Barney Frank Surrenders to the Paulians

Politics • Views: 7,020

Ron Paul’s star continues to rise like a bad moon: Frank Said to Back Broader Fed Audits.

Rep. Ron Paul said he has a commitment from the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, Barney Frank, to advance the Texas Republican’s legislation opening the Federal Reserve to broader federal audits.

In an interview Friday, Mr. Paul said Mr. Frank agreed to allow a vote on the bill and to work on language that would allow the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, to audit the Fed’s monetary-policy operations. While details are unresolved, the discussions increase the likelihood that some version of Mr. Paul’s bill will pass the House.

“Barney told me, ‘It’s going to come. You’re going to get what you want,’ ” Mr. Paul said. “We’re going to have some hearings and we’ll get a vote.”

UPDATE at 8/31/09 11:00:53 am:

If you think auditing the Fed might not be a bad idea, I suggest you read this: Auditing the Fed Is Economic Suicide.

And please note that Ron Paul has been completely open about the fact that he sees this proposal as just the first step in a wider plan to abolish the Federal Reserve entirely and return to the gold standard. The whole purpose of the legislation is to go on a fishing expedition, and come up with something they can portray as a reason to push their more extreme plans.

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853 comments
1 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:35:40am

It's the end of the world!

2 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:35:54am

Of course Barney Frank would pander to Ron Paul. He makes us look bad.

3 Bob Dillon  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:36:27am

Why do I think some "cloak room" deals have just been made?

4 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:36:49am

If politics makes strange bedfellows, I don't want to be in the same universe with these two.

5 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:36:58am

Ron paul is the source on this? I hope he's wrong.

6 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:37:05am

Paul may be nuts, but what, specifically, is wrong with broader Fed audits? What legitimate reason is there to oppose transparency in this regard?

7 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:37:21am

There are terms for politicians like Barney Frank. His roommate used to run such an operation out of Frank's house.

8 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:37:29am
Mr. Frank told a town-hall meeting this month that the measure to audit the Fed would be incorporated into broader financial regulation and "probably" pass the House in October.

"We will subject them to a complete audit," Mr. Frank said at that meeting. He also said Mr. Paul "agrees that we don't want to have the audit appear as if it is influencing monetary policy."

Aw- crap.

9 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:37:52am

re: #7 Honorary Yooper

There are terms for politicians like Barney Frank. His roommate used to run such an operation out of Frank's house.

A home-based business?

///

10 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:37:59am

Paul says he "has a commitment" from Barney Frank.

Ron Paul does not understand Barney Frank.

11 scrubjay  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:38:33am

What is wrong with a good idea, even if it comes from someone of whom you disapprove? The Fed should be subject to public scrutiny.

12 davinvalkri  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:38:34am

re: #4 Ward Cleaver

If politics makes strange bedfellows, I don't want to be in the same universe with these two.

I think the political continuum just became a mobius strip. Yikes.

13 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:38:42am

Last I heard, there were 276 congress-critters signed up as co-sponsors. I think that was the number, anyway.

14 Athens Runaway  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:39:25am

re: #13 Pianobuff

Last I heard, there were 276 congress-critters signed up as co-sponsors. I think that was the number, anyway.

It's a conspiracy.

15 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:39:54am

The idea makes sense to me, regardless of who the champion is.

16 JohnnyReb  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:39:59am

re: #13 Pianobuff

Last I heard, there were 276 congress-critters signed up as co-sponsors. I think that was the number, anyway.

I read the same thing last week.

17 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:40:16am

Subject them to a wider audit. Interesting. Apparently TARP, which was a Bush-instituted policy has turned a $4 billion profit. Does that mean that Bush was right or should get that credit? Naw.

In the meantime, when will Congress actually engage in the kind of oversight over its existing obligations and take appropriate action on Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security all of which have massive deficits. Where are the audits for those? Where is the demand for accountability and fiscal responsibility?

Instead, we get demands for still more laws passed, ignoring those obligations previously created and the ensuing red tape.

And who benefits from this latest bunch? Ron Paul.

18 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:40:46am

Auditing the Fed Is Economic Suicide.

19 wee fury  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:40:54am

Audit would show

20 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:41:19am

re: #11 scrubjay

What is wrong with a good idea, even if it comes from someone of whom you disapprove? The Fed should be subject to public scrutiny.

Not really. The Fed's independence is why it works as well as it does. I think the Fed could actually do well with more independence, not less.

21 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:41:32am

Ron Paul's campaign to audit the Fed is just the first step in a wider plan to abolish it entirely, by the way.

22 cman70  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:41:49am

I'm not a Paulian, but I was wondering why this is a bad thing?

23 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:42:05am

It's a congressional power-grab. I would expect most congress-critters to sign on, until their smarter constituents talk them out of it. Right now they are mostly hearing from the Tea Party contingent.

24 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:42:06am

re: #10 karmic_inquisitor

Paul says he "has a commitment" from Barney Frank.

Ron Paul does not understand Barney Frank.

Right or left, if you do not understand the expression 'put not your trust in princes', you should get out of politics.

25 chicagodudewhotrades  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:42:17am

While I dislike Ron Paul and his views, what is so wrong about a review and audit of Federal Reserve monetary policy? Last time Bernake was up on the hill giving testimony he didn't seem to do a good job (in my opinion) of explaining some of the loans the fed had given to other central banks. The Fed has incredible power and tons of money (our money) at their disposal. The occassional in-depth review won't kill anyone

26 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:42:44am
Nearly two-thirds of the House has co-sponsored Mr. Paul's bill. Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke opposes the bill as written, saying it would compromise the Fed's ability to set interest rates free of political interference. "A perceived loss of monetary-policy independence could raise fears about future inflation, leading to higher long-term interest rates and reduced economic and financial stability," Mr. Bernanke testified last month.

I'm thinking Mr Bernanke is right. Congress can't even deal with their own finances, we want them in the Fed?

Again- this bill is shameless on the part of ron paul and the others in Congress should be likewise ashamed of themselves. The fiscal issue that needs addressing is THEM, not the Federal Reserve. Audit Congress- the bunch of asshats. They'd rather play political smoke and mirrors, have the electorate think the problem is something else, than take a good hard look at themselves, how they spend our tax dollars, and behave themselves. This is all an attempt to keep us off Congress' back about fiscal restraint on their part.

27 realwest  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:42:48am

Frank and Paul = Perfect together! I'm sorry y'all I sense that this is potentially important, but I don't take Paul seriously - perhaps I should take him more seriously than I do - but just the idea of Frank and Paul together is humorous to me!

28 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:42:50am

re: #4 Ward Cleaver

If politics makes strange bedfellows, I don't want to be in the same universe with these two.

BRAIN BLEACH!

29 Racer X  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:42:54am

Well, Ron Paul is a gynecologist, and Barney is a, well, I'm not going to use the P word.

30 cronus  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:43:13am

Isn't it Ron Paul's stated desire to "End the Fed"? I'm certain upon learning the info he seeks he will provide his followers and the country a sober assessment of the information and won't engage in any demagoguery.

31 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:43:31am

Auditing the Fed Is Economic Suicide.

32 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:43:54am

re: #9 Ward Cleaver

A home-based business?

///


FTFY

33 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:44:03am

re: #18 Charles

Auditing the Fed Is Economic Suicide.

Very interesting. Just a question, but isn't this the exact sort of thing we're currently seeing with Obama? Or have I just been hearing rumors about printing money?

34 Athens Runaway  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:44:05am

re: #22 cman70

Opening up the black box will cause the magic smoke to escape, and the economic Underwear Gnomes will kill us all.

///

35 realwest  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:44:19am

re: #30 cronus
Well if we would just go back to the Gold Standard we wouldn't need the Fed.
/// extremely heavy.

36 jcm  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:44:30am

And Barney enjoyed it...

37 jcm  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:45:09am

re: #35 realwest

Reply to your question about WEA, the Gov. and AG ... two threads back.

38 davinvalkri  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:45:43am

To everybody who wants to know "what's wrong with the audit": in theory, not much, but then in theory, the audit would be apolitical. As such an audit would inevitably be run by politicolos, it probably wouldn't end well for the financiers...

39 jcm  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:45:51am

re: #35 realwest

Well if we would just go back to the Gold Standard we wouldn't need the Fed.
/// extremely heavy.

That argument has no currency!

40 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:46:12am

Meanwhile Obama is actually working to expand the Fed's powers. I feel pretty certain he'll veto this if it passes.

41 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:46:48am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile Obama is actually working to expand the Fed's powers. I feel pretty certain he'll veto this if it passes.

I doubt it will make it through the Senate.

42 El fantasma de General Pinochet  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:46:50am

¿Ron Paul es un marica dominante? ¿Quién sabía?

43 Neutral President  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:46:57am

re: #6 Cato the Elder

Paul may be nuts, but what, specifically, is wrong with broader Fed audits? What legitimate reason is there to oppose transparency in this regard?

Because this is part of Luap Nor's wedge strategy to mainstream conspiracy theory kookonomics and put us on the road to going back to the Gold Standard. Regardless of whether a legitimate audit of the Federal Reserve is a good idea, we shouldn't be feeding this troll and his dishonest audit desires.

44 Buck  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:47:10am

OT:

Study shines light on link between climate change and sun.

I know, I know... greenhouse gasses by humans are to blame... This is not up for debate...I get it...

BUT if we are just learning about stuff like this now... Who knows what is still to come?

45 Ojoe  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:48:00am

The Fed manages the money supply so it fits to the changes in the economy.

46 Athens Runaway  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:48:01am

re: #39 jcm

That argument has no currency!

Sounds like he hit a tender spot with his argument!

47 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:48:23am

re: #18 Charles

Thank you for this, I will read it. This is something I don't want to be against just because Paul is nuts. BTW, the same holds true for some of Beck's recent stories. He is nuts. The idea of an Oligarchy is nuts. Many of Obama's advisers and their ideas and connections? Also crazy and currently in power.

48 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:48:46am

Ron Paul's stated desire is to 'End the country'..

49 El fantasma de General Pinochet  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:48:47am

re: #44 Buck

OT:

Study shines light on link between climate change and sun.

I know, I know... greenhouse gasses by humans are to blame... This is not up for debate...I get it...

Sí, según Luis Van Quijote, santo patrón de la iglesia de Al Gore.

50 JohnnyReb  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:49:32am

re: #48 Diego

Ron Paul's stated desire is to 'End the country'..

Link?

51 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:49:38am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile Obama is actually working to expand the Fed's powers. I feel pretty certain he'll veto this if it passes.

I certainly hope he'll take the opinion of the Chairman seriously. Bernanke is right- we don't want monetary policy politicized any more than it already is from Congress.

52 Cato the Elder  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:49:56am

re: #43 ArchangelMichael

Because this is part of Luap Nor's wedge strategy to mainstream conspiracy theory kookonomics and put us on the road to going back to the Gold Standard. Regardless of whether a legitimate audit of the Federal Reserve is a good idea, we shouldn't be feeding this troll and his dishonest audit desires.

OK, I'll buy that.

53 3 wood  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:50:02am

You absolutely do not want Congress exerting influence over the Fed on monetary policy. They will end up using the audit as a weapon to intimidate the Fed to do their political bidding.

Once you get the discount rate and the money supply set by politicians, it's show over.

54 davinvalkri  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:50:17am

re: #46 Athens Runaway

Sounds like he hit a tender spot with his argument!

All your fears about the gold standard are inflated!
/that's right...right?

55 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:50:22am

The whole "audit the Fed" thing is a wedge strategy to move to a gold standard.

The Fed has a huge set of responsibilities on its plate - it must keep a complex and intertwined international banking system (one that is based entirely on trust) stable. While it is supposed to only keep the US banking system stable, we are a debtor nation that engages in substantial export activity. An ideological Fed that limits its banking "dealings" to these shores and wants gold as collateral for all transactions provide an extremely stable path to profound and prolonged poverty.

Innovation and expansion in an economy depends on credit and lending Ever wonder why petro-dollar rich Muslim autocracies can't grow their economies beyond commodities and consumption? Lending and borrowing are Haram and the velocity of money is therefore severely crimped, limiting how and where their economies grow. They can't innovate at competitive speed, so the don't innovate.

Ours is an information economy. We must have constant innovation to supply the export growth we must have to keep our standard of living.

"Audit the Fed" is intended to provide enough details of how the Fed props up different players with things like overnight spot loans that would make for plenty of populist "red meat" with which to attack the existence of the Fed.

We need the Fed. And the Fed does things that are hard to explain.

What we don't need is the Rushdoony / Rockwell economy that imagines that we will never have inflation and a movie with a candy bar will cost 25 cents again if we only go back to a gold standard.

56 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:50:27am

I didn't make a big deal out of this one because it seemed like an innocent gaff. It gets worse...

GOP Rep. Behind "Great White Hope" Remark Voted For Bill With Same Phrase

Rep. Lynn Jenkins (R-Kan.) took a bit of heat a few weeks ago for suggesting the GOP needed a "great white hope" to take on President Barack Obama in the next election.

The Kansas Republican backtracked from her remarks soon thereafter, insisting that she hadn't really understood the racial implications of the statement.

Alas, The Ottawa (Kans.) Herald finds one reason to doubt Jenkins's excuse. A month ago, the freshman lawmaker supported a resolution that included the very phrase "great white hope" in a historical context that made clear its origin.


Ugh.

57 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:50:28am

The entire point of Ron Paul's bill is to go on a fishing expedition through the Fed's records, to find something -- anything -- that can be used to justify more extreme measures. And when politicians go fishing, they always catch something.

58 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:50:46am

re: #22 cman70

I'm not a Paulian, but I was wondering why this is a bad thing?

Because Congress' monetary policy is the problem, not the Fed.

59 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:50:48am

re: #57 Charles

The entire point of Ron Paul's bill is to go on a fishing expedition through the Fed's records, to find something -- anything -- that can be used to justify more extreme measures. And when politicians go fishing, they always catch something.

Even if they have to fudge some stuff to get there.

60 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:50:54am

How many folks see the Fed policies over the years as being a "major" contributor to the recent economic problems we have been experiencing so far? (down-ding for not major; up-ding for major).

61 Athens Runaway  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:51:31am

re: #60 Pianobuff

How many folks see the Fed policies over the years as being a "major" contributor to the recent economic problems we have been experiencing so far? (down-ding for not major; up-ding for major).

Someone's fishing for karma... :P

62 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:51:48am

re: #53 3 wood

You absolutely do not want Congress exerting influence over the Fed on monetary policy. They will end up using the audit as a weapon to intimidate the Fed to do their political bidding.

Once you get the discount rate and the money supply set by politicians, it's show over.

What's to be done, as it looks done. Isn't this going to pass?

63 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:51:49am

re: #50 JohnnyReb

Link?

Sorry, I refuse to link to his nuttiness..

64 Bob Dillon  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:52:06am

re: #6 Cato the Elder

Paul may be nuts, but what, specifically, is wrong with broader Fed audits? What legitimate reason is there to oppose transparency in this regard?

None. But it does open up potential for back room deals - horse trading and various other forms of shell games and nepotism.

Ah - my level of trust for anyone in D.C. or politics in general is at an all time low.

65 El fantasma de General Pinochet  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:52:50am

Si usted quiere saber lo que digo, el babelfish es su amigo.

66 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:53:01am

Congress can't even balance their own budget, we want to let them audit others?!

67 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:53:13am

re: #48 Diego

Ron Paul's stated desire is to 'End the country'..

Yippee! Urbanization for everybody!
///

68 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:53:13am

re: #31 Charles

That is a truly frightening scenario. Given Obama's pattern of extending executive control, congress's congenital instinct to control everything it can get it's grubby hands on, and the GOP's insane lurch into Paulin orbit, it seems likely this bill will pass.

Then watch out.

69 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:53:30am

re: #66 Sharmuta

Congress can't even balance their own budget, we want to let them audit others?!

It'd be like giving a shopaholic a blank check.

70 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:53:47am

re: #61 Athens Runaway

Someone's fishing for karma... :P

negative karma... but I thought that might happen.

71 davinvalkri  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:53:50am

re: #65 El fantasma de General Pinochet

Si usted quiere saber lo que digo, el babelfish es su amigo.

"If you want to know what I'm saying, Babelfish is your friend?" What? What does this have to do with anything?

72 Athens Runaway  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:53:56am

re: #54 davinvalkri

All your fears about the gold standard are inflated!
/that's right...right?

I'll give you credit where it's due, you're very good with your coinage.

73 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:54:15am

re: #44 Buck

There's so much we don't know, and to assign one cause the sole blame is pure folly.

74 MJ  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:54:16am

I think the Democrats would be better off if the voted to open the
Charles Rangel Accountability Office.

75 J.D.  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:54:29am

re: #70 Pianobuff

negative karma... but I thought that might happen.

Sorry, but you asked.

76 Neutral President  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:54:31am

re: #53 3 wood

You absolutely do not want Congress exerting influence over the Fed on monetary policy. They will end up using the audit as a weapon to intimidate the Fed to do their political bidding.

Once you get the discount rate and the money supply set by politicians, it's show over.

That's why I just facepalm every time a Paulian starts hand wringing over the fact that Congress doesn't control monetary policy. My response to that, if given at all, is usually: "Are you out of your fucking mind? You think things are bad now just give that power to Congress and see what happens."

77 El fantasma de General Pinochet  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:54:49am

re: #56 Killgore Trout

Necesitamos sí un " gran hope blanco"; para tomar en Obama. ¡Un gran tiburón blanco, con los dientes!

78 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:55:10am

re: #75 J.D.

Sorry, but you asked.

Quite all right. I'm curious.

79 Racer X  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:55:14am

Why someone needs to at least look at the Fed once in a while.

Alan Grayson (High Quality Version): Is Anyone Minding the Store at the Federal Reserve?

Youtube Video
80 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:55:14am

re: #69 thedopefishlives

It'd be like giving a shopaholic a blank check.

An excellent analogy.

81 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:55:18am

re: #44 Buck

Boil that dust-speck, Boil that dust-speck!

82 Rancher  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:55:25am

Why is this necessary? The Fed is supposed to be independent especially when it comes to policy. This is similar to the investigation of the CIA because the LLL didn't like Bush's policy. They want to end the CIA, Paul wants to end the Fed.

In the interview, Mr. Paul -- whose book, "End the Fed," will be published next month -- said he doesn't want the audits to interfere with monetary policy.


For some reason I doubt that Mr. Paul.

83 srb1976  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:55:52am

re: #65 El fantasma de General Pinochet

Si usted quiere saber lo que digo, el babelfish es su amigo.

actually, you're proving that I remember more high school spanish than I thought I did...thanks!

84 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:56:08am

re: #47 Spenser (with an S)

Thank you for this, I will read it. This is something I don't want to be against just because Paul is nuts. BTW, the same holds true for some of Beck's recent stories. He is nuts. The idea of an Oligarchy is nuts. Many of Obama's advisers and their ideas and connections? Also crazy and currently in power.

I have a different take on it. Ron Paul does not get the benefit of the doubt from me. Anything he advocates should be treated with suspicion.

85 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:56:12am

Barney Frank Surrenders to the Paulians

mustresist

Where's Kirk?

86 davinvalkri  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:56:38am

re: #77 El fantasma de General Pinochet

We need a "great white hope" to take on Obama; a great white shark with teeth. Okay, seriously, what the heck is wrong with you?

87 Athens Runaway  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:56:41am

re: #77 El fantasma de General Pinochet

Necesitamos sí un "esperanza blanco grande"; para tomar en Obama. ¡Un gran tiburón blanco, con los dientes!

FTFY.

88 Racer X  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:57:03am

re: #85 MandyManners

Barney Frank Surrenders to the Paulians

mustresist

Where's Kirk?

In bed.

89 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:57:40am

re: #84 Charles

Anything he advocates should be treated with suspicion

And perhaps several bricks and some mortar..

91 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:57:49am

The Ronulans are a weird breed. But let's be honest, the unstable and strange have infected the Dems (currently in power in the White house), The Republicans, and the Libretarians.

All of the parties need a Flea and Louse bath. the craving for Power has caused this current mess. Time to clean it up

92 Athens Runaway  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:57:50am

re: #88 Racer X

In bed.

With Counselor Troi. Now there's a space babe.

93 vxbush  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:58:06am

The assumption here is that the Fed isn't being audited. It is. See the link Charles has posted at least twice to see that a professional firm has audited the Fed:

Who else audits the Fed?
The Federal Reserve Board’s Office of Inspector General retains an outside auditor — a private accounting firm — to review the Board’s financial statements and compliance with laws affecting those statements. Deloitte & Touche LLP served as the outside auditor of the Fed Board in 2007 and 2008. The Board selects outside auditors to audit the 12 regional reserve banks.

I trust accountants more than I do politicians.

94 jcm  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:58:22am

re: #66 Sharmuta

Congress can't even balance their own budget, we want to let them audit others?!

Fox.
Henhouse.

95 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:58:37am

re: #84 Charles

I have a different take on it. Ron Paul does not get the benefit of the doubt from me. Anything he advocates should be treated with suspicion.

Oh, I agree. That article just gives me a credible outline when I speak to someone else.

96 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 10:59:56am

How a Detainee Became An Asset
Sept. 11 Plotter Cooperated After Waterboarding


After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials."

In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture.

Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times."

The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate.

97 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:00:25am

Does anyone besides me think that this is merely Barney Frank trying to distract everyone?

98 kansas  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:00:53am

re: #56 Killgore Trout

I didn't make a big deal out of this one because it seemed like an innocent gaff. It gets worse...

GOP Rep. Behind "Great White Hope" Remark Voted For Bill With Same Phrase


Ugh.

Are we as sensitive about what blacks say about the Black House, and this ain't America no more? I didn't think so.

99 ckb  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:00:54am

re: #18 Charles

Auditing the Fed Is Economic Suicide.

Given that #1 and #2 in this article are already happening without an open audit, what's the danger?

100 Athens Runaway  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:01:27am

re: #97 Dianna

Does anyone besides me think that this is merely Barney Frank trying to distract everyone?

Not at all. It's not like Americans have attention spans that make goldfish look... ohhh jingly keys!

101 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:01:34am

re: #97 Dianna

Does anyone besides me think that this is merely Barney Frank trying to distract everyone?

Are you insinuating he's making an end run?

102 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:02:08am

re: #13 Pianobuff

Last I heard, there were 276 congress-critters signed up as co-sponsors. I think that was the number, anyway.

Is it possible to educate the public as to the dangers of this, so as to apply pressure, or is this done?

103 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:02:14am

re: #99 ckb

Given that #1 and #2 in this article are already happening without an open audit, what's the danger?

The Fed is still nominally in control of the money supply and the interest rate. They don't answer to anyone but the Chairman, right now. If an audit went through, Congress would undoubtedly leverage it to make the Fed answer to Congress for its business, thus putting it under the control of the legislature, and they wouldn't be able to say "no" if they wanted to.

104 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:02:18am

re: #97 Dianna

Does anyone besides me think that this is merely Barney Frank trying to distract everyone?

I think it's Barney Frank trying to do more of what Barney Frank does (well,,, ONE of the things he does!!)

That is put his nose into ANYTHING that even tangentially touches a committee he is either chairman of or on!

105 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:02:26am

re: #97 Dianna

Does anyone besides me think that this is merely Barney Frank trying to distract everyone?

Hard to tell. Interferring in agencies like the Fed is right up Frank's alley. Maybe he hasn't had enough fun yet after fucking up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

106 Land Shark  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:02:29am

Here's hoping Barney Frank and Ron Paul elope somewhere. Mars would be nice. Uranus would be better.

///

107 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:02:38am

re: #101 Diego

Are you insinuating he's making an end run?

Not if we're making yet another tiresome joke about Frank being gay.

108 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:02:57am

re: #106 Land Shark

Here's hoping Barney Frank and Ron Paul elope somewhere. Mars would be nice. Uranus would be better.

///

Betters ur's than mine.

109 Kragar  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:03:04am

Some idiot sent a mass email with about 7mb of attachments to every distro list they could get to, then some other idiots forwarded it, and now we have people replying to all saying please remove me from the email. In the last 2 hours, I've gotten over 300mb of email generated off them.
Got to love a total disregard for established policies.

110 Baier  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:03:24am

It looks like the start of congressional league of a super villains.
caecus aeternitas

111 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:03:35am

re: #102 unrealizedviewpoint

Is it possible to educate the public as to the dangers of this, so as to apply pressure, or is this done?

I think it's happening on this thread...

It's not "done" until and unless Obama signs it.

112 Flyovercountry  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:03:56am

re: #6 Cato the Elder

Paul may be nuts, but what, specifically, is wrong with broader Fed audits? What legitimate reason is there to oppose transparency in this regard?

I am all in favor of anything which adds transparency to any investment, or market place. The problem I have with Barney Frank, is that it won't stop there. History has taught me that Rep. Frank likes to tinker with legislation designed to push his political agenda. I hope that this time is the exception, but I am fearful that it is not.

113 J.D.  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:04:43am

re: #96 Kenneth

You weren't here yesterday, huh?

:D

114 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:04:55am

re: #107 Dianna

I'm an moderate Democrat. I don't make such jokes.

Though I do occasionally indulge in innuendo..

115 Land Shark  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:05:10am

re: #108 Creeping Eruption

Betters ur's than mine.

Better yet the planet far, far away.

116 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:05:56am

re: #114 Diego

I'm an moderate Democrat. I don't make such jokes.

Though I do occasionally indulge in innuendo..

Wouldn't it be easier to go Inthedoor than inthewindow?

117 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:06:03am

re: #74 MJ

I think the Democrats would be better off if the voted to open the
Charles Rangel Accountability Office.

Democrats and math do not mix.

They don't work for Tim Geithner.
They don't work for Charlie Rangel.

They don't work for the CBO and Peter Orzsag.

Taxpayers are on to all the politicians in DC. They.Cannot.Be.Trusted.

In fact, they can't do basic math, and if they do, you'd realize that what they're proposing is so unserious that it should raise alarm bells. Take the whole cap and trade mess winding through Congress. The proposal to cut emissions is so preposterous that they're intent upon cutting it to levels not seen since the late 1800s. No way that could ever happen, not when the Democrats are so utterly opposed to nuclear power and that wind, solar, and tidal are mere percentage points of generating capacity in the country. There is no will to build new generating capacity, and pushing these emission caps means that prices for energy will spike with nothing to do with energy production - but with government interference in the markets.

118 Syrah  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:06:19am

The government has pumped a mind boggling amount of money into the system since that TARP bill was passed.

Will there be an inflation spike as a result?

Will that inflation spike spin up the Paulians like gnats on crack?

119 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:06:27am

re: #21 Charles

Ron Paul's campaign to audit the Fed is just the first step in a wider plan to abolish it entirely, by the way.

The audit itself would hobble the Fed. Also, I think there's a bit of xenophobia involved. From wee fury's link in #19:

Mr. Paul, in an interview, said he expects the audit to detail who the Fed lends to, how much it lends and what agreements it has made with foreign central banks and financing organizations. While the bill only seeks a one-time audit, he said he wants the Fed to be audited at least annually with the report — and details of its transactions — disclosed publicly.

It wouldn't be a big step from auditing the Fed, to passing legislation allowing Congress to interfere with the Fed's decision-making. Scary.

120 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:06:27am

The Fed isn't the one in control of the sky-rocketing deficit. All fiscal eyes should be trained squarely on Congress at this time. This is a massive distraction on the part of Congressman Paul and all those supporting him, and it's detrimental. Balancing the budget and reducing our debt should be our top priority- not this side show.

121 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:06:32am

re: #106 Land Shark

Here's hoping Barney Frank and Ron Paul elope somewhere. Mars would be nice. Uranus would be better.

///

Barney and Ron sitting in a tree
L-A-W-M-A-K-I-N-G
First comes a bill
Next comes a law
Then we get screwed over.

122 calcajun  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:06:40am

re: #114 Diego

I'm an moderate Democrat. I don't make such jokes.

Though I do occasionally indulge in innuendo..

Well, you know what they say; "Love flies out the door when money comes innuendo." -Groucho Marx

123 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:07:26am

re: #122 calcajun

lol :¬)

124 Kragar  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:07:31am

re: #114 Diego

I'm an moderate Democrat. I don't make such jokes.

Though I do occasionally indulge in innuendo..

Like the back seat of a Volkswagon?

125 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:07:34am

(cont'd)

"Detainees in mid-2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals -- many of who we had never heard of before -- that al-Qaeda deemed suitable for Western operations," according to the CIA summary.

...and if not for waterboarding, not have learned of them.

126 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:07:47am

re: #84 Charles

I have a different take on it. Ron Paul does not get the benefit of the doubt from me. Anything he advocates should be treated with suspicion.

If it weren't for you and LGF, I might be a supporter of Ron Paul.

127 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:07:48am

re: #111 wrenchwench

I think it's happening on this thread...

It's not "done" until and unless Obama signs it.

276 co-sponors of the bill is more than just support... Hard to defeat? No?

128 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:07:48am

re: #102 unrealizedviewpoint

Is it possible to educate the public as to the dangers of this, so as to apply pressure, or is this done?

It won't make it through the Senate, IMO.

129 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:08:18am

re: #124 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Like the back seat of a Volkswagon?

That's an uncomfortable place.

130 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:08:19am

re: #109 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Some idiot sent a mass email with about 7mb of attachments to every distro list they could get to, then some other idiots forwarded it, and now we have people replying to all saying please remove me from the email. In the last 2 hours, I've gotten over 300mb of email generated off them.
Got to love a total disregard for established policies.

I had that happen in my company a couple of times. Every nimrod in the address book used 'reply all' to ask to be removed. Finally, some high ranking type jumped in and directed everyone to stop using 'reply all' since the load was threatening the system.
I was sorely tempted to use reply all and say "OK".
My better angels prevailed.
Nyuk, nyuk.

131 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:08:21am

re: #90 Buck

Did we do this yet?

In an open letter to the local head of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, Hamas called the Holocaust "a lie invented by the Zionists".

Hamas does not wish to acknowledge any suffering that interferes with their own grand self-inflicted Nakba.

132 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:08:26am

re: #113 J.D.

no, what happened yesterday?

133 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:08:34am

re: #84 Charles

I have a different take on it. Ron Paul does not get the benefit of the doubt from me. Anything he advocates should be treated with suspicion.

If it weren't for you and LGF, I might be a supporter of Ron Paul.

134 Land Shark  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:08:38am

re: #120 Sharmuta

The Fed isn't the one in control of the sky-rocketing deficit. All fiscal eyes should be trained squarely on Congress at this time. This is a massive distraction on the part of Congressman Paul and all those supporting him, and it's detrimental. Balancing the budget and reducing our debt should be our top priority- not this side show.

Hear, hear! Right on the money. Instead of auditing the Fed, I say we audit the President and the Congress. Yeah, I know, dream on...

135 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:08:53am

What?

136 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:09:11am

re: #107 Dianna

Just to clarify:

End Run - To bypass an impediment often by deceit or trickery

ie: playing Ron Paul to his own ends (again, no joke here)

137 ckb  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:09:18am
A companion measure in the Senate, S.604, is called the Federal Reserve Sunshine Act of 2009 and includes language nearly identical to the House version. The bill, written by Sen. Bernard Sanders of Vermont, has 23 co-sponsors.

OK, Bernie Sanders is the writer of the Senate bill. It can't get wierder than that. This thing has to be bad - I no longer need to understand it.

138 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:09:22am

re: #126 MandyManners

If it weren't for you and LGF, I might be a supporter of Ron Paul.

Charles (and others) has done us a great service by alerting us to Ron Paul and his cohorts and what they support.

Thank you.

139 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:09:26am

re: #131 Alouette

Hamas does not wish to acknowledge any suffering that interferes with their own grand self-inflicted Nakba.

yes, the sure have a knack-ba for that./

140 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:09:31am

re: #133 MandyManners

If it weren't for you and LGF, I might be a supporter of Ron Paul.

This is more true than some people might like to admit. Even the crazies can sometimes sound like they know what they're talking about.

Add enough mumbo-jumbo and even the best critical thinker will occasionally be hoodwinked.

141 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:09:32am

re: #135 MandyManners

I think something stuttered.

Was it history?

142 jantjepietje  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:09:37am

There isn't enough gold in the world to run a gold standard in order to do that they would need to inflate the value of gold by like a factor three(witch would be terrible for all industrial applications of gold)

143 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:10:22am

re: #136 Diego

Just to clarify:

ie: playing Ron Paul to his own ends (again, no joke here)

I understand. Sorry. I'm over-sensitive on some subjects.

144 Drogheda  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:10:30am

re: #132 Kenneth

no, what happened yesterday?

Some blog had a thread about that article.

WaPo: How a Detainee Became an Asset

145 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:10:38am

re: #127 unrealizedviewpoint

276 co-sponors of the bill is more than just support... Hard to defeat? No?

Such things have happened before. People were pretty sure the Immigration Reform bill was a shoo-in until some a whole lot of phone calls were made and a ton of faxes were sent.

We need the list of those who have signed onto this thing.

146 J.D.  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:10:39am

re: #132 Kenneth

no, what happened yesterday?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I'm just ribbing you.
It's happened to me, too.

147 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:10:56am

re: #134 Land Shark

Hear, hear! Right on the money. Instead of auditing the Fed, I say we audit the President and the Congress. Yeah, I know, dream on...

It's radical- this notion of mine to tie their purse strings by passing the balanced budget amendment. The thought makes me giddy- make Congress turn in their books to the authorities like every other business. How fun would that be?

148 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:11:32am

re: #144 Drogheda

Oh. Thanks.

Good thread.

149 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:11:38am

re: #143 Dianna

No apology ever required or needed :¬)

150 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:11:48am

re: #133 MandyManners

If it weren't for you and LGF, I might be a supporter of Ron Paul.

I've been skeptical of Paul for a long time, ever since he jumped to the Libertarians to run for president, then jumped back the GOP after losing. He's an attention whore, and a dangerous one at that.

151 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:12:20am

If you want to see some of the inane "reasoning" behind the whole "Close the Fed" movement, Gary North ( a supposed shining light of this movement) provides many examples.

Here is an excerpt of one posting at Lew Rockwell's website, which I have linked to before. It is where he tries to argue that the Fed is to blame for a movie no longer costing 25 cents and the candy bar 10 cents.

[Link: www.lewrockwell.com...]

These income streams are monetary. But people's goal in creating streams of income is the creation of consumable income, not digits or pieces of paper with dead politicians' pictures on them. So, people's expectations regarding future prices are important in establishing the level of present demand for monetary income streams.

If the process of monetary depreciation is slow enough, people tend to forget what is happening to the value of their locked-in streams of future monetary income. I think of those Nestle candy bars. I also remember going to a movie on Saturday morning in 1951: 15 cents each way for the bus, 25 cents for the movie ticket, and 10 cents for a Butterfinger candy bar. That bought me a day's entertainment, 10 a.m. to 4 p.m.: a western, six cartoons, a serial, a newsreel, and two adult features. Plus, previews of coming attractions.

