Absurd Anti-Evolution Lawsuit Denied by Supreme Court

Science • Views: 3,127

You may remember our post about the Orwellian Evolution Lawsuit filed by a fundamentalist Christian schoolteacher in California, Jeanne Caldwell, who claimed that the Understanding Evolution website of the UC Museum of Paleontology violated the constitutional separation of church and state, because it tried to promote reconciliation between science and religion.

Reconciliation between science and religion? That will never do! Sue them! Shut them down! Infidels!

Well, today the Supreme Court shot this absurd lawsuit down in flames.

On March 23, 2009, the Supreme Court denied certiorari without comment to Caldwell v. Caldwell, which challenged the constitutionality of the Understanding Evolution website — a joint project of the University of California Museum of Paleontology and the National Center for Science Education. The San Francisco Chronicle (March 23, 2009) reports, “One page on Cal’s 840-page ‘Understanding Evolution’ web site says Darwinism can be compatible with religion. The four-year-old suit by Jeanne Caldwell said the government-funded web site contradicts her religious belief about the incompatibility of religion and Darwinism and amounts to a state position on religious doctrine that violates the Constitutional separation of church and state.”

Caldwell filed suit in the United States District Court for the Northern District of California in 2005. But her suit was dismissed in 2006 because she failed to allege that she had federal taxpayer standing, failed to sufficiently allege state taxpayer standing, and failed to establish that she suffered a concrete “injury in fact.” When she appealed the decision, the appellate court’s decision concluded, “Accordingly, we believe there is too slight a connection between Caldwell’s generalized grievance, and the government conduct about which she complains, to sustain her standing to proceed.” Reacting to the Supreme Court’s decision not to hear the case, a lawyer for the University of California told the Chronicle, “We believe the lower court rulings were correct, and we’re glad this ends the matter.”

Jeanne Caldwell was represented by Kevin T. Snider of the Pacific Justice Institute and her husband Larry Caldwell.

Meanwhile, the UC Museum of Paleontology has launched an excellent new site called Understanding Science. Check it out.

(Hat tip: Sharmuta.)

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873 comments
1 Mirage  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:43:33pm

One down ... how many to go?

2 Jim in Virginia  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:44:01pm

Good on 'em.
Thanks to that homophobic Antonin Scalia.
/

3 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:45:15pm

We needed the Supreme Court to sort this out? I'm ashamed it wasn't squelched from the get-go.

4 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:46:13pm

Thanks for the hat tip, Charles.

5 Jim in Virginia  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:46:23pm

OT but I love Kimberly Guilfoyle (Fox newsbabe) .

6 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:47:59pm

Oh I don't think that this ends it because these folks have evolved a damn hard head.

7 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:48:29pm
8 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:49:18pm

I learned a new word today : certiorari

Which is what they don't have, and I am pretty sure you need it.

9 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:50:04pm

When I talk to these people, I always use the term "creationists" to their face. Invariably, they correct me and say that the proper term is "intelligent design".

My response? "Oh, sorry. I'd forgot the movement had evolved."

10 Bloodnok  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:50:19pm

From the "Understanding Science" website (and because I like the definition):

Theory: In everyday language, the word theory is often used to mean a hunch with little evidential support. Scientific theories, on the other hand, are broad explanations for a wide range of phenomena. They are concise (i.e., generally don't have a long list of exceptions and special rules), coherent, systematic, and can be used to make predictions about many different sorts of situations. A theory is most acceptable to the scientific community when it is strongly supported by many different lines of evidence — but even theories may be modified or overturned if warranted by new evidence and perspectives.

11 Mirage  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:50:37pm

re: #6 unclassifiable

Oh I don't think that this ends it because these folks have evolved a damn hard head.

Don't you mean created with one? Weren't they designed to be myopic and obtuse. :)

12 BatGuano  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:50:56pm

The first amendment has many good things in it and Scotus sorted it out properly.

13 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:50:58pm

Konstitooshun haz been eated!
/

14 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:51:05pm
15 Emerald  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:52:48pm

And to think of all the money wasted on this suit that could have gone to support something worthwhile.

16 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:52:54pm

Amazing how an allegation that something that simply conflicts with a religious belief can be labeled as a religious belief, and get as far as the Supreme Court.

17 Lee Coller  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:53:09pm

Now we just need to get those who file these nuisance suits to pay the court costs. What a waste of time.

18 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:53:21pm

Reconciling religion and science in one sentence:

Evolution is God's Intelligent Design.

Done. Next I'll invent an off switch for Code Pink.

19 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:53:30pm
20 ronsfi  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:54:07pm

The Supreme Court...of SATAN!

21 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:54:26pm

re: #14 taxfreekiller

Absurd anti American "stimulus bill" approved by commie Democrats.

Orwellian excuses about A.I.G. bonuses by Chris Dodd and other commie fellow travelers do not sit well with the Americans.

I think you meant to say it didn't sit well with 35% of Americans

22 cronus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:56:19pm

Somewhat OT

Is this what creationists mean by "Academic Freedom"?

Oklahoma Legislature Investigates Richard Dawkins' Free Speech

Oklahoma's state legislature is investigating the University of Oklahoma for hosting a speech by evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins.

23 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:56:37pm
24 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:56:55pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

I think you meant to say it didn't sit well with 35% of Americans

However, it did sit well with Congress, who is wondering what else they tax 90% of.

25 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:57:33pm

From the SFGate:

Her husband, Larry Caldwell, an attorney who teamed up with the Pacific Justice Institute in Sacramento to file the suit, called the rejection of the suit "very unfortunate" since it was based on her eligibility to sue and not on the issue of government-funded statements on religious doctrine.

This is where the creationists and militant atheists meet? Government can't say anything about religion? No more "In God We Trust", etc.?

Somehow I doubt the Caldwells would go that far- they're hypocrites for it.

26 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:58:27pm

re: #11 Mirage

Don't you mean created with one? Weren't they designed to be myopic and obtuse. :)

That would be MD.

Moronic Design.

27 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:58:58pm
28 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:59:29pm

And our first down-dinger shows up.

29 MandyManners  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:59:51pm

Evolution?

Hat-tip: Sharmuta.

30 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 6:59:56pm

the saddest part of the whole thing is that this is even newsworthy...this little beast is getting very noisy and has to be watched constantly now...what a waste of time and resources

31 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:00:09pm

re: #24 gmsc


However, it did sit well with Congress, who is wondering what else they tax 90% of.


A suspicious looking man stopped by today and told me Speaker Pelosi wanted to look into your bank account.. Don't worry, it's probably nothing.

32 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:00:36pm
33 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:00:56pm
in 2006 because she failed to allege that she had federal taxpayer standing, failed to sufficiently allege state taxpayer standing, and failed to establish that she suffered a concrete “injury in fact.”

Having failed to establish as state and federal taxpayer, 0bama will now appoint her to a cabinet-level office.

34 davinvalkri  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:01:22pm

re: #28 Charles

And our first down-dinger shows up.

Where?

35 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:01:36pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

A suspicious looking man stopped by today and told me Speaker Pelosi wanted to look into your bank account.. Don't worry, it's probably nothing.

nice snag...I booked him

36 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:01:46pm

re: #29 MandyManners

Evolution?

Hat-tip: Sharmuta.

No- that's just the next great kookspiracy. It's proof, I tells ya. Proof! Please email to pamela.

37 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:02:28pm

re: #15 Emerald

And to think of all the money wasted on this suit that could have gone to support something worthwhile.

Like another congressional hearing about steroid use in baseball! Yeah!

/

38 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:02:31pm

re: #28 Charles

And our first down-dinger shows up.

It's HOOVER again. We already decided that much like the vacuum cleaner of the same name, he sucks!

39 Last Mohican  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:02:42pm

I have a question. Why is the San Francisco Chronicle using the word "Darwinism"?

I don't want to click the link to see the Chronicle's article in full, because I don't want to give them any ad revenue and risk slowing their bankruptcy.

40 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:02:59pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

A suspicious looking man stopped by today and told me Speaker Pelosi wanted to look into your bank account.. Don't worry, it's probably nothing.

Oh, goody – The only famous Marx withuot a sense of humor.

41 Steve Rogers  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:03:12pm

Just another reason to have a "Loser Pays" system to cut down on just these types of frivolous lawsuits.

42 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:03:39pm

re: #15 Emerald

And to think of all the money wasted on this suit that could have gone to support something worthwhile.

Worthwhile compared to this is making the world's largest twinkey.

43 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:03:50pm

re: #28 Charles

And our first down-dinger shows up.

Was that the crackle of a bug-zapper I just heard?

44 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:04:09pm

re: #34 davinvalkri

Where?

You can plus or minus the thread itself. Look up top under (hat tip)

45 davinvalkri  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:04:45pm

re: #44 sattv4u2

You can plus or minus the thread itself. Look up top under (hat tip)

Ah! Thank you!

46 Gang of One  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:04:51pm

Hoover,

You don't like the thread, change the channel.

/Jeez ...

47 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:05:14pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

A suspicious looking man stopped by today and told me Speaker Pelosi wanted to look into your bank account.. Don't worry, it's probably nothing.

Tell him that it's obviously OK to tax 90% of the bank accounts of Dems who supported the AIG bonus-theft bill, so try there.

Start with the Congressional Dems, they'll have more money.

48 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:05:16pm

re: #39 Last Mohican

I have a question. Why is the San Francisco Chronicle using the word "Darwinism"?

I don't want to click the link to see the Chronicle's article in full, because I don't want to give them any ad revenue and risk slowing their bankruptcy.

The link isn't the Chronicle- it's the National Center for Science Education.

49 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:05:47pm

re: #46 Gang of One

Hoover,

You don't like the thread, change the channel.

/Jeez ...

i don't think it has a keyboard. it never types anything, just clicks the minus button

50 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:05:53pm

re: #34 davinvalkri

Where?

Hoover. The OP. Unfortunately we won't hear from it again, I predict.

51 Sheepdogess  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:05:55pm

Maybe they should engage in the "Queen Mother of Poligamy" and require everyone of the opposite sex over the age of 16 to marry everyone over the age of 16 to the opposite sex.

52 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:06:54pm

re: #51 Sheepdogess

Huh?

53 Last Mohican  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:06:59pm

re: #48 Sharmuta

The link isn't the Chronicle- it's the National Center for Science Education.

Right, but then the NCSE quotes the Chronicle:

The San Francisco Chronicle (March 23, 2009) reports, "One page on Cal's 840-page 'Understanding Evolution' web site says Darwinism can be compatible with religion. The four-year-old suit by Jeanne Caldwell said the government-funded web site contradicts her religious belief about the incompatibility of religion and Darwinism and amounts to a state position on religious doctrine that violates the Constitutional separation of church and state."
54 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:07:25pm

re: #51 Sheepdogess

re: #52 Sharmuta

Huh?

What she said !

55 davinvalkri  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:07:34pm

re: #51 Sheepdogess

Maybe they should engage in the "Queen Mother of Poligamy" and require everyone of the opposite sex over the age of 16 to marry everyone over the age of 16 to the opposite sex.

Wrong thread, maybe? I don't wanna say "trolling..."

56 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:08:02pm

re: #29 MandyManners

Evolution?

Hat-tip: Sharmuta.

I thought that was DE-volution............

"We are Devo, do the worm."

57 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:08:12pm

re: #55 davinvalkri

Wrong thread universe , maybe? I don't wanna say "trolling..."


hey ,,, the post wasn't even CLOSE !

58 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:08:57pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

I think you meant to say it didn't sit well with 35% of Americans

BTW, the taxing of bonuses bill is now DOA, just a excuse to jaw bone.

59 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:09:50pm

re: #53 Last Mohican

The link in the story goes to the SFGate, though. As much as I hate the bias of the media, there isn't much of an option other than to use them as a source in many cases. They're hurting more in the print side, and the web side isn't making up for their losses.

60 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:10:53pm

re: #28 Charles

And our first down-dinger shows up.

Looks like two.

61 Egregious Philbin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:11:17pm

Intelligent Design is neither.

A good day for logic and reason.

Too bad the talibornagain will be back, endlessly.

I've debated many a creationist, and I always love when they try to explain the feasibility of Noah's Ark.

You ask "but how did the koalas get home when they only eat one type of leaf", or what did the lions eat? What of the snakes? Did they swim 6000 miles in cold seas to get back home? Then, you do the whole size of the ark, what about the insects and bacteria, etc. And it all comes down to "its a miracle!"

Sorry, I can't include "miracle" in my calculations, if I did, I'd have to create a constant for such fanciful beings Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Canadians.

62 Last Mohican  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:11:36pm

re: #28 Charles

And our first down-dinger shows up.

Can you blame him or her? After all, if you show up on LGF evolution threads and down-ding at least a hundred comments, even without posting anything of your own, you get automatic admission to heaven! For two hundred down-dings, your kids get in too. For a thousand down-dings, a lightning bolt comes down and smites your annoying neighbor who keeps playing his stereo too loud, and your gas tank magically refills itself for a year.

/Advertisement in Creationist Weekly

63 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:12:01pm

re: #60 J.D.

Looks like two.

great ,,, it's spreading!

someone get some penicillin

64 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:12:26pm

OT: UK population must fall to 30m, says Porritt

JONATHON PORRITT, one of Gordon Brown’s leading green advisers, is to warn that Britain must drastically reduce its population if it is to build a sustainable society.

Porritt’s call will come at this week’s annual conference of the Optimum Population Trust (OPT), of which he is patron.

The trust will release research suggesting UK population must be cut to 30m if the country wants to feed itself sustainably.

Porritt said: “Population growth, plus economic growth, is putting the world under terrible pressure.

“Each person in Britain has far more impact on the environment than those in developing countries so cutting our population is one way to reduce that impact.”

Good suggestion, Porritt! As soon as you remove yourself from the British population as an example, we'll see who we can get to follow!

Porritt is what Aesop would refer to as an old crab:

An Old Crab said to her son, "Why do you walk sideways like that, my son? You ought to walk straight."

The Young Crab replied, "Show me how, dear mother, and I'll follow your example."

The Old Crab tried, but tried in vain, and then saw how foolish she had been to find fault with her child.

Moral: Example is better than precept.

65 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:12:28pm

Good evening.

The market jumped about 7% today in response to Geithner coming out of his coma.

Now with another trillion being spent, you can really plan on dealing with high inflation soon.

Some things to contemplate:

1. The velocity of money (the number of times a dollar changes hands in a year) has been about 17 in recent years. In the last few months it dropped to 9, which is a major reason why we do not have a lot of inflation yet. But wait until velocity speeds back up to "normal" and you take into account that we have tripled the money supply in recent months.

2. The supply of cash and cash equivalents has grown by 23% since August 2008. Multiply that by a factor of 10 to adjust for our fractional banking system to get a feel for the inflationary impact we are looking at.

I expect there to be some profit taking tomorrow and the short sellers will not give up on their bear raids easily. But I would be thinking about how to deal with hyper inflation in for next year or so. Obama will not have the political courage to tackle the hyper inflation, which would require a second recession to slow down. So once this inflation gets going, it will stick around for a while.

66 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:12:34pm

re: #58 avanti

Grammar lesson:
Wrong. BTW, the taxing of bonuses bill is now DOA, just a excuse to jaw bone.

Should be:BTW, the taxing of bonuses bill is now DOA, just an excuse to jaw bone.

just a helpful hint.....you keep repeating this error.

67 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:12:44pm

I think there should be a rule that one cannot rate the OP (Charles has enough points anyway) until one has posted once on it.

68 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:13:01pm

re: #62 Last Mohican

Can you blame him or her? After all, if you show up on LGF evolution threads and down-ding at least a hundred comments, even without posting anything of your own, you get automatic admission to heaven! For two hundred down-dings, your kids get in too. For a thousand down-dings, a lightning bolt comes down and smites your annoying neighbor who keeps playing his stereo too loud, and your gas tank magically refills itself for a year.

/Advertisement in Creationist Weekly

it's a small thing...goes with the turf...relax

69 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:14:03pm

re: #67 Naso Tang

I think there should be a rule that one cannot rate the OP (Charles has enough points anyway) until one has posted once on it.

Careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Ya think we REALLY want to "hear" from some of these silent downdingers?

70 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:14:35pm

re: #69 sattv4u2

Careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Ya think we REALLY want to "hear" from some of these silent downdingers?

You bet your ass I do, and I'm not alone.

71 BlueCanuck  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:14:44pm

re: #61 Egregious Philbin

Almost gave you a ding up, then I saw the Canadian comment. :p

//

72 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:14:46pm

re: #58 avanti

BTW, the taxing of bonuses bill is now DOA, just a excuse to jaw bone.

A/AN

If the word following begins with a vowel sound, the word you want is “an”: “Have an apple, Adam.” If the word following begins with a consonant, but begins with a vowel sound, you still need “an”: “An X-ray will show whether there's a worm in it.” It is nonstandard and often considered sloppy speech to utter an “uh” sound in such cases.

When the following word definitely begins with a consonant sound, you need “a”: “A snake told me apples enhance mental abilities.”

Note that the letter Y can be either a vowel or a consonant. Although it is sounded as a vowel in words like “pretty,” at the beginning of words it is usually sounded as a consonant, as in “a yolk.”

Words beginning with the letter U which start with a Y consonant sound like “university” and “utensil” also take an “a”: “a university” and “a utensil.” But when an initial U has a vowel sound, the word is preceded by “an”: it’s “an umpire,” “an umbrella,” and “an understanding.”

See also “an historic.”

73 MandyManners  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:14:47pm

re: #36 Sharmuta

No- that's just the next great kookspiracy. It's proof, I tells ya. Proof! Please email to pamela.

And, Icke and Jones.

Geller, Icke and Jones. Sounds like a law firm to me.

74 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:15:02pm
Supreme Court denied certiorari without comment to Caldwell v. Caldwell

Love it.

/Slap

75 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:15:14pm

re: #69 sattv4u2

Careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Ya think we REALLY want to "hear" from some of these silent downdingers?

why not?....

76 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:15:50pm

re: #65 3 wood

So now we will have a bunch of pointless spending because your money ain't worth diddley in the future.

Goodbye my savings goodbye.

77 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:16:04pm

re: #63 sattv4u2

great ,,, it's spreading!

someone get some penicillin

NO!
It gives me hives all over!

78 Egregious Philbin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:16:17pm

re: #71 BlueCanuck

Almost gave you a ding up, then I saw the Canadian comment. :p

//

My grandfather was Canadian. He is dead now, he doesn't exist.

Ergo, all Canadians don't exist.

(Its a Miracle!)

79 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:16:45pm

re: #75 albusteve

why not?....

It'll make your hair hurt!

80 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:16:52pm

re: #71 BlueCanuck

Almost gave you a ding up, then I saw the Canadian comment. :p

//

If Australians are from Australia, and Indians are from India, how come Canadians aren't from Canadia?
;)

81 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:17:09pm

re: #40 gmsc

Oh, goody – The only famous Marx withuot a sense of humor.

I'm reminded of Groucho's comment after the 1929 crash. He said " I lost a million dollars in the crash...I would have lost more but that was all I had."

Eddic Cantor said "I'll be alright. My broker called and said that he would carry me. Him and 5 other pallbearers."

82 BlueCanuck  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:17:25pm

re: #78 Egregious Philbin

So what you are saying is that I am a figment of imagination?

/well Santa Claus is at the north pole, which does exist in Canadian territory...

*poof*

83 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:17:36pm

re: #78 Egregious Philbin

My grandfather was Canadian. He is dead now, he doesn't exist.

Ergo, all Canadians don't exist.

(Its a Miracle!)

bad attitude...maybe you should air out your contempt

84 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:17:53pm

Larry Caldwell has his own Wiki page.

85 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:18:10pm

re: #78 Egregious Philbin

Clever nic you've got there.

86 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:18:14pm

re: #65 3 wood

And how do interest rates follow?

87 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:18:23pm

re: #79 sattv4u2

It'll make your hair hurt!

alcohol did that once!

88 BlueCanuck  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:18:30pm

re: #80 gmsc

Now don't you start. It's too early in the evening for my brain to be pretzeled. Next thing I will start believing all this creationism tripe again.

89 Last Mohican  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:18:33pm

re: #65 3 wood

Thank you for that post. Can I ask a few questions?

1. Why is the velocity of money lower than normal now?

2. Can't the Fed just respond to the coming hyperinflation by raising interest rates, as it usually does to control inflation?

90 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:18:45pm

re: #61 Egregious Philbin

I like the nic and for the most part the snark. But this part..

Too bad the talibornagain will be back, endlessly.

is a bit much.

91 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:18:50pm

re: #76 unclassifiable

So now we will have a bunch of pointless spending because your money ain't worth diddley in the future.

Goodbye my savings goodbye.

I think we will see inflation of 15% to 20% a year for a while.

This reminds me so much of the Carter years. I wonder, what's the over/under on our first embassy getting torched? 3 months?

92 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:19:06pm

Well, how do we celebrate this victory?

I suggest we build a large bonfire and drink a lot of red wine! We must sacrifice a troll to the Darwin gods!

///

93 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:19:34pm

re: #84 Syrah

Larry Caldwell has his own Wiki page.

He seems to take great pride in clogging up the legal system with this nonsense.

94 Last Mohican  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:19:57pm

re: #91 3 wood

I think we will see inflation of 15% to 20% a year for a while.

This reminds me so much of the Carter years. I wonder, what's the over/under on our first embassy getting torched? 3 months?

Our embassies get torched all the time these days. Unfortunately I think the question now is when does our first city get destroyed.

95 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:20:13pm

re: #86 Naso Tang

And how do interest rates follow?

They will jump too as expected inflation is one of the components of interest rates. In addition, the Treasury will have this massive debt to finance, so they will have to offer a very high rate on T-bills to sell them.

96 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:20:54pm

re: #93 Sharmuta

He seems to take great pride in clogging up the legal system with this nonsense.

A front for the Discovery Institute? You are a detective aren't you? :=)

97 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:21:06pm

re: #88 BlueCanuck

Now don't you start. It's too early in the evening for my brain to be pretzeled. Next thing I will start believing all this creationism tripe again.

Sorry – didn't mean to pretzel the brain! Just having a little fun.

98 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:21:34pm

re: #94 Last Mohican

Our embassies get torched all the time these days. Unfortunately I think the question now is when does our first city get destroyed.

the Iranians won't waste a nuke on us if that's what your're worried about

99 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:21:44pm

re: #66 IslandLibertarian

Grammar lesson:
Wrong. BTW, the taxing of bonuses bill is now DOA, just a excuse to jaw bone.

Should be:BTW, the taxing of bonuses bill is now DOA, just an excuse to jaw bone.

just a helpful hint.....you keep repeating this error.

Crap, and I've been doing it for over 50 years. I did better in math though. :)

100 Egregious Philbin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:22:00pm

re: #90 Mich-again

I like the nic and for the most part the snark. But this part..

is a bit much.

I have PTSD from the Evo wars. I have seen stuff from the creationists that would curl your toes. While it is a bit of a shocker of a term, I assure you, in my mind and experiences, its very tame and restrained.

Ah, but who wants pudding?

101 BlueCanuck  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:22:01pm

re: #97 gmsc

No problem, just save it for later after I get my first coffee into me. So that should be in about 3 hours or so. Once I get to work.

102 Last Mohican  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:22:49pm

re: #98 albusteve

the Iranians won't waste a nuke on us if that's what your're worried about

If by "us" you mean America, I think they'd love to use a nuke on America. But I have to agree that Israel will be first.

103 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:22:52pm

re: #89 Last Mohican

Thank you for that post. Can I ask a few questions?

1. Why is the velocity of money lower than normal now?

2. Can't the Fed just respond to the coming hyperinflation by raising interest rates, as it usually does to control inflation?

Partial answer to 1: Credit and investment have slowed, and those being not only creators but movers of money as well, these have had a drastic effect on the money velocity.

104 Basho  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:22:53pm

re: #99 avanti

"An" before "history" is optional, though...

105 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:23:13pm

re: #58 avanti

BTW, the taxing of bonuses bill is now DOA, just a excuse to jaw bone.

That it got as far as it did will make people of ability less eager to stick their necks out.

The consequences of that abomination will be long lasting.

106 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:23:15pm

So, if one believes that one would be foolish to buy T bills now, which means they have to print money instead of borrow it, which means.....oh shit.

107 Egregious Philbin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:23:31pm

re: #85 J.D.

Clever nic you've got there.

A family name, somewhere back in the lineage me and Regeeee share DNA.

I lie awake late at night tormented by that thought.

108 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:23:48pm
109 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:23:49pm

Larry Caldwell's Quality Science Education for All

Quality Science Education for All (QSEA) is a creationist corporation based in Roseville, California. It promotes a pro-intelligent design agenda challenging evolution as taught in public schools using the Discovery Institute's Teach the Controversy method to discredit evolution while promoting intelligent design in public school science curricula. The founders of QSEA are currently appealing to the Supreme Court of the United States its Establishment Clause of the First Amendment suit against the University of California, Berkeley.

Part of the intelligent design movement, QSEA has offered assistance to interested parties in several states, including Minnesota, Texas, and California.

So- he's the affiliated legal arm of the DI?

110 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:23:53pm

World Baseball Classic on the tube (side note,, ALL high school/ college/ minor league players should be required to watch to see what FUNDAMENTAL baseball is)

Chinese Food

LGF

Except for the fact that I can't have an adult beverage to go along with this (I'm at work) this is PERFECT

111 Occasional Reader  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:24:19pm

Charles, why do you hate Christian?

/

112 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:24:34pm

re: #104 Basho

"An" before "history" is optional, though...

That is a weird case. Going by the standard rule, it's technically incorrect. However, it has been accepted by numerous prominent speakers, so it has come into common and acceptable usage.

113 Last Mohican  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:24:51pm

re: #95 3 wood

They will jump too as expected inflation is one of the components of interest rates. In addition, the Treasury will have this massive debt to finance, so they will have to offer a very high rate on T-bills to sell them.

So which wins, the higher interest rates, or the higher inflation? In other words, can I just put my money in a money market account and expect to do okay? Or do I need to eliminate my exposure to American stocks, bonds, and anything else valued in dollars? Will other countries have inflation similar to ours, or will their currencies remain more stable because their governments haven't decided to print such enormous amounts of money?

114 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:24:56pm

re: #91 3 wood

This reminds me so much of the Carter years. I wonder, what's the over/under on our first embassy getting torched? 3 months?


I have been thinking the same thing for a while now.
I hope* like hell it doesn't come to that.

115 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:25:05pm

re: #102 Last Mohican

If by "us" you mean America, I think they'd love to use a nuke on America. But I have to agree that Israel will be first.

they will use BOs term to their advantage....SA and Iraq are much easier victims, even before Israel

116 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:25:22pm

re: #112 gmsc

That is a weird case. Going by the standard rule, it's technically incorrect. However, it has been accepted by numerous prominent speakers, so it has come into common and acceptable usage.

An Istory.

The "H" is silent.

//

117 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:25:26pm

re: #109 Sharmuta

Larry Caldwell's Quality Science Education for All (QSEA)

Pronounced, appropriately enough, as "queasy".

118 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:26:03pm

re: #89 Last Mohican

Thank you for that post. Can I ask a few questions?

1. Why is the velocity of money lower than normal now?

2. Can't the Fed just respond to the coming hyperinflation by raising interest rates, as it usually does to control inflation?

1. People are holding onto their cash and not spending it, scared to death and waiting for the economy to settle down. Inventories are being used up, people are eating at home more, not going to movies, that sort of thing. Interestingly enough tough, we are burning gasoline like the Russians are in Jersey (more accurately, in the White House), so look for gas prices to jump quickly.

2. You are seeing the effect, not the cause. The way you control inflation is contract the money supply, which then indirectly raises rates. But that causes a recession. Obama will do everything he can to keep Bernanke from doing that.

2.

119 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:26:41pm

re: #91 3 wood

Ah thew Carter years. What misty eyed memories I have of that time.

Ted Kopel on every evening telling us of another day of international humiliation.

Double digit prime interest rates.

Hoarding.

People from Micigan living under Houston bridges because the auto industry was having its first death rattles (those double digit loan rates really help).

And a president in a sweater by a cozy fire telling us we al have to make sacrifices.

I have tears welling up right now.

/

120 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:27:51pm

re: #106 Naso Tang

So, if one believes that one would be foolish to buy T bills now, which means they have to print money instead of borrow it, which means.....oh shit.

Now you are getting it.

121 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:27:55pm

re: #116 Gus 802

An Istory.

The "H" is silent.

//

AN HISTORIC / A HISTORIC

You should use “an” before a word beginning with an “H” only if the “H” is not pronounced: “an honest effort”; it’s properly “a historic event” though many sophisticated speakers somehow prefer the sound of “an historic,” so that version is not likely to get you into any real trouble.

122 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:28:00pm
123 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:28:05pm

re: #108 taxfreekiller

avanti

[Link: www.marklevinshow.com...]

Liberty and Tyranny

get you a copy, see how the commie Democrat party will fall

I'll wait for the movie.

124 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:28:36pm

re: #121 gmsc

There you go. Perfect.

125 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:28:39pm

re: #119 unclassifiable

I have two cars so I will be able to switch plates if it comes to gas lines again.

126 Last Mohican  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:28:56pm

re: #119 unclassifiable

Ah thew Carter years. What misty eyed memories I have of that time.

Ted Kopel on every evening telling us of another day of international humiliation.

Double digit prime interest rates.

Hoarding.

People from Micigan living under Houston bridges because the auto industry was having its first death rattles (those double digit loan rates really help).

And a president in a sweater by a cozy fire telling us we al have to make sacrifices.

I have tears welling up right now.

/

And you know what the amazing thing is? This time, everyone is going to be shivering by their fireplaces, muttering "damn that Bush, it's all his fault."

127 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:29:57pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

I think you meant to say it didn't sit well with 35% of Americans

Pretty clever to change the subject.

128 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:30:10pm

re: #126 Last Mohican

And you know what the amazing thing is? This time, everyone is going to be shivering by their fireplaces, muttering "damn that Bush, it's all his fault."

How can we be shivering by the fireplace? Al Gores' Global Warming will save us !

129 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:30:54pm

re: #119 unclassifiable

I have tears welling up right now.


I can sympathize.
I have a little upchuck welling up.

130 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:31:10pm

re: #125 Syrah

That had to be the most galling part. Gasoline rationing in Texas.

131 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:31:32pm

re: #109 Sharmuta

Kudo's on the hat tip Sharm..

133 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:32:01pm

re: #125 Syrah

I have two cars so I will be able to switch plates if it comes to gas lines again.

Cool! I didn't think of that! We only had one car back then, and were lucky to have it...or anything much, really.

134 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:32:20pm

re: #130 unclassifiable

That had to be the most galling part. Gasoline rationing in Texas.

In the same vain, I am expecting water rationing in Western Washington.

135 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:32:26pm
136 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:32:38pm

re: #129 J.D.

I can sympathize.
I have a little upchuck welling up.

the Michigan car industry did it to themselves...I myself have zero sympathy then or especially now...they have not learned a thing

137 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:33:06pm

re: #113 Last Mohican

So which wins, the higher interest rates, or the higher inflation? In other words, can I just put my money in a money market account and expect to do okay? Or do I need to eliminate my exposure to American stocks, bonds, and anything else valued in dollars? Will other countries have inflation similar to ours, or will their currencies remain more stable because their governments haven't decided to print such enormous amounts of money?

There will be a spiral upwards for a while in rates as one gives rise to the other. You will have inflation around the world, if you think our economy is screwed up, go take a good gander at the UK and such with the exception of China.

Money markets won't keep up, neither will fixed income instruments. I won't tout specific stocks but I would look towards the energy sector as a whole, which will get real expensive real quick. Also other safe havens would include gold and commodities.

People got to eat.

138 cronus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:33:35pm

re: #65 3 wood

Thanks for the post. I've been worried about hyper-inflation for a couple weeks now. Is there any real defense against it investment-wise? I've been buying some commodity dependent stocks lately thinking they'll best be able to raise prices to coincide with inflation. But it's not a real hyper inflation strategy.

139 Occasional Reader  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:34:02pm

re: #65 3 wood

But I would be thinking about how to deal with hyper inflation in for next year or so.

And what are your thoughts on that?

140 jcm  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:34:04pm

re: #123 avanti

I'll wait for the movie.

Afraid to read something that will up set your world view?

141 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:34:04pm

I couldn't find any mention of this suit at the SCOTUS site. Trying to figure out how they are operating these days. Is Ruth Bader Ginsburg back to work or are the other eight trying to get by without a tiebreaker.

And I have to add, that web page is a train wreck. Pages are mislabeled. The search function sucks. Outdated material. All those law clerks and a sucky website. Here's an idea. Hire one less law clerk and replace them with a Webmaster.

142 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:35:08pm

re: #136 albusteve

the Michigan car industry did it to themselves...I myself have zero sympathy then or especially now...they have not learned a thing

I do, to some extent. They (the Big 3) have been held hostage by the unions for decades. Can you imagine what would have (or will ) happen if one of them said starting next quarter, we're NOT a union shop!

143 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:35:33pm

Caldwell's Roseville Joint Union High School District suit

In October 2005 Caldwell filed suit in California federal court claiming that he was unconstitutionally denied access to various forums to promote his "Quality Science Education" proposals. In Caldwell v. Roseville Joint Union High School District Caldwell alleged free speech, establishment clause, due process and equal protection violations because his proposals were not placed on the School Board's agenda, his complaints about the school district's biology textbook were rejected, and his proposals were not placed on the agenda of of the Curriculum Instruction Team in his children's high school. In September 2007 the California federal district court dismissed Caldwell's suit. In granting summary judgment to the school district, the court emphasized that "this case is not about whether a theory of intelligent design can or should be included in the science curriculum.... Rather, this case is about whether Larry Caldwell was denied access to speak in various fora or participate in certain processes because of his actual or perceived religious beliefs." Caldwell used in his proposed syllabus written material from the Discovery Institute's Cornelius Hunter and a video entitled Icons of Evolution based on Jonathan Wells' book by the same name, also from the institute.

Is it just me, or does this grievance theatre remind anyone else of another group?

144 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:35:44pm
145 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:36:15pm

re: #137 3 wood

Note to self:
Better get permanent fixed rate financing ASAP.

146 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:36:44pm

re: #142 sattv4u2

As Mark Steyn so aptly said today "GM is no longer an auto manufacturer, it is a retirement home with a small manufacturing wing". Most of its expenses are medical and pension.

147 Racer X  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:36:47pm

Political terminology explained:

Fiscal Responsibility = Never knowing which politician was responsible for stealing all of your money.

Bipartisan = Republicans caved in to the Democrats

Democrats are responsible for this mess = they didn't do enough to cover their tracks.

Republicans are responsible for this mess = they didn't do enough to stop the Democrats.

148 Last Mohican  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:36:49pm

re: #137 3 wood

Thanks for the tips! Like someone said earlier today, this site can be quite educational sometimes.

In case any figures are needed for this discussion, allow me to repost this graph, and this one.

149 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:36:56pm

I see your trying to educate an Navy man. It might be to hard, but their are good ways too do it. ; )

150 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:37:29pm

re: #141 Mich-again

Here's an idea. Hire one less law clerk and replace them with a Webmaster 14 year old puter geek.

151 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:37:33pm

re: #134 Syrah

In the same vain, I am expecting water rationing in Western Washington.

Global Warming is the problem there and obviously more taxes is the solution.

As for water ummm, what was the question again?

/your Obama administration at work

152 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:37:42pm

re: #143 Sharmuta

Caldwell's Roseville Joint Union High School District suit

Is it just me, or does this grievance theatre remind anyone else of another group?

Infidel! Our beliefs and actions are unique!

153 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:37:45pm

re: #142 sattv4u2

I do, to some extent. They (the Big 3) have been held hostage by the unions for decades. Can you imagine what would have (or will ) happen if one of them said starting next quarter, we're NOT a union shop!

US auto workers traditionally are the poster children for doing very little and making a fortune not doing it...it continues today...I could care less what hardships they have now

154 JacksonTn  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:37:51pm

re: #140 jcm

Afraid to read something that will up set your world view?

I would be like finding out your new girlfriend (for Avanti - Obama) who you are about to bring home to to meet Mom is a stripper ... and she just gave your Dad a lap dance last Thursday afternoon ...

155 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:37:58pm

re: #146 rawmuse

As Mark Steyn so aptly said today "GM is no longer an auto manufacturer, it is a retirement home with a small manufacturing wing". Most of its expenses are medical and pension.

Bingo

156 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:38:18pm
157 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:38:33pm

re: #152 jaunte

Infidel! Our beliefs and actions are unique!

I'm terrible. You should pray for me.

158 NYCHardhat  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:39:01pm
159 jcm  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:39:02pm

re: #156 taxfreekiller

keel hauling?

On a barnacle encrusted hull....

160 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:39:05pm

re: #100 Egregious Philbin

I have seen stuff from the creationists that would curl your toes.

Really? Have you seen them execute groups of women at the midfield line at a crowded soccer stadium? Or how about wrapping their kids in bombs and sending them off to blow themselves up? Thats the kind of stuff that curls my toes. But please, I'd love to hear about the Evo wars you have fought in.

161 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:39:09pm

re: #145 J.D.

Note to self:
Better get permanent fixed rate financing ASAP.

Congress can adjust those up for you. Now that they own 37% of one of the major banks, they have an interest to protect, and the power to do it.

162 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:39:10pm

re: #157 Sharmuta

With furrowed brow, and gritting teeth./

163 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:39:14pm

re: #139 Occasional Reader


First, I'd take my fixed income money and set up a ladder of FDIC insured CD's 30, 60, 90 days and so forth so I can climb the interest rate ladder with them real quick.

For equities I'd be looking at things that jump with inflation, like energy costs and other essentials for living that have an inelastic demand. Stay away from luxury items cause those will be the first things cut in an inflationary spiral when people are trying to pay the bills.

Look at gold and commodities.

Also, get to know the tax laws real good cause that will be a key with this Marxist in the White House.

164 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:39:41pm

re: #154 JacksonTn

I would be like finding out your new girlfriend (for Avanti - Obama) who you are about to bring home to to meet Mom is a stripper ... and she just gave your Dad a lap dance last Thursday afternoon ...

wtf?...

165 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:40:27pm

re: #144 taxfreekiller

3-wood

they got to eat, but the farms have to fertilize now and oops cost big now

the dumb ass's commie Democrats will end up rationing food supplies
just watch.

You may be dead on there. sir. It's like a circular firing squad, with the consumer in the middle.

166 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:40:38pm

re: #150 sattv4u2

I almost posted something like that but I thought better of it.

167 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:40:43pm
168 JacksonTn  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:40:54pm

re: #164 albusteve

wtf?...

Well, I meant to say IT would be like ..... and no I have never been in that situation ... I am not a man ...

Avanti's head would explode if he would take an honest look at Obama ... but he will not because he is ... in love ...

169 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:41:22pm

re: #166 Mich-again

I almost posted something like that but I thought better of it.

I have the advantage of never thinking before posting!

For that matter, never thinking before ANYTHING!

170 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:41:30pm

The down-dinger division is hard at work:

CJW, Gozer the Carpathian, Hoover

171 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:41:35pm

re: #145 J.D.

Note to self:
Better get permanent fixed rate financing ASAP.

Oh, absolutely.

Anybody out there still thinking of refinancing. Apply tomorrow. Rates are going to jump.

172 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:41:37pm

re: #162 jaunte

With furrowed brow, and gritting teeth./

I'm not feeling anything. Pray harder.

173 Racer X  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:41:47pm

Where are the Democrats putting their money?

174 alegrias  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:42:22pm

re: #153 albusteve

US auto workers traditionally are the poster children for doing very little and making a fortune not doing it...it continues today...I could care less what hardships they have now

* * * *
Remember the autoworkers in Right-to-Work states are NOT union fat cats getting paid to NOT work.

175 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:42:25pm

re: #140 jcm

Afraid to read something that will up set your world view?

No, caught Levin on Fox a few times, he did not change my world view. He's way too far right for my taste.

176 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:42:30pm

re: #138 cronus

Thanks for the post. I've been worried about hyper-inflation for a couple weeks now. Is there any real defense against it investment-wise? I've been buying some commodity dependent stocks lately thinking they'll best be able to raise prices to coincide with inflation. But it's not a real hyper inflation strategy.

re: #139 Occasional Reader

And what are your thoughts on that?

Gold is the standard response to inflation, which is why it's doing so well, lately.

177 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:42:39pm

re: #173 Racer X

Where are the Democrats putting their money?

Swiss bank accounts?

178 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:42:43pm

re: #170 Charles

The down-dinger division is hard at work:

CJW, Gozer the Carpathian, Hoover

And yet not one cogent thought posted by the triumverate!

179 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:42:51pm

re: #173 Racer X

Where are the Democrats putting their your money?


Better?

180 NYCHardhat  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:42:51pm

re: #173 Racer X

Where are the Democrats putting their money?

Hammers and sickles.

181 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:42:59pm

Canned and dry goods are cheap now.

Stock up. If everything works out and the economy booms, you will have a pantry full of food. If everything goes to hell and inflation prices food impossibly high, you will have a pantry full of food.

182 Occasional Reader  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:43:10pm

re: #163 3 wood

Thanks. What do you think about forex? Say, Swiss francs?

183 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:43:19pm

re: #147 Racer X

I bought Slobbering Love Affair, A : The True (and Pathetic) Story of the Torrid Romance Between Barack Obama and the Mainstream Media - Bernard Goldberg.

Looking forward to reading it.

184 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:43:22pm

re: #172 Sharmuta

I'm not feeling anything. Pray harder.

ha!...all hands man the Prayer Stations!

185 Mirage  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:43:24pm

re: #121 gmsc


AN HISTORIC / A HISTORIC

You should use “an” before a word beginning with an “H” only if the “H” is not pronounced: “an honest effort”; it’s properly “a historic event” though many sophisticated elitist speakers somehow prefer the sound of “an historic,” so that version is not likely to get you into any real trouble.

fixed

186 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:43:25pm

Hey Night Lizards! It chose to be coldish and wet today in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland.

Excellent post Charles! I perused the Understanding Science website and approve!

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

187 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:43:29pm

re: #163 3 wood

I think I missed the boat on gold already.

188 NYCHardhat  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:43:51pm

re: #170 Charles

The down-dinger division is hard at work:

CJW, Gozer the Carpathian, Hoover

I really don't see the point.

189 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:43:53pm

re: #161 Syrah

Congress can adjust those up for you. Now that they own 37% of one of the major banks, they have an interest to protect, and the power to do it.

joy

190 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:43:57pm
191 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:43:58pm

re: #148 Last Mohican

Thanks for the tips! Like someone said earlier today, this site can be quite educational sometimes

I've been trying to be a source of information for folks during this time of confusion. Hope it's been helpful.

192 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:44:22pm

re: #132 Alouette

Arkansas House okays kids drinking beer in religious ceremonies


That story turned out not to be at all what I was hoping for.

193 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:44:23pm

re: #173 Racer X

Where are the Democrats putting their money?

I think several have paid back taxes.

194 alegrias  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:44:45pm

re: #177 Sharmuta

Swiss bank accounts?

* * * *
In tax law writing Charlie Rangel's case, Dominican Republic/caribbean property.

195 BignJames  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:44:49pm

re: #183 J.D.

I bought Slobbering Love Affair, A : The True (and Pathetic) Story of the Torrid Romance Between Barack Obama and the Mainstream Media - Bernard Goldberg.

Looking forward to reading it.

No thanks....lived it.

196 Racer X  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:44:54pm

re: #183 J.D.

I bought Slobbering Love Affair, A : The True (and Pathetic) Story of the Torrid Romance Between Barack Obama and the Mainstream Media - Bernard Goldberg.

Looking forward to reading it.

Excellent read. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Spot on analysis of why this dumbass Obama was able to get elected leader of the free world with NO experience whatsoever.

197 NYCHardhat  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:45:04pm

re: #193 J.D.

I think several have paid back taxes.

Several. LMAO!

198 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:45:04pm

re: #193 J.D.

I think several have paid back taxes.

only those
A) vying for cabinet posts and
B) that got caught

199 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:45:31pm
200 albusteve  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:45:34pm

re: #174 alegrias

* * * *
Remember the autoworkers in Right-to-Work states are NOT union fat cats getting paid to NOT work.

tradition refers to the UAW

201 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:45:36pm

re: #173 Racer X

Where are the Democrats putting their money?

They are taking it from us, at fucking gun point.

202 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:45:57pm

re: #171 3 wood

Oh, absolutely.

Anybody out there still thinking of refinancing. Apply tomorrow. Rates are going to jump.

It's too early for me, so I hope it holds off. Better see if I can press the issue with my banker.

203 Egregious Philbin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:46:08pm

re: #160 Mich-again

Really? Have you seen them execute groups of women at the midfield line at a crowded soccer stadium? Or how about wrapping their kids in bombs and sending them off to blow themselves up? Thats the kind of stuff that curls my toes. But please, I'd love to hear about the Evo wars you have fought in.

I was in the great hyperbole war of 2002. It was rough.

204 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:46:21pm

re: #151 unclassifiable

Global Warming is the problem there and obviously more taxes is the solution.

As for water ummm, what was the question again?

/your Obama administration at work

Western Washington is essentially a rain forest. We are drowning in rain and water as a mater of course. Just the kind of thing that some clever leftist/environmentalist will insist is in short supply, requiring the authority and power of government to ration and control.

205 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:46:26pm

3 wood
taxfreekiller
speakers of truth
righteous.

206 jcm  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:46:32pm

re: #170 Charles

The down-dinger division is hard at work:

CJW, Gozer the Carpathian, Hoover

Gozer I've seen post a comment. Have CJW or Hoover posted comments?

207 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:46:54pm

re: #177 Sharmuta

Swiss bank accounts?

Nope – the days of secret Swiss bank accounts are over.

UBS signals the end of the secret Swiss bank account
[Link: www.iht.com...]

UBS Agrees to Pay $780M, Turn Over Swiss Banking Records
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

[Lest you think that words have meaning, here's a dose of oxymoron.]
Bank secrecy maintained despite UBS deal: Swiss FinMin
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

[The gun to their head. Also, the London Times (below) called this "kill the competition."]
U.S. raises stakes in showdown with UBS over Swiss bank secrecy
[Link: www.iht.com...]

[Note -- this has been developing for some time]
UBS closes Swiss accounts of US clients
[Link: business.timesonline.co.uk...]

208 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:47:02pm

re: #173 Racer X

Where are the Democrats putting their money?

GE stock for this one.

209 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:47:07pm

Meanwhile, Fox News is promoting that Christian Action Network (read: Jerry Falwell's loony revenge) bogus story about sekrit Moslem training camps in the US ... again.

The story that the FBI denounced and said was completely unfounded.

But hey, who cares about credibility? Pathetic.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

210 jcm  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:47:08pm

re: #175 avanti

No, caught Levin on Fox a few times, he did not change my world view. He's way too far right for my taste.

So upholding the Constitution is right wing?

211 Racer X  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:47:45pm

I would like to know where John Kerry has recently moved his investments? Chris Dodd? Obama? alGore? The Clintons?

You know they will not take losing their asses sitting down.

212 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:47:47pm

re: #196 Racer X

Excellent read. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Spot on analysis of why this dumbass Obama was able to get elected leader of the free world with NO experience whatsoever.

So it solves a mystery, more or less...
/

213 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:47:51pm

re: #206 jcm

Gozer I've seen post a comment. Have CJW or Hoover posted comments?

Did it have a noun? a verb? Was it legible?

214 Last Mohican  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:48:05pm

re: #191 3 wood

I've been trying to be a source of information for folks during this time of confusion. Hope it's been helpful.

Yes, it really is. Much appreciated.

215 mattm  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:48:28pm

One of the few time a agree with somethig from Berkley.

216 Mirage  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:48:35pm

re: #170 Charles

The down-dinger division is hard at work:

CJW, Gozer the Carpathian, Hoover

"Only a Carpathian would come back to life now and choose New York. Tasty pick, Bonehead. If you had brain one in that huge melon on top of your neck, you'd be living the sweet life out in Southern California's beautiful San Fernando Valley."

I think of that line every time I see Carpathian.

217 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:48:39pm

re: #203 Egregious Philbin

I was in the great hyperbole war of 2002. It was rough.

Hyperbole alone does not elevate an idiot to Taliban status.

218 jcm  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:49:17pm

re: #213 sattv4u2

Did it have a noun? a verb? Was it legible?

LOL! I don't recall that, but the nic I remember.

219 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:49:25pm

re: #211 Racer X

I would like to know where John Kerry has recently moved his investments? Chris Dodd? Obama? alGore? The Clintons?

You know they will not take losing their asses sitting down.

Pete Stark would be another one.

220 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:49:31pm

re: #182 Occasional Reader

Thanks. What do you think about forex? Say, Swiss francs?

Possibly, but understand that when you do that, you are putting your wealth into a room with a much smaller exit doorway if you want to get it back out. I am very concerned about the economic viability if the EU (like Iceland, only a bigger "splat" when it falls) and if it folds, you are going to have a stampede of wealth out of Europe and into dollars.

221 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:50:44pm

re: #198 sattv4u2

only those
A) vying for cabinet posts and
B) that got caught

It's still a growing number though, isn't it?

222 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:50:59pm

re: #187 unclassifiable

I think I missed the boat on gold already.

Get 10% of your portfolio in gold.

223 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:51:11pm

re: #209 Charles

Meanwhile, Fox News is promoting that Christian Action Network (read: Jerry Falwell's loony revenge) bogus story about sekrit Moslem training camps in the US ... again.

The story that the FBI denounced and said was completely unfounded.

But hey, who cares about credibility? Pathetic.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Good thing robert spencer is there to back them up with no evidence. ///

224 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:51:43pm

re: #209 Charles

Meanwhile, Fox News is promoting that Christian Action Network (read: Jerry Falwell's loony revenge) bogus story about sekrit Moslem training camps in the US ... again.

The story that the FBI denounced and said was completely unfounded.

But hey, who cares about credibility? Pathetic.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

I read Glenn Beck ratings are through the roof, higher then Bill O'reilly's. Fox is moving more toward the entertainment side IMHO.

225 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:51:55pm

re: #208 avanti

GE stock for this one.

omg

I have not much stock and traded in BNI for GE.

That's another thing we have in common.

226 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:52:10pm

re: #209 Charles

I keep meaning to listen to Beck's radio show. I've been pretty sour on what's happening with conservatives these days but I'm becoming fascinated by where it's going.

227 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:52:36pm

re: #209 Charles

Meanwhile, Fox News is promoting that Christian Action Network (read: Jerry Falwell's loony revenge) bogus story about sekrit Moslem training camps in the US ... again.

The story that the FBI denounced and said was completely unfounded.

But hey, who cares about credibility? Pathetic.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

That's an oft repeated unfounded story. Another recent one being the harvest mouse misinformation.

228 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:52:39pm

re: #145 J.D.

Note to self:
Better get permanent fixed rate financing ASAP.

I presume you mean on loans, not savings. But if enough people do that now, will it not help hold down future rates?

229 Occasional Reader  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:52:55pm

re: #220 3 wood

Possibly, but understand that when you do that, you are putting your wealth into a room with a much smaller exit doorway if you want to get it back out. I am very concerned about the economic viability if the EU (like Iceland, only a bigger "splat" when it falls) and if it folds, you are going to have a stampede of wealth out of Europe and into dollars.

Oh, I would most certainly NOT buy Euros. No way. Swiss francs, possibly yen.
Possibly some Canadian dollars, too.

230 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:52:55pm

re: #202 J.D.

It's too early for me, so I hope it holds off. Better see if I can press the issue with my banker.

Talk to them about doing an "advanced refinancing" and putting it into escrow until you are "ready".

231 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:53:18pm

excellent news. looking forward to seeing Scalia at my school next month

232 BethesdaDog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:53:20pm

Don't read too much into this. The Supreme Court didn't really "shoot it down." It just decided not to hear it. That means there was really not decided on the merits. There's a difference. Most cases that go to the Supreme Court don't get heard, i.e., the court decides not to grant the writ of certiorari.

That's not to say this was not a nutty lawsuit.

There are a lot of criteria that the court might apply in deciding whether a case is "cert worthy." For example, if there's a split among the circuits on the same issue of law, the Court will often grant cert to clear up the split. Sometimes, however, it will wait until all circuits address the issue. That could take a very long time.

Of course the Justices can also decline to grant the cert petition if the case is nutty, frivolous, not worth their time, or enough justices seem to believe there is no reason to reconsider a proper decision by the circuit court below. As I recall, it takes four justices to grant cert. The court grants very few cert petitions, perhaps much less than a hundred out of perhaps six or seven thousand petitions filed each year.

The best argument against the nutty suit is the 9th Circuit decision, which actually addressed it on the merits.

233 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:53:31pm

re: #221 J.D.

It's still a growing number though, isn't it?

I won't be satiated until I see Dodd, Rangle, Shumer, Pelosi and Frank in another line of "work"
I know there are others that are "worthy", but those five are to me particularly loathsome

ESPECIALLY Frank. I lived in his district 25 or so years ago. He was smarmy then, and worse now

234 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:53:41pm

re: #205 Kreuzueber Halbmond

3 wood
taxfreekiller
speakers of truth
righteous.

Very kind of you. I try.

235 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:54:10pm

Note to self:
re: #222 3 wood

Get 10% of your portfolio in gold.

What about diamonds?
/

More fun...

236 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:54:44pm

re: #223 Sharmuta

Good thing robert spencer is there to back them up with no evidence. ///

Shitbirds of a feather,
crap out counterproductive nonsense together.

237 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:54:52pm

re: #226 Killgore Trout

I keep meaning to listen to Beck's radio show. I've been pretty sour on what's happening with conservatives these days but I'm becoming fascinated by where it's going.

It's interesting- most on the right are quick to dismiss the talking heads on the left, but don't turn that same scrutiny on the talking heads on the right. They're a part of the same beast- MSM. It's all about ratings and selling a product. No one seems to care about ideological foundations, and really building a meaningful agenda.

238 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:55:07pm
239 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:55:31pm

re: #224 avanti

I read Glenn Beck ratings are through the roof, higher then Bill O'reilly's. Fox is moving more toward the entertainment side IMHO.

Where did you read that?

240 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:55:52pm

re: #222 3 wood

OK that's a diversification move and that's OK for later (we'll allow someone else to f' this up judging by our stellar economic training we are still not doing). I just need a little more false hope like today.

You're a good man 3 wood. It's almost like we need the Adam Smith tent revival.

241 Ojoe  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:56:05pm

The Gloaming. San Gabriel Mountains, Pacific time zone. Towercam.

Missed posting the sunset due to Scout meeting.

Will try tomorrow.

242 NYCHardhat  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:56:12pm

re: #237 Sharmuta

It's interesting- most on the right are quick to dismiss the talking heads on the left, but don't turn that same scrutiny on the talking heads on the right. They're a part of the same beast- MSM. It's all about ratings and selling a product. No one seems to care about ideological foundations, and really building a meaningful agenda.

except this place.

243 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:56:14pm

re: #227 Gus 802

What's the deal with the Harvest Mouse thing? (30 words or less please) I saw the reports that it was in the stimulus but I haven't been following.
My latest pet peeve is the bogus claim that the 90% tax on AIG bonuses is unconstitutional. It's not, but it's being repeated endlessly by blogs, msm and talking heads.

244 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:56:16pm

re: #232 BethesdaDog

Don't read too much into this. The Supreme Court didn't really "shoot it down." It just decided not to hear it.

Maybe it's just me, but when the Supreme Court says your case isn't worth hearing, that sounds an awful lot like "shooting it down."

245 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:56:32pm

re: #228 Naso Tang

I presume you mean on loans, not savings. But if enough people do that now, will it not help hold down future rates?

Yes. Our [relatively new] business loan. I have another that's fixed for another 7 years at a pretty low rate. Sometimes, the timing is better than others, as you know.

246 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:56:37pm

re: #228 Naso Tang

presume you mean on loans, not savings. But if enough people do that now, will it not help hold down future rates?

Not enough volume to matter when Obama is spending trillions we don't have.

247 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:57:14pm

re: #229 Occasional Reader

Oh, I would most certainly NOT buy Euros. No way. Swiss francs, possibly yen.
Possibly some Canadian dollars, too.

I've parlayed my entire future into Cuban Pesos, Iranian Rials and Venezuelan Bolívars....I think I am set for life now!

248 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:57:16pm

re: #235 J.D.

What about diamonds?

Nope. Too much variation in quality for me. But some like them.

249 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:57:18pm

re: #224 avanti

I read Glenn Beck ratings are through the roof, higher then Bill O'reilly's. Fox is moving more toward the entertainment side IMHO.

All news organizations have a strong entertainment component. While your point is well taken, I feel constrained to ask if you would apply the same comment you just said to Keith Olbermann. Much of what he does could be described as entertainment for moonbats.

250 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:57:22pm

re: #228 Naso Tang

And 3-wood is the one who would know the most about that of anyone here, I think.

251 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:57:31pm

re: #237 Sharmuta

Yeah, I see a lot of scrambling to score political points. Not many people concerned with solving problems.

252 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:57:38pm

re: #210 jcm

So upholding the Constitution is right wing?

Look at the Supreme court and the differences the justices have in upholding the Constitution. Some read it to give a privacy right to have a abortion, others see a right to school prayer, same document, different interpretations.

253 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:57:39pm
254 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:57:42pm

re: #233 sattv4u2

I won't be satiated until I see Dodd, Rangle, Shumer, Pelosi and Frank in another line of "work"
I know there are others that are "worthy", but those five are to me particularly loathsome

ESPECIALLY Frank. I lived in his district 25 or so years ago. He was smarmy then, and worse now

Pelosi to me looks like she is hooked on Xanax. The rest are just your garden-variety criminals who have the lawyer's touch of keeping the public at bay by making them all feel inferior and guilty. In the old days it was tar and feathers for these muckity-mucks.

255 Ojoe  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:57:56pm

re: #209 Charles

Ah, building up discredibility will bite us in the rear later too.

256 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:58:10pm

The blog moves fast with the new "auto" feature.

257 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:58:16pm

re: #231 spacejesus

excellent news. looking forward to seeing Scalia at my school next month

I would love to be there.

259 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:58:30pm

In next few months you will have to hold your money by the edges 'cause it'll still be drying.

260 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:58:58pm

re: #256 Killgore Trout

The blog moves fast with the new "auto" feature.

nahhh ,,, you're just older !

//

261 Occasional Reader  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:59:07pm

re: #244 Charles

Maybe it's just me, but when the Supreme Court says your case isn't worth hearing, that sounds an awful lot like "shooting it down."

Actually, B.Dog is right in that the denial of cert does not necessarily mean any "opinion" of the merits of the case.

262 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:59:15pm

re: #78 Egregious Philbin

My grandfather was Canadian. He is dead now, he doesn't exist.

Ergo, all Canadians don't exist.

(Its a Miracle!)

No. Ergo, all Canadians are dead.

263 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:59:28pm

re: #256 Killgore Trout

The blog moves fast with the new "auto" feature.

Actually, your perception is what has changed. Very few of us clicked the "New Comments" button as often as the "Auto" box updates it.

264 Ojoe  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:59:30pm

re: #254 JohnAdams

by making them all feel inferior and guilty.

Ha ha, that won't work on me, nor on most lizards.

Back later.

265 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:59:30pm

re: #256 Killgore Trout

I just noticed that. Thanks

And hank you Charles.

266 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:59:36pm

re: #225 J.D.

omg

I have not much stock and traded in BNI for GE.

That's another thing we have in common.

It's one stock that could double or triple in a year or two.

267 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 7:59:55pm

re: #233 sattv4u2

Think Robert Byrd.
Depressing...I know...

268 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:00:01pm

re: #240 unclassifiable

OK that's a diversification move and that's OK for later (we'll allow someone else to f' this up judging by our stellar economic training we are still not doing). I just need a little more false hope like today.

You're a good man 3 wood. It's almost like we need the Adam Smith tent revival.

What irritates me is have economics idiots like Obama and Geithner on the TV almost every day confusing the public on how economics actually works.

They are either intentionally lying or are complete fools, I can't figure out which.

269 Occasional Reader  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:00:39pm

re: #248 3 wood

Nope. Too much variation in quality for me. But some like them.

Okay. What about commemorative plates?

270 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:01:00pm

re: #256 Killgore Trout

Darn it you meant auto update not auto content check :)

PIMF Thank you Charles

271 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:01:03pm
272 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:01:12pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I see a lot of scrambling to score political points. Not many people concerned with solving problems.

Because scoring cheap shot points is easy. Thinking of solutions is tough.

273 NYCHardhat  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:01:25pm

re: #268 3 wood

What irritates me is have economics idiots like Obama and Geithner on the TV almost every day confusing the public on how economics actually works.

They are either intentionally lying or are complete fools, I can't figure out which.

intentionally lying

274 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:01:39pm

re: #268 3 wood

What irritates me is have economics idiots like Obama and Geithner on the TV almost every day confusing the public on how economics actually works.

