Forensic Experts: It Was Not George Zimmerman Crying for Help

Self-defense claim crumbling
US News • Views: 36,782

Some interesting news on the Trayvon Martin case from the Orlando Sentinel: two experts in forensic voice analysis have analyzed the 911 recordings of someone screaming for help on the night Trayvon Martin was killed, and both concluded that it was not George Zimmerman.

As the Trayvon Martin controversy splinters into a debate about self-defense, a central question remains: Who was heard crying for help on a 911 call in the moments before the teen was shot?

A leading expert in the field of forensic voice identification sought to answer that question by analyzing the recordings for the Orlando Sentinel.

His result: It was not George Zimmerman who called for help.

Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman. Another expert contacted by the Sentinel, utilizing different techniques, came to the same conclusion.

Zimmerman claims self-defense in the shooting and told police he was the one screaming for help. But these experts say the evidence tells a different story. …

Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library’s Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

After the Sentinel contacted Owen, he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman’s voice to the 911 call screams.

“I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else,” Owen says.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman’s voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he’d expect higher than 90 percent.

“As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it’s not Zimmerman,” Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon’s, because he didn’t have a sample of the teen’s voice to compare.

Jump to bottom

788 comments
1 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:03:20pm

Trayvon's relatives need to find some voice recordings if they can.

2 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:08:02pm

I'm mega-skeptical of the software approach as applied to a distant voice that that got through a phone line. Anyway, to get a significant result they also have to compare with Trayvon's voice.

3 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:08:15pm

Maybe some of his friends and relatives have home videos with sound that they can make available.

4 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:10:36pm

So fucking sad.

5 ReamWorks SKG  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:12:24pm

I think it makes no difference who was screaming. The entire situation never had to happen. Zimmerman certainly didn't feel threatened when he first saw Martin.

6 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:13:48pm

At the same time, the press did at least verify that EMS was on-scene that night:

Funeral director says Trayvon's body showed no signs of brawl

On Friday, the Daily News obtained EMS documents suggesting Zimmerman, who an ex-colleague said was fired from a security job for being too aggressive, did not sustain serious injuries in the fatal encounter.

Paperwork detailing the EMS response to the shooting scene shows that a call for a second ambulance was canceled.

An audiotape containing the EMS communications, also obtained by The News on Friday, records unidentified workers discussing the scene.

Zimmerman’s condition is mentioned briefly in the 30-minute recording.

“Do we have a second patient?” a man asks.

“That’s affirmative. We have a second patient,” a woman replies. “The second patient is not a gunshot.”

7 ReamWorks SKG  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:13:50pm

Also it was Roseanne did who tweeted the address of that innocent family.

Here it is on The Smoking Gun

[Link: www.thesmokinggun.com...]

She deleted it very quickly, but she has a LOT of followers.

Now I have to write a letter of apology to Rosie O'Donnell!

8 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:14:14pm

re: #2 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

I'm mega-skeptical of the software approach as applied to a distant voice that that got through a phone line. Anyway, to get a significant result they also have to compare with Trayvon's voice.

Actually, no - I'm familiar with this technique and it's pretty reliable. And if it rules out Zimmerman, there's only one other possibility.

9 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:14:34pm

re: #5 ReamWorks

If it was Martin screaming, it's another lie that Zimmerman told the police about what happened.

10 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:15:44pm

re: #7 ReamWorks

Also, Rosie O'Donnell did tweet the address of that innocent family. TSG has it, as reported here on F*X.

[Link: nation.foxnews.com...]

She deleted it very quickly, but she has a LOT of followers.

Where does your link mention Rosie O'Donnell?

11 ReamWorks SKG  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:17:31pm

re: #10 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

OMG! I'm going to have to apologize to her! I simply got them mixed up. Which one was Betty Rubble again?

12 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:21:48pm

Only whitey gets to go to harvard, that negro he thinks he's better than you

13 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:22:34pm

re: #9 jaunte

If it was Martin screaming, it's another lie that Zimmerman told the police about what happened.

or it's another lie the police told zimmerman to tell :)


coaching!

14 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:22:37pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

I will remain skeptical unless there are peer-reviewed studies that show that it applies to such situations. Or unless he gets a lot of other experts to agree with him. Just because it's used by some forensic experts is not good enough for me, since historically there have been a lot forensic methods that were not really peer-reviewed and were not based on sound science.

Also, with probabilistic techniques one doesn't necessarily exclude the other. If they compare with Trayvon's voice and it also gets a low match, then it's simply a case undecideable by this method.

15 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:23:07pm

re: #11 ReamWorks

OMG! I'm going to have to apologize to her! I simply got them mixed up. Which one was Betty Rubble again?

Is the third strike coming? ;)

16 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:25:08pm

re: #5 ReamWorks

I think it makes no difference who was screaming. The entire situation never had to happen. Zimmerman certainly didn't feel threatened when he first saw Martin.

You are correct in that it never should have come to this.
However, it makes a difference because Zimmerman claimed he was the one screaming for help.

17 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:27:01pm

re: #14 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

I will remain skeptical unless there are peer-reviewed studies that show that it applies to such situations. Or unless he gets a lot of other experts to agree with him. Just because it's used by some forensic experts is not good enough for me, since historically there have been a lot forensic methods that were not really peer-reviewed and were not based on sound science.

Also, with probabilistic techniques one doesn't necessarily exclude the other. If they compare with Trayvon's voice and it also gets a low match, then it's simply a case undecideable by this method.

The article cites two experts who independently came to the same conclusion, using different biometric analysis techniques.

18 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:31:35pm

re: #14 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

By the way, I've read up on biometric voice analysis before, and there's very little doubt that it's an effective and reliable technique for identification.

Here's a Wikipedia article on it: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

19 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:32:27pm

re: #14 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

I will remain skeptical unless there are peer-reviewed studies that show that it applies to such situations. Or unless he gets a lot of other experts to agree with him. Just because it's used by some forensic experts is not good enough for me, since historically there have been a lot forensic methods that were not really peer-reviewed and were not based on sound science.

Also, with probabilistic techniques one doesn't necessarily exclude the other. If they compare with Trayvon's voice and it also gets a low match, then it's simply a case undecideable by this method.

The American Board of Recorded Evidence (of which Owen is Chair Emeritus) is a highly-accredited organization for audio forensic evidence, and has a rigorous certification process.

[Link: www.acfei.com...]

Link is to the American College of Forensic Examiners International, of which the ABRE is a member organization.

20 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:32:45pm

re: #17 Charles Johnson

The article cites two experts who independently came to the same conclusion, using different biometric analysis techniques.

It's still sloppy science without comparing it to trayvon's voice as well. When someone is under stress and fighting their voice is going to be significantly different than their normal speaking voice so I'm not surprised by a 40% match. This also means that Zimmerman, after a fight in which he killed a guy, has the forethought to lie that he was the one calling for help and not Trayvon. It's possible but I think it's a little unlikely. I think this is bad science and poor journalism.

21 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:33:52pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

It's still sloppy science without comparing it to trayvon's voice as well. When someone is under stress and fighting their voice is going to be significantly different than their normal speaking voice so I'm not surprised by a 40% match. This also means that Zimmerman, after a fight in which he killed a guy, has the forethought to lie that he was the one calling for help and not Trayvon. It's possible but I think it's a little unlikely. I think this is bad science and poor journalism.

No, it's not "sloppy science." The technique can be used to exclude individuals, and that's what they did.

22 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:34:04pm

re: #17 Charles Johnson

The article cites two experts who independently came to the same conclusion, using different biometric analysis techniques.

No, the second expert is explicitly described as not using any biometric technique:

Not all experts rely on biometrics. Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, is not a believer in the technology's use in courtroom settings.

He relies instead on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience. After listening closely to the 911 tape on which the screams are heard, Primeau also has a strong opinion.

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

So basically he gave his subjective opinion. Not convincing.

23 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:35:26pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

OK, in such a case he should analyze Trayvon's voice too and get some other experts to agree with him.

24 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:36:09pm

re: #22 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

I stand corrected - the second expert didn't use biometric techniques. But these are people who are very well-trained in this kind of analysis, and I don't think it's appropriate to just brush off their opinions.

25 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:36:46pm

This death HAS to be played out in the press, because otherwise it would have been swept away bad cops and all. Why people are upset that this is happening and questioning every instance? Because, as always, they are safe in their lives, they've got theirs. No empathy at all.

26 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:38:59pm

Found this link on the main page of the ABRE:
[Link: www.abreboard.us...]

It's an article on what goes into the methodology of audio forensics.

[Link: trueaudioforensics.blogspot.com...]

27 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:39:18pm

Pretend this is post #110.

or

Save for later,

but I want to post before I forget

28 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:39:57pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson

I'm not brushing the first expert off entirely. I'm just skeptical and want more input from the other experts, as well as a more complete test. One expert can be wrong, several - unlikely, especially if the voice matches well with Trayvon's.

The second one just gives his opinion on what a young man may or may not sound like - and I suspect Zimmerman might shout like Cartman if Trayvon really hit him.

Youtube Video
29 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:40:05pm

‎"We cannot change anything until we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses."--Carl Jung

30 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:40:15pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson

I stand corrected - the second expert didn't use biometric techniques. But these are people who are very well-trained in this kind of analysis, and I don't think it's appropriate to just brush off their opinions.

Looks like he has a lot on the line. He was the one who analyzed the 40 year old Kent State tapes and heard the explicit "prepare to fire" order.

oops forgot the link

[Link: www.owlinvestigations.com...]

31 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:40:39pm

re: #25 Hoodies for Justice. T

This death HAS to be played out in the press, because otherwise it would have been swept away bad cops and all. Why people are upset that this is happening and questioning every instance? Because, as always, they are safe in their lives, they've got theirs. No empathy at all.

The case wasn't even being treated seriously until the press got a hold of it and ran. It's hard to know how much of what we've seen reported since last week would have ever seen the light of day had the media not gotten involved.

32 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:40:44pm

re: #19 RadicalModerate

The American Board of Recorded Evidence (of which Owen is Chair Emeritus) is a highly-accredited organization for audio forensic evidence, and has a rigorous certification process.

[Link: www.acfei.com...]

Link is to the American College of Forensic Examiners International, of which the ABRE is a member organization.

Exactly - this is not just some random idiot using quack techniques. It's a recognized and scientifically valid technique for identifying OR excluding individuals.

33 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:40:47pm

More Florida vigilante news:
On Florida's stand-your-ground law

According to news reports, Brandon was driving erratically when Browning, an off-duty security guard (read: wanna-be cop, vigilante, just like Zimmerman) chased after him, presumably to write down his license plate. With the vigilante tailgating him, Brandon pulled over (within sight of the safety of his home, actually on the side road leading to the apartment complex where he lived) and went to confront Browning (who for some reason had also stopped his car. Why? If all he wanted was to get a license plate, why couldn't he just get it and leave?) and was soon joined by his brother Chris, who had been driving behind them the whole time, with Amy in the passenger seat. Instead of just leaving, seeing how he had no business there whatsoever, Browning pepper-sprayed the twins, and then pulled a weapon he was licensed to carry (just like Zimmerman) and shot Brandon, killing him.

34 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:43:36pm

Just wait. During the trial the lines of evidence (voice analysis and witnesses) will converge on the conclusion that it wasn't Zimmerman screaming for help.

re: #25 Hoodies for Justice. T

This death HAS to be played out in the press, because otherwise it would have been swept away bad cops and all. Why people are upset that this is happening and questioning every instance? Because, as always, they are safe in their lives, they've got theirs. No empathy at all.

You mean like this case?

[Link: www.democracynow.org...]

35 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:44:12pm

re: #30 blueraven

Looks like he has a lot on the line. He was the one who analyzed the 40 year old Kent State tapes and heard the explicit "prepare to fire" order.

Is this result suspect?

36 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:47:02pm

re: #34 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter

Just wait. During the trial the lines of evidence (voice analysis and witnesses) will converge on the conclusion that it wasn't Zimmerman screaming for help.

You mean like this case?

[Link: www.democracynow.org...]

Read that earlier. Omg, the horror.

37 krypto  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:47:39pm

This is all very interesting, but the bottom line is that none of us know what actually happened. The police authorities, as it turns out, really are investigating it despite all the initial accusations about a police cover-up. Zimmerman it appears was not arrested simply because the law that the NRA had pushed through which affected how they have to proceed.

Excuse me for not joining the masses arguing for Zimmerman's presumed total guilt, but I'm in favor of just letting the police do their job and letting a grand jury, and then a regular jury if appropriate, decide what the evidence shows and doesn't show.

38 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:48:42pm

re: #36 Hoodies for Justice. T

Read that earlier. Omg, the horror.

Absolutely no empathy. I see this as our biggest prob. See it every day.

39 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:49:30pm

re: #37 krypto

This is all very interesting, but the bottom line is that none of us know what actually happened. The police authorities, as it turns out, really are investigating it despite all the initial accusations about a police cover-up. Zimmerman it appears was not arrested simply because the law that the NRA had pushed through which affected how they have to proceed.

Excuse me for not joining the masses arguing for Zimmerman's presumed total guilt, but I'm in favor of just letting the police do their job and letting a grand jury, and then a regular jury if appropriate, decide what the evidence shows and doesn't show.

We already know the official police report is a lie. The released video shows no injuries on Zimmerman.
So, I'm way past giving the Sanford PD the benefit of the doubt.

40 bratwurst  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:49:54pm

re: #7 ReamWorks

Now I have to write a letter of apology to Rosie O'Donnell!

Here's a thought...maybe double check the name next time before you opine that you would love to see someone in jail?

41 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:50:59pm

Reuven, why do you want Rosie in jail? Since you confused her with Roseanne Barr, maybe it's because of something Barr did?

42 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:52:55pm

re: #37 krypto

This is all very interesting, but the bottom line is that none of us know what actually happened. The police authorities, as it turns out, really are investigating it despite all the initial accusations about a police cover-up. Zimmerman it appears was not arrested simply because the law that the NRA had pushed through which affected how they have to proceed.

Excuse me for not joining the masses arguing for Zimmerman's presumed total guilt, but I'm in favor of just letting the police do their job and letting a grand jury, and then a regular jury if appropriate, decide what the evidence shows and doesn't show.

They "really are investigating" now because they've got the governor's office, DoJ, and FBI breathing down their necks. And the special prosecutor named because the state attorney had to be asked to step aside, is essentially rerunning the investigation from square one, from interviewing witnesses to examining forensic evidence.

43 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:55:09pm

re: #35 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Is this result suspect?

I don't know. I think there is a lot of doubt about who said what, and after 40 years that will probably remain the case, but I am not sure if the analysis is suspect.

44 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:55:23pm

re: #42 Targetpractice

They "really are investigating" now because they've got the governor's office, DoJ, and FBI breathing down their necks. And the special prosecutor named because the state attorney had to be asked to step aside, is essentially rerunning the investigation from square one, from interviewing witnesses to examining forensic evidence.

SHIT SHOW. It's been a month.

45 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:56:51pm

re: #44 Hoodies for Justice. T

SHIT SHOW. It's been a month.

And if two witnesses who've come forward are to be believed, the cops didn't even get around to interviewing witnesses until five days after the shooting.

46 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:57:46pm

Reading Tom Owen's interesting interview re: forensic voice analysis: [Link: findarticles.com...]

47 krypto  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:57:50pm

re: #42 Targetpractice

They "really are investigating" now because they've got the governor's office, DoJ, and FBI breathing down their necks. And the special prosecutor named because the state attorney had to be asked to step aside, is essentially rerunning the investigation from square one, from interviewing witnesses to examining forensic evidence.

Sorry I don't agree at all based on what I've seen. The accounts I heard make it clear that some of the police initially wanted to arrest Zimmerman, but state authorities told them they had to proceed differently because of the state law.

48 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:58:04pm

It would be important to have all of the evidence in hand and studied before making these definitive statements. There are police reports, interviews of the witnesses that were actually onsite, and of course the statement by Zimmerman to the police.

This is not evidence. The authorities have the evidence and are studying it. I just hope everyone accept their findings as quickly as they do the rumours and manipulated press reports.

49 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:58:49pm

Imagine, being a victim, well, a dead kid (I'll give you naysayers that -bla) and a month goes by for an investigation? I see so many parallels to the shitty idiot cops of OJ time. How many people are in jail because of shitty, idiot cops.

50 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:59:42pm

re: #45 Targetpractice

And if two witnesses who've come forward are to be believed, the cops didn't even get around to interviewing witnesses until five days after the shooting.

Dead black John doe. Budgets people!

51 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:59:55pm

re: #47 krypto

Sorry I don't agree at all based on what I've seen. The accounts I heard make it clear that some of the police initially wanted to arrest Zimmerman, but state authorities told them they had to proceed differently because of the state law.

So far, only the lead homicide investigator has been shown as wanting to bring charges, and that was for 2 weeks, even while the chief of police was telling the public that all physical evidence and witness testimony received corroborated Zimmerman's story.

52 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:01:00pm

The hoopla surrounding this case shows the outrage of all Americans. I think that is a rather positive thing. With some very well publicized exceptions, this has not been about race, but about the death of a kid by someone who should not have gotten out of his vehicle.

53 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:06:18pm

re: #48 Buck

It would be important to have all of the evidence in hand and studied before making these definitive statements. There are police reports, interviews of the witnesses that were actually onsite, and of course the statement by Zimmerman to the police.

This is not evidence. The authorities have the evidence and are studying it. I just hope everyone accept their findings as quickly as they do the rumours and manipulated press reports.

Historically eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable.

Bad eyewitness identifications contributed to 75 percent of wrongful convictions in cases that were overturned by DNA evidence, according to the Innocence Project.

Calling eye witness memory and the statement of the shooter evidence while discounting audio recordings of the scene as "not evidence" displays a huge cognitive bias towards subjective recollection. Just an FYI. Also the eye witness recollections in this case vary greatly, but one witnesses's assertion that her story was challenged by the police, who corrected her and fed her the shooter's version of events should give you some reserve as to the impartiality and professionalism of the police in this case.

54 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:06:25pm

More proof that facts have a liberal bias!

55 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:09:51pm

re: #48 Buck

It would be important to have all of the evidence in hand and studied before making these definitive statements. There are police reports, interviews of the witnesses that were actually onsite, and of course the statement by Zimmerman to the police.

This is not evidence. The authorities have the evidence and are studying it. I just hope everyone accept their findings as quickly as they do the rumours and manipulated press reports.

Yeah, if done at the time. It's a month later, and only by public outcry.

56 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:12:25pm

If there had not been a public outcry over this, the case would have simply gone away. That's what the Sanford PD tried to do to it. If no charges are handed down within a certain amount of time (I believe it's 20 weeks, but I could be remembering incorrectly), someone like Zimmerman can never be charged for the crime even if new evidence comes out.

57 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:13:28pm

re: #48 Buck

It would be important to have all of the evidence in hand and studied before making these definitive statements. There are police reports, interviews of the witnesses that were actually onsite, and of course the statement by Zimmerman to the police.

This is not evidence. The authorities have the evidence and are studying it. I just hope everyone accept their findings as quickly as they do the rumours and manipulated press reports.

You're right Buck this isn't evidence, these people are expert witnesses who can be called to give testimony at the trial.

58 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:13:38pm

re: #53 goddamnedfrank

I gave a list of actual evidence. You only have to find a problem with one item on that list and therefore dismiss all the evidence.

You don't know if there are independent witnesses who can verify that it was Zimmerman calling for help.

However in my opinion the idea that all of the police involved, the state district lawyers and of course the paramedics on the scene are part of this huge conspiracy to protect George Zimmerman (a person that they never met before and had no reason to want to protect) is a bit of a stretch.

59 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:15:06pm

The worst part, that I think hits home, is only by public outcry is this case given a second glance. Imagine all the ones that didn't. Empathetic peeps only need apply. You others, stay comfy!!

60 darthstar  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:15:15pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

If the police had simply booked Zimmerman on the suspicion that his story was bullshit, and conducted a basic investigation(likely followed by trying Zimmerman for murder), this story would have been at the back of the local section of the newspaper and, while still tragic, never would have become a national stain.

61 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:16:07pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

If there had not been a public outcry over this, the case would have simply gone away. That's what the Sanford PD tried to do to it. If no charges are handed down within a certain amount of time (I believe it's 20 weeks, but I could be remembering incorrectly), someone like Zimmerman can never be charged for the crime even if new evidence comes out.

And that seems to have been the state attorney's intention, as he kept sidelining charges by claiming he needed more evidence. The only other explanation is that SYG applied, and while plausible considering we're not seen any conclusive evidence as to how the scuffle began, there's very little evidence that Zimmerman was in enough danger to warrant lethal force.

62 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:16:45pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

If there had not been a public outcry over this, the case would have simply gone away. That's what the Sanford PD tried to do to it. If no charges are handed down within a certain amount of time (I believe it's 20 weeks, but I could be remembering incorrectly), someone like Zimmerman can never be charged for the crime even if new evidence comes out.

In most jurisdictions, there is no statute of limitations for murder.

63 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:16:50pm

If there hadn't been a public outcry then this case would have been like the one I linked in #34. Swept under the rug by the authorities.

64 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:17:21pm

bbl

65 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:17:43pm

re: #62 Buck

In most jurisdictions, there is no statute of limitations for murder.

What about manslaughter?

66 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:17:58pm

re: #62 Buck

In most jurisdictions, there is no statute of limitations for murder.

Yes, but the longer you go between the crime and the investigation the more likely you are to be too late to find certain pieces of evidence.

67 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:18:14pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

Is it really that simple? I didn't think there was any statute of limitations in the case of homicides.

68 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:18:45pm

re: #58 Buck

I gave a list of actual evidence. You only have to find a problem with one item on that list and therefore dismiss all the evidence.

You don't know if there are independent witnesses who can verify that it was Zimmerman calling for help.

However in my opinion the idea that all of the police involved, the state district lawyers and of course the paramedics on the scene are part of this huge conspiracy to protect George Zimmerman (a person that they never met before and had no reason to want to protect) is a bit of a stretch.

All the more reason that Zimmerman needs to be arrested and tried so that we can have a trial he necessary evidence out in the public's eye.

69 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:20:05pm

re: #68 jamesfirecat

All the more reason that Zimmerman needs to be arrested and tried so that we can have a trial he necessary evidence out in the public's eye.

That is not actually how the system works.

70 Kragar  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:21:06pm

Innocent until proven guilty goes hand in glove with trust but verify.

There was no verification.

71 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:21:53pm

OK, I checked, and under Florida law if a person is not arrested and charged within 175 days, they cannot be charged with manslaughter, which is what the lead investigator recommended.

72 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:22:00pm

re: #60 darthstar

If the police had simply booked Zimmerman on the suspicion that his story was bullshit, and conducted a basic investigation(likely followed by trying Zimmerman for murder), this story would have been at the back of the local section of the newspaper and, while still tragic, never would have become a national stain.

But no, sorry folks, this death represents many. Sorry to finally shine the light.

That's why the "apologists" are just what I thought. Death is ok, if it's not me. Hate squared.

73 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:22:05pm

re: #65 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

What about manslaughter?

I doubt that it is 20 weeks, but maybe.

74 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:22:35pm

FWIW, found this:

[Link: www.afcp-parole.org...]

Because of recent events and as members of the scientific
community working in the field of speech processing, we feel
compelled to publicize our views concerning the possibility
of identifying or authenticating a person from his or her
voice. The need for a clear and common message was indeed
shown by the diversity of information that has been
circulating on this matter in the media and general public over
the past year. In a press release initiated by the AFCP and
further elaborated in collaboration with the SpLC ISCA-SIG,
the two groups herein discuss and present a summary of the
current state of scientific knowledge and technological
development in the field of speaker recognition, in accessible
wording for nonspecialists. Our main conclusion is that,
despite the existence of technological solutions to some
constrained applications, at the present time, there is no
scientific process that enables one to uniquely characterize a
person’s voice or to identify with absolute certainty an
individual from his or her voice.

75 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:23:23pm

re: #69 Buck

That is not actually how the system works.

We've got a guy who we know shot someone, no one debates this, even the guy admits that he shot someone, a pair of forensic evidence have both come to the conclusion that proves the person who did the shooting has already lied about one thing (when he claimed it was his voice calling for help) and we have reason to believe he lied about suffering injuries in a fight with the person he shot....

Buck in you view what more do we need before we can at least arrest this guy and bring him to trial?

76 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:24:26pm

re: #58 Buck

I gave a list of actual evidence. You only have to find a problem with one item on that list and therefore dismiss all the evidence.

You don't know if there are independent witnesses who can verify that it was Zimmerman calling for help.

However in my opinion the idea that all of the police involved, the state district lawyers and of course the paramedics on the scene are part of this huge conspiracy to protect George Zimmerman (a person that they never met before and had no reason to want to protect) is a bit of a stretch.

You DID see the story where Zimmerman is the son of a retired judge, didn't you? It is very much under the realm of possibility that there was a concerted effort by the prosecutor's office (who were the ones who denied issuing the police-requested arrest warrant) to sweep the whole thing under the rug.

77 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:24:42pm

re: #75 jamesfirecat

a pair of forensic evidence have both come to the conclusion that proves the person who did the shooting has already lied about one thing (when he claimed it was his voice calling for help)

It doesn't "prove" anything - yet.

78 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:26:00pm

The public outcry from this case does a couple of things, both hated by the radical right; it gives a sharp example of racism, something the right really wants to deny, and it gives an example of how the removal of regulations, in this case the opening up of gun laws, is detrimental to the safety of the average citizen and in the wrong hands can lead to a type of systemic racism.

79 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:27:03pm

re: #77 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Proof, no. But it does strongly exclude Zimmerman as the shouter.

80 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:27:38pm

re: #75 jamesfirecat

has already lied about one thing (when he claimed it was his voice calling for help)

See? You don't actually know that with any certainty. You might think so, but you don't know it.

Arresting someone just because some supposed expert, who is not under oath and has not been questioned says it was not Zimmermans voice is not following the rule of law.

81 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:27:49pm

re: #77 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

It doesn't "prove" anything - yet.

I look forward to Zimmerman finding two people of equal qualifications who do agree that is his voice.

82 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:27:57pm

re: #78 Bee#

The public outcry from this case does a couple of things, both hated by the radical right; it gives a sharp example of racism, something the right really wants to deny, and it gives an example of how the removal of regulations, in this case the opening up of gun laws, is detrimental to the safety of the average citizen and in the wrong hands can lead to a type of systemic racism.

More importantly, the President appears to be against the stalking and murder of an innocent teenager minding his own business. Therefore they must be for it.

83 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:28:18pm

Omg , we cannot go back in time! It is now, what the fuck of an investigation is left 1 month later?

84 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:28:23pm

re: #80 Buck

See? You don't actually know that with any certainty. You might think so, but you don't know it.

Arresting someone just because some supposed expert, who is not under oath and has not been questioned says it was not Zimmermans voice is not following the rule of law.

Doesn't answer my question Buck.

"Buck in you view what more do we need before we can at least arrest this guy and bring him to trial?"

85 Kragar  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:28:40pm

re: #73 Buck

I doubt that it is 20 weeks, but maybe.

25 weeks/6 months

86 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:28:49pm

re: #79 Charles Johnson

Not until other experts confirm this and Trayvon's voice is examined.

87 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:29:05pm

re: #77 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

It doesn't "prove" anything - yet.

Exactly. There is no absolute proof but a reasonable scientific certainty.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.
"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.

88 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:30:01pm

re: #86 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Not until other experts confirm this and Trayvon's voice is examined.

How many more experts do you want?

89 Kragar  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:30:13pm

re: #88 jamesfirecat

How many more experts do you want?

7

90 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:31:24pm

re: #81 jamesfirecat

I look forward to Zimmerman finding two people of equal qualifications who do agree that is his voice.

He doesn't have to prove his innocence. You really have no clue do you?

91 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:31:32pm

re: #77 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

It doesn't "prove" anything - yet.

I'm skeptical about this as well. I would like to see the results of a test run on Trayvan's voice.

92 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:31:37pm

re: #86 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Not until other experts confirm this and Trayvon's voice is examined.

Sorry, but that's wrong. Biometric voice analysis is often used to exclude individuals who are suspected of crimes. It's perfectly valid to say this excludes Zimmerman if the level of probability was only 48%.

And there's other circumstantial evidence that supports this too. More than one 911 caller has said that they heard screaming for help, then a shot - and the screaming immediately stopped after the shot.

93 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:32:17pm

re: #90 Buck

He doesn't have to prove his innocence. You really have no clue do you?

So why does anyone ever get arrested?

Come on Buck, there has to be a standard set of rules for what justifies someone getting arrested doesn't there?

What would have to happen for Zimmerman to fit that set of rules?

94 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:32:29pm

re: #84 jamesfirecat

Doesn't answer my question Buck.

"Buck in you view what more do we need before we can at least arrest this guy and bring him to trial?"

Funny, but I did answer your question.

You need to see all of the evidence and make an educated decision.

95 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:32:55pm

re: #77 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

It doesn't "prove" anything - yet.

It proves plenty, if one thinks it possible to distinguish between voice characteristics of a 17 year old black boy and a considerably older hispanic man.

96 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:33:04pm

Quote from the forensics expert: "As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman."

That's about as strong a statement as you'll ever get from someone like this.

97 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:33:15pm

re: #48 Buck

It would be important to have all of the evidence in hand and studied before making these definitive statements. There are police reports, interviews of the witnesses that were actually onsite, and of course the statement by Zimmerman to the police.

This is not evidence. The authorities have the evidence and are studying it. I just hope everyone accept their findings as quickly as they do the rumours and manipulated press reports.

I would think an audio recording of the event was the very definition of evidence...

98 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:33:27pm

re: #90 Buck

He doesn't have to prove his innocence. You really have no clue do you?

Not during a trial, he doesn't.

However, we're talking about the lack of an arrest being made and filing of criminal charges here, where reasonable suspicion is the requirement.

Or is it your belief that Trayvon Martin deserved to be shot and killed?

99 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:33:43pm

re: #94 Buck

Funny, but I did answer your question.

You need to see all of the evidence and make an educated decision.

So you have perfect belief in the police to decide if an arrest should be made or not.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt....

100 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:33:51pm

re: #88 jamesfirecat

How many more experts do you want?

So far there has been 1. The other was just giving an opinion that this was a young man's shout. Without examining how Zimmerman shouts that's absolutely neither here, nor there.

1 expert with a probabilistic method is not anything to build your conclusions on.

101 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:33:54pm

For those of you who mentioned a sample of Trayvon's voice:

And now he is gone from his mother forever, only able to stare out at her as a shining face on a cellphone. She has no home videos of Trayvon. She doesn’t even have voicemail messages from him saved. The only way that she could now hear Trayvon’s voice would be to call his phone and listen to his answering message, but she dare not do it. “If I hear his voice, I think I’m going to scream.”

