Video: IDF Footage of the Gaza Flotilla Raid

Middle East • Views: 9,955

The Israeli Navy boarded a flotilla headed toward Gaza yesterday, leading to a wild melee that ended in several deaths. The IDF is reporting that the “peace activists” planned the violence in advance, and released the following video — clearly showing the “peace activists” attacking the IDF boarding party with a variety of weapons, including firebombs and stun grenades.

Youtube Video

UPDATE at 5/31/10 9:42:35 am:

This video is even clearer:

Youtube Video

Jump to bottom

1041 comments
1 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:30:52am

Truth in images. I love it. Put the lie to the lies, and show the light.

2 efuseakay  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:31:32am

Israel really screwed this up though. They had to know these "peace activists" wouldn't cooperate.

3 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:31:34am

Let's give them a state.

4 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:32:42am

Here's a peace activist, Palestinian style.

5 windsword  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:33:12am

Israel was on the ball on this one. Get it on video, wait for pro-Palestinians to make a fool out of themselves claiming some sort of massacre, release the video exposing their lies. Well played.

6 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:33:29am

Planning the violence in advance:

This past January, a senior Hamas operative in Britain named Muhammad Sawalha, who was involved in launching the previous flotilla, said the next convoy will avoid the type of confrontation that occurred the previous time with Egypt, and that next time, "the confrontation will be directly with the Zionist enemy itself on the high seas."
[Link: www.virtualjerusalem.com...]
7 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:34:15am

re: #6 jaunte

Planning the violence in advance:


It appears the mistake Israels military made was being too gentle. A gunship could have mowed down the attackers.

8 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:34:41am

When the initial terrorist PR loses steam, there's always the fallback headline:

"Israel Attacks Peace Activists: Fifteen Nursing Babies Gunned Down"

9 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:35:26am

re: #7 Rightwingconspirator

However, if they had done that, the PR result would have been worse.

10 philosophus invidius  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:35:35am

Sadly, this video will make zero difference in the degree of international condemnation.

11 cenotaphium  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:35:46am

re: #5 windsword

Israel was on the ball on this one. Get it on video, wait for pro-Palestinians to make a fool out of themselves claiming some sort of massacre, release the video exposing their lies. Well played.

You're forgetting the always helpful "it's a conspiracy" card. Video was doctored, done on a soundstage in Nevada, beamed into our minds by Maritans..

Unfortunately, especially on this topic, believing your lying eyes will be less common than you'd think.

12 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:36:29am

re: #7 Rightwingconspirator

They definitely made a mistake by not using deadly force earlier. If the first few attackers had been killed immediately the attacks would have stopped. It could have saved a lot of lives.

13 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:37:22am

re: #9 jaunte

Oh yes. But that appears to be a no win anyway. "Worse" remains to be defined, given the headlines so far.

14 drcordell  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:37:55am

Someone explain to me why sending commandos onto the deck of the ship in international waters was necessary?

15 windsword  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:37:57am
The Free Gaza Movement, one of the groups sponsoring the flotilla, disputed Israel's claim of violence by people aboard the ships.

"At about 4:30 am, Israeli commandos dropped from a helicopter onto deck of Turkish ship, immediately opened fire on unarmed civilians," said a post on the group's Twitter page.


Worst part is, we're not going to see backpedaling. They'll just rely on the fact that the kind of people following their Twitter aren't exactly looking for truth.

16 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:38:22am

Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers

Youtube Video
17 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:38:30am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

They definitely made a mistake by not using deadly force earlier. If the first few attackers had been killed immediately the attacks would have stopped. It could have saved a lot of lives.

Quit with that crazy talk.

18 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:38:59am

re: #14 drcordell

Someone explain to me why sending commandos onto the deck of the ship in international waters was necessary?

They are in a war zone.

19 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:39:26am

re: #4 Cato the Elder

Here's a peace activist, Palestinian style.

But ... but ... that's a Ceremonial® knife. He was going to perform a ... a ... circumcision.

20 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:39:42am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

They definitely made a mistake by not using deadly force earlier. If the first few attackers had been killed immediately the attacks would have stopped. It could have saved a lot of lives.

Now I hope we do not get an over-reaction from anyone. Not a missile barrage from Lebanon nor a ship sunk. I would like to see the flotilla armada of BS get turned around. If it takes shots across the bow fine.

21 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:39:58am

re: #14 drcordell

Someone explain to me why sending commandos onto the deck of the ship in international waters was necessary?

I posted this in the last thread:

Israel tried for days prior to reach a "reasonable" agreement. They act according to international maritime law. These boats were hostile entities, and were looking for a PR incident.

I read somewhere the reasoning for Israel intercepting the ships.
The logic is two-fold:
1) Israel will get bad PR either way. If the ships get to Gaza, activists pronounce on the evils of Israel. If Israel intercepts the ships they get yelled at too.

2) They let the ships go through the first 8 times. Last time they intercepted the ship. This time it was much bigger with far more people. They decided that if they left these "humanitarian ships" go unchecked, eventually weapons smuggling will start happening. They may as well take the inevitable PR loss and keep the blockade in force.

As well, they had the legal rights, according to the San Remo Manual on international maritime law.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

22 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:40:25am

re: #14 drcordell

Given the flotilla mission it's obvious.

23 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:40:46am

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers

[Video]

It's painful to watch those soldiers fighting for their lives armed only with paintball guns.

24 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:41:09am

Another excellent video of the above moments from a close-up angle:

Youtube Video

(Just released)

25 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:41:30am

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers

[Video]

Beat me to it.

26 cenotaphium  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:43:01am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

It's painful to watch those soldiers fighting for their lives armed only with paintball guns.

They had sidearms too? But not the ROE to use them at first. I'm guessing that's what you mean?

27 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:43:13am

re: #25 Joo-LiZ

;)

28 drcordell  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:43:19am

re: #21 Joo-LiZ

I posted this in the last thread:

Israel tried for days prior to reach a "reasonable" agreement. They act according to international maritime law. These boats were hostile entities, and were looking for a PR incident.

I read somewhere the reasoning for Israel intercepting the ships.
The logic is two-fold:
1) Israel will get bad PR either way. If the ships get to Gaza, activists pronounce on the evils of Israel. If Israel intercepts the ships they get yelled at too.

2) They let the ships go through the first 8 times. Last time they intercepted the ship. This time it was much bigger with far more people. They decided that if they left these "humanitarian ships" go unchecked, eventually weapons smuggling will start happening. They may as well take the inevitable PR loss and keep the blockade in force.

As well, they had the legal rights, according to the San Remo Manual on international maritime law.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Right. That all makes sense. I just can't wrap my head around how they possibly thought that this would turn out well. If you gave me a photocopy of this plan the night before it happened, I could have predicted this result almost to a T.

29 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:43:39am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

It's painful to watch those soldiers fighting for their lives armed only with paintball guns.

It seems to me they did not anticipate the level of violence they would encounter (from "peace activists").

30 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:44:03am

re: #26 cenotaphium

Watch the close up video. All they have are the paintball guns.

31 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:44:30am

re: #24 Joo-LiZ

It is just amazing nobody on the helicopter opened up on the attackers. One very important tactical guideline was ignore-The landing zone must be secured before the men start to slide down. We just saw why this is critical. Incredibly brave to be the third or fourth man down the rope!

32 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:45:15am

re: #28 drcordell

Right. That all makes sense. I just can't wrap my head around how they possibly thought that this would turn out well. If you gave me a photocopy of this plan the night before it happened, I could have predicted this result almost to a T.

Yeah, that one I'm kind of at a loss with as well.

On the other hand, how many options did they really have.

It would be nice if all the 'peace activists' of the world could be talked out of violent confrontations, but in reality violence occurs. They went aboard expecting to use riot-control mechanisms, NOT violent force.

Violence only started after the soldiers were attacked.

33 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:45:32am

How many of the dead were IDF?

34 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:45:37am

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Those would be "mace" ball guns, we see that used here in riot control. They went armed as riot police not soldiers.

35 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:45:47am

re: #29 Racer X

It seems to me they did not anticipate the level of violence they would encounter (from "peace activists").

It's also painful to watch the Peace Protesters hold the rope and attacking each soldier as they came down. The IDF made some very bad decisions by continuing to send guys down on the deck just to be picked off.

36 windsword  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:46:11am

re: #28 drcordell

Right. That all makes sense. I just can't wrap my head around how they possibly thought that this would turn out well. If you gave me a photocopy of this plan the night before it happened, I could have predicted this result almost to a T.


Keep in mind that the other five ships went peacefully. So it DID work without a hitch most of the time.

37 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:46:11am

re: #33 Racer X

How many of the dead were IDF?

No soldiers were killed - seven were injured.

38 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:46:30am

re: #33 Racer X

How many of the dead were IDF?

None. 6 IDF wounded, several very seriously, but a couple hours ago it was announced that their wounds will not be life-threatening.

39 drcordell  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:46:41am

re: #32 Joo-LiZ

Yeah, that one I'm kind of at a loss with as well.

On the other hand, how many options did they really have.

It would be nice if all the 'peace activists' of the world could be talked out of violent confrontations, but in reality violence occurs. They went aboard expecting to use riot-control mechanisms, NOT violent force.

Violence only started after the soldiers were attacked.

You do exactly what a blockade is meant to do. Block off the port. Deny access. Haven't figured out why physically boarding the vessel was necessary at all.

40 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:46:46am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

I imagine the thought process behind continuing to send guys down was, "Go help them!"

41 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:47:11am

re: #37 Charles

No soldiers were killed - seven were injured.

That is little short of miraculous.

Are the ships stopped or still coming? Anyone heard?

42 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:47:13am

re: #33 Racer X

How many of the dead were IDF?

There is one soldier in critical condition.

43 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:47:32am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

It's also painful to watch the Peace Protesters hold the rope and attacking each soldier as they came down. The IDF made some very bad decisions by continuing to send guys down on the deck just to be picked off.

Another perspective though:

First guy went down, they want to get him back. Would you have just left him on the boat to the tender mercy of these peace activists?

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:47:40am

Bricks thrown through the windows of the building in downtown SF housing the Israeli consulate.

45 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:47:49am

re: #41 Rightwingconspirator

That is little short of miraculous.

Are the ships stopped or still coming? Anyone heard?

Five of the ships surrendered peacefully.

46 PhillyPretzel  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:48:22am

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh geez that is not good.

47 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:48:25am

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

Bricks thrown through the windows of the building in downtown SF housing the Israeli consulate.

- Cheered Hamas

48 efuseakay  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:48:32am

re: #5 windsword

Israel was on the ball on this one. Get it on video, wait for pro-Palestinians to make a fool out of themselves claiming some sort of massacre, release the video exposing their lies. Well played.

These videos won't change any minds.

To the "peace activists", Israel should have never boarded the boat to begin with.

That's where they set this whole thing up as a win/win for them, and a fail/fail for Israel, regardless of their actions.

Hopefully Israel will lock up a bunch of these pricks and identify them. No doubt there are a few IJ/Hamas/etc. that were aboard.

49 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:49:20am

re: #39 drcordell

You do exactly what a blockade is meant to do. Block off the port. Deny access. Haven't figured out why physically boarding the vessel was necessary at all.

One of the main maritime smuggling methods is that boats travel near the shore and throw containers overboard. Gazan fishermen then move out and collect the items. For this reason, the blockade has to be some distance from the shoreline.

As well, how do you physically block the ships? You end up either in a race against them, or you risk collisions and boats sinking. They probably decided the risk of sinking a ship was worse than taking over the ship

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:49:47am

re: #2 efuseakay

Israel really screwed this up though. They had to know these "peace activists" wouldn't cooperate.

I don't know if they expected anything like this. Like I said upthread, previous groups haven't pulled anything like this.

51 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:50:20am

re: #43 Joo-LiZ

Another perspective though:

First guy went down, they want to get him back. Would you have just left him on the boat to the tender mercy of these peace activists?

Oh, yeah, they're peace activists. But no one has called them "non-violent".
;P

52 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:51:07am

re: #39 drcordell

You do exactly what a blockade is meant to do. Block off the port. Deny access. Haven't figured out why physically boarding the vessel was necessary at all.

How do you think a blockade works, you nitwit?

You interdict ships at sea and board and inspect them for contraband. That's how it's done.

53 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:51:11am

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

Bricks thrown through the windows of the building in downtown SF housing the Israeli consulate.

Shit.

54 political lunatic  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:51:21am

Can someone here explain to me why Israel is supposed to be the "good guys" in this? I really want to know.

55 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:51:47am

Well this is not good, at all.

If the people living in Gaza really wanted peace with Israel there are other ways to obtain it. This action was meant to inflame tensions and prolong the pain.

56 drcordell  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:53:03am

re: #52 Cato the Elder

How do you think a blockade works, you nitwit?

You interdict ships at sea and board and inspect them for contraband. That's how it's done.

I understand how it works, shitstain. But there are other alternatives to helicoptering commandos onto the deck of a ship in the middle of the night in international waters.

57 ryannon  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:53:15am

re: #14 drcordell

Someone explain to me why sending commandos onto the deck of the ship in international waters was necessary?

Holy shit, you just keep repeating and not reading:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Sec. V (a)
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

58 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:53:29am

re: #39 drcordell

In error. Brilliant if it had worked. Tragic now.

59 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:53:37am

re: #54 political lunatic

Can someone here explain to me why Israel is supposed to be the "good guys" in this? I really want to know.

Care to explain why Israel is the bad guy in this? I really want to know.

60 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:54:19am

From the Muqata blog:

6:30 PM Updates from IDF Radio:

- None of the wounded IDF commandos currently have life-threatening injuries (thanks to surgery, treatment)

- There are about 30 wounded flotilla terrorists in Israeli hospitals now.

- A flotilla ship is being brought to the Ashdod port, under heavy guard. There are reportedly over 600 on board, and they don't want to be arrested, "quietly"

Another side of the story: The boats have been subdued. Israel is bringing the ships to Ashdod port, and is detaining activists. They have the option to go home, and leave it all behind them, or be detained.

Most of the activists are refusing to co-operate. They through their passports overboard, and are saying they want to be put back on board and head to Gaza.

That's a side of this that may turn more noteworthy soon, if they really refuse to co-operate.

61 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:55:16am

re: #54 political lunatic

Can someone here explain to me why Israel is supposed to be the "good guys" in this? I really want to know.

why Israel... ? I don't really understand the question.

62 drcordell  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:55:36am

re: #57 ryannon

Holy shit, you just keep repeating and not reading:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Sec. V (a)
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

Are you fucking daft? The legality of the blockade is the issue being contested here. I'm not a goddamn retard, I read what you posted, and acknowledged it. And it's a very fine law that you've quoted. Now manage to find a way to wrap your head around the fact that the issue at stake is the legality of the blockade itself.

63 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:56:28am

re: #60 Joo-LiZ

There are about 30 wounded flotilla terrorists in Israeli hospitals now.

Terrorists indeed.

64 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:56:37am

re: #60 Joo-LiZ

From the Muqata blog:

Another side of the story: The boats have been subdued. Israel is bringing the ships to Ashdod port, and is detaining activists. They have the option to go home, and leave it all behind them, or be detained.

Most of the activists are refusing to co-operate. They through their passports overboard, and are saying they want to be put back on board and head to Gaza.

That's a side of this that may turn more noteworthy soon, if they really refuse to co-operate.

So. you toss your passport overboard, and expect to a) enter Israel legally, and then b) re-enter your country of origin without a problem?
Kee-riced, these people are stupid, Israel will run their fingerprints and ID them.

65 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:56:57am

re: #62 drcordell

Are you fucking daft? The legality of the blockade is the issue being contested here. I'm not a goddamn retard, I read what you posted, and acknowledged it. And it's a very fine law that you've quoted. Now manage to find a way to wrap your head around the fact that the issue at stake is the legality of the blockade itself.

Care to look it up yourself?

There are laws surrounding all of these things. The legal system recognizes wars occur, blockades are necessary, and are not designed to make the waging of war wholly unlawful.

66 political lunatic  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:57:14am

re: #59 Gang of One

What? Where did I say that either side was good or bad? I was being serious.

67 jayzee  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:57:42am

re: #56 drcordell

I understand how it works, shitstain. But there are other alternatives to helicoptering commandos onto the deck of a ship in the middle of the night in international waters.

Such as? Does the USCG wait for drug runners to pull into the port of Miami before boarding and seizing the ships? But Israel needs to right?

68 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:57:57am

Is there any chance we can argue this in the absence of a flame war? At least reserve the name calling for the two sides in the battle.

69 efuseakay  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:58:02am

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but this "peace activist" group made statements prior to all of this happening. Israel had to know they wouldn't just let them board the ship peacefully.

70 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:58:12am

re: #66 political lunatic

What? Where did I say that either side was good or bad? I was being serious.

It seems to me that you are implying that Israel is the bad guy.

71 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:58:12am

re: #66 political lunatic

What? Where did I say that either side was good or bad? I was being serious.

I still don't understand your question. "why Israel is supposed to be the 'good guys'"?

72 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:58:34am

re: #14 drcordell

Someone explain to me why sending commandos onto the deck of the ship in international waters was necessary?

To turn around a ship that had openly declared its intention of running a blockade.

73 ryannon  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:58:45am

re: #39 drcordell

You do exactly what a blockade is meant to do. Block off the port. Deny access. Haven't figured out why physically boarding the vessel was necessary at all.

Just roll into Gaza, secure the port and roll out again once the cargo has been inspected. With the Gazans lined up along the road holding flowers and waving Israeli flags.

74 drcordell  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:58:53am

The USCG certainly doesn't fire upon ships in international waters.

75 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:58:56am

re: #66 political lunatic

How is anyone to catch you up on a half century of events that all tie right in?

76 abolitionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:59:01am

From last year..
Israeli Navy Intercepts 500 tons of weapons from Iran and meant for the Hezbollah - YouTube video

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:59:04am

re: #19 Gang of One

But ... but ... that's a Ceremonial® knife. He was going to perform a ... a ... circumcision.

The local mohel has something...smaller.

78 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:59:04am

re: #68 Rightwingconspirator

Is there any chance we can argue this in the absence of a flame war? At least reserve the name calling for the two sides in the battle.

I'ma go get popcorn. This thread is going to get good.

79 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:59:34am

re: #74 drcordell

The USCG certainly doesn't fire upon ships in international waters.

The US is not surrounded by hostiles?

80 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:59:37am

re: #56 drcordell

I understand how it works, shitstain. But there are other alternatives to helicoptering commandos onto the deck of a ship in the middle of the night in international waters.

Sure: Gunfire, torpedoes, bombs, unguided rockets, guided missiles, ramming.

A boarding party armed with paintball guns was probably the least violent and destructive alternative to simply allowing the ships to continue. The latter would quickly have led to the collapse of the blockade, with unfettered arms shipments as the inevitable (and intended) result.

81 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:59:53am

re: #67 jayzee

Such as? Does the USCG wait for drug runners to pull into the port of Miami before boarding and seizing the ships? But Israel needs to right?

Just another example of Israel being held to a double standard.

82 efuseakay  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:59:54am

re: #72 SanFranciscoZionist

How do you actually do that? Jedi powers?

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:00:36am

A Brutal Ambush At Sea

84 political lunatic  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:00:37am

re: #61 Joo-LiZ

I just want to know who's right in this war and why. I really hate senseless attacks like this by either side.

85 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:00:39am

re: #74 drcordell

The USCG certainly doesn't fire upon ships in international waters.

Israel didn't fire on the ship.

86 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:00:42am

re: #74 drcordell

The USCG certainly doesn't fire upon ships in international waters.

... unless it's troops are attacked while boarding a boat.

87 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:01:17am

re: #74 drcordell

Yes we do. If we tell them to heave to and they don't stop, we will shoot across their bow. If that doesn't work we'll shoot to disable the engines. Been there, done that.

88 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:01:33am

re: #56 drcordell

I understand how it works, shitstain. But there are other alternatives to helicoptering commandos onto the deck of a ship in the middle of the night in international waters.

Heh. That's the loving word I generally use for Jiminy Carter. It will be fun to see what he has to say about this, being an old Navy man.

89 windsword  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:01:36am

re: #82 efuseakay

How do you actually do that? Jedi powers?

That's Jew-di powers, thank you.

90 drcordell  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:01:38am

re: #65 Joo-LiZ

Care to look it up yourself?

There are laws surrounding all of these things. The legal system recognizes wars occur, blockades are necessary, and are not designed to make the waging of war wholly unlawful.

Israel is a non-signatory to the UN Convention on the Law of the Seas, so that certainly makes things more complicated. In essence what I have read is that basically blockades are seen as legally justified during a time of war. And that blockades are legal only if you simply stop war materials from being transported.

So, basically every legal justification for the blockade is some sort of contested definition or phrase. The term "war" is obviously a quagmire, as is the definition of what constitutes war materials.

91 ryannon  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:01:45am

re: #62 drcordell

Are you fucking daft? The legality of the blockade is the issue being contested here. I'm not a goddamn retard, I read what you posted, and acknowledged it. And it's a very fine law that you've quoted. Now manage to find a way to wrap your head around the fact that the issue at stake is the legality of the blockade itself.

Or legality of Israel, for that matter?

92 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:01:47am

re: #84 political lunatic

I just want to know who's right in this war and why. I really hate senseless attacks like this by either side.

You are really asking that question?

93 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:02:31am

re: #66 political lunatic

What? Where did I say that either side was good or bad? I was being serious.

Your failure to take the "right side" puts you on the wrong side. Israel's taking of the flotilla in international waters and the killing of several activists is sure to be condemned by the international community. Those here defending its actions will do so to the end. Those questioning the need to take military action on boats whose publicly stated mission was one of aid to Gaza will be accused of supporting terror.

This is an emotional, and not a rational, debate.

94 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:02:33am

re: #76 abolitionist

From last year..
Israeli Navy Intercepts 500 tons of weapons from Iran and meant for the Hezbollah - YouTube video

NO!

*shudder*

The "peace activists" would never smuggle weapons.

95 pragmatist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:02:48am

This goes back to the original mistake of the Israelis leaving Gaza unilaterally. The tiny bit of good publicity for that move has been massively out weighed by the opportunity give to those wishing to dismember the State of Israel.

My heart goes out to the Israeli commandos who were brutally attacked by the so-called 'peace activists'. The videos are clear to those who will look with an objective eye.

Yet we all know the vast majority of the world will condemn Israel. And now there will multiple acts of violence committed against Jews elsewhere. And massive protests against Israel. It is all pure anti-Semitism as there was nothing like this at all after Sri Lanka brutally put down the Tamil insurgents.

All because it seemed like giving up Gaza 'was a good idea at the time.'
Yet another example of the "Law of unintended consequences."

96 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:02:56am

re: #74 drcordell

Oh yes it does.

Youtube Video
98 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:03:27am

re: #54 political lunatic

Can someone here explain to me why Israel is supposed to be the "good guys" in this? I really want to know.

No idea. The guys armed with pipes and knives, attacking the commandos sent to turn them away from a war zone seem like likelier heroes to me.

//

99 jayzee  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:03:33am

re: #62 drcordell

Are you fucking daft? The legality of the blockade is the issue being contested here. I'm not a goddamn retard, I read what you posted, and acknowledged it. And it's a very fine law that you've quoted. Now manage to find a way to wrap your head around the fact that the issue at stake is the legality of the blockade itself.

The legality of the blockade? Who does Gaza belong to? It is not a sovereign nation and access to ports of entry are still under Israeli and Egyptian control. The terrorists that control Gaza refuse to recognize Israel therefore nullifying any shared sovereignty of the ports there may have been under a peace accord. There is no violation of international law, just empty slogans that it is.

100 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:03:34am

re: #74 drcordell

The USCG certainly doesn't fire upon ships in international waters.

Given similar circumstances, I don't think they'd hesitate. And, I don't think they'd hesitate to mess up a crew that attacks them.

101 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:03:49am

re: #43 Joo-LiZ

The commander should have been watching after the first one or two guys went down the others should have been sent in with deadly force.

102 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:03:53am

re: #84 political lunatic

I just want to know who's right in this war and why. I really hate senseless attacks like this by either side.

Well, that requires a long and frank discussion.

The trouble is, everyone can quibble with specific actions taken by either side. "I thought that was harsh, I wouldn't have done that". etc.

When you bottom line it, Israel is actively defending itself by preventing weapons smuggling into territories directly adjacent to it. Gaza is a conflict zone, and Israel has a legal right to impose a blockade against their enemies. Hamas openly calls for Israel's destruction and refuses to accept its existence.

If Hamas wanted peace, Israel would leave Gaza alone. To me, that alone makes Israel the 'good guys' and Hamas the 'bad guys'.

103 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:03:58am

re: #89 windsword

That is over the line.

104 Velvet Elvis  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:04:01am

In the end this was an attack on a vessel of a NATO state (Turkey) by a non NATO state (Israel). All NATO states are obliged to respond as if it was an attack on them personally.

I support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish homeland, but they fucked up here.

105 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:04:14am

re: #84 political lunatic
Are you not paying attention to the last 60 years? The countries surrounding Israel have tried to wipe them out 5 times at least.

106 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:04:42am

re: #87 pingjockey

Yes we do. If we tell them to heave to and they don't stop, we will shoot across their bow. If that doesn't work we'll shoot to disable the engines. Been there, done that.

That would have been a better response. Disable the boats, then tow them into port. No marbles thrown, no paintballs wasted, no soldiers wounded, and no activists killed.

107 jayzee  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:04:55am

re: #74 drcordell

The USCG certainly doesn't fire upon ships in international waters.

Bullshit, if they don't fire it's because they are allowed to board.

108 philosophus invidius  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:04:59am

re: #24 Joo-LiZ

Another excellent video of the above moments from a close-up angle:


[Video](Just released)

A nice touch: the white flag flying in background while the soldier is being mercilessly beaten with metal bars.

109 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:05:00am

re: #93 darthstar

Your failure to take the "right side" puts you on the wrong side. Israel's taking of the flotilla in international waters and the killing of several activists is sure to be condemned by the international community. Those here defending its actions will do so to the end. Those questioning the need to take military action on boats whose publicly stated mission was one of aid to Gaza will be accused of supporting terror.

This is an emotional, and not a rational, debate.

Depends who is doing the debating.

110 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:05:32am

re: #93 darthstar

Your failure to take the "right side" puts you on the wrong side. Israel's taking of the flotilla in international waters and the killing of several activists is sure to be condemned by the international community. Those here defending its actions will do so to the end. Those questioning the need to take military action on boats whose publicly stated mission was one of aid to Gaza will be accused of supporting terror.

This is an emotional, and not a rational, debate.

And I would say that it's not rational at all to expect Israel to allow uninspected shipments into Gaza. Period. Have you forgotten how many ships full of weapons have been intercepted by Israel in the past?

All those guns, bullets, and explosives come in from somewhere. Israel is acting completely rationally to insist on controlling the ships that get into Gaza. Gaza is controlled by a terrorist group that openly calls for the destruction of Israel.

111 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:05:35am

re: #80 shiplord kirel

A boarding party armed with paintball guns was probably the least violent and destructive alternative to simply allowing the ships to continue. The latter would quickly have led to the collapse of the blockade, with unfettered arms shipments as the inevitable (and intended) result.

Not hard to wrap your head around this at all.

112 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:05:43am

re: #93 darthstar

Your failure to take the "right side" puts you on the wrong side. Israel's taking of the flotilla in international waters and the killing of several activists is sure to be condemned by the international community. Those here defending its actions will do so to the end. Those questioning the need to take military action on boats whose publicly stated mission was one of aid to Gaza will be accused of supporting terror.

This is an emotional, and not a rational, debate.

Bullshit.

113 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:05:44am

re: #74 drcordell

The USCG certainly doesn't fire upon ships in international waters.

If the ship was owned and operated by known terrorists we certainly would.

114 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:06:01am

re: #101 Killgore Trout

The commander should have been watching after the first one or two guys went down the others should have been sent in with deadly force.

No soldiers were killed. Dozens of activists were. Isn't that deadly enough?

115 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:06:04am

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

Bricks thrown through the windows of the building in downtown SF housing the Israeli consulate.

Someone from the administration needs to step up and decry any retaliation on Jews.

116 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:06:23am

re: #104 Conservative Moonbat

In the end this was an attack on a vessel of a NATO state (Turkey) by a non NATO state (Israel). All NATO states are obliged to respond as if it was an attack on them personally.

I support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish homeland, but they fucked up here.

The "attack" was not an attack, the "Turkish vessel" was not Turkish, and thank you so much for your support of Israel's existence. I'm sure Bibi will be writing you a personal note any day now.

117 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:06:25am

re: #74 drcordell

The USCG certainly doesn't fire upon ships in international waters.

Ah, I see you're just being an asshole. I thought you wanted serious debate there for a second. My mistake.

118 sattv4u2  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:07:12am

re: #24 Joo-LiZ

Another excellent video of the above moments from a close-up angle:

[Video]

(Just released)

Those were just "Peace Sticks" the "activists" were using

Welcoming the IDF on-board!!
//

119 Velvet Elvis  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:07:15am

re: #113 Killgore Trout

If the ship was owned and operated by known terrorists we certainly would.

Since when are fellow NATO signatories terrorists?

120 sattv4u2  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:07:37am

re: #117 Killgore Trout

Ah, I see you're just being an asshole. I thought you wanted serious debate there for a second. My mistake.

You expected better?

Shame on you!

121 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:07:40am

re: #84 political lunatic

I just want to know who's right in this war and why. I really hate senseless attacks like this by either side.

Let's begin with Nekama's Troll Hammer.

If that's too much for you, here's a picture.

122 windsword  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:07:45am

re: #103 Rightwingconspirator

That is over the line.


What, making a pun? It's not like Jew is a slur, although some people certainly treat it that way.

123 cenotaphium  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:08:02am

re: #81 MandyManners

Just another example of Israel being held to a double standard.

I think it's the same double edged sword that hamstrings other embattled democracies. We're supposed to be the moral highground. That means both being criticized more when we succeed and being pummled extra hard when we fail. Since Israel is the lone champion of that hill in the region, even a well-intentioned eye will seem to be picking on it.

This in a best case scenario not factoring in antisemitism.

124 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:08:09am

re: #114 darthstar

No soldiers were killed. Dozens of activists were. Isn't that deadly enough?

ACTIVISTS??? They are terrorists and terrrorist sympathizers.

125 drcordell  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:08:21am

Off to go drink more on this fine Memorial Day weekend. My closing point is this: I think Israel handled the situation extremely poorly here, and it's to their own detriment. Yes, the blowback they will get over this event is disproportionate, but they should have been cognizant of that from the beginning. The entire goal of the activists was to foment a media shitstorm, and they've accomplished it successfully.

No shit your commandos are going to get physically attacked when they paratroop onto the deck of a ship in international waters in the middle of the night. What did they fucking expect?

126 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:08:27am

re: #115 The Shadow Do

Someone from the administration needs to step up and decry any retaliation on Jews.

Don't hold your breath.

127 Velvet Elvis  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:08:46am

re: #116 Cato the Elder

The "attack" was not an attack, the "Turkish vessel" was not Turkish, and thank you so much for your support of Israel's existence. I'm sure Bibi will be writing you a personal note any day now.

Well, if Turkish television is claiming it to be such it's hard to dispute that.

128 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:08:49am

re: #106 darthstar
It wouldn't matter either way. The State of Israel would still be the evil Zionist state. But that may have worked better. However, you have to have daylight to do stuff like that and the asshats may have been to close to Gaza by then to try that. Don't know. It is a very tricky deal trying to put rounds into just the stern of a ship to disable the engines.

129 alexknyc  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:08:55am

re: #102 Joo-LiZ

Well, that requires a long and frank discussion.

The trouble is, everyone can quibble with specific actions taken by either side. "I thought that was harsh, I wouldn't have done that". etc.

When you bottom line it, Israel is actively defending itself by preventing weapons smuggling into territories directly adjacent to it. Gaza is a conflict zone, and Israel has a legal right to impose a blockade against their enemies. Hamas openly calls for Israel's destruction and refuses to accept its existence.

If Hamas wanted peace, Israel would leave Gaza alone. To me, that alone makes Israel the 'good guys' and Hamas the 'bad guys'.

If Hamas laid down their arms, there would be no more violence.

If Israel laid down their arms, there would be no more Israel.

130 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:09:07am

re: #74 drcordell

The USCG certainly doesn't fire upon ships in international waters.

Wrong

131 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:09:19am

re: #114 darthstar

No soldiers were killed. Dozens of activists were. Isn't that deadly enough?

Why do you insist on calling them peace activists, Darth?

132 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:09:33am

re: #93 darthstar

Those questioning the need to take military action on boats whose publicly stated mission was one of aid to Gaza will be accused of supporting terror.

Do you make a similar argument when Egypt enforces its blockade of smuggling? Perhaps Hamas should merely state it's bringing baby formula and children's toys into Gaza.

133 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:09:43am

re: #114 darthstar

No soldiers were killed. Dozens of activists were. Isn't that deadly enough?

Yes, if you are stupid enough to assault armed men the death toll will be lopsided.
Go ahead and launch an assault on your local police station or military base and you'll get the same result.

134 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:09:48am

re: #122 windsword

Maybe I took it wrong. It struck me as a pun with a racist insult. If I'm wrong I sincerely apologize.

135 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:09:49am

re: #93 darthstar

Your failure to take the "right side" puts you on the wrong side. Israel's taking of the flotilla in international waters and the killing of several activists is sure to be condemned by the international community. Those here defending its actions will do so to the end. Those questioning the need to take military action on boats whose publicly stated mission was one of aid to Gaza will be accused of supporting terror.

This is an emotional, and not a rational, debate.

Fuck the international community. What the fuck is that, anyway? The international community would calmly stand by and watch Israel get dismembered and destroyed.

And if you believe the "publicly stated" mission of these people, you are a true moron. The result they got was the one they were counting on.

136 sattv4u2  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:10:09am

re: #127 Conservative Moonbat

Well, if Turkish television is claiming it to be such it's hard to dispute that.

I see. So if Israeli TV claims it's NOT such, does that negate what "Turkish TV" states?

137 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:10:11am

re: #115 The Shadow Do

Someone from the administration needs to step up and decry any retaliation on Jews.

/Crickets ...

FTFY

138 Velvet Elvis  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:10:13am

Oh screw this, I swore I'd never get involved in any Israel/Palestine debates on LGF when I registered. I'm going to stop now.

139 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:10:31am

re: #114 darthstar

No soldiers were killed. Dozens of activists were. Isn't that deadly enough?

Nine is not dozens

140 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:10:39am

Obama: Important to learn facts behind Israel Navy raid

The White House said President Barack Obama expressed "deep regret" over the loss of life during the Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship and cited "the importance of learning all the facts and circumstances" behind the incident."

141 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:11:01am

re: #125 drcordell

Off to go drink more on this fine Memorial Day weekend

I'd attribute your Jew-hating bullshit to booze but, it's not the first time.

142 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:11:02am

re: #127 Conservative Moonbat

Well, if Turkish television is claiming it to be such it's hard to dispute that.

Right, Turkish teevee. I'm impressed.

143 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:11:56am

re: #125 drcordell

Off to go drink more on this fine Memorial Day weekend. My closing point is this: I think Israel handled the situation extremely poorly here, and it's to their own detriment. Yes, the blowback they will get over this event is disproportionate, but they should have been cognizant of that from the beginning. The entire goal of the activists was to foment a media shitstorm, and they've accomplished it successfully.

No shit your commandos are going to get physically attacked when they paratroop onto the deck of a ship in international waters in the middle of the night. What did they fucking expect?

Peace activists you moron

144 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:12:03am

re: #140 Killgore Trout

Contrary to the headline, I think the flotilla itself was the 'raid.'

145 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:12:13am

re: #122 windsword

What, making a pun? It's not like Jew is a slur, although some people certainly treat it that way.

Un down dinged as well.

146 cenotaphium  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:12:29am

re: #124 MandyManners

ACTIVISTS??? They are terrorists and terrrorist sympathizers.

re: #131 Gang of One

Why do you insist on calling them peace activists, Darth?

Obviously the ones on the ship with the casualties weren't all peaceful. But it'd be wrong to assume everyone involved is a "terrorist sympathizer". People do the wrong thing for the right intentions. It's not right to portray them as malicious if they're misguided.

147 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:12:35am

re: #110 Charles

And I would say that it's not rational at all to expect Israel to allow uninspected shipments into Gaza. Period. Have you forgotten how many ships full of weapons have been intercepted by Israel in the past?

