.

545 rudytbone  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:44:56pm

I have no desire nor inclination to go to stormfront and I’m not trying to paint this creep as a leftist. I’m saying that while he was certainly a racist, I don’t think that you can automatically call him a “right wing extremist”.

546 funky chicken  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:46:38pm

re: #544 Charles

As long as respected rightie publications promote folks who supported Ron Paul (who happily took Stormfront money) the right is stuck with the association, IMHO. David Freddoso was/is a huge Paulbot, as is Derbyshire, and I believe they are still part of National Review, right?

Hell, Ron Paul won his GOP primary after the Stormfront connections and racist newsletter were highly publicized. It’s sickening, but apparently that stuff didn’t bother GOP voters in his district.

547 Jack Bauer's Evil Brother  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:07:26pm

Charles, I believe you are absolutely sincere when you describe Cummings and his ilk as right-wing. From your point of view, the idea that he could be left-wing must be the most absurd thing you ever heard. All I can ask is that you recognize me to be sincere when I disagree with you.

548 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:08:34pm

re: #547 Jack Bauer’s Evil Brother

Sure, you’re sincere. And you’re also wrong.

549 tom from pv  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:13:25pm

Charles provided a link and I went there. Be careful though. stormfront.com is a website for the movie industry. stormfront.org is the neo-nazi group.

I know the media popularly describes Nazi’s as right wingers. But I’m pretty skeptical these days about our media always having an unbiased agenda.

I poked around a little on the stormfront.org site and didn’t come up with much that would support the notion that neo-Nazis are, say, Republicans. Or that neo-Nazis are, say, enthusiastic about the tea parties. Or any radio/TV personalities that make so much money from the conservative side.

I doubt anyone can spend much time on that site and conclude anything other than those guys are nuts and dangerous to us all.

Maybe this is like the so-called left wingers who burn down things (ELF) or plant bombs in police/recruiting stations. Those loons are not left-wingers either. They’re just hate-filled, dangerous nuts too.

550 useless  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:18:56pm

I am going to go out on a limb here and note that I have real NAZI’s in the family, so I have a front row seat of knowing just how whacked out you need to be to agree with this ideology. I will also go out on a limb and note too that I had worked in the law enforcement world for 10 years as well.

Why does it matter? The man was mentally ill and he used his NAZI BS to rationalize his world view. I can make the same argument that D&D does not lead teenagers to devil worship, but it is a venue that people pre-disposed to that mindset go to in order to rationalize what they do. If it wasn’t that, it would be something else.

So anyway, why do I care? I think it will be used as a pretext by the government to “Crack down” on people they don’t like. No one is going to argue that NAZI racist freakjobs should be shot and buried in a shallow unmarked grave (if I had my way). But, what history does show is that if you give an inch, they take a mile. I honestly do not expect that the government is going throw this kind of whack job in the same bucket as any other general threat. I feel that they may use this to help justify some pretty extreme measures. Just like BO is going to use the Mexican gun/drug thing to crack down on us legit gun owners (never waste a good crisis) I expect some more not so subtle probing into “Hate” groups that make this socialist governments enemies list. We’ll know in the next few months if those “Hate” groups are Tea parties, republican parties or boyscout troops, you know “Dangerous” types.

Just my guess. Never trust a socialist.

551 Tantor  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:30:08pm

Charles: “”National Socialists” are not socialists in the Marxist sense. The operative word is “National,” as in “nationalism.”

Actually, there are, Charles. The Russsians were international socialists, wanting to spread their revolution over the world. The Germans went for national socialism, seeking socialism in Germany alone. The original platform for the Nazi Party was mostly the platform for the Communist Party with some tweaking. The Nazi flag was red for revolution, just like the Communist flag, standing for roughly the same thing. Hitler bragged that most of his recruits came from the Communists.

The Nazis hated the Communists mostly because they were so similar and competing for the same people as members. That’s why all the Marxist factions hated each other so much. Mensheviks hated the Bolsheviks hated the Trotskyites and so on. They all hated each other as fraternal movements far more than they hated the ideologically more distant capitalists. After all, few leftist radicals will become a capitalist easily. It’s a long trip. It’s a short trip from Bolshevik to Trotskyite.

The point of all this is that lefties hate each other with a fury. For example, the Stalinists at ANSWER hate the UFPJ commies. Then ANSWER broke up into bickering factions on east and west costs. That they hate each other is not proof that they don’t share the same politics but rather proof of the control freak nature of lefty radicals. What’s the difference between American Nazis and the Weathermen? They’re both lily white violent fanatics who pursue a similar vision of an authoritarian government in the US. The Nazis want to set up camps to exterminate the blacks and Jews. The Weatherman wanted to set up camps to exterminate hard right conservatives. The only difference are their respective enemies.

The right wing wants to shrink government and protect individual rights while the Nazis want to expand government so that it controls everything. The Nazis dismissed individual rights. The Nazis were not pro-business, passing laws to prohibit the small businesses they thought unnecessary, while promoting the gargantuan businesses they though most efficient and could control in detail. You can’t get to Nazism by turning right and driving as far as you can. You’ll end up in Libertarianism, where the individual decides everything. To reach Nazism, you have to turn hard left and hit the gas.

The liberals have rewritten history so that evil socialist movements like Nazism and Fascism are now right wing, instead of embarassing variants of socialism as they actually were. The lefties have repeated this lie so often it’s become common wisdom, just like when everyone knew the world was flat. You should reconsider your assumptions about this.

However, I doubt the pseudo-Nazis in America know anything about the politics of the original Nazis but are attracted to them for their evil reputation alone. I suspect the attraction is that of weak men to a powerful image, one that scares and shocks people in a way pleasing to neo-Nazis. For once in their lives they feel powerful. I doubt these local wannabe Nazis have the mental wattage to have real political positions, left or right.

I think you’re taking a cheap shot at conservatives, Charles, using cliched assumptions from the Left. A smart guy like you should be thinking outside the box of the common wisdom.

552 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:31:12pm

Good grief. What a bunch of denialist crap.

553 Tantor  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:35:53pm

Charles: “There is just no such thing as a “left wing neo-Nazi”.”

There is no such thing as a socialist national socialist?

554 useless  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:36:27pm

re: #544 Charles

Charles, I would say that this is probably the other end of the circle of life where left and right meet. From our point of view, the extreme right or left have different goals, but they pretty much would like to use the same means to achieve them. In the end, it all comes down to controlling a population by using force or cohesion because if they have freedom, they will make decisions and do things you don’t agree with.

The fact that both the extreme right and left both want to take away freedom and enforce their world view is what any sane person should not like. None of this “My side is always right” BS. As a committed righty, I would no more want to live in a world dominated by a militant right than one dominated by a militant left. Freedom means I get to live my life with minimal intrusion by the government. Militant anything does not allow for that.

555 kynna  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:36:59pm

I don’t understand why anyone is afraid to label someone with these beliefs right wing. It reminds me of the anti-jihadi activists who cozy up with racist organizations. End of the day, the jihadis and the racist organizations want almost exactly the same thing. There’s a very thin, whisper of a line between the goals of left extremists and right extremists.

556 useless  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:45:33pm

Sorry, was I supposed to be in denial about something?

557 pink freud  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:45:55pm

re: #552 Charles

Good grief. What a bunch of denialist crap.

Maybe this is what is known as “thinking outside of the box”?

/reading those last few posts made my head hurt. Who are these people?

558 SteveRogers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:17:20pm

re: #554 useless
“Militant anything does not allow for that.”

Sure it does. Force everyone to be free.
/

559 SteveRogers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:19:21pm

re: #557 pink freud

Maybe this is what is known as “thinking outside of the box”?

/reading those last few posts made my head hurt. Who are these people?

Lawyers?

560 useless  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:19:55pm

re: #558 SteveRogers

Freedom at the point of a gun?

I wonder what that would be like.

“Do what you want, or I shoot you?”

hmmmm.

561 SteveRogers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:23:23pm

re: #560 useless

Freedom at the point of a gun?

I wonder what that would be like.

“Do what you want, or I shoot you?”

hmmmm.

Precisely! That’s thinking outside the box, right? It’s so crazy it just might work.

562 SteveRogers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:26:26pm

Actually, I prefer to call it “freedom, an offer you can’t refuse.”

Sounds better than “be free or I’ll shoot you.”

563 useless  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:34:21pm

re: #562 SteveRogers

Heh, that made me laugh. I have wondered for a while if that was what we were doing in Iraq and Afghanistan (Disclaimer: Have not been there yet, probably getting sent next year, then I’ll know for sure).

“You will live free and be self determinate”

“But I don’t want to”

“Do it or else”

“Or else what”

“We’ll get back to you on that”

564 SteveRogers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:36:07pm

re: #562 SteveRogers

I should clarify: anything that’s legal. I’m not nuts.

565 SteveRogers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:37:52pm

re: #563 useless

LOL! I think you got something there. BTW, thanks for your service.

566 Quilly Mammoth  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:57:43pm

re: #97 Charles

Thomas More, by the way, is known for instigating burnings of heretics in 16th century England.

LOL!
I guess people think Religious Tolerance because of the movie.

I always found it funny that the Thomas More Institute is a “conservative” organization. When I first heard the name I assumed a Liberal Institution!

Thomas More’s “Utopia” speaks of communally owned property with no privately owned property of any sort universally enforced. It can be argued that More wrote of this because of his own forays into Monastic life and it’s communal ways…perhaps…but it hardly strikes me as the basis for a activist, conservative legal front.

567 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 12:04:22am

So why does anything said in that article cited make him a right-wing nut as opposed to just a nut?

I’ve always regarded communism and fascism/national socialism as two sides of the same “the state is paramount” coin. It’s pretty simplistic to view the political spectrum as being delimited on the way, way, way out there left by communism and on the way, way, way out there right by fascists. The same gross oversimplification appears in the conflation of racism (i.e. hatred for President Obama) with being part of the “right-wing.” I think fair-minded people reject that, despite the best efforts of some in the Democrat party to tie the two inextricably together. I know and know of many on the left who are as rabidly racist as anyone I am familiar with on the right.

So, Charles, what’s the point of this? I continue to be in agreement with you on so many things- evolution, the co-opting of the Republican party and conservatism generally by religious zealots. But you are losing me on this one- I just don’t see the connection you are straining to draw.


D. Edgren

568 proximate  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:10:27am

Charles, this may get me banned but I have to ask:

Idi Amin built statues to Hitler. Was he a right-wing extremist?

Ahmadinejad admires Hitler. Is he a right wing extremist?

569 under the whip  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:11:46am
“Hayek’s challenge was to argue that German Nazism was not an aberrant “right-wing” perversion growing out of the “contradictions” of capitalism. Instead, the Nazi movement had developed out of the “enlightened” and “progressive” socialist and collectivist ideas of the pre-World War I era, which many intellectuals in England and the United States had praised and propagandized for in their own countries.”
570 Stuck-in-CA  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:18:12am

On April 7, 2009 Janet Napolitano and Homeland Security issued a report entitled “Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment.”
The report warns law enforcement to beware of suspicious activity of the following individuals/groups:
Our sons and daughters returning from combat in Iraq and Afghanistan;
Those that embrace the second amendment and their right to bear arms against a tyrannical government;
Those that support the tenth amendment that places firm limits on the power of the federal government and provides expansive powers, and supports the sovereignty to the states government;
Those who believe that Congress is mandated secure our borders and enforce the immigration laws that they, themselves wrote;
People, who in the free exercise of their faith guaranteed by the first amendment, refuse to accept homosexual behavior as an acceptable lifestyle;
People, who in the free exercise of their faith guaranteed by the first amendment, place a higher value on the life of the unborn than the pro-death abortionists;
Those who believe that when government spends over 50% of our tax dollars on welfare (an amount greater than the Gross Domestic Product of Canada), and have developed a debt in excess of $55 trillion dollars, that spending on welfare has become unsustainable;
People who reject exchanging our capitalist society, that in a mere 200 years has made America the most wealthy, most powerful and most charitably country on the planet, for a Marxist way of life that has brought poverty, suffering and hunger to the citizens of every country that has tried it;
More noteworthy than the above is that government has no fear of Leftwing Radical Extremism, from which the vast majority of domestic terrorists have found their roots. Included in the Leftwing category is the Students for a Democratic Society, Bill Ayers and the Weather Underground, Illinois Congressman Bobby Rush former enforce of the Black Panthers (the latter two organizations are self-proclaimed Maoists), Lee Harvey Oswald, and Sirhan Sirhan just to name a few.
Elementary logic tells a thinking person that the current administration is unafraid of Leftwing radicals because they, themselves are Leftwing radicals.

571 Mad Mullah  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:07:43am

I for one see many good reasons to be highly skeptical of that apparently rushed DHS report and I also believe that there is sufficient evidence to question the motives of the administration under which it was released. Even if work on it may have been started under Bush, Obama is the head honcho in charge now.

With the Left Wing Extremist POTUS getting all jiggy and cozying it up with USA hating dictators like Chavez, I have a hard time taking seriously some report about any big threat from evil terrorists on the right. This is coming from the same administration that is downplaying the actual terror threat posed by lunatic Islamic terrorists, you know, the people who have most recently murdered thousands on this soil. They’re downplaying it by removing certain “politically incorrect” words from their vocabulary (unless they’re talking about right-wingers of course) and changing phrases in a suspicious way that is taken straight out of a George Orwell novel. Janet Napolitano never once mentioned the word “terrorism” during her first testimony for Congress as secretary. The silly and confused woman used the ridiculous term ‘man-caused’ disasters. They weren’t equally shy about using that word when speaking about right wing extremists in their recent report.

I also see a Left Wing Extremist POTUS bending his body in an almost 90 degree angle to foreign totalitarian kings and then afterwards, a spokesperson for the administration denies that Obama ever bowed. Nobody should be too shocked if in a future press conference, the administration will claim that 2+2=5, effective June 1, 2009. Why should I take seriously or even trust any report coming from such incompetent and blatantly dishonest people?

Obama’s entire life shows a history of extremely bad character judgement on his part, from racist reverends to terrorist acquaintances to convicted felons. Judging by who he’s currently cozying up to in the world, and certain events that have transpired since Obama has taken office, I question the administration’s competence and their judgement when it comes to providing accurate threat assessments. I also believe that they’re painting with a brush size that is far too large and that there are political reasons behind their motives.

572 Perplexed  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 5:52:48am
It says that four 1-gallon containers of 35 percent hydrogen peroxide, uranium, thorium, lithium metal, thermite, aluminum powder, beryllium, boron, black iron oxide and magnesium ribbon were found in the home.

Hmmm 35 percent solution of hydrogen peroxide? Getting close to rocket fuel there and is a very potent oxidizer.
Uranium? Orange glaze for pottery.
Thorium? Lantern mantels.
Aluminum powder? Self ignites if you leave it exposed to air and the powder is fine enough.
Beryllium? Nasty material if you machine it since the dust will kill you if inhaled otherwise pretty safe.
Boron? Tame.
Black iron oxide? Very tame. The red iron oxide is what they use in thermite.
Thermite? Think 4th of July sparklers here. Burns hot.
Magnesium ribbon? Easy to ignite and often used to get thermite going.

So what if he had literature that discussed dirty bombs? We still have the right to posses literature that is repugnant in content. Had this guy acted on any of this stuff I would say throw him away under the jail. Any idea of what even short term exposure of radioactive cobalt-60 would do to you? Think massive dosages of radiation. Think hair falling out and massive burns from exposure to intense radiation. Think systems shutting down. All of this within just a few days.

573 Perplexed  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 6:02:12am

re: #536 sojerofgod

Ben-Ami:

No you cannot detect radiation with your senses, at least not in doses like you would get from radiation poisoning: The horror pics from Hiroshima were of people subjected to the blast from a bomb. In a fallout situation you just get sick and die. There is an iodine compound that is supposed to help block the radiation from attacking your thyroid but I don’t remember what the name of it is…

Ingesting small amounts of iodine saturates your thyroid and prevents your thyroid from taking in radioactive iodine. Radioactive iodine has a very short half-life. If you ingested radioactive iodine in sufficient quantities it would destroy your thyroid glands.

574 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 6:34:09am

re: #535 Charles

Can you name another “leftist racist” who hated black people, joined white supremacist groups, collected weapons, and became a neo-Nazi?

I’ll wait.

Robert C. Byrd

(or am I exhibiting “denialist crap”, too?)

Who’s in denial here? “National Socialist” = “racist socialist”. Please, list the points from the Nazi party’s 25-point program that are “right wing”.

Points 1-9, 19, 22 all deal with the party’s racist/nationalistic ideology
#10 deals with collectivism (the individual must work; the work of the individual must not counteract with the interests of the whole)
#12 deals with confiscation by the state of war profits from private industry
#13 deals with the nationalization of private industry
#14 deals with division of profits
#15 deals with expansion of welfare
#16 deals with creation of a “middle class” through communalization
#17 deals with land reform for public utility
#18 deals with punishment by death of profiteers and others “injurious” to the “general interest”
#20 deals with state-run education system
#21 deals with outlawing child labor and establishment of PE classes
#23 deals with state control of the press
#24 deals with the establishment of “Positive Christianity” (a leftwing bastardization of Christianity)
#25 deals with establishing unlimited power of the state to effect the program

Where, exactly, is the rightwing ideology?

Or am I in denial, too?

575 forrest  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 6:55:27am

Nazis were definitely Socialist as many of the commenters are trying to point out. They were nationalist socialists rather than the more common internationalist variety, but still definitely collectivist, statist, command-economy socialists.

576 JimH  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 7:04:02am

re: #7 Charles

“National Socialists” are not socialists in the Marxist sense. The operative word is “National,” as in “nationalism.”

Respectfully I disagree. How is the socialist aspect of national socialism less operative than the nationalist? The Nazis ran a command economy and limited individual freedoms, just as communist governments do. The phrase “right wing” is misused as a contrast to “left wing” when it isn’t. This isn’t an idea Jonah Goldberg just made up.

From F.A. Hayek’s The Road to Serfdom:

No less significant is the intellectual history of many of the Nazi and Fascist leaders. Everyone who has watched the growth of these movements in Italy or in Germany has been struck by the number of leading men, from Mussolini downward (and not excluding Laval and Quisling), who began as socialists and ended as Fascists or Nazis. And what is true of the leaders is even more true of the rank and file of the movement. The relative ease with which a young communist could be converted into a Nazi or vice versa was generally known in Germany, best of all to the propagandists of the two parties. Many a university teacher during the 1930’s has seen English and American students return from the Continent uncertain whether they were communists or Nazis and certain only that they hated Western liberal civilization.

It is true, of course, that in Germany before 1933, and in Italy before 1922, communists and Nazis or Fascists clashed more frequently with each other than with other parties. They competed for the support of the same type of mind and reserved for each other the hatred of the heretic. But their practice showed how closely they are related. To both, the real enemy, the man with whom they had nothing in common and whom they could not hope to convince, is the liberal of the old type. While to the Nazi the communist, and to the communist the Nazi, and to both the socialist, are potential recruits who are made of the right timber, although they have listened to false prophets, they both know that there can be no compromise between them and those who a really believe in individual freedom.

Chapter 2: The Great Utopia

577 GhostShip  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 7:08:07am

I’m glad to see that there are some people who recognize that nazis are a left-wing political group. The success of the left in labeling the right as nazis was one of their biggest propaganda victories. It’s way past time for that label to go back to where it belongs.

578 born conservative  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 7:11:45am

re: #554 useless

It helps to clarify discussions of this sort if you categorize everyone that wants big government as “statist” and those who want limited government and adherence to our founding principles as “conservative” — from Mark Levin’s book, Liberty and Tyranny

579 SunshineGirl  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 7:14:02am

Ok, let’s all take a deep breath and consider the facts ( rather than get stirred up into a frenzy and act like Code Pink people)…. 1) the man had some chemicals of a questionable nature 2) the man had some issues and 3) the man had interests that might be considered ‘outside the mainstream’. With that in mind, let’s remember 1) the ‘average right winger’ is going to use the kitchen sink for it’s intended purpose ( and not for mixing up a dirty bomb) 2) what this man has in common with the ‘average right winger’— AND— the ‘average liberal leftist’ is that all are human beings. Just because Mr. Cummings had a penchant for chemicals and fringe groups, doesn’t mean that everyone on the right ( or anyone for that matter) has the same ideas and habits! Let’s be logical here…

580 Perplexed  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 7:15:07am

re: #577 GhostShip

I’m glad to see that there are some people who recognize that nazis are a left-wing political group. The success of the left in labeling the right as nazis was one of their biggest propaganda victories. It’s way past time for that label to go back to where it belongs.

Except for the eugenics and their hatred of the Jews, the nazi platform closely resembles that of the democrats. Take out the historical context and locations and you would have the democrat party fully supporting the nazi platform. Did exactly that on a liberal site and it took someone rather knowledgeable to spot it and call me on it. In the meantime, lots of liberals praised it as being pretty good.

581 Perplexed  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 7:16:42am

re: #579 SunshineGirl

Liberals also have their fair share of fringe elements (i.e. unibomber, elf, alf, etc).

582 forrest  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 7:17:08am

re: #577 GhostShip

I’m glad to see that there are some people who recognize that nazis are a left-wing political group. The success of the left in labeling the right as Nazis was one of their biggest propaganda victories. It’s way past time for that label to go back to where it belongs.

No doubt. A major coup for left leaning academics.

583 Perplexed  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 7:26:52am

re: #582 forrest

No doubt. A major coup for left leaning academics.

Typical tactic of calling your enemies by the worst possible names. What’s worse than calling someone a nazi? A political hack? Might soon be possible to invoke the revulsion of the nazis by calling someone a democrat.

584 ArdentCapitalist  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 8:01:03am

It amazes me that someone who joins up with the “National Socialists” is considered to be right-wing, when socialism, and its ugly cousin communism, are solidly rooted in leftist ideology started by that proletariat-worshiping sociopath with an unkempt beard. Just because some socialists bond to an inherently racist ideology and call it a nationalist flavor of socialism does NOT make them “right wing.” Beneath all their racist rhetoric and unintelligent acceptance of believing in a superior race to others, at their core they are still wealth redistributionists. They do not believe in the sanctity of one’s right to life, liberty, and property, and believe it is not only warranted, but necessary to cast aside the sanctity of the individual when the needs of the unproductive become too burdensome. The reason I say “life” is that I view property as the fruits of one’s labors, and it takes time, or rather a portion of one’s life, to attain and earn that property. When one gains property or wealth from the labor’s of others without the laborer’s consent, it is slavery. Every week, I go to work for a day and a half without pay to benefit the lives of others. I am allowed to keep the remaining 25 hours of my pay, but there is little protection I have, or any other man of means has, from having that burden increased even further on behalf of the unproductive… be they the unemployed, the sickly, the lazy, the depressed, the children, or any other malaise-laden individual with undesirable attributes of man.

I too, was very upset when Barack Hussein Obama was elected president. The populist nature of the election was at a level unseen before in our nation’s history. “The children” raised in the multiculturalist moral relativist and self esteem centric environment of government schools taught by leftist unionists with Marxist leanings proved itself to come to full fruition. “The children” are now no longer “the children,” but rather “the electorate.” For over a generation, we have failed to teach our youth why representative democracy and free markets are a special thing worth preserving. We have failed to teach our children why our nation and those who emulate our example are special, even with our mistakes and poor marks of the past. We have now in less than four months seen a government-led attack on a PRIVATE citizen political commentator of the opposing political philosophy starting from the executive on down through the halls of congress. Before the election the aspiring senator from Illinois tried to silence investigative journalists exploring his connection to terrorist William Ayers, as well as his connection to ACORN. Now political opposition to the Obama camp is being accused of fueling police slayings in Pittsburgh. This unfortunately rings a bit scarily familiar to previous historical examples of political majority holders dismissing and ignoring, then demonizing, and then eventually eliminating its political adversaries, rather than engage them in spirited and open debate of ideas.

I am a Global War on Terrorism veteran, a war that no longer exists according to our current Commander-in-Chief. I have been trained by our nation’s Corps of Marines, a non-commissioned officer and leader OF Marines and hold a political ideology that is polar to Obama’s wealth redistributionist flavor of Marxism. It is disturbing to me that my beliefs in the sanctity of the individual over the whims of the masses in combination with my prowess of combat and the art of war in combination with honorable service may now very well have me marked in a government surveillance program because there is little political ideology in Obama that I hold to be in the spirit of our nation’s founding. That, my fellow Americans, does indeed make me fearful and feel a bit more isolated from the nation I serve.

Because some socialists have a warped nationalist philosophy with an ugly streak of racism, they are still leftists, even when they are against other socialists of a different race.

585 meh130  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 8:07:21am

re: #4 monkeytime

Don’t you read Newsweek? We’re all socialists now.

586 meh130  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 9:08:05am

I think the problem is right-wing really has no meaning any more. It has become a catch-all. Right-wing continues to be used as a description of nationalist or militarist organizations, regardless of the economic system advocated. Right-wing is really about the style of government, not the economic system. But at the same time, it is associated with “right of center” political organizations which support free market economics.

DHS describes right-wing to include those who hate particular religious, racial or ethnic groups. By that definition, the Black Panthers were a right-wing group. Certainly Calypso Louie’s Nation of Islam fits the DHS definition of right-wing group. DHS also says right-wing includes those who are antigovernment, including those who reject government authority entirely. That description fits Weather Underground to a tee. They must be a right-wing group as well. This is idiotarianism.

Like I said, right-wing has no meaning any more.

Germany under Hitler advocated German nationalism and had a program of genocide of unfavorable non-German nationals. It also happened to be socialist. It was generally described as right-wing.

The Soviet Union under Stalin advocated Russian nationalism and had a program of genocide of unfavorable non-Russian nationals. It also happened to be socialist. But it was never described as right-wing. Some described it as left-wing.

The difference is, at its core, Nazi Germany self-identified as ethnic nationalist movement, and the Soviet Union self-identified as an economic communist movement.

But how can a left to right continuum start at one end as an economic continuum and end as a ethnic identity continuum? It can’t. If communism is the left, then the Austrian school is the right. If Nazism is the right, then libertarianism is the left. The only answer is it is a matrix, not a continuum.

Today, in western liberal democracies, left-wing still has meaning, because it primarily describes economic policies. In the same in western liberal democracies, right of center conservatives are considered right of center because of free market economic policies, not nationalism.

We desperately need new scales and new terms. In western liberal democracies, individualists are generally right of center libertarians. Left of center people tend to group identify, which is a basis of corporatism, which is a feature of fascism, which is considered right wing. Many union workers oppose not only free trade but also open borders. Pat Buchanan advocates left-wing nationalist economic policies. Ron Gettelfinger advocates left-wing nationalist economic policies. As George Wallace would say, there is not a dimes worth of difference between them. But the press would naturally suggest Buchanan and Gettelfinger are at opposite ends of the political spectrum (which may indeed be a circle, as Charles has suggested).

The press will report those who say “Get the government out of my life (school, church, whatever)” are right wing, but those who say “Get the government out of my life (womb, bedroom, whatever)” are left wing.

Despite the decline of the nationalist politics of Thurmond, Wallace, and Helms, Pat Buchanan’s isolation from the Republican Party, and the rise of big spending compassionate conservationism, the Republican party today is still defined as right-wing, when it is to the left of John Kennedy.

The words have lost meaning. “Ideological Extremist” is a far more useful term than “Right Wing Extremest”.

587 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 9:26:54am

re: #579 SunshineGirl

…what this man has in common with the ‘average right winger’— AND— the ‘average liberal leftist’ is that all are human beings. Just because Mr. Cummings had a penchant for chemicals and fringe groups, doesn’t mean that everyone on the right ( or anyone for that matter) has the same ideas and habits! Let’s be logical here…

And of course, no one ever said that this man had anything in common with the “average right winger.” The POINT that some seem absolutely determined to miss is that he was an extremist. I thought I made that pretty crystal clear in my post, but still people want to take offense at something that was neither written nor intended.

Calling him a “left winger” is ridiculous. These views — white supremacism, neo-Nazism — can only be described as “extreme right wing.” You may not like it, but if you identify with and feel it necessary to defend the term “right wing” to the point where you won’t even acknowledge simple facts, the word for that is “denial.”

588 funky chicken  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 9:47:57am

re: #568 proximate

Charles, this may get me banned but I have to ask:

Idi Amin built statues to Hitler. Was he a right-wing extremist?

Ahmadinejad admires Hitler. Is he a right wing extremist?

So, Ahmadinejad seems like a liberal to you? Those Mullahs are really open minded about women’s rights and free expression and tolerance of minorities and homosexuals?

I guess I’m gonna vote that the little nutter is definitely a right-wing extremist.

sorry/ well, not really

589 funky chicken  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 9:51:43am

LOL yeah, those neo-nazis just want to build Volkswagon factories all over the US and increase the railroad infrastructure.

590 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:04:56am

National Socialism, as applied to Nazism and neo-Nazism, is NOT a left wing ideology, and it is NOT socialism. Socialism promotes a classless society — Nazism is rigidly class-oriented and deeply racist. Socialism promotes redistribution of wealth — Nazism consolidated wealth into the hands of big industrialists and bankers. Socialism promotes the end of national states — Nazism was the ultimate patriotic/nationalistic society.

I could go on. The idea that National Socialism was equivalent to Marxism is ludicrous and wrong. This was and is a right wing ideology to its core.

591 GhostShip  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:05:43am

re: #587 Charles

The problem is that these are not simple facts. The left has succeeded in branding the right wing as nazis so well that when a person thinks of nazis they think that’s a right wing group. If people put aside what they have been told all their lives and examine the philosophy of such groups they would find that nazis have way more in common with left-wing ideology than right-wing ideology. Those of us on the right such as conservatives and libertarians reject the label because it is a not consistent with our ideology.

Also, racism is an ugly behavior that exists all over the political spectrum. White supremacism or any racist beliefs are not the sole property of the right. I doubt that the racist Reverend White would consider himself a right-winger.

592 MacDuff  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:08:41am

I think that what Charles has attempted to point out here is that there are “extremists” in every movement, from animal rights to environmentalism to religion to politics and just about every other ideology one can imagine.

A lot of us here (Charles included) have been asking Islam to recognize, expose and denounce the dangerous radicals in their midst; is it to much to ask that we, as conservatives, do the same? While I do not believe that fascism is a logical step from conservatism, there are nuts that will make that step nonetheless. The responsible response is to denounce them, not to deny that their muddled brains mutated a perfectly legitimate ideology to a motive for murder.

Instead of arguing left, right, and the degrees thereof, maybe we should all just come to a consensus that terrorism is terrorism and if it springs from our particular ideology, the response should be repudiation, not denial. Denial marginalizes all of us.

593 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:10:11am

re: #592 MacDuff

A lot of us here (Charles included) have been asking Islam to recognize, expose and denounce the dangerous radicals in their midst; is it to much to ask that we, as conservatives, do the same?

Apparently, for some people the answer to your question is “yes, it’s too much to ask.”

594 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:12:07am

re: #592 MacDuff

Very good post, by the way. I agree with every word.

595 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:31:39am

re: #588 funky chicken

So, Ahmadinejad seems like a liberal to you? Those Mullahs are really open minded about women’s rights and free expression and tolerance of minorities and homosexuals?

I guess I’m gonna vote that the little nutter is definitely a right-wing extremist.

sorry/ well, not really

So, in your warped world, oppression of women’s rights and free expression, and intolerance of minorities and homosexuals are all conservative ideologies?

596 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:34:25am

re: #592 MacDuff

I think that what Charles has attempted to point out here is that there are “extremists” in every movement, from animal rights to environmentalism to religion to politics and just about every other ideology one can imagine.

(snip)

Instead of arguing left, right, and the degrees thereof, maybe we should all just come to a consensus that terrorism is terrorism and if it springs from our particular ideology, the response should be repudiation, not denial. Denial marginalizes all of us.

Ah, but the problem here is that it is the express intent of this particular post to label this nut-job as a rightwing extremist (in order to “prove” that the DHS report on “rightwing extremism” was justified).

597 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:35:15am

re: #596 chipbennett

Ah, but the problem here is that it is the express intent of this particular post to label this nut-job as a rightwing extremist (in order to “prove” that the DHS report on “rightwing extremism” was justified).

He was a right wing extremist.

598 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:39:26am

re: #590 Charles

National Socialism, when applied to Nazism, is NOT a left wing ideology, and it is not socialism. Socialism promotes a classless society — Nazism is rigidly class-oriented and deeply racist. Socialism promotes redistribution of wealth — Nazism consolidated wealth into the hands of big industrialists and bankers. Socialism promotes the end of national states — Nazism was the ultimate patriotic/nationalistic society.

I could go on. The idea that National Socialism was equivalent to Marxism is ludicrous and wrong. This was and is a right-wing ideology to its core.

The only person using the term “Marxism” here is you. It’s use is a textbook example of a straw man.

I already pointed out each of the socialist points found in the Nazi party’s 25-point program, and challenged you to elucidate the rightwing ideology found therein.

National Socialism - as with Fascism - is an extreme, far-left ideology. There is absolutely nothing rightwing about National Socialism - nothing. And I challenge - nay, defy - you to disprove that assertion.

599 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:40:13am

re: #598 chipbennett

The only person using the term “Marxism” here is you. It’s use is a textbook example of a straw man.

I already pointed out each of the socialist points found in the Nazi party’s 25-point program, and challenged you to elucidate the rightwing ideology found therein.

National Socialism - as with Fascism - is an extreme, far-left ideology. There is absolutely nothing rightwing about National Socialism - nothing. And I challenge - nay, defy - you to disprove that assertion.

You didn’t address a single one of the points I made in my comment.

600 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:40:35am

re: #597 Charles

He was a right wing extremist.

So, you don’t really “agree with every word” MacDuff wrote in his post, eh?

601 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:43:34am

re: #599 Charles

You didn’t address a single one of the points I made in my comment.

Likewise, see my original comment. It had several - 14, to be exact - points that demonstrated that National Socialism is socialist (i.e. leftwing).

602 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:45:52am

re: #601 chipbennett

Likewise, see my original comment. It had several - 14, to be exact - points that demonstrated that National Socialism is socialist (i.e. leftwing).

Yeah — I especially liked how you glossed right over “Points 1-9, 19, 22,” dealing with the party’s racist/nationalistic ideology. Because those are the points that are exactly counter to your ludicrous, revisionist claim that Nazism was equivalent to socialism.

It wasn’t and it isn’t.

603 MacDuff  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:52:20am

re: #600 chipbennett

So, you don’t really “agree with every word” MacDuff wrote in his post, eh?

Maybe a more appropriate question would be on what point, in my post, do you disagree?

604 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:57:47am

re: #590 Charles

National Socialism, when applied to Nazism, is NOT a left wing ideology, and it is not socialism. Socialism promotes a classless society — Nazism is rigidly class-oriented and deeply racist. Socialism promotes redistribution of wealth — Nazism consolidated wealth into the hands of big industrialists and bankers. Socialism promotes the end of national states — Nazism was the ultimate patriotic/nationalistic society.

I could go on. The idea that National Socialism was equivalent to Marxism is ludicrous and wrong. This was and is a right-wing ideology to its core.

Socialism may claim to promote a classless society, but it is only tenable with the authoritarian class exerts ultimate control over the working class. Socialists know and understand this reality. Any rhetoric to the contrary is simply to placate the underclass.

Socialism promotes redistribution of wealth, but the only way to implement such redistribution is to consolidate that wealth in the hands of the government. Nazism promoted big industries, but those industries were government-run. No conflict-of-ideology exists.

The assertion that socialism promoted the end of national states is, well, laughable - as anyone with even a modicum of understanding of the history of Socialist regimes would understand. Further, the Nazis (i.e. Nationalist Socialists) sure didn’t stay within the borders of their own country, now did they?

Please, do go on. I’m still waiting to hear how any Nazi ideology is rightwing, much less rightwing “to its core”.

605 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 11:07:00am

re: #602 Charles

Yeah — I especially liked how you glossed right over “Points 1-9, 19, 22,” dealing with the party’s racist/nationalistic ideology. Because those are the points that are exactly counter to your ludicrous, revisionist claim that Nazism was equivalent to socialism.

It wasn’t and it isn’t.

What does racism have to do with rightwing ideology?

Just to prove the lie to your assertion:

Point #1 deals with the “unification of all Germans”
#2 deals with “equality of rights” of Germans, and abrogation of the treaty of Versailles
#3 deals with damands for land to support German people
#4 deals with the exclusivity of German citizenship to “the race”, with particular racism toward Jews
#5 deals with treating non-citizens as “guests”, who must live in Germany under the authority of the state
#6 deals with excluding anyone not of “the race” from holding public office
#7 deals with requiring non-citizens to be expelled,
#8 deals with not allowing immigration
#9 deals with equal rights and obligations of “citizens”
#19 deals with instituting German common law in place of Roman common law
#22 deals with the establishment of a German army

So, which of those points “are exactly counter to [my] ludicrous, revisionist claim that Nazism was equivalent to socialism”?

By the way, I especially liked how you glossed right over Points 10-18, 20, 21, 23-25, dealing with the party’s socialist ideology. Because those are the points that are exactly counter to your ludicrous, revisionist claim that Nazism was not socialist.

606 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 11:13:30am

re: #603 MacDuff

Maybe a more appropriate question would be on what point, in my post, do you disagree?

I can’t say that I disagree anything per se in your comment in question.

The problem, however, is that many of us believe that our government is demonstrating an agenda (perhaps made more poignant for those of us who live in Missouri, considering the similarities between the now-retracted MIAC militia report, and the DHS report) - an agenda that attempts to conflate rightwing ideology (as well as not only lawful, but explicitly Constitutional militia activity) - as potentially extremist and therefore potentially violent (and even “terrorist”).

Instead of arguing left, right, and the degrees thereof, maybe we should all just come to a consensus that terrorism is terrorism and if it springs from our particular ideology, the response should be repudiation, not denial. Denial marginalizes all of us.

We are not the ones who need to understand this statement. We already do understand it. Apparently, though, our government does not.

607 GhostShip  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 11:15:43am

I would be interested to learn what those people who think nazis are a right-wing ideology consider to be the defining points of a right-wing ideology because obviously we’re using different definitions. The definition that I’m using considers the right to stand for smaller government, individual rights, property rights, and the rule of law. This is the exact opposite of what the Nazis stood for so I really wish to hear how some people connect the two.

608 Gus  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 11:18:09am

re: #602 Charles

Yeah — I especially liked how you glossed right over Points 1-9, 19, 22, dealing deal with the party’s racist/nationalistic ideology. Because those are the points that are exactly counter to your ludicrous, revisionist claim that Nazism was equivalent to socialism.

It wasn’t and it isn’t.

Charles,

It looks to me as though the revisionist here trying to redefine the concept of right-wing vs. left-wing are failing to see the historical background of nationalism as it relates to the the ultra-right-wing. They attempt to support this underlying argument by using the 3rd Reich as a model (incorrectly) and failing to take into consideration other movements and leaders such as:

1. Francisco Franco
2. Spanish Traditionalist Phalanx of the Assemblies of National-Syndicalist Offensive
3. Carlism
4. Ethno-Nationalism

This failure to take into account the associated history of nationalism and the ultra-right only results in a myopic understanding of the current definitions.

609 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 11:18:41am

OK, folks. Go right ahead and believe things that aren’t true, if they comfort you and help you to feel like you’re being victimized. I’m finished trying to discuss this with ideologues.

610 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 11:23:41am

re: #607 GhostShip

I would be interested to learn what those people who think nazis are a right-wing ideology consider to be the defining points of a right-wing ideology because obviously we’re using different definitions. The definition that I’m using considers the right to stand for smaller government, individual rights, property rights, and the rule of law. This is the exact opposite of what the Nazis stood for so I really wish to hear how some people connect the two.

Not sure why you got down-dinged on this one, GhostShip. Apparently, the locals don’t agree with your understanding of left-vs-right ideology.

As has been stated elsewhere, the correct analogy for rightwing vs leftwing is individualism vs statism. The right stands for smaller government and individual rights, and the left stands for larger government and subversion of individual rights to the needs of the collective.

As you have indicated, the Nazi party was the polar opposite of “smaller government and individual rights”.

611 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 11:27:28am

re: #609 Charles

OK, folks. Go right ahead and believe things that aren’t true, if they comfort you and help you to feel like you’re being victimized. I’m finished trying to discuss this with ideologues.

But you’ve not really discussed anything. When presented with concrete evidence of the socialist beliefs held by the Nazi party, you effectively stuck your fingers in your ears and said, “Nya, nya, I can’t hear you. It’s not true.”

And I am in no way victimized by your apparent failure to understand history, or to portray the nutjob in your original post as a rightwinger.

612 MacDuff  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 11:46:42am

re: #606 chipbennett

We are not the ones who need to understand this statement. We already do understand it. Apparently, though, our government does not.

Well, respectfully, we may have to agree to disagree. I think that we are not to the point (or even close) to the point of taking up arms against our government and I hope that I do not see that day come. While I would agree that there was some political motivation involved with the DHS report (there always is), I do believe that “extremist” elements exist on our side.

While I fully support Second Amendment rights, our First Amendment rights (and the free exercises thereof) are the greatest protection from government excess.

Again, whether they come from the Left, or the Right, violent entities need to be eliminated and arguing about their particular ideology seems to diminish the evil they peddle. Nazis and Communists both have a lot of blood on their hands and discussing the degree of that blood, degrees of evil, or the ultimate source seems a waste of valuable time that could be spent exorcising BOTH ideologies from our system of government.

613 Salamantis  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 11:49:34am

Go back to your philosophical history. Both Communism and Fascism originated in the German philosopher Hegel, but were a result of a split in his followers between Left-Hegelians and Right-Hegelians.

The Left-Hegelians reversed Hegel’s conception of the history of the human race being one of the evolution a God who had obliviously infused himself into humanity back to self-knowledge, and claimed that it was the collective evolution of the control of the material means of production, not Spirit, that defined human history. Since, unlike with religion, there was only one material science, all humans, being material, were considered to be equal, and any system that enabled some of them to live in idle luxury off the material labor of others was considered to be unjust and unfair, and in fact to be slavery.

The Right-Hegelians, on the other hand, considered the history of the human race as being the evolution of the manifestation of collective human will in the world. The individual spirit, or geist, that motivated this collective will was considered to be different for different tribes of people, and this is where Fascism’s ethnocentricity and racism came in.

614 Salamantis  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 11:55:41am

Both Fascism and Communism are collectivities, true, but collectivities of vastly different natures. But as collectivities, they are each opposed in their own way to individualism, as embodied in capitalist societies in general, and constitutional democracies in particular.

615 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 11:58:26am

Interestingly, if you check around the web to see who’s promoting the “Nazis were leftists” view, you’ll discover that it’s a very popular meme among far right kooks like Lew Rockwell and Pat Buchanan. No, I’m not saying that only far right kooks have this faulty view, but they’re drawn to it for a reason.

616 green_earth  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 12:25:28pm

Perhaps in 600 plus comments it’s been said many times, but why do all the fringe kooks who are white-supremest, cult-like, or otherwise off their rocker get lumped in with conservatism? It appears to me that only “the right” has a big tent when it comes to whack-jobs. And all the while those with leanings toward central-planning, communism, or other hard-line socialist ideals are treated softly because of their good intentions for mankind. History has shown that both extremes are deadly to the human race, and the boundaries of what is far right or far left is getting a little blurry these days…

617 Gus  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 12:25:42pm

re: #615 Charles

Interestingly, if you check around the web to see who’s promoting the “Nazis were leftists” view, you’ll discover that it’s a very popular meme among far right kooks like Lew Rockwell and Pat Buchanan. No, I’m not saying that only far right kooks have this faulty view, but they’re drawn to it for a reason.

The prevailing view seems to come from each side of the political spectrum. The far-left sees everything to the right as “bad” and the far-right sees everything to the left as “bad.” The idea that fascism is the monopoly of the left is absurd.

Specifically with the case of Rockwell, Buchanan, et al the summary of their view is basically a defense of far-right extremists. They attempt to redefine the far-right as being far-left through a variety of rhetorical mechanisms with a focus on Nazi-Germany. This is simply what one could call propaganda. The reality is that both extremist views are not beneficial to society. The far-right is not consistent with conservatism nor democracy and the far-left is not consistent with liberalism and democracy.

Defending conservatism by way of ascribing leftism to far-right factions will only result in the appearance of defending right-wing extremism while arguing that “all things bad are left-wing” reflects a monochromatic view of the world.

618 green_earth  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 12:32:14pm

re: #617 Gus 802

Wow Gus 802, I’d say you and I were on the same wavelength at almost the same exact time. Well said by the way.

619 Gus  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 12:35:21pm

re: #618 green_earth

Wow Gus 802, I’d say you and I were on the same wavelength at almost the same exact time. Well said by the way.

Thanks. I think it’s a matter of sets and associations as well.

620 Mad Mullah  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 12:37:29pm

re: #616 green_earth
and the boundaries of what is far right or far left is getting a little blurry these days…

I can barely tell the difference between reading stormfront and certain liberal forums. There is a bit more support and understanding for Islamic terrorists on liberal forums though.

Speaking as a person who would certainly be first in line if there was ever a new holocaust, Nazis don’t bother me too much in 2009, liberals and Jihadists are much worse in my opinion.

621 bluemerle  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 12:50:04pm

Charles wrote: “These views — white supremacism, neo-Nazism — can only be described as ‘extreme right wing.’ “

That doesn’t follow, Charles, and I am keen to hear your explanation of same.
I think the right wing would exclude neo-nazi’s from their philosophical company.
Why would you insist otherwise?

622 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 12:55:46pm

re: #621 bluemerle

Charles wrote: “These views — white supremacism, neo-Nazism — can only be described as ‘extreme right wing.’ “

That doesn’t follow, Charles, and I am keen to hear your explanation of same.
I think the right wing would exclude neo-nazi’s from their philosophical company.
Why would you insist otherwise?

Did you miss the word “extreme” in what I wrote?

623 CEQAttorney  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:13:58pm

Wow. There’s a lot of passion here…..

In reviewing the report and the fall out, I can understand why conservatives are upset about it. While the report couches its language, it’s implication is pretty clear.

The two problems I have with the report is it’s lack of any statistics or evidence to support it’s conclusions and the white washing of groups or beliefs as conducive to being violent.

First, the lack of specifics in the report. The report’s failure to include these numbers is a grave cause for concern. How many former military members are joining these groups? Where are they concentrated? Are neo-Nazi groups expanding? By how much and who?

The problem is this; how would a police department know how to react to an illegal immigration rally? Is it a precursor to the formation of an extremist group or is it a legitimate protest? Because the report does not provide details, a police department will not know how to react.

The other problem is the association of political beliefs with extremism. An anti-illegal immigration group is not an extremist group. However, the report implies that it is or at least “could be.” Should a local law enforcement group monitor such groups for violence.

Also, the problem I have is the constant association Tim McVeigh with other soldiers. With over six million veterans, a single soldier is not a pattern of behavior.

Finally, to use information from a group that supports illegal immigration is suspect. Especially since that group calls a well established group, the American Legion, a “hate group.”

There is no denying that there are extremists on both sides of the spectrum. But this report seems to be an attempt to condemn a lot of conservatives because they hold a similar view.

624 bluemerle  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:14:59pm

Charles, I did not miss the word “extreme.” Calling it an extreme form of right-wing philosophy obviously indicates you believe it to be on the fringe of the right wing, but the underlying assumption that it is an offshoot of right wing philosophy does not logically follow.

In other words, your basis for the underlying assumption may be faulty. Why do you consider it an offshoot of right-wing philosophy or politics instead of something repugnant unto itself?

625 forrest  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:23:54pm

re: #615 Charles

Interestingly, if you check around the web to see who’s promoting the “Nazis were leftists” view, you’ll discover that it’s a very popular meme among far right kooks like Lew Rockwell and Pat Buchanan. No, I’m not saying that only far right kooks have this faulty view, but they’re drawn to it for a reason.

Invoking Pat Buchanan doesn’t do one thing to prove that Nazis weren’t socialists. Far right wing would be anarchy. Far left wing is Communism. The Nazis were nationalist, racist socialists. Nazism was big government in every way including a largely command economy. This is a far left system and not at all a far right one. I know all of us were taught that Nazis were right wingers by our teachers in high school and college, but it just doesn’t hold water. They called themselves “Socialist” because they were. No amount of Tuquoque arguments or leftist spin can change it.

626 forrest  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:26:58pm

Sorry, I meant to say “ad hominem arguments” previously. As in, “if Pat Buchanan says something, then it obviously must be wrong”.

I’m not a Buchanan fan, but if he says Nazis were socialist, he’s right, no matter how much I don’t like him.

627 bluemerle  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:28:14pm

# 622, Charles, It also has the unfortunate effect of lumping in philosphical underpinnings of conservative or classically “whig” thought (more closely linked to current mainstream conservatism) with a groups (like neo nazis) which hold ideas so utterly rejected by them as to make it not only a more extreme version of right wing philosophy, but one untterly incompatible with the right wing.

Why do you assign “right wing” to neo nazism at all?

628 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:36:27pm

re: #624 bluemerle

Charles, I did not miss the word “extreme.” Calling it an extreme form of right-wing philosophy obviously indicates you believe it to be on the fringe of the right wing, but the underlying assumption that it is an offshoot of right wing philosophy does not logically follow.

Neo-Nazism and the National Socialist creeps are right wing extremists. They identify themselves as right wing; it’s easy to verify this, just check out their own statements. They are CERTAINLY NOT left wing extremists by any sense of the term.

It’s pointless to argue about this, because I’ve come to realize that a lot of people have blinders on.

629 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:36:39pm

re: #626 forrest

Sorry, I meant to say “ad hominem arguments” previously. As in, “if Pat Buchanan says something, then it obviously must be wrong”.

I’m not a Buchanan fan, but if he says Nazis were socialist, he’s right, no matter how much I don’t like him.

The Nazis were not socialists.

630 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:44:12pm

A question for you folks who want to keep arguing that neo-Nazis are “left wing:”

Are there any extremist groups you WOULD call “right wing?” Any at all? Or do you simply deny that such a thing as “right wing extremism” exists?

631 bluemerle  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:45:56pm

#628 Charles, are you saying you apply the label “right wing”, because neo-nazis and National Socialists do? Is there something more to it than this? I see their political views as completely incompatible with the right wing.

632 jester6  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:55:02pm

re: #629 Charles

The Nazi’s called themselves socialists. Their legislative and judicial agendas were clearly socialist - they were all aimed at doing what is best for the volk. The individual did not matter.

To that end they created many government programs to spread social risks across society. National healthcare and national pensions come to mind immediately.

They did not come to power because they promised racism and genocide. As a matter of fact, their racist and genocidal tendencies did not appear until well after Hitler and the Nazi’s had grafted themselves onto all aspects of German life.

Neo-Nazis and the people who call themselves National Socialists today are racists first and foremost. Whatever political philosophy individual Neo-Nazis flow from their racism. That is why you find anarchist, fascist and religious flavors of Neo-Nazism. The only thing holding them together is racism.

That is probably why Neo-Nazi’s have never gotten anywhere as a political movement in America. Had the real Nazi’s not built a power base with such a popular socialist agenda they never would have been able to implement genocide.

633 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:55:24pm

re: #628 Charles

Neo-Nazism and the National Socialist creeps are right wing extremists. They identify themselves as right wing; it’s easy to verify this, just check out their own statements. They are CERTAINLY NOT left wing extremists by any sense of the term.

It’s pointless to argue about this, because I’ve come to realize that a lot of people have blinders on.

Wait. They’re right-wing because the self identify as right-wing? Even though absolutely none of their beliefs find purchase, sympathy, or anything in common with right-wing ideology?

That makes absolutely no sense.

Again, what, exactly are the right-wing Nazi/neo-Nazi beliefs?

You’ve yet to answer this very simple question.

Also, you’ve still failed to address how even one of the 25 points of the Nazi party’s 25 point program is in any way whatsoever right-wing, nor have you addressed the 14 of those points that, as I listed previously, are very clearly left-wing ideology.

If you’re seeing blinders, it’s only because you’ve found a mirror.

634 forrest  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:55:48pm

I’m arguing that Nazis were left wing, which they clearly were, and I Haven’t heard any explanation from you as to how big government Nazis are anything like anarchists or even libertarians who are “right wing”. Saying “Nazis weren’t Socialists” isn’t an argument.

As for neo-nazis, I think most of them are too stupid to know what they are, and they don’t seem to have any real rhyme or reason except hating Jews or whatever. I think most of them are idiots who don’t understand much about the original Nazis except the race hate parts.

There are right wing extremists now. An example would be guys who reject the government in toto, go in to the woods to live free from any limits of government whatsoever. Some of these types go way out and do violent terrrorism because they don’t just reject the government, they downright hate it and everything associated with it. That’s my description of a far right extremist, and the do exist.

Nazis weren’t like that. They wanted control of society through big government. That’s left wing.

635 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:56:16pm

re: #629 Charles

The Nazis were not socialists.

Repeating your argument ad nauseum neither supports it nor makes it true.

636 born conservative  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:56:30pm

re: #630 Charles

Please define right wing.

637 jester6  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 1:58:48pm

re: #630 Charles

Yes. The old Posse Comitatus comes to mind. And there are many fundamental Christan groups in the US which are right wing extremists. We even have a few Israeli Jewish right wing groups with offices in the US. All of those I mentioned have been involved with terrorist activities and members have been imprissioned.

638 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:05:10pm

re: #635 chipbennett

Repeating your argument ad nauseum neither supports it nor makes it true.

The Nazis were not socialists.

639 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:08:33pm

re: #630 Charles

A question for you folks who want to keep arguing that neo-Nazis are “left wing:”

Are there any extremist groups you WOULD call “right wing?” Any at all? Or do you simply deny that such a thing as “right wing extremism” exists?

Right-wing extremism certainly exists, just as left-wing extremists exists.

Since the principle right-left spectrum is smaller government/power of the individual versus larger government/power of the collective, it follows that the extreme right-wing position would be no government/individual as ultimate authority, and that the extreme left-wing position would be maximumgovernment/state as the ultimate authority.

Right-wing extremist groups? Not so much. Rightwing extremism tends toward the lone wolf, rather than formal organization. However, one could make the argument in some cases. For instance, the wackos who attempt to claim sovereignty from the U.S. legal system (the ones who claim the U.S. has no jurisdiction in levying taxes, license fees, etc.) would aptly be labeled as having an extremist right-wing view.

Do right-wing extremists exist? Absolutely. In my opinion, right-wing extremists tend to be of the “vigilante justice” types (as opposed to the left-wing, anti-government/pro-chaos (think Bill Ayers) left-wing extremists). Anti-abortion bombers (think Eric Rudolph) would fall in this category.

(Note: Timothy McVeigh much more closely resembles Bill Ayers than he does Eric Rudolph.)

My primary disagreement is with lumping in white supremacists as “right-wing” extremists, when they tend not to hold any right-wing beliefs, at all.

640 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:11:38pm

re: #639 chipbennett

My primary disagreement is with lumping in white supremacists as “right-wing” extremists, when they tend not to hold any right-wing beliefs, at all.

The vast majority of white supremacists are right wing extremists. I don’t know of a single one who doesn’t fit that description.

641 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:13:03pm

re: #639 chipbennett

Right-wing extremist groups? Not so much. Rightwing extremism tends toward the lone wolf, rather than formal organization.

Really? So you wouldn’t even class militias, Christian Identity, or Posse Comitatus as right wing extremist groups? Interesting.

642 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:19:42pm

re: #638 Charles

The Nazis were not socialists.

10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:
12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries.
14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions… The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: …b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The good of the state before the good of the individual.
25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws…

643 thatemailname  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:20:45pm

But keep in mind that the DHS report itself was prefaced with this language, on page 2:

The DHS/Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) has no specific information that domestic rightwing terrorists are currently planning acts of violence

The issue with the report isn’t whether or not “right wing extremists” exist. Of course they exist. Extremists of all political persuasions exist. The issue is, is the report justified in the statements and characterizations that it makes. In a word, is the report rational? I say it is not.

644 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:21:36pm

re: #641 Charles

Really? So you wouldn’t even class militias, Christian Identity, or Posse Comitatus as right wing extremist groups? Interesting.

Militias, especially, absolutely not. Right-wing, yes. Extremist, no. (Unless you believe the Constitution itself to be extremist.)

Why would you consider Christian Identity as right-wing? (Again, racism is not right-wing.

I admit to not knowing much about Posse Comitatus.

645 thatemailname  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:22:11pm

re: #638 Charles

The Nazis were not socialists.

That’s interesting. The “National Socialists” weren’t socialists. I wonder what they were.

646 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:22:39pm

Charles @630:

Are there any extremist groups you WOULD call “right wing?” Any at all? Or do you simply deny that such a thing as “right wing extremism” exists?

I don’t necessarily agree that any run-of-the-mill neo-Nazi is by definition “of the left,” but I do find fairly compelling many of the arguments about the better fit of National Socialism and Fascism in general on the leftie end of the political spectrum that are made by Jonah Goldberg in his book “Liberal Fascism.”

As far as any right-wing extremist groups extant today, none come to mind to the extent that I would identify them as generally holding with my (fairly strong) conservative value set. I think there is a tendency (in the United States, at least) to unfairly consider groups that are made up of religious zealots, overt racists and rabid anti-semites on the right simply because these groups are perceived as being against many of the things the Democrat party and the left in general stands for. That (#1) doesn’t make the Democrats or the left necessary correct as to any particular issue or (#2) mean that the folks who make up these groups are right-wing in some objective sense.

As for the possibility that there could be right-wing extremist groups out there somewhere- anything is possible. And, I’ll adopt Justice Potter Stewart’s definition of one- I’ll know it when I see it. Repeating what I said last night, I see nothing that makes the nut up in Maine who the article that started this thread was written about a right-wing nut.

Sometimes a nut, Charles, is just a nut.


D. Edgren

647 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:22:47pm

re: #645 thatemailname

That’s interesting. The “National Socialists” weren’t socialists. I wonder what they were.

The Nazis were not socialists.

648 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:22:57pm

re: #640 Charles

What makes white supremacists right-wing?

Racism is not right-wing.

649 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:24:50pm

re: #644 chipbennett

Militias, especially, absolutely not. Right-wing, yes. Extremist, no. (Unless you believe the Constitution itself to be extremist.)

Militias aren’t extremist. Cool. Now we’re starting to see where you’re really coming from.

Why would you consider Christian Identity as right-wing? (Again, racism is not right-wing.

Because Christian Identity is a far right extremist group, that’s why. You’re the only person I’ve ever encountered who tried to deny it.

650 CEQAttorney  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:26:54pm

re: #638 Charles

The Nazis were not socialists.

Actually, Charles, they are socialists. They are, however, rightwing socialists rather than leftwing socialists.

What people here do not understand is that as you travel down the political path in either left or right, you will end up with a tyrannical government.

It is simply the difference between Authoritarianism and Totalitarianism.

I know it is seems hard for some to believe, but you can become too conservative.

651 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:28:11pm

I’m out of this discussion. Feel free to sling some more insults at me; I can’t continue arguing with people who think militias aren’t extreme and Christian Identity isn’t a far right group.

652 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:28:31pm

re: #647 Charles

The Nazis were not socialists.

You keep saying it, and I keep refuting it with their actual beliefs that are, in fact, socialist.

Are you even reading those beliefs, or has the fingers-in-the-ears routine morphed into hands-over-the-eyes?

653 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:29:17pm

The Nazis were not socialists.

654 forrest  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:36:58pm

For the record, I haven’t insulted Charles once.

I’m just getting sick of people, especially leftist academics, getting away with labeling Nazis as the ultimate example of “right wing” when they were actually self-identified socialists who also acted as big government, command economy socialists. For example, “people’s car” has a socialist ring to it, because it was a classic public/private transitional socialist project. Same goes for the Autobahn. The evidence goes on and on that Nazis were leftists.

655 forrest  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:38:23pm

No, the Nazis were socialist. (alright, I’ll stop now)

656 CEQAttorney  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:42:26pm

re: #651 Charles

I’m out of this discussion. Feel free to sling some more insults at me; I can’t continue arguing with people who think militias aren’t extreme and Christian Identity isn’t a far right group.

Well, I am sorry that you are leaving. I personally would not insult you and am eager to engage in a conversation.

Nonetheless, Nazism is a form of socialism. In Nazism, the government controlled the outcome of production. The Volkwagen Kafer existed because Hitler ordered it to be built.

That being said, it is a “right” form of socialism rather than a “left” form of socialism. People need to realize that socialism, in of itself, is merely the government control of private industry or the means of production. It, in of itself, is neither left nor right.

However, I will say that liberals (or the left) has been more accepting of socialism than the right. Primarily, I think this is because the right’s socialism is closely aligned with Nazism and conservatives, as a whole, want nothing to do with Nazism, while the left’s socialism, communism has not been portrayed as a source of evil.

657 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 2:49:51pm

re: #651 Charles

I’m out of this discussion. Feel free to sling some more insults at me; I can’t continue arguing with people who think militias aren’t extreme and Christian Identity isn’t a far right group.

The US Constitution and the US Code provides for the militia:

The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.

Why is it that you believe that a militia is inherently extremist?

658 bluemerle  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 3:56:26pm

re: #651 Charles

I’m out of this discussion. Feel free to sling some more insults at me; I can’t continue arguing with people who think militias aren’t extreme and Christian Identity isn’t a far right group.

I keep looking for your argument that this is the case. All I find is assertion and indignance that anyone would expect an argument to be made, and not merely accept this as axiomatic.

659 Emerald  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 5:36:06pm

re: #657 chipbennett

Why is it that you believe that a militia is inherently extremist?


So, are you that ignorant of what the modern militias are, or are you a supporter of the violent crimes they commit to fund their race wars?

660 Tantor  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 5:36:47pm

Charles: “Calling him a “left winger” is ridiculous. These views — white supremacism, neo-Nazism — can only be described as “extreme right wing.” You may not like it, but if you identify with and feel it necessary to defend the term “right wing” to the point where you won’t even acknowledge simple facts, the word for that is “denial.”“

I don’t know that the wannabe bomber has an identifiable left or right wing bias. He just looks nuts to me. The Left can certainly be white supremacists. For example, the Soviet Union ruled over many races, but only white people made it to the Supreme Soviet. Likewise, Che Guevara was an Argentinian of European descent who shared the racism of his class. Socialist Cuba is ruled by white people of European descent while brown people are marginalized and denied positions of power. Cuban jails are full of mostly brown people. The Cuban prostitutes are mostly brown.

Your spending a lot of your credibility on this thread by denying the facts which rebut your position that Nazis are right wing.

661 under  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 5:58:50pm

I’m having a little trouble following the linkage in Charles post. I don’t know of anyone who has suggested that DHS shouldn’t produce a report on right-wing extremists groups and potential recruitment. (I’m assuming that Charles’ post is in response to objections to the DHS report.) Regardless, I’m sure that others will make the argument.

First, I’ll take a wild guess and say the original intent of the DHS report was to enlighten law enforcement on right-wing extremists. Unfortunately, the final report wasn’t published under the Bush administration. Had it been, I’m sure that it would have helped law enforcement identify potential dirty bombers. I would say that an admiration of Hitler, a “prominently displayed flag with swastika” and a collection of literature on how to build dirty bombs, along with wife abuse, would be good indicators to put into the report Linkage to extremists groups would definitely be another; although I do wonder why he was “linked” and not an actual member. Perhaps he was so wacko, even the extremists groups didn’t want him as a member. It would be interesting to see the list of extremists groups this guy had links to. Are we using the word “terrorist’ in the usual sense or are we talking about DHS’s current definition … whatever that is?

I’m sure the word will be “adjusted” to fit the current climate. It’s fortunate that Cummings was killed a couple of months ago before the Tea Parties began. Since all the participants there held beliefs identified by DHS as shared by extremists, DHS may have found “linkage” if Cummings had been within a few blocks of a demonstration. I find it very hard to picture Cummings attending a pro-life rally or sitting around discussing generational theft, but apparently he became an extremist anyway.

The problem I have with Charles’ post is that the Cummings case has nothing to do with what conservatives find objectionable about the DHS report. I would be willing to agree with the correlation if it could be demonstrated that Tea Party participants tended to adore Hitler, wear arm bands with swastikas, read literature on how to build dirty bombs, and abuse their spouses. Parts of the DHS report would make Tea Parties a virtual breeding ground for terrorists—perhaps a sort of more passive western equivalent to an Al Qaeda training camp.

Anyway, I see the DHS report as one that probably started out under good intentions but,through a little creative writing, now reflects the far left view that anyone who disagrees with the current Obama/Democrat government is a potential threat. In the far left’s collective mind, there is a real threat. If the number of those who disapprove of the current government continues to grow, the left’s ideal government will fall … at election time. To the far left, that’s an act of terrorism and in some ways more of a current threat than jihadists.

662 Tantor  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 6:20:22pm

Charles: “National Socialism, as applied to Nazism and neo-Nazism, is NOT a left wing ideology, and it is NOT socialism. Socialism promotes a classless society — Nazism is rigidly class-oriented and deeply racist.”

One of the principles of Nazism was Volksgemeinschaft, the attainment of a classless society.

Charles: “Socialism promotes redistribution of wealth — Nazism consolidated wealth into the hands of big industrialists and bankers.”

Nazism promoted the idea of a Volkstaat, a welfare state dedicated to promote those of the Aryan race. When the Nazis invaded Poland, they went into Jewish businesses, told the Jewish owners to leave, and gave them to German citizens. The Nazis, as everyone knows, redistributed wealth on a gargantuan scale, right down to the gold in the teeth of their Jewish victims and the hair on their heads.

Charles: “Socialism promotes the end of national states — Nazism was the ultimate patriotic/nationalistic society.”

That’s your interpretation, not shared by the many socialist parties in various states like Venezuela, Bolivia, Saddam’s Iraq, China, North Korea, Vietnam, et al. All of these countries are/were socialist while none of them pay anything but lip service to expanding their socialist program beyond their borders. The reason Hitler improved on socialism with National Socialism was that he discovered that nationalism had a stronger pull with the workers than pure socialism.


Charles: “I could go on. The idea that National Socialism was equivalent to Marxism is ludicrous and wrong. This was and is a right wing ideology to its core.”

Nazism was both anti-Marxist and anti-capitalist. Hitler thought Marxism was a Jewish conspiracy, so he promoted Nazism as a non-Jewish socialism. Hitler was inspired by the success of Mussolini’s Fascists, a variant of the socialism, and copied much of their program and tactics.

Charles, you need to rethink your position on this.

663 chipbennett  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 6:20:51pm

re: #659 Emerald

So, are you that ignorant of what the modern militias are, or are you a supporter of the violent crimes they commit to fund their race wars?

Every single militia in the country? Really?

Yeah, you’re going to have to cite some sources to back that up.

Even the MIAC militia hit-job didn’t try to go that far. To summarize their findings:

The report indicates that, at its peak, the “militia movement” included some 850 groups; yet, it identifies only 10 “noteworthy” militia events between 1995 and 1999, 8 “noteworthy” militia events between 2000 and 2008, and indicates that only 60 “rightwing extremist” plots were uncovered between 1995 and 2005…

(Further diminishing the report’s faulty conflation, two of the “noteworthy” incidents aren’t applicable: the 1996 bombing of Atlanta Olympic Park by lone-acting Eric Rudolph, and the 2008 mailing of anti-New World Order propaganda to National Guard/Reserve facilities, with which the report fabricates a whole-cloth connection to hoax-anthrax mailings to state governors’ offices.)

In ten years, from up to 850 identified militia groups, only 16 “noteworthy” events were documented. In that time period, 60 “rightwing extremist” plots were uncovered - though even the MIAC report couldn’t go so far as to say all were militia-related.

Note that those numbers also lump together militia-linked extremists and white-supremacist-linked extremists. Militias != white supremacist groups.

So, again, do you care to cite sources to support your claim that all militias commit violent crimes to support race wars?

664 Tantor  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 9:00:05pm

Charles: “I can’t continue arguing with people who think militias aren’t extreme ….”

I can’t speak for all the militias. I have a fleeting acquaintance with a militia in Illinois who allowed me to shoot on their firing range. They seemed about as dangerous as a bowling team. Instead of bowling, or more probably in addition to bowling, they like to go to the range and shoot. They call themselves a militia instead of The Lucky Strikes. The Left has made them bogey men. You’re buying into their bogey man hype.

665 Salamantis  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:10:10pm

re: #633 chipbennett

Wait. They’re right-wing because the self identify as right-wing? Even though absolutely none of their beliefs find purchase, sympathy, or anything in common with right-wing ideology?

That makes absolutely no sense.

Again, what, exactly are the right-wing Nazi/neo-Nazi beliefs?

You’ve yet to answer this very simple question.

Also, you’ve still failed to address how even one of the 25 points of the Nazi party’s 25 point program is in any way whatsoever right-wing, nor have you addressed the 14 of those points that, as I listed previously, are very clearly left-wing ideology.

If you’re seeing blinders, it’s only because you’ve found a mirror.

chipbennett is committing what is commonly known in logic as the No True Scotsman fallacy:

[Link: www.logicalfallacies.info…]

666 Salamantis  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:15:56pm

re: #662 Tantor

Tantor, Nazi Germany planned to be classless by the simple expedient of killing off Jews, Gypsies, and all other people in Germany who were not members of the Aryan Volkish tribes.

667 Salamantis  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:31:54pm

re: #662 Tantor

Also, when you kill entire classes of people, it is quite natural for those who kill them to seize their propery - their wealth.

Venezuela is trying to ally with Ecuador and put the squeeze on Peru. Chavez wants to influence or control a wider area, and has compared himself to Simon Bolivar. Saddam tried to seize the oilfields of western Iran and attempted to annex Kuwait. Assad is engaged in an ongoing endeavor to vassalize Lebanon. China seized Tibet and continues to eye Taiwan, and demanded (and received) control of Hong Kong and Shanghai. North Korea would conquer and assimilate South Korea if they could. Cuba exported its revolution into Nicaragua, Angola, and Grenada, among other places. And of course the Soviet Union exported theirs globally.

Mussolini was a corporatist and a syndicalist. The government didn’t seize the industry in Italy, but controlled them, by means of fascist guilds. Hitler’s Reich did much the same thing. There was nationalism in Fascist Italy, too - a desire to return to the glories of the Roman Empire. And of course they, along with the Nazis, invaded Northern Africa. Hitler morphed German nationalism into racism by appealing to the concept of indigenous Volkish Aryan tribes as inherently superior, and biologically destined to rule over the inferior races, defined as anyone else. His genocidal antipathies were focused upon Jews and Gypsies, but included blacks and asians also.

668 ArdentCapitalist  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:17:38am

re: #586 meh130

Excellent post my good fellow.

669 ArdentCapitalist  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:45:28am

re: #609 Charles

OK, folks. Go right ahead and believe things that aren’t true, if they comfort you and help you to feel like you’re being victimized. I’m finished trying to discuss this with ideologues.

I think what a lot of people are simply trying to get across, Charles, is that Nazism was most certainly a socialist movement. Why you doubt this somewhat of a mystery to me, seeing as they called themselves the National Socialist party. Hitler knew that to be politically successful he had to wrap his socialist ideology around a strong German-centric nationalist core. Just because the nazi movement was racist through and through does not mask the fact that it was also a socialist ideology.

I think what people are simply trying to get across here is that “right wing” folks such as myself and others on this forum that hold politically conservative values do not want to be confused with every jackass who plans or commits some form of violence. I will venture to say that conservatives hold dear a philosophy of the value and sanctity of the individual, and as such, identify themselves as “right wing.” The point I was trying to make in my long post above is that as a conservative with a good deal of agreement with the libertarian folks, I find it scary that there is a trend lately to label ALL violent extremists as “right wing.” We can all agree that violent extremism is undesirable, but I see a bigger trend lately that all things undesirable are being marginalized as “right wing” so as to isolate and attack this administration’s political opponents. That, I’m afraid, looks a bit too familiar to extremist political movements of the past century.

670 godfrey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:33:50am

re: #392 Bobblehead

Until his resignation in 1533, Thomas More felt good about applying the state’s penalty for heresy. English heresy laws dated back centuries: Church courts ruled, handed over the convicted, and the state executed them. As Henry Tudor’s Lord Chancellor (~attorney general), More applied these penalties. Evidently he did so with satisfaction, even publishing on the matter. It’s hard not to see parallels with modern theocratic regimes.

Thank God for the disestablishment of religion.

671 zeebeach  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:05:18am

Question:

How many of you here consider “Liberal Fascism” an oxymoron? (if any)

672 Emerald  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:11:36am

re: #663 chipbennett

So, again, do you care to cite sources to support your claim that all militias commit violent crimes to support race wars?


What a wonderfully pathetic argument! Of course, I never said all militias resort to that, but the only way you can counter the fact that there are racist right-wing extremists is to resort to bit of blatant lying!

673 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:17:49am
chipbennett is committing what is commonly known in logic as the No True Scotsman fallacy:

Er, no. My argument is no such thing; rather, my argument is that me calling myself a leftwinger doesn’t make the statement true simply because I said it. Likewise, a white supremacist group self-identifying as rightwing doesn’t make the statement true simply because I said it.

Regardless of whether or not such groups self-identify as “rightwing”, their stated beliefs refute such identification. They are socialists, ergo, leftwing.

674 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:28:00am

re: #672 Emerald

What a wonderfully pathetic argument! Of course, I never said all militias resort to that, but the only way you can counter the fact that there are racist right-wing extremists is to resort to bit of blatant lying!

Now who’s being revisionist? Let’s recap, shall we?

First, Charles establishes his beliefs that all militias are extreme.

re: #651 Charles

I’m out of this discussion. Feel free to sling some more insults at me; I can’t continue arguing with people who think militias aren’t extreme and Christian Identity isn’t a far right group.

Second, I question why he believes that a militia is inherently extremist.

re: #657 chipbennett

Why is it that you believe that a militia is inherently extremist?

Third, you - and here’s the critical part - without qualification, question whether modern militias are something about which i am ignorant, and claim that “they” (basic grammatic structure and reading comprehension: “they” is used as a pronoun for the still-without-qualification “militias”) commit violent crimes to fund “their” (basic grammatic structure and reading comprehension: “their” is used as a pronoun for the still-without-qualification “militias”) race wars.

re: #659 Emerald

So, are you that ignorant of what the modern militias are, or are you a supporter of the violent crimes they commit to fund their race wars?

Then, making the logical conclusion - based on your own words - that you believe that militias commit violent crimes in order to fund race wars, questioned you on that belief. Your response? To claim that you never said any such thing.

So, where, again, is the blatant lying?

675 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:48:50am
Tantor, Nazi Germany planned to be classless by the simple expedient of killing off Jews, Gypsies, and all other people in Germany who were not members of the Aryan Volkish tribes.

Are you somehow trying to counter Tantor’s point?

676 Emerald  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:52:15am

re: #674 chipbennett


So, where, again, is the blatant lying?

You claimed I said every militia is a racist organization. I never said any such thing, a point I made in the post you’re responding to, and which you are now trying to ignore.

You lied about what I said. You changed the argument to defend your position. You are busted.

677 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:59:23am

re: #676 Emerald

You claimed I said every militia is a racist organization. I never said any such thing, a point I made in the post you’re responding to, and which you are now trying to ignore.

You lied about what I said. You changed the argument to defend your position. You are busted.

I didn’t lie about what you said; rather, I quoted your own words. I changed no argument; rather, you are the one now changing words to suit your needs (and failed argument).

You said “militias”, which, in context of the statement, was equivalent to all militias. In context, it could not have been otherwise. Your own quotes prove me to be speaking truth.

I’d love to see you explain how it could be otherwise.

678 Emerald  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:37:53am

re: #677 chipbennett

I didn’t lie about what you said; rather, I quoted your own words.


Bullshit. My original post is less than 30 words long. Point out where the word “all” is in it. You can’t, because you added it to my post to in a lame-assed attempt to change what I said.

679 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:00:35am

re: #678 Emerald

Bullshit. My original post is less than 30 words long. Point out where the word “all” is in it. You can’t, because you added it to my post to in a lame-assed attempt to change what I said.

Again, given the context, “all” is both implied and appropriate.

Do please try to explain how it isn’t; that is, how your statement either explicitly or implicitly applied only to some militias.

Hint: you can’t.

You are trying, after the fact, in a lame attempt to change what you said.

680 Emerald  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:21:10am

re: #679 chipbennett
Where in my post did I use the word “all”? You are the one who “quoted” what I said by adding words, even emphasizing it, to change my point into something else.

There are militias that are racist, criminal groups. They are right-wing. They are extremists. The real question is why you are so determined to lie about it and the danger they pose.

681 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:24:48am
682 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:48:33am

re: #681 jester6

Get off my website.

683 Solomon2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:02:08am

I don’t like this list of materials that the police found. Those who think that there wasn’t a threat because thorium is just mildly radioactive don’t know enough about nuclear engineering to realize just what he could be doing with this stuff: gearing up to produce, and then weaponize, highly radioactive isotopes. Question is, was he alone or was he working in a group?

684 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:19:34am

re: #680 Emerald

Where in my post did I use the word “all”? You are the one who “quoted” what I said by adding words, even emphasizing it, to change my point into something else.

Are you having reading comprehension issues?

I put your quote in context - a context that clearly indicated that the topic of discussion was the inherent extremism of militias. Inherent implies all. Your response didn’t in any way indicate that your allegation of violent crimes committed by militias in order to fund race wars somehow narrowed that context.

So, show me where in your comment you specified anything but “all”.

There are militias that are racist, criminal groups. They are right-wing. They are extremists. The real question is why you are so determined to lie about it and the danger they pose.

Please identify the racist militias. (Note: I’m not claiming they don’t exist; I’m just curious whom you would identify as a racist militia.)

Most racist groups are radical leftists - including the neo-Nazis and other Hitler sympathizers (such as the one who founded Posse Comitatus, for example).

685 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:16:11pm

re: #673 chipbennett

Er, no. My argument is no such thing; rather, my argument is that me calling myself a leftwinger doesn’t make the statement true simply because I said it. Likewise, a white supremacist group self-identifying as rightwing doesn’t make the statement true simply because I said it.

Regardless of whether or not such groups self-identify as “rightwing”, their stated beliefs refute such identification. They are socialists, ergo, leftwing.

Those on the right wish to dissociate themselves from Nazis and Fascists for the same reason that many Christians wish to disown those Christians who collaborated with the Third Reich, and more recently, Fred Phelps’ Westboro Baptist Church and the Church of Jesus Christ Christian in Idaho - because they find them to be repugnant and the very association to be distressingly indicting of their own ideologies.

But the energy expended upon such vociferous denials would be better and more responsibly spent upon introspection and clarification, to ensure that such mutant abominations do not issue out of one’s own ideology in the future, as the editors of Christianity Today have done vis-a-vis the Christian Third Reich collaborators:

[Link: www.christianhistorytimeline.com…]

686 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:21:06pm

And Chip, you do not get to choose for others what they are and are not, regardless of what they themselves claim to be; when they define themselves as adherents of religions or political ideologies, and indeed practice observable actions and profess observable beliefs that are identifiable as belonging to those religions or ideologies, then their self-identification must be taken at face value, and not just dismissed or denied simply because they also engage in execrable or odious practices of which you do not approve.

687 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:26:15pm

re: #686 Salamantis

And Chip, you do not get to choose for others what they are and are not, regardless of what they themselves claim to be; when they define themselves as adherents of religions or political ideologies, and indeed practice observable actions and profess observable beliefs that are identifiable as belonging to those religions or ideologies, then their self-identification must be taken at face value, and not just dismissed or denied simply because they also engage in execrable or odious practices of which you do not approve.

That’s exactly what I’ve been saying.

The neo-Nazis define themselves as adherents of a socialist political ideology.

The bastardization of Christianity to which some of these white supremacist groups cling has nothing to do with genuine Christianity, and can in no way be said to have been borne out of genuine Christianity.

So, what exactly is your point?

688 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:31:39pm

re: #685 Salamantis

Those on the right wish to dissociate themselves from Nazis and Fascists for the same reason that many Christians wish to disown those Christians who collaborated with the Third Reich, and more recently, Fred Phelps’ Westboro Baptist Church and the Church of Jesus Christ Christian in Idaho - because they find them to be repugnant and the very association to be distressingly indicting of their own ideologies.

But the energy expended upon such vociferous denials would be better and more responsibly spent upon introspection and clarification, to ensure that such mutant abominations do not issue out of one’s own ideology in the future, as the editors of Christianity Today have done vis-a-vis the Christian Third Reich collaborators:

[Link: www.christianhistorytimeline.com…]

An inherently valid point, but not really germane to the discussion - unless you would claim that mainline Christians today support such rhetoric?

689 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:41:45pm

re: #688 chipbennett

An inherently valid point, but not really germane to the discussion - unless you would claim that mainline Christians today support such rhetoric?

No, my point is that mainline Christians today acknowledge and admit that such egregious errors of judgment indeed occurred and that they entailed horrific ramifications express regret and remorse for the errors of their admitted co-religionists, and endeavor to atone for them by understanding the circumstances and conditions that led to them, so that such circumstances and conditions can be avoided in the future, and the errors will never again be repeated.

In the particular circumstance to which I alluded, they have learned to be wary of charismatic politicians possessing vile agendas who wink, nod and smile in their general direction.

690 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:53:09pm

re: #687 chipbennett

That’s exactly what I’ve been saying.

The neo-Nazis define themselves as adherents of a socialist political ideology.

But fascists are NATIONAL socialists, whereas communists are INTERNATIONAL socialists; see my posts # 613 and 614 for the historical and philosophocal roots of both. They are different strains of collectivism that are opposed to the moderate individualism of constitutional democracy. There is also such a thing as extreme individualism; it is called anarchism.

The bastardization of Christianity to which some of these white supremacist groups cling has nothing to do with genuine Christianity, and can in no way be said to have been borne out of genuine Christianity.

So, what exactly is your point?

Here you have completely missed my point in #686, and instead flee back to the No True Scotsman fallacy - in this case, the No True Christian fallacy.

The Editors of Christianity Today showed great moral courage and integrity in accepting the association of Third Reich German Christians with Nazism, and laboring to ensure that such an odious and execrable nexus would not be repeated; that same courage and integrity should be applied by all honest decent Christians of good faith and conscience to the contemporary mutant racist strands of Christianity which I mentioned - and to the Ku Klux Klan, too. After all, they did not hold crescent-burnings.

691 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:04:05pm

re: #690 Salamantis

Here you have completely missed my point in #686, and instead flee back to the No True Scotsman fallacy - in this case, the No True Christian fallacy.

The Editors of Christianity Today showed great moral courage and integrity in accepting the association of Third Reich German Christians with Nazism, and laboring to ensure that such an odious and execrable nexus would not be repeated; that same courage and integrity should be applied by all honest decent Christians of good faith and conscience to the contemporary mutant racist strands of Christianity which I mentioned - and to the Ku Klux Klan, too. After all, they did not hold crescent-burnings.

I’ll admit to not knowing a great deal about Christian Identity. I am somewhat familiar with it - just enough to know that it completely bastardizes Christian doctrine.

This isn’t “No True Scotsman”. An adherent of Christian Identity calling himself a Christian would be analogous to me, a devout, evangelical Christian calling myself a Muslim.

The case of Christians in the Third Reich is a completely different matter.

692 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:23:09pm

re: #691 chipbennett

I’ll admit to not knowing a great deal about Christian Identity. I am somewhat familiar with it - just enough to know that it completely bastardizes Christian doctrine.

This isn’t “No True Scotsman”. An adherent of Christian Identity calling himself a Christian would be analogous to me, a devout, evangelical Christian calling myself a Muslim.

The case of Christians in the Third Reich is a completely different matter.

No, because a Christian calling himself a Muslim would be a case of someone lying about being in one religion, while really believing in another (taqiyya), while members of Christian Identity are adherents of a violent virulent mutation of Christianity, but are Christians nonetheless, just like Al Qaedanism is a violent virulent Wahhab-Qutb mutation of Islam, but its members are nevertheless still Muslims.

693 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:24:15pm

re: #692 Salamantis

No, because a Christian calling himself a Muslim would be a case of someone lying about being in one religion, while really believing in another (taqiyya), while members of Christian Identity are adherents of a violent virulent mutation of Christianity, but are Christians nonetheless, just like Al Qaedanism is a violent virulent Wahhab-Qutb mutation of Islam, but its members are nevertheless still Muslims.

Adherents of Christian Identity are not Christians. Its beliefs are heretical. Call them Christian heretics if you wish, but not Christian.

694 Tantor  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:35:34pm

Salamantis: “Those on the right wish to dissociate themselves from Nazis and Fascists for the same reason that many Christians wish to disown those Christians who collaborated with the Third Reich, and more recently, Fred Phelps’ Westboro Baptist Church and the Church of Jesus Christ Christian in Idaho - because they find them to be repugnant and the very association to be distressingly indicting of their own ideologies.”

You have it exactly backwards. It is the liberals who are trying to distance themselves from their distant cousins, the Nazis and Fascists. The National Socialists were socialists. Calling themselves Socialists wasn’t some trick to hide a right wing character. What you saw was what you got: Socialism.

Mussolini started out as a socialist in Switzerland, where he had fled to avoid the draft. He joined the Marxian Socialist movement. Later, he worked for the local socialist party in Trento and edited its newspaper L’Avvenire del Lavoratore (“The Future of the Worker”). Mussolini became one of the leading socialists in Italy. After Mussolini created the Fascists and was their leader, he made a speech saying that he was a socialist, had always been a socialist, and would always be a socialist.

Now, it seems like if the leader of the Fascists calls himself a socialist, that might be a clue that the Fascists were socialists. However, maybe in the eyes of American liberals Mussolini was just a really cunning conservative who called himself a socialist to dissociate himself from the right wing and hide his secret conservative leanings, eh?

695 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:57:14pm

re: #693 chipbennett

Adherents of Christian Identity are not Christians. Its beliefs are heretical. Call them Christian heretics if you wish, but not Christian.

That’s YOUR definition; THEY define themselves differently. And as I stated in # 686, that is their prerogative.

696 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:03:45pm

re: #694 Tantor

Salamantis: “Those on the right wish to dissociate themselves from Nazis and Fascists for the same reason that many Christians wish to disown those Christians who collaborated with the Third Reich, and more recently, Fred Phelps’ Westboro Baptist Church and the Church of Jesus Christ Christian in Idaho - because they find them to be repugnant and the very association to be distressingly indicting of their own ideologies.”

You have it exactly backwards. It is the liberals who are trying to distance themselves from their distant cousins, the Nazis and Fascists. The National Socialists were socialists. Calling themselves Socialists wasn’t some trick to hide a right wing character. What you saw was what you got: Socialism.

Mussolini started out as a socialist in Switzerland, where he had fled to avoid the draft. He joined the Marxian Socialist movement. Later, he worked for the local socialist party in Trento and edited its newspaper L’Avvenire del Lavoratore (“The Future of the Worker”). Mussolini became one of the leading socialists in Italy. After Mussolini created the Fascists and was their leader, he made a speech saying that he was a socialist, had always been a socialist, and would always be a socialist.

Now, it seems like if the leader of the Fascists calls himself a socialist, that might be a clue that the Fascists were socialists. However, maybe in the eyes of American liberals Mussolini was just a really cunning conservative who called himself a socialist to dissociate himself from the right wing and hide his secret conservative leanings, eh?

Adolph Hitler told his chief of staff, General Gerhard Engel, that he would always remain a committed Catholic; he was lying, too. In both cases, they were using what was available and politically expedient.

But to be fair to Mussolini, he only signed on to Jewish genocide under duress. But he DID sign on to it. And he appealed to the past glory of the Roman Empire. That in and of itself was an appeal to tribalism, not universality, which labeled Mussolini a Right Hegelian Fascist, not a Left-Hegelian Socialist. Just as Hitler’s appeal to the racial supremacy of the Aryan Volkish tribes did (see #613 and 614).

697 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:07:55pm

And is anyone arguing that the Nipponese Imperial Empire, which believed that the Japanese were racially superior not just to Caucasians and to blacks, but also to other Asians, was anything but a proud member of the Fascist Axis Right?

698 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:31:27am
That’s YOUR definition; THEY define themselves differently. And as I stated in # 686, that is their prerogative.

What’s my definition?

No, Salamantis: Jesus Christ, in His Word, the Bible, defines Christianity.

CI are heretics. They are not Christians, because they do not adhere to Christian doctrine.

(By the way, I didn’t define “heretic”, either.)

699 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 2:14:07pm

re: #698 chipbennett

What’s my definition?

No, Salamantis: Jesus Christ, in His Word, the Bible, defines Christianity.

CI are heretics. They are not Christians, because they do not adhere to Christian doctrine.

(By the way, I didn’t define “heretic”, either.)

Yah, right shure…and the Protestants and the Catholics have considered each other to be heretics, too…just as many of the hundreds of Protestant denominations consider many other of the Protestant denominations to be heretical. So which one, out of all of them, is right? And if others who define themselves as Christians disagree with you, how to choose between you, when each of you are appealing to the same scriptures in differing ways?

The Ku Klux Klan, for instance, appeals to the story of Ham, who was cursed, along with all of his descendents, to perpetual slavery, for witnessing his father Noah’s naked drunkenness. As a sign of his cursed fate, Ham was burned by God with a mark. The Ku Klux Klan interprets that mark as blackness, noting that burned things blacken, and therefore consider blackness as God’s mark that someone is divinely fated and destined to be enslaved.


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