From A Mother’s Grace and Grieving.

102 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:35:21pm

re: #99 jamesfirecat

So you have perfect belief in the police to decide if an arrest should be made or not.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt...

Ya, just like I said earlier:

in my opinion the idea that all of the police involved, the state district lawyers and of course the paramedics on the scene are part of this huge conspiracy to protect George Zimmerman (a person that they never met before and had no reason to want to protect) is a bit of a stretch.

103 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:35:29pm

re: #90 Buck

He doesn't have to prove his innocence. You really have no clue do you?

He doesn't have to do anything Buck. He hasn't been arrested, he hasn't been charged.
Once he is charged then it will be up to the prosecution to establish his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Anyone who shoots an unarmed person that he was stalking should be arrested. period.

104 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:36:23pm

If we're quoting experts, I don't see why these guys won't do:

[Link: www.afcp-parole.org...]

Currently, it is not possible to completely determine whether
the similarity between two recordings is due to the speaker or
to other factors, especially when: (a) the speaker does not
cooperate, (b) there is no control over recording equipment,
(c) recording conditions are not known, (d) one does not
know whether the voice was disguised and, to a lesser extent,
(e) the linguistic content of the message is not controlled.
Caution and judgment must be exercised when applying
speaker recognition techniques, whether human or automatic,
to account for these uncontrolled factors. Under more
constrained or calibrated situations, or as an aid for
investigative purposes, judicious application of these
techniques may be suitable, provided they are not considered
as infallible.
At the present time, there is no scientific process that
enables one to uniquely characterize a person’s voice or to
identify with absolute certainty an individual from his or her
voice.

105 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:36:34pm

re: #101 Gus

For those of you mentioned a sample of Trayvon's voice:

From A Mother’s Grace and Grieving.

Oh grief. And now her duty is to defend her dead son. Crying.

106 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:37:16pm

re: #103 blueraven

that he was stalking

Objection, making statements not in evidence.

107 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:37:48pm

re: #102 Buck

However in my opinion the idea that all of the police involved, the state district lawyers and of course the paramedics on the scene are part of this huge conspiracy to protect George Zimmerman (a person that they never met before and had no reason to want to protect) is a bit of a stretch.

Your adherence to authority has been noted.

108 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:38:00pm

re: #106 Buck

Objection, making statements not in evidence.

No, that is a fact.

109 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:38:03pm

re: #101 Gus

For those of you mentioned a sample of Trayvon's voice:

From A Mother’s Grace and Grieving.

Read it

110 Gepetto  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:38:05pm

re: #83 Hoodies for Justice. T

Omg , we cannot go back in time! It is now, what the fuck of an investigation is left 1 month later?

the coroner's report, and a legitimate analysis of both sets of clothing will go a long way in the investigation of this terrible thing.

111 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:39:22pm

re: #108 blueraven

No, that is a fact.

No it is not. Zimmerman says he was going back to his vehicle. You might not believe him, but it is NOT a fact that he was stalking the victim.

112 Kragar  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:39:46pm

re: #106 Buck

Objection, making statements not in evidence.

What do you call following someone when the police told you dont, when you have a documented history of obsession about the person, in this case blacks?

113 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:41:18pm

re: #106 Buck

Objection, making statements not in evidence.

Overuled.

[Link: www.thefreedictionary.com...]

3. To track prey or quarry.

He expressly told the 911 caller that he was following Treyvon.

The evidence we have enough to say he was following/perusing/stalking Trevyon by his own word.

114 Kragar  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:41:32pm

re: #111 Buck

No it is not. Zimmerman says he was going back to his vehicle. You might not believe him, but it is NOT a fact that he was stalking the victim.

OH, you mean after he obsessively followed the kid.

You have nothing of use to contribute to this conversation.

115 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:41:42pm

re: #111 Buck

No it is not. Zimmerman says he was going back to his vehicle. You might not believe him, but it is NOT a fact that he was stalking the victim.

I'm going to ask again.

In your opinion, was the shooting death of Trayvon Martin a justified act?

116 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:42:00pm

re: #111 Buck

No it is not. Zimmerman says he was going back to his vehicle. You might not believe him, but it is NOT a fact that he was stalking the victim.

911 officer: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah

117 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:42:51pm

re: #114 Kragar

OH, you mean after he obsessively followed the kid.

You have nothing of use to contribute to this conversation.

He never has anything of use to contribute on any day ending in "y".

118 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:42:56pm

re: #112 Kragar

a documented history of obsession about the person, in this case blacks?

Objection, making statements not in evidence. It has not been shown that Zimmerman had an obsession about "blacks".

119 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:43:09pm

re: #116 blueraven

911 officer: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah

////But following and stalking are two completely different things!

120 Achilles Tang  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:43:51pm

re: #111 Buck

No it is not. Zimmerman says he was going back to his vehicle. You might not believe him, but it is NOT a fact that he was stalking the victim.

Why had Zimmerman left his vehicle in the first place, after being told by the police to stay put? As far as stalking is concerned with the SYG law, he moved the ground. One could call that stalking, or one could just call it looking for a confrontation. One certainly cannot call it avoiding confrontation.

121 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:45:04pm

re: #113 jamesfirecat

Overuled.

[Link: www.thefreedictionary.com...]

3. To track prey or quarry.

He expressly told the 911 caller that he was following Treyvon.

The evidence we have enough to say he was following/perusing/stalking Trevyon by his own word.

He says he was heading back to his vehicle when he came into contact with Trevyon. That is not stalking. You simply have no evidence about what took place after the 911 call and before physical contact.

122 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:45:31pm

re: #119 jamesfirecat

///But following and stalking are two completely different things!

George Zimmerman was in pursuit of Trayvon Martin with the sole purpose of making contact with said individual. As it looks now, this isn't a case of two strangers bumping into each other at night.

123 Digital Display  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:45:50pm

This case is going to a Grand Jury.

124 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:46:23pm

re: #121 Buck

He says he was heading back to his vehicle when he came into contact with Trevyon. That is not stalking. You simply have no evidence about what took place after the 911 call and before physical contact.

Neither do you, and Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. But people can be arrested without needing to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt they are guilty.

125 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:46:37pm

re: #119 jamesfirecat

///But following and stalking are two completely different things!

When you follow someone while carrying a gun...stalking

126 darthstar  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:47:22pm

re: #125 blueraven

When you follow someone while carrying a gun...stalking

or hunting.

127 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:47:44pm

re: #121 Buck

How do you explain Zimmerman's claims about having been severely beaten by Trayvon, coupled with the video that doesn't show broken nose, blood stains on clothes, or bleeding lacerations on his head?

128 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:48:38pm

re: #121 Buck

Imagine my surprise to find you taking the standard right wing position.

129 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:48:49pm

re: #121 Buck

He says he was heading back to his vehicle when he came into contact with Trevyon. That is not stalking. You simply have no evidence about what took place after the 911 call and before physical contact.

Image: trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg

130 darthstar  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:48:58pm

re: #127 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

You're not trying to debate reasonably with Buck, are you?

131 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:49:39pm

re: #124 jamesfirecat

Neither do you, and Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. But people can be arrested without needing to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt they are guilty.

Agreed, so now you agree that any statement that he was stalking is not a fact in evidence.

Objection sustained.

132 darthstar  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:50:11pm

re: #129 Gus

Your facts are powerless against the wingnutty logic of Buck. You will fail! BWAHAHAHAHAAA...

133 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:50:26pm

re: #102 Buck

Ya, just like I said earlier:

in my opinion the idea that all of the police involved, the state district lawyers and of course the paramedics on the scene are part of this huge conspiracy to protect George Zimmerman (a person that they never met before and had no reason to want to protect) is a bit of a stretch.

They may not have met George, but I'll bet they know, or know of his retired judge father. The process doesn't have to be a conspiracy to hide evidence, it can be nothing more than ignoring or cherry picking the evidence and being sloppy with the records. Bad work, or not giving a damn will be as effective as any conspiracy.

134 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:50:30pm

re: #128 Charles Johnson

Imagine my surprise to find you taking the standard right wing position.

Adults taking the stand to be able to murder, shoot, unarmed teenagers at their discretion.

Cowards. Villainy.

135 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:50:50pm

re: #128 Charles Johnson

Imagine my surprise to find you taking the standard right wing position.

They've become little more than an organized troll network at this point.

136 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:51:01pm

re: #131 Buck

Agreed, so now you agree that any statement that he was stalking is not a fact in evidence.

Objection sustained.

I don't see how it follows. Even on the supposition that he wasn't stalking him up to the homicide, he was absolutely stalking him before he got out of the car.

137 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:51:16pm

re: #132 darthstar

Your facts are powerless against the wingnutty logic of Buck. You will fail! BWAHAHAHAHAAA...

Trayvon was murdered in the common area correct?

138 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:51:24pm

re: #128 Charles Johnson

Imagine my surprise to find you taking the standard right wing position.

Ya, paint me as someone not willing top take part in this digital mob screaming for an arrest BEFORE the evidence leads to it. Imagine that.

139 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:51:59pm

re: #121 Buck

He says he was heading back to his vehicle when he came into contact with Trevyon. That is not stalking. You simply have no evidence about what took place after the 911 call and before physical contact.

Defendant's testimony is in dispute, as he has claimed injuries that cannot be verified, claims he cried for help when computer analysis has put this in doubt, and has at least two witnesses who state he was atop the victim when the fatal shot was fired.

We await evidence that can verify the defendant's testimony in any significant manner.

140 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:52:25pm

re: #128 Charles Johnson

Imagine my surprise to find you taking the standard right wing position.

Imagine my surprise to find Buck ignoring my question regarding his opinion of the incident.

141 abolitionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:52:59pm

re: #120 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

Why had Zimmerman left his vehicle in the first place, after being told by the police to stay put? [snip]

Not after. Before. GZ exited his vehicle right after saying Shit, he's running.

142 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:52:59pm

re: #138 Buck

Why do you suppose Chief Bill Lee has stepped away from his responsibilities in this investigation?

143 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:53:04pm

re: #138 Buck

Ya, paint me as someone not willing top take part in this digital mob screaming for an arrest BEFORE the evidence leads to it. Imagine that.

What evidence is necessary to cause an arrest?

Oh wait we can't know what evidence the police have.

So if they don't arrest him then they don't have the evidence and if they do then they do, and it doesn't matter in the least what the rest of us have heard /know.

Air tighter than an otter's anus.

144 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:53:26pm

re: #133 Bee#

You bet that all of the police involved, the state district lawyers and of course the paramedics on the scene know about his retired judge father. I would take that bet.

145 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:53:53pm

re: #130 darthstar

You're not trying to debate reasonably with Buck, are you?

OK, I'm a pervert. Sue me.

146 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:54:17pm

George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin while he was 70 feet from his own back door and in the common area.

147 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:54:23pm

re: #142 jaunte

Why do you suppose Chief Bill Lee has stepped away from his responsibilities in this investigation?

Because, as he stated, his presence was overwhelming the investigation.

148 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:54:32pm

re: #138 Buck

Ya, paint me as someone not willing top take part in this digital mob screaming for an arrest BEFORE the evidence leads to it. Imagine that.

You don't think there's enough evidence for an arrest? He shot the kid. He's on record following him while carrying a gun. What the fuck else do you need to convince you that a jury should decide whether he's guilty or not?

149 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:54:38pm

re: #138 Buck

Ya, paint me as someone not willing top take part in this digital mob screaming for an arrest BEFORE the evidence leads to it. Imagine that.

You're actually part of the other digital mob.

150 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:54:51pm

What a shame, that a digital mob should want the police to arrest an acknowledged shooter before the evidence has a chance to disappear.

151 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:55:32pm

re: #147 Buck

Because, as he stated, his presence was overwhelming the investigation.

How could that be so, if he was following proper procedure?

152 Kragar  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:55:37pm

This would be funny if it wasn't so fucking sad and pathetic.

153 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:55:42pm

re: #147 Buck

Because, as he stated, his presence was overwhelming the investigation.

Why would his presence be overwhelming the investigation?

154 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:55:47pm

re: #140 RadicalModerate

Imagine my surprise to find Buck ignoring my question regarding his opinion of the incident.

You know when you have questions being thrown from the entire pack, it is hard to see everyone. I am not avoiding what I didn't see.

155 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:56:07pm

George Zimmerman is a loose cannon that almost was charged with felony assault of a police officer and obstruction of justice back in 2005. He was cut a break or given a second chance. Had he had a felony conviction for this he would not have been able to obtain a CCW and subsequently murder Trayvon Martin.

156 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:56:12pm

Buck, the police investigator wanted to arrest GZ on manslaughter charges until he got overruled. What is it that you know that he didn't know?

157 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:56:19pm

re: #138 Buck

Ya, paint me as someone not willing top take part in this digital mob screaming for an arrest BEFORE the evidence leads to it. Imagine that.

Good G_d man...there was way more than enough evidence to arrest him that very night. Which they should have done. He could have been let out on bail, he should have his day in court. Just like anybody else.

158 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:56:38pm

re: #148 Altar Boy of Darwinism

You don't think there's enough evidence for an arrest? He shot the kid. He's on record following him while carrying a gun. What the fuck else do you need to convince you that a jury should decide whether he's guilty or not?

Unfortunately, in the face of SYG, you'd need to prove that Zimmerman initiated the scuffle. So far, no evidence that has come forward has done more than put this in doubt.

159 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:56:55pm

re: #149 Kronocide

You're actually part of the other digital mob.

Yep, the mob that wants to let the authorities investigate. That's me...

160 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:57:20pm

People who are outraged that GZ is not arrested and want further investigation: the mob.

Nice try, but your alternate reality derp doesn't fly with this crowd.

161 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:57:45pm

Buck and the rightwing media are proof that modern conservatism is simply a virulent reaction to whatever is perceived to be modern liberalism. If they think liberals are for it, then they are against it. The way that these people have bent themselves into knots trying to justify the actions of Zimmerman and the Sanford PD has been like a bizarre social experiment.

162 Artist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:57:49pm

re: #159 Buck

Yep, the mob that wants to let the authorities investigate. That's me...

Yea, and we saw how well that went.

163 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:57:53pm

re: #156 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Buck, the police investigator wanted to arrest GZ on manslaughter charges until he got overruled. What is it that you know that he didn't know?

That happens all the time. The police investigate and the lawyers decide what can be brought to court.

164 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:58:57pm

The Sanford PD was perfectly willing to sweep this under the rug. The white police department saw some dead black kid with a tattoo and wearing a hoodie face down on the ground. Just another black kid. Who cares right? Finish the paperwork and get some coffee and donuts. Had it not been for the outcry this would have been completely ignored by the city, the state and the feds.

165 darthstar  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:59:05pm

re: #137 Gus

Yes, of course...I was just pointing out that you weren't debating someone with a full deck.

166 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:59:10pm

re: #159 Buck

Yep, the mob that wants to let the authorities investigate. That's me...

You're not paying attention or you're spinning. The problem is the authorities didn't investigate.

Where the hell have you been?

167 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:59:24pm

re: #157 blueraven

there was way more than enough evidence to arrest him that very night.

A decision you make without any actual expertise in the law or actually seeing all the evidence.

168 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 5:59:53pm

re: #159 Buck

Yep, the mob that wants to let the authorities investigate. That's me...

Which of us is in favour of blocking the investigation?

The only difference is we want him detained until the investigation has concluded, just as would happen normally when claims of self defence are questionable.

169 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:00:24pm

re: #163 Buck

That happens all the time. The police investigate and the lawyers decide what can be brought to court.

OK, but is the lead investigator Chris Serino part of the mob? And those who agree with the police investigator who has, you know, has seen the evidence first-hand, why are they the part of the mob if he isn't?

170 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:00:32pm

re: #121 Buck

He says he was heading back to his vehicle when he came into contact with Trevyon. That is not stalking. You simply have no evidence about what took place after the 911 call and before physical contact.

Let's believe the shooter!

171 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:00:55pm

re: #168 Bee#

Which of us is in favour of blocking the investigation?

The only difference is we want him detained until the investigation has concluded, just as would happen normally when claims of self defence are questionable.

BTW, it would benefit him too.

172 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:01:06pm

re: #166 Kronocide

The problem is the authorities didn't investigate.

Again, I don't know that. I hear it being screamed by the mob, but so far no one in actual authority and close to the case has said that.

173 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:01:11pm

I don't ever want to be in Buck's mob.

174 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:01:46pm

re: #164 Gus

The Sanford PD was perfectly willing to sweep this under the rug. The white police department saw some dead black kid with a tattoo and wearing a hoodie face down on the ground. Just another black kid. Who cares right? Finish the paperwork and get some coffee and donuts. Had it not been for the outcry this would have been completely ignored by the city, the state and the feds.

Zimmerman and the Sanford PD saw the same thing when they looked at Trayvon: A dead, black criminal and that's why they went easy on him an didn't being charged. The truth is Zimmerman had shot and killed his neighbor's son, with candy in his pocket.

175 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:01:51pm

re: #172 Buck

Again, I don't know that. I hear it being screamed by the mob, but so far no one in actual authority and close to the case has said that.

Yes I fully expect a member of the authority to come forward and admit how the authority has f***ed up this case.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

176 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:02:34pm
177 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:02:42pm

re: #163 Buck

That happens all the time. The police investigate and the lawyers decide what can be brought to court.

No, usually the policemen arrest on suspicions and preliminary evidence. If there is not enough evidence after 48hours (or whatever) to charge with a crime, then the person has to be let out.

178 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:04:09pm

re: #168 Bee#

The only difference is we want him detained until the investigation has concluded,

First of all he was detained (did you see the video of him being brought to the police station with the handcuffs?). You want him arrested.

You can't arrest someone until the investigation has concluded. You have to have enough evidence to charge them with a crime in order to arrest them.

179 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:04:37pm

re: #172 Buck

Again, I don't know that. I hear it being screamed by the mob, but so far no one in actual authority and close to the case has said that.

That's really stupid, this the mob stuff. It may make you feel superior and all, but you're just a member of another mob, one which has rhetorically supported itself with ignorance and pretty specious assumptions.

Not to mention, the mob you despise is one wanting justice, whatever that may be. You've already decided that justice is served, although you admittedly don't know anything about the case.

180 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:04:43pm

re: #175 jamesfirecat

Yes I fully expect a member of the authority to come forward and admit how the authority has f***ed up this case.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

Right, the FBI are now in on the conspiracy.

181 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:05:07pm

Also, calling for arrest is not the same as calling for a conviction - or calling for vigilantism.

A mob calls for vigilantism. We don't. We want a fair trial after an investigation that is untampered by possible loss of evidence due to Zimmerman being free to do whatever he wants.

So how are we a mob?

182 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:05:09pm

re: #161 moderatelyradicalliberal

Buck and the rightwing media are proof that modern conservatism is simply a virulent reaction to whatever is perceived to be modern liberalism. If they think liberals are for it, then they are against it. The way that these people have bent themselves into knots trying to justify the actions of Zimmerman and the Sanford PD has been like a bizarre social experiment.

They're the same people who whine about jails being too criminal friendly, sentences being too short, and incarceration purposed as retribution not rehabilitation. They also usually assume an arrest strongly implies guilt and they don't want Zimmerman to be guilty because he has become the poster boy for CCW and self defence.

183 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:05:41pm

re: #179 Kronocide

You've already decided that justice is served, although you admittedly don't know anything about the case.

Nope, I have not said that anywhere. You made that up.

184 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:06:08pm

It says EVERYTHING who defends gz

185 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:06:24pm

re: #178 Buck

First of all he was detained (did you see the video of him being brought to the police station with the handcuffs?). You want him arrested.

You can't arrest someone until the investigation has concluded. You have to have enough evidence to charge them with a crime in order to arrest them.

No you dont. I think you know that is BS. All you need is probable cause.
Are you saying that all arrests are made only after an investigation has concluded? That is nuts.

186 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:06:27pm

Chief Bill Lee is ducking his responsibility.

187 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:07:05pm

re: #181 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

So how are we a mob?

Because. There's a 50% chance you're in a mob: you either are or you aren't. Buck is just playing the odds.

188 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:07:17pm

re: #180 Buck

Right, the FBI are now in on the conspiracy.

No, just the LEOs as of the time shooting though they've bungled the case so badly there may not be enough evidence left for the FBI to act on. But like I said before Buck you believe that it doesn't matter what any of us on this website know you'll only trust those people in authority, why do you feel the need to restate this fact over and over again with every post?

189 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:07:20pm

re: #173 Kronocide

I don't ever want to be in Buck's mob.

Buck needs to move to Alberta.

190 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:07:31pm

re: #161 moderatelyradicalliberal

Buck and the rightwing media are proof that modern conservatism is simply a virulent reaction to whatever is perceived to be modern liberalism. If they think liberals are for it, then they are against it. The way that these people have bent themselves into knots trying to justify the actions of Zimmerman and the Sanford PD has been like a bizarre social experiment.

There were a few days after the story started to break when it seemed like conservatives would actually not behave like reactionary cavemen. Those days are long gone.

Every single right wing blog, website, and pundit has been wholeheartedly smearing Trayvon Martin and finding excuses to justify George Zimmerman's actions. The latest talking point, which I expect to show up here at LGF any moment, is that "nobody ever talks about the countless black on black crimes."

Yes, all of a sudden, right wingers are terribly concerned about black on black crime. I'd say it's despicable, but it's just standard right wing reactionary behavior to deny any racism at all among their fellow race warriors, and try to turn it around into an indictment of black people.

191 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:08:05pm

re: #181 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Also, calling for arrest is not the same as calling for a conviction - or calling for vigilantism.

A mob calls for vigilantism. We don't. We want a fair trial after an investigation that is untampered by possible loss of evidence due to Zimmerman being free to do whatever he wants.

So how are we a mob?

Calling for arrest, before the evidence calls for an arrest is a call for mob justice.

An arrest is a serious step.

192 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:08:44pm

re: #161 moderatelyradicalliberal

Buck and the rightwing media are proof that modern conservatism is simply a virulent reaction to whatever is perceived to be modern liberalism. If they think liberals are for it, then they are against it. The way that these people have bent themselves into knots trying to justify the actions of Zimmerman and the Sanford PD has been like a bizarre social experiment.

Exactly. The most guilty, tend to crow the loudest.

193 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:09:09pm

re: #191 Buck

No, as has been pointed out, it only needs a probable cause. We happen to believe that there is such a probable cause. You're welcome to disagree, but don't call us a mob if you can't show that we're calling for actions that we know to be unlawful.

194 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:09:41pm

re: #25 Hoodies for Justice. T

This death HAS to be played out in the press, because otherwise it would have been swept away bad cops and all. Why people are upset that this is happening and questioning every instance? Because, as always, they are safe in their lives, they've got theirs. No empathy at all.

It's not simply a lack of empathy, it really isn't. Many people, myself included, are deeply skeptical of having a criminal case play out in the press, due to the American news media's long history of trying to shape opinions and interpretations of cases to fit the interests of media organizations.

Further, with Florida having appointed a special prosecutor many worry that continued press leaks jeopardize the ability of the special prosecutors office to do its job. Those are concerns driven by the interests of justice, not by a lack of empathy.

195 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:09:49pm

re: #191 Buck

Calling for arrest, before the evidence calls for an arrest is a call for mob justice.

An arrest is a serious step.

And we can't judge the evidence beyond how the police use it.

Once again, it does not matter if their is video of Zimmerman shooting Treyvon who is 15 feet away in the back, if the police don't choose to arrest it's because they have evidence we don't.

Air tighter than an otter's anus.

196 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:10:14pm

Arrest: Taking a person into custody.

Probable cause for arrest: The existence of circumstances that would lead a reasonably prudent officer to believe that a person had committed a criminal offense.

197 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:10:36pm

re: #191 Buck

Calling for arrest, before the evidence calls for an arrest is a call for mob justice.

An arrest is a serious step.

Yes it is a serious step.
And arrests (leading to convictions) have been made with far less information than with the evidence that is public knowledge in this case.

198 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:11:23pm

re: #181 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Also, calling for arrest is not the same as calling for a conviction - or calling for vigilantism.

A mob calls for vigilantism. We don't. We want a fair trial after an investigation that is untampered by possible loss of evidence due to Zimmerman being free to do whatever he wants.

So how are we a mob?

Because we don't like vigilantes and what they stand for, whereas Buck's buddies love the idea.

199 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:11:31pm

re: #191 Buck

Calling for arrest, before the evidence calls for an arrest is a call for mob justice.

An arrest is a serious step.

Mob justice is calling for a conviction before all the evidence is in. You're false pretense talking point is not working. You're attempting to diminish people who are rightly outraged and want justice by calling them a mob.

But you won't accept that your in a mob too, one that values this incident as a platform to defend an ideology.

200 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:11:43pm

A dead person admittedly shot by an armed man is probable cause for arrest.

201 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:12:59pm

I'll have to done the Devil's Advocate robes for a sec and note that Buck is right...to a point. Under SYG, you basically have to confirm that a suspect is guilty of a crime before you can even arrest him and begin a serious investigation. So you have to spend time disproving his story, time he has to destroy evidence that you can't collect off him, time to get his story straight, and time for a lawyer to begin muddying the water.

202 Big Joe  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:13:08pm

re: #190 Charles Johnson

They think it's some sort of justification for Treyvon. I think they just had a hard time with the "one of these things is unlike the others" questions on the IQ test in elementary school.

203 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:13:16pm

re: #200 jaunte

A dead person admittedly shot by an armed man is probable cause for arrest.

Mob! How dare you offend Mother Justice.

204 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:13:44pm

re: #190 Charles Johnson

There were a few days after the story started to break when it seemed like conservatives would actually not behave like reactionary cavemen. Those days are long gone.

Every single right wing blog, website, and pundit has been wholeheartedly smearing Trayvon Martin and finding excuses to justify George Zimmerman's actions. The latest talking point, which I expect to show up here at LGF any moment, is that "nobody ever talks about the countless black on black crimes."

Yes, all of a sudden, right wingers are terribly concerned about black on black crime. I'd say it's despicable, but it's just standard right wing reactionary behavior to deny any racism at all among their fellow race warriors, and try to turn it around into an indictment of black people.

Because in their hearts they feel guilt. But their way to handle it is to lie lie and deny. Creatins, my lovely neighbors.!

205 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:13:51pm

You know, when I first began getting disgusted with people like Spencer, Geller, and Robert Stacy McCain, I was actually naive enough to think that if I just focused on the facts of what they were doing and their associations with evil scumbag racists and white supremacists, most of the people I knew in the right wing blogosphere would be convinced.

Man, was I ever wrong about that. Instead, they closed ranks around these people and attacked me like rabid weasels.

It was an eye-opener, and although it was not a comfortable situation, I do thank them for making it very clear that these really were NOT my people at all.

206 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:14:06pm

re: #195 jamesfirecat

Once again, it does not matter if their is video of Zimmerman shooting Treyvon who is 15 feet away in the back, if the police don't choose to arrest it's because they have evidence we don't.

Are you just making shit up?

207 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:14:24pm

An arrest has the aim of bringing the arrestee into the judicial process to answer for an offense.

208 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:14:31pm

re: #201 Targetpractice

I'll have to done the Devil's Advocate robes for a sec and note that Buck is right...to a point. Under SYG, you basically have to confirm that a suspect is guilty of a crime before you can even arrest him and begin a serious investigation. So you have to spend time disproving his story, time he has to destroy evidence that you can't collect off him, time to get his story straight, and time for a lawyer to begin muddying the water.

Hey Buck how do you feel about SYG?

209 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:14:35pm

re: #190 Charles Johnson

There were a few days after the story started to break when it seemed like conservatives would actually not behave like reactionary cavemen. Those days are long gone.

Every single right wing blog, website, and pundit has been wholeheartedly smearing Trayvon Martin and finding excuses to justify George Zimmerman's actions. The latest talking point, which I expect to show up here at LGF any moment, is that "nobody ever talks about the countless black on black crimes."

Yes, all of a sudden, right wingers are terribly concerned about black on black crime. I'd say it's despicable, but it's just standard right wing reactionary behavior to deny any racism at all among their fellow race warriors, and try to turn it around into an indictment of black people.

I was hearing that two weeks ago, when the press began reporting on this story. The general theme was "Why do you care about this black kid and not the thousand others who die every week!? If those aren't important, this isn't important!"

210 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:14:39pm

re: #201 Targetpractice

I'll have to done the Devil's Advocate robes for a sec and note that Buck is right...to a point. Under SYG, you basically have to confirm that a suspect is guilty of a crime before you can even arrest him and begin a serious investigation. So you have to spend time disproving his story, time he has to destroy evidence that you can't collect off him, time to get his story straight, and time for a lawyer to begin muddying the water.

Under this law you cannot actually even detain a person without a probable cause - and he was detained. Again, the lead investigator also thought there was a probable cause. It's meddling from the higher-ups that prevented the arrest. He could be arrested even under SYG.

211 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:14:57pm

re: #200 jaunte

A dead person admittedly shot by an armed man is probable cause for arrest.

There is a very creepy feeling of coverup coming from the police department. Initial lazy assumptions made on their part, I think.

212 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:15:31pm

re: #178 Buck

First of all he was detained (did you see the video of him being brought to the police station with the handcuffs?). You want him arrested.

You can't arrest someone until the investigation has concluded. You have to have enough evidence to charge them with a crime in order to arrest them.

On this point, I would have to say Buck is correct. The law does not allow for Zimmerman to be held in jail without being charged (and that's true in every state). And to charge him prematurely risks having the charges dismissed by a judge.

re: #180 Buck

Right, the FBI are now in on the conspiracy.

That's not what James was saying! He was saying he wants the special prosecutor or the FBI to publicly report on the failures by the Sanford Police Department. It would be better if the special prosecutor fulfilled that request, but its fulfillment is wholly in the interests of justice. The rot in the SPD must be brought to light then purged.

213 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:15:42pm

re: #206 Buck

Are you just making shit up?

No I was using it as an example of evidence that might get leaked to the public.

It isn't likely but it might happen.

If such evidence did get leaked would you then be willing to call that an arrest should take place or would feel that the police/authorities shouldn't face any sort of public pressure whatever choice they make?

214 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:15:51pm

re: #190 Charles Johnson

Typical right wing logic. If you don't complain about all cases then you can't complain about a single specific case.

215 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:16:10pm

re: #210 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Under this law you cannot actually even detain a person without a probable cause - and he was detained. Again, the lead investigator also thought there was a probable cause. It's meddling from the higher-ups that prevented the arrest. He could be arrested even under SYG.

