Video: Dawkins vs. Wright

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Two well-known figures in the public debate over the scientific theory of evolution, biologist Richard Dawkins and Wendy Wright (president of Concerned Women for America) square off for a fascinating glimpse into the glazed mind of a creationist.

Youtube Video

That’s part one; here’s part two, and if you can stand any more of Wright’s Stepford wife faux cheerfulness after this and want to see the rest of it, click through to YouTube and check out the “Related Videos” pane.

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840 comments
1 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 4:54:09pm

Ask and ye shall receive!

/sometimes

2 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 4:55:01pm
the glazed mind of a creationist

Krispy Kreamationists

3 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 4:57:44pm

re: #1 Salamantis

Ask and ye shall receive!

/sometimes

There's your trifecta. I was a little tiny bit disappointed because I was hoping it was going to be Dawkins vs. Reverend Wright.

4 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 4:59:08pm

Ah, gee.
I hate it when someone who seems like they would be such a nice person otherwise, turns out to be such a complete nutcase.

5 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 4:59:20pm

It's painful to listen to a non-scientist trying to convince a scientist that she has better information and evidence than scientists do.

6 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 4:59:48pm

Blackball!

7 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:00:51pm
8 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:01:15pm

re: #4 reine.de.tout

Ah, gee.
I hate it when someone who seems like they would be such a nice person otherwise, turns out to be such a complete nutcase.


I dated a woman like that. Or 2.
/

9 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:01:47pm

(Knowing that I will be assaulted mercilessly for this)

Well, she's a blonde. What did you expect?


///

10 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:02:23pm

re: #8 Cannadian Club Akbar

I dated a woman like that. Or 2.
/

They weren't Ms. Right-- they were Ms. Right Now, eh?

11 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:03:11pm

re: #7 taxfreekiller

Will get to do something like that some time soon to one of them here in Texas, odd duck this one, goes to Cuba, is a Laup Nor one, former Democrat, then a Libertarian now says he is a conservative Republican
and is a pure nut case, but has the 6,000 year talking point down.

So, these Dino's, why did they die off in just 6,000 years, would the bones not be some what closer to the top if that is true?

Don't forget the "God and/or Lucifer planted them to test the faith" dodge.

12 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:03:12pm

re: #4 reine.de.tout

Yeah. Spouses are a pain sometimes, aren't they. ///

13 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:03:33pm

re: #8 Cannadian Club Akbar

I dated a woman like that. Or 2.
/

I will admit that I dated many jackasses back in the day . . . but honestly do not recall ever dating somebody completely stupid.

14 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:03:53pm

re: #1 Salamantis

Ask and ye shall receive!

/sometimes

aka; Be careful what you wish for.

15 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:03:54pm

re: #12 calcajun

Yeah. Spouses are a pain sometimes, aren't they. ///

Ha.
Not mine.

16 Dekar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:04:09pm

That fake smile is chilling!

17 callahan23  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:04:40pm

re: #1 Salamantis

Ask and ye shall receive!

/sometimes

You've been heard by our Lizard master. /

Previous thread: #97 Salamantis
Well, we've had a nirther thread and an abortion thread; why don't we have an evolution thread and go for the trifecta?
/I'm game
18 Right Brain  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:06:26pm

Dawkins is such a closed minded bully one wonder why Wright agreed to do the interview at all; Mr. Dawkins seems to fetishize the word "fact" as if its mere utterance proves his point, and he says the word again and again, he is a boring ROM-brain, incapable of serious dialog.

19 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:06:44pm

Truthfully, I couldn't listen past 'teach the controversy'. Love and pixie dust. Sugar and spice and everthing nice.
Blech.

20 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:06:46pm

She reminds me of the love child of Katie Couric and Don McLeroy.

21 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:06:59pm

Not sure I can make it through the first one. Is this going to be on the test?

22 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:07:22pm

Morton's Demon, the Cartoon Version:
[Link: pandasthumb.org...]

23 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:08:03pm

re: #18 Right Brain

Dawkins is such a closed minded bully one wonder why Wright agreed to do the interview at all; Mr. Dawkins seems to fetishize the word "fact" as if its mere utterance proves his point, and he says the word again and again, he is a boring ROM-brain, incapable of serious dialog.

I only watched the first part; but I didn't notice any bullying. He seemed quite patient, imo, in the face of complete idiocy.

24 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:08:34pm

re: #16 Dekar

That fake smile is chilling!

That is the smile of a lady utterly convinced in the righteousness of her position-- utterly comfortable with her faith and all its tenants. It's probably the same type of smile you might see on the face of a witch-finder general, an inquisitor priest or a suicide bomber-- if their smiles weren't hidden some rag twisted round their heads.

Do not get comfortable in your faith. God has some nasty ways of kicking you out the the comfy chair.

25 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:08:42pm

She reminds me of Annette Benning's character in "American Beauty." Seems all there, but then...

26 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:08:51pm

I think this might be one of the most annoying interviews I've ever watched.

27 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:09:14pm

re: #18 Right Brain

Dawkins is such a closed minded bully one wonder why Wright agreed to do the interview at all; Mr. Dawkins seems to fetishize the word "fact" as if its mere utterance proves his point, and he says the word again and again, he is a boring ROM-brain, incapable of serious dialog.

Didn't see it that way at all.

28 fizzlogic  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:09:16pm

When your faith paints you into a corner of stupidity you have to start questioning the basis of your faith. People like Wright are partly the reason why I no longer have any faith in god.

29 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:09:19pm

re: #26 Charles

I think this might be one of the most annoying interviews I've ever watched.

It's prolly why most of us don't seem able to get past the first part.

30 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:09:22pm

Three minutes into video #1, and "glazed mind" appears to be a gross understatement.

31 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:09:25pm

re: #19 VioletTiger

Truthfully, I couldn't listen past 'teach the controversy'. Love and pixie dust. Sugar and spice and everthing nice.
Blech.

Teach the controversy... at a private religious school - as a non-required theology class.

32 callahan23  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:09:37pm

For this smiling, stupid bitch facts are censorship.
Good grief.
I am absolutely certain that that woman is a certifiable idiot.

33 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:09:45pm

"Show me the mermaids. Evolutionists bear the burden of convincing me!"

34 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:10:11pm

re: #19 VioletTiger

Truthfully, I couldn't listen past 'teach the controversy'. Love and pixie dust. Sugar and spice and everthing nice.
Blech.

I see a smile like that and all I think is "Fake! Fake! Fake!".

35 Bob Dillon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:10:28pm

Well, she sure has put the time into being able to babble BS.

Ms. Wright reminds me of a few of the Nuns I unfortunately crossed paths with back in the 40s at boarding school.

Dawkins is great and very patient with this profoundly ignorant woman.

36 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:10:29pm

re: #26 Charles

I think this might be one of the most annoying interviews I've ever watched.

Beats Matt Lauer and Tom Cruise from a few years ago?

37 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:10:36pm

This women in a cornucopia of stupid and obliviousness

38 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:11:23pm

re: #31 FrogMarch

Teach the controversy... at a private religious school - as a non-required theology class.

NO!
It is not necessary.
My daughter attends a private school associated with our faith, and she isn't taught any "controversy".
She is taught faith and theology in religion class; and she is taught science in science class; the two are perfectly compatible.

39 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:11:24pm

Which would be more painful--an interview with Orly Taitz or Wendy Wright?

40 KingKenrod  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:11:41pm
Wright’s Stepford wife faux cheerfulness

Her style reminds me of Naomi Wolf.

41 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:12:15pm

re: #18 Right Brain

Dawkins is such a closed minded bully one wonder why Wright agreed to do the interview at all; Mr. Dawkins seems to fetishize the word "fact" as if its mere utterance proves his point, and he says the word again and again, he is a boring ROM-brain, incapable of serious dialog.

Science is built on empirical facts. But when one truly open one's mind to the astonishing wonders of our universe that science reveals to us, its wondrous magnificence far surpasses any religiously inspired myth.

42 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:12:27pm

re: #39 VioletTiger

Which would be more painful--an interview with Orly Taitz or Wendy Wright?

Taitz...Wright...THUNDERDOME!

43 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:12:36pm

re: #29 reine.de.tout

It's prolly why most of us don't seem able to get past the first part.

I'm debating whether I want to try to watch it at all, it smells like a train wreck.

44 Dekar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:13:09pm

re: #26 Charles

I couldn't get past the first part ;/

45 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:13:29pm

re: #26 Charles

I think this might be one of the most annoying interviews I've ever watched.

Still watching/listening to #1, and I'm expecting her to begin sprinkling pixie dust any moment now.

46 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:13:52pm
and if you can stand any more of Wright’s Stepford wife faux cheerfulness after this and want to see the rest of it, click through to YouTube and check out the “Related Videos” pane pain.

FTFY

47 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:14:43pm

re: #39 VioletTiger

Which would be more painful--an interview with Orly Taitz or Wendy Wright?

That's like asking if one would rather be boiled in oil or sandblasted and dipped in alcohol.

48 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:15:11pm
49 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:15:26pm

re: #38 reine.de.tout

NO!
It is not necessary.
My daughter attends a private school associated with our faith, and she isn't taught any "controversy".
She is taught faith and theology in religion class; and she is taught science in science class; the two are perfectly compatible.

Quite Concur.

50 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:16:46pm

She actually said, "Where are the carcasses?"

51 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:17:02pm

I absolutely hate when they say the idea of evolution can be used to justify evil and inhumane treatment of other people.

Because we all know that in all of human history, there has never been any other philosophy using political, religious or economic reasons to justify atrocities. Nope, its just evolution.

Fucking idiots

52 brookly red  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:17:08pm

re: #33 jaunte

"Show me the mermaids. Evolutionists bear the burden of convincing me!"

Mermaids? Hmmm. (still waiting for the unicorn)

53 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:17:31pm

She lives in a magical fairyland.
She's very happy there.
She does not see any need whatsoever for "facts".

54 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:17:51pm

Argument from incredulity:
"If we evolved, there should be enough evidence to convince me. Since there isn't enough evidence to convince me, then we obviously didn't evolve."

55 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:17:57pm

Time to post this again, from Pope Benedict:

"Pope Benedict XVI recently restated his (and Pope John Paul's) argument. As MSNBC reported, Pope Benedict has referred to the debate between creationists and supporters of evolutionary theory as an "absurdity":

"They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other," the pope said. "This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such."
On the other hand, there are certain questions that evolutionary theory can never answer: "Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, 'Where does everything come from?'" Christians, thus, can learn truth from science, but scientists must learn to accept the limits of their own work. No scientific investigation can ever prove that God does not exist, or that He did not create the world, or even that man is only the sum of his physical parts."

Link

56 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:18:01pm

Good evening all,

I just finished sending some "fishy" emails to all my neighbors. Eh, what'd I miss?

57 callahan23  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:18:10pm

re: #30 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Three minutes into video #1, and "glazed mind" appears to be a gross understatement.

I couldn't stand more than three minutes myself.
I need - something - very - different - "Rob Zombie - Dragula"
/ my kind of erasing the stupid of Wendy Wright

58 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:19:03pm
59 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:19:26pm

re: #33 jaunte

"Show me the mermaids. Evolutionists bear the burden of convincing me!"

We keep them in the same place as the merbutlers, in merservants quarters.

60 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:19:49pm

re: #57 callahan23

That's a good one... but Metallica also features zombies - all nightmare long.

Youtube Video
61 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:20:15pm

re: #55 Ojoe

It might be helpful to find the links on the development of Creationism/ID and show that it is premised on a reaction to Evolution. In other words, it is a deductive construct--the facts are taken to fit the theory. It is an honest theory.

62 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:20:26pm
63 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:20:36pm

re: #58 buzzsawmonkey

Have you seen Homo Erectus, baby
Standing in the shadows?

heh...closet fan?

64 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:21:24pm

She also reminds me of that oblivious 'scientist' who was interviewed in the 'Creation Science Museum." Terminally, relentlessly pert and perky, yet rantingly, ravingly insane.

65 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:21:57pm

Someone, please tell me I didn't see an article by creationist Frank J. Tipler at Pajamas Media today, claiming that CO2 is wonderful and we need more of it?

Ugh. Glad I'm not still there to be aggravated about that.

66 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:22:25pm

"The philosophy of evolution"!
BINGO!
She just hit herself with some of that pixie dust!

/GAH, lady, would you PLEASE close your kimono!

67 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:22:32pm

re: #52 brookly red

Mermaids? Hmmm. (still waiting for the unicorn)

Ask avanti. He got a hopychange unicorn from Obama for his skill at spouting DNC talking points,

/kidding

68 tradewind  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:22:54pm

Don't worry about the silly lady, worry about your president's new science advisor: hold on to your infants.
[Link: www.cnsnews.com...]

69 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:22:55pm

None are so blind as those who will not see, and Wright is blind as a bat

"I dont see the evidence."

"Its in the museum, go look at it."

70 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:23:30pm

re: #59 CyanSnowHawk

We keep them in the same place as the merbutlers, in merservants quarters.

a very good friend of mine collects mermaid stuff...he has several thousand trinkets, artifacts etc...whatever

71 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:23:38pm

Aren't the car cases being crunched under the clunker program?

72 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:23:48pm

re: #65 Charles

Someone, please tell me I didn't see an article by creationist Frank J. Tipler at Pajamas Media today, claiming that CO2 is wonderful and we need more of it?

Ugh. Glad I'm not still there to be aggravated about that.

Bad, Deadly, Craziness. Is it just me or has America gone nuts this year?

73 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:24:18pm

re: #65 Charles

Someone, please tell me I didn't see an article by creationist Frank J. Tipler at Pajamas Media today, claiming that CO2 is wonderful and we need more of it?

Ugh. Glad I'm not still there to be aggravated about that.

I did...I surf there everyday...creeping lunacy

74 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:24:49pm

re: #65 Charles

Tipler:

"Those who want to reduce the use of fossil fuels are the mortal enemies of the biosphere. They must be stopped at all costs!"

Eleventy!!

75 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:25:52pm

She keeps saying all the evidence she sees only comes from drawing and illustrations because she doesn't want to see the fossils. Meanwhile, all her arguments come from the interpretation of one book.

GAAAH, THIS WOMAN IS INFURRIATING!

76 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:25:56pm
77 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:25:58pm

re: #65 Charles

Someone, please tell me I didn't see an article by creationist Frank J. Tipler at Pajamas Media today, claiming that CO2 is wonderful and we need more of it?

Ugh. Glad I'm not still there to be aggravated about that.

Sounds like someone so angered by the left that they instinctively advocate the opposite of whatever the left advocates. Very Stupid.

78 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:26:16pm

Personally, I'm not going to even watch this. After a while, this parade of creationist idiots becomes like background music, the same progression of faulty thoughts and bad science, over and over, which is nothing short of dishonesty, or possibly mental illness.

And this person would be the first sort who would label Islam as a backward religion and culture (which they are) but that would be like the kettle calling the pot black.

What a waste of bandwidth.

79 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:26:24pm

re: #38 reine.de.tout

NO!
It is not necessary.
My daughter attends a private school associated with our faith, and she isn't taught any "controversy".
She is taught faith and theology in religion class; and she is taught science in science class; the two are perfectly compatible.

My point was that it doesn't belong in the public school system. (where the controversy exists)
I'm glad she's getting science at a private religious school. do you know if it's evolutionary science?
& -- I never said they were not compatible.

80 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:26:43pm

how many are there?...these people and their nirther cousins are rapidly becoming the voice of the GOP...these are the people that will defeat BO...yikes!

81 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:26:49pm

re: #64 Salamantis

Terminally, relentlessly pert and perky, yet rantingly, ravingly insane.

Sounds like some lab assistants I knew back in school.

82 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:27:13pm

Ouch. Painful.

83 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:27:34pm

re: #65 Charles

I'm not sure about more, but CO2 is part of the carbon cycle & all life depends on it. Chlorophyl has lots of carbon molecules for instance, and plants pull carbon right out of the air.

So CO2 is really wonderful.

84 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:27:43pm

re: #76 buzzsawmonkey

Maybe it's Dawkins' British accent, but I am envisioning him as John Cleese, and Wendy Wright as Graham Chapman, with Cleese saying, "Right--now, here are the fossils, and this is the evidence," and Chapman saying, "No, it isn't."

No-- from Blackadder:

"Baldrick, to you, the Renaissance was something that happened to other people?"

85 SixDegrees  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:27:49pm

re: #65 Charles

Someone, please tell me I didn't see an article by creationist Frank J. Tipler at Pajamas Media today, claiming that CO2 is wonderful and we need more of it?

Ugh. Glad I'm not still there to be aggravated about that.

It's Crazy Town over there, and getting worse by the day. It makes you wonder where their financing is coming from.

86 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:28:01pm

re: #50 Charles

She actually said, "Where are the carcasses?"

That's so easy. I eated them burned them in my gas tank!

87 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:28:36pm

re: #85 SixDegrees

It's Crazy Town over there, and getting worse by the day. It makes you wonder where their financing is coming from.

From Pajamas to Straight-jacket, eh?

88 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:29:10pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

Ouch. Painful.

no shit...how strong are they?...it's taking on a sureal quality...I mean these people vote

89 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:29:25pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

Sounds like someone so angered by the left that they instinctively advocate the opposite of whatever the left advocates. Very Stupid.

Barack Obama should state, in a speech, that the sun is going to come up in the east tomorrow.

My point is, the sooner these people make complete and public asses of themselves, the sooner the world can get past them.

90 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:30:06pm

re: #61 calcajun

Well the creation story in Genesis predates the theory of evolution & so this creationism stuff can't only come from a reaction to Darwin and all.

91 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:30:11pm

re: #79 FrogMarch

My point was that it doesn't belong in the public school system. (where the controversy exists)
I'm glad she's getting science at a private religious school. do you know if it's evolutionary science?
& -- I never said they were not compatible.

No you did not say they were not compatible, I did not intend to indicate you had implied that. My comment was poorly written, sorry.

Yes, she is getting evolutionary science, of course.

92 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:30:13pm

re: #70 albusteve

a very good friend of mine collects mermaid stuff...he has several thousand trinkets, artifacts etc...whatever

Does he has some hidden away that she only shows to special friends?

//

93 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:30:21pm

Here is a comeback Dawkins could use--

"You make some interesting points, and they only thing the prevents me from agreeing with you is that you are so totally wrong."

94 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:30:44pm

When Dawkins first mentioned DNA, her voice quavered in reply. If this had been Star Wars, I'd say the Admiral's Star Cruiser took a direct hit.
/The Stupid is strong in her

95 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:31:11pm

re: #86 OldLineTexan

There's no fuel like an old fuel.

96 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:31:16pm

are these people fiscal conservatives?...if they are then how does the GOP denounce their agenda?

97 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:31:43pm

re: #79 FrogMarch

My point was that it doesn't belong in the public school system. (where the controversy exists)
I'm glad she's getting science at a private religious school. do you know if it's evolutionary science?
& -- I never said they were not compatible.


Frog,
My daughter went to Catholic high school and got science and evolution. NO controversy, just science.

98 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:31:45pm

What a condscending twit she is.

"There are many Bishops who believe in evolution."
"What denomination?"
"Well, the ones I know are Anglican."
"Well, there you go."

3..2..1..SLAP!

99 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:31:57pm

She makes a very funny mistake at about 6:05. She claims that he's making "ad hominid" attacks against her.

100 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:32:03pm

re: #91 reine.de.tout

No you did not say they were not compatible, I did not intend to indicate you had implied that. My comment was poorly written, sorry.

Yes, she is getting evolutionary science, of course.

It was fine - you made a good point. I'm glad to hear it!

101 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:32:05pm

re: #94 NelsFree

Dawkins: I find you lack of clues disturbing.

102 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:32:09pm

re: #94 NelsFree

In part 3 she proposes that God intervenes at the point of each person's creation, and alters their DNA so they are a distinct individual.

103 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:32:15pm

re: #96 albusteve

are these people fiscal conservatives?...if they are then how does the GOP denounce their agenda?

Let's get Obama to lie to them like he lies to the progressives.

/don't shoot, I read it here!

/

104 itellu3times  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:32:42pm

(something wrong with the login code at the top of the front and thread pages - login button won't light up)

105 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:32:51pm

re: #88 albusteve

..I mean these people vote


Vote? Hell, they set the science and education standards for the GOP.

106 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:33:20pm

re: #92 CyanSnowHawk

Does he has some hidden away that she only shows to special friends?

//

that's really pretty cool...I have not seen such a thing in his collection...the Maids of Mer will rock you

107 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:33:22pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

She makes a very funny mistake at about 6:05. She claims that he's making "ad hominid" attacks against her.

Before the interview, Dawkins dropped by her dressing room without knocking and she called him a Peking Man.

/

108 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:33:38pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

He must be a Neanderthal then.

(Actually Neanderthal man is more recent than "hominid".)

109 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:33:40pm
110 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:34:07pm

re: #97 VioletTiger

Frog,
My daughter went to Catholic high school and got science and evolution. NO controversy, just science.

Interesting.

111 brookly red  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:34:28pm

I always thought that evolution kinda means that things that are smarter & hence better able to survive & reproduce, would eventually outnumber the less intelligent things. We must be doing something that interferes with the process.

112 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:34:34pm

re: #83 Ojoe

I'm not sure about more, but CO2 is part of the carbon cycle & all life depends on it. Chlorophyl has lots of carbon molecules for instance, and plants pull carbon right out of the air.

So CO2 is really wonderful.

What's not so wonderful is having creationists argue that position. It's like having a troofer argue that the birther position is nonsense.

113 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:34:37pm

re: #18 Right Brain

he is I am a boring ROMRight-brain, incapable of serious dialog.


FTFY

114 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:34:45pm

re: #110 FrogMarch

Check out post 55

115 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:35:29pm

re: #105 Killgore Trout

Vote? Hell, they set the science and education standards for the GOP.

yes...consider the options here...politics is fast becoming cartoon like

116 Erik The Red  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:35:43pm

re: #97 VioletTiger

Frog,
My daughter went to Catholic high school and got science and evolution. NO controversy, just science.

Isn't funny how the most structured and pedantic religion is happy to teach and believe that evolution is no thread to man kind. Yet others are...???.

117 tradewind  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:35:59pm

How old is this stuff (meaning crazy creationism? ) I grew up in the church, still go there, and have never heard a sermon or sentiment that tries to refute evolution. I guess I just don't see a problem with God as the ultimate scientist.

118 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:36:25pm

I finally pinned her down! She sounds like a ditzier version of Georgia Purdom! Pudom was the 'scientist' interviewed at the 'Creation Science Museum."

Video: Skeptic vs. Creationist
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

119 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:36:28pm

OT: Fox news to become a pay site.
/Lol

120 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:36:28pm

re: #65 Charles

Someone, please tell me I didn't see an article by creationist Frank J. Tipler at Pajamas Media today, claiming that CO2 is wonderful and we need more of it?

Ugh. Glad I'm not still there to be aggravated about that.

How does he reconcile his work in theoretical physics and cosmology with cartoonish fairy tales?

121 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:37:09pm

In Part 4, she argues for teaching children 'evidence' so that they can decide for themselves what is truth.

122 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:37:09pm

re: #116 Erik The Red

Isn't funny how the most structured and pedantic religion is happy to teach and believe that evolution is no thread to man kind. Yet others are...???.


Evolution is part of the tapestry. Heh.
/Wait, did I just start a tapestry pun thread?

123 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:37:33pm

re: #117 tradewind

How old is this stuff (meaning crazy creationism? ) I grew up in the church, still go there, and have never heard a sermon or sentiment that tries to refute evolution. I guess I just don't see a problem with God as the ultimate scientist.

creationism is 6000 years old...no more, no less...take it or leave it, but remember this is the face of the GOP

124 SixDegrees  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:37:49pm

re: #96 albusteve

are these people fiscal conservatives?...if they are then how does the GOP denounce their agenda?

By pointing out that imposing one's religious fews on others through the power of the state is fundamentally about as anti-Conservative as it is possible to get, and noting that while Conservatism strives to allow the individual as much freedom as possible to pursue their own goals - including living their lives according to their own religious precepts - it will never support the state forcing any religion on anyone. Thanks for your votes, we're happy that we were able to create an environment where you're free to practice your religion, but if you want to establish a theocracy, bugger off.

It's really just that simple. There may be intersecting areas, like fiscal responsibility, but that doesn't mean that a political movement is forced to accept all the non-overlapping areas along with.

125 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:37:59pm

I hypothesis that the human brain can fossilize before death. I posit this with my evidence being this video. It is curious to note that along with the brain in this instance the face has likewise fossilized in a peculiar but sardonic pose.

126 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:38:00pm

re: #122 NelsFree

Evolution is part of the tapestry. Heh.
/Wait, did I just start a tapestry pun thread?

Yes, and all Bayeaux self, too.

127 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:38:22pm

re: #123 albusteve

creationism is 6000 years old...no more, no less...take it or leave it, but remember this is the face of the GOP

oh for pete's sake

128 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:38:44pm

re: #114 Ojoe

Check out post 55

Beautifully put, Pope.

129 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:38:47pm

re: #111 brookly red

I always thought that evolution kinda means that things that are smarter & hence better able to survive & reproduce, would eventually outnumber the less intelligent things. We must be doing something that interferes with the process.

Abortion.

130 tradewind  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:38:49pm

re: #123 albusteve

Not the Republicans I know.
Just seem to be the ones the media is most happy to follow now.

131 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:39:22pm

Any time one of these creationist trots out the line "careful study of the Bible shows...", they're done. They have nothing to further to add to the conversation because they're leaving scientific theory (however shaky or tenuous that theory might have been) behind and now expounding on theological interpretation.

Put a fork in her, she's done.

132 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:39:33pm

CO2 is also pretty cool in that carbon, at 2.26 grams per cc, gets hitched to to Oxygen molecules, and it just floats away in the air with them.

Wow.

133 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:39:48pm

re: #123 albusteve

creationism is 6000 years old...no more, no less...take it or leave it, but remember this is the face of the GOP

4004 B.C. opps B.C.E. 6013 years. Give or take a couple years for calender errors during the switches between calenders.

134 jorline  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:40:03pm

I would rather listen to the Gaza Rooster!

135 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:40:35pm

re: #134 jorline

I would rather listen to the Gaza Rooster!

He was delicious.

136 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:40:36pm

re: #134 jorline

I would rather listen to the Gaza Rooster!

Sorry, but they came to snuff the rooster.

137 itellu3times  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:40:44pm

Concerned Women 4 America?

I'm concerned that every lazy, ignorant, and stupid person in America seems so proud of their laziness, ignorance, and stupidity, that they feel compelled to try to convert the rest of the country to share their characteristics.

OK, that can't be right. I blame it on the (lack of) intellectual, or even moral, leadership in our modern society. The institutions are broken, individuals cannot stand out except by hokum and noise, not the properties that one should choose leaders by.

But there is something really widespread about ignorance today being proud of itself, troofers, nirthers, creationists, and fans of Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader.

138 tradewind  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:40:53pm

re: #134 jorline

.. than this cocka doo(dle doo. )

139 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:41:11pm

re: #133 jcm

4004 B.C. opps B.C.E. 6013 years. Give or take a couple years for calender errors during the switches between calenders.

6012, there was no year 0.

140 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:41:20pm

re: #132 Ojoe

"two" PIMF

I am typing "to" fast LOL.

141 jjmckay1216  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:41:33pm

OMG! I think I have a voice job for a new animated film working with John Cusak & Rob Morrow

142 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:41:40pm

Why is Apple's software download feature so slow these days? They need to buy more bandwidth.

There's a new Mac OS update out tonight, with an update to Safari...

143 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:41:48pm
144 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:41:49pm

Evening group. Need to watch the videos, but am a bit worried about the smiley face in the frozen shot and what Charles is referring too as "stepford wife cheeriness" I don't think I can take it.

145 itellu3times  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:41:50pm

re: #119 Killgore Trout

OT: Fox news to become a pay site.
/Lol

By odd coincidence, News Corp becomes a non-profit corporation.
/

146 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:41:54pm

re: #121 jaunte

In Part 4, she argues for teaching children 'evidence' so that they can decide for themselves what is truth.

oh, ugh!
What "evidence"?
Do you suppose she even knows what "evidence" means?

147 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:41:55pm

re: #124 SixDegrees

By pointing out that imposing one's religious fews on others through the power of the state is fundamentally about as anti-Conservative as it is possible to get, and noting that while Conservatism strives to allow the individual as much freedom as possible to pursue their own goals - including living their lives according to their own religious precepts - it will never support the state forcing any religion on anyone. Thanks for your votes, we're happy that we were able to create an environment where you're free to practice your religion, but if you want to establish a theocracy, bugger off.

It's really just that simple. There may be intersecting areas, like fiscal responsibility, but that doesn't mean that a political movement is forced to accept all the non-overlapping areas along with.

you will be in a pup tent over there someplace...where are the Goldwater conservatives?...standing on my priniciples that is, leaves me few allies in the GOP it seems...do you know how big this thing is?...added to the Paulians and nirthers?...that's my question

148 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:42:06pm

re: #139 ArchangelMichael

6012, there was no year 0.

No, just the Year of the Zero so far ...

149 jorline  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:42:22pm

re: #135 OldLineTexan

He was delicious.

OLT, I know times are tough, but the Rooster?

Fried, grilled or baked?

150 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:42:40pm

re: #144 ArmyWife

Evening group. Need to watch the videos, but am a bit worried about the smiley face in the frozen shot and what Charles is referring too as "stepford wife cheeriness" I don't think I can take it.

Don't try it. Most couldn't get past the first few minutes.
She really does seem sort of programmed.

151 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:42:49pm

re: #127 OldLineTexan

oh for pete's sake

whoever controls the media controls the party

152 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:42:59pm

re: #116 Erik The Red

Isn't funny how the most structured and pedantic religion is happy to teach and believe that evolution is no thread to man kind. Yet others are...???.


I really don't know makes the difference. I've been surprised that there are so many who still refuse to accept science.

153 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:43:03pm

re: #146 reine.de.tout

oh, ugh!
What "evidence"?
Do you suppose she even knows what "evidence" means?

That was her response to Dawkins asking her if she thought children should be taught critical thinking. Sort of a variation on 'teach the controversy.'

154 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:43:08pm
155 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:43:21pm

re: #149 jorline

OLT, I know times are tough, but the Rooster?

