Will Obama Prosecute CIA Officials or Won’t He?

US News • Views: 2,865

It looks like the Obama administration is getting ready to break their promise not to prosecute CIA officials: Holder: ‘follow law’ in US interrogation probe.

WASHINGTON, April 22 (Reuters) - Attorney General Eric Holder on Wednesday said the Justice Department will follow the law wherever it leads in probing U.S. officials behind CIA interrogation policies.

His comments came a day after President Barack Obama opened the door to possible prosecutions of U.S. officials from the previous administration of George W. Bush who prepared the legal groundwork for the use of harsh interrogation methods on terrorism suspects, including waterboarding.

“We’re going to follow the evidence wherever it takes us, follow the law wherever that takes us,” Holder said to reporters at an Earth Day event. “No one is above the law,” he said, reiterating that the department had no intention to prosecute CIA interrogators who acted “in good faith” to follow official legal guidance.

This follows a huge outcry from the United Nations and NGOs over the promise not to prosecute. Is Obama just trying to mollify the screamers, or will he really take such an enormously unpopular (in the US) step?

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609 comments
1 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:59:32am

Whatever it takes to keep Bush in the headlines.......

2 Sharmuta  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:59:45am
“No one is above the law,”

Yeah.... except I remember the clinton administration.

3 gmsc  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:00:46am
Will Obama Prosecute CIA Officials or Won't He?

Yes . . . to both. Remember, we're talking about 0bama.

4 rawmuse  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:00:46am

Why would anyone go in to public service in this environment?

5 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:00:47am

I think a low-level operative or two will be thrown to the lions (no high profile names).

It misses the point. This basically neuters the CIA. It's the thought that counts.

6 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:00:57am

Change.

7 brookly red  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:01:38am

I don't think he will, the discovery phase would go against him.

8 The_Vig  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:01:46am

It must suck to work for the government. You get an order to do something and then the next administration wants to charge you with what you did. The government continues to eat away at itself. Makes me proud to be a nobody.

9 KenJen  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:02:31am

It would be like shoving a banana in his own tailpipe. Backfire!

10 gmsc  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:02:53am

Unacceptable form of torture:

Youtube Video
11 Van Helsing  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:02:53am

If anything other than US law is applied, there will be ...
really bad, negative and doubleplus ungood things happening.

12 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:02:56am

"enormously unpopular (in the US) step" Enormously unpopular with who? The Left has been demanding scalps for years - particularly among the political leaders involved in that decision - VP Cheney, President Bush, and the other political appointees involved in the decision making process. Some on the Left wouldn't have minded throwing in those who actually engaged in the interrogations themselves, but the Administration has cut that part off.

As it stands, everything Obama says comes with an expiration date, and in this instance, it means a further politicization of national security. It also hamstrings those who are on the front lines since it needlessly exposes them to second guessing by the chattering classes who have seemingly forgotten that hamstrining intel gathering directly leads to problems for US national security and undermines our abilities to find threats before they can be carried out.

13 badger1970  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:02:57am

"I am the law"- Judge Dread

Seriously, this administration is so hell bent on taking this country back to pre 9-11 but with a huge economic burden. The damage has been done by just floating this idea out in public, duck and cover.

14 yesandno  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:03:00am

No one is beyond the law...except for those who failed to pay their taxes prior to joining the administration.

Who knew?

15 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:03:29am
16 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:03:39am

To prosecute would be a bad precident, IMHO.

17 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:04:01am

Slow Roll Time At Langley

At the Central Intelligence Agency, it's known as "slow rolling." That's what agency officers sometimes do on politically sensitive assignments. They go through the motions; they pass cables back and forth; they take other jobs out of the danger zone; they cover their backsides.

Sad to say, it's slow roll time at Langley after the release of interrogation memos that, in the words of one veteran officer, "hit the agency like a car bomb in the driveway." President Obama promised CIA officers that they won't be prosecuted for carrying out lawful orders, but the people on the firing line don't believe him. They think the memos have opened a new season of investigation and retribution.

The lesson for younger officers is obvious: Keep your head down. Duck the assignments that carry political risk. Stay away from a counterterrorism program that has become a career hazard.

Smart Power.

18 Randall Gross  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:04:15am

This week's political chumming of media waters, hoping it's just delay until the furor dies down and that it comes to naught. Not counting on it however.

Meanwhile the house has a hate crimes bill for gays and transgenders coming out of committee. I don't support any hate crimes bills, murder is murder, vandalism is vandalism etc. so I'm opposed to adding gays to the existing list, but I do support gay marriage. How crazy does that make me?

19 rawmuse  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:04:16am

Suddenly I feel less safe.

20 Van Helsing  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:04:29am

re: #15 buzzsawmonkey

It's a good thing you're so funny, otherwise the darkness would kill....

21 Kragar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:04:31am

I figure Obama will leave the question dangling and send mixed signals for the next few weeks until he can arrange something else as a distraction and can slip something past under the wire.

Its worked so far.

22 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:04:56am

A couple days ago, Obama visited Langley and told the staff he won't prosecute agents doing their job. Today, he suggested he might just let AG Holder go after them. Sounds like the Obama admin is playing Good Cop/Bad Cop with the CIA.

23 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:05:04am

Banana Republic...

We shall see but the consideration of such an action is a very, very bad precedent...

24 opnion  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:05:08am

If this Administration does bring charges, it will be bad for this nation.
Banana Republic Juntas go after the last one & this has that feel.
Obama said before that he wants to move on & this would be a good time.
It looks to me like they have concluded that keeping the Bush Administration in the spotlight , is good politics.

25 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:05:34am

re: #12 lawhawk

"enormously unpopular (in the US) step" Enormously unpopular with who?

Well, for one, enormously unpopular with CIA officials. It's pretty incredible that the Obama administration thinks it's a good idea to retroactively prosecute CIA officials for simply doing their jobs to the best of their ability and knowledge. They couldn't do any more damage to the morale of the CIA if they tried.

26 Van Helsing  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:05:51am

Law and Justice are not the same things.

27 Bearster  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:05:53am

Earth Day is about fighting civilization's desire and ability to improve the quality of man's quality by conquering nature.

Prosecuting the CIA is about fighting civilization's desire to maintain its quality of life and avoid being conquered by 6th century thugs.

It's no coincidence that the same people endorse both agendas.

28 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:06:09am

Meanwhile, 0bama has proposed changing the name of the US to
the Banana Republic of North America
/

29 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:06:19am

re: #18 Thanos

Meanwhile the house has a hate crimes bill for gays and transgenders coming out of committee. I don't support any hate crimes bills, murder is murder, vandalism is vandalism etc. so I'm opposed to adding gays to the existing list, but I do support gay marriage. How crazy does that make me?

Let me know if you find out, because it may apply to me also.

30 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:06:23am

re: #16 Honorary Yooper

To prosecute would be a bad precident, IMHO.

I have great confidence that somebody who ranked slightly above janitor will be trotted out, tried, publicly humiliated, villified and destroyed.

That will mollify the left.

CIA (and similar organizations) have just been chemically neutered.

31 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:07:08am

re: #25 Charles

I also do not think it would be wise for the Obama Administration to be 'at war' with the CIA.

32 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:07:17am
“We’re going to follow the evidence wherever it takes us, follow the law wherever that takes us,” Holder said to reporters at an Earth Day event. “No one is above the law,”

Right. But I'm guessing he won't "follow the law" all the way to the Democrats in congress who approved the EIT, nor to the former CIA Director George Tenet, appointed by Bill Clinton.

33 Van Helsing  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:07:24am

re: #27 Bearster

Earth Day is about fighting civilization's desire and ability to improve the quality of man's quality by conquering nature.

Prosecuting the CIA is about fighting civilization's desire to maintain its quality of life and avoid being conquered by 6th century thugs.

It's no coincidence that the same people endorse both agendas.

Earthday! Let me turn my AC to 76 whilst I save the planet by working at home.

34 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:07:30am

I wonder how many job openings there will be at the CIA in the near future.

I've considered it a couple times, but I've been kind of an outlaw in my past.

35 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:07:30am

re: #25 Charles

Well, for one, enormously unpopular with CIA officials. It's pretty incredible that the Obama administration thinks it's a good idea to retroactively prosecute CIA officials for simply doing their jobs to the best of their ability and knowledge. They couldn't do any more damage to the morale of the CIA if they tried.


Sarc tag, Charles -- sarc tag!

36 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:07:42am

Happy Earth Day

37 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:07:47am

re: #31 tfc3rid

I also do not think it would be wise for the Obama Administration to be 'at war' with the CIA.

I thought the CIA was at war with the Bush regime.

Leaks, and such.

38 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:08:44am

re: #37 Ben Hur

I thought the CIA was at war with the Bush regime.

Leaks, and such.

Well, one could say that as well... Leaks, NIE data, etc...

39 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:08:47am

He's giving the nutroots a reacharound.

40 gmsc  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:09:09am

re: #36 NJDhockeyfan

Happy Earth Day

The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

41 Sharmuta  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:09:19am

re: #2 Sharmuta

I guess my point in bringing up clinton is that these folks could really care less about upholding the law. They wield it hypocritically when they can use it against their ideological foes, whereas I believe in equal application of the law. If they do find real law breakers, they should be prosecuted. However- given this is the left, I'm leery this is nothing more than a witch hunt. We'll need to pay attention and make sure there isn't abuse.

42 Opinionated  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:09:26am

Unbelievable.

The men and women of the CIA should all tender their resignation the day the first indictment is unsealed. Even if just for show.

Obama would back down and the public would see his true face.

43 yesandno  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:09:31am

Remember the announcement about 'torture' that came out...

The TV was on the History Channel before that and my husband was watching a documentary on the bridge over the Kwai River that was built by prisoners of the Japanese. Mostly Australian, Dutch, etc. After seeing all that and the bodies of the survivors thin and emaciated and the stories of sickness and lack of food, medicine, and the shooting of those with fatigue who fell behind....

And then you learn that slapping someone in the face is torture...

There is no attempt at proportionality. And now they will prosecute people who did what they did by review of laws on the books already. Sad, really sad.

44 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:09:45am

re: #39 JammieWearingFool

He's giving the nutroots a reacharound.

I wonder if those early morning phone calls with MoveOn, Stephanopulous, Carville, et. al. might have influenced Mr. Obama...

45 opnion  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:09:48am

re: #32 Kenneth

Right. But I'm guessing he won't "follow the law" all the way to the Democrats in congress who approved the EIT, nor to the former CIA Director George Tenet, appointed by Bill Clinton.

I agree with that, Holder will not exactly follow this "where ever" it leads.

46 JacksonTn  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:09:50am

First ... there will be focus groups ... then behind the scene polls ... then meetings with "Progressive Caucus" (masters) ... then more focus groups ... rewrite possible charges ... more polls ... teleprompter speech teasing the issue ... more focus groups ... then ............. you know he needs to do something to pay back the extreme left wing who he got in bed with ... I really don't think he personally gives a flying f*ck if they are prosecuted or not ...

it is all about the image and votes ...

47 lazardo  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:10:02am

Good thing it's already the 23rd here.

Oh wait. 2 AM here too.

zzzzzzzzzz~

/gonna be a series of extended-Earth-day concerts on Friday on the major avenue near my house. ffffffffff~

48 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:10:04am

Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI) never was in our Armed Forces, but is head of the Armed Services Committee whose 230 page report out today blames Bush Admin for Abu Ghraib because of Bush Admin's bad attitude toward bad guys.

Per BBC website today.

My opinion: They won't be happy until former VP Cheney is sitting in colonial stocks across from the White House, so MoveOn.org and CodePink can throw things at him for the next four years.

49 Cygnus  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:10:08am

re: #10 gmsc

Unacceptable form of torture:



The tunnel entrance needs a sign that says "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here".

50 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:10:12am
51 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:10:40am

re: #25 Charles

Well, for one, enormously unpopular with CIA officials. It's pretty incredible that the Obama administration thinks it's a good idea to retroactively prosecute CIA officials for simply doing their jobs to the best of their ability and knowledge. They couldn't do any more damage to the morale of the CIA if they tried.

Could that be the intent. Undermine the CIA without really doing anything.

52 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:10:51am

Torture and the U.S. Intelligence Failure

...the president is sworn to protect the Constitution. In practical terms, this means protecting the physical security of the United States “against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” Protecting the principles of the declaration and the Constitution are meaningless without regime preservation and defending the nation.

While this all makes for an interesting seminar in political philosophy, presidents... do not have the luxury of the contemplative life. They must act on their oaths, and inaction is an action. Former U.S. President George W. Bush knew that he did not know the threat, and that in order to carry out his oath, he needed very rapidly to find out the threat. He could not know that torture would work, but he clearly did not feel that he had the right to avoid it.

Must read essay.

53 doppelganglander  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:11:21am

My first thought was that "leaving the door open" was just for show and a sop to the extreme left. I thought no one would be stupid enough to actually follow through on it. Then I remembered who we're dealing with here.

I'm concerned that even leaving the door open to prosecutions would encourage the most unhinged members of Congress to hold endless hearings and investigations. It's not good for the country and it's not fair to the decent public servants who did their job in good faith.

At the moment, I don't believe there will be prosecutions, but if things go south elsewhere (especially the economy), Obama just might set up some show trials to distract from his other failures.

54 3 wood  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:11:27am

I think you now will see a CIAre: #17 Ben Hur

Yep. I think you now will see a CIA that will go through the motions but take no risks to "connect the dots".

That means, full speed ahead on attack plans by the terrorists.

The only questions left in my mind are where and when (not if) we will get hit again and hard.

55 Kragar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:11:51am

re: #36 NJDhockeyfan

Happy Earth Day

URF DAY DAMN IT!

56 bolivar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:12:07am

re: #19 rawmuse

Suddenly I feel less safe.

I am sure Bush and Cheney do too. Sad commentary on the whole mess isn't it? Save lives and go to prison - lie and cheat to win office and be praised as a thinker and go on to be great in your own mind.

57 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:12:11am

Let's remember that a plot to fly an airplane into a tower in L.A. was busted as a result.

58 Opinionated  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:12:19am

Even as many didn't want to believe, that person who sat quietly is Wright's hate America church is really the person who was elected President.

59 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:12:32am

re: #54 3 wood

I think you now will see a CIA

Yep. I think you now will see a CIA that will go through the motions but take no risks to "connect the dots".

That means, full speed ahead on attack plans by the terrorists.

The only questions left in my mind are where and when (not if) we will get hit again and hard.

And, to put the tin foil hat on, how much power will Obama consolidate to the Federal Government at that point in time?

60 Sharmuta  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:12:46am

I shudder to think what our intelligence community will be like in 4 to 8 years. Clinton did a lot of damage- damage that was still being corrected under W. It's another huge step backwards.

61 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:13:01am

re: #57 Ben Hur

Let's remember that a plot to fly an airplane into a tower in L.A. was busted as a result.

That's just a rumor!

/really?

62 Cygnus  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:13:16am

re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

URF DAY DAMN IT!

Smurf Day!

63 Sharmuta  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:13:36am

re: #62 Cygnus

Smurf Day!

Is it?

64 livefreeor die  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:13:43am

re: #41 Sharmuta

I agree, it's a witch hunt. He gets the added bonus of distracting people from the causes of the financial meltdown and his poor showing overseas.

65 nyc redneck  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:14:07am

re: #22 Kenneth

A couple days ago, Obama visited Langley and told the staff he won't prosecute agents doing their job. Today, he suggested he might just let AG Holder go after them. Sounds like the Obama admin is playing Good Cop/Bad Cop with the CIA.

he is good at that. he avoids making decisions that might reflect poorly on him.
still voting present so he won't make a mistake. bob schiefer said to o a few wks.
ago, after 17,000 troops were designated to go into afghanistan, 'well, this is your war now.'
o shot back, 'no this is america's war, NOT mine."
he cannot handle responsibility.

66 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:14:16am

re: #54 3 wood

I think you now will see a CIA

Yep. I think you now will see a CIA that will go through the motions but take no risks to "connect the dots".

That means, full speed ahead on attack plans by the terrorists.

The only questions left in my mind are where and when (not if) we will get hit again and hard.

How about when the next administration takes over?
If I were a thinking terrorist, I'd let this dismantling process run its course.

67 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:14:18am

re: #25 Charles

Well, for one, enormously unpopular with CIA officials. It's pretty incredible that the Obama administration thinks it's a good idea to retroactively prosecute CIA officials for simply doing their jobs to the best of their ability and knowledge. They couldn't do any more damage to the morale of the CIA if they tried.

* * * *
Charles,

Yes Dems could hurt the morale & people worse: Repeat what the dems did under Sen. Frank Church, totally gut the CIA, out everyone ACTIVELY working in harm's way around the world. Get all our covert CIA agents killed like democrat idol Philip Agee tried to do...

68 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:14:20am

re: #42 Opinionated

Unbelievable.

The men and women of the CIA should all tender their resignation the day the first indictment is unsealed. Even if just for show.

Obama would back down and the public would see his true face.

To Obama people like Chavez & Daniel Ortega can be allies & friends but the CIA, who is trying to protect us, is the enemy. I feel like I live in Bizarro World.

69 brookly red  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:14:28am

re: #57 Ben Hur

Let's remember that a plot to fly an airplane into a tower in L.A. was busted as a result.

Yes. Ahd I don't think it would be in O's best interst to show people how a real leader protects their people...

70 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:14:45am

It's pretty clear Obama cares more about the safety and welfare of your average ACORN agitator than he does the CIA.

And the average American, for that matter.

When any future attack happens, he'd better be prepared to have a lot of blood on his hands. He'll own it.

71 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:14:48am

Every congressman who agitates for prosecuting the interrogators ought to have a Gitmo detainee turned loose in his district.

72 lazardo  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:15:04am

Gonna collapse onto the bed.

I leave you with the reassurance that it will be my generation, not yours, that will probably bear the biggest brunt of what is likely to come.

Nighty~

73 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:15:21am
74 albusteve  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:15:32am

maximus cynicus

75 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:15:46am

re: #70 JammieWearingFool

It's pretty clear Obama cares more about the safety and welfare of your average ACORN agitator than he does the CIA.

And the average American, for that matter.

When any future attack happens, he'd better be prepared to have a lot of blood on his hands. He'll own it.

And Civil Unrest... I would say a large portion of folks do not trust him or think he is competent right now... God forbid a devastating attack occurs... Forget it...

76 JohnnyReb  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:15:52am

re: #25 Charles

Well, for one, enormously unpopular with CIA officials. It's pretty incredible that the Obama administration thinks it's a good idea to retroactively prosecute CIA officials for simply doing their jobs to the best of their ability and knowledge. They couldn't do any more damage to the morale of the CIA if they tried.

This will not just stifle the CIA. This will go against anyone in the US government that puts a decision in writing that could potentially cause someone harm anywhere in the world. That includes military force. Military commanders rely on the judgment of their staffs and operations orders are put in writing.

77 Sharmuta  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:16:26am

re: #64 livefreeor die

I agree, it's a witch hunt. He gets the added bonus of distracting people from the causes of the financial meltdown and his poor showing overseas.

It could be a witch hunt. It could also be bloviating to pander to his base. Regardless- agents are probably more than a little nervous these days.

78 livefreeor die  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:16:27am

I wonder if Obama realizes that setting this precedent will likely come back to bite him in the tush when his term has ended.

79 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:16:41am

So the administration is now going to look at prosecuting the LAWYERS that gave their OPINION about the legalities of what the CIA could and could not do to detainees

Prosecuted for GIVING AN OPINION ,,, Advice ,,, thoughts !


Ahh .,,, I feel so ,,, progressive !

80 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:17:04am

re: #65 nyc redneck

he is good at that. he avoids making decisions that might reflect poorly on him.
still voting present so he won't make a mistake. bob schiefer said to o a few wks.
ago, after 17,000 troops were designated to go into afghanistan, 'well, this is your war now.'
o shot back, 'no this is america's war, NOT mine."
he cannot handle responsibility.

Good observation. Little things like that confirm to me that Obama has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He feels entitled to special treatment and its' always somebody else is to blame for problems. Never him.

81 ConservatismNow!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:17:08am

re: #77 Sharmuta

It could be a witch hunt. It could also be bloviating to pander to his base. Regardless- agents are probably more than a little nervous these days.

Is there a difference, Sharm?

82 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:17:09am

re: #53 doppelganglander

My first thought was that "leaving the door open" was just for show and a sop to the extreme left. I thought no one would be stupid enough to actually follow through on it. Then I remembered who we're dealing with here.

I'm concerned that even leaving the door open to prosecutions would encourage the most unhinged members of Congress to hold endless hearings and investigations. It's not good for the country and it's not fair to the decent public servants who did their job in good faith.

At the moment, I don't believe there will be prosecutions, but if things go south elsewhere (especially the economy), Obama just might set up some show trials to distract from his other failures.

Our tax dollars hard at work!

Maybe we can have more hearings on steroids in baseball! WHOO HOOO!
/

83 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:17:11am

re: #73 buzzsawmonkey

From the prior thread:

Just as jiggering the census count through ACORN's participation creates de facto reapportionment without having to actually go through the messy mechanics of doing so, scaring the intelligence community into insular inaction (not that they've been balls of fire up to now) accomplishes re-erecting the wall of separation between them that pertained in the Clinton years without the necessity of hearings or legislation or executive orders.

In both cases, the end is accomplished by "soft" means, which are harder to record and track, therefore harder to call to account--and harder to undo. They continue Obama's college-era record of not leaving a paper trail. And they play merry hell with the most basic functioning of the government.

FCBBHO

84 Pupdawg  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:17:13am

More lefty political points and press mileage with the MSM will be had if he does or they do. So, expect him to break another promise, to be aka, 'Obama lied, they will be tried.'

85 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:17:43am

re: #2 Sharmuta

Yeah.... except I remember the clinton administration.

And more than one of the O's administration appointees, who have had some tax "issues" if I recall.

86 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:17:43am

re: #25 Charles

Well, for one, enormously unpopular with CIA officials. It's pretty incredible that the Obama administration thinks it's a good idea to retroactively prosecute CIA officials for simply doing their jobs to the best of their ability and knowledge. They couldn't do any more damage to the morale of the CIA if they tried.

Charles -

Prosecutions and punishments of those involved with "Enhanced Interrogation Methods" is what usually happens to the higher ups of a nation that loses a war - not of a political party that loses an election.

-S-

87 albusteve  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:17:44am

re: #79 sattv4u2

So the administration is now going to look at prosecuting the LAWYERS that gave their OPINION about the legalities of what the CIA could and could not do to detainees

Prosecuted for GIVING AN OPINION ,,, Advice ,,, thoughts !

Ahh .,,, I feel so ,,, progressive !

won't neve happen...neva

88 bolivar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:17:53am

re: #78 livefreeor die

Nah, the messiah will live forever - reruns you know!

89 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:17:59am

Terror Threat Against George Bush Statue in Eureka Ca


On the announcements of the formation of a local Eureka Ca. committee and fund raising for the construction of a bust or statue of former president George W. Bush, local and state left wing radicals have announced terror threats and plans to destroy the proposed statue by explosion.

The local community discussion forum Topix, where the announcement was made has become rife with veiled and open calls for domestic terrorism.

The statue, planned for an as yet un announced location in Eureka Ca., approximately 300 miles north of San Francisco, is still on track according to local radio host Tom Fredriksen of Old Glory Radio.

90 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:18:01am

re: #79 sattv4u2

So the administration is now going to look at prosecuting the LAWYERS that gave their OPINION about the legalities of what the CIA could and could not do to detainees

Prosecuted for GIVING AN OPINION ,,, Advice ,,, thoughts !


Ahh .,,, I feel so ,,, progressive !

Those damn thought crimes!

91 Opinionated  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:18:05am

re: #68 NJDhockeyfan

I feel like I live in Bizarro World.

Except that Bizarro World is not real.

Obama is all too real.

92 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:18:16am

re: #75 tfc3rid

And Civil Unrest... I would say a large portion of folks do not trust him or think he is competent right now... God forbid a devastating attack occurs... Forget it...

I read yesterday or the night before that his Rasmussen "strongly approve" and "strongly disapprove" numbers are almost dead even right now. I believe he's at a +2 when the two are compared. His general approval rating was something like 54/45.

So you're right - the country is already fairly evenly divided.

93 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:18:30am
It looks like the Obama administration is getting ready to break their promise not to prosecute CIA officials

I read this less as a threat to go after CIA officials (in the sense of officers), than to go after the much juicier political targets, such as Douglas Feith.

Third world politics, brought to our shores.

94 yesandno  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:18:41am

re: #63 Sharmuta

Is it?

Must be....I'm blue about the whole day.

95 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:18:47am

re: #77 Sharmuta

It could be a witch hunt. It could also be bloviating to pander to his base. Regardless- agents are probably more than a little nervous these days.

Which means a share of the damage has already been done.

96 irongrampa  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:19:12am

But we mustn't wish him to fail.

97 DaddyG  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:19:29am

Does anyone still wonder how a President votes present?

98 Russkilitlover  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:19:30am

re: #2 Sharmuta

Yeah.... except I remember the clinton administration.

And Dodd, and Raines, and Geithner, and Goerlik, etc.

99 Kragar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:19:52am

re: #96 irongrampa

But we mustn't wish him to fail.

I dont wish for it, merely expect it.

100 doppelganglander  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:19:54am

re: #48 alegrias

Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI) never was in our Armed Forces, but is head of the Armed Services Committee whose 230 page report out today blames Bush Admin for Abu Ghraib because of Bush Admin's bad attitude toward bad guys.

This reminds me a lot of the underpants gnomes' plan for world domination on South Park:

Step 1: The Bush Administration thinks it's okay to torture prisoners.
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Low-level soldiers with little supervision at Abu Ghraib do kinky stuff to prisoners.

Setting aside the fact that Step 1 is bullshit in the first place, if they can come up with any connection between steps 1 and 3 that do not violate all the laws of logic, sanity, time and physics, I'd be amazed.

101 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:19:58am

re: #92 capitalist piglet

I read yesterday or the night before that his Rasmussen "strongly approve" and "strongly disapprove" numbers are almost dead even right now. I believe he's at a +2 when the two are compared. His general approval rating was something like 54/45.

So you're right - the country is already fairly evenly divided.

Yes, I read the same thing. 46% strongly approve of him, 44% strongly disapprove... I found that astounding... There is little in the middle there... Very polarizing.

102 Russkilitlover  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:20:00am

re: #98 Russkilitlover

And Dodd, and Raines, and Geithner, and Goerlik, etc.

And Feinstein

103 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:20:14am

re: #96 irongrampa

But we mustn't wish him to fail.

I demand a repeal of the single upding rule.

104 Opinionated  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:20:17am

re: #93 Occasional Reader

Third world politics, brought to our shores.

The American people voted for change. They'll get change.

105 3 wood  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:20:57am

re: #59 tfc3rid

And, to put the tin foil hat on, how much power will Obama consolidate to the Federal Government at that point in time?

That part I don't know, I'm an economist not a political scientist.

But take a look at the message sent so far by Obama.

1. Apologize to the world and be warming up to desposts like Castro and Chavez.

2. Authorize force against the pirates (which I give hive kudos for), but say that strong interrogation of terrorists is torture and prosecutable.

3. Release top secret information against the advice of staff and be open to prosecuting past policy makers fordoing their best to keep this country safe.

4. Sign papers to close GITMO.

Best case, it's contradictory and windsocking, worst case it's destrucutuve to our national security.

106 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:20:58am

re: #65 nyc redneck

o shot back, 'no this is america's war, NOT mine."

Oh, gosh. Anyone up for a news search to see how many times Obama referred to "Bush's war(s)" during his campaign?

This is of a piece with his "I was only 3 years old" line at the Summit of the Americas. Things he like are all his; things he doesn't like... hey, that's America's problem, not mine.

107 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:21:35am

re: #105 3 wood

But wither way, our enemies sit back and watch us destroy ourselves in ways they could never dream.

108 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:21:51am

Here is an op-ed at the Washington Post by David Ignatius that describes the chilling effect of these decisions, on the people working there and ultimately, our safety. The columnist in the end comes out and says "America will be better off, in the long run, for Obama's decision to expose the past practice of torture and ban its future use". I'm not sure I agree with that, but the rest of it makes some good points.

The first few paragraphs:

At the Central Intelligence Agency, it's known as "slow rolling." That's what agency officers sometimes do on politically sensitive assignments. They go through the motions; they pass cables back and forth; they take other jobs out of the danger zone; they cover their backsides.

Sad to say, it's slow roll time at Langley after the release of interrogation memos that, in the words of one veteran officer, "hit the agency like a car bomb in the driveway." President Obama promised CIA officers that they won't be prosecuted for carrying out lawful orders, but the people on the firing line don't believe him. They think the memos have opened a new season of investigation and retribution.

The lesson for younger officers is obvious: Keep your head down. Duck the assignments that carry political risk. Stay away from a counterterrorism program that has become a career hazard.

109 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:22:55am

re: #107 tfc3rid

But wither way, our enemies sit back and watch us destroy ourselves in ways they could never dream.

Maybe.
I view it as "in ways they warned us about 40 years ago".

110 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:23:12am

re: #106 Occasional Reader

Oh, gosh. Anyone up for a news search to see how many times Obama referred to "Bush's war(s)" during his campaign?

This is of a piece with his "I was only 3 years old" line at the Summit of the Americas. Things he like are all his; things he doesn't like... hey, that's America's problem, not mine.

Bill Ayers only got his followers to blow up cops when I was like..uh..7.

/sarc only in that I don't remember the age Obama stated with that excuse...

111 Rexatosis  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:23:36am

POTUS Obama should give serious consideration to the precedent he and AG Holder would be setting by essentially criminalizing a policy difference between the left of the Democrat Party and right of the Republican Party over the methods used to fight the War on Terror (or "Overseas Contingency"). Any controversial decision made by the Obama Administration, regardless of the intentions, could possibly lead to criminal proceedings the next elected Administration deem such controversial decisions to be without "Constitutional" or "legal" merit. This does not bode well for the health of the Republic. We have enough problems getting good people to run for, or serve in, public offices as it is. Now with potential criminal proceedings based on policy disputes it will be near impossible to get anyone to sacrifice their time and possible liberty to serve. Secondly those who do serve or run for office will be loathe to make any decisions for fear of prosecution. A government of the people, by the people, for the people cannot function properly under such conditions. Failure of governance invariably leads to tyranny. This is a very serious matter and a supposed "Constitutional Law Professor" who knew history would know better. Just look at the fall of Rome, and Weimar.

112 Desert Dog  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:24:01am

I think we should prosecute the American war criminals from Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Iraq and Afghanistan too....why stop with this. Put them all in jail!

/code pinko

can you say "can of worms"?

113 Hengineer  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:24:13am

Well holy shit...

having read books like MIG-29 Pilot and such, reminds me of the situation would happen every time a new General Secretary showed up in the USSR, everything the old General Secretary did was all of a sudden "illegal" and his name should be "stricken from the record books" kind of stuff.

New President, all of a sudden everything the last one did was evil and we should prosecute his henchmen.

114 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:24:32am

re: #17 Ben Hur

Slow Roll Time At Langley


Smart Power.

What sort of crazed hyper-right-wing ODS-afflicted Stormfront-affiliated rag is this, this... "Washington Post" thing you're linking to, anyway?!

115 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:24:41am

re: #68 NJDhockeyfan

To Obama people like Chavez & Daniel Ortega can be allies & friends but the CIA, who is trying to protect us, is the enemy. I feel like I live in Bizarro World.

* * * *
Rogue CIA agent Philip Agee died in Cuba last year, after he defected there, having caused CIA agents to get killed all over the world by his outing of his own covert CIA colleagues.

Philip Agee was LIONIZED by leftists for destroying our CIA, just when islamist jihadism was getting global traction. We were left BLIND without critical CIA boots on the ground, all over the world, by Agee's perfidy. And democrats cheered and blamed the CIA.

116 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:24:59am

re: #108 reine.de.tout

Stay away from a counterterrorism program that has become a career hazard.

Translation: Americans will die in a coming terrorist attack.

117 Big Steve  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:25:24am

Does anyone have an idea why this is being brought up now. I had thought that the Administration had successfully back burnered this. There must be a reason this came back now? Someone is moving the scenery behind the curtain.

118 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:25:42am

The Narcissist in Chief

Charles Krauthammer may really be onto something here in understanding the un-American behavior of our own American president Barack Obama. (see video below)

Krauthammer points out the fact that, unlike most presidents, Barack Obama refuses to defend his own country against any attacks made on it by some of the most notorious thugs in the world.

Who could imagine President Reagan or either of the President Bushes not defending their country against the anti-American rantings of people like Hugo Chavez and Daniel Ortega?

Obama responded to Ortega’s recent anti-American diatribe with “I’m grateful that President Ortega did not blame me for the things that occurred when I was three months old.”

Krauthammer really nailed it when he asked, “Does the narcissism of this man know no bounds?”

Youtube Video
119 Kragar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:26:04am

re: #116 Kenneth

Stay away from a counterterrorism program that has become a career hazard.

Translation: Americans will die in a coming terrorist attack.

Yes, but the world will like us again then, dont you see?

/spit

120 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:26:10am

I'm going to take a nap. Could someone please wake me on November 6th 2012 !

121 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:26:41am

One of the few network programs I like is The Unit.

I wonder if they'll work this nice scenario into their plots next year. Find and identify a target, then back off prosecution because of the risk of repercussions to their family and friends ...

122 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:26:51am

re: #114 Occasional Reader

What sort of crazed hyper-right-wing ODS-afflicted Stormfront-affiliated rag is this, this... "Washington Post" thing you're linking to, anyway?!


Tea Party Times?

123 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:26:56am

re: #117 Big Steve

Very good question. It's clear this thing has been gamed out by Obama's inner team. They know where they are heading with this. Do we?

124 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:27:05am

re: #117 Big Steve

Does anyone have an idea why this is being brought up now. I had thought that the Administration had successfully back burnered this. There must be a reason this came back now? Someone is moving the scenery behind the curtain.

All roads lead to Rahm.

125 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:27:06am

re: #101 tfc3rid

Yes, I read the same thing. 46% strongly approve of him, 44% strongly disapprove... I found that astounding... There is little in the middle there... Very polarizing.

This is the latest - there's a bit more middle ground than that (could you be mistaken about the exact numbers you read?), but it's not looking great for Obama:

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Wednesday shows that 34% of the nation's voters now Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Thirty-two percent (32%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of +2

126 brookly red  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:27:21am

re: #117 Big Steve

Does anyone have an idea why this is being brought up now. I had thought that the Administration had successfully back burnered this. There must be a reason this came back now? Someone is moving the scenery behind the curtain.

/breadred meat & circus for the base?

127 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:27:40am

re: #117 Big Steve

Does anyone have an idea why this is being brought up now. I had thought that the Administration had successfully back burnered this. There must be a reason this came back now? Someone is moving the scenery behind the curtain.

I swear my "tinfoil hat sense" was tingling also. I swear my 'gut' feeling is that there is something we aren't seeing that they are doing even more '...sinister...' as you say, 'behind the curtain'.

But that's just me. (no sarc either.)

128 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:27:48am

re: #118 Ben Hur

Who could imagine President Reagan or either of the President Bushes not defending their country against the anti-American rantings of people like Hugo Chavez and Daniel Ortega?

Hell, I can't even imagine Bill Clinton not doing so, never mind Reagan or Bush.

129 dhg4  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:27:50am

re: #4 rawmuse

Why would anyone go in to public service in this environment?

John Podhoretz's point.

130 3 wood  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:28:11am

re: #66 jwb7605


How about when the next administration takes over?
If I were a thinking terrorist, I'd let this dismantling process run its course.

I think the first chance that an enemy cell has to hit us now they will take it to be heroes.

131 ConservatismNow!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:28:24am

re: #128 Occasional Reader

Hell, I can't even imagine Bill Clinton not doing so, never mind Reagan or Bush.

I could imagine Clinton just not doing anything.

132 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:28:26am

re: #111 Rexatosis

POTUS Obama should give serious consideration to the precedent he and AG Holder would be setting by essentially criminalizing a policy difference between the left of the Democrat Party and right of the Republican Party over the methods used to fight the War on Terror (or "Overseas Contingency"). Any controversial decision made by the Obama Administration, regardless of the intentions, could possibly lead to criminal proceedings the next elected Administration deem such controversial decisions to be without "Constitutional" or "legal" merit. This does not bode well for the health of the Republic. We have enough problems getting good people to run for, or serve in, public offices as it is. Now with potential criminal proceedings based on policy disputes it will be near impossible to get anyone to sacrifice their time and possible liberty to serve. Secondly those who do serve or run for office will be loathe to make any decisions for fear of prosecution. A government of the people, by the people, for the people cannot function properly under such conditions. Failure of governance invariably leads to tyranny. This is a very serious matter and a supposed "Constitutional Law Professor" who knew history would know better. Just look at the fall of Rome, and Weimar.

That's all well and good.
But FCBBHO has already undertaken the "serious considerations" of his actions IMHO.

133 Russkilitlover  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:28:26am

re: #60 Sharmuta

I shudder to think what our intelligence community will be like in 4 to 8 years weeks.

Obama's on a fast track dontcha know.

134 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:28:49am

re: #128 Occasional Reader

Hell, I can't even imagine Bill Clinton not doing so, never mind Reagan or Bush.

Clinton would say, "I hope President Ortega wont blame me for things my country did while I was f*cking his wife....."

135 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:29:33am

re: #128 Occasional Reader

Hell, I can't even imagine Bill Clinton not doing so, never mind Reagan or Bush.

"I know first hand America has better women than BOTH of your countries..." -Bill
/The Passion of the Bill

136 ConservatismNow!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:29:39am

Oh hey! I didn't even notice that I passed 1000 posts!

137 dhg4  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:29:50am

re: #121 jwb7605

One of the few network programs I like is The Unit.

I wonder if they'll work this nice scenario into their plots next year. Find and identify a target, then back off prosecution because of the risk of repercussions to their family and friends ...

The Unit makes 24 seem like the Smurfs.

138 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:29:54am

re: #130 3 wood

I think the first chance that an enemy cell has to hit us now they will take it to be heroes.

I hope that you are right and I am wrong.
"Reaction and Recovery time" is longer if I'm right.

139 Throbert McGee  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:29:58am

Throbert and Keroppi™ the Frog are here to remind you:

It's not just Earth Day -- it's someone's birthday!

Q: Can you name three things that are green on the outside and red on the inside?
1. Keroppi™ the Frog
2. a watermelon
3. ...?

140 3 wood  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:30:01am

re: #106 Occasional Reader


This is of a piece with his "I was only 3 years old" line at the Summit of the Americas. Things he like are all his; things he doesn't like... hey, that's America's problem, not mine.

I'm starting to think that he feels this is all about him.

141 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:30:07am

re: #118 Ben Hur

Obama responded to Ortega’s recent anti-American diatribe with “I’m grateful that President Ortega did not blame me for the things that occurred when I was three months old.”

Krauthammer really nailed it when he asked, “Does the narcissism of this man know no bounds?”

Wow. Obama is sick. Text book case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

142 rawmuse  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:30:14am

Whew, I just peeked at the SFGATE comments regarding the suicide of CFO Kellerman. The crazy is thick and deep over there.

143 VioletTiger  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:30:18am

I can't say what Obama will do, but I do think this is a real test for him. Previous 'tests' had easy answers IMO. Will he cave to pressure from the left and the UN and go with the answer that is popular with them, or risk Pandora's box in the US?

I also think the entire discussion has made us less safe. We must be viewed more weakly in the world and if the day ever comes that we have somebody in custody who knows something that will mean many lives, what will he do then? He foolishly painted himself into a corner to appease and be popular.

144 realwest  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:30:28am

I wonder if A.G. Holder and/or President Obama realizes that all of the interrogation techniques used, and the intelligence received (or not) therefrom was completely disclosed by the CIA to Nancy Pelosi and other top ranking congressional leaders (all Democrats, btw) and they raised no hue and cry about it. Indeed - and to their credit - they didn't discuss, afaik, anything disclosed in those intelligence briefings?
Does anyone think that Holder or Obama intends to "investigate" Pelosi and others as to what they knew, when did they know it and what did they do or not do about it?

145 doppelganglander  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:30:38am

re: #126 brookly red

/breadred meat vegan, cruelty-free meals & circus for the base?

FTFY

146 Big Steve  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:30:39am

re: #127 Oh no...Sand People!

I swear my "tinfoil hat sense" was tingling also. I swear my 'gut' feeling is that there is something we aren't seeing that they are doing even more '...sinister...' as you say, 'behind the curtain'.

But that's just me. (no sarc either.)

I am wondering if this is a timing thing. Keep in the news, coil the springs so it is a mid-term election issue?

147 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:30:54am
148 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:31:00am

re: #142 rawmuse

Whew, I just peeked at the SFGATE comments regarding the suicide of CFO Kellerman. The crazy is thick and deep over there.

Avoid Digg....

149 dhg4  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:31:01am

re: #139 Throbert McGee

Throbert and Keroppi™ the Frog are here to remind you:

It's not just Earth Day -- it's someone's birthday!

Q: Can you name three things that are green on the outside and red on the inside?
1. Keroppi™ the Frog
2. a watermelon
3. ...?

It's my Anniversary!

150 Gus  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:31:37am

Another day, another display of the passive-aggressive relationship the Obama administration has with the CIA and the overall intelligence community. This latest threat to prosecute CIA officials is not only a threat to the those involved in the interrogations but will only serve to hamper current and future information gathering.

Those involved will now be hesitant to act for fear of being prosecuted by an overly sensitive Eric Holder. In the end if he does not prosecute the damage is already done. It reminds me of how metropolitan police departments react when they are guided by activist citizen groups in so called police brutality cases. In this case Eric Holder is the leader of the activist group hampering the role and stoking fear within the intelligence community.

151 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:31:41am

re: #137 dhg4

The Unit makes 24 seem like the Smurfs.

True.
Maybe they can get Jack Bauer to ignore a threat.

152 DaddyG  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:31:45am

re: #119 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir) Unfortunately a good portion of the world will only lke us beter if we don't exist as a free nation any more.

153 irongrampa  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:32:10am

re: #117 Big Steve


I suspect the ultimate outcome is to attempt to drag Bush and Cheney in front of a court. The structuring of such is being done so as to avoid having Obama being blamed for any undesirable outcome.

As I understand, the original, those who acted on legal advice while working for the previous admin were not to be prosecuted. That opens the door for a Bush/Cheney trial.

A sop to the left? Maybe, but it's doubtful. I think they intend to drive this, under the preconditions I set out.

154 gmsc  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:32:14am

re: #139 Throbert McGee

Throbert and Keroppi™ the Frog are here to remind you:

It's not just Earth Day -- it's someone's birthday!

Appropriately, it's also Immanuel Kant's birthday.

(The only April 22nd birthday I consider important, however, is that of the late Bettie Page.)

155 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:32:16am

Thanks for posting on this, Charles. I expect that you'd been researching this for some time (due to its hyperventilation factor).

I've already posted on it but my feelings haven't changed:
(1) it amounts to ex-post-facto law, which is antiConstitutional and even worse than a Bill of Attainder. Hello? Julius Caesar, anyone?
(2) it is grossly irresponsible for a sitting President even to allow this banana-republic nonsense to propogate unchallenged.

156 UFO TOFU  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:32:25am

re: #139 Throbert McGee

Happy Earth Day!

157 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:32:33am
158 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:32:49am

re: #134 Ben Hur

Clinton would say, "I hope President Ortega wont blame me for things my country did while I was f*cking his wife....."

Hm. Ortega's wife. She's no Carla Bruni.

But then again, Bubba was never very picky.

159 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:33:20am

Also, my initial thought was that O was letting his opponents work themselves up in a lather again. Looks like if he was hoping Charles would have his back on this one, he's going to be disappointed! :^)

160 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:33:27am
161 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:33:29am

"JFK said America will pay any price to defend freedom. Obama wouldn't even speak up to defend it." - Fred Barnes

162 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:33:44am

re: #140 3 wood

I'm starting to think that he feels this is all about him.

Quoting from memory from a recent Mark Steyn piece... his attitude seems to be that American history is just a sort of dreary backstory to the biopic about Obama.

163 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:33:53am

re: #146 Big Steve

I am wondering if this is a timing thing. Keep in the news, coil the springs so it is a mid-term election issue?

I was chatting with a guy here in Manila, PH, and he asked, is there corruption in the American Gov't like we have here. My answer was to the effect that, "We have some of the best means of information gathering, many watchdog groups, great communications infrastructure, yet they still manage to get away with it...we are either the dumbest people in the world and are being played to perfection, or they know every vile trick in the book."

I think it is a lot of A, and all of B.

164 jcbunga  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:33:56am

Follow the law...except the tax law or illegals.

We are witnessing the completion of a royal gentry class.

165 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:34:16am

re: #134 Ben Hur

Clinton would say, "I hope President Ortega wont blame me for things my country did while I was f*cking his wife....."

* * * *
Note: Bianca Jagger was Nicaraguan and wore jungle greens to party with Bill Clinton, BUT she was Mick Jagger's ex, not Ortega's!

166 gmsc  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:34:17am

re: #156 UFO TOFU

Happy Earth Day!

Again, you can have "Happy" or you can have "Earth Day", but you cant have both.

167 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:34:26am

re: #157 buzzsawmonkey

Who said Huitzilopochtli

SOMEONE HELP BUZZSAW! HE'S CHOKING!

168 3 wood  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:34:41am

re: #112 Desert Dog

I think we should prosecute the American war criminals from Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Iraq and Afghanistan too....why stop with this. Put them all in jail!

/code pinko

can you say "can of worms"?

Heck, let's go back tothe Civil War and try General Sherman postoumously.

After the Confederates started planting the equivlanet of land mines in the roads when he was on his march to the sea, he took some prisoners and made them march up front and find the mines the hard way.

169 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:34:53am

re: #115 alegrias

* * * *
Rogue CIA agent Philip Agee died in Cuba last year, after he defected there, having caused CIA agents to get killed all over the world by his outing of his own covert CIA colleagues.

Philip Agee was LIONIZED by leftists for destroying our CIA, just when islamist jihadism was getting global traction. We were left BLIND without critical CIA boots on the ground, all over the world, by Agee's perfidy. And democrats cheered and blamed the CIA.

alegrias -

And, as I recall he died of something that would have been treatable in the US in an Emergency Room. So much for "SICKO" - the Movie.

-S-

170 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:35:29am

re: #167 Occasional Reader

Heimlich maneuver, STAT!

171 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:35:32am

re: #57 Ben Hur

Let's remember that a plot to fly an airplane into a tower in L.A. was busted as a result.

Obama will avoid prosecuting people who actually carried out interrogations, and instead hold them up as "victims" of Bush administration policy.

172 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:35:32am
173 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:35:48am

re: #168 3 wood

Heck, let's go back tothe Civil War and try General Sherman postoumously.

After the Confederates started planting the equivlanet of land mines in the roads when he was on his march to the sea, he took some prisoners and made them march up front and find the mines the hard way.

Investigate General Washington! America is founded on lies!

/////

174 debutaunt  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:35:48am

re: #161 Kenneth

"JFK said America will pay any price to defend freedom. Obama wouldn't even speak up to defend it." - Fred Barnes

JFK could define Capitalism.

175 voirdire  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:36:33am

"President Obama hinted at another step in that direction when he said today that he is open to the idea of bringing criminal charges against the Justice Department lawyers who wrote opinions to the effect that waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods could legally be used on al Qaeda detainees." - power line

176 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:37:21am

re: #144 realwest

I wonder if A.G. Holder and/or President Obama realizes that all of the interrogation techniques used, and the intelligence received (or not) therefrom was completely disclosed by the CIA to Nancy Pelosi and other top ranking congressional leaders (all Democrats, btw) and they raised no hue and cry about it. Indeed - and to their credit - they didn't discuss, afaik, anything disclosed in those intelligence briefings?
Does anyone think that Holder or Obama intends to "investigate" Pelosi and others as to what they knew, when did they know it and what did they do or not do about it?

* * * *
Pelosi cared enough about California, she didn't want Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to hurt her state. To think waterboarding him, saved California! Suppose Bush Admin hadn't cared enough...

177 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:37:24am

re: #150 Gus 802

Another day, another display of the passive-aggressive relationship the Obama administration has with the CIA and the overall intelligence community. This latest threat to prosecute CIA officials is not only a threat to the those involved in the interrogations but will only serve to hamper current and future information gathering.

The CIA are not nice people. They ran a leak campaign against George W Bush which is partly how the Republican brand has got so tarnished.

That's beyond the general incompetence of the place. I think the agency should have been overhauled and everyone important fired on 12 September 2001.

I expect the CIA will stab Obama very hard and very often in the back.

I don't relish the thought, BTW; it's the kind of "Obama failure" that won't be his fault, directly, and will harm the rest of the nation worse than it will harm Obama's agenda.

178 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:37:35am

re: #172 buzzsawmonkey

No, but I do have a Quetzalcoating on my tongue.

Let me know if you choke again 'Inca'se you need help.

179 UFO TOFU  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:37:48am

re: #166 gmsc

Again, you can have "Happy" or you can have "Earth Day", but you cant have both.

Aw crap, I didn't know there were rules...

180 Noam Chumpski  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:37:55am

When they released the memos they intentionally withheld certain parts that would seem to point to the "positive" effects and confirmed results. This is why Cheney (who has read them in their entirety) is calling for them to be released, un-edited.

If you assume that they are willing to politicize the memos, then I am nervous that they would be willing to go for a show trial as well.

In the end, you have to take Obama's word until he breaks his word.

Steven Hayes (weekly standard) has an article on this... somewhere...

181 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:37:59am

re: #171 Ward Cleaver

Obama will avoid prosecuting people who actually carried out interrogations, and instead hold them up as "victims" of Bush administration policy.


The One absolutely believes that 9/11 was America's fault (not that the US carried it out).

And you can't tell me that the majority of American leftist university professors disagree with all the crap Ortega and the whacko leftist SA leaders believe.

182 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:38:06am

re: #172 buzzsawmonkey

No, but I do have a Quetzalcoating on my tongue.

Thank goodness, I thought you were choking on your ChichKen pItza.

183 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:38:16am

re: #174 debutaunt

JFK could define Capitalism.

debutaunt -

Considering his Tax Cuts - JFK just might have agreed with Capitalism. It certainly agreed with him.

-S-

184 JohnnyReb  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:38:17am

re: #175 voirdire

"President Obama hinted at another step in that direction when he said today that he is open to the idea of bringing criminal charges against the Justice Department lawyers who wrote opinions to the effect that waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods could legally be used on al Qaeda detainees." - power line

The use of the word "opinion" is most probably the scariest thing I have ever seen written in a US news article.

185 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:38:20am

re: #172 buzzsawmonkey

No, but I do have a Quetzalcoating on my tongue.

Nahuatl we do?!?

186 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:38:38am
187 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:38:55am

re: #139 Throbert McGee

Throbert and Keroppi™ the Frog are here to remind you:

It's not just Earth Day -- it's someone's birthday!

Q: Can you name three things that are green on the outside and red on the inside?
1. Keroppi™ the Frog
2. a watermelon
3. ...?

Happy Birthday, mummified Communist dude!

/bill and ted

188 gmsc  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:39:00am

re: #185 wrenchwench

Nahuatl we do?!?

Itza not a good time to Chicken out.

189 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:39:02am

re: #25 Charles

Well, for one, enormously unpopular with CIA officials. It's pretty incredible that the Obama administration thinks it's a good idea to retroactively prosecute CIA officials for simply doing their jobs to the best of their ability and knowledge. They couldn't do any more damage to the morale of the CIA if they tried.

I wholeheartedly agree. The CIA, and the nation's national security, are going to suffer the more for the actions and statements by the Administration. Had the Administration put out a coherent blanket statement saying that there would be no prosecutions - period - then it would have done the job. But they had to suck up to the fringe left who wants scalps - leaving the CIA in the lurch over policy decisions.

190 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:39:18am
191 DaddyG  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:39:37am

re: #171 Ward Cleaver

Obama will avoid prosecuting people who actually carried out interrogations, and instead hold them up as "victims" of Bush administration policy.

...but still destroy their careers and the programs they work in during the process. Its a twofer!

192 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:39:38am

re: #186 buzzsawmonkey

As long as you're fully e-quipu-ed for emergencies.

Mayan'be I am...Mayan'be I aint...

/stretching...sorry..

193 realwest  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:39:51am

Well it's been fun just reading the comments on this thread, but I have to leave now. If anyone has any idea of what the answer might be to my question in #144 I'd appreciate it if y'all would go ahead and post it. I'll be checking back in later.
Have a great day y'all and I hope to get the chance to see you all down the road!

194 HelloDare  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:40:05am

Has anybody brought this up?

What about Jay Rockefeller and Dianne Feinstein on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence? Not only did they know what was going on, they were okay with it.

I'm sure a lot of Democrats are giving him heat on this. A lot of them are going to be "probed" by the defense attorneys.

195 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:40:13am

re: #181 Ben Hur

The One absolutely believes that 9/11 was America's fault (not that the US carried it out).

And you can't tell me that the majority of American leftist university professors disagree with all the crap Ortega and the whacko leftist SA leaders believe.

I don't know if Obama thinks 9/11 was our fault (from our foreign policy standpoint) but I sure do think that the majority of let-thinking folks love what ORtega, Castro and Chavez are peddling...

196 VioletTiger  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:40:25am

re: #174 debutaunt

JFK could define Capitalism.


JFK would not recognize today's democratic party.

197 Gus  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:40:42am

This reminds me of Dirty Harry:

Insp. Harry Callahan = the Intelligence Community
The Mayor = Barack Obama
Dist. Atty. William T. Rothko = Eric Holder

198 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:40:44am

re: #195 tfc3rid

I don't know if Obama thinks 9/11 was our fault (from our foreign policy standpoint) but I sure do think that the majority of let-thinking folks love what ORtega, Castro and Chavez are peddling...


My gut tells me he would blame our foreign policy.

199 Kragar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:41:04am

re: #196 VioletTiger

JFK would not recognize today's democratic party.

JFK would be a right wing extremist today.

200 pittrader1988  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:41:25am

His motto is Bob Dylan's "Blowin in The Wind"

Obama will prosecute-unless internal polls say he is alienating the left center that he won decisively.

Say what you want about Bush, he had a guiding set of principles and values that he governed by. You might disagree with Bush, but you knew where he was coming from.

Obama is not like that. Panders to the far left. Takes polls to make sure he doesn't offend the center. Being black, he can play the race/victim card for a little bit-but it won't last for long.

201 looking closely  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:41:26am

Ultimately, I don't think he will, but this throws a bone to the uber-Leftists nutroots and Moveon.org types that form a good bit of Obama's "base".

Unfortunately, this also has multiple negative consequences, such as convincing intelligence agents not to do anything that might be perceived as controversial for fear of FUTURE prosecution by an as-yet un-elected administration.

Its also completely chicken-sh#t and devoid of leadership.

Whatever happened to "the buck stops here", and "I'm a President of the future"?

If Obama is going to pursue this, let him say so. If he isn't going to pursue it, let him say that. The waffling is not only unbecoming of the country's nominal chief executive, but its also letting good people hang in the wind waiting.

202 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:41:28am

re: #186 buzzsawmonkey

As long as you're fully e-quipu-ed for emergencies.

If I quechu'a starting another pun thread, aym...ar...a... not responsible for my actions.

203 razorbacker  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:41:32am

I guess that I haven't been following this closely enough. I was under the impression that the actual agents that did the interrogations were not going to be prosecuted, but the the lawyers who had signed off on the methods of interrogation might be prosecuted.

Now, let your mind not be cluttered with mental images of packs of ravening lawyers going after their own like a hyena pack turning on one of their own that has been wounded. We need lawyers. Who else can parse the legalese that they write their laws with? Lawyers, that's who.

The real impact will come when the next administration tries to get legal opinions on controversial subjects. Who will be willing to step up and take a swing at a subject that may come back to bite them where they sit?

204 3 wood  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:41:41am

re: #142 rawmuse

Whew, I just peeked at the SFGATE comments regarding the suicide of CFO Kellerman. The crazy is thick and deep over there.

Probably the same stuff I saw at HuffPo before they started deleting it. I found a gold mine of crazy left wing stuff, cheerign that he died, rooting for other CEO's to commit suicide, blaming Bush the whole 9 yards. Just about the time I was going to copy it for posterity sake, they deleted the really sick and twisted stuff.

You know it has to be bad when HuffPo thinks it's over the line.

205 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:41:42am

Who here has read Amity Shlaes' "The Forgotten Man" questioning the success of the "New Deal"? Ms. Shlaes wrote this before our current breakdown, and she used to write for the Wall Street Journal. Interesting parallels between then & now, retribution as a substitute for an absent recovery....

She used the same data as the Obama Administration's "great Depression" economist, Christina Roemer, but came up with different conclusions, not surprising.

PS, "The Forgotten Man" of the title? It's the tax payer.

206 realwest  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:41:55am

re: #194 HelloDare
Ah, please see my #144 above!

207 DaddyG  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:41:55am

re: #178 Oh no...Sand People!

Let me know if you choke again 'Inca'se you need help.


Olmec ya a nice cool drink.

208 voirdire  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:42:11am

Where have all the xochitls gone?

209 opnion  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:42:20am

re: #124 sattv4u2

All roads lead to Rahm.

Ah, you are wise Grasshopper.

210 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:42:32am

re: #177 Zimriel

The CIA is not monolithic. There are Republicans, Democrats and Independents in the agency. A few activist Democrats managed to leak a lot of information and thereby scuttle Bush. Obama's good cop/bad cop approach may well be aimed at "depoliticizing" the CIA, by which I mean, getting rid of Republicans in the agency. He's telling the Democrats in the CIA, give up the bad guys, and we all know who they are, wink, wink... and the rest of you will be fine.

Expect a flood of resignations, retirements and layoffs from Langley.

211 3 wood  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:43:03am

re: #143 VioletTiger


I also think the entire discussion has made us less safe. We must be viewed more weakly in the world and if the day ever comes that we have somebody in custody who knows something that will mean many lives, what will he do then? He foolishly painted himself into a corner to appease and be popular.

After this, why would any other intelligenece agency trust us to keep a confidence, or work with us?

212 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:43:16am

re: #198 Ben Hur

My gut tells me he would blame our foreign policy.

Yeah, well, if you base it on the fact that he sat in Rev. Wright's pews then I would have to agree with you.

213 doppelganglander  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:43:26am

re: #205 alegrias

Who here has read Amity Shlaes' "The Forgotten Man" questioning the success of the "New Deal"? Ms. Shlaes wrote this before our current breakdown, and she used to write for the Wall Street Journal. Interesting parallels between then & now, retribution as a substitute for an absent recovery....

She used the same data as the Obama Administration's "great Depression" economist, Christina Roemer, but came up with different conclusions, not surprising.

PS, "The Forgotten Man" of the title? It's the tax payer.

Practically everyone, I think. If not, they should. Shlaes is spot on.

214 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:43:28am

re: #207 DaddyG

Olmec ya a nice cool drink.

I'd prefer a nice Moche Cappuccino, if you're making drinks.

215 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:43:32am

re: #181 Ben Hur

re: #195 tfc3rid

I don't know if Obama thinks 9/11 was our fault (from our foreign policy standpoint)

Of course he does. Thats what the entire World Apology Tour was about. Our "sins" over the past few decades that MADE others hate hate us!

216 looking closely  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:43:32am

re: #177 Zimriel

The CIA are not nice people. They ran a leak campaign against George W Bush which is partly how the Republican brand has got so tarnished.


According to Bush himself, he had great relations with the CIA.

Its probably fairer to say that a small number of CIA ran leaks.

And with respect, I don't think its appropriate to blame the CIA for "tarnishing" the Republican party. It did that all by itself.

217 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:43:57am

re: #212 tfc3rid

Yeah, well, if you base it on the fact that he sat in Rev. Wright's pews then I would have to agree with you.

Chickensssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!

218 VioletTiger  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:44:04am

re: #211 3 wood

After this, why would any other intelligenece agency trust us to keep a confidence, or work with us?

Good point.

219 Sean  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:44:30am

If they are prosecuted then there is a possibility that INTEL will be compromised.

There is also the possibility that he true value of the info will be known publicly.

This could backfire and show Bush's policies worked and saved lives and interdicted attacks in planning.

220 debutaunt  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:44:32am

re: #217 Ben Hur

Chickensssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssss!

Roosttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

221 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:44:55am

re: #203 razorbacker

I was under the impression that the actual agents that did the interrogations were not going to be prosecuted, but the the lawyers who had signed off on the methods of interrogation might be prosecuted.

That's my read, too, of the immediate threat from the Obama Administration. But if you're a CIA line officer, you can't exactly be feeling too secure that the O's got your back, either.

222 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:45:01am

re: #198 Ben Hur

My gut tells me he would blame our foreign policy.

Yeah, like "If we'd only thrown Israel overboard, bin Laden would have loved us". Something like that.

223 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:45:04am

re: #144 realwest

They will not investigate Pelosi or any other Democrat who approved the EIT. This is about blaming Bush and his aids. Period.

And no, Obama does not realize how this is going to harm America. But really, why the fuck should he care about that, anyway?

224 DaddyG  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:45:10am

re: #212 tfc3rid

Yeah, well, if you base it on the fact that he sat in Rev. Wright's pews then I would have to agree with you.

I suspected narcissism but who knew when the good Reverend Wright said God D--- America, Obama would take is as a personal call?

225 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:45:34am

re: #155 Zimriel

Thanks for posting on this, Charles. I expect that you'd been researching this for some time (due to its hyperventilation factor).

I've already posted on it but my feelings haven't changed:
(1) it amounts to ex-post-facto law, which is antiConstitutional and even worse than a Bill of Attainder. Hello? Julius Caesar, anyone?
(2) it is grossly irresponsible for a sitting President even to allow this banana-republic nonsense to propogate unchallenged.

* * * *
Seems many Americans want our country to be one of many Banana Republics, not ABOVE that low standard.

Many Americans shop at Banana Republic, or used to, for silly stuff, and perhaps think Banana REPUBLICs are better than Rethuglicans or the GOP.

226 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:45:51am

re: #213 doppelganglander

Practically everyone, I think. If not, they should. Shlaes is spot on.

Fine. Gosh... *writing to list*

227 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:45:54am

If he were real, what would Mitch Rapp do?

228 kansas  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:45:56am

I particularly like prosecuting lawyers for their written opinions. /

229 IslandLibertarian  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:46:18am

The whole Liberal-Left Wing movement is not about equality.
It's about PAYBACK.
And then DOMINATION.
"0" could be "Big Bro".

230 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:46:33am

re: #219 Sean

If they are prosecuted then there is a possibility that INTEL will be compromised.

There is also the possibility that he true value of the info will be known publicly.

This could backfire and show Bush's policies worked and saved lives and interdicted attacks in planning.

Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and curse the Marines; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use then as the backbone of a life trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

231 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:46:52am

PAY BACK TIME ,,,,
Lets make Lefty heads Explode

Announce RIGHT now that the 2012 Republican Presidential Ticket will be

Cheney // Palin
(or)
Cheney // Rove !

232 UFO TOFU  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:47:01am

re: #223 Kenneth

That sounds depressingly accurate.

233 kansas  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:47:38am

re: #227 tfc3rid

If he were real, what would Mitch Rapp do?

Have a cigarette and a vodka I think.

234 looking closely  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:48:00am

re: #203 razorbacker

I guess that I haven't been following this closely enough. I was under the impression that the actual agents that did the interrogations were not going to be prosecuted, but the the lawyers who had signed off on the methods of interrogation might be prosecuted.


My understanding as well.

Its ridiculous on its face. Bush administration gov't lawyers are going to be criminally prosecuted by the gov't for providing politically unpopular legal advice AFTER the FACT?

Huh? What's the "crime" here?

That doesn't even pass the laugh test; it would get laughed out of court.

Which makes you wonder the seriousness of it all.

Obama is playing some pretty petty crap here, and its going to backfire.

235 voirdire  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:48:22am

The O was a constitutional law professor during the campaign.

236 yesandno  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:48:37am

re: #193 realwest

Well it's been fun just reading the comments on this thread, but I have to leave now. If anyone has any idea of what the answer might be to my question in #144 I'd appreciate it if y'all would go ahead and post it. I'll be checking back in later.
Have a great day y'all and I hope to get the chance to see you all down the road!

Things that the Congress does or doesn't do are not prosecutable...if they are acting as representatives of the people and in their formal positions. So no, they won't go there.

But advisory members of the Executive have no such protections.

237 Rexatosis  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:49:02am

RE JMC #132

I, for one, do not believe POTUS Obama has ever had a "serious" thought. To have a "serious" thought one would have to think seriously about the consequences of one's actions, both in the long run and short run. There is absolutely nothing in POTUS Obama's past that suggests he has ever done anything serious. As a State Senator and later US Senator he could have been a stand in for Peter Sellers in "Being There." He has absolved himself of actually doing any legislating as President essentially abdicating his role as "Chief Legislator" to Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (which is very 19th century). The man is a diletante mouthing a bunch of waterdowned Marxist/Feminist/New Age/Psychobabble rhetoric he has picked up along the way.

238 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:49:13am

re: #230 Ben Hur

Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and curse the Marines; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use then as the backbone of a life trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Obama runs home..locks bathroom door, runs into shower fully clothed in presidential suit, turns on water, curls up in fetal position in corner and starts sucking thumb.

239 kansas  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:49:22am

re: #234 looking closely

He'll just move on to his next diversion. Hey! Look over there!

240 Lee Coller  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:49:44am

The end result of this could be that it becomes standard procedure for each exiting POTUS to provide blanket pardons for his entire administration (possibly including himself/herself). It could also end up that officials would demand preemptive pardons as a condition of taking a position.

This would result in the inability to prosecute someone should they actually do something egregious.

241 Kragar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:49:45am

re: #235 voirdire

The O was a constitutional law professor during the campaign.

And I was the Czarina of Tokyo!

242 Boxy_brown  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:49:51am

Getting whiplash... BBL.

243 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:49:51am

re: #239 kansas

He'll just move on to his next diversion. Hey! Look over there!

shiney things!

244 Danny  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:50:04am

No doubt about it: torture prosecutions will fly as soon as the sacrificial lambs are identified by Holder et al. and all political spin apparatus are in place.

245 Ojoe  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:50:12am

Since the Age of Aquarius is rapidly approaching with the aid of Lightworker Obama, we will not have to fear any attacks, and we can stop all the bad cop stuff.

/Mystic Crystal Revelations

246 Kragar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:50:40am

re: #243 sattv4u2

shiney things!

LOOK! A HUGE DISTRACTING THING!

/Tom Servo

247 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:50:46am

re: #235 voirdire

The O was a constitutional law professor during the campaign.

Yeah, a Con Law professor who thought the Constitution needed some tweaking...

248 nyc redneck  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:50:54am

re: #161 Kenneth

"JFK said America will pay any price to defend freedom. Obama wouldn't even speak up to defend it." - Fred Barnes

o is lost w/out his prompter. even if he wanted to, he couldn't even speak for 2 minutes just to address a few of the great aspects of american democracy.
o just sat there and nodded and listened to that tyrant ortega and then thanked him for not blaming him, because he was a baby. o is still a baby.
it is always abt. o.

249 looking closely  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:50:59am

re: #223 Kenneth

And no, Obama does not realize how this is going to harm America. But really, why the fuck should he care about that, anyway?


I assume that's a cynical dig.

Its because of the oath he took to defend and protect the USA.

If Obama doesn't protect the individuals charged with the responsbility to make hard choices on behalf of US security, he's worthless.

Nobody in a position of responsibility will be able to trust him to do so in the future either.

250 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:51:03am

re: #235 voirdire

The O was a constitutional law professor during the campaign.

It's a 'living / breathing' document donchaknow?
/

251 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:51:14am
252 razorbacker  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:51:27am

re: #228 kansas

I particularly like prosecuting lawyers for their written opinions. /

Have to, you know. Those oral opinions aren't worth the paper that they're...urm...wait a minute.

253 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:51:53am

re: #247 tfc3rid

Yeah, a Con Law professor who thought the Constitution needed some tweaking...

Just some minor adjustments... like, you know, "guaranteeing" "social justice", that sort of thing.

254 eddiebear  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:52:03am

re: #222 Ward Cleaver

Well, his people have been leaking those Jane Harmann phone calls, haven't they?

255 kansas  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:52:19am

re: #223 Kenneth

They will not investigate Pelosi or any other Democrat who approved the EIT. This is about blaming Bush and his aids. Period.

And no, Obama does not realize how this is going to harm America. But really, why the fuck should he care about that, anyway?

Like hell he does not realize this.

256 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:52:35am

re: #169 Dr. Shalit

alegrias -

And, as I recall he died of something that would have been treatable in the US in an Emergency Room. So much for "SICKO" - the Movie.

-S-

* * * *
Dr. Shalit, sorry you wasted good money on stupid Sicko!

What makes you think top communists don't get top European medical specialists flown in? I bet Castro's got the top EU docs on speed dial.

257 3 wood  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:53:05am

re: #193 realwest


I looked at you #144 and quite frankly I don't think Holder will give a flying jump how much Pelosi etc knew and when they knew it. This will be an effort to criminalize politically opposing him.

That's it.

258 eddiebear  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:53:31am

re: #256 alegrias

Yeah, in fact, wasn't it a Spanish doctor who worked on Castro to correct the botched surgery the Cubans did?

259 Fluffy Bunny  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:53:38am

My dad is a retired Federal agent...mom has been keeping a close eye on his blood pressure. I cannot repeat his very, colorful response to this developing situation. But, it begins something like this... " Are you f*cking, kidding me? This moronic, narcissistic asshole will not only jeopardize the safety of our country, he will also cripple all agencies dedicated to keeping us safe from harms way". ( I cleaned it up for public consumption!)

Oh, there is more...alot more!

260 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:53:47am

Bill Ayers is currently wetting himself with glee, "You have learned well young Jedi..."

*spit*

261 Stratergic Thinking  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:53:57am

re: #71 The Sanity Inspector

Every congressman who agitates for prosecuting the interrogators ought to have a Gitmo detainee turned loose in his district.

No, The detainee should be released in the congresscritter's house. That way only the idiot and the idiot's immediate family would be endangered. I'd give them about 6 seconds to live.

262 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:54:10am

re: #249 looking closely

I assume that's a cynical dig.

Its because of the oath he took to defend and protect the USA.

If Obama doesn't protect the individuals charged with the responsbility to make hard choices on behalf of US security, he's worthless.

Nobody in a position of responsibility will be able to trust him to do so in the future either.

You can assume all of my comments about Obama are heavily sarcastic. I am beyond appalled. Worst. President Ever.

263 doppelganglander  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:54:24am

re: #226 Oh no...Sand People!

Fine. Gosh... *writing to list*

It's really readable, trust me. It's primarily about people and events, not numbers.

264 looking closely  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:55:01am

re: #240 Lee Coller

The end result of this could be that it becomes standard procedure for each exiting POTUS to provide blanket pardons for his entire administration (possibly including himself/herself). It could also end up that officials would demand preemptive pardons as a condition of taking a position.

This would result in the inability to prosecute someone should they actually do something egregious.


Yup.

It could also (as likely if not more so) cause members of his administration not to want to do anything pro-active at all.

Why do anything of substance that a later administration (of either political direction) might subsequently AFTER THE FACT decide was wrong and decide to prosecute you for?

As policy, this is sheer idiocy.

But again, I don't think anything is really going to come of this. Its just temporary grandstanding to placate a few of the insane left (who really aren't going to get what they want anyway).

I predict the outcome will be that the AG says he's looked into it, and hasn't found grounds to bring criminal charges, and it ends there.

Instead of taking political responsibility, Obama passes the buck off to one of his subordinates for the lunatic left to blame, in this case Eric Holder.

265 3 wood  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:55:01am

re: #194 HelloDare

I'm sure a lot of Democrats are giving him heat on this. A lot of them are going to be "probed" by the defense attorneys.

Mark Levin was offering to represent anybody charged for free. He can't wait to depose Gibbs, Holder, Biden, Reid, Pelosi etc.

266 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:55:09am

re: #262 Kenneth

You can assume all of my comments about Obama are heavily sarcastic. I am beyond appalled. Worst. President Ever.


Silence Canadian!

267 opnion  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:55:10am

When it became clear to me that we were going to elect Obama, I was struck by the irony that the president of France will be more pro American than the U.S president.

268 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:55:35am

re: #263 doppelganglander

It's really readable, trust me. It's primarily about people and events, not numbers.

I trust you. :) Need something to read other than what I got at the moment anyway.

269 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:56:01am

re: #266 Ben Hur

Silence Canadian!

You have to admit, though, his written American is very proficient.

270 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:56:04am

More wasted money:
Exposé: Abbas’s Sons Earned Millions in U.S. Contracts

The United States awarded contracts worth more than two million dollars to sons and allies of PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, Reuters revealed on Wednesday. The American government, apparently embarrassed by the disclosure, withheld some details on the grounds of privacy and fears that would leave the people vulnerable to terrorists.

The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) said that family ties were not a factor in awarding the contracts, which included deals to repair roads and for mounting public relations campaigns to polish up America’s image. Other contracts were for advertising and promotions to help the Fatah party headed by Mahmoud Abbas, in the 2006 legislative election. Hamas surprised American experts and won a majority in the voting that the U.S. promoted as the introduction of democracy in the P.A.

271 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:56:40am
272 eddiebear  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:56:41am

re: #260 Oh no...Sand People!

And those of us who mentioned Ayers were deemed "racists" and "distractions" by The Deciders in the MSM.

273 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:57:09am

re: #260 Oh no...Sand People!

Bill Ayers is currently wetting himself with glee, "You have learned well young Jedi... Sith-to-be"

*spit*

FTFY

274 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:57:10am

re: #116 Kenneth

Stay away from a counterterrorism program that has become a career hazard.

Translation: Americans will die in a coming terrorist attack.

Exactly.

275 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:57:18am

Okay, here's where I'm at. For the sake of my son I really REALLY want Obama to do well. But if he were a LIZARD, for every upding I can give him so far I see at least 20 downdings.

OBAMAKARMA ,,,, -120

276 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:57:27am

re: #255 kansas

Obama's actions & statements are intended to aggrandize himself and deflect all blame. Anything and everything is acceptable to that cause. I've seen no evidence he cares for anything else.

277 zombie  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:57:35am
WASHINGTON, April 22 (Reuters) - Attorney General Eric Holder on Wednesday said the Justice Department will follow the law wherever it leads in probing U.S. officials behind CIA interrogation policies.

His comments came a day after President Barack Obama opened the door to possible prosecutions of U.S. officials from the previous administration of George W. Bush who prepared the legal groundwork for the use of harsh interrogation methods on terrorism suspects, including waterboarding.

“We’re going to follow the evidence wherever it takes us, follow the law wherever that takes us,” Holder said to reporters at an Earth Day event. “No one is above the law,” he said, reiterating that the department had no intention to prosecute CIA interrogators who acted “in good faith” to follow official legal guidance.

This is completely insane.

The whole point is that the lawyers and advisors "prepared the legal groundwork" for harsh interrogation, meaning that they found strong legal footing for it. In other words, they were not breaking the law -- or at least had well-reasoned legal opinion that someone who conducted a harsh interrogation wasn't breaking the law.

If someone intentionally violated a clearly stated law, prosecute them.

But if someone writes a memo postulating that harsh interrogation does not count as torture and thus does not rise to the level of being illegal, on what basis could they possibly be prosecuted? That's like arresting a Supreme Court judge for rendering an opinion you don't agree with.

I think the Obama administration is about to bite off more than it can chew. It's not like they'll be hounding some ignorant yahoos who don't know how to defend themselves. They'll be charging some of the best legal specialists in the country, most of whom could run circles around a buffoon like Eric Holder.

If I was any of these charged lawyers, I'd say, "Bring it on, fools."

Everyone knows that this case is pure political revenge, plain and simple. Obama's hollow claims of "moving past partisanship" and "bringing people together" are ringing hollower every second.

278 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:57:39am

re: #267 opnion

When it became clear to me that we were going to elect Obama, I was struck by the irony that the president of France will be more pro American than the U.S president.

And Germany, and Canada, and France,.....You know, all the peeps he is apologizing to as if The One's America hating leftist allies in Europe WEREN'T ALL VOTED OUT OF OFFICE!

279 looking closely  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:57:44am

re: #267 opnion

When it became clear to me that we were going to elect Obama, I was struck by the irony that the president of France will be more pro American than the U.S president.


He's clearly more centrist than Obama.

Actually, as observed, this is the first time in most American's lifetimes that the President of the USA stands to the political left of the leaders of France, Germany, and Italy.

280 captdiggs  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:58:01am

This is leading to the criminal prosecution of a former president. That is Holder's implied threat.
Such a fiasco will tear this nation apart and bring joy to every enemy of America.

281 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:58:21am

re: #277 zombie
please see my #79

282 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:58:24am

re: #259 Fluffy Bunny

Please quote him in entirety. We need it.

283 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:58:27am

re: #269 Occasional Reader

You have to admit, though, his written American is very proficient.

Yes, but his accent drives me nuts.

284 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:58:52am

re: #277 zombie

That's like arresting a Supreme Court judge for rendering an opinion you don't agree with.

Don't give them any ideas.

285 zombie  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:59:33am

re: #281 sattv4u2

please see my #79

I updinged you.

286 kansas  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:59:37am

Wednesday, April 22, 2009
Will Obama Prosecute CIA Officials or Won't He?

Obama: "Present." Well, kind of.

287 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:59:39am

re: #256 alegrias

* * * *
Dr. Shalit, sorry you wasted good money on stupid Sicko!

What makes you think top communists don't get top European medical specialists flown in? I bet Castro's got the top EU docs on speed dial.

alegrias -

Didn't waste my money on the theatre release. There was plenty enough on TV and YouTube. Agee died in Havana after surgery for perforated ulcers, from everything I was able to gather, no Non-Cuban Medical Personnel were involved.

-S-

288 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:59:50am

re: #280 captdiggs

This is leading to the criminal prosecution of a former president. That is Holder's implied threat.
Such a fiasco will tear this nation apart and bring joy to every enemy of America.

Are they stupid enough to try to take it that far? Really? I know the far left wants it, but they would be insane to go there. The country would not stand for it.

289 HelloDare  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:59:55am

re: #265 3 wood

Mark Levin was offering to represent anybody charged for free. He can't wait to depose Gibbs, Holder, Biden, Reid, Pelosi etc.

They're sitting pretty compared to Rockefeller and Feinstein. All I can say is that Obama must know what he's doing since he is a constitutional lawyer from Harvard and has the country's best interest in mind. /

290 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:00:10pm

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

Is CNSNEWS repudibidibidibidibidle?

291 calcajun  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:00:17pm

And people wonder why ammo sales are through the roof? It is this sort of vacillation by the administration which makes people scared.

As for prosecution, what is the law? Is it Federal law or the UCMJ?

292 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:00:37pm

My apologies insofar as I implied that the whole of the CIA were partisan careerists who would betray their own oaths out of petty spite.

I am not apologising to those "Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity" and their treacherous moles still within the agency. The CIA under Tenet had deep, DEEP problems.

293 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:00:38pm

Marcus Aurelius: "There was once a dream that was Rome America. You could only whisper it. Anything more than a whisper and it would vanish... it was so fragile. And I fear that it will not survive the winter."

294 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:00:44pm

re: #284 Occasional Reader

Don't give them any ideas.


That would be too much Lincoln for Lincoln 2.0.

295 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:01:00pm
296 der_ich  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:01:28pm

No one is above the law. This should indeed be the case I find it repulsive that so many here argue against this basic principle of a
- well - a state with the rule of law.

Also the argument that I saw made here, that the Clinton administration saw itself above the law and acted accordingly just does not stick. So the misbehaviour of one government sanctifies any wrongdoings in the future? You that you despise Clinton want to be like him?

I think it is a lame excuse of those professionals to say that they just followed orders. If that is really all they can do and don't have their own moral compass and the ability to think and judge for themselves, then they should be fired as fast as possible anyway. A secret service has no use for such kind of people. BTW: The last time I heard this argument was by the soldiers at the Berlin wall, who killed the poor bastards who tried to flee from communist Eastern Germany. Those low levels of morality should not be something we decent to.

There is no reason to be afraid of the law. US judges and juries will be able to judge whether and in which cases certain acts were unlawful and they will also be able to take into account the intentions behind such acts and the pressure of "ticking bombs" the CIA officers were exposed to.

297 looking closely  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:01:31pm

re: #280 captdiggs

This is leading to the criminal prosecution of a former president. That is Holder's implied threat.
Such a fiasco will tear this nation apart and bring joy to every enemy of America.

Not going to happen.

This would create so much blowback, it would cripple the administration. In fact, that kind of thing potentially could cause bullets to start flying.

Again, after Obama passed him this sack of rotten potatoes, I predict Holder will drop it. Its just not a winnable case, and he knows it. So some time will pass, and the AG office will either announce that there is no evidence to charge anyone, or possibly (and just as likely) we'll not hear about this again (until politically convenient).

298 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:01:53pm

re: #285 zombie

I updinged you.

Thats not why I pointed it out ,,, but thank you

299 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:01:54pm

re: #272 eddiebear

And those of us who mentioned Ayers were as we speak deemed "racists" and "distractions" by The Deciders in the MSM.

FTFY

300 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:02:17pm

re: #257 3 wood

I looked at you #144 and quite frankly I don't think Holder will give a flying jump how much Pelosi etc knew and when they knew it. This will be an effort to criminalize politically opposing him.

That's it.

Isn't criminalizing your politcal opponents what occurred in the Soviet Union?

Just sayin'.

301 captdiggs  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:02:41pm

re: #288 capitalist piglet

Are they stupid enough to try to take it that far? Really? I know the far left wants it, but they would be insane to go there. The country would not stand for it.

Press secretary Gibbs said yesterday when specifically asked about this ( would Bush be a target) that "no one was above the law".
Again, this is an implicit threat of the criminal prosecution of Bush and/or other senior Bush administration officials.

302 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:02:55pm

re: #258 eddiebear

Yeah, in fact, wasn't it a Spanish doctor who worked on Castro to correct the botched surgery the Cubans did?

* * * *
Posiblemente and probablemente.

Spain's Zapatero offered to make nice between Cuba and Obama.

303 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:03:24pm

re: #266 Ben Hur

Tell it to the Mounties!

304 razorbacker  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:03:35pm

re: #296 der_ich

There is no reason to be afraid of the law. US judges and juries will be able to judge whether and in which cases certain acts were unlawful and they will also be able to take into account the intentions behind such acts and the pressure of "ticking bombs" the CIA officers were exposed to.

Lawsuits are expensive. Where would those charged go to get back their reputations, their savings, and their lost time?

305 eddiebear  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:03:47pm

re: #299 Oh no...Sand People!

Bingo.

306 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:03:56pm

re: #301 captdiggs

Press secretary Gibbs said yesterday when specifically asked about this ( would Bush be a target) that "no one was above the law".
Again, this is an implicit threat of the criminal prosecution of Bush and/or other senior Bush administration officials.

I know what they're saying...I just hope they're not stupid enough to try to set it in actual motion, you know?

307 Buck  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:03:59pm

re: #270 Kosh's Shadow

More wasted money:
Exposé: Abbas’s Sons Earned Millions in U.S. Contracts

If you can't beat 'em, Hire 'em!

308 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:04:07pm

re: #283 Ben Hur

Yes, but his accent drives me nuts.

Soooo what is it abooot my accent that bugs yoooo, eh?

309 HelloDare  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:04:07pm

Obama sounds like a despot instituting a purge. He will graciously let the guilty keep their heads.

310 dry_heavz_4_alla  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:04:23pm

While we're fretting over waterboarding, the Taliban has just seized the Buner district next to Islamabad, taking over govt and NGO offices, setting up checkpoints, declaring Sharia, offering bin Laden sanctuary ... and all just 70 miles from the capital ... oh, and just down the road from Pakistan's largest nuke facility.
[Link: www.atomicarchive.com...]

WSJ link in the links section.
[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Not sure why this isn't breaking news on all networks yet !

311 captdiggs  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:04:23pm

re: #297 looking closely

I agree it is unlikely to happen.
Obama opened a real can of worms though. As if the US and the world does not have enough on its plate.

312 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:04:26pm

re: #300 tfc3rid

Isn't criminalizing your politcal opponents what occurred in the Soviet Union?

Just sayin'.

It's happening now in Venezuela

[Link: www.google.com...]

Maybe Chavez gave Obama a book of ADVICE!

313 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:04:28pm
314 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:04:32pm

FBI, cops won't comment on King's Muslim assertions

The FBI and Nassau police Monday declined to comment directly about Rep. Peter King's assertion that U.S. Muslims are uncooperative with police, but stressed that they do not focus investigations on particular religious denominations.

However, a spokeswoman for the federal Department of Homeland Security, Amy Kudwa, rejected King's assertion, saying it "would be unfair and inaccurate to characterize each Muslim community in the United States in a single statement."

Strange headline.

Sounds like they're commenting to me.

Read it all. You'll be happy to find out that Mosques are off limits.

315 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:05:08pm

re: #313 buzzsawmonkey

Robespierre wants to get on
He gets rid of Danton
That was Spring--come July
And old Robespierre has to die

--Marat/Sade

there once was a girl in nantucket
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

316 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:05:34pm
317 Stratergic Thinking  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:05:37pm

re: #227 tfc3rid

If he were real, what would Mitch Rapp do?

simple really,

there would be an astounding number of unexplained "deaths".

Suicide clubs would be all the rage in DC. we'd have that whole nest of idiots cleaned out in about a month.

Mitch Rapp for Sec of State :)

318 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:05:46pm

re: #303 Kenneth

Tell it to the Mounties!

Why is that Mountie staring at the Presidential Package?!?

319 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:06:02pm

re: #261 Stratergic Thinking

No, The detainee should be released in the congresscritter's house. That way only the idiot and the idiot's immediate family would be endangered. I'd give them about 6 seconds to live.

* * * * *
I can see the GITMO detainees future home, from my house.

(paraphrasing what Gov. Sarah Palin did NOT say)

Alexandria, VA, George Washington's town north of Mt. Vernon, and Eric Holder's destination for GITMO boyz.

320 DaddyG  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:06:02pm

re: #310 dry_heavz_4_alla Oh boy.

321 eddiebear  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:06:22pm

re: #311 captdiggs

Don't worry. The MSM will spike any footage that makes Dems look bad.

Also, can we start calling "distraction" if this takes place?

322 Russkilitlover  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:07:21pm

re: #147 buzzsawmonkey

How on earth has that ride survived the PC Police?

It's a world of laughter
A world of tears.
It's a world of hope
And a world of fears.
There's so much that we share
That it's time we're aware
It's a small world afterall.....

Haven't been on that particular ride in over 15 years and STILL the tune haunts me.

323 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:07:21pm

re: #318 Ben Hur

Why is that Mountie staring at the Presidential Package?!?

Because it is lacking something?
/

324 HelloDare  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:07:31pm

re: #318 Ben Hur

Why is that Mountie staring at the Presidential Package?!?

If they looked into his eyes, they'd turn to stone.

325 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:07:35pm

Iran wants 'constructive' nuclear talks
As in "constructing a nuclear bomb" talks?

The US and the five other countries are discussing possible new strategies for dealing with Iran that reportedly involves allowing Iran to continue enriching uranium at its current level for an as-yet undetermined length of time.


Why do I think that time is whatever Iran thinks it needs to enrich enough uranium for some bombs?

326 looking closely  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:08:44pm

re: #296 der_ich

No one is above the law. This should indeed be the case I find it repulsive that so many here argue against this basic principle of a - well - a state with the rule of law.
.

You miss the point.

The CIA officers were acting under legal counsel.

They didn't just "follow orders" regardless of legality; they were instructed by counsel that what they were doing was legally correct.

As such, the Obama administration has already said it wasn't going to press charges against them. Instead, now its saying that the LAWYERS who gave them said counsel could be prosecuted for it!

Its ridiculous. These are professionals who did their legal homework and gave legal advice. Even if said counsel was wrong (and it almost certainly was NOT), since when is giving incorrect legal advice a prosecutable crime?

If there is any evidence of legal malfeasance on their part, then maybe it might be appropriate to have these lawyers sanctioned or disbarred, for it. Is there? Even one shred?

First let the Obama administration define the law here (or try, and we're talking judicial review). THEN, *MAYBE* if there is a discrepancy AND reason to think legal malfeasance was committed then go after the lawyers.

327 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:09:26pm

re: #325 Kosh's Shadow

Iran wants 'constructive' nuclear talks
As in "constructing a nuclear bomb" talks?


Why do I think that time is whatever Iran thinks it needs to enrich enough uranium for some bombs?

Talk, talk, talk, while the centrifuges spin, spin, spin.

328 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:09:27pm

Israel to Wean Itself Off of U.S. Munitions

An Obama administration decision to delay weapons shipments to Israel is fueling concerns that the U.S. is leveraging armaments to force the establishment of a Palestinian Authority state, according to The Bulletin. It is believed that this may have had a role in the Israeli Defense Ministry's decision to resume developing and producing indigenous munitions in an effort to end its dependence on U.S. weapons.

Beware of Postmodernists using the words "Will never comprimise Israel's security....."

Because to the postmodernist, "security" in this instance means, "1948 borders"

329 razorbacker  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:09:53pm

I am reminded of a no-doubt apocryphal story about LBJ, who supposedly wanted to spread a rumor that one of his opponents enjoyed sexual relations with barnyard animals.

No one will believe that, he was told.

I know, I just want to make the s.o.b. deny it.

330 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:10:13pm
331 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:10:15pm

re: #328 Ben Hur

Israel to Wean Itself Off of U.S. Munitions


Beware of Postmodernists using the words "Will never comprimise Israel's security....."

Because to the postmodernist, "security" in this instance means, "1948 borders"

With friends like US. who needs enemies?

332 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:10:44pm

re: #328 Ben Hur

Israel to Wean Itself Off of U.S. Munitions

Beware of Postmodernists using the words "Will never comprimise Israel's security....."

Because to the postmodernist, "security" in this instance means, "1948 borders"

'47 I think........

333 IslandLibertarian  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:10:48pm

re: #296 der_ich

Yes comrade, let the show trials begin.

/

334 Russkilitlover  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:11:34pm

re: #290 Ben Hur

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

Is CNSNEWS repudibidibidibidibidle?

An another attack on America and on LA in particular was prevented and for that, I'm grateful.

I would, however, love to know if the terrorists planned to take out the Shrine Auditorium as their designated target. Celebrity heads would spin off their necks trying to get their minds around that ;}

335 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:11:44pm
336 looking closely  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:11:47pm

re: #316 Iron Fist

That is for Obama's second term, if Thomas, Scalia, Roberts, and Alito don't read the writing on the wall and resign.

(I'd like to believe that this is sarc, but I'm not sure that it is. If they indict (but don't impeach) a Supreme Court justice, what happens? I'll admit that I don't have a clue. You've entered the Land of Undefined Behavior, as one of my CS teachers used to say. Anything can happen)

I don't see it.
Obama is ultimately craven. His first instincts are probably always wrong, but ultimately he still has to bow to political pressure.
I don't see him picking that fight, and if he tried it, I certainly wouln't see him winning it.

337 El Supremo  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:11:53pm

re: #261 Stratergic Thinking

No, The detainee should be released in the congresscritter's house. That way only the idiot and the idiot's immediate family would be endangered. I'd give them about 6 seconds to live.

Dear Concerned Citizen:

Thank you for your recent letter criticizing our treatment of the
Taliban and Al Qaeda detainees currently held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
The administration takes these matters seriously. Your opinion was
heard loud and clear here in Washington .You will be pleased to learn that, thanks
to the concerns of citizens like you, we are creating the
Terrorist Retraining Program, to be called the "Liberals Accept
Responsibility for Killers" program, or LARK for short. In accordance
with the guidelines of this new program, we have decided to place one
terrorist under your personal care.

Your detainee has been selected and scheduled for transportation to
your residence as soon as possible. Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud is to be
cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded in your
letter of admonishment. We will be conducting weekly inspections to ensure
that your standards of care for Ahmed are commensurate with those you
so strongly recommended in your letter.

Although Ahmed is sociopath and extremely violent, we hope that your
sensitivity to what you described, as his "attitudinal problem" will
help him overcome this character flaw. Perhaps you are correct in
describing these problems as merely “cultural differences.”

I should warn you that your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand combat and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a pencil or
nail clippers. He is also expert at making a wide variety of explosive
devices from common household products, so you may wish to keep those
items locked up, unless you feel that this might offend him.

Ahmed will not wish to interact with your wife, daughters, or any other females who might visit or live at your residence. He views females as a subhuman form of property. This is a particularly sensitive subject for him. He has shown violent
tendencies around women who fail to comply with the dress code that he considers appropriate and mandatory. I am sure that over time, your wife and daughters will come to enjoy the anonymity offered by the bhurka. Just remind them that it is
all part of respecting his culture and religious beliefs, as I am sure he will afford you the same courtesy.


Thanks again for your letter. We truly appreciate it when folks like
you inform us of the proper way to do our job. Take good care of Ahmed
and good luck!

338 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:12:06pm

This from the Israel is a Racist Apartheid State File:

Palestinian land dealer to be tried for treason

Hebron resident brought before special Palestinian tribunal discussing sale of lands to Israel. If convicted, he is expected to get death penalty

339 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:12:44pm

re: #332 jcm

Because to the postmodernist, "security" in this instance means, "1948 borders"

'47 I think........

More like the '41 border. In Poland.

340 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:13:06pm

re: #310 dry_heavz_4_alla

While we're fretting over waterboarding, the Taliban has just seized the Buner district next to Islamabad, taking over govt and NGO offices, setting up checkpoints, declaring Sharia, offering bin Laden sanctuary ... and all just 70 miles from the capital ... oh, and just down the road from Pakistan's largest nuke facility.
[Link: www.atomicarchive.com...]

WSJ link in the links section.
[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Not sure why this isn't breaking news on all networks yet !

* * * *
It's cool. Obama's been to Pakistan and has told them what's what. Relax.///We have nothing to fear from jihadists.

341 Land Shark  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:13:08pm

re: #297 looking closely

I hope you're right. But given the way the Obama regime has operated so far I wouldn't rule it out completely. Obama is very good already at letting underlings and the Congress do his dirty work while he and the Teleprompter bask in the adoring glow of his followers and media. He's already passed the buck to Holder, and from what I know about him I think there's a real possibility he'll go ahead with it. Like I said, I hope you're right.

It seems every week Obama crosses yet another line, pushing me further and further away from the Moderate Center. I don't like it at all.

342 Ojoe  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:13:53pm

re: #334 Russkilitlover

L.A. skyscrapers. Plenty of choice.

343 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:13:57pm

President Bush has issued a response...

344 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:14:18pm

re: #343 Kenneth

President Bush has issued a response...

Oh...if only.

345 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:14:19pm
346 Buck  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:14:19pm

re: #328 Ben Hur

Israel to Wean Itself Off of U.S. Munitions

Beware of Postmodernists using the words "Will never comprimise Israel's security....."

Because to the postmodernist, "security" in this instance means, "1948 borders"

1987 - Israelis Decide Not to Construct Lavi Jet Fighter.

My cousin was an engineer on the Lavi Project, and says it would still be the most advanced fighter jet in the world.

347 razorbacker  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:14:32pm

I suspect that Israel is not the only nation that is re-evaluating their reliance on American military support.

348 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:14:36pm

re: #341 Land Shark

I hope you're right. But given the way the Obama regime has operated so far I wouldn't rule it out completely. Obama is very good already at letting underlings and the Congress do his dirty work while he and the Teleprompter bask in the adoring glow of his followers and media. He's already passed the buck to Holder, and from what I know about him I think there's a real possibility he'll go ahead with it. Like I said, I hope you're right.

It seems every week Obama crosses yet another line, pushing me further and further away from the Moderate Center. I don't like it at all.

Well, we ARE still a racist country, so... We have to stop persecuting those who we see as terrorists...

349 looking closely  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:14:39pm

re: #335 buzzsawmonkey

According to Iron Fist and others, munitions are flying off the shelves. It's no wonder Israel's having trouble with deliveries.


Lots of the Winchester/Olin ammo is subcontracted to and made in Israel, actually.

Ammunition isn't flying off the shelves. . .the shelves are empty.

Demand for ammo, has FAR outstripped supply, and most common calibers are unavailable in most outlets (or unbelievably expensive).

But if its any "consolation" LOTS of Americans of good moral character now own weapons and stores of ammo.

350 Fluffy Bunny  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:14:41pm

re: #282 Kenneth

He and mom, also retired law enforcement, have been reading LGF. I keep hoping they will catch an open registration and join. We have had many interesting LGF conversations, and dad is a hoot!

The thought of anyone be prosecuted makes my blood boil, I know firsthand how dedicated these agents are and the sacrifices they make for their country. My heart breaks for all agencies involved and I pray we, as a country, can survive this administration.

351 Ariel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:14:43pm

How about indicting Jamie Gorelick for creating the "wall" that arguably had a role in allowing 9/11 to happen?

352 kansas  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:14:52pm

re: #159 Zimriel

Also, my initial thought was that O was letting his opponents work themselves up in a lather again. Looks like if he was hoping Charles would have his back on this one, he's going to be disappointed! :^)

How many of these head fakes a week are we gonna get? I always fall for them.

353 3 wood  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:14:52pm

re: #300 tfc3rid

Isn't criminalizing your politcal opponents what occurred in the Soviet Union?

Just sayin'.

Yes.


Obama is sending a loud a clear message to government employees, disagree with me and you may get prosecuted.

354 harrylook  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:14:56pm

I'm a gov't lawyer. The idea I could be prosecuted for advising my clients one way or the other is pretty frightening.

355 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:15:11pm

re: #328 Ben Hur

Israel to Wean Itself Off of U.S. Munitions

Beware of Postmodernists using the words "Will never comprimise Israel's security....."

Because to the postmodernist, "security" in this instance means, "1948 borders"

Add to the way Britain is also considering banning weapons sales to Israel, and many US weapons involve systems from British companies.

356 Russkilitlover  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:16:03pm

re: #310 dry_heavz_4_alla

WSJ link in the links section.
[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Wow. Hillary seem a bit concerned but all she can muster for now is for Pakistanis to "speak out." Yeah. Good plan.

Pakistanis "need to speak out forcefully against a policy that is ceding more and more territory to the insurgents," Mrs. Clinton said in testimony before a House committee. She pointed to "the seriousness of the existential threat posed to the state of Pakistan by the continuing [Taliban] advances, now within hours of Islamabad."

357 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:16:06pm

re: #346 Buck

1987 - Israelis Decide Not to Construct Lavi Jet Fighter.

My cousin was an engineer on the Lavi Project, and says it would still be the most advanced fighter jet in the world.

I was told that it was cancelled under American pressure - like other Israeli developed hardware that starts to compete with Amerikaka.

358 KenJen  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:16:13pm

re: #316 Iron Fist

That is for Obama's second term, if Thomas, Scalia, Roberts, and Alito don't read the writing on the wall and resign.

(I'd like to believe that this is sarc, but I'm not sure that it is. If they indict (but don't impeach) a Supreme Court justice, what happens? I'll admit that I don't have a clue. You've entered the Land of Undefined Behavior, as one of my CS teachers used to say. Anything can happen)


I saw Roberts speak at a lecture this weekend. It was sponsored by the McConnell Center at U of L. The Chief Justice, Senator McConnell, and Univ. Pres James Ramsey were all on stage together. There was almost zero security. No metal detectors. One guard for a crowd of 800 people. Anyone could have walked in off the street with a gun. I thought it was very strange.

359 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:16:14pm

I am working on a lesson on Ronald Reagan for the boys' club for our homeschool group. It will not surprise anyone that I was not exposed to Reagan's speech "A Time for Choosing" at any point during my education. I have read it now, and thought that just in case anyone else hadn't seen it, I would post a link.

So much in it is still so timely.

[Link: www.americanrhetoric.com...]

360 kansas  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:17:14pm

re: #354 harrylook

I'm a gov't lawyer. The idea I could be prosecuted for advising my clients one way or the other is pretty frightening.

You have the right to.....................oh wait.

361 der_ich  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:18:25pm

re: #304 razorbacker

re: #304 razorbacker

Lawsuits are expensive. Where would those charged go to get back their reputations, their savings, and their lost time?

Excuse me to be blunt but this is a ridiculous argument. You basically argue against ANY process against anyone. If we assume innocent until proven guilty every suspect is potentially harmed to have their reputations illegitimately destroyed, hence there should not be a process against anyone.

362 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:18:30pm

re: #357 Ben Hur

Like the Canadian Avro Arrow.

363 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:19:26pm

re: #347 razorbacker

I suspect that Israel is not the only nation that is re-evaluating their reliance on American military support.

* * * *
Realpolitik must be shocking them. I welcome some of these countries' having to dig in their own pockets for their own defense.

364 alexknyc  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:19:40pm

re: #68 NJDhockeyfan

To Obama people like Chavez & Daniel Ortega can be allies & friends but the CIA, who is trying to protect us, is the enemy. I feel like I live in Bizarro World.

We're living in Bizarro America.

365 looking closely  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:20:08pm

re: #341 Land Shark

He's already passed the buck to Holder, and from what I know about him I think there's a real possibility he'll go ahead with it. Like I said, I hope you're right.


From what I know of him, he won't.

He's a political player. He's not going to want to push a case he can't win, and he knows that not only can he not win this one, but pushing it will hurt Pelosi and all the other Democrats who stood by and approved the very same techniques they now decry.

He'll fold.

Don't forget, that if he pushes the prosecution of former administration legal-advisors, then he's creating a precedent that will put his OWN neck on the line for the next administration.

This is a can of worms Obama better think long and hard before opening.

366 alexknyc  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:20:15pm

re: #103 jwb7605

I demand a repeal of the single upding rule.

Get ACORN on it!

367 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:20:15pm

re: #356 Russkilitlover

Wow. Hillary seem a bit concerned but all she can muster for now is for Pakistanis to "speak out." Yeah. Good plan.


re: #347 razorbacker

I suspect that Israel is not the only nation that is re-evaluating their reliance on American military support.

Even before this, Japan and South Korea have been working on their own fighter aircraft. They're more likely now to keep those projects going instead of buying ours.

368 Van Helsing  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:20:58pm

If you give up strength, you will never have peace.

369 jvic  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:20:59pm

Several people have noted that this emboldens our enemies.

Suppose Obama goes ahead with the trials and then there's another attack, bigger than 9/11.

I'm not sure we'd survive as a democracy. I am sure that the consequences for Obama would dwarf whatever happened to the Bushies.

Doesn't Obama realize that? This question carries me to (what I hope is) the boundary of kook territory...

370 thebigolddog  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:21:01pm
Will Obama Prosecute CIA Officials or Won't He?

Either way, the damage is done. It's 9/10 again.

371 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:21:21pm

re: #351 Ariel

How about indicting Jamie Gorelick for creating the "wall" that arguably had a role in allowing 9/11 to happen?

* * * *
and for whatever Ms. Gorelick did at Fannie Mae, enriching herself obscenely while planting the seeds for our mortgage securitizing/commoditizing meltdown.

372 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:21:31pm

re: #365 looking closely

From what I know of him, he won't.

He's a political player. He's not going to want to push a case he can't win, and he knows that not only can he not win this one, but pushing it will hurt Pelosi and all the other Democrats who stood by and approved the very same techniques they now decry.

He'll fold.

Don't forget, that if he pushes the prosecution of former administration legal-advisors, then he's creating a precedent that will put his OWN neck on the line for the next administration.

This is a can of worms Obama better think long and hard before opening.

Unless he got advice from Hugo to help his plans to be president for life.
/partially

373 OldLineTexan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:21:52pm

re: #351 Ariel

How about indicting Jamie Gorelick for creating the "wall" that arguably had a role in allowing 9/11 to happen?

If "indict" means "continually employing the same worthless hack over and over", then YES.

374 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:22:17pm

re: #362 Kenneth

Like the Canadian Avro Arrow.

Canada?

375 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:22:42pm

re: #374 Ben Hur

Yes, that Canada.

376 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:23:04pm

re: #359 EmmmieG

I am working on a lesson on Ronald Reagan for the boys' club for our homeschool group. It will not surprise anyone that I was not exposed to Reagan's speech "A Time for Choosing" at any point during my education. I have read it now, and thought that just in case anyone else hadn't seen it, I would post a link.

So much in it is still so timely.

[Link: www.americanrhetoric.com...]

Commencement Address at Eureka College
June 7, 1957
Ronald Reagan

There was a temptation of course to beg your favor by citing the mistakes of my generation, dwelling on the awful site of the world and suggesting that you would bring order out of chaos and set things right. I'm not that pessimistic, however, and would be less than honest and sincere if I chose such a course.

[snip]

Looming large in your inheritance is this country, this land America, placed as it is between two great oceans. Those who discovered and pioneered it had to have rare qualities of courage and imagination nor did these qualities stop there. Even the modern-day immigrants have been possessed of courage beyond that of their neighbors. The courage to tear up centuries-old roots and leave their homelands, to come to this land where even the language was strange. Such courage is part of our inheritance, all of us spring from these special people and these qualities have contributed to the make-up of the American personality.
377 razorbacker  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:23:09pm

re: #361 der_ich

re: #304 razorbacker

Excuse me to be blunt but this is a ridiculous argument. You basically argue against ANY process against anyone. If we assume innocent until proven guilty every suspect is potentially harmed to have their reputations illegitimately destroyed, hence there should not be a process against anyone.

You ignore the perils of lawfare at your own risk.

378 dry_heavz_4_alla  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:23:14pm

re: #310 dry_heavz_4_alla

While we're fretting over waterboarding, the Taliban has just seized the Buner district next to Islamabad, taking over govt and NGO offices, setting up checkpoints, declaring Sharia, offering bin Laden sanctuary ... and all just 70 miles from the capital ... oh, and just down the road from Pakistan's largest nuke facility.
[Link: www.atomicarchive.com...]

WSJ link in the links section.
[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Not sure why this isn't breaking news on all networks yet !

Update --- this also means they also now have access to the Tarbela Reservoir ... Islamabad's water and electricity supply, and water source for 50% of Pakistan's agricultural land.

379 OldLineTexan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:23:18pm

re: #362 Kenneth

Like the Canadian Avro Arrow.

The US blocked the Avro Arrow?

Not the way it went according to my knowledge.

380 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:23:28pm

re: #375 Kenneth

Yes, that Canada.

Fighter Jets?

381 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:23:44pm

re: #375 Kenneth

Yes, that Canada.

Crime what happened to the Arrow.

382 That's Mr. President to you  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:23:45pm

You know everyone - all of this talk about who might get prosecuted for interrogation practices in the last 8 years is all a distraction.

OK - I admit that Rahm and I thought up the distraction a few weeks ago. We figured that releasing the memos would be a great thing to do after my going to different parts of the world to receive adoration from dictators and allies that won't fight in Afghanistan.

We figured "Hey - let's spend that week in April kicking the Bush Administration around." Then we get this strange situation where I have the Kos Kiddies screaming for war crimes trials while many Americans are learning that making KSM think he was drowning actually might have saved a few thousand in L.A.

So forget that distraction, OK?

Let's move on to a new one - The Strategic Pork Initiative.

We are going to place a shield of pork over the entire US economy protecting it from any threat. Threats like out of control job creation and greedy consumption of goods and services. Look for new announcements in the coming days about how bad bankers are and how we need to "end greed as we know it." Till then, keep watching the news for stories about pageant queens that hate queens and Earth day celebrations.

just avoid the whole "what is torture" thing, OK?

383 looking closely  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:24:16pm

re: #361 der_ich

re: #304 razorbacker

Excuse me to be blunt but this is a ridiculous argument. You basically argue against ANY process against anyone. If we assume innocent until proven guilty every suspect is potentially harmed to have their reputations illegitimately destroyed, hence there should not be a process against anyone.


This is why there is (and should be) prosecutorial discretion.

You're not supposed to push any case against anyone unless you have good reason to believe they're guilty, and some evidence to make your case.

Outlandish politically motivated cases like this one should be non-starters. If Holder had any integrity (and we know he doesn't from his disgraceful conduct in the Rich case), he'd come out shortly with a statement saying there is no role for gov't action here, and/or that his office isn't interested in pursuing this.

384 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:24:16pm

re: #374 Ben Hur

Canada?

Yes, Canada. Of course, that plane didn't take off, eh.

But Bombadier is a big aircraft manufacturer now; they own DeHaviland and Lear Jet, as well as making regional jets (CRJ - nnn line)

385 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:24:32pm

Does anyone here read Doonesbury? I haven't in years, but I'm curious about how Obama is portrayed in it. I don't mean what Tradeau thinks of him (I'm sure he's constantly on his knees, waiting for Obama to show up at his place), but rather if he uses a symbol to represent him like he did for other presidents. I don't want to read through a bunch of crappy comic strips to find out.

386 Desert Dog  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:24:34pm

re: #371 alegrias

* * * *
and for whatever Ms. Gorelick did at Fannie Mae, enriching herself obscenely while planting the seeds for our mortgage securitizing/commoditizing meltdown.

And, what about Rahm's $320,000 from Freddie Mac for 14 "grueling" months of hard work. Nice work if you can get it. I would run a company into an ice berg for half that.

387 OldLineTexan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:25:09pm

re: #361 der_ich

re: #304 razorbacker


Excuse me to be blunt but this is a ridiculous argument. You basically argue against ANY process against anyone. If we assume innocent until proven guilty every suspect is potentially harmed to have their reputations illegitimately destroyed, hence there should not be a process against anyone.

Yes, we'll just bankrupt them with the full weight of the US FedGov, and then find them innocent.

No harm done, right?

388 Mad Mullah  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:25:32pm

I find Osama Bin Laden to be more reliable than Obama. At least with Osama, you know where he is coming from and it is clear what his goals are. With Obama, he , rarely states his clear intentions, he often changes his mind and he outright lies in certain cases.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if he chooses to go after American citizens who were merely doing their best to keep this country safe from terrorists. Afterall, there is no war against terrorists anymore.

389 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:25:33pm
390 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:26:06pm

re: #382 That's Mr. President to you

Good idea; since Muslims avoid pork, we could use the strategic pork initiative to put a shield around the country from those terrorists.
/

391 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:26:09pm

re: #353 3 wood

Yes.

Obama is sending a loud a clear message to government employees, disagree with me and you may get prosecuted.

* * **
If you want to serve your country and get promoted, join ACORN.

392 Desert Dog  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:26:45pm

re: #391 alegrias

* * **
If you want to serve your country and get promoted, join ACORN.

Resistance is futile, you will be absorbed....

393 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:26:50pm

Kenneth is writing the history of Canadian aviation as we speak.

JUST JERKING YOUR CHAINS, SILLY CANADIANS!

394 Fluffy Bunny  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:27:08pm

re: #382 That's Mr. President to you
Sorry, I am not amused...this one hits too close to home.

395 UberInfidel67  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:27:21pm

re: #355 Kosh's Shadow I saw a very interesting episode of the Naked Archaeologist one night. He was with a man who was showing him a hidden area underground where the Israelis made their own bullets. He slid back this HUGE piece of machinery, I think it had something to do with laundry, and underneath was a passageway. Might be time to dust off that old equipment.

396 Sean  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:27:34pm

re: #230 Ben Hur

I always liked that speech.

397 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:28:01pm

re: #386 Desert Dog

And, what about Rahm's $320,000 from Freddie Mac for 14 "grueling" months of hard work. Nice work if you can get it. I would run a company into an ice berg for half that.

Hah! I would run it into TWO icebergs, for a QUARTER of that.

Seriously, these guys keep talking as though you need special expertise to ruin a company. I bet I could do it quick and cheap. Should I advertise?

398 Desert Dog  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:28:01pm

re: #395 UberInfidel67

I saw a very interesting episode of the Naked Archaeologist one night. He was with a man who was showing him a hidden area underground where the Israelis made their own bullets. He slid back this HUGE piece of machinery, I think it had something to do with laundry, and underneath was a passageway. Might be time to dust off that old equipment.

They could sell it here for a huge profit

399 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:28:19pm

re: #361 der_ich

re: #304 razorbacker

Excuse me to be blunt but this is a ridiculous argument. You basically argue against ANY process against anyone. If we assume innocent until proven guilty every suspect is potentially harmed to have their reputations illegitimately destroyed, hence there should not be a process against anyone.

Excuse me to be blunt but you are being ridiculous.
The "harm" to these folks has already begun just with the mere mention that there will be "investigations" and possible charges.

What are they being charged with? Which laws have been "broken"? Where has any of this been specified? It's one thing to deliver a clear statement of what the crime is and what laws have been broken. That has not happened yet, there have just been vague hints that someone may have done something wrong or drawn the wrong conclusion from the information they had and therefore must be "investigated" for . . . something that has not yet been specified. That investigation process alone will be costly for whoever gets caught up in this.

And costly for us as well, because ultimately, the people who we have in charge of keeping us safe will be fearful of drawing any sort of a conclusion under TODAY'S laws for fear that someone down the line in 10 years might decide their actions warrant some sort of "investigation".

If you can't see the difference . . .

400 Desert Dog  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:28:34pm

re: #397 SanFranciscoZionist

Hah! I would run it into TWO icebergs, for a QUARTER of that.

Seriously, these guys keep talking as though you need special expertise to ruin a company. I bet I could do it quick and cheap. Should I advertise?

The sad things is, you might get some takers

401 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:28:38pm

re: #395 UberInfidel67

I saw a very interesting episode of the Naked Archaeologist one night. He was with a man who was showing him a hidden area underground where the Israelis made their own bullets. He slid back this HUGE piece of machinery, I think it had something to do with laundry, and underneath was a passageway. Might be time to dust off that old equipment.

I thought it was a different show; I saw it a few years ago. Yes, they hid the bullet making equipment under a room where they had a laundry - washing the British army's uniforms!

402 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:29:22pm

re: #387 OldLineTexan

Yes, we'll just bankrupt them with the full weight of the US FedGov, and then find them innocent.

No harm done, right?

exactly what der_ich (ick?) seems to be saying.

403 dingleB  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:29:56pm

I'm trying to find a scenario where the current two party system, filled with petty little 'droids, can break out of a this classic "prisoners dilemma". Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

404 Praxeus  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:30:21pm

Meh

405 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:31:20pm

re: #400 Desert Dog

The sad things is, you might get some takers

Hey, I need the work. And I know nothing about finance.

406 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:31:37pm

re: #387 OldLineTexan

Yes, we'll just bankrupt them with the full weight of the US FedGov, and then find them innocent.

No harm done, right?

der_ick needs to take a peek at what happened to those guys at Duke to figure out how "harm" is done by this kind of thing.

407 UberInfidel67  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:31:42pm

re: #398 Desert Dog
Nah, I think they may need it for themselves : (

408 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:31:45pm

re: #395 UberInfidel67

I saw a very interesting episode of the Naked Archaeologist one night. He was with a man who was showing him a hidden area underground where the Israelis made their own bullets. He slid back this HUGE piece of machinery, I think it had something to do with laundry, and underneath was a passageway. Might be time to dust off that old equipment.

It's a kibbutz in northern Israel.

I was taken there on a tour when I was on kibbutz.

It's in the laundry room. You press a switch on the wall and a large laundry machine slides to the side exposing a stair case.

It was an ammunition factory used by the Haganah. Only a number of kibbutzniks knew it existed.

There was also Israel's first flourecent tanning machine installed - in the 40s!

You couldn't have snow white farmers walking around when the Brits were patrolling and doing searches - it would be a dead give away. So everyone had to hit the tanning room before going back upstairs.

I'll never forget it. It's what made me start considering Aliya.

409 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:31:52pm

Erf Day!

Gore: 2009 is environmental 'Gettysburg'

"This year, 2009, is the Gettysburg for the environment. It is the time we have the opportunity to change."

Al "Picket" Gore.

410 Buck  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:32:06pm

re: #362 Kenneth

Like the Canadian Avro Arrow.

That was much worse. It was shut down, and then stolen... the engineers for that project were quickly snapped up by US interests...

It was the first delta-winged interceptor aircraft. That is a really big deal...

Oh, and the CBC movie that starred Dan Aykroyd? It was filmed here in Winnipeg, and my mother was the Set Dresser....

411 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:32:49pm

re: #386 Desert Dog

And, what about Rahm's $320,000 from Freddie Mac for 14 "grueling" months of hard work. Nice work if you can get it. I would run a company into an ice berg for half that.

* * * *

Too funny. You just don't know the right democrats, or you'd go far.

412 Desert Dog  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:32:56pm

re: #405 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey, I need the work. And I know nothing about finance.

When can you start? I'll send the private jet over to get you. We can redo your office in marble and silk, then you can start signing papers that will lead to the eventual destruction of our company. And, before it falls of the cliff, we will hand you a lovely golden parachute.

413 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:32:59pm

re: #379 OldLineTexan

The reason is still debated. One theory is that the US did not want anybody else, even an ally, to have a better plane. Another theory is that the KGB had infiltrated the AVRO program. Not sure how that means you can the program and destroy all the parts, but that's what they did.

Ben Hur,

It was an interceptor, not a fighter jet.

414 UberInfidel67  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:33:00pm

re: #401 Kosh's Shadow
Maybe it was a different show, but that is the only one I constantly see in Israel. Is the host a Jew I wonder?

415 doppelganglander  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:33:46pm

re: #334 Russkilitlover

An another attack on America and on LA in particular was prevented and for that, I'm grateful.

I would, however, love to know if the terrorists planned to take out the Shrine Auditorium as their designated target. Celebrity heads would spin off their necks trying to get their minds around that ;}

During the Oscars? Please?
/Kidding, kidding. No celebrities were harmed in the making of this post.

416 UberInfidel67  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:34:06pm

re: #408 Ben Hur
That was just awesome. Such ingenuity : )

417 LGoPs  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:34:14pm

re: #32 Kenneth

Right. But I'm guessing he won't "follow the law" all the way to the Democrats in congress who approved the EIT, nor to the former CIA Director George Tenet, appointed by Bill Clinton.

Nor to looking into what misteps and errors of judgement or derelictions of duty attended to Clinton himself by choosing not to respond to a long line of attacks starting with Mogadishu and ending with the USS Cole. A linear trajectory that led to 9-11 and the deaths of thousands of Americans. Not a chance that thjis will happen, of course.

This is Darkness at Noon.

418 der_ich  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:34:16pm

re: #326 looking closely

You miss the point.
...
Its ridiculous. These are professionals who did their legal homework and gave legal advice. Even if said counsel was wrong (and it almost certainly was NOT), since when is giving incorrect legal advice a prosecutable crime?

If there is any evidence of legal malfeasance on their part, then maybe it might be appropriate to have these lawyers sanctioned or disbarred, for it. Is there? Even one shred?

I think you make valid points but aren't you giving those professionals and the officers a carte blanche to basically "advise" and do anything loathsome and immoral they find necessary or worthwhile ? What about - just to take it to an extreme - a legal advice to kill terrorist A to pressure terrorist B?

419 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:34:27pm

re: #413 Kenneth

The reason is still debated. One theory is that the US did not want anybody else, even an ally, to have a better plane. Another theory is that the KGB had infiltrated the AVRO program. Not sure how that means you can the program and destroy all the parts, but that's what they did.

Ben Hur,

It was an interceptor, not a fighter jet.

Can one fight with an interceptor?

420 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:34:44pm

re: #414 UberInfidel67

Maybe it was a different show, but that is the only one I constantly see in Israel. Is the host a Jew I wonder?

That particular show, IIRC, went "underground" in various cities. That particular episode was in Israel, but they've had others elsewhere.

421 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:35:02pm

re: #410 Buck

An old prof of mine worked on the Avro when he was a youngster just starting out in avionics. Even his notebooks were taken & destroyed. He was pretty damn bitter about it all.

422 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:35:10pm

re: #416 UberInfidel67

That was just awesome. Such ingenuity : )

We're a wiley bunch.

(or we were)

423 Desert Dog  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:35:21pm

re: #419 Ben Hur

Can one fight with an interceptor?

One can shoot down a bomber loaded with A-Bombs

424 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:35:56pm

re: #419 Ben Hur

Can one fight with an interceptor?

Interceptors aren't designed to dogfight, but to shoot down bombers. They have to climb fast and fly fast to get to the bombers before they reach their targets, but they don't need to be very maneuverable.

425 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:36:32pm

I hope everyone who refused to vote for McCain because he wasn't conservative enough is fucking happy now.

426 UberInfidel67  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:36:45pm

re: #420 Kosh's Shadow
You are correct. It was all about the cool things underground. I stand corrected. (but I still love the Naked Archaeologist, and is he Jewish?)

427 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:36:46pm
428 greygandalf  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:36:50pm

re: #367 Kosh's Shadow

Even before this, Japan and South Korea have been working on their own fighter aircraft. They're more likely now to keep those projects going instead of buying ours.

I'd like south korea to replace our troops on the border of NK with theirs. How long are we going to be their protector?

429 HelloDare  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:36:50pm

re: #359 EmmmieG

I am working on a lesson on Ronald Reagan for the boys' club for our homeschool group. It will not surprise anyone that I was not exposed to Reagan's speech "A Time for Choosing" at any point during my education. I have read it now, and thought that just in case anyone else hadn't seen it, I would post a link.

So much in it is still so timely.

[Link: www.americanrhetoric.com...]

Listening to it now. It's SPINOFF worthy.

430 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:37:00pm

re: #359 EmmmieG

I am working on a lesson on Ronald Reagan for the boys' club for our homeschool group. It will not surprise anyone that I was not exposed to Reagan's speech "A Time for Choosing" at any point during my education. I have read it now, and thought that just in case anyone else hadn't seen it, I would post a link.

So much in it is still so timely.

[Link: www.americanrhetoric.com...]

That is garlic, holy water, cross, and stakes all in one to all the vampires.

431 Rancher  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:37:09pm

This must be so chilling and demoralizing to the intelligence community. Even foreign intelligence agencies will be dissuaded from cooperating with us because that cooperation may someday be disclosed for political reasons. No agent is safe, no matter what assurances you have from the President or the Justice Department sometime down the line your critics can come after you and throw you in jail. No lawyer will OK anything harsher than begging for information. We knew Obama would be Carter redux but I wouldn't have bet any odds he would destroy his main instrument in preventing another 9/11. I really think this is that serious. People will die because information could not obtained from those in the know.

432 Buck  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:37:09pm

re: #395 UberInfidel67

I saw a very interesting episode of the Naked Archaeologist one night. He was with a man who was showing him a hidden area underground where the Israelis made their own bullets. He slid back this HUGE piece of machinery, I think it had something to do with laundry, and underneath was a passageway. Might be time to dust off that old equipment.

Leslie Fruman the Series Producer of Naked Archaeologist is my cousin.

433 Desert Dog  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:37:29pm

re: #424 Kosh's Shadow

Interceptors aren't designed to dogfight, but to shoot down bombers. They have to climb fast and fly fast to get to the bombers before they reach their targets, but they don't need to be very maneuverable.

That emphasis cost us in Vietnam. The Migs were designed for dogfights. The Phantoms did not even had a gun at first! And, although they could fly damn fast, they could not turn as well. They were designed to kill Soviet bombers

434 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:37:31pm

re: #409 jcm

Erf Day!

Gore: 2009 is environmental 'Gettysburg'

Al "Picket" Gore.


EarthFirst Mourning Loss of a Tree - Crying & Screaming
I saw this at Ace of Spades but not sure whether or not to link there. So here it is straight from youtube.

Youtube Video
435 UberInfidel67  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:37:56pm

re: #422 Ben Hur
Still are. I don't pay attention to those "in charge". I trust more in the regular man on the street type : )

436 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:37:58pm

re: #426 UberInfidel67

You are correct. It was all about the cool things underground. I stand corrected. (but I still love the Naked Archaeologist, and is he Jewish?)

Yes, he is. And I like that show, although he does sometimes tend towards strange theories.

437 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:37:58pm

re: #423 Desert Dog

re: #424 Kosh's Shadow

Aha!

Very cool.

I tend to use the label "figher jet" the way people use "Kleenex."

438 yma o hyd  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:38:55pm

re: #418 der_ich

I think you make valid points but aren't you giving those professionals and the officers a carte blanche to basically "advise" and do anything loathsome and immoral they find necessary or worthwhile ? What about - just to take it to an extreme - a legal advice to kill terrorist A to pressure terrorist B?

You seem to assume that these professionals from the past Bush administration would have totally disregarded the law and the Constitution in order to support the indefensible and/or in order to support an illegal policy.

Pretty loathsome assumption, methinks.

439 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:39:16pm

re: #419 Ben Hur

The role of an interceptor at that time (1960's) was to intercept Russian bombers coming over the arctic to bomb North America. They were designed to fly high long and fast. They were not so maneuverable as a fighter.

440 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:39:17pm

Not having kept good track of the controversy, I suspect the CIA will be cut-free with Holder going after any in Justice(?) who wrote the "official legal guidance" - the Eric Purge.

Great can of beans, huh?

441 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:39:18pm

DHS right wing extremist update.......
Four Hesperia Skinheads arrested in two-county sweep

They were arrested for a variety of offenses including, possession of a loaded fire arm, assault with a deadly weapon, home invasion robbery and membership in a street gang. All are members of the Inland Empire Skinheads street gang, authorities said. Goodwin was sent to the hospital for observation.


Detectives recovered white supremacist gang paraphernalia including swastika banners, crossed battle axes, the emblem of the IES, brass knuckles, knives, blades, framed photographs and portraits of Hitler.


The investigation into the racist gang was sparked by a Hesperia attempted murder in October 2008, according to authorities. Since then, investigators learned IES members have been involved in a variety of illegal activities, including trafficking of narcotics, witness intimidation, conspiracy to commit murder, attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon, Ogaz said.


According to Ogaz, the gang was first documented by Riverside authorities in November 2002 and are closely associated to the much-larger Hammerskin Nation which has membership nationwide.

442 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:39:23pm

re: #374 Ben Hur

Canada?

Ben Hur -

Different time, different Canada. Most of the top personnel on the Arrow project were sucked up the exhaust pipe of the US Aerospace industry.
The Arrow was an advanced airframe for its time and as memory serves, the last big Defense System attempted by the Canadian MoD.

-S-

443 UberInfidel67  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:39:24pm

re: #432 Buck I wanna go on one of their trips! Hook a sistah up : )

444 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:39:36pm

re: #412 Desert Dog

When can you start? I'll send the private jet over to get you. We can redo your office in marble and silk, then you can start signing papers that will lead to the eventual destruction of our company. And, before it falls of the cliff, we will hand you a lovely golden parachute.

Graduation is on June 11, but I signed up to teach summer school. I think I'll rent a swank apartment in Manhattan and take the private jet in once or twice a week to sign things until summer school is over.

Also, we need a board position or two for my husband--something that will give him five or six hundred thou a year for pocket money. He'd prefer no more than two meetings a month.

The curtains in the office should be celadon--a little more gray than the celadon in the new Armani collection--and I'd feel more appreciated if it had a couple of da Vinci sketches, which I'll expect to keep when the company falls off a cliff.

445 Russkilitlover  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:41:15pm

re: #418 der_ich

I downdinged you for your outrageous leap of logic at the end.

446 UberInfidel67  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:41:20pm

re: #436 Kosh's Shadow
I could spend all day wandering the Holy Land with him.

447 HelloDare  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:41:21pm

re: #359 EmmmieG

I am working on a lesson on Ronald Reagan for the boys' club for our homeschool group. It will not surprise anyone that I was not exposed to Reagan's speech "A Time for Choosing" at any point during my education. I have read it now, and thought that just in case anyone else hadn't seen it, I would post a link.

So much in it is still so timely.

[Link: www.americanrhetoric.com...]

From the speech:

Senator Fulbright has said at Stanford University that the Constitution is outmoded. He referred to the President as "our moral teacher and our leader," and he says he is "hobbled in his task by the restrictions of power imposed on him by this antiquated document." He must "be freed," so that he "can do for us" what he knows "is best." And Senator Clark of Pennsylvania, another articulate spokesman, defines liberalism as "meeting the material needs of the masses through the full power of centralized government."

448 doppelganglander  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:41:24pm

re: #420 Kosh's Shadow

That particular show, IIRC, went "underground" in various cities. That particular episode was in Israel, but they've had others elsewhere.

Cities of the Underground. It's terrific, especially with the new host. The old one looked like Dave Atell and shouted a lot. The London one is probably my favorite -- it goes to Churchill's war room.

449 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:41:32pm

re: #419 Ben Hur

Can one fight with an interceptor?

Interceptor. Designed to sprint out at high speeds, so as to interdict the threat as far from friendly airspace as possible. Engage the bombers head on at long range with radar guided missiles. Bombers would not have fighter escorts since no fighters had the range. Therefore no need for fighter v. fighter capability.

Pure speed sleds, get out and nail the bomber as far away as possible.

450 DaddyG  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:42:07pm

re: #397 SanFranciscoZionist

Seriously, these guys keep talking as though you need special expertise to ruin a company. I bet I could do it quick and cheap.

Yeah but it takes a special kind of talent to be able to ruin an economy.

451 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:42:28pm

re: #438 yma o hyd

You seem to assume that these professionals from the past Bush administration would have totally disregarded the law and the Constitution in order to support the indefensible and/or in order to support an illegal policy.

Pretty loathsome assumption, methinks.

I agree with you Yma.

452 restitutor orbis  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:42:46pm

I don't think there will be any prosecutions or kangaroo courts anytime soon. This is all just to keep the pot bubbling. Obama isn't nearly as unpopular as he will be and if my gut is right, I think he will wait until he needs an especially large distraction before he throws Bush and Cheney to the howling bolshevik mob.

But he will do it, because he is a scumbag.

453 UFO TOFU  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:43:55pm

re: #441 Killgore Trout

One pregnant female gang member, Carrie Goodwin, 24, of Hesperia, had even tried to have her labor induced to have her child born on April 20


I didn't realize the IE had it's own nutjob gang of skinheads. I guess I'd better start paying closer attention.

454 brookly red  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:44:01pm

re: #450 DaddyG

Yeah but it takes a special kind of talent to be able to ruin an economy.

/but the will to do so is just as important.

455 Eowyn2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:45:36pm

Late to thread:
“We’re going to follow the evidence wherever it takes us, follow the law wherever that takes us,” Holder said to reporters at an Earth Day event. “No one is above the law,” he said, reiterating that the department had no intention to prosecute CIA interrogators who acted “in good faith” to follow official legal guidance

Doublespeak for:
"We're going to pretend we are doing something which will settle the nerves of the left psych ward but we wont do much because we know too many Democrats signed off on this. We will put what information we do find into a secure location and use it as blackmail material should we not have enough votes to pass our social programs, defund the military, castrate the CIA, and hamstring the FBI. If possible, we will link to a couple of conservative DAs along the Mexican boarder so they have to go along with us too."

456 Buck  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:45:43pm

re: #443 UberInfidel67

I wanna go on one of their trips! Hook a sistah up : )

Ya, me too.... she goes to Israel multiple times a year.

The funny part is that when she was younger, she was not a zionist at all. When her older sister moved to Israel in the 70's, Leslie thought she was crazy. Different tune now...

457 yma o hyd  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:45:45pm

re: #451 reine.de.tout

Hiya, {reine}!

Reading der-ick's reply, I thought for a moment I was transposed to KosKidz ...

458 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:46:16pm

re: #452 restitutor orbis

I don't think there will be any prosecutions or kangaroo courts anytime soon. This is all just to keep the pot bubbling. Obama isn't nearly as unpopular as he will be and if my gut is right, I think he will wait until he needs an especially large distraction before he throws Bush and Cheney to the howling bolshevik mob.

But he will do it, because he is a scumbag.

Whether there are prosecutions soon or not, I would be willing to bet that at least some of the folks who think they may get caught up in this are scrambling right now to hire legal representation.

So it has already had an effect.

459 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:47:00pm

Ay up me duck!

460 Desert Dog  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:47:05pm

re: #452 restitutor orbis

I don't think there will be any prosecutions or kangaroo courts anytime soon. This is all just to keep the pot bubbling. Obama isn't nearly as unpopular as he will be and if my gut is right, I think he will wait until he needs an especially large distraction before he throws Bush and Cheney to the howling bolshevik mob.

But he will do it, because he is a scumbag.

Scumbag or not, if they go forward with this witch hunt, it will only tear this country further apart and polarize it even more than it already is. It will also insure that once he is out of office, the Republicans will activate their "retro-active" anal microscopes as well and remind the Dems that Karma is a bitch. A vicious cycle that was supposed to end with the "Great Unifier Obama", right?

461 LGoPs  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:47:07pm

re: #431 Rancher

This must be so chilling and demoralizing to the intelligence community. Even foreign intelligence agencies will be dissuaded from cooperating with us because that cooperation may someday be disclosed for political reasons. No agent is safe, no matter what assurances you have from the President or the Justice Department sometime down the line your critics can come after you and throw you in jail. No lawyer will OK anything harsher than begging for information. We knew Obama would be Carter redux but I wouldn't have bet any odds he would destroy his main instrument in preventing another 9/11. I really think this is that serious. People will die because information could not obtained from those in the know.

But all that is worth it as long as we make Marcos and Arianna and those wonderful folks over at MoveOn.org happy.....
//// Stupid Motherfuckers.

462 alexknyc  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:49:17pm

re: #426 UberInfidel67

You are correct. It was all about the cool things underground. I stand corrected. (but I still love the Naked Archaeologist, and is he Jewish?)

If he's really naked, you might know if he WASN'T Jewish.
/

463 Aviator  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:49:19pm

Interesting reward for an agency that did quite a bit of backstabbing of the last administration.

464 calcajun  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:49:45pm

re: #19 rawmuse

You are. Safety is only an illusion, anyway.

465 Rancher  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:49:50pm

re: #428 greygandalf

I'd like south korea to replace our troops on the border of NK with theirs. How long are we going to be their protector?

We aren't really. Our little token force is there to die if the 600,000 North Korean forces on the border invades and the tons of artillery open up. My son Rustler was there on the DMZ and that's what he thought also.

466 Aviator  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:50:51pm

re: #460 Desert Dog

Scumbag or not, if they go forward with this witch hunt, it will only tear this country further apart and polarize it even more than it already is. It will also insure that once he is out of office, the Republicans will activate their "retro-active" anal microscopes as well and remind the Dems that Karma is a bitch. A vicious cycle that was supposed to end with the "Great Unifier Obama", right?

And you think Republicans will be back in power in the foreseeable future why?

467 Code Red 21  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:50:58pm

Would it be a little dramatic and over-the-top if I said I believe BO's administration is going to kill us?

468 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:50:58pm

Rapture?

469 Eowyn2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:51:05pm

re: #418 der_ich

I think you make valid points but aren't you giving those professionals and the officers a carte blanche to basically "advise" and do anything loathsome and immoral they find necessary or worthwhile ? What about - just to take it to an extreme - a legal advice to kill terrorist A to pressure terrorist B?

Perhaps you should read the list of torture crimes prior to assuming that laws were broken. I haven't heard that summary execution was performed anywhere. No thumb screws, no rack, no drawing and quartering.

470 UberInfidel67  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:51:09pm

re: #456 Buck The history there! Just thinking about it overwhelms me. Even though it is the land of Judaism, I as a Catholic still feel connected to the land also. Afterall, Jesus was a Jew. I want to walk where all of those holy men walked. I want to see the excavation sites.

/Damn, I need to get rich....real quick!

471 yma o hyd  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:51:55pm

It starts with the platitude 'nobody is above the law', then it cows the people at the CIA and other intelligence agencies - next step will be an investigation into the behaviour of the Armed Forces - not on the piddling level of single soldiers, but looking at the commanding officers.

Then it'll be the turn of the law enforcement departments.
You'll end up with police officers just like us in the UK ...

472 der_ich  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:52:58pm

re: #445 Russkilitlover

I downdinged you for your outrageous leap of logic at the end.

Fair enough. I am happy you have only found a leap of logic at the end. So it might not have been all idiotic ;). Will you be so kind and educate me on what is my leap of logic was?

473 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:53:13pm

Obama misreads Cuban offer, Fidel Castro says

President Obama misinterpreted Cuban President Raúl Castro's offer to start talks with the United States, Castro's brother Fidel said Wednesday, appearing to dismiss the U.S. leader's call for Cuba to release political prisoners.

They're laughing at us.

474 Opinionated  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:53:15pm

Hey, what could go wrong if Obama emasculates the CIA?

Maybe more of this:

Taliban Seize District Near Islamabad

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

475 Desert Dog  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:53:41pm

re: #465 Rancher

We aren't really. Our little token force is there to die if the 600,000 North Korean forces on the border invades and the tons of artillery open up. My son Rustler was there on the DMZ and that's what he thought also.

Our boys are there to let N. Korea know we are still around and they will disappear from the community of nations if they attack the South. We are a deterrent to their offensive potential. I had a friend stationed at the DMZ as well. He told me the Norks did psy-ops 24 hours a day....broadcasted nasty things at our boys, tried to get inside of their heads.

The 7th Fleet is there to let China know Taiwan is not their's too. I wonder how long that will last?

476 J.S.  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:53:57pm

I was under the impression that there's a separation of powers -- sooo, is the Justice Department now operating solely at the behest of Obama? Is it all about whether or not Obama decides to proceed with prosecutions, or is that a matter for the Department of Justice to decide -- sans interference?

477 jorline  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:54:20pm

re: #458 reine.de.tout

Thank you for the email reine...an amazing view of earth. :)

478 der_ich  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:54:23pm

re: #333 IslandLibertarian

Yes comrade, let the show trials begin.

/

Wow you have some trust into the US legal system.

479 kansas  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:54:40pm

re: #347 razorbacker

I suspect that Israel is not the only nation that is re-evaluating their reliance on American military support.

I'm pretty sure some Americans are. Me for one. Course I'm paranoid.

480 DaddyG  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:55:01pm

re: #474 Opinionated

Hey, what could go wrong if Obama emasculates the CIA?

Maybe more of this:

Taliban Seize District Near Islamabad

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Crud. Do you suppose the Pakistanis are rethinking their policy of stopping US troops from pursuing taliban over the Afghani border?

481 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:55:44pm

re: #476 J.S.

I was under the impression that there's a separation of powers -- sooo, is the Justice Department now operating solely at the behest of Obama? Is it all about whether or not Obama decides to proceed with prosecutions, or is that a matter for the Department of Justice to decide -- sans interference?

Justice Department is the legal arm of the Executive branch.

482 Ben Hur  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:55:58pm

re: #473 Occasional Reader

Obama misreads Cuban offer, Fidel Castro says


They're laughing at us.

At him.

483 Buck  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:56:35pm

re: #426 UberInfidel67

You are correct. It was all about the cool things underground. I stand corrected. (but I still love the Naked Archaeologist, and is he Jewish?)

He is jewish, I think he even wears a kippa. He lives in Toronto Canada...and as I understand is never far from a Hockey stick..

484 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:56:52pm

re: #482 Ben Hur

At him.

You forgot the rule: When it's something bad, it's us. When it's something good, it's him. Sorry, I mean, Him.

Gotta run to meeting.

485 DisturbedEma  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:57:07pm

re: #431 Rancher

This must be so chilling and demoralizing to the intelligence community. Even foreign intelligence agencies will be dissuaded from cooperating with us because that cooperation may someday be disclosed for political reasons. No agent is safe, no matter what assurances you have from the President or the Justice Department sometime down the line your critics can come after you and throw you in jail. No lawyer will OK anything harsher than begging for information. We knew Obama would be Carter redux but I wouldn't have bet any odds he would destroy his main instrument in preventing another 9/11. I really think this is that serious. People will die because information could not obtained from those in the know.


Well, at LEAST the loonie left will STFU about Plame now. . .///:)

486 J.S.  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:57:21pm

re: #481 jcm

but isn't there supposed to be independence between the two? Or are they simply the minions of Obama?

487 OldLineTexan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:57:37pm

re: #441 Killgore Trout

Good. How many Crips and Bloods are still at large?

488 DaddyG  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:57:46pm

re: #478 der_ich

Wow you have some trust into the US legal system.

There is nothing wrong with the system. There are plenty of problems with people who will use it as a tool of intimidation.

With the full power of the Executive branch life can be made miserable for anyone who faces a politically motivated lawsuit even if it is baseless.

489 DisturbedEma  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:58:25pm

re: #483 Buck

He is jewish, I think he even wears a kippa. He lives in Toronto Canada...and as I understand is never far from a Hockey stick..


My kind of man! JEWISH and hockey fan. . .if he was a Flames fan I might just have to. . .:)

490 RaiderDan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:58:29pm

Something tells me the CIA better step up its recruitment and jobs advertising over the next four years as there probably will be quite a few openings...

As an aside. Check out Byron York today on the NY Times burying its own scoop on Obama's DNI saying the harsh interrogation methods worked. No wonder they are going bankrupt.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Did-the-Times-bury-its-story-in-interrogations-effectiveness-43425137.html

Also, Nice finally to have a topic too that isn't related to the conservative civil war raging about LGF.

Not to be critical of Charles, who I have the utmost respect for over his dogged pursuit of CBS News and its phony TANG story, as well as his equally dogged efforts into forcing CNN to retract its equally phony Gaza-CPR story, but the last few weeks of red-on-red fighting has to stop, and soon.

I hope Charles doesn't ban me for saying this, but its nearly the end of the first half and we're down by four TDs. We need to sack the opposing QB named Obama, hard, and not worry about taking a 15-yard "roughing the passer" penalty.

As Al Pacino in Any Given Sunday said. "I don't care if you make mistakes. Make 'em BIG."

491 Rancher  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:58:31pm

re: #475 Desert Dog

Our boys are there to let N. Korea know we are still around and they will disappear from the community of nations if they attack the South. We are a deterrent to their offensive potential. I had a friend stationed at the DMZ as well. He told me the Norks did psy-ops 24 hours a day....broadcasted nasty things at our boys, tried to get inside of their heads.

The 7th Fleet is there to let China know Taiwan is not their's too. I wonder how long that will last?

Longer better answer but the results are the same. We are a "trip wire" that lets NK know they can't invade without dragging us into the conflict, but those troops are still sitting ducks. As for Taiwan, Nixon pretty much wrote them off long ago.

492 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:59:01pm
493 Sabnen  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:59:06pm

Will the Holder 'review' include the House and Senate Democrats from 2002 who voted and approved the interrogation tactics used then?

Second guessing and criminalizing past administration actions like this is new.

494 tfc3rid  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:59:39pm

re: #473 Occasional Reader

Obama misreads Cuban offer, Fidel Castro says


They're laughing at us.

Glad to see we are so quick to get on our knees and ball-wash despots...

Then we look like a bunch of bafoons.

495 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:59:50pm

The mainstreaming of Ron Paul continues.....
Ronald Reagan and Ron Paul: A Comparison

Youtube Video
496 greygandalf  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:00:37pm

re: #475 Desert Dog

Our boys are there to let N. Korea know we are still around and they will disappear from the community of nations if they attack the South. We are a deterrent to their offensive potential. I had a friend stationed at the DMZ as well. He told me the Norks did psy-ops 24 hours a day....broadcasted nasty things at our boys, tried to get inside of their heads.

So how about we replace our troops with south korean troops and nuke NK if they attack south korea?

497 Russkilitlover  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:00:48pm

re: #472 der_ich

Fair enough. I am happy you have only found a leap of logic at the end. So it might not have been all idiotic ;). Will you be so kind and educate me on what is my leap of logic was?

Your assumption that waterboarding, face slapping, and catapillers ipso facto leads to murder for gain. That, sir, takes your argument into the absurd and is a dead end for debate.

498 der_ich  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:01:13pm

re: #438 yma o hyd

You seem to assume that these professionals from the past Bush administration would have totally disregarded the law and the Constitution in order to support the indefensible and/or in order to support an illegal policy.

Pretty loathsome assumption, methinks.

No I don't assume this. But I assume a loop hole exists if we on principle don't prosecute advisers who advise the ones who take the illegal actions.

499 Dianna  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:01:20pm

re: #441 Killgore Trout

You did read the article, right?

This wasn't the sort of thing the DHS memo was about.

500 Sharmuta  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:01:29pm

re: #495 Killgore Trout

The mainstreaming of Ron Paul continues.....
Ronald Reagan and Ron Paul: A Comparison


[Video]

I'm going to be sick.

501 OldLineTexan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:02:36pm

re: #499 Dianna

You did read the article, right?

This wasn't the sort of thing the DHS memo was about.

DHS, Tea Party, Hammerskin Nation, Foreskinless Nation (a Jewish White Supremacist group), whatever. ;)

502 Buck  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:02:52pm

re: #489 DisturbedEma

My kind of man! JEWISH and hockey fan. . .if he was a Flames fan I might just have to. . .:)

I am jewish, a Flames fan (after the jets folded), and I love chocolate (an allusion to your icon here)....
re: #496 greygandalf

So how about we replace our troops with south korean troops and nuke NK if they attack south korea?

How about we replace our troops with Chinese troops... and they start paying for peace in their own hemisphere,,,

503 Sabnen  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:03:06pm

re: #498 der_ich

No I don't assume this. But I assume a loop hole exists if we on principle don't prosecute advisers who advise the ones who take the illegal actions.

What illegal actions?

504 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:03:17pm

re: #486 J.S.

but isn't there supposed to be independence between the two? Or are they simply the minions of Obama?

The Separation of Powers is between the Executive, Legislative and Judical branches.

Justice is supposed to follow the law. That said there is a lot of latitude for Justice to decide just what that law is, until corrected by legislation or a court ruling. A.G. Holder works for Obama and follows Obama's direction.

What is new here is the Bush Administration decided what the law was, congress approved and through a couple of court cases the courts adjusted it. The actions at the time were legal, what Obama / Holder are proposing is to change the interpretation of the law an hold people accountable to the new interpretation.

If they proceed it will be a major issue in the courts. So far courts are ruled against retroactive applications of law (as far as I know).

505 Eowyn2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:03:23pm

re: #473 Occasional Reader

Obama misreads Cuban offer, Fidel Castro says


They're laughing at us.

all the way to the bank

506 Rancher  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:03:32pm

re: #499 Dianna

You did read the article, right?

This wasn't the sort of thing the DHS memo was about.

And tell me again what is "rightwing" about racism? Or National Socialists?

507 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:03:43pm

re: #487 OldLineTexan

Good. How many Crips and Bloods are still at large?

That was exact same comment made over at Stormfront where I found the story.

508 'Nam Grunt  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:03:47pm

re: #495 Killgore Trout

Like I said the other day you are an idiot, why you stay here is unbelievable, and bammy is not going to try anyone, because there are lots of donks that will be brought up on charges that are culpable too!

509 dry_heavz_4_alla  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:04:06pm

re: #474 Opinionated

Hey, what could go wrong if Obama emasculates the CIA?

Maybe more of this:

Taliban Seize District Near Islamabad

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Hopefully they're aware of the strategic significance of the Tarbela Reservoir and Dam ... Islamabad's primary source of water and electricity.

510 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:04:39pm

Hillary Clinton questions Dick Cheney's credibility today.

YCMTSU.

511 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:04:41pm

Great idea, Mr. President. Turn the Intelligence Service into Vogons.

And introduce more Paralysis Analysis into Government.

Yeah. Great idea.

512 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:04:51pm

re: #492 buzzsawmonkey

Farce Gore--some seven years ago this bladder brought forth from out his fundament a new notion, conceived in idiocy and dedicated to the proposition that all Man is created evil.

Now we are engaged with the great Gramscian Whore, testing whether this nation, or any nation so enmeshed and so infiltrated, can long endure. We are met on a Green battlefield with that Whore. We have come to reassert proportion in that field, to contradict the case of those who'd control our lives as his notion might give. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

etc.

The Goresaidiot Address!

513 OldLineTexan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:05:46pm

re: #500 Sharmuta

I'm going to be sick.

mikechurch.com is mainstream? Who is he?

514 der_ich  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:05:55pm

re: #469 Eowyn2

Perhaps you should read the list of torture crimes prior to assuming that laws were broken. I haven't heard that summary execution was performed anywhere. No thumb screws, no rack, no drawing and quartering.

ufff. I guess I should not have put too much trust in people's ability to decipher a theoretical and - as I stated extreme example.

515 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:05:58pm

re: #409 jcm

Erf Day!

Gore: 2009 is environmental 'Gettysburg'


Al "Picket" Gore.

I am convinced that there is something about liberal politics which brings out the narcissist in its activists. There's this constant need to show themselves as Jedi fighting against some entrenched and wicked Mordor.

/metaphors mixed on purpose

516 KenJen  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:06:02pm

re: #495 Killgore Trout

The mainstreaming of Ron Paul continues.....
Ronald Reagan and Ron Paul: A Comparison

Youtube Video


That like comparing Rembrandt van Rijn to Thomas Kinncade.

517 J.S.  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:06:14pm

re: #504 jcm

I read a Politico website which quoted from a CBS transcript -- Holder stated of Obama: “He understands that great Justice Departments are those that separate themselves from the White House." (Personally, I don't like seeing a politicization of Federal laws.)

518 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:06:38pm

re: #474 Opinionated

Hey, what could go wrong if Obama emasculates the CIA?

Maybe more of this:

Taliban Seize District Near Islamabad

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Well, the CIA has been going full tilt after Taliban/AQ in the frontier provinces so they still have the eye on the ball for now.

The Administration's open door on prosecutions affects the policy choices made up the ladder, and will likely result in less actionable intel because people will not put their own neck and career on the line if they think that they're going to get prosecuted for it - even if it's actions meant to keep the nation safe from imminent terrorist attacks.

The situation in Pakistan is disintegrating on a near daily basis, and I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that we've already got a civil war there - with teh Taliban now claiming the frontier provinces as its own, and they're pushing on to Islamabad. So, alongside Afghanistan and Pakistan as threats, we're witnessing the birth of Talibanistan, which remains home to the AQ and Taliban threat that has been disrupting the region for years and which continues sheltering AQ.

519 calcajun  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:06:42pm

re: #467 Code Red 21

But they mean well, though.

520 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:06:56pm

Michael O'Hanlon of the lefty Brookings Institute just practically conceded Pakistan's going Taliban. Weakness works! Relax! What could go wrong again?

(told to Shepherd Smith of Fox, who moments earlier was protesting he didn't want his government to torture others "in his name".)

Learn to love the Taliban, then. Idjit.

521 Sharmuta  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:07:03pm

re: #513 OldLineTexan

I don't know how anyone can make that comparison. Reagan was not an isolationist.

522 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:07:10pm

re: #510 capitalist piglet

Hillary Clinton questions Dick Cheney's credibility today.

YCMTSU.

Was that you dropping a (nonalcoholic) beverage on your keyboard?

My reaction was more like "k,jhfghk,"

523 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:07:12pm
524 Idle Drifter  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:07:17pm

This is covered in the book "See No Evil" by Robert Baer. This has been stated before numerous times before on this blog and by others that the Intelligence Community will not do their jobs if it means the possible prosecution by their own country that had sent them into harms way to locate information needed to the security of our nation at home and our citizens and forces abroad. The President should tell the UN and the NGOs to shut the hell up over the lack of prosecutions of the intelligence services personnel and members of the Bush Administration. The number of such prosecutions should remain 0.

525 DaddyG  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:07:29pm

re: #495 Killgore Trout


Ronald Reagan and Ron Paul: A Comparison

Neither one has expressed a cogent thought since June 5, 2004.
They both peaked in the 80s
Both owe their political careers to dead communists
...

526 DisturbedEma  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:07:37pm

re: #502 Buck

How about we replace our troops with Chinese troops... and they start paying for peace in their own hemisphere,,,

Yes, chocolate is a must. . .:)

527 Russkilitlover  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:07:49pm

re: #516 KenJen

That like comparing Rembrandt van Rijn to Thomas Kinncade.

LOL!

528 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:07:49pm

re: #477 jorline

Thank you for the email reine...an amazing view of earth. :)

Glad you liked it!

529 Eowyn2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:08:07pm

re: #492 buzzsawmonkey

"The one thing that is going to allow us to win this is that thing that is inside these award winners," Gore said. "Remember what we have to do, this year."

FERTILIZER!

530 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:08:17pm

re: #516 KenJen

That like comparing Rembrandt van Rijn to Thomas Kinncade.

Yeah. Kinncade sold a lot more paintings.

531 calcajun  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:08:32pm

re: #516 KenJen

That like comparing Rembrandt van Rijn to Thomas Kinncade.

No--Kinncade knows something about money. Paul is one of these guys that does Elvis on black velvet.

532 Opinionated  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:08:44pm

re: #518 lawhawk

Caroline Glick's take on Pakistan.

Scary.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

533 DisturbedEma  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:08:49pm

re: #510 capitalist piglet

Hillary Clinton questions Dick Cheney's credibility today.

YCMTSU.

What's next "Bill Clinton calls local man a skirt chasing opportunistic attention whore"

534 yma o hyd  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:09:12pm

re: #498 der_ich

No I don't assume this. But I assume a loop hole exists if we on principle don't prosecute advisers who advise the ones who take the illegal actions.

The advisers were asked to give their considered legal opinion on just that point: were these acts legal or not?
They did the legal research they were asked to do and in their considered opinion these acts were legal.

Because a different government says - not based on legal advice but on political feelings - this was illegal, in their opinion, they should now be prosecuted, after the fact? Disregarding the small, inconvenient circumstance that their own party politicians in both houses saw nothing wrong with it either?

You seem to assume that anything done by the Bush administration simply has got to be illegal ...

535 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:09:24pm

If there are reasonable and probable grounds to believe that a non-citizen enemy combatant is withholding information which would be likely to save the lives of thousands of innocent human beings, then any person would be guilty of gross dereliction of duty if they did not authorize and pursue all available means to extract the information.
Such means to include infliction of extreme discomfort, torture, threats, blackmail, extortion, sexual favours and anything else that is likely to be effective.
Anyone who says otherwise is in my view a lying, callous, self-hating defeatist.
So let it be written.

536 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:09:47pm
537 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:09:49pm

re: #495 Killgore Trout

The mainstreaming of Ron Paul continues.....
Ronald Reagan and Ron Paul: A Comparison

Luapnor's campaign literature here featured a photo of Luapnor on an aeroplane with Ronald Reagan. Luapnor's been doing this for some time.

P.S. Luap Nor!

538 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:10:14pm

re: #517 J.S.

I read a Politico website which quoted from a CBS transcript -- Holder stated of Obama: “He understands that great Justice Departments are those that separate themselves from the White House." (Personally, I don't like seeing a politicization of Federal laws.)

What Obama / Holder say and what they do are not the same.

Release of the OLC memos was unprecedented.
Considering prosecution of the former administration in this manner is unprecedented.

They damn well know exactly what they are doing.

539 OldLineTexan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:10:31pm

re: #507 Killgore Trout

That was exact same comment made over at Stormfront where I found the story.

OMG, I guess I am a Stormfronter now. What a perfectly disgusting and vile remark.

Criminals should be arrested. End of story. Four Skinheads. Nice stringer. Lots of fish left in the pond, though.

I guess (using your brand of logic) that only "right-wing" criminals should be arrested.

540 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:10:33pm

re: #473 Occasional Reader

Obama misreads Cuban offer, Fidel Castro says

They're laughing at us.

* * * *
John McCain who was tortured by a Cuban communist in Hanoi, knew that prisoners of Fidel and Communists can check out but they can never leave.

Obama believed Castro's "Welcome to the Hotel Copacabana" same old song.

541 OldLineTexan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:11:12pm

re: #521 Sharmuta

I don't know how anyone can make that comparison. Reagan was not an isolationist.

Agreed. But my question was, how is this guy mainstream? Who is he?

542 calcajun  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:11:33pm

So--Gore thinks that 2009 is an environmental Gettysburg? Then, when the economies of the world are in tatters and we're no cooler than before, he can make like Marse Robert and tell us all that it was his fault.

That's one way to make hell freeze over.

543 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:11:40pm
544 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:12:19pm

re: #509 dry_heavz_4_alla

Hopefully they're aware of the strategic significance of the Tarbela Reservoir and Dam ... Islamabad's primary source of water and electricity.

And someone said one of Pakistan's nuclear sites is nearby. I hope India is prepared to stop the Taliban from getting those nukes, because Obama isn't.

545 KenJen  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:12:40pm

re: #530 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah. Kinncade sold a lot more paintings.

and wallpaper, plastic villages, cuckoo clocks, etc.

546 calcajun  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:13:24pm

re: #530 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And look at the people who bought them.

547 yma o hyd  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:13:32pm

re: #514 der_ich

ufff. I guess I should not have put too much trust in people's ability to decipher a theoretical and - as I stated extreme example.

Blydi patronising, that!

Downdinged you.
This debate is not about some lofty or extreme examples in a seminary about law and torture - this is about people who have to protect the USA and should not have to look over their shoulders because years later some ideologists might persecute them.
Its got nothing at all to do with not being able to debate some 'extreme' examples.

548 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:13:35pm

re: #522 Zimriel

Was that you dropping a (nonalcoholic) beverage on your keyboard?

My reaction was more like "k,jhfghk,"

The Clintons have no sense of self-irony.

And then I hear on the radio (though I haven't seen it first-hand yet) that the media is taking Cheney to task for being critical of a current president.

Democrats personally screwed over that precedent and they said NOTHING, now they are attacking Cheney for it? Some days I think I'd hit somebody with a bat if they walked into this room. Good thing there's nobody within my immediate vicinity right now.

549 alegrias  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:14:46pm

re: #544 Kosh's Shadow

And someone said one of Pakistan's nuclear sites is nearby. I hope India is prepared to stop the Taliban from getting those nukes, because Obama isn't.

* * * *
Plus Obama's trying to run General Motors, while in India, Mr. Tata runs his own profitable car manufacturer.

Yes, I trust India to take care of Taliban/Pakistan better than Obama will.

550 3 wood  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:15:01pm

re: #473 Occasional Reader

They're laughing at us.

Quite true.

And given that, and give this threat to prosecute policy makers in the CIA, what it to stop any terrorists out there now for going after us as hard as they can now?

551 dry_heavz_4_alla  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:15:17pm

re: #518 lawhawk

The fact that this development doesn't trump everything going on in Washington today leads me to wonder if they really do have their eye on the ball. Islamabad (60 miles from Buner) is home to the Kahn nuke facilities, and Buner gives them access to Islamabad's electricity and water supply (the Tarbela Reservoir). In the meantime, everyone in Washington is gazing at their belly-buttons agonizing over what they have wraught by being so insensitive to terrorists.

552 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:16:14pm
553 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:16:59pm

re: #499 Dianna

You did read the article, right?

This wasn't the sort of thing the DHS memo was about.

Heh. You guys are funny. This is exactly what the memo was about. As I recall skinheads were specifically mentioned. I would quote the report for you but I suspect it won't make any difference so I'm not going to bother.

554 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:17:01pm

re: #490 RaiderDan

I hope Charles doesn't ban me for saying this, but its nearly the end of the first half and we're down by four TDs. We need to sack the opposing QB named Obama, hard, and not worry about taking a 15-yard "roughing the passer" penalty.

Then take that argument over to the antiLGF blogs and tell them to stop supporting people who are no less genocidal than Bill Ayers and no less thuggish than Hugo Chavez. Tell them to stop posting lies about Charles's personal life and slanders about LGF's commenters.

555 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:17:25pm

re: #513 OldLineTexan

Some radio host.

556 razorbacker  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:17:36pm

re: #518 lawhawk

You sure seem to be awfully worried about that tiny country with that little bitty nuclear bomb.

557 der_ich  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:17:54pm

re: #497 Russkilitlover

Your assumption that waterboarding, face slapping, and catapillers ipso facto leads to murder for gain. That, sir, takes your argument into the absurd and is a dead end for debate.

That's what I tried to do with the - as I said: extreme example of murder - a reductio ad absurdum of the position that there can be no prosecution of legal advisers on principle.

558 OldLineTexan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:17:59pm

re: #555 Killgore Trout

Some radio host.

Thanks, I had figured that out from the website.

How mainstream is he?

559 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:18:23pm

re: #533 DisturbedEma

What's next "Bill Clinton calls local man a skirt chasing opportunistic attention whore"

LOL

Mrs. "Corkscrew Landing" has learned from The Master...I'll give her that much. Being an expert, maybe I shouldn't dismiss her so quickly.

560 gregb  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:19:17pm

I agree--nobody is above the law, but projecting US laws onto non-US citizens? I think that's a little grey area. So the 4th applies to terrorists now?

561 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:20:23pm
562 J.S.  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:22:37pm

re: #538 jcm

Yeah. (I was also just reading a column -- NY Times -- about Obama's economic plans, etc. -- when coupled with these national security issues, etc., Obama is somehow even exceeding expectations of becoming one's "worst nightmare." and it's not even 100 days into office...)

563 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:22:38pm

re: #546 calcajun

And look at the people who bought them.

"And, Jesus, people bought 'em."

-Eagles. "The Last Resort".

564 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:23:21pm
565 Code Red 21  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:23:31pm

re: #519 calcajun

But they mean well, though.

You're right I'll try to keep that in mind.
//

566 Rancher  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:23:44pm

re: #532 Opinionated

Caroline Glick's take on Pakistan.

Scary.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]


Pretty spot on however. Sooner or later the Military and ISI have to abandon the Taliban.

567 rawmuse  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:25:09pm

I am no military authority (far from it) but
With a policy such as this, it will no longer make sense to take prisoners, since no information will be obtained from them. May as well dispense them on the battlefield.

568 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:26:22pm

re: #467 Code Red 21

Would it be a little dramatic and over-the-top if I said I believe BO's administration is going to kill us?

Don't exaggerate. I'm sure only some of you will be killed.

569 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:28:16pm
570 dry_heavz_4_alla  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:28:51pm

re: #564 Iron Fist

You gotta spare opium pipe? I tried smoking that Hopium shit Obama's been passing around, but it just made me cough. And a little nauseous.

Obama is the Hopiate of the masses, dontcha know?

571 Rancher  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:33:57pm

re: #567 rawmuse

I am no military authority (far from it) but
With a policy such as this, it will no longer make sense to take prisoners, since no information will be obtained from them. May as well dispense them on the battlefield.


Take no prisoners makes for some mighty fanatic soldiers. Let them surrender and many will. Interogations like we are talking about are only effective on high level in the know operatives like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed anyway, not your average grunt.

572 Dianna  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:42:56pm

re: #506 Rancher

And tell me again what is "rightwing" about racism? Or National Socialists?

I don't care if it's left-wing, right-wing, or just deranged. I don't want vileness politicized. I don't want police work turned into "see! see!", either.

I care that the police investigated and acted on a dangerous, violent group.

573 jorline  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:49:57pm

re: #550 3 wood

Quite true.

And given that, and give this threat to prosecute policy makers in the CIA, what it to stop any terrorists out there now for going after us as hard as they can now?

Hey 3 wood...hope you are well.

Tell me about the markets tomorrow. It appears WS is blowing off bank profits and waiting for corporate profit reports due over the next two day.
What's your feel?

574 NYCHardhat  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:50:43pm

...blood will be on your hands Obama...

575 Buck  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:51:51pm

re: #572 Dianna

I don't care if it's left-wing, right-wing, or just deranged. I don't want vileness politicized. I don't want police work turned into "see! see!", either.

I care that the police investigated and acted on a dangerous, violent group.

Well I care that the media, and the left get to slander the right by associating us with Nazi's.

There is nothing Right Wing about Nazi's.

I have no problem calling extremists exactly that... but those nazis are not right or left.... just extremists.

576 RaiderDan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:51:57pm

Wow. My first down ding...

BuzzSaw...

I am not talking "impeachment."

"Sacking" the quarterback is not the same as rolling on his knees from behind ala Tom Brady. A sack is a legal takedown of a QB that forces him hopefully in future possessions to develop a case of happy feet (ie. flip-flopping on "torture memos" so as to placate his left wing, thus cementing his reputation as a weak politician) or, in the case of the Tea Parties and CNN, forcing your opponents into unforced errors (ie. Susan Roesgen's unforgettable self-immolation, and that of her network on live national television)

So in that case, the Tea Parties did a lot a good, reviving a moribund base. As Byron York wrote the other day, the left is lashing out at the Tea Parties, because they fear they have awoken a sleeping giant of p8ssed-off taxpayers angry at out of control federal spending, the bread-and-butter of the Reagan coalition.

As far as I'm concerned, the liberal MSM's reaction to the Tea Parties was a case of a QB getting "happy feet."

We need more of that. Not less.

577 katemaclaren  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:58:10pm

re: #78 livefreeor die

BEFORE his term has ended, in my opinion.

578 yochanan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 2:04:38pm

the target will be much higher than the c.i.a.
think bush & cheney or just a level below them.

579 ladycatnip  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 2:19:35pm

Late to the thread and off to work in minutes, but if Obama opens this Pandora's box, then Pelosi and Reed, along with a host of other dems should be prosecuted as well, since they knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it.

As far as the O actually sending the hounds after his political enemies (basically anyone who supported the war and supported getting information out of prisoners of war), this will bring a chill of monumental proportions to the CIA, FBI, and DHS in going after enemies of our country. No one will want to make any decisions or be willing to do the hard thing if crucial information is at stake - information that could avert killing innocent Americans. There are CIA documents that prove their interrogation techniques stopped an attack on Los Angeles a few years ago.

It also sends a clear message that the O's sworn vow to protect the United States meant absolutely nothing to him, as he's more interested in getting rid of political foes and protecting the rights of terrorists than he is in protecting our country.

I really miss Bush right now.

580 DisturbedEma  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 2:30:56pm

re: #564 Iron Fist

You gotta spare opium pipe? I tried smoking that Hopium shit Obama's been passing around, but it just made me cough. And a little nauseous.

and it costs A LOT!

581 DisturbedEma  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 2:32:11pm

re: #568 Kenneth

Don't exaggerate. I'm sure only some of you will be killed.

Sigh. . .

582 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 3:03:43pm

re: #70 JammieWearingFool

It's pretty clear Obama cares more about the safety and welfare of your average ACORN agitator than he does the CIA.

And the average American, for that matter.

When any future attack happens, he'd better be prepared to have a lot of blood on his hands. He'll own it.

I doubt it....he'll just blame Bush.

/and the morons who voted for him will believe it...

583 anotherindyfilmguy  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 3:11:35pm

re: #22 Kenneth

A couple days ago, Obama visited Langley and told the staff he won't prosecute agents doing their job. Today, he suggested he might just let AG Holder go after them. Sounds like the Obama admin is playing Good Cop/Bad Cop with the CIA.

You know the night's going to be long and dark when the guy playing bad cop starts playing good cop and then goes back to bad cop... you wonder what the other cop is going to do... it wouldn't be so scary a thing if they at least split the role of good cop/bad cop...

584 anotherindyfilmguy  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 3:14:04pm

re: #210 Kenneth

Maybe there will be a mini-civil war there... not that they'd be doing their jobs effectively while fighting for their careers etc... oh wait... Mission accomplished for the O'...

585 Lynn B.  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 3:14:09pm

re: #194 HelloDare

Has anybody brought this up?

What about Jay Rockefeller and Dianne Feinstein on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence? Not only did they know what was going on, they were okay with it.

I'm sure a lot of Democrats are giving him heat on this. A lot of them are going to be "probed" by the defense attorneys.

From what I read yesterday, Feinstein is actually one of the ones who was pushing him to do this.

Yesterday, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, Senate Intelligence Committee chairwoman, "wrote Mr. Obama asking him not to rule out prosecutions until her panel completed an investigation over the next six to eight months."

586 der_ich  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 3:20:56pm

re: #547 yma o hyd

Blydi patronising, that!

Downdinged you.
This debate is not about some lofty or extreme examples in a seminary about law and torture - this is about people who have to protect the USA and should not have to look over their shoulders because years later some ideologists might persecute them.
Its got nothing at all to do with not being able to debate some 'extreme' examples.

I disagree. There is no harm in government officials looking over their shoulders every once in a while when it comes to universal humanitarian rights. US security does not gain by giving a free pass to CIA to do theoretically anything immoral. On the contrary the better they think those things through the more effective they can be. Lofty discussions in a seminary might come down to ugly reality very quickly if you just assume that the boys "who protect the USA" are above any failures. I think history will show that Bush was one of the greatest presidents the USA ever had, that does not mean that he could not have overstepped proper conduct in this or in other cases, during the exceptional circumstances the USA were in after 9-11. And it does not mean that overzealous officials did not overstep legal or moral boundaries in their honourable effort to protect America.

I hope looking closely is right and the prosecutorial discretion can throw the case, because they will find no good reason to believe they're guilty, and no evidence to make such case, but it would be unwise and unjust to decide just to forget about it without reviewing the issue first. The same goes for in 4 years.

587 FrogMarch  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 3:42:35pm

I just wanted to take this opportunity to say: Hillary clinton disgusts me.

588 stevenk  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 3:53:05pm

Holder is a criminal thug. He worked FOR the pardon of Marc Rich. He has proposed releasing Chinese Muslim Guantanamo detainees into the United States. And now he would prosecute those who developed interrogation tactics used on KSM, the lead planner of 9/11.

589 Lynn B.  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 4:09:26pm

re: #586 der_ich

I disagree. There is no harm in government officials looking over their shoulders every once in a while when it comes to universal humanitarian rights. US security does not gain by giving a free pass to CIA to do theoretically anything immoral. On the contrary the better they think those things through the more effective they can be. Lofty discussions in a seminary might come down to ugly reality very quickly if you just assume that the boys "who protect the USA" are above any failures. I think history will show that Bush was one of the greatest presidents the USA ever had, that does not mean that he could not have overstepped proper conduct in this or in other cases, during the exceptional circumstances the USA were in after 9-11. And it does not mean that overzealous officials did not overstep legal or moral boundaries in their honourable effort to protect America.

What are "universal humanitarian rights" and how do they trump the reasoned legal opinions of those who are paid to research and formulate them for the protection of the United States, its citizens and its government?

Who here has suggested giving ANYONE a "free pass?"

Since when can a U.S. citizen, let alone a government employee be criminally prosecuted for doing something "immoral?"

You are the one doing the assuming here.

This discussion is not about whether President Bush "overstepped proper conduct in this or in other cases." Are you suggesting that, if he did, he should be prosecuted as well? For "overstepping proper conduct?"

Again, there is nothing criminal about being "overzealous" (yet another assumption on your part), or "overstepping ... moral boundaries" (ditto). And your implication that legal advisors overstepped legal boundaries by rendering a supported legal opinion that you or Obama or anyone else happens to disagree with reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of how our justice system works.

I hope looking closely is right and the prosecutorial discretion can throw the case, because they will find no good reason to believe they're guilty, and no evidence to make such case, but it would be unwise and unjust to decide just to forget about it without reviewing the issue first. The same goes for in 4 years.

The problem with your "reasoning" here is that there is no case unless they invent one and nothing to be "guilty" of except coming to a reasoned conclusion that's now considered politically incorrect. And it would not be either unwise or unjust "just to forget about" launching a political witch hunt simply because you don't agree with the policies of a former government administration. To the contrary.

590 LGoPs  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 4:28:54pm

re: #587 FrogMarch

I just wanted to take this opportunity to say: Hillary clinton disgusts me.

Yeah, no shit. The smartest woman in the world, upon her first meeting with the Russians, couldn't think of anything more clever than to give them a Reset Button. And then had it translated wrong. Is this a TV Sitcom we're in or a nightmare?

591 J.S.  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 4:35:22pm

re: #585 Lynn B.

Feinstein was on CNN yesterday and she adamantly denied knowing anything at all about any torture (water-boarding) going on...yet she's been on the Senate Intelligence Committee (even being the chairwoman) for years (including the time in question, during which the alleged torture was taking place.)

592 Solomon2  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 4:40:31pm

A high school chum of mine served on one of Clinton's White House ethics panels in the 1990s where they addressed the question to the effect of, "If a terrorist planted a nuclear bomb in D.C. and the only way to discover and defuse it was by torturing the terrorist, should the terrorist be subjected to torture?"

The answer of the panel, if I recall correctly, was that torturing the terrorist was morally wrong but should be done anyway.

593 Seagreenroom  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 4:56:20pm

B. Hussein's priority is taking out his political adversaries.

It's what he did in Chicago and it's what he's doing here.

The fact that it will endanger the country matters not a whit.

When we are next attacked, let's hope he'll be unceremoniously frog marched from The White House.

594 JarHeadLifer  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 5:08:31pm

re: #12 lawhawk


As it stands, everything Obama says comes with an expiration date, and in this instance, it means a further politicization of national security. It also hamstrings those who are on the front lines since it needlessly exposes them to second guessing by the chattering classes who have seemingly forgotten that hamstrining intel gathering directly leads to problems for US national security and undermines our abilities to find threats before they can be carried out.

Very well said. It should be repeated frequently.

595 rumcrook  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 5:21:44pm

all CIA should walk off the job.

walk off the job and say enough! we will no longer work to keep the ungrateful american public safe.

I hear Obismal likes apples, lets see how he likes them apples.

596 thatemailname  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 5:22:20pm

The answer to the question is "yes", of course he will prosecute. And the "huge outcry" over the promise not to prosecute, at least the one that mattered, came from George Soros.

597 thatemailname  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 5:23:20pm

re: #591 J.S.

Feinstein was on CNN yesterday and she adamantly denied knowing anything at all about any torture (water-boarding) going on...yet she's been on the Senate Intelligence Committee (even being the chairwoman) for years (including the time in question, during which the alleged torture was taking place.)

Feinstein could adamantly deny knowing anything about anything, and still be telling the truth.

598 thatemailname  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 5:27:23pm

re: #586 der_ich

I disagree. There is no harm in government officials looking over their shoulders every once in a while when it comes to universal humanitarian rights.

You may be correct here, but that is not the current situation. This is not a case of "government officials looking over their shoulders". This is a case of an administration deciding one thing, then reversing its position two days later. Why? Because George Soros said so, that's why.

599 hopperandadropper  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 5:27:49pm

If they try this, it will just about guarantee Republican majorities in the House and possibly the Senate after the 2010 election- assuming that they don't go Chavez and find some reason to delay the election.

600 thatemailname  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 5:30:23pm

re: #180 Noam Chumpski

In the end, you have to take Obama's word until he breaks his word.

Which means we only have to wait, say, a week?

601 LesLein  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 5:45:23pm

re: #78 livefreeor die

I wonder if Obama realizes that setting this precedent will likely come back to bite him in the tush when his term has ended.

He'll probably give himself a pardon before leaving office.

602 ladycatnip  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 6:26:48pm

#598 thatemailname

#586 der_ich

I disagree. There is no harm in government officials looking over their shoulders every once in a while when it comes to universal humanitarian rights.

You may be correct here, but that is not the current situation. This is not a case of "government officials looking over their shoulders". This is a case of an administration deciding one thing, then reversing its position two days later. Why? Because George Soros said so, that's why.

It's also about criminalizing politics - a very handy way to get rid of your political enemies. And even if they are found not guilty, the horrendous pile of money they had to fork out for the defense will leave them close to penniless; not to mention the red flag to any patriot that wants to run for office - anyone with a brain will decline. Which doesn't leave much of a pool of choices.

Was listening to Hugh Hewitt on the way home from work, and they were discussing fees upwards of $1000.00 per hour because of the team of laywers one would need for this type of defense. The other thing is there is no law anywhere on the books here in the U.S. that says waterboarding is illegal.

603 ladycatnip  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 6:32:17pm

Another point about this possible debacle - the One may be doing this as a distraction. Just think of all the things Himself could ram through Congress while we're all busy focusing on this drama.

604 illini72  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 6:41:18pm

This man stands for everything and nothing. He never takes a definitive stance on any topic; abortion, gay rights, prosecuting the "torturers", etc.
This guy is the "Urkel" of the world's schoolyard.

605 retief_99  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 6:56:58pm

If we are going to assume the philosophy of absolute morality in fighting almost any enemy we are destined to lose that battle. Look back at almost any conflict the US has been involved in and you will see that we have fought enemies who redefined the meaning of barbarism. We began using tactics that I am sure caused many commanders to have sleepless nights because of the decisions and actions that they had to choose to pursue in order to win the wars. Decisions to firebomb German and Japanese cities. The use of the atomic bomb on Japan. These decisions were made to save lives of our allies and Americans. They probably not easy to make. In the context of the atrocities of what the muslim terrorists, the Tali ban and Al Quaida (sic) have committed, the so called torture methods used by the US are a JOKE. The persons who were "tortured" are still alive with their heads intact, the have no physical injuries. Ask the Americans and others who have been guests of the hostile muslim actors how they were treated. How many of them even survived? This is nothing more than a political move to shift the discussion away from the other controversial actions by the current administration. In my opinion it will in the long run will be a damaging effort in the long run. The folks pushing this need to remember in a few years they will be the previous administration.

606 Sacred Plants  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 1:16:25am

Will he go after destruction of evidence?

607 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:01:15am

At Core of Detainee Fight: Did Methods Stop Attacks?

This is to be expected from the NYT, but is not the real question whether they (CIA) thought more attacks were likely? Surely everyone in Congress would have said yes after 9/11?

608 Tricky Dick  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:11:13am

Reminescent of the Stalinist purges. The left are vile creatures who would sell their souls just to get revenge on the Bush administration. If they go forward with this, they will regret it.

609 eaglewingz08  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:43:53am

Maybe Holder should follow the evidence on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to indict all those democraps involved in creating the financial crisis that led to this recession? Just a thought.


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