They are either intentionally lying or are complete fools, I can't figure out which.

If the results are the same, does it really matter whether they are liars or idiots?

275 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:01:39pm

re: #264 Ojoe

Ha ha, that won't work on me, nor on most lizards.

Back later.

It's why we're all here, Ojoe!

276 wee fury  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:02:16pm

re: #253 taxfreekiller

Some bad and shoddy comments have been left there --

277 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:02:16pm

re: #268 3 wood

What irritates me is have economics idiots like Obama and Geithner on the TV almost every day confusing the public on how economics actually works.

They are either intentionally lying or are complete fools, I can't figure out which.

Intentionally lying.

278 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:02:17pm

re: #241 Ojoe

I was out there last Wed. - Sat.
The weather was superb, as usual, and I walked Angeles National, which is an interesting walk.

279 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:02:17pm

Tomorrow will be the 64th day of the Hussein regime.

Now they get it?!?!?!?!?!

280 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:02:44pm
281 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:03:17pm

re: #262 SanFranciscoZionist

No. Ergo, all Canadians are dead.

I thought William Shatner was looking a little gamey....Now I know why

282 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:03:26pm

re: #248 3 wood

Nope. Too much variation in quality for me. But some like them.



I
like them. Maybe not so much as investments, but nonetheless I like them!

283 JacksonTn  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:03:31pm

re: #279 NY Nana

Tomorrow will be the 64th day of the Hussein regime.

Now they get it?!?!?!?!?!


[Video]

Really .... it seems like only 6,444,444,444 days now ...

/cannot wait until the idiot is GONE ...

284 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:04:16pm

re: #274 Syrah

If the results are the same, does it really matter whether they are liars or idiots?

Liars connotes a collusion and conspiracy, which is really frightening. Idiocy connotes misguided delusion which might be possibly corrected or disarmed. Bad, but not as much.

285 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:04:31pm

re: #243 Killgore Trout

What's the deal with the Harvest Mouse thing? (30 words or less please) I saw the reports that it was in the stimulus but I haven't been following.
My latest pet peeve is the bogus claim that the 90% tax on AIG bonuses is unconstitutional. It's not, but it's being repeated endlessly by blogs, msm and talking heads.

You can either read it or not read. I've seen plenty of posts some of them in a row. If you don't want to read it then don't. Deal with it like an adult.

286 LGoPs  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:04:45pm

re: #254 JohnAdams

Pelosi to me looks like she is hooked on Xanax. The rest are just your garden-variety criminals who have the lawyer's touch of keeping the public at bay by making them all feel inferior and guilty. In the old days it was tar and feathers for these muckity-mucks.

I'd settle to see them being frog marched off Capital Hill.

287 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:04:57pm

re: #283 JacksonTn

Really .... it seems like only 6,444,444,444 days now ...

/cannot wait until the idiot is GONE ...

1,398 days to go..

288 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:05:11pm

re: #253 taxfreekiller

on the other hand none of these 28,800 are Obama or John Murtha support troops.

[Link: www.petitiononline.com...]

been looking for an avanti post there, have not found it yet

what number are you on there avanti?

I'm not on that list. If Murtha's service in the Marines and Congress earned him a award in the opinion of the Sec of the Navy, I'll deffer to his judgment.

289 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:05:24pm

re: #284 JohnAdams

Liars connotes a collusion and conspiracy, which is really frightening. Idiocy connotes misguided delusion which might be possibly corrected or disarmed. Bad, but not as much.

OK.

Liars are worse.

290 Rovers Return  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:05:28pm

Hi all. I am shug's wife.
This is one of my few posts. Sharmuta, my husband speaks highly of you and Mr Johnson and this blog. I actually read it a lot when he is logged in and posts but tonight he is at work so you all are hearing from me.
I am glad you are all fighting to keep science in the schools and to keep folklore for campfires and bedtime stories instead of in the classrooms.

291 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:05:54pm

One last point on economics to mull over.

There is the concept of "crowding out" that is going to start taking effect. At any given time, there is only so much credit available in the market for anybody to borrow. As the Fed's borrow more and more to fund their deficit spending, the soak up the available credit like a sponge, thus crowding out the private sector from being able to borrow. When that happens, business can't get credit to pay for expansion, mortgage rates rise and car loan rates rise and then the economy goes into "stagflation".

I think we will be hearing a lot about stagflation (economic stagnation and high inflation) in the next few years.

Now I've got to go get some rest. See you in the morning.

292 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:05:59pm

re: #269 Occasional Reader

Okay. What about commemorative plates?

I ought to downding you for that. lol

293 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:06:15pm

re: #286 LGoPs

What's a Frog March? Is that a military thing?

294 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:06:24pm

re: #269 Occasional Reader

Okay. What about commemorative plates?

Probably worth more than dollars.

295 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:06:29pm

re: #266 avanti

It's one stock that could double or triple in a year or two.

I must say I haven't seen it so low in forever.

296 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:06:49pm

re: #285 Gus 802

You can either read it or not read.


That's what I'm asking for. Can you direct me to a comment or article that explains what you're talking about?

297 NYCHardhat  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:06:49pm

re: #291 3 wood

One last point on economics to mull over.

There is the concept of "crowding out" that is going to start taking effect. At any given time, there is only so much credit available in the market for anybody to borrow. As the Fed's borrow more and more to fund their deficit spending, the soak up the available credit like a sponge, thus crowding out the private sector from being able to borrow. When that happens, business can't get credit to pay for expansion, mortgage rates rise and car loan rates rise and then the economy goes into "stagflation".

I think we will be hearing a lot about stagflation (economic stagnation and high inflation) in the next few years.

Now I've got to go get some rest. See you in the morning.

Carter 2

298 JacksonTn  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:07:00pm

re: #288 avanti

I'm not on that list. If Murtha's service in the Marines and Congress earned him a award in the opinion of the Sec of the Navy, I'll deffer to his judgment.

Yeah ... well, wtf happened to him then ... why did he turn his back on his fellow marines ... murderers? Murtha can go straight to hell ...

299 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:07:13pm

re: #291 3 wood

One last point on economics to mull over.

There is the concept of "crowding out" that is going to start taking effect. At any given time, there is only so much credit available in the market for anybody to borrow. As the Fed's borrow more and more to fund their deficit spending, the soak up the available credit like a sponge, thus crowding out the private sector from being able to borrow. When that happens, business can't get credit to pay for expansion, mortgage rates rise and car loan rates rise and then the economy goes into "stagflation".

I think we will be hearing a lot about stagflation (economic stagnation and high inflation) in the next few years.

Now I've got to go get some rest. See you in the morning.

Good night, 3 wood!

300 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:07:17pm

re: #268 3 wood

What irritates me is have economics idiots like Obama and Geithner on the TV almost every day confusing the public on how economics actually works.

They are either intentionally lying or are complete fools, I can't figure out which.

They are snake-oil salesmen --making-it-up as they go.

301 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:07:18pm

re: #291 3 wood

Gee, thanks for that cheery goodbye...

302 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:07:34pm
303 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:07:37pm

re: #296 Killgore Trout

That's what I'm asking for. Can you direct me to a comment or article that explains what you're talking about?

I referenced the comment in my mile long post. At the top. :)

304 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:07:44pm

re: #290 Rovers Return

Hi all. I am shug's wife.
This is one of my few posts. Sharmuta, my husband speaks highly of you and Mr Johnson and this blog. I actually read it a lot when he is logged in and posts but tonight he is at work so you all are hearing from me.
I am glad you are all fighting to keep science in the schools and to keep folklore for campfires and bedtime stories instead of in the classrooms.

Wife of Shug! Let's get real!

305 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:07:53pm

re: #290 Rovers Return

I think your husband is a smart and funny guy- he's one of my favorites here. We'd all love to hear more from you, so please feel free to join in more often.

And thank you for the kind words.

306 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:08:02pm

re: #295 J.D.

I must say I haven't seen it so low in forever.

Almost doubled since March 4th. Better buy a bunch before its too late.

307 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:08:13pm

re: #268 3 wood

What irritates me is have economics idiots like Obama and Geithner on the TV almost every day confusing the public on how economics actually works.

They are either intentionally lying or are complete fools, I can't figure out which.

It's not either-or, they are complete fools who are intentionally lying.

308 3 wood  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:08:24pm

re: #274 Syrah

If the results are the same, does it really matter whether they are liars or idiots?

Idiots have a potential to learn. Liars are dangerous.

309 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:08:31pm

re: #188 NYCHardhat

I really don't see the point.

That's because you can't see the top of their heads.

310 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:08:40pm

re: #249 Dark_Falcon

All news organizations have a strong entertainment component. While your point is well taken, I feel constrained to ask if you would apply the same comment you just said to Keith Olbermann. Much of what he does could be described as entertainment for moonbats.

Not to Olbermann, he's not even a entertaining moonbat. I'll give O'reily that on occasion.

311 NYCHardhat  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:09:21pm

re: #309 NY Nana

That's because you can't see the top of their heads.

French people.

312 Basho  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:09:32pm

re: #310 avanti

Not to Olbermann, he's not even an entertaining moonbat.


XD

313 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:09:39pm

re: #291 3 wood

One last point on economics to mull over.

There is the concept of "crowding out" that is going to start taking effect. At any given time, there is only so much credit available in the market for anybody to borrow. As the Fed's borrow more and more to fund their deficit spending, the soak up the available credit like a sponge, thus crowding out the private sector from being able to borrow. When that happens, business can't get credit to pay for expansion, mortgage rates rise and car loan rates rise and then the economy goes into "stagflation".

I think we will be hearing a lot about stagflation (economic stagnation and high inflation) in the next few years.

Now I've got to go get some rest. See you in the morning.

Somewhere in my collections of clutter and stuff that I have accumulated over the ages, I have an old President Ford era W.I.N. button. (Whip Inflation Now)

I will have to dig it out.

314 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:10:28pm

re: #283 JacksonTn

Really .... it seems like only 6,444,444,444 days now ...

/cannot wait until the idiot is GONE ...

That little time? Join the club. At least we didn't vote for The One.

Do not insult idiots!

315 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:10:49pm

re: #313 Syrah

Somewhere in my collections of clutter and stuff that I have accumulated over the ages, I have an old President Ford era W.I.N. button. (Whip Inflation Now)

I will have to dig it out.

I lived in Seattle then. The (late) P-I suggested buttons that said Stop Having Inflation Today.

316 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:11:02pm

re: #243 Killgore Trout

My latest pet peeve is the bogus claim that the 90% tax on AIG bonuses is unconstitutional. It's not

Or perhaps it IS

Article 1, Section 9, Clause 5 - United States Constitution

"No bill of Attainder or ex post facto law shall be passed."

[Link: boortz.com...]

317 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:11:32pm

re: #290 Rovers Return

Hi all. I am shug's wife.
This is one of my few posts. Sharmuta, my husband speaks highly of you and Mr Johnson and this blog. I actually read it a lot when he is logged in and posts but tonight he is at work so you all are hearing from me.
I am glad you are all fighting to keep science in the schools and to keep folklore for campfires and bedtime stories instead of in the classrooms.

Welcome! We're glad to have you.

318 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:11:41pm

re: #291 3 wood

Good night.
Thanks for the info, although you have probably contributed to a lack of sleep on my part tonight...

319 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:12:14pm

re: #316 sattv4u2


My latest pet peeve is the bogus claim that the 90% tax on AIG bonuses is unconstitutional. It's not

Or perhaps it IS

Article 1, Section 9, Clause 5 - United States Constitution

"No bill of Attainder or ex post facto law shall be passed."

[Link: boortz.com...]

Is there anything in there says busloads of ACORN goons shouldn't threaten people in their homes?

320 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:12:21pm

re: #311 NYCHardhat

French people.

Even the French would not do what they do. Serial ding dongs.

Charles has a cure, though.

321 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:12:24pm

re: #316 sattv4u2

Bills of attainder and ex post facto only apply to criminal law, not tax law.

322 Rovers Return  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:12:29pm

re: #305 Sharmuta

I think your husband is a smart and funny guy- he's one of my favorites here. We'd all love to hear more from you, so please feel free to join in more often.

And thank you for the kind words.

I am more of a reader than a commenter ( obviously I only made one comment and he suggested how to type it ). I am actually the brains of the operation if you must know. ( the woman behind the curtain, if you will )
I am fascinated by the whole culture here. The nodrogs and the etiquette and the whole subculture.
There are so many of you I feel I know just by reading your comments

323 LGoPs  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:12:36pm

re: #293 JohnAdams

What's a Frog March? Is that a military thing?

No. I seem to recall Sidney Blumenthal from Clinton days demanding that some Republican, maybe Ken Starr - do the perp walk in handcuffs. I think the term refers to leg cuffs as well which make you walk like a frog I guess.
Blumenthal was a fuck but I like the image and for this bunch doing a perp walk would be fitting.

324 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:12:37pm

re: #315 Alouette

I lived in Seattle then. The (late) P-I suggested buttons that said Stop Having Inflation Today.

Now that sounds like fun.

I may have to have some of those printed up with the wording over the Obama "O" emblem.

325 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:12:53pm
326 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:12:57pm

re: #319 kansas

Is there anything in there says busloads of ACORN goons shouldn't threaten people in their homes?

No ,, but I have a few things in my house that says they shouldn't threaten me in MINE!

327 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:13:11pm

re: #243 Killgore Trout

What's the deal with the Harvest Mouse thing? (30 words or less please) I saw the reports that it was in the stimulus but I haven't been following.
My latest pet peeve is the bogus claim that the 90% tax on AIG bonuses is unconstitutional. It's not, but it's being repeated endlessly by blogs, msm and talking heads.

Little more than 30: The salt marsh harvest mouse will benefit from a number of 'shovel-ready' jobs that California wetlands restoration groups hope to get out of the stimulus package. There is no specific language about the mouse and its habitat. Although frequently referred to as 'Pelosi's mouse', the mouse is not related to Nancy Pelosi, and does not live in her district.

328 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:13:11pm

re: #306 kansas

Almost doubled since March 4th. Better buy a bunch before its too late.

I know!
Just can't swing it right now.
*sigh*

329 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:13:34pm

re: #323 LGoPs

No. I seem to recall Sidney Blumenthal from Clinton days demanding that some Republican, maybe Ken Starr - do the perp walk in handcuffs. I think the term refers to leg cuffs as well which make you walk like a frog I guess.
Blumenthal was a fuck but I like the image and for this bunch doing a perp walk would be fitting.

It was that attention hog Joe Wilson talking about Karl Rove.

330 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:13:38pm

Supreme Court refuses ex-Border Patrol agents' appeal

Link in spinoff links above.

331 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:13:42pm

re: #321 Killgore Trout

Bills of attainder and ex post facto only apply to criminal law, not tax law.

Not entirely. They are trying to deprive some individuals of property that is rightfully and lawfully theirs without accusing them of a crime and without the benefit of any trial

332 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:13:55pm

re: #326 sattv4u2

No ,, but I have a few things in my house that says they shouldn't threaten me in MINE!

I like that. A lot.

333 LGoPs  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:14:00pm

re: #329 kansas

It was that attention hog Joe Wilson talking about Karl Rove.

Thanks

334 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:14:10pm

re: #321 Killgore Trout

Bills of attainder and ex post facto only apply to criminal law, not tax law.

So tax laws get to be unconstitutional? While I have always suspected as much, please elaborate. I am all ears.

335 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:14:32pm

re: #315 Alouette

I actually have an 'I Like Ike' button in my jewelry box.

336 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:14:43pm

re: #316 sattv4u2

After a quick skim I think Boortz is lying to you. He knows better and thinks you're too stupid or gullible to check. It's easy to check this out yourself.

337 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:14:47pm

re: #323 LGoPs

Thus saith the Wiki:

Frog marching (hyphenated, non-hyphenated, or as a single word) refers to the practice of forcibly transporting suspects or prisoners through a public place, up to and including carrying them such that their limbs splay in a frog-like manner. (Perp walking is similar, but implies the subjects move more or less under their own power.)

Frog marching may be necessary to transport prisoners who are uncooperative or intoxicated. However, as a forced public spectacle, it may serve as well to humiliate those marched and send a message to those looking on.

338 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:14:50pm

re: #323 LGoPs

No. I seem to recall Sidney Blumenthal from Clinton days demanding that some Republican, maybe Ken Starr - do the perp walk in handcuffs. I think the term refers to leg cuffs as well which make you walk like a frog I guess.
Blumenthal was a fuck but I like the image and for this bunch doing a perp walk would be fitting.

I always thought that was a Joe Wilson quote. He wanted "whoever" was responsible for "outing" his SuperSecretAgent Wife to be "frog marched" out of the White House

339 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:15:04pm
340 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:15:51pm

re: #336 Killgore Trout

After a quick skim I think Boortz is lying to you. He knows better and thinks you're too stupid or gullible to check. It's easy to check this out yourself.

I have. His was the only link I recalled reading recently that was quick enough for me to pull up..

And thanks for calling me stupid or gullible by inference!

341 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:16:18pm

re: #335 NY Nana

I actually have an 'I Like Ike' button in my jewelry box.

I'll bet that's worth something!

342 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:16:23pm

re: #329 kansas

It was that attention hog Joe Wilson talking about Karl Rove.

If you've seen Joe Wilson lately, it appears he "Hog Marches" down to the all you can eat buffet a little too often.

343 LGoPs  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:17:02pm

re: #338 Desert Dog

I always thought that was a Joe Wilson quote. He wanted "whoever" was responsible for "outing" his SuperSecretAgent Wife to be "frog marched" out of the White House

Kansas said the same. I stand corrected but the image for Pelosi et al stands.

344 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:17:02pm

re: #336 Killgore Trout

re: #340 sattv4u2

I have. His was the only link I recalled reading recently that was quick enough for me to pull up..

And thanks for calling me stupid or gullible by inference!

Oh ,, wait ,, was I supposed to be too stupid to notice? Sorry ,,, my bad!

345 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:17:18pm

re: #342 Desert Dog

If you've seen Joe Wilson lately, it appears he "Hog Marches" down to the all you can eat buffet a little too often.

I guess his 15 minutes ran out.

346 LGoPs  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:17:49pm

re: #337 doppelganglander

Thus saith the Wiki:

Good definition. Thanks.

347 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:17:57pm

re: #342 Desert Dog

If you've seen Joe Wilson lately, it appears he "Hog Marches" down to the all you can eat buffet a little too often.

He can't stay away from the yellowcake!

348 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:18:25pm

Well the economic solutions are tough because they will take generations to undo some seemingly good intentions.

While giving everyone a shot a college by providing a decent pre-college education, not everyone should go to college. We need to revive the vocational schools. This will diversify our DOMESTIC labor pool so that we are not at the mercy of international incidents and unrest disrupting our economy.

We need to do whatever it takes to re-establish our manufacturing sector. This will diversify our sources of revenue so that we are not subject to downturns in one sector totally cratering our economy.

We need to go to a flat tax. The seeds of our corruption are in the labyrinth that is the current tax code.

We need to eliminate the federal business tax. Multiple taxation of revenue is doing nothing but giving the junkie (government) more drugs.

Government should not be a economic participant but a referee.

These are but a simple list of things that I think are solutions. The arguments are complex and laborious but they need to be made.

349 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:18:59pm

re: #331 sattv4u2

Not entirely. They are trying to deprive some individuals of property that is rightfully and lawfully theirs without accusing them of a crime and without the benefit of any trial


Sorry, fair trials and due process don't apply to tax law, only criminal law. Listen, I have no doubt that you want to believe this and I suspect I can't convince you otherwise. Go ahead and believe it if that's what you want to do, but it's not going to become true no matter how many people repeat the lie.
This is why the right is becoming just as bad as the left was a few years ago. It's fascinating to watch it happening.

350 Rovers Return  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:19:11pm

goodnight

351 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:19:28pm

re: #342 Desert Dog

If you've seen Joe Wilson lately, it appears he "Hog Marches" down to the all you can eat buffet a little too often.

This picture must have been before he "made it big".

352 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:19:33pm

Boortz is a practicing Atlanta attorney, check.

353 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:19:40pm

re: #322 Rovers Return

I would think there was a smart lady on Shug's arm, so it comes as no surprise to me to learn it's true.

LGF is incredible in that it has allowed me to get to know so many wonderful, intelligent, big hearted people from coast to coast as well as over seas. And I love it when Lizards get friends or family involved, so I think it's great you're here.

354 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:19:52pm

re: #340 sattv4u2

And thanks for calling me stupid or gullible by inference!


You're welcome.

355 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:20:45pm

re: #350 Rovers Return

I took too long typing! Good night- come back soon!

356 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:20:53pm

re: #323 LGoPs

No. I seem to recall Sidney Blumenthal from Clinton days demanding that some Republican, maybe Ken Starr - do the perp walk in handcuffs. I think the term refers to leg cuffs as well which make you walk like a frog I guess.
Blumenthal was a fuck but I like the image and for this bunch doing a perp walk would be fitting.

An apt metaphor.
Maybe we can get Dave Matthews to do a song called "Frogs Marching."
/Likely not.

357 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:20:56pm

re: #349 Killgore Trout

Sorry, fair trials and due process don't apply to tax law, only criminal law. Listen, I have no doubt that you want to believe this and I suspect I can't convince you otherwise. Go ahead and believe it if that's what you want to do, but it's not going to become true no matter how many people repeat the lie.
This is why the right is becoming just as bad as the left was a few years ago. It's fascinating to watch it happening.

Lying got the Democrats back in power. Apparently that's what it takes.

358 J.D.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:21:19pm

re: #350 Rovers Return

goodnight

Night Rovers Return. Thanks for introducing yourself.

359 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:22:14pm

re: #349 Killgore Trout

fair trials and due process don't apply to tax law

Better tell the 8 pages of Tax Attorneys listed in the yellow pages that!

360 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:23:08pm

re: #357 kansas

How do you know a Democrat is lying? If he's reading a teleprompter.

When you don't lie, you don't need a script or even a good memory.

361 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:23:48pm

re: #352 rawmuse

Boortz is a practicing Atlanta attorney, check.

He hasn't "practiced" in years. At least 10 since I've been in Goergia, and many prior to that

He still retains his license to practice though

362 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:23:58pm

re: #360 Mich-again

How do you know a Democrat is lying? If he's reading a teleprompter.

When you don't lie, you don't need a script or even a good memory.

I'm pretty sure you can tell a Democrat is lying if his lips are moving.

363 Timbre  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:24:06pm

Hey, Charles--Some of your Lizards are evolving, right here in West Texas.

364 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:24:18pm

re: #361 sattv4u2

He still retains his license to practice though

Tax deduction!

365 Aviator  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:25:19pm

Well, this guy seems to think the AIG tax may very well be unconstitutional. Of course he might not know what he talking about.Idiot Harvard Law Professor

366 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:25:22pm

re: #348 unclassifiable

Well the economic solutions are tough because they will take generations to undo some seemingly good intentions.

While giving everyone a shot a college by providing a decent pre-college education, not everyone should go to college. We need to revive the vocational schools.


I gave you an upding primarily for this part. I am an absolute bore on the topic of vocational education. Even today, 60 years after the GI Bill opened higher education to the masses, only 25% of adults have a college degree. You know why? Because only 25% of adults (and maybe fewer) NEED a college degree.

367 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:25:37pm

re: #361 sattv4u2

According to him, he still practices because he does not draw the income from his show that he would like. At least, that is what I have heard him broadcast. While I do not agree with Esq. Boortz on every position, the man is usually spot on as regards the US Constitution.

368 Timbre  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:25:41pm

OK, southeastern U.S., not West Texas. My reading skills are devolving.

369 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:26:03pm

OT: Plenty of Rahm at the AIG Table

Over the past ten days, as the furor over AIG retention plan bonuses has focused on Sen. Chris Dodd and Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner, the White House has undertaken a PR offensive to protect the highest ranking Obama Administration official who was involved in the House and Senate negotiations over the stimulus bill, in which the AIG waiver language was inserted.

"Right now, you get the feeling this is all about protecting [White House Chief of Staff] Rahm Emanuel,” says a former Treasury Department lawyer, who worked in that department's counsel's office on the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) before joining a D.C.-based law firm in February. "At the time, we were led to believe there were basically three or four people from the Administration at the table when the final deals were cut and one of them was Emanuel."

370 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:26:23pm

re: #348 unclassifiable

I agree. Europe sometimes does things right. In the UK and Germany (not sure about other countries), you make a choice at the start of High School. Do you want to go to University or learn a trade. They test for the results there. I am not sure if that would fly here. But, there is nothing wrong with learning a trade. My neighbor barely got out of high school, but learned the art of plumbing. He's a rich man now.

We place too much emphasis on fairness and equality. The problem is life is certainly not fair and people are not equal. Some are smart, some are not so smart. The libs want everyone to be the same and that is just not going to happen. All people have given talents and those should be nurtured and brought out. Some people do not belong in college. It is not for them. While some people should be in trade school or simply do not need college to be successful in life.

And, since this is the USA, you can always change your path and switch from one to the other....

371 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:26:30pm

Advisers To Obama Wary of Bonus Tax

"I think the president would be concerned that this bill may have some problems in going too far -- the House bill may go too far in terms of some -- some legal issues, constitutional validity, using the tax code to surgically punish a small group," Jared Bernstein, the top economic adviser to Vice President Biden, said on ABC's "This Week." "That may be a dangerous way to go."

/apparently they didn't attend the Killgore School of Law

372 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:26:40pm

re: #348 unclassifiable

Well the economic solutions are tough because they will take generations to undo some seemingly good intentions.

While giving everyone a shot a college by providing a decent pre-college education, not everyone should go to college. We need to revive the vocational schools. This will diversify our DOMESTIC labor pool so that we are not at the mercy of international incidents and unrest disrupting our economy.

We need to do whatever it takes to re-establish our manufacturing sector. This will diversify our sources of revenue so that we are not subject to downturns in one sector totally cratering our economy.

We need to go to a flat tax. The seeds of our corruption are in the labyrinth that is the current tax code.

We need to eliminate the federal business tax. Multiple taxation of revenue is doing nothing but giving the junkie (government) more drugs.

Government should not be a economic participant but a referee.

These are but a simple list of things that I think are solutions. The arguments are complex and laborious but they need to be made.

You make an excellent star on those arguments. Thank you.

373 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:27:01pm

re: #366 doppelganglander

BTW ,, got your e-mail. Keep me posted. I can't wait!

374 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:27:24pm

re: #365 Aviator

Well, this guy seems to think the AIG tax may very well be unconstitutional. Of course he might not know what he talking about.Idiot Harvard Law Professor

Well, if memory serves me, Obama was a friggin' Harvard Law Educated Law Professor too.....shouldn't he know?

375 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:27:26pm

re: #363 Timbre

Hey, Charles--Some of your Lizards are evolving, right here in West Texas.

But where are the transitional forms? ///

376 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:27:46pm

re: #363 Timbre

Cool story. Striking example of evolution in the here and now.

377 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:28:22pm

re: #366 doppelganglander

I gave you an upding primarily for this part. I am an absolute bore on the topic of vocational education. Even today, 60 years after the GI Bill opened higher education to the masses, only 25% of adults have a college degree. You know why? Because only 25% of adults (and maybe fewer) NEED a college degree.

I agree. I'm a software engineer with a degree in physics, but we can do without what I do. Just try to live without plumbers, for example.

378 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:28:28pm

re: #365 Aviator

re: #365 Aviator

Yes, that's the article we are discussing.

379 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:29:10pm

re: #372 Dark_Falcon

You make an excellent start on those arguments. Thank you.

380 Aviator  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:29:35pm

re: #374 Desert Dog

Well, if memory serves me, Obama was a friggin' Harvard Law Educated Law Professor too.....shouldn't he know?

O was not a professor at Harvard. He doubt he knows shit about shit. I did leave off my / tag though.

381 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:29:48pm

re: #369 gmsc

OT: Plenty of Rahm at the AIG Table

Rahm Emmanuel is so slimy, I can't believe he doesn't slide right out of his chair. But I have no doubt there will be a place for him at the table under the bus when the time comes.

382 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:30:15pm

re: #374 Desert Dog

Well, if memory serves me, Obama was a friggin' Harvard Law Educated Law Professor too.....shouldn't he know?

He would have had he attended classes and taken the exams as opposed to having been an affirmative action quota student. Some of his finals are posted online. They look pretty shallow to me. On the order of Steve and Bruce want to rent an apartment but Lenny is a homophobic landlord, etc.

383 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:30:21pm

re: #371 Killian Bundy

There might be problems, depending on the wording and how it's implemented but the principal is still sound and has been upheld by the courts.

384 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:30:51pm

re: #367 rawmuse

According to him, he still practices because he does not draw the income from his show that he would like. At least, that is what I have heard him broadcast. While I do not agree with Esq. Boortz on every position, the man is usually spot on as regards the US Constitution.

He's crying all the way to the bank!

I think he's hilarious!

385 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:31:12pm

re: #366 doppelganglander

I gave you an upding primarily for this part. I am an absolute bore on the topic of vocational education. Even today, 60 years after the GI Bill opened higher education to the masses, only 25% of adults have a college degree. You know why? Because only 25% of adults (and maybe fewer) NEED a college degree.

Upding on a particular pet peeve of mine (no need to bore you now on the the other 400!). There are terrific opportunities to make a great living in skilled trades like plumbing, electrical contracting, etc. It would be one thing if our colleges were turning out kids who have unbiased liberal-arts education that made them more whole citizens. But instead we have hundreds of thousands of kids coming out of college with large hangovers, marxist leanings from parasitic bitter professors, and hundreds of thousand dollars of debt.

386 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:31:47pm

Woe Is Me: Obama honeymoon may be over

With apologies to Garrison Keillor: It has been a difficult week in our hometown, Lake Woe Is Me.

The images of cheering throngs in Denver and in Grant Park seem to be fading rather quickly for President Obama as more and more Americans realize what they should have understood in the first place -- pledges sold in a campaign frequently have a very short shelf life.

Take the new president's promise to restore at least some semblance of bipartisan civility to American politics, to reach out to the opposition and make governing all-inclusive, perhaps for the first time in U.S. history. After just two months in office, Obama has begun to openly blame his predecessor and Republicans generally for the nation's economic crisis, and his budget strategists are threatening to curtail input from GOP lawmakers to quick-start his health care and energy initiatives.

The White House is considering the use of a process called "reconciliation" in the Senate that requires only 51 votes for adoption (limited to revenue bills) rather than the 61 it would take to overcome a filibuster. Because the Democrats have 58 votes, Republicans would become irrelevant to the process. Not to be outdone, Republican lawmakers in the House and Senate have stepped up their contentions that Obama and the Democrats are using the economic mess to cover their real goal, the adoption of an agenda of liberal proposals that have been rejected for decades.