He could be detained, he couldn't be arrested. And he couldn't be detained very long, else a lawyer would have argued that it counted as "criminal prosecution" when the cops had yet to disprove his claim of "self-defense."

216 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:16:26pm

re: #190 Charles Johnson

There were a few days after the story started to break when it seemed like conservatives would actually not behave like reactionary cavemen. Those days are long gone.

Every single right wing blog, website, and pundit has been wholeheartedly smearing Trayvon Martin and finding excuses to justify George Zimmerman's actions. The latest talking point, which I expect to show up here at LGF any moment, is that "nobody ever talks about the countless black on black crimes."

Yes, all of a sudden, right wingers are terribly concerned about black on black crime. I'd say it's despicable, but it's just standard right wing reactionary behavior to deny any racism at all among their fellow race warriors, and try to turn it around into an indictment of black people.

They are full of shit on the black on black crime stuff. They don't care and in those crimes people do go to jail. If you are black and you kill anybody, your ass in going to jail. My cousin was shot and killed last year. His killer was arrested on the scene. He claimed self defense (Texas is a SYG state). He probably was scared as my cousin was high on "wet" at the time. The guy was convicted of manslaughter. SYG didn't help him one bit.

The reason Trayvon's case is a big deal is because the police had the killer, they guy admitted it and let him go. That's the difference. The right is being willfully ignorant about the difference because they can't take the chance of agreeing with liberals. That's all conservatism is today: not agreeing with liberals about anything ever under any circumstances.

217 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:16:43pm

Arrests are often made in the case of exigent circumstances, such as when there is the immediate threat of destruction of evidence.

218 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:17:05pm

re: #191 Buck

Calling for arrest, before the evidence calls for an arrest is a call for mob justice.

An arrest is a serious step.

Where do you get the idea arrests wait for all the evidence to be put together?

219 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:18:12pm

re: #217 jaunte

Arrests are often made in the case of exigent circumstances, such as when there is the immediate threat of destruction of evidence.

In situations like this the police would not 'have all the evidence' before making an arrest.

220 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:18:14pm

re: #205 Charles Johnson

When I objected to the right wing path that the non denominational church I attended was taking, it was clear that I was the one who had to leave.

221 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:18:26pm

re: #194 Dark_Falcon

It's not simply a lack of empathy, it really isn't. Many people, myself included, are deeply skeptical of having a criminal case play out in the press, due to the American news media's long history of trying to shape opinions and interpretations of cases to fit the interests of media organizations.

Further, with Florida having appointed a special prosecutor many worry that continued press leaks jeopardize the ability of the special prosecutors office to do its job. Those are concerns driven by the interests of justice, not by a lack of empathy.

You and others concerns does not change the fact that the cops failed and THAT is why it's in the press. Geeze, blame reporting? It's what saves us when the cops are useless. I want to say bought off, but..

222 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:18:33pm

re: #215 Targetpractice

He could be detained, he couldn't be arrested. And he couldn't be detained very long, else a lawyer would have argued that it counted as "criminal prosecution" when the cops had yet to disprove his claim of "self-defense."

I read this:

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

as saying he could not be even detained. However, IANAL, so I will gladly be corrected by arguments.

223 engineer cat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:19:10pm

re: #191 Buck

Calling for arrest, before the evidence calls for an arrest is a call for mob justice.

An arrest is a serious step.

so buck's kid is walking home from the grocery store. somebody decides that buck's kid is suspicious and calls 911. the police tell him they are coming and STAY IN HIS CAR

but he gets out and follows buck's kid anyway, even though buck's child is now headed away from this person

buck's kid ends up getting shot by this person. this person claims it was in self defense, the police accept that, case closed no investigation or trial

so, you - buck - accept that and say, "well, ok, since you say you SHOT MY CHILD TO DEATH in self defense, i'll accept that, fine, no problem hey, you know just another of those things..."

224 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:19:23pm

Moar Mahbinsky!

225 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:20:17pm

re: #213 jamesfirecat

If such evidence did get leaked would you then be willing to call that an arrest should take place or would feel that the police/authorities shouldn't face any sort of public pressure whatever choice they make?

Of course I would (If such evidence did get leaked). However I think if there was that kind of evidence available it would not need top be leaked. I don't believe, without any evidence to the contrary, that the authorities are covering up a manslaughter.

226 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:20:34pm

re: #222 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

I read this:

as saying he could not be even detained. However, IANAL, so I will gladly be corrected by arguments.

That's the impression I was left with as well, and have been assuming that Zimmerman's time at the station was voluntary, as was the collection of his clothing and his gun. But like a lot of things in this case, we're still running on less than a whole picture of the evening.

227 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:21:35pm

re: #218 Bee#

arrests wait for all the evidence to be put together

I never said that ALL the evidence would have to be put together.

You keep making stuff up.

228 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:21:40pm

re: #200 jaunte

A dead person admittedly shot by an armed man is probable cause for arrest.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. In the last few years Chicago has seen a number of criminals shot after breaking into the homes of citizens who subsequently to defended themselves. In the majority of those cases no arrest was made and the shooting was swiftly classed as self-defense.

229 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:22:09pm

re: #225 Buck

Of course I would (If such evidence did get leaked). However I think if there was that kind of evidence available it would not need top be leaked. I don't believe, without any evidence to the contrary, that the authorities are covering up a manslaughter.

So you believe that there can exist public evidence which calls for pressure to be put on the police to arrest someone.

Then it's just a matter of you and I having different standards of how much evidence is enough, wouldn't you agree?

230 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:22:38pm

re: #226 Targetpractice

I'm not sure being moved there in handcuffs counts as voluntary ;)

Anyway, Buck has a point on *his* view of the evidence. We have a point on *our* view of the evidence. Just because we differ from him does not give him a right to call us a mob.

231 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:22:53pm

re: #228 Dark_Falcon

All in homes, none on 'neutral' ground, right?

232 engineer cat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:23:02pm

A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution

but the fact that zimmerman used "force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031" is not proved since the only evidence is zimmerman's statement

the statement of one person only, especially if an interested party, is not considered evidence according to any legal definition, but technically is defined as "hearsay"

233 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:23:07pm

re: #228 Dark_Falcon

Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. In the last few years Chicago has seen a number of criminals shot after breaking into the homes of citizens who subsequently to defended themselves. In the majority of those cases no arrest was made and the shooting was swiftly classed as self-defense.

A dead person admittedly shot by an armed man IN A PUBLIC PLACE is probable cause for arrest.

234 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:23:24pm

re: #194 Dark_Falcon

It's not simply a lack of empathy, it really isn't. Many people, myself included, are deeply skeptical of having a criminal case play out in the press, due to the American news media's long history of trying to shape opinions and interpretations of cases to fit the interests of media organizations.

Further, with Florida having appointed a special prosecutor many worry that continued press leaks jeopardize the ability of the special prosecutors office to do its job. Those are concerns driven by the interests of justice, not by a lack of empathy.

If the press and the public had not gotten involved, George Zimmerman would have walked away totally scot free. It was OVER as far as the Sanford PD was concerned. There was no investigation. It was just a dead black 17-year old kid, and nobody in a position to do anything about his killing gave a shit. Life had moved on for them.

I'm as cynical as anyone about the media, but in this case they're a very positive force for justice.

235 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:23:54pm

Except for the right wing media, of course. They're repellent.

236 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:24:00pm

re: #214 Bee#

Typical right wing logic. If you don't complain about all cases then you can't complain about a single specific case.

Oh and AL SHARPTON nothing to see.

237 engineer cat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:25:51pm

hearsay, definition:

The report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.

the only account of the words and actions of trayvon martin at the shooting scene that are supposed to be the evidence that the shooting was an act of self defense is the one related to us by zimmerman

therefore, he walks on hearsay alone

238 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:26:04pm

re: #235 Charles Johnson

Except for the right wing media, of course. They're repellent.

Come now, Charles, they're not all bad. They gave us George's "good friend" Joe Oliver. And we know that having a black friend say you can't be a racist is compelling evidence.

///

239 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:26:18pm

re: #216 moderatelyradicalliberal

They are full of shit on the black on black crime stuff. They don't care and in those crimes people do go to jail. If you are black and you kill anybody, your ass in going to jail. My cousin was shot and killed last year. His killer was arrested on the scene. He claimed self defense (Texas is a SYG state). He probably was scared as my cousin was high on "wet" at the time. The guy was convicted of manslaughter. SYG didn't help him one bit.

The reason Trayvon's case is a big deal is because the police had the killer, they guy admitted it and let him go. That's the difference. The right is being willfully ignorant about the difference because they can't take the chance of agreeing with liberals. That's all conservatism is today: not agreeing with liberals about anything ever under any circumstances.

exactly

240 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:26:35pm
I read this:

as saying he could not be even detained. However, IANAL, so I will gladly be corrected by arguments.

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031

I see room right there for a strict hard look at any use of force with a big disparity of force or a investigation when the circumstances are murky.

Seriously with all the reports of the increase in "justified" homicide, one would be able to find a better case than this one to use against SYG, despite the fact it was the signal incident. SYG surely does not apply when it's not self defense but a bigoted stalk, confront and kill.

"Anywhere you have a right to be" and civil immunity have got to go. At home I agree with the idea, but without any special civil immunity.

241 darthstar  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:27:05pm

re: #227 Buck

I never said that ALL the evidence would have to be put together.

You keep making stuff up.

Mousetits.

242 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:27:10pm

re: #221 Hoodies for Justice. T

You and others concerns does not change the fact that the cops failed and THAT is why it's in the press. Geeze, blame reporting? It's what saves us when the cops are useless. I want to say bought off, but..

I agree with you entirely. Press attention was needed to keep this killing from being swept under the carpet.

But now that competent investigators are in place, i would argue the press should take a half-step back and let them work. Keep investigating, but stop looking for leaks.

243 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:27:29pm

re: #180 Buck

Right, the FBI are now in on the conspiracy.

The FBI and DoJ wouldn't be involved if the Sanford PD did their job.

244 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:27:37pm

re: #234 Charles Johnson

If the press and the public had not gotten involved, George Zimmerman would have walked away totally scot free. It was OVER as far as the Sanford PD was concerned. There was no investigation. It was just a dead black 17-year old kid, and nobody in a position to do anything about his killing gave a shit. Life had moved on for them.

I'm as cynical as anyone about the media, but in this case they're a very positive force for justice.

"RING RING RING"

"Hello?"

"Hello, this is officer ..... with the police. We found this cell phone on a dead black youth with no other identification. Your name was the last one dialed, he's Jon Doe right now, can you fill us in on who exactly he was to help us notify his next of kin?"

The above does not take THREE DAYS to do.

245 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:27:53pm

re: #232 engineer cat

A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution

but the fact that zimmerman used "force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031" is not proved since the only evidence is zimmerman's statement

the statement of one person only, especially if an interested party, is not considered evidence according to any legal definition, but technically is defined as "hearsay"

It only means that it's upon the police to show the probable cause. Which, turns out, they thought there was in this case. Also, hearsay is not a statement of one person or an interested party, but an account of some event from other person's words.

246 engineer cat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:27:58pm

re: #228 Dark_Falcon

Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. In the last few years Chicago has seen a number of criminals shot after breaking into the homes of citizens who subsequently to defended themselves. In the majority of those cases no arrest was made and the shooting was swiftly classed as self-defense.

the presence of a strange person in your home with weapons is not hearsay

247 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:29:34pm

re: #223 engineer cat

so buck's kid is walking home from the grocery store. somebody decides that buck's kid is suspicious and calls 911. the police tell him they are coming and STAY IN HIS CAR

but he gets out and follows buck's kid anyway, even though buck's child is now headed away from this person

buck's kid ends up getting shot by this person. this person claims it was in self defense, the police accept that, case closed no investigation or trial

so, you - buck - accept that and say, "well, ok, since you say you SHOT MY CHILD TO DEATH in self defense, i'll accept that, fine, no problem hey, you know just another of those things..."

Empathy. RW has none.

248 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:30:10pm

re: #237 engineer cat

hearsay, definition:

The report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.

the only account of the words and actions of trayvon martin at the shooting scene that are supposed to be the evidence that the shooting was an act of self defense is the one related to us by zimmerman

therefore, he walks on hearsay alone

No, not correct. A first-hand account of someone's words is not hearsay, it's first-hand witness evidence. The content of those words can be hearsay (if those words allegedly describe some event or state of facts).

249 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:30:42pm

re: #244 jamesfirecat

"RING RING RING"

"Hello?"

"Hello, this is officer ... with the police. We found this cell phone on a dead black youth with no other identification. Your name was the last one dialed, he's Jon Doe right now, can you fill us in on who exactly he was to help us notify his next of kin?"

The above does not take THREE DAYS to do.

Right bottom line, wrong method.

I have phone I know belongs to dead person. I go to judge and get a warrant. I use the warrant to get the phone records from the carrier for the name and billing address on the account. I also see if there are other accounts (and the numbers) for the same name and billing address. Now it's "we have an unidentified person who was carrying this phone. Can you come and identify him, please?"

250 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:31:37pm

re: #231 jaunte

All in homes, none on 'neutral' ground, right?

Correct. Illinois does not have a "Stand Your Ground" law, nor does it allow concealed carry (though I hope the latter will be changed in the medium-term future), but "duty to retreat" does not apply within one's own home.

251 engineer cat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:31:54pm

re: #227 Buck

I never said that ALL the evidence would have to be put together.

You keep making stuff up.

so, buck - if your kid was killed by somebody who, with no other witnesses to corroborate his story, said, 'hey, i had to kill your kid, he was threatening me', and there was no further investigation of it -

you would be fine with that??

252 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:32:29pm

re: #237 engineer cat

A neat illustration from wiki:

Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience. When submitted as evidence, such statements are called hearsay evidence. As a legal term, "hearsay" can also have the narrower meaning of the use of such information as evidence to prove the truth of what is asserted. Such use of "hearsay evidence" in court is generally not allowed. This prohibition is called the hearsay rule.
For example, a witness says "Susan told me Tom was in town" as her evidence to the fact that Tom was in town. Since the witness does not offer in this statement the personal knowledge of the fact, this witness statement would be hearsay evidence to the fact that Tom was in town, and not admissible. Only when Susan testifies herself in the current judicial proceeding that she saw Tom in town, that Susan's testimony becomes admissible evidence to the fact that Tom was in town. However, a witness statement "Susan told me Tom was in town" can be admissible as evidence in the case against Susan when she is accused of spreading defamatory rumors about Tom, because now the witness has personal knowledge of the fact that Susan said (i.e., pronounced the defamatory words) "Tom was in town" in the presence of the witness and it is an opposing party’s statement that constitutes a verbal act.[1][2]

253 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:33:31pm

So if you're walking home one night and some guy comes from out of the shadows and gets in your face and starts asking you questions like he's some kind of cop you're supposed to treat him with "respect" and answer all of his question. If not and you get into a fight with said strange/weirdo/all hyped up on Red Bull freaky dude in his 20s and he shoots you? It's your fault. Welcome to gun supremacy Murica. Smells like freedom and liberty don't it?

254 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:33:44pm

An aside: @Liberty_Chick has blocked me again on Twitter, because the questions I was asking her were hitting too close to home.

255 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:34:09pm

re: #249 kirkspencer

Right bottom line, wrong method.

I have phone I know belongs to dead person. I go to judge and get a warrant. I use the warrant to get the phone records from the carrier for the name and billing address on the account. I also see if there are other accounts (and the numbers) for the same name and billing address. Now it's "we have an unidentified person who was carrying this phone. Can you come and identify him, please?"

You also, if you believe that a crime has occurred, go over the call history to determine who was the last person called and for how long. If you find a call on there that happened at or near the time the crime is believed to have occurred, you track the other person down and ask them what they heard.

256 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:34:31pm

re: #249 kirkspencer

Right bottom line, wrong method.

I have phone I know belongs to dead person. I go to judge and get a warrant. I use the warrant to get the phone records from the carrier for the name and billing address on the account. I also see if there are other accounts (and the numbers) for the same name and billing address. Now it's "we have an unidentified person who was carrying this phone. Can you come and identify him, please?"

Fair enough my knowledge of the legal process is limited to all the Phoenix Wright games and having seen both version of 12 angry men....

257 engineer cat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:34:50pm

re: #248 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

No, not correct. A first-hand account of someone's words is not hearsay, it's first-hand witness evidence.

not according to any definition i can find.

an account of another person's words by a witness is always going to be a 'first hand account' from the witness. the definition of this action is, however, hearsay:

hearsay, definition:

The report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.

[Link: www.google.com...]

258 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:35:31pm

re: #240 Daniel Ballard

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031

I see room right there for a strict hard look at any use of force with a big disparity of force or a investigation when the circumstances are murky.

Seriously with all the reports of the increase in "justified" homicide, one would be able to find a better case than this one to use against SYG, despite the fact it was the signal incident. SYG surely does not apply when it's not self defense but a bigoted stalk, confront and kill.

"Anywhere you have a right to be" and civil immunity have got to go. At home I agree with the idea, but without any special civil immunity.

I disagree entirely on the point of civil immunity, in cases where the person shot was engaged in the commission of a forcible felony. If you are trying to rob someone, you do not get to sue because that person struck, tased, or shot you. You were in the wrong from the start, and what wounds you suffered were your own fault.

259 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:35:35pm

re: #191 Buck

Calling for arrest, before the evidence calls for an arrest is a call for mob justice.

An arrest is a serious step.

Um, yes and no. Normally, arrests are made on probable cause. They are serious steps, but the evidence needed does not have to be of sufficient level for charges to be brought.

However, Florida law in this case specifically states that an arrest without subsequent conviction allows the person arrested to bring civil suit against the police to recover any and all expenses caused by the arrest.

260 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:35:46pm

re: #247 Hoodies for Justice. T

Empathy. RW has none.

I happen to recall them mocking Sotomayor for thinking "empathy" was important. Strange to hear them get defensive when people claim that they have none...

261 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:36:00pm

re: #58 Buck

I gave a list of actual evidence. You only have to find a problem with one item on that list and therefore dismiss all the evidence.

This doesn't make sense. Everything you listed as evidence was either eye witness testimony or the word of the shooter (which is just more of the same, but with obvious bias.) I'm not dismissing all the above by noting that eye witness testimony is often unreliable, I'm stating a well documented fact.

Memory is affected by retelling, and we rarely tell a story in a neutral fashion. By tailoring our stories to our listeners, our bias distorts the very formation of memory—even without the introduction of misinformation by a third party. The protections of the judicial system against prosecutors and police "assisting" a witness’ memory may not sufficiently ensure the accuracy of those memories. Even though prosecutors refrain from "refreshing" witness A’s memory by showing her witness B’s testimony, the mere act of telling prosecutors what happened may bias and distort the witness’s memory. Eyewitness testimony, then, is innately suspect.

Anyway, my point is that you have in no way supported your assertion that the eye witness testimony is in any way more weighty as evidence than a recording of the actual incident, made by one of these same witnesses and released by the police.

You don't know if there are independent witnesses who can verify that it was Zimmerman calling for help.

One witness in fact claims it was Zimmerman, and that he was under Martin. Another witness contradicts this, says Zimmerman was on top and that it was too dark to tell who was yelling. When the stories of those on scene are actually in conflict with one another, then an impartial, non subjective recording might be helpful in separating the truth in these recollections from any fabrications, intentional or otherwise, they might contain.

Again, that you chose to state that the recordings released by the police, and the opinions of established audio experts who have examined them are "not evidence" betrays an interesting reliance on subjective recollection. On the other hand if expert opinions of the recordings strongly supported contention that it was Zimmerman calling for help I'm quite sure you would be calling it evidence.

262 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:36:04pm

re: #249 kirkspencer

Right bottom line, wrong method.

I have phone I know belongs to dead person. I go to judge and get a warrant. I use the warrant to get the phone records from the carrier for the name and billing address on the account. I also see if there are other accounts (and the numbers) for the same name and billing address. Now it's "we have an unidentified person who was carrying this phone. Can you come and identify him, please?"

I don't think a reverse lookup of a phone number requires a search warrant by a court in the course of a criminal investigation, but accessing the phone data to get that info might. Detailed records of who was called and from when and what location obviously would, however.

263 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:36:22pm

I should drive to Florida and try that on some big ol' white redneck...

"You there! Stop walking this instant! What are you doing here? Where do you live? Wait here until the police arrive!"

Oh wait. I forgot. You're only "allowed" to do that if it's some black teenager in a hoodie "looking suspicious."

264 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:37:13pm

re: #255 Targetpractice

You also, if you believe that a crime has occurred, go over the call history to determine who was the last person called and for how long. If you find a call on there that happened at or near the time the crime is believed to have occurred, you track the other person down and ask them what they heard.

agree, but you don't use them for identifying the body.

265 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:39:43pm

2010. Black kid. Pensacola, FL. He also "looked suspicious."

[Link: www2.wkrg.com...]

266 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:39:51pm

re: #223 engineer cat

You simply do not know what happened in the time between the 911 call and contact between these two people. There is evidence in this case, police reports, paramedic reports and witnesses. I am not privy to that information, and neither are you. I take the position that the authorities should be the ones to make the decision to arrest and charge Zimmerman. That they will base that decision on all of the evidence they have.

I take the position that it is very unlikely that there is a conspiracy could be put in place to protect Zimmerman. The police who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose. Now if he put that in writing and signed it and was lying he would have to know that the paramedics and the other police on site would have back him up. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, even before they had a chance to know what witnesses would come forward. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, a person they did not know or owe anything to. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman regarding the injury to his nose and the back of his head even though they were taking him in to the police station to be questioned by someone else. Someone else that they must have been sure would also be willing to cover up that lie.

I am out. Sorry I can't stay.

267 engineer cat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:40:20pm

re: #252 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

A neat illustration from wiki:

ok, so then if i shoot somebody, and tell the police that i needed to shoot them because they were telling me that they were about to kill me, that's evidence

but where is it shown that that is sufficient evidence to prove self defense?

268 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:40:24pm

re: #262 RadicalModerate

I don't think a reverse lookup of a phone number requires a search warrant by a court in the course of a criminal investigation, but accessing the phone data to get that info might. Detailed records of who was called and from when and what location obviously would, however.

The problem with reverse lookup on cellphones is that they're usually blocked or in other special license databases. That takes you back into warrant territory.

And to repeat myself again, you don't use reverse lookup or last person dialed for body identification, not unless you have no other options.

269 abolitionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:40:42pm

re: #254 Charles Johnson

An aside: @Liberty_Chick has blocked me again on Twitter, because the questions I was asking her were hitting too close to home.

Apr 1? What time zone is she in, if I may ask?

270 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:40:54pm

Had the roles been reversed and the cops came upon a "neighborhood watch" man by the name of Trayvon Martin they would have shot him to death.

271 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:40:57pm

re: #266 Buck

Look out -- that giant tower of straw men is about to fall over!

272 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:41:04pm

re: #263 Gus

I should drive to Florida and try that on some big ol' white redneck...

"You there! Stop walking this instant! What are you doing here? Where do you live? Wait here until the police arrive!"

Oh wait. I forgot. You're only "allowed" to do that if it's some black teenager in a hoodie "looking suspicious."

911 - What is your emergency?

Me - There is a suspicious white male wearing a hoodie in front of my house.

911 - Lock the doors and wait for the cops.

Me - I got a gun.

PEW!!!

Me - MY FOOT!!!

911 - ... Do you need and EMT?

Me - Yes please.

273 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:41:18pm

re: #254 Charles Johnson

How do you tell when somebody blocks you?

274 engineer cat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:41:38pm

re: #266 Buck

You simply do not know what happened in the time between the 911 call and contact between these two people. There is evidence in this case, police reports, paramedic reports and witnesses. I am not privy to that information, and neither are you. I take the position that the authorities should be the ones to make the decision to arrest and charge Zimmerman. That they will base that decision on all of the evidence they have.

I take the position that it is very unlikely that there is a conspiracy could be put in place to protect Zimmerman. The police who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose. Now if he put that in writing and signed it and was lying he would have to know that the paramedics and the other police on site would have back him up. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, even before they had a chance to know what witnesses would come forward. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, a person they did not know or owe anything to. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman regarding the injury to his nose and the back of his head even though they were taking him in to the police station to be questioned by someone else. Someone else that they must have been sure would also be willing to cover up that lie.

I am out. Sorry I can't stay.

yeah, but my question was what if it was *your* kid???

would you be okay with there being no further action?

275 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:41:52pm

re: #271 Charles Johnson

Look out -- that giant tower of straw men is about to fall over!

NOT THE BEES!

276 Batman  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:41:54pm

If some asshole approached me with a gun, demanding to know what I'm doing out in public, and he isn't a cop, he most certainly would end up with a head injury, whether or not I end up dead.

Whether Martin attacked him makes no difference to me, since the 911 records is enough proof that Zimmerman is the aggressor. He most certainly chased the teenager without any provocation whatsoever. Having a carry license doesn't give you authority over anyone. Besides that, he saw no crimes being committed.

This isn't a case of whether that poor Zimmerman has the right to defend himself. Martin had the right to defend himself from the crazy man with the gun.

277 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:43:06pm

When the police chief takes a powder in the midst of a high-profile case, it's a sign that he's trying to protect his career.

278 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:43:23pm

re: #276 Batman

If some asshole approached me with a gun, demanding to know what I'm doing out in public, and he isn't a cop, he most certainly would end up with a head injury, whether or not I end up dead.

Whether Martin attacked him makes no difference to me, since the 911 records is enough proof that Zimmerman is the aggressor. He most certainly chased the teenager without any provocation whatsoever. Having a carry license doesn't give you authority over anyone. Besides that, he saw no crimes being committed.

This isn't a case of whether that poor Zimmerman has the right to defend himself. Martin had the right to defend himself from the crazy man with the gun.

Yep. Pretty much. I know when I was 17 and I ran into someone like Zimmerman I would have been like "who the fuck are you?"

279 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:43:29pm

re: #276 Batman

If some asshole approached me with a gun, demanding to know what I'm doing out in public, and he isn't a cop, he most certainly would end up with a head injury, whether or not I end up dead.

Not everyone carries around batarangs, Dark Knight.

280 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:44:05pm

re: #266 Buck

You simply do not know what happened in the time between the 911 call and contact between these two people. There is evidence in this case, police reports, paramedic reports and witnesses. I am not privy to that information, and neither are you. I take the position that the authorities should be the ones to make the decision to arrest and charge Zimmerman. That they will base that decision on all of the evidence they have.

I take the position that it is very unlikely that there is a conspiracy could be put in place to protect Zimmerman. The police who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose. Now if he put that in writing and signed it and was lying he would have to know that the paramedics and the other police on site would have back him up. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, even before they had a chance to know what witnesses would come forward. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, a person they did not know or owe anything to. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman regarding the injury to his nose and the back of his head even though they were taking him in to the police station to be questioned by someone else. Someone else that they must have been sure would also be willing to cover up that lie.

I am out. Sorry I can't stay.

Autobots, transform and troll out...

281 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:45:01pm

re: #266 Buck

You simply do not know what happened in the time between the 911 call and contact between these two people. There is evidence in this case, police reports, paramedic reports and witnesses. I am not privy to that information, and neither are you. I take the position that the authorities should be the ones to make the decision to arrest and charge Zimmerman. That they will base that decision on all of the evidence they have.

I take the position that it is very unlikely that there is a conspiracy could be put in place to protect Zimmerman. The police who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose. Now if he put that in writing and signed it and was lying he would have to know that the paramedics and the other police on site would have back him up. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, even before they had a chance to know what witnesses would come forward. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, a person they did not know or owe anything to. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman regarding the injury to his nose and the back of his head even though they were taking him in to the police station to be questioned by someone else. Someone else that they must have been sure would also be willing to cover up that lie.

I am out. Sorry I can't stay.

Youtube Video
282 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:45:31pm

re: #259 kirkspencer

Um, yes and no. Normally, arrests are made on probable cause. They are serious steps, but the evidence needed does not have to be of sufficient level for charges to be brought.

However, Florida law in this case specifically states that an arrest without subsequent conviction allows the person arrested to bring civil suit against the police to recover any and all expenses caused by the arrest.

No, it does not. The provision you refer to allows those sued someone they wounded in self-defense (or the family of a decedent) to recover court costs, lawyer's fees and actual damages such as lost wages:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

Please note the bolded section.

283 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:45:51pm

re: #276 Batman

Yeah, that's fine and good.

You're the goddamned Batman!
/

284 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:46:31pm

re: #258 Dark_Falcon

I disagree entirely on the point of civil immunity, in cases where the person shot was engaged in the commission of a forcible felony. If you are trying to rob someone, you do not get to sue because that person struck, tased, or shot you. You were in the wrong from the start, and what wounds you suffered were your own fault.

I'm not saying the presumption goes the other way. Seriously, find the jury that will rule against me if I shoot a man with a gun in my home. I think the fact that you are still subject to a jury applying the "reasonable force" standard is a good thing. So I don't get to beat a teen ager to an inch of his life over my TV set.

Keep in mind I have a very conservative careful outlook because I'm just being honest about the standard I taught students getting ready to carry guns with CCW. Or have them at home. I don't like auto immunity. I want a reasonable force standard.

285 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:46:55pm

re: #277 jaunte

When the police chief takes a powder in the midst of a high-profile case, it's a sign that he's trying to protect his career.

When the chief of police and the state attorney "step aside," then there's a good chance one or both is in seriously deep shit. At best, they stand a good chance of being dubbed incompetent and asked to resign/retire. At worst, they could have been actively influencing the investigation, which brings into question the possibility of corruption.

286 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:47:02pm

re: #282 Dark_Falcon

No, it does not. The provision you refer to allows those sued someone they wounded in self-defense (or the family of a decedent) to recover court costs, lawyer's fees and actual damages such as lost wages:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

Please note the bolded section.

If Zimmerman walks and then Sue's Treyvon Martin's family successfully I will loose all faith in the Florida Legal system.

287 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:47:18pm

George Zimmerman had no right to do what he did. End of story.

288 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:48:08pm

re: #257 engineer cat

Not, it has to do with the content of the words, i.e., whether they're offered for the truth.

However, this is irrelevant, since the only hearsay in this situation even by your definition would be TM's words, *not* an account of his other actions. So saying that GZ somehow stands on hearsay here is simply not true.

---

[Link: www.lexisnexis.com...]

§ 31.06 Statements Offered for Their Truth [409-15]

If the statement is offered for any purpose other than for its truth, it is not hearsay. This means that the hearsay character of the statement cannot be examined until we know why the proponent is offering the evidence - i.e., its relevancy. In other words, Rule 801 must be read along with Rule 401 (defining relevancy). In addition to Rule 401, Rule 403 plays an important role here.