All those guns, bullets, and explosives come in from somewhere. Israel is acting completely rationally to insist on controlling the ships that get into Gaza. Gaza is controlled by a terrorist group that openly calls for the destruction of Israel.

Agreed, but this flotilla wasn't trying to sneak in by the dark of night loaded with weapons, and they clearly communicated that fact. One non-violent solution I can think of off the top of my head would be to send one or two inspectors to board the boats at sea to inspect the cargo. Simple enough, and not threatening. The overkill of this mission is going to hurt Israel internationally, especially if they find no contraband on board.

148 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:12:58am

re: #127 Conservative Moonbat

Well, if Turkish television is claiming it to be such it's hard to dispute that.

Just because Turkey's in NATO does not mean that NATO will back the terrorists on those boats.

149 ryannon  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:13:12am

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

No idea. The guys peace activists armed with pipes and knives, attacking the commandos sent to turn them away from a war zone seem like likelier heroes to me.

//

Fixed.

150 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:13:48am

re: #138 Conservative Moonbat

Oh screw this, I swore I'd never get involved in any Israel/Palestine debates on LGF when I registered. I'm going to stop now.

That's what I live for.

151 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:13:52am

Cynthia McKinney Mourns the Dead of the Freedom Flotilla to Gaza

152 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:14:03am

re: #132 solomonpanting

Do you make a similar argument when Egypt enforces its blockade of smuggling? Perhaps Hamas should merely state it's bringing baby formula and children's toys into Gaza.

Remember when Egypt gassed the tunnels?

153 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:14:39am

re: #147 darthstar

Agreed, but this flotilla wasn't trying to sneak in by the dark of night loaded with weapons, and they clearly communicated that fact. One non-violent solution I can think of off the top of my head would be to send one or two inspectors to board the boats at sea to inspect the cargo. Simple enough, and not threatening. The overkill of this mission is going to hurt Israel internationally, especially if they find no contraband on board.

Because the "activists" would allow them on board? We have to deal with the reality of the fact that these people were bent on non-cooperation. If they were reasonable people, there would be no need for a blockade in the first place.

As I stated upthread, part of the logic is that yes, it's bad PR to deal with the flotilla, but it's also bad PR to let them through, AND it opens the possibility of future ships being used for smuggling.

I do not think the Israelis expected anything near the level of violence that occurred.

154 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:15:01am

re: #131 Gang of One

Why do you insist on calling them peace activists, Darth?

I didn't call them "peace activists"...I called them "activists"...but their stated mission was one of aid, not combat. Call it a PR stunt if you want, but it wasn't a terrorist attack on Israel, and they weren't smuggling weapons.

155 windsword  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:15:03am

Let's be honest. If Israel had done something different with less or more fatalities, we'd all be sitting around talking about how obvious it was that it would turn out bad, and how Israel should have done something else. More than one of us would suggest landing using helicopters.

Few of us have military experience (God Bless and happy Memorial Day to those who do) and those who do probably don't have the kind of experience of those who planned the mission. What we do have is the gift of hindsight.

Every time a military conflict goes sour, be it this mission, going into Iraq, Iran hostage crisis, whatever, people act like it was so obvious it would go poorly. War is all about uncertainty, folks. Generals aren't clairvoyant.

I'm not saying your wrong, and this mission was a good idea, but I just don't think it was really bleeding obvious that it would go sour.

156 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:15:19am

re: #147 darthstar

Agreed, but this flotilla wasn't trying to sneak in by the dark of night loaded with weapons, and they clearly communicated that fact.

Are you seriously suggesting that Israel should just take their word for it?

I repeat: Gaza is controlled by a terrorist group sworn to destroy Israel. Why is this simple fact difficult to grasp?

157 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:15:19am

Since some people seem ignorant of who was on these boats....
IHH, which plays a central role in organizing the flotilla to the Gaza Strip, is a Turkish humanitarian relief fund with a radical Islamic anti-Western orientation. Besides its legitimate philanthropic activities, it supports radical Islamic networks, including Hamas, and at least in the past, even global jihad elements.

IHH’s Links with the Global Jihad

11. The ITIC has reliable information indicating that in the past IHH had links with global jihad and Islamic terrorist elements in the Middle East. As part of its connections with the global jihad it supported jihadist terrorist networks in Bosnia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Chechnya.

12. That was manifested by logistic support for the transfer of weapons and money. This information verifies findings of a study conducted by a Danish research institute into IHH’s past links with Al-Qaeda (See below).

13. We do not have updated information about current IHH links with global jihad elements, however, its activities in the past may indicate its nature.

Danish Research Institute Exposes Past IHH Links with Al-Qaeda

14. In 2006 a Danish research institute called the Danish Institute for International Studies conducted a study which reported that in the past IHH had connections with Al-Qaeda and global jihad operatives.5 The well-documented study was conducted by Evan Kohlman,6 an American researcher who specializes in Al-Qaeda and related subjects. It deals with the involvement of Islamic charity funds and foundations in supporting terrorism. Pages 10-14 relate to IHH.

158 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:15:24am

re: #125 drcordell

Off to go drink more on this fine Memorial Day weekend.

That's right, go get shit-faced when people here show you how stupid you are.

159 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:15:34am

re: #146 cenotaphium

Obviously the ones on the ship with the casualties weren't all peaceful. But it'd be wrong to assume everyone involved is a "terrorist sympathizer". People do the wrong thing for the right intentions. It's not right to portray them as malicious if they're misguided.

If you are helping Hamas, you're a terrorist sympathizer.

160 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:15:41am

re: #147 darthstar
All the asshats had to do is what the Israeli navy told them to do. Pull into an Israeli port, get inspected and the non contraband stuff would be sent on its way. The morons didn't do that, they wanted a confrontation and they got it. I have no time nor tears to waste on fools.

161 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:15:47am

re: #146 cenotaphium

Obviously the ones on the ship with the casualties weren't all peaceful. But it'd be wrong to assume everyone involved is a "terrorist sympathizer". People do the wrong thing for the right intentions. It's not right to portray them as malicious if they're misguided.

No, they are merely useful idiots. The road to hell is paved with useful idiots.

162 windsword  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:15:51am

re: #145 Rightwingconspirator

Un down dinged as well.


And an upding for you, good sir. No hard feelings.

163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:15:52am

re: #151 shiplord kirel

Cynthia McKinney Mourns the Dead of the Freedom Flotilla to Gaza

I am outraged at Israel's latest criminal act. I mourn with my fellow Free Gaza travelers, the lives that have been lost by Israel's needless, senseless act against unarmed humanitarian activists.

164 kmg  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:15:57am

My heart sank when I first read about this in the MSM. But I came here right away knowing that there was more to the story. Thank you Charles (and others) for showing the complete story, videos and all!!

165 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:16:35am

re: #154 darthstar

I didn't call them "peace activists"...I called them "activists"...but their stated mission was one of aid, not combat. Call it a PR stunt if you want, but it wasn't a terrorist attack on Israel, and they weren't smuggling weapons.

Again with the "stated mission". You really are a tool.

166 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:17:41am

re: #163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I love how they go on and on about "unarmed" activists.

BULLSHIT

167 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:17:41am

re: #151 shiplord kirel
Is that loons 15 minutes ever going to end?!

168 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:18:13am

re: #154 darthstar

I didn't call them "peace activists"...I called them "activists"...but their stated mission was one of aid, not combat. Call it a PR stunt if you want, but it wasn't a terrorist attack on Israel, and they weren't smuggling weapons.

Fair enough, Darth. But the term 'activist', especially in these areas, is associated with the prefix 'peace'. And if they were truly on a mission of aid, they would have agreed to make port in Ashdod, as the Israeli's offered. They defied a blockade, ran a blockade and paid the price.

169 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:18:22am

re: #152 MandyManners

Remember when Egypt gassed the tunnels?

Yes, the condemnation was deafening.
No one cares when Muslims kill their own.

170 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:18:29am

re: #156 Charles

Are you seriously suggesting that Israel should just take their word for it?

I repeat: Gaza is controlled by a terrorist group sworn to destroy Israel. Why is this simple fact difficult to grasp?

No, I said they should have tried sending small inspection teams to verify the cargo. Verify. If that didn't work, then blow the props off their boats and tow the fuckers in...certainly that could have been done without concern about return fire.

171 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:19:07am

re: #154 darthstar

I didn't call them "peace activists"...I called them "activists"...but their stated mission was one of aid, not combat. Call it a PR stunt if you want, but it wasn't a terrorist attack on Israel, and they weren't smuggling weapons.

You can't possibly be this naive, can you?

172 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:19:32am

re: #171 The Shadow Do

You can't possibly be this naive, can you?

I think he can.

173 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:19:50am

re: #156 Charles

Are you seriously suggesting that Israel should just take their word for it?

I repeat: Gaza is controlled by a terrorist group sworn to destroy Israel. Why is this simple fact difficult to grasp?

Because it means they would have to admit to their own antisemitism, I think.

174 Taqyia2Me  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:19:52am

re: #170 darthstar

No, I said they should have tried sending small inspection teams to verify the cargo. Verify. If that didn't work, then blow the props off their boats and tow the fuckers in...certainly that could have been done without concern about return fire.

I believe that is exactly what they were trying to do.

175 philosophus invidius  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:20:20am

re: #147 darthstar

There is probably no weapons since the point is to break the blockade. With that accomplished, weapons can come in good time.

That said, if weapons are found, Israel will be accused of planting them there.

As has been mentioned, it's pretty much a no win situation all around.

176 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:20:26am

Totally OT, the Pres. had to cancel the Memorial Day speech due to weather. That sucks.

177 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:20:32am

Wasnt' drcordell the one who tried to claim Hamas is a social-welfare group a few weeks ago?

178 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:20:42am

re: #170 darthstar

No, I said they should have tried sending small inspection teams to verify the cargo. Verify. If that didn't work, then blow the props off their boats and tow the fuckers in...certainly that could have been done without concern about return fire.

The first few "inspectors" were brutally attacked.

179 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:21:31am

re: #162 windsword

And an upding for you, good sir. No hard feelings.

Well said, Wind.
/Up-ding worthy

180 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:21:36am

re: #163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Is Galloway spouting off, too?

181 philosophus invidius  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:21:53am

re: #170 darthstar

No, I said they should have tried sending small inspection teams to verify the cargo. Verify. If that didn't work, then blow the props off their boats and tow the fuckers in...certainly that could have been done without concern about return fire.

Any reason to think that would meet with a better reaction? Any reason to risk sinking the boat while blowing off the props?

182 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:21:54am

re: #177 MandyManners
Are you serious?!

183 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:22:18am

re: #177 MandyManners

Wasnt' drcordell the one who tried to claim Hamas is a social-welfare group a few weeks ago?

They're not?

184 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:22:38am

re: #177 MandyManners

Wasnt' drcordell the one who tried to claim Hamas is a social-welfare group a few weeks ago?

Yes

185 transient  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:22:48am

re: #170 darthstar

No, I said they should have tried sending small inspection teams to verify the cargo. Verify. If that didn't work, then blow the props off their boats and tow the fuckers in...certainly that could have been done without concern about return fire.

You remember the lynch mob photos from Ramallah?
So Israel should willingly sacrifice a couple of inspectors to the lynch mob to mitigate the bad publicity?

No, I don't think so. If you are expecting resistance, you go in prepared with appropriate force. These people are not peaceful, they intended and planned a confrontation for publicity purposes, and unfortunately the IDF did not have enough intel to neutralize them.

It is an indication of improved Israeli PR , though, that they have the explanatory videos up promptly.

186 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:22:53am

re: #169 solomonpanting

Yes, the condemnation was deafening.
No one cares when Muslims kill their own.

But, Israel erects a fence to keep their citizens safe and they're equated with Nazis.

187 drcordell  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:23:21am

re: #141 MandyManners

I'd attribute your Jew-hating bullshit to booze but, it's not the first time.

Go fuck yourself Mandy. By your definition 60% of American Jews are anti-semitic.

188 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:23:23am

re: #170 darthstar

No, I said they should have tried sending small inspection teams to verify the cargo. Verify. If that didn't work, then blow the props off their boats and tow the fuckers in...certainly that could have been done without concern about return fire.

They would have attacked the inspection teams.

189 drcordell  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:23:56am

re: #186 MandyManners

But, Israel erects a fence to keep their citizens safe and they're equated with Nazis.

Apartheid FTW!

190 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:23:59am

re: #171 The Shadow Do

You can't possibly be this naive, can you?

I don't know that I'd call it being naive.

191 cenotaphium  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:24:02am

re: #159 MandyManners

If you are helping Hamas, you're a terrorist sympathizer.

re: #161 Gang of One

No, they are merely useful idiots. The road to hell is paved with useful idiots.

Harsh judgements, but fair enough.

I'd just like to point out that this forum is very good inbetween some bitter wordplay. I'm certainly much better informed on Israel than I was when I joined up. And more sympathetic.
Tying into how we might want to avoid overgeneralizing, this is coming from one of those brainwashed lefty Eurotrash people sometimes called out here. We're not all bad. And I'm sure we can be better with more edification as opposed to condemnation.

192 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:24:09am

re: #188 MandyManners

They would have attacked the inspection teams.

/fixed.

193 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:24:11am

re: #177 MandyManners

Wasnt' drcordell the one who tried to claim Hamas is a social-welfare group a few weeks ago?


No. He correctly noted that Hamas provides social services as well as being, first and foremost, a terrorist organization.

He says enough dumbass shit without adding to it with things he didn't say, Mandy.

194 drcordell  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:24:37am

re: #186 MandyManners

But, Israel erects a fence to keep their citizens safe and they're equated with Nazis.

They're just "separate but equal" right Mandy?

195 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:24:45am

re: #170 darthstar
I've been there when that's been tried. It's damn near impossible. We used 5" inert rounds and put one through the hull plating in the engine room. 70lbs of metal bouncing around the engine room will get people to stop. Disabling the rudder or propellor is damn near impossible unless the ship is stopped.

196 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:24:52am

Just gonna' step back before I explode.

197 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:25:17am

re: #178 Racer X

The first few "inspectors" were brutally attacked.

Dropping commandos in by helicopter in a pre-dawn raid isn't the same as sending a handful of non-military inspectors aboard in daylight. Granted, the flotilla was on a PR stunt, but inspecting them and letting them through wouldn't have meant a lifting of the blockade.

198 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:25:32am

re: #187 drcordell

Go fuck yourself Mandy. By your definition 60% of American Jews are anti-semitic.

I'd honestly say that they are in the 'self-deprecating' camp.

199 drcordell  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:25:36am

re: #196 MandyManners

Just gonna' step back before I explode.

Make sure your explosion is not in international waters please. Thanks!

200 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:26:19am

Hay guys! What's happenin here?


Oh, dr cordell. Ok! I'll be over by the punch.

201 Digital Display  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:26:37am

re: #187 drcordell

Go fuck yourself Mandy. By your definition 60% of American Jews are anti-semitic.

As always..You always..No matter what, go over the line..
Every time you post...

202 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:26:46am

re: #194 drcordell
There wouldn't need to be a fence if Hamas would quit sending rockets and suicide bombers into Israel!

203 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:27:26am

re: #199 drcordell

Make sure your explosion is not in international waters please. Thanks!

If she were to explode there'd be no reason to board her, huh? Or, I should say, waterboard her.

204 windsword  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:27:57am

re: #163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I just searched McKinney's website. She never even acknowledged Memorial Day in the entire time it's been up. But when IDF fights back against a bunch of extremists, NOW she's mentioning Memorial Day in her statement.

Fuck you, Cynthia.

[Link: www.allthingscynthiamckinney.com...]

205 transient  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:27:57am

Nor would a blockade be required if Hamas was not demonstrably and continuously at war with Israel-- to the detriment and impoverishment of their own population.

206 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:28:02am

re: #197 darthstar

Dropping commandos in by helicopter in a pre-dawn raid isn't the same as sending a handful of non-military inspectors aboard in daylight. Granted, the flotilla was on a PR stunt, but inspecting them and letting them through wouldn't have meant a lifting of the blockade.

Dude, They were offered the chance to dock, have their ship inspected and continue on. They refused. Thus the comandos were sent in. They had the chance to have their ship inspected and refused. They refused. It's very simple.

207 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:28:06am

re: #201 HoosierHoops

Yeah, it's like, he's not a troll, he's just like, always making this face: Image: Henry+Rollins+henry__rollins.jpg

208 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:28:29am

re: #197 darthstar
Do you really think the folks on those ships would've let inspectors aboard? And if they did, would the inspectors be alive to tell the tale? I think not.

209 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:29:01am

re: #193 Obdicut

No. He correctly noted that Hamas provides social services as well as being, first and foremost, a terrorist organization.

I seem to recall another nasty group who provided social services while they committed atrocities. Damn, what was their name?

210 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:29:26am

re: #209 Racer X

I seem to recall another nasty group who provided social services while they committed atrocities. Damn, what was their name?

ACORN!

211 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:29:49am

re: #197 darthstar

Dropping commandos in by helicopter in a pre-dawn raid isn't the same as sending a handful of non-military inspectors aboard in daylight. Granted, the flotilla was on a PR stunt, but inspecting them and letting them through wouldn't have meant a lifting of the blockade.

The activists ignored numerous warnings. They were told very explicitly that they would be boarded.

They weren't surprised by this at all. It's obviously what they wanted. They were ready with their weapons as soon as the boarding started.

212 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:30:11am

re: #190 MandyManners

I don't know that I'd call it being naive.

OK, I stopped short of what I am thinking

213 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:30:17am

re: #199 drcordell

Make sure your explosion is not in international waters please. Thanks!

You're completely wrong, so far, about everything you've said about international waters. There's a blockade in Gaza. These ships were attempting to run the blockade. Boarding them in international waters is allowed.

If these activisits want to help the Gazan people, they should have been going to Syria, Gaza, Saudi Arabia to tell them to stop demonizing Jews. There is little possibility of peace while the virulent anti-Semitic propaganda is flowing out of those countries.

Oh, and they might drop by Washington to let them know that being allies with Saudi Arabia is a bit of massive hypocrisy.

Whether boarding the ships in this manner was the best way of going about it, the way that led to the least loss of life? I have no clue. I'm not an expert in such things. I don't know whether they refused inspections beforehand. I don't know what was communicated to the ships. But something had to happen-- because of the actions of the flotilla.

214 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:30:36am

re: #206 Killgore Trout

Dude, They were offered the chance to dock, have their ship inspected and continue on. They refused. Thus the comandos were sent in. They had the chance to have their ship inspected and refused. They refused. It's very simple.

It takes a lot of energy to avoid seeing that.

215 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:30:49am

re: #210 WindUpBird

ACORN!

Oh shit that was funny!

216 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:31:09am

re: #209 Racer X

It was right there, dangling in front of me. I really had no choice :D

217 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:32:06am

re: #117 Killgore Trout

Ah, I see you're just being an asshole. I thought you wanted serious debate there for a second. My mistake.

The dude with the avatar peeing on Justice Roberts' head has ever wanted a serious debate?

That'd be news to me...

218 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:32:08am

re: #215 Racer X

But MAN Cordell. Why does anyone even talk to him? He's like the dude who goes up to the piano and hits every key with his forearms. GZZRRnRnRnRnRnRnNnNnNnnnnnn

219 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:32:16am

re: #213 Obdicut

Correction: I do now know they refused inspections.

The USCG/USN wouldn't let a flotilla of ships dock anywhere remotely under their control without inspection. They'd board them. They'd probably be more lethal than the Israeli's were, as well.

220 abolitionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:32:32am

re: #209 Racer X

I seem to recall another nasty group who provided social services while they committed atrocities. Damn, what was their name?

Al Capone and company? That's a tactic BHO should be well aware of.

221 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:32:57am

re: #218 WindUpBird

But MAN Cordell. Why does anyone even talk to him? He's like the dude who goes up to the piano and hits every key with his forearms. GZZRRnRnRnRnRnRnNnNnNnnn

You leave John Tesh out of this!

222 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:33:11am

re: #220 abolitionist

Al Capone and company? That's a tactic BHO should be well aware of.

hahahaha whatever dude lol

223 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:33:28am

re: #221 Obdicut

You leave John Tesh out of this!

*falls over laughing*

224 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:34:04am

re: #14 drcordell

Someone explain to me why sending commandos onto the deck of the ship in international waters was necessary?

Run, Forrest, run!

225 cenotaphium  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:34:34am

re: #221 Obdicut

You leave John Tesh out of this!

My drink came out of my nose and it's your fault! D:

MST3K would be proud.

226 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:34:47am

re: #224 solomonpanting

Run, Forrest, run!

Stupid is as stupid does.

227 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:34:50am

re: #208 pingjockey

Do you really think the folks on those ships would've let inspectors aboard? And if they did, would the inspectors be alive to tell the tale? I think not.

So you think the Israeli Jews who were part of the flotilla were also there to kill Israelis? If they did that, they'd all be at the bottom of the sea right now. It was an international group of people, not armed Hamas and Hizbollah terrorists. These flotillas have been going on for a few years now, and the people they attract are mostly non-violent types who want to see an end to the violence. Now a few fought the boarding military personnel, and several were killed, so some here will predictably believe that everyone who was on those boats was there to kill an Israeli.

228 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:34:53am

re: #189 drcordell

Apartheid FTW!

I thought you were going to go get drunk.

Please do.

229 Joo-LiZ  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:34:55am

EXCELLENT point, refuting the cries of a "massacre".

From the National Post:

If Israel truly had wanted to “massacre” the Hamas sympathizers and fellow travellers aboard a six-ship Gaza-bound flotilla, the operation would not have been complicated. The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) would have used the trusty North Korean solution: Torpedo the ships and watch them sink to the bottom of the sea. That’s certainly what Hamas would have done to a boatload of Jews, if it got the chance.

230 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:35:03am

Expect a UN resolution condeming Israel for lawless or terrorist acts tomorrow.

231 transient  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:35:24am

The Palestinians have a record of creating violent publicity stunts as far back as Munich '72*, and deceptive publicity stunts in the last dozen years or so (to wit, the al-Dura affair). This latest is Oscar material. It obviously required extensive planning and the placement of militia/ terrorist troops on board a ship with dozens or hundreds of "activists" aka human shields to create a violent incident, then spin it as IDF brutality. Fits the usual MO. Whether or not this was pre-planned, they can now push the international waters angle and possible the NATO angle (as someone above suggested). They are getting very sophisticated at this, and Israel needs to become more sophisticated in their intelligence/ planning and reactions.

It is funny, though. I don't recall anyone this concerned about the freedom of navigation in '67, when Egypt blocked Israel from passing the straights of Tiran.

*You could go back further to the 1970 hijackings to Jordan that led to Black September, but that was not directed against Israel per se.

232 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:35:30am

re: #69 efuseakay

True, but this "peace activist" group made statements prior to all of this happening. Israel had to know they wouldn't just let them board the ship peacefully.

Maybe. The other ships went peacefully.

They always make statements. Usually they don't mean shit.

233 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:36:15am

re: #217 Aceofwhat?

The dude with the avatar peeing on Justice Roberts' head has ever wanted a serious debate?

That'd be news to me...

lol

234 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:36:27am

re: #193 Obdicut

No. He correctly noted that Hamas provides social services as well as being, first and foremost, a terrorist organization.

He says enough dumbass shit without adding to it with things he didn't say, Mandy.

I don't recall he said that until he was forced. Heck, for that matter, I don't recall he said it at all.

235 philosophus invidius  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:36:33am

re: #227 darthstar

No one said that everyone on board was attacking the soldiers. You think the guys waiting with metal rods were Israelis and grandmothers and Nobel Peace Prize winners?

236 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:36:33am

Here's my confusion about the doublethink involved in the Israel/Arab World situation:

A lot of people on the 'left' side of the aisle rightly have condemned the overheated racial rhetoric in the United States, signified in things like the assholic law in Mexico. They rightly point out that such propaganda leads to death, leads to violence, and prevents and reasonable solution to problems.

However, many of those same people are highly critical of Israel-- even though Israel, and the Jewish citizens of Israel, are the subjects of incredibly virulent propaganda throughout the Arab world. The idea that Israel can end anything, can solve anything while the propaganda campaign against them continues is directly antithetical to the observation that the rhetoric here in the US is taking us to a bad place.

I don't get it.

237 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:36:34am

re: #207 WindUpBird

Yeah, it's like, he's not a troll, he's just like, always making this face: Image: Henry+Rollins+henry__rollins.jpg

dude, Rollins is cool - don't diss him by comparing him to Cordell;)

238 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:36:42am

re: #227 darthstar
Just the one ship attacked the commandos, yes. The other 5 did not. I said I don't know how crazy those people on board are.

239 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:36:48am

re: #170 darthstar

No, I said they should have tried sending small inspection teams to verify the cargo. Verify.


That is exactly what would have happened if the boat had heaved to when first ordered to do so. It is what happened with the other vessels in the convoy, in fact. The boarding party would still have to exercise due dilligence against the possibility of an attack once aboard. This is customary in all such operations on the high seas and would be especially necessary given the history of this conflict.
Here in Texas, the state police have set up seatbelt and drunk driving checkpoints everywhere this weekend. They don't do even that without being armed. They are actually more heavily armed than the Israeli boarders, in fact, since they augment their pistols with shotguns rather than paintball guns.

If that didn't work, then blow the props off their boats and tow the fuckers in...certainly that could have been done without concern about return fire.


That isn't technically feasible. Ship propellers are metal, usually phospor bronze, and very strongly made. Any charge powerful enough to disable or remove them would risk severe damage to the adjacent hull, ie a good chance the vessel would sink immediately. The exception is to have divers attach shaped charges to the shafts, but that is not possible with a moving prop on a moving vessel.
The same is true of shooting through the hull to disable the engine, with the additional risk of a massive fire.

240 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:36:59am

re: #194 drcordell

They're just "separate but equal" right Mandy?

You fucking stupid, stupid bastard.

241 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:37:00am

I don't know if it was mentioned, but where are the ships now?

242 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:37:05am

re: #227 darthstar

So you think the Israeli Jews who were part of the flotilla were also there to kill Israelis? If they did that, they'd all be at the bottom of the sea right now. It was an international group of people, not armed Hamas and Hizbollah terrorists. These flotillas have been going on for a few years now, and the people they attract are mostly non-violent types who want to see an end to the violence. Now a few fought the boarding military personnel, and several were killed, so some here will predictably believe that everyone who was on those boats was there to kill an Israeli.

No, Darth, of course not. Just painfully naive and misguided.

243 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:38:43am

re: #230 pingjockey

Expect a UN resolution condeming Israel for lawless or terrorist acts tomorrow.

This afternoon, actually. The usual "emergency session" started forty minutes ago.

244 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:38:52am

re: #236 Obdicut

Assholic lawn in Arizona, I mean.

245 ryannon  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:39:11am

France is officially siding with the Gazans while the media pumps the 'official' version of a martyred enclave from A to Z in videos and commentaries. Champs Elysée blocked by demonstrators for the past hour, Israeli embassy protected by riot police. Similar demonstrations in dozens of other towns.

246 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:39:25am

re: #237 Aceofwhat?

dude, Rollins is cool - don't diss him by comparing him to Cordell;)

heehee I just wnated an excuse to post that photo :D

I saw Rollins' spoken word act a couple years ago live. The guy just walks up to the mic, opens his mouth, and he doesn't TAKE A BREATH FOR THREE HOURS it was insane and amazing :D

247 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:39:28am

re: #241 brookly red

I don't know if it was mentioned, but where are the ships now?

They were towed into Ashdod.

248 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:39:34am

re: #211 Charles

The activists ignored numerous warnings. They were told very explicitly that they would be boarded.

They weren't surprised by this at all. It's obviously what they wanted. They were ready with their weapons as soon as the boarding started.

Silly of Israel to oblige, in my opinion. And they've justified their actions, as evidenced by the balanced opinions expressed here. I don't think the international community will agree with them, and I don't understand the enthusiasm some people have for this kind of military action. I just can't buy into it.

249 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:39:57am

Regarding the international waters thing....
Law Expert Dr Robbie Sabel IDF action in international waters legal


IMRA asked Hebrew University international law expert Dr. Robbie Sabel about
the legality of the IDF action in international waters.

Dr. Sabel explained that a state, in a time of conflict, can impose an
embargo, and while it cannot carry out embargo activities in the territorial
waters of a third party, it can carry out embargo activities in
international waters.

Within this framework it is legal to detain a civilian vessel trying to
break an embargo and if in the course of detaining the vessel, force is used
against the forces carrying out the detention then that force has every
right to act in self defense.

Dr. Sabel noted that there is a long history of embargo activities in
international waters.


Those who are curious can use google to educate themselves about embargos.

250 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:40:02am

re: #243 Cato the Elder
Damn, they are quick of the mark when it comes to condeming Israel.

251 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:40:07am

re: #243 Cato the Elder

This afternoon, actually. The usual "emergency session" started forty minutes ago.

I'm sure the U.N. "Human Rights" Commission will be fair.

/ / / / / / / / /

252 carefulnow  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:40:33am

re: #231 transient

1968 - Sirhan Sirhan

253 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:40:33am

re: #245 ryannon

France is officially siding with the Gazans while the media pumps the 'official' version of a martyred enclave from A to Z in videos and commentaries. Champs Elysée blocked by demonstrators for the past hour, Israeli embassy protected by riot police. Similar demonstrations in dozens of other towns.

- Cheered Hamas

254 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:40:54am

re: #244 Obdicut

Assholic lawn in Arizona, I mean.

Being wonderfully mowed and tended to by an 'indocumentado'.
//it's a joke ...

255 Soap_Man  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:41:27am

Hey guys and gals. I just showed up so I missed most of this.

But there is a question burning in my mind that has not been answered at the nexus of wisdom that is the HuffPo comment thread.

If the sole purpose of this was so that the IDF could rough up/kill innocent peace activists, then why record the whole thing? And then why release said recording?

I have a hard time believing some IDF commander said, "Hey, lets go kill some of these folks for no particular reason. And don't forget the camera!!"

256 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:41:35am

re: #125 drcordell

No shit your commandos are going to get physically attacked when they paratroop onto the deck of a ship in international waters in the middle of the night. What did they fucking expect?

Sorry, but this has the situation completely backwards.

If you're on a mission to break a blockade and you have been repeatedly warned that it's not going to be allowed, you've refused an inspection, and you've ignored warnings that your ships will be boarded, what you should do is let the soldiers board, allow them to inspect the cargo, and shut the hell up while it happens.

Not attack them.

By this kind of logic, if you're speeding and get stopped by a traffic cop, you have the right to punch him out and he should expect nothing else. Sorry, reality doesn't work like that.

257 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:42:13am

re: #248 darthstar

Silly of Israel to oblige, in my opinion. And they've justified their actions, as evidenced by the balanced opinions expressed here. I don't think the international community will agree with them, and I don't understand the enthusiasm some people have for this kind of military action. I just can't buy into it.

I don't think it is so much enthusiasm as much as it is agreement. What needs to be done needs to be done.

258 cenotaphium  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:42:18am

re: #239 shiplord kirel

They don't do even that without being armed. They are actually more heavily armed than the Israeli boarders, in fact, since they augment their pistols with shotguns rather than paintball guns.

Someone recently linked an article saying that the IDF had pistol sidearms and that it was one or more of these that got wrestled from the soldiers and into the hands of the.. (choosing words carefully).. boat occupants. Is this correct or not? Did the people on the boat have pistols *and* shotguns to begin with?

259 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:42:45am

re: #227 darthstar

reading too much Kos again? the "diary" over there on this topic is as prejudiced a thing as i've seen in a long time.

one of the comments suggests that this is a test to see if they can get away with this sort of massacre on a regular basis. 80 updings.

nice.

260 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:42:59am

re: #256 Charles

By this kind of logic, if you're speeding and get stopped by a traffic cop, you have the right to punch him out and he should expect nothing else. Sorry, reality doesn't work like that.


It's also the same logic that wingnuts use to excuse the Branch Dividians and Waco.

261 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:43:09am

re: #255 Soap_Man

Hey guys and gals. I just showed up so I missed most of this.

But there is a question burning in my mind that has not been answered at the nexus of wisdom that is the HuffPo comment thread.

If the sole purpose of this was so that the IDF could rough up/kill innocent peace activists, then why record the whole thing? And then why release said recording?

I have a hard time believing some IDF commander said, "Hey, lets go kill some of these folks for no particular reason. And don't forget the camera!!"

haha exactly

Man, HuffPo comments are the ninth plane of hell, why are you doing that to yourself :D

262 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:43:23am

re: #235 philosophus invidius

No one said that everyone on board was attacking the soldiers. You think the guys waiting with metal rods were Israelis and grandmothers and Nobel Peace Prize winners?

Hey, I'm not the one calling the flotilla a terrorist plot. Yes, there were Nobel winners, grandmothers, etc. on the ships. That's my point. (cue claims of 'human shield')

263 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:43:39am

re: #258 cenotaphium

I think that's still unclear.

264 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:43:39am

re: #250 pingjockey

Damn, they are quick of the mark when it comes to condeming Israel.

Sometimes I think it is their sole raison d'etre.

265 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:43:47am

re: #256 Charles
That's at least twice by you, and I don't know how many times by other Lizards, how this came about. Some folks just don't want to 'get it', I guess.

266 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:43:58am

re: #254 Gang of One

Being wonderfully mowed and tended to by an 'indocumentado'.
//it's a joke ...

Oy, I give up. I'm too tired to type right.

267 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:44:13am

re: #248 darthstar

Silly of Israel to oblige, in my opinion. And they've justified their actions, as evidenced by the balanced opinions expressed here. I don't think the international community will agree with them, and I don't understand the enthusiasm some people have for this kind of military action. I just can't buy into it.

Inaction is unacceptable. How long do you think the current administration would last were we to allow ships dispatched from hostile territory to pass into US port uninspected? This is called common sense oddly enough.

268 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:44:32am

re: #166 Joo-LiZ

I love how they go on and on about "unarmed" activists.

BULLSHIT

I know I'm jumping into the thread kinda late, but the term "unarmed" is usually used for people who don't have guns. I think that's an absolutely bullshit definition, as "unarmed" people can still beat the living daylights out of you, as this incident very vividly demonstrates.

269 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:45:34am

re: #187 drcordell

Go fuck yourself Mandy. By your definition 60% of American Jews are anti-semitic.

Whose ass did you pull that 60% from?

270 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:45:35am

re: #264 Gang of One
It certainly seems that way.

271 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:45:51am

re: #256 Charles

Sorry, but this has the situation completely backwards.

If you're on a mission to break a blockade and you have been repeatedly warned that it's not going to be allowed, you've refused an inspection, and you've ignored warnings that your ships will be boarded, what you should do is let the soldiers board, allow them to inspect the cargo, and shut the hell up while it happens.

Not attack them.

By this kind of logic, if you're speeding and get stopped by a traffic cop, you have the right to punch him out and he should expect nothing else. Sorry, reality doesn't work like that.

I love you, Charles.
//in a healthy, Lizardoid kinda way, right?

272 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:46:06am

re: #251 Racer X

I'm sure the U.N. "Human Rights" Commission will be fair.

/ / / /

Yeah, the one BHO joined after Bush refused to join.

I wonder what the Alliance of Civilizations will have to say.

[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

273 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:46:18am

re: #236 Obdicut

Here's my confusion about the doublethink involved in the Israel/Arab World situation:

A lot of people on the 'left' side of the aisle rightly have condemned the overheated racial rhetoric in the United States, signified in things like the assholic law in Mexico. They rightly point out that such propaganda leads to death, leads to violence, and prevents and reasonable solution to problems.

However, many of those same people are highly critical of Israel-- even though Israel, and the Jewish citizens of Israel, are the subjects of incredibly virulent propaganda throughout the Arab world. The idea that Israel can end anything, can solve anything while the propaganda campaign against them continues is directly antithetical to the observation that the rhetoric here in the US is taking us to a bad place.

I don't get it.

Israel could go away, and the Jew-haters wouldn't have any Jews to hate anymore. Short of that, there's nothing.

274 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:46:33am

re: #246 WindUpBird

heehee I just wnated an excuse to post that photo :D

I saw Rollins' spoken word act a couple years ago live. The guy just walks up to the mic, opens his mouth, and he doesn't TAKE A BREATH FOR THREE HOURS it was insane and amazing :D

he's totally insane. but it's one of those captivating, ican'tstopwatching varieties of insanity...love it.

