Anti-Choice Fanatics Enforce De Facto Abortion Ban in Wichita

The city where Dr. Tiller was murdered has no legal abortion services
US News • Views: 38,608

The doctor who was supposed to be a replacement for the murdered Dr. George Tiller has backed out of providing abortion services in Wichita, Kansas, following a campaign of legal harassment, intimidation, and implied threats by the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue: Faced with lawsuit, Dr. Mila Means won’t offer abortions in Wichita after all.

In December, Aid for Women announced that it was training Dr. Mila Means on abortion procedures so she could finally bring those services back to Wichita this year. Since Dr. George Tiller was murdered in 2009, the largest city in Kansas has been without abortion services.

Now, after a lawsuit was filed to keep her from practicing,� Means says she won’t be providing abortions after all.

The suit, filed earlier this month by Foliage Development Inc., owner of the business park where Means wanted to rent space, claims that a clinic would create a public nuisance. Protesters had already begun picketing outside the building, and three park tenants allegedly threatened to leave the property if the protests continued. Foliage Development got a temporary order to keep Means from opening at all. …

Pro-life activist Troy Newman, who organized protests at the site with his group Operation Rescue, promised to keep picketing anywhere Means did abortions, in the hopes that businesses around her would threaten the landlord with leaving. He called Means’ relenting “a victory for the movement.”

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256 comments
1 Kragar  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:00:54pm

Fucking neanderthals.

2 RadicalModerate  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:03:47pm

There's only one real takeaway for this, and unfortunately there may be no legal remedy for it:

Intimidation works - and the militant anti-abortion crowd knows it.

3 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:06:20pm

OK, this is an honest question, not wanting to start up a shitstorm...

re: "... Aid for Women announced that it was training Dr. Mila Means on abortion procedures..." is this (or not) what a doctor would learn in Med. school?

just asking.

4 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:07:33pm

Intimidation really does work.

5 Kragar  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:08:14pm

re: #3 brookly red

OK, this is an honest question, not wanting to start up a shitstorm...

re: "... Aid for Women announced that it was training Dr. Mila Means on abortion procedures..." is this (or not) what a doctor would learn in Med. school?

just asking.

The basics are probably covered, but in depth training on new techniques, concerns, and other related materials were probably involved.

6 McSpiff  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:08:58pm

re: #3 brookly red

OK, this is an honest question, not wanting to start up a shitstorm...

re: "... Aid for Women announced that it was training Dr. Mila Means on abortion procedures..." is this (or not) what a doctor would learn in Med. school?

just asking.

Doctors and surgeons frequently learn and develop new procedures. Its possible that even if she did learn in medschool how to perform an abortion, that there may be a new generally accepted procedure. Think of the modern laparoscopic surgeries.

7 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:09:50pm

re: #4 freetoken

Intimidation really does work.

Indeed, nobody's drawing cartoons of Mohammed any more either.

8 SpaceJesus  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:09:51pm

A common law nuisance? I don't follow. They should fight this.

9 webevintage  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:10:39pm

re: #3 brookly red

OK, this is an honest question, not wanting to start up a shitstorm...

re: "... Aid for Women announced that it was training Dr. Mila Means on abortion procedures..." is this (or not) what a doctor would learn in Med. school?

I think that abortion is the only procedure a medical student can opt out of learning.
Yep, something that is a part of woman's reproductive health care is only done by a few Doctors.

10 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:10:44pm

re: #3 brookly red

OK, this is an honest question, not wanting to start up a shitstorm...

re: "... Aid for Women announced that it was training Dr. Mila Means on abortion procedures..." is this (or not) what a doctor would learn in Med. school?

just asking.

You have to use different moves/muscles when wearing an EOD bomb suit.

11 Kragar  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:11:18pm

Given how much these assholes love to say a business should always be allowed to say to whom it provides service to, I'd back any doctor who refuses to see one of these assholes.

12 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:12:02pm

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #6 McSpiff

Thanks, I just wonder how doctors especially surgeons get trained... I mean somewhere along the line there has to be a first time.

13 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:13:12pm

re: #8 SpaceJesus

A common law nuisance? I don't follow. They should fight this.

The problem is that at the 8th and last, the property owner would just welch on the lease and face the suit. To let her open that clinic has become bad for business.

14 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:13:45pm

re: #9 webevintage

I think that abortion is the only procedure a medical student can opt out of learning.
Yep, something that is a part of woman's reproductive health care is only done by a few Doctors.

I am still curious... is there a doctor in the house?

15 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:14:46pm

Well f***....

16 Kragar  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:14:59pm

"Thank you for filling out the patient survey. I see here you're misogynistic asshole with beliefs better suited to the 16th century. I'm afraid you'll have to go down to the apothecary and arrange for a leaching. Buh-bye now."

17 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:15:50pm

re: #4 freetoken

Intimidation really does work.

"People say bullies are cowards. Well, they're wrong. Bullies are brave because they're strong. "

Abe Simpson....

18 McSpiff  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:16:12pm

re: #12 brookly red

re: #6 McSpiff

Thanks, I just wonder how doctors especially surgeons get trained... I mean somewhere along the line there has to be a first time.

No problem, that's a legitimate question.

19 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:16:20pm

Rent clinic space adjacent to a malaria-filled swamp.

20 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:16:50pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

Indeed, nobody's drawing cartoons of Mohammed any more either.

Umm... wasn't there a "lets all draw Mohammed' day none too long ago?

21 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:17:13pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

The problem is that at the 8th and last, the property owner would just welch on the lease and face the suit. To let her open that clinic has become bad for business.

So what exactly? The property owner signed the lease with eyes wide open, they're the ones pulling a bait and switch.

22 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:17:22pm

re: #19 Decatur Deb

Rent clinic space adjacent to a malaria-filled swamp.

None of those in Wichita. It's an inland local.

23 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:17:30pm

Bastards! Selfish, bigoted bastards!

24 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:17:36pm

re: #4 freetoken

Intimidation really does work.

/so can I tell Vinny that you approve the contract?

25 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:18:35pm

re: #22 Dark_Falcon

None of those in Wichita. It's an inland local.

They must have some environmental nuisance hostile to long-term picket lines.

26 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:18:39pm

re: #21 goddamnedfrank

So what exactly? The property owner signed the lease with eyes wide open, they're the ones pulling a bait and switch.

True, but there's not a way to force them to host the clinic. The most she'd get is damages.

27 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:19:28pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

Indeed, nobody's drawing cartoons of Mohammed any more either.

There's so much to say about these issues...

I for one think the fundamentalist religious groups around the world are doing much more harm than any good they might bring (say, for example, by charities), but of course they don't think so.

The standard advice, advanced by the voices of liberalism in the West, has been that increasing contacts with other groups (with different beliefs) as well as increased formal education (especially for women) will somehow negate the (overwhelmingly patriarchal) atavism of the cloistered, fundamentalist-dominated societies and groups.

Well, perhaps that worked to a degree, but it seems to me that progress along these lines has stalled. The internet and its offspring (twitter) is often cited as a step forward, but the proof will be in the pudding. I don't know of any metric that illustrates "progress".

28 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:19:32pm

re: #20 jamesfirecat

Umm... wasn't there a "lets all draw Mohammed' day none too long ago?

It was promptly canceled due to death threats. I think the chick who originally proposed it went into hiding.

29 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:19:36pm

re: #20 jamesfirecat

Umm... wasn't there a "lets all draw Mohammed' day none too long ago?

I saw that on a matchbook cover recently... but I don't want to go to art school in Iran.

30 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:20:05pm

re: #24 brookly red

/so can I tell Vinny that you approve the contract?

It's more of a "citizen's mob" out in Kansas, as opposed to a "'La Cosa Nostra" like you and I are used to.

31 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:20:24pm

re: #26 Dark_Falcon

True, but there's not a way to force them to host the clinic. The most she'd get is damages.

In theory she could use those damages to buy a place to set up the clinic, or at least it'd be a slap in the face of assholes like this....

32 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:20:28pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

It was promptly canceled due to death threats. I think the chick who originally proposed it went into hiding.

And changed her name.

33 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:21:04pm

Just to point out some of the rape gloating of the right, here is glorious bit of Rush Limbaugh at his lowest.

[Link: www.salon.com...]

Limbaugh even thinks anal rape is funny when it's no joke. He's played testimony from a rape trial just for laughs; here he is talking about a rape victim:

LIMBAUGH: Now she's on the stand in our first video clip here trying to explain when this happened. I think she got raped or some such thing like that, and -- and she's trying to explain to the jury and the judge and all the lawyers, everybody in court, how it happens. And -- well, just watch. It speaks for itself.