Courts and commentators have recognized a number of recurring situations where statements are not offered for their truth. These are discussed below. Note, however, this is not an exhaustive list.

[A] To Show Effect on Listener

A statement offered to show its effect on the person who heard the statement is not hearsay - e.g., where the statement is offered to show only knowledge, good faith, or reasonableness.

[B] Verbal Acts

Statements that constitute verbal acts or operative acts are not hearsay because they are not offered for their truth. In other words, the uttering of certain words has independent legal significance under the substantive law – e.g., words of a contract, libel, slander, threats, and the like. Thus, we only care that these words were said, not that they are true.

[C] Verbal Parts of Acts

Verbal parts of acts are closely related to verbal acts. Such statements are offered in evidence only to show that they were made and to explain an otherwise ambiguous act. Most importantly, they must have independent legal significance.

[D] Prior Inconsistent Statements

The common law practice admitted prior inconsistent statements only for impeachment. Under this approach, the prior statement is offered to show the inconsistency between the witness's trial testimony and pretrial statements, rather than to show the truth of the assertions contained in the pretrial statement. In general, the Rules of Evidence maintain this distinction. There is, however, an important exception. See Rule 801(d)(1)(A).

[E] To Circumstantially Prove Declarant’s State of Mind

A person's mental state is often a material issue. If that person makes a statement that manifests her state of mind, the statement is relevant. Frequently, such statements are hearsay, but fall within the exception for presently existing state of mind. Rule 803(3). In other cases, the statement shows the declarant's state of mind only circumstantially. Under an assertion-oriented definition, the statement is not hearsay.

Etc.

Also there are numerous exceptions to the hearsay rule: [Link: criminal.findlaw.com...]

289 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:48:28pm

re: #283 RadicalModerate

Yeah, that's fine and good.

You're the goddamned Batman!
/

Frank Miller's Batman and Robin was awesome in how it was a horrible representation of the character, yet still managed to entertain the hell out of me.

290 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:48:50pm

re: #266 Buck

Oh, and for those keeping track of such things.

Still didn't answer my question whether he thought that Zimmerman's shooting of Martin was justified, even after acknowledging the question.

291 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:49:12pm

re: #280 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Autobots, transform and troll out...

LOL, loves it.

292 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:50:11pm

re: #289 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Frank Miller's Batman and Robin was awesome in how it was a horrible representation of the character, yet still managed to entertain the hell out of me.

Are you dense, are you retarded or something?

293 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:50:31pm

re: #291 Dark_Falcon

Do you live in an SYG state?

294 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:50:47pm

re: #286 jamesfirecat

If Zimmerman walks and then Sue's Treyvon Martin's family successfully I will loose all faith in the Florida Legal system.

He can only do that if the family sues him first. Have they done so?

295 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:51:15pm

re: #292 jamesfirecat

Are you dense, are you retarded or something?

Making Robin survive by living off of rats in the batcave was a particular high point in the hilarity.

296 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:51:24pm

re: #293 Daniel Ballard

Do you live in an SYG state?

re: #250 Dark_Falcon

Correct. Illinois does not have a "Stand Your Ground" law, nor does it allow concealed carry (though I hope the latter will be changed in the medium-term future), but "duty to retreat" does not apply within one's own home.

297 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:52:15pm

re: #290 RadicalModerate

Oh, and for those keeping track of such things.

Still didn't answer my question whether he thought that Zimmerman's shooting of Martin was justified, even after acknowledging the question.

False. I was clear that I didn't have access to any of the evidence to make the decision. I said that multiple times.

298 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:52:48pm

re: #273 Bee#

How do you tell when somebody blocks you?

Go to their Twitter page and click the follow button. Or there are mobile apps that will just tell you that info when you click their profile, e.g. Tweetbot.

In this case, she posted a dramatic goodbye tweet so I didn't even have to do that.

299 Bob Dillon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:52:52pm

re: #276 Batman

I wasn't there. Obviously. But from what I have gathered for me it simply boils down to this. Z man seems to be what is know as "badge heavy". And when he dismounted his vehicle - he sealed his fate.

300 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:53:01pm

re: #297 Buck

False. I was clear that I didn't have access to any of the evidence to make the decision. I said that multiple times.

Don't have access or aren't making an effort to learn the info that is out there?

301 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:54:14pm

re: #296 Dark_Falcon

So Illinois is similar to California. Except in rural counties it's possible to get CCW with "good cause and good character". Which has worked really well. We have few bad incidents, and quite a number of instances where people have defended themselves.

302 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:54:49pm

oh it's buck again, pokevolving into Martyrbuck


gotta catch em all

303 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:55:07pm

re: #293 Daniel Ballard

Do you live in an SYG state?

I think the SYG is SYC.

304 Batman  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:55:12pm

re: #300 jamesfirecat

Don't have access or aren't making an effort to learn the info that is out there?

Clearly, anything that is "out there" is tainted by the awful, biased media.

/

305 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:55:46pm

re: #300 jamesfirecat

Don't have access or aren't making an effort to learn the info that is out there?

It isn't available to me.

James, have you read the actual police report that has been leaked? Actually read the signed police report? I have. Actually read it, not read only the media's interpretation of it.

307 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:58:07pm

re: #234 Charles Johnson

If the press and the public had not gotten involved, George Zimmerman would have walked away totally scot free. It was OVER as far as the Sanford PD was concerned. There was no investigation. It was just a dead black 17-year old kid, and nobody in a position to do anything about his killing gave a shit. Life had moved on for them.

EXACTLY.

The only reason they're even bothering to try and gather evidence or make any sort of case now is because of the shitstorm of bad publicity they've gotten.

Left to their own devices, the Sanford PD would have let George Zimmerman get away with murder because Trayvon Martin was black. Simple as that.

308 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 6:58:27pm

re: #301 Daniel Ballard

So Illinois is similar to California. Except in rural counties it's possible to get CCW with "good cause and good character". Which has worked really well. We have few bad incidents, and quite a number of instances where people have defended themselves.

Frankly I prefer a "Shall Issue" policy for CCW, but that is a decision for individual states to make.

309 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:00:03pm

re: #302 windupbird is in the gravity well

oh it's buck again, pokevolving into Martyrbuck

gotta catch em all

Does collecting them all cause an Evil Power to appear?

/South Park reference

310 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:01:22pm

re: #306 Charles Johnson

Trayvon Martin Police Report - ProPublica

Well that's a partial report only, so clearly not enough for us morelocks to make any sort of conclusions based on!

311 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:01:36pm

re: #306 Charles Johnson

OK, so in that report, by a police officer who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose.

Are you still calling him a liar?

312 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:02:28pm

re: #282 Dark_Falcon

No, it does not. The provision you refer to allows those sued someone they wounded in self-defense (or the family of a decedent) to recover court costs, lawyer's fees and actual damages such as lost wages:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

Please note the bolded section.

Your bolding is improper reading of the law. Break it this way:

- The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
- The court shall award court costs if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
- The court shall award compensation for loss of income if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
- The court shall award all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

313 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:02:31pm

re: #310 jamesfirecat

Well that's a partial report only, so clearly not enough for us morelocks to make any sort of conclusions based on!

Had you read that before Charles posted the link?

314 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:03:01pm

re: #308 Dark_Falcon

Frankly I prefer a "Shall Issue" policy for CCW, but that is a decision for individual states to make.

"Shall issue" is a terrible idea. Unstable gun fetishists like George Zimmerman end up legally able to concealed carry.

I would much rather have a system in place where mandatory, documented time in gun safety classes and on a firing range are required before issuing CCW permits.

If we need specialized classes and time spent learning how to drive a car before we can get a driver's license, we damn sure need it with guns. If you don't know how to properly load, clean, shoot, and maintain your gun, you've got no fucking business with a license to carry.

315 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:03:07pm

re: #311 Buck

OK, so in that report, by a police officer who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose.

Are you still calling him a liar?

The question is not whether was a bit of blood there, which may have been the case, in small amounts. The point is that the level of violence TM allegedly inflicted on GZ is incompatible with what we see on the video, whether there was some blood before that or not.

316 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:03:19pm

re: #311 Buck

OK, so in that report, by a police officer who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose.

Are you still calling him a liar?

Who's blood?

You think along such binary, dumbshit avenues.

317 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:03:29pm

re: #311 Buck

OK, so in that report, by a police officer who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose.

Are you still calling him a liar?

Why is there no sign of the blood on him in the video in the police station? Did the police test to make sure it was Zimmermna's blood at any point?

318 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:04:51pm

re: #316 goddamnedfrank

According to the report, they did not enter Zimmerman's clothing or materials from the medical 'cleanup' into evidence, so it's going to be hard to tell who was bleeding.

319 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:05:08pm

re: #316 goddamnedfrank

Who's blood?

You think along such binary, dumbshit avenues.

the turing test will begin at 3pm sharp, use a no. 2 pencil

320 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:05:23pm

re: #317 jamesfirecat

Why is there no sign of the blood on him in the video in the police station? Did the police test to make sure it was Zimmermna's blood at any point?

Did you read this report before Charles posted the link?

It explains why there was no sign of blood in the video.

321 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:05:26pm

re: #317 jamesfirecat

I'm pretty sure the alleged bleeding nose did belong to GZ ;) However, if there was a small scale, short-term bleeding, that is hardly compatible with the claims of broken nose and the face being beaten on concrete and by fists for a minute.

322 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:05:43pm

re: #318 jaunte

According to the report, they did not enter Zimmerman's clothing or materials from the medical 'cleanup' into evidence, so it's going to be hard to tell who was bleeding.

If I had to take a guess... I'd go with the kid who had just gotten shot over the guy who shows no signs of injury 35 min after the fact....

323 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:05:52pm

re: #228 Dark_Falcon

Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. In the last few years Chicago has seen a number of criminals shot after breaking into the homes of citizens who subsequently to defended themselves. In the majority of those cases no arrest was made and the shooting was swiftly classed as self-defense.

Damn DF, that is apples and oranges. Someone protecting their home and possibly their life against a criminal act has a right to shoot if necessary.

Let's be honest here. There was more than enough probable cause to arrest Zimmerman. Whether there was enough evidence to charge him with a crime at the time is not yet known. Usually the police have at least 48 hrs to charge or release.

324 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:06:14pm

re: #311 Buck

OK, so in that report, by a police officer who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose.

Are you still calling him a liar?

I thought you left?

Anyway, I find I'm curious about the blood having seen the surveillance tape. There are no obvious wounds. I saw no blood on the face, on the back of the head, on the front or back of the jacket. I also saw no grass stains on the jacket.

I find myself wondering who's blood it was.

325 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:07:14pm

re: #318 jaunte

According to the report, they did not enter Zimmerman's clothing or materials from the medical 'cleanup' into evidence

Which report have you read that stated that?

326 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:07:29pm

re: #321 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

I'm pretty sure the alleged bleeding nose did belong to GZ ;) However, if there was a small scale, short-term bleeding, that is hardly compatible with the claims of broken nose and the face being beaten on concrete and by fists for a minute.

If someone was being bounced off the pavement for 60 seconds by a black kid with the Rage Virus, that has a tendency to leave a mark or two, unless Zimmerman is a Rock Lord or something

327 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:07:57pm

re: #325 Buck

Let's bet on it.

328 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:07:59pm

re: #318 jaunte

According to the report, they did not enter Zimmerman's clothing or materials from the medical 'cleanup' into evidence, so it's going to be hard to tell who was bleeding.

That police report is so partial and redacted that it's almost useless. Plenty of other information has gotten out through press requests. There's another article here stating that they did take Zimmerman's clothing.

Sanford police failed to collect key evidence in the case: the clothing of George Zimmerman, the gunman who killed Trayvon.

Not true, police said. They took his clothing as well as Trayvon's and packaged it for crime-lab analysis. A spokeswoman for Special Prosecutor Angela Corey would not disclose Tuesday where the clothing is now, but she wrote in an email that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement "is assisting with the processing of physical evidence."

Typically, evidence from Seminole County crime scenes is analyzed at the FDLE lab in Orlando.

329 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:08:03pm

re: #320 Buck

You're an idiot.

George Zimmerman had supposedly just been in an epic fight to the death, getting his head repeatedly slammed into the concrete and getting his nose broken. That video is less than an hour after Trayvon Martin was dead, and there's not a scratch on Zimmerman. No blood. No ripped or torn clothing. No grass or dirt stains. Nothing that would indicate that he'd been in a fight less than an hour before.

Here's a hint -- if he'd been in the kind of fight he claimed he'd been in, the guy would have been in the ER, not walking around upright of his own volition.

330 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:08:08pm

re: #320 Buck

Did you read this report before Charles posted the link?

It explains why there was no sign of blood in the video.

It doesn't explain its absence just 35 minutes after the incident:

The police security camera video shows Zimmerman exiting a patrol car and entering the Sanford Police Department about 35 minutes after the shooting. Images of Zimmerman's head and face reveal no obvious cuts or gashes, but at one point, a police officer inspects the back of his head. Zimmerman's lawyer, Craig Sonner, told NBC's Today the video supports his client's story because the officer may have been looking at an injury.

331 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:08:14pm

re: #324 kirkspencer

I thought you left?

Anyway, I find I'm curious about the blood having seen the surveillance tape. There are no obvious wounds. I saw no blood on the face, on the back of the head, on the front or back of the jacket. I also saw no grass stains on the jacket.

I find myself wondering who's blood it was.

The officer stated in writing that he observed that Zimmerman was bleeding.

332 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:08:39pm

re: #297 Buck

False. I was clear that I didn't have access to any of the evidence to make the decision. I said that multiple times.

"I don't know" is a fair answer if there is a lack of evidence.

However, there are two extremely compelling pieces of evidence that tell me that this was not a justifiable act - and neither of these is in any dispute whatsoever.

#1. George Zimmerman was armed with a firearm while patrolling as a (according to his claims) neighborhood watch agent.
Neighborhood watch personnel are not supposed to be armed.
#2. After observing Martin, and calling 911, Zimmerman proceeded to follow - contrary to the instructions given to him by the operator - and a confrontation occurred that resulted in Martin's death.

If EITHER of these facts did not happen, Martin would be alive today. Zimmerman instigated the contact, as evidenced by his giving chase (documented on the 911 call).
Zimmerman had a firearm while in pursuit of Martin.

333 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:10:02pm

re: #320 Buck

Did you read this report before Charles posted the link?

It explains why there was no sign of blood in the video.

No I hadn't (always something new to learn) and the "explanation" in there doesn't hold water.

Yes he got first aid, but head wounds bleed like a mother fucker, why didn't he have any sort of bandages in the video or more blood?

Why was his clothing so dry without any sign of stains on them? Do the cops and ambulance drivers do dry cleaning along with first aid?

334 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:10:11pm

re: #329 Lidane

You're an idiot.

George Zimmerman had supposedly just been in an epic fight to the death, getting his head repeatedly slammed into the concrete and getting his nose broken. That video is less than an hour after Trayvon Martin was dead, and there's not a scratch on Zimmerman. No blood. No ripped or torn clothing. No grass or dirt stains. Nothing that would indicate that he'd been in a fight less than an hour before.

Here's a hint -- if he'd been in the kind of fight he claimed he'd been in, the guy would have been in the ER, not walking around upright of his own volition.

And you know this because you did a search on Google that told you so? Or do you have some hidden expertise on this subject on your resume that I don't know about?

335 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:10:43pm

re: #331 Buck

The officer stated in writing that he observed that Zimmerman was bleeding.

Acknowledged, and retract. The question of severity still remains.

In addition to the autopsy of Martin (sealed till the Grand Jury), I guess we have to wait till we can see the SFD report (who gave him first aid. I'm willing to bet there's a report - treatment at a possible crime scene.)

336 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:11:30pm

re: #331 Buck

The officer stated in writing that he observed that Zimmerman was bleeding.

A headwound that stops bleeding a bit more than half an hour after its dealt without needing to be noticeably bandaged?

Pull the other one its go bells on it Buck.

337 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:12:26pm

re: #323 blueraven

Damn DF, that is apples and oranges. Someone protecting their home and possibly their life against a criminal act has a right to shoot if necessary.

Let's be honest here. There was more than enough probable cause to arrest Zimmerman. Whether there was enough evidence to charge him with a crime at the time is not yet known. Usually the police have at least 48 hrs to charge or release.

shooting a guy who has invaded your home is a bit different than


A) following an innocent minor around at night in a vehicle while armed

b)calling 911, who then tell you to STOP FOLLOWING THEM, which you ignore

c) remarking that 'they always get away"

d) and then finally, leaving your vehicle, approaching and shooting the kid dead. Naturally, so he couldn't get away. Because that's what they do! They get away!


OFFICER, THE UPPITY NEGRO I WAS TRACKING LIKE A WHITE-TAILED DEER WITH MY GUN, MY PHONE, AND MY TWO TON ROLLING METAL BOX THROUGH THIS GATED COMMUNITY SOMEHOW ACQUIRED AN INVISIBILITY SERUM AND LEPT ONTO ME LIKE A SPIDER, I HAD TO SHOOT, BUCK SAID SO

338 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:12:47pm

re: #324 kirkspencer

I thought you left?

Anyway, I find I'm curious about the blood having seen the surveillance tape. There are no obvious wounds. I saw no blood on the face, on the back of the head, on the front or back of the jacket. I also saw no grass stains on the jacket.

I find myself wondering who's blood it was.

The Cop saw blood on his nose and head and grass/moisture on the back of his jacket.

What I don't understand is the lack of blood splatter on Zimmerman from Trayvon, something that should be there if Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman.

339 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:13:36pm

re: #334 Buck

And you know this because you did a search on Google that told you so? Or do you have some hidden expertise on this subject on your resume that I don't know about?

I used to manage a bar. I've seen people get cuffed after bar fights that looked worse than Zimmerman does on the video.

Also? Head and scalp injuries bleed like a motherfucker. Anyone who isn't totally clueless knows that. If Zimmerman had been injured even remotely as badly as he claimed, there would be blood all over the place and he would have been dazed, if not unconscious. Nobody walks away from a fight like what he claimed to have had and looks like that less than an hour later, unless you're Wolverine.

340 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:13:42pm

re: #336 jamesfirecat

A headwound that stops bleeding a bit more than half an hour after its dealt without needing to be noticeably bandaged?

Pull the other one its go bells on it Buck.

Oh it needed bandages on it...the very next day. Apparently the medics worked a miracle that night, stopping his bleeding without getting any blood on his clothing and without utilizing anything the way of accepted medical practices. But he goes to the hospital the next day and suddenly appears with a swollen nose and two large bandages.

341 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:13:53pm

re: #311 Buck

OK, so in that report, by a police officer who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose.

Are you still calling him a liar?

When did I call that police officer "a liar," Buck?

342 Bob Dillon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:14:03pm

re: #332 RadicalModerate

My sister was a neighborhood watch captain for about 15 years. I can confirm - no firearms. And no following. Observe, take notes, call in and report. End of story.

343 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:14:10pm

re: #308 Dark_Falcon

You have a point, I was denied as I live in a dense county that chooses to break the law, and pays penalties regularly for wrongfully denied permits.

344 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:14:16pm

re: #333 jamesfirecat

No I hadn't (always something new to learn) and the "explanation" in there doesn't hold water.

Yes he got first aid, but head wounds bleed like a mother fucker, why didn't he have any sort of bandages in the video or more blood?

Why was his clothing so dry without any sign of stains on them? Do the cops and ambulance drivers do dry cleaning along with first aid?

You really have no real expertise on head wounds do you? You ask a bunch of questions. That is good, but pretending that you know the answers beyond any doubt is bad.


You are calling the officer a liar.

345 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:14:19pm

re: #338 Bee#

Trayvon, who was found face down with his hands under him.

346 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:14:30pm

re: #339 Lidane

unless you're Wolverine.

Buck! There's your lifeline! //

347 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:14:34pm

re: #339 Lidane

I used to manage a bar. I've seen people get cuffed after bar fights that looked worse than Zimmerman does on the video.

Also? Head and scalp injuries bleed like a motherfucker. Anyone who isn't totally clueless knows that. If Zimmerman had been injured even remotely as badly as he claimed, there would be blood all over the place and he would have been dazed, if not unconscious. Nobody walks away from a fight like what he claimed to have had and looks like that less than an hour later, unless you're Wolverine.

Has it been proven by the press that Zimmerman is not, in fact, Wolverine?

///

348 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:15:13pm

re: #335 kirkspencer

I guess we have to wait till we can see the SFD report

That is all I have been saying.

349 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:15:19pm

re: #344 Buck

I'll call the Sanford chief of police a liar, too.

350 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:15:25pm

re: #340 Targetpractice

Oh it needed bandages on it...the very next day. Apparently the medics worked a miracle that night, stopping his bleeding without getting any blood on his clothing and without utilizing anything the way of accepted medical practices. But he goes to the hospital the next day and suddenly appears with a swollen nose and two large bandages.

Clearly Treyvon punched Zimmerman so hard it broke the time stream, I think Superboy Prime did that once so there's accepted precident....

351 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:15:28pm

Generally, when you tell police or EMTs that your head has been repeatedly slammed against pavement, there's an ER visit in your immediate future due to concerns about concussion.

Just sayin'.

352 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:15:40pm

re: #344 Buck

You really have no real expertise on head wounds do you? You ask a bunch of questions. That is good, but pretending that you know the answers beyond any doubt is bad.

You are calling the officer a liar.

The cop on the scene is a guy who got in a lot of shit two years ago for failing to arrest a lieutenant's son after he'd been filmed beating on a black homeless man. The arrest didn't come until after the press made a big deal about it.

So yeah, I'd say his handling of the situation comes into question.

353 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:16:03pm

re: #336 jamesfirecat

A headwound that stops bleeding a bit more than half an hour after its dealt without needing to be noticeably bandaged?

Pull the other one its go bells on it Buck.

I fell onto some concrete that was iced over when I was in my 20's. One fall, bonked my head off the pavement. I needed an ER visit and many stitches, still have a faint scar, had issues with balance for a while afterward. Oh, and plenty o blood because head wound.

354 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:16:51pm

re: #351 goddamnedfrank

Generally, when you tell police or EMT's that your head has been repeatedly slammed against pavement, there's an ER visit in your immediate future due to concerns about concussion.

Just sayin'.

they strapped me down and immobilized my neck and everything for my ER visit!

355 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:16:54pm

re: #344 Buck

You really have no real expertise on head wounds do you? You ask a bunch of questions. That is good, but pretending that you know the answers beyond any doubt is bad.

You are calling the officer a liar.

Yeah I am.

Is there something wrong with that in this situation?

The Sanford Police have proven themselves to be either liars or horribly incompitent to the poin that I wouldn't trust their version of events anyway based on how long they left Treyvon be a John Doe for given that they had his cell phone....

356 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:16:54pm

1. It is entirely possible that GZ got a few scratches on his head and his nose bled for a minute. Because that's all that is compatible with the video of him arriving at the station 35 minutes later basically unmolested.

2. These few scratches and a small nose-bleed are not the result we would expect from his head being beaten on concrete and by fists for a minute.

357 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:16:55pm

re: #348 Buck

That is all I have been saying.

No, it isn't.

358 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:17:34pm

re: #351 goddamnedfrank

Generally, when you tell police or EMT's that your head has been repeatedly slammed against pavement, there's an ER visit in your immediate future due to concerns about concussion.

Just sayin'.

I've heard the excuse made that he refused medical care, so they couldn't take him to the hospital. That makes pretty much no sense to me if we believe that his injuries were as severe as his story and his lawyer's statements have made them out to be.

359 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:18:14pm

re: #341 Charles Johnson

When did I call that police officer "a liar," Buck?

When you say that Zimmerman was not injured, and that the video proves it.

The officer states that he saw Zimmerman bleeding from the nose and back of head.

For the record I actually do see a bandage on Zimmerman's nose.

360 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:18:30pm

re: #344 Buck

You really have no real expertise on head wounds do you?

Anyone who's ever watched a single boxing or UFC match knows that a small cut to the temple or eyebrow leads to blood all over the damn place.

Major head trauma caused by being slammed into the concrete repeatedly would be an automatic trip to the ER. Period.

361 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:18:32pm

re: #344 Buck

You really have no real expertise on head wounds do you? You ask a bunch of questions. That is good, but pretending that you know the answers beyond any doubt is bad.

You are calling the officer a liar.

I'm guessing I have more experience treating head wounds than you


and yeah, the officer is a liar. Also, the sky is blue, and the earth revolves around the sun. Officers lie all the time!

362 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:18:53pm

man, the buck troll job is always a good laugh

363 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:19:01pm

re: #344 Buck

You really have no real expertise on head wounds do you?

Buck, our resident expert on experiencing head wounds.

364 Batman  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:19:15pm

So what if the officer was lying? It's equally possible, or more so given what we know about the incident. As for covering it up, it's more about protecting cops who screwed up. It's happened before. Zimmerman's innocence becomes the cornerstone for a lot of officers keeping their jobs.

365 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:19:29pm

re: #312 kirkspencer

Your bolding is improper reading of the law. Break it this way:

- The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
- The court shall award court costs if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
- The court shall award compensation for loss of income if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
- The court shall award all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

What leads you to believe that?

366 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:19:33pm

re: #356 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

1. It is entirely possible that GZ got a few scratches on his head and his nose bled for a minute. Because that's all that is compatible with the video of him arriving at the station 35 minutes later basically unmolested.

2. These few scratches and a small nose-bleed are not the result we would expect from his head being beaten on concrete and by fists for a minute.

Think that more plausible, that he did have injuries, but that they were not in any way consistent with his story. I know if I ran into a guy who stated he'd been beaten within an inch of his life, yet he looked perfectly fine other than a small cut and a bloody nose, that I'd be compelled to consider him full of shit.

367 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:19:41pm

re: #359 Buck

For the record I actually do see a bandage on Zimmerman's nose.

Quoted for the record. (Of your absurd claims.)

Dude, there's no bandage on Zimmerman's nose in any of the video clips. You're hallucinating.

368 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:20:02pm

re: #363 goddamnedfrank

Buck, our resident expert on experiencing head wounds.

snnneerrrrrrk

369 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:20:25pm

I myself am not big on calling cops habitual liars.

But this outraged "YOU called an OFFICER a LIAR?!?!?!" is funny as heck. Onoz, somebody called a cop a liar!

370 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:20:32pm

re: #366 Targetpractice

Think that more plausible, that he did have injuries, but that they were not in any way consistent with his story. I know if I ran into a guy who stated he'd been beaten within an inch of his life, yet he looked perfectly fine other than a small cut and a bloody nose, that I'd be compelled to consider him full of shit.

who has the biggest motive on earth to lie

371 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:21:01pm

re: #359 Buck

When you say that Zimmerman was not injured, and that the video proves it.

The officer states that he saw Zimmerman bleeding from the nose and back of head.

For the record I actually do see a bandage on Zimmerman's nose.

Take a screen shot and post it here.

372 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:21:21pm

re: #369 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

I myself am not big on calling cops habitual liars.

But this outraged "YOU called an OFFICER a LIAR?!?!?!" is funny as heck. Onoz, somebody called a cop a liar!

Post-911 hero complex.

373 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:21:48pm

re: #370 windupbird is in the gravity well

who has the biggest motive on earth to lie

Indeed. That Zimmerman's version of events are being treated as anything but suspect is still mind boggling to me. Is there some unwritten rule I'm unaware of that says killers become believable once they assert "self-defense"?

374 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:22:03pm

Everyone knows cops never lie. Just ask Abner Louima.

375 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:22:13pm

re: #369 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

I myself am not big on calling cops habitual liars.

But this outraged "YOU called an OFFICER a LIAR?!?!?!" is funny as heck. Onoz, somebody called a cop a liar!

I've just had too much first hand experience with them lying to me, and arresting my friends for no reason


I don't think cops lie any more than the average salesman. :)

376 RadicalModerate  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:22:27pm

re: #367 Charles Johnson

Quoted for the record. (Of your absurd claims.)

Dude, there's no bandage on Zimmerman's nose in any of the video clips. You're hallucinating.

Maybe he knows the Photoshop Expert over at The Daily Caller.

377 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:22:41pm

re: #374 Charles Johnson

Or Joe Campos Torres.

378 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:23:13pm

re: #356 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

1. It is entirely possible that GZ got a few scratches on his head and his nose bled for a minute. Because that's all that is compatible with the video of him arriving at the station 35 minutes later basically unmolested.

2. These few scratches and a small nose-bleed are not the result we would expect from his head being beaten on concrete and by fists for a minute.

His head injuries were from it being pounded against grass. Very little outward damage could occur while still ending up with a concussion. Did the EMTs check him over for a concussion while he was in the cop car?

A broken nose would have bled enough to get on his clothes and the EMTs would have sent him to the hospital to have it set.

Zimmerman's story of having a broken nose and his head banged on concrete doesn't add up.

379 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:23:20pm

re: #344 Buck

You really have no real expertise on head wounds do you? You ask a bunch of questions. That is good, but pretending that you know the answers beyond any doubt is bad.

You are calling the officer a liar.

Good! Given the police department's actions in this case, it is more than fair to call its officers involved in the case liars.

380 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:23:28pm

Sacred cops.

381 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:23:42pm

re: #377 jaunte

Or Adrian Schoolcraft

382 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:24:35pm

re: #377 jaunte

Or Joe Campos Torres.

LAPD Ramparts
Serpico
Knapp Commision
MOVE

383 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:24:39pm

re: #333 jamesfirecat

No I hadn't (always something new to learn) and the "explanation" in there doesn't hold water.

And you question that I was not "making an effort to learn the info that is out there". Seems like YOU have not been "making an effort to learn the info that is out there".

Get it? Understand rush to judgement now?

384 Bob Dillon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:26:12pm

re: #299 Bob Dillon

I wasn't there. Obviously. But from what I have gathered for me it simply boils down to this. Z man seems to be what is know as "badge heavy". And when he dismounted his vehicle - he sealed his fate.

Why the local PD chose to dismiss the fact that he dismounted and became the instigator/aggressor at that moment (because M was not in active commission of a felony and Z was not a sworn officer to begin with) is beyond me and seems to be the starting point for where we are. All else is really just smoke and mirrors.

385 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:26:37pm

re: #365 Dark_Falcon

What leads you to believe that?

a) clauses separated by commas within text, if not explanatory, are independent. In other words they are lists of separates, not intermingled.

b) In addition your bolded portion was an incomplete. The full clause is: "all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff". This is redundant to court costs and attorney fees reinforcing that they are separate.

387 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:26:51pm

re: #359 Buck

When you say that Zimmerman was not injured, and that the video proves it.