275 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:47:23am

re: #260 Killgore Trout

It's also the same logic that wingnuts use to excuse the Branch Dividians and Waco.

bingo. dissonance on both sides of the aisle revealed here...

276 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:47:27am

re: #82 efuseakay

How do you actually do that? Jedi powers?

Well, previously, when the big Israeli navy ships sailed up and blocked their path, they usually turned around. Or tried to outmaneuver them, and ended up crashing into Lebanon, one time.

Lebanon was not too nice about it, which I think upset and confused the peace activists.

277 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:47:49am

re: #266 Obdicut

Oy, I give up. I'm too tired to type right.

Cheers, Obdicut! Enjoy the day, friend!

278 abolitionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:48:22am

re: #273 Cato the Elder

Israel could go away, and the Jew-haters wouldn't have any Jews to hate anymore. Short of that, there's nothing.

It's been pointed out to me that Jesus was Jewish. He has a number of followers.

279 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:48:23am

re: #258 cenotaphium

Someone recently linked an article saying that the IDF had pistol sidearms and that it was one or more of these that got wrestled from the soldiers and into the hands of the.. (choosing words carefully).. boat occupants. Is this correct or not? Did the people on the boat have pistols *and* shotguns to begin with?

Huh? I was pointing out that the Israeli boarding party was not actually as heavily armed as the cops operating our local checkpoint. This was in response to suggestions of excessive force.
The report of the stolen pistols is correct as far as I know.

280 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:48:40am

re: #278 abolitionist

It's been pointed out to me that Jesus was Jewish. He has a number of followers.

haha it's been in a couple of papers

281 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:48:54am

re: #264 Gang of One

Sometimes I think it is their sole raison d'etre.

Trirsh, you spoke French!

282 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:49:25am

re: #248 darthstar

Silly of Israel to oblige, in my opinion. And they've justified their actions, as evidenced by the balanced opinions expressed here. I don't think the international community will agree with them, and I don't understand the enthusiasm some people have for this kind of military action. I just can't buy into it.

Once again, the international community can get stuffed.

And where do you get the "enthusiasm" line?

Yet you pretty enthusiastically embrace the notion that the flotilla had anything to do with humanitarian aid.

283 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:49:41am

re: #101 Killgore Trout

The commander should have been watching after the first one or two guys went down the others should have been sent in with deadly force.

Yeah. I don't know what's happening there, you can see that the situation is going haywire, but they just keep dropping.

284 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:50:04am
Greece, Egypt, Sweden, Spain and Denmark summoned Israel's ambassadors demanding explanations for the violence, with Spain and France condemning what they called the disproportionate use of force.

There's that phrase again. The IDF should have responded in kind by pulling peace knives, peace stun grenades and peace firebombs.

285 cenotaphium  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:50:16am

re: #279 shiplord kirel

Huh? I was pointing out that the Israeli boarding party was not actually as heavily armed as the cops operating our local checkpoint. This was in response to suggestions of excessive force.
The report of the stolen pistols is correct as far as I know.

That'll teach me to skim posts. :(

*wears cone of shame*

286 philosophus invidius  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:50:20am

re: #262 darthstar

Hey, I'm not the one calling the flotilla a terrorist plot. Yes, there were Nobel winners, grandmothers, etc. on the ships. That's my point. (cue claims of 'human shield')

But your argument seems to have been that since the boat occupants were mostly non-violent, that a gentler approach by the Israelis would have worked. The point is that it doesn't matter whether they were mostly grandmothers or other misguided peaceful people. The point is that there plenty of guys there willing there to kill an Israeli soldier with metal rods.

287 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:50:28am

There are 61 registered users on this here thread. Lotsa lurkers.

288 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:50:43am

I've got to head out, but #Israel and other twitter feeds are getting over run by anti semites and Israel haters

289 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:50:47am

re: #281 MandyManners

Trirsh, you spoke French!

Mais oui, mon cherie!

290 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:51:15am

re: #280 WindUpBird

haha it's been in a couple of papers

there was a book or something...it's on the tip of my tongue...

;)

291 Digital Display  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:51:39am

re: #250 pingjockey

Damn, they are quick of the mark when it comes to condeming Israel.

The United Nations released a statement deploring the use of Paint guns to board a Freedom fighter Ship in International waters off of Gaza this Morning..
The Head Russian UN Diplomat declared, ' You could put an eye out with one of those things!'
The Chinese were strangely silent upon hearing about the manufacturing site identified from the Tag.
The State Dept. Has declared Louisville Baseball bats on the do not export list for Syria..

292 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:52:05am

re: #285 cenotaphium

That'll teach me to skim posts. :(

*wears cone of shame*

's OK.
I've done that a couple of time here.
(No, I will not provide a link.)

293 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:52:14am

re: #287 pingjockey

There are 61 registered users on this here thread. Lotsa lurkers.

Warriors, come out and play-ee-yay!

294 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:52:32am

re: #284 solomonpanting
Strange, we never hear of those folks condeming Hamas or Hezbollocks for shooting rockets into Israel.

295 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:52:35am

re: #104 Conservative Moonbat

In the end this was an attack on a vessel of a NATO state (Turkey) by a non NATO state (Israel). All NATO states are obliged to respond as if it was an attack on them personally.

I support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish homeland, but they fucked up here.

Hold it. Turkey's ship openly declared an intention to run Israel's blockade. Is that an act of war by Turkey?

Or is this a matter of a pack of floating thugs using a ship under Turkish flag for their own political purposes?

296 Renaissance_Man  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:52:38am

re: #287 pingjockey

There are 61 registered users on this here thread. Lotsa lurkers.

Some of the registered are lurking too. And, at least in my case, learning.

297 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:53:13am

re: #291 HoosierHoops

The United Nations released a statement deploring the use of Paint guns to board a Freedom fighter Ship in International waters off of Gaza this Morning..
The Head Russian UN Diplomat declared, ' You could put an eye out with one of those things!'
The Chinese were strangely silent upon hearing about the manufacturing site identified from the Tag.
The State Dept. Has declared Louisville Baseball bats on the do not export list for Syria..

You are in rare form today, Hoops!

298 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:53:14am

re: #287 pingjockey

There are 61 registered users on this here thread. Lotsa lurkers.

Hey, some of us were going at this last night.

299 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:53:22am

re: #287 pingjockey

There are 61 registered users on this here thread. Lotsa lurkers.

I'm just watching it float by :D

300 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:53:22am

re: #291 HoosierHoops
MWahaha! Well done.

301 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:53:29am

re: #294 pingjockey

Strange, we never hear of those folks condeming Hamas or Hezbollocks for shooting rockets into Israel.

Those be peace rockets

302 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:53:36am

re: #259 Aceofwhat?

reading too much Kos again? the "diary" over there on this topic is as prejudiced a thing as i've seen in a long time.

one of the comments suggests that this is a test to see if they can get away with this sort of massacre on a regular basis. 80 updings.

nice.

I actually haven't read the dKos diaries. I know they're just as emotionally charged as the comments here. I could easily go there and voice my opinion that I think the boarding was overkill, and get some easy mojo. I also know a lot of Jewish kossacks who have the same opinions as many here and who would disagree with me as much as several of the posters above...though I wouldn't get the same kind of love that the Mandys and Catos show...

303 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:53:42am

I note with some consternation that drcordell and others are putting the rights of international waters on a holy pedestal. News flash, folks: In a war, "international waters" is another term for "place my enemy can hide with relative impunity". Generally speaking, unless you're doing something completely out-of-bounds like attacking a clearly marked neutral vessel, international waters are fair game for enforcing blockades and even open naval action. Or would you rather tell the naval commanders of World War II that their open sea actions were illegal?

304 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:53:45am

re: #294 pingjockey

Strange, we never hear of those folks condeming Hamas or Hezbollocks for shooting rockets into Israel.

Sure we do. When Israel responds. Simple, huh?

305 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:54:09am

re: #115 The Shadow Do

Someone from the administration needs to step up and decry any retaliation on Jews.

I'd appreciate it.

306 SixDegrees  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:54:20am

Very early this morning, BBC reported that there were protests and large demonstrations of this attack in Turkey, somehow "spontaneously" arising almost concurrently with the incident. Video, taken by those on the ship and obviously edited, was also released to wire services almost instantly.

And a Turkish spokesperson stated that Turkey had made exactly the same offer to the flotilla as Israel - dock at one of our ports, and we'll make sure your cargo is passed on to Gaza.

Those claiming that this incident wasn't staged or that Israeli forces weren't provoked are being willfully foolish.

307 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:54:30am

re: #296 Renaissance_Man
Gotcha. I was surprised at such a hot topic, there weren't more.

308 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:54:38am

re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist

Hold it. Turkey's ship openly declared an intention to run Israel's blockade. Is that an act of war by Turkey?

Or is this a matter of a pack of floating thugs using a ship under Turkish flag for their own political purposes?

AFAIK, it was registered in Turkey.

You can register a ship nearly anywhere...it's relatively meaningless for political purposes. It'd only be a "Turkish" ship if the turkish govt/armed forces actually owned and operated it.

That doesn't appear to be the case...

309 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:54:47am

re: #282 Cato the Elder

Once again, the international community can get stuffed.

And where do you get the "enthusiasm" line?

I've been reading your posts.

310 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:54:50am

re: #298 JasonA

Hey, some of us were going at this last night.

Where was I...

Oh that's right I was drunk and talking to mathematicians about how awesome corvette engines are

311 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:55:23am

re: #129 alexknyc

If Hamas laid down their arms, there would be no more violence.

If Israel laid down their arms, there would be no more Israel.

Hackneyed, but true.

312 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:55:23am

re: #298 JasonA
Why thank you. I did a ton of yard work and was toast by 9pm. What time did this go down?

313 North95  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:55:35am

OK, I'm lurking.

I just came here to see the video of the poor peace activists. With their bats and clubs.

314 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:55:40am

re: #129 alexknyc

If Hamas laid down their arms, there would be no more violence.

If Israel laid down their arms, there would be no more Israel.

Well, sort of. If Hamas laid down their arms, Fatah would take their asses out.

315 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:55:48am

re: #308 Aceofwhat?

AFAIK, it was registered in Turkey.

You can register a ship nearly anywhere...it's relatively meaningless for political purposes. It'd only be a "Turkish" ship if the turkish govt/armed forces actually owned and operated it.

That doesn't appear to be the case...

At least it didn't have an American flag. That would have made this a little more awkward.

316 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:55:54am

re: #306 SixDegrees

Very early this morning, BBC reported that there were protests and large demonstrations of this attack in Turkey, somehow "spontaneously" arising almost concurrently with the incident. Video, taken by those on the ship and obviously edited, was also released to wire services almost instantly.

And a Turkish spokesperson stated that Turkey had made exactly the same offer to the flotilla as Israel - dock at one of our ports, and we'll make sure your cargo is passed on to Gaza.

Those claiming that this incident wasn't staged or that Israeli forces weren't provoked are being willfully foolish.

Once again, just because.

317 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:56:03am

re: #305 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd appreciate it.

My wife and family as well

318 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:56:30am

re: #306 SixDegrees

Very early this morning, BBC reported that there were protests and large demonstrations of this attack in Turkey, somehow "spontaneously" arising almost concurrently with the incident. Video, taken by those on the ship and obviously edited, was also released to wire services almost instantly.


I was here when that happened and I remember thinking to myself how suspicious the timing was. It couldn't have been much more than an hour after the incident and those protesters were there.

319 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:56:55am

re: #308 Aceofwhat?

While true, you can bet that people will be using the "Turkish ship" line for a long time after this incident. Was the ship actually flying the Turkish flag, do we know?

320 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:57:04am

re: #136 sattv4u2

I see. So if Israeli TV claims it's NOT such, does that negate what "Turkish TV" states?

Let's see what Micronesian TV has to say.

321 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:57:53am

re: #312 pingjockey

Why thank you. I did a ton of yard work and was toast by 9pm. What time did this go down?

Eh... I think reports started trickling in around midnight to 1 AM? Something like that.

322 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:58:02am

re: #313 North95

OK, I'm lurking.

I just came here to see the video of the poor peace activists. With their bats and clubs.

Marbles! They were armed with slingshots and marbles!

/it's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye.

323 cenotaphium  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:58:03am

re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist

Hold it. Turkey's ship openly declared an intention to run Israel's blockade. Is that an act of war by Turkey?

Or is this a matter of a pack of floating thugs using a ship under Turkish flag for their own political purposes?

In the local press, I keep reading that this incident is especially bad if it sours the relationship between Turkey and Israel, because Turkey is supposedly one of the friendlier states in the area. Is this true? Or are we just talking about the results of a very weighted scale, where "not currently killing us" is considered friendly?

324 philosophus invidius  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:58:37am

re: #323 cenotaphium

true

325 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:58:44am

re: #321 JasonA
OK, was out like the proverbial light.

326 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:58:48am

re: #323 cenotaphium

If?

I think that ship has sailed.

Bad pun totally intended.

327 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:58:48am

re: #147 darthstar

Agreed, but this flotilla wasn't trying to sneak in by the dark of night loaded with weapons, and they clearly communicated that fact. One non-violent solution I can think of off the top of my head would be to send one or two inspectors to board the boats at sea to inspect the cargo. Simple enough, and not threatening. The overkill of this mission is going to hurt Israel internationally, especially if they find no contraband on board.

The Israelis offered to let them port at Ashdod for inspection. They refused. Why would they have allowed an inspector on board, and what situation would have arisen if the Israelis had tried to take their cement?

328 Renaissance_Man  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:58:54am

re: #307 pingjockey

Gotcha. I was surprised at such a hot topic, there weren't more.

It's an emotionally charged topic with a lot of angles to consider. Speaking up about it without being well informed would be stupid. And asking questions is a red flag to some.

329 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:58:57am

re: #309 darthstar

I've been reading your posts.

Your naïveté is thick enough to stun an ox.

330 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:59:02am

re: #322 Alouette

Marbles! They were armed with slingshots and marbles!

/it's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye.

Suicide Marbleists.

331 transient  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:59:03am

re: #308 Aceofwhat?

AFAIK, it was registered in Turkey.

You can register a ship nearly anywhere...it's relatively meaningless for political purposes. It'd only be a "Turkish" ship if the turkish govt/armed forces actually owned and operated it.

That doesn't appear to be the case...

And NATO is not obligated to become involved for every civilian/ merchant ship flying the flag of one of it's member nations. But presumably might if that nation requests assistance.

/Asking, don't really know. Makes sense to me, but rules of sense are often suspended when it comes to Israel.

332 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:59:16am

re: #323 cenotaphium

In the local press, I keep reading that this incident is especially bad if it sours the relationship between Turkey and Israel, because Turkey is supposedly one of the friendlier states in the area. Is this true? Or are we just talking about the results of a very weighted scale, where "not currently killing us" is considered friendly?

It's more of the latter. Israel really has no true allies outside the US, as even Great Britain is more on the "we tolerate you because our best friends the US like you" end of the scale.

333 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:59:22am

re: #308 Aceofwhat?

AFAIK, it was registered in Turkey.

You can register a ship nearly anywhere...it's relatively meaningless for political purposes. It'd only be a "Turkish" ship if the turkish govt/armed forces actually owned and operated it.

That doesn't appear to be the case...

Someone upthread linked to information showing that one of the major organizers of the little peace mission is a known front for AQ and other terror organizations. Certainly helps explains the peaceful knife and grenade wielders on board.

334 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:59:22am

re: #306 SixDegrees

Those claiming that this incident wasn't staged or that Israeli forces weren't provoked are being willfully foolish.

Exactly. Even the disproportionate death toll was orchestrated by the activists themselves. They know that by attacking soldiers with knives and metal poles that eventually the soldiers are going to open fire. The activists would have been thrilled if their own death toll was higher. The entire point of the exercise is to become a victim. That's the whole point.

335 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:59:27am

re: #323 cenotaphium

In the local press, I keep reading that this incident is especially bad if it sours the relationship between Turkey and Israel, because Turkey is supposedly one of the friendlier states in the area. Is this true? Or are we just talking about the results of a very weighted scale, where "not currently killing us" is considered friendly?

Aren't Islamists making large gains in Turkey lately?

336 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:59:46am

re: #152 MandyManners

Remember when Egypt gassed the tunnels?

Egypt's been known to shoot down Somali refugees running for the Israeli border. Real fucking national security threat those people are.

337 Aceofwhat?  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:59:48am

re: #302 darthstar

I actually haven't read the dKos diaries. I know they're just as emotionally charged as the comments here. I could easily go there and voice my opinion that I think the boarding was overkill, and get some easy mojo.

couldn't i make the exact same statement about 'getting easy mojo' by going over to Hot Air and voicing an opinion in support of whatever idiotic position they've taken supporting the violent wingnut du jour?

sure, you could. you still wouldn't be right, or even consistent with the values you've stated here, which i respect.

"emotionally charged" ≠ "clearly incorrect"

just so you know

338 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 10:59:58am

re: #329 Cato the Elder

Your naïveté is thick enough to stun an ox.

I don't believe it's naivete.

339 efuseakay  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:00:10am

re: #112 Gang of One

Funny. You just proved him right.

340 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:00:53am

re: #328 Renaissance_Man
I must raise a lot of red flags! I will ask questions, especially when Lizards provide links and I need clarification. There are some sharp folks here.

341 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:01:06am

re: #338 MandyManners

I don't believe it's naivete.

Darthstar I don't believe is racist, if that's what you're implying

342 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:01:11am

Video Shows Flotilla Extremists’ Incitement

Gaza flotilla extremists created a war atmosphere before attacking Israeli Navy commandoes, according to documented video footage translated by Palestinian Media Watch.

Several of the extremists shouted the common Islamic chant, "[Remember] Khaibar, Khaibar, oh Jews! The army of Mohammed will return!" according to video footage on Al Jazeera television and translated by PMW.

Khaibar is the name of the last Jewish village defeated by Mohammed's army in 628, PMW explained. Many Jews were killed in the battle, which marked the end of Jewish presence in Arabia, and there are Muslims who see that as a precursor to future wars against Jews.

“The chant is often heard as a threat to Jews to expect to be defeated and killed again by Muslims,” PMW added.

Al-Jazeera also interviewed a woman who said that the flotilla participants' goal was "one of two happy endings: either Martyrdom or reaching Gaza."

343 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:01:21am

re: #336 SanFranciscoZionist

Egypt's been known to shoot down Somali refugees running for the Israeli border. Real fucking national security threat those people are.

Are the Somalis Muslims?

344 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:02:58am

re: #339 efuseakay

Funny. You just proved him right.

How so?

345 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:03:10am

re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist

The Israelis offered to let them port at Ashdod for inspection. They refused. Why would they have allowed an inspector on board, and what situation would have arisen if the Israelis had tried to take their cement?

I think they refused the Ashdod port because they didn't trust Israel to let them continue on to Gaza. Allowing an inspector on board wouldn't have impeded their progress. Maybe that was offered by Israel and refused. I don't know.

Obviously, Israel has the firepower to stop them from reaching shore, and I'm grateful for the fact that they didn't decide to just sink the flotilla at sea. This isn't the first flotilla that Israel has had to deal with. I don't understand why they chose military action this time and none of the others.

346 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:03:21am

re: #177 MandyManners

Wasnt' drcordell the one who tried to claim Hamas is a social-welfare group a few weeks ago?

No, he didn't. I'm not happy with him right now, but he made a reasonable point about how they keep their support in Gaza.

347 transient  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:03:34am

Israel previously had good relations with Turkey, but they have gone down hill of late, mostly because of increasing Islamism in the Turkish government. There have been several diplomatic incidents in the past year or two between the two countries. Things sound tenuous to me.

348 dentate  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:04:02am

Israel is provoked into defending itself...

Those who do the provoking claim innocent victimhood...

Israel provides incontrovertible truth to the contrary...

The world ignores facts and evidence, condemns Israeli brutality....

And in other news, the sun rose in the east today...

Wouldn't it be better if Israel just mined the sea approaches to Gaza, and let that fact be publicly known?

349 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:04:29am

re: #345 darthstar

I could be wrong but I think the other flotillas had the sense to turn away. Please correct me if I'm making stuff up.

350 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:04:57am

re: #194 drcordell

They're just "separate but equal" right Mandy?

OK, NOW you're pissing me off.

351 mich-again  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:05:05am

Who could have predicted that "peace activists" on their way to Gaza would get violent? /

Of course they were going to attack the commandos. No one should be surprised at the outcome.

352 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:05:25am

re: #337 Aceofwhat?

"emotionally charged" ≠ "clearly incorrect"

just so you know

Agreed, my friend. By the way, I like the tennis racquet avatar. Did you watch the Sharipova-Henin match finish yesterday? Too much sexy on one court, but I will say I love that Justine. Great final set.

353 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:05:59am

re: #346 SanFranciscoZionist

No, he didn't. I'm not happy with him right now, but he made a reasonable point about how they keep their support in Gaza.

I guess the chance that they'll shove their opponents off of roofs helps, too.

354 Digital Display  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:06:13am

re: #297 Gang of One

You are in rare form today, Hoops!

LOL
Thanks! I'm going to swim a few laps in the pool..pop open a cold beer and post the most brilliant post ever posted on LGF..
Now If I never show up again It means I drowned thinking so hard...
Come on Winston..Lets go swimming...

355 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:06:14am

re: #352 darthstar

Agreed, my friend. By the way, I like the tennis racquet avatar. Did you watch the Sharipova-Henin match finish yesterday? Too much sexy on one court, but I will say I love that Justine. Great final set.

Is that what we're calling it now?

356 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:06:42am

re: #348 dentate

Israel is provoked into defending itself...

Those who do the provoking claim innocent victimhood...

Israel provides incontrovertible truth to the contrary...

The world ignores facts and evidence, condemns Israeli brutality...

And in other news, the sun rose in the east today...

Wouldn't it be better if Israel just mined the sea approaches to Gaza, and let that fact be publicly known?

Aren't there Gazan fisherman?

357 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:06:56am

re: #345 darthstar

I think they refused the Ashdod port because they didn't trust Israel to let them continue on to Gaza. Allowing an inspector on board wouldn't have impeded their progress. Maybe that was offered by Israel and refused. I don't know.

Obviously, Israel has the firepower to stop them from reaching shore, and I'm grateful for the fact that they didn't decide to just sink the flotilla at sea. This isn't the first flotilla that Israel has had to deal with. I don't understand why they chose military action this time and none of the others.

Um, because the military is responsible for enforcing the blockade, maybe?

Your ignorance is bone-deep.

And military ≠ "deadly force". That decision was taken by the "peace activists".

358 sagehen  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:07:18am

re: #60 Joo-LiZ

From the Muqata blog:
- A flotilla ship is being brought to the Ashdod port, under heavy guard. There are reportedly over 600 on board, and they don't want to be arrested, "quietly"
Another side of the story: The boats have been subdued. Israel is bringing the ships to Ashdod port, and is detaining activists. They have the option to go home, and leave it all behind them, or be detained.

If they were really trying to deliver "much needed humanitarian supplies," you'd think they wouldn't want 600 passengers filling up space.

359 SixDegrees  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:07:19am

re: #345 darthstar

According to the BBC, Turkey made an identical offer to accept the aid at one of their ports, and ensure that it reached Gaza.

This offer was also rejected.

See above. Anyone trying to claim that this incident wasn't deliberately staged and provoked is being intentionally ignorant.

360 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:07:26am

re: #346 SanFranciscoZionist

The links to his posts.

361 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:07:46am

re: #351 mich-again

Who could have predicted that "peace activists" on their way to Gaza would get violent? /

Of course they were going to attack the commandos. No one should be surprised at the outcome.

In the US it's called "suicide by cop".

362 mich-again  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:08:09am

re: #354 HoosierHoops

I just opened the pool in the backyard today and the moment I finished, the skies opened up and it started pouring cats and dogs.

363 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:08:37am

re: #348 dentate

Israel is provoked into defending itself...

Those who do the provoking claim innocent victimhood...

Israel provides incontrovertible truth to the contrary...

The world ignores facts and evidence, condemns Israeli brutality...

And in other news, the sun rose in the east today...

Wouldn't it be better if Israel just mined the sea approaches to Gaza, and let that fact be publicly known?

Yeah, mining the harbor would definitely cause an international incident. Enforcing a blockade is one thing, but going out and blowing up/sinking even SUPPOSEDLY "neutral" civilian merchant ships is going to get you in heap bigum trouble.

364 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:08:42am

re: #361 solomonpanting

In the US it's called "suicide by cop".

haha I think this is a different situation than "maniac meth dealer rushes a cop with a piece leved at him"

365 sattv4u2  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:08:56am

re: #362 mich-again

I just opened the pool in the backyard today and the moment I finished, the skies opened up and it started pouring cats and dogs.

I don't think cats like to swim all that much. better go help them out of the pool!

366 mich-again  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:08:58am

re: #361 solomonpanting

In the US it's called "suicide by cop".

Exactly.

367 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:09:24am

re: #361 solomonpanting

In the US it's called "suicide by cop".

Suicides by cop don't expect 72 virgins.

368 Renaissance_Man  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:09:38am

re: #352 darthstar

Agreed, my friend. By the way, I like the tennis racquet avatar. Did you watch the Sharipova-Henin match finish yesterday? Too much sexy on one court, but I will say I love that Justine. Great final set.

And then she went out to Sam Stosur. Hope I can catch some of the Stosur-Serena match. Take her down, Sam. Let's blow Roland Garros wide open.

369 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:09:44am

re: #362 mich-again

I just opened the pool in the backyard today and the moment I finished, the skies opened up and it started pouring cats and dogs.

My dogs love the pool. The cat likes running water...standing, not so much.

370 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:09:45am

re: #219 Obdicut

Correction: I do now know they refused inspections.

The USCG/USN wouldn't let a flotilla of ships dock anywhere remotely under their control without inspection. They'd board them. They'd probably be more lethal than the Israeli's were, as well.

They refused to let inspectors board at sea, as well as refusing to make port and be checked?

371 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:10:15am

re: #358 sagehen

If they were really trying to deliver "much needed humanitarian supplies," you'd think they wouldn't want 600 passengers filling up space.

yeah, next time they will threaten to blow them selves up in not allowed to pass... then what?

372 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:10:53am

re: #364 WindUpBird

haha I think this is a different situation than "maniac meth dealer peace activist rushes a cop IDF soldier with a piece leved peace bomb, peace knife at him"

373 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:10:59am

re: #227 darthstar

These flotillas have been going on for a few years now, and the people they attract are mostly non-violent types who want to see an end to the violence.

No. They attract people who believe that Israel is an illegitimate state.

374 mich-again  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:11:30am

And now, if/when Israelis find explosives packed in bags marked "Sugar", the meme will be that the Israeli's planted the evidence. Its a no-win.

375 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:11:34am

re: #358 sagehen

Those 600 were there to validate their own egos. We care deeply about the Paestinian people. We care so much in fact, that instead of following the rules and loading up with real aid, we're gonna fill the boat up with ourselves and get into it with the IDF.

376 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:11:54am

OT
If you are in SoCal, keep an eye on the sky. I hope to get a snapshot of these guys today. If I do I'll page it.

[Link: www.dailynews.com...]

[Link: condorsquadron.org...]

377 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:12:00am

re: #372 solomonpanting

If you want to reduce this to the dumbest common denominator, be my guest, I'm over here trying to learn something

378 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:12:32am

re: #370 SanFranciscoZionist

They refused to let inspectors board at sea, as well as refusing to make port and be checked?

Sorry. I meant that they refused inspection at a port.

379 sattv4u2  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:12:56am

re: #372 solomonpanting

You misunderstand. As I stated up thread, if you look closely at the video, the "peace activists" were merely welcoming the IDF on board with "peace pipes", but the "activists" thought instead of smoking them they were supposed to swing them

380 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:13:03am

re: #375 pingjockey

It was a protest, totally, that much is obvious, they were looking to provoke a thing.

381 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:13:10am

re: #367 MandyManners

Suicides by cop don't expect 72 virgins.

No, but with the differing explanations of this event, we can expect 72 versions.

382 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:13:14am

Tea Party!
Image: 610x.jpg

/

383 PhillyPretzel  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:13:16am

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Here is the latest from The Wall Street Journal.

384 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:13:18am

re: #235 philosophus invidius

No one said that everyone on board was attacking the soldiers. You think the guys waiting with metal rods were Israelis and grandmothers and Nobel Peace Prize winners?

As far as I can tell there was violence on one ship alone, the Mavi Marmara.

I'll even go so far as to say that the groups of earnest fucking Belgian grad students on the other boats seriously considered themselves to be on a mission of peaceful resistance.

Clearly, not everyone was on the same page with that, and they didn't come up with this plan in thirty-five seconds, while Yossi Abencassis was dropping in on them.

385 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:13:44am

re: #381 solomonpanting

No, but with the differing explanations of this event, we can expect 72 versions.

With one underlying theme.

386 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:13:55am

haha again with the 72 virgins stuff

This is why you can't have nice things

387 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:14:00am

re: #241 brookly red

I don't know if it was mentioned, but where are the ships now?

Last I heard, they were being towed into Haifa's port.

388 sattv4u2  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:14:20am

re: #377 WindUpBird

If you want to reduce this to the dumbest common denominator, be my guest, I'm over here trying to learn something

Hard to be taken as a serious "learner" when you start the post with "HAHA"

389 Summer Seale  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:14:44am

re: #287 pingjockey

There are 61 registered users on this here thread. Lotsa lurkers.

I was lurking but it's because I wrote something in the open thread earlier on.

Not much to say, really. I said it before the IDF video even came out: "Peace activists" don't attack troops. And if they do, they get what they deserve. The other boats didn't attack the soldiers and nobody was shot. So do I care if a few lunatics lost their lives because of their beliefs in some sort of invisible dragon they claim watches over us in the sky? As a rationalist atheist and humanist, no I don't. A few less violent religious fanatics today is a good mark in my book.

And no, I'm not impressed with most of the atheist movement who doesn't see it this way, but it's typical. I stand out from the crowd. People die every day. I weep for thousands of people who die because of religious violence every single day, or religious extremist ignorance. When Islamists get their asses kicked by Israel, I just have to shrug and say that the Allahu Akbar crowd had it coming - just as I do when violent right wing extremists shoot at cops and get a bullet in the head in this country as well.

They cease to become "protesters" when they pick up a weapon. That's their choice. Then again, they're idiots for believing in the crap they do.

390 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:14:48am

re: #383 PhillyPretzel

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Here is the latest from The Wall Street Journal.

Netanyahu's cancelled?!

391 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:15:01am

re: #379 sattv4u2

You misunderstand. As I stated up thread, if you look closely at the video, the "peace activists" were merely welcoming the IDF on board with "peace pipes", but the "activists" thought instead of smoking them they were supposed to swing them

Wait a second... I just watched the second video. Those people crawling down ropes, were they Israeli soldiers? And where where they coming from... the sky?

392 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:15:01am

The weather is awesome here in NY, by the way.

393 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:15:13am

Severe lightning storms here. I'm logging off in case the power goes out.

394 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:15:21am

re: #384 SanFranciscoZionist

So basically, there were Nice People Who Thought They Were Doing Good, but they were being played by the people spoiling for a fight?

395 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:15:32am

re: #248 darthstar

Silly of Israel to oblige, in my opinion. And they've justified their actions, as evidenced by the balanced opinions expressed here. I don't think the international community will agree with them, and I don't understand the enthusiasm some people have for this kind of military action. I just can't buy into it.

I don't have enthusiasm. Clearly, this went wrong in a variety of ways.

396 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:15:34am

Alright, I stayed far longer than I'd intended because you guys are just that addicting. Off to mow the yard now that the temperature has cooled off from last week. Enjoy the day, lizardfolk.

397 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:15:35am

Turkey must be held responsible for allowing a ship full of armed combatants to set sail.

398 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:15:36am

re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist

Last I heard, they were being towed into Haifa's port.

thank you.

399 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:15:40am

re: #386 WindUpBird

Check out No. 342.

400 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:15:51am

re: #339 efuseakay

Funny. You just proved him right.

Seriously, there are just too many posts that bear me out.

401 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:16:05am

re: #250 pingjockey

Damn, they are quick of the mark when it comes to condeming Israel.

They have boilerplate. It just prints out with the new date.

402 PhillyPretzel  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:16:37am

re: #390 MandyManners
Yes

403 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:16:44am

re: #389 Summer
Thanks for your reply. I was just commenting on the number and didn't expect a response! Thanks again.

404 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:16:46am

re: #367 MandyManners

Suicides by cop don't expect 72 virgins.

Here's one of those virgin seeking terrorists you're talking about.


Hedy Epstein (86)
St. Louis, Missouri, USA

Hedy was born in Freiburg, Germany on 8/15/1924, the only child of Ella & Hugo Wachenheimer. She lived in Kippenheim, 30 km north of Freiburg, where her father's side of the family had lived for generations. She left Germany at 14, in1939, on a Kindertransport (children's transport), to London, England - one of almost 10,000 mostly Jewish children.
Both her parents, as well as other family members, perished in Auschwitz in 1942. In July 1945, she returned to Germany to work for the American government, first with the U.S. Civil Censorship Division and then as a research analyst at the Nuremberg trial of the Nazi doctors who performed medical experiments on concentration camp inmates.
In May 1945, she arrived in the United States and quickly became involved in peace and social justice issues.
Since 2003, she has visited Israeli-occupied West Bank five times to witness the effects of Israel's occupation.

That's why I don't think this was a terrorist attack flotilla. And no, I don't think Hedy was throwing marbles or swinging a bat at the Israeli commandos...I'm assuming that was done by younger members of the flotilla, and probably young men.

405 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:16:50am

re: #393 Alouette

Severe lightning storms here. I'm logging off in case the power goes out.

Take care!

406 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:16:50am

re: #388 sattv4u2

Hard to be taken as a serious "learner" when you start the post with "HAHA"

Okay I guess I'll never laugh again because captain comma says so ;_;

407 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:16:55am

re: #347 transient

Israel previously had good relations with Turkey, but they have gone down hill of late, mostly because of increasing Islamism in the Turkish government. There have been several diplomatic incidents in the past year or two between the two countries. Things sound tenuous to me.

Evidently Turkey is providing cover for this outfit

The flotilla of nine ships sailing to Gaza with the intent of delivering aid to Palestinians in the Hamas-run territory was organized by IHH, a Turkish aid foundation which has ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, and Free Gaza, which describes itself as a human rights group.[18]

The Turkish IHH (Insani Yardim Vakfi - "humanitarian relief fund"), with a demonstrated anti-American orientation, has known links to global jihadi networks, openly supports Iran-backed Hamas and maintains close ties with the Muslim Brotherhood movement, a global umbrella Islamic organization for Hamas as well as mujahideen groups in Afghanistan.[19]

408 elimail  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:17:17am

Footage from the Mavi Marmara Including Injured Soldiers and Items Found On Board.

Youtube Video
409 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:17:21am

re: #401 SanFranciscoZionist

They have boilerplate. It just prints out with the new date.

Many members of the UN have delegates on 24-hour call in case Israel needs condemning for something or other.

410 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:17:29am

re: #394 WindUpBird

So basically, there were Nice People Who Thought They Were Doing Good, but they were being played by the people spoiling for a fight?

Yes.

412 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:17:55am

re: #359 SixDegrees

According to the BBC, Turkey made an identical offer to accept the aid at one of their ports, and ensure that it reached Gaza.

This offer was also rejected.

See above. Anyone trying to claim that this incident wasn't deliberately staged and provoked is being intentionally ignorant.

Exactly. The obvious purpose of these flotillas is to force an end to the Israeli blockade. Hamas has been firing their home-made rockets into Israel for years. They would undoubtedly like to have the professional-grade product from Iran and North Korea, among many others. Even a small (say, 5000 tons dwt) Mediterranean coastal freighter could carry 100,000 or more of these rockets.

413 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:17:56am

re: #404 darthstar

That's why I don't think this was a terrorist attack flotilla. And no, I don't think Hedy was throwing marbles or swinging a bat at the Israeli commandos...I'm assuming that was done by younger members of the flotilla, and probably young men.

There's also a US Navy vet who survived the Liberty attack. Yeah, a lot of people signed on for this without really thinking it through, I think.

414 sattv4u2  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:17:59am

re: #391 Walter L. Newton

Wait a second... I just watched the second video. Those people crawling down ropes, were they Israelis soldiers ZIONIST BIDERBERGER AGENTS ? And where where they coming from... the sky BLACK HELO'S?