Unidentified Woman: He lifted my nightgown and he put his finger in my rectum ...

Falls forward

Laughter

Unidentified Voice: ... unintelligible

End of excerpt; laughter

LIMBAUGH: I'm so -- I'm so -- I'm trying not to laugh, as you can see ...

Trying not to laugh at that -- well, aren't we all? But no wonder he thinks anal rape can be funny. The only part of a woman Limbaugh seems to be able to see is her badonkadonk.

The main article is pretty good. It is about Limbaugh's ass fixation.

34 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:21:43pm

re: #31 jamesfirecat

In theory she could use those damages to buy a place to set up the clinic, or at least it'd be a slap in the face of assholes like this...

Frankly, if she built a clinic, the OR goons would bomb it or burn it. They have no respect for property.

35 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:22:12pm

re: #30 Dark_Falcon

It's more of a "citizen's mob" out in Kansas, as opposed to a "'La Cosa Nostra" like you and I are used to.

*sigh*

36 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:22:40pm

re: #33 LudwigVanQuixote

Just to point out some of the rape gloating of the right, here is glorious bit of Rush Limbaugh at his lowest.

[Link: www.salon.com...]

The main article is pretty good. It is about Limbaugh's ass fixation.

He is fixated on the ass because that is where his head is.

37 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:24:22pm

re: #32 Dark_Falcon

And changed her name.

Osama Bin Drawin'

38 Bubblehead II  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:24:45pm

re: #2 RadicalModerate

There's only one real takeaway for this, and unfortunately there may be no legal remedy for it:

Intimidation works - and the militant anti-abortion crowd knows it.

Saw this posted earlier in the Pages section. The Developers of the Business Park were between a rock and a hard space. I don't fault them. They are there to make money renting space to businesses. An Abortion Clinic (and the attendant protesters) would have a negative impact on that.

If She (Dr. Mila Means) wants to set up a Clinic, fine, do it in a place that doesn't affect other business or in a area that is willing to accept the fallout from allowing her practice.

39 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:26:15pm

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

Frankly, if she built a clinic, the OR goons would bomb it or burn it. They have no respect for property.

So fucking what?

Let them bomb it or burn it!

If don't have the moral fortitude and strength of will to fight against intractable foe who hinds behind a warped version of religion to provide cover for their actions which stand at odds with all modern western thought, why are we still in Afghanistan?

40 webevintage  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:26:23pm

re: #14 brookly red

I am still curious... is there a doctor in the house?

[Link: www.lifenews.com...]

[Link: www.medicalstudentsforchoice.org...]

If those help.

41 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:26:34pm

re: #38 Bubblehead II

Saw this posted earlier in the Pages section. The Developers of the Business Park were between a rock and a hard space. I don't fault them. They are there to make money renting space to businesses. An Abortion Clinic (and the attendant protesters) would have a negative impact on that.

If She (Dr. Mila Means) wants to set up a Clinic, fine, do it in a place that doesn't affect other business or in a area that is willing to accept the fallout from allowing her practice.

Property and transportation are solvable problems. Suspect we're getting a fraction of the details.

42 palomino  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:27:07pm

re: #3 brookly red

OK, this is an honest question, not wanting to start up a shitstorm...

re: "... Aid for Women announced that it was training Dr. Mila Means on abortion procedures..." is this (or not) what a doctor would learn in Med. school?

just asking.

NO, many med schools no longer teach abortion, either because their boards oppose the practice or because they're simply afraid of dealing with the local backlash.

43 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:27:28pm

re: #38 Bubblehead II

Saw this posted earlier in the Pages section. The Developers of the Business Park were between a rock and a hard space. I don't fault them. They are there to make money renting space to businesses. An Abortion Clinic (and the attendant protesters) would have a negative impact on that.

If She (Dr. Mila Means) wants to set up a Clinic, fine, do it in a place that doesn't affect other business or in a area that is willing to accept the fallout from allowing her practice.

The problem is that that's No Place. No one is going to want those loons fixated on their property. Too many of them are crazy enough to resort to arson.

44 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:28:04pm

re: #38 Bubblehead II

Saw this posted earlier in the Pages section. The Developers of the Business Park were between a rock and a hard space. I don't fault them. They are there to make money renting space to businesses. An Abortion Clinic (and the attendant protesters) would have a negative impact on that.

If She (Dr. Mila Means) wants to set up a Clinic, fine, do it in a place that doesn't affect other business or in a area that is willing to accept the fallout from allowing her practice.

/I don't think were in Kansas any more...

45 Renaissance_Man  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:28:54pm

re: #9 webevintage

I think that abortion is the only procedure a medical student can opt out of learning.
Yep, something that is a part of woman's reproductive health care is only done by a few Doctors.

Not exactly. There's nothing in particular that medical students can 'opt out' of learning per se in a theoretical sense, though nobody would force a medical student to do something dangerous or that they were very unwilling to do. Not because anyone cares about the sensibilities of a medical student (because let me assure you, nobody cares about that), but because it's not real good for the patient. Surgeons are always careful to tell me that I do not have to scrub and get hands-on in a surgery on a HIV+ patient, for example, though I don't know of any student who would actually take them up on that, and nobody would respect the one that did, to be honest. The theory of any procedure, though, is not something we 'opt out' of learning - it's all fair game on any exam.

But observing an abortion and assisting in the procedure is not common for a medical student, simply because few doctors do it. I have been part of nonviable inductions, which are part of an abortion doctor's purvue, and if I had to perform a delivery or C-section alone, I could. But providers of voluntary abortions are rare, and most of us aren't exposed to them as part of a normal course of study. An OBGYN resident would be exposed to them, and they would be the ones who would choose whether they would do abortions as part of their practice.

46 palomino  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:30:13pm

One of the more underreported stories on abortion is the right's practical, if not legal, victories on many fronts. In some rural right-leaning states, there are few, if any, abortion providers whatsoever, largely because of the intimidation of groups like Operation Rescue. Most docs now won't take the risk of entering the field, understandably, since the threats and general pain in the ass is just too much.

47 webevintage  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:34:55pm

Am I the only woman who is beginning to feel just worn down by the conservative war on women?
This last month has just been exhausting emotionally and mentally for me.

They just can't leave us the fuck alone.
If it is not ridiculous requirements for abortion then it is bills that allow someone to kill abortion providers or it is the realization that even a woman who might die if she does not get an abortion may someday be unable to find a Dr. to perform the procedure in her area of the country or these the try to redefine what rape is or the next thing you know they are going after access to contraception.

The only thing I can hope for is that all of this will prove to those young gals out there who like to say "I'm not a feminist" that yeah, you really are one if you want to continue to have autonomy when it comes to your womb.

ERA anyone?

48 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:37:18pm

This quote from a partisan perspective shows the pro-choice people expected little help from legal or law-enforcement in the area.

"But Dr. Susan Robinson was adamant. She flies to Wichita every month to perform abortions in Tiller’s clinic. She said, “It is generally regarded amongst those who do clinic security, if local authorities are not responsive, if they don’t show up or they don’t vigilantly enforce the law, that it encourages the anti-abortion people to push it further and further.”

She said: “In Wichita, Dr. Tiller was constantly dealing with the same lack of enforcement. Wichita prohibits placing signs on city property. But they allow the anti-abortion protesters to set up dozens of crosses and leave them all day. Dr. Tiller went to the city attorney over the crosses, and complained that people block the clinic driveway. He told me that the city attorney said, ‘I would rather be sued by George Tiller than the anti-abortion folks.’ ”

[Link: www.pubtheo.com...]

49 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:38:07pm

re: #47 webevintage


ERA anyone?

Languished - now history.

50 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:38:15pm

Well, shit.
We don't have to go all the way to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban.
They're right here.

51 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:38:59pm

re: #46 palomino

One of the more underreported stories on abortion is the right's practical, if not legal, victories on many fronts. In some rural right-leaning states, there are few, if any, abortion providers whatsoever, largely because of the intimidation of groups like Operation Rescue. Most docs now won't take the risk of entering the field, understandably, since the threats and general pain in the ass is just too much.

it would seem that some fields of practice expose the doctor to more risk than others.

52 Four More Tears  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:40:06pm

I'm appalled that this development group would deny anti-abortion groups a place to protest!