The officer states that he saw Zimmerman bleeding from the nose and back of head.

For the record I actually do see a bandage on Zimmerman's nose.

Take a screencap and show us the bandage on his nose.

388 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:26:56pm

re: #382 Gus

LAPD Ramparts
Serpico
Knapp Commision
MOVE

Youtube Video
389 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:27:20pm

re: #380 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Sacred cops.

So much for liberty and all that aye? Bow before the infallible authority! The men in uniform and of the cloth! Here I thought that was the antithesis of the American ideal.

But wait! There's more! Even if you're just critical uttering one word or acknowledging the occasional failing can only mean one thing! You're clearly a radical leftist that hates cops and in the end hates Murica!

390 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:27:31pm

re: #383 Buck

And you question that I was not "making an effort to learn the info that is out there". Seems like YOU have not been "making an effort to learn the info that is out there".

Get it? Understand rush to judgement now?

Nope.

Calling to arrest and try someone who shot someone else in a public place and admits it will never be a rush to judgement for me sorry Buck we're just opperating on different moral systems.

So how about a picture of Zimmerman with his nose in a bandage from the video, since we both use the same visual system I'm pretty sure and I didn't seen it, prove me wrong man....

391 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:27:58pm

re: #374 Charles Johnson

Everyone knows cops never lie. Just ask Abner Louima.

I repeat for the sake of clarity:

If he put that in writing and signed it and was lying he would have to know that the paramedics and the other police on site would have back him up.

That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, even before they had a chance to know what witnesses would come forward.

That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, a person they did not know or owe anything to.

That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman regarding the injury to his nose and the back of his head even though they were taking him in to the police station to be questioned by someone else.

Someone else that they must have been sure would also be willing to continue to cover up that lie.

392 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:28:32pm

re: #351 goddamnedfrank

Generally, when you tell police or EMTs that your head has been repeatedly slammed against pavement, there's an ER visit in your immediate future due to concerns about concussion.

Just sayin'.

He walked it off.

393 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:29:23pm

re: #385 kirkspencer

a) clauses separated by commas within text, if not explanatory, are independent. In other words they are lists of separates, not intermingled.

b) In addition your bolded portion was an incomplete. The full clause is: "all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff". This is redundant to court costs and attorney fees reinforcing that they are separate.

I had not heard that before. I'm not sure that's right, but I'll refer it to a couple of lawyers I know and will report back to you once I hear from them.

394 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:29:33pm

re: #344 Buck

You really have no real expertise on head wounds do you? You ask a bunch of questions. That is good, but pretending that you know the answers beyond any doubt is bad.

You are calling the officer a liar.

The officer is a liar. Go to it, dude who welcomes facisim. Willingly.

395 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:29:43pm

re: #389 Gus

The funny thing here is that available evidence doesn't require cops to lie on this point - the cop didn't say the blood was flowing like a river, or something. Again, a few scratches and a weakly bloody nose is compatible with the description. So why this has to be such a big point for Buck?

396 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:29:52pm

re: #392 Altar Boy of Darwinism

He walked it off.

Time Lord, still in his regeneration cycle.

397 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:30:02pm

re: #380 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Sacred cops.

Who are you going to believe, the pure, innocent police officer, or your lying eyes? :)

398 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:30:33pm

re: #393 Dark_Falcon

I had not heard that before. I'm not sure that's right, but I'll refer it to a couple of lawyers I know and will report back to you once I hear from them.

cool, because it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong (grin).

399 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:30:44pm

re: #389 Gus

So much for liberty and all that aye? Bow before the infallible authority! The men in uniform and of the cloth! Here I thought that was the antithesis of the American ideal.

But wait! There's more! Even if you're just critical uttering one word or acknowledging the occasional failing can only mean one thing! You're clearly a radical leftist that hates cops and in the end hates Murica!

Authoritarianism - the Food of the GOPs, and the TeaPartiers.

400 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:31:46pm

re: #395 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

The funny thing here is that available evidence doesn't require cops to lie on this point - the cop didn't say the blood was flowing like a river, or something. Agian, a few scratches and a weakly bloody nose is compatible with the description. So why this has to be such a big point for Buck?

Yep. I should add, for the record, that I don't think the cops were lying either. I have no evidence of such a thing. They're of course just going by the only main witness they have and that was and remain the perpetrator, George Zimmerman. They basically have no choice but to take his word. Clearly he wasn't a victim of a severe assault as the station video shows.

401 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:32:35pm

re: #391 Buck

I repeat for the sake of clarity:

If he put that in writing and signed it and was lying he would have to know that the paramedics and the other police on site would have back him up.

That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, even before they had a chance to know what witnesses would come forward.

That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, a person they did not know or owe anything to.

That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman regarding the injury to his nose and the back of his head even though they were taking him in to the police station to be questioned by someone else.

Someone else that they must have been sure would also be willing to continue to cover up that lie.

Oh, I'm willing to play Devil's Advocate again and point out that he's not necessarily lying, just incompetent. He reported Zimmerman's story as related to him, as well as noted blood on the back of Zimmerman's head and from his nose, but doesn't describe wounds or remark upon blood on the clothing. And he doesn't include anything from the SFD about injuries besides that Zimmerman was cleared by them for transport.

Really, I'm not sure the issue here is a cover-up of lying so much as a cover-up of incompetency mixed with a heaping helping of "Don't Give A Fuck" where it concerns the death of a black teenager.

402 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:33:36pm

OK, requested screen cap:

just a small white spot on his nose in the shape of a bandage.

403 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:34:05pm

re: #401 Targetpractice

Oh, I'm willing to play Devil's Advocate again and point out that he's not necessarily lying, just incompetent. He reported Zimmerman's story as related to him, as well as noted blood on the back of Zimmerman's head and from his nose, but doesn't describe wounds or remark upon blood on the clothing. And he doesn't include anything from the SFD about injuries besides that Zimmerman was cleared by them for transport.

Really, I'm not sure the issue here is a cover-up of lying so much as a cover-up of incompetency mixed with a heaping helping of "Don't Give A Fuck" where it concerns the death of a black teenager.

As I stated earlier, although you did a much better job.

404 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:34:07pm

re: #374 Charles Johnson

Everyone knows cops never lie. Just ask Abner Louima.

See, for example, the DOJ report on the New Orleans PD. (PDF link)

The executive summary alone is just page after page of WTF.

Our review of officer-involved shootings within just the last two years revealed many instances in which NOPD officers used deadly force contrary to NOPD policy or law. Despite the clear policy violations we observed, NOPD has not found that an officer-involved shooting violated policy in at least six years, and NOPD officials we spoke with could recall only one outof-policy finding even before that time.

We found a pattern of unreasonable less lethal force as well. We found that NOPD’s canines were uncontrollable to the point where they repeatedly attacked their own handlers, compelling us to recommend immediate suspension of NOPD’s use of canines to apprehend suspects. We found that officers use force against individuals, including persons in handcuffs, in circumstances that appeared not only unnecessary but deliberately retaliatory. We reviewed instances in which NOPD officers used significant force against mentally ill persons where it appeared that no use of force was justified.

It goes on and on and on. Non-investigation of sex crimes, retaliation against officers who try to play it straight, etc.

405 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:34:58pm

re: #402 Buck

That's your evidence? Heh.

You fail. Again.

406 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:35:30pm

re: #402 Buck

OK, requested screen cap:

just a small white spot on his nose in the shape of a bandage.

Oh brother.

407 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:35:50pm

re: #402 Buck

OK, requested screen cap:

just a small white spot on his nose in the shape of a bandage.

I think it's just his nose glistening.

408 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:35:56pm

re: #395 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Again, a few scratches and a weakly bloody nose is compatible with the description. So why this has to be such a big point for Buck?

Well, not if there was no struggle, as so many are saying. And because so many are saying the video disproves any injury.

409 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:36:08pm

re: #402 Buck

OK, requested screen cap:

just a small white spot on his nose in the shape of a bandage.

Image: 6Evj7.png

410 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:36:24pm

Looks like nose color to me
Image: Fullscreen_capture_31032012_93009zoom_PM.bmp.jpg

411 kirkspencer  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:36:29pm

A point on all these injury arguments.

I'm seeing some connections that aren't really there. It is possible that Zimmerman was punched in the nose, that it bled some and was still bleeding a bit when police got there, but which was NOT the broken nose Zimmerman insisted on calling it. Light bleeding, followed by some pressure, could have been enough. Light bleeding onto the jacket might not be visible.

The same principle applies to the back of the head. A small scratch or scrape doesn't bleed /that/ much. If it was minor enough that by the time SFD dealt with it (say, five to ten minutes after the policeman saw the bleeding) it may have stopped. The cleaning that is part of treatment would have removed the blood.

Right now I'm guessing the policeman didn't like. What's throwing everyone is that Zimmerman exaggerated his wounds.

(and yes, folks, I've seen head wounds. Yes, they bleed. But if they're not severe enough to use stitches they do tend to close with pressure.)

412 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:36:47pm

re: #402 Buck

OK, requested screen cap:

just a small white spot on his nose in the shape of a bandage.

You fail Photography 201 - Lighting People.

413 b_sharp  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:36:57pm

re: #408 Buck

Well, not if there was no struggle, as so many are saying. And because so many are saying the video disproves any injury.

I just have to ask - who said there was no struggle?

414 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:37:03pm

re: #402 Buck

OK, requested screen cap:

just a small white spot on his nose in the shape of a bandage.

Let's take a closer look.

415 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:37:04pm

re: #406 Charles Johnson

Oh brother.

well, you asked.

416 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:38:06pm

re: #404 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII

See, for example, the DOJ report on the New Orleans PD. (PDF link)

The executive summary alone is just page after page of WTF.

It goes on and on and on. Non-investigation of sex crimes, retaliation against officers who try to play it straight, etc.

I'm willing to argue hard in defense of police forces that are strongly honest and work hard to protect the citizens they are sworn to protect, such as the NYPD and Houston PD. But by the same token, police departments like the Sanford PD that act dishonestly and entirely fail to do their duties deserve to be the objects of withering scorn.

417 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:38:09pm

re: #415 Buck

well, you asked.

And you failed.

418 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:39:23pm

re: #410 jaunte

Looks like nose color to me
Image: Fullscreen_capture_31032012_93009zoom_PM.bmp.jpg

Ok, to you it can look like a pineapple. To me it looks like a bandage, the kind you get to hold your nose in place after it has been hit.

Also for the record I have had that kind of injury, and I was not put in a full head bandage or any huge cast.

419 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:39:24pm

re: #408 Buck

Well, not if there was no struggle, as so many are saying. And because so many are saying the video disproves any injury.

Who denies any struggle? Witnesses consistently describe a struggle. The point is whether the struggle was as GZ and his father descibe it - life-threatening beating of his head on concrete and with fists for a minute.

And if there was a small mano-a-mano fistfight, that is compatible with these scratches, and GZ chose to use the gun... Well, I rest my case.

420 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:40:39pm

re: #418 Buck

He's not wearing a bandage.

421 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:40:58pm

Now I admit I'm not an expert on this but just trying to reason this out as best I can, if the nose wound was small it would have been given a bandaid that would have been a skin tone like color on a hispanic man and might be easy to miss, if it was bad it would have been given stiches which would have been bright white, but large and easy to spot... is there a situation/type of wound treatment which leads to a shiny white spot like the one Buck is pointing out?

422 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:41:55pm

re: #419 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

The point is whether the struggle was as GZ and his father descibe it - life-threatening

Actually that is not what GZ and his father say. We don't know what GZ says yet, but his father says that it only became life threatening when his son saw that Treyvon saw and made a comment about the firearm.

423 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:42:06pm

re: #419 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Who denies any struggle? Witnesses consistently describe a struggle. The point is whether the struggle was as GZ and his father descibe it - life-threatening beating of his head on concrete and with fists for a minute.

And if there was a small mano-a-mano fistfight, that is compatible with these scratches, and GZ chose to use the gun... Well, I rest my case.

Also, the funeral director who worked on Martin said there was zero damage to his hands or knuckles, and that this was specifically the kind of injury he searches for to cover up.

424 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:42:39pm

re: #419 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Who denies any struggle? Witnesses consistently describe a struggle. The point is whether the struggle was as GZ and his father descibe it - life-threatening beating of his head on concrete and with fists for a minute.

And if there was a small mano-a-mano fistfight, that is compatible with these scratches, and GZ chose to use the gun... Well, I rest my case.

It's plausible that Martin did punch Zimmerman, explaining the nose bleed. But it's just plausible that he did so because GZ was making an effort to grab and restrain him, in the hopes of turning him over to the cops. What stretches credibility is that such a minor bleed came from a punch that "decked" Zimmerman. And if there was a cut to the back of his head that, in the words of Zimmerman's lawyer, "merited stitches," then it's either invisible or the EMTs on-scene worked some magic.

425 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:43:06pm

Video shows Zimmerman without obvious injuries
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

426 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:44:09pm

re: #422 Buck

Actually that is not what GZ and his father say. We don't know what GZ says yet, but his father says that it only became life threatening when his son saw that Treyvon saw and made a comment about the firearm.

[Link: www.mcclatchydc.com...]

Trayvon “punched him in the nose, his nose was broken, and he was knocked to the concrete.” Robert Zimmerman said. “It’s my understanding Trayvon Martin got on top of him and just started beating him in the face, in his nose, hitting his head on the concrete.”

“After nearly a minute of being beaten,” Robert Zimmerman said George tried – with Trayvon still on top of him – to move away from the concrete onto the grass. In doing so, the gun he kept in a holster on his waist was exposed.

427 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:44:16pm

Image: zimmerman_youtube_620x350.jpg

There's no bandage, Buck.

428 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:44:17pm

I gave up on calling myself "conservative" or even "Republican sympathiser" during the '08 election, on the grounds that I didn't want to soil myself with the kind of reactionary, racist, crypto-fascist ass-hattery that was only just starting to ooze out in large quantities back then. I really can't believe the kind of depths they've sunk to now. Absolute inhumanity from top to bottom... I feel dirty sharing the same planet with some of these folks.

I guess it's not easy to dredge up this crap and show it to the world, either. Kudos to Charles and the rest of you guys for shining light on this.

429 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:44:20pm

re: #421 jamesfirecat

nose wound was small it would have been given a bandaid

Actually is a hard bit of plastic designed to hold the nose in place. The bleeding comes from inside the nose. He might have had something stuffed into his nostrils for that.

430 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:44:32pm

re: #422 Buck

Don't you have a bridge you're supposed to be lurking under?

431 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:45:01pm

re: #422 Buck

Actually that is not what GZ and his father say. We don't know what GZ says yet, but his father says that it only became life threatening when his son saw that Treyvon saw and made a comment about the firearm.

The police say that Zimmerman was wearing the gun in an in the waistband type holster. It would have been very difficult to see since the police video clearly shows that red and black sweater/fleece jacket covers his belt line, and one witness saying it was very dark out.

432 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:46:06pm

re: #430 Dark_Falcon

Don't you have a bridge you're supposed to be lurking under?

My billy goats stole it, brick by brick.

433 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:46:52pm

re: #422 Buck

Actually that is not what GZ and his father say. We don't know what GZ says yet, but his father says that it only became life threatening when his son saw that Treyvon saw and made a comment about the firearm.

This is the same man who says Trayvon actually said "You got me...." like an extra in a western after being shot.

Do you take him to be a credible source of information?

434 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:47:05pm

re: #431 goddamnedfrank

The police say that Zimmerman was wearing the gun in an in the waistband type holster. It would have been very difficult to see since the police video clearly shows that red and black sweater/fleece jacket covers his belt line, and one witness saying it was very dark out.

The only other scenario where Martin would have seen the gun and commented on it is if Zimmerman already had it drawn. If that was the case, then why would Zimmerman have drawn his gun if he didn't believe his life was in danger before Martin attacked?

435 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:47:54pm

OK, I've had enough of Buck for today ;)

436 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:48:12pm

re: #418 Buck

I have to give you credit for taking the crazy excuse-making another step beyond. Now he had bandages. Even though everyone can watch the videos and see very clearly that there were no bandages.

Even I didn't see that one coming. Kudos.

437 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:48:53pm

re: #434 Targetpractice

The only other scenario where Martin would have seen the gun and commented on it is if Zimmerman already had it drawn. If that was the case, then why would Zimmerman have drawn his gun if he didn't believe his life was in danger before Martin attacked?

Martin could have also had X-ray vision, being black and all.

438 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:48:56pm

re: #434 Targetpractice

If that was the case, then why would Zimmerman have drawn his gun if he didn't believe his life was in danger before Martin attacked?

Don't you get it? "If that was the case"? You make up a case and then ask how it could be true?

439 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:49:25pm

re: #436 Charles Johnson

I have to give you credit for taking the crazy excuse-making another step beyond. Now he had bandages. Even though everyone can watch the videos and see very clearly that there were no bandages.

Even I didn't see that one coming. Kudos.

It's just a step up from the one I've been hearing since yesterday, that you can "clearly see" that his nose is already swollen/crooked, while at the same time being told that the video quality is so "poor" as to prevent you from seeing any injuries or blood clearly.

440 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:49:27pm

re: #422 Buck

Actually that is not what GZ and his father say. We don't know what GZ says yet, but his father says that it only became life threatening when his son saw that Treyvon saw and made a comment about the firearm.

I think it became life threatening when a guy with a gun decided to go looking for trouble in the dark, despite being told not to by an emergency response professional. First rule of carrying a gun (and I do, thanks to my CHL) - don't go looking for a fight.

Real simple stuff; Human Relations 101. Not a hard rule to follow.

441 Batman  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:49:39pm

He has the exact amount of bandages you'd expect after being attacked by a teenager he could have lifted over his head and thrown with little effort. That is, none.

442 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:50:22pm

But hey - maybe they were special super-thin skin-colored nose bandages? The kind only the Sanford PD has? The kind that nobody can actually see? We wouldn't want him to be embarrassed after gunning down a 17-year old kid, after all.

I want some of those bandages!

443 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:50:28pm

re: #427 Charles Johnson

Image: zimmerman_youtube_620x350.jpg

There's no bandage, Buck.

I said I see a bandage. In my screen cap you can see the filename and the time.

444 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:50:33pm

re: #429 Buck

Actually is a hard bit of plastic designed to hold the nose in place. The bleeding comes from inside the nose. He might have had something stuffed into his nostrils for that.

Keep defending a guy who killed someone. Why? What in the fuck do you have invested?

445 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:51:08pm

re: #444 Hoodies for Justice. T

Keep defending a guy who killed someone. Why? What in the fuck do you have invested?

That is not what I am doing.

446 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:51:41pm

re: #438 Buck

Don't you get it? "If that was the case"? You make up a case and then ask how it could be true?

Then what scenario do you think plausible for Martin making a grab for Zimmerman's gun?

Because unless they took his gun at the scene, I never saw a sign of it or its holster in the SPD video. And if I couldn't see it in fairly bright lighting, how am I supposed to believe Martin could see it under darker conditions?

447 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:52:16pm

re: #443 Buck

GAZE

Folks, please stop feeding the troll.

448 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:53:09pm

re: #446 Targetpractice

they took his gun at the scene. That is in the report (that I guess you didn't read).

449 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:53:13pm

I think we've proved a point.

Are all the evidence and arguments we've listed "beyond the reasonable doubt"? No, not yet. Is it a "probable cause"? Lots of it.

450 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:54:21pm

re: #443 Buck

I said I see a bandage. In my screen cap you can see the filename and the time.

Can you see one in that Screen cap Charles gave Buck?

451 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:55:08pm

re: #450 jamesfirecat

It's a specific-to-the-second Bandaid™

452 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:55:55pm

re: #449 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

I think we've proved a point.

Are all the evidence and arguments we've listed "beyond the reasonable doubt"? No, not yet. Is it a "probable cause"? Lots of it.

There's enough probable cause here that, under normal circumstances, a judge would be hit up for the warrants necessary to do further investigation, if not arrest Zimmerman.

But that works under the assumption that the cops are interested in actually getting to the bottom of events, or that the state attorney is interested in actually prosecuting a crime. So far, I've only seen one cop who actually was interested in doing more than just signing off on Zimmerman's story and moving on.

453 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:56:46pm

re: #450 jamesfirecat

Can you see one in that Screen cap Charles gave Buck?

is this the same shot? I know this hasn't been enhanced, and you can see the time and filename.

this one?

454 Batman  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:56:49pm

If Martin managed to drop a man with a gun twice his weight and bashed his head multiple times, like he was reported to, not only would he not be dead right now, but I would be giving him a costume and calling him "Robin."

455 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:56:51pm

I am stuck on Bandaid brand cuz Bandaid stuck on me

456 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:57:45pm

In light of Buck's persistent trolling, I'd like to make a motion to give him an automatic time-out when his negative karma reaches 10,000.

/somewhat kidding

457 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:57:50pm

re: #453 Buck

is this the same shot? I know this hasn't been enhanced, and you can see the time and filename.

this one?

Be nice if you answered the question yes or no....

458 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:58:27pm

Les Claypool featuring Matisyahu..Cant tell Errol anything

Youtube Video
459 abolitionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:58:37pm

re: #402 Buck

OK, requested screen cap:

just a small white spot on his nose in the shape of a bandage.

The front of GZ's nose is at an angle comparable to the cruiser's windshield. See anything in that windshield?

460 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:58:38pm

re: #457 jamesfirecat

Be nice if you answered the question yes or no...

I see it in mine. And the video I watched. I said I did.

461 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:59:04pm

I'm still trying to figure out how none of the blood from Zimmerman's broken nose got on his shirt or jacket.

462 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:59:13pm

re: #454 Batman

If Martin managed to drop a man with a gun twice his weight and bashed his head multiple times, like he was reported to, not only would he not be dead right now, but I would be giving him a costume and calling him "Robin."

That's another thing that you notice in the video, that the narrative about Zimmerman being "fat" and thus easy to get the jump on sort of falls apart. Because the guy I see on that video does not look "fat" by any definition of the word I know. At 5'9" and 250lb (reported), with that body build, my only conclusion is that that weight is primarily muscle.

463 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:59:40pm

re: #459 abolitionist

The front of GZ's nose is at an angle comparable to the cruiser's windshield. See anything in that windshield?

Yes, a giant Windshield Bandaid.

464 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:59:46pm

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

In light of Buck's persistent trolling, I'd like to make a motion to give him an automatic time-out when his negative karma reaches 10,000.

/somewhat kidding

The miracle, is, that he is endlessly polite.And he deserves kudos for that!

465 compound_Idaho  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 7:59:46pm

re: #461 Mich-again

Broke my nose in a softball game. The batter squared to bunt then put a pretty good swing on the ball. Not one drop of blood. I was the best man at my friends wedding with two black eyes and a swollen face.

466 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:00:12pm

re: #461 Mich-again

It was 'lightly' broken and healed in 20 minutes.

467 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:00:22pm

re: #459 abolitionist

The front of GZ's nose is at an angle comparable to the cruiser's windshield. See anything in that windshield?

Long white bandages. I guess they were trying to fix some cracks /

468 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:00:43pm

re: #465 compound_Idaho

Broke my nose in a softball game. The batter squared to bunt then put a pretty good swing on the ball. Not one drop of blood. I was the best man at my friends wedding with two black eyes and a swollen face.

How severe was the break? Did it have to be realigned?

469 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:01:25pm

re: #454 Batman

If Martin managed to drop a man with a gun twice his weight and bashed his head multiple times, like he was reported to, not only would he not be dead right now, but I would be giving him a costume and calling him "Robin."

At which point some people would hate on you, calling Robin a "traditionally white character".

Seriously though, while that would have kept Trayvon Martin alive, it would have also ensured his arrest. And unlike George Zimmerman, he would not have been treated with kid gloves. Instead he'd have been charged with assault and battery, the priorities of the Sanford Pd being clear.

470 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:01:29pm

re: #466 jaunte

It was 'lightly' broken and healed in 20 minutes.

"Regular Hispanics" are known for their swift healing abilities.

//

471 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:02:50pm

re: #464 Floral Giraffe

The miracle, is, that he is endlessly polite.And he deserves kudos for that!

That he does deserve some respect for. Unlike some others (who have since been banned), Buck doesn't call people names or make ugly personal insinuations.

472 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:02:55pm

It's one giant Ideology Bandaid. Big enough to wrap around your brain and 'heal' it from all those impure leftist thoughts.

473 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:04:00pm

re: #471 Dark_Falcon

That he does deserve some respect for. Unlike some others (who have since been banned), Buck doesn't call people names or make ugly personal insinuations.

Oh, he does. Called me an anti-Christian bigot recently without any credible evidence and persisted in it even when the offending sentences were explained to him.

474 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:04:44pm

re: #469 Dark_Falcon

At which point some people would hate on you, calling Robin a "traditionally white character".

Seriously though, while that would have kept Trayvon Martin alive, it would have also ensured his arrest. And unlike George Zimmerman, he would not have been treated with kid gloves. Instead he'd have been charged with assault and battery, the priorities of the Sanford Pd being clear.

You know it would sort of be an interesting twist to see Brtuce Wayne adopting/taking under his wing an inner city black kid to play up the reaction between him and his rich north eastern white guy background...

475 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:05:18pm

re: #473 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Oh, he does. Called me an anti-Christian bigot recently without any credible evidence and persisted in it even when the offending sentences were explained to him.

Actually I backed that up with your own words. You even now agree that the sentences were offensive.

476 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:05:33pm

re: #443 Buck

I said I see a bandage. In my screen cap you can see the filename and the time.

I see many things.
Like vampires.
And zombies.
And demons.
NO ONE BELIEVES ME.

477 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:05:38pm

re: #471 Dark_Falcon

That he does deserve some respect for. Unlike some others (who have since been banned), Buck doesn't call people names or make ugly personal insinuations.

I believe you're forgetting all the times he claimed that Obidicutt supported children being able to give leagally binding sexual concent.

478 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:05:44pm

re: #475 Buck

Re-read:

Oh, he does. Called me an anti-Christian bigot recently without any credible evidence and persisted in it even when the offending sentences were explained to him.

479 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:05:50pm

re: #473 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Oh, he does. Called me an anti-Christian bigot recently without any credible evidence and persisted in it even when the offending sentences were explained to him.

That I had not heard of. I've been so tired on getting home lately that I can't post here for long before suffering a narcoleptic episode and falling asleep in from of the PC.

480 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:06:13pm

Claypool [PRIMUS] Whamola

Youtube Video

"I'm not gonna do what Simon says"
481 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:06:19pm

re: #477 jamesfirecat

I believe you're forgetting all the times he claimed that Obidicutt supported children being able to give leagally binding sexual concent.

That is just a lie.

482 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:07:42pm

re: #478 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

the offending sentences

Right you explained it. So what?

483 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:07:44pm

re: #481 Buck

That is just a lie.

Give me five minutes to go hunt down the relevent posts.

484 Digital Display  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:07:49pm

re: #402 Buck

OK, requested screen cap:

just a small white spot on his nose in the shape of a bandage.

Why are you looking at a tiny possible bandage? Look at his clothes..He is wearing the same red sweatshirt from the crime scene.. What do you see?
Let's call an expert witness.. The Hoopster.. I've had more broken bones, cuts, gashes, knee injuries and bruises than any person should..
Hoopster..What do you see?
Nothing..There should be a ton of blood stains from a broken nose all over his clothes...
Why?
During playing sports or fighting and breaking a nose. blood just gushes everywhere cause the heart is beating so hard.. You see the tee shirt? not a drop of blood.. No stains anywhere..
What about the head?
Head wounds bleed like crazy even if they aren't that serious a wound..
So even if your head was struck just once or twice on a sidewalk there would be visible evidence..
At least a bandage..you don't want to get an infection on a head wound..
Gauze?
Yes..
What else is missing?
This was a fight to the death with a stranger..
What else is missing?
Torn clothes.. Bad ass fights there is always a torn shirt at least..What am the only one here that hasn't watched a bar fight? There is always a torn shirt..

485 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:08:30pm

re: #482 Buck

Right you explained it. So what?

Since you didn't offer any apologies, I can only presume you're a scumbag. That "what".

486 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:09:07pm

re: #482 Buck

Right you explained it. So what?

Heh, just like we explain things like AGW to you...
;)

487 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:10:16pm

re: #460 Buck

I see it in mine. And the video I watched. I said I did.

Do you realize that the "bandage" you're "seeing" at in that first photograph is literally a 2x2 square of four pixels?

I like how nowadays every douchebag with a DSLR considers themselves an expert on digital imagery. If I had known I could have saved myself all that time and money in graduate school getting a Masters of Science in the field.

488 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:11:42pm

re: #471 Dark_Falcon

Buck doesn't call people names or make ugly personal insinuations.

Wrong on both counts.

489 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:11:57pm

re: #471 Dark_Falcon

That he does deserve some respect for. Unlike some others (who have since been banned), Buck doesn't call people names or make ugly personal insinuations.

He just called us a mob earlier in this thread.

490 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:12:05pm

re: #487 goddamnedfrank

Do you realize that the "bandage" you're "seeing" at in that first photography is literally a 2x2 square of four pixels?

I like how nowadays every douchebag with a DSLR considers themselves an expert on digital imagery. If I had known I could have saved myself all that time and money in graduate school getting a Masters of Science in the field.

I never said I was an expert. All I said is what I see. People asked me to put up a screen shot. I did (two different ones).

491 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:13:19pm

re: #490 Buck

I never said I was an expert. All I said is what I see. People asked me to put up a screen shot. I did (two different ones).

Neither of which shows really much beyond a trick of light and shadow.

492 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:13:23pm

re: #483 jamesfirecat

re: #485 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

re: #488 Interesting Times

re: #489 Kronocide

Displayed that the weight of evidence is greatly against me. Consider my #471 retracted.

493 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:13:39pm
494 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:13:48pm
Youtube Video
495 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:14:45pm

re: #492 Dark_Falcon

Really? You must be dense is calling someone a name? Otherwise all they have done is hearsay.

I never said what James insinuates.

496 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:16:24pm

re: #485 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Since you didn't offer any apologies, I can only presume you're a scumbag. That "what".

Or I didn't think you explained enough to deserve one.

497 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:17:01pm

re: #496 Buck

Or I didn't think you explained enough to deserve one.

Then any decent person would have explained what is supposed to be wrong with the explanations. But you're not, so you did not.

498 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:18:31pm

BTW, my "sin" was pointing out the Christian apologetic nature of some of the sources he used - a perfectly neutral description.

499 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:18:50pm

re: #497 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Then any decent person would have explained what is supposed to be wrong with the explanations. But you're not, so you did not.

I said what was wrong with the offensive sentences. That was enough as far as I was concerned. You want absolution? Look elsewhere.

500 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:19:00pm

re: #498 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

BTW, my "sin" was pointing out the Christian apologetic nature of some of the sources he used - a perfectly neutral description.

SCANDALOUS

501 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:19:26pm

re: #499 Buck

I said what was wrong with the offensive sentences. That was enough as far as I was concerned. You want absolution? Look elsehere.

And I explained what was wrong with your reasons.

502 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:19:39pm

re: #498 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

BTW, my "sin" was pointing out the Christian apologetic nature of some of the sources he used - a perfectly neutral description.

Nope, that is not what happened.

503 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:19:40pm

Absolution? OK, that's funny in a bold sort of way. I may need a drink now.

504 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:20:06pm

re: #502 Buck

Nope, that is not what happened.

Yep, that's what happened.

505 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:20:09pm

re: #503 Gus

*raises chalice*

506 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:20:50pm

Here is the most relevent thread of Buck and Obdicut's discussion [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] Buck being Buck never says anything that got him banned, but read it for yourself and make your own conclusion.

But if you want the most dramatic stuff here....


[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

507 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:20:58pm

Sergey,
Can I get a link to the posts in question?

508 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:21:31pm

re: #503 Gus

Absolution? OK, that's funny in a bold sort of way. I may need a drink now.

In that case, I suggest...

509 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:21:56pm

re: #495 Buck

Really? You must be dense is calling someone a name? Otherwise all they have done is hearsay.

I never said what James insinuates.

Whether or not you're a potty mouth is really a distant second to the disrespect you show everyone by continuous application of a double standard in which your suppositions have weight of validity and everyone else's are baseless regardless of the justifications provided.

Hence why I ignore you.

Now back a PD James book tape and stif-frying....

510 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:22:34pm

Ta da da. Heh. Lying SOB.

511 blueraven  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:22:39pm

re: #422 Buck

Actually that is not what GZ and his father say. We don't know what GZ says yet, but his father says that it only became life threatening when his son saw that Treyvon saw and made a comment about the firearm.

No, his brother said if his head was banged on the cement one more time by Trayvon, George would be wearing diapers and would need to be spoon fed. That sounds pretty damn hardcore dont ya think?

512 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:22:51pm

re: #503 Gus

Absolution? OK, that's funny in a bold sort of way. I may need a drink now.

Isn't that a vodka? Is that Buck reaching out?

(Scratches head)

513 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:23:05pm

re: #506 jamesfirecat

Here is the most relevent thread of Buck and Obdicut's discussion [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] Buck being Buck never says anything that got him banned, but read it for yourself and make your own conclusion.

More importantly I never said that "Obidicutt supported children being able to give leagally binding sexual concent."

That is what you are looking for. That is what you accuse me of. PROVE IT! Or apologize.

514 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:23:42pm

re: #476 Varek Raith

I see many things.
Like vampires.
And zombies.
And demons.
NO ONE BELIEVES ME.

I believe you.
And I see you in that black cape of yours...

515 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:25:58pm

re: #514 Floral Giraffe

I believe you.
And I see you in that black cape of yours...

Floral, I'm afraid we've been proven wrong on Buck's case. He seems to have been quite the ass in a number of cases.

516 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:26:08pm

re: #507 Varek Raith

Above. So, what do you think?

517 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:27:37pm

re: #513 Buck

More importantly I never said that "Obidicutt supported children being able to give leagally binding sexual concent."

That is what you are looking for. That is what you accuse me of. PROVE IT!

You missed the update Buck which I can't really blame you for but here....


[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Does it say exactly what I accused you of? Not really because my memory is foggy so I mischarged you. Does it show you making ugly personal insinuations about Obdicut which was really what the overall point I was trying to prove happened to be? I'll let my fellow Lizards decide.

518 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:28:03pm

re: #511 blueraven

No, his brother said if his head was banged on the cement one more time by Trayvon, George would be wearing diapers and would need to be spoon fed. That sounds pretty damn hardcore dont ya think?

It's the constant ratcheting up on the "severity" of his wounds. When it all started, all the was mentioned was what was in the police report, namely the cuts to his head and a bloody nose. Then suddenly it was a broken nose and a worse cut to the back of his head. Next, we got told that he'd been "decked" and his head repeatedly slammed into the ground. Now we're being told by his brother, who IIRC he's not on speaking terms with, that GZ suffered brain damage.

I'd almost think the family was trying to make the cops look incompetent, that they didn't take his injuries seriously by sending him to the hospital, even if he was refusing to go. By taking him to the station with such severe injuries, even if you ignore the video, they were making themselves liable if he died in their custody.

519 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:28:16pm

Oh, PGL is here!

520 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:28:30pm

Its Kentucky versus Kansas Monday night for the NCAA Championship.

521 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:29:01pm

re: #516 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Above. So, what do you think?

Buck is making a planet out of a grain of sand.

522 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:29:21pm

re: #521 Varek Raith

Buck is making a planet out of a grain of sand.

IOW, shitting a brick.

523 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:30:06pm

re: #522 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

IOW, shitting a brick.

I felt like being poetic.
:P

524 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:30:10pm

I'm cooled off.

My friends everywhere told me to tell the girl I have been interested in about my feelings. My heart is beating at a million times a minute, and hands are shaking.

Also, I don't go to TVTropes anymore.

525 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:30:45pm

re: #524 ProGunLiberal

Hey there guy. Hope you're better!

526 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:31:20pm

re: #524 ProGunLiberal

I can feel my entire body beating. On the nervous scale from 1-10, I am at 62.

527 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:31:26pm

re: #523 Varek Raith

BTW, you understand that your, uh, absolution makes you an anti-Christian bigot too?

528 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:32:12pm

re: #527 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

BTW, you understand that your, uh, absolution makes you an anti-Christian bigot too?

That's ok, as I hate everything in existence.
/

529 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:32:32pm

Need encouragement to push to actually say it.

530 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:32:50pm

re: #517 jamesfirecat

You missed the update Buck which I can't really blame you for but here...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Does it say exactly what I accused you of? Not really because my memory is foggy so I mischarged you. Does it show you being disrespectful of Obdicut which was really what the overall point I was trying to prove happened to be? I'll let my fellow Lizards decide.

Oh.. is that what we call it now. Mischarged. A pretty serious error IMO.

As to being disrespectful to Obdicut, you miss who was disrespectful and who was defending himself.

Mischarged. A funny word for you to use.

531 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:34:51pm

re: #530 Buck

Oh.. is that what we call it now. Mischarged. A pretty serious error IMO.

As to being disrespectful to Obdicut, you miss who was disrespectful and who was defending himself.

Mischarged. A funny word for you to use.

That wasn't meant to be a factual statement.
-Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ)

532 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:35:47pm

re: #524 ProGunLiberal

I'm cooled off.

My friends everywhere told me to tell the girl I have been interested in about my feelings. My heart is beating at a million times a minute, and hands are shaking.

Also, I don't go to TVTropes anymore.

Glad to have you back.

533 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:35:53pm

re: #526 ProGunLiberal

I can feel my entire body beating. On the nervous scale from 1-10, I am at 62.

Hey you. Don't worry about it. Sit down. Relax. Watch Buck.

534 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:36:35pm

You're being an asshole could be a statement of fact.

535 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:37:16pm

Thump-thumpity-thump-thump.

This is nerve-wracking. Up to now, I have always been way the hell to shy to do this. I can see why guys might drink in order to actually tell their feelings. This is nerve-wracking.

536 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:37:21pm

re: #533 Gus

*thumbs up*

537 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:37:25pm

re: #517 jamesfirecat

You missed the update Buck which I can't really blame you for but here...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I mischarged you.

So from now on, when ever we are in a heated debate about something I can put this out a hat and say that you libelled and defamed me. Right? Like you just did, only I would be accurate.

538 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:37:30pm

re: #524 ProGunLiberal

I'm cooled off.

My friends everywhere told me to tell the girl I have been interested in about my feelings. My heart is beating at a million times a minute, and hands are shaking.

Also, I don't go to TVTropes anymore.

Good to see ya back.

As for building up confidence, I can't really help you. I'm a coward at the best of times and my advice for approaching women could fit on a postage stamp. Perhaps the best way to approach it would be to go ahead, tell her how you feel, and find out if she reciprocates rather than letting the doubt and fear eat you from the inside out.

539 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:37:39pm

re: #529 ProGunLiberal

Need encouragement to push to actually say it.

You better before someone else swoops in and steals her away..

540 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:37:41pm

re: #530 Buck

Oh.. is that what we call it now. Mischarged. A pretty serious error IMO.

As to being disrespectful to Obdicut, you miss who was disrespectful and who was defending himself.

Mischarged. A funny word for you to use.

It's half an hour to midnight and I spent 10 hours at RFK stadium on my feet more or less the entire time yesterday.

Why is "micharged' a funny word for me to use exactly?

541 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:38:47pm

re: #515 Dark_Falcon

Floral, I'm afraid we've been proven wrong on Buck's case. He seems to have been quite the ass in a number of cases.

But, he is mostly polite...

542 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:38:48pm

re: #537 Buck

So from now on, when ever we are in a heated debate about something I can put this out a hat and say that you libelled and defamed me. Right? Like you just did, only I would be accurate.

Image: 106812_Irony_at_its_best-s496x395-31670-580.jpg

543 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:38:48pm

re: #535 ProGunLiberal

Maybe you should just ask to spend some time with her on a date and see if she picks up the feelings part on her own. Women are pretty good at that.

544 Kronocide  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:38:55pm

Victimhood Bandaid applied.

545 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:39:19pm

re: #540 jamesfirecat

Why is "micharged' a funny word for me to use exactly?

Because you are in such a hurry to charge some one with a crime and arrest him before you have seen ANY of the evidence.

546 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:39:38pm

re: #537 Buck

So from now on, when ever we are in a heated debate about something I can put this out a hat and say that you libelled and defamed me. Right? Like you just did, only I would be accurate.

Yeah you could.

I'm not infallable.

547 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:39:58pm

re: #545 Buck

Because you are in such a hurry to charge some one with a crime and arrest him before you have seen ANY of the evidence.

HAH!
What are your thoughts on the evidence of AGW?

548 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:40:12pm

re: #536 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

*thumbs up*

TY. One of my many charming qualities. //

549 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:40:14pm

re: #545 Buck

Because you are in such a hurry to charge some one with a crime and arrest him before you have seen ANY of the evidence.

ANY?

Is the Video not evidence?

Is George Zimmerman statement where he ADMITS to pulling the trigger not evidence?

Is Treyvon Martin's call with his girlfriend where he talks about how he's trying to run away from some white guy not evidence?

Is Zimmerman's call where he goes against the dispatcher's orders and follows Treyvon not evidence?

550 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:40:46pm

re: #533 Gus

Actually that sounds sort of amusing. Now I wait. I have been acting strange with her for a few months, so my behavior might make more sense now.

re: #543 jaunte

If you got a teleporter to FOCO, I would love to see it.

Though, I will be back to Colorado in May after graduation. If this works, my Dad will disapprove of me being with a Catholic. At which point, I disclose to him I am Muslim.

551 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:40:58pm

re: #549 jamesfirecat

ANY?

Is the Video not evidence?

Of a crime? No.

552 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:41:18pm

re: #547 Varek Raith

HAH!
What are your thoughts on the evidence of AGW?

And, yes, this is a trap.
One I suspect you'll walk right into.
;)

553 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:42:03pm

re: #545 Buck

Because you are in such a hurry to charge some one with a crime and arrest him before you have seen ANY of the evidence.

I've seen more than enough evidence to charge him with a crime. Making the case for conviction is up to the prosecutor, but there is definitely enough just from what is known to charge Zimmerman.

554 Interesting Times  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:42:07pm

re: #549 jamesfirecat

Psst...you're falling for his framing and letting him trip you up.

555 jaunte  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:42:09pm

re: #550 ProGunLiberal

I see; well, it's worth raising the possibility of a date in future when you're in the same place, to see how she responds.

556 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:42:36pm

re: #551 Buck

Of a crime? No.

Original Post was going off halfcocked (yeah yeah I know rushing things through it's late at night so on and so forth) let me give you the full better phrased version.

ANY?

Is the Video not evidence?

Is George Zimmerman statement where he ADMITS to pulling the trigger not evidence?

Is Treyvon Martin's call with his girlfriend where he talks about how he's trying to run away from some white guy not evidence?

Is Zimmerman's call where he goes against the dispatcher's orders and follows Treyvon not evidence?

557 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:43:02pm

re: #548 Gus

Modesty is just one of my many good qualities! //

558 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:43:28pm

Buck has a profound misunderstanding of the law if he thinks the police need a bulletproof case against a perp to make an arrest.

559 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:44:01pm

re: #557 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Modesty is just one of my many good qualities! //

Yes. One must always live their lives as though they were going to Oxford. //

560 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:44:08pm

re: #554 Interesting Times

Psst...you're falling for his framing and letting him trip you up.

Fuck it, its late at night I don't have the mental muscles to clever at the moment I'll just be his sleep deprived liberal straw man for better or worse, it'd be a shame if Buck's views on the issue weren't recorded for prosterity's sake.

561 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:44:12pm

re: #555 jaunte

True.

The thing with my dad is, he is basically a WASP from a generation or two before his time. He doesn't approve of people who don't fit into WASP.

And, apparently, Mom says he thinks I was joking when I made a passing statement that I was converting to Islam in December 2010. If this goes in my favor.

FIREWORKS!!!

562 Gus  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:44:21pm

Change puters....

563 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:45:49pm

re: #558 Mich-again

Buck has a profound misunderstanding of the law if he thinks the police need a bulletproof case against a perp to make an arrest.

Not necessarily. Under SYG, you have to provide a judge enough evidence that he signs off on an arrest before you can begin to really begin to treat the person as a suspect. If the judge decides that the evidence presented isn't enough to disprove the "self-defense" claim, then your hands are bound. You could keep whacking your head against that wall, hoping to find something eventually, but it's just as plausible that further investigation is deemed a "waste of resources" and the case deemed closed.

564 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:46:30pm

re: #550 ProGunLiberal

Actually that sounds sort of amusing. Now I wait. I have been acting strange with her for a few months, so my behavior might make more sense now.

re: #543 jaunte

If you got a teleporter to FOCO, I would love to see it.

Though, I will be back to Colorado in May after graduation. If this works, my Dad will disapprove of me being with a Catholic. At which point, I disclose to him I am Muslim.

Your dad doesn't know you're Muslim?

565 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:46:51pm

re: #563 Targetpractice

Not necessarily. Under SYG, you have to provide a judge enough evidence that he signs off on an arrest before you can begin to really begin to treat the person as a suspect. If the judge decides that the evidence presented isn't enough to disprove the "self-defense" claim, then your hands are bound. You could keep whacking your head against that wall, hoping to find something eventually, but it's just as plausible that further investigation is deemed a "waste of resources" and the case deemed closed.

Dear god, is that a stupid law.

Like Mandatory Vaginal Ultrasounds that the person getting ultrasounded has to pay for stupid....

566 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:47:30pm

re: #556 jamesfirecat

Is the Video not evidence?

What crime is committed on video that is evidence? The only way to prove that Zimmerman was not injured in anyway is to refute the multiple witnesses on the scene.

Is George Zimmerman statement where he ADMITS to pulling the trigger not evidence?

Sure, but you have not seen that statement have you? And without that you don't know what crime (if any) it is evidence of.

Is Treyvon Martin's call with his girlfriend where he talks about how he's trying to run away from some white guy not evidence?

Have you heard, that evidence? Have you even seen a sworn statement?
Have you seen any supporting evidence that the call took place and when?

Is Zimmerman's call where he goes against the dispatcher's orders and follows Treyvon not evidence?

Nope. Not of a crime.

567 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:49:50pm

Round and round we goooo!!!!

568 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:50:28pm

re: #558 Mich-again

Buck has a profound misunderstanding of the law if he thinks the police need a bulletproof case against a perp to make an arrest.

I never said bulletproof. So no I don't think that at all.

569 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:50:47pm

re: #566 Buck

What crime is committed on video that is evidence? The only way to prove that Zimmerman was not injured in anyway is to refute the multiple witnesses on the scene.

Frank provided a link earlier that roughly 3/4 of all witness testimony used to convict is revealed as faulty. Not to mention two witnesses have told the press that the cops didn't even come around taking down testimony until five days after the events, then used leading questions and "corrections" to match the stories to his testimony.

570 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:50:47pm

re: #564 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Apparently not, no. At least, that's what my Mom thinks from listening to him.

My Grandfather (his dad) think there is no possible way my Dad would miss the changes and everything, especially through FB. Thing is, my Dad doesn't have an FB, and my Mom monitors my sister's, not him. And my cousins definitely know because they have asked me questions about Islam in the past for school projects.

So, my Dad taking things as jokes, and being disconnected could result a really weird week if God wills has me being with this person.

571 Batman  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:54:23pm

You know another way you can get yourself injured besides being attacked? If you're the aggressor and your victim is defending himself. You know, like when you chase someone down for no reason other than you don't like the way they're looking and you don't have any authority to check them out. Simply being injured doesn't prove his self-defense case, or else there's a hell of a lot of murderers who could have easily walked.

572 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:54:45pm

re: #569 Targetpractice

Frank provided a link earlier that roughly 3/4 of all witness testimony used to convict is revealed as faulty. Not to mention two witnesses have told the press that the cops didn't even come around taking down testimony until five days after the events, then used leading questions and "corrections" to match the stories to his testimony.

Yes, but I am talking about the officers and paramedics on the scene. You might think that paramedics saying that they cleaned up a wound on the back of his head is faulty, but as I have explained multiple times, it would point to a much wider conspiracy that I am willing to entertain at this time.

573 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:56:22pm

re: #566 Buck

What crime is committed on video that is evidence? The only way to prove that Zimmerman was not injured in anyway is to refute the multiple witnesses on the scene.

Sure, but you have not seen that statement have you? And without that you don't know what crime (if any) it is evidence of.

Have you heard, that evidence? Have you even seen a sworn statement?
Have you seen any supporting evidence that the call took place and when?

Nope. Not of a crime.

You and I really do operate on different mental operating system's Buck. Not saying one or the other is better, just that they're both different.

None the less I would like to take this moment and apologize for my libel of you prior in the evening. It was a mistake and I should have bothered to review the comments in quest made any comments of my own about what was in them. It was a disservice to you and to the high quality standards of that Charles sets for all of us here at LGF.

Feel free to bring it up any time I'm asking you to take my word and my word alone as the reasoning behind a given argument.

Now I really need to lurch my way up to bed and collapse into it.

Have a pleasant night everyone.

574 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:57:15pm

re: #572 Buck

You might think that paramedics saying that they cleaned up a wound on the back of his head is faulty, but as I have explained multiple times, it would point to a much wider conspiracy that I am willing to entertain at this time.

Have the paramedic statements/reports been released, or are you presenting their purported contents on faith alone?

575 Digital Display  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:57:23pm

re: #561 ProGunLiberal

True.

The thing with my dad is, he is basically a WASP from a generation or two before his time. He doesn't approve of people who don't fit into WASP.

And, apparently, Mom says he thinks I was joking when I made a passing statement that I was converting to Islam in December 2010. If this goes in my favor.

FIREWORKS!!!

Hi You! Are you going to the Fair Sunday?
Do not let your dad's closed mind approach to life effect you...This is your life to live..Not your families..
Probably best not to even mention religion to them...Esp. Your future GF's religion to cause a fuss or confrontation..It's none of their fucking business..Be the bigger man PGL..Life doesn't give you Character, You have to earn it...I have faith in you now get over it and ask that girl out and just have fun...Just have fun and let nature take it's course..You'll be just fine..
Much love brother

576 Shvaughn  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:58:13pm

I thought Buck gave up and left the thread s few hundred posts ago?

577 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:58:33pm

re: #572 Buck

Yes, but I am talking about the officers and paramedics on the scene. You might think that paramedics saying that they cleaned up a wound on the back of his head is faulty, but as I have explained multiple times, it would point to a much wider conspiracy that I am willing to entertain at this time.

Where in the report does it say that paramedics cleaned up a wound?

578 Batman  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:58:54pm

re: #576 Shvaughn

Everyone offered to feed him, and he came back.

579 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:59:21pm

re: #576 Shvaughn

I thought Buck gave up and left the thread s few hundred posts ago?

ZOMBIE BUCK RISE FROM GRAVE TO POST! POOOOOSSSSSTTTTTTTT!

Damn it I need to go to sleep but that one was a gimmie....

580 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:59:31pm

re: #575 HoosierHoops

Yep. I'll be going to looking at Sharp Implements I can't afford (and shouldn't have regardless), and the fluffy animals.

Especially the Bunny Rabbits! BUNNIES!!

581 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:59:33pm

re: #576 Shvaughn

I thought Buck gave up and left the thread s few hundred posts ago?

That's his hamster typing while he's sleeping. Don't worry, there has been no decrease in quality.

582 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:59:53pm

re: #574 goddamnedfrank

Have the paramedic statements/reports been released, or are you presenting their purported contents on faith alone?

One more time:

The police who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose. Now if he put that in writing and signed it and was lying he would have to know that the paramedics and the other police on site would have back him up.

That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, even before they had a chance to know what witnesses would come forward.

That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, a
person they did not know or owe anything to. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman regarding the injury to his nose and the back of his head even though they were taking him in to the police station to be questioned by someone else. Someone else that they must have been sure would also be willing to cover up that lie.

583 Digital Display  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:02:21pm

re: #580 ProGunLiberal

Yep. I'll be going to looking at Sharp Implements I can't afford (and shouldn't have regardless), and the fluffy animals.

Especially the Bunny Rabbits! BUNNIES!!

Parking sucks on Constitution..It's better to walk and enjoy the beautiful weather

584 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:03:31pm

re: #582 Buck

One more time:

The police who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose. Now if he put that in writing and signed it and was lying he would have to know that the paramedics and the other police on site would have back him up.

That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, even before they had a chance to know what witnesses would come forward.

That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman, a
person they did not know or owe anything to. That they all would agree to commit perjury for George Zimmerman regarding the injury to his nose and the back of his head even though they were taking him in to the police station to be questioned by someone else. Someone else that they must have been sure would also be willing to cover up that lie.

The Sanford Fire Department hasn't weighed in on this, we've seen no reports from them, and the only evidence that EMS even as on the seen that night outside of what was in the police report is a recording of the call obtained by the press yesterday, that states that they didn't need a second ambulance as Zimmerman's wounds weren't that severe.

Meanwhile, a witness came forward on Thursday night stating that he saw no blood or injuries on Zimmerman after the concluding gunshots. What reason should I have to believe he's being untruthful?

585 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:04:12pm

re: #583 HoosierHoops

I live in Traditions. If I drove to the fair, it would be the height of laziness. Of course, some friends from Traditions West on that street I'm having a brainfart on have a great deal longer of a walk. I might pick them up, drive them here, and walk the rest of the way.

586 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:10:37pm

re: #584 Targetpractice

The Sanford Fire Department hasn't weighed in on this, we've seen no reports from them, and the only evidence that EMS even as on the seen that night outside of what was in the police report is a recording of the call obtained by the press yesterday, that states that they didn't need a second ambulance as Zimmerman's wounds weren't that severe.

Meanwhile, a witness came forward on Thursday night stating that he saw no blood or injuries on Zimmerman after the concluding gunshots. What reason should I have to believe he's being untruthful?

You shouldn't. If you were the investigator, you would look at ALL the evidence, and you would get a sworn statement from all the witnesses and you would do everything you could to corroborate them.

587 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:11:50pm

re: #563 Targetpractice

Not necessarily. Under SYG, you have to provide a judge enough evidence that he signs off on an arrest before you can begin to really begin to treat the person as a suspect. If the judge decides that the evidence presented isn't enough to disprove the "self-defense" claim, then your hands are bound. You could keep whacking your head against that wall, hoping to find something eventually, but it's just as plausible that further investigation is deemed a "waste of resources" and the case deemed closed.

I've looked through the Florida statutes and I don't see anything about that. Where did you see that in the law? curious.

588 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:14:24pm

Here is the closest thing I can find..

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

That says you can meet force with force. A gun is not the same as a fist.

589 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:15:53pm

re: #584 Targetpractice

that they didn't need a second ambulance as Zimmerman's wounds weren't that severe.

And if you heard that statement would it lead you to believe that there were wounds or there were no wounds?

Remember that you are saying that there is a witness that says (as you state) no blood or injuries on Zimmerman.

590 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:16:22pm

re: #574 goddamnedfrank

Have the paramedic statements/reports been released, or are you presenting their purported contents on faith alone?

I ask, Buck, because you have a documented history here of presenting absolute falsehood as iron clad fact when you think you can bluff your way through, like when you asserted that Paul Revere's letter mentioned bells ringing.

Regarding Paul Revere, one has to read the text in the 1789 letter that he wrote that is maintained by the Massachusetts Historical Society.

In that letter Paul Revere himself recounts bells ringing, shots being fired and yes the warning the British that "There would be five hundred Americans there in a short time, for I had alarmed the Country all the way up.".

Remember that? You asserted something that was demonstrably untrue, nowhere in Revere's letter can you produce even an oblique reference to bells ringing. When called on this lie you simply fled, and have never acknowledged telling it.

re: #582 Buck

One more time:

The police who was onsite immediately after the shooting reported that he saw that Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head and his nose. Now if he put that in writing and signed it and was lying he would have to know that the paramedics and the other police on site would have back him up.

Big assumption, he wouldn't have to know anything, he may have assumed they'd back him up or simply not cared, these are all possibilities, however unlikely they may strike you. You're big on making assumptions. Anyway, this is a dodge, you actually said:

You might think that paramedics saying that they cleaned up a wound on the back of his head is faulty, but as I have explained multiple times, it would point to a much wider conspiracy that I am willing to entertain at this time.

So, either produce the paramedic's statement / report or admit that you presented your own supposition as fact.

591 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:16:54pm

The link for the Stand Your Ground Statute from Florida. 776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.

592 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:20:56pm

re: #587 Mich-again

I've looked through the Florida statutes and I don't see anything about that. Where did you see that in the law? curious.

Neither did I. The law states that the police need "probable cause" contradicting a claim of self-defense to make an arrest. But they can claim probable cause after responding to the scene of a crime, if they find evidence at that time, and make an arrest. A judge might later void the arrest if he found the evidence insufficient, but the police do not have to ask a judge beforehand if they arrive on the scene and find evidence of a crime. That would be insane.

593 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:25:14pm

re: #586 Buck

You shouldn't. If you were the investigator, you would look at ALL the evidence, and you would get a sworn statement from all the witnesses and you would do everything you could to corroborate them.

Hence Frank's point by posting the link, namely that testimony is not reliable in even a majority of cases. Generally the longer you wait to question a witness, the more time there is for memories to degrade. And using leading questions and "corrections," as alleged by two witnesses, only makes matters worse.

594 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:26:47pm

re: #585 ProGunLiberal

Actually, if I drove over there, it would be the textbook definition of lazy.

595 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:27:47pm

re: #589 Buck

And if you heard that statement would it lead you to believe that there were wounds or there were no wounds?

Remember that you are saying that there is a witness that says (as you state) no blood or injuries on Zimmerman.

I should first apologize, as I incorrectly remembered what I'd read about the story. EMS canceled a second ambulance and stated that the second "victim" was not a gunshot, but no mention is made of wounds.

596 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:28:53pm

re: #587 Mich-again

I've looked through the Florida statutes and I don't see anything about that. Where did you see that in the law? curious.

I'd been lead to believe that's what has become policy in light of SYG, but I admit that my understanding of the entire situation is not airtight.

597 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:29:03pm

re: #590 goddamnedfrank

because you have a documented history here of presenting absolute falsehood as iron clad fact when you think you can bluff your way through, like when you asserted that Paul Revere's letter mentioned bells ringing.

I am beginning to see a pattern. If you get frustrated in a debate with someone it is ok to bring up a long lost discussion. OK! AS if the bells were the real point. I was mistaken about the bells. You chased me down on that to prove some kind of point.

Big assumption, he wouldn't have to know anything, he may have assumed they'd back him up or simply not cared, these are all possibilities,

I simply disagree. If one commits a career ending perjury, they would care.

598 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:30:05pm

OK here is this from the same section of law..

However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

So the phrase "reasonably believe" is key. The defendant has to reasonably believe they were facing imminent death or great bodily harm, which means they have to be reasonable to begin with. The police were within their right to order a blood test to check for alcohol or narcotics seeing as there was no obvious reason for Zimmerman to believe his life was endangered. The kid was unarmed, and Zimmerman had no serious injuries if he had any injuries at all. The Sanford police went out of their way to roll over and play dead for Zimmerman.

599 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:33:20pm

re: #598 Mich-again

OK here is this from the same section of law..

So the phrase "reasonably believe" is key. The defendant has to reasonably believe they were facing imminent death or great bodily harm, which means they have to be reasonable to begin with. The police were within their right to order a blood test to check for alcohol or narcotics seeing as there was no obvious reason for Zimmerman to believe his life was endangered. The kid was unarmed, and Zimmerman had no serious injuries if he had any injuries at all. The Sanford police went out of their way to roll over and play dead for Zimmerman.

Exactly. Calling for such tests is well with the "standard investigating procedures" explicitly allowed by the law. Such testing is not considered to be holding someone in custody.

600 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:33:45pm

re: #595 Targetpractice

I should first apologize, as I incorrectly remembered what I'd read about the story. EMS canceled a second ambulance and stated that the second "victim" was not a gunshot, but no mention is made of wounds.

Well, not "no mention".

According to the news report (which could be completely false) Zimmerman’s condition is mentioned briefly in the 30-minute recording.

“Do we have a second patient?” a man asks.

“That’s affirmative. We have a second patient,” a woman replies. “The second patient is not a gunshot.”

That there is a second patient would be the key. Now maybe someone with no wounds is regularly called a patient by the EMS. I don't know. I would want to ask them what they meant.

601 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:34:16pm

re: #597 Buck

I simply disagree. If one commits a career ending perjury, they would care.

Assuming they actually think they'll get caught, yes. Yet history offers plenty of examples of people, police officers included, who told career ending lies not believing they would get caught. Also, the contents of the paramedic's report has not been made public, so you did in fact present your supposition of what its contents would be as an established fact there.

602 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:34:39pm

re: #563 Targetpractice

OK here is the law..

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

So it doesn't say anything about a judge needing to determine if an arrest can be made. It says the police need probable cause that the force used was unlawful. There was probable cause. They should have arrested Zimmerman and let him plead his case to someone else that his use of force was justified.

603 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:38:23pm

re: #600 Buck

Well, not "no mention".

