Snowe: 'Ideological Purity Is Not the Ticket Back'

Snowe: ‘Ideological Purity Is Not the Ticket Back’

PoliticsApril 2009 • Views: 6,046

Republican Senator Olympia Snowe follows Jon Huntsman Jr. in an attempt to stage an intervention on the GOP: We Didn’t Have to Lose Arlen Specter.

There is no plausible scenario under which Republicans can grow into a majority while shrinking our ideological confines and continuing to retract into a regional party. Ideological purity is not the ticket back to the promised land of governing majorities — indeed, it was when we began to emphasize social issues to the detriment of some of our basic tenets as a party that we encountered an electoral backlash.

It is for this reason that we should heed the words of President Ronald Reagan, who urged, “We should emphasize the things that unite us and make these the only ‘litmus test’ of what constitutes a Republican: our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty.” He continued, “As to the other issues that draw on the deep springs of morality and emotion, let us decide that we can disagree among ourselves as Republicans and tolerate the disagreement.”

I couldn’t agree more. We can’t continue to fold our philosophical tent into an umbrella under which only a select few are worthy to stand. Rather, we should view an expansion of diversity within the party as a triumph that will broaden our appeal. That is the political road map we must follow to victory.

(Hat tip: Salamantis.)

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539 comments

goddessoftheclassroom Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:19:00pm

Given that she was one of three Republicans who voted for the budget, she's not in the best place to dictate to the party.

coquimbojoe Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:19:20pm

Please follow Spectre.

Emerald Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:19:52pm

I agree in theory, but the truth is Specter left because he was going to lose the primary due to his fiscal voting. In his case, it wasn't anything to do with ideology. He's trying to save his political career.

Cathypop Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:20:02pm

re: #2 coquimbojoe

Please follow Spectre.

I agree

albusteve Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:20:32pm

this person can kiss my conservative ass

OldLineTexan Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:20:40pm

But neither is vote whoring.

Wendya Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:20:44pm

Acting like Snowe isn't the ticket back either. If she wants to stick her finger in the wind and vote according to national polls, that's her state's problem. I certainly don't want any more like her in office.

solomonpanting Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:21:01pm

Speaking of the budget:

Democrats in Congress capped President Barack Obama's 100th day in office by advancing a $3.4 trillion federal budget for next year — a third of it borrowed — that prevents Republicans from blocking his proposed trillion-dollar expansion of government-provided health care over the next decade.

I'm going to need some of that health care as this makes me ill.

Nevergiveup Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:21:46pm

I am not going to get to bent out of shape over all this just yet. We got our buts wiped in the last election and as usual when something like that happens, there is gonna be some bad feelings, blood letting, and finger pointing. When tempers cool, it would be a better time to discuss all this. I'd say give it another 6 months. As for Specter, good riddance in my opinion. If nothing else he is an ingrate.

Wendya Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:22:18pm

re: #8 solomonpanting

Speaking of the budget:

I'm going to need some of that health care as this makes me ill.

Let's see... Republicans are prevented from blocking his health care proposals. It must be their fault for not offering up an alternative, right guys?

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:22:46pm

it was when we began to emphasize social issues to the detriment of some of our basic tenets as a party that we encountered an electoral backlash.

I agree. I think we should focus on fiscal issues and restricting government power (like the Balanced Budget Amendment), but she's not the advocate for that position considering her TARP vote.

screaming_eagle Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:22:56pm

Why is it the Reps who don't stand for fiscal responsiblty are the first ones to blame the partys problems entirely on social issues ?

jorline Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:23:03pm

re: #1 goddessoftheclassroom

Given that she was one of three Republicans who voted for the budget, she's not in the best place to dictate to the party.

I wish I had more dings to give goddess.

sleepyone Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:23:16pm

Ugh. Olympia Snowe. She's my senator and frankly she's part of the problem with the Republican party.

Having said that, there is no way in hell anyone even a smidgen more conservative than her would get elected in this damn state.

albusteve Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:23:24pm

the US Senate is a den of thieves and a black hole of principle....they are the most elite therefore the they are the ones I hate the most....this has been going on for 200 fucking years and we never learn...this person is an amoral pig, not worthy of even knowing who I am or what I believe...political effluvial

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:23:33pm

Snowe fails her own GOP litmus test

You can't make this stuff up!

Wendya Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:23:48pm

re: #12 screaming_eagle

Why is it the Reps who don't stand for fiscal responsiblty are the first ones to blame the partys problems entirely on social issues ?

Amazing how that happens, eh?

Everyone loves a bogeyman.

jorline Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:24:01pm

re: #11 Sharmuta

I agree. I think we should focus on fiscal issues and restricting government power (like the Balanced Budget Amendment), but she's not the advocate for that position considering her TARP vote.

amen

Gus Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:24:34pm

We can attack the messenger and there are plenty of reasons for it. However, she is correct in this case.

Shug Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:24:44pm

I wonder if she read this before she approved it, unlike the porkulus Bill.

Still, some of the points are valid

it was when we began to emphasize social issues to the detriment of some of our basic tenets as a party that we encountered an electoral backlash.

True
and having crooks like Tom Delay didn't help.
Perverts like Larry Craig and Mark Foley didn't help.
RINOS like Arlen Specter and Olympia Snow Didn't help
Creationists and Religious zealots didn't help.

The GOP has a great many problems, including the fact that Olympia Snow votes for the Porkulus bill without reading it

Joe Bonforte Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:24:46pm

Snowe herself does not exemplify the priniciples she lists. She caves on invasion of the federal government into personal liberty at the drop of a hat.

Listening to someone who is not loyal to conservative principles pontificate on how others ought to hew to principles is pretty silly. Republicans have won when they advocated for their principle honestly and vigorously, in 1980 and 1994. If we did what Snowe wanted, Republicans would never, ever do that again. And they would continue to be socialism-lite as they have been for the past few years.

SixDegrees Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:25:02pm

re: #8 solomonpanting

Speaking of the budget:

Democrats in Congress capped President Barack Obama's 100th day in office by advancing a $3.4 trillion federal budget for next year — a third of it borrowed — that prevents Republicans from blocking his proposed trillion-dollar expansion of government-provided health care over the next decade.

I'm going to need some of that health care as this makes me ill.

Spector voted against it. So did three other Democrats.

The Republicans need allies. If they don't find some, they will simply be irrelevant.

itellu3times Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:25:15pm

Snow, ... purity, ... wot?

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:25:20pm

It is for this reason that we should heed the words of President Ronald Reagan, who urged, “We should emphasize the things that unite us and make these the only ‘litmus test’ of what constitutes a Republican: our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty.”

I agree with Ronald Reagan 100%

Soona' Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:25:27pm

re: #2 coquimbojoe

Please follow Spectre.

And follow him quickly.

sleepyone Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:25:33pm

re: #21 Joe Bonforte

Snowe herself does not exemplify the priniciples she lists. She caves on invasion of the federal government into personal liberty at the drop of a hat.

Listening to someone who is not loyal to conservative principles pontificate on how others ought to hew to principles is pretty silly. Republicans have won when they advocated for their principle honestly and vigorously, in 1980 and 1994. If we did what Snowe wanted, Republicans would never, ever do that again. And they would continue to be socialism-lite as they have been for the past few years.

Very well said.

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:25:55pm

re: #19 Gus 802

We can attack the messenger and there are plenty of reasons for it. However, she is correct in this case.

It would just be better if it didn't reek of hypocrisy.

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:26:01pm

If you compromise your principles just to "win," what have you "won" exactly?

Shug Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:26:27pm

Don't eat the Yellow Snowe

agarrett Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:26:32pm

Now, hold on. One of those litmus tests she quotes approvingly is, "our belief in restraining government spending." But his vote in favor of the stimulus package appears to have been the final straw for the Pennsylvania GOP. So fiscal restraint should be a litmus test, but it should be ignored when a politician violates it? I don't quite follow.

And that's the other thing. This isn't a case of GOP leaders kicking Specter out for some lack of right-wing extreme views. He changed parties because he doesn't think enough actual GOP voters will vote for him in the primary. If he can't win the votes, it doesn't matter which party he's in.

albusteve Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:26:44pm

I am a hard working, patriotic political conservative...I make this country work and I make it great....she is a political whore and beneath my contempt like the rest of them...come to Ft Willow senator and I'll show you how it gets done....an out of touch elitist that can tell me nothing about life

DEZes Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:26:56pm

re: #28 thebigolddog

If you compromise your principles just to "win," what have you "won" exactly?

Two more years on the tax payers teets.

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:27:41pm

re: #24 Sharmuta

Problem is, Snowe's own record shows she does not and therein lies the problem.

Nevergiveup Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:27:50pm

Meeting with reporters in Germany, Holder also signaled the Obama administration might cooperate with a Spanish investigation of former Bush administration officials over the treatment of terror suspects.

[Link: www.navytimes.com...]

Is this asshole for real?

simonml Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:28:13pm

It is for this reason that we should heed the words of President Ronald Reagan, who urged, “We should emphasize the things that unite us and make these the only ‘litmus test’ of what constitutes a Republican: our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty.”

This is why I am a Republican. Too bad we haven't had a real Republican in office since Pres. Reagan.

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:28:19pm

re: #21 Joe Bonforte

Snowe herself does not exemplify the priniciples she lists. She caves on invasion of the federal government into personal liberty at the drop of a hat.

Listening to someone who is not loyal to conservative principles pontificate on how others ought to hew to principles is pretty silly. Republicans have won when they advocated for their principle honestly and vigorously, in 1980 and 1994. If we did what Snowe wanted, Republicans would never, ever do that again. And they would continue to be socialism-lite as they have been for the past few years.

The words of a wise conservative come to mind:

It is in the area of spending that the Republican Party's performance, in its seven years of power, has been most disappointing.

-Barry Goldwater

It's not the past few years in the slightest. Socialist republicans have been around for decades.

Gus Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:28:26pm

re: #27 Sharmuta

It would just be better if it didn't reek of hypocrisy.

Yeah. I don't know what I think anymore but I'm not giving any more money to the GOP. Snowe is a problem however the bigger problem is people like Joanne Voorhees, Ralph Reed and the rest of that ilk.

Zimriel Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:28:29pm

The National Review Online says that this is typical your look-at-me-I'm-not-like-those-other-Republicans Snowe-job. From Ponnuru:

If free trade were a litmus test, Specter would have been booted out long ago—Max Baucus is a better free trader than he is (based on the Cato Institute's vote scores). And while I yield to very few people in the strength of my support for free trade, it isn't an issue that has made the GOP strong. In 2006, national-security issues hurt Republicans badly; in 2008, economic ones did. It takes a certain single-mindedness to conclude that social issues are therefore the problem.
...
Abortion, marriage, and the courts were much bigger issues in 2002 and 2004 than in 2006 and 2008. Like Davis, she says she wants Republicans to concentrate on restraining government spending. Apart from everything else that might be said about this prescription, didn't Snowe just vote for the stimulus bill a few weeks ago?

Social issues arguably turn off urban libertarian sophisticates in California and Chicago, but their votes don't matter in those states anyway. Elections are decided on non-cultural issues in divided states like Ohio.

And yeah, what I said in the thread before about Collins goes for Snowe as well. Neither of them care about fiscal responsibility. They care about remaining members of the political class - oh, excuse me, "continuing to serve the American people".

Soona' Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:28:59pm

re: #22 SixDegrees

Spector voted against it. So did three other Democrats.

The Republicans need allies. If they don't find some, they will simply be irrelevant.

As far as this congress is now concerned, they already are.

LGoPs Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:29:13pm

It is for this reason that we should heed the words of President Ronald Reagan, who urged, “We should emphasize the things that unite us and make these the only ‘litmus test’ of what constitutes a Republican: our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty.” He continued, “As to the other issues that draw on the deep springs of morality and emotion, let us decide that we can disagree among ourselves as Republicans and tolerate the disagreement.”
I couldn’t agree more. We can’t continue to fold our philosophical tent into an umbrella under which only a select few are worthy to stand.

Sage advice from Reagan. And Snowe seems to like it. How about starting with agreeing among Republicans that the abomination that is the Stimulus Bill would be something we should stand against. And even if we can't stop it, make the Democrats own it, like they did in the House.
That would be a nice start Senator Snowe.

sleepyone Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:29:21pm

I write emails to Snowe and Collins every now and then regarding issues I'm concerned about. I'm sure I'm on their "kook" list just for voicing an opinion since every letter I get in return is pretty much a rehash of the same thing with the particulars changed.

Russkilitlover Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:29:24pm

re: #16 thebigolddog

Snowe fails her own GOP litmus test

the Porkulus Three provided the key votes to approve almost an additional trillion dollars in expanded government spending. Not only did the three of them do that, but they stabbed their GOP colleagues in the back — including the moderates in the House who opposed the bill unanimously — when they could have forced the Democrats to craft a better bill that actually stimulated something other than key Democratic constituencies.

Snowe can kiss my ass.

SixDegrees Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:29:44pm

re: #2 coquimbojoe

Please follow Spectre.

As I said earlier today on another topic, you need to separate the person from their ideas. In this case, Snowe is mainly correct in her analysis of the GOP's problems; telling her "Don't let it hit you on the way out" supports her point, and is an exhortation to further reduce the party's membership - not a winning strategy. Snowe may not fit the Conservative mold as snugly as some would like, but in this case she's on target.

If it makes you feel any better, I suspect she is considering following Spector over the the Democratic side of the aisle, a move that will further entrench the Democrats in power over the entire government.

Right Brain Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:29:49pm

My theory is that the Democrats who could not get their party to maintain the culture in which they were raised became Republican due to a belief, somewhat proven, that the Republicans would maintain it.

Odd that the party whose charter was little or no government, and responsible spending, became associated with cultural prohibitions that were done via government.

How did this happen? America is going into staggering debt because the people who would normally prevent this instead tried to prevent gay marriage, or pregnancy termination, and other dead issues.

Is there a way back? Not for another generation, Bush did to the Republican party what Carter did to the Democratic party.

KingKenrod Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:29:50pm

I like Snowe's argument but she's a terrible messenger.

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:30:01pm

I'm still quite ok with losing him.

It had nothing to do with social conservatism. The P.O.S. voted for the "stimulus." Let him rot on the left.

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:30:14pm

re: #33 thebigolddog

Problem is, Snowe's own record shows she does not and therein lies the problem.

I'm not going to disregard the words of Reagan because they were repeated by a less than honorable republican.

Zimriel Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:30:37pm

re: #24 Sharmuta

I agree with Ronald Reagan 100%

I don't, when his corpse is exhumed by a creature like Collins and forced to say words in a context he would never have intended.

doppelganglander Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:30:41pm

it was when we began to emphasize social issues to the detriment of some of our basic tenets as a party that we encountered an electoral backlash.

No, Olympia, it was when you started spending like ballers and cuddling illegal immigrants that you pissed me off.

ArmyWife Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:31:11pm

re: #12 screaming_eagle

Here, here!

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:31:54pm

Folks, I exhort you to find Reagan's keynote address to the 1964 GOP Convention and listen to it. It is as relevant today as it was then.

Then, find hit the ID/Nazis/haters with this little kernel; Reagan's faith led him; he did not lead with his faith.

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:31:58pm

re: #41 sleepyone

Uh oh, I bet they sent your name over to Auntie Janet for inclusion on the List!

simonml Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:33:02pm

re: #51 calcajun

Folks, I exhort you to find Reagan's keynote address to the 1964 GOP Convention and listen to it. It is as relevant today as it was then.

Then, find hit the ID/Nazis/haters with this little kernel; Reagan's faith led him; he did not lead with his faith.

Youtube Video

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:33:25pm

re: #28 thebigolddog

If you compromise your principles just to "win," what have you "won" exactly?

We cannot think in terms of "compromise"--think in terms of shared values within the party frame work and move from there. It also means driving the mutinous loonies back down into steerage.

SixDegrees Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:33:25pm

re: #24 Sharmuta

I agree with Ronald Reagan 100%

As do I. Especially this last bit:

maximum individual liberty

Which clears the entire table the Religious Right is trying to set for the GOP.

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:33:35pm

re: #47 Sharmuta

And who suggested you should exactly? The problem is, she quoted his words as the only valid test which she herself recently failed to pass in a historic way, and that was my point.

ArmyWife Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:33:39pm

re: #43 SixDegrees

If this were true, Arlen Specter wouldn't need to have made this move to cover his political arse, and we'd have a President McCain.

realwest Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:33:42pm

Hey y'all - just a quick Drive -by here, but you should all go read the spinoff link I just posted about Obama
disowning a deficit he helped shape (and from the AP no less!) couldn't even fit a third of the article into the space allowed for Spinoff links.
And Snowe, Specter and Collins were the three Republicans who voted for the "Stimulus bill" which none of them had read (although to be fair, iirc virtually the entire Congress said that they hadn't voted for the Stimulus Bill) but that bill is indicative of Big Spending Democratic Left - not Republicans, liberal or conservatives.
We don't need an ideological purity test, what we need are Republicans who believe smaller government is better than BIG government, that the individual has responsibilities as well as rights, in a strong national defense, lower taxes spur economic growth, small business, capitalism and in the sanctity of individual freedoms. Snowe, Collins and Specter have never believed in NOT throwing wads of cash around at problems as being the solution to problems and also have never thought that reducing the size and power of the Federal Government is the appropriate way to go. BTW, Collins is up for re-election in 2010.

SixDegrees Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:33:50pm

re: #45 KingKenrod

I like Snowe's argument but she's a terrible messenger.

Agree.

coquimbojoe Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:34:01pm

We are screwed. I want all the blame to be on the democrats next time around. I wouldn't think this way of there was a more even distributuion between the parties. there isn't shits coming down the pipe at us. Let the blame rest at the feet of the liberals/statists. Let the pandering republican whore join 'em, or learn a lesson.

alegrias Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:34:11pm

Olympia Snow also was wooed by Pres. Obama with a special invitation at the White House to vote for his PORKULUS bill.

Similarly, Joe Biden worked on Specter to switch parties for the last 100 days, said Biden himself, so Specter could stay with his seniority intact in the Senate, voting for PORK with Democrats, until he retires or dies on the job.

Self Interest is their ticket.

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:34:22pm

You voted for the Reid-Pelosi-Obama trillion-dollar bill without reading it, or even letting your constituents do so.

GO FUCK YOURSELF, Arlen.

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:34:54pm

re: #55 SixDegrees

Which clears the entire table the Religious Right is trying to set for the GOP.

These are the roots, the basics, to which we have to return. The party as we know it is doomed to fall apart otherwise.

Soona' Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:35:01pm

re: #44 Right Brain

My theory is that the Democrats who could not get their party to maintain the culture in which they were raised became Republican due to a belief, somewhat proven, that the Republicans would maintain it.

Odd that the party whose charter was little or no government, and responsible spending, became associated with cultural prohibitions that were done via government.

How did this happen? America is going into staggering debt because the people who would normally prevent this instead tried to prevent gay marriage, or pregnancy termination, and other dead issues.

Is there a way back? Not for another generation, Bush did to the Republican party what Carter did to the Democratic party.

Bush = moderate. See where that gets us?

albusteve Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:35:03pm

re: #61 alegrias

Olympia Snow also was wooed by Pres. Obama with a special invitation at the White House to vote for his PORKULUS bill.

Similarly, Joe Biden worked on Specter to switch parties for the last 100 days, said Biden himself, so Specter could stay with his seniority intact in the Senate, voting for PORK with Democrats, until he retires or dies on the job.

Self Interest is their ticket.

yes indeed....max spit

coquimbojoe Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:35:04pm

re: #58 realwest

Hey RW, How are you. Is there anyway I can upding your comment more? Please count my upding for 20 or so!

Shug Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:35:10pm

Re-election akhbar !

coquimbojoe Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:35:31pm

re: #62 astronmr20

You voted for the Reid-Pelosi-Obama trillion-dollar bill without reading it, or even letting your constituents do so.

GO FUCK YOURSELF, Arlen.

Probably tried it. It so much nicer to fuck us.

ArmyWife Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:35:44pm

re: #51 calcajun

True, but he was a social Conservative, like it or not. He was pro-life, and he was anti-gay marriage. I've linked to his speeches on this in posts past. The difference was, he didn't demand everyone be Christian - he simply asked that everyone be moral. He also didn't wage war against those who felt differently all the while never changing his view.

alegrias Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:35:47pm

re: #12 screaming_eagle

Why is it the Reps who don't stand for fiscal responsiblty are the first ones to blame the partys problems entirely on social issues ?

* * * *
IT'S HOW THEY WIN RE-ELECTION.

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:35:58pm

re: #54 calcajun

Shared values like open borders and socialism you mean?

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:36:44pm

re: #45 KingKenrod

I like Snowe's argument but she's a terrible messenger.

So was John the Baptist--too smelly. But he paved the way for a better messenger. Now, we have to look for our own for the GOP.

ArmyWife Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:36:48pm

re: #64 Soona'

McCain = social liberal. See where that got us?

TGregg Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:36:48pm

So she's not a fiscal conservative. And she's not a social conservative. As it so happens, there is a major political party that favors big government and sports a liberal social agenda. Why does she want two parties like that?

Let her go join the party that best expresses her belief in tax and spend government.

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:37:02pm

Spector and Snowe deserve each other.

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:37:10pm

re: #56 thebigolddog

And who suggested you should exactly? The problem is, she quoted his words as the only valid test which she herself recently failed to pass in a historic way, and that was my point.

I guess I'm less interested in beating up on Snowe as I am in getting back to what Reagan said because he was absolutely right. I grow weary of shooting the messenger, and I hope we don't do that here. Is she being hypocritical- yes. But it doesn't mean the message should be ignored because the carrier is less than stellar.

hornsofthedevil Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:37:38pm

[Ed. note: this account has been blocked.]

"idealogical purity"?

Is she referring to principles and morality? Oh. Okay.
This website has gone down the crapper.

countdown to my post being deleted...

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:37:43pm

re: #51 calcajun

Who specifically is leading with their faith and trying to convert the country exactly?

brookly red Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:37:47pm

re: #67 Shug

Re-election akhbar !

I am still on the fence but I am starting to warm up to term limits.

alegrias Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:38:09pm

re: #73 ArmyWife

McCain = social liberal. See where that got us?

* * * * *
PRO-LIFE and proud of it, is John McCain. Wanted abortion to be rare and infrequent.

Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:38:09pm

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

doppelganglander Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:38:15pm

Flounce on aisle 77!

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:38:40pm

re: #76 Sharmuta

Yes, why criticize her for her blatant hypocrisy? That is so tedious!

DEZes Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:38:58pm

re: #77 hornsofthedevil

"idealogical purity"?

Is she referring to principles and morality? Oh. Okay.
This website has gone down the crapper.

countdown to my post being deleted...

Shit yourself often?

Bloodnok Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:39:12pm

re: #77 hornsofthedevil

"idealogical purity"?

countdown to my post being deleted...

The countdown to me calling you a horse's ass has just expired.

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:39:21pm

re: #69 ArmyWife

Yes, he was in the sense that the government did not and could not infringe on personal freedoms. He knew, too, where his values collided with the law, then the law won.

baier Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:39:37pm

re: #60 coquimbojoe

We are screwed. I want all the blame to be on the democrats next time around. I wouldn't think this way of there was a more even distributuion between the parties. there isn't shits coming down the pipe at us. Let the blame rest at the feet of the liberals/statists. Let the pandering republican whore join 'em, or learn a lesson.

This is not a good plan...

Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:39:46pm

Typical.

Gus Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:39:51pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

Let's see...

40% of the earmarks in the recent budget bill was added by Republicans.

The leader of that crop of Republicans was Mitch McConnell.

Let me keep looking...

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:39:57pm

re: #83 thebigolddog

Yes, why criticize her for her blatant hypocrisy? That is so tedious!

Because it allows us to ignore the message? If Newt had come out with this, would we be discussing the merits of this or discussing Newt?

BenghaziHoops Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:40:27pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

You may not believe this..But around the water fountain ..Mitch Daniels has been talked about. The Gov. Of Indiana..

DEZes Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:40:28pm

re: #88 Charles

Typical.

I meant to hit reply, not quote.
My bad.

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:40:28pm

re: #81 Charles

Problem is we know 3 who definitely don't and just voted for the largest, most irresponsible spending bill in history and without them, the bill (which they never even bothered to read) would never have passed.

Shug Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:40:43pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

Ron Paul

/ DUCKS

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:40:54pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

We can name a lot who didn't vote for the Trillion-dollar generational-theft boondoggle, auto-bailouts, or this incredibly bloated budget.

Snowe and Spector are not on the list. Many others are.

Snowe and Spector have gone beyond the realm of fiscal irresponsibility and into the land of taxpayer rape.

LGoPs Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:40:59pm

Snowe is a Flake.
/

coquimbojoe Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:41:04pm

re: #89 Gus 802

Let's see...

40% of the earmarks in the recent budget bill was added by Republicans.

The leader of that crop of Republicans was Mitch McConnell.

Let me keep looking...

I am sure there is a decent politician out there, republican or democrat I know not which, but it is gonna take a long hard search.

SixDegrees Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:41:10pm

re: #63 calcajun

These are the roots, the basics, to which we have to return. The party as we know it is doomed to fall apart otherwise.

Anyone attempting to establish a theocracy in this country will have to go through me first. It is as fundamentally un-American as anything is possible to be. We're supposed to be the nation where all people are free to live their lives as they see fit. Trying to turn anyone who isn't a Fundamentalist Baptist into a second-class citizen, or simply removing their right to be anything else, is the antithesis of Conservatism, and flies in the face of Reagan's statement promoting non-intrusive government and individual liberty. The Religious Right in control of the GOP is a recipe for disaster; it's vision for America is to turn the country into an extremist Christian version of Afghanistan under the Taliban.

alegrias Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:41:29pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

* * * * *
Well, McCain supposedly has never voted for a single (is earmarked appropriations the term?) for his own state.

100

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:41:45pm

re: #90 Sharmuta

Yes, I love messages from hypocrites who can't live up to their own admonitions. They are good people to take advice from.

101

Soona' Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:41:55pm

re: #76 Sharmuta

I guess I'm less interested in beating up on Snowe as I am in getting back to what Reagan said because he was absolutely right. I grow weary of shooting the messenger, and I hope we don't do that here. Is she being hypocritical- yes. But it doesn't mean the message should be ignored because the carrier is less than stellar.

Less than stellar? She's a chip off the 'ole "Sphincter".

102

sleepyone Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:42:06pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

I can't think of one on a national level.

103

Gus Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:42:18pm

re: #97 coquimbojoe

I am sure there is a decent politician out there, republican or democrat I know not which, but it is gonna take a long hard search.

I haven't seen any so far but I am keeping an eye open.

104

coquimbojoe Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:42:23pm

re: #87 baier

This is not a good plan...

I didn't say give up the fight. we need to fight against all the corruption, wherever it come from, from all the waste and foolish policies. It is time to fight hard and be heard.

105

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:42:30pm

re: #98 SixDegrees

Who is trying to establish a theocracy?

106

solomonpanting Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:42:41pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

Well, he lost to Obama.

107

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:42:57pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

Fiscal responsibility is under the bus.

108

jorline Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:43:07pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

I can't name one Charles, they're all lacking leadership abilities as well.

No guts...no glory!

109

unrealizedviewpoint Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:43:11pm

re: #77 hornsofthedevil

(...)countdown to my post being deleted...

You also should have take into account your posting privileges being blocked as part of your countdown. Cya.

110

Russkilitlover Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:43:18pm

If these folks, Snowe and Collins are saying it now, it gives me hope. Maybe they got a bit clued in by all the public anger over the porkulous. Their vote was despicable and in my opinion, a betrayal of their colleagues, but if they start doing what they are now

saying

, I'll give them the benefit of doubt.

111

Soona' Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:43:33pm

re: #79 brookly red

I am still on the fence but I am starting to warm up to term limits.

Me too.

112

[deleted] Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:43:36pm

113

LGoPs Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:44:18pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

What about Romney. I'd put my money on him.

114

jorline Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:44:25pm

re: #91 HoosierHoops

You may not believe this..But around the water fountain ..Mitch Daniels has been talked about. The Gov. Of Indiana..

It's time for someone to step to the head of the line Hoopster.

115

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:44:52pm

re: #78 thebigolddog

Who specifically is leading with their faith and trying to convert the country exactly?

Huh? Who the hell has Charles been railing against for months. The "Christian" wing of the GOP which has been lobbying to get ID/Creationism surreptitiously taught in public schools. The same groups that ham-strung Romney (not that I liked him as a candidate) and compromise other potentially viable candidates by getting them to take a swig of their kool-aid. Once they do that, they're primed for a beat down by the press. Until the religion element is pushed to the back of the platform, this will happen again and again.

116

Shug Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:44:57pm

Creationism in American Politics

I understand that is written by the ID people, but it just shows you how deep the Creationism/ID movement has been and is in American Politics. They are touting it as something good. I see it as the exact opposite.

so take it FWIW

117

ArmyWife Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:45:27pm

and for the record, anti-gay marriage is different than anti-gay people. I don't believe in Gay marriage, but I don't care at all what two consenting adults do in their bedroom so long as harm isn't done.

118

unrealizedviewpoint Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:45:55pm

(waiting for 100 comments) OT

Recent arrival to my inbox. This sign was prominently displayed in the window of a business in Warren.
MI

'WE WOULD RATHER DO BUSINESS WITH 1000 AL-QAEDA TERRORISTS... THAN WITH ONE SINGLE AMERICAN SOLDIER!'

You are probably outraged at the thought of such an inflammatory statement! However, we are a society which holds Freedom of Speech as perhaps our greatest liberty. And after all, it is just a sign. You may ask what kind of business would dare post such a sign?

Answer: A Funeral Home
(Who said morticians had no sense of humor?)

119

Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:45:55pm

And that's part of the problem here. People just immediately dismiss and hurl insults at anyone who tries to be sensible about the ideological crisis of the GOP.

120

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:45:58pm

re: #115 calcajun

That's not a "theocracy." It's fine to be concerned about the creationist influence, but you are freaking out over hyperbole.

121

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:46:18pm

You know fiscal conservatism is dead when people don't think the Balanced Budget Amendment is worth supporting a second time.

122

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:46:24pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

In the last eight years...

(crickets)

This is not so much a "crash and burn" as it is a slow motion train wreck.

123

Athos Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:46:30pm

re: #76 Sharmuta

I guess I'm less interested in beating up on Snowe as I am in getting back to what Reagan said because he was absolutely right. I grow weary of shooting the messenger, and I hope we don't do that here. Is she being hypocritical- yes. But it doesn't mean the message should be ignored because the carrier is less than stellar.

Great point - Snowe completely misses out on the point about repercussions for the collapse that she, Collins, and Specter did on the porkulus bill which permitted that bad legislation to pass. Instead of seeing the impact of that and Specter's pollsters report to him that he would not win either the Repub primary or running as an Independent (hence his self-centered / power & ego motivated decision to change parties) - its far easier to blame the GOP itself and its lack of tolerance.

I'm all for a decision in the GOP about what its core values need to be and which values we shouldn't tolerate in the party in order to be positioned to have credibility to express a better vision and agenda to the country. But, let's not let Snowe or Specter define the debate any more than we should let creationists and birchers define the debate.

124

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:46:35pm

re: #115 calcajun

To be honest, I am still trying to figure that out which is why I spend as much time here as I do.

125

LGoPs Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:46:44pm

re: #117 ArmyWife

and for the record, anti-gay marriage is different than anti-gay people. I don't believe in Gay marriage, but I don't care at all what two consenting adults do in their bedroom so long as harm isn't done.

Agreed. I am fully supportive of Civil Unions and would encourage them.

126

jorline Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:46:56pm

re: #107 Sharmuta

Fiscal responsibility is under the bus.

All other values and responsibilities were run over a few miles back.

127

Athos Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:48:18pm

re: #107 Sharmuta

Fiscal responsibility is under the bus.

If Obama can recycle those who he tosses under the bus, the GOP better learn to bring this one back from under the bus.....otherwise the entire party will end up running themselves over with that damned bus.

128

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:48:30pm

re: #119 Charles

And that's part of the problem here. People just immediately dismiss and hurl insults at anyone who tries to be sensible about the ideological crisis of the GOP.

The issue on this post comment thread, Charles, is that the preaching and examples coming from politicians who have insulted their voters in a manner far beyond socially-conservative litmus tests.

This budget is outright madness. The bailout was the biggest heist in human history. Etc.

On these points, I stand my ideological ground. It's a matter of degree.

129

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:48:38pm

re: #119 Charles

Ya, Snowe is a pure as the driven Snow. The woman who wants the party to rally around fiscal responsibility after she helped pass Porkulus. If it wasn't so serious I'd laugh my head off. I give her an A for chutzpah however.

130

[deleted] Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:48:57pm

131

Wendya Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:49:07pm

re: #43 SixDegrees

Snowe may not fit the Conservative mold as snugly as some would like, but in this case she's on target.

Excuse me but any republican who voted for Porkzilla is NOT a conservative and has absolutely no right to lecture the rest of us.

132

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:49:12pm

So- how about that Reagan quote? Was he right or was he right?

133

realwest Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:49:21pm

re: #81 Charles
Rudy. Dug NYC out of a financial mess he inherited from NYC's former mayor, liberal democrat David Dinkins.

134

Ayeless in Ghazi Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:49:35pm

This is one of the reasons I do not support Scottish nationalism:

Scottish National Party endorses Islamist candidate to stand against moderate muslim Labour party candidate

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

According to this paper, written by Qaradawi, the beating of wives is acceptable. And here, Qaradawi writes that western tolerance of homosexuality “put man in a position even worse than animals” and suggests that capital punishment is an appropriate response to homosexuality.

But, according to Osama Saeed, who leads the Scottish Islamic Foundation, Qaradawi is an “eminent scholar”. Saeed has complained that the BBC accurately reported Qaradawi’s relelant views of violence against women and homosexuals.

Oh, and did I mention that Saeed was last week formally endorsed as a parliamentary candidate for the nationalists in Scotland?

In doing so, the nationalists have become the first “mainstream” party in the United Kingdom to endorse an Islamist candidate.

135

J.S. Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:49:36pm

re: #107 Sharmuta

I get the feeling (I'm not living in the States, so this is all watching/observing from the outside) that lots and lots of Americans really like the tax and spend and plunge the country into whopping, excess debt. CNN just did some (yes, I know, it's not scientific, etc) poll and gave Obama an A on the economy (I'm just surprised it wasn't an A +)...(also, all these obscure names -- Snowe, for example -- I can't even comment on since I don't know who these people are -- for me, they're like non-entities...sigh...it's like the Republican Party is in a real vacuum, without any leaders of merit, etc.)

136

Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:49:41pm

Wow, a hypocritical politician! Never seen one of those before.

/dripping

137

Kenneth Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:49:42pm

re: #119 Charles

And that's part of the problem here. People just immediately dismiss and hurl insults at anyone who tries to be sensible about the ideological crisis of the GOP.

Commie Nazi!

138

Russkilitlover Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:50:00pm

re: #110 Russkilitlover

So that's what happens when you hit quotes and not italics.

139

wrenchwench Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:50:00pm

re: #121 Sharmuta

You know fiscal conservatism is dead when people don't think the Balanced Budget Amendment is worth supporting a second time.

I'm not convinced the Constitution has to be amended to achieve responsibility. I am convinced that the attempt to do so would use up a LOT of time and money.

140

screaming_eagle Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:51:00pm

re: #94 Shug

Ron Paul

/ DUCKS

John McCain
/RABBITS

141

Wendya Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:51:22pm

re: #132 Sharmuta

So- how about that Reagan quote? Was he right or was he right?

What exactly was in the republican platform when Reagan was elected?

142

Kenneth Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:51:29pm

re: #132 Sharmuta

Reagan was right on.

143

Athos Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:51:29pm

re: #117 ArmyWife

and for the record, anti-gay marriage is different than anti-gay people. I don't believe in Gay marriage, but I don't care at all what two consenting adults do in their bedroom so long as harm isn't done.

Exactly. Furthermore, if the laws are to be changed to enable same-sex marriage, then let that process take place as it did in Iowa - via legislation and votes of either the people or their representatives. Not via judicial fiat. If the majority support gay marriage as opposed to civil unions - then that is the majority rule. At the very least though, they are entitled to civil union recognition which is equal to the legal status of marriage even if it isn't called marriage.

144

ArmyWife Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:51:30pm

re: #80 alegrias

I agree - but that isn't the only standard. He is pro-open borders and amnesty, and there is that McCain-Feingold thing for further discussion.

145

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:51:41pm

The only thing Snowe is really concerned about is that she'll wind up just like Specter. This is her feeble attempt to prevent that/ pave the way for the move to the Dem party herself I have a feeling the people in Maine won't forget however given the calls I hear day after day to throw her and Collins out ASAP.

146

SixDegrees Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:51:45pm

re: #120 astronmr20

That's not a "theocracy." It's fine to be concerned about the creationist influence, but you are freaking out over hyperbole.

Actually, that's exactly what it is. You're only correct in that it isn't a theocracy - yet. It is most certainly an attempt to establish one.

147

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:51:53pm

re: #120 astronmr20

That's not a "theocracy." It's fine to be concerned about the creationist influence, but you are freaking out over hyperbole.

It's not Creationism per se--it's the detrimental influence. If a candidate gets branded as having supported one such bill, or has had to curry favor to get the support of such an organization, he/she will be branded if they try to ascend to the national stage.

It seem fairly straightforward to me. Either the GOP goes back to the model that worked in the late 70's and got Reagan elected to two terms, or it implodes completely and has to be rebuilt as a new national party. It cannot go on as it is.

148

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:52:00pm

re: #13 jorline

I wish I had more dings to give goddess.

Oh, if I were single and she were desperate!

149

Gus Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:52:20pm

re: #125 LGoPs

Agreed. I am fully supportive of Civil Unions and would encourage them.

I am supportive of civil unions as well. I could support gay marriages but think that it's a little to early on and think that perhaps they're biting off more then they can chew in many cases. That being the case I would also support the right of a church to reject gay marriages. This would of course emphasize civil unions which is the legal wording of current marriages.

150

Soona' Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:52:21pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

All congressmen/women are going to try to fund things for their state. That's just the political process that's been in place almost from the time of the 1st Congress. The litmus test that I think most people would agree on would be putting the brakes on and reversing socialism. Rework the tax laws (fair tax/flat tax) and pass permanent balanced budget regulations so that these people can't wage war on my bank account.

151

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:53:00pm

re: #89 Gus 802

40% of the earmarks in the recent budget bill was added by Republicans.

Thanks for the reminder.

The rest of you, don't let it interfere with your daily ODS fix.

152

coquimbojoe Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:53:16pm

re: #119 Charles

And that's part of the problem here. People just immediately dismiss and hurl insults at anyone who tries to be sensible about the ideological crisis of the GOP.

I completely agree with the fact that there is an ideological crisis in the GOP. And maybe Sen. Snowe has some good points on that. My reaction to her is that (and I am putting thoughts into her head based on her actions over the years) she has always been a liberal with an R behind her name. My guess she thinks the GOP needs change (!), and I agree as far as that goes, but my guess is her idea of change would make the GOP more liberal. My opinion is that if the GOP were to be remade in her image, it might as well follow Spectre.

153

SixDegrees Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:53:23pm

re: #131 Wendya

Excuse me but any republican who voted for Porkzilla is NOT a conservative and has absolutely no right to lecture the rest of us.

Read me entire post. Understand it. Rejecting the message - which happens to be correct - because of the messenger is foolish. Those mythical ostriches with their heads in the sand leap to mind.

154

Sosigado Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:53:28pm

If you're a conservative, you don't give a rat's ass what Olympia Snowe or Arlen Specter or Susan Collins think. At least I don't. I'm not going to compromise my principles. I know that doesn't matter a hoot to anyone else here, but I feel strongly about that. I will not move anywhere near left-of-center just because it seems to have become fashionable. I disagree with just about everything a liberal stands for, or think they stand for, and I'm not about to pack it in and fold up my tent. Rant off, and feel free to fire away.

155

Kenneth Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:53:32pm

re: #141 Wendya

What exactly was in the republican platform when Reagan was elected?

Just that:

"Our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty.”

156

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:53:32pm

re: #150 Soona'

Give me your money.

157

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:53:36pm

re: #139 wrenchwench

I'm not convinced the Constitution has to be amended to achieve responsibility. I am convinced that the attempt to do so would use up a LOT of time and money.

We do so because restricting Congressional power when they've consistently shown they can't be responsible otherwise is the exact reason why the Founders built in an amendment clause in the first place. It's an American thing to do- restrict government power. We can't trust them on their own, so something more needs to be done. The BBA was proposed 15 years ago. Had we managed to pass it and ratify it, we might not be in this mess today.

158

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:54:13pm

re: #136 Charles

Wow, a hypocritical politician! Never seen one of those before.

/dripping

Charles,

The hypocrisy she exhibits here leaves the planet, solar system, and even galaxy of normal political hypocrisy.

She has laid a big dump on her constituents.. on taxpayers, on her party, on Americans.

Again, its a matter of degree.

159

Gus Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:54:15pm

re: #151 Cato the Elder

Thanks for the reminder.

The rest of you, don't let it interfere with your daily ODS fix.

Odd how reality doesn't match the rhetoric sometimes isn't it?

160

lobo91 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:54:16pm

Aside from the letter next to her name, could someone please explain to me what makes Snowe a Republican?

Did she pick her party affiliation the way Bloomberg did when he ran for mayor ("Hey, look...there's nobody running on the Republican ticket...I'll sign up for that one")?

I'm seriously confused as to why Republicans should take advice from someone who's probably too far left to get elected as a Democrat in about 35 states...

161

DEZes Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:54:22pm

re: #132 Sharmuta

So- how about that Reagan quote? Was he right or was he right?

Reagan was the first President I voted for, I believed in him then.
And still do.

162

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:54:39pm

re: #136 Charles

Dude, there are degrees of hypocrisy. She is a 10/10 and if you don't think her true objective here was self preservation in what may be a jump over herself then you are just uninformed about what's happening in Maine right now. I listened to these people call about Collins and Snowe almost everyday and the people of Maine are pretty angry at her betrayal just as the people of Pennslvania were made about Specters. This has nothing to do with the social issues at all. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

163

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:55:09pm

re: #146 SixDegrees

Actually, that's exactly what it is. You're only correct in that it isn't a theocracy - yet. It is most certainly an attempt to establish one.

You have given no evidence of such.

164

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:55:27pm

re: #146 SixDegrees

Actually, that's exactly what it is. You're only correct in that it isn't a theocracy - yet. It is most certainly an attempt to establish one.

Only it won't be a "Christian" one (Popery--it isn't just a bunch of dried flowers!) The coming Muslim overlords will thank all the work done for them by the Christian right in undermining the First Amendment.

165

jorline Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:55:37pm

This is what our government looks like today...grab a tit!

Small business and the American citizens are quickly becoming the runt.

166

FurryOldGuyJeans Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:55:38pm

re: #121 Sharmuta

You know fiscal conservatism is dead when people don't think the Balanced Budget Amendment is worth supporting a second time.

Too many people didn't think it worthwhile the first time around because it would have restricted Congress from throwing around money like a WestPac sailor on liberty at Subic Bay.

Even more so today core fiscal conservatism is doomed to be ignored in the rush for more bread and circuses for the masses.

167

ArmyWife Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:55:45pm

re: #125 LGoPs

I'm not, but only because the exact same legal protections can be provided by other means. That said, should an Republican candidate present himself* as having all the right attributes and the support of civil unions was the only flaw, I'd get past it and vote that guy* in.

*himself and guy is gender neutral for the purposes of this post.

168

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:55:45pm

re: #150 Soona'

Rework the tax laws (fair tax/flat tax) and pass permanent balanced budget regulations so that these people can't wage war on my bank account.

They won't balance the budget unless we make them.

169

sleepyone Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:55:54pm

re: #145 thebigolddog

The only thing Snowe is really concerned about is that she'll wind up just like Specter. This is her feeble attempt to prevent that/ pave the way for the move to the Dem party herself I have a feeling the people in Maine won't forget however given the calls I hear day after day to throw her and Collins out ASAP.

I would love to vote her out here in Maine but unfortunately the opposing candidate running against either her or Collins is always a completely crazy leftist, borderline socialist. As I've said before, I don't think there is any way in hell this state full of ex-Bostonians and New Yorkers would vote for anyone that even smells conservative. Maybe on a state level way up in the northern counties but down here in the Portland area, no way. Depressing I tells ya.

170

albusteve Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:56:02pm

re: #150 Soona'

All congressmen/women are going to try to fund things for their state. That's just the political process that's been in place almost from the time of the 1st Congress. The litmus test that I think most people would agree on would be putting the brakes on and reversing socialism. Rework the tax laws (fair tax/flat tax) and pass permanent balanced budget regulations so that these people can't wage war on my bank account.

not gonna happen...votes are bought and sold by the very people that make the rules...I have nothing but contempt for the lot of them...and I'm amused at all the windy hairsplitting regarding this person or that....all of it has been said 1000s of times before....redundancy is now a hallmark of political thought, nothing new, just the same old bitchfest over and over

171

Shug Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:56:20pm

I don't know this group, the National Taxpayers Union but they rate congress

[Link: www.ntu.org...]

172

Athos Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:56:32pm

re: #152 coquimbojoe

While the GOP needs change, remaking it more like the Democrat Party is not the change that it needs.

The tough part is that there is no central unifiying figure like a Reagan who can pull the party together by focusing on key planks like fiscal responsibility, strong national defense, and smaller government not bigger government as opposed to trying to be all things to all people regardless of the contradictions and hypocrisy that results.

173

J.D. Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:56:53pm

re: #133 realwest

Rudy. Dug NYC out of a financial mess he inherited from NYC's former mayor, liberal democrat David Dinkins.

Yes, indeed.
One of the reasons I voted for Rudy in the primary.

To say the change in NYC was dramatic is an understatement.

174

jorline Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:56:57pm

re: #148 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, if I were single and she were desperate!

Grab an apple and start polishing...lol

175

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:57:01pm

re: #136 Charles

hypocritical politician!

Redundancy.

176

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:57:05pm

re: #169 sleepyone

True, but she should still keep her flappy maw the fuck shut.

177

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:57:41pm

re: #165 jorline

This is what our government looks like today...grab a tit!

Small business and the American citizens are quickly becoming the runt.

Today?

Where have you been for the last 60 years?

178

coquimbojoe Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:57:52pm

re: #172 Athos

Agree completely.

179

unrealizedviewpoint Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:58:00pm

re: #173 J.D.

Yes, indeed.
One of the reasons I voted for Rudy in the primary.

To say the change in NYC was dramatic is an understatement.

Rudy was the right guy for THIS time.

180

J.D. Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:58:05pm

re: #165 jorline

This is what our government looks like today...grab a tit!

Small business and the American citizens are quickly becoming the runt.

I'm hoping to have something left when he's finished taxing my business.

It's already ridiculous.

181

shane Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:58:09pm

He has a bit of point but maybe the tent that includes people who want smaller government and less spending didn't include Specter.

182

Velvet Elvis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:58:29pm

You know, on lefty website whenever people get frustrated with conservative democrats not toeing the party line the response to to point out how the republicans kicked out all their moderates and liberals with Club for Growth sponsored primary challenges that went on to lose to a democrat in the general.

I vote for moderate Republicans at the local level but there just aren't that many left at the national level.

183

LGoPs Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:58:34pm

re: #152 coquimbojoe

I completely agree with the fact that there is an ideological crisis in the GOP. And maybe Sen. Snowe has some good points on that. My reaction to her is that (and I am putting thoughts into her head based on her actions over the years) she has always been a liberal with an R behind her name. My guess she thinks the GOP needs change (!), and I agree as far as that goes, but my guess is her idea of change would make the GOP more liberal. My opinion is that if the GOP were to be remade in her image, it might as well follow Spectre.

This country needs a Republican Party that represents a contrast in idealogy to the Democratic Party. Pushing for the GOP to be Democrat Light is a recipe for failure. Those voters already inclined to socialism will just go out and vote for the real McCoy. The rest will stay home.

184

eon Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:58:48pm

re: #119 Charles

And that's part of the problem here. People just immediately dismiss and hurl insults at anyone who tries to be sensible about the ideological crisis of the GOP.

Good Evening, Sir. And Lizards.

I took the time to look up Snowe's voting record. Other than her (fundamentally unwise) stimulus vote, she's pretty much a straight conservative- opposes gun control, supports fighting Islamist terrorism on its own turf, not ours (has repeatedly opposed efforts to set a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq, including The One's announced one), etc. In short, she's hardly a RINO, nor is she a "far-right" type of the Buchananite school. In fact, I'm pretty sure that quite a few Lizards probably hold views roughly similar to the way she votes, for the most part.

So, if she's saying the GOP needs to think carefully about its philosophical "direction", maybe the GOP should listen.

That said, I tend to disagree with her on "losing" Arlen Specter- since his votes tended to be the exact opposite of hers.

I still say Specter is an opportunist who will do literally anything to stay in the Senate. and he was given zero chance of winning renomination in the next GOP primary in PA- by his own advisors.

/ I predict the Democrats will, in the end, wish he'd remained in the Republican Party. Because now, he's their problem.

cheers

eon

185

Russkilitlover Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:58:56pm

re: #162 thebigolddog

Dude, there are degrees of hypocrisy. She is a 10/10 and if you don't think her true objective here was self preservation in what may be a jump over herself then you are just uninformed about what's happening in Maine right now. I listened to these people call about Collins and Snowe almost everyday and the people of Maine are pretty angry at her betrayal just as the people of Pennslvania were made about Specters. This has nothing to do with the social issues at all. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

So you're from Maine? How did she run for her elections? Was she touting Reagan and fiscal conservatism or is this a new thing for her? Are the people of Maine ready and able to vote for a fiscon Republican to replace her? Is there one up there?

186

coquimbojoe Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:59:02pm

re: #165 jorline

This is what our government looks like today...grab a tit!

Small business and the American citizens are quickly becoming the runt.

Oooh! I call being the spotted one!

187

FurryOldGuyJeans Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:59:17pm

re: #157 Sharmuta

We do so because restricting Congressional power when they've consistently shown they can't be responsible otherwise is the exact reason why the Founders built in an amendment clause in the first place. It's an American thing to do- restrict government power. We can't trust them on their own, so something more needs to be done. The BBA was proposed 15 years ago. Had we managed to pass it and ratify it, we might not be in this mess today.

Politicians have shown that they will snatch any powers not actively prohibited from them by the people or by the law, so really an amendment is really the only thing that will even remotely throttle the ravening beast that is our government.

188

Gus Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:59:44pm

re: #171 Shug

I don't know this group, the National Taxpayers Union but they rate congress

[Link: www.ntu.org...]

Collins and Snowe got a D and an F respectively.

[Link: www.ntu.org...]

189

wrenchwench Wed, Apr 29, 2009 4:59:44pm

re: #157 Sharmuta

Any input on my second sentence?

I am convinced that the attempt to do so would use up a LOT of time and money.

190

seagreenroom Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:00:18pm

If the GOP wants to dilute itself to make itself more palatable to more people, then what's the point? You dilute conservatism down far enough and it becomes liberalism with a flag lapel pin. Better to stick to one's principles and let the chips fall where they may. In the end, all any of us has is our integrity. You either stand for something, or you don't.

If conservatives in congress would stick to their guns, they'd draw more acolytes. People are looking for principled leadership and we're just not seeing any on the conservative side, aside from a few like DeMint, etc.

People say cons have to be more "flexible".

"Flexible is what brought down the party and ushered in the current banana republic.

191

Soona' Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:00:39pm

re: #156 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Give me your money.

So sayeth the zero.

192

Russkilitlover Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:00:48pm

re: #172 Athos

While the GOP needs change, remaking it more like the Democrat Party is not the change that it needs.

The tough part is that there is no central unifiying figure like a Reagan who can pull the party together by focusing on key planks like fiscal responsibility, strong national defense, and smaller government not bigger government as opposed to trying to be all things to all people regardless of the contradictions and hypocrisy that results.

With the recent statements from both Collins and Snowe, maybe a bulb just went off over their head. Not betting the house on it, but I'm hopeful.

193

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:00:50pm

re: #183 LGoPs

This country needs a Republican Party that represents a contrast in idealogy to the Democratic Party. Pushing for the GOP to be Democrat Light is a recipe for failure. Those voters already inclined to socialism will just go out and vote for the real McCoy. The rest will stay home.

Republicans lose when fiscal conservatives are unwelcome. It happened in the presidential campaigns of the 90s, and it happened again when the GOP Congress started spending like democrats. Fiscal conservatives can and do vote 3rd party or not at all. The GOP can't win without them.

194

sleepyone Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:01:24pm

re: #162 thebigolddog

Dude, there are degrees of hypocrisy. She is a 10/10 and if you don't think her true objective here was self preservation in what may be a jump over herself then you are just uninformed about what's happening in Maine right now. I listened to these people call about Collins and Snowe almost everyday and the people of Maine are pretty angry at her betrayal just as the people of Pennslvania were made about Specters. This has nothing to do with the social issues at all. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

I hear those radio callers as well but I just don't think they can be beat. Even if both of them change their party affiliation they will still win. The majority of the voters here in Maine vote for them precisely because they are sort of in the center and don't really stand for anything. At least that's how I see it.

195

jorline Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:01:25pm

re: #177 Cato the Elder

Today?

Where have you been for the last 60 years?

The pig as evolved Cato...new and improved milk factory.

196

albusteve Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:01:39pm

re: #189 wrenchwench

Any input on my second sentence?

so what?....money means nothing anymore....what value do you put on your principles?....LISTEN TO SHARMUTA for gods sake....there are few choices and you can't just yak your way out of this mess....talk talk talk

197

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:01:44pm

re: #187 FurryOldGuyJeans

Politicians have shown that they will snatch any powers not actively prohibited from them by the people or by the law, so really an amendment is really the only thing that will even remotely throttle the ravening beast that is our government.

I agree!

198

CyanSnowHawk Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:01:47pm

re: #154 Sosigado

If you're a conservative, you don't give a rat's ass what Olympia Snowe or Arlen Specter or Susan Collins think. At least I don't. I'm not going to compromise my principles. I know that doesn't matter a hoot to anyone else here, but I feel strongly about that. I will not move anywhere near left-of-center just because it seems to have become fashionable. I disagree with just about everything a liberal stands for, or think they stand for, and I'm not about to pack it in and fold up my tent. Rant off, and feel free to fire away.

Feel free to not vote for the (R) candidate just because of some ideological stance on a single or a few social issues, but keep in mind that doing so will result in further (D) wins for POTUS and a continued (D) majority in Congress. As Mandy would want to know, are you happy now?

199

Mycroft Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:01:54pm

There is no plausible scenario under which Republicans can grow into a majority while shrinking our ideological confines and continuing to retract into a regional party. Ideological purity is not the ticket back to the promised land of governing majorities

Well...they can shrink their ideological confines to eliminate the wing-nut right, the crazies who are anti-science, hate gays, and want to erode the separation of church and state, etc., and appeal to the moderate left, the ones who are not ashamed to feel patriotism, who are not communist or hate Israel, etc, and form a majority that way.

Just a thought.

200

Jetpilot1101 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:02:05pm

Here comes Obama.

201

jorline Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:02:06pm

re: #180 J.D.

I'm hoping to have something left when he's finished taxing my business.

It's already ridiculous.

I hear ya...I'm in the same boat.

202

callahan23 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:02:17pm

Ok, nite night. You bright Lizards { }

203

BenghaziHoops Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:02:18pm

Obama pressy...

204

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:02:23pm

re: #184 eon

...and her helping pass this budget and the "stimulus" erases all of that. I'm sorry.

This far and no further.

Call me a single-minded ideologue. Some of you folks have no idea how much we have been screwed by the likes of these two that helped grease the wheels for this abhorrent administration's bills.

205

Russkilitlover Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:02:23pm

re: #184 eon

Good Evening, Sir. And Lizards.

I took the time to look up Snowe's voting record.

No fair! How can you argue into hyperbole if you do something like fact check?

Cheater!
/

206

Neutral President Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:02:24pm

re: #27 Sharmuta

It would just be better if it didn't reek of hypocrisy.

I've always used Specter and Snowe as examples of the kind of "Republicans" we could do without. Not because they were moderate on social issues, but because they were liberal big spending Beltway insiders who are out of touch with reality. Their idea of "fiscal responsibility" is raising taxes to cover the deficits their drunken sailor spending creates. I can't figure out why any of these people were Republicans in the first place other than a tactical move to get elected in the first place by pandering to knee-jerk party-line voters. If they were socialist socons like Huckabee and Jindal, I'd be no more happy but I'd at least understand why they think they belong here.

If I ever once heard any of them talk about individual liberties or limited government maybe I wouldn't feel this way, but I never have. Reagen's big tent philosophy was correct. Concentrate on the areas we agree: Limited government, individual liberties, strong national defense... Snowe and Specter by their actions and voting record going back as far as I can remember both fail on those issues to some extent. If those issues are the core to what 'conservative' really is supposed to mean, and I believe this to be true, they can go join the "Government can fix *everything* by throwing your money at it crowd" in some other party. I think by concentrating on fiscal conservatism and toning down the howling from the socialist socons we can attract more independents who don't want to mortgage their grandchildrens' future away.

Keeping big spenders who vote yes to every pork project, yes to every "bailout", and want to raise taxes as a way to cover the spending isn't going to attract them.

My Congressman has voted NO on every one of these atrocities. He "gets it" and these RINOs don't. If he didn't, I'd be writing in "Undead Reagen" on the ballot next year.

207

jeremy1013 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:02:36pm

No insults to hurl, Charles. She's just plain wrong. The repubs demotivated their base by overspending, failed attempts at reform, and Bush created a vacuum of communication that was ultimately filled by Obama. Bush had a lot of right ideas, but he couldn't communicate them.

Pushing a SoCon boogeyman is ridiculous.

208

IslandLibertarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:02:39pm

Nope, you can't win with extreme ideologies, nope, nope, nope.
Why if the Democrats had followed a radical left policy of "social-engineering" they would have never won the White House.

/ahem, "0" was not a moderate.............

209

sleepyone Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:02:40pm

re: #176 astronmr20

True, but she should still keep her flappy maw the fuck shut.

About this topic, she absolutely should. She couldn't be more wrong about this.

210

Shug Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:02:49pm

I'll turn it on in 10 minutes when The TOTUS stops giving it's opening remarks

211

Fenway_Nation Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:03:11pm

Sorry...what did Olympia Snow say exactly? I was busy getting some healthy eating advice from Micheal Moore.

212

goddessoftheclassroom Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:03:15pm

Good night, Lizards. Take care.

213

theuglydougling Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:03:36pm

Before we pat ourselves on the back too much for being so reasonable and moderate for defending Specter let's not forget that he said himself that he didn't want to face his republican constituents in the primary. In other words, he didn't want to be held accountable for his votes by those who voted for him in the first place. He's running away like a little coward. Selfishness, pure and simple. Oh, but he's so principled.

214

FurryOldGuyJeans Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:03:42pm

re: #189 wrenchwench

The virtual Dem-controlled Congress seems bound and determined to ignore that they are OUR employees and do as they damned well pleased. Right now no matter how much money is spent getting a BBA passed and ratified would be a minuscule drop in the bucket compared to the Porkulus spending, forget the hit to the deficit and the economy if health care were to be nationalized.

215

Bloodnok Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:03:43pm

re: #209 sleepyone

About this topic, she absolutely should. She couldn't be more wrong about this.

So Reagan was wrong?

216

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:03:47pm

re: #198 CyanSnowHawk

WHEN THOSE REPUBLICANS VOTE FOR THE STIMULUS, WHY DOES IT FUCKING MATTER?

217

jorline Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:03:48pm

Watch Obama...not watching....the not watching's have it.

Surfing the channel now!

218

unrealizedviewpoint Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:03:55pm

I guess The One is on now. Time for a walk. Cya.

219

ArmyWife Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:03:59pm

re: #193 Sharmuta

Agreed - a fundamental principal of the Republican party is fiscal conservatism. The lot we have now has forgotten this, and it's key to reclaiming our party. This, in conjunction with upholding the Constitution and investing in a strong national defense is exactly the idealogical change we so desperately need. None of these things are mutually exclusive.

220

FurryOldGuyJeans Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:04:10pm

re: #191 Soona'

So sayeth the zero.

And virtually the entirety of Congress.

221

Soona' Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:04:20pm

It's been fun. Later, all.

222

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:04:51pm

re: #189 wrenchwench

I would rather spend the time and money on fixing the root cause of the problem than have them spend time and money on such important issues as drug use in professional sports, and witch hunts in the CIA. The fact is Congress spends time and money on far, far less worthy issues than the BBA. Perhaps the BBA would eliminate some of that.

223

livefreeor die Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:05:10pm

C'mon, TOTUS.
Blow a fuse right now.

224

lobo91 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:05:30pm

re: #187 FurryOldGuyJeans

Politicians have shown that they will snatch any powers not actively prohibited from them by the people or by the law, so really an amendment is really the only thing that will even remotely throttle the ravening beast that is our government.

I seriously doubt that even a balanced budget amendment would stop them.

There would almost certainly have to be some sort of "emergency" clause in it. Everything would just become an emergency.

225

wrenchwench Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:05:36pm

re: #214 FurryOldGuyJeans

The virtual Dem-controlled Congress seems bound and determined to ignore that they are OUR employees and do as they damned well pleased. Right now no matter how much money is spent getting a BBA passed and ratified would be a minuscule drop in the bucket compared to the Porkulus spending, forget the hit to the deficit and the economy if health care were to be nationalized.

If the focus is on passing an amendment, we'll never get any fiscal conservatives elected. Takes a lot longer to pass an amendment than to run a campaign for congress.

226

Beach Lover Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:05:36pm

he's telling us to inflate our tires...
oh ,wait!
wrong speech....wash your hands

227

Russkilitlover Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:05:38pm

re: #216 astronmr20

WHEN THOSE REPUBLICANS VOTE FOR THE STIMULUS, WHY DOES IT FUCKING MATTER?

What if they realized what a huge mistake it was and are actually forming into a loyal opposition party - one with ideas and a forum to express those ideas? Still want to toss them away?

228

Shug Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:05:39pm

Listening to Barry White
Rading LGF
Streaming the Tigers-Yankees game.

my plate is full.
I can get the recap of what the TOTUS said later

229

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:05:45pm

re: #184 eon

Good Evening, Sir. And Lizards.

I took the time to look up Snowe's voting record. Other than her (fundamentally unwise) stimulus vote, she's pretty much a straight conservative- opposes gun control, supports fighting Islamist terrorism on its own turf, not ours (has repeatedly opposed efforts to set a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq, including The One's announced one), etc. In short, she's hardly a RINO, nor is she a "far-right" type of the Buchananite school. In fact, I'm pretty sure that quite a few Lizards probably hold views roughly similar to the way she votes, for the most part.

So, if she's saying the GOP needs to think carefully about its philosophical "direction", maybe the GOP should listen.

That said, I tend to disagree with her on "losing" Arlen Specter- since his votes tended to be the exact opposite of hers.

I still say Specter is an opportunist who will do literally anything to stay in the Senate. and he was given zero chance of winning renomination in the next GOP primary in PA- by his own advisors.

/ I predict the Democrats will, in the end, wish he'd remained in the Republican Party. Because now, he's their problem.

cheers

eon

I just thought that was worth repeating. :)

230

jcm Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:05:47pm

Snowejob cites RWR:

“We should emphasize the things that unite us and make these the only ‘litmus test’ of what constitutes a Republican: our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty.”

Snowe on restraining government spending: FAIL
Snowe on pro-growth policies: FAIL
Snowe on tax reduction: FAIL
Snowe on sound national defense: FAIL
Snowe on maximum individual liberty: FAIL

231

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:05:48pm

re: #215 Bloodnok

So Reagan was wrong?

According to the ideologues, he was.

232

Wendya Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:06:38pm

re: #153 SixDegrees

Read me entire post. Understand it. Rejecting the message - which happens to be correct - because of the messenger is foolish. Those mythical ostriches with their heads in the sand leap to mind.

I doubt she even understood the quote. It was an opportunistic slam at the right for not being left enough to suit her.

The very same people railing about ideological purists are trying to impose their own form of ideological purity.

233

[deleted] Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:06:48pm

234

sleepyone Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:07:37pm

re: #215 Bloodnok

So Reagan was wrong?

The Reagan quotes above are indeed right and good. But I don't think Specter falls into a category worthy of "agreeing to disagree". He is no friend to conservatives. That's my issue with her statement.

235

solomonpanting Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:07:38pm

FWIW, check out
How Conservative Interest Groups Rate the Senators (2007)

Notice the last two rose-colored entries.

236

FurryOldGuyJeans Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:07:39pm

Listening to Senator Snowe for how to reform the GOP would be like asking Dr. Josef Mengele for medical advice on how to combat the flu.

237

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:07:46pm

re: #224 lobo91

I seriously doubt that even a balanced budget amendment would stop them.

There would almost certainly have to be some sort of "emergency" clause in it. Everything would just become an emergency.

There is an emergency clause in the BBA that requires a 3/5 vote in both houses to approve deficit spending. But in the case of an unforeseen national disaster, I think such a clause is wise. I do not think 3/5 in both houses on willy-nilly spending would become the norm.

238

jhrhv Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:08:13pm

OT I'm wathing the One on Fox. He just said terrorism. Din't he mean "man made disaster".

239

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:08:18pm

re: #228 Shug

Damn, you've topped me and I thought I had it perfect!

In a bar, with you guys.

240

doppelganglander Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:08:25pm

re: #228 Shug

Listening to Barry White
Rading LGF
Streaming the Tigers-Yankees game.

my plate is full.
I can get the recap of what the TOTUS said later

Mostly it's going to be a series of blaming Bush for everything and listing how old he was when some world event happened.

241

sleepyone Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:08:37pm

Gotta get the kids ready for bed. Later.

242

FurryOldGuyJeans Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:08:45pm

re: #215 Bloodnok

So Reagan was wrong?

You listen to the ideologues of the GOP and he would be.

243

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:08:48pm

re: #227 Russkilitlover

Yes. If they are too goddamned stupid to realize what they voted for.. to not even read it, then we don't need them.

The likes of these two won't be "leading" anything anyway.

I am "torches and pitchforks" mad.

/can you tell?

244

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:08:48pm

re: #211 Fenway_Nation

Sorry...what did Olympia Snow say exactly? I was busy getting some healthy eating advice from Micheal Moore.

I tried to use his lesson on banana eating. Just could not do by putting my hand on the back of my head and pushing...oh, never mind./

245

Jim in Virginia Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:08:49pm

NRO observed yesterday that Specter left the GOP when he voted against confirming Bork in 1987.
I agree with Snowe that we need a big tent party, but Specter wasn't driven out, this was simple political calculus. I can tolerate Specter's support for abortion; his gay rights policy doesn't bother me, I can even put up with his climate change policy. But he's voted more with the Democratic majority on too many issues, and the GOP Senate campaign committee as receently as last week still planned to support him in a primary.
Good riddance.

246

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:08:53pm

AP asking about closing the border w/ Mexico.

Did a pig just fly by my window?

247

jhrhv Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:08:58pm

wholly typo's sorry.

248

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:09:03pm

re: #240 doppelganglander

Mostly it's going to be a series of blaming Bush for everything and listing how old he was when some world event happened.

Oh yeah? How old was he when that big jet buzzed NYC?

249

livefreeor die Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:09:08pm

re: #240 doppelganglander

Mostly it's going to be a series of blaming Bush for everything and listing how old he was when some world event happened.

Don't forget the obligatory patting himself on the back a few times.

250

jcm Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:09:19pm

Obama, on 100th Day, Says He Is ‘Remaking America’

President Barack Obama marked his 100th day in office by telling Americans that “we’ve begun the work of remaking America.”

No shit Sherlock. I kinda like the one we had, sure it need a little work, but it's always been a work in progress, it didn't need to be torn down and remade.

251

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:09:20pm

re: #223 livefreeor die

C'mon, TOTUS.
Blow a fuse right now.

Quick, someone upload the grocery list.

252

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:09:21pm

re: #233 taxfreekiller

Democrats are commies.

They can not be fixed.

R's are your only chance.

Not these R's.

Fuck 'em.

253

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:09:31pm

Moderates joined Reagan. Not the other way around.

254

albusteve Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:10:07pm

re: #236 FurryOldGuyJeans

Listening to Senator Snowe for how to reform the GOP would be like asking Dr. Josef Mengele for medical advice on how to combat the flu.

it's just so much bullshit...it barely deserves a passing comment...people want to analyze it to death...I guess that's what blogs are for

255

doppelganglander Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:10:12pm

re: #249 livefreeor die

Don't forget the obligatory patting himself on the back a few times.

Chiropractors are on standby.

256

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:10:12pm

re: #225 wrenchwench

If the focus is on passing an amendment, we'll never get any fiscal conservatives elected. Takes a lot longer to pass an amendment than to run a campaign for congress.

I disagree- we need to elect fiscal conservatives to pass the amendment. Republicans could run on supporting it and win. They did in 1994, and it worked. The problem was they dropped it too quickly. They should have kept pushing the issue. If they had, perhaps we'd have more fisc-cons in DC, and some rationality in government spending right now.

257

eon Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:10:16pm

Oh goody. According to The One, we've begun to "end the war in Iraq, and with our NATO allies focus on Afghanistan."

He didn't mention his diplodorks twisting Maliki's arm to make nice with the Baathist rejects who want to put Saddam's decorticated corpus back in his palace like Lenin- and go back to feeding people they don't like into woodchippers feet first.

Am I a bit deranged in suspecting the sudden increase in splodeydopes in Baghdad is not just a coincidence?

/The Baathists are probably figuring this is a good time to double down.

cheers

eon

258

Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:10:18pm

How come no POTUS/TOTUS thread?

259

screaming_eagle Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:10:33pm

re: #246 loppyd

AP asking about closing the border w/ Mexico.

Did a pig just fly by my window?

Congress sent it. If you hit the next one with a stick money will fall out of it.

260

jcm Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:10:38pm

re: #235 solomonpanting

FWIW, check out
How Conservative Interest Groups Rate the Senators (2007)

Notice the last two rose-colored entries.

The last 3, the 3 who voted for the Obamable budget.

261

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:11:05pm

re: #259 screaming_eagle

Congress sent it. If you hit the next one with a stick money will fall out of it.

Ha!

He dodged it.

262

livefreeor die Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:11:13pm

re: #250 jcm

Obama, on 100th Day, Says He Is ‘Remaking America’

No shit Sherlock. I kinda like the one we had, sure it need a little work, but it's always been a work in progress, it didn't need to be torn down and remade.

How come, if his remaking America is so great, he denied his agenda during the election?

263

FurryOldGuyJeans Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:11:23pm

re: #225 wrenchwench

If the focus is on passing an amendment, we'll never get any fiscal conservatives elected. Takes a lot longer to pass an amendment than to run a campaign for congress.

Gee, Newt had that emphasis and was the head of the Republican takeover of Congress from 40+ years of Dem rule. You dismiss all too easily the revolutionary ideals of Reagan and Gingrich for letting the American voter decide.

264

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:11:24pm

John Gibson's radio show today put together an 0bama first hundred days thing... I tried to laugh....

265

Jetpilot1101 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:11:25pm

Whose that troll in the purple sitting in the front row?

266

Randall Gross Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:11:36pm

re: #253 loppyd

Moderates joined Reagan. Not the other way around.

Reagan was attacked as a moderate and hollywood liberal by some of the conservatives of his day. Charles Krauthammer was one of them iirc.

267

albusteve Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:11:45pm

re: #250 jcm

Obama, on 100th Day, Says He Is ‘Remaking America’

No shit Sherlock. I kinda like the one we had, sure it need a little work, but it's always been a work in progress, it didn't need to be torn down and remade.

we will unmake his America...he will not be re-elected

268

Shug Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:11:50pm

re: #235 solomonpanting

FWIW, check out
How Conservative Interest Groups Rate the Senators (2007)

Notice the last two rose-colored entries.

check out the flip side

269

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:11:53pm

Anyone have a stopwatch handy?

270

Kenneth Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:12:00pm

The problem with a balanced budget amendment is that it would handcuff the gov't to a legislative and fiscal agenda which may not be appropriate for the circumstances. What would have happened in 1942 if the gov't has been forced to balance the budget instead of investing in the war effort? Mandated programs are no substitute for rational, sensible policy. Sometimes the gov't does need to run a deficit, and sometimes it needs to pay it off. Only rational consideration can determine when, not some automatic schedule invoked by a balanced budget amendment.

Which brings us to to the core problem: ultimately, it's not the elected, it's the electors. The people need to support sensible policy and hold dishonest or irresponsible politicians to account.

And there ain't no Constitutional amendment that can address that. Only proper values and the ballot box.

271

ArmyWife Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:12:12pm

re: #257 eon

No, you aren't. Boots on the ground will tell you you aren't.

272

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:12:12pm

re: #258 Walter L. Newton

Been waitin' on your lazy ass.

273

Beach Lover Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:12:21pm

re: #265 Jetpilot1101

Whose that troll in the purple sitting in the front row?

/

Helen thomas?

274

FightingBack Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:12:36pm

Did you know that Obama was part of the team that defeated Bird Flu? He just reminded us. Distinguished Senatorial career.

275

albusteve Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:12:37pm

re: #256 Sharmuta

keep pressing

276

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:12:41pm

re: #266 Thanos

Reagan was attacked as a moderate and hollywood liberal by some of the conservatives of his day. Charles Krauthammer was one of them iirc.

When he was running or while he was president?

I was 10 when he was elected.

277

Nevergiveup Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:12:49pm

re: #210 Shug

I'll turn it on in 10 minutes when The TOTUS stops giving it's opening remarks

I'm watching the Yankee Game. let me know if he declares WW3 or disbands the Armed Forces?

278

livefreeor die Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:13:02pm

re: #273 Beach Lover

Helen thomas?

Did they nail her to her perch yet?

279

CyanSnowHawk Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:13:05pm

re: #216 astronmr20

WHEN THOSE REPUBLICANS VOTE FOR THE STIMULUS, WHY DOES IT FUCKING MATTER?

As has been repeated above, don't let your anger at the messenger blind you to the message. I don't care that it was Snowe that said it, I'm wondering why more are not saying it, especially the people at the top positions of the GOP.

280

BatGuano Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:13:15pm

The Obamathon continues. I turned on the television a few minutes ago and it's Obama again, still talking!

281

Athos Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:13:18pm

re: #246 loppyd

AP asking about closing the border w/ Mexico.

Did a pig just fly by my window?

Just a gotcha question around an issue....even if he did, the spin would be far different from it was around closing the border to prevent illegal immigration.

I had a bunch of those myself today from a reporter seeking to get info on a controversial decision made by a neighboring city council last night....some of the council members said things that are negatively resonating in my town - but I didn't mention or react to them....it will not help anything to air it in the press, except to sell more papers.

282

Jetpilot1101 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:13:31pm

re: #273 Beach Lover

Helen thomas?

I think you are right, I mistook it for one of the Pharaohs of Egypt.

283

Shug Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:13:38pm

re: #277 Nevergiveup

I'm watching the Yankee Game. let me know if he declares WW3 or disbands the Armed Forces?

Who, Steinbrenner?

284

LGoPs Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:13:41pm

re: #246 loppyd

AP asking about closing the border w/ Mexico.

Did a pig just fly by my window?

Swine Flew......?
/

285

jcm Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:13:48pm

re: #276 loppyd

When he was running or while he was president?

I was 10 when he was elected.

I proudly vote for Reagan twice!

I deny voting early and often!
///

286

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:13:50pm

re: #277 Nevergiveup

The whole bar just looked over at me. Gave a rip roar laugh!

(i'm in a "hood" hotel...trying to keep it on the down low)...

287

SummerSong Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:13:56pm

Is there something screwy with karma points today?

There's a person who posts links all the time (Savannah W.) and they usually get a positive karma rating. Yet, when I click on her karma points, it says 24?
That cannot possibly be right.

Just wondering.

288

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:13:57pm

re: #270 Kenneth

The BBA allows for deficit spending with a super majority vote in both houses.

289

The Shadow Do Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:14:07pm

Medical advice from the White House? Paging Dr Obama....
I think I'll go to Jiffy Lube for financial advice.

290

solomonpanting Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:14:09pm

re: #268 Shug

Obama is that far down the list?

291

Nevergiveup Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:14:11pm

re: #283 Shug

Who, Steinbrenner?

I'm not really worried about George

292

jcm Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:14:21pm

re: #282 Jetpilot1101

I think you are right, I mistook it for one of the Pharaohs of Egypt.

The Pharaohs called her The Ancient One.

293

Beach Lover Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:14:22pm

re: #278 livefreeor die
LOL, no but they sure need a cover over her head

294

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:14:37pm

re: #273 Beach Lover

Helen thomas?

The Thing that Would Not Leave.

295

FurryOldGuyJeans Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:14:40pm

re: #280 BatGuano

The Obamathon continues. I turned on the television a few minutes ago and it's Obama again, still talking!

Where's his OFF switch?!?

296

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:14:41pm

re: #279 CyanSnowHawk

I do agree with the statement, but I truly cannot listen to it from the likes of her. I know that makes me sound irrational.

But it will fall on deaf ears and this particular messenger will only sully the message.

297

lobo91 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:14:43pm

re: #250 jcm

Obama, on 100th Day, Says He Is ‘Remaking America’

No shit Sherlock. I kinda like the one we had, sure it need a little work, but it's always been a work in progress, it didn't need to be torn down and remade.

Hmm...if he "remakes America" by basically tossing the Constitution into the waste basket, does that mean my oath to defend said Constitution becomes null and void?

Or does that make him one of those "domestic enemies" it mentions?

298

Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:14:49pm

re: #272 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Been waitin' on your lazy ass.

I'm waiting for the TOTUS to get finished to see how it effects the TV schedule tonight. The one and only hour of TV that I watch each week, LOST, is on tonight, but I can't tell from the TV schedule if they are going to push all programming up to follow the speech or if they are going to preempt the earlier shows.

It's the 100th episode of LOST, that's a milestone in night time espisodic series.

299

UberInfidel67 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:14:54pm

re: #250 jcm

Obama, on 100th Day, Says He Is ‘Remaking America’

No shit Sherlock. I kinda like the one we had, sure it need a little work, but it's always been a work in progress, it didn't need to be torn down and remade.

Infinite dings for you!

300

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:14:54pm

re: #287 SummerSong

Spinoff link ratings don't go towards karma.

301

sbvft contributor Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:15:00pm

ah yes, olympia snowe. she voted for the mount spendulus cluster----. i really care what she thinks.

302

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:15:11pm

re: #293 Beach Lover

LOL, no but they sure need a cover over her head

...head, face, arms, legs, feet.

303

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:15:24pm

re: #285 jcm

I proudly vote for Reagan twice!

I deny voting early and often!
///

I helped my dad campaign for him twice.

I wish I had been able to cast my vote for him.

George H.W. Bush was my first vote.

304

albusteve Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:15:37pm

re: #279 CyanSnowHawk

As has been repeated above, don't let your anger at the messenger blind you to the message. I don't care that it was Snowe that said it, I'm wondering why more are not saying it, especially the people at the top positions of the GOP.

because they are too gutless to attack the issue head on

305

Sosigado Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:15:39pm

re: #198 CyanSnowHawk

Feel free to not vote for the (R) candidate just because of some ideological stance on a single or a few social issues, but keep in mind that doing so will result in further (D) wins for POTUS and a continued (D) majority in Congress. As Mandy would want to know, are you happy now?

That's strictly your opinion. Sounds like capitulation, to me.

306

FrogMarch Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:15:47pm

you know what though - there's a separation for me on this issue. Does anyone miss Lincoln Chafey? I don't.

It's not about purity - it's about loyalty and respect. and for me - it's about getting rid of these politicians-for-life. We need fresh faces and articulate people in the party. I'm not interested in anything these old timers have to say. and the fact that we are pissed because they helped with that ridiculous spending bill should anger anyone - R or D.

307

CyanSnowHawk Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:15:56pm

re: #230 jcm

Snowejob cites RWR:

Snowe on restraining government spending: FAIL
Snowe on pro-growth policies: FAIL
Snowe on tax reduction: FAIL
Snowe on sound national defense: FAIL
Snowe on maximum individual liberty: FAIL

By all means, keep attacking the messenger and ignore the message.

“We should emphasize the things that unite us and make these the only ‘litmus test’ of what constitutes a Republican: our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty.”

308

Athos Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:16:13pm

I see he is still limiting the number of questions that can be asked at the presser by spending 15 minutes answering each one........

309

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:16:16pm

re: #294 calcajun

I remember that!

310

J.D. Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:16:19pm

re: #201 jorline

I hear ya...I'm in the same boat.

We shall commiserate.

311

eon Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:16:26pm

OOh. Now The One is claiming the UAW has "made enormous sacrifices"- so they somehow deserve to run GM.

The Lightworker is quoting a couple of Ayn Rand's "looters" in Atlas Shrugged, and I'm betting he doesn't even know it.

/Or would think it unwise even if he did.

cheers

eon

312

SummerSong Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:16:33pm

re: #300 Sharmuta

Spinoff link ratings don't go towards karma.

Aha! That explains it! Thanks for the prompt reply, Sharmuta.

313

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:16:42pm

JAKE!

314

BatGuano Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:16:47pm

re: #295 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm going to guess it is in a place where you would'nt want to put your hand.

315

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:16:53pm

re: #309 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I remember that!

Ah, John Belushi.

316

Randall Gross Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:17:00pm

re: #276 loppyd

When he was running or while he was president?

I was 10 when he was elected.

I voted for him, he was attacked while he was running. Pretty bitterly in some quarters. If he were running today they'd probably be treating him like McCain. It wasn't until they saw he was really connecting with the people that the Cons climbed on board. At the time the strong conservative thing he had going for him was his Anti Communism and his stance on rebuilding the US. 3 countries per year were falling to Communism during Carter's reign, so he made that his prime goal. It worked for him, it worked for us.

317

FurryOldGuyJeans Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:17:04pm

re: #298 Walter L. Newton

I'm waiting for the TOTUS to get finished to see how it effects the TV schedule tonight. The one and only hour of TV that I watch each week, LOST, is on tonight, but I can't tell from the TV schedule if they are going to push all programming up to follow the speech or if they are going to preempt the earlier shows.

It's the 100th episode of LOST, that's a milestone in night time espisodic series.

Not that I watch the show but from all the talk I hear about Lost I would be not be surprised the only thing that would make the network not show it is the Apocalypse.

318

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:17:11pm

re: #298 Walter L. Newton

Yup. All 6 seasons look like they're gonna happen.

319

Athos Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:17:25pm

If waterboarding was torture, why didn't Congress specifically define it as such and outlaw it?

320

screaming_eagle Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:17:31pm

Torture is the Dems in charge of the White House, Senate ,and House of Reps.

321

BenghaziHoops Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:17:39pm

re: #298 Walter L. Newton

I'm watching my first LOST tonight..Everything else is on TIVO.

322

Kenneth Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:17:44pm

re: #253 loppyd

Or as Reagan famously said, "I didn't leave the Democratic Party. It left me."

323

Jetpilot1101 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:17:46pm

What is Ed Schultz doing in the front row again?

324

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:17:58pm

re: #298 Walter L. Newton

Well, a little OT with you and me. I have almost smoked a couple of times and your ugly mug swims around my head, and I can't lie to you so I don't.

Seriously. Thanks pal.

325

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:18:03pm

re: #314 BatGuano

Just take your watch off before you try and use it.

326

FrogMarch Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:18:06pm

Specter lost it not with a social issue - but with a fiscal issue. that's good enough for me. I don't miss him one damn bit. Even if it means the R's have to spend decades in the wilderness.

Huntsman was right. Snowe is wrong. Snowe is just pissed because she man not be able to hold on to power for the rest of her natural life.

327

jamgarr Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:18:07pm

What other ways?

328

Nevergiveup Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:18:11pm

re: #323 Jetpilot1101

What is Ed Schultz doing in the front row again?

And he is?

329

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:18:31pm

Barry - you did NOT put an end to water boarding you lying sack.

It was your predecessor, George W. Bush.

330

Jetpilot1101 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:18:48pm

re: #328 Nevergiveup

And he is?

A so called moderate talk radio host who now has a show on MSNBC.

331

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:18:54pm

re: #321 HoosierHoops

I'm watching my first LOST tonight..Everything else is on TIVO.

You REALLY need to start from the beginning.

Unless you were talking about the TOTUS. In that case, yes... Lost, indeed.

332

Hawaii69 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:18:58pm

re: #2 coquimbojoe

Please follow Spectre.

She can follow Spectre, and you guys can follow the Dinosaur.

333

FrogMarch Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:18:58pm

man = may
pimf

334

Athos Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:18:58pm

re: #323 Jetpilot1101

What is Ed Schultz doing in the front row again?

The MSNBC seat has been bought and paid for - they got it for the entire first term. I think they also have dibs on Helen's seat if she doesn't show up - that goes to either Maddow or Olberidiot. Best out of three falls.

335

Nevergiveup Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:19:04pm

re: #330 Jetpilot1101

A so called moderate talk radio host who now has a show on MSNBC.

Thanks

336

doppelganglander Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:19:09pm

Anyone who doesn't want to watch "Lie to Me" as an alternative to TOTUS might try History International, if you get it. "Rome: Rise and Fall of an Empire" may be very instructive.

337

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:19:18pm

Let me know if he calls on a HuffPo "reporter".

338

Beach Lover Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:19:22pm

re: #329 loppyd

Barry - you did NOT put an end to water boarding you lying sack.

It was your predecessor, George W. Bush.

thanks for saying that...saved me from having to

339

FrogMarch Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:19:25pm

re: #323 Jetpilot1101

What is Ed Schultz doing in the front row again?

radical leftists have a place at the table?

340

guysmiley Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:19:26pm

No offense Charles, but for me, Specter was on my poop list when he voted for the massive stimulus bill. By Olympia Snowe's own words, Specter doesn't pass being a Republican.

"our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty."

Specter's support for the MASSIVE Porkulus Bill does not restrain growth, nor is it pro-growth in my estimation.

However, I am on board with you on kicking the creationists out of the party.

341

Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:19:34pm

re: #317 FurryOldGuyJeans

Not that I watch the show but from all the talk I hear about Lost I would be not be surprised the only thing that would make the network not show it is the Apocalypse.

Oh, they are going to show it, but I don't know if it is going to be pushed later into the evening. I'll have to wait until the TOTUS is done and then see what show follows. I'm not interested in other shows, so I'll stick here until LOST comes on.

342

Jetpilot1101 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:19:34pm

Obama just referred to German prisoners of war in WW2 as detainees. Does this man know anything of world history?

343

Sosigado Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:19:38pm

re: #252 astronmr20

Not these R's.

Fuck 'em.

And you have a viable alternative?

344

Athos Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:20:00pm

re: #339 FrogMarch

radical leftists have a place at the table?

Of course. To our President, he's mainstream.

345

IslandLibertarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:20:09pm

re: #248 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh yeah? How old was he when that big jet buzzed NYC?

How old was I when slavery was legal?

346

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:20:09pm

Yeah, telling our enemies to peruse the Army Field Manual to learn the limits we will go to to extract information is definitely making us safer.

347

Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:20:11pm

re: #321 HoosierHoops

I'm watching my first LOST tonight..Everything else is on TIVO.

YEA!

348

Kenneth Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:20:14pm

re: #274 FightingBack

Did you know that Obama was part of the team that defeated Bird Flu? He just reminded us. Distinguished Senatorial career.

Oh right, and you're going to blame him for the rubella epidemic of 1963, when The One was only 2 years old?

349

Jim in Virginia Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:20:19pm

re: #123 Athos

I'm all for a decision in the GOP about what its core values need to be and which values we shouldn't tolerate in the party in order to be positioned to have credibility to express a better vision and agenda to the country. But, let's not let Snowe or Specter define the debate any more than we should let creationists and birchers define the debate.

Upding!
OK, here's a platform:
End earmarks, now
A simple tax policy- if not a fair tax, back to the Reagan Rostenkowski tax reforms
A determined effort to achieve a balanced budget
Real Social Security and medicare reforms
Real transparency in government- push for what Obama promised (legislation on the web for five days before a vote)
Immigration reform. Don't close the borders, control them; enforce legislation requiring ID for new employees
Strong defenss, proactive, preemptive foreign policy
Starwars missile defense.
Separation of church and state.

What we dont tolerate:
Conspiracy theories
Anything that suggest or implies racism

350

jcm Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:20:44pm

re: #303 loppyd

I helped my dad campaign for him twice.

I wish I had been able to cast my vote for him.

George H.W. Bush was my first vote.

I have a picture of me sitting on a flat bed truck in front Richard M. Nixon campaigning for a local congress critter in '66. I was too young to vote then. RWR v. Rabbit Bait was my first national election I could vote.

351

astronmr20 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:20:45pm

re: #343 Sosigado

To Spector and Snowe? It doesn't matter.

352

Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:20:46pm

re: #318 astronmr20

Yup. All 6 seasons look like they're gonna happen.

The six seasons has been in the bag since season three.

353

Jetpilot1101 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:20:48pm

Who is this bearded douchebag?

354

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:20:57pm

re: #341 Walter L. Newton

I heard it was going to be an episode of "The Love Boat".

355

Nevergiveup Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:21:06pm

re: #342 Jetpilot1101

Obama just referred to German prisoners of war in WW2 as detainees. Does this man know anything of world history?

And our POWs in Japan were "guests" of the Emperor?

356

UberInfidel67 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:21:18pm

re: #336 doppelganglander
Ooops, my hand accidently clicked "reply" to you. Truth is, I have nothing to say! lol Sorry : )

357

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:21:22pm

re: #342 Jetpilot1101

Obama just referred to German prisoners of war in WW2 as detainees. Does this man know anything of world history?

You are shitting me?! They were conventional enemy combatants, caught in uniform. The ones that were not in uniform were shot as spies. These detainees are lucky.

358

jcm Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:21:39pm

re: #307 CyanSnowHawk

I'm saying like GotC said way up thread.

She's not in a position to lecture.

359

Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:21:46pm

re: #354 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I heard it was going to be an episode of "The Love Boat".

Just keep my ugly mug in your mind. And that wasn't funny :)

360

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:21:48pm

Did Barry read the documents re. what we gained from "torture"

If the US were under imminent threat would you use the same techniques?

DODGE!

361

doppelganglander Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:21:50pm

re: #356 UberInfidel67

Ooops, my hand accidently clicked "reply" to you. Truth is, I have nothing to say! lol Sorry : )

Well, hi anyway!

362

Jetpilot1101 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:22:10pm

re: #357 calcajun

You are shitting me?! They were conventional enemy combatants, caught in uniform. The ones that were not in uniform were shot as spies. These detainees are lucky.

Nope, not s---ing you at all. He even followed up that comment with a comment about how Churchill refused to allow torture.

363

jamgarr Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:22:28pm

'"I"

364

cronus Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:22:33pm

100 days of Obama's Facebook news feed.

News organizations have done an admirable job of recapping the first 100 days of the Obama administration. But rarely do we stumble across a primary source like Barack Obama's own Facebook feed.

365

BenghaziHoops Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:22:33pm

re: #331 astronmr20

You REALLY need to start from the beginning.

Unless you were talking about the TOTUS. In that case, yes... Lost, indeed.

I'm going to rent the first season of LOST. And tonight..
Blame Walter..It's not my fault! :)
/Hope today finds you well

366

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:22:34pm

re: #305 Sosigado

That's strictly your opinion. Sounds like capitulation, to me.

Politics is the art of compromise. No politician is going to agree with me 100%, so I already have to compromise a few of my positions. The question is, what issues can I compromise on while still feeling I'm getting the best candidate? Frankly- I'm done compromising my fiscal conservative positions. I may or may not agree with social position, but if a candidate isn't going to support fiscal responsibility, balancing the budget, restricting government spending, and supporting tax cuts, they can forget about me and my vote.

367

livefreeor die Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:22:54pm

re: #360 loppyd

Did Barry read the documents re. what we gained from "torture"

If the US were under imminent threat would you use the same techniques?

DODGE!

Somehow I think if he were under an imminent threat, he would do the waterboarding himself.

368

UberInfidel67 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:23:19pm

re: #361 doppelganglander
**waving**

369

J.S. Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:23:20pm

Obama once more (how many times a day does Obama do this?) is criticizing America (tacitly condemning the Bush administration), while promoting himself as America's "savior." (Will Americans ever grow sick of hearing Obama's shameless self-promotions? just a moment ago, he was again making an implicit comparison between himself and Winston Churchill -- pluh-leze...)

370

Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:23:21pm

re: #365 HoosierHoops

I'm going to rent the first season of LOST. And tonight..
Blame Walter..It's not my fault! :)
/Hope today finds you well

Wait, you are going to watch your fist episode on TV tonight? And THEN rent season one?

371

Sosigado Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:23:23pm

re: #357 calcajun

You are shitting me?! They were conventional enemy combatants, caught in uniform. The ones that were not in uniform were shot as spies. These detainees are lucky.

History being revised before your very eyes.

372

Jim in Virginia Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:23:23pm

Chuch Todd:

I want to move to Pakistan.

373

IslandLibertarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:23:26pm

re: #323 Jetpilot1101

What is Ed Schultz doing in the front row again?

He will provide the sound effects for the "Swine Flu" portion of the 100 Day Orgasmathon.

374

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:23:28pm

re: #367 livefreeor die

Somehow I think if he were under an imminent threat, he would do the waterboarding himself.

If only to preserve his legacy.

375

Athos Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:23:30pm

re: #360 loppyd

Did Barry read the documents re. what we gained from "torture"

If the US were under imminent threat would you use the same techniques?

DODGE!

It's the world as he wants it to be, not as it is. Of course, when he makes a bad call, it will not be his fault - he can't be held accountable or responsible for imposing his naive values and risking lives.

376

Kenneth Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:24:02pm

re: #342 Jetpilot1101

Are you kidding? His grandfather marched with Sherman when he liberated Auschwitz. Or the Alamo.

377

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:24:20pm

re: #362 Jetpilot1101

Nope, not s---ing you at all. He even followed up that comment with a comment about how Churchill refused to allow torture.

Huh? There are some folks in Ireland who might disagree. And, Winston's creation of the SOE was perhaps the biggest example of state-sponsored terrorism/obilque warfare since the start of the 20th century.

378

ArmyWife Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:24:28pm

re: #342 Jetpilot1101

The short answer is no.

379

Beach Lover Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:24:38pm

there has breen nothing in his first 100 days to make him want to change his mind on waterboarding?!
huh?
that sure leaves a lot of wiggle room for the future

380

Athos Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:24:45pm

Moving up thread .......

381

BenghaziHoops Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:25:01pm

re: #370 Walter L. Newton

Wait, you are going to watch your fist episode on TV tonight? And THEN rent season one?

Yup..My first show tonight..Then I'll rent the 1st year.Hope it's good!

382

CyanSnowHawk Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:25:18pm

re: #305 Sosigado

That's strictly your opinion. Sounds like capitulation, to me.

We've been watching it in action. McCain didn't lose because only a few stayed away from the polls.

383

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:25:43pm

re: #315 calcajun

I talked about that skit last week!

384

Kenneth Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:26:09pm

re: #346 loppyd

And by saying caterpillars are torture is telling the world we have no moral sense what so ever.

385

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:26:32pm

re: #355 Nevergiveup

Who still have not been paid for their "services".

386

jorline Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:26:47pm

Sung to Janice Joplin's Mercedes Benz

"O" won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz
My friends all drive Pontiacs, but they've come to an end
I've worked hard all of my lifetime, no help from GM
"O" won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz

387

Sosigado Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:27:00pm

re: #382 CyanSnowHawk

We've been watching it in action. McCain didn't lose because only a few stayed away from the polls.

No, he lost because he's a true "moderate". Sat on the fence, and held up his finger to see which way the wind was blowing.

388

Jim in Virginia Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:27:25pm

Wow.
"We want to recognize Pakistan's sovreignty but we need to make sure their nuclear arsenal remains out of militant hands. I won't engage in hypotheticals. "

389

Walter L. Newton Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:27:28pm

re: #381 HoosierHoops

Yup..My first show tonight..Then I'll rent the 1st year.Hope it's good!

Well, I defer to what you have planned, but you may want to reconsider. Remember, you are going to have to rent or buy 4 seasons, and then, if you want to catch up, watch season 5 (unless you have TIVO'd it) on line on the ABC web site.

Have fun. We can talk if you have any questions.

390

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:27:34pm

re: #384 Kenneth

caterpillars are torture

Do stop talking about Susan Boyle's eyebrows.

391

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:27:38pm

re: #384 Kenneth

And by saying caterpillars are torture is telling the world we have no moral sense what so ever.

Under Obama's definition of torture I was tortured on a daily basis by my brother when we were kids.

392

jcm Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:27:42pm

re: #384 Kenneth

And by saying caterpillars are torture is telling the world we have no moral sense what so ever.

Fuzzy Wuzzy Caterpillars of Torture!

393

eon Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:27:47pm

re: #342 Jetpilot1101

Obama just referred to German prisoners of war in WW2 as detainees. Does this man know anything of world history?

No. He's like the Emperor of China (Ko Hung, IIRC) who ordered al books and records in the country destroyed so that "all history will begin with my reign".

The One thinks that every day, he gets to hit the "Reset" button on reality.

And FTR, the reason Churchill said what The One referred to was that Germany was a signatory to the Hague Conventions on the treatment of prisoners of war, as was Great Britain, and that he expected that the Nazis would respect those accords in their treatment of Allied POWS, specifically British servicemen. Interestingly enough (in view of the Holocaust), the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe (who actually ran most of the POW camps) did so. Unfortunately, the same could not be said for the Gestapo (the 50 from Stalag Luft III who were murdered in retaliation for "The Great Escape") or the SS (the Malmedy' massacre during the Battle of the Bulge).

/As usual, The One doesn't understand the context. Or just doesn't fragging care.

cheers

eon

394

loppyd Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:28:34pm

re: #379 Beach Lover

there has breen nothing in his first 100 days to make him want to change his mind on waterboarding?!
huh?
that sure leaves a lot of wiggle room for the future

He uses the "we don't know that we could not have extracted the same intel by asking nicely" excuse.

395

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:29:18pm

re: #253 loppyd

Moderates joined Reagan. Not the other way around.

Moderates joined Reagan because he refused to try to push soconism on them.

396

Kenneth Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:31:12pm

re: #353 Jetpilot1101

Who is this bearded douchebag?

Stop dissing Hillary again.

397

Kenneth Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:32:44pm

re: #388 Jim in Virginia

Wow.
"We want to recognize Pakistan's sovreignty but we need to make sure their nuclear arsenal remains out of militant hands. I won't engage in hypotheticals. "

Wow is right!

Paging realwest: I think Obama might have just said "invade"...

398

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:33:17pm

re: #173 J.D.

Yes, indeed.
One of the reasons I voted for Rudy in the primary.

To say the change in NYC was dramatic is an understatement.

I agree. I once attended a function where Rudy explained his welfare reform program for New York City, one that was able to move people from welfare to actual work. One of the keys was his telling the welfare caseworkers that their job wasn't to get the welfare recipient the maximum government assistance but to get the welfare recipient off the government teat and into a job that would let them be self-sufficient -- and his adjusting the rewards to the caseworkers accordingly.

399

Sheepdogess Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:33:57pm

Snowe will be the next to go.

400

freetoken Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:35:05pm

re: #119 Charles

And that's part of the problem here. People just immediately dismiss and hurl insults at anyone who tries to be sensible about the ideological crisis of the GOP.

May I suggest that besides an ideological crisis there is also an identity crisis?

By that I mean 2 things: The different parts (e.g., State parties) don't agree on who they are - compare for example the CA GOP with the OK GOP.

More importantly there are many Americans who just can't identify with the GOP anymore. I am one of them. Since I've been eligible to vote, 5 times I have voted for the GOP Presidential candidate, and even registered as a Republican during the time of the Davis recall effort. Today however I do not identify with the GOP.

They don't want me... so I don't want them.

401

Neutral President Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:35:37pm

re: #395 Salamantis

Moderates joined Reagan because he refused to try to push soconism on them.

He also didn't pander to fiscal liberals. He convinced people of the wisdom behind fiscal conservatism.

402

calcajun Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:36:28pm

re: #393 eon

You forget, the Gestapo and SS paid visits to some camps and demanded the Jewish airmen be turned over for special handling. I met an old airman who told me of an incident in Luft Stalag I where Col. Hub Zemke was senior officer. Zemke refused to comply --and the man telling me the story was Jewish--and the Gestapo men threatened to kill Zemke, but he would not back down--telling the Gestapo that all the Americans in the camp "were Jews." This little old guy had tears in his eyes telling the story some 60 years on.

403

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:37:59pm

“As to the other issues that draw on the deep springs of morality and emotion, let us decide that we can disagree among ourselves as Republicans and tolerate the disagreement.”

Hmmm.

404

Scion9 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:39:50pm

re: #340 guysmiley

Even the voting on the bailout(s) isn't a dealbreaker in my opinion, as far as GOP-cred goes. The TARP at least was put forward by a Republican President's administration.

I don't know Snowe's story on that vote, but Arlen Specter was against it until the Democrats porked it up with his pet issue as a condition to get his needed vote. That is the very definition of corruption and is actual ethical misconduct if not outright criminal in practically every other profession, including other branches of elected office at the State and Federal level.

Not wanting Specter around, for me at least, has nothing to do with 'ideological purity' or shrinking any tents. Wanting the chronically corrupt, habitually, openly and unapologetically unethical away from the reigns of power isn't 'ideological' except in the very broadest of definitions of that word.

405

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:40:17pm

re: #395 Salamantis

Moderates joined Reagan because he refused to try to push soconism on them.

At the same time, he convinced defense conservatives and fiscal conservatives that social conservatives deserved a place inside the Republican Party's big tent.

Or do you think he meant the following only as an admonition to social conservatives?

“As to the other issues that draw on the deep springs of morality and emotion, let us decide that we can disagree among ourselves as Republicans and tolerate the disagreement.”

406

Throbert McGee Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:40:40pm

re: #149 Gus 802

I am supportive of civil unions as well. I could support gay marriages but think that it's a little to early on and think that perhaps they're biting off more then they can chew in many cases. That being the case I would also support the right of a church to reject gay marriages. This would of course emphasize civil unions which is the legal wording of current marriages.

Unfortunately, the prevailing political mindset in the Gay Community™ is that civil unions are simply a stepping stone from which we can sue, sue, sue our way to same-sex marriage -- in light of which, I can understand why some opponents of same-sex marriage are reluctant to accept civil unions as a compromise.

407

sbvft contributor Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:40:44pm

i really hate the shot of axelrod, jarrett & gibbs fondling their blackberries & "twittering". gee - they're so tech savvy. blecch

408

tgibson1962 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:40:56pm

re: #395 Salamantis

Moderates joined Reagan because he refused to try to push soconism on them.

Really?

From the 1980 Republican platform:

Abortion

There can be no doubt that the question of abortion, despite the complex nature of its various issues, is ultimately concerned with equality of rights under the law. While we recognize differing views on this question among Americans in general—and in our own Party—we affirm our support of a constitutional amendment to restore protection of the right to life for unborn children. We also support the Congressional efforts to restrict the use of taxpayers' dollars for abortion.

We protest the Supreme Court's intrusion into the family structure through its denial of the parent's obligation and right to guide their minor children.

Strong Families

The family is the foundation of our social order. It is the school of democracy. Its daily lessons—cooperation, tolerance, mutual concern, responsibility, industry—are fundamental to the order and progress of our Republic.

Education

Next to religious training and the home, education is the most important means by which families hand down to each new generation their ideals and beliefs. It is a pillar of a free society. But today, parents are losing control of their children's schooling.

Family protection

In view of the continuing efforts of the present Administration to define and influence the family through such federally funded conferences as the White House Conference on Families, we express our support for legislation protecting and defending the traditional American family against the ongoing erosion of its base in our society.

And from the Prologue:

And so, in this 1980 Republican Platform, we call out to the American people: With God's help, let us now, together, make America great again; let us now, together, make a new beginning.

Too bad Reagan didn't have Olympia Snowe...

409

EaterOfFood Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:44:52pm

re: #24 Sharmuta

I agree with Ronald Reagan 100%

Yeah, but does she?

410

onthow Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:49:46pm

Ideological purity is not the ticket back

Neither, it seems, is ideological inconsistency.

411

Palandine Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:51:26pm

Is this the Olympia Snowe who voted, enthusiastically, for The Porkulus? Without bothering to actually read it?

Mark Steyn, writing about Arnold Schwarzenegger, makes an interesting point about social moderates and fiscal conservatives--they're an extremely rare species. Snowe and Specter were not fiscal conservatives, they're fiscal liberals.

I don't have a litmus test. I was an enthusiastic fan of Rudy Giuliani, despite his social failings, because of his fiscal conservatism.

I'm also not too worried about 2010. The Dems will never vote for the (by then) 81-year-old, not reliably democrat, Specter. The Republicans will turn out in droves for Toomey. And the shine will have worn off quite a bit of the Messiah's halo by then.

412

hazzyday Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:52:12pm

I disagree with their porkulus ideas. That was bad judgment to me. I will agree that the GoP should probably just roll back to three major issues on a national stage.

1. Defense. Respect for borders, military support, and exerting power in the third world.
2. Economy. Slightly controlled free markets.
3. Less Government.

413

MPH Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:52:43pm

Not sure I should say much publicly --but I know what kind of person Olympia Snowe is. I dated her personal assistant some years back and there is no need to get into the specific details on a public forum-- but I am certain that the Senator is mentally ill and obsessed with power beyond what most normal people could be comfortable conceiving of.

414

hazzyday Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:54:15pm

re: #413 MPH

Not sure I should say much publicly --but I know what kind of person Olympia Snowe is. I dated her personal assistant some years back and there is no need to get into the specific details on a public forum-- but I am certain that the Senator is mentally ill and obsessed with power beyond what most normal people could be comfortable conceiving of.

That seems to get a lot of them elected.

415

freetoken Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:59:28pm

re: #413 MPH

Have you had much interaction with any (senior) politician? What you describe sounds like many politicians. Very very strong egos are a given in that line of work.

416

OldLineTexan Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:00:15pm

I just saw a commercial with cartoon pigs, lego people, and claymation advertising cap & trade as a "cool" way to "put money into the economy" with "new jobs".

Tell me again how McCain would've pushed this nonsense, please.

417

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:04:22pm

re: #405 stuiec

The problem is, that tolerance for disagreement on social issues is gone.

418

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:06:39pm

re: #408 tgibson1962

Other than the abortion issue- all of that is pretty vague and open to interpretation.

419

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:09:53pm

re: #417 Sharmuta

What is your own tolerance for disagreement on social issues?

420

Banner Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:13:36pm

While the emphasis on Social Issues is a big mistake for the GOP (real conservatives DO NOT CARE what your sexual orientation or practices are as long as you're not breaking the law or doing it in public), that is NOT what lost the GOP it's majority. It was spending policies that looked to democratic party like (though now we see that the GOP on it's best day can't spend money like the real pro's, 3 Trillion pork bills anyone?)

The GOP is better without spector, they should have kicked his butt out long ago.

McCain should have been booted as well.

As for Snowe? Go for the hat trick! Show her the door as well. Maybe if the party gets back to its roots of less laws, less taxes, less spending, people will vote for it again.

421

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:14:07pm

I find it ironic that the party who nominated the moderate candidate, a man who made his bones beating up his own party in public on a regular basis, is accused of being intolerant.

422

Banner Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:15:22pm

re: #421 thebigolddog

I find it ironic that the party who nominated the moderate candidate, a man who made his bones beating up his own party in public on a regular basis, is accused of being intolerant.

Yes well, that's the way of the radical, always attack, always lie. Remember, say something loud enough and long enough, and people will believe it.

423

jaunte Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:16:36pm

re: #421 thebigolddog

I don't think radicals or Democrats invented the term "RINO"

424

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:18:58pm

re: #423 jaunte

Ya, but they actually elect them....

425

Mich-again Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:20:23pm

We can’t continue to fold our philosophical tent into an umbrella under which only a select few are worthy to stand.

Especially when there are people like Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, and Pat Buchanan deciding who is worthy.

426

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:25:59pm

re: #417 Sharmuta

The problem is, that tolerance for disagreement on social issues is gone.

Yes, on BOTH sides. SoCons insist on pushing their priorities on the party -- and the party moderates insist on pushing the SoCons out of the party.

Isn't Israeli politics so much tidier, where everyone can belong to a party that exactly matches their laundry list of priorities and positions, and no one has to accommodate or compromise with anyone who thinks differently on any single issue?

427

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:26:26pm

re: #425 Mich-again

Where in the world would get that idea? Who in the world anointed them by the Left? Did either one of them even back McCain, you know, the guy who was the Presidential nominee? As for Buchanan, evidently you missed how he actually left the party in 1999.

428

crimeshark Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:28:21pm

When a politician speaks of a big umbrella and diversity in the party, it reminds me of the village idiots who claim that the Constitution is a "living, breathing" document. When you have a party with so many differing and competing interests within that it stands for everything for fear of offending the membership, your party, in fact, stands for nothing. Likewise, when you are so deluded as to believe that you can read anything at all into our Nation's charter in order to satisfy every whim not met by the legislative branch, you advocate reducing the Constitution to meaningless gibberish. In sum, Ms. Snowe should join Mr. Spectre if she wishes to belong to a party that admits everyone and means everything and anything to everyone who joins. I'm sure we'll all miss her.

429

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:28:45pm

re: #407 sbvft contributor

i really hate the shot of axelrod, jarrett & gibbs fondling their blackberries & "twittering". gee - they're so tech savvy. blecch

How else would the President know what to say, if he wasn't reading their tweets on the monitor at the back of the room? (Or is it built into the podium again this time?)

430

freetoken Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:29:02pm

re: #426 stuiec

As Syrah and Sharmuta discussed last night, American governance is such that we have big tent parties, not the smaller, more ideologically pure parties found in parliamentary systems.

431

rawmuse Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:30:19pm

re: #81 Charles

If anyone can name a Republican politician who passes the litmus test for fiscal responsibility, I'm all ears.

Bobby Jindal, Sarah Palin, Rick Perry

432

freetoken Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:31:13pm

re: #427 thebigolddog

Did either one of them even back McCain, you know, the guy who was the Presidential nominee?

You mean like Rush Limbaugh, who viciously attacked McCain for months before the election, and now is attacking him again?

433

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:31:45pm

re: #428 crimeshark

When a politician speaks of a big umbrella and diversity in the party, it reminds me of the village idiots who claim that the Constitution is a "living, breathing" document. When you have a party with so many differing and competing interests within that it stands for everything for fear of offending the membership, your party, in fact, stands for nothing. Likewise, when you are so deluded as to believe that you can read anything at all into our Nation's charter in order to satisfy every whim not met by the legislative branch, you advocate reducing the Constitution to meaningless gibberish. In sum, Ms. Snowe should join Mr. Spectre if she wishes to belong to a party that admits everyone and means everything and anything to everyone who joins. I'm sure we'll all miss her.

I agree. The big tent of the GOP should include everyone who buys into these principles, and none who don't:

“We should emphasize the things that unite us and make these the only ‘litmus test’ of what constitutes a Republican: our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty.”

434

daledog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:32:24pm

What social issues are we talking about here?

Abortion - This is a 50/50 (I'll grant 40/60) issue in the USA. What is so damned controversial about being pro-life?

Gay marriage - This is a 60/40 issue in the USA. What is so damned controversial about wanting to preserve the definition of marriage?

Stem Cell research - Adult/cord stem cells have been proven to work. Stem cells from fertilized eggs are risky at this point. With a finite amount of money available for research, what is so damned controversial about preferring adult stem cell research?

This SoCon bogey man shit is wearing me out.

435

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:32:51pm

re: #431 rawmuse

Bobby Jindal, Sarah Palin, Rick Perry

Good point.

436

Mich-again Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:33:52pm

re: #413 MPH

but I am certain that the Senator is mentally ill and obsessed with power beyond what most normal people could be comfortable conceiving of.

Not sure about who is mentally ill, but the part about "obsessed with power" is likely true for all 100 of them. The Senate wasn't supposed to be a haven for career politicians. The 17th amendment has proven to be a disaster for Federalism and American Government. It created a class of entrenched political elites more concerned with their National image and opinion polls and their Party than they are about the well-being of their home state. I say repeal the 17th amendment and let the State legislatures elect Senators. The American people have proven themselves incompetent at that task.

437

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:33:56pm

re: #432 freetoken

Exactly. In fact, the media was busy writing how Rush was irrelevant. Of coarse that all change when Obama needed an enemy and anointed him the head of the Republican party.

438

Mich-again Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:36:13pm

re: #431 rawmuse

How many billions of American taxpayer dollars has Bobby Jindal watched the Federal Government pour into New Orleans? Sorry, he's all talk when it comes to be a fiscal conservative.

439

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:36:22pm

re: #430 freetoken

As Syrah and Sharmuta discussed last night, American governance is such that we have big tent parties, not the smaller, more ideologically pure parties found in parliamentary systems.

Except that at this juncture, the Democrats are focusing on keeping all of their disparate elements in their tent -- easier to do when you have power and patronage -- whereas the Republicans are engaging in the kind of infighting that tears the tent to shreds. I don't believe that the infighting is a necessary step to reforming the Republican Party, but it may be unavoidable.

440

tradewind Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:36:53pm

We did need to lose Arlen Specter, and Snowe needs to go as well.
While we're down, we may as well have a good purge of RINOS.

441

Mich-again Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:40:13pm

re: #440 tradewind

How many do you think the GOP will have left when the so-called RINO's are gone? And who is the authority that gets to decide what makes someone a proper Republican?

442

muddywood Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:40:29pm

re: #81 Charles

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

a True Conservative

443

LesLein Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:40:39pm

"I couldn’t agree more. We can’t continue to fold our philosophical tent into an umbrella under which only a select few are worthy to stand. Rather, we should view an expansion of diversity within the party as a triumph that will broaden our appeal. That is the political road map we must follow to victory."

Contrary to what Snowe says, the GOP leaned backward to help Specter. In 2004 the GOP establishment helped him win the primary against conservative opposition. They helped him remain chair of the Judiciary committee despite his hostility to conservative judges. In the 1980s Reagan did all he could to accommodate Specter on Bork's Supreme Court nomination, only to be double crossed in the end.

It was Specter's vote on economic issues, not social issues, that made him an underdog for the 2010 GOP senate nomination. Snowe talks like a fiscal conservative and social liberal, but when the chips are down she votes like a fiscal liberal. The GOP lost in 2006 because of the war and in 2008 because of the economy. The 2010 and 2012 elections will be driven by reactions to Obama.

Specter first switched parties in the 1960s.

He's always been a snake.

444

Zimriel Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:40:43pm

re: #413 MPH

Not sure I should say much publicly --but I know what kind of person Olympia Snowe is. I dated her personal assistant some years back and there is no need to get into the specific details on a public forum-- but I am certain that the Senator is mentally ill and obsessed with power beyond what most normal people could be comfortable conceiving of.

I'm sorry, but that seems "off" to me. How could Snowe be obsessed with power? She is one of two underwhelming senators from a Canadian salient, population 1.3 million people, that never should have been cut loose from Massachusetts in the first place. If I sought power on a national level and I was from Maine, I would move - to New York, I suppose. Which is exactly what Barack Obama did, when he found himself wanting power but living in Hawaii.

A penchant for notoriety, fine. Contempt for Republican voters, certainly. But I don't see power-tripping on her list of sins.

445

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:41:29pm

re: #432 freetoken

You mean like Rush Limbaugh, who viciously attacked McCain for months before the election, and now is attacking him again?

Rush viciously attacked McCain for years before the election, and it was certainly no secret that he had no respect for McCain as a "pillar" of the Republican Party. And yet, when the nomination went to McCain, Rush suppressed his McCain disdain and supported his party's nominee. Which is what one ought to expect from someone whose preferred candidate didn't get the nomination.

"Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the Party" isn't just a typing exercise... or is it?

446

Banner Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:42:51pm

People need to understand that this is part of the process, the Dems went through the same thing when they lost power. To be honest, there are A LOT of Republicans the party would be better without. And I agree with the poster above who said the GOP needs to focus on lower taxes, pro-growth, and individual freedom. You'd be surprised at how many people who vote democrat think that is what democrats are for!

447

Zimriel Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:45:32pm

re: #441 Mich-again

How many do you think the GOP will have left when the so-called RINO's are gone? And who is the authority that gets to decide what makes someone a proper Republican?

Not "who", "what" - the authority is math.

If you have no interest in balancing a budget and/or are just dandy with raising taxes, then I'm voting for your primary opponent.

448

Ward Cleaver Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:47:29pm

She can leave, and take that other lamebrain Susan Collins with her.

449

LesLein Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:47:57pm

Snowe should ask Senator Lieberman about how big the Democrat's tent really is.

450

Ward Cleaver Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:49:49pm

re: #75 astronmr20

Spector and Snowe deserve each other.

They can start a Lowell Weicker fan club. Losers.

451

Mich-again Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:49:58pm

re: #447 Zimriel

So if the purity standard brings the ranks of the GOP down to a dozen Senators, thats OK?

452

Zimriel Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:50:15pm

re: #412 hazzyday

I disagree with their porkulus ideas. That was bad judgment to me. I will agree that the GoP should probably just roll back to three major issues on a national stage.

1. Defense. Respect for borders, military support, and exerting power in the third world.
2. Economy. Slightly controlled free markets.
3. Less Government.

Strict constructionist judges would help, too.

453

Ward Cleaver Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:51:07pm

re: #451 Mich-again

So if the purity standard brings the ranks of the GOP down to a dozen Senators, thats OK?

We need term limits. The incumbents have become power whores.

454

Banner Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:53:28pm

re: #451 Mich-again

If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

So yeah, it is okay. Maybe a newer better party will come along then. But why would anyone vote for 'democrat lite'? McCain proved that folly.

455

Mich-again Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:53:42pm

re: #453 Ward Cleaver

We need term limits. The incumbents have become power whores.

Repeal the 17th Amendment. The Senate was not supposed to be a 3-ring circus of career politician power whores.

456

Zimriel Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:55:10pm

re: #451 Mich-again

So if the purity standard brings the ranks of the GOP down to a dozen Senators, thats OK?

Would a fiscal responsibility platform and more respect for social conservatives really bring the GOP Senate down to a dozen? That platform should get votes; and if it doesn't get votes, then we're dealing with a disconnect between the voters and the Senators. A sham Republic with an oligarchy behind it, basically.

And I don't like where that train of thought leads. I prefer to think that an articulate party of fiscal and social conservatives would get a majority of voters who don't troll here under the name "avanti".

457

Nom de boom Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:56:21pm

“We should emphasize the things that unite us and make these the only ‘litmus test’ of what constitutes a Republican: our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty.”

vs.

"We didn't have to lose Arlen Specter."

Woman, please. Should we now add screeching cognitive dissonance to the list of litmus tests? Maybe out-and-out hypocrisy, as it appears she doesn't even pass the tests she cites? I absolutely agree with Reagan's comments (pace, SoCons), but they've been blatantly misappropriated on this occasion. Snowe is just attempting to provide covering fire for her own impending retreat into the welcoming arms of the DNC. Good riddance.

458

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:56:58pm

re: #408 tgibson1962

Now show me the legislation that Reagan pushed in order to enshrine those planks into law...

459

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:58:53pm

re: #441 Mich-again

The authority is called the electorate. They spoke in Specter's case and they may well do so again in the cases of Collins and Snowe.

460

Clutch Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:59:25pm

Term. F**cking. Limits.

NOW.

And make them retroactive.

461

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:59:55pm

re: #458 Salamantis

Which laws are you concerned about the Republicans enshrining exactly?

462

Mich-again Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:00:29pm

re: #454 Banner

The 2-Party system forces candidates to pull from the middle if they want to win elections. Obama did a better job of that than McCain. McCain lost for many reasons but mostly because he ran a clueless campaign and Sarah Palin was of no help adding to the vote tally.

The GOP will not win a Presidential election by surrendering the middle and pulling from the edge.

463

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:02:17pm

re: #405 stuiec

Sal: Moderates joined Reagan because he refused to try to push soconism on them.

At the same time, he convinced defense conservatives and fiscal conservatives that social conservatives deserved a place inside the Republican Party's big tent.

Or do you think he meant the following only as an admonition to social conservatives?

“As to the other issues that draw on the deep springs of morality and emotion, let us decide that we can disagree among ourselves as Republicans and tolerate the disagreement.”

Which in practice meant not pushing legislation that would alienate either of them - socons OR moderates. And indeed Reagan fed rhetorical red meat to the socon wing, but governed from the sensible center, and didn't try to pass any of their agenda. Which is one reason why he won a second term.

464

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:03:58pm

re: #452 Zimriel

Strict constructionist judges would help, too.

That is the most important thing IMHO. Having lived under a form of judicial tyranny I know first hand the very corrosive affect it has. I have no problem with anything constitutional passed by the people. Anything that is wrongly forced upon the people by judicial fiat is never truly settled. It lingers as an open, infected wound and often ends very badly.

465

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:05:05pm

re: #461 thebigolddog

Which laws are you concerned about the Republicans enshrining exactly?

A blanket prohibition on abortion, a blanket prohibition on gay civil unions, and a requirement to teach creationism in public schools.

Actually, I'm less concerned about these laws being passed as I am about the Republicans committing electoral hari kiri by allowing the socons to push them into TRYING to pass them.

466

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:07:33pm

re: #465 Salamantis

And with control of both houses and the Presidency how many of those laws did they pass?

467

Mich-again Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:08:28pm

re: #463 Salamantis

Which is one reason why he won a second term.

Well, that and the fact Walter Mondale had the charisma of a cardboard cutout. Reagan was popular because he had a way of connecting with everyone when he spoke and made Americans feel proud of their Country. Obama will never challenge Reagan for the title of "Great Communicator". Yes, he can complete a sentence (as long as the teleprompter is working), but the words have no meaning, its like white noise.

468

Sosigado Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:10:24pm

re: #462 Mich-again

The GOP will not win a Presidential election by surrendering the middle and pulling from the edge.

And in the midst of all that pandering, they will lose a significant chunk of voters (like me) who will not support another McCain II. IIRC, JM was considered too "conservative" by many that called themselves "moderates". Personally, I don't want any part of that action whatsoever.

469

Sharmuta Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:11:21pm

re: #426 stuiec

Yes, on BOTH sides. SoCons insist on pushing their priorities on the party -- and the party moderates insist on pushing the SoCons out of the party.

Isn't Israeli politics so much tidier, where everyone can belong to a party that exactly matches their laundry list of priorities and positions, and no one has to accommodate or compromise with anyone who thinks differently on any single issue?

I abhor the idea of parliamentary systems of government.

Look- social issue voters are confused as to the role of government- period. It's not the proper role of government to promote "values"- whether I agree with those values or not is moot. However- returning to fiscal matter could have a big impact on social matter- such as welfare funding undermining the family.

This is what I meant earlier when I said when government gets involved with social issues, it tends to make things worse, not better. The answers to these social problems is not more government.

470

Mich-again Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:13:02pm

re: #468 Sosigado

Its not pandering when you are trying to attract the bulk of the electorate and win the election. You win Presidential elections by winning the middle. (Or by cheating..)

471

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:14:53pm

re: #426 stuiec

Yes, on BOTH sides. SoCons insist on pushing their priorities on the party -- and the party moderates insist on pushing the SoCons out of the party.

Isn't Israeli politics so much tidier, where everyone can belong to a party that exactly matches their laundry list of priorities and positions, and no one has to accommodate or compromise with anyone who thinks differently on any single issue?

If the socons didn't stubbornly insist on trying to theocratically abuse the machinery of the State in order to legislate their own puritanical morality into law and thus endeavoring to force it upon unwilling others (and shafting general election prospects in the process), they'd be much more welcomed by the rest of Republicans. And the Republican Party would be much more favorably viewed by the moderates, centrists and independents that it takes to win elections.

I addressed this issue at length in a previous thread; here is a link to that post:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

472

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:16:55pm

re: #431 rawmuse

Bobby Jindal, Sarah Palin, Rick Perry

But two of those have disqualified themselves from national electability due to their rabid stands concerning pushing creationism in public schools.

473

Mich-again Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:18:19pm

re: #469 Sharmuta

This is what I meant earlier when I said when government gets involved with social issues, it tends to make things worse, not better. The answers to these social problems is not more government.

Rule #1 of Government. You always get more of whatever you subsidize.

474

Sosigado Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:19:12pm

re: #470 Mich-again

And in the process, you will most likely end up nominating a candidate that is just a shade to the right of Obama. If that's what I'm fighting for, than my dog's going to be taken out of the fight. I'll still vote, because I consider that an honor and a privilege, but it won't be for someone of that kind of ideological mindset. I just won't do it.

475

Mich-again Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:21:25pm

re: #472 Salamantis

And how hard is it for a Governor to claim to be "fiscally conservative" when the Feds are dumping hundreds of billions of dollars into public works projects in his State reclaiming the underwater city. If the people of Louisiana had to pay for that themselves we'd see how much of a fiscal conservative he would be.

476

Mich-again Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:22:34pm

re: #474 Sosigado

The GOP primaries gave us McCain the candidate. We did it to ourselves. I sure didn't vote for him in the Primary here.

477

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:25:32pm

re: #434 daledog

What social issues are we talking about here?

Abortion - This is a 50/50 (I'll grant 40/60) issue in the USA. What is so damned controversial about being pro-life?

3/4 of the US electorate does not want to see a blanket ban on abortion. To support one is electorally hamstringing.

Gay marriage - This is a 60/40 issue in the USA. What is so damned controversial about wanting to preserve the definition of marriage?

Those times they are a changin', especially with regards to civil unions. We can get ahead of that curve, or be left behind it.

Stem Cell research - Adult/cord stem cells have been proven to work. Stem cells from fertilized eggs are risky at this point. With a finite amount of money available for research, what is so damned controversial about preferring adult stem cell research?

478

FrogMarch Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:26:18pm

re: #16 thebigolddog

Snowe fails her own GOP litmus test

You can't make this stuff up!

Let’s have a show of hands from those who believe that Ronald Reagan would have voted for Porkulus, or issued a statement in support of massive government spending on make-work projects. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

heh.

479

Sosigado Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:30:28pm

re: #476 Mich-again

I'm not contesting that point, at all. All I'm saying is that if some of the folks here at LGF are correct in their insistence that conservatives in this country have had their day, and it's time for "change", then have at it. The hybrid candidate bound to be produced will be a liberal in almost every respect. I guarantee it. Maybe some of you don't mind that, or even in your heart of hearts hope for it. So be it. It doesn't suit me, and I won't stand behind it. I guess that's all I'm saying.

480

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:31:57pm

re: #477 Salamantis

The rest of my reply was cut off; here it is:

The anti-zygotic-stem-cell-research stance slacks of extreme anti-abortion 'every sperm is sacred' ism. If the excess zygotes fro0m fertility clinics are gonna be shitcanned otherwise anyway, WHY NOT try to employ them to benefit humankind?

We just don't know how far zygotic stem cell research would have advanced or what it would have achieved, because the government funding spigot has been turned off for it, but we will know in the future, because that spigot has recently been turned back on.

This SoCon bogey man shit is wearing me out.

A substantial chunk of the electorate is not unreasonably repelled by that bogey man, and they will never vote to allow it into their bedrooms.

481

Throbert McGee Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:33:10pm

re: #416 OldLineTexan

I just saw a commercial with cartoon pigs, lego people, and claymation advertising cap & trade as a "cool" way to "put money into the economy" with "new jobs".

As the saying goes: Duuude, I want summa what they bin smokin'.

(Although in truth, I don't think I've ever been that stoned. Or had a fever that high.)

482

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:33:55pm

re: #440 tradewind

We did need to lose Arlen Specter, and Snowe needs to go as well.
While we're down, we may as well have a good purge of RINOS.

Then you'll also have to kiss Susan Collins goodbye.

Can you say 62-38 in the US Senate? I know you can...

483

Joel Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:36:18pm

re: #253 loppyd

Moderates joined Reagan. Not the other way around.

Agreed loppyd. If the GOP was in the hands of hard core conservatives, wtf were they doing with John McCain as their nominee?

484

Joel Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:37:07pm

re: #266 Thanos

Reagan was attacked as a moderate and hollywood liberal by some of the conservatives of his day. Charles Krauthammer was one of them iirc.

You recall wrong.

485

Sosigado Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:37:52pm

re: #482 Salamantis

Then you'll also have to kiss Susan Collins goodbye.

Can you say 62-38 in the US Senate? I know you can...

What difference does it make, now? That shitheel Specter just sealed the deal. Susan Collins can go with him, as far as I'm concerned. She's a pathetic lightweight.

486

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:39:08pm

re: #466 thebigolddog

And with control of both houses and the Presidency how many of those laws did they pass?

Exactly my point. But they still paid the electoral price for their public advocacy by a vocal socon minority.

487

Mike McDaniel Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:44:55pm

I think part of the problem is that the Republican party came under the sway of militant social conservatives. The same sort of tax-and-regulate people that drive the Democrats, but with a different agenda.

It's a position that has little appeal to fiscal and libertarian conservatives.

And it has not helped one iota that the propaganda press smears anyone to the right of Karl Marx.

Nevertheless, the other issue has been that the moderates demand a very high price for their support...then welch on the deal at the last second. You can't make deals without trust.

488

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:49:41pm

Here's the problem as I see it:

Joe Lieberman is a man of unquestionable personal integrity. And he has stood against the tide of his own party and on the side of the angels on the GWOT, at great personal political cost. But if he attempted to switch to the Republican Party, the socons would denounce him as a RINO because he didn't embrace their social agenda, and wouldn't spit on his head if his yarmulke was on fire.

489

meh130 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:51:13pm

" ... it was when we began to emphasize social issues to the detriment of some of our basic tenets as a party that we encountered an electoral backlash."

What a freaking joke. Fiscal conservatism is supposed to be a basic tenant of the Republican party, and Specter clearly stated it was his abandonment of this basic tenant (voting for the stimulus package) which cost him with the Republican base in PA.

Sure, social issues made it difficult for Specter to continue to win the Republican primary, but it was Specter's decision to abandon basic tenants which made it impossible for him to win the 2010 Republican primary.

Snowe is being completely dishonest in her assessment. "Social issues" is a straw man.

490

Sosigado Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:00:21pm

re: #488 Salamantis

But if he attempted to switch to the Republican Party, the socons would denounce him as a RINO because he didn't embrace their social agenda, and wouldn't spit on his head if his yarmulke was on fire.

Methinks your utter disdain may be clouding your judgement, and in turn your choice of symbolism would seem reflect that.

491

meh130 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:02:03pm

God, the arrogance of this crap. "We didn't have to lose ... " as if it is "our" fault. Specter didn't have to sell out on Porkulus. Specter didn't have to put his own personal agenda ahead of everything else. As if we are supposed to pander to these clowns.

These politicians are like creatures in a zoo. They really have no value to planet Earth other than to entertain.

You could pull 535 random names out of the phone book and have a less corrupt, more productive congress.

We need term limits.

492

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:08:12pm

re: #490 Sosigado

Methinks your utter disdain may be clouding your judgement, and in turn your choice of symbolism would seem reflect that.

Okay; you're a socon; would you welcome the socally moderate-to-liberal Joe Lieberman into the Republican Party? Or would you jump on the inevitably ensuing RINO-screaming socon bandwagon?

And since this is hypothetical rather than actual, and you are debating the contention that socon intolerance damages the Republican Party, can I trust your answer?

493

MPH Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:10:24pm

re: #444 Zimriel

I'm sorry, but that seems "off" to me. How could Snowe be obsessed with power? She is one of two underwhelming senators from a Canadian salient, population 1.3 million people, that never should have been cut loose from Massachusetts in the first place. If I sought power on a national level and I was from Maine, I would move - to New York, I suppose. Which is exactly what Barack Obama did, when he found himself wanting power but living in Hawaii.

A penchant for notoriety, fine. Contempt for Republican voters, certainly. But I don't see power-tripping on her list of sins.

I'm from Maine too -- so I know a bit more about Snowe and Collins than most... She was married to a former Maine senator, she widowed, took her husband's senate seat, and latter married our governor (who now is a DC-based mega-lobbyist of course). Like McCain and the other "moderates," Snowe wields an inordinate amount of power within the Senate. Is she not the one who first switched over to support the Obama Porkulous bill?

You'll have to take my word that her behavior behind the closed senate office doors is megalomaniacal (this from multiple sources).

494

rawmuse Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:11:25pm

re: #472 Salamantis

But two of those have disqualified themselves from national electability due to their rabid stands concerning pushing creationism in public schools.

I know. But, that was not the question that Charles asked.
I never said I had the answers to this mess. I don't.

495

Longacre Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:13:03pm

OK, because of time I'm mostly a headline reader, but this is soooo ridiculous... For Snowe to claim agreement with: "...our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty” is ridiculous.

Show me where she, or Specter have demonstrated concern for restraining spending or maximizing individual liberty on anything save abortion.

I'm sorry because I'm sure more people here have said this sooner and more eloquently, but I now live in PA, and the Specter move is very obviously the case of a professional politician taking the surest avenue to keep his job.

To make this (specifically) some pronouncement on the "ideological shift of the party" is a severe stretch. Yeah, Specter's socially liberal, but he's liberal in every other sense too.

Tangentially, I keep hearing this lament that the so-cons are killing the party, but I vehemently disagree. The lackluster performance of the party imho, is simply that they enact governing principals that are "Democrats-lite". In some cases, such as the runaway domestic spending of the previous administration, "lite" doesn't even apply.

496

MPH Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:14:08pm

re: #441 Mich-again

How many do you think the GOP will have left when the so-called RINO's are gone? And who is the authority that gets to decide what makes someone a proper Republican?

I'd rather have a Maine Democrat (who always self-destruct) than Olympia Snowe or Susan Collins (who vote the same way, but keep new and more vibrant voices from rising in the state).

497

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:16:31pm

re: #496 MPH

I'd rather have a Maine Democrat (who always self-destruct) than Olympia Snowe or Susan Collins (who vote the same way, but keep new and more vibrant voices from rising in the state).

I don't care what party they're in; I just want to see politicians elected who will keep government from intruding into either the bedroom or the boardroom.

498

Longacre Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:18:54pm

Forgive me because my standing here doesn't necessarily warrant the column-inches, but I posted this in the Boortz comments yesterday, and suddenly it's pertinent to the original topic of the post:

Now That I Live Here in PA, I’m a bit closer to the action on this one. I found it odd that Specter was running TV ads against a Republican primary challenger, Pat Toomey, last month. Really, how many political ads are on *your* TV now? Specter narrowly beat Toomey in his last primary, and perhaps then only because Pres. G.W. Bush threw his support behind Specter. Keep in mind that was an election year for Bush. (A lot of people didn’t appreciate that, but it’s understandable that a sitting President would back party incumbents in a hotly contested state.)

With that background, I suspect that Specter saw there was no savior (like Bush) coming to the rescue this time; and it’s plainly obvious that he’d have a much easier time returning to Washington as a Democrat. He’d likely have no serious Democrat challenger, and thus wouldn’t have to spend money as he would in the Republican primaries. Not to mention that I’m sure there’s been some “little” incentive offered to report now as a Democrat.

Look, any time I’ve heard Specter personally interviewed, I’ve thought him cogent and reasonable. But his Senate record confirms that he has earned the RINO label. I’ll accord him some respect, because unlike Jeffords, Specter did this prior to the election. (Recall that Jeffords ran with Republican money; was elected as such; then jumped ship to give the Democrats a voting majority, and received perks from the Democrats in terms of seniority as if he had always been a Democrat).
These guys may do it because they feel they are indispensible, or because they think they can be more “effective” with more power (in the majority that’s obviously true), or just because they’ve committed themselves to being lifetime professional politicians, and they’re just trying to keep their job. Perhaps when he started in the Senate 26 years ago, Specter had a servant view of his office. I couldn’t say. My feeling now is that the means – power and influence in the Senate – has become the end.

499

Longacre Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:19:07pm

(Part 2)

Read Specter’s statement when he voted for President Obama’s stimulus bill. “Something has to be done.” He’s simply stating his oft demonstrated view that solutions are best created and enacted from Washington. If he were truly representing his state, he might consider my experience. After all, the family owned small business I work for (in Pennsylvania) has grown from a dozen employees to over 100 now. And they pay pretty well. Heck, they had to pay *very* well to get me to come up here from Georgia. But now, we’re holding the line on many expenses… limiting capital expenses (i.e. buying stuff) and headcount (i.e. jobs)… making sure that we’ll have enough to pay the increased tax bill. Is that helping the economy? I don’t think so.

But these are the rich, after all, who are selfish and not doing their share to help out! Never mind the risks they have taken, or that they’ve hired many well-paid long-term employees (most without college degrees); spent money on items used to build their business; and even – gasp! – spent money on nicer cars and houses than mine (though I’ve heard that’s good for housing contractors and auto workers).

No, Specter and his ilk think it is better policy to take more money from these “rich”, who have made generally good decisions with their money; and give it those who have made lousy decisions with their money: whether it’s the single welfare Mom with 4 kids, a $100 manicure, and a big-screen TV; or General Motors itself.

Heck, it doesn’t matter if it’s better policy or not. What does matter is that there are several hundred thousand people in and around Philly who will vote for more handouts; and more union-based “job security”. That will punch Specter’s ticket back to Washington, and frankly, that’s all that matters. “Democracy” in action.

500

Sosigado Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:19:18pm

re: #492 Salamantis

Personally, I like Joe. I don't agree with much of his social agenda, but his philosophy in general seems to dovetail with mine. I would respectfully submit that "socons" as you would call them, are a little more diverse and tolerant than you give them credit for. This raging creationism debate here has tended to portray the social conservative as a one-trick pony, in my opinion. Again in my opinion, the same goes for painting anyone even remotely to the right of a John McCain as one who might have extremist tendencies. It would seem all the eggs are being carelessly tossed into one basket.

501

MPH Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:22:17pm

re: #497 Salamantis

I don't care what party they're in; I just want to see politicians elected who will keep government from intruding into either the bedroom or the boardroom.

I agree 100% -- but I believe that politicians like Snowe/Collins/Specter are the worst kind of American politician....the types of politicians with such firm locks on power -- and absolutely zero desire to protect and defend free markets (and mostly play lip service to social rights -- always wanting to have it both ways)...The only real desire these people have is to retain and expand power...freedom be damned.

502

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:22:58pm

re: #500 Sosigado

Personally, I like Joe. I don't agree with much of his social agenda, but his philosophy in general seems to dovetail with mine. I would respectfully submit that "socons" as you would call them, are a little more diverse and tolerant than you give them credit for. This raging creationism debate here has tended to portray the social conservative as a one-trick pony, in my opinion. Again in my opinion, the same goes for painting anyone even remotely to the right of a John McCain as one who might have extremist tendencies. It would seem all the eggs are being carelessly tossed into one basket.

Then you would find some agreemnt with this column?

[Link: www.theweek.com...]

503

BLBfootballs Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:26:42pm

I'm sorry, I just do not buy this "I used to be / would be / would like to be / could've been a Republican, but gosh darn it: the party's just moved so far to the extreme right!"

That is factual nonsense. The only issue on which one can assert a claim that the GOP has moved rightwards is Intelligent Design. And it is certainly not the national party that's doing that, but a small set of state and local level pols.

And the funny fact is, the truth is the opposite -- the strength and endurance of scientific theory is dragging religious conservatives away from Young Earth creationism and into accepting a model of the universe in which a Creator allows for evolution to take place. (I note that as someone who finds ID to be non-science and dismal theology). Efforts to get young earth creationism taught in science classes are fewer and far'er between than probably at any time in this country since The Origin of Species was published. That trend will continue and ID (perhaps to its surprise) is a big participant.

But on any other issue, I'm sorry: the GOP has not changed its stripes or its opinions at all. The party is against redefining marriage, against late term abortion, for low taxes, for immigrant assimilation and English fluency, etc. etc.

This "Oh, we didn't have to lose Specter! If only we were wiser and more moderate!..." hand wringing is just silly. Specter left the party because Pennsylvania voters decided they'd had it with a man with so few enduring policy principles--most notably in the area of fiscal sanity. That's nobody's fault but Specter's.

The hot new "GOPextremistrightwingfanatic" talk is a groovy viral media meme that deserves to burn itself out quickly. When Republicans find a spokesman who stands for something and speaks English, it'll help.

504

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:28:34pm

And then there's this:

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

505

thebigolddog Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:38:12pm

re: #486 Salamantis

Their loss had nothing to do with social issues. They lost because they did not live up to their own core principles of fiscal conservatism and small government. They lost becuase they tried to shove open borders down people's throats and refused to enforce the boarders. The lost because they steadfastly refused to fight back against the attacks of the Left and MSM. They lost because oil skyrocketed and the economy collapsed. They lost because Iraq wasn't under control. It had nothing to do with social issues.

I'll remind you that Dems and the media were convinced the Republicans won in 04 because gay marriage was on the ballot in so many states.

506

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:59:28pm

re: #471 Salamantis

Thanks for the link to your post on the other thread. I disagree with your argument in that post, but thanks for the link anyway.

507

Longacre Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:59:50pm

re: #505 thebigolddog

I'll remind you that Dems and the media were convinced the Republicans won in 04 because gay marriage was on the ballot in so many states.

Good point... I had rather forgotten that.

508

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 9:14:01pm

re: #469 Sharmuta

I abhor the idea of parliamentary systems of government.

Look- social issue voters are confused as to the role of government- period. It's not the proper role of government to promote "values"- whether I agree with those values or not is moot. However- returning to fiscal matter could have a big impact on social matter- such as welfare funding undermining the family.

This is what I meant earlier when I said when government gets involved with social issues, it tends to make things worse, not better. The answers to these social problems is not more government.

I think it IS the role of government to promote a certain set of values -- not religious beliefs, but cultural values. The right to private property is one. The right to own one's own labor is another. The right to be protected from assaults on one's person and property from other persons AND from the government itself (without due process of law, without due cause and without compensation for takings deemed necessary to the public good) is another.

"Welfare funding undermining the family" is a values-laden phrase in itself. It presumes that the family is an institution that should not be undermined, and it even implies that there is such a thing as a "canonical" family that should be upheld or encouraged. Seems to me that there's a nexus between social conservatives and fiscal conservatives right there. It sounds a lot like what Rudy Giuliani described when he explained his welfare reforms in New York City.

In our two-party system, the two parties have to make room for internal tensions and dissent. The party that handles that internal tension better and thus allows more competing interests to co-exist generally pulls more votes and wins elections. If the Republican Party really can only accommodate EITHER social conservatives OR fiscal conservatives, it will in fact be a perpetual minority party -- which it was for decades in the mid-20th century. And it is not clear that the faction that finds itself outside the party will naturally weaken and die -- it may end up aligning with some other disaffected faction and overtake the GOP as the primary opposition party. (There is no Constitutional requirement for a two-party system, and the GOP itself was an upstart party that displaced other major parties to assume a leading role.)

509

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 9:22:10pm

re: #463 Salamantis

Which in practice meant not pushing legislation that would alienate either of them - socons OR moderates. And indeed Reagan fed rhetorical red meat to the socon wing, but governed from the sensible center, and didn't try to pass any of their agenda. Which is one reason why he won a second term.

Abstract of article in NY Times, Jan. 23, 1993: Clinton orders reversal of abortion restrictions left by Reagan and Bush.

On the 29th anniversary of Roe vs. Wade, US President Clinton signed five memorandums, including one which repealed the ban on abortion counseling at federally financed clinics. Other issues pertained to lifting the ban on fetal tissue research, easing the policy on abortions in military hospitals, and permitting aid to international family planning organizations involved in abortion related activities. Fetal tissue research is important in the development of treatment for Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's, diabetes, and leukemia. Private payment for abortions in military hospitals will now be possible. UN population programs will now be able to receive funds. Another issue was a request for a review of the ban on the importation of RU-486 for personal use. President Clinton's campaign position on safe and legal abortion was repeated. The restriction on counseling in federal clinics was found to prevent the dissemination of medical information and advice unrestricted by ideological arguments. Crowds estimated at 75,090 people gathered outside the White House to pledge to continue their fight against abortion. A New York Archbishop John O'Connor addressed the "March for Life" group and reaffirmed his position that there was support for not being intimidated, ignored, or treated with contempt. The National Conference of Catholic Bishops' Committee for Prolife Activities stated that Clinton's decision did not fulfill the need for safe, legal, and rare abortion. Senator Jesse Helms stated to a crowd of protesters "shame, shame, shame." Protesters reiterated that their battle was spiritual not ideological.

I think Ronald Reagan actually believed in a lot of the social conservative agenda, and advanced it in Federal policy. However, he didn't do so at the expense of losing fiscal and defense conservatives.

Reagan governed from the sensible right-of-center.

510

stuiec Wed, Apr 29, 2009 9:23:56pm

re: #504 Salamantis

And then there's this:

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Forgive me if I don't accept The Guardian of the UK, one of the world's most left-of-left newspapers, as a reliable arbiter of what US Republicans believe and desire.

511

MPH Wed, Apr 29, 2009 9:36:38pm

This was on Instapundit tonight:

[Link: pajamasmedia.com...]

“The reason for the change in perception is that with fiscal conservatism abandoned, the only distinguishing characteristic of the Republican Party is now social conservatism.” So, tepid as that is, it dominates. Also, there has to be some reason to tell college students that Republicans are uncool. . . .

512

jdog29 Wed, Apr 29, 2009 10:05:39pm

Obama is doing such a disasterous job the Whiggs would win the House and Senate back in 2010 if they were the only alternative. If the R's don't implode it'll all go their way and the Dem's will only have themselves to blame as Obama's unprecendented incompetence paves the way for the Palin/Huckabee ticket to take the Whitehouse in 2012.

Now listen up lizards, I'm not saying this is justice or the way things ought to be, I'm just talking about plain ole reality. If the social cons are not revved up about the so called conservative candidate they will just stay home like they did this past November.

513

coloradobuff Wed, Apr 29, 2009 10:23:15pm

While I agree with the basic message of fiscal conservatism and limited government being the real basis of the GOP that binds us together, Ms. Snowe does not appear to be the fiscal conservative she claims to be, so how can I trust her conclusions or motives here? From where I stand, Specter was a party pariah not because of any socially liberal views he may hold, but because he is anything but fiscally conservative. That is what was getting him in trouble in the runup to the next election.

514

Wendya Wed, Apr 29, 2009 10:48:09pm

re: #155 Kenneth

It was a bit more than that.

1980: [Link: www.presidency.ucsb.edu...]
1984: [Link: www.presidency.ucsb.edu...]

515

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 11:33:02pm

re: #505 thebigolddog

Their loss had nothing to do with social issues. They lost because they did not live up to their own core principles of fiscal conservatism and small government. They lost becuase they tried to shove open borders down people's throats and refused to enforce the boarders. The lost because they steadfastly refused to fight back against the attacks of the Left and MSM. They lost because oil skyrocketed and the economy collapsed. They lost because Iraq wasn't under control. It had nothing to do with social issues.

I'll remind you that Dems and the media were convinced the Republicans won in 04 because gay marriage was on the ballot in so many states.

Wrong era. I'm talking about the passage between Reagan and Clinton.

We're just seeing that tragedy replay itself as farce.

516

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 11:36:40pm

re: #509 stuiec

I think Ronald Reagan actually believed in a lot of the social conservative agenda, and advanced it in Federal policy. However, he didn't do so at the expense of losing fiscal and defense conservatives.

Reagan governed from the sensible right-of-center.

He signed some executive orders that pleased socons, but only tinkered with socon issues on the fringes. He didn't commit to spending his political capital on passing sweeping national laws for them.

517

Salamantis Wed, Apr 29, 2009 11:37:58pm

re: #512 jdog29

Obama is doing such a disasterous job the Whiggs would win the House and Senate back in 2010 if they were the only alternative. If the R's don't implode it'll all go their way and the Dem's will only have themselves to blame as Obama's unprecendented incompetence paves the way for the Palin/Huckabee ticket to take the Whitehouse in 2012.

Now listen up lizards, I'm not saying this is justice or the way things ought to be, I'm just talking about plain ole reality. If the social cons are not revved up about the so called conservative candidate they will just stay home like they did this past November.

Huckabee is the electoral kiss of death for any national ticket.

518

Joel Thu, Apr 30, 2009 5:34:35am

Snowe: 'Ideological Purity Is Not the Ticket Back'

yeah go tell that to Zell Miller, Joe Lieberman and what is left of the Humphrey/Scoop Jackson Democrats. I am so sick of hearing how rigid the GOP is (when they give us a wuss like McCain) and yet the Republicans are supposed to be just like the 'tolerant' Democrats. Bullshit!

519

thebigolddog Thu, Apr 30, 2009 5:36:29am

re: #515 Salamantis

During that period the Republicans took control of both houses of Congress since 1947.

520

Bill Dalasio Thu, Apr 30, 2009 5:45:21am

With all due respect to Sen. Snowe, it seems to me that she is doing a bit of whistling past the graveyard. Mr. Specter did not leave the Republican Party out of some principled stand in opposition to its excesses of social conservatism. He left because it was becomming increasingly clear that he was going to get his keister kicked in the 2010 primaries. And the final straw in that regard was his vote, not on social issues, but on the non-stimulus stimulus bill - precisely one of the core issues Sen. Snowe cites from Pres. Reagan. Lest we forget, Sen. Snowe was one of the other three Republicans to abandon fiscal conservatism in that instance.

521

Salamantis Thu, Apr 30, 2009 7:06:33am

re: #519 thebigolddog

During that period the Republicans took control of both houses of Congress since 1947.

Reagan never had the House, and lost the Senate in the waning years of his 2nd term; neither were regained by Bush Sr. The Contract With America allowed the Repubs to take both of them back during Clinton's first term, but when it became clear after a dozen years that the Repubs weren't living up to it, both bodies reverted to the Dems during the waning years of Bush Jr.'s 2nd term, and it's only gotten worse since. The 110th and 111th Congress are solid Dem, for the first time since 1993 (103rd) and the second time since 1977 and 1979 (95th and 96th), when they and Carter gifted us with 21% annual inflation.

522

Salamantis Thu, Apr 30, 2009 7:10:50am

re: #520 Bill Dalasio

With all due respect to Sen. Snowe, it seems to me that she is doing a bit of whistling past the graveyard. Mr. Specter did not leave the Republican Party out of some principled stand in opposition to its excesses of social conservatism. He left because it was becomming increasingly clear that he was going to get his keister kicked in the 2010 primaries. And the final straw in that regard was his vote, not on social issues, but on the non-stimulus stimulus bill - precisely one of the core issues Sen. Snowe cites from Pres. Reagan. Lest we forget, Sen. Snowe was one of the other three Republicans to abandon fiscal conservatism in that instance.

Isn't it interesting that Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins, the two female Republican senators from Maine who voted for the Porkulus ,have been reamed here, but not the male Republican senator from New Hampshire, Judd Gregg, who also voted for it?

523

Land Shark Thu, Apr 30, 2009 7:18:20am

What Sen. Snowe and the Governor of Utah seem to not realize is that straying from 2 key Conservative values is the reason the Republican party is in trouble. Abandoning fiscal restraint and small government was the principal reason all this has happened. The last 8 years Bush and the GOP have bent over backwards to be "bi-partisan" and work with Democrats. Ted Kennedy's education bill, campaign finance reform, prescription drugs, you name it. It didn't work, didn't it? Instead of attracting Moderates, they drove away part of the Conservative base who no longer saw a difference between the Republicans and the Democrats. And they drove away Independents and Moderates who believe in fiscal restraint and small government. Time to put that failed strategy to rest.

I'm convinced social issues have only a minor role in causing the GOP's problems. From talking to Conservatives and many Independents I know, it's the lack of fiscal restraint and expansion of government that happened during the last 8 years that's their biggest beef with the GOP. If the Republicans return to "ideological purity" on the issues of fiscal restraint and small government, establishing themselves as a clear alternative to the spend like crazy regime in power now, they can win. It's the only way they have a shot to win.

524

medaura18586 Thu, Apr 30, 2009 7:19:34am

re: #11 Sharmuta

I agree. I think we should focus on fiscal issues and restricting government power (like the Balanced Budget Amendment), but she's not the advocate for that position considering her TARP vote.

TARP? What about her vote on the stimulus and the budget?

525

Sharmuta Thu, Apr 30, 2009 7:40:12am

re: #508 stuiec

I think it IS the role of government to promote a certain set of values -- not religious beliefs, but cultural values. The right to private property is one. The right to own one's own labor is another. The right to be protected from assaults on one's person and property from other persons AND from the government itself (without due process of law, without due cause and without compensation for takings deemed necessary to the public good) is another.

Those aren't values- those are our rights! And it is not government's job to promote them but it is our job to maintain them. You could say it's our government's job to protect them from foreign invasion, but it's certainly not their job to promote them as they are our rights- we already have them.

526

Sharmuta Thu, Apr 30, 2009 7:42:38am

re: #523 Land Shark

I think what you're missing is that returning to fiscal conservative principals is exactly what Huntsman and Snowe are saying the GOP needs to do.

527

Land Shark Thu, Apr 30, 2009 8:11:50am

re: #526 Sharmuta

Yes, you're correct, she is saying that. And it would be nice if she practiced what she's preaching.

But she's also saying it was the emphasis on social issues that played a major role in the GOP's problems. But the GOP has always emphasized socially conservative stands. Even when they were riding high controlling the White House and Congress. It was the shift away from fiscal restraint and smaller government that did it. Reagan never soft pedaled his socially conservative stands, but since he remained a strong fiscal conservative, he still attracted Independents and Moderates to vote for him, it was what built up the now defunct "Reagan Democrat" wing of the Conservative movement.

528

Salamantis Thu, Apr 30, 2009 8:25:15am

re: #527 Land Shark

Yes, you're correct, she is saying that. And it would be nice if she practiced what she's preaching.

But she's also saying it was the emphasis on social issues that played a major role in the GOP's problems. But the GOP has always emphasized socially conservative stands. Even when they were riding high controlling the White House and Congress. It was the shift away from fiscal restraint and smaller government that did it. Reagan never soft pedaled his socially conservative stands, but since he remained a strong fiscal conservative, he still attracted Independents and Moderates to vote for him, it was what built up the now defunct "Reagan Democrat" wing of the Conservative movement.

What this entails is that the GOP's best shot at returning from the electoral wildreness is not to continue to draw sharp social agenda distinctions, but instead to return to drawing the sharp fiscal discipline distinctions they previously drew - and practice them as well as preach them.

529

Land Shark Thu, Apr 30, 2009 8:37:06am

re: #528 Salamantis

I wholeheartedly agree with the second part of your post, that they must return to drawing the sharp fiscal discipline distinctions and practicing them as well. It's what I've been saying all along.

My contention is that drawing sharp social agenda distinctions didn't hurt them because if you look at the last few decades they have always drawn them. The GOP has always been seen as a socially conservative party. Abandoning fiscal restraint during W's tenure is what got them stomped on in the '06 and '08 elections.

530

thebigolddog Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:01:17am

re: #521 Salamantis

You just made my point. Social issues were not the problem. It was not living up to their own principles that caused them to lose their power.

531

Bill Dalasio Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:25:28am

re: #522 Salamantis

Except, of course, Judd Gregg didn't vote for the stimulus (nor, unlike Snowe, Collins, and Specter, to close debate). He recused himself because he saw a conflict of interest. In fact, he withdrew his cabinet nomination based on the stimulus.

532

Bill Dalasio Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:29:37am

re: #526 Sharmuta

And it's more than a little difficult to buy this sort of argument from Sen. Snowe when she so quickly abandoned any pretense of fiscal conservatism with the stimulus bill.

533

h0mi Thu, Apr 30, 2009 4:51:31pm

it was when we began to emphasize social issues to the detriment of some of our basic tenets as a party that we encountered an electoral backlash.

First, let me start off by saying that I am no longer a Republican (which allows me to vote in Democratic primaries here in California, which for the time being are the "general election" statewide) and I'm socially libertarian (not merely liberal) and on economics/fiscal issues I am conservative/libertarian. I disagree with conservatives on abortion, gay marriage & on other such issues, but this concept that these issues are being "emphasized" strikes me as odd. The GOP has not lurched to the right; 25 years ago, "Gay civil unions" was a very radical idea that only hard core leftists would've supproted. Today all but a small portion of hardcore homophobes would vigorously oppose it. (Gay marriage is a different issue altogether). Abortion? 25 years ago the GOP was pushing for a total ban on abortion, a "Life Amendment"; today the GOP struggles to get causing the death of a fetus that wasn't abortion related called "murder", and pushes so called "partial birth abortion" bans.

In looking at Specter, he wasn't shoved out by religious conservatives; the Club for Growth is about taxes and fiscal conservatism... something that most republicans can at least try to agree upon and differentiate themselves from democrats... and yet this is always the first thing thrown under the bus. Specter wasn't shoved out of the GOP because of his stance on abortion.

534

stuiec Thu, Apr 30, 2009 7:04:35pm

re: #517 Salamantis

Huckabee is the electoral kiss of death for any national ticket.

Oh, I agree.

But then, so was John McCain.

535

stuiec Thu, Apr 30, 2009 7:37:37pm

re: #525 Sharmuta

Those aren't values- those are our rights! And it is not government's job to promote them but it is our job to maintain them. You could say it's our government's job to protect them from foreign invasion, but it's certainly not their job to promote them as they are our rights- we already have them.

First: you better wonder about how secure our rights are. We call them rights and believe them to be rights because our Declaration of Independence before expressed the notion that our rights spring from Divine Providence, and not from the whims of Men. Currently, we have a President who's toyed with the idea that our rights were actually created in the Constitution -- as opposed to the Constitution being written to protect our Divinely-granted rights: Obama and the Constitution.

So apparently there are those whose values don't include recognizing our rights as our human inheritance, but rather whose values include rearranging and inserting and deleting rights to reflect their values about how society should be structured and should function.

Second, you didn't address my observation about "welfare undermining the family." How do you deal with the question of welfare's impact on families if you don't make normative value judgments about welfare and about what a family is and should look like?

536

Salamantis Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:00:34pm

re: #533 h0mi

First, let me start off by saying that I am no longer a Republican (which allows me to vote in Democratic primaries here in California, which for the time being are the "general election" statewide) and I'm socially libertarian (not merely liberal) and on economics/fiscal issues I am conservative/libertarian. I disagree with conservatives on abortion, gay marriage & on other such issues, but this concept that these issues are being "emphasized" strikes me as odd. The GOP has not lurched to the right; 25 years ago, "Gay civil unions" was a very radical idea that only hard core leftists would've supproted. Today all but a small portion of hardcore homophobes would vigorously oppose it. (Gay marriage is a different issue altogether). Abortion? 25 years ago the GOP was pushing for a total ban on abortion, a "Life Amendment"; today the GOP struggles to get causing the death of a fetus that wasn't abortion related called "murder", and pushes so called "partial birth abortion" bans.

In looking at Specter, he wasn't shoved out by religious conservatives; the Club for Growth is about taxes and fiscal conservatism... something that most republicans can at least try to agree upon and differentiate themselves from democrats... and yet this is always the first thing thrown under the bus. Specter wasn't shoved out of the GOP because of his stance on abortion.

You do point out an interesting fact; the electorate's stance on many of these social issues has changed, and continues to change, while the Republican Party's stance on them has not. This relentlessly expanding social-agenda disconnect between the party and the people will cost the Republican party more and more votes as time goes on.

537

Bill Dalasio Fri, May 1, 2009 6:49:33am

re: #136 Charles

Wow, a hypocritical politician! Never seen one of those before.

/dripping

Mr. Johnson,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it's not just a matter of hypocisy. No small portion of the social conservatives Sen. Snowe would have us remove from the party (or at least its leadership) have records on fiscal restraint orders of magnitude better than hers on precisely the issue she's telling us should be front and center.

538

RightKlik Sat, May 2, 2009 3:20:14pm

Snowe believes in fiscal restraint? She could have fooled me.

539

Salamantis Sat, May 2, 2009 4:14:39pm

re: #537 Bill Dalasio

Mr. Johnson,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it's not just a matter of hypocisy. No small portion of the social conservatives Sen. Snowe would have us remove from the party (or at least its leadership) have records on fiscal restraint orders of magnitude better than hers on precisely the issue she's telling us should be front and center.

And Mussolini made the trains run on time. Not a reason for Italians to retain him in power.

A record of fiscal restraint will not compensate or provide a pass in the minds of the moderate, centrist, or independent electorate for socon positions advocating blanket bans on abortions, opposing gay civil unions, or advocating the teaching of creationism/ID in public schools.

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