53 webevintage  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:40:09pm

Another article on abortion training or lack there of in residency programs:
[Link: jama.ama-assn.org...]

54 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:41:45pm

re: #50 Varek Raith

Well, shit.
We don't have to go all the way to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban.
They're right here.

/well don't look for Planned Parenthood centers to open in Cairo anytime soon...

55 palomino  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:42:43pm

re: #47 webevintage

Am I the only woman who is beginning to feel just worn down by the conservative war on women?
This last month has just been exhausting emotionally and mentally for me.

They just can't leave us the fuck alone.
If it is not ridiculous requirements for abortion then it is bills that allow someone to kill abortion providers or it is the realization that even a woman who might die if she does not get an abortion may someday be unable to find a Dr. to perform the procedure in her area of the country or these the try to redefine what rape is or the next thing you know they are going after access to contraception.

The only thing I can hope for is that all of this will prove to those young gals out there who like to say "I'm not a feminist" that yeah, you really are one if you want to continue to have autonomy when it comes to your womb.

ERA anyone?

It's one of the consequences of the gop still being overwhelmingly male. We heard a lot about the new crop of women in the gop over the last year. But most of them lost (O'Donnell, Angle, Fiorina, Whitman) or they're irrelevant/crazy (Palin and Bachmann). The GOP caucus is still over 90% male in Congress, and the state legislatures reflect the same thing. State legislatures show similar breakdowns in many places. In TX, for example, 80% of all legislators are male; and that includes BOTH parties.

56 Virginia Plain  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:43:42pm

re: #54 brookly red

/well don't look for Planned Parenthood centers to open in Cairo anytime soon...

We're not that far away from Planned Parenthood clinics being closed in the good old US of A. Only it's the Christian Brotherhood that will be behind it.

57 Four More Tears  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:43:54pm

War on Women, ctd:

Republican Officials Cut Head Start Funding, Saying Women Should Be Married And Home With Kids

COMMISSIONER C. PAUL SMITH (R): I think its very significant that we did make this marriage week announcement today, because that is the best long-term way to help our children, as marriage is strengthened in our community. As many of you know, I had a lot of kids, and my wife stayed home, at significant sacrifice, during those early years, because she knew she had to be with those kids at that critical age. I know everybody isn’t able to survive doing that, but clearly, as we can strengthen marriage we can decrease the children that we have to reach.

COMMISSIONER KIRBY DELAUTER (R): My wife, college educated, could go out and get a very good job. She gave that up for 18 years so she could stay home with our kids, we had to give up a lot to do that. I agree again with Commissioner Smith, you know, the marriage thing is very important. I mean, education of your kids starts at home, okay? I never relied on anyone else to guarantee the education of my kids.

58 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:44:04pm

Bill O'reilly " Will Ron Paul Destroy The Republican Party?"

Youtube Video

heh

59 palomino  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:44:10pm

re: #51 brookly red

it would seem that some fields of practice expose the doctor to more risk than others.

True, but there's nothing organic about it--instead it's a risk manufactured by Operation Rescue and other similarly rabid groups. And it's been quite effective.

60 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:44:11pm

re: #54 brookly red

/well don't look for Planned Parenthood centers to open in Cairo anytime soon...

Yeah, great example.
Some parts of the US are just like Cairo!
9_9

61 Bubblehead II  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:44:46pm

re: #43 Dark_Falcon

The problem is that that's No Place. No one is going to want those loons fixated on their property. Too many of them are crazy enough to resort to arson.

re: #44 brookly red

/I don't think were in Kansas any more...

And that Lizards is the problem. Kansas and the "Bible Belt" (as well as 3rd World) will one way or another continue to deprive Women of the Right to determine the "ownership" of Their own bodies.

Welcome to slavery in the 21st Century.

62 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:46:29pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Bill O'reilly " Will Ron Paul Destroy The Republican Party?"

[Video]

heh

Did you happen to view the streaming video of the Paul chaired committee hearing on the Fed a couple of weeks ago? It really didn't get the coverage it deserved. Paul brought in some classic gold-nut Fed-iz-evul "witnesses". He really ought to be called on this, as well as the GOP leadership, for being on the cutting edge of dismantling modern America.

63 recusancy  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:47:00pm

re: #54 brookly red

/well don't look for Planned Parenthood centers to open in Cairo anytime soon...

There are some muslim countries with liberalized abortion laws. Tunisia was one.

64 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:47:45pm

re: #57 JasonA

War on Women, ctd:

Republican Officials Cut Head Start Funding, Saying Women Should Be Married And Home With Kids

I wonder how much they make as county commissioners, sounds like a full time paying job, bet they make enough to supplement their wives not working. The rest of us can't really do that.

65 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:47:49pm

re: #63 recusancy

There are some muslim countries with liberalized abortion laws. Tunisia was one.

was one? no longer?

66 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:48:06pm

re: #60 Varek Raith

Yeah, great example.
Some parts of the US are just like Cairo!
9_9

I seem to recall that first trimester abortions are generally permissible in Islam. I'm also pretty sure they generally accept birth control as well.

67 webevintage  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:48:18pm

re: #57 JasonA

War on Women, ctd:

Republican Officials Cut Head Start Funding, Saying Women Should Be Married And Home With Kids

These guys are just. such. bastards.
Sanctimonious bastards.

You know, I chose to stay home and home school but that does not mean that that means all women should stay home.

68 recusancy  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:48:45pm

re: #65 brookly red

was one? no longer?

Well their laws are probably up in the air right now.

69 recusancy  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:49:06pm

re: #66 Killgore Trout

I seem to recall that first trimester abortions are generally permissible in Islam. I'm also pretty sure they generally accept birth control as well.

[Link: www.ipas.org...]

70 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:49:24pm

Islam and abortion

Muslim views on abortion are shaped by the Quran and Hadith as well as by the opinions of legal and religious scholars and commentators. In Islam, the fetus is believed to become a living soul after four months of gestation,[1] and abortion after that point is generally viewed as impermissible

71 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:50:43pm

re: #65 brookly red

was one? no longer?

With the overthrow of its longtime dictator, there's no way to be sure what form the law will now take in Tunisia. There are some there who want to engage in what I'm going to call "Islamist Rollback".

72 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:50:52pm

re: #66 Killgore Trout

I seem to recall that first trimester abortions are generally permissible in Islam. I'm also pretty sure they generally accept birth control as well.

interesting, I don't say your wrong but I have never heard anything to support that either... anyone care to Google?

73 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:51:05pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Islam and abortion

Thanks for the info.

74 palomino  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:51:21pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Bill O'reilly " Will Ron Paul Destroy The Republican Party?"

[Video]

heh

For a change O'Reilly is right. Paul is an isolationist, a social libertarian, and he opposes all big govt, including gop big govt. So he really has no chance in the gop primaries. But his eccentric, sometimes radical views, do provide some entertainment. And they help demonstrate the schisms in the gop.

75 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:51:34pm

re: #72 brookly red

See #70

76 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:51:35pm

BTW, right now in the House they are going over the HHS funding, live:

[Link: houselive.gov...]

77 CuriousLurker  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:51:42pm

re: #72 brookly red

interesting, I don't say your wrong but I have never heard anything to support that either... anyone care to Google?

KT is correct.

78 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:52:16pm

re: #74 palomino

For a change O'Reilly is right. Paul is an isolationist, a social libertarian, and he opposes all big govt, including gop big govt. So he really has no chance in the gop primaries. But his eccentric, sometimes radical views, do provide some entertainment. And they help demonstrate the schisms in the gop.

GOLD!

79 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:53:28pm

BTW, Chistians haven't always been opposed to abortion either...

Roman Catholicism and abortion access
Pagan & Christian beliefs 400 BCE -1980 CE

It's a fairly modern interpretation.

80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:53:31pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Islam and abortion

so that proves it, anyone who is pro-abortion (ie thinking it's a woman's right to choose up to 4 months, later with exceptions of course) must be an Islamist sympathizer!

//

81 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:53:33pm

re: #57 JasonA

War on Women, ctd:

Republican Officials Cut Head Start Funding, Saying Women Should Be Married And Home With Kids

Head Start is only proven to be the most effective program ever for kids who are poor. It is the last program of the federal budget that should EVER be cut.

82 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:54:21pm

This is how they do it!

Man, I wonder in 50 years, if America is basically just going to be these balkanized states with zero unity

Seems like that is the way a lot of people want to go

83 palomino  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:54:22pm

re: #78 Varek Raith

GOLD!