415 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:18:01am

re: #262 darthstar

Hey, I'm not the one calling the flotilla a terrorist plot. Yes, there were Nobel winners, grandmothers, etc. on the ships. That's my point. (cue claims of 'human shield')

The flotilla was part of an international activist movement that has made itself the willing tool of a terrorist movement, I beg your pardon 'indigenous freedom resistance'. This is extensively documented. These folks are not nice people.

416 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:18:09am

re: #409 Cato the Elder

Many members of the UN have delegates on 24-hour call in case Israel needs condemning for something or other.

I asked this above... no answer...

Wait a second... I just watched the second video. Those people crawling down ropes, were they Israeli soldiers? And where where they coming from... the sky?

417 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:18:14am

re: #401 SanFranciscoZionist
That pisses me off in so many ways.

418 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:18:14am

re: #399 MandyManners

Check out No. 342.

Martyrdom ≠ 72-virgins look-at-the-muslims-and-their-dumb-beliefs meme that I've been hearing since 9/11

419 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:18:30am

re: #404 darthstar

Check out No. 342.

420 sattv4u2  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:18:39am

re: #406 WindUpBird

Okay I guess I'll never laugh again because captain comma says so ;_;

Laugh all you want, just don;t whine about not being "taken seriously" when starting a post with one

421 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:18:44am

re: #395 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't have enthusiasm. Clearly, this went wrong in a variety of ways.

I know...you're one of the more reasoned voices on this subject, and I appreciate your replies.

422 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:19:14am

re: #278 abolitionist

It's been pointed out to me that Jesus was Jewish. He has a number of followers.

That's true, but some of them, you'll forgive my saying so, are a little strange.

//

423 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:19:17am

re: #404 darthstar

That's why I don't think this was a terrorist attack flotilla. And no, I don't think Hedy was throwing marbles or swinging a bat at the Israeli commandos...I'm assuming that was done by younger members of the flotilla, and probably young men.

Oh, you mean those peace activists!

424 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:19:19am

re: #414 sattv4u2

I was asking a serious question...

I just watched the second video. Those people crawling down ropes, were they Israeli soldiers? And where where they coming from... the sky?

425 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:19:30am

re: #404 darthstar

That's why I don't think this was a terrorist attack flotilla. And no, I don't think Hedy was throwing marbles or swinging a bat at the Israeli commandos...I'm assuming that was done by younger members of the flotilla, and probably young men.

Sure. It couldn't possibly be both a gaggle of naive "peace activists" and a gang of committed terror martyrs, could it? That just wouldn't compute in your mind.

426 Mich-again  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:19:51am

re: #382 Killgore Trout

That photo needs an Elvis inspired photoshop.

427 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:20:48am

re: #287 pingjockey

There are 61 registered users on this here thread. Lotsa lurkers.

Some of them probably don't want to step in.

Some are probably observers for left-wing sites.

Many are undoubtedly stalkers, hoping Charles will say something anti-Israel that they can chew on for months to come.

428 sattv4u2  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:20:56am

re: #424 Walter L. Newton

I was asking a serious question...

I just watched the second video. Those people crawling down ropes, were they Israeli soldiers? And where where they coming from... the sky?

Israeli commadoes

Seems as if the "peace flotilla" was ordered to stop or head to an Israeli port for ispection under the blockade issued (which it didn't) and told it would be boarded (which it did)

429 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:20:59am

re: #408 elimail

Footage from the Mavi Marmara Including Injured Soldiers and Items Found On Board.


[Video]

What a bunch of idiots to provoke a confrontation with that arsenal.

430 cenotaphium  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:21:07am

re: #425 Cato the Elder

Sure. It couldn't possibly be both a gaggle of naive "peace activists" and a gang of committed terror martyrs, could it? That just wouldn't compute in your mind.

I thought that was what he was trying to say?

431 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:21:08am

re: #420 sattv4u2

Laugh all you want, just don;t whine about not being "taken seriously" when starting a post with one

Wow look at that straw man oh so high oh satt you rascal you

To repeat, because you clearly are reading some different Windupbird in your own head, I was tired of the dumbfuck reduction "suicide by cop" thing. Hopefully that is clear :)

432 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:21:19am

re: #424 Walter L. Newton

I was asking a serious question...

I just watched the second video. Those people crawling down ropes, were they Israeli soldiers? And where where they coming from... the sky?

It's the Monte Carlo traffic police being inserted by skyhooks

433 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:21:27am

re: #404 darthstar

That's why I don't think this was a terrorist attack flotilla. And no, I don't think Hedy was throwing marbles or swinging a bat at the Israeli commandos...I'm assuming that was done by younger members of the flotilla, and probably young men.

Did the Israeli soldiers board this boat without permission?

434 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:21:34am

re: #426 Mich-again

That photo needs an Elvis inspired photoshop.

Lol. I miss those.

435 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:22:13am

re: #424 Walter L. Newton

I was asking a serious question...

I just watched the second video. Those people crawling down ropes, were they Israeli soldiers? And where where they coming from... the sky?

Yep. Flying Jooos.

436 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:22:20am

re: #425 Cato the Elder

Sure. It couldn't possibly be both a gaggle of naive "peace activists" and a gang of committed terror martyrs, could it? That just wouldn't compute in your mind.

Inconceivable!

437 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:22:58am

re: #425 Cato the Elder

Sure. It couldn't possibly be both a gaggle of naive "peace activists" and a gang of committed terror martyrs, could it? That just wouldn't compute in your mind.

Well, that's the first time I've seen you recognize that maybe everyone on board wasn't a death-deserving killer...you're coming along nicely.

And with that, I'm out of here...sun shining, beach beckoning, and dogs sleeping (that means they want to go to the beach, as does everything else they do).

Play nice everyone.

438 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:22:59am

re: #433 Walter L. Newton

Did the Israeli soldiers board this boat without permission?

You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know what's going on.

Just read the thread, Walter.

439 Mich-again  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:23:08am

re: #425 Cato the Elder

Sure. It couldn't possibly be both a gaggle of naive "peace activists" and a gang of committed terror martyrs, could it? That just wouldn't compute in your mind.

Are you implying that these folks might actually consider using human shields?? Say it aint so. /

440 transient  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:23:50am

re: #433 Walter L. Newton

Did the Israeli soldiers board this boat without permission?

Do "peace" activists attack soldiers with metal rods and slingshots?

These people are not followers of Ghandi or MLK.
This is not the Exodus.

441 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:24:06am

re: #437 darthstar

Well, that's the first time I've seen you recognize that maybe everyone on board wasn't a death-deserving killer...you're coming along nicely.

And with that, I'm out of here...sun shining, beach beckoning, and dogs sleeping (that means they want to go to the beach, as does everything else they do).

Play nice everyone.

You truly are an imbecile. Where did I say anything about "everybody on board"?

443 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:24:32am

re: #315 darthstar

At least it didn't have an American flag. That would have made this a little more awkward.

I think some of the ones that surrendered peacefully were flying U.S. flags. They let themselves be towed like relatively sane people.

444 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:24:56am

re: #317 The Shadow Do

My wife and family as well

Shuls, JCCs, etc., are gonna be on high alert.

445 darthstar  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:25:00am

re: #262 darthstar

Hey, I'm not the one calling the flotilla a terrorist plot. Yes, there were Nobel winners, grandmothers, etc. on the ships. That's my point. (cue claims of 'human shield')

re: #439 Mich-again

Are you implying that these folks might actually consider using human shields?? Say it aint so. /

Thanks.

446 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:25:03am

re: #437 darthstar

Well, that's the first time I've seen you recognize that maybe everyone on board wasn't a death-deserving killer...you're coming along nicely.

And with that, I'm out of here...sun shining, beach beckoning, and dogs sleeping (that means they want to go to the beach, as does everything else they do).

Play nice everyone.

Thanks, Darth. A beach, ya say? Enjoy. All we have are DPS checkpoints, a mall full of yuppie larvae, and some orange traffic cones.

447 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:25:19am

re: #438 Obdicut

You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know what's going on.

Just read the thread, Walter.

Thanks for the advice... ass-wipe... playing the fucking thread police again, gee Obdi, what makes you so damn important? And what makes me not give two shits?

448 webevintage  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:25:33am

I'm assuming that at the moment there is no way to actually know who killed those who are dead. It seems like it was such a melee that the peace dudes could have killed each other.
Right?

(and really? "peace activists"....if they had been there for peaceful reasons they would have calmly allowed the soldiers with paint guns to board and search the cargo. My benefit of the doubt goes with Israel on this one after they found those weapons being smuggled in earlier.)

449 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:25:43am

re: #440 transient

Do "peace" activists attack soldiers with metal rods and slingshots?

These people are not followers of Ghandi or MLK.
This is not the Exodus.

You didn't answer my question, did you?

450 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:25:48am

re: #429 Killgore Trout

What a bunch of idiots to provoke a confrontation with that arsenal.

Pro slingshots with glass marbles are serious weapons. No match for military stuff, of course, but you can easily kill someone with a slingshot like that, at least cause serious injury.

451 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:26:27am

re: #321 JasonA

Eh... I think reports started trickling in around midnight to 1 AM? Something like that.

I was seeing reports of deaths on the Mavi Marmara on Twitter by six o'clock Pacific standard time.

452 DaddyLawBucks  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:27:10am

I don't have any particularly good ideas right now, but it does seem that there may have been a better solution to this problem given that the Israelis had a few days advance warning to think this through. And no, I do not support the "peace-nicks" or boat freeks in any way. They were clearly working to support Hamas.

453 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:27:20am

re: #450 Charles

Pro slingshots with glass marbles are serious weapons. No match for military stuff, of course, but you can easily kill someone with a slingshot like that, at least cause serious injury.

Ok... I did just jump into this thread, and then I go out and find some articles... and I read this...

"Dozens of activists and six Israeli soldiers were wounded in the bloody predawn confrontation in international waters. "

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

International waters... did Israel jump the gun here?

454 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:27:37am

re: #447 Walter L. Newton

Your 'arrive in thread and breathlessly ask what's going on' schtick is lame and annoying-- more so when it's a catspaw, but always at least annoying.

There's nothing 'thread-policy' about telling you to have the common decency to read the thread rather than doing your Donny impression, Walter.

Thanks for the personal attacks, they're as relevant as always.

455 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:28:02am

re: #454 Obdicut

Your 'arrive in thread and breathlessly ask what's going on' schtick is lame and annoying-- more so when it's a catspaw, but always at least annoying.

There's nothing 'thread-policy' about telling you to have the common decency to read the thread rather than doing your Donny impression, Walter.

Thanks for the personal attacks, they're as relevant as always.

You welcome.

456 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:28:04am

The confrontation was desired, concocted and planned for. This is the kind of confrontation and publicity the 'protesters' were hoping for. What they didn't count on were the plethora of Israeli videos and other recordings of what transpired.

Given the nature of the incident, the reaction from western nations has been remarkably muted. No doubt the Israelis made clear to them just who and what they dealing with.

457 transient  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:28:59am

No one said anything about everyone on board, or for that matter all of the ships being violent. Only one of the ships had passengers that attacked the Israelis.

Other ships were populated by, presumably, a combination of the naive, the well meaning, and those who were not able/ willing to commit violence but wanted to damage Israel politically. Presumably the nonviolent passengers also comprised a combination of those who knew there were terrorists/ those prepared to provoke a confrontation, and those who did not.

458 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:29:00am

re: #451 SanFranciscoZionist

Okay. It first came up here at midnight Eastern.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

459 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:29:01am

re: #437 darthstar

Well, that's the first time I've seen you recognize that maybe everyone on board wasn't a death-deserving killer...you're coming along nicely.

Sorta similar to those on some big airplanes who, after taking over control of said planes, had no idea they were going to crash into tall buildings. Just a bunch of dupes.

460 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:29:31am

re: #452 daddylawbucks

I don't have any particularly good ideas right now, but it does seem that there may have been a better solution to this problem given that the Israelis had a few days advance warning to think this through. And no, I do not support the "peace-nicks" or boat freeks in any way. They were clearly working to support Hamas.

The best solution would have been for the ship to go to Ashdod. Period.

461 McSpiff  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:29:59am

re: #452 daddylawbucks

I don't have any particularly good ideas right now, but it does seem that there may have been a better solution to this problem given that the Israelis had a few days advance warning to think this through. And no, I do not support the "peace-nicks" or boat freeks in any way. They were clearly working to support Hamas.

Truthfully, I agree. I haven't had a chance to send this video to anyone I know with proper boarding/interdiction training, but I'll be posting their replies when I do.

I mean are we seriously surprised that apparently 'unarmed', pro-hamas types tried to kill IDF operators?

462 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:30:28am

re: #323 cenotaphium

In the local press, I keep reading that this incident is especially bad if it sours the relationship between Turkey and Israel, because Turkey is supposedly one of the friendlier states in the area. Is this true? Or are we just talking about the results of a very weighted scale, where "not currently killing us" is considered friendly?

It's a somewhat weighted scale, but Turkey and Israel have a largely healthy relationship. Turkey is not an Arab nation, they're officially very secular, and they have a long history of treating their Jewish community very well. They mostly don't care if Jews want to set up a little country in the outskirts what they still think of as their old empire. There's a lot of tourism, some trade, some deals.

463 McSpiff  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:30:39am

re: #460 Gang of One

The best solution would have been for the ship to go to Ashdod. Period.

Yes, the best solution would have been for the bad guys to not be bad guys. Unfortunately that's just wishful thinking.

464 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:31:24am

re: #453 Walter L. Newton

Ok... I did just jump into this thread, and then I go out and find some articles... and I read this...

"Dozens of activists and six Israeli soldiers were wounded in the bloody predawn confrontation in international waters. "

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

International waters... did Israel jump the gun here?

A la 1967, I believe.

If Israel thought there was cause to fear violence/terror from these ships, she has the right to make the determination the ships were not carrying weapons or dangerous persons.

465 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:31:30am

27.05.10:


Israel on Thursday said a flotilla of activist aid boats bound for Gaza was an "outright provocation," saying however that the organizers of the aid convoy were invited to unload their cargo at the Israeli port of Ashdod, where it would be transferred to Gaza following an inspection.
...
Defense Minister Ehud Barak spoke with the foreign ministers from several countries on Thursday, while the Director-General of the Foreign Ministry, Yossi Gal, individually summoned the representatives of the countries participating in the aid convoy. The two made it clear that there is no shortage in humanitarian aid to Gaza, as food, fuel and supplies are regularly transferred into Gaza by international organizations.
[Link: www.haaretz.com...]
466 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:31:32am

re: #452 daddylawbucks

There is almost always a better solution. It's figuring it out and executing it in a timely fashion that's the tricky part.

I think Turkey's offer to inspect and forward the aid represented a very good solution for the activists, but it denied them their PR move so they rejected it.

467 cenotaphium  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:31:44am

re: #450 Charles

Pro slingshots with glass marbles are serious weapons. No match for military stuff, of course, but you can easily kill someone with a slingshot like that, at least cause serious injury.

The IRA used them. Uncertain to what effect. I've used top line ones myself & I wouldn't say you could kill someone outright, but certainly blind them, give them a concussion or helluva nasty wound. And, of course, it fires quicker than you might think, so cumulatively a very nasty weapon.

468 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:31:47am

re: #463 McSpiff

Yes, the best solution would have been for the bad guys to not be bad guys. Unfortunately that's just wishful thinking.

Yeah, you got that right, bro. Sigh ...
/assuming you are a bro and not a sistah ...

469 jordash1212  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:31:49am

Israel offered to take that aid into Gaza via the landroute and clearly voiced that.
The deaths were unnecessary, and I only wish that Israel had thought up of a better way to suppress the flotilla and bring them into Ashdod. It's an unneeded diplomatic and PR mess. That said, those protesters wanted to go for the cheap political stunt, and they paid for it in blood and less aid for the people in Gaza.

470 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:32:17am

re: #343 MandyManners

Are the Somalis Muslims?

Yes. They tend to be treated very badly in Egypt, however. Some of them figure if they can apply for refugee status in Israel, things will be better.

471 transient  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:33:05am

re: #449 Walter L. Newton

You didn't answer my question, did you?

Your question is being ignored because it is either obtuse or deliberately provocative. Watch the videos. Your answer is there. If you are being deliberately provocative, you do not merit an answer.

472 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:33:13am

re: #453 Walter L. Newton

International waters... did Israel jump the gun here?

Nope. The whole "international waters" objection is a canard. Blockade enforcement is perfect permissible in international waters.

473 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:33:27am

re: #356 MandyManners

Aren't there Gazan fisherman?

Yeah. Probably not a great idea to mine the fishing lanes.

474 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:33:48am

re: #467 cenotaphium

The IRA used them. Uncertain to what effect. I've used top line ones myself & I wouldn't say you could kill someone outright, but certainly blind them, give them a concussion or helluva nasty wound. And, of course, it fires quicker than you might think, so cumulatively a very nasty weapon.

It depends on where you hit someone. Slingshots have definitely killed people.

475 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:34:00am

re: #360 MandyManners

The links to his posts.

I was there.

476 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:34:10am

re: #464 researchok

A la 1967, I believe.

If Israel thought there was cause to fear violence/terror from these ships, she has the right to make the determination the ships were not carrying weapons or dangerous persons.

Is that a law or something? A right... under what rules, laws, conventions? Can you board a ship in international water just because you have a feeling there could be a problem?

477 brennant  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:34:39am

How long before rockets start landing in Israel?

478 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:35:07am

re: #469 jordash1212

Israel offered to take that aid into Gaza via the landroute and clearly voiced that.
The deaths were unnecessary, and I only wish that Israel had thought up of a better way to suppress the flotilla and bring them into Ashdod. It's an unneeded diplomatic and PR mess. That said, those protesters wanted to go for the cheap political stunt, and they paid for it in blood and less aid for the people in Gaza.

It has never been about aid to Gaza. Over the years, the flotilla organizers have made no secret of their support of violence against Israel and their support of terror..

They just don't like it when Jews fight back. They seem to have a real problem with that.

479 cenotaphium  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:35:11am

re: #474 Charles

It depends on where you hit someone. Slingshots have definitely killed people.

Oh, don't give me that David & Goliath story.. ;)

Agreed though. I meant that it's not a very reliable weapon in that regard. "Stopping power" considered.

480 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:35:22am

re: #474 Charles

It depends on where you hit someone. Slingshots have definitely killed people.

Goliath, for example.

Slings were a military weapon for millennia.

481 dugmartsch  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:35:33am

Despite getting a jewish grade school education (followed by a catholic high school education, long story) I'd say it's been the commentary here that's really fundamentally changed the way that I view the Isreali-Palestinian conflict.

Here's an email I just wrote to Andy Sullivan about his conflating the IRA resistance with the plight of a Jewish state in the hope that he might have a change of heart as well:

Your analogy between the IRA and Hamas trivializes the threat posed by the forces manipulating the Palestinians to such an extent that it renders the analogy meaningless, and detrimental to a full understanding of the situation.

The IRA was not recently at the nexus of a ferocious and massive war, which, though brief, attempted to exterminate their enemy. The IRA did not have the aid of several powerful nearby governments who were actively attempting to acquire nuclear capabilities. The IRA wasn't even willing to use it's own members as living bombs.

In short, the IRA was no existential threat to the state of England, and was treated as the tragic, though non-existential, threat that it was. The IRA was no one's proxy, the same cannot be said of the Palestinians.

Hamas, the Palestinians, and their many allies represent an existential threat to the state of Isreal and have made modern credible attempts to carry out that genocidal vision. They continue on that mission presently and show no signs of being even momentarily deterred.

The situations couldn't be any more different, and that is exactly why a different response is necessary.

482 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:35:35am

re: #476 Walter L. Newton

Is that a law or something? A right... under what rules, laws, conventions? Can you board a ship in international water just because you have a feeling there could be a problem?

If they're on a course that takes them right to your shores and they've expressed their intent to do so pretty clearly then yeah.

483 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:36:03am

re: #477 brennant

How long before rockets start stop landing in Israel?


//Had to.

484 brennant  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:36:24am

re: #483 Gang of One

true. true.

485 elimail  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:36:44am

Peaceful Arab and Israeli leftist students from Haifa University demonstrate against Israel.

Image: 700_1a84b7fa335b79a17ce1d010c5c7113b.JPG

486 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:36:46am

re: #391 Walter L. Newton

Wait a second... I just watched the second video. Those people crawling down ropes, were they Israeli soldiers? And where where they coming from... the sky?

Chopper.

487 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:36:46am

re: #474 Charles

It depends on where you hit someone. Slingshots have definitely killed people.

As have slings.

488 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:37:28am

re: #394 WindUpBird

So basically, there were Nice People Who Thought They Were Doing Good, but they were being played by the people spoiling for a fight?

Well, not so nice people, who would realize they weren't doing good if they weren't so fucking stupid...but yes, they were played big time. And they will, for the most part, never realize it.

489 transient  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:37:31am

The use of slingshots is a calculated maneuver, creating the David vs. Goliath imagery that has worked for the Palestinians well in the past (especially during the intifadas). I am sure they could have arranged for firearms, but the the PR value would have been diminished. This way, the IDF looks more like bullies fighting "innocent unarmed activists."

This is a product of Pallywood design studios.

490 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:37:33am

re: #482 JasonA

If they're on a course that takes them right to your shores and they've expressed their intent to do so pretty clearly then yeah.

I have no idea... that's why I am asking... I am trying to find the international law that permits this...

491 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:37:44am

re: #479 cenotaphium

Oh, don't give me that David & Goliath story.. ;)

Agreed though. I meant that it's not a very reliable weapon in that regard. "Stopping power" considered.

Slingshots are used for hunting. Inside15-25 yards they are indeed deadly.

492 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:38:28am

re: #397 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

Turkey must be held responsible for allowing a ship full of armed combatants to set sail.

Turkey can't let people sail out of their ports with lead pipes on board because they might get into a fight with Israeli commandos?

493 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:38:30am

re: #476 Walter L. Newton

Is that a law or something? A right... under what rules, laws, conventions? Can you board a ship in international water just because you have a feeling there could be a problem?

Shiplord Kirel posted this link earlier:
SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, andafter prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.
[Link: www.icrc.org...]

494 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:39:04am

re: #474 Charles

It depends on where you hit someone. Slingshots have definitely killed people.

Goliath come to mind...

495 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:39:32am

re: #493 jaunte

Shiplord Kirel posted this link earlier:
SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, andafter prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.
[Link: www.icrc.org...]

That's what I have been asking... I have been trying to google something to that extent... couldn't find it... thanks.

496 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:39:46am

re: #490 Walter L. Newton

I have no idea... that's why I am asking... I am trying to find the international law that permits this...

Were we permitted to board a Lebanese ship during the Cuban Missile Crisis?

497 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:40:10am

Clarification Regarding Number of Injuries and Casualties in Today’s Incident at Sea, 31 May 2010

The following is a summary of the number of injuries and casualties in today’s incident in which IDF naval forces were met with extremely violent resistance on board the Mavi Marmara. According to the most recent reports, a total of seven soldiers were wounded – four soldiers were moderately wounded, of which two were initially in critical condition, as well as an additional three soldiers who were lightly wounded. Among the violent activists, there were nine casualties as a result of the soldiers defending themselves.

It should be emphasized that both the State of Israel and the IDF made repeated calls to the flotilla, telling them that all goods and humanitarian aid could be transferred according to the secure and approved methods in place today, as is done on a near daily basis. Unfortunately, this was not the case. IDF naval forces were met with premeditated violence, evident by the activists’ use of clubs, metal rods, and knives, as well as the firing of two weapons stolen from the soldiers, causing for defensive action on behalf of the forces who felt their lives were endangered.

498 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:40:15am

re: #474 Charles

It depends on where you hit someone. Slingshots have definitely killed people.

I've known those who use them for small game hunting. Absolutely dangerous but the perfect weapon of choice for this bit of theater. Sure to get the disproportionate response rebuke.

499 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:40:16am

re: #404 darthstar

That's why I don't think this was a terrorist attack flotilla. And no, I don't think Hedy was throwing marbles or swinging a bat at the Israeli commandos...I'm assuming that was done by younger members of the flotilla, and probably young men.

Hedy is committed to the Palestinian cause, and no amount of violence coming from Hamas has ever caused her to change her mind. Yes, she is an old lady and a Holocaust survivor, but she will use her voice to defend those who did swing bats. And her age, and her past, make her a better weapon than a lead pipe.

(She's a local.)

500 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:40:40am

re: #490 Walter L. Newton

I have no idea... that's why I am asking... I am trying to find the international law that permits this...

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994

Sec. V (a)
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
501 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:41:03am

re: #496 JasonA

Were we permitted to board a Lebanese ship during the Cuban Missile Crisis?

I have been looking for/asking about actual law... Jaunte pointed out to me that Shiplord Kirel posted the information up thread... I got it... thanks.

502 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:41:11am

re: #490 Walter L. Newton

I have no idea... that's why I am asking... I am trying to find the international law that permits this...

Here you go.

503 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:41:23am

re: #476 Walter L. Newton

Is that a law or something? A right... under what rules, laws, conventions? Can you board a ship in international water just because you have a feeling there could be a problem?

The right to preemeptive self defense is well established, legally.

I suspect maritime law reflects the same. If a nation can cross borders to defend herself, I don't see how internationals waters would not negate the concept.

For example, recent events pertaining to piracy also took place in international waters, sometimes by nations not involved in a particular conflict/event.

504 Hieronymus Bosch  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:41:28am

Maybe this is the wrong forum to even suggest this sort of thing, but shouldn't Israel's acts be viewed in the context of the fact that the attack against the aid ships occurred in context of enforcing an unspeakably brutal and blockade against Gaza (a sort of "collective punishment" against Gaza's civilians for voting Hamas into power)? Even if within a certain limited prism we could make a coherent argument that the IDF's attack of the aid boats was "justified," did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?

505 Summer Seale  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:41:29am

Graphic to pass around, if you think it's any good. Just made it:

[Link: summerseale.com...]

506 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:41:30am

Check out Andrew Breitbart today:

[Link: twitter.com...]

507 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:41:37am

re: #500 shiplord kirel

Thanks... got it... Jaunte showed me you info...

508 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:41:43am

re: #506 Charles

Check out Andrew Breitbart today:

[Link: twitter.com...]

Do I have to?

509 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:42:03am

re: #500 shiplord kirel

This clause appears to allow a lot of leeway:

(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy's intelligence system

510 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:43:46am

I'm pleased and encouraged that POTUS responded as he did... so far. He didn't accuse the Israelis of ' acting stupidly ', and he is asking for information. Good reaction.
That the Irish poet laureate was on board this ship shows the extent to which Hamas will take their human shield program./
Does anyone know if this emergency UN meeting will be televised? Should be a real production.

511 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:43:51am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Maybe this is the wrong forum to even suggest this sort of thing, but shouldn't Israel's acts be viewed in the context of the fact that the attack against the aid ships occurred in context of enforcing an unspeakably brutal and blockade against Gaza (a sort of "collective punishment" against Gaza's civilians for voting Hamas into power)? Even if within a certain limited prism we could make a coherent argument that the IDF's attack of the aid boats was "justified," did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?

So you do understand that Hamas is in power in Gaza, right? You know, that group that's sworn to destroy Israel, and shows absolutely no sign of moderating their position? Suicide bombers ring a bell?

Israel completely withdrew from Gaza, and handed over control to the Palestinians, who promptly voted in a terrorist government that exists in an open state of war against Israel.

The blockade is necessary and legal.

512 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:44:18am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Maybe this is the wrong forum to even suggest this sort of thing, but shouldn't Israel's acts be viewed in the context of the fact that the attack against the aid ships occurred in context of enforcing an unspeakably brutal and blockade against Gaza (a sort of "collective punishment" against Gaza's civilians for voting Hamas into power)? Even if within a certain limited prism we could make a coherent argument that the IDF's attack of the aid boats was "justified," did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?

Go away.

513 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:44:32am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Maybe this is the wrong forum to even suggest this sort of thing, but shouldn't Israel's acts be viewed in the context of the fact that the attack against the aid ships occurred in context of enforcing an unspeakably brutal and blockade against Gaza (a sort of "collective punishment" against Gaza's civilians for voting Hamas into power)? Even if within a certain limited prism we could make a coherent argument that the IDF's attack of the aid boats was "justified," did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?

Well, this is a reality-based forum.

514 SixDegrees  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:44:32am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

No.

515 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:44:50am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Idiot

516 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:45:42am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch
Israel was in the process of escorting the aid to another Israeli port where it would be transported to the Gazan people. The problem is, getting the weapons out of the cargo first was a definite priority.
Israel is dealing with people who have put bombs in cadavers in ambulances in order to get them inside the gates of Israeli hospitals. You can't be too careful.

517 webevintage  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:46:20am

re: #506 Charles

Check out Andrew Breitbart today:

[Link: twitter.com...]

Is he drunk twittering again?

518 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:46:29am

re: #511 Charles

So you do understand that Hamas is in power in Gaza, right? You know, that group that's sworn to destroy Israel, and shows absolutely no sign of moderating their position? Suicide bombers ring a bell?

Israel completely withdrew from Gaza, and handed over control to the Palestinians, who promptly voted in a terrorist government that exists in an open state of war against Israel.

The blockade is necessary and legal.

Not to mention the reality that there is no real humanitarian crisis.

As they have since 1967, the Israelis are providing all the Gazans needs and then some.

519 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:47:01am

re: #513 jaunte

Well, this is a reality-based forum.

I regret that I have but one up-ding to give you.

520 Spare O'Lake  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:47:12am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

No. The blockade is necessitated and mandated by the fact that Hamas imports weapons which it then fires at Israeli towns. That is the sole reason for the blockade, which would not otherwise be necessary. Period. Full stop.

521 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:47:32am

re: #440 transient

Do "peace" activists attack soldiers with metal rods and slingshots?

These people are not followers of Ghandi or MLK.
This is not the Exodus.

"Ghandi or MLK." Wasn't that the left side of the infield for the Angels? Are metal bats verboten?

522 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:48:00am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

You can get answers that you like to these questions and more over at Kos today. Perhaps you'd enjoy the company over at this recommended diary: "Israel massacres unarmed peace activists."

523 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:48:19am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Maybe this is the wrong forum to even suggest this sort of thing, but shouldn't Israel's acts be viewed in the context of the fact that the attack against the aid ships occurred in context of enforcing an unspeakably brutal and blockade against Gaza (a sort of "collective punishment" against Gaza's civilians for voting Hamas into power)? Even if within a certain limited prism we could make a coherent argument that the IDF's attack of the aid boats was "justified," did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?

What attack on aid ships? The IDF didn't attack any ship. They sent in a boarding party and it was the IDF boarding party that was immediately attacked with metal pipes, knives, you name it. Some of them were wearing gas masks at the time of the attack. If one were to study the video even more you would find that many of the IDF boarding party showed a great deal of restraint even while being pummeled with the heave metal pipes.

524 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:48:42am

re: #477 brennant

How long before rockets start landing in Israel?

Have they ever stopped completely?

525 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:48:58am

re: #523 Gus 802

Heavy metal peace wands...

526 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:49:05am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Maybe this is the wrong forum to even suggest this sort of thing, but shouldn't Israel's acts be viewed in the context of the fact that the attack against the aid ships occurred in context of enforcing an unspeakably brutal and blockade against Gaza (a sort of "collective punishment" against Gaza's civilians for voting Hamas into power)? Even if within a certain limited prism we could make a coherent argument that the IDF's attack of the aid boats was "justified," did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?

I bet you wrote all that just to look like an stupid on purpose? Right?

527 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:49:42am

re: #520 Spare O'Lake

No. The blockade is necessitated and mandated by the fact that Hamas imports weapons which it then fires at Israeli towns. That is the sole reason for the blockade, which would not otherwise be necessary. Period. Full stop.

And that is why the Egyptians are destroying tunnels into Gaza. It isn't as if they are smuggling toilet paper. They are smuggling weapons and explosives.

Israel has not blockaded aid into Gaza. They just want to inspect that aid first, a not unreasonable request.

528 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:49:54am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Maybe this is the wrong forum to even suggest this sort of thing, but shouldn't Israel's acts be viewed in the context of the fact that the attack against the aid ships occurred in context of enforcing an unspeakably brutal and blockade against Gaza (a sort of "collective punishment" against Gaza's civilians for voting Hamas into power)? Even if within a certain limited prism we could make a coherent argument that the IDF's attack of the aid boats was "justified," did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?

Ahem. "Aid ships." Riiight.

Gaza is blockaded because otherwise it would be a port of entry for SCUD missiles to be used against Israel.

Israel allows food, medicine and other supplies to enter on a daily basis. No one is starving to death in Gaza. Israel also allows Gazans to cross the border for legitimate purposes, and takes emergency medical cases for treatment in Israeli hospitals. So much for the "unspeakably brutal blockade".

Gaza was made judenrein by Israel in 2005. Hamas was elected in 2006. Attacks from Gaza have been ongoing ever since.

You may well want to peddle your bullshit on some other blog.

529 transient  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:50:15am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Maybe this is the wrong forum to even suggest this sort of thing, but shouldn't Israel's acts be viewed in the context of the fact that the attack against the aid ships occurred in context of enforcing an unspeakably brutal and blockade against Gaza (a sort of "collective punishment" against Gaza's civilians for voting Hamas into power)? Even if within a certain limited prism we could make a coherent argument that the IDF's attack of the aid boats was "justified," did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?

No. Hamas is a declared enemy of Israel and they are in a state of war. As such, a blockade/ siege is legal under international law. You speak of "unspeakably brutal blockade." What brutality? On this one instance, a few people who were offering armed, brutal, bloody resistance were killed. That's hardly brutality on Israel's part.

Israel allows an enormous amount of humanitarian aid to pass into Gaza weekly. Israel does not allow the passage of weapons and materials that are likely to be used for Hamas's war effort. This is entirely legal. No one would ask any nation to supply a mortal enemy with anything--unless that nation is Israel.

The blockade is not an "evil ultra-right wing conspiracy." It is supported by both the Israeli right and the Labor party. This isn't "collective punishment" because Israel doesn't like the way Gaza voted. This is a military act being enforced because the government of Gaza is an enemy entity.

530 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:50:34am

re: #523 Gus 802

What attack on aid ships? The IDF didn't attack any ship. They sent in a boarding party and it was the IDF boarding party that was immediately attacked with metal pipes, knives, you name it. Some of them were wearing gas masks at the time of the attack. If one were to study the video even more you would find that many of the IDF boarding party showed a great deal of restraint even while being pummeled with the heave metal pipes.

3 pointer.

531 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:50:34am

re: #525 jaunte

Heavy metal peace wands...

Yeah, the new weapon of choice for "pacifists."

532 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:50:46am

re: #525 jaunte

Heavy metal peace wands...

Good juan, er ... one, Juante.
//Martinis kicking in now ...

533 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:51:33am

re: #479 cenotaphium

Oh, don't give me that David & Goliath story.. ;)

Agreed though. I meant that it's not a very reliable weapon in that regard. "Stopping power" considered.

All it takes is one lucky shot.

534 ryannon  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:52:06am

re: #342 shiplord kirel

Video Shows Flotilla Extremists’ Incitement

That side of the story sure isn't getting any play here in France. In in the EU, I would wager.

535 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:52:52am

re: #534 ryannon
Les Carbecues in 5.....4......3.....

536 Sacred Plants  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:53:00am

Typical instance of descensus praecox. You don´t run down a rope as if it was burning, you walk it down at controlled speed and establish contact with those beneath you before you attempt to ground. Apparently stopping above their heads to be able to make decisions including the option to walk back up the rope was not part of the training, as indicated by the fact that siginicantly more rope was thrown out than necessary for a climber to reach the ground. Which may work to interact with pirats but not with an angry crowd concerned about their sovereignty.

537 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:54:30am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Oh, go fuck yourself. And, go to KOS and HuffPo to do it.

538 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:55:26am

Reaction is measured in the secular democracy that is Turkey ..../cough/
[Link: www.jpost.com...]

539 abolitionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:56:05am

re: #481 dugmartsch

[snip] The IRA did not have the aid of several powerful nearby governments who were actively attempting to acquire nuclear capabilities.[snip]

Downplaying your "nearby" qualifier, I'll name three. Libya, Syria, N.Korea.

540 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:56:09am

re: #534 ryannon

That side of the story sure isn't getting any play here in France. In in the EU, I would wager.

