Profile of a Pro-America Muslim Leader

US News • Views: 4,208

At the New York Times, Anne Barnard has an excellent profile of the man who’s been relentlessly, dishonestly demonized by Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, and the Fox News Bigot Brigade: Feisal Abdul Rauf’s Balancing Act in Mosque Furor.

Not everyone in the Cairo lecture hall last February was buying the imam Feisal Abdul Rauf’s message. As he talked of reconciliation between America and Middle Eastern Muslims — his voice soft, almost New Agey — some questioners were so suspicious that he felt the need to declare that he was not an American agent.

Muslims need to understand and soothe Americans who fear them, the imam said; they should be conciliatory, not judgmental, toward the West and Israel.

But one young Egyptian asked: Wasn’t the United States financing the speaking tour that had brought the imam to Cairo because his message conveniently echoed United States interests?

“I’m not an agent from any government, even if some of you may not believe it,” the imam replied. “I’m not. I’m a peacemaker.” …

In recent weeks, Mr. Abdul Rauf has barely been heard from as a national political debate explodes over his dream project, including, somewhere in its planned 15 stories, a mosque. Opponents have called his project an act of insensitivity, even a monument to terrorism.

In his absence — he is now on another Middle East speaking tour sponsored by the State Department — a host of allegations have been floated: that he supports terrorism; that his father, who worked at the behest of the Egyptian government, was a militant; that his publicly expressed views mask stealth extremism. Some charges, the available record suggests, are unsupported. Some are simplifications of his ideas. In any case, calling him a jihadist appears even less credible than calling him a United States agent.

Read the whole thing. The bigots behind the anti-mosque movement have been shamelessly distorting and lying about Imam Rauf’s pro-America, anti-jihad record.

And I’m certain the “Ground Zero Mosque” bad craziness outbreak is making it even more difficult — if not impossible — for Imam Rauf to promote American ideals to Islamic audiences, when so many Americans have apparently lost sight of those ideals themselves.

Jump to bottom

580 comments
1 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:50:47am

B-b-but, Robert Spencer says he is only against “political Islam”.

I guess that includes Muslims who supported the Bush administration.

2 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:51:01am

This really shows that the people who have claimed that they just want Moderate Muslims to speak up don’t, actually, want moderate Muslims to speak up. They refuse to believe in the concept of moderate Muslims, in the end.

Pathetic.

3 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:53:03am

re: #2 Obdicut

This really shows that the people who have claimed that they just want Moderate Muslims to speak up don’t, actually, want moderate Muslims to speak up. They refuse to believe in the concept of moderate Muslims, in the end.

Pathetic.

Yeah, the “moderate Muslim” demand has certainly been missing lately. Foiled again!

4 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:59:08am
Muslims need to understand and soothe Americans who fear them, the imam said


I’m not sure soothing our feelings is the most important part of the deal.

5 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 11:59:53am

re: #4 tradewind

I’m not sure soothing our feelings is the most important part of the deal.

What is the most important part of the deal, Trade?

6 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:00:43pm

re: #3 Stanley Sea
The moderate muslim, as a group is what is largely missing.
They are here, so they should speak up. Forcefully, and without equivocation.
That hasn’t happened. In all seriousness, I really do not know why.

7 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:01:05pm

re: #5 Obdicut
See next post.

8 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:01:07pm

It’s not as if he was a go to guy from the Bush Administration.

Oh wait. He was.

9 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:01:31pm

re: #6 tradewind

This dude is a moderate Muslim, speaking up, attempting to build a community center, and is receiving nothing but bigotry for his efforts.

10 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:02:05pm

re: #4 tradewind

I’m not sure soothing our feelings is the most important part of the deal.

‘Feelings’ is mostly what the anti-mosque movement is talking about.

11 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:02:43pm

For those who were wondering about Wild Bill’s protest sign.
/He looks normal

12 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:02:52pm

re: #6 tradewind

The moderate muslim, as a group is what is largely missing.
They are here, so they should speak up. Forcefully, and without equivocation.
That hasn’t happened. In all seriousness, I really do not know why.

And you’re posting this in a thread about that very topic, showing a prominent Muslim leader who not only speaks up, but travels overseas to promote the US.

It would be ironic if it weren’t sad.

13 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:03:14pm

re: #6 tradewind

The moderate muslim, as a group is what is largely missing.
They are here, so they should speak up. Forcefully, and without equivocation.
That hasn’t happened. In all seriousness, I really do not know why.

Maybe because every time one does, he gets “exposed” as an adherent of - gasp! - Islam by Robert Spencer. In whose books the only good Muslim is an apostate Muslim.

14 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:03:37pm

re: #6 tradewind

The moderate muslim, as a group is what is largely missing.
They are here, so they should speak up. Forcefully, and without equivocation.
That hasn’t happened. In all seriousness, I really do not know why.

Thanks so much for my needed snap back to reality.

such a joke

15 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:04:04pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

For those who were wondering about Wild Bill’s protest sign.
/He looks normal

My goodness. The poster boy of the anti-Muslim movement.

16 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:04:25pm

re: #9 Obdicut
On the contrary…. he’s received three,( so far ) , all-expense-paid world tours to win the hearts and minds of muslims for America.
How’s that worked so far?

17 spikester  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:04:52pm

re: #3 Stanley Sea

the most truly “moderate Muslims” Ive met were in “Muslim” countrys
once one gets over the over the “you ain’t from around here are you” thing it becomes quite evident that we are not so far removed as one might think reading Hot air comment or even comments posted here
interestingly the Muslims Ive met that had the most ‘tude’ are here in the Stated

18 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:05:14pm

re: #16 tradewind

On the contrary… he’s received three,( so far ) , all-expense-paid world tours to win the hearts and minds of muslims for America.
How’s that worked so far?

You really are an idiot, you know that?

19 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:05:31pm

re: #16 tradewind

This is the fucking stupidest talking point. You’re seriously upset at this guy for not single-handedly winning over all Muslims worldwide?

Give me a fucking break.

20 justaminute  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:05:31pm

Well the moderate Muslims in the rest of the US are getting pretty bitter about this. My husband’s face book page is filling up with protests. My daughter is receiving stuff from kids from Iran who have been in the Green movement who are really hacked off with us now. Their making music video’s with Farsi rappers which are not very flattering to us.

21 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:05:52pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

For those who were wondering about Wild Bill’s protest sign.
/He looks normal

Looks like Heath Ledger in some movie role. wow what a character.

22 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:05:55pm

this whole story is incredibly sad to me. the folks building the mosque have the right to do it. that right is protected by law. but at this point, I wouldn’t blame them if they threw up their hands and said “screw it,” this is not worth the effort. But if that happens, guess who wins and who loses? the winners will be the extremists, who can point to those “intolerant Americans” who wouldn’t let muslims build their mosque. And for once, the extremists would be right. How f’d up is that.

23 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:06:15pm

re: #12 Charles
He’s one man. I am speaking of movements among groups of American muslims that are visible, vocal, and get attention.
There is a lot more that could be done.

24 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:06:25pm

re: #20 justaminute

Oh, right. Yeah, forget that pro-US sentiment in the youth in Iran. That’s gone now.

Good job, GOP! Good job, fear-mongers and douchebags!

25 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:07:13pm

re: #18 Cato the Elder
Resorting to the ad hominem ?
So lazy.

26 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:07:30pm

re: #23 tradewind

He’s one man. I am speaking of movements among groups of American muslims that are visible, vocal, and get attention.
There is a lot more that could be done.

I just figured it out: you are Windsagio’s rightwing left brain.

27 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:07:46pm

re: #6 tradewind

The moderate muslim, as a group is what is largely missing.
They are here, so they should speak up. Forcefully, and without equivocation.
That hasn’t happened. In all seriousness, I really do not know why.

I get the feeling from reading the article that he’s going for a non-political form of religion. I think that’s a perfectly valid approach.

28 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:07:47pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

For those who were wondering about Wild Bill’s protest sign.
/He looks normal

Wow. I love that photo. It really is everything utterly low class, ignorant, stupid and ugly about America in one little photo.

And people wonder why we make fun of rednecks…

He gets extra points for the arrogance that makes him think his insipid sign is somehow clever.

29 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:09:04pm

re: #19 Obdicut
I’m not seriously upset at this guy at all.
Don’t let it upset you.

30 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:09:22pm

re: #25 tradewind

Resorting to the ad hominem ?
So lazy.


There’s not much left to do with you, Trade. No convincing. No rational discussion.

You are a doodyhead.

31 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:09:23pm

Hi Ludwig! Welcome back. Did you get my email?

32 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:09:43pm

re: #27 Killgore Trout

I get the feeling from reading the article that he’s going for a non-political form of religion. I think that’s a perfectly valid approach.

KT, that’s a concept from the Constitution.

Don’t expect any wingnuts to recognize it.

33 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:10:25pm

re: #31 Cato the Elder

Hi Ludwig! Welcome back. Did you get my email?

I didn’t check.

Will do now., but I can’t be on long. I have a bunch of plans with Miss. S. today.

34 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:10:49pm

re: #28 LudwigVanQuixote

That guy is a real life Ralph Steadman caricature.

35 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:11:11pm

re: #27 Killgore Trout
If he’s going for a non-political form, he’s certainly using major political connections to do it.
Did you mean a non-confrontational form? Because I would agree with that.

36 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:11:47pm

re: #30 JasonA
A double ad-hom!
Step in line with Cato.

37 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:11:59pm

re: #31 Cato the Elder

Hi Ludwig! Welcome back. Did you get my email?

I read your mail. I will get right on it.

38 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:13:09pm

re: #6 tradewind

The moderate muslim, as a group is what is largely missing.
They are here, so they should speak up. Forcefully, and without equivocation.
That hasn’t happened. In all seriousness, I really do not know why.

This man is speaking up. I read this profile earlier today.

And there are moderate Muslims, all over, just quietly going to work, coming home to the family, celebrating holidays with families, visiting with friends …

What is it, exactly, you want them to do, other than the regular stuff we all do?

39 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:13:42pm

re: #25 tradewind

Resorting to the ad hominem ?
So lazy.

“We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.”

You’re hopeless.

40 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:13:45pm

re: #24 Obdicut

Good job, GOP!


That’s right…. it was the Republican president who averted his eyes during their attempted protests.
Oh wait.

41 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:13:57pm

re: #13 Cato the Elder

Or a dead one.

42 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:14:18pm

re: #15 Charles

My goodness. The poster boy of the anti-Muslim movement.

And speaking of poster boys for delusional and dangerous twits… I really hope you make a thread out of Gus’s excellent Monckton post.

43 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:15:28pm

re: #40 tradewind

What the hell are you talking about?

Do you realize how desperate you seem?

44 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:15:47pm

re: #16 tradewind

Well your boy Bush seemed to like him enough to send him on such trips. Why don’t you tell me your opinion of that?

45 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:16:10pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

For those who were wondering about Wild Bill’s protest sign.
/He looks normal

And doesn’t it just say it all that this sign should be brandished by a man who has adorned himself in the flag of treason-in-defense-of-slavery.

46 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:16:11pm

re: #43 Obdicut

I’m thinking trade is well into the bagua trip by now.

Already signed out, just sticking around to get some knife-wounds in.

47 spikester  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:17:36pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

normal if you’er bunk mate is Bubba and you’er the bitch and you live in the big house

that man person should not be used an the baseline for anything

48 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:18:02pm

re: #40 tradewind

That’s right… it was the Republican president who averted his eyes during their attempted protests.
Oh wait.

Fuck! Would you follow the damn thread? He’s blaming the GOP and the right for ginning up this mosque nonsense. This is what’s pissing off the Iranians who have liked us until now.

49 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:18:08pm

re: #47 spikester

What an unnecessarily unpleasant image.

50 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:18:12pm

It’s the perfect example of Republicans paying lip service to the “I wish there were some moderates out there” meme and then not listening when they appear.

And how many Jews felt comfy next to Mr. Confederate Flag Man.

51 spikester  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:18:47pm

re: #49 Obdicut

you mean the pic right?

52 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:19:16pm

re: #48 JasonA

Fuck! Would you follow the damn thread? He’s blaming the GOP and the right for ginning up this mosque nonsense. This is what’s pissing off the Iranians who have liked us until now.

No, no our actions have no consequences!

You might as well say that they weren’t annoyed with us when we overthrew their democratically elected government!

53 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:19:47pm

re: #50 marjoriemoon

Hey now, that one speaker was totally a Jew! And a woman, too!

54 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:19:52pm

re: #50 marjoriemoon

It’s the perfect example of Republicans paying lip service to the “I wish there were some moderates out there” meme and then not listening when they appear.

And how many Jews felt comfy next to Mr. Confederate Flag Man.

Well think about it, how many sane anyone would feel comfy next to that guy.

Though to be fair, I hope he meets some very large and very vocal Black folks, who will express their opinions about his fashion sense, after all, they have first dibs on that one.

55 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:20:09pm
56 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:20:12pm

re: #51 spikester

you mean the pic right?

No, I mean your casual reference to prison rape.

57 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:20:21pm

re: #53 windsagio

Hey now, that one speaker was totally a Jew! And a woman, too!

Yea, he’s a real Zionist he is.

58 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:20:22pm

re: #53 windsagio

Hey now, that one speaker was totally a Jew! And a woman, too!

She’s talking about a KT post. You are falling behind…

59 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:21:03pm

re: #38 reine.de.tout

And there are moderate Muslims, all over, just quietly going to work, coming home to the family, celebrating holidays with families, visiting with friends . .

I agree completely, and those are, actually, the muslims I know in my everyday life. They are professional people who are also supremely apolitical. Just want to live their lives.
What I am talking about is the response that never seems to come when there is an example of islamic hatred for America….for example, Dr. Hasan’s rampage. Where were the organized expressions of outrage, letters to the editor, etc?
Before 9-11, these disclaimers would not have been expected or needed. But it happened, and there is a lot that could be done to put it behind us that I don’t believe is being done.
I’m done with this. And please…any more expressions regarding my person should please be more creative than ’ you’re an idiot ’ or ’ a doodyhead ‘.

60 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:21:18pm

re: #58 LudwigVanQuixote

Oh I know. I’m just making fun of the lady in the video posted way upthread. I still find her insistance that everyone know those two things hilarious for some reason. Hilarious and nonsensical.

61 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:21:52pm

re: #59 tradewind

Some of your best friends are Muslims!

62 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:22:00pm

Why is Rauf MIA? Shouldn’t he be out front and centre in this whole debate?

63 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:22:23pm

Imam Rauf must be doing something right since he’s pissing off so many people on both sides.

64 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:22:42pm

re: #44 LudwigVanQuixote
Not that you’re at all interested, but I think it was a feel-good gesture on his part, which was probably not cost-effective and produced no discernible results.

65 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:22:43pm

re: #62 Spare O’Lake

Why is Rauf MIA? Shouldn’t he be out front and centre in this whole debate?

He’s hiding something.

66 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:22:54pm

re: #59 tradewind

Yes, a large gathering of Muslims would be seen as such a positive thing. *rollseyes*

67 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:22:59pm

re: #63 Romantic Heretic

Mostly on one side really, and yeah ‘existing’ is ‘doing something right’, I agree >>

68 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:23:36pm

re: #62 Spare O’Lake

Why is Rauf MIA? Shouldn’t he be out front and centre in this whole debate?

Because he’s overseas, serving our government. At the request of our State Department.

69 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:23:41pm

re: #61 windsagio
There you go again.
Really, the guys in Foggy Bottom need that decoder reader thing-y you use.

70 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:24:06pm
71 spikester  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:24:13pm

re: #56 Obdicut

what if they loved each other?
wow the image,,,,,your right…
get….it…out…of my…..head

72 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:24:27pm

re: #66 JasonA
Depending on the message?
It certainly could be.
Have some faith.

73 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:24:40pm

re: #69 tradewind

It was an okay line when Reagan used it, Palin killed it, now you’re just hitting it on the head with a shovel.

Trust me, it’s already dead!

74 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:24:55pm

re: #59 tradewind
Moderate Muslims can express outrage and write letters to the editor, but they can’t make the general public take notice. Especially when so much static is being thrown up by fear profiteers like Spencer and Geller.
As CL has linked:

Google results for muslims denounce condemn terrorism
75 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:25:03pm

re: #72 tradewind

Say a large gathering like, maybe, building a community center in Manhattan.

You’re not convincing anyone.

76 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:25:05pm

re: #68 sagehen

Because he’s overseas, serving our government. At the request of our State Department.

Bullshit. He’s laying low. It’s a strategy.

77 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:25:48pm

re: #72 tradewind

Depending on the message?
It certainly could be.
Have some faith.

Heh. They’ll certainly get some when the Evangelical Christians work the crowd trying to convert them.

78 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:25:57pm

re: #66 JasonA

Yes, a large gathering of Muslims would be seen as such a positive thing. *rollseyes*

Oooh!! How about Muslims gathering just over the state line from DC in that national park, in support of the 2nd Amendment, talking about what actions they’ll need to take if they don’t like something Congress does!!

They should be well-armed. And have people read from an exact transcript of those tea partier speeches from April.

That will go over well.

79 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:26:07pm

re: #76 Spare O’Lake

Bullshit. He’s laying low. It’s a strategy.

What do you mean ‘bullshit’?

What is the ‘strategy’, Spare, and how do you have special knowledge that allows you to figure it out?

80 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:26:10pm

Google results for muslims condemn nidal hasan

81 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:26:41pm

re: #78 sagehen

Oooh!! How about Muslims gathering just over the state line from DC in that national park, in support of the 2nd Amendment, talking about what actions they’ll need to take if they don’t like something Congress does!!

They should be well-armed. And have people read from an exact transcript of those tea partier speeches from April.

That will go over well.

I like you.

82 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:26:50pm

re: #79 Obdicut

What do you mean ‘bullshit’?

What is the ‘strategy’, Spare, and how do you have special knowledge that allows you to figure it out?

Robert Spencer talks to him in his dreams.

83 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:26:52pm

re: #80 CuriousLurker

Its good of you to try, but I don’t think they’re really listening >>

84 Irenicum  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:27:02pm

I see we still have MDS (Muslim Derangement Syndrome) adherents among us. Ugh.

85 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:27:19pm

re: #82 PT Barnum

Robert Spencer talks to him in his dreams.

[Link: instantrimshot.com…]

86 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:27:32pm

re: #79 Obdicut

What do you mean ‘bullshit’?

What is the ‘strategy’, Spare, and how do you have special knowledge that allows you to figure it out?

Well, I did hear the whispers of Rauf being at some lake in Canada, getting building permits.

87 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:28:01pm

re: #83 windsagio

Its good of you to try, but I don’t think they’re really listening >>

Of course they’re not. But other people may be silently watching.

88 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:28:05pm

re: #86 Stanley Sea

THE BASTARD! IS NO-ONE SAFE FROM INDOOR POOLS?!

89 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:28:15pm

re: #87 CuriousLurker

Of course they’re not. But other people may be silently watching.

Touche’ :)

90 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:29:04pm

re: #87 CuriousLurker

Of course they’re not. But other people may be silently watching.

They might even be lurking, in a curious manner.

91 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:29:28pm

re: #74 jaunte

Moderate Muslims can express outrage and write letters to the editor, but they can’t make the general public take notice. Especially when so much static is being thrown up by fear profiteers like Spencer and Geller.
As CL has linked:

Those “oh-so-much-more-righteous-than-you” citizens, like Geller, Spencer and Mr. Confederate Flag Creep don’t want to hear that. They have their agenda and they’re stickin to it.

(but you knew that heh)

92 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:30:04pm

re: #76 Spare O’Lake

Bullshit. He’s laying low. It’s a strategy.

He’s been on a 3 week trip. I expect to hear from him when he returns.

93 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:30:09pm

re: #90 Obdicut

They might even be lurking, in a curious manner.

Exactly.

94 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:30:20pm

I find it amazing that proponents of the mosque and defenders of Rauf are not even a bit curious about his absence during this turbulence. The man is extremely articulate, so why is he not here front and centre, appearing on all the media outlets to personally counter the vitriol?
I suspect it’s a calculated strategy by his folks.

