More Than a Quarter of Republicans Believe Anti-Govt Violence Can Be Justified

Wingnuts • Views: 32,920

I rarely start a post like this, but wow.

CBS News published a new poll today, showing that a majority of Americans believe Jared Lee Loughner’s politics were a factor in the Arizona mass murder.

(With poll questions like this, It’s always important to note: all it tells you is that a majority believes this, not whether it’s actually true.)

But another poll question has a pretty shocking response:

The poll also shows that while three in four Americans say violence against the government is never justified, 16 percent say it can be justified — the same percentage that said as much in April.

Markos Moulitsas emailed CBS and asked for the partisan breakdown of responses to that question, and this is where it gets even more disturbing:

Do you think it is ever justified for citizens to take violent action against the government, or is it never justified?

Republican 28% yes, 64% no
Democrat 11% yes, 81% no
Indepdent 11% yes, 81% no

LGF reader Killgore Trout points out that the percentage of Republicans who believe anti-government violence can be justified is about the same as the percentage of Pakistani, Indonesian and Turkish Muslims who support terrorist acts against civilians.

Jump to bottom

647 comments
1 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:22:40pm

Well, how else are you supposed to stop Big Government from creating the New World Order?
///

2 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:23:19pm

100% of armed, revolting Americans shocked to find nation has Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine corps.

3 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:24:49pm

Never prouder to be an Independent. No party for me. Likely for the rest of my days. So be it. American Ronin.

4 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:26:37pm

For the moment I'm still "meh" about this because honestly I think violence against the government can be justified... provided that the government in question is say the Third Reich.... everything is context and the question is too open ended in my opinion...

5 albusteve  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:26:44pm

re: #3 Rightwingconspirator

Never prouder to be an Independent. No party for me. Likely for the rest of my days. So be it. American Ronin.

why were you ever affiliated with a party in the first place?...di d you ever give the GOP your money?...just curious

6 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:27:00pm

re: #2 jaunte

100% of armed, revolting Americans shocked to find nation has Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine corps.

And a whole bunch of civilian patriots that ain't gonna put up with that "revolution" bullshit!

7 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:27:00pm

What is scariest to me about this number is that this is a poll taken right after violence was used against the government. I'd expect, in the aftermath of a congresswoman shot, for people to be a bit more restrained.

I don't think that violence is ever justified against our government, our democratically elected government. I can't even begin to come up with an example of where it would be. When is it okay to throw a rock at a cop? When is it ever going to have a positive ending?

The Weathermen certainly thought it was justified to commit violence against the government. I thought, somehow, that Republicans didn't like them.

So weird.

8 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:27:01pm

re: #2 jaunte

100% of armed, revolting Americans shocked to find nation has Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine corps.

They always seem to think the entire armed services will end up on their side.

9 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:27:48pm

We have become Pakistan. Sorry if that seems hyperbolic, but it seems like that to me.

This event has shaken my politics. I used to be fairly Pro-Gun, now I'm beginning to waver.

10 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:27:53pm

re: #4 jamesfirecat

For the moment I'm still "meh" about this because honestly I think violence against the government can be justified... provided that the government in question is say the Third Reich... everything is context and the question is too open ended in my opinion...

Remember the question is being asked in the context of all these other questions about the Arizona shooting. I feel that it's rather clear that the question is about our government, not the Third Reich.

11 albusteve  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:28:39pm

re: #4 jamesfirecat

For the moment I'm still "meh" about this because honestly I think violence against the government can be justified... provided that the government in question is say the Third Reich... everything is context and the question is too open ended in my opinion...

it's just abstract enough to ensnare you into an answer that is used against you...of course there could be reason to take up arms against the govt....you are correct

12 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:28:47pm

re: #9 ProLifeLiberal

The guns really aren't the problem. It's the culture of tolerance for their use as threats and displays of rebellion.

Responsible gun owners are no threat to anyone.

13 gdalpert  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:29:03pm

Sorry, but it's a bogus poll. The question was "Do you think it is ever justified for citizens to take violent action against the government, or is it never justified?"

EVER? Sure. Now? No way. Anytime in the next 10 years? Not bloody likely. Sometime in my lifetime? Seriously doubtful, but that's probably what some Germans said in 1930.

14 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:29:48pm

re: #13 gdalpert

Do you think the same thing about polls of Muslims saying that terrorism is sometimes justified?

15 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:30:01pm

re: #13 gdalpert

So you're just going to ignore the context of the poll?

16 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:30:39pm

re: #14 Obdicut

Bingo. As the poll shows, we know have a political party as radicalized as Pakistan.

17 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:30:46pm

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They always seem to think the entire armed services will end up on their side.

Actually, I recall that the Army commisioned a study in the 90's over that question. The upshot was that in a large scale civil insurection over a culture war issue likee gun confiscation, about one half at a minimum of personnel in combat units would either refuse to participat or actively go to the other side. A friend of mine in 2nd bat 75th Ranger Regt told me about it.

18 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:30:50pm

re: #10 Obdicut

Remember the question is being asked in the context of all these other questions about the Arizona shooting. I feel that it's rather clear that the question is about our government, not the Third Reich.

You're probably right, but being a nieve kumbiah singing democrat, I can't help but say that the question needs to be more decisive with less wiggle room. Because at the moment I'd say "Yes" though I somehow doubt that I have quite the same thing in mind when I say "Yes" as do some of the Republicans when they do....

19 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:30:54pm

re: #4 jamesfirecat

For the moment I'm still "meh" about this because honestly I think violence against the government can be justified... provided that the government in question is say the Third Reich... everything is context and the question is too open ended in my opinion...

As I pointed out in the last thread it's very scary to think of those poll results in context of what today's Republicans actual believe; Death Panels, Cloward Piven, Unconstitutional power grabs, "Fisting" schoolchildren, oppressing white people, ACORN, Soros, Black Panthers, Nirth Certifikit, etc.
I'd say the majority of Republicans believe this stuff is true. Those results are very spooky and not surprising.

20 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:31:03pm

But what if the government is about to eat a puppy?
//

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:31:15pm

re: #9 ProLifeLiberal

We have become Pakistan. Sorry if that seems hyperbolic, but it seems like that to me.

This event has shaken my politics. I used to be fairly Pro-Gun, now I'm beginning to waver.

We haven't become Pakistan. We may be a step closer on the scale, but it's a big scale.

This does suck, though.

22 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:31:20pm

I think we're seeing the right wing talking point emerging quickly.

"They were just thinking about the American Revolution!"

23 albusteve  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:31:23pm

is the question about a general, nationwide uprising, or a smaller isolated incident?...defensive or offensive posture?...who's on first?

24 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:31:31pm

re: #15 Charles

So you're just going to ignore the context of the poll?

No one expects the Teabag Inquisition. Their chief weapon is ignoring context.

25 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:31:35pm

re: #16 ProLifeLiberal

Bingo. As the poll shows, we now have a political party as radicalized as Pakistan.

Fixed spelling. Is there a way for us to fix typos Charles?

26 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:31:37pm

re: #9 ProLifeLiberal

We have become Pakistan. Sorry if that seems hyperbolic, but it seems like that to me.

This event has shaken my politics. I used to be fairly Pro-Gun, now I'm beginning to waver.


Me too. I have been absolutist about gun ownership my entire life, and I am beginning to question it.

27 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:31:47pm

re: #13 gdalpert

Seriously doubtful, but that's probably what some Germans said in 1930.


Fascism!

28 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:31:59pm

re: #13 gdalpert

Sorry, but it's a bogus poll. The question was "Do you think it is ever justified for citizens to take violent action against the government, or is it never justified?"

EVER? Sure. Now? No way. Anytime in the next 10 years? Not bloody likely. Sometime in my lifetime? Seriously doubtful, but that's probably what some Germans said in 1930.

28% of Republicans vs. 11% of Dems and Indies? That's not bogus. That is *terrifying*.

29 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:32:37pm

re: #18 jamesfirecat

Do you really think that the question was being asked in that abstract context?

This has nothing to do with being naive or kumbayah singing. It has to do with the context of the poll: the shooting of a member of the government.

30 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:32:48pm

re: #12 Obdicut

Responsible gun owners are no threat to anyone.

And they sure as hell don't go around showing off their gun collection to everyone.

31 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:33:03pm

re: #9 ProLifeLiberal

We have become Pakistan. Sorry if that seems hyperbolic, but it seems like that to me.

This event has shaken my politics. I used to be fairly Pro-Gun, now I'm beginning to waver.

Then watch this.

MSNBC Video
32 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:33:05pm

BTW, Markos is still a douchebage. If he's lying about this I'm gonna be really pissed.

33 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:33:21pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

As I pointed out in the last thread it's very scary to think of those poll results in context of what today's Republicans actual believe; Death Panels, Cloward Piven, Unconstitutional power grabs, "Fisting" schoolchildren, oppressing white people, ACORN, Soros, Black Panthers, Nirth Certifikit, etc.
I'd say the majority of Republicans believe this stuff is true. Those results are very spooky and not surprising.

Not surprising, but depressing nonetheless.

34 albusteve  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:33:35pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

As I pointed out in the last thread it's very scary to think of those poll results in context of what today's Republicans actual believe; Death Panels, Cloward Piven, Unconstitutional power grabs, "Fisting" schoolchildren, oppressing white people, ACORN, Soros, Black Panthers, Nirth Certifikit, etc.
I'd say the majority of Republicans believe this stuff is true. Those results are very spooky and not surprising.

and Glock sales have gone though the roof

35 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:34:07pm

re: #32 Killgore Trout

BTW, Markos is still a douchebage. If he's lying about this I'm gonna be really pissed.

He wouldn't say he got this from CBS if he didn't. That would be really dumb.

36 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:34:26pm

re: #32 Killgore Trout

I seriously doubt he would. I'm no fan of his at all, but that blow up so badly in his face.

37 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:34:44pm

re: #29 Obdicut

Do you really think that the question was being asked in that abstract context?

This has nothing to do with being naive or kumbayah singing. It has to do with the context of the poll: the shooting of a member of the government.

You're probably right, but I'm just gonna sit this thread out...

38 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:35:08pm

re: #36 Obdicut

I seriously doubt he would. I'm no fan of his at all, but that blow up so badly in his face.

I don't think he faked this either... but he's not immune to stupid.

39 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:35:16pm

re: #20 Obdicut

But what if the government is about to eat a puppy?
//


Then we would be living in South Korea. ;)

I never had the desire to eat fresh roasted dog, personally.

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:35:36pm

re: #10 Obdicut

Remember the question is being asked in the context of all these other questions about the Arizona shooting. I feel that it's rather clear that the question is about our government, not the Third Reich.

True, but there are conditions under which I would take up arms against something calling itself the goverment of the United States.

They are really, really unlikely conditions, but they're there. So that would be in the back of my mind as well.

Not a good question construction.

41 gdalpert  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:36:25pm

re: #14 Obdicut

Do you think the same thing about polls of Muslims saying that terrorism is sometimes justified?

Yes. The Revolutionary War contained some elements of terrorism. That's one of the few tools that powerless people have in their tool-belt. When we, the US of A, funded the Mujahideen against the USSR in Afghanistan, wasn't that a form of terrorism against an unjust government?

Now, do I agree with any sentiment that Islamic terrorism against the USA is justified? Of course not. But, understanding the mindset that leads one to use a tactic is different than condoning or accepting it.

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:36:33pm

re: #20 Obdicut

But what if the government is about to eat a puppy?
//

Oh, well, in that case it's Second Amendment Remedies all around!!!

///only a little. I love dogs.

43 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:36:41pm

re: #35 Charles

He wouldn't say he got this from CBS if he didn't. That would be really dumb.

I just hate to take his word for it. I find it odd that CBS omitted the partisan breakdown on that question. They broke down the rest of the poll question results by party. I suspect they didn't want to be divisive.

44 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:36:56pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

As I pointed out in the last thread it's very scary to think of those poll results in context of what today's Republicans actual believe; Death Panels, Cloward Piven, Unconstitutional power grabs, "Fisting" schoolchildren, oppressing white people, ACORN, Soros, Black Panthers, Nirth Certifikit, etc.
I'd say the majority of Republicans believe this stuff is true. Those results are very spooky and not surprising.

You forgot Alinsky!

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:37:00pm

re: #24 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

No one expects the Teabag Inquisition. Their chief weapon is ignoring context.

...a fanatical devotion to Sarah Palin...

46 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:37:07pm

re: #32 Killgore Trout

BTW, Markos is still a douchebage. If he's lying about this I'm gonna be really pissed.

Most people say the same thing about Glen Greenwald...including his allies. Even when he is utterly correct, he still manages to be a seriously revolting dickhead.

47 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:37:17pm

re: #44 marjoriemoon

You forgot Alinsky!

Noooooo!

48 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:37:32pm

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the gigantic point spread between the independents-and-democrats, and the GOP, is significant.

Obviously, some people, like you and James, might interpret the question in that fashion.

Most people, though, I think are going to interpret it as I'm doing; that it's about our government.

So, statistically, it really doesn't matter if the question is badly stated; a difference is still being shown.

49 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:37:41pm

re: #39 celticdragon

Then we would be living in South Korea. ;)

I never had the desire to eat fresh roasted dog, personally.

Didn't realize till afterwards.

"This fried chicken is great."

"Guess again."

"What?"

"See any wings?"

"..."

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:38:13pm

re: #28 austin_blue

28% of Republicans vs. 11% of Dems and Indies? That's not bogus. That is *terrifying*.

It's the imbalance in the numbers that does worry me. I agree that the question is weird, but it's weird for everyone. The fact that SO many more Republicans follow the thought process that says "Yes" speaks to their frame of mind about the government as it exists.

I think.

51 Steve Dutch  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:38:48pm

re: #4 jamesfirecat

Exactly my conclusion. What was all that stuff at Bunker Hill about? The question is, is violence against the present government justified? Poorly designed surveys don't prove a thing.

52 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:39:09pm

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but there are conditions under which I would take up arms against something calling itself the goverment of the United States.

They are really, really unlikely conditions, but they're there. So that would be in the back of my mind as well.

Not a good question construction.

OK, but let's assume that all of the Dems and Indies (11%) answered "yes" for that reason and that 11% of the R's did, too. That leaves a 17% excursion on the R's answers.

Cue theme to "The Twilight Zone".

53 darthstar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:39:19pm

Just locked the doggie door. There are about 20 coyotes yapping outside the fence about a hundred yards from my house. Both dogs are sitting on the couch next to me as if to say, "What...you think we're going out there? We're not stupid." Sounds like someone's dog did though.

54 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:39:20pm

re: #48 Obdicut

I think the gigantic point spread between the independents-and-democrats, and the GOP, is significant.

Obviously, some people, like you and James, might interpret the question in that fashion.

Most people, though, I think are going to interpret it as I'm doing; that it's about our government.

So, statistically, it really doesn't matter if the question is badly stated; a difference is still being shown.

Exactly, there's a monumental gulf in the psychology of human perception here.

55 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:39:42pm

re: #19 Killgore Trout

As I pointed out in the last thread it's very scary to think of those poll results in context of what today's Republicans actual believe; Death Panels, Cloward Piven, Unconstitutional power grabs, "Fisting" schoolchildren, oppressing white people, ACORN, Soros, Black Panthers, Nirth Certifikit, etc.
I'd say the majority of Republicans believe this stuff is true. Those results are very spooky and not surprising.

That's it right there, really. I mean, we could all agree that it would be justifiable to take up arms against The Third Reich, most rational people would.

But for a good number of these delusional Teahadis, the idea that we currently live under a totalitarian, nazi-like regime is real.

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:39:44pm

re: #34 albusteve

and Glock sales have gone though the roof

Really? Since the shooting?

That's just disgusting. What are people thinking? "A Congresswoman got shot with one of these, I MUST have one"? Nothing against the company, but it's not exactly an advertisement. At least I wouldn't have expected it to be.

57 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:39:45pm

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

The entire poll is about the Arizona shootings. If this one question had been asked on its own, without any context, the GOP response might be explainable as a hypothetical situation in which the government became a tyranny. But you'd still have to explain why nearly three times as many Republicans as Democrats answered yes.

Here's the complete poll:

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

58 celticdragon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:39:46pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

I just hate to take his word for it. I find it odd that CBS omitted the partisan breakdown on that question. They broke down the rest of the poll question results by party. I suspect they didn't want to be divisive.

The MSM news has been so beat down by the "librul media!!!11!!" meme that they reflexively omit partisan data that is controversial.

Also, David Gergan says both sides do it. Too. Also.

59 albusteve  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:40:40pm

re: #29 Obdicut

Do you really think that the question was being asked in that abstract context?

This has nothing to do with being naive or kumbayah singing. It has to do with the context of the poll: the shooting of a member of the government.

then the question deserves some sort of preamble regarding context....if the question is alluding to civil war, I'd say the numbers are high for it...but I don't trust poll answers anyway....when it comes time to pull the trigger I think the numbers would be lower

60 gdalpert  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:40:54pm

re: #15 Charles

So you're just going to ignore the context of the poll?

It's a bad poll. My answer last week would be the same as my answer this week, and the same as in December 1941. I like my government & society. But, that doesn't mean I could NEVER conceive of a situation when I might feel compelled to rise against it. NEVER and EVER are very hard words for me.

I think it would have been a much more meaningful poll if it asked about THIS government, or if it dropped the qualifiers EVER and NEVER.

61 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:41:17pm

This was a surprising result:

Will Shootings Like This Happen Again?
All Reps Dems Inds
Will be more violent acts 45% 41% 45% 47%
Random act/Won't be repeated 47 55 45 45
There are partisan differences: 55% of Republicans describe the shootings in Arizona as a random act, compared to 45% of Democrats who think that.


That's a very loud 10%.

62 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:41:36pm

re: #53 darthstar

Which is an entirely reasonable time to have a gun, by the way. I can't really think of another way to handle that situation, and that is a major threat to pets and small children.

63 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:41:37pm

re: #41 gdalpert

Yes. The Revolutionary War contained some elements of terrorism. That's one of the few tools that powerless people have in their tool-belt. When we, the US of A, funded the Mujahideen against the USSR in Afghanistan, wasn't that a form of terrorism against an unjust government?

The part of the Pew poll referenced was specifically for terrorism against civilians, not government.

64 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:43:12pm

re: #41 gdalpert

Yes. The Revolutionary War contained some elements of terrorism. That's one of the few tools that powerless people have in their tool-belt. When we, the US of A, funded the Mujahideen against the USSR in Afghanistan, wasn't that a form of terrorism against an unjust government?

Actually, not really. The Mujahideen generally attacked military targets. The Pakistani poll is about terrorist acts against civilians.

Now, do I agree with any sentiment that Islamic terrorism against the USA is justified? Of course not. But, understanding the mindset that leads one to use a tactic is different than condoning or accepting it.

You're off in the weeds now. We're not talking about understanding that mindset-- we're talking about agreement.

65 gdalpert  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:43:13pm

re: #22 Charles


Sorry, I'm proud liberal, but that's the first thought that I had when I read it. Talking point or not, I think the question was poorly constructed.

66 Kruk  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:43:17pm

re: #2 jaunte

100% of armed, revolting Americans shocked to find nation has Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine corps.

Most of the people who believe violence against the Government can be justified are also those who believe terrorism is the greatest threat facing America. It goes so far beyond congnitive dissonace that they'll have to invent a new term for it.

67 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:43:54pm

The context of the poll should drive a related answer, but it really should have been stated more clearly for the results to really mean something. Violent action against the US government, an unspecified democratically elected government or something more malevolent in theory? Honest polling with a more defined question may well have generated similar numbers but this one is no good to hang ones hat on.

Under the circumstances a thinking respondent would say no, I would, but the wording pretty much invalidates this one in my eye. Someone should try again.

68 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:44:05pm

re: #51 SteveDutch

Exactly my conclusion. What was all that stuff at Bunker Hill about? The question is, is violence against the present government justified? Poorly designed surveys don't prove a thing.

Yes, they do, when two distinct subgroups answer them distinctly differently. It can be argued, at that point, what it is they're proving, but they certainly are demonstrating that there is a difference in the two subgroups.

69 Alexzander  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:44:15pm

"The American Revolution was one of the very few conservative revolutions around the world." -Erick Erickson on his debut radio show right now.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:44:55pm

re: #69 Alexzander

"The American Revolution was one of the very few conservative revolutions around the world." -Erick Erickson on his debut radio show right now.

What, precisely, was so conservative about the American Revolution, pray tell?

71 garhighway  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:45:05pm

re: #69 Alexzander

"The American Revolution was one of the very few conservative revolutions around the world." -Erick Erickson on his debut radio show right now.

Because heredity monarchies are liberal?

72 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:45:38pm

Wow. A bunch of us are posting all over each other when we are in fundamental agreement.

Damned Intrawebs...

73 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:45:56pm

I really feel like the US Government is approaching the gridlock that has been in effect in California for many years. I don't know how to get the political grandstanding to make way for honest doing the business of government.
There's a job to get done.

74 Alexzander  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:46:03pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

What, precisely, was so conservative about the American Revolution, pray tell?


No idea... just sharing the madness.

75 Kruk  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:46:11pm

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They always seem to think the entire armed services will end up on their side.

Because that worked so well the last time...

Seriously, what do these people think "....all enemies foreign and domestic"?

76 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:46:11pm

re: #69 Alexzander

"The American Revolution was one of the very few conservative revolutions around the world." -Erick Erickson on his debut radio show right now.

What a load of twaddle

77 webevintage  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:46:54pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

I just hate to take his word for it. I find it odd that CBS omitted the partisan breakdown on that question. They broke down the rest of the poll question results by party. I suspect they didn't want to be divisive.

I'd like to see a breakdown of most polls by region but that very seldom seems to happen.

78 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:46:59pm

re: #69 Alexzander

"The American Revolution was one of the very few conservative revolutions around the world." -Erick Erickson on his debut radio show right now.

Jeez. I thought the Conservatives of the day were called "Tories".

Damned history books.

And the rent is *too* damned high.

79 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:47:21pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

What, precisely, was so conservative about the American Revolution, pray tell?

Maintaining long held traditions? Wait, no...

Um... Telling "The Man" to fuck off? Er...

I'm drawing a blank here.

80 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:47:54pm

At the very least, at the absolute minimum, this poll shows that Republicans will more easily conceive of our government changing into one that needs violent resistance. I think there are very obvious reasons for that-- they are told, repeatedly, that our government is changing into one that may need to be violently resisted.

81 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:48:17pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe he's talking about the part where only the male property owners got the vote.

82 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:48:28pm

re: #80 Obdicut

At the very least, at the absolute minimum, this poll shows that Republicans will more easily conceive of our government changing into one that needs violent resistance. I think there are very obvious reasons for that-- they are told, repeatedly, that our government is changing into one that may need to be violently resisted.

It's the victory of Alex Jones.

83 Alexzander  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:48:54pm

re: #79 Slumbering Behemoth

Maintaining long held traditions? Wait, no...

Um... Telling "The Man" to fuck off? Er...

I'm drawing a blank here.

It was right after he said the left were the ones practicing dangerous rhetoric because they tend to participate in a revolutionary discourse (ok, so he didn't use so many big words). His world view isn't even consistent or well thought out within a three minute radio clip.

84 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:48:55pm

re: #78 austin_blue

Jeez. I thought the Conservatives of the day were called "Tories".

Damned history books.

And the rent is *too* damned high.

The colonies didn't have any conservatives then, just classical liberals.

85 darthstar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:49:12pm

re: #62 ProLifeLiberal

Which is an entirely reasonable time to have a gun, by the way. I can't really think of another way to handle that situation, and that is a major threat to pets and small children.

Agreed...but I don't have my guns down here where I live. Doesn't matter, because we got the keys to our new house (!!!) today so we'll be moving in another week down to Half Moon Bay and won't be in coyote country anymore.

86 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:49:14pm

re: #80 Obdicut

At the very least, at the absolute minimum, this poll shows that Republicans will more easily conceive of our government changing into one that needs violent resistance. I think there are very obvious reasons for that-- they are told, repeatedly, that our government is changing into one that may need to be violently resisted.

Yes, that's right

87 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:49:36pm

re: #76 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

This Erick fellow is an idiot. That war was fought over so we would have a voice in our affairs, including taxes. The ability of the people to make decisions on their own affairs was a liberal idea at the time. Just because he sees something about taxes, he assumes it was a conservative revolution. For this, Erick Erickson is a dullard.

88 engineer cat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:50:04pm

re: #69 Alexzander

"The American Revolution was one of the very few conservative revolutions around the world." -Erick Erickson on his debut radio show right now.

Definitions of conservative on the Web:

•resistant to change
•having social or political views favoring conservatism
•cautious: avoiding excess; "a conservative estimate"
•a person who is reluctant to accept changes and new ideas
•button-down: unimaginatively conventional; "a colorful character in the buttoned-down, dull-grey world of business"- Newsweek
•a member of a Conservative Party
•bourgeois: conforming to the standards and conventions of the middle class; "a bourgeois mentality"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

•Conservatism is a political and social term from the Latin verb conservare meaning to save or preserve. As the name suggests it usually indicates support for tradition and traditional values though the meaning has changed in different countries and time periods. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_(politics)

•A person whose political philosophy is generally based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change. ...
2008election.procon.org/viewresource.asp

•people who generally like to uphold current conditions and oppose changes. Conservatives are often referred to as the right wing.
www.zoomschool.com/election/glossary.shtml

how is that again, erick?

89 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:50:28pm

re: #84 Slumbering Behemoth

The colonies didn't have any conservatives then, just classical liberals.

Well, actually they did. They lost. Had their property confiscated. Moved to Canada or Britain, etc.

90 darthstar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:50:37pm

Okay...this is just creepy.

91 albusteve  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:50:58pm

re: #80 Obdicut

At the very least, at the absolute minimum, this poll shows that Republicans will more easily conceive of our government changing into one that needs violent resistance. I think there are very obvious reasons for that-- they are told, repeatedly, that our government is changing into one that may need to be violently resisted.

well yeah...we knew that when the subject was posted in the last thread...and we've seen that right wing propaganda has been working for two years...so we have been enlightened....the question is, what follows and what will be your role personally?

92 webevintage  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:51:14pm

re: #65 gdalpert

Sorry, I'm proud liberal, but that's the first thought that I had when I read it. Talking point or not, I think the question was poorly constructed.

It may be poorly constructed but in the end more Rs feel it is ok for citizens to take violent action against the government if it is "justified".

93 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:51:25pm

re: #90 darthstar

That's seriously not photoshopped?

94 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:51:35pm

re: #85 darthstar

Agreed...but I don't have my guns down here where I live. Doesn't matter, because we got the keys to our new house (!!!) today so we'll be moving in another week down to Half Moon Bay and won't be in coyote country anymore.

Ah, Half Moon Bay...the valley of flowers and fog...

95 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:51:40pm

re: #90 darthstar

Okay...this is just creepy.

Holy crap! O_o

96 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:51:43pm

re: #89 The Shadow Do

I shoulda added a sarc tag. :[

re: #90 darthstar

HOLY SHIT!

97 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:51:48pm

re: #73 Floral Giraffe

I really feel like the US Government is approaching the gridlock that has been in effect in California for many years. I don't know how to get the political grandstanding to make way for honest doing the business of government.
There's a job to get done.

Oh never mind that, we're busy arguing!

98 Kruk  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:52:58pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

Really? Since the shooting?

That's just disgusting. What are people thinking? "A Congresswoman got shot with one of these, I MUST have one"? Nothing against the company, but it's not exactly an advertisement. At least I wouldn't have expected it to be.

I think it's more of "Glock gun control crackdown coming, better get mine now" thing than a "wow, great product! Must have one!". At least, I hope so.

99 darthstar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:53:12pm

re: #90 darthstar

Okay...this is just creepy.

On the one side we have a crazy, creepy freak who shouldn't be out in public, and on the other a mass murderer.

100 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:53:14pm

re: #90 darthstar

Hoo boy, that is weird. Aside from that, I'm not sure how to react to those pictures.

101 Alexzander  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:53:17pm

re: #93 Obdicut

That's seriously not photoshopped?

The glenn face is definitely shopped in (or i should say, the mad guy's face is shopped in) - whats scary is that is still looks like Glenn.

102 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:53:21pm
(With poll questions like this, It’s always important to note: all it tells you is that a majority believes this, not whether it’s actually true.)

Is this really neccessary to point out with an opinion poll? Serious question.

103 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:53:21pm

re: #93 Obdicut

That's seriously not photoshopped?

It's shopped.

/can tell by the pixels ...

104 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:53:33pm

re: #93 Obdicut

That's seriously not photoshopped?

Probably a little.

105 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:53:50pm

Do it now! Sign a letter of support for Sheriff Dupnik: People For the American Way: Stand Up for Sheriff Clarence Dupnik.

106 Usually refered to as anyways  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:54:10pm

re: #90 darthstar

Okay...this is just creepy.

Thats photo shopped.

107 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:54:10pm

re: #90 darthstar

Okay...this is just creepy.

Photoshop is so kewl!

108 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:54:24pm

re: #90 darthstar

Okay...this is just creepy.

Holy chalkboards, batman!

109 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:55:06pm

re: #107 austin_blue

Man, I'm gullible. I guess I'm just not actually all that familiar, thank god, with Beck's real face.

110 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:56:22pm

Not any less creepy for being shopped though.

111 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:56:32pm

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #98 Kruk

I think it's more of "Glock gun control crackdown coming, better get mine now" thing than a "wow, great product! Must have one!". At least, I hope so.

OR ,,, "I better be packing when I take my 9 y/o to the store in case a whack job opens fire,, maybe I can take him down before he takes me down"

112 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:56:40pm

re: #105 Charles

Done and done.

113 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:57:31pm

re: #101 Alexzander

...whats scary is that is still looks like Glenn.

Exactly.

114 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:57:49pm

re: #105 Charles

Done.

115 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:57:52pm

re: #105 Charles

Done. I'll put it around the office tomorrow.

116 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:58:13pm

re: #112 Slumbering Behemoth

Done and done.

Megadittos!

(ducks)

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:58:18pm

re: #111 sattv4u2

re: #98 Kruk

OR ,,, "I better be packing when I take my 9 y/o to the store in case a whack job opens fire,, maybe I can take him down before he takes me down"

If it really occurred to me that I needed to be armed simply to feel safe enough to enter a grocery store, I think I'd just move

118 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:58:32pm

re: #85 darthstar

WOOT!
And, congratulations.

119 darthstar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:59:19pm

re: #103 goddamnedfrank

It's shopped.

/can tell by the pixels ...

Maybe
Image: 479px-5.3.10GlennBeckByDavid-Shankbone.jpg

120 webevintage  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:59:40pm

Who wants to bet that President Obama will say something totally boring or very profound and healing tomorrow and within 15 min it will be an outrageous outrage that has Megyn Kelly outraged?

121 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 6:59:59pm

re: #105 Charles

I see Patterico is tweeting advice to you about how to remain credible,
after making idiotic partisan accusations. He seems impervious to his own advice.


Inflamed and HONEST rhetoric is preferable to calm and civil SMEARS.


It hit me today: people like @markos and @ericboehlert are actually HAPPY this shooting happened.

122 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:00:02pm

re: #117 WindUpBird

If it really occurred to me that I needed to be armed simply to feel safe enough to enter a grocery store, I think I'd just move

To where? Name me someplace with 0 shootings

For all the gun laws DC has, you think it's safe there?

123 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:01:06pm

Out to the gym...

124 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:01:55pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

Out to the gym...

ANSWER MY E-MAILS instead of playing with your birds, your longish natural hair and building up your pecs!

125 darthstar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:02:07pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

Out to the gym...

The gymocologist?

126 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:02:12pm

re: #109 Obdicut

Man, I'm gullible. I guess I'm just not actually all that familiar, thank god, with Beck's real face.

No one is familiar with Beck's real face.

Bwahahahaha!

127 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:02:39pm

re: #125 darthstar

The gymocologist?

He's getting a HISterectome!

128 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:03:27pm

re: #73 Floral Giraffe

Considering the weak executive powers here, it's well worth noting who has been in charge for quite some time to no better result.

129 Surabaya Stew  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:03:29pm

re: #81 jaunte

Maybe he's talking about the part where only the White male property owners got the vote.

Forgot that part.

130 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:03:39pm

I'm out too. Nite, Lizards.

131 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:03:55pm

I agree that the poll is obviously somewhat lacking in context.

On the other hand, 11% of Dems and Indies say armed revolt is not justifiable.

Do you think that they believe that if suddenly we were under an oppressive, murderous, fascistic tyranny, armed resistance would not be justifiable?

I doubt it. Why do you suppose that Republicans were some 2.5 times more likely to say that armed revolt is justifiable? Because they are more patriotic than Dems and Indies? More dedicated to being free from tyranny?

Or, perhaps, they think that armed resistance is justifiable because Obama is a Nazi/Socialist/Communist/Whitey-hating/terrorist sympathizing/Lyin' African/illegal immigrant/Muslim/pansy?

132 McSpiff  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:03:57pm

Political assassination? No. Armed insurrection? No. Blowing myself up in a crowded market? No.

Something like the British tuition riots? Yeah, I can see that. Does that count as anti-government violence?

133 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:04:19pm

re: #105 Charles

Done.

134 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:04:23pm

re: #102 000G

Is this really neccessary to point out with an opinion poll? Serious question.

Yes, it is.

135 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:04:30pm

The poll is legitimate, by the way, Killgore: the raws are at the bottom here:

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

136 darthstar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:04:39pm

re: #127 sattv4u2

He's getting a HISterectome!

It's not nice to speculumate.

137 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:05:08pm

Okay

Leftover Chinese Chicken Wings from Chopsticks restaurant in Atlanta

,, meh!

138 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:05:23pm

re: #134 Charles

Yes, it is.

Mkay.

By the way, the comments at that CBS poll page are pretty… disturbing or hilarious, I guess it would depend on your mood.

139 avanti  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:06:36pm

re: #22 Charles

I think we're seeing the right wing talking point emerging quickly.

"They were just thinking about the American Revolution!"

Honestly, that was my first thought when I saw the word "never" justified. I would have not excluded the future possibility if asked.

141 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:06:49pm

re: #137 sattv4u2

Okay

Leftover Chinese Chicken Wings from Chopsticks restaurant in Atlanta

,, meh!

I can fix up a fried egg sandwich. Oh wait, I'm out of bread. This single thing sucks.

142 darthstar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:07:01pm

Time to take an internets break. Take care, everyone.

143 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:08:21pm

re: #131 Talking Point Detective

Sorry - that should read, obviously: "On the other hand, 81% of Dems and Indies say armed revolt is not justifiable.

144 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:08:38pm

re: #122 sattv4u2

To where? Name me someplace with 0 shootings

For all the gun laws DC has, you think it's safe there?

Satt;

I understand what you are saying, but can you honestly say that you have personally known anyone who has been killed by a firearm that wasn't killed by: (a) accident; (b) by someone they knew; (c) over drugs; (d) by suicide; or (e) while in the military?

The chance of being killed by a gun in any other situation is extraordinarily small.

145 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:08:43pm

re: #121 jaunte

I see Patterico is tweeting advice to you about how to remain credible,
after making idiotic partisan accusations. He seems impervious to his own advice.

Blissfully unaware!

146 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:09:26pm

re: #9 ProLifeLiberal

This event has shaken my politics. I used to be fairly Pro-Gun, now I'm beginning to waver.

For me, it's reinforced my conviction that I should, at some point, learn how to properly load, shoot, clean, maintain, and store a gun. If these assholes are going to do anything stupid, I don't want to end up vulnerable, especially since I'm here in Texas, with our own special brand of wingnut.

147 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:10:01pm

re: #135 Obdicut

The poll is legitimate, by the way, Killgore: the raws are at the bottom here:

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Thanks. I think they must have added that. The original PDF didn't include a partisan breakdown.

148 brookly red  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:10:11pm

re: #132 McSpiff

Political assassination? No. Armed insurrection? No. Blowing myself up in a crowded market? No.

Something like the British tuition riots? Yeah, I can see that. Does that count as anti-government violence?

yeah, well that is the problem with polls a lot of interpretation is required...

149 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:11:03pm

re: #146 Lidane

For me, it's reinforced my conviction that I should, at some point, learn how to properly load, shoot, clean, maintain, and store a gun. If these assholes are going to do anything stupid, I don't want to end up vulnerable, especially since I'm here in Texas, with our own special brand of wingnut.

The only problem with that is that you're likely to find target shooting is not only a whole lot of fun, but also an expensive hobby.

150 brookly red  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:11:13pm

re: #141 The Shadow Do

I can fix up a fried egg sandwich. Oh wait, I'm out of bread. This single thing sucks.

not if you learn how to play it...

151 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:11:19pm

LA Times: Loughner's ramblings appear rooted in far right

152 garhighway  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:11:38pm

re: #105 Charles

Do it now! Sign a letter of support for Sheriff Dupnik: People For the American Way: Stand Up for Sheriff Clarence Dupnik.

Done

153 McSpiff  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:12:11pm

re: #148 brookly red

yeah, well that is the problem with polls a lot of interpretation is required...

If we start agreeing now its gonna be a long night.

154 CarleeCork  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:12:34pm

re: #146 Lidane

For me, it's reinforced my conviction that I should, at some point, learn how to properly load, shoot, clean, maintain, and store a gun. If these assholes are going to do anything stupid, I don't want to end up vulnerable, especially since I'm here in Texas, with our own special brand of wingnut.


As another Texan, I'm with you; why should Dems/Libs be the only ones unarmed. I'm going to get licensed and carry.

155 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:13:09pm

re: #146 Lidane

For me, it's reinforced my conviction that I should, at some point, learn how to properly load, shoot, clean, maintain, and store a gun. If these assholes are going to do anything stupid, I don't want to end up vulnerable, especially since I'm here in Texas, with our own special brand of wingnut.

Ah, but you are in Austin, where an intruder would be as likely looking for Dr. Pepper and some Nacho Cheeses Doritos as anything else.

156 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:13:10pm

Right On Topic
Joe Scarborough Wants the Republican Party Back

NEW YORK – Joe Scarborough Wants the Republican Party BackJoe Scarborough has been branded a turncoat by some in the GOP for taking on extremists. But the Giffords shooting shows he was right in calling for calm, the Morning Joe host tells Howard Kurtz.

Joe Scarborough was back in Washington, where he cheerfully admits he was a “bomb-thrower” of a congressman, using his privileges to walk onto the House floor for John Boehner’s swearing-in.

But Scarborough, who has begun to muse about running for office again, has become something of a scold toward his party, preaching like a reformed alcoholic that the Republicans shouldn’t make the mistakes that he and his fellow rebels did when they were savaging Bill Clinton.

“We had contempt for Clinton,” he says moments after wrapping his MSNBC morning show. “We thought he was a has-been. We thought we were going to run him out of town. And we were wrong. We overreached.”

157 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:13:28pm

re: #150 brookly red

I think you left out the word "with" in that comment.
:P

158 brookly red  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:13:37pm

re: #153 McSpiff

If we start agreeing now its gonna be a long night.

I got plenty of beer, smokes & munchies...

159 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:13:46pm

re: #150 brookly red

not if you learn how to play it...

Uh, huh? Oh, oh, OH!!


Old dog here.

160 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:13:52pm

re: #149 Slumbering Behemoth

The only problem with that is that you're likely to find target shooting is not only a whole lot of fun, but also an expensive hobby.

Yeah, I know. A lot of my liberal friends are gun enthusiasts because they love going target shooting. They've told me how much they spend sometimes.

Still, I think it's a valuable skill to learn. Even if I don't end up concealed carrying or anything, knowing how to do all those things will be helpful, I think.

161 Alexzander  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:15:03pm

Oh my god my ears: Erick Erickson is now doing an impersonation of an environmentalist with a stereotyped homosexual lisp!

162 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:15:32pm

re: #155 austin_blue

Ah, but you are in Austin, where an intruder would be as likely looking for Dr. Pepper and some Nacho Cheeses Doritos as anything else.

True, but we also have plenty of Alex Jones listeners and Ron Paul fans around here. I'm not inclined to take any chances.

It's going to be a while before I can afford to take the time and money to take lessons and all that, but it's definitely in the back of my mind now.

163 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:15:40pm

re: #144 austin_blue

Satt;

I understand what you are saying, but can you honestly say that you have personally known anyone who has been killed by a firearm that wasn't killed by: (a) accident; (b) by someone they knew; (c) over drugs; (d) by suicide; or (e) while in the military?

The chance of being killed by a gun in any other situation is extraordinarily small.

The "chances" of many things in life are "extraordinarily small". Doesn't mean we don't carry insurance for them in the eventuality something (bad) happens

164 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:15:40pm

Loughner's story just gets stranger and stranger: Did he think he was dreaming when he attacked?

He also apparently kept a journal of his dreams - I sure hope it's now in the hands of law enforcement.

165 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:15:43pm

re: #149 Slumbering Behemoth

The only problem with that is that you're likely to find target shooting is not only a whole lot of fun, but also an expensive hobby.

Took my daughter target shooting with the .357. 40 minutes, $75 bucks in ammo plus targets and lanes. Fun but not again for a while for sure.

166 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:15:51pm

BBIAB

167 brookly red  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:16:17pm

re: #157 Slumbering Behemoth

I think you left out the word "with" in that comment.
:P

naaaw, for example why should I make an egg sandwich when the girl next door making, sniff, sniff... lasagna it think?

168 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:16:29pm

re: #154 CarleeCork

As another Texan, I'm with you; why should Dems/Libs be the only ones unarmed. I'm going to get licensed and carry.

I'd be willing to bet that there are an awful lot of filled graves out there that are a direct result of the "Liberal = Unarmed" myth. Just sayin'.

169 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:16:36pm

re: #161 Alexzander

Oh my god my ears: Erick Erickson is now doing an impersonation of an environmentalist with a stereotyped homosexual lisp!

I'm a life member of the Sierra Club.

Not that there is anything wrong with that......

170 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:16:47pm

re: #161 Alexzander

Oh my god my ears: Erick Erickson is now doing an impersonation of an environmentalist with a stereotyped homosexual lisp!

Why is there so much 'teh ghey' inflection in their antagonism?

It's so utterly apparent that it's a childish antagonism basic in homophobia.

171 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:17:35pm

re: #164 reine.de.tout

Loughner's story just gets stranger and stranger: Did he think he was dreaming when he attacked?

He also apparently kept a journal of his dreams - I sure hope it's now in the hands of law enforcement.

Wow. Now that would be a twist I didn't see coming.

172 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:18:12pm

re: #165 The Shadow Do

Ouch! Are you near L.A.?

173 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:18:25pm

Meanwhile, Peter King has refused to widen the hearing to include non-Muslims in regards to Homeland Security. Interesting, because he would know about terrorism, having supported the IRA in the past.

174 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:19:04pm

re: #170 BigPapa

You answered your own question. It's the worse possible insult they can imagine.

175 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:19:13pm

re: #164 reine.de.tout

Loughner's story just gets stranger and stranger: Did he think he was dreaming when he attacked?

He also apparently kept a journal of his dreams - I sure hope it's now in the hands of law enforcement.

Hey Reine! Your Tigers did *good* in the Cotton Bowl.

Is the Roi back?

Hope so.

176 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:20:01pm

re: #161 Alexzander

Oh my god my ears: Erick Erickson is now doing an impersonation of an environmentalist with a stereotyped homosexual lisp!

As far as I am concerned, CNN = epic fail for hiring that asshole.

CNN hiring him lends legitimacy to the movement he represents, and it disgusts me. And CNN is supposed to be the semi-rational news network. Blech.

177 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:20:08pm

re: #140 000G

It's the war of the sheriffs: Joe Arpaio Defends Sarah Palin, Says Sheriff Dupnik Too Political (VIDEO)

Sheriff Dupnik seemed to me to be sick and tired of being the powder keg of the U.S. Looked at as the new racist state. This was like the icing on the cake. Quite frankly, I saw a very pained man venting his frustration. I can't imagine how any law enforcement person would feel when something like this happens. At any rate, lots of us were happy he said it.

178 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:20:28pm

re: #164 reine.de.tout

Dreams, or fantasies?
I have to wonder...

179 McSpiff  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:20:32pm

re: #158 brookly red

I got plenty of beer, smokes & munchies...

re: #176 Fozzie Bear

As far as I am concerned, CNN = epic fail for hiring that asshole.

CNN hiring him lends legitimacy to the movement he represents, and it disgusts me. And CNN is supposed to be the semi-rational news network. Blech.

The same CNN that hired Glenn Beck?

180 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:20:34pm

re: #161 Alexzander

Oh my god my ears: Erick Erickson is now doing an impersonation of an environmentalist with a stereotyped homosexual lisp!

He's a cliché machine: [Link: mediamatters.org...]

181 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:20:52pm

re: #172 Rightwingconspirator

Ouch! Are you near L.A.?

Dallas

182 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:20:52pm

Walter will not like this:

Q: Quite early in the news cycle, the media more or less diagnosed Jared Loughner as paranoid schizophrenic. Do you think that's accurate?

A: He's a textbook case. Most psychiatrists will tell you they need to examine a patient before diagnosing him, but this guy has all of the symptoms. He has the right age of onset. He has a deteriorating social course, as they say in the [DSM], social and occupational dysfunction. He has delusions, and they're pretty strange. It's common for schizophrenics to think people are trying to control their mind, but thinking the government is trying to control your grammar -- I've never heard that before. The real tip-off is the markedly disorganized speech, which you see in the rambling videos. This is the kind of disorganized speech that you virtually never get in any other condition. It's what we call pathognomonic of schizophrenia. That is, when you hear that symptom, it's "schizophrenia until proven otherwise." He's also got the affective flattening of emotion, which you see in that mug shot.

[Link: www.salon.com...]

183 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:20:52pm

Hey I got this... Anyone here who signed the form supporting the sheriff is welcome to a free admission at a local out door range. This is a good time for responsible adults to step up. I got free passes as I am a shareholder. Nic is blue.

184 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:21:18pm

re: #179 McSpiff

re: #176 Fozzie Bear

The same CNN that hired Glenn Beck?

Yep. Though to be fair to CNN, Beck wasn't nearly as crazy-sounding then.

185 brookly red  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:22:10pm

re: #179 McSpiff

re: #176 Fozzie Bear

The same CNN that hired Glenn Beck?

don't ask me I haven't had a TV in many years...

186 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:22:16pm

re: #183 Rightwingconspirator

Is that range close to where I live?

187 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:22:21pm

re: #177 marjoriemoon

Sheriff Dupnik seemed to me to be sick and tired of being the powder keg of the U.S. Looked at as the new racist state. This was like the icing on the cake. Quite frankly, I saw a very pained man venting his frustration. I can't imagine how any law enforcement person would feel when something like this happens. At any rate, lots of us were happy he said it.

Required: Clarence Dupnik is not the anti-Joe Arpaio.

188 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:22:51pm

re: #182 000G

Walter will not like this:

[Link: www.salon.com...]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

189 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:22:58pm

re: #165 The Shadow Do

Took my daughter target shooting with the .357. 40 minutes, $75 bucks in ammo plus targets and lanes. Fun but not again for a while for sure.

I hear you but cheap 158 gr RLN .38 special (which is fine in every .357 revolver) would cut that bill significantly and for hunting the elusive paper target it's a very good load :)

190 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:23:20pm

re: #178 Floral Giraffe

Dreams, or fantasies?
I have to wonder...

Honing that insanity defense... I'm guessing.

191 McSpiff  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:23:51pm

re: #184 Fozzie Bear

Yep. Though to be fair to CNN, Beck wasn't nearly as crazy-sounding then.

I don't know, seems like he was doing an end of days show every other day... Pretty obviously nuts early on IMO

192 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:24:02pm

re: #186 Slumbering Behemoth

The range is up Little Tujunga Canyon. Off the 210. Further details via email only. I'm not advertising for them, just kicking in a little something that I can.

193 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:24:08pm

re: #189 wlewisiii

I hear you but cheap 158 gr RLN .38 special (which is fine in every .357 revolver) would cut that bill significantly and for hunting the elusive paper target it's a very good load :)

That's what I was shootin for the most part. Range polled me. Walmart for ammo in the future.

194 brookly red  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:24:21pm

re: #189 wlewisiii

I hear you but cheap 158 gr RLN .38 special (which is fine in every .357 revolver) would cut that bill significantly and for hunting the elusive paper target it's a very good load :)

so the ammo shortage is over I take it?

195 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:24:40pm

re: #164 reine.de.tout

I'm not sure I buy that. I've had lucid dreams before and I've never felt the impulse to go and shoot people.

196 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:25:27pm

So at this point it's painfully obvious that politics--or more to the point--the Republican Party had nothing to do with the murders in AZ last weekend. But even more obvious is the increasing disappointment we see from the media/Democrat party since they can't hang this on Republicans, Sarah Palin, Rush, Newt, or any well-know conservative.

The media/Democrat party needs something, anything to reverse the 2010 election results. They've twisted themselves into knots trying to spin this, but much to their chagrin, their viewers/readers aren't buying it. And, of course, they're still pissed at the voters.

The media/Democrat party really, really wanted violence to break out at a Tea Party event. That would have been the topping on the dessert they were trying to push in the run-up to the last election. Damn! Didn't happen.

One last point. Why does it seem that the "right-wing" is in such a frenzy over this? Simple. Conservatives get pissed off when people lie. Conversely, liberals get pissed off when we tell the truth.

197 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:25:28pm

I hope I didn't offend anyone to much with the Peter King comment. He is probably one of the Top 5 representatives in the House to tick me off.

198 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:25:57pm

re: #181 The Shadow Do

Darn. Nice city though. I liked my visit.

199 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:26:01pm

re: #196 rwmofo

the increasing disappointment we see from the media/Democrat party


Link?

200 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:26:18pm

re: #178 Floral Giraffe

re: #190 marjoriemoon

I wouldn't assume motivations to be that craven. Keep in mind this kid is very likely insane and deeply delusional, and the defense attorney isn't going to have anything available to her other than the same evidence the state has against him.

I don't think an insanity defense would necessarily be so far off the mark.

201 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:26:23pm

re: #196 rwmofo

Oh brother. They're working in shifts today.

202 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:26:40pm

re: #194 brookly red

so the ammo shortage is over I take it?

Well, it was but now? With the run on Glocks? Ask me again in a couple of months. I was enjoying finding $16 boxes of 50 .38's again.

203 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:26:49pm

re: #168 Slumbering Behemoth

I'd be willing to bet that there are an awful lot of filled graves out there that are a direct result of the "Liberal = Unarmed" myth. Just sayin'.

I'm willing to bet my Mossberg 12-gauge pump that you are correct. There a lot of Dems in Texas that would be very comfortable old line R's in New England. On the other hand, R's down here are commonly just bat-shit loony. taxfreekiller is not uncommon.

Hell, Alex Jones lives in the next zip code south.

204 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:27:32pm

re: #192 Rightwingconspirator

Dang, not close enough. But good on ya for making that generous offer.

205 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:27:47pm

re: #191 McSpiff

I don't know, seems like he was doing an end of days show every other day... Pretty obviously nuts early on IMO

I dunno, TBH I only saw a few snippets, and I don't recall being alarmed by what I saw. Then again I barely knew who he was at all before he was on Fox.

206 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:28:18pm

re: #196 rwmofo


Why do you keep calling it the media/Democrat party, when the most obvious and blatant association between media and a political party is the GOP and Newscorp?

207 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:28:18pm

re: #194 brookly red

Oh yeah. Components too, if you reload.

208 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:28:47pm

re: #196 rwmofo

The only thing that's painfully obvious is that the wingnuts are a bunch of thin skinned crybabies.

209 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:28:56pm

re: #196 rwmofo

I see more projection in this post than an IMAX multiplex.

210 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:29:14pm

re: #196 rwmofo

Conservatives get pissed off when people lie. Conversely, liberals get pissed off when we tell the truth.

You're intellectually dishonest and projecting a bunch of bullshit, and you're a troll. And a wannabe wingnut pundit, but you have no personality.

211 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:29:35pm

What's the "Democrat" party???
/

212 engineer cat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:29:40pm

re: #196 rwmofo

So at this point it's painfully obvious

the torque and velocity of these denials is causing my muscles to cramp up

213 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:29:48pm

re: #207 Rightwingconspirator

Hey, I had a lot of fun shooting at a local place the other day, just with a .22 rifle. I had a couple of questions-- mind if I shoot you an email?

214 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:29:48pm

re: #168 Slumbering Behemoth

I'd be willing to bet that there are an awful lot of filled graves out there that are a direct result of the "Liberal = Unarmed" myth. Just sayin'.

The part of Wisconsin I grew up in was Democratic, quite liberal, heavily unionized and very heavily armed.

215 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:30:12pm

re: #212 engineer dog

the torque and velocity of these denials is causing my muscles to cramp up

It's giving me free energy!
Fucking magnets.

216 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:30:22pm

re: #209 Fozzie Bear

LOL.

217 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:30:54pm

re: #215 Varek Raith

It's giving me free energy!
Fucking magnets.

Just don't tell Bill O'Reilly. His head will asplode from all the science. ;)

218 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:31:07pm

re: #209 Fozzie Bear

I see more projection in this post than an IMAX multiplex.

Projection seems to be a wingnut trait, exemplified gloriously by this winger.

219 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:31:23pm

re: #209 Fozzie Bear

I see more projection in this post than an IMAX multiplex.

Heh.

220 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:31:49pm

re: #164 reine.de.tout

Loughner's story just gets stranger and stranger: Did he think he was dreaming when he attacked?

He also apparently kept a journal of his dreams - I sure hope it's now in the hands of law enforcement.

You'd think he'd have taken notice of the fact that he took a cab to the scene and needed help making change, instead of flying there on his summoned pegasus.

221 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:31:56pm

re: #213 Obdicut

Hey, I had a lot of fun shooting at a local place the other day, just with a .22 rifle. I had a couple of questions-- mind if I shoot you an email?

I had to read this a third time before my eyes registered "local place" rather than "local police". HOLY SHIT OBDI HAS GONE CRAZY AND SOON WE'LL SEE BALD MUGSHOTS ON THE NEWS

222 John Q  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:31:56pm

re: #26 celticdragon

Me too. I have been absolutist about gun ownership my entire life, and I am beginning to question it.

I read the second amendment as giving an absolute right: the "well regulated militia" preamble seems to me to be explicatory, not restrictive. I alo read "arms" as basically any weapon that can be hand carried. (As against "armaments" - the big stuff.) So if you want to walk around with a loaded RPG or Stinger missile, I'd say you have the right to - until we're smart enough to repeal or amend the second amendment.

223 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:32:31pm

re: #213 Obdicut

I see what you did there!

224 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:32:40pm

How is that Patterico fool?

225 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:33:07pm

re: #224 BigPapa

Self-satisfieth.

226 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:33:33pm

re: #195 Lidane

I'm not sure I buy that. I've had lucid dreams before and I've never felt the impulse to go and shoot people.

Ah, but you don't have the bad voices telling you to do stuff BECAUSE YOU MUST!!!

227 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:33:44pm

re: #213 Obdicut

Please do. BTW your advice to my friend Pat Polk was well appreciated. BTW, we spoke yesterday. He got a new guitar with a "lower action", strung differently and wrote some (I think) great new blues. 6 new songs.
Not too sure what lower action means... I'm not a player.

228 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:33:59pm

re: #111 sattv4u2

re: #98 Kruk

OR ,,, "I better be packing when I take my 9 y/o to the store in case a whack job opens fire,, maybe I can take him down before he takes me down"

I assume that would lead to a bounce in all gun brands.

229 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:34:20pm

re: #222 John Q

I think Texas should try it at a state level. As a pilot program. But not until we build a giant wall along the northern border.

Have fun kids!

230 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:34:26pm

re: #222 John Q

So if you want to walk around with a loaded RPG or Stinger missile, I'd say you have the right to

Really? Really really?

231 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:34:30pm

re: #224 BigPapa

I have never heard of this guy. Who is he?

232 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:34:51pm

re: #196 rwmofo

Conservatives get pissed off when people lie. Conversely, liberals get pissed off when we tell the truth.

This line does not jibe at all with the vitriolic shit that has been slung at Sheriff Dupnik over his truthful comment about, well, vitriolic shit.

But of course, the crowd of howler monkeys slinging shit at him now, from Breitbart to Levin to Limbaugh, etc., those douchebags are not even close to being conservatives.

233 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:35:17pm

re: #196 rwmofo

Trust me, the GOP is going to skew the election results in our favor all on their own doing.

234 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:35:53pm

re: #231 ProLifeLiberal

I have never heard of this guy. Who is he?

Some fool Charles is going back n forth with on Twitter. Eric Boehlert has been dropping fatties all day, his name is familiar. I Followed him.

235 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:35:57pm

re: #196 rwmofo

So at this point it's painfully obvious that politics--or more to the point--the Republican Party had nothing to do with the murders in AZ last weekend. But even more obvious is the increasing disappointment we see from the media/Democrat party since they can't hang this on Republicans, Sarah Palin, Rush, Newt, or any well-know conservative.

The media/Democrat party needs something, anything to reverse the 2010 election results. They've twisted themselves into knots trying to spin this, but much to their chagrin, their viewers/readers aren't buying it. And, of course, they're still pissed at the voters.

The media/Democrat party really, really wanted violence to break out at a Tea Party event. That would have been the topping on the dessert they were trying to push in the run-up to the last election. Damn! Didn't happen.

One last point. Why does it seem that the "right-wing" is in such a frenzy over this? Simple. Conservatives get pissed off when people lie. Conversely, liberals get pissed off when we tell the truth.

Interesting! Do you watch Fox News?

236 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:36:11pm

re: #232 Slumbering Behemoth

But of course, the crowd of howler monkeys slinging shit at him now, from Breitbart to Levin to Limbaugh, etc., those douchebags are not even close to being conservatives.

Sure they are. They conserve their shit in huge piles around the monkey cage and only throw it at other people, not at each other. =P

237 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:36:23pm

I think rwmofo is now officially completely submerged in the fever swamp.

238 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:37:08pm

Happy Birthday Mary J. Blige. This hot chick can sing.

239 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:37:51pm

re: #237 Fozzie Bear

I think rwmofo is now officially completely submerged in the fever swamp.

I shudder to think I may have ever been anywhere like that. But I was never that trollish even in my early days on MotherJones forums.

240 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:37:56pm

re: #238 rwmofo

Your first and only worthwhile post in this thread. Good job.

241 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:38:12pm

re: #196 rwmofo

So at this point it's painfully obvious that politics--or more to the point--the Republican Party had nothing to do with the murders in AZ last weekend.

Just our of curiosity - how do you know that a paranoid shooter who was obsessed with the gold standard, a "One World Government" and who wrote anti-government rants was not influenced by anti-government rhetoric that focuses on the gold standard and a "One World Government?"

Do you have some deep insight into the shooter's mind? A Vulcan mind-meld, perhaps?

242 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:38:26pm

re: #230 Obdicut

Really? Really really?

I want to walk around with a multi megaton bomb in a Red Ryder wagon.
Yeah!

243 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:38:38pm

re: #222 John Q

Whoa. I spent years advocating for the 2nd, but ya blew right by me with that one. Are you expecting an air strike?

244 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:39:00pm

re: #196 rwmofo

So at this point it's painfully obvious that politics--or more to the point--the Republican Party had nothing to do with the murders in AZ last weekend. But even more obvious is the increasing disappointment we see from the media/Democrat party since they can't hang this on Republicans, Sarah Palin, Rush, Newt, or any well-know conservative.

The media/Democrat party needs something, anything to reverse the 2010 election results. They've twisted themselves into knots trying to spin this, but much to their chagrin, their viewers/readers aren't buying it. And, of course, they're still pissed at the voters.

The media/Democrat party really, really wanted violence to break out at a Tea Party event. That would have been the topping on the dessert they were trying to push in the run-up to the last election. Damn! Didn't happen.

One last point. Why does it seem that the "right-wing" is in such a frenzy over this? Simple. Conservatives get pissed off when people lie. Conversely, liberals get pissed off when we tell the truth.

Wow, this is such a Chewbacca defense I don't even know where to start taking it apart, well played good sir....

245 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:39:03pm

re: #230 Obdicut

Can't be serious. That'd be like saying the first amendment gives you the right to shout "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, and makes slander, defamation, and libel laws void, wouldn't it?

246 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:39:08pm

re: #243 Rightwingconspirator

Whoa. I spent years advocating for the 2nd, but ya blew right by me with that one. Are you expecting an air strike?

NO ONE EXPECTS THE FLYING CIRCUS!

247 brookly red  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:40:00pm

re: #242 Varek Raith

I want to walk around with a multi megaton bomb in a Red Ryder wagon.
Yeah!

/I have learned to kill with my thoughts...

248 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:40:15pm

re: #222 John Q

So if you want to walk around with a loaded RPG or Stinger missile, I'd say you have the right to - until we're smart enough to repeal or amend the second amendment.

Fuck that. We're not Somalia. We don't need people walking around with RPG's on their shoulder.

249 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:40:34pm

re: #200 Fozzie Bear

re: #190 marjoriemoon

I wouldn't assume motivations to be that craven. Keep in mind this kid is very likely insane and deeply delusional, and the defense attorney isn't going to have anything available to her other than the same evidence the state has against him.

I don't think an insanity defense would necessarily be so far off the mark.

There's not much else. There's no question of guilt. It's going to be degree of murder, from pre-meditation, certainly of Giffords, but maybe 2nd or 3rd degree on the others.

The question I have to ask in these cases is, just how clinically insane do you have to be to do something like this? I get it, yet I don't get it...

The legal difference being between prison/death row v. hospital.

And it's Arizona.

250 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:40:42pm

re: #238 rwmofo

I've had a crush on her since I was a teenager.

251 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:41:04pm

re: #222 John Q

-1 dude. You are hurting the cause with stuff like that.

252 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:41:23pm

re: #175 austin_blue

Hey Reine! Your Tigers did *good* in the Cotton Bowl.

Is the Roi back?

Hope so.

Hey, Austin B!
Yes, and yes!
AND, Les Miles is apparently going to stay at LSU.
Good news all the way around.

253 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:41:43pm

Guys, that John Q guy was clearly trolling. Nobody who really believes that can construct a sentence, let alone turn on a computer.

Think about how dumb you have to be to reeeeally think that's a good idea.

254 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:41:57pm

re: #35 Charles

He wouldn't say he got this from CBS if he didn't. That would be really dumb.

That's something James O'Keefe would do.

255 dragonfire1981  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:42:24pm

"Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth"

If there is some violent uprising in the future, I'm certain historians will look back on what happened in the U.S. following the election of Barack Obama and be simply amazed at how so many lies became truth thanks to the right wing media machine.

Think of some of the things far right people believe:

- Obama is a socialist/communist
- Obama is a Muslim
- Obama was born in Kenya
- George Soros is Satan's minion
- 9/11 was an inside job
- Democrats are just itching to ram gun control down our throats
- Obama has a secret military force 1 000 000 strong at his disposal
- Healthcare reform was a government takeover of healthcare that effectively brought Universal health care to America.
- Democrats care more about illegal immigrants than legal citizens

And I'm sure I'm forgetting some! It's like an entire political movement born completely out of lies.

I love the internet, I think it's one of the most wonderful creations mankind can lay claim to, but it's also very dangerous. I just can't see this kind of political heat existing so openly and so prominently before the days of the internet.

I don't doubt for a moment historians will look at this and wonder how things got so far off the rails.

256 garhighway  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:42:29pm

Levity is needed here.

Try this:

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

257 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:42:47pm

re: #242 Varek Raith

I want to walk around with a multi megaton bomb in a Red Ryder wagon.
Yeah!

Can't be done. But a 90-pound 125-kiloton cracker is right up your alley!

258 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:43:09pm

re: #221 Fozzie Bear

I had to read this a third time before my eyes registered "local place" rather than "local police". HOLY SHIT OBDI HAS GONE CRAZY AND SOON WE'LL SEE BALD MUGSHOTS ON THE NEWS

I can never go bald. I have a severely misshapen head.

It's like my skull has a skull.

Totally not noticeable with hair, but bald, I scare children.

259 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:43:53pm

re: #257 austin_blue

Can't be done. But a 90-pound 125-kiloton cracker is right up your alley!

Kiloton?
Awww, weaksauce is weak!
Oh, well, I'll take it.

260 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:43:58pm

Peter Sinclair has an ominous take from the climate denial front respective of recent events.

Another worry I have is as decades pass and climate impacts hit us harder and harder, more flipped out kooks like James J Lee (Discovery Channel shooter whacked out over climate/population) will happen more and more.

And will be blamed on environmentalism by the deniers.

261 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:44:00pm

re: #249 marjoriemoon

There's not much else. There's no question of guilt. It's going to be degree of murder, from pre-meditation, certainly of Giffords, but maybe 2nd or 3rd degree on the others.

The question I have to ask in these cases is, just how clinically insane do you have to be to do something like this? I get it, yet I don't get it...

The legal difference being between prison/death row v. hospital.

And it's Arizona.

I dunno. I tend to think this kid belongs in a hospital. You don't gain anything from jailing somebody that nuts in perpetuity.

262 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:45:02pm

re: #196 rwmofo

So at this point it's painfully obvious that politics--or more to the point--the Republican Party had nothing to do with the murders in AZ last weekend. But even more obvious is the increasing disappointment we see from the media/Democrat party since they can't hang this on Republicans, Sarah Palin, Rush, Newt, or any well-know conservative.

The media/Democrat party needs something, anything to reverse the 2010 election results. They've twisted themselves into knots trying to spin this, but much to their chagrin, their viewers/readers aren't buying it. And, of course, they're still pissed at the voters.

The media/Democrat party really, really wanted violence to break out at a Tea Party event. That would have been the topping on the dessert they were trying to push in the run-up to the last election. Damn! Didn't happen.

One last point. Why does it seem that the "right-wing" is in such a frenzy over this? Simple. Conservatives get pissed off when people lie. Conversely, liberals get pissed off when we tell the truth.

Agreed. From what's been learned so far, Loughner had started to fixate on Giffords back in 2007. His main motives were delusional and don't like to any campaign rhetoric. At least some of this spin is an attempt by the left to immobilize the Republican party.

263 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:45:35pm

re: #243 Rightwingconspirator

Whoa. I spent years advocating for the 2nd, but ya blew right by me with that one. Are you expecting an air strike?

I've heard the argument before - it's based on the premise that the FF's wanted free men to be able to report for militia duty with all their small arms and gear but keep crew served weapons (in those days only canons) restricted to the government and stored in armories. Most of those I've heard argue it feel that the National Firearms Act of 1934 (let alone the Gun Control Act of 1968) was unconstitutional.

264 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:45:38pm

re: #252 reine.de.tout

Hey, Austin B!
Yes, and yes!
AND, Les Miles is apparently going to stay at LSU.
Good news all the way around.

Excellent. Finally, a Happy New Year.

Good for you.

265 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:46:11pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

You agree with this?

But even more obvious is the increasing disappointment we see from the media/Democrat party since they can't hang this on Republicans, Sarah Palin, Rush, Newt, or any well-know conservative.

And this?

Conservatives get pissed off when people lie. Conversely, liberals get pissed off when we tell the truth.

266 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:46:12pm

Dark_Falcon just fell in the swamp.

267 garhighway  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:46:33pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. From what's been learned so far, Loughner had started to fixate on Giffords back in 2007. His main motives were delusional and don't like to any campaign rhetoric. At least some of this spin is an attempt by the left to immobilize the Republican party.

How? By asking it to scale back on violent rhetoric? That would immobilize it how, exactly?

268 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:46:48pm

re: #241 Talking Point Detective

Just our of curiosity - how do you know that a paranoid shooter who was obsessed with the gold standard, a "One World Government" and who wrote anti-government rants was not influenced by anti-government rhetoric that focuses on the gold standard and a "One World Government?"

Do you have some deep insight into the shooter's mind? A Vulcan mind-meld, perhaps?

I'll go out on a limb and speculate - much like what we've heard from ABC/CBS/NBC/MSNBC/NY Times, etc.

1) The young man who shot all those people appears to be mentally ill.

2) At this point he hasn't declared that Sarah Palin drove him over the edge, but once Geraldo or Katie Couric or whomever eventually gets the interview, what are the odds they'll ask him if he was influenced by the right?

269 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:46:49pm

re: #258 Obdicut

I can never go bald. I have a severely misshapen head.

It's like my skull has a skull.

Totally not noticeable with hair, but bald, I scare children.

Well here's some who still looks good without hair:

Your new Miss America might be beautiful — and bald

270 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:46:49pm

re: #251 Rightwingconspirator

Methinks that could be the point. We'll see.

271 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:47:01pm

re: #244 jamesfirecat

Wow, this is such a Chewbacca defense I don't even know where to start taking it apart, well played good sir...

More like Wight Wing Woo. Chewbacca was actually on the right side of the issues and intelligent.

272 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:48:21pm

re: #268 rwmofo

I'll go out on a limb and speculate - much like what we've heard from ABC/CBS/NBC/MSNBC/NY Times, etc.

1) The young man who shot all those people appears to be mentally ill.

2) At this point he hasn't declared that Sarah Palin drove him over the edge, but once Geraldo or Katie Couric or whomever eventually gets the interview, what are the odds they'll ask him if he was influenced by the right?

Do you honestly believe this guy is going to get a television interview? What planet do you live on? Is the weather nice there?

273 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:48:22pm

re: #171 Fozzie Bear

Wow. Now that would be a twist I didn't see coming.

No one could.

274 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:48:27pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. From what's been learned so far, Loughner had started to fixate on Giffords back in 2007. His main motives were delusional and don't like to any campaign rhetoric. At least some of this spin is an attempt by the left to immobilize the Republican party.

Please reread his post and reconsider.

275 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:48:47pm

re: #269 Dark_Falcon

Well here's some who still looks good without hair:

Your new Miss America might be beautiful — and bald

She has my vote!

276 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:48:51pm

re: #267 garhighway

That would immobilize it how, exactly?

By shutting up its howler monkey chorus of Limbaugh, Beck, Savage, Levin, and the rest.

277 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:48:51pm

re: #269 Dark_Falcon

She's pretty adorable anyway. I've always been fond of a fuzzy head on a girl. And mohawks.

278 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:48:57pm

re: #259 Varek Raith

Kiloton?
Awww, weaksauce is weak!
Oh, well, I'll take it.

Hey, 8 Hiroshima's isn't a popcorn fart.

279 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:49:04pm

re: #261 Fozzie Bear

I dunno. I tend to think this kid belongs in a hospital. You don't gain anything from jailing somebody that nuts in perpetuity.

I don't know either. I think removing him indefinitely from society is a good thing, but after that, it gets confusing.

If he knew what he was doing was wrong and thought he would simply punish innocent people, lash out at the world, I'm 100% ok with prison.

280 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:49:17pm

re: #265 Obdicut

You agree with this?

And this?

Not all of it. But I do think that the Republican party does not bear responsibility for these murders, and I think attempts to blame a 'climate of hate' are also an attempt to immobilize the GOP with accusations.

281 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:49:28pm

re: #168 Slumbering Behemoth

I'd be willing to bet that there are an awful lot of filled graves out there that are a direct result of the "Liberal = Unarmed" myth. Just sayin'.

Well, I know for sure of a few broken noses and smashed-up jaws that were a direct result of the "Queer=Defenseless" myth.

282 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:49:49pm

re: #268 rwmofo

I'll go out on a limb and speculate - much like what we've heard from ABC/CBS/NBC/MSNBC/NY Times, etc.

1) The young man who shot all those people appears to be mentally ill.

2) At this point he hasn't declared that Sarah Palin drove him over the edge, but once Geraldo or Katie Couric or whomever eventually gets the interview, what are the odds they'll ask him if he was influenced by the right?

1) No shit, nobody has said otherwise.
2) Bullshit, nobody has hung this directly on Sarah Palin.

Double fallacy.

283 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:50:26pm

re: #177 marjoriemoon

Sheriff Dupnik seemed to me to be sick and tired of being the powder keg of the U.S. Looked at as the new racist state. This was like the icing on the cake. Quite frankly, I saw a very pained man venting his frustration. I can't imagine how any law enforcement person would feel when something like this happens. At any rate, lots of us were happy he said it.

Arpaio thinks someone else is too political? He's been dancing for the cameras for ages.

284 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:50:32pm

re: #255 dragonfire1981

ram gun control down our throats


There's been so much use of that 'down our throats' phrase.
Maybe it's a stomach-centered thing.

285 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:50:47pm

re: #272 Fozzie Bear

Do you honestly believe this guy is going to get a television interview? What planet do you live on? Is the weather nice there?

Did Manson get an interview? Yes. Yes he did.

286 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:51:00pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Not all of it. But I do think that the Republican party does not bear responsibility for these murders, and I think attempts to blame a 'climate of hate' are also an attempt to immobilize the GOP with accusations.

Can you explain how pointing out the very, very, very true fact that the GOP has used large amounts of violent rhetoric is an attempt to immobilize the GOP?

How can you distinguish that from an actual desire for the GOP to stop using dangerous and inflammatory rhetoric?

287 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:51:29pm

re: #275 rwmofo

re: #277 Obdicut


Well, at least I found one thing you guys can agree about. :)

288 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:51:39pm

I feel very sorry for his family.
They were as blindsided by his actions, as the innocent victims he shot.

289 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:51:39pm

re: #214 wlewisiii

The part of Wisconsin I grew up in was Democratic, quite liberal, heavily unionized and very heavily armed.

///Well what do you expect from union thugs?

290 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:51:44pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Not all of it. But I do think that the Republican party does not bear responsibility for these murders, and I think attempts to blame a 'climate of hate' are also an attempt to immobilize the GOP with accusations.

So he got all bunged up about the lack of a gold standard, the size of government and purported poor English literacy in a void?

291 garhighway  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:51:53pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Not all of it. But I do think that the Republican party does not bear responsibility for these murders, and I think attempts to blame a 'climate of hate' are also an attempt to immobilize the GOP with accusations.

Is the GOP "immobile" without violent rhetoric? Are their ideas somehow rendered less persuasive if they are described in a calm, rational way?

292 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:52:58pm

Bleh. I'll catch you guys later.

Time for beer and video games. Peach!

293 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:53:15pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Not all of it. But I do think that the Republican party does not bear responsibility for these murders, and I think attempts to blame a 'climate of hate' are also an attempt to immobilize the GOP with accusations.

Exactly. They're deceitfully trying to put all Republicans on defense. As if we actually wanted some innocent person to be shot or worse. Disgusting.

294 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:54:25pm

re: #293 rwmofo

It sucks when someone listens to the rhetoric being spewed and takes it as permission, doesn't it?

295 garhighway  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:54:32pm

re: #293 rwmofo

Exactly. They're deceitfully trying to put all Republicans on defense. As if we actually wanted some innocent person to be shot or worse. Disgusting.

So the violent rhetoric is OK with you?

296 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:55:32pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. From what's been learned so far, Loughner had started to fixate on Giffords back in 2007. His main motives were delusional and don't like to any campaign rhetoric. At least some of this spin is an attempt by the left to immobilize the Republican party.

Wow, DF, I think you are missing the overall point, here.

If you have a propaganda machine (Fox, Limbaugh, Alex Jones) that continues to bore into the head of a fragile psyche that THE GOVERNMENT IS YOUR ENEMY, bad things just *might* happen.

Arizona is a target rich environment for the disturbed. If you want to hit a fringe target, why not Arpaio or Gov. Brewer? Why attack a moderate, Jewish, pro-gun Rep who is married to an NASA Astronaut?

297 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:55:37pm

re: #293 rwmofo

Exactly. They're deceitfully trying to put all Republicans on defense. As if we actually wanted some innocent person to be shot or worse. Disgusting.

Republicans are the real victims here.
/

298 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:55:49pm

re: #256 garhighway

Levity is needed here.

Try this:

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

YOU CALL THIS LEVITY? OH GOD MY EYES! BRAIN BLEACH, BRAIN BLEACH!

299 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:55:53pm

This aberration targeted and murdered a politician, hence it has become political. What is being lost is the horror of the whole episode including the cold blooded murder of a sweet little girl and other innocents. This is just wrong. The sooner this monster is disposed of and the sooner everyone just shuts the hell up the better.

300 garhighway  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:56:18pm

re: #298 jamesfirecat

YOU CALL THIS LEVITY? OH GOD MY EYES! BRAIN BLEACH, BRAIN BLEACH!

Good point.

301 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:57:07pm

re: #266 Fozzie Bear

Dark_Falcon just fell in the swamp.

Fuck it I like that guy, come on everyone lets get some rope, some lamps, and follow Lassie we don't have much time!

302 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:57:17pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Not all of it. But I do think that the Republican party does not bear responsibility for these murders, and I think attempts to blame a 'climate of hate' are also an attempt to immobilize the GOP with accusations.

1. There is no way ever to know what caused this. It's impossible to re-run the experiment.

2. Much of the GOP really really has become a 'climate of hate', lately. This sort of thing has the potential to cause much more bloodshed than we have seen so far. There are countless examples of this around the world, and throughout history. It is naive in the extreme to think that somehow America is an exception to this rule.

When things like this happen, you can't determine exactly what caused the person to go off, because it's a combination of things. Ponder the middle east. Then tell me violent ideology and rhetoric is not something to be concerned about.

303 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:57:48pm

re: #294 Lidane

It sucks when someone listens to the rhetoric being spewed and takes it as permission, doesn't it?

I didn't mention the time when our President said he needs to bring a gun to a knife fight (paraphrasing). Reasonable people know he didn't want anyone to be hurt. It's just an expression from a movie.

304 garhighway  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:58:40pm

re: #303 rwmofo

I didn't mention the time when our President said he needs to bring a gun to a knife fight (paraphrasing). Reasonable people know he didn't want anyone to be hurt. It's just an expression from a movie.

But it would appear that you just did.

305 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:59:33pm

re: #286 Obdicut

Can you explain how pointing out the very, very, very true fact that the GOP has used large amounts of violent rhetoric is an attempt to immobilize the GOP?

Saying that the rhetoric has gotten overheated is not the same as the 'climate of hate' allegation. Saying that a party has fostered a 'climate of hate' backs the other side into a corner.

How can you distinguish that from an actual desire for the GOP to stop using dangerous and inflammatory rhetoric?

One cannot be sure, but given past attempts within the media to portray conservatives as haters it is a probability. We saw it endlessly during the Bush years, with George W. supporters being referred to as "American Taliban" (though not, be it noted, from any liberal who post on this blog).

And I haven't gone wingnut. I've got a Scott Wheeler column I'll be fisking in an hour or two.

306 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:59:50pm

re: #303 rwmofo

I didn't mention

Except that you did.

FAIL, just like every other talking point you've spewed so far.

307 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 7:59:53pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Not all of it. But I do think that the Republican party does not bear responsibility for these murders, and I think attempts to blame a 'climate of hate' are also an attempt to immobilize the GOP with accusations.

Dark... what do you think the GOP is going to lose if it is argued successfully that they've created a climate of hate?

What are you defending?

You must consider the terrain before you go out to do battle...

308 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:00:17pm

re: #304 garhighway

But it would appear that you just did.

What I did was give him a pass. The clue was when I said "Reasonable people know he didn't want anyone to be hurt."

309 KingKenrod  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:00:24pm

re: #196 rwmofo

So at this point it's painfully obvious that politics--or more to the point--the Republican Party had nothing to do with the murders in AZ last weekend. But even more obvious is the increasing disappointment we see from the media/Democrat party since they can't hang this on Republicans, Sarah Palin, Rush, Newt, or any well-know conservative.

The media/Democrat party needs something, anything to reverse the 2010 election results. They've twisted themselves into knots trying to spin this, but much to their chagrin, their viewers/readers aren't buying it. And, of course, they're still pissed at the voters.

The media/Democrat party really, really wanted violence to break out at a Tea Party event. That would have been the topping on the dessert they were trying to push in the run-up to the last election. Damn! Didn't happen.

One last point. Why does it seem that the "right-wing" is in such a frenzy over this? Simple. Conservatives get pissed off when people lie. Conversely, liberals get pissed off when we tell the truth.

They're in a frenzy because people are pointing out their bad behavior at a time when emotions are running high, and that means the label might finally stick. No one wants to become the standard bearer for political instability.

The left can be faulted for pouncing too quick on this. I'm not surprised they're eager to push back since they've recently suffered a humiliating defeat. There's clearly some opportunism here.

But guess what? Politics is all about making the most out of opportunity. The radical right showed their ass, they deserve to get it kicked.

310 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:00:30pm

re: #290 goddamnedfrank

So he got all bunged up about the lack of a gold standard, the size of government and purported poor English literacy in a void?

Yep. He completely randomly chose those things to get upset about, when factors beyond anyone's control made these ideas just appear in his head. Like a vehement opposition to abortion, an obsession with currencies not issued by the fed, the gold standard, and belief in the illegitimacy of the federal government and taxation. Totally random accident. Could have happened to anybody.

311 Stanghazi  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:00:33pm

re: #303 rwmofo

I didn't mention the time when our President said he needs to bring a gun to a knife fight (paraphrasing). Reasonable people know he didn't want anyone to be hurt. It's just an expression from a movie.

THIS AGAIN?

Fuck, 4 days straight!

312 engineer cat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:00:50pm

re: #293 rwmofo

Exactly. They're deceitfully trying to put all Republicans on defense. As if we actually wanted some innocent person to be shot or worse. Disgusting.

can you guarantee me then that no republicans will henceforth be employing colorful metaphors involving guns or other violent actions when mentioning opponents?

313 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:00:50pm

re: #305 Dark_Falcon

Saying that the rhetoric has gotten overheated is not the same as the 'climate of hate' allegation. Saying that a party has fostered a 'climate of hate' backs the other side into a corner..

Or maybe the Republicans backed themselves into that corner by going totally batshit on the rhetoric?

314 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:01:09pm

re: #305 Dark_Falcon

Saying that the rhetoric has gotten overheated is not the same as the 'climate of hate' allegation. Saying that a party has fostered a 'climate of hate' backs the other side into a corner.

What corner? What are you talking about? The GOP has allowed incredibly unwise, unsafe, and inflammatory rhetoric to be bandied about. This is true. Do you not think it is?

One cannot be sure, but given past attempts within the media to portray conservatives as haters it is a probability.

"The media"? Like Newscorp?

315 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:01:43pm

Hm.
My twitter screen just went blank, and continues to be blank when I refresh.
Anyone else having a problem with twitter?

316 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:01:53pm

re: #291 garhighway

Is the GOP "immobile" without violent rhetoric? Are their ideas somehow rendered less persuasive if they are described in a calm, rational way?

////Yes... if they came out and just said "We want to make rich people richer and the rest of you should live in poverty and if we'll feeling nice we'll let you visit our mansion in order to pick up our hunting hounds droppings" nobody would vote for them.

317 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:02:16pm

re: #3 Rightwingconspirator

I emailed your yahoo address, by the way, I hope that's the right one to use.

318 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:02:32pm

re: #311 Stanley Sea

THIS AGAIN?

Fuck, 4 days straight!

They're desperate to make that stick so it will invoke the Magical Balance Fairy.

319 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:02:32pm

re: #315 reine.de.tout

Same here!

320 austin_blue  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:02:39pm

And good night to Lizardi across the fruited plain and around the world. Sleep well and may tomorrow be better for you than today.

It's going down to 25 tonight! Save us Baby Jeebus!

321 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:03:14pm

re: #309 KingKenrod

"But guess what? Politics is all about making the most out of opportunity."

...and with that observation, you just summed up what the media/Democrat Party have been up to since Saturday. Too bad we couldn't just get straight news.

322 garhighway  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:03:43pm

re: #308 rwmofo

What I did was give him a pass. The clue was when I said "Reasonable people know he didn't want anyone to be hurt."

Oh, please. Be an adult.

323 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:03:46pm

re: #321 rwmofo

Concerned poster is concerned.

324 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:03:57pm

re: #319 jaunte

Same here!

OK.
When I looked at tweetdeck, I'm getting some unfriendly tweets, timed at right about the same time my screen went blank - I thought maybe somebody somehow hacked it or something. But apparently twitter is just having problems.

325 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:03:58pm

re: #303 rwmofo

I didn't mention the time when our President said he needs to bring a gun to a knife fight (paraphrasing). Reasonable people know he didn't want anyone to be hurt. It's just an expression from a movie.

I would totally never publicaly mention that time that you raped and murdered a hooker, then dumped her in a landfill in april of 1992 in Phoenix. Reasonable people know that would be an absurd accusation to make. It's just hyperbole.

326 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:03:59pm

re: #321 rwmofo

Are you going to keep dodging this question?

Why do you keep calling it the media/Democrat party, when the most obvious and blatant association between media and a political party is the GOP and Newscorp?

327 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:04:11pm

re: #296 austin_blue

Wow, DF, I think you are missing the overall point, here.

If you have a propaganda machine (Fox, Limbaugh, Alex Jones) that continues to bore into the head of a fragile psyche that THE GOVERNMENT IS YOUR ENEMY, bad things just *might* happen.

Arizona is a target rich environment for the disturbed. If you want to hit a fringe target, why not Arpaio or Gov. Brewer? Why attack a moderate, Jewish, pro-gun Rep who is married to an NASA Astronaut?

I don't know why he fixated on her. It's not known yet. And given that he may well have fixated before the rhetoric started up in earnest (it started in 2009, while we know that Loughner was was paying attention to Giffords as early as 2007), its not sure if any campaign rhetoric played a role in setting him off.

328 bratwurst  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:04:48pm

re: #308 rwmofo

What I did was give him a pass.

Wow, how can he ever thank you?

329 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:04:48pm

re: #268 rwmofo

I'll go out on a limb and speculate - much like what we've heard from ABC/CBS/NBC/MSNBC/NY Times, etc.

1) The young man who shot all those people appears to be mentally ill.

2) At this point he hasn't declared that Sarah Palin drove him over the edge, but once Geraldo or Katie Couric or whomever eventually gets the interview, what are the odds they'll ask him if he was influenced by the right?

The perp is being held on charges of six counts of murder and God alone know what else. I don't expect him to appear on Geraldo any time soon.

330 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:05:08pm

re: #327 Dark_Falcon

Do you understand the direct claim is not being made that campaign rhetoric set him off?

331 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:05:23pm

re: #321 rwmofo

"But guess what? Politics is all about making the most out of opportunity."

...and with that observation, you just summed up what the media/Democrat Party have been up to since Saturday. Too bad we couldn't just get straight news.

You want straight news? Watch the Daily Show, its as close as you're gonna get...

332 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:05:25pm

re: #324 reine.de.tout

Could be all that snow.

333 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:05:31pm

re: #308 rwmofo

What I did was give him a pass. The clue was when I said "Reasonable people know he didn't want anyone to be hurt."

For the love of...
"Bringing a knife to a gunfight" is a commonly used expression.
"2nd amendment remedies" and "Don't retreat, reload" and "Violence is never off the table" are NOT IN THE SAME CATEGORY.

334 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:05:32pm

re: #302 Fozzie Bear

1. There is no way ever to know what caused this. It's impossible to re-run the experiment.

2. Much of the GOP really really has become a 'climate of hate', lately. This sort of thing has the potential to cause much more bloodshed than we have seen so far.

Just as climate prediction models cannot predict a temp or a storm at a time or a space, but can predict increasing temperatures that increase temps and storms at times or spaces, we can never predict X amount of whackos going off in X amount of time. But I'd like somebody to make a case that the heated rhetoric has no effect.

This hyperbole is like CO2 in our national psyche, slowly increasing towards catastrophic consequences, of which nobody can predict a particular one.

335 engineer cat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:05:44pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

an attempt to immobilize the GOP with accusations.

i have heard plenty of things from republicans that i would describe as attempting to immobilize the democratic party with accusations

"death panels" was only one of the most egregious

when the republican party is busy trying to immobilize the democratic party with accusations, they don't seem to see any need for apoligizing for it

336 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:05:58pm

re: #327 Dark_Falcon

Gee. Maybe political differences made him fixate, given the fact that he went to a similar rally back in 2007 and asked her a question. He said he found her answers weak and unsatisfying. That could've been the catalyst for everything.

She's a member of Congress. Shooting her was a political act.

337 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:06:16pm

re: #314 Obdicut

What corner? What are you talking about? The GOP has allowed incredibly unwise, unsafe, and inflammatory rhetoric to be bandied about. This is true. Do you not think it is?

I've condemned that rhetoric before, and I still do so.

"The media"? Like Newscorp?

Like NBC, Newsweek, the New York Times, take your pick.

338 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:07:02pm

re: #337 Dark_Falcon

I've condemned that rhetoric before, and I still do so.

Then what is the problem with condemnation of the rhetoric?


Like NBC, Newsweek, the New York Times, take your pick.

Why doesn't Newscorp count as the media?

339 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:07:06pm

re: #323 Lidane

Concerned poster is concerned.

You don't say...

340 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:07:32pm

re: #335 engineer dog

i have heard plenty of things from republicans that i would describe as attempting to immobilize the democratic party with accusations

"death panels" was only one of the most egregious

when the republican party is busy trying to immobilize the democratic party with accusations, they don't seem to see any need for apoligizing for it

And I landed on that loony rhetoric from Palin with both feet.

341 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:07:49pm

re: #325 Fozzie Bear

Heh. That's twice you've made me laugh. Ahhh, it can be fun stopping by here.

342 garhighway  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:08:03pm

So, DF, RW, et al, my question to you is:

Why do you think the GOP feels it needs to hang on to the violent rhetoric? Why can't they express their ideas and make their arguments in a calm, rational manner? Why would forswearing the violent rhetoric be so crippling?

343 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:08:39pm

re: #338 Obdicut

Why doesn't Newscorp count as the media?

I do count them. But you asked "What Media?" and so I cited some other examples.

344 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:09:42pm

re: #291 garhighway

Is the GOP "immobile" without violent rhetoric? Are their ideas somehow rendered less persuasive if they are described in a calm, rational way?

Yes.

345 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:10:08pm

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

I do count them. But you asked "What Media?" and so I cited some other examples.

Yes. But your original statement simply painted the media as hostile to conservatives, which is very, very, very false.

And again, if you condemn the violent rhetoric, why do you have a problem with others condemning the violent rhetoric, saying that when you have violent rhetoric you will get violence-- whether or not this particular incident was actually affected by that violent rhetoric?

346 harrogate  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:10:17pm

re: #196 rwmofo

There were acts of violence at Tea Party rallies. The Rand Paul stomp comes to mind right off the bat.

347 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:10:45pm

re: #321 rwmofo

"But guess what? Politics is all about making the most out of opportunity."

...and with that observation, you just summed up what the media/Democrat Party have been up to since Saturday. Too bad we couldn't just get straight news.

The media/Democratic party, nice. He also summed up what you and the media/Republican party has been doing.

More Right Wing Woo. I need my Slumbering Behemoth Smite key stat!

348 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:10:46pm

re: #318 Lidane

They're desperate to make that stick so it will invoke the Magical Balance Fairy.

The problem is that there's no pattern. They've got that one phrase, and the bulls-eyes, and by God, they're sticking to them.

349 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:11:09pm

re: #311 Stanley Sea

And we're counting!
LOL!

350 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:11:32pm

re: #333 Varek Raith

For the love of...
"Bringing a knife to a gunfight" is a commonly used expression.
"2nd amendment remedies" and "Don't retreat, reload" and "Violence is never off the table" are NOT IN THE SAME CATEGORY.

If you guys on the left were as open-minded about the 2nd Amendment as you are for the 1st, we'd have the right to bear nuclear arms.

351 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:12:07pm

re: #341 rwmofo

Heh. That's twice you've made me laugh. Ahhh, it can be fun stopping by here.

Why do you come by here, to laugh?

352 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:12:24pm

re: #315 reine.de.tout

Hm.
My twitter screen just went blank, and continues to be blank when I refresh.
Anyone else having a problem with twitter?

Hmm, they got attached by the Wikileaks supporters?
Maybe yes, maybe no!

353 garhighway  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:12:27pm

re: #350 rwmofo

If you guys on the left were as open-minded about the 2nd Amendment as you are for the 1st, we'd have the right to bear nuclear arms.

And the non sequitur machine just keeps on ticking!

354 brookly red  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:12:40pm

re: #346 harrogate

There were acts of violence at Tea Party rallies. The Rand Paul stomp comes to mind right off the bat.

oh please, there is worse at little league games...

355 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:12:58pm

re: #350 rwmofo

Did you ever find that link to an example of this:

even more obvious is the increasing disappointment we see from the media/Democrat party since they can't hang this on Republicans
356 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:13:01pm

re: #342 garhighway

So, DF, RW, et al, my question to you is:

Why do you think the GOP feels it needs to hang on to the violent rhetoric? Why can't they express their ideas and make their arguments in a calm, rational manner? Why would forswearing the violent rhetoric be so crippling?

This would require actual introspection, not the Republican strong suit. They would interpret it as an admission of weakness, having been wrong. Denial is more their game: plug the ears, acknowledge nothing, yell lalalalala and keep moving forward.

357 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:13:10pm

re: #354 brookly red

oh please, there is worse at little league games...

Didn't that woman end up with a fucking concussion?

358 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:13:18pm

re: #303 rwmofo

I didn't mention the time when our President said he needs to bring a gun to a knife fight (paraphrasing). Reasonable people know he didn't want anyone to be hurt. It's just an expression from a movie.

And we have the 211th repetition of the quote from The Untouchables, presented as if it was a call to violence. Pathetic. Over and over and over today, this blindingly lame talking point.

Facepalm.

359 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:13:23pm

re: #342 garhighway

So, DF, RW, et al, my question to you is:

Why do you think the GOP feels it needs to hang on to the violent rhetoric? Why can't they express their ideas and make their arguments in a calm, rational manner? Why would forswearing the violent rhetoric be so crippling?

This isn't the Violent Right Wing Woo Rhetoric you've been looking for. Nothing to see here, move along.

360 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:13:32pm

re: #350 rwmofo

Are you naturally that dense, or do you work at it?

361 bratwurst  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:13:42pm

re: #348 SanFranciscoZionist

The problem is that there's no pattern. They've got that one phrase, and the bulls-eyes, and by God, they're sticking to them.

And the "she's dead to me" thing. Don't forget that! We all know it carries the exact same menace as "second amendment remedies" and carrying signs to a political rally saying "we came unarmed...this time" or actually bringing a gun to a political rally.

362 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:14:02pm

re: #317 Obdicut

Replied. That one is fine.

363 gamark  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:14:04pm

re: #57 Charles

. But you'd still have to explain why nearly three times as many Republicans as Democrats answered yes.

My take on that is that the Republican party is ostensibly the party of individual responsibility and limited government while the Democratic party is ostensibly the party of government fighting for the downtrodden against the corporate rich. It is not really surprising at all that among the set of people answering yes to that question, the overwhelming majority place themselves in the Republican party.

364 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:14:05pm

re: #350 rwmofo

If you guys on the left were as open-minded about the 2nd Amendment as you are for the 1st, we'd have the right to bear nuclear arms.

That's a pretty stupid jab, given the horrendous statements that came tumbling out this election season, with nary a peep from you.

365 Stanghazi  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:14:22pm

re: #349 Floral Giraffe

And we're counting!
LOL!

Floral! Came home to housemate, with dog in her arms, attacked by coyote! What a freaking night. @ Animal hospital. Little dog, lucky as shit. She's going to be fine. Has a fentanyl patch on her little butt.

366 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:14:40pm

re: #350 rwmofo

If you guys on the left were as open-minded about the 2nd Amendment as you are for the 1st, we'd have the right to bear nuclear arms.

And, because I have moonbat roots to tip my hat to, remember, you can't hug a child with nuclear arms.

367 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:14:49pm

re: #346 harrogate

There were acts of violence at Tea Party rallies. The Rand Paul stomp comes to mind right off the bat.

Is that like the "wave" or the "watusi?"

368 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:15:03pm

re: #351 BigPapa

Why do you come by here, to laugh?

re: #351 BigPapa

Why do you come by here, to laugh?

Clearly, just to troll.
Shit stirring.

369 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:15:22pm

re: #363 gamark

The current Republican party wouldn't know personal or fiscal responsibility if it bit them in the ass.

370 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:15:31pm

re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist

OMG. Had not heard that since... Never mind what year. LOL

371 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:15:40pm

re: #365 Stanley Sea

Floral! Came home to housemate, with dog in her arms, attacked by coyote! What a freaking night. @ Animal hospital. Little dog, lucky as shit. She's going to be fine. Has a fentanyl patch on her little butt.

Lucky break. Damn. Poor baby.

372 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:16:27pm

re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, and you can't fly with just a right wing. Or left I suppose. Heh, the indy philosophy.

373 KingKenrod  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:16:29pm

re: #321 rwmofo

"But guess what? Politics is all about making the most out of opportunity."

...and with that observation, you just summed up what the media/Democrat Party have been up to since Saturday. Too bad we couldn't just get straight news.

Well, the right wing has been trying to deflect this on to the left wing since Saturday with the slimmest of evidence - Communist Manifesto, anyone? There's a post up at hotair right now suggesting it was rock music that pushed him over the edge...

374 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:16:43pm

re: #365 Stanley Sea

Bummer, glad the pup will be OK.

375 bratwurst  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:16:47pm

re: #350 rwmofo

If you guys on the left were as open-minded about the 2nd Amendment as you are for the 1st, we'd have the right to bear nuclear arms.

You are asinine.

376 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:17:13pm

re: #375 bratwurst

And unresponsive.

377 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:17:17pm

re: #346 harrogate

There were acts of violence at Tea Party rallies. The Rand Paul stomp comes to mind right off the bat.

That was covered in a lot of detail here. Ask Killgore what he thought of that when you get a chance. BTW, KT is one of the cooler heads on the left.

I will say this. If you repeatedly run at me--and I don't know you--I'll consider defending myself. Would I stomp on a girl's head - or someone who was essentially defenseless? Of course not.

378 gamark  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:17:30pm

re: #369 Lidane

Do you understand the word "ostensibly"?

379 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:17:34pm

re: #350 rwmofo

If you guys on the left were as open-minded about the 2nd Amendment as you are for the 1st, we'd have the right to bear nuclear arms.

That's not really true. An expansive view of the First Amendment is not unique to the left and even conservative legal organizations such as the Federalist Society support a narrower reading of the 2nd Amendment compared to the 1st. So I'm afraid that this argument must be marked as unsustainable.

380 engineer cat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:17:35pm

re: #350 rwmofo

If you guys on the left were as open-minded about the 2nd Amendment as you are for the 1st, we'd have the right to bear nuclear arms.

and i wish you guys on the right were as concerned about the health and education of american children as you are about the right to carry assault weapons

381 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:18:00pm

re: #378 gamark

Do you understand the reality that the current GOP doesn't know shit about personal or fiscal responsibility?

382 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:18:13pm

re: #5 albusteve
Oops missed that reply
I was a Reagan Republican. He'd be as indy as I am now I think.

383 brookly red  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:18:41pm

*sigh*

384 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:18:59pm

re: #369 Lidane

The current Republican party wouldn't know personal or fiscal responsibility if it bit them in the ass.

And to be fair, neither would the Democrats.
Most of us Americans are boony deep in debt.
Personally and politically.
It's called a BUDGET folks!
You spend less than what you make.
//Novel Concept.

385 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:19:11pm

re: #378 gamark

Do you understand the word "ostensibly"?

Opposite of "ouestensibly"?

386 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:19:30pm

Coyotes have a new family member;

Coyote + Wolf = Big, Carnivorous Coywolf

New DNA evidence reveals that coyotes have bred with wolves in the the northeastern United States, turning mice-eating coyotes into much larger animals with a hunger for big prey, such as deer.

The resulting "coywolves" may, however, benefit ecosystems, since they appear to be filling niches once occupied by wolves that were eradicated by humans.

"We are finding repeatedly that hybridization is more common than we used to think," lead author Roland Kays told Discovery News.

"This is an evolutionary mechanism to generate new variation that can work faster than genetic mutation," added Kays, curator of mammals at the New York State Museum.

Kays and colleagues Abigail Curtis and Jeremy Kirchman took mitochondrial DNA samples from 686 eastern coyotes housed in museums, or obtained by donations from hunters, fur trappers and various government agencies. The scientists also measured 196 coyote skulls.

The study, outlined in the latest Royal Society Biology Letters, reveals that some of the largest specimens were indeed coyote and wolf hybrids.

Given where these animals came from and the degree of documented genetic diversity, the researchers can tell that a few coyote females mated with male wolves north of the Great Lakes.

Subsequent coywolf population expanded into western New York and western Pennsylvania, which also have populations of pure coyotes.

387 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:19:49pm

re: #384 Floral Giraffe

Thank You!!!

388 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:19:57pm

re: #350 rwmofo

If you guys on the left were as open-minded about the 2nd Amendment as you are for the 1st, we'd have the right to bear nuclear arms.

Lol.
I'll just claim victory now if you're going to be this ridiculous.

389 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:20:13pm

re: #379 Dark_Falcon

That's not really true. An expansive view of the First Amendment is not unique to the left and even conservative legal organizations such as the Federalist Society support a narrower reading of the 2nd Amendment compared to the 1st. So I'm afraid that this argument must be marked as unsustainable.

There's the DF I expect.

So how good do you think the chances are for the real Super Bowl to happen on Jan 23 at Soldier Field (I think you get home field)?

390 Obdicut  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:20:40pm

re: #386 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

That's what my brother does research on.

391 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:20:52pm

re: #384 Floral Giraffe

Well, true. Neither party is perfect.

However, given the raving lunatics that call themselves Republicans here in Texas, I'll cast my lot with the party that doesn't deny science, or reason, or reality.

392 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:20:55pm

re: #386 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

That should help with the deer.

393 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:21:10pm

re: #351 BigPapa

Why do you come by here, to laugh?

There have definitely been episodes of jocularity around here (and I'd like to think I've made my contributions).

394 gamark  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:21:29pm

re: #381 Lidane

If you had better reading comprehension, you would understand I don't believe the self-perpetuated stereotypes of either party.

395 garhighway  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:21:56pm

re: #393 rwmofo

There have definitely been episodes of jocularity around here (and I'd like to think I've made my contributions).

Unintentionally, maybe.

396 Political Atheist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:22:08pm

re: #365 Stanley Sea

Oh hell. I hate those animals. Best wishes to the poor thing! It must be terrifying to get overcome in a fight like that.

397 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:22:25pm

You guys know that I wasn't on for much of the period around New Years, and on some of those days I noticed that believe it or not, on some days nobody manages to get their comments down dinged and the bottom 10 comments were empty....

These days some people seem to be beating down the door to be come famously infamous.

398 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:22:45pm

re: #394 gamark

Where did I ever suggest that you did?

Talk about a lack of comprehension.

399 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:22:58pm

I seriously believe we should kick them while they’re down. They deserve to be publicly flogged.

Even now, ClimateDepot’s Marc Morano reiterates his call for a “hostile reaction” to climate scientists
January 11, 2011

They're all doubling down.

400 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:23:13pm

re: #397 jamesfirecat

You guys know that I wasn't on for much of the period around New Years, and on some of those days I noticed that believe it or not, on some days nobody manages to get their comments down dinged and the bottom 10 comments were empty...

These days some people seem to be beating down the door to be come famously infamous.

There is a contest. Wanna enter?

401 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:23:17pm

re: #386 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Coyotes have a new family member;

Coyote + Wolf = Big, Carnivorous Coywolf

I hear that they're also learning How to use tools...

402 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:23:18pm

re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist

And, because I have moonbat roots to tip my hat to, remember, you can't hug a child with nuclear arms.

Heh. Let me get back to you on that.

403 BongCrodny  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:24:25pm

re: #393 rwmofo

There have definitely been episodes of jocularity around here (and I'd like to think I've made my contributions).


Heck, I laugh at you all the time.

404 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:25:15pm

Markos Moulitsas emailed CBS and asked for the partisan breakdown of responses...


It seems like only yesterday that Kos was "mean-spirited, dishonest, and vicious," and not a trusted partner.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And, this poll question is stupid because I would say that violence against the government would be acceptable if you were living in the Nazi Germany of 1942. The question is way too broad and doesn't tell us anything. Is the government a murderous regime?

405 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:25:20pm

re: #401 jamesfirecat

I hear that they're also learning How to use tools...

hahahahaha

I lol'ed loud enough to startle the cat.

406 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:25:30pm

re: #401 jamesfirecat

I hear that they're also learning How to use tools...

The Acme of predators.

407 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:25:39pm

re: #389 wlewisiii

There's the DF I expect.

So how good do you think the chances are for the real Super Bowl to happen on Jan 23 at Soldier Field (I think you get home field)?

The chances of a Bears-Packers NFC Championship Game are around 33%. Sadly, the most likely outcome is that the Atlanta Falcons defeat both the Packers and the Bears and go to the Superbowl. The Packers can beat Atlanta, but they probably won't.

408 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:26:34pm

The zombies they keep a comin fo mah BWAINZ!!!

409 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:26:45pm

re: #404 SeafoodGumbo

Markos Moulitsas emailed CBS and asked for the partisan breakdown of responses...


It seems like only yesterday that Kos was "mean-spirited, dishonest, and vicious," and not a trusted partner.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And, this poll question is stupid because I would say that violence against the government would be acceptable if you were living in the Nazi Germany of 1942. The question is way too broad and doesn't tell us anything. Is the government a murderous regime?

That was then, this is now.

410 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:26:47pm

re: #401 jamesfirecat

I hear that they're also learning How to use tools...

Oh its worse than that.

The larger, highly adaptable animals "have the wolf characteristics of pack hunting and aggression and the coyote characteristics of lack of fear of human-developed areas," says Trent University geneticist Bradley White, who's been studying the hybrids for 12 years.

We're seeing "evolution in action," he says.

But that combination of genetic material from both species has spelled trouble for farmers, who are losing a growing number of livestock to predators.

They report attacks by animals that are bigger, bolder and smarter than regular coyotes. They say hunting in packs to prey on sheep and cattle in broad daylight is becoming a common behaviour.

411 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:26:59pm

re: #386 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Coyotes have a new family member;

Coyote + Wolf = Big, Carnivorous Coywolf

to Young Earth Creationists: Try to spin your way out of this one!

412 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:27:11pm

re: #405 Fozzie Bear

hahahahaha

I lol'ed loud enough to startle the cat.

Honestly I'm surprised you didn't see it coming, what did you expect a link to?

413 Tigger2  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:27:30pm

re: #255 dragonfire1981

"Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth"

If there is some violent uprising in the future, I'm certain historians will look back on what happened in the U.S. following the election of Barack Obama and be simply amazed at how so many lies became truth thanks to the right wing media machine.

Think of some of the things far right people believe:

- Obama is a socialist/communist
- Obama is a Muslim
- Obama was born in Kenya
- George Soros is Satan's minion
- 9/11 was an inside job
- Democrats are just itching to ram gun control down our throats
- Obama has a secret military force 1 000 000 strong at his disposal
- Healthcare reform was a government takeover of healthcare that effectively brought Universal health care to America.
- Democrats care more about illegal immigrants than legal citizens

And I'm sure I'm forgetting some! It's like an entire political movement born completely out of lies.

I love the internet, I think it's one of the most wonderful creations mankind can lay claim to, but it's also very dangerous. I just can't see this kind of political heat existing so openly and so prominently before the days of the internet.

I don't doubt for a moment historians will look at this and wonder how things got so far off the rails.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
The Craven Joseph Goebbels quotes

[Link: thinkexist.com...]

414 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:27:52pm

re: #411 Dark_Falcon

to Young Earth Creationists: Try to spin your way out of this one!

God is mushing the animals together to fool us and test out faith.

415 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:28:04pm

re: #411 Dark_Falcon

to Young Earth Creationists: Try to spin your way out of this one!

ANOTHER GAP...wait...SHIT.

416 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:28:14pm

re: #411 Dark_Falcon

to Young Earth Creationists: Try to spin your way out of this one!

////Clearly just more poof why race mixin' is a blight upon the earth...

417 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:28:19pm

re: #412 jamesfirecat

Honestly I'm surprised you didn't see it coming, what did you expect a link to?

For whatever reason, I was expecting to see a dog scratching itself with a stick or something. Whatever it was, I didn't expect that. That was one of my favorite cartoons as a very young child.

418 What, me worry?  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:28:34pm

re: #409 Walter L. Newton

That was then, this is now.

Not to The Outsiders.

419 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:28:58pm

re: #417 Fozzie Bear

For whatever reason, I was expecting to see a dog scratching itself with a stick or something. Whatever it was, I didn't expect that. That was one of my favorite cartoons as a very young child.

Only as a young child?

420 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:29:02pm

re: #413 Tigger2

That's a coincidence; as you posted that I was reading this in another window:

a moderately successful Rightwing German politician of the 1930s recommended the Big Lie as a good tactic because the common folk, being honest, would not believe that anyone would have the audacity to confect such a lie.[Link: climateprogress.org...]
421 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:29:05pm

re: #404 SeafoodGumbo

Markos Moulitsas emailed CBS and asked for the partisan breakdown of responses...


It seems like only yesterday that Kos was "mean-spirited, dishonest, and vicious," and not a trusted partner.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And, this poll question is stupid because I would say that violence against the government would be acceptable if you were living in the Nazi Germany of 1942. The question is way too broad and doesn't tell us anything. Is the government a murderous regime?


MOrkos is a douchebag but he did email them and get the partisan breakdown for that question. If Instapundit or Hot Air emailed they'd get credit for the scoop.

422 wee fury  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:29:12pm

re: #407 Dark_Falcon

The chances of a Bears-Packers NFC Championship Game are around 33%. Sadly, the most likely outcome is that the Atlanta Falcons defeat both the Packers and the Bears and go to the Superbowl. The Packers can beat Atlanta, but they probably won't.

Packers will win it all. My opinion, of course. ;-)

423 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:29:22pm

re: #404 SeafoodGumbo

Markos Moulitsas emailed CBS and asked for the partisan breakdown of responses...


It seems like only yesterday that Kos was "mean-spirited, dishonest, and vicious," and not a trusted partner.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And, this poll question is stupid because I would say that violence against the government would be acceptable if you were living in the Nazi Germany of 1942. The question is way too broad and doesn't tell us anything. Is the government a murderous regime?

The Kos got rid of a number of wackos, while the conservatism picked up a larger number of wackos. That's the change. I wish it were not so, but it is.

424 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:29:58pm

re: #418 marjoriemoon

An S.E. Hinton reference? I'd give a thousand updings if I could, but you'll have to settle for one. :)

425 bratwurst  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:30:07pm

re: #418 marjoriemoon

Not to The Outsiders.

Do it for Johnny!

426 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:31:11pm

re: #410 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh its worse than that.

Perhaps this is why we're seeing the attacks on humans by coyotes which has been seriously rare until the last couple of years?

Evolution in action for real. I wonder how long till a new species is recognized?

427 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:31:13pm

re: #422 wee fury

Packers will win it all. My opinion, of course. ;-)

Not gonna happen. It's hard to see either the Packers or Bears defeating the Patriots or Steelers.

428 rwmofo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:31:30pm

Let me take a moment to thank you guys. Several months ago I noticed that I had a very embarrassing Karma rating. So I set out to adjust it accordingly, but couldn't have done it without your help. There are about a dozen of you who acknowledged me faithfully and repeatedly and I truly appreciate your help. So I'm sharing the credit for my negative Karma rating (finally!) with those of you who helped push me over the top.

My work is done here for tonight. I'm off to watch an episode or two of "Dexter - Season One."

It's been fun as usual. Bye for now.

429 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:31:35pm

re: #419 jamesfirecat

Only as a young child?

It was like the A-Team, for kids. (In that there was always an elaborate device.) Anything with gadgets in it would hook me.

430 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:31:53pm

re: #404 SeafoodGumbo

Markos Moulitsas emailed CBS and asked for the partisan breakdown of responses...


It seems like only yesterday that Kos was "mean-spirited, dishonest, and vicious," and not a trusted partner...

Can't think unless in binary terms? It's possible to think he's mean spirited and all the rest but would put up factual information that could be trusted.

This explains why so many people put up with crazy shit their people say, because their people occasionally say something that's factually correct and makes them happy.

This is not critical thinking, in fact it's not thinking at all.

431 Stanghazi  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:32:55pm

re: #396 Rightwingconspirator

Oh hell. I hate those animals. Best wishes to the poor thing! It must be terrifying to get overcome in a fight like that.

very traumatic. She's a little pup, so luck was with her. thank dog.

432 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:33:10pm

re: #426 wlewisiii

Perhaps this is why we're seeing the attacks on humans by coyotes which has been seriously rare until the last couple of years?

Evolution in action for real. I wonder how long till a new species is recognized?

Perhaps we've killed off all the stupid peacenik coyotes, and the new smart ones have a case of the ass.

433 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:33:10pm

re: #409 Walter L. Newton

The question says, "Do you think it is ever..." which means they're not only talking about "today," but "ever." Big difference.

434 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:33:30pm

re: #411 Dark_Falcon

to Young Earth Creationists: Try to spin your way out of this one!

Where are the transitional specimens?

435 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:33:57pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

I think it's how people really feel. A lot of people have feared eventual violence against elected officials, the president in particular.He's had secret service protection since the May of 2007, before a single primary and when he was 30 points behind Hillary Clinton. Perhaps you haven't been worried, but I've been worried about somebody being shot for nearly three years. If violent rhetoric matters and has an effect in other countries, is it really so unreasonable to fear it's affect here?

MSNBC Video

WASHINGTON — The Secret Service said Thursday that Sen. Barack Obama was being placed under their protection, the earliest ever for a presidential candidate.

Some people may be playing politics, but I don't think that's true in the general public. It's certainly not for me and I'm pissed that it has taken so long for a national discussion about this kind of rhetoric to happen. Whether this kid had a coherent political motivation or not, it should not have taken this kind of event for adults to have a discussion about maybe behaving and speaking like responsible adults.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't care if the right is getting their feelings hurt. Especially, after the lies and insinuations they have been making about people over the years. I'm still a little pissed about being called an unpatriotic traitor for not supporting the Iraq war and a communist for supporting universal health care.

436 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:34:05pm

re: #432 Decatur Deb

Perhaps we've killed off all the stupid peacenik coyotes, and the new smart ones have a case of the ass.

There's a Cracked for that....

437 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:34:59pm

re: #407 Dark_Falcon

The chances of a Bears-Packers NFC Championship Game are around 33%. Sadly, the most likely outcome is that the Atlanta Falcons defeat both the Packers and the Bears and go to the Superbowl. The Packers can beat Atlanta, but they probably won't.

Real possibility. I'm hoping Roger's talent will overcome MM's coaching incompetency but if he screws up the clock management or some such that's all she wrote.

My favorite possibility is Steelers-Packers, followed by Jets-Packers (two 6th seeds :) followed by the Bears stomping anyone else.

438 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:35:03pm

re: #428 rwmofo

Let me take a moment to thank you guys. Several months ago I noticed that I had a very embarrassing Karma rating. So I set out to adjust it accordingly, but couldn't have done it without your help. There are about a dozen of you who acknowledged me faithfully and repeatedly and I truly appreciate your help. So I'm sharing the credit for my negative Karma rating (finally!) with those of you who helped push me over the top.

My work is done here for tonight. I'm off to watch an episode or two of "Dexter - Season One."

It's been fun as usual. Bye for now.

I updinged your post for the lulz.

439 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:35:11pm

re: #434 BigPapa

Where are the transitional specimens?

In yur yard, eatin yur houzpetz!

440 pyite  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:35:46pm

I just have one devil's advocate kind of thought - it doesn't look like they polled about the circumstances in which violence would be justified. I'm sure everyone can think of an extreme case where they would take up arms. It would be interesting if they could poll different groups to see where they would draw the line.

441 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:35:47pm

re: #436 jamesfirecat

There's a Cracked for that...

Thanks, bookmarked.

442 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:36:12pm

This post is just as disingenous as if I had a blog post titled, "Charles Johnson Doesn't Condone Violence Against Nazi Germany."

443 harrogate  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:36:15pm

re: #354 brookly red

IF there is worse at Little League Games, that's pretty fucking sad. But no. Wait. You're wrong.

444 ClaudeMonet  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:37:52pm

re: #65 gdalpert

Sorry, I'm proud liberal, but that's the first thought that I had when I read it. Talking point or not, I think the question was poorly constructed.

Not if it got the result the pollster (or whoever was paying for the poll) wanted.

re: #61 jaunte

This was a surprising result:


That's a very loud 10%.

That depends on how many people were actually polled, the actual question, and the possibility that, as in any poll, the numbers are spun out of whole cloth.

445 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:38:01pm

re: #423 Dark_Falcon

The Kos got rid of a number of wackos, while the conservatism picked up a larger number of wackos. That's the change. I wish it were not so, but it is.

Good point. As much as a rabid partisan creep as Kos is he still has more courage than all the wingnuts and Fox put together. Alex Jones is much more welcome by wingnuts, fox news and Drudge than he ever was with mainstream lefties.

446 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:38:05pm

A wild Godwin appears!

447 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:38:39pm

re: #441 Decatur Deb

Thanks, bookmarked.

Thanks, but I was wrong slightly This is the one that deals with the coywolves...

448 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:38:41pm

re: #437 wlewisiii

Real possibility. I'm hoping Roger's talent will overcome MM's coaching incompetency but if he screws up the clock management or some such that's all she wrote.

My favorite possibility is Steelers-Packers, followed by Jets-Packers (two 6th seeds :) followed by the Bears stomping anyone else.

Well, if the Packers beat Atlanta, I still think they fall to the Bears. For a chance at the Super Bowl, against Green Bay, the Bears will bring everything they've got. And I think that the Bears defense can hold the Packers down enough for Jay Cutler and the offense to get it done.

449 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:38:51pm

re: #442 SeafoodGumbo

This post is just as disingenous as if I had a blog post titled, "Charles Johnson Doesn't Condone Violence Against Nazi Germany."

Funny, I don't recall you objecting to the polls about Muslims supporting terrorism.

450 Varek Raith  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:39:13pm

re: #446 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A wild Godwin appears!

Churchill, I choose you!

451 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:39:43pm

re: #450 Varek Raith

Churchill, I choose you!

Churchill used "V for Victory"

ITS SUPER EFFECTIVE!

452 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:39:51pm

re: #327 Dark_Falcon

I don't know why he fixated on her. It's not known yet. And given that he may well have fixated before the rhetoric started up in earnest (it started in 2009, while we know that Loughner was was paying attention to Giffords as early as 2007), its not sure if any campaign rhetoric played a role in setting him off.

Maybe he was infatuated with her in 2007, she is an attractive intelligent woman. Maybe he wasn't quite so unstable and he had this little thing for a pretty Congresswoman. It was totally harmless.
Meanwhile his mental condition worsens, while at the same time that he is getting into conspiracies. At some point of time, his dream girl becomes the target of the very people pushing a lot of this far right nonsense.

I am not saying that is how it went down, but that scenario and countless others could explain that coincidence.
Dark, take some advice from a friend, you have got to open your mind to other explanations that may not agree with your own.

Anyway, it doesn't matter whether Loughner was directly influenced by hateful and violent rhetoric. There should be none of that condoned by a political party.

Not now
Not ever

453 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:39:56pm

re: #447 jamesfirecat

Even better.

454 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:40:03pm

re: #434 BigPapa

Where are the transitional specimens?

Are none, man. This is the result of interbreeding, and these 'coywolves' are first and second generation hybrids.

455 Stanghazi  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:40:04pm

Florida 81
Tennessee 75
Final OT

whoo


(Charles, love that you responded to Shannyn)

456 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:40:40pm

re: #26 celticdragon

It's not so much the guns as the culture. There are other countries like Canada and Switzerland that have very high rates of gun ownership, but unlike us, they don't kill each other with them at anywhere near the same rate.

Too many Americans buy guns with an "I wish a motherfucker would......." kind of attitude. There is something in our culture that's the problem. I don't quite know what.

457 webevintage  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:42:35pm

re: #442 SeafoodGumbo

Oh goody....

458 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:43:00pm

re: #447 jamesfirecat

It's surprising that Cracked, which started as a second-rate version of Mad, has generated such a quality website.

459 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:43:47pm

re: #454 Dark_Falcon

Are none, man. This is the result of interbreeding, and these 'coywolves' are first and second generation hybrids.

I know, I forgot the sarc tag.

In reality all species are transitional.

460 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:44:03pm

re: #445 Killgore Trout

Most angry people at DKos are angry at President Obama. Seriously, you should have seen that place after the tax deal was announced. They couldn't even be happen about the repeal of DADT. I had to leave because the manic-progressives were so over the top.

But, there was never any talk about second amendment remedies. :p

461 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:44:27pm

re: #444 ClaudeMonet

The poll (at the link) says:

This poll was conducted by telephone on January 9-10, 2011 among 673 adults nationwide who were first interviewed by CBS News December 17-20, 2010. Phone numbers were dialed from samples of both standard land-line and cell phones. The error due to sampling for results based on the entire sample could be plus or minus four percentage points. The error for subgroups is higher. This poll release conforms to the Standards of Disclosure of the National Council on Public Polls.
462 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:45:34pm

markos, give me my kos account back

463 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:45:35pm

re: #446 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A wild Godwin appears!

It's not very effective.

Heh.

464 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:46:22pm

re: #462 SpaceJesus

markos, give me my kos account back

You have to ASK!?!?!

465 Tigger2  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:46:30pm

re: #462 SpaceJesus

markos, give me my kos account back


LOL

466 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:46:51pm

re: #448 Dark_Falcon

Well, if the Packers beat Atlanta, I still think they fall to the Bears. For a chance at the Super Bowl, against Green Bay, the Bears will bring everything they've got. And I think that the Bears defense can hold the Packers down enough for Jay Cutler and the offense to get it done.

Oh, I do not care about the SB. Not this year. I want the second meeting of the Packers & the Bears in the postseason ever, the first was December 14, 1941! I want that game! :D If it happens, we'll argue winning then, I just want it to happen so they have a chance to even that series. That's a game that'd have Papa Halas & Curley Lambeau sitting side by side in heaven cussing to the wind... ;)

467 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:46:56pm

I KNOW YOURE READING THIS

468 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:48:00pm

re: #440 pyite

I just have one devil's advocate kind of thought - it doesn't look like they polled about the circumstances in which violence would be justified. I'm sure everyone can think of an extreme case where they would take up arms. It would be interesting if they could poll different groups to see where they would draw the line.

Yes, that is a weakness of the phrasing of the question. However, please bear in mind the full context of this poll, which contained seven other questions, and was entirely about the shootings in Arizona. This question wasn't asked all on its own with no context.

Here's the PDF of the full poll:

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

469 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:48:27pm

re: #456 moderatelyradicalliberal

..snip There is something in our culture that's the problem. I don't quite know what.

Nostalgia. We're the crazy badasses that were driven out of Europe, enslaved a good chunk of one race, damn near annihilated another, tore the arm off the Mother Country, and didn't know what to do when we hit the Pacific Coast. Old habits die hard.

470 palomino  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:49:07pm

"If they bring a knife, you bring a gun." Clearly a harmless metaphor and an old political saying anyway.

If someone can make a compelling case that talk of secession, armed revolution against the Obama Admin., and 2nd Amendment remedies are all just similarly harmless metaphors, then I'll quit complaining about the hysterical rhetoric on the right.

471 Stanghazi  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:49:48pm

re: #460 moderatelyradicalliberal

Most angry people at DKos are angry at President Obama. Seriously, you should have seen that place after the tax deal was announced. They couldn't even be happen about the repeal of DADT. I had to leave because the manic-progressives were so over the top.

But, there was never any talk about second amendment remedies. :p

Nah. There wasn't.

472 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:50:13pm

re: #462 SpaceJesus

markos, give me my kos account back

How did you round up enough cash to convince him to make that mistake?

473 jaunte  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:50:29pm

Scientific American:
A Key Series of Events Helped Giffords Survive a Gunshot Wound to the Head

474 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:50:35pm

re: #466 wlewisiii

Oh, I do not care about the SB. Not this year. I want the second meeting of the Packers & the Bears in the postseason ever, the first was December 14, 1941! I want that game! :D If it happens, we'll argue winning then, I just want it to happen so they have a chance to even that series. That's a game that'd have Papa Halas & Curley Lambeau sitting side by side in heaven cussing to the wind... ;)

Oh, I'd love that game too. Everyone along Lake Michigan from Green Bay south through Milwaukee to Chicago then down and across to Valparaiso, Indiana would love to see that game. Instant Classic.

475 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:51:47pm

re: #472 Reginald Perrin


different times man. oh well.

476 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:51:58pm

re: #467 SpaceJesus

I KNOW YOURE READING THIS

I didn't.

477 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:53:01pm

re: #268 rwmofo

I'll go out on a limb and speculate - much like what we've heard from ABC/CBS/NBC/MSNBC/NY Times, etc.

1) The young man who shot all those people appears to be mentally ill.

2) At this point he hasn't declared that Sarah Palin drove him over the edge, but once Geraldo or Katie Couric or whomever eventually gets the interview, what are the odds they'll ask him if he was influenced by the right?

I think that very few doubt that he is highly unstable.

But you seem to be ducking the question.

How do you know that someone who ranted about the gold standard, the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, and who wrote anti-government rants wasn't influenced by anit-government rhetoric that focuses on the gold standard and the dangers of a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT?

Look - I don't know that rightwing rhetoric was an influence for this guy, but it seems like a reasonable possibility. Yet, you seem to have ruled that possibility out. By what insight to you reach that conclusion?

478 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:53:19pm

re: #470 palomino

Ans it's not like any of Obama's supporters ever showed up anywhere with any visible firearms either.

479 palomino  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:53:49pm

re: #460 moderatelyradicalliberal

Most angry people at DKos are angry at President Obama. Seriously, you should have seen that place after the tax deal was announced. They couldn't even be happen about the repeal of DADT. I had to leave because the manic-progressives were so over the top.

But, there was never any talk about second amendment remedies. :p


Exactly. I guess the left needs true believers, but the most liberal Dems have been totally unrealistic. You can't govern a country this large and diverse as if the whole thing were Boston or NYC.

480 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:54:52pm

re: #473 jaunte

That she is alive, responsive, and breathing on her own are each one,miracles.

481 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:55:27pm

re: #469 Decatur Deb

Yeah. And quite frankly we love outlaws. The Old West, the Mafia, Gangsta Rap, etc. What we claim to abhor we also love and never stop glorifying.

482 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:55:35pm

re: #479 palomino

Exactly. I guess the left needs true believers, but the most liberal Dems have been totally unrealistic. You can't govern a country this large and diverse as if the whole thing were Boston or NYC.

Now if only the most Conservative Republicans would stop trying to govern America as if it was Arizona or Alabama...

483 palomino  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:55:55pm

re: #477 Talking Point Detective

I think that very few doubt that he is highly unstable.

But you seem to be ducking the question.

How do you know that someone who ranted about the gold standard, the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, and who wrote anti-government rants wasn't influenced by anit-government rhetoric that focuses on the gold standard and the dangers of a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT?

Look - I don't know that rightwing rhetoric was an influence for this guy, but it seems like a reasonable possibility. Yet, you seem to have ruled that possibility out. By what insight to you reach that conclusion?

He liked liberal books like Mein Kampf.
/////

484 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:57:05pm

re: #480 Floral Giraffe

That she is alive, responsive, and breathing on her own are each one,miracles.

And I hope to see the day she sits down with her colleague, Rep. West, and chats about "Keeping them afraid to leave home".

485 freetoken  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:57:22pm

Today I was out and about in one of my very rare forays in an automobile (taking care of business that I can't on foot) around town, and while on the road I turned on the radio to take the temperature, so to speak.

The afternoon talkers were frothing. Rodger Hedgecock of course doing his uber-Limbaugh-esque hyperventilating about how the left has spun the assassinations, Savage was incoherent as usual, John and Ken (KFI) were off railing against our new governor for proposing extending an expiring tax in order to balance the budget (which has to be balanced), and a local talker was beating up on Sheriff Dupnick.

What a mess.

I wonder how we, as a society, got into this situation, where AM Radio == hate radio. I know that the shock-jocks of a couple of decades ago did what they did to push the FCC envelope and through their novelty attract listeners. Yet today we have people who claim to want to be taken seriously spouting nothing but crafted dog-whistles, designed to stir up animosity. That's a long ways from the shock-jocks trying to get "f*ck" on the air, or broadcasting a woman having an orgasm.

Anyway, fortunately I carry with me some custom made CDs of music that quickly take the place of AM radio.

486 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:58:02pm

re: #484 Decatur Deb

Shouldn't he be in a military prison?

487 palomino  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:59:27pm

re: #478 moderatelyradicalliberal

Ans it's not like any of Obama's supporters ever showed up anywhere with any visible firearms either.

I certainly don't remember that. But then Obama's campaign was inclusive and built on a positive message of hope and change (as corny as that might sound now).

The TP movement is quite the opposite--built on cultural resentment, monochromatic, filled with blind anger.

488 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:59:35pm

re: #483 palomino

Like any good liberal, my copy is in the original German.

/////

489 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 8:59:58pm

re: #486 moderatelyradicalliberal

Shouldn't he be in a military prison?

Honorably discharged, elected, sworn-in. Screw him.

490 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:00:15pm

re: #486 moderatelyradicalliberal

Shouldn't he be in a military prison?

Why is that?

491 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:00:57pm

re: #485 freetoken

It's all just incoherent ranting. Enough to make your brain explode. Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh,heck, even Dennis Praegar, and Hugh Hewitt, is kind of a gimmee. Best to listen to classical music, or hard rock for my taste.

492 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:01:04pm

So long everybody I'm headed off for bed, if I'm lucky this snow we're getting/expected to get will be thick enough that I won't have work tomorrow but you know the old saying, live every day as if it is your last, but plan as if it isn't....

493 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:01:20pm

re: #487 palomino

When you put it that way it sounds like the Eloi and the Morlocks.

The TPers are gonna eat me!!!!!!!

494 ClaudeMonet  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:01:28pm

re: #242 Varek Raith

I want to walk around with a multi megaton bomb in a Red Ryder wagon.
Yeah!

Gee, all I wanted was a Red Ryder BB gun for Christmas.

re: #285 rwmofo

Did Manson get an interview? Yes. Yes he did.

How many interviews has Hinckley been allowed to give in the last 29-plus years?

re: #315 reine.de.tout

Hm.
My twitter screen just went blank, and continues to be blank when I refresh.
Anyone else having a problem with twitter?

Nope. That's probably because I don't "twit".

495 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:02:47pm

re: #492 jamesfirecat

So long everybody I'm headed off for bed, if I'm lucky this snow we're getting/expected to get will be thick enough that I won't have work tomorrow but you know the old saying, live every day as if it is your last, but plan as if it isn't...

Thought you were still in school. Did you hit the job market?

496 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:02:57pm

re: #490 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I thought he was caught up in some of the Abu Ghraib stuff. I could be confusing him. I'll have to google it.

497 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:02:59pm

re: #494 ClaudeMonet

Gee, all I wanted was a Red Ryder BB gun for Christmas.

You'll shoot your eye out.

re: #315 reine.de.tout

Nope. That's probably because I don't "twit".

neither do I really, mostly "retweet", and watch. Very interesting at times.

498 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:03:29pm

On Topic:

Law passed to ban picketing at Tucson funerals Westboro Baptist Church says 'God sent the shooter to deal with idolatrous America'

PHOENIX — Arizona legislators quickly approved emergency legislation Tuesday to head off picketing by a Topeka, Kan., church near the funeral service for a 9-year-old girl who was killed in the Tucson shootings.

Unanimous votes by the House and Senate sent the bill to Gov. Jan Brewer, who signed it Tuesday night. It took effect immediately.

Without specifically mentioning the Tucson shooting, the law prohibits protests at or near funeral sites.

Dozens of lawmakers co-sponsored the bill, and legislative action was completed within 90 minutes. The Senate's committee hearing took just three minutes.

The Westboro Baptist Church said Monday it plans to picket Thursday's funeral for Christina Taylor Green because "God sent the shooter to deal with idolatrous America." The fundamentalist church has picketed many military funerals to draw attention to its view that the deaths are God's punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality.

Lawmakers denounced the church's plan to picket a child's funeral.

SNIP

Numerous states have passed laws restricting protests at funerals after members of the Westboro church began protesting at the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Arizona legislation is modeled on an Ohio law that was upheld by the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, Sinema said.

The four-paragraph Arizona bill makes it a misdemeanor punishable by up to six months in jail to picket or conduct other protest activities within 300 feet of a funeral or burial service — about the length of a football field. The prohibition applies from one hour before the event to one hour after.

499 palomino  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:04:01pm

re: #493 moderatelyradicalliberal

When you put it that way it sounds like the Eloi and the Morlocks.

The TPers are gonna eat me!!!

If only we had a time machine to get out of this mess. Or better yet transport the tea partiers to their beloved 1950s, or is that 1850s?

500 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:04:22pm

re: #497 reine.de.tout


Format FAIL. Correct version:


re: #494 ClaudeMonet

Gee, all I wanted was a Red Ryder BB gun for Christmas.

You'll shoot your eye out.

501 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:04:28pm

re: #496 moderatelyradicalliberal

I thought he was caught up in some of the Abu Ghraib stuff. I could be confusing him. I'll have to google it.

No. He was charged with abusing a prisoner (mock execution). He was allowed to resign and keep his pension.

502 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:04:31pm

re: #495 Decatur Deb

Thought you were still in school. Did you hit the job market?

I graduated back last May (2010) and got a job at the end of August!

503 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:04:44pm

re: #498 Dark_Falcon

If they show up at that little girl's funeral they need their asses whipped.

504 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:06:30pm

re: #502 jamesfirecat

Congrats again, then.

505 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:07:01pm

re: #499 palomino

Actually, I think sending them into the future would be a better punishment. Let them see that the America they are trying to prevent happened anyway. I think whenever we have our first Latino President born to Mexican migrant workers would be about the right time. ;)

506 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:07:09pm

re: #467 SpaceJesus

I KNOW YOURE READING THIS

While his man crush is on sabbatical, trust me, you are occupying a large part of that mostly empty skull.

507 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:08:00pm

re: #502 jamesfirecat

Congrats. I just graduated too and I'm job hunting.

508 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:08:14pm

re: #486 moderatelyradicalliberal

Shouldn't he be in a military prison?

He was never convicted. Not enough valid evidence to try him.

509 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:08:40pm

re: #508 Dark_Falcon

Thanks.

510 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:09:32pm

re: #498 Dark_Falcon

On Topic:

Law passed to ban picketing at Tucson funerals Westboro Baptist Church says 'God sent the shooter to deal with idolatrous America'

SNIP

Bad law for one reason- it gives them more publicity which is what this is all about. Just put a silent wall of state troopers up 1000 yards out and don't let them closer. Have no reporters file about it. That would hurt them more than anything. They will consider this law a win. Westboro Bible Satanists... fuck them but do it so they can't get what they want.

511 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:09:43pm

re: #485 freetoken

Today I was out and about in one of my very rare forays in an automobile (taking care of business that I can't on foot) around town, and while on the road I turned on the radio to take the temperature, so to speak.

The afternoon talkers were frothing. Rodger Hedgecock of course doing his uber-Limbaugh-esque hyperventilating about how the left has spun the assassinations, Savage was incoherent as usual, John and Ken (KFI) were off railing against our new governor for proposing extending an expiring tax in order to balance the budget (which has to be balanced), and a local talker was beating up on Sheriff Dupnick.

What a mess.

I wonder how we, as a society, got into this situation, where AM Radio == hate radio. I know that the shock-jocks of a couple of decades ago did what they did to push the FCC envelope and through their novelty attract listeners. Yet today we have people who claim to want to be taken seriously spouting nothing but crafted dog-whistles, designed to stir up animosity. That's a long ways from the shock-jocks trying to get "f*ck" on the air, or broadcasting a woman having an orgasm.

Anyway, fortunately I carry with me some custom made CDs of music that quickly take the place of AM radio.


The antidote for bad talk radio is Phil Hendrie: [Link: www.philhendrieshow.com...]

who's basically satirizing the very phenomenon, and doing it so well all the shows he satirizes...are infatuated with him :D

512 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:12:38pm

re: #506 Reginald Perrin

probably. it's going on about 6 years now since ive even been there

513 palomino  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:12:54pm

re: #505 moderatelyradicalliberal

Actually, I think sending them into the future would be a better punishment. Let them see that the America they are trying to prevent happened anyway. I think whenever we have our first Latino President born to Mexican migrant workers would be about the right time. ;)

Good point. Heads would explode when it became painfully clear that America is no longer the white Christian nation they imagine.

The demographic changes of the next few decades will be huge.

514 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:13:17pm

It was just Jan 11, 11:11 in CST. 'Nite all.

515 freetoken  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:13:59pm

re: #511 WindUpBird

Phil's been at it a very long time. And, while he is humorous (most of the time), I can't see where he has shifted the drift of talk radio one iota.

516 BongCrodny  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:14:35pm

re: #510 wlewisiii

Bad law for one reason- it gives them more publicity which is what this is all about. Just put a silent wall of state troopers up 1000 yards out and don't let them closer. Have no reporters file about it. That would hurt them more than anything. They will consider this law a win. Westboro Bible Satanists... fuck them but do it so they can't get what they want.


This might be encroaching on "kumbayah" territory here, but I'd prefer a wall of citizen counter-protestors.

The Wesboros don't seem to be violent, just assholes.

517 McSpiff  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:17:07pm

re: #516 BongCrodny

This might be encroaching on "kumbayah" territory here, but I'd prefer a wall of citizen counter-protestors.

The Wesboros don't seem to be violent, just assholes.

I plug these fine citizens every chance I get.

518 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:17:14pm

Good night all.

519 ClaudeMonet  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:17:40pm

re: #373 KingKenrod

Well, the right wing has been trying to deflect this on to the left wing since Saturday with the slimmest of evidence - Communist Manifesto, anyone? There's a post up at hotair right now suggesting it was rock music that pushed him over the edge...

Could it be...Satan?

re: #485 freetoken

Today I was out and about in one of my very rare forays in an automobile (taking care of business that I can't on foot) around town, and while on the road I turned on the radio to take the temperature, so to speak.

The afternoon talkers were frothing. Rodger Hedgecock of course doing his uber-Limbaugh-esque hyperventilating about how the left has spun the assassinations, Savage was incoherent as usual, John and Ken (KFI) were off railing against our new governor for proposing extending an expiring tax in order to balance the budget (which has to be balanced), and a local talker was beating up on Sheriff Dupnick.

What a mess.

I wonder how we, as a society, got into this situation, where AM Radio == hate radio. I know that the shock-jocks of a couple of decades ago did what they did to push the FCC envelope and through their novelty attract listeners. Yet today we have people who claim to want to be taken seriously spouting nothing but crafted dog-whistles, designed to stir up animosity. That's a long ways from the shock-jocks trying to get "f*ck" on the air, or broadcasting a woman having an orgasm.

Anyway, fortunately I carry with me some custom made CDs of music that quickly take the place of AM radio.

I love having Sirius in the new car. The only time I go to AM radio is for the hourly news. When I get bored with Sirius, I go to the CDs.

520 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:19:13pm

re: #484 Decatur Deb

And I hope to see the day she sits down with her colleague, Rep. West, and chats about "Keeping them afraid to leave home".

Dare I ask?

521 ClaudeMonet  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:23:27pm

re: #510 wlewisiii

Bad law for one reason- it gives them more publicity which is what this is all about. Just put a silent wall of state troopers up 1000 yards out and don't let them closer. Have no reporters file about it. That would hurt them more than anything. They will consider this law a win. Westboro Bible Satanists... fuck them but do it so they can't get what they want.

That's a good idea, but I have a simpler solution--Have the Highway Patrol stop their vans and buses out in the desert and call for a "safety check" that will conveniently last until just after the funeral. We wouldn't want to endanger the WBC little kids by having them ride in unsafe vehicles, would we?

522 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:24:49pm

re: #512 SpaceJesus

probably. it's going on about 6 years now since ive even been there

Keep up the good work, SJ.

523 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:25:57pm

re: #513 palomino

Good point. Heads would explode when it became painfully clear that America is no longer the white Christian nation they imagine.

The demographic changes of the next few decades will be huge.

Well, the Latino presence will probably keep the "Christian" part going.

Now, when we do get this Latino president, I hope it's someone less slimy than Matt Santos.

524 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:30:04pm

re: #523 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, the Latino presence will probably keep the "Christian" part going.

Now, when we do get this Latino president, I hope it's someone less slimy than Matt Santos.


Why? Lots of people would like it is Bartlet could be President "again" (including Martin Sheen)!/

525 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:30:50pm

Sorry to interrupt, but there's a possible coup going on in Tunisia according to some Muslims in the Twitterverse.

If you're on Twitter, try #coup and #Tunisia.

Going back out now.

526 sattv4u2  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:31:02pm

re: #524 sattv4u2

Why? Lots of people would like it is IF Bartlet could be President "again" (including Martin Sheen)!/

pimf (( I HATE it when I blow the punchline!))

527 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:31:21pm

re: #520 SanFranciscoZionist

Dare I ask?

A quote attributed to him. This late I find it only in a follower's crazed rant and second hand descriptions.

[Link: www.postonpolitics.com...]

528 freetoken  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:31:52pm

Farther off topic, I've been reading the postings over at Biologos for the past couple of months, and responded to a few.

I've been hoping to find a good anti-dote to give creationists, so to speak. In other words, links to works that wouldn't be automatically rejected by creationists, in the hope that the tough shell of mental protection can be cracked.

Sadly, the latest post over there, The BioLogos Foundation’s Theology of Celebration II Workshop, convinces me that in the long haul there probably won't be an intellectually and scientifically coherent but still self-professed "Christian" answer to the copious ravings of the Fundamentalists (which continue to make up a larger share of the US self-professed Christians, as more modernist thinkers become comfortable with leaving labelled religious identifications.)

529 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:31:59pm

Antonio Villaraigosa is not my favorite politician, but he seems to work hard, and be pretty effective.

530 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:32:07pm

'Nite, all fur reel.

531 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:32:42pm

re: #525 CuriousLurker

I saw that a little while ago - latest word is that there's no coup.

532 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:33:50pm

re: #531 Charles

I saw that a little while ago - latest word is that there's no coup.

A few riots though.

533 freetoken  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:34:04pm

There's been a lot of rioting around some of the countries in that area, including Algeria. Food prices, and some opportunists, have been destabilizing the area.

534 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:34:26pm

re: #524 sattv4u2

Why? Lots of people would like it is Bartlet could be President "again" (including Martin Sheen)!/

I would love it if Bartlet could be president again. Santos never appealed to me. Vinick was the stronger candidate.

535 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:34:50pm

re: #525 CuriousLurker

Sorry to interrupt, but there's a possible coup going on in Tunisia according to some Muslims in the Twitterverse.

If you're on Twitter, try #coup and #Tunisia.

Going back out now.

This is all I need!

//crap

536 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:35:39pm

re: #517 McSpiff

I plug these fine citizens every chance I get.

Those guys are awesome. I tip my metaphorical hat to them.

537 freetoken  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:36:18pm

Here's a link to a site which follows blogs about human rights. Link goes to the Tunisia section:

[Link: globalvoicesonline.org...]

538 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:37:02pm

re: #528 freetoken

WTF is scientism? Is it what I think it is?

If it is, that is an effective construct to bring science to the same plane as faith.

539 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:37:33pm

Any wingnut blogs writing about this poll yet?

540 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:38:00pm

re: #531 Charles

I saw that a little while ago - latest word is that there's no coup.

Yeah, I should have bolded the "possible" part in my comment. It's so hard to tell what's real or not on Twitter—conflicting reports, as usual. It's around 6:30am there now, so I'm curious to see what's going to happen.

541 Tigger2005  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:38:22pm

So I did a long post on Facebook about how sick I was of violent, irrational right-wing rhetoric and how I was done with the Republican Party until they found the guts to put a stop to it. Here's my older brother's reply. Mind you, this guy would strike you as (and for the most part, he is) very sane and laid back. He's definitely no Creationist or anything like that, I'm pretty sure he doesn't have any real issue with legal abortion, etc. ...

There is so much wrong with your rant, I dont have the time. No self reflection is due because the right or Tea Party movement had nothing to do with this. The guy was a nut job pure and simple. If his political views had anything to do with it, which they don't, they were left of center. So, right wingers are also responsible for left wing crazies? How does that work? Palin and the Conservative talkers you mention are no more responsible for this guy than Ed Schultz, Keith Olberrmann or Rachel Maddow. Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, JFK and RFK were all assasinated before the advent of the internet and conservative talk radio. If you cant debate the issues exploit and spin every crisis. Or as Rahm Emanuel famously said, Never let a good crisis go to waste.

542 freetoken  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:39:19pm

re: #538 BigPapa

WTF is scientism? Is it what I think it is?

I'm afraid in this case it's just a boogeyman, something which (I believe) the Biologos folk are hoping will catch the eye of the fundamentalists, so the fundamentalists will accept the Biologos folk as one of the their own.

543 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:39:36pm

re: #541 Tigger2005

He's just spewing talking points. He's getting this crap from somewhere.

544 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:39:49pm

re: #525 CuriousLurker

Dear God, this could be really bad. Tunisia is right next to Algeria, a nation with a large presence of radical Islamists.

545 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:40:10pm

re: #528 freetoken

I read that, and all I could think is... scientism??? Do they mean strict materialism?

546 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:40:56pm

re: #505 moderatelyradicalliberal

I think whenever we have our first Latino President born to Mexican migrant workers would be about the right time. ;)

When that happens, expect many heads to asplode. I mean, it's bad enough to some folks that a black man with an African name got elected POTUS. Imagine what they'll do when a Mexican gets elected, especially if she ends up being female. They won't know what to do with themselves.

547 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:41:34pm

Pasta With Mussels once cooked I keep the mussels and sauce in separate containers. For leftovers, reheat the sauce, boil pasta, toss in mussels. Nice.

548 blueraven  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:41:36pm

re: #520 SanFranciscoZionist

Dare I ask?

Allen West tells Tea Partiers: "make the fellow scared to come out of his house"

549 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:41:45pm

re: #544 ProLifeLiberal

Dear God, this could be really bad. Tunisia is right next to Algeria, a nation with a large presence of radical Islamists.

Yeah, I'm getting ready to go see if I can figure out who/what the heck #sidibouzid is. Sounds like someone's name.

550 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:43:09pm

re: #548 blueraven

Allen West tells Tea Partiers: "make the fellow scared to come out of his house"

Yep. No climate of violence in the Tea Party. None whatsoever. /

551 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:43:24pm

re: #542 freetoken

I'm afraid in this case it's just a boogeyman, something which (I believe) the Biologos folk are hoping will catch the eye of the fundamentalists, so the fundamentalists will accept the Biologos folk as one of the their own.

It is exactly what I thought it was:

We also affirm the value of science, which eloquently describes the glory of God’s creation. We stand with a long tradition of Christians for whom faith and science are mutually hospitable, and we see no necessary conflict between the Bible and the findings of science. We reject, however, the unspoken philosophical presuppositions of scientism, the belief that science is the sole source of all knowledge.

In recent years voices have emerged who seek to undermine religious faith as intellectually disreputable, in part because of its alleged dissonance with science. Some go further, characterizing religion as a “mind virus” or a cultural evil. While many of their ideas are not new, these voices are often identified as the New Atheists, and scientism undergirds their thinking.

Sounds like a New Bad-ism to get the Ooga Boogah going.

552 freetoken  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:43:33pm

re: #545 Fozzie Bear

I read that, and all I could think is... scientism??? Do they mean strict materialism?

They keep picking on Dawkins and Sam Harris. IMO the problem that must be addressed doesn't stem from Dawkins (who is actually kindly in how he approaches religious people) or Harris (who is more aggressive).

The problem with a non-trivial segment of American society is that it rejects the modern world in anything other than the most banal comforts (e.g., hot water on tap.)

553 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:44:31pm

re: #549 CuriousLurker

Yeah, I'm getting ready to go see if I can figure out who/what the heck #sidibouzid is. Sounds like someone's name.

Found it.

On December 18, 2010, clashes occurred in Sidi Bou Zid between residents and the police following the public self-immolation of an unemployed university graduate, Mohamed Bouazizi. Bouazizi worked as a street vendor and was protesting the authorities' seizure of his goods. He died of his injuries on January 4, 2011.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

554 Lidane  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:44:39pm

re: #548 blueraven

Allen West tells Tea Partiers: "make the fellow scared to come out of his house"

Pfft. That's just symbolism. No reasonable person would interpret that to mean that they want to literally terrorize the man so he never goes out in public again.

Why are you politicizing my right to intimidate people? What are you, some kinda commie librul traitor?

/wingnut

555 freetoken  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:46:46pm

re: #553 CuriousLurker

The site I linked earlier mentions the results of Bou Zid's death:

[Link: globalvoicesonline.org...]

556 krypto  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:48:22pm

re: #468 Charles

Yes, that is a weakness of the phrasing of the question. However, please bear in mind the full context of this poll, which contained seven other questions, and was entirely about the shootings in Arizona. This question wasn't asked all on its own with no context.

Here's the PDF of the full poll:

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Anyone who occasionally looks at the comments being posted on Fox News is pretty well aware of the real situation in context. Under normal conditions, the mixture of posts includes a steady flow of comments from Fox's right wingers flaunting the idea of second amendment remedies, violent revolution, refreshing "the tree of liberty" and so on.

Right now on Fox there is a massive effort by Fox's regulars to join in the attack on Sheriff Dupnik.

A new method has also caught on among the Fox followers to deal with any criticism about their own violent rhetoric or the rhetoric of their role models, which is to "flag" large numbers of posts that blame the right for the extreme rhetoric as "inappropriate content" so that Fox quickly removes them and keeps them from being read. Sometimes posts are genuinely over the line, but Fox regulars during the last few days have been doing this in response even to posts that merely show mild annoyance with Rush Limbaugh or Sarah Palin, or merely object to the vigilante censorship, while posts that much greater rage against "the liberals" or "democrats" are untouched. If you check there, even now, you'll easily find boards on which one post after another has been removed as inappropriate, with the replies that remain making it clear that the posts had said something "liberal."

557 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:48:28pm

re: #555 freetoken

The site I linked earlier mentions the results of Bou Zid's death:

[Link: globalvoicesonline.org...]

Thanks, I hadn't seen that.

558 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:48:36pm

re: #541 Tigger2005

Right Wing Woo pure and simple. Ask him if the Loughner's name was 'Hassan' would he have the same opinion of the shooter just being crazy.

The ironic thing is his first sentence shows projection in his following sentences.

559 palomino  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:51:09pm

re: #523 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, the Latino presence will probably keep the "Christian" part going.

Now, when we do get this Latino president, I hope it's someone less slimy than Matt Santos.

Marco Rubio. After all, he is essentially the gop's entire outreach program to Hispanics.

560 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:51:56pm

re: #549 CuriousLurker

Yeah, I'm getting ready to go see if I can figure out who/what the heck #sidibouzid is. Sounds like someone's name.

Sidi Bou Zid is a place - and it's an important place in American history. February 19–25, 1943 was the duration of the Battle of Kasserine Pass which started at Sidi Bou Zid. It was Rommel's last victory in North Africa. After the total thumping of the US 1st Armored Division with some exceptions - 13th Armor fought honorably (and I am proud to have served in that regiment much later) - the US came in and clean house, reorganized, gave command to Patton and basically created the Army that would later fight to victory in north-west Europe.

I doubt what you're posting about has anything to do with that, however...

561 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:52:57pm

Hey all!

Have we been thru the Anti-Government Violence meme?

What are we talking about now? (If I may include myself, ahem)

How is everyone this evening?

It's snowing in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland, BTW. Just enough to make driving a PITA.

562 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:54:25pm

re: #547 Killgore Trout

Pasta With Mussels once cooked I keep the mussels and sauce in separate containers. For leftovers, reheat the sauce, boil pasta, toss in mussels. Nice.

Lucky dog being close to easy access for mussels in the cool green NW. Jealous!

563 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:54:28pm

re: #512 SpaceJesus

probably. it's going on about 6 years now since ive even been there

That was back in the past decade, before they put up the iron curtain. Back when you went on a mission from Dog. Now it's North Korea and they have started the purges. A lot of the old crowd has started to join factions...many have been disappeared.
It wouldn't take much to send them over the edge, you're the perfect man for the job.

564 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:58:49pm

re: #562 BigPapa

Lucky dog being close to easy access for mussels in the cool green NW. Jealous!

I recently found some places that sell fresh mussels but I've been using frozen ones for ages. They handle freezing surprisingly well. Same with squid.

565 Stephen T.  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:59:51pm

re: #122 sattv4u2

To where? Name me someplace with 0 shootings

For all the gun laws DC has, you think it's safe there?

Antarctica, been there once. Would love to go back.

566 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 9:59:56pm

re: #560 wlewisiii

Sidi Bou Zid is a place - and it's an important place in American history. February 19–25, 1943 was the duration of the Battle of Kasserine Pass which started at Sidi Bou Zid. It was Rommel's last victory in North Africa. After the total thumping of the US 1st Armored Division with some exceptions - 13th Armor fought honorably (and I am proud to have served in that regiment much later) - the US came in and clean house, reorganized, gave command to Patton and basically created the Army that would later fight to victory in north-west Europe.

I doubt what you're posting about has anything to do with that, however...

Thanks. Yes, that was mentioned on the Wiki page also (see my #553).

Ugh, the ME sooo doesn't need another mess.

567 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:00:04pm

re: #564 Killgore Trout

I recently found some places that sell fresh mussels but I've been using frozen ones for ages. They handle freezing surprisingly well. Same with squid.

ARe they "food grade" mussels?

568 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:01:26pm

Good night all. It's midnight here in CST so this is a good time to slip off into the night.

569 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:01:38pm

re: #565 Scarecrow237

Antarctica, been there once. Would love to go back.

I never understood the concept of gun-free zones--as only law-abiding citizens would follow such a rule.

It seems that anytime a crazy want's to make a statement, he goes to a gun-free zone --schools mostly. Why go where someone might interrupt your diatribe?

570 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:02:42pm

re: #565 Scarecrow237

Antarctica, been there once. Would love to go back.

Sure, completely disregard Outpost 31

571 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:03:39pm

re: #566 CuriousLurker

Especially one so close to an already viciously racist Europe. What happens to Muslims in Europe if an Islamist state pops up in Tunisia? I'm thinking bad things. That's not even counting the much higher chances of Terroist attacks in SouthWestern Europe.

572 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:03:59pm

re: #563 Reginald Perrin

haha, maybe ill go back after a few more drinks tonight

573 Kruk  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:07:30pm

re: #456 moderatelyradicalliberal

It's not so much the guns as the culture. There are other countries like Canada and Switzerland that have very high rates of gun ownership, but unlike us, they don't kill each other with them at anywhere near the same rate.

Too many Americans buy guns with an "I wish a motherfucker would..." kind of attitude. There is something in our culture that's the problem. I don't quite know what.

I saw very interesting article online on this, and I wish I could find it again. It talked about how both the US and Canada took a lot of pride from their frontier history. Yet the symbol of Canada's frontier past was the Mountie (the peacekeeper and law enforcer) while that in the US was the cowboy (the lone gunslinger).

574 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:09:39pm

re: #548 blueraven

Allen West tells Tea Partiers: "make the fellow scared to come out of his house"

You can't really call that anything but threatening. Now I will say that Allen West was calling for his supporters to deluge his Ron Klein with phone calls and protests instead of actually attacking him, but even so such words are over the line. They are liable to lead someone to make threats or break the law.

Allen West is far too bellicose for his own good. A wise foe would find a way to use that agression to trap him.

575 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:10:37pm

re: #573 Kruk

Is it bad of me to love the mounties then? I remember they assisted us during Katrina, which is enough reason for me to think they are awesome (like Canada generally).

576 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:11:46pm

re: #575 ProLifeLiberal

Is it bad of me to love the mounties then? I remember they assisted us during Katrina, which is enough reason for me to think they are awesome (like Canada generally).

The Mounties are great.

And we do have that whole image of the Western sheriff, as well.

577 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:14:28pm

re: #576 SanFranciscoZionist

Just a little silliness...

Youtube Video
578 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:14:45pm

I found this interesting map of Canadian Firearm Ownership. I have no idea how to find a similar one for the US.

579 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:17:09pm

re: #572 SpaceJesus

haha, maybe ill go back after a few more drinks tonight

No, you are much better than that, your work at Wiki gave you away.
You never have to go them them, they are wirless. Use the right bait and you can play them until your hearts content. Once they're hooked, real them in.

They are desperate for a visit, why give them what they want?

Sit back and enjoy, this conversation is painful for them to read.

580 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:17:25pm

re: #578 ggt

I found this interesting map of Canadian Firearm Ownership. I have no idea how to find a similar one for the US.

Seems the more sparsely poplated regions have higher gun ownership rates, which makes sense in the wilderness.

581 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:17:33pm

re: #577 Floral Giraffe

I was actually thinking of this:

Youtube Video
582 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:19:53pm

re: #580 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Seems the more sparsely poplated regions have higher gun ownership rates, which makes sense in the wilderness.

Kinda creepy that all the guns have to be registered. There is some post-poned regulation on marking of firearms.

583 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:20:54pm

re: #571 ProLifeLiberal

Especially one so close to an already viciously racist Europe. What happens to Muslims in Europe if an Islamist state pops up in Tunisia? I'm thinking bad things. That's not even counting the much higher chances of Terroist attacks in SouthWestern Europe.

France seems to be *yawning* at the moment, if this article is correct (you'll need to run it through Google Translate.

584 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:21:54pm

re: #581 ggt

LOL!
Canadians, and Lumberjacks are awesome. Monty Python ROCKS!
I'm old but this is seriously funny.

585 ProMayaLiberal  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:22:00pm

re: #574 Dark_Falcon

The next election will probably have West's opponent doing that. Also, it looks like the Republicans are going to go nuts for the next 2 years, with one of the biggest examples being the "hearings" the great hypocrite Peter King is going to do. By the way, from now on I'll be referring to him with more blunt of monikers.

586 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:26:12pm

Cooler than you might think....
Croissants

Youtube Video
587 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:26:19pm

re: #582 ggt

Kinda creepy that all the guns have to be registered. There is some post-poned regulation on marking of firearms.

I'm fairly sure all guns in the US need to be registered as well.

588 Kragar  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:26:58pm

re: #586 Killgore Trout

Cooler than you might think...
Croissants

[Video]

Freedom Crescents.

589 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:26:58pm

Old, Old, Old. My parents loved these guys.

590 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:29:11pm

re: #587 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm fairly sure all guns in the US need to be registered as well.

No, I don't think so.

591 Meitantei  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:29:11pm

I don't know if I'm alone, but I feel like this was a bad question.

Because I would argue that there can be moments when the people have the right to take up arms against the government. It is a general principle that if the government really has become completely oppressive, the people have the right to rebel. That's our Revolution.

Now, do I think violent action against this government is justified? Hell no. I doubt America will see a government in at least 50 years where such a drastic scenario would be needed, and the Tea Party has massively abused that idea of revolt for their political gain. But just because the Tea Party is filled with morons, does not mean the scenario of a violent overthrow could not exist someday in the distant future.

So I would say "yes", even though obviously what the Tea Party is doing is hideous.

592 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:31:34pm

re: #591 Meitantei

I don't know if I'm alone, but I feel like this was a bad question.

Because I would argue that there can be moments when the people have the right to take up arms against the government. It is a general principle that if the government really has become completely oppressive, the people have the right to rebel. That's our Revolution.

I think you are right about it being a bad question. I also think that Republicans are more likely to answer based on your above paragraph--explaining the higher number of "yes" responses.

If "anti-government" violence had be clearly defined, the poll might have been more accurate.

593 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:32:57pm

re: #591 Meitantei

If you would have taken the common courtesy to actually read the other comments, you'd know that it has already been debated and your sides argument lost.
Your concern, however, has been duly noted.

594 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:34:59pm

re: #592 ggt

I think you are right about it being a bad question. I also think that Republicans are more likely to answer based on your above paragraph--explaining the higher number of "yes" responses.

If "anti-government" violence had be clearly defined, the poll might have been more accurate.

First, I don't know how I managed to get the post to look like that.

Second, I think there is a problem with the number of high Republican "yes" responses, as there are many who now identify themselves as Republican who think that we are at or near a point where the government is genuinely oppressive. The blame anyone who doesn't look, or think like them.

I call them Whacko.

595 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:37:17pm

re: #593 Reginald Perrin

If you would have taken the common courtesy to actually read the other comments, you'd know that it has already been debated and your sides argument lost.
Your concern, however, has been duly noted.

common courtesy? Please Reggie, the thread is over 500 posts. Common Courtesy would be to point the responder to specific posts or at least a general range of numbers he could start reading.

Some of us who recently logged on might want to discuss it too. IF you are bored, skip the posts or start a new topic.

596 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:37:30pm

re: #593 Reginald Perrin

Courtesy, and respect, are not common these days.
Not anything like they used be.
They are lost skills, Sir.

597 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:38:25pm

...

598 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:40:07pm

re: #595 ggt

he is an concern troll.....check out his history

599 Kronocide  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:41:16pm

I'm just asking a bad question.

600 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:43:15pm

G'night all.
Sleep tight.
Especially those of you who don't sleep well.
*smooch*

601 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:44:10pm

re: #598 Reginald Perrin

he is an concern troll...check out his history

He has positive karma and, I thought, a reasonable and polite post. Is there some rule I'm not aware of that says I can't respond to posts from people you call trolls, but whom have not been banned by Charles?

I prefer to learn about people from my own interaction with them. You may be proven right in the end, and if so, I'll tell you.

602 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:44:39pm

Well, sleep is about to stage a coup on my consciousness, so I'm out till tomorrow.

G'nite, all.

603 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:44:43pm

re: #597 Dark_Falcon

Don't know what happened to this post. Not worth putting it back together, either. Suffice it to say it said that Allen West can be beaten by someone who can clearly articulate why West's violent rhetoric is wrong and who won't be intimidated. That was the point I wanted to make.

604 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:45:18pm

re: #600 Floral Giraffe

G'night all.
Sleep tight.
Especially those of you who don't sleep well.
*smooch*

Goodnight, Floral.

605 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:47:42pm

How many prominent members of the GOP have stood up and denounced the parties use of violent rhetoric? In other words, how many have done the right thing?
I am going to guess that it is a fraction of the number who have gone on the offensive and have defended the talk of violence and revolution.

606 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:53:14pm

re: #603 Dark_Falcon

Don't know what happened to this post. Not worth putting it back together, either. Suffice it to say it said that Allen West can be beaten by someone who can clearly articulate why West's violent rhetoric is wrong and who won't be intimidated. That was the point I wanted to make.

It will be interesting to see how the next POTUS campaign unfolds. I may have to go into hibernation again.

607 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:53:53pm

re: #582 ggt

Kinda creepy that all the guns have to be registered. There is some post-poned regulation on marking of firearms.

Why is that creepy?

608 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:54:49pm

re: #606 ggt

It will be interesting to see how the next POTUS campaign unfolds. I may have to go into hibernation again.

Well, we're at least 6 months away from you needing to do that. We'll see what happens.

But now I'm going to go to bed. Goodnight, all.

609 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:56:04pm

re: #596 Floral Giraffe

Courtesy, and respect, are not common these days.
Not anything like they used be.
They are lost skills, Sir.

I agree with you that courtesy and respect are a lost art.

Unfortunately I really wasn't being completely serious.

It was snarky message to an obvious troll.

610 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:57:10pm

re: #467 SpaceJesus

I KNOW YOURE READING THIS

lol

611 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:58:25pm

re: #607 Fozzie Bear

Why is that creepy?

Because criminals don't follow laws and because of the old meme "registration comes before confiscation".

I'm specifically remembering the gun confiscations in NOLA after Katrina.

612 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 10:58:37pm

Here's the problem with the poll question: which government? Our own, elected government? Then of course the answer is effectively never. Or any government, ruling by any means whatever? Then, of course, the answer is, of course violence can be necessary.

Had the question been phrased differently, the percentage answering yes would have been down in the low single digits among both parties. Had the same question been put during the time of minimum Bush popularity, the percentage answering yes would have been higher among Democrats.

And if violence were a real possibility on any mass scale that could change anything, the answers would have all been "no, and what are you trying to do, get me arrested"?

613 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 11:09:32pm

The Cat Overlord is telling me it's time to go to bed. I must obey.

Have a great morning all!

614 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 11:18:42pm

The poll questions were prepared by well educated professionals.
People are grasping at straws. That talking point died a miserable death hours ago.

It doesn't matter, it is just a distraction. The GOP is going to lose this issue big, unless the party denounces the use of violent rhetoric.

615 Meitantei  Tue, Jan 11, 2011 11:52:18pm

re: #598 Reginald Perrin

I'm not trolling, and I'll admit I didn't read through all 500 posts. My apologies, and I should have known the question would have been addressed already.

Furthermore, I don't see the necessary need to address things between sides. Just because I feel that there are concerns over the poll means I condone the violence, nor does it mean that I don't understand the concerns which Charles has. That said, it is possible for some degree of skewing as a result. That's all I'm trying to say.

616 Reginald Perrin  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 12:00:11am

re: #615 Meitantei

So you feel that talk of violent retribution and revolution belong in the GOP's political message?

If you answer no to that question, then the poll question becomes irrelevant.

However, if you answer yes to the above question, it is a waste of time responding to your comment.

It is not appropriate to add talk of revolution and violence to political discourse, not now, not ever.

617 Meitantei  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 12:07:50am

re: #616 Reginald Perrin

No, of course not. But that's what I'm observing, that the poll question is irrelevant. Nothing more.

And with the current government, it's not appropriate, nor should it be for the forseeable future. Now, if Obama actually did ZOMG DEATH CAMPS STALINISM stuff, then that's a different story. But that's our duty really, to make sure that people understand that's a load of crock, and under the current circumstances, to advocate violence and revolution like the Tea Party is doing today is ridiculous at best and dangerous at worst.

618 Reginald Perrin  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 12:18:56am

re: #617 Meitantei

619 samgak  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 12:55:35am
CBS News published a new poll today, showing that a majority of Americans believe Jared Lee Loughner’s politics were a factor in the Arizona mass murder.


45% is not a majority.

620 samgak  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 1:09:43am
The poll also shows that while three in four Americans say violence against the government is never justified, 16 percent say it can be justified — the same percentage that said as much in April


Like most polls, this is a silly question, as it depends on how you interpret it. If "the government" is taken to mean a democratically elected government, much the same as exists now, then answering yes is the sign of a dangerous extremist. However depending on what kind of wild hypothetical situations you are willing to consider, your answer may vary. What if, at some point a hundred years from now, the government becomes a military dictatorship? How literally do you take the word "never"? And what constitutes violence against the government? Scuffling with police at a demonstration? I know this sounds like weasel-words, but poll question writers are supposed to avoid these ambiguities.

621 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 3:03:56am

re: #620 samgak

re: #617 Meitantei

Yet again: That the question is badly-crafted is not directly relevant when noticing that republicans are more than twice as likely to endorse violence against the government as independents or democrats. There is still a difference, a very large one, revealed by the poll. You can argue, if you like, that all the republicans interpreted it in the more free way, but then you have to consider why they are doing so.

622 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:06:47am

Help me out with the language plz. Does "the" in "the government" indicate the government as it is in the US now?

623 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:10:33am

re: #622 Sergey Romanov

It neither does nor doesn't. The question was asked in a poll with other questions directly relevant to the Arizona shooting; an actual example of violence against this government.

So, as I said, at best, at minimum, this poll shows that Republicans are far, far, far more likely than independents or Democrats to imagine a scenario where our government changes into something that needs to be violently resisted.

624 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:17:23am

re: #623 Obdicut

It neither does nor doesn't.

OK, still not clear. Do you mean it like this: while it doesn't necessarily indicate the current govt, it does indicate AN American govt, perhaps in the future?

625 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:18:30am

re: #623 Obdicut

IOW, it doesn't indicate a govt in general (like North Korean one etc.)? And I mean not just the overall context of the poll, but the language of the question.

626 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:22:19am

re: #624 Sergey Romanov

OK, still not clear. Do you mean it like this: while it doesn't necessarily indicate the current govt, it does indicate AN American govt, perhaps in the future?

No, it doesn't indicate either. It's semantically vague in the English language.

And I mean not just the overall context of the poll, but the language of the question.

English is a context-dependent language, though. If someone in the US says, "I have a problem with the government being too nosy", it is automatically understood he's talking about our government. If someone says "The government ought to listen to the people", 99% of the time they are not expressing a philosophical statement, but talking about the actual, real government.

As I said: even with that built-in semantic vagueness, the results of the poll still demonstrate a difference. What that difference means can be argued. The difference exists.

627 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:24:15am

re: #626 Obdicut

Thanks, that cleared it up for me. I agree that the difference is meaningful since everyone was asked the same (though faulty) question.

628 samgak  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:33:27am
Yet again: That the question is badly-crafted is not directly relevant when noticing that republicans are more than twice as likely to endorse violence against the government as independents or democrats. There is still a difference, a very large one, revealed by the poll. You can argue, if you like, that all the republicans interpreted it in the more free way, but then you have to consider why they are doing so.


I tend to think that if the survey is fundamentally flawed then no useful information can be salvaged from it, but I can think of several reasons why Republicans would answer it in the more free way:

First, Republicans are a lot more pro-gun, and one of the justifications for the 2nd Amendment is to enable violence to be directed at the government should it (hypothetically) become a tyranny. So naturally a lot of them consider that a real possibly (however distant currently). Secondly, this is perhaps a little on the side of pop psychology but I think that liberals are typically a little more socially intelligent than conservatives, who are more literal-minded to the point of being a little anti-social. Liberals would be more likely to intuit the purpose and motivation behind the survey and provide the "correct" answer that makes them look good.

To illustrate the point with an analogy, suppose you asked someone if they thought it was ever OK to use violence against a woman. A socially adept person (especially if they are male) will just say an unambiguous NO, because they realize that any other answer is just going to get them branded as "the guy who thinks it's OK to hit women", or "the guy who makes excuses for violence against women". A more literal-minded or analytic person will probably think of some example (e.g. a female suicide bomber) where it would be OK to use violence against them to protect others and answer yes, which while technically might be a more "correct" answer, is a very socially inept thing to say. After all, who cares about such technicalities, why give someone the ammunition to paint you as a violent misogynist?

I admit this is mostly just speculation on my part but it certainly coheres with my experience. A lot of engineers I know who are conservative would be especially prone to falling into this trap.

629 jamesfirecat  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:35:35am

re: #612 lostlakehiker

Had the same question been put during the time of minimum Bush popularity, the percentage answering yes would have been higher among Democrats.

You know many people (myself among them) managed to raise the same objection that you did, and t hey did it without making unfounded claims about other groups propensity for violence.

Trufax!

630 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:37:31am

re: #628 samgak

Um, you've kind of got the violence against women thing backwards. Eschewing violence against women is actually a 'conservative', old-school value.

I'm not sure why you view this question as a 'trap'.

And yes, your pop psychology seems very pop psychology.

631 gandalf.il  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:42:10am

re: #15 Charles

I would have ignored the context if I was answering this question in this poll too. The question was "is violence against the government _EVER_ justified" (my emphasis).

For me, the answer the same is gdalpert's, as history is full of these cases.
Needless to say, if the question would have referred to the US gov't (or my own Israeli gov't) the answer would be a resounding no.

The question is bogus, and I suspect they were seeking a catchy headline.

632 gandalf.il  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:45:28am

re: #22 Charles

Not to be too difficult, but that popped into my head too. I'm not right wing _at all_, I'm pro tight gun control, and I'm not even an American, and still the American Revolution popped into my head when I read this question.

633 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 4:46:01am

re: #631 gandalf.il

What do you make of the difference in responses between independents and the GOP?

634 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 6:32:42am

re: re: #632 gandalf.il

Not to be too difficult, but that popped into my head too. I'm not right wing _at all_, I'm pro tight gun control, and I'm not even an American, and still the American Revolution popped into my head when I read this question.

8855382">#22 Charles

I think we're seeing the right wing talking point emerging quickly.

"They were just thinking about the American Revolution!"

Way late coming in here:

This just shows that the poll question was abyssmally stupid. If the question had been asked in isolation, on some Wednesday in 2010, my second thought would have been the 400 years my people did violence against the established government in Dublin. My first thought would have been the Declaration of Independence. I've never voted GOP and I despise the Tea Parties. The poll just reveals how people take polls.

635 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 6:41:45am

re: #631 gandalf.il

That honestly was my first reaction. Then I read through the whole thing, which does provide more context. Bottom lline IMO-Yes CBS was seeking a ratings/headline boost. It's what media companies do.

BUT, it also further revealed an ugly dangerous mood out there. Undeniably so.

636 gandalf.il  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 7:16:08am

re: #633 Obdicut

I admit I can't answer that. I don't know.
Could it be that even with a proper poll question the result would have stayed the same? Maybe, and maybe not (god I hope not). Can't tell that based on this difference alone.

I just don't think it is wise to try and force answers out of a damaged poll.

637 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 7:23:13am

re: #636 gandalf.il

I admit I can't answer that. I don't know.
Could it be that even with a proper poll question the result would have stayed the same? Maybe, and maybe not (god I hope not). Can't tell that based on this difference alone.

I just don't think it is wise to try and force answers out of a damaged poll.

I agree with you that the poll is damaged, but since we're not using it for precise gauging or peer-reviewed analysis, I think the difference is still useful enough at least on the "impressionist" level - it seems to me that most people would "get" what this is about, and in fact most of them "got" it since the "yes" answers are in the minority.

638 MinisterO  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 7:33:02am

Whatever the poll actually measured, consumers of brand R koolaid were 2-3 times as likely to answer yes to a question of whether violence is appropriate.

I can't prove it, but it does suggest to me that the violent rhetoric of the right-wing is having a statistically significant effect on its listeners.

639 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 8:09:04am

re: #636 gandalf.il

I admit I can't answer that. I don't know.
Could it be that even with a proper poll question the result would have stayed the same? Maybe, and maybe not (god I hope not). Can't tell that based on this difference alone.

I just don't think it is wise to try and force answers out of a damaged poll.

The poll does reveal something. If we take the answer in the most positive light, as you do, that the question may be semantically vague, then it shows that a higher number of Republicans than independents or Democrats answered it in the form of "Is violence acceptable against (bad, tyrannical, whatever) government".

Which means that that group is far more likely to interpret the question as being about the necessity of resisting tyrannical governments.

And at the same time, as repeatedly pointed out by Killgore, we have a widespread belief on the right that the current government is tyrannical.

So it is still rather problematic.

640 funky chicken  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 8:32:05am

re: #4 jamesfirecat

For the moment I'm still "meh" about this because honestly I think violence against the government can be justified... provided that the government in question is say the Third Reich... everything is context and the question is too open ended in my opinion...

Yep. I'm more comfortable saying that violence against "the government" is justified than saying that violence against civilians is justified.

I don't agree with the parallel given here. I am disgusted by the nasty Tea Party and Palinite rhetoric on the right.

641 funky chicken  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 8:35:06am

re: #638 MinisterO

Whatever the poll actually measured, consumers of brand R koolaid were 2-3 times as likely to answer yes to a question of whether violence is appropriate.

I can't prove it, but it does suggest to me that the violent rhetoric of the right-wing is having a statistically significant effect on its listeners.

Or the violent rhetoric has moved people uncomfortable with it to the independent or democratic party camps, so those who still self-identify as republican are more extreme but a smaller percentage of the population.

642 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 9:25:50am

Wow, I missed a good one here. Even in the context of the poll, the words 'ever' and 'never' in that question make it too absolute to be meaningful.

643 MinisterO  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 10:20:50am

re: #641 funky chicken

Or the violent rhetoric has moved people uncomfortable with it to the independent or democratic party camps, so those who still self-identify as republican are more extreme but a smaller percentage of the population.

I'm sure there's some of that but to account for the disparity more than half of prior Republicans would have to now self-identify as something else. It would be pretty obvious if that had occurred. It hasn't.

The brand R rhetoric may also be attracting violence-favoring types from other camps. Still, it's statistically unlikely that a recent shifting of labels explains it.

644 samgak  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 6:06:14pm
Um, you've kind of got the violence against women thing backwards. Eschewing violence against women is actually a 'conservative', old-school value.


It's a pretty non-partisan sentiment actually.

645 samgak  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 6:37:10pm

Obdicut:

And yes, your pop psychology seems very pop psychology.

I acknowledged it was speculation, but it's not as if there aren't studies that show these kind of differences. In particular, conservatives are less likely to tolerate ambiguity than liberals. Therefore it seems possible that they would interpret "never" and "ever" as more absolute terms. That could account for the difference in the results.

646 mich-again  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 7:52:12pm

I wonder how many if any Christians who espouse the anti-government bent are familiar with this passage from the New Testament. Just wondering out loud..

Romans 13: 1-7

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

647 Obdicut  Wed, Jan 12, 2011 8:08:27pm

re: #645 samgak

It's still a huge stretch. It's a testably huge stretch, though.


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