It won't. Unfortunately it all falls back to the default positions. The poseurs will see this as an opportunity to vilify Israel (and Jews) along with the United States.

And I will repeat. European nations took weeks to react against Iran (if one could call it a reaction) after the election day murders. In this case, the poseurs have reacted within 24 hours.

541 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:56:45am

re: #538 tradewind

10,000 marchers with printed banners. That was fast.
/

542 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:57:15am

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Even if within a certain limited prism we could make a coherent argument that the IDF's attack of the aid boats was "justified," did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?

"The extreme right-wing."?
Hamas Again

In Spanish:
Jamas Again

In English:
Never Again

543 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:57:21am

re: #536 Sacred Plants

Typical instance of descensus praecox. You don´t run down a rope as if it was burning, you walk it down at controlled speed and establish contact with those beneath you before you attempt to ground. Apparently stopping above their heads to be able to make decisions including the option to walk back up the rope was not part of the training, as indicated by the fact that siginicantly more rope was thrown out than necessary for a climber to reach the ground. Which may work to interact with pirats but not with an angry crowd concerned about their sovereignty.

Go smoke another doobie.

544 PhillyPretzel  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:57:28am

re: #538 tradewind
I am not surprised.

545 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:57:40am

re: #540 Gus 802
Israel's used to this, and worse. By now public opinion is not their operative yardstick.

546 okonkolo  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:57:54am

Sorry to disagree with a few points, but because they can under certain circumstances board a vessel in international waters i still think it was a blunder to do so. Once they hit Israel's maritime boundaries the perception of the whole thing changes. Knowing the Turkish connection to the vessel, and Turkey's support of the US and Israel also makes me wonder why they thought this was worth it, especially hours ahead of Netanayu's visit to Washington, which is now toast.

547 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:58:21am

re: #542 solomonpanting

"The extreme right-wing."?
Hamas Again

In Spanish:
Jamas Again

In English:
Never Again

Eggsellent.

548 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:58:30am

re: #477 brennant

How long before rockets start landing in Israel?

1948.

549 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:58:58am

re: #541 jaunte
Turkey is fast losing whatever claim it had as a non-theocratic state. Maybe in form, but in substance, not so much.

550 Summer Seale  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:59:16am

I think everyone should tweet my picture that I made. =)

[Link: summerseale.com...]

=P

551 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:59:25am

re: #546 okonkolo

Sorry to disagree with a few points, but because they can under certain circumstances board a vessel in international waters i still think it was a blunder to do so. Once they hit Israel's maritime boundaries the perception of the whole thing changes. Knowing the Turkish connection to the vessel, and Turkey's support of the US and Israel also makes me wonder why they thought this was worth it, especially hours ahead of Netanayu's visit to Washington, which is now toast.

Because, okonkolo, you have to do what's right, not what's popular.

552 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:59:29am

re: #536 Sacred Plants

Typical instance of descensus praecox. You don´t run down a rope as if it was burning, you walk it down at controlled speed and establish contact with those beneath you before you attempt to ground. Apparently stopping above their heads to be able to make decisions including the option to walk back up the rope was not part of the training, as indicated by the fact that siginicantly more rope was thrown out than necessary for a climber to reach the ground. Which may work to interact with pirats but not with an angry crowd concerned about their sovereignty.


Huh?

553 PhillyPretzel  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:59:49am

re: #548 Racer X
And they have not stopped since.

554 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:00:14pm

re: #546 okonkolo

Sorry to disagree with a few points, but because they can under certain circumstances board a vessel in international waters i still think it was a blunder to do so. Once they hit Israel's maritime boundaries the perception of the whole thing changes. Knowing the Turkish connection to the vessel, and Turkey's support of the US and Israel also makes me wonder why they thought this was worth it, especially hours ahead of Netanayu's visit to Washington, which is now toast.

What would you have had them do?

555 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:00:39pm

Israel may have decided to accept a black eye in the global media for this. The global media consensus is just not as important as it used to be in shaping public perception.

The Israelis may have noticed what happened a few months ago in Sri Lanka. The Sri Lankan government basically told the global media to get stuffed, crushed the Tamil Tigers in a ferocious offensive, and left the media and their various allied industries (NGOs and the like) sputtering in helpless rage.

Sri Lanka's actions were incomparably more destructive and reckless than anything Israel is likely to do; tens of thousands killed, a large part of the country laid waste, prisoners massacred; but Israel is held to an enormously higher standard so the effect evens out.

556 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:01:07pm

re: #536 Sacred Plants

Typical instance of descensus praecox. You don´t run down a rope as if it was burning, you walk it down at controlled speed and establish contact with those beneath you before you attempt to ground. Apparently stopping above their heads to be able to make decisions including the option to walk back up the rope was not part of the training, as indicated by the fact that siginicantly more rope was thrown out than necessary for a climber to reach the ground. Which may work to interact with pirats but not with an angry crowd concerned about their sovereignty.

Pass that bong over here.

557 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:01:21pm

re: #546 okonkolo

Sorry to disagree with a few points, but because they can under certain circumstances board a vessel in international waters i still think it was a blunder to do so. Once they hit Israel's maritime boundaries the perception of the whole thing changes. Knowing the Turkish connection to the vessel, and Turkey's support of the US and Israel also makes me wonder why they thought this was worth it, especially hours ahead of Netanayu's visit to Washington, which is now toast.

True- and irrelevant. Israel will always be blamed for everything, even the bad weather, when it comes to the Palestinians.

That said, if the Isrealis will be perceived as mean sons of bitches when it comes to defending their people, all the better,

558 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:01:47pm

It's instructive not only to see who dings down a post but also who doesn't.

559 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:02:10pm

re: #552 MandyManners

Huh?

...angry crowd concerned about their sovereignty from the river to the sea

Just add a few words and the meaning is clearer.

560 PhillyPretzel  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:02:25pm

re: #555 shiplord kirel

Possible. Most likely they will. Keep in mind they did stop the "cargo."

561 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:02:43pm

OT
Just caught this overflight a few minutes ago... The Condor Squadron
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

562 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:03:36pm

re: #558 MandyManners

It's instructive not only to see who dings down a post but also who doesn't.

Fuck you and your witch hunt.

563 PhillyPretzel  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:03:42pm

re: #561 Rightwingconspirator

Beautiful shot.

564 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:04:02pm

re: #558 MandyManners

It's instructive not only to see who dings down a post but also who doesn't.

I'll upding as appropriate. I save my downdings for the truly stupid.

565 webevintage  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:04:22pm

re: #541 jaunte

10,000 marchers with printed banners. That was fast.
/

with large puppets?

566 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:04:22pm

re: #536 Sacred Plants

Sorry. I think you're nuts.

567 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:04:41pm

re: #561 Rightwingconspirator

OT
Just caught this overflight a few minutes ago... The Condor Squadron
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Where?

I have not heard them yet. I step outside to watch them every year.

568 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:04:48pm

re: #546 okonkolo

Sorry to disagree with a few points, but because they can under certain circumstances board a vessel in international waters i still think it was a blunder to do so. Once they hit Israel's maritime boundaries the perception of the whole thing changes. Knowing the Turkish connection to the vessel, and Turkey's support of the US and Israel also makes me wonder why they thought this was worth it, especially hours ahead of Netanayu's visit to Washington, which is now toast.

Turkey's support of the US and Israel? That dog don't hunt no more.

The flotilla of nine ships sailing to Gaza with the intent of delivering aid to Palestinians in the Hamas-run territory was organized by IHH, a Turkish aid foundation which has ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, and Free Gaza, which describes itself as a human rights group.[18]

The Turkish IHH (Insani Yardim Vakfi - "humanitarian relief fund"), with a demonstrated anti-American orientation, has known links to global jihadi networks, openly supports Iran-backed Hamas and maintains close ties with the Muslim Brotherhood movement, a global umbrella Islamic organization for Hamas as well as mujahideen groups in Afghanistan.[19]

569 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:04:48pm

re: #552 MandyManners

Huh?

Bongateer from KOS, methinks. Don't waste your time. Let me pour you a nice Basel Hayden's, mkay?
/clinkety-clink of rox inna short Steuben glass ...

570 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:05:36pm

re: #536 Sacred Plants

You don´t run down a rope as if it was burning,

I'm sure burning hemp has something to do with this, but the rope was probably nylon.

571 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:05:46pm

re: #563 PhillyPretzel

Thanks very much.

572 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:06:05pm

I see that Al Guardian.co.uk has fallen back to its default position.

573 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:06:23pm

re: #558 MandyManners

It's instructive not only to see who dings down a post but also who doesn't.

No it's not. Judging people based on who doesn't downding a post is stupid. People might skip the post, for example. Interwebs psychiatry is always a silly game to play.

574 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:06:39pm

We have a pirate problem in Texas.
A disproportianate response is called for.

MSNBC Video
575 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:06:48pm

re: #376 Rightwingconspirator

OT
If you are in SoCal, keep an eye on the sky. I hope to get a snapshot of these guys today. If I do I'll page it.

[Link: www.dailynews.com...]

[Link: condorsquadron.org...]

We had 2 F18's overfly the Memorial Cemetery here!

576 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:06:51pm

re: #565 webevintage

Puppets may be a forbidden innovation there. We'll probably see them here in the US, though.

577 Hieronymus Bosch  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:06:56pm

re: #511 Charles

My intention isn't exactly to "take sides" in a tangly conflict. But hasn't the entire last decade involved a push by the United States for "democracy"? Is the principle in fact "free elections are good, but if people vote in ways we dislike, we will blockade them and starve their innocent women and children to death"? Why not just impose military dictatorships over all the areas in the world in which the civilian populations hold views we dislike?

A civilian population voting a "terrorist government" into power should be also seen in context -- Israel rejects in practice even the moderate "road map" plans that the U.S. has proposed in recent years, and under the extreme-rightist Netanyahu government (which includes lunatic religious fundamentalists who are just as insane and dangerous as the Christian and Muslim fundamentalists often attacked on this site, and also includes overt Jewish racists whose political parties are directly descended from the openly fascist early "revisionist Zionists") has escalated its international crimes by expanding illegal settlements in the West Bank. No one in the world, not even the U.S., accepts these areas as party of Israel's sovereign territory. Israel is now setting in place a plan in the West Bank in which only Jewish settlers are given access to the main paved roads, so that they can easily drive back and forth between Israel proper and their illegal settlements (making such illegal settlements more desirable places to live). Such acts compound the situation further and don't exactly make Israel look like a reasonable actor interested in peace. Hamas has clearly committed a number of abhorrent acts, but so has Israel -- if the Israelis show no sign of respecting international law, and show no sign of even listening to their closest allies' pleas for moderation, why should we be surprised that the Gazans respond to aggression with further aggression?

Israel has shown no real sign of moderating their own position. The Arab states as early as the mid 70s had proposed essentially the same peace deal that all world powers support today, which would see Israel return to its 1967 borders. Hamas presently publicly accepts in premise such a solution but Israel does not, and that at least displays something.

578 Daniel Ballard  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:06:59pm

re: #567 Racer X

They flew over Burbank to the south and then went west. Fast planes though. Keep an ear open. They sound very unique.

579 okonkolo  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:07:02pm

re: #554 MandyManners

I don't exactly know, but if they have let ships through in the past (and they have), and your Prime Minister is going to be in Washington in a matter of hours (for the first time since the last visit that did not go well), you probably should let the ships through again, or block it when it hits national waters. Again, PM in Washington, Turkish connection, international waters, it doesn't seem ahead of time to be worth the risk.

580 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:07:14pm

re: #559 jaunte

...angry crowd concerned about their sovereignty from the river to the sea

Just add a few words and the meaning is clearer.

I was trying to figure it out.

581 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:07:41pm

re: #562 JasonA

Huh?

582 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:07:51pm

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

Israel is now setting in place a plan in the West Bank in which only Jewish settlers are given access to the main paved roads, so that they can easily drive back and forth between Israel proper and their illegal settlements (making such illegal settlements more desirable places to live).

Can you please provide any proof for this?

583 Walter L. Newton  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:07:57pm

re: #573 Obdicut

No it's not. Judging people based on who doesn't downding a post is stupid. People might skip the post, for example. Interwebs psychiatry is always a silly game to play.

You should know better than anyone.

584 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:08:23pm

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

For real? I mean really real?

585 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:08:52pm

One more thing: The blockade is isn't about stopping aid from getting to Gazans. It is about stopping weapons and munitions from reaching Hamas.

The Gazans seem to have a problem with that. Tough shit, I say.

586 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:09:06pm

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

Israel has shown no real sign of moderating their own position. The Arab states as early as the mid 70s had proposed essentially the same peace deal that all world powers support today, which would see Israel return to its 1967 borders. Hamas presently publicly accepts in premise such a solution but Israel does not, and that at least displays something.

This is not true. Hamas does not accept the existence of Israel.

587 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:09:21pm

re: #581 MandyManners

Huh?

"Huh" what? You made your thoughts clear and I did the same.

588 dugmartsch  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:09:43pm

re: #539 abolitionist

[snip] The IRA did not have the aid of several powerful nearby governments who were actively attempting to acquire nuclear capabilities.[snip]

Downplaying your "nearby" qualifier, I'll name three. Libya, Syria, N.Korea.

Should have added "some of whom", to that sentence. It has lots of powerful allies in nearby governments, not all of which are attempting to acquire nuclear capabilities. Capabilities is itself a hedge, since someone could disagree that Iran is attempting to acquire nuclear weapons, but they are certainly attempting to acquire the capability to allow themselves to produce nuclear weapons in the future if they want. It takes a lot of trust of a not very trustworthy state to believe that they're not actively seeking nuclear arms, however. And also a very strict understanding of what it means to be developing nuclear weapons.

589 webevintage  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:10:05pm

re: #574 pingjockey

We have a pirate problem in Texas.
A disproportianate response is called for.
[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Wow.
Mexican pirates.

590 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:10:09pm

re: #579 okonkolo

I don't exactly know, but if they have let ships through in the past (and they have), and your Prime Minister is going to be in Washington in a matter of hours (for the first time since the last visit that did not go well), you probably should let the ships through again, or block it when it hits national waters. Again, PM in Washington, Turkish connection, international waters, it doesn't seem ahead of time to be worth the risk.

So, let an uninspected cargo through?

591 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:10:50pm

re: #587 JasonA

"Huh" what? You made your thoughts clear and I did the same.

Well, piss off, then.

592 Kefirah  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:11:07pm

additional point against claims of "peace activism:"

members of the flotilla were recorded chanting "khaybar, khaybar ya yehud, jaysh muhammad sawf ya'ud!"

translation - "khaybar, khaybar o jews, the army of muhammad will return!"

in khaybar, the jewish community was forced to surrender to a muslim army, and additionally forced to surrender half of their money to said force. dhimmi status, in other words.

so very friendly, no?

593 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:11:12pm

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

Bull. Israel has consistently moderated it position. If there was any change to this moderation it was only in response to The Primitives.

594 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:11:16pm

re: #578 Rightwingconspirator

They flew over Burbank to the south and then went west. Fast planes though. Keep an ear open. They sound very unique.

Just went outside. Not yet. They should fly over my house in the next few minutes.

595 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:11:52pm

re: #589 webevintage

Wow.
Mexican pirates.

Drug thugs with big guns.

596 okonkolo  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:11:59pm

I'm always amazed that when Gaza blockade is mentioned that Egypt is usually left out. Egypt is part of whatever humanitarian crisis exists, and it is also the reason that Israel can never hope to keep weapons from reaching Gaza.

597 webevintage  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:12:15pm

re: #579 okonkolo

I don't exactly know, but if they have let ships through in the past (and they have), and your Prime Minister is going to be in Washington in a matter of hours (for the first time since the last visit that did not go well), you probably should let the ships through again, or block it when it hits national waters. Again, PM in Washington, Turkish connection, international waters, it doesn't seem ahead of time to be worth the risk.

Of course it would have just been easier if they "Peace activist" had just let the Israelis look at the cargo. It seems a reasonable request given the circumstances.

598 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:12:19pm

re: #591 MandyManners

Whatever. Go ahead and judge people who aren't glued to every post that scrolls by because they didn't click the downding button.

599 Bagua  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:12:26pm

re: #404 darthstar

That's why I don't think this was a terrorist attack flotilla. And no, I don't think Hedy was throwing marbles or swinging a bat at the Israeli commandos...I'm assuming that was done by younger members of the flotilla, and probably young men.

The stunning naivete you demonstrate on the subject of Israel is matched only by your ardent anti-Israeli bias.

600 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:13:12pm

re: #596 okonkolo

I'm always amazed that when Gaza blockade is mentioned that Egypt is usually left out. Egypt is part of whatever humanitarian crisis exists, and it is also the reason that Israel can never hope to keep weapons from reaching Gaza.

How deep does the Israeli fence go?

601 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:13:18pm

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

Jiminy Carter, is that you?

602 jordash1212  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:14:16pm

re: #538 tradewind

Bernard Lewis asserted last November or December at a talk in Jerusalem that Iran and Turkey might be switching positions. Iran would become the secular democracy and Turkey the Islamic republic.

603 Bagua  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:15:21pm

re: #582 Obdicut

Can you please provide any proof for this?

There are security roads in place for the simple reason that Jewish civilians have been attacked so frequently.

604 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:15:46pm

Gee, here's a surprise:

CAIR: President Obama Must Condemn Gaza Flotilla 'Massacre'

605 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:15:54pm

re: #601 Cato the Elder

It still pisses me off that that man was my CinC!

606 elimail  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:16:06pm

Flotilla Activists Disembarking at the Ashdod Port

Youtube Video
607 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:16:07pm

Wow. 83 viewers logged into this thread.

608 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:16:24pm

re: #596 okonkolo

I'm always amazed that when Gaza blockade is mentioned that Egypt is usually left out. Egypt is part of whatever humanitarian crisis exists, and it is also the reason that Israel can never hope to keep weapons from reaching Gaza.

Good point, Okonkolo.

609 okonkolo  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:16:25pm

re: #590 MandyManners

If the have done it before and Bibi is getting ready to dance in the endzone in Washington, yes, or at least physically block in national waters.

610 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:16:39pm

re: #604 shiplord kirel

Gee, here's a surprise:

CAIR: President Obama Must Condemn Gaza Flotilla 'Massacre'

My advice to Obama would be, at the very least, to keep his trap shut.

611 PhillyPretzel  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:16:42pm

re: #607 Floral Giraffe

It is a hot topic.

612 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:16:42pm

re: #546 okonkolo
Turkey's support of Israel? Sorry to be redundant, but ..... what's wrong with this picture?
[Link: www.jpost.com...]

613 Bagua  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:17:05pm

re: #607 Floral Giraffe

Wow. 83 viewers logged into this thread.

They smell blood.

614 dugmartsch  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:17:07pm

re: #602 jordash1212

Bernard Lewis asserted last November or December at a talk in Jerusalem that Iran and Turkey might be switching positions. Iran would become the secular democracy and Turkey the Islamic republic.

I'd take that bet whatever the odds. I'll give him 10,000:1 against if he bets at least 10k, even. And not just because I've never known anyone who's actually predicted anything of importance, but also because I think he is spectacularly wrong.

615 elimail  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:17:19pm

Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers (With Sound)

Youtube Video
616 Hieronymus Bosch  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:17:34pm

re: #582 Obdicut

I first read about it here.

Even if you consider the source to be biased against Israel and the apartheid analogy cliched, the facts themselves clearly check out.

617 okonkolo  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:17:47pm

re: #597 webevintage

Yes.

618 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:17:54pm

re: #604 shiplord kirel

Gee, here's a surprise:

CAIR: President Obama Must Condemn Gaza Flotilla 'Massacre'

Fuck those assholes. Sideways and seven ways to Sunday.

619 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:17:56pm

re: #604 shiplord kirel

Small edit:
Israeli commandos killed at least 10 civilians men dressed as civilians in a pre-dawn raid on the flotilla.
[Link: www.prnewswire.com...]

620 dugmartsch  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:18:37pm

re: #610 Gus 802

My advice to Obama would be, at the very least, to keep his trap shut.

That is really good advice. I think this is always Obama's instinct which he is sometimes convinced to go against.

621 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:18:41pm

re: #614 dugmartsch
I don't see the mad mullahs quitting anytime soon. Turkey, OTOH, could slide into a theocracy like Iran. Depends of the military.

622 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:18:56pm

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

My intention isn't exactly to "take sides" in a tangly conflict. But hasn't the entire last decade involved a push by the United States for "democracy"? Is the principle in fact "free elections are good, but if people vote in ways we dislike, we will blockade them and starve their innocent women and children to death"? Why not just impose military dictatorships over all the areas in the world in which the civilian populations hold views we dislike?

You are an idiot.

Being elected does not confer legitimacy to a government. Legitimacy is conferred by way of good governance.

Adolph Hitler came to power by manipulating a free vote. Had the allies bombed Berlin in 1939, up to 50 million lives would have been saved.

The Nazis tried to their murderous agenda for a long time. Hamas, et al, cannot be bothered.

The Israelis appear to be remarkably inept at killing Palestinians. Maybe because that really isn't their agenda.

Also, there is no such thing as 'disproportionate response to calls for genocide. Europeans know that. They use that colloquialism when they can't appear to be defending Israeli actions.

623 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:19:23pm

re: #558 MandyManners
Often it is, true, but sometimes I.... so I guess probably others as well... just miss stuff, or forget, or read a post hours afterwards and think they'd be stealth-dinging.

624 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:19:52pm

re: #616 Hieronymus Bosch

I first read about it here.

Even if you consider the source to be biased against Israel and the apartheid analogy cliched, the facts themselves clearly check out.

Seriously? UAE news site?

Pull your head out of your ass.

625 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:20:00pm

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

My intention isn't exactly to "take sides" in a tangly conflict. But hasn't the entire last decade involved a push by the United States for "democracy"? Is the principle in fact "free elections are good, but if people vote in ways we dislike, we will blockade them and starve their innocent women and children to death"? Why not just impose military dictatorships over all the areas in the world in which the civilian populations hold views we dislike?

I completely agree. Elections are a good thing. One thing they're especially good at is making situations clear. When the Palestinians of Gaza voted to elect a government openly dedicated to murder and yes, genocide, they clarified the position enormously.

Elections also have consequences. Gazans have a perfect right to elect whoever they choose, but the consequence of electing a terrorist government that openly conducts war against Israel is that Israel will act to defend itself.

As any nation would.

626 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:20:17pm

re: #606 elimail

Flotilla Activists Disembarking at the Ashdod Port

[Video]

I think I saw some of these people throwing tortillas at the last Texas Tech football game.

627 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:20:20pm

re: #604 shiplord kirel

Gee, here's a surprise:

CAIR: President Obama Must Condemn Gaza Flotilla 'Massacre'


Awad also urged the president to live up to his statement one year ago in Cairo in which he said that America will not turn its back on "the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity and a state of their own."

Silly man! The Palis seem able to do that all by them widdle selves.

628 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:20:35pm

re: #618 Gang of One
The usually strangely-silent CAIR screws up its courage after gauging international outrage./

629 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:20:36pm

re: #404 darthstar

That's why I don't think this was a terrorist attack flotilla. And no, I don't think Hedy was throwing marbles or swinging a bat at the Israeli commandos...I'm assuming that was done by younger members of the flotilla, and probably young men.

Hedy is an attention-seeking moonbat. Just because she is a Holocaust refugee (NOT a "survivor") does not give her infallible credibility or automatic immunity from ever being criticized or mocked, ever.

630 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:21:33pm

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

Is the principle in fact "free elections are good, but if people vote in ways we dislike, we will blockade them and starve their innocent women and children to death"?

Pathetic liar.

631 dugmartsch  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:21:37pm

re: #621 pingjockey

I don't see the mad mullahs quitting anytime soon. Turkey, OTOH, could slide into a theocracy like Iran. Depends of the military.

Yeah that was mostly why I thought it was wrong. It was nice last summer to have some really distant hope but I mean, never buy the hype.

The mullahs don't exactly seem concerned about the PR of killing lots of demonstrators.

632 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:21:56pm

re: #619 jaunte

Small edit:
Israeli commandos killed at least 10 civilians men dressed as civilians in a pre-dawn raid on the flotilla.
[Link: www.prnewswire.com...]

it should be interesting to see who exactly these folks were...

633 Bagua  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:21:58pm

re: #615 elimail

Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers (With Sound)


[Video]

Some "peace activists", that was a lynch mob. Were those "Nobel peace prize winners clubbing the fallen soldiers with iron bars and throwing them overboard?

634 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:22:17pm

re: #621 pingjockey
They've been leaning......
hate to see it. It could be just a matter of which wheel squeaks loudest, but perception can become reality.

635 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:22:53pm

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

And by the way, no "innocent women and children" are "starving to death" in Gaza. That's complete nonsense.

636 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:22:54pm

re: #616 Hieronymus Bosch

I first read about it here.

Even if you consider the source to be biased against Israel and the apartheid analogy cliched, the facts themselves clearly check out.

637 Hieronymus Bosch  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:23:07pm

re: #586 Obdicut

My phrasing lacked precision -- Hamas has accepted in principle the declaration of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed in 1967. As early as 2002, Hamas leadership expressed support for Saudi peace efforts (which would see Israel return to its 1967 borders and receive fully normalized diplomatic relations with Arab League states) and proclaimed themselves willing to end all armed attacks against Israel in the event of such a peace deal.

638 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:24:14pm

Is Rahmbo still in Israel?

639 Bagua  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:24:18pm

re: #616 Hieronymus Bosch

I first read about it here.

Even if you consider the source to be biased against Israel and the apartheid analogy cliched, the facts themselves clearly check out.

You first read Anti-Israeli propaganda in an Arab Emirates based paper? What an ignorant tool you are.

640 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:24:27pm

re: #631 dugmartsch
They don't have to worry about the int'l outrage over hanging gays, stoning women to death, or murdering protestors. Israel, even when it has been attacked, provoked, etc...must NOT fight back, or they'll be condemed by the int'l asshats.

641 jordash1212  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:24:49pm

re: #614 dugmartsch

It is a long shot, but you do know who Bernard Lewis is, right? The man is an expert of Turkey and of the Middle East in general.

642 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:25:08pm

re: #616 Hieronymus Bosch

I first read about it here.

Even if you consider the source to be biased against Israel and the apartheid analogy cliched, the facts themselves clearly check out.

You really are an idiot.

First of all, 95% plus of the 'wall' is a fence.

Second of all, the 'wall' and other roads were built because of the Palestinian sport of sniping at Israeli vehicles and citizens.

Still, maybe you are right and the Israelis are practicing apartheid. They want to keep the racists, bigots and terrorists away from their people.

Stupid bastards./

643 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:25:16pm

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy,

What are we looking at if this happens?

644 Obdicut  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:25:23pm

re: #636 Obdicut

Gah. Screwed that up.

My reponse was:

A) The network is not for the exclusive use of settlers. That is propaganda.
B) The reason for the separate road network is the current large number of checkpoints necessary to check for bombs in Palestinian vehicles.
C) The separate road system is proposed as a way for Palestinians to not have to deal with checkpoints, as well as Israelis to not have to deal with bombs.

On the other point, are you ready to accept that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist?

645 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:25:25pm

re: #635 Charles

And by the way, no "innocent women and children" are "starving to death" in Gaza. That's complete nonsense.

The only thing starving in Gaza is the Hamas rocket batteries and even they are not quite dead.

646 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:25:40pm

re: #637 Hieronymus Bosch
Then why do they still keep shooting rockets and sending mad bombers into Israel?

647 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:26:04pm

re: #630 Cato the Elder

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

Is the principle in fact "free elections are good, but if people vote in ways we dislike, we will blockade them and starve their innocent women and children to death"?


Pathetic liar.


Yeah, "we" do those dastardly deeds even as "we" give the Palis millions in aid annually.

648 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:26:22pm

re: #643 JasonA

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy,

What are we looking at if this happens?

Lots of Turkish tonnage at the bottom of the Med?
//Not a good sign ...

649 Spare O'Lake  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:26:30pm

re: #546 okonkolo

Sorry to disagree with a few points, but because they can under certain circumstances board a vessel in international waters i still think it was a blunder to do so. Once they hit Israel's maritime boundaries the perception of the whole thing changes. Knowing the Turkish connection to the vessel, and Turkey's support of the US and Israel also makes me wonder why they thought this was worth it, especially hours ahead of Netanayu's visit to Washington, which is now toast.

I think you have it backwards. It was the flotilla that chose its time to make its move on the blockade, and they probably timed it for when Netanyahu was out of the country. As for the choice of the precise timing and location of the boarding op, it is probable that the time and place were carefully planned and chosen to accomplish maximum surprise and minimum casualties.

650 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:26:34pm

Having argues my way with few Americans (I live in LA) I realized there is a very strong emphasis on whats legally written and agreed by international conventions and treaties.
As much as I believe we Israel could have handled this much better, there is absolutely no merit to any legal or the oh-so-common war-crime or "piracy". At least Israel's legal team did the right job and put out this document.
There was an awful tactic mistake, terrible PR disaster, but we would be the bad guys anyway, everyone would hate Israel for defending it's sovereign status, so FU to all those who don't let facts confuse use them.
[ BTW - How come NO ONE HAS MENTIONED (!!!!) the Armenians and the Turks "Little" deal ? Holocaust and all ? That's really awesome how those "Peace"-"Activists" fail to remember that ]
And here are the facts: [Link: j.mp...] (too long to attach)

651 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:26:44pm

re: #643 JasonA

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy,

What are we looking at if this happens?

Noise. They do that and there goes their EU membership bid. If they fired a shot the Israelis would dispatch the vessel.

It's all for domestic consumption.

652 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:26:49pm

re: #643 JasonA
The complete elimination of the Turkish navy.

653 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:27:04pm

re: #620 dugmartsch
He has shown good restraint so far. Hasn't scolded the Israelis for acting stupidly, or called for a beer summit./ Seriously, it is encouraging that he is trying to get all the facts before saying anything.

654 ryannon  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:27:06pm

re: #535 tradewind

Les Carbecues in 5...4...3...

All hell has been breaking out near the Israeli embassy for hours now. The Champs Elysée, Paris's prestige boulevard is blocked. I live miles away from all this, but I've noted a really inordinate number of police sirens in the distance over the past few hours.

655 2senseplain  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:27:22pm

re: #416 Walter L. Newton

Yes, they were Israeli Naval commandos climbing down the ropes from a Naval Helicopter. They were both inadequately armed and handcuffed by strict orders not to use the limited arms they had until they were really in danger of their lives. And no, it shouldn't have been allowed to go that far. My kid is in the army, not the navy but the possiblity that he could be sent into battle inadequately armed and told not to defend himself, scares the living daylights out of me.

656 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:27:36pm

re: #480 Obdicut

Goliath, for example.

Slings were a military weapon for millennia.

Goliath?...please
anyway they are two totally different weapons

657 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:27:51pm

re: #643 JasonA

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy,

What are we looking at if this happens?

I'll bite.

Turkey can stick it where the sun doesn't shine. If Turkey has decided to play the role of the belligerent then they mist be treated as a belligerent. They already went to far with this Provocation Flotilla.

658 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:28:00pm

re: #641 jordash1212
What Went Wrong is a very interesting read.

659 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:28:27pm

re: #643 JasonA

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy,

What are we looking at if this happens?

The Turkish navy will not do it. Since the time of Ataturk, the Turkish armed forces have seen themselves as the guardians of the secular state he established. That hasn't changed.

660 Bagua  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:28:36pm

re: #654 ryannon

All hell has been breaking out near the Israeli embassy for hours now. The Champs Elysée, Paris's prestige boulevard is blocked. I live miles away from all this, but I've noted a really inordinate number of police sirens in the distance over the past few hours.

Nothing like a good Blood Libel to bring out the anti-Semites in mass.

661 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:28:51pm

re: #654 ryannon
Ruh-roh, it's out of the suburbs?
So you are in Paris? Keep us informed. And be careful.

662 jordash1212  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:28:51pm

re: #658 tradewind

I'll pick it up this summer. Thank you.

663 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:28:56pm

re: #643 JasonA

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy,

What are we looking at if this happens?

I think that to be lip service... it is not in the best interest to do so for many reasons.

664 wrenchwench  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:29:29pm

re: #650 american_peanuts

Link didn't work. Try again?

665 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:29:33pm

re: #654 ryannon

Keep safe!

666 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:29:40pm

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Maybe this is the wrong forum to even suggest this sort of thing, but shouldn't Israel's acts be viewed in the context of the fact that the attack against the aid ships occurred in context of enforcing an unspeakably brutal and blockade against Gaza (a sort of "collective punishment" against Gaza's civilians for voting Hamas into power)? Even if within a certain limited prism we could make a coherent argument that the IDF's attack of the aid boats was "justified," did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?

What is "unspeakable" and "brutal" about preventing Hamas from obtaining materials they use to construct offensive weapons against Israeli civilians?

There is no shortage of food and other necessary items in Gaza.

667 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:29:49pm

re: #657 Gus 802


Will Israel back down from trying to inspect ships escorted by the Turks? I doubt it. Will the Turks then have the stones to fire on Israelis? That's the question that I'm mulling around in my head.

668 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:30:21pm

Sorry for all those spelling mistakes too...
[Link: www.mfa.gov.il...]

669 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:30:24pm

I'm sensing a car swarm somewhere....

670 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:30:26pm

re: #616 Hieronymus Bosch

Why aren't these writers, agit prop artists, groups, and other Palestinian sympathizers and "peace activists" trying to get through to Gaza via Egypt? Why aren't they calling that wall and those roads "apartheid roads"

671 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:30:33pm

re: #663 brookly red
When has that ever been the prevailing theme in the ME?

672 abolitionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:30:49pm

re: #637 Hieronymus Bosch

My phrasing lacked precision -- Hamas has accepted in principle the declaration of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed in 1967. As early as 2002, Hamas leadership expressed support for Saudi peace efforts (which would see Israel return to its 1967 borders and receive fully normalized diplomatic relations with Arab League states) and proclaimed themselves willing to end all armed attacks against Israel in the event of such a peace deal.

I'll be more inclined to believe that as soon as Hamas renounces the Hamas Charter.

673 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:31:06pm

re: #667 JasonA

Will Israel back down from trying to inspect ships escorted by the Turks? I doubt it. Will the Turks then have the stones to fire on Israelis? That's the question that I'm mulling around in my head.

I think Shiploard in #659 has it about right. They're just blowing smoke.

674 wrenchwench  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:31:48pm

re: #668 american_peanuts

Sorry for all those spelling mistakes too...
[Link: www.mfa.gov.il...]

That one worked, thanks. Don't worry about the spelling.

675 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:32:19pm

re: #643 JasonA

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy,

What are we looking at if this happens?

Turkey getting its ass kicked?

676 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:32:24pm

re: #671 tradewind

When has that ever been the prevailing theme in the ME?

The Turks will look out for their own interests.

677 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:32:42pm

I partly blame the UN for this unreal level of willful stupidity expressed on this thread....open evidence of the damage that bunch of criminals can induce....I hate the UN with a passion, they get people killed

678 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:32:49pm

re: #673 Gus 802

I think Shiploard in #659 has it about right. They're just blowing smoke.

And he's probably right. I suppose I'm just playing the "what if" game.

679 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:33:11pm

re: #637 Hieronymus Bosch

My phrasing lacked precision -- Hamas has accepted in principle the declaration of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed in 1967. As early as 2002, Hamas leadership expressed support for Saudi peace efforts (which would see Israel return to its 1967 borders and receive fully normalized diplomatic relations with Arab League states) and proclaimed themselves willing to end all armed attacks against Israel in the event of such a peace deal.

You don't seem to be very well informed. Hamas just recently said they will not accept Israel's right to exist.

Hamas: '67 border deal won't recognize Israel

Your grasp of Middle East matters seems limited at best. Perhaps you might find another area on which to opine.

680 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:33:13pm

re: #637 Hieronymus Bosch

My phrasing lacked precision -- Hamas has accepted in principle the declaration of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed in 1967. As early as 2002, Hamas leadership expressed support for Saudi peace efforts (which would see Israel return to its 1967 borders and receive fully normalized diplomatic relations with Arab League states) and proclaimed themselves willing to end all armed attacks against Israel in the event of such a peace deal.

Need to keep tuning up that precision machine. You left out the good part about right to return, aka death to Israel.

681 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:33:16pm

re: #659 shiplord kirel
They sure sound like they mean to do just that. There's always a first time.
That would be a big mistake, though.
I can just see the Kurds now.