95 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:31:04pm

re: #91 marjoriemoon

Those “oh-so-much-more-righteous-than-you” citizens, like Geller, Spencer and Mr. Confederate Flag Creep don’t want to hear that. They have their agenda and they’re stickin to it.

(but you knew that heh)

For that crowd, all muslims are terrorists in the making. Never mind that terrorism is a political tactic, not a religious belief.

96 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:31:04pm

re: #94 Spare O’Lake

And what is this strategy, Spare? Explain your ‘logic’.

97 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:31:13pm

re: #80 CuriousLurker

Google results for muslims condemn nidal hasan

Good afternoon :) good to see you!

98 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:31:16pm

re: #44 LudwigVanQuixote

Well your boy Bush seemed to like him enough to send him on such trips. Why don’t you tell me your opinion of that?

Tradewind has “opinions” about Islam the way certain other blustery posters here do about Israel.

99 swamprat  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:31:30pm

Any comments on those Muslims who are condemning the mosque?

They fall outside of the stereotypes presented by both sides.

100 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:31:33pm

re: #94 Spare O’Lake

At risk of being rude, you continually amaze me with your dishonest hackery.

101 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:31:46pm

If Rauf is the reformer that Islam needs, then I’m for that.

Maybe he’s the real guy that has been hiding in the well.

Otherwise, do not try to make a fool out of my inner barbarian.

But I really hope Rauf can actually reform and Americanize his system.

102 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:32:05pm

re: #96 Obdicut

And what is this strategy, Spare? Explain your ‘logic’.

he has none.

103 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:32:17pm

re: #79 Obdicut

What do you mean ‘bullshit’?

What is the ‘strategy’, Spare, and how do you have special knowledge that allows you to figure it out?

No special knowledge, dude. Just the willingness to remain skeptical.

104 [deleted]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:33:23pm
105 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:33:24pm

re: #99 swamprat

Any comments on those Muslims who are condemning the mosque?

They fall outside of the stereotypes presented by both sides.

My opinion? I think fear plays a role in it. It’s easier to just say “Hey, let’s do this somewhere else.” It’s just my gut feeling, though. I haven’t thought it through all that much.

106 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:33:43pm

re: #103 Spare O’Lake

No special knowledge, dude. Just the willingness to remain skeptical.

Skeptical about what? Your position makes no sense. The only thing your position does is attempt to place suspicion and blame on him.

You are utterly transparent.

107 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:33:46pm

Anyone read the Frank Rich opinion piece on this anti Islam nonsense?

[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

108 b_sharp  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:33:51pm

re: #46 windsagio

I’m thinking trade is well into the bagua trip by now.

Already signed out, just sticking around to get some knife-wounds in.

Who cleans up the blood?

109 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:34:05pm

re: #99 swamprat

I’d guess they’d prefer to avoid confrontation with a mob.

110 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:34:24pm

I think what the Muslim haters will never understand is that the phrase “one bad apple spoils the whole bunch” doesn’t apply to groups of people.

There are a lot of good Muslims out there and I’m sure a few bad ones.

There are a lot of good Christians out there and I’m sure a few bad ones as well.

Just because a few bad folks in one group have done some dispicable things doesn’t mean the rest of the group will follow suit. It appears that Mr. Rauf is a champion of a brand of Islam that wants to coexist peaceably with the rest of society. I say give him the benefit of the doubt and quit painting all Muslims with such a broad brush.

I honestly wish people wouldn’t be so quick to pass judgement.

111 swamprat  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:34:38pm

re: #103 Spare O’Lake

No special knowledge, dude. Just the willingness to remain skeptical.


Or, as I call it;

“narrow-eyed suspicion”

112 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:34:48pm

re: #106 Obdicut

Skeptical about what? Your position makes no sense. The only thing your position does is attempt to place suspicion and blame on him.

You are utterly transparent.

The whole world is transparent to you, isn’t it?

113 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:35:14pm

re: #107 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Anyone read the Frank Rich opinion piece on this anti Islam nonsense?

[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

Excellent piece, yes.

114 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:35:15pm

re: #110 Jetpilot1101

I think what the Muslim haters will never understand is that the phrase “one bad apple spoils the whole bunch” doesn’t apply to groups of people.

There are a lot of good Muslims out there and I’m sure a few bad ones.

There are a lot of good Christians out there and I’m sure a few bad ones as well.

Just because a few bad folks in one group have done some dispicable things doesn’t mean the rest of the group will follow suit. It appears that Mr. Rauf is a champion of a brand of Islam that wants to coexist peaceably with the rest of society. I say give him the benefit of the doubt and quit painting all Muslims with such a broad brush.

I honestly wish people wouldn’t be so quick to pass judgement.

I think American’s forget there is a billion of them.

115 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:35:18pm

re: #108 b_sharp

I imagine charles pays someone to take care of it >>

116 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:35:46pm

re: #74 jaunte
I realize it’s difficult for us here to fathom, but the vast, vast majority of Americans have never even heard of Spencer, Geller, etc.

117 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:35:48pm

re: #112 Spare O’Lake

The whole world is transparent to you, isn’t it?

Nope. But in a thread about what a moderate, pro-american guy Rauf is, your stance is that he must be up to something. You can’t at all say what, but he must be! He must!

Transparent.

118 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:36:13pm

I got a young black muslim in my division. Only difference between us is that he doesn’t eat bacon in his omelets underway.

119 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:36:30pm

re: #93 CuriousLurker

Exactly.

Too bad the second link in the Nidal Hasan list is one from Jihad Watch. Just sayin’.

120 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:36:33pm

re: #117 Obdicut

Nope. But in a thread about what a moderate, pro-american guy Rauf is, your stance is that he must be up to something. You can’t at all say what, but he must be! He must!

Transparent.

Hostility to a logical query is a symptom of kool-aid poisoning.

121 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:36:41pm

I did get him to eat a pork rind once though. He liked it.

122 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:36:51pm

BBL

123 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:36:59pm

re: #99 swamprat

Any comments on those Muslims who are condemning the mosque?

They fall outside of the stereotypes presented by both sides.

I have not seen Muslims “condemning the mosque.” What I have seen are a few articles about Muslims who question the wisdom of building it there, especially with the level of animosity directed against it.

But I seriously doubt these few people are representative of most Muslims’ views on the issue.

124 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:37:09pm

re: #116 tradewind

True, but the ideas they set in motion have a way of rippling out to people who have no idea who stated them.

125 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:37:10pm

re: #120 Spare O’Lake

Hostility to a logical query is a symptom of kool-aid poisoning.

What is your inquiry, Spare?

126 TedStriker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:37:13pm

re: #2 Obdicut

This really shows that the people who have claimed that they just want Moderate Muslims to speak up don’t, actually, want moderate Muslims to speak up. They refuse to believe in the concept of moderate Muslims, in the end.

Pathetic.

The “Christian” bigots and xenophobes never wanted to hear any “moderate Muslims” to pipe up or show their faces in the public spotlight.

That’s because Muslims that aren’t radical Islamists (that in ways, are as hardcore as they are and more) take away their fuel to incite fear and hatred among the ignorant, the willifully ignorant, and the wicked.

127 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:37:14pm

re: #118 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

I got a young black muslim in my division. Only difference between us is that he doesn’t eat bacon in his omelets underway.

Unamerican.

/

128 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:37:14pm

re: #118 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Oh man he misses out on that pizza with the pineapple too.

129 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:37:54pm

re: #99 swamprat
Got to be plants and/or dupes.
You know, kind of like Hispanic Republicans./

130 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:38:34pm

re: #128 Ojoe

Oh man he misses out on that pizza with the pineapple too.

Yea, we try and try to get him to eat pork. He has had it before and likes the taste, but it’s bad I guess if your muslim.

131 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:38:53pm

Actually, a reformed and Americanized Islam, shorn of the nasty parts, would be a great gift from America to the world.

132 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:39:18pm

Everytime some shit goes down with terrorism we all look at him, and he just says “No I don’t know who that is.”

133 captdiggs  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:39:22pm

re: #55 CuriousLurker

Google results for muslims denounce condemn terrorism

Ok, so I went to the google page. I clicked on the first link, and then randomly clicked on one of the articles “denouncing terrorism”
This one was “Qaradawi Rejects Al-Qaeda’s Killing of Innocents”

All was fine and good until I looked for more on Qaradawi, and found more.

“Yusuf al-Qaradawi. He is on record as telling Newsnight that suicide bombing which targeted Israeli women and children was justified, arguing: “I consider this type of martyrdom operation as an evidence of God’s justice. Allah Almighty is just; through His infinite wisdom He has given the weak a weapon that the strong do not have, and that is their ability to turn their bodies into bombs as Palestinians do.”
[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk…]


I guess “terrorism” has different meanings according to who is doing the condemning.

134 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:39:24pm

re: #128 Ojoe

Oh man he misses out on that pizza with the pineapple too.

I read a book in college that posits that the whole reason pigs were given the big no no in that portion of the world was because pigs were more likely to compete with people for scarce food resources. Trichinosis is a possibility, but as it’s preventable by cooking completely, one wonders why any culture would eliminate a perfectly good source of protein.

135 b_sharp  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:39:35pm

re: #76 Spare O’Lake

Bullshit. He’s laying low. It’s a strategy.

The stupid has hit the fan.

136 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:39:37pm

re: #131 Ojoe

Actually, a reformed and Americanized Islam, shorn of the nasty parts, would be a great gift from America to the world.

How do you ‘americanize’ a religion? Build a giant church that takes huge ‘tithes’?

137 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:39:53pm

re: #136 windsagio

*mosque, not church pimf

138 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:40:00pm

re: #119 Cato the Elder

Too bad the second link in the Nidal Hasan list is one from Jihad Watch. Just sayin’.

Yeah, well, Spencer’s filth is everywhere, so there’s not much I can do about that. I’ll just have to trust that anyone with half a brain will be curious enough to do more looking. If not, there’s not much I can do about that either.

139 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:40:01pm

re: #130 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Anchovies & pineapple don’t work

Anchovies & cheese, and mushrooms, MMMMM!

Something for everyone.

140 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:40:34pm

re: #131 Ojoe
The hope of Islam is the liberation of its women. Only when women are seen as fully equal to men, and in no way subservient or inferior to them, will there be improvement.
Just saying.

141 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:40:37pm

re: #136 windsagio

How do you ‘americanize’ a religion? Build a giant church that takes huge ‘tithes’?

First step would be to make sure your preacher’s are closet homosexuals.

142 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:40:59pm

re: #134 PT Barnum

Cannibals report that people taste like pigs, also.

143 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:41:05pm

re: #107 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Anyone read the Frank Rich opinion piece on this anti Islam nonsense?

[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

It’s not going to determine President Obama’s political future or the elections of 2010 or 2012.

He may be wrong about that.

144 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:41:35pm

re: #141 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

First step would be to make sure your preacher’s are closet homosexuals.

Love it!

145 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:41:45pm

re: #142 Ojoe

Must be all the truffles.

146 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:42:02pm

re: #143 Cato the Elder

He may be wrong about that.

re: #144 PT Barnum

Love it!

check out my shitpit at [Link: www.pokechops.com…] for more of the same brother

147 TedStriker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:42:32pm

re: #28 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow. I love that photo. It really is everything utterly low class, ignorant, stupid and ugly about America in one little photo.

And people wonder why we make fun of rednecks…

He gets extra points for the arrogance that makes him think his insipid sign is somehow clever.

Hey, there’s a hell of a difference between a redneck (which I nominally consider myself to be, as a Tennessean) and a dumbass motherf**king redneck (like this cat)…

148 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:42:40pm

BBL lunch hungry …

149 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:42:46pm

ahh fuck my dog just pooped on the floor. Right near my ground zero painting. Better call Fox News.

150 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:42:51pm

re: #138 CuriousLurker
I learned the hard way that citing a google reference to prove a point can backfire. Substitute another word for ’ condemn ’ and you will reap a whole garbage can full of ’ Hasan is a hero ’
stuff. It’s the GIGO of google.

151 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:42:56pm

re: #123 Charles

I have not seen Muslims “condemning the mosque.” What I have seen are a few articles about Muslims who question the wisdom of building it there, especially with the level of animosity directed against it.

But I seriously doubt these few people are representative of most Muslims’ views on the issue.

Actually I would imagine that many Muslims in Sheboygan and Murfreesboro wish the whole thing would just go away.

152 swamprat  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:43:46pm

re: #123 Charles

I went looking for articles. I found “zionist plot” and a few calls for condemnation. A few are against it, and hay is being made from those.
I have not found an actual list, however.

153 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:43:58pm

re: #147 talon_262

Hey, there’s a hell of a difference between a redneck (which I nominally consider myself to be, as a Tennessean) and a dumbass motherf**king redneck (like this cat)…

Out redneck this, it’s impossible.

[Link: www.pokechops.com…]

154 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:45:11pm

Who agrees with the AP refusing to call it the “ground zero mosque.”

155 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:45:25pm

re: #133 captdiggs

Yeah, I’m familiar with your attitudes about Islam. Of the numerous pages you post about it every day, I’ve never seen you post a single positive thing. We have anything to talk about.

156 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:45:30pm

re: #138 CuriousLurker

Yeah, well, Spencer’s filth is everywhere, so there’s not much I can do about that. I’ll just have to trust that anyone with half a brain will be curious enough to do more looking. If not, there’s not much I can do about that either.

You could try Boolean operators: muslims condemn XYZ -spencer -jihadwatch.

157 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:46:29pm

re: #154 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Who agrees with the AP refusing to call it the “ground zero mosque.”


Well, it’s not. So, all honest people, I guess.

158 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:46:36pm

Frank Rich, worth repeating:

“How do you win Muslim hearts and minds in Kandahar when you are calling Muslims every filthy name in the book in New York?

You’d think that American hawks invested in the Afghanistan “surge” would not act against their own professed interests. But they couldn’t stop themselves from placing cynical domestic politics over country.

We owe thanks to Justin Elliott of Salon for the single most revealing account of this controversy’s evolution. He reports that there was zero reaction to the “ground zero mosque” from the front-line right or anyone else except marginal bloggers when The Times first reported on the Park51 plans in a lengthy front-page article on Dec. 9, 2009. The sole exception came some two weeks later at Fox News, where Laura Ingraham, filling in on “The O’Reilly Factor,” interviewed Daisy Khan, the wife of the project’s organizer, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. Ingraham gave the plans her blessing. “I can’t find many people who really have a problem with it,” she said. “I like what you’re trying to do.”
[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

159 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:47:03pm

re: #152 swamprat

I found “zionist plot”

It saddens me to report that a GOOGLE search of “Zionist Plot” comes up with a mere 77,500 links

Somehow, I would have thought to be in the bajillions!!!
//

160 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:47:09pm

re: #99 swamprat

Any comments on those Muslims who are condemning the mosque?

They fall outside of the stereotypes presented by both sides.

Because there aren’t any Muslims condemning the mosque.

At most, there’s some saying “let’s keep our heads down, let’s not make waves, let’s not stick our necks out.”

Which, considering what some people are trying to drum up against them, is more a concern for their own safety than anything else.

161 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:47:11pm

re: #134 PT Barnum
Because ’ cooking completely ’ was a nebulous concept then, with no instant-read themometers.
Shellfish were instantly contaminated if consumed more than a short time after being caught, so that probably entered into it too. Just common sense.

162 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:47:23pm

re: #157 Obdicut

Well, it’s not. So, all honest people, I guess.

That’s the first thing I thought once I looked at the overhead view of where the actual place is gonna be.

163 swamprat  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:47:57pm

re: #136 windsagio

How do you ‘americanize’ a religion? Build a giant church that takes huge ‘tithes’?


You GO! on TV! AND! you TELL! people to send YOU! large amounts of money ‘cause GOD! loves them.
Then you invest in condos.

164 Nimed  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:48:01pm

re: #116 tradewind

I realize it’s difficult for us here to fathom, but the vast, vast majority of Americans have never even heard of Spencer, Geller, etc.

Most Americans have no idea that Geller practically started the whole “Ground Zero mosque” polemic. It doesn’t matter. What matters is that they are now being bombarded with the story 24/7.

165 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:48:21pm

re: #133 captdiggs

There is no question that there are Islamic fundamentalists. And yet millions of Muslims have fled tyranny in their mother countries to Europe and N. America to seek a life of freedom. What about them? Send them a message that no one wants them anywhere?

It comes down to whether you think Islam can reform or not. If you think not, than what happens to them? Kill them all? Most? Forced conversion? Deportation? They can only change from within if they have support of their home communities. It’s a risk worth taking in my view. Either live the constitution or be a hypocrite.

166 alexknyc  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:49:38pm

re: #154 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Who agrees with the AP refusing to call it the “ground zero mosque.”

I do… and I don’t agree with AP on much.

It is what it is— a Lower Manhattan Islamic Cultural Center.

The 92nd Street Y is a perfect example of what this aspires to be.

167 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:49:55pm

re: #6 tradewind

The moderate muslim, as a group is what is largely missing.
They are here, so they should speak up. Forcefully, and without equivocation.
That hasn’t happened. In all seriousness, I really do not know why.


Oh good grief.

168 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:50:12pm

re: #165 marjoriemoon

Either live the constitution or be a hypocrite.


Mosque opponents have been steadfast in ignoring the constitution if it conflicts with their emotional needs.

169 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:50:23pm

re: #167 wozzablog

Welcome back ;)

170 justaminute  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:50:44pm

Okay, I am really getting pissed off now. I’m going to build a mosque near the OKC memorial now. I just renewed my line of credit at the bank a couple of days ago. If I can’t get enough money to build, maybe I can start a protest about the statue of “Jesus Weeping” the Catholic church put up.

171 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:50:51pm

re: #168 jaunte

Mosque opponents have been steadfast in ignoring the constitution if it conflicts with their emotional needs.

At least the President is sticking up for it.

172 spikester  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:51:01pm

re: #163 swamprat

“Gotta ticket to Heaven and everlasting life”
—Mark Knoffler

173 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:51:39pm

re: #150 tradewind

Well, I’m not going to cherry-pick stuff for people. If someone is reasonable and open-minded, they’ll do more investigating, ask questions, etc. before coming to a conclusion. There’s nothing I can do about people who’ve already made up their minds and are just looking for more ammo.

174 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:52:25pm

re: #169 windsagio

Welcome back ;)

Danke.

Probably just another fleeting visit though.

175 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:53:48pm

re: #156 Cato the Elder

You could try Boolean operators: muslims condemn XYZ -spencer -jihadwatch.

Yeah, I know, but I’m in the middle of doing a couple of other things at the moment. Perhaps I’ll dedicate next weekend to making a proper list for the next time someone claims Muslims don’t speak out.

176 justaminute  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:54:21pm

re: #170 justaminute

Okay, I am really getting pissed off now. I’m going to build a mosque near the OKC memorial now. I just renewed my line of credit at the bank a couple of days ago. If I can’t get enough money to build, maybe I can start a protest about the statue of “Jesus Weeping” the Catholic church put up.

forgot my snark tag,//

177 captdiggs  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:54:32pm

re: #165 marjoriemoon

Islam has to reform from within, which is what true moderates within Islam say.
But if you notice, many of the true moderates end up with their lives threatened.

178 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:54:49pm

re: #140 tradewind

The hope of Islam is the liberation of its women. Only when women are seen as fully equal to men, and in no way subservient or inferior to them, will there be improvement.
Just saying.

Funny you mention women. Daisy Khan, the Imam’s wife, does a lot of interfaith speaking engagements, like her husband. One of which she speaks about advancing the role of Muslim women within Islam.

[Link: www.asmasociety.org…]


To prioritize the improvement of Muslim-West relations and the advancement of Muslim women globally, Ms. Khan has launched two cutting edge intrafaith programs to start movements of change agents among the two disempowered majorities of the Muslim world: youth and women. The MLT: Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow and WISE: Women’s Islamic Initiative in Spirituality and Equality programs were launched at an international scale in Doha (MLT) and in Malaysia (WISE). Both programs seek to convene, empower, and build networks in their target groups, and to facilitate the emergence of a leadership that speaks with a credible, humane, and equitable voice in the global Muslim community.
179 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:54:51pm

re: #176 justaminute

forgot my snark tag,//

I really was wondering for a moment there…

180 swamprat  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:56:02pm

She’s against it;

Image: Rima-Fakih-Miss-USA-2010-photo.jpg

Rima Fakih.

