US Baptists Accused of Child Trafficking in Haiti

World • Views: 3,550

Ten American Baptists are in jail in Haiti for attempting to smuggle 33 “orphans” out of the country — and many of the children aren’t even orphans at all: Road From Haiti Was Paved With Good Intentions, American Baptists Say.

And one of the pastors involved has denounced “the accusations of Satan.”

Ten American Baptists sit in a Haitian jail on Monday, accused of child trafficking for what they say was a hastily conceived attempt to rescue orphans by quickly removing them from Haiti — before getting official permission or even checking to determine that the children really were orphans. In Haiti and on the Web, the arrests have led to fresh accusations that some religious groups may be guilty of a kind of spiritual trafficking, by mixing the help they offer to victims of last month’s earthquake with proselytizing.

The Baptists were open about the fact that they felt driven by their Christian faith. Speaking to reporters after the group’s arrest, Laura Silsby, who led the Baptist team to Haiti, described the children as “deeply in need most of all of God’s love and his compassion.” In a description of the mission posted online, the group wrote, “God has laid upon our hearts the need to go now.”

Meanwhile in Idaho, where several of the Baptists are from, Rev. Clint Henry, a pastor involved in the effort, denounced what he called “the accusations of Satan,” made against “our team,” The Associated Press reported.

A representative of an Austrian charity that is now looking after the 33 children the Baptist team tried to remove from the country told CNN that an initial investigation showed that at least 10 of them are not orphans.

More details from CBS News:

“In this chaos the government is in right now, we were just trying to do the right thing,” Silsby, told the AP at Haiti’s judicial police headquarters, where she and others were taken after their arrest Friday night trying to cross the border into the Dominican Republic in a bus.

Silsby, 40, admitted she had not obtained the proper Haitian documents for the children, whose names were written on pink tape on their shirts.

The children, ages 2 months to 12 years old, were taken to an orphanage run by Austrian-based SOS Children’s Villages, where spokesman George Willeit said they arrived “very hungry, very thirsty.”

A 2- to 3-month old baby was dehydrated and had to be hospitalized, he said. An orphanage worker held and caressed another, older baby, who was feverish and looked disoriented.

“One (8-year-old) girl was crying, and saying, ‘I am not an orphan. I still have my parents.’ And she thought she was going on a summer camp or a boarding school or something like that,” Willet said. …

In Idaho, the Rev. Clint Henry denied that his Central Valley Baptist Church had anything to do with child trafficking and said he didn’t believe such reports. He urged his tearful congregation to pray to God to “help them as they seek to resist the accusations of Satan and the lies that he would want them to believe and the fears that he would want to plant into their heart.”

Jump to bottom

585 comments
1 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:21:03pm

Those bastards!

Better these children should starve and die in Haiti, than folk with heterodox world views be allowed to save their lives.

2 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:21:08pm

Now maybe the Vatican can take a break for a day or two…

3 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:23:48pm

Whaddaya think it was?

Molestation?

Child labor?

Or some kooky folk who thought they were doing good?

My money’s on the third.

4 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:23:53pm

“trying to do the right thing”….yikes!

5 Mojave  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:24:25pm

They’re at it again….

NEW BOWGATE!!!

Check it out at Drudge. Will these nontroversys ever end?

6 Stanley Sea  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:25:31pm

Wonder if the missionaries speak Creole? If they don’t it must be terrifying for the older kids.

7 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:25:53pm

re: #1 Guanxi88

Those bastards!

Better these children should starve and die in Haiti, than folk with heterodox world views be allowed to save their lives.

the US govt should have been ferrying women and children away from there on day one…

8 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:26:36pm

re: #7 albusteve

the US govt should have been ferrying women and children away from there on day one…

Damn skippy we should have.

9 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:26:49pm

re: #1 Guanxi88

Those bastards!

Better these children should starve and die in Haiti, than folk with heterodox world views be allowed to save their lives.

They were taking children away from their parents. You don’t see that as a problem?

10 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:27:16pm

resist the accusations of Satan

WTF? There are people who actually believe Pat Robertson?


Wait…I just said in the last thread I needed to step back and return when there was a more pleasant topic to discuss…this one obviously doesn’t fit that description.

11 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:27:17pm

I don’t believe there was any malice directed at the children.

What is outrageous is that these missionaries didn’t believe the rules applied to them. There behavior is textbook hubris- and they are still claiming they did nothing wrong.

For the record, I support the good work of the many missions who operate and play by the rules and somehow manage not to run afoul of the law or find themselves on the front pages.

But that’s just me.

12 Bob Dillon  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:27:28pm

re: #3 Guanxi88

Whaddaya think it was?
Or some kooky folk who thought they were doing good?

My money’s on the third.

Every religion has it’s extremist nut cakes.
They saw their opportunity and pounced.

13 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:27:42pm

What a helluva mess.

“The instinct to swoop in and rescue children may be a natural impulse, but it cannot be the solution for the tens of thousands of children left vulnerable by the Haiti earthquake,” Deb Barry, a protection expert at Save the Children, told The Associated Press on Sunday. Her group wants a moratorium on new adoptions. “The possibility of a child being scooped up and mistakenly labeled an orphan in the chaotic aftermath of the disaster is incredibly high.”

Still, some parents in Haiti have openly said that they would consider parting with their children if it meant a better life elsewhere. Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, and while the country is in need of help many citizens have mixed feelings toward Christian groups and their activities in Haiti.

“Some parents I know have already given their children to foreigners,” Adonis Helman, 44, told The A.P. “I’ve been thinking how I will choose which one I may give — probably my youngest.”
nytimes.com

14 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:27:58pm

re: #9 Charles

They were taking children away from their parents. You don’t see that as a problem?

it’s kidnapping, plain and simple

15 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:27:59pm

re: #10 darthstar

resist the accusations of Satan

WTF? There are people who actually believe Pat Robertson?

Wait…I just said in the last thread I needed to step back and return when there was a more pleasant topic to discuss…this one obviously doesn’t fit that description.

Oh, stick around.
You know you want to.
:-)

16 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:28:09pm

re: #9 Charles

They were taking children away from their parents. You don’t see that as a problem?

Is it kidnapping, then, what they’re accused of?

TO me, it looks like abuncha well-meaning jackasses trying to save some kids.

They won’t make that mistake again.

17 webevintage  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:28:50pm

And one of the pastors involved has denounced “the accusations of Satan.”

of course he has.
Instead of saying “we fucked up” or “my bad” or “oops” it is so much easier to blame the minions of Satan.

18 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:30:23pm

re: #17 webevintage

And one of the pastors involved has denounced “the accusations of Satan.”

of course he has.
Instead of saying “we fucked up” or “my bad” or “oops” it is so much easier to blame the minions of Satan.

I wish I were in Cook County. I’ d vote for that twice. Or more.

19 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:30:27pm
“One (8-year-old) girl was crying, and saying, ‘I am not an orphan. I still have my parents.’ And she thought she was going on a summer camp or a boarding school or something like that,” Willet said. …

That’s so sad.

20 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:30:56pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

That’s so sad.

It is. Fortunately, she can starve and suffer in Haiti now.

21 Stanley Sea  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:31:25pm

Another question - do they have families all set up to receive the kids and the paperwork for that? Or are they going to be in another orphanage type situ in Idaho?

22 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:31:39pm

re: #16 Guanxi88

Is it kidnapping, then, what they’re accused of?

TO me, it looks like abuncha well-meaning jackasses trying to save some kids.

They won’t make that mistake again.

they should not have made the mistake in the first place…Haiti is a sovereign nation…as for well meaning, if you mean zealous mission work that defies the law, then they need to get a lesson in common sense…fucking whackos, deluded fools

23 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:31:58pm

re: #3 Guanxi88

Whaddaya think it was?

Molestation?

Child labor?

Or some kooky folk who thought they were doing good?

My money’s on the third.

It doesn’t matter what they thought they were doing.
It really doesn’t.

What they were doing amounted to kidnapping these children, citizens of Haiti.

Just terrible, imo.

Good grief, with all the aid organizations out there who know how to do this stuff and do it right … why in the world did they take it upon themselves to go grab a bunch of kids and try to leave?

Were they just completely stupid? You just don’t go grab kids, stick ‘em on a plane and take ‘em somewhere else. You just don’t do that. If they wanted to help - there are plenty of organizations that could have used their help, and could have gotten the help to these kids legally.

24 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:33:06pm

re: #20 Guanxi88

It is. Fortunately, she can starve and suffer in Haiti now.

oh brother…you are playing god yourself with your judgement

25 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:33:28pm

re: #22 albusteve

they should not have made the mistake in the first place…Haiti is a sovereign nation…as for well meaning, if you mean zealous mission work that defies the law, then they need to get a lesson in common sense…fucking whackos, deluded fools

Haiti’s a sovereign nation by courtesy at best.

These idiots thought they were saving these kids from suffering in Haiti. I don’t think it was anything more malevolent than them thinking this was the best way to help these kids out.

26 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:34:36pm

re: #24 albusteve

oh brother…you are playing god yourself with your judgement

Well, maybe not the big guy his own bad self, but one of the minor prophets, perhaps.

27 Claire  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:35:02pm
The parents interviewed at the tent camp said they understood giving their kids up may mean never seeing them again.

“I see all these kids running around and I can’t do anything for them,” said Joseph Emmanuel Amazon, 53, a laborer who struggles to support seven kids. “They would be better off in another country. I’d like one of them to go to the United States.”

The conditions there must be absolutely horrifying for this to be an option. My local paper this morning said some parents were sending their littlest ones off first. I feel really sorry for the parents. It’s almost beyond my comprehension.

28 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:35:44pm

CNN reports that parents and Guardians allowed missionaries to take kids.

29 political lunatic  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:35:46pm

How many of you guys seriously wouldn’t think of trying to get these children out of the country and in to a better home if you were actually in Haiti? I understand the concern of evil people putting them into child trafficking and taking them from families without permission from the family, but it seems like these people, albeit a misguided effort, were trying to do good for these children.

30 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:36:02pm

re: #15 reine.de.tout

Oh, stick around.
You know you want to.
:-)

My wife and I are looking into adoption (both domestic and international) right now. I’m not sure that’s such a good idea.

I will say this. It’s a complex and expensive process. An orphanage that sought to find families for victims of the Hatian earthquake would have no shortage of requests from people willing to pay whatever it cost to get a child, as waiting lists are very long. My fear about the above is that it is, in part, a commercial endeavor (New Life Children’s Refuge, Inc. is a for-profit corporation, licensed in November 2009. Laura Silsby is its founder).

31 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:36:02pm

re: #25 Guanxi88

Haiti’s a sovereign nation by courtesy at best.

These idiots thought they were saving these kids from suffering in Haiti. I don’t think it was anything more malevolent than them thinking this was the best way to help these kids out.

I don’t think they were deliberately malevolent.

But stealing a country’s kids is malevolent nonetheless, even if not intentional.

Here’s what they could have done: Set up a process where their parishioners would take Haitians into their homes, families of those who are ill and needing medical care, or kids, or whatever - then work thru aid organizations to make that happen.

Incredibly stupid and arrogant to just go there and grab the kids with the intention of flying them out of Haiti.

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:36:18pm

re: #3 Guanxi88

Whaddaya think it was?

Molestation?

Child labor?

Or some kooky folk who thought they were doing good?

My money’s on the third.

Probably, but you still can’t just round up a bunch of kids and run for the border, on the theory that they’ll be better off with you.

33 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:36:34pm

re: #28 researchok

CNN reports that parents and Guardians allowed missionaries to take kids.

That’s just a right-wing noise machine version of events. We all know they were kidnapped at gun point by racist theo-cons looking to build an army of mind-numbed creationists, just like their dark lord Beck told them to.

34 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:36:39pm

re: #25 Guanxi88

Haiti’s a sovereign nation by courtesy at best.

These idiots thought they were saving these kids from suffering in Haiti. I don’t think it was anything more malevolent than them thinking this was the best way to help these kids out.

I didn’t say there was…but they are criminal…maybe held under the jackboot of some two bit god nut is your idea of a safe and happy life, I don’t…as for Haiti’s sovereignty, do you believe it comes with an asterix?

35 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:36:40pm

Too bad these people didn’t just take all the money they spent on transportation, etc. from Idaho to Haiti and give it to the Red Cross, or some other charity that knows what it’s doing.

36 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:37:25pm

re: #35 jaunte

Too bad these people didn’t just take all the money they spent on transportation, etc. from Idaho to Haiti and give it to the Red Cross, or some other charity that knows what it’s doing.

Exactly.

37 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:37:25pm

re: #26 Guanxi88

Well, maybe not the big guy his own bad self, but one of the minor prophets, perhaps.

you are simply a misguided mortal

38 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:37:31pm

re: #22 albusteve

they should not have made the mistake in the first place…Haiti is a sovereign nation…as for well meaning, if you mean zealous mission work that defies the law, then they need to get a lesson in common sense…fucking whackos, deluded fools

These folks are wrong, wrong, wrong… but tragically, I’ve met people like this, known people like this, associated with certain religious groups. And I’ll tell you this, they can look you straight in the face and say “We didn’t think we were doing anything wrong.” And guess what, they really mean it. They don’t have the mental intent to do something wrong, they just think they are doing everything right.

I don’t know if the whole of these 10 missionaries fit the description that I laid out, but my only point is, I have seen folks who fit my description, and it’s almost like a mental illness… in the past we may have called it “a simpleton.”

39 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:38:05pm

The US military has the wherewithal to establish some kind of legal system/government functions.

I think that time has arrived.

40 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:38:32pm

re: #29 political lunatic

How many of you guys seriously wouldn’t think of trying to get these children out of the country and in to a better home if you were actually in Haiti? I understand the concern of evil people putting them into child trafficking and taking them from families without permission from the family, but it seems like these people, albeit a misguided effort, were trying to do good for these children.

I think it’s more likely they are doing it for themselves

41 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:38:47pm

re: #30 darthstar

My wife and I are looking into adoption (both domestic and international) right now. I’m not sure that’s such a good idea.

I will say this. It’s a complex and expensive process. An orphanage that sought to find families for victims of the Hatian earthquake would have no shortage of requests from people willing to pay whatever it cost to get a child, as waiting lists are very long. My fear about the above is that it is, in part, a commercial endeavor (New Life Children’s Refuge, Inc. is a for-profit corporation, licensed in November 2009. Laura Silsby is its founder).

good luck with your adoption, if that’s what you decide to do.
I’m sure there are kids all over the world who need a home; if you really want to adopt, you will find a child.

42 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:39:04pm

I think there is an underlying story here…
I could see Baptists flying to Haiti to help the Children there.. Food, Water, Shelter and helping find the parents..
To spirit them away in secrecy makes me think there is money involved on the Back end..There is big money in the Adoption game..
I know

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:39:23pm

re: #16 Guanxi88

Is it kidnapping, then, what they’re accused of?

TO me, it looks like abuncha well-meaning jackasses trying to save some kids.

They won’t make that mistake again.

“Well-meaning” starts to get a little hazy when it involves taking children across international lines without permission.

And I doubt this has put them off in the slightest.

44 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:39:51pm

Over the weekend, I heard different members of this church give very conflicting accounts of what they were doing. I also heard a single spokeswoman for them in Haiti give wildly different explanations at varying times.

They also claimed that they didn’t know you needed identification to cross an international border.

It’s not surprising, unfortunately, to hear that several of the children aren’t actually orphans; as of this morning, one was questionable, but now it seems that more facts have come to light.

And I have an uneasy feeling that we’ve still only chanced upon the tip of the iceberg so far. I’m not at all looking forward to hearing more, but I’m almost certain this tale is only getting started.

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:40:05pm

re: #17 webevintage

And one of the pastors involved has denounced “the accusations of Satan.”

of course he has.
Instead of saying “we fucked up” or “my bad” or “oops” it is so much easier to blame the minions of Satan.

How about “we messed up, but we’d still like to help out in any way the Red Cross needs us to”?

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:40:49pm

re: #20 Guanxi88

It is. Fortunately, she can starve and suffer in Haiti now.

How far does this go? Can I just go to any slum in the world and pick out some kids to take home?

47 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:41:04pm

re: #28 researchok

CNN reports that parents and Guardians allowed missionaries to take kids.

If I had to guess I’d say that there might have been payments made to the parents in exchange for their children. People are poor and desperate.

48 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:41:09pm

re: #9 Charles

They were taking children away from their parents. You don’t see that as a problem?

At the risk of outraging my friend Guanxi, there could well be a pattern here. My brother “Judas,” who is a Baptist deacon and a prominent member of the lunatic MassResistance hate group, thought it was perfectly fine for him to try to adopt my daughter without my consent and on the basis of perjured testimony. This was done after he developed an adulterous relationship with the baby’s mother (who, incidentally, was married to me at the time) and eventually absconded to another state with mother and daughter both.
It took years to straighten this out and get back my parental rights. “Judas” has always fallen back on his faith in justifying this, since it should have been obvious to anyone that he was a better father by virtue of being a Baptist and married, while I was a cynic and (of course) single after my divorce took effect. His church associates naturally do not believe this story, though it is easy enough to confirm.
I also learned to despise various state adoption and child welfare bureaucrats, most of whom seem to derive sadistic pleasure from conniving ways to unjustly separate children from their natural parents.

49 political lunatic  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:41:17pm

re: #35 jaunte

… or creating a law that says all Wall St. bankers are required to donate 90% of all of their undeserved FY’09 bonuses that the American taxpayer helped pay for to the relief effort in Haiti. Too bad Congress doesn’t have the moral strength to make it happen.

50 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:41:30pm

Assuming the missionaries in question had the best of intentions, you just can’t go around taking kids, even with permission. No one or group can be allowed to operate in anarchy, with no supervision.

We have been here before- immigrant kids were taken from their parents and shipped to the midwest as child laborers.

This is way bigger than a few kids in Haiti.

51 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:41:35pm

re: #39 researchok

The US military has the wherewithal to establish some kind of legal system/government functions.

I think that time has arrived.

nooo…not the eeebil capitalist piiigs with their guuuns…imperialism!

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:41:48pm

re: #21 Stanley Sea

Another question - do they have families all set up to receive the kids and the paperwork for that? Or are they going to be in another orphanage type situ in Idaho?

Well, I know that there are American families who were going to adopt Haitian children, and are now trying to get them here.

As for what this group thought was going to happen, not clear to me yet.

53 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:42:12pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

How far does this go? Can I just go to any slum in the world and pick out some kids to take home?

My honest opinion? If the parents tell you to, why not?

If that slum should then fall apart, and the society that created it should be collapsed past the point of quiet starvation, desperation, and slow-motion anarchy that has been haiti’s misfortune lo, these many years, then the case is strengthened.

54 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:42:52pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

How far does this go? Can I just go to any slum in the world and pick out some kids to take home?

Text 69943…keyword “Madonna”

;)

55 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:42:57pm

re: #38 Walter L. Newton

These folks are wrong, wrong, wrong… but tragically, I’ve met people like this, known people like this, associated with certain religious groups. And I’ll tell you this, they can look you straight in the face and say “We didn’t think we were doing anything wrong.” And guess what, they really mean it. They don’t have the mental intent to do something wrong, they just think they are doing everything right.

I don’t know if the whole of these 10 missionaries fit the description that I laid out, but my only point is, I have seen folks who fit my description, and it’s almost like a mental illness… in the past we may have called it “a simpleton.”

the whole thing reeks with self-righteousness

56 Unakite  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:43:37pm

re: #11 researchok

I don’t believe there was any malice directed at the children.

What is outrageous is that these missionaries didn’t believe the rules applied to them. There behavior is textbook hubris- and they are still claiming they did nothing wrong.

For the record, I support the good work of the many missions who operate and play by the rules and somehow manage not to run afoul of the law or find themselves on the front pages.

But that’s just me.

I agree, and I think that’s the whole point. They’re down there and I’m not and I respect them for that. But they can’t break the law (Not a lawyer, but illegally transporting children across international borders seems to fit) using good intentions as an excuse.

57 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:44:03pm

re: #25 Guanxi88

Haiti’s a sovereign nation by courtesy at best.

These idiots thought they were saving these kids from suffering in Haiti. I don’t think it was anything more malevolent than them thinking this was the best way to help these kids out.

Yeah, but they’re still idiots. And no matter how pure their intentions, the idea that you can just pop in from the States and collect some poor children is appalling.

58 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:44:06pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

If I had to guess I’d say that there might have been payments made to the parents in exchange for their children. People are poor and desperate.

buying children for their church?…YOWZA!…what a bunch of kooks

59 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:44:24pm

All I want to say is 24 hour rule.

60 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:44:46pm

re: #55 albusteve

the whole thing reeks with self-righteousness

No, this is a special kinda dumb mixed in with it.

Self-righteousness is when a group of millionaires put together an album and sell it to donate the proceeds.

61 elizajane  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:44:47pm

The US has a rather bad record on this kind of thing: I’ve seen film footage of nice social workers in Viet Nam at the end of the war trying to talk mothers into giving up their children for adoption in the USA. Yes, they were “well intentioned.” There are situations where the best of intentions can be the worst of ideas.

Whenever the USA becomes aware of children suffering somewhere, there’s always some group who wants to swoop in and “rescue” those children by just bringing them here to our U.S. paradise. Family? Culture? Actual birth parents? A minor impediment. This happened a few years ago in Africa, to much publicity. On a smaller scale, it’s happened all over the world—Romania, India, Cambodia, Russia, Viet Nam, all these just in the past decade. Sometimes it’s about profiteering—not for child slavery or anything, but just the adoption industry at its worst. Other times there is genuine concern. But nothing excuses taking children from their families on the grounds that they’d be “better off” with “us.” Way too much like what Australia did to its aborigines, or what the US did to some Native American children.

62 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:44:48pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

If I had to guess I’d say that there might have been payments made to the parents in exchange for their children. People are poor and desperate.

Exactly.

And that’s why these missionaries cannot be allowed to operate in an anarchy environment. Civilized society demands just the opposite.

63 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:44:48pm

re: #48 Shiplord Kirel

Ugh. Not a lot of creatures around these days with less rights than a good Dad. Sorry about that.

64 Opal  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:45:12pm

re: #9 Charles

“They were taking children away from their parents. You don’t see that as a problem?”

AND…the Baptist missionaries were making promises/representations that blur this issue:

cbsnews.com

(snip)

“CBS News correspondent Bill Whitaker reports that a promise of just such a life was allegedly used by the Baptist group in Haiti. Families of five of the children reportedly showed aid workers brochures, allegedly provided by the Baptist group, promising a “better life,” including swimming pools and tennis courts.”

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:45:15pm

re: #28 researchok

CNN reports that parents and Guardians allowed missionaries to take kids.

This specific group? Knowing they planned to leave the country with them? I don’t disbelieve it, under the circumstances, I just wonder how clear they were able to make the situation.

66 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:45:58pm

re: #49 political lunatic

… or creating a law that says all Wall St. bankers are required to donate 90% of all of their undeserved FY’09 bonuses that the American taxpayer helped pay for to the relief effort in Haiti. Too bad Congress doesn’t have the moral strength to make it happen.

I’m glad for that…legislate monetary donations?…isn’t excessive taxation enough for you?….what a crack pot idea, sorry

67 generalsparky  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:46:13pm

re: #56 Unakite

I agree, and I think that’s the whole point. They’re down there and I’m not and I respect them for that. But they can’t break the law (Not a lawyer, but illegally transporting children across international borders seems to fit) using good intentions as an excuse.


I completely agree with you. And if the parents did give permission, the group should have still followed the law.

68 Stanley Sea  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:47:03pm

re: #48 Shiplord Kirel

Holy crap.

69 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:47:20pm

re: #61 elizajane

The problem is not uniquely American. European groups have behaved just as badly and even worse.

The problem is global.

70 freetoken  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:47:33pm

re: #32 SanFranciscoZionist

Probably, but you still can’t just round up a bunch of kids and run for the border, on the theory that they’ll be better off with you.

Another troubling aspect of this is that, apparently, only children are worth saving. The mindset here is more troubling than Guanxi88 will allow.

What this particular group of missionaries have essentially done is already made the situational-ethics tainted decision that the lives (both in both the biological sense and the social sense) of the parents of these children aren’t worth living.

In other words, why didn’t these missionaries “take” the adults, too? Have they already made the decision that the parents are not able to be saved? Why not “adopt” the entire family, and make sure the entire family has enough to eat, a place to sleep, and some sort of constructive social engagement (i.e., work)?

71 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:47:45pm

re: #60 Guanxi88

No, this is a special kinda dumb mixed in with it.

Self-righteousness is when a group of millionaires put together an album and sell it to donate the proceeds.

oh, well thanks for that…now I’m enlightened

72 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:48:01pm

re: #23 reine.de.tout

It doesn’t matter what they thought they were doing.
It really doesn’t.

What they were doing amounted to kidnapping these children, citizens of Haiti.

Just terrible, imo.

Good grief, with all the aid organizations out there who know how to do this stuff and do it right … why in the world did they take it upon themselves to go grab a bunch of kids and try to leave?

Were they just completely stupid? You just don’t go grab kids, stick ‘em on a plane and take ‘em somewhere else. You just don’t do that. If they wanted to help - there are plenty of organizations that could have used their help, and could have gotten the help to these kids legally.

Every guideline for treating children during times of crisis, from the UN to the AMA to scores of other agencies, states clearly that it is in the child’s best interest to keep them in familiar surroundings to the greatest extent possible, near people and places they know. Exceptions are allowed only in cases of disease, imminent danger or to reunite children with relatives who have moved elsewhere.

None of these exceptions applies in this case. The children aren’t sick or malnourished, the facility in Haiti where they were staying, while spartan, is safe, and their families live nearby.

You also don’t pack kids into a van and try to smuggle them across an international border without so much as a scrap of identification. Once across, those children become non-persons, untraceable and unidentifiable.

The protestations of the church members have been inconsistent - to be extremely polite - and strain credulity.

I have a bad feeling we’re going to find out a lot more about this, and it isn’t going to be pleasant.

73 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:48:13pm

re: #71 albusteve

oh, well thanks for that…now I’m enlightened

You say I’ve got delusions of divinity, and yet you’re the Buddha now?

74 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:49:10pm

re: #49 political lunatic

… or creating a law that says all Wall St. bankers are required to donate 90% of all of their undeserved FY’09 bonuses that the American taxpayer helped pay for to the relief effort in Haiti. Too badThank heavens Congress doesn’t have the moral strengthenough Dennis Kucinic’s to make it happen.

political lunacy, indeed. whether and to what degree it is appropriate to tax certain banks and how much aid our government should provide to Haiti are related like Frank Zappa and Amy Grant.

75 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:49:13pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

How far does this go? Can I just go to any slum in the world and pick out some kids to take home?

Well, that’s what many celebrities do these days.

“Those three in the back - wrap ‘em up and ship ‘em to my estate!”

76 Unakite  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:49:17pm

re: #30 darthstar

My wife and I are looking into adoption (both domestic and international) right now. I’m not sure that’s such a good idea.

I will say this. It’s a complex and expensive process. An orphanage that sought to find families for victims of the Hatian earthquake would have no shortage of requests from people willing to pay whatever it cost to get a child, as waiting lists are very long. My fear about the above is that it is, in part, a commercial endeavor (New Life Children’s Refuge, Inc. is a for-profit corporation, licensed in November 2009. Laura Silsby is its founder).

Upding just for looking into adpotion. One of my best friends has adopted two (little boy and girl) and great kids (and great dad).

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:49:48pm

re: #42 HoosierHoops

I think there is an underlying story here…
I could see Baptists flying to Haiti to help the Children there.. Food, Water, Shelter and helping find the parents..
To spirit them away in secrecy makes me think there is money involved on the Back end..There is big money in the Adoption game..
I know

That’s the thing. I know there are tons of church groups on the ground there, working their butts off, and cooperating with the big aid groups. This is not how you do it.

78 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:50:12pm

re: #70 freetoken

Another troubling aspect of this is that, apparently, only children are worth saving. The mindset here is more troubling than Guanxi88 will allow.

What this particular group of missionaries have essentially done is already made the situational-ethics tainted decision that the lives (both in both the biological sense and the social sense) of the parents of these children aren’t worth living.

In other words, why didn’t these missionaries “take” the adults, too? Have they already made the decision that the parents are not able to be saved? Why not “adopt” the entire family, and make sure the entire family has enough to eat, a place to sleep, and some sort of constructive social engagement (i.e., work)?

Kids are cuddly. That’s why they thought to go for them. Adults are complicated, kids are pliable. An adult can tell you “no” and make it stick; a kid, though, is easier to handle.

I’m not saying they did a good thing - they did a bad thing, obviously. With that said, though, I’d like to think that one wouldn’t leap to accusations of kidnapping and such in a state that has completely collapsed, and which, even before collapse, had almost no reliable system of record-keeping.

79 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:50:15pm

re: #73 Guanxi88

You say I’ve got delusions of divinity, and yet you’re the Buddha now?

no, can I be enlightened without the trappings of Buddah?…I can if I say I can

80 Claire  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:50:33pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

How far does this go? Can I just go to any slum in the world and pick out some kids to take home?


Unfortunately, you’d probably find some parents willing to send their kids off with you-except they’d want some money first. I know for a fact it could happen in Guatemala- I have an adopted nephew form there and the absolutely amazing lady who runs the orphanage we went to had some very sad, hair-raising stories. They have to be extremely vigilant about fraud there since the people are so desperate.


I hate to say it, but I wonder if the parents weren’t offered $$ for these kids- sold them basically. It’s not out of the realm of possibility. Horrible all around.

81 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:51:01pm

re: #62 researchok

Exactly.

And that’s why these missionaries cannot be allowed to operate in an anarchy environment. Civilized society demands just the opposite.

If my country collapsed around me..Death and Destruction as far as the eye can see…If I was a starving parent and some rich mothers F*ckers came fly in with Money and a jet.. I may give up to let my children live….The smell of death would be too much…
But true men of God will walk into to Hell and save the Nation where they live..
And save families legally and rebuild Haiti…

82 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:51:24pm

re: #78 Guanxi88

Kids are cuddly. That’s why they thought to go for them. Adults are complicated, kids are pliable. An adult can tell you “no” and make it stick; a kid, though, is easier to handle.

I’m not saying they did a good thing - they did a bad thing, obviously. With that said, though, I’d like to think that one wouldn’t leap to accusations of kidnapping and such in a state that has completely collapsed, and which, even before collapse, had almost no reliable system of record-keeping.

too bad, it’s still kidnapping, isn’t it?

83 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:51:53pm

re: #73 Guanxi88

I’ll agree they were probably working from innocent motives, but the execution was utterly clueless and damaging.

84 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:52:00pm

re: #82 albusteve

too bad, it’s still kidnapping, isn’t it?

If they took them without parental permission, then yes, it’s kidnapping.

85 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:52:05pm

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

This specific group? Knowing they planned to leave the country with them? I don’t disbelieve it, under the circumstances, I just wonder how clear they were able to make the situation.

Again, that is teh problem. The parents guardians made the decison based on their situation and what they were told.

There is a reason foreign adoptions are so difficult. Everything has to be on the up and up. We have to make sure the parents (if there are any) aren’t making a decision out of desperation, etc.

If I were a parent in a poor country, had nothing and no prospects, I might want something better for my child. And a fat payment might help me make my decision.

These kind of adoptions are tragedies all around.

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:52:07pm

re: #53 Guanxi88

My honest opinion? If the parents tell you to, why not?

If that slum should then fall apart, and the society that created it should be collapsed past the point of quiet starvation, desperation, and slow-motion anarchy that has been haiti’s misfortune lo, these many years, then the case is strengthened.

What if the parents don’t tell me to, but I know God wants me to give them a better life somewhere else? I’m still not clear on how honest these guys were.

87 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:52:27pm

re: #70 freetoken

Eh. I thought they didn’t know they were leaving parents behind?

88 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:52:42pm

Where do I send my money to fight this?

89 elizajane  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:53:26pm

re: #69 researchok

The problem is not uniquely American. European groups have behaved just as badly and even worse.

The problem is global.

Yes, like the British/Romanian thing—I’ve sometimes felt that the reaction to that went too far. International adoption is not always equal to child abduction. Just sometimes.

To the person who is considering IA—good luck! It can be a great thing, when done right.

90 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:53:50pm

re: #81 HoosierHoops

If my country collapsed around me..Death and Destruction as far as the eye can see…If I was a starving parent and some rich mothers F*ckers came fly in with Money and a jet.. I may give up to let my children live…The smell of death would be too much…
But true men of God will walk into to Hell and save the Nation where they live..
And save families legally and rebuild Haiti…

very poetic…I don’t believe in Hell

91 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:53:54pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

What if the parents don’t tell me to, but I know God wants me to give them a better life somewhere else? I’m still not clear on how honest these guys were.

Nobody told me to, but I just know God wants me to blow up abortion clinics…you can justify about anything by saying “I know God wants me to.”

92 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:54:05pm

re: #77 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s the thing. I know there are tons of church groups on the ground there, working their butts off, and cooperating with the big aid groups. This is not how you do it.

Had they been successful, they’d be able to tout their ‘orphanage’ for fundraising purposes. “Help us with our orphanage for the victims in Haiti” or something to that effect. The giving instinct is strong right now, as the disaster is fresh. Why did they need to take the kids to the DR instead of establishing an orphanage somewhere on Haiti that hadn’t been destroyed by the earthquake? This reeks of opportunism to me, and I’m trying not to be paranoid about this.

93 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:54:15pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

What if the parents don’t tell me to, but I know God wants me to give them a better life somewhere else? I’m still not clear on how honest these guys were.

In general, I think the sum total of really whacky people is quite small. I’m inclined to believe they really thought they were doing the right thing, and probably had - or thought they had - only orphans and those whose parents had given them up.

I think of post-WWII europe. There are a lot of desperately poor Displaced Persons there; the whole place is a mess and I’d be surprised if they ever get this thing sorted out.

But no, if you’re pretty sure that the Almighty has a special mission in a certain place and time all picked out for you, you’re probably not at all well.

94 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:54:41pm

re: #91 PT Barnum

Nobody told me to, but I just know God wants me to blow up abortion clinics…you can justify about anything by saying “I know God wants me to.”

Deus Vult.

95 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:54:56pm

re: #81 HoosierHoops

If my country collapsed around me..Death and Destruction as far as the eye can see…If I was a starving parent and some rich mothers F*ckers came fly in with Money and a jet.. I may give up to let my children live…The smell of death would be too much…
But true men of God will walk into to Hell and save the Nation where they live..
And save families legally and rebuild Haiti…

What exactly is a “true man of god”? Which god would it be? How do I tell who the true men are in any case?

96 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:55:19pm

re: #92 darthstar

Had they been successful, they’d be able to tout their ‘orphanage’ for fundraising purposes. “Help us with our orphanage for the victims in Haiti” or something to that effect. The giving instinct is strong right now, as the disaster is fresh. Why did they need to take the kids to the DR instead of establishing an orphanage somewhere on Haiti that hadn’t been destroyed by the earthquake? This reeks of opportunism to me, and I’m trying not to be paranoid about this.

Well, it’s not as if Haiti doesn’t have everything they’d need to start one up.

97 freetoken  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:55:28pm

re: #87 Aceofwhat?

Eh. I thought they didn’t know they were leaving parents behind?

From the reports, apparently some of the children definitely had parents.

98 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:55:32pm

re: #81 HoosierHoops

If my country collapsed around me..Death and Destruction as far as the eye can see…If I was a starving parent and some rich mothers F*ckers came fly in with Money and a jet.. I may give up to let my children live…The smell of death would be too much…
But true men of God will walk into to Hell and save the Nation where they live..
And save families legally and rebuild Haiti…

No good Scottsman would either!

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:55:40pm

re: #90 albusteve

very poetic…I don’t believe in Hell

You haven’t been to Haiti, have you?

100 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:55:46pm

re: #62 researchok

Exactly.

And that’s why these missionaries cannot be allowed to operate in an anarchy environment. Civilized society demands just the opposite.

Which is more humanitarian…to permit a massive influx of missionary help, risking that the occasional dingbat party also makes it through…or to say “thanks, but on behalf of the dying people of this country, we’ll let more people die rather than risk your excesses”.

Come on. As if other countries’ soldiers and workers always behave in exemplary fashion. This is the last place where the perfect should be the enemy of the good.

101 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:55:49pm

God has nothing to do with any of this…give me a break, I’m about ready to hurl

102 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:55:53pm

re: #90 albusteve

very poetic…I don’t believe in Hell

Buy a ticket to Haiti.. The bodies are rotting.. I understand the smell i beyond believe.. Visit Haiti..Visit Hell

103 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:56:09pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

What if the parents don’t tell me to, but I know God wants me to give them a better life somewhere else? I’m still not clear on how honest these guys were.

Yup. Doing the right thing isn’t al;ways clear cut.

104 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:56:10pm

re: #88 idioma

Where do I send my money to fight this?

to me. i’ll take care of it…promise…

105 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:56:39pm

re: #92 darthstar

Had they been successful, they’d be able to tout their ‘orphanage’ for fundraising purposes. “Help us with our orphanage for the victims in Haiti” or something to that effect. The giving instinct is strong right now, as the disaster is fresh. Why did they need to take the kids to the DR instead of establishing an orphanage somewhere on Haiti that hadn’t been destroyed by the earthquake? This reeks of opportunism to me, and I’m trying not to be paranoid about this.

I picked up a media factoid that the group was long preparing a Haitian orphan outreach, but jumped their own timeline when the disaster hit. I’ll never find the link in the noise.

106 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:56:40pm

re: #95 idioma

What exactly is a “true man of god”? Which god would it be? How do I tell who the true men are in any case?

Watch what they’re doing. You’ll figure it out.

;)

107 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:56:58pm

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

You haven’t been to Haiti, have you?

no but I’ve been to ABQs south valley…so what?

108 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:57:12pm

re: #63 Aceofwhat?

Ugh. Not a lot of creatures around these days with less rights than a good Dad. Sorry about that.

I eventually won that fight but my daughter was 14 by then and did not know me at all. I won only because of the extraordinary generosity of a wealthy couple here in West Texas who had heard the story. They barely knew me but out of the goodness of their hearts they offered to pay whatever legal expenses I could not meet, on the sole condition that I not reveal their identity as long as either of them was alive. They put a quarter of a million dollars into it over a ten year period. They are both still alive now, nearly 90 years old so I still cannot say who they are.

109 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:57:19pm

re: #104 Aceofwhat?

to me. i’ll take care of it…promise…

110 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:57:47pm

re: #59 Rightwingconspirator

All I want to say is 24 hour rule.

Well … this has been going on already for more than 24 hours. I think SFZ posted a link to this yesterday.

111 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:57:50pm

re: #91 PT Barnum

Nobody told me to, but I just know God wants me to blow up abortion clinics…you can justify about anything by saying “I know God wants me to.”

Like “G-d wants me to give this million dollars to this homeless shelter.” So, what’s your point? No one should do anything in the name of G-d. No one should use his faith to motivate him to doing something good.

You’re all inclusive remark is bigoted.

112 Stanley Sea  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:58:06pm

Here’s the PDF for the New Life Children’s Refuge - their purpose etc.

Purpose: Rescue Haitian orphans abandoned on the streets, makeshift hospitals or from collapsed orphanages in Port au Prince and surrounding areas, and bring them to New Life Children’s Refuge in Cabarete, Dominican Republic.

PDF File

113 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:58:17pm

re: #102 HoosierHoops

Buy a ticket to Haiti.. The bodies are rotting.. I understand the smell i beyond believe.. Visit Haiti..Visit Hell

yes, hell, not Hell…I don’t care for the drama

114 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:58:19pm

re: #97 freetoken

From the reports, apparently some of the children definitely had parents.

I read that. What if the dipsy missionaries didn’t know that the children had parents? I thought that’s what the report said. Makes a difference to your question…if they weren’t intentionally leaving parents behind, the only ethical question is the big obvious one in front of us: don’t round kids up and drive away…

minor point, tho

115 webevintage  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:58:32pm

re: #91 PT Barnum

Nobody told me to, but I just know God wants me to blow up abortion clinics…you can justify about anything by saying “I know God wants me to.”

and anyone who questions what God has told me to do must be working for Satan.
For who would doubt what God tells a man of God but a minion of the great horned beast.

Yeah, I’ve gone round with people like this before.

116 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:59:12pm

re: #100 Aceofwhat?

Which is more humanitarian…to permit a massive influx of missionary help, risking that the occasional dingbat party also makes it through…or to say “thanks, but on behalf of the dying people of this country, we’ll let more people die rather than risk your excesses”.

Come on. As if other countries’ soldiers and workers always behave in exemplary fashion. This is the last place where the perfect should be the enemy of the good.

I absolutely agree with you. European groups have done the same thing for decades. We know UN troops have been abusing children for decades and nothing has been done.

Still, we can’t operate in anarchy. The US military has legal affairs capacity to establish oversight.

We need to use that capacity.

117 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:59:25pm

re: #106 SanFranciscoZionist

Watch what they’re doing. You’ll figure it out.

;)

How? I’ve never seen a god. Billions of digital cameras in the world, you’d think someone would be able to spot something by now.

118 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:59:28pm

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

Ya know Walter, there’s a reason my nickname for you is Mr. Crankypants.

119 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:00:36pm

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

Like “G-d wants me to give this million dollars to this homeless shelter.” So, what’s your point? No one should do anything in the name of G-d. No one should use his faith to motivate him to doing something good.

You’re all inclusive remark is bigoted.

Why is it bigoted to make an observation about human behavior?

120 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:00:36pm

re: #97 freetoken

From the reports, apparently some of the children definitely had parents.

That was never in question. CNN reported that the parents/guardians gave permission to take the kids.

It’s a mess. There has to be oversight.

121 Opal  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:00:42pm

re: #81 HoosierHoops

“If I was a starving parent and some rich mothers F*ckers came fly in with Money and a jet.. I may give up to let my children live…The smell of death would be too much…”

Without the capacity to check the facts about those who you’re giving your children to, how would you know that they weren’t being taken over the border to the Dominican Republic to be used in the sex tourism industry there? What if your child wasn’t a baby that families want to adopt, but was a cute 7 or 8 year old - just ripe for the pervs who regularly fly into the Dominican Republic for a couple of days? If my child was a baby, I think that those “missionaries” might actually have a loving home for my child. If my child crossed that age group where most people don’t generally want to adopt, I’d wonder about whether a loving family is in their future.

122 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:00:47pm

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

Like “G-d wants me to give this million dollars to this homeless shelter.” So, what’s your point? No one should do anything in the name of G-d. No one should use his faith to motivate him to doing something good.

You’re all inclusive remark is bigoted.

Anytime someone says “God wants me to…” whether for good or personal gain, they’re selling God as well as themselves. If God actually addressed us directly (assuming a God in the Christian sense), this would probably be a much different planet.

123 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:00:52pm

re: #118 PT Barnum

Ya know Walter, there’s a reason my nickname for you is Mr. Crankypants.

I don’t really give a shit. Once again, lousy deflection.

124 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:00:56pm

re: #88 idioma

Where do I send my money to fight this?

You’re better off sending money to help Haiti, imo.

125 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:01:14pm

Let them rot in the Haiti prison cells. I have no sympathy for these holier-than-thou evangelical types. They were probably salivating at the idea of stealing the kids for Jesus so they could indoctrinate and brainwash them with their fundamentalist beliefs.

126 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:01:58pm

Let’s see, gather up a bunch of traumitized and lost kids. Spirit them away. Pat yourself on the back for being so good. Go on TV and appeal for money to do more of the same wonderful work.

And so it goes.

127 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:02:01pm

re: #125 eclectic infidel

Let them rot in the Haiti prison cells. I have no sympathy for these holier-than-thou evangelical types. They were probably salivating at the idea of stealing the kids for Jesus so they could indoctrinate and brainwash them with their fundamentalist beliefs.


re: #33 Guanxi88

That’s just a right-wing noise machine version of events. We all know they were kidnapped at gun point by racist theo-cons looking to build an army of mind-numbed creationists, just like their dark lord Beck told them to.

128 Stanley Sea  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:02:54pm

re: #112 Stanley Sea

Here’s the PDF for the New Life Children’s Refuge - their purpose etc.

PDF File

They had a “goal” of 100 kids. Wow.

129 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:02:55pm

re: #35 jaunte

Too bad these people didn’t just take all the money they spent on transportation, etc. from Idaho to Haiti and give it to the Red Cross, or some other charity that knows what it’s doing.

Wow.
Who is “compound idaho”?
They didn’t like your perfectly reasonable suggestion.

130 CarryOn  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:03:16pm

So sad, but hardly the saddest of stories coming out of Haiti.
Some of these parents wanted to give them up, in hopes they’d have a better life in America.
So very sad. As for the people wanting to ‘rescue’ them…obviously not the brightest bulbs in the chandelier, but they did mean well.
Hope it all works out in the end, for them and for the children.

I wonder, though, if they were willing to take the children from their parents, why not bring the parents to America as well? I guess the parents wouldn’t be allowed to join. All around sad story.

131 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:03:17pm

re: #20 Guanxi88

It is. Fortunately, she can starve and suffer in Haiti now.

At least this incident answers the question of what is the Haitian government doing in this crisis.

Downdings to the missionaries for not checking if the kids were really orphans or not. But plainly the NYT disapproves of proselytizing, hence the creepy dark talk of “trafficking”.

132 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:03:41pm

re: #126 The Shadow Do

Let’s see, gather up a bunch of traumitized and lost kids. Spirit them away. Pat yourself on the back for being so good. Go on TV and appeal for money to do more of the same wonderful work.

And so it goes.

In fairness, I’d point out that the kids they spirit away are probably less likely to die of dysentery, typhus, or the effects of malnutrition than those who stay behind.

133 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:03:48pm

re: #126 The Shadow Do

Let’s see, gather up a bunch of traumitized and lost kids. Spirit them away. Pat yourself on the back for being so good. Go on TV and appeal for money to do more of the same wonderful work.

And so it goes.

cha-ching!

134 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:04:02pm

re: #128 Stanley Sea

They had a “goal” of 100 kids. Wow.

And here’s their website (seriously):

newlifechildrensrefuge.org

135 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:04:27pm

re: #124 reine.de.tout

You’re better off sending money to help Haiti, imo.

I already did that, now I need to protect them from religion. Where do I spend my resources to battle that front? They need science and engineering, not imaginary friends to fight each other over.

136 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:04:43pm

re: #117 idioma

How? I’ve never seen a god. Billions of digital cameras in the world, you’d think someone would be able to spot something by now.

Do you really think a camera can take a picture of a man’s Spirit? A woman’s love? A person’s soul? There are Doctors working 20 hours a day in Haiti to save people’s lives…Don’t diss the Human Spirit cause you can’t See God

137 rwdflynavy  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:04:43pm

re: #91 PT Barnum

Nobody told me to, but I just know God wants me to blow up abortion clinics…you can justify about anything by saying “I know God wants me to.”

God wants me to tell you that you are acting like a douche bag. ; )
//

138 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:05:13pm

re: #129 reine.de.tout

Never seen them before. I’ll expand the thought though, there is a time for hands-on amateur charity work, but this wasn’t it.

139 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:05:27pm

re: #135 idioma

I already did that, now I need to protect them from religion. Where do I spend my resources to battle that front? They need science and engineering, not imaginary friends to fight each other over.

Try China.

140 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:05:38pm

re: #132 Guanxi88

In fairness, I’d point out that the kids they spirit away are probably less likely to die of dysentery, typhus, or the effects of malnutrition than those who stay behind.

kids are resilliant…I beat the stuffing out of mine and they just laughed at me

141 elizajane  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:05:41pm

re: #125 eclectic infidel

Let them rot in the Haiti prison cells. I have no sympathy for these holier-than-thou evangelical types. They were probably salivating at the idea of stealing the kids for Jesus so they could indoctrinate and brainwash them with their fundamentalist beliefs.

I’m sorry to say that this is actually perfectly possible. I have known (through online discussion groups) several people who have adopted older children from foreign countries so that they could turn them into good Christians, train them to be missionaries, and send them back to their native lands. This from my personal experience in the International Adoption world. I don’t say it’s common, but it definitely happens.

142 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:05:54pm

re: #138 jaunte

Never seen them before. I’ll expand the thought though, there is a time for hands-on amateur charity work, but this wasn’t it.

heck, I agree with you.

143 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:05:59pm

re: #125 eclectic infidel

Let them rot in the Haiti prison cells. I have no sympathy for these holier-than-thou evangelical types. They were probably salivating at the idea of stealing the kids for Jesus so they could indoctrinate and brainwash them with their fundamentalist beliefs.

Well, let’s wait and find out what’s really going on. As I said earlier, everything I’ve heard about this story has sounded very, very bad, and I’m afraid it may well turn out even worse when all the details are known. But until then, it’s possible they’re just well-intentioned morons. Meanwhile, they’re not going anywhere, and the facts will certainly come out even if it takes some time for that to happen.

144 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:06:22pm

re: #135 idioma

I already did that, now I need to protect them from religion. Where do I spend my resources to battle that front? They need science and engineering, not imaginary friends to fight each other over.

Exactly. Make sure that not one grain of rice over which any blessing was pronounced, not one case of water purchased with religious money, contaminates their land.

145 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:06:50pm

re: #136 HoosierHoops

Do you really think a camera can take a picture of a man’s Spirit? A woman’s love? A person’s soul? There are Doctors working 20 hours a day in Haiti to save people’s lives…Don’t diss the Human Spirit cause you can’t See God

Well said. I often say “God is a metaphor for the self.”…won’t explain in detail here, but suffice it to say that showing compassion for others is as close to godliness as we’re ever going to get.

146 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:07:16pm

re: #135 idioma

I already did that, now I need to protect them from religion. Where do I spend my resources to battle that front? They need science and engineering, not imaginary friends to fight each other over.

Oh. Well.
Haitians are by and large fairly religious people.
I guess you would send your money to whatever group you usually like to work through to “fight religion”.

147 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:07:40pm

re: #137 rwdflynavy

God wants me to tell you that you are acting like a douche bag. ; )
//

That would concern me, only the God I listen to says I’m absolutely justified..:)

//

148 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:07:46pm

Topic creeping into religious wars. I’m going to go drive home now.

149 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:08:00pm

re: #125 eclectic infidel

Let them rot in the Haiti prison cells. I have no sympathy for these holier-than-thou evangelical types. They were probably salivating at the idea of stealing the kids for Jesus so they could indoctrinate and brainwash them with their fundamentalist beliefs.

Well, this is so interesting. A thread about fanatic religionist brings the bigots right out of the wood work.

Hi bigots.

150 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:08:02pm

re: #132 Guanxi88

In fairness, I’d point out that the kids they spirit away are probably less likely to die of dysentery, typhus, or the effects of malnutrition than those who stay behind.

Go ahead, rationalize away. Go save a few yourself, may make you feel good.

151 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:08:05pm

Hypothetical: We’re back at the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, and foreign aid workers are caught trying to smuggle out poor American kids with no homes, back to their country of origin, say…Mexico. For the same reasons. Would the same folk on LGF who are justifying the missionaries actions in Haiti also defend the actions just described?

152 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:08:08pm

re: #148 jaunte

Topic creeping into religious wars. I’m going to go drive home now.

Good idea.

153 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:08:23pm

re: #50 researchok

Assuming the missionaries in question had the best of intentions, you just can’t go around taking kids, even with permission. No one or group can be allowed to operate in anarchy, with no supervision.

We have been here before- immigrant kids were taken from their parents and shipped to the midwest as child laborers.

You’re not referring to the Orphan Trains, are you? Because that’s not what they did. Now, something similar did happen to aboriginal children in Australia, in case you’re conflating the two.

154 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:08:34pm

re: #150 The Shadow Do

Go ahead, rationalize away. Go save a few yourself, may make you feel good.

Yep, and it might keep a few of them alive, too.

155 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:08:42pm

re: #145 darthstar

Well said. I often say “God is a metaphor for the self.”…won’t explain in detail here, but suffice it to say that showing compassion for others is as close to godliness as we’re ever going to get.

really?…

156 rwdflynavy  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:08:59pm

re: #146 reine.de.tout

Oh. Well.
Haitians are by and large fairly religious people.
I guess you would send your money to whatever group you usually like to work through to “fight religion”.

In Soviet Russia Religion fights YOU!

157 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:09:30pm

re: #154 Guanxi88

Yep, and it might keep a few of them alive, too.

Again, the starfish!!

158 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:09:41pm

re: #151 eclectic infidel

Hypothetical: We’re back at the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, and foreign aid workers are caught trying to smuggle out poor American kids with no homes, back to their country of origin, say…Mexico. For the same reasons. Would the same folk on LGF who are justifying the missionaries actions in Haiti also defend the actions just described?

I wouldn’t but I also would not act like a bigot and paint all these evangelical types with the same brush.

159 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:09:47pm

re: #154 Guanxi88

Yep, and it might keep a few of them alive, too.

such a negative vibe

160 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:09:51pm

re: #136 HoosierHoops

Do you really think a camera can take a picture of a man’s Spirit? A woman’s love? A person’s soul? There are Doctors working 20 hours a day in Haiti to save people’s lives…Don’t diss the Human Spirit cause you can’t See God

Which god do you refer to? How do you tell the difference between fake gods and real ones? What about folks that do good work without belief in such things? Is their work less valued in the world? The gods in ancient texts are clearly visible, and are described in detail - often based exclusively on their appearance and abilities. Why are they suddenly invisible? Did the invention of film and charged couple devices render all deities invisible?

161 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:10:05pm

re: #151 eclectic infidel

Hypothetical: We’re back at the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, and foreign aid workers are caught trying to smuggle out poor American kids with no homes, back to their country of origin, say…Mexico. For the same reasons. Would the same folk on LGF who are justifying the missionaries actions in Haiti also defend the actions just described?

Depends. Is the whole f*cking country a catastrophe BEFORE the hurricane?

Are there no records, even under the best of circumstances, upon which anyone can rely to figure out anything?

Are parents offering their children to these people? Is mass death a real and ongoing fact of life?

162 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:10:14pm

re: #3 Guanxi88

Whaddaya think it was?

Molestation?

Child labor?

Or some kooky folk who thought they were doing good?

My money’s on the third.

I was really hoping this would turn out to be some sort of mistake. And maybe it will end up that way. But right now this looks wrong on several levels. And the kooky Pastor with his satan accusations does not look good in the court of public opinion.

163 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:10:22pm

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

Try China.

Clarify.

164 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:10:44pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

I wouldn’t but I also would not act like a bigot and paint all these evangelical types with the same brush.

Stop saying ‘bigot’…you’re going to wear the word out.

165 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:11:05pm

re: #154 Guanxi88

Yep, and it might keep a few of them alive, too.

Beautiful, just beautiful

166 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:11:11pm

re: #160 idioma

Which god do you refer to? How do you tell the difference between fake gods and real ones? What about folks that do good work without belief in such things? Is their work less valued in the world? The gods in ancient texts are clearly visible, and are described in detail - often based exclusively on their appearance and abilities. Why are they suddenly invisible? Did the invention of film and charged couple devices render all deities invisible?

And why do you have to start acting like a bigot in regards to those who have a belief, Christian or otherwise? You’re statement paint with a very broad brush.

167 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:11:23pm

re: #160 idioma

Which god do you refer to? How do you tell the difference between fake gods and real ones? What about folks that do good work without belief in such things? Is their work less valued in the world? The gods in ancient texts are clearly visible, and are described in detail - often based exclusively on their appearance and abilities. Why are they suddenly invisible? Did the invention of film and charged couple devices render all deities invisible?

Careful with that argument, son. It’s an antique.

168 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:11:42pm

re: #151 eclectic infidel

Hypothetical: We’re back at the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, and foreign aid workers are caught trying to smuggle out poor American kids with no homes, back to their country of origin, say…Mexico. For the same reasons. Would the same folk on LGF who are justifying the missionaries actions in Haiti also defend the actions just described?

And what if the parents agreed to the removal of the children, as they did in Haiti- would that make it OK?

It’s not as black and white as you want it to be and that is why there has to be oversight.

169 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:12:32pm
“help them as they seek to resist the accusations of Satan and the lies that he would want them to believe and the fears that he would want to plant into their heart.”

Dude rolled right past calling them Hitler and went all the way to Devil.

170 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:12:52pm

re: #144 Guanxi88

Exactly. Make sure that not one grain of rice over which any blessing was pronounced, not one case of water purchased with religious money, contaminates their land.

What are you babbling about? I want every plane to have real doctors, real medicine, real food and water. The Haitians are all stocked up on mysticism and don’t need our help in that department. If christians want to do good work, they should do it without strings attached. Planes loaded with solar-powered audio bibles are a terrible waste during such crisis.

171 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:13:40pm

re: #169 Mich-again

Dude rolled right past calling them Hitler and went all the way to Devil.

God-wins rule.

172 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:13:43pm

If only American had half a heart they would organize and snatch all the children from Haiti and save them.

173 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:13:51pm

re: #165 The Shadow Do

Beautiful, just beautiful

It’s perhaps better to do it differently than these people did.

And I do think it shows a real lack of planning on their part.

With that said, it doesn’t appear to show them to be anything worse than goofy. Fortunately, though, their evil deeds were detected, and they are safely and securely locked up in a Haitian prison, from which they will never again pester these people.

Lord forbid someone should try to save lives. Why cross into the DR, you ask? ‘Cause there nothing in Haiti, and they had facilities just across the border.

174 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:13:51pm

re: #168 researchok

And what if the parents agreed to the removal of the children, as they did in Haiti- would that make it OK?

It’s not as black and white as you want it to be and that is why there has to be oversight.

no, you cannot simply disregard the law….think where that will lead

175 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:13:55pm

re: #151 eclectic infidel

Hypothetical: We’re back at the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, and foreign aid workers are caught trying to smuggle out poor American kids with no homes, back to their country of origin, say…Mexico. For the same reasons. Would the same folk on LGF who are justifying the missionaries actions in Haiti also defend the actions just described?

Not comparable. Because the lower 9th ward of New Orleans is a poverty-stricken spot in a prosperous First World country. No need to take them to Mexico, when taking them to Baton Rouge would be much better.

Port-au-Prince, though….

176 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:14:29pm

re: #170 idioma

What are you babbling about? I want every plane to have real doctors, real medicine, real food and water. The Haitians are all stocked up on mysticism and don’t need our help in that department. If christians want to do good work, they should do it without strings attached. Planes loaded with solar-powered audio bibles are a terrible waste during such crisis.

Wow.
Who sent those? First I’ve heard of that.

Even my CHURCH sent members of the church who are physicians along with supplies. I had no clue anyone was sending planeloads of solar-powered bibles.

177 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:14:42pm

re: #170 idioma

If christians want to do good work, they should do it without strings attached.

Precisely. That sounds just like what the guy who started Christianity would say.

178 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:15:04pm

re: #163 idioma

Clarify.

You stated… “…now I need to protect them from religion” and I suggested try living in China, a place where religion is not well tolerated.

179 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:15:09pm

re: #172 The Shadow Do

If only American had half a heart they would organize and snatch all the children from Haiti and save them.

yup

180 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:15:28pm

re: #170 idioma

If christians want to do good work, they should do it without strings attached. Planes loaded with solar-powered audio bibles are a terrible waste during such crisis.

Wow! Wonder how many cases of rice they bumped to make room for the solar-powered jesus boxes?

Tell me, when the state does good works, it’s also no strings attached?

There’s no free lunch anywhere from anyone.

(If gods aren’t real, then why fight them? Wouldn’t knowing that give you an edge over the primitives?)

181 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:15:29pm

You can rationalize just about anything by saying “God wanted me to” The problem lies in that God’s voice is strictly an internal one. There is no empirical evidence God speaks to anyone. That doesn’t mean He doesn’t, just that it is exceedingly difficult to tell the truly faithful from the dishonest or delusional.

Sometimes the three converge in various proportions. In this case, I don’t know.

182 rwdflynavy  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:15:36pm

re: #178 Walter L. Newton

You stated… “…now I need to protect them from religion” and I suggested try living in China, a place where religion is not well tolerated.

and a worker’s paradise it is…

183 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:15:39pm

re: #149 Walter L. Newton

Go back to the article. When these missionaries were caught:

Meanwhile in Idaho… Rev. Clint Henry, a pastor involved in the effort, denounced what he called “the accusations of Satan,” made against “our team,” The Associated Press reported.

This is a holier-than-thou attitude, Walter. I’m just calling an ace an ace, and I don’t like it one bit.

Oh, did you see this line too,

“One (8-year-old) girl was crying, and saying, ‘I am not an orphan. I still have my parents.’ And she thought she was going on a summer camp or a boarding school or something like that,” ?

184 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:16:32pm

re: #173 Guanxi88

It’s perhaps better to do it differently than these people did.

And I do think it shows a real lack of planning on their part.

With that said, it doesn’t appear to show them to be anything worse than goofy. Fortunately, though, their evil deeds were detected, and they are safely and securely locked up in a Haitian prison, from which they will never again pester these people.

Lord forbid someone should try to save lives. Why cross into the DR, you ask? ‘Cause there nothing in Haiti, and they had facilities just across the border.

Quite so, the world has obviously turned their back on Haiti and are now sending all relief to DR.
/

185 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:16:41pm

re: #116 researchok

I absolutely agree with you. European groups have done the same thing for decades. We know UN troops have been abusing children for decades and nothing has been done.

Still, we can’t operate in anarchy. The US military has legal affairs capacity to establish oversight.

We need to use that capacity.

very fair statement.

186 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:16:45pm

re: #166 Walter L. Newton

And why do you have to start acting like a bigot in regards to those who have a belief, Christian or otherwise? You’re statement paint with a very broad brush.

I’m only asking reasonable questions. Would you let the pilot of a jumbo jet pray to the big juju god of the sky to land his plane? Or should he use his instruments? When it comes to matters of life and death, there are real responsibilities at hand. It’s tempting to write them off with your own interpretation of an invisibile super hero, but we don’t have time or resources for make believe games. It gets people killed, and does serious harm to survivors.

Exactly what part of that is “acting like a bigot”?

187 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:17:02pm

re: #174 albusteve

no, you cannot simply disregard the law…think where that will lead

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Certainly these idiots in Haiti behaved despicably, notwithstanding the fact that some of the parents may have given permission.

That said, I’d have no objection if anyone had swept in Darfur, Rwanda or the Congo and rescued children.

188 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:17:26pm

re: #145 darthstar

Well said. I often say “God is a metaphor for the self.”…won’t explain in detail here, but suffice it to say that showing compassion for others is as close to godliness as we’re ever going to get.

as someone who believes in God, i completely agree.

189 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:17:29pm

re: #184 The Shadow Do

Quite so, the world has obviously turned their back on Haiti and are now sending all relief to DR.
/


Yep, Haiti’s the place to be just now. Plenty of everything a fellow could want or need. Nothing worth looking at in the DR.

190 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:17:35pm

re: #173 Guanxi88

It’s perhaps better to do it differently than these people did.

And I do think it shows a real lack of planning on their part.

With that said, it doesn’t appear to show them to be anything worse than goofy. Fortunately, though, their evil deeds were detected, and they are safely and securely locked up in a Haitian prison, from which they will never again pester these people.

Lord forbid someone should try to save lives. Why cross into the DR, you ask? ‘Cause there nothing in Haiti, and they had facilities just across the border.


your heart is in the right place. and I am giving the folks the benefit of the doubt … for now. but if there was intentional hankie panky here, it could have a similar effect as abu ghraib. our enemies will depict the Christians kidnaping these Haitian kids and selling them into slavery. And if you don’t believe that could happen, just read media from countries in the mideast.

191 rwdflynavy  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:17:45pm

re: #181 PT Barnum

You can rationalize just about anything by saying “God wanted me to” The problem lies in that God’s voice is strictly an internal one. There is no empirical evidence God speaks to anyone. That doesn’t mean He doesn’t, just that it is exceedingly difficult to tell the truly faithful from the dishonest or delusional.

Sometimes the three converge in various proportions. In this case, I don’t know.

This one is true, I promise!

re: #137 rwdflynavy

God wants me to tell you that you are acting like a douche bag. ; )
//

192 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:17:52pm

re: #168 researchok

If the parents agreed and the missionaries went through proper channels, this wouldn’t even be news. Of that I have no doubt.

193 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:18:54pm

re: #190 _RememberTonyC

your heart is in the right place. and I am giving the folks the benefit of the doubt … for now. but if there was intentional hankie panky here, it could have a similar effect as abu ghraib. our enemies will depict the Christians kidnaping these Haitian kids and selling them into slavery. And if you don’t believe that could happen, just read media from countries in the mideast.

Frankly, the lies of a bunch of cut-throats mean nothing at all to me. They hated us before we did anything, they’ll hate us for acting or not acting.

F*ck them.

194 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:19:00pm

re: #186 idioma

I’m only asking reasonable questions. Would you let the pilot of a jumbo jet pray to the big juju god of the sky to land his plane? Or should he use his instruments? When it comes to matters of life and death, there are real responsibilities at hand. It’s tempting to write them off with your own interpretation of an invisibile super hero, but we don’t have time or resources for make believe games. It gets people killed, and does serious harm to survivors.

Exactly what part of that is “acting like a bigot”?

Well, I’m not sure you’re a bigot, but honestly, you just aren’t making any sense.

Has anyone claimed that the pilot of a plane should pray to the big juju god of the sky instead of using his instruments?

And I would love to see a link to that planeload of solar-powered bibles you said somebody brought in instead of medical or other supplies.

I mean, what are you talking about?

195 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:19:07pm

re: #170 idioma

What are you babbling about? I want every plane to have real doctors, real medicine, real food and water. The Haitians are all stocked up on mysticism and don’t need our help in that department. If christians want to do good work, they should do it without strings attached. Planes loaded with solar-powered audio bibles are a terrible waste during such crisis.

Most people do have spiritual needs, especially during times of trauma. If you yourself don’t, it’s a little arrogant to claim that no one else does, either. If you prefer to think of it in agnostic terms, maybe you could agree with Roger Scruton, “The consolation of imaginary things is not imaginary consolation.”

196 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:19:20pm

re: #183 eclectic infidel

Go back to the article. When these missionaries were caught:

Meanwhile in Idaho… Rev. Clint Henry, a pastor involved in the effort, denounced what he called “the accusations of Satan,” made against “our team,” The Associated Press reported.

This is a holier-than-thou attitude, Walter. I’m just calling an ace an ace, and I don’t like it one bit.

Oh, did you see this line too,

“One (8-year-old) girl was crying, and saying, ‘I am not an orphan. I still have my parents.’ And she thought she was going on a summer camp or a boarding school or something like that,” ?

I don’t care, you were painting all evangelicals with a broad brush. That’s bigoted. We are talking about this group of missionaries, you didn’t specify this group, you said “evangelicals.”

Evangelicals are a diverse and varied group of people, some, like these missionaries, maybe absolutely clueless or acting with total malice. And then there are evangelicals who would never ever think of doing something like this or supporting something like this.

Like I said, you’re all inclusive comment was bigoted.

197 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:19:45pm

I think the people behind this were doing it for their own glory. To show the world how compassionate they were by rescuing all those poor orphans from that hellhole.

198 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:19:49pm

re: #188 Aceofwhat?

as someone who believes in God, i completely agree.

god has nothing to do with any of this…that’s the problem these kid thieves are having

199 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:20:02pm

re: #194 reine.de.tout

Well, I’m not sure you’re a bigot, but honestly, you just aren’t making any sense.

Has anyone claimed that the pilot of a plane should pray to the big juju god of the sky instead of using his instruments?

And I would love to see a link to that planeload of solar-powered bibles you said somebody brought in instead of medical or other supplies.

I mean, what are you talking about?

Just another dull, dull day in his life. Throwing out pointless lines passes the time

200 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:20:16pm

re: #176 reine.de.tout

Wow.
Who sent those? First I’ve heard of that.

Even my CHURCH sent members of the church who are physicians along with supplies. I had no clue anyone was sending planeloads of solar-powered bibles.

af.reuters.com

Google is your friend for fact checking, BTW.

201 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:20:30pm

re: #192 eclectic infidel

If the parents agreed and the missionaries went through proper channels, this wouldn’t even be news. Of that I have no doubt.

There are no channels- that is the problem.

We need to set a provisional govt (like we did in Iraq). Right now there is anarchy and we can’t have that.

202 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:20:46pm

re: #197 Mich-again

I think the people behind this were doing it for their own glory. To show the world how compassionate they were by rescuing all those poor orphans from that hellhole.

so do I

203 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:21:02pm

re: #177 Mich-again

Precisely. That sounds just like what the guy who started Christianity would say.

Constantine said that?

204 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:21:23pm

re: #193 Guanxi88

Frankly, the lies of a bunch of cut-throats mean nothing at all to me. They hated us before we did anything, they’ll hate us for acting or not acting.

F*ck them.

“fuck them” is right. But the propaganda damage from this will be brutal and extensive. It already is. I just hope this is cleaned up and the Americans did nothing wrong. But even if that happens, the damage is done in many ways.

205 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:21:29pm

re: #203 idioma

Constantine said that?

be careful with that one, too! It’s also an antique.

206 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:21:48pm

This just in, Glenn Beck claims Haiti is falling into Anarhy.

207 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:21:49pm

re: #196 Walter L. Newton

Next time I’ll be more specific so as to ensure you won’t overuse the word “bigot.”

208 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:22:09pm

re: #178 Walter L. Newton

You stated… “…now I need to protect them from religion” and I suggested try living in China, a place where religion is not well tolerated.

Ad homenim. Try again.

209 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:22:10pm

re: #197 Mich-again

I think the people behind this were doing it for their own glory. To show the world how compassionate they were by rescuing all those poor orphans from that hellhole.

It’s worth a few buck when you pass the plate on Sunday too. Just sayin’

210 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:22:11pm

re: #181 PT Barnum

You can rationalize just about anything by saying “God wanted me to” The problem lies in that God’s voice is strictly an internal one. There is no empirical evidence God speaks to anyone. That doesn’t mean He doesn’t, just that it is exceedingly difficult to tell the truly faithful from the dishonest or delusional.

Sometimes the three converge in various proportions. In this case, I don’t know.

In my experience i’ve found that good people say “God wanted me to” when the question is a variant of “why are you helping me like this”? They avoid the other situations altogether.

211 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:22:31pm

re: #186 idioma

I’m only asking reasonable questions. Would you let the pilot of a jumbo jet pray to the big juju god of the sky to land his plane? Or should he use his instruments? When it comes to matters of life and death, there are real responsibilities at hand. It’s tempting to write them off with your own interpretation of an invisibile super hero, but we don’t have time or resources for make believe games. It gets people killed, and does serious harm to survivors.

Exactly what part of that is “acting like a bigot”?

Painting all religionist with doing things like “pray to the big juju god of the sky…” You’re open ending statement above prove my point. I know a lot of believers who don’t fit any of your descriptions or concepts above. When you address a concept or group with something all inclusive and broad brushed, that’s bigoted.

And I don’t have a dog in the religion fight, I’m an atheist, and I would never make statement like this about those who care to believe.

212 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:22:39pm

re: #194 reine.de.tout

And I would love to see a link to that planeload of solar-powered bibles you said somebody brought in instead of medical or other supplies.

There was a story about a shipment of solar powered Bibles for Haiti. 600 in all. Not quite a plane load. More like a few boxes.

213 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:22:56pm

re: #208 idioma

Ad homenim. Try again.


No, ad hominem would be “you mis-spelled your name; you typed “-ma” where you meant “-t.”

214 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:23:46pm

re: #194 reine.de.tout

Well, I’m not sure you’re a bigot, but honestly, you just aren’t making any sense.

Has anyone claimed that the pilot of a plane should pray to the big juju god of the sky instead of using his instruments?

And I would love to see a link to that planeload of solar-powered bibles you said somebody brought in instead of medical or other supplies.

I mean, what are you talking about?

Google it.

Sigh.

Here.

af.reuters.com

215 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:24:10pm

re: #212 Mich-again

There was a story about a shipment of solar powered Bibles for Haiti. 600 in all. Not quite a plane load. More like a few boxes.

But just imagine - the space they took up could have been used to help move around idioma’s towering intellect and sense of superiority.

216 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:24:11pm

re: #186 idioma

the part where no one was advocating doing anything you say. i won’t join Walter in calling you a bigot, i don’t think you’re big enough to fit the term, but i just went to Wikipedia and looked up “straw man” and it said that Idioma was a synonym. So…

217 Altermite  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:24:23pm

re: #205 Guanxi88

be careful with that one, too! It’s also an antique.

Be careful with that one, its well on its way to antiquehood. Also, it looks like you have no real response when you say that.

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:24:45pm

...

219 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:24:52pm

re: #203 idioma

Constantine said that?


It started long before then. But you knew that.

220 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:25:00pm

re: #213 Guanxi88

No, ad hominem would be “you mis-spelled your name; you typed “-ma” where you meant “-t.”

Such a clever fellow. Had to downding. Sorry.

221 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:25:04pm

re: #195 The Sanity Inspector

Most people do have spiritual needs, especially during times of trauma. If you yourself don’t, it’s a little arrogant to claim that no one else does, either. If you prefer to think of it in agnostic terms, maybe you could agree with Roger Scruton, “The consolation of imaginary things is not imaginary consolation.”

If your choice was between anti biotics and consolation (imaginary or otherwise), which cargo would you prefer land on the island?

222 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:25:08pm

re: #203 idioma

Constantine said that?

You really don’t want to start this argument do you? You are going to loose. It is evident that you have a large amount of preconceived and faulty ideas about the whole and history of Christianity in particular and religion in general.

If you want to argue your points with me, be really prepared… really. You are very wrong in what you are saying.

223 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:25:12pm

re: #217 Altermite

Be careful with that one, its well on its way to antiquehood. Also, it looks like you have no real response when you say that.

Point is, the whole bit sounds rather like a grim auto0didact’s rehash of the tired arguments of early 20th century atheism.

224 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:25:27pm

using ‘sigh’ in a post really sucks

225 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:25:42pm

re: #220 The Shadow Do

Such a clever fellow. Had to downding. Sorry.

Who knows what snark lurks in the hearts of man?

The Shadow Do.

226 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:26:13pm

re: #200 idioma

[Link: af.reuters.com…]

Google is your friend for fact checking, BTW.

Yes, and yours too.

That is nuts.

227 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:26:14pm

re: #217 Altermite

Be careful with that one, its well on its way to antiquehood. Also, it looks like you have no real response when you say that.

we have to try to have a response to “constantine started christianity” really?

228 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:26:31pm

re: #225 Guanxi88

Who knows what snark lurks in the hearts of man?

The Shadow Do.

LOL

229 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:26:36pm

How about all the plane loads of media types and their equipment and supplies? Those planes should have all been filled with minute rice and aquafina!

230 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:26:36pm

re: #224 albusteve

using ‘sigh’ in a post really sucks

Not when SFZ does it. She has The Voice.

231 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:27:00pm

re: #230 Decatur Deb

Not when SFZ does it. She has The Voice.

upding for Dune.

232 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:27:07pm

re: #205 Guanxi88

be careful with that one, too! It’s also an antique.

So is believing that there actually is any historically valid evidence of a nazarene savior in palestine circa 1st century.

233 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:27:16pm

re: #108 Shiplord Kirel

When you cut your leg, was that the same daughter, who posted to let us know you were OK?

234 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:27:32pm

re: #221 idioma

If your choice was between anti biotics and consolation (imaginary or otherwise), which cargo would you prefer land on the island?

how do you know they didn’t have 3 boxes of space left over?

and why make a big deal about 3 boxes to begin with?

235 rwdflynavy  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:27:45pm

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

You really don’t want to start this argument do you? You are going to loose. It is evident that you have a large amount of preconceived and faulty ideas about the whole and history of Christianity in particular and religion in general.

If you want to argue your points with me, be really prepared… really. You are very wrong in what you are saying.

Walter is a very-well informed atheist. He is scrupulously kind to all, but if you bring a bunch of half-formed notions about religion and it’s history, you will be schooled.

236 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:27:54pm

re: #231 Guanxi88

upding for Dune.

Upding for spotting the Dune reference.

237 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:28:08pm

re: #117 idioma

Digital cameras run on electricity. But has one actually photographed electricity? No. You can only photograph electricity effects. Light, lightning, arc welding flashes etc.

238 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:28:14pm

re: #229 Mich-again

How about all the plane loads of media types and their equipment and supplies? Those planes should have all been filled with minute rice and aquafina!

ZING

239 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:28:19pm

re: #131 The Sanity Inspector

At least this incident answers the question of what is the Haitian government doing in this crisis.

Downdings to the missionaries for not checking if the kids were really orphans or not. But plainly the NYT disapproves of proselytizing, hence the creepy dark talk of “trafficking”.

It is trafficking. You don’t just get to set up an international adoption agency on the fly, and have everyone trust you to do the right thing without following the law because you’re, well, trustworthy looking!

240 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:28:30pm

re: #212 Mich-again

There was a story about a shipment of solar powered Bibles for Haiti. 600 in all. Not quite a plane load. More like a few boxes.

I saw it, idioma finally provided a link to his claim.
That’s a stupid shipment. But it’s one shipment of a few boxes. Not exactly planeloads keeping real supplies from getting there.

241 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:28:39pm

I’m not exactly sure what a solar-powered bible even does….

242 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:28:44pm

re: #230 Decatur Deb

Not when SFZ does it. She has The Voice.

not to me, but suit yourself

243 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:28:48pm

re: #232 idioma

So is believing that there actually is any historically valid evidence of a nazarene savior in palestine circa 1st century.

that’s not antique, it’s uneducated.

244 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:29:10pm

Q: What do the NY Giants and the Pope have in common?

A: Both can make 70,000 fans at the Meadowlands stand up and shout “Jesus Christ.”

245 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:29:13pm

re: #240 reine.de.tout

But it’s one shipment of a few boxes. Not exactly planeloads keeping real supplies from getting there.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

246 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:29:20pm

re: #232 idioma

So is believing that there actually is any historically valid evidence of a nazarene savior in palestine circa 1st century.

But, and this is an important distinction, and one that I, as a non-christian, can make:

Aggressive and committed dedication to the proposition that there was such a one is a far likelier motivator of people to send rice to starving people, than is the counter-position.

But you are correct - christianity is older than anti-christianity

247 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:29:24pm

re: #234 Aceofwhat?

Would it be shocking to find Buddhist literature among relief supplies from India?

248 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:29:36pm

re: #244 _RememberTonyC

Q: What do the NY Giants and the Pope have in common?

A: Both can make 70,000 fans at the Meadowlands stand up and shout “Jesus Christ.”

now that’s just funny.

249 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:29:51pm

re: #241 Summer

Reading light?
//

250 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:30:11pm

re: #247 Rightwingconspirator

Would it be shocking to find Buddhist literature among relief supplies from India?

nope. you won’t see me here with my boxers in a twist over it, either.

251 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:30:13pm

My first reaction when I heard about this was “hey they made a mistake, clear it up and move on.” The more I learn about it, the more I question their intentions being without self interest.

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:30:26pm

re: #132 Guanxi88

In fairness, I’d point out that the kids they spirit away are probably less likely to die of dysentery, typhus, or the effects of malnutrition than those who stay behind.

Yeah. Probably. I don’t know what else might happen to them, but probably not typhus. I admire groups that work to find homes for children who need them, worldwide. But you don’t get to break the rules just ‘cause.

253 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:30:27pm

re: #231 Guanxi88

upding for Dune.

downding because Dune sucks

254 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:30:40pm

re: #241 Summer

I’m not exactly sure what a solar-powered bible even does…

maybe it lights up at night. i wonder if there are any solar powered korans?

255 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:30:53pm

re: #234 Aceofwhat?

how do you know they didn’t have 3 boxes of space left over?

and why make a big deal about 3 boxes to begin with?

Because it was Bibles.
Horror of horrors.
A few boxes of Bibles.
Not planeloads.
Which is a stupid thing to send, imo, but it does not appear those few boxes of Bibles kept really needed supplies from getting in.

256 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:31:00pm

re: #253 albusteve

downding because Dune sucks

Upding for being a good guy anyway.

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:31:28pm

re: #135 idioma

I already did that, now I need to protect them from religion. Where do I spend my resources to battle that front? They need science and engineering, not imaginary friends to fight each other over.

Get over yourself, chatchkeleh.

258 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:31:39pm

re: #211 Walter L. Newton

Painting all religionist with doing things like “pray to the big juju god of the sky…” You’re open ending statement above prove my point. I know a lot of believers who don’t fit any of your descriptions or concepts above. When you address a concept or group with something all inclusive and broad brushed, that’s bigoted.

And I don’t have a dog in the religion fight, I’m an atheist, and I would never make statement like this about those who care to believe.

So do you excuse the behavior of individuals’ reckless actions simply because they choose to believe in things for which there is no evidence? Even when they speak with great authority about things that cannot be verified? Do the words “god commanded” bring closure to you when planes strike buildings, or when children are mistreated?

Religious beliefs are not above criticism. To say otherwise is to enable a great suffering of many.

The price is too high for me to respect people’s beliefs.

259 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:32:06pm

re: #232 idioma

So is believing that there actually is any historically valid evidence of a nazarene savior in palestine circa 1st century.

i’ll amend my statement. there is plenty of evidence for the dude that called himself the Savior. what is left is for us to decide whether he was lights-out crazy crazytown or whether he was on to something. the middle ground is sorta empty on this.

260 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:32:14pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

Get over yourself, chatchkeleh.

C’mon - this is his chance to shine. This lets him bask in his superiority over the primitives.

261 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:32:19pm

re: #248 Aceofwhat?

now that’s just funny.

I’m here all week …. don’t forget to tip those waitresses in the lizard outfits.

262 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:32:47pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

Get over yourself, chatchkeleh.

Honestly. Pol pot didn’t need an imaginary friend to slaughter millions over. Depravity is no bigot…

263 Baier  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:32:51pm

Anti-vax Doc declared unethical.


In 1998, Andrew Wakefield, a gastroenterologist at London’s Royal Free Hospital, published a study in the prestigious medical journal Lancet that linked the triple Measles, Mumps and Rubella (MMR) vaccine with autism and bowel disorders in children. The study - and Wakefield’s subsequent public statements that parents should refuse the vaccines - sparked a public health panic that led vaccination rates in Britain to plunge.

Wakefield’s study has since been discredited, and the MMR vaccine deemed to be safe. But now medical authorities in the U.K. have also ruled that the manner in which Wakefield carried out his research was unethical. In a ruling on Jan. 28, The General Medical Council, which registers and regulates doctors in the U.K., ruled that Wakefield acted “dishonestly and irresponsibly” during his research and with “callous disregard” for the children involved in his study. (See the year in health 2009.)

264 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:32:56pm

re: #258 idioma

The price is too high for me to respect people’s beliefs.

Then don’t be surprised if you’re not terribly effective at persuading people.

265 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:33:24pm

bbl.

266 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:33:27pm

re: #78 Guanxi88

I’d like to think that one wouldn’t leap to accusations of kidnapping and such in a state that has completely collapsed, and which, even before collapse, had almost no reliable system of record-keeping.

I think a crying kid saying “I’m not an orphan” obviates the need to check records.

267 rwdflynavy  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:33:33pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

Get over yourself, chatchkeleh.

He’s really making friends fast huh?

268 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:33:41pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

Get over yourself, chatchkeleh.

He must really hate Rev Wright.

And Barack Obama.

269 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:33:46pm

re: #247 Rightwingconspirator

Would it be shocking to find Buddhist literature among relief supplies from India?

I wouldn’t find it shocking, but it would be a huge controversy here in the United States. Let’s face it, the people who make the most noise in this country aren’t exactly tolerant of other religious views. And if you told them the Red Crescent was involved in Haiti relief, they’d probably spit out their binkies in protest (never mind that Red Crescent is part of Red Cross).

270 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:34:03pm

re: #258 idioma

So do you excuse the behavior of individuals’ reckless actions simply because they choose to believe in things for which there is no evidence? Even when they speak with great authority about things that cannot be verified? Do the words “god commanded” bring closure to you when planes strike buildings, or when children are mistreated?

Religious beliefs are not above criticism. To say otherwise is to enable a great suffering of many.

The price is too high for me to respect people’s beliefs.

oookaaaay.

Then don’t be surprised when people have no respect for yours (or for you).

271 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:34:21pm

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

You really don’t want to start this argument do you? You are going to loose. It is evident that you have a large amount of preconceived and faulty ideas about the whole and history of Christianity in particular and religion in general.

If you want to argue your points with me, be really prepared… really. You are very wrong in what you are saying.

Spooky.

272 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:34:38pm

re: #258 idioma

Ya know, respect goes both ways, you have to give it to get it. The fact that religion works for someone else doesn’t give them the right to shove it down your throat, but the fact that it doesn’t work for you doesn’t give you the right to say they’re deluded.

273 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:35:12pm

re: #266 Obdicut

I think a crying kid saying “I’m not an orphan” obviates the need to check records.

Did the kid make the statement there and then, or later and at another location?

Secondly, are we sure the child is correct?

Thirdly, did the child’s parents give him or her away, or ask that he or she be taken out?

274 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:35:14pm

re: #243 Aceofwhat?

that’s not antique, it’s uneducated.

Citation needed. Bring me your evidence.

275 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:35:32pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

Get over yourself, chatchkeleh.

OK, that was perfect, just perfect.
I gotta remember that.

276 keloyd  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:35:35pm

As a Presbyterian, I am put off by anyone with any strong opinions about religion in any way, pro or con. (Just kidding!) (or am I?) However, as a history nut…

IIRC, Constantine was religiously all over the map. At one point he tried to remake Christianity into a cult of Apollo with him as the god. His mom was a good, orthodox, devout Christian. He should be credited for promoting religious freedom, but he was personally not a proper Christian at all, even by the loose standards of Emperors.

277 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:35:45pm

re: #269 darthstar

Well that would be an utter nontroversy to me.

278 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:36:01pm

re: #237 Rightwingconspirator

Digital cameras run on electricity. But has one actually photographed electricity? No. You can only photograph electricity effects. Light, lightning, arc welding flashes etc.

Electricity can be observed. Where is a god that I can examine and test?

279 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:36:26pm

re: #221 idioma

If your choice was between anti biotics and consolation (imaginary or otherwise), which cargo would you prefer land on the island?

If you’ll look real, real closely, you’ll see that no such choice is necessary. A load of antibiotics can be delivered by Samaritan’s Purse as easily—not to mention more likely—as by the Bertrand Russell Society.

You are surely familiar with the different stages of relief in a disaster like this. First rescue, then sustenance—food, shelter, water—and longer term medical care, then rebuilding. Rebuilding includes healing shattered psyches as well as shattered buildings. I don’t have much patience for missionaries knocking on my door, and I don’t doubt that many Haitians don’t either, in normal times. But, this is not a normal time, in Haiti. Many will be glad of the missionaries’ presence.

280 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:36:28pm

re: #160 idioma

Which god do you refer to? How do you tell the difference between fake gods and real ones? What about folks that do good work without belief in such things? Is their work less valued in the world? The gods in ancient texts are clearly visible, and are described in detail - often based exclusively on their appearance and abilities. Why are they suddenly invisible? Did the invention of film and charged couple devices render all deities invisible?

Why gosh, I never thought of any of that before. I guess I’ll change my entire unexamined belief structure, now that you’ve helped out!

/Dripping.

281 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:36:35pm

re: #273 Guanxi88

Did the kid make the statement there and then, or later and at another location?

Secondly, are we sure the child is correct?

Thirdly, did the child’s parents give him or her away, or ask that he or she be taken out?

non of that matters…what’s the point in asking questions that are not germain?

282 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:36:48pm

re: #278 idioma

Where is a god that I can examine and test?

A god you can examine and test isn’t much of a god.

283 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:37:10pm

re: #9 Charles

They were taking children away from their parents. You don’t see that as a problem?

Taking children away from their parents is only a problem when [insert favorite bogeyman here] does it.

Otherwise, it’s an international multibillion-dollar business.

284 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:37:11pm

re: #281 albusteve

non of that matters…what’s the point in asking questions that are not germain?

Taking a page outta obdicut’s book, in response to his statement about the 8 year old.

285 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:37:14pm

re: #278 idioma

Electricity can be observed. Where is a god that I can examine and test?

You don’t test God..He tests you

286 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:37:23pm

re: #258 idioma

So do you excuse the behavior of individuals’ reckless actions simply because they choose to believe in things for which there is no evidence? Even when they speak with great authority about things that cannot be verified? Do the words “god commanded” bring closure to you when planes strike buildings, or when children are mistreated?

Religious beliefs are not above criticism. To say otherwise is to enable a great suffering of many.

The price is too high for me to respect people’s beliefs.

Did I excuse shit? No, I was addressing you bigoted attitude toward something you seem to know little about “Constantine started Christianity… ?”

Your knowledge of a subject that you want to pontificate on is too narrow for me to respect anything you have to say.

287 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:37:23pm

re: #273 Guanxi88

Did the kid make the statement there and then, or later and at another location?

Secondly, are we sure the child is correct?

Thirdly, did the child’s parents give him or her away, or ask that he or she be taken out?


all good questions … and if we get the right answers, this could all be explained. let’s hope so. it does pay to operate on the “up and up.”

288 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:37:31pm

re: #282 Guanxi88

The Tao that can be seen is not the true Tao

289 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:37:48pm

re: #161 Guanxi88

Depends. Is the whole f*cking country a catastrophe BEFORE the hurricane?

Are there no records, even under the best of circumstances, upon which anyone can rely to figure out anything?

Are parents offering their children to these people? Is mass death a real and ongoing fact of life?

Now remind me why these folks weren’t on the ground taking children out of Sudan and Somalia by the truckload.

290 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:38:00pm

re: #278 idioma

Electricity can be observed. Where is a god that I can examine and test?

tug on that little thing between your legs and you will have found your god

291 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:38:04pm

re: #234 Aceofwhat?

how do you know they didn’t have 3 boxes of space left over?

and why make a big deal about 3 boxes to begin with?

If you were the one that didn’t get some rice or had a priest bless you instead of seeing a real doctor, would you still be as forgiving?

292 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:38:21pm

re: #285 HoosierHoops

God doesn’t give me anything I can’t handle, but I wish he didn’t trust me so much.

293 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:38:35pm

re: #273 Guanxi88

I don’t know. So that’s why you don’t take the kid out of the country, but stop and figure out what the hell is going on.

If the kid is crying and saying he’s not an orphan, don’t take him out of the country.

One of the key factors in adoption is consent of the child. They are children, but they still have to consent. Whether the parents gave them up knowingly and consentingly and without recompense is a separate question to be answered; the first and foremost is “Did the children want to go with these people?”

294 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:38:38pm

re: #289 SanFranciscoZionist

Now remind me why these folks weren’t on the ground taking children out of Sudan and Somalia by the truckload.

A bit too far away is my best guess.

295 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:38:55pm

re: #277 Rightwingconspirator

Well that would be an utter nontroversy to me.

Yes, but you’re someone who doesn’t (as far as I can tell) react to everything in black and white. It’s the people who listen to the likes of Limbaugh (20 million of them), Hannity, Beck, and O’Reilly who would be up in arms over non-Christian literature, regardless of its content or intent. And they like being in front of the cameras, and CNN likes filming them.

296 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:38:56pm

re: #286 Walter L. Newton

Did I excuse shit? No, I was addressing you bigoted attitude toward something you seem to know little about “Constantine started Christianity… ?”

Your knowledge of a subject that you want to pontificate on is too narrow for me to respect anything you have to say.

Like a plumber opining on physics.

297 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:39:02pm

re: #259 Aceofwhat?

i’ll amend my statement. there is plenty of evidence for the dude that called himself the Savior. what is left is for us to decide whether he was lights-out crazy crazytown or whether he was on to something. the middle ground is sorta empty on this.

What evidence is there?

298 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:39:15pm

re: #290 albusteve

tug on that little thing between your legs and you will have found your god

Cheetos?

299 Cathypop  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:39:24pm

re: #290 albusteve

tug on that little thing between your legs and you will have found your god


Now that was good. Keeping that quote!

300 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:39:32pm

re: #292 PT Barnum

God put me on this Earth to do a certain number of things. I am so far behind that I will never die.

301 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:39:35pm

re: #172 The Shadow Do

If only American had half a heart they would organize and snatch all the children from Haiti and save them.

Why only Haiti? Why only children?

302 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:39:47pm

re: #288 PT Barnum

The Tao that can be seen is not the true Tao

The Tao is not a path, it is only a gate.

303 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:39:54pm

re: #297 idioma

What evidence is there?

Just because a sunken ship has not been found doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

304 Stanley Sea  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:40:03pm

re: #273 Guanxi88

Did the kid make the statement there and then, or later and at another location?

Secondly, are we sure the child is correct?

Thirdly, did the child’s parents give him or her away, or ask that he or she be taken out?

Well I am still wondering if these missionaries speak Creole. If they don’t, it is not good.

305 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:40:06pm

re: #278 idioma

Electricity can be observed. Where is a god that I can examine and test?

You know I think you just may have arrived at an impasse. They can’t prove God is there. You can’t prove God isn’t there. I’m not sure the argument can go any further than that, but have at it..

306 srb1976  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:40:12pm

re: #253 albusteve

downding because Dune sucks

Wasn’t going to jump into this at all…but downding because Dune does not suck = )

307 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:40:12pm

re: #278 idioma

How do you directly observe electrons? Light, horsepower are all secondary effects. And I am not an evangelist, so I do not ask you to believe. This removes the premise I have anything to prove to you. Apart from your own points of course.

I am suggesting direct observation is not the test you need to look for god.

308 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:40:22pm

re: #290 albusteve

tug on that little thing between your legs and you will have found your god

My god is beautiful!
/

309 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:40:27pm

re: #176 reine.de.tout

Wow.
Who sent those? First I’ve heard of that.

Even my CHURCH sent members of the church who are physicians along with supplies. I had no clue anyone was sending planeloads of solar-powered bibles.

Now that I’ve heard of them, though, I want one. Can you get a facing-translation solar-powered Tanach?

310 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:40:34pm

re: #284 Guanxi88

Taking a page outta obdicut’s book, in response to his statement about the 8 year old.

the book is just that one page…it did remind me of that person

311 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:40:41pm

re: #279 The Sanity Inspector

If you’ll look real, real closely, you’ll see that no such choice is necessary. A load of antibiotics can be delivered by Samaritan’s Purse as easily—not to mention more likely—as by the Bertrand Russell Society.

You are surely familiar with the different stages of relief in a disaster like this. First rescue, then sustenance—food, shelter, water—and longer term medical care, then rebuilding. Rebuilding includes healing shattered psyches as well as shattered buildings. I don’t have much patience for missionaries knocking on my door, and I don’t doubt that many Haitians don’t either, in normal times. But, this is not a normal time, in Haiti. Many will be glad of the missionaries’ presence.

Logic - afraid it will not make an impression on some.

312 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:40:44pm

Being an agnostic, I have real problems with anyone who claims they have all the answers one way or another. My personal sense of God is that he doesn’t seem to have a brand preference.

313 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:40:56pm

re: #295 darthstar

Just a few things. ;)

314 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:40:58pm

re: #272 PT Barnum

Ya know, respect goes both ways, you have to give it to get it. The fact that religion works for someone else doesn’t give them the right to shove it down your throat, but the fact that it doesn’t work for you doesn’t give you the right to say they’re deluded.

And you should talk after you’re broad painted remarked up thread that I asked you about… Gee, we have a real hive of bigots and hypocrites today.

Look folks, these missionaries were either totally aware of what they were doing or religious simpletons and had no clue. But whatever, they were wrong, wrong, wrong…

But, this is not any sort of indictment of all of religion, Christianity or otherwise.

And trying to make it out to be that way is bigoted.

315 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:41:03pm

re: #266 Obdicut

I think a crying kid saying “I’m not an orphan” obviates the need to check records.

If religious followers thought it was necessary to check facts, there wouldn’t be religious followers.

316 avanti  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:41:04pm

re: #235 rwdflynavy

Walter is a very-well informed atheist. He is scrupulously kind to all, but if you bring a bunch of half-formed notions about religion and it’s history, you will be schooled.

Actually, I love to see Lizards take on Walter in matters of religious history, it’s entertaining in the manner of watching a cat torment a mouse. You know the mouse will lose in the end, but Walter (the cat) enjoys it so.

317 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:41:26pm

re: #301 SanFranciscoZionist

Why only Haiti? Why only children?

They’re in vogue.

318 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:41:30pm

re: #284 Guanxi88

Taking a page outta obdicut’s book, in response to his statement about the 8 year old.

Whatever book you’re taking that out of ain’t mine.

319 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:41:32pm

re: #312 PT Barnum

Being an agnostic, I have real problems with anyone who claims they have all the answers one way or another. My personal sense of God is that he doesn’t seem to have a brand preference.

As an MBA might say, God is wholesale, religion is retail.

320 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:41:37pm

re: #315 idioma

If religious followers thought it was necessary to check facts, there wouldn’t be religious followers.

Won anybody over yet, or are you still having to play the AI feature when you’re gaming?

321 brookly red  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:41:55pm

re: #317 darthstar

They’re in vogue.

touche.

322 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:42:11pm

re: #268 researchok

He must really hate Rev Wright.

And Barack Obama.

When did I use the word “hate”?

323 Altermite  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:42:17pm

re: #227 Aceofwhat?

we have to try to have a response to “constantine started christianity” really?

He’s going to get educated via getting snarked at? If you actually correct him, he might learn something. If you throw poop at him, he’ll just think you’re a monkey.

324 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:42:18pm

re: #318 Obdicut

Whatever book you’re taking that out of ain’t mine.

Are you sure?

you mean you never ask a series of interminable questions?

I mean, is that really what you’re saying?

325 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:42:44pm

re: #297 idioma

What evidence is there?

Josepheus the historian mentions him. Tiberius mentions him… multiple non-canonical documents mention him… want more?

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:42:51pm

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

You really don’t want to start this argument do you? You are going to loose. It is evident that you have a large amount of preconceived and faulty ideas about the whole and history of Christianity in particular and religion in general.

If you want to argue your points with me, be really prepared… really. You are very wrong in what you are saying.

Walter, don’t. Just don’t.

327 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:43:29pm

re: #315 idioma

Your completely unnecessary attacks on religious followers are not helping, dude. I’m an atheist. A hardcore atheist. I think Dawkins is a little soft on the subject, that’s how damn atheist I am.

However, I can produce a religious follower checking a fact in under a minute. I can pop up and ask my baptist audio designer what time it is. He’ll check his watch, verifying a fact, and respond.

The way to convince people to take a long hard look at their religion and philosophical beliefs is not by mocking them about it. It doesn’t work. Why do something that doesn’t work?

328 Cathypop  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:43:38pm

re: #315 idioma

If religious followers thought it was necessary to check facts, there wouldn’t be religious followers.


Would you PLEASE hurry up and do your flounce.
Guess I’ll check in tomorrow to see what happened. Got a life to live.
Later Lizards

329 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:43:41pm

re: #316 avanti

Actually, I love to see Lizards take on Walter in matters of religious history, it’s entertaining in the manner of watching a cat torment a mouse. You know the mouse will lose in the end, but Walter (the cat) enjoys it so.

Franz Kafka

A Little Fable


“Alas,” said the mouse, “the whole world is growing smaller every day. At the beginning it was so big that I was afraid, I kept running and running, and I was glad when I saw walls far away to the right and left, but these long walls have narrowed so quickly that I am in the last chamber already, and there in the corner stands the trap that I must run into.”
“You only need to change your direction,” said the cat, and ate it up.
330 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:43:56pm

re: #322 idioma

When did I use the word “hate”?

Well, it stands to reason. If you can’t respect a believer, how galling it must be for you to have one as a leader, or one who influences a leader.

331 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:44:03pm

re: #309 SanFranciscoZionist

Now that I’ve heard of them, though, I want one. Can you get a facing-translation solar-powered Tanach?

Yeah, and I need one with the Church’s imprimatur.
You and I may be outta luck on the solar-powered Bible thing.

332 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:44:05pm

re: #286 Walter L. Newton

Did I excuse shit? No, I was addressing you bigoted attitude toward something you seem to know little about “Constantine started Christianity… ?”

Your knowledge of a subject that you want to pontificate on is too narrow for me to respect anything you have to say.

… So what started the Jesus fan clubs then?

333 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:44:14pm

re: #324 Guanxi88

Why are you trying to start a fight about my posting style? How about dropping it?

334 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:44:29pm

re: #306 srb1976

Wasn’t going to jump into this at all…but downding because Dune does not suck = )

counterdownding, Dune does in fact suck

335 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:44:47pm

re: #333 Obdicut

Why are you trying to start a fight about my posting style? How about dropping it?

Don’t you think I’m ribbing you?

Isn’t this about the way one would do it?

///

336 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:45:14pm

re: #308 darthstar

My god is beautiful!
/

Oh, ew.
I wanted to downding just on general principle.

337 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:45:17pm

re: #326 SanFranciscoZionist

Walter, don’t. Just don’t.

Why? I stand up for all beliefs here… you know that. I have no problem with atheists, I am one. But I don’t like bigoted atheists or people that will try to discount religion with a bunch of uninformed non-facts.

338 brucee  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:45:51pm

Man charged with abusing Haitian boys faces more counts

The case above is an example of what could go wrong and Haiti’s current state and how vulnerable the Haitian children are makes it 100 times more important to go through the official channels. Authorities were right to react.

Regardless of the (most likely) benign intentions of these folk, their actions are stupid enough that they deserve at least some some sort of reprimand.

If they intend to take care of those children, then they should prove themselves to be responsible adults. Not figuring out that taking random children from a disaster zone is the wrong course of action points to them not being the ideal candidates to take charge of children’s well-being.

339 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:45:59pm

re: #334 albusteve

Which Dune, though? There was a pretty damn good one on the SciFi channel awhile back.

re: #335 Guanxi88

You don’t have ribbing privileges.

340 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:46:12pm

re: #339 Obdicut

Which Dune, though? There was a pretty damn good one on the SciFi channel awhile back.

re: #335 Guanxi88

You don’t have ribbing privileges.

Dammit!

341 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:46:16pm

re: #316 avanti

Actually, I love to see Lizards take on Walter in matters of religious history, it’s entertaining in the manner of watching a cat torment a mouse. You know the mouse will lose in the end, but Walter (the cat) enjoys it so.

I tried to get Walter with an obscure Religious scholar’s book one time..He fricking knew it inside out.. How embarrassing…
Dude has chops..

342 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:46:21pm

re: #314 Walter L. Newton

I wish more people would apply the logic found in this post.

343 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:46:47pm

re: #327 Obdicut

Your completely unnecessary attacks on religious followers are not helping, dude. I’m an atheist. A hardcore atheist. I think Dawkins is a little soft on the subject, that’s how damn atheist I am.

However, I can produce a religious follower checking a fact in under a minute. I can pop up and ask my baptist audio designer what time it is. He’ll check his watch, verifying a fact, and respond.

The way to convince people to take a long hard look at their religion and philosophical beliefs is not by mocking them about it. It doesn’t work. Why do something that doesn’t work?

For once I almost 100 percent agree with you except for the “way to convince people to take a long hard look at their religion and philosophical beliefs…” I don’t try to get anyone to believe or stop believing.

But anyway… kudo’s to you.

344 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:46:56pm

re: #266 Obdicut

I think a crying kid saying “I’m not an orphan” obviates the need to check records.

Or, the kid could be in complete denial. But I think that if anyone is keeping records, the Red Cross is gonna be it.

345 Stanley Sea  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:46:58pm

re: #336 reine.de.tout

Oh, ew.
I wanted to downding just on general principle.

The oft requested “ick” button.

346 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:47:20pm

re: #315 idioma

If religious followers thought it was necessary to check facts, there wouldn’t be religious followers.

and that grey matter of yours that you worship on an alter to yourself will fail you just as often as any believer in God…at least they have faith that God has all the answers, something you cannot claim

347 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:47:31pm

re: #303 researchok

Just because a sunken ship has not been found doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

No, but there might be some evidence that it was built. I’m asking very basically: what god told anyone anything, ever?

Or is god just another lame excuse to diddle kids and skim what little the poor have left? I’d like to think it’s all about love, but the evidence says otherwise.

348 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:47:49pm

re: #336 reine.de.tout

Oh, ew.
I wanted to downding just on general principle.

Oh dear…I just realized I have wingnuts.
/

349 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:48:00pm

re: #301 SanFranciscoZionist

Why only Haiti? Why only children?

They comin’!

Free
Only want to be free
We huddle close
Hang on to a dream

On the boats and on the planes
They’re coming to America
Never looking back again
They’re coming to America

Home, don’t it seem so far away
Oh, we’re travelling light today
In the eye of the storm
In the eye of the storm

Home, to a new and a shiny place
Make our bed, and we’ll say our grace
Freedom’s light burning warm
Freedom’s light burning warm

Everywhere around the world
They’re coming to America
Every time that flag’s unfurled
They’re coming to America

350 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:48:11pm

re: #335 Guanxi88

Don’t you think I’m ribbing you?

Isn’t this about the way one would do it?

///

go check your karma…make some adjustments…ahaha!

351 avanti  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:48:53pm

re: #341 HoosierHoops

I tried to get Walter with an obscure Religious scholar’s book one time..He fricking knew it inside out.. How embarrassing…
Dude has chops..

I’m a fan of the history of the worlds faiths, even though a agnostic, but I learned early on, I’m the Luke to Walters Yoda. The force is with him on that subject.

352 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:49:20pm

re: #347 idioma

No, but there might be some evidence that it was built. I’m asking very basically: what god told anyone anything, ever?

Or is god just another lame excuse to diddle kids and skim what little the poor have left? I’d like to think it’s all about love, but the evidence says otherwise.

i’m not even engaging with you and I find you annoying. i pity the people actually trying to have an exchange with you.

353 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:49:29pm

re: #347 idioma

Again: Why are you doing this? Just venting your spleen? Do you really think that any religious person on this board is suddenly going to go “Oh god, he’s right!” and deconvert?

Ask yourself what you’re trying to achieve, and whether or not your behavior is actually going to achieve it.

Then stop needling people.

354 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:49:29pm

re: #348 darthstar

Oh dear…I just realized I have wingnuts.
/

QUIT IT!
LOL.

355 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:49:47pm

re: #347 idioma

No, but there might be some evidence that it was built. I’m asking very basically: what god told anyone anything, ever?

Or is god just another lame excuse to diddle kids and skim what little the poor have left? I’d like to think it’s all about love, but the evidence says otherwise.

Wow… that’s dull (and bigoted).

356 brookly red  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:50:32pm

re: #350 albusteve

go check your karma…make some adjustments…ahaha!

I wonder if the management would consider karma in half point increments… so many times I wanna say well yes but no.

357 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:51:04pm

re: #302 Guanxi88

The Tao is not a path, it is only a gate.

When God shuts a door, she opens a window. (Is this some sort of fire drill?)

358 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:51:08pm

re: #347 idioma

No, but there might be some evidence that it was built. I’m asking very basically: what god told anyone anything, ever?

Or is god just another lame excuse to diddle kids and skim what little the poor have left? I’d like to think it’s all about love, but the evidence says otherwise.

But you can see through all of that, right? You’re clever enough NOT to be fooled by the scam that has enslaved (and continues to enslave) its hundreds of millions.

You - you are more intelligent, more thoughtful, and better educated, that Thomas Aquinas.

You - you have a mind keener than the Talmudic sages;

You - you possess a moral system and theory superior to that of the Rambam.

Great indeed is our good fortune, to have one such as you in our midst.

359 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:51:15pm

re: #356 brookly red

Yeah. I want a “yes to your tone, no to your content” button.

360 Altermite  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:51:28pm

re: #325 Walter L. Newton

Josepheus the historian mentions him. Tiberius mentions him… multiple non-canonical documents mention him… want more?

I think you mean Tacitus, not Tiberius. Unless you mean a tiberius who didn’t rule rome?

It’s been a while since I discussed this.

361 srb1976  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:51:46pm

re: #334 albusteve

counterdownding, Dune does in fact suck

Up ding for that one, as I have never seen “counterdownding” used before… = )

362 darthstar  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:51:47pm

Okay…time to hit the commute…play nice, everybody.

363 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:51:54pm

re: #136 HoosierHoops

Dude I hope you make the top comments with that!

364 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:51:55pm

re: #358 Guanxi88

Shall I list all the atheists smarter than you?

365 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:51:55pm

Another Haitian child’s story…
“restavek” is sorta like slavery for the child, and not uncommon, apparently.

cnn.com

366 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:52:13pm

re: #356 brookly red

I wonder if the management would consider karma in half point increments… so many times I wanna say well yes but no.

I don’t use it or look at myself…I wouldn’t know

367 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:52:27pm

re: #282 Guanxi88

A god you can examine and test isn’t much of a god.

If it exists in the natural world, it is relevant and can be tested. Otherwise, I have every reason to write it off as another imaginary thing. Why not send the people of Haiti some unicorn figurines and magic crystals? Where do you draw the line on corruption and bullshit?

368 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:52:28pm

re: #315 idioma

The main reason I identify myself as a Unitarian and not as an Atheist when I’m in fact both is that I don’t want to get confused with obnoxious pushy atheists like yourself. Give it a rest. You make the rest of us free thinkers look bad.

369 brookly red  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:52:45pm

re: #359 Obdicut

Yeah. I want a “yes to your tone, no to your content” button.

or good point but bad application…

370 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:53:14pm

re: #364 McSpiff

Shall I list all the atheists smarter than you?

It’d be a long list, as would the list of left-handed mormon tapdancers named Roderick who are smarter than I am.

371 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:53:40pm

re: #361 srb1976

Up ding for that one, as I have never seen “counterdownding” used before… = )

me neither

372 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:53:44pm

re: #360 Altermite

I think you mean Tacitus, not Tiberius. Unless you mean a tiberius who didn’t rule rome?

It’s been a while since I discussed this.

Yes, you are right, brain bump in the heat of the battle.

373 brookly red  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:53:45pm

re: #366 albusteve

I don’t use it or look at myself…I wouldn’t know

well it does appear that most folks like you :)

374 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:53:53pm

re: #370 Guanxi88

It’d be a long list, as would the list of left-handed mormon tapdancers named Roderick who are smarter than I am.

So perhaps an appeal to authority is not useful for either side in this debate.

375 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:54:16pm

re: #332 idioma

… So what started the Jesus fan clubs then?

OK, go ahead, Walter! I’ve changed my mind.

376 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:55:02pm

re: #373 brookly red

well it does appear that most folks like you :)

please don’t post it like that other guy did…I’m not interested

377 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:55:03pm

re: #305 Mich-again

You know I think you just may have arrived at an impasse. They can’t prove God is there. You can’t prove God isn’t there. I’m not sure the argument can go any further than that, but have at it..

The same could be said for elves or fairies. But if someone said that what the Haitians need is fairy dust, I’d still call bullshit, even though I can’t “prove” that there is no such thing as fairies, I don’t need to. I simply point to the fact that there is no such thing as magic, and no evidence of fairies exists. This is not an impasse as you suggest. It’s a lack of credibility that we brush off while corruption goes unchallenged.

378 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:55:04pm

re: #367 idioma

If it exists in the natural world, it is relevant and can be tested. Otherwise, I have every reason to write it off as another imaginary thing. Why not send the people of Haiti some unicorn figurines and magic crystals? Where do you draw the line on corruption and bullshit?

Exactly the problem with orthodox materialism - by claiming that only ohysical things exist, you in fact beg the question of metaphysics altogether.

As for sending them unicorns and crystals - well, if it makes you feel better to characterize religiously-inspired charity thus, go ahead.

379 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:55:33pm

re: #375 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, go ahead, Walter! I’ve changed my mind.

Ditto…as my intention was only to point out that the faithful (of any faith) sometimes misuse the “God told me to” line, but idioma is just being a jackass.

380 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:55:33pm

re: #375 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, go ahead, Walter! I’ve changed my mind.

LOL.

381 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:55:33pm

re: #347 idioma

No, but there might be some evidence that it was built. I’m asking very basically: what god told anyone anything, ever?

Or is god just another lame excuse to diddle kids and skim what little the poor have left? I’d like to think it’s all about love, but the evidence says otherwise.

Hmmmm every believer is wrong, billions upon billions.

God thing we have you to set us all straight.

You want evidence? Do you have any idea how many mouths a day religious people and organizations feed? Do you have any idea how many hospitals have been built by religious people and religious organizations? Do you know how many homeless shelters, old age homes, hospices and facilities for the mentally challenged are are run by religious people and organizations? Do you know that good works all over the world are funded by religious people and organizations?

Personally, I don’t wear religion on my sleeve, but that’s just me but I see a lot of good work. And I also see a lot of good works done by none believers.

It is true there are religious assholes- just like there are atheist assholes.

Know what I hat I mean? Sure you do.

382 Altermite  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:55:41pm

re: #347 idioma

No, but there might be some evidence that it was built. I’m asking very basically: what god told anyone anything, ever?

Or is god just another lame excuse to diddle kids and skim what little the poor have left? I’d like to think it’s all about love, but the evidence says otherwise.


If god was simply an excuse, then people would likely have seen through it by now. They do for most others. Further, it wouldn’t have sprung up in so many forms all over the place.

If you want an explanation for religion by an atheist, read the god delusion, by Dawkins. Its far less angry than the title would suggest, and is mostly a proposed biological/evolutionary explanation for religious belief.

383 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:56:08pm

re: #374 McSpiff

So perhaps an appeal to authority is not useful for either side in this debate.

Who’s appealing to authority? I cited three very different types of non-atheists, any one of which possess a mind that could not be matched today.

Religious belief is not reducible to, or explainable by, primitive thinking.

384 brookly red  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:56:25pm

re: #376 albusteve

please don’t post it like that other guy did…I’m not interested

I would not do that…

385 researchok  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:57:15pm

re: #367 idioma

If it exists in the natural world, it is relevant and can be tested. Otherwise, I have every reason to write it off as another imaginary thing. Why not send the people of Haiti some unicorn figurines and magic crystals? Where do you draw the line on corruption and bullshit?

I see. Only religious people are corrupt.

You’re a real prize, you know?

386 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:57:22pm

re: #332 idioma

… So what started the Jesus fan clubs then?

Ok… first you need to clarify on what you mean by “the Jesus fans clubs” and then I may be able to answer you. Is this some nightclubs, social groups, a web site, summer camps… what?

387 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:57:30pm

re: #368 Conservative Moonbat

The main reason I identify myself as a Unitarian and not as an Atheist when I’m in fact both is that I don’t want to get confused with obnoxious pushy atheists like yourself. Give it a rest. You make the rest of us free thinkers look bad.

Question, why are you a Unitarian? Being agnostic, I checked in on it personally a couple of times but just could not get it…sort of a bake sale mentallity without the really good baked goods. People were real nice though.

388 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:58:01pm

re: #363 Rightwingconspirator

Dude I hope you make the top comments with that!

I got a down ding! Someone I have never heard of before!
/Finally I have arrived..
I’d like to thank my Mom and Dad and of course my agent..And the Academy for recognizing true Talent.. I love you guys! Thank you thank you!
*wink*
/You come out checker I’ll tear you a new one..Politely and with great prejudice….

389 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:58:11pm

re: #383 Guanxi88

Uh… who don’t you think has a mind that could be matched today?

We’ve got some pretty hefty thinkers walking around these days. Ones who have had the benefit of the scientific method and all that hot jazz.

390 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:58:12pm

re: #384 brookly red

I would not do that…

I know…you are an extremely dependable poster…dingwing upsie daisy!

391 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:58:12pm

re: #386 Walter L. Newton

Ok… first you need to clarify on what you mean by “the Jesus fans clubs” and then I may be able to answer you. Is this some nightclubs, social groups, a web site, summer camps… what?

Well, and why are we limited to Jesus Fan Clubs?
What about Buddha Fan Clubs?

392 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:59:16pm

re: #325 Walter L. Newton

Josepheus the historian mentions him. Tiberius mentions him… multiple non-canonical documents mention him… want more?

Yes I want more. Bring me an explanation for why the gospels are written so poorly and in contradiction. Why the names of the 12 apostles are different from gospel to gospel, and while your at it, tell me why the silly christian beliefs are in any way better than the silly hindu or voodoo beliefs. Tell me why I should believe that there is any reason to do what any church leader says I should, or why heaven and hell are no longer location specific.

These are reasonable things to ask.

393 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:59:25pm

re: #389 Obdicut

Uh… who don’t you think has a mind that could be matched today?

We’ve got some pretty hefty thinkers walking around these days. Ones who have had the benefit of the scientific method and all that hot jazz.

The Rambam. People to this day still find new insight in his work, and whole schools of institutions have produced battalions of scholars unable to tease it all out.

394 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:00:15pm

re: #393 Guanxi88

The Rambam. People to this day still find new insight in his work, and whole schools of institutions have produced battalions of scholars unable to tease it all out.

And I’ll add that you don’t need to be religious or even slightly theistic to be able to appreciate the staggering power of his mind.

395 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:00:15pm

re: #377 idioma

The same could be said for elves or fairies. But if someone said that what the Haitians need is fairy dust, I’d still call bullshit, even though I can’t “prove” that there is no such thing as fairies, I don’t need to. I simply point to the fact that there is no such thing as magic, and no evidence of fairies exists. This is not an impasse as you suggest. It’s a lack of credibility that we brush off while corruption goes unchallenged.

It’s not that I don’t agree with you, it’s that I got tired of this argument IN THE FUCKING TENTH GRADE.

Why are you tired of it yet?

396 Ericus58  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:00:31pm

Idioma,
You are now heading into straight up hate-mode with your contentions of ‘corruption’ and nefarious intentions against the religious beliefs that people hold dear.

From discussion to spite you’ve descended.. and by doing so you have diminished your ability to be taken seriously.

Grats, you’ve made the ‘eye-rolling’ level.

397 brookly red  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:00:35pm

wait… a higher force seems to trying to tell me something… something about Chinese take out… it’s not clear, something about lo mien… on this I must meditate.

398 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:00:36pm

re: #330 researchok

Well, it stands to reason. If you can’t respect a believer, how galling it must be for you to have one as a leader, or one who influences a leader.

Want to see a magic trick?

You can respect a person, and not respect their beliefs… Ta Da!!

399 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:01:10pm

re: #389 Obdicut

Uh… who don’t you think has a mind that could be matched today?

We’ve got some pretty hefty thinkers walking around these days. Ones who have had the benefit of the scientific method and all that hot jazz.

Aquinas - people are STILL trying to finish arguing out the Summa.

And the Sages - you of all people should know no man today alive could match their minds.

400 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:01:53pm

re: #346 albusteve

and that grey matter of yours that you worship on an alter to yourself will fail you just as often as any believer in God…at least they have faith that God has all the answers, something you cannot claim

Which god has all the answers? What does it look like? Does it say anything? What does it sound like when it does?

401 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:02:06pm

re: #397 brookly red

wait… a higher force seems to trying to tell me something… something about Chinese take out… it’s not clear, something about lo mien… on this I must meditate.

Heretic! It’s mongolian beef!

402 srb1976  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:02:39pm

re: #401 Guanxi88

Heretic! It’s mongolian beef!

Eh, you’re both wrong…Kung Pao chicken!!

403 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:02:41pm

re: #400 idioma

Which god has all the answers? What does it look like? Does it say anything? What does it sound like when it does?

Rather a lot like you.

404 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:02:47pm

re: #401 Guanxi88

No..no…Tom Yum or Pad Thai

405 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:03:10pm

re: #402 srb1976

Eh, you’re both wrong…Kung Pao chicken!!

We tolerate dissenters in our group, provided you share.

406 srb1976  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:03:17pm

re: #404 PT Barnum

No..no…Tom Yum or Pad Thai

Tasty…but not chinese takeout…..

407 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:03:22pm

re: #397 brookly red

wait… a higher force seems to trying to tell me something… something about Chinese take out… it’s not clear, something about lo mien… on this I must meditate.

I can’t do Lo Mien either…I can do Moo-goo all day..Those noodles trip me out..
Maybe in Singapore I’ll Find a noodle joint to die for

408 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:03:23pm

re: #404 PT Barnum

No..no…lox and bagels…

409 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:03:30pm

re: #392 idioma

Yes I want more. Bring me an explanation for why the gospels are written so poorly and in contradiction. Why the names of the 12 apostles are different from gospel to gospel, and while your at it, tell me why the silly christian beliefs are in any way better than the silly hindu or voodoo beliefs. Tell me why I should believe that there is any reason to do what any church leader says I should, or why heaven and hell are no longer location specific.

These are reasonable things to ask.

what is your interest other than to ridicule?…whatever you are internally is okay with me…this personal tora against Christians shows your intolerance, lakck of class and style…in other words you are an asshole for no other reason than your own masturbatory principles…you add nothing, you just need to take away and accumulate for yourself….fuck you

410 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:03:51pm

re: #406 srb1976

I knew that.but was trying to be inclusive, unlike some here.

411 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:03:58pm

re: #374 McSpiff

So perhaps an appeal to authority is not useful for either side in this debate.

Well, not in the sense of settling the debate, but perhaps in asking for a touch of humility in anyone who thinks their side of it pathetically obvious.

412 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:04:39pm

re: #377 idioma

The same could be said for elves or fairies. But if someone said that what the Haitians need is fairy dust, I’d still call bullshit, even though I can’t “prove” that there is no such thing as fairies, I don’t need to. I simply point to the fact that there is no such thing as magic, and no evidence of fairies exists. This is not an impasse as you suggest. It’s a lack of credibility that we brush off while corruption goes unchallenged.

So here’s the question—what the hell do you want from us?

413 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:05:11pm

re: #400 idioma

Which god has all the answers? What does it look like? Does it say anything? What does it sound like when it does?

they are human…you are a bot

414 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:05:19pm

re: #404 PT Barnum

No..no…Tom Yum or Pad Thai

Whopper and fries. If I have to drink tea, make is iced and sweet!

415 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:05:26pm

re: #412 SanFranciscoZionist

So here’s the question—what the hell do you want from us?

What perhaps he can get nowhere else - someone who can’t walk away from him.

416 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:05:30pm

re: #399 Guanxi88

Aquinas - people are STILL trying to finish arguing out the Summa.

And the Sages - you of all people should know no man today alive could match their minds.

Why?

417 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:05:57pm

re: #412 SanFranciscoZionist

So here’s the question—what the hell do you want from us?

He wants us to validate his own ego by throwing off the beliefs he disdains and worshiping at the alter of empiricism.

I just figure he’s not yet mature enough to realize how little he really knows.

418 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:06:06pm

re: #392 idioma

Yes I want more. Bring me an explanation for why the gospels are written so poorly and in contradiction. Why the names of the 12 apostles are different from gospel to gospel, and while your at it, tell me why the silly christian beliefs are in any way better than the silly hindu or voodoo beliefs. Tell me why I should believe that there is any reason to do what any church leader says I should, or why heaven and hell are no longer location specific.

These are reasonable things to ask.

I’m an atheist, I don’t have to prove anything, and my only argument to you is you cannot paint all believers in any sort of god the way you do… it’s bigoted, it’s no different than claiming all blacks like chicken.

You are confusing my comments to you by trying to attribute to me a desire in proving to you why Christianity has a real and valid godhead that informs Christians.

I could easily prove to you the historical validity of the movement, I could easily go in to the archeological evidence of many events and places mentioned in the hebrew and greek scriptures, I could go on and on showing you how little you know of the philosophical foundations that motivate Christianity and religion in general, but none of that would address the real problem here.

You are a bigot.

419 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:06:11pm

re: #387 The Shadow Do

Question, why are you a Unitarian? Being agnostic, I checked in on it personally a couple of times but just could not get it…sort of a bake sale mentallity without the really good baked goods. People were real nice though.

Well, part of it is that I was raised Unitarian. I like the community and the commitment to religious diversity. I don’t want to say that just because I don’t believe in God everybody else is wrong so it’s still interesting to share in other belief systems.

420 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:06:17pm

re: #416 McSpiff

Why?

The Sages bit was at Obdicut. Our common heritage and all - all my youth, I was lectured on the wisdom of the Sages, and how “no man alive today…..”

421 Ericus58  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:06:38pm

OMG, all this posting of Asian food…. me hungry!!

422 srb1976  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:06:40pm

re: #414 The Shadow Do

Whopper and fries. If I have to drink tea, make is iced and sweet!

Oddly enough, I have a fresh gallon of sweet tea chilling in the fridge right now….Alabama has some very good things = )

423 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:06:44pm

re: #353 Obdicut

Again: Why are you doing this? Just venting your spleen? Do you really think that any religious person on this board is suddenly going to go “Oh god, he’s right!” and deconvert?

Ask yourself what you’re trying to achieve, and whether or not your behavior is actually going to achieve it.

Then stop needling people.

I’m not trying to (de)convert anyone, but I refuse to validate arguments that this vile behavior in the name of god™ begins and ends with the Baptists accused. The problem is much, much bigger.

424 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:06:44pm

re: #400 idioma

Which god has all the answers? What does it look like? Does it say anything? What does it sound like when it does?

You know..You are ok..I’ve asked questions like that my whole life…It’s not wrong to question God….
Just make sure when She answers you are listening..
Be Well

425 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:07:09pm

re: #232 idioma

So is believing that there actually is any historically valid evidence of a nazarene savior in palestine circa 1st century.

No ding either way for parroting the line about “no historical evidence”. I suppose Buddha’s life story is totally fiction too?

Upding/downding (= 0) for the weasel word “savior”. If you don’t believe in saviors, that’s you’re affair. Prophets too, for all I care. But surely you believe in influential people? So what you’re insinuating is that if the historical person wasn’t a “savior” (whatever you understand that to mean), evidence of him/her doesn’t count. A trivial if sneaky rhetorical feint.

Downding (alas! that I have but one to give!) for the word “Palestine”, the Roman occupation name for Judah/Israel. Palaestina. It’s the equivalent of the Nazi Government renaming that part of Poland which they fully occupied das Generalgouvernement. How would you feel, if you were a Pole, about that name sticking centuries after the Germans were kicked out?

Calling Israel “Palestine” is the same thing. It’s how people get use to the idea that there is a state called “Palestine”.

Granting your blanket denial of any historical Jesus (I grant this the better to mock you later), pardoning your rhetorical chicanery, I have to inform you that any historical savior who did not exist in the first-century in that area would not have lived in Palestine, but in Israel, Judea, and surrounding areas like that of the Samaritans.

426 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:07:14pm

re: #420 Guanxi88

The Sages bit was at Obdicut. Our common heritage and all - all my youth, I was lectured on the wisdom of the Sages, and how “no man alive today…”

Ah fair enough. Sorry for jumping in, the logical hole was just too tempting for me…

427 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:07:21pm

re: #412 SanFranciscoZionist

So here’s the question—what the hell do you want from us?

he want’s to bring you down, feel bad about yourself

428 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:07:58pm

re: #393 Guanxi88

Okay. That in no way demonstrates there isn’t someone working today who’s producing stuff that will take forever to tease out, either. It’s simply a claim that people/stuff was cooler/better in the past.

429 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:08:08pm

OT: Well, if the Iranian resistance wasn’t enough of a reason to quit sneering at Twitter, here’s another one. A sick baby with a rare blood type got a suitable blood donor thanks to Twitter.

430 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:08:16pm

re: #422 srb1976

Oddly enough, I have a fresh gallon of sweet tea chilling in the fridge right now…Alabama has some very good things = )

And all of them can be bought in roadside stands.

431 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:08:20pm

re: #391 reine.de.tout

Well, and why are we limited to Jesus Fan Clubs?
What about Buddha Fan Clubs?

I would join a Buddha fan club.

I think the Buddha might think it was weird, though.

432 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:08:43pm

re: #419 Conservative Moonbat

Well, part of it is that I was raised Unitarian. I like the community and the commitment to religious diversity. I don’t want to say that just because I don’t believe in God everybody else is wrong so it’s still interesting to share in other belief systems.

I think I get it, but did get bored fast. If only they had some cookies or cupcakes or such…

433 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:08:48pm

re: #377 idioma

The same could be said for elves or fairies. But if someone said that what the Haitians need is fairy dust, I’d still call bullshit, even though I can’t “prove” that there is no such thing as fairies, I don’t need to. I simply point to the fact that there is no such thing as magic, and no evidence of fairies exists. This is not an impasse as you suggest. It’s a lack of credibility that we brush off while corruption goes unchallenged.

What the Haitians needed is what was provided. Doctors, nurses, rescuers, police, military. At no cost, all voluntary, as was the funding for it. They all did the right thing by their fellow humans.

You want to know what and where God is? There ya go.

434 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:08:50pm

re: #431 SanFranciscoZionist

Me too…

435 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:09:06pm

re: #423 idioma

So you refuse to validate them. So why does that involve attacking people, and saying demonstrably false statements? What are you trying to do? Not validating is easy. You’re a ways beyond that.

Have you read Daniel Dennett’s Darwin’s Dangerous Idea, by the way?

436 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:09:35pm

re: #392 idioma

Yes I want more. Bring me an explanation for why the gospels are written so poorly and in contradiction. Why the names of the 12 apostles are different from gospel to gospel, and while your at it, tell me why the silly christian beliefs are in any way better than the silly hindu or voodoo beliefs. Tell me why I should believe that there is any reason to do what any church leader says I should, or why heaven and hell are no longer location specific.

These are reasonable things to ask.

Has anyone here suggested that Christian beliefs are better than Hindu or Vodun beliefs?

437 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:09:41pm

Okay..I got work to do…have fun storming the castle everybody….

438 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:09:57pm

re: #422 srb1976

Oddly enough, I have a fresh gallon of sweet tea chilling in the fridge right now…Alabama has some very good things = )

Now thats what I’m talkin about…

439 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:09:59pm

re: #425 Cato the Elder

No ding either way for parroting the line about “no historical evidence”. I suppose Buddha’s life story is totally fiction too?

Upding/downding (= 0) for the weasel word “savior”. If you don’t believe in saviors, that’s you’re affair. Prophets too, for all I care. But surely you believe in influential people? So what you’re insinuating is that if the historical person wasn’t a “savior” (whatever you understand that to mean), evidence of him/her doesn’t count. A trivial if sneaky rhetorical feint.

Downding (alas! that I have but one to give!) for the word “Palestine”, the Roman occupation name for Judah/Israel. Palaestina. It’s the equivalent of the Nazi Government renaming that part of Poland which they fully occupied das Generalgouvernement. How would you feel, if you were a Pole, about that name sticking centuries after the Germans were kicked out?

Calling Israel “Palestine” is the same thing. It’s how people get use to the idea that there is a state called “Palestine”.

Granting your blanket denial of any historical Jesus (I grant this the better to mock you later), pardoning your rhetorical chicanery, I have to inform you that any historical savior who did not exist in the first-century in that area would not have lived in Palestine, but in Israel, Judea, and surrounding areas like that of the Samaritans.

I was just going to say that

440 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:10:42pm

re: #358 Guanxi88

But you can see through all of that, right? You’re clever enough NOT to be fooled by the scam that has enslaved (and continues to enslave) its hundreds of millions.

You - you are more intelligent, more thoughtful, and better educated, that Thomas Aquinas.

You - you have a mind keener than the Talmudic sages;

You - you possess a moral system and theory superior to that of the Rambam.

Great indeed is our good fortune, to have one such as you in our midst.

Yeah, make this about me, since your position cannot really be defended. Religion is fun, even when some towers fall, or some nerve gas is released, even when children are raped, and holocausts arise. Yep, it’s just a matter of personal preference, and no one gets hurt.

But this must be an intelligence argument of ego thing.

Sure.

441 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:11:05pm

re: #433 marjoriemoon

What the Haitians needed is what was provided. Doctors, nurses, rescuers, police, military. At no cost, all voluntary, as was the funding for it. They all did the right thing by their fellow humans.

You want to know what and where God is? There ya go.

Or lack of God. Or a million other reasons why people are in Haiti. Believe me, those I know personally in Haiti are certainly not there due to God.

442 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:11:11pm

re: #377 idioma

It’s a lack of credibility that we brush off while corruption goes unchallenged.

What corruption is going unchallenged?

443 ryannon  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:11:23pm

re: #95 idioma

What exactly is a “true man of god”? Which god would it be? How do I tell who the true men are in any case?


Can’t tell the players without a program…

444 Stanley Sea  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:11:42pm

re: #431 SanFranciscoZionist

I would join a Buddha fan club.

I think the Buddha might think it was weird, though.

Would a yoga class suffice?/

445 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:12:12pm

re: #400 idioma

Which god has all the answers? What does it look like? Does it say anything? What does it sound like when it does?

Look, are you a rabid atheist, or a frenzied spiritual seeker? Cause either way, you gotta slow down, you’re gonna pull something.

446 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:12:23pm

re: #368 Conservative Moonbat

The main reason I identify myself as a Unitarian and not as an Atheist when I’m in fact both is that I don’t want to get confused with obnoxious pushy atheists like yourself. Give it a rest. You make the rest of us free thinkers look bad.

I’m not in it for you, I don’t represent a group.

447 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:12:40pm

re: #436 SanFranciscoZionist

Note: I know you want me to keep it civil, I’m trying real hard, but it’s getting dicey.

448 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:12:43pm

re: #440 idioma

Ain’t really the spiritual sort now are ya

449 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:12:53pm

Beyond parody.

450 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:14:03pm

re: #427 albusteve

he want’s to bring you down, feel bad about yourself

I feel fine.

451 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:14:18pm

re: #449 jaunte

Beyond parody.

An Atheist fighting with other Atheists because they aren’t Atheist enough?

Agreed.

452 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:14:20pm

re: #378 Guanxi88

Exactly the problem with orthodox materialism - by claiming that only ohysical things exist, you in fact beg the question of metaphysics altogether.

As for sending them unicorns and crystals - well, if it makes you feel better to characterize religiously-inspired charity thus, go ahead.

You might see the distinction between prayer and medicine if you had no choice in the matter. Your argument speaks so clearly to the core problem.

453 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:14:48pm

re: #446 idioma

What are you actually trying to do though? Because I don’t see you succeeding in doing anything other than pissing people off and wasting their time.

454 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:15:17pm

re: #385 researchok

I see. Only religious people are corrupt.

You’re a real prize, you know?

Straw man.

Don’t claim I said something that I did not.

455 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:15:42pm

re: #1 Guanxi88

Those bastards!

Better these children should starve and die in Haiti, than folk with heterodox world views be allowed to save their lives.

Not often I check in and find cause to reply to the first post. Usually stuff build up from there, not jumping in with both feet first, perhaps in mouth.

The point is, how do you know it was to save lives as opposed to souls?

456 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:16:10pm

re: #446 idioma

I’m not in it for you, I don’t represent a group.

you represent yourself…so how do you reconcile your own failures?…how do you deal with your own worthlessness?…are you just one and done? and if so what joy or goodwill do you bring to others?…do you have a point?…what is your point for breathing air?

457 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:16:23pm

re: #447 Walter L. Newton

Note: I know you want me to keep it civil, I’m trying real hard, but it’s getting dicey.

No, no, I was serious when I withdrew that. Go to town. I thought this was gonna be over soon. Use your best judgement, dude.

458 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:16:44pm

re: #431 SanFranciscoZionist

I would join a Buddha fan club.

I think the Buddha might think it was weird, though.

I got kicked out of a Buddhist Temple once when I was in College…I’m a brash kid that went to the Napa Temple and all these rich Napa Locals were doing was chanting to get richer and more famous.. Better Car…
I stood up and said you fuckers have got to be kidding me right? You officially are the most selfish spot in Napa Valley…
I was escorted out and asked never to return.. (never ask a brash College kid to a Temple) Now..I’m under no illusion that these were typical Buddhist living in wine Valley..I will call out any Religion if I disagree with them..And as many know..I really dislike Hypocritical Christians..
Even so..My Life is a Miracle.. I don’t mock God..Just most of his followers

459 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:16:44pm

re: #347 idioma

No, but there might be some evidence that it was built. I’m asking very basically: what god told anyone anything, ever?

Or is god just another lame excuse to diddle kids and skim what little the poor have left? I’d like to think it’s all about love, but the evidence says otherwise.

You need to frequent better circles then. Like the HQs of the Christian charities aiding Haiti before & after the quake, for starters.

460 Gus  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:16:49pm

These acts perpetrated by this group of “American Baptists” has more to do with human behavior than religion. It could have been done by anyone regardless of religion or non-religion. I’m confident that the balance of the American Baptists in the United States would disapprove of such acts that led to the accusation of child trafficking.

I also can’t see how this can become a vehicle for the criticism of religion or beliefs. While specifically they’re claiming that “God has laid upon our hearts the need to go now” their true motivations were based like all human beings, on personal self interest or internal motivations. It can happen to anyone.

461 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:17:31pm

re: #431 SanFranciscoZionist

I would join a Buddha fan club.

I think the Buddha might think it was weird, though.

“If you meet the Buddha on the road, ask for his autograph.”

462 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:17:45pm

re: #400 idioma

Which god has all the answers? What does it look like? Does it say anything? What does it sound like when it does?

God has a sense of humor so when you go to see him he’s going to make himself look like George W. Bush and talk just like Gilbert Gottfried just to cheese you off.

463 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:17:50pm

re: #458 HoosierHoops

I got kicked out of a Buddhist Temple once when I was in College…I’m a brash kid that went to the Napa Temple and all these rich Napa Locals were doing was chanting to get richer and more famous.. Better Car…
I stood up and said you fuckers have got to be kidding me right? You officially are the most selfish spot in Napa Valley…
I was escorted out and asked never to return.. (never ask a brash College kid to a Temple) Now..I’m under no illusion that these were typical Buddhist living in wine Valley..I will call out any Religion if I disagree with them..And as many know..I really dislike Hypocritical Christians..
Even so..My Life is a Miracle.. I don’t mock God..Just most of his followers

That is completely hilarious.

And you may be the only person I know ever to have been kicked out of a Buddhist temple.

464 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:17:58pm

re: #441 McSpiff

Or lack of God. Or a million other reasons why people are in Haiti. Believe me, those I know personally in Haiti are certainly not there due to God.

Maybe you misunderstood me. The relief effort by us was God manifest in the world.

God isn’t a king sitting on a throne barking orders at us. God is the divine light. Neither a he or she or it. (Although I love when SFZ says She!) That light shines out from us (as cliche as that sounds…) when we are doing what we were put on this Earth to do. Be good to each other. Or you can call it God’s work if you want, but it doesn’t matter what you call it.

465 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:18:09pm

Ooh! A new thread!

Shiny!

466 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:18:39pm

re: #395 Conservative Moonbat

It’s not that I don’t agree with you, it’s that I got tired of this argument IN THE FUCKING TENTH GRADE.

Why are you tired of it yet?

Because I still see Europe burn when a cartoonist does his job?

467 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:18:48pm

OK, I have to go.

Walter, if you go ape, I’ll read it when I get home.

468 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:20:23pm

re: #466 idioma

Because I still see Europe burn when a cartoonist does his job?

Aha so we get closer to the real message. All religions are equally bad.

469 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:20:42pm

re: #409 albusteve

what is your interest other than to ridicule?…whatever you are internally is okay with me…this personal tora against Christians shows your intolerance, lakck of class and style…in other words you are an asshole for no other reason than your own masturbatory principles…you add nothing, you just need to take away and accumulate for yourself…fuck you

I guess we should encourage people of faith when they kidnap children then?

No?

Maybe there should be no excuse for such behavior. It’s just a concept I present to you.

470 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:21:03pm

re: #464 marjoriemoon

Maybe you misunderstood me. The relief effort by us was God manifest in the world.

God isn’t a king sitting on a throne barking orders at us. God is the divine light. Neither a he or she or it. (Although I love when SFZ says She!) That light shines out from us (as cliche as that sounds…) when we are doing what we were put on this Earth to do. Be good to each other. Or you can call it God’s work if you want, but it doesn’t matter what you call it.

Fair enough. I myself am atheist (although I do referrer to myself as culturally Catholic) so I would certainly never ascribe any of my actions to a being I don’t believe in. I’d prefer if others didn’t as well, but there isn’t anything I can do about that.

471 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:21:03pm

re: #451 austin_blue

An Atheist fighting with other Atheists because they aren’t Atheist enough?

Agreed.

—————-

re: #454 idioma

No… it’s a bigot being bigoted… this really has nothing to do with atheism, this really has nothing to do with a belief in anything or a lack of belief.

This is about a unintelligent bigot who has decided to paint all believers in any mystical regimen as evil, as child diddlers, as perverts and he/she has painted the whole of every spiritual movement with that same brush.

Idioma. You are a bigoted, ill inform, uninformed poor excuse for a person.

472 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:21:50pm

re: #392 idioma

You have been around since 2007 and just now decide this is the place to start questioning people’s beliefs?

There are lots of forums for that. Go there if you can’t limit yourself to the issue at hand.

473 ryannon  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:21:55pm

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

You haven’t been to Haiti, have you?

Or just Camden, N.J?

jcbourcart.com

474 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:22:22pm

re: #469 idioma

I guess we should encourage people of faith when they kidnap children then?

You’re using a roller when an airbrush will do.

475 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:23:35pm

re: #469 idioma

I guess we should encourage people of faith when they kidnap children then?

No?

Maybe there should be no excuse for such behavior. It’s just a concept I present to you.

you present to me an antagonist…a prophet of your Ultimate Truth…you present to me a person that does not smile, has no mirth and is angry because you cannot convince others that you alone know the Secret…you are an asshole, like I said….concept that

476 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:24:46pm

re: #418 Walter L. Newton

I’m an atheist, I don’t have to prove anything, and my only argument to you is you cannot paint all believers in any sort of god the way you do… it’s bigoted, it’s no different than claiming all blacks like chicken.

You are confusing my comments to you by trying to attribute to me a desire in proving to you why Christianity has a real and valid godhead that informs Christians.

I could easily prove to you the historical validity of the movement, I could easily go in to the archeological evidence of many events and places mentioned in the hebrew and greek scriptures, I could go on and on showing you how little you know of the philosophical foundations that motivate Christianity and religion in general, but none of that would address the real problem here.

You are a bigot.

Believers fuel the hatred of islam, they fuel the rape of children, the oppression of the vulnerable, and you would say that such beliefs disserve the same protection as race?

A person’s skin cannot be changed. When that collection plate comes around everyone makes a choice, they fund terror, block progress, and bring death from disease to untold numbers. To simply say that I should not paint all believers with the same brush is not exactly accurate. Churches need money to do the horrible things they do. If someone donates to Hamas, do you excuse them as well?

477 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:26:15pm

re: #433 marjoriemoon

What the Haitians needed is what was provided. Doctors, nurses, rescuers, police, military. At no cost, all voluntary, as was the funding for it. They all did the right thing by their fellow humans.

You want to know what and where God is? There ya go.

Would this be the same god that caused the ground to shake?

478 albusteve  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:26:41pm

re: #476 idioma

Believers fuel the hatred of islam, they fuel the rape of children, the oppression of the vulnerable, and you would say that such beliefs disserve the same protection as race?

A person’s skin cannot be changed. When that collection plate comes around everyone makes a choice, they fund terror, block progress, and bring death from disease to untold numbers. To simply say that I should not paint all believers with the same brush is not exactly accurate. Churches need money to do the horrible things they do. If someone donates to Hamas, do you excuse them as well?

yes, of course…and we eat raw babies while we slaughter their parents in the name of Holiness

479 Red Pencil  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:27:16pm

re: #476 idioma

Believers fuel the hatred of islam, they fuel the rape of children, the oppression of the vulnerable, and you would say that such beliefs disserve the same protection as race?

So then would you like to outlaw beliefs?

Lotsa luck with that…

480 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:27:22pm

re: #477 idioma

Would this be the same god that caused the ground to shake?

Everyone here knows it was Turtle number one. Go away.

481 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:28:12pm

re: #476 idioma

Believers fuel the hatred of islam, they fuel the rape of children, the oppression of the vulnerable, and you would say that such beliefs disserve the same protection as race?

A person’s skin cannot be changed. When that collection plate comes around everyone makes a choice, they fund terror, block progress, and bring death from disease to untold numbers. To simply say that I should not paint all believers with the same brush is not exactly accurate. Churches need money to do the horrible things they do. If someone donates to Hamas, do you excuse them as well?

When the Churches start lobbing missiles as a matter of policy we can talk. But until then, as one atheist to another, please shut the fuck up. You’re making us all look bad at the moment.

482 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:28:14pm

re: #381 researchok

Hmmm every believer is wrong, billions upon billions.

God thing we have you to set us all straight.

You want evidence? Do you have any idea how many mouths a day religious people and organizations feed? Do you have any idea how many hospitals have been built by religious people and religious organizations? Do you know how many homeless shelters, old age homes, hospices and facilities for the mentally challenged are are run by religious people and organizations? Do you know that good works all over the world are funded by religious people and organizations?

Personally, I don’t wear religion on my sleeve, but that’s just me but I see a lot of good work. And I also see a lot of good works done by none believers.

It is true there are religious assholes- just like there are atheist assholes.

Know what I hat I mean? Sure you do.

Hamas builds hospitals and feeds the hungry, but I don’t give them a pass either.

483 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:28:19pm

re: #470 McSpiff

Fair enough. I myself am atheist (although I do referrer to myself as culturally Catholic) so I would certainly never ascribe any of my actions to a being I don’t believe in. I’d prefer if others didn’t as well, but there isn’t anything I can do about that.

I very much believe in personal responsibility! After all, you alone make your choices in life. I would no more say that God made me do something as I would “the devil made me do it.” (with homage to Flip Wilson).

All I’m saying, is that religion, spirituality is a driving force in a lot of people’s lives. In the best sense, it inspires you to be a better person. It doesn’t make you better or WORSE even, simply by virtue of being a member of a specific group. It’s what you do, ultimately that matters.

484 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:30:01pm

re: #477 idioma

Would this be the same god that caused the ground to shake?

No, that would be the plates/fault beneath Haiti.

485 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:30:31pm

re: #476 idioma

Believers fuel the hatred of islam, they fuel the rape of children, the oppression of the vulnerable, and you would say that such beliefs disserve the same protection as race?

A person’s skin cannot be changed. When that collection plate comes around everyone makes a choice, they fund terror, block progress, and bring death from disease to untold numbers. To simply say that I should not paint all believers with the same brush is not exactly accurate. Churches need money to do the horrible things they do. If someone donates to Hamas, do you excuse them as well?

Bigot.

Some believers fuel the hatred of islam, Some believers fuel the rape of children, Some believers fuel the oppression of the vulnerable, and you would say that such beliefs disserve the same protection as race?

Bigotry has noting to do with race.

“A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices. The correct use of the term requires the elements of obstinacy, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing devotion.”

You are verging on stupid here… really, when you make comments like “such beliefs disserve the same protection as race” you display that fact that you don’t even have knowledge of simple concepts and lack the necessary intellect to even argue a point.

Really, if you don’t even know the definition of bigot, how do you expect to understand any of the other complex issues that you have tried to address.

I thought I was talking to someone who at least had a foundational knowledge of English, it’s apparent I am not.

Case closed.

486 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:30:53pm

re: #453 Obdicut

What are you actually trying to do though? Because I don’t see you succeeding in doing anything other than pissing people off and wasting their time.

If people here were busy, they wouldn’t be on LGF, because… they’d be busy.

487 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:31:13pm

re: #476 idioma

Believers fuel the hatred of islam, they fuel the rape of children, the oppression of the vulnerable, and you would say that such beliefs disserve the same protection as race?

A person’s skin cannot be changed. When that collection plate comes around everyone makes a choice, they fund terror, block progress, and bring death from disease to untold numbers. To simply say that I should not paint all believers with the same brush is not exactly accurate. Churches need money to do the horrible things they do. If someone donates to Hamas, do you excuse them as well?

Believers? or people?

If you think all murderers, robbers and all around bad people are religious, then you would be way wrong.

488 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:31:39pm

re: #483 marjoriemoon

I very much believe in personal responsibility! After all, you alone make your choices in life. I would no more say that God made me do something as I would “the devil made me do it.” (with homage to Flip Wilson).

All I’m saying, is that religion, spirituality is a driving force in a lot of people’s lives. In the best sense, it inspires you to be a better person. It doesn’t make you better or WORSE even, simply by virtue of being a member of a specific group. It’s what you do, ultimately that matters.

And that’s a belief system I have no problem supporting, even if I don’t buy into it myself. Its unfortunate that many do use religion as a way to avoid personal responsibility. But that’s true of many things in life, not just religion.

489 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:31:59pm

re: #482 idioma

Hamas builds hospitals and feeds the hungry, but I don’t give them a pass either.

That’s the first halfway sensible thing you’ve said all thread long. Now, follow that trail of bread crumbs, and see if you can spot the differences between Hamas and, say, the United Methodist Committee on Relief.

490 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:33:25pm

re: #456 albusteve

you represent yourself…so how do you reconcile your own failures?…how do you deal with your own worthlessness?…are you just one and done? and if so what joy or goodwill do you bring to others?…do you have a point?…what is your point for breathing air?

You know little of me, and I don’t answer to you. Some of us get through life just fine without imaginary friends.

491 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:34:58pm

re: #459 The Sanity Inspector

You need to frequent better circles then. Like the HQs of the Christian charities aiding Haiti before & after the quake, for starters.

How about the Vatican? I bet every catholic penny goes to good works. All the rumors are untrue. The priests do nothing but good.

///

492 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:35:35pm

re: #486 idioma

Fatuous reply is fatuous.

You can’t answer a straightforward question about why you’re doing what you’re doing. That should really tell you something.

And you should read the Dennett book. It’d satisfy you.

493 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:35:51pm

re: #468 Mich-again

Aha so we get closer to the real message. All religions are equally bad.

What does a good religion look like?

494 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:36:50pm

Is it possible to downding someone into submission?

Yeah..I know I said I was leaving but you know how you don’t want to look at an Elvis painting on black velvet, but you can’t tear your eyes away because it is just so goddawful? Same kinda deal.

495 windsagio  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:38:29pm

re: #494 PT Barnum

lol that comment made me look at the thread :p

somebody’s either in the middle of a rage-seizure or is just baiting now >>

496 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:38:42pm

re: #488 McSpiff

And that’s a belief system I have no problem supporting, even if I don’t buy into it myself. Its unfortunate that many do use religion as a way to avoid personal responsibility. But that’s true of many things in life, not just religion.

I’m new to Facebook. I resisted as long as I could until my family threatened to string me up.

I was shocked and amazed how many people recite scripture daily. Mostly because I know them to be some of the most gossipy women I’ve ever worked with. And it floors me. These are co-workers, mostly because we play Farmville together. Not generally people I’d socialize with. But I want to say, “DO YOU READ WHAT YOU POST AT ALL??”

Some folks think they have “God in their pocket” so they don’t have to do anything else, include manage their own behavior. They’re already climbed the mountain so that’s it.

It’s an ongoing thing.

497 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:41:02pm

re: #493 idioma

What does a good religion look like?

How about like this. Or is that just another face of evil ?

498 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:41:50pm

re: #471 Walter L. Newton

No… it’s a bigot being bigoted… this really has nothing to do with atheism, this really has nothing to do with a belief in anything or a lack of belief.

This is about a unintelligent bigot who has decided to paint all believers in any mystical regimen as evil, as child diddlers, as perverts and he/she has painted the whole of every spiritual movement with that same brush.

Idioma. You are a bigoted, ill inform, uninformed poor excuse for a person.

That’s a pretty big judgement coming from you. Bring me a religion that gives more than it takes, and is completely honest and transparent in it’s dealings. Then maybe you’ll have a point. Until then my claim stands: religion allows people to get on a plane during a time of crisis, fly to an island, and do what they “believe” is best. Without a reality check in place, human beings make horrible decisions, and religion keeps these same people well funded.re: #479 Red Pencil

So then would you like to outlaw beliefs?

Lotsa luck with that…

That’s not a logical conclusion, and you know it.

499 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:42:06pm

re: #497 Mich-again

How about like this. Or is that just another face of evil ?

Evil, evil lady. Deluded, too.

Just ask idioma.

No, really, it needs the attention.

500 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:42:09pm

re: #494 PT Barnum

Is it possible to downding someone into submission?

Yeah..I know I said I was leaving but you know how you don’t want to look at an Elvis painting on black velvet, but you can’t tear your eyes away because it is just so goddawful? Same kinda deal.

I can’t believe as an atheist I have to tell someone who to respect those religionist who are good at heart, and to hate an shun those who are evil.

Most grown adults are able to distinguish good from bad, and tend not to lump them into the same bucket.

501 windsagio  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:42:15pm

re: #496 marjoriemoon

on a total sidenote, be careful with facebook. They’re truly expert at winnowing all of your personal information out of you for various (legal) purposes.

Also, nothing makes me crazier than people that quote scripture (usually without context) as if that automatically makes them faithful and good people >>

502 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:43:49pm

re: #500 Walter L. Newton

I can’t believe as an atheist I have to tell someone who to respect those religionist who are good at heart, and to hate an shun those who are evil.

Most grown adults are able to distinguish good from bad, and tend not to lump them into the same bucket.

Like I said earlier, he may just not be mature enough to realize he doesn’t know everything.

503 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:43:50pm

re: #481 McSpiff

When the Churches start lobbing missiles as a matter of policy we can talk. But until then, as one atheist to another, please shut the fuck up. You’re making us all look bad at the moment.

Didn’t George W. Bush use Christianity as his talking points?
I think Hitler used a little bit of the ol’ JC to get his message out too.
God bless™

504 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:44:25pm

re: #503 idioma

Didn’t George W. Bush use Christianity as his talking points?
I think Hitler used a little bit of the ol’ JC to get his message out too.
God bless™

And, so, Godwin’s Law kick in.

505 jaunte  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:44:29pm

God wins the thread.

506 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:45:37pm

re: #498 idioma

Amish. Quakers. Barkers.

507 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:45:47pm

re: #505 jaunte

Somebody already made that joke..but I gave you an upding for the general concept….

God wins all threads.

508 windsagio  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:46:02pm

re: #504 Guanxi88

lol, you can’t call a Godwin. Or you shouldn’t, its gauche ;)

509 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:47:30pm

re: #485 Walter L. Newton

Bigot.

Some believers fuel the hatred of islam, Some believers fuel the rape of children, Some believers fuel the oppression of the vulnerable, and you would say that such beliefs disserve the same protection as race?

Bigotry has noting to do with race.

“A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices. The correct use of the term requires the elements of obstinacy, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing devotion.”

You are verging on stupid here… really, when you make comments like “such beliefs disserve the same protection as race” you display that fact that you don’t even have knowledge of simple concepts and lack the necessary intellect to even argue a point.

Really, if you don’t even know the definition of bigot, how do you expect to understand any of the other complex issues that you have tried to address.

I thought I was talking to someone who at least had a foundational knowledge of English, it’s apparent I am not.

Case closed.

tl;dr

let me guess, I’m a bigot because I criticize believers’ funneling money into corrupt organizations.

It’s intellectually lazy to give a little without knowing where it goes.

510 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:48:08pm

re: #506 Walter L. Newton

Amish. Quakers. Barkers.

Trivia time.

I have to LOL at myself for this answer. Anyone catch a vague popular culture reference here, and can you tell me the source?

511 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:50:27pm

re: #487 marjoriemoon

Believers? or people?

If you think all murderers, robbers and all around bad people are religious, then you would be way wrong.

Only religion could get the funds needed to make the world this scary and harmful. This is more about cash flow than individual beliefs. If you believed in a dragon that flys over your car, and that it keeps you safe, so you don’t wear a seatbelt, that’s just fine by me. But if you give money to the prick that lied to you about that dragon, and that prick uses your dollar to get kids to take their seat belts off, you better take some credit for the glass and metal that rips them apart.

512 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:50:50pm

re: #491 idioma

How about the Vatican? I bet every catholic penny goes to good works. All the rumors are untrue. The priests do nothing but good.

///

Every endeavor can be judged a success by low enough standards; and everyone endeavor can be judged a failure by high enough standards. Wanna lay odds on anyone—not just Haitians—sending back Catholic relief in protest?

513 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:51:55pm

re: #501 windsagio

on a total sidenote, be careful with facebook. They’re truly expert at winnowing all of your personal information out of you for various (legal) purposes.

Also, nothing makes me crazier than people that quote scripture (usually without context) as if that automatically makes them faithful and good people >>

I don’t have any info they could farm other than my name state and birthday. It’s a throw away email addy too.

I must say I really like Facebook. I can keep in touch with the fam especially the nieces that I never see.

514 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:52:25pm

re: #504 Guanxi88

And, so, Godwin’s Law kick in.

But not until comments were at 300+

515 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:52:31pm

re: #511 idioma

Only religion could get the funds needed to make the world this scary and harmful. This is more about cash flow than individual beliefs. If you believed in a dragon that flys over your car, and that it keeps you safe, so you don’t wear a seatbelt, that’s just fine by me. But if you give money to the prick that lied to you about that dragon, and that prick uses your dollar to get kids to take their seat belts off, you better take some credit for the glass and metal that rips them apart.

What religion is the Red Cross?

516 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:52:34pm

re: #503 idioma

Didn’t George W. Bush use Christianity as his talking points?
I think Hitler used a little bit of the ol’ JC to get his message out too.
God bless™

You’re truly clueless. Good day.

517 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:53:01pm

re: #509 idioma

tl;dr

let me guess, I’m a bigot because I criticize believers’ funneling money into corrupt organizations.

It’s intellectually lazy to give a little without knowing where it goes.

You’re a bigot for grouping all religions and religious people into one basket. It’s that simple.

Do you know any good religious people? Do you have anything good to say about any religious person, organization, belief system, mystical philosophy… any?

518 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:53:07pm

re: #500 Walter L. Newton

I can’t believe as an atheist I have to tell someone who to respect those religionist who are good at heart, and to hate an shun those who are evil.

Most grown adults are able to distinguish good from bad, and tend not to lump them into the same bucket.

All of those dollars in the system look the same to me.

519 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:53:19pm

re: #511 idioma

Only religion could get the funds needed to make the world this scary and harmful. This is more about cash flow than individual beliefs. If you believed in a dragon that flys over your car, and that it keeps you safe, so you don’t wear a seatbelt, that’s just fine by me. But if you give money to the prick that lied to you about that dragon, and that prick uses your dollar to get kids to take their seat belts off, you better take some credit for the glass and metal that rips them apart.

Something within religious experience hurt you very badly, I get that sense. I’m sorry about that.

520 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:54:02pm

re: #509 idioma

tl;dr

let me guess, I’m a bigot because I criticize believers’ funneling money into corrupt organizations.

It’s intellectually lazy to give a little without knowing where it goes.

To long, didn’t read… how old are you…

521 windsagio  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:55:26pm

re: #519 marjoriemoon

I think its more he’s spent too much time in the internet atheist echochamber.

Its easy to forget how chill people like Varek and Walter are on the subject, compared to the way alot of the online community is.

522 rwdflynavy  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:56:57pm

re: #511 idioma

Only religion could get the funds needed to make the world this scary and harmful. This is more about cash flow than individual beliefs. If you believed in a dragon that flys over your car, and that it keeps you safe, so you don’t wear a seatbelt, that’s just fine by me. But if you give money to the prick that lied to you about that dragon, and that prick uses your dollar to get kids to take their seat belts off, you better take some credit for the glass and metal that rips them apart.

Go read up on Stalin and get back to me with his religion.

523 Red Pencil  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:57:46pm

re: #509 idioma

tl;dr

let me guess, I’m a bigot because I criticize believers’ funneling money into corrupt organizations.

It’s intellectually lazy to give a little without knowing where it goes.

It’s intellectually lazy to stay in a discussion when you are answering posts with “too long didn’t read” aka tl;dr.

The only people I know who use that abbreviation are mighty young btw.

524 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:58:41pm

re: #497 Mich-again

How about like this. Or is that just another face of evil ?

Actually, yes that IS the face of evil…

Stop reading now if you’ll be offended by strong criticism of this “saint”.

Mother Teresa was a conservative Catholic who supported the evil Pope’s hard line on abortion, contraception, divorce, women priests, and generally had very bad ideas about women. A woman’s highest virtue was to do her duty to the church and her husband – to be a “good” wife and mother and to serve the Catholic church.

She built up and ran an international corporation using slave labour. It was not slave labour in the legal sense, of course, but the psychological reality was precisely that of slave labour. She chose India as her base and got many young girls for her convents. Those young girls/women were not there voluntarily in the psychological sense, they were there because their parents put enormous psychological pressure on them to become nuns. Mother T had a hideously austere set of rules for them, summed up by chastity, obedience and suchlike, and that meant obedience to the church, i.e., her. (One wonders what happened when chastity and obedience came into conflict. I’ll bet it was chastity that got sacrificed.)

She got off on playing the part of the ministering angel, and chose to save the souls of the lowest of the low – the people who were dying. The problem is that she was not interested in curing anyone. As Christopher Hitchens has said, an English nurse actually left after Mother Teresa had refused to help a child who would certainly have lived had he had a course of antibiotics. Her response was that it was irrelevant because he was going to meet God anyway! She wasn’t interested in the living or potentially living, only the dying, and she was only interested in the dying for her own selfish pleasure in getting off on playing the ministering angel. She wasn’t interested in helping them to get better, only to save their souls.

She betrayed the dying too. What she was doing was incompatible with having moral relationships with people. When you develop a relationship with someone, you thereby acquire an obligation to treat that person differently from how you might treat a complete stranger. A parent who has a child adopted at birth does not raise obligations to that child, but a parent who chooses to parent does thereby raise an obligation to the children she chooses to bring up. To the extent that Mother Teresa developed relationships with people in her care, she was acting immorally in not using the available money to treat them where that would have made a difference to whether they live or die, for example.

In her own case, when she got sick, she took herself straight to the best heart specialist in New York. There is nothing wrong with that! It was right for her to spend that money on curing herself, but it was wrong of her not to find a few dollars for a course of antibiotics to save a sick child with whom she had developed a relationship.

525 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:59:18pm

re: #521 windsagio

I think its more he’s spent too much time in the internet atheist echochamber.

Its easy to forget how chill people like Varek and Walter are on the subject, compared to the way alot of the online community is.

I’m supporting those with a belief. I always do. I have more than enough education in the matter to explain to, let’s say a Christian why their belief system has foundational fallacies supporting it, but at the same time, that’s only if that person wants to debate the issue with me. I close to never jump on someone for having a belief in a g-d.

526 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:00:17pm

re: #522 rwdflynavy

Go read up on Stalin and get back to me with his religion.

Did Stalin do anything in the name of Atheism? Or did he do things in the name of Communism and Nationalism? Your argument is weaker than a baby fart.

527 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:00:45pm

re: #521 windsagio

I think its more he’s spent too much time in the internet atheist echochamber.

Its easy to forget how chill people like Varek and Walter are on the subject, compared to the way alot of the online community is.

I know quite a few atheists. One of my bosses is not only one of the smartest people I’ve ever met (Harvard/Princeton grad) he’s also one of the most ethical and moral people I’ve ever met, maybe THE most. He’s an agnostic actually. He says atheism is too committal :p

528 windsagio  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:00:52pm

re: #525 Walter L. Newton

which is my point :)

Theres a strong evangelical atheist movement on the ‘net, and they tend to be massive douches.

Its just good to get the reminder that not everyone is like that by seeing the real thing sometimes >>

529 rwdflynavy  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:01:15pm

re: #526 idioma

Did Stalin do anything in the name of Atheism? Or did he do things in the name of Communism and Nationalism? Your argument is weaker than a baby fart.

You said:
Only religion could get the funds needed to make the world this scary and harmful.

I asked what religion Stalin followed.

530 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:01:41pm

re: #524 idioma

You’re not even capable of forming your own comment or developing your own thought… you are a linker, not a thinker… a large clip and paste job.

fitz-claridge.com

531 rwdflynavy  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:02:08pm

re: #529 rwdflynavy

You said:
Only religion could get the funds needed to make the world this scary and harmful.

I asked what religion Stalin followed.

If you prefer you can tell me about Mao or Pol Pot instead.

532 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:02:09pm

re: #506 Walter L. Newton

Amish. Quakers. Barkers.

Documentary 2002: Devil’s Playground

The Amish are not a good example.

533 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:03:18pm

re: #524 idioma

And are you Sarah Fitz-Claridge? Because if you are not, you just went far beyond fair use laws by clipping and pasting her whole article and not linking to it are attributing her authorship.

You are a dishonest little fool who can’t even think for themselves.

534 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:03:40pm

re: #515 marjoriemoon

What religion is the Red Cross?

The Red Cross is secular.

535 Red Pencil  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:04:09pm

re: #532 idioma

Documentary 2002: Devil’s Playground

The Amish are not a good example.

But the Barkers are!

536 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:06:30pm

re: #529 rwdflynavy

You said:
Only religion could get the funds needed to make the world this scary and harmful.

I asked what religion Stalin followed.

Stalin is a spit in the bucket compared to religion.

537 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:07:29pm

re: #533 Walter L. Newton

And are you Sarah Fitz-Claridge? Because if you are not, you just went far beyond fair use laws by clipping and pasting her whole article and not linking to it are attributing her authorship.

You are a dishonest little fool who can’t even think for themselves.

Oh quite a catch!

538 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:07:29pm

re: #530 Walter L. Newton

You’re not even capable of forming your own comment or developing your own thought… you are a linker, not a thinker… a large clip and paste job.

[Link: www.fitz-claridge.com…]

Aw! You do care. How sweet! I could kiss you.

539 rwdflynavy  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:07:43pm

re: #536 idioma

Stalin is a spit in the bucket compared to religion.

Another great comeback. You are excellent at not answering questions. You are a very little man. I’m done.

540 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:08:27pm

re: #533 Walter L. Newton

And are you Sarah Fitz-Claridge? Because if you are not, you just went far beyond fair use laws by clipping and pasting her whole article and not linking to it are attributing her authorship.

You are a dishonest little fool who can’t even think for themselves.

And you are making this a matter of personal attack. And that’s funny.

541 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:08:50pm

re: #539 rwdflynavy

Another great comeback. You are excellent at not answering questions. You are a very little man. I’m done.

Dance for me!

542 windsagio  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:09:35pm

re: #541 idioma

Foul!


15 yards for “I got pissed off and was ranting, but now I’m gonna say I was only trolling”

543 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:10:04pm

re: #534 idioma

The Red Cross is secular.

I realized after I typed that, I was misreading you. Then you went on into a place I can’t really respond. I’m a Jew. I gave you my personal expression of God upthread.

544 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:10:59pm

re: #540 idioma

And you are making this a matter of personal attack. And that’s funny.

I’m asking you a question. As a published author I don’t like to see people abuse fair use laws, especially when you are trying to pass the material off as coming from your hand.

So, yes, it is certainly a personal attack, and you never answered my question.

Are you Sarah Fitz-Claridge, and if you are not, why are you using her material unattributed?

545 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:13:17pm

re: #544 Walter L. Newton

I’m asking you a question. As a published author I don’t like to see people abuse fair use laws, especially when you are trying to pass the material off as coming from your hand.

So, yes, it is certainly a personal attack, and you never answered my question.

Are you Sarah Fitz-Claridge, and if you are not, why are you using her material unattributed?

Great, now it’s internet lawyer time! This is the internet, if you’re not stealing other people’s material, then you are doing it wrong.

546 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:15:33pm

re: #545 idioma

Great, now it’s internet lawyer time! This is the internet, if you’re not stealing other people’s material, then you are doing it wrong.

It’s not easy being 12 folks…

547 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:15:40pm

re: #545 idioma

Great, now it’s internet lawyer time! This is the internet, if you’re not stealing other people’s material, then you are doing it wrong.

And you rail about the evils of religions while you cannot even see the dishonesty that you yourself perpetrate.

Bye.

548 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:16:44pm

re: #547 Walter L. Newton

And you rail about the evils of religions while you cannot even see the dishonesty that you yourself perpetrate.

Bye.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

549 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:21:51pm

re: #524 idioma

Aha, So Mother Theresa was actually evil. She spent her life in the slums of Calcutta to do the devils work caring for the poorest of the poor and the sickest of the sick. OK. Roger that. Boy Am I glad I was here to be enlightened by you today. What about MLK? What was his evil plan?

550 windsagio  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:25:24pm

re: #545 idioma

lol I don’t wanna say you’re not being a douche, but that was pretty good.

551 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:26:20pm

re: #549 Mich-again

Aha, So Mother Theresa was actually evil. She spent her life in the slums of Calcutta to do the devils work caring for the poorest of the poor and the sickest of the sick. OK. Roger that. Boy Am I glad I was here to be enlightened by you today. What about MLK? What was his evil plan?

It’s a mixed bag. Sometimes you get devotion toward good, sometimes you get a murderer that cries “god is great!”. I’d think that in a world without faith we wouldn’t need an MLK to get civil rights - it would be intuitively obvious.

552 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:27:51pm

re: #550 windsagio

lol I don’t wanna say you’re not being a douche, but that was pretty good.

Don’t give me too much credit. That line about stealing on the internet, I stole that line too.

553 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:30:39pm

re: #469 idioma

I guess we should encourage people of faith when they kidnap children then?

No?

Maybe there should be no excuse for such behavior. It’s just a concept I present to you.

No one here is making excuses on the basis of their faith.

554 windsagio  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:31:40pm

re: #552 idioma

of course you did! But that just makes it funny.


On a sidenote, did you expect this thread to end up this way?

555 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:32:12pm

re: #477 idioma

Would this be the same god that caused the ground to shake?

Yeah. That’s the hard part.

556 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:32:21pm

re: #549 Mich-again

Aha, So Mother Theresa was actually evil. She spent her life in the slums of Calcutta to do the devils work caring for the poorest of the poor and the sickest of the sick. OK. Roger that. Boy Am I glad I was here to be enlightened by you today. What about MLK? What was his evil plan?

Mich-
I’ve gone through and read as many of this person’s comments as I could stomach.

The comments are anti-religion in general, morphing from time to time into specific anti-Christianity.

The only thing I can figure is that at some point in its life, something very bad was done to this person in the name of religion (or by a ‘religious” person), and he’s stuck in time at that point in his life, does not have the resources it takes to get past it and move on into being a productive human being. Very sad.

557 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:36:50pm

re: #549 Mich-again

Aha, So Mother Theresa was actually evil. She spent her life in the slums of Calcutta to do the devils work caring for the poorest of the poor and the sickest of the sick. OK. Roger that. Boy Am I glad I was here to be enlightened by you today. What about MLK? What was his evil plan?

Eeks. Don’t ask!!!

When I hear these things, none of it really sticks because it all smells like sour grapes. Pffew.

I will tell you one thing. I know that when someone is terminally ill and near death’s door, it’s not the moral thing to do to keep prolonging their life by what would amount to a few more days or weeks. I’m talking about hospice state, when death is imminent.

558 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:38:03pm

re: #532 idioma

Documentary 2002: Devil’s Playground

The Amish are not a good example.

A documentary about Rumspringa shows something bad about the Amish? Would you care to—elaborate or something?

559 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:38:17pm

re: #554 windsagio

of course you did! But that just makes it funny.

On a sidenote, did you expect this thread to end up this way?

On LGF, I think it’s better to enter without expectation.

560 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:39:20pm

re: #558 SanFranciscoZionist

A documentary about Rumspringa shows something bad about the Amish? Would you care to—elaborate or something?

Raising children to be deprived of knowledge to function in the modern world? Yeah, that’s a problem.

561 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:41:00pm

re: #560 idioma

Raising children to be deprived of knowledge to function in the modern world? Yeah, that’s a problem.

Lots of Amish kids leave the community, and AFAIK, they do fine.

562 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:42:25pm

re: #557 marjoriemoon

Eeks. Don’t ask!!!

When I hear these things, none of it really sticks because it all smells like sour grapes. Pffew.

I will tell you one thing. I know that when someone is terminally ill and near death’s door, it’s not the moral thing to do to keep prolonging their life by what would amount to a few more days or weeks. I’m talking about hospice state, when death is imminent.

I agree with you. And I placed my father in hospice care.
And my Church had no problem with it.

I wasn’t sure whether you were taking a specific swipe at the Catholic church there or just generally anyone who won’t consider hospice care.

563 McSpiff  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:43:47pm

It’s pretty clear at this point that idioma is a poor attempt at trolling. Let’s move on to greener pastures.

564 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:50:17pm

re: #562 reine.de.tout

I agree with you. And I placed my father in hospice care.
And my Church had no problem with it.

I wasn’t sure whether you were taking a specific swipe at the Catholic church there or just generally anyone who won’t consider hospice care.

Yikes! No swipes! I swear!

My father and my aunt died in hospice care. I was there the night of their deaths. It was both my greatest and worst experience.

Upthread the “evils of Mother Theresa” were discussed, one of which mentioned that she withheld antibiotics from a dying child and cared more about sending the soul to God than allowing him to live. To throw that out there as truth, not knowing the situation at all, particularly the child, is irresponsible. From my own experience, when you’re so close to death, they just make you feel comfortable. Nothing to make you better. That’s what hospice is all about.

565 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:57:22pm

re: #564 marjoriemoon

Yikes! No swipes! I swear!

My father and my aunt died in hospice care. I was there the night of their deaths. It was both my greatest and worst experience.

Upthread the “evils of Mother Theresa” were discussed, one of which mentioned that she withheld antibiotics from a dying child and cared more about sending the soul to God than allowing him to live. To throw that out there as truth, not knowing the situation at all, particularly the child, is irresponsible. From my own experience, when you’re so close to death, they just make you feel comfortable. Nothing to make you better. That’s what hospice is all about.

OK. Many folks are unclear on hospice as re: the Catholic Church. We were able to be with my Dad as he died comfortably. The most that could have been done MAY have kept him alive for more than a few more days, in pain. No point to it.

I don’t know what to make of the story he had about Mother Theresa, it was pretty garbled and I didn’t want to read closely enough to get the sense of it. The hatred came through loud and clear, and I thought that was his main message, anyhow.

566 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:04:51pm

re: #272 PT Barnum

Ya know, respect goes both ways, you have to give it to get it. The fact that religion works for someone else doesn’t give them the right to shove it down your throat, but the fact that it doesn’t work for you doesn’t give you the right to say they’re deluded.

Although…saying that someone is deluded for their religious belief is in no way equal to that said belief being “shoved down someone’s throat.” We all have a right (at least in the US) to say how we feel on the matter of religion - but in doing so, there are also consequences to speaking your mind. Namely, there’s going to be at least one person who takes exception to someone else’s opinion.

567 tradewind  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:06:03pm

I am glad that Haiti’s government is concerned about the welfare of its children…… but with thousands of criminals roaming the streets since the jails were sprung after the earthquake, I would think they would have more pressing matters than checking papers with this group that is obviously not ’ trafficking’ in children. They would do better to keep an eye on the UN blue helmets.

568 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:12:03pm

re: #551 idioma

I’d think that in a world without faith we wouldn’t need an MLK to get civil rights - it would be intuitively obvious.

So then, humans are born good but Religioon makes them evil. If there was no Religion, there’d be no evil.

Thats just silly.

569 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:18:36pm

re: #568 Mich-again

So then, humans are born good but Religioon makes them evil. If there was no Religion, there’d be no evil.

Thats just silly.

Of course it’s silly. Religion just points out the evil, although it doesn’t have a monopoly on that.

570 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:20:03pm

re: #567 tradewind

I am glad that Haiti’s government is concerned about the welfare of its children… but with thousands of criminals roaming the streets since the jails were sprung after the earthquake, I would think they would have more pressing matters than checking papers with this group that is obviously not ’ trafficking’ in children. They would do better to keep an eye on the UN blue helmets.

So these people are allowed to walk off with children and no papers…why? Because they’re affiliated with a U.S. church group? I don’t think it’s at all clear that they’re not ‘trafficking’.

571 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:21:06pm

re: #568 Mich-again

So then, humans are born good but Religioon makes them evil. If there was no Religion, there’d be no evil.

Thats just silly.

There’s a vague eighteenth-century ring to it, somehow. Rousseau, vaguely picked up on a freshman philosophy class…

572 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:22:48pm

re: #567 tradewind

I am glad that Haiti’s government is concerned about the welfare of its children… but with thousands of criminals roaming the streets since the jails were sprung after the earthquake, I would think they would have more pressing matters than checking papers with this group that is obviously not ’ trafficking’ in children. They would do better to keep an eye on the UN blue helmets.

Well, out of 33 children, 10 had parents. Nearly half. How do you know the other 33 didn’t have other relatives that didn’t want to part with them, especially after losing so many family members? Maybe one of those children was all an aunt, uncle or cousin had.

There were many people all over the world who were in the process of adopting pre-quake orphan children, but hadn’t completed all the paperwork. They let those go to their new families which I completely understand, but this is something very different.

573 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:24:28pm

I suck at math :) That would be a third of the children in the group had parents and 23 did not.

574 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:28:30pm

re: #568 Mich-again

So then, humans are born good but Religioon makes them evil. If there was no Religion, there’d be no evil.

Thats just silly.

Again, don’t argue the things I never said. That’s just silly.

575 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:36:59pm

re: #568 Mich-again

So then, humans are born good but Religioon makes them evil. If there was no Religion, there’d be no evil.

Thats just silly.

Good people with or without religion will make efforts to do the most good. Bad people with or without religion will do the most harm. Religion doesn’t have a monopoly on good or evil, but religion does have a unique roll in bypassing reality checks. This is a dangerous posture that often leads to mass suffering. We see it in Haiti, but sadly it’s not the only example out there.

576 Bubblehead II  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:41:56pm

re: #9 Charles

Well I was wondering when this was going to be a thread. Some of these people are from the town I live in.

The 10 U.S. Baptists, including people from Eastside Baptist Church in Twin Falls (Idaho)

Detained members of Eastside’s congregation include Pastor Paul Thompson, 43, his son Silas Thompson, 19, and Steve McMullen, 56

Link:

Idahoans to face Haiti judge today: Group’s intentions questioned; pastor speaks up in defense

Idiots.

577 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:45:15pm

re: #574 idioma

Up thread I tried to answer you question about good religious denominations and one of my choices were the Barkers… you didn’t even touch that… I am quite sure they would fit any conditions you had for a religious group that actually follows a near perfect existence.

What about them?

578 KansasMom  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:09:02pm

This is just appalling. re: #567 tradewind

I am glad that Haiti’s government is concerned about the welfare of its children… but with thousands of criminals roaming the streets since the jails were sprung after the earthquake, I would think they would have more pressing matters than checking papers with this group that is obviously not ’ trafficking’ in children. They would do better to keep an eye on the UN blue helmets.

How is taking children out of the country without the proper paperwork and legal adoption/immigration process anything other than trafficking?

As a mother who has adopted (legally, thankyouverymuch) internationally I am appalled by what this group has done. It casts a shadow over my legitimate adoptions.
There are so many horrific rumors in third world countries about Americans stealing babies for use as organ donors. No idea how the rumors started (possibly after incidents like the one in Haiti), but they are pervasive. Americans in Guatemala have been killed after taking pictures of children because villagers feared they intended to steal them.
Scroll down to the “Safety and Security” section in the link below to read the State Dept’s warning to travelers about the baby stealing rumors.
travel.state.gov

579 idioma  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:20:27pm

re: #577 Walter L. Newton

Up thread I tried to answer you question about good religious denominations and one of my choices were the Barkers… you didn’t even touch that… I am quite sure they would fit any conditions you had for a religious group that actually follows a near perfect existence.

What about them?

What about them? Any system based on faith is at the very least a waste of finite existence, at the very worst it provides funds toward unencumbered brutality. Maybe you’re missing my point here: accountability for the actions of these baptists doesn’t end on the island of Haiti. Every person of faith that donated their time and money (though rooted in good intentions) to send people to Haiti in their name, share responsibility in their actions. It is harmful to be so trusting. The price for not being critical of beliefs can be found in every sector of every society. If we don’t like scandals of religion, then we should look at the funding. God is great! But he could really use some cash.

580 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:52:01pm

re: #570 SanFranciscoZionist

So these people are allowed to walk off with children and no papers…why? Because they’re affiliated with a U.S. church group? I don’t think it’s at all clear that they’re not ‘trafficking’.

What does trafficking mean to you? In my lexicon it means something like “trading” for profit. Is anyone suggesting they were going to be selling these children for money?

I have been in a “war” zone when all norms seem to have broken down, so I can imagine how they might have thought they were making a decision for the best in such a situation when they may have thought nobody else could, but the bottom line is that they were stupid.

Last post for tonight.

581 Flavia  Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:21:08pm

I was waiting for something like this - but I honestly thought it would be the US government screwing up in reverse, by trying a huge, massive project and accidentally sweeping non-orphaned children into the net.

I don’t think for one minute that there was any sinister purpose at work here - unless you count not caring whether kids have parents, or their own religion, to begin with. And we’re not even 100% sure that’s what’s going on - tho’, if these people were truly just innocent blunderers, they have no one to blame but themselves for people jumping to the wrong conclusions: missionary outfits are bigotry in action, however well-intentioned those involved think of themselves.

582 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 4:13:40am

re: #233 Floral Giraffe

When you cut your leg, was that the same daughter, who posted to let us know you were OK?

Thanks for remembering that. That was a different one. “Deedee,” the one who posted here, is my daughter from my second marriage. She is six years younger than her half-sister. The girls actually look alike despite having different moms, but Deedee is fully a foot taller, at 6’2”. She is my long-stemmed Texas rose. She is also a lovely blonde but defies various stereotypes by being a doctor of science (PhD- biochemistry)

583 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 6:24:37am

re: #347 idioma

Wow. That was so over the top and uncalled for in the discussion that it truly reveals more about you than the argument. You could posit a few theories here.

1. The reasons you give in the above snarkastic grenade (have you been cribbing from Coulter or what?) assign motives to others that are really motives you have. Name callers tend to accuse others of things they would really do, and of motives they really might have, what’s that called again?

2. You are really deeply religious and are lying to make atheists and/or other non believers look bad. A religious moby?

3. You just need attention. (go somewhere else to get your Id diapers changed if that’s the case)

4. You really are an atheist who has arrived at atheist through faith - underneath it all you still believe in god, and you are weak Kneed in your logic and atheism. You still want to believe and just don’t know it.

5. You are of one religion, and are bigoted to another.

No need to reply since I’m off to work and you’ll not get further followup from me. You might take some time to consider which theory is operative, whether I missed the real one, and then why.

584 elizajane  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 7:54:13am

re: #567 tradewind

I am glad that Haiti’s government is concerned about the welfare of its children… but with thousands of criminals roaming the streets since the jails were sprung after the earthquake, I would think they would have more pressing matters than checking papers with this group that is obviously not ’ trafficking’ in children. They would do better to keep an eye on the UN blue helmets.

You wouldn’t say that if it was your child who’d been carried off by well-meaning do-gooders.

585 idioma  Tue, Feb 2, 2010 6:53:11pm

re: #583 Thanos

Wow. That was so over the top and uncalled for in the discussion that it truly reveals more about you than the argument. You could posit a few theories here.

1. The reasons you give in the above snarkastic grenade (have you been cribbing from Coulter or what?) assign motives to others that are really motives you have. Name callers tend to accuse others of things they would really do, and of motives they really might have, what’s that called again?

2. You are really deeply religious and are lying to make atheists and/or other non believers look bad. A religious moby?

3. You just need attention. (go somewhere else to get your Id diapers changed if that’s the case)

4. You really are an atheist who has arrived at atheist through faith - underneath it all you still believe in god, and you are weak Kneed in your logic and atheism. You still want to believe and just don’t know it.

5. You are of one religion, and are bigoted to another.

No need to reply since I’m off to work and you’ll not get further followup from me. You might take some time to consider which theory is operative, whether I missed the real one, and then why.

1. I’m just here to sharpen my teeth.
2. Apologists squeak when I bite, and that amuses me.
3. I remember as a child making my peers cry because I explained that there is no Santa Claus, old habits die hard.
4. That’s funny. I only believe in things for which there is evidence.
5. Which one(s)?

In closing, you’ve said your piece and then expect no reply, because that way you get to be right? Grow up. Everyone that I disagree with here is just practice. If you want to dance for me too, that’s fine, I’m here for the lolz.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
5 days ago
Views: 143 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 305 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1