682 McSpiff  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:33:28pm

re: #643 JasonA

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy,

What are we looking at if this happens?

Hopefully a coupe.

683 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:33:50pm

re: #670 Thanos

Why aren't these writers, agit prop artists, groups, and other Palestinian sympathizers and "peace activists" trying to get through to Gaza via Egypt? Why aren't they calling that wall and those roads "apartheid roads"

Because that would be, uh, dangerous?

684 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:34:09pm

re: #682 McSpiff

Hopefully a coupe.

A two-door vehicle?

685 McSpiff  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:34:32pm

re: #684 Cato the Elder

A two-door vehicle?

Well, it sure beats war?

686 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:34:34pm

re: #678 JasonA

And he's probably right. I suppose I'm just playing the "what if" game.

OK In that case the IAF would pummel whatever Turkish ship they sent as an escort -- as required.

687 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:35:10pm

re: #670 Thanos
All depends on whose ox is being gored camel is being scimitared.

688 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:35:10pm

re: #654 ryannon

All hell has been breaking out near the Israeli embassy for hours now. The Champs Elysée, Paris's prestige boulevard is blocked. I live miles away from all this, but I've noted a really inordinate number of police sirens in the distance over the past few hours.

Keep safe.

689 Bagua  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:35:16pm

It is amazing how the anti-Semites swallow every thinly disguised turd that gives them a chance to rail against Israel.

If those were US Coast Guard or Navy officers being beaten with iron bars, stabbed and thrown overboard would they be here calling them "peace activists" in "international waters?"

690 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:35:45pm

re: #683 Gang of One

Because that would be, uh, dangerous?

Right, because we know that Egypt regularly shoots refugees fleeing to Israel in the Sinai. You never seem to hear much about that...

691 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:35:53pm

re: #682 McSpiff

Hopefully a coupe.

or at least a convertible

692 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:35:54pm

re: #689 Bagua

It is amazing how the anti-Semites swallow every thinly disguised turd that gives them a chance to rail against Israel.

If those were US Coast Guard or Navy officers being beaten with iron bars, stabbed and thrown overboard would they be here calling them "peace activists" in "international waters?"

Oh fucking snap.

693 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:36:16pm

re: #685 McSpiff
The 'e '. I was waving to warn you....
:)

694 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:36:44pm

Hey! Students are protesting in Tehran again! And they're not cracking down on them!

In Tehran, dozens of angry students pelted the U.N. offices with stones and eggs in protest, burning Israeli flags and chanting, "death to Israel" and "down with U.S." Police blocked them from reaching the building. The president of Iran, a key supporter of Hamas, called the raid "an inhuman act."

Oh, wait...

695 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:36:53pm

re: #674 wrenchwench

I keep popping into twitter, dunno why.... sadistic tendencies....
How can such a simple truth be ignored ? I just don't get why people choose to be so stupid !
Say you are Jew-Hater, anti-zionist, ultra-left-wing or simply KKK -
Still, how can you make FALSE claims and they still have merit just for you stating them ???

1) Israel did everything "by the book"
2) There was NO SHOOTING initiated by Israel
3) Soldiers roped down with PAINT BALL GUNS FOR CHRIST SAKE !!!!!
4) It is clear they were attacked (forget lynched, we are not pussies) and it is clear they were fired upon.
5) It is well publicised that Israel offered to transfer the goods via Ashdod after inspection.

So WHAT ????
What else could you argue, say, scream, sing or dance ????

696 Achilles Tang  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:36:57pm

re: #643 JasonA

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy,

What are we looking at if this happens?

I'm wondering what Israel will do with the largest ship, and the other vessels.

Send them back to make another trip in the future?

697 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:37:02pm

re: #679 researchok

You don't seem to be very well informed. Hamas just recently said they will not accept Israel's right to exist.

Hamas: '67 border deal won't recognize Israel

Your grasp of Middle East matters seems limited at best. Perhaps you might find another area on which to opine.

That's the nicest way to say "SHUT THE FUCK UP" that I've ever seen.

698 McSpiff  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:37:09pm

Do we know why some ships apparently went peaceful while two did not? Sudden out break of common sense? Or was each ship being crewed by a separate group (this was a coalition thing wasn't it?)?

699 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:37:39pm

re: #682 McSpiff

Hopefully a coupe.

I prefer sedans.

700 Hieronymus Bosch  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:37:57pm

This cycle of violence has been happening for a very long time. Even if one accepts in principle that posters here is correct and not distorting anything at all by proclaiming Hamas as "advocating genocide," can't we very clearly see similar statements of genocidal intent expressed by elements of the Israeli far-right (who presently find themselves in the highest corridors of power)? I don't believe the Palestinians have generally had very good leaders, but what would good Palestinian leaders look like to people posting here? Would they just say, "Ah, we were wrong all along, Judea and Samaria are eternally part of Israel, let's just hand over all the good land here to the Jews and march ourselves over to Jordan and leave them in peace"...?

Poverty in Gaza is at horrific levels. From a public health perspective one must view poverty itself as a factor causing excess deaths. I recommend the terrific documentary which aired on PBS, "Unnatural Causes" for medical evidence on the fact that poverty and social injustice directly (that is, even controlling for all other risk factors) lead to lower life expectancy (this is due to involved stress levels and release of cortisol). If one does not believe that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is leading to terrible levels of unnecessary excess civilian deaths, I'd challenge that person's grasp of reality.

701 Bagua  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:38:19pm

re: #643 JasonA

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy,

What are we looking at if this happens?

Sunk Turkish Navy ships. Just like when Syria, Jordan, Egypt, attack. Their war vessels get destroyed.

702 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:38:20pm

re: #689 Bagua

It is amazing how the anti-Semites swallow every thinly disguised turd that gives them a chance to rail against Israel.

If those were US Coast Guard or Navy officers being beaten with iron bars, stabbed and thrown overboard would they be here calling them "peace activists" in "international waters?"

Some would.

703 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:38:25pm

re: #684 Cato the Elder

A two-door vehicle?

Isn't one a 'coo' and the other a 'coo-pay'?

704 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:38:29pm

re: #633 Bagua

Some "peace activists", that was a lynch mob. Were those "Nobel peace prize winners clubbing the fallen soldiers with iron bars and throwing them overboard?

DOubt it. THe picture that's developing for me is five boats full of delusion peace activists who, when Yossi and Gad dropped in, sat on the deck and sang 'We Shall Overcome', and one--the Mavi Marmara--full of IHH people with a different agenda and a different plan.

705 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:38:50pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

This cycle of violence has been happening for a very long time. Even if one accepts in principle that posters here is correct and not distorting anything at all by proclaiming Hamas as "advocating genocide," can't we very clearly see similar statements of genocidal intent expressed by elements of the Israeli far-right (who presently find themselves in the highest corridors of power)? I don't believe the Palestinians have generally had very good leaders, but what would good Palestinian leaders look like to people posting here? Would they just say, "Ah, we were wrong all along, Judea and Samaria are eternally part of Israel, let's just hand over all the good land here to the Jews and march ourselves over to Jordan and leave them in peace"...?

Poverty in Gaza is at horrific levels. From a public health perspective one must view poverty itself as a factor causing excess deaths. I recommend the terrific documentary which aired on PBS, "Unnatural Causes" for medical evidence on the fact that poverty and social injustice directly (that is, even controlling for all other risk factors) lead to lower life expectancy (this is due to involved stress levels and release of cortisol). If one does not believe that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is leading to terrible levels of unnecessary excess civilian deaths, I'd challenge that person's grasp of reality.

ah bullshit...not true

706 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:39:03pm

re: #697 MandyManners

That's the nicest way to say "SHUT THE FUCK UP" that I've ever seen.

I'm trying to be nice.

Won't last much longer.

707 McSpiff  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:39:07pm

I'M TIRED AND I CAN'T TYPE GOOD, I GET IT!

//
:-D Bunch of dorks...

708 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:39:10pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

You're testing my patience, aren't you?

709 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:39:11pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

It's the infamous "Cycle of Violence..." being peddled again...

710 Spare O'Lake  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:39:25pm

re: #637 Hieronymus Bosch

My phrasing lacked precision -- Hamas has accepted in principle the declaration of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed in 1967. As early as 2002, Hamas leadership expressed support for Saudi peace efforts (which would see Israel return to its 1967 borders and receive fully normalized diplomatic relations with Arab League states) and proclaimed themselves willing to end all armed attacks against Israel in the event of such a peace deal.

Your phrasing is utter horse manure. You cannot finesse Hamas refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist.

711 Bagua  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:39:46pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

Fuck off troll, you propaganda spam is not worthy of comment.

712 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:39:49pm

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

So many lies, so little time.

713 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:39:59pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch
Israelis=genocidal?
Really.

714 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:40:44pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

This cycle of violence has been happening for a very long time. Even if one accepts in principle that posters here is correct and not distorting anything at all by proclaiming Hamas as "advocating genocide," can't we very clearly see similar statements of genocidal intent expressed by elements of the Israeli far-right (who presently find themselves in the highest corridors of power)? I don't believe the Palestinians have generally had very good leaders, but what would good Palestinian leaders look like to people posting here? Would they just say, "Ah, we were wrong all along, Judea and Samaria are eternally part of Israel, let's just hand over all the good land here to the Jews and march ourselves over to Jordan and leave them in peace"...?

Poverty in Gaza is at horrific levels. From a public health perspective one must view poverty itself as a factor causing excess deaths. I recommend the terrific documentary which aired on PBS, "Unnatural Causes" for medical evidence on the fact that poverty and social injustice directly (that is, even controlling for all other risk factors) lead to lower life expectancy (this is due to involved stress levels and release of cortisol). If one does not believe that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is leading to terrible levels of unnecessary excess civilian deaths, I'd challenge that person's grasp of reality.

What is Hamas?

Hamas is the largest and most influential Palestinian militant movement. In January 2006, the group won the Palestinian Authority's (PA) general legislative elections, defeating Fatah, the party of the PA's president, Mahmoud Abbas, and setting the stage for a power struggle.

Since attaining power, Hamas has continued its refusal to recognize the state of Israel, leading to crippling economic sanctions. Historically, Hamas has sponsored an extensive social service network.

The group has also operated a terrorist wing, carrying out suicide bombings and attacks using mortars and short-range rockets.

Hamas has launched attacks both in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and inside the pre-1967 boundaries of Israel.

In Arabic, the word "hamas" means zeal. But it's also an Arabic acronym for "Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya," or Islamic Resistance Movement.

715 Achilles Tang  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:41:12pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

Are you by chance employed by the UN Human Rights Council?

716 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:41:41pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

This cycle of violence has been happening for a very long time. Even if one accepts in principle that posters here is correct and not distorting anything at all by proclaiming Hamas as "advocating genocide," can't we very clearly see similar statements of genocidal intent expressed by elements of the Israeli far-right (who presently find themselves in the highest corridors of power)? I don't believe the Palestinians have generally had very good leaders, but what would good Palestinian leaders look like to people posting here? Would they just say, "Ah, we were wrong all along, Judea and Samaria are eternally part of Israel, let's just hand over all the good land here to the Jews and march ourselves over to Jordan and leave them in peace"...?

Poverty in Gaza is at horrific levels. From a public health perspective one must view poverty itself as a factor causing excess deaths. I recommend the terrific documentary which aired on PBS, "Unnatural Causes" for medical evidence on the fact that poverty and social injustice directly (that is, even controlling for all other risk factors) lead to lower life expectancy (this is due to involved stress levels and release of cortisol). If one does not believe that the Israeli blockade of Gaza is leading to terrible levels of unnecessary excess civilian deaths, I'd challenge that person's grasp of reality.

Moron.

'Elements' of the far right are not expressing a state sanctioned call for genocide.

Nor is the call for genocide taught in schools, preached from the pulpit or an integral part of Israeli life and culture- unlike the culture of the Palestinians and much of the Arab world that embrace that kind of dysfunction.

717 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:41:48pm

re: #707 McSpiff
(almost) Nobody worries/cares about irrelevant typos that don't change the meaning of a post.

718 McSpiff  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:41:50pm

re: #704 SanFranciscoZionist

DOubt it. THe picture that's developing for me is five boats full of delusion peace activists who, when Yossi and Gad dropped in, sat on the deck and sang 'We Shall Overcome', and one--the Mavi Marmara--full of IHH people with a different agenda and a different plan.

That's what I'm hoping. If the people on the other ships honestly did the non-violent thing and went peacefully, I can deal with that. Stupid, extremely stupid, but ultimately harmless. Which is different from actively ambushing soldiers.

719 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:41:56pm

Okay, who the hell let George Galloway in here?

720 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:41:57pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

Oh, do shut up already.

721 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:41:58pm

re: #715 Naso Tang

Are you by chance employed by the UN Human Rights Council?

Or, the Alliance of Civilizations?

722 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:42:25pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch
They could've had a state while Clinton was President, but Arafish said NO! Israel is protecting its citizens as best it can. I'm sorry for the common folks of Gaza. But I'm even sorrier for the folks in Israel, who've lived with being surrounded on 3 sides, with the ocean at their back, with people whose declared goal was to wipe them off the map. Fuck you and your moral equivelency crap.

723 webevintage  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:42:36pm

re: #643 JasonA

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy,

What are we looking at if this happens?

So this is all just to try and provoke Isreal because if people wanted to send supplies to Gaza they would just fucking allow the cargo to be inspected. I'm assuming these supply vessels are also a great way for terrorists to get around?

724 Spare O'Lake  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:42:47pm

re: #715 Naso Tang

Are you by chance employed by the UN Human Rights Council?

Nah, too moderate.

725 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:42:49pm

re: #719 Slumbering Behemoth

Okay, who the hell let George Galloway in here?

Maybe it's McKinney. Or, Carter. Or, Chomsky.

726 McSpiff  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:42:55pm

re: #717 tradewind

(almost) Nobody worries/cares about irrelevant typos that don't change the meaning of a post.

Tradewind, I'd like to introduce you to my friend Cato over here.

727 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:43:22pm

re: #719 Slumbering Behemoth
He does have a lot of time on his hands lately......

728 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:43:23pm

re: #706 researchok

I'm trying to be nice.

Won't last much longer.

Here. Lemme pour you a Basil Hayden's from Mandy's stash. You don't mind, do ya, 'Mans?

729 Achilles Tang  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:43:29pm

re: #721 MandyManners

Or, the Alliance of Civilizations?

The inter-stellar one?

730 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:43:51pm

re: #715 Naso Tang

Are you by chance employed by the UN Human Rights Council?

More likely he's in the NY chapter of ISM rather than in the Turtle Bay club....

731 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:44:04pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

..."advocating genocide," can't we very clearly see similar statements of genocidal intent expressed by elements of the Israeli far-right (who presently find themselves in the highest corridors of power)?...


You are a tool and a liar. Nice job.

732 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:44:07pm

re: #637 Hieronymus Bosch

My phrasing lacked precision -- Hamas has accepted in principle the declaration of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed in 1967. As early as 2002, Hamas leadership expressed support for Saudi peace efforts (which would see Israel return to its 1967 borders and receive fully normalized diplomatic relations with Arab League states) and proclaimed themselves willing to end all armed attacks against Israel in the event of such a peace deal.

You are an overflowing reservoir of raw sewage, a one-person poonami.

733 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:44:26pm

re: #726 McSpiff

Tradewind, I'd like to introduce you to my friend Cato over here.

You did get a dog-pile wedgie, didn't ya'?

734 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:44:45pm

re: #726 McSpiff
I did say ' almost '.

735 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:45:02pm

re: #705 albusteve

The simple fact is that Israel chose to end this cycle of hate when it signed the Oslo accord. A society shattering act which still resonates in every Israeli consciousness, never mind if he agrees or not.
Now, Israel is out of Gaza after yet another society shattering action.
Hamas, taking the rain by force (and please reply it was democratic elections...) is IN FACT responsible for what's going on in there.
There are billions of dollars in aid going in there. Ever since Rabin shook Arafat's hand it's been flowing like crazy. If that money was channeled to Africa or Haiti, it would have been much better utilized and definitely not for terror.
Those who place blame or responsibility equally on both sides, simply perpetuate the situation.

736 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:45:06pm

re: #729 Naso Tang

The inter-stellar one?

This one.

737 rustinpuppets  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:45:36pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

Don't you have something better to do than chant these pathetic mantras?

738 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:45:44pm

re: #731 The Shadow Do

You are a tool and a liar. Nice job.

A lying tool or a tooling liar? Both?

739 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:45:48pm

re: #732 Alouette
Well, that phrasing certainly didn't lack precision....
:)

740 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:45:55pm

re: #715 Naso Tang

Are you by chance employed by the UN Human Rights Council?

Bosch is the nick the UNHRC uses.

741 McSpiff  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:45:57pm

re: #733 MandyManners

You did get a dog-pile wedgie, didn't ya'?

All in good fun. No hurt feelings over here.

742 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:46:01pm

re: #682 McSpiff

Hopefully a coupe.

Not impossible at all. I suspect that the Turkish general staff has already laid down the law to Erdogan and his Saudi-influenced gang: They can go only so far in appeasing Islamic extremists.
Thanks to diligent missionary activity by the usual suspects, such extremism has grown by leaps and bounds in Turkey in recent years. Even so, there are still many, many Turks who idolize Ataturk and his secular state. Some of these resent seeing the country subverted and bought off by fanatics whose own countries were the backward fringe of the Turkish Empire less than 100 years ago.

743 2senseplain  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:46:09pm

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

No, restrictions against travel on certain roads are on non-Israelis, not Jewish use of roads only. Israeli Arab citizens have the same yellow license plates and travel rights as anyone else. And unfortunately terrorist organizations take advantage of the free mobility of Israeli Arabs. However, residents of the Palestinian Authority do not have full rights to use Israeli roads. It does indeed cause inconveniece to a lot of people but there is more than good reason for it.

744 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:46:17pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

Perhaps the poverty level and other badness is self-inflicted?

745 tradewind  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:47:02pm

Out. Happy Memorial Day, ya'll.

746 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:47:05pm

re: #744 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Perhaps the poverty level and other badness is self-inflicted?

Hamas and their supporters, in perspective:

While poverty, child abuse and corrupt politics may influence a person or society, in the end, the ‘root cause’ of most ugly, vicious and immoral acts is an immoral character.

747 abolitionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:47:05pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

Take a few minutes to read (and understand) the Hamas Charter. We're willing to wait. Most of us anyway.

748 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:47:22pm

re: #724 Spare O'Lake

Nah, too moderate.

Burn!!!!

749 webevintage  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:47:25pm

In case anyone is interested my NPR is playing a radio program about the war in the Pacific.
I assume others are too.

750 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:47:50pm

re: #689 Bagua

It is amazing how the anti-Semites swallow every thinly disguised turd that gives them a chance to rail against Israel.

If those were US Coast Guard or Navy officers being beaten with iron bars, stabbed and thrown overboard would they be here calling them "peace activists" in "international waters?"

Quite probably.

751 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:48:02pm

re: #747 abolitionist

Take a few minutes to read (and understand) the Hamas Charter. We're willing to wait. Most of us anyway.

I think you are being charitable indeed...

752 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:48:29pm

When nations that are that are led by or are under the influence of tyrants or dictators, attempt to justify those actions, we can rightly assume that justification is false. Tyrants and dictators do not make moral choices, because moral choices can only lead to the demise of the tyranny.

Anyone that comes to the defense of tyrannical regimes and their leaders, have themselves made a conscious choice to defend and stand by what is immoral. They themselves consciously adopt an immoral posture.

753 Hieronymus Bosch  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:48:32pm

re: #714 Gus 802

Weren't Lehi and Irgun also terrorist groups?

Zionist organizations were contemplating ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Palestine as early as the 1890s. Do we see this as genocidal?

Presently isn't Avigdor Lieberman Israel's foreign minister? Wasn't he a member of Meir Kahane's genocidalist Kach party (which was banned as racist by the Israeli Supreme Court)? Doesn't Lieberman today propose "population transfer" (ethnic cleansing) as a solution to the Palestinian "problem"?

754 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:48:56pm

re: #700 Hieronymus Bosch

Why don't sit back and watch some Palestinian children's entertainment?

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

755 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:49:07pm

re: #749 webevintage

In case anyone is interested my NPR is playing a radio program about the war in the Pacific.
I assume others are too.

they do seem to be a bit behind the times...

756 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:49:17pm

re: #753 Hieronymus Bosch

Weren't Lehi and Irgun also terrorist groups?

Zionist organizations were contemplating ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Palestine as early as the 1890s. Do we see this as genocidal?

Presently isn't Avigdor Lieberman Israel's foreign minister? Wasn't he a member of Meir Kahane's genocidalist Kach party (which was banned as racist by the Israeli Supreme Court)? Doesn't Lieberman today propose "population transfer" (ethnic cleansing) as a solution to the Palestinian "problem"?

it's 2010....and fuck off

757 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:49:28pm

re: #743 2senseplain

No, restrictions against travel on certain roads are on non-Israelis, not Jewish use of roads only. Israeli Arab citizens have the same yellow license plates and travel rights as anyone else. And unfortunately terrorist organizations take advantage of the free mobility of Israeli Arabs. However, residents of the Palestinian Authority do not have full rights to use Israeli roads. It does indeed cause inconveniece to a lot of people but there is more than good reason for it.

About those Israeli Arab citizens,...

758 Spare O'Lake  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:50:18pm

re: #682 McSpiff

Hopefully a coupe.

Just as likely to be a sedan as a coupe.

759 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:50:34pm

re: #747 abolitionist

Take a few minutes to read (and understand) the Hamas Charter. We're willing to wait. Most of us anyway.

Here's a link.

760 ryannon  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:50:45pm

re: #651 researchok

Noise. They do that and there goes their EU membership bid. If they fired a shot the Israelis would dispatch the vessel.

It's all for domestic consumption.

Their EU membership bid is dead. They've nothing to lose on that score, and they know it.

761 PhillyPretzel  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:52:10pm

With a very hot topic such as this one there is always a troll to muddy the waters.

762 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:52:51pm

From Alouette.


Youtube Video
763 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:53:09pm

re: #758 Spare O'Lake

Just as likely to be a sedan as a coupe.

I hope not:
Sedan

Btw:

On March 2, 2005 Ellen Tauscher, a Democratic member of the U.S. House of Representatives representing the state of California, gave congressional testimony on the containment of nuclear testing debris, using the Sedan test as an example of one which produced a considerable amount of radioactive fallout. The word Sedan was incorrectly transcribed as Sudan in the Congressional Record. Within days of the error, the international community took notice. Sudanese officials responded to this stating that "the Sudanese government takes this issue seriously and with extreme importance," and China's Xinhua General News Service even went so far as to publish an article claiming that the Sudanese government had blamed the U.S. for raising cancer rates among the Sudanese people.[12] Despite the U.S. embassy in Khartoum issuing a statement regarding the error, the Sudanese Foreign Minister, Mustafa Osman Ismail, stated that they would continue investigating.[13]
764 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:53:41pm

re: #761 PhillyPretzel

With a very hot topic such as this one there is always a troll to muddy the waters.

Stinky, throw another gamy buttocks on the barbie!

765 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:53:46pm

re: #761 PhillyPretzel

With a very hot topic such as this one there is always a troll to muddy the waters.

Yes. But the gaminess of the buttocks on such a glorious BBQ day ...

766 ryannon  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:53:46pm

re: #661 tradewind

Ruh-roh, it's out of the suburbs?
So you are in Paris? Keep us informed. And be careful.

I don't have a lot to be careful about, meaning that I'm out of the potential war-zones. I post if there are any newsworthy developments out in the 'burbs. For the time being, the action appears to be centered in Paris.

767 Velvet Elvis  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:53:50pm

re: #723 webevintage

So this is all just to try and provoke Isreal because if people wanted to send supplies to Gaza they would just fucking allow the cargo to be inspected. I'm assuming these supply vessels are also a great way for terrorists to get around?

They won't let anything needed to rebuild infrastructure through, as well as a lot of other stuff.

768 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:54:07pm

re: #753 Hieronymus Bosch

Weren't Lehi and Irgun also terrorist groups?

Zionist organizations were contemplating ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Palestine as early as the 1890s. Do we see this as genocidal?

Presently isn't Avigdor Lieberman Israel's foreign minister? Wasn't he a member of Meir Kahane's genocidalist Kach party (which was banned as racist by the Israeli Supreme Court)? Doesn't Lieberman today propose "population transfer" (ethnic cleansing) as a solution to the Palestinian "problem"?

I doubt there is much I can say Mr. Galloway. I could bring up other history including Hitler's meetings with the Palestinians and/or Husseini.

769 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:54:37pm

re: #764 Alouette

Stinky, throw another gamy buttocks on the barbie!

GMTA!!!!!1111one!!1

770 ryannon  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:55:05pm

re: #661 tradewind

And thank you for your concern...

771 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:55:15pm

re: #765 Gang of One

Yes. But the gaminess of the buttocks on such a glorious BBQ day ...

no reason for that

772 Hieronymus Bosch  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:55:31pm

re: #756 albusteve

The point is that military forces associated with non-state actors tend to be described as "terrorists" -- before the Zionists had a state, their own right-wing militias were condemned as terrorists by virtually everyone.

And, yes, it's 2010 and Israel is creeping further and further to the right and openly disregarding the will of its closest ally, the U.S. Do you think Netanyahu was right or that Obama was regarding settlement expansions? Are you one of the types who thinks Obama is a secret Muslim for not agreeing with Israel all the time?

773 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:55:59pm

re: #772 Hieronymus Bosch

fuck off

774 Nimed  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:56:03pm

Fuck. The second video pretty much says it all. I was reading the trollishy comments of drcordell, but became nauseated from reading the word flotilla too many times.

Why flotilla all of a sudden? I suppose Columbus crossed crossed the Atlantic in a flotilla, but we somehow managed to avoid the awful word.

775 webevintage  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:56:48pm

re: #762 MandyManners

From Alouette.

[Video]

Ummmm.
Wow.
I think the Daily Show did a segment on one of these cracked out "hate the Jews" kiddie shows.

(why are all the kids puppets?)

776 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:56:53pm

re: #771 albusteve

no reason for that

Did I make a no-no?
//hangs head and twists fore-foot in the sand ...

777 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:57:02pm

Ugh, my head is a little congested.

778 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:57:32pm

re: #772 Hieronymus Bosch

The only reply you'll get from me, and the only one you deserve:

GAZE!

779 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:58:03pm

re: #772 Hieronymus Bosch
If my closest ally called for my country to commit suicide, I wouldn't listen either.

780 Achilles Tang  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:58:35pm

re: #736 MandyManners

This one.

Great. Obama is proving to be a slower learner than I had hoped./

Still, what better place to get egg on one's face?//

781 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:59:18pm

re: #772 Hieronymus Bosch

The point is that military forces associated with non-state actors tend to be described as "terrorists" -- before the Zionists had a state, their own right-wing militias were condemned as terrorists by virtually everyone.

Hamas are terrorists, they are non state, always have been and always will be. PKK, the Naxalites, IRA, MEK, all are terrorists, always have been, always will be. You don't get to to go from Terrorist to Political in my book until you overthrow the old charter, denounce it, throw out the old leaders, and rename yourself. HAMAS hasn't done any of the above.

782 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:59:25pm

Does anybody have a link to the list of banned imports into Gaza?

783 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 12:59:33pm

re: #776 Gang of One

Did I make a no-no?
//hangs head and twists fore-foot in the sand ...

opposite points of view fuel the debate...even tho I'm not listening to them...if and when needed Stinky works his magic

784 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:00:12pm

re: #698 McSpiff

Do we know why some ships apparently went peaceful while two did not? Sudden out break of common sense? Or was each ship being crewed by a separate group (this was a coalition thing wasn't it?)?

I think all the folks who planned to fight were in one group, IHH-organized, and all on the Mavi Marmara.

785 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:00:15pm

re: #753 Hieronymus Bosch

Weren't Lehi and Irgun also terrorist groups?

Zionist organizations were contemplating ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Palestine as early as the 1890s. Do we see this as genocidal?

Presently isn't Avigdor Lieberman Israel's foreign minister? Wasn't he a member of Meir Kahane's genocidalist Kach party (which was banned as racist by the Israeli Supreme Court)? Doesn't Lieberman today propose "population transfer" (ethnic cleansing) as a solution to the Palestinian "problem"?

Prick, do you really want to play the comparison game? Do you really want to go there?

How many times have the Palestinians warned Israelis to get out of the way?

Now, pay attention and learn because you clearly don't deal with reality well. Reciting talking points is not a mark of with or intelligence.

What we are witnessing today is the out of control and barbaric behaviors of whole societies that have been infected with ideologies that encourage and demand dysfunctional behaviors. By design, these behaviors are meant to intimidate and threaten. We shouldn’t be surprised, of course. Western media and morons like you created the stage where that kind of behavior was perfectly acceptable. For some, terror has become an acceptable form of political expression.

What were once acknowledged as universal laws no longer exist in the Palestinian/Arab world. What was once assumed to be understood as universal expressions of civilized behavior are no longer a reality in the Palestinian/Arab world.

The civilized world understands the rule of law. The ideals of human rights are meant for all, rights that include free speech, a free press, and the need for rules that cross borders and languages. We and the Israelis have to deal with societies and cultures that that use hospitals and schools to shield terrorists, and Houses of Worship are as armories.

You can negotiate with like minded people who share similar values. To be clear- you cannot negotiate as equals with people who believe for example, that children are fodder, to hide behind and used as human shields, counting that our civility will not address their barbarity. We cannot deal with as equals those who believe that children are disposable chattel, as they were in Beslan, for example

Why on earth would you believe that negotiating with people for whom beheading and kidnappings are celebrated with fervor and joy might be productive? You aren’t even speaking the same moral language! What do you think can be accomplished with people for whom the mutilation of corpses takes place within view of frenzied, dancing mobs? How can you negotiate with people decapitated and then used his head used as a soccer ball and later displayed that head on a table during on a Palestinian TV talk show?

Honor those for whom real values have meaning. Pretend you're civilized and human rights actually mean something.

If only for today, Hieronymus Bosch, if only for today.

786 Nimed  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:00:24pm

re: #772 Hieronymus Bosch

The point is that military forces associated with non-state actors tend to be described as "terrorists" -- before the Zionists had a state, their own right-wing militias were condemned as terrorists by virtually everyone.

And, yes, it's 2010 and Israel is creeping further and further to the right and openly disregarding the will of its closest ally, the U.S. Do you think Netanyahu was right or that Obama was regarding settlement expansions? Are you one of the types who thinks Obama is a secret Muslim for not agreeing with Israel all the time?

If you're trying to beat drcordell, I suggest you use the word "flotilla" more often. That last sentence is just plain boring.

787 dugmartsch  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:01:36pm

re: #641 jordash1212

It is a long shot, but you do know who Bernard Lewis is, right? The man is an expert of Turkey and of the Middle East in general.

Experts are awesome at describing history but lets be kind and say their predictive powers have been oversold.

788 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:02:00pm

How many Palestinians has HAMAS murdered? Just because they haven't thrown anyone off a roof this week doesn't mean they won't next week.

789 2senseplain  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:02:10pm

re: #767 Conservative Moonbat

Because Hamas grabs stuff to rebuild infrastructure to build a network of bunkers and tunnels a la Hisbollah in anticipation of the next Cast Lead operation, which is probably just a matter of time. Sugar, pipes, fertilizer, all sorts of innocent-seeming products are potential problems so, understandably, Israel doesn't want to hand Hamas a stick to beat us with. They also steal medicines and a lot of other things that come through for their own use but, nevertheless, a tremedous amount of the nessecities of life arrive regularly, supplemented on a grand scale by the tunnel-smuggling which is also a big Hamas money-maker. Hamas LIKES things like this. It serves their purposes very well.

790 Hieronymus Bosch  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:02:11pm

re: #773 albusteve

fuck off

Ok. You keep cheering on the extreme-right, the religious fanatics, and the racialist fascists, and I'll keep hoping that moderates in America can apply diplomatic and economic pressure to rein in the extremists in Israel.

791 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:02:35pm

re: #735 american_peanuts

The simple fact is that Israel chose to end this cycle of hate when it signed the Oslo accord. A society shattering act which still resonates in every Israeli consciousness, never mind if he agrees or not.
Now, Israel is out of Gaza after yet another society shattering action.
Hamas, taking the rain by force (and please reply it was democratic elections...) is IN FACT responsible for what's going on in there.
There are billions of dollars in aid going in there. Ever since Rabin shook Arafat's hand it's been flowing like crazy. If that money was channeled to Africa or Haiti, it would have been much better utilized and definitely not for terror.
Those who place blame or responsibility equally on both sides, simply perpetuate the situation.

Israel has gone above and beyond in order to placate the haters and appeasers. Any action they take, in my opinion, is summarily justified in a lot of cases, this being one of them.

792 Velvet Elvis  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:02:42pm

re: #782 pingjockey

Does anybody have a link to the list of banned imports into Gaza?

It's ever changing. It included ipads for a while but I think they just dropped that one. It includes weird things like chocolate, candy and coriander.

793 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:03:22pm

re: #788 Thanos

How many Palestinians has HAMAS murdered? Just because they haven't thrown anyone off a roof this week doesn't mean they won't next week.

THOUSANDS over the years in the case of Hamas. TENS OF THOUSANDS in the case of the PLO.

794 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:03:34pm

re: #775 webevintage

Ummm.
Wow.
I think the Daily Show did a segment on one of these cracked out "hate the Jews" kiddie shows.

(why are all the kids puppets?)

You can find more in the archives here and at PMW.

795 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:03:43pm

someone just shot up a hospital in Pakistan...12 dead...I can't imagine who would do such a thing...something is ramping up

796 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:04:07pm

re: #790 Hieronymus Bosch

You are the one cheering for the Religious fanatics in HAMAS, and their friends Islamic Jihad...

797 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:04:21pm

re: #790 Hieronymus Bosch

Ok. You keep cheering on the extreme-right, the religious fanatics, and the racialist fascists, and I'll keep hoping that moderates in America can apply diplomatic and economic pressure to rein in the extremists in Israel.

I haven't posted a word about that....fuck off

798 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:04:58pm

re: #736 MandyManners

This one.

The Obama administration has made it extremely clear that they are opposed to the OIC's efforts to criminalize criticism of Islam -- Hillary Clinton gave a speech about it recently and made it clear that the US stands for free speech and not for blasphemy laws.

In that context, it makes more sense for the US to join the United Nations Alliance of Civilizations in order to have more influence in fighting against the nations who are trying to restrict speech in the name of religion.

799 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:05:20pm

Has this been posted yet?


Youtube Video
800 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:05:20pm

re: #795 albusteve

someone just shot up a hospital in Pakistan...12 dead...I can't imagine who would do such a thing...something is ramping up

it seems that the forces of evil sense weakness...

801 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:05:38pm

re: #795 albusteve

someone just shot up a hospital in Pakistan...12 dead...I can't imagine who would do such a thing...something is ramping up

Why? Why attack a hospital? Seriously, it's hard to wrap one's head around it.

802 blueraven  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:05:58pm

Though I certainly understand Israel's position here, they made some very bad decisions on how to handle it.

The PR on this is going to look bad. I wish they would have tried to fire to disable the flotilla ships engines. Its just a freaking nightmare that could have been handled better.

803 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:06:00pm

re: #573 Obdicut

No it's not. Judging people based on who doesn't downding a post is stupid. People might skip the post, for example. Interwebs psychiatry is always a silly game to play.

Agreed a million times

There's a zillion reasons I don't downding something bad, and the most important is I DIDN'T READ IT lol.

804 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:06:10pm

re: #800 brookly red

it seems that the forces of evil sense weakness...

they would be right

805 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:06:34pm

Well, gotta enjoy the festivities made possible by:

Late Grandfather W.W. I
Late Uncles W.W.II
Father Korea
Brothers Army

My blood has fought hard and well in the service of this country and I am grateful to them and all those who fought along side the cause of freedom.

Later all.

806 Hieronymus Bosch  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:06:39pm

re: #785 researchok

Sorry, but I really don't speak the same moral language as Meir Kahane or Avigdor Lieberman. Do you? Do you think racism is ok for certain groups but not others?

And doesn't Israeli television have, um, a few problems, too?

Wondering if true colors are starting to come out here again.... what I'm seeing is just Palinesque and rabid, like the old days.

807 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:06:42pm

re: #801 JasonA

Why? Why attack a hospital? Seriously, it's hard to wrap one's head around it.

/a moving school bus is harder to hit *spit*

808 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:06:50pm

re: #795 albusteve

someone just shot up a hospital in Pakistan...12 dead...I can't imagine who would do such a thing...something is ramping up

Most likely they are going after the surviving Ahmadiyas who are being treated in the hospital after the earlier Taliban attacks.

809 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:07:13pm

re: #802 blueraven

Though I certainly understand Israel's position here, they made some very bad decisions on how to handle it.

The PR on this is going to look bad. I wish they would have tried to fire to disable the flotilla ships engines. Its just a freaking nightmare that could have been handled better.

right, they should have go down the ropes guns akimbo

810 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:08:03pm

re: #808 Thanos

Most likely they are going after the surviving Ahmadiyas who are being treated in the hospital after the earlier Taliban attacks.

I only saw a banner up at CNN....thanks

811 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:08:12pm

Hamas Fact Sheet

Terrorism and Violence:

Hamas launched its campaign of violence in 1989, first against Israeli soldiers and suspected Palestinian collaborators, and then against Israeli civilians. In the wake of the Oslo agreement, Hamas leaders intensified their rhetoric and vowed to derail the peace process through violent attacks. Drive-by shootings, firebombings and stabbings increased. Suicide missions began in April 1994, when a Hamas suicide bomber rammed an explosives-laden car into a bus in Afula killing eight and wounding 50 others.

Since that time Hamas has claimed responsibility for hundreds of attacks against Israeli civilian and military targets. Israeli security sources have thwarted scores more. Following Israel's unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, Hamas carried out dozens of rocket attacks against civilian targets in southern Israel. According to the Israel Defense Forces, through suicide bombings and other violent attacks, Hamas has killed nearly 300 Israelis since September 2000, and wounded over 2,000.

While Hamas agreed to a ceasefire or "tahdia" on terrorist operations in March 2005, according to Israeli sources, Hamas continued to plan and perpetrate terrorist attacks, and helped provide support for attacks claimed by other terrorist organizations.

Through systematic religious and political indoctrination and social pressure, Hamas leaders recruit young Palestinian men for suicide missions and other attacks. Hamas has also recruited beyond the West Bank and Gaza. According to Israeli sources, Hamas has recruited and operated a number of Israeli Arab terror cells. In June 2003, Israel indicted five senior officials of the Israeli Arab Islamic Movement, including movement leader Sheikh Ra'ad Salah, on various terrorism-related charges including membership in Hamas and raising funds abroad for Hamas agencies in the West Bank and Gaza. According to Israeli sources, two British Muslim suicide bombers who blew up a pub in Tel Aviv in April 2003 were Hamas recruits dispatched by the Hamas military command in Gaza.

Financial Support:

Hamas enjoys strong financial backing from Iran (an estimated $20 - $30 million), private benefactors and Muslim charities in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, Palestinian expatriates across the globe and American donors. Its budget has been estimated at $70 million and 85 percent of it reportedly comes from abroad; the remaining 15 percent is raised among Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. A number of Americans and U.S.-based charities have been implicated in funneling money to Hamas. It is estimated that Saudi Arabia continues to channel between $12 - $14 million to Hamas annually. At a June 2003 press conference, Adel al-Jubeir, a senior adviser to the Saudi Crown Prince, did acknowledge that many Palestinian institutions funded by the Saudis may be run or managed by the political wing of Hamas.

Syria remains a key center for Hamas operations, and the Assad regime provides support and protection to key Hamas leadership based in Damascus.

812 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:08:38pm

re: #798 Charles

The Obama administration has made it extremely clear that they are opposed to the OIC's efforts to criminalize criticism of Islam -- Hillary Clinton made a speech about it recently and made it clear that the US stands for free speech and not for blasphemy laws.

In that context, it makes more sense for the US to join the United Nations Alliance of Civilizations in order to have more influence in fighting against the nations who are trying to restrict speech in the name of religion.


What about this, then?

The United States has strongly supported Pakistan’s move to ban certain internet sites, saying the Pakistani government had the right to protect its public from offensive images and speech.
At a briefing at the State Department, Assistant Secretary of State Philip J. Crowley also noted that images on a Facebook page were deeply offensive to Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

The United States, he said, was against any “deliberate attempt to offend Muslims” and respected their right to practise their faith as they willed.

SNIP

813 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:08:57pm

re: #806 Hieronymus Bosch

Was that a children's show? No, I didn't think so. If you can't see the difference then you are fucking blind.

814 Nimed  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:09:05pm

re: #806 Hieronymus Bosch

Wondering if true colors are starting to come out here again... what I'm seeing is just Palinesque and rabid, like the old days.

Oh, please. Suck my flotilla.

815 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:09:06pm

OT:

From the Hay Literary Festival Adam Boulton discusses the future for Afghanistan with Rory Stewart MP, Christopher Hitchens and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

816 McSpiff  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:09:22pm

re: #802 blueraven

Though I certainly understand Israel's position here, they made some very bad decisions on how to handle it.

The PR on this is going to look bad. I wish they would have tried to fire to disable the flotilla ships engines. Its just a freaking nightmare that could have been handled better.

Exactly. I fully support what Israel did, but it was not the slickest op they've ever pulled.

817 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:09:56pm

re: #806 Hieronymus Bosch

Sorry, but I really don't speak the same moral language as Meir Kahane or Avigdor Lieberman. Do you? Do you think racism is ok for certain groups but not others?

And doesn't Israeli television have, um, a few problems, too?

Wondering if true colors are starting to come out here again... what I'm seeing is just Palinesque and rabid, like the old days.

PAY ATTENTION!

They were not speaking for governments- unlike the vitriol that is heard every day in Arab world media, in schools and preached from pulpits.

Why doesn't that seem to bother you? What is it about the Israelis you find so troubling? You do seem to be rather obsessed....

818 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:10:16pm

re: #791 Oh no...Sand People!

If you could read Hebrew (you might be...) you'd see that the Israeli "word" right now is FU, why are we behaving like bunch of sissies, WE ARE GOOD.

BUT - I live in LA. I hear, read and see things people do and sometimes the lies go so far and the dis-information is SOOOO deep, I have no clue where to start.

If you saw the live stream yesterday, that BI#$CH with red burka, kept saying, we are peaceful, we are peaceful, there are kids on board, we are peaceful. If you choose to believe that, how can I convise you (them...) otherwise ? or at least point to the truth without being a Zionist-Baby-Murderer ?

I am really frustrated.

819 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:10:16pm

re: #814 Nimed

Oh, please. Suck my flotilla.

Very creative!

820 Nimed  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:10:47pm

re: #814 Nimed

Oh, please. Suck my flotilla.

(marked for deletion, but worth it)

821 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:11:42pm

re: #806 Hieronymus Bosch

Sorry, but I really don't speak the same moral language as Meir Kahane or Avigdor Lieberman. Do you? Do you think racism is ok for certain groups but not others?

And doesn't Israeli television have, um, a few problems, too?

Wondering if true colors are starting to come out here again... what I'm seeing is just Palinesque and rabid, like the old days.

So, when all else fails reach for the ad hominum? I don't see anything remotely resembling the old days here as you describe.

822 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:12:13pm

The Stand is on SciFi. Spooky.

823 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:12:19pm

re: #805 Oh no...Sand People!

Bless them.

824 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:12:59pm

re: #821 Gus 802

So, when all else fails reach for the ad hominum? I don't see anything remotely resembling the old days here as you describe.

he's a flowery worded punk...brainwashed
he can fuck off

825 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:13:38pm

re: #806 Hieronymus Bosch

Sorry, but I really don't speak the same moral language as Meir Kahane or Avigdor Lieberman. Do you? Do you think racism is ok for certain groups but not others?

And doesn't Israeli television have, um, a few problems, too?

Wondering if true colors are starting to come out here again... what I'm seeing is just Palinesque and rabid, like the old days.

The douchery never stops.

826 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:13:39pm

re: #821 Gus 802

So, when all else fails reach for the ad hominum? I don't see anything remotely resembling the old days here as you describe.

Well, his colors came out early on....

827 dugmartsch  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:13:45pm

re: #640 pingjockey

They don't have to worry about the int'l outrage over hanging gays, stoning women to death, or murdering protestors. Israel, even when it has been attacked, provoked, etc...must NOT fight back, or they'll be condemed by the int'l asshats.

"Just imagine if a flotilla of anti-Tehran activists were attacked in international waters by Iran's Revolutionary Guards, and that the Guards killed 16 or more of the civilians. What do you think Commentary would be saying then?"

Imagine you are a douchebag. Imagine you had to write about things you couldn't know any less about. What kind of things would you think, what kinds of things would you write?

Things like these.

828 hanoch  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:13:50pm

re: #577 Hieronymus Bosch

Hamas presently publicly accepts in premise such a solution but Israel does not, and that at least displays something.

You really need to get your facts straight. Here is part of the text of Article 13 of the Hamas Charter:

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion . . . . There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.

I don't think that could be any clearer.

I could go through your posts and do the same with every factual statement you have made but my sense is it would be an utter waste of time.

829 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:14:01pm

re: #814 Nimed

HEHE...

Mine is a flotZilla, and he is welcome to suck it too :-)

830 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:14:16pm

re: #825 Alouette

The douchery never stops.

well we could try not to feed it? just a thought...

831 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:14:22pm

On CNN now, talking to a Pali spokesman and over 500 protestors in Times Square. They aren't protesting Hamas rocket launches.

832 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:14:27pm

Sully's getting dumber with each post:

Just imagine if a flotilla of anti-Tehran activists were attacked in international waters by Iran's Revolutionary Guards, and that the Guards killed 16 or more of the civilians. What do you think Commentary would be saying then?
833 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:14:44pm

re: #830 brookly red

well we could try not to feed it? just a thought...

correct

834 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:15:13pm

re: #830 brookly red

well we could try not to feed it? just a thought...

Well-fed trolls have nice and juicy gamy buttocks.

835 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:15:31pm

re: #832 JasonA

Sully's getting dumber with each post:

I'll bite. The EU nations would mull it over for the next two weeks.

836 wrenchwench  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:15:37pm

re: #806 Hieronymus Bosch

Wondering if true colors are starting to come out here again... what I'm seeing is just Palinesque and rabid, like the old days.

The old days? Back at the end of March, when you registered?

837 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:15:51pm

re: #834 Alouette

Well-fed trolls have nice and juicy gamy buttocks.

you are what you eat...

838 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:15:59pm

re: #827 dugmartsch
Bullshit. The international media and the UN could care less when the mad mullahs hang gays from cranes, or shoot protestors.

839 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:16:01pm

re: #802 blueraven

Though I certainly understand Israel's position here, they made some very bad decisions on how to handle it.

The PR on this is going to look bad. I wish they would have tried to fire to disable the flotilla ships engines. Its just a freaking nightmare that could have been handled better.

It's been pointed out above by some in the know that boarding was the only viable option. Other remedies would run the risk of sinking ships and wounding/killing some on board. It took a tremendous amount of courage for some to board as they did under the ROE's. It's clear that the Israelis were not going to do anything to provoke violence (paint guns and pistols) and even after brought against them they showed tremendous restraint.

There is zero chance for good PR if you are Jewish by the way.

840 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:16:08pm

re: #812 MandyManners

The Pakistani Headline writer characterized it as "Strong support"... meanwhile if you read down in the article here's the diplospeak jumble that can be interpreted both ways, which ain't exactly "Strong support" in my book...

“At the same time, Pakistan has to make sure that in taking any particular action, that you’re not restricting speech to the millions and millions of people who are connected to the internet and have a universal right to the free flow of information,” he added.

Meanwhile, Scott Rubin, a spokesman for YouTube, said the site was working with Pakistani telecommunication officials to resolve the issue and that “we hope we restore service soon”. He added: “This is up to Pakistan telecom authority.”

“Obviously, this is a difficult and challenging issue,” said the State Department official while commenting on the developments.

“Many of the images that appear on Facebook were deeply offensive to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. We are deeply concerned about any deliberate attempt to offend Muslims or members of any other religious groups,” said Mr Crowley.

“We do not condone offensive speech that can incite violence or hatred.”

841 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:16:53pm

re: #836 wrenchwench

The old days? Back at the end of March, when you registered?

people can read the site without registering ;-)

842 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:16:58pm

re: #822 MandyManners

The Stand is on SciFi. Spooky.

Baby, Can You Dig Your Man...

843 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:17:26pm

Wow, Breitbart's going nuts on Twitter.

844 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:17:28pm

re: #786 Nimed

If you're trying to beat drcordell, I suggest you use the word "flotilla" more often. That last sentence is just plain boring.

We did a vocabulary lesson with my ninth graders that was all Spanish words that made it into English. My kids can not be convinced that it's not supposed to be 'flow-TEE-yah', which also sounds better to me.

845 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:17:38pm

re: #841 WindUpBird

people can read the site without registering ;-)

It was still a funny line, though.

846 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:17:48pm

re: #842 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
The book was better.

847 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:17:50pm

re: #788 Thanos

How many Palestinians has HAMAS murdered? Just because they haven't thrown anyone off a roof this week doesn't mean they won't next week.

They haven't thrown anyone off a roof this week?

848 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:18:47pm

9 flotilla protesters dead, 4 Israeli soldiers killed. So much for disproportionate response.

The Israelis might be less restrained in the future- a good idea, IMO.

849 Cato the Elder  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:18:51pm

re: #842 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Baby, Can You Dig Your Man...

He's a Righteous Man!

850 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:19:04pm

re: #790 Hieronymus Bosch

Ok. You keep cheering on the extreme-right, the religious fanatics, and the racialist fascists, and I'll keep hoping that moderates in America can apply diplomatic and economic pressure to rein in the extremists in Israel.

What the fuck are you talking about? Bosch, you are a point-man for the very demons you excoriate: "the extreme-right, the religious fanatics, and the racialist fascists" that you spew about. Just STFU already.

851 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:19:07pm

re: #790 Hieronymus Bosch

Ok. You keep cheering on the extreme-right, the religious fanatics, and the racialist fascists, and I'll keep hoping that moderates in America can apply diplomatic and economic pressure to rein in the extremists in Israel.

Who, exactly, is cheering on the extreme right here?

852 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:19:13pm

re: #844 SanFranciscoZionist

We did a vocabulary lesson with my ninth graders that was all Spanish words that made it into English. My kids can not be convinced that it's not supposed to be 'flow-TEE-yah', which also sounds better to me.

God-ZEE- ya?

853 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:19:20pm

re: #843 Charles

Wow, Breitbart's going nuts on Twitter.

An army of idiots.

854 Nimed  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:19:39pm

re: #829 american_peanuts

HEHE...

Mine is a flotZilla, and he is welcome to suck it too :-)

There's something about concern trolls that brings out the worst in you. But hey, upding for your imaginative pun while our vulgar comments stand.

855 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:19:58pm

re: #851 SanFranciscoZionist

Who, exactly, is cheering on the extreme right here?

me!....mwahahaha!

856 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:20:13pm

re: #790 Hieronymus Bosch

Ok. You keep cheering on the extreme-right, the religious fanatics, and the racialist fascists, and I'll keep hoping that moderates in America can apply diplomatic and economic pressure to rein in the extremists in Israel.

And no suggestions to reign in Hamas?

Speaks volumes.

857 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:20:59pm

re: #851 SanFranciscoZionist
All of us folks defending Israels right to defend itself.

858 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:21:09pm

re: #848 researchok

9 flotilla protesters dead, 4 Israeli soldiers killed. So much for disproportionate response.

The Israelis might be less restrained in the future- a good idea, IMO.

what ever happened to the shot across the bow?

859 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:21:11pm

re: #806 Hieronymus Bosch

Sorry, but I really don't speak the same moral language as Meir Kahane or Avigdor Lieberman. Do you? Do you think racism is ok for certain groups but not others?

And doesn't Israeli television have, um, a few problems, too?

Wondering if true colors are starting to come out here again... what I'm seeing is just Palinesque and rabid, like the old days.

No, I don't think racism is 'OK for certain groups, but not for others', which is why I spit on Kahane and Lieberman.

Do YOU think racism is OK for certain groups and not for others? Because your determinedly starry-eyed view of Hamas seems to indicate that.

860 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:21:25pm

re: #851 SanFranciscoZionist

Who, exactly, is cheering on the extreme right here?

Well since HAMAS is a group of religious fundamentalist terrorist far right tribal nationalists, I suspect that would be Hieronymus Bosch.

861 Gus  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:21:46pm

re: #843 Charles

Wow, Breitbart's going nuts on Twitter.

He's either drunk or hungover again. I haven't seen a thread on Breitbart for a while now. He looks stoned in that background image of his.

862 MandyManners  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:21:52pm

Gotta' git for now.

863 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:21:58pm

re: #851 SanFranciscoZionist

He is, by virtue of support for/defense of a hard-right, fanatically fundamentalist, Islamist terrorist group.

864 aurelius  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:22:06pm

Hmmm.. our friends at Kos don't seem to support this Israeli action. 3 of the top rec'd diaries are all saying things like

"Israel massacres unarmed peace activists"

Very confusing.

Still, at least they rip into wingnuts for supporting Israel. That at least we can agree on.

865 windsword  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:22:21pm

There are two essential facts to the Israel debate.

1.Hamas are terrorists.
2. Israel is not.

Anything else is irrelevant.

866 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:22:24pm

re: #854 Nimed

I am REALLY sorry.
It was a slip, I am not a troll...

867 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:22:57pm

re: #864 aurelius

Hmmm.. our friends at Kos don't seem to support this Israeli action. 3 of the top rec'd diaries are all saying things like

"Israel massacres unarmed peace activists"

Very confusing.

Still, at least they rip into wingnuts for supporting Israel. That at least we can agree on.

who's we?

868 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:23:43pm

re: #864 aurelius
Huh?

869 wrenchwench  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:24:34pm

re: #841 WindUpBird

people can read the site without registering ;-)

Certainly. I did. But I never referred to my pre-registration days as "the old days". That sets off my troll-dar.

870 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:24:45pm

re: #864 aurelius

Does this mean that if I support Israel, I am a wingnut in your eyes?

871 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:25:07pm

re: #848 researchok

9 flotilla protesters dead, 4 Israeli soldiers killed. So much for disproportionate response.

The Israelis might be less restrained in the future- a good idea, IMO.

Wait, Israelis are dead? WTF?

872 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:25:28pm

re: #867 albusteve

who's we?

him & that Hieronymus fellow I suppose...

873 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:26:21pm

re: #867 albusteve

who's we?

I suspect our friend Hieronymus Bosch is feverishly seeking out more 'talking points'.

874 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:26:22pm

re: #843 Charles

Wow, Breitbart's going nuts on Twitter.

So, I looked at your twitter and looked at his twitter.

And you haven't sent anything to him (or said anything about him) but he's just randomly posting these weird things.

Seems a bit angry and unbalanced, IMO.

875 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:26:36pm

re: #871 SanFranciscoZionist

Wait, Israelis are dead? WTF?

I am having trouble finding that on the googles

876 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:26:40pm

re: #869 wrenchwench

Certainly. I did. But I never referred to my pre-registration days as "the old days". That sets off my troll-dar.

the true colors line sounded familiar too...

877 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:27:00pm

re: #873 researchok

I suspect our friend Hieronymus Bosch is feverishly seeking out more 'talking points'.

couple of drooling bigots if you ask me

878 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:27:10pm

re: #874 reine.de.tout

So, I looked at your twitter and looked at his twitter.

And you haven't sent anything to him (or said anything about him) but he's just randomly posting these weird things.

Seems a bit angry and unbalanced, IMO.

The technical term is 'whackjob'.

879 Nimed  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:27:12pm

re: #866 american_peanuts

I am REALLY sorry.
It was a slip, I am not a troll...

You misunderstood me, my good man. Bosch is the troll.

880 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:27:12pm

re: #860 Thanos

Well since HAMAS is a group of religious fundamentalist terrorist far right tribal nationalists, I suspect that would be Hieronymus Bosch.

"My aunt was a squash," said Hieronymous Bosch.

881 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:27:48pm

re: #848 researchok

9 flotilla protesters dead, 4 Israeli soldiers killed. So much for disproportionate response.

The Israelis might be less restrained in the future- a good idea, IMO.

Where's the link for this?

882 webevintage  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:27:49pm

re: #874 reine.de.tout

So, I looked at your twitter and looked at his twitter.

And you haven't sent anything to him (or said anything about him) but he's just randomly posting these weird things.

Seems a bit angry and unbalanced, IMO.

Breitbart is shrill....

883 wrenchwench  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:27:57pm

re: #874 reine.de.tout

So, I looked at your twitter and looked at his twitter.

And you haven't sent anything to him (or said anything about him) but he's just randomly posting these weird things.

Seems a bit angry and unbalanced, IMO.

I think he's hurt:

@Lizardoid what is an irrefutable specific example of what would cause you to turn on me, a former comrade in digital arms? very curious.

Kinda creepy...

884 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:28:09pm

re: #875 WindUpBird
I just had CNN on and there wasn't anything about any Israelis being killed.

885 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:28:45pm

re: #874 reine.de.tout

So, I looked at your twitter and looked at his twitter.

And you haven't sent anything to him (or said anything about him) but he's just randomly posting these weird things.

Seems a bit angry and unbalanced, IMO.

he is...and he medicates himself with alcohol!...aha!
DRINK!

886 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:28:54pm

re: #884 pingjockey

I just had CNN on and there wasn't anything about any Israelis being killed.

yeah, I got nothing, I'm just curious who's saying it

887 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:28:59pm

re: #858 brookly red

what ever happened to the shot across the bow?

Looks bad on TV

888 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:29:02pm

re: #878 researchok

The technical term is 'whackjob'.

ah.
Thank you!
LOL.

889 Nimed  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:29:15pm

re: #848 researchok

4 Israeli soldiers killed.

Are you sure? Only two were in critical condition.

890 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:29:25pm

re: #879 Nimed

I assumed Israel's usual position...
I didn't check the facts and I immediately apologized...
Now I get it, now worries.

Still - what's this talk about DEAD SOLDIERS ?
Can anyone show source ?

891 jaunte  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:29:31pm

re: #883 wrenchwench

a former comrade in digital arms


(snort)

892 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:29:55pm

re: #883 wrenchwench

Kinda creepy...

The "kinda" being an understatement . . .

893 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:29:57pm

re: #887 The Shadow Do

Looks bad on TV

baaah! It's a time honored tradition!

894 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:30:02pm

re: #886 WindUpBird
That makes 2 of us.
Oh, good movie on AMC, "the Enemy Below".

895 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:30:10pm

re: #883 wrenchwench

Jilted Lover Syndrome. It is truly creepy and psychotic the amount and quality of emotions some freaks project onto our host.

896 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:30:11pm

re: #891 jaunte

(snort)

Charles!....come back!

897 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:30:52pm

re: #889 Nimed

Are you sure? Only two were in critical condition.

Just saw it on both FOX and CNN.

Hopefully, they are in error.

898 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:30:56pm

re: #895 Slumbering Behemoth

Jilted Lover Syndrome. It is truly creepy and psychotic the amount and quality of emotions some freaks project onto our host.

and make a ton of money doing it

899 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:31:01pm

re: #883 wrenchwench

it's like, maybe he just totally DOES NOT GET IT

900 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:31:07pm

I never realized I was "antiCreativeDesign." In fact, I'm very much in favor of creative design.

901 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:31:10pm

re: #896 albusteve

Charles!...come back!

*slow-motion film of two people running toward each other on the beach . . . *

902 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:31:54pm

re: #880 SanFranciscoZionist

"My aunt was a squash," said Hieronymous Bosch.

That's from a delightful children's book about Bosch--really--lovely illustrations. The title is "Pish posh," said Hieronymous Bosch. Of course, one of the major challenges faced in doing a children's book that rhymes, about Bosch, is that you have to keep coming up with things that rhyme and scan with 'Hieronymous Bosch'.

903 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:31:54pm

re: #901 reine.de.tout

*slow-motion film of two people running toward each other on the beach . . . *

gawd....barf me

904 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:31:57pm

re: #898 albusteve

Only in America.
/

905 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:32:15pm

re: #901 reine.de.tout

*slow-motion film of two people running toward each other on the beach . . . *

uggh an other pharma commercial!

906 aurelius  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:32:16pm

Reading the threads at KOS-- main point seems to be that this was in international waters. obviously illegal action by Israel.

yes the folks on the ship tried to repel the invaders.. well wouldn't you? I know I would.

907 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:32:20pm

re: #864 aurelius

Hmmm.. our friends at Kos don't seem to support this Israeli action. 3 of the top rec'd diaries are all saying things like

"Israel massacres unarmed peace activists"

Very confusing.

Still, at least they rip into wingnuts for supporting Israel. That at least we can agree on.

No, we don't. Piss off.

908 wrenchwench  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:32:30pm

re: #901 reine.de.tout

*slow-motion film of two people running toward each other on the beach . . . *

*camera angle rotates. Huge chasm appears in between.*

909 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:32:32pm

re: #901 reine.de.tout

*slow-motion film of two people running toward each other on the beach . . . *

To the Chariots of Fire soundtrack :D

910 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:33:42pm

re: #905 brookly red

uggh an other pharma commercial!

No, no - that's sitting inbathtubs on the beach!
How the manage to fill them up with water with no plumbing out there is sorta, well, strange.

And why would you want to sit in a bathtub on the beach?

911 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:33:46pm

re: #906 aurelius

The facts are not on your side.

912 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:33:47pm

re: #906 aurelius

Reading the threads at KOS-- main point seems to be that this was in international waters. obviously illegal action by Israel.

yes the folks on the ship tried to repel the invaders.. well wouldn't you? I know I would.

Get real. They had declared their intention to run a naval blockade. They had also declared themselves to be non-violent peace activists. You make it sound as though they were peacefully sailing along when the Israeli Navy dropped out of the sky onto them.

913 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:33:48pm

Fuck! How many sockpuppets does Galloway have here?

914 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:33:52pm

re: #909 WindUpBird

To the Chariots of Fire soundtrack :D

Brokeback Breitbart

915 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:34:09pm

re: #906 aurelius

Reading the threads at KOS-- main point seems to be that this was in international waters. obviously illegal action by Israel.

yes the folks on the ship tried to repel the invaders.. well wouldn't you? I know I would.

I guess they would have preferred letting them get into territorial waters & then just sinking them?

916 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:34:11pm

re: #893 brookly red

baaah! It's a time honored tradition!

"Israeli warships firing heavy guns on defenseless peace flotilla on mercy mission, video at 10"

917 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:34:33pm

re: #906 aurelius
You are so late. We've had at least 2 people post links to a 1994 treaty about blockades and int'l waters. It was and is legal. How do you think the USCG can board suspected drug smugglers in int'l waters?

918 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:34:35pm

re: #908 wrenchwench

*camera angle rotates. Huge chasm appears in between.*

haha.

919 aurelius  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:34:55pm

what's wrong with boarding them in territorial waters?

just asking.

920 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:34:58pm

OT, but little relevant.
Lets take a second to remember today is Memorial Day.

As a former Israeli soldier who's been to battle and saw war, I thank our soldiers who sacrifice their time and life to serve our great country and help police the world.

I would like to honor and cherish the memory of our fallen friends.
May their soles be forever tangled with our living soles.
ת.נ.צ.ב.ה

921 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:35:16pm

re: #919 aurelius

what's wrong with boarding them in territorial waters?

just asking.

need a warrant

922 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:35:19pm

re: #910 reine.de.tout

No, no - that's sitting inbathtubs on the beach!
How the manage to fill them up with water with no plumbing out there is sorta, well, strange.

And why would you want to sit in a bathtub on the beach?

some people never got over Jaws...

923 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:35:30pm

re: #913 Slumbering Behemoth

Fuck! How many sockpuppets does Galloway have here?

They have a secret meeting place.

924 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:35:38pm

re: #913 Slumbering Behemoth
It would appear George has a veritable plethora of sockies!

925 Nimed  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:35:40pm

re: #897 researchok

Just saw it on both FOX and CNN.

Hopefully, they are in error.

Hopefully it's an error. Can't find it in any news site or google search.

926 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:36:03pm

re: #925 Nimed

Hopefully it's an error. Can't find it in any news site or google search.

I saw it on the scroll

927 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:36:31pm

re: #906 aurelius

Reading the threads at KOS-- main point seems to be that this was in international waters. obviously illegal action by Israel.

yes the folks on the ship tried to repel the invaders.. well wouldn't you? I know I would.

Not illegal. Read the thread, KOSplant.

928 What, me worry?  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:36:39pm

re: #906 aurelius

Reading the threads at KOS-- main point seems to be that this was in international waters. obviously illegal action by Israel.

yes the folks on the ship tried to repel the invaders.. well wouldn't you? I know I would.

Hmmm... I was going to chime in, but you know, there is A LOT of troll meat here. Come in to this forum to make these statements on Israel? "Obvious illegal action on Israel." Really? By their own army in their own country.

Whose sock are you? Mr. Class of 2005 with 28 posts.

929 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:36:41pm

re: #925 Nimed

Hopefully it's an error. Can't find it in any news site or google search.

consider the source...wait one

930 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:36:42pm

re: #919 aurelius
Gaza has NO territorial waters, Egypt yes.

931 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:36:56pm

re: #916 The Shadow Do

"Israeli warships firing heavy guns on defenseless peace flotilla on mercy mission, video at 10"

oh please the protest signs were printed 2 weeks ago...

932 aurelius  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:37:08pm

re: #921 albusteve

interesting point...

well let's all go over to the Kos threads and set them straight....

I'm sure they'll listen to reason.

933 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:37:16pm

re: #926 researchok

I saw it on the scroll

Yeah, I think it was an error, I've seen WEEEEIRD stuff show up on the scroll on CNN back when I'd just leave it on at work. The best was when it was like noonish, and it was just a line of ampersands

934 wrenchwench  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:37:17pm

re: #920 american_peanuts

OK, now you need a little help with the spelling. That would be "souls". Unless you meant the bottoms of the feet.

935 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:37:59pm

re: #921 albusteve

NO YOU DON'T NEED A WARRANT. REPEATING LIES DOESN'T MAKE THEM TRUE.
I know you're not going to let facts confuse you, but here it is again:
[Link: www.mfa.gov.il...]

936 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:38:01pm

re: #923 solomonpanting

They have a secret meeting place.

Excuse me?!? Galloway has never been invited to any of my barbecues. How dare you insinuate such a thing?!?
/

937 solomonpanting  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:38:14pm

re: #931 brookly red

oh please the protest signs were printed 2 weeks ago...

And already had the names of the dead printed on them.

938 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:38:23pm

re: #932 aurelius

interesting point...

well let's all go over to the Kos threads and set them straight...

I'm sure they'll listen to reason.

I could care less about Kos....why would anybody give a fuck?

939 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:38:27pm

re: #919 aurelius

what's wrong with boarding them in territorial waters?

just asking.

Hamas vowed to send out their own little greeting flotilla-ette. Just compounding the problem to wait any longer. And no legal reason either obviously.

940 researchok  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:38:51pm

re: #933 WindUpBird

Yeah, I think it was an error, I've seen WEEEIRD stuff show up on the scroll on CNN back when I'd just leave it on at work. The best was when it was like noonish, and it was just a line of ampersands

I so hope you are right.

941 captdiggs  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:39:00pm

re: #10 philosophus invidius

Sadly, this video will make zero difference in the degree of international condemnation.

I seriously doubt that even if the Israelis show machine guns firing on them that it will make any difference in the PR beating Israel is going to take.
Because Israel is always judged guilty despite the evidence.

942 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:39:26pm

re: #935 american_peanuts

Easy brother, I am sure Steve was just being sarcastic.

943 brookly red  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:39:27pm

re: #935 american_peanuts

NO YOU DON'T NEED A WARRANT. REPEATING LIES DOESN'T MAKE THEM TRUE.
I know you're not going to let facts confuse you, but here it is again:
[Link: www.mfa.gov.il...]

/we don't need no stinkin badges!

944 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:39:38pm

re: #931 brookly red

oh please the protest signs were printed 2 weeks ago...

I know. It was my weak attempt at what would have certainly been the gist of the headlines.

945 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:39:39pm

re: #935 american_peanuts

NO YOU DON'T NEED A WARRANT. REPEATING LIES DOESN'T MAKE THEM TRUE.
I know you're not going to let facts confuse you, but here it is again:
[Link: www.mfa.gov.il...]

I'd open the link but you are yelling like an asshole...moving on

946 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:40:05pm

re: #934 wrenchwench

My bad. I am having a very emotional day.

As a former Israeli soldier who's been to battle and saw war, I thank our soldiers who sacrifice their time and life to serve our great country and help police the world.

I would like to honor and cherish the memory of our fallen friends.
May their souls be forever tangled with our living souls.
ת.נ.צ.ב.ה

947 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:40:08pm

re: #932 aurelius

interesting point...

well let's all go over to the Kos threads and set them straight...

I'm sure they'll listen to reason.

Why would they break cadence today over this? Asshat.

948 Nimed  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:40:13pm

re: #909 WindUpBird

To the Chariots of Fire soundtrack :D

"I will always be here for you, Steve."

949 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:41:03pm

re: #492 SanFranciscoZionist

I didn't know that daggers and slingshots were allowed on cruise ships.

950 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:41:21pm

Gaza aid ship protesters try to storm BBC Manchester

Protesters demonstrating against the Israeli attack on a Gaza-bound aid ship have attempted to storm the BBC in Manchester.

More than 800 people marched through the city centre and down Oxford Road, where the crowd surged the BBC's entrance, smashing its front doors.

One man climbed to the top of the building to plant a Palestinian flag and there were at least three arrests.

Protesters said they were also angry about the BBC's coverage of Israel.

951 Nimed  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:41:59pm

re: #933 WindUpBird

Yeah, I think it was an error, I've seen WEEEIRD stuff show up on the scroll on CNN back when I'd just leave it on at work. The best was when it was like noonish, and it was just a line of ampersands

It's not CNN. It's you.

952 shiplord kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:42:25pm

re: #950 Killgore Trout

Gaza aid ship protesters try to storm BBC Manchester

The Beeb has been much more even-handed in its coverage of Gaza in recent months.

953 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:42:36pm

re: #945 albusteve

It doesn't matter if you open it or not. I guess the facts will not make a difference to you anyway.
And the yelling is because it's been posted twice, yet still they spew lies as if facts.
So YES I SHOUT, because I can't get through some thick skulls and it is really, really frustrating.

954 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:43:13pm

re: #950 Killgore Trout
I thought the Beeb was slanted away from Israel in its coverage?

955 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:43:26pm

Gang taking a much needed break now. Somewhere, there is a Margarita calling my name ...

956 Nimed  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:43:27pm

re: #953 american_peanuts

See 936.

957 wrenchwench  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:43:44pm

re: #946 american_peanuts

{american_peanuts}

Take a deep breath. Relax a little.

Your revised post is worth repeating on the new thread.

958 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:44:03pm

re: #925 Nimed

Hopefully it's an error. Can't find it in any news site or google search.

In the stories Fox and CNN have up, they are still saying 7 wounded IDF, one seriously.


Both sites are also using photos provided by the Turkish aid group IHH.
Nowhere on those sites do I see the videos Charles has posted above, which are quite available and accessible for anyone wanting to find them. In fact, CNN has apparently seen the video, but says in its story:

The IDF released a video shot from above that it said showed soldiers being attacked, though the distance from which it was shot precluded immediate confirmation.

However, they seem to be accepting photos from the IHH without question, since one of the IHH's photos is first up when you click on their story.

This should put to rest anyone's beliefs that coverage of Israeli relations with other groups is balanced in some way.

959 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:44:04pm

re: #953 american_peanuts

It doesn't matter if you open it or not. I guess the facts will not make a difference to you anyway.
And the yelling is because it's been posted twice, yet still they spew lies as if facts.
So YES I SHOUT, because I can't get through some thick skulls and it is really, really frustrating.

Peanuts, go easy, man. Steve is on our side.

960 pingjockey  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:44:20pm

BBIAW

961 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:45:50pm

re: #940 researchok

I so hope you are right.

I am seeing absolutely nothing on the Israeli press sites about Israeli deaths, so I am going to assume it was an error.

962 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:46:12pm

re: #935 american_peanuts

NO YOU DON'T NEED A WARRANT. REPEATING LIES DOESN'T MAKE THEM TRUE.
I know you're not going to let facts confuse you, but here it is again:
[Link: www.mfa.gov.il...]

Steve was being sarcastic.

963 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:46:25pm

re: #957 wrenchwench

re: #956 Nimed

Thank you guys, you are correct. I'm signing off, I'll just post it in that thread too.I do take this a little to the heart, Warm blooded middle eastern.

964 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:46:31pm

re: #950 Killgore Trout

Gaza aid ship protesters try to storm BBC Manchester

Distinctly ME looking crowd. I thought the Brits were more in to gardening and such.

965 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:47:31pm

It's not clear to me what I can say on this topic that has not been said before in this thread. But I want to say how glad I am to see so many people here who understand the truth of these matters.

Just to summarize:

1. Hamas is a genocidal terrorist organization that controls a small nation, routinely attacks innocent civilians, takes hostages and is currently hoding a hostage. They are very clear that they are dedicated not just to the destruction of Israel, but to the murder of all Jews everywhere.

2. Between the petro-chemical leverage of the Muslim world and the far left's vision of attacking America by attacking Israel, there is no way that Israel ever gets a fair shake in the international media.

3. As far as the ohh so reasonable, academic left sees things, some how the Palestinians are the victims, even though they launch attack after attack and scuttle peace attempt after peace attempt. This is the biggest problem with Obama in my mind. He makes the classic mistake of assuming that people are more reasonable than they are.

4. Between Russian and Arab opportunism, if Obama wants to be able to put pressure on Iran, he feels forced to distance himself from Israel.

5. The people who were supporting these terrorists on these ships are either terrorists themselves or terrorist sympathizers. It seems that hating Jews is one thing that Greeks and Turks can agree with.

6. If there were some nation that our navy were blockading because they kept trying to murder our citizens, our navy would have started with a shot across the bough, and likely have sank the ships. Of course it would not come that, because if some nation had killed thousands of Americans, was holding Americans hostage, was dedicating to killing all Americans and routinely fired rockets at us, we would have invaded and crushed that nation, long before questions of blockading supplies came up in a similar context.

7. Had any other navy simply just sank those vessels under similar circumstances, it would have been a kosher shoot. However, Israel is never given a fair shake, and even though it risks ts own people inordinately to hold to a higher standard, no standard is ever high enough. This simply translates into the fact that the world really only loves Jews as dead victims.
Ironically, that last statement is the primary reason for Zionism and it remains as true today as it did in the days of the Dreyfus affair.

966 american_peanuts  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:47:35pm

re: #959 Gang of One

re: #962 reine.de.tout

Sorry ... again, my Israeli personality pops out whenever I have political debates. Imagine this exchange in my workplace ...
My Apology.

967 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:47:42pm

Over at the Muqata, Jameel's got pictures of some of the weapons found on the boat.

968 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:47:43pm

re: #964 The Shadow Do

Distinctly ME looking crowd. I thought the Brits were more in to gardening and such.

no profiling!
disgruntled yoots

969 albusteve  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:48:15pm

re: #966 american_peanuts

re: #962 reine.de.tout

Sorry ... again, my Israeli personality pops out whenever I have political debates. Imagine this exchange in my workplace ...
My Apology.

no big deal

970 Achilles Tang  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:48:27pm

re: #926 researchok

I saw it on the scroll

There's something about it on Debka, but you can't take that at face value first.

971 Gang of One  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:49:07pm

re: #966 american_peanuts

re: #962 reine.de.tout

Sorry ... again, my Israeli personality pops out whenever I have political debates. Imagine this exchange in my workplace ...
My Apology.

Accepted, chaver. And thank you for your time in uniform.

972 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:49:18pm

re: #966 american_peanuts

re: #962 reine.de.tout

Sorry ... again, my Israeli personality pops out whenever I have political debates. Imagine this exchange in my workplace ...
My Apology.

:-)

Many of us share your frustration, believe me.

973 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:49:50pm

re: #966 american_peanuts

re: #962 reine.de.tout

Sorry ... again, my Israeli personality pops out whenever I have political debates. Imagine this exchange in my workplace ...
My Apology.

Americans use indoor voices. I know, going back and forth between the two styles can cause whiplash.

Steve is just being irritating though, he's entirely free of any desire to criticize Israel.

974 Achilles Tang  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:49:59pm

re: #970 Naso Tang

There's something about it on Debka, but you can't take that at face value first.

Correction. I was sure I saw that there, but no longer.

975 The Shadow Do  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:50:14pm

re: #968 albusteve

no profiling!
disgruntled yoots

My bad. Disgruntled yoots removed from their roots (gardening reference again)

976 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:50:33pm

re: #968 albusteve

no profiling!
disgruntled Asian yoots

FTFY

977 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:50:39pm

re: #848 researchok

9 flotilla protesters dead, 4 Israeli soldiers killed. So much for disproportionate response.

The Israelis might be less restrained in the future- a good idea, IMO.

Actually, they should now simply state as a policy that because so many soldiers were killed, the future policy will be to simply sink any ship that refuses warnings and to come about. They really only need to sink one of them once to get that message out clearly.

978 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:50:50pm

re: #973 SanFranciscoZionist

Americans use indoor voices (except Cordell). I know, going back and forth between the two styles can cause whiplash.

Steve is just being irritating though, he's entirely free of any desire to criticize Israel.

FTFY

979 jvic  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:55:22pm

re: #812 MandyManners

re: #840 Thanos

Here is the transcript of that State Department briefing at which Pakistan and Facebook were discussed.

980 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, May 31, 2010 1:57:43pm

Well the true moonbats are going to have a great time with this one, evil facist Israel attacking and killing the peace loving humanatarian Gaza supporters who wouldn't hurt a fly... /

The condemnations are flying already without even waiting for any evidence.

All I know is that I would have started shooting too if it was that or get beaten to death, it is quite apparent from those videos that those were the only two options available. :(

981 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:01:20pm

re: #965 LudwigVanQuixote

Of course it would not come that, because if some nation had killed thousands of Americans, was holding Americans hostage, was dedicating to killing all Americans and routinely fired rockets at us, we would have invaded and crushed that nation, long before questions of blockading supplies came up in a similar context.

Well said my friend. If the Mexican army decided one fine morning to start lobbing rockets into El Paso, there wouldn't be one brick standing on another or two boards left nailed together in Ciudad Juarez by sundown. As Benjamin Netanyahu pointed out, we have pursued the 9-11 terrorists to the ends of the Earth, literally to the highest mountains, and we were right to do so.
How dare the so-called global media, and a good part of ours,insist that Israel submit not just to provocation but to daily bombardment and terror attacks?

982 abolitionist  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:02:10pm

Australians embroiled in Israel commando attack

Up to 19 people are dead and dozens more injured

983 Achilles Tang  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:02:22pm

Egyptian forces in fierce battles with Sinai Bedouin/Hamas jihadist smugglers

I suppose this is not news elsewhere since it doesn't involve the usual useful idiots from the West; and they weren't using paint balls.//

984 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:03:49pm

re: #979 jvic

re: #840 Thanos

Here is the transcript of that State Department briefing at which Pakistan and Facebook were discussed.

This part might deserve to be posted here, for those who won't go to that transcript:

QUESTION: Do you have any comment on Pakistan’s blockage of – Pakistan’s – to YouTube and other web – internet sites?

MR. CROWLEY: I do. Obviously, this is a difficult and challenging issue. Many of the images that appear today on Facebook were deeply offensive to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. We are deeply concerned about any deliberate attempt to offend Muslims or members of any other religious groups. We do not condone offensive speech that can incite violence or hatred.

The page at issue was posted anonymously at the website of a private company. It is now a legal matter between Facebook and the Government of Pakistan. But that said, we also believe that the best answer to offensive speech is dialogue and debate, and in fact, we see signs that that is exactly what is occurring in Pakistan. Governments have a responsibility to protect freedom of expression and the free flow of information.

The best antidote to intolerance is not banning or punishing offensive speech, but rather a combination of robust legal protections against discrimination and hate crimes, and proactive government outreach to minority religious groups and the vigorous defense of both freedom of religion and expression. Those last words came from the Secretary’s internet freedom speech last year.

So I think that this is a difficult issue. Pakistan is wrestling to this issue. We respect any actions that need to be taken under Pakistani law to protect their citizens from offensive speech. At the same time, Pakistan has to make sure that in taking any particular action, that you’re not restricting speech to the millions and millions of people who are connected to the internet and have a universal right to the free flow of information.

QUESTION: But who’s to say that Pakistan isn’t simply playing to the more conservative religious factions in order to maintain political viability?

MR. CROWLEY: Well, no, as I said, we – there are actions that Pakistan can take under Pakistani law. We respect those. But there needs to be a balance to make sure that in rightly restricting offensive speech, or even hate speech, that Pakistan continues to protect and promote the free flow of information.

QUESTION: But blocking an – you know, this website or that website doesn’t seem to go toward promoting free flow of information. I mean, I have colleagues whom I cannot reach via Facebook right now because of this.

MR. CROWLEY: Right. And what we’re saying is that Pakistan, as it works through these issues, has to try to find that difficult balance. But we certainly fully understand how material that were posted on this particular page were offensive to Pakistanis and members of other Muslim majority communities around the world. But at the same time, we do in fact support the universal principle of freedom of expression, free flow of information, and we will continue to promote internet freedom as the Secretary outlined in her speech.

985 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:04:02pm

re: #965 LudwigVanQuixote

I would upding you Ludwig, well said -- however I don't see Gaza as a nation. Until the Palestinians demonstrate real ability to govern they aren't going to become a nation either.

986 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:05:11pm

re: #981 Shiplord Kirel

Well said. It's mind-boggling to think that the people decrying Israel's actions over this have no problem with a Gaza that's under the control of a hostile regime.

987 Red Pencil  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:05:14pm

re: #616 Hieronymus Bosch

I first read about it here.

Even if you consider the source to be biased against Israel and the apartheid analogy cliched, the facts themselves clearly check out.

"Consider the source" - The National from Abu Dhabi-- to be biased against Israel?
Ya THINK?

And the "apartheid analogy", or smear to be more precise, is not cliched, it is simply wrong.

988 webevintage  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:06:56pm

Hmmmm, just heard NPR refer to the activists as "pro-Palestinian activists" and not "peace activists".

989 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:07:30pm

re: #984 reine.de.tout

Thanks for posting that whole thing, I appreciate it. I had to care for some dogs who got loose or I would have gotten there myself. It's very obvious to me now that he's not "Strongly supporting" Pakistan blocking facebook at all.

990 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:07:56pm

re: #989 Thanos

Thanks for posting that whole thing, I appreciate it. I had to care for some dogs who got loose or I would have gotten there myself. It's very obvious to me now that he's not "Strongly supporting" Pakistan blocking facebook at all.

Exactly.

991 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:08:53pm

re: #842 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Baby, Can You Dig Your Man...

Just turned over to "The Stand" (yes the book is better) but, in the movies defense? This song just played...

992 Jaerik  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:09:47pm

I'm very pro-Israel, but there's a few developments in the past few years that bug me.

One is, after the last decade of politics here in the US, I am immediately suspicious of the "whatever necessary" approach to national security.

Two, I am deeply troubled by the "with us or against us," black and white separation that has crept into debates surrounding Israeli politics. I am also troubled by the fact that it seems no longer possible to discuss Israel the country, and its policies, without both sides falling back to religious arguments. As an atheist, I don't give any special consideration to a "Jewish state," nor do I give a crap about Islamic ones, above or beyond any other country.

I have tremendous sympathy for Israel's plight. It's really deeply unfair. The other side is not acting in good will. But as we have learned here in the US, unilateral hard-line stances on national security don't play well internationally. True or false, fair or not, they are badly losing the PR battle over the last several years. And worse, the current government doesn't seem to care, choosing instead to double-down on the hard-line approach.

I could see a number of other ways this could have gone down. The flotilla was from Turkey. You were allies with Turkey. (Although not anymore, apparently.) Recruit them and help organize the flotilla, to ensure there are no weapons or contraband, then let them in as a magnanimous gesture of goodwill. Pre-arrange an agreement to search them at sea if you have to. Hell, beseech the UN to help you set up land checkpoints for aid incoming from surrounding countries -- you know they'd oblige.

Instead, they've chosen the hard-line approach to enforce a blockade, played right into their hands, and shot a bunch of people under a white flag. The people you need to impress are not going to buy the "self-defense" argument when you were the ones boarding their ships, even if they shot first. Whatever PR mess you were envisioning if the flotilla was allowed to land, you've just made it a hundred times worse. And as (I like to think) the US learned with Guantanamo and similar choices over the past decade, sometimes the PR fallout is worse than the actual situation you were trying to stop.

993 Crimsonfisted  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:10:31pm

Flotilla weaponry

994 lawhawk  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:10:48pm

Greets and saluts on this fine Memorial Day here in the US. While many of us are busy grilling and bbqing, Israel is again dealing with the fallout from operations to protect Israel from its enemies in Gaza and their fellow travelers and useful idiots.

Israel goes after those who seek to break Israel's embargo on Gaza. These "peace" activists are anything but peaceful, and used deadly force to stop Israeli soldiers from breaking up their flotilla.

And thankfully Israel caught it on tape.

Of course, that's not stopping folks from castigating and attacking Israel from engaging in its defense. Even the NYT gets in on this by attempting to float some perverted moral equivalency between what Israel did and the Exodus incident.

The Exodus was carrying Holocaust survivors from Europe and the British turned it away from Mandate Palestine in 1947. Somehow that situation is akin to this one - where Israel is attempting to block Hamas from bringing in reinforcements and the materials it needs to fight its ongoing war against Israel. Gotcha.

995 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:12:34pm

re: #985 Thanos

I would upding you Ludwig, well said -- however I don't see Gaza as a nation. Until the Palestinians demonstrate real ability to govern they aren't going to become a nation either.

I accept your point well. However, since Israel has pulled out of Gaza and they do have their own terrorist government, I am not certain what else to call them.

997 lawhawk  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:16:57pm

re: #995 LudwigVanQuixote

Failed state is probably the closest descriptor because they don't have a functional government, but Hamas was duly elected by Gazans to the majority of the Palestinian Authority. Hamas also hides behind the fact that they haven't exactly declared independence, but rather still fight as a liberating terror regime that seeks dominion over not only Gaza and the West Bank, but Israel proper (within the Green Line).

998 Racer X  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:17:48pm

re: #996 Crimsonfisted

Video showing leftists "peace activists" stabbing IDF soldiers. Note -- the IDF soldier was equipped with a paint gun.


[Video]

Holy fucking crap. You could almost here that fucker screaming "alahu akbar" as he tried to kill a Jew.

999 Randall Gross  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:18:16pm

re: #995 LudwigVanQuixote

I accept your point well. However, since Israel has pulled out of Gaza and they do have their own terrorist government, I am not certain what else to call them.

Me neither, but I can't bring myself to call them a nation -- to me they are in territory that hasn't achieved statehood. The governance such as it is, is split into factions.

1000 captdiggs  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:19:21pm

re: #980 ausador

Well the true moonbats are going to have a great time with this one

Yeah...you should see the ravings at Hufpo.
To sum them up: "Israel should be nuked"

1001 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:25:05pm

re: #992 Jaerik

I could see a number of other ways this could have gone down. The flotilla was from Turkey. You were allies with Turkey. (Although not anymore, apparently.) Recruit them and help organize the flotilla, to ensure there are no weapons or contraband, then let them in as a magnanimous gesture of goodwill. Pre-arrange an agreement to search them at sea if you have to. Hell, beseech the UN to help you set up land checkpoints for aid incoming from surrounding countries -- you know they'd oblige.

Except that it is not a blockade any longer then, if you let one group through then how can stop the next one without seeming two-faced? That is kind of the point of a blockade or an interdiction zone, you don't let anyone go through.

Israel told them long before this "flotilla" launched that they would not allow it to land directly at Gaza. They knew Israel would interdict them at sea, this was not obscure knowledge, everyone who pays any attention to Israel knew that.

They could have peaceably surrendered when boarded, knowing that they were outmatched and outgunned, but instead they chose to fight.

How is that Israels fault?

1002 Spare O'Lake  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:25:20pm

The Israeli blockade and the boarding op were 100% justified and necessary - no doubt about it.
However, I must admit that I am left wondering which IDF genius came up with the paintball rifles idea. He/she is probably some distant relation of the genius who came up with the US policy to sacrifice US soldiers in order to avoid damaging buildings.
C'mon now, sure we're the good guys, but let's not let that force us to take unnecessary casualties for crying out loud!

1003 Red Pencil  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:31:48pm

re: #806 Hieronymus Bosch

Sorry, but I really don't speak the same moral language as Meir Kahane or Avigdor Lieberman. Do you? Do you think racism is ok for certain groups but not others?

And doesn't Israeli television have, um, a few problems, too?

Wondering if true colors are starting to come out here again... what I'm seeing is just Palinesque and rabid, like the old days.

OK, you must've found that Israeli TV clip on a Google. And not bothered to read it. The Independent's criticism of the Israeli satire is that the anti-war message wasn't sharp enough or sufficiently critical of the Israeli government. Not that it was calling for death to Palestinians. Quite a contrast with the Palestinian kiddie shows.

1004 lawhawk  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:32:39pm

re: #1002 Spare O'Lake

The IDF was going to board with the intent not to kill those on board, but to stop them from running the blockade. They were going in with nonlethal weapons, and may have thought that the paintball rifles were sufficiently menacing looking to get the job done without having to resort to deadly weapons.

Well, after the first paintball hit, the utility of those paintball rifles is done - and the thugs on board weren't going to be deterred by anything other than deadly force.

1005 Jaerik  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:33:53pm

re: #1001 ausadorHow is that Israels fault?

It isn't. My point is, it doesn't matter. You can be in the right of it, and still lose the PR battle. And if you lose the support of your allies and the international community, have you really won?

The UN is pissed. The EU is pissed. Hell, even Tony Blair (Tony Friggin' Blair!) is pissed. The best reaction so far is from the US, who very carefully had no reaction. (Which I think is probably the best thing we can do.)

The point is, you can be pro-Israel and still be willing to admit they could have handled things better. As far as potential PR fallout over how they could have handled it, and how they did, this certainly seems the worst option.

And what frightens me more, is the links above to Muqata throwing moderate fellow Jews under the bus, calling them traitors, throwing around the "terrorist" word with abandon, questioning the Patriotism of anyone who doesn't 100% with the current government, etc. Isn't that the kind of knee-jerk "extremism meets extremism" crap this blog continually calls out the Right for recently? Hell, they're spraying "Leftist" around, and at a wider range of groups, more often than Glen Beck throws around "nazi."

1006 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:48:06pm

re: #1005 Jaerik

Your failing to acknowledge that this was strictly and solely designed as a test of Israels will to enforce the blockade. The entire thing from scratch was nothing but an attempt to get Israel to drop the blockade, end of story. If they had caved in and let it pass there would have been no more enforceable blockade.

Maybe during the Cuban missile crisis and blockade Kennedy should have allowed some ships through so that the US's P.R. would have been better?

I support Israel 100% on this, I also know that uninformed idiots will condemn her for it. When it is your very survival against P.R. points then they have to choose survival.

1007 PAUL_MACDONALD  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:50:53pm

These videos should go viral. Regardless of where you stand on this, and I stand with Israel, people have a hard time challenging video evidence.

I have some friends who slant left and have bought into the Hamas version of events. I'm hoping this helps a bit to turn the tide.

1008 Mocking Jay  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:52:35pm

re: #1007 PAUL_MACDONALD

These videos should go viral. Regardless of where you stand on this, and I stand with Israel, people have a hard time challenging video evidence.

I have some friends who slant left and have bought into the Hamas version of events. I'm hoping this helps a bit to turn the tide.

I've seen plenty of comments suggesting that the video was staged beforehand. Reminds me of moon-landing deniers.

1009 Hanoch  Mon, May 31, 2010 2:56:23pm

re: #992 Jaerik

All of your alternate proposals for handling this situation are built upon a false premise: that the "peace activists" were actually seeking to deliver humanitarian aid to the Arabs in Gaza. But that is not what they were attempting to do. They were trying to draw the Israelis into a conflict for propaganda purposes.

That is made obvious by the fact that the IDF presented these people with a peaceful alternative, i.e., dock in Ashdod where their cargo would be inspected, and they refused. Moreover, when the IDF boarded their ships, the "peace activists" could have peacefully submitted to inspections of their cargo. Instead, they resorted to brutal, unprovoked beatings of Israeli soldiers.

Finally, the notion that Israel can or should rely on non-Israelis for its security is a derogation of the first responsibility that every sovereign nation owes to its populace. And, as we have seen in southern Lebanon, it doesn't work very well.

1010 Jaerik  Mon, May 31, 2010 3:00:37pm

re: #1006 ausador

I support Israel 100% on this, I also know that uninformed idiots will condemn her for it. When it is your very survival against P.R. points then they have to choose survival.

Fair enough, and I respect your position. We actually don't disagree much on the facts of the situation.

But when you find yourself rating down other posters who are trying their hardest to be civil and fair, because you've distilled an insanely complex situation down into a black-and-white, "100%" or 0% argument, we've got a problem. If I'm not allowed to even lightly criticize the logistical and PR moves of a secular foreign government without being called a radical lefty or an apologist for terrorism, we've got a problem. (As some of the above links are doing.)

1011 maximilian80  Mon, May 31, 2010 3:30:32pm

re: #230 pingjockey

Expect a UN resolution condeming Israel for lawless or terrorist acts tomorrow.

That is what the UN does best--break a holiday
to condemn israel, and then back to the barbecue.
No beer for the infidels.

1012 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, May 31, 2010 3:34:40pm

re: #1010 Jaerik

There, I gave you an upding to make up for it. Now we are even. ;)

Your post that I downdigned (and I don't do that very often) was because of the apparent assumption that somehow Israel handled this wrong. There was no right way to handle this, the only point of this six shop flotilla was a "Damned if you do and Damned if you don't" conundrum. Let them go and the blockade in meaningless, stop them and you have violated their rights in international waters.

It would have been fairly simple if they hadn't attacked the Israelis...somehow I don't think that that was part of most of the peace activists onboard plans. I think they got suckered too and never would have done this if they knew people onboard would provoke an armed confrontation.

1014 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 4:19:58pm

re: #812 MandyManners

You know, there's a little more to that story than you quoted.

Commenting on Pakistan’s efforts to block the sites containing material offensive to the Muslim faith, Mr Crowley noted that this was a difficult issue for the Pakistani government.

“Pakistan is wrestling to this issue. We respect any actions that need to be taken under Pakistani law to protect their citizens from offensive speech,” said the US State Department official while rejecting a suggestion from a journalist to condemn Islamabad’s actions.

“At the same time, Pakistan has to make sure that in taking any particular action, that you’re not restricting speech to the millions and millions of people who are connected to the internet and have a universal right to the free flow of information,” he added.

Gee, it actually sounds like he's trying to be as reasonable as possible under the circumstances. Whaddaya know.

1015 godofbiscuits  Mon, May 31, 2010 4:20:19pm

This action had nothing to do with a blockade.

Blockades block. They don't board. The turn away or hold at bay.

And you need to make up your minds. Were they organized and ready to be the aggressors in a fight? Or do you count fighting off heavily armed Israel soldiers by using "metal poles and chairs" and "throwing the soldiers overboard" to be a first-attack posture or a defensive, make-shift one?

It's a sign of delusional mind--in this case, specifically group-think--to believe you're always right no matter what.

Israel was the initial aggressor in the region. The Jews were the ones who felt capital-E Entitled to serve up a Diaspora of their own to the indigenous peoples who used to live in what is now called Israel.

"We've suffered enough so we deserve it!" they said.

How petulant. The cries of a child-minded, churlish people armed to the teeth with the resources of a superpower.

What does that make you, O Israel?

Compress all the pain and suffering at your hands over your 62 years of existence into six years and I wonder which way Blind Justice's scales would tip.

The difference between depriving a person of an hour of his life and his life is only a matter of degree: you've done violence to him, stolen unrecoverable life energy from him.

And there's no end in sight for Israel's continued campaign of violence toward others.

The world will condemn what Israel has done, except perhaps the USA. Too many Israeli hands in too many pockets here.

1016 jayzee  Mon, May 31, 2010 4:21:31pm

For those who think that boarding vessels in international waters is "illegal"-what does the US Coast Guard do?


In addition, 14 USC 89 provides the authority for U.S. Coast Guard active duty commissioned, warrant and petty officers to enforce applicable U.S. law. It authorizes Coast Guard personnel to enforce federal law on waters subject to U.S. jurisdiction and in international waters, as well as on all vessels subject to U.S. jurisdiction (including U.S., foreign and stateless vessels).
1017 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 4:21:58pm

re: #1015 godofbiscuits

Get off my website.

1018 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Mon, May 31, 2010 4:28:10pm

re: #1017 Charles

Get off my website.

Thank you Charles.

1019 earth56  Mon, May 31, 2010 4:31:20pm

re: #1015 godofbiscuits

re: #1015 godofbiscuits

This action had nothing to do with a blockade.

Blockades block. They don't board. The turn away or hold at bay.

And you need to make up your minds. Were they organized and ready to be the aggressors in a fight? Or do you count fighting off heavily armed Israel soldiers by using "metal poles and chairs" and "throwing the soldiers overboard" to be a first-attack posture or a defensive, make-shift one?

It's a sign of delusional mind--in this case, specifically group-think--to believe you're always right no matter what.

Israel was the initial aggressor in the region. The Jews were the ones who felt capital-E Entitled to serve up a Diaspora of their own to the indigenous peoples who used to live in what is now called Israel.

"We've suffered enough so we deserve it!" they said.

How petulant. The cries of a child-minded, churlish people armed to the teeth with the resources of a superpower.

What does that make you, O Israel?

Compress all the pain and suffering at your hands over your 62 years of existence into six years and I wonder which way Blind Justice's scales would tip.

The difference between depriving a person of an hour of his life and his life is only a matter of degree: you've done violence to him, stolen unrecoverable life energy from him.

And there's no end in sight for Israel's continued campaign of violence toward others.

The world will condemn what Israel has done, except perhaps the USA. Too many Israeli hands in too many pockets here.


Did you get a fresh copy of the "Elders of Zion " bisquit head ?

1020 Bob Levin  Mon, May 31, 2010 4:38:26pm

re: #404 darthstar

Hedy Epstein decided not to accompany the flotilla and stayed back at Cyprus. I would hope that she made this decision by figuring out what was really going on.

1021 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Mon, May 31, 2010 4:44:04pm

Because this is so full of delusional and blatantly anti-semitic untruths, I feel the need to point out the truth of each of your assertions.

re: #1015 godofbiscuits

This action had nothing to do with a blockade.

A blockade is a naval action that uses force or the threat of force to prevent access to a place from the sea. Under what definition is this not a blockade?

Blockades block. They don't board. The turn away or hold at bay.

And do they do that by writing nasty letters to ships that try to run the blockade?

And you need to make up your minds. Were they organized and ready to be the aggressors in a fight? Or do you count fighting off heavily armed Israel soldiers by using "metal poles and chairs" and "throwing the soldiers overboard" to be a first-attack posture or a defensive, make-shift one?

Hamas announced that it would be doing battle on the high seas with the "Zionist forces" and the Israelis announced that they would be bordered days ago if they crossed the lines. It was clearly armed and premeditated. What it actually was, was a carefully premeditated publicity stunt that you ae spinning propaganda for.

It's a sign of delusional mind--in this case, specifically group-think--to believe you're always right no matter what.

That is correct. Why do you support the aggressive, dispicable and cowardly Hamsnicks who have thwarted every effort of peace, commit attack after attack and preach open genocide of Jews?

Israel was the initial aggressor in the region.

This is a complete lie. Israel was attacked by 5 Arab armies on the day of her birth.

The Jews were the ones who felt capital-E Entitled to serve up a Diaspora of their own to the indigenous peoples who used to live in what is now called Israel.

The fact that the place has Hebrew names to this day, is rather proof that the Jews are the indigenous people of that land. We also never put up a for sale sign.

"We've suffered enough so we deserve it!" they said.

Not at all. It is actually our homeland. It is ours. We deserve it as much as the Irish deserve Dublin.

How petulant. The cries of a child-minded, churlish people armed to the teeth with the resources of a superpower.

That would be projection on your part.

What does that make you, O Israel?

The rightful owners of our own land, that we defended after attack after attack?

Compress all the pain and suffering at your hands over your 62 years of existence into six years and I wonder which way Blind Justice's scales would tip.

If there were justice, assholes like you would not support terrorists.

The difference between depriving a person of an hour of his life and his life is only a matter of degree: you've done violence to him, stolen unrecoverable life energy from him.

Which is exactly what the Arabs want to do to us. Though, while the terrorists have never done anything for peace and have yet to create an industry other than mayhem, murder, kidnapping and decapitation pornography, Israel builds hospitals for the Arabs, provides them with university, and gives them sanctuary from violence against women and gays.

And there's no end in sight for Israel's continued campaign of violence toward others.

Actually it ends about 30 seconds after the Palistinians legitimately want peace. They could have had it at Oslo. They walked out.

The world will condemn what Israel has done, except perhaps the USA. Too many Israeli hands in too many pockets here.

The so called Israel lobby has approximately 1/20 the funding as the Saudi lobby. The book that was produced recently to castigate the Israel lobby and Cater's most recent book were paid for by the Saudis.

1022 wrenchwench  Mon, May 31, 2010 4:54:04pm

By the way, those "slingshots" on the flotilla are known as "wrist rockets" everywhere I've lived.

1023 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Mon, May 31, 2010 4:56:52pm

re: #1022 wrenchwench

By the way, those "slingshots" on the flotilla are known as "wrist rockets" everywhere I've lived.

They really are actually lethal if shot to the head.

1024 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 31, 2010 5:14:21pm

re: #1022 wrenchwench

By the way, those "slingshots" on the flotilla are known as "wrist rockets" everywhere I've lived.

Yep, they're not AK47s but they're not toys, either. They're real weapons.

1025 onepistoffyid  Mon, May 31, 2010 5:32:51pm

re: #1015 godofbiscuits

"The Jews were the ones who felt capital-E Entitled to serve up a Diaspora of their own to the indigenous peoples who used to live in what is now called Israel"

Jews are the indigenous people of what is now called Israel you fucking moron

1026 Iron-Confederate  Mon, May 31, 2010 5:36:10pm

Forgive me if someone had already mentioned this but, am I the only who is wondering how exactly did the dead thug activists die? Did they die at the hands of the IDF commandos trying to survive or were they sacrificial lambs for the attention whoring activists like Mohammed Al-Dura?

1027 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 31, 2010 5:45:36pm

re: #951 Nimed

It's not CNN. It's you.

Look, I don't think I like what yo& & & & & & & & & & & & & &

1028 Lidane  Mon, May 31, 2010 5:46:28pm

It's times like these I wish I had more than just a passing knowledge of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It would definitely help me put those videos in context.

1029 Timmeh  Mon, May 31, 2010 6:40:28pm

re: #1025 onepistoffyid

"The Jews were the ones who felt capital-E Entitled to serve up a Diaspora of their own to the indigenous peoples who used to live in what is now called Israel"

Jews are the indigenous people of what is now called Israel you fucking moron

"The" indigenous people or "an" indigenous people?

And only some of them are indigenous.

1030 Buck  Mon, May 31, 2010 7:08:20pm

re: #14 drcordell

Someone explain to me why sending commandos onto the deck of the ship in international waters was necessary?

Because the ships would not divert to a port so that the cargo could be inspected.

When a ship does not cooperate, it means that it is willing to risk violence.

The ship was going to the enemy, and could be filled with arms and soldiers. The only reason why anyone would call them humanitarians, and aid is because they are willing to take the word of people onboard.

The Israelis cannot.

1031 swamprat  Mon, May 31, 2010 7:46:57pm

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Maybe this is the wrong forum to even suggest this sort of thing, but shouldn't Israel's acts be viewed in the context of the fact that the attack against the aid ships occurred in context of enforcing an unspeakably brutal and blockade against Gaza (a sort of "collective punishment" against Gaza's civilians for voting Hamas into power)? Even if within a certain limited prism we could make a coherent argument that the IDF's attack of the aid boats was "justified," did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?

Actions have consequences; Voting for hamas meant betting on terrorism...That was a bad choice.


As for this assertion:

did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?


You are a moron. There is nothing I can do. Sorry.

1032 Flavia  Mon, May 31, 2010 8:37:22pm

re: #138 Conservative Moonbat

Oh screw this, I swore I'd never get involved in any Israel/Palestine debates on LGF when I registered. I'm going to stop now.

That's good, because anyone who uses the term "Palestine" in such a context isn't qualified to be in any discussion about the Middle East.

Also, anyone actually needs to be taught why Israel is in the right has only to check these links:

www.palestinefacts.org
[Link: www.conceptwizard.com...]
[Link: www.conceptwizard.com...]

1033 MittDoesNotCompute  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:34:03pm

re: #504 Hieronymus Bosch

Maybe this is the wrong forum to even suggest this sort of thing, but shouldn't Israel's acts be viewed in the context of the fact that the attack against the aid ships occurred in context of enforcing an unspeakably brutal and blockade against Gaza (a sort of "collective punishment" against Gaza's civilians for voting Hamas into power)? Even if within a certain limited prism we could make a coherent argument that the IDF's attack of the aid boats was "justified," did these acts not occur to enforce a larger brutal agenda of the Israeli extreme right-wing?

You and Darthstar can just go take a long walk off a short pier...

/ya'll are either naive, ignorant, or willing terrorist sympathizers...which is it?

1034 MittDoesNotCompute  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:36:57pm

re: #689 Bagua

It is amazing how the anti-Semites swallow every thinly disguised turd that gives them a chance to rail against Israel.

If those were US Coast Guard or Navy officers being beaten with iron bars, stabbed and thrown overboard would they be here calling them "peace activists" in "international waters?"

DING DING DING...we have a winnah!

1035 MittDoesNotCompute  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:40:56pm

re: #785 researchok

Excellent essay there!

1036 DeerMusic  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:41:04pm

From a Ha'aretz report:
At least two of the activists who were wounded on the ship were detained after refusing treatment at the Barzilai Hospital in Ashkelon.

Within the last hour, Israel radio (Kol Yisrael) reported that the two are in urgent need of surgery but they are refusing to be operating on in Israel. I say, transfer them to a hospital in Gaza!

1037 MittDoesNotCompute  Mon, May 31, 2010 9:46:32pm

re: #1036 DeerMusic

From a Ha'aretz report:
At least two of the activists who were wounded on the ship were detained after refusing treatment at the Barzilai Hospital in Ashkelon.

Within the last hour, Israel radio (Kol Yisrael) reported that the two are in urgent need of surgery but they are refusing to be operating on in Israel. I say, transfer them to a hospital in Gaza!

They really want their martyr cookies bad...I say, sedate the sons-of-bitches and take care of business trying to save their sorry asses!

1038 shai_au  Mon, May 31, 2010 11:15:27pm

I only just saw this. I must say, rappelling down into a crowd of angry people wielding steel pipes and such, doesn't seem like a very good plan. I suppose that was the only option they had, but still.

1039 Video Gamer  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 6:26:05am

I'm centrist on the issue, but I completely recognize Israel's right to defend against the 'peace activists'. This is really going to hurt Israel due to all the condemnation, but I side with Israel on this one.

What I'm more worried about is the amount of racism being made on both sides; "Death to the Jews" being chanted in Istanbul, and "Death to the Arabs" being chanted in Ashdod. Disgusting.

1040 Petero1818  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 7:33:05am

IN the future, I hope Israel takes a different approach. When the Flotilla is en route, carefully mine the perimeter, Make perfectly clear to the Flotilla in writing that the perimeter will be mined, and that they will likely die should they try to breach it. Then stay far away from the Flotilla until they need emergency assistance. If they want to martyr themselves, let them do so. My guess is they really only want to martyr themselves if they can embarrass Israel in so doing.

1041 Sacred Plants  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:09:11am

re: #570 shiplord kirel

I'm sure burning hemp has something to do with this, but the rope was probably nylon.

I expect materials to be used which can be openly certified in the market. To the rope it does not matter whether it carries a government soldier or an environmentalist activist. All I am saying is that compared to the working standards of the NGOs this was a botched action. I was not saying that the other side would have done better, but still the most notorious resident bigots are crazy in their rush to light my fire. Which makes this unfriedly encounter look to me like when you receive flak you know that you´re over the target. Sorry, it is not my fault that botched actions seem to become a trend recently in this particular political environment. For some reason that part of the world seems to undergo a creeping menikfarmization.


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