I ain’t arguin’.

181 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:56:34pm

With all the hurdles in front of it, it’s not hard to imagine that this project is not going to be constructed as planned anyway. Forget the union workers who have vowed not to show up… now it looks as if the Park51 developers don’t really own the entire site.

[Link: www.nypost.com…]

182 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:57:23pm

Well, at least he’s an optimist….
NY mosque imam: Attention from project is positive

….. Rauf, who is on the first leg of a 15-day Mideast tour funded by the U.S. State Department, took heart from the dispute, saying “the fact we are getting this kind of attention is a sign of success.”

“It is my hope that people will understand more,” the imam told a gathering at the U.S. Ambassador’s residence in the Persian Gulf state of Bahrain. He did not elaborate.

183 spikester  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:57:28pm

re: #163 swamprat

184 Lidane  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:57:42pm

re: #6 tradewind

*sigh*

Just once, I’d love for people who make blanket statements about Islam or Muslims to realize two things:

(a) There are a billion Muslims on this planet. If they were all out to kill or convert us, we’d either be dead, at war, or speaking Arabic right now.

(b) Reading is a good thing. So is learning the difference between a Sufi Muslim like Imam Rauf and the assholes who flew planes into the WTC.

185 Nimed  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:58:27pm

re: #62 Spare O’Lake

Why is Rauf MIA? Shouldn’t he be out front and centre in this whole debate?

re: #76 Spare O’Lake

Bullshit. He’s laying low. It’s a strategy.

re: #94 Spare O’Lake

I find it amazing that proponents of the mosque and defenders of Rauf are not even a bit curious about his absence during this turbulence. The man is extremely articulate, so why is he not here front and centre, appearing on all the media outlets to personally counter the vitriol?
I suspect it’s a calculated strategy by his folks.

And he managed to manipulate the State Department to hire him at the right time. Holy moly Spare, Lex Luthor has nothing on this guy!

186 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:59:27pm

re: #182 Killgore Trout

Continued….

In an interview with Bahrain’s Al Wasat newspaper, he said that America’s sweeping constitutional rights are more in line with Islamic principles than the limits imposed by some Muslim nations.

“American Muslims have the right to practice their religion in accordance with the Constitution of the United States,” Rauf said. “I see the article of independence as more compliant with the principles of Islam than what is available in many of the current Muslim countries.”


Sharia!

187 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 12:59:42pm

re: #181 tradewind

With all the hurdles in front of it, it’s not hard to imagine that this project is not going to be constructed as planned anyway. Forget the union workers who have vowed not to show up… now it looks as if the Park51 developers don’t really own the entire site.

[Link: www.nypost.com…]

Oh noez! Whatever will they… oh

Con Ed Will Not Block the Ground Zero Mosque, Despite Reports

Although Con Edison owns 49-51 Park Place, one of the buildings that would be torn down to build the Ground Zero mosque, the utility does not have legal authority over what happens to the site, Con Edison said in a statement.
188 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:00:44pm

re: #184 Lidane

Regarding (a), the Chinese will get there first.

189 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:00:59pm

re: #184 Lidane

*sigh*

Just once, I’d love for people who make blanket statements about Islam or Muslims to realize two things:

(a) There are a billion Muslims on this planet. If they were all out to kill or convert us, we’d either be dead, at war, or speaking Arabic right now.

(b) Reading is a good thing. So is learning the difference between a Sufi Muslim like Imam Rauf and the assholes who flew planes into the WTC.

Suffi/Shia/Sunni/Wahabist/Dervish

Same difference really………………………..


(wait, what?)

190 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:00:59pm

re: #185 Nimed

re: #76 Spare O’Lake

re: #94 Spare O’Lake

And he managed to manipulate the State Department to hire him at the right time. Holy moly Spare, Lex Luthor has nothing on this guy!

It’s worse than that, Nimed. He’s obviously been planning this for a long time with all those other trips he went on…

191 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:01:04pm

re: #185 Nimed
Past history isn’t actually exculpatory.
Remember when Saddam was our partner in peace?//

192 swamprat  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:01:32pm

re: #186 Killgore Trout

And our Founding Fathers were in on it!

It’s a conspiracy, I tell ya!

193 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:01:40pm

re: #187 JasonA

The $100 million project is slated to go up on the site of two buildings on Park Place, one of which is still owned by Con Edison. Developer Soho Properties purchased 45-47 Park Place in 2009 for $4.8 million and paid an extra $700,000 to take over the 99-year lease for Con Ed’s 49-51 Park Place, which is connected. The lease is akin to ownership, Soho Properties said, and demolition is allowed under the terms. Also included is an option to purchase the property outright.
[Link: therealdeal.com…]
194 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:01:42pm

re: #188 Cato the Elder

Regarding (a), the Chinese will get there first.

I hope they bring food!

195 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:02:25pm

re: #191 tradewind

You didn’t even read this article, did you?

196 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:02:34pm

re: #191 tradewind

Past history isn’t actually exculpatory.
Remember when Saddam was our partner in peace?//

And remember whose daddy had his nose so far up Saddam’s ass that we couldn’t see his neck anymore?

197 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:02:47pm

re: #187 JasonA
They have to raise the money first. So far, they’ve taken in exactly…..
Two. Hundred. Bucks.

198 abolitionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:02:54pm

I’m surprised that several headlines at hizb-america dot org are about the mosque project and Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf.

The stories appear to be lifted wholesale from various media around the world, so it’s not as if hizb-america were speaking *for* Imam Rauf —just tossing as much political hay as they can about the controversy, to demonize the great satan. It’s somewhat surreal, considering the published beliefs and goals of hizb-ul-tahrir. They consider voting in an election to be a bad thing, for example.

Headlines sampling:
Mosque mania
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf’s goodwill tour comes amid ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ furor
‘Ground Zero’ Imam: ‘I Am a Jew, I Have Always Been One’
U.S. Anti-Islam Protest Seen as Lift for Extremists
So ‘Radical’ he’s FBI approved: ‘Ground Zero Mosque’ Imam advised agency on counterterrorism

199 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:02:58pm

re: #195 Charles

You didn’t even read this article, did you?

Charles, Trade already knew everything she needed to know.

200 Lidane  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:03:20pm

re: #188 Cato the Elder

Regarding (a), the Chinese will get there first.

Fair point.

201 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:04:02pm

re: #197 tradewind

They have to raise the money first. So far, they’ve taken in exactly…
Two. Hundred. Bucks.

People like you are convincing that I need to do something about that personally.

202 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:04:11pm

re: #195 Charles
Not as carefully as it would seem I should have.
Pretty generous of ConEd to let them tear it down.

203 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:04:34pm

re: #194 sattv4u2

I hope they bring food!

They’re more likely to demand it, in exchange for T-bonds.

204 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:04:58pm

re: #6 tradewind

The moderate muslim, as a group is what is largely missing.
They are here, so they should speak up. Forcefully, and without equivocation.
That hasn’t happened. In all seriousness, I really do not know why.

Under the present circumstances—you’ve got to be kidding me.

205 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:05:30pm

re: #199 JasonA

Charles, Trade already knew everything she needed to know.

Which she learned from ex-members of the Class of ‘04).

LGF preschool.

206 spikester  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:05:49pm

re: #203 Cato the Elder

the ones they already won?

207 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:05:54pm

Has anyone found a photo of the Dixie shirt guy that’s not copyrighted? The Flickr picture is not downloadable.

208 Nimed  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:06:09pm

re: #140 tradewind

The hope of Islam is the liberation of its women. Only when women are seen as fully equal to men, and in no way subservient or inferior to them, will there be improvement.
Just saying.

I’ve heard this many times stated as something obvious, but I don’t see why this must necessarily be true. Equal rights for women is, of course, something that has great value in and of itself, but I don’t see why this would inevitably lead to improvements in other areas.

209 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:06:22pm

re: #196 Cato the Elder
I do.
Your point?
Or are you just ding-trolling with a Bush bash?

210 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:06:35pm

re: #16 tradewind

On the contrary… he’s received three,( so far ) , all-expense-paid world tours to win the hearts and minds of muslims for America.
How’s that worked so far?

So, a moderate Muslim is only for real if he can get all the radicals, worldwide, to love Americans? That seems like a tall order to me.

211 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:07:28pm

re: #206 spikester

the ones they already won?

In exchange for cancelling them, fool.

212 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:07:48pm

re: #201 JasonA

People like you are convincing that I need to do something about that personally.

And the millions of Muslims living in America will be donating regularly.

213 TedStriker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:08:22pm

re: #202 tradewind

Not as carefully as it would seem I should have.
Pretty generous of ConEd to let them tear it down.

Generous, my ass…it’s in the 99-year lease agreement between SoHo Properties and ConEd. SoHo doesn’t own the land outright (at this time), but the long-term lease gives them control over what sits on it…and there’s nothing ConEd could do about even if they wanted to.

Most long-term commercial leases work a lot like that, so this is no surprise.

/sorry if the facts deprived you of your “gotcha” moment…

214 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:08:36pm

re: #208 Nimed
Really??

215 justaminute  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:09:01pm

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist

So, a moderate Muslim is only for real if he can get all the radicals, worldwide, to love Americans? That seems like a tall order to me.

When he does this SFZ, next stop Israel.//

216 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:09:04pm

re: #212 CuriousLurker

And the millions of Muslims living in America will be donating regularly.

Make a point of saying “American Muslims.”

217 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:09:21pm

re: #208 Nimed

I’ve heard this many times stated as something obvious, but I don’t see why this must necessarily be true. Equal rights for women is, of course, something that has great value in and of itself, but I don’t see why this would inevitably lead to improvements in other areas.

Because any nation that frees its women has twice as many brains working on its behalf.

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:09:40pm

re: #23 tradewind

He’s one man. I am speaking of movements among groups of American muslims that are visible, vocal, and get attention.
There is a lot more that could be done.

Serious question: let’s assume that a large visible vocal group of moderate Muslims formed, and that itwas big enough, and visible enough, and even moderate enough for everyone’s taste.

How long would it be before people were uncovering their Saudi funding and bitching that they were saying the wrong things and hadn’t denounced this, and weren’t doing that?

219 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:09:55pm

re: #213 talon_262

Generous, my ass…it’s in the 99-year lease agreement between SoHo Properties and ConEd. SoHo doesn’t own the land outright (at this time), but the long-term lease gives them control over what sits on it…and there’s nothing ConEd could do about even if they wanted to.

Most long-term commercial leases work a lot like that, so this is no surprise.

/sorry if the facts deprived you of your “gotcha” moment…

This gotcha moment was debunked weeks ago. Someone just hasn’t been doing their homework.

220 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:10:54pm

re: #213 talon_262
That’s okay, I really don’t need a ’ got’cha moment ‘. I’m not personally invested.
But I wouldn’t put any serious money down on this project being completed in its present form at its presently-proposed site.
Just saying. I guess we’ll know sooner or later.

221 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:11:31pm

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

Serious question: let’s assume that a large visible vocal group of moderate Muslims formed, and that itwas big enough, and visible enough, and even moderate enough for everyone’s taste.

How long would it be before people were uncovering their Saudi funding and bitching that they were saying the wrong things and hadn’t denounced this, and weren’t doing that?

I’m confident the Frank Luntz has already written the questions for his focus groups.

222 Lidane  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:11:31pm

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist

So, a moderate Muslim is only for real if he can get all the radicals, worldwide, to love Americans? That seems like a tall order to me.

Oh, but didn’t you know? It’s the responsibility of a single Sufi imam here in the States to turn the tide of anti-American sentiment across the entire Muslim world.

If he’s not out there working miracles and making Al Qaeda suddenly like us, then he’s clearly a failure. =P

223 TedStriker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:11:32pm

re: #219 JasonA

This gotcha moment was debunked weeks ago. Someone just hasn’t been doing their homework.

I was going to point that out to tradewind, but it wouldn’t have mattered…much.

224 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:12:00pm

re: #181 tradewind

With all the hurdles in front of it, it’s not hard to imagine that this project is not going to be constructed as planned anyway. Forget the union workers who have vowed not to show up… now it looks as if the Park51 developers don’t really own the entire site.

[Link: www.nypost.com…]

Suddenly you’re a friend of unions?

My, my: politics —> strange bedfellows.

225 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:12:44pm

re: #216 JasonA

Make a point of saying “American Muslims.”

Ah, right. Some people would twist that to mean we’re disloyal.

re: #212 CuriousLurker

And the millions of American Muslims living in America will be donating regularly.

226 alexknyc  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:13:00pm

re: #202 tradewind

Not as carefully as it would seem I should have.
Pretty generous of ConEd to let them tear it down.

As generous as adhering to the terms of a binding contract can be, yes.

227 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:13:05pm

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist
There are always roadblocks to progress for any demographic.
I suppose it all depends on how much this matters to the majority of muslims. The controversy as it stands is certainly not doing anything to help move our country forward.

228 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:13:38pm

re: #220 tradewind

I’m not personally invested.
.

Hee hee.

229 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:13:51pm

re: #207 Charles

Has anyone found a photo of the Dixie shirt guy that’s not copyrighted? The Flickr picture is not downloadable.

That’s the only good pic so far.

230 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:14:18pm

re: #222 Lidane

It’s the responsibility of a single Sufi imam here in the States to turn the tide of anti-American sentiment across the entire Muslim world.


Sure sounds as if that’s how the State Department sees it.
And funds it.

231 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:14:24pm

re: #225 CuriousLurker

Ah, right. Some people would twist that to mean we’re disloyal.

re: #212 CuriousLurker

I wasn’t considering that angle, but thinking that a lot of people need to be reminded that millions of Muslims are Americans, and entitled to all of the rights and privileges that all other citizens enjoy.

232 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:15:00pm

re: #228 Obdicut
Sure you don’t want to make that
’ hurr hurr’?/

233 TedStriker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:15:35pm

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

Serious question: let’s assume that a large visible vocal group of moderate Muslims formed, and that itwas big enough, and visible enough, and even moderate enough for everyone’s taste.

How long would it be before people were uncovering their Saudi funding and bitching that they were saying the wrong things and hadn’t denounced this, and weren’t doing that?

Beck and Fox News would be “on the case” within hours, smearing the shit outta them…

234 Abdullah al-Libi  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:15:39pm

Moderate? The creep won’t condemn Hamas and gave a “yes, but” answer on 60 Minutes re: 9/11.

Everybody was right. No wonder this site has gone downhill.

235 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:15:41pm

re: #224 Cato the Elder

Just read that Post story; Peter King comes off as such a dishonest ass.

Rep. Peter King, who opposes the mosque, said the developers seemed to be “operating under false pretenses.”

“I wonder what else they are hiding,” said King (R-LI). “If we can’t have the full truth on this, what can we believe?”


[Link: www.nypost.com…]

236 Lidane  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:15:52pm

re: #230 tradewind

Sure sounds as if that’s how the State Department sees it.
And funds it.

So the State Department only has one Muslim guy traveling across the Middle East talking to other Muslims? Really?

237 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:15:56pm

re: #224 Cato the Elder
Bite my Teamsters’ card.

238 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:16:20pm
239 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:16:54pm

re: #238 Charles

Yikes!

holee shit

240 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:17:18pm

re: #223 talon_262
I’m just not immersed enough in this controversy.
I need to eat, sleep, and breathe it./

241 Lidane  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:17:19pm

re: #238 Charles

Yikes!

Truly a sign of religious tolerance, and of the First Amendment.

///

242 TedStriker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:17:34pm

re: #234 Abdullah al-Libi

Mdrt? Th crp wn’t cndmn Hms nd gv “ys, bt” nswr n Mnts r: /. vrybd ws rght. N wndr ths st hs gn dwnhll.

Oooh, LGF Class of 2005…you come to shit on the carpet and run or are you here to debate?

243 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:17:37pm

re: #238 Charles

Yikes!

Why, that thing could easily be hidden inside a minaret.

244 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:17:44pm

re: #234 Abdullah al-Libi

And with that, I bid you a not very fond adieu.

245 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:17:58pm

re: #239 JasonA

holee shit

I am confused about the meaning of that.

246 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:18:16pm

re: #238 Charles
What the heck is that?

247 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:18:34pm

Is that missile thing anti-mosque? Religion preying on freedom? I really don’t get it.

248 CuriousLurker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:18:40pm

Got work to do, so I’m out for now. BBL

249 Four More Tears  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:18:56pm

re: #245 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

I am confused about the meaning of that.

Holy shit? It’s a phrase used to express shock and surprise.

/airplane

250 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:19:00pm

re: #246 tradewind

What the heck is that?

What you see after reading about a moderate imam.

251 Nimed  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:19:07pm

re: #214 tradewind

Really??

Yes, really. Most countries have a pretty unbalanced history when it comes to freedom and human rights. I repeat, women’s rights have obvious intrinsic value. I just don’t think it can be confidently stated that women’s rights inevitably cause other desirable developments. Yet many people seem to think that, if some Muslim majority countries would just get this right, a liberal secular democracy would inevitably follow.

252 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:19:45pm

re: #241 Lidane

Truly a sign of religious tolerance, and of the First Amendment.

///

And quite a bit of the second amendment! Gosh darn it, they’re such patriots!

253 Jimmah  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:19:51pm

re: #234 Abdullah al-Libi

Scanning thread for wingnuts…..
Detected.

/ jimmah-ice production.

254 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:19:52pm

re: #249 JasonA

Holy shit? It’s a phrase used to express shock and surprise.

/airplane

Ha no not that, I meant the picture. The missile thing confuses me.

255 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:20:04pm

re: #247 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Is that missile thing anti-mosque? Religion preying on freedom? I really don’t get it.

It’s an ape thrashing the brush with a branch “Boo! We got missiles!”

256 Wayne A. Schneider  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:20:46pm

re: #181 tradewind

I live in New York State, and an hour north of the City, and I can promise you that the New York Post does not practice real journalism. I take everything they write with a grain of salt.

257 Nimed  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:21:23pm

re: #217 sagehen

Because any nation that frees its women has twice as many brains working on its behalf.

If more brains would always lead to more desirable outcomes, countries with a greater population would be the most advanced when it comes to human rights. China begs to differ.

258 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:21:35pm

re: #234 Abdullah al-Libi

Who’s running the book on who that actually was?

259 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:21:54pm
260 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:22:28pm

re: #255 jaunte

It’s an ape thrashing the brush with a branch “Boo! We got missiles!”

From my last commanding officer-
We don’t need to worry about their missile’s, I’m more concerned with one of you shitheads getting drunk and lost and getting your head cut off on Al-Jazeera. Always stay with your buddy.”

261 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:23:21pm

re: #256 Wayne A. Schneider

I live in New York State, and an hour north of the City, and I can promise you that the New York Post does not practice real journalism. I take everything they write with a grain of salt.

Good thing salt grains come in different sizes

262 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:23:36pm

re: #256 Wayne A. Schneider

I live in New York State, and an hour north of the City, and I can promise you that the New York Post does not practice real journalism. I take everything they write with a grain of salt.

Only a grain?

Here in Manhattan, we only buy the Post for their sports section. And maybe Page Six.

263 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:23:52pm

I need to make an “Everybody was right” sign.

264 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:24:36pm

re: #262 sagehen

Only a grain?

Here in Manhattan, we only buy the Post for their sports section. And maybe Page Six.

I went to Manhattan and was shocked and awed by the variety of pizza the Sbarro’s there served. Much more variety than where I live.

265 alexknyc  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:25:43pm

re: #264 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

I went to Manhattan and was shocked and awed by the variety of pizza the Sbarro’s there served. Much more variety than where I live.

And that’s not even the good pizza in NYC

266 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:26:18pm

re: #265 alexknyc

And that’s not even the good pizza in NYC

Ya I figured but I was a tourist and didn’t know any of the good local joints.

267 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:26:54pm

re: #263 jaunte

I need to make an “Everybody was right” sign.

That’s the sign you see when you get to Heaven and find out that God is an agnostic.

268 Wayne A. Schneider  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:26:56pm

re: #197 tradewind

They have to raise the money first. So far, they’ve taken in exactly…
Two. Hundred. Bucks.