It's the new "standard", even if the Feds no longer acknowledge the fact.//

"Buy lots of gold, it's your only hedge against the coming Zimbabwe-type hyperinflation."

84 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:54:59pm

re: #81 wrenchwench

Head Start is only proven to be the most effective program ever for kids who are poor. It is the last program of the federal budget that should EVER be cut.

ah but see to the right, and republicans in general, nothing the government does ever works and they set out to prove it every time they are elected.

85 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:55:26pm

re: #50 Varek Raith

Well, shit.
We don't have to go all the way to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban.
They're right here.

And they "love america" or at least they love a thing they've deluded themselves into believing is "america"

86 CuriousLurker  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:55:32pm

re: #77 CuriousLurker

KT is correct.

And there is no prohibition on birth control, as resusancy indicated. Abortion after 4 months would only be permissible where the mother's life was in danger.

87 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:55:42pm

re: #83 palomino

It's the new "standard", even if the Feds no longer acknowledge the fact.//

"Buy lots of gold, it's your only hedge against the coming Zimbabwe-type hyperinflation."

Troubled economic times. Until things improve, people will regard gold as a useful hedge.

88 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:56:33pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

re: #77 CuriousLurker

KT is correct.

hmmm, OK I can dig that, but most of the Muslims in these parts have bumper stickers that say " It is a child, not a choice"... I am not a Muslim and don't have any firsthand insight.

89 recusancy  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:56:35pm

re: #83 palomino

It's the new "standard", even if the Feds no longer acknowledge the fact.//

"Buy lots of gold, it's your only hedge against the coming Zimbabwe-type hyperinflation."

Paul Ryan is in the Paul camp on this one.
also: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

90 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:56:42pm

Some (R) from MI just rose to speak in favor of not totally eliminating the NEA, like the Tea Partiers want. I think he just said he was at one time financial chair of a trust for a symphony orchestra. Anyway, the NEA will still be cut, but he doesn't want it completely eliminated.

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:58:21pm

re: #90 freetoken

Some (R) from MI just rose to speak in favor of not totally eliminating the NEA, like the Tea Partiers want. I think he just said he was at one time financial chair of a trust for a symphony orchestra. Anyway, the NEA will still be cut, but he doesn't want it completely eliminated.

Marvel at the cultural skirmishes as the genteel upper crust GOP comes into stark conflict with the uneducated Tea Party burn-it-all-down rubes who think a "symphony" is a hershey bar

92 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:59:37pm

re: #90 freetoken

Some (R) from MI just rose to speak in favor of not totally eliminating the NEA, like the Tea Partiers want. I think he just said he was at one time financial chair of a trust for a symphony orchestra. Anyway, the NEA will still be cut, but he doesn't want it completely eliminated.

Save the String Quartet!!1!

93 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:59:46pm

Rep. Moran (D) just rose to defend the NEA.

re: #91 WindUpBird

The (R) who just rose and offered amendment 196 still wanted to cut the NEA funding, by more than some others. But he wanted it to not go to 0. I'm not sure I would consider it a victory.

94 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 4:59:50pm

re: #90 freetoken

Some (R) from MI just rose to speak in favor of not totally eliminating the NEA, like the Tea Partiers want. I think he just said he was at one time financial chair of a trust for a symphony orchestra. Anyway, the NEA will still be cut, but he doesn't want it completely eliminated.

Well, it should be cut. The budget has to be reduced and the NEA is a program that can be reduced without excessive pain. On that one, Republicans will get most of what they want.

95 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:00:17pm

re: #92 Decatur Deb

SAVE THE STRINGS!!

96 recusancy  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:00:33pm

re: #90 freetoken

Some (R) from MI just rose to speak in favor of not totally eliminating the NEA, like the Tea Partiers want. I think he just said he was at one time financial chair of a trust for a symphony orchestra. Anyway, the NEA will still be cut, but he doesn't want it completely eliminated.

Camp? Hoeskstra?

97 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:00:49pm

re: #48 Decatur Deb

This quote from a partisan perspective shows the pro-choice people expected little help from legal or law-enforcement in the area.

"But Dr. Susan Robinson was adamant. She flies to Wichita every month to perform abortions in Tiller’s clinic. She said, “It is generally regarded amongst those who do clinic security, if local authorities are not responsive, if they don’t show up or they don’t vigilantly enforce the law, that it encourages the anti-abortion people to push it further and further.”

She said: “In Wichita, Dr. Tiller was constantly dealing with the same lack of enforcement. Wichita prohibits placing signs on city property. But they allow the anti-abortion protesters to set up dozens of crosses and leave them all day. Dr. Tiller went to the city attorney over the crosses, and complained that people block the clinic driveway. He told me that the city attorney said, ‘I would rather be sued by George Tiller than the anti-abortion folks.’ ”

[Link: www.pubtheo.com...]

"Well, guess we'll just let the murderers win..."

98 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:01:16pm

re: #96 recusancy

Walberg.

99 Four More Tears  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:01:17pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

Well, it should be cut. The budget has to be reduced and the NEA is a program that can be reduced without excessive pain. On that one, Republicans will get most of what they want.

Yeah, that'll help get us out of this ditch...

100 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:01:41pm

re: #83 palomino

It's the new "standard", even if the Feds no longer acknowledge the fact.//

"Buy lots of gold, it's your only hedge against the coming Zimbabwe-type hyperinflation."

I bought gold years ago when prices were low... sure glad I did. I don't think I will buy a today's rates.

101 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:01:49pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

Well, it should be cut. The budget has to be reduced and the NEA is a program that can be reduced without excessive pain. On that one, Republicans will get most of what they want.

So what's the NEA's entire budget compared to that fighter jet engine pork the house shot down?

102 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:01:50pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

Well, it should be cut. The budget has to be reduced and the NEA is a program that can be reduced without excessive pain. On that one, Republicans will get most of what they want.

Sorry, but prove it.

103 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:02:07pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

Well, it should be cut. The budget has to be reduced and the NEA is a program that can be reduced without excessive pain. On that one, Republicans will get most of what they want.

Because, you know only leftist intelligentsia like art and culture ///

104 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:02:46pm

Moran is making a good point. He said the question isn't whether the arts will survive - they will. The issue is whether they will be accessible. Gov't funding for art isn't for art's sake, its to make it for readily available to communities that otherwise would not get high quality art.

105 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:02:57pm

re: #99 JasonA

Yeah, that'll help get us out of this ditch...

please explain "ditch"

106 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:03:36pm

Wow, the NEA thing is getting the sleeping Reps out of their chairs to waddle to the microphone and speak.

107 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:04:02pm

re: #104 freetoken

Moran is making a good point. He said the question isn't whether the arts will survive - they will. The issue is whether they will be accessible. Gov't funding for art isn't for art's sake, its to make it for readily available to communities that otherwise would not get high quality art.

NEA truly does a poor job of that. Not much of it is getting to Lower Alabama.

108 wee fury  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:04:12pm

re: #100 brookly red

I bought gold years ago when prices were low... sure glad I did. I don't think I will buy a today's rates.

Silver is high too.

109 recusancy  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:04:17pm

re: #106 freetoken

Wow, the NEA thing is getting the sleeping Reps out of their chairs to waddle to the microphone and speak.

Righty's hate art and government. It's a perfect storm.

110 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:04:50pm

re: #101 WindUpBird

So what's the NEA's entire budget compared to that fighter jet engine pork the house shot down?

President Obama proposed on Monday that the National Endowment for the Arts receive $161.3 million in his fiscal year 2011 budget request to Congress...


I think the engine pork $400 million.

111 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:05:05pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

Well, it should be cut. The budget has to be reduced and the NEA is a program that can be reduced without excessive pain. On that one, Republicans will get most of what they want.

So it appears like the NEA's 2010 budget is one third the size of that fighter jet engine pork earmark the House shot down. Care to revise your statement? ;-)

I know art doesn't mean much to you, but you know, some of us sorta like it because it's sort of part of the human experience to make art and music

You may now return to fetishizing weapons of human destruction, I'll be the simple one over here making things that make people happy

112 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:05:06pm

re: #108 wee fury

Silver is high too.

yes, but I still like it especially in coin form.

113 recusancy  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:05:14pm

re: #107 Decatur Deb

NEA truly does a poor job of that. Not much of it is getting to Lower Alabama.

That may be local reps fault.

114 Bubblehead II  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:05:21pm

re: #78 Varek Raith

GOLD!

Actually buy Silver.