The Federal Reserve has acted to undermine the value of streams of monetary income. In response, voters have pressured politicians to establish cost-of-living escalators for Social Security payments. So, the government's statisticians do whatever they can to juggle the data in such a way as to deflate the consumer price index. They prefer to include computers in the official basket of goods rather than candy bars. Moore's law is their friend.

The man is an idiot disguised as an intellectual.

The idea that computers as a commodity should be excluded from a measurment of the costs of goods and services in the economy is patently insane. Computers have established an entirely new class of goods and services in the economy.

What the hell are you doing now? What was that moron Gary North doing when he authored that post? By what means was the "information" he imparted delivered to thousands around the world and zero cents in terms of variable costs?

And who goes to movies now that you can get them on your computer? Or DVR (a computer)? Or BlueRay (computer)? Or older tech DVD (still a fricking computer)? And if you go to the theater, you may see it digitally projected - through a fricking computer. All at a lower cost of distribution than in the hallowed, sacred, "all was good in the world" 1950s.

This man actually claims that productivity gains from Moore's law should be excluded from measuring inflation. It is all a "racket".

This is the quality of thinking behind Ron Paul's economic fundamentalism.

152 JohnnyReb  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:12:31am

re: #142 jantjepietje

There isn't enough gold in the world to run a gold standard in order to do that they would need to inflate the value of gold by like a factor three(witch would be terrible for all industrial applications of gold)

I seem to recall someone doing a calculation on the US reverting back to the gold standard. The price per ounce would have to be like $24,000 or some obscene amount like that.

153 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:12:49am

OT:
I'll be posting a report this evening from NYC's 9/11 Visitor Center Preview Site, including photos of the Benny Gordon 9/11 NASCAR. In the meantime, it's the first time I ever got that close to a NASCAR and she sure was a sight to behold. They had the support trailer there as well. Unfortunately, I missed Gordon and anyone else from the crew.

The new center is a welcome addition, even if it meant losing a camera shop in the bargain. They have an interactive display, videos, images and models of the new WTC site and various items for sale, the proceeds of which go to funding the museum and memorial. Right outside, of course, were the typical hucksters who peddle 9/11 photos and brochures. No sign of troofers today though, although with the eighth anniversary of the attacks just under 2 weeks from now, I expect them to make their presence known.

154 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:12:51am

re: #120 Sharmuta

The Fed isn't the one in control of the sky-rocketing deficit. All fiscal eyes should be trained squarely on Congress at this time. This is a massive distraction on the part of Congressman Paul and all those supporting him, and it's detrimental. Balancing the budget and reducing our debt should be our top priority- not this side show.

Don't forget Frank. He's part of it now.

155 Land Shark  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:13:25am

re: #138 Honorary Yooper

Charles (and others) has done us a great service by alerting us to Ron Paul and his cohorts and what they support.

Thank you.

Yeah. I learned a lot about Ron Paul right here, then I was able to look it up and confirm it. I could see myself being fooled by the nut case. Which is just more evidence on the value of looking things up instead of just listening to "what people say."

156 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:13:58am

re: #145 wrenchwench

Such things have happened before. People were pretty sure the Immigration Reform bill was a shoo-in until some a whole lot of phone calls were made and a ton of faxes were sent.

We need the list of those who have signed onto this thing.

My point is I don't think the folks can be educated as to how bad this. Unlike how 'support for' quickly reversed here at LGF, the folks ain't as bright.

157 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:14:08am

re: #133 MandyManners

If it weren't for you and LGF, I might be a supporter of Ron Paul.

Deja vu.

158 MJ  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:14:37am

Ron Paul and Anti-Semitism

John Derbyshire, outraged at a long piece in the American Thinker about the online enthusiasm expressed for Ron Paul’s presidential campaign by neo-Nazi websites and their commenters, asks: “Don’t the American Thinker folk understand how paranoid bullying like that just reinforces the worst stereotypes about ethnocentric Jews?…For heaven’s sake: Does anyone really think Ron Paul is an anti-Semite?”

Well, we have two different questions here, don’t we?

Let’s take the second first — “Does anyone really think Ron Paul is an anti-Semite”? The obvious answer is: Yes, there are people who think Ron Paul is an anti-Semite...

[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

159 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:15:03am

re: #141 Dianna

I think something stuttered.

Was it history?

The little wheel spun. I did a cut/past and before I sent it again, I italicized the "might".

160 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:15:04am

re: #157 CyanSnowHawk

Deja vu.

All over again.

161 calcajun  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:15:37am

re: #144 Drogheda

next, there will be a picture of KSM at Langley-- "Employee of the Month"

162 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:15:47am

re: #155 Land Shark

I could see myself being fooled by the nut case. Which is just more evidence on the value of looking things up instead of just listening to "what people say."

Thus my earlier 'End the country', as I feel he would if given the chance, which I won't think he ever will be given in a thousand years. The guy is loony.

163 calcajun  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:16:27am

re: #160 Honorary Yooper

All over again.

No, what's annoying it when you think you're going to have deja vu./

164 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:16:49am

For any who need to get up to speed on Ron Paul- here is the list of Ron Paul tags here from LGF.

Be sure to see the articles where he takes money, and stands for photos with one of America's leading neo-nazis.

165 Bob Dillon  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:17:00am

re: #53 3 wood

You absolutely do not want Congress exerting influence over the Fed on monetary policy. They will end up using the audit as a weapon to intimidate the Fed to do their political bidding.

Once you get the discount rate and the money supply set by politicians, it's show over.

Absolutely. Can you imagine ... Pelosi, Frank and Wrangel with their collective control of the economy and increased deal making ability/dictation?

166 vxbush  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:17:59am

re: #165 Bobibutu

Absolutely. Can you imagine ... Pelosi, Frank and Wrangel with their collective control of the economy and increased deal making ability/dictation?

Stop. You're giving me nightmares.

167 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:18:11am

re: #151 karmic_inquisitor

Gary North:

He is the founder of the publishing firm Institute for Christian Economics (ICE). The company reportedly got its start with a bequest from an anonymous benefactor. That benefactor was North, who never received a salary or book royalties for the twenty-five years of its existence. At North's request, the board disbanded the ICE in 2001. The assets were transferred to Dominion Educational Ministries, Inc., a non-profit organization that operates Christian day cares. North is a member of the Presbyterian Church in America.

168 Buck  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:18:24am

re: #153 lawhawk

Truthers are busy converting to Birthers...

169 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:18:54am

re: #157 CyanSnowHawk

Deja vu.

All over again.

170 kansas  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:18:54am

re: #161 calcajun

next, there will be a picture of KSM at Langley-- "Employee of the Month"

Obama will personally apologize to him and bow, I mean lean over because he is much taller than KSM.

171 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:19:24am

re: #151 karmic_inquisitor

An economic Taliban.

172 Occasional Reader  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:20:09am
If you think auditing the Fed might not be a bad idea, I suggest you read this: Auditing the Fed Is Economic Suicide.

While I would definitely need to read a lot more on the subject to have an informed opinion, I have to say, that piece didn't exactly help much. It simply makes that leap from "audit" to "undue political influence", without explaining why that leap is necessary.

173 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:20:14am

Slightly OT,
I notice a certain group of morons out there who think they're being clever by spelling Charles's name backwards. Note to them, as I know they're reading this, it's not clever, it's just stupid.

174 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:20:26am

re: #168 Buck

Truthers are busy converting to Birthers...



Trirthers?

175 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:20:39am

OT ,, a reminder
Bad Night For 9/11 Troofers

Tonight at 9 p.m., National Geographic Channel dispels your beliefs!

176 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:20:45am

re: #171 Ward Cleaver

An economic Taliban.

See my No. 167. I highly doubt that just his pre-school business is "Dominion".

177 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:20:47am

re: #174 Ward Cleaver


Trirthers?

How about just plain idiots?

178 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:20:49am

I fear the Talivangicals more than I fear the Taliban :/

179 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:20:59am

re: #173 Honorary Yooper

Slightly OT,
I notice a certain group of morons out there who think they're being clever by spelling Charles's name backwards. Note to them, as I know they're reading this, it's not clever, it's just stupid.

What, you mean on this site?

180 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:21:09am

re: #174 Ward Cleaver


Trirthers?

Bruthers.

181 calcajun  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:21:27am

re: #173 Honorary Yooper

Wow-- they run the gamut of sarcasm from A to B, don't they.

182 Athens Runaway  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:21:34am

re: #110 Baier

It looks like the start of congressional league of a super villains.
caecus aeternitas

If Frank and Luap Nor were supervillians, they'd be the Rainbow Raider and Goldbug.

183 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:21:35am

OT, but this seems like something that would be right up everyone's alley.

Missouri Schools Officials Order Return of Band T-Shirts Showing Picture of Evolution

Parents and teachers objected that evolution (a scientific theory) was advancing a “religious” viewpoint. Amazingly, the school agreed and ordered the t-shirts turned in by the students.

District teacher and Band parent Sherry Melby was one of those objecting and stated “I don’t think evolution should be associated with our school.”

184 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:21:41am

re: #161 calcajun

next, there will be a picture of KSM at Langley-- "Employee of the Month"

If he gives a class on the proper use of a suicide belt, it will be a one time only class.

185 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:21:45am

re: #179 Ward Cleaver

What, you mean on this site?

No, a group of the banned.

186 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:21:54am

re: #173 Honorary Yooper

Slightly OT,
I notice a certain group of morons out there who think they're being clever by spelling Charles's name backwards. Note to them, as I know they're reading this, it's not clever, it's just stupid.

repooY yraronoH, why would they do that?

/

187 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:22:09am

re: #178 Diego

I fear the Talivangicals more than I fear the Taliban :/

Yeah, Swaggart wants to destroy all art and shroud women in bags.

188 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:22:17am

re: #126 MandyManners

If it weren't for you and LGF, I might be a supporter of Ron Paul.

I think you are smart enough to figure out on your own what a freaking anti-Semite Ron Paul is.

189 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:22:22am

re: #177 thedopefishlives

That works too.

190 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:22:24am

re: #178 Diego

?

191 calcajun  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:22:36am

re: #177 thedopefishlives

And those who doubt the stories of Palin's youngest child-- would be called..."Triggers"?

192 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:22:53am

re: #183 drcordell

What?!

How do you have a "picture of evolution"?!

193 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:22:59am

re: #180 MandyManners

Bruthers.

I love their bagels.
/

194 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:23:03am

re: #185 Honorary Yooper

No, a group of the banned.

Why?

195 Kragar  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:23:41am

A little breath of sanity,

First Bush was Hitler, now Obama is Hitler.

196 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:23:54am

re: #188 Alouette

I think you are smart enough to figure out on your own what a freaking anti-Semite Ron Paul is.

If I just accepted what RP said without digging into his associates, I don't know that I would see him as an anti-Semite.

197 calcajun  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:23:59am

re: #182 Athens Runaway

If Frank and Luap Nor were supervillians, they'd be the Rainbow Raider and Goldbug.

Barney and Ron---"WONDER TWIN POWERS ACTIVATE!"

198 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:24:03am

re: #193 CyanSnowHawk

I love their bagels.
/

My wife and I have two bagels. We walk them every day...
/

199 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:24:06am

re: #178 Diego

I fear the Talivangicals more than I fear the Taliban :/

Next time ,, BOLD that sarc tag!

just sayin!

200 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:24:13am

re: #183 drcordell

I actually like that t.

201 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:24:24am

re: #185 Honorary Yooper

No, a group of the banned.

Oh.

202 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:24:37am

Again- a strong Goldwater styled fiscal agenda on the part of the GOP would make this paul idiot look like the fool he is. In 1994, the GOP had the Contract With America, and we could use another. But it must be strong on dealing with Congress' role in spending and Congress' role in impacting the economy- like the Balanced Budget Amendment. No passing the buck- this is on Congress.

Perhaps Congress should join Debtors Anonymous.

203 Syrah  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:24:41am

re: #192 Dianna

What?!

How do you have a "picture of evolution"?!

Fish to man.

204 calcajun  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:25:05am

re: #185 Honorary Yooper

No, a group of the banned.

No-- Charles booked a cruise for them-- it's the "Voyage of the Banned".

205 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:25:12am

re: #194 MandyManners

Why?

They have little minds and small visions, and get pissy when people don't follow their agendas.

206 Drogheda  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:25:37am

re: #194 MandyManners

Why?

They probably think they're being clever.

207 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:25:38am

re: #203 Syrah

Fish to man.

Glub glub.

208 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:25:52am

re: #198 LGoPs

My wife and I have two bagels. We walk them every day...
/

Do they splash through the poodles when it rains?

209 Occasional Reader  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:04am

re: #195 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

A little breath of sanity,

First Bush was Hitler, now Obama is Hitler.

Brings to mind James Lileks' spin on Andy Warhol's dictum: In the future, everyone will be Hitler for 15 minutes.

210 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:07am

re: #187 MandyManners

Yeah, Swaggart wants to destroy all art and shroud women in bags.

Yup,those televangilists love those executions in soccer stadiums in Kandahar.

211 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:14am

re: #190 Spenser (with an S)

?

Sorry, a bit of a typo. I meant:

televangelical + taliban meniality = talivangelical

212 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:14am

re: #183 drcordell

OT, but this seems like something that would be right up everyone's alley.

Missouri Schools Officials Order Return of Band T-Shirts Showing Picture of Evolution


What instruments does this band play?

213 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:24am

re: #187 MandyManners

Yeah, Swaggart wants to destroy all art and shroud women in bags.

Honestly - I have to wonder about someone who has a greater distaste of "talivangicals" than for those who would condemn and destroy art and bag their women.

Equal distaste, perhaps, and for different reasons, but greater "fear"?

214 calcajun  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:28am

re: #198 LGoPs

My wife and I have two bagels. We walk them every day...
/

Wow-- with a story like that, you should be on a bialty show.

215 Occasional Reader  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:43am

re: #204 calcajun

No-- Charles booked a cruise for them-- it's the "Voyage of the Banned".

"And this one time, at Banned Camp..."

216 UFO TOFU  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:45am

re: #192 Dianna

What?!

How do you have a "picture of evolution"?!

Here's the one I have.

217 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:48am

re: #208 MandyManners

Do they splash through the poodles when it rains?

LOL...
:)

218 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:58am

re: #167 MandyManners

Gary North:

He is the founder of the publishing firm Institute for Christian Economics (ICE). The company reportedly got its start with a bequest from an anonymous benefactor. That benefactor was North, who never received a salary or book royalties for the twenty-five years of its existence. At North's request, the board disbanded the ICE in 2001. The assets were transferred to Dominion Educational Ministries, Inc., a non-profit organization that operates Christian day cares. North is a member of the Presbyterian Church in America.

Rushdoony is another name in the pantheon of intellectuals behind economic fundamentalism.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Here is a post from Gary North writing at Lew Rockwell eulogizing Rushdoony.

[Link: www.lewrockwell.com...]

And here is an index of posts by Ron Paul at Lew Rockwell

[Link: www.lewrockwell.com...]

These people will limit your economic freedoms in the name of a gold standard and a biblically coherent set of economic policies. And allow me to remind everyone that many forms of lending today would simply evaporate under such a regime. Including most mortgage deductions (state subsidization of usury).

219 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:26:58am

re: #203 Syrah

Fish to man.

I missed the inset of the tee-shirt the first time I clicked the link. I was focused on the text.

It's actually pretty cool. Australopithecus to homo sapiens sapiens.

220 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:27:28am

re: #211 Diego

Sorry, a bit of a typo. I meant:

televangelical + taliban meniality = talivangelical

Some advice from an old guy!

When you're in a hole ,,, STOP DIGGING!

221 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:27:49am

re: #174 Ward Cleaver

And leaving Trig out of the equation? /sully

222 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:27:57am

re: #192 Dianna

What?!

How do you have a "picture of evolution"?!

The shirt shows a monkey with a brass instrument in its tail evolving into a human playing a trumpet below the text "the evolution of brass."

223 Syrah  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:27:58am

re: #207 Sharmuta

Glub glub.

You have a song that you post on this subject.

Right here, right now?

224 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:28:01am

re: #213 reine.de.tout

Honestly - I have to wonder about someone who has a greater distaste of "talivangicals" than for those who would condemn and destroy art and bag their women.

Equal distaste, perhaps, and for different reasons, but greater "fear"?

Remember what they did to those giant Buddhas?! Would they destroy the pyramids and the Sphinx if they got control of Egypt?

225 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:28:20am

re: #215 Occasional Reader

"And this one time, at Banned Camp..."

In bed.

226 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:28:44am

re: #208 MandyManners

Do they splash through the poodles when it rains?

No, but we taught them to sing (howl actually) the Star Spanieled Banner...

227 Kragar  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:28:50am

re: #225 MandyManners

In bed.

Tragic yoga accident.

228 calcajun  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:29:07am

re: #221 lawhawk

see mine at 191.

229 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:29:20am

re: #218 karmic_inquisitor

Rushdoony is another name in the pantheon of intellectuals behind economic fundamentalism.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Here is a post from Gary North writing at Lew Rockwell eulogizing Rushdoony.

[Link: www.lewrockwell.com...]

And here is an index of posts by Ron Paul at Lew Rockwell

[Link: www.lewrockwell.com...]

These people will limit your economic freedoms in the name of a gold standard and a biblically coherent set of economic policies. And allow me to remind everyone that many forms of lending today would simply evaporate under such a regime. Including most mortgage deductions (state subsidization of usury).

Sounds like Islamic economics regarding interest.

230 subsailor68  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:29:33am

Phew! To audit or not to audit? That is the question. Back and forth I go. What to do? Oh wait...

Community Reinvestment Act
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
GM and Chrysler
Stimulus
Bailouts
Deficits and the national debt
Cuts in Defense (particularly missile defense)
CIA investigations
TARP
Money to ACORN
Universal Health Care/Insurance/Whatever
Cap and Trade
FCC Diversity Proposals

Cool...just answered my own question:

NO!

231 Occasional Reader  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:29:44am

re: #213 reine.de.tout

Honestly - I have to wonder about someone who has a greater distaste of "talivangicals" than for those who would condemn and destroy art and bag their women.

Equal distaste, perhaps, and for different reasons, but greater "fear"?

Haven't you seen all those videos floating around the Web in which Evangelical Christians behead their kidnapping victims, while shouting "Hallelujah"?

/neither have I

232 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:29:54am

re: #212 LGoPs

It's the school brass band. The name of their class was "the evolution of brass" so the shirt had a monkey evolving into a guy playing a trumped. Naturally that didn't sit too well with the local theocrats.

233 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:30:08am

re: #220 sattv4u2

I see them as a huge threat to this country. That is my view.

I don't support theocracy, no matter where it festers.

234 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:30:14am

re: #211 Diego

Sorry, a bit of a typo. I meant:

televangelical + taliban meniality = talivangelical

We got it. explanation not necessary. Still wack.

235 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:30:38am

re: #230 subsailor68

Phew! To audit or not to audit? That is the question. Back and forth I go. What to do? Oh wait...

Community Reinvestment Act
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
GM and Chrysler
Stimulus
Bailouts
Deficits and the national debt
Cuts in Defense (particularly missile defense)
CIA investigations
TARP
Money to ACORN
Universal Health Care/Insurance/Whatever
Cap and Trade
FCC Diversity Proposals

Cool...just answered my own question:

NO!

You do realize Obama grew the defense budget by 9% overall...

236 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:30:44am

re: #222 drcordell

The shirt shows a monkey with a brass instrument in its tail evolving into a human playing a trumpet below the text "the evolution of brass."

So the one inset at the top - which I misidentified as the tee-shirt - isn't it?

Oh, well. "Evolution of brass" is a cute idea. Reminds me of the choir's challenge to the band when I was in high school - we insisted that one guy could not use his tuba as a baseball mitt.

237 Occasional Reader  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:30:46am

I don't want to work
I just want to post on the blog all day

238 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:30:47am

re: #218 karmic_inquisitor

Rushdoony is another name in the pantheon of intellectuals behind economic fundamentalism.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Here is a post from Gary North writing at Lew Rockwell eulogizing Rushdoony.

[Link: www.lewrockwell.com...]

And here is an index of posts by Ron Paul at Lew Rockwell

[Link: www.lewrockwell.com...]

These people will limit your economic freedoms in the name of a gold standard and a biblically coherent set of economic policies. And allow me to remind everyone that many forms of lending today would simply evaporate under such a regime. Including most mortgage deductions (state subsidization of usury).

Rushdoony is also a Christian Reconstructionist.

In the Institutes, Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions. Under such a system, the list of civil crimes which carried a death sentence would include homosexuality, adultery, incest, lying about one's virginity, bestiality, witchcraft, idolatry or apostasy, public blasphemy, false prophesying, kidnapping, rape, and bearing false witness in a capital case.

Mentioning the Taliban isn't so out of line.

239 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:31:13am

re: #218 karmic_inquisitor

Gary North is an especially bloodthirsty Christian Reconstructionist, who's in favor of the death penalty for adulterers, homosexuals, women who have abortions, and children who talk back to their parents. Not kidding.

And he wants that death penalty carried out by stoning. Again, not kidding.

[Link: www.reason.com...]

240 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:31:54am

re: #232 drcordell

It's the school brass band. The name of their class was "the evolution of brass" so the shirt had a monkey evolving into a guy playing a trumped. Naturally that didn't sit too well with the local theocrats.

So, it looks like they're trying to make the band's t-shirts banned t-shirts.
Nyuk.

241 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:31:57am

re: #223 Syrah

You have a song that you post on this subject.

Right here, right now?

Fatboy Slim - Right Here, Right Now

Killgore had it linked in his nic for awhile.

242 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:31:58am

re: #230 subsailor68

Phew! To audit or not to audit? That is the question. Back and forth I go. What to do? Oh wait...

Community Reinvestment Act
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
GM and Chrysler
Stimulus
Bailouts
Deficits and the national debt
Cuts in Defense (particularly missile defense)
CIA investigations
TARP
Money to ACORN
Universal Health Care/Insurance/Whatever
Cap and Trade
FCC Diversity Proposals

Cool...just answered my own question:

NO!

LOOK! A SQUIRREL!

243 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:31:59am

re: #237 Occasional Reader

I don't want to work
I just want to post on the blog all day

Do what I did.
Retire.

244 Buck  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:32:22am

re: #183 drcordell

OK, one thing I can agree with drcordell about. These school officials are idiots.

245 Occasional Reader  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:32:40am

re: #239 Charles

Gary North is an especially bloodthirsty Christian Reconstructionist, who's in favor of the death penalty for adulterers, homosexuals, women who have abortions, and children who talk back to their parents. Not kidding.

And he wants that death penalty carried out by stoning. Again, not kidding.

[Link: www.reason.com...]

Hey, nobody's perfect.

/

246 subsailor68  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:32:41am

re: #235 drcordell

You do realize Obama grew the defense budget by 9% overall...

Hi drcordell!! I do, but then again, you could probably do that by issuing everyone in every branch a few new sets of uniforms.

;-)

247 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:32:41am

re: #238 Sharmuta

Thank you. I was despairing no one here would understand where I was coming from.

248 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:32:56am

re: #239 Charles

Gary North is an especially bloodthirsty Christian Reconstructionist, who's in favor of the death penalty for adulterers, homosexuals, women who have abortions, and children who talk back to their parents. Not kidding.

And he wants that death penalty carried out by stoning. Again, not kidding.

[Link: www.reason.com...]

That is to say: the sort of person who needs evaluation by a psychiatrist right now.

249 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:33:08am

re: #233 Diego

I see them as a huge threat to this country. That is my view.

I don't support theocracy, no matter where it festers.

Yup,,, nothing worse than a couple of clean cut kids in white shirts with starched collars and ties, clean shaven, neat haircuts coming to your door and and telling you that they love Jesus.

Why can;t they wear baggy jeans down below their asses with music blaring about "bitches and ho's" and sporting an unregistered firearm like normal kids!

250 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:33:18am

re: #237 Occasional Reader

I don't want to work
I just want to post on the blog all day

Youtube Video
251 calcajun  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:33:28am

re: #239 Charles

Gary North is an especially bloodthirsty Christian Reconstructionist, who's in favor of the death penalty for ... children who talk back to their parents. Not kidding.[Link: www.reason.com...]

As the father of teens-- there are times when I can get behind that one./

252 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:34:07am

It's anti-intellectualism- it has both right wing and left wing varieties.

Those of us who support science and the principles of the Enlightenment are surrounded by stupid. Left or right- if you oppose the stupid, I will fight with you.

253 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:34:13am

re: #239 Charles

Gary North is an especially bloodthirsty Christian Reconstructionist, who's in favor of the death penalty for adulterers, homosexuals, women who have abortions, and children who talk back to their parents. Not kidding.

And he wants that death penalty carried out by stoning. Again, not kidding.

[Link: www.reason.com...]

Where on EARTH do these people dig this stuff up?!

254 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:34:56am

re: #253 thedopefishlives

Meaning, that is, how anyone could actually believe in the sort of stuff North does. I just don't GET it.

255 Erik The Red  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:34:56am

re: #240 LGoPs


Great to have you back, you were missed. How was your "vacation". :)))

256 Buck  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:34:57am

re: #251 calcajun

As the father of teens-- there are times when I can get behind that one./

As a former teenager you probably had times when you would not...{grin}

257 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:35:09am

re: #247 Diego

Thank you. I was despairing no one here would understand where I was coming from.

Some here are still sensitive to the comparison, but on it's extreme end, the comparison is valid, imo.

258 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:35:46am

re: #249 sattv4u2

Yup,,, nothing worse than a couple of clean cut kids in white shirts with starched collars and ties, clean shaven, neat haircuts coming to your door and and telling you that they love Jesus.

As you seem to have missed it:

In the Institutes, Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions. Under such a system, the list of civil crimes which carried a death sentence would include homosexuality, adultery, incest, lying about one's virginity, bestiality, witchcraft, idolatry or apostasy, public blasphemy, false prophesying, kidnapping, rape, and bearing false witness in a capital case.

259 HelloDare  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:36:30am

Paul and Frank should get married.

260 subsailor68  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:36:52am

re: #239 Charles

Gary North is an especially bloodthirsty Christian Reconstructionist, who's in favor of the death penalty for adulterers, homosexuals, women who have abortions, and children who talk back to their parents. Not kidding.

And he wants that death penalty carried out by stoning. Again, not kidding.

[Link: www.reason.com...]

Wow! From that article:

Among Reconstructionism's highlights, the article cited support for laws "mandating the death penalty for homosexuals and drunkards." The Rev. Rushdoony fired off a letter to the editor complaining that the article had got his followers' views all wrong: They didn't intend to put drunkards to death.

Thanks for clarifying that Rev. Rushdoony. BTW, you do realize your name rhymes with Loony, right?

261 BenghaziHoops  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:36:58am

re: #244 Buck

OK, one thing I can agree with drcordell about. These school officials are idiots.


There is a funny read about this story...
[Link: www.theness.com...]

262 turn  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:36:58am

And when politicians go fishing, they always catch something. heh, that should make the top ten.

263 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:37:24am

OT:
Watch President Obama spin this as a triumph of foreign policy - he's getting Bibi and Abbas together for a photo op when the UN convenes in NYC next week.

I'm sure that will work out nearly as famously as Arafat shaking hands with Rabin (and which ended up with Nobel Prizes all around).

"Yes, I think they will meet by the end of September. President Obama will chair it, and I think that at least there is a chance that they will decide they are going to reopen negotiations," Peres said. "But that will not include Hamas."

In order for that to happen, the Israelis will likely have to agree to suspend or halt settlement construction. Peres said that issue is still unresolved.

So, Hamas isn't included, even though they control Gaza and have a say on what happens to the Palestinians. The Israelis are supposedly going to stop building communities, even though they are not an obstacle to peace, and can be transferred just as surely as they were in Sinai and Gaza. No, there can be no peace until Palestinians accept a Jewish state of Israel alongside their Palestinian territory (which happens to be Jew-free, and rife with anti-Semitic agitprop and rancid calls for genocide and Holocaust revisionism). Once again, the pressure will be placed on Israel to make concessions, all while Palestinians skate on their obligations under Oslo.

264 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:37:29am

re: #259 HelloDare

Paul and Frank should get married.

Nah, I don't think that the kids would be nice looking.

265 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:38:16am

re: #258 Diego

Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions

And that's gotten LOADS of traction with all those Christian groups you abhor, right? I know as a Roman Catholic the Vatican has issued SEKRET plans for it!

shhh

266 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:38:59am

re: #246 subsailor68

Hi drcordell!! I do, but then again, you could probably do that by issuing everyone in every branch a few new sets of uniforms.

;-)

Either way, it's disingenuous to try and claim the man is cutting defense spending. If anything he's trying to steer money away from the sexy star-wars type programs and to programs that will benefit our soldiers who are in the sh*t with jury-rigged armor on their humvees.

267 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:39:34am

re: #257 Sharmuta

Some here are still sensitive to the comparison, but on it's extreme end, the comparison is valid, imo.

I agree it's a valid comparison on the extreme end.
What I didn't comprehend was why those beliefs would be more frightening coming from Christian evangelicals than Muslim extremists. It just seems logical to me they would be equally frightening.

268 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:40:12am

re: #265 sattv4u2

Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions

And that's gotten LOADS of traction with all those Christian groups you abhor, right? I know as a Roman Catholic the Vatican has issued SEKRET plans for it!

shhh

Actually, it gets traction with certain fundamentalist evangelical protestant groups, many of which believe we worship the devil when we go to Mass. The Church (RC) does not, and will not support that loony Rushdoony crappola.

269 Occasional Reader  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:40:18am

re: #258 Diego

The Taliban, of course, actually have political control over regions of not just one but two countries, in which they actively terrorize and kill.

This "Rushdoony" guy does not, and never will. He is on the absolute fringe of the society in which he lives, and few have even heard of him.


In that respect, it's odd that you fear the latter more than the former.

270 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:40:25am

re: #255 Erik The Red

Great to have you back, you were missed. How was your "vacation". :)))


I spent the 'vacation' in my room, but fortunately, I have lots of toys in the room... :)
Thanks. :)

271 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:40:40am

re: #265 sattv4u2

Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions

And that's gotten LOADS of traction with all those Christian groups you abhor, right? I know as a Roman Catholic the Vatican has issued SEKRET plans for it!

shhh


Stop! We're supposed to keep that secret until the time is right.

272 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:40:50am

re: #265 sattv4u2

It's better than that, you know. Look who drew attention to Rushdoony's extremism:

It started when two associates of the Rev. Jerry Falwell wrote an article which criticized Christian Reconstructionism, the influential movement led by theologian Rousas John (R.J.) Rushdoony, for advocating positions that even they as committed fundamentalists found "scary."

I'm not crazy about Falwell, or his associates' behavior, before or after he died, but this is interesting.

273 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:40:56am

re: #268 Honorary Yooper

Actually, it gets traction with certain fundamentalist evangelical protestant groups, many of which believe we worship the devil when we go to Mass. The Church (RC) does not, and will not support that loony Rushdoony crappola.

Exactly.

274 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:41:00am

re: #239 Charles

From that link:

"Christian economist" Gary North, Rushdoony's son-in-law and star polemicist of the Reconstructionist movement, is widely cited as a spokesman for free markets, if not exactly free minds; he even served for a brief time on the House staff of Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas), the Libertarian Party presidential nominee in 1988, when Paul was a member of Congress in the '70s.

Extremists of a feather...

275 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:41:00am

re: #265 sattv4u2

Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions

And that's gotten LOADS of traction with all those Christian groups you abhor, right?

I don't 'abhor' anyone, needless 'Christian groups'. I don't like fundamentalist or theocracy.

276 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:41:32am

Although conservatives rabidly opposed TARP, we made money on the deal...
Federal Reserve made $14 billion on turmoil loans

The Federal Reserve has made $14 billion in profits on loans made in the last two years, The Financial Times reported on Monday, citing officials close to the matter.

The U.S. central bank also earned about $19 billion from interest and fees charged to institutions that tapped liquidity facilities during the global financial crisis, the report said.

Reflexive ODS is not a good thing.

277 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:41:38am

re: #266 drcordell

Not the topic at hand.

278 Occasional Reader  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:41:43am

re: #265 sattv4u2

Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions

And that's gotten LOADS of traction with all those Christian groups you abhor, right? I know as a Roman Catholic the Vatican has issued SEKRET plans for it!

shhh

We have to dispatch our legions of Albino Assassins... I think this guy knows too much.

279 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:42:09am

re: #267 reine.de.tout

I agree it's a valid comparison on the extreme end.
What I didn't comprehend was why those beliefs would be more frightening coming from Christian evangelicals than Muslim extremists. It just seems logical to me they would be equally frightening.

Actually, I see it much more concerning coming from Muslims, as it
is actually being acted on.

280 Kragar  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:42:28am

re: #271 opnion

Stop! We're supposed to keep that secret until the time is right.

How are we supposed to give the hand shake over the internets?

281 Buck  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:42:37am

In an open letter to local UNRWA chief John Ging, the movement's Popular Committees for Refugees said: "We refuse to let our children study a lie invented by the Zionists." UNRWA spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said: "There is no mention of the Holocaust in the current syllabus." Asked if UNRWA planned to change that, he declined to comment.


On the CNN website? Reported by the LA Times? Nope.

I saw it first on the FoxNews ticker...

282 Danny  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:42:43am

I'm confused. Why all the concern about the Federal Reserve's so-called independence when they already rely on outside firms like BlackRock for financial advice?

283 HelloDare  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:42:50am

All is not lost. Comments to an LA Times opinion piece supporting Obama's position on Honduras. Couldn't find one that wasn't negative.

Didn't you know that the reason why Zelaya broke the law so many times, which led to his constitutional removal, was because he was siding and following Hugo Chavez's orders? If you help bring Zelaya back you will be having Chavez and Iran closer to your borders.

Sonia @ 9:50 AM PDT, Aug 31, 2009
*

This article was unbelievably PATHETIC. Study the facts. Zelaya repeatedly ran roughshod over the HONDURAN CONSTITUTION. Any nation has a right to protect their constitution. As the Supreme Court ordered his arrest, it was not a coup or junta.

James Padgett @ 9:50 AM PDT, Aug 31, 2009
*

To many Hondurans, this was not a coupe at all. It was Zelaya that was not acting by democratic principles but tyranical. Why is US backing a man that appears to of have dictatoracal desires for Honduras & has close allies of the same mind? Perhaps you should dig deeper on this story.

Lora Pace @ 9:47 AM PDT, Aug 31, 2009
*

This article, fails to establish the facts surrounding Mr. Zelaya's removal as President of Honduras and that most people in Honduras does not support his return to power. Recent Harris Poll results corraborate this, when 85 percent of Hondurans oppose his reinstatement.

Salvador Catracho @ 9:22 AM PDT, Aug 31, 2009
*

Where do you live in a cave? I live in Honduras and it is beyond obvious for us living here who is behind Zelaya. Who has been flying him all over the region for the last 60 days? Zelaya has the right to come back to Honduras and defend himself in court not as president.

Bob @ 9:05 AM PDT, Aug 31, 2009
*

While it may have been better to simply arrest Zelaya and not take him out of the country, it appears that proper channels have been taken. The military acted on the behest of the Supreme Court and the Legislature. Members of Zelaya's own government supported his ouster.

Tom @ 7:20 AM PDT, Aug 31, 2009
*

Do you have a clue what is going on in Honduras? You need only to read the Honduran constitution to know that Zelaya automatically removed himself from office, that the military carried out an arrest order, and that the civilian authority is in control! What planet do you spend most of your time on?

#

You fail to include all the Zelaya's illegal actions that lead to his removal from office.The millitary may have acted on Supreme court orders when they arrested him. Two days before they arrested him he(Zelaya) took a mob into an Air Force Base to retreived seized ballots.

Marco @ 6:22 AM PDT, Aug 31, 2009
#

The authors suggest that the US force Honduras to violate their own constitution by allowing someone that the courts and the legislature took out for violating their constitution. This would be laughable if it weren't so pernicious. You guys are on the wrong side ont his one.

MK @ 6:18 AM PDT, Aug 31, 2009
#

The authors are correct that a coup has occurred in HN. The coup leader was Zelaya. He went against the HN constitution. Why should our government be willing to support Zelaya? In doing so we are befriending Chavez and Castro. The mistake the HN government made was by not putting Zelaya on trial.

284 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:42:57am

re: #268 Honorary Yooper

There's plenty of anti-papist lunacy out there, even now.

285 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:42:58am

re: #229 MandyManners

Sounds like Islamic economics regarding interest.

IIRC Charlemagne made "taking of interest" in the lending of money a general offense based on the interpretation of the Old Testament by the Roman Catholic Church. The practice of banning "interest taking" as usury continued through the Middle Ages and started to lose traction as Protestant churches formed and trade and commerce expanded. Usury then came to mean "excessive" interest.

Well if you think you can eliminate inflation by moving the state to a gold standard then just about any interest rate could be seen as excessive since the money would theoretically keep its value if it simply sat.

286 calcajun  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:43:00am

re: #256 Buck

Memory fades.

287 Occasional Reader  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:43:12am

re: #276 Killgore Trout

Although conservatives rabidly opposed TARP

Really? All "conservatives" did? Even... you know... George W. Bush, on whose watch the program started?

288 MJ  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:43:13am

re: #263 lawhawk

OT:
Watch President Obama spin this as a triumph of foreign policy - he's getting Bibi and Abbas together for a photo op when the UN convenes in NYC next week.

I'm sure that will work out nearly as famously as Arafat shaking hands with Rabin (and which ended up with Nobel Prizes all around).

So, Hamas isn't included, even though they control Gaza and have a say on what happens to the Palestinians. The Israelis are supposedly going to stop building communities, even though they are not an obstacle to peace, and can be transferred just as surely as they were in Sinai and Gaza. No, there can be no peace until Palestinians accept a Jewish state of Israel alongside their Palestinian territory (which happens to be Jew-free, and rife with anti-Semitic agitprop and rancid calls for genocide and Holocaust revisionism). Once again, the pressure will be placed on Israel to make concessions, all while Palestinians skate on their obligations under Oslo.


Obama is fooling no one in Israel

4% of Israeli Jews: Obama pro-Israel

The number of Israelis who see US President Barack Obama's policies as pro-Israel has fallen to four percent, according to a Smith Research poll taken this week on behalf of The Jerusalem Post...

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

289 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:43:19am

re: #268 Honorary Yooper

Actually, it gets traction with certain fundamentalist evangelical protestant groups, many of which believe we worship the devil when we go to Mass. The Church (RC) does not, and will not support that loony Rushdoony crappola.

I've had to explain this to a Catholic myself- didn't seem to realize these folks think The Church is the Whore of Babylon, and they're not the allies to Catholics some have been led to believe.

290 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:43:30am

re: #278 Occasional Reader

We have to dispatch our legions of Albino Assassins... I think this guy knows too much.

Where are the Knights Templar when you really need one?

291 Bob Dillon  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:43:51am

re: #230 subsailor68

Phew! To audit or not to audit? That is the question. Back and forth I go. What to do? Oh wait...

Community Reinvestment Act
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
GM and Chrysler
Stimulus
Bailouts
Deficits and the national debt
Cuts in Defense (particularly missile defense)
CIA investigations
TARP
Money to ACORN
Universal Health Care/Insurance/Whatever
Cap and Trade
FCC Diversity Proposals

Cool...just answered my own question:

NO!

Oh come on! Look at all the practice they've had.

Surely they will get it right this time.

/

292 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:44:17am

re: #287 Occasional Reader

Really? All "conservatives" did? Even... you know... George W. Bush, on whose watch the program started?

It was a common theme at the early Tea Party protests.

293 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:44:27am

re: #280 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

How are we supposed to give the hand shake over the internets?

We're working on that , Shhh!

294 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:44:35am

re: #275 Diego

I don't 'abhor' anyone, needless 'Christian groups'. I don't like fundamentalist or theocracy.

A fundamentalist is not necessarily a theocrat.

295 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:44:37am

re: #282 Danny

I'm confused. Why all the concern about the Federal Reserve's so-called independence when they already rely on outside firms like BlackRock for financial advice?

Independence from government. Might not be such a bad idea, you know, considering the government can't handle money very well.

296 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:44:51am

re: #289 Sharmuta

I've had to explain this to a Catholic myself- didn't seem to realize these folks think The Church is the Whore of Babylon, and they're not the allies to Catholics some have been led to believe.

I'm surprised. I've heard radio broadcasts, late at night - it is obvious these folks think we Catholics are the children of Satan.

297 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:45:09am

re: #294 Dianna

Thus the 'or'..

298 Erik The Red  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:45:09am

re: #282 Danny

I'm confused. Why all the concern about the Federal Reserve's so-called independence when they already rely on outside firms like BlackRock for financial advice?

Advice is the key word here. It is not mandated policy. Give Congress any control over the Fed they will be tripping over each other to be in front of the line.

299 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:45:23am

re: #276 Killgore Trout

I sincerely hope this ends well, but I'm still chewing my nails.

300 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:45:29am

re: #287 Occasional Reader

Really? All "conservatives" did? Even... you know... George W. Bush, on whose watch the program started?

Conservative media certainly has put the fact that George Bush started TARP down the memory hole, and so has the GOP. Even several posts on this thread have Obama being bashed for TARP.

301 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:45:46am

By the way, there are quite a few Republican politicians who either belong to the Christian Reconstructionist movement outright, or have ties to it. One of them is James Inhofe, who was the subject of a post a few days ago.

Another is Mike Huckabee. I'm not sure you can you can call this a "fringe" movement, because their political influence on the right wing is quite a bit greater than most people realize.

302 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:45:57am

re: #276 Killgore Trout

Although conservatives rabidly opposed TARP, we made money on the deal...
Federal Reserve made $14 billion on turmoil loans

Reflexive ODS is not a good thing.

So, does that mean that Bush was right and gets credit? That will not be up for consideration.

I didn't support TARP, thinking it would still end up as a massive drain on the budget, and it still may work out that way, particularly in how entities have gotten monies that weren't originally intended to get them.

303 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:46:27am

re: #294 Dianna

A fundamentalist is not necessarily a theocrat.

Explain that for us? Those who adhere to Fundamentalist Islam are certainly labeled radicals, theocrats and dangerous. Why do the same labels not apply to Fundamentalist Christians?

304 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:46:35am

re: #301 Charles

By the way, there are quite a few Republican politicians who either belong to the Christian Reconstructionist movement outright, or have ties to it. One of them is James Inhofe, who was the subject of a post a few days ago.

Another is Mike Huckabee. I'm not sure you can you can call this a "fringe" movement, because their political influence on the right wing is quite a bit greater than most people realize.

What scares me is that until this thread, I'd actually never heard of such a movement. I'll admit my religious background is a bit of a fundamentalist evangelical type, but nothing in the league of these nutjobs.

305 Occasional Reader  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:46:49am

re: #283 HelloDare

Leaving aside the Obama Admin's shameful stance on this, there's also the dark comedy of the OAS issuing a ringing denunciation of the "coup", as an alleged violation of the OAS Democratic Charter. This... only a few weeks after applauding a unanimous (IIRC) vote to re-admit Cuba.

So... how's that "Democratic Charter" business working out in Cuba, guys? When did Raul Castro win that election, again? I don't recall.

306 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:46:50am

re: #301 Charles

By the way, there are quite a few Republican politicians who either belong to the Christian Reconstructionist movement outright, or have ties to it.


'C' Street anyone?

307 subsailor68  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:47:03am

re: #266 drcordell

Either way, it's disingenuous to try and claim the man is cutting defense spending. If anything he's trying to steer money away from the sexy star-wars type programs and to programs that will benefit our soldiers who are in the sh*t with jury-rigged armor on their humvees.

Here's a link to some of the cuts/increases proposed:

Gates unveils broad changes in Pentagon spending

I'm completely with you, by the way, on money going to our soldiers and the equipment they need...just looks like the focus is on intelligence and surveillance (probably not all bad).

308 Eowyn2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:47:12am

re: #39 jcm

That argument has no currency!


Its minty

309 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:47:41am

re: #282 Danny

As I understood it, they collect research from everyone they can. And - as I understood it - Black Rock's analysts have been more accurate than most.

*Shrug.*

310 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:47:55am

re: #263 lawhawk

This is what that photo-op is about:

The rigged game

Obama will proclaim a breakthrough in Mid-east peace by insisting Israel stop ALL settlement building, in exchange for which the US will increase pressure on Iran to stop their nuke program. There's a whole lot that's wrong and dangerous with that approach.

311 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:48:08am

re: #302 lawhawk

So, does that mean that Bush was right and gets credit? That will not be up for consideration.


Bush gets credit in my book. As does Obama. Bailing out the banks was the right thing to do.

312 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:48:12am

re: #239 Charles

Gary North is an especially bloodthirsty Christian Reconstructionist, who's in favor of the death penalty for adulterers, homosexuals, women who have abortions, and children who talk back to their parents. Not kidding.

And he wants that death penalty carried out by stoning. Again, not kidding.

[Link: www.reason.com...]

Reading the article, these folks are not friends of a great federal republic and constitution. They would actively engage in violating the First Amendment from the get-go.

On ultimate goals: "So let us be blunt about it," says Gary North. "We must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God."

They are as dangerous to us as jihadists, and for the same reason. They desire to take away our freedom.

313 Danny  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:49:14am

re: #298 Erik The Red

Advice is the key word here. It is not mandated policy. Give Congress any control over the Fed they will be tripping over each other to be in front of the line.

OK. But how is an audit "mandated policy"? I can see how it may lead to governmental policy, but doesn't the government already mandate policy to Federal Reserve programs?

314 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:49:18am

re: #304 thedopefishlives

What scares me is that until this thread, I'd actually never heard of such a movement. I'll admit my religious background is a bit of a fundamentalist evangelical type, but nothing in the league of these nutjobs.

Often times these groups have been mentioned on Intelligent Design/Evolution threads, so if you haven't looked in on those threads, you might not have seen that these sects have been discussed quite a bit.

315 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:49:26am

re: #311 Killgore Trout

Bush gets credit in my book. As does Obama. Bailing out the banks was the right thing to do.

100% agree

The following "stimulus" however was not needed, imho

316 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:50:03am

re: #312 Honorary Yooper

They are as dangerous to us as jihadists, and for the same reason. They desire to take away our freedom.

And are they not the same who are sending their children to military can't to be 'soldiers for The Lord'?

317 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:51:16am

re: #297 Diego

I wouldn't worry about most fundamentalists. Really.

318 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:51:25am

re: #301 Charles

Are you aware of any association between Sarah Palin and the Christian Reconstructionists?

319 MJ  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:51:46am

re: #310 Kenneth

This is what that photo-op is about:

The rigged game

Obama will proclaim a breakthrough in Mid-east peace by insisting Israel stop ALL settlement building, in exchange for which the US will increase pressure on Iran to stop their nuke program. There's a whole lot that's wrong and dangerous with that approach.

Pressure alone will not get Iran to stop their nuke program.

320 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:52:06am

re: #316 Diego

And are they not the same who are sending their children to military can't to be 'soldiers for The Lord'?

What?

321 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:52:21am

Military CAMP that was..

Fingers type what they want some times..


re: #317 Dianna

I wouldn't worry about most fundamentalists. Really.

Oh, but I do. I most certainly do.

322 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:52:39am

I've figured out why I oppose Obama and his administration. It's because of my fear of water related sports.
"I Don't Serf"
/

323 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:52:55am

re: #318 Kenneth

Are you aware of any association between Sarah Palin and the Christian Reconstructionists?

Dominionists.

324 Occasional Reader  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:53:32am

re: #321 Diego

Military CAMP that was..

Source, please.

325 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:53:42am
326 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:53:56am

re: #315 sattv4u2

100% agree

The following "stimulus" however was not needed, imho

The jury is still out on that one but I suspect that eventually we'll learn that at least some of the stimulus was necessary. I have no doubt that there was a lot of waste and some programs didn't work but my guess is that overall some sort of stimulus spending was a necessity. It's another thing that was rabidly opposed by Republicans, not all of it was bad.

327 vxbush  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:54:16am

re: #318 Kenneth

Are you aware of any association between Sarah Palin and the Christian Reconstructionists?

An excellent question.

328 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:54:34am

OT - The Mt. Wilson Tower Cam is up again, and the pictures show lots of smoke. There's been lots of brush clearing done, and lots of fire retardant dropped in the area - it's hoped that will help spare the observatory and the communications facilities from the Station fire.

329 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:54:57am

re: #314 Sharmuta

Often times these groups have been mentioned on Intelligent Design/Evolution threads, so if you haven't looked in on those threads, you might not have seen that these sects have been discussed quite a bit.

That would be why. I guess there's more value in those threads than would be obvious at first glance.

330 subsailor68  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:55:05am

re: #319 MJ

Hi MJ! I think you're right on Iran. It seems to me that international affairs is like chess, or perhaps poker. It's critical to understand how your opponent thinks. It's not so important to understand why he thinks the way he does, just to know it's how. And then act accordingly.

331 Kragar  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:55:09am

re: #319 MJ

Pressure alone will not get Iran to stop their nuke program.

Well, a sudden change in atmospheric pressure might have some effect.

332 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:55:17am

re: #321 Diego

Military CAMP that was..

Fingers type what they want some times..

Oh, but I do. I most certainly do.


Is your contention that people are sending their kids to the U.S miolitary
to be Soldiers for God, or to some secret Christian Military Training site?
If it is either one, what do you base it on.

333 Eowyn2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:55:21am

re: #266 drcordell

Either way, it's disingenuous to try and claim the man is cutting defense spending. If anything he's trying to steer money away from the sexy star-wars type programs and to programs that will benefit our soldiers who are in the sh*t with jury-rigged armor on their humvees.

Personally knowing a few of those soldiers, especially those who were around during the 'jury-rigged armor' days at the beginning of the war, the situation was blown way out of proportion. The main culprit was time, many supplies lagged behind the troops because the troops moved so fast.

334 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:55:50am

re: #328 Ward Cleaver

OT - The Mt. Wilson Tower Cam is up again, and the pictures show lots of smoke. There's been lots of brush clearing done, and lots of fire retardant dropped in the area - it's hoped that will help spare the observatory and the communications facilities from the Station fire.

I just hope Ojoe is alright...

335 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:56:06am

Charles, has your neighborhood been getting any effects from the fires (smoke, etc.)?

336 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:56:33am

re: #326 Killgore Trout

The jury is still out on that one but I suspect that eventually we'll learn that at least some of the stimulus was necessary. I have no doubt that there was a lot of waste and some programs didn't work but my guess is that overall some sort of stimulus spending was a necessity. It's another thing that was rabidly opposed by Republicans, not all of it was bad.

I haven't seen any of it that has been "good" yet. Nothing that has/ will produce sustainable jobs. The economy is showing signs of turning around now even though the great majority of stimulus moneis won;t be in the pipeline for 1-2 years from now (again, mostly due to the stabilization of the banks. lending institutions. insurance companies due to TARP)

337 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:56:35am

re: #331 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Well, a sudden change in atmospheric pressure might have some effect.

You mean like overpressure?

/from a nuke

338 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:56:42am

re: #303 drcordell

OK, try this series of terms:

Fundamentalist
Charismatic
Evangelical
Pentacostal

A "fundamentalist" is one who believes in a literal reading of a religious text. There are some comic elements to Christian fundamentalism - the ability of most sects to skip lightly over the law and read the books of history and the prophets selectively. But most (leaving aside reconstructionists and some other fringe readings) want to live their lives by Jesus' precepts as explained by Paul, Peter, John and James. This means, by the way, that there is no call to overthrow or even defy secular authority.

The Koran has some other issues.

339 Erik The Red  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:56:44am

re: #313 Danny

OK. But how is an audit "mandated policy"? I can see how it may lead to governmental policy, but doesn't the government already mandate policy to Federal Reserve programs?

The duties of the Federal Reserve;

1. conducting the nation's monetary policy by influencing the monetary and credit conditions in the economy in pursuit of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates,
2. supervising and regulating banking institutions to ensure the safety and soundness of the nation's banking and financial system and to protect the credit rights of consumers,
3. maintaining the stability of the financial system and containing systemic risk that may arise in financial markets,
4. providing financial services to depository institutions, the U.S. government, and foreign official institutions, including playing a major role in operating the nation's payments system.

No government interference on policy. Can you imagine Congress deciding what interest rate should be? Say goodbye to our free market.

340 Occasional Reader  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:57:30am

Later.

341 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:57:51am
342 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:58:20am

re: #340 Occasional Reader

Later.

Tell Adriana Lima we said "Hi".

343 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:58:36am

re: #324 Occasional Reader

Source, please.

One such is 'Jesus Camp'. I've heard there are many others, several being 'underground' organizations who feel there will be a Christian revolution and they will be called to fight in the streets. Sarah Palin is a member of a fraction..

344 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:59:23am

re: #316 Diego

And are they not the same who are sending their children to military can't to be 'soldiers for The Lord'?

I'd like to see a link for that. I really haven't read anything about that.

345 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 11:59:42am

re: #318 Kenneth

Are you aware of any association between Sarah Palin and the Christian Reconstructionists?

Palin was a long time attendee of an Assemblies of God church -- an extreme fundamentalist Pentecostal sect that is tied to the Dominionist/Reconstructionist movement.

346 subsailor68  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:00:20pm

re: #341 buzzsawmonkey

Massive amounts of money thrown around drunkenly get applauded because "not all of it was bad?" Remind me to remind you of this position next time you bring up "fiscal responsibility."

The stimulus bill was a rush-rush-rush porkfest. If a few of its dollars did fall on fertile soil; if a couple things did benefit the economy on the "stopped-clock-right-twice-a-day" principle, that is no endorsement of or justification for the stimulus itself, as it was produced and passed.

Hi Buzz! What? Are you trying to tell me this didn't really, really help get the economy kick-started?

Feds: Stimulus money sent to 4,000 cons

;-)

347 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:00:25pm

re: #343 Diego

One such is 'Jesus Camp'. I've heard there are many others, several being 'underground' organizations who feel there will be a Christian revolution and they will be called to fight in the streets. Sarah Palin is a member of a fraction..

Uh, excuse me, where is this Jesus Camp & what do you base Sarah Palins membership on?

348 Danny  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:00:28pm

re: #339 Erik The Red

No government interference on policy. Can you imagine Congress deciding what interest rate should be? Say goodbye to our free market.

I agree, interest rates should not be mandated by the govt., but even free-market banks have to be transparent about their assets and liabilities. I would assume audits deal primarily with this, no? (Not arguing, just trying to learn.)

349 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:00:33pm

re: #321 Diego

Military CAMP that was..

Fingers type what they want some times..

Oh, but I do. I most certainly do.

Worry about the types who describe themselves as dominionist or reconstuctionists. Most fundies are merely irritating.

A very few are dangerous.

350 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:00:44pm

re: #344 Dianna

I'd like to see a link for that. I really haven't read anything about that.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

351 Eowyn2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:00:57pm

re: #303 drcordell

Explain that for us? Those who adhere to Fundamentalist Islam are certainly labeled radicals, theocrats and dangerous. Why do the same labels not apply to Fundamentalist Christians?

Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's.
Christs teachings did not include world domination.

352 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:00:59pm

re: #325 Lincolntf

If Barney Frank = Ron Paul and Ron Paul = Tea Parties and Tea Parties = Stormfront and Stormfront = Nazi, does that mean that Barney Frank is a big gay Nazi?

Springtime for Hitler will be made into a play. /Franz Liebkind

353 mt3_1234  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:01:41pm

re: #57 Charles

The entire point of Ron Paul's bill is to go on a fishing expedition through the Fed's records, to find something -- anything -- that can be used to justify more extreme measures. And when politicians go fishing, they always catch something.

ha, similar to the bush/cheney wmd fishing expedition...

354 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:02:09pm

re: #336 sattv4u2

I haven't seen any of it that has been "good" yet. Nothing that has/ will produce sustainable jobs. The economy is showing signs of turning around now even though the great majority of stimulus moneis won;t be in the pipeline for 1-2 years from now (again, mostly due to the stabilization of the banks. lending institutions. insurance companies due to TARP)

We won't know for sure what worked and what didn't for quite some time. Eventually historian and economists will look back and figure out what mistakes were made. I think it would be better for people to be open to the possibility that it wasn't all bad. We'll have to wait and see.

355 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:02:26pm

re: #338 Dianna

OK, try this series of terms:

Fundamentalist
Charismatic
Evangelical
Pentacostal

A "fundamentalist" is one who believes in a literal reading of a religious text. There are some comic elements to Christian fundamentalism - the ability of most sects to skip lightly over the law and read the books of history and the prophets selectively. But most (leaving aside reconstructionists and some other fringe readings) want to live their lives by Jesus' precepts as explained by Paul, Peter, John and James. This means, by the way, that there is no call to overthrow or even defy secular authority.

The Koran has some other issues.

I know what a Fundamentalist is. And I know that in the United States Christian fundamentalists see that strict interpretation of biblical law as one that should be imposed on the entire nation with the force of law. They don't want to overthrow secular authority, they believe the government should reflect Christian values. That being said, how is the imposition of Christian biblical law any less theocratic than Muslim Sharia law?

356 jaunte  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:02:43pm

Here are a couple of sources on Dominionist cult activity:
SPLC article:
[Link: www.splcenter.org...]
forum discussion:
[Link: forums.military.com...]

357 Erik The Red  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:02:45pm

re: #348 Danny

I agree, interest rates should not be mandated by the govt., but even free-market banks have to be transparent about their assets and liabilities. I would assume audits deal primarily with this, no? (Not arguing, just trying to learn.)

What would/should Congress do with the results/recommendations of this audit?

358 Kragar  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:03:14pm

re: #337 Ward Cleaver

You mean like overpressure?

/from a nuke

Any significant explosive effect will generate pressure, but once could say a nuke for arguements sake.

359 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:03:27pm

re: #345 Charles

Charles, I've got their position papers page up, and I see some things I think are not terribly rational, but I'm not seeing links to the dominionist position at all.

Assemblies of God Position Papers

360 neocon hippie  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:03:33pm

Back in the late 90's Gary North was a leading Y2K survivalist doomsayer. His nickname was "Scary Gary".

361 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:03:50pm
362 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:04:22pm

re: #343 Diego

One such is 'Jesus Camp'. I've heard there are many others, several being 'underground' organizations who feel there will be a Christian revolution and they will be called to fight in the streets. Sarah Palin is a member of a fraction..

Any source such as a link to a Web site?

363 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:04:26pm

re: #351 Eowyn2

Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's.
Christs teachings did not include world domination.

I didn't say Christ was the one seeking world domination. It's his fundamentalist followers who are seeking the imposition of Christian law on my secular country that I am worried about.

364 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:04:35pm

re: #355 drcordell

I know what a Fundamentalist is. And I know that in the United States Christian fundamentalists see that strict interpretation of biblical law as one that should be imposed on the entire nation with the force of law. They don't want to overthrow secular authority, they believe the government should reflect Christian values. That being said, how is the imposition of Christian biblical law any less theocratic than Muslim Sharia law?

It's not. Not less theocratic. Possibly less dangerous, since Sharia law demands so much eye-for-a-eye and other blood retribution.

But over all, not any different in concept.

365 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:04:47pm

re: #350 Sharmuta

And that relates to what I was asking about? Is there something that mentions sending their kids into the military to be soldiers of God?

366 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:04:59pm

re: #359 Dianna

Charles, I've got their position papers page up, and I see some things I think are not terribly rational, but I'm not seeing links to the dominionist position at all.

Assemblies of God Position Papers

They've been cleaning up their websites for the past few years after the negative publicity about "Joel's Army" and the "Children of God" thing. You're not going to find outright statements of Dominionism there any more.

367 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:05:15pm

re: #365 Dianna

And that relates to what I was asking about? Is there something that mentions sending their kids into the military to be soldiers of God?

Yes- if you follow the links.

368 HelloDare  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:05:15pm

re: #345 Charles

Palin was a long time attendee of an Assemblies of God church -- an extreme fundamentalist Pentecostal sect that is tied to the Dominionist/Reconstructionist movement.

She left that demonination in 2002. Whether she left her beliefs in the pew, who knows.

369 Eowyn2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:05:17pm

re: #316 Diego

And are they not the same who are sending their children to military can't to be 'soldiers for The Lord'?

Are you talking about the "Soldiers of the Lord" summer camp (and no, I don't know if that is the name of it) or are you talking about the US Military? The US Military is not a religious indocrination course. Neither of my military children are ultra religious.

370 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:05:52pm

re: #366 Charles

They've been cleaning up their websites for the past few years after the negative publicity about "Joel's Army" and the "Children of God" thing. You're not going to find outright statements of Dominionism there any more.

Isn't that dishonest? Not a very Christ-like thing to do.

371 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:05:53pm

re: #353 mt3_1234

ha, similar to the bush/cheney wmd fishing expedition...

Hi, hatchling.

Nice first post.

/

372 subsailor68  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:06:04pm

re: #361 buzzsawmonkey

See, if the cons spend the money on cigarettes, which are negotiable tender inside, then the taxes obtained from the cigarette sales will help fund new government initiatives.

You have to think these things through.

Oh duh! You're right! I can't believe I doubted the economic brilliance of our pols!

:-)

373 Lincolntf  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:06:14pm

re: #359 Dianna

Random factoid:
Elvis Presley was a member of an Assemblies of God Church. Bet he raised some eyebrows at the potluck suppers.

374 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:06:16pm

re: #369 Eowyn2

I am NOT talking about the US Military! :O

375 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:06:23pm

Wiki has a very interesting page on Rushdoony, including several (chilling, IMHO) quotes.

This particular one sent chills down my spine.

All men are NOT created equal before God... . Moreover, an employer has a property right to prefer whom he will in terms of 'color,' creed, race or national origin.

A distinct dislike is shown for the principles laid out in the Declaration of Independence. Moreover, he has expressed a desire to make interracial marrage illegal (as in the Jim Crow South). It is disgusting, IMHO, and if his ilk have more control on the right, I can see why Blacks would pause before supporting a Republican. These nuts need to be dumped from the right PDQ.

376 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:06:25pm

re: #355 drcordell

I know what a Fundamentalist is. And I know that in the United States Christian fundamentalists see that strict interpretation of biblical law as one that should be imposed on the entire nation with the force of law. They don't want to overthrow secular authority, they believe the government should reflect Christian values. That being said, how is the imposition of Christian biblical law any less theocratic than Muslim Sharia law?

I'm a Fundamentalist yet I don't believe any such things nor do any others that I know.

377 Danny  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:06:30pm

re: #357 Erik The Red

What would/should Congress do with the results/recommendations of this audit?

Assess whether or not the Federal Reserve isadhering to the Fed Reserve Act, I guess.

378 Land Shark  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:06:48pm

Fundamentalists of all religions are dangerous because many of them are so convinced they are divinely guided they will do anything their warped minds tell them God wants. And consequences are of no concern because, after all, they are merely doing what they think is God's will.

Yes, Christian fundamentalists have been mostly marginalized these days, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there looking for opportunities. And they are gaining some of that lost influence back. Like Muslim fundamentalists, they take the long view. You've got to keep an eye on them because they are as crazy as anybody. As an example, look at the anti-abortion types who believe murdering an abortion doctor or blowing up an abortion clinic is justifiable. They're out there, folks.

379 ladycatnip  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:07:22pm

#343 Diego

One such is 'Jesus Camp'. I've heard there are many others, several being 'underground' organizations who feel there will be a Christian revolution and they will be called to fight in the streets. Sarah Palin is a member of a fraction..

Ok, this blog is all about not going over the deep end on either side aisle. What you're saying is no different than Beck's histrionics toward the left.

380 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:07:37pm

re: #363 drcordell

I didn't say Christ was the one seeking world domination. It's his fundamentalist followers who are seeking the imposition of Christian law on my secular country that I am worried about.

How can one follow Christ yet want to do what He did not want to do?

381 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:08:02pm

re: #369 Eowyn2

Are you talking about the "Soldiers of the Lord" summer camp (and no, I don't know if that is the name of it) or are you talking about the US Military? The US Military is not a religious indocrination course. Neither of my military children are ultra religious.

Diego, you have been asked the same question several times.
Common courtesy dictates that you answer in some way.

382 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:08:07pm

re: #355 drcordell

I know what a Fundamentalist is. And I know that in the United States Christian fundamentalists see that strict interpretation of biblical law as one that should be imposed on the entire nation with the force of law. They don't want to overthrow secular authority, they believe the government should reflect Christian values. That being said, how is the imposition of Christian biblical law any less theocratic than Muslim Sharia law?

No, you don't know what a fundamentalist is, if you believe "that in the United States Christian fundamentalists see that strict interpretation of biblical law as one that should be imposed on the entire nation with the force of law", because the vast majority would look at you blankly, and many pastors would try to explain to you that the point is never to impose behavior, because that doesn't lead people to god.

You're assuming that the dominionist position is identical with most fundamentalists, whose main point is the old protestant cry of "Scripture only!".

The dominionists are scary. Most fundamentalists? Not so much.

383 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:08:12pm

re: #380 MandyManners

How can one follow Christ yet want to do what He did not want to do?

People seem to get it in their heads that they know better than Christ Himself what He wants us to do.

384 HelloDare  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:08:22pm

re: #239 Charles

Gary North is an especially bloodthirsty Christian Reconstructionist, who's in favor of the death penalty for adulterers, homosexuals, women who have abortions, and children who talk back to their parents. Not kidding.

And he wants that death penalty carried out by stoning. Again, not kidding.

[Link: www.reason.com...]

Okay, the stoning thing is a little over the top. /

385 Erik The Red  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:08:29pm

BBIAB. Girls can't walk home from school. :)

386 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:08:53pm

re: #380 MandyManners

How can one follow Christ yet want to do what He did not want to do?

Nothing in the greek scriptures indicate that Christ had any thought of "taken over the world."

Show me.

387 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:08:54pm

re: #385 Erik The Red

BBIAB. Girls can't walk home from school. :)

Heh.
Welcome home.

388 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:09:00pm

re: #380 MandyManners

How can one follow Christ yet want to do what He did not want to do?

You HIJACK a peaceful religion!!

Yipeee!!!

LULULULU!

389 FQ Kafir  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:09:02pm

My gosh, there are 282 co-sponsors in the House. Almost veto proof. Sheesh.

390 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:09:04pm

re: #379 ladycatnip

What you're saying is no different than Beck's histrionics toward the left.


Sorry, but I'm really not. That is their stated goal: theocracy in the US

391 MJ  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:09:04pm

re: #366 Charles

They've been cleaning up their websites for the past few years after the negative publicity about "Joel's Army" and the "Children of God" thing. You're not going to find outright statements of Dominionism there any more.

They are the major support for this deceitful group:

The National Jewish Fellowship also serves as a credible resource to help Assemblies of God churches and pastors develop a better understanding of the Jewish people and how to effectively reach them.

"We want pastors to become fellowship partners with us, and pastors who are Jewish to come alongside us as well," says Halpern. "I see the fellowship acting as a catalyst to planting more synagogues within the Assemblies of God and facilitating more [Messianic] fellowships within our churches."

[Link: ag.org...]

392 BlueCanuck  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:09:34pm

re: #381 opnion

Diego, you have been asked the same question several times.
Common courtesy dictates that you answer in some way.

He acted the same way this morning. You would think he got a clue then. I guess not.

393 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:10:09pm

re: #380 MandyManners

How can one follow Christ yet want to do what He did not want to do?

Ask the fundamentalist crazies, how should I know? You think Jesus would condone bombing abortion clinics in his name? Or the Crusades? Or any number of things that have been done in his name throughout history?

394 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:10:09pm

re: #389 FQ Kafir

My gosh, there are 282 co-sponsors in the House. Almost veto proof. Sheesh.

Very.

395 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:10:16pm

re: #381 opnion

I answered and several others have provided the links already above ^^

396 debutaunt  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:10:23pm

re: #235 drcordell

On purpose?!

397 jill e  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:10:39pm

re: #355 drcordell

FREE will.re: #355 drcordell

I know what a Fundamentalist is. And I know that in the United States Christian fundamentalists see that strict interpretation of biblical law as one that should be imposed on the entire nation with the force of law. They don't want to overthrow secular authority, they believe the government should reflect Christian values. That being said, how is the imposition of Christian biblical law any less theocratic than Muslim Sharia law?

The idea of FREE will. For Christians, belief in God/Jesus can not be forced by threats of death, injury, etc.

398 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:10:50pm

re: #343 Diego

One such is 'Jesus Camp'. I've heard there are many others, several being 'underground' organizations who feel there will be a Christian revolution and they will be called to fight in the streets. Sarah Palin is a member of a fraction..

Source? Please don't just keep repeating yourself, give us a source.

399 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:11:04pm

re: #390 Diego

Sorry, but I'm really not. That is their stated goal: theocracy in the US

And you have some links to this "fact?" Or are you just pulling this out of your butt?

Don't try to argue comparative religion with me unless you really understand the subject.

Ready to debate?

400 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:11:08pm

re: #360 neocon hippie

Back in the late 90's Gary North was a leading Y2K survivalist doomsayer. His nickname was "Scary Gary".

Also as noted on Gary North's Wiki page. Ironically, his middle name is Kilgore. He's also a scary character, IMHO, and he is the son-in-law of Rushdoony.

401 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:11:41pm

The Paulified Republican party marches on...
Activists call on Perry to follow through with secession

Rick Perry's talk of secession appears to have buoyed efforts by Texas secessionists who want the governor to follow through. At a rally Saturday on the Capitol steps, members of the of the Texas Nationalist Movement called on the governor and the Legislature to put a referendum on the state ballot on whether Texas should leave the union. At an anti-tax "tea party" protest in April, Perry touted states rights and raised the possibility of secession.

On Saturday, secessionist speakers denounced the federal government in general - and the Obama administration in particular. One speaker said, "We are aware that stepping off into secession may be a bloody war. We understand!"

Good luck with that.
/

402 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:11:44pm

re: #389 FQ Kafir

My gosh, there are 282 co-sponsors in the House. Almost veto proof. Sheesh.

Thanks for a link to a list of the culprits.

Look to the Senate to beat it.

403 Eowyn2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:11:53pm

re: #343 Diego

One such is 'Jesus Camp'. I've heard there are many others, several being 'underground' organizations who feel there will be a Christian revolution and they will be called to fight in the streets. Sarah Palin is a member of a fraction..

I've heard there are many rat people living under the earth. And Area 51 is really in the hinterlands of the Northwest Territories. Someday the aliens from area 51 are going to call the rat people (no relation to bat boy) to fight in the steests.

404 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:11:59pm

re: #367 Sharmuta

Yes- if you follow the links.

Sharm - for pity's sake! I'm following links on this thread! I've got 12 tabs open! I'm skimming as fast as I can!

Something specific, not a general thread! Help me out, here!

405 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:12:24pm

Again, others have provided the links above. Follow them and read if you want to. I'm not 'arguing comparative religion' and I have not in this thread.

406 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:12:29pm

re: #386 Walter L. Newton

Nothing in the greek scriptures indicate that Christ had any thought of "taken over the world."

Show me.

Precisely.

407 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:12:44pm

re: #395 Diego

I answered and several others have provided the links already above ^^

I'll give the link again. Problem is, the folks who click it are going to have to do some follow-up and click through to see the link that verifies your comment:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

408 SixDegrees  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:13:01pm

re: #11 scrubjay

What is wrong with a good idea, even if it comes from someone of whom you disapprove? The Fed should be subject to public scrutiny.

They already are subject to public scrutiny. Subjecting them to a Congressionally-directed audit, however, goes beyond scrutiny and directly to meddling, followed by futzing with monetary policy for political - rather than economic - reasons.

Congress is free to demand an independent audit be conducted if they feel that the weekly, monthly, quarterly and yearly briefings they already receive from the agency - along with any special briefings they request - are insufficient to ensure that the Fed is acting in good faith.

But that's not what they're doing here at all. Paul wants this to be a fishing expedition, dragging the books of the agency through the mud in hopes of finding something - anything - that can eventually be grossly exaggerated and promoted as an excuse to hamstring the agency with further investigation, ad infinitum or until the Fed is done away with, leaving monetary policy in the hands of 535 idiots who can't even tie their own shoes.

If they want more transparency - and it's hard to see how the Fed could possibly be more transparent than they already are - then they need to maintain the independence of the Fed from the other government branches at all costs.

Frank, of course, is wetting his pants over the opportunity to seize personal control of the funds the Fed currently controls. Wait until Frank starts deciding what interest rates "ought" to be, particularly in election years, or when payments on government debt interest start seeming a little too high.

409 3 wood  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:13:10pm

With regard to the issue of returning to the gold standard, it is silly to even consider doing so.

1. You never tie your currency to the quantity of some substance such as gold or silver. To do so limits your ability to manage your money supply to your ability to increase or decrease the amount of that substance available.

2. You also then subject your currency and monetary system to the whims of other countries who may hold a supply of that substance and decide to crater your currency by dumping it on the market.

3. You run the risk of turning over you foreign and monetary policy to other countries by default, if those other countries hold a large supply of that substance.

410 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:13:13pm

Iraq al Qaeda militant says Syria trained him

Bagel?

What's a bagel?

411 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:13:14pm

re: #366 Charles

They've been cleaning up their websites for the past few years after the negative publicity about "Joel's Army" and the "Children of God" thing. You're not going to find outright statements of Dominionism there any more.

Will checking the way back machine do me any good?

412 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:13:20pm

re: #390 Diego

Sorry, but I'm really not. That is their stated goal: theocracy in the US

PROOF?

413 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:13:23pm

re: #392 BlueCanuck

He acted the same way this morning. You would think he got a clue then. I guess not.

Tossing bombs & then moving on is really not impressive.
He has a point of view & that's cool, but making some dramatic charge &
then just not backing it up is useless.

414 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:13:46pm

It's not easy. As stated, they have 'cleansed' most of their websites.

415 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:13:58pm

re: #393 drcordell

Ask the fundamentalist crazies, how should I know? You think Jesus would condone bombing abortion clinics in his name? Or the Crusades? Or any number of things that have been done in his name throughout history?

Oh, for pity's sake.

416 Eowyn2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:14:12pm

re: #374 Diego

I am NOT talking about the US Military! :O


then please use the term 'militant' instead of Military. Words do mean things.
Your posts seem to be regarding militant Christians rather than fundamental Christians.

417 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:14:15pm

Excuse me for not taking on blind faith the claim that we shouldn't audit the Fed because it would be inflationary. The Fed's *standard activity* since its inception has been inflationary, and the 2009 dollar is worth 5% of what the 1914 dollar was. The plea "Don't audit the Fed, it will cause inflation!" is completely risible. The value of the dollar remained stable for about 150 years, and then started plummeting as soon as we allowed the Fed to dictate monetary policy.

I mean, come on, did you read that article? "When the central bank is not independent, politicians have historically pumped up the money supply (for temporary economic boost) shortly before an election to buy votes with a lower unemployment rate. After the election, the effects wear off, returning the economy to its natural rate of unemployment but at a higher inflation rate than before."?

No kidding, really? The Fed's been *doing exactly that*. Any claims to its 'independence' are completely fraudulent. It's *already* in bed with whoever's currently in power.

What nonsense . Read this, instead, and then blather about what a good job the Fed has done controlling inflation and being independent.


[Link: tcsdaily.com...]

418 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:14:25pm

re: #393 drcordell

Ask the fundamentalist crazies, how should I know? You think Jesus would condone bombing abortion clinics in his name? Or the Crusades? Or any number of things that have been done in his name throughout history?

Are you actually smearing all Fundamentalists with that brush?

419 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:14:30pm

re: #405 Diego

Again, others have provided the links above. Follow them and read if you want to. I'm not 'arguing comparative religion' and I have not in this thread.

Nope. You make claims, you get to back 'em up.

420 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:15:20pm

re: #411 Dianna

Will checking the way back machine do me any good?

Probably not. The Internet Archive respects robots.txt now, and I would well imagine that the AG official website would take whatever steps necessary to flush any damning information down the memory hole as effectively as possible. I do have to admit, I don't really like the direction the church has taken in recent years. (I guess I should probably start saying 'former' member by now, it's been that long.)

421 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:15:35pm

re: #416 Eowyn2

then please use the term 'militant' instead of Military. Words do mean things.
Your posts seem to be regarding militant Christians rather than fundamental Christians.

'Militant Christians' yes. Military Christians, such as Christians in the military, no.

422 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:15:42pm

I'm pretty sure JC would've been down with the Crusades.

Maybe not the pre-season games, but the regular season? Sure. Just not with the personal fouls, etc.

423 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:16:04pm

re: #395 Diego

I answered and several others have provided the links already above ^^

I joined the party late, so I'll ask again, are you saying parents are sending their kids to the U.S Military to be Soldiers for Jesus or some Christian Military Camp? It's a simple question.

424 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:16:10pm

re: #405 Diego

GAZE...

425 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:16:14pm

You do realize that the thing that the GOP would want more than anything would be a good fishing expedition to wag the dog.

After all, Obama will take the internet from you!!!

And your guns!!!

And kill your Grandma!!!

Imagine what cherrypicking the fed could give them.

If the GOP had any sense of duty to the nation that they claim to love, and actually wanted to serve America, rather than gain power, they might try to actually propose something that would work, rather than being the whiny party of no. If they had any actual morals, they might not keep making stuff up.


And another thing, every time the GOP gets the critique it so richly deserves, there is a knee jerk response from someone here about bad things the Dems have done. Guess what? That is irrelevant. If the Dems were selling the eyeballs of puppies to the Chinese black market, in return for the use of yak prostitutes, it would not in any way change the cesspit that the GOP has become.

Step one to fixing the world is fixing yourself.

Paul needs to be stopped. All of the crazy needs to be stopped, and the GOP needs to care more about America than itself.

426 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:16:42pm

re: #382 Dianna

No, you don't know what a fundamentalist is, if you believe "that in the United States Christian fundamentalists see that strict interpretation of biblical law as one that should be imposed on the entire nation with the force of law", because the vast majority would look at you blankly, and many pastors would try to explain to you that the point is never to impose behavior, because that doesn't lead people to god.

You're assuming that the dominionist position is identical with most fundamentalists, whose main point is the old protestant cry of "Scripture only!".

The dominionists are scary. Most fundamentalists? Not so much.

You're right to say that all fundamentalists should be lumped into the same theocratic group. But the simple fact remains that for the most part, many fundamentalists in America today are seeking to have their religious dogma imposed on the rest of the nation. Abortion, creationism and gay marriage are the three extremely obvious examples, but there are certainly many others.

427 ladycatnip  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:16:56pm

#390 Diego

Sorry, but I'm really not. That is their stated goal: theocracy in the US

I can quote you all day long on the stated goals of Marxists, Socialists and communists - and because Obama's politics and his close associations identify with those ideologies, by your logic then Beck must be right.

428 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:17:06pm

re: #398 Dianna

Source? Please don't just keep repeating yourself, give us a source.

I wonder if Diego saw the documentary "Jesus Camp" and thinks that's how all Christian children spend their summer vacations.

429 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:17:08pm

BBIAW

430 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:17:47pm

re: #423 opnion

It's a simple question

I have answer as simply as I can. Ask Charles, he seems to know more than me.

431 ladycatnip  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:18:09pm

drcordell

Using the Crusades as any kind of argument is more than old, it's ancient. Literally.

432 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:18:11pm

re: #422 Ben Hur

I'm pretty sure JC would've been down with the Crusades.

Maybe not the pre-season games, but the regular season? Sure. Just not with the personal fouls, etc.

Those Christians that wish to live under Mosaic Law seem to forget Jesus' words about the fist stone.

433 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:18:17pm

re: #409 3 wood

With regard to the issue of returning to the gold standard, it is silly to even consider doing so.

1. You never tie your currency to the quantity of some substance such as gold or silver. To do so limits your ability to manage your money supply to your ability to increase or decrease the amount of that substance available.

2. You also then subject your currency and monetary system to the whims of other countries who may hold a supply of that substance and decide to crater your currency by dumping it on the market.

3. You run the risk of turning over you foreign and monetary policy to other countries by default, if those other countries hold a large supply of that substance.


The bold part always baffled me. Why can't you just change how much an oz. of gold is worth in dollars? Doesn't seem any worse than printing more money in the current system?

(clearly I'm light on finance-fu ;-)

434 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:18:19pm

re: #425 LudwigVanQuixote

After all, Obama will take the internet from you!!!

BTW, this story came from C/NET, a very common, non-political tech site, not some right-wing blog.

435 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:18:33pm

re: #407 Sharmuta

I'll give the link again. Problem is, the folks who click it are going to have to do some follow-up and click through to see the link that verifies your comment:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I clicked through to more and more Kos articles, and finally a link to this movie, Jesus Camp.

Appreciate you providing that link Shar; but if Diego makes a statement, he should, like the rest of us, be prepared to provide his own links to back up what he says, instead of relying on you to provide a link to a link to a link to a link that may or may not be what he's talking about.

436 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:18:47pm

re: #430 Diego

I have answer as simply as I can. Ask Charles, he seems to know more than me.

I give up.

437 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:18:51pm

re: #432 Sharmuta

Those Christians that wish to live under Mosaic Law seem to forget Jesus' words about the fist stone.

Actually, a lot of the nutjob Christians I've seen seem to think they _are_ sinless. *snorts* As if.

438 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:19:00pm

re: #407 Sharmuta

I'll give the link again. Problem is, the folks who click it are going to have to do some follow-up and click through to see the link that verifies your comment:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Sharmuta, some of us have to work at the same time as we try to keep up with all this reading - I'm trying to keep up with what's linked on this thread. We don't have time to click through.

439 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:19:02pm

re: #432 Sharmuta

Those Christians that wish to live under Mosaic Law seem to forget Jesus' words about the fist stone.

He said, "Get stoned first?"

440 debutaunt  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:19:08pm

re: #382 Dianna

No, you don't know what a fundamentalist is, if you believe "that in the United States Christian fundamentalists see that strict interpretation of biblical law as one that should be imposed on the entire nation with the force of law", because the vast majority would look at you blankly, and many pastors would try to explain to you that the point is never to impose behavior, because that doesn't lead people to god.

You're assuming that the dominionist position is identical with most fundamentalists, whose main point is the old protestant cry of "Scripture only!".

The dominionists are scary. Most fundamentalists? Not so much.

Well, many do fear Mandy.

441 Neutral President  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:19:18pm

re: #409 3 wood

And an increase in human capital and productivity cannot cause an increase in the underlying commodity the currency is based on leading to massive deflation. (Seriously, I don't even get how economic growth can occur in such a monetary system, at least not without deflation.)

And when you have a serious trade imbalance with another nation, all of that commodity ends up going to that nation eventually, leaving us with nothing.

442 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:19:25pm

re: #417 Phanatic

Oh, no. Blind faith is not enough for you. You'll take the word of this guy, though:

Erik Voorhees is an American expatriate living in the emirate of Dubai since January 2008. He attended The University of Puget Sound near Seattle, Washington, studying Business Leadership and International Political Economics. Other than markets, trade, and politics, Erik is also a fond devotee of the international house music and club scene. As a DJ and producer, he always enjoys a good night out in the clubs. His goal is to become rich and powerful so he can help the world in all the right ways. Erik Voorhees is a member of The Free State Project (freestateproject.org) and plans to move to New Hampshire by the end of 2010.

Are you in New Hampshire yet?

443 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:19:27pm

re: #418 MandyManners

Are you actually smearing all Fundamentalists with that brush?

No, I was asked how people could do something in Jesus/God's name that he seemingly did not approve of. And my response was that plenty of things are done in God's name that God probably wouldn't approve of.

444 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:19:31pm

re: #417 Phanatic

Is that you, Erik?

445 lawhawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:19:39pm

re: #425 LudwigVanQuixote

No, but you'd have to choose the evil of two lessers. That's what voting in the country has been like for me. Who do I vote for isn't a question of who's got the best skills and ideas. It's who's got the fewest skeletons in the closet. It's who's least likely to be corrupt and be charged with criminal acts.

Practically the only affirmative question that I asked in the past two elections was who would do a better job of keeping the nation safe. I still think Obama is not up to the task, but I hope he excels on that front. I fear that he wont, and his policies appear to be undermining US national security in the long run.

446 Kragar  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:19:56pm

re: #432 Sharmuta

Those Christians that wish to live under Mosaic Law seem to forget Jesus' words about the fist stone.

"Mom, put that down. You're not helping."

447 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:20:01pm

re: #428 doppelganglander

I wonder if Diego saw the documentary "Jesus Camp" and thinks that's how all Christian children spend their summer vacations.

Must be, I couldn't even get my kids into the local Jesus Camp this past summer. And I purchased 2 new automatic rifles for them, in hopes that it would help.

You just wouldn't believe the waiting list for our local Jesus Camp. We have good white Christian boys and girls taking on phony names like Gabriel and Mary in hopes that it gets them some edge.

//

448 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:20:10pm

re: #438 Dianna

Sharmuta, some of us have to work at the same time as we try to keep up with all this reading - I'm trying to keep up with what's linked on this thread. We don't have time to click through.

And, if it's not a link Diego has provided in support of what he says, how can we know this is the specific one that he's talking about?

449 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:20:25pm

re: #442 wrenchwench

Oh, no. Blind faith is not enough for you. You'll take the word of this guy, though:

Are you in New Hampshire yet?

Any relation to Jason?

450 mfarmer1  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:20:40pm

This stuff is way over my head. With that said, when Ron Paul and Barney Frank seem to be in agreement, it can't be good.

OTOH, there seems to be something wrong with the process when our central banking system is immune from audits, especially given its role over the last year or so. Then again, who does the audits? If it's Congress, then, uh, yeah, I guess it needs to be immune.

The whole financial system now seems so diseased and corrupt and I doubt that it's readily fixable anyway at this point.

451 HelloDare  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:20:45pm

re: #428 doppelganglander

I wonder if Diego saw the documentary "Jesus Camp" and thinks that's how all Christian children spend their summer vacations.


Sure. And all liberal kids spend their summers like this. /

Youtube Video
452 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:20:49pm

re: #430 Diego

Indoctrination via "Jesus Camps"!

How do you feel about this kind of "indoctrination"?

Youtube Video
453 ladycatnip  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:21:06pm

#414 Diego

It's not easy. As stated, they have 'cleansed' most of their websites.

You're starting to sound a little paranoid there, buddy.

454 Eowyn2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:21:09pm

re: #399 Walter L. Newton

And you have some links to this "fact?" Or are you just pulling this out of your butt?

Don't try to argue comparative religion with me unless you really understand the subject.

Ready to debate?


I tried that once and you beat me like a rug.

455 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:21:21pm

re: #418 MandyManners

Are you actually smearing all Fundamentalists with that brush?

Why, yes. Yes, he is.

It's an interesting viewpoint, if not terribly useful.

456 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:21:24pm

re: #434 Spenser (with an S)

BTW, this story came from C/NET, a very common, non-political tech site, not some right-wing blog.

And the story in CNET was that the language of the actual bill was the use of private computing capacity in the case of national emergency, major cyber attack or national disaster if the govt's net had been compromised.

It is a perfectly sensible bill.

Fox on the other hand needed to make it sound like Obama was going to take over the internet, which is a curious position for them seeing as they were all for the government reading every mail you write when Bush actually was being big brother.

457 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:21:25pm

re: #31 Charles

Auditing the Fed Is Economic Suicide.

Not just that, but even if there were merit to it (which there ain't) -- what sort of blazing idiot does it take to call for a fed audit when the Dems would control the fishing expedition, the bait, the boat, and the pole?

458 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:21:41pm

re: #451 HelloDare

gmta ,,, #452,,, the same, only a different group

459 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:21:42pm

re: #457 Thanos

Not just that, but even if there were merit to it (which there ain't) -- what sort of blazing idiot does it take to call for a fed audit when the Dems would control the fishing expedition, the bait, the boat, and the pole?

Ron Paul.

460 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:22:09pm

re: #435 reine.de.tout

Thanks for taking the time to click through. I should perhaps let the newbie provide his own links, but then, I also get frustrated when anyone can't check google for themselves. I checked google for "palin + dominionism" and LGF was the 4th link and I clicked through and read.

From now on I'm checking LGF search first, by the way.

461 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:22:21pm

re: #439 Ben Hur

He said, "Get stoned first?"

That calls for this:

Youtube Video
462 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:22:34pm

re: #440 debutaunt

Well, many do fear Mandy.

Not because of my faith.

463 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:22:50pm

I really think Ron Paul was born stone stupid and got crazy afterwards. Some say it's the other way around.

464 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:22:51pm

re: #425 LudwigVanQuixote

Please go tell that to Barney Frank.

465 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:23:33pm

re: #426 drcordell

You're right to say that all fundamentalists should be lumped into the same theocratic group. But the simple fact remains that for the most part, many fundamentalists in America today are seeking to have their religious dogma imposed on the rest of the nation. Abortion, creationism and gay marriage are the three extremely obvious examples, but there are certainly many others.

Christians have as much right as anyone else to support candidates that are sympathetic to their positions and to try to pass legislation to enact those beliefs. They are not trying to overthrow the government; they are working within our country's legal system. If you don't like it, support other candidates.

466 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:23:36pm

Gotta' go remove the sand from my shorts.

467 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:23:39pm

re: #460 Sharmuta

From now on I'm checking LGF search first, by the way

Let that be a lesson to you (in bed) missy!

468 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:24:07pm

re: #462 MandyManners

Not because of my faith.

No.

Because of your car.

469 opnion  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:24:28pm

re: #447 Walter L. Newton

Must be, I couldn't even get my kids into the local Jesus Camp this past summer. And I purchased 2 new automatic rifles for them, in hopes that it would help.

You just wouldn't believe the waiting list for our local Jesus Camp. We have good white Christian boys and girls taking on phony names like Gabriel and Mary in hopes that it gets them some edge.

//

Actually, I prefer the Underground Knights Templar Clubs.
Like the Knights of Columbus, you get breaks on alcohol, but you
get to plot World domination too.The pizza could be better.

470 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:24:32pm

re: #417 Phanatic

The article you link to is written by an outright extremist loon named Erik Voorhees

Erik Voorhees is an American expatriate living in the emirate of Dubai since January 2008. He attended The University of Puget Sound near Seattle, Washington, studying Business Leadership and International Political Economics. Other than markets, trade, and politics, Erik is also a fond devotee of the international house music and club scene. As a DJ and producer, he always enjoys a good night out in the clubs. His goal is to become rich and powerful so he can help the world in all the right ways. Erik Voorhees is a member of The Free State Project (freestateproject-dot-org) and plans to move to New Hampshire by the end of 2010.

471 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:24:55pm

We'll be in trouble when the Chinese ask that the Fed be audited, because they want to check on where they've lent money.

Or maybe they are starting to put pressure on congressmen to do this without making it obvious.

472 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:25:07pm

re: #442 wrenchwench

Heh, ya beat me to that one.

473 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:25:25pm

re: #451 HelloDare

Sure. And all liberal kids spend their summers like this. /


and this.

Youtube Video

//

474 SixDegrees  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:25:25pm

re: #457 Thanos

Not just that, but even if there were merit to it (which there ain't) -- what sort of blazing idiot does it take to call for a fed audit when the Dems would control the fishing expedition, the bait, the boat, and the pole?

Precisely the problem. Congress already requires audits of the Fed on a regular basis - it's one of the reasons the Fed Chairmen spend so much time testifying before Congressional committees, as they seek to comply with existing auditing requirements.

Paul, of course, being a snake, leaves this piece of information out of his tirades, and attempts to leave the impression that the Fed is completely without oversight even though he knows very well this is a lie.

If something got left out of the current auditing process, by all means fix it. But putting Congress in charge of monetary policy, either through implicit or explicit control of the Fed, is the most remarkably stupid and bad idea even Congress has managed to puke forth in years.

475 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:25:27pm

re: #428 doppelganglander

I wonder if Diego saw the documentary "Jesus Camp" and thinks that's how all Christian children spend their summer vacations.

Maybe? I remember that documentary.

476 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:25:35pm

When you think about it, it's really fascinating where these radical theocratic Christian groups keep sprouting up- intelligent design, doctor killings, auditing the Fed...

Weird.

477 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:25:38pm

re: #471 Kosh's Shadow

We'll be in trouble when the Chinese ask that the Fed be audited, because they want to check on where they've lent money.

Or maybe they are starting to put pressure on congressmen to do this without making it obvious.

Funny ,,, Luap Nor doesn't LOOK Asian!

478 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:25:44pm

re: #460 Sharmuta

Thanks for taking the time to click through. I should perhaps let the newbie provide his own links, but then, I also get frustrated when anyone can't check google for themselves. I checked google for "palin + dominionism" and LGF was the 4th link and I clicked through and read.

From now on I'm checking LGF search first, by the way.

I clicked a couple of dead ends, and then finally the right one, and then links through that I found the movie.

And yes, LGF search first would be best. And if Diego makes a claim, he needs to provide his own link so we don't have to guess at what it is he's talking about. I'm still not sure the "Jesus camp" movie I found was what he was talking about.

479 Neutral President  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:26:18pm

re: #468 Ben Hur

No.

Because of your car.

The greatest part of that van: "Santa Claus"

480 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:26:27pm

re: #468 Ben Hur

No.

Because of your car.

On I-65, the route I sometimes take driving back home to fish country, there's a massive billboard that reads "HELL IS REAL" (yes, all capitals) on one side. Every time I drive by it, I shake my head and sigh. The Mrs. Fish has long since learned not to get me started on that subject.

481 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:26:42pm

re: #472 Killgore Trout

Don't miss Mandy's #444.

482 Eowyn2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:26:55pm

re: #393 drcordell

Ask the fundamentalist crazies, how should I know? You think Jesus would condone bombing abortion clinics in his name? Or the Crusades? Or any number of things that have been done in his name throughout history?

You do realize:
the number of people who condone bombing abortion clinics is extremely low?
the first Crusades were fought to stop the Muslim religion from spreading to Europe?

Many evil things have been done in Jesus name. Many evil things have been done in Stalin's name as well. Where evil resides, an excuse is generally not needed.

483 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:26:58pm

re: #443 drcordell

And my response was that plenty of things are done in God's name that God probably wouldn't approve of.

While I don't know if you're really asking a question to enlighten yourself, I'll give you my take. Everything people do is flawed in some way and a shadow of what it should be because of sin and our free will. 95% of Christians (even Fundies) know this and our only difference is that we know how messed up we are and ask for forgiveness. All human foibles and flaws are still there and need to be fought against every day. Don't let those fringe few blind you to all the good that is done every day in the name of Someone you don't believe in.

484 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:27:01pm

re: #478 reine.de.tout

To be fair- I first provided that link for Kenneth's question.

485 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:27:18pm

re: #477 sattv4u2

Funny ,,, Luap Nor doesn't LOOK Asian!

He's the loony Manchurian candidate

486 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:28:00pm

re: #484 Sharmuta

To be fair- I first provided that link for Kenneth's question.

Ah. OK.

487 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:28:23pm

re: #465 doppelganglander

Christians have as much right as anyone else to support candidates that are sympathetic to their positions and to try to pass legislation to enact those beliefs. They are not trying to overthrow the government; they are working within our country's legal system. If you don't like it, support other candidates.

Where did I say anywhere that Fundamentalist Christians don't have a right to believe what they believe. I hate having words put in my mouth. I also never said they are trying to overthrow the Government. I said they are trying to impose a theocracy using the existing framework of our Government. You seem to acknowledge this by admitting they are passing legislation to enact their beliefs.

I don't like it, and I am accurately labeling it theocracy. And yes I will support other candidates. But I have never said they are not entitled to their beliefs. What I am saying is that the Constitution does not grant the right to have your religious beliefs imposed on others using the force of law. The Constitution explicitly forbade this.

488 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:28:35pm

re: #470 Killgore Trout

The article you link to is written by an outright extremist loon named Erik Voorhees

Way to engage in poisoning the well. Facts stand or fall on their own, and not on the residency or DJ-ing activities of those who state them.

Paul's an idiot, but the notion that the Fed's ability to control inflation will somehow be jeopardized by an audit is asinine. Controlling inflation is the last thing the Fed has ever tried to do or accomplished.

Seriously, did you just say his claims should be discounted because he enjoys a night out at the clubs? That's some mighty fine intellectual honesty you have going on there.

489 collegeguy85  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:28:35pm

I posted the article on facebook with this after my name "has an article for those that think auditing the Fed is a good idea. "

My uber-libertarian friend who has Ron Paul all over his van had this as a reply.

"Hey Michael, thanks for posting this. It really caused me to stop and think for a minute."


Shocked doesn't even begin to describe it. Great article, thanks for posting it Charles.

490 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:28:44pm

re: #456 LudwigVanQuixote


And the story in CNET was that the language of the actual bill was the use of private computing capacity in the case of national emergency, major cyber attack or national disaster if the govt's net had been compromised.

Why were the editors and privacy advocates nervous about it?

491 Neutral President  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:29:12pm

re: #480 thedopefishlives

On I-65, the route I sometimes take driving back home to fish country, there's a massive billboard that reads "HELL IS REAL" (yes, all capitals) on one side. Every time I drive by it, I shake my head and sigh. The Mrs. Fish has long since learned not to get me started on that subject.

Someone should spray paint "You're there now" under it.

/I mean planet Earth. No offense to people in Kentucky where that sign is.

492 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:29:30pm

re: #454 Eowyn2

I tried that once and you beat me like a rug.

Well, it wasn't meant to be mean on my part. Am an atheist, but I can't stand when someone says this Christian group said this, or teaches that, or will do this when it's not true and there is no basis in theology or practice. Same thing for non-christian religions or what ever.

Dr. Cordell and Diego are using unfounded and non-factual speaking points, which I've heard time and time again. It's boring.

493 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:29:40pm

re: #475 Dianna

and thinks that's how all Christian children spend their summer vacations

I never said anything of the sort. I didn't even imply it.

494 debutaunt  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:29:41pm

re: #462 MandyManners

Not because of my faith.

Absolutely not because of that.

495 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:30:29pm

re: #492 Walter L. Newton

Well, it wasn't meant to be mean on my part. Am an atheist, but I can't stand when someone says this Christian group said this, or teaches that, or will do this when it's not true and there is no basis in theology or practice. Same thing for non-christian religions or what ever.

Dr. Cordell and Diego are using unfounded and non-factual speaking points, which I've heard time and time again. It's boring.

What? So I'm imagining the fundamentalist push in several states to have creationism taught in public schools? Or abortion outlawed? Or gay marriage banned?

496 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:30:34pm

re: #480 thedopefishlives

On I-65, the route I sometimes take driving back home to fish country, there's a massive billboard that reads "HELL IS REAL" (yes, all capitals) on one side. Every time I drive by it, I shake my head and sigh. The Mrs. Fish has long since learned not to get me started on that subject.

It's frozen too.

497 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:30:34pm

re: #493 Diego

I never said anything of the sort. I didn't even imply it.

Of course you did.

498 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:30:47pm

re: #488 Phanatic

I guess he or she wants to talk to you, Killgore. He or she ignored me & Mandy.

499 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:31:23pm

re: #495 drcordell

What? So I'm imagining the fundamentalist push in several states to have creationism taught in public schools? Or abortion outlawed? Or gay marriage banned?

Yawn. Oh, by the way... BOO!

500 Eowyn2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:31:43pm

re: #407 Sharmuta

I'll give the link again. Problem is, the folks who click it are going to have to do some follow-up and click through to see the link that verifies your comment:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Its the whole "underground Christian revolutionists waiting to come forth and pillage through the countryside that I am interested in seeing the proof on."

501 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:31:59pm

re: #497 Walter L. Newton

Of course you did.

Show me where I said all Christians do this? Go on, I'll wait here.

502 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:32:06pm

re: #476 Sharmuta

When you think about it, it's really fascinating where these radical theocratic Christian groups keep sprouting up- intelligent design, doctor killings, auditing the Fed...

Weird.

What I find really fascinating is that they're the exact same people. The overlap makes me blink.

They're the fringe of a fringe of a fringe. It's like a funnel for taking one's religious beliefs over the cliff.

Fortunately, it's a really tiny funnel, and not many seem to get there.

503 Randall Gross  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:32:14pm

re: #488 Phanatic

See my note about who controls the political fishing expedition

504 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:32:35pm

re: #493 Diego

I never said anything of the sort. I didn't even imply it.

You're quoting someone else. I didn't say that.

505 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:33:00pm

re: #502 Dianna

What I find really fascinating is that they're the exact same people. The overlap makes me blink.

They're the fringe of a fringe of a fringe. It's like a funnel for taking one's religious beliefs over the cliff.

Fortunately, it's a really tiny funnel, and not many seem to get there.

The problem is, they have a really loud bullhorn. Almost Alex Jones-ish.

506 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:33:59pm

re: #499 Walter L. Newton

Yawn. Oh, by the way... BOO!

What's your problem? You attack me as making statements that aren't factual, and then get snide with me instead of backing your statement up. It's documented in this thread, and all over LGF that there are plenty of fundamentalists in this country seeking to impose their beliefs. The examples I provided are not far-fetched. Explain to me how exactly I'm wrong?

507 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:34:25pm

re: #504 Dianna

Apologies. My quote caught you and not doppl.

508 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:35:51pm

Maybe Kilgore and Wrenchwrench can both find the same document to copy-and-paste from to attack similar facts from Cyd Malone, here:

[Link: mises.org...]

The value of the dollar dropped *40%* during Volker's tenre. The value of the dollar dropped *44%* during Greenspan's tenure. It's continued to drop during Bernankes. If you seriously want to claim that the Fed has been successful at controlling inflation, provide some evidence to counter the fact that a US dollar in 1910 bought pretty much the same amount of goods and services as it did in 1850 (in fact, it bought slightly more).

That's how rational people decide which policies to adopt: reason and evidence. Not by pointing out that oh, Cyd Malone, he likes drum-and-bass and popping nitrate when he's not matriculating in public.

509 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:35:53pm

re: #501 Diego

Show me where I said all Christians do this? Go on, I'll wait here.

I already did, you can find the links above. I saw it.

510 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:36:33pm

re: #506 drcordell

What's your problem? You attack me as making statements that aren't factual, and then get snide with me instead of backing your statement up. It's documented in this thread, and all over LGF that there are plenty of fundamentalists in this country seeking to impose their beliefs. The examples I provided are not far-fetched. Explain to me how exactly I'm wrong?

Double yawn.

511 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:36:42pm

re: #502 Dianna

What I find really fascinating is that they're the exact same people. The overlap makes me blink.

They're the fringe of a fringe of a fringe. It's like a funnel for taking one's religious beliefs over the cliff.

Fortunately, it's a really tiny funnel, and not many seem to get there.

I agree with you there, and I certainly apologize if I ever gave the implication that I was lumping you in with the crazies. The problem IMHO is that this fringe 1% has been completely mainstreamed due to the combination of talk radio / cable news / the interwebs.

512 voirdire  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:37:06pm

Currently, the Fed is not subject to political influence or Christianity.

513 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:37:13pm

re: #487 drcordell

I said they are trying to impose a theocracy using the existing framework of our Government.

Even those trying to do that are a tiny fringe.

Most people - even those who go to church and bible study - have no urge toward theocracy. None.

"In the world, but not of it" should ring some bells for you. Or not, as you prefer.

514 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:37:14pm

From back when I blogged at the time of the Califormnia Recall, Tom McClintock had a reconstructionist named John Stoos running his campaign. For a while I no one noticed.

[Link: karmic_inquisition.blogspot.com...]

[Link: karmic_inquisition.blogspot.com...]

He was still the campaign manager for a while longer -

[Link: karmic_inquisition.blogspot.com...]

Then the story started getting around

[Link: karmic_inquisition.blogspot.com...]

[Link: karmic_inquisition.blogspot.com...]

Then the civil war within the state republican Party started up -

[Link: karmic_inquisition.blogspot.com...]

Then the SoCons started in on the "Let's lose so everyone will realize how important we are" meme

[Link: karmic_inquisition.blogspot.com...]

[Link: karmic_inquisition.blogspot.com...]

And now we get to reiterate on a national scale - except for one thing: there are no non-SoCon potential candidates for POTUS on the Republican side.

Ready for 8 years of Obama?

515 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:37:42pm

re: #510 Walter L. Newton

Double yawn.

Just trying to get you to answer one question here, since you're obvious *very tired*.

You don't acknowledge the push to force creationism into public schools?

516 Eowyn2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:38:11pm

re: #462 MandyManners

Not because of my faith.


its that damn big clue by four.

517 ladycatnip  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:38:12pm

#495 drcordell

What? So I'm imagining the fundamentalist push in several states to have creationism taught in public schools? Or abortion outlawed? Or gay marriage banned?

The likelihood of creationism being taught is nil. The ACLU drools over the opportunity to take on cases such as that - they will, and they will win. Abortion outlawed? I'm not a fundamentalist and I'm opposed to abortion, in fact I know a few atheists who oppose abortion. This thread isn't about any of the above and it's pointless to get derailed into a ridiculous rabbit trail.

Your fear of the fundies is on the same par as those on the right who see everything Obama does as part of a big conspiracy. You're all fringies, birthers, nirthers, etc.

518 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:38:28pm

re: #509 Walter L. Newton

You are incorrect. I never said ALL of anything. I didn't even say, or imply most, or even a large group. I'm a Christian, as are my children, and we certainly are not members of any such group of nuts.

You're free to believe what you like, just not attribute statements to me which I have not made and would never make.

519 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:38:51pm

re: #515 drcordell

Just trying to get you to answer one question here, since you're obvious *very tired*.

You don't acknowledge the push to force creationism into public schools?

That's creating and setting up a theocracy? You are easily frightened.

520 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:39:05pm

re: #508 Phanatic

Correlation does not equal causation. What was Government spending like when the dollar was losing value? What was spending like when the dollar's value went up?

521 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:39:09pm

re: #503 Thanos

See my note about who controls the political fishing expedition

That's a much more compelling counterargument, yes. But the Fed's rolled over for whatever politicians are in control at the moment any way, so I'm still not too persuaded by the notion that their 'independence' will be jeopardized by an audit. The Fed's already spent years wiping out Americans' savings ([Link: www.wisebread.com...] in order to help the approval ratings of whoever's in Congress or the White House anyway.

522 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:39:13pm

re: #518 Diego

You are incorrect. I never said ALL of anything. I didn't even say, or imply most, or even a large group. I'm a Christian, as are my children, and we certainly are not members of any such group of nuts.

You're free to believe what you like, just not attribute statements to me which I have not made and would never make.

Yes you did. I can prove it.

523 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:39:48pm

Now as to the Jesus freaks (which is a purposefully pejorative label that I use to distinguish them from the kind, and decent folks known as Christians) and the Paulinas and the nirthers and the deathers and the gun toting folks, the moronic convergence is all based on fear of losing power and position.

Please let me define Jesus Freak so that my real points do not get lost in quibbling over that phrase. Jesus Freaks are your anti-evolution, think it is ok to bomb abortion clinics, think that gay marriage is a bigger threat to marriage than heterosexual divorce rates, love the death penalty types.
They are strongly correlated with notions of white supremacy, but there is an overlap there, rather than a definition. Also, to prevent useless quibbling about the phrase Jesus freak, there are also psycho-Orthodox Jews and there are also Jihadis.

Now to the real point.

It was OK for Bush to abuse the Constitution because he was a white Christian, whose language pandered to the Jesus freaks. The overall whacko sphere, even when not religious, is deluded that America is defined as a white Christian country (as in theirs, and they do not want to share). However the whackos in a perfect case of projection, believe that a black president with strong secular support can only mean that the abuses of power that the far right would happily use against secular people, might now be applied to themselves.

They are very afraid of losing a perceived entitlement.

Buchanan states it all too well when he goes on about America being founded by white Christian men.

The GOP leadership, realizing that it can not face the Dems with ideas of their own, has decided that embracing and fanning these fears in their base is a more effective route to power.

There was a time in American history where fear of loss of position coupled with racial fear was heavily exploited before. That was 1861. And yes, there is also a nullify the federal government thread moving through this crazy today as well.

For the GOP to legitimatize the absolute worst threads in American history and to risk a resurgence of those threads to the mainstream - hell, to egg it on - is a gross treason.

524 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:39:56pm

re: #488 Phanatic

He's an anti American loon who would rather live in Dubai than the US. He's only coming back because he has revolutionary fantasies and join anti-government militias in New Hampshire. He's a dick and a loon.

525 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:39:57pm

re: #501 Diego

Show me where I said all Christians do this? Go on, I'll wait here.

You implied it. Strongly.

Or maybe we're confusing you with drcordell?

526 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:40:29pm

re: #513 Dianna

Even those trying to do that are a tiny fringe.

Most people - even those who go to church and bible study - have no urge toward theocracy. None.

"In the world, but not of it" should ring some bells for you. Or not, as you prefer.

I understand this. But the problem is that the fringe voices have been completely mainstreamed as I stated above. And right now at least, there are many "values" voters who may not share in the fundamentalist crazies viewpoints, but continue to support the politicians pandering to the crazies.

If you don't necessarily hold a rabid viewpoint with regard to creationism, but don't mind endorsing a candidate who does, it has the same overall effect. Until the moderates begin refusing to support politicians that pander to the 1%, their views will be mainstream.

527 INFDL  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:40:29pm

Yes, Paul is a whackbot, but should the Fed really be buying Treasuries and maintaining a zero-rate policy for ever? I'm down with more knowlege of the sausage-making process, but the ensuing witch-hunt would be scary. Alas, I am on the fence on this one.

528 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:40:56pm

re: #487 drcordell

Where did I say anywhere that Fundamentalist Christians don't have a right to believe what they believe. I hate having words put in my mouth. I also never said they are trying to overthrow the Government. I said they are trying to impose a theocracy using the existing framework of our Government. You seem to acknowledge this by admitting they are passing legislation to enact their beliefs.

I don't like it, and I am accurately labeling it theocracy. And yes I will support other candidates. But I have never said they are not entitled to their beliefs. What I am saying is that the Constitution does not grant the right to have your religious beliefs imposed on others using the force of law. The Constitution explicitly forbade this.

According to Wikipedia, and backed up by Merriam Webster, "A theocracy is a form of government in which a god or deity is recognized as the state's supreme civil ruler, or in a broader sense, a form of government in which a state is governed by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided." Saudi Arabia is a theocracy. There may be a very few fundamentalists who want to replace the Constitution with the Bible, but that is not the goal of the vast majority of politically active Christians. Your anti-Christian paranoia leads you to mischaracterize and exaggerate their influence.

529 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:41:30pm

re: #525 Dianna

Understandable. Replys are flying fast and free.

530 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:43:12pm

re: #526 drcordell

I understand this. But the problem is that the fringe voices have been completely mainstreamed as I stated above. And right now at least, there are many "values" voters who may not share in the fundamentalist crazies viewpoints, but continue to support the politicians pandering to the crazies.

If you don't necessarily hold a rabid viewpoint with regard to creationism, but don't mind endorsing a candidate who does, it has the same overall effect. Until the moderates begin refusing to support politicians that pander to the 1%, their views will be mainstream.

Yea I know, it's so mainstream that I think there is a bill running through -congress to set up a new tabernacle next to the Washington Monument so those Christians can put the Ark of the Covenant that the government is hiding back on display.

It's getting scary, isn't it?

531 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:43:36pm

re: #508 Phanatic

Maybe Kilgore and Wrenchwrench can both find the same document to copy-and-paste from to attack similar facts from Cyd Malone, here:


OK, here's my attempt at it:

Admittedly, every four years I'd do my civic duty and throw my vote down the Libertarian Party's maw. That's as far as my active support for the libertarian crowd went until last Friday night, when I wrote a relatively large check in support of Ron Paul, allowing me entrée into a private reception held at a fabulously gorgeous penthouse in New York City.

532 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:43:55pm

re: #524 Killgore Trout

He's an anti American loon who would rather live in Dubai than the US. He's only coming back because he has revolutionary fantasies and join anti-government militias in New Hampshire. He's a dick and a loon.

Have you ever been to Dubai? Pretty plush especially if compared to, oh, say Detroit~!

//only semi!

533 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:44:20pm

re: #493 Diego

I never said anything of the sort. I didn't even imply it.

Dianna didn't say that. That was me, replying to her. I was saying you seem to have some vague idea, unsupported by any facts, that Christians are putting their children through paramilitary training in preparation for Armageddon. Or something - your posts are not models of clarity.

534 Eowyn2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:44:25pm

re: #492 Walter L. Newton

Well, it wasn't meant to be mean on my part. Am an atheist, but I can't stand when someone says this Christian group said this, or teaches that, or will do this when it's not true and there is no basis in theology or practice. Same thing for non-christian religions or what ever.

Dr. Cordell and Diego are using unfounded and non-factual speaking points, which I've heard time and time again. It's boring.

I survived. It wasn't all that bad. You just are well educated in a variety of religious doctrines.

535 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:44:31pm

re: #529 Diego

Understandable. Replys are flying fast and free.

I can prove it.

536 3 wood  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:44:49pm

re: #433 eschew_obfuscation

The bold part always baffled me. Why can't you just change how much an oz. of gold is worth in dollars? Doesn't seem any worse than printing more money in the current system?

(clearly I'm light on finance-fu ;-)

How often are you willing to reclaibrate, every day?

One of the functions of money is to serve as a reliable storage mechanism for accumulated wealth. If you tie your currency to some substance (commonly referred to as specie money) and then revalue every day, no one will want to hold your currency.

537 Diego  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:45:17pm

re: #535 Walter L. Newton

Go bait someone else for a while.

538 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:46:22pm

re: #505 thedopefishlives

The problem is, they have a really loud bullhorn. Almost Alex Jones-ish.

I'll tell you what's funny - I sent my brother (he's a fundy - boo!) a bunch of the links and stories, and asked him what he'd heard about it.

He had never heard of half these groups, and asked his pastor (Foursquare Gospel affiliation - booga! booga!) about them. The pastor knew about - and supported - the Discovery Institute, but made it very clear to my brother and his wife that it was not something he'd insist on in his church. The pastor had not heard of "dominionist" or "reconstructionist" except as a subject at a conference, as something that was very disturbing. As to abortion - the pastor strongly condemned anyone who commits an act of violence, and suggested more support and adoption as the way to combat abortion.

So, there.

539 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:46:38pm

re: #520 Sharmuta

Correlation does not equal causation. What was Government spending like when the dollar was losing value? What was spending like when the dollar's value went up?

Image: File:Us_federal_spending%284%29.png

That's the point. The Fed has, since its inception, been a way for the government to increase spending by the simple expedient of debasing the currency. And now they're getting even cleverer about it:

[Link: www.zerohedge.com...]

"These are the three critical points to remember as you read further:

1. The US government has record amounts of Treasuries to sell.
2. Foreign central banks, which have a big pile of agency bonds in their custody account, would like to help but want to keep things somewhat under the radar to avoid scaring the debt markets.
3. The Federal Reserve does not want to be seen directly buying US government debt at auctions (and in fact is not permitted to, but many rules have been 'bent' worse during this crisis), because that could upset the whole illusion that there is unlimited demand for US government paper, but it also desperately wants to avoid a failed auction.

For various reasons, the Federal Reserve cannot just up and start buying all the Treasury paper that becomes available in record amounts, week after week, month after month.

Instead, it uses this three-step shell game to hide what it is doing under a layer of complexity:

Shell #1: Foreign central banks sell agency debt out of the custody account.

Shell #2: The Federal Reserve buys those agency bonds with money created out of thin air.

Shell #3: Foreign central banks use that very same money to buy Treasuries at the next government auction.

[...]

The Federal Reserve has effectively been monetizing far more US government debt than has openly been revealed, by cleverly enabling foreign central banks to swap their agency debt for Treasury debt. This is not a sign of strength and reveals a pattern of trading temporary relief for future difficulties.

This is very nearly the same path that Zimbabwe took, resulting in the complete abandonment of the Zimbabwe dollar as a unit of currency. The difference is in the complexity of the game being played, not the substance of the actions themselves.

The shell game that the Fed is currently playing does not change the basic equation: Money is being printed out of thin air so that it can be used to buy US government debt."

If this is what the Fed's vaunted "independence" has led to, color me unimpressed.

540 3 wood  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:46:46pm

re: #441 ArchangelMichael

Yep, another way of describing the limitations.

541 snowcrash  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:46:58pm

re: #523 LudwigVanQuixote
Dude, I dont care how YOU define "Jesus freaks". Just like your posts on AGW, you have NO gift for getting people to see your point. Take lessons from iceweasel, ok.

542 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:47:50pm

Bible battle

Not always fun.

543 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:48:10pm

re: #511 drcordell

I agree with you there, and I certainly apologize if I ever gave the implication that I was lumping you in with the crazies. The problem IMHO is that this fringe 1% has been completely mainstreamed due to the combination of talk radio / cable news / the interwebs.

One thing: I'm a pagan.

Just don't tell my brother!

544 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:48:20pm

re: #537 Diego

Go bait someone else for a while.

Ding, ding, ding... you finally caught on. Just giving you a little of your own medicine. This, I believe, is the third time since you joined LGF that you jumped into a discussion, dropped a lot of opinion, and then wouldn't back up anything you said, wouldn't link to any supporting material to your "facts" and snarked away at us.

Turnabout is fair play.

545 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:49:27pm

re: #524 Killgore Trout

He's an anti American loon who would rather live in Dubai than the US. He's only coming back because he has revolutionary fantasies and join anti-government militias in New Hampshire. He's a dick and a loon.

And you're still engaged in argumentum ad hominem. Nice job. Can you actually provide evidence that he's wrong, other than that he's apparently a part-time record producer who enjoys clubbing?

I'm guessing not, otherwise you'd probably have done so already.

546 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:49:53pm

re: #538 Dianna

I'll tell you what's funny - I sent my brother (he's a fundy - boo!) a bunch of the links and stories, and asked him what he'd heard about it.

He had never heard of half these groups, and asked his pastor (Foursquare Gospel affiliation - booga! booga!) about them. The pastor knew about - and supported - the Discovery Institute, but made it very clear to my brother and his wife that it was not something he'd insist on in his church. The pastor had not heard of "dominionist" or "reconstructionist" except as a subject at a conference, as something that was very disturbing. As to abortion - the pastor strongly condemned anyone who commits an act of violence, and suggested more support and adoption as the way to combat abortion.

So, there.

The new Christian recruiting campaign, going dorr -to-door and yelling "boo" and "booga-booga."

It's will unnerve the progressive every time.

LOL.

547 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:50:08pm

re: #539 Phanatic

That's the point. The Fed has, since its inception, been a way for the government to increase spending by the simple expedient of debasing the currency.

And you want to allow the government to stick their finger in more? That doesn't make much sense to me. The issue is government power with money, and I have suggested repeatedly and for quite some time that we pass a balanced budget amendment as the beginning of fiscal congressional reform.

It ain't the Fed- it's Congress. Don't let them punk you.

548 snowcrash  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:50:47pm

re: #542 Ben Hur
Not fun but funny! lol

549 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:51:19pm

re: #531 wrenchwench

Yeah, you're correct. Anyone who'd write 'entree' instead of 'entrance' is definitely not to be trusted.

550 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:52:05pm

In teh beginning, Invisible Man make univerz.

551 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:52:35pm

Crikey - it's almost 1!

Excuse me, off to actually work!

552 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:53:09pm

re: #549 Phanatic

Yeah, you're correct. Anyone who'd write 'entree' instead of 'entrance' is definitely not to be trusted.

LOL!

(c'mon,. it was funny!)

553 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:53:40pm

Restricted spending, fiscal responsibility- Congress sees that as a loss of their power. They will do anything to shift the blame elsewhere- watch the birdie!

554 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:53:55pm

re: #547 Sharmuta

And you want to allow the government to stick their finger in more? That doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not that concerned about a finger when the two parties are already fisting each other with enormous vibrating dildos. Anything which *obfuscates* what is going on is bad, anything which gets it out on the open so more people can realize it and vote accordingly is good.

555 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:54:33pm

re: #530 Walter L. Newton

Yea I know, it's so mainstream that I think there is a bill running through -congress to set up a new tabernacle next to the Washington Monument so those Christians can put the Ark of the Covenant that the government is hiding back on display.

It's getting scary, isn't it?

You may not have a problem with your tax dollars being used to advance religious dogma in public schools, but I certainly do. Look, I'm not saying it's the end of the fucking world. But it's certainly not a reassuring sign for the state of our Democracy and the strength of our Constitution when public schools can blatantly teach Christian beliefs under the guise of "intelligent design."

556 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:54:58pm

re: #345 Charles

An interesting discussion of the topic at Theocracy Watch

What is Dominionism? Palin, the Christian Right, & Theocracy
by cberlet
Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 06:13:19 AM PDT

Sarah Palin is a "Dominionist" with an apocalytic End Times theological viewpoint that sees the war in Iraq as part of God's plan. More on the End Times in the next post. Let's talk about Christian Right Dominionism and tendencies toward authoritarian theocratic governance.

With a number of bloggers calling Sarah Palin a "Dominionist," it is a good idea to clear up some obvious errors in the use of terminology.

Neither Sarah Palin nor her Protestant church affiliated with the Assemblies of God should be described as practicing a form of "Dominion Theology" or "Christian Reconstructionism." That is just plain wrong.

It is fair to suggest that Palin displays the tendency called "Dominionism" in some of her public statements.

As one of the authors who popularized the term "Dominionism" (along with Sara Diamond, and Fred Clarkson), I feel some obligation to clear up this confusion, which stems from some very sloppy research posted on a number of websites where the terms "Dominionism," "Dominion Theology," and "Christian Reconstructionism" are used improperly and interchangeably.

"Christian Reconstructionism" is a form of "Dominion Theology" that influenced a tendency toward "Dominionism" in the Christian Right and certain evangelical churches such as The Assemblies of God. But, lumping of these theologies together is neither accurate, nor fair.

557 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:55:17pm

re: #554 Phanatic

It ain't the Fed- it's Congress.

558 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:55:24pm

re: #554 Phanatic

I'm not that concerned about a finger when the two parties are already fisting each other with enormous vibrating dildos. Anything which *obfuscates* what is going on is bad, anything which gets it out on the open so more people can realize it and vote accordingly is good.

Upding solely based on the hilariousness of your analogy.

559 Dreader1962  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:55:45pm

re: #546 Walter L. Newton

The new Christian recruiting campaign, going dorr -to-door and yelling "boo" and "booga-booga."

It's will unnerve the progressive every time.

LOL.

I'm an atheist, too - but I have noticed a vehement hatred toward Christianity pop up over the last few years (it seems to be tracking with the anti-Bush movement). I've been in the same room in my office when someone started spouting - unprovoked - how much he hated Christians (and he meant ALL Christians). One quote that dumbfounded me was, "Yeah, and the guy that cut me off driving to work was probably a f***ing Christian!"

Of course you can point to any number of whack-job groups, but I do not believe for a moment that one should 'fear' these groups as much or more than Islamic jihadists.

560 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:56:48pm

re: #555 drcordell

You may not have a problem with your tax dollars being used to advance religious dogma in public schools, but I certainly do. Look, I'm not saying it's the end of the fucking world. But it's certainly not a reassuring sign for the state of our Democracy and the strength of our Constitution when public schools can blatantly teach Christian beliefs under the guise of "intelligent design."

Then you must be 100% in favor of me witholding the portion of my property taxes that go to the public schools, taking that money for me to spend on a private and/ or religious school of my choice for my child

561 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:56:59pm

Looks like we still have at least one Paulian trying to evangelize for the kooky uncle at LGF.

562 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:57:52pm

re: #559 Dreader1962

I'm an atheist, too - but I have noticed a vehement hatred toward Christianity pop up over the last few years (it seems to be tracking with the anti-Bush movement). I've been in the same room in my office when someone started spouting - unprovoked - how much he hated Christians (and he meant ALL Christians). One quote that dumbfounded me was, "Yeah, and the guy that cut me off driving to work was probably a f***ing Christian!"

Of course you can point to any number of whack-job groups, but I do not believe for a moment that one should 'fear' these groups as much or more than Islamic jihadists.

And give that man a cigar.

563 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:57:52pm

re: #541 snowcrash

Dude, I dont care how YOU define "Jesus freaks". Just like your posts on AGW, you have NO gift for getting people to see your point. Take lessons from iceweasel, ok.

Dude, people who want to tear down America, a nation I love very much, get treated much more harshly than anti AGW loons. I have no desire to be PC with racist fascist wannabes. I have no desire to coddle the egos of blind religious fanatics.

I am all for saying things as they are.

As to the term Jesus freak, let's just speak plainly.

While not a Christian, myself, I have great respect for Christianity and I have read the NT and Augustine and Aquinas amongst many others.

I can not speak with authority about this, but I get the very strong impression that Jesus, was very into non-violence and forgiveness. He was also very into acting with conscience and thoughtfulness. He was very, very into not abusing power.

Therefore any "Christian" who does not support such notions is not a Christian, but rather a fanatic who freakishly perverts the teachings of Christ to justify their own base fears and violent urges.

Hence Jesus Freak.

They should be looked upon with the same disdain that we look at Jihadis. The should be looked upon with the same disdain we look upon Naturei Karta.

I really don't care if stating the simple and plain truth offends.

564 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:58:38pm

re: #98 kansas

Are we as sensitive about what blacks say about the Black House, and this ain't America no more? I didn't think so.

If someone in Congress says anything like that I will be happy to get sensitive about it.

565 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:58:40pm

re: #553 Sharmuta

Restricted spending, fiscal responsibility- Congress sees that as a loss of their power. They will do anything to shift the blame elsewhere- watch the birdie!

Absolutely.

566 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:59:18pm

re: #559 Dreader1962

"Yeah, and the guy that cut me off driving to work was probably a f***ing Christian!"


Statistically, due to the demographiscs of the country, he was probably right!!

(just sayin!)

//

//

567 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 12:59:53pm

re: #555 drcordell

You may not have a problem with your tax dollars being used to advance religious dogma in public schools, but I certainly do. Look, I'm not saying it's the end of the fucking world. But it's certainly not a reassuring sign for the state of our Democracy and the strength of our Constitution when public schools can blatantly teach Christian beliefs under the guise of "intelligent design."

So, as an conservative, can I take all my tax money slated for public schools and spend it on private education that suits my choice? I wouldn't want my children being infected will all that progressive hogwash.

568 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:00:11pm

re: #563 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude, people who want to tear down America, a nation I love very much, get treated much more harshly than anti AGW loons. I have no desire to be PC with racist fascist wannabes. I have no desire to coddle the egos of blind religious fanatics.

I am all for saying things as they are.

As to the term Jesus freak, let's just speak plainly.

While not a Christian, myself, I have great respect for Christianity and I have read the NT and Augustine and Aquinas amongst many others.

I can not speak with authority about this, but I get the very strong impression that Jesus, was very into non-violence and forgiveness. He was also very into acting with conscience and thoughtfulness. He was very, very into not abusing power.

Therefore any "Christian" who does not support such notions is not a Christian, but rather a fanatic who freakishly perverts the teachings of Christ to justify their own base fears and violent urges.

Hence Jesus Freak.

They should be looked upon with the same disdain that we look at Jihadis. The should be looked upon with the same disdain we look upon Naturei Karta.

I really don't care if stating the simple and plain truth offends.

LOL.

569 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:00:34pm

re: #561 Charles

Looks like we still have at least one Paulian trying to evangelize for the kooky uncle at LGF.

Is that me, Charles?

Hardly. Paul's a jackass isolationist who'd have sold Zyklon B to the Nazis. But facts are facts, and the notion that the Fed will stop controlling inflation if we audit them's as asinine as anything the Troofers or the Creationists have to say.

Oh well. I guess we all have our irrational yet deeply held beliefs which we don't subject to real analysis or debate.

570 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:01:02pm

re: #565 LudwigVanQuixote

AGW Freak... aaahhh... run...

571 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:01:14pm

re: #567 Walter L. Newton

gmta (560)

572 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:01:38pm

re: #143 Dianna

I understand. Sorry. I'm over-sensitive on some subjects.

Not on this one. I'm kind of sick of the gay jokes about Barney m'self. None of them are very funny.

573 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:02:05pm

re: #565 LudwigVanQuixote

And it's too damn bad- the people have the means to change this, and restrict Congress' spending and shrink government power if they want to- it's called the Balanced Budget Amendment, and demanding this over an audit will have much better long term benefits to our posterity.

574 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:02:37pm

re: #569 Phanatic

Is that me, Charles?

Hardly. Paul's a jackass isolationist who'd have sold Zyklon B to the Nazis. But facts are facts, and the notion that the Fed will stop controlling inflation if we audit them's as asinine as anything the Troofers or the Creationists have to say.

Oh well. I guess we all have our irrational yet deeply held beliefs which we don't subject to real analysis or debate.

The Federal Reserve is already audited on a regular basis. This is a political fishing expedition intended to lay the ground for abolishing it entirely, and it's a purely horrible idea to let Washington get its fingers any more deeply into the Fed than they already are.

575 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:03:08pm

re: #573 Sharmuta

And it's too damn bad- the people have the means to change this, and restrict Congress' spending and shrink government power if they want to- it's called the Balanced Budget Amendment, and demanding this over an audit will have much better long term benefits to our posterity.

Well that would be sensible. We can't have that...

576 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:03:17pm

re: #572 SanFranciscoZionist

Not on this one. I'm kind of sick of the gay jokes about Barney m'self. None of them are very funny.

Could have something to do with the fact that Barney is an ugly bear of a queen and he couldn't even do a good trash-drag.

577 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:03:53pm
This does not mean most Christian Right leaders became Christian Reconstructionists. It does mean they were influenced by dominion theology. But they were influenced in a number of different ways, and some promote the theocratic aspects more militantly than others.

It helps to see the terms dominionism, dominion theology, and Christian Reconstructionism as distinct and not interchangeable. While all Christian Reconstructionists are dominionists, not all dominionists are Christian Reconstructionists.

A nested subset chart looks like this:

-Triumphalism

-Dominionism
-Dominion Theology or Theocracy
-Theonomy
-Christian Reconstructionism



The specific meanings are different in important ways, although the terms have been used in a variety of conflicting ways in popular articles, especially on the Internet.

In its generic sense, dominionism is a very broad political tendency within the Christian Right. It ranges from soft to hard versions in terms of its theocratic impulse.

Soft Dominionists are Christian nationalists. They believe that Biblically-defined immorality and sin breed chaos and anarchy. They fear that America's greatness as God's chosen land has been undermined by liberal secular humanists, feminists, and homosexuals. Purists want litmus tests for issues of abortion, tolerance of gays and lesbians, and prayer in schools. Their vision has elements of theocracy, but they stop short of calling for supplanting the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Hard Dominionists believe all of this, but they want the United States to be a Christian theocracy. For them the Constitution and Bill of Rights are merely addendums to Old Testament Biblical law. They claim that Christian men with specific theological beliefs are ordained by God to run society. Christians and others who do not accept their theological beliefs would be second-class citizens. This sector includes Christian Reconstructionists, but it has a growing number of adherents in the leadership of the Christian Right.

578 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:04:25pm

re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote

Well that would be sensible. We can't have that...

Indeed- what could we possibly stand to gain with a positive message of fiscal responsibility?

579 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:04:30pm

re: #560 sattv4u2

Then you must be 100% in favor of me witholding the portion of my property taxes that go to the public schools, taking that money for me to spend on a private and/ or religious school of my choice for my child

There is that false analogy again, the same one used by the Missouri school that pulled the evolution t-shirts from their band. Secular does not mean anti-religious. The absence of religion is not an attack on religion.

By that logic can someone who is against the war begin withholding their taxes that go to pay for the military? Or someone who opposes medicine withhold their taxes that go towards medicare? Allowing citizens to pick and choose which programs they wish to pay taxes to fund would be an unmitigated disaster.

You can choose to pull your child from public school and teach them whatever you want. But that doesn't mean you are entitled to not pay the taxes that go towards funding it. Just as someone who doesn't have any kids doesn't get to lessen their property taxes because they aren't sending any kids to school.

580 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:04:37pm

re: #187 MandyManners

Yeah, Swaggart wants to destroy all art and shroud women in bags.

Actually, I sort of suspect that Swaggart does want to destroy all art. Or at least, doesn't much care if it goes.

581 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:05:26pm

re: #570 Walter L. Newton

AGW Freak... aaahhh... run...

Walter, is there some reason that you need to pick a fight.

Just to be clear on a difference, my AGW discussions have the motive of bringing science and fact to save lives. Any measure to fix it, will require me to make changes as well.

Religious freaks of all persuasions are bringing dogma to hurt people for their own selfish gain. You see the difference?

582 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:06:06pm

re: #581 LudwigVanQuixote

Walter, is there some reason that you need to pick a fight.

Just to be clear on a difference, my AGW discussions have the motive of bringing science and fact to save lives. Any measure to fix it, will require me to make changes as well.

Religious freaks of all persuasions are bringing dogma to hurt people for their own selfish gain. You see the difference?

Ludwig, is there some reason I can't state my opinion?

583 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:06:36pm

re: #222 drcordell

The shirt shows a monkey with a brass instrument in its tail evolving into a human playing a trumpet below the text "the evolution of brass."

I'm aghast. What a brazen gesture.

584 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:07:00pm

re: #581 LudwigVanQuixote

Walter, is there some reason that you need to pick a fight.

Just to be clear on a difference, my AGW discussions have the motive of bringing science and fact to save lives. Any measure to fix it, will require me to make changes as well.

Religious freaks of all persuasions are bringing dogma to hurt people for their own selfish gain. You see the difference?

For once we agree, I don't understand how they can believe in G-d.

585 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:07:01pm

re: #567 Walter L. Newton

So, as an conservative, can I take all my tax money slated for public schools and spend it on private education that suits my choice? I wouldn't want my children being infected will all that progressive hogwash.

Again. You are attempting to conflate secular with anti-religious. Evolution is not a religious belief.

586 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:07:52pm

re: #577 Kenneth

You know, it is just a regurgitation of

Dieu et mon Droit.

Real Americans had a tremendous problem with that political theory in 1776.

I don't think you could have hit a potent expression of how far the GOP has drifted from American values.

587 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:08:00pm

re: #584 Walter L. Newton

For once we agree, I don't understand how they can believe in G-d.

If you're not religious why do you shy from typing the name of God?

588 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:08:25pm

re: #563 LudwigVanQuixote

The term Jesus Freak actually came into currency in the 1960s to describe young people, many of them refugees from the free love and pro-drug lifestyle, who embraced Christianity and sought to live as much like Jesus as possible. They were often homeless and went from place to place to preach the gospel. Some of them lived in communal homes with fellow believers and practiced what might be described as a Book of Acts lifestyle. They shunned personal property and material success in favor of Christ-like living.

In light of that, I think your usage of the term "Jesus freak" is inaccurate and unfair.

589 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:08:42pm

re: #585 drcordell

Again. You are attempting to conflate secular with anti-religious. Evolution is not a religious belief.

"Greening" is not a progressive religion? Really Doc, you need to look up a few definitions of "religion."

I don't want my tax money going to teach my children all that progressive religion.

590 Dreader1962  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:09:02pm

re: #566 sattv4u2


"Yeah, and the guy that cut me off driving to work was probably a f***ing Christian!"

Statistically, due to the demographiscs of the country, he was probably right!!

(just sayin!)

//

//

He may have been coincidentally 'right', but it was the same irrational garbage you would hear from the worst racist rant that you can imagine. I just let you in on one of the many things that he flung out there. I found myself in the bizarre position of an atheist defending Christians in general. I don't know what the source of his problem was.

Oh, and he wound up being let go from my company after one of our clients (the US Treasury Dept) found his presence to be 'disruptive'. They didn't define exactly how it was disruptive. He's former Army and I don't think he adjusted to civilian life very well. Which means he was probably a POS as a soldier.

591 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:09:10pm

re: #574 Charles

The Federal Reserve is already audited on a regular basis. This is a political fishing expedition intended to lay the ground for abolishing it entirely, and it's a purely horrible idea to let Washington get its fingers any more deeply into the Fed than they already are.

[Link: www.publiceye.org...]

We conducted our audits in accordance with generally accepted accounting standards and Government Accounting Standards issued by the Comptroller General of the United States. Those standards require that we plan and perform the audits to obtain reasonable assurance about whether the financial statements are free of material misstatement. An audit includes examining, on a test basis, evidence supporting the amounts and disclosures in the financial statements. An audit also includes assessing the accounting principles used and significant estmates made by management, as well as evaluating the overall financial statement presentation.

That's not any definition of 'audit' that I'm familiar with. If you're audited by the IRS, they do a hell of a lot more than 'examine, on a test basis, evidence supporting the amounts and disclosures in the financial statements.'

The law also excludes the following areas from GAO examination:

(1) transactions for or with a foreign central bank, government of a foreign country, or nonprivate international financing organization;

(2) deliberations, decisions, or actions on monetary policy matters, including discount window operations, reserves of member banks, securities credit, interest on deposits, open market operations;

(3) transactions made under the direction of the Federal Open Market Committee; or

(4) a part of a discussion or communication among or between members of the Board of Governors and officers and employees of the Federal Reserve System related to items.

I don't know about you, but some of those things sound...reasonably significant to me, and (1) especially would seem to be necessary for an audit to have any significance beyond giving special interests the ability to say "But we already audit the Fed on a regular basis!"

592 theuglydougling  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:10:27pm

I can't stand Paul. In his defense I will say that I still hate Alex Jones even more.

So it irks me that anytime a Republican agrees with Paul, he's 'morphing into a Paulian' or something like that. But apparently when a Democrat does it, he's 'surrendering.'

I had no idea over the last 5-8 years that so many Democrats had surrendered to Ron Paul with respect to the Iraq War, Trutherism, etc.

593 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:10:41pm

re: #587 drcordell

If you're not religious why do you shy from typing the name of God?

I did that in respect to Ludwig, who is an observant Jew. You see Doc. I am an atheist, but I can respect ones beliefs and religion. But, reading your comments up thread, I can understand how that would confuse you.

594 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:11:46pm

re: #579 drcordell

Secular does not mean anti-religious. The absence of religion is not an attack on religion.

I asked you nothing about secularism nor anti-religion nor religion. I asked a simple question. Do you support the idea of me being able to
A) take my child out of public school for whatever reason
and
B) being able to take the monies from my property taxes that are targeted for said public school and use that money for a private one, be it christia, jewish, or non-religious

595 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:11:51pm

re: #589 Walter L. Newton

"Greening" is not a progressive religion? Really Doc, you need to look up a few definitions of "religion."

I don't want my tax money going to teach my children all that progressive religion.

Greening? WTF are you talking about. The fact that they teach the scientific data proving AGW in school as fact?

And here is the definition of religion:
"a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances"

Not sure where global warming fits into that? Or whatever the fuck "greening" is?

596 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:12:03pm

re: #593 Walter L. Newton

I did that in respect to Ludwig, who is an observant Jew. You see Doc. I am an atheist, but I can respect ones beliefs and religion. But, reading your comments up thread, I can understand how that would confuse you.

Isnt there a drinking game like that? Socialables or something? everyone makes a rule and if you screw up you drink?

597 3 wood  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:12:25pm

re: #574 Charles

The Federal Reserve is already audited on a regular basis. This is a political fishing expedition intended to lay the ground for abolishing it entirely, and it's a purely horrible idea to let Washington get its fingers any more deeply into the Fed than they already are.

Agree 100%. Moreover, it is an attempt by Congress to control the currency and the basis for market interest rates.

598 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:13:23pm

re: #594 sattv4u2

Secular does not mean anti-religious. The absence of religion is not an attack on religion.

I asked you nothing about secularism nor anti-religion nor religion. I asked a simple question. Do you support the idea of me being able to
A) take my child out of public school for whatever reason
and
B) being able to take the monies from my property taxes that are targeted for said public school and use that money for a private one, be it christia, jewish, or non-religious

Read my response. I'll type it again...

By that logic can someone who is against the war begin withholding their taxes that go to pay for the military? Or someone who opposes medicine withhold their taxes that go towards medicare? Allowing citizens to pick and choose which programs they wish to pay taxes to fund would be an unmitigated disaster.

You can choose to pull your child from public school and teach them whatever you want. But that doesn't mean you are entitled to not pay the taxes that go towards funding it. Just as someone who doesn't have any kids doesn't get to lessen their property taxes because they aren't sending any kids to school.

599 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:13:25pm

re: #588 doppelganglander

The term Jesus Freak actually came into currency in the 1960s to describe young people, many of them refugees from the free love and pro-drug lifestyle, who embraced Christianity and sought to live as much like Jesus as possible. They were often homeless and went from place to place to preach the gospel. Some of them lived in communal homes with fellow believers and practiced what might be described as a Book of Acts lifestyle. They shunned personal property and material success in favor of Christ-like living.

In light of that, I think your usage of the term "Jesus freak" is inaccurate and unfair.

Fine, who gives a damn about what we call the phenomena? Most people I know would use the phrase exactly as I do, but so what?

The phenomena I am talking about is very real and very dangerous.

Call them the "Guns for Jesus" crowd. Call them the "we don't care if guns are pointed in Jesus' name at gay people and abortion performing doctors" crowd.

The real point is that they are the:

"America must be defined by a certain sect of white Christian ideology crowd, and we are scared green that we are losing control of America and therefore contemplating violence" crowd.

Dieu et mon Droit!

600 Dreader1962  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:14:00pm

re: #588 doppelganglander

The term Jesus Freak actually came into currency in the 1960s to describe young people, many of them refugees from the free love and pro-drug lifestyle, who embraced Christianity and sought to live as much like Jesus as possible. They were often homeless and went from place to place to preach the gospel. Some of them lived in communal homes with fellow believers and practiced what might be described as a Book of Acts lifestyle. They shunned personal property and material success in favor of Christ-like living.

In light of that, I think your usage of the term "Jesus freak" is inaccurate and unfair.

The term 'Jesus Freak' is a pejorative and is obviously meant to inflame. I really don't think it's a productive way to forward one's argument, but it at least embodies a consistent style that I have noticed.

601 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:14:53pm

re: #545 Phanatic

I don't get my financial information from anti-American extremist Dj's. I don't take anything they say seriously.

602 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:16:15pm

re: #601 Killgore Trout

I don't get my financial information from anti-American extremist Dj's. I don't take anything they say seriously.

No, no, no, what you mean is "I actually don't have any counterevidence to offer, no objective basis to support my claim that he's wrong, so I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears and go neenerneenerneenerneener."

603 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:17:28pm

re: #600 Dreader1962

The term 'Jesus Freak' is a pejorative and is obviously meant to inflame. I really don't think it's a productive way to forward one's argument, but it at least embodies a consistent style that I have noticed.

And like I said in the OP, the use of the term would create endless quibbling rather than look at the real point. It's a good distraction from talking about how these people are lining up with those who want to tear down the government isn't it?

It's a good distraction for how those people want to impose their religious views on the rest of the country, because freedom of religion means freedom of their religion - at the expense of other views to them.

It's a good distraction from the fact that all of this has a very deep seated fear that has led to tragedy in our history - and that the GOP is fanning those flames without a single thought to the consequences.

That's ok.

I am big and mean and I say nsty things. Therefore the real point can be ignored.

Go back to your regularly scheduled denial.

604 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:17:29pm

re: #597 3 wood

Agree 100%. Moreover, it is an attempt by Congress to control the currency and the basis for market interest rates.

What, what?

I mean...what?

Shouldn't the basis for "market interest rates" be...the market ? If you're opposed to a single political entity controlling the currency and setting the basis for interest rates, how is it any better or worse for that entity to be the Fed rather than Congress?

605 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:17:52pm

Just about the only thing I find "anti-american" is the use of the term "anti-american" as a blanket pejorative to slime anyone you disagree with.

606 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:18:22pm
607 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:19:23pm

re: #598 drcordell

By that logic can someone who is against the war begin withholding their taxes that go to pay for the military? BAd anaolgy for two (obvious) reasons

A) the military (for the defense of this country) benefits ALL of us and it's voluntary to boot.
B) If you are in the militray and didn't like it it's not like you can go to ANOTHER military and have to pay out of pocket for that one while at the same time still paying for the US military

But that doesn't mean you are entitled to not pay the taxes that go towards funding it.

Why not?

608 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:19:33pm

re: #591 Phanatic

Why are you so convinced the Federal Reserve is the issue more than Congressional influences?

609 snowcrash  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:20:52pm

re: #600 Dreader1962
Very true. It is all derision. I am NOT a Fundamentalist Christian but I would never call them "Fundy" or Bible thumpers. Those are insults and most people know it.

610 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:20:59pm

re: #605 drcordell

Research the guy yourself. He hates this country. So does Ron Paul; his goal is to destroy the country to rebuild it into something else. Just because they use the word "patriot" doesn't mean the love the country.

611 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:23:35pm

re: #249 sattv4u2

Yup,,, nothing worse than a couple of clean cut kids in white shirts with starched collars and ties, clean shaven, neat haircuts coming to your door and and telling you that they love Jesus.

Why can;t they wear baggy jeans down below their asses with music blaring about "bitches and ho's" and sporting an unregistered firearm like normal kids!

Missionaries are not theocrats.

Which is not to say that I enjoy having them around.

612 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:24:15pm
613 yochanan  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:24:44pm

silver here

///

614 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:25:14pm

re: #609 snowcrash

Very true. It is all derision. I am NOT a Fundamentalist Christian but I would never call them "Fundy" or Bible thumpers. Those are insults and most people know it.

And yet we have no problem insulting the lunacy of Jihadis...

And yet we have no problem talking about the perversion of Torah that is the Naturi Carta...

How is it different?

Again, we are really clear that Christians are good hearted and decent people. The freaks are mean and unthinking to the core.

They deserve to be looked upon as what they are.

615 3 wood  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:26:10pm

re: #604 Phanatic

Shouldn't the basis for "market interest rates" be...the market ?

The very fact that monetary policy works holds the answer for you:

You can directly nfluence the market rates via monetary policy 3 ways:

1. By expanding/contracting the money supply through open market operations with lowers/raises interst rates respectively.

2. Raising or lowering the discount rate. This is a building block for market rates . Other components include risk and duration.

3. changing reserve requirements to tie up or free up reserves for lending purposes.

The Fed and indirectly influence them by buying or selling Treasuries, i.e., monetizing the debt.

Letting Congress take over the Fed is literally like letting the fox take over the hen house.

616 ladycatnip  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:26:33pm

#605 drcordell

Just about the only thing I find "anti-american" is the use of the term "anti-american" as a blanket pejorative to slime anyone you disagree with.

We actually agree on something - I feel the same way about people flinging the term fundamentalist around to slime Christians. That, too, is a blanket perjorative.

617 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:26:38pm

re: #599 LudwigVanQuixote

Fine, who gives a damn about what we call the phenomena? Most people I know would use the phrase exactly as I do, but so what?

The phenomena I am talking about is very real and very dangerous.

Call them the "Guns for Jesus" crowd. Call them the "we don't care if guns are pointed in Jesus' name at gay people and abortion performing doctors" crowd.

The real point is that they are the:

"America must be defined by a certain sect of white Christian ideology crowd, and we are scared green that we are losing control of America and therefore contemplating violence" crowd.

Dieu et mon Droit!

You really have a knack for alienating people who might otherwise agree with you. You're the same person who can't write about AGW without personally insulting everyone who dares question you. Now you've managed to apply an offensive label to millions of people who are no danger to you or anyone else, who are just as appalled by the tiny minority of racist militia nuts as you are. If you really wanted to stamp out the Dominionist movement, you should take charge of it. We'd be transformed into a nation of secular humanists overnight.

618 Dreader1962  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:27:06pm

re: #603 LudwigVanQuixote

And like I said in the OP, the use of the term would create endless quibbling rather than look at the real point. It's a good distraction from talking about how these people are lining up with those who want to tear down the government isn't it?

It's a good distraction for how those people want to impose their religious views on the rest of the country, because freedom of religion means freedom of their religion - at the expense of other views to them.

It's a good distraction from the fact that all of this has a very deep seated fear that has led to tragedy in our history - and that the GOP is fanning those flames without a single thought to the consequences.

That's ok.

I am big and mean and I say nsty things. Therefore the real point can be ignored.

Go back to your regularly scheduled denial.

No, I'm trying to gently advise you that your tone is not convincing those who you apparently wish to convince. The same with your AGW posts. You may lose patience, but if your purpose is to convince, you need to be reasonable against the unreasonable. It's difficult, and you may not always win, but it's better than posting comments that will just be appreciated by those who already agree with you. This should be a discussion, not a bludgeoning match.

619 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:27:57pm

re: #604 Phanatic

If you're opposed to a single political entity controlling the currency and setting the basis for interest rates, how is it any better or worse for that entity to be the Fed rather than Congress?

Why the hell would you want to give Congress more control?! Talk about an increase of government power! Hello-ooo?

620 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:31:09pm

re: #364 Walter L. Newton

It's not. Not less theocratic. Possibly less dangerous, since Sharia law demands so much eye-for-a-eye and other blood retribution.

But over all, not any different in concept.

I don't think Sharia has anything over an un-commentaried interpretation of Leviticus and Numbers.

621 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:31:31pm

re: #603 LudwigVanQuixote


[snip]

I am big and mean and I say nsty things. Therefore the real point can be ignored.

[snip]

Yep.

622 greygandalf  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:31:52pm

The Fed needs to be independent so it can bailout companies or choose to let them fail and not have to answer our congress representatives about it.

623 shortshrift  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:32:29pm

re: #523 LudwigVanQuixote

So you will not be voting Republican, I take it.

624 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:32:46pm

re: #620 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think Sharia has anything over an un-commentaried interpretation of Leviticus and Numbers.

Well it certainly does, since I don't know any place in the world where all the commands of Leviticus and Numbers are being imposed.

Do you?

625 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:33:38pm
626 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:34:13pm

re: #620 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think Sharia has anything over an un-commentaried interpretation of Leviticus and Numbers.

Why did you have to start this just when I have to leave for an hour. Fun, fun... I have about 10 minutes and then gone for a bit. Hopefully we can take this up later some time.

627 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:34:41pm

re: #397 jill e

FREE will.re: #355 drcordell


The idea of FREE will. For Christians, belief in God/Jesus can not be forced by threats of death, injury, etc.

And yet, people calling themselves Christians have done just that. Which makes me wary of simply dismissing people who say out loud that that's what they want to do.

628 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:35:17pm

re: #599 LudwigVanQuixote

You're managing to conflate "christian identity" with the dominionists, and that is quite ineligible.

I don't care for the dominionists, but they're not the same as the "christian identity" crowd.

Is there over-lap? Possibly; even probably - fringes tend to entwine. I haven't made an in-depth study of either, mostly because they haven't crossed my radar for writing. But short of some better proof than your remarkably panicked outcry, I'm not going to render myself cross-eyed trying to see a convergence that I don't see in dominionist rhetoric.

629 yochanan  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:35:50pm

frankly i have more of a problem with secular leftist humanist members of the chatting class than i have with religious people like Gov Huckabee

I wish the american jewish leadershit (///) supported Israel half as much as the gov'r does.

630 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:36:36pm

re: #607 sattv4u2

By that logic can someone who is against the war begin withholding their taxes that go to pay for the military? BAd anaolgy for two (obvious) reasons

A) the military (for the defense of this country) benefits ALL of us and it's voluntary to boot.
B) If you are in the militray and didn't like it it's not like you can go to ANOTHER military and have to pay out of pocket for that one while at the same time still paying for the US military

But that doesn't mean you are entitled to not pay the taxes that go towards funding it.

Why not?

You can't selectively decide which government services to pay taxes towards because then nobody would pay any of their taxes. Public education is a public good just like police protection, or military protection, or many other government services.

The amount of property taxes you pay towards education is not directly correlated with the amount of education your child is receiving at school. A rich person with a huge house and no kids might pay $20,000 in property taxes and use zero public education. A poor person may pay $2,000 in property taxes but send 4 children to public school.

Allowing everyone to pull their tax money would destroy the public education system. Which it appears you would be in favor of. As if our nation's one in seven adult illiteracy rate wasn't high enough. Privatize the education system and see how well that impacts the nation.

631 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:37:04pm

re: #629 yochanan

You don't find the crowd that supports Israel to bring about the End Times as a little disturbing?

632 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:37:08pm

re: #601 Killgore Trout

Never take political advice from anyone who spends all his or her time pretending to be someone else.

(Dianna's first rule of political wisdom. Possibly the only one I'll every formulate. Everyone should be grateful for this.)

633 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:40:10pm

re: #614 LudwigVanQuixote

And yet we have no problem insulting the lunacy of Jihadis...

And yet we have no problem talking about the perversion of Torah that is the Naturi Carta...

How is it different?

Again, we are really clear that Christians are good hearted and decent people. The freaks are mean and unthinking to the core.

They deserve to be looked upon as what they are.

Oh, dear.

634 shortshrift  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:40:42pm

re: #620 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think Sharia has anything over an un-commentaried interpretation of Leviticus and Numbers.

Compare like to like. The Sharia is collected from the equivalent of commentaries on the Koran. Perhaps now that the gates of ijtihad are open again, Sharia will moderate in line with the other religions. (But I do not hold my breath).

635 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:40:47pm

re: #632 Dianna

Never take political advice from anyone who spends all his or her time pretending to be someone else.

(Dianna's first rule of political wisdom. Possibly the only one I'll every formulate. Everyone should be grateful for this.)

One of the reason's I trust LGF is because Charles is up front about who he is. Anonymity and false personas make me more skeptical.

636 doppelganglander  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:40:47pm

re: #632 Dianna

Never take political advice from anyone who spends all his or her time pretending to be someone else.

(Dianna's first rule of political wisdom. Possibly the only one I'll every formulate. Everyone should be grateful for this.)

That's very sensible. If we followed Dianna's Rule (I think it deserves capitalization), there would be no audience for the wisdom of Sean Penn, Ted Danson, Barbra Streisand, Chuck Norris, et al. and they'd soon stop talking. I think that's an idea we can all get behind.

637 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:40:59pm

re: #627 SanFranciscoZionist

And yet, people calling themselves Christians have done just that. Which makes me wary of simply dismissing people who say out loud that that's what they want to do.

Exactly. These aims are not private, they are public.

638 yochanan  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:42:12pm

re: #631 Sharmuta

frankly i believe in the Jewish tradition so i believe they are just wrong and are allowed to believe in fairy tales if they wish, for now I will take there support as the islmo fascists want us dead.

639 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:42:40pm

re: #638 yochanan

frankly i believe in the Jewish tradition so i believe they are just wrong and are allowed to believe in fairy tales if they wish, for now I will take there support as the islmo fascists want us dead.

Ah the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." How's that worked out throughout history?

640 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:42:47pm

re: #622 greygandalf

Nope.

That was congress.

641 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:43:21pm

re: #638 yochanan

But I think it's dangerous to consider your enemy's enemy as your friend.

642 Dreader1962  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:43:21pm

What happened to the buttons?

What I mean is that the Upding/Downding/etc. buttons are now showing as a vertical instead of horizontal.

Anyone else here notice that?

Windows Vista/Firefox 3.5.2

643 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:43:24pm

re: #482 Eowyn2

You do realize:
the number of people who condone bombing abortion clinics is extremely low?
the first Crusades were fought to stop the Muslim religion from spreading to Europe?

Many evil things have been done in Jesus name. Many evil things have been done in Stalin's name as well. Where evil resides, an excuse is generally not needed.

Can I have a serious link on this business about the Crusades? I've heard that seven or eight times on LGF, and, honestly, it's not supported by anything I know. I'd like to see a source before I call major BS.

Secondly, and I'm about to be a little dicey here, how do we feel about people who call themselves Stalinists? Do we remember what was done in Stalin's name? We sure do. Christianity carries its historical baggage with it like any other faith or movement, and saying that the true faith does not condone such may be true, but it does not wipe out the past.

Those brave Crusaders saving Europe from Islam slaughtered the Jewish community of Jerusalem, after murdering and extorting funds from Jewish communities across Europe. Tell me, who should I have been rooting for in 1066?

644 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:44:57pm

re: #631 Sharmuta

You don't find the crowd that supports Israel to bring about the End Times as a little disturbing?

Actually? I find them hysterical.

645 yochanan  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:45:01pm

re: #639 drcordell

i don't consider gov'r Huckabee to be my enimy now hamas, islamic jihad, hezballah, iran, A.N.S.W.E.R. real fascists and real commies do what me dead.

the gov'r supported Israel when he did not have to and has done so in a long term fashion. AND ISRAEL IS HAPPY FOR HIS SUPPORT

646 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:45:18pm

re: #519 Walter L. Newton

That's creating and setting up a theocracy? You are easily frightened.

It's a damn good start.

647 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:45:38pm

re: #630 drcordell

Public education is a public good just like police protection, or military protection, or many other government services.

Really. So someone who sends their kids to a failed (for decades, btw) inner city school system should just STFD and STFU even though across town there is another PUBLIC school that is doing okay!
Where else do we see this as applied to "public good". Do inner city residents get LESS police or military protection than in other parets of town? AND, if it is a "public good" yet fails to educate we should just keep it going? WHy? Do you not think we would have made drastic changes in the military if we kept losing conflict after conflict? Do the police/ fire/ public works depts not change when something they are doing is failing?

Privatize the education system and see how well that impacts the nation.

In that private schools by and large have a higher literacy/ graduation percentage, I would say the impact would be to the POSITIVE

648 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:46:04pm

re: #643 SanFranciscoZionist

Can I have a serious link on this business about the Crusades? I've heard that seven or eight times on LGF, and, honestly, it's not supported by anything I know. I'd like to see a source before I call major BS.

Secondly, and I'm about to be a little dicey here, how do we feel about people who call themselves Stalinists? Do we remember what was done in Stalin's name? We sure do. Christianity carries its historical baggage with it like any other faith or movement, and saying that the true faith does not condone such may be true, but it does not wipe out the past.

Those brave Crusaders saving Europe from Islam slaughtered the Jewish community of Jerusalem, after murdering and extorting funds from Jewish communities across Europe. Tell me, who should I have been rooting for in 1066?

1096. Excuse me. 66 is Hastings.

649 shortshrift  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:46:39pm

re: #643 SanFranciscoZionist

King Harold.

650 greygandalf  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:47:10pm

re: #640 Dianna

Nope.

That was congress.

I dont recall a vote to save AIG and a vote to let Lehman Brothers fail.

651 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:47:16pm

re: #642 Dreader1962

Windows Vista/Firefox 3.5.2

Call the exterminator, quick!

652 shortshrift  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:47:27pm

re: #648 SanFranciscoZionist

I was too slow!

653 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:47:27pm

re: #639 drcordell

Ah the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." How's that worked out throughout history?

It defeated Hitler in Europe in the 40's!

654 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:48:02pm

re: #625 buzzsawmonkey

You are showing a certain inability to distinguish between/among whites, or Christians, or ideologies, or something, with this post. The people who blather about violence--who may, even, tote their guns to townhall meetings in a grotesquely wrongheaded belief they are proving a useful point--are not people who ever had "control of America," at least not within any living memory.

You're simultaneously buying into the Obama "bitter clinging to guns and religion" stereotype and inflating it into a bogeyman much more powerful than it is.

Not at all, please read my OP. I was painfully clear in defining who I was taking about in order to avoid this sort of quibbling. I was also clear that I was being so clear so as to look at the main point and not get caught up in this very quibbling.

Here is the OP. # 523

Now as to the Jesus freaks (which is a purposefully pejorative label that I use to distinguish them from the kind, and decent folks known as Christians) and the Paulinas and the nirthers and the deathers and the gun toting folks, the moronic convergence is all based on fear of losing power and position.

Please let me define Jesus Freak so that my real points do not get lost in quibbling over that phrase. Jesus Freaks are your anti-evolution, think it is ok to bomb abortion clinics, think that gay marriage is a bigger threat to marriage than heterosexual divorce rates, love the death penalty types.
They are strongly correlated with notions of white supremacy, but there is an overlap there, rather than a definition. Also, to prevent useless quibbling about the phrase Jesus freak, there are also psycho-Orthodox Jews and there are also Jihadis.

And then I say, let's get to the real point.. There is a trend at LGF that if you can not get into the real point, then try to snipe with pedantic quibbles about side issues and mock affront.

It was lame in high school debate club and it is lame now.

655 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:48:13pm

re: #635 Sharmuta

One of the reason's I trust LGF is because Charles is up front about who he is. Anonymity and false personas make me more skeptical.

I will now stare at the ceiling and begin murmuring, "Publius" and other pseudonyms from the Federalist Papers. Just because I'm in a very, very silly mood.

I don't worry about pseudonyms, or false personas, much. I worry about actors giving political advice. Or singer/songwriters - they play roles, and shift them even more sharply than do actors. And let's not even get into novelists!

656 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:49:55pm

re: #647 sattv4u2

Public education is a public good just like police protection, or military protection, or many other government services.

Really. So someone who sends their kids to a failed (for decades, btw) inner city school system should just STFD and STFU even though across town there is another PUBLIC school that is doing okay!
Where else do we see this as applied to "public good". Do inner city residents get LESS police or military protection than in other parets of town? AND, if it is a "public good" yet fails to educate we should just keep it going? WHy? Do you not think we would have made drastic changes in the military if we kept losing conflict after conflict? Do the police/ fire/ public works depts not change when something they are doing is failing?

Privatize the education system and see how well that impacts the nation.

In that private schools by and large have a higher literacy/ graduation percentage, I would say the impact would be to the POSITIVE

Who is going to pay for this private education? Who is going to ensure that every child in America has access to a private educational institution? What standards are going to be implemented nationwide to ensure that private schools are doing an adequate job of teaching?

Your libertarian fantasies sound real good on paper, but when you actually have to figure out a functional way of implementing them... they melt down. If you believe that every child in America has a right to an education, public schools are a necessity. You can pull your child out of that school as you see fit, but you don't have the right to pull your tax dollars as well.

657 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:50:04pm

re: #643 SanFranciscoZionist

Harold of England!

658 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:50:26pm

re: #643 SanFranciscoZionist

Can I have a serious link on this business about the Crusades? I've heard that seven or eight times on LGF, and, honestly, it's not supported by anything I know. I'd like to see a source before I call major BS.

Secondly, and I'm about to be a little dicey here, how do we feel about people who call themselves Stalinists? Do we remember what was done in Stalin's name? We sure do. Christianity carries its historical baggage with it like any other faith or movement, and saying that the true faith does not condone such may be true, but it does not wipe out the past.

Those brave Crusaders saving Europe from Islam slaughtered the Jewish community of Jerusalem, after murdering and extorting funds from Jewish communities across Europe. Tell me, who should I have been rooting for in 1066?

Pope Urban II made it pretty clear that he could not stand the idea of infidels holding the holy land.

Here is his speech if you are interested.

[Link: www.fordham.edu...]

There was also the issue of second sons wanting kingdoms of their own...

659 greygandalf  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:51:02pm

re: #653 sattv4u2

It defeated Hitler in Europe in the 40's!

It also helped bring down the soviet union when we assisted in repelling them from afghanistan!

660 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:51:14pm

re: #648 SanFranciscoZionist

sfz, the "crusades" cover a huge period of history. Its very tough to cite one good book.

Here is a list...

661 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:51:53pm

re: #653 sattv4u2

It defeated Hitler in Europe in the 40's!

Pay no mind to what happened for the next 40 years though...

662 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:52:12pm
663 yochanan  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:52:15pm

FRANKLY America never commited genocide against the Jews that was the euro trash's idea

in America we still have freedom of religion sometimes I get the feeling we don't have it on LGF.
WHICH MAKES ME SAD.

664 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:53:02pm
665 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:53:39pm

re: #659 greygandalf

It also helped bring down the soviet union when we assisted in repelling them from afghanistan!

The very same Mujahadeen who later formed Al Qaeda! Perpetrated the 9/11 attacks! And who are now fighting against us in Afghanistan! Using our own weapons that we supplied them!

Brilliant example, I couldn't have come up with a better one myself.

666 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:54:12pm

re: #655 Dianna

I don't see anything wrong with skepticism of anonymity- the argument(s) should be valid or invalid on its/their face, but when an invalid argument is coupled with anonymous sources, more than one flag waves. Credibility matters, and anonymous sources have less to lose than one who is out front and center with who they are. Doesn't mean everything to come from such a source is false, just that due diligence is needed.

667 shortshrift  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:54:58pm

re: #654 LudwigVanQuixote

And then I say, let's get to the real point.. There is a trend at LGF that if you can not get into the real point, then try to snipe with pedantic quibbles about side issues and mock affront.

Your real point here is that you know who you're talking about, and they are really the bad guys, and you are a good guy for hating bad guys however we quibblers and nit-pickers define them. Well, OK, you're a good guy.

668 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:55:22pm

re: #656 drcordell

You can pull your child out of that school as you see fit, but you don't have the right to pull your tax dollars as well.

And again, why not? I have blunted each and every one of your talking points.
OH NOES ,,, If you don't chip into the FAILED public education school system with your tax dollars ,, the public school systems will FAIL!!!

Kinda silly when it's put that way, huh? Unless you're going to tell me that the public school; system is NOT failing. But oh, wait ,, didn;'t YOU point out the abysmal literacy rate? My My ,, what a conundrum you've gotten yourself into!

669 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:55:36pm

re: #663 yochanan

in America we still have freedom of religion sometimes I get the feeling we don't have it on LGF.

I don't know what you're talking about.

670 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:55:42pm

re: #665 drcordell

The very same Mujahadeen who later formed Al Qaeda! Perpetrated the 9/11 attacks! And who are now fighting against us in Afghanistan! Using our own weapons that we supplied them!

Brilliant example, I couldn't have come up with a better one myself.

Not exactly.

The resistance in Afghanistan was a coalition. Al Queda (I want a standard spelling of that promulgated some day) was a funding organization, and appeared fairly late.

671 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:55:45pm

re: #643 SanFranciscoZionist

In the 400 years prior to the Crusades, 2/3rds of the Christian world had fallen to the invading Muslim Empire. The central goal was to liberate these conquered Christian lands. The Crusaders did not invade any land in the Middle east which was not Christian prior to the Muslim conquest. There were other Crusades as well, against heretics in France, and against pagans in the Baltic region, to spread Christianity there. And of course, the movement included a great deal of violence directed at the Jews of Europe.

672 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:56:32pm

re: #668 sattv4u2

You can pull your child out of that school as you see fit, but you don't have the right to pull your tax dollars as well.

And again, why not? I have blunted each and every one of your talking points.
OH NOES ,,, If you don't chip into the FAILED public education school system with your tax dollars ,, the public school systems will FAIL!!!

Kinda silly when it's put that way, huh? Unless you're going to tell me that the public school; system is NOT failing. But oh, wait ,, didn;'t YOU point out the abysmal literacy rate? My My ,, what a conundrum you've gotten yourself into!

Either every child has a right to an education, or they dont. Its that simple.

673 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:56:44pm

re: #661 drcordell

Pay no mind to what happened for the next 40 years though...

I see ,, so it would have benn BETTER for the USA and England to fight both Germany AND Russia in 1940!

hmmm!!

674 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:56:51pm

re: #666 Sharmuta

I don't see anything wrong with skepticism of anonymity- the argument(s) should be valid or invalid on its/their face, but when an invalid argument is coupled with anonymous sources, more than one flag waves. Credibility matters, and anonymous sources have less to lose than one who is out front and center with who they are. Doesn't mean everything to come from such a source is false, just that due diligence is needed.

Oh, agreed.

My rule was formulated purely with actors, singer/songwriters and novelists in mind.

675 Dreader1962  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:57:17pm

re: #651 experiencedtraveller

Call the exterminator, quick!

Buttons back to normal; killed the browser and brought it back up.

Sometimes Firefox messes up. Vista was not the culprit here.

BTW, I have multiple platforms to test my company's software - Vista has to be in the mix because many customers have it. It's not as bad as some portray it, but I've told people that it's not worth upgrading their XP boxes. I'm waiting to see what Windows 7 will be like - apparently they decided to dump the 'sexy' nicknames this time.

676 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:57:19pm

re: #623 shortshrift

So you will not be voting Republican, I take it.

Oh, I would quite seriously consider voting for an actual Republican.

However, the ignorant, irresponsible, rabble-rousing, fear mongering, lying, greedy, corporate bought and paid for, anti-science, race baiting, swine that are the party today, makes it very, very hard for me to like anyone in DC.

To those guys with a conservative loyalty test mentality, you seem to fail to see that the moderates in this country - and I am one, care about as much for GOP shenanigans, dogma and lies about as much as we do for those of the Dems.

The fact is they are both full of garbage.

The other fact is that the GOP has taken a deep turn into crazy land from the top down, and that they are currently the more freakishly dysfunctional party. This is an amazing "achievement" given how messed up the Dems are.

677 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:58:11pm

re: #668 sattv4u2

Not trying to snipe and run away, but dinner was just put on the table, so if you do reply to me, I wont see it for probably close to an hour, I apologize.

678 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:58:50pm

re: #672 McSpiff

Either every child has a right to an education, or they dont. Its that simple.

Every child has the right to equal opportunity , not equal results. Throwing LOTS of good moneis after bad has not bettered the results in public ed. Ask the parents in Washington DC that lost their charter school vouchers!

679 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:59:13pm

re: #673 sattv4u2

I see ,, so it would have benn BETTER for the USA and England to fight both Germany AND Russia in 1940!

hmmm!!

Paging George S. Patton...

680 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 1:59:29pm

re: #670 Dianna

Not exactly.

The resistance in Afghanistan was a coalition. Al Queda (I want a standard spelling of that promulgated some day) was a funding organization, and appeared fairly late.

You can trace a direct line from the extremist Islamic groups we funded via the CIA and Pakistani ISI to Al Qaeda. This is a fact.

681 Dreader1962  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:00:19pm

re: #668 sattv4u2

You can pull your child out of that school as you see fit, but you don't have the right to pull your tax dollars as well.

And again, why not? I have blunted each and every one of your talking points.
OH NOES ,,, If you don't chip into the FAILED public education school system with your tax dollars ,, the public school systems will FAIL!!!

Kinda silly when it's put that way, huh? Unless you're going to tell me that the public school; system is NOT failing. But oh, wait ,, didn;'t YOU point out the abysmal literacy rate? My My ,, what a conundrum you've gotten yourself into!

Yes, and of course without the wonderful government stepping in, most parents will let their children lapse into idiocy because they don't want them to succeed! Same argument that the 'progressives' have always been making. It really frightens them that competition may be introduced into the education arena.

682 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:00:25pm

re: #667 shortshrift

And then I say, let's get to the real point.. There is a trend at LGF that if you can not get into the real point, then try to snipe with pedantic quibbles about side issues and mock affront.

Your real point here is that you know who you're talking about, and they are really the bad guys, and you are a good guy for hating bad guys however we quibblers and nit-pickers define them. Well, OK, you're a good guy.

And your point is to make this about me, rather than to look at the moronic convergence going on in the GOP.

That hole in the sand where you keep your head is warm and waiting. Can we no talk about the real issue or are going to continue to try to dodge the point?

683 shortshrift  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:00:51pm

re: #676 LudwigVanQuixote

Oh, I would quite seriously consider voting for an actual Republican.

However, the ignorant, irresponsible, rabble-rousing, fear mongering, lying, greedy, corporate bought and paid for, anti-science, race baiting, swine that are the party today, makes it very, very hard for me to like anyone in DC.

To those guys with a conservative loyalty test mentality, you seem to fail to see that the moderates in this country - and I am one, care about as much for GOP shenanigans, dogma and lies about as much as we do for those of the Dems.

The fact is they are both full of garbage.

The other fact is that the GOP has taken a deep turn into crazy land from the top down, and that they are currently the more freakishly dysfunctional party. This is an amazing "achievement" given how messed up the Dems are.

So, as things stand, you will not be voting Republican or Democrat, I take it.

684 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:01:12pm

re: #679 Leonidas Hoplite

Paging George S. Patton...

Nahh ,,, he didn't advocate we take on Russia in Europe till AFTER Germany surrendered

685 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:01:15pm

re: #680 drcordell

You can trace a direct line from the extremist Islamic groups we funded via the CIA and Pakistani ISI to Al Qaeda. This is a fact.

Can you not also do the same for the Northern Alliance?

686 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:01:39pm

re: #682 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm sorry, but your tendency is to make everything about you.

687 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:03:00pm

re: #683 shortshrift

So, as things stand, you will not be voting Republican or Democrat, I take it.

What difference does that make in the context of the treasonous turn the GOP has taken?

NO, as it is now, I will likely pinch my nose and vote for Obama because he will be the lesser of evils. This agitates me because I despise Obama. However, he is better than Palin or Huckabee by a lot and I don't see Romney (whom I also despise, but less than Obama) getting the nod.

688 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:03:04pm

re: #668 sattv4u2

You can pull your child out of that school as you see fit, but you don't have the right to pull your tax dollars as well.

And again, why not? I have blunted each and every one of your talking points.
OH NOES ,,, If you don't chip into the FAILED public education school system with your tax dollars ,, the public school systems will FAIL!!!

Kinda silly when it's put that way, huh? Unless you're going to tell me that the public school; system is NOT failing. But oh, wait ,, didn;'t YOU point out the abysmal literacy rate? My My ,, what a conundrum you've gotten yourself into!

You just ignored my entire argument. You can talk a big game about abolishing the public school system because it sucks. But when asked to provide a practical solution for an all-private school system, it doesn't work.

Private schools are just that. Private. If you start mandating that every child in America must have a right to an education, then obviously private schools would be forced to accept certain students. And private school curriculum would have to be approved in some way by the government to ensure the children were actually being taught something. And at that point the "private" schools are basically just public schools run for a profit, so what's the fucking point?

689 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:03:04pm

re: #680 drcordell

You can trace a direct line from the extremist Islamic groups we funded via the CIA and Pakistani ISI to Al Qaeda. This is a fact.

If I gave it 8 seconds of thought I could trace a direct line from George Washington and the Federalists to Ron Paul!

BOO!

690 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:03:37pm

re: #670 Dianna

Not exactly.

The resistance in Afghanistan was a coalition. Al Queda (I want a standard spelling of that promulgated some day) was a funding organization, and appeared fairly late.

There is a good deal of confusion about these various groups in Afghanistan. The US supported various mujaheddin factions in the Russian/Afghan war, but they did not support Osama bin Laden. The US supported only Afghani fighters, not any Arab groups. Some of the fighters the US supported later fought for control of Afghanistan in the civil war of the early 1990's. The Taliban was formed in the early 1990s, from Afghan refugees who were trained in Saudi funded madrassas. Bin Laden formed Al Qaeda in the mid 1990's. Some of the people the US supported later allied with the Taliban. The Taliban allied itself with Al Qaeda.

To be clear: the US did not support the Taliban or Al Qaeda, as they did not exist at the time.

691 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:03:47pm

re: #685 Leonidas Hoplite

Can you not also do the same for the Northern Alliance?

Yes. Again proving that the enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend.

692 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:03:54pm
693 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:04:06pm

re: #681 Dreader1962

Yes, and of course without the wonderful government stepping in, most parents will let their children lapse into idiocy because they don't want them to succeed! Same argument that the 'progressives' have always been making. It really frightens them that competition may be introduced into the education arena.

It terrifies them because public education is a bastion of power for the left. Just like they are trying to do with health care. It's not about doing good, doing the right thing, helping people, it is all about taking and holding political power.

694 Sharmuta  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:04:25pm

re: #674 Dianna

Oh, agreed.

My rule was formulated purely with actors, singer/songwriters and novelists in mind.

You were perhaps more prescient than you realized.

695 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:05:38pm

re: #688 drcordell

You can talk a big game about abolishing the public school system because it sucks

Where have I EVER done that?

And private school curriculum would have to be approved in some way by the government to ensure the children were actually being taught something.

To be accredited, a private school already has to do that! You are showing how out of your realm you are now. Sorry!

696 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:05:39pm

re: #691 drcordell

Yes. Again proving that the enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend.

Proof to you.

697 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:06:10pm

re: #665 drcordell

The very same Mujahadeen who later formed Al Qaeda! Perpetrated the 9/11 attacks! And who are now fighting against us in Afghanistan! Using our own weapons that we supplied them!

Brilliant example, I couldn't have come up with a better one myself.

That is not true. The US did not support any Arab mujaheddin in the Russian/Afghan war. Bin Laden & Zawahiri denied ever receiving help from the US. The US denied ever offering them help. The Pakistanis corroborated this.

698 yochanan  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:06:20pm

WELL if snicklegruber hadn't stabbed the soviets in the back we could have been fighting the Nazi's with out Russian help. and who knows they might have even supported the Nazi's although i think they would have just sat out the war. the first two years the Brits with some help from the french were in it alone. the soviets called it a imperialist war. the communist parties in the west were for peace until their soviet masters got stabbed in the back.

699 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:06:24pm

re: #690 Kenneth

There is a good deal of confusion about these various groups in Afghanistan. The US supported various mujaheddin factions in the Russian/Afghan war, but they did not support Osama bin Laden. The US supported only Afghani fighters, not any Arab groups. Some of the fighters the US supported later fought for control of Afghanistan in the civil war of the early 1990's. The Taliban was formed in the early 1990s, from Afghan refugees who were trained in Saudi funded madrassas. Bin Laden formed Al Qaeda in the mid 1990's. Some of the people the US supported later allied with the Taliban. The Taliban allied itself with Al Qaeda.

To be clear: the US did not support the Taliban or Al Qaeda, as they did not exist at the time.

Right. But we did fund the most extremist Islamic Fundamentalists in Afghanistan at the time, because we found that they were the most effective fighters. So we trained radical Islamists in guerilla warfare and bomb-making, and then armed them. And they fought the Soviets well. And then because they were still radical Islamists, they turned their attentions to global Islamic jihad. And from this muddled nexus of Islamic fundamentalism and western guerilla/bomb training emerged Al Qaeda among other groups.

700 Charpete67  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:06:31pm

re: #691 drcordell

Yes. Again proving that the enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend.

don't forget the French...//

701 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:06:46pm

re: #686 Dianna

I'm sorry, but your tendency is to make everything about you.

Dianna, you too... Hmmm... OK I know you don't like my views, so why not look at the actual issue at hand rather than attacking me?

My Claim is that the GOP is purposefully fueling some of the darkest threads in American history and bringing the racism and fear of loss of position of a convergence of the whacko right and the Jesus oriented whacko right, into the mainstream.

My claim is that this is dangerous.

My claim is that this is not good for America. I really can back that up if we get on to an actual conversation.

So just to get it out of the way...

I don't care if you think that my stubborn refusal to sugarcoat the facts for you nicely appeals to you at all. How about we look at the facts?

702 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:07:34pm

re: #694 Sharmuta

You were perhaps more prescient than you realized.

in bed!

703 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:07:57pm

re: #680 drcordell

You can trace a direct line from the extremist Islamic groups we funded via the CIA and Pakistani ISI to Al Qaeda. This is a fact.

Then I challenge you to do so. Put up or shut up. The fact is the US denied helping Bin Laden. Bin Laden denied getting help from the US. The Pak ISI denied providing US aid to Bin Laden.

704 shortshrift  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:08:17pm

re: #682 LudwigVanQuixote

And your point is to make this about me, rather than to look at the moronic convergence going on in the GOP.

That hole in the sand where you keep your head is warm and waiting. Can we no talk about the real issue or are going to continue to try to dodge the point?

But the recognition of moronic convergence has a political significance for you more acutely than for others. I do not deny that there may be morons, though I have some doubt as to the strength of the convergence, but what is really important is that I hear your political anguish.

705 Racer X  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:08:47pm

Afghan thread is this way - - ->

706 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:09:09pm

re: #703 Kenneth

Then I challenge you to do so. Put up or shut up. The fact is the US denied helping Bin Laden. Bin Laden denied getting help from the US. The Pak ISI denied providing US aid to Bin Laden.

but , But , BUT ,, REAGAN ,, BUSH ,, HALIBURTON!!

707 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:09:31pm

re: #675 Dreader1962

My VISTA laptop sits forlornly in yonder corner where I flung it last week.

It's sorry. I know it is sorry. It says it will behave better. But I find forgiveness difficult at this time so it is getting a timeout.

And I'm mad at HP for selling me a box that didn't have nearly enough RAM to run its operating system.

I hear Win7 is good but I heard that about VISTA too...

708 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:10:07pm
709 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:10:11pm

re: #697 Kenneth

That is not true. The US did not support any Arab mujaheddin in the Russian/Afghan war. Bin Laden & Zawahiri denied ever receiving help from the US. The US denied ever offering them help. The Pakistanis corroborated this.

I'm not sure if you're making a semantic differentiation between Arab Islamic fighters and Afghani Islamic fighters? But rest assured, we funded the most radical Islamists in Afghanistan. Both directly through the CIA and indirectly through the ISI. May I suggest reading Steven Coll's "Ghost Wars." Excellent primer on the topic.

Amazon

710 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:10:25pm

re: #686 Dianna

And one other thing Dianna, I am not certain where you seem to think that I pissed in your coffee, but that also does not effect the truth of what is being said.

OH and,

AGW is real.

Care to debate facts about that? When foolish people talk like creationists, how do we treat anti-science types at LGF? Does it bother you that the unthinking, non-scientific, falsehoods of many here have been called what they were - unthinking, unscientific falsehoods?

Well too bad.

Call the Whaaambulance and cry me a river.

711 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:11:16pm

re: #708 buzzsawmonkey

I thought it was "Tinker, Evers, Chance."

Thats so 1902 ish

712 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:12:01pm
713 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:12:03pm

re: #703 Kenneth

Then I challenge you to do so. Put up or shut up. The fact is the US denied helping Bin Laden. Bin Laden denied getting help from the US. The Pak ISI denied providing US aid to Bin Laden.

Just gave you the link to the book, one of many. The fact that we actively fomented Islamic fundamentalist in Afghanistan to impede the Soviets is not some crazy conspiracy theory I came up with.

714 Lincolntf  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:12:05pm

re: #701 LudwigVanQuixote

Where are the "racism and fear" really coming from?
The President and his knee-jerk racist attack on the Cambridge PD? The Black Panther thugs at voting booths? The Speaker of the House branding town hall attendees as Nazi's? The pro-Government SEIU hoodlums beating a black man? The ex-Klansman in the Senate being showered with pork-funded public monuments?

There is a lot of hate/race-based crap being flung around these days, and as far as I can tell it's all coming from the port side.

715 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:15:02pm

re: #695 sattv4u2

You can talk a big game about abolishing the public school system because it sucks

Where have I EVER done that?

And private school curriculum would have to be approved in some way by the government to ensure the children were actually being taught something.

To be accredited, a private school already has to do that! You are showing how out of your realm you are now. Sorry!

I'm done discussing this with you as your density is impenetrable. You clearly cannot understand the difference between the extremely limited private schooling option that exists in America today, and crafting a national privatized education system that must accomodate every single student in the country.

By definition the current private schools can accept or deny whichever students they want. So they for the most part accept intelligent and wealthy students that can pass their entrance exams and afford the tuition. So NO FUCKING SHIT their students achieve more than public school students. That doesn't prove anything, other than private schools only accept who they want.

716 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:15:18pm

re: #660 experiencedtraveller

sfz, the "crusades" cover a huge period of history. Its very tough to cite one good book.

Here is a list...

Being a European history major, I've read a few books about the period. I guess I should clarify. I'm looking for a reputable scholarly source to back up the claim that the early Crusades were wars of defense, fought to stop the spread of religious Islam.

717 shortshrift  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:15:26pm

re: #687 LudwigVanQuixote

What difference does that make in the context of the treasonous turn the GOP has taken?

NO, as it is now, I will likely pinch my nose and vote for Obama because he will be the lesser of evils. This agitates me because I despise Obama. However, he is better than Palin or Huckabee by a lot and I don't see Romney (whom I also despise, but less than Obama) getting the nod.

Well, voting Democrat would give the treasonous GOP its comeuppance.
Though I do sympathize with you for what will be a torturous experience when you do vote for Obama.

718 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:16:13pm

re: #699 drcordell

Some of the warlords the US supported became our allies after 9-11, such as the Northern Alliance, and Hamid Karzai. Some, such as Gulbadin Hekmater (sp?) supported the Taliban. It is a distortion and an exaggeration to say the Taliban & AQ were are fighting now were created by the US during the Russian war.

Are you arguing the US should not have supported anybody during the Russian invasion, and let the USSR swallow Afghanistan, or that the US should have responded with an invasion of her own troops back then? Do you have an alternative strategy the US should have pursued then?

719 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:16:21pm

re: #714 Lincolntf

There is a lot of hate/race-based crap being flung around these days, and as far as I can tell it's all coming from the port side.

That's just ridiculous. There's plenty of race-baiting going on FROM BOTH SIDES, no matter how much you want to blame it all on the heinous liberals.

720 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:16:39pm

re: #693 Leonidas Hoplite

It terrifies them because public education is a bastion of power for the left. Just like they are trying to do with health care. It's not about doing good, doing the right thing, helping people, it is all about taking and holding political power.

Good point.
If children had a real education, they would have grown up capable of seeing through Obama. Look at how well the left-controlled educational system paid off.

721 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:17:42pm

re: #706 sattv4u2

re: #703 Kenneth

Oh for crying out loud, the Mujahadeen were even the Heros in a Rambo movie and a James Bond movie back when we were arming them to fight the Soviets.

Here is some history...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I just do not know how people are capable of revisionism of events that were well publicized and romanticized even in their own lifetimes.

722 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:18:23pm

re: #701 LudwigVanQuixote

If you'd just left off the first and last paragraphs, we'd be fine.

But not you. Your first paragraph insults me, and so does your last. How am I supposed to discuss anything with you?

It's not so much, btw, that I dislike your views. I dislike your method of presentation.

Try removing the first and last paragraphs of #701. Just start there.

723 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:18:35pm

re: #699 drcordell

Bin Laden was anti-Western to begin with. If you care to read anything about the history of Islam, from the 7th century on, that tendency has been present from the get go. US foreign policy in the lat 20th century is irrelevant.

724 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:18:39pm

re: #720 Kosh's Shadow

Good point.
If children had a real education, they would have grown up capable of seeing through Obama. Look at how well the left-controlled educational system paid off.

You are so right. The "leftist" indoctrination public school system we have worked so well that those crazy libruls Nixon, Reagan, Bush and W Bush all cruised into office without any resistance at all! *facepalm*

725 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:19:54pm

re: #671 Kenneth

In the 400 years prior to the Crusades, 2/3rds of the Christian world had fallen to the invading Muslim Empire. The central goal was to liberate these conquered Christian lands. The Crusaders did not invade any land in the Middle east which was not Christian prior to the Muslim conquest. There were other Crusades as well, against heretics in France, and against pagans in the Baltic region, to spread Christianity there. And of course, the movement included a great deal of violence directed at the Jews of Europe.

I would be happy to describe it as a land war (in Asia, even). Presenting the Crusades, as they actually emerged, as a war of defense, is silly.

726 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:21:00pm

re: #710 LudwigVanQuixote

Once more, I remind you that I am not a climatologist. And - by your claims (which I cannot prove or disprove) - neither are you.

You supply some interesting links, which I read.

I dispute the apocalyptic language of your posts, not your linkage.

727 Charpete67  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:21:19pm

re: #723 Kenneth

Bin Laden was anti-Western to begin with. If you care to read anything about the history of Islam, from the 7th century on, that tendency has been present from the get go. US foreign policy in the lat 20th century is irrelevant.

didn't UBL's anger start with the first gulf war?...he wanted to defend Kuwait and Saudi Arabia from Saddam Hussein and felt jilted when the Saudi's turned to the US for help instead of him.

728 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:21:22pm

re: #716 SanFranciscoZionist

Being a European history major, I've read a few books about the period. I guess I should clarify. I'm looking for a reputable scholarly source to back up the claim that the early Crusades were wars of defense, fought to stop the spread of religious Islam.

LIke I said, Urban II was very clear as to why the Crusaders were going. He really wasn't talking about saving Europe from invasion. Rather, he was quite clearly talking about invading the other way. As to whether the medieval Muslims or the Medieval Christians were a better sort of folk, is another discussion - and also irrelevant to the false point that some revisionist people keep trying to make.

Once again, oh ye revisionists, don't take my word for it, take the Pope's

[Link: www.fordham.edu...]

729 Shug  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:22:07pm

so Ron Paul is now running the democratic party too?

oh noes

730 Lincolntf  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:23:04pm

re: #719 Charles

I can't think of a single prominent Republican who has had a "race" incident recently. Unless we're counting "macaca" as major.
Whereas with the Dems we have Obama's ham-handed rush to racist conclusions regarding Gates, the beating of the black protester, the "typical white person" condescension, etc.
Just like anti-Semitism, racism looms large in the Dem Party.

731 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:23:39pm
732 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:23:44pm

re: #715 drcordell

I'm done discussing this with you as your density is impenetrable

You're not aware that private schools have to have their school curriculum checked by the state AND okayed to be accredited but it is ME that is "dense" about this subject!

mmmkkaayyy!

733 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:25:32pm

re: #723 Kenneth

Bin Laden was anti-Western to begin with. If you care to read anything about the history of Islam, from the 7th century on, that tendency has been present from the get go. US foreign policy in the lat 20th century is irrelevant.

Ah yes, the monolithic, homogenous fifteen hundred years of Muslim society.

734 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:25:34pm
735 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:25:54pm

re: #718 Kenneth

Some of the warlords the US supported became our allies after 9-11, such as the Northern Alliance, and Hamid Karzai. Some, such as Gulbadin Hekmater (sp?) supported the Taliban. It is a distortion and an exaggeration to say the Taliban & AQ were are fighting now were created by the US during the Russian war.

Are you arguing the US should not have supported anybody during the Russian invasion, and let the USSR swallow Afghanistan, or that the US should have responded with an invasion of her own troops back then? Do you have an alternative strategy the US should have pursued then?

It is not a distortion to say that the groups we funded in the 80's have direct ties to the modern Islamic Jihadists that we are fighting today. They are not exactly the same groups. They are not exactly the same leaders. But when we selectively funded the most radical Islamist groups to fight the Soviets, we funded people who believed in global Islamic Jihad. And that ideology, coupled with the training and weapons we gave them, provided the nexus that spawned the next generation of global Islamic terror groups.

Again, returning to the point we digressed from, the foreign policy strategy of allying yourself with your enemy's enemy is not beneficial in the long term. Funding and arming both Saddam Hussein AND Iran is another example that comes to mind. How'd both of those regimes work out for us?

736 tradewind  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:26:06pm
Ron Paul’s Federal Reserve Transparency Act (H.R. 1207) will enable the congress to influence the outcomes of monetary policy through an audit of the Federal Reserve’s day-to-day operations, thus severely compromising the independence of the U.S. central bank from political influences.


yet now it's free from those political influences ...
Really??

737 yochanan  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:26:26pm

re: #730 Lincolntf

IF you call playing the 'race card' racism and I do all of that is coming from the donks, now other forms of racism come from both parties

and currently the only major party that seems to have a problem with anti semitism seems to be the democrats. as the right wing anti semites mostly aren't republicans i.e. rat pukanan

738 shortshrift  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:26:33pm

re: #716 SanFranciscoZionist

Being a European history major, I've read a few books about the period. I guess I should clarify. I'm looking for a reputable scholarly source to back up the claim that the early Crusades were wars of defense, fought to stop the spread of religious Islam.

And here is your reputable, scholarly source for what you are not looking for:
re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote

739 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:26:40pm

re: #734 buzzsawmonkey

Since you are so "dense," you have just won a seat at the Periodic Table! Congratulations; I hope you're in your element!

It's difficult, but I'll sulpher through it!

740 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:26:42pm

re: #726 Dianna

Once more, I remind you that I am not a climatologist. And - by your claims (which I cannot prove or disprove) - neither are you.

You supply some interesting links, which I read.

I dispute the apocalyptic language of your posts, not your linkage.

By my claims neither am I? You see this is the kind of thing that gets really old.

My claim about my expertise, is that I work in Chaos and Non-linear Dynamics and that I have the technical background to actually get into the science of climatology. However, this is not about me, as you keep trying to make it.

If you wish to discuss AGW, I really don't care if you think that I am a first grader.

Look at the science and process it. The predictions that I am making are the ones supported by the evidence and the community. I am not sure why you feel the need to discount them. If you were actually reading the links I provide, you will see that I am not just making this up.

However, again, it is easier to attack me than it is to actually process that the projections are very very bad indeed. Actually look at the science and stop the whining about me.

741 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:26:46pm

re: #709 drcordell

The difference between Afghan mujaheddin and Arab mujaheddin is not semantic, but ethnic. Afghans are not Arabs. Bin Laden is Arab. See?

The US did not fund bin Laden. Peter Bergen interviewed bin Laden in 1998 and asked him if he got support from the US. Osama told him, "they did not offer us any help and we would not have accepted help if they did."

742 Charpete67  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:27:20pm

re: #730 Lincolntf

I can't think of a single prominent Republican who has had a "race" incident recently. Unless we're counting "macaca" as major.
Whereas with the Dems we have Obama's ham-handed rush to racist conclusions regarding Gates, the beating of the black protester, the "typical white person" condescension, etc.
Just like anti-Semitism, racism looms large in the Dem Party.

I think what is really infuriating is the left constantly accusing the right of being racist at every turn...like this little gem

Youtube Video
743 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:27:31pm

re: #732 sattv4u2

I'm done discussing this with you as your density is impenetrable

You're not aware that private schools have to have their school curriculum checked by the state AND okayed to be accredited but it is ME that is "dense" about this subject!

mmmkkaayyy!

I'll print my response AGAIN to see if you can manage to read the whole thing. I'm not holding my breath...

You clearly cannot understand the difference between the extremely limited private schooling option that exists in America today, and crafting a national privatized education system that must accomodate every single student in the country.

By definition the current private schools can accept or deny whichever students they want. So they for the most part accept intelligent and wealthy students that can pass their entrance exams and afford the tuition. So NO FUCKING SHIT their students achieve more than public school students. That doesn't prove anything, other than private schools only accept who they want.

744 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:27:49pm

re: #735 drcordell

the foreign policy strategy of allying yourself with your enemy's enemy is not beneficial in the long term. Funding and arming both Saddam Hussein AND Iran is another example that comes to mind. How'd both of those regimes work out for us?

So, what would you have done at the time?

745 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:28:30pm

re: #738 shortshrift

And here is your reputable, scholarly source for what you are not looking for:
re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah, but I've read Urban's speech before. I've even heard it performed!

;)

746 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:29:15pm

re: #744 Leonidas Hoplite

So, what would you have done at the time?

Was letting them kill each other off without funding/arming either an option?

747 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:30:32pm

re: #678 sattv4u2

Every child has the right to equal opportunity , not equal results. Throwing LOTS of good moneis after bad has not bettered the results in public ed. Ask the parents in Washington DC that lost their charter school vouchers!

How do you give equal opportunity without the use of tax dollars? There are parents that cant afford to put their children in school. How do you put them in a school without the use of tax dollars.

748 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:31:05pm

re: #721 LudwigVanQuixote

Please read my posts before you go off like that.

The US supported Afghan mujaheddin during the Russian war. Nobody disputes that. Some of those fighters later allied with the Taliban, but they did not form the Taliban. Some of the Afghan mujaheddin later become US allies after 9-11, including the Northern Alliance and Hamid Karzai. The US did not support Arab fighters going to Afghanistan. The Saudis did. The Pakistanis funneled aid to both Arabs & Afghans. The Iranians supported another set of mujaheddin.

749 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:31:28pm

re: #743 drcordell

crafting a national privatized education system that must accomodate every single student in the country.

And I still await you showing me where I ever
A) called for the abolition of public ed
and
B) called for a NATIONAL "privatized" ed system

In that it's the thrid time you've brought it up and the second time I've asked for MY words stating it, I'll take that as a ,,ummm!!!

750 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:31:30pm

re: #740 LudwigVanQuixote

I work in Chaos

Paging Maxwell Smart and Agent 99...

751 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:31:54pm

re: #740 LudwigVanQuixote

I look for your links, but don't discuss GW (A or other) with you. I don't have the background, and your language when you do deign to descend from your throne to discuss the issue, reads like apocalyptic crisis hysteria.

I have a strong dislike of hysterics. I'm a highly emotional person, and excitable. It's a trait I don't care for in myself, and deeply distrust in others.

752 Charpete67  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:32:02pm

re: #747 McSpiff

How do you give equal opportunity without the use of tax dollars? There are parents that cant afford to put their children in school. How do you put them in a school without the use of tax dollars.

...maybe you could create a sort of public option for education...//

753 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:32:18pm

re: #743 drcordell


By definition the current private schools can accept or deny whichever students they want. So they for the most part accept intelligent and wealthy students that can pass their entrance exams and afford the tuition. So NO FUCKING SHIT their students achieve more than public school students. That doesn't prove anything, other than private schools only accept who they want.

I've worked at private schools. We only take the qualified.

I've worked at charter schools. We kick out people who aren't contributing to our success.

I've worked at public schools. If your kid is fairly close to 98.6, we must give him or her an education.

This is why I'm a little skepticla about the KIPP schools 'miracle'. It's a very good program, but it's also going to be impossible to reproduce without a highly self-selected student and parent body.

754 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:32:48pm

re: #731 buzzsawmonkey

I hate the promiscuous throwing about of the word "treason" because it cheapens the meaning, just as it does the word "fascism" when that is overused.

Yes, the GOP seems adrift from its moorings. On the other hand, the Party in Power is likewise adrift--creating new "rights," new "entitlements" that it cannot fund, taking it upon itself to explore ever deeper into the soft tissues of our liberties with a vibrating electric probe.

Which brings up the question of why, exactly, Obama is better in your view than Palin or Huckabee. I don't like the religiosity of the latter two--but I don't like the secular evangelism of Obama either. I don't like Palin's or Huckabee's tenuous grasp on modern science, but I don't like Obama's whiteknuckled deathgrip on voodoo economics, either.

My question is why an extra 4 years of Obama's particular idiocies is preferable, in your view, to exchanging them for the mirror-image, counterbalancing idiocies of one of the others? Would it not make sense to shorten the pendlum's arc so that the wrecking ball at the end gathers less momentum?

Ok it is very simple.

1. AGW is the biggest threat to the world right now.

Obama is taking the wrong measures now, but he might be convincible to do something better.

Palin and Huckabee don't believe it exists.

2. Obama may have terrible foreign policy, but he at least respects the notion that the President does not have unlimited power, and he has read the constitution.

Palin and Huckabee, don't believe the Constitution should hinder their style, and Palin in particular does not understand it on even the most basic level as revealed in interview after interview.

3. Palin and Huckabee are stupid fear mongering populists who have no scruple against fermenting the worst sorts of anti-Americanism from Americans themselves. Obama does not do this.

How do not see the callous danger that the GOP is fermenting in the crazy sphere, by making crazy mainstream?

755 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:32:57pm

re: #746 drcordell

Was letting them kill each other off without funding/arming either an option?

I don't know, I'm asking what you would have done if you had been in a poition to do something.

756 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:32:59pm

re: #741 Kenneth

The difference between Afghan mujaheddin and Arab mujaheddin is not semantic, but ethnic. Afghans are not Arabs. Bin Laden is Arab. See?

The US did not fund bin Laden. Peter Bergen interviewed bin Laden in 1998 and asked him if he got support from the US. Osama told him, "they did not offer us any help and we would not have accepted help if they did."

I got it chief. I'm not going to keep explaining this when you don't pay attention to what I am saying. The radical Islamists that we funded shared bin laden's world view that global islamic jihad was necessary. So although we didnt DIRECTLY give bin laden money, we gave people who he would later associate both funding and training in bombing/guerilla warfare. Training that has since been passed on to generations of terrorists that we have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan.

When we decided that allying ourselves with self-proclaimed Islamic Fundamentalists whose stated goal was global jihad, we fucked up. We simply thought that it wouldn't ever blow up in our face because at the time they were directing their anger at the Soviets. It was short-sighted and it fucked us pretty hard in the long run.

757 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:33:54pm

re: #746 drcordell

Was letting them kill each other off without funding/arming either an option?

Maybe not. There's oil involved, and the Soviets were a serious outmatch for the unassisted 'mooj' as I believe the CIA used to affectionately call them.

758 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:34:08pm

re: #735 drcordell

Again, returning to the point we digressed from, the foreign policy strategy of allying yourself with your enemy's enemy is not beneficial in the long term. Funding and arming both Saddam Hussein AND Iran is another example that comes to mind. How'd both of those regimes work out for us?

Well, it did keep either of those two countries from dominating the region. Can you propose a realistic alternative strategy? Should the US have left Iran & Iraq to fight each other alone? How would it furthered US interests to let either one of those win control of the Persian Gulf?

759 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:34:21pm

re: #756 drcordell

I got it chief. I'm not going to keep explaining this when you don't pay attention to what I am saying. The radical Islamists that we funded shared bin laden's world view that global islamic jihad was necessary. So although we didnt DIRECTLY give bin laden money, we gave people who he would later associate both funding and training in bombing/guerilla warfare. Training that has since been passed on to generations of terrorists that we have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan.

When we decided that allying ourselves with self-proclaimed Islamic Fundamentalists whose stated goal was global jihad, we fucked up. We simply thought that it wouldn't ever blow up in our face because at the time they were directing their anger at the Soviets. It was short-sighted and it fucked us pretty hard in the long run.

Road paved with good intentions and all that.

760 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:34:37pm

re: #755 Leonidas Hoplite

I don't know, I'm asking what you would have done if you had been in a poition to do something.

I'm saying that I would not provide arms or cash to someone whose only shared value with the United States was a hatred of one of our enemies.

761 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:35:04pm

re: #738 shortshrift

And here is your reputable, scholarly source for what you are not looking for:
re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote

And this is where I call you a moron.

Let's roll the Pope...

Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."

762 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:35:52pm

re: #760 drcordell

I'm saying that I would not provide arms or cash to someone whose only shared value with the United States was a hatred of one of our enemies.

So you would have done nothing. Thanks for the clarification.

763 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:37:27pm

re: #747 McSpiff

How do you give equal opportunity without the use of tax dollars? There are parents that cant afford to put their children in school. How do you put them in a school without the use of tax dollars.

A) let parents AND THEIR TAX DOLLARS (property tax that is earmarked for public ed) opt out of the public system. This will do several things.
1) it will foster greater need for private schools
2) it will force those schools to now compete for your education doallrs, much like Lowes competes against Home Depot for your home improvement needs
3) it cuts down on class sizes in the PUBLIC schools, thereby helping them out
4) it incentivises parents of children in private schools to ensure their children are working for that the parents are paying for


As soon as I hit reply, I'll think of at least 5 others

764 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:37:39pm

re: #758 Kenneth

Well, it did keep either of those two countries from dominating the region. Can you propose a realistic alternative strategy? Should the US have left Iran & Iraq to fight each other alone? How would it furthered US interests to let either one of those win control of the Persian Gulf?

We funded and armed both sides. That seems pretty equivalent to just doing nothing, doesn't it? And I hate to break it to you, but Iran now does dominate the region. We crowned them when we overthrew Saddam Hussein and ousted a Sunni dictator who ruled a majority Shia nation whose natural ally in the region is Iran.

765 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:37:44pm

re: #761 LudwigVanQuixote

Uh, I thought shortshrift was pointing out that your source was correct, and challenged the revisionist interpretation. Maybe I totally missed it.

766 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:38:04pm

re: #756 drcordell

I got it chief. I'm not going to keep explaining this when you don't pay attention to what I am saying. The radical Islamists that we funded shared bin laden's world view that global islamic jihad was necessary. So although we didnt DIRECTLY give bin laden money, we gave people who he would later associate both funding and training in bombing/guerilla warfare. Training that has since been passed on to generations of terrorists that we have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan.

When we decided that allying ourselves with self-proclaimed Islamic Fundamentalists whose stated goal was global jihad, we fucked up. We simply thought that it wouldn't ever blow up in our face because at the time they were directing their anger at the Soviets. It was short-sighted and it fucked us pretty hard in the long run.

That is a more nuanced description of the interaction between the players than you started with. So what you are saying is instead of supporting the only people available to fight the Russians, we should have let them have Afghanistan? In case you forgot, the USSR had similar goals of world domination and the nuclear weapons to back it up. Was there some other army that was going to fight them in Afghanistan?

767 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:38:32pm

re: #762 Leonidas Hoplite

So you would have done nothing. Thanks for the clarification.

And how exactly would have staying out of the clusterfuck and not arming two despotic regimes hurt us?

768 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:39:14pm

re: #751 Dianna

I look for your links, but don't discuss GW (A or other) with you. I don't have the background, and your language when you do deign to descend from your throne to discuss the issue, reads like apocalyptic crisis hysteria.

I have a strong dislike of hysterics. I'm a highly emotional person, and excitable. It's a trait I don't care for in myself, and deeply distrust in others.

Dianna - The situation is as grave as I claim it is, and if you deigned to actually look at the projections, you wuld know that I am in the middle ground of the community on how bad I think things will get.

You would also know that even the gentlest predictions would still crash our economy worldwide and lead to millions of deaths.

So do me a favor and stop telling me what you think of me. I really don't care. I am not on LGF because I feel a need to be loved by you. Look consistently at the science and cut the crap.

769 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:40:16pm

re: #765 SanFranciscoZionist

Uh, I thought shortshrift was pointing out that your source was correct, and challenged the revisionist interpretation. Maybe I totally missed it.

I may well have misread. If so, my apologies to Shortshrift.

770 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:40:25pm

re: #768 LudwigVanQuixote

After you. Because, frankly, you fling far more crap than anyone else does.

771 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:40:37pm

re: #767 drcordell

And how exactly would have staying out of the clusterfuck and not arming two despotic regimes hurt us?

Strengthened the Soviets, militarily and globally. There was also, with a few folks, a humanitarian concern for the Afghans.

772 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:41:18pm

re: #771 SanFranciscoZionist

Strengthened the Soviets, militarily and globally. There was also, with a few folks, a humanitarian concern for the Afghans.

A concern we are totally lacking when it comes to the Chechens, of course.

773 Athos  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:41:34pm

re: #735 drcordell

They are not exactly the same groups. They are not exactly the same leaders. But when we selectively funded the most radical Islamist groups to fight the Soviets, we funded people who believed in global Islamic Jihad.

Source for the 'most radical islamist groups'?

In fact, in The Looming Tower, (pg 100) there were about 170 militias in Afghanistan fighting the Soviets, and the ISI selected 6 to fund...including what became the Northern Alliance and the Taliban. Hekmatayar's org was one of these - but interestingly, Saudi Prince Turki who also was arranging funding didn't like these 6 groups, and focused his efforts and those of the Saudi state on Ittihad-e-Islami which was privately funded by Osama Bin Ladeen and other individuals - not by the ISI or US. (There was a huge difference between the Afghan mujahedeen and the Arab fighters there - in terms of quality and focus)

Funding and arming both Saddam Hussein AND Iran is another example that comes to mind.

Speaking of revisionism, just how many US sourced jet fighters did Iraq have? How many main battle tanks? How many artillery pieces? Why was the primary infantry armament Russian as opposed to US if the US armed Saddam? As for that, how much has the US given Iran since 1978 except for the Iran-Contra fiasaco?

774 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:42:00pm

re: #738 shortshrift

And here is your reputable, scholarly source for what you are not looking for:
re: #728 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, I missed the not when I read your quote. My apologies.

775 shortshrift  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:42:03pm

re: #754 LudwigVanQuixote

Ok it is very simple.

1. AGW is the biggest threat to the world right now.

Obama is taking the wrong measures now, but he might be convincible to do something better.

Palin and Huckabee don't believe it exists.

2. Obama may have terrible foreign policy, but he at least respects the notion that the President does not have unlimited power, and he has read the constitution.

Palin and Huckabee, don't believe the Constitution should hinder their style, and Palin in particular does not understand it on even the most basic level as revealed in interview after interview.

3. Palin and Huckabee are stupid fear mongering populists who have no scruple against fermenting the worst sorts of anti-Americanism from Americans themselves. Obama does not do this.

How do not see the callous danger that the GOP is fermenting in the crazy sphere, by making crazy mainstream?

Yes, with these climatic and political fears, I would recommend that you vote for Obama. Hoping for change would be comforting psychologically.

776 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:42:51pm

re: #750 Leonidas Hoplite

Paging Maxwell Smart and Agent 99...

funny...

777 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:43:06pm

re: #766 Kenneth

That is a more nuanced description of the interaction between the players than you started with. So what you are saying is instead of supporting the only people available to fight the Russians, we should have let them have Afghanistan? In case you forgot, the USSR had similar goals of world domination and the nuclear weapons to back it up. Was there some other army that was going to fight them in Afghanistan?

Christ. Are we still fighting the Cold War? Is it not common knowledge now that the Soviet Union was completely dysfunctional and well on its way to collapse throughout the 80's. So they take over Afghanistan... and then still collapse several years later having added yet another failed state they have to manage to their failed economy. What the fuck would it have mattered if they took Afghanistan over? I fail to see why the United States had any interest in ensuring the Soviets didn't take over Afghanistan other than the "dominoes" theory. Who. Fucking. Cares.

778 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:43:35pm

re: #763 sattv4u2

A) let parents AND THEIR TAX DOLLARS (property tax that is earmarked for public ed) opt out of the public system. This will do several things.
1) it will foster greater need for private schools
2) it will force those schools to now compete for your education doallrs, much like Lowes competes against Home Depot for your home improvement needs
3) it cuts down on class sizes in the PUBLIC schools, thereby helping them out
4) it incentivises parents of children in private schools to ensure their children are working for that the parents are paying for

As soon as I hit reply, I'll think of at least 5 others

Actually, a voucher system would accomplish this.

The biggest problem I see is that special ed takes a lot of money. Many private schools cannot take kids who need it. They'd all end up in the public system, with few other students, which would make the public system look ridiculously expensive.

I live in a small town, not large enough for its own special ed. We pay some ridiculous amount to a neighboring town to take the kids, and I mean one additional student can make a difference in funding in this town.
IIRC, we are talking about over 10x the cost of a regular student.

I haven't come up with a way to handle this in a voucher system, not that it is working that well in the system we have now.

779 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:43:55pm
780 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:44:16pm

re: #773 Athos

Speaking of revisionism, just how many US sourced jet fighters did Iraq have? How many main battle tanks? How many artillery pieces? Why was the primary infantry armament Russian as opposed to US if the US armed Saddam? As for that, how much has the US given Iran since 1978 except for the Iran-Contra fiasaco?

A basic start to US arms sales to iraq can be found at [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

781 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:44:40pm

re: #777 drcordell

Is it not common knowledge now that the Soviet Union was completely dysfunctional and well on its way to collapse throughout the 80's.

That wasn't common knowledge until after the Soviet Union collapsed.

782 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:44:41pm

re: #735 drcordell

It is not a distortion to say that the groups we funded in the 80's have direct ties to the modern Islamic Jihadists that we are fighting today. They are not exactly the same groups. They are not exactly the same leaders. But when we selectively funded the most radical Islamist groups to fight the Soviets, we funded people who believed in global Islamic Jihad. And that ideology, coupled with the training and weapons we gave them, provided the nexus that spawned the next generation of global Islamic terror groups.

Again, returning to the point we digressed from, the foreign policy strategy of allying yourself with your enemy's enemy is not beneficial in the long term. Funding and arming both Saddam Hussein AND Iran is another example that comes to mind. How'd both of those regimes work out for us?

Had we only had your wisdom to guide us back in the '80's doc.
/ sarcasm as big as China...

783 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:45:02pm

re: #775 shortshrift

Yes, with these climatic and political fears, I would recommend that you vote for Obama. Hoping for change would be comforting psychologically.

Hoping for change is better than guaranteeing a drive towards backwards and insane.

I don't know how to make it more clear that I think Obama is not a good president.

However, you seem to think that somehow the GOP is absolved of its many sins.

784 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:45:42pm

re: #773 Athos

Speaking of revisionism, just how many US sourced jet fighters did Iraq have? How many main battle tanks? How many artillery pieces? Why was the primary infantry armament Russian as opposed to US if the US armed Saddam? As for that, how much has the US given Iran since 1978 except for the Iran-Contra fiasaco?

Right. Except for the Iran-Contra fiasco. I'm not saying we turned them into first world military powers. But we certainly gave each of them several hundred million dollars in both weapons and direct cash funding. You can nitpick and play semantics all you want, but the facts remain the same. We strengthened two regimes that were inherently anti-America, simply because they were the enemies of our enemy. Which is STUPID.

785 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:46:13pm

re: #777 drcordell

Christ. Are we still fighting the Cold War? Is it not common knowledge now that the Soviet Union was completely dysfunctional and well on its way to collapse throughout the 80's. So they take over Afghanistan... and then still collapse several years later having added yet another failed state they have to manage to their failed economy. What the fuck would it have mattered if they took Afghanistan over? I fail to see why the United States had any interest in ensuring the Soviets didn't take over Afghanistan other than the "dominoes" theory. Who. Fucking. Cares.


I've figured out what you're a doctor of. Sophistry.
*spit*

786 tradewind  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:46:55pm

re: #750 Leonidas Hoplite

Would you believe...
...that the song has not changed since I last logged off days ago re the AGW obsession that someone is playing out here at LGF...
///

787 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:48:11pm

re: #770 Dianna

After you. Because, frankly, you fling far more crap than anyone else does.

OK fine.

Dianna, if you have seen the projections, read them and understood them, then you understand that I did not personally make all of them and that thousands of scientists are telling us that this is what is coming. You also know that we are directly observing the early stages of those predictions right now and that the projections are matching observed trends so far.

So upon looking at where that ends up, based on the science, in what way am I overstating?

Make your case.
[Link: www.gfdl.noaa.gov...]

788 snowcrash  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:48:25pm

re: #785 LGoPs
Glad to see you back.

789 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:49:18pm

re: #764 drcordell

We funded and armed both sides. That seems pretty equivalent to just doing nothing, doesn't it? And I hate to break it to you, but Iran now does dominate the region. We crowned them when we overthrew Saddam Hussein and ousted a Sunni dictator who ruled a majority Shia nation whose natural ally in the region is Iran.

No, we supported both sides, unequally, to the extent that they wore each other down. The border remained unchanged and their influence in the Gulf waned. If we had left them alone, Iran would have won and conquered greater control of the Persian Gulf.

Iran does not yet dominate the region today, although Obama does seem intent on making that a reality. Meanwhile, it seems Iraqi democracy is having a far greater damaging effect on the Iranian theocracy than the reverse. Sistani is now the preeminent Shia cleric in the world, even among Iranians. The Iranian regime is collapsing as Sistani's quietist school is gaining on the Khomeneists.

You haven't put forward an alternative strategy the US should have perused in the region. But you have argued the US was wrong in all it did. So let's look at the region, as you seem to think it should have been: The USSR still intact & in control of Afghanistan, & the Iranians in control of the Persian Gulf since the late 1980's... oh, yeah, that would have been way better!

790 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:49:23pm
791 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:49:34pm

re: #782 LGoPs

Had we only had your wisdom to guide us back in the '80's doc.
/ sarcasm as big as China...

Hindsight is obviously 20/20. But clearly judging from the reaction I'm getting here it isn't. All I was trying to point out was that historically the policy of "my enemy's enemy is my friend" is a stupid one. And then 500 douchebags come out of the woodwork to nitpick everything I say. "We didn't really fund Iran except for Iran contra." Bravo.

All I'm trying to say is that in hindsight maybe we shouldn't have funded avowed Islamic extremists just to spite the Soviets. Judging from the responses here, it seems we are doomed to repeat this history many times over.

I'm out. See you all at the bar.

792 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:49:49pm

re: #788 snowcrash

Glad to see you back.

Thanks snowcrash.
:)

793 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:50:11pm

I figured that "Dr. Cordell" was in reference to the character in Hannibal...

Perhaps the good Dr. could illuminate?

794 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:50:22pm

re: #767 drcordell

And how exactly would have staying out of the clusterfuck and not arming two despotic regimes hurt us?

By letting Iran conquer the Persian Gulf and dominate the region. That would have been catastrophic.

795 Dreader1962  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:50:23pm

re: #740 LudwigVanQuixote

My claim about my expertise, is that I work in Chaos...

Are you sure we don't work for the same company?

796 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:51:28pm

re: #763 sattv4u2

A) let parents AND THEIR TAX DOLLARS (property tax that is earmarked for public ed) opt out of the public system. This will do several things.
1) it will foster greater need for private schools
2) it will force those schools to now compete for your education doallrs, much like Lowes competes against Home Depot for your home improvement needs
3) it cuts down on class sizes in the PUBLIC schools, thereby helping them out
4) it incentivises parents of children in private schools to ensure their children are working for that the parents are paying for

As soon as I hit reply, I'll think of at least 5 others

I feel like we're having a miscommunication here. So ill try to lay out a scenario for you, and you explain to me how this situation plays out.

Picture a small town with around 500 school aged children. Town has two schools, one public, one private. 400 children attend the private school, costing each parent $8000 a year (my former highschool tuition). These parents, saving $8000 a year in property taxes can afford it. Assuming the best case for public, that the cost remains the same as private, $8000/year per child. If the parents cant afford private, because their saved tax is less than $8000/year, how do you insure those children at the public school receive an education, without using the other residents tax dollars. We've just established that the lower 1/5 of families cant afford the $8000, you've pointed out many times that government programs cost more than public, so what's the solution other than dipping into public funds?

797 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:51:39pm

re: #778 Kosh's Shadow

And the vouchers would come out of,,,
the public ed portion of your property taxes. So why not just eliminate the middle man. A line item on your state tax return to show (with attached proof) that in the last year your child attended a private school.

Now, does that help the special needs chidren that cannot attend private schools? Actually, it just may! Take a bunch of kids out of your public school, and now there is more room and resources for those children! More non-teaching staff would be available. More para-pros would be freeed up because instead of a class size of 30 that needs 1 teacher and 1 parapro you may get it down to 20 needing just the teacher!

798 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:51:42pm

re: #789 Kenneth

No, we supported both sides, unequally, to the extent that they wore each other down. The border remained unchanged and their influence in the Gulf waned. If we had left them alone, Iran would have won and conquered greater control of the Persian Gulf.

Iran does not yet dominate the region today, although Obama does seem intent on making that a reality. Meanwhile, it seems Iraqi democracy is having a far greater damaging effect on the Iranian theocracy than the reverse. Sistani is now the preeminent Shia cleric in the world, even among Iranians. The Iranian regime is collapsing as Sistani's quietist school is gaining on the Khomeneists.

You haven't put forward an alternative strategy the US should have perused in the region. But you have argued the US was wrong in all it did. So let's look at the region, as you seem to think it should have been: The USSR still intact & in control of Afghanistan, & the Iranians in control of the Persian Gulf since the late 1980's... oh, yeah, that would have been way better!

No Kenneth. EPIC FAIL. The Soviet Union would have collapsed without our intervention in Afghanistan. And the Iranians happen to be in control of the Persian Gulf right this very moment. If you hadn't noticed.

799 drcordell  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:52:16pm

re: #793 Pianobuff

I figured that "Dr. Cordell" was in reference to the character in Hannibal...

Perhaps the good Dr. could illuminate?

YES! Bing Bing Bing! You are honestly the first person who has EVER made that connection. Bravo sir! Bravo!

800 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:52:17pm

re: #790 taxfreekiller

Ice Age First.

IAF.

We just had one, that's why it seems like things are getting warmer.

801 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:52:47pm

re: #777 drcordell

The Afghan War bled the Russians dry. It was a significant contributing cause in their collapse.

802 [deleted]  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:53:48pm
803 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:54:11pm

re: #798 drcordell

No Kenneth. EPIC FAIL. The Soviet Union would have collapsed without our intervention in Afghanistan. And the Iranians happen to be in control of the Persian Gulf right this very moment. If you hadn't noticed.

No one except you seems to have had that particular bit of 20/20 hindsight at the time.

804 Athos  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:54:28pm

re: #780 McSpiff

I found this intersting about the foreign materials and 'bear spares' -

Little today is known about this program as details remain scarce.


But apprently, it's enought to support an argument that the US armed Saddam...

I will not deny that we provided economic support or the use of military intel to Iraq - - Iraq was the lessor of 2 evils in the realpolitik of the time. However, there were other nations that funded far more of Iraq's (and Iran's ) military (Russia, China, Czechoslovakia, Egypt) than the US but that doesn't fit the meme. That is why its called realpolitik and needs to be examined on the basis of the info of the time.

It's like calling our alliance with France in 1777-1783 a failure because we fought a quasi war less than 20 years later with France.

805 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:54:35pm

re: #799 drcordell

YES! Bing Bing Bing! You are honestly the first person who has EVER made that connection. Bravo sir! Bravo!

Hey, Cordell! Why don't you push him in? You can always say it was me.

806 shortshrift  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:56:36pm

re: #783 LudwigVanQuixote

Hoping for change is better than guaranteeing a drive towards backwards and insane.

I don't know how to make it more clear that I think Obama is not a good president.

However, you seem to think that somehow the GOP is absolved of its many sins.

No need for further clarification on the voting issue. Obama not good. GOP very bad. Obama better than GOP. Must vote for better over bad.

Urgent need for clarification on the "absolving the GOP" issue.

807 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:56:56pm

re: #791 drcordell

Hindsight is obviously 20/20. But clearly judging from the reaction I'm getting here it isn't. All I was trying to point out was that historically the policy of "my enemy's enemy is my friend" is a stupid one. And then 500 douchebags come out of the woodwork to nitpick everything I say. "We didn't really fund Iran except for Iran contra." Bravo.

All I'm trying to say is that in hindsight maybe we shouldn't have funded avowed Islamic extremists just to spite the Soviets. Judging from the responses here, it seems we are doomed to repeat this history many times over.

I'm out. See you all at the bar.

I think what rings false is your claims of foresight, not hindsight. You claim that the Soviet Union was known to be collapsing hence we shouldn't have funded their opponents in Afghanistan.
I think that better minds than yours would have disagreed with that assessment back in the '80's. The CIA may not have been prescient in theri predictions but I would submit that much of that shortfall was due to their neutering starting with the Church committee in the 70's. That committee being peopled by folk of your mindset no doubt.

808 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:57:28pm

re: #798 drcordell

No Kenneth. EPIC FAIL. The Soviet Union would have collapsed without our intervention in Afghanistan. And the Iranians happen to be in control of the Persian Gulf right this very moment. If you hadn't noticed.

You truly are an idiot. The notion that the Iranians are "in control of the Persian Gulf right this very minute" will come as a dreadful shock to the US Central Command which has a huge naval base in the Persian Gulf.

809 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:57:53pm

re: #804 Athos


O agreed, just in the entire discussion of that era's realpolitik here seemed to be a lot of he-said/she-said so I was hoping to bring it back to facts as much as possible. As you say, Iraq received less support from the US as compared to the eastern bloc. I would fully agree with this.

810 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:58:24pm

re: #787 LudwigVanQuixote

Let us begin with their own words:

However there were still a number of aspects that clearly needed to be improved. Many of these aspects relate to the simulation of clouds and of moist convection. In addition, there was no serious attempt to simulate the stratosphere in AM2, and there was no aerosol or gas phase chemistry incorporated into the model.

That's from the introduction to the atmospheric model. atmospheric model intro.

811 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 2:59:03pm

re: #787 LudwigVanQuixote

Excuse me for a bit.

812 LGoPs  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:00:31pm

re: #798 drcordell

No Kenneth. EPIC FAIL. The Soviet Union would have collapsed without our intervention in Afghanistan. And the Iranians happen to be in control of the Persian Gulf right this very moment. If you hadn't noticed.

And Hitler would have eventually died of old age if we hadn't invaded Normandy...
/ Sheesh.

813 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:02:23pm

re: #796 McSpiff

By taking a (voluntary) number of children out of the public schools it allows more spending PER STUDENT in that school. How, you may ask if the tax dollars follow the child to the private school? Most of the monies for ed. come from the feds, not the property tax, so the money "lost" would be insignificant in that only the property tax wouldn't stay with the public school

Now,,, what about the parents even with the 8 K tax break can't afford private? Same as what you would do at college time! Loans, grants, academic and athletic scholarships

814 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:03:22pm

re: #797 sattv4u2

And the vouchers would come out of,,,
the public ed portion of your property taxes. So why not just eliminate the middle man. A line item on your state tax return to show (with attached proof) that in the last year your child attended a private school.

Now, does that help the special needs chidren that cannot attend private schools? Actually, it just may! Take a bunch of kids out of your public school, and now there is more room and resources for those children! More non-teaching staff would be available. More para-pros would be freeed up because instead of a class size of 30 that needs 1 teacher and 1 parapro you may get it down to 20 needing just the teacher!

Here's the problem. It is not just families with children in school who pay property tax. I don't get a break just because my daughter is long gone.
We decided years ago that subsidizing public schools in this way is OK. If not, then you end up with different rates for "property" tax, and it is no longer "property" tax - a big family owes more than one with a big house.
We can debate this, but I actually have to leave.
(And I think you know I'll stay in a debate if it is polite; I don't generally just drop out. We can continue this the next time we're both logged in.)

815 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:05:25pm

re: #813 sattv4u2

By taking a (voluntary) number of children out of the public schools it allows more spending PER STUDENT in that school. How, you may ask if the tax dollars follow the child to the private school? Most of the monies for ed. come from the feds, not the property tax, so the money "lost" would be insignificant in that only the property tax wouldn't stay with the public school

Now,,, what about the parents even with the 8 K tax break can't afford private? Same as what you would do at college time! Loans, grants, academic and athletic scholarships

So you're ok with your federal tax money paying for others kids? Just not your property? That makes much more sense to be honest

816 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:06:46pm

re: #810 Dianna

Let us begin with their own words:

That's from the introduction to the atmospheric model. atmospheric model intro.

By all means - so what are the potential impacts of those improvements? Do you think that better resolution of those things will make the evidence for AGW go away? DO you think that there is great uncertainty as it is with the models?

Did you notice the graphs of the models following the data on that page?

The fact is that to better forecast how bad, bad will be, we will need to better model those issues. As a reult, we have a range of bad.

There is the "nice" end which only has a drastic loss of food supply and flooding of most major coastal cities in the world.

Then at the other end of the spectrum we have a total loss of the poles quite in 100-150 years and the desertification of much of America's bread basket.

Now I personally think that if we do nothing it will be somewhere in the middle in the next 100-150 years.

Given that the nice end really would mean the collapse of our economy and leave millions hungry and without their homes or property as it is, the mid range of bad - is frankly wrath of G-d.

817 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:07:45pm

re: #814 Kosh's Shadow

I look forward to it

818 harpsicon  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:10:34pm

Ludwig, you still here?

What did you think about Lomborg's suggestions in the WSJ to use technology to fight AGW instead of cap-and-trade?

819 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:11:06pm

re: #815 McSpiff

So you're ok with your federal tax money paying for others kids? Just not your property? That makes much more sense to be honest

Most of my property tax moneis are earmarked for the public schools, most of my FED tax is not! Whats wrong with taking that earmarked money and letting me use it to offset some of my sons private ed? It won't impact my public services (fire/ police/ roads). And as I stated, there will actually be more PER STUDENT money available in the publics because you are cutting down the number of students

820 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:12:21pm

re: #816 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, I did.

The graph is alarming, but the problem is the model. It is - by what the authors themselves are saying - inadequate.

A model is, by its very nature, simplified. This model - every model linked in those pages, too - mentions the number of things the model does inadequately, or doesn't take into account.

How on earth is one to take that as more than tentative?

821 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:16:40pm

OT ,, I have no link for this yet, but at work I'm taking a couple of news feeds in from Jeruselem that are stating that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to meet at the end of September at the United Nations.

822 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:17:18pm

re: #821 sattv4u2

OT ,, I have no link for this yet, but at work I'm taking a couple of news feeds in from Jeruselem that are stating that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to meet at the end of September at the United Nations.

FOX just put up a link
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

823 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:17:31pm

re: #816 LudwigVanQuixote

I was trying to answer the part I viewed as actually answerable first, but I wanted to address these paras with a question of my own:

Then at the other end of the spectrum we have a total loss of the poles quite in 100-150 years and the desertification of much of America's bread basket.

Now I personally think that if we do nothing it will be somewhere in the middle in the next 100-150 years.

That always strikes me as contradictory. Were the poles to melt, surely we are talking more free moisture, not less; so, why desertification of the bread basket? That simply does not make sense.

Why not the restoration of inland seas? Or extreme growth of wetlands?

824 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:18:36pm

re: #658 LudwigVanQuixote

Pope Urban II made it pretty clear that he could not stand the idea of infidels holding the holy land.

Here is his speech if you are interested.

[Link: www.fordham.edu...]

There was also the issue of second sons wanting kingdoms of their own...

I saw him give that speech last week on TV. Nasty little man. LOL.
///

825 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:19:12pm

re: #819 sattv4u2

Most of my property tax moneis are earmarked for the public schools, most of my FED tax is not! Whats wrong with taking that earmarked money and letting me use it to offset some of my sons private ed? It won't impact my public services (fire/ police/ roads). And as I stated, there will actually be more PER STUDENT money available in the publics because you are cutting down the number of students

Because the cost per student goes up in the worst case. So no, with less money and increased cost per student you actually have a worse deal. Unless you're assuming only a small % of students go to private.

826 Dianna  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:20:46pm

Off home. Take care!

827 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:21:08pm

re: #658 LudwigVanQuixote

Pope Urban II made it pretty clear that he could not stand the idea of infidels holding the holy land.

Here is his speech if you are interested.

[Link: www.fordham.edu...]

There was also the issue of second sons wanting kingdoms of their own...

This is brilliant Ludwig. You sound no better than the fools who are always telling us how the JOOS are trying to take over the world.

You are in the same league with them, you certainly are.

828 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:26:16pm

re: #823 Dianna

Why not the restoration of inland seas?

Yes but this is not a good thing for us, like around Chicago...

Or extreme growth of wetlands?

Like the melting of Siberia and Canada turning them into bogs and hastening the process badly with a giant feedback that would double the amount of CO2 in the air - not to mention a giant methane feedback.

There is a notion that somehow GW will be all right and that there will be GW winners and that hey, we might be one. The fact is that the US, Europe and most of the first world loses badly. Also what you cal a winner is very subjective. Yes, places like the sahara might temporarily be able to get more rainfall, but it will never turn into a place like Kansas for growing food.

Kansas on the other hand gets a dustbowl.

829 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:26:36pm

re: #825 McSpiff

Because the cost per student goes up in the worst case. So no, with less money and increased cost per student you actually have a worse deal. Unless you're assuming only a small % of students go to private.

The cost per student would NOT go up, actually. Less students = less supplies/ teachers/ support staff etc = less cost per student. And again, in that most of the money comes from the fed the property tax money lost would be insignificant in that that money wouldn't be needed for the student that went private, but the fed money would remain virtually the same

830 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:29:19pm

re: #827 Walter L. Newton

This is brilliant Ludwig. You sound no better than the fools who are always telling us how the JOOS are trying to take over the world.

You are in the same league with them, you certainly are.

Asshole, I have lost my patience with you.

I am a Jew. Don't you dare go there.

As to trying to revise history such that Urban II was not calling for a religious war - that was started by Europe, you are insane. Read the Pope's own words.

I know that you are pissed off at me for pointing out your stupid posts on AGW, but this goes way too far.

Go and learn some history and mind your manners. And if you want to whine that I called you an asshole for that post, go right ahead. If you had said such a thing to me in person, you would find that I really do hold a black belt.

831 Pianobuff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:32:52pm

re: #830 LudwigVanQuixote

Asshole, I have lost my patience with you.

I am a Jew. Don't you dare go there.

As to trying to revise history such that Urban II was not calling for a religious war - that was started by Europe, you are insane. Read the Pope's own words.

I know that you are pissed off at me for pointing out your stupid posts on AGW, but this goes way too far.

Go and learn some history and mind your manners. And if you want to whine that I called you an asshole for that post, go right ahead. If you had said such a thing to me in person, you would find that I really do hold a black belt.

No need to threaten violence... let's all chill a little now.

832 yochanan  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:33:15pm

re: #828 LudwigVanQuixote

frankly chicago is 800 or so feet above sea level and the great lakes will not get any higher as the water runs off through the st laurance river

duh.

833 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:33:17pm

re: #829 sattv4u2

The cost per student would NOT go up, actually. Less students = less supplies/ teachers/ support staff etc = less cost per student. And again, in that most of the money comes from the fed the property tax money lost would be insignificant in that that money wouldn't be needed for the student that went private, but the fed money would remain virtually the same


No. Rather than waste my time explaining basic economics to you, ill simply point you in the direction of cost curves (hint: they aren't linear) and economies of scale. To explain slightly further: The idea that 30 students (the size of some rural grades) require 1 teacher does not mean that 15 students require 0.5 of a teacher. At a certain point, assuming your program is successful whatever children remain at a public school will not be covered by their parents tax's alone and you will indeed be paying for their education, along with me, like it or not. Or you can simply get rid of the right to education which I highly suspect is your end goal regardless.

834 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:37:43pm

re: #832 yochanan

frankly chicago is 800 or so feet above sea level and the great lakes will not get any higher as the water runs off through the st laurance river

duh.

If what you were saying is true, than the great lakes would have all just dried up and ran out to see... And yet they are there, and Chicago is on the lake... How is that possible?

Duh?

835 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:38:51pm

re: #834 LudwigVanQuixote

If what you were saying is true, than the great lakes would have all just dried up and ran out to see... And yet they are there, and Chicago is on the lake... How is that possible?

Duh?

Just to clarify, the lakes do not all just run off. There is sufficient back up that they are indeed there... So adding more water, would not all just make it go away.

836 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:41:16pm

re: #833 McSpiff

explaining basic economics to you, ill simply point you in the direction of cost curves

No need. I have a minor in economics. You are correct, it's not linear but the "cost curve" is dictated by the inherent costs of doing business, at it were , not what is expended per final product. You have it backwards. You 1st establish what it costs (physical plant, supplies, staffing) for the needs (number of students) then budget for that, NOT the other way around ("we have $XX.XX per student, lets go spend it")

you can simply get rid of the right to education which I highly suspect is your end goal regardless

You couldn't be more wrong. Please show me where I ever advocated either doing away with public education in general or the "right" to an education (and btw,, where is that "right" enumerated"?)

837 yochanan  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:42:03pm

re: #834 LudwigVanQuixote

the level is kept stable because of the hight of the st laurence river bed. water above that runs off below that doesn't sort of like a natural damn. Currently the nagra falls are moveing slowly towards the great lakes

DUH DUH

838 Bill Dalasio  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:46:50pm

Charles,

No offense, but there really isn't anything in the linked article that genuinely makes the case that an audit of the Fed would, per se, lead to the effects it disscusses. The consequences it cites are of a politicization of the money supply. One does not necessarily lead to the other. Paul's entire line of complaint has been that the money supply is open to the sort of expansion-bias the article implies.

That said, I am still sceptical of the entire proposal. I've worked for one of the Fed Banks and the most you're going to find is that the employees don't work quite as hard as maybe would be optimal. That said, I'd probably stack them up against any other civilian portion of the federal government. As you suggest, the potential for a fishing expedition is tremendous.

Honestly, I don't think what we're seeing here is a "surrender" by Frank and the Democrats. It's more a condition that, in addition to being a loon, Paul is an idiot. We're seeing the Fed being subtly sifted in bias from inflation fighting and economic stability to just the sort of runaway monetary expansion that Ron Paul and company have made their central crusade. To see this, one only need peruse the Fed balance sheet over the last two years. While Bernanke says he'll reverse it when necessary, it already looks like it would take a chariman of unparallelled skill and finesse to accomplish this. Moreover, Bernanke's relationship wiht the administration has been unusually close, relative to that of other Fed chairman. Add to that, the fact that the recently appointed President of the crucial NY Fed's major career experience is as a labor leader, and you sense a subtle shift in the character of the Fed to a more expansionary position.

Really though, this suits the needs of the incumbent Democratic party. Desptite its long-term dangers, artificially induced growth is both popular and empowering to its sponsors. That is to say, Mr. Frank's political agenda would be much more significantly enhanced than Mr. Paul's by an expansionary bias. I suspect Mr. Fank is inclined to believe that the political outcome of an audit would entail more government control. That Ron Paul is willing to deliver it to him on a silver platter is, from his perspective, a good thing.

839 yochanan  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:49:30pm

[Link: www.great-lakes.net...]

there are currently 3 exit points, the main one being the st laurance river, also a smaller one at chicago and one from lake nepersink off of lake s. in canada.

the excess water would run off. and a major increase of water flow would speeden the movement of the nagra falls towards lake ontario.

840 McSpiff  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:53:10pm

re: #836 sattv4u2

In terms of rights: most states have laws dictating that a child must receive a certain level of education (for example up until the age of 16 or until graduating whichever comes first). So a child has a right to an education regardless of parents will. The word 'right' amazingly enough has a definition beyond the Constitution.

Here's the basic situation I want you to explain to me. What happens when the property taxes collected from parents who send their children to a school are lower than all costs associated. If its simply "The Fed will pay" then I ask you, what difference does it make that one of your taxes is used to pay, rather than the other. You're still paying, either way.

841 yochanan  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 3:53:12pm

re: #835 LudwigVanQuixote

you are wrong on this point;

842 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:01:48pm

re: #840 McSpiff

In terms of rights: most states have laws dictating that a child must receive a certain level of education

A law that dictates that a child MUST attend school,up to a certain age does not make it qa "right"! There is a law that states I MUST have ca5r insurance to drive the streets. Tha doesn't mean I have the 'right" to car ins. I can be denied by all insurance vendors

What happens when the property taxes collected from parents who send their children to a school are lower than all costs associated. If its simply "The Fed will pay"

Sorry , you lost me on that one. Your wording is somewhat clumsy, imho! Do you mean,,
If I pay lets say $5,000 in property taxes, and the cost of my private ed is more than that, who pays the diff? If so, I answered that upthread. Same as when you get to college age. Grants, student loans, academic and athletic scholarshps (all which currently happen at private schools, btw)

843 sattv4u2  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 4:07:07pm

re: #840 McSpiff

In terms of rights: most states have laws dictating that a child must receive a certain level of education

Incorrect, btw. The law(s) only mandate that a child must attend school to a certain AGE, not a certain level of education

844 Phanatic  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 6:16:13pm

re: #615 3 wood

The very fact that monetary policy works holds the answer for you:

What value of "works" are you using? Interest rates held artificially low created the dot-com boom. When that bubble burst, interest rates held artificially low created the housing bubble. Now that the housing bubble burst, they're holding interest rates low. Now we're building another stock market bubble. Has it escaped your notice that the P/E ratio of the S&P 500 is now *60 times higher* than the worst it got during the Great Depression?

([Link: www.mybudget360.com...]

It couldn't have escaped your notice that the dollar has been inflated so much since the Fed came into existence that it's now worth 5% of what it was in 1914. Right?

So what definition of "works" do you use? What do you think the Fed is doing now, or has done in the past, oh, 50 years, that was *good monetary policy*? I can think of a single thing: Volker's biting the bullet and raising interest rates to mark the period at the end of the dreary dismal sentence that was the Carter administration. And today, he says he wouldn't do that again.

This is *insane*. The Fed is *not* engaged in sound monetary policy. It is engaged in transferring the middle class's money to Wall Street and in getting politicians relelected.


You can directly nfluence the market rates via monetary policy 3 ways:

1. By expanding/contracting the money supply through open market operations with lowers/raises interst rates respectively.

2. Raising or lowering the discount rate. This is a building block for market rates . Other components include risk and duration.

3. changing reserve requirements to tie up or free up reserves for lending purposes.

The Fed and indirectly influence them by buying or selling Treasuries, i.e., monetizing the debt.

Yes, and like I pointed out in another link, what they're currently doing is an end-run around the prohibition against them simply buying US government debt up directly, by letting foreign central banks exchange their agency debt for US Treasuries. Why, for the merest second, would you consider that wise? Why do you think a practice that is essentially the Treasury printing money out of thin air will work out any better for us than it did for Zimbabwe?

That's the *point* of the Fed. The government couldn't continue to buy all the votes it does if it had to limit its spending to what it actually took in in revenues. The Fed exists to let the government engage in hidden deficit spending by means of devaluing the currency. It makes everyone poorer, except for the recipients of government largesse.


Letting Congress take over the Fed is literally like letting the fox take over the hen house.

The fox and the hens are already *living together in sin*. The Fed is, has, and will continue to do what the political powers *want* it to do, so these appeals to "But our independence!" are *risible*. These transactions the Fed's engaged in with foreign central banks aren't even subject to GOA audit. Why in the two-horned tapdancing Christ do you consider any of this a *good thing*?

845 Charles Johnson  Mon, Aug 31, 2009 8:45:57pm

I'm beginning to reach the limit of how much Paulian propaganda I'll put up with.

846 Bill Dalasio  Tue, Sep 1, 2009 3:24:54am

re: #844 Phanatic

With all due respect, to the extent you favor monetary restraint, your suggested means only undermine that end. The political consensus was broadly opposed to Volker's reigning in of inflation. The real option is not between the Fed and some hypothetical, pie-in-the-sky commodity standard that somehow grows just enough to meet demand growth, but between the Fed and direct political control.

847 Kenneth  Tue, Sep 1, 2009 6:14:09am

re: #812 LGoPs

And Hitler would have eventually died of old age if we hadn't invaded Normandy...
/ Sheesh.

The drcordell worldview: Everything good that happened would have happened anyway without America's efforts, and anything bad that happened is entirely America's fault.

848 hm  Tue, Sep 1, 2009 8:40:33am

I haven't posted here for a very long while, but I feel I need to take issue with Charles' recent push to the left (most of which I have agreed with over the past 10 months -- but not this time).

The Federal Reserve is a federal institution. It is a federal government body. Thus, all US tax payers fund this body. It MUST be susceptible to an audit. End of story.

849 wrenchwench  Tue, Sep 1, 2009 9:12:56am

re: #848 hm

I haven't posted here for a very long while, but I feel I need to take issue with Charles' recent push to the left (most of which I have agreed with over the past 10 months -- but not this time).

The Federal Reserve is a federal institution. It is a federal government body. Thus, all US tax payers fund this body. It MUST be susceptible to an audit. End of story.

The Fed does get audited. It is not a "left" position to oppose a Congressional takeover of those auditing duties.

850 hm  Tue, Sep 1, 2009 9:31:55am

re: #849 wrenchwench

Well, either you've got representative democracy -- a model which is only subscribed to by the United States these days -- or you have a pick and choose type of approach, depending on the issue at hand -- as is practiced is most of the other democracies.

And I firmly subscribe to representative democracy with all its yields and ills.

If you disagree, you will surely also disagree about the concept of judicial nominees being endorsed by Congress -- after all, the Judiciary is a different branch of government and again, the US is the only democracy in the world to mandate endorsement, in order to provide a check on executive power. And the same can be said for the Federal Reserve.

851 Bill Dalasio  Tue, Sep 1, 2009 10:37:32am

re: #848 hm

The Federal Reserve is a federal institution. It is a federal government body. Thus, all US tax payers fund this body. It MUST be susceptible to an audit. End of story.

In which case, only the Board of Governors would be open to audit. That would show remarkably little of any consequence. The individual reserve banks are not federal institutions, but technically private banks owned by the member institutions.

852 mt3_1234  Tue, Sep 1, 2009 11:04:52am

re: #371 wrenchwench

Hi, hatchling.

Nice first post.

/

not a fair analogue?
the idea of fishing seemed stronger in the wmd case (and especially in cheney's basis for torture, where the info extracted is used to justify the technique used to extract that info in the first place)

853 mashiki  Tue, Sep 1, 2009 11:42:23am

Well if you nuke the Federal Reserve, just let me know how well you'll like currency collapse. I suppose if that happens we'll see a new USD in a few years. Actually now that I think about it maybe this is just something that he wants to happen.

Follow this winding line of thought for half a moment. First the US has a true unemployment rate of around 16-20%(U6). It's starting to slide into a deflationary cycle(not good), secondary goods are going down in cost, but primary goods are going up(food/fuel/rent). Along with currency devaluation. With dollar pegging to Canada, and people buying up other currencies to offset. You're looking at a few interesting things, first you can pump out a lot of currency to offset 'costs' incurred by the government(happening). This allows a primary inflation cycle(perhaps hyper-inflation cycle), once the people are on the verge you can collapse your primary currency by removing the primary source(Federal Reserve), and allow an economic free-fall and market-stabilization. Once that occurs you can then reintroduce a new currency, and create a new central bank. Bringing interest rates & inflation back under control.

I'm sure not an economist, but that has happened before. It's a hell of a method for shedding debt. But it's sure not popular.


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