So why is there all this talk from people like Peter King about “where is this money coming from?” They speak as if the $100 million is in the bank, but we don’t know who gave it. (Not that it would be any of our business.)

269 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:27:16pm

Got super drunk wearing my dress blues around at night though. I couldn’t drink fast enough with all the people buying me drinks. New Yorkers were the nicest people.

270 Reginald Perrin  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:28:15pm

re: #244 Charles

And with that, I bid you a not very fond adieu.

A little over 2 years ago the stalkers bragged being part of a “group” that registered a couple thousand accounts at LGF. At the time, the claim sounded sounded like an exaggeration, now it sounds almost plausible.

271 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:28:32pm

re: #251 Nimed
It has nothing to do with government or country.
It is the core philosophy of the religion itself, which does not include full equality for women, and that is just wrong.
It will have to change from within, or fail to gain acceptance in a free modern society.

272 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:28:32pm

re: #207 Charles

Has anyone found a photo of the Dixie shirt guy that’s not copyrighted? The Flickr picture is not downloadable.

It is downloadable, albeit copyrighted. Flickr just made it difficult. Image: 4916651365_587fe7e8a5_b.jpg

273 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:29:24pm

re: #271 tradewind

It has nothing to do with government or country.
It is the core philosophy of the religion itself, which does not include full equality for women, and that is just wrong.
It will have to change from within, or fail to gain acceptance in a free modern society.

Dissing Mormons again, are we?

274 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:29:36pm

re: #266 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Ya I figured but I was a tourist and didn’t know any of the good local joints.

Vinnie’s
most of the places called Ray’s. (but not if they’re called “Original Ray’s”, because they’re lying, they’re not the original).
Pizza Joint, Too

275 Sionainn  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:29:47pm

re: #234 Abdullah al-Libi

Moderate? The creep won’t condemn Hamas and gave a “yes, but” answer on 60 Minutes re: 9/11.

Everybody was right. No wonder this site has gone downhill.

From the FAQ
“Imam Feisal has not condemned Hamas”

Imam Feisal has always condemned terrorism (see his 1995 book “What’s Right With Islam is What’s Right with America” and his hundreds of speeches). Hamas is both a political movement and a terrorist organization. Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror. Imam Feisal has forcefully and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, including those committed by Hamas, as un-Islamic. In his book, he even went so far as to include a copy of the Fatwa issued after 9/11 by the most respected clerics of Egypt defining the 9/11 attack as an un-Islamic act of terror and giving permission to Muslims in the U.S. armed forces to fight against those who committed this act of terror. Imam Feisal included this in his book to prove that terrorism must be fought even if Muslims have to fight fellow Muslims to stop it.

276 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:29:59pm

re: #6 tradewind

The moderate muslim, as a group is what is largely missing.
They are here, so they should speak up. Forcefully, and without equivocation.
That hasn’t happened. In all seriousness, I really do not know why.


Now, do you actually sit down and say to yourself “I’m going to carefully compose the most unbelievably wrong thing I can think of in the fewest amount of syllables, thereby ensuring my place on the bottom comments list”, or is it just more of a “I have to just deny everything that sounds like a liberal might like it as quickly as possible”?

277 bishopx  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:30:16pm

re: #140 tradewind

The hope of Christianity is the liberation of its women. Only when women are seen as fully equal to men, and in no way subservient or inferior to them, will there be improvement.
Just saying.

Fixed that for you!

Every Abrahamic religion has it’s gender issues, and aside from acknowledging that women are people too, none of these issues is relevant to discussions about what they need to do to be “American” enough.

278 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:30:36pm

re: #277 bishopx

Fixed that for you!

Every Abrahamic religion has it’s gender issues, and aside from acknowledging that women are people too, none of these issues is relevant to discussions about what they need to do to be “American” enough.

Face!

279 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:31:05pm

re: #272 000G

It is downloadable, albeit copyrighted. Flickr just made it difficult. Image: 4916651365_587fe7e8a5_b.jpg

Oh, I know I can get a copy. But since the photographer has reserved the rights, I have to respect that and not publish it. I haven’t been able to find his contact info, or I’d ask him for permission.

280 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:31:08pm

re: #273 Cato the Elder
Do catch up, Cato. And quit watching so much ’ Big Love ‘.

281 alexknyc  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:31:09pm

re: #269 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Got super drunk wearing my dress blues around at night though. I couldn’t drink fast enough with all the people buying me drinks. New Yorkers were the nicest people.

Used to own a bar in Manhattan. Sailors got a free drink card up at the pier (we sent bartenders in bikinis and roller skates to hand them out). Once they got there, they got drinks bought for them all night by other patrons.

282 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:31:13pm

re: #269 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Got super drunk wearing my dress blues around at night though. I couldn’t drink fast enough with all the people buying me drinks. New Yorkers were the nicest people.

I’m sure you’re very handsome in your dress blues, but on behalf of all the women of New York I must inform you we prefer the white sailor suits of Fleet Week. Yummy.

283 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:31:24pm

Still kinda puzzled by the comment way up there that the way to fix Islam was to “Americanize” it.

284 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:31:54pm

re: #270 Reginald Perrin

A little over 2 years ago the stalkers bragged being part of a “group” that registered a couple thousand accounts at LGF. At the time, the claim sounded sounded like an exaggeration, now it sounds almost plausible.

Those numbers are greatly distorted. Hence the sleeper socks or rather, those socks that you lose in the laundry only to turn up in a dusty wad in the corner of your room.

285 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:32:27pm

re: #271 tradewind

It has nothing to do with government or country.
It is the core philosophy of the religion itself, which does not include full equality for women, and that is just wrong.
It will have to change from within, or fail to gain acceptance in a free modern society.

Kinda like Baptists, then. And Catholics.

286 jaunte  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:32:38pm

re: #283 windsagio

Bigger servings, with more cheese and salsa.

287 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:32:47pm

re: #277 bishopx
Let me know the next time there’s a Methodist stoning, or an Episcopal Bishop okays the beating of wives, within limits./

288 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:32:48pm

re: #280 tradewind

Do catch up, Cato. And quit watching so much ’ Big Love ‘.

Why should I? It helps me fantasize about having you and Mandy and Windy as my wives.

289 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:32:56pm

re: #282 sagehen

I’m sure you’re very handsome in your dress blues, but on behalf of all the women of New York I must inform you we prefer the white sailor suits of Fleet Week. Yummy.

Yea it was the wrong season. Interesting fact: Dress blues are referred to as cockblockers because there is an intricate pain in the ass 14 button front panel that must be manipulated to get them off.

Dress whites are just a zipper and button. Much better. ;-)

290 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:33:04pm

re: #283 windsagio

Still kinda puzzled by the comment way up there that the way to fix Islam was to “Americanize” it.

benefit of the doubt, but we “Americanized” Roman Catholicism back when I was a kid by (1st step) allowing the mass to be said in English

291 alexknyc  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:33:17pm

re: #279 Charles

Oh, I know I can get a copy. But since the photographer has reserved the rights, I have to respect that and not publish it. I haven’t been able to find his contact info, or I’d ask him for permission.

Is this not covered under “Fair Use?”

292 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:33:52pm

re: #271 tradewind

It has nothing to do with government or country.
It is the core philosophy of the religion itself, which does not include full equality for women, and that is just wrong.
It will have to change from within, or fail to gain acceptance in a free modern society.

so those centuries in which Women folk were treated as property by their good christian husbands?…………

Centuries of preaching about women standing at the stove - being nothing good except for pushing out babies?

293 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:33:53pm

re: #279 Charles

Oh, I know I can get a copy. But since the photographer has reserved the rights, I have to respect that and not publish it. I haven’t been able to find his contact info, or I’d ask him for permission.

Maybe just comment on the page of that photo?

294 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:34:11pm

re: #288 Cato the Elder

Why should I? It helps me fantasize about having you and Mandy and Windy as my wives.

I’d let only one of them cook for you!

(I report ,, you decide!!)

295 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:34:45pm

re: #279 Charles

Oh, I know I can get a copy. But since the photographer has reserved the rights, I have to respect that and not publish it. I haven’t been able to find his contact info, or I’d ask him for permission.

So if I don’t give a shit about the rights can I publish it on my website?

296 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:35:19pm

I guess I could have phrased that better.

297 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:35:22pm

re: #287 tradewind

Let me know the next time there’s a Methodist stoning, or an Episcopal Bishop okays the beating of wives, within limits./

How about when Oklahoma Christians get a law passed mandating that rape victims want an abortion have to get re-raped first?

Because that’s already fucking happened.

298 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:35:23pm

re: #283 windsagio

Still kinda puzzled by the comment way up there that the way to fix Islam was to “Americanize” it.

What islam needs is just like, some go-gurt, some fruit rollups, six packs of Mountain Dew code red, a couple wendys triples, a reality show co starring Kim Kardashian, some miley cyrus records, some guys in powder blue suits on the television in front of gilt thrones asking for all your money so that God won’t strike them down, oh I dunno, maybe some wiggling and trembling in the aissoles, some palms to the face, some faith healin’, you know, America!

then islam will be truly a noble faith

299 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:35:46pm

laters gators, can’t be doing with this now.

300 Lidane  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:36:11pm

re: #285 sagehen

Kinda like Baptists, then. And Catholics.

And evangelical Christians. And Calvinists. And pretty much every other religion out there with the possible exception of Dianic Wicca.

301 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:36:26pm

re: #295 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

So if I don’t give a shit about the rights can I publish it on my website?

The Above Was A Shameless Commercial Self Promotion, and don’t necessarily promote the views of the management!!

//

302 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:37:01pm

re: #287 tradewind

Let me know the next time there’s a Methodist stoning, or an Episcopal Bishop okays the beating of wives, within limits./

Nah it’s all good, Christians don’t do that, they take out all their frustrations on queers, because they’re not actually real people

303 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:37:32pm

re: #301 sattv4u2

The Above Was A Shameless Commercial Self Promotion, and don’t necessarily promote the views of the management!!

//

Yea I regretted that phrasing as soon as I hit post.

304 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:38:12pm

It occurs to me I’d have a lot better time hanging around New York Muslims than with megachurchies in Colorado Springs

305 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:38:38pm

re: #302 WindUpBird

Nah it’s all good, Christians don’t do that, they take out all their frustrations on queers, because they’re not actually real people

heh ,, as long as the two living on the third floor of my rental property give me a real rent check, I don’t care!!

//

306 Lidane  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:39:03pm

re: #302 WindUpBird

Nah it’s all good, Christians don’t do that, they take out all their frustrations on queers, because they’re not actually real people

Queers and women. The first group aren’t real people, and the women folk are only fit for breeding. =P

307 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:39:18pm

re: #304 WindUpBird

It occurs to me I’d have a lot better time hanging around New York Muslims than with megachurchies in Colorado Springs

Crank and buttsex are a great time! Your missing out.

308 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:39:24pm

re: #305 sattv4u2

heh ,, as long as the two living on the third floor of my rental property give me a real rent check, I don’t care!!

//

You mean I’m not allowed to pay my deposit with Barbie Corvette money? :D

309 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:39:40pm

re: #302 WindUpBird

Nah it’s all good, Christians don’t do that, they take out all their frustrations on queers, because they’re not actually real people

{{WUB}} Have you heard of the Metropolitan Community Churches?[Link: www.mccny.org…]

310 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:39:56pm

re: #307 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Crank and buttsex are a great time! Your missing out.

ahahahahahahah *falls over*

311 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:40:09pm

re: #292 wozzablog
First, ’ that was then, this is now’.
Second, I’m not talking about patriarchal and outmoded religious traditions. I’m talking about religious law, codified and enforced. The law that causes women to fear for their actual lives, not just their night on the town.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali might be someone to think about.

312 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:40:40pm

re: #308 WindUpBird

You mean I’m not allowed to pay my deposit with Barbie Corvette money? :D

As long as it’s in mint condition and I can sell it on e-bay for as much or more than what I charge for rent, I can make that happen!!

313 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:41:19pm

re: #310 WindUpBird

ahahahahahahah *falls over*

Glad someone caught that. I hate wasting the good one liners.

314 McSpiff  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:41:41pm

re: #311 tradewind

Honest question, its pretty clear that everyone here up to and including the management think you’re either woefully misinformed, a bigot, or an idiot. Why stick around? Why not contribute to a place that takes your fear of muslims seriously?

315 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:41:43pm

re: #297 Obdicut
Sorry, but an sonogram transducer is not the equivalent of a crowd of 150 equipped with heavy stones.

316 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:41:52pm

re: #311 tradewind

No response to the Oklahoma laws, at all?

317 Wayne A. Schneider  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:42:03pm

re: #262 sagehen

Even Page Six is as unreliable as the rest of their so-called “news”. They make shit up all the time, repeat it to each other, then treat it like it was “overheard.”

318 Lidane  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:42:33pm

re: #311 tradewind

I’m talking about religious law, codified and enforced. The law that causes women to fear for their actual lives, not just their night on the town.

You mean like the laws that require rape victims to get re-raped by an invasive ultrasound? Or the religiously motivated laws that prevent women from getting access to birth control, or emergency contraception, or morning after pills?

319 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:42:33pm

re: #315 tradewind

Sorry, but an sonogram transducer is not the equivalent of a crowd of 150 equipped with heavy stones.

So fucking blithe. You’re disgusting. Jesus fucking christ. Pretending you care about women and then just breezily dismissing the re-raping of rape victims.

How can you live like that?

320 McSpiff  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:42:50pm

re: #315 tradewind

That’s the standard now? So we can shove things into women as long as its “not as bad as a stoning”? Fuck you’re sick, seriously.

321 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:42:53pm

re: #309 prairiefire

{{WUB}} Have you heard of the Metropolitan Community Churches?[Link: www.mccny.org…]

I actually have!

(hey that stained glass design is pretty great)

Don’t mind me, I’m just being a snot at the whole religion versus religion thing :D As if it says anything about a muslim here that they’re stoning people in Afghanistan.

322 alexknyc  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:43:07pm

re: #315 tradewind

Sorry, but an sonogram transducer is not the equivalent of a crowd of 150 equipped with heavy stones.

Why does it have to be? They’re both beyond the bounds of civilized behavior— why does it matter which one is farther away?

323 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:43:29pm

re: #311 tradewind

First, ’ that was then, this is now’.
Second, I’m not talking about patriarchal and outmoded religious traditions. I’m talking about religious law, codified and enforced. The law that causes women to fear for their actual lives, not just their night on the town.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali might be someone to think about.

In Manhattan?

324 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:44:19pm

re: #314 McSpiff
Not that your rude and child-like question even deserves a reply, but….
This is not a one-topic blog, in case it’s escaped your notice.
If you prefer a sounding board for ‘One Way ‘, why not find one yourself?

325 captdiggs  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:44:35pm

re: #302 WindUpBird

Nah it’s all good, Christians don’t do that, they take out all their frustrations on queers, because they’re not actually real people

You know, Iran doesn’t have any gays.

I think they hung them all.

326 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:45:01pm

I’m confused about a sonogram transducer. Is that gonna be part of the mosque too?

327 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:45:03pm

re: #311 tradewind

First, ’ that was then, this is now’.
Second, I’m not talking about patriarchal and outmoded religious traditions. I’m talking about religious law, codified and enforced. The law that causes women to fear for their actual lives, not just their night on the town.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali might be someone to think about.

Ok, just this once - i’m taking it.

“then” was Eire until the late 70’s - the bastion of liberated Christian thought………….. and Africa - Christianity in Africa - where they practice the Old Time christian faith.

“then and now” - puhlease.

328 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:45:14pm

Sheesh.

329 McSpiff  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:45:42pm

re: #324 tradewind

Because the majority of people here are good and honest. There’s only a few like yourself that truly stand out as bigots. Although I’m starting to think its an act, maybe you’re prepping for your welcome with your old friends at the village of the damned?

330 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:45:57pm

re: #314 McSpiff

Honest question, its pretty clear that everyone here up to and including the management think you’re either woefully misinformed, a bigot, or an idiot. Why stick around? Why not contribute to a place that takes your fear of muslims seriously?

All the highlighted aside, I would hate to be anywhere where everyone is in agreement all issues

331 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:46:28pm

re: #326 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

I’m confused about a sonogram transducer. Is that gonna be part of the mosque too?

In Oklahoma, a law has been passed that any woman wanting an abortion, including rape victims, has to be shown an ultrasound of the fetus and have it described to them. The law specifically mandates that the procedure producing the best image be used. In early pregnancy— when you’d get an abortion— that’s a vaginal wand. So, the law mandates that women who want an abortion have to have a vaginal wand inserted into them whether they want it or not.

It’s pretty damn disgusting.

332 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:46:34pm

Now, seriously i’m out.


laters.

333 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:46:39pm

Hay guys like if you’re a Muslim woman in Manhattan, you should probably just leave because in new york, the Muslims, they’ll just come out of the ground like Morlocks all overturning cars and looking for that woman to stone, they might LOOk like they’re all cicilized with jobs and cars and families but don’t be fooled

they just get gorilla strong with that reefer and then they… they…well, there’s muslims…and I think something about the…oh wait

wait

I think I’m mixing up my white-guy hysterics about brown people again

334 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:46:39pm

re: #59 tradewind

What I am talking about is the response that never seems to come when there is an example of islamic hatred for America…for example, Dr. Hasan’s rampage. Where were the organized expressions of outrage, letters to the editor, etc?

Google resuls for Muslims condemn Hasan.


re: #150 tradewind

I learned the hard way that citing a google reference to prove a point can backfire. Substitute another word for ’ condemn ’ and you will reap a whole garbage can full of ’ Hasan is a hero ‘

You were saying that there weren’t any Muslims condemning it. It was shown that there are. The fact that there are some Muslims also supporting it doesn’t disprove this fact.


re: #152 swamprat

I went looking for articles. I found “zionist plot” and a few calls for condemnation. A few are against it, and hay is being made from those.
I have not found an actual list, however.

Here’s one. Here’s another. Not hard to find.

335 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:47:41pm

Car 54 where are you?

336 McSpiff  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:48:23pm

re: #330 sattv4u2

All the highlighted aside, I would hate to be anywhere where everyone is in agreement all issues

I agree. I’d never want to stifle discussion. I just think its stupid when Charles does post like the very topic on this thread and people still saunter in pretending they had no idea! that their talking points were debunked.

Its like me showing up and saying “Hey, did anyone see those shocking Dan Rather documents about Bush?”. If you aren’t willing to make some base effort to be marginally informed, I question what if anything that poster can contribute.

337 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:49:05pm

re: #331 Obdicut

In Oklahoma, a law has been passed that any woman wanting an abortion, including rape victims, has to be shown an ultrasound of the fetus and have it described to them. The law specifically mandates that the procedure producing the best image be used. In early pregnancy— when you’d get an abortion— that’s a vaginal wand. So, the law mandates that women who want an abortion have to have a vaginal wand inserted into them whether they want it or not.

It’s pretty damn disgusting.

No shit. Learn something new every day. I’m telling you the farther you live from an ocean the more batshit insane you are. Note to self, keep just flying over Oklahoma and never actually set foot there.

338 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:49:40pm

re: #329 McSpiff
What a rich fantasy world you inhabit.
Sorry to disappoint, but you’ll just have to try prodding someone else.

339 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:49:50pm

The opposition to the Park51 project seems to be driven entirely that the Cordoba Initiative is viewed as being in the same classification or category as Al Qaeda, which is to say “Muslim.” However, I would argue that Imam Rauf has much more in common with rational Westerners than he does with Al Qaeda, and that Park51’s strongest critics have much more in common with Al Qaeda than with the rational West, from women’s rights to justification of the use of force for religious purposes.

However, those critics, even when forced to admit that the Cordoba Initiative is opposed to extremist Islam, then shift to the claim that extremist Islam would view the Cordoba Initiative as some kind of ally or symbol. That is, “I don’t believe that, but Al Qaeda would, and what they think is more important.” I would disagree with this premise as well. To those in a part of the world where Islam is simply the norm, the fact that this project is Muslim is probably far less significant to them than the fact that its vision and mission statements are directed at fostering mutual understanding and peaceful coexistence between Islam and the West, something which both they and our own wingnuts fiercely oppose.

The “battle lines” aren’t drawn between Islam and Christianity. Rather, they’re between the tolerant and the intolerant. Are one side of this divide is the U.S. Constitution and Imam Rauf. On the other side are Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich and Al Qaeda. It’s pretty clear to me which side I’d rather be on.

341 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:50:00pm

Man I sure am glad nobody Christian in Uganda is proposing anything extreme

And I sure am glad no Christian in America supports killing gay people in Uganda,codifying that into law, that’d like cross a line or something

342 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:50:04pm

re: #337 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Well, then there are the rest of us that actually do live in the center of the country.

343 tradewind  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:50:30pm

re: #332 wozzablog
Me too.

344 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:51:18pm

re: #342 prairiefire

Well, then there are the rest of us that actually do live in the center of the country.

I am sorry. I have never lived more than 10 miles from the oceans, on both coast’s. It even effected my choice of military branch. Was gonna go Air Force but didn’t wanna get stuck in some god forsaken base in middle america crazy land.

345 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:51:49pm

re: #325 captdiggs

You know, Iran doesn’t have any gays.

I think they hung them all.

By that kind of reasoning, the U.S. military doesn’t have any gays either. It says so right in the military code of conduct.

346 Cato the Elder  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:51:55pm

re: #336 McSpiff

I agree. I’d never want to stifle discussion. I just think its stupid when Charles does post like the very topic on this thread and people still saunter in pretending they had no idea! that their talking points were debunked.

Its like me showing up and saying “Hey, did anyone see those shocking Dan Rather documents about Bush?”. If you aren’t willing to make some base effort to be marginally informed, I question what if anything that poster can contribute.

My Moonbat Brother (MMB™) still thinks the Rather forgeries were somehow real, despite being forgeries.

Cognitive dissidence, anyone?

347 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:51:55pm

Although my brother lived in Missouri and he didn’t seem to mind it too much. Said it was really flat.

348 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:52:34pm

re: #343 tradewind

Me too.

So do gay people not count towards your “Christians don’t act like retarded bloodthirsty barbarians and codify viciousness into law” total?

I’m just curious how many gay people equals one woman in your head, you know, for these purposes

Also, do lesbians count twice?

I’d like to see that math

349 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:53:58pm

re: #345 elbruce

By that kind of reasoning, the U.S. military doesn’t have any gays either. It says so right in the military code of conduct.

There are four openly gay dudes on my sub alone. I don’t know how aircraft carriers are but I just imagine gay dudes all over the place.

350 McSpiff  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:54:43pm

re: #346 Cato the Elder

My Moonbat Brother (MMB™) still thinks the Rather forgeries were somehow real, despite being forgeries.

Cognitive dissidence, anyone?

As someone on the left side of the aisle, I have no problem shouting from the rooftops that the moonbats can be equally insane. I would say I consider the two forms of cognitive are equal, except I believe the Park51 hysteria has a greater potential for violence (or at least Bush had the secret service, depending on how you wanna look at it).

351 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:55:49pm

re: #348 WindUpBird

Let me just throw in here that I don’t think Tradewind is actually a woman at all, but is rather playing one on the internet.

352 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:55:52pm

re: #349 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

All over the place!

353 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:56:03pm

re: #339 elbruce

What i want to know is, which terrifying muslim structure is the symbol for the wild eyed terrorists to go stone our white women?

is it the one that’s being proposed now, the Park51 complex?

or is it the one that’s existed since before the world trade center did, four blocks away

how about the one in the Pentagon, that’s like right there, there’s gotta be some 5 sided numerology happening with that one, it might be on a ley line


these are the questions I have as I rock back and forth in my trailer in Mississippi, clutching my tiny dog and worrying extremely hard about what people in Manhattan do in their own neighborhoods

354 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:56:06pm

re: #347 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Although my brother lived in Missouri and he didn’t seem to mind it too much. Said it was really flat.

It is hilly in MO where we live. Our house sits on top of frozen ocean waves.

355 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:56:46pm

I wonder if I stumped Tradewind with the whole “are queers people” thing


That would be a bonus

357 bishopx  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:57:44pm

re: #287 tradewind

How about this, this and this.

I’m sure there is more, but I have to go out for my mother’s birthday dinner now.

358 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:57:57pm

re: #352 Obdicut

All over the place!


[Video]

Kudos. I laughed loud enough for my dog to look at me like I’m on drugs.

359 captdiggs  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:58:11pm

re: #345 elbruce

By that kind of reasoning, the U.S. military doesn’t have any gays either. It says so right in the military code of conduct.

You know, for some reason I’m just not buying “don’t ask, don’t tell” as the moral equivalent of mass hangings…but that’s just me.

360 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 1:58:42pm

re: #59 tradewind

I agree completely, and those are, actually, the muslims I know in my everyday life. They are professional people who are also supremely apolitical. Just want to live their lives.
What I am talking about is the response that never seems to come when there is an example of islamic hatred for America…for example, Dr. Hasan’s rampage. Where were the organized expressions of outrage, letters to the editor, etc?
Before 9-11, these disclaimers would not have been expected or needed. But it happened, and there is a lot that could be done to put it behind us that I don’t believe is being done.
I’m done with this. And please…any more expressions regarding my person should please be more creative than ’ you’re an idiot ’ or ’ a doodyhead ‘.

I was out for a bit; just returned and saw this.

I never said you were an idiot or a “doodyhead”, so putting that in there, in the response to ME, isn’t really appreciated.

9/11 was an awful, awful day. I remember it clearly, the panic, the fright.

But for how long after 9/11 should we expect to have what you call “disclaimers”? How long will be long enough? There hasn’t been another 9/11. The most recent incident I can recall is that pitiful one-person attempt in NYC that failed. So - either our security folks are doing the job they are supposed to do, OR there is no huge organized terrorist plot among US Muslims, OR a combination of both, probably. And if there is no huge organized terrorist plot among US Muslims - well, what more could we want? Why the need for disclaimers?

361 McSpiff  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:00:19pm

I seriously wish I could live my life only comparing myself to the worst excesses of mankind. “Well, I ran over that kid on a bike today, but have you seen the killing fields in Cambodia? That shit was nuts!”

362 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:00:36pm

re: #360 reine.de.tout

I was out for a bit; just returned and saw this.

I never said you were an idiot or a “doodyhead”, so putting that in there, in the response to ME, isn’t really appreciated.

9/11 was an awful, awful day. I remember it clearly, the panic, the fright.

But for how long after 9/11 should we expect to have what you call “disclaimers”? How long will be long enough? There hasn’t been another 9/11. The most recent incident I can recall is that pitiful one-person attempt in NYC that failed. So - either our security folks are doing the job they are supposed to do, OR there is no huge organized terrorist plot among US Muslims, OR a combination of both, probably. And if there is no huge organized terrorist plot among US Muslims - well, what more could we want? Why the need for disclaimers?

Maybe the terrorists are just woefully inept and really really shitty at being terrorists.

363 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:00:46pm

The best part about itis you don’t even need to go to a scary third world country to find people who want to ruin the lives of gay people

you don’t have to go to any of those stans, you don’t have to go anywhere! Just book your flight today to Colorado Springs, and then you can hear the cockroaches opine about the queer menace in their megachurches and their think taank offices, all fancy and done up with leather chairs and flat screen televisions, right there in town

And them maybe you can top off your day of listening to some oily klansman tell you how it really should be with a nice tasty rack of ribs, because I hear they got good eatin’ in Colorado Springs as long as you don’t, you know, look too much like a fag

364 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:01:23pm

re: #361 McSpiff

I seriously wish I could live my life only comparing myself to the worst excesses of mankind. “Well, I ran over that kid on a bike today, but have you seen the killing fields in Cambodia? That shit was nuts!

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

365 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:01:45pm

re: #363 WindUpBird

The best part about itis you don’t even need to go to a scary third world country to find people who want to ruin the lives of gay people

you don’t have to go to any of those stans, you don’t have to go anywhere! Just book your flight today to Colorado Springs, and then you can hear the cockroaches opine about the queer menace in their megachurches and their think taank offices, all fancy and done up with leather chairs and flat screen televisions, right there in town

And them maybe you can top off your day of listening to some oily klansman tell you how it really should be with a nice tasty rack of ribs, because I hear they got good eatin’ in Colorado Springs as long as you don’t, you know, look too much like a fag

I need an Indian, a Cop, and a construction worker willing to go on a road trip to Colorado Springs. Whose coming with me.

366 Nimed  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:01:48pm

re: #271 tradewind

It has nothing to do with government or country.
It is the core philosophy of the religion itself, which does not include full equality for women, and that is just wrong.
It will have to change from within, or fail to gain acceptance in a free modern society.

I obviously disagree with the “core philosophy of the religion itself” (a hundred years ago you could say that about pretty much all religions). I don’t think there’s much evidence that such a thing even exists in an immutable form. But “the core philosophy” is not what I was arguing.

Take Iran, for instance. It is a far more advanced country when it comes to women’s rights and role in society than many other Islamic nations.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

As of late 2006 nearly 70% of Iran’s science and engineering students are women. Furthermore according to UNESCO world survey, Iran has the highest female to male ratio at primary level of enrollment in the world among sovereign nations, with a girl to boy ratio of 1.22 : 1.00.


While it’s true Iran is far from equality in lots of areas (value of testimony, dress codes, etc), women’s movements are legal and accepted in Iranian society. If women’s rights are such a panacea, why are we having more problems with Iran than with other countries which are comparatively far more repressive to women?

I’m tired of repeating the “disclaimer” about the importance and desirability of equal right for women, so consider it said in all posts from now on.

367 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:01:59pm

re: #363 WindUpBird

The offices also have lots of eagles and flags, I am sure.

368 McSpiff  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:02:20pm

re: #360 reine.de.tout

If I ever have kids, I think I’ll just leave them around your house every once in a while so they can pick up on your awesome and moderate attitude. I doubt they’ll be getting much of that from me.

369 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:02:51pm

re: #359 captdiggs

You know, for some reason I’m just not buying “don’t ask, don’t tell” as the moral equivalent of mass hangings…but that’s just me.

I’m more inclined to bring up the Christian right in America going to Uganda to you know, recommend a few things

that’s probably closer to whacther lookin for

370 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:02:55pm

I’d like to add that I’m just really pleased to hear (in the OP) that Imam Rauf is getting criticized from both sides. That tells me he’s on the right track.


re: #359 captdiggs

You know, for some reason I’m just not buying “don’t ask, don’t tell” as the moral equivalent of mass hangings…but that’s just me.

I wasn’t making a comparison of moral equivalence. I was insinuating that just as we have always had plenty of gays in the military during and before DADT, I’m sure Iran still has plenty of gays who are all in the closet, no matter what they proclaim.

371 alexknyc  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:02:59pm

re: #365 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

I need an Indian, a Cop, and a construction worker willing to go on a road trip to Colorado Springs. Whose coming with me.

No biker with a handlebar mustache? Or do you have one of those already?

372 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:03:07pm

re: #368 McSpiff

You don’t need a moderate attitude until you have kids >>

373 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:03:09pm

re: #365 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

I need an Indian, a Cop, and a construction worker willing to go on a road trip to Colorado Springs. Whose coming with me.

Somewhere there’s a reality show in there

374 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:03:39pm

re: #371 alexknyc

No biker with a handlebar mustache? Or do you have one of those already?

AH shit i forgot about the fucking biker. Edit- I need a biker as well.

375 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:04:38pm

re: #343 tradewind

Me too.

oh miss

still waiting on why you’re up in arms about the muslims but not the Christians in uganda


clock’s a tickin

376 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:04:51pm

re: #368 McSpiff

If I ever have kids, I think I’ll just leave them around your house every once in a while so they can pick up on your awesome and moderate attitude. I doubt they’ll be getting much of that from me.

Aw.
{mcspiff}
You just made my day! Thank you.

It’s simply a matter of observing what’s going on, and refusing to life in a state of panic. It’s really just that simple.

377 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:05:14pm

I don’t think Uganda counts for anything because the people there are black. AMIRIGHT?

378 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:05:52pm

re: #372 windsagio

You don’t need a moderate attitude until you have kids >>

That’s the truth!

379 alexknyc  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:06:08pm

re: #377 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

I don’t think Uganda counts for anything because the people there are black. AMIRIGHT?

Updinged under the assumption you left out the sarc tag.

380 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:06:23pm

re: #372 windsagio

You don’t need a moderate attitude until you have kids >>

“I love you both just the same.”

381 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:06:26pm

re: #376 reine.de.tout

Aw.
{mcspiff}
You just made my day! Thank you.

It’s simply a matter of observing what’s going on, and refusing to life in a state of panic. It’s really just that simple.

I live life in a state of panic, but it’s self-inflicted, it’s sort of a fun zany shutin artist panic

382 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:06:51pm

re: #379 alexknyc

Updinged under the assumption you left out the sarc tag.

Yea i left it out. Oops. Hope i don’t get reported.

383 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:07:05pm

re: #380 prairiefire

“I love you both just the same.”

“Even though you stole daddy’s 5 series and overturned it in the reservoir.”

384 McSpiff  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:07:29pm

re: #376 reine.de.tout

You really summed it up nicely though. In another few years, are we going to be expecting muslims who weren’t even alive for 9/11 to be making these disclaimers? Why should they pay for something that happened before they were even born?

385 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:07:30pm

re: #381 WindUpBird

I live life in a state of panic, but it’s self-inflicted, it’s sort of a fun zany shutin artist panic

yeah, well, you’re, um, you’re, well - you know, you’re you.
LOL.

386 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:08:14pm

re: #384 McSpiff

You really summed it up nicely though. In another few years, are we going to be expecting muslims who weren’t even alive for 9/11 to be making these disclaimers? Why should they pay for something that happened before they were even born?

Well, DUH.
Exactly.

387 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:08:54pm

Regarding a criticism that I’ve heard but hasn’t been made in this thread - sometimes the “conern moderates” will point out that the Park51 project is nationally unpopular per the latest snap poll, and that therefore it would just be really nice of them to move in consideration of the feelings of the majority of Americans.

As the NYT article posted at top demonstrates, the longer this stays in the news cycle, the more that reporters looking to cover new angles of the story are going to dig up more and more pertinent information about it. Most of the people responding to that poll had heard little more than “Muslims are building a Mosque on top of ground zero.” The actual facts of the matter, as well as various other relevant facts are slower to catch up.

As long as they persist and don’t cave in to pressure, and as long as the wingnuts keep the pressure up driving the news cycle, by November this will likely have totally backfired on the right wing, as more reporters look at it from different angles and it becomes obvious to the majority of voters that most GOP’ers (with some significant exceptions) are just being religious bigots in trying to slander a very worthy project.

388 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:09:29pm

re: #372 windsagio

You don’t need a moderate attitude until you have kids >>

you don’t need drugs until you have kids, either. unfortunately, i’d be supposedly setting a “bad example”, bla bla bla, so i continue to refrain…//

389 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:10:01pm

re: #385 reine.de.tout

yeah, well, you’re, um, you’re, well - you know, you’re you.
LOL.

It takes a lot of work to be this nutty! I gotta get up at the crack of noon and everything

390 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:10:18pm

re: #387 elbruce

Regarding a criticism that I’ve heard but hasn’t been made in this thread - sometimes the “conern moderates” will point out that the Park51 project is nationally unpopular per the latest snap poll, and that therefore it would just be really nice of them to move in consideration of the feelings of the majority of Americans.

As the NYT article posted at top demonstrates, the longer this stays in the news cycle, the more that reporters looking to cover new angles of the story are going to dig up more and more pertinent information about it. Most of the people responding to that poll had heard little more than “Muslims are building a Mosque on top of ground zero.” The actual facts of the matter, as well as various other relevant facts are slower to catch up.

As long as they persist and don’t cave in to pressure, and as long as the wingnuts keep the pressure up driving the news cycle, by November this will likely have totally backfired on the right wing, as more reporters look at it from different angles and it becomes obvious to the majority of voters that most GOP’ers (with some significant exceptions) are just being religious bigots in trying to slander a very worthy project.

Well said sir. +1

391 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:10:32pm

re: #388 Aceofwhat?

you don’t need drugs until you have kids, either. unfortunately, i’d be supposedly setting a “bad example”, bla bla bla, so i continue to refrain…//

If they don’t see you, you’re not setting any example! :D

392 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:10:46pm

re: #99 swamprat

Any comments on those Muslims who are condemning the mosque?

They fall outside of the stereotypes presented by both sides.

I think some of them are concerned about the insensitivity perceived by some about the location. I think others feel that being too aggressive about it will give American Muslims a bad rep.

I think that others, to be honest, enjoy being the go-to Muslims for some people who need go-to Muslims. The experts who confirm people’s fears about the ‘other’ Muslims.

Some of them may not like Rauf for a wide range of reasons—personal, political or religious.

Some of them may just feel that it’s too close to Ground Zero.

393 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:11:16pm

re: #389 WindUpBird

It takes a lot of work to be this nutty! I gotta get up at the crack of noon and everything

No it doesn’t!

Mom DID drop me on my head several times when I was an infant, so I did get a head start though!!

394 captdiggs  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:11:49pm

re: #387 elbruce

It’s not going away. Particularly not as we approach the 9th anniversary of the attack.

395 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:11:56pm

re: #387 elbruce

Well said.
And the project developers must not cave in to pressure on this, IMO.

The successful completion of this project, future reports about the use of the facility and the people there - will eventually, I HOPE, get people to settle down, in spite of Geller and friends.

396 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:12:00pm

re: #392 SanFranciscoZionist

I think some of them are concerned about the insensitivity perceived by some about the location. I think others feel that being too aggressive about it will give American Muslims a bad rep.

I think that others, to be honest, enjoy being the go-to Muslims for some people who need go-to Muslims. The experts who confirm people’s fears about the ‘other’ Muslims.

Some of them may not like Rauf for a wide range of reasons—personal, political or religious.

Some of them may just feel that it’s too close to Ground Zero.

I don’t believe anyone gets to say something is insensitive in new York. it’s New York. :D

397 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:12:10pm

re: #390 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Well said sir. +1

welcome to LGF!

!@#%$#$% lefties…

//

398 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:12:23pm

re: #391 WindUpBird

If they don’t see you, you’re not setting any example! :D

It’s that whole sitting in the recliner with the glazed look in your eyes and to any question they ask your answer is “ddduuudde” thats the giveaway

399 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:12:43pm

re: #393 sattv4u2

No it doesn’t!

Mom DID drop me on my head several times when I was an infant, so I did get a head start though!!

The funny thing is I’m really not kidding, doing art for a living is not easy *_*

400 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:13:00pm

re: #389 WindUpBird

It takes a lot of work to be this nutty! I gotta get up at the crack of noon and everything

re: #393 sattv4u2

No it doesn’t!

Mom DID drop me on my head several times when I was an infant, so I did get a head start though!!

No, ya know, I never in a million years woulda put the two of you in the same basket, but now that it’s been mentioned …

401 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:13:00pm

re: #116 tradewind

I realize it’s difficult for us here to fathom, but the vast, vast majority of Americans have never even heard of Spencer, Geller, etc.

But now, thanks to their hard work, many more have heard of the ‘Ground Zero Mosque’.

402 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:13:19pm

re: #399 WindUpBird

The funny thing is I’m really not kidding, doing art for a living is not easy *_*

Oh ,, I thought you were talking about the being nutty part!

403 McSpiff  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:13:37pm

re: #392 SanFranciscoZionist

I think some of them are concerned about the insensitivity perceived by some about the location. I think others feel that being too aggressive about it will give American Muslims a bad rep.

I think that others, to be honest, enjoy being the go-to Muslims for some people who need go-to Muslims. The experts who confirm people’s fears about the ‘other’ Muslims.

Some of them may not like Rauf for a wide range of reasons—personal, political or religious.

Some of them may just feel that it’s too close to Ground Zero.

I made the argument here before when a civilian trial for KSM was in the works, that if you wanted a guaranteed conviction, you’d stack the jury with Muslims. I think we’re seeing a bit of that again. People worried about being viewed as Muslims first, and Americans 2nd might speak out against a project they’d otherwise be neutral on, just to come across as a “Real American”.

404 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:13:40pm

re: #399 WindUpBird

The funny thing is I’m really not kidding, doing art for a living is not easy *_*

it would freak me out, to be honest. that and i can’t even draw a proper stick figure…

405 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:14:01pm

re: #398 sattv4u2

It’s that whole sitting in the recliner with the glazed look in your eyes and to any question they ask your answer is “ddduuudde” thats the giveaway

Isn’t that what babysitters and grandparents are for? :D

“Mommy and daddy are going to go to the Phish show, be good for grandma!”

406 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:14:06pm

re: #121 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

I did get him to eat a pork rind once though. He liked it.

DUDE!!

407 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:15:02pm

re: #387 elbruce

This pattern is usually followed with outrageous outrages. I enjoy reading the right leaning blog posters to try to guess when the exact moment of reality intrudes and their outrage starts to deflate into nihilism. It is usually by comment #77.

408 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:15:06pm

re: #125 Obdicut

What is your inquiry, Spare?

“Isn’t there some way we can reveal this guy as a bad Muslim and stop him from building his mosque?”

I admit not to being a mind-reader, but after Spare has busily investigated every possible angle, I think this is the version that’s emerging.

409 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:15:15pm

Move upstairs, or wait for SFZ to catch up?

Decisions, decisions …

410 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:15:23pm

re: #406 SanFranciscoZionist

DUDE!!

This was on like day 50 of a patrol and I had been hounding him every single watch the whole time. It wasn’t easy. He is very committed.

411 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:15:42pm

re: #402 sattv4u2

Oh ,, I thought you were talking about the being nutty part!

Oh, that’s exactly what I mean, I pretty much had to work my ass off for years to build up a nice client base of like-minded weirdos that I could do work for regularly

it’s like, just because it’s fringey counterculture doesn’t mean I can’t bring a hawkish businessman ethos to it

412 blueraven  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:15:53pm

re: #331 Obdicut

In Oklahoma, a law has been passed that any woman wanting an abortion, including rape victims, has to be shown an ultrasound of the fetus and have it described to them. The law specifically mandates that the procedure producing the best image be used. In early pregnancy— when you’d get an abortion— that’s a vaginal wand. So, the law mandates that women who want an abortion have to have a vaginal wand inserted into them whether they want it or not.

It’s pretty damn disgusting.

While that is disgusting and just so wrong on many levels…I’m not sure that is even the worst of it. Women are use to humiliation and major discomfort in the Doctor’s office. It is the fact that they are treated as less than equal as adult women.
They have already made a decision, probably through great moral, emotional, and intellectual turmoil. Why must they be forced to look at images of the fetus?
Is the point to inflict even more emotional harm? Seems like it.
Do the fathers have to be present? No.

413 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:16:04pm

re: #407 prairiefire

This pattern is usually followed with outrageous outrages. I enjoy reading the right leaning blog posters to try to guess when the exact moment of reality intrudes and their outrage starts to deflate into nihilism. It is usually by comment #77.

hey, now…

414 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:16:19pm

re: #238 Charles

Yikes!

There’s more:

[Link: www.flickr.com…]

[Link: www.flickr.com…]

415 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:16:43pm

re: #404 Aceofwhat?

it would freak me out, to be honest. that and i can’t even draw a proper stick figure…

It freaks me out sometimes, actually

416 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:16:45pm

re: #411 WindUpBird

Oh, that’s exactly what I mean, I pretty much had to work my ass off for years to build up a nice client base of like-minded weirdos that I could do work for regularly

it’s like, just because it’s fringey counterculture doesn’t mean I can’t bring a hawkish businessman ethos to it

Great ,,, you get PAID for being nutty and you had to work for it

being nutty comes natural to me and all I get is strange looks at work for it !!

417 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:16:49pm

re: #140 tradewind

The hope of Islam is the liberation of its women. Only when women are seen as fully equal to men, and in no way subservient or inferior to them, will there be improvement.
Just saying.

Plenty of other religions that haven’t quite gotten to that point yet, but I’d say there is hope for us all.

418 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:17:01pm

re: #413 Aceofwhat?

hey, now…

Oh, not you Ace. I’m talking about the echo chamber sites.

419 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:17:22pm

re: #416 sattv4u2

Great ,,, you get PAID for being nutty and you had to work for it

being nutty comes natural to me and all I get is strange looks at work for it !!

I focused the nutty into a laser beam :D

420 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:17:48pm

re: #418 prairiefire

Oh, not you Ace. I’m talking about the echo chamber sites.

Whenever you call him just Ace, I’m reminded of Keifer Sutherland from Stand By me

421 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:18:47pm

re: #414 000G

There’s more:

[Link: www.flickr.com…]

[Link: www.flickr.com…]

I definitely call bullshit on the Marine Corps flag. No active duty marine would be dumb enough to put that on there.

422 austin_blue  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:19:11pm

re: #275 Sionainn

From the FAQ
“Imam Feisal has not condemned Hamas”

Imam Feisal has always condemned terrorism (see his 1995 book “What’s Right With Islam is What’s Right with America” and his hundreds of speeches). Hamas is both a political movement and a terrorist organization. Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror. Imam Feisal has forcefully and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, including those committed by Hamas, as un-Islamic. In his book, he even went so far as to include a copy of the Fatwa issued after 9/11 by the most respected clerics of Egypt defining the 9/11 attack as an un-Islamic act of terror and giving permission to Muslims in the U.S. armed forces to fight against those who committed this act of terror. Imam Feisal included this in his book to prove that terrorism must be fought even if Muslims have to fight fellow Muslims to stop it.

Oh, you and our damn “facts”.

Lalalalaimnotlisteninglalalalal…

/Do I hafta?

423 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:19:30pm

re: #165 marjoriemoon

Either live the constitution or be a hypocrite.

Repeated yet again for truth.

424 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:20:21pm

I just noticed how the girl driver on Ice Road Truckers is pretty cute. huh

425 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:20:36pm

re: #414 000G

Oh my soul :(


Also, that poor construction company they parked in front of. that’s the kind of PR you don’t want.

426 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:20:55pm

re: #165 marjoriemoon

There is no question that there are Islamic fundamentalists. And yet millions of Muslims have fled tyranny in their mother countries to Europe and N. America to seek a life of freedom. What about them? Send them a message that no one wants them anywhere?

It comes down to whether you think Islam can reform or not. If you think not, than what happens to them? Kill them all? Most? Forced conversion? Deportation? They can only change from within if they have support of their home communities. It’s a risk worth taking in my view. Either live the constitution or be a hypocrite.

“I want my kids to live in a free country.”
“You sure you’re not a terrorist?”

“I came here for freedom of religion.”
“If you build a mosque I will hold my breath until I turn blue.”

“I want my daughter to have an education.”
“I want the school to make her take off her headscarf.”

I do not want to engage in this conversation. It’s a stupid conversation.

427 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:21:09pm

re: #418 prairiefire

Oh, not you Ace. I’m talking about the echo chamber sites.

i know. i left off the sarc tag, but it was implied!

428 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:22:14pm

re: #414 000G

There’s more:

[Link: www.flickr.com…]

[Link: www.flickr.com…]

There’s always a sort of shitty Photoshop aesthetic that comes with bad right-wing sites and signage like this

it sorta reminds me of the packaging for fireworks, it’s visually incredibly loud and offputting, lots of yellow, lots of impact font

429 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:22:40pm

re: #177 captdiggs

Islam has to reform from within, which is what true moderates within Islam say.
But if you notice, many of the true moderates end up with their lives threatened.

And yet, when they show any caution, we condemn them, and when they try to do stuff in the community, Newt Gingrich acts out.

430 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:22:46pm

re: #426 SanFranciscoZionist

“I want my kids to live in a free country.”
“You sure you’re not a terrorist?”

“I came here for freedom of religion.”
“If you build a mosque I will hold my breath until I turn blue.”

“I want my daughter to have an education.”
“I want the school to make her take off her headscarf.”

I do not want to engage in this conversation. It’s a stupid conversation.

Didn’t we do this to the Irish once upon a time?

431 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:23:05pm

re: #421 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

I definitely call bullshit on the Marine Corps flag. No active duty marine would be dumb enough to put that on there.

It seems like uniformed people from the armed forces were on site: [Link: www.flickr.com…]

This made me go hmm:

[Link: www.flickr.com…]

432 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:23:46pm

re: #429 SanFranciscoZionist

And yet, when they show any caution, we condemn them, and when they try to do stuff in the community, Newt Gingrich acts out.

Well, to be fair, Newt got out of his cage, it’s not his fault

433 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:23:47pm

re: #180 swamprat

She’s against it;

Image: Rima-Fakih-Miss-USA-2010-photo.jpg

Rima Fakih.

I ain’t arguin’.

She’s very pretty, but I don’t know that she’s who I would turn to for a serious analysis of the American Muslim communities.

434 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:24:34pm

re: #433 SanFranciscoZionist

She’s very pretty, but I don’t know that she’s who I would turn to for a serious analysis of the American Muslim communities.

Lets ask Heidi Montag and Spencer Pratt what they have to say

435 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:24:55pm
436 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:25:50pm

re: #433 SanFranciscoZionist

She’s very pretty, but I don’t know that she’s who I would turn to for a serious analysis of the American Muslim communities.

I’d at least let her try…i don’t like to hold beauty against any woman;)

437 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:26:01pm

re: #431 000G

It seems like uniformed people from the armed forces were on site: [Link: www.flickr.com…]

This made me go hmm:

[Link: www.flickr.com…]

Those guys could have been there for any reason. Maybe they had a recruiting office close by. We aren’t allowed to take part in anything even resembling a protest, gathering, ect in uniform or use any military insignia for anything not implicitly sanctioned by your command.

I suppose they could have been part of the protest, but it just strikes me as unlikely due to the high probability of getting smashed by the UCMJ.

438 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:26:50pm

re: #197 tradewind

They have to raise the money first. So far, they’ve taken in exactly…
Two. Hundred. Bucks.

I thought they were being secretly funded by Muslim theocrats worldwide. Damn, those Saudis are cheap.

439 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:28:10pm

re: #437 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Those guys could have been there for any reason. Maybe they had a recruiting office close by. We aren’t allowed to take part in anything even resembling a protest, gathering, ect in uniform or use any military insignia for anything not implicitly sanctioned by your command.

I suppose they could have been part of the protest, but it just strikes me as unlikely due to the high probability of getting smashed by the UCMJ.

I don’t think it’s likely, either.

Are american citizens, specifically civilians, allowed to use the Marine Corps flag in public to make political statements like that?

440 b_sharp  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:28:21pm

re: #319 Obdicut

So fucking blithe. You’re disgusting. Jesus fucking christ. Pretending you care about women and then just breezily dismissing the re-raping of rape victims.

How can you live like that?

I thought you were talking to Trade.

441 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:28:31pm

re: #435 windsagio

OT geekplosion.

did NickGuy really get banned or is that just his cute little custom quip?

oh, and damn.

442 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:28:32pm

re: #431 000G

It seems like uniformed people from the armed forces were on site: [Link: www.flickr.com…]

I like how that picture also caught the awning of the New York Dolls gentleman’s club… “Desecration! Hallowed ground! Bark! Bark!” No? Nothing from the wingnuts on that?

By the way, it occurs to me that all of the people protesting Park51 seem to say they’re doing it in consideration of someone else; 9/11 victims’ families tend to be the most frequent sacred cow. How come nobody claims to be outraged on their own behalf? Did someone who lost a loved one in the WTC attack call Sarah Palin up and say “please speak for me?” Somehow I doubt it.

443 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:28:40pm

re: #215 justaminute

When he does this SFZ, next stop Israel.//

Hasbara Man!! Able to change minds and hearts with a single speech!

444 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:29:05pm

re: #433 SanFranciscoZionist

She’s very pretty, but I don’t know that she’s who I would turn to for a serious analysis of the American Muslim communities.

Well, if we can turn to Carrie Prejean for serious analysis about gay marriage…

445 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:29:07pm

re: #217 sagehen

Because any nation that frees its women has twice as many brains working on its behalf.

Ah, but the assumption here is that the women will be a moderating influence on Islam. Maybe. Maybe not.

//

446 alexknyc  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:30:22pm

re: #437 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Those guys could have been there for any reason. Maybe they had a recruiting office close by. We aren’t allowed to take part in anything even resembling a protest, gathering, ect in uniform or use any military insignia for anything not implicitly sanctioned by your command.

I suppose they could have been part of the protest, but it just strikes me as unlikely due to the high probability of getting smashed by the UCMJ.

Maybe they were there for the strip club?

(Only half-kidding…. I think.)

447 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:30:24pm

re: #430 WindUpBird

Didn’t we do this to the Irish once upon a time?

Catholics/Irish first.
Then the Chinese.
Then the Eastern European Jews.
Then the Italians.
And the Germans during WWI
And the Japanese during WWII.
It’s a grand old American Tradition!

//Do I need to?

448 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:30:39pm

re: #441 Aceofwhat?

That’s just his tag, makes people ask :)

I love arguments like that.

They’re trying to figure out the manner in which they should decide which comic book character is stronger, out of a list of characters in a game!

449 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:30:40pm

re: #439 000G

I don’t think it’s likely, either.

Are american citizens, specifically civilians, allowed to use the Marine Corps flag in public to make political statements like that?

I really don’t know the answer to that. It would seem at the least to be extremely distasteful and disrespectful and at worst a violation of some federal statute.

450 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:31:00pm

re: #230 tradewind

Sure sounds as if that’s how the State Department sees it.
And funds it.

He’s ONE guy. They have lots of other people on payroll, ya know?

451 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:31:02pm

re: #437 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

Those guys could have been there for any reason. Maybe they had a recruiting office close by. We aren’t allowed to take part in anything even resembling a protest, gathering, ect in uniform or use any military insignia for anything not implicitly sanctioned by your command.

It looks to me like they’re just watching the protest from a respectful distance.

452 alexknyc  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:31:29pm

re: #439 000G

I don’t think it’s likely, either.

Are american citizens, specifically civilians, allowed to use the Marine Corps flag in public to make political statements like that?

I’m pretty sure the First Amendment would apply for civilians.

453 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:32:05pm

re: #451 elbruce

Maybe they just got out of their mandatory Christian Rock concert, and got disoriented?

454 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:32:07pm

re: #439 000G

Are american citizens, specifically civilians, allowed to use the Marine Corps flag in public to make political statements like that?

You can buy ‘em. I don’t think the USMC sues people for trademark infringement if they use one for free speech purposes, although I kinda think they should.

455 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:32:38pm

re: #453 windsagio

Maybe they just got out of their mandatory Christian Rock concert, and got disoriented?

Zing!

456 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:33:09pm

re: #454 elbruce

It’s just a flag anyways. Its not like the USMC is a sancrosanct, holy organization >>

457 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:33:15pm

re: #448 windsagio

They’re trying to figure out the manner in which they should decide which comic book character is stronger, out of a list of characters in a game!

i know. it was fascinating to read in the same way that the occasional deep-sea Discovery special is fascinating…it’s like watching a new species in their environment;)

458 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:33:21pm

re: #431 000G

It seems like uniformed people from the armed forces were on site: [Link: www.flickr.com…]

This made me go hmm:

[Link: www.flickr.com…]

wha?

oooo

459 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:33:48pm

re: #447 wlewisiii

Catholics/Irish first.
Then the Chinese.
Then the Eastern European Jews.
Then the Italians.
And the Germans during WWI
And the Japanese during WWII.
It’s a grand old American Tradition!

//Do I need to?

Call it “immigration wave hazing.” It’s like joining a big unruly frat.

///

460 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:33:55pm

re: #457 Aceofwhat?

Gotta obsessively follow the site for game news, but I get lost fast in that kind of crap >>

461 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:33:57pm

re: #453 windsagio

Maybe they just got out of their mandatory Christian Rock concert, and got disoriented?

STRYPER!!!

462 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:34:25pm

re: #430 WindUpBird

Didn’t we do this to the Irish once upon a time?

Well of course.

Because their first loyalty is to some guy overseas in a gown and a funny hat who supposedly has a direct line to the almighty. They claim he’s God’s personal representative here on Earth, and they all do whatever he says.

Italians, too.

//

463 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:34:26pm

re: #452 alexknyc

I’m pretty sure the First Amendment would apply for civilians.

I wasn’t arguing First Amendment but rather, as elbruce remarked, trademark or copyright or somesuch infringement issues.

464 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:34:40pm

OK Bbiab, gotta get my $5 worth of food for today :)

465 b_sharp  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:34:47pm

re: #351 windsagio

Let me just throw in here that I don’t think Tradewind is actually a woman at all, but is rather playing one on the internet.

I vote alien.

466 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:35:15pm

re: #456 windsagio

Its not like the USMC is a sancrosanct, holy organization >>

Ssshh… I wouldn’t say that where any conservatives could hear you…

/

467 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:35:28pm

re: #447 wlewisiii

Catholics/Irish first.
Then the Chinese.
Then the Eastern European Jews.
Then the Italians.
And the Germans during WWI
And the Japanese during WWII.
It’s a grand old American Tradition!

//Do I need to?

and we need to knock it off…although for some quick perspective, we’re much, much better than western europe. you want to hear some blatant racism, go hang out in France or Belgium and strike up a conversation about North Africans. Yowza.

468 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:35:39pm

re: #463 000G

I wasn’t arguing First Amendment but rather, as elbruce remarked, trademark or copyright or somesuch infringement issues.

I was thinking along the lines of it being illegal to wear the uniform when not authorized, and there might be some obtuse statute applying to the offical flags, insignia, ect..

469 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:35:58pm

re: #467 Aceofwhat?

Or go to england, and ask about “Pakis”

470 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:36:24pm

re: #271 tradewind

It has nothing to do with government or country.
It is the core philosophy of the religion itself, which does not include full equality for women, and that is just wrong.
It will have to change from within, or fail to gain acceptance in a free modern society.

How is it the ‘core philosphy’ of Islam in a way that it could not be argued to be the core philosophy also of Judaism and many Christian groups? I’ma let the Shakers off on this one.

471 windsagio  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:36:32pm

re: #466 elbruce

It’s a pet peeve I admit… the idolization of the police and military.

Now with that bomb having been thrown, I”m really off!

472 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:36:38pm

re: #466 elbruce

Ssshh… I wouldn’t say that where any conservatives could hear you…

/

And don’t say it around a Marine. To them the Corps is definitely a sacred organization. My job just happens to be in the Navy, for them it’s a way of life.

473 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:36:43pm

re: #331 Obdicut

In Oklahoma, a law has been passed that any woman wanting an abortion, including rape victims, has to be shown an ultrasound of the fetus and have it described to them. The law specifically mandates that the procedure producing the best image be used. In early pregnancy— when you’d get an abortion— that’s a vaginal wand. So, the law mandates that women who want an abortion have to have a vaginal wand inserted into them whether they want it or not.

It’s pretty damn disgusting.

If I were living in OK and was faced with this situation, I would not allow myself to define the procedure as a re-rape. I would think that is letting the assholes win.
I hope more women living in Oklahoma protest this patriarchal manipulation of the law.

474 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:36:47pm

re: #273 Cato the Elder

Dissing Mormons again, are we?

And Hindus, and many sects of Buddhism.

475 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:37:12pm

re: #466 elbruce

Ssshh… I wouldn’t say that where any conservatives could hear you…

/

It’s easy to co-opt “victims of 9/11” or “hallowed ground” because there really is no designated proprietor of these concepts. In the case of the Marine Corps, though, there is an actual organization whose name and reputation you could arguably tarnish by making political statements with their insignia.

476 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:38:14pm

re: #475 000G

It’s easy to co-opt “victims of 9/11” or “hallowed ground” because there really is no designated proprietor of these concepts. In the case of the Marine Corps, though, there is an actual organization whose name and reputation you could arguably tarnish by making political statements with their insignia.

I really think there might be a statute somewhere applying to that. It would be similar to someone wearing the insignia of the Marines without being authorized ect..

Not sure at all though.

477 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:38:25pm

re: #442 elbruce

I like how that picture also caught the awning of the New York Dolls gentleman’s club… “Desecration! Hallowed ground! Bark! Bark!” No? Nothing from the wingnuts on that?