// If it was good enough for Judas, it's good enough for me.

115 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:05:30pm

re: #102 Varek Raith

Sorry, but prove it.

he knows nothing about the NEA, you're wasting your time

116 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:06:10pm

re: #79 Killgore Trout

BTW, Chistians haven't always been opposed to abortion either...

Roman Catholicism and abortion access
Pagan & Christian beliefs 400 BCE -1980 CE

It's a fairly modern interpretation.

It's interesting to reread that link. I'm no theologian but here's my take: JC (or the authors who invented him) were well aware of the practice of Abortion. Jews and Romans at the time practiced it. It was not included in the Bible so I assume it wasn't an important enough issue to ban ban outright.

117 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:06:32pm

re: #113 recusancy

That may be local reps fault.

Think about that--who do you think is going to vote to kill it?

118 Four More Tears  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:06:40pm

re: #105 brookly red

please explain "ditch"

The reason we're talking about slicing spending in the first place?

119 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:07:05pm

re: #101 WindUpBird

So what's the NEA's entire budget compared to that fighter jet engine pork the house shot down?

161.4 million to 450 million, or 1:2.788

120 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:07:47pm

re: #118 JasonA

The reason we're talking about slicing spending in the first place?

could you be more specific?

121 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:08:33pm

re: #116 Killgore Trout

It's been my impression that Roman civilization pretty much didn't recognize a person as a "human" until they reached about 2 years old, because of the prevalence of infant mortality. Also, that abortions were pretty standard in that society.

Certainly Judea of that time would have been well aware of their overlord's practices.

122 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:08:41pm

And the second engine for the JSF.
Way to ignore the advice of the military on that, Boehner.
They didn't want it.

123 wee fury  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:08:51pm

re: #116 Killgore Trout

It's interesting to reread that link. I'm no theologian but here's my take: JC (or the authors who invented him) were well aware of the practice of Abortion. Jews and Romans at the time practiced it. It was not included in the Bible so I assume it wasn't an important enough issue to ban ban outright.

Infanticide was more predominant than abortion in that time period.

124 CuriousLurker  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:09:34pm

re: #88 brookly red

re: #77 CuriousLurker

hmmm, OK I can dig that, but most of the Muslims in these parts have bumper stickers that say " It is a child, not a choice"... I am not a Muslim and don't have any firsthand insight.

Well, there may be some anti-choice Muslims out there, but if you go by the book it's permissible up to 4 months. It's not encouraged, but then I don't suppose most abortions are. FWIW, there are plenty of Muslims who are ignorant of their own rules/laws, or who may have decided that it's not something they'd want to do regardless.

There are also differences with adoptions. the child must always know who his/her biological parents are and keep the father's surname.

IIRC, artificial insemination using sperm that is not the husband's, or the implanting of eggs that are not the wife's would be impermissible as it would be tantamount to adultery according to sharia. I'd have to look up the details to be 100% sure though.

125 Four More Tears  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:09:57pm

re: #119 goddamnedfrank

161.4 million to 450 million, or 1:2.788

For comparison, an F-22 fighter jet costs at least $150 mil...

126 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:10:00pm

re: #110 Varek Raith

President Obama proposed on Monday that the National Endowment for the Arts receive $161.3 million in his fiscal year 2011 budget request to Congress...

I think the engine pork $400 million.

yes, good start but we need to lose Trillions... 400 million is chump change.

127 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:10:06pm

re: #102 Varek Raith

Sorry, but prove it.

It's being cut won't affect that many people. And frankly, even if it did I'd still approve of the cut. We need to reduce spending and that means some pain.

128 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:10:08pm

re: #123 wee fury

Infanticide was more predominant than abortion in that time period.

Reminds me of the big archeo news story from the UK last year, of the discovery of 97 (likely) murdered newborns at a likely brothel serving a nearby Roman garrison.

129 Four More Tears  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:10:23pm

re: #120 brookly red

could you be more specific?

Yes. Yes I could.

130 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:10:38pm

re: #110 Varek Raith

President Obama proposed on Monday that the National Endowment for the Arts receive $161.3 million in his fiscal year 2011 budget request to Congress...

I think the engine pork $400 million.

yup

Oh God the NEA! Someone save us from the goliath of the NEA! If I had a dime for every masturbatory exercise about cutting the NEA that the average conservative hack host or grandstanding Republican in congress engages in... the ghost of evil pile of shit Jesse Helms strides high across the landscape of America

Meanwhile, out go billions to abstract military hardware, useless and wasteful in the extreme, not a peep, because hey, guns are sexy! Things that are designed to kill people are sexy! Bragging rights! Chest-thumping! Military culture! Build it bigger and more destructive and more expensive!

131 recusancy  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:11:11pm

re: #126 brookly red

yes, good start but we need to lose Trillions... 400 million is chump change.

LOL.. Trillions a year? The entire yearly budget is only a few trillion.

132 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:11:11pm

The Nay won the vote on amendment 196. Walberg asked for roll call.

133 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:11:52pm

re: #106 freetoken

Wow, the NEA thing is getting the sleeping Reps out of their chairs to waddle to the microphone and speak.

Of course it is

"Andres Serrano! Faggot artists! Bugs on Mother Mary! Maggots somewhere or other! Jesus! Hold on, gotta fart... where was I? Is it bedtime yet?"

134 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:12:34pm

re: #131 recusancy

LOL.. Trillions a year? The entire yearly budget is only a few trillion.

where did I say a year? no let's just talk debt.

135 Four More Tears  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:12:39pm

re: #130 WindUpBird

This would be a whole lot easier if that bum O'Keefe would do a hit job on them...

136 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:12:42pm

re: #122 Varek Raith

And the second engine for the JSF.
Way to ignore the advice of the military on that, Boehner.
They didn't want it.

It's not just pork, Varek. The Air Force may not say they want it, but given the F-35's troubles, they may need it. It also may help with export sales.

137 recusancy  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:13:05pm

re: #134 brookly red

where did I say a year? no let's just talk debt.

That jet program was per year. So you were comparing something per year.

138 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:13:10pm

Conseco (R-TX) just rose to support his amendment to totally zero the special fund for arts for the DC. The proposed GOP budget actually retained a few million dollars for the arts for the District. The Texan doesn't like that.

139 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:13:24pm

re: #133 WindUpBird

Of course it is

"Andres Serrano! Faggot artists! Bugs on Mother Mary! Maggots somewhere or other! Jesus! Hold on, gotta fart... where was I? Is it bedtime yet?"

We can have guns and buttsecks.

140 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:13:51pm

re: #137 recusancy

That jet program was per year. So you were comparing something per year.

yeah what ever.. nit pick away...

141 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:14:02pm

Live-Blogging the revolution...

142 recusancy  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:14:05pm

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

It's not just pork, Varek. The Air Force may not say they want it, but given the F-35's troubles, they may need it. It also may help with export sales.

It got cut. You lose. Move on.

143 Four More Tears  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:14:18pm

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

It's not just pork, Varek. The Air Force may not say they want it, but given the F-35's troubles, they may need it. It also may help with export sales.

o.O

We finally get the military to say that they don't want to spend more money and you're of the opinion that they're wrong?

144 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:14:23pm

re: #130 WindUpBird

yup

Oh God the NEA! Someone save us from the goliath of the NEA! If I had a dime for every masturbatory exercise about cutting the NEA that the average conservative hack host or grandstanding Republican in congress engages in... the ghost of evil pile of shit Jesse Helms strides high across the landscape of America

Meanwhile, out go billions to abstract military hardware, useless and wasteful in the extreme, not a peep, because hey, guns are sexy! Things that are designed to kill people are sexy! Bragging rights! Chest-thumping! Military culture! Build it bigger and more destructive and more expensive!

I love the sums of money involved. Boner wants jetengines that not even the military want and he's willing to cry on demand about $100m for arts programming.
F'N'C (in the english vernacular)

145 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:14:59pm

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

It's not just pork, Varek. The Air Force may not say they want it, but given the F-35's troubles, they may need it. It also may help with export sales.

The Navy was also against it.
Limited space on carriers for multiple lines of parts and engines.

146 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:15:08pm

re: #141 freetoken

Live-Blogging the revolution...

New York? Chicago? Dallas? where?

147 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:15:27pm

re: #139 Decatur Deb

We can have guns and buttsecks.

where do i sign?

;)

148 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:15:43pm

And what about the V-22?
That thing was a death trap. Did it get separate engines?

149 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:16:00pm

re: #146 brookly red

New York? Chicago? Dallas? where?

Capitol Hill.

150 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:17:05pm

re: #149 freetoken

Capitol Hill.

shit... I thought you meant in America. Don't worry it's a coming.

151 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:17:35pm

re: #145 Varek Raith

The Navy was also against it.
Limited space on carriers for multiple lines of parts and engines.

And logistics.
Let's see this squadron has this engine, this one has both, this one has the other... Oh, crap, they sent the wrong parts.
Wheee.

152 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:18:13pm

re: #151 Varek Raith

And logistics.
Let's see this squadron has this engine, this one has both, this one has the other... Oh, crap, they sent the wrong parts.
Wheee.

just buy drones.

153 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:18:41pm

re: #121 freetoken

Certainly Judea of that time would have been well aware of their overlord's practices.


Abortion has always been permissible in Judaism as well.

154 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:18:49pm

The DC arts budget Boehner proposed was 4.5 million dollars. Down, but not totally eliminated. The Texas Rep wants to eliminate it because he doesn't understand why the Congress would specifically fund something just for DC.

Duh - DC is the responsibility of Congress.

A Democrat rep just rose to explain that idea - that cities in states rely often on their State funds for these type of things, and DC isn't part of a State, so...

155 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:18:53pm

The second engine was built in Boehner's and Cantor's districts.
Hmm...

156 Four More Tears  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:20:30pm

re: #155 Varek Raith

The second engine was built in Boehner's and Cantor's districts.
Hmm...

The plot thins...

157 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:20:51pm

re: #155 Varek Raith

The second engine was built in Boehner's and Cantor's districts.
Hmm...


Go figure.

Just found online "the propents of the second enhgine argued that competition would eventually lower cost for the government".*ahem* bullshit.

158 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:21:20pm

Voice vote on 249 - Nays had it, but Canseco requests roll call... so later when all the GOP are there they can tackle it.

159 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:21:41pm

re: #157 wozzablog

Typographical errors all mine.

160 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:21:47pm

re: #148 Varek Raith

And what about the V-22?
That thing was a death trap. Did it get separate engines?

The V-22 actually works quite well, now. I'm fine with cutting the second F-35 engine, but we need the V-22 and it's not going to be cut. Good as the UH-60 is, it can't do some of what the V-22 does. And the Marines have come to love the Osprey.

161 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:23:59pm

holy hell - were they actually planning a VTOL version of the (already massively over budget) F35?

There is a reason the Harrier has been an evolutionary dead end - and no amount of money will change that.

162 Kragar  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:25:55pm

re: #160 Dark_Falcon

The V-22 actually works quite well, now. I'm fine with cutting the second F-35 engine, but we need the V-22 and it's not going to be cut. Good as the UH-60 is, it can't do some of what the V-22 does. And the Marines have come to love the Osprey.

Now they do. I remember the fun my office had when we got the call that we needed to provide a team of techs to go over to New River Air Station to supervise disconnecting the servers there because NCIS was seizing them for evidence and were afraid the command would tamper with evidence. This was when they were falling from the sky like bricks and the scandal about falsifying reports came to light.

163 Four More Tears  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:25:58pm

re: #161 wozzablog

holy hell - were they actually planning a VTOL version of the (already massively over budget) F35?

There is a reason the Harrier has been an evolutionary dead end - and no amount of money will change that.

Yep. Watch Die Hard 4 when you get a chance.

164 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:26:36pm

re: #161 wozzablog

holy hell - were they actually planning a VTOL version of the (already massively over budget) F35?

There is a reason the Harrier has been an evolutionary dead end - and no amount of money will change that.

The I think it's going to be an STOL version now, but its still wanted for the Marine landing ships. It's to replace the Harrier.

165 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:26:52pm

Look, if the F35 has such a defective main engine that a competing engine must also be built....
Why the hell are we even using the first engine?

166 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:28:03pm

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

The I think it's going to be an STOL version now, but its still wanted for the Marine landing ships. It's to replace the Harrier.

I think it was STOL as well.
My data sheets are outdated.
:(

167 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:28:05pm

re: #165 Varek Raith

Look, if the F35 has such a defective main engine that a competing engine must also be built...
Why the hell are we even using the first engine?

Not defective. The strategy is to have two competing contractors who won't go to lunch together.

168 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:28:43pm

re: #162 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Now they do. I remember the fun my office had when we got the call that we needed to provide a team of techs to go over to New River Air Station to supervise disconnecting the servers there because NCIS was seizing them for evidence and were afraid the command would tamper with evidence. This was when they were falling from the sky like bricks and the scandal about falsifying reports came to light.

Yep. That was then, this now. It turns out that the Osprey solved its main problems. They even got the chin turret Dale Brown hypothesized to work. Making it perhaps the first gadget Dale Brown forecast that actually made it into production.

169 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:29:15pm

re: #167 Decatur Deb

Not defective. The strategy is to have two competing contractors who won't go to lunch together.

Confused, I am.
And these two contractors are?
:/

170 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:30:00pm

Do we do what was proposed with the F35 with any other military asset?

171 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:30:26pm

re: #167 Decatur Deb

Not defective. The strategy is to have two competing contractors who won't go to lunch together.

well let us hope the choice is made by Engineers and not bloggers.

172 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:31:16pm

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

The I think it's going to be an STOL version now, but its still wanted for the Marine landing ships. It's to replace the Harrier.

They would have to build down to the harriers capabillities - not up from them.
A "New Harrier" project would probably have been cheaper and found it was highly unlikely to suceede. Start with the Harrier fundamentals - that was the only way it was ever going to work, it was always going to be impossible to retrofit a frame with vtol.

These planners can not seemingly think backwards.

The Harrier worked - barely - 90seconds MAX of VTOL capabillity before things started to fall apart in the engine.

173 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:31:22pm

re: #169 Varek Raith

Confused, I am.
And these two contractors are?
:/

GE (alternate) and Pratt&Whitney.

174 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:31:25pm

Hehe... some Tea Partier from NY tried to cut off funding for the Presidio Park project .... on the voice vote I couldn't even hear any Yeas. The Dems won that one - even an (R) rose to oppose the amendment.

175 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:31:33pm

re: #171 brookly red

well let us hope the choice is made by Engineers and not bloggers.

Seems it's being made by politicians.

176 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:31:35pm

re: #170 Varek Raith

Do we do what was proposed with the F35 with any other military asset?

yes. build em & never use em.

177 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:31:54pm

re: #169 Varek Raith

Confused, I am.
And these two contractors are?
:/

Pratt & Whitney has the primary engine contract. The other is supposed to be built by GE.

178 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:32:04pm

re: #170 Varek Raith

Do we do what was proposed with the F35 with any other military asset?

F-16, IIRC.

179 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:32:36pm

re: #175 Varek Raith

Seems it's being made by politicians.

we are screwed, same as it ever was.

180 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:32:48pm

re: #174 freetoken

Hehe... some Tea Partier from NY tried to cut off funding for the Presidio Park project ... on the voice vote I couldn't even hear any Yeas. The Dems won that one - even an (R) rose to oppose the amendment.

Can we say that motion got tea-bagged?

181 Bubblehead II  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:33:29pm

Lizards, Time to call it a night.

To my Wife.

Youtube Video
182 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:34:08pm

re: #180 Dark_Falcon

Can we say that motion got tea-bagged?

You're a sick man!
///

183 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:34:44pm

re: #178 Decatur Deb

F-16, IIRC.

It's official.
I. Do. Not. Understand. DoD. Procurement.
:)

184 darthstar  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:35:13pm

Laurence O'Donnell about 90 seconds away from a retraction. In a teaser about Michelle Bachmann's batshit craziness (with her picture in the video), he just said "Michelle Obama"...oops.

185 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:35:13pm

re: #170 Varek Raith

Do we do what was proposed with the F35 with any other military asset?

It's kinda like this...............

Charlie Brown is COngress and Lucy is the COntractor.

Youtube Video
186 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:35:18pm

Beer & Chinese take out time... yeah like that.

187 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:36:00pm

re: #183 Varek Raith

It's official.
I. Do. Not. Understand. DoD. Procurement.
:)

It's quite simple. Make part of every system in every congressional district.

188 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:36:22pm

re: #177 Dark_Falcon

Pratt & Whitney has the primary engine contract. The other is supposed to be built by GE.

GE with ROlls Royce.

189 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:36:50pm

re: #183 Varek Raith

It's official.
I. Do. Not. Understand. DoD. Procurement.
:)

Get in line. Neither do I.

190 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:37:09pm

A female Dem from NY just rose to discuss the cuts to women's health care. She's even calling out the "extremist" agenda. She's not holding back on rape, incest, and abortion.

191 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:38:07pm

re: #188 wozzablog

GE with ROlls Royce.

True. That's part of how its supposed to help export sales. Let the UK buy the F35 with a RR engine, goes the theory.

192 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:38:18pm

The bill reading reached the part about Title X. This is bringing out the Dem women to speak about these issues (contraception, abortion, etc.)

193 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:38:24pm

Image: atl_wall_chart.jpg

O_o

194 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:39:01pm

re: #191 Dark_Falcon

True. That's part of how its supposed to help export sales. Let the UK buy the F35 with a RR engine, goes the theory.

Which is absolutely freaking stupid as the UK has Eurofighter.

195 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:39:54pm

These women speakers aren't holding back. One just bluntly said that the budget cutting for Title X is just a front for extremist anti-woman agendas.

196 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:40:08pm

re: #193 Varek Raith

Image: atl_wall_chart.jpg

O_o

Note the "DAU" in the upper right corner? Alma Mater.

197 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:41:26pm

re: #196 Decatur Deb

Note the "DAU" in the upper right corner? Alma Mater.

Give that man or woman a medal for that flow chart.
A feat of tremendous achievement.
:)

198 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:41:32pm

re: #194 wozzablog

AND - we are retiring Harrier early, and Tornado GR7.

We are sutting the carrier fleet - and well, theres essentially going to be no airforce to fly these shiny planes.

199 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:42:02pm

An Alabama R woman just started in on Planned Parenthood, and she just referenced the phoney vidoes!!!


She's actually citing the fraudulent videos!!

200 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:42:23pm

Rancid Hot Air alert. That site has put up a thread talking about a supposed willingness by the US to oppose West Bank settlements, though not formally voting to condemn Israel. As usual, the Bad Craziness doesn't take long to being:

I would rather never give Israel a penny and tell the UN to f*ck off here than play play house… :/

The US shouldn’t even be involved with Peace Talks. Ridiculous. F’ the Arabs.

MeatHeadinCA on February 16, 2011 at 8:26 PM

What is this “bet-hedging” crap? Obama supports the secular muslim brotherhood, and he will do all he can to further its goals. Similarly, he does not support American and will do all he can to destroy it. In damaging Israel Obama gets a twofer.

GaltBlvnAtty on February 16, 2011 at 8:34 PM

201 darthstar  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:42:55pm

Witchita - a shitty place to have a uterus.

202 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:43:04pm

re: #199 freetoken

An Alabama R woman just started in on Planned Parenthood, and she just referenced the phoney vidoes!!!

She's actually citing the fraudulent videos!!

Martha Roby, for a guess.

203 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:43:14pm

re: #194 wozzablog

Which is absolutely freaking stupid as the UK has Eurofighter.

It's intended as a carrier fighter over there. The F-35, that is.

204 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:43:19pm

"Planned Parenthood is demeaning to women.."

Yes, she really said that.

205 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:43:38pm

re: #202 Decatur Deb

Martha Roby, for a guess.

Yeah, I think that's her.

206 darthstar  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:43:44pm

re: #188 wozzablog

GE with ROlls Royce.

Call me when Briggs & Stratton get a defense contract.

207 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:44:03pm

Live-blogging the theocracy...

208 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:45:04pm

re: #206 darthstar

Call me when Briggs & Stratton get a defense contract.

Youtube Video
209 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:45:23pm

re: #205 freetoken

Yeah, I think that's her.

She's the TP that defeated my Blue Dog rep. I'm so sad a little Dem.

210 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:46:03pm

re: #209 Decatur Deb

She seems like quite the wingnut.

211 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:46:48pm

re: #203 Dark_Falcon

It's intended as a carrier fighter over there. The F-35, that is.

The carriers are over budget and off schedule.

It's nuts. It can be done cheaper and faster with existing aircraft.

212 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:48:01pm

re: #209 Decatur Deb

She's the TP that defeated my Blue Dog rep. I'm so sad a little Dem.

The Blue Dogs got put to sleep. They really didn't have a chance, given what their party wanted to pass.

213 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:48:28pm

re: #211 wozzablog

The carriers are over budget and off schedule.

It's nuts. It can be done cheaper and faster with existing aircraft.

But the UK still needs the carriers.

214 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:48:51pm

BBIAB

215 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:49:08pm

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

But the UK still needs the carriers.

I need a few as well.
For...uh...duck hunting.
Yeah.

216 darthstar  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:49:28pm

If a gigantic meteor destroys the earth tomorrow, I can at least say that I don't live in Witchita.

217 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:50:41pm

re: #211 wozzablog

The entirity of UK Defence planning & spending has been a mess for well over a decade.

Eurofighter Typhoon has been one cockup after another, the carriers have been a balls up, the F35 isn't ready, a series of duff rifles - not to mention trident replacement - it's been a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

The UK is not prepared to go for a single tried and tested off the shelf product when ballsing fuckloads of money into a bottomless black pit will do just as good a job of supporting our missions overseas.

218 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:50:49pm

re: #197 Varek Raith

Give that man or woman a medal for that flow chart.
A feat of tremendous achievement.
:)

Like all Powerpoints, it's vastly oversimplified.

219 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:51:32pm

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

But the UK still needs the carriers.

Even more reason to bring in aircraft that are ontime and on budget.

220 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:51:45pm

re: #218 Decatur Deb

Like all Powerpoints, it's vastly oversimplified.

I can't even imagine who that presentation went down.
XD

221 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:52:10pm

re: #220 Varek Raith

I can't even imagine how that presentation went down.
XD

222 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:53:50pm

Hehe, some (R) from NH just offered an amendment to add 50 million to the budget for heating for low income. His own party in attendance didn't want to oppose it.

Now Markey has risen with his amendment, to just eliminate the subsidies to oil companies (billions of dollars) and instead reinstate the full funding for the heating budget.

The Markey amendment is pure politics (it's out of order as it attempts to change the law and not just changed funding.) Yet this will be the platform the Dems use against the Republicans. In Markey's words "Republicans want a free lunch for BP instead of lunches for poor children."

223 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:56:24pm

re: #221 Varek Raith

Acquisition is not for sissies.

224 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:57:05pm

re: #223 Decatur Deb

Acquisition is not for sissies.

Evidently.
:)

225 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:57:46pm

Markey really going at it, trying to restore the funding cut from the NIH.

226 Kruk  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:00:32pm

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

But the UK still needs the carriers.

I understand the first of the new carriers is going to be helicopters only, and it'll go into mothballs as soon as the second is ready. The second is going to be fitted with catapaults so conventional carrier based fighters from other nations, including France, can fly off it. (Somewhere, Nelson is spinning in his grave). Either way, it seriously reduces the value of a STOL JSF.

227 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:00:42pm

the Swedes have consistently built very good short take off and landing aircraft which are phoenominally sturdy and have wonderfully adaptable airframes - and they do it with a fraction of the budget.

It's a joke and it will continue to remain a joke, imho.

228 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:01:50pm

re: #226 Kruk

I understand the first of the new carriers is going to be helicopters only, and it'll go into mothballs as soon as the second is ready. The second is going to be fitted with catapaults so conventional carrier based fighters from other nations, including France, can fly off it. (Somewhere, Nelson is spinning in his grave). Either way, it seriously reduces the value of a STOL JSF.

Like i said - a galloping fucking joke of epic proportions.

229 JAFO  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:01:58pm

Ha, ha, ha. I've been Listening to Rachel Maddow on my phone headset, as I read this thread. Everything in her broadcast paced the discussion in here from Kansas to F-35 and defense budget.

230 brookly red  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:02:07pm

re: #216 darthstar

If a gigantic meteor destroys the earth tomorrow, I can at least say that I don't live in Witchita.

but who would hear it...

231 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:03:01pm

G'night all.

Am going to smash some zombies or something.

232 palomino  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:03:08pm

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

Troubled economic times. Until things improve, people will regard gold as a useful hedge.

Indeed gold should be a small part of any diversified portfolio. But the suggestion that it's the key to our economic troubles is irresponsible, whether it comes from Beck, Paul, Alex Jones, whoever. The fears of 1920's style German hyperinflation have been, well, hyperinflated.

233 palomino  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:07:39pm

re: #89 recusancy

Paul Ryan is in the Paul camp on this one.
also: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

On most of these issues, the gop has become laughable. For decades they supported Milton Friedman's monetary policy. But when Dems get power and support such policies, suddenly the gop was for it before it was against it. Pure political posturing of the Bill Kristol type. All tactics, no strategy or vision.

234 recusancy  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:08:55pm

re: #233 palomino

On most of these issues, the gop has become laughable. For decades they supported Milton Friedman's monetary policy. But when Dems get power and support such policies, suddenly the gop was for it before it was against it. Pure political posturing of the Bill Kristol type. All tactics, no strategy or vision.

It's funny that you mention Kristol. His dad Irviing stated that he was only for supply side economics because it was good for conservatism.

235 engineer cat  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:11:31pm

re: #232 palomino

Indeed gold should be a small part of any diversified portfolio. But the suggestion that it's the key to our economic troubles is irresponsible, whether it comes from Beck, Paul, Alex Jones, whoever. The fears of 1920's style German hyperinflation have been, well, hyperinflated.

actually, the fed at this point is more worried about the very low inflation, and is taking steps to produce a little more inflation

the inflation scare stories are intended to pump up the current gold bubble, nothing more

236 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:14:10pm

re: #225 freetoken

Markey really going at it, trying to restore the funding cut from the NIH.

That he won't get. He's just play acting for the cameras and reciting talking points. It's a stunt.

237 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:14:12pm

Not sure how much more of this live session I can take... I feel like I need to call Dial A Prayer or something...


☏Welcome to Dial-A-Hope. All lines are busy, but please stand by for the next available prayer assistant. For your preparation and well being we offer music for mediations:

Press 1 for those in California and Oregon:

MP3 Audio

Press 2 for those of a Indian persuasion, or Beatles fans:

MP3 Audio

Press 3 if you are a classical European:

MP3 Audio

Press 4 if you are a Republican:

MP3 Audio

or Press 5 for all others:

MP3 Audio
238 palomino  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:15:20pm

re: #235 engineer dog

actually, the fed at this point is more worried about the very low inflation, and is taking steps to produce a little more inflation

the inflation scare stories are intended to pump up the current gold bubble, nothing more

Which makes the Becks of the world even more risible. They're useful idiots doing the kind of early 2000s crap that got us in trouble in the first place. See Bank of America and their stock manipulation activities.

239 mich-again  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:21:20pm

There is a story in the Gospels in Matthew 2:16 referred to as the "massacre of the innocents" in which Herod sends out soldiers to kill off all the boys age 2 and younger in Bethlehem in an attempt to kill the newborn King that the Magi had spoke of. God sent an angel to warn Joseph to flee for Egypt with Mary and Jesus but he left all the other kids to be slaughtered there. God didn't step in and prevent the mass killing, it was apparently enough to make sure his own son was safe. I'm sure if they had the chance the anti-abortionists in Wichita would admonish God for not doing more to protect the innocents. They might even question his pro-life credentials.

240 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:28:46pm

re: #236 Dark_Falcon

That he won't get. He's just play acting for the cameras and reciting talking points. It's a stunt.

This entire iteration is play-acting. It goes to the Senate, where it dies, with a veto standing by in case that goes wrong. After the drama, and a possible shutdown, they start again, with the adult GOP taking on the TP.

241 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:33:43pm

re: #236 Dark_Falcon

That he won't get. He's just play acting for the cameras and reciting talking points. It's a stunt.

Markey has a very good point - the Tea Partiers want to cut research into Alzheimers, yet finding cure(s) for such, even if incomplete, will save so much more money down the line.

242 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:38:42pm

re: #240 Decatur Deb

This entire iteration is play-acting. It goes to the Senate, where it dies, with a veto standing by in case that goes wrong. After the drama, and a possible shutdown, they start again, with the adult GOP taking on the TP.

The Senate might decide to amend the budget, instead of just killing it.

243 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:39:34pm

re: #242 Dark_Falcon

The Senate might decide to amend the budget, instead of just killing it.

Any such amendment would so change the House bill that the Tea Partiers in the House wouldn't accept it.

244 webevintage  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:46:14pm

re: #204 freetoken

"Planned Parenthood is demeaning to women.."

Yes, she really said that.

I know because low cost pap smears are so demeaning....
/

245 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:56:27pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

Well, it should be cut. The budget has to be reduced and the NEA is a program that can be reduced without excessive pain. On that one, Republicans will get most of what they want.

The problem is that the NEA's role significance is much more cultural than fiscal. It's a bit like being massively in debt, and deciding that instead of selling your boat, giving up your membership at the country club, and not throwing lavish parties every month, you will instead start heroically making coffee at home, rather than buying it at the Starbucks.

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:57:07pm

re: #96 recusancy

Camp? Hoeskstra?

Hoekstra will be, forever, to me, the guy who made the turtle fence speech.

247 Four More Tears  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:57:07pm

Has Rachel Maddow been reading this blog? Yikes.

248 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:57:40pm

re: #100 brookly red

I bought gold years ago when prices were low... sure glad I did. I don't think I will buy a today's rates.

That's how you're supposed to do it.

249 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 6:59:16pm

re: #247 JasonA

Has Rachel Maddow been reading this blog? Yikes.

We are all Rachel Maddow.

250 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:01:51pm

re: #130 WindUpBird

yup

Oh God the NEA! Someone save us from the goliath of the NEA! If I had a dime for every masturbatory exercise about cutting the NEA that the average conservative hack host or grandstanding Republican in congress engages in... the ghost of evil pile of shit Jesse Helms strides high across the landscape of America

Meanwhile, out go billions to abstract military hardware, useless and wasteful in the extreme, not a peep, because hey, guns are sexy! Things that are designed to kill people are sexy! Bragging rights! Chest-thumping! Military culture! Build it bigger and more destructive and more expensive!


I will confess to a deep personal grudge against the NEA, but that's for personal reasons--the craziest substitute teacher ever to grace a classroom at my high school--batshit crazy woman--had an NEA grant.

251 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:03:00pm

re: #247 JasonA

Has Rachel Maddow been reading this blog? Yikes.

I would love it if she opened up an account here... her or Jon Stewart...

252 freetoken  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 7:20:01pm

re: #245 SanFranciscoZionist
It's a bit like being massively in debt, and deciding that instead of selling your boat, giving up your membership at the country club, and not throwing lavish parties every month, you will instead start heroically making coffee at home, rather than buying it at the Starbucks.

That's a good summary of this whole House budget process.

253 dr. luba  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 8:48:57pm

re: #3 brookly red

OK, this is an honest question, not wanting to start up a shitstorm...

re: "... Aid for Women announced that it was training Dr. Mila Means on abortion procedures..." is this (or not) what a doctor would learn in Med. school?

just asking.

Med school? Highly unlikely.

Residency (OB/GYN), probably. Abortion, though, is one of the few things residents can opt out of, and many do, some out of actual ethical concerns, others out of laziness. I did quite a few first trimester terminations, and assisted in one second trimester D&E, as well as managing many second trimester (non surgical) terminations.

But that was a very long time ago, and I've had little need of those skills since (I'm doing OB only), so I've forgotten much of it. Too, times have changed, protocols have changed (we had no RU-486 or similar abortifacients back in the 80s, nor good cervical ripening agents), and working in a stand-alone clinic is different from working in a hospital setting.

A doc taking over at an abortion clinic would need to relearn many skills, develop new ones, learn new protocols, etc. Depending on what she'd been doing previously, there would be a learning curve.

254 Querent  Wed, Feb 16, 2011 11:37:39pm

re: #199 freetoken

An Alabama R woman just started in on Planned Parenthood, and she just referenced the phoney vidoes!!!


She's actually citing the fraudulent videos!!

And i have a THIRD type site for "Moral DERPitude"!

255 leftynyc  Thu, Feb 17, 2011 8:15:30am

re: #54 brookly red

/well don't look for Planned Parenthood centers to open in Cairo anytime soon...

And the republicans in congress are currently working on getting rid of PP here as well. Between the anti-women, anti-gay, pro-religious freaks on both sides, it's getting harder and harder to tell them apart.

256 Ming  Thu, Feb 17, 2011 10:55:58am

The word TERRORISM applies perfectly to what is being done to this poor doctor.

Being sarcastic, I suppose it's time to round up anyone who has similarities with the perpetrators (white Christians, I presume), ship them to Gitmo or Egypt (never mind) or wherever, and torture them. And then lie about the torture.


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