Senate GOP leader Mitch McConnell, of Kentucky, told reporters recently that his members were willing to meet the president in the middle, but not on the left. He didn't say whether the Republican far right agrees with that.

387 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:32:02pm

re: #384 sattv4u2

Yes, I am a fan also, but he is not in the same income league as the El Rushbo. No private jets for Boortz.

388 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:32:10pm

re: #377 Kosh's Shadow

I agree. I'm a software engineer with a degree in physics, but we can do without what I do. Just try to live without plumbers, for example.

Exactly. I'd start by destigmatizing vocational ed. The percentage of graduating seniors who are going on to a four-year college is not the only (or even the best) measure of success.

389 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:32:56pm

re: #365 Aviator

Well, this guy seems to think the AIG tax may very well be unconstitutional. Of course he might not know what he talking about.Idiot Harvard Law Professor

/if Tribe knew what he was talking about he wouldn't be allowed to argue before the Supreme Court

390 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:33:11pm

re: #373 sattv4u2

BTW ,, got your e-mail. Keep me posted. I can't wait!

Will do! It'll be fun.

391 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:33:19pm

re: #383 Killgore Trout

There might be problems, depending on the wording and how it's implemented but the principal is still sound and has been upheld by the courts.

/inky?

392 hazzyday  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:33:39pm

Some of these people that go to court have an aura of stupidity around them. maybe a dash of trooferism, a sprig of paul, an ounce of nirther. What you get is someone no one can convince they are full of folly.

393 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:33:49pm

re: #383 Killgore Trout

There might be problems, depending on the wording and how it's implemented but the principal is still sound and has been upheld by the courts.

And there, you trump us, because by now, all sorts of unconstitutional nonsense have been upheld by the courts. The Kelo decision, for instance.

394 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:33:53pm
395 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:34:00pm

re: #387 rawmuse

Yes, I am a fan also, but he is not in the same income league as the El Rushbo. No private jets for Boortz.

He owns 2 planes of his own! They're not luxury ones like El Rushbo, but just the same.

I've met him a couple of times in private settings, He's just as funny in person

396 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:34:48pm

Anyone know how much of the AIG bonus money being considered for a 91% tax rate was paid out to employees of AIG who were not citizens of the U.S?

397 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:34:54pm

re: #374 Desert Dog

Well, if memory serves me, Obama was a friggin' Harvard Law Educated Law Professor too.....shouldn't he know?

I remember reading through all of Professor Obama's Constitutional Law exam questions. Whoever wrote those questions was only concerned with protecting the victims of isms. Racism, Sexism, Classism,

He should have called the class Victimology 101.

398 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:34:55pm

re: #395 sattv4u2

OK then, I stand corrected. He was crying poor mouse...

399 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:35:40pm

re: #341 J.D.

I'll bet that's worth something!

My parents zt"l gave it to me during the election. They were Republicans, but their rebel daughter was a Demonrat when I registered at age 21, until the third month of Jimmy the Jew hater's regime. NY Grampa and I both were, but we left, and were Indies until President Bush ran, and we registered as Republicans and never looked back, since 2000, as NYS does not allow you to vote if you are not registered in the Party. We did not vote for Bubba, BTW, when he ran, in the General Election. We never voted Demonrats for President since we left, and never will.

400 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:35:51pm

re: #397 Mich-again

I remember reading through all of Professor Obama's Constitutional Law exam questions. Whoever wrote those questions was only concerned with protecting the victims of isms. Racism, Sexism, Classism,

He should have called the class Victimology 101.

And now he's POTUS

How did that happen?!

401 hazzyday  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:35:57pm

re: #381 doppelganglander

Rahm Emmanuel is so slimy, I can't believe he doesn't slide right out of his chair. But I have no doubt there will be a place for him at the table under the bus when the time comes.

What happened with his Blagovich talks where he tried to buy the Obama senate seat?

402 Aviator  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:36:05pm

re: #378 Killgore Trout

Perhaps I'm missing it, but I find no link to that page.

403 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:36:48pm
404 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:37:33pm

re: #385 JohnAdams

Upding on a particular pet peeve of mine (no need to bore you now on the the other 400!). There are terrific opportunities to make a great living in skilled trades like plumbing, electrical contracting, etc. It would be one thing if our colleges were turning out kids who have unbiased liberal-arts education that made them more whole citizens. But instead we have hundreds of thousands of kids coming out of college with large hangovers, marxist leanings from parasitic bitter professors, and hundreds of thousand dollars of debt.

The debt is a huge factor, especially for those who don't finish their degree. Congratulations, you've wasted a couple of years of your life. You now owe thousands of dollars, despite the fact that you do not have the credentials required to get a better-paid job.

To be fair, this is an even bigger problem for people who attend those noxious private trade schools. I remember reading a story about a group of people who had gone to a massage therapy school, only to discover their training didn't even qualify them to be eligible for the exam.

405 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:38:30pm

The entire exercise of having to go out of your way to draft legislation to tax a narrow class of people who happen to be the beneficiaries of a hasty and ill considered bill that you wrote, just because you were too damn lazy to read the entire bill in the first place, you must admit, is high farce of the very first order, and worthy of scorn and ridicule by any citizen with a pulse.

406 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:39:04pm

re: #395 sattv4u2

He owns 2 planes of his own! They're not luxury ones like El Rushbo, but just the same.

I've met him a couple of times in private settings, He's just as funny in person

A guy in the Studebaker club was talking about playing with his Mig on our blog, We assumed MIG welder, but no, he owned a Mig 21 he bought from the Serbian Air Force. He recently sold it because of the silly cost of flight time.

407 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:39:07pm

re: #401 hazzyday

What happened with his Blagovich talks where he tried to buy the Obama senate seat?

I'm not sure. Funny how that just disappeared.

408 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:39:13pm

re: #403 Iron Fist

Shit. A fuck like that doesn't deserve a honeymoon. Since we're using wedding terminology, can we get an annulment do to lack of performance?

Nope, sorry. We're stuck with him. We get to divorce in 2012, not before.

409 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:39:53pm

re: #388 doppelganglander

Exactly. I'd start by destigmatizing vocational ed. The percentage of graduating seniors who are going on to a four-year college is not the only (or even the best) measure of success.

Vocational skills are a great asset to society. I wish more people would understand their necessity.

410 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:39:57pm

re: #405 rawmuse

The entire exercise of having to go out of your way to draft legislation to tax a narrow class of people who happen to be the beneficiaries of a hasty and ill considered bill that you wrote, just because you were too damn lazy to read the entire bill in the first place, you must admit, is high farce of the very first order, and worthy of scorn and ridicule by any citizen with a pulse.

Well, at least it wasn't a large amount of money. You know, like some unreal amount like A TRILLION dollars or anything

/

411 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:40:18pm

re: #400 Desert Dog

And now he's POTUS

How did that happen?!

Here is a link to all Obama's Con Law exams. Read the stupid and flippant questions from a prestigious law school (allegedly) and consider that the person who wrote those questions (allegedly) is now the leader of the most powerful Nation on Earth.

412 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:40:30pm

re: #405 rawmuse
Pretty much sums up the state of mind running circles around my head when I can't go back to sleep at five in the morning!

413 Aviator  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:40:35pm

re: #403 Iron Fist

Shit. A fuck like that doesn't deserve a honeymoon. Since we're using wedding terminology, can we get an annulment do to lack of performance?

I don't know about you, but I feel like the wedding has been consummated many times in the last few weeks.

414 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:41:14pm

re: #398 rawmuse

OK then, I stand corrected. He was crying poor mouse...

hehehehe ,,, compared to Rush or Hannity money , yes. But he did an interesting thing. Instead of trying to get into huge markets (Chicago, New York, Boston, LA) his syndication company concentrated on secondary markets (Dayton Ohio ,, Orlando FLA,,, etc) Only lately has he been getting into biggre markets (Dallas, Houston, he is now on in LA) Thats how I met him. The company I work for sends out fiber and satellite signals, and he uses our fiber network as their backbone

415 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:42:17pm

re: #414 sattv4u2

Are they jets or prop planes? Hell, I once owned a prop plane.

416 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:42:56pm

re: #383 Killgore Trout

And if you think a bill of attainder is only applicable to criminal law, think again.

/next time, try reading your wiki article more closely or go to law school

417 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:42:57pm

re: #409 Mr. In get Mr. Out

Vocational skills are a great asset to society. I wish more people would understand their necessity.

I met many people in college that should not have been there. No offense to them, but they did not have the aptitude or temperament for that type of education. There is nothing wrong at all with learning a trade. I wish I had learned more about plumbing and electrical matters every time I have to call a repairman.

418 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:43:03pm

Jay Leno making fun of George Bush again. Is this getting old?

419 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:43:11pm

re: #411 Mich-again

Here is a link to all Obama's Con Law exams. Read the stupid and flippant questions from a prestigious law school (allegedly) and consider that the person who wrote those questions (allegedly) is now the leader of the most powerful Nation on Earth.

And in that knowledge, despair. [sobs]

420 MandyManners  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:43:55pm

What about the teacher?

421 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:44:04pm

re: #414 sattv4u2

hehehehe ,,, compared to Rush or Hannity money , yes. But he did an interesting thing. Instead of trying to get into huge markets (Chicago, New York, Boston, LA) his syndication company concentrated on secondary markets (Dayton Ohio ,, Orlando FLA,,, etc) Only lately has he been getting into biggre markets (Dallas, Houston, he is now on in LA) Thats how I met him. The company I work for sends out fiber and satellite signals, and he uses our fiber network as their backbone

That's neat. I've also met him. He is so much nicer than people expect because of his bombastic on-air persona.

422 kansas  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:44:15pm

re: #411 Mich-again

Here is a link to all Obama's Con Law exams. Read the stupid and flippant questions from a prestigious law school (allegedly) and consider that the person who wrote those questions (allegedly) is now the leader of the most powerful Nation on Earth.

Teleprompter obviously did not help in writing those exams.

423 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:45:00pm

re: #415 rawmuse

Are they jets or prop planes? Hell, I once owned a prop plane.

I beleive they are both props. One's a Decathalon

[Link: boortz.com...]

424 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:45:41pm

re: #411 Mich-again

Here is a link to all Obama's Con Law exams. Read the stupid and flippant questions from a prestigious law school (allegedly) and consider that the person who wrote those questions (allegedly) is now the leader of the most powerful Nation on Earth.

Good Gravy did you read the questions! They are pumping out little Liberal Drones at the Univ. of Chicago Law School!

425 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:45:42pm

re: #416 Killian Bundy

And if you think a bill of attainder is only applicable to criminal law, think again.

/next time, try reading your wiki article more closely or go to law school

and I was the "stupid one" !

426 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:45:58pm
427 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:47:00pm

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

Nope, sorry. We're stuck with him. We get to divorce in 2012, not before.

But we can send his mistress (Democratic controlled Congress) packing and replace her with a firm disciplinarian in 2010.

428 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:48:18pm

I'd like to start a new word on LGF:

Capitalistophobe (noun): One whose actions and beliefs are based in a fear of capitalism and capitalists.

Synonyms: liberal, democrats, leftist

429 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:48:29pm

re: #417 Desert Dog

I met many people in college that should not have been there. No offense to them, but they did not have the aptitude or temperament for that type of education. There is nothing wrong at all with learning a trade. I wish I had learned more about plumbing and electrical matters every time I have to call a repairman.

I treasure my liberal-arts education from a highly respected state university, but I know that at the time I was smart enough to know that that was what i was getting. I was learning about human history, literature, and how to see human problems in context. But at the end of the day, all that stuff can only help you understand the world. You need tradeable skills and the gumption to trade them to make a living.

430 MandyManners  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:48:50pm

re: #406 avanti

SPIN THIS, YOU FUCKING, COMMIE PUKE.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]


I'll admit I have not, but unlike some others, I hope he succeeds in turning the economy. If being happy when the market goes ups, and my IRA goes up is selfish, so be it. I never said word when some on here were almost gleeful when the market tanked, allow me to be happy if it goes up. If BHO plan does not work. or can't work, then the market will tank again.

431 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:48:57pm

re: #427 unclassifiable

But we can send his mistress (Democratic controlled Congress) packing and replace her with a firm disciplinarian in 2010.

Have you any idea the political demographics of Pelosi's district? There is NO WAY she gets voted out!

Sorry

432 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:49:34pm

re: #417 Desert Dog

I met many people in college that should not have been there. No offense to them, but they did not have the aptitude or temperament for that type of education. There is nothing wrong at all with learning a trade. I wish I had learned more about plumbing and electrical matters every time I have to call a repairman.

Exactly. Yet they're made to feel like failures if they don't go to college. It's not like we'd be denying college to anyone who wants to go -- it's making appropriate opportunities available to ALL kids.

If I were First Lady, this would probably be my issue. Instead of, say, harping on nutrition and pretending to plant a garden.

433 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:50:05pm

re: #431 sattv4u2

Now it falls to me to correct you.

She did have a rival that ran against her from her Left, in the person of Cindy Sheehan, last election.

434 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:50:13pm

re: #419 Dark_Falcon

And in that knowledge, despair. [sobs]

I don't know how long that site will stay up. Professor Obama's exams were a complete joke. The questions are an embarrassment to everyone who has to call him President. If those questions represents his intellect, its worse than anyone could have thought.

Let me rephrase that. Its so bad, Obama couldn't win a game of Scrabble if he played alone.

435 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:50:28pm

re: #431 sattv4u2

Have you any idea the political demographics of Pelosi's district? There is NO WAY she gets voted out!

Sorry

Especially with ACORN taking part in the census, and probably the redistricting.

436 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:50:35pm
437 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:50:35pm

re: #431 sattv4u2

Have you any idea the political demographics of Pelosi's district? There is NO WAY she gets voted out!

Sorry

Yeah, even if she didn't run all you need is a tree stump, hand a sign "Democrat" around it, and it would beat a Republican in that district.

//

438 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:51:00pm

re: #411 Mich-again

Here is a link to all Obama's Con Law exams. Read the stupid and flippant questions from a prestigious law school (allegedly) and consider that the person who wrote those questions (allegedly) is now the leader of the most powerful Nation on Earth.

At first I was hoping these were his blue books from when he took con law. I would love to see those.

439 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:51:00pm

re: #429 JohnAdams

I treasure my liberal-arts education from a highly respected state university, but I know that at the time I was smart enough to know that that was what i was getting. I was learning about human history, literature, and how to see human problems in context. But at the end of the day, all that stuff can only help you understand the world. You need tradeable skills and the gumption to trade them to make a living.

My degree is History and PolySci. I was going to teach like my parents had, but I ended up managing the family business. I am now the owner and there are many days I wish I would have studied business. On the other hand, I usually kick ass when we play Trivial Pursuits and watch Jeopardy.

440 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:51:53pm

re: #382 kansas

He would have had he attended classes and taken the exams as opposed to having been an affirmative action quota student. Some of his finals are posted online. They look pretty shallow to me. On the order of Steve and Bruce want to rent an apartment but Lenny is a homophobic landlord, etc.

Hold on. Are you saying he didn't take the requisite courses to graduate, or that you feel his courses were inadequate, or just that you don't feel his papers were well-written?

As for affirmative action, let's not go there.

441 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:52:12pm

My degree is in music composition, but I can weld, wire and drive an 18 wheeler, and I placed pretty highly in the cop tests last year.

442 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:52:27pm

re: #431 sattv4u2

You are right. But the only reason she is speaker is because of all of the other Dems in Congress. We can't turn the fanatical LLL districts or states but there are certainly more than a few borderline areas that can be flipped.

443 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:52:31pm

re: #433 rawmuse

Now it falls to me to correct you.

She did have a rival that ran against her from her Left, in the person of Cindy Sheehan, last election.

hehehe ,, yes ,, I forgot! Close vote, too

72% to 17% !

444 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:52:32pm

re: #417 Desert Dog

I met many people in college that should not have been there. No offense to them, but they did not have the aptitude or temperament for that type of education. There is nothing wrong at all with learning a trade. I wish I had learned more about plumbing and electrical matters every time I have to call a repairman.

Yeah, I've met a few of those types during my time too. I think a portion of them believe college is the way to go because of their friends or their advisers and parents pushed them that way without ever understanding what the student wanted. I've noticed that it too depends on location whether vocational training is more readily accepted or not.

I'm also of the mind that students should really figure out the field they want to be in before they start training, though it's never easy. If a kid has to take a year off from school or a couple, then they should.

445 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:53:27pm

re: #443 sattv4u2

Cindy got more votes than the Republican.

446 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:53:33pm

re: #431 sattv4u2

Have you any idea the political demographics of Pelosi's district? There is NO WAY she gets voted out!

Sorry

Thanks for enlightening me on the fact that a Xanax dumbshit kept woman from the most un-American freakshow district in a tiny corner of the most powerful country on Earth can wreak havoc like hell doesn't have it. Is there something wrong here?

447 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:53:46pm

re: #427 unclassifiable

But we can send his mistress (Democratic controlled Congress) packing and replace her with a firm disciplinarian in 2010.

I support this aim. Giving the Congressional Dems the boot is the right way to lead into heading BHO his walking papers.

448 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:54:04pm

re: #440 SanFranciscoZionist

Hold on. Are you saying he didn't take the requisite courses to graduate, or that you feel his courses were inadequate, or just that you don't feel his papers were well-written?

Go to the link in post 411 and read through the questions Professor Obama posed to his Con Law students. He put the J in Joke.

449 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:54:24pm

re: #445 rawmuse

Cindy got more votes than the Republican.

sad!

450 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:54:30pm

BREAKING: Poll of change: Obama’s job approval slipping to ‘50-50’

The honeymoon is over, a national poll will signal tomorrow as President Obama’s job approval stumbles to about 50 percent over the lack of improvement with the crippled economy.

The sobering numbers come as the president backpedals from two prime-time gaffes - one comparing his bowling score to a Special Olympian and another awkwardly laughing about the economy, which prompted Steve Kroft of “60 Minutes” to ask “are you punch-drunk?”

Pollster John Zogby said his poll out in the morning will show Americans split on the president’s performance. He said the score factors out to “about 50-50.”

Some polls show Obama coasting with a 65 percent job approval, but not in Zogby’s tally.

Hat tip: Gateway Pundit

451 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:54:31pm

re: #445 rawmuse

Cindy got more votes than the Republican.

That is your district, yes? Or is she on the other side of the bay?

452 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:54:56pm

re: #411 Mich-again

Here is a link to all Obama's Con Law exams. Read the stupid and flippant questions from a prestigious law school (allegedly) and consider that the person who wrote those questions (allegedly) is now the leader of the most powerful Nation on Earth.

Remind me again not to run for president. The thought of my exams on Much Ado About Nothing going up on the web gives me the cold shivers.

453 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:55:07pm

re: #451 Desert Dog

No I live in SF. Not exactly downtown, but in the city.

454 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:56:13pm

Cold fusion experimentally confirmed

U.S. Navy researchers claimed to have experimentally confirmed cold fusion in a presentation at the American Chemical Society's annual meeting.

"We have compelling evidence that fusion reactions are occurring" at room temperature, said Pamela Mosier-Boss, a scientist with the Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center (San Diego). The results are "the first scientific report of highly energetic neutrons from low-energy nuclear reactions," she added.

Wouldn't that be sweet if it became commercially viable?

/all the bad people's oil becomes useless

455 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:56:13pm

re: #439 Desert Dog

Yeah, wish I woulda studied more business too. Live and learn. Never too late though.

456 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:56:14pm

re: #450 gmsc

Just who might be the 50% who approve? Any idea?

457 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:57:10pm

re: #456 Mich-again

Just who might be the 50% who approve? Any idea?

Hollywood & DC.

458 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:57:14pm

re: #453 rawmuse

No I live in SF. Not exactly downtown, but in the city.

I feel your pain. I lived IN Boston for many years. One conservative surrounded by liberal loons. Thank God I was smart enough to stock up on alcohol on Saturdays!

459 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:57:40pm

What the hell is going on at Fox News?

The "great Alex Jones"?!

460 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:57:45pm

re: #455 JohnAdams

Yeah, wish I woulda studied more business too. Live and learn. Never too late though.

Oh, I've learned, the hard way - on the job training. Actually, I learned a very important lesson from a competitor: Hire well and you'll be fine.

461 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:57:59pm

re: #450 gmsc

BREAKING: Poll of change: Obama’s job approval slipping to ‘50-50’

Hat tip: Gateway Pundit

This kind of slippage in the polls for The One are significant in that he is declining without any real organized Republican Opposition. The Republicans are in disarray and fractious. All of the news is about Obama this and Obama that. Republicans are hardly mentioned at all or if at all, only as footnotes.

Obama is losing ground against himself.

462 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:58:18pm

re: #458 sattv4u2

It's a love/hate thing. I have a lot of fun here. Sometimes a LOT of fun.
Other times, not so much.

463 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:58:35pm

With Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul?

Have I woken up in Bizarro World?

464 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:58:47pm

re: #411 Mich-again

Here is a link to all Obama's Con Law exams. Read the stupid and flippant questions from a prestigious law school (allegedly) and consider that the person who wrote those questions (allegedly) is now the leader of the most powerful Nation on Earth.

Good Lord. I looked at the first one, from 2003. The imaginary states in the problems are named Nirvana and Utopia.

465 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:58:52pm

re: #459 Charles

Reason number 6,329 why I don't have cable.

466 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:59:10pm

re: #453 rawmuse

No I live in SF. Not exactly downtown, but in the city.

Shite. That is a beautiful city but the moonbats would drive me to Sacramento.

467 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:59:15pm

re: #463 Charles

Lew Rockwell and Cindy Sheehan were an item for a while.

468 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:59:41pm

re: #460 Desert Dog

Oh, I've learned, the hard way - on the job training. Actually, I learned a very important lesson from a competitor: Hire well and you'll be fine.

This is the lesson business school should teach on day one.

469 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:59:51pm

re: #459 Charles

What the hell is going on at Fox News?

The "great Alex Jones"?!

[Video]

Well, I did point out a link from a certain site to Alex Jones last week.

New World Order! Alex Jones! Fox News!

470 Aviator  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 8:59:56pm

re: #467 rawmuse

ugg

471 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:00:00pm

re: #463 Charles

With Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul?

Have I woken up in Bizarro World?

I like the judge too.....he seems all hunky dorky with those guys...ehhhhh

472 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:00:12pm

re: #462 rawmuse

It's a love/hate thing. I have a lot of fun here. Sometimes a LOT of fun.
Other times, not so much.

I understand. Boston is a lot like San Fran. Arts, restaurants, the way the city is set up. Also like San Fran we had a "bigger" city (New York in our case, LA in yours) that we looked down on. We were BIG ,, but quant

473 Racer X  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:00:50pm

A Classic.....

An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently at the U.N. and made the world community smile.

A representative from Israel began-'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses. When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, 'What a good opportunity to have a bath!' He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. A Palestinian had stolen them.'

The Palestinian representative jumped up furiously and shouted, 'What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't there back then.'

The Israeli representative smiled and said 'And now that I have made that clear, I will begin my speech.'

474 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:01:06pm

re: #450 gmsc

BREAKING: Poll of change: Obama’s job approval slipping to ‘50-50’

Hat tip: Gateway Pundit

538.com will weigh all the polls, but gallup just showed a increase to 65 % approval today. I'll sure take a look at the Zogby poll though.

gallup.

475 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:01:50pm

re: #463 Charles

With Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul?

Have I woken up in Bizarro World?

Barak Obama is president.

Joe Biden is vice-president.

Hillary Clinton is Sec. of State.

The answer is yes.

476 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:01:55pm
477 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:01:59pm

re: #459 Charles

What the hell is going on at Fox News?

The "great Alex Jones"?!


[Video]

They have converted the Tube into a Tabloid.

478 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:02:45pm

re: #459 Charles

What the hell is going on at Fox News?

The "great Alex Jones"?!


[Video]

Made it less than 4 minutes in before I felt dizzy.

479 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:02:49pm

re: #474 avanti

538.com will weigh all the polls, but gallup just showed a increase to 65 % approval today. I'll sure take a look at the Zogby poll though.

gallup.

RCP Average

480 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:03:29pm

re: #444 Mr. In get Mr. Out

Yeah, I've met a few of those types during my time too. I think a portion of them believe college is the way to go because of their friends or their advisers and parents pushed them that way without ever understanding what the student wanted. I've noticed that it too depends on location whether vocational training is more readily accepted or not.

I'm also of the mind that students should really figure out the field they want to be in before they start training, though it's never easy. If a kid has to take a year off from school or a couple, then they should.

I took two years off after high school and worked as a typist/receptionist. This was so long ago, I really had a typewriter. And the switchboard used actual plugs, like Ernestine on Laugh-In. (I'm not really that old, it was just a very backwards company.) But my point is, it was a good thing for me because I was so over school, and it took me two years to realize I didn't want to be a receptionist for the rest of my life and maybe school wasn't such a bad idea after all.

481 freetoken  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:03:38pm

re: #454 Killian Bundy

The Navy has been doing low-level (and low visibility, for obvious reasons) funding on "cold fusion" for many years. I was tangentially familiar with the SPAWAR interests involved.

The Navy has long felt the need to find ways of providing energy to their craft - large and small, other than petrol (limited, becoming more scarce) and fission reactors (hazardous waste issues, costly.) Not only have they been interested in cold fusion, the Navy also was the last refuge (for funds) for the Polywell fusion people.

482 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:03:47pm

re: #452 SanFranciscoZionist

Remind me again not to run for president. The thought of my exams on Much Ado About Nothing going up on the web gives me the cold shivers.

Was Obama teaching a class about Shakespeare? I thought he was testing what his students learned in a semester of Constitutional Law.

Maybe he just stole your questions and changed the names and places to protect the innocent.

483 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:03:48pm

re: #474 avanti

538.com will weigh all the polls, but gallup just showed a increase to 65 % approval today. I'll sure take a look at the Zogby poll though.

gallup.

...and that's the report on the avanti-approved polls. Now back to the thread.

484 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:04:06pm

re: #478 gmsc

Made it less than 4 minutes in before I felt dizzy.

I'm still listening. I might collapse. Jones just read of a list of the usual conspiracy points: Trilateral Commission, CFR, NWO, etc.

485 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:04:09pm

re: #474 avanti

538.com will weigh all the polls, but gallup just showed a increase to 65 % approval today. I'll sure take a look at the Zogby poll though.

gallup.

Telling how his disapprove rating is in a slow and steady incline, while his approve is flat ( high of 69 ,, low of 59 ,, average 65 which it is "today")

486 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:05:04pm

Alex Jones is on Fox, with Lew Rockwell and Dan Rather is still hawking for CBS and MSNBC.

It's enough to make me drink again...

487 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:05:16pm

re: #484 Gus 802

I'm still listening. I might collapse. Jones just read of a list of the usual conspiracy points: Trilateral Commission, CFR, NWO, etc.

How did the CIA and Odessa avoid blame in this?

488 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:05:25pm

re: #469 Gus 802
This is getting almost as paranoid as some of the Memri videos.
- Ron Paul bumper-stickers are being tracked.
- The only thing the U.S. has left is our fiat dollar.
- The Chinese are engineering our economic collapse.

489 unclassifiable  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:05:34pm

Good night lizards.

Radio Unclassifiable signing off.

490 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:05:42pm

re: #459 Charles

What the hell is going on at Fox News?

The "great Alex Jones"?!

/isn't that the maniac that assaulted Michelle Malkin?

491 Kragar  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:05:53pm

re: #486 rawmuse

Alex Jones is on Fox, with Lew Rockwell and Dan Rather is still hawking for CBS and MSNBC.

It's enough to make me drink again...

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue

492 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:06:04pm

re: #486 rawmuse

Alex Jones is on Fox, with Lew Rockwell and Dan Rather is still hawking for CBS and MSNBC.

It's enough to make me drink again...

Makes me glad I never quit.

493 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:06:12pm

re: #488 jaunte

This is getting almost as paranoid as some of the Memri videos.
- Ron Paul bumper-stickers are being tracked.
- The only thing the U.S. has left is our fiat dollar.
- The Chinese are engineering our economic collapse.

Yeah, heard that too. The "Great" Alex Jones. Crazy.

494 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:06:12pm

re: #459 Charles

What the hell is going on at Fox News?

The "great Alex Jones"?!

Shark jumping and Mobyism.

495 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:06:20pm

re: #491 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue

I didn't know you were a democrat!

//

496 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:06:46pm

re: #487 gmsc

How did the CIA and Odessa avoid blame in this?

Oswald

//

497 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:07:27pm

re: #463 Charles

With Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul?

Have I woken up in Bizarro World?

Yep, with Obama in office I'd say we're in the nightmare world on the far side of the mirror.

498 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:07:41pm

re: #496 Gus 802

Oswald

//

Which one?

//

499 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:07:57pm

re: #490 Killian Bundy

/isn't that the maniac that assaulted Michelle Malkin?

Photos here:
[Link: www.lookingattheleft.com...]

500 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:08:27pm

re: #490 Killian Bundy

Alex Jones is also the maniac that inspired this man to plot mayhem.

501 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:08:31pm

re: #498 gmsc

Which one?

//

Harry. He's a distant cousin. Was a Corporal-Captain in the US Army.

//

502 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:09:24pm

re: #459 Charles

And they had this garbage on the same day that 4 Canadian soldiers died in Afghanistan.

Disgraceful.

503 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:10:01pm

re: #463 Charles

With Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul?

Have I woken up in Bizarro World?

You don't wake up in Bizarro World. Bizarro World wakes up in you.

504 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:10:24pm

Fox News has become a parody of themselves.

505 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:10:28pm

re: #500 rawmuse

Alex Jones is also the maniac that inspired this man to plot mayhem.

He's aligned with that "Cryptome" guy as well.

506 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:10:50pm

re: #499 jaunte

Photos here:
[Link: www.lookingattheleft.com...]

What a stud. Going after Michelle like that. How does he end up on Fox? They are going down the drain....fast!

507 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:10:51pm

bbiab

508 Mich-again  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:10:59pm

re: #504 Sharmuta

Fox News has become a parody of themselves.

That could tear a hole in the time-space continuum.

509 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:11:15pm

re: #454 Killian Bundy

It's been playing around with table top experiments with a Magnetohydrodynamic drive .
I works (sort of). Big fun.
/no shit.

510 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:11:45pm

re: #506 Desert Dog

What a stud. Going after Michelle like that. How does he end up on Fox? They are going down the drain....fast!

It's not like Ms Malkin's been treated poorly by Fox News before.....

511 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:12:46pm

re: #481 freetoken

The Navy has been doing low-level (and low visibility, for obvious reasons) funding on "cold fusion" for many years. I was tangentially familiar with the SPAWAR interests involved.

The Navy has long felt the need to find ways of providing energy to their craft - large and small, other than petrol (limited, becoming more scarce) and fission reactors (hazardous waste issues, costly.) Not only have they been interested in cold fusion, the Navy also was the last refuge (for funds) for the Polywell fusion people.

/that sounds something like pulse plasma fusion that one of my friends has been working on for the Air Force

512 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:12:52pm

ugh. Is LGF running really slow for anyone else or just me?

513 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:13:04pm

re: #506 Desert Dog

What a stud. Going after Michelle like that. How does he end up on Fox? They are going down the drain....fast!

Having Jones on in a guest spot is a final kiss-off to any tatters of credibility they might have been clinging to.

514 JohnAdams  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:13:11pm

OT: How does one embed a youtube video into a comment?

515 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:14:11pm

re: #514 JohnAdams

Just paste the link into the comment and that should do it.

516 LGoPs  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:14:17pm

Good night Lizards

517 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:14:19pm

re: #499 jaunte

Photos here:
[Link: www.lookingattheleft.com...]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Here's Alex Jones at the Bilderberg conference in 2008. Along with some other odd shots.

Note this is a link to cryptome.org

518 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:15:08pm

re: #459 Charles

Wow. I've been seeing this on the horizon for a while but I'm really surprised at how fast this is happening. Shocking yet predictable.

519 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:16:15pm

re: #459 Charles

Was that one Fox Cable channel? It looks like an internet podcast.

520 avanti  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:16:39pm

Night all, I want to read up on this Alex Jones guy before hitting the rack.

521 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:17:21pm

re: #510 Sharmuta

It's not like Ms Malkin's been treated poorly by Fox News before.....

My wife is a filipina and she loves Michelle. I agree with her much more than I disagree with her (Michelle, not my wife - I agree with her all the time, or else!).

522 Syrah  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:17:44pm

re: #520 avanti

Night all, I want to read up on this Alex Jones guy before hitting the rack.

Take some antacid tablets first. He will give you indigestion.

523 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:17:55pm

fox news has become a cesspool of loons and anti-semites.

524 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:18:27pm

I'm going to bed as well. Night all.

525 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:19:21pm

re: #519 Killgore Trout

Was that one Fox Cable channel? It looks like an internet podcast.

It's on Fox News, Wednesday at 2pm Eastern.

526 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:19:29pm

re: #524 Dark_Falcon

Later

527 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:20:30pm

re: #519 Killgore Trout

Was that one Fox Cable channel? It looks like an internet podcast.

It's a simulcast of a Fox radio show.

/when they get around to the Coast to Coast crowd we'll know we've completely crossed over

528 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:22:17pm

re: #525 Charles

It's on Fox News, Wednesday at 2pm Eastern.

The cable TV channel?

/Martha McCallum's not going to like that

529 freetoken  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:22:19pm

re: #511 Killian Bundy

Not sure about "pulse plasma fusion"... but there were designs for a pulse plasma transport drive (for space vehicles), using fission originally I think... perhaps they transitioned the idea to using fusion reactors?

The Bussard approach is delightfully elegant in its theoretical simplicity... but like all fusion approaches, the devil was discovered in the details...

Fusion, the power source that is always 50 years in the future.

530 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:22:43pm

re: #523 Sharmuta

Fox news is only a symptom of a much much larger problem. I see it here in the comments, I see it on most if not all "right wing" blogs. Some of those blogs I like and trust but I'm starting to approach a similar place to when I came home after watching Fahrenheit 9-11 and started to fact check. People are lying to us and too many people aren't checking their facts.

531 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:24:11pm

re: #529 freetoken

Not sure about "pulse plasma fusion"... but there were designs for a pulse plasma transport drive (for space vehicles)

/that's what he's been working on for at least 20 years now

532 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:25:03pm

re: #529 freetoken

Not sure about "pulse plasma fusion"... but there were designs for a pulse plasma transport drive (for space vehicles), using fission originally I think... perhaps they transitioned the idea to using fusion reactors?

The Bussard approach is delightfully elegant in its theoretical simplicity... but like all fusion approaches, the devil was discovered in the details...

Fusion, the power source that is always 50 years in the future.

I'm waiting for my Mr. Fusion so I can tell OPEC to pound sand!

533 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:25:20pm

re: #530 Killgore Trout

I agree in a lot of respects. I've said a couple of times now that people are not interested in facts- they are interested in propaganda that confirms their pre-existing notions.

BTW- uh- you read what an ex post facto law is, right?

534 Egregious Philbin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:25:57pm

For a good look into Alex Jones, get Jon Ronson's book "Them"

He travels with the nutters and kooks and lives to tell about it.

The best is traveling with Alex Jones, Alex goes commando and camps out in the woods to go to some sooper seekrit Bohemian Grove thingy. He plans on how to break in and all that. The author just buys casual clothes and walks in.

Hilarity ensues.

Alex Jones is a mega kook, pure nutbar, but, of course, he is always selling some paranoic book or tape to the rubes.

535 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:26:41pm

re: #532 Desert Dog

I'm waiting for my Mr. Fusion so I can tell OPEC to pound sand!

I had a Mr Coffee ,,, does that count ?

536 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:26:49pm

re: #532 Desert Dog

I'm waiting for my Mr. Fusion so I can tell OPEC to pound sand!

It won't help. Mr. Fusion powers the flux capacitor only. The engine runs on ordinary gasoline.

That's why they had to put the Delorean on rails in BTTF 3.

537 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:27:01pm

It's time for drastic measures, folks. A lizard version of the Libertarian attempt to take over a state. I'd prefer a warm one, if no one minds. We all move there and take over the political establishment. Pretty soon we've got the best-functioning state in the Union, the highest per-capita income, the best performing schools, and the lowest crime rate. Plus, all of you amazing people will be my neighbors, instead of people I only know online and rarely get to meet.

538 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:28:06pm

re: #534 Egregious Philbin

For a good look into Alex Jones, get Jon Ronson's book "Them"

He travels with the nutters and kooks and lives to tell about it.

The best is traveling with Alex Jones, Alex goes commando and camps out in the woods to go to some sooper seekrit Bohemian Grove thingy. He plans on how to break in and all that. The author just buys casual clothes and walks in.

Hilarity ensues.

Alex Jones is a mega kook, pure nutbar, but, of course, he is always selling some paranoic book or tape to the rubes.

Another thing to look up is "America: Destroyed by Design." I'm looking at a clip now. He's ranting about FEMA camps set up as concentration camps. The man is off his rocker.

539 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:28:37pm

re: #535 sattv4u2

I had a Mr Coffee ,,, does that count ?

I am running on my Mr. Coffee until my Mr. Fusion arrives

540 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:28:56pm

re: #538 Gus 802

re: #534 Egregious Philbin

He's the P.T. Barnum of Paranoia.

541 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:29:39pm

re: #537 doppelganglander

It's time for drastic measures, folks. A lizard version of the Libertarian attempt to take over a state. I'd prefer a warm one, if no one minds. We all move there and take over the political establishment. Pretty soon we've got the best-functioning state in the Union, the highest per-capita income, the best performing schools, and the lowest crime rate. Plus, all of you amazing people will be my neighbors, instead of people I only know online and rarely get to meet.

Green Gulch?

542 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:30:02pm

re: #534 Egregious Philbin

The Bohemian Grove is 2700 wooded acres. There is no fence around it. You can walk in from any direction. A river runs on one side of it, and therefore is a public easement.

Of course, it is private property and you can be ejected or arrested, but to describe it as some kind of compound is to laugh.

543 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:30:52pm

re: #536 gmsc

It won't help. Mr. Fusion powers the flux capacitor only. The engine runs on ordinary gasoline.

That's why they had to put the Delorean on rails in BTTF 3.

I don't have a flux capacitor either.....I guess I'm screwed then

544 sattv4u2  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:32:14pm

OT ,,,,,

Barney rank ,, classy to the very end !

[Link: apnews.myway.com...]

"I wouldn't want it to go to the United States Supreme Court now because that homophobe Antonin Scalia has too many votes on this current court," said Frank.

[Link: www.breitbart.tv...]

545 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:32:23pm

re: #538 Gus 802

Another thing to look up is "America: Destroyed by Design." I'm looking at a clip now. He's ranting about FEMA camps set up as concentration camps. The man is off his rocker.

546 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:33:06pm

re: #540 jaunte

re: #534 Egregious Philbin

He's the P.T. Barnum of Paranoia.

He ranted about Clinton. He ranted about Bush. He's now transitioning to ranting about Obama. On this clip I was watching he was going nuts about "Clinton wanting to get our blood and urine samples!" His other idea is about tracking/GPS capsules implanted into our bodies so the Federal Govt. can track us.

You know this I'm sure but I thought I'd type it out since I get the feeling that a lot of people aren't aware of his insanity.

547 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:33:47pm

re: #541 gmsc

Green Gulch?

Do you mean this place? There's room for all types. I'm thinking we shouldn't put it too close to the NASCAR track, though.

548 Egregious Philbin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:33:53pm

re: #542 rawmuse

The Bohemian Grove is 2700 wooded acres. There is no fence around it. You can walk in from any direction. A river runs on one side of it, and therefore is a public easement.

Of course, it is private property and you can be ejected or arrested, but to describe it as some kind of compound is to laugh.

In Jones' mind, it was full of all kinds of evil statists that did blood sacrifices and he would be killed etc by the secret "Them" Of course, it is just a place for rich swells to get together and act like they are still in a fraternity from the 1950's

Ronson's other great book is "The men who stared at goats" about some of the more wacky government projects, like remote viewing and the like.

549 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:34:37pm

re: #547 doppelganglander

Do you mean this place? There's room for all types. I'm thinking we shouldn't put it too close to the NASCAR track, though.

Whatever I say, I will never refer to anything in San Francisco.

I was playing off LGF and Galt's Gulch.

550 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:35:06pm

re: #545 gmsc

[Video]

Haven't heard that in a long time.

551 BlueCanuck  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:35:47pm

re: #546 Gus 802

Used to get a chuckle out of him when I listened to late night conspiracy radio. He would talk about the bohemian grove, the meetings around the world. Just exuded crazy.

552 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:36:14pm

re: #549 gmsc

Whatever I say, I will never refer to anything in San Francisco.

I was playing off LGF and Galt's Gulch.

Oh! I wasn't familiar with the Galt reference, as I refuse to read Atlas Shrugged. We can definitely vote on a name.

553 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:36:23pm

re: #533 Sharmuta
Yup.....
Ex post facto law

An ex post facto law (from the Latin for "after the fact") or retroactive law, is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences of acts committed or the legal status of facts and relationships that existed prior to the enactment of the law. In reference to criminal law, it may criminalize actions that were legal when committed; or it may aggravate a crime by bringing it into a more severe category than it was in at the time it was committed; or it may change or increase the punishment prescribed for a crime, such as by adding new penalties or extending terms; or it may alter the rules of evidence in order to make conviction for a crime more likely than it would have been at the time of the action for which a defendant is prosecuted.


It applies to criminal law, not tax law.....

A large "exception" to the ex post facto prohibition can be found in administrative law, as federal agencies may apply their rules retroactively if Congress has authorized them to do so. Retroactive application is disfavored by the courts for a number of reasons,[4] but Congress may grant agencies this authority through express statutory provision. Furthermore, when an agency engages in adjudication, it may apply its own policy goals and interpretation of statutes retroactively, even if it has not formally promulgated a rule on a subject.

In the 1994 opinion United States v. Carlton, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously held that retroactive tax laws did not violate the constitutional prohibition on ex post facto legislation, provided their retroactive application was "supported by a legitimate legislative purpose furthered by rational means".[5]

Nobody on the "right" is going to tell you this. It's an open secret that they are all lying about.

554 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:36:54pm

re: #551 BlueCanuck

Used to get a chuckle out of him when I listened to late night conspiracy radio. He would talk about the bohemian grove, the meetings around the world. Just exuded crazy.

Makes my heart rate climb. I've only listened to clip online which is about all I can take.

555 Racer X  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:37:07pm

Why men don't write advice columns.....

Dear Walter : I hope you can help me. The other day I set off for work leaving my husband in the house watching the TV as usual. I hadn't gone more than a mile down the road when my engine conked out and the car shuddered to a halt. I walked back home to get my husband's help. When I got home I couldn't believe my eyes. He was in our bedroom with the neighbor lady. I am 32, my husband is 34, and we have been married for twelve years.

When I confronted him, he broke down and admitted that they had been having an affair for the past six months. I told him to stop or I would leave him. He was let go from his job six months ago, and he says he has been feeling increasingly depressed and worthless. I love him very much! , but ever since I gave him the ultimatum he has become increasingly distant. He won't go to counseling and I'm afraid I can't get through to him anymore. Can you please help?

Sincerely, Anne

Dear Anne: A car stalling after being driven a short distance can be caused by a variety of faults with the engine. Start by checking that there is no debris in the fuel line. If it is clear, check the vacuum pipes and hoses on the intake manifold and also check all grounding wires. If none of these approaches solves the problem, it could be that the fuel pump itself is faulty, causing! low delivery pressure to the carburetor float chamber.

I hope this helps.

-Walter

556 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:37:23pm

re: #546 Gus 802

I don't know if he really believes his stories; looking at his history he may just be a high school graduate who discovered he had a talent for getting the real crazies worked up. Did you ever see "A Face In The Crowd?" I bet Alex has.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

557 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:39:11pm

re: #553 Killgore Trout

No- that says "In reference to criminal law". It's not exclusive.

558 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:40:13pm

re: #557 Sharmuta

In the 1994 opinion United States v. Carlton, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously held that retroactive tax laws did not violate the constitutional prohibition on ex post facto legislation, provided their retroactive application was "supported by a legitimate legislative purpose furthered by rational means".

559 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:40:19pm

re: #548 Egregious Philbin

There is a book called "Bloodlines of the Illuminati" which he frequently references, in which the names and some times the addresses of the so called illumined ones are listed. My name and address is in it along with people I know, he got our names from a party invitation in which I was a band leader, and yes, some VIPs were there.

So, obviously the next step is for me to control the world, right?

Jeez, I can transpose "Lush Life" up a half step, and because of that people think you are a fucking god or something. ;)

560 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:40:38pm

re: #558 Killgore Trout

In the 1994 opinion United States v. Carlton, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously held that retroactive tax laws did not violate the constitutional prohibition on ex post facto legislation, provided their retroactive application was "supported by a legitimate legislative purpose furthered by rational means".

561 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:40:58pm

re: #556 jaunte

I don't know if he really believes his stories; looking at his history he may just be a high school graduate who discovered he had a talent for getting the real crazies worked up. Did you ever see "A Face In The Crowd?" I bet Alex has.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I've always felt that he believes what he's ranting about. There something about the tone of his voice and the fluidity in which he speaks. If he's acting he's a good actor but I don't think it's an act. I really do think he certifiable. :)

562 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:41:01pm

re: #557 Sharmuta

No- that says "In reference to criminal law". It's not exclusive.

There is no way this mess is "supported by a legitimate legislative purpose furthered by rational means."

563 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:42:23pm

re: #561 Gus 802

It was pretty sly of him to go after someone with as much name recognition as Michelle Malkin, though. Very cost-effective publicity.

564 jorline  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:42:38pm

Kick these pricks out of NY...I'm sure Hugo or Putin would love to have them.

U.N. report condemns Israel for Gaza operation

Israeli soldiers routinely and intentionally put children in harm's way during their 22-day offensive against the Palestinians in Gaza, according to a United Nations report made public Monday.

The report said a working group had documented and verified reports of violations "too numerous to list."

I would quote more of the article, but it turns my stomach.

565 Macker  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:42:42pm

re: #544 sattv4u2

[Deleted]

566 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:43:30pm

re: #558 Killgore Trout

"supported by a legitimate legislative purpose furthered by rational means".


That leaves a lot of leeway for the state to tax pretty much as they wish. It might be unfair but it's still the law. People are more than free top say it's unfair but it is upheld by the court's interpetation of the Constitution. It's a stone cold fact.

567 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:43:50pm

re: #563 jaunte

It was pretty sly of him to go after someone with as much name recognition as Michelle Malkin, though. Very cost-effective publicity.

Good point. ;) Granted, in the end for all we, I, know it could very well be an act.

568 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:43:50pm

re: #564 jorline

Kick these pricks out of NY...I'm sure Hugo or Putin would love to have them.

U.N. report condemns Israel for Gaza operation

I would quote more of the article, but it turns my stomach.

"UN report condemns Israel"? Why is this considered news?

569 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:44:28pm

re: #568 gmsc

"UN report condemns Israel"? Why is this considered news?

It would be news if the UN praised or agreed with Israel

570 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:44:35pm

I think it's moot, Killgore. It hasn't passed the Senate, and if it does it sounds like 0bama will veto it.

571 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:45:02pm

re: #560 Sharmuta

Yes, that's pretty much a blank check that the legislature can do what it wants to without court approval.

572 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:46:14pm

re: #570 Sharmuta

I think it's moot, Killgore. It hasn't passed the Senate, and if it does it sounds like 0bama will veto it.

It's just a bill. Yeah, it's only a bill. And it's sitting there on Capitol Hill.

573 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:46:33pm

re: #570 Sharmuta

We'll see what happens. If it does pass the right seems pretty intent that AIG should get their bonuses that I'd guess they'll take it to court.

574 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:47:26pm

re: #566 Killgore Trout

When one side has all the badges and guns, that is the way things are often.

575 Desert Dog  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:47:29pm

Nite all, I have an early start...play nice

576 BLBfootballs  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:49:21pm

I increasingly suspect that any religion that cannot make its peace with evolution will expire in the 21st century.

577 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:50:56pm

re: #572 gmsc

Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (1939) - James Stewart

578 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:54:26pm

back--whad I miss?

579 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:55:21pm

Via a link from notutopia's link:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

This is the clearest explanation I've read on the Constitutionality of taxing the AIG bonuses. A key point:

"The government interest is (1) the avoidance of extraordinary rents to companies and their employees who are being subsidized by the government in order to keep the financial system working properly; and (2) preventing improper incentives and moral hazard in subsidized companies and their employees. Even if the tax is not well designed to achieve these goals, in the sense that other alternatives might achieve the government's purposes better, the tax substantially furthers these purposes.
[Link: balkin.blogspot.com...]
580 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:56:18pm

re: #578 ggt

back--whad I miss?

We agreed you should go out for doughnuts.

581 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:56:37pm

re: #578 ggt

back--whad I miss?

We're learning that only Killgore's interpretation of the US Constitution is the correct one.

582 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:56:55pm

re: #573 Killgore Trout

A number of the execs are returning the bonuses of their own free will, which is nice. But I still think the retro-active tax law proposal isn't as legal as you think.

I'm reading that 1994 decision, and it was concerning an error on the part of Congress in a tax law that was later amended to close a loop hole that wasn't intended by the original law because people were abusing/cheating the tax code. Seems to me a retro-active law Congress could get away with would be to revoke the funding for AIG- you know they're not going to do that. I think agreeing to give a company money, then retroactively taxing the money of some of the people employed by that company at a punitive rate would not qualify as "a legitimate legislative purpose furthered by rational means". It's neither legitimate nor rational.

583 Macker  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:57:40pm

re: #579 jaunte

That said, my take on the whole thing is this: Why the f**k should I work my a** off when Congress will tax the s**t out of my hard-earned bonuses!

584 jorline  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:58:57pm

re: #568 gmsc

"UN report condemns Israel"? Why is this considered news?

Let the UN set up shop next year at Gitmo...perfect setting.

585 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:59:04pm

re: #573 Killgore Trout

We'll see what happens. If it does pass the right seems pretty intent that AIG should get their bonuses that I'd guess they'll take it to court.

It's not so much that "the right" wants AIG execs to have their bonuses, more that the right doesn't want to see unfair, discriminatory and confiscatory legislation used to pummel any group, unpopular or otherwise.

Maybe we should write a letter to Obambi, and urge him to impose a 110% sin tax on hand-made cellos, because, obviously, no honest person needs a hand-made cello.

586 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 9:59:05pm

re: #583 Macker

It will have the unintended effect of creating a black market, as people become more creative about rewarding top performers.

587 hazzyday  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:00:11pm

re: #459 Charles

What the hell is going on at Fox News?

The "great Alex Jones"?!

I stopped watching at 46 seconds. Apparently the good judge never bothered to see this guy harass Michelle Malkin. Nothing like supporting a loud mouthed, violent, bully.

588 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:00:15pm

re: #580 EmmmieG

We agreed you should go out for doughnuts.

I'm not in the mood for doughnuts.

Pizza? (they deliver)

589 Irene NYC  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:00:45pm

Frankly, whether it's unconstitutional or not is not the point.

It's positively unAmerican.

;)

590 rawmuse  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:01:15pm

re: #586 jaunte

It will have the unintended effect of creating a black market, as people become more creative about rewarding top performers.

Barter is back, big time. And no, barter is not exempt from taxes. You still owe the State the cash, even when you don't make any.

591 Macker  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:01:44pm

re: #586 jaunte

It will have the unintended effect of creating a black market, as people become more creative about rewarding top performers.

And I'll bet there will be more than a few folks who would take advantage of that, just to frak the Government (and Оба́ма) over.

592 slokat  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:02:28pm

Off Topic: Found where Lizards got for spring break - The Perfect Rock

593 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:02:33pm

re: #588 ggt

I'm not in the mood for doughnuts.

Pizza? (they deliver)


Split the difference?

594 hazzyday  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:04:05pm

re: #582 Sharmuta

If we had let AIG go bankrupt there would be no contracts to honor there. Since the unique circumstance of Billion dollar tax relief occurred all these contracts could have been reviewed. I have yet to see a lawyer analyze any of these contracts as viable in these circumstances. It seems like they just want me to take their word for it.

595 jaunte  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:04:34pm

Goodnight all. Working for the Govt. cheese early tomorrow.

596 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:09:38pm

re: #592 slokat

Off Topic: Found where Lizards got for spring break - The Perfect Rock

In San Francisco (yeah, I know what I said in #549, but this is an exception), there was a very rocky section of coastline.

This rocky section of coastline was, not surprisingly, a popular place to gather for all the seagulls. There was one large rock there that the seagulls treated as their toilet. It was so covered in bird poop, it looked like dripping wax on a melted candle.

The local nickname for this bird-poop-rock was "Candlestick Rock". Yep, you guessed it! The land was purchased, a sports stadium was built there, and that's how "Candlestick Park" got it's name!

597 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:10:18pm

Band of Brothers Official Trailer

598 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:12:05pm

re: #597 Gus 802

Band of Brothers Official Trailer


[Video]

I wonder how many high school graduates today could even answer as to the origin of the phrase "Band of Brothers"?

/And I'm guessing none of them would have even heard of "St. Crispin's Day".

599 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:13:46pm

re: #598 gmsc

Shakespeare! Of course my knowledge of Shakespeare is rather limited.

600 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:16:56pm

re: #593 EmmmieG

Split the difference?

do they deliver?

601 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:17:34pm

re: #600 ggt

do they deliver?

Mmm...guess not. Oh well, I have to go to bed anyway, and all that chocolate and sugar would keep me up.

'Til tomorrow!

602 Gus  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:21:51pm

Saint Crispin's Day Speech

603 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:23:36pm

It seems to me as I read the decision of US v. Carlton that SCOTUS allows for Congress to retroactively amend tax law when the intent of the law was found to create a loophole that was not intended and the amendment provides for a reasonable retroactive period.

But the AIG tax wouldn't be a correction to existing tax law. It would be a one time punitive tax law designed to avoid revoking the full amount of money granted to AIG. But then- I'm not a lawyer. If this does become law, and passes Constitutional muster, then can we retroactively go after the bonuses of the executives in the car and airline industries?

Regardless- perhaps this will provide a much needed wake-up call to American business to avoid the perils of accepting government bailouts.

604 pink freud  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:25:43pm

Hi Sharm, I hope you're feeling better from last night.

605 cliffster  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:26:23pm

re: #459 Charles

What the hell is going on at Fox News?

The "great Alex Jones"?!

He's put on weight since the original Waco Conspiracy days.

606 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:27:21pm

re: #604 pink freud

Thank you, Sweetie- yes, I feel fine. Never did get a full migraine last night, but that certainly was the worst aura I've ever experienced.

607 pink freud  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:29:29pm

re: #606 Sharmuta

Happy to hear it. It sounded ominous. I am fortunate I have no first hand experience with these things, they sound like monsters.

608 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:30:00pm

re: #564 jorline

Re Gaza? It is an egregious lie. Carl in Jerusalem has the info on his blog.

I can't wait to see the [deleted] UN move their HQ to Tehran.

609 slokat  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:31:44pm

re: #596 gmsc

Doing other things, came back & noticed my typo in my post... - (negative)
Then found your Baseball reference + (positive)

Some times things work out...

thanks!

610 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:34:12pm

re: #609 slokat

Doing other things, came back & noticed my typo in my post... - (negative)
Then found your Baseball reference + (positive)

Some times things work out...

thanks!

Always glad to be of good cheer!

611 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:35:33pm

weet dreams all!

I'm beat.

612 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:35:58pm

re: #611 ggt

weet dreams all!

I'm beat.

Sleep well ggt!

613 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:36:34pm

I understand that Barney Frank (*spit*) is no longer advocating that the House pass the retroactive confiscatory bonus clawback legislation. Rather, he wants the Administration to go to Court to have the bonuses declared "not payable" on the basis that they were not earned under the existing contracts.


In an appearance on CBS's "Face the Nation" program, the Massachusetts Democrat acknowledged there is some opposition to the proposal since some lawmakers are against using taxes to punish executives from American International Group Inc. who were paid millions of dollars in bonuses after the insurance giant received a multibillion-dollar federal bailout.


House Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank said the government should “assert our rights” as the owner of taxpayer-funded American International Group Inc. and sue the company to return $165 million in bonus payments.

Policy makers also should address “the whole question of executive compensation and the perverse incentives” that result from how it’s structured, Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat, said today on CBS’s “Face The Nation” program.

“One of the things we ought to be doing is suing as a shareholder, saying ‘look these are people who were paid bonuses that they weren’t entitled to,’” Frank said.

I hate to agree with Barney (*blech*), but his suggestion is the only legal way for the government to try to undo the damage being caused by its corrupt bailout legislation.

614 Erik The Red  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:37:31pm

This is absurd. 'Fusion Centers' Expand Criteria to Identify Militia Members

I wonder how many of us Lizards fit this profile?

615 rikzilla  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:38:06pm

Science is not the enemy of religion...
history is.

-z

616 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:40:27pm

re: #607 pink freud

Well- the aura was painless, it just made it difficult to read. There was an arch of colorful and shifting zig-zagged light in my peripheral vision. It's never been that bad before, so I started researching what the heck was happening. I wasn't aware that migraine headaches can include nothing more than vision issues.

617 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:41:30pm

TOTUS

/heh

618 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:42:38pm

I knew better, but I just picked up this POS rag because it made me think of Zombie's campaign about Victory in Iraq.

Damn, I hate living in a blue area. Check out the article about the police shooting, too. Makes me think about Oakland. Threats have been made to the PPD. I know it doesn't look good but this guy has shot at police in the past. I also know a respected black guy who said one of brothers at the Elk's Lodge came in and said the guy drew on the cops first.

Sorry for the rant
[Link: www.pasadenaweekly.com...]

619 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:51:38pm

re: #618 Pvt Bin Jammin

Happens every time! You say hello, and I say g'nite, all!

Sweet dreams!

620 Silvergirl  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:53:22pm

re: #478 gmsc

Made it less than 4 minutes in before I felt dizzy.

I did all ten minutes. I may need a blood transfusion.

621 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:56:01pm

re: #619 NY Nana

Sweet dreams, {Nana}. My bp is up after reading that frigging rag. It'll be the new Rodney King deal.

622 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:58:01pm

What do you find when you use a lizard's screen name as a search term on YouTube?

NY Nana:

623 Silvergirl  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:58:26pm

I should go to bed too, but I can't imagine hitting the pillow with an Alex Jones rant in my head. I need a little time for that to clear.

624 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:59:50pm

We have a creationist whiner moaning about evo threads who just posted their whine on the previous one. They just love to wait until another one goes up so they have a better chance of bitching undetected for a while.

This particular post is so egregious that I reported it.

625 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 10:59:57pm

re: #622 gmsc

What do you find when you use a lizard's screen name as a search term on YouTube?

Pvt Bin Jammin:

626 MrPaulRevere  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:01:20pm

re: #623 Silvergirl

I try to avoid vitriolic language, but Alex Jones is pure trash. Something really strange is going on over at Fox news.

627 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:02:26pm

re: #622 gmsc

What do you find when you use a lizard's screen name as a search term on YouTube?

Pink Freud:

628 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:03:25pm

re: #625 gmsc

OMG that's pretty cute. ROTFLMAO

629 BatGuano  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:03:34pm

re: #619 NY Nana

Thank you. I'm 12 years old again. Good times.

630 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:04:46pm

re: #624 Salamantis

They just love to wait until another one goes up they think Charles isn't here so they have a better chance of bitching undetected for a while.

It's like clockwork.

631 Erik The Red  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:06:12pm

I see avanti has been busy again. 9 out of 10 on the bottom comments. He is either stupid or is a masochist.

632 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:07:04pm

re: #622 gmsc

What do you find when you use a lizard's screen name as a search term on YouTube?

I was introduced to mine long ago thanks to ploome:

633 abolitionist  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:07:23pm

re: #563 jaunte

It was pretty sly of him to go after someone with as much name recognition as Michelle Malkin, though. Very cost-effective publicity.

Agree. Alex Jones Confronts Michelle Malkin at The DNC 1/3

634 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:07:26pm

re: #631 Erik The Red

I see avanti has been busy again. 9 out of 10 on the bottom comments. He is either stupid or is a masochist.

Why can't he be both?

635 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:08:44pm

re: #625 gmsc

We had this new poster last night on one of the creationist threads who everybody thought was a troll. She said she was in the movie industry. I just happened to do a google search last nite:

[Link: cinema.jalbum.net...]

Who knows?

636 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:08:45pm

re: #459 Charles

What the hell is going on at Fox News?

The "great Alex Jones"?!


[Video]

WHAT?!? Un. Fucking. Believable. Fox News is dead to me. I don't have cable, but if I did, I would block that channel.

637 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:10:28pm

re: #621 Pvt Bin Jammin

Oh, no...I don't think we could stand another Rodney King event. It would spread nation-wide like a pandemic.

/I'll probably have nightmares!

{Pvt Bin Jammin}

638 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:11:13pm

re: #631 Erik The Red

I see avanti has been busy again. 9 out of 10 on the bottom comments. He is either stupid or is a masochist.

Both.

639 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:12:44pm

I thought Nana was going to bed. I hope you have a good night, {Nana}.

640 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:12:59pm

re: #632 Sharmuta

I was introduced to mine long ago thanks to ploome:


[Video]

Yeah, I was trying to not post that one. I just remembered the time you defined "Sharmuta" for the rest of us.

641 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:13:20pm

re: #637 NY Nana

It really looks bad for the cops at this point. Damn, I don't know what to think but my friend from the Elks seems to trust what his friend says.

642 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:13:30pm

re: #629 BatGuano

. I'm 12 years old again.

What a coincidence! Check my avatar. ;)

643 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:14:05pm

re: #641 Pvt Bin Jammin

I would trust the cop.

644 BatGuano  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:14:40pm

Ot: The greatest musical line up ever.

645 ladycatnip  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:15:24pm

#603 Sharmuta

But the AIG tax wouldn't be a correction to existing tax law. It would be a one time punitive tax law designed to avoid revoking the full amount of money granted to AIG. But then- I'm not a lawyer. If this does become law, and passes Constitutional muster, then can we retroactively go after the bonuses of the executives in the car and airline industries?

Regardless- perhaps this will provide a much needed wake-up call to American business to avoid the perils of accepting government bailouts.

I heard Mark Steyn (or was it Dennis Prager) talking about the dangers of this punitive tax - that it's unconstitutional and a very slippery slope for our gov to impose this on those execs. It's the prime reason we fought the Brits because King George III was imposing heavy punitive taxes on the Colonies. If this becomes law, then who's next - anyone getting on the bad side of whomever is in power. Very, very bad.

646 gmsc  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:15:33pm

re: #622 gmsc

What do you find when you use a lizard's screen name as a search term on YouTube?

Gus 802:

647 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:16:04pm

re: #639 Sharmuta

I was! I just checked to see if I had anyone to post back to! Hope that headache never comes back. {Sharmuta}

648 BatGuano  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:19:03pm

re: #642 NY Nana

It's good to be 12!

649 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:20:01pm

re: #643 NY Nana

I would trust the cop.

That's my inclination, too, and we (my neighboring city) have a great Chief of Police. This is pretty scary. I live in the sticks, nearby. LOL

650 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:22:26pm

re: #622 gmsc

Any lawyers around? I am suing! Wait a minute..my son the lawyer (seriously) will take care of this! ;)

ROFTL! I plead innocent. My hair isn't white, just some gray, and my 2 little granddaughters are not named Vanessa!

That really is hilarious! Anyone want to see if they can find a match for Avanti?

/I thought not.

651 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:25:20pm

re: #650 NY Nana

Now you are making me want to search Avanti after all, just for laughs.

652 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:25:28pm

re: #649 Pvt Bin Jammin

Pvt, no one is ever guilty. *cough* *cough*, and after the cold blooded murder of the 4 cops? I pray we never see anything like this again.

May G-d help their families and their fellow police, and the community.

It takes a very special person to be a cop, and they put their lives on the line for us.

653 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:26:59pm

re: #651 Pvt Bin Jammin

Email me if you do! Got to go to sleep...nearly 2:30 AM!

Sweet dreams!

654 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:28:07pm

re: #652 NY Nana

My heart is broken over those Oakland officers. What a crazy world we live in.

655 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:30:03pm

re: #653 NY Nana

Will do. I am about to fade, myself.

Sweet dreams, {Nana}

656 NY Nana  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:30:43pm

re: #654 Pvt Bin Jammin

My heart is broken over those Oakland officers. What a crazy world we live in.

I just sat their and cried. Damn it. At least California will not have to pay to keep the f*ing killer in prison, getting his 3 squares, exercise, etc. But no one can ever replace the cops he murdered in cold blood. No one.

G'nite.

657 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:34:26pm

re: #653 NY Nana

Just a quick search:

658 lostlakehiker  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:37:51pm

re: #422 kansas

Teleprompter obviously did not help in writing those exams.

Nor did mastery of basic grammar figure in. Michael and whoever, the gay couple, had spent a decade devoting themselves ON their careers.

Not TO their careers.

Somebody who can write that, cannot write "Dreams". Not by himself.

659 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:41:04pm

So I guess I can officially say f*ck Fox News. Alex Jones? Really? Really?

Interesting comment at that YouTube link:

Even little old ladies from church are talking about the food bill and they do not want to lose their back yard gardens. I ask everyone to OPPOSE THE FOOD BILL TODAY IN YOUR STATE -Email your reps today!

Must be talking about this item at World Nut Daily. WTF is going on with people these days.

660 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:44:08pm

re: #659 Slumbering Behemoth

You were the only one to ding up my comment about people wanting propaganda over the truth. I think I'm correct in this observation. And Killgore is right- no one checks facts for themselves anymore it seems.

661 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Mar 23, 2009 11:53:15pm

re: #660 Sharmuta

Your statement is correct, even if I was the only one to ding it. It should be obvious to anyone that looks around that many people are more interested in propaganda than facts.

Look at the folks who spew DI talking points. Look at who we have in the Oval Office. Look at Fox News inviting "the great Alex FUCKING Jones" on.

People don't want facts, or truth. They want vapid, ruinous garbage. Lizards excepted, of course.

662 Strobe  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:12:40am

Sorry to be so late to the topic, but I long ago solved all problems between Creation and evolution.

Evolution was the whimsical way God chose to create all the separate species, each one after his kind. Their all-knowing, all-powerful God mixed all the ingredients into the original cosmos in exactly the right way to ensure that, after a few billion years, Man would evolve in His image.

Is there any of the anti-Darwin crowd foolish enough to argue that this would be much too difficult for their god to accomplish?
If they'd claim god doesn't have the sense of humor needed to play such a joke on them, I'd point out that this is the same god they claim designed the platypus.

663 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:37:21am

re: #654 Pvt Bin Jammin

My heart is broken over those Oakland officers. What a crazy world we live in.

The people growing up on cop hate aren't being corrected by their community leaders. Rather people inflame their rhetoric over a few bad incidents. yes, it is bad how this worked out. I doubt if any meaningful protest will occur.

Dumb F*kers like this kid need to be publicized as such.

664 Tigger2005  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 3:53:10am

re: #61 Egregious Philbin

And it all comes down to "its a miracle!"

Sorry, I can't include "miracle" in my calculations, if I did, I'd have to create a constant for such fanciful beings Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Canadians.

The problem is that too many people are incapable of extrapolating consequences. Unfortunately, the very success of rationalism and science has contributed to this. People have lived very sheltered, comfortable lives, and it seems to them that the world as we know it today will always be there, no matter what they personally think and believe. There do not seem to be any consequences for holding ridiculous beliefs. And most people are historically ignorant as well, so they have no inkling of the horros that can result when irrationality prevails. Even worse, those who do have some inkling of at least recent history have been brainwashed into thinking that the horrors of the 20th century were a direct consequence of the prevalence of science and rationality and that irrationality and absurdity is the only solution. Actually those horrors resulted when science and rationality were made subservient to ignorance and irrationality.

665 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 6:57:03am

re: #635 Pvt Bin Jammin

We had this new poster last night on one of the creationist threads who everybody thought was a troll. She said she was in the movie industry. I just happened to do a google search last nite:

[Link: cinema.jalbum.net...]

Who knows?

Me.

That page only has 'Daisy 22' on it because it's the 22nd picture in the series of pictures of someone called 'Daisy'. There's no reason to believe there is any connection to our creationist troll Daisy.

666 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 7:12:27am

So....Alex Jones on Fox.

After watching Glenn Becks recent insane performances on Fox, this really doesn't surprise me.

Reading the comments supporting Beck etc on various sites at the moment, it looks like the right in America is melting down in a quite alarming way, and Fox is gleefully exploiting and encouraging it.

667 Erik The Red  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 7:40:15am

Just to get off the Devils number

668 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 8:41:29am

I agree that the lawsuit was frivolous. I still do question why there was a need to even mention compatibility between evolution (which is an overloaded term anyway) and religion at all? What purpose does the state website need for comforting readers or promoting religious harmony with a field of science?

669 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 8:44:15am

re: #668 jimc

The web site mentioned that science and religion can be compatible because young earth creationists keep pushing the meme that they're not.

670 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:07:20am

re: #669 Sharmuta

The web site mentioned that science and religion can be compatible because young earth creationists keep pushing the meme that they're not.

Just to be perfectly clear using logic: evolution IS A field of science but science IS NOT evolution. Don't conflate science as a whole with evolution...and Young Earth Creationist do not reject Science, they reject evolution and old earth claims. It is intellectually dishonest to continue this "they reject science" attack and quite frankly it is childish and unbecoming of supposed intellectuals.

Given that let's both be perfectly clear, the quote is "Darwinism can be compatible with religion" Why would a state owned science website have any need to proclaim this?

671 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:13:03am

I see the religious fanatic is at it again. Has he you told you all that you're doomed to burn in hell yet?

672 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:15:13am

re: #670 jimc

Jimmah, I see you down dinged me, any particular reason? I don't really care about being down dinged but I wonder what part of my comment caused you to down ding it? Was there anything not factual or something you can't understand about it?

I look forward to your response (if you are capable).

673 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:15:59am

re: #670 jimc

Yes- young earth creationists DO reject science- more than just evolution. They reject any aspect of science that conflicts with their religious dogma, such as carbon dating.

674 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:20:56am

re: #671 Charles

I see the religious fanatic is at it again. Has he you told you all that you're doomed to burn in hell yet?

Religious Fanatic? I am a veteran of the US army, have a BS in CS, been a software engineer for over 13 years, no police record and consider myself a patriot, yet because I believe in my faith and am not slack or squishy, I am reduced to religious fanatic...mmkay. Glad to see tolerance in action...

675 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:21:35am

re: #670 jimc

Don't conflate science as a whole with evolution...and Young Earth Creationist do not reject Science, they reject evolution and old earth claims.

Don't be stupid. Creationism is incompatible with not only the findings of biological science, but also the findings of geology, astronomy, cosmology and paleontology.

676 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:23:05am

re: #672 jimc

Jimmah, I see you down dinged me, any particular reason? I don't really care about being down dinged but I wonder what part of my comment caused you to down ding it? Was there anything not factual or something you can't understand about it?

I look forward to your response (if you are capable).

Because your post was absolutely idiotic. See above.

677 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:23:19am

re: #674 jimc

Religious Fanatic? I am a veteran of the US army, have a BS in CS, been a software engineer for over 13 years, no police record and consider myself a patriot, yet because I believe in my faith and am not slack or squishy, I am reduced to religious fanatic...mmkay. Glad to see tolerance in action...

Yes, religious fanatic is what I said. It's laughable that you're talking about "tolerance," when in a previous thread you told us that everyone who doesn't believe what you do is doomed to burn in eternal torment.

678 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:25:26am

This is the jimc who strenuously denied being a creationist here not so long ago, making him a liar on top of everything else.

679 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:26:36am

re: #670 jimc

Just to be perfectly clear using logic: evolution IS A field of science but science IS NOT evolution. Don't conflate science as a whole with evolution...and Young Earth Creationist do not reject Science, they reject evolution and old earth claims. It is intellectually dishonest to continue this "they reject science" attack and quite frankly it is childish and unbecoming of supposed intellectuals.

Given that let's both be perfectly clear, the quote is "Darwinism can be compatible with religion" Why would a state owned science website have any need to proclaim this?

While all science is not evolutionary, all evolutionary theory is indeed science, and indeed evolutionary biology has emerged and arisen from experimental investigation of and subsequent logical derivation from the empirical data within its purview in the selfsame way that physics, chemistry, geology, astronomy, and the rest of the empirical sciences have, When you attack one part of science, you are attacking the entire scientific edifice, for it is that scientific enterprise that has agreed that evolution is a valid, solid and sound part of it. In fact, Darwin's evolution is one of the three most important theories in all of empirical science, along with Einstein's relativity and Feynmann's quantum mechanics, and it has been as thoroughly evidentially supported as any theory in empirical science.

680 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:27:33am

re: #674 jimc

You are a fanatic because of your denial of factual reality and your willingness to lie for your 'cause'.

681 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:32:10am

re: #673 Sharmuta

Yes- young earth creationists DO reject science- more than just evolution. They reject any aspect of science that conflicts with their religious dogma, such as carbon dating.

Well if that helps you sleep better at night to dream of evil Creationist burning science books, so be it...

682 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:32:58am

re: #678 Jimmah

This is the jimc who strenuously denied being a creationist here not so long ago, making him a liar on top of everything else.

I didn't deny that, show me a link, otherwise I call you a liar sir!

683 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:33:43am

re: #680 Jimmah

You are a fanatic because of your denial of factual reality and your willingness to lie for your 'cause'.

Show me my lie sir...I dare you...

684 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:33:43am

re: #681 jimc

And you have the gall to chide us for intellectual honesty! No where did I say or even imply such a thing as you just stated.

685 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:34:30am

re: #679 Salamantis

An honest answer...thank you.

686 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:37:16am

re: #677 Charles

Yes, religious fanatic is what I said. It's laughable that you're talking about "tolerance," when in a previous thread you told us that everyone who doesn't believe what you do is doomed to burn in eternal torment.

And if you don't believe that, then you're safe from all harm correct? I simply told you what the Bible says on the subject, accept it or not, that's up to you, I am not forcing you to believe my faith, that by definition is against my faith...

687 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:37:24am

re: #683 jimc

Show me my lie sir...I dare you...

I'll get it in a bit. Dinner time first.

688 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:40:52am

re: #687 Jimmah

I am giddy with excitement...can't wait!

689 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:43:01am

re: #686 jimc

And if you don't believe that, then you're safe from all harm correct? I simply told you what the Bible says on the subject, accept it or not, that's up to you, I am not forcing you to believe my faith, that by definition is against my faith...

In that case you should also be opposed to the shoehorning of religious dogmas into public high school science classes, the teaching of these sectarian creation myths as if they were empirical fact, and the official indoctrination of other peoples' kids into them whether they like it or not.

690 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 9:52:19am

re: #686 jimc

And if you don't believe that, then you're safe from all harm correct? I simply told you what the Bible says on the subject, accept it or not, that's up to you, I am not forcing you to believe my faith, that by definition is against my faith...

Actually, this is incorrect. If Charles doesn't believe it, then he BELIEVES that he is safe from all hellfire and brimstone harm, which is a different thing than being ACTUALLY safe from such harm, while you, who DO believe it, consider him to still be subject to the threat of eternal torment for disagreeing with your religious position.

Peronally, though, I don't think Charles needs to buy asbestos underwear...;~)

691 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 10:07:35am

re: #683 jimc

Show me my lie sir...I dare you...

Ok, here is how you responded to my suggestion that you are a creationist:

from [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #1241 Jimmah

Whereas concepts like "hell" "eternal damnation" and "god created the earth in six days - no, really!" are fine and dandy.

jimc:


Are you completely deranged? Where on earth did you pull that out of? Why would I want public kids taught about Hell and eternal damnation in public schools?#

re: #1249 Jimmah

I notice you don't seem to have a problem with the "god created the earth in six days - no, really" bit.

jimc:

Well, you've done it. You've have absolutely convinced me that you are in fact a moron.

692 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 10:11:57am

jimc appears to be in no hurry to respond to either my #675 or Sala's 679.

693 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:08:19am

re: #690 Salamantis

Yes, you are correct, he BELIEVES he is safe from it. Point taken.

694 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:09:29am

re: #692 Jimmah

jimc appears to be in no hurry to respond to either my #675 or Sala's 679.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know this was instant messenger and there was a time limit, my bad, I thought I had time to leave my computer to go to the store and buy groceries and medicine and stuff...won't make that mistake again..

695 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:12:21am

re: #689 Salamantis

In that case you should also be opposed to the shoehorning of religious dogmas into public high school science classes, the teaching of these sectarian creation myths as if they were empirical fact, and the official indoctrination of other peoples' kids into them whether they like it or not.

I am opposed to it and I have stated as much on here several times.

Let me make another announcement....


HEAR YE, HEAR YE,
I DO NOT WANT ID OR CREATIONISM TAUGHT IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS!

696 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:18:47am

re: #691 Jimmah

One you're wrong, again...

Two, your "proof" only goes to show me just how much in fact a moron you appear to be. You appear to be confused with the fact that I am a creationist who *doesn't want ID or Creationism taught in public schools*. I know you've probably not been instructed on how to handle this situation so I'll give you some grace. But you have failed to show where I have lied and therefore, you are left with the following conclusions:
1. Your reading comprehension is sorely lacking and probably due to public school system, so I'll forgive you that.
2. You're intentionally falsifying the facts and therefore a dishonest person.
3. You've made a mistake for which I'll forgive as well.

So...

697 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:23:20am

re: #695 jimc

I am opposed to it and I have stated as much on here several times.

Let me make another announcement....


HEAR YE, HEAR YE,
I DO NOT WANT ID OR CREATIONISM TAUGHT IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS!

But you should also have no objection to the empirical science of evolution being taight in public high school science class.

698 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:25:36am

re: #694 jimc

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know this was instant messenger and there was a time limit, my bad, I thought I had time to leave my computer to go to the store and buy groceries and medicine and stuff...won't make that mistake again..

You avoided responding to either post while you were still here, so that excuse doesn't work.

And you still haven't responded.

699 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:30:52am

re: #696 jimc

If you didn't understand that my comment:

I notice you don't seem to have a problem with the "god created the earth in six days - no, really" bit.

Was my implication that you are a creationist, then you have severe comprehension problems.

Given that, your response:

Well, you've done it. You've have absolutely convinced me that you are in fact a moron.

could only be construed as a denial of such. If that isn't what you meant then you clearly have both comprehension and communication problems, in addition to being a creationist moron.

700 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:35:40am

re: #677 Charles

Yes, religious fanatic is what I said.

I'd like to explore this a bit further.

Charles, in my opinion a religious fanatic is someone who straps a bomb to their child and sends them off to get on a bus full of Jewish kids and remote detonates their child believing the child will go to heaven for killing Jews.

That's a religious fanatic, would you agree?

I on the other hand simply have a different belief system than you (and apparently quite a few on here), yet I force nothing on you, nor do I want to take evolution away from you (or from schools, just think it should be presented differently or made optional in K-12). I would even go as far to dare to say that I'm probably the most agreeable creationist you've ever not banned. I do not to ban evolution nor keep others from pursuing the study of it.

I do not present any harm to you, and desire not to force you to accept my faith. I simply share my faith through words and at the end of it all I consider you a patriot and man of truth.

So to you I'm a religious fanatic?

It's laughable that you're talking about "tolerance," when in a previous thread you told us that everyone who doesn't believe what you do is doomed to burn in eternal torment.

My beliefs are neither tolerant nor intolerant because my beliefs cannot prejudice you. My actions could be intolerant but my beliefs cannot. I have neither caused you to lose liberty nor persecuted you for your beliefs. I do not even desire you any ill-will whatsoever. However, you have shown intolerance towards those who are not of the same beliefs as you. I'm not trying to hack you off but your disdain for creationist oozes from the site. You have shown however a measure of tolerance of me specifically by not banning me (yet).

701 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:37:00am

re: #697 Salamantis

I don't as long as it were optional, that's about as radical as I get...

702 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:39:49am

re: #700 jimc

So- a woman who wakes her children up in the middle of the night to do push-ups and who refuses to let her children go to the bathroom until they finish a chore and does so to break her children in the name of Jesus isn't a fanatic in your opinion. Fanatics are only found in one religion? Is that what you're saying?

703 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:42:19am

re: #701 jimc

I don't as long as it were optional, that's about as radical as I get...

Actually, teaching basic evolutionary bioscience in public high school science classes should just as be mandatory as teaching basic chemistry and physics; teaching science is what public high school science classes are all about.

704 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:44:06am

re: #700 jimc

Sure - everything that isn't muslim fundamentalism is kewl/.

Sorry, that won't work here.

705 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:49:26am

re: #698 Jimmah

I did respond to Sal's (I clearly approved of his response him by thanking him for his honest reply), I think calling you a moron at this point is superfluous.

The example you gave was exactly what I expected, something you clearly have no clue as to what you're reading and had to pull something not only out of your read but had to at water and massage it into anything resembling a coherent rebuttal. But alas you fail again...

706 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:55:05am

re: #702 Sharmuta

So- a woman who wakes her children up in the middle of the night to do push-ups and who refuses to let her children go to the bathroom until they finish a chore and does so to break her children in the name of Jesus isn't a fanatic in your opinion. Fanatics are only found in one religion? Is that what you're saying?

No, that is not what I am saying but neither do I think your example applies to me. In fact the term fanatic is relative. I'm just trying to establish a baseline with Charles....at what point of practicing ones own beliefs crosses over into fanaticism in his view...

707 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:56:12am

re: #704 Jimmah

Sure - everything that isn't muslim fundamentalism is kewl/.

Sorry, that won't work here.

Did I say that? No. Nor did I imply it. I think you'd best stick to just downdinging...

708 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:59:14am

re: #703 Salamantis

Actually, teaching basic evolutionary bioscience in public high school science classes should just as be mandatory as teaching basic chemistry and physics; teaching science is what public high school science classes are all about.

What part of highschool biology requires evolution to be taught, specifically. I'm not being facetious, I would like to know just how much a highschooler needs to know about evolution in order to be properly schooled in science. I happened to have been taught at public schools and I was in the advanced courses. I can assure you that evolution played very little role in anything taught at that level. Granted that was the 1980's but still...

709 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:59:21am

re: #706 jimc

You could always look "fanatical" up in the dictionary.

710 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:02:58pm

re: #708 jimc

Creationism wasn't banned from the classrooms until 1987. Many schools glossed over evolution to not raise the ire of creationist parents. As for the requirements to teach evolution- those would be in the state academic standards.

711 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:07:46pm

re: #708 jimc

What part of highschool biology requires evolution to be taught, specifically. I'm not being facetious, I would like to know just how much a highschooler needs to know about evolution in order to be properly schooled in science. I happened to have been taught at public schools and I was in the advanced courses. I can assure you that evolution played very little role in anything taught at that level. Granted that was the 1980's but still...

Theodore Dobzhansky has famously and correctly said that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution. Evolution provides the overarching framework within which biological facts fall into place relative to each other. Evolution is also massively supported by the empirical evidence, while creationism lacks a single shred of empirical evidence support, which is why evolution is science and creationism is not, and why evolution belongs in public high school, science class while creationism does not. Especially in biology instruction.

Also, these days much has been discovered and done in genetics that wasn't even dreamed of a quarter century ago. Genetics is most definitely a subject that should be taught in public high school science class, just like paleontology should be, and it is literally impossible to do either of them justice in the absence of instruction in evolution - just like it is impossible to do biology justice in the absence of evolution instruction.

712 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:11:06pm

And also, many so-called 'transitional fossils' that had not been unearthed in the 1980's have been discovered since - such as the fossil record of the emergence of life from the sea to land, and the return of the ancestors of whales from the land to the sea. The explanations of these transitions necessarily involve evolution instruction.

713 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:15:16pm

re: #700 jimc

You are a young earth creationist and Biblical literalist who thinks he has a direct line to God, and believes that every single person who doesn't share your particular faith is doomed to burn in hell for all eternity.

Fanatic. If the shoe fits.

714 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:16:09pm

re: #705 jimc

I did respond to Sal's (I clearly approved of his response him by thanking him for his honest reply), I think calling you a moron at this point is superfluous.

Thanking someone for their honest reply is not what would be considered a substantial response. You can do that while agreeing or disagreeing with what they said. In your case, it is very obviously a tactic for avoiding a proper response. Calling someone a moron is easy, however proving that you are a moron yourself with each post you make is for you even easier.

The example you gave was exactly what I expected, something you clearly have no clue as to what you're reading and had to pull something not only out of your read but had to at water and massage it into anything resembling a coherent rebuttal. But alas you fail again...

Is this supposed to be a belated response to my 675? Who knows...?

715 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:21:30pm

re: #707 jimc

Did I say that? No. Nor did I imply it. I think you'd best stick to just downdinging...

Yes you did:

Charles, in my opinion a religious fanatic is someone who straps a bomb to their child and sends them off to get on a bus full of Jewish kids and remote detonates their child believing the child will go to heaven for killing Jews.

That's a religious fanatic, would you agree?

You effectively narrowed the definition of fanatic to muslim fundamentalist and implied that since you are not one of them, you are not a fanatic. This is something that creationist fanatics do all the time when they are trying to stifle criticism.

716 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:24:03pm

re: #709 Sharmuta

You could always look "fanatical" up in the dictionary.

The dictionary term doesn't meet the level of implied negative connotation used here...

717 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:29:29pm

re: #711 Salamantis

while creationism lacks a single shred of empirical evidence support, which is why evolution is science and creationism is not, and why evolution belongs in public high school, science class while creationism does not.


Yes yes I agree with this, can we not repeat ourselves, I beg of you.

Also, these days much has been discovered and done in genetics that wasn't even dreamed of a quarter century ago. Genetics is most definitely a subject that should be taught in public high school science class, just like paleontology should be, and it is literally impossible to do either of them justice in the absence of instruction in evolution - just like it is impossible to do biology justice in the absence of evolution instruction.

I believe you over-estimate the level of science achieved in highschool. That sounds to be college level academia to me and I'm fairly sure American public schools have not improved in their quality of teaching highschool science, I could be wrong but I doubt it. Any highschool science teachers out there care to validate what is being taught at the highschool level?

718 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:32:12pm

re: #715 Jimmah

You effectively narrowed the definition of fanatic to muslim fundamentalist and implied that since you are not one of them, you are not a fanatic. This is something that creationist fanatics do all the time when they are trying to stifle criticism.

You're a moron. I gave an example, just like Sharmuta gave an example of the woman who forced her kid to pee his pants. I gave an example of what I would consider a fanatic. I gave no indication that it was limited to Islamic fundamentalists, if you took that way, I'm sorry you have a problem with reading comprehension...

719 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:33:55pm

re: #713 Charles

You are a young earth creationist and Biblical literalist who thinks he has a direct line to God, and believes that every single person who doesn't share your particular faith is doomed to burn in hell for all eternity.

Fanatic. If the shoe fits.

Then fine, in your definition, I'm a fanatic. So what level of religious beliefs falls below the "fanatic" line for you?

720 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:43:34pm

re: #718 jimc

No one's comprehension is the issue here- you used exclusionary language and seem to have a poor ability to make your points.

721 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:46:58pm

re: #718 jimc

You're a moron.

I thought calling me a moron was superfluous? Keep it up. All you are doing is showing how bereft of ideas you are. And you still haven't even attempted an answer to my #675, or Sals #679. You obviously haven't got a clue how to respond.

I gave an example, just like Sharmuta gave an example of the woman who forced her kid to pee his pants. I gave an example of what I would consider a fanatic. I gave no indication that it was limited to Islamic fundamentalists, if you took that way, I'm sorry you have a problem with reading comprehension...

No, you disingenuous piece of shit, you attempted to define fanatacism, not merely give an example of it:

Charles, in my opinion a religious fanatic is someone who straps a bomb to their child and sends them off to get on a bus full of Jewish kids and remote detonates their child believing the child will go to heaven for killing Jews.

Sharmuta on the other hand did give an example, the purpose being to show showed that your narrow definition of fanatic doesn't hold.

722 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:48:27pm

re: #720 Sharmuta

No one's comprehension is the issue here- you used exclusionary language and seem to have a poor ability to make your points.

It would seem you have a need to defend your fellow downdinger. He clearly made a weak attack and instead of admitting his error decided to continue down a path into the pathetically challenged.

I made no generalization about what a fanatic was, I gave a specific example of what I would call a fanatic. If you want to agree with your reading impared friend, then that's your choice.

723 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:48:47pm

re: #706 jimc

but neither do I think your example applies to me.

WTH? Where did I say my example applied to you?

724 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:51:21pm

re: #723 Sharmuta

WTH? Where did I say my example applied to you?

You didn't. This line of discussion is rooted in Charles calling me a fanatic. You mentioning the woman as an example of a fanatic was meant to show Christian fanaticism. I excluded myself from that group. Are we ok then?

725 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:52:05pm

re: #722 jimc

It would seem you have a need to defend your fellow downdinger.

Please stop whining about downdinging. You've downdinged nearly every post of mine in this exchange do far. Not that I'm complaining - it's your right to do so. I just don't whine about it.

726 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:55:29pm

re: #722 jimc

I made no generalization about what a fanatic was, I gave a specific example of what I would call a fanatic. If you want to agree with your reading impared friend, then that's your choice.

I think we are reading you just fine.

727 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:56:53pm

re: #721 Jimmah

I thought calling me a moron was superfluous?

It is but it still is most apt.


No, you disingenuous piece of shit, you attempted to define fanatacism, not merely give an example of it:

Is English your primary language? I don't want to assume anything...

No, you disingenuous piece of shit, you attempted to define fanatacism, not merely give an example of it:

OK, moron, my statement:

my opinion a religious fanatic is someone who straps a bomb to their child and sends them off to get on a bus full of Jewish kids and remote detonates their child believing the child will go to heaven for killing Jews.

Does that exclude Jim Jones? David Koresh? etc etc.? No it doesn't . I didn't feel it was necessary to list all possible examples of religious fanaticism instead chose an obvious common example that I was assured Charles would agree upon. If my mistake was not to add "and there are other examples", man I am sorry for confusing you so greatly...

728 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 12:59:26pm

re: #726 Jimmah

I think we are reading you just fine.

Denial is the first sign of a problem...and no one else has made completely asinine accusations and then was too much of a coward to admit the mistake.

729 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:01:48pm

re: #725 Jimmah

Please stop whining about downdinging. You've downdinged nearly every post of mine in this exchange do far. Not that I'm complaining - it's your right to do so. I just don't whine about it.

Yeah, seems like common practice to downding, so I want to be part of the group...but at least I like to try and give cause for the downding...

730 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:08:11pm

re: #729 jimc

Yeah, seems like common practice to downding, so I want to be part of the group...but at least I like to try and give cause for the downding...

-543 Karma! Whoohoo! Am I the lowest yet? Do you have lowest and highest Karma stats listed somewhere? If not, let that be a suggestion...

731 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:13:47pm

re: #727 jimc

It is but it still is most apt.

When applied to you, yes.

OK, moron, my statement:

my opinion a religious fanatic is someone who straps a bomb to their child and sends them off to get on a bus full of Jewish kids and remote detonates their child believing the child will go to heaven for killing Jews.


Does that exclude Jim Jones? David Koresh? etc etc.? No it doesn't .

YES IT DOES! Saying a religious fanatic is X can only be read as a definition. You did not say 'X is an example of a religious fanatic'. And given that you were trying to defend yourself against the accusation of being a fanatic, what would be the point anyway of merely giving an example of another kind of fanatic? We all know that religious fanatics come in many flavours. You aren't kidding anyone.

732 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:15:24pm

re: #729 jimc

Yeah, seems like common practice to downding, so I want to be part of the group...but at least I like to try and give cause for the downding...

Pathetic.

733 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:19:28pm

re: #731 Jimmah

YES IT DOES! Saying a religious fanatic is X can only be read as a definition. You did not say 'X is an example of a religious fanatic'. And given that you were trying to defend yourself against the accusation of being a fanatic, what would be the point anyway of merely giving an example of another kind of fanatic? We all know that religious fanatics come in many flavours. You aren't kidding anyone.

OH you got me, yes, I thought I could fool everyone into thinking ONLY those who strap bombs to their kids to blow up Jews were the ONLY fanatics, not the Islamist who saw off peoples heads with a swiss army knife, no not them mother-scratchers, but them other dudes, yes on them and specifically those that strap bombs to their kids. But don't be confused, the people who strap bombs to themselves are clearly NOT fanatics because I didn't include them either, no, neither did I include the snake handlers or Scientologists, nope JUST THOSE WHO STRAP BOMBS TO THEIR KIDS TO BLOW UP JEW KIDS, that narrow specific group ARE THE TRUE AND ONLY FANATICS.

Get the point now, moron? You can't have it both ways, either I was being that specific to give an example or you truly are stupid enough to believe that only those who strap bombs to their kids are the only fanatics...

Please for all that is kind and holy, don't respond...

734 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:20:06pm

re: #732 Jimmah

Pathetic.

Just following by example...

735 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:22:23pm

re: #728 jimc

Denial is the first sign of a problem...and no one else has made completely asinine accusations and then was too much of a coward to admit the mistake.

Wrong. I have demonstrated that I drew perfectly reasonable conclusions from what you said. No apology from me is required.

736 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:29:25pm

re: #733 jimc

No, like countless other creationists who have made abject fools of themselves on these threads, you thought you could divert attention away from your own fanaticism by pointing to muslim fanatics.

Please for all that is kind and holy, don't respond...

I'll respond to your bullshit while I am still here whether you like it or not, chump. Please do respond to posts 675 and 679, though. We are still waiting.

737 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:31:19pm

re: #735 Jimmah

Wrong. I have demonstrated that I drew perfectly reasonable conclusions from what you said. No apology from me is required.

Then address re: #733 jimc and tell me that you *actually* want to continue to act as if you're not screwy in the head...

738 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:33:20pm

re: #737 jimc

Then address re: #733 jimc and tell me that you *actually* want to continue to act as if you're not screwy in the head...

Already did - see post 736.

739 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:41:53pm

re: #736 Jimmah

No, like countless other creationists who have made abject fools of themselves on these threads, you thought you could divert attention away from your own fanaticism by pointing to muslim fanatics.

I'll respond to your bullshit while I am still here whether you like it or not, chump. Please do respond to posts 675 and 679, though. We are still waiting.

Apparently you do think you're not screwy in the head. Well, I can't force you to gain wisdom...

Please do respond to posts 675 and 679, though. We are still waiting.

I responded to Sal. But I chose not to repeat myself in responding to 675, it is too tiring and if you'd like you can browse all of my previous comments and find the replay you so desperately think you need. Short answer is I disagree but everyone knew that already as I have stated as much several times over several threads...I however am not arguing for the teaching of creationism so if you like building strawmen and tearing them back down, that's fine, but don't expect me to roll in the hay with you...

740 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:43:06pm

re: #738 Jimmah

Already did - see post 736.


Yes, which further emphasizes the fact this isn't instant messaging...

741 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 1:56:16pm

re: #739 jimc

Your post to Sal was a classic non-response, which complimented him on his honesty while addressing precisely zero of it's content. Unless of course we are to believe that you agree with what he said, which would be strange since it utterly refuted you.

But I chose not to repeat myself in responding to 675, it is too tiring and if you'd like you can browse all of my previous comments and find the replay you so desperately think you need.

Crap. You won't respond to the charge that creationism is in conflict with not just biology but several other major sciences as well because you know you can't without making an even bigger fool of yourself. If you can't stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen, as they say.

I think we're done here.

742 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 2:15:26pm

re: #741 Jimmah

Your post to Sal was a classic non-response, which complimented him on his honesty while addressing precisely zero of it's content. Unless of course we are to believe that you agree with what he said, which would be strange since it utterly refuted you.

I responded to

While all science is not evolutionary, all evolutionary theory is indeed science

to which I said an honest answer. The rest of his comment, we've already put forth arguments several times over and over and it was unnecessary for me to start another round. I'm stubborn but I'm also smart enough to recognize where we can make ground and where we're simply going to disagree. Apparently you're not that smart and insist on re-hashing and replaying old comments over and over until someone cries uncle...


I think we're done here.


Amen! Finally we can agree...moron... ;-)

743 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 2:16:52pm

re: #740 jimc

Yes, which further emphasizes the fact this isn't instant messaging...

Wow, this got downdinged....truly hysterical...keep it boys! I shooting for the record!

744 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 2:17:35pm

re: #743 jimc

Please check your sexist assumptions in at the door.

745 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 2:20:36pm

re: #744 Sharmuta

Please check your sexist assumptions in at the door.

LOL, good one, I should have said, "Keep it up, asexual anonymous virtual personalities!", lesson learned!

746 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 2:26:00pm

You know guys, and I mean that in a non-sexual identifying way, I hope you understand that even though I butt heads with you, I still realize we're all civilized human beings and at the end of the day would welcome any of you to sit down and share dinner as good company, just to ensure no hard feelings. I really feel bad I was so harsh on Jimmah and I apologize...

747 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 3:54:11pm

What people have to understand her is the nature of fundamentalism. That will help them to understand jimc. For jimc is a Genesis Literalist Young Earth Creationist, and it's damn hard to remain one of those unless you ARE a fundamentalist.

The basic division to be investigated here is not between Christians and nonChristians, but between fundamentalists and non-fundmentalists. There are both fundamentalists and nonfundamentalists within every patriarchal monotheistic faith (Jews, Christians, Muslims). But within Christianity, the expansion of American-style Christian fundamentalism is a relatively recent (last hundred years or so) phenomenon.

Basically, it had to do with the acceleration in the rate of knowledge discovery. Some people were frightened and confused by this knowledge explosion, and decided to turn their backs upon it, and become Luddites, because of their fear of a strange and incomprehensible (to them) future. In fact, they would like nothing more than for the Rapture to come, and stop the advance of that future altogether.

How did they abandon and forsake this disquieting future? By elevating a Biblical Literalist faith (at least they CALL it literalist, but it can't really be that, since there are many different fundamentalists sects, that, err, fundamentally disagree, and they'll all jump through convoluted interpretational hoops in order to scripturally derive the conclusions they desire, all the while flatly while denying that they are doing so) over and above both empirical evidence and the logic that can derive conclusions from it. That way they don't have to think about what's being newly discovered any more and the ever-changing face of knowledge; they can retreat into their hidebound version of unchanging faith.

This explains the words of one of their favorite hymns (note the repetition for emphasis):

On Christ the Solid Rock I stand
All other ground is shifting sand
All other ground is shifting sand.

Now by Christ they actually mean all of the sectarian dogmas of their particular denomination, but by 'all other' they literally mean everything else, even the repeatably checkable testimony of on's own senses. When irrefutable logic or even empirical reality itself contradicts the tenets of their faith, they reject irrefutable logic and empirical reality, and actually feel virtuous for doing so, as if they had passed some cosmic test of faith. Such a stance is absotively, posilutely impervious to all evidence, rationality or reason, and doesn't take much intelligence to stubbbornly embrace (in fact, a lot of intelligence can actually be detrimental to the maintainence of such a stance, as such folks are typically willing to entertain other perspectives and question their own).

Note also that they follow the Great Commission (Go ye therefore and TEACH all nations). That's right; teach, and only teach - because they don't believe they have a damn thing to learn from anybody else. They are supremely and unjustifiably (as if they case) self-confident in their stubborn and willful ignorance, and in fact extremely proud of it, for it demonstrates an adherence to their chosen One True Way. God already taught them all they need to know. All jimc is doing here is fishing for souls.

Why, then, has Charles allowed jimc to stay, after removing others who have told him that he's going to Hell?

I believe it is because jimc is doing precisely (and inadvertently) the opposite of what he intends to do here. Rather than draw people to his cause, he is serving as an object lesson as to why folks should give religious mindsets such as jimc's the widest possible berth.

748 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 3:59:24pm

A few pimfs:

What people have to understand here

(as if they care)

749 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 8:36:15pm
Why, then, has Charles allowed jimc to stay, after removing others who have told him that he's going to Hell?

Baffles even me. Thanks for the synopsis of my faith however I think you over complicated the message. I'm what you call a Bible Believer, means roughly the same as Literalist, but more accurately defines my faith. I defer everything to God and everything is subject to His authority and nothing is beyond His ability, nothing. Space, time, reality, physics, chemistry, everything bends to His will. So if evolution is eventually proven, then I'm ok with it because I believe it would be God given and there would be a purpose for it, if it is not and there is some other explanation, I'm ok with that doesn't matter. What you got wrong at least in my beliefs and my local body of believers, is that I don't chuck knowledge or fear knowledge but I subject it to the the Bible.

You see, you think we have to suspend our intellect to believe in God's literal Word and I agree that some have done this very thing to their own detriment as you put it. However, some of us are very intelligent, in fact I've always excelled in math and science during my school years. I was in college majoring in Electrical Engineering with Math and Computer Science minors, then I found I liked CS better than EE so I switched majors. This is of course before I became a Christian. I know there are a lot of Christians who rather not understand anything about the science they reject and that's unfortunate. I on the other hand grew up with science as my favorite subject and I still am quite fond of the subject. I want to know about these things even if I don't agree with it, I still want to understand the reasoning behind it and seek to find out as much as I can with little time I have. I don't reject anything outright and I don't claim to know everything. When I first became a Christian I was an old earth evolutionist Christian. Genesis was a metaphor to me to explain the process of creation in simpler terms. However, as I pondered what it means to be God and have His unlimited unimaginable power and having all things at His control, I began to see our world through a different perspective not from my puny human mind but from outside. God isn't subject to our natural world. He is not bound by our laws nor even His own. Reality is like puddy in His hands. He can bend time and rewind it if He so desires and we may never know it happened. God exists both inside our reality and outside at the same time. He is both in the present moving along with us and also in all points of space and time simultaneously all the while keeping everything straight. Our minds are incapable of grasping just how big God is. If God wants the Earth to appear old, then it will be old. IF He wants evolution to be truth then it will be truth. So you see I don't care if evolution is true or not, whatever God wants is well with my soul. I think it is funny how some of you try to fit God into a box, a little set of rules by which He *must* abide, lol. I find it hysterical to watch shows on Discovery Science and the like that can talk of string theory and branes and how the Big Bang was an intersection of two branes creating our universe...maybe, or maybe God created it just as it is and in our vanity we believe we can know it all and He his just amused by it all...I wonder how many of you who reject God or at least limit him loved the character Q on ST:TNG....

750 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 8:38:06pm

re: #749 jimc

Evolution has been proven.

751 jimc  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 8:50:03pm

re: #750 Sharmuta

Evolution has been proven.

I've not been convinced and I'm willing to read, watch whatever can be thrown at me as long as they don't mention "over millions of years, yada yada yada" That doesn't cut it with me. I want to know how someone with a straight face can say a million year old dead (as in no DNA) fossil is the ancestor to another million some year old fossil with only fragments of each.

I'll tell ya the best thing I've read so far that got me thinking was the retro-virus article but even that, again in my opinion, can be explained otherwise.

But you know I really don't care, I truly, I believe that these Christians are being foolish to try to get ID or Creationism into public schools, that's not going to do anything for Christ. I really actually regret even commenting on here this last week. I've wasted so many hours arguing over insignificant junk and for what? To have the established majority put the hurt on my Karma? (That really bums me out man, like totally). No, I've not served my purpose well. It is futile to argue about evolution and creationism, mainly because my view of creationism is not understood and I don't think I can adequately explain it to those who have to have things in such concrete terms. I might do better with theoretical physicists...they can imagine really crazy stuff...

752 Jim D  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 10:03:17pm

re: #751 jimc

It is futile to argue about evolution and creationism, mainly because my view of creationism is not understood and I don't think I can adequately explain it to those who have to have things in such concrete terms. I might do better with theoretical physicists...they can imagine really crazy stuff...

Doubtful. Theoretical physicists tend to constrain themselves to facts and reason.

753 JimC  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 10:37:32pm
Doubtful. Theoretical physicists tend to constrain themselves to facts and reason


Oh, ok, you got me there, why didn't I anticipate that devastating rebuttal...

754 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 10:52:10pm

The several different mutually confirming radiometric dating methods, as well as the strata from which the fossils are removed, establishes their age, and their configurational similarities establishes their species relation. We have also established the age of the earth in like manner, and the age of the Universe from the red shift coefficient of the Big Bang echo background radiation. And we have found identical (not just similar) minerals in the west side of Africa and in the east side of South America, conclusively demonstrating that they were once one continent, that drifted apart due to tectonic shifts that have taken place over many millions of years.

If Genesis is literally true then God has systematically lied to humanity by planting massive amounts of false empirical evidence in both soil and genes. You say that God isn't bound by any rules, even the rules that God established (that sounds more like the Muslim Allah against whom Pope Benedict objected in his Regensburg speech than the Christian God, but I digress). Do you mean to tell me that of God decided that 1 ( . ) plus 1 ( . ) equaled seventeen ( ................. ) tomorrow that it would be the case? Or if God decided that if all A is B and all B is C, that God could dictate tomorrow that no A would be C and it would be true? And what about moral laws? Can a God who intentionally and with full foreknowledge lies to God's own creation in the book of nature in such a manner that it inevitably leads those who accept empirical evidence to doubt part of the Scripture, and therefore question the rest of its message, thus risking eternal torment, be considered to be perfectly benevolent and good?

And would an absurd or malevolent deity deserve our worship and reverence simply because it had the power to do wondrous or terrible things to us? Are we then no more than dogs who still lick the hand of a mistreating master who occasionally throws some of them bones?

Such a deity-conception is unacceptable to me on purely ethical grounds. I cannot bring myself to accept an absurd or malevolent God, so I cannot accept that any God worthy of my obesiance and respect would lie to its children in such a gratuitously injurious manner. Just like I have a problem with the logical inconsistency of infinitely rewarding us for finite virtues, or eternally condemning us for short-lived vices (vitures and vices being defined as belief and unbelief). Not can I see how we can be held responsible for anything from an omnipotent and omniscient deity who thus must have known and willed our every thought, word and action from the beginning of time, and have already written down in the book of life who would be headed to Heaven and who would be headed to Hell, beyond any ablity for us to change it, long before we were born. Plus omniscience and omnipotence are as logically mutually exclusive as are an irresistable force and an immovable object. Invoking mystery and incomprehensibility does nothing to answer these objections. Rather I must conclude that humans mistakenly assigned such deific attributes.

For these reasons, I cannot accept that the empirical evidence that science finds has been manufactured by a deceiving deity, and I must therefore conclude that the Book of Genesis is metaphorical rather than literal.

Besides, we know via recheckable-at-will genetics that Mitochondrial Eve was born 140,000 years ago, 50,000 years before Y-Chromosomal Adam, so the Genesis account cannot literally be true regarding such humans, just as we know via recheckable-at-will shared artifactual retroviral DNA sequences that humans and great apes were not independently and as-is-created, but evolutionarily diverged from a common hominid ancestor, just as all terrestrial species share a small set of ancient common ancestors. And Richard Lenski has shown spontaneous genetic mutation and evolution of e. Coli in his laboratory, and since he systematically saved generations of them, he can replay it at will.

755 JimC  Tue, Mar 24, 2009 11:08:03pm

re: #754 Salamantis

If God made 2+2=5, you'd would never know it ever equaled 4. That's a silly example but it underscores the fact that even in your dissection of an omnipotent being, you still confine Him to your rules. Since when does God have to be logical or even make sense? Why do you insist that God fit into our universe? Why do you insist that God has to explain anything to you? If you don't want to subscribe to a literal Genesis, then don't. It doesn't matter. The creation was never a central doctrine that was part of atonement either in the OT nor the NT.

756 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:52:45am

re: #755 JimC

If God made 2+2=5, you'd would never know it ever equaled 4. That's a silly example but it underscores the fact that even in your dissection of an omnipotent being, you still confine Him to your rules. Since when does God have to be logical or even make sense? Why do you insist that God fit into our universe? Why do you insist that God has to explain anything to you? If you don't want to subscribe to a literal Genesis, then don't. It doesn't matter. The creation was never a central doctrine that was part of atonement either in the OT nor the NT.

See? It's just like I said. If impeccable logic or empirical evidence contradicts your beloved beliefs, then you will reject impeccable logic and empirical evidence. You will revel in the absurd and nonsensical, and take great pride in doing so. There is no point in reasoning with you, for you have abandoned all reason, and no purpose in engaging you in rational debate, for you have forsaken all rationality. You are impervious to cogency or coherence, and care neither for the indisputable testimony of your own senses nor for the irrefutable chain of causality from observed premise to necessarily entailed conclusion. It's not a matter of right thinking with you, it's a matter of what feels good. Your emotions hold imperial sway over your intellection, and your heart rules over your mind. You have willingly amputated your own brain.

757 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 5:28:11am

re: #756 Salamantis

No, Sal, we're not communicating well. I don't turn off my brain. In fact it is similar to what evolutionist do when something isn't explainable yet. What do they do? They say "Well we don't know yet how this evolved to do what it is doing but eventually a natural explanation will be found." This is similar to what I do except I attribute it to God instead of having faith in our own cleverness, I have faith in God.

You're are like a computer, fantastic consumer of information. You will be great at disseminating that information. You know the rules, on or off, true or false. You are so weighed down, constrained, burdened by conventional thought that you are incapable of thinking outside the box. You would never be someone who comes up with the next leap of knowledge because you are so bound to what you can see with your own eyes and touch with your own hands that the greater things escape you. You look backwards never forwards, always down at your feet and never up to imagine possibilities beyond this cold hard world. You are so anchored to this your observable world that you forfeit what your mind is capable of. This is the difference between you and I. It is not that I cannot know and understand and learn the things you are so desperate to cling to, touch, and see. No, I can understand those things but I am also capable of thinking bigger beyond what is visible, touchable. I imagine that if left unfettered man would advance science enough only to find God staring back at them, but our time will end before that happens and you will no longer be able to be anchored to the things of this world and what will you be left with? Nothing.

758 Mr Secul  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 6:11:27am

re: #756 Salamantis

Haven't you worked it out yet? He's an attention seeker. Its not about evolution or creationism, its all about jimc.

759 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 6:18:35am

re: #758 Mr Secul

Haven't you worked it out yet? He's an attention seeker. Its not about evolution or creationism, its all about jimc.

Attention seeker...lol. Yes, I'm all about the attention I get from anonymous online evolutionist...it is what I dream for....if only it were that simple...

760 Yashmak  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 7:26:36am

re: #757 jimc


You're are like a computer, fantastic consumer of information. You will be great at disseminating that information. You know the rules, on or off, true or false. You are so weighed down, constrained, burdened by conventional thought that you are incapable of thinking outside the box. You would never be someone who comes up with the next leap of knowledge because you are so bound to what you can see with your own eyes and touch with your own hands that the greater things escape you. You look backwards never forwards, always down at your feet and never up to imagine possibilities beyond this cold hard world. You are so anchored to this your observable world that you forfeit what your mind is capable of.

Did you copy a horoscope off of The Onion or something? I note you manage to slip in a nice bit of self-aggrandizement there too, implying that you're the opposite of these imagined shortcomings of Sal. It does mesh nicely with Mr.Secul's estimation of your character.

761 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 7:30:39am

re: #760 Yashmak

Did you copy a horoscope off of The Onion or something? I note you manage to slip in a nice bit of self-aggrandizement there too, implying that you're the opposite of these imagined shortcomings of Sal. It does mesh nicely with Mr.Secul's estimation of your character.

Thanks for your 2 cents. I'll be sure to file that away...

762 Jim D  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 9:00:11am

re: #757 jimc

Yeah Salamantis. You need to open your mind and base all of your beliefs on a single translation of a single book.

763 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 9:04:11am

re: #762 Jim D

Yeah Salamantis. You need to open your mind and base all of your beliefs on a single translation of a single book.

Another 2 cents, at this rate I'll be rich soon!

764 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 11:18:09am

re: #757 jimc

No, Sal, we're not communicating well. I don't turn off my brain. In fact it is similar to what evolutionist do when something isn't explainable yet. What do they do? They say "Well we don't know yet how this evolved to do what it is doing but eventually a natural explanation will be found." This is similar to what I do except I attribute it to God instead of having faith in our own cleverness, I have faith in God.

No, what happens is that creationists throw up their hands and say well, GodDidIt, it's forever beyond our understanding how or why GodDidIt, so since we can never get an answer to such questions, it is useless to try to ask or explore them. GodDidIt is not an answer to ANY question; it's a refusal to even TRY to answer.

But wht do empirical scientists in general, and evolutionary theorists in particular, do? They say hmmm; here is a phenomenon that is not predicted or explained by our particular model. Let's investigate and experiment to ascertain the precise scope, parameters, and characteristics of this novel phenomenon, and then attempt to abstract a specific theory of it from the empirical evidence thus obtained with which we can modify, elaborate, augment or refine our general model so that this new phenomenon is included.

The fact that you do not even grok this difference demonstrates your egregious ignorance of the experimental method of empirical science; an ignorance that is easy to understand once one understands your rejection of both logic and empirical evidence in favor of dogmatic faith.

You're are like a computer, fantastic consumer of information. You will be great at disseminating that information. You know the rules, on or off, true or false. You are so weighed down, constrained, burdened by conventional thought that you are incapable of thinking outside the box. You would never be someone who comes up with the next leap of knowledge because you are so bound to what you can see with your own eyes and touch with your own hands that the greater things escape you. You look backwards never forwards, always down at your feet and never up to imagine possibilities beyond this cold hard world. You are so anchored to this your observable world that you forfeit what your mind is capable of. This is the difference between you and I. It is not that I cannot know and understand and learn the things you are so desperate to cling to, touch, and see. No, I can understand those things but I am also capable of thinking bigger beyond what is visible, touchable. I imagine that if left unfettered man would advance science enough only to find God staring back at them, but our time will end before that happens and you will no longer be able to be anchored to the things of this world and what will you be left with? Nothing.

Nope. Religious fundamentalists such as yourself have boxes outside which they will not permit yourself to stray; these boxes are their particular interpretations of their chosen scriptures. Whatever is seen to contradict with what they are supposed by their adherents to be saying is dismissed, denied or ignored out of hand, no matter how strongly it is logically or empirically supported.

Empirical science have no such boxes. Its only constraints are the empirical evidence itself, and the logic by means of which general principles and theories are extracted and derived from it. Such principles are not imposed upon the empirical evidence like some a priori religious dogma; they emerge and arise from the empirical evidence itself, and any principles or theories that are contradicted by that empirical evidence are discarded, regasrdless of how fondly they might have been previously regarded. And empirical investigators and researchers experimentally interrogate the natural world, and follow the empirical evidence they uncover wherever it logically leads, without fear or favor.

to be continued...

765 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 11:27:02am

Unlike dogmatic religious fundamentalism, empirical science as a discipline is thus bias-free, able through experimental repetition and peer review to filter out the personal prejudices of individual empirical scientists, and unlike religious fundamentalism, forever welded to ancient errors dogmatically frozen in place for all time, empirical science thus corrects its errors, progressively and increasingly more closely approximates the actual way the world is as more empirical evidence is garnered from it and more understanding arises from that empirical evidence, and thus continually evolves and advances as a discipline.

766 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 11:28:40am

re: #764 Salamantis

Nope...

Well, I'm done. We're not going to agree, ever. You don't understand my point and I can't adequately explain it being constrained by your rules, so it is pointless.

Obla di obla da....

767 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 11:29:58am

re: #765 Salamantis

empirical science as a discipline is thus bias-free


Empirical science is bias free, I agree, unfortunately, when man gets involved, the purity can be lost.

768 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 11:39:46am

re: #764 Salamantis

Crap I really need to rebuke this...

Empirical science have no such boxes.

You seem to be confusing empirical science and man. One does not equal the other. Empirical science is something man can try to achieve but inevitably via mistakes or willfulness, man tarnishes the concept with agendas and bias...

769 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 11:40:35am

re: #768 jimc

Crap I really need to rebuke this...

You seem to be confusing empirical science and man. One does not equal the other. Empirical science is something man can try to achieve but inevitably via mistakes or willfulness, man tarnishes the concept with agendas and bias...

I need to clarify, man *can* tarnishes the concept with agendas and bias...

770 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 11:44:38am

re: #764 Salamantis

A lengthy addition and a short typo correction follow:

augment or refine our general model so that this new phenomenon is included. or, when very rarely (any more) necessary, even discard the current model altogether, and build a new model from scratch (such a case is very rare these days because the more that has been learned, the more errors have been filtered out, and the fewer remain to be corrected, as new evidence progressively more seamlessly fits within current models or minor modifications or elaborations of them; Darwin was not contradicted by Mendel, but complemented by him, as Einstein's relativity plus Feynmann's quantum mechanics together comprise the standard model of physics, and Newton was not falsified by Einstein, but rather subsumed but preserved as a more specific part of a more general theory).

permit themselves to stray

pimf

771 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 11:47:58am

re: #768 jimc

Crap I really need to rebuke this...


You seem to be confusing empirical science and man. One does not equal the other. Empirical science is something man can try to achieve but inevitably via mistakes or willfulness, man tarnishes the concept with agendas and bias...

No I'm not. As I just now said in # 765:

Unlike dogmatic religious fundamentalism, empirical science as a discipline is thus bias-free, able through experimental repetition and peer review to filter out the personal prejudices of individual empirical scientists

772 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 11:56:50am

re: #768 jimc

Crap I really need to rebuke this...

Rebuke, not refute? That is one hilarious freudian slip of the typo tongue...;~)

It succinctly highlights the unfortunate mindset under which religious fundamentalists labor, and with which nonfundamentalists unfortunately have to deal in their exchanges with them.

773 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 11:57:06am

re: #771 Salamantis

No I'm not. As I just now said in # 765:

Unlike dogmatic religious fundamentalism, empirical science as a discipline is thus bias-free, able through experimental repetition and peer review to filter out the personal prejudices of individual empirical scientists

Are you saying you don't think there is any peer pressure *ever* to align results that on a subconscious level works its bias into the work? You do know you're talking about mere mortals right?

774 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 11:59:18am

re: #767 jimc

Empirical science is bias free, I agree, unfortunately, when man gets involved, the purity can be lost.

775 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:03:45pm

re: #773 jimc

Are you saying you don't think there is any peer pressure *ever* to align results that on a subconscious level works its bias into the work? You do know you're talking about mere mortals right?

Yep. Mere mortals who can make scientific careers out of pointing out the mistakes of other mere mortals. Any researcher who manages to falsify evolutionary theory can expect to gain tenure at an Ivy League university, fat research grants in perpetuity, and a major place in the history of bioscience. The fact that after 150 year this prized brass ring remains ungrasped strongly indicates that it isn't there to be grasped.

776 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:04:45pm

re: #774 Salamantis

I love Dr. Strangelove!

777 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:05:19pm

In other words, that such a brass ring does not exist.

778 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:06:15pm

But, unlike dogmatic religion, empirical science will never foreclose the possibility.

779 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:07:37pm

re: #775 Salamantis

Yep. Mere mortals who can make scientific careers out of pointing out the mistakes of other mere mortals. Any researcher who manages to falsify evolutionary theory can expect to gain tenure at an Ivy League university, fat research grants in perpetuity, and a major place in the history of bioscience. The fact that after 150 year this prized brass ring remains ungrasped strongly indicates that it isn't there to be grasped.

Well if you want to believer there is no built-in peer pressure to maintain the consensus, that's your right to do so. The fact that there is an ugliness surrounding the whole thing smells of its rotten core....or is is that these pure high minded scientist have just had enough of these lunatics who don't want to play along and they're just not going to take it anymore!

780 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:11:21pm

re: #779 jimc

Well if you want to believer there is no built-in peer pressure to maintain the consensus, that's your right to do so. The fact that there is an ugliness surrounding the whole thing smells of its rotten core....or is is that these pure high minded scientist have just had enough of these lunatics who don't want to play along and they're just not going to take it anymore!

The ugliness that stinks to high Heaven is the dogmatic insistence by fundamentalists that their ancient religious dogmas are forever free of error, regardless of what empirical evidence and the theories logically derivable from it conclusively demonstrate. This is an ugliness that empirical science thankfully does not share.

781 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:12:51pm

I go back to my characterization of why things are the way they are:

Evolutionists are already set that evolution is fact and therefore there is no need to question it and those who question it are most likely not evolutionists and will be dismissed. If you trace the contour and overlay it on to the Global warming debate, it looks much the same...yeah yeah empirical blah blah blah... :-)

782 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:13:44pm

The built in pressure under which religious fundamentalists labor to protect, preserve and defend their dogmtic consensus is no less than the explicit threat of eternal torment for their immortal souls.

783 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:14:30pm

re: #781 jimc

That's because evolution IS fact.

784 Yashmak  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:14:40pm

re: #768 jimc

Crap I really need to rebuke this...


You seem to be confusing empirical science and man. One does not equal the other. Empirical science is something man can try to achieve but inevitably via mistakes or willfulness, man tarnishes the concept with agendas and bias...

Empirical science is a tool man uses. It exists regardless of man's foibles or lack thereof. Its foundations allow for the correction of bias via subsequent experimentation/observation.

785 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:16:48pm

re: #783 Sharmuta

That's because evolution IS fact.

Maybe microevolution, but I'm not convinced of macro evolution, and definitely reject abiogenesis theory that life sprang from nothing...

786 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:17:31pm

I broke -600 Karma! Whoohooo!

787 Yashmak  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:18:40pm

re: #781 jimc

I go back to my characterization of why things are the way they are:

Evolutionists are already set that evolution is fact and therefore there is no need to question it and those who question it are most likely not evolutionists and will be dismissed. If you trace the contour and overlay it on to the Global warming debate, it looks much the same...yeah yeah empirical blah blah blah... :-)

Creationists are already set that creation is a fact (in spite of a complete absence of any science to support this belief), and therefore anyone who trusts in the science of evolution will be dismissed.

Amazing how that can be turned around so easily.

788 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:19:13pm

re: #785 jimc

It is not logical to accept only micro-evolution. How many micro-evolutionary changes accumulate until you've reached a new species?

789 Yashmak  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:20:24pm

re: #785 jimc

Maybe microevolution, but I'm not convinced of macro evolution, and definitely reject abiogenesis theory that life sprang from nothing...

Well, the theory of evolution doesn't attempt to address the origins of life, so that's pretty much irrelevant.

790 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:21:31pm

re: #784 Yashmak

Empirical science is a tool man uses. It exists regardless of man's foibles or lack thereof. Its foundations allow for the correction of bias via subsequent experimentation/observation.

You know I'm just going to stop, this is pointless. You all think because there is this perfect system, almost utopian, yet most people do not believe that even scientist can keep their personal beliefs out of it. And if those scientist have their work reviewed by like minded scientist, who's checking them? Would you trust Democrats to give a fair review of Obama's performance? No, unfortunately, anyone who criticizes evolution is laughed out of the room leaving only approving voices to be left to review anything...that's the rotten part I was referring to...

791 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:22:02pm

re: #781 jimc

I go back to my characterization of why things are the way they are:

Evolutionists are already set that evolution is fact and therefore there is no need to question it and those who question it are most likely not evolutionists and will be dismissed. If you trace the contour and overlay it on to the Global warming debate, it looks much the same...yeah yeah empirical blah blah blah... :-)

You are either ignorant or mendacious on this point, or both. It is precisely such empirical questioning, experimentation and interrogation that has augmented, elaborated and refined evolutionary theory over the past 150 years. And to attempt to impugn evolutionary science, a 150 year old discipline that is supported by ALL of the empiricfal evidence and contrdicted by NONE of it, by invoking AGW, a two-decades-old hypothesis that is currently being refuted by the solar cycle evidence produced by empirical science researchers, is like trying to impugn Einstein by invoking Ron Paul.

Bad science is nevertheless still science; it remains falsifiable and its errors can be and are continually corrected by better science. False religious dogma, on the other hand, does not permit of any correction whatsoever, even when it is demonstrably empirically false.

792 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:22:46pm

re: #788 Sharmuta

It is not logical to accept only micro-evolution. How many micro-evolutionary changes accumulate until you've reached a new species?

Hsa it been proven that micro-evolution leads to macro-evolution? I was just reading an article on this topic and the summary was that there was yet actual proof of this concept, I unfortuantely don't have the link to it here...

793 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:23:22pm

re: #789 Yashmak

Well, the theory of evolution doesn't attempt to address the origins of life, so that's pretty much irrelevant.

He knows this very well -- it's been pointed out to him dozens of times in these threads. But he just keeps coming back with it as if we're starting the discussion over from the beginning.

It's the creationist hamster wheel.

794 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:23:36pm

re: #792 jimc

I thought you were going to stop because in your opinion this is pointless.

795 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:28:11pm

re: #789 Yashmak

Well, the theory of evolution doesn't attempt to address the origins of life, so that's pretty much irrelevant.

That's the beauty of it, doesn't have to explain origins, just another part of the evolution cloud...

796 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:28:53pm

re: #794 Sharmuta

I thought you were going to stop because in your opinion this is pointless.

Yeah I should stop, because my opinion is pointless, here on this topic...

797 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:29:34pm

re: #796 jimc

No- not pointless, just flat out wrong.

798 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:31:32pm

re: #790 jimc

You know I'm just going to stop, this is pointless. You all think because there is this perfect system, almost utopian, yet most people do not believe that even scientist can keep their personal beliefs out of it. And if those scientist have their work reviewed by like minded scientist, who's checking them? Would you trust Democrats to give a fair review of Obama's performance? No, unfortunately, anyone who criticizes evolution is laughed out of the room leaving only approving voices to be left to review anything...that's the rotten part I was referring to...

Empirical science is not perfect, nor is it even in theory perfectable, nor is it ever in theory complete; what it does is to asymptotically approach but never achieve perfection and completeness, as more and more empirical evidence is produced by experimental interrogation and more and better and more comprehensive principles and theories are logically derived from it. Religious dogma, on the other hand, refuses to budge one iota from its initial errors, despite empirical evidence proving them to be errors. That is what is rotten at the very heart of religious dogmatism.

When a million empirical scientists can advance their own careers by revealing and exposing errors in their colleagues' work, the biases of individual scientists are filtered out by their own peers.

799 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:31:35pm

re: #793 Charles

It's the creationist hamster wheel.

[Yeah, I know, those are mice. It's the hamster's wheel, though.]

800 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:34:43pm

re: #792 jimc

Hsa it been proven that micro-evolution leads to macro-evolution? I was just reading an article on this topic and the summary was that there was yet actual proof of this concept, I unfortuantely don't have the link to it here...

All that is necessary for macroevolution to occur is the accumulation of enough microevolutionary genetic differences between species populations so that they are no longer able to interbreed.

801 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:34:55pm

re: #798 Salamantis

Empirical science is not perfect, nor is it even in theory perfectable, nor is it ever in theory complete; what it does is to asymptotically approach but never achieve perfection and completeness, as more and more empirical evidence is produced by experimental interrogation and more and better and more comprehensive principles and theories are logically derived from it. Religious dogma, on the other hand, refuses to budge one iota from its initial errors, despite empirical evidence proving them to be errors. That is what is rotten at the very heart of religious dogmatism.

When a million empirical scientists can advance their own careers by revealing and exposing errors in their colleagues' work, the biases of individual scientists are filtered out by their own peers.

Can you give me any examples of a challenge to evolution that wasn't met with absolute dismissal?

802 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:35:50pm

re: #800 Salamantis

All that is necessary for macroevolution to occur is the accumulation of enough microevolutionary genetic differences between species populations so that they are no longer able to interbreed.

Yes, right I understand the concept, but has it been observed in the natural world? I'm not talking about controlled experiments in a lab either...

803 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:37:17pm

re: #802 jimc

Yes, right I understand the concept, but has it been observed in the natural world? I'm not talking about controlled experiments in a lab either...

Yes, actually:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

804 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:39:07pm

re: #803 Sharmuta

Yes, actually:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Yes, I've read that and there are other possible explanations that of course were never addressed...

805 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:39:28pm

re: #804 jimc

Yes, I've read that and there are other possible explanations that of course were never addressed...

Nonsense!

806 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:40:20pm

re: #795 jimc

That's the beauty of it, doesn't have to explain origins, just another part of the evolution cloud...

Origins of life theory has to do with life first appearing from nonlife; evolutionary theory, otoh, has to do with what happens when species populations possessing high but imperfect copying fidelity are confronted by surrounding environments possessing particular challenges and opportunities. And what happens is random genetic mutation acted upon by nonrandom environmental selection - in other words, evolution.

This distinction has been explained to you eleventy-twelve times before, and still you gratuitously return to it over and over again and again. I would call that bad faith.

807 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:44:44pm

re: #801 jimc

Can you give me any examples of a challenge to evolution that wasn't met with absolute dismissal?

Can you give me an example of an empirically credible and evidence-supported challenge to evolution? No, you can't. Because, despite 150 yearsd of trying, there hasn't yet been one.

Not that there in principle couldn't be (although, considering all the empirical evidence in favor of evolution, and the fact that not a single shred of empirical evidence contradicts it, the chances of that happening by now are vanishingly unlikely); it just hasn't happened yet.

808 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:46:00pm

re: #804 jimc

Yes, I've read that and there are other possible explanations that of course were never addressed...

Name one. And leave GodDidIt out.

809 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:52:45pm

re: #804 jimc

Yes, I've read that and there are other possible explanations that of course were never addressed...

More BS. Name one other "possible explanation."

You can't do that, and you know it.

810 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:56:44pm

re: #808 Salamantis

Name one. And leave GodDidIt out.

Following the war, scientists returned to Pod Mrčaru and found that the lizards currently occupying Pod Mrčaru differ greatly from those on Pod Kopište. While mitochondrial DNA analyses have verified that P. sicula currently on Pod Mrčaru are genetically indistinguishable from the Pod Kopište source population,[5] the new Pod Mrčaru population of P. sicula was described, in August 2007, as having a larger average size, shorter hind limbs, lower maximal sprint speed and altered response to simulated predatory attacks compared to the original Pod Kopište population.[11] These population changes in morphology and behavior were attributed to "relaxed predation intensity" and greater protection from vegetation on Pod Mrčaru.[11]

The genetic information was already present in the lizard population...

811 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:57:40pm

re: #809 Charles

More BS. Name one other "possible explanation."

You can't do that, and you know it.

See

812 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 12:59:49pm

Wow I seem to have done the impossible...although I still got downdinged :-)

813 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:02:17pm

re: #810 jimc

What is your source on that? And how do you explain the cecal valves these lizards had previously lacked?

814 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:02:21pm

re: #810 jimc

The genetic information was already present in the lizard population...

And how would that genetic information already be present, when the selecting environment in which it could have evolved was not previously around to select for it?

Oh, that's right; GodDidIt.

BZZZT! Previously excluded answer!

815 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:04:08pm
Pod Mrcaru, for example, had an abundance of plants for the primarily insect-eating lizards to munch on. Physically, however, the lizards were not built to digest a vegetarian diet.

Researchers found that the lizards developed cecal valves—muscles between the large and small intestine—that slowed down food digestion in fermenting chambers, which allowed their bodies to process the vegetation's cellulose into volatile fatty acids.

[Link: news.nationalgeographic.com...]

816 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:04:12pm

re: #813 Sharmuta

What is your source on that? And how do you explain the cecal valves these lizards had previously lacked?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

817 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:06:06pm

re: #816 jimc

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

That link supports Sharmuta's contention, and not yours.

818 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:06:32pm

re: #816 jimc

Pretty misleading of you to leave out the key finding:

The most surprising difference found between the two populations was the discovery, in the Pod Mrčaru lizards, of cecal valves, which slow down food passage and provide fermenting chambers, allowing commensal microorganisms to convert cellulose to nutrients digestible by the lizards. Additionally, the researchers discovered that nematodes were common in the guts of Pod Mrčaru lizards, but absent from Pod Kopište P. sicula, which do not have cecal valves. The cecal valves, which occur in less than 1 percent of all known species of scaled reptiles, have been described as an "evolutionary novelty, a brand new feature not present in the ancestral population and newly evolved in these lizards"

Explain the cecal valves, jimc.

819 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:07:42pm

re: #817 Salamantis

That link supports Sharmuta's contention, and not yours.

While mitochondrial DNA analyses have verified that P. sicula currently on Pod Mrčaru are genetically indistinguishable from the Pod Kopište source population



Really? Are you sure? Cause this really sounds like it supports what I just stated...

820 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:08:24pm

re: #818 Sharmuta

Pretty misleading of you to leave out the key finding:

Explain the cecal valves, jimc.

Please define to me genetically indistinguishable....and then answer your own question.

821 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:15:03pm

re: #820 jimc

You were the one who wanted an example of evolution in nature and not the lab, so don't get pissy with me because that example was provided. Clearly, you have no answer for this, otherwise you would have provided it instead of posting snotty dismissals of the evidence you asked for in the first place.

822 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:15:08pm

This is what creationists do -- they really seem to enjoy it when they succeed in getting rational people to run around in the hamster wheel.

823 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:15:19pm

re: #819 jimc


Really? Are you sure? Cause this really sounds like it supports what I just stated...

You apparently don't know the difference between mitochondrial and nuclear DNA, which contains the species genome. The organism's configurational and behavioral genetic traits are encoded in the genome found in the nuclear DNA; all that the mitochondrial DNA encodes for is the mitochondria, just like chloroplastic DNA in plants only encode for chloroplasts:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

In fact, the fact that the mitochondrial DNA match proves that the two configurationally different lizards evolutionarily diverged from a single common ancestor, proving Sharmuta's point, and falsifying yours.

824 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:15:38pm

re: #822 Charles

This is what creationists do -- they really seem to enjoy it when they succeed in getting rational people to run around in the hamster wheel.

Yeah- but I was feeling bored, so I thought I'd play.

825 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:16:04pm

Let me help you all out here....what do you call something that is genetically indistinguishable from something else only differs in physical ways? Sort of like wiener dogs are different than sheep dogs? Same species right? hmmmm

826 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:17:42pm

re: #823 Salamantis

You apparently don't know the difference between mitochondrial and nuclear DNA, which contains the species genome. The organism's configurational and behavioral genetic traits are encoded in the genome found in the nuclear DNA; all that the mitochondrial DNA encodes for is the mitochondria, just like chloroplastic DNA in plants only encode for chloroplasts:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

In fact, the fact that the mitochondrial DNA match proves that the two configurationally different lizards evolutionarily diverged from a single common ancestor, proving Sharmuta's point, and falsifying yours.

So they are verified as two separate species? Right, that's what you're saying?

827 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:19:21pm

re: #825 jimc

Let me help you all out here....what do you call something that is genetically indistinguishable from something else only differs in physical ways? Sort of like wiener dogs are different than sheep dogs? Same species right? hmmmm

The microevolutionary genetic differences between breeds in a species are smaller than those between different yet closely related species, such as dogs and foxes, so they can still interbreed, but those differences are still there, and are detectable via genome sequencing.

828 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:20:03pm

What we have here is an example of rapid microevolution but headlines were rather catchy at the time, given the overloaded nature of the term "evolution" but I would expect anything less from this crowd...

829 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:21:04pm

re: #827 Salamantis

The microevolutionary genetic differences between breeds in a species are smaller than those between different yet closely related species, such as dogs and foxes, so they can still interbreed, but those differences are still there, and are detectable via genome sequencing.

So you're saying these lizards are in fact he same species? And the lizard example is an example of microevolution, no?

830 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:21:28pm

Subspecies

Though I'm sure it's a waste of my time......

831 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:22:38pm

re: #826 jimc

So they are verified as two separate species? Right, that's what you're saying?

NOW they are; a century ago, only one of them existed. A population of that one species was geographically isolated in a much differently selecting environment, and subsequently evolutionarily diverged in a manner more accommodating to its new surroundings - just like evolution predicts would happen.

832 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:22:47pm

re: #830 Sharmuta

Subspecies

Though I'm sure it's a waste of my time......

Indeed, it's a waste of time:

It is not possible to understand the concept of a subspecies without first grasping what a species is.

jimc doesn't have the slightest clue. Oh well.

833 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:23:30pm

re: #830 Sharmuta

Subspecies

Though I'm sure it's a waste of my time......

Ahh yes, when in doubt create a new term to cover your rear...ta da subspecies... my question still hasn't been answered, are these lizards actually a different species from the source lizards?

834 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:25:09pm

re: #831 Salamantis

NOW they are; a century ago, only one of them existed. A population of that one species was geographically isolated in a much differently selecting environment, and subsequently evolutionarily diverged in a manner more accommodating to its new surroundings - just like evolution predicts would happen.

Please show me your evidence that proves these are two separate species, the source and the "evolved" lizards that is...

835 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:26:16pm

You guys wanted me to show you just one possible explanation, I gave you one, they are the same species....and no one has refuted that claim with any facts...

836 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:26:26pm

re: #829 jimc

So you're saying these lizards are in fact he same species? And the lizard example is an example of microevolution, no?

Not when major configurational differences between them such as the presence or absence of cecal valves exist. They might be able to produce offspring together, but my guess would be that the offspring would be sterile like mules (produced by mating horses and donkeys).

837 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:28:23pm

You still can't explain the cecal valves.

838 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:29:07pm

re: #834 jimc

Please show me your evidence that proves these are two separate species, the source and the "evolved" lizards that is...

re: #835 jimc

You guys wanted me to show you just one possible explanation, I gave you one, they are the same species....and no one has refuted that claim with any facts...

The proof is that one of them possesses a major physiological configuration - cecal calves - that the other one entirely lacks. As has already been explained to you umpteen times.

839 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:30:14pm

re: #833 jimc

Ahh yes, when in doubt create a new term to cover your rear...ta da subspecies... my question still hasn't been answered, are these lizards actually a different species from the source lizards?

See my #831

840 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:30:24pm

re: #836 Salamantis

Not when major configurational differences between them such as the presence or absence of cecal valves exist.

Oh, I didn't know species were defined by physical traits...

but my guess

Exactly, your guess....or am I to take that as proof?

I just uncovered another way evolutionist manipulate the game, by making the definition of species squishy enough to allow such ambiguity...

841 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:31:10pm

re: #838 Salamantis

The proof is that one of them possesses a major physiological configuration - cecal calves - that the other one entirely lacks. As has already been explained to you umpteen times.


So are willing to state as a fact that this difference defines a species?

842 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:33:25pm

re: #840 jimc

Oh, I didn't know species were defined by physical traits...

You don't know what a species is, so you can't understand this evolutionary change.

843 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:34:56pm

re: #837 Sharmuta

You still can't explain the cecal valves.

Sure I can, it is a genetic variation within the species, I even called it microevolution. Just like the myriad of physical differences within most species. But it is not an example of macroevolution...

844 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:35:38pm

re: #842 Sharmuta

You don't know what a species is, so you can't understand this evolutionary change.

I know what a species is...but I see we've coem to the part where now you just insult...

845 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:40:27pm

re: #840 jimc

Oh, I didn't know species were defined by physical traits...

The physical traits differences are there precisely because they are differentially encoded by variant genomes.

Exactly, your guess....or am I to take that as proof?

Nope. Just try to interbreed the two, and see if they can produce offspring, and if those offspring, if produced, are fertile. That's the way empirical science does it. Unlike dogmatic religion, which believes as it believes, regardless of the testimony of the empirical world.

I just uncovered another way evolutionist manipulate the game, by making the definition of species squishy enough to allow such ambiguity...

You are trapped in your Genesis Literalist box of absolutely distinct and God-created kinds, and cannot see out of that box to apprehend that some species are more closely related than others, and that this also applies to subspecies which are not yet distinct species, but are on their evolutionary way there.

846 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:45:10pm

re: #841 jimc

So are willing to state as a fact that this difference defines a species?

If it's not a species, it's well on its evolutionary way there. And as I said before, this can be empirically checked, via attempting to interbreed them and checking to ascertain whether or not they can produce fertile offspring.

847 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:48:03pm

re: #843 jimc

Sure I can, it is a genetic variation within the species, I even called it microevolution. Just like the myriad of physical differences within most species. But it is not an example of macroevolution...

Until you can empirically demonstrate that these two different lizard populations can interbreed and produce fertile offspring, you cannot maintain the position that they remain subspecies of the same species.

848 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:50:03pm

re: #846 Salamantis

If it's not a species, it's well on its evolutionary way there. And as I said before, this can be empirically checked, via attempting to interbreed them and checking to ascertain whether or not they can produce fertile offspring.

They are not two separate species otherwise someone would have produced a link by now, so I take it none of you are willing to admit to being wrong, which doesn't surprise me and is typical of such debates. I must have dropped nearly a 100 points in Karma while being correct. ...

849 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:51:21pm

re: #847 Salamantis

Until you can empirically demonstrate that these two different lizard populations can interbreed and produce fertile offspring, you cannot maintain the position that they remain subspecies of the same species.

Oh I see how it is now, I have to go do my own experiments...I thought empirical science would have documented this by now?

No I think you're a coward for not admitting you're wrong or at least unable to refute my claim...

850 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:52:35pm

Ignorant.

851 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:56:18pm

re: #850 Sharmuta

Ignorant.


More insults...

852 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:58:01pm

re: #843 jimc

Sure I can, it is a genetic variation within the species, I even called it microevolution. Just like the myriad of physical differences within most species. But it is not an example of macroevolution...

There are countless examples of macroevolution. Shared artifactual retroviral DNA sequences conclusively demonstrate that humans and great apes evolutionarily diverged from ancient common hominid ancestors, just as other species did. The empirical evidence for this fact is contained within the genomes found within every cell of every organism on this planet. But then, you feel for your pet creationist dogma just like the jurors felt towards OJ; they weren't there to see the murder happen, they don't accept DNA evidence, and even if they HAD been there to see it happen, they most probably would have found a way to disbelieve their lying eyes, because they identified with him, and loved him so much. As I said before, religious fundamentalism is all about feelings, and not a bit about thinking.

853 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 1:59:30pm

re: #848 jimc

They are not two separate species otherwise someone would have produced a link by now, so I take it none of you are willing to admit to being wrong, which doesn't surprise me and is typical of such debates. I must have dropped nearly a 100 points in Karma while being correct. ...

Once again you are fallaciously confusing an absence of evidence with evidence of absence.

854 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:00:54pm

re: #851 jimc

More insults...

Statement of fact.

855 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:02:50pm

re: #852 Salamantis

There are countless examples of macroevolution. Shared artifactual retroviral DNA sequences conclusively demonstrate that humans and great apes evolutionarily diverged from ancient common hominid ancestors, just as other species did. The empirical evidence for this fact is contained within the genomes found within every cell of every organism on this planet. But then, you feel for your pet creationist dogma just like the jurors felt towards OJ; they weren't there to see the murder happen, they don't accept DNA evidence, and even if they HAD been there to see it happen, they most probably would have found a way to disbelieve their lying eyes, because they identified with him, and loved him so much. As I said before, religious fundamentalism is all about feelings, and not a bit about thinking.

Oooh deflection, ... good we're moving along quite nicely now. Insults and deflection...

The challenge and I quotere: #808 Salamantis

Name one. And leave GodDidIt out.

You asked, I answered you were found wanting...and none of you has the fortitude to admit failure....

856 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:04:13pm

re: #854 Sharmuta

Statement of fact.

No substance, at least Sal is trying...

857 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:05:05pm

re: #856 jimc

No substance, at least Sal is trying...

Ridiculous- I was the one who brought the Italian Lizards into this discussion, and you still can't explain the cecal valves.

858 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:05:39pm

re: #849 jimc

Oh I see how it is now, I have to go do my own experiments...I thought empirical science would have documented this by now?

No I think you're a coward for not admitting you're wrong or at least unable to refute my claim...

The burden of proof is on the person who insists something that is contrary to already-produced empirical evidence. And the already-produced empirical evidence is the major configurational difference of the presence vs. the absence of cecal valves. Which places the burden of proof squarely on you.

I'd like to see the experiment done; it would tell us precisely how far these populations have evolutionarily diverged. But the presence vs. the absence of cecal valves is no insignificant little difference to be cavalierly dismissed just because it inconveniences your dogmatic beliefs.

859 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:09:30pm

re: #858 Salamantis

The burden of proof is on the person who insists something that is contrary to already-produced empirical evidence. And the already-produced empirical evidence is the major configurational difference of the presence vs. the absence of cecal valves. Which places the burden of proof squarely on you.

I'd like to see the experiment done; it would tell us precisely how far these populations have evolutionarily diverged. But the presence vs. the absence of cecal valves is no insignificant little difference to be cavalierly dismissed just because it inconveniences your dogmatic beliefs.

You're dangerously close to being purposefully dishonest. There is no empirical evidence that you can find to state that these two lizards are in fact two species. The issue at hand was that the lziard example was of macroevolution, you and charles pointedly dared me to refute the claim, I did, and yo haven't been able to provide anything that demonstrates anything other than microevolution which wasn't the question anyway. But I will give you credit for at least desiring such test to be done...

860 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:10:50pm

re: #857 Sharmuta

Ridiculous- I was the one who brought the Italian Lizards into this discussion, and you still can't explain the cecal valves.

Yes I did, it is called microevolution but that wasn't the question....

861 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:12:17pm

re: #855 jimc

Oooh deflection, ... good we're moving along quite nicely now. Insults and deflection...

The challenge and I quote
re: #808 Salamantis

Name one. And leave GodDidIt out.

You asked, I answered you were found wanting...and none of you has the fortitude to admit failure....

You have only made a bald assertion, unsupported by any empirical evidence whatsoever, that

re: #810 jimc

The genetic information was already present in the lizard population...


e>

and my answer to it remains unreplied to:

re: #814 Salamantis

And how would that genetic information already be present, when the selecting environment in which it could have evolved was not previously around to select for it?

Oh, that's right; GodDidIt.

BZZZT! Previously excluded answer!

862 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:17:25pm

re: #860 jimc

Yes I did, it is called microevolution but that wasn't the question....

Right. The question was where had evolutionary changes occurred in nature, and that was answered. Now you're just moving the goalpost.

863 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:19:07pm

re: #859 jimc

You're dangerously close to being purposefully dishonest. There is no empirical evidence that you can find to state that these two lizards are in fact two species. The issue at hand was that the lziard example was of macroevolution, you and charles pointedly dared me to refute the claim, I did, and yo haven't been able to provide anything that demonstrates anything other than microevolution which wasn't the question anyway. But I will give you credit for at least desiring such test to be done...

The presence vs. the absence of cecal valves - a major configurational difference - IS the empirical evidence.

More empirical evidence could be provided by means of the interbreeding attempt I suggest, but SOME empirical evidence for the contention that major evolution has occured has ALREADY been provided - whether you fucking like it or not. Whether it is major enough yet to constitute macroevolution is not something that can be ascertained in the absence of an interbreeding trial, but if it's not YET macroevolution, it's well on its evolutionary way there.

864 Sharmuta  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:31:28pm

re: #863 Salamantis

There's more than just the cecal valves too:

Along with the ability to digest plants came the ability to bite harder, powered by a head that had grown longer and wider.

And this:

the new Pod Mrčaru population of P. sicula was described, in August 2007, as having a larger average size, shorter hind limbs, lower maximal sprint speed and altered response to simulated predatory attacks compared to the original Pod Kopište population.

I would think the researchers would indeed attempt a cross breeding between the two populations. Time will tell if the changes are enough to classify them as separate species.

865 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:47:03pm

re: #862 Sharmuta

Right. The question was where had evolutionary changes occurred in nature, and that was answered. Now you're just moving the goalpost.

You're now lying,

re: #800 Salamantis

All that is necessary for macroevolution to occur is the accumulation of enough microevolutionary genetic differences between species populations so that they are no longer able to interbreed.

JimC:

Yes, right I understand the concept, but has it been observed in the natural world? I'm not talking about controlled experiments in a lab either...
866 jimc  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:48:33pm

re: #863 Salamantis
Right, this case has not be shown to prove macroevolution...thanks for clearing that up for us...

867 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 2:58:09pm

re: #866 jimc

Right, this case has not be shown to prove macroevolution...thanks for clearing that up for us...

Countless other cases HAVE been shown, via shared artifactual retroviral DNA empirical evidence, to prove macroevolution, as I have previously posted. Including between humans and great apes:

re: #852 Salamantis

There are countless examples of macroevolution. Shared artifactual retroviral DNA sequences conclusively demonstrate that humans and great apes evolutionarily diverged from ancient common hominid ancestors, just as other species did. The empirical evidence for this fact is contained within the genomes found within every cell of every organism on this planet. But then, you feel for your pet creationist dogma just like the jurors felt towards OJ; they weren't there to see the murder happen, they don't accept DNA evidence, and even if they HAD been there to see it happen, they most probably would have found a way to disbelieve their lying eyes, because they identified with him, and loved him so much. As I said before, religious fundamentalism is all about feelings, and not a bit about thinking.

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

All of these cases remain utterly unaddressed by you, much less unrefuted. Or would you say unrebuked...;~)

868 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 3:08:19pm

To logically state the case in the form of a Aristoteliam syllogism:

1) Macroevolution is defined as the divergent evolution of a single species into two distinct populations that can no longer interbreed and produce fertile offspring.

2) There are many different species that cannot interbreed, hence there are definitionally macroevolutionary differences between them.

3) These macroevolutionarily different species nevertheless evolutionarily diverged from ancient common ancestors, as the artifactual retroviral empirical evidence within their own genomes conclusively proves.

Therefore:

4) Beyond a rational or empirical doubt, macroevolution happens.

QED.

869 JimC  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 3:14:14pm

re: #867 Salamantis

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

All of these cases remain utterly unaddressed by you, much less unrefuted. Or would you say unrebuked...;~)

Yes, yes I know we already went thru this and I didn't agree that this is proof positive as there could have been, no matter how unlikely, simultaneous infection of the retro-virus.

{CURSING ABOUT ODDS STARTS HERE}.


There are many different species that cannot interbreed, hence there are definitionally macroevolutionary differences between them.

Though many try...poor sheep...

870 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 3:35:26pm

re: #869 JimC

Yes, yes I know we already went thru this and I didn't agree that this is proof positive as there could have been, no matter how unlikely, simultaneous infection of the retro-virus.

{CURSING ABOUT ODDS STARTS HERE}.

How unlikely? That in the absence of common ancestry, retroviruses would infect different and environmentally species thousands of separate times, at the exact same time in humans and great apes (calculable by their possessing identical coefficients of genetic degradation), and inserting themselves into precisely identical sites in 3 billion base pair genomes, all of which artifactual retroviral DNA sequences are dateable by coefficients of genetic degradation to ancient points in time from which no fossils of either humans nor great apes have been discovered? Which also contain different artifactual retroviral DNA sequences, all dateable by their coefficients of genetic degradation to more recent points in time from which fossils of both humans and great apes have been discovered? And all this multiplied by the millions of distinct yet genetically related species inhabiting this planet that also share identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences?

So vanishingly unlikely that the difference between it and impossible is so microscopic and miniscule as to be too tiny to calculate.

Once again, you conclusively prove that dogmatic religious fundamentalism renders you impervious and impermeable to both deductive logic and empirical evidence.

871 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 3:37:11pm

environmentally distinct species pimf

Meaning that they inhabited different ecologies, and in many cases altogether different geographies.

872 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 25, 2009 3:39:26pm

re: #871 Salamantis

environmentally distinct species pimf

Meaning that they inhabited different ecologies, and in many cases altogether different geographies.

As humans and great apes have. But as their common ancestors, being single species, did not.

873 jimc  Fri, Mar 27, 2009 7:17:29am

One more comment on the Lizard article. This article in its distribution to many outlets combined with the, in my opinion, deliberate conflation of macro-evolution and micro-evolution, was meant to convince an uninformed public that evolution, more specifically speciation, was confirmed. I find it no small coincidence that the article does not mention anything about a new "species" but rather makes the user come to that (false) conclusion in their own mind. It is this type of propaganda and dishonesty that drives me to conclude that the purity of the science, that supposedly is upheld by evolutionist, has been compromised and should be met with strong skepticism....all the chest beating in the world will not make me trust implicitly what these people claim...


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