By the way, it occurs to me that all of the people protesting Park51 seem to say they’re doing it in consideration of someone else; 9/11 victims’ families tend to be the most frequent sacred cow. How come nobody claims to be outraged on their own behalf? Did someone who lost a loved one in the WTC attack call Sarah Palin up and say “please speak for me?” Somehow I doubt it.

Ted Olsen spoke on his own behalf. He says build it. He says he’s outraged at the protestors, that they don’t seem to understand American values and constitutional rights.

478 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:38:55pm

re: #474 SanFranciscoZionist

And Hindus, and many sects of Buddhism.

c’mon SFZ


only 200 posts to the go, ,then, well,, you’re “HERE”!!!

479 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:38:59pm

re: #468 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

I was thinking along the lines of it being illegal to wear the uniform when not authorized, and there might be some obtuse statute applying to the offical flags, insignia, ect..

Well, if there was a statute that could be violated, not invoking that statute could be interpreted as tacit consent on part of the Marine Corps. I wonder how their PR and law departments would handle this if they got aware of this case and/or it becoming a more viral phenomenon.

Case law, anyone?

480 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:39:06pm

re: #469 windsagio

Or go to england, and ask about “Pakis”

Yeah, that thread we had here was ugly. I dislike being called a bigot because i’d never heard of a particular slur before…(a chorus which you didn’t join, to your credit)

481 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:39:12pm

re: #287 tradewind

Let me know the next time there’s a Methodist stoning, or an Episcopal Bishop okays the beating of wives, within limits./

And WHEEE go the goalposts!

482 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:39:25pm

re: #452 alexknyc

I’m pretty sure the First Amendment would apply for civilians.

There’s no first amendment right to violate trademarks.

483 alexknyc  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:42:44pm

re: #482 sagehen

There’s no first amendment right to violate trademarks.

I’m way out of my depth here but can a governmental organization like the Marines prevent the use of a symbol by a civilian? I’m not talking about the uniform, which would fall under criminal impersonation, but the flag.

Also, if there is a trademark, isn’t there a fair use component to trademark law?

484 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:43:30pm

re: #325 captdiggs

You know, Iran doesn’t have any gays.

I think they hung them all.

“I know you say that there’s no gays in Iran, but you’re in New York now, baby!”

What would we DO without Islam, anyway? No matter what horrors go on against women and gays in the Western world, we’re always able to point at Iran and Saudi. If they got their act together, who would we point at for being worse than us?

485 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:44:53pm

re: #327 wozzablog

Ok, just this once - i’m taking it.

“then” was Eire until the late 70’s - the bastion of liberated Christian thought… and Africa - Christianity in Africa - where they practice the Old Time christian faith.

“then and now” - puhlease.

Spousal rape was outlawed in North Carolina in 1993.

Just sayin’.

South Dakota was the first state to outlaw it, so you Dakotans, be proud!!

486 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:45:04pm

re: #483 alexknyc

I’m way out of my depth here but can a governmental organization like the Marines prevent the use of a symbol by a civilian? I’m not talking about the uniform, which would fall under criminal impersonation, but the flag.

Also, if there is a trademark, isn’t there a fair use component to trademark law?

Im curious too. I’m gonna check my facebook and see if any officer types from my command are on, they might know.

487 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:45:43pm

re: #337 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

No shit. Learn something new every day. I’m telling you the farther you live from an ocean the more batshit insane you are. Note to self, keep just flying over Oklahoma and never actually set foot there.

My husband was born in Oklahoma, but he shows no indication of wanting to go back.

488 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:46:42pm

re: #271 tradewind

It is the core philosophy of the religion itself, which does not include full equality for women, and that is just wrong.

The bible is quite clear that it’s a core philosophy of Christianity too, both in the Old and New Testaments. Let me know if you want me to go fetch a sampling those verses.

If today’s Christians aren’t practicing those strictures, then one could argue that they aren’t practicing properly. If you grant that Christianity can ignore those strictures and still be Christianity, then you have to grant the same leeway to Islam.

489 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:46:55pm
490 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:47:39pm

re: #487 SanFranciscoZionist

My husband was born in Oklahoma, but he shows no indication of wanting to go back.

337 down

150 to go

C’Mon SFZ ,,,, the finish (and all Scandinavian) line is near!!

491 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:47:41pm

re: #344 Bubblehead_Sonar_Dude

I am sorry. I have never lived more than 10 miles from the oceans, on both coast’s. It even effected my choice of military branch. Was gonna go Air Force but didn’t wanna get stuck in some god forsaken base in middle america crazy land.

I have nothing against the inhabitants of the middle part of the continent, but the idea of being that far away from the ocean kind of scares me.

492 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:49:18pm

re: #489 SanFranciscoZionist

Pretty picture. Where are they?

Samarkand

493 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:49:51pm

re: #346 Cato the Elder

My Moonbat Brother (MMB™) still thinks the Rather forgeries were somehow real, despite being forgeries.

Cognitive dissidence, anyone?

‘Truthiness’ is, I believe, the phrase Colbert came up with to describe that sort of thing.

494 MJ  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:51:48pm

re: #489 SanFranciscoZionist

Pretty picture. Where are they?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

495 alexknyc  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:52:16pm

re: #492 000G

Samarkand

If you ever get to Paris, there is a spectacular Museum of Jewish Heritage with photos like that one.

Unfortunately, the impression you’d get (if you didn’t know better) was that this was a dead culture from ancient history.

496 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:52:16pm

re: #359 captdiggs

You know, for some reason I’m just not buying “don’t ask, don’t tell” as the moral equivalent of mass hangings…but that’s just me.

No one is saying it’s equivalent, but trade did not ask for Islam or Islamic countries to effectively moderate or abolish specific brutal customs, she asked for complete equality of men and women, something that’s very rare in any society.

497 MJ  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:56:44pm

re: #495 alexknyc

If you ever get to Paris, there is a spectacular Museum of Jewish Heritage with photos like that one.

Unfortunately, the impression you’d get (if you didn’t know better) was that this was a dead culture from ancient history.

The photo was taken between 1905-1915 with 1910-15 being more probable.
Unfortunately, that culture was destroyed years ago.
Gorsky or Gorskii’s three color negatives ended up in the Library of Congress where digital reconstruction re-created his three color images.

498 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:58:35pm

re: #430 WindUpBird

Didn’t we do this to the Irish once upon a time?

And the Jews, and the Poles, and the Italians, and the Chinese, and the Japanese, and the Germans, and, well, if it immigrated, it was described as unassimilable, violent, and a threat to America.

499 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 2:58:55pm

re: #495 alexknyc

If you ever get to Paris, there is a spectacular Museum of Jewish Heritage with photos like that one.

Unfortunately, the impression you’d get (if you didn’t know better) was that this was a dead culture from ancient history.

Pretty much all of Europe, especially Eastern Europe, was once vital with Jewish life.

As much as the Holocaust eradicated jewish life in Europe, it also eradicated Europe within the jewish tradition and experience. I think Europe’s future got a lot worse for that. In a very real sense, Europe lost much of its history (and history is never just the past).

500 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:01:37pm

re: #442 elbruce

I like how that picture also caught the awning of the New York Dolls gentleman’s club… “Desecration! Hallowed ground! Bark! Bark!” No? Nothing from the wingnuts on that?

By the way, it occurs to me that all of the people protesting Park51 seem to say they’re doing it in consideration of someone else; 9/11 victims’ families tend to be the most frequent sacred cow. How come nobody claims to be outraged on their own behalf? Did someone who lost a loved one in the WTC attack call Sarah Palin up and say “please speak for me?” Somehow I doubt it.

I read an article in Newsweek that profiled two women who both lost firefighter sons on 9/11 at the WTC.

One strongly favors the mosque, the other is strongly against it.

Neither of them is playing with the shite-disturbers, although the one against it says she feels abandoned by the Democrats on this.

They both seemed like nice ladies.

501 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:03:18pm

re: #467 Aceofwhat?

and we need to knock it off…although for some quick perspective, we’re much, much better than western europe. you want to hear some blatant racism, go hang out in France or Belgium and strike up a conversation about North Africans. Yowza.

Or England, and, well, anyone. Pakistanis in particular.

502 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:06:29pm

re: #497 MJ

The photo was taken between 1905-1915 with 1910-15 being more probable.
Unfortunately, that culture was destroyed years ago.
Gorsky or Gorskii’s three color negatives ended up in the Library of Congress where digital reconstruction re-created his three color images.

Some of the photographs you find out there are just remarkable.

503 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:08:07pm

re: #499 000G

Pretty much all of Europe, especially Eastern Europe, was once vital with Jewish life.

As much as the Holocaust eradicated jewish life in Europe, it also eradicated Europe within the jewish tradition and experience. I think Europe’s future got a lot worse for that. In a very real sense, Europe lost much of its history (and history is never just the past).

Jewish culture was simply gutted, in so many ways. First, the Shoah, and then the expulsion from the Arab countries. In a matter of twenty years, everything changed.

504 Winny Spencer  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:11:29pm

re: #498 SanFranciscoZionist

Don’t forget the Swedes!

505 MJ  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:16:37pm

re: #502 SanFranciscoZionist

Some of the photographs you find out there are just remarkable.

Yes.
Gorky’s color separation images was based upon a process developed by A. Meithe in Germany. Meithe’s process was in turn based upon the American Frederic Ives who patented and sold three color images as early 1892 though he didn’t really get up and going until 1898. All these processes are based on the research of two Frenchman- Louis Du Hauron and Charles Cros who described them as early as 1869. James Clerk Maxwell, the Scottish physicist is actually credited with the first color image taken in 1861:

Image: File:Tartan_Ribbon.jpg

Most folks don’t realize it but their are many images of World War I taken with autochromes- a process commercially introduced in 1907 by Louis and Auguste Lumiere, the same folks who invented the first practical cinema.

506 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:17:31pm

re: #488 elbruce

The bible is quite clear that it’s a core philosophy of Christianity too, both in the Old and New Testaments. Let me know if you want me to go fetch a sampling those verses.

Please, do fetch me your favorite NT verse showing that Jesus intended us to dominate women as second-class citizens. Do your worst.

(don’t worry…you can’t offend me or provoke any flames…i just don’t think you’ve debated enough brilliant, warm, gorgeous Christians yet)

(yes, i am a dude)

507 TedStriker  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:21:18pm

re: #491 SanFranciscoZionist

I have nothing against the inhabitants of the middle part of the continent, but the idea of being that far away from the ocean kind of scares me.

I’ve never seen the oceans firsthand or experienced its salty spray, but I’ve dreamt of it sometimes; hopefully, I’ll be visiting the beaches of Florida next winter.

508 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:24:55pm

re: #491 SanFranciscoZionist

I have nothing against the inhabitants of the middle part of the continent, but the idea of being that far away from the ocean kind of scares me.

I’ve seen the ocean but find the Great Lakes far more comforting. Probably why I was a ground pounder in the Army and still stick to my mid-western roots.

509 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:26:36pm

re: #507 talon_262

I’ve never seen the oceans firsthand or experienced its salty spray, but I’ve dreamt of it sometimes; hopefully, I’ll be visiting the beaches of Florida next winter.

I hope you get to go. The vastness and power of the ocean is hypnotic.

510 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:32:10pm

re: #507 talon_262

I’ve never seen the oceans firsthand or experienced its salty spray, but I’ve dreamt of it sometimes; hopefully, I’ll be visiting the beaches of Florida next winter.

where in Florida? i live in Jacksonville, and both Marjoriemoon and CCA live on the Tampa side…

511 sagehen  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:35:14pm

re: #506 Aceofwhat?

Please, do fetch me your favorite NT verse showing that Jesus intended us to dominate women as second-class citizens. Do your worst.

(don’t worry…you can’t offend me or provoke any flames…i just don’t think you’ve debated enough brilliant, warm, gorgeous Christians yet)

(yes, i am a dude)

Jesus didn’t say such things, but Paul sure did.

512 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:35:40pm

re: #511 sagehen

Jesus didn’t say such things, but Paul sure did.

what’s your favorite (or least favorite) example?

513 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:40:44pm

awww, come on…no one wants to get into the greek minutiae and local context of the NTestament stuff with me? *kicks sand dejectedly*

514 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:43:27pm

re: #513 Aceofwhat?


King James okay?

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

515 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:47:19pm

re: #506 Aceofwhat?

Please, do fetch me your favorite NT verse showing that Jesus intended us to dominate women as second-class citizens. Do your worst.

Homework time… here’s a sampler.

1 Corinthians 14:34

women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

1 Timothy 2:15

But women will be saved through childbearing — if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

1 Peter 3:5

For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,

Ephesians 5:22

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:24

Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Colossians 3:18

Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

1 Peter 3:1

Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,

Now, I’m not going to claim that everything in the NT is what Jesus intended. I personally don’t think that’s the case. Nor am I going to claim that Christians are bound by strictures in the OT, because I disagree with that as well. But many Christians use lots of verses from all across the OT and NT, so it would seem that these are applicable as well.

In fact, many of the strictures in Islam regarding treatment of women come right out of the Old Testament, which is part of their scripture as well. So when some anti-Islamist starts crying about them stoning women, it’s fair to point out that the very same scriptures that mandate that are technically as much a part of Christianity as Islam.

516 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:56:24pm

re: #514 Obdicut

excellent. let’s skip to the best part, and then we can go back to the others.

“11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.”

hesuchios = silence, peacefulness, stillness, keeping one’s seat, etc. It’s only translated as “silence” with regard to women, which tells me that it is the translators (rather than Paul) who are making biased statements. Men are supposed to learn peacefully, too.

Also, men are instructed to learn the gospel in subjection. It references subjection to God and the subject matter/teacher, not to someone else in the room. Remember, Paul is addressing a congregation that was in some turmoil and is basically telling everyone to adjust their attitude.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

This is horribly mistranslated, and the mistranslation is unworthy of Christianity, but the original is very interesting.

authenteō is ONLY used here by Paul; as far as i remember, he always used exousio for “official authority”.

“authenteō”, elsewhere in history, is far better translated as “to lord yourself over” or “ruthlessly dominate”.

So a non-sexist translation would be “I will not suffer a woman to be ruthlessly domineering over the man, but to be tranquil.”

Seems like good advice to me.

517 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 3:58:34pm

re: #515 elbruce

let me know what you think about the post above. you raised lots of points, and i don’t mind getting to them all, but in online conversations it often behooves us to move linearly from point to point to avoid getting distracted.

so please feel free to either object to one of the points i raised above or to accept my etymology and move the discussion to a different verse from your post.

and thanks for the response-

518 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:00:17pm

re: #515 elbruce


Now, I’m not going to claim that everything in the NT is what Jesus intended. I personally don’t think that’s the case. Nor am I going to claim that Christians are bound by strictures in the OT, because I disagree with that as well. But many Christians use lots of verses from all across the OT and NT, so it would seem that these are applicable as well.

In fact, many of the strictures in Islam regarding treatment of women come right out of the Old Testament, which is part of their scripture as well. So when some anti-Islamist starts crying about them stoning women, it’s fair to point out that the very same scriptures that mandate that are technically as much a part of Christianity Judaism as Islam.

FTFY. The new testament supercedes the old where there is contradiction. Testament = covenant. Jesus brought a new covenant. Granted, far too many Christians don’t get this…it’s a huge peeve of mine with regard to my fellow christians.

519 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:00:29pm

back in 4 min…please continue

520 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:05:38pm

re: #517 Aceofwhat?

let me know what you think about the post above

That sort of thing is why I prefer to cite the NIV rather than the KJV. It uses later scholarship in retranslating directly from older texts. I don’t fancy myself to be a linguistic scholar, so in using the NIV I’m relying on the best modern scholarship I know of for translation, something which is arguable when one cites the KJV.

521 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:07:07pm

re: #516 Aceofwhat?

It’s clear as day, Ace.


This is sad.

522 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:11:02pm

re: #518 Aceofwhat?

FTFY. The new testament supercedes the old where there is contradiction. Testament = covenant. Jesus brought a new covenant. Granted, far too many Christians don’t get this…it’s a huge peeve of mine with regard to my fellow christians.

There’s a huge host of things that many Christians ignore from the OT without really being able to point to a specific contradiction from the NT. I don’t know where in the NT it says it’s OK to eat pork or shellfish, to mix meat with dairy or to wear clothes combining multiple fabric threads. Yet they’ll shout about “teh gays” all day and all night.

It seems to me that practicing any religion in a reasonable fashion necessarily involves a certain amount of picking and choosing which parts of it seem more resonant with ethical living and which should - if not explicitly rejected - at least be downplayed to the point of functional irrelevance. Discussions about what those parts are and why pretty much constitute the practice of theology.

523 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:11:34pm

Whatever claims you may make about the original translation— the King James version represents the actual English language version that was used, for the a long period of time. I know for a fact that in the Latin, it was even more direct; women were subject to the man, lesser.

The religion, as it truly existed, carried with it the inherent lesser nature of women. This is alive today in most branches of Christianity; the furor over female priests, pastors, etc. is a good example of this.

The New Testament exists as a translated thing, as an interpreted thing.

524 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:13:39pm

re: #522 elbruce

In fact, Jesus specifically says he’s not overthrowing the old laws.

The disciples didn’t like that much, though, so they made sure to interpret differently.

525 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:15:06pm

The New International Version is great. re: #522 elbruce

526 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:17:51pm

re: #525 prairiefire

The New International Version is great.


Really>

Here’s that passage in the NIV:

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

527 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:19:09pm

re: #526 Obdicut

I didn’t mean to bold that part in particular. But the passage is just as clear as it was in the King James version.

528 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:20:19pm

i’m back like Vanilla Ice, minus the…well…everything.

529 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:21:39pm

re: #521 Obdicut

It’s clear as day, Ace.

This is sad.

i don’t understand. what is as clear as day?

530 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:23:07pm

re: #526 Obdicut

I receive inspiration from reading the Bible and through the Holy Ghost, Obdi. I’m a modern woman in modern times, reading an ancient text. The Lord speaks to me through the ancient text, even still

531 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:23:25pm

re: #529 Aceofwhat?

i don’t understand. what is as clear as day?

The passage from Paul. Every aspect of it, from mentioning Eve’s sin, to the praise heaped on ‘man’ first, shows that it is a passage that raises men above women.

532 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:24:52pm

re: #530 prairiefire

I receive inspiration from reading the Bible and through the Holy Ghost, Obdi. I’m a modern woman in modern times, reading an ancient text. The Lord speaks to me through the ancient text, even still

That’s nice.

It doesn’t change the fact that, in that translation of the bible, that passage is misogynistic and puts women on a lower plane than men.

It is pretty interesting seeing the tensions between what Jesus said, and the directions the apostles attempted to steer the religion in.

533 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:30:37pm

re: #522 elbruce

There’s a huge host of things that many Christians ignore from the OT without really being able to point to a specific contradiction from the NT. I don’t know where in the NT it says it’s OK to eat pork or shellfish, to mix meat with dairy or to wear clothes combining multiple fabric threads. Yet they’ll shout about “teh gays” all day and all night.

9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

you were saying;)

534 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:31:49pm

re: #533 Aceofwhat?

Paul was definitely an interesting person. I just wish he’d been a better person.

535 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:32:10pm

re: #485 SanFranciscoZionist

Spousal rape was outlawed in North Carolina in 1993.

Just sayin’.

South Dakota was the first state to outlaw it, so you Dakotans, be proud!!

I knew there were repeals like that relatively recently - but didn’t have any immediately to hand.

536 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:32:35pm

re: #531 Obdicut

The passage from Paul. Every aspect of it, from mentioning Eve’s sin, to the praise heaped on ‘man’ first, shows that it is a passage that raises men above women.

we can’t generalize here. one point at a time. is there anything about the specific verses i started with that remains to be discussed, or do you accept that a natural translation of the two (most controversial) verses that i picked removes the bias?

if you want to move to another verse, just pick one and i’ll elaborate. i’ve spent a lot of time on this, and i enjoy the discussion.

537 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:34:14pm

re: #536 Aceofwhat?

we can’t generalize here. one point at a time. is there anything about the specific verses i started with that remains to be discussed, or do you accept that a natural translation of the two (most controversial) verses that i picked removes the bias?

I in no way agree that you are an expert on biblical translation, no.


if you want to move to another verse, just pick one and i’ll elaborate. i’ve spent a lot of time on this, and i enjoy the discussion.

Are you ignoring what I wrote for any particular reason?

538 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:35:33pm

re: #523 Obdicut

The religion, as it truly existed, carried with it the inherent lesser nature of women.

Nearly all ancient cultures carried with them the inherent lesser nature of women. Blaming any religious text of antiquity for subjugating women is kind of like blaming ancient cultures for not harnessing electricity.

539 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:36:37pm

re: #538 elbruce

Nearly all ancient cultures carried with them the inherent lesser nature of women. Blaming any religious text of antiquity for subjugating women is kind of like blaming ancient cultures for not harnessing electricity.

I’m not blaming it. I’m noting it’s presence.

540 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:38:38pm

re: #533 Aceofwhat?

9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

you were saying;)

If God sends down some pork flying from heaven on a magic sheet and tells you to eat it, sure it’s OK to eat that pork. But I don’t see anything here overturning Leviticus without extensively expanding on Peter’s singular experience, which would pretty much involve writing your own biblical passages.

541 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:39:28pm

re: #526 Obdicut

Really>

Here’s that passage in the NIV:

re: #537 Obdicut

I in no way agree that you are an expert on biblical translation, no.

Are you ignoring what I wrote for any particular reason?

1. i was not asking you to do so. i was telling you that i’m interested this subject and have spent a lot of time on it only as a personal insight into my interests, nothing more. no need to read it as an attempt to claim authority.

2. perhaps i missed what you wrote…if so, i apologize. what point do i need to address next?

542 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:41:11pm

re: #540 elbruce

If God sends down some pork flying from heaven on a magic sheet and tells you to eat it, sure it’s OK to eat that pork. But I don’t see anything here overturning Leviticus without extensively expanding on Peter’s singular experience, which would pretty much involve writing your own biblical passages.

wait, you mean you think that Peter went to the trouble to write this down because it was ok to eat that one pig on that one day?

If God tells you that no person is unclean because of their dietary habits, then I can eat meat of my choosing, because i will not be unclean as a result. Follow?

543 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:41:16pm

re: #541 Aceofwhat?

If you weren’t trying to claim authority, why are you trying to claim your translation should be accepted as accurate?

And see my 523.

544 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:43:06pm

re: #543 Obdicut

If you weren’t trying to claim authority, why are you trying to claim your translation should be accepted as accurate?

And see my 523.

I am offering a translation, and in doing so, elucidating the actual word used so that you may google it for yourself if you wish to check my work. It seemed like the civil thing to do…

and now i’m on to 523, with apologies for having missed it.

545 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:45:37pm

re: #523 Obdicut

Whatever claims you may make about the original translation— the King James version represents the actual English language version that was used, for the a long period of time. I know for a fact that in the Latin, it was even more direct; women were subject to the man, lesser.

The religion, as it truly existed, carried with it the inherent lesser nature of women. This is alive today in most branches of Christianity; the furor over female priests, pastors, etc. is a good example of this.

The New Testament exists as a translated thing, as an interpreted thing.

And I submit that Christianity is responsible for the sexist translation. I make no excuses for that. However, that is fundamentally different than saying ‘Jesus and/or his apostles offered fundamentally sexist instructions’. It is only the latter that i wish to debate; the translations have led to a great many injustices that a great many Christians will answer for.

546 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:46:30pm

re: #544 Aceofwhat?

I am offering a translation, and in doing so, elucidating the actual word used so that you may google it for yourself if you wish to check my work. It seemed like the civil thing to do…

I don’t have to check it to know there is no agreed-upon translation with the nuance that you describe.

Can you cite the scholar you got that from? And can you explain why you’re referring to the ‘original’, when there are no originals?

547 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:48:45pm

re: #545 Aceofwhat?

And I submit that Christianity is responsible for the sexist translation. I make no excuses for that. However, that is fundamentally different than saying ‘Jesus and/or his apostles offered fundamentally sexist instructions’. It is only the latter that i wish to debate; the translations have led to a great many injustices that a great many Christians will answer for.

We have no idea, and never will, what Jesus actually said.

Paul’s manifold writings on women all add up to a perfectly standard, in fact, liberal for the time, misogyny towards women. It is still there.

548 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:52:16pm

re: #546 Obdicut

I don’t have to check it to know there is no agreed-upon translation with the nuance that you describe.

Can you cite the scholar you got that from? And can you explain why you’re referring to the ‘original’, when there are no originals?

the greek. Paul wrote in greek. by “original” i mean the original greek version; i apologize for the confusion.

give me ten seconds, and i’ll have a random, nonbiblical translation for you.

549 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:53:00pm

re: #542 Aceofwhat?

wait, you mean you think that Peter went to the trouble to write this down because it was ok to eat that one pig on that one day?

Yep. Jewish theologians generally do a better job of making clear distinctions regarding whether God is talking in the particular moment to a particular person vs. laying down a law for everyone to follow. But even without that method, it’s quite a bit of an extrapolation to suggest that Peter’s experience establishes a new rule.

You’d think God would mention that if so. Or at least provide a list of what food items were on the sheet, so we’d know what was added to the list of approved foods.

re: #542 Aceofwhat?

If God tells you that no person is unclean because of their dietary habits, then I can eat meat of my choosing, because i will not be unclean as a result. Follow?

That’s not what was said there:

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.”

I don’t see anywhere that God is saying no one is unclean because of their dietary habits. Rather, it says God “cleansed” (or at least exempted) the food on the sheet personally.

550 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:55:01pm

re: #547 Obdicut

We have no idea, and never will, what Jesus actually said.

Based on the number of preserved physical fragments, and the average age of them, I can say confidently that we have far more idea of what Jesus said than we do of what Socrates or Guatama Buddha ever said. Qauntitatively, the New Testament has a vastly greater confidence level than any other book of similar antiquity.

551 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:55:45pm

re: #548 Aceofwhat?

the greek. Paul wrote in greek. by “original” i mean the original greek version; i apologize for the confusion.

Do you seriously not know we don’t have an original version from Paul?

It’s all copies. Many are copies of copies of copies. That is not ‘original’ in any way, shape, or form.

552 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:55:52pm

re: #546 Obdicut

I don’t have to check it to know there is no agreed-upon translation with the nuance that you describe.

here

a strong’s translation and a thayer’s greek lexicon translation.

[Link: www.bibletools.org…]

553 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:57:17pm

re: #550 elbruce

Based on the number of preserved physical fragments, and the average age of them, I can say confidently that we have far more idea of what Jesus said than we do of what Socrates or Guatama Buddha ever said. Qauntitatively, the New Testament has a vastly greater confidence level than any other book of similar antiquity.

That really doesn’t matter much. What I said is still true. We don’t, and never will now, what Jesus said. Even if we had the lost originals from the apostles, we wouldn’t know, since they wrote contradictory versions of what he said.

554 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 4:59:43pm

re: #552 Aceofwhat?

Even accepting that translation, there is no reason to translate it idiomatically in the way that you did. Unless one wants to translate it in that fashion.

How do you then reconcile the logic of Eve being deceived, after, and Adam not? Simply there as color text, bearing no logical relation to the passage that immediately preceded it?

555 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:01:18pm

re: #549 elbruce

Yep. Jewish theologians generally do a better job of making clear distinctions regarding whether God is talking in the particular moment to a particular person vs. laying down a law for everyone to follow. But even without that method, it’s quite a bit of an extrapolation to suggest that Peter’s experience establishes a new rule.

You’d think God would mention that if so. Or at least provide a list of what food items were on the sheet, so we’d know what was added to the list of approved foods.

Nah. The tradition of teaching through parables established quite well that a significant story should indeed be extrapolated. It’s not at all a stretch to understand Peter’s vision as a revelation that he was expected to share, although it’s not just about meat. Anyway, you may disagree with me on the extrapolation range, but not on whether there is any basis on which to declare that i’m no longer bound by kosher dietary law as a Christian and gentile.


That’s not what was said there:

I don’t see anywhere that God is saying no one is unclean because of their dietary habits. Rather, it says God “cleansed” (or at least exempted) the food on the sheet personally.

You didn’t read far enough in chapter 10.

27Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. 29So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”

556 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:02:26pm

It might be worth a reminder at this point of the context of this diversion. It was in reference to Christians telling Muslims what Muslims’ “core beliefs” are. I was just pointing out that similar arguments could be used to enforce all sorts of silly beliefs on Christians as well, including many of those enforced on Muslims. Specific citations I’ve presented are just examples of where that line of arguent could go.

I think that most evangelical Christians would agree with the proposition that proper interpretation of the bible involves a certain amount of self-reflection, i.e. “searching your heart.” Scripture is like a mirror that you hold up to your own life and to the world around you for insight and guidance. But it provides only a relatively fuzzy picture, and it’s natural that people might disagree about what they see there.

As such, a nonbeliever such as myself simply isn’t equipped to tell you what you do or even should believe regarding your own religion. I lack the key component involved in proper scriptural interpretation, that being faith. I can talk about it in broad terms of historical theology and logic, but when it comes right down to it I’m not the one taking it all the way from text to persoanl practice. The concept of telling someone else what they believe is patently ridiculous on the face of it anyway.

Similarly, a Christian can’t tell a Muslim what he or she believes either.

557 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:03:57pm

re: #556 elbruce

Very good points.

558 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:06:06pm

re: #556 elbruce

I disagree that the writings can’t be interpreted without ‘faith’, but agree with the rest.

559 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:09:44pm

re: #554 Obdicut

Even accepting that translation, there is no reason to translate it idiomatically in the way that you did. Unless one wants to translate it in that fashion.

Oh. Well, fine - take Thayer literally - it becomes “i will not suffer a woman to exercise dominion over or be an absolute master of…”. Hardly sexist.

How do you then reconcile the logic of Eve being deceived, after, and Adam not? Simply there as color text, bearing no logical relation to the passage that immediately preceded it?

So this passage is less about translation and more about context. Remember, in this book, Paul is writing to Timothy who was sent to Ephesus and encountered some unsound offshoot of Christianity; the primary feature was that an unusual number of women were involved in spreading and promoting something that was no longer Christianity.

So Paul starts the verse with, colloquially, a Genesis parallel. That is, “in Genesis, a woman was responsible for a deception, and you have that here too.” So the instructions for Ephesus were, ladies, Eve sinned too but was redeemed through childbirth, i.e. being a good mother and example to her children.

In context: ladies, you’re guilty of deception, just like Eve. and just like Eve, you can get back on the straight and narrow by raising your family right.

560 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:11:45pm

re: #556 elbruce

and i quite disagree with what tradewind said. it is not for us to say that the core of Islam is anything. at most, we can point out that a tragically large number of Muslims are interpreting their religion in a manner that is obviously biased against women.

how’s that?

561 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:13:03pm

re: #559 Aceofwhat?

Oh. Well, fine - take Thayer literally - it becomes “i will not suffer a woman to exercise dominion over or be an absolute master of…”. Hardly sexist.
.

Why are you choosing that one meaning out of the four as the ‘literal’ meaning?


So this passage is less about translation and more about context. Remember, in this book, Paul is writing to Timothy who was sent to Ephesus and encountered some unsound offshoot of Christianity; the primary feature was that an unusual number of women were involved in spreading and promoting something that was no longer Christianity.

So Paul starts the verse with, colloquially, a Genesis parallel. That is, “in Genesis, a woman was responsible for a deception, and you have that here too.” So the instructions for Ephesus were, ladies, Eve sinned too but was redeemed through childbirth, i.e. being a good mother and example to her children.

In context: ladies, you’re guilty of deception, just like Eve. and just like Eve, you can get back on the straight and narrow by raising your family right.

So your claim is that this passage is not meant to refer to all women, but just those particularly troublesome women? And that it is only in this context that Eve being the one deceived is important?

It’s basically just a dishonest political ploy— and that’s a defense of the text, for you?

Why were there no female apostles?

562 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:13:25pm

re: #555 Aceofwhat?

Nah. The tradition of teaching through parables established quite well that a significant story should indeed be extrapolated.

After completing each parable, Jesus discussed the meaning thereof, and that part was written down as well.

In this kind of discussion, I much prefer the Torah scholarship methods of Midrash, which divide modes of interpretation into reasonable categories exactly to prevent this kind of confusion. Primarily the distinction between Halakha and Aggadic portions; i.e. between direct commands and stories. Each would have specific interpretation methods involving how much extrapolation is allowable, etc.

re: #555 Aceofwhat?

You didn’t read far enough in chapter 10.

27Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. 29So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”

If I’m going to take Peter at his word on this part, there seem to be three options:

1. Never call anyone impure or unclean. Sounds cool, but that not only lets gays off the hook, it kind of eliminates the entire notion of “sin.”

2. Don’t call someone impure or unclean just for being a Gentile. That makes sense in the context, and is well within Jesus’ similar references regarding hanging out with Samaratans and the like.

But I don’t make the connection with dietary laws only here.

563 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:14:58pm

re: #560 Aceofwhat?

at most, we can point out that a tragically large number of Muslims are interpreting their religion in a manner that is obviously biased against women.

I completely agree.

564 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:16:30pm

re: #563 elbruce

I completely agree.

One of the funniest things for me is west-coast crunchy granola types who are really into Buddhism, and think that it’s not sexist.

In Thailand, Buddhist women say a prayer hoping to be reincarnated as men.

565 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:17:59pm

re: #561 Obdicut

Why are you choosing that one meaning out of the four as the ‘literal’ meaning?

tsk, tsk. that was two meanings out of four, and i picked two because the third is redundant and the fourth mentions ‘murder’, which seems a little out of scope.

3) an absolute master

4) to govern, exercise dominion over one

tu comprends?

So your claim is that this passage is not meant to refer to all women, but just those particularly troublesome women? And that it is only in this context that Eve being the one deceived is important?

absolutely. remember, Timothy is a letter to a person, not a general sermon to all christians everywhere. context is vital.

Why were there no female apostles?

Probably because there weren’t women fishermen at the time. But i have a bevy of examples of Jesus specifically acting contrary to cultural norms in order to demonstrate how women were meant to be treated without bias, if you wish.

566 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:18:47pm

re: #565 Aceofwhat?

tsk, tsk. that was two meanings out of four, and i picked two because the third is redundant and the fourth mentions ‘murder’, which seems a little out of scope.

Never mind, if you’re just going to condescend, I have no interest in talking to you.

567 prairiefire  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:19:21pm

re: #564 Obdicut

One of the funniest things for me is west-coast crunchy granola types who are really into Buddhism, and think that it’s not sexist.

In Thailand, Buddhist women say a prayer hoping to be reincarnated as men.

How about Asian Americans who are Neocons and Buddhist? I have met a few. I think that’s a contradiction.

568 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:21:03pm

re: #562 elbruce

If I’m going to take Peter at his word on this part, there seem to be three options:

1. Never call anyone impure or unclean. Sounds cool, but that not only lets gays off the hook, it kind of eliminates the entire notion of “sin.”

2. Don’t call someone impure or unclean just for being a Gentile. That makes sense in the context, and is well within Jesus’ similar references regarding hanging out with Samaratans and the like.

But I don’t make the connection with dietary laws only here.

Heh, i like the third option the best/

But in seriousness, sure, #2 plus the example used was significant in that it was dietary, and that excluding genetics, dietary customs were one of the most obvious distinctions between Christian Jews and Christian gentiles…a distinction that I believe God wished to abolish.

569 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:23:09pm

re: #566 Obdicut

Never mind, if you’re just going to condescend, I have no interest in talking to you.

it was light snark. surely you, who often use a much heavier grade of snark, can forgive a little light sarcasm.

seriously - i meant nothing condescending at all, and i quite sincerely apologize if i accidentally conveyed any. i will try to make my humorous asides more humorous…or not try as hard…sometimes that works better.

anyway, sorry again.

570 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:26:24pm

re: #561 Obdicut

Why are you choosing that one meaning out of the four as the ‘literal’ meaning?

The fact that he is choosing one gets back to my whole rant about how people of faith really can’t fully go all the way in interpreting a passage. We can talk about certain logical consistencies or inconsistencies, or say “if you believe A then this would mean X, but if you believe B then this would mean Y.” We don’t actually have to pick an interpretation to live by, because we don’t live by it.

571 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:27:11pm

(in 570, make that people not of faith. sorry)

572 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:30:24pm

re: #570 elbruce

The fact that he is choosing one gets back to my whole rant about how people of faith really can’t fully go all the way in interpreting a passage. We can talk about certain logical consistencies or inconsistencies, or say “if you believe A then this would mean X, but if you believe B then this would mean Y.” We don’t actually have to pick an interpretation to live by, because we don’t live by it.

wrong. there are three relatively synonymous translations, of which i used two just to avoid only choosing one. the fourth translation shown is “one who with his own hands kills another or himself”, which seems a little out of context.

so no. the fact that i can choose the accepted translation, excluding cases of REDRUM, gets back to my whole rant about paying attention to the original greek. it’s often quite illuminating…

573 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:39:46pm

My point is merely that ultimately, you have to decide what you personally believe regarding the meaning of these passages. I don’t. I can only walk a given interpretation so far before I come up against the chasm of faith, and must stop there.

574 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:46:49pm

re: #573 elbruce

My point is merely that ultimately, you have to decide what you personally believe regarding the meaning of these passages. I don’t. I can only walk a given interpretation so far before I come up against the chasm of faith, and must stop there.

Yes. There isn’t a way to get there without faith. And we do all have to make personal choices about belief.

For me, as a young teenager, i ran smack into the creation story as a clear obstacle to my faith. After buckling down and looking through the etymology, i found that there is a perfectly acceptable (linguistically speaking) way to translate the creation story that removes the contradictions with established science.

In short, one can never actually PROVE that one’s translation is correct. I can only show that a highly valid translation exists which removes the offending connotation, whether it’s about “submissive women” or “6 days of creation”. I can’t prove that i’m right; i can only show that the NT is not unequivocally biased, hateful, or immoral.

575 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:55:19pm

re: #6 tradewind

The moderate muslim Republican, as a group is what is largely missing.
They are here, so they should speak up. Forcefully, and without equivocation.
That hasn’t happened. In all seriousness, I really do not know why.


Fixed that for you.

576 elbruce  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 5:56:04pm

re: #574 Aceofwhat?

Yes. There isn’t a way to get there without faith. And we do all have to make personal choices about belief.

Right. The process of personal theology, that is to say how you interpret the meanings involved, is how you get from text to practice. And practice need not adhere to the bluntest, most direct interpretations to be found on the face of the text.

The only people who I would take rational umbrage are those who claim to be “Biblical literalists,” that is those who claim that their interpretations are the most literal (blunt/direct) meanings of the text, and then use that claim to try to enforce pretty much anything they want.

I’ll grant that Acts 10 may be suggestive that dietary restrictions are no longer binding on Christians, but it seems to me to be a broader interpretation than others available. Many Christians, such as Seventh Day Adventists, disagree with that interpretation.

Not being personally invested in Christianity, that’s not something that I have to wrestle with. If I did, then I’d probably end up going by the same interpretation as you do.

577 Aceofwhat?  Sun, Aug 22, 2010 6:02:06pm

re: #576 elbruce

this is why i’m at LGF. because it’s really really hard to find another place where this sort of discussion can be held cordially and at a relatively high level.

thanks for the chat-

578 swemali  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:43:51am

re: #65 Stanley Sea

He’s hiding something.

Consider it is ramadan, Rauf is probably praying, fasting, giving to charity, forgiving others and asking for forgiveness, meditating and in general trying to be a good human being.

This whole thing is depressing.

579 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Aug 23, 2010 9:53:16am

re: #578 swemali

Consider it is ramadan, Rauf is probably praying, fasting, giving to charity, forgiving others and asking for forgiveness, meditating and in general trying to be a good human being.

This whole thing is depressing.

I remember when after 9/11 in Afghanistan and Iraq, the US military would take caution not to carry out their big operations during Ramadan.

Apparently, things are different in the homeland.

580 friarstale  Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:41:56am

this was a good article
“both parents kidnapped twice by radical muslims”
lol
well, at least they lived to tell the tale


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