Fried, grilled or baked?

Actually, he got a new gig as a corporate mascot

Youtube Video
156 itellu3times  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:43:22pm

re: #151 albusteve

whoever controls the media controls the party

whoever controls the beer controls the media.

157 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:43:37pm

re: #149 jorline

OLT, I know times are tough, but the Rooster?

Fried, grilled or baked?

Stewed; there are a lot of hungry Zionists in Gaza (at times).

/

158 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:43:48pm

re: #141 jjmckay1216

OMG! I think I have a voice job for a new animated film working with John Cusak & Rob Morrow


What will you look like?

159 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:44:33pm

re: #132 Ojoe

Plus, the carbon floats away in the air and it's transparent.

Wow!

160 tradewind  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:45:10pm
re: #137 itellu3times

and fans of Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader.


Oh, I feel for them... they're just hoping against hope for a positive answer.

161 jorline  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:45:23pm

re: #155 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Actually, he got a new gig as a corporate mascot


lmao...stained glass?

162 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:45:34pm

Totally apart from evolution/creationism, I would NOT want to be married to Wendy Wright. I get a sneaking suspicion that she (as a person) is not to be trusted. That sweet demeanor was being deliberately used to play to her assets. Self-righteous, patronizing, manipulative, et cetera.

/The Manipulated Man, Esther Vilar (English edition, Farrar, Straus and Giroux, NYC, 1972)

163 jorline  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:46:13pm

re: #157 OldLineTexan

Stewed; there are a lot of hungry Zionists in Gaza (at times).

/

Send that recipe onto Reine for Vol. II

164 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:46:17pm

re: #156 itellu3times

whoever controls the beer controls the media.

nobody seems to want to admit these people are a problem with the GOP, or at least discuss the magnitude...personally I think it's probably three times as bad as the MSM portrays it

165 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:46:19pm

re: #161 jorline

lmao...stained glass?

I only get the finest mahogany

166 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:46:34pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

She makes a very funny mistake at about 6:05. She claims that he's making "ad hominid" attacks against her.

Which one would she like to see attacked?

167 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:46:39pm

re: #151 albusteve

whoever controls the media controls the party

the Dems? /jk

c'mon.

the media picks some of these people on purpose

the rest of them are self-promoting and actually have followers

are Jesse and Al "the face of Black America"? i think not; it's the damned cable news networks that sell that

so why should i buy that this woman (who, btw, i have never heard of until today, mark me down as ignorant) is "the face of the GOP"?

pure chicken little bullshit

168 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:46:43pm

re: #154 buzzsawmonkey

She did take awfully long to bake it.

I never want that recipe again.

Oh, no.

169 Mithrax  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:46:46pm

re: #165 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I only get the finest mahogany

Splinters dude, splinters.

170 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:47:08pm

re: #144 ArmyWife

Evening group. Need to watch the videos, but am a bit worried about the smiley face in the frozen shot and what Charles is referring too as "stepford wife cheeriness" I don't think I can take it.

Stepford wife. That sums it up.

171 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:47:29pm

re: #102 jaunte

In part 3 she proposes that God intervenes at the point of each person's creation, and alters their DNA so they are a distinct individual.

OMG! I sure as hell ain't gonna watch the others now.

172 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:47:30pm

re: #154 buzzsawmonkey

She did take awfully long to bake it.

And she still sounds half baked!

173 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:47:37pm

She is constantly saying "Show me the material evidence for evolution."

I wonder what her reaction would be if he said "Show me the material evidence for God."

174 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:47:46pm

re: #163 jorline

Send that recipe onto Reine for Vol. II

I did; Quick Zionist Gazan Honco Rooster with Dumplings!

/or something like that

175 freetoken  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:47:48pm

I made it to 1:16 in the first video... but, I just don't have enough B&J Chocolate Fudge Brownie ice cream left to make it any farther... will need to do a run to the market if I am to continue...

176 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:47:55pm

re: #169 Mithrax

Splinters dude, splinters.

Compressed wood, finely sand and laquered, its breath-taking

177 jorline  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:48:02pm

re: #165 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I only get the finest mahogany

I'll take the sandalwood.

178 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:48:38pm

re: #177 jorline

I'll take the sandalwood.

Good call

179 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:48:39pm

OT: Happy 20,000 to me.

I should be proud or ashamed!

Or both!

180 brookly red  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:48:41pm

re: #164 albusteve

nobody seems to want to admit these people are a problem with the GOP, or at least discuss the magnitude...personally I think it's probably three times as bad as the MSM portrays it

the other side has their baggage too...

181 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:48:46pm

re: #139 ArchangelMichael

6012, there was no year 0.

There is no 0! Wow! who's that in the White House then?

182 jorline  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:48:51pm

re: #174 OldLineTexan

I did; Quick Zionist Gazan Honco Rooster with Dumplings!

/or something like that

tee hee

183 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:48:56pm

re: #50 Charles

She actually said, "Where are the carcasses?"

Even with the fossil record, they think everything that dies, was fossilized and you just need to look down to find one in perfect shape. Sure, there are gaps in the fossil record, but they are not exactly common as sea shells.

184 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:48:59pm

re: #102 jaunte

In part 3 she proposes that God intervenes at the point of each person's creation, and alters their DNA so they are a distinct individual.

No wonder so many religions don't like it when you spill your seed. They must imagine god having to check every time.
"Me-dammit, another false alarm!"
/

185 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:49:40pm

re: #167 OldLineTexan

the Dems? /jk

c'mon.

the media picks some of these people on purpose

the rest of them are self-promoting and actually have followers

are Jesse and Al "the face of Black America"? i think not; it's the damned cable news networks that sell that

so why should i buy that this woman (who, btw, i have never heard of until today, mark me down as ignorant) is "the face of the GOP"?

pure chicken little bullshit

we'll see won't we?...I do not discount any possibility...you show me the vast mainstream conservative voters who are at this minute drooling and stewing over Paula Abdule's AmIdol departure and I will concede...show me the beef amigo

186 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:49:46pm

re: #166 CyanSnowHawk

Which one would she like to see attacked?

Probably homo erectus, the nasty little perv ...

/Emily Litella

187 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:50:28pm

re: #126 OldLineTexan

Yes, and all Bayeaux self, too.

I'm afraid you were being a bit Hastings in your comment. It was actually embroidery. I never embroider my comments, especially the ones about my private army...
/h

188 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:50:32pm

re: #159 Ojoe

Plus, the carbon floats away in the air and it's transparent.

Wow!

I'm about to start this book by called: "Heaven and Earth: Global Warming, the Missing Science" - by Ian Plimer
He's Professor of Geology. Should be interesting.

189 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:50:34pm

re: #119 Killgore Trout

OT: Fox news to become a pay site.
/Lol

Let me know how that works for ya' Rupert.

190 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:51:02pm

I have no use for extremists of any stripe. But here's a message for the likes of randall terry from a conservative Independent.

you little piece of shit. how dare you threaten violence against medical facilities and personnel. there are a lot of us who are not insane as you are. and we oppose Obama's socialized medicine as you do. but every time you open that foul pie hole of yours, you are fucking things up for those of us who want to save this country from the extreme left. and morons like you will hand the leftists the victory they can't earn in the arena of ideas. and by the way, we have no use for your brand of extremism either. so shut the fuck up.

191 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:51:09pm

re: #185 albusteve

we'll see won't we?...I do not discount any possibility...you show me the vast mainstream conservative voters who are at this minute drooling and stewing over Paula Abdule's AmIdol departure and I will concede...show me the beef amigo

pass the peyote and 'splain to me what the f&ck that means, compadre

/

192 SixDegrees  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:51:40pm

re: #117 tradewind

How old is this stuff (meaning crazy creationism? ) I grew up in the church, still go there, and have never heard a sermon or sentiment that tries to refute evolution. I guess I just don't see a problem with God as the ultimate scientist.

It's pretty recent; my guess - and it's really just a guess - is that it's maybe a century old. The Origin of Species was published in 1859, and was a huge best seller; the intellectual world had noted for centuries that nature's complexity needed some mechanism to explain it, and natural selection provided just that. It was accepted almost instantly. There were rumblings from the Protestant church at the time, notably from Sam Wilberforce, but these were settled in a series of devastating public debates between Wilberforce and Thomas Huxley. But the argument then was man's descent from apes - postulated in Darwin's later work, The Descent of Man - there was no reference to Biblical literalism, a 6000 year old earth or any of the other nonsense peddled by creationists today.

The modern version seems to have arisen from southern Baptist fundamentalist churches in the United States, although it has spread from there to many other countries. It seems that the extreme form of literalism it is infested with is a fairly recent development; even at the Scopes trial (1926), the argument against evolution still centered on the moral problems raised by man's postulated descent from apes, and not from any Biblical disputes.

Someone really ought to write a book on this topic and flesh out the movement's history. My own feeling is that the phosphorescent stupidity that emanates from creationism today is a relatively recent development, although it may have roots that extend back fairly far.

193 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:51:43pm

Part 5, Dawkins asks if she's willing to teach the controversy around various creation myths. Nope.
Then she begins whining about evolutionists being demeaning and degrading to the people who aren't convinced by their evidence.

194 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:52:12pm

re: #187 NelsFree

I'm afraid you were being a bit Hastings in your comment. It was actually embroidery. I never embroider my comments, especially the ones about my private army...
/h

You know what else? I misspelled "Bayeux"!

195 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:53:07pm

where are all the potential voters in this country?...poll after poll shows they are conservative in ideology...where are they and why do they hide?...in the meantime the fringe will overtake the mainstream...BO got elected didn't he?...the MSM did it for him...if the situation can be reversed the GOP neesds their silent majority...where are they?

196 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:53:19pm

re: #188 FrogMarch

I would like to know if he thinks we are temporarily staving off the next ice age with our fossil fuel burning.

I have not heard of any study that says Earth had left behind its recent glacial - interglacial cycling.

Oh well BBL

197 freetoken  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:54:38pm

re: #65 Charles

Tipler is a sad case... of a sharp mind that has been led more by the all too human desire to make sense of one's impending existential crisis (death), rather than being led by training and discipline.

Associating himself with Wheeler was a path to some notoriety. (Wheeler was a well known physicist.) When I was considering going to graduate school in physics, Maryland was on my short list (it was a leading school in the field)... I wonder if I had done so if I would have crossed paths with Tipler.

198 calcajun  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:55:09pm

re: #187 NelsFree

What would Karl Wove say?

199 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:55:41pm

re: #191 OldLineTexan

pass the peyote and 'splain to me what the f&ck that means, compadre

/

then conversley you explain how BO got elected...if conservatives don't vote then the GOP is wide open for troofers and nirthers and Paulians...they are on the march

200 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:55:51pm

Exhausting.

201 freetoken  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:56:05pm

re: #188 FrogMarch

I'm about to start this book by called: "Heaven and Earth: Global Warming, the Missing Science" - by Ian Plimer
He's Professor of Geology. Should be interesting.

The review of Plimer's work by scientists (who are not associated with Plimer's ideological pursuit) if rather negative.

202 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:56:17pm

re: #94 NelsFree

When Dawkins first mentioned DNA, her voice quavered in reply. If this had been Star Wars, I'd say the Admiral's Star Cruiser took a direct hit.
/The Stupid is strong in her

"Stay on Target!"

203 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:56:21pm

re: #193 jaunte

Part 5, Dawkins asks if she's willing to teach the controversy around various creation myths. Nope.
Then she begins whining about evolutionists being demeaning and degrading to the people who aren't convinced by their evidence.

I'm beginning to doubt the evidence of intelligent life on earth.

204 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:56:25pm

She's also wrong about communism being Darwinian; it was based upon Karl Marx's 'intelligent' design.

205 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:56:37pm

re: #166 CyanSnowHawk

Which one would she like to see attacked?


I bet she'd vote for number four; that blue light is obviously a sign of Satan!

206 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:56:47pm

re: #197 freetoken

Tipler is a sad case... of a sharp mind that has been led more by the all too human desire to make sense of one's impending existential crisis (death), rather than being led by training and discipline.

Associating himself with Wheeler was a path to some notoriety. (Wheeler was a well known physicist.) When I was considering going to graduate school in physics, Maryland was on my short list (it was a leading school in the field)... I wonder if I had done so if I would have crossed paths with Tipler.

Thanks to that bastard Heisenberg, we can never be certain.

/

207 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:57:26pm

re: #204 Salamantis

She's also wrong about communism being Darwinian; it was based upon Karl Marx's 'UNintelligent' design.

ftfy

208 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:57:35pm

re: #203 jcm

I'm beginning to doubt the evidence of intelligent life on earth.

quit staring at me

209 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:57:59pm

re: #193 jaunte

... she begins whining about evolutionists being demeaning and degrading to the people who aren't convinced by their evidence.

In my not-so-humble-opinion, that's in character.
See the citation from mine above, copied below.

re: #162 pre-Boomer Marine brat
/The Manipulated Man, Esther Vilar (English edition, Farrar, Straus and Giroux, NYC, 1972)

210 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:58:01pm

re: #195 albusteve

where are all the potential voters in this country?...poll after poll shows they are conservative in ideology...where are they and why do they hide?...in the meantime the fringe will overtake the mainstream...BO got elected didn't he?...the MSM did it for him...if the situation can be reversed the GOP neesds their silent majority...where are they?


I heard recently that far more people consider themselves Conservative than consider themselves republican.

so perhaps the republicans need to quit playing nice and big tent and pandering to the moderates and tap into the conservatives.

I would prefer they leave the social agenda at the door and really hammer home conservative fiscal policy. hammer the ACORN freaks. hammer the pork. hammer the psychopaths on the left and the RINO right spending us into the poor house

211 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:58:06pm

re: #183 avanti

avanti
I want to apologize for a comment I made to you yesterday. I have no right to single out your language for censure. Not sure why I did, except I was cranky. Sorry!

212 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:58:19pm

re: #208 albusteve

quit staring at me

present company excluded, no doubt

213 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:58:20pm
214 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:58:21pm

re: #199 albusteve

then conversley you explain how BO got elected...if conservatives don't vote then the GOP is wide open for troofers and nirthers and Paulians...they are on the march

Because John McCain ran such a brilliant, inspiring campaign?

I voted, my friend, and his defeat was not a landslide.

Sparkle, shine, and mind-numbing adoration beat old and cranky with no new ideas and a "conservative" rep for skewering his own side first.

215 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:58:32pm

re: #207 Desert Dog

ftfy

Why do you think I put 'intelligent' in quotes?

216 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:58:46pm

re: #193 jaunte

Hypocrisy, thy name is stepford wife.

217 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:58:50pm

re: #201 freetoken

what statement are you making with your avatar/screen name combo? I'm interested in the meaning of it.

218 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:59:30pm

re: #203 jcm

It's another one of those conversations where the scientist is talking about science, and the creationist is jumping ahead to the implications for society if people begin to behave in a way that the creationist speculates people will behave if they have only their humanity as a basis for morality.

219 freetoken  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:59:37pm

pimf if are

220 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:59:47pm

re: #198 calcajun

What would Karl Wove say?


Dick Morris would say,"Wove, you magnificent warp-ed S.O.B!"

221 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:59:50pm

re: #188 FrogMarch

I'm about to start this book by called: "Heaven and Earth: Global Warming, the Missing Science" - by Ian Plimer
He's Professor of Geology. Should be interesting.

Let us know what you think of it. I am looking to increase my reading on the subject.

222 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:59:55pm

re: #193 jaunte

Part 5, Dawkins asks if she's willing to teach the controversy around various creation myths. Nope.
Then she begins whining about evolutionists being demeaning and degrading to the people who aren't convinced by their evidence.

i insist she consider the turtlic evidence

223 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:01:20pm

re: #208 albusteve

quit staring at me

You're beer was empty

*pours a new mug*

;-)

224 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:01:21pm

re: #218 jaunte

It's another one of those conversations where the scientist is talking about science, and the creationist is jumping ahead to the implications for society if people begin to behave in a way that the creationist speculates people will behave if they have only their humanity as a basis for morality.

Her argument is succinctly encapsulated thusly:

"But I believe that society would be so much better off if it embraced my pet false fantasy as true!"

225 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:01:32pm

re: #210 Shug

As more socially conservative than many on this board, I could support this kind of candidate.

226 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:01:55pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

"Stay on Target!"

Quiet Chewie

227 freetoken  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:02:00pm

re: #217 _RememberTonyC

I'm interested in the meaning of it.

It has no meaning... it is a Rorschach test. What matters is what you see in it.

228 SixDegrees  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:02:25pm

re: #195 albusteve

where are all the potential voters in this country?...poll after poll shows they are conservative in ideology...where are they and why do they hide?...in the meantime the fringe will overtake the mainstream...BO got elected didn't he?...the MSM did it for him...if the situation can be reversed the GOP neesds their silent majority...where are they?

A lot of them are joining the Democrats to escape the Religious Right. The country as a whole has been drifting toward the right for several decades now, and the Democrats aren't stupid - they're courting disaffected Conservatives and co-opting several planks of the Conservative platform. The Dems themselves are having problems with this - the old school Liberal wing still holds senior positions in the party, but they're having difficulty controlling the newer members - the Blue Dogs - who are much more fiscally conservative.

If this continues, the Democrats will become the nation's Conservative party over the next decade or two, and the GOP will be marginalized as the party of kooks. I expect to see serious challenges to the Liberal Democratic leadership over the next few years - the recent tussle in Congress over Cap & Trade and health care is entirely a result of Democratic opposition based on fiscal conservatism, with the GOP playing no significant role in their unanimous minority position.

229 1SG(ret)  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:02:43pm

re: #195 albusteve
In church, it is Wed.

230 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:03:01pm

re: #210 Shug

I heard recently that far more people consider themselves Conservative than consider themselves republican.

so perhaps the republicans need to quit playing nice and big tent and pandering to the moderates and tap into the conservatives.

I would prefer they leave the social agenda at the door and really hammer home conservative fiscal policy. hammer the ACORN freaks. hammer the pork. hammer the psychopaths on the left and the RINO right spending us into the poor house

Yes.

231 mich-again  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:03:25pm

10 minutes of that was all I could take. Her talking points are the same old broken record.

232 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:03:36pm

re: #210 Shug

I heard recently that far more people consider themselves Conservative than consider themselves republican.

so perhaps the republicans need to quit playing nice and big tent and pandering to the moderates and tap into the conservatives.

I would prefer they leave the social agenda at the door and really hammer home conservative fiscal policy. hammer the ACORN freaks. hammer the pork. hammer the psychopaths on the left and the RINO right spending us into the poor house

I could not agree with you enough and I consider myself one of those people...but what we prefer is not happening...it all boils down to reform and leadership...these freaks are running wild, and even so how can the GOP discount their votes?...fiscal conservatism is turning into a political tactic rather that a tried and true ideology

233 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:03:40pm

re: #225 ArmyWife

As more socially conservative than many on this board, I could support this kind of candidate.

(up-dinged, and btw, I keep my mouth shut a lot in here.)

234 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:03:47pm

re: #227 freetoken

It has no meaning... it is a Rorschach test. What matters is what you see in it.


bullshit ...

235 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:03:48pm

re: #228 SixDegrees

And this is nothing new; as anyone can tell you, Texas was once a Democrat stronghold. The party drifted left and lost their majority.

236 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:04:20pm
237 freetoken  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:04:49pm

re: #234 _RememberTonyC

bullshit ...

Rorschach test...

238 SixDegrees  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:04:57pm

re: #210 Shug

I heard recently that far more people consider themselves Conservative than consider themselves republican.

so perhaps the republicans need to quit playing nice and big tent and pandering to the moderates and tap into the conservatives.

I would prefer they leave the social agenda at the door and really hammer home conservative fiscal policy. hammer the ACORN freaks. hammer the pork. hammer the psychopaths on the left and the RINO right spending us into the poor house

Amen. They would also gain enough support from the conservative faction of the Democratic party to actually be able to accomplish something, even with their current minority status.

239 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:05:05pm

re: #225 ArmyWife

As more socially conservative than many on this board, I could support this kind of candidate.

I could too, and I am also one of the more socially conservative folks here.

240 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:05:17pm

re: #231 mich-again

10 minutes of that was all I could take. Her talking points are the same old broken record.

her entire arguement is "LALALALALA I'm not listening LALALALALA!"

241 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:05:42pm

re: #237 freetoken

Rorschach test...


what do you see in it? you presented it to the public.

242 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:05:43pm

re: #223 jcm

You're beer was empty

*pours a new mug*

;-)

beer makes me smart...'bout choo?

243 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:05:49pm

re: #211 VioletTiger

avanti
I want to apologize for a comment I made to you yesterday. I have no right to single out your language for censure. Not sure why I did, except I was cranky. Sorry!

Nice of you to do that, but your point was well taken. Public profanity is not necessary to make a point and I'll try to do better.

244 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:05:57pm
245 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:06:08pm

re: #237 freetoken

Rorschach test...

Like we break every bone in someone's hand to see if they're lying? That kind of test?

246 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:06:11pm

re: #193 jaunte

Part 5, Dawkins asks if she's willing to teach the controversy around various creation myths. Nope.
Then she begins whining about evolutionists being demeaning and degrading to the people who aren't convinced by their evidence.

It's the same as Islam (though less violent):

Whatever you present as science is controversial, Our faith is always correct and may not be challenged.
247 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:06:18pm

re: #239 reine.de.tout

so. Where is this candidate? Let us go find him/her!

248 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:06:23pm

re: #218 jaunte

It's another one of those conversations where the scientist is talking about science, and the creationist is jumping ahead to the implications for society if people begin to behave in a way that the creationist speculates people will behave if they have only their humanity as a basis for morality.

They (the creationist) make fundamental error, one that is actually pointed out in the Bible. They see science and faith as mutually exclusive the. When they are parallel and coexisting.

249 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:06:46pm

re: #201 freetoken

The review of Plimer's work by scientists (who are not associated with Plimer's ideological pursuit) if rather negative.

Where?

250 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:06:46pm

re: #232 albusteve

I could not agree with you enough and I consider myself one of those people...but what we prefer is not happening...it all boils down to reform and leadership...these freaks are running wild, and even so how can the GOP discount their votes?...fiscal conservatism is turning into a political tactic rather that a tried and true ideology

Sadly true.

251 Tarkus289  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:07:17pm

re: #247 ArmyWife

Be patient, one will arise.

252 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:07:22pm

re: #248 jcm

They (the creationist) make fundamental error, one that is actually pointed out in the Bible. They see science and faith as mutually exclusive the. When they are parallel and coexisting.

Beware of the person of one book.
Saint Thomas Aquinas

253 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:08:07pm

re: #215 Salamantis

Why do you think I put 'intelligent' in quotes?

I got drunk on evening whilst out with chums when I was studying in London. I announced I wanted to go piss on Karl Marx' grave. So, we took the tube to Highgate. Found the cemetery...and, I did, in fact, piss on his grave.

254 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:08:13pm

re: #233 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I try. But I am rarely successful!

255 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:08:37pm

re: #228 SixDegrees

I expect to see serious challenges to the Liberal Democratic leadership over the next few years - the recent tussle in Congress over Cap & Trade and health care is entirely a result of Democratic opposition based on fiscal conservatism, with the GOP playing no significant role in their unanimous minority position.


The GOP is smart not to touch Cap'n Tax or ObamaCare; the People are getting up in arms against whoever tries to force those on us. It is my opinion that the pendulum will swing back to Conservatism. There may be rough times ahead, though.

256 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:08:41pm

re: #226 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Quiet Chewie

SMACK!

257 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:09:30pm

re: #228 SixDegrees

A lot of them are joining the Democrats to escape the Religious Right. The country as a whole has been drifting toward the right for several decades now, and the Democrats aren't stupid - they're courting disaffected Conservatives and co-opting several planks of the Conservative platform. The Dems themselves are having problems with this - the old school Liberal wing still holds senior positions in the party, but they're having difficulty controlling the newer members - the Blue Dogs - who are much more fiscally conservative.

If this continues, the Democrats will become the nation's Conservative party over the next decade or two, and the GOP will be marginalized as the party of kooks. I expect to see serious challenges to the Liberal Democratic leadership over the next few years - the recent tussle in Congress over Cap & Trade and health care is entirely a result of Democratic opposition based on fiscal conservatism, with the GOP playing no significant role in their unanimous minority position.

Can I get a Amen ? That was a brilliant post IMHO.

258 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:09:32pm

re: #221 VioletTiger

Let us know what you think of it. I am looking to increase my reading on the subject.

I will. I should probably balance it out with some pro-global warming work.
I'm so put-off by the gw alarmists - that I'm already pre-disposed to assume gw is mostly alarmist bunk.

259 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:10:24pm

re: #255 NelsFree

The GOP is smart not to touch Cap'n Tax or ObamaCare; the People are getting up in arms against whoever tries to force those on us. It is my opinion that the pendulum will swing back to Conservatism. There may be rough times ahead, though.

nancy pelosi is the most arrogant politician i think i have ever seen.

260 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:10:28pm

re: #201 freetoken

The review of Plimer's work by scientists (who are not associated with Plimer's ideological pursuit) if rather negative.

He has an ideological pursuit? that's what I'm trying to avoid.
If so, link please.

261 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:10:41pm

re: #228 SixDegrees

A lot of them are joining the Democrats to escape the Religious Right. The country as a whole has been drifting toward the right for several decades now, and the Democrats aren't stupid - they're courting disaffected Conservatives and co-opting several planks of the Conservative platform. The Dems themselves are having problems with this - the old school Liberal wing still holds senior positions in the party, but they're having difficulty controlling the newer members - the Blue Dogs - who are much more fiscally conservative.

If this continues, the Democrats will become the nation's Conservative party over the next decade or two, and the GOP will be marginalized as the party of kooks. I expect to see serious challenges to the Liberal Democratic leadership over the next few years - the recent tussle in Congress over Cap & Trade and health care is entirely a result of Democratic opposition based on fiscal conservatism, with the GOP playing no significant role in their unanimous minority position.

waiting for the other team to implode...and everyone knows they are handing the next election to us on a silver platter, while the GOP squabbles over dinosaurs...I'm just wondering if it comes to a GOP purge or a compromise of some sort...until the stealth voters get to the polls that is

262 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:10:45pm

re: #258 FrogMarch

I will. I should probably balance it out with some pro-global warming work.
I'm so put-off by the gw alarmists - that I'm already pre-disposed to assume gw is mostly alarmist bunk.

don't leave off the "a"!

263 TheMatrix31  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:11:03pm

Everyone talks about how the conservatives needs to move to the center. Why don't the super-liberals which seem to have started to control everything move to the center?

264 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:11:10pm

re: #259 _RememberTonyC

nancy pelosi is the most arrogant politician i think i have ever seen.

she has to compete with chuck the schmuck

265 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:11:25pm

re: #247 ArmyWife

so. Where is this candidate? Let us go find him/her!

AW - I wish I knew!
I really wish I knew.

266 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:11:41pm

re: #255 NelsFree

The GOP is smart not to touch Cap'n Tax or ObamaCare; the People are getting up in arms against whoever tries to force those on us. It is my opinion that the pendulum will swing back to Conservatism. There may be rough times ahead, though.

Now is the time to buy pitchfork and torch stock! Tar, feathers and "running rails" are also recommended.

267 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:11:49pm
268 Kragar  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:11:52pm

re: #256 Dark_Falcon

SMACK!

You keep that up and I'm gonna stick something up your thermal exhaust port

269 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:12:29pm

re: #254 ArmyWife

I try. But I am rarely successful!

I succeed only by having a software applet which proofreads each comment. If it finds "stuff" coming out, it detonates a claymore which is taped to the underside of the keyboard.

270 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:12:31pm

re: #266 Desert Dog

Now is the time to buy pitchfork and torch stock! Tar, feathers and "running rails" are also recommended.

times are tough we will have to make do with wedgies and wet willies

271 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:12:39pm

re: #257 avanti

Can I get a Amen ? That was a brilliant post IMHO.

Yes, too bad Obama is taking them so far to the left, they will not stay

272 Flyers1974  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:12:58pm

re: #147 albusteve

you will be in a pup tent over there someplace...where are the Goldwater conservatives?...standing on my priniciples that is, leaves me few allies in the GOP it seems...do you know how big this thing is?...added to the Paulians and nirthers?...that's my question

I think that creationists, nirthers and Paulians, added together (and of course acknowledging some degree of overlap) are a substantial minority of people who voted or will be voting GOP. I think they are a majority of those who are politically active, i.e., voting in GOP primaries, volunteering in campaigns, etc... . As far as Goldwater conservatives, either their numbers aren't as large as many think, or a decent number reluctently defected to the Democrats.

273 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:12:58pm

re: #264 OldLineTexan

she has to compete with chuck the schmuck

schumer is the most obnoxious, pelosi the most arrogant. harry reid is as bland as a mayonaise sandwich on white bread with no crust.

274 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:13:30pm

re: #266 Desert Dog

Now is the time to buy pitchfork and torch stock! Tar, feathers and "running rails" are also recommended.

charcoal...stock up

275 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:13:38pm

I can't remember when it happened that Republicans turned into democrats with less interesting footwear, but sometime after Newt split the scene.

we had crooks like DeLay. Freaks like Larry Craig and Foley. Big spenders bringing home the billions in pork and preaching "smaller government"
Phoney tax cuts that only shifted most people into the AMT bracket, with no tax cut at all.
Phoney conservative rhetoric.

and I feel pretty pissed off at being taken for granted.
the GOP has treated hard working honest fiscal conservatives like the Democrats treat African-Americans. Lip service

Alternative?? Third party. Bullshit. Third party = Democrats in control for 40 years.

Leadership and somebody in the GOP not afraid to lose, in order to win. that's what we need. Somebody who leaves the social agenda where it belongs : in the home of each individual, not in the party platform
Don't know if we'll get it.

hope so

276 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:13:44pm

re: #273 _RememberTonyC

schumer is the most obnoxious, pelosi the most arrogant. harry reid is as bland as a mayonaise sandwich on white bread with no crust.

reid is as crooked as a dog's hind leg

277 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:13:56pm

re: #263 TheMatrix31

Everyone talks about how the conservatives needs to move to the center. Why don't the super-liberals which seem to have started to control everything move to the center?

Trust me, the far left thinks Obama betrayed them on Afghanistan, Iraq and going after Bush on torture and wire taps, they are not delighted.

278 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:14:40pm

re: #268 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You keep that up and I'm gonna stick something up your thermal exhaust port

Stick this:

POW! [crunch]

BBL

279 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:14:42pm
280 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:15:21pm

re: #276 OldLineTexan

reid is as crooked as a dog's hind leg

i think you should apologize to dogs for comparing that little worm reid to one of their limbs. dogs deserve better.

281 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:15:28pm

re: #228 SixDegrees

"A lot of them are joining the Democrats to escape the Religious Right."


Smacks of truth.

"If this continues, the Democrats will become the nation's Conservative party over the next decade or two..."


*guffaw*

282 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:15:36pm

re: #279 buzzsawmonkey

May their organic yoghurt turn to leather in their stomachs.

even now, they are unveiling their breasts of self-righteousness to blind the unfaithful infidel

283 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:16:05pm

re: #272 Flyers1974

I think that creationists, nirthers and Paulians, added together (and of course acknowledging some degree of overlap) are a substantial minority of people who voted or will be voting GOP. I think they are a majority of those who are politically active, i.e., voting in GOP primaries, volunteering in campaigns, etc... . As far as Goldwater conservatives, either their numbers aren't as large as many think, or a decent number reluctently defected to the Democrats.

well that's not exactly good news...DKos is a minority, DU is a minority...the question I ask is this...can the GOP win elections without the fringe?

284 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:16:33pm

re: #281 The Shadow Do

*guffaw*

Yes, out of fear of the Religious Right, I am sending my firearms in to Chuck and Dianne.

/not bloody likely

285 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:16:36pm

re: #267 buzzsawmonkey

They haven't been able to earmark public funds to hire the moving vans.

Their leaders will just take their private jets.
House Orders Up Three Elite Jets

286 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:16:53pm
287 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:17:13pm

I think that viewer count tells the tale:

Part 1: 3872 views

Part 2: 1558 views

Part 3: 1068 views

Part 4: 787 views

Part 5: 811 views

Part 6: 590 views

Part 7: 815 views (because some folks probably skipped to the end).

Part of her purpose seems to be to so deeply induce slumber with her bland expressionless Botoxish visage, complete with her freeze-dried smile and her featureless droning monotone, that people fall asleep before they are able to hear all of Dawkins' points.

288 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:17:19pm

re: #277 avanti

Trust me, the far left thinks Obama betrayed them on Afghanistan, Iraq and going after Bush on torture and wire taps, they are not delighted.


bullshit they're "not happy" with Obama. you are not talking to fools here. just who would the "far left" vote for in 2012, Obama or ANY Republican?

289 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:17:34pm

re: #280 _RememberTonyC

i think you should apologize to dogs for comparing that little worm reid to one of their limbs. dogs deserve better.

have buzz tell you what the Bible says about dogs ... i should not be first on their hit list

290 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:18:02pm

re: #275 Shug

well said...BDS helped marginalize conservatives, as did Bush himself

291 Dustoff-507  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:18:14pm

So on to other things that really matter.
Have you seen this from the news. The speaker is losing it.
***
Nancy Pelosi claims protesters are "carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on healthcare."

292 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:18:19pm

re: #285 Desert Dog

Their leaders will just take their private jets.
House Orders Up Three Elite Jets

somebody needs to do a fucking perp walk for stealing tax dollars.

fly Commercial !

293 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:18:23pm

re: #201 freetoken

Here's one of the "good" reviews off Amazon:

Ian Plimer is perhaps best known as the geologist who debunked creationism in "Telling Lies for God". Here he turns his attention to the global warming beliefs that are now resulting in huge (possibly disastrous) policy changes by governments in the hope of avoiding "climate change". In "Heaven and Earth", I think Plimer does pretty well.

First off though, if you are expecting a simple read, this book is perhaps not it. Not that it is difficult to read, but it is technically dense, the average page having maybe ten references to academic papers to support its claims. And it has its mistakes. There is a diagram on temperature forecasts which is not properly explained, another one which, so it is claimed on the web, has been withdrawn by its author for errors. Also the author has a recurring habit of writing the opposite of what he means; it usually happens on unimportant points, but it distracts from following the argument. For example, he writes that the early half of the little ice age was more variable than the latter half (p 75), then a little later says the opposite (p 79). I noticed maybe ten such examples on my way through. They are not by any means fatal to his argument, but I am sure his opponents would dig them out and present them as if they were. But in a 500 page book, absolute correctness from cover to cover is, I think, far too high an expectation. The real question is: does he carry his main arguments?

I believe that he does. He shows, for instance, that CO2 in geological history has been up to 25 times higher than it now is, and that in this era it is at its lowest in the entire history of life on Earth. He shows how malaria is a disease of poverty, not of temperature, and has existed in England in the coldest of times. He discusses the major 'snowball earth' glaciations that most likely took ice all the way to the equator, but which, luckily, preceded the appearance of multicellular life. (If such an ice age happened now, it is hard to see how any multicelled life, let alone human life, could survive.) The main impression the book left me with was 'being given the complete picture'.

The main question I was asking myself when I first started investigating global warming in depth was which side is right? I came to the conclusion that the realists are (climate has always changed, and current temperatures and temperature changes are within historical limits). So this book was not the factor that convinced me. The single fact that did so, however, is included here. Pages 371 onwards discuss the IPCC's climate models, which predict an increasingly warm tropospheric 'hot spot' in the atmosphere, providing a 'warm blanket' that is heating up the planet. This 'warm blanket' simply isn't there, as Plimer explains. It boils down to this very simple fact: on a cold night, if you want to get warm, you must have warm air around you somehow - turn on a heater, put on a blanket, whatever, but unless warm air surrounds you, you won't get warm. The planet does not have any warmer air around it than it ever had, so it simply cannot be heating up due to insulation. Since that is the central claim of global warmism, the theory must be wrong. All the rest is 'sound and fury, signifying nothing'. But Plimer takes on that sound and fury, and shows it for the flim flam it really is.


...

294 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:18:37pm

re: #286 buzzsawmonkey

I'm not quite sure of the meaning/context/reference, but I absolutely love the resounding rhythm.

i also envision boobs not bombs and code pinkers when i think of the enraged ultra-left slavering for obama's head on salome's platter

295 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:18:53pm

re: #287 Salamantis

I think that viewer count tells the tale:

Part 1: 3872 views

Part 2: 1558 views

Part 3: 1068 views

Part 4: 787 views

Part 5: 811 views

Part 6: 590 views

Part 7: 815 views (because some folks probably skipped to the end).

Part of her purpose seems to be to so deeply induce slumber with her bland expressionless Botoxish visage, complete with her freeze-dried smile and her featureless droning monotone, that people fall asleep before they are able to hear all of Dawkins' points.

Rope a dope

296 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:19:46pm

It is my opinion that we should all go visit our Congressperson during the August recess. That's why they take the time off, right? Now, my critter is David Price, (D-NC). Well then, let's check his schedule...

[Link: www.wral.com...]

H'm. Maybe not.
/coward

297 mich-again  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:19:46pm

re: #294 OldLineTexan

i also envision boobs not bombs and code pinkers when i think of the enraged ultra-left slavering for obama's head on salome's platter

Like her.

298 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:19:47pm

re: #290 albusteve

well said...BDS helped marginalize conservatives, as did Bush himself

spending like a drunken sailor

299 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:19:48pm

re: #277 avanti

Trust me, the far left thinks Obama betrayed them on Afghanistan, Iraq and going after Bush on torture and wire taps, they are not delighted.

I guess Bush was right on all that after all? Obama has basically kept the same strategy in place.

300 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:19:54pm

re: #284 OldLineTexan

Yes, out of fear of the Religious Right, I am sending my firearms in to Chuck and Dianne.

/not bloody likely

Me too, bullets first...

301 TheMatrix31  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:19:57pm

Then maybe the "far left" needs to move to the center too.

I'm sick of only hearing about how conservatives have to move to the center, whether that statement is true or not.

302 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:20:00pm
303 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:20:27pm

re: #263 TheMatrix31

Moving to the center hasn't worked. Sadly. the kook faction gets a lot of air play right now for a deliberate reason - "look! All republicans are as freaky as this! Runaway, I tells you!" But we know we aren't, in fact I'd suggest the majority aren't. The problem is, the Republican party is so concerned with being labeled exclusionary they are embracing every freak faction that will call themselves on the "right". Instead of proving we really are not the party of racists, we are playing right into this false stereotype.

It isn't rocket science, really. We embrace freedom of thought and religion, but never to the determent of OTHER people's freedoms. I hate to sound like a scratched cd, but Ronald Reagan wrote the play book on this one. Agree to disagree and WALK THE F AWAY. Deal with more pressing issues, such as fiscal problems and preserving the Constitution.

304 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:20:43pm

re: #290 albusteve

well said...BDS helped marginalize conservatives, as did Bush himself

Eight years of Republican mismanagement left everyone weary. Too bad the replacements are even worse, eh?

305 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:21:01pm

re: #289 OldLineTexan

have buzz tell you what the Bible says about dogs ... i should not be first on their hit list

old testament or new testament?

306 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:21:14pm

re: #285 Desert Dog

Their leaders will just take their private jets.
House Orders Up Three Elite Jets

Change you can believe in...

307 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:21:20pm

re: #288 _RememberTonyC

bullshit they're "not happy" with Obama. you are not talking to fools here. just who would the "far left" vote for in 2012, Obama or ANY Republican?

not a fair question, as you did not mention luap nor!

308 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:21:30pm

re: #297 mich-again

Like her.

I wish I was wearing that chic's goggles when I pulled up that pic

309 Dustoff-507  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:21:47pm

re: #292 Shug

NO your wrong. Nancy P doesn't like her OLD 757. She wants a new one.
God help us all. )-:

310 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:21:50pm

re: #305 _RememberTonyC

old testament or new testament?

both

311 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:21:51pm

re: #213 buzzsawmonkey

At the risk of interjecting a serious Biblical comment, I would like to point out that while "onanism" has long been used as a synonym for masturbation, what is objected to in the relevant passage is Onan's engaging in coitus interruptus, i.e., refusing to perform his duty according to the practice of levirate marriage of providing a proxy heir for his deceased brother. It was not an issue of engaging in self-pleasure, but rather a matter of dodging what was at the time considered a familial duty.

Well, we know that, now can someone explain it to the "You'll go blind/You'll get hairy palms crowd?"

312 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:22:17pm
313 TheMatrix31  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:22:53pm

re: #301 TheMatrix31

Then maybe the "far left" needs to move to the center too.

I'm sick of only hearing about how conservatives have to move to the center, whether that statement is true or not.

That comment wasn't a subtle or hidden dig at you, Charles.

314 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:22:55pm

re: #299 Desert Dog

I guess Bush was right on all that after all? Obama has basically kept the same strategy in place.

liberals don't count for anything except their obstructive capacity...they cannot be taken seriously in any discussion...I wish it were that easy

315 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:22:55pm

re: #307 OldLineTexan

not a fair question, as you did not mention luap nor!


luap is a freak, but i'm sure the far left would choose Obama over him :)

316 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:23:10pm

re: #292 Shug

somebody needs to do a fucking perp walk for stealing tax dollars.

fly Commercial !

They could at least get rid of the fair maidens that throw rose pedals before them as they walk. That would save some money.

/

317 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:23:38pm

re: #310 OldLineTexan

both


I better hit "The Book."

318 TheMatrix31  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:23:44pm

re: #303 ArmyWife

Moving to the center hasn't worked. Sadly. the kook faction gets a lot of air play right now for a deliberate reason - "look! All republicans are as freaky as this! Runaway, I tells you!" But we know we aren't, in fact I'd suggest the majority aren't. The problem is, the Republican party is so concerned with being labeled exclusionary they are embracing every freak faction that will call themselves on the "right". Instead of proving we really are not the party of racists, we are playing right into this false stereotype.

It isn't rocket science, really. We embrace freedom of thought and religion, but never to the determent of OTHER people's freedoms. I hate to sound like a scratched cd, but Ronald Reagan wrote the play book on this one. Agree to disagree and WALK THE F AWAY. Deal with more pressing issues, such as fiscal problems and preserving the Constitution.

Yep.

319 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:23:57pm
320 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:24:26pm

Creationist email:

Ms Wright cleaned Dawkins' clock ! Your commentary denigrating Wright was so far off base as to be laughable. She was brilliant and Dawkins stepped on a land mine. I'll not forget either of them for a very long time.

321 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:24:49pm

re: #297 mich-again

Like her.

the erf muvver has empowered her pits with the glorious mane of gaia herself to defend against zionist neocon hair rayz

322 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:24:59pm

re: #288 _RememberTonyC

bullshit they're "not happy" with Obama. you are not talking to fools here. just who would the "far left" vote for in 2012, Obama or ANY Republican?


I recall Jimmy Carter had a real fight on his hands in 1980 to hold onto the Democratic nomination. The Party really, really wanted to give it to SOMEONE else; ABC (Anybody But Carter).
/welcome back Carter

323 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:25:19pm

re: #312 buzzsawmonkey

You are poetic this evening.

it gets worse, sad to say, much worse

/

324 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:25:54pm
325 mich-again  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:26:32pm

re: #301 TheMatrix31

I'm sick of only hearing about how conservatives have to move to the center, whether that statement is true or not.

So is moving to the right a better course? Or should they stay right where they are.

326 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:26:33pm

re: #320 Charles

Creationist email:

The clock-cleaniong must've been in the 4.5 parts I skipped to reunite my dinner with the pristine waters of my local MUD.

/

327 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:26:49pm
328 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:26:54pm

re: #304 Desert Dog

Eight years of Republican mismanagement left everyone weary. Too bad the replacements are even worse, eh?

we took it to the jihadis, but GWB blew an opportunity to really define my style of conservatism for decades, maybe forever...that said BO is an unmitigated disaster and I really find it difficult to be civil with his apologists...as Charles reminds me once in a while

329 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:26:59pm

re: #320 Charles

Creationist email:

Wait, she did what to his clock?

330 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:27:06pm

re: #320 Charles

Creationist email:

Ms Wright cleaned Dawkins' clock ! Your commentary denigrating Wright was so far off base as to be laughable. She was brilliant and Dawkins stepped on a land mine. I'll not forget either of them for a very long time.

Just yet more proof that people tend to hear what they want to hear, rather than what is actually being said, and tend to believe that the people with whom they agree win debates with those with whom they disagree, whether they actually do or not.

331 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:27:06pm

re: #320 Charles

Delusional may be a great way to go through life.

332 Dustoff-507  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:27:16pm

re: #324 buzzsawmonkey

I think the Congressional acquisition of private jets.
Not just jets, but one of the most $$$ Hey it's just our bucks! crap. )-:"

333 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:27:23pm

re: #324 buzzsawmonkey

I think the Congressional acquisition of private jets is an indication that an increasing number of Congresspeople don't dare fly commercial, lest they encounter the wrath of constituents.

the hoi-polloi smell awful in the summer, don't you agree?

334 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:28:09pm

re: #298 OldLineTexan

spending like a drunken sailor

as my BIL tells me, at least it was his own money he was blowing.

BTW, don't know if you caught it, but my Snapple lid real fact yesterday was that Texas is the only state you can vote absentee if you're in outer space.
Schweet.

335 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:28:11pm
336 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:28:25pm

re: #322 NelsFree

I recall Jimmy Carter had a real fight on his hands in 1980 to hold onto the Democratic nomination. The Party really, really wanted to give it to SOMEONE else; ABC (Anybody But Carter).
/welcome back Carter

different dynamic completely. carter had to fend off a kennedy, so it was a battle between 2 similar looking guys. In our PC era where racism charges are tossed around so casually, anyone in the Dem party who dares to challenge Obama (unless it is another African American) will immediately be called a racist by many in the party. Nobody will risk their reputation like that.

337 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:28:31pm

re: #324 buzzsawmonkey

I think the Congressional acquisition of private jets is an indication that an increasing number of Congresspeople don't dare fly commercial, lest they encounter the wrath of constituents.

Maybe they ordered up some F-117's

338 mich-again  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:28:34pm

re: #321 OldLineTexan

the erf muvver has empowered her pits with the glorious mane of gaia herself to defend against zionist neocon hair rayz

That photo just got a caption. Perfect.

339 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:29:54pm

re: #320 Charles

Creationist email:

As I commented above, they live in a magical fairyland.
They see and believe what they want to see and believe.
Facts and logic go straight past them.

340 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:29:57pm

re: #324 buzzsawmonkey

I think the Congressional acquisition of private jets is an indication that an increasing number of Congresspeople don't dare fly commercial, lest they encounter the wrath of constituents.

More evidence of a "Ruling Elite" mentality. What would Robespierre say?

341 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:30:11pm

re: #322 NelsFree

I recall Jimmy Carter had a real fight on his hands in 1980 to hold onto the Democratic nomination. The Party really, really wanted to give it to SOMEONE else; ABC (Anybody But Carter).
/welcome back Carter

And, the rest of the country felt the same way too.

Reagan, 489 Electoral Votes
43,903,230 popular

Carter, 49 Electoral Votes
35,480,115 popular

342 mich-again  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:30:21pm

re: #320 Charles

Creationist email:

She must have been speaking in tongues because I heard it in another language.

343 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:30:38pm

Good evening dear lizards!
Hope you are all well and healthy today...
Armywife: Hope you are well... My son returns with the 3/5th Marines in a couple of weeks...I am totally jacked..
Let me be the first to say... WELCOME HOME HERO'S!

344 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:30:39pm
345 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:30:44pm

re: #317 _RememberTonyC

I better hit "The Book."

here's one link

346 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:30:59pm

re: #337 The Shadow Do

Maybe they ordered up some F-117's

fine...maybe she will cop a shock and awe stiffy

347 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:31:06pm

8 years of Republican mismanagement? 8 years of BDS maybe.

348 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:31:06pm

re: #324 buzzsawmonkey

I think the Congressional acquisition of private jets is an indication that an increasing number of Congresspeople don't dare fly commercial, lest they encounter the wrath of constituents.

Then they should be coached in political common sense.

349 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:31:07pm

re: #324 buzzsawmonkey

I think the Congressional acquisition of private jets is an indication that an increasing number of Congresspeople don't dare fly commercial, lest they encounter the wrath of constituents.

t
o
u
g
h


s
h
i
t

350 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:31:24pm

re: #335 buzzsawmonkey

Who can afford good deodorants when the money goes to Washington?

Secret - Strong enough for Barney, but made for a...wait.

351 TheMatrix31  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:31:46pm

re: #325 mich-again

So is moving to the right a better course? Or should they stay right where they are.

I said whether that statement is true or not. I never said anything about moving more to the right. I'd prefer for them to have a defined message excluding and condemning the lunatics first, saying this isn't who we are, and this isn't who we're coming. Then you decide from there. The message, whatever they want it to be, has to be defined first.

Just give me politicians with testicles that aren't afraid to call out bullshit, that aren't afraid to stand up to our enemies, that won't recklessly spend everything we have, that won't let everyone and their mothers come into the country illegally, that won't bend over backwards for people, that will allow states to control social issues...etc

That's all I want, and that's all we need. Define the message, make it clear and understandable (WHY conservatism is the correct choice can often be a confusing thing to explain), and people will follow.

352 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:31:50pm
353 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:31:58pm

re: #334 SasquatchOnSteroids

as my BIL tells me, at least it was his own money he was blowing.

BTW, don't know if you caught it, but my Snapple lid real fact yesterday was that Texas is the only state you can vote absentee if you're in outer space.
Schweet.

hmmm

354 Irenicum  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:32:07pm

re: #253 Desert Dog

Ohhh, urine trouble!

355 scion9  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:32:07pm

re: #210 Shug

Well I know a ton of Democrats (many of my black coworkers, and many members of my unionista/public servant family) that self identify as 'conservative' and they mean 'religious, church-going', not fiscally or ideologically conservative. I don't know if my experiences are representative at all but I suspect that they are. These people are firmly economic left 'conservatives' and would never vote GOP in a million years.

356 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:33:22pm

re: #343 HoosierHoops

Good evening dear lizards!
Hope you are all well and healthy today...
Armywife: Hope you are well... My son returns with the 3/5th Marines in a couple of weeks...I am totally jacked..
Let me be the first to say... WELCOME HOME HERO'S!

Hoosier ... you are a great American and so is your heroic son.

357 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:33:54pm

re: #351 TheMatrix31

I said whether that statement is true or not. I never said anything about moving more to the right. I'd prefer for them to have a defined message excluding and condemning the lunatics first, saying this isn't who we are, and this isn't who we're coming. Then you decide from there. The message, whatever they want it to be, has to be defined first.

Just give me politicians with testicles that aren't afraid to call out bullshit, that aren't afraid to stand up to our enemies, that won't recklessly spend everything we have, that won't let everyone and their mothers come into the country illegally, that won't bend over backwards for people, that will allow states to control social issues...etc

That's all I want, and that's all we need. Define the message, make it clear and understandable (WHY conservatism is the correct choice can often be a confusing thing to explain), and people will follow.

term limits...get some new blood flowing through congress

358 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:34:00pm

re: #353 OldLineTexan

hmmm

Noes ?

359 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:34:01pm
360 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:34:01pm

re: #299 Desert Dog

I guess Bush was right on all that after all? Obama has basically kept the same strategy in place.

I don't have a problem agreeing with that. Afghanistan is important, and the POTUS not rushing out of Iraq is the correct decision. As to the torture and wire taps, it was a different, difficult time, and even if thinks were done that might be questionable in hindsight, it made no sense to pursue it.

361 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:34:30pm

re: #328 albusteve

we took it to the jihadis, but GWB blew an opportunity to really define my style of conservatism for decades, maybe forever...that said BO is an unmitigated disaster and I really find it difficult to be civil with his apologists...as Charles reminds me once in a while

Much of the blame for the Republican's downward slip is on Bush's shoulders. Just like Clinton damaged the Democrats. I like President Bush, but he did not always do the right thing. However, I place even more blame on the Republican caucus in the House and Senate. They wasted away and spent too much and basically acted like Democrats. Poor Leadership!

362 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:34:40pm

re: #336 _RememberTonyC

different dynamic completely. carter had to fend off a kennedy, so it was a battle between 2 similar looking guys. In our PC era where racism charges are tossed around so casually, anyone in the Dem party who dares to challenge Obama (unless it is another African American) will immediately be called a racist by many in the party. Nobody will risk their reputation like that.

Reality filters do not help you, young paduwan.
You choose to ignore the complete mess that Carter made of the economy and foreign policy and instead focus on...Race?!
Good grief.

363 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:34:47pm

re: #343 HoosierHoops


WHOOHOO! Of course you will give him a hug and kiss from me?

364 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:34:53pm

re: #347 kansas

8 years of Republican mismanagement? 8 years of BDS maybe.

both, I'd say

365 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:35:18pm

re: #332 Dustoff-507

I think the Congressional acquisition of private jets.
Not just jets, but one of the most $$$ Hey it's just our bucks! crap. )-:"

The Oligarchy demands it's perks.
Back to work peon, somebody has to pay for it!

/;-P

366 TheMatrix31  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:35:18pm

re: #357 albusteve

term limits...get some new blood flowing through congress

That's a good one. Definitely true.

367 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:35:24pm

Out for the evening.

Hoops! Great news!

Everyone have a very good night.

368 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:35:24pm

re: #358 SasquatchOnSteroids

Noes ?

i am not knowing ... seems to me that not every astronaut lives in Texas ... and many are military ... but i am fifteen years out of the space bidness

369 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:35:45pm

After watching that I was deeply impressed with how cool headed Dawkins was.

On a deeper note, this was a very instructive video. She was quite well spoken for a wingnut, and she says falsehoods with utter conviction. Most people don't decide issues based on facts. They argue based on how much they "trust" the speaker. A level headed speaker who repeats simple lie after simple lie (like no transitional fossils) with utter conviction will be very believable. The concept the lie expresses is easy to understand. The truth is more complex and not as easy a concept. If the scientist does not carefully press a point, as in the point that Dawkins made about genetics, in a way that the third party listener can quickly grasp, then the conviction of the "other side" that dismisses the evidence will carry because what the other side is saying is easy to understand even if it is false and it is said with utter conviction.

The most important thing I have gotten from this is how we are loosing.

This also carries through into the anti-Israel propaganda. The supporters of Israel try to make elaborate, fact based arguments that they know are historically accurate. The detractors simply speak simple lies with utter conviction. The most effective propaganda is not complex. It is a simple lie. There are no transitional fossils, There is no Jewish connection to the Land, There is no evidence of AGW. Darwinism is a conspiracy that forces other scientists who disagree to be black balled. Israel lobbyists are a conspiracy that keeps the evil truth about Israel hidden by black baling other academics. AGW is a conspiracy that forces other scientists who disagree to be black balled. Evolution has an evil history that lead to Nazism. Israel has an evil history that makes them Nazis. AGW has an evil agenda that will produce a one world Nazi government.

Again the point is in how much we have the cards stacked against us, because the average person does not look into the facts. The facts are much more complicated than the easy and simple lies said with utter conviction.

370 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:35:59pm

re: #364 Desert Dog

both, I'd say

Yeah, I agree with that.

371 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:36:00pm

I don't have time for the vids right now, but I'll bookmark them

Must say, Charles, that from what I know of Dawkins's absolutist atheism, the term "glazed mind" (as in frozen brain?) could be applied to both of the interlocutors here.

372 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:36:06pm

re: #355 scion9

Well I know a ton of Democrats (many of my black coworkers, and many members of my unionista/public servant family) that self identify as 'conservative' and they mean 'religious, church-going', not fiscally or ideologically conservative. I don't know if my experiences are representative at all but I suspect that they are. These people are firmly economic left 'conservatives' and would never vote GOP in a million years.


2 of my partners at work are African American.
You want to talk about social conservative , Family oriented educated, smart. they are all of those things. They also live their lives as fiscal conservatives as any republican.
They are the best of republican party in every aspect of their lives.

but as I've scratched my head time and time again, each election they vote for the democrats...

I don't get it

373 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:36:20pm

re: #368 OldLineTexan

i am not knowing ... seems to me that not every astronaut lives in Texas ... and many are military ... but i am fifteen years out of the space bidness

Snapple would not lie to me. She has been good to me.
Must be a Houston thing.

374 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:36:28pm

re: #365 jcm

The Oligarchy demands it's perks.
Back to work peon, somebody has to pay for it!

/;-P

break's over! back on yer heads!

375 Flyers1974  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:36:32pm

re: #283 albusteve

well that's not exactly good news...DKos is a minority, DU is a minority...the question I ask is this...can the GOP win elections without the fringe?

Right now, I don't think it's mathematically possible. In the future, if the GOP were to reject the fringe (in a realistic manner of course, i.e., reject the fringe without blatently telling them to f-off) and if Obama's economic actions turn out to be the future staus quo, not temporary fixes, I could see enough Obama voters defecting and making up for the fringe who bail on the GOP.

376 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:36:49pm
377 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:36:52pm

re: #361 Desert Dog

Much of the blame for the Republican's downward slip is on Bush's shoulders. Just like Clinton damaged the Democrats. I like President Bush, but he did not always do the right thing. However, I place even more blame on the Republican caucus in the House and Senate. They wasted away and spent too much and basically acted like Democrats. Poor Leadership!

and to expect the void to be filled miraculously in the next year...I have my doubts...I wish it were different

378 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:37:13pm

re: #376 buzzsawmonkey


on fiaaah tonight

379 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:37:18pm

re: #362 NelsFree

Reality filters do not help you, young paduwan.
You choose to ignore the complete mess that Carter made of the economy and foreign policy and instead focus on...Race?!
Good grief.


I don't know if you're joking or not, dude. carter was a disaster for sure. But if you really think Kennedy challenging carter in 1980 is the same as any caucasion democrat challenging the first African American president ever, I have to say you're denying the obvious.

380 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:37:22pm

re: #324 buzzsawmonkey

I think the Congressional acquisition of private jets is an indication that an increasing number of Congresspeople don't dare fly commercial, lest they encounter the wrath of constituents.

We should invoke Ron Paul I think, in this case I agree with his philosophy 100%. We should return to the standards of 1787.

All congress people should travel by horse and carriage.

381 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:37:49pm

re: #373 SasquatchOnSteroids

Snapple would not lie to me. She has been good to me.
Must be a Houston thing.

i've been in (or close enough!) to houston for 46 years

382 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:37:49pm

re: #371 Cato the Elder

I don't have time for the vids right now, but I'll bookmark them

Must say, Charles, that from what I know of Dawkins's absolutist atheism, the term "glazed mind" (as in frozen brain?) could be applied to both of the interlocutors here.

Except Dawkin is right.

383 Erik The Red  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:38:51pm

re: #343 HoosierHoops

Good evening dear lizards!
Hope you are all well and healthy today...
Armywife: Hope you are well... My son returns with the 3/5th Marines in a couple of weeks...I am totally jacked..
Let me be the first to say... WELCOME HOME HERO'S!

Hey 2H. I know where you are coming from. Enjoy your boys return. :)

How is the fishing and drinking going?

384 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:38:56pm

re: #366 TheMatrix31

That's a good one. Definitely true.


Another concept that the People ought to like is,"Elect me and I'll reduce the size of Government, except for the Military, by XX% by the end of my first term!"
Have we started the list of Gov't agencies that can be eliminated completely? How about the Dept of Education? Even though it's done a stellar job in making our High School grads competitive with the World.
/sarc

385 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:39:21pm

re: #381 OldLineTexan

i've been in (or close enough!) to houston for 46 years

I defer to your wisdom, Oh Rocketeer.

386 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:40:19pm

re: #385 SasquatchOnSteroids

I defer to your wisdom, Oh Rocketeer.

i said i don't know! gave up on rocket science, it was too easy

;)

387 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:40:21pm

re: #382 Walter L. Newton

Except Dawkin is right.

About evolution, no doubt. About theology? He's a cretin.

388 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:40:27pm

re: #380 jcm

We should invoke Ron Paul I think, in this case I agree with his philosophy 100%. We should return to the standards of 1787.

All congress people should travel by horse and carriage.

With the horse as the driver.

389 lincolntf  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:40:35pm

With all the sound and fury about "fishy" blog conversations and other questionable Obama surveillance initiatives, I missed Pelosi's recent claim about the people attending Q&A's concerning health care.Yes, she actually says "swastikas"


Add "paranoid" and "delusional" to the list of adjectives that describe iour current Leadership.

390 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:40:39pm
391 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:40:43pm

re: #372 Shug

2 of my partners at work are African American.
You want to talk about social conservative , Family oriented educated, smart. they are all of those things. They also live their lives as fiscal conservatives as any republican.
They are the best of republican party in every aspect of their lives.

but as I've scratched my head time and time again, each election they vote for the democrats...

I don't get it

My Dad was that way, fiscally conservative, socially conservative, espoused things Reagan supported. Yet I grew up thinking the name of the party was Fucking Republican.

392 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:40:49pm

re: #380 jcm

Why would you do that to horses??? My horses would like you to know they are in total disagreement and feel congresscritters should ride via rail, something they are oddly fascinated with anyway!

393 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:40:57pm

re: #387 Cato the Elder

About evolution, no doubt. About theology? He's a cretin.

Evolution = science, theology = man developed myth.

394 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:41:01pm

re: #375 Flyers1974

Right now, I don't think it's mathematically possible. In the future, if the GOP were to reject the fringe (in a realistic manner of course, i.e., reject the fringe without blatently telling them to f-off) and if Obama's economic actions turn out to be the future staus quo, not temporary fixes, I could see enough Obama voters defecting and making up for the fringe who bail on the GOP.

regretfully I believe this is the GOP strategy...implode, suck up the disenchanted and claim numerical victory...it's the same question I keep asking...is this the plan?...can conservatism win on it's own merit?...I dunno

395 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:41:51pm

re: #376 buzzsawmonkey

Take a share of BDS
Every day
Take a share of BDS
Get your way
Take a share of BDS
It's all fine!
Take a share of BDS
And work it overtime.

You are workin overtime...work out.

396 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:42:09pm

re: #363 ArmyWife

WHOOHOO! Of course you will give him a hug and kiss from me?

Because I know you know the stress of a loved one in Combat...Thank you from the bottom of my heart...Jordan's life dream is to be a policeman..
I am so proud of him...I am so proud of the US Marines...
I am proud to be a US Marine Dad.. Our boys will be home in a couple of weeks...Damn!

397 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:42:19pm

re: #390 buzzsawmonkey

Excellent post. Would that I could remain and discourse with you, but I must away.

You rock as always Buzzy.

398 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:42:43pm

re: #369 LudwigVanQuixote

I would claim that the simple untruth "The earth is warming and it's all our fault!" is being relentlessly repeated on the AGW side and the folks that make the complicated case as to why at least the second half of this assertion is in serious empirical doubt have much the more difficult memetic case to make.

399 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:42:49pm

re: #330 Salamantis

Just yet more proof that people tend to hear what they want to hear, rather than what is actually being said, and tend to believe that the people with whom they agree win debates with those with whom they disagree, whether they actually do or not.

I need to be honest, at the risk of ticking some off, but I feel the same way when some talk about Palin's great speech's. I watched her resignation speech, and am still not sure what she said. Nice, smart lady, but she strings her thoughts together in a way I often can't follow. Then again, I love Obama's speeches, so you may have a point.

400 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:42:54pm

re: #392 ArmyWife

Why would you do that to horses??? My horses would like you to know they are in total disagreement and feel congresscritters should ride via rail, something they are oddly fascinated with anyway!

As long as it's this rail...

401 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:42:56pm

re: #345 OldLineTexan

here's one link


rough stuff ... I'm not a dog person, but that is harsh!

402 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:43:26pm

re: #397 LudwigVanQuixote

You rock as always Buzzy.

he won't admit it but he digs the Stones too...good guy

403 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:43:26pm

re: #396 HoosierHoops

I know the stress, and I know equally the button popping pride. I couldn't be more proud of Jordan, either.

404 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:44:46pm

re: #372 Shug

2 of my partners at work are African American.
You want to talk about social conservative , Family oriented educated, smart. they are all of those things. They also live their lives as fiscal conservatives as any republican.
They are the best of republican party in every aspect of their lives.

but as I've scratched my head time and time again, each election they vote for the democrats...

I don't get it

Is there anything resembling a black caucus in the Republican Party? If not , there should be.

405 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:44:56pm

re: #403 ArmyWife

I know the stress, and I know equally the button popping pride. I couldn't be more proud of Jordan, either.


You, Hoosier, and the other Military Lizards and families make all of us proud. God Bless you all

406 TheMatrix31  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:45:13pm

re: #399 avanti

I need to be honest, at the risk of ticking some off, but I feel the same way when some talk about Palin's great speech's. I watched her resignation speech, and am still not sure what she said. Nice, smart lady, but she strings her thoughts together in a way I often can't follow. Then again, I love Obama's speeches, so you may have a point.

That's shocking.

407 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:45:26pm

re: #399 avanti

I need to be honest, at the risk of ticking some off, but I feel the same way when some talk about Palin's great speech's. I watched her resignation speech, and am still not sure what she said. Nice, smart lady, but she strings her thoughts together in a way I often can't follow. Then again, I love Obama's speeches, so you may have a point.

you love BOs speeches...that says alot right there...hahaha!...speeches? hahaha!

408 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:45:35pm

re: #398 Salamantis

I would claim that the simple untruth "The earth is warming and it's all our fault!" is being relentlessly repeated on the AGW side and the folks that make the complicated case as to why at least the second half of this assertion is in serious empirical doubt have much the more difficult memetic case to make.

Sal you are wrong.

The Earth is warming.

It is our fault that it is warming so much. The is no longer any serious doubt in the scientific community, empirical or otherwise, about this.

We are to blame.

There will be consequences for it.

409 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:46:30pm

My Moonbat Brother (MMT™) is a Dawkinsian atheist.

His arguments are as circular as any Young Earther's.

410 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:46:56pm
411 Flyers1974  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:46:56pm

re: #361 Desert Dog

Much of the blame for the Republican's downward slip is on Bush's shoulders. Just like Clinton damaged the Democrats. I like President Bush, but he did not always do the right thing. However, I place even more blame on the Republican caucus in the House and Senate. They wasted away and spent too much and basically acted like Democrats. Poor Leadership!

I remember believing Karl Rove when he made that statement about a permanent Republican majority. I think part of the equation is indeed that the GOP spent as much as the Dems, but I also think the Iraq war's aftermath had a huge part to play. I'd also say that while talk radio and the internet mobilized Republican voters, those mediums also had a big part to play in the GOP becoming more radical.

412 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:47:53pm

re: #398 Salamantis

I would claim that the simple untruth "The earth is warming and it's all our fault!" is being relentlessly repeated on the AGW side and the folks that make the complicated case as to why at least the second half of this assertion is in serious empirical doubt have much the more difficult memetic case to make.

Sorry, I just re-read what you wrote. You are perhaps correct in terms of memetics. However, the memetics are not strong enough to get people to significantly change their behaviors.

413 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:48:14pm

re: #399 avanti

I need to be honest, at the risk of ticking some off, but I feel the same way when some talk about Palin's great speech's. I watched her resignation speech, and am still not sure what she said. Nice, smart lady, but she strings her thoughts together in a way I often can't follow. Then again, I love Obama's speeches, so you may have a point.

I support her, but she is annoying to me too, how about that? I don't like Obama's speeches because I believe nothing he reads from the teleprompter.

414 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:48:42pm

re: #379 _RememberTonyC

I don't know if you're joking or not, dude. carter was a disaster for sure. But if you really think Kennedy challenging carter in 1980 is the same as any caucasion democrat challenging the first African American president ever, I have to say you're denying the obvious.


Dear Fellow Dude,
It is my opinion that, if Obama makes as bad a mess by 2012 that Carter made by 1980, race will be a minor factor. Race should not be a factor at all, anyway! Americans need to get past the charisma and look at the facts.
I know a lady who, in a breathless bit of excitement, exclaimed,"I just helped elect the first Black man President!" Like that was the overriding factor. Well, it should never be. Many of us know better.

415 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:48:45pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

Sal you are wrong.

The Earth is warming.

It is our fault that it is warming so much. The is no longer any serious doubt in the scientific community, empirical or otherwise, about this.

We are to blame.

There will be consequences for it.

This may well be true.

What I doubt is that anything we do short of voluntary extinction or ending civilization as we know it or enforced ant-like eco-sociofascism will alter the outcome.

Meanwhile, I shall live as a free man. And park my "clunker" in the hybrids-only spaces at Whole Foods as often as I can.

416 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:48:57pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

Sal you are wrong.

The Earth is warming.

It is our fault that it is warming so much. The is no longer any serious doubt in the scientific community, empirical or otherwise, about this.

We are to blame.

There will be consequences for it.

Then why was it almost as hot in the '30's as it is now, and even hotter a millennium ago, when Greenland was farmed?

I have seen absolutely NO empirical evidence that terrestrial temperature fluctuations are not mostly due to cyclic solar fluctuations or terrestrial orbit wobbles.

Zip.

Zilch.

Nada.

Put up or...

417 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:49:17pm

re: #411 Flyers1974

I remember believing Karl Rove when he made that statement about a permanent Republican majority. I think part of the equation is indeed that the GOP spent as much as the Dems, but I also think the Iraq war's aftermath had a huge part to play. I'd also say that while talk radio and the internet mobilized Republican voters, those mediums also had a big part to play in the GOP becoming more radical.

Good points as well

418 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:49:25pm

Another creationist email, from Cincinnati:

Are you really just a fucking lib leading all your sheepish readers into
the fire? You used to be cool. What happened?

419 HelloDare  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:49:26pm

re: #26 Charles

I think this might be one of the most annoying interviews I've ever watched.

One minute and eighteen seconds of her is all I could stand.

420 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:50:20pm

re: #419 HelloDare

One minute and eighteen seconds of her is all I could stand.

I'm pretty sure Orly Taitz in interview format would give her a run for the title.

421 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:50:21pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

Sal you are wrong.

The Earth is warming.

It is our fault that it is warming so much. The is no longer any serious doubt in the scientific community, empirical or otherwise, about this.

We are to blame.

There will be consequences for it.

Until the some on right can disassociate Gore and politics from the issue, facts will have no impact.

422 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:50:24pm

re: #418 Charles

They must not believe it's part of the plan.

423 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:50:54pm

re: #410 buzzsawmonkey

Hey, early Stones stuff is great; I was in England back when "It's All Over Now" came out, and everyone was nuts about it. Of course, that was back when the Stones, the Beatles and the Dave Clark Five (who?) were battling it out for Top Band.

And now I have to run.

Catch us when you can.

424 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:51:31pm

re: #416 Salamantis

Sal- the slightest factor can and does impact the climate. It's hard to deny an increase of emissions from humans cannot affect the climate.

425 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:51:35pm

for buzz...

Youtube Video
426 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:51:44pm

re: #421 avanti

Until the some on right can disassociate Gore and politics from the issue, facts will have no impact.

I mentioned neither of them. And I have yet to see the empirical facts I requersted.

427 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:51:58pm

re: #416 Salamantis

Then why was it almost as hot in the '30's as it is now, and even hotter a millennium ago, when Greenland was farmed?

I have seen absolutely NO empirical evidence that terrestrial temperature fluctuations are not mostly due to cyclic solar fluctuations or terrestrial orbit wobbles.

Zip.

Zilch.

Nada.

Put up or...

Well, here in dust bowl country it was much hotter in the 30's, not almost as hot. Plus even if man does have some impact, wouldn't India and China have more of an impact than the paltry 300 million here in the US? I'm with you on the sun activity aspect.

428 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:52:14pm

re: #421 avanti

Until the some on right can disassociate Gore and politics from the issue, facts will have no impact.

Until all the solutions involved don't sound like Das Kapital leftovers rewarmed with a new green sauce.

429 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:52:42pm

re: #423 solomonpanting

Catch us when you can.

heh...good one

430 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:52:44pm

re: #428 jcm

Until all the solutions involved don't sound like Das Kapital leftovers rewarmed with a new green sauce.

That's a good one! I will steal that...green sauce...classic!

431 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:52:47pm

re: #399 avanti

Break the TOTUS and let's see the two of them go head to head

I'll put my money on Palin

432 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:52:59pm

re: #418 Charles

Another creationist email, from Cincinnati:

Are you really just a fucking lib leading all your sheepish readers into
the fire? You used to be cool. What happened?

Global warming?

433 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:53:16pm

re: #421 avanti

Until the some on right can disassociate Gore and politics from the issue, facts will have no impact.

There was a fact in that post?

434 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:53:24pm

re: #431 Shug

Break the TOTUS and let's see the two of them go head to head

I'll put my money on Palin

*wink*

435 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:53:52pm

re: #424 Sharmuta

Sal- the slightest factor can and does impact the climate. It's hard to deny an increase of emissions from humans cannot affect the climate.

But whether or not human emissions contributes a significant percentage to global warming, or whether the lion's share of global warming is due to solar cycle or terrestrial orbit permutations beyond human control, is the question that has NEVER been empirically answered, and always seems to be avoided.

436 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:53:52pm

re: #428 jcm

For one thing, building more nuclear reactors would be preferable to the first impulse, a carbon indulgences trading scheme.

437 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:54:02pm

re: #416 Salamantis

Then why was it almost as hot in the '30's as it is now, and even hotter a millennium ago, when Greenland was farmed?

I have seen absolutely NO empirical evidence that terrestrial temperature fluctuations are not mostly due to cyclic solar fluctuations or terrestrial orbit wobbles.

Zip.

Zilch.

Nada.

Put up or...


the great lakes would agree with you since they were carved out by glaciers

438 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:54:21pm

re: #432 solomonpanting

Global warming?

Hey, China still cool!

/Simpsons

439 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:54:21pm

re: #413 kansas

I support her, but she is annoying to me too, how about that? I don't like Obama's speeches because I believe nothing he reads from the teleprompter.

Yet another upding for honesty. I was not addressing the content of Obaba speeches, but he has a pastors cadence that I like. I did not always agree with Reagan's politics, but I liked to hear him talk too.

440 scion9  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:55:10pm

Nirthers, abortion, evolution, and global warming? Superfecta?

441 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:55:40pm

re: #436 jaunte

For one thing, building more nuclear reactors would be preferable to the first impulse, a carbon indulgences trading scheme.

NUCLEAR! OHMYGODWEREALLGOINGTODIE!

/ glowinthedarkphobic

442 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:55:43pm

The lady is looking for evidence. Hard, solid evidence. The facts, please. She just wants to see one instance, one single instance, of a single bird, just one, evolving into a mammal.

/hermeticallysealedmind

443 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:55:44pm

re: #440 scion9

Nirthers, abortion, evolution, and global warming? Superfecta?

not so ... nary a ruffle in sight, much less a flounce

444 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:55:52pm

re: #440 scion9

Nirthers, abortion, evolution, and global warming? Superfecta?

Bring on the supertankers!

445 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:56:18pm

re: #343 HoosierHoops

Good evening dear lizards!
Hope you are all well and healthy today...
Armywife: Hope you are well... My son returns with the 3/5th Marines in a couple of weeks...I am totally jacked..
Let me be the first to say... WELCOME HOME HERO'S!

That's great HH! Congratulations to you both & your families

446 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:56:21pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

Sal you are wrong.

The Earth is warming.

It is our fault that it is warming so much. The is no longer any serious doubt in the scientific community, empirical or otherwise, about this.

We are to blame.

There will be consequences for it.

I think there is still a reasonable doubt. The skeptics are not popular, but there are still there. I don't see any reason to squash the debate, given the importance of the issue. YOu seem to have done some research on the subject. I'd be interested in seeing what models/data you think are valid, etc. My problem has been that the models do not account for temperature excursions in the past. Also, data in the fossil record suggests that CO2 rises in response to higher temps, not the other way around.
Love to discuss further as you are always well informed.

447 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:56:23pm

re: #440 scion9

Nirthers, abortion, evolution, and global warming? Superfecta?

Oh my...

448 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:56:25pm

re: #415 Cato the Elder

This may well be true.

What I doubt is that anything we do short of voluntary extinction or ending civilization as we know it or enforced ant-like eco-sociofascism will alter the outcome.

Meanwhile, I shall live as a free man. And park my "clunker" in the hybrids-only spaces at Whole Foods as often as I can.

Actually there are things we can do. There are all sorts of things that we can do without resorting to an ant like socialism. This is part of what is so very frustrating to me and every other scientist.

There are all sorts of low hanging fruits that we could grab.

We just aren't. It is a failure of our leadership and it's political will to do these useful things.

It is a failure of the political debate that questions of solutions are reduced to either/or scare tactics about socialism vs. capitalism.

How about nuclear?

How about investing in and dispersing the new high density batteries so that people could have practical electric cars and practical solar supplementation to their homes and businesses?

How about not buying cheap crap from Chinese and Indian sweatshops, therefore no longer funding their giant industrial contribution to the problem?

How about painting your roof white? If you think that sounds crazy, then you have forgotten grade school where they did the experiment with the black cup of water in the sunlight and the white one.

How about not buying oil from evil countries that hate us? Do you think that if staunched the flow of those dollars it would be good for the economy?

No, these are easy things to do, they are sensible things to do, and they are the proper things to do in their own right even without AGW. Yet, from the Dems, we get cap and trade and from the GOP we get scientific falsehood and scaremongering.

449 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:57:00pm

re: #414 NelsFree

Dear Fellow Dude,
It is my opinion that, if Obama makes as bad a mess by 2012 that Carter made by 1980, race will be a minor factor. Race should not be a factor at all, anyway! Americans need to get past the charisma and look at the facts.
I know a lady who, in a breathless bit of excitement, exclaimed,"I just helped elect the first Black man President!" Like that was the overriding factor. Well, it should never be. Many of us know better.


i agree that race should not be a factor. But we don't live in an ideal world where people are smarter than that. so sadly, race will definitely be a factor. Am I happy about it? No. But just because we don't think it should be a factor doesn't make it so. And if you asked 100 Lizards on this board if a White Democrat challenging Obama for the nomination would have his race used against him by Obama's supporters, I'd say at least 95 out of 100 would say "yes."

450 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:57:02pm

re: #441 jcm

So as not to be seen as copying the French, we will call it "freedom fission."

451 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:57:13pm

re: #439 avanti

A cadence of stuttering, awkward pauses, and flat intonation. Glad YOU like it because it sure is starting to turn off an increasing number of once friendly moderates.

452 lincolntf  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:57:36pm

re: #421 avanti

"Gore and politics" are the crux of the issue. Otherwise we're all just comparing weather reports.
The "solution" proposed by Gore, etc. is the same one proposed for everything that the Left thinks needs doing: More money to Gov't, less freedom to individuals and businesses. Whatever "solution" the Global warming enthusiasts decide on, there will be no measurable goals, the program will last forever and differing views will equal insanity (or worse).

453 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:57:50pm

re: #418 Charles

Another creationist email, from Cincinnati:


Are you really just a fucking lib leading all your sheepish readers into
the fire? You used to be cool. What happened?


That is so wrong. You are way, way Obama man...

454 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:58:13pm

re: #451 FurryOldGuyJeans

A cadence of stuttering, awkward pauses, and flat intonation. Glad YOU like it because it sure is starting to turn off an increasing number of once friendly moderates.

drones

455 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:58:30pm

re: #415 Cato the Elder

This may well be true.

What I doubt is that anything we do short of voluntary extinction or ending civilization as we know it or enforced ant-like eco-sociofascism will alter the outcome.

Meanwhile, I shall live as a free man. And park my "clunker" in the hybrids-only spaces at Whole Foods as often as I can.

I share that concern, even if we cut way back on CO2, we won't halt warming for a half century and I won't be here to worry about it. I think reasonable steps can be taken though, energy savings, nuke power and the like.

456 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:58:30pm

re: #416 Salamantis

Then why was it almost as hot in the '30's as it is now, and even hotter a millennium ago, when Greenland was farmed?

I have seen absolutely NO empirical evidence that terrestrial temperature fluctuations are not mostly due to cyclic solar fluctuations or terrestrial orbit wobbles.

Zip.

Zilch.

Nada.

Put up or...

Actually buddy you answered it yourself. The other warming periods were due to well known orbital wobbles whereas, the heating we are getting today is during a period where the orbital wobbles should actually be making us colder. All that talk about heading for an ice age in the 70's was not complete crap. We were heading towards one. It is just that the CO2 turned that around.

457 Ian MacGregor  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:59:03pm

The intelligent design discussions soon become an attack on religious belief in general. Are there any Judaeo-Christian religions which require a belief that the world came about exactly as laid out in Genesis? It's not just the time aspect, but the order is problematic with plants appearing before the sun. These denominations probably exist, but they are a small minority. I will say that no denomination goes out if its way to discourage belief that things happened exactly as laid down in Genesis as they fear the possibility of destroying faith. Destruction of faith is not a good thing.

Faith has totally changed people's lives, turned them into productive members of society rather than heartless criminals. The bible is not a scientific treatise on cosmology, biology, geology or any other science. It is a book about God. How much space is given to the creation story in the bible.

Now a belief in God pretty well forces one to believe that God is involved in the whole process. Whether being all knowing and simply starting the whole thing, or providing guidance at various points, and certainly scriptures say we are made in His image from which the first commandment against murder was given to Noah. Faith is not science, and science is not faith. Science depends on facts, on material evidence. Faith depends on the heart. Most people in the country have room for both.

The ad hominem attacks against Mrs. Wright are unnecessary. Her views can be refuted without them. She can live by her beliefs. She should know they are heart-felt faith, and not science.

458 The Left  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:59:05pm

re: #18 Right Brain

Dawkins is such a closed minded bully one wonder why Wright agreed to do the interview at all; Mr. Dawkins seems to fetishize the word "fact" as if its mere utterance proves his point, and he says the word again and again, he is a boring ROM-brain, incapable of serious dialog.

Yeah, Dawkins is a total bully, oppressing people with his facts and logic. Who does he think he is?

"Who are you who is so wise in the ways of science?"

/monty python

459 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 6:59:14pm

Bless her heart, she has a pretty smile.

460 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:00:07pm

re: #455 avanti

I share that concern, even if we cut way back on CO2, we won't halt warming for a half century and I won't be here to worry about it. I think reasonable steps can be taken though, energy savings, nuke power and the like.

do you write your congressmen about you energy concerns?...what did they say?

461 NelsFree  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:00:19pm

I must go. Time for my Three Affectations:
Cato the Elder: a fist bump for your clunker parking
LudwigVanQ: Please provide a timeline for the End of the Earth due to Man-made Global Warming. I'll wait.
Sharmuta: Global CO2 comprises 0.3% of Earth's atmosphere. Man-made CO2 is 5% of that. Do the Math after I hug you. {Sharmuta}

G'nite all.

462 Flyers1974  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:00:21pm

re: #409 Cato the Elder

My Moonbat Brother (MMT™) is a Dawkinsian atheist.

His arguments are as circular as any Young Earther's.

My brother, previously not into politics, was captivated by Ron Paul and seemed to be embracing at the same time, elements of communism and libertarianism. Out of the blue, he dropped the whole Ron Paul thing, etc... and started getting into all this classic western philosophy, normal stuff, like Plato, etc... . I'm thinking he was initially drawn to Ron Paul's speaking voice, which I have to admit, is rather plesent. Or maybe it was a youth thing in his case.

463 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:00:28pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

Sal you are wrong.

The Earth is warming.

It is our fault that it is warming so much. The is no longer any serious doubt in the scientific community, empirical or otherwise, about this.

We are to blame.

There will be consequences for it.

You may want to look into some material from Dr. Ian Plimer before you jump off the cliff.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

464 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:00:28pm

re: #421 avanti

Until the some on right can disassociate Gore and politics from the issue, facts will have no impact.

Facts will have no impact because the human ability to take appropriate measures in the face of vague but real future threats asymptotically approaches zero the further away the threat and the more exertion required to counter it.

Every sane human knew that World War Two was coming by 1933 at the latest. World War Two came anyway.

Human ability to shape human outcomes is negligible. Human ability to shape the planetary ecosystem (aside from self-extermination of humans) is nil.

465 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:00:30pm

I have to admit, I kept expecting her neck to crack open like a Pez dispenser, and a gross, slime-covered appendage to shoot out and impale Dawkins through the forehead and drain his life essence without ever stopping that voice from droning on about Haeckel's drawings and censorship and eugenicism and Hitler...

466 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:00:33pm

re: #459 MandyManners

Hey! I've been thinking about you lately. Everything ok in your world?

467 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:00:38pm

gotta run Lizards ... have a good night!

468 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:01:15pm

Mud soccer in Iceland

469 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:01:35pm

re: #465 Charles

I have to admit, I kept expecting her neck to crack open like a Pez dispenser, and a gross, slime-covered appendage to shoot out and impale Dawkins through the forehead and drain his life essence without ever stopping that voice from droning on about Haeckel's drawings and censorship and eugenicism and Hitler...

Now there's a lovely image. *retch*

470 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:02:05pm

re: #448 LudwigVanQuixote

See my #464.

471 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:02:36pm

re: #465 Charles

I have to admit, I kept expecting her neck to crack open like a Pez dispenser, and a gross, slime-covered appendage to shoot out and impale Dawkins through the forehead and drain his life essence without ever stopping that voice from droning on about Haeckel's drawings and censorship and eugenicism and Hitler...

good LORD!

472 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:02:43pm

re: #465 Charles

I have to admit, I kept expecting her neck to crack open like a Pez dispenser, and a gross, slime-covered appendage to shoot out and impale Dawkins through the forehead and drain his life essence without ever stopping that voice from droning on about Haeckel's drawings and censorship and eugenicism and Hitler...

Youtube Video
473 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:02:44pm

re: #458 iceweasel

Yeah, Dawkins is a total bully, oppressing people with his facts and logic. Who does he think he is?

"Who are you who is so wise in the ways of science?"

/monty python

We used to watch Monty Python as kids...They were really funny...We'll the parts you could understand.. They talk funny..
/

474 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:03:05pm

re: #448 LudwigVanQuixote

Do you have a poll of AGW proponents who support nuclear energy?

I support nuclear energy because it's practical, efficient, and cheap compared to importing oil for fuel. I don't have to "believe" AGW to side with you on it ... but a lot of your AGW fellow-travellers won't, I have a feeling.

As for battery technology, IMO you will be looking at a LOT of hazardous waste for a long time, and the greens are not going to like that either.

In my opinion, technological Luddites infest the AGW crowd like nirthers and Paulians latch on to Republicans.

475 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:03:16pm

re: #465 Charles

You have an incredible imagination. I'd love to go out and have a glass or 12 of wine with you and listen to you come up with this stuff. Assuming you didn't kill me after glass 6 when I started spouting off with my opinions on they way the world should be, that is.

476 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:03:35pm

re: #456 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually buddy you answered it yourself. The other warming periods were due to well known orbital wobbles whereas, the heating we are getting today is during a period where the orbital wobbles should actually be making us colder. All that talk about heading for an ice age in the 70's was not complete crap. We were heading towards one. It is just that the CO2 turned that around.

Citations? From empirical studies, of course..ones that conclusively demonstrate that human emissions have overwhelmed solar cycler and orbital wobbles.

477 Erik The Red  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:03:54pm

re: #473 HoosierHoops

Hey 2H. Enjoy your boys return and tell him thank you.
How is the beer drinking and fishing going?

478 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:03:58pm

re: #439 avanti

Yet another upding for honesty. I was not addressing the content of Obaba speeches, but he has a pastors cadence that I like. I did not always agree with Reagan's politics, but I liked to hear him talk too.

That's funny. I wasn't paying much attention to politics back then and Reagan's speech annoyed me.

As far as cadence...follow my hand...you are getting sleepy...deep...deeper...deeper. When I tap your shoulder you will awake and vote for a neophyte communist from Chicago.

479 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:04:12pm

re: #460 albusteve

do you write your congressmen about you energy concerns?...what did they say?

Nope, I pass them on at the local Obama meet and greets and the WH web site. I'd love to see Obama tick off the far left by pushing nuclear.

480 cubbydave44  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:04:19pm

I think that crazy lady evolved from birds...
Did you see the beak on her...

I know, I know... That was very mean spirited and blah blah blah. I can't help it though. I really can't believe there are people like that out there.

481 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:04:36pm

re: #475 ArmyWife

You have an incredible imagination. I'd love to go out and have a glass or 12 of wine with you and listen to you come up with this stuff. Assuming you didn't kill me after glass 6 when I started spouting off with my opinions on they way the world should be, that is.

wait til DU gets a load of that post

482 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:05:27pm

re: #463 Walter L. Newton

You may want to look into some material from Dr. Ian Plimer before you jump off the cliff.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Plimer is to AGW what Behe is to Evolution. I have looked at his garbage quite extensively.

I am not jumping off of any cliff.

I respectfully wish to remind the true believers out there that I am a professional physicist. Everything I have said is backed up by reams of evidence and analysis that I have posted here again and again. Much like Dawkins repeating again and again that DNA counts as evidence or that the transitional fossils really do exist, I keep having whatever evidence I post rejected by the same crowd of true believers out of hand.

Rather than looking at wikis for the fringe elements that say what you want to hear, why not look at what the actual scientific community is saying and has been saying quite loudly for some time?

483 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:05:38pm

re: #475 ArmyWife

You have an incredible imagination. I'd love to go out and have a glass or 12 of wine with you and listen to you come up with this stuff. Assuming you didn't kill me after glass 6 when I started spouting off with my opinions on they way the world should be, that is.

I was blinded by Science!
/you can explain anything away by referring to some point in the 1980's.

484 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:06:09pm

re: #478 kansas

That's funny. I wasn't paying much attention to politics back then and Reagan's speech annoyed me.

As far as cadence...follow my hand...you are getting sleepy...deep...deeper...deeper. When I tap your shoulder you will awake and vote for a neophyte communist from Chicago.

" I must vote for the leftie, I must vote for..."

485 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:06:33pm

re: #457 Ian MacGregor

Mrs. Wright's faith wouldn't be an issue except that it causes her to work to change science education in public schools for all children, not just her own and those of her coreligionists.

486 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:06:51pm

re: #477 Erik The Red

Hey 2H. Enjoy your boys return and tell him thank you.
How is the beer drinking and fishing going?

As you can tell...I'm having a great time..Did the family arrive? Everything good?

487 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:07:00pm

re: #483 HoosierHoops

I'll jot that little bit of advice down.

488 scion9  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:07:17pm

re: #482 LudwigVanQuixote

I was a skeptic, but am now agnostic on the issue. My scientific background is very basic. Is there one source/book above others that you would recommend to laymen on the subject?

489 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:07:26pm

re: #482 LudwigVanQuixote

Plimer is to AGW what Behe is to Evolution. I have looked at his garbage quite extensively.

I am not jumping off of any cliff.

I respectfully wish to remind the true believers out there that I am a professional physicist. Everything I have said is backed up by reams of evidence and analysis that I have posted here again and again. Much like Dawkins repeating again and again that DNA counts as evidence or that the transitional fossils really do exist, I keep having whatever evidence I post rejected by the same crowd of true believers out of hand.

Rather than looking at wikis for the fringe elements that say what you want to hear, why not look at what the actual scientific community is saying and has been saying quite loudly for some time?

That's strange, considering that one of Plimer's other books is a debunking of creationism.

490 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:07:56pm

re: #482 LudwigVanQuixote

Plimer is to AGW what Behe is to Evolution. I have looked at his garbage quite extensively.

I am not jumping off of any cliff.

I respectfully wish to remind the true believers out there that I am a professional physicist. Everything I have said is backed up by reams of evidence and analysis that I have posted here again and again. Much like Dawkins repeating again and again that DNA counts as evidence or that the transitional fossils really do exist, I keep having whatever evidence I post rejected by the same crowd of true believers out of hand.

Rather than looking at wikis for the fringe elements that say what you want to hear, why not look at what the actual scientific community is saying and has been saying quite loudly for some time?

Dr. Plimer is far from a fringe element. He is only fringe to you because he has some of the most secure and well respected opinions in the global warming "business."

491 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:08:03pm

re: #464 Cato the Elder

Facts will have no impact because the human ability to take appropriate measures in the face of vague but real future threats asymptotically approaches zero the further away the threat and the more exertion required to counter it.

Every sane human knew that World War Two was coming by 1933 at the latest. World War Two came anyway.

Human ability to shape human outcomes is negligible. Human ability to shape the planetary ecosystem (aside from self-extermination of humans) is nil.

We will certainly see if your well justified pessimism bears out. If it does, we'll certainly pay for it, much like WWII.

492 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:08:44pm

re: #483 HoosierHoops

I was blinded by Science!
/you can explain anything away by referring to some point in the 1980's.

Milli Vanilli.
*crosses arms and taps foot*

You have 2 minutes.

493 BlackFedora  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:08:59pm

*Thinks about listening*

No! Can't do it. I can't stand Dawkins and listening to creationists is just too damn painful I could cry.

494 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:09:11pm

re: #415 Cato the Elder

This may well be true.

What I doubt is that anything we do short of voluntary extinction or ending civilization as we know it or enforced ant-like eco-sociofascism will alter the outcome.

Meanwhile, I shall live as a free man. And park my "clunker" in the hybrids-only spaces at Whole Foods as often as I can.

Can't we just move to a technological fix? We can have our electricity and our accustomed temperatures, both. All we need to do is build wind, solar, and nuclear, install CF or LED lighting in place of incandescent, insulate our buildings better, incorporate more passive solar features into the design of new ones, and so on and so forth. The cost of all this will be significant but not backbreaking, and it's not a deadweight cost because all these things make for savings over the long haul.

The government can play a modest role in nudging these changes along. Light bulbs can be packaged with a note showing the life-cycle cost per 1000 lumen-hours. Homes can be sold with a note in the mortgage showing the kwh that may be expected to be needed to heat and cool it over 30 years, and the price of that many kwh at current rates and at a variety of reasonably likely future rates.

Rights of way for power lines carrying "green" electricity can be given waivers for environmental impact studies---whatever the impact, it has to net out positive so there's no point in fussing over the effect on sage grouse habitat or whatever. Same for nuclear power. The French have proven that there's a safe design. Enough already with fretting over vanishingly thin chances of another Chernobyl. Get on with it and build nuclear plants.

Solar energy isn't quite ready for prime time. More R&D is in order. Given the past spectacular success of directed R&D, it's a good bet that we'll cross the threshold to economical solar power within a couple of decades. Then we can pave over a quarter of Arizona with such installations and have power to burn.

Cap and trade is an invitation to fraud. Though an outright tax on carbon is a bad idea, it's less bad than C&T.

495 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:09:35pm

re: #492 SasquatchOnSteroids

DAVID HASSELHOFF!

496 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:09:36pm

re: #482 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, this is your fringe element scientist...

Dr. Pilmer

Member, Advisory Council for the New South Wales Minister for Primary Industries
Fellow of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering
Eureka Prize (2002), for A Short History of Planet Earth
Eureka Prize (1995), for promotion of science
The Michael Daley Prize for the Promotion of Science (now a Eureka Prize), (1994), for communication of science
Fellow of the Australasian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy
Fellow of the Australian Institute of Geoscientists
Honorary Fellow of the Geological Society, London
Clarke Medal, 2004
Centenary Medal, 2003
Rio Tinto Award for Mining Excellence, 2005
Sir Willis Connelly Medal, Australasian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, 2006
Leopold von Buch Plakette of the German Geological Society, 1994

I suppose he picked up all these positions in a cereal box prize.

497 tradewind  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:10:00pm

re: #465 Charles
Not gonna happen: it takes a redhead. Besides, this is so much neater.
Image: shirley-manson-t1000-4.jpg

498 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:10:09pm

re: #488 scion9

I was a skeptic, but am now agnostic on the issue. My scientific background is very basic. Is there one source/book above others that you would recommend to laymen on the subject?

Here's a basic kick start for you from the EPA, NOAA, has more.

EPA..

499 Erik The Red  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:10:14pm

re: #486 HoosierHoops

As you can tell...I'm having a great time..Did the family arrive? Everything good?

Family here and safe. All of us are very happy. Now it is time to get down to the hard work. Will be enjoying the next two weeks with them and then I will start looking for an income.:)))

500 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:10:40pm

re: #435 Salamantis

But whether or not human emissions contributes a significant percentage to global warming, or whether the lion's share of global warming is due to solar cycle or terrestrial orbit permutations beyond human control, is the question that has NEVER been empirically answered, and always seems to be avoided.

As far as solar goes:

Total Solar Irradiance (TSI): Also known as total incoming solar radiation (insolation). The amount of solar radiation reaching the Earth can change as solar activity changes. This is a known factor influencing global temperatures and thus climate. Sometimes people will reference sunspots, which correlate fairly well with TSI (more sunspots generally means more incoming solar radiation), but solar irradiance is the specific factor impacting the Earth's climate.

Since 1978 we've had satellites measuring TSI directly, and prior to that scientists use "proxies". A proxy variable is something that is probably not in itself of any great interest, but from which a variable of interest can be obtained. For example, climate scientists use tree rings and ice core layers as proxies to determine past global temperatures. In the case of TSI, one such proxy is beryllium-10 concentrations.

So the question again arises - could changes in TSI be responsible for the recent global warming? Since we've had satellites measuring TSI directly since 1978, and this is the period of the greatest warming in recent history (0.5 degrees Celsius over the past 30 years), all we have to do is look at the satellite data to determine if solar irradiance has similarly increased over that period.

Again, the answer is no. On average, TSI has remained essentially unchanged since 1978. According to the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research, it hasn't increased (on average) in about 70 years.

[Link: www.ecohuddle.com...]

501 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:10:53pm

re: #482 LudwigVanQuixote

The only reason you jump on Dr. Pilmer is because he has such solid credentials, yet he is not the grandstander like most of the other global warming frauds.

502 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:10:54pm

re: #484 avanti

" I must vote for the leftie, I must vote for..."


Youtube Video
503 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:11:48pm

For something complete OT and good for a laugh.

Man on lawnmower during beer run charged with DUI

With a revoked license because of a previous drunken-driving conviction, Dennis Cretton shouldn't drive. But authorities said that didn't stop the 49-year-old man from drunkenly driving up to a gas station for more beer - on his yellow riding lawnmower.
504 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:11:56pm

re: #487 ArmyWife

I'll jot that little bit of advice down.

LOL
Hope you are well...I'm a tad silly tonight...
/TMZ will end up with video before nights end...
*wink*

505 lincolntf  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:12:20pm

re: #496 Walter L. Newton

Rio Tinto Award for Mining Excellence, 2005

I don't know what it is, but I want one.

506 Erik The Red  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:12:35pm

Short stay tonight Lizards. Have a great evening, God Bless and stay Scaly.

507 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:12:45pm

re: #496 Walter L. Newton

Yes, this is your fringe element scientist...

Dr. Pilmer

Member, Advisory Council for the New South Wales Minister for Primary Industries
Fellow of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering
Eureka Prize (2002), for A Short History of Planet Earth
Eureka Prize (1995), for promotion of science
The Michael Daley Prize for the Promotion of Science (now a Eureka Prize), (1994), for communication of science
Fellow of the Australasian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy
Fellow of the Australian Institute of Geoscientists
Honorary Fellow of the Geological Society, London
Clarke Medal, 2004
Centenary Medal, 2003
Rio Tinto Award for Mining Excellence, 2005
Sir Willis Connelly Medal, Australasian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, 2006
Leopold von Buch Plakette of the German Geological Society, 1994

I suppose he picked up all these positions in a cereal box prize.

Well, you know, Walter, he's into hard sciences like mining and engineering. Everybody knows those guys are in the pockets of the same Evil Industries that gave us...umm...modern civilization. Can't have someone like that running around with an independent opinion. And anyway it's ipso facto not independent.

risus sardonicus

508 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:13:23pm

re: #505 lincolntf

Rio Tinto Award for Mining Excellence, 2005

I don't know what it is, but I want one.

I can dig it.

509 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:13:31pm

re: #504 HoosierHoops

we are all entitled to some silliness now and again! Just keep your pants on for this video, please? Seriously, that last one...well, you know. No need to open old wounds.

510 Irenicum  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:13:37pm

re: #382 Walter L. Newton

Against her crazy creationism, yes. Against theism, nope.

511 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:13:44pm

re: #461 NelsFree

I must go. Time for my Three Affectations:
Cato the Elder: a fist bump for your clunker parking
LudwigVanQ: Please provide a timeline for the End of the Earth due to Man-made Global Warming. I'll wait.
Sharmuta: Global CO2 comprises 0.3% of Earth's atmosphere. Man-made CO2 is 5% of that. Do the Math after I hug you. {Sharmuta}

G'nite all.

Man-made CO2 is NOT 5% of today's atmospheric CO2. It's more like 30%. That is, if you could magically cut world CO2 levels by 30% overnight, you'd be back to where we were 3, or 10, or 30 centuries ago.

When you write "do the math", you're implicitly guaranteeing that you've done your part of it. You haven't.

512 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:14:11pm

re: #489 Salamantis

That's strange, considering that one of Plimer's other books is a debunking of creationism.

Ok so he isn't wrong about everything.

513 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:14:41pm

re: #490 Walter L. Newton

Dr. Plimer is far from a fringe element. He is only fringe to you because he has some of the most secure and well respected opinions in the global warming "business."

Respected by you. Not by people in the business.

514 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:15:09pm

re: #503 jcm

For something complete OT and good for a laugh.

Man on lawnmower during beer run charged with DUI

John Deere,

Please bail me out.

Thanks. DUI in Ill.

515 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:15:35pm

re: #492 SasquatchOnSteroids

Milli Vanilli.
*crosses arms and taps foot*

You have 2 minutes.

Who here has never drove with the windows down on a summer day singing a Billy Idol song...or Rod Steward?
or the Eagles?

516 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:15:42pm

Still interested in knowing how many AGW "true believers" (your phraseology, not mine) are pro-nuclear.

517 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:16:16pm

re: #513 LudwigVanQuixote

Respected by you. Not by people in the business.

Yes, bad construction on my part, but you got my point.

518 mich-again  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:16:38pm

re: #465 Charles

I have to admit, I kept expecting her neck to crack open like a Pez dispenser, and a gross, slime-covered appendage to shoot out and impale Dawkins through the forehead and drain his life essence without ever stopping that voice from droning on about Haeckel's drawings and censorship and eugenicism and Hitler...

I was waiting for her to have a two weeks moment.

519 cronus  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:17:17pm

re: #457 Ian MacGregor

Wendy Wright has no intention of admitting to herself or anyone else that her faith is totally her own and has no connection to material reality. If faith did everything for Mrs. Wright that you suggest it should why would she even need to argue with Dawkins? She wants confirmation for her specific (fundamentalist) religious tenets from the material world. And when scientific reality doesn't supply her the answers she wants she dismisses it.

Other than this and the fact that she believes science education should stick to the wisdom of the middle bronze age, I'm sure she really is a lovely woman.

520 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:17:36pm

re: #482 LudwigVanQuixote
There are still serious scientists out there who do not agree. We should continue to have the debate. And I'd really like to know what sources you recommend. I'm reading with an open mind.

522 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:18:11pm

re: #509 ArmyWife

we are all entitled to some silliness now and again! Just keep your pants on for this video, please? Seriously, that last one...well, you know. No need to open old wounds.

Do these jeans make my Butt look big?
*wink*

523 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:19:01pm

re: #522 HoosierHoops

Do these jeans make my Butt look big?
*wink*

*Hmmm?* Jeans? Butt?

524 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:19:19pm

re: #516 OldLineTexan

Still interested in knowing how many AGW "true believers" (your phraseology, not mine) are pro-nuclear.

None, because they want a brand-new, shiny, untainted, post-industrial world approved by Scare Crow the native shaman, and they want it yesterday.

Same reason reducing coal emissions by 30% or more per unit of energy output is unacceptable. No, we can't build any "cleaner coal" power plants, because coal is icky and not "sustainable" and reminds us of Victorian England.

The best, as always, enemy of the good.

525 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:19:32pm

re: #513 LudwigVanQuixote

Respected by you. Not by people in the business.

Do they doubt his conclusions or look down on his credentials?

526 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:20:28pm

re: #511 lostlakehiker

Man-made CO2 is NOT 5% of today's atmospheric CO2. It's more like 30%. That is, if you could magically cut world CO2 levels by 30% overnight, you'd be back to where we were 3, or 10, or 30 centuries ago.

When you write "do the math", you're implicitly guaranteeing that you've done your part of it. You haven't.

Or .0168 according to this. [Link: www.texaspolicy.com...]

527 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:20:32pm

re: #525 VioletTiger

Do they doubt his conclusions or look down on his credentials?

See my #507.

528 jaunte  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:20:45pm

Here's a handy scale to locate your position on the agw topic:

In the realm of climate science, as in most topics, there exists a range of ideas as to what is going on, and what it means for the future. At the risk of generalizing, the gamut looks something like this:

Ultra-alarmists think that human greenhouse-gas-producing activities will vastly change the face of the planet and make the earth inhospitable for humans; they therefore demand large and immediate action to curtail greenhouse gas emissions.

Alarmists understand that human activities are changing the earth’s climate and think that the potential changes are sufficient to warrant some pre-emptive action to try to mitigate them.

Skeptics think that humans activities are changing the earth’s climate but, by and large, they think that the changes are not likely to be terribly disruptive (and even could be, in net, positive) and that drastic action to curtail greenhouse gas emissions is unnecessary, difficult, and ineffective.

Ultra-skeptics think that human greenhouse gas-producing activities are impacting the earth’s climate in no way whatsoever.

Most of my energy tends to be directed at countering alarmist claims about impending climate catastrophe, but the scientist in me gets just as bent out of shape about some of the contentions made by the ultra-skeptics, which are simply unsupported by virtually any scientific evidence. Primary among these claims is that human activities are not responsible for the observed build-up of atmospheric carbon dioxide. This is just plain wrong.[Link: masterresource.org...]

529 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:21:25pm

Senate reaches CFC deal, vote in the AM.

Senate..

530 lincolntf  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:21:51pm

re: #516 OldLineTexan

The many true-believers I know generally have a knee-jerk negative reaction to nuclear. I can usually talk them down from their "Silkwood" flights of hysteria and get them to acknowledge the great economic/environmental boon a revamped nuclear industry would be for our country.
Even with the ones who eventually agree with me, I can guarantee that if someone wanted to build one anywhere near them, they'd fold like cheap tents and oppose it. Nuclear isn't a realistic option until the decades of fear-mongering and reflexive environmental obstructionism have been reversed.

531 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:22:25pm

re: #523 FurryOldGuyJeans

*Hmmm?* Jeans? Butt?

dang...You can never quote me...That was a slip..off the record...
I promise never to use the word butt again in any posts for at least 6 months or 6000 posts..What ever comes first...

532 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:22:53pm

re: #488 scion9

I was a skeptic, but am now agnostic on the issue. My scientific background is very basic. Is there one source/book above others that you would recommend to laymen on the subject?

Here are some great links...

For basics, this page from NOAA is quite good for raw data.
[Link: www.ncdc.noaa.gov...]

This is the homepage of the Princeton Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Lab. If you poke around, you will find out everything you could possibly want to know about how that data is modeled to make prediction.
[Link: www.gfdl.noaa.gov...]

This is from Columbia University, IRI/LDEO Climate Data Library
[Link: ingrid.ldeo.columbia.edu...]

533 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:23:05pm

re: #529 avanti

Senate reaches CFC deal, vote in the AM.

Senate..

Thank god, I thought they reached a deal on Chlorofluorocarbons.

534 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:23:15pm

re: #524 Cato the Elder

None, because they want a brand-new, shiny, untainted, post-industrial world approved by Scare Crow the native shaman, and they want it yesterday.

Same reason reducing coal emissions by 30% or more per unit of energy output is unacceptable. No, we can't build any "cleaner coal" power plants, because coal is icky and not "sustainable" and reminds us of Victorian England.

The best, as always, enemy of the good.

I just find it interesting that my support is not wanted unless I'm baptised into the faith.

And BOTH of my degrees and my career are in "hard" sciences, and I have done modeling/simulation/test, etc. etc. etc. Which means I do NOT take answers of "the science is settled" very easily.

535 cronus  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:23:18pm

re: #529 avanti

Senate reaches CFC deal, vote in the AM.

Senate..

the article title describes the $2 billion as a "refill" as if it hasn't already been spent yet...

536 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:23:46pm

re: #520 VioletTiger

There are still serious scientists out there who do not agree. We should continue to have the debate. And I'd really like to know what sources you recommend. I'm reading with an open mind.

I just posted some very good ones

in my 532

537 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:24:04pm

Gonna be some pretty sweet deals on repos in about 12 months.

538 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:24:11pm

re: #530 lincolntf

Nuclear isn't a realistic option until the decades of fear-mongering and reflexive environmental obstructionism have been reversed.

40 years of wandering in the non-nuclear wilderness, waiting for the green generation to die out. Oh joy, oh joy.

539 scion9  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:24:21pm

re: #530 lincolntf

I used to go camping within spitting distant of this throughout my youth. Yes in my backyard.

540 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:25:02pm

re: #539 scion9

I used to go camping within spitting distant of this throughout my youth. Yes in my backyard.

Cool, camping by the gentle green glow!

///

541 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:25:12pm

re: #528 jaunte

Here's a handy scale to locate your position on the agw topic:

Mine came up "Ron Paul"; did I do something wrong?

/

542 tradewind  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:25:26pm

re: #509 ArmyWife

Bris gone bad?

543 lincolntf  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:25:40pm

re: #539 scion9

There's one right near Hampton Beach. We used to drive past it on the way to the beach every morning. Made a cool background for snapshots.

544 cronus  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:25:45pm

re: #537 kansas

Gonna be some pretty sweet deals on repos in about 12 months.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm going to get a killer deal on a Camry.

545 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:25:52pm

Why Obama's health care bill will probably pass...
Glenn Beck: Why Does AARP Support Obama Health Care

Liveleak Video


Seriously watch this video and assess who's winning the debate. Beck brings up an edited (and probably out of context) statement from somebody's brother, the already debunked thing about euthanizing seniors, etc. Obama is blessed with stupid critics.

546 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:26:06pm

re: #538 FurryOldGuyJeans

40 years of wandering in the non-nuclear wilderness, waiting for the green generation to die out. Oh joy, oh joy.

Just another reason to thank Jane Fonda for all her contributions.

/ 100,000

547 scion9  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:26:14pm

re: #532 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks. Bookmarked for later digestion.

548 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:26:39pm

re: #540 jcm

Cool, camping by the gentle green glow!

///

catching three-eyed fish with mutant cane poles and giant mosquitoes as bait/harpoons ...

/

549 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:27:08pm

re: #500 Sharmuta

[Link: www.ecohuddle.com...]

An interesting link that will require further study on my part.

Thank you for providing it (or something like it) at my request.

The question of lag times since the last, relatively recent, increase in solar irradiance, and how long absorbed radiant heat takes to translate from the oceans to the atmosphere, is one I would like to see addressed.

550 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:27:23pm

re: #537 kansas

Gonna be some pretty sweet deals on repos in about 12 months.

I'm not sure what that means. This program in no way help "needy" people out. I couldn't afford a new car right now, and this program in no way helps me get one.

And, because of all the cars that are being destroyed, my selection of possible use cars that I might be able to afford will not be available, making the over all price of used cars to increase.

Obama has done nothing to help out the lower class of this country. Of course, that was expected, by everyone except the lower class. They are in for more surprises.

551 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:27:35pm

re: #531 HoosierHoops

dang...You can never quote me...That was a slip..off the record...
I promise never to use the word butt again in any posts for at least 6 months or 6000 posts..What ever comes first...

You sir mentioned jeans. That was your first mistake.

Then you connected jeans with butts, second mistake.

Never talk butts and jeans around a man that has a fetish for the latter. ;)

552 mich-again  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:27:42pm

re: #511 lostlakehiker

Man-made CO2 is NOT 5% of today's atmospheric CO2. It's more like 30%.

We would all be dead.

553 HelloDare  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:27:53pm

re: #500 Sharmuta

Albedo is just as important. There's plenty of info on the web about satellite measurement of albedo but I can't make heads or tails of it.

554 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:28:07pm

re: #533 kansas

Thank god, I thought they reached a deal on Chlorofluorocarbons.

We can pump all our CFC emissions into the Capitol Building?

555 Lynn B.  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:28:13pm
WRIGHT: ... that's interesting you should bring up the textbooks on biology, we still have textbooks today ...

DAWKINS: Yeah, I know, [..?..] you're going to talk about Haeckel's embryos...

WRIGHT: No no, in fact, what I was going to talk about is that what they claim to be the evolution of a fetus in the womb ...

DAWKINS: yes ...

WRIGHT: ... based on hand drawings which have proven to be false and yet they continue to be published in scientific textbooks...

No, no, I wasn't going to talk about Haeckel's embryos ... in fact, what I was going to talk about was Haeckel's embryos! Except that I never heard of Haeckel and am only repeating talking points I've learned by rote so your reference to Haeckel went right by me...

What? Is there something funny about that?

556 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:28:30pm

re: #545 Killgore Trout

Why Obama's health care bill will probably pass...
Glenn Beck: Why Does AARP Support Obama Health Care


[Video]
Seriously watch this video and assess who's winning the debate. Beck brings up an edited (and probably out of context) statement from somebody's brother, the already debunked thing about euthanizing seniors, etc. Obama is blessed with stupid critics.

No offense but I have a choice. Slam my head in a door or watch a Glen Beck video. I can't decide.

557 tradewind  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:28:33pm

re: #537 kansas

You gotta love how the administration of fiscal rescue is leading the country out of the valley of the clunker and into the shadow of the seventy-two-month car note.

558 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:28:50pm

re: #546 jcm

Just another reason to thank Jane Fonda for all her contributions.

/ 100,000

She has made some other contributions I am quite sure a number of Vietnam Vets would love to return the favors for.

559 scion9  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:28:51pm

re: #552 mich-again

He's saying 30% of CO2 in the atmosphere is man-made; not that the atmosphere is 30% CO2.

560 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:29:35pm

re: #557 tradewind

You gotta love how the administration of fiscal rescue is leading the country out of the valley of the clunker and into the shadow of the seventy-two-month car note.

And tightening the availability of good used cars.

561 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:29:45pm

re: #534 OldLineTexan

I just find it interesting that my support is not wanted unless I'm baptised into the faith.

And BOTH of my degrees and my career are in "hard" sciences, and I have done modeling/simulation/test, etc. etc. etc. Which means I do NOT take answers of "the science is settled" very easily.


I know exactly what you mean, as I am in the hard sciences as well and at one point managed a group of modelers. BS can and does creep in.
Sometimes the line between thesis and feces is pretty thin.

562 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:30:00pm

re: #559 scion9

He's saying 30% of CO2 in the atmosphere is man-made; not that the atmosphere is 30% CO2.

and unicorn farts?

/

563 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:30:38pm

re: #560 Walter L. Newton

And tightening the availability of good used cars.

If you aren't in debt to the government in some way or fashion you are not a good citizen.

564 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:30:53pm

re: #561 VioletTiger

I know exactly what you mean, as I am in the hard sciences as well and at one point managed a group of modelers. BS can and does creep in.
Sometimes the line between thesis and feces is pretty thin.

hey, i told you i was sorry!

/

565 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:31:26pm

re: #562 OldLineTexan

Didn't you hear? The senate just passed CFU. You must trade in your farting unicorn for a less environmentally intrusive pegasus.

566 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:31:47pm

re: #551 FurryOldGuyJeans

You sir mentioned jeans. That was your first mistake.

Then you connected jeans with butts, second mistake.

Never talk butts and jeans around a man that has a fetish for the latter. ;)

Note to self: Stick with the new Nike team color football shoes...
Do not talk about jeans!
LOL

567 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:32:10pm

re: #563 FurryOldGuyJeans

If you aren't in debt to the government in some way or fashion you are not a good citizen.

there's a famous roman quote about making enough laws so that the government has something on everyone, but i can't remember it well enough to find it

568 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:32:59pm

re: #567 OldLineTexan

there's a famous roman quote about making enough laws so that the government has something on everyone, but i can't remember it well enough to find it

you. said.

JEANS! ;)

569 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:32:59pm

re: #565 ArmyWife

Didn't you hear? The senate just passed CFU. You must trade in your farting unicorn for a less environmentally intrusive pegasus.

flying horses cause methane to be released into the upper atmosphere, which makes teh baby space jeebus cry

570 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:33:34pm

re: #550 Walter L. Newton

I'm not sure what that means. This program in no way help "needy" people out. I couldn't afford a new car right now, and this program in no way helps me get one.

And, because of all the cars that are being destroyed, my selection of possible use cars that I might be able to afford will not be available, making the over all price of used cars to increase.

Obama has done nothing to help out the lower class of this country. Of course, that was expected, by everyone except the lower class. They are in for more surprises.

Well, I'm thinking if you are driving a clunker there is probably a reason, the reason being you can't afford a new car. I'll bet there are many who are going over their ability to repay with this 4500 rebate, and in about 12 months we'll see some repos.

And destroying these cars is stupid. One of my cars is on the clunker list, a 2000 Isuzu Rodeo. Looks new, is paid for, and I could trade it because it gets lousy mileage, but I can buy a lot of gas, even at 4 bucks as opposed to borrowing 15 grand or more and paying interest on it since I don't have 15 G's laying around to pay for one cash.

571 SteveC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:33:42pm

Oh, my.

Just from the stills, I can see that crazy look on Ms. Wright's face. Full blown, damn the torpedoes full speed ahead crazy.

But Dawkins has a nice ear!

572 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:34:20pm

re: #556 kansas

No offense but I have a choice. Slam my head in a door or watch a Glen Beck video. I can't decide.

Take the door. I'm really bummed after watching the clip.

573 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:35:01pm

re: #570 kansas

Thou shalt recycle!
jeez...didn't you get the memo?
/

574 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:35:56pm

re: #570 kansas

Well, I'm thinking if you are driving a clunker there is probably a reason, the reason being you can't afford a new car. I'll bet there are many who are going over their ability to repay with this 4500 rebate, and in about 12 months we'll see some repos.

And destroying these cars is stupid. One of my cars is on the clunker list, a 2000 Isuzu Rodeo. Looks new, is paid for, and I could trade it because it gets lousy mileage, but I can buy a lot of gas, even at 4 bucks as opposed to borrowing 15 grand or more and paying interest on it since I don't have 15 G's laying around to pay for one cash.

My point being, you are not going to get a loan if you can't afford a new car. And according to the reports I am hearing from dealers and car sales people, the folks coming in are people who can certainly afford the loan, not poor people.

575 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:36:12pm

re: #573 HoosierHoops

Thou shalt recycle!
jeez...didn't you get the memo?
/

Youtube Video
576 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:36:15pm

re: #573 HoosierHoops

Thou shalt recycle!
jeez...didn't you get the memo?
/

reduce
reuse
recycle

kansas has reduced (making a new car pollutes!), reused (long may you run). recycle will come in due time

577 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:36:48pm

re: #572 Killgore Trout

Take the door. I'm really bummed after watching the clip.


Thanks for doing the heavy lifting. I'm going for the door.

578 Killian Bundy  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:37:40pm

German football song irks Muslims

An anthem sung by fans of the German football club FC Schalke 04 has drawn protests from Muslims because of its reference to the Prophet Muhammad.

The Gelsenkirchen club, which plays in Germany's top league, the Bundesliga, has asked an Islam expert to consider whether the song might be insulting.

The third verse contains the words: "Muhammad was a prophet who understood nothing about football".

"But of all the lovely colours he chose [Schalke's] blue and white," it goes.

The club has received hundreds of e-mails from angry Muslims recently, since Turkish media carried reports about the song.

Police in Gelsenkirchen, in the industrial Ruhr region of western Germany, say they are taking the Muslim complaints very seriously.

The head of Germany's Central Council of Muslims, Aiman Mazyek, said his council would not call for a ban on the anthem, but would like "an explanation of its background".

Oh sure, it's easy enough for Muslims to burn Christians alive in the streets of Pakistan for even the most minor perceived slight against Islam, but trying to intimidate hardcore German Bundesliga fans?

/well, good luck with that

579 SteveC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:38:09pm

re: #573 HoosierHoops

Thou shalt recycle!
jeez...didn't you get the memo?
/

It was in the glove compartment of my freshly compacted '60 Chevy!

/Don't worry, Bob Seger was not in the trunk!

580 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:38:15pm

re: #574 Walter L. Newton

My point being, you are not going to get a loan if you can't afford a new car. And according to the reports I am hearing from dealers and car sales people, the folks coming in are people who can certainly afford the loan, not poor people.

Not sure why they were driving clunkers then, but if that is the case, there goes my repo theory.

581 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:38:23pm

re: #574 Walter L. Newton

My point being, you are not going to get a loan if you can't afford a new car. And according to the reports I am hearing from dealers and car sales people, the folks coming in are people who can certainly afford the loan, not poor people.

No one ever said the "clunkers" program would do anything for the economically disadvantaged.

At least they didn't promise that. The ecological benefit is just as imaginary, but people are buying it. Of course they are. It's "free" money.

582 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:38:30pm

re: #575 jcm

[Video]

Gak! I can't pull video through my VPN client...I'm on vacation...What is the video of?

583 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:38:42pm

Good evening.

The 10 year treasury rate inched up to 3.744% today, as compared to 2.6% in March.


Get ready for a pull back.

Market Insider: Jobless Data, Retail Sales to Challenge Stocks


Weekly jobless claims and retailers' monthly sales reports combine to challenge stocks Thursday and will likely paint a picture of a consumer still very much under pressure.

Investors will also be watching for follow through from Cisco's [CSCO 22.17 -0.27 (-1.2%) ] after-the-bell earnings, which beat analysts' expectations both on the bottom line and top line. Cisco shares were slightly weaker after it reported it earned $0.31 per share on revenues of $8.54 billion. Cisco also forecast a double digit decline in current quarter revenues but suggested it sees signs of stabilization.

The dollar is also a major focus, as the Bank of England and European Central Bank hold rate meetings ahead of the New York open.

Wednesday's action illustrated once more that the stock market is resilient in the face of disappointing news and growing expectations it will soon succumb to a significant sell off.

584 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:38:47pm

re: #559 scion9

He's saying 30% of CO2 in the atmosphere is man-made; not that the atmosphere is 30% CO2.

And atmospheric CO2 currently stands at 387 parts per MILLION. In other words, for every molecule of CO2 in the atmosphere, there are 2584 molecules of other gases. By comparison, oxygen comprises 21% of the atmosphere or about 1 in 5 (far and away the most common atmospheric gas is nitrogen, at 78%, and all; the other atmospheric gases combined comprise only a bit more than 1%, most of that being argon). Not included in this composition is the 1% of the atmosphere that is dissolved water vapor.

I find it amazing that plant life is so efficient at gathering the relatively sparse atmospheric CO2 that it does not suffocate and die.

585 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:38:52pm

re: #578 Killian Bundy

German football song irks Muslims

Oh sure, it's easy enough for Muslims to burn Christians alive in the streets of Pakistan for even the most minor perceived slight against Islam, but trying to intimidate hardcore German Bundesliga fans?

/well, good luck with that

Paging Rage Boy.

586 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:39:11pm

Now as to Plimer,
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

He is not well loved by the serious scientific community. Just a quick look at the wiki for his book Heaven and Earth, shows the following responses from his fellow Aussies. I can find more quotes if you wish.

The book has been widely criticized by scientists and academics.[17] Barry Brook of Adelaide University's Research Institute for Climate Change and Sustainability, who is at the same university as Plimer and has often debated climate change issues with him, described the book as a case study "in how not to be objective" and accused Plimer of using "selective evidence". Brook commented that Plimer's "stated view of climate science is that a vast number of extremely well respected scientists and a whole range of specialist disciplines have fallen prey to delusional self-interest and become nothing more than unthinking ideologues. Plausible to conspiracy theorists, perhaps, but hardly a sane world view, and insulting to all those genuinely committed to real science."

[18] He charged that Plimer's assertions about man’s role in climate change were "naive, reflected a poor understanding of climate science, and relied on recycled and distorted arguments that had been repeatedly refuted."

[19] Brook also suggested that many of the scientific authors cited by Plimer actually support the consensus view and that their work is misrepresented in Plimer's book. [19] Susannah Eliott, the chief executive of the Australian Science Media Centre, encouraged colleagues to read the book and comment on it, but took the view that "there isn't anything new in there, they are all old arguments".
[20]
Many reviewers highlighted factual and sourcing problems in Heaven and Earth. Colin Woodroffe, a coastal geomorphologist at the University of Wollongong, and a lead chapter author for the IPCC AR4, wrote that the book has many errors and will be "remembered for the confrontation it provokes rather than the science it stimulates." Woodroffe noted Plimer's "unbalanced approach to the topic," and concluded that the book was not written as a contribution to any scientific debate, and was evidently not aimed at a scientific audience.

[21] Charlie Veron, former chief scientist at the Australian Institute of Marine Science, said every original statement Plimer makes in the book on coral and coral reefs is incorrect, and that Plimer "serve[s] up diagrams from no acknowledged source, diagrams known to be obsolete and diagrams that combine bits of science with bits of fiction."[9]

David Karoly, a meteorologist at Melbourne University and a lead author for the IPCC, accused Plimer of misusing data in the book and commented that "it doesn't support the answers with sources."[9] Karoly reviewed the book and concluded: "Given the errors, the non-science, and the nonsense in this book, it should be classified as science fiction in any library that wastes its funds buying it. The book can then be placed on the shelves alongside Michael Crichton's State of Fear, another science fiction book about climate change with many footnotes. The only difference is that there are fewer scientific errors in State of Fear."[22]

Ian G. Enting, a mathematical physicist at MASCOS, University of Melbourne and author of Twisted, The Distorted Mathematics of Greenhouse Denial, similarly criticised what he described as numerous misrepresentations of the sources cited in the book and charged that Plimer "fails to establish his claim that the human influence on climate can be ignored, relative to natural variation."[23] Enting compiled a list of over 100 errors in the book.

Michael Ashley, an astronomer at the University of New South Wales, criticised the book at length ...in which he characterised the book as "largely a collection of contrarian ideas and conspiracy theories that are rife in the blogosphere. The writing is rambling and repetitive; the arguments flawed ...

587 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:39:18pm

re: #582 HoosierHoops

Gak! I can't pull video through my VPN client...I'm on vacation...What is the video of?

Penn & Teller Bullshit episode on recycling.

588 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:40:11pm

Brazil forest group: Go green - pee in shower
Aug. 4, 2009 04:55 PM
Associated Press

RIO DE JANEIRO - New TV ads are encouraging Brazilians to save water - by urinating in the shower.

Brazilian environmental group SOS Mata Atlantica says the campaign, running on several television stations, uses humor to persuade people to reduce flushes.

589 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:40:31pm

re: #581 Cato the Elder

The ecological benefit is just as imaginary, but people are buying it. Of course they are. It's "free" money.


Look's like there's going to be another $2 billion of free money by tomorrow.

I hope Toyota and Honda have enough inventory.

590 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:40:46pm

re: #545 Killgore Trout

Why Obama's health care bill will probably pass...
Glenn Beck: Why Does AARP Support Obama Health Care



Seriously watch this video and assess who's winning the debate. Beck brings up an edited (and probably out of context) statement from somebody's brother, the already debunked thing about euthanizing seniors, etc. Obama is blessed with stupid critics.

The guy with the AARP has the patience of Job to sit through some of that crap without losing his mind too.
Just because the AARP is pro health care, they are now ACORN ? The poor guy tries to explain the fact the bill just pays for end of life counseling and Beck ignores him and goes into the euthanasia rant.

591 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:40:51pm

re: #525 VioletTiger

Do they doubt his conclusions or look down on his credentials?

They say he is a nut who falsifies his data, quote mines and otherwise acts like Behe.

592 Lincolntf  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:41:54pm

re: #581 Cato the Elder

And tomorrow they'll tell us what geniuses they are because they figured out how to give away three times more "free money" than they originally intended to. What an accomplishment.
Maybe next they'll give out free hot dogs at Fenway Park and be shocked when one package isn't enough to go around.

593 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:42:01pm

re: #588 FurryOldGuyJeans

Brazil forest group: Go green - pee in shower
Aug. 4, 2009 04:55 PM
Associated Press

Makes perfect sense to me. Urine is sterile, and it all goes in the same sewer.

594 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:43:06pm

re: #580 kansas

Not sure why they were driving clunkers then, but if that is the case, there goes my repo theory.

These were second cars, kids cars etc. I have a 1998 Geo Prism, engine made by Toyota, runs great, still gets almost 40 miles a gallon, even now, since I am now going 23 miles up and down the Rocky Mountains (where I now live, moved from Golden a month ago).

It only has 77 thousand miles on it. A prime example of an older car which is still running well. I know a lot of people, with money, with the ability and credit rating to get a loan, who have "clunkers."

This is not a giveaway like the mortgages were 10 years ago. You have to have good credit to get a 15 to 25 thousand dollar loan, which is the amount you will need even after the rebates.

Clunker has a good cache, sounds like it helps all sorts of people, but it's a political move to call it that. This is cash for running cars, given to people who already can afford a new car, not some poor people.

595 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:43:46pm

re: #578 Killian Bundy

German football song irks Muslims


Oh sure, it's easy enough for Muslims to burn Christians alive in the streets of Pakistan for even the most minor perceived slight against Islam, but trying to intimidate hardcore German Bundesliga fans?

/well, good luck with that

I am pretty sure burning Christians produces man-made CO2

596 SteveC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:43:46pm

re: #588 FurryOldGuyJeans

Brazil forest group: Go green - pee in shower
Aug. 4, 2009 04:55 PM
Associated Press

I take diuretics! I'll be taking 20 showers a day!

/Ya'll 'scuse me while I whip this out...

597 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:43:50pm

I also find it to be appalling that so many people are blithely ignoring the environmental cost-benefit analyses of Bjorn Lomberg.

598 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:44:22pm

re: #476 Salamantis

Citations? From empirical studies, of course..ones that conclusively demonstrate that human emissions have overwhelmed solar cycler and orbital wobbles.

Check out those links Sal, in my 532. in those links are also links to the journal publications. If you don't like them then I can get you more papers.

599 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:44:29pm

re: #581 Cato the Elder

No one ever said the "clunkers" program would do anything for the economically disadvantaged.

At least they didn't promise that. The ecological benefit is just as imaginary, but people are buying it. Of course they are. It's "free" money.

I know that, but as evident from the comments from KANSAS, a lot of people think that this is a giveaway program for the poor or something like that.

And of course the ecological benefit is just imaginary.

600 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:44:32pm

Police: Robber who served 6 years hits same bank
Aug. 5, 2009 05:15 PM
Associated Press

UPPER TOWNSHIP, N.J. - A Pennsylvania man who served nearly six years in prison for robbing a southern New Jersey bank has been arrested in a recent robbery of the same bank.

601 mich-again  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:44:58pm

re: #559 scion9

He's saying 30% of CO2 in the atmosphere is man-made; not that the atmosphere is 30% CO2.

I should have read that twice.

602 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:45:00pm

re: #590 avanti

The guy with the AARP has the patience of Job to sit through some of that crap without losing his mind too.
Just because the AARP is pro health care, they are now ACORN ? The poor guy tries to explain the fact the bill just pays for end of life counseling and Beck ignores him and goes into the euthanasia rant.

I don't know what is real about this and not, but our education system should do a better job of teaching about health and that life ends. When my Mom was dying, Medicare paid for hospice and hospice counseled on end of life issues.

603 Lincolntf  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:45:11pm

re: #600 FurryOldGuyJeans

If at first you don't succeed...

604 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:45:22pm

re: #583 3 wood

Folks just ain't gettin' it yet, are they.

I am in sales of industrial related materials. Sales plummeted in April by 30% and I see no relief in sight. I can work like crazy and be creative as can be, but no one is buying. That is the truth. Anyone thinking we are at the beginning of some kind of rebound are either deluded or political or both.

605 SteveC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:45:30pm

re: #600 FurryOldGuyJeans

Police: Robber who served 6 years hits same bank
Aug. 5, 2009 05:15 PM
Associated Press

If at first you don't succeed, don't let that stop ya!

606 David Simon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:46:04pm

re: #570 kansas

Well, I'm thinking if you are driving a clunker there is probably a reason, the reason being you can't afford a new car. I'll bet there are many who are going over their ability to repay with this 4500 rebate, and in about 12 months we'll see some repos.

Ding ding ding. This "successful" program does nothing for the long term health of the economy. In fact, it's worse than doing nothing in that it encourages people to buy shit they can't afford -- and worse -- leads people to believe that there's nothing wrong with living above one's means.

Wealth isn't created by government subsidies and sloshing money around; it's created by productivity and ingenuity.

607 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:46:09pm

re: #587 jcm

Penn & Teller Bullshit episode on recycling.

Some night a group of us like minded Lizards should discuss Commercial Nuclear Power in America...It's the future but I have strong opinions about how we have approached it...I think the NRC is a joke..But that is another day my friend

608 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:46:26pm

re: #597 Salamantis

I also find it to be appalling that so many people are blithely ignoring the environmental cost-benefit analyses of Bjorn Lomberg.

Yet another of the whackos... You are really batting 1000 for the types of people you are digging up Sal. Do you care to bring Alister Crowley next?

Seriously, you want a cost benefit analysis...

OK

What is the value of Wall Street if Wall Street is under water?

609 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:46:26pm

re: #590 avanti

I'm very skeptical of these health care reforms. Doing this in the midst of an economic crisis is not the best time to tackle this. I'm also very concerned with the unintended consequences and things they haven't thought through yet. However, the weakness of the counter arguments makes me think that maybe it's not going to be too bad (maybe, or something). If they right has to rely on conspiracy theories to oppose this then I have no choice but to ignore them. I guess I'll just hang on and hope for the best.

610 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:46:34pm

OK, silly quiz time:

Who here has never peed in the shower?

(All "no" votes will be entered in a drawing for a free pair of burning pants.)

611 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:46:37pm

What is with people throwing around numbers on CO2 without links? Is this a pissing contest? Facts please.

612 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:46:52pm

re: #580 kansas

Not sure why they were driving clunkers then, but if that is the case, there goes my repo theory.

here's a data point ... my dad's 1985 Olds Calais 6-cyl is not a "clunker" by the program standards

/but it IS a pos

;)

613 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:46:57pm

Early job loss numbers for July.

Private-sector sheds 371,000 jobs in July, ADP says

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- In another sign that the labor market remains weak even as the economic downturn is moderating, private-sector employment in the United States fell by an estimated 371,000 jobs in the July ADP employment index, the smallest decline since October.

The goods-producing sector lost 169,000 jobs, while the service sector lost 202,000, according to ADP.

"Despite recent indications that overall economic activity is stabilizing, employment, which usually trails overall economic activity, is likely to decline for at least several more months," ADP said in a statement.

For June, private-sector jobs fell by a revised 463,000, ADP said. Job losses peaked at 736,000 in March, according to ADP. Read the full report.

Goods-producing industries cut 262,000 jobs after a loss of 324,000 in March, ADP said. Manufacturing companies cut 159,000 jobs and 95,000 were lost in construction. Services cut 229,000 jobs in April after 384,000 were lost in March. It was the first month since October in which goods-producing industries cut more jobs than the services did.

The index comes two days before the government releases its estimate of July nonfarm payrolls. Economists surveyed by MarketWatch are looking for payrolls to drop by 275,000 in the government survey, which would be the smallest decline since August.

614 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:47:00pm

re: #583 3 wood

Good evening.

The 10 year treasury rate inched up to 3.744% today, as compared to 2.6% in March.

Get ready for a pull back.

Market Insider: Jobless Data, Retail Sales to Challenge Stocks

I was expecting a 100 plus point drop, as a matter of fact, I would almost welcome a small correction. Why the small drop with some pretty bad numbers today, something I'm missing ?

615 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:47:06pm

re: #597 Salamantis

I also find it to be appalling that so many people are blithely ignoring the environmental cost-benefit analyses of Bjorn Lomberg.

DING!

Like I've asked before, what if we put all the time, and resources into stopping AGW and find out it's really naturally driven?

616 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:47:26pm

re: #604 The Shadow Do

Folks just ain't gettin' it yet, are they.

I am in sales of industrial related materials. Sales plummeted in April by 30% and I see no relief in sight. I can work like crazy and be creative as can be, but no one is buying. That is the truth. Anyone thinking we are at the beginning of some kind of rebound are either deluded or political or both.

I don't see IT jobs picking up one bit in the Denver area. And a state wide study last week can only associate 1000 new or saved jobs with the stimulus, and even those figures are suspect. And these figures came from the DEMOCRATIC governors office.

So there! :)

617 SteveC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:47:40pm

re: #604 The Shadow Do

Folks just ain't gettin' it yet, are they.

That could be the problem. I haven't gotten any in 12 days, making me crazy.

Oh... not that "it." Sorry!

618 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:47:46pm

re: #591 LudwigVanQuixote

They say he is a nut who falsifies his data, quote mines and otherwise acts like Behe.


Dry lab data is a pretty serious charge for a scientist. Can they back up that accusation?

619 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:47:49pm

re: #611 The Shadow Do

What is with people throwing around numbers on CO2 without links? Is this a pissing contest? Facts please.

Great, now we ALL have to get in the shower

/you're cleaning the grout

620 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:47:50pm

re: #613 3 wood

Early job loss numbers for July.

Private-sector sheds 371,000 jobs in July, ADP says

Another month where only government is a growth industiry. *SPIT*

621 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:48:50pm

re: #610 Cato the Elder

OK, silly quiz time:

Who here has never peed in the shower?

(All "no" votes will be entered in a drawing for a free pair of burning pants.)

Why, I don't get it. Is there some place else to pee?

622 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:49:12pm

re: #612 OldLineTexan

here's a data point ... my dad's 1985 Olds Calais 6-cyl is not a "clunker" by the program standards

/but it IS a pos

;)

Sounds like it was a trusty steed.

623 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:49:13pm

re: #610 Cato the Elder

OK, silly quiz time:

Who here has never peed in the shower?

(All "no" votes will be entered in a drawing for a free pair of burning pants.)

When I was five. I confess.

624 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:49:30pm

re: #608 LudwigVanQuixote

Yet another of the whackos... You are really batting 1000 for the types of people you are digging up Sal. Do you care to bring Alister Crowley next?

Seriously, you want a cost benefit analysis...

OK

What is the value of Wall Street if Wall Street is under water?

Oh, c'mon; if all of the ice on the planet melted, the global sea level would only rise several feet. 7/8 of sea ice displaces water anyway.

625 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:49:34pm

conspiracy theory is the new nazi ... you heard it here first

626 legalpad  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:49:58pm

re: #532 LudwigVanQuixote

Do you have any cogent sources for the specific issue of the human contribution to global warming? Your suggested solutions earlier sound excellent and rather thorough by the way. If only. I think there's another layer of obstacle to doing these solutions. Even with global warming being real with significant human cause, the powers that be will throw over real solutions for non-solution responses that make them money.

627 SteveC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:50:07pm

re: #613 3 wood

Early job loss numbers for July.

Private-sector sheds 371,000 jobs in July, ADP says

Good News: Job losses are down!

Bad News: We're running out of jobs to lose!

/not joking

628 spare o'lake  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:50:17pm

re: #584 Salamantis

And atmospheric CO2 currently stands at 387 parts per MILLION. In other words, for every molecule of CO2 in the atmosphere, there are 2584 molecules of other gases. By comparison, oxygen comprises 21% of the atmosphere or about 1 in 5 (far and away the most common atmospheric gas is nitrogen, at 78%, and all; the other atmospheric gases combined comprise only a bit more than 1%, most of that being argon). Not included in this composition is the 1% of the atmosphere that is dissolved water vapor.

I find it amazing that plant life is so efficient at gathering the relatively sparse atmospheric CO2 that it does not suffocate and die.

Extremely minute quantities of chemicals can be incredibly toxic - dioxin comes to mind. Many organisms and ecosystems are really quite fragile.

629 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:50:21pm

re: #604 The Shadow Do

Anyone thinking we are at the beginning of some kind of rebound are either deluded or political or both.

I think it is a combination of a lack of understanding about economics and ideological wishful thinking.

630 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:50:51pm

re: #621 Walter L. Newton

Why, I don't get it. Is there some place else to pee?

as a male, it is my sacred duty to "water" gaia's tree-beings with my stream of stewardship

631 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:51:12pm

re: #613 3 wood

Early job loss numbers for July.

Private-sector sheds 371,000 jobs in July, ADP says

I work for a global 100 fortune company. January 1 will be a bloodbath. Folks ain't seen nothin' yet.

632 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:51:12pm

re: #618 VioletTiger

Dry lab data is a pretty serious charge for a scientist. Can they back up that accusation?

That's why I linked to the science blog talking about one of his figures that people in the science world have questioned much like Charles questioned Rather.

633 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:51:33pm

re: #629 3 wood

I think it is a combination of a lack of understanding about economics and ideological wishful thinking.

The GUBMINT says we are, and so they believe it.

634 mich-again  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:51:46pm

re: #615 jcm

Like I've asked before, what if we put all the time, and resources into stopping AGW and find out it's really naturally driven?

We're in uncharted territory regarding CO2 levels in the atmosphere. 400,000 year historical trend for CO2. I'm wondering what natural correction factor will eventually kick in.

635 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:51:48pm

re: #602 kansas

I don't know what is real about this and not, but our education system should do a better job of teaching about health and that life ends. When my Mom was dying, Medicare paid for hospice and hospice counseled on end of life issues.

That's all the bill does, but with your private doctor. You can't get paid for it until you are 65, then only every 5 years. Unlike the spin, it's not a mandatory meeting to see if that government will kill you.

636 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:51:51pm

re: #628 spare o'lake

Extremely minute quantities of chemicals can be incredibly toxic - dioxin comes to mind. Many organisms and ecosystems are really quite fragile.

Just one cc of inhaled or aspirated dihydrogen monoxide can be fatal. When, oh when will we ban the stuff?

637 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:51:56pm

re: #628 spare o'lake

Extremely minute quantities of chemicals can be incredibly toxic - dioxin comes to mind. Many organisms and ecosystems are really quite fragile.

the rare gazan rooster, for example ... wiped out in the great dumpling blight of 2009

638 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:52:05pm

re: #628 spare o'lake

Extremely minute quantities of chemicals can be incredibly toxic - dioxin comes to mind. Many organisms and ecosystems are really quite fragile.

Carbon dioxide ain't dioxin by a long shot, even if they sound the same.

639 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:52:21pm

re: #624 Salamantis

Oh, c'mon; if all of the ice on the planet melted, the global sea level would only rise several feet. 7/8 of sea ice displaces water anyway.

Ohhh c'mon, how bad would that be for Wall Street?

640 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:52:27pm

re: #614 avanti

Why the small drop with some pretty bad numbers today, something I'm missing ?

Light volume, a lot of folks are on vacation and not paying attention.

Also the pro's are standing back and waiting for the last of the hopeful suckers to jump in the pool before they pull the drain plug

641 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:52:59pm

re: #630 OldLineTexan

as a male, it is my sacred duty to "water" gaia's tree-beings with my stream of stewardship

And does Cato want to know the same thing about taking a shit, because I will tell him?

642 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:53:18pm

re: #635 avanti

That's all the bill does, but with your private doctor. You can't get paid for it until you are 65, then only every 5 years. Unlike the spin, it's not a mandatory meeting to see if that government will kill you.

governments will kill you ... check the stats for the twentieth century ... hoo boy

643 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:53:26pm

re: #610 Cato the Elder

Cato - you are cracking me up tonight. Am I facing impending doom or something? ;)

644 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:53:50pm

re: #641 Walter L. Newton

And does Cato want to know the same thing about taking a shit, because I will tell him?

The sharks waiting for all the minnows to assemble for dinner.

645 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:53:53pm

re: #615 jcm

DING!

Like I've asked before, what if we put all the time, and resources into stopping AGW and find out it's really naturally driven?

We would have saved a whole bunch of oil that we'd be buying from the importers, and used less energy.

646 SteveC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:53:55pm

re: #636 Cato the Elder

Just one cc of inhaled or aspirated dihydrogen monoxide can be fatal. When, oh when will we ban the stuff?

They haven't made that a controlled substance by now?

647 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:54:19pm

re: #641 Walter L. Newton

And does Cato want to know the same thing about taking a shit, because I will tell him?

you and i both commune with the bears, i can feel it

but the shower drain is not meant for solids

648 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:54:56pm

re: #629 3 wood

I think it is a combination of a lack of understanding about economics and ideological wishful thinking.

I am in the middle of forecasting 2010 sales. I was asked to speak candidly. I said it would be flat with this year. To say anything else is impermissible. I expect next year to be down at least another 10%.

649 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:55:32pm

re: #647 OldLineTexan

you and i both commune with the bears, i can feel it

but the shower drain is not meant for solids

I had one walk by the house about two weeks ago, brown bear, early morning, about 50 yards away. I said "hi" and went back into the house.

650 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:55:47pm

re: #647 OldLineTexan

you and i both commune with the bears, i can feel it

but the shower drain is not meant for solids

I'm hazarding a wild guess that you two don't commune with the same bears that Andrew Sullivan does...;~)

651 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:55:48pm

re: #644 FurryOldGuyJeans

The sharks waiting for all the minnows to assemble for dinner.

Wrong quote yet again, grrr. Should have been:

re: #640 3 wood

Light volume, a lot of folks are on vacation and not paying attention.

Also the pro's are standing back and waiting for the last of the hopeful suckers to jump in the pool before they pull the drain plug

652 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:55:48pm

re: #599 Walter L. Newton

I know that, but as evident from the comments from KANSAS, a lot of people think that this is a giveaway program for the poor or something like that.

And of course the ecological benefit is just imaginary.

I keep thinking that some poor person or battered woman could use that car to get to work or start a new life.

653 itellu3times  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:55:59pm

re: #631 The Shadow Do

I work for a global 100 fortune company. January 1 will be a bloodbath. Folks ain't seen nothin' yet.

I just finished a ten-month and very unlikely gig at ye old major bank and am now looking for new gig. I have my salary requirements set down low on the job boards - and am getting basically no calls. Of course, August is generally slow even in good years, but this seems really, really quiet.

654 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:56:10pm

re: #646 SteveC

They haven't made that a controlled substance by now?

No - it's a cover-up, a conspiracy and a catastrophe, portending cataclysm, calling for an immediate international council and decree of emergency!

655 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:56:25pm

re: #627 SteveC

Good News: Job losses are down!

Bad News: We're running out of jobs to lose!

/not joking

But what about the green shoots? And anyway, it's Bush's fault. When I get home and my basement has flooded with 4 inches of water, I don't get the hose out, fill it another 2 inches and declare that there is 50 percent less flooding.

656 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:56:32pm

re: #626 legalpad

Do you have any cogent sources for the specific issue of the human contribution to global warming? Your suggested solutions earlier sound excellent and rather thorough by the way. If only. I think there's another layer of obstacle to doing these solutions. Even with global warming being real with significant human cause, the powers that be will throw over real solutions for non-solution responses that make them money.

Well I guess that depends on what you mean by cogent... I've given you public links to many of the important data sets. If you want an executive summary:

When scientists, who are not on the fringe, like Plimer, look at the data and analysis as presented in those links, we have ruled out causes other than man made.

Thank you for liking my ideas. You are right that the political system is unlikely to save us in time.

657 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:56:46pm

re: #640 3 wood

Light volume, a lot of folks are on vacation and not paying attention.

Also the pro's are standing back and waiting for the last of the hopeful suckers to jump in the pool before they pull the drain plug

LOL!

658 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:57:01pm

re: #650 Salamantis

I'm hazarding a wild guess that you two don't commune with the same bears that Andrew Sullivan does...;~)

this one time, at band camp ...

/not really

659 mich-again  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:57:37pm

re: #629 3 wood

I think it is a combination of a lack of understanding about economics and ideological wishful thinking.

Its an economy based on consumer confidence.

660 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:57:54pm

OK, so how many AGW people support nuclear power?

661 SteveC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:58:22pm

re: #659 mich-again

Its an economy based on consumer confidence.

Where did i put that number of those gold brokers?

662 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:58:33pm

re: #631 The Shadow Do

I work for a global 100 fortune company. January 1 will be a bloodbath. Folks ain't seen nothin' yet.


Well, it's actually fairly simple. When you see clear evidence of real GDP growth (i.e., inflation adjusted) and increasing employment, then things are moving forward.

Otherwise, we are creating the short term illusion of prosperity by writing rubber checks.


Anybody else notice how Bernanke has gotten real quiet lately? i think I saw him on a milk carton today.

I think he is wondering "what do I do now?"

663 Lincolntf  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:59:28pm

re: #652 VioletTiger

Plenty of returning Vets who could use a hand up when they get home. I'm sure more than a few of them would be thrilled to get a "clunker" when they got off the plane.
But that wouldn't serve Gaia, so it's a non-starter.

664 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:59:34pm

re: #645 avanti

We would have saved a whole bunch of oil that we'd be buying from the importers, and used less energy.

Natural Gas, clean and lots of it.

Who says NO to natural gas?

665 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:59:34pm

I feel like a number.

Youtube Video
666 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:59:38pm

re: #618 VioletTiger

Dry lab data is a pretty serious charge for a scientist. Can they back up that accusation?

Also notice this bit I quoted above:

[21] Charlie Veron, former chief scientist at the Australian Institute of Marine Science, said every original statement Plimer makes in the book on coral and coral reefs is incorrect, and that Plimer "serve[s] up diagrams from no acknowledged source, diagrams known to be obsolete and diagrams that combine bits of science with bits of fiction."[9]

667 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:59:56pm

BY ONE!

668 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 7:59:57pm

re: #662 3 wood

Can we shoot him some emails with suggestions? helpbailoutbernanke.gov?

669 itellu3times  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:00:08pm

re: #659 mich-again

Its an economy based on consumer confidence.

Stock valuations got so ridiculous late last year, that just returning to an accurate but weak valuation looks like a rally.

That, and I suspect some major market manipulations that probably aren't exactly legal, not to mention the government purchase of GM, Chrysler, and big chunks of major banks.

670 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:00:21pm

re: #574 Walter L. Newton

That further points to the fact that buyers are simply people who either delayed or accelerated buying cars - not actually creating demand over what should be expected for the year. It may make the July figures look better comparatively speaking to last year's figures, but then again, anything could do that - it was that bad.

And this year isn't anything to cheer about either. The sales are still in the doldrums, and cash for clunkers destroys wealth, and puts people who more often than not paid off their vehicles back on the credit carousel when they could have saved money by keeping the clunker and maintaining their existing cars, even if they didn't get nearly as good gas mileage.

But gas mileage isn't the only thing to factor - what about the energy taken to build the new cars and destroy and cart off the old ones... throw those in, and the "green" isn't quite as green as the Administration wants you to believe.

671 SteveC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:00:32pm

re: #663 Lincolntf

Plenty of returning Vets who could use a hand up when they get home. I'm sure more than a few of them would be thrilled to get a "clunker" when they got off the plane.
But that wouldn't serve Gaia, so it's a non-starter.

HELP a vet? Obama? Surely you jest!

672 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:00:56pm

re: #653 itellu3times

I just finished a ten-month and very unlikely gig at ye old major bank and am now looking for new gig. I have my salary requirements set down low on the job boards - and am getting basically no calls. Of course, August is generally slow even in good years, but this seems really, really quiet.

Ugh, I wish I had something optimistic to say. I don't. 2010 may well see this old guy looking for a new gig as well. Prospects for highly paid old farts are pretty dismal.

673 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:01:12pm

re: #664 jcm

I do when it's created under the covers with my husband laughing hysterically. Just sayin'

674 Lincolntf  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:02:28pm

re: #671 SteveC

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting. Veterans are to be monitored, not rewarded.

675 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:02:32pm

Driver on antique tractor in parade is Tasered
Aug. 5, 2009 10:55 AM
Associated Press

GLENROCK, Wyo. - Investigators say police in a small Wyoming town used a Taser on a 76-year-old man driving an antique tractor in a parade after he allegedly hit a car and disobeyed orders.

676 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:02:42pm

re: #662 3 wood

Cripes.

677 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:02:44pm

re: #664 jcm

Natural Gas, clean and lots of it.

Who says NO to natural gas?

beano?

678 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:02:55pm

re: #662 3 wood

I think he is wondering "what do I do now?"

It's 4th and 46 on our own 10 yard line and they are considering the following options

draw play
QB sneak
take a knee


PUNT BEN PUNT !

679 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:02:57pm

re: #648 The Shadow Do

I expect next year to be down at least another 10%.

I think that is fairly accurate. 8% to 10% I'm thinking.

Lots of people are taking on consumer debt with the clunkers program and some of that will default. This Christmas season will be way down. Credit cards are continuing to default. Some people are running out of unemployment benefits, and jobs continue to be destroyed.

680 VioletTiger  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:03:25pm

re: #632 LudwigVanQuixote

That's why I linked to the science blog talking about one of his figures that people in the science world have questioned much like Charles questioned Rather.


I'll take a closer look at this. I don't know much about him.

681 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:03:41pm

re: #645 avanti

We would have saved a whole bunch of oil that we'd be buying from the importers, and used less energy.

Not necessarily. It would depend on the price of that energy - and whether people would be encouraged to drive - undercutting whatever efficiencies.

Then, there's the matter of the economy in general - if the economy is going gangbusters, it can absorb energy price hikes (and creates price pressures to the upside because of increased demand).

In a down economy, price pressure slackens, but as we're seeing, the price is staying up because OPEC is purposefully trying to keep oil at or above $60, and China is still buying plenty of oil.

If the US goes this route alone, it will suffer more than a country that ignores the AGW altogether such as China or India - both of which refuse to do anything that hurts their economies.

682 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:03:41pm

re: #637 OldLineTexan

the rare gazan rooster, for example ... wiped out in the great dumpling blight of 2009


Deep within the NSA intercepts the true story of the Gaza Rooster is beginning to unfold...Leaks from Washington are slowly beginning to emerge..
The Gaza Rooster was a clever double agent working both sides...
Do you really think every time he crowed a bomb would go off..That it was a coincidence? The secret campaign to take out the Gaza rooster was approved by the highest in office...I'm not saying the CIA was involved...But...
///

683 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:03:42pm

re: #673 ArmyWife

I do when it's created under the covers with my husband laughing hysterically. Just sayin'

pretty sure that's against the Geneva Conventions you should haul him up on charges

/

684 mich-again  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:03:44pm

re: #670 lawhawk

what about the energy taken to build the new cars

A decent estimate is 1 megawatt hour for all the energy to build a car or truck. Depends on the local energy market but in the USA its about $70.

685 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:03:52pm

re: #678 Shug

It's 4th and 46 on our own 10 yard line and they are considering the following options

draw play
QB sneak
take a knee

Herm Edwards, is that you?

686 ArmyWife  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:04:01pm

I'm off to bed. Crazy thunderstorms here!

687 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:04:30pm

re: #613 3 wood

Early job loss numbers for July.

Private-sector sheds 371,000 jobs in July, ADP says

"But we created or saves 150,000 jobs!"
~The One

688 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:04:32pm

re: #672 The Shadow Do

Ugh, I wish I had something optimistic to say. I don't. 2010 may well see this old guy looking for a new gig as well. Prospects for highly paid old farts are pretty dismal.

Why pay for an old fart who's likely to actually use health insurance when you can get two free recent BAs, call 'em "interns" and pay nothing while they give you BJs in gratitude for the "experience"?

689 SteveC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:04:42pm

re: #683 OldLineTexan

pretty sure that's against the Geneva Conventions you should haul him up on charges

/

if that doesn't work, ban him to the couch.

690 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:05:00pm

re: #684 mich-again

A decent estimate is 1 megawatt hour for all the energy to build a car or truck. Depends on the local energy market but in the USA its about $70.


and the energy to junk 1 Delorean clunker

1.21 gigawatts

691 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:05:11pm

re: #496 Walter L. Newton

Yes, this is your fringe element scientist...

Dr. Pilmer

Member, Advisory Council for the New South Wales Minister for Primary Industries
Fellow of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering
Eureka Prize (2002), for A Short History of Planet Earth
Eureka Prize (1995), for promotion of science
The Michael Daley Prize for the Promotion of Science (now a Eureka Prize), (1994), for communication of science
Fellow of the Australasian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy
Fellow of the Australian Institute of Geoscientists
Honorary Fellow of the Geological Society, London
Clarke Medal, 2004
Centenary Medal, 2003
Rio Tinto Award for Mining Excellence, 2005
Sir Willis Connelly Medal, Australasian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, 2006
Leopold von Buch Plakette of the German Geological Society, 1994

I suppose he picked up all these positions in a cereal box prize.

So what about the scientific community's total bashing of him? What about his false figures? What about his bad data? What about his open lies?

This guy really, much like Behe, had a real career before he went bonkers.

Now he is considered, by the respectable science community to be a nut jub, a crank, a fraud, a fool, a liar.

Just like Behe.

Check this out yourself.

692 Truck Monkey  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:05:26pm

re: #662 3 wood

Well, it's actually fairly simple. When you see clear evidence of real GDP growth (i.e., inflation adjusted) and increasing employment, then things are moving forward.

Otherwise, we are creating the short term illusion of prosperity by writing rubber checks.

Anybody else notice how Bernanke has gotten real quiet lately? i think I saw him on a milk carton today.

I think he is wondering "what do I do now?"

The poor bastard inherited this mess from the failed policies of the Bush Regime. What? He was part of it? Never mind...
/I think I got the verbiage right

693 SteveC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:06:25pm

re: #692 Truck Monkey

The poor bastard inherited this mess from the failed policies of the Bush Regime. What? He was part of it? Never mind...
/I think I got the verbiage right

That's actually pretty good. You need a little more frothing at the mouth, though. That would be perfect!

694 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:06:59pm

re: #675 FurryOldGuyJeans

Driver on antique tractor in parade is Tasered
Aug. 5, 2009 10:55 AM
Associated Press

Looks like Obama needs more beer.

695 Lincolntf  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:07:06pm

Oh well, I'm getting sleepy. Must be all that excess CO2 in the air.
See y'all in the AM.

696 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:07:15pm

re: #668 ArmyWife

Can we shoot him some emails with suggestions? helpbailoutbernanke.gov?

Actually with the massive debt we have now created care of the Messiah, his hands are tied a bit on his monitary policy options.

697 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:07:19pm

re: #693 SteveC

That's actually pretty good. You need a little more frothing at the mouth, though. That would be perfect!

try a baking soda and vinegar mouthwash

698 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:08:11pm

"Squeaky" Fromme go home

699 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:08:14pm

re: #665 MandyManners

Me too

Youtube Video
700 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:08:22pm

re: #697 OldLineTexan

try a baking soda and vinegar mouthwash

Mmmm, minty fresh!

701 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:08:53pm

re: #679 3 wood

I think that is fairly accurate. 8% to 10% I'm thinking.

Lots of people are taking on consumer debt with the clunkers program and some of that will default. This Christmas season will be way down. Credit cards are continuing to default. Some people are running out of unemployment benefits, and jobs continue to be destroyed.

But, but we are at the beginning of the end of the recession! Just ask any Dem. Avanti, are you here?

I am by nature, as a sales person, an optimist. That said, there is no, I repeat no reason for optimism. The hurt has not struck deep enough yet, but it will. This I know. Only when the pain is deep enough in the society will a recovery take place. IMHO of course.

702 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:09:23pm

re: #697 OldLineTexan

try a baking soda and vinegar mouthwash

won't that make a bomb?

703 legalpad  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:09:36pm

re: #656 LudwigVanQuixote

Well I guess that depends on what you mean by cogent... I've given you public links to many of the important data sets. If you want an executive summary:

When scientists, who are not on the fringe, like Plimer, look at the data and analysis as presented in those links, we have ruled out causes other than man made.

Thank you for liking my ideas. You are right that the political system is unlikely to save us in time.

OK. The idea of ruling out other possible causes is useful. It will help me know what sort of things to look for. I think I may be looking for sun-related things. I have been thinking in terms of estimating our CO2 output compared to non-human related sources. By cogent, at least a good summary of the most pointed data regarding causes. A "site map" as it were to help wade through the reams of data.

704 SteveC  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:09:51pm

re: #702 albusteve

won't that make a bomb?

Made a volcano in grade school!

705 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:09:56pm

re: #673 ArmyWife

I do when it's created under the covers with my husband laughing hysterically. Just sayin'

re: #677 OldLineTexan

beano?

I give up!

Have a beer on me!

706 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:10:48pm

Meanwhile, in a court right here in the U.S. of A.,


[Link: www.mysouthwestga.com...]

707 spare o'lake  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:10:52pm

re: #665 MandyManners

I feel like a number.

...out on runway number nine...

Youtube Video
708 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:10:54pm

re: #688 Cato the Elder

Why pay for an old fart who's likely to actually use health insurance when you can get two free recent BAs, call 'em "interns" and pay nothing while they give you BJs in gratitude for the "experience"?

Exactomundo.

Be respectful of your neighborhood Walmart Greeter, he may just be a Lizard.

709 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:11:36pm

re: #704 SteveC

Made a volcano in grade school!

something like that...I mean to go around and tell people to bomb their mouth off is sorta cruel, isn't it?

710 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:12:17pm

re: #679 3 wood

I think that is fairly accurate. 8% to 10% I'm thinking.

Lots of people are taking on consumer debt with the clunkers program and some of that will default. This Christmas season will be way down. Credit cards are continuing to default. Some people are running out of unemployment benefits, and jobs continue to be destroyed.

There are a lot of people with ARMs that bought in early 2007 (worst financial move ever) that will be resetting in 2010. They are also way underwater on those loans.

I'm also hearing (not sure of the veracity) that there is still a tsunami of commercial real estate foreclosures on the horizon. I do know that the complex that my office is in is over 50% vacant, and the building next to it is as well.

I also have a sneaky suspicion that a lot of the TARP money was not used to deal with "troubled assets" and instead was either "sat on" or used to feed this bogus, bull market.

711 spidly  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:12:21pm

Ugh. When I lived in Denmark my "free" health care cost me 49.5% of prepcook-dishwashers' minimum wage and 25% VAT. If I wanted to see my assigned PCP, forget about it, month out at best. Charges for q-tips and bandages and whatnot. Free, woo hoo.
Having to grease palms for care in the Hungarian system was really interesting. Bonus for drug seekers though, prescriptions for sale, but you could get whatever you wanted at the pharmacy for the right price anyway.
Neither as horrific as Greece. Don't get sick there.

712 kansas  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:12:23pm

re: #706 MandyManners

Meanwhile, in a court right here in the U.S. of A.,

[Link: www.mysouthwestga.com...]

Not guilty, obviously. Probably had a harsh childhood./

713 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:12:50pm

re: #708 The Shadow Do

Exactomundo.

Be respectful of your neighborhood Walmart Greeter, he may just be a Lizard.

My favorite Wal Mart greeter, wears a WWII cap, I'll talk to him while my wife shops. He was a Beach Master on Iwo.

714 Truck Monkey  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:13:02pm

re: #693 SteveC

That's actually pretty good. You need a little more frothing at the mouth, though. That would be perfect!

I'm frothing alright. I have seen my biz drop off at a pace of about 10% as well. Employees are going to need to go and guess who is responsible for doing that? I haven't slept well in weeks as I am tied in knots and don't see any really easy answers in front of me. I hope that with continued effort I will see a rebound next year, but I see an ugly fall on the horizon. Sad times indeed.

715 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:13:17pm

re: #681 lawhawk

In a down economy, price pressure slackens, but as we're seeing, the price is staying up because OPEC is purposefully trying to keep oil at or above $60, and China is still buying plenty of oil.


Plus, don't overlook the impact of the depreciating dollar. As the dollar loses value (thank you President Obama), the price of oil as denominated in dollars goes up.

So then we have to sell even more dollars to buy a barrel of oil, which continues to flood the money market with dollars and the it depreciates some more.

I don't think this group in Washington understands the international money market very well.

716 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:13:50pm

re: #706 MandyManners

Meanwhile, in a court right here in the U.S. of A.,


[Link: www.mysouthwestga.com...]

Sadequee asked the judge if he could open by reciting seven verses of the Quran. But U.S. District Judge Bill Duffey warned him he should keep it short. He says, "This is a criminal trial, not a place to pray."

--in other words, go fuck yourself .

717 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:13:58pm

The US could totally flatline its carbon dioxide production - zero it out - and unless Russia, China, Brazil and India start doing things MUCH differently, the atmospheric effect would be overridden big time.

And they ain't signing on.

So what are we supposed to get out of all this except economic suicide?

718 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:14:00pm

re: #712 kansas

Not guilty, obviously. Probably had a harsh childhood./

Well, they hooked Fridgidaire today, we've got that at least.

719 David Simon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:14:09pm

re: #688 Cato the Elder

Why pay for an old fart who's likely to actually use health insurance when you can get two free recent BAs, call 'em "interns" and pay nothing while they give you BJs in gratitude for the "experience"?

Because the old fart can get the job done and the recent grads can't?

720 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:14:50pm

re: #713 jcm

My favorite Wal Mart greeter, wears a WWII cap, I'll talk to him while my wife shops. He was a Beach Master on Iwo.

tough job...direct fire and all that

721 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:15:16pm

re: #713 jcm

My favorite Wal Mart greeter, wears a WWII cap, I'll talk to him while my wife shops. He was a Beach Master on Iwo.

Wonderful. Respect that man. I know you do.

722 Shug  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:15:35pm

re: #713 jcm

My favorite Wal Mart greeter, wears a WWII cap, I'll talk to him while my wife shops. He was a Beach Master on Iwo.

where is your wal mart. I'd like to meet that guy

723 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:15:42pm

re: #699 Killgore Trout

Me too

Youtube Video

I'm telling you, Kilgore. We should get married and retain some surogates for the babies.

724 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:15:48pm

re: #692 Truck Monkey

The poor bastard inherited this mess from the failed policies of the Bush Regime.

I expect to hear a whole lot more of that, some more attacks on Palin, and probably another attack on Cheney too by the MSM.

725 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:15:55pm

re: #682 HoosierHoops

But, he sure was a fun rooster!

726 John Neverbend  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:16:01pm

I was only able to take the first 3 minutes of part 1 before I had to stop. What was Dawkins thinking? Was he doing it as a dare or for a large bet? By the time I hit the stop button, they were still standing, rather as though they were about to wrestle and haul each other to the ground. I found the sheer level of philistine pig ignorance displayed by Ms. Wright to be simultaneously infuriating and incredibly embarrassing.

727 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:16:14pm

re: #701 The Shadow Do

But, but we are at the beginning of the end of the recession! Just ask any Dem. Avanti, are you here?

I am by nature, as a sales person, an optimist. That said, there is no, I repeat no reason for optimism. The hurt has not struck deep enough yet, but it will. This I know. Only when the pain is deep enough in the society will a recovery take place. IMHO of course.

Bookmark your post, because I disagree with both you and 3wood. I am optimistic, I've been hearing gloom and doom for months from the right, and I don't buy it, but we'll see.

728 tradewind  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:16:18pm

re: #706 MandyManners

Ehsanul Islam Sadequee (Sah-DEE'-quee) is representing himself in the opening statements scheduled for Tuesday.


Greaaat... there's his appeal basis, after round one...

729 Truck Monkey  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:16:19pm

re: #715 3 wood

Plus, don't overlook the impact of the depreciating dollar. As the dollar loses value (thank you President Obama), the price of oil as denominated in dollars goes up.

So then we have to sell even more dollars to buy a barrel of oil, which continues to flood the money market with dollars and the it depreciates some more.

I don't think this group in Washington understands the international money market very well ANYTHING.

FTFY

730 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:17:35pm

re: #715 3 wood

Plus, don't overlook the impact of the depreciating dollar. As the dollar loses value (thank you President Obama), the price of oil as denominated in dollars goes up.

So then we have to sell even more dollars to buy a barrel of oil, which continues to flood the money market with dollars and the it depreciates some more.

I don't think this group in Washington understands the international money market very well economics period.

FTFY

731 kateca  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:17:48pm

re: #652 VioletTiger

I keep thinking that some poor person or battered woman could use that car to get to work or start a new life.

Remeber when re-cyclying meant not throwing away perfectly good stuff?

732 Truck Monkey  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:18:01pm

re: #724 3 wood

I expect to hear a whole lot more of that, some more attacks on Palin, and probably another attack on Cheney too by the MSM.

Reminds me of the Chappelle Black George Bush skit. Familiar?

733 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:18:13pm

re: #719 David Simon

Because the old fart can get the job done and the recent grads can't?

You're selling, corporate ain't buyin'. If your old your done in a tight economy.

734 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:18:21pm

re: #712 kansas

Not guilty, obviously. Probably had a harsh childhood./

If we all had perfect parents, 6,000,000 Jews would still be alive.

735 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:18:29pm

re: #701 The Shadow Do

I am by nature, as a sales person, an optimist. That said, there is no, I repeat no reason for optimism. The hurt has not struck deep enough yet, but it will. This I know. Only when the pain is deep enough in the society will a recovery take place. IMHO of course.

Fat Vegetarian B*st*rd was saying earlier that another salesman told him he'd had 20 sales calls or so recently that were just people who thought they were going to get free stuff from the White House and were looking for it.

736 albusteve  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:18:48pm

re: #727 avanti

Bookmark your post, because I disagree with both you and 3wood. I am optimistic, I've been hearing gloom and doom for months from the right, and I don't buy it, but we'll see.

and you think BO gives great speeches!...a twofer!...there HAS been doom and gloom for months...the fact that you don't buy it is telling...wtf?

737 freetoken  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:19:47pm

Back from the store... and even with chocolate fudge brownie ice cream the videos of Ms. Wright and Mr. Dawkins are unwatchable. ( It is a rare event when even chocolate ice cream can't cover up the weakness of a presentation.)

Thinking about it... I don't think it is Ms. Wright's ignorance which is so unpalatable, but rather her earnestness. It's tough to deal with people who equate earnestness with truth. It just is.

It makes me discouraged to know that Ms. Wright's approach to this issue (and similar) is held by such a large fraction of my fellow Americans.

738 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:20:00pm

re: #710 ArchangelMichael

I'm also hearing (not sure of the veracity) that there is still a tsunami of commercial real estate foreclosures on the horizon. I do know that the complex that my office is in is over 50% vacant, and the building next to it is as well.


I'm hearing some of the same stuff now from my friends in commercial banking.

739 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:20:05pm

re: #727 avanti

Bookmark your post, because I disagree with both you and 3wood. I am optimistic, I've been hearing gloom and doom for months from the right, and I don't buy it, but we'll see.


when I'm packaged out on Jan 1 will you teach me how to sell cars?"

740 jcm  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:22:18pm

re: #722 Shug

where is your wal mart. I'd like to meet that guy

Meet him at Auburn, WA. don't get there often, but I look for him when we do.

741 tradewind  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:22:49pm

re: #731 kateca

I can't believe that ACORN or one of its clones hasn't taken on the project of funneling all the clunkers south of the border, and letting la raza pass them out in a humanitarian gesture to thwart those nasty coyotes.

742 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:22:52pm

re: #733 The Shadow Do

You're selling, corporate ain't buyin'. If your old your done in a tight economy.

If you are over 50 and make 6 figures, watch your back.

743 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:22:53pm

re: #703 legalpad

OK. The idea of ruling out other possible causes is useful. It will help me know what sort of things to look for. I think I may be looking for sun-related things. I have been thinking in terms of estimating our CO2 output compared to non-human related sources. By cogent, at least a good summary of the most pointed data regarding causes. A "site map" as it were to help wade through the reams of data.

Here, Try this from MIT.

[Link: mit.edu...]

Specifically look at the five links in the center of that page. Guys, cut me a break here also. If I am bringing you MIT, Princeton, Columbia and UCSD, and you are bringing me angry right wing blogs, who wins scientifically?

The most comprehensive modeling yet carried out on the likelihood of how much hotter the Earth's climate will get in this century shows that without rapid and massive action, the problem will be about twice as severe as previously estimated six years ago - and could be even worse than that.


[Link: web.mit.edu...]

744 David Simon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:23:43pm

re: #733 The Shadow Do

You're selling, corporate ain't buyin'. If your old your done in a tight economy.

Because the job gets eliminated, not because you get replaced with pischers.

745 spare o'lake  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:23:47pm

I never give you my number...

Youtube Video
re: #734 MandyManners

If we all had perfect parents, 6,000,000 Jews would still be alive.

It's only a matter of inches from the village to the jungle.

746 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:24:26pm

re: #727 avanti

I've been hearing gloom and doom for months from the right, and I don't buy it, but we'll see.

Please show me that real GDP is growing or employment is increasing.

747 CynicalConservative  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:24:26pm

re: #742 3 wood

If you are over 50 and make 6 figures, watch your back.

I think if you're over 50 and work anywhere in corporate America, watch your back; regardless of salary level.

748 spidly  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:24:58pm

re: #738 3 wood

I'm hearing some of the same stuff now from my friends in commercial banking.

former employer moved into a new building slightly larger, with a 67' paint booth designed for semi trucks with trailer. $5000 a month less, 1st and last, 5 months free on a 1 year lease. Good deals out there if you're trying to cut costs!

749 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:25:21pm

re: #735 3 wood

Fat Vegetarian B*st*rd was saying earlier that another salesman told him he'd had 20 sales calls or so recently that were just people who thought they were going to get free stuff from the White House and were looking for it.

No different with major investors/companies. T. Boone Pickens. Stuck with millions of dollars of investment going nowhere with wind power that he was sure was an immediate winner. All he had to do was talk it up. I thought he was smarter than that. Guess not.

750 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:26:57pm

Folks, look up the article written by Greg Bluestein.

751 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:26:57pm

re: #742 3 wood

toast

752 Truck Monkey  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:27:28pm

re: #747 CynicalConservative

I think if you're over 50 and work anywhere in corporate America, watch your back; regardless of salary level.

Amen to that. There is always a hot new blond right around the corner that can catch an employers eye.

753 mich-again  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:27:36pm

re: #715 3 wood

One fix is to reduce oil consumption enough to cause a glut and a price crash. It would only take maybe a 5% drop in consumption to make that happen. But forget about replacing the fleet, that will take too long. We need quick easy fixes like having school districts go to a 4-day week to save 20% of their fuel use, get all the municipalities to time the red-green lights to keep traffic flowing without all the stops and starts, plan highway construction projects to eliminate the bottleneck traffic jams, have the post office go to 4 days delivery per week, those kind of solutions. Of course there is the natural correction in that as fewer people work and travel our fuel consumption will naturally drop, but we need to do more than just that. And of course increasing our own domestic supply of oil would do that as well but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.

754 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:27:44pm

re: #739 The Shadow Do

when I'm packaged out on Jan 1 will you teach me how to sell cars?"

Count on it, I need more dealers. Here's my business model. If I find a car near you, I buy it, pay for any needed parts, you prep and detail it for ebay. You take some pictures, I take the risk of the buy, do the ebay listing, get paid and split the profit. I have one guy doing it full time in California, the others just weekends.

755 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:28:58pm

re: #744 David Simon

Because the job gets eliminated, not because you get replaced with pischers.

Technically true of course. Can't have old farts filing discrimination suits and such.

756 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:29:43pm

What else are we not hearing about from the MFM?

What about the training camps in Connecticut?

757 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:29:45pm

re: #723 MandyManners

I'm telling you, Kilgore. We should get married and retain some surogates for the babies.

Eliminate the fun part? That's not open to negotiation.
;)

758 Truck Monkey  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:29:56pm

re: #754 avanti

Count on it, I need more dealers. Here's my business model. If I find a car near you, I buy it, pay for any needed parts, you prep and detail it for ebay. You take some pictures, I take the risk of the buy, do the ebay listing, get paid and split the profit. I have one guy doing it full time in California, the others just weekends.

Do you ever catch the Mecum Classic Auto auctions on HDTV theater channel? Had some real nice Avantis and Studebakers for sale on one show last week.

759 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:30:09pm

re: #746 3 wood

Please show me that real GDP is growing or employment is increasing.

You of all people know that will take some time, but the trends are all pretty hopeful, as is consumer confidence.

Optimism.

760 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:31:10pm

re: #758 Truck Monkey

Do you ever catch the Mecum Classic Auto auctions on HDTV theater channel? Had some real nice Avantis and Studebakers for sale on one show last week.

Never miss it, the 75K Avanti sale made my day.

761 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:31:45pm

re: #754 avanti

Count on it, I need more dealers. Here's my business model. If I find a car near you, I buy it, pay for any needed parts, you prep and detail it for ebay. You take some pictures, I take the risk of the buy, do the ebay listing, get paid and split the profit. I have one guy doing it full time in California, the others just weekends.

Ok, I'm your boy.

762 David Simon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:32:17pm

re: #755 The Shadow Do

Technically true of course. Can't have old farts filing discrimination suits and such.

Exactly my point. Talk about expensive.

763 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:33:04pm

re: #757 Killgore Trout

Eliminate the fun part? That's not open to negotiation.
;)

Whoever said it was?

764 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:33:17pm

re: #591 LudwigVanQuixote

They say he is a nut who falsifies his data, quote mines and otherwise acts like Behe.

Like Al Gore then?

765 kateca  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:33:51pm

re: #727 avanti

Bookmark your post, because I disagree with both you and 3wood. I am optimistic, I've been hearing gloom and doom for months from the right, and I don't buy it, but we'll see.

Did you buy it when all the Dem's said that Bush presided over the worst enonomy in 30 years?

Just curious. Things seem to have gotten a bit worse...

766 freetoken  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:34:14pm

re: #764 Desert Dog

Like Al Gore then?

Al Gore never claimed to be a scientist or that he was doing scientific research himself.

767 3 wood  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:34:18pm

re: #753 mich-again

And of course increasing our own domestic supply of oil would do that as well but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.

That's the best way to do it, but it's out of the question with this group in Washington.

With that, I'm off to bed.

Avanti, I hope you can find some evidence of growing GDP/increasing employment.

The way I read the numbers, well over 2 million jobs have now been destroyed since Obama took office and GDP is contracting.

Hope is not a viable economic policy.

Without that growth, it's not going to happen.

768 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:34:28pm

Oh.

769 John Neverbend  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:34:51pm

re: #737 freetoken

Back from the store... and even with chocolate fudge brownie ice cream the videos of Ms. Wright and Mr. Dawkins are unwatchable.

It will take several Guinnesses before I can watch it, but then my mind will be almost as glazed as Ms. Wright's. You're quite right, it's the earnestness that's the most egregious feature. I'm convinced that Dawkins would have had a more profitable experience discussing the same topic with that transparent-headed deep sea fish that we saw in an earlier post.

770 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:34:55pm

re: #761 The Shadow Do

Ok, I'm your boy.

It works the other way too. If you find a 409 SS Chevy near me at a good price, I'll do the wrenching for you.:)

771 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:35:17pm

re: #762 David Simon

Exactly my point. Talk about expensive.

They wack me, I will sue. That is my retirement plan. Hell of a deal. I never thought my life would end up like this. I guess I will have to blame George Bush.

772 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:35:54pm

re: #764 Desert Dog

Like Al Gore then?

Actually not. You see, when Gore says things about AGW, he is sometimes correct as opposed to Plimer who is uniformly wrong.

773 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:36:11pm

re: #756 MandyManners

What else are we not hearing about from the MFM?

What about the training camps in Connecticut?

Well?

774 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:36:50pm

re: #759 avanti

You of all people know that will take some time, but the trends are all pretty hopeful, as is consumer confidence.

Optimism.

27% is optimism? That is pretty optimistic of you think so.re: #766 freetoken

Al Gore never claimed to be a scientist or that he was doing scientific research himself.

No, he never claimed to be a scientist, but he presented his "theory" loaded with trumped up and outright false information and used scare tactics and hyperbole to make his point.

775 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:40:01pm

re: #765 kateca

Did you buy it when all the Dem's said that Bush presided over the worst enonomy in 30 years?

Just curious. Things seem to have gotten a bit worse...

He did, but I don't buy that it was all his fault. The GOP spent money that would make a liberal proud, but the banking and mortgage deal was a bipartisan screw up. Things did get worse for a month or two, but are improving slowly. The market is up 40% from the lows.

776 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:40:07pm

re: #603 Lincolntf

If at first you don't succeed...

fail, fail again!

777 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:40:17pm

re: #774 Desert Dog

No, he never claimed to be a scientist, but he presented his "theory" loaded with trumped up and outright false information and used scare tactics and hyperbole to make his point.

How about you scroll up and look at the links to MIT, Princeton, Columbia and UCSD. OK? Al Gore does not have tenure at any of those places.

778 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:40:40pm

11/16/09.

779 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:41:21pm

re: #772 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually not. You see, when Gore says things about AGW, he is sometimes correct as opposed to Plimer who is uniformly wrong.

Well, you are the professional physicist. I am a mere liberal art degree holder and businessman. Should we shut down modern society and start wearing SPF 10000?

I do not doubt that man has a great effect on the planet. Where the Global Warming/Climate Change people lose me is their solution.

Let's say that you are elected King of the World tomorrow. What would you do to stop this problem?

780 David Simon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:42:05pm

re: #771 The Shadow Do

They wack me, I will sue. That is my retirement plan. Hell of a deal. I never thought my life would end up like this. I guess I will have to blame George Bush.

They can whack you so long as they don't replace you with someone younger.

Not sure what you do for a living, but my firm just pulled off a successful age discrimination: We cut a bunch of whiny brats to 3 and 4 day work weeks (alas, my suggestion to fire a couple of the little shits wasn't accepted), and hired a geezer full time.

781 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:43:00pm

Hot-and-cold runniig staff.

782 Desert Dog  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:43:44pm

re: #777 LudwigVanQuixote

How about you scroll up and look at the links to MIT, Princeton, Columbia and UCSD. OK? Al Gore does not have tenure at any of those places.

Who said he has degrees? I didn't. So, you think An Inconvenient Truth is an accurate movie? Do you think that the oceans will rise 20-30-40 feet in our lifetime? Do you think that we are only a few years off from global catastrophe? Al Gore does...

783 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:46:16pm

re: #778 MandyManners

11/16/09.

What happens then?

784 avanti  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:46:56pm

re: #767 3 wood

That's the best way to do it, but it's out of the question with this group in Washington.

With that, I'm off to bed.

Avanti, I hope you can find some evidence of growing GDP/increasing employment.

The way I read the numbers, well over 2 million jobs have now been destroyed since Obama took office and GDP is contracting.

Hope is not a viable economic policy.

Without that growth, it's not going to happen.


3wood, I'm surprised to see you use a talking point. If we we're losing 700,000 jobs a month when Obama came in, did you expect growth the next month ? The job losses are going down every month just as they do in every recovery, but it's not a instant thing.
If the job loss numbers had gone up, than you could accuse the POTUS of destroying jobs, but the trend is reversing. BTW, I don't give Obama full credit for that, the economy always recovers.

785 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:49:03pm

re: #775 avanti

He did, but I don't buy that it was all his fault. The GOP spent money that would make a liberal proud, but the banking and mortgage deal was a bipartisan screw up. Things did get worse for a month or two, but are improving slowly. The market is up 40% from the lows.

A more realistic measure is people out of work, period. There is no spin on this. People are employed or they are not. Simple. The New Deal was extended misery and the Raw Deal we see now is more of the same. I know your confidence is unshakeable in the power of government control so this is no more than an observation. No need to reply.

786 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:49:08pm
787 The Shadow Do  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:51:06pm

re: #780 David Simon

They can whack you so long as they don't replace you with someone younger.

Not sure what you do for a living, but my firm just pulled off a successful age discrimination: We cut a bunch of whiny brats to 3 and 4 day work weeks (alas, my suggestion to fire a couple of the little shits wasn't accepted), and hired a geezer full time.

where do I send my resume?
/kidding

788 David Simon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:53:53pm

re: #775 avanti

He did, but I don't buy that it was all his fault. The GOP spent money that would make a liberal proud, but the banking and mortgage deal was a bipartisan screw up. Things did get worse for a month or two, but are improving slowly. The market is up 40% from the lows.

Are you aware that the market doubled from 1933-1936? Bear market rallies are the norm, not the anamoly.

789 freetoken  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:55:57pm

re: #786 retief_99

"this crap" is about whether our fellow Americans can think rationally.

790 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 8:59:36pm

re: #786 retief_99

Ok, we are arguing about this crap when someone is trying to destroy the healthcare of 250 million Americans.?

We talk about that, too. But its not the only thing going on.

791 retief_99  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 9:00:05pm

re: #789 freetoken

Any thing can be rationalized, analytical and critical thinking are the keys.

792 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 9:06:53pm
793 freetoken  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 9:08:05pm

re: #791 retief_99

... analytical and critical thinking are the keys.

Oh, I agree.

But, the likes of Ms Wright aren't even dealing with reality. She believes that "scientists" are conspiring to set themselves up as a religion... her statements around the 3:50 mark in the first video are about as muddle headed as one can get.

794 kateca  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 9:08:26pm

re: #759 avanti

You of all people know that will take some time, but the trends are all pretty hopeful, as is consumer confidence.

Optimism.

avanti. I do love optimism BUT: This Gallop poll might be deceiving. It was taken "in the first six months" of 2009. There is no breakdown by month. It's quite natural that many more people felt optomistic in the first 100 days. Even so, optimism only rose from 13 to 27% overall.

795 Ning The Merciless  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 9:23:39pm

I think that the problem in many cases with laws and court cases about evolution vs. creationism is that people who are too ignorant to understand the arguments are put in charge of making decisions. I only spent one year at college studying biology before I changed but even I seem vastly more qualified to understand these things than that Wright woman. Dawkins of course is mopping the floor with her and I can't believe how polite he is to her. I sat through four of the seven sections that I saw listed on YouTube and I came close to ramming an ice pick into my eyes to make it stop.

796 swamprat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 9:25:35pm

re: #793 freetoken

And yet, a video is being posted under the moniker "Richard Dawkins on teach the controversy",
where Dawkins apparently has manipulated the editing of the interview, to present her in an even more unfavorable light.
If Dawkins is the source, it will be hard to take him seriously. If he is not, he needs to clean this up, because it makes him look unscrupulous.

797 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 9:59:53pm

re: #779 Desert Dog

What I would do, please check out my 448. Also, please spare me the mock affronted thing. There is nothing wrong with holding a liberal arts degree and I am not putting anyone down. However, I am actually qualified to talk about the science. This is because I spent many years working very hard to learn it.

Now you can be angry at that, and I am sorry, but the science is against you.

re: #782 Desert Dog

Who said he has degrees? I didn't. So, you think An Inconvenient Truth is an accurate movie? Do you think that the oceans will rise 20-30-40 feet in our lifetime? Do you think that we are only a few years off from global catastrophe? Al Gore does...

Oh for crying out loud... The point of bringing up MIT, Princeton etc.. is that the scientists who are telling you that AGW is real are not Al Gore. Al Gore does not matter. I don't care about how much you hate him. It doesn't matter. He is not a scientist. He is not collecting the data.

Thousands of people with PhDs are doing that.

Also I did not say that Al Gore was right, I said that he is less wrong than Plimer.

798 freetoken  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 10:03:00pm

re: #796 swamprat

I'm not following you here.

If you mean this video:

Youtube Video

How does that translate to: "If Dawkins is the source, it will be hard to take him seriously. If he is not, he needs to clean this up, because it makes him look unscrupulous" ...?

799 freetoken  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 10:04:54pm

re: #797 ludwigvanquixote


Oh for crying out loud... The point of bringing up MIT, Princeton etc.. is that the scientists who are telling you that AGW is real are not Al Gore. Al Gore does not matter.

For all these years I've thought Al Gore was a politician... turns out he is, instead, a red herring.

800 swamprat  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 10:15:58pm

re: #798 freetoken

I'm not following you here.

If you mean this video:

Youtube Video

How does that translate to: "If Dawkins is the source, it will be hard to take him seriously. If he is not, he needs to clean this up, because it makes him look unscrupulous" ...?

Sorry. I was less than clear. When you look at the "quoted" interview (you can see it in the dawkins/wright interview part 7 at 1:15) it has been misrepresented. And really, there is no reason for it. It has part from the begining of part 2 at 1:13. part from part 7 at 1:15, and a sad, surprised look that doesn't show anywhere in any of the 7 sections. It is completely and totally bogus (the interview part).

801 Altermite  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 10:50:55pm

re: #624 Salamantis

Oh, c'mon; if all of the ice on the planet melted, the global sea level would only rise several feet. 7/8 of sea ice displaces water anyway.

There are significant portions of the world that are within a few feet of sea level.

Like the 160,000,000 people living in bangladesh

Yes, they could displace to Siberia or whatever, but massive population displacements usually end with a lot of chaos and people dying. Not to add that even once it warms, it can take around 500 years for soil to 'mature' properly, meaning that Siberia will remain a barren wasteland- it will merely be a slightly warmer wasteland.

802 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 10:53:23pm

A wise man once told me, 'control what you can control'.

It seems to me that science is doing that. They control what there is to control. Which is why technology is being so effective. Science is expanding etc.

Creationism, in all of its romance and wonder, is pretty out of our control if or if not it happened.

Just some basic thoughts.

803 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 11:12:02pm

re: #801 Altermite

There are significant portions of the world that are within a few feet of sea level.

Like the 160,000,000 people living in bangladesh

Yes, they could displace to Siberia or whatever, but massive population displacements usually end with a lot of chaos and people dying. Not to add that even once it warms, it can take around 500 years for soil to 'mature' properly, meaning that Siberia will remain a barren wasteland- it will merely be a slightly warmer wasteland.

If all the ice caps and glaciers melted, the oceans wouldn't rise nearly as fast as in the Day After Tomorrow sci-fi dystopia scenario We are talking fractions of inches per year; plenty of time to pack up your troubles in your old kit bag while keepin' on smilin'.

Meanwhile, the gradual temp rise would result in major liveable and arable land areas being added to our usable inventory, and both habitable land and crop yields would rise (and both are or will soon be direly needed).

804 Bill K.  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 11:35:45pm

Recent human evolution was an excellent example for Dawkins to have used. The intermediate stages between modern man and the ape family that evolved over a span of few million years have been exhaustively documented. The evidence is so compelling all you have to do is look at the skeletons, something that Wendy Wright seems loathe to do.

Dawkins had Wright over the barrel for most of the second video. It looked like she was starting to sweat and stammer and obviously she was trying to change the direction of the discussion and start psychoanalyzing the supporters of evolution.

However Dawkins blew the last part of the discussion when he fell into the trap Wright had set when he said that he wanted to present the facts to the children in school and "let them decide". This is exactly the concession Wright was looking for.

For one thing how are children, whose education is incomplete, going to decide what facts presented them are the right ones? They are not yet in the position to make these judgments. The best teaching methodology is to present the latest scientific facts and the theories to the students and the evidence that supports them. Evolution is high up on the hierarchical ladder of knowledge and is one of the last things that should be taught in science classrooms and not among the first. Bible stories and religious dogma do not fit this criteria and therefore have no place in the classroom.

Dawkins, who should know better, then appeals to authority, and religious authority at that, to try to escape the trap he finds himself in.
Wright's smug, self-congratulatory demeanor let's us know she's won. Dawkins should have stuck to the facts and not let Wright evade them.

805 ASU86PE  Wed, Aug 5, 2009 11:52:04pm

re: #804 Bill K.


You're Right. She owned him and the argument. He was red-faced; she was calm.


He even conceded three critical points: No speciation (5:20), no smooth transitionary critters(~10:00), and DNA of individuals(~15:00). Analytically speaking

PS. What happened to entropy? Or do we not talk about that anymore.

Later Lizards

806 amrafel  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 12:15:07am

"Stepford wife" -- that was a funny comment!
Dawkins could've really had Write over the barrel if he hadn't screwed up twice.
1. When Wright asked for proof of macroevolution (in a screwed up way, mind you: "show me the bones; all we have is pictures"), Dawkins said to go to the museum. What kind of stupid answer was that? Like a set of fossil candidates put in a chosen order would convince her?
2. Dawkins said that the modern textbooks have fixed the Haeckel embryo drawings. That answer is hardly satisfying. In March of 2000, Stephen Gould wrote the following, "We should... not be surprised that Haeckel's drawings entered nineteenth-century textbooks. But we do, I think, have the right to be both astonished and ashamed by the century of mindless recycling that has led to the persistence of these drawings in a large number, if not a majority, of modern textbooks! -- “Abscheulich!(Atrocious!),” Natural History. As late as 2003, three textbook publishers were still trying to use Haeckel-based drawings in books submitted for review during the biology textbook adoption process in Texas.

807 harpsicon  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 12:33:45am

re: #608 LudwigVanQuixote

Yet another of the whackos... You are really batting 1000 for the types of people you are digging up Sal. Do you care to bring Alister Crowley next?

Seriously, you want a cost benefit analysis...

OK

What is the value of Wall Street if Wall Street is under water?

Now hold on! Lomborg a whacko??

He got into this whole business because he was hissed off at some conservative claiming environmentalism was all hooey, and decided to use his skills as an academic statistician to disprove him.

But time and again he discovered that it was the alarmists who were misinterpreting the data, cherry-picking just the right time periods, etc. apparently for political ends. Then he got hissed off.

I slogged through his entire book, and he's not a whacko. I'm a magna cum laude in history of science from Harvard, and I can read this kind of thing intelligently. Lomborg is hardly a flamer or a nutjob pushing an agenda. It was the response to his book which was over the top, in truth.

You keep throwing Harvard, MIT, etc. at us, but these are political monocultures. Scientists are not immune to this sort of thing, and researchers find what they are looking for, and don't find what they're not looking for - especially in the modern era of grant-grubbing where what you're looking for better be interesting to the foundation guys holding the purse-strings.

I find your self-assurance and mischaracterization of people like Lomborg suspicious to say the least. Scientists, as a throng, have been off the mark before. When there's politics mixed in, and where the "solutions" proposed by self-appointed guardians of virtue are pretty much identical for both global warming now and global cooling then, my BS meter starts registering high readings.

808 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 12:54:31am

This was the TV version of Scientific American vs. The National Inquirer.
Ok, back to work.

809 idioma  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 3:56:39am

These people should not be allowed to receive flu shots.

810 Power Armored Lizardoid  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 4:26:59am

Glazed mind of a creationist, hmmm? So anyone who believes God created the Earth (and the rest of the time/space continuum) is a big dummy? Give me a break Charles. You want to be an atheist and a pro-evolution guy, great! That's your right. But please don't take the typical liberal tack of painting anyone who doesn't agree with your particular world view as an idiot, a maniac, or worse. You're better than that.

811 Fierce Guppy  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 5:02:03am

Evolutionary processes made human nature. Most philosophy deals with why and to what extent and to what end and in what context our potentialities set by our human nature should or ought to be utilized. Like so many atheists on the Left, Richard Dawkins is a philosophical void. He is aware that philosophy founded upon evolutionary processes is irrational and destructive, but is completely hopeless when it comes to offering an alternative that is founded on human nature and explains and fosters qualities of human nature that theists claim is God given such as benevolence, love, empathy, and compassion. Wendy Wright was making a ~moral~ argument against accepting TOE in saying that it necessarily leads to tyranny. Richard Dawkins lacks any structured philosophy by way of example that demonstrates otherwise. She won.

Now I can go to bed.

Tony.

812 idioma  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 5:24:31am

re: #810 Power Armored Lizardoid

Glazed mind of a creationist, hmmm? So anyone who believes God created the Earth (and the rest of the time/space continuum) is a big dummy? Give me a break Charles. You want to be an atheist and a pro-evolution guy, great! That's your right. But please don't take the typical liberal tack of painting anyone who doesn't agree with your particular world view as an idiot, a maniac, or worse. You're better than that.

The difference between accepting evolution as a fact, and believing in god as a creator, is that one is based on evidence, the other is not.

Care to guess which?

I'll give you a minute or two if you would like, I'll check back later.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In the absence of evidence you can only believe in something.

If put on trail for murder, would you want to be tried based upon the beliefs of others? Or would you prefer your accuser to produce evidence in a case against you?

I await your answer.

813 idioma  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 5:39:33am

re: #811 Fierce Guppy

Have you actually read any of his books to understand his stance on the issue of morality? Richard Dawkins is far from being a "void" as you put it. As an intelligent species we have a unique opportunity to escape from the cold uncaring nature of selection as a means to better ourselves. Instead of letting disease wipe out millions of humans (knowing that those that do survive were more fit), we instead use our knowledge of biological mechanisms (including evolution) to develop effective vaccinations, which save lives. Even those that are opposed to evolution science seem to have no trouble benefiting from medical advances.

"Like so many atheists on the Left, Richard Dawkins is a philosophical void."
Your argument is flawed. There are hundreds of atheists that have contributed tremendously to the benefit of mankind in just the last few decades.

"He is aware that philosophy founded upon evolutionary processes is irrational and destructive, but is completely hopeless when it comes to offering an alternative that is founded on human nature and explains and fosters qualities of human nature that theists claim is God given such as benevolence, love, empathy, and compassion. "

Which god are you referring to? The god Allah? Yahweh? Buddha? Vishnu? Thor? Apollo? Zeus?

Not all gods are created equally, all have their merits and flaws. I'd wager to guess that you too are an atheist, but an atheist that makes just ONE exemption. Choosing not to believe in any of the above gods except for one is a logical fallacy, since all of the above have an equal amount of evidence to support their existence, including millions of followers, holy texts, rituals, churches, documented cases of miracles, etc.

You might not like evolution as a fact, but that would not change the existence of the strong evidence in favor of it. In order to combat evolution, you would need to produce strong evidence which contradicts it, and the opportunity to do such is available to all theists.

Aside from saying that she did not believe in evolution, she did not produce any contrary evidence or build a strong case against it's validity.

That's because it would be equally difficult to refute evolution as it would to refute a round earth.

814 idioma  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 5:41:41am

re: #812 idioma

*trial* not *trail*

PIMF

815 idioma  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 5:56:51am

re: #805 ASU86PE

The entropy argument goes something like this: "a law of thermodynamics states that new information cannot be created out of nothing, and within a closed system, order trends toward chaos, evolution contradicts this observable property of physics!"

Entropy applies to closed systems. The earth is not a closed system. This argument is flawed and easily dismissed by anyone with an elementary understanding of biology, chemistry, and astronomy.

The earth is bombarded by cosmic rays, dust from nearby objects in our solar system. This planet is subject to fluctuations in temperature. Atmospheric content is in constant flux, as Ultraviolet radiation forms violent chemical reactions. Electrical storms slam into the earth's soil as large static charges in the clouds release huge amounts of electricity. The earths core is an amalgamation of changing molecular structures as elements are placed under overwhelming pressure and heat. You could not have a more open system than the earth, entropy is best observed in a vacuum, a sterile lab environment deliberately constructed by humans to remove all of these factors.

You either willfully ignore this, because you are being dishonest; or you were not informed.

But now you are.

Do you still want to talk about entropy?

816 keithgabryelski  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 6:29:51am

What bugs me is the (nearly) constant incompetence of Dawkins in this video to prevent Wright from changing subjects in addition to his (nearly) consistent failure to answer questions succinctly, completely, and find agreement before moving to a new subject.

WRIGHT: There is no evidence for macro evolution.
DAWKINS: That is incorrect. There is plenty. DNA, fossils, and lab observation.
WRIGHT: we only see paper drawings
DAWKINS: that is not true, but let's bookmark that observation and finish our discussion. Do you agree that fossils, DNA, and lab observations show evidence for evolution. Why not?

It's not like Wright brought up any new arguments against evolution. Every single argument she brought up is something that could be disputed by reading the FAQ of talk.origins.evolution

817 drcordell  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 6:51:42am

This is genuinely painful to watch. The fact that there is roughly 30% of our country that believes this garbage is horrendous. No wonder all of our doctors now come from overseas.

818 SecondComing  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 6:53:32am

re: #488 scion9

I was a skeptic, but am now agnostic on the issue. My scientific background is very basic. Is there one source/book above others that you would recommend to laymen on the subject?

This statement fits me to a T.

Now I'm going to look to see if he responded with a suggestion on a book.

819 SecondComing  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 7:05:54am

re: #539 scion9

I used to go camping within spitting distant of this throughout my youth. Yes in my backyard.

I used to live with this in my backyard. Yes, we could actually see it up close from our yard.

820 gadlaw  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 7:26:00am

Smiling, vacant eyed zealots - always scary. I wish more critical thinking and less religious indoctrination was going on in the world, we'd have fewer nonthinking zombies out there like this woman.

821 SecondComing  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 7:28:22am

re: #609 Killgore Trout

I'm very skeptical of these health care reforms. Doing this in the midst of an economic crisis is not the best time to tackle this. I'm also very concerned with the unintended consequences and things they haven't thought through yet. However, the weakness of the counter arguments makes me think that maybe it's not going to be too bad (maybe, or something). If they right has to rely on conspiracy theories to oppose this then I have no choice but to ignore them. I guess I'll just hang on and hope for the best.

I'm skeptical of the same thing.

And I'm worried that they've thought this through as well as they did on closing guantanmo, and the cash for clunkers program.

822 SecondComing  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 7:44:23am

re: #663 Lincolntf

Plenty of returning Vets who could use a hand up when they get home. I'm sure more than a few of them would be thrilled to get a "clunker" when they got off the plane.
But that wouldn't serve Gaia, so it's a non-starter.

What and turn them into car bombs? Those vets are nuts and just waiting to go off. /sarc

823 freetoken  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 7:48:25am

re: #249 FrogMarch

Where?

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you...

Search the web for Plimer - he and his book are all over it.

Here is one example:

No science in Plimer's primer


[...]

Plimer probably didn't expect an astronomer to review his book. I couldn't help noticing on page120 an almost word-for-word reproduction of the abstract from a well-known loony paper entitled "The Sun is a plasma diffuser that sorts atoms by mass". This paper argues that the sun isn't composed of 98 per cent hydrogen and helium, as astronomers have confirmed through a century of observation and theory, but is instead similar in composition to a meteorite.

It is hard to understate the depth of scientific ignorance that the inclusion of this information demonstrates. It is comparable to a biologist claiming that plants obtain energy from magnetism rather than photosynthesis.

[...]

And so forth. Plimer is an ideologue (and nutcase, if he really does believe the sun is composed of the same material as meteorites).

Save your money.

824 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 8:03:35am

re: #192 SixDegrees

Someone really ought to write a book on this topic and flesh out the movement's history. My own feeling is that the phosphorescent stupidity that emanates from creationism today is a relatively recent development, although it may have roots that extend back fairly far.

Someone did. Roland L. Numbers, The Creationists: The Evolution of Scientific Creationism

Read it, it's a very good book that documents how creationists and creationism evolved.

825 Land Shark  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 8:14:03am

Arguments between Creationists and Evolutionists are a dead end. One is science, the other is faith.

While I'm a Creationist who believes Evolution is God's creation, my problem with my fellow Creationists is this lunacy of wanting to force a matter of faith into the science classroom. That is the crux of the problem people have with Creationists. If they were content to believe what they believe and leave science class to science, none of this would be an issue. But as long as Creationists try to get their faith taught in science class, severely undermining the whole scientific method, people will be up in arms over it. As they should. I don't want Creationism/I.D. taught in science class were it does not belong.

826 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 8:17:17am

re: #491 LudwigVanQuixote

We will certainly see if your well justified pessimism bears out. If it does, we'll certainly pay for it, much like WWII.

Ludwig, no matter what side you stand on the issue, you've shown yourself to be a catastrophist and a panic inducer here with your recent comments. I don't really give a damn anymore what you have to say about much because you are starting to sound like Edgar Cayce or Nostradamus. I have no time for panic mongers.

827 Throbert McGee  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 8:19:51am

Meh -- Way to shoot fish in a barrel, Dick.

I'd be a lot more impressed if Dawkins would deign to engage in a face-to-face debate with a theistic evolutionist like Ken Miller. (And if he already has, I stand corrected.) And it would be REALLY cool if he'd agree to a televised argument with Trey Parker and Matt Stone, instead of airily feigning utter mystification as to what point they were attempting to make in the "Go God Go" episode of South Park.

What we see in these video clips here, I'm afraid, are TWO fundamentalist reactionaries, not one.

828 Land Shark  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 8:29:00am

re: #827 Throbert McGee

That's one of the things I like about South Park, Parker and Stone aren't afraid to tackle an issue from every side. They poke fun at fundamentalists of all stripes, be they political, religious, scientific or what ever.

829 Thinking Mans Republican  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 9:43:07am

Love Dawkin's observation about addressing "gaps" in the fossil record...every time creationists ask to be shown a transitional fossil that bridges the gap between 2 others, and evolutionists present it, the creationists claim that there are now 2 gaps...

LOL

Of course this nutjob doesn't even acknowledge the fossils, claiming all she has seen are illustrations. Hon, you actually have to GO to the museum

830 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 10:13:36am

Dawkins might as well be talking to a tree stump.

831 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 10:25:31am

Richard is Right, Wright is Wrong.
/sorry, couldn't resist!

832 Charles Johnson  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 10:52:57am

re: #805 ASU86PE

YHe even conceded three critical points: No speciation (5:20), no smooth transitionary critters(~10:00), and DNA of individuals(~15:00).

Obviously, you were watching a different video than I was, because Dawkins conceded absolutely nothing.

833 Bill K.  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 12:15:25pm

#805 ASU86PE

My point is that Dawkins had the upper hand on the oleaginous Wright until he uttered the words “let the children decide”. At this point he gave up trying to pin down Wright with the facts and resorted to the argument from authority. The argument from authority is bad enough but using religious authorities is one step worse.

To reiterate my position about letting “the children decide” among contradictory claims and whether the facts presented are real or bogus is tantamount to child abuse. At the level of complexity of the science of evolution most children simply do not have the necessary knowledge to make an intelligent decision. Children need to start out with the basics of science and its history in junior high and gradually increase their knowledge so by the time they are in the 11th or 12th grade they might be ready to understand the facts presented and the evidence that supports evolution. At this time it might be proper to discuss whether or not the controversy surrounding evolution is real or not.

At no time should creationism be taught as fact or as an alternate theory to evolution. It is nothing of the sort. As Wright demonstrated the creationists have no facts or evidence to offer and resort to the old standbys of Bible stories and emotionalism.

834 Aye Pod  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 3:45:01pm

Anyone else get the feeling that woman was actually some sort of animatronic device? "Raise head. Press 'smile'. Initiate talking point no.140. Press 'smile'."

835 Aye Pod  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 3:47:57pm

re: #827 Throbert McGee

Meh -- Way to shoot fish in a barrel, Dick.

I'd be a lot more impressed if Dawkins would deign to engage in a face-to-face debate with a theistic evolutionist like Ken Miller. (And if he already has, I stand corrected.) And it would be REALLY cool if he'd agree to a televised argument with Trey Parker and Matt Stone, instead of airily feigning utter mystification as to what point they were attempting to make in the "Go God Go" episode of South Park.

What we see in these video clips here, I'm afraid, are TWO fundamentalist reactionaries, not one.

I suspect he would win Matt and Trey over rather easily. They are great, but they do have one or two basic misconceptions about atheism that could be cleared up by Dawkins in seconds rather than minutes.

836 Morganfrost  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 5:12:58pm

Philosophies built on "evolution" lead to horrific abuses against human beings? I reckon that, if only we maintain a society based on the worship of a creator, we'll have peace, love and mutual respect among all humans... once we've burned, stoned or put to the sword all heretics, infidels, apostates and shirkers.

837 ronsfi  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 9:20:52pm

The second one ended just before I jammed the pencils in my ears. Thankfully.

838 el polacko  Thu, Aug 6, 2009 11:15:24pm

sweet bleedin' jeebus ! have to hand it to dawkins for keeping his cool... i would have throttled that grinning lunatic. she never actually listens to what he has to say except to find jump-off phrases for her talking points. scary stuff.

839 Fierce Guppy  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:22:01am

re: #813 idioma

Have you actually read any of his books to understand his stance on the issue of morality? Richard Dawkins is far from being a "void" as you put it. As an intelligent species we have a unique opportunity to escape from the cold uncaring nature of selection as a means to better ourselves. Instead of letting disease wipe out millions of humans (knowing that those that do survive were more fit), we instead use our knowledge of biological mechanisms (including evolution) to develop effective vaccinations, which save lives. Even those that are opposed to evolution science seem to have no trouble benefiting from medical advances.


So philosophy, the motive force which drives human action, that forms the character of people and has enormous influence on how individuals perceive themselves, the world and their place in it, and which defines morality and sets out moral principles to guide individuals in making choices, and that determines whether we can know anything for sure or, if so, how we know it, and which defines the fundamentals upon which political institutions are founded, and sows the seeds for a nation's prosperity or destruction, -- all this comes from Mr Dawkin's medicine cabinet? No, it does not. He is a philosophical void.


"Like so many atheists on the Left, Richard Dawkins is a philosophical void."
Your argument is flawed. There are hundreds of atheists that have contributed tremendously to the benefit of mankind in just the last few decades.


That any particular atheist has benefited mankind in some way says ~nothing~ about whether or not he or she is a philosophical void. Dawkins has made a great contribution by making the understanding of TOE accessible to the layman. He still is a philosophical void. The man can't even counter a spurious moral argument by a creationist that the TOE is destructive to human societies compared to ones that accept her "loving" deity.


"He is aware that philosophy founded upon evolutionary processes is irrational and destructive, but is completely hopeless when it comes to offering an alternative that is founded on human nature and explains and fosters qualities of human nature that theists claim is God given such as benevolence, love, empathy, and compassion. "

Which god are you referring to? The god Allah? Yahweh? Buddha? Vishnu? Thor? Apollo? Zeus?


Well, pick a god. Any god! Dawkin's handicap is a lack of a philosophical foundation. A lack philosophical foundation leaves one helpless to counter the arguments of those who ~do~ have a philosophical foundation no matter how stupid, destructive, and irrational their ideas are.


Not all gods are created equally, all have their merits and flaws. I'd wager to guess that you too are an atheist, but an atheist that makes just ONE exemption. Choosing not to believe in any of the above gods except for one is a logical fallacy, since all of the above have an equal amount of evidence to support their existence, including millions of followers, holy texts, rituals, churches, documented cases of miracles, etc.


By definition there are ~no~ exemptions for an atheist and I am an atheist. Also I would not lift holy texts, number of followers, etc, to the status of evidence for the existence of Deity.

Tony.

840 Fierce Guppy  Fri, Aug 7, 2009 1:23:17am

re: #813 idioma


You might not like evolution as a fact, but that would not change the existence of the strong evidence in favor of it


I do like the fact of evolution. No, I have never been a Solipsist. On the start of your journey into philosophy you might like to find out what one is.


In order to combat evolution, you would need to produce strong evidence which contradicts it, and the opportunity to do such is available to all theists.


Creationists can't produce evidence to contradict TOE, so they use other forms of argument to smear TOE that a philosophical void like Richard cannot hope to undercut.


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