There’s a bill currently making its way through Connecticut’s legislature that would remove the statute of limitations for child sex abuse cases.
Connecticut bishops are mobilizing to fight against it.
The proposed change to the law would put “all Church institutions, including your parish, at risk,” says the letter, which was signed by Connecticut’s three Roman Catholic bishops.
1 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:25:05pm |
Do they not understand that fighting makes it worse?
| 2 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:26:12pm |
and unless the bill recommends Capital Punishment, it does not go far enough, in my opinion.
3 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:26:15pm |
so in other words all sexual abuse should be reported by the bishops unless the statute of limitations has passed.
4 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:26:42pm |
The proposed change to the law would put “all Church institutions, including your parish, at risk,” says the letter, which was signed by Connecticut’s three Roman Catholic bishops.
Yeah.
5 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:26:58pm |
There is no statue of limitations on the suffering. Why should the punishment have a statue of limitations?
(Of course, I am for bringing any case to prosecution as soon as possible.)
| 6 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:28:30pm |
So I read a little more and this only applies to civil cases, darn it, I really want CP for Child Molesters.
7 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:29:02pm |
Some things are so heinous that I can’t imagine what people were thinking when they put in a statute of limitations anyway.
8 |
reloadingisnotahobby Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:30:35pm |
re: #5 EmmmieG
I can see a lot of bogus cases coming before the court that have no “perp”
to deny or defend him /herself (their dead) …in hopes the Catholic Church just “writes a check” with a lot 0000’s!
9 |
rwoods Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:32:04pm |
Does this legislation apply to public and private institutions - or just the Catholic Church?
I’m guessing it exempts public school teachers - otherwise the unions would be yelling from the rooftops.
Don’t see how it passes constitutional muster without applying equally
| 10 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:32:15pm |
The proposed change to the law would put “all Church institutions, including your parish, at risk,” says the letter, which was signed by Connecticut’s three Roman Catholic bishops.
If your parish was raping kids, your parish deserves to be “at risk”. These guys are throwing water on an oil fire, imo. They obviously don’t get it.
| 11 |
steve_davis Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:33:56pm |
I have to agree with the church on this one. My dad’s a retired Anglican priest. I can’t imagine what it would be like for either him or a diocese to have to fight someone who decides to bring charges over something that allegedly happened in 1960. As horrible as child abuse is, the witch-hunts of the 1980’s should certainly be a cautionary tale of what can happen in an area where there’s generally no evidence except for people’s testimony.
| 12 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:34:01pm |
re: #8 reloadingisnotahobby
I can see a lot of bogus cases coming before the court that have no “perp”
to deny or defend him /herself (their dead) …in hopes the Catholic Church just “writes a check” with a lot 0000’s!
This would be a problem. The only way I can think of to guard against it is that awards are paid out in kind to a therapist.
The problem with the statute of limitations in a child molestation case is the youth of the victim. The statute is often up before they are old enough, and brave enough, to be ready to take the stand.
| 13 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:34:44pm |
re: #9 rwoods
Does this legislation apply to public and private institutions - or just the Catholic Church?
I’m guessing it exempts public school teachers - otherwise the unions would be yelling from the rooftops.
Don’t see how it passes constitutional muster without applying equally
I don’t think the unions are rushing to defend molestors, first of all, and secondly, the constitution says exactly diddly squat about statues of limitations. You can extend or contract the deadline all you want, it doesn’t even begin to become a constitutional issue.
| 14 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:37:59pm |
The one catch here is potentially that this wouldn’t apply. They are changing a law, and laws traditionally can be made to retroactively apply — I’m not a lawyer here.
Any lawyers or legal experts know of the parts of the constitution that apply, and what the situation is here if they change the range?
| 15 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:38:41pm |
re: #13 Fozzie Bear
I don’t think the unions are rushing to defend molestors, first of all, and secondly, the constitution says exactly diddly squat about statues of limitations. You can extend or contract the deadline all you want, it doesn’t even begin to become a constitutional issue.
The constitutional issue here is that US laws must apply to the entire population.
The question I would have, and I’m no lawyer, is whether public/private is a distinction that would pass muster.
| 16 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:39:38pm |
re: #15 EmmmieG
Firstly we don’t know that this just applies to clergy do we? Anyone have a copy or link to the proposed bill?
| 17 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:41:27pm |
And I looked deeper again, It does apply to criminal prosecutions, but that doesn’t make news, only the civil aspect of it does, when the sickening abusers and apologists for the abusers cry foul at being called to task for abusing children.
Sorry for the above sentance.
| 18 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:43:04pm |
The section of the article regarding specifying church or churches look like they were added after the church complained about the Generic bill :
T
he bill has been revised to address some of the church’s concerns about frivolous abuse claims against it, according to Connecticut state Rep. Beth Bye, one of the bill’s sponsors.“The church didn’t recognize that this bill makes improvements,” Bye said. “The victims — their lives have been changed and some will never recover from years of sexual abuse. For me, it’s about giving them access to the courts.”
Under the bill’s provisions, anyone older than 48 who makes a sex abuse claim against the church would need to join an existing claim filed by someone 48 or younger. Older claimants would need to show substantial proof that they were abused.
“They were worried about frivolous lawsuits and so we made the bar high,” Bye said.
| 19 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:43:58pm |
re: #15 EmmmieG
The constitutional issue here is that US laws must apply to the entire population.
The question I would have, and I’m no lawyer, is whether public/private is a distinction that would pass muster.
Different states can have different statutes, that’s not a problem. And, so long as the statute is changed for all incidents of violation of a given law, then it doesn’t violate the equal protection clause.
In other words, they can extend the statute of limitations on all child sex abuse cases in Connecticut without violating the equal protection clause, so long as they don’t distingush between bifferent types of alleged offenders.
In other other words, the statute is associated with alleged violations of a given law, not with the nature or identity of the offenders, unless the law in question already makes such a distinction.
20 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:44:07pm |
re: #9 rwoods
Does this legislation apply to public and private institutions - or just the Catholic Church?
I’m guessing it exempts public school teachers - otherwise the unions would be yelling from the rooftops.
Don’t see how it passes constitutional muster without applying equally
Why, pray tell, would you guess that?
And isn’t it cute that you’re worried about the Constitutionality of something you made up?
| 21 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:44:59pm |
re: #16 Thanos
Firstly we don’t know that this just applies to clergy do we? Anyone have a copy or link to the proposed bill?
23 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:45:50pm |
Well if it is true what does it say about your choice of Parish?
///
24 |
Wozza Matter? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:45:53pm |
just had a fruitful discussion downstairs - i love that people here (for the most part) are willing to look at new evidence and reconsider their views.
good night everybody.
| 25 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:46:02pm |
re: #21 Stonemason
That link to the Bill would make a good update…
| 26 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:46:03pm |
re: #16 Thanos
Firstly we don’t know that this just applies to clergy do we? Anyone have a copy or link to the proposed bill?
Of course it doesn’t, thats the point. You can tweak the statute without specific regard to any group, and thats exactly what happened here, if I am reading it correctly.
| 27 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:46:18pm |
re: #15 EmmmieG
The constitutional issue here is that US laws must apply to the entire population.
The question I would have, and I’m no lawyer, is whether public/private is a distinction that would pass muster.
There is no constitutional issue unless the law actually doesn’t apply to the entire population. So far the only reason we have to think it doesn’t is that rwoods ‘guesses’ it.
| 28 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:46:24pm |
re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist
Why, pray tell, would you guess that?
And isn’t it cute that you’re worried about the Constitutionality of something you made up?
(Also, let’s be honest, there’s no big sudden glut of cases of molestation against the schools, at least not that I’m aware of.)
29 |
Tiny alien kittens are watching you Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:46:51pm |
OMFG!
The proposed change to the law would put “all Church institutions, including your parish, at risk,” says the letter, which was signed by Connecticut’s three Roman Catholic bishops.
How much more blatantly could they telegraph that they are worried about more child sexual abuse lawsuits?
“Don’t support this because otherwise we might get sued out of existence, including your Parish, you might show up to church some Sunday and see a big closed for bankruptcy sign across the doors!”
Uhh…if that is what happens then it probably should, just my own opinion mind you.
| 30 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:47:24pm |
re: #9 rwoods
Does this legislation apply to public and private institutions - or just the Catholic Church?
I’m guessing it exempts public school teachers - otherwise the unions would be yelling from the rooftops.
Don’t see how it passes constitutional muster without applying equally
Read the piece of legislation, let us know what it actually says, and in the mean time don’t shoot your mouth of at partisan targets.
| 31 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:47:44pm |
re: #21 Stonemason
and now that I have read it, it seems to me that the statute on criminal prosecution remains at 18+30 for many cases except those most heinous.
| 32 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:47:59pm |
| 33 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:48:09pm |
re: #28 EmmmieG
(Also, let’s be honest, there’s no big sudden glut of cases of molestation against the schools, at least not that I’m aware of.)
Well, these are UNION people we are talking about. Obviously, they rape kids, eat babies, and punch grandmothers.
///
34 |
Donna Ballard Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:48:49pm |
Now, this is a hot topic if I’ve ever seen one!
| 35 |
jaerik Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:48:50pm |
I’ve always been surprised that uber-patriots skeptical of all outside influence are so okay with quasi-national religious institutions that believe themselves immune from earthly law.
| 36 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:48:53pm |
re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist
There is no constitutional issue unless the law actually doesn’t apply to the entire population. So far the only reason we have to think it doesn’t is that rwoods ‘guesses’ it.
Exactly! Now that we have a link to the bill, we can all see that it’s generic and doesn’t appear to be directed at the church.
| 37 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:49:12pm |
re: #28 EmmmieG
(Also, let’s be honest, there’s no big sudden glut of cases of molestation against the schools, at least not that I’m aware of.)
However, there’s someone on every single one of these threads to insist that it happens all the time, and the unions protect their people.
This doesn’t get followed up with links or cases, naturally.
38 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:50:46pm |
Clearly, a degree in theology is no protection against stupidity.
| 39 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:51:07pm |
re: #9 rwoods
Does this legislation apply to public and private institutions - or just the Catholic Church?
I’m guessing it exempts public school teachers - otherwise the unions would be yelling from the rooftops.
Don’t see how it passes constitutional muster without applying equally
Downdinging you for the flaming strawmen and absurd speculation.
40 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:51:37pm |
There should be no statute of limitations for any crime of violence beyond a simple brawl. Assault with intent, rape, underage sex crimes, forcible sex crimes, robbery you name it.
Someone shoplifted? Fine a seven year statute will do.
A cop or priest or teacher abuses their position for sex with the underage? Capitol crime.
| 41 |
Donna Ballard Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:52:29pm |
re: #38 researchok
Clearly, a degree in theology is no protection against stupidity.
Just because you go to theology school doesn’t meant you learn morals, obviously!
42 |
keloyd Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:52:37pm |
re: #11 steve_davis
I came in here to make a similar unpopular point. I know of an elderly father of a friend who was a victim of a scam. He was about 70 and could not afford more than a public defender when 2 men in their 30s, with a drug habit, approached him. If I remember the story right, they and this man’s son were all boy scouts and the dad was a troop leader 20+ years ago. They told him to hand over some enormous sum of cash or they would go to the cops and say he molested them years and years ago. He refused and they pressed charges. His incompetent lawyer, and our system’s loose treatment of “proof beyond a reasonable doubt” meant he copped a plea and spent 5 years in prison as an old man (and innocent as far as any of us can tell.)
Statutes of limitations are there for a reason. Victims of any crime ought to make a case beyond a reasonable doubt, and the all defendants deserve a trial where the case must be proven. It’s easy nowadays with dna testing and psychologists.
in decades past, rape (of women) was notorious to prove because many states required too much proof. Now the pendulum occasionally swings too far the other way, imho.
| 44 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:53:20pm |
I understand that there is a part of the Catholic Church that is all about power and money, I get that, but c’mon, it’s a church for…uhhh…Christs sake, wouldn’t a better reaction from Church leaders be:
“It is about time we protect the children”
Instead we see:
“Don’t take our money.”
| 45 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:53:59pm |
re: #11 steve_davis
I have to agree with the church on this one. My dad’s a retired Anglican priest. I can’t imagine what it would be like for either him or a diocese to have to fight someone who decides to bring charges over something that allegedly happened in 1960. As horrible as child abuse is, the witch-hunts of the 1980’s should certainly be a cautionary tale of what can happen in an area where there’s generally no evidence except for people’s testimony.
Good point. The 80’s were a travesty.
Remember the McMartin and Spokane debacles.
| 46 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:54:24pm |
re: #40 Rightwingconspirator
Downdinging you because that’s somewhat extrajudicial, I don’t think death is the penalty for child abuse anywhere in the US, as much as some think it might be appropriate.
47 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:54:37pm |
re: #42 keloyd
I was unable to discern a point in your ramble, other than it sucks when the justice system fails.
What does it have to do with the statue of limitations?
| 48 |
Donna Ballard Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:55:49pm |
re: #40 Rightwingconspirator
There should be no statute of limitations for any crime of violence beyond a simple brawl. Assault with intent, rape, underage sex crimes, forcible sex crimes, robbery you name it.
Someone shoplifted? Fine a seven year statute will do.
A cop or priest or teacher abuses their position for sex with the underage? Capitol crime.
Ooooh yeah you got that right! As far as I’m concerned you rape someone, anyone, you have to pay for that crime no matter when or where it happened.
49 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:55:52pm |
The Bishops are worried about the Church “institutions” being at risk.
Ugh x 1000.
WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS WHO HAVE BEEN HARMED ALREADY AND THOSE AT FUTURE RISK?
| 50 |
cineaste Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:56:15pm |
re: #42 keloyd
Statutes of limitations are there for a reason. Victims of any crime ought to make a case beyond a reasonable doubt, and the all defendants deserve a trial where the case must be proven. It’s easy nowadays with dna testing and psychologists.
in decades past, rape (of women) was notorious to prove because many states required too much proof. Now the pendulum occasionally swings too far the other way, imho.
Because defense attorneys are not always good at their jobs shouldn’t be a reason not to allow civil suits against abusers. It should be a reason to try to improve the defense attorney pool.
Think about it. If you were 7 years old when you were abused you might not be even fully understanding of the event until well past puberty which would put it beyond many statutes of limitation.
| 51 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:56:32pm |
re: #11 steve_davis
What if it’s someone bringing charges about something that actually happened in the ’60s?
Yeah, repressed memory stuff sucked, and yeah, there were travesties of justice. That doesn’t connect to “so we shouldn’t have statutes of limitations”. There have been plenty of false allegations that were in the present time, as well.
It’s totally besides the point whether or not there will be fraudulent allegations. There could be with or without this.
| 52 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:56:34pm |
re: #42 keloyd
If there were capital punishment for molesters, it would help cut down on the cases. Since molesters get light jail time, the way to go after them is through civil courts. Does this breed some fraud? Sure it does…everything humans do breeds some sort of fraud. Put ‘em away forever, one way or the other.
| 53 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:57:13pm |
re: #41 Dragon_Lady
Just because you go to theology school doesn’t meant you learn morals, obviously!
Actually, there is some indication that in some seminaries, it’s where you go to learn how to be secretly immoral.
| 54 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:57:52pm |
re: #41 Dragon_Lady
Just because you go to theology school doesn’t meant you learn morals, obviously!
Ain’t that the truth.
| 55 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:57:56pm |
re: #49 reine.de.tout
The Bishops are worried about the Church “institutions” being at risk.
Ugh x 1000.
WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS WHO HAVE BEEN HARMED ALREADY AND THOSE AT FUTURE RISK?
Semi-Tasteless joke following…
The ball is in the Church’s Court…
I mean the kids are in god’s hands…
Err umm… ah… I’ll just stop right there….
| 56 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:58:31pm |
re: #55 jamesfirecat
James.
Quit now.
It’s no laughing matter.
57 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:58:37pm |
58 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:58:59pm |
Not to worry folks, it seems the pedophile scandal is being orchestrated by Jews and Freemasons.
C’mon you people, quit killing his God!
| 59 |
cineaste Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:59:05pm |
re: #52 Stonemason
If there were capital punishment for molesters, it would help cut down on the cases. Since molesters get light jail time, the way to go after them is through civil courts. Does this breed some fraud? Sure it does…everything humans do breeds some sort of fraud. Put ‘em away forever, one way or the other.
Capital punishment has never been shown to be a significant deterrent to any crime.
However if there were significant sanctions against bringing frivolous or unfounded law suits it would cut down on the threat of civil action as a form of fraud.
61 |
Kragar Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:59:17pm |
There are times I think that organized religions do have a place in society, and then there are times when I read things like this and realize how full of shit they really are.
| 62 |
DoubleBarrellBunnyAnger Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:59:29pm |
Somebody think of the children child molesters!!!1!!one!!!
| 63 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:59:53pm |
| 64 |
Kragar Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:59:57pm |
re: #59 cineaste
Capital punishment has never been shown to be a significant deterrent to any crime.
However if there were significant sanctions against bringing frivolous or unfounded law suits it would cut down on the threat of civil action as a form of fraud.
Sure cuts down on recidivism though.
| 65 |
Donna Ballard Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:00:00pm |
re: #46 Thanos
Downdinging you because that’s somewhat extrajudicial, I don’t think death is the penalty for child abuse anywhere in the US, as much as some think it might be appropriate.
Thanos, I don’t think he meant the death penalty, I think he meant the life in prison type capitol crime. Downdinging for that comment was a bit harsh don’t you think? Many states, including here in CA, are not following through with the death penalty anyways so I don’t think its likely to be applied anyways.
| 66 |
Shazam Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:00:31pm |
And a special wag of my finger to Connecticut for having a statute of limitations on child sex abuse in the first place.
| 67 |
cineaste Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:00:51pm |
I love that the Catholic Church has the gall to cast themselves as the victim here. They don’t even deny the priests did these horrible things to children. They just complain that the evil media (and sometimes Jews) are out to get them for… um… doing exactly what they did?
68 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:01:52pm |
re: #13 Fozzie Bear
I don’t think the unions are rushing to defend molestors, first of all, and secondly, the constitution says exactly diddly squat about statues of limitations. You can extend or contract the deadline all you want, it doesn’t even begin to become a constitutional issue.
I’m absolutely not defending the Church on this one… but isn’t changing the statue now an ex post facto action?
Paging the Lizard Lawyer crew…
Also, my deepest sympathies to our devout Catholic Lizards. This whole thing has to be an enormous test of faith for the flock who, IMO, deserve better than the morons who apparantly replaced sane people in Rome.
| 69 |
cineaste Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:01:58pm |
re: #65 Dragon_Lady
Thanos, I don’t think he meant the death penalty, I think he meant the life in prison type capitol crime. Downdinging for that comment was a bit harsh don’t you think? Many states, including here in CA, are not following through with the death penalty anyways so I don’t think its likely to be applied anyways.
I hate this line of reasoning. Let’s convict someone and sentence them to be killed by the state but let’s just not actually kill them. WTH?
| 70 |
keloyd Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:02:35pm |
Obdicut -
My point is evidence weakens over time. A man can’t defend himself against sex charges 20 years old, and rules of evidence are very scanty when thorough church rcords are absent. That’s the whole point of statutes of limitations. We want to avoid causing injustice in the effort to fight injustice. Some common sense time limits are one of many tools to help innocent men from being victims of some John-Edwards-type laywer who bleats “will someone think of the children!?” and blackmails innocent people.
71 |
prairiefire Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:02:40pm |
A bit off topic. Richard Dawkins and Hitch want to arrest the Pope in September:heraldsun.com.au
| 72 |
Shazam Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:03:01pm |
Bonus question: who said this?
“There are 13 year old adolescents who are under age and who are perfectly in agreement with, and what’s more wanting it, and if you are careless they will even provoke you.”
If you guessed Bernando Álvarez, the Bishop of Tenerife, you’re correct!
| 73 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:03:17pm |
re: #58 Jeff In Ohio
Not to worry folks, it seems the pedophile scandal is being orchestrated by Jews and Freemasons.
C’mon you people, quit killing his God!
Wow. Sanity in the rear view mirror.
| 74 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:03:23pm |
re: #65 Dragon_Lady
No, I don’t think it’s harsh to downding for a disagreement, I upding when I agree, I downding when I disagree. It’s really nothing personally, and they don’t need you all full of concern to jump in and defend them.
| 75 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:04:00pm |
re: #57 windsagio
Ahh yes, revenge killings.
Good times!
No, not revenge killings. Not at all. Removing a parsite from the host. There are studies that show pedophila to be an disease.
psychosexual disorder in which there is a preference for sexual activity with prepubertal children.
and as the link attests, it is accepted as such. A diesease that can be treated, well, treat it, lock up burgulars, fighters, even second degree murderers (crime of passion), but child molesters can not be cured of the disease, from what I have read.
| 76 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:04:18pm |
re: #46 Thanos
Well fair enough. I had not meant for extrajudicial, I meant it should be an option for the jury. However-folks I do not want to turn this thread into a death penalty debate. I’ll walk back my point if I may… to life without parole. I withdraw my capitol punishment point.
| 77 |
mj Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:04:30pm |
‘Criticism against Church a Zionist attack’
Who is to blame for the sexual abuse affairs in the Catholic Church? The Jews, at least according to an Italian bishop, which suggested that Jews were behind the current criticism of the Church’s record on tackling clerical sex abuse, British newspaper The Guardian reported Sunday….
| 78 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:05:02pm |
re: #71 prairiefire
A bit off topic. Richard Dawkins and Hitch want to arrest the Pope in September:[Link: www.heraldsun.com.au…]
Umm.. didn’t Charles already debunk that, or at least make it clear that Dawkins didn’t so much want to actually see the Pope get arrested as keep him out of England?
| 79 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:05:34pm |
re: #70 keloyd
If evidence weakens over time, then it’s harder to get a conviction.
That’s the whole point of statutes of limitations
It’s really not. It is also because we recognize that ruining a person’s life for a crime they committed a long time ago can be considered to be unfair and pointless It raises questions of rehabilitation, punishment, and recidivism.
With a crime like child abuse, with large amounts of recidivism, I see no reason to have any statute of limitations. I do think that proving something that happened so long ago is difficult— and so do judges and juries.
You cannot keep holding up one anecdotal case as an example. It proves nothing at all.
| 80 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:05:54pm |
re: #66 nonsense
re: #17 Stonemason
And I looked deeper again, It does apply to criminal prosecutions, but that doesn’t make news, only the civil aspect of it does, when the sickening abusers and apologists for the abusers cry foul at being called to task for abusing children.
Sorry for the above sentance.
see that link, many states have a statute of limitations.
| 81 |
Donna Ballard Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:06:02pm |
re: #69 cineaste
I hate this line of reasoning. Let’s convict someone and sentence them to be killed by the state but let’s just not actually kill them. WTH?
I know what you mean and its unfortunate, but it’s happening. I happen to think there are many sick individuals who deserve to be executed for their heinous crimes but the courts are not agreeing with the punishments set down by the juries that are trying the cases.
| 82 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:06:19pm |
re: #74 Thanos
Lets talk about that death penalty in some other thread. And I have no problem with the ding. It’s justified for disagreement of a certain strength.
| 83 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:06:34pm |
re: #76 Rightwingconspirator
Well fair enough. I had not meant for extrajudicial, I meant it should be an option for the jury. However-folks I do not want to turn this thread into a death penalty debate. I’ll walk back my point if I may… to life without parole. I withdraw my capitol punishment point.
Good point, and I agree this is all about child abuse, and the new law.
| 84 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:06:41pm |
re: #68 ~Fianna
I’m absolutely not defending the Church on this one… but isn’t changing the statue now an ex post facto action?
Paging the Lizard Lawyer crew…
Also, my deepest sympathies to our devout Catholic Lizards. This whole thing has to be an enormous test of faith for the flock who, IMO, deserve better than the morons who apparantly replaced sane people in Rome.
No, because if that were true, it would illegal to ever change the limitation for any case. Remember, it is a limit to prosecution relative to the date of the crime we are talking about; the illegality of molesting children has not changed in this time.
I.e., what you are describing would be an issue if molesting children were legal at the time, but I think its safe to assume that such behaviour has definitely been a crime everywhere in the US for quite some time.
85 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:06:50pm |
re: #58 Jeff In Ohio
Not to worry folks, it seems the pedophile scandal is being orchestrated by Jews and Freemasons.
C’mon you people, quit killing his God!
Do you realize how old and crazy you have to be in order to be a “retired” bishop? This guy is 81. He speaks for no one but the fading voices in his head.
| 86 |
Shazam Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:07:19pm |
re: #80 Stonemason
And it’s wrong in all of them, but this article brought Connecticut to the limelight. It’s good that they’re trying to do away with them, but it’s sick that any state has it in the fist place.
| 87 |
keloyd Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:07:46pm |
re: #52 Stonemason
If there were capital punishment for molesters, it would help cut down on the cases. Since molesters get light jail time, the way to go after them is through civil courts. Does this breed some fraud? Sure it does…everything humans do breeds some sort of fraud. Put ‘em away forever, one way or the other.
I don’t know, even in Texas, current penalties for rape (of adult women) never carry the death penalty to my knowledge. I would be ok with it, but don’t think our legal precedents would let us go that far. OTOH, if a parent caught the man in the act and killed the rapist, and was later charged wtih murder, that makes an excellent case for jury nullification. If nullification was good enough for William Penn and the Quakers, it’s good enough for me, civil rights era racist abuses notwithstanding.
| 88 |
Donna Ballard Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:07:47pm |
re: #74 Thanos
No, I don’t think it’s harsh to downding for a disagreement, I upding when I agree, I downding when I disagree. It’s really nothing personally, and they don’t need you all full of concern to jump in and defend them.
Okay, I can agree with your reasoning.
| 89 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:07:47pm |
re: #75 Stonemason
What you are advocating for is very close to advocating for executing all pedophiles regardless of their actual actions. In fact, I cannot see a way your logic does not lead to that.
| 91 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:08:35pm |
re: #70 keloyd
Obdicut -
My point is evidence weakens over time. A man can’t defend himself against sex charges 20 years old, and rules of evidence are very scanty when thorough church rcords are absent. That’s the whole point of statutes of limitations. We want to avoid causing injustice in the effort to fight injustice. Some common sense time limits are one of many tools to help innocent men from being victims of some John-Edwards-type laywer who bleats “will someone think of the children!?” and blackmails innocent people.
Obdi’s point is important.
He isn’t demanding a particular verdict- he’s an advocate for victims having their day in court.
When a victim confronts his or her accuser, that’s a victory in itself. Even if the perpetrator walks, he or she has been shamed.
Perpetrators don’t get a pass. They may not be convicted, but they don’t get a pass.
| 92 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:09:27pm |
re: #85 Decatur Deb
Do you realize how old and crazy you have to be in order to be a “retired” bishop? This guy is 81. He speaks for no one but the fading voices in his head.
Line of the week.
| 93 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:10:02pm |
re: #75 Stonemason
No, not revenge killings. Not at all. Removing a parsite from the host. There are studies that show pedophila to be an disease.
psychosexual disorder in which there is a preference for sexual activity with prepubertal children.and as the link attests, it is accepted as such. A diesease that can be treated, well, treat it, lock up burgulars, fighters, even second degree murderers (crime of passion), but child molesters can not be cured of the disease, from what I have read.
I’ve read that in males chemical castration can have good results as long as they keep taking their meds, less testosterone in the system= less desire for sex= less molesting children for sex.
I don’t want to get up and say “won’t somebody think of the child molesters” but these are people two, people whose brains have been wired up wrong, and in a way some of them already doubtlessly are already suffering more than enough just from the knowledge that they know with every fiber of their being that what they want from the bottom of their hearts is wrong in every sense of the word?
In closing, it seems harsh to kill these people for something that they were born with and I’d prefer a system where people can come out to society and announce their desires before they’ve acted upon them leading to them getting treatment and help controlling themselves so they can live as productive members of society, rather than being forced to try and hold them down to the point that they end up acting upon them….
Granted its easy for me to say all of the above as a 21 year old catnip smoking liberal who was never, and hasn’t known anyone who has been abused in such a way….
| 94 |
keloyd Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:10:05pm |
re: #58 Jeff In Ohio
Not to worry folks, it seems the pedophile scandal is being orchestrated by Jews and Freemasons.
C’mon you people, quit killing his God!
That bishop looks young and fit for 81, what’s his secret? And does it come with being able to play the fiddle really well?
| 95 |
Tiny alien kittens are watching you Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:10:15pm |
re: #9 rwoods
First post and -10 karma, ohh thats not good. Then again maybe you shouldn’t throw out supposition at random off of the top of your head and then attack it as if it were a fact.
Unions and teachers might be exempt? oh really? How? why? You obviously know absolutely nothing about the law if you think that the statute of limitations can retroactively retracted but only for certain non-protected classes of crimes.
How do you suppose that would withstand any challenge in the courts? Nevermind, you don’t think, you just do whatever you can to cast the “other side” in a bad light and hope maybe that some people might believe it.
You need to step up to the plate a bit if your going to last here.
| 96 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:10:27pm |
re: #63 Rightwingconspirator
re: #41 Dragon_Lady
Hello Ladies!The church has always put its interests above the faithful. This is the central sin of the church itself. When that realization truly hits the population, well I would expect membership to plummet.
Many Catholics, including myself, will always be Catholic. There will be membership loss, but perhaps not a membership plummet.
What’s going to happen is people will speak through their pocketbooks, and collections will be severely reduced.
What that will do is harm the good works actually done by honest Catholic PEOPLE, it will harm those parishes that have good, honest, ethical priests, while the Church leadership tries to protect the criminals.
It’s so completely and stunningly backwards from how it
should
be, and the church is failing to protect those who most need protection. I’m aghast.
| 97 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:10:45pm |
re: #65 Dragon_Lady
Thanos, I don’t think he meant the death penalty, I think he meant the life in prison type capitol crime. Downdinging for that comment was a bit harsh don’t you think? Many states, including here in CA, are not following through with the death penalty anyways so I don’t think its likely to be applied anyways.
We may be slow, but we have managed to execute six people in the last decade. Give us time!
| 98 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:11:05pm |
re: #66 nonsense
And a special wag of my finger to Connecticut for having a statute of limitations on child sex abuse in the first place.
Sex crimes have always had ‘em.
| 99 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:11:45pm |
re: #89 Obdicut
What you are advocating for is very close to advocating for executing all pedophiles regardless of their actual actions. In fact, I cannot see a way your logic does not lead to that.
nope, not saying that. Just Pedophiles convicted of molesting a child. There is a difference. A pedophile that fights his/her disease through treatment/drugs, or any self directed type of care, and who does not harm a child has every right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, within the stated laws of the state, as any of us do.
| 100 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:11:51pm |
The really bad thing goes continually back to the church — as an institution what they are doing is somewhat indefensible. They have for centuries held themselves above the law when it comes to these cases. It’s a case of persistent overweening theocracy, and they are always trying to proffer a Supernatural get out of jail free card when these cases come up.
| 101 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:11:52pm |
re: #91 researchok
Yes, in fact, I was just thinking to myself how to put that.
It is enormously important for a victim to be able to speak about what they’ve experienced. Enormously important. Whether or not they get actual justice, or even want to go through with a trial, simply by having the courage to start the action, many are able to make positive changes in their life previously unavailable to them.
Also, molesters do have a high rate of recidivism, and often move to different places (or are moved, by the Catholic Church) in order to escape their past and have new opportunities for molestation. This provides another way to expose them after they have moved on, and help their new communities get a look at what they were like.
| 103 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:12:32pm |
re: #77 mj
‘Criticism against Church a Zionist attack’
Who is to blame for the sexual abuse affairs in the Catholic Church? The Jews, at least according to an Italian bishop, which suggested that Jews were behind the current criticism of the Church’s record on tackling clerical sex abuse, British newspaper The Guardian reported Sunday…
[Link: www.ynetnews.com…]
Wait, but I thought that attacking the Church was like anti-Semitism…
Dang, this is confusing.
| 104 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:13:26pm |
re: #85 Decatur Deb
Do you realize how old and crazy you have to be in order to be a “retired” bishop? This guy is 81. He speaks for no one but the fading voices in his head.
You’re just jealous because the voices talk to him.
| 105 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:13:32pm |
re: #84 Fozzie Bear
No, because if that were true, it would illegal to ever change the limitation for any case. Remember, it is a limit to prosecution relative to the date of the crime we are talking about; the illegality of molesting children has not changed in this time.
I.e., what you are describing would be an issue if molesting children were legal at the time, but I think its safe to assume that such behaviour has definitely been a crime everywhere in the US for quite some time.
That’s an interesting point. I know that it’s ex post facto to significantly change the punishment (ie, if we made possession of marijuana a capital offense today, we couldn’t give the death penalty to people who were arrested yesterday).
I think that I’m leaning towards being opposed to changing this law situationally. I think these guys deserve a kick in the head, but it’s such a speculative thing and there’s no evidence other than someone’s word and emotions are just too high.
I’m not sure that any priest could get a fair trial in this climate, never mind someone who was trying to defend himself against something that happened 40 years ago.
| 106 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:14:24pm |
re: #93 jamesfirecat
I’ve got no problem with a person fighting his/her disease, pubically or privately, as long as that person does not harm children.
So we are clear, the desire to ‘be with’ a child is not the same as raping a child, and I in no way advocate the execution of those who have not committed any crimes, nor have any of my posts insinuated that.
| 107 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:14:34pm |
re: #9 rwoods
Does this legislation apply to public and private institutions - or just the Catholic Church?
I’m guessing it exempts public school teachers - otherwise the unions would be yelling from the rooftops.
Don’t see how it passes constitutional muster without applying equally
Your first comment is this?
If the Catholic Church had openly taken care of this problem, and taken care of the victims rather than the perpetrators, and not tried to cover up and protect the criminal activity, maybe it would not have come to this.
| 108 |
prairiefire Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:14:45pm |
re: #78 jamesfirecat
Look how polite you are! Let me scratch your ears.
| 109 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:14:48pm |
re: #87 keloyd
I don’t know, even in Texas, current penalties for rape (of adult women) never carry the death penalty to my knowledge. I would be ok with it, but don’t think our legal precedents would let us go that far. OTOH, if a parent caught the man in the act and killed the rapist, and was later charged wtih murder, that makes an excellent case for jury nullification. If nullification was good enough for William Penn and the Quakers, it’s good enough for me, civil rights era racist abuses notwithstanding.
Wouldn’t even be jury nullification. Lethal force to prevent harm or to interrupt a crime that leads to bodily harm is absolutely legal and always has been.
| 110 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:14:54pm |
re: #91 researchok
Obdi’s point is important.
He isn’t demanding a particular verdict- he’s an advocate for victims having their day in court.
When a victim confronts his or her accuser, that’s a victory in itself. Even if the perpetrator walks, he or she has been shamed.
Perpetrators don’t get a pass. They may not be convicted, but they don’t get a pass.
As unpopular a point as this may be, courts don’t exist for the benefit of past victims. They exist for the benefit of those who may in the future avoid becoming victims through the actions of the courts today.
I think this is a somewhat important distinction because the point of criminal court proceedings is to establish the veracity of specific allegations, not to create a spectacle in pursuit of some kind of catharsis. That comes secondarily.
The “shaming” of the accused is NOT what we should be trying to do. We should be shaming the *convicted*.
| 111 |
kirkspencer Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:16:26pm |
#21 Stonemason was kind enough to link the bill.
Here’s the bishop’s letter for those wanting all the facts.
The line in the letter that particularly caught my eye was:
This unfairness is greater because Catholic institutions have largely resolved their problem of childhood sexual abuse through zero tolerance practices implemented in 1992 and excellent safe environment programs beginning in 2002.
| 112 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:17:01pm |
I want to admit right here I have a very angry personal interest in this topic. Not an issue with the church, but a kid we fostered as a teenager went on to get married, have kids, and come home one horrible day to her husband raping the toddler girl. It broke my heart. We love that young woman and her kids.
I see a direct parallel between the priesthood and father hood. The violation of trust, coupled with the heinous nature of the act is just beyond all comprehension. Those predators need to be stopped cold from attempting to repeat the crime. Anyone who hides them or knowingly helps is just a co conspirator. As I would accuse the Pope himself of at this point, if the reports I read are accurate. Big if there. If removing the statute will help, perfect. Fine with me.
| 113 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:17:10pm |
Fianna & FozzieL Thanks for the discussion and clarification on ex post facto, that was appreciated.
| 114 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:17:11pm |
re: #99 Stonemason
nope, not saying that. Just Pedophiles convicted of molesting a child. There is a difference. A pedophile that fights his/her disease through treatment/drugs, or any self directed type of care, and who does not harm a child has every right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, within the stated laws of the state, as any of us do.
Do you know how easy it is for a person to get the necessary drugs /treatment for that kind of thing before they’ve committed a crime at the moment?
(I don’t but I doubt its easy…)
115 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:17:25pm |
This is the current Connecticut statute:
Conn. Gen. Stat. §52-577d:
LIMITATION OF ACTION FOR DAMAGES TO MINOR CAUSED BY SEXUAL ABUSE, EXPLOITATION OR ASSAULT.
Notwithstanding the provisions of section 52-577, no action to recover damages for personal injury to a minor, including emotional distress, caused by sexual abuse, sexual exploitation or sexual assault may be brought by such person later than thirty (30) years from the date such person attains the age of majority (18).
This applies to civil cases only. Other states here.
| 116 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:17:35pm |
117 |
Olsonist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:18:47pm |
When I bought a house in CA, there is a Megans Law disclosure form. This was news to me so I started looking up my new neighborhood, my old neighborhood, …. My old neighborhood, the Berkeley flats, was littered with registered sex offenders every other block. I forwarded it to my old landlord and single mother of a wonderful daughter and made sure she knew.
| 118 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:19:31pm |
re: #101 Obdicut
Yes, in fact, I was just thinking to myself how to put that.
It is enormously important for a victim to be able to speak about what they’ve experienced. Enormously important. Whether or not they get actual justice, or even want to go through with a trial, simply by having the courage to start the action, many are able to make positive changes in their life previously unavailable to them.
Also, molesters do have a high rate of recidivism, and often move to different places (or are moved, by the Catholic Church) in order to escape their past and have new opportunities for molestation. This provides another way to expose them after they have moved on, and help their new communities get a look at what they were like.
Agreed on all points.
In fact, the Church would do well to welcome the legislation.
They have ever right to demand high standards of proof (and that alone would weed out a lot of frivolous charges) and fair proceedings. If they can be perceived to be supporting victims (and the Church does that in so many areas) they will have bolstered their credibility.
The church has the right andobligation to defend themselves from false accusations. They also have the obligation to defend the victims of abuse.
It is not the noble doctrines of the church that are flawed. It is the lack of application of those doctrines that are have caused the problem.
A church that struggles with abuse in it’s ranks will produce fewer Mother Teresas. It is fair to say we need the church to produce more mother Teresas.
| 119 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:19:34pm |
re: #99 Stonemason
But he can’t be cured, which is what you stated as the grounds for killing them or locking them up forever.
| 120 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:20:40pm |
re: #111 kirkspencer
The line in the letter that particularly caught my eye was:
This unfairness is greater because Catholic institutions have largely resolved their problem of childhood sexual abuse through zero tolerance practices implemented in 1992 and excellent safe environment programs beginning in 2002.
The effectiveness will vary from diocese to diocese. Some bishops caught the message, others are more likely still in denial.
| 121 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:20:41pm |
re: #114 jamesfirecat
Do you know how easy it is for a person to get the necessary drugs /treatment for that kind of thing before they’ve committed a crime at the moment?
(I don’t but I doubt its easy…)
yes, it is actually easy. There are mental health clinics in every county, in every state that help people on a sliding scale. Doctor patient privalidge extends to a patient who has not committed a crime, or does not plan on committing a crime (I am not a lawyer, so not 100% on this), so a psych(iatrist) or (ologist) could prescribe/treat anyone.
Mental health is imprtant, and there are avenues for those who are troubled.
| 122 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:21:23pm |
re: #111 kirkspencer
#21 Stonemason was kind enough to link the bill.
Here’s the bishop’s letter for those wanting all the facts.
The line in the letter that particularly caught my eye was:
At the risk of making light of several people’s horrible suffering here is my response to that line from the letter.
Well first of all I’d like to apologize for the behaviour of certain of my colleagues you may have seen earlier, but they are from broken homes, circus families and so on and they are in no way representative of the new modern improved British Navy. They are a small vociferous minority; and may I take this opportunity of emphasizing that there is no cannibalism in the British Navy. Absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there is a certain amount, more than we are prepared to admit, but all new ratings are warned that if they wake up in the morning and find toothmarks at all anywhere on their bodies, they’re to tell me immediately so that I can immediately take every measure to hush the whole thing up. And, finally, necrophilia is right ou
| 123 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:21:37pm |
re: #111 kirkspencer
#21 Stonemason was kind enough to link the bill.
Here’s the bishop’s letter for those wanting all the facts.
The line in the letter that particularly caught my eye was:
This unfairness is greater because Catholic institutions have largely resolved their problem of childhood sexual abuse through zero tolerance practices implemented in 1992 and excellent safe environment programs beginning in 2002.
Huh.
Here’s one thing our diocese did.
If you are an adult (including the priests but also including parents of kids in the parish school) wanting to volunteer for activities that involve working with the kids, you must, at your own expense, undergo a thorough background check and provide it to the diocese.
Now, this is not a bad policy and I have no problem with it just on the face of it.
My only problem is that the actions we’re trying to protect our kids from have not been perpetrated by parents.
Basically ended my school volunteer efforts.
| 124 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:21:40pm |
| 125 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:21:45pm |
re: #117 Olsonist
When I bought a house in CA, there is a Megans Law disclosure form. This was news to me so I started looking up my new neighborhood, my old neighborhood, … My old neighborhood, the Berkeley flats, was littered with registered sex offenders every other block. I forwarded it to my old landlord and single mother of a wonderful daughter and made sure she knew.
Some of those people are likely not the monsters that they’re lumped in with, you know.
There are a fair number of people who were 18 or 19 and got caught having sex with their 16 or 17 year old girlfriend.
Some of them are going to be kids who text topless photos of themselves to their friends.
I really dislike Meghan’s laws.
| 126 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:23:18pm |
re: #118 researchok
Had to fave that one, it was good
| 127 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:23:22pm |
re: #118 researchok
I agree with everything other than the utility of Mother Theresas— I just want the Catholic church to produce more C.S. Lewis-es, more Ignatius of Loyolas, and more Reines.
128 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:23:24pm |
re: #125 ~Fianna
I really love the intent. I truly dislike the implementation.
| 129 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:23:28pm |
re: #123 reine.de.tout
Huh.
Here’s one thing our diocese did.
If you are an adult (including the priests but also including parents of kids in the parish school) wanting to volunteer for activities that involve working with the kids, you must, at your own expense, undergo a thorough background check and provide it to the diocese.Now, this is not a bad policy and I have no problem with it just on the face of it.
My only problem is that the actions we’re trying to protect our kids from have not been perpetrated by parents.
Basically ended my school volunteer efforts.
Similar rules in Mobile archdiocese, but the church pays for the checks.
| 130 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:23:31pm |
re: #85 Decatur Deb
Do you realize how old and crazy you have to be in order to be a “retired” bishop? This guy is 81. He speaks for no one but the fading voices in his head.
Wouldn’t know, I only know about the inner workings from what I read on the Internets.
Is that the reason Bishops retire? Maybe the Church can have an island where all the collared kid fuckers and crazy apeshit halfwits can live out their pathetic lives.
With food service run by Kissinger and Cheney.
I’m just freewheeling here, but I’ll stop as I’m about to get ugly.
| 131 |
kirkspencer Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:23:46pm |
re: #120 Decatur Deb
Yes. I should have been more clear. That line flabbergasted me. They’re saying a zero tolerance program went into effect in 1992. That would imply that any priests discovered having sex with minors should be immediately removed. I’m just a wee bit doubtful that the implication matches the reality.
| 132 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:24:22pm |
re: #119 Obdicut
But he can’t be cured, which is what you stated as the grounds for killing them or locking them up forever.
::sigh::
Convicted, again, I state for clarity, convicted of molesting a child.
| 133 |
Tiny alien kittens are watching you Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:24:26pm |
| 134 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:24:54pm |
re: #127 Obdicut
I agree with everything other than the utility of Mother Theresas— I just want the Catholic church to produce more C.S. Lewis-es, more Ignatius of Loyolas, and more Reines.
And more schools, sans nuns with rulers.
(yes, that was a cheap shout out for vouchers)
| 135 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:24:56pm |
re: #117 Olsonist
When I bought a house in CA, there is a Megans Law disclosure form. This was news to me so I started looking up my new neighborhood, my old neighborhood, … My old neighborhood, the Berkeley flats, was littered with registered sex offenders every other block. I forwarded it to my old landlord and single mother of a wonderful daughter and made sure she knew.
Keep in mind that the legal definition of sex offender in many places is pretty flimsy. Many of the names on that list may be much more harmless than you might imagine given the label of “sex offender”.
I have a philosophical objection to certain applications of Megan’s Law, even as I simultaneously openly admit I would gleefully agree to burn the testicles off of rapists publicly using star wars laser technology. Just keep in mind that the intent of Megan’s Law hasn’t always been consistent with the application.
| 136 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:25:43pm |
re: #125 ~Fianna
Some of those people are likely not the monsters that they’re lumped in with, you know.
There are a fair number of people who were 18 or 19 and got caught having sex with their 16 or 17 year old girlfriend.
Some of them are going to be kids who text topless photos of themselves to their friends.
I really dislike Meghan’s laws.
It’s not a bad idea, but it tends to get awkwardly implemented. I’ve been told that some people on the list are also folks who were convicted of things that are no longer criminal, such as consensual sex with another man. I read one article with some very aggravated-sounding quotes from a nice old man who had never figured that a little fooling around in the Navy would cause him this much trouble.
| 137 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:25:53pm |
re: #125 ~Fianna
That needs fixing. I support the law for violent rapists, and real predators. Not foolish teens. I saw that silly story where an underage girl was charged with distributing child porn-her own bare chest sent out on her own phone. Under age sexting is all it was. Reminds me of the girls suspended from school for a midol pill as in “no tolerance” for drugs. As if puberty is not difficult enough.
| 138 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:25:55pm |
re: #121 Stonemason
yes, it is actually easy. There are mental health clinics in every county, in every state that help people on a sliding scale. Doctor patient privalidge extends to a patient who has not committed a crime, or does not plan on committing a crime (I am not a lawyer, so not 100% on this), so a psych(iatrist) or (ologist) could prescribe/treat anyone.
Mental health is imprtant, and there are avenues for those who are troubled.
Okay then I’m glad to hear that.
I’d just like to add that personally I think every insurance policy in the land should cover those kind of medications. If ever there was a time that society as a whole should be paying to help treat someone’s problem….
| 139 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:26:03pm |
re: #99 Stonemason
It is not within this country’s justice just to kill people because we’d rather not keep them forever in jail.
Beyond that, saying ‘oh they’re incurable, fuck ‘em’ isn’t something I can go so far with.
Let them get punishment and treatment according to their crime, and not confuse catharsis for justice.
| 140 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:26:12pm |
re: #127 Obdicut
I agree with everything other than the utility of Mother Theresas— I just want the Catholic church to produce more C.S. Lewis-es, more Ignatius of Loyolas, and more Reines.
aw, {Obdi}
You’re awfully sweet.
| 141 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:26:52pm |
re: #132 Stonemason
I understand that, dude. I’m pointing to a logical flaw in your argument.
If you are making the case that they should be executed because they can’t be cured, that state exists before they are convicted of anything. Nothing changes about that— which is your criteria for why it’s okay to execute them or lock them away forever— by actually perpetrating the action.
| 142 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:27:02pm |
re: #131 kirkspencer
Yes. I should have been more clear. That line flabbergasted me. They’re saying a zero tolerance program went into effect in 1992. That would imply that any priests discovered having sex with minors should be immediately removed. I’m just a wee bit doubtful that the implication matches the reality.
I think the rules you cite came from the US Council of Bishops. That is a group of equals talking to themselves. Some will adopt enthusiastically, others less so.
| 143 |
Olsonist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:27:45pm |
| 144 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:28:45pm |
re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Like 3 strikes-Needs work.
| 146 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:29:39pm |
re: #135 Fozzie Bear
Megans law, indeed the entire “sex offender” category had been abused by the state. Get caught peeing in public? that can lead to a charge of indecent exposure and possibly having to register as a sex offender. Kiss a girl and she decides to turn you in or the school does? Possible sexual harrassment and having to register. And the most egregious are the romeo/juliet ones which will ruin someone’s life.
They do serve a purpose, in some cases they are good and yes there are offenders. But just like the drug laws in this country they are abused.
| 147 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:29:47pm |
re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I really love the intent. I truly dislike the implementation.
Same here.
Although I guess I see it this way: if the person who commits a crime has paid the price and is capable of being a member of society, they should be released from prison and left alone to make their way in the world.
If they aren’t capable of being a productive member of society, they shouldn’t be out of prison in the first place.
The way that Meghan’s Law and other similar things are set up, it’s impossible for these people to do anything. In some places, it’s impossible for them to find a place to live. If they’re that bad, they should be in prison. If they’re not, that’s just unjust.
| 148 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:29:55pm |
re: #139 windsagio
re: #141 Obdicut
We are on opposite sides of the CP argument, I understand that.
I will not change my view, you will not change yours, and life will go on. For the sake of civility, I will state that my personal preference is for CP for child molesters but will settle for life in prison, or, fully supervised probation of some sort that keeps the convicted molestor away from children.
I do not want a CP debate, sorry about that.
| 149 |
Jeff In Ohio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:32:08pm |
re: #146 Dreggas
Megans law, indeed the entire “sex offender” category had been abused by the state. Get caught peeing in public? that can lead to a charge of indecent exposure and possibly having to register as a sex offender.
Lewd and lascivious behavior. Ask me how I know.
No don’t.
| 150 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:32:30pm |
re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I really love the intent. I truly dislike the implementation.
Our last Neighborhood Assn meeting, representatives from the Sheriff’s office came to speak.
They have the same view you do.
For probably the same reasons, the teens caught having underage sex, or sexting or whatever, get classified with the real offenders, the ones we really want to watch out for.
| 151 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:32:35pm |
re: #148 Stonemason
re: #141 Obdicut
We are on opposite sides of the CP argument, I understand that.
I will not change my view, you will not change yours, and life will go on. For the sake of civility, I will state that my personal preference is for CP for child molesters but will settle for life in prison, or, fully supervised probation of some sort that keeps the convicted molestor away from children.I do not want a CP debate, sorry about that.
You’d make one tough gym instructor, drill sergeant or proctologist.
That’s all I have to say.
| 152 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:32:39pm |
re: #143 Olsonist
I see your point.re: #125 ~Fianna
Yes, but they do give a list of offenses and
LEWD OR LASCIVIOUS ACTS WITH CHILD UNDER 14 YEARS
PRIOR CODE-RAPE BY FORCE
ORAL COPULATION WITH FORCE, VIOLENCE, ETC.are not an 18 year old sleeping with his 17 year old sweetheart.
Sex offenses are sex offenses. I’m sure that statutory rape is on that list.
| 153 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:32:55pm |
re: #140 reine.de.tout
Well, your position on this is absolutely commendable, much more so than the church leaderships. Right now I feel the church is… well, I can’t really tell what the role of the Catholic church is for its parishioners, since the Church seems to feel that it’s rather the other way around, and that parishioners should be trying to help support the Church.
And with apologies to you, since I do not feel these two people are by any means good defenders of the Catholic church, but they were who showed up, here is the IQsquared debate with the proposal “The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world.”
Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry take the opposing side. John Onaiyekan and Ann Widdecombe support it.
| 154 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:33:04pm |
re: #148 Stonemason
Its not really about Capitol Punishment per se, but about the extension thereof.
Even if you in particular aren’t expressing it, the emotional force people have around the subject of molestation leads to some troubling things.
Not that it’s not horrifying, of course.
| 155 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:33:27pm |
| 156 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:33:36pm |
re: #148 Stonemason
No, you don’t actually understand my point, but never mind. It has nothing to do with the punishment, but your grounds for giving it.
| 157 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:34:00pm |
re: #150 reine.de.tout
Yep, and there were even reports of schools turning in little kids under sex offender laws for stupid shit.
| 158 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:34:18pm |
re: #153 Obdicut
Oh, and that’s part 1 of 13. Click on the link and follow for more, since I doubt Charles wants me to post all 13 here.
| 159 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:35:27pm |
re: #153 Obdicut
Well, your position on this is absolutely commendable, much more so than the church leaderships. Right now I feel the church is… well, I can’t really tell what the role of the Catholic church is for its parishioners, since the Church seems to feel that it’s rather the other way around, and that parishioners should be trying to help support the Church.
And with apologies to you, since I do not feel these two people are by any means good defenders of the Catholic church, but they were who showed up, here is the IQsquared debate with the proposal “The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world.”
Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry take the opposing side. John Onaiyekan and Ann Widdecombe support it.
[Video]
On a similar track, what to do with growing number of public school offenders?
How ought we deal with the Teachers Unions on the matter?
| 161 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:36:03pm |
| 162 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:36:23pm |
re: #159 researchok
What are you talking about, dude?
| 163 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:37:20pm |
re: #159 researchok
On a similar track, what to do with growing number of public school offenders?
How ought we deal with the Teachers Unions on the matter?
Like you should deal with all unions—according to the terms of the contract you (the school authorities) signed.
164 |
Aceofwhat? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:37:29pm |
re: #147 ~Fianna
Same here.
Although I guess I see it this way: if the person who commits a crime has paid the price and is capable of being a member of society, they should be released from prison and left alone to make their way in the world.
If they aren’t capable of being a productive member of society, they shouldn’t be out of prison in the first place.
The way that Meghan’s Law and other similar things are set up, it’s impossible for these people to do anything. In some places, it’s impossible for them to find a place to live. If they’re that bad, they should be in prison. If they’re not, that’s just unjust.
eh. i was with you up until this point. recidivism matters. felons lose their right to gun ownership…because of past actions. i’m ok with actual sex offenders (i.e. not horny teenagers) losing some privacy rights. too many statistics point to scary recidivism rates to act otherwise.
| 165 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:38:36pm |
re: #159 researchok
Downding for the flaming strawman distraction. This bill is generic.
| 166 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:39:59pm |
re: #164 Aceofwhat?
And in the recidivism many times the violence is accelerated. Tis a shame, really.
Or maybe I read too much John Sanford.
Anyway, hence, heads on pikes.
167 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:40:34pm |
The proposed change to the law would put “all Church institutions, including your parish, at risk,” says the letter,
WORLD EXCLUSIVE!
Just discovered in a dusty shoebox at the Kirel archives!
Dear Friends,
Please be aware that Governor Crittenden’s proposed crackdown on bank robbery, train ambushes, and bushwhacking presents a serious danger to my dear cousins, Frank and Jesse, and their continued ability to operate a lucrative business.
Please help us in our efforts to resist this tyrannical extension of government power.Thank you
Herkimer James, March 20 1881
| 168 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:41:10pm |
re: #162 Obdicut
What are you talking about, dude?
There’s been documented accounts of escalating abuse in the public school system (Clinton era administration issued the first study on that).
I believe we need to make the same demand of the teacher Unions as we do of the church.
| 169 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:42:10pm |
re: #168 researchok
Do you have any evidence that the teachers unions are doing the same kind of coverups the church is, thus requiring such a law?
| 170 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:42:25pm |
re: #168 researchok
There’s been documented accounts of escalating abuse in the public school system (Clinton era administration issued the first study on that).
I believe we need to make the same demand of the teacher Unions as we do of the church.
Link?
| 171 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:42:27pm |
| 172 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:42:37pm |
re: #165 Thanos
Downding for the flaming strawman distraction. This bill is generic.
Not fair- the teacher unions have been demanding separate standards for public school for years now.
| 173 |
Aceofwhat? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:42:51pm |
re: #166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
And in the recidivism many times the violence is accelerated. Tis a shame, really.
Or maybe I read too much John Sanford.
Anyway, hence, heads on pikes.
i’m for inactivating a different body part…
| 174 |
Tiny alien kittens are watching you Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:42:52pm |
re: #96 reine.de.tout
be, and the church is failing to protect those who most need protection. I’m aghast.
I feel sorry for Catholic Charities and all the tremendously good work that they do every day. Their funding is drying up, the Bishops are forcing them to leave anyplace with Gay marriage and same sex partner laws while their protection of pedophile priests has deeply hurt their donations.
I have dealt with Catholic charities several times in helping to place abused women and children, they do good work and they honestly care. They have to be more upset than anyone at the churches inability to deal honestly with this scandal.
How hard would it be for them to say; “From now on any report of abuse will be immediately reported to local law enforcement and until the complaint is resolved the priest in question will have no contact with minors whatsoever.”
There, done, everyone wins, yet instead they want to keep hiding the extant to which pedophiles have penetrated their ranks.
| 175 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:43:02pm |
re: #153 Obdicut
Well, your position on this is absolutely commendable, much more so than the church leaderships. Right now I feel the church is… well, I can’t really tell what the role of the Catholic church is for its parishioners, since the Church seems to feel that it’s rather the other way around, and that parishioners should be trying to help support the Church.
And with apologies to you, since I do not feel these two people are by any means good defenders of the Catholic church, but they were who showed up, here is the IQsquared debate with the proposal “The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world.”
Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry take the opposing side. John Onaiyekan and Ann Widdecombe support it.
[Video]
I saw it.
The priest they chose did a very poor job, IMO. He too, seemed to talk of the Church as an institution, not as the PEOPLE of the Church, and that’s a major fail, again, just IMO.
And of course, Hitchens, with that voice and that mastery of words, just always sounds great, even when I disagree with him.
The role of the Church at the local level for those of us with good, honest, ethical priests is what it’s always been. My hope is that this can be sustained through this major crisis of leadership.
| 176 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:43:12pm |
re: #168 researchok
There’s been documented accounts of escalating abuse in the public school system (Clinton era administration issued the first study on that).
I believe we need to make the same demand of the teacher Unions as we do of the church.
The analogy doesn’t hold. The Church is the priests’ employer, not his union. Start holding school administrators responsible for who they hire and how they manage them.
177 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:43:19pm |
re: #171 Shiplord Kirel
Sheesh! Can’t they find any communists or Rothschilds to blame this on?
//
ACORN!
| 178 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:43:38pm |
re: #168 researchok
Repeat: the bill is generic, we went over that upthread.
Why is the Knee jerk reaction to “church looks bad” to bring up the teacher’s union?
They will make a fair comparison when they get to a centuries long policy of hiding the abuse, transferring and hiding the transgressors, and ignoring all laws regarding child sex abuse. When they get to that point then you can fairly make that comparison.
179 |
Croc-Wearing Authoritarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:43:42pm |
re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist
Wait, but I thought that attacking the Church was like anti-Semitism…
Dang, this is confusing.
Anti-Semites want to co-opt the Holocaust for themselves. Why should the Juice get all the attention?
They want all the attention and sympathy of being victims, without any of the actual death and suffering.
| 180 |
Donna Ballard Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:44:10pm |
re: #150 reine.de.tout
Our last Neighborhood Assn meeting, representatives from the Sheriff’s office came to speak.
They have the same view you do.
For probably the same reasons, the teens caught having underage sex, or sexting or whatever, get classified with the real offenders, the ones we really want to watch out for.
Now I find that an absurd part of the statute! I also think that statuary rape is absurd if the girl is under age and the guy is barely of age and both were consenting! I wish the folk in the legislature would use their brains when concocting these blasted statutes! How many lives have been ruined due to immature thinking and acting on immature feelings? Thats the real crime in my opinion!
Now a Priest in the position of power who uses it to hurt a child? I call that a crime under the color of authority and should have a greater punishment for rape or molestation just like a cop who uses his badge to commit a crime!
| 181 |
Aceofwhat? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:44:28pm |
re: #168 researchok
There’s been documented accounts of escalating abuse in the public school system (Clinton era administration issued the first study on that).
I believe we need to make the same demand of the teacher Unions as we do of the church.
whether or not there is meat on this bone, I for one find it nothing but a distraction in this particular thread. in an Overnight thread? sure. run with it.
right now it just feels like “look at the birdie! look at the birdie!”
don’t know if that was your intention…i can only report the results…
| 182 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:44:29pm |
re: #164 Aceofwhat?
eh. i was with you up until this point. recidivism matters. felons lose their right to gun ownership…because of past actions. i’m ok with actual sex offenders (i.e. not horny teenagers) losing some privacy rights. too many statistics point to scary recidivism rates to act otherwise.
Releasing people from prison where their only option is to live under a bridge isn’t helping them become productive members of society.
If they’re at a risk of re-offending, we need to keep them in prison in the first place. Sentences for rape are WAY too short.
| 183 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:44:34pm |
OTYOT…
I am reading comments here… I am stunned by the breadth of knowledge here.
I ain’t Catholic, not a teacher, not in Law enforcement….
I learn so much here.
Please. Continue.
| 184 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:44:40pm |
re: #159 researchok
On a similar track, what to do with growing number of public school offenders?
How ought we deal with the Teachers Unions on the matter?
Can I have some links to prove that you didn’t just make that up?
Also for reference last time I checked, CU members aren’t immune to criminal charges the way Catholic Church bishops are….
| 185 |
kirkspencer Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:44:47pm |
re: #152 ~Fianna
Sex offenses are sex offenses. I’m sure that statutory rape is on that list.
Yes. Or at least in Georgia.
Georgia code 16-6-3 says that anyone having sex with someone 16 years of age or younger is committing statutory rape. Loophole is, it’s a misdemeanor if the “rapist” is not more than four years older than the “victim” and the victim is at least 14. But misdemeanor statutory rape will still get you enrolled as a sex offender.
| 186 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:45:09pm |
re: #159 researchok
On a similar track, what to do with growing number of public school offenders?
How ought we deal with the Teachers Unions on the matter?
It’s not the existence of offenders.
It’s that a major religious organization is conspiring to cover up for and protect the offenders, rather than the innocent young lives that should be protected.
If the Teacher’s Union does not employ the same tactic, then this has nothing to do with them.
| 187 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:46:19pm |
re: #172 researchok
Not fair- the teacher unions have been demanding separate standards for public school for years now.
This post is emblematic of the reflexive factionalism I seem to spend so much time on here complaining about.
Sex scandal in the church? “OMG THE TEACHER UNION IS EVIL AND COVERING FOR SEX OFFENDERS!”
| 188 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:46:38pm |
re: #173 Aceofwhat?
Sorry. Cut my dick/nuts off, I can still really hurt someone.
Many times… that is what it is about.
Sorry for the crass response, but, I wanted it to be sharp.
Not aimed at you, aimed at the idea of castration.
| 189 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:46:42pm |
re: #184 jamesfirecat
Can I have some links to prove that you didn’t just make that up?
Also for reference last time I checked, CU members aren’t immune to criminal charges the way Catholic Church bishops are…
Relook that. Bishops in the US are in no way immune. Due process has to be used, however.
| 190 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:47:02pm |
re: #180 Dragon_Lady
I forget who, but some blog was documenting the number of kids (teens and even children) who now show up in sex-offender databases for the stupidest things (ie the showing your wee-wee stuff) that used to get them in trouble but now make them out to be monsters. It’s sad.
| 191 |
Olsonist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:47:10pm |
Any cop who arrests and any DA who prosecutes statutory rape which is the law of the land deserves to be without employment.
| 192 |
Aceofwhat? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:47:10pm |
re: #182 ~Fianna
Releasing people from prison where their only option is to live under a bridge isn’t helping them become productive members of society.
If they’re at a risk of re-offending, we need to keep them in prison in the first place. Sentences for rape are WAY too short.
i have no quarrel with that sentiment. i’m also for meddling with the testosterone supply in the more severe cases…a syringe full of chemicals for those who can’t manage their own…
| 193 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:48:39pm |
re: #175 reine.de.tout
I think it’s very important that, even though they occasionally delve into the theological, the main argument is about the Church as an entity— not as it could be, but as it is. I think that Hitchens and Fry are reasonably fair in that regard. And I agree, I can’t think why that Archbishop was chosen, because his answers at every point were just really either “The church does a lot of good things”, which is rather missing the point, or “The church has a high holy mission that puts them automatically in the ‘doing good’ category”, which doesn’t fly for anyone who isn’t a Catholic.
And the MP they chose is just repellent, seriously. She seems so disgusted to even be questioned on this subject.
However— that is the problem, by and large, with the Catholic church. I know there are good Catholics all around me. However, what we see as the face of them are people like this, and Donahue.
I don’t really have a solution for that. The Church seems very far from St. Francis or Loyola these days.
| 194 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:49:12pm |
re: #185 kirkspencer
Yes. Or at least in Georgia.
Georgia code 16-6-3 says that anyone having sex with someone 16 years of age or younger is committing statutory rape. Loophole is, it’s a misdemeanor if the “rapist” is not more than four years older than the “victim” and the victim is at least 14. But misdemeanor statutory rape will still get you enrolled as a sex offender.
Which is just inane.
FWIW, and this may not be a popular opinion, I find statutory rape to be a fairly stupid crime.
| 195 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:49:34pm |
re: #184 jamesfirecat
Can I have some links to prove that you didn’t just make that up?
Also for reference last time I checked, CU members aren’t immune to criminal charges the way Catholic Church bishops are…
I have to dig up the Clinton era research link. Give me a couple of minutes.
| 196 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:49:55pm |
Who does the teacher’s union claim special dispensation from ? The ghost of Jimmy Hoffa?
When a bishop buggers a little boy he gets it from the Pope.
| 197 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:50:08pm |
re: #190 Dreggas
I forget who, but some blog was documenting the number of kids (teens and even children) who now show up in sex-offender databases for the stupidest things (ie the showing your wee-wee stuff) that used to get them in trouble but now make them out to be monsters. It’s sad.
I get regular notices of “sex offenders” in my neighborhood, through an online sign-up at the sheriffs office and the state police. Plus some categories of offenders have to send notices out.
I’ve only gotten ONE notice where it looked like the guy was a genuine, bona-fide sexual predator. One. Out of maybe 30 or so notices received over the past few years. The others were young men, 18-25 years old - who probably had a young girlfriend they were caught having sex with. I honestly don’t care about them. It’s the ONE genuine predator I’m worried about.
| 198 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:50:10pm |
re: #191 Olsonist
Any cop who arrests and any DA who prosecutes statutory rape which is the law of the land deserves to be without employment.
???? Not understanding you here. Are you saying it’s wrong to prosecute statutory rape?
| 199 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:51:00pm |
This is a partial statement from the Connecticut Catholic Conference:
On March 29, 2010, the Judiciary Committee passed H.B. 5473 (in a 23-20 vote), which would completely eliminate the existing 30 year statute of limitations relating to sexual abuse of a minor. The bill would permit persons alleging such abuse to wait 40, 50, 60 or more years before filing a claim. Although the bill requires additional evidence to file a civil claim after a 30 year period, these provisions are lacking in protecting the right of the accused to present an adequate defense. This legislation is specifically related to abuse claims arising out of the actions of Dr. George Reardon. Civil claims have been filed against Saint Francis Hospital and the Archdiocese of Hartford based on Dr. Reardon’s actions.
Let’s have a look at the disciplinary actions taken against Dr. George Reardon by the Connecticut Department of Public Health:
Order Number 1993-0510-001-083
Order Number 1994-0414-001-082
License revoked for:
1. That in the course of his practice as a licensed physician, Respondent has taken sexually explicit photographs of his minor patients.
2. That in the course of his practice as a licensed physician Respondent has inappropriately manipulated body part of his minor patients.
Reardon denied this with the board however chose not to contest and not face hearing or prosecution from the board. Doing so, the board relinquished itself taking any future prosecution against Reardon.
Chronology of the case can be found here.
Reardon died of a heart attack on September 6, 1998.
The first complaint was filed in 1987.
| 200 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:51:16pm |
re: #192 Aceofwhat?
i have no quarrel with that sentiment. i’m also for meddling with the testosterone supply in the more severe cases…a syringe full of chemicals for those who can’t manage their own…
That works.
| 201 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:51:30pm |
| 202 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:52:29pm |
re: #192 Aceofwhat?
makes me think of this amazing story I heard on This American Life some months back (ironically, the story was about a Canadian).
It tells about a guy that was a child molester that went under chemical castration under his own will.
He talked about the therapy he was taking to change his method of thought, and about his girlfriend who didn’t know about his situation yet.
He was telling himself that she’d be able to handle it, which was just sad to see.
203 |
What, me worry? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:52:30pm |
re: #185 kirkspencer
Yes. Or at least in Georgia.
Georgia code 16-6-3 says that anyone having sex with someone 16 years of age or younger is committing statutory rape. Loophole is, it’s a misdemeanor if the “rapist” is not more than four years older than the “victim” and the victim is at least 14. But misdemeanor statutory rape will still get you enrolled as a sex offender.
I looked up my neighborhood’s sex offender list a few yeas back and was surprised at the number of men. Of the young men listed, it seemed obvious that it was a 16 yr old with an 18 yr old. Not the crime of the century IF he didn’t actually rape her. But they did list the convictions so you can see. Of course, then you see the 30+ and get all freaked out.
| 204 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:53:06pm |
I had sex with a 32 year old woman when I was 17 years old.
I’m just bragging now. Sorry.
| 205 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:53:14pm |
re: #189 Decatur Deb
Relook that. Bishops in the US are in no way immune. Due process has to be used, however.
Well they’re not exactly immune, it’s just that the catholic church shuffles them around rather than properly punishes them, that’s what I was getting at….
| 206 |
Olsonist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:53:27pm |
re: #198 EmmmieG
Yes. I’m saying that law should be changed. OBVIOUSLY if an 18 year old is getting prosecuted for sleeping with his 17 year old girlfriend, (a) the cop/DA need a smacking and (b) the law should be changed.
| 207 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:53:58pm |
re: #193 Obdicut
I think it’s very important that, even though they occasionally delve into the theological, the main argument is about the Church as an entity— not as it could be, but as it is. I think that Hitchens and Fry are reasonably fair in that regard. And I agree, I can’t think why that Archbishop was chosen, because his answers at every point were just really either “The church does a lot of good things”, which is rather missing the point, or “The church has a high holy mission that puts them automatically in the ‘doing good’ category”, which doesn’t fly for anyone who isn’t a Catholic.
…
.
Donohue is a red-faced, angry, blithering idiot.
As to the other - the archbishop missed the point, truly. The Church is its people. Not Mother Teresa, but everyday folks like me. It’s OUR attention to things, to the “good works”, our conviction that we would always advocate for the greater good, that gets things done. And he missed it completely.
| 208 |
Donna Ballard Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:54:24pm |
re: #190 Dreggas
I forget who, but some blog was documenting the number of kids (teens and even children) who now show up in sex-offender databases for the stupidest things (ie the showing your wee-wee stuff) that used to get them in trouble but now make them out to be monsters. It’s sad.
You know, when I was young and stupid we didn’t have cell phones and sexting, but I did take Midol to school and under today’s rules I would be expelled. Where are the administrators brains? Not to mention the poor little girl who got hauled to the police station for writing on her desk? Kids stuff, not smart, but who the heck had great judgment at that age? I certainly as heck didn’t! And it’s real clear that Teachers and school staff still don’t, even as adults!
| 209 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:54:42pm |
re: #206 Olsonist
Yes. I’m saying that law should be changed. OBVIOUSLY if an 18 year old is getting prosecuted for sleeping with his 17 year old girlfriend, (a) the cop/DA need a smacking and (b) the law should be changed.
How about the 23yo sleeping with your 14yo daughter?
| 210 |
Aceofwhat? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:56:04pm |
re: #188 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Sorry. Cut my dick/nuts off, I can still really hurt someone.
Many times… that is what it is about.
Sorry for the crass response, but, I wanted it to be sharp.
Not aimed at you, aimed at the idea of castration.
no sweat!
and i thought it removed the impulse to do something sexual…not all abuse is sexual, of course, but for sexual molesters wouldn’t it remove the drive to molest?
| 211 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:56:09pm |
re: #206 Olsonist
Yes. I’m saying that law should be changed. OBVIOUSLY if an 18 year old is getting prosecuted for sleeping with his 17 year old girlfriend, (a) the cop/DA need a smacking and (b) the law should be changed.
As opposed to all statutory rape? 20 and 13 should be prosecuted, although I would favor boot camp over prison, just to make him grow up.
Teens really do need to be told, though:
Don’t take naked pictures of yourself. 11 points stupid on a 10 point scale.
“She told me she was sixteen” is not a defense, and having sex with someone you just met is really, really dumb. In the doctor’s office having him explain what those little bumps are dumb.
| 212 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:56:13pm |
re: #204 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Interesting thing; look at ’70s and early 80s comedies, things like Animal House, and see how the view of sex with slightly-underaged people has changed.
Tres’ weird.
| 213 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:56:15pm |
re: #204 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
A cougar meets a vegetarian. Dangerous living. :)
| 214 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:56:24pm |
re: #205 jamesfirecat
Well they’re not exactly immune, it’s just that the catholic church shuffles them around rather than properly punishes them, that’s what I was getting at…
Your post shows a misunderstanding that’s common. It’s not the Bishops’ job to punish these priests, except in the sense of employment discipline. It is, or should be, their duty to report suspect cases to the legal authorities. We don’t have ecclesiastical prisons any more. (Ah, the good old days..)
| 215 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:56:31pm |
re: #207 reine.de.tout
Yes. You don’t look at a cathedral and think “A bishop built that.”
| 216 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:57:27pm |
re: #211 EmmmieG
As opposed to all statutory rape? 20 and 13 should be prosecuted, although I would favor boot camp over prison, just to make him grow up.
Teens really do need to be told, though:
Don’t take naked pictures of yourself. 11 points stupid on a 10 point scale.
“She told me she was sixteen” is not a defense, and having sex with someone you just met is really, really dumb. In the doctor’s office having him explain what those little bumps are dumb.
Looks to me like an argument over the numbers here.
And also seems to me, no matter what ages are chosen, somebody is going to think they are too strict, or too loose.
| 217 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:57:48pm |
re: #204 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I had sex with a 32 year old woman when I was 17 years old.
I’m just bragging now. Sorry.
I’m hesitant to open up this can of worms, but flip that and say a 32-year-old guy has sex with a 17-year-old girl.
The societal implication is that the girl has somehow been victimized, which is a holdover from the time where virginity was the whole of a woman’s value and rape was a property crime.
Statutory rape is sexist and implies that young women can’t desire sex or control their own bodies.
| 218 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:58:02pm |
re: #210 Aceofwhat?
Many times it is about inflicting pain and showing power.
| 219 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:58:19pm |
from reading this thread, I have a general question; do you folks think our culture has an unhealthy obsession with minors and sex?
| 220 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:58:39pm |
re: #184 jamesfirecat
Can I have some links to prove that you didn’t just make that up?
Also for reference last time I checked, CU members aren’t immune to criminal charges the way Catholic Church bishops are…
Here’s a link to a seminal study, A Trust Betrayed. All kinds of stuff has been written about that series.
I’m still looking for that other link.
By the way, I don’t ‘make stuff up’.
| 221 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:58:55pm |
re: #219 windsagio
I think we’re really scared of kids. And for kids. But also of kids.
| 222 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:58:56pm |
re: #216 reine.de.tout
Looks to me like an argument over the numbers here.
And also seems to me, no matter what ages are chosen, somebody is going to think they are too strict, or too loose.
Good point. The point of statutory rape is the idea that a child is too young to consent, because they are too young to understand what they are agreeing to.
(All sixteen year olds everywhere think that I am totally wrong, and of course they understand everything.)
| 223 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:59:11pm |
re: #217 ~Fianna
How about this… for clarity…
My daughter.
He’s dead. Deader than any parrot that has ever been in any Monty Python skit.
I am a double standard purist.
| 224 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:00:01pm |
re: #219 windsagio
from reading this thread, I have a general question; do you folks think our culture has an unhealthy obsession with minors and sex?
No.
I do think our culture has so much free time on its hands that people have all sorts of ways of getting into trouble that they didn’t have before, and we’re trying to figure out how to deal with it. And I’m not limiting this thought to sex of minors, it’s just general.
| 225 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:00:30pm |
re: #220 researchok
Here’s a link to a seminal study, A Trust Betrayed. All kinds of stuff has been written about that series.
I’m still looking for that other link.
By the way, I don’t ‘make stuff up’.
You raise a sadly good point about an issue that I didn’t want to be true, but from what I’ve read so far I’m still not seeing any sort of cover up the way that there is with the church, like how if someone is found to be guilty they just send him to teach in another school district….
| 226 |
Stonemason Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:01:15pm |
re: #219 windsagio
from reading this thread, I have a general question; do you folks think our culture has an unhealthy obsession with minors and sex?
yes. Om both counts, and when the two are put together, things get even more obsessive.
Fionna mentioned the sexist view of things, that plays into it as well, women abusing boys, not as much of a problem as men abusing girls, or men abusing boys.
Victorian hold-over? I don’t know what the reason is, but things get quirky when minors and sex is the topic.
| 227 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:02:52pm |
re: #219 windsagio
We have a healthy revulsion of taking sexual advantage of the young. I realize other cultures look at this differently, I think (or so I was told) the Euro edit of The Professional implied sex between the older pro killer and the young girl. The American edit left that out.
IMHO-We got that right, they got it badly wrong.
| 228 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:03:36pm |
re: #224 reine.de.tout
I don’t think its right that abuse is more prevailent now.
It is certainly better publicized tho’, and maybe that’s the key.
Also, things that used to be okay aren’t.
| 229 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:03:51pm |
re: #222 EmmmieG
Good point. The point of statutory rape is the idea that a child is too young to consent, because they are too young to understand what they are agreeing to.
(All sixteen year olds everywhere think that I am totally wrong, and of course they understand everything.)
And to make it all very complex, we have a high school teacher who married his 15 year old student. It is said that she rollerskated to her wedding. Ariel and Will Durant were married about 60 years, and she collaborated on his last works.
| 230 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:04:10pm |
re: #217 ~Fianna
I’m hesitant to open up this can of worms, but flip that and say a 32-year-old guy has sex with a 17-year-old girl.
The societal implication is that the girl has somehow been victimized, which is a holdover from the time where virginity was the whole of a woman’s value and rape was a property crime.
Statutory rape is sexist and implies that young women can’t desire sex or control their own bodies.
I’m afraid I will have to disagree with you. Sex is not a trivial thing, and a person should understand the consequences and the end results before engaging in it. I remember myself at 16. I was an idiot.
To try to pretend that a 15 year old is just like an adult is to ignore the actual MRI scans showing that they are not. The brains aren’t done yet.
| 231 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:04:25pm |
re: #226 Stonemason
yes. Om both counts, and when the two are put together, things get even more obsessive.
Fionna mentioned the sexist view of things, that plays into it as well, women abusing boys, not as much of a problem as men abusing girls, or men abusing boys.
Victorian hold-over? I don’t know what the reason is, but things get quirky when minors and sex is the topic.
Victorians had child brothels.
In fact, possession of child pornography wasn’t even illegal in the US until the 1970s.
(I’m not saying that’s a good thing, btw, I’m just saying that those are the facts)
| 232 |
Aceofwhat? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:04:59pm |
re: #217 ~Fianna
I’m hesitant to open up this can of worms, but flip that and say a 32-year-old guy has sex with a 17-year-old girl.
The societal implication is that the girl has somehow been victimized, which is a holdover from the time where virginity was the whole of a woman’s value and rape was a property crime.
Statutory rape is sexist and implies that young women can’t desire sex or control their own bodies.
sure, at 17. but make it younger and it’s not cool regardless of the gender…i’m not seeing the sexism.
| 233 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:06:04pm |
re: #226 Stonemason
In many instances they can’t see abuse of boys by women, for some reason only men can be abusers in a lot of cases in society. The only time this changes is when it’s a female teacher and a male student. While there is betrayal issues there you very rarely here the boy say “It wasn’t consensual”. Speaking for myself, personally, I lost my virginity in my early teens. It was consensual, I knew what I was doing, and it was to an older (though only by a few years) girl. Now according to law she could have been arrested for statutory rape despite me being the instigator. It was bs, plain and simple.
| 234 |
Donna Ballard Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:06:26pm |
re: #217 ~Fianna
I’m hesitant to open up this can of worms, but flip that and say a 32-year-old guy has sex with a 17-year-old girl.
The societal implication is that the girl has somehow been victimized, which is a holdover from the time where virginity was the whole of a woman’s value and rape was a property crime.
Statutory rape is sexist and implies that young women can’t desire sex or control their own bodies.
It’s a sad fact that a 17 year old girl is vastly more mature than a 17 year old guy, but if she has smart parents they should have had the “TALK” with her about going out with older guys (like my parents did with me) and the consequences of her actions. I meet RWC when he was 19 and I was 17, I didn’t want to wait but I also knew what would happen if we didn’t and I thank my Mom and Dad for taking the time to sit down and tell me what would happen if I was unwise enough to “do it” before I was of legal age. Cheers to smart parents that really care!
| 235 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:06:36pm |
re: #230 EmmmieG
To try to pretend that a 15 year old is just like an adult is to ignore the actual MRI scans showing that they are not. The brains aren’t done yet.
I’m gonna save that one for use on my kid.
| 236 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:06:38pm |
re: #230 EmmmieG
I’m afraid I will have to disagree with you. Sex is not a trivial thing, and a person should understand the consequences and the end results before engaging in it. I remember myself at 16. I was an idiot.
To try to pretend that a 15 year old is just like an adult is to ignore the actual MRI scans showing that they are not. The brains aren’t done yet.
But those brains are built with a healthy impulse to have sex.
Most teenagers do dumb things and live to tell the tale. They always have.
It’s insane to try and legislate hormones. Especially when we’re reinforcing the notion that young women shouldn’t want or desire sex and that somehow women who do are either victims or sluts.
| 237 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:06:38pm |
re: #224 reine.de.tout
Our culture is just starting to deal with the “pornification” of the mainstream. Results to follow, this may or may not go well. Now that smart phones get the net, keeping the family computer in a common area will not help protect the young from exposure to porn. This conflates with all our previous sexual morals and cultural issues of sex even as confused as they already were! What the early age exposures will do the the culture remains to bee seen. I have concerns.
| 238 |
Aceofwhat? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:06:51pm |
re: #220 researchok
Here’s a link to a seminal study, A Trust Betrayed. All kinds of stuff has been written about that series.
I’m still looking for that other link.
By the way, I don’t ‘make stuff up’.
it’s your timing, not your veracity, that i questioned…
| 239 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:07:04pm |
re: #229 Decatur Deb
And to make it all very complex, we have a high school teacher who married his 15 year old student. It is said that she rollerskated to her wedding. Ariel and Will Durant were married about 60 years, and she collaborated on his last works.
Just my opinion—he should have waited until she had finished her education. (Unless 15 was finished back then.)
| 240 |
Aceofwhat? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:08:25pm |
dang. son spilled bubble soap all over the place. SNAFU. bbl.
| 241 |
What, me worry? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:08:27pm |
re: #217 ~Fianna
I’m hesitant to open up this can of worms, but flip that and say a 32-year-old guy has sex with a 17-year-old girl.
The societal implication is that the girl has somehow been victimized, which is a holdover from the time where virginity was the whole of a woman’s value and rape was a property crime.
Statutory rape is sexist and implies that young women can’t desire sex or control their own bodies.
I don’t know. There has to be a cutoff point somewhere. I’m ok with 18 and everything south is suspect. Mostly because while young women desire sex, they usually don’t understand what they’re getting into. There’s A LOT of date rape that never goes reported. Young girls, 15 and 16 especially feel that they’re ready for sex, but mostly sex to them is a lot of kissing and heavy petting, while boys that age, especially north of 17 have a completely different idea. And generally the boy wins.
| 242 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:09:48pm |
re: #239 EmmmieG
Just my opinion—he should have waited until she had finished her education. (Unless 15 was finished back then.)
We see everything through the eyes of here and now. They educated each other until he died. Story here:
| 243 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:10:51pm |
re: #236 ~Fianna
Teenage boys have a “healthy” impulse to drive 30 miles over the speed limit. I’m not for that, either.
I’m not ever going to be for high schoolers having sex.
| 244 |
Donna Ballard Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:11:17pm |
My furry boss is starting to get demanding and RWC is heading home on the train so I’m going to say so long for now. Have a Happy Monday Evening and Keep Laughing Everyone!
| 245 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:11:24pm |
To answer the culture q that Windsagio posed, I don’t think the culture “as a whole” is obsessed with anything.
There are measurable trends that are larger than others however. I think as a nation we have grown much more protective of children over time. This is evident in every thing from child labor laws, to the warning labels that you have to place on toys now.
This protectiveness has gone up as our birthrate has gone down, and I see one as a natural outcome of the other.
| 246 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:12:11pm |
re: #184 jamesfirecat
Can I have some links to prove that you didn’t just make that up?
Also for reference last time I checked, CU members aren’t immune to criminal charges the way Catholic Church bishops are…
The introduction to the study notes the following:
…we believe that sexual misconduct in whatever form it takes is a serious problem in our nation’s schools and one about which parents and taxpayers have a right to be informed. The Department of Education is currently investigating ways to obtain more reliable evidence on the extent of sexual abuse in schools
The author of the report, Charol Shakeshaft, professor of educational administration at Hofstra University in Hempstead, N.Y., said the scope of the school-sex problem appears to far exceed the clergy-abuse scandal that has recently rocked the Roman Catholic Church.
That isn’t to say that sex abuse in public schools is more common- it isn’t. It’s just that given the size of the public school systems, the numbers were bound to be huge.
| 247 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:12:48pm |
re: #232 Aceofwhat?
sure, at 17. but make it younger and it’s not cool regardless of the gender…i’m not seeing the sexism.
There’s a huge patchwork of age-of-consent laws. NV, which is where I live, its 16. Some states are as low as 14.
If you don’t see the difference in genders, that’s pretty awesome, actually, but a lot of people do. Look at the comments on different teacher having sex with kid news stories, and they’re markedly different if the student is male or female.
| 248 |
Tiny alien kittens are watching you Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:13:31pm |
Oh come on, we know that all FEMALE teachers below the age of 65 routinely have sexual escapades with any students they have contact with who are 15 years of age or less.
That obviously gets the Catholic Church completely off the hook for pedophilia right?
Sigh…nice job on changing the subject, it frickkin worked too didn’t it?
Teachers are the problem because a few occasionally seduce horny teenagers to screw them over and over and over, (hey they are like rabbits at that age). That is way worse than Priests sodomizing unwilling boys, right?
Could we please lay off the teachers now?
| 249 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:15:06pm |
re: #237 Rightwingconspirator
Our culture is just starting to deal with the “pornification” of the mainstream. Results to follow, this may or may not go well. Now that smart phones get the net, keeping the family computer in a common area will not help protect the young from exposure to porn. This conflates with all our previous sexual morals and cultural issues of sex even as confused as they already were! What the early age exposures will do the the culture remains to bee seen. I have concerns.
Has anything anywhere ever kept the young from exposure to porn?
I remember a lot of people trying to steal their dad’s or older brother’s magazines or trying to make out the really fuzzy porn channel on tv.
| 250 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:15:12pm |
re: #181 Aceofwhat?
whether or not there is meat on this bone, I for one find it nothing but a distraction in this particular thread. in an Overnight thread? sure. run with it.
right now it just feels like “look at the birdie! look at the birdie!”
don’t know if that was your intention…i can only report the results…
My intent wasn’t divert attention- I never do that. I brought it up because teacher unions have rules applicable only to them. I wanted to discuss that.
| 251 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:15:42pm |
re: #247 ~Fianna
New Hampshire is 13 for Females, 14 for Males. Tennessee was 12, IIRC, in my lifetime.
| 252 |
Donna Ballard Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:15:50pm |
re: #248 ausador
Oh come on, we know that all FEMALE teachers below the age of 65 routinely have sexual escapades with any students they have contact with who are 15 years of age or less.
That obviously gets the Catholic Church completely off the hook for pedophilia right?
Sigh…nice job on changing the subject, it frickkin worked too didn’t it?
Teachers are the problem because a few occasionally seduce horny teenagers to screw them over and over and over, (hey they are like rabbits at that age). That is way worse than Priests sodomizing unwilling boys, right?
Could we please lay off the teachers now?
A few weeks ago we had a Teacher in the Burbank School District turn herself in for having sex with a student. Felt guilty she said, but that didn’t stop her from indulging!
Enough for now, I gotta go! Take care everyone! :-)
| 254 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:18:16pm |
re: #225 jamesfirecat
You raise a sadly good point about an issue that I didn’t want to be true, but from what I’ve read so far I’m still not seeing any sort of cover up the way that there is with the church, like how if someone is found to be guilty they just send him to teach in another school district…
Man, how I wish you were right on that account! The teachers unions have built themselves a bullet proof fortress (not unlike the Church). They won’t even report the offenses in many cases. I recall reading that entire report a few years ago. If you do the math, the numbers will floor you.
| 255 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:18:23pm |
| 257 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:19:35pm |
re: #256 SpaceJesus
lol @ drudge right now
I see you noticed too. Was just looking at that. Total ODS going on there right now.
| 258 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:20:05pm |
259 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:21:13pm |
| 261 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:21:41pm |
| 262 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:21:57pm |
re: #258 Killgore Trout
Bow!
Apparently Obama is going to need to get a metal girder grafted to his spine before these people will be happy. I mean for G-d’s sakes Obama has to be 3 or four inches taller than that guy trying even out the heights is only natural!
| 263 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:22:32pm |
re: #186 reine.de.tout
It’s not the existence of offenders.
It’s that a major religious organization is conspiring to cover up for and protect the offenders, rather than the innocent young lives that should be protected.If the Teacher’s Union does not employ the same tactic, then this has nothing to do with them.
The problem is that they do use the same tactics. That’s why I brought up.
That there is dysfunction everywhere is no secret. Dysfunction is in every society and no one is immune.
It is the length people will go to cover it up that is the cancer here.
| 264 |
What, me worry? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:22:55pm |
re: #251 Decatur Deb
New Hampshire is 13 for Females, 14 for Males. Tennessee was 12, IIRC, in my lifetime.
[Link: www.law.cornell.edu…]
When places adopted consensual age at 14, they did so because girls got married at 16. The laws may be on the books, but against a rape charge, I don’t see how they’d apply.
| 265 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:23:09pm |
what? bowing is how you say “howdy” in parts of asia? purposterous!
| 266 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:23:54pm |
re: #168 researchok
There’s been documented accounts of escalating abuse in the public school system (Clinton era administration issued the first study on that).
I believe we need to make the same demand of the teacher Unions as we do of the church.
What demand?
The statute of limitations for child abuse in Connecticut may be increased. What the hell does that have to do with teachers’ union?
I would call this a straw-man argument if I could even identify an argument.
| 267 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:25:17pm |
re: #263 researchok
The problem is that they do use the same tactics. That’s why I brought up.
That there is dysfunction everywhere is no secret. Dysfunction is in every society and no one is immune.
It is the length people will go to cover it up that is the cancer here.
Can you source this claim? Surely if teachers’ unions are engaging in child molestation cover-ups, there would be an article or two…
| 268 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:25:27pm |
re: #264 marjoriemoon
When places adopted consensual age at 14, they did so because girