Jindal on Meet the Press

Politics • Views: 2,299

This morning Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal was on Meet the Press, and despite the fact that David Gregory’s call for questions on his blog resulted in many suggestions that Gregory ask Jindal about his support for creationism and his other extreme social conservative positions, there wasn’t a single question from Gregory on these subjects.

My take: the MSM and the left would love it if Jindal is the GOP nominee in 2012, because he will lose. So they’re going to ignore all the damaging issues until then, preemptively sabotaging any effort to find a more viable GOP candidate.

Also see
Major Scientific Society Boycotts Louisiana to Protest Creationism Bill

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481 comments
1 yochanan  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:46:37am

just wait till the zero fails.

2 SlartyBartfast  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:47:19am
My take: the MSM and the left would love it if Jindal is the GOP nominee in 2012, because he will lose. So they’re going to ignore all the damaging issues until then, preemptively sabotaging any effort to find a more viable GOP candidate.

That's exactly my read on this as well. Just like McCain '08.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...?

3 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:47:45am

I strongly suspect we're going to see a Jindal/Palin ticket in 2012.

4 Bloodnok  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:47:51am

Trying their best keep their trump cards up their sleeves until '12.

5 Cognito  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:48:24am

re: #3 Killgore Trout

I strongly suspect we're going to see a Jindal/Palin ticket in 2012.

Never happen, I think.

6 Nevergiveup  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:49:10am

re: #3 Killgore Trout

I strongly suspect we're going to see a Jindal/Palin ticket in 2012.

And who are the 2 teams that are going to play in the super bowl in 2012?

7 Summer Seale  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:49:41am

I'm just outraged at the hypocrisy of asking the public what questions should be asked, and then ignoring the predominant theme of the questions altogether as if we never asked them (and I did post on his comments to suggest what questions to ask). I feel totally angry and insulted by this.

8 pink freud  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:49:59am

re: #3 Killgore Trout

I strongly suspect we're going to see a Jindal/Palin ticket in 2012.

Palin's done. They'll not trot her out again.

9 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:50:43am

re: #5 Cognito

What's your guess?

10 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:50:51am
My take: the MSM and the left would love it if Jindal is the GOP nominee in 2012, because he will lose. So they’re going to ignore all the damaging issues until then, preemptively sabotaging any effort to find a more viable GOP candidate.

What can people do to stop this? Raise a ruckus on local and state levels?

11 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:51:21am

re: #3 Killgore Trout
God Forbid!

12 reggie  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:51:27am
they’re going to ignore all the damaging issues until then


I couldn't agree with you more. MSM wants Jindal to be the GOP nominee, because that's an easy narrative for the lazy bastards to write. They fear Bill Crist (Gov, FL) who is trying to endear himself to the MSM by taking on McCain-like characteristics, crossing the aisle, etc.

13 Afrocity  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:51:43am

re: #3 Killgore Trout

I strongly suspect we're going to see a Jindal/Palin ticket in 2012.

I strongly suspect we're going to see a Palin/Steele ticket in 2012.
She is NOT done.

14 LC HOGHEAD  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:51:57am

Jindals views make him unelectable. Even a seriously damaged 0bama could beat him. FWIW, Im keeping my eye on Eric Cantor.

15 Perplexed  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:52:03am

Watch out for conservatives that the press ignores as they either aren't doing their job properly or have a graveyard of skeletons in their closet. Go for the ones that the press hates and support those as candidates.

16 Nevergiveup  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:52:19am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

What's your guess?

Anybody who guesses before 2011, well, I got this bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

17 yochanan  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:52:46am

not even going to think about who to support until 2011

18 Cognito  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:52:50am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

What's your guess?

I dunno. We're too far out.

But I think Palin is positively radioactive. All someone has to do to discredit her is say "South Africa." So I think that, if we see Jindal run at all, it'll be with a sober, policy-minded partner whose selection helps tamp down talk about religion, etc.

19 Lynn B.  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:52:53am

Jindal danced around the question of whether he's even planning to run for president, implying but not quite promising that he'd serve out a second term as governor if elected. And then Gregory played that tape of Obama saying categorically back in 2006 that he would NOT.

Heh.

20 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:52:59am

I could not agree more.

I like Jindal, (other than his stealth creationist crap) but he is NOT electable.

Note to Republican leadership: Our media is in the tank for God jr. and the corruptocrats. Find someone who has a chance. Please.

21 SlartyBartfast  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:54:00am

re: #7 Summer

There's a big difference between learning of a person's weaknesses--in this case, Jindal's--and exposing that person's weaknesses. I'm sure David Gregory found the questions interesting for the former, not for the latter.

22 Perplexed  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:54:41am

re: #20 FrogMarch

I could not agree more.

I like Jindal, (other than his stealth creationist crap) but he is NOT electable.

Note to Republican leadership: Our media is in the tank for God jr. and the corruptocrats. Find someone who has a chance. Please.

For the ONE to complete his agenda he's going to have to rein in the media. Once he does that the media will turn on him.

23 Nevergiveup  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:54:52am

Netanyahu vows to work with Obama for peace


[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

U.S. Senator Joe Lieberman, meanwhile, said Sunday that a Netanyahu-led government would enjoy good relations with Washington.


Joe, bubbie, baby, what the hell are you smoking?

24 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:55:38am

re: #1 yochanan

just wait till the zero fails.

It doesn't matter how badly Obama and his band of thieves fail - the MFM will cover. it is up to the Republican leadership to promote an electable candidate.
If not - say hello to another 4 years of president government.

25 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:55:48am

re: #23 Nevergiveup

Whatever it is, it's some real good shit.

26 esch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:56:32am

re: #25 pingjockey

Whatever it is, it's some real good shit.

Aw man, the Jews get all the good stuff.

/

27 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:57:13am
28 Truck Monkey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:57:38am

re: #12 reggie

I couldn't agree with you more. MSM wants Jindal to be the GOP nominee, because that's an easy narrative for the lazy bastards to write. They fear Bill Crist (Gov, FL) who is trying to endear himself to the MSM by taking on McCain-like characteristics, crossing the aisle, etc.

President McCain is working out pretty well for us huh? Crist, or anyone similar, would be toast come 2012.

29 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:57:45am

re: #26 esch
Speaking of which, my damn Zionist conspiracy check is late...again.

30 pink freud  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:57:54am

re: #27 RobCon

Kamikaze. Bye bye.

31 SlartyBartfast  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:58:17am

re: #15 Perplexed

Watch out for conservatives that the press ignores as they either aren't doing their job properly or have a graveyard of skeletons in their closet. Go for the ones that the press hates and support those as candidates.

Exactly! When Palin stepped onto the political stage, the MSM reacted as though their house was on fire. They literally feared her.

I'm not saying she's a good candidate for 2012, but from now on I'm going to be tempted to take a favorable approach at anyone who is attacked by the MSM.

32 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:58:19am

re: #27 RobCon

Danger Will Robinson!

33 BlueCanuck  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:58:35am

re: #30 pink freud

Man that wrench is getting quite a work out this weekend.

34 reggie  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:58:46am

I love Palin and I love Steele for their values and for the sacrifices they make personally to share and promote those (i.e. my) values. And it would be naive not to recognize identitiy politics, and their value in attracting those votes or at least undermining the left's female and black demagogues. BUT, after watching countless interviews and excerpts of each, I have never been able to view either as being able to take on the MSM successfully. Steele is much better at pounding the message, but Sarah never seems able to get the message off of her.

35 Nevergiveup  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:58:51am

re: #29 pingjockey

Speaking of which, my damn Zionist conspiracy check is late...again.

Speaking of which, I didn't see anything in the stimulus bill about those checks?

36 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:58:59am

re: #30 pink freud
For a Sunday, Charles and Stinky have been very busy with assorted vermin this morning.

37 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:59:25am

Comments telling me what I should not post at LGF are going to be deleted.

38 Nevergiveup  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:59:26am

Somebody said a no no

39 pink freud  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:59:36am

re: #33 BlueCanuck

Man that wrench is getting quite a work out this weekend.

40 Afrocity  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:59:49am

re: #34 reggie

And who do you feel in the GOP does?

41 Summer Seale  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:00:08am

re: #21 SlartyBartfast

There's a big difference between learning of a person's weaknesses--in this case, Jindal's--and exposing that person's weaknesses. I'm sure David Gregory found the questions interesting for the former, not for the latter.

I totally understand and agree, but what he did was still inexcusable.

42 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:00:18am

re: #35 Nevergiveup
They will be confiscated and given to the heroic savages in Palestine.///

43 yochanan  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:00:25am

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

44 pink freud  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:00:57am

re: #39 pink freud

Hmmm ....

I'd replied: Yes, Blue, like Thor swinging his hammer. I watched it all. Wow.

45 BlueCanuck  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:02:27am

re: #44 pink freud

Hmmm ....

I'd replied: Yes, Blue, like Thor swinging his hammer. I watched it all. Wow.

Let's keep it American at the least. More like a John Henry. :)

46 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:02:28am

re: #28 Truck Monkey

President McCain is working out pretty well for us huh? Crist, or anyone similar, would be toast come 2012.

Charlie Crist would go down in flames. He is trying to use the McCain model, suck up to Democrats. That doesn't mean that he couldn't get nominated with MSM support & open primaries, but he could never get elected.

47 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:02:28am

re: #43 yochanan
How 'ultranationalist' is this gentleman?

48 Afrocity  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:03:13am

re: #46 opnion

Charlie Crist would go down in flames. He is trying to use the McCain model, suck up to Democrats. That doesn't mean that he couldn't get nominated with MSM support & open primaries, but he could never get elected.

McCain wasn't that much of a sleazeball.

49 dapperdave  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:03:15am

In 2008 it was Obama vs. McCain, I voted for McCain
I would rather have McCain, Huckabee, Romney or any Republican sitting in the White House then this B.O. socialist crap any day of the week.
Yes the lesser of two evils is still evil but when it comes to a choice I would gladly have a small government free market conservative then a leftwing demoncrat.

50 reggie  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:03:21am

re: #28 Truck Monkey

President McCain is working out pretty well for us huh? Crist, or anyone similar, would be toast come 2012.


Don't get me wrong.... I have no idea how seriously Crist has drunk the koolaid. Follow the money press coverage- David Gregory invited him onto Meet The Press. Okay, the money, too- he's not going to let the FL legislature end-run him on directing where to spend FL's stimulus.

51 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:04:11am

re: #14 LC HOGHEAD

Jindals views make him unelectable. Even a seriously damaged 0bama could beat him. FWIW, Im keeping my eye on Eric Cantor.

I googled his name and creationism and his name and evolution and got this video both times.

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

52 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:04:36am

By the way, 'RobCon' -- you made this comment a couple of days ago:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And I responded to you here and asked you a question. Would you care to answer?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

53 Afrocity  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:06:19am

re: #49 dapperdave

Amen!

54 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:06:28am

re: #48 Afrocity

McCain wasn't that much of a sleazeball.

No, he isn't. However being Democrat light, when the real thing is available is not a good strategy. I know that you are not saying that.

55 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:06:29am

re: #52 Charles

History is an unforgiving bitch! Heh.

56 Macker  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:06:48am

Um...shouldn't that be Meet the Depressed? Kinda like SeeBS' Disgrace The Nation?

57 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:06:59am

re: #20 FrogMarch

I could not agree more.

I like Jindal, (other than his stealth creationist crap) but he is NOT electable.

Note to Republican leadership: Our media is in the tank for God jr. and the corruptocrats. Find someone who has a chance. Please.

When I say "I like him" - I mean the man has some positive qualities. But those positive qualities are NOT enough to win. And the conservative movement (if there even is one anymore) must take a stand against creationism/ID taught as a science class in our schools. NOW.

58 reggie  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:07:12am

re: #40 Afrocity

And who do you feel in the GOP does?

As a presidential candidate, Romney and Guliani top(ped) my list. The next election will be about fiscal ability, and either of these two run circles around any Dem.

59 researchok  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:07:38am

How anyone can take Jindal seriously is beyoned comprehension.

I can only hope there is no talk of exorcising the economy from all the bad juju.

60 Perplexed  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:08:18am

A conservative candidate must first be a person of principles. They've got to hold onto those principles regardless of what gets thrown at them for holding those principles. They've got to be willing to stand up to the press for the lies are surely to come. They've got to be honest, first with themselves and then with the pubic.

61 reggie  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:08:24am

re: #58 reggie

As a presidential candidate, Romney and Guliani top(ped) my list. The next election will be about fiscal ability, and either of these two run circles around any Dem.


OOPS! Left out Cantor for this go-around. Big, big favorite of mine. Shame on me for forgetting him.

62 Nevergiveup  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:08:57am

A senior member of royal family says he is certain that one day there will be movie theaters in the conservative kingdom.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

But no Jews!

63 pink freud  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:10:08am

re: #61 reggie

See Mandy's link above re Cantor.

64 Afrocity  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:10:32am

re: #58 reggie

As a presidential candidate, Romney and Guliani top(ped) my list. The next election will be about fiscal ability, and either of these two run circles around any Dem.

I would sit out the election in that case.

65 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:10:42am

re: #62 Nevergiveup

Even the Third Reich had a penchant for the arts.

66 yochanan  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:11:04am

charles is free to post any thread he wants it's his house. no one is forcing anyone to go onto a thread they disagree with. IF YOU DON'T LIKE A SUBJECT DON'T GO THERE.

67 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:11:11am

re: #62 Nevergiveup

No Jews is good Jews....Old Majik Kingdom proverb.//////////////

68 Nevergiveup  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:11:37am

Report: Greek convicts escape from prison in helicopter

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Hey I got a good idea. Lets close Gitmo and let the Europeans house some of these terrorist murders?

69 itellu3times  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:12:08am

re: #62 Nevergiveup

A senior member of royal family says he is certain that one day there will be movie theaters in the conservative kingdom.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

But no Jews!

With a burqa over the projector, and another over the screen.

70 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:12:25am

Jindal's refusal to take stimulus money is just another indication that he's a political grandstander who does NOT really have the best interests of his state in mind. His promotion of the stealth creationist bill has already resulted in a boycott by a very large scientific convention that would have brought millions of dollars into New Orleans, and now he's appealing to the populist base with this stimulus decision -- at the expense of Louisiana.

At Meeting, Governors Share Plans for Stimulus Funds.

Asked about Jindal's and Barbour's pledges to turn away stimulus funds aimed at expanding state unemployment insurance, California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger quipped, "You just tell them that anyone that doesn't want to take the money: I'm ready to take their money and rebuild California."

71 yochanan  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:13:14am

re: #47 pingjockey

How 'ultranationalist' is this gentleman?

NOT ALL THAT MUCH BUT HE ISN'T A LIBERAL so the media both in Israel and here will paint him that way. in fact on religious issues he is rather liberal/centerist.

72 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:13:18am

re: #69 itellu3times
I hate when they use the term 'conservative' to describe SA. They aren't conservative, they're medieval.

73 yma o hyd  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:13:19am

re: #65 formercorpsman

Even the Third Reich had a penchant for the arts.

Only for certain 'arts' - the other, modern arts were banned/sold off/destroyed.
Funnily enough - it was the same in the Soviet Union ...


Hiya, Lizard Nation!
Busy night for some, I saw :-)))

74 jaunte  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:14:21am

re: #70 Charles

Some of that stimulus money belonged to Louisiana in the first place.

75 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:14:29am

re: #71 yochanan
Thanks. I was wondering if the Israeli press was as liberal as the press in the US.

76 yochanan  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:15:03am

charles it would depend on which funds. some of the money has srings attached that in the case of unemployment money might in the long view cost the states more money than they save in the short term.

77 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:15:40am

re: #73 yma o hyd

You got my drift.

78 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:16:16am

re: #76 yochanan

charles it would depend on which funds. some of the money has srings attached that in the case of unemployment money might in the long view cost the states more money than they save in the short term.

In what ways?

79 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:16:19am

re: #73 yma o hyd

Busy night for some, I saw :-)))

With so much meat available, Charles is serving fresh links this morning.

80 Westward Ho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:16:26am

re: #71 yochanan

I read that he was a member of the Kach party.

81 yma o hyd  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:17:45am

re: #79 pre-Boomer Marine brat

With so much meat available, Charles is serving fresh links this morning.

Yeah - can't let it go to waste, now can we?

(Gives a whole new meaning to the expression 'Sunday Roast', teeheehee!)

82 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:18:04am

{Yma} Good afternoon..
I went back this morning to read the overnight..
Hope today finds yo well

83 reine.de.tout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:18:36am

re: #78 MandyManners

In what ways?

Jindal said the unemployment money requires a permanent change in the state's unemployment laws, that would require the state and businesses in it to ante up more money for this program once the stimulus money runs out in 3 years.

84 DistantThunder  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:18:47am

The MSM is keeping it's powder dry. Once again we are being set up - but let's not take the bait.

85 Bubblehead II  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:19:04am

Delurking

Charles shut down comments on the Beck thread. Too many nut jobs posting weird crap.

Relurking

86 esch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:19:16am

re: #83 reine.de.tout

Jindal said the unemployment money requires a permanent change in the state's unemployment laws, that would require the state and businesses in it to ante up more money for this program once the stimulus money runs out in 3 years.

Gotta keep paying those mortgages and fillin' up the tank, ya know.

87 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:19:17am

re: #70 Charles

I think saying no to the stimulus fraud is a good thing. And I also think that Gov. Schwarzenegger has had a little too much of his wife's kool-aid.
but that's just me.

if Jindal were smart he should come out and say "Instead of increasing my states welfare rolls, I'd like to use the Stimulus money to fix the levees once and for all. But there wasn't any money in the Stimulus assigned to fix the problems in New Orleans related to hurricane Katrina."

or something...

88 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:19:24am

re: #80 Westward Ho

I read that he was a member of the Kach party.

Avigdor Lieberman was indeed a member of Kach:

[Link: haaretz.com...]

89 screaming_eagle  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:20:13am

re: #83 reine.de.tout

Jindal said the unemployment money requires a permanent change in the state's unemployment laws, that would require the state and businesses in it to ante up more money for this program once the stimulus money runs out in 3 years.

And a change that makes part-time empolees eligble for unemployment.

90 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:20:28am

re: #85 Bubblehead II

We haven't seen a thread shut down in quite a while.

91 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:20:31am

re: #84 DistantThunder

I totally concur. They got their ideologue elected by not asking questions.

They will sink the oppositional ideologues by pounding certain questions.

92 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:20:43am

I like Mark Sanford in 2012. He's more socially conservative than I, but not a fire-breather. He is a serious fiscal conservative who has done a great job in South Carolina.

He would be an extremely strong candidate, and could be somebody that social conservatives could support.....unless they remain where they are now and demand a candidate like GW Bush (favorite philosopher Jesus Christ, etc) or Jindal (creationism chic).

93 yma o hyd  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:20:48am

re: #82 HoosierHoops

{Yma} Good afternoon..
I went back this morning to read the overnight..
Hope today finds yo well

Hiya, {HH}!
Had a taste of very early spring this morning: sun, and a mild breeze from the West. Nice.
Hazel catkins pollinating - birds singing their heads off: winter will be over soon!

How are you doing on this fine sunday?

94 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:21:09am

re: #82 HoosierHoops

{Yma} Good afternoon..
I went back this morning to read the overnight..
Hope today finds yo well

Hoops! I was looking for you. I know that you are not an ND fan, but you know basketball. They have stopped the skid & won three of the last four including a stopming of Louisville.
What do you think that the Irish need to do to get to March Madness?

95 yma o hyd  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:22:07am

re: #85 Bubblehead II

Delurking

Charles shut down comments on the Beck thread. Too many nut jobs posting weird crap.

Relurking

Aww - now I've gotta go there and see for meself!

96 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:22:08am

re: #90 Killgore Trout
There was some extremely goofy, loony, mad stuff being posted.

97 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:22:09am

OT: for the gun nuts....
BELTFED 12 GAUGE UPPER RECEIVER

98 Nevergiveup  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:22:17am

re: #94 opnion

Hoops! I was looking for you. I know that you are not an ND fan, but you know basketball. They have stopped the skid & won three of the last four including a stopming of Louisville.
What do you think that the Irish need to do to get to March Madness?

Pray

99 Afrocity  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:23:04am

re: #98 Nevergiveup

How are the Chicago Bulls doing?

100 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:23:42am

re: #83 reine.de.tout

Jindal said the unemployment money requires a permanent change in the state's unemployment laws, that would require the state and businesses in it to ante up more money for this program once the stimulus money runs out in 3 years.

I don't blame him for refusing that bit of money.

101 jaunte  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:24:00am

re: #97 Killgore Trout

OT: for the gun nuts....
BELTFED 12 GAUGE UPPER RECEIVER

He could use a longer feed ramp.

102 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:24:18am

re: #87 FrogMarch

Arnold has not been a good steward of the California economy.
He & the Dem legilature will just squander the money & come back for more. They sent IOU's for state tax refunds!

103 Bubblehead II  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:24:20am

re: #90 Killgore Trout

I know. You would think that with all the deletions and Bannings that they would have gotten a clue that Charles will not stand for certain things being posted on his blog.

104 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:25:01am

re: #98 Nevergiveup

Pray


Ok, beside that,

105 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:25:41am

re: #87 FrogMarch

I think saying no to the stimulus fraud is a good thing. And I also think that Gov. Schwarzenegger has had a little too much of his wife's kool-aid.
but that's just me.

if Jindal were smart he should come out and say "Instead of increasing my states welfare rolls, I'd like to use the Stimulus money to fix the levees once and for all. But there wasn't any money in the Stimulus assigned to fix the problems in New Orleans related to hurricane Katrina."

or something...

LOL now that would be funny. But you assume that anybody really cares about those levees....beyond their use as a political football.

Jindal is a good governor for Louisiana. I genuinely wish he hadn't signed that creationism bill....but it's Louisiana. The majority of the population probably did support it.

Jindal appears to have a strong understanding of fiscal issues, and appears to understand Louisiana's problems and has good ideas for potential solutions for those problems. I wish him success on helping to improve his state.

And I pray that he will stay there for many, many terms doing exactly that....

106 reggie  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:25:47am

re: #63 pink freud

See Mandy's link above re Cantor.


? Followed the link, already knew the story, enjoyed the video. This hurts Cantor.... how?

107 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:25:48am

re: #101 jaunte

I think he has some belt jamming problems. he has to stop and fiddle with something on the right side.

108 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:25:58am

but...

The governors are gathering as many are laying off state workers and making difficult cuts to services to help balance their budgets. They met with some of Obama's Cabinet secretaries yesterday and will attend a black-tie dinner tonight at the White House, where the band Earth Wind & Fire will perform. Tomorrow morning, they will meet with Obama.


....

This doesn't get us off the hook," said Rendell, chairman of the governors association. "This helps us; it stops us from having massive layoffs, incredible reductions in services that would expose our citizens to tremendous personal risks. We understand that we have to use this money quickly."

So Rendell is saying the sky is falling - but they can put on a fancy outfit and go to a concert to help forget.

109 yochanan  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:26:40am

t-bone PICK-your pockets will now be on fox.

110 Nevergiveup  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:27:08am

re: #109 yochanan

t-bone PICK-your pockets will now be on fox.

How's his wind turbines working out?

111 Westward Ho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:27:14am

re: #88 Charles

Zealots are bad news anywhere.

112 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:27:17am

re: #106 reggie

? Followed the link, already knew the story, enjoyed the video. This hurts Cantor.... how?

I didn't say it did.

113 DistantThunder  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:27:45am

I'm starting to see the big cracks in Obama's psyche. He survivied by being everything to everyone, keeping everyone happy including michelle, oprah, hillary, balgo, Rezko, pro-life people some of whom he convinced he was pro-life, pro-choice to whom he promised that he would sign the FOCA on the first day in office.... anti-war, pro-soldier - he spun everyone.

See the promise on Drudge to tax all the rich - that means you Mr Buckley, and Mr Brooks, because the deficit critisim is driving obama crazy. It's like one big political intervention - and Obama is the adoration addict.

heh.

114 jaunte  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:28:04am

re: #107 Killgore Trout

I think he has some belt jamming problems. he has to stop and fiddle with something on the right side.

He mentions a shell ejection problem that he's working on. It's interesting to see all the devices people use to burn money.

115 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:28:22am

re: #92 funky chicken

I like Mark Sanford in 2012. He's more socially conservative than I, but not a fire-breather. He is a serious fiscal conservative who has done a great job in South Carolina.

He would be an extremely strong candidate, and could be somebody that social conservatives could support.....unless they remain where they are now and demand a candidate like GW Bush (favorite philosopher Jesus Christ, etc) or Jindal (creationism chic).

Unfortunately, Mark Sanford wants to teach "intelligent design" creationism in public schools.

Newswatch * WIS * TV * January 29, 2006
Host: David Stanton
Guest: Gov. Mark Sanford

DS: What do you think about the idea of teaching alternatives to Darwin's Theory of Evolution in public schools* for instance Intelligent Design?

Gov. Sanford: I have no problem with it.

DS: Do you think it should be done that way? Rather than just teaching evolution?

Gov. Sanford: Well I think that it's just, and science is more and more documenting this, is that there are real "chinks" in the armor of evolution being the only way we came about. The idea of there being a, you know, a little mud hole and two mosquitoes get together and the next thing you know you have a human being* is completely at odds with, you know, one of the laws of thermodynamics which is the law of, of ... in essence, destruction.

Whether you think about your bedroom and how messy it gets over time or you think about the decay in the building itself over time. Things don't naturally order themselves towards progression*. Uuummm.. in the natural order of things. So, it's in fact, it's against fairly basic laws of physics* and so I would not have a problem in teaching both * Uh, you saying this is one theory and this is another theory.

116 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:28:29am

re: #93 yma o hyd

Hiya, {HH}!
Had a taste of very early spring this morning: sun, and a mild breeze from the West. Nice.
Hazel catkins pollinating - birds singing their heads off: winter will be over soon!

How are you doing on this fine sunday?

Doing wonderful today...Yes Springtime is almost here..We can put away the snuggies soon :)

117 Luigi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:28:34am
My take: the MSM and the left would love it if Jindal is the GOP nominee in 2012, because he will lose. So they’re going to ignore all the damaging issues until then, preemptively sabotaging any effort to find a more viable GOP candidate.


Check.

118 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:28:44am

re: #109 yochanan

t-bone PICK-your pockets will now be on fox.

Yeah ,did you notice that he thought that wind farms are the answer?
Never mind that he is invested in the technology & noone has figured out how to store the generated electricity.

119 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:29:36am

re: #88 Charles

Avigdor Lieberman was indeed a member of Kach:

[Link: haaretz.com...]

Avigdor Lieberman is a fascist.

120 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:29:54am

re: #119 Alouette

Avigdor Lieberman is a fascist.

Yep.

121 Bubblehead II  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:29:59am

BBIAW. Work calls.

122 reine.de.tout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:30:00am

re: #100 MandyManners

I don't blame him for refusing that bit of money.

Louisiana does not seem to be having the level of unemployment problems that other places are having - at least, not yet.

123 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:30:42am

re: #115 Charles

The idea of there being a, you know, a little mud hole and two mosquitoes get together and the next thing you know you have a human being* is completely at odds with, you know, one of the laws of thermodynamics which is the law of, of ... in essence, destruction.

Whether you think about your bedroom and how messy it gets over time or you think about the decay in the building itself over time. Things don't naturally order themselves towards progression*. Uuummm.. in the natural order of things. So, it's in fact, it's against fairly basic laws of physics* and so I would not have a problem in teaching both * Uh, you saying this is one theory and this is another theory.

What in the world?

124 transient  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:30:53am

Yossi Sarid on National Unity coalition.

If Netanyahu opens by offering [Dahlia] Itzik the post of Knesset speaker, he will gain an immediate advantage, and the negotiations will hit the highway.

The executive branch will thus be headed by a member of Likud, while the legislature will be headed by a member of Kadima. This arrangement is no whit inferior to rotation, they will explain; it is even a bit better - a full sharing of responsibility....After Kadima's united front begins to crack, two more moves will break it wide open. Livni will be offered the Foreign Ministry, and Shaul Mofaz - and this is the main thing - will be offered the Defense Ministry.

125 reine.de.tout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:31:20am

re: #105 funky chicken

. . .

Jindal is a good governor for Louisiana. I genuinely wish he hadn't signed that creationism bill....but it's Louisiana. The majority of the population probably did support it. is so uninvolved they probably had no clue what this was all about.
. . .

fixed it.

126 rawmuse  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:31:22am

re: #107 Killgore Trout

I think he has some belt jamming problems. he has to stop and fiddle with something on the right side.

I think it has more to do with the rounds being somewhat inconsistent. Some don't have enough pop to clear the chamber.

127 jaunte  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:31:28am

re: #123 MandyManners

He has a few problems with articulation, too.

128 Perplexed  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:32:20am

re: #123 MandyManners

What in the world?

He's going for the 2nd law of thermodynamics argument.

129 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:32:36am

re: #122 reine.de.tout

Louisiana does not seem to be having the level of unemployment problems that other places are having - at least, not yet.

I wonder if it's due to the recovery efforts.

130 Ben Hur  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:32:43am

Where is the outrage that not one RED cent of the Spending Bill is going to the victims of, or to repair damage caused by, Hurricane Katrina?

131 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:32:52am

re: #123 MandyManners
Well that's clear as mud.

132 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:32:52am

re: #94 opnion

Hoops! I was looking for you. I know that you are not an ND fan, but you know basketball. They have stopped the skid & won three of the last four including a stopming of Louisville.
What do you think that the Irish need to do to get to March Madness?

mmmm..didn't they win the big east game of the week yesterday? Against Providence? I don't follow ND at all..so I plead ignorance...
I've said this before..If Stanford ever wins the national championship I'm duct taping tree limbs to my body and running down the street naked..
/I'm not too worried about having to really have to do it..

133 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:33:10am

re: #127 jaunte

He has a few problems with articulation, too.

I still don't know what he said.

134 nyc redneck  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:33:12am

when the time is right, the msm will attack jindal w/ a vengeance.
he will be blind sided like mccain was. it is disgusting to think how they are orchestrating the situation even now. so early.
i remember the better candidates dropping like flies in the last election as the msm foisted mccain on us. and then did everything to disparage him.
we can not let this happen again. we must weed out the unelectable candidates
our selves.
fck the msm.

135 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:33:24am

re: #105 funky chicken

...
Jindal is a good governor for Louisiana. I genuinely wish he hadn't signed that creationism bill....but it's Louisiana. The majority of the population probably did support it.

Jindal appears to have a strong understanding of fiscal issues, and appears to understand Louisiana's problems and has good ideas for potential solutions for those problems. I wish him success on helping to improve his state.

And I pray that he will stay there for many, many terms doing exactly that....

____________

If Jindal were smart he should come out and say "Instead of increasing my states welfare rolls, I'd like to use the Stimulus money to fix the levees once and for all. But there wasn't any money in the Stimulus assigned to fix the problems in New Orleans related to hurricane Katrina."

"and I have decided to repeal the creationist bill"

/dreaming.

136 Gus  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:33:27am

re: #115 Charles

That a keeper!

The idea of there being a, you know, a little mud hole and two mosquitoes get together and the next thing you know you have a human being* is completely at odds with, you know, one of the laws of thermodynamics which is the law of, of ... in essence, destruction.

Governor Mark Sanford

Next!

/Where do they find these guys?

137 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:33:30am

re: #128 Perplexed

He's going for the 2nd law of thermodynamics argument.

Which is...?

138 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:33:55am

re: #131 pingjockey

Well that's clear as mud.

I've seen clearer mud.

139 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:34:05am

re: #116 HoosierHoops

Hoops did you see my #94 to you?

140 bellamags  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:34:14am

re: #134 nyc redneck

when the time is right, the msm will attack jindal w/ a vengeance.
he will be blind sided like mccain was. it is disgusting to think how they are orchestrating the situation even now. so early.
i remember the better candidates dropping like flies in the last election as the msm foisted mccain on us. and then did everything to disparage him.
we can not let this happen again. we must weed out the unelectable candidates
our selves.
fck the msm.

we need a t-shirt. FTMFMSM

141 jaunte  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:34:16am

re: #133 MandyManners

I still don't know what he said.

I think the problem is that he has absorbed a specious argument, but still doesn't have a very good grasp of it.

142 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:34:40am

"My take: the MSM and the left would love it if Jindal is the GOP nominee in 2012, because he will lose. So they’re going to ignore all the damaging issues until then, preemptively sabotaging any effort to find a more viable GOP candidate."

Yes, I could not agree more. There is a certain lemming like quality to the Republicans that says, "since this worked horribly before, lets do it to a stronger degree and surely we can't fail."

The thing that bothers me more though is that I really can't vote for people who don't respect the Establishment Clause of the Constitution. Even as someone who has no particular love of the Dems, I have to say wait a minute, this guy is challenging my core values as an American.

Then there is the part of me that says, wait a minute, the President needs to be able to make decisions about technological matters. If he is too stupid and too dogmatic to get evolution, he is the type that if he is sold a bill of goods, BY GOD he will follow that bill of goods no matter what amount of reason is placed in front of him.

Then there's the part of me that would fight and die for the notion that all men are created equal. Jindal hangs out with a bunch of people who very much believe that some people are more equal than others. Actually come to think of it, if you think you have the right to impose your dogma on others you think that too, but I was referring more to the racists that Jindal has hung out with.

Imagine someone like Dawkins getting a chance to debate Jindal. Believe it or don't our friends and allies around the world need to be able to respect our President. Please don't kid yourself that our hand will not be weakened at the negotiating table if he is president - simply because of all the snickering that other more educated leaders would do.

NO, end of the day, I'll say it because it is a damn elephant in the room, If the GOP runs Jindal, I will not vote GOP.

143 DistantThunder  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:34:51am

Last night Mr DT and I were in Princeton, NJ. Incidentally, the restraunts were full to overflowing everywhere we walked. We noticed a closed Army/Navy surplus store across the street. Mr DT says:

"This I've gotta see, in Princeton, NJ."
We were not "disappointed."

Shirts with peace signs in the front window along with shirts with Che's picture, and one shirt with a BIG
RED STAR.

All accompanied with camo pants...

Of course.

144 Cathypop  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:34:53am

re: #132 HoosierHoops

mmmm..didn't they win the big east game of the week yesterday? Against Providence? I don't follow ND at all..so I plead ignorance...
I've said this before..If Stanford ever wins the national championship I'm duct taping tree limbs to my body and running down the street naked..
/I'm not too worried about having to really have to do it..


Saving this so that if Stanford wins I want pictures. LOL

145 reine.de.tout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:35:09am

re: #129 MandyManners

I wonder if it's due to the recovery efforts.

Could be, at least partly.

146 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:35:16am

re: #138 MandyManners
Bwahahaha!

147 transient  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:35:18am

re: #115 Charles

Whether you think about your bedroom and how messy it gets over time or you think about the decay in the building itself over time. Things don't naturally order themselves towards progression*. Uuummm.. in the natural order of things. So, it's in fact, it's against fairly basic laws of physics* and so I would not have a problem in teaching both * Uh, you saying this is one theory and this is another theory.

I really, really wish politicians would not talk about science when they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Politicians are perhaps used to "winging it" on all sorts of topics, but it won't fly with science.

148 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:35:19am

re: #49 dapperdave

In 2008 it was Obama vs. McCain, I voted for McCain
I would rather have McCain, Huckabee, Romney or any Republican sitting in the White House then this B.O. socialist crap any day of the week.
Yes the lesser of two evils is still evil but when it comes to a choice I would gladly have a small government free market conservative then a leftwing demoncrat.

McCain wasn't my guy in the primaries, but your post provides and excellent illustration of the damage that loud mouthed talk radio people have done to the GOP, IMHO.

What about John McCain is evil?

149 bellamags  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:36:14am

re: #143 DistantThunder

Last night Mr DT and I were in Princeton, NJ. Incidentally, the restraunts were full to overflowing everywhere we walked. We noticed a closed Army/Navy surplus store across the street. Mr DT says:

"This I've gotta see, in Princeton, NJ."
We were not "disappointed."

Shirts with peace signs in the front window along with shirts with Che's picture, and one shirt with a BIG
RED STAR.

All accompanied with camo pants...

Of course.

If there were a hundred people on the street with you, I would guess only 1 other person would even know the implications.

150 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:36:35am

re: #132 HoosierHoops

mmmm..didn't they win the big east game of the week yesterday? Against Providence? I don't follow ND at all..so I plead ignorance...
I've said this before..If Stanford ever wins the national championship I'm duct taping tree limbs to my body and running down the street naked..
/I'm not too worried about having to really have to do it..

Fair enough. I was just interested cause you know basketball.
Ignore my 139. I have to tell you though that the Stanford dancing tree is a little weird.

151 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:36:36am

re: #139 opnion

Hoops did you see my #94 to you?

#132 friend..

152 reine.de.tout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:37:00am

re: #141 jaunte

I think the problem is that he has absorbed a specious argument, but still doesn't have a very good grasp of it.

What a great description!
I can think of any number of folks this would apply to.
Think I'm gonna have to steal that one . . .

153 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:37:09am

re: #148 funky chicken
Pssst....He consorts with donks! Lotsa sarcasm there folks.

154 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:37:09am

Is Yossi Dayan kin to Moshe Dayan?

155 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:37:43am

re: #141 jaunte

I think the problem is that he has absorbed a specious argument, but still doesn't have a very good grasp of it.

Maybe that's because it's specious in the first place.

156 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:38:31am

re: #150 opnion

Fair enough. I was just interested cause you know basketball.
Ignore my 139. I have to tell you though that the Stanford dancing tree is a little weird.

LOL you can do better than that..my friends tease me mercilessly about the dancing tree...But it fits..You are on the Farm at Stanford..:)

157 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:39:01am

re: #155 MandyManners

specious, species, ....OMG Darwin strikes!

158 jaunte  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:39:02am

re: #155 MandyManners

Maybe that's because it's specious in the first place.

You have to have a rare talent for gibberish to put the argument across fluently.

159 DistantThunder  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:39:06am

re: #147 transient

I really, really wish politicians would not talk about science when they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Politicians are perhaps used to "winging it" on all sorts of topics, but it won't fly with science.

Michael Steele needs to have a come to sceince meeting with all republican leaders and agree on an official position.

160 Perplexed  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:39:12am

re: #134 nyc redneck

when the time is right, the msm will attack jindal w/ a vengeance.
he will be blind sided like mccain was. it is disgusting to think how they are orchestrating the situation even now. so early.
i remember the better candidates dropping like flies in the last election as the msm foisted mccain on us. and then did everything to disparage him.
we can not let this happen again. we must weed out the unelectable candidates
our selves.
fck the msm.

Some of that may have already started. Heard of the Bill Moyers scandal? Seems during the LBJ administration Moyers was involved in outing people. Some of the presstitutes may be on their way out.

161 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:39:22am

re: #120 Charles

Yep.


About Avigdor,

Yes he is. Also, did you see the Dinosaur part of the Hammer last night?

162 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:40:00am

re: #158 jaunte

"I'm glad all these kids are here to hear that true piece of frontier gibberish"

163 transient  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:40:10am

re: #137 MandyManners

Which is...?

2nd Law of Thermodynamics:

"The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease." Entropy is an indication of unusable energy and often (but not always!) corresponds to intuitive notions of disorder or randomness. Creationists thus misinterpret the 2nd law to say that things invariably progress from order to disorder.

However, they neglect the fact that life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things.
If a mature tomato plant can have more usable energy than the seed it grew from, why should anyone expect that the next generation of tomatoes can't have more usable energy still? Creationists sometimes try to get around this by claiming that the information carried by living things lets them create order. However, not only is life irrelevant to the 2nd law, but order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too. Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature; none require an intelligent program to achieve that order. In any nontrivial system with lots of energy flowing through it, you are almost certain to find order arising somewhere in the system. If order from disorder is supposed to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, why is it ubiquitous in nature?

164 freedombilly  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:40:40am

re: #159 DistantThunder

Michael Steele needs to have a come to sceince meeting with all republican leaders and agree on an official position.

Steele might be the only hope that we have of the Republican Party not being completely hijacked by people like this tool. I just fear that it might be too late.

165 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:40:44am

re: #145 reine.de.tout

Could be, at least partly.

I got that idea from the growth in jobs in trade, transportation and utilities. Of course, that could mean nothing but I was just wondering.

166 Perplexed  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:40:55am

re: #137 MandyManners

Which is...?

In simple terms, the second law is an expression of the fact that over time, ignoring the effects of self-gravity, differences in temperature, pressure, and density tend to even out in a physical system that is isolated from the outside world. Entropy is a measure of how far along this evening-out process has progressed.

There are many versions of the second law, but they all have the same effect, which is to explain the phenomenon of irreversibility in nature.

167 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:41:21am

Oh hell. Sanford too? shaking head

So, I'm back to my original position.....HOPE for a resurgence of sane democrats.

If Obama is really a disaster, I see a chance for somebody like Jim Marshall of Georgia to take the party in a different (non-ANSWER) direction?

168 chicago blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:41:27am

re: #143 DistantThunder


re: #149 bellamags

Hey guys. I get it.
Maybe I should get a good Reagan shirt to wear with cammo pants...

169 reggie  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:41:48am

re: #147 transient

I really, really wish politicians would not talk about science when they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Politicians are perhaps used to "winging it" on all sorts of topics, but it won't fly with science.

That is my sentiment, exactly, when they try to speak about (and tinker with) the economy. Their economic "abilities" boil down to two elements: rear-view mirror driving, and effects on certain constituents.

170 DistantThunder  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:41:59am

re: #163 transient

We had a discussion about whether or not you reap exactly what you sow - of course not, other wise you'd be harvesting seeds.

171 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:42:27am

Allah Pundit's take (on Jindal's "no" to porkulus)

172 burntjohn  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:43:05am

In yesterdays Jindal thread I said that creationism and global warming shared one distinction. Both are born of junk science and propaganda.
BEWARE of a merger of the two.
There are those who preach the "Green Gospel"
Global warming is a crises created by the sins of man and all Gods children have a moral duty to correct.

Now add the apocalyptic kooks who believe the only way to save the planet is to drastically reduce the human population.

173 bellamags  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:43:12am

re: #168 chicago blonde

re: #149 bellamags

Hey guys. I get it.
Maybe I should get a good Reagan shirt to wear with cammo pants...

that would be good. or a "Che's dead" t-shirt.

174 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:43:25am

re: #115 Charles

damn, damn, damn

So, Sanford should stay in South Carolina then. He's doing a good job for his state.

damn

175 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:43:43am

re: #163 transient

Whooooooooosh, right over my head.

176 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:44:20am

re: #159 DistantThunder

Michael Steele needs to have a come to sceince meeting with all republican leaders and agree on an official position.

What does Steele believe? I've looked but found nothing.

177 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:45:06am

re: #173 bellamags
I have one with a picture of che' with the red circle and slash. It says "Commies aren't cool".

178 bellamags  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:45:38am

re: #177 pingjockey

I have one with a picture of che' with the red circle and slash. It says "Commies aren't cool".

LOL sweet.

179 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:45:48am

re: #166 Perplexed

That made more sense. Thank you.

180 callahan23  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:46:00am

re: #172 burntjohn

In yesterdays Jindal thread I said that creationism and global warming shared one distinction. Both are born of junk science and propaganda.
BEWARE of a merger of the two.
There are those who preach the "Green Gospel"
Global warming is a crises created by the sins of man and all Gods children have a moral duty to correct.

Now add the apocalyptic kooks who believe the only way to save the planet is to drastically reduce the human population.

Oft regurgitated mantra of the greens here in the EU.
Yuck!

181 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:46:09am

re: #178 bellamags
IIRC try "those shirts.com"

182 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:46:20am

re: #172 burntjohn

In yesterdays Jindal thread I said that creationism and global warming shared one distinction. Both are born of junk science and propaganda.
BEWARE of a merger of the two.
There are those who preach the "Green Gospel"
Global warming is a crises created by the sins of man and all Gods children have a moral duty to correct.

Now add the apocalyptic kooks who believe the only way to save the planet is to drastically reduce the human population.

I could be wrong but, I don't see the right wing merging with the left wing over GW.

183 chicago blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:46:22am

re: #173 bellamags

Heh. Seen the one with Che wearing a dollar sign on the beret and the slogan "this shirt brought to you by capitalism?"

184 transient  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:46:29am

re: #170 DistantThunder

We had a discussion about whether or not you reap exactly what you sow - of course not, other wise you'd be harvesting seeds.

LOL...good one!

185 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:46:45am

All hail Chairman Meow.

186 bellamags  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:46:50am

re: #181 pingjockey

IIRC try "those shirts.com"

thats it.

187 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:47:53am

re: #172 burntjohn

In yesterdays Jindal thread I said that creationism and global warming shared one distinction. Both are born of junk science and propaganda.
BEWARE of a merger of the two.
There are those who preach the "Green Gospel"
Global warming is a crises created by the sins of man and all Gods children have a moral duty to correct.

Now add the apocalyptic kooks who believe the only way to save the planet is to drastically reduce the human population.

That's ridiculous. There are reasons to be skeptical about anthropogenic climate change, but comparing it to creationism is beyond absurd.

188 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:47:59am

re: #185 Killgore Trout

All hail Chairman Meow.

Oh, I love it!

189 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:48:15am

re: #153 pingjockey

:-) I got nothin'

190 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:48:20am

re: #183 chicago blonde
Yep. That's a good one too.

191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:48:43am

Dad turned 75 yesterday. Today's the big bash. See y'all in the mornin' hopein!

192 bellamags  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:48:47am

re: #183 chicago blonde

Heh. Seen the one with Che wearing a dollar sign on the beret and the slogan "this shirt brought to you by capitalism?"

oooooooo heres one that says "communism killed 100 million people and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" LOL

193 burntjohn  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:48:54am

re: #149 bellamags

You can go to Disney Epcot and buy T-shirts with Mao Tse-tung. on the front.

194 chicago blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:48:55am

re: #181 pingjockey

Thank you!

I'm taking a break from housework and a brief foray into Lizarddom as a reward - I can just see the press running exorcism blurbs about Jindal 24/7 if he gets on the 2012 ticket. They'd probably set up CNN2 just for the occasion...

195 reggie  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:48:55am

re: #158 jaunte

You have to have a rare talent for gibberish to put the argument across fluently.


Beautiful.

196 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:49:01am

re: #187 Charles

That's ridiculous. There are reasons to be skeptical about anthropogenic climate change, but comparing it to creationism is beyond absurd.

Isn't that a tactic of creationists?

197 bellamags  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:49:31am

HA - "I just neutered the cat, now he's a liberal" LOL

198 formercorpsman  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:49:40am

re: #194 chicago blonde

Without a doubt.

199 Perplexed  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:49:53am

re: #176 MandyManners

What does Steele believe? I've looked but found nothing.

He may be keeping his mouth shut over this sort of thing as he wants to get some work done on resurrecting his party.

200 chicago blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:49:56am

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

((FBV))

Happy birthday to your dad!

201 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:50:06am

re: #187 Charles

That's ridiculous. There are reasons to be skeptical about anthropogenic climate change, but comparing it to creationism is beyond absurd.

Thank you Charles.

202 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:50:13am

re: #189 funky chicken
I don't know what some of the 'conservative' pundits were thinking about McCain. Obambi is better?

203 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:50:29am

re: #188 MandyManners

I suspect it's an old one but it showed up on Digg this morning. Very cute in a socialist sorta way.

204 chicago blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:50:40am

re: #192 bellamags

So many shirts, so little time and disposable income.

205 cronus  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:50:40am

re: #115 Charles

Having watched Sanford for a while I'm somewhat convinced he's likely a true believer thus his regurgitation of silly creationist talking points. However having also followed Jindal, I'm convinced he knows exactly what it was he signed which frustrates me even more. Sanford is just clueless. Jindal chose short-term political expediency over the truth.

206 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:51:19am

re: #194 chicago blonde
All Jindal bashing all the time.

207 SixDegrees  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:51:46am
the MSM and the left would love it if Jindal is the GOP nominee in 2012, because he will lose.

I can only agree. If he runs, look forward to Comedy Central resurrecting the "Mystery Science Theatre 3000" format so they can run "The Exorcist" overlaid with GOP-bashing commentary. Over and over and over again.

And as we move closer and closer to completely nationalized primary education, putting a Creationist in charge is just too chilling for words. Far beyond simply sitting such a choice out, I would find myself forced to vote for the opposition to keep such a troglodyte out of office. Conservatism is worthwhile and all, but I have my limits, and teaching religion in the public schools in place of science is way over that line.

Better to direct our energies toward reforming the Democrats, whose recently elected members are often far more conservative than the Republicans they've replaced, and getting them to embrace core Conservative values like limited government, prudent spending and the worth of the individual.

With the GOP floundering, latching onto the tiny, shrill minority of the religious right for support, and looking more and more like a fundamentalist Christian version of the Taliban with every passing week, it may be that the Democrats are, perversely, the only remaining hope for Conservatism. A GOP latched onto the teat of religious fundamentalism is a party consigned to meaningless minority status, with no hope of even contributing to someone else's agenda.

208 VioletTiger  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:51:48am

I completely agree--the MSM is still trying to pick candidates for us.

I am hoping a true Reagan conservative rises over the next couple years.
In the meantime, for this year, I am concentrating on supporting a conservative gov. for NJ. There are a couple of decent candidates in the mix already, and Corrine is beatable.

209 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:51:48am

re: #197 bellamags

HA - "I just neutered the cat, now he's a liberal" LOL

Reminds me of this...

210 transient  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:52:13am

re: #175 MandyManners

Whooooooooosh, right over my head.


LOL...sorry. Perplexed got it. Here's another version, hopefully even simpler:

Creationists misinterpret the 2nd law to mean only that "things tend towards disorder." Like your kid's bedroom. They ignore the fact that the 2nd law actually says that "things tend towards disorder if there is no external energy source." If there IS an external energy source (like kid putting in elbow grease to clean up room, or The Sun), then order/complexity can be, and obviously is, increased.

211 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:52:40am

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Happy B-day to your dad. Mine turns 74 this year.

212 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:52:40am

re: #167 funky chicken

Oh hell. Sanford too? shaking head

This is exactly what I've been trying to point out -- there are almost NO GOP politicians who don't toe the extreme religious right line on creationism, or at least, the Discovery Institute's deceptions.

It's a major problem for the Republican Party. They're perceived as anti-science because a majority ARE anti-science.

213 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:52:54am

re: #163 transient

Excellent post on Thermo! I was about to type one myself. One of the other things that gets me about that argument is the bald faced chutzpah of those who make it.

If you are a scientis and someone says something about the second law and neglects that it applies to a closed system, it has shown that they are using an argument they do not understand at all - even at the most basic level. It's like someone making a mathematical argument boldly that 2+2=17 so therefore evolution can't happen.

My point here is about gross intellectual dishonesty.

These people have proven that they don't know what entropy is by making the statement they did, and they are arguing away, knowing full well that they don't know what they are talking about.

Seriously, what is entropy?

If your answer does not involve partial derivatives of a partition function and/or an appeal to Shannon's Law, you do not know. If you your answer doesn't include the notion of an ensemble, you do not know. If you misquote the Second law, you do not know. If you can wave your hands a little about disorder in a system, you remember something from non-major science class, but you also know that you couldn't calculate anything about entropy and probably have the sense to defer to people who can.

These people are too stupid and brazen to even care that they have no clue what they are saying. They just want to win whether or not they are making true statements.

214 burntjohn  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:52:59am

re: #182 MandyManners

It is extremism on the right and left that could tear the country apart.
Much like it did in Germany.
Just seem to see similarities of the two.

215 bellamags  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:53:13am

re: #209 goddessoftheclassroom

Reminds me of this...

O frikin hilarious. LOL

216 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:53:14am

re: #209 goddessoftheclassroom

Reminds me of this...

LOLOLOL
He looks Fabulous!

217 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:54:00am

re: #210 transient
Very good analogy. That is concise enough and easy to understand.

218 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:54:03am

re: #187 Charles

Oh, I think they are very similar. They are both faith-based silly pseudoscience. The AGW folks just had the advantage of having their silly faith-based psuedoscience align with the bias of the media-entertainment complex, and they have been at it since the 60s.

I think the creationists have studied the enviro movement very carefully, and I think it's easy to spot that they are copying the strategies that have proven successful for the enviro/academic left.

219 chicago blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:54:11am

re: #206 pingjockey

Oh you KNOW they would. Regardless of what you think of Palin, there was a "feminist" blog I looked at (before I ran away screaming) - most of the arguments against her devolved into "and she's too pretty! She still thinks she's a prom queen! Wahhhh!" If her head is right I don't care if they have a crown or bag over it myself.

Jindal doing an exorcism? We'd never hear the end of it.

220 burntjohn  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:54:36am

re: #199 Perplexed

Steele is not a registered Republican and has strong Libertarian leanings.
Thats a good thing and the direction the GOP should be going.

221 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:55:23am

re: #209 goddessoftheclassroom
That is a riot!

222 Perplexed  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:55:31am

re: #210 transient

So whatcha working on?
A reverse entropy machine.
Whatsit do?
It makes a frying pan hot.
That all? Cain't ya do that with a stove?
Its a something for nothing machine.
Oh, so you're making something that liberals understand, eh?

223 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:55:37am

re: #205 cronus

Having watched Sanford for a while I'm somewhat convinced he's likely a true believer thus his regurgitation of silly creationist talking points. However having also followed Jindal, I'm convinced he knows exactly what it was he signed which frustrates me even more. Sanford is just clueless. Jindal chose short-term political expediency over the truth.

I've been wondering about that, but I see too many ties to the luddite / stasist / neo-confederacy branches of the Republican party to completely agree. I need to see more - is he just a standard populist pandering to the base he needs at the moment ala Obama, or is he a true believer? The excorcist incident lends credence to the latter.

224 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:56:37am

Oh man , T Boone is on FNC still schilling wind farms.

225 yma o hyd  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:56:43am

Here's an interesting idea from Jeb Bush:
Jeb Bush borrows from UK to take on president:

Couple of quotes:
'Faced with the prospect of trying to counter Barack Obama’s rock-star-like appeal, Republicans should opt for a British-style shadow cabinet to engage the new Democratic team as it struggles with measures to mend America’s economy, Bush declared last week.'

'“We are well positioned to go on [the] offensive,” Bush said. “But a respectful opposition is important. Republicans lose when it gets into a big food fight.” Bush believes the British model of shadow ministers offering a running critique of government policies may prove the best way of “providing solid policy alternatives” without putting off voters by seeming too hostile to Obama.'

Whaddaya think of that?

226 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:56:54am

re: #218 funky chicken

Oh, I think they are very similar. They are both faith-based silly pseudoscience.

I disagree strongly. Science does not work that way. There's very little doubt that the climate IS changing; it's been extensively documented, by scientists in many fields, all over the world. The only real debate is whether this change is caused by human behavior. But it is not pseudo-science.

227 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:57:01am

re: #151 HoosierHoops

#132 friend..

Got it.

228 screaming_eagle  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:57:24am

re: #224 opnion

Oh man , T Boone is on FNC still schilling wind farms.

Cuz the One wants to fund them

229 debutaunt  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:57:32am

re: #220 burntjohn

Steele is not a registered Republican and has strong Libertarian leanings.
Thats a good thing and the direction the GOP should be going.

Which Libertarian leaning does he promote?

230 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:58:19am

re: #228 screaming_eagle

Cuz the One wants to fund them

it's stimulating doncha know.

231 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:58:29am

re: #228 screaming_eagle
Another billionaire with his hand out!

232 screaming_eagle  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:58:54am

re: #230 opnion

it's stimulating doncha know.

And profitably for Dems and their donors.

233 SixDegrees  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:59:00am

re: #129 MandyManners

I wonder if it's due to the recovery efforts.

It could just as well be due to the fact that so many...uh, let's call them "lackluster producers"...left after the hurricane, and simply went on the dole in other states. Or simply that Louisiana was already scraping bottom when the current economic woes hit, and didn't have as far to fall.

234 Abu Kuffar  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:59:01am

re: #226 Charles

My thoughts exactly

235 yma o hyd  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:59:20am

re: #213 LudwigVanQuixote


... ... ...

These people are too stupid and brazen to even care that they have no clue what they are saying. They just want to win whether or not they are making true statements.


Professional politicians - of all sides and every nation - in a nutshell!

236 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:59:22am

re: #212 Charles

This is exactly what I've been trying to point out -- there are almost NO GOP politicians who don't toe the extreme religious right line on creationism, or at least, the Discovery Institute's deceptions.

It's a major problem for the Republican Party. They're perceived as anti-science because a majority ARE anti-science.

What is your remedy?

237 Perplexed  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:59:38am

re: #226 Charles

Charles, the pseudo science enters in when folks who should know better, cook the numbers, falsify reports, and in general behave badly because the results aren't what they wanted them to be.

238 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:59:39am

re: #226 Charles

I disagree strongly. Science does not work that way. There's very little doubt that the climate IS changing; it's been extensively documented, by scientists in many fields, all over the world. The only real debate is whether this change is caused by human behavior. But it is not pseudo-science.

Good for you!

239 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:59:41am

re: #209 goddessoftheclassroom

Reminds me of this...

Oh , that's funny!

240 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:59:50am

re: #202 pingjockey

I don't know what some of the 'conservative' pundits were thinking about McCain. Obambi is better?

A fair number of them actually did believe that. I heard a fair number of them present the "we have to defeat McCain so True Conservatives can rise again" argument (and that viewpoint is quite popular over at HotAir still). Then there were the deluded folks like Jennifer Rubin and a couple of others who spent Nov-Jan penning occasional articles discussing how conservatives would be happier with Obama's administration than they would have been with McCain's.

Hey, only if those conservatives don't care about abortion, energy policy, judicial nominations, national security, the military, and fiscal policies.

um?

241 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:00:19am

re: #224 opnion

Oh man , T Boone is on FNC still schilling wind farms.

I don't mind that, we are going to need them. We are still only 0.7 on the Kardashev scale, and that's just not going to work in the second half of this century.

242 Sean  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:00:21am

The MSM has been trying to pick the GOP nominee since 1996.
Remember Bob Dole? Good man. Great servant of the USA. Not a vibrant Presidential candidate. Throw in a half-hearted campaign by Ross Perot and we get Bill Clinton pt2.

In 2000 they thought that G. W. Bush would be beaten by Gore.

In 2008 they picked McCain.

We need to get back to picking a candidate in the convention not in a nearly year-long series of primaries.

243 transient  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:00:23am

re: #213 LudwigVanQuixote

The "2nd Law argument" against evolution has been refuted so many times you would think the creationists would have learned already, and struck it from the repertoire. But they continue to use it, perhaps because it is apparently convincing to many who want to be convinced, and/or those who have had little science education (or forgot what they learned). Sadly, this is now a large proportion of the population.

The hard-core creationists must know themselves that the thermo argument is false. Intellectual dishonesty indeed.

The explanation/quote I posted/linked was from Talk Origins (www.talkorigins.org), which has extensive FAQs refuting all the common creationist arguments.

244 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:00:59am

re: #235 yma o hyd

Professional politicians - of all sides and every nation - in a nutshell!

lol that's so so true... But at least with science, you can come to a conclusion that educated people can not refute. Politics can be debated forever.

245 VioletTiger  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:01:13am

re: #209 goddessoftheclassroom

Reminds me of this...


I'm calling PETA!
//

246 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:01:42am

re: #232 screaming_eagle

And profitably for Dems and their donors.

Which of course has nothig to do with it. They are idealists & just want the wind farms for the poor to see something cool.

247 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:01:51am

For those of you who get your global warming info from Rush Limbaugh: Please re-consider. Rush is a great entertainer and is generally right when it comes to fiscal policy - but he's clueless about the environment.

248 burntjohn  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:02:18am

re: #187 Charles

Climate change is real, it's been going on for billions of years.
Those who blame it on the sins of man or evil corporations are kooks.
Those who preach that Adam and Eve danced with dinosaurs are also kooks.
Merge all of these ideas together and tell me where we are going.

249 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:02:33am

re: #240 funky chicken
They don't. They(or some) are hell bent on ideological purity and it seems as if more and more are toeing the line of creationism and other poison pill positions that I as a fiscal, small gov't conservative find incompatible.

250 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:02:57am

re: #237 Perplexed

Charles, the pseudo science enters in when folks who should know better, cook the numbers, falsify reports, and in general behave badly because the results aren't what they wanted them to be.

That is not pseudo-science that is bad science. I would point out that this is the point of peer review. People who cook their numbers always get caught. The fact that you hear about rare instances of people trying anyway and then getting caught is proof of science working and all the more reason to trust peer reviewed journal articles.

251 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:03:33am

re: #237 Perplexed

Charles, the pseudo science enters in when folks who should know better, cook the numbers, falsify reports, and in general behave badly because the results aren't what they wanted them to be.

Sorry, but there is misrepresentation on BOTH sides of the debate, and I've been researching this quite a bit. The website of James Inhofe is a prime example -- it's absolutely full of distortions and falsehoods.

252 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:04:06am

re: #241 Thanos

I don't mind that, we are going to need them. We are still only 0.7 on the Kardashev scale, and that's just not going to work in the second half of this century.

He would have more credibility , if he didn't have skin in the game.
I am all for wind farms, solar, wave power, oil & nuclear etc.
I just think that T. Boone is suspect

253 SixDegrees  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:04:26am

re: #225 yma o hyd

Here's an interesting idea from Jeb Bush:
Jeb Bush borrows from UK to take on president:

Couple of quotes:
'Faced with the prospect of trying to counter Barack Obama’s rock-star-like appeal, Republicans should opt for a British-style shadow cabinet to engage the new Democratic team as it struggles with measures to mend America’s economy, Bush declared last week.'

'“We are well positioned to go on [the] offensive,” Bush said. “But a respectful opposition is important. Republicans lose when it gets into a big food fight.” Bush believes the British model of shadow ministers offering a running critique of government policies may prove the best way of “providing solid policy alternatives” without putting off voters by seeming too hostile to Obama.'

Whaddaya think of that?

Sounds like a plan. It's been used here in the past, under the name of "The Loyal Opposition."

Unfortunately, it requires leadership to pull it off, something the GOP is currently lacking. Meanwhile, though, the party would be well advised to heed the "respectful" part, and not come across as whining and pouting.

254 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:05:05am

Latre gators.

255 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:05:48am

re: #236 FrogMarch

What is your remedy?

The only possible remedy is for real conservatives who want America to have the best science and science education to speak out against this creationist garbage -- LOUDLY.

I know. Good luck with that.

256 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:06:05am

re: #253 SixDegrees
Spot on. Well thought out, coherent rebuttals. Not whinning and moaning.

257 Perplexed  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:06:30am

re: #250 LudwigVanQuixote

That works with the independently peer reviewed research, but when the liars go directly to publication bypassing any review and the media picks up on it (cold fusion anyone?), then you have a very ugly train wreck on your hands.

258 ladycatnip  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:06:37am

#182 Mandy Manners

I could be wrong but, I don't see the right wing merging with the left wing over GW.

Did you see that global warming commercial with Pat Robertson and Al Sharpton? There's two extremes of right and left. I just about fell out of my chair when I saw that.

259 burntjohn  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:07:19am

re: #229 debutaunt

Not all the right ones.
This is only from what I read up on the guy from the net. That in of itself makes it suspect.
I wrote the guy a letter, never received a response, no shock there.
The guy has a big job ahead of him trying to deal with the go along, get alongs, RINO's , biblethumpers and moderates.

260 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:07:19am

re: #255 Charles
You do what you can do Charles, and you do 4.0 work.

261 yma o hyd  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:07:21am

re: #244 LudwigVanQuixote

lol that's so so true... But at least with science, you can come to a conclusion that educated people can not refute. Politics can be debated forever.

Indeed - and indeed!
Thats one reason why politicians here are also known as 'windbags'.

I was going to say that hard-headed, successful business people also come to evidence-based conclusions - but the last big Ponzi schemes have shown that even they, alas, can overlook evidence when the alternative feeds their greed and is well presented ...

262 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:07:38am

re: #248 burntjohn

Climate change is real, it's been going on for billions of years.
Those who blame it on the sins of man or evil corporations are kooks.
Those who preach that Adam and Eve danced with dinosaurs are also kooks.
Merge all of these ideas together and tell me where we are going.

When you compare the science of climate change to the pseudo-science of creationism, it's you who looks like a kook.

263 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:07:46am

re: #226 Charles

I disagree strongly. Science does not work that way. There's very little doubt that the climate IS changing; it's been extensively documented, by scientists in many fields, all over the world. The only real debate is whether this change is caused by human behavior. But it is not pseudo-science.

Of course the climate changes. The Vikings weren't being ironic when they named Greenland...it used to be green.

The pseudoscience comes in when they link the pollutant dujour with climate changes. And that is the entire basis of the AGW/ACC/whatever the hell they will call it next.

And computer models that will predict the climate of the earth in 50 to 100 years? But those models don't include anything about the sun's cycles? just nonsense.

I am a (retired to be a housewife/mother) scientist, and the crap that the AGW/ACC folks peddle IS NOT SCIENCE. for real....

264 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:07:48am

re: #252 opnion

He would have more credibility , if he didn't have skin in the game.
I am all for wind farms, solar, wave power, oil & nuclear etc.
I just think that T. Boone is suspect

He's not suspect, his motives are clear. He wants to make a profit - that doesn't make him evil in my books. You make a profit by providing something people want at a price they are willing to pay. Yay capitalism! If we want to get out of the low energy luddite curve we are headed into then we need all sources that are profitable online. There's no such thing as bad energy, I'm in the midst of writing an essay on that now.

265 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:08:54am

He didn't ask him. Well- to me that suggests the fix is in.

266 cronus  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:08:59am

re: #223 Thanos

I've been wondering about that, but I see too many ties to the luddite / stasist / neo-confederacy branches of the Republican party to completely agree. I need to see more - is he just a standard populist pandering to the base he needs at the moment ala Obama, or is he a true believer? The excorcist incident lends credence to the latter.

Good point. Not that education is ever a reliable indicator, but Jindal did graduate (with honors) with a degree in biology from an ivy league school. He's also a Catholic and one would think has some awareness of the Vatican's support of evolution.

267 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:09:03am

re: #255 Charles

The only possible remedy is for real conservatives who want America to have the best science and science education to speak out against this creationist garbage -- LOUDLY.

I know. Good luck with that.

It's what the minority is doing with great success in controlling the party the past few years. It's an "in your face ad hominem and lies are ok " approach. I think you know where it comes from.

268 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:09:04am

re: #255 Charles

The only possible remedy is for real conservatives who want America to have the best scientific education for its children to speak out against this creationist garbage -- LOUDLY.

I know. Good luck with that.

That's a great way to state it. This is about science education.

269 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:09:42am

re: #264 Thanos
I have no problem with private enterprise. It is my tax dollars going to fund this I have issues with. The same with Detroit.

270 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:09:54am

The fix is in- this is round two.

The msm is the enemy.

271 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:10:23am

re: #263 funky chicken

I am a (retired to be a housewife/mother) scientist, and the crap that the AGW/ACC folks peddle IS NOT SCIENCE. for real....

David Attenborough recently changed his mind on the issue of AGW. Here's a video explaining some of his reasons. This is not pseudo-science.

Youtube Video
272 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:10:25am

Or maybe that's just not the most important issue that voters will consider.
Besides , the MSM will grasp at any straw to sabotage any GOP candidate, so we might as well accept that handicap and figure out a way to win anyway.

273 Perplexed  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:10:30am

re: #268 FrogMarch

Sports gets more attention at most schools than does any science program.

274 Sean  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:10:40am

If/when a big rock/snowball is coming in for a hard landing I call dibs on strangling the nearest man-made climate change wacko before the shockwave vaporizes me!

275 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:10:43am

re: #270 Sharmuta
I think they've been the enemy since 1968.

276 burntjohn  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:11:17am

re: #252 opnion

T Boon has been right on many things except his timing.
Converting the average car to run on natural gas is brilliant.
Of course he has skin in the game with CLNE.

277 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:11:53am

re: #269 pingjockey

I have no problem with private enterprise. It is my tax dollars going to fund this I have issues with. The same with Detroit.

Hiways, education, and power infrastructure are the few areas besides Defense that I don't mind my tax dollars going to.

278 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:12:00am

Another video with Attenborough:

Youtube Video
279 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:12:00am

re: #92 funky chicken

Take a look at Jon Huntsman.

280 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:12:07am

re: #258 ladycatnip

#182 Mandy Manners

Did you see that global warming commercial with Pat Robertson and Al Sharpton? There's two extremes of right and left. I just about fell out of my chair when I saw that.

Two of my least favorite people waiting for the tide to come in. Cute.

I don't know what changed Pat's mind but I'm pretty sure he was with Jerry Falwell when he told me straight out of the TV, I kid you not, that God would not allow the earth's temperature to change by one degree; and that wasn't long before he signed out.

281 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:13:08am

re: #277 Thanos
That is okay by me too.

282 Chicago Blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:13:19am

re: #270 Sharmuta


Now that I'm "hatched" I wanted to thank you for discussing that Phyllis Chesler book "Woman's Inhumanity to Woman", I need to get that. And you are right about the MSM.

283 itellu3times  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:13:37am

re: #264 Thanos

He's not suspect, his motives are clear. He wants to make a profit - that doesn't make him evil in my books. You make a profit by providing something people want at a price they are willing to pay. Yay capitalism! If we want to get out of the low energy luddite curve we are headed into then we need all sources that are profitable online. There's no such thing as bad energy, I'm in the midst of writing an essay on that now.

But there is bad energy - that is there is bad CONSUMPTION. Burning diamonds to make a cup of tea, would be bad energy. Burning ethanol made from corn, at the price of making meat too expensive, much less tortillas - is bad energy. Burning gasoline on primitive two-stroke engines and clunker-cars, is generally bad energy consumption. Arguably incandescent bulbs are bad energy, unless you burn them only in winter when their waste heat is needed, and also considering their very cheap price compared to alternatives.

The point being that energy supply and consumption comprise a system, and must be matched.

284 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:14:21am

re: #251 Charles

And then you get people like Sean Penn **.... or one of those.... shouting ' We Got Ten Years Left', ten years ago......that is almost as wacky as the dinosaurs- were- our- pets bunch.
**not so clear on which Hollywood jerk it was, but substitute freely.

285 yma o hyd  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:14:53am

re: #253 SixDegrees

I've wondered aloud here on LGF during the election campaing last year why the GOP candidates did not have a list of candidates for their major cabinet posts. Here, these are obviously the members of the shadow cabinet. The advantage of such a system is that they get briefed by the various departments - and about a year from an election, they get the full briefing, the same as the government ministers have.
Thus they are known to the electorate (from the various debates in aprliament) - and there is virtually no transition period.

If, for example, Gordon Brown were to lose the election next Thursday - he'd have to hand in his resignation to the Queen on Friday morning and leave 10 Downing street lock stock and barrel immediately after.
Dave Cameron, after receiving his commission from the Queen an hour or so later, would move into 10 Downing Street that same evening.

286 Sean  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:15:19am

re: #284 tradewind

Ted Danson. It was more than ten years ago, too.

287 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:15:26am

re: #282 Chicago Blonde

Now that I'm "hatched" I wanted to thank you for discussing that Phyllis Chesler book "Woman's Inhumanity to Woman", I need to get that. And you are right about the MSM.

I really appreciate you letting me know about that. Thank you.

288 kynna  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:16:05am

Funny how they prop up and cover for Jindal and slam Palin every chance they get. How anyone still links these two potential candidates is beyond me. The differences are clear in how the MSM treats them.

Think about who they DON'T want on the ballot. Believe me, they aren't giving Jindal a free ride and hatin' on Palin for the country's sake.

289 Chicago Blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:16:11am

re: #284 tradewind

not so clear on which Hollywood jerk it was, but substitute freely.

Nowadays I'd almost say you could randomly close your eyes and pick.

290 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:16:28am

re: #285 yma o hyd

What? And put all those PR firms out of business? Not in this economy..../sarc/
:)

291 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:16:35am

re: #288 kynna

Funny how they prop up and cover for Jindal and slam Palin every chance they get. How anyone still links these two potential candidates is beyond me. The differences are clear in how the MSM treats them.

Think about who they DON'T want on the ballot. Believe me, they aren't giving Jindal a free ride and hatin' on Palin for the country's sake.

Sexism plays a role.

292 Sean  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:16:48am

Charles,

Have to gotten to see any of AToC? We never get an event like that in Dallas.

293 MarineMomSue  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:17:19am

re: #138 MandyManners

I've seen clearer mud.

clear as primordial slime?

294 Chicago Blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:17:55am

re: #287 Sharmuta

Oh you're welcome, thank you. I was remembering some women piling on Palin for the crime of being too pretty and I thought of that book. I'm getting a little dental work done in a while and I'm going to need some good reading material while I'm zonked out on pain killers and healing. :)

295 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:18:12am

re: #286 Sean

Ugh. That's even worse... Frobisher
So dead to me.

296 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:18:49am

re: #283 itellu3times

You are being contrary to no purpose - energy use in and of itself is not bad. Sensible Application is everything. I'm arguing for Abundant energy, you are arguing against energy misuse and waste. So your strawman is now aflame friend.

297 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:19:01am

re: #291 Sharmuta

Eethnicity, perceived or actual, plays a role as well.

298 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:19:17am

PIMF.. ethnicity

299 Sean  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:19:46am

re: #295 tradewind

I'm going to enjoy some sun and a bike ride.
Can I shill donations for my MS 150 ride sometime?

300 screaming_eagle  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:20:42am

re: #286 Sean

Ted Danson. It was more than ten years ago, too.

And let's not forget Clinton's proposed BTU tax.

301 big steve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:21:31am

re: #212 Charles

This is exactly what I've been trying to point out -- there are almost NO GOP politicians who don't toe the extreme religious right line on creationism, or at least, the Discovery Institute's deceptions.

It's a major problem for the Republican Party. They're perceived as anti-science because a majority ARE anti-science.

So are there any? That is Republicans....with a serious chance for national office....that are strongly unequivocally pro-evolution. I have a hard time thinking of any. There are the Jindal's who clearly are creationists and there are those who are either silent, of parrot the creationist "teach the controversy" then don't do anything types.

302 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:21:41am

re: #299 Sean

I think you need to ask Charles, not moi.

303 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:21:55am

re: #288 kynna

Funny how they prop up and cover for Jindal and slam Palin every chance they get. How anyone still links these two potential candidates is beyond me. The differences are clear in how the MSM treats them.

They slammed Palin because she was running for Vice President. It was important to take her out.

Bobby Jindal is not running yet.

That's the whole point of what I wrote above. And also note that in Palin's case, a lot of the charges of religious extremism and support for creationism were distorted or false.

In Jindal's case, they are TRUE.

304 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:22:08am

re: #283 itellu3times

We cannot produce and consume enough energy in this eon to make a gnats difference in what the sun throws at us.

What can be bad are the byproducts of the production of what we energy we do produce.

Perhaps that is what you meant to say?

305 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:22:18am

re: #294 Chicago Blonde

Well- I won't lie about the book. It may be difficult reading for you, as it was for me. Brought back some painful memories, but I feel it's more important we start dealing with this issue. It won't change if we ignore it., and Dr Chesler is a woman of intelligence and integrity. It's an excellent book.

306 Annar  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:23:02am

re: #72 pingjockey

I hate when they use the term 'conservative' to describe SA. They aren't conservative, they're medieval.

Actually, one can (and they do) make the case that their read on Islam is the correct one. That is why it is so hard to find 'moderate Muslims' willing to take a stand against the so-called hardliners. It is hard for such a person to argue that when Allah says 'kill' he doesn't mean it and when he says to cut off the thieves hand (Qur'an 5:38) he was just doing the metaphor thing.

307 DistantThunder  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:23:09am

re: #176 MandyManners

What does Steele believe? I've looked but found nothing.

Not sure, but he was studying to be a priest.

308 arcatan  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:24:13am

Creationism and other similar views are close to the top of my "harmless delusion" list. I realize, however, that among the creationist crowd there's often a host of additional baggage, but on it's own it's a pretty harmless idea.

309 Sean  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:24:28am

re: #300 screaming_eagle

I like the GPS-chip-in-your-car-tax proposal. The boom in back-alley hacking of the system will be a thing of beauty to watch!
After all, the bozos can't even keep vehicle inspections honest! Imagine when someone starts jamming GPS reception in the tucks for cross-counrty trips.

310 astronmr20  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:24:59am

I'm late to this thread, but I agree 100%; they are building him up to give him a pass on things they'll try to crush him on later.

They did the same to McCain.

311 astronmr20  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:25:14am

O/T;

Blast in Cairo:

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

312 Chicago Blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:25:49am

re: #305 Sharmuta

It is important. We have enough problems (and I'm sure more coming) without making more for each other, especially for superficial reasons.

I'll get the book and save it for the day after I get the stuff done. It'll be a carrot after the stick.

313 Annar  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:25:53am

re: #258 ladycatnip

#182 Mandy Manners

Did you see that global warming commercial with Pat Robertson and Al Sharpton? There's two extremes of right and left. I just about fell out of my chair when I saw that.

Next time they'll do a threesome with Harun Yahya

314 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:25:56am

re: #308 arcatan

Undermining real science in favor of pseudo-science is hardly "harmless". Just the undermining of evolutionary education in the medical field alone could cost countless lives.

315 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:26:24am

re: #306 Annar
Any lingering thoughts of moderate muslims making a difference went out the window... or maybe I should say will go out the window, perhaps they need more time?...after the Buffalo beheading. There should be/have been loud, very loud, cries of protest and ' this is not who we are', and I have not seen a lot of that. They don't seem to cair. Maybe they do, but where is the evidence? I can't believe the MSM wouldn't give them plenty of air time.

316 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:26:28am

re: #312 Chicago Blonde

Enjoy- and thank you for letting me know.

317 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:27:08am

re: #271 Charles

Oh, no sir. You already ruined Sanford for me. I'm not gonna lose that wonderful guy from those videos. NOT TODAY.

:-)

I'm a biochemist. I've said here on LGF...acid rain--real. Cuyahoga River bursting into flames because of pollution--real (!). what the Soviets did to rape the earth in Russia and Eastern Europe--real. what the Chinese are doing to rape the earth (and atmosphere)--real.

That's all science. There's a lot of environmental science that is absolutely real science, of course.

I'm not a Limbaugh acolyte who giggles that everybody should fly their private jet, and nobody should care about how much they consume, etc. I will put solar on my house as soon as I can afford it, for several reasons. I am moving somewhere that I can have the organic garden of my dreams...etc.

But telling people that atmospheric carbon dioxide causes global warming? nope. It's not at all clear that there is a causative link between the two.

I can't exactly put my finger on it, but the AGW/ACC hard core believers remind me of the folks who were running around the biochem/immunology community back in the 90s saying that they had "proof" that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. I dunno why, but they just have the same vibe for me....faith healers or something.

I also grew up in Missouri, which makes me a Show Me State girl. Show Me the data, and I'll be with them. They haven't even gotten close, which means that the science isn't settled or even persuasive that it will be settled in my lifetime.

318 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:27:52am

re: #311 astronmr20

O/T;

Blast in Cairo:

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]


This is the third fitna (Islamic Civil War) continuing in slow motion.

319 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:29:16am

beheading update


[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

320 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:29:19am

re: #306 Annar
Yep. It is hard to reconcile some of the edicts in the koran with rationality. Especially as the koran still has practioners of said edicts today, Unlike the Old Testament, IIRC we don't have any zealots of the Christian stripe advocating slavery....Then again I'm probably wrong. With over 6 billion people on the planet, thee is enough room for all sorts of lunacy.

321 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:29:43am

re: #318 Thanos
From your link:

Riot police cordoned off the area and sniffer dogs could be seen


That'll start a new war right there.

322 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:29:51am

re: #297 tradewind

What was the line? "Bros before Hos"? That's about it.

323 Chicago Blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:30:07am

re: #310 astronmr20

I agree.

324 astronmr20  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:31:08am

re: #319 albusteve

beheading update

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Wow... and it's an AP article.

325 big steve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:31:10am

re: #308 arcatan

Creationism and other similar views are close to the top of my "harmless delusion" list. I realize, however, that among the creationist crowd there's often a host of additional baggage, but on it's own it's a pretty harmless idea.

Creationism, if it is your belief and you hold it as religion, fine then pretty harmless because like all wrong ideas it eventually gets weeded out. However that is NOT what is going on. Intelligent design advocates are using this to get a shoe in the door to be able to teach religion in public schools. They are using ID/creationism because they can get some support from religious conservatives. However if this does come to pass, the the door is open. Well next lets start teaching the bible in literature classes.....how about the Song of Solomon in poetry class. Oh hey, how about biblical archeology for science classes....

326 Chicago Blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:31:45am

re: #321 tradewind

I didn't even think about that. Sniffer dogs in an area around a mosque?

327 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:32:00am

re: #273 Perplexed

Sports gets more attention at most schools than does any science program.

that's true. Science and math are not held up in our country. That's why the US is so far behind. I know! - let us throw more money at education and increase the power of the almighty teachers union!

/old democrat plan meet the new democrat plan.

or make creationism a part of science class.
/the Republican plan.

328 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:32:17am

re: #317 funky chicken

Ok Funky, does C02 reflect the range of light in the infrared scale?

329 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:32:22am

re: #319 albusteve

Yeah.
It's not a tragedy, it's an atrocity, and they oughta call it that.
It's not an honor killing.... it's a barbaric throwback.
So they might get together and condemn it? It's taking them a while to discuss the wording, maybe?
Not nearly enough. In fact, they got nothin'.

330 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:32:44am

re: #321 tradewind

Not my link, someone else's I quoted.

331 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:33:14am

re: #326 Chicago Blonde

Yep, that's a free way to a fatwa. Allahu arf, bark!

332 DistantThunder  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:33:18am

re: #255 Charles

The only possible remedy is for real conservatives who want America to have the best science and science education to speak out against this creationist garbage -- LOUDLY.

I know. Good luck with that.

We need a "world class" education system - and good luck with that.

333 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:34:23am

Oh, no sir. You already ruined Sanford for me. I'm not gonna lose that wonderful guy from those videos. NOT TODAY.

Mark Sanford?....what did I miss? thanks

334 yma o hyd  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:35:26am

re: #319 albusteve

beheading update

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

From that link:

'Marsha Freeman, director of the International Women's Rights Action Watch at the University of Minnesota, said honor killing is a cultural and not religious phenomenon. She said it's practiced in some Muslim countries but not others and is present in nations with people of other religions.
"I wouldn't go running around talking about honor killings without knowing more," Freeman said.

On Web sites and e-mail lists, many Muslims are rejecting the term.

"Calling it an honor killing, it sort of takes it out of the mainstream conversation and makes it a conversation about those people from over there from those backwards countries," said Abugideri, of the Peaceful Families Project. "In fact, in this country and in mainstream society there are many cases where domestic violence escalates to the point where a woman is killed."'

The sound you can hear is the sound of furious back-pedalling ...

335 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:35:35am

re: #329 tradewind

Yeah.
It's not a tragedy, it's an atrocity, and they oughta call it that.
It's not an honor killing.... it's a barbaric throwback.
So they might get together and condemn it? It's taking them a while to discuss the wording, maybe?
Not nearly enough. In fact, they got nothin'.

at least people are talking....everybody knows what it is, it is some improvement

336 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:35:41am

re: #319 albusteve

beheading update

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Interesting.

337 burntjohn  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:35:47am

re: #262 Charles

This country, America, just elected a marxists with a super majority of like thinking rubber stamps.
But I may be a kook.
Hmmmmm

338 DistantThunder  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:35:51am

re: #308 arcatan

Creationism and other similar views are close to the top of my "harmless delusion" list. I realize, however, that among the creationist crowd there's often a host of additional baggage, but on it's own it's a pretty harmless idea.

Are you new? Not harmless when it's obsessive adherents demand that their theory be part of the science curriculum. What about the hindu creation theory taught in science class, or islam, or zoroastran? See the problem...and where are the experiment so students can see the results?

Oh.

339 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:36:16am

Shall we make today official? The day Charles predicted that the MSM is going to give Jindal a free pass on his Creationist stances in order to help him become the 2012 R nominee. Knowing full well that as soon as Jindal gets the nod - the creationism stuff will suddenly become front and center.

340 Chicago Blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:37:17am

re: #331 tradewind

And quoting this little gem:

Officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they was not authorized to speak to the press.

I can imagine what happens if you're caught speaking out of turn there.

341 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:37:32am

re: #335 albusteve

Improvement over what?
Over cheering him on?
Just saying.

342 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:38:20am

re: #334 yma o hyd

Marsha Freeman is ignorant....but she still has her head right? so she can say those things...what a rube...anyway the story is still in the news

343 transient  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:38:21am

re: #321 tradewind

From your link:
That'll start a new war right there.


I believe they are allowed to use working dogs. Just not have them as pets.
One very small triumph of practicality over custom/hadith.

344 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:38:26am

re: #337 burntjohn

They did that because they thought our like thinking rubber stamps were worse. Think on that.

345 VioletTiger  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:38:32am

re: #334 yma o hyd
The thing that is just driving me nuts is how they seem to feel they need to distiquish an honor killing from murder. They are both the same. They can sort out the motives in the courtroom. Just call it what it its - murder.

346 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:39:22am

re: #334 yma o hyd

Yes. They're saying ' other dudes beat their wives and sometimes they die, what's the deal'?

347 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:39:27am

BBIAB, laundry duty!

348 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:39:32am

re: #324 astronmr20

Wow... and it's an AP article.

"Muslims don't want to talk about this for good reason," said Saleemah Abdul-Ghafur, a Muslim author and activist. "There is so much negativity about Muslims, and it sort of perpetuates it. The right wing is going to run with it and misuse it. But we've got to shine a light on this issue so we can transform it."

Ignore, Blame, Lie. It's the muslim way.

349 Bloodnok  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:39:57am

re: #337 burntjohn

I'm beginning to think that there's no "may" about it.

350 walter l. newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:40:11am

re: #308 arcatan

Creationism and other similar views are close to the top of my "harmless delusion" list. I realize, however, that among the creationist crowd there's often a host of additional baggage, but on it's own it's a pretty harmless idea.

"Great E-Bayer, prompt & courteous: A++++++ but lacks any critical thinking skills what so ever!"

351 Annar  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:40:11am

re: #320 pingjockey

Yep. It is hard to reconcile some of the edicts in the koran with rationality. Especially as the koran still has practioners of said edicts today, Unlike the Old Testament, IIRC we don't have any zealots of the Christian stripe advocating slavery....Then again I'm probably wrong. With over 6 billion people on the planet, thee is enough room for all sorts of lunacy.

The important observation is that today more than 90% of the world's conflicts involve Islam and it seems that only Islam, not other faiths agnostics or atheists, is calling for conquest and domination in the name of their beliefs.

352 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:40:46am

re: #341 tradewind

Improvement over what?
Over cheering him on?
Just saying.

improvement over dead silence...for example Marsha Freeman should be made to explain her remarks further

353 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:41:16am

re: #348 VegasRick

But we've got to shine a light on this issue so we can transform spin it."


What he really meant.

354 DEZes  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:41:41am

"Muslims don't want to talk about this for good reason," said Saleemah Abdul-Ghafur, a Muslim author and activist. "There is so much negativity about Muslims, and it sort of perpetuates it. The right wing is going to run with it and misuse it. But we've got to shine a light on this issue so we can transform it."

I am not quite sure what he means by transform it, maybe a fellow Lizard or two can shed some light on that for me.
However, if I discus it at all, he has called me a bigot upfront.
*spits*

355 VioletTiger  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:41:52am

re: #347 pingjockey

BBIAB, laundry duty!

Me too.
Hey, cozy fire and glass o'wine awaits.
Have a lovely day lizards.

356 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:42:17am

re: #351 Annar

The important observation is that today more than 90% of the world's conflicts involve Islam and it seems that only Islam, not other faiths agnostics or atheists, is calling for conquest and domination in the name of their beliefs.

Live and let live is not something they can understand. When we realize that we will be better off.

357 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:42:22am

re: #345 VioletTiger

The thing that is just driving me nuts is how they seem to feel they need to distiquish an honor killing from murder. They are both the same. They can sort out the motives in the courtroom. Just call it what it its - murder.

mincing words by the Hair Splitters is how expression is made these days...

358 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:43:08am

re: #356 VegasRick

Who's gonna tell BHO?

359 Chicago Blonde  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:43:35am

I can hear the dishes in the sink trying to sprout new life forms.

Be Back Later.

360 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:43:50am

re: #358 tradewind

Who's gonna tell BHO?

Prolly his imam.

361 DEZes  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:44:40am

re: #353 tradewind

What he really meant.


You answered before I finished typing the question.
*Looks over shoulder*
;}

362 walter l. newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:45:11am

re: #359 Chicago Blonde

I can hear the dishes in the sink trying to sprout new life forms. Be Back Later.

You have no proof of any transitional life forms in your sink. It's just a theory.
/

363 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:45:31am

So it comes down to supporting a "democrat" party that isn't anything close to the ideals of "classical liberalism". The modern democrat party - the Congressman Jerry McNerney (D-Pleasanton) 90% tax rate party - the socialism /combination fascism party. The Obama as religious figure party.
VS.
The Republicans who can't stop themselves from forcing their religious views on others.

364 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:45:52am

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

What could possibly go wrong?

365 itellu3times  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:47:24am

re: #296 Thanos

You are being contrary to no purpose - energy use in and of itself is not bad. Sensible Application is everything. I'm arguing for Abundant energy, you are arguing against energy misuse and waste. So your strawman is now aflame friend.

Ethanal, Thanos, you don't see the point there?

366 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:47:50am

re: #364 VegasRick

Farmer Jones hires Fox Security to guard henhouse.

367 katemaclaren  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:48:09am

re: #3 Killgore Trout

I strongly suspect we're going to see a Jindal/Palin ticket in 2012.

I wish I had time to read all of these posts--boy, does no one sleep around here?
I don't think there will be a Jindal/Palin ticket, Killgore. It's too early. I'm hoping Romney or even Rudy still has a shot at it. However, I think we may be surprised --like, perhaps the Dems with a new candidate. I have a prediction for everyone, what do you think about this: Hillary C. will resign as Sec'y of State.

368 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:48:41am

re: #351 Annar
True. Don't see the Jews, Catholics, Druids, etc...calling for the violent conversion of other faiths.

369 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:48:55am

re: #319 albusteve

beheading update


[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

"I wouldn't say (the problem) is particular to the Muslim community, but to the immigrant community whether you're Muslim or otherwise,"

What a load of codswallop.

370 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:49:41am

re: #359 Chicago Blonde

I can hear the dishes in the sink trying to sprout new life forms.

Be Back Later.

Why do you hate dishwashing liquid?

371 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:49:59am

re: #369 MandyManners

"I wouldn't say (the problem) is particular to the Muslim community, but to the immigrant community whether you're Muslim or otherwise,"

What a load of codswallop.

codswallop is very rare too...but that is some I'd guess

372 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:50:57am

re: #370 Charles
Why does CB want to wipe out a whole ecosystem?

373 walter l. newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:51:11am

re: #367 katemaclaren

I wish I had time to read all of these posts--boy, does no one sleep around here?
I don't think there will be a Jindal/Palin ticket, Killgore. It's too early. I'm hoping Romney or even Rudy still has a shot at it. However, I think we may be surprised --like, perhaps the Dems with a new candidate. I have a prediction for everyone, what do you think about this: Hillary C. will resign as Sec'y of State.

WHY would any conservative consider ANY of the above choices, considering that they ALL got pushed out once before.

It these folks were not capable of fight McCain, who the heck wants them in office? Not me.

I'm not for any of the two parties, but, if the GOP wants any chance for a shot at the next presidential election, they are going to have to reconstitute their platform and show us some new blood.

374 godfrey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:51:33am

I met Jindal a few times. He's a smart Catholic with higher ed and health care admin experience. He's also ambitious because he wants to serve. His support for the bill is definitely regrettable, and I think he supported it for two simple reasons: one, he doesn't know enough to dismiss the 'teach the limitations of evolution' attitude, and two, it was politically expedient in LA, where he needed the Perkins vote to win. I seriously doubt he believes any creationist nonsense himself. But Charles is right that his support now prevents him from challenging the fundie wing of the GOP. Politics is hamstringing Jindal's intellect. Best thing to do is educate him fast. We need talent. He could be useful. Send him one-pagers. Sally Clausen could help, along with Archbishop Hughes.

375 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:51:42am

re: #369 MandyManners

"I wouldn't say (the problem) is particular to the Muslim community, but to the immigrant community whether you're Muslim or otherwise,"

What a load of codswallop.

Immigrant Baptists beat the hell out of their wives? Immigrant Buddhists? Immigrant Atheists?

376 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:51:54am

re: #369 MandyManners

For sure. Remember how those pesky Irish used to lop off their wives' heads after every spat? And the Italians? They only started with horses' heads.
/lots o sarc/

377 itellu3times  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:52:08am

re: #365 itellu3times

Ethanal, Thanos, you don't see the point there?

Ethanol.

I would also raise the experience of California in our energy crisis of a few years back. Even problems in the pricing mechanisms, can make the system nonfunctional, even when energy is not actually short!

I have no argument with "abundant" energy, I am just trying to warn you that that does not in itself fix all problems.

Though all my favorite shale oil arguments are suffering right now from cheap petroleum.

If we can get fusion working commercially, I suppose our energy problems would receded by a few centuries, until we get global warming from too much fusion! Larry Niven wrote about this (on the puppeteer homeworld) thirty years ago. Space-based solar energy is another good long-term option (puppeteers couldn't do this as their home star misbehaved, so they left it behind, but then were jealous of the Ringworld technology ...).

378 Annar  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:52:14am

re: #367 katemaclaren

I have a prediction for everyone, what do you think about this: Hillary C. will resign as Sec'y of State.

If the SS Obamanic is listing seriously after the 2010 election cycle she will definitely jump ship after sinking the appropriate dagger in the captain's heart.

379 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:52:47am

among other stuff I learned today, I found out that two one way air fares are much cheaper than a round trip!....and I did it on my own (no help) :)

380 jaunte  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:53:16am

re: #375 MandyManners

"Marsha Freeman, director of the International Women's Rights Action Watch at the University of Minnesota, said honor killing is a cultural and not religious phenomenon. She said it's practiced in some Muslim countries but not others and is present in nations with people of other religions."

I'd like to see the statistics she's looking at, if she has any.

381 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:53:21am

re: #375 MandyManners

Immigrant Baptists beat the hell out of their wives? Immigrant Buddhists? Immigrant Atheists?

My wife is Thai Buddhist. I have to admit, sometimes I spank her. Had to admit it.

382 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:54:04am

re: #376 tradewind

For sure. Remember how those pesky Irish used to lop off their wives' heads after every spat? And the Italians? They only started with horses' heads.
/lots o sarc/

I focused on religions.

383 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:54:04am

re: #374 godfrey

I agree with your tactic idea. We should not simply bash, we must educate.

384 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:54:08am

re: #370 Charles

Because he understands the link between Dawn and the melting of the arctic ice.

385 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:54:27am

re: #380 jaunte

"Marsha Freeman, director of the International Women's Rights Action Watch at the University of Minnesota, said honor killing is a cultural and not religious phenomenon. She said it's practiced in some Muslim countries but not others and is present in nations with people of other religions."

I'd like to see the statistics she's looking at, if she has any.

She pulled it out of her hajib.

386 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:54:56am

re: #381 VegasRick

My wife is Thai Buddhist. I have to admit, sometimes I spank her. Had to admit it.

*shaking head*

387 yma o hyd  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:55:20am

re: #384 tradewind

Because he understands the link between Dawn and the melting of the arctic ice.

What has Dawn be up to now, melting icecaps?
Naughty girl!

388 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:55:25am

re: #386 MandyManners

*shaking head*

I know.

389 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:55:28am

Ooh. An attack in Cairo? Another pissed-off Anabaptist?

390 Kaymad  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:56:12am

I'm sorry, but this creationist hysteria reminds me of those fanatical types on the pro-life issue that wouldn't vote for that octuplet mom because she isn't pro life enough.

Lets say Jindal is elected (no doubt carrying the homeschool vote), as president would his burning issue really be this creationist nonsense? Would he want to be known as 'the Creationist President'? Give me a break. I normally stay out of the creationist vs Darwin stuff because on my list of issues that are important to me it ranks somewhere around Global warming.

391 yma o hyd  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:56:17am

re: #389 MandyManners

Ooh. An attack in Cairo? Another pissed-off Anabaptist?

Amish, Mandy - Amish!

392 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:56:36am

re: #382 MandyManners

Oh. I focused on immigrants.
Probably both were beheaders way before muslims came to America, right?
In fact, the practice of honor killing is one of the few things not claimed as invented by Islamists.
:)

393 godfrey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:58:04am

re: #383 FrogMarch

I'd like to see a harder edge to science education in Louisiana. Their secondary system is making progress in some ways (teacher training for ex). It would be a shame to see relapse.

394 tradewind  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:58:23am

(New Cairo thread)

395 soccerdad  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:58:43am
My take: the MSM and the left would love it if Jindal is the GOP nominee in 2012, because he will lose. So they’re going to ignore all the damaging issues until then, preemptively sabotaging any effort to find a more viable GOP candidate.

Great ...another McCain (i.e. damaged candidate from GOP) coming up in 2012.

396 jaunte  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:58:56am

re: #390 Kaymad

The msm will turn any creationist-linked politician into the Creationist Candidate, no matter what other qualities they might have. This would be a good thing to avoid, if you want a fiscal conservative to be President.

397 kynna  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:59:30am

re: #303 Charles

They slammed Palin because she was running for Vice President. It was important to take her out.

Bobby Jindal is not running yet.

That's the whole point of what I wrote above. And also note that in Palin's case, a lot of the charges of religious extremism and support for creationism were distorted or false.

In Jindal's case, they are TRUE.

That's what I'm saying. Believe me, I've made the argument against Jindal and his agenda a million times with my mom. I am not one of his defenders in the least.

The MSM wants Jindal for the GOP. They want Palin to go away. The reasoning is obvious -- at leas to me. Libertarians/conservatives are not being smart if they push an independent thinker under the bus simply because socons like her.

398 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:59:48am

re: #390 Kaymad

I'm sorry, but this creationist hysteria reminds me of those fanatical types on the pro-life issue that wouldn't vote for that octuplet mom because she isn't pro life enough.

Lets say Jindal is elected (no doubt carrying the homeschool vote), as president would his burning issue really be this creationist nonsense? Would he want to be known as 'the Creationist President'? Give me a break. I normally stay out of the creationist vs Darwin stuff because on my list of issues that are important to me it ranks somewhere around Global warming.

So it's unimportant to you and you haven't been paying attention to the news about it, but you still feel free to call it "hysteria?"

Got it.

399 itellu3times  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:01:06am

re: #304 Naso Tang

We cannot produce and consume enough energy in this eon to make a gnats difference in what the sun throws at us.

What can be bad are the byproducts of the production of what we energy we do produce.

Perhaps that is what you meant to say?

Oh, I suppose we could trigger a nuclear winter, if we went all out.

I just wanted to point out the physics and economics of the whole systems, are more complex than just supply. Remember when fission nukes were supposed to supply electricity "too cheap to meter!" in the 1950s, ho ho.

400 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:03:57am

re: #390 Kaymad

Have you considered STARTING YOUR OWN BLOG?

401 SixDegrees  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:03:59am
If we can get fusion working commercially...

The first step would be to get fusion working at all.

402 Kaymad  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:04:10am

re: #396 jaunte

I think that might be a good point on the one hand. On the other hand I think we should stop letting the MSM define our candidates. Seems to me they are breaking apart and may not be in the position to do that much longer.

403 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:04:25am

re: #365 itellu3times

No, I don't. At some point in the further future we will need ethanol and biofuel derivative sources for some things. Aerospace comes to mind.

If Energy's nearly too cheap to meter and oil and gas very scare, then biological means to gain those portable fuels makes sense even if it's a "more energy in than you get out" equation.

Should we be replacing oil and gas with it in cars? Not really, but we might need to for a while in the short term until other techs improve. Burning hydrocarbons for fuel is less desirable than nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, geothermal, but... if it's what you have to do, then it's what you have to do. The ugliest power source is coal, but it's still what we have to do for now.

404 jaunte  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:05:45am

re: #402 Kaymad

I think that might be a good point on the one hand. On the other hand I think we should stop letting the MSM define our candidates. Seems to me they are breaking apart and may not be in the position to do that much longer.

I think it may be premature to expect the demise of the entire media.

405 NelsFree  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:06:08am

re: #225 yma o hyd

I think it deserves an upding.

406 Stonemason  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:07:22am

re: #375 MandyManners

Immigrant Baptists beat the hell out of their wives? Immigrant Buddhists? Immigrant Atheists?

I think they meant people from mostly muslim countries that might not be religious anymore but still like those tenets of islam that allow them to beat their wives.

407 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:07:51am

re: #317 funky chicken

I'm actually more concerned about the effects of all the pharmaceuticals and other chemicals going into the water supply. The bizarre stuff that's happening to fish and frogs is really, really interesting too.

Anyway, if it really came down to Jindal vs Obama in 2012, I'd hold my nose and vote Jindal, even though I'm pro-choice, not religious, and definitely not fond of creationism.

but I wouldn't be at all happy, and would be shocked if Jindal could win

408 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:07:52am

re: #399 itellu3times

Oh, I suppose we could trigger a nuclear winter, if we went all out.

I just wanted to point out the physics and economics of the whole systems, are more complex than just supply. Remember when fission nukes were supposed to supply electricity "too cheap to meter!" in the 1950s, ho ho.

If you look at whole systems as you are suggesting they are still one of the cheapest power sources going, even saddled with the tiresome burden of regulations that no other major power source on earth can meet.

409 Kaymad  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:09:06am

re: #400 MandyManners

Not really. Have you?

410 Kaymad  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:10:32am

re: #404 jaunte

I think it may be premature to expect the demise of the entire media.

True. But a girl can dream.

411 katemaclaren  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:11:13am

Well, back to grading papers--I'm thinking of giving an assignment for a research paper on one of these topics: Creationism, Republicans, Democrats. --or all, in turn. I like to stay neutral and have them voice their opinions and we talk about it in class, then they have to go do the research, come back and discuss it again. You should have seen my classroom the day the class returned after researching "Should we rebuild New Orleans?" At this college, there are many "minorities"--as they have self-identified. They aren't afraid to express their opinion--especially when it is an uninformed one! ..and especially to me, who in this community, at least, is really in the minority!
They have strong opinions, but they are quick to realize that research reveals a whole new way of thinking--and the collision is always good for them. Many times, my students have expressed appreciation for widening their viewpoints. I'm not bragging, though. It was out of frustration that I started throwing up topics like this to expose them to the fallacies of group think--or as Orwell says, "doublethink."

412 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:11:35am

re: #409 Kaymad

You miss the point. See- Mandy doesn't show up and tell Charles what to do with his own blog by whining that the topics he posts on are unimportant.

413 katemaclaren  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:12:17am

re: #373 walter l. newton

You're right, of course.

414 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:14:09am

I won't vote for Bobby Jindal, by the way, under any circumstances. I will never vote for a politician who pushes the Discovery Institute line, and associates with nutjobs like the Family Research Council and the Wallbuilders.

415 katemaclaren  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:16:39am

re: #378 Annar

So, so true. I like that about sinking the dagger into the Captain's heart--good metaphor!

416 Kaymad  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:17:12am

re: #412 Sharmuta

Oh please. I didn't "tell Charles what to do". That's a tad juvenile. I just think that this is a very minor issue. I enjoy this site. You all are much smarter than I am so I don't comment often. Now that I've stroked everyone's ego I'll just fade back into anonymity as I'm sure since I haven't said "ME TO" you all will be grateful for. I just feel that this isn't a huge issue. That's only my opinion.

417 katemaclaren  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:17:54am

re: #414 Charles

I won't vote for Bobby Jindal, by the way, under any circumstances. I will never vote for a politician who pushes the Discovery Institute line, and associates with nutjobs like the Family Research Council and the Wallbuilders.

Neither will I.

418 tappin52  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:18:07am

Can someone explain to me what the objective of the Discovery Institute and all of these Creationists is with regard to school curriculums? Why this super push all of a sudden to screw with our science education?

419 itellu3times  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:18:42am

re: #408 Thanos

If you look at whole systems as you are suggesting they are still one of the cheapest power sources going, even saddled with the tiresome burden of regulations that no other major power source on earth can meet.

Agreed, but keep the meters on.

420 katemaclaren  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:18:55am

re: #417 katemaclaren

Oh wait. Who are the wallbuilders? Would that be the Chinese or the Romans?
Just kidding, as if I needed to add that! I might vote for a Roman, though.

421 Perpetua  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:20:26am

re: #255 Charles

The only possible remedy is for real conservatives who want America to have the best science and science education to speak out against this creationist garbage -- LOUDLY.

I know. Good luck with that.

Hi Charles,
I do want the children of the USA to have the best science education. And I am not a creationist. However, I am concerned that parents will just pull their children out of the public schools if the parents feel their religious beliefs are being disrespected. So then we will wind up with a lot of children educated in horrible science programs. Isn't there a way to gently mollify the religious parents with some show of respect while giving their children a really strong science education? I mean, what benefit do we gain if we have the very best public school science programs but a large number of parents won't let their children attend the public schools?

422 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:20:27am

re: #419 itellu3times

Agreed, but keep the meters on.

Definitely. My point is that energy is the biggest blue sky industry of this century, and we've got our parochial energy lobbies all so busy tearing each other down that they can't see it. That worldwide market is going to be fullfilled by others.

423 jaunte  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:21:01am

re: #418 tappin52

Can someone explain to me what the objective of the Discovery Institute and all of these Creationists is with regard to school curriculums? Why this super push all of a sudden to screw with our science education?

It's a Grand Cause to unite supporters behind a political movement.
(In my opinion) The people behind it don't really care about anything but political power.

424 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:21:18am

re: #418 tappin52

Can someone explain to me what the objective of the Discovery Institute and all of these Creationists is with regard to school curriculums? Why this super push all of a sudden to screw with our science education?

Start here: The Wedge strategy.

The Wedge strategy is a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Institute manifesto known as the Wedge Document, which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to "defeat [scientific] materialism" represented by evolution, "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions" and to "affirm the reality of God." Its goal is to "renew" American culture by shaping public policy to reflect conservative Christian, namely evangelical Protestant, values.

425 itellu3times  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:21:46am

re: #403 Thanos

No, I don't. At some point in the further future we will need ethanol and biofuel derivative sources for some things. Aerospace comes to mind.

If Energy's nearly too cheap to meter and oil and gas very scare, then biological means to gain those portable fuels makes sense even if it's a "more energy in than you get out" equation.

Should we be replacing oil and gas with it in cars? Not really, but we might need to for a while in the short term until other techs improve. Burning hydrocarbons for fuel is less desirable than nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, geothermal, but... if it's what you have to do, then it's what you have to do. The ugliest power source is coal, but it's still what we have to do for now.

I just mean that the economics of ethanol in the US, based on current crops - doesn't work. Doesn't work at all, with oil below about $70/barrel. Ethanol is working great in Brazil. We could probably import ethanol from Brazil and turn a profit on it, if the politicians would step aside. It will probably work in the US at some point, with better crops, biotech refiners, some more *system* level innovations.

426 AuntAcid  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:22:55am

re: #418 tappin52

Can someone explain to me what the objective of the Discovery Institute and all of these Creationists is with regard to school curriculum's? Why this super push all of a sudden to screw with our science education?

ignorance abhors a vacuum

427 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:23:00am

re: #418 tappin52

Ben Stein said what their stance is very clearly in Expelled.

"Science leads to killing people"

They want to destroy science, they think it's the source of all evil in the world.

428 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:25:09am

re: #425 itellu3times

I just mean that the economics of ethanol in the US, based on current crops - doesn't work. Doesn't work at all, with oil below about $70/barrel. Ethanol is working great in Brazil. We could probably import ethanol from Brazil and turn a profit on it, if the politicians would step aside. It will probably work in the US at some point, with better crops, biotech refiners, some more *system* level innovations.

I not a big ethanol fan - it's even problematic in Brazil when you take into account the vast amount of human labor that cane crops take. I'm just saying that I"m open to all power sources. I like some better than others though.

429 kingkenrod  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:26:36am

re: #414 Charles

I won't vote for Bobby Jindal, by the way, under any circumstances. I will never vote for a politician who pushes the Discovery Institute line, and associates with nutjobs like the Family Research Council and the Wallbuilders.

I will, if the alternative is worse. That alternative will probably be Obama, unless his presidency is an epic disaster.

430 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:27:18am

/pimf "I'm"

431 NelsFree  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:33:47am

re: #401 SixDegrees

The first step would be to get fusion working at all.


Fission reactors work quite well with current technology. Safeguards are much better than in the 60s. Natural radioisotopes emitted from a coal-fired power plant exhaust are more radioactive on a daily basis than anything emitted from a Nuc plant. Nucs emit no greenhouse gases. The reason we don't have more Nuc plants? Environmentalists.
Go figure.

432 tappin52  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:34:30am

re: #424 Charles

Thanks for the homework assignment. Their objective seems to have a huge conflict with the Establishment Clause.

433 NelsFree  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:43:05am

re: #421 Perpetua


I do want the children of the USA to have the best science education. And I am not a creationist. However, I am concerned that parents will just pull their children out of the public schools if the parents feel their religious beliefs are being disrespected.


In my town, the option of pulling your kids out of Public School is either:
Private School, which costs beaucoups bucks,
OR
Homeschooling, which requires a stay-at-home Parent.
Almost all parents have to leave their children in Public School because they can't affort the options.

434 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:45:36am

Guess who is pushing Bobby Jindal for President? Our old buddy Grover Norquist, that's who.."The anti-tax crusader Grover Norquist believes, too, that Jindal is a certainty to occupy the White House..." Who is Grover Norquist and why should we be concerned? Read this, it will send a cold chill up your spine... [Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

435 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:06:56pm

re: #60 Perplexed

A conservative candidate must first be a person of principles. They've got to hold onto those principles regardless of what gets thrown at them for holding those principles. They've got to be willing to stand up to the press for the lies are surely to come. They've got to be honest, first with themselves and then with the pubic.

They must however, espouse the RIGHT principles; for instance, the principle that it is good for our nation for our public schools to religiously indoctrinate our young is, I contend, an egregiously wrong one.

436 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:26:47pm

re: #308 arcatan

Creationism and other similar views are close to the top of my "harmless delusion" list. I realize, however, that among the creationist crowd there's often a host of additional baggage, but on it's own it's a pretty harmless idea.

It is far from harmless, to our children or our country, to mandate that they be taught religious dogma as if it were empirical fact in public high school science class. It limits their future academic and career opportunities, and it hamstrings our future economic and national security position in the world.

437 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:32:29pm

re: #390 Kaymad

I'm sorry, but this creationist hysteria reminds me of those fanatical types on the pro-life issue that wouldn't vote for that octuplet mom because she isn't pro life enough.

Lets say Jindal is elected (no doubt carrying the homeschool vote), as president would his burning issue really be this creationist nonsense? Would he want to be known as 'the Creationist President'? Give me a break. I normally stay out of the creationist vs Darwin stuff because on my list of issues that are important to me it ranks somewhere around Global warming.

He has already demonstrated a willingness to mandate the religious indoctrination of other peoples' kids in public schools on a state level; I'll be damned if I'll vote to give him the opportunity to take it national.

438 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:40:51pm

re: #418 tappin52

Can someone explain to me what the objective of the Discovery Institute and all of these Creationists is with regard to school curriculums? Why this super push all of a sudden to screw with our science education?

Because the only way to achieve a theocracy in America is through a popular vote that elects politicians willing to change the US Constitution, and to do that, they have to begin brainwashing future voters into Christian theocracy young, and to do that, they'll need to seize effective control of the public school system so they can disseminate their propaganda. The toppling of the scientific edifice and the erection of a dogmatic religious temple in its place in public high school science class is critical to that endeavor.

439 yochanan  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:41:54pm

re: #368 pingjockey

True. Don't see the Jews, Catholics, Druids, etc...calling for the violent conversion of other faiths.

catholics used to do it for example the expulsion of jews from spain. is an example.
just in America and modern western states they don't do it anymore.

440 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:46:46pm

re: #421 Perpetua

Hi Charles,
I do want the children of the USA to have the best science education. And I am not a creationist. However, I am concerned that parents will just pull their children out of the public schools if the parents feel their religious beliefs are being disrespected. So then we will wind up with a lot of children educated in horrible science programs. Isn't there a way to gently mollify the religious parents with some show of respect while giving their children a really strong science education? I mean, what benefit do we gain if we have the very best public school science programs but a large number of parents won't let their children attend the public schools?

Mollification won't work. There people want oxymoronic 'religious science' taught in public schools, and that means creationism. We can't be a little bit pregnant on this issue; either public high school science classes are polluted by sectarian religious dogmas, or they aren't. Let those who cannot stand for their children to be taught genuine science in public high school science class go ahead and homeschool them, or place them in private schools that will fill their naive young minds with that garbage; the science education of other peoples' children should not be held hostage to their anti-science religious bigotry.

441 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:50:00pm

re: #414 Charles

I won't vote for Bobby Jindal, by the way, under any circumstances. I will never vote for a politician who pushes the Discovery Institute line, and associates with nutjobs like the Family Research Council and the Wallbuilders.

Yep. I'd hold my nose and do it, but I wouldn't donate or work for the campaign at all.

I'm looking at sending money to "normal" democrats that I can find. If I can find some. sigh

442 Perpetua  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:59:02pm

re: #440 Salamantis
Hi Salamantis,

I understand that you are not concerned about the education of those children who will be pulled out of public schools. For me this is a huge issue. Children of religious fundamentalist are exactly who I do want to have exposure to a broader world.

But think about even just the children who will remain in the public schools. The fewer voters using the public schools to educate their own children, the less voters you have wanting tax dollars to go to support public education.

(In my work, I meet the adults who were children in fundamentalist households. Many of them are seriously messed up and spending their adulthood trying to undo the damage of their childhoods. Public schools are a lifesaver for such children.)

443 devil in baggy pants  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:12:02pm

I think there's a bit of myopia about this issue here at LGF. Very few people care as passionately about this issue as some posters here. It will not be as big of an issue as you might think.

I personally believe Jindal is too young and would prefer someone with some mileage on them to counter the One's naivete-- I still like that Duncan Hunter from CA.

444 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:14:32pm

re: #442 Perpetua

Hi Salamantis,

I understand that you are not concerned about the education of those children who will be pulled out of public schools. For me this is a huge issue. Children of religious fundamentalist are exactly who I do want to have exposure to a broader world.

But think about even just the children who will remain in the public schools. The fewer voters using the public schools to educate their own children, the less voters you have wanting tax dollars to go to support public education.

(In my work, I meet the adults who were children in fundamentalist households. Many of them are seriously messed up and spending their adulthood trying to undo the damage of their childhoods. Public schools are a lifesaver for such children.)

I AM concerned about the science education of the children of religious fundamentalists. However, since parents have the option of miseducating their children in America, I do not see what can be legally done about it.

They will still be required, as American citizens and taxpayers, to fund public education, as long as the voucher movement can be resisted, and we should politically lobby to ensure that such public-education-crippling initiatives do not pass. It is, after all, the Disco Institute's fallback strategy; if they cannot selectively destroy public high school science education, they are prepared to destroy ALL of it, for their goal of brainwashing future voters into sympathy for religious theocracy could also be achieved by this means. The federal government should not be forced to subsidize anti-science religious education that violates the 1st Amendment prohibitions against church-state entanglement.

445 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:17:54pm

re: #443 devil in baggy pants

I think there's a bit of myopia about this issue here at LGF. Very few people care as passionately about this issue as some posters here. It will not be as big of an issue as you might think.

I personally believe Jindal is too young and would prefer someone with some mileage on them to counter the One's naivete-- I still like that Duncan Hunter from CA.

Just because a large proportion of voters do not care about this issue does not mean that it is not a critically important issue for the future of our nation.

I would hasten to add that the experience in Kansas strongly suggests that, when voters are made aware of the disastrous ramifications of this creationist campaign for the science education of their children, that they DO indeed come to care about it.

446 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:20:10pm

re: #443 devil in baggy pants

Huh? I think it's a non issue, if it's not taught in public schools.

447 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:22:19pm

Sal:

You got 4 or 5 on the burner at once. Not a fair fight. Go easy on em.

448 Perpetua  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:31:04pm

Salamantis,

I noticed you gave me a downding on both my comments: 421 and 442. It seems like you are down dinging me Just because you don't like my thinking. I genuinely thought I was adding to the discourse. The comments were on topic, weren't vulgar or in any way inappropriate as far as I can see.

So what is your strategy on down dinging? Are you trying to discourage any comments with which you disagree by intimidating people with the fear of loosing their Karma?

I only down ding people if I think they are "out of line". But you seem to down ding people if you disagree with them. That seems out of line to me.

Should I retaliate and down ding your replies? Since I had so little Karma to begin with, 20, and your took 5%, I suppose I could spend the next few months downdinging every comment you make until I take off 5% of your 12,688 Karma? I would need to down ding your next 634 comments.

It seems tacky. Will all your Karma, I would think you would be setting a good example. But the example you are setting is nasty.

449 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:41:11pm

re: #448 Perpetua

Salamantis,

I noticed you gave me a downding on both my comments: 421 and 442. It seems like you are down dinging me Just because you don't like my thinking. I genuinely thought I was adding to the discourse. The comments were on topic, weren't vulgar or in any way inappropriate as far as I can see.

So what is your strategy on down dinging? Are you trying to discourage any comments with which you disagree by intimidating people with the fear of loosing their Karma?

I only down ding people if I think they are "out of line". But you seem to down ding people if you disagree with them. That seems out of line to me.

Should I retaliate and down ding your replies? Since I had so little Karma to begin with, 20, and your took 5%, I suppose I could spend the next few months downdinging every comment you make until I take off 5% of your 12,688 Karma? I would need to down ding your next 634 comments.

It seems tacky. Will all your Karma, I would think you would be setting a good example. But the example you are setting is nasty.

I downdinged your first comment because I find your suggestion that we feed the creationist crocodile in the hopes that it eats our nation and our children last to be morally repugnant. I downdinged your second comment because you slandered my motives by flat-out stating that you considered my unwillingness to appease these stealth theocrats to mean that I didn't care about the science education of our nation's fundamentalist children.

Both of these comments, in my view, were egregious enough to richly merit and deserve my downdings.

450 venomx  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:44:01pm

I will absolutely never vote for a democrat.The way they have behaved during the Bush presidency,half of them should be in jail for treason.If the repub is slightly wacko,or a Dem-lite,ill just wash my hands of it all.

451 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:46:53pm

In other words, I DO care about the science education of the children of religious fundamentallists. But, if it comes down to a choice between either allowing them to fuck up their OWN children's science education via homeschooling or enrolling in anti-science dogmatic religious private schools, or fucking up the science education of ALL of America's children by kissing their creationist arses and violating the ist Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America in order to do so, I will reluctantly but firmly choose the former.

I also direct your attention to comment # 433, which strongly indicates that the lions' share of such threats are more apparent than real.

452 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:50:39pm

re: #450 venomx

I will absolutely never vote for a democrat.The way they have behaved during the Bush presidency,half of them should be in jail for treason.If the repub is slightly wacko,or a Dem-lite,ill just wash my hands of it all.

I would consider the defenestration of American public high school science education by sectarian religious dogma to in and of itself be an act of treason against my beloved nation, and categorically refuse to vote for ANY politician, of WHATEVER party, who has demonstrated a willingness to do so. Jindal is a shining and sterling example of this.

453 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:59:06pm

Perpetua, the fact that you are now going through and gratuitously downdinging ALL of my comments on this thread, including ones that were not addressed to you and did not speak to any issues you were addressing, is prima facie evidence that you are a petulant child who cannot bear to have her contentions criticized, and will revenge herself inappropriately.

I am reporting your activity to Charles.

454 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:02:42pm

And now she's going back to prior threads and doing the same damn thing, without posting a single reason for her disagreement - because it is nonexistent. It is naked personal vengeance, nothing more.

455 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:05:35pm

Like I was saying: not a fair fight.

If I read Perpetua correctly, the logic was that we should somewhat acquiesce to ID demands for the sake of keeping the ID parents children in the public schools, to somehow save them. But, that would mean subjecting all the rest of the kids to being taught 'alternatives' to evolution.

If that is what's being stated... huh?

456 Grundle  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:06:36pm

Stealth cuts both ways. Any Presitential hopeful who put Darwinism as a central part of their platform and adamantly opposed creationism in any way shape or form would put the death nail in their own campaign coffin. Politicians try not to talk about it or dance around the issue when actually asked. Jindal is at least honest in what he believes and isn't affraid to talk about it. Pelosi even pretends to be a Catholic.
Our public schools are the laughing stock of the world already and creationism had nothing to do with that. School vouchers to private and yes religous schools are the only thing that will fix our public schools. I would rather have creationism taught alongside Darwinism than have (how does 5+5 make you feel?)

457 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:11:03pm

Thank you for blocking her, Charles. She retroactively downdinged more than 150 of my past comments before she could be stopped.

Bitch.

458 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:11:31pm

re: #456 Grundle

Public schools will be worse if they teach creationism along side evolution, not better. Go ahead and put your children in private schools that teach creationism if you want.

459 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:13:30pm

re: #457 Salamantis

LaHoo-ze-Hair..

460 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:16:57pm

re: #456 Grundle

Stealth cuts both ways. Any Presitential hopeful who put Darwinism as a central part of their platform and adamantly opposed creationism in any way shape or form would put the death nail in their own campaign coffin. Politicians try not to talk about it or dance around the issue when actually asked. Jindal is at least honest in what he believes and isn't affraid to talk about it. Pelosi even pretends to be a Catholic.
Our public schools are the laughing stock of the world already and creationism had nothing to do with that. School vouchers to private and yes religous schools are the only thing that will fix our public schools. I would rather have creationism taught alongside Darwinism than have (how does 5+5 make you feel?)

Any presidential candidate who supports suborning our Constitution by bastardizing public high school science education in order to pander to anti-science religious dogmatists richly deserves political extinction, and my vote will be against them every time. You don't see other nations teaching this crapola to THEIR kids, unless they are in the Muslim world - and we can clearly see how well that's working out for them as far as academic endeavors are concerned.

461 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:18:08pm

re: #459 BigPapa

LaHoo-ze-Hair..

Yep. Big-time loser. Royally and regally.

And now she's lost her account.

462 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:21:55pm

Don't worry, fellow Lizards; hemorrhoidal anuses like perpetua have never in the past intimidated me from speaking my reasoned opinion here - and they never will.

463 Grundle  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:23:43pm

Dude, you sound like Dennis Hopper in Apocalypse Now.

464 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:25:56pm

re: #463 Grundle

Dude, you sound like Dennis Hopper in Apocalypse Now.

Are you a fan of Pat Buchanan?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

465 venomx  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:26:28pm

salamantis,im not arguing with your point(s)at all.But i think we should be as equally angry of the dumbing down of the entire education system.And dont even get me started on the P.C. revisionism thats been happening to history in our classrooms,for decades now.Indoctrination by ANY group is wrong.

466 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:29:54pm

re: #465 venomx

salamantis,im not arguing with your point(s)at all.But i think we should be as equally angry of the dumbing down of the entire education system.And dont even get me started on the P.C. revisionism thats been happening to history in our classrooms,for decades now.Indoctrination by ANY group is wrong.

Evolutionary theory is not dogmatism, it is empirical science, and the teaching of it to our children is not indoctrination, it is education.

467 venomx  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:39:10pm

umm i didnt say anything about evolution being indoctrination.Sounds like youre on fire,and just ready to argue.later!

468 Dayenu  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:44:35pm

Like I usually say, to reflect the futility of predicting candidates...

...did anyone even KNOW Obama's NAME back in 2004?

469 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:46:34pm

re: #467 venomx

umm i didnt say anything about evolution being indoctrination.Sounds like youre on fire,and just ready to argue.later!

I took this statement of yours in #465:

Indoctrination by ANY group is wrong.

to imply that evolutionary science education was an example of educational indoctrination. If you say that this was not what you meant to imply, I am willing to accept that.

Downding removed.

470 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:49:46pm

Btw: Perpetua has proven not to be so perpetual, ayy?

471 Grundle  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:53:45pm

Pat Buchanan is a protecionist, I'm not. I don't like illegal immigration. OOOOH I have something in common with Pat Buchanan.

472 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:56:35pm

One last comment on Perpetua, before I allow her to deservedly lapse into Lizard oblivion:

Her vicious list behavior today serves as eloquent testimony to exactly how vindictive these folks are.

473 funky chicken  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:04:05pm

re: #434 MrPaulRevere

Guess who is pushing Bobby Jindal for President? Our old buddy Grover Norquist, that's who.."The anti-tax crusader Grover Norquist believes, too, that Jindal is a certainty to occupy the White House..." Who is Grover Norquist and why should we be concerned? Read this, it will send a cold chill up your spine... [Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

pffft always the same trash

474 Grundle  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:09:16pm

I am somewhat religous. Pat Buchanan serves a role for people who identify with him. I havn't read much from Buchanan since he ran for president. You seem to have a fixation on him as though he's your arch enemy. I wouldn't have even thought of him if it wasn't for your blog.

Riddle me this charles, are you a Republican or a Democrat?
Why do you spend more time attacking people who seem to be more on your side than not.
The far right in this country is marginalized while the far left just got elected to the White House.
Have you ever heard of a coalition government? The right wing of the U.S. is a large conglomerate of people with competing ideas as to what's more important for the party platform. Sometimes you just have to hold your nose and vote as I did for John MCcain.

475 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:12:14pm

And with that, I bid you adieu.

476 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:17:30pm

re: #474 Grundle

I havn't read much from Buchanan since he ran for president.

Well gee willikers .... maybe you ought to do some reading there Opie before you disagree....


/of course he probably came from VDARE

477 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:39:25pm

"I haven't read something from somebody in a bunch of years, but don't dare attack him since he's a good guy!"

478 RexMundi  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 4:56:20am
My take: the MSM and the left would love it if Jindal is the GOP nominee in 2012, because he will lose. So they’re going to ignore all the damaging issues until then, preemptively sabotaging any effort to find a more viable GOP candidate.

And he should lose, but why place the blame on the MSM and the left when it's Jindal who believes in such execrable stupidity as creationism?

479 arcatan  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 2:17:15pm

There are so many wrong ideas about life and reality we're a long way from sorting them all out. There are so many stupid ideas that are in fact harmful, wasting your time battling creationism is at best misguided (unless you're at war with Christianity). I'm an atheist yet I don't believe in science, while it's a valuable tool in many areas it fails in many areas too.

For example, up until the 1980's, science taught that all life on earth was dependent on the energy of the sun. Then an deep sea underwater community was discovered and science had to modify its position. Sciencists (people whose religion is science) often respond that when science is wrong it admits it. But science needs absolute or at least compelling proof to admit it's wrong, no different than religion.

There are still many problems with the idea of evolution, there is so much we still don't know and that science is incapable of understanding any time soon. I had a discussion with a physics professor about gravity, in the end he agreed that it's not very well understood by the experts. Even less understood is evolution - an idea I do believe in but am certain it's not the whole explanation. Talk to some experts, if you know enough you'll be able to get agreement that there are many gaping holes in the theory.

Before getting all knee-jerk on me you need to ask yourself: What is the harm in creationism? To teach that some people believe this shouldn't be a problem - unless you're anti-Christian.

480 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 3:42:25pm

re: #479 arcatan

Right. You're an atheist who doesn't believe in science, you see nothing wrong with teaching creationism, and you're accusing me of being anti-Christian (which, by the way, is false).

Gotcha.

Why do you people always try to pull this stuff at the end of days-old threads?

481 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 6:52:49pm

re: #479 arcatan

There are so many wrong ideas about life and reality we're a long way from sorting them all out. There are so many stupid ideas that are in fact harmful, wasting your time battling creationism is at best misguided (unless you're at war with Christianity). I'm an atheist yet I don't believe in science, while it's a valuable tool in many areas it fails in many areas too.

You must be a nihilist, then, since you seem to accept nothing whatsoever, even when it is massively supported by empirical evidence - which immediately presents the question of why anyone should heed your opinions at all. And teaching creationist religious dogmas to our naive and trusting youth in public high school science class does their young minds great and abiding harm.

For example, up until the 1980's, science taught that all life on earth was dependent on the energy of the sun. Then an deep sea underwater community was discovered and science had to modify its position. Sciencists (people whose religion is science) often respond that when science is wrong it admits it. But science needs absolute or at least compelling proof to admit it's wrong, no different than religion.

Scientific theories change when the underlying facts are discovered to be other, or more, than what they were formerly seen to be, and are augmented, elaborated or refined in order to be consonant with current knowledge. Religious dogmas, otoh, are forever frozen in scripture like flies in ancient amber, and do not change one whit even in the fact of massive counterfactual evidence. This indelible distinction conclusively belies your facile attempt at equivocation.

There are still many problems with the idea of evolution, there is so much we still don't know and that science is incapable of understanding any time soon. I had a discussion with a physics professor about gravity, in the end he agreed that it's not very well understood by the experts. Even less understood is evolution - an idea I do believe in but am certain it's not the whole explanation. Talk to some experts, if you know enough you'll be able to get agreement that there are many gaping holes in the theory.

Your attempted invocation of God-of-the-Ever-Shrinking-Gaps spooky mystery fails. Just because there are some things we don't know doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of things we DO know - and we know to a statistically prohibitive degree that the core tenets of evolutionary theory - random genetic mutation acted upon by nonrandom environmental selection - are utterly valid and sound. Some theories come and go; others, such as spherical-earth heliocentrism, quantum mechanics, relativity theory, and evolution - come and stay - and for good and sufficient empirical reasons.

Before getting all knee-jerk on me you need to ask yourself: What is the harm in creationism? To teach that some people believe this shouldn't be a problem - unless you're anti-Christian.

Empirical science isn't a popularity contest, and public school science class should not be a venue for the release of the latest public opinion poll. It should be a place where only real, genuine, actual, authentic empirical science is taught. To do otherwise - to pollute public high school science instruction with religious dogmas - is to be anti-science, for such actions do grave damage to the scientific pedagogical enterprise.


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