According to the news report (which could be completely false) Zimmerman’s condition is mentioned briefly in the 30-minute recording.

That there is a second patient would be the key. Now maybe someone with no wounds is regularly called a patient by the EMS. I don't know. I would want to ask them what they meant.

I would generally think EMS refers to all those they look over, even if they provide no treatment, as "patients." But yes, I would agree that we need clarification on this matter.

But, as Frank as already posted, you stated Zimmerman being treated for wounds as fact, when it's at best supposition. Do you wish to address this?

604 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:40:27pm

re: #601 goddamnedfrank

did in fact present your supposition of what its contents would be as an established fact there.

I don't think I did. I mean I am not able to rewrite my every post and carry every sentence written into every post. However I think I was clear that I didn't have further evidence, but that I didn't think it was plausible that an officer would perjure himself for someone he didn't know or care about unless he was sure everyone would back him up. It would simply be too easy to prove such a think as a lie. There are many reports being read by the authorities, and if none of them back up this officer then it really would be open and shut on his career.

605 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:41:09pm

re: #603 Targetpractice

I would generally think EMS refers to all those they look over, even if they provide no treatment, as "patients." But yes, I would agree that we need clarification on this matter.

But, as Frank as already posted, you stated Zimmerman being treated for wounds as fact, when it's at best supposition. Do you wish to address this?

I don't think I did.

606 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:42:02pm

re: #602 Mich-again

OK here is the law..

So it doesn't say anything about a judge needing to determine if an arrest can be made. It says the police need probable cause that the force used was unlawful. There was probable cause. They should have arrested Zimmerman and let him plead his case to someone else that his use of force was justified.

What was the probable cause, described at the scene, that Zimmerman's use of force wasn't lawful? The lead investigator expressed disbelief in his version of the story, but a gut feeling isn't really probable cause. Perversely, some of the theoretical evidence that might possibly have provided probable cause can only be gathered after an arrest has been made, such as by drug screening.

607 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:43:28pm

re: #605 Buck

I don't think I did.

re: #572 Buck

Yes, but I am talking about the officers and paramedics on the scene. You might think that paramedics saying that they cleaned up a wound on the back of his head is faulty, but as I have explained multiple times, it would point to a much wider conspiracy that I am willing to entertain at this time.

What about that post indicates that you were engaging in supposition?

608 KingKenrod  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:46:33pm

re: #46 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Reading Tom Owen's interesting interview re: forensic voice analysis: [Link: findarticles.com...]

Based on this interview, I'm ready to call Owen's analysis pretty much worthless. He talks about how important it is to get a good sample, with the speaker speaking the same words in the same manner, and at least 20 words to work with. For instance, from the interview:

Examiner: Are you saying that where the human ear might be fooled, the spectrogram will reveal the truth?

Right. For example, when it looks like the same person but it doesn't sound at all like the same person, then you have to be wary of the exemplar recording and wonder if you actually used the exact same words spoken in the same manner The experience of the examiner comes into play, because if you get on the phone with someone and tell him or her to say, "There's a bomb in the building," and he or she says, "There's a bomb in the building," that's not good enough, because that's going to skew your result. The individual must say the words exactly the way you direct him or her to say them.

So how an earth can you reliably compare a tape of someone speaking in a low tense voice with someone screaming unintelligibly?

609 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:50:10pm

re: #607 Targetpractice

I said: "The only way to prove that Zimmerman was not injured in anyway is to refute the multiple witnesses on the scene."

I then made even clearer that the witnesses I was referring to was the "officers and paramedics on the scene". And that if they did need to be refuted, that is to say they did match and were both lies, then that "would point to a much wider conspiracy that I am willing to entertain at this time."

Again context of the thread matters. Also it counts that I have been clear about the lack of real evidence throughout this thread. And that makes me wait for the actual evidence or finding of the authorities before making judgement.

610 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:53:51pm

re: #608 KingKenrod

Based on this interview, I'm ready to call Owen's analysis pretty much worthless. He talks about how important it is to get a good sample, with the speaker speaking the same words in the same manner, and at least 20 words to work with. For instance, from the interview:

So how an earth can you reliably compare a tape of someone speaking in a low tense voice with someone screaming unintelligibly?

I had the same impression ;)

611 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:53:53pm

re: #606 goddamnedfrank

What was the probable cause, described at the scene, that Zimmerman's use of force wasn't lawful?

The only way that Zimmerman could use legally use deadly force was that the deadly force was required to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm. The cops on the scene saw a 250 pound adult who was uninjured (or perhaps very slightly injured) and a dead minor who weighed about 100 pounds less and was unarmed with no obvious signs of a struggle other than the gunshot wound.

Without some evidence that Zimmerman's life was in imminent danger the use of deadly force was suspect and that is probable cause for arrest. If the cops show up and Zimmerman is beat up all to hell and clothes are torn and ripped and there are serious wounds, then sure. But there was no evidence of imminent death or great bodily harm at all.

612 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:53:57pm

re: #609 Buck

I said: "The only way to prove that Zimmerman was not injured in anyway is to refute the multiple witnesses on the scene."

I then made even clearer that the witnesses I was referring to was the "officers and paramedics on the scene". And that if they did need to be refuted, that is to say they did match and were both lies, then that "would point to a much wider conspiracy that I am willing to entertain at this time."

Again context of the thread matters. Also it counts that I have been clear about the lack of real evidence throughout this thread. And that makes me wait for the actual evidence or finding of the authorities before making judgement.

So, I was supposed to take from the post that it was in context of the thread up until now and so assume you meant that you were supposing that the paramedics had treated Zimmerman. A bit of a stretch, but I'll go with it.

We've not addressed the unreliability of witness testimony, particularly when the witnesses have been led by the authorities. When I have two witnesses who say that their testimony was led by questions and "corrections," am I to assume that only their testimony is in question and the rest reliable enough to draw conclusions?

613 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:57:01pm

And keep in mind the other point about Zimmerman's claim that his life was in imminent danger. He had just been instructed by the 911 operator to not pursue. That he went ahead and got out of his car to pursue make a farce out of the whole self defense claim.

614 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:58:02pm

re: #612 Targetpractice

am I to assume that only their testimony is in question and the rest reliable enough to draw conclusions?

Seriously? Didn't I already answer that for you?

#586

You shouldn't. If you were the investigator, you would look at ALL the evidence, and you would get a sworn statement from all the witnesses and you would do everything you could to corroborate them.

615 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:58:58pm

When this is done, Zimmerman will be charged with manslaughter and wingnut heads will explode for the eleventy-ith time since Obama was elected. Those are my two predictions.

616 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 9:59:30pm

re: #611 Mich-again

The only way that Zimmerman could use legally use deadly force was that the deadly force was required to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm. The cops on the scene saw a 250 pound adult who was uninjured (or perhaps very slightly injured) and a dead minor who weighed about 100 pounds less and was unarmed with no obvious signs of a struggle other than the gunshot wound.

Without some evidence that Zimmerman's life was in imminent danger the use of deadly force was suspect and that is probable cause for arrest. If the cops show up and Zimmerman is beat up all to hell and clothes are torn and ripped and there are serious wounds, then sure. But there was no evidence of imminent death or great bodily harm at all.

EXACTLY.

If Zimmerman had been in an actual epic fight to the death where his only real recourse was shooting Martin, he would have looked like a guy who'd been in a fight to the death -- torn clothing, scrapes and scratches all over his body, blood, etc. but there is none. Anywhere.

In fact, less than an hour after this supposed fight to the death where he felt so threatened that he had to shoot and kill an unarmed kid, the guy is not only dressed in unstained clothes that isn't ripped and which doesn't have blood all over it, but he's up and walking around of his own volition, without being led or guided by police.

Either Zimmerman is Wolverine or he's full of shit about what happened.

617 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:04:24pm

re: #616 Lidane

Either Zimmerman is Wolverine or he's full of shit about what happened.

And he sure aint no Wolverine.

This isn't a national story because a paranoid gun toting racist shot a kid. Its a story because the police department gave the shooter the benefit of doubt and let him walk when they had every reason to arrest him and let the courts sort it out. Attempting to discern the technicalities within subsections of the penal code is not what we pay the police to do.

618 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:06:23pm

re: #616 Lidane

I am just not sure if you are in the "no wounds at all" or the "not enough wounds" columns.

619 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:07:48pm

re: #618 Buck

I'm in the "dead body on the ground + fired weapon = a possible crime" camp.

The cops should have done their goddamn jobs. It should not have taken a social media push weeks after Trayvon Martin's death to force the issue.

620 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:08:07pm

re: #611 Mich-again

The only way that Zimmerman could use legally use deadly force was that the deadly force was required to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm.

Actually SYG allows him to use lethal force anywhere he's allowed to be based on the highly subjective reasonableness of his fear of the above. Even if the deadly force was not, strictly speaking, "required" to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm, his fear, if deemed reasonable, is enough. Another clause of the law disallows his arrest unless the police investigation provides probable cause that the force used wasn't lawful. Everything is flipped in the favor of the last man standing, since his word is the only one the police hear.

621 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:11:19pm

re: #614 Buck

Seriously? Didn't I already answer that for you?

#586

So then we should consider the paramedics no more reliable than any other witnesses when considering this case?

622 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:11:56pm

I've had worse shaving cuts than the injuries Zimmerman allegedly had. The whole thing is a joke. Now we have people freeze framing surveillance videos from the internet to make a case that perhaps there was a mini butterfly band aid on the guy's neck covering a life threatening laceration.

Zimmerman must be the biggest puss ever if he thought he actually had received life threatening injuries.

623 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:13:47pm

re: #622 Mich-again

I've had worse shaving cuts than the injuries Zimmerman allegedly had. The whole thing is a joke. Now we have people freeze framing surveillance videos from the internet to make a case that perhaps there was a mini butterfly band aid on the guy's neck covering a life threatening laceration.

Zimmerman must be the biggest puss ever if he thought he actually had received life threatening injuries.

All I'll say is, given the evidence so far, if Zimmerman truly believed his life in danger, then he's not fit to wear the badge he was working towards. At this point, even if he walks away from this a free man, he can go ahead and give up on any chance of ever being in law enforcement.

624 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:14:03pm

re: #622 Mich-again

Zimmerman must be the biggest puss ever if he thought he actually had received life threatening injuries.

He carried a sidearm as a civilian and was so goddamn paranoid that he called 911 at least once a week in the past year. The guy was a Dirty Harry wannabe gun fetishist who ignored the 911 dispatcher and pursued someone when he shouldn't have.

625 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:15:17pm

re: #622 Mich-again

I don't think anyone says he had life threatening injuries. Only that he thought his life was in danger when his gun was exposed and he was threatened.

There is a difference. You don't actually have to sustain life threatening injuries before you fear for your life.

626 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:18:08pm

re: #625 Buck

I don't think anyone says he had life threatening injuries. Only that he thought his life was in danger when his gun was exposed and he was threatened.

There is a difference. You don't actually have to sustain life threatening injuries before you fear for your life.

Based upon the video and witness testimony, Zimmerman could not have "reasonably believed" he was in danger of great bodily harm or dying. If anything, Trayvon probably has a stronger argument than Zimmerman.

627 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:20:18pm

re: #625 Buck

You don't actually have to sustain life threatening injuries before you fear for your life.

Buck, that explanation would give every paranoid person in Florida a free pass to kill anyone they want to kill.

628 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:21:33pm

re: #625 Buck

I don't think anyone says he had life threatening injuries. Only that he thought his life was in danger when his gun was exposed and he was threatened.

His brother is on record saying that if his head had been slammed into the concrete a few more times, he would have been relegated to a life of diapers and being spoonfed.

There is simply no way in hell that Zimmerman was injured anywhere close to that level. If he had been, he sure as fuck wouldn't have been in the police station less than an hour after his supposed epic fight to the death. He would have been in the ER.

There is a difference. You don't actually have to sustain life threatening injuries before you fear for your life.

I'll believe that Zimmerman was in fear for his life when Trayvon Martin comes back from the dead and says that he threatened Zimmerman. Nothing that has been shown so far suggests that there was any sort of life threatening fight.

629 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:22:06pm

re: #621 Targetpractice

So then we should consider the paramedics no more reliable than any other witnesses when considering this case?

Hmmm maybe I wasn't clear enough. Let me repeat myself for the third time:

If you were the investigator, you would look at ALL the evidence, and you would get a sworn statement from all the witnesses and you would do everything you could to corroborate them.

I placed the word "all" in caps so that you would not misunderstand and thought I meant only some of the evidence. I then repeated the word all in reference to witness sworn statements.

Maybe I made a mistake when I didn't use the word "all" again when I said "corroborate them". Maybe you needed me to say "corroborate all of them"?

Otherwise I think you have asked the same question three times and got the same answer all three times.

630 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:26:14pm

re: #626 Targetpractice

Based upon the video and witness testimony, Zimmerman could not have "reasonably believed" he was in danger of great bodily harm or dying. If anything, Trayvon probably has a stronger argument than Zimmerman.

Well that is your opinion, and even though you haven't seen all the evidence, you are entitled to it. However there are other people, who do have access to all the evidence, and have the correct education and experience in this matter who will actually make the decision.

631 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:26:22pm

re: #629 Buck

Hmmm maybe I wasn't clear enough. Let me repeat myself for the third time:

If you were the investigator, you would look at ALL the evidence, and you would get a sworn statement from all the witnesses and you would do everything you could to corroborate them.

I placed the word "all" in caps so that you would not misunderstand and thought I meant only some of the evidence. I then repeated the word all in reference to witness sworn statements.

Maybe I made a mistake when I didn't use the word "all" again when I said "corroborate them". Maybe you needed me to say "corroborate all of them"?

Otherwise I think you have asked the same question three times and got the same answer all three times.

And you've been about as clear as pigshit as to how you went from refuting witnesses to what paramedics did that night to what an investigator would do. Witnesses are unreliable and at least one has stated he saw no injuries, there's nothing from paramedics in the way of reports or testimony that would indicate that Zimmerman was wounded at all, and the investigators were leading people by the nose to fit Zimmerman's version of events.

So what exactly is to be refuted when all the evidence is in doubt?

632 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:28:42pm

re: #628 Lidane

If his head had actually been slammed into the pavement and Zimmerman had shown any effects at all of a concussion he would have been taken to a hospital. There is zero chance a paramedic would just release a person with a potential closed head injury. And it doesn't take much at all these days to trigger a potential concussion diagnosis. Did you black out? Did you see stars? are you dizzy? is your vision blurred? is your memory unclear at all? That paramedics cleared him to go with the police is evidence that he showed no signs of a head getting slammed into the ground.

633 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:29:38pm

re: #629 Buck

No. You look at enough evidence to suggest that a crime has been comitted. Then you arrest. Evidence gathering does not stop at that point. Yes, the burden is on the police and prosecution to prove that a crime has been committed. Which is how it always is...

634 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:30:40pm

re: #630 Buck

Well that is your opinion, and even though you haven't seen all the evidence, you are entitled to it. However there are other people, who do have access to all the evidence, and have the correct education and experience in this matter who will actually make the decision.

Yes, and I'm not at all impressed with the decision they've made so far to believe that he was beaten so badly that he feared for his life, yet less than an hour later was walking around as if he was perfectly fine. Barring EMS reports that they used a dermal regenerator on him and that they laundered his clothing at the scene, there is no evidence that the man had reason to believe his life was in danger.

635 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:31:17pm

re: #631 Targetpractice

all the evidence is in doubt

Really? I suppose some people doubt all the evidence.

I am not refuting any witness testimony. I never said that I was.

636 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:32:24pm

re: #634 Targetpractice

he was beaten so badly that he feared for his life

Again I don't think anyone is say that.

637 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:33:57pm

In the court you are innocent until proven guilty.

But when the cops show up at the scene and you are in public holding a gun that was just used to kill an unarmed person and you have no obvious injuries, then you get arrested, period.

But please, feel free to toss up a word salad to tell me why the cops were justified in letting a killer just walk away..

638 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:34:05pm

re: #585 ProGunLiberal

You're back!

639 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:34:09pm

re: #636 Buck

Again I don't think anyone is say that.

Ummm yes they are. That's the only thing that keeps Zim out of jail.

640 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:34:51pm

re: #636 Buck

Again I don't think anyone is say that.

Well, yes, someone must be saying that Zimmerman was beaten badly enough to fear for his life...otherwise the SYG law wouldn't be applicable.

641 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:35:37pm

re: #639 Altar Boy of Darwinism

Ummm yes they are. That's the only thing that keeps Zim out of jail.

I think the cop wiping something off of his hand onto his pants is keeping Zim out of jail. Shades of an overall trend.

642 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:35:56pm

re: #635 Buck

Really? I suppose some people doubt all the evidence.

I am not refuting any witness testimony. I never said that I was.

No, you said to prove that he was never injured, all the witness testimony that he was had to be refuted. I have stated that witness testimony is unreliable and that police were leading witnesses to reach the conclusions that matched Zimmerman's story.

So, what about their testimony needs to be refuted to prove Zimmerman wasn't injured?

643 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:39:04pm

re: #636 Buck

Again I don't think anyone is say that.

If not, then what have they been saying? You've got Zimmerman's lawyer saying that his nose was broken and his scalp lacerated. You've got the cops telling the press that he was "decked" by Martin's punch and his head repeatedly slammed into the ground. His brother's saying he was one hit to the head away from being fed with a spoon.

If they're not saying he was beaten so badly that he feared for his life, then what are they saying?

644 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:41:03pm

re: #633 Altar Boy of Darwinism

No. You look at enough evidence to suggest that a crime has been comitted. Then you arrest. Evidence gathering does not stop at that point. Yes, the burden is on the police and prosecution to prove that a crime has been committed. Which is how it always is...

I see no evidence that the police didn't look at the evidence they had at the time. They took his gun and took him handcuffed to be questioned.
They also secured the scene with crime scene tape. They started a crime scene contamination log. They called the Major Crimes to respond. They obtained statements from all the witnesses on the scene, and canvassed the neighbours. They stayed and turned the investigation over to SPD Major Crimes.

However to say that you automatically arrest is simply not true.

645 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:43:04pm

re: #643 Targetpractice

If not, then what have they been saying? You've got Zimmerman's lawyer saying that his nose was broken and his scalp lacerated. You've got the cops telling the press that he was "decked" by Martin's punch and his head repeatedly slammed into the ground. His brother's saying he was one hit to the head away from being fed with a spoon.

If they're not saying he was beaten so badly that he feared for his life, then what are they saying?

None of the statements you quote is saying that he was beaten so badly he feared for his life. His father says he feared for his life only when his gun was exposed and he was threatened.

646 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:44:02pm

THEY USED CRIME SCENE TAPE! JOB WELL DONE!!

647 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:46:04pm

re: #642 Targetpractice

No, you said to prove that he was never injured, all the witness testimony that he was had to be refuted. I have stated that witness testimony is unreliable and that police were leading witnesses to reach the conclusions that matched Zimmerman's story.

So, what about their testimony needs to be refuted to prove Zimmerman wasn't injured?

I am not answering you any more on this subject. I think I have answered you multiple times. You either are trying to play some kind of sick game or simply do not understand me. However your lack of understanding does not mean I didn't answer.

648 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:46:51pm

re: #645 Buck

None of the statements you quote is saying that he was beaten so badly he feared for his life. His father says he feared for his life only when his gun was exposed and he was threatened.

And his father is, at best, getting his knowledge from the events of that night second hand. You'll forgive me if I think his father less than reliable on the subject.

649 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:46:57pm

The Sanford Florida policemen on duty conspired to to give the benefit of doubt to a paranoid asshole who killed an unarmed kid for no good reason instead of arresting the killer and forcing him to make his case for self defense. That sums up the issue. In the end its not about Zimmerman, its about a corrupt or perhaps just an incompetent police force.

650 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:47:52pm

re: #649 Mich-again

The Sanford Florida policemen on duty conspired to to give the benefit of doubt to a paranoid asshole who killed an unarmed kid for no good reason instead of arresting the killer and forcing him to make his case for self defense. That sums up the issue. In the end its not about Zimmerman, its about a corrupt or perhaps just an incompetent police force.

My vote, in light of the past two weeks, is incompetency that's been compounded by CYA tactics.

651 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:49:18pm

re: #648 Targetpractice

Zimmerman's father is less of a trusted source of information on this event than is a random person on the street or a dog in the window for that matter. Might as well hand him some pom-poms so he can shake them while he plays the part of cheerleader.

652 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:50:28pm

re: #88 jamesfirecat

How many more experts do you want?

I don't care how many, I just want them to present their evidence in a court of law. This is interesting, but irrelevent. It's all irrelevent until we get this into court.

653 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:50:48pm

re: #644 Buck

I see no evidence that the police didn't look at the evidence they had at the time. They took his gun and took him handcuffed to be questioned.
They also secured the scene with crime scene tape. They started a crime scene contamination log. They called the Major Crimes to respond. They obtained statements from all the witnesses on the scene, and canvassed the neighbours. They stayed and turned the investigation over to SPD Major Crimes.

However to say that you automatically arrest is simply not true.

If the Sanford Police Dept. did such a stand-up and competent job handling this case, why did Trayvon's body sit in a morgue for three days before his parents were notified? Cops had the kid's cell phone, but they couldn't figure out who his parents were?

Actually it's that sort of Barney Fife policing that brought the Feds down to Sanford in the first place.

654 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:50:53pm

re: #648 Targetpractice

And his father is, at best, getting his knowledge from the events of that night second hand. You'll forgive me if I think his father less than reliable on the subject.

Everyone is getting their knowledge second hand. That is MY point. However, when repeating then second hand story, you should not exaggerate. No one is saying that he was beaten so badly that he feared for his life. That would be an exaggeration at best, a lie at worst.

655 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:51:13pm

re: #650 Targetpractice

My vote, in light of the past two weeks, is incompetency that's been compounded by CYA tactics.

Incompetency, check. CYA tactics, check. Racists who didn't think anyone would care all that much that a black kid in a hoodie ended up dead. check.

656 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:51:53pm

re: #653 palomino

If the Sanford Police Dept. did such a stand-up and competent job handling this case, why did Trayvon's body sit in a morgue for three days before his parents were notified? Cops had the kid's cell phone, but they couldn't figure out who his parents were?

Actually it's that sort of Barney Fife policing that brought the Feds down to Sanford in the first place.

I don't know. Maybe he password protected his phone? I don't know.

657 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:52:01pm

re: #106 Buck

Objection, making statements not in evidence.

First, Buck, you're not in court, and you have no grounds on which to object, nor anyone to object to.

Secondly, there is very substantial evidence that Zimmerman was stalking Martin. That, at least, is hard to doubt.

658 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:52:43pm

re: #650 Targetpractice

My vote, in light of the past two weeks, is incompetency that's been compounded by CYA tactics.

Lucky for the justice system you don't get a vote.

659 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:54:01pm

re: #654 Buck

No one is saying that he was beaten so badly that he feared for his life. That would be an exaggeration at best, a lie at worst.

That is the only legal way he can justify killing Trayvon Martin. If you think it is a lie or even just an exaggeration than we agree that Zimmerman should be in jail facing charges already.

660 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:54:25pm

re: #654 Buck

Everyone is getting their knowledge second hand. That is MY point. However, when repeating then second hand story, you should not exaggerate. No one is saying that he was beaten so badly that he feared for his life. That would be an exaggeration at best, a lie at worst.

So, if we're not being told that he was beaten so badly that he feared for his life, then why the lawyer's statements, the "leaks" to the press, or even telling the press out loud what Zimmerman said happened to him? If it's not to say that he was beaten so badly that he feared for his life, which would be justification under SYG to use deadly force, then what was the point of it all?

661 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:54:26pm

re: #654 Buck

Everyone is getting their knowledge second hand. That is MY point. However, when repeating then second hand story, you should not exaggerate. No one is saying that he was beaten so badly that he feared for his life. That would be an exaggeration at best, a lie at worst.

How many people have to tell you the exact same thing before it sinks in? The SYG law is (a big part of) the reason there was no arrest. In order for a suspect to avail himself of the SYG law, he has to have a feeling that his life was being threatened at the time he shot in supposed self-defense.

662 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:54:46pm

re: #657 SanFranciscoZionist

First, Buck, you're not in court, and you have no grounds on which to object, nor anyone to object to.

Secondly, there is very substantial evidence that Zimmerman was stalking Martin. That, at least, is hard to doubt.

Based on what you know maybe. You will excuse me if I think the people with all the evidence and the education, training and experience should be given the time to determine that.

663 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:55:04pm

re: #658 Buck

Lucky for the justice system you don't get a vote.

Unlucky for the system is that those who do get a vote decided to abdicate their responsibility. The reason why remains to be seen.

664 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:55:29pm

re: #659 Mich-again

That is the only legal way he can justify killing Trayvon Martin.

That is not true.

665 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:56:59pm

re: #661 palomino

he has to have a feeling that his life was being threatened at the time he shot in supposed self-defense

Ok, does he have to be beaten so badly that he feared for his life?

666 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:58:34pm

re: #662 Buck

I think the people with all the evidence and the education, training and experience should be given the time to determine that.

The police on the scene had all the evidence, education, training and experience required to arrest Zimmerman. Apparently they also had some other unnamed personal characteristic that negated all of that other stuff.

667 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:58:40pm

re: #656 Buck

I don't know. Maybe he password protected his phone? I don't know.

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you have any clue how electronics work? Or are you just that desperate to stick up for the SPD?

The average 4-year old in America could tell you everything about Trayvon Martin after spending 5 minutes with his phone. And NO ONE on the SPD is as smart as a 4-year old?

There are also these big international corporations, sometimes called "phone companies." One of the things they do with no difficulty is assist police in ID'ing victims whose phones have been recovered.

668 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:00:17pm

re: #664 Buck

That is not true.

What is the other out for Zimmerman? Curious here. Do you actually think that because Martin allegedly saw Zimmerman's gun, that was justification for Zimmerman to kill him? Or is there some other angle?

669 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:01:15pm

re: #662 Buck

Based on what you know maybe. You will excuse me if I think the people with all the evidence and the education, training and experience should be given the time to determine that.

So then you're putting your full faith in the DOJ and FBI? And you'll be willing to accept whatever charges they want filed against Zimmerman?

670 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:01:41pm

re: #667 palomino

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you have any clue how electronics work? Or are you just that desperate to stick up for the SPD?

The average 4-year old in America could tell you everything about Trayvon Martin after spending 5 minutes with his phone. And NO ONE on the SPD is as smart as a 4-year old?

There are also these big international corporations, sometimes called "phone companies." One of the things they do with no difficulty is assist police in ID'ing victims whose phones have been recovered.

Well, I don't believe what you are saying about 4 year olds. However we don't know the story. We don't know if it might have been a Pay as you go cash phone. We don't know what they tried to do. However it just doesn't seem relevant to the case of George Zimmerman and his self defence claim.

671 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:03:03pm

re: #669 palomino

So then you're putting your full faith in the DOJ and FBI? And you'll be willing to accept whatever charges they want filed against Zimmerman?

OF COURSE!!!!!!! I am not here defending Zimmerman, or care about him in any way. If the authorities charge him I trust in them and the courts.

Will you accept it if he isn't arrested?

672 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:03:54pm

re: #665 Buck

Ok, does he have to be beaten so badly that he feared for his life?

Yes.

673 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:04:33pm

re: #672 palomino

Yes.

Well, you are wrong about that.

674 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:04:48pm

re: #402 Buck

OK, requested screen cap:

just a small white spot on his nose in the shape of a bandage.

Dude, I think that may be his nose. Got anything that substantiates that further?

675 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:05:52pm

re: #673 Buck

Well, you are wrong about that.

Considering Martin was unarmed, what would give Zimmerman reason to believe that he posed so much of a threat that lethal force was warranted?

676 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:06:31pm

re: #422 Buck

Actually that is not what GZ and his father say. We don't know what GZ says yet, but his father says that it only became life threatening when his son saw that Treyvon saw and made a comment about the firearm.

Why, exactly, did the situation become life threatening when Trayvon Martin noticed and stated that the man who had been following him against police advice, for no apparent reason, was carrying a firearm?

677 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:06:46pm

A trolling stone gathers no something something...

678 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:07:34pm

re: #673 Buck

Again, here is the bit from controlling Florida law..

1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony

679 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:07:54pm

re: #671 Buck

OF COURSE!!! I am not here defending Zimmerman, or care about him in any way. If the authorities charge him I trust in them and the courts.

Will you accept it if he isn't arrested?

Sure I will accept that because the DOJ and FBI are involved. Would I trust the Sanford PD? Probably not...for all the myriad reasons documented on this blog and elsewhere over the last few weeks.

680 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:07:58pm

re: #674 SanFranciscoZionist

Dude, I think that may be his nose. Got anything that substantiates that further?

Substantiates that I think I see a bandage (which is what the screen cap was for)? No.

Substantiates that the police officer who was first on the scene wrote in his report that Zimmerman was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head and received treatment from paramedics? Yes.

681 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:08:19pm

re: #673 Buck

Well, you are wrong about that.

No, you're wrong. As usual.

682 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:09:02pm

re: #675 Targetpractice

Considering Martin was unarmed, what would give Zimmerman reason to believe that he posed so much of a threat that lethal force was warranted?

As I have said MULTIPLE TIMES that Martin was going to take his gun and kill him with it.

683 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:09:31pm

re: #469 Dark_Falcon

At which point some people would hate on you, calling Robin a "traditionally white character".

Seriously though, while that would have kept Trayvon Martin alive, it would have also ensured his arrest. And unlike George Zimmerman, he would not have been treated with kid gloves. Instead he'd have been charged with assault and battery, the priorities of the Sanford Pd being clear.

But he would be alive.

That would be worth a lot to his mom and dad.

684 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:09:56pm

Hey Buck, Its not that often that a pair of 2004 vintage lizards square off. ha.

685 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:10:22pm

re: #682 Buck

As I have said MULTIPLE TIMES that Martin was going to take his gun and kill him with it.

What makes you think that's what happened?

686 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:10:59pm

So now we have this. He saw my gun so I had to kill him!

687 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:11:23pm

re: #682 Buck

As I have said MULTIPLE TIMES that Martin was going to take his gun and kill him with it.

And what reason would Martin have to for that gun if it was holstered?

688 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:11:35pm

re: #678 Mich-again

Again, here is the bit from controlling Florida law..

1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony

right, nothing about having to be beaten so badly that he feared for his life.

689 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:11:43pm

re: #686 Mich-again

So now we have this. He saw my gun so I had to kill him!

So ass-backwards it's laughable.

690 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:13:06pm

re: #685 palomino

What makes you think that's what happened?

I am not saying that is what happened. I was asked what would give Zimmerman reason to believe that he posed so much of a threat that lethal force was warranted.

691 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:13:58pm

re: #651 Mich-again

Zimmerman's father is less of a trusted source of information on this event than is a random person on the street or a dog in the window for that matter. Might as well hand him some pom-poms so he can shake them while he plays the part of cheerleader.

Which is only to be expected. This is his son.

But he's not handling the situation well at all, and his weird 'dialogue' for Martin pretty much blew any chance I had of taking him seriously.

692 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:14:06pm

re: #684 Mich-again

Hey Buck, Its not that often that a pair of 2004 vintage lizards square off. ha.

I don't know who you are. Did you change your nickname?

693 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:17:05pm

re: #688 Buck

right, nothing about having to be beaten so badly that he feared for his life.

No, that's exactly what it says...it uses other words, because in English (like most languages) there are many synonyms that can convey the same meaning even though the actual words aren't the same.

Here's the quote from the law: "such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself"

How and why would someone "prevent imminent death to himself" without fearing, i.e. recognizing a danger, to his life?

Reading comprehension should be your friend. You seem to have an estranged relationship with it.

694 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:18:16pm

re: #662 Buck

Based on what you know maybe. You will excuse me if I think the people with all the evidence and the education, training and experience should be given the time to determine that.

Amazingly, Buck, I agree. I want to see what the Feds say. It's just that unlike you, I'm not arguing until I'm blue in the face to say that the information available to us doesn't paint a increasingly disturbing picture.

695 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:18:54pm

re: #664 Buck

That is not true.

Really? He does not have to have been in reasonable fear of his life for this to be a justifiable shooting?

696 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:19:45pm

re: #688 Buck

So let me get this all straight.. If you chase and confront an individual in a public place and a conflict ensues in which you receive an injury that requires no treatment at all (or perhaps a tiny butterfly band aid we can't see on a police department surveillance tape) = great bodily harm = justification to kill the person you originally chased.

I don't know, that just seems kind of problematic to me.

697 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:20:18pm

re: #665 Buck

Ok, does he have to be beaten so badly that he feared for his life?

That or 'great bodily harm'.

Fla. Stat. § 776.012. Use of force in defense of person

A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

698 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:21:41pm

re: #692 Buck

I don't know who you are. Did you change your nickname?

Never. I go back to the days of Bigel, Rayray, Reaganite,..
Heck I was the guy that first called Fjordman a racist dickhead and got Spencer so pissed he flounced.
The question is. Who. Are. You.

699 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:22:07pm

re: #679 palomino

Sure I will accept that because the DOJ and FBI are involved. Would I trust the Sanford PD? Probably not...for all the myriad reasons documented on this blog and elsewhere over the last few weeks.

If the DOJ and the FBI say the shooting was justified, I'll have no choice but to accept that.

However, if they say there isn't enough evidence after the Sanford PD fucked it all the hell up to proceed, I will not take that as evidence that the shooting was justified, merely that there is not enough to proceed on.

700 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:22:09pm

re: #693 palomino

No, that's exactly what it says...it uses other words, because in English (like most languages) there are many synonyms that can convey the same meaning even though the actual words aren't the same.

Here's the quote from the law: "such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself"

How and why would someone "prevent imminent death to himself" without fearing, i.e. recognizing a danger, to his life?

Reading comprehension should be your friend. You seem to have an estranged relationship with it.

Well we disagree. You read that the person must already have been beaten so badly that he feared for his life, I read that they only need to PREVENT such a bad beating (or bodily harm).

You ask: "How and why would someone "prevent imminent death to himself" without fearing, i.e. recognizing a danger, to his life?"

All I am saying is that a person need not have already been beaten badly in order to fear for their life.

701 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:22:56pm

Buck, would you agree to the following proposition? It's not a good idea for an armed civilian to pursue a suspect when there's no evidence that person has committed a crime.

702 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:24:37pm

re: #682 Buck

As I have said MULTIPLE TIMES that Martin was going to take his gun and kill him with it.

Why would he believe that, and why would he think Martin could take his weapon?

703 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:25:19pm

re: #688 Buck

right, nothing about having to be beaten so badly that he feared for his life.

Death or great bodily harm. GBH does not mean getting the snot beat out of you.

704 Mich-again  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:27:53pm

re: #703 SanFranciscoZionist

Death or great bodily harm. GBH does not mean getting the snot beat out of you.

Martin did have that bag of Skittles and a can of Arizona Iced Tea... I hear when you mix those two together it can create a tremendous explosion.

Oh wait, that's Mentos and Diet Pepsi. Nevermind.

705 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:28:48pm

re: #695 SanFranciscoZionist

Really? He does not have to have been in reasonable fear of his life for this to be a justifiable shooting?

That is not what I said.

I said he does not have to be beaten so badly that he feared for his life.

706 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:29:10pm

If the reason for Zimmerman fearing his life was in danger was because Martin went for his gun, then the question then becomes how did Martin know Zimmerman was armed?

707 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:31:17pm

re: #706 Targetpractice

If the reason for Zimmerman fearing his life was in danger was because Martin went for his gun, then the question then becomes how did Martin know Zimmerman was armed?

I don't know, I guess we should read the report of the officer who interviewed him in the police station that night.

In other words get all the evidence and stop guessing.

708 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:33:00pm

re: #702 SanFranciscoZionist

Why would he believe that, and why would he think Martin could take his weapon?

I don't know. However his father has put forth what he says his son told him. That Martin threatened Zimmerman when he saw the gun.

709 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:33:20pm

re: #700 Buck

Well we disagree. You read that the person must already have been beaten so badly that he feared for his life, I read that they only need to PREVENT such a bad beating (or bodily harm).

You ask: "How and why would someone "prevent imminent death to himself" without fearing, i.e. recognizing a danger, to his life?"

All I am saying is that a person need not have already been beaten badly in order to fear for their life.

There's no disagreement to be had here, at least not on this particular issue. The timing of your beating is irrelevant. The relevant portion is whether, at the time you killed, you were reasonably in fear of death.

The rest is subjective, for a jury to decide. If you've already been struck by your assailant, however, you've got a much stronger case for self-defense than if you were protecting yourself from anticipated, but not yet delivered, punches.

710 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:34:41pm

re: #707 Buck

I don't know, I guess we should read the report of the officer who interviewed him in the police station that night.

In other words get all the evidence and stop guessing.

Based upon what's been told and "leaked" to the press from the SPD so far, it seems that whatever lying in his testimony is not going to be earth-shattering. Not to mention it's still his testimony against that of a dead man.

Really, what do you have against our guessing?

711 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:35:33pm

re: #708 Buck

I don't know. However his father has put forth what he says his son told him. That Martin threatened Zimmerman when he saw the gun.

Is it not reasonable to fear, and thus threaten (as a means of self-preservation), a stranger at night who approaches you with a gun?

712 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:36:14pm

re: #709 palomino

There's no disagreement to be had here, at least not on this particular issue. The timing of your beating is irrelevant. The relevant portion is whether, at the time you killed, you were reasonably in fear of death.

The rest is subjective, for a jury to decide. If you've already been struck by your assailant, however, you've got a much stronger case for self-defense than if you were protecting yourself from anticipated, but not yet delivered, punches.

There we go. That is all I have been saying all along. However before a jury decides, our system of justice asks that the District Attorney decide if charges should be made.

713 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:37:49pm

re: #706 Targetpractice

If the reason for Zimmerman fearing his life was in danger was because Martin went for his gun, then the question then becomes how did Martin know Zimmerman was armed?

Also, assuming this is true, should Zimmerman be allowed to get away with having willfully created the very hazard he then "reacted" to?

714 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:38:13pm

re: #711 palomino

Is it not reasonable to fear, and thus threaten (as a means of self-preservation), a stranger at night who approaches you with a gun?

Not absolutely. Depends. In this case we are not sure anyone approached Martin.

715 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:41:08pm

re: #714 Buck

Not absolutely. Depends. In this case we are not sure anyone approached Martin.

"Are you following him?"

"Yes."

716 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:42:24pm

re: #714 Buck

Not absolutely. Depends. In this case we are not sure anyone approached Martin.

Except for the fact that Martin was actually approached by someone. You'd know that if you paid attention:

[Link: www.kansascity.com...]

717 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:43:34pm

re: #710 Targetpractice

Really, what do you have against our guessing?

I don't give a shit what you do. You can guess, make up stuff, read tea leaves, drop acid and recite chapters from Diary of Anne Frank.

All exactly and equally not relevant to George Zimmerman, Martin and the Sanford Police.

718 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:44:20pm

re: #715 Altar Boy of Darwinism

"Are you following him?"

"Yes."

following is not approaching

719 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:46:55pm

re: #718 Buck

And being a deliberately dense troll isn't the same as presenting an actual argument.

If you want to defend Zimmerman, fine. Just admit that's what you're doing.

720 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:46:57pm

re: #717 Buck

I don't give a shit what you do. You can guess, make up stuff, read tea leaves, drop acid and recite chapters from Diary of Anne Frank.

All exactly and equally not relevant to George Zimmerman, Martin and the Sanford Police.

According to whom?

721 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:48:11pm

re: #718 Buck

following is not approaching

And obtuse is more than just an angle.

722 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:49:30pm

re: #716 Lidane

Except for the fact that Martin was actually approached by someone. You'd know that if you paid attention:

[Link: www.kansascity.com...]

I have been paying attention. Not a fact. Only what his girlfriend told the family lawyer. Not even what she told the police, not even a sworn statement.

You'd know that if you paid attention.

723 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:50:07pm

re: #720 Targetpractice

According to whom?

Your guesses? According to me.

724 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:50:53pm

re: #719 Lidane

And being a deliberately dense troll isn't the same as presenting an actual argument.

If you want to defend Zimmerman, fine. Just admit that's what you're doing.

Nonsense. That might be what you want me to be doing.

725 Lidane  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:52:20pm

re: #724 Buck

No, it's what you ARE doing. It's what you've been doing all along.

You're defending him, and desperately trying to find some way to excuse what happened. It's right there in all your posts, whether you want to admit it or not.

726 palomino  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:53:06pm

re: #712 Buck

There we go. That is all I have been saying all along. However before a jury decides, our system of justice asks that the District Attorney decide if charges should be made.

And the system works fairly well when you have competent people in charge.

But in this case, not only was there incompetence involved, there were disagreements on the force as to whether GZ should have been charged. I know local PD's don't like it when the Feds get involved, but sometimes there's no other way to deal with a high profile case that may have been botched.

(Trayvon's body on a slab for 3 days? That's police malpractice in and of itself.)

727 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:53:56pm

re: #725 Lidane

No, it's what you ARE doing. It's what you've been doing all along.

You're defending him, and desperately trying to find some way to excuse what happened. It's right there in all your posts, whether you want to admit it or not.

No, that is NOT what I am doing. And you saying it isn't going to change it.

It is 2 am here, and I am going to bed.

728 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:54:04pm

Almost 8 hours later and the thread is still alive and kicking.

729 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:54:35pm

re: #723 Buck

Your guesses? According to me.

Then let me be perfectly honest and upfront: I don't give a blue fuck what you think of my guesses or what you consider "relevant" to this case. If you feel that you need to defend George Zimmerman, feel free to. But stop hiding behind this "Wait for all the facts to come out" bullshit. I heard that for days from other defenders of his before the "leaks" about Trayvon's suspension, when suddenly the speculation ran wild about what he was doing that would cause Zimmerman to consider him "suspicious." I'm stealing hearing it from other boards about how the "big question" of this case is where the jewelry came from and whether he once took a swing at a bus driver.

730 Mocking Jay  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:56:26pm

re: #728 Eclectic Infidel

Almost 8 hours later and the thread is still alive and kicking.

Every once in a while you just feel like ignoring "don't feed the troll" and set up a damn buffet.

731 Buck  Sat, Mar 31, 2012 11:56:30pm

re: #729 Targetpractice

So I am guilty because of what you heard other people say.

Well, we are all alike I suppose.

/

732 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 12:01:46am

re: #731 Buck

So I am guilty because of what you heard other people say.

Well, we are all alike I suppose.

/

If you are "guilty" of anything, it's that you wish to argue the points of the case while at the same time insisting on a "wait and see" approach. Or Buck, in simpler terms, you're "guilty" of hypocrisy.

733 palomino  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 12:06:04am

re: #729 Targetpractice

Then let me be perfectly honest and upfront: I don't give a blue fuck what you think of my guesses or what you consider "relevant" to this case. If you feel that you need to defend George Zimmerman, feel free to. But stop hiding behind this "Wait for all the facts to come out" bullshit. I heard that for days from other defenders of his before the "leaks" about Trayvon's suspension, when suddenly the speculation ran wild about what he was doing that would cause Zimmerman to consider him "suspicious." I'm stealing hearing it from other boards about how the "big question" of this case is where the jewelry came from and whether he once took a swing at a bus driver.

Maybe a black kid stole Buck's lunch money 40 years ago, and he's never gotten over it.

Seriously, though, we all come at this with certain prejudices. Having been born and raised in TX, my initial reaction was that a trigger-happy white cop (turns out he's only a wannabe) overreacted and shot an innocent black kid. Maybe that's wrong, but anyone with a knowledge of US history would know that such an occurrence has been far from abnormal over the years.

The blaming and shaming of Trayvon has been despicable. I'ts the same mentality that blames rape victims based on their clothing or behavior. Total bullshit. Women aren't asking to be raped, and teens aren't asking to be shot by pretend neighborhood watchmen.

734 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 12:48:45am

re: #705 Buck

That is not what I said.

I said he does not have to be beaten so badly that he feared for his life.

He could, instead...what? Have feared that his gun would be taken from him?

735 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 12:49:24am

re: #708 Buck

I don't know. However his father has put forth what he says his son told him. That Martin threatened Zimmerman when he saw the gun.

You will forgive me if I don't consider the word of the shooter's father, quoting the shooter, as good evidence in this case.

736 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 12:51:16am

re: #722 Buck

I have been paying attention. Not a fact. Only what his girlfriend told the family lawyer. Not even what she told the police, not even a sworn statement.

You'd know that if you paid attention.

Yes, that is what she said. Just like Zimmerman's father says that Trayvon Martin groaned 'you got me' after being shot point-blank in the chest.

737 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 9:31:36am

re: #735 SanFranciscoZionist

You will forgive me if I don't consider the word of the shooter's father, quoting the shooter, as good evidence in this case.

I don't either. However it is an answer to your question. In the end, the "shooter" was questioned by the authorities, witness statements were taken, evidence gathered. People with experience, training, education and authority are gathering and processing the real evidence.

738 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 9:34:17am

re: #733 palomino

Maybe a black kid stole Buck's lunch money 40 years ago, and he's never gotten over it.

Fuck you. You want to make this about race? You want to call me a racist?

The is the biggest shit move of all, and you saved it up.

739 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 9:36:28am

re: #738 Buck

Fuck you. You want to make this about race? You want to call me a racist?

The is the biggest shit move of all, and you saved it up.

Oh gee, the guy who likes to throw around false accusations of bigotry complains about false accusations of bigotry.

740 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 9:42:34am

re: #739 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

he doesn't back it up, he just throws the bomb out there. It is defamatory and without any merit.

741 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 9:42:55am

re: #740 Buck

he doesn't back it up, he just throws the bomb out there. It is defamatory and without any merit.

Just like yours.

742 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 9:43:50am

re: #741 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Just like yours.

Really? When was that?

743 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 9:44:18am

re: #742 Buck

Really? When was that?

Don't play dumb.

744 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 9:47:33am

re: #743 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Don't play dumb.

I can't keep track of you with your changing your nick. When did I just throw it out without backing it up with your own words? You got me using pejorative terms for people based on their race? You or this asshole have me using an ethnic slur or racial slur? Even one bigoted comment?

No. Not one.

745 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 9:49:43am

re: #744 Buck

When did I just throw it out without backing it up with your own words?

Again, don't play dumb. The case has been discussed above, with links. You've never made a coherent argument for your accusation, this amounts to just throwing it out and not backing it up.

746 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:03:19am

re: #745 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Again, don't play dumb. The case has been discussed above, with links. You've never made a coherent argument for your accusation, this amounts to just throwing it out and not backing it up.

When you get to decide what is "a coherent argument", you get to be prosecutor and judge both. You do admit that I made an argument, it just wasn't coherent. That is more than palomino did.

For the record, it is my opinion and the opinion of others that calling someone a fundie is a pejorative, and a slur.

You used the following terms:

fundie apologetic comic book
non-scholarly Christian apologetics.
a Christian-slanted book by a self-confessed Biblical inerrantist

And that was in that one thread.

Substitute "Muslim" for "Christian", "islamist" for "fundie" and "Koran" for "biblical" and you would be banned.

747 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:05:08am

re: #745 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

What was your nick then? Creeping Diversity?

748 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:06:35am

re: #746 Buck

LOL, way to put words in my mouth. No, you never made an argument, coherent or not. A string of out of context bits and pieces without an explanation of what is supposed to be bad about them does not amount to an argument.

You used the following terms:

fundie apologetic comic book
non-scholarly Christian apologetics.
a Christian-slanted book by a self-confessed Biblical inerrantist

And that was in that one thread.

Substitute "Muslim" for "Christian", "islamist" for "fundie" and "Koran" for "biblical" and you would be banned.

Nope, I guarantee I wouldn't be banned, moreover, I would gladly use

Islamist apologetic comic book
non-scholarly Muslim apologetics.
an Islamic-slanted book by a self-confessed Quranic inerrantist

in a proper context, i.e. if somebody was using a religious source instead of a scholarly source to argue a secular point.

749 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:17:01am

re: #748 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

in a proper context

That you think there is proper context for bigoted comments says more about you that it does me.

Maybe you don't know that "Fundie" is a slur?

750 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:21:44am

re: #749 Buck

That you think there is proper context for bigoted comments says more about you that it does me.

Maybe you don't know that "Fundie" is a slur?

Fundie is a perfectly normal word, which I use to refer to religious fundamentalists of all religions, and sometimes to certain extreme atheist activists. There's nothing bigoted about labeling fanatics in a pejorative way, since it is based on the actual extreme views that they hold.

You haven't shown any bigoted comments, which makes your accusation of bigotry a false one, so you're shown to be a hypocrite.

751 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:24:51am

re: #750 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

You haven't shown any bigoted comments, which makes your accusation of bigotry a false one

Again, you get to be prosecutor and judge both. I think I have listed multiple comments. Again more than you or anyone else has done.

752 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:26:03am

re: #751 Buck

Again, you get to be prosecutor and judge both. I think I have listed multiple comments. Again more than you or anyone else has done.

A string of out of context bits and pieces without an explanation of what is supposed to be bad about them does not amount to an argument.

753 Shvaughn  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:27:58am

Buck, congrats on breaking 10K!

754 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:29:32am

re: #751 Buck

Why do you keep suffering a delusion that you're in a court room?

In saying that Sergey is acting as a judge and a prosecutor, aren't you yourself doing the exact same thing in that moment-- judging him guilty of bigotry, the charge you're marking? It's a really insane thing to try to do.

The description of the sources you use for your biblical historicity were correctly described. Your sources are out-of-date, the scholarly portion of them have been largely overturned, two of your sources are creationists, and they all set out with the aim of proving the historicity of the bible, rather than approaching it from a neutral position. They were written by Christian fundamentalists, and they are completely out of date.

755 Shvaughn  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:30:16am

re: #754 Obdicut

Why do you keep suffering a delusion that you're in a court room?

I was confused by that too.

756 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:34:12am

re: #752 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

A string of out of context bits and pieces without an explanation of what is supposed to be bad about them does not amount to an argument.

As list of, what I consider, bigoted comments that you wrote, used to back up my accusation that you made bigoted comments seems to me to be sufficient.

Obviously you disagree. That is fine. Again.... I did much more than palomino has to do.

Do I have to convince you? Nope, that would be a much too high a bar.

757 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:35:00am

re: #756 Buck

You didn't explain how any of them are bigoted, though.

758 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:35:12am

re: #756 Buck

As list of, what I consider, bigoted comments that you wrote, used to back up my accusation that you made bigoted comments seems to me to be sufficient.

Obviously you disagree. That is fine. Again... I did much more than palomino has to do.

Do I have to convince you? Nope, that would be a much too high a bar.

Nope, you haven't explained how they're bigoted, so you haven't backed up your accusation. Moreover, it is plainly false. You're a hypocrite.

759 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:38:14am

re: #755 Shvaughn

Why do you keep suffering a delusion that you're in a court room?

I was confused by that too.

These are expressions, meant to make a point. That you think they can only be used in courtrooms might mean you are a bit narrow minded.

760 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:40:10am

re: #759 Buck

Okay, can you explain how it doesn't apply to you as well, since you're presenting (with no actual explanation) the charge that Sergey is a bigot, and judging that charge to be true, in the same moment?

761 efuseakay  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:40:29am

I thought Treyvon's dad said the voice on the tapes was not his son... ???

762 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:40:29am

re: #754 Obdicut

Why do you keep suffering a delusion that you're in a court room?

You saying I am suffering a delusion? You have any qualifications other than an internet connection to make such a diagnosis?

/fake outrage to echo the fake outrage you present all the time when someone makes a similar comment about you.

763 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:42:01am

re: #762 Buck

What fake outrage, Buck? Can you provide an example of that?

764 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:44:02am

Sergey's a bigot! Bigot bigot bigot bigot.

That's my proof.

765 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:45:12am

re: #764 Kronocide

Sergey's a bigot! Bigot bigot bigot bigot.

That's my proof.

You forgot semi-random out-of-context quotes!/

766 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:47:03am

Oh, and nice moving of the goalposts. Even if someone ever made a case that "fundie" is an offensive slur on the level of racist slurs, that would make people using the word anti-fundamentalist bigots. Not, you know, anti-Christian bigots.

767 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:48:37am

re: #760 Obdicut

Okay, can you explain how it doesn't apply to you as well, since you're presenting (with no actual explanation) the charge that Sergey is a bigot, and judging that charge to be true, in the same moment?

Yes, I was stating my opinion and backing it up with the offensive comments that he made. He is just stating his opinion and stating it as fact.

He says they weren't bigoted, so they weren't.

He might think that generalizing that Christian Fundamentalist are fanatics and extremist. And that there is nothing bigoted about labelling them in a pejorative way.

You might even agree with him, but his words are there for all to see. That is what I base my opinion on.

768 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:48:41am

Also, consider me an anti-Islamist bigot ;)//

769 blueraven  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:49:18am

re: #761 efuseakay

I thought Treyvon's dad said the voice on the tapes was not his son... ???

No, that is wrong. His Mom said it was him.

770 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:49:56am

re: #767 Buck

But you haven't explained how the quotes are objectively bigoted. And if it's all down to opinion, then everybody is free to assume you're a racist.

771 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:51:07am

re: #767 Buck

Again: Can you explain how what he said was actually bigoted?

772 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 10:51:58am

re: #771 Obdicut

Again: Can you explain how what he said was actually bigoted?

That you need to ask makes you a bigot yourself. And there's no need to prove anything to bigots!//

773 abolitionist  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 11:10:23am

re: #761 efuseakay

I thought Treyvon's dad said the voice on the tapes was not his son... ???

I think denial is understandable in this case. It's one of the stages of grief.

774 efuseakay  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 11:25:39am

re: #773 abolitionist

Definitely... but that seems like something silly to be in denial about. Then again, I'm not in the father's situation.

775 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 11:40:15am

re: #770 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

But you haven't explained how the quotes are objectively bigoted. And if it's all down to opinion, then everybody is free to assume you're a racist.

I actually have. However for the sake of further argument, did PublicityStunted have to show how her feeling about the word she was offended by was bigoted? The person who used it explained over and over that it was used in other parts of the world not as a slur.

I think (for example) that discounting and dismissing a persons work based only on his Christian faith is bigoted. I think you do feel that the work of a person with a strong Christian faith is inferior. That their fundamentalist beliefs are extreme and that this gets in the way of their credibility. I back that up with the comments you made. You can say you don't think those comments count. That I haven't proven my case. Well, I don't have to prove it to you. I don't really have to debate it with you. Everybody is free to assume anything they want. I expect that they will. However to write that someone a racist with out any backup what so ever is libel.

Now, you can continue to chase me to the ends of the earth with this. You can bring it up in every discussion I have on this site in order to distract me from the actual subject. You have this lie, Obdicut has his, and whats his face with his bells. I could do the same, but I consider it bad form. Constantly chasing someone with remarks from long previous threads where the discussion has been beaten to death. It is boring and accomplishes nothing what so ever. Move on. You think your comments were fine, I don't. You are not going to convince me, and I never expected to convince you.

If you think I am such an idiot why do you care what I think?

I am not going to chase palomino with this bullshit. I tell him to fuck off and I am done. I don't really give a shit about what he thinks. I only reply to it so that everyone know I don't accept his judgement of me.
Will I keep bringing it up to him over and over again? NO. That would only make him think I cared for even a millisecond in my life what he thought.

776 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 11:43:38am

re: #775 Buck

I think (for example) that discounting and dismissing a persons work based only on his Christian faith is bigoted.

Good thing we didn't do that, Buck. He is an archaeologist. Most of his theories-- most crucially, the chronology that he had worked out-- have been overturned. Even the letter you cited in supposed support of him said that his chronology was flawed.

And yes, it is a negative that he's starting from the position of proving that what is in the bible is real-- if you want to get at the actual truth, that assumption is going to get in the way.

777 Shvaughn  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 11:44:22am

re: #775 Buck

Wow, I had no idea that this thread was the ends of the earth!

778 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 11:52:17am

re: #777 Shvaughn

Wow, I had no idea that this thread was the ends of the earth!

So you are going to take every word as absolutely literal as well? No room for a common expression that describing an extreme case?

Interesting. I hope that people judge your posts with the same rigidity that you judge mine.

779 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 11:53:15am
I think (for example) that discounting and dismissing a persons work based only on his Christian faith is bigoted.

It sure is. And I did no such thing.

I admire numerous Christian scholars of religion (e.g. Bruce Metzger).

I did not dismiss your source because it was Christian. I dismissed it because it was an explicitly religious apologetic source, as explicitly follows from its text and from the extreme bias of its authors towards their religious point of view (whatever it might be; in this case, Biblical inerrantism, that cannot but skew the results).

I could have used the more general "religious" instead of "Christian" to the similar effect. In the phrase "non-scholarly Christian apologetic", the key words are "apologetic" and "non-scholarly", and "Christian" is a correct description of the branch of apologetics.

By the same token, if you were an atheist and quoted a book by Leo Taxil or Zenon Kosidowski, I would have rejected it on the basis that it is a non-scholarly and/or outdated atheistic apologetic (or agitprop). I would not be dismissing it because the authors are atheists.

So your accusation of bigotry was based on misunderstanding of my very simple words.

Also, you have finally made the argument. You haven't before this. And now I have refuted this argument.

780 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 11:55:30am

re: #776 Obdicut

Good thing we didn't do that, Buck. He is an archaeologist. Most of his theories-- most crucially, the chronology that he had worked out-- have been overturned. Even the letter you cited in supposed support of him said that his chronology was flawed.

And yes, it is a negative that he's starting from the position of proving that what is in the bible is real-- if you want to get at the actual truth, that assumption is going to get in the way.

Maybe you can see a difference between what you said and:

fundie apologetic comic book
non-scholarly Christian apologetics.
a Christian-slanted book by a self-confessed Biblical inerrantist

And then again, maybe not

781 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 12:02:26pm

re: #780 Buck

No, what he says is pretty accurate. You have to realize that believing in explicitly fundamentalist creationists for your historical accounts make you seem pretty weird, right?

782 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 12:05:00pm

re: #781 Obdicut

No, what he says is pretty accurate. You have to realize that believing in explicitly fundamentalist creationists for your historical accounts make you seem pretty weird, right?

Specifically, Biblical accounts. I'm pretty sure people holding such views are potentially capable of writing objective history as long as it doesn't concern the Biblical history.

783 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 12:09:37pm

re: #775 Buck

I actually have. However for the sake of further argument, did PublicityStunted have to show how her feeling about the word she was offended by was bigoted? The person who used it explained over and over that it was used in other parts of the world not as a slur.

Oh wow, you're stupid enough to bring that up? For reference, he downdinged this comment I made, with the most idiotic justification imaginable. (for which he also gave no evidence whatsoever, just like in this thread).

Moronic excuse-making and tap-dancing aside, the real reason he downdinged that comment (plus others) was because he was going through old threads, stealth-downdinging every single comment I made no matter what the content (that was the first time he did it. Second time, he got caught by ever-sharp CuriousLurker).

784 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 1:12:42pm

re: #783 Interesting Times

This isn't about me and my use of a downding. If downdinging a bunch of comments is a crime, then I am not the only one who is guilty. Good luck with that but I learned it from you.

HOWEVER, back to what was really being said.

I used this as an example when I pointed out:

"did PublicityStunted have to show how her feeling about the word she was offended by was bigoted?"

Did you have to prove that you were offended? Well, you should not have. I think it is as offensive as "Fundie". There are a whole bunch of slurs that seem to rhyme with that. Now just because Christianity is not a race we don't call it racist. Just like those posters in the 2001-2008 era kept saying slurs against Islam weren't racist. However they were bigoted.

SO, when someone says:

"Fundie is a perfectly normal word, which I use to refer to religious fundamentalists of all religions, and sometimes to certain extreme atheist activists. There's nothing bigoted about labeling fanatics in a pejorative way, since it is based on the actual extreme views that they hold."

They are saying that the person they referred to as Fundie was a fanatic that they were comfortable in labelling in a pejorative way.

A person is "labelled" as "extreme" because of their religious views.

Any of that sound familiar to you?

785 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 1:19:43pm

re: #784 Buck

Um, yeah, stupid, why can't a person with extreme religious beliefs be labeled as a person with extreme religious beliefs?

And what does that have to do with Christians? Are all Christians fundamentalists for you? If so, you're the bigot.

Also, it's very, very ironic that you downdinged PS' absolutely innocent comment, while decrying alleged hypocrisy, and now you engage in hypocrisy yourself.

786 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 1:39:27pm

re: #784 Buck

A person is "labelled" as "extreme" because of their religious views.

Any of that sound familiar to you?

Yes, Westboro Baptist Church.

Gosh you're dumb.

787 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 1:44:00pm

Christian Identity adults are sick fucks.

There, I just committed an act of bigotry according to Buck. Onoz! I'm bigoted against the neo-Nazi Christian identity church and vile Westboro Baptist church! Woe unto me!

788 Buck  Sun, Apr 1, 2012 5:21:24pm

re: #786 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)

Yes, Westboro Baptist Church.

Gosh you're dumb.

Was that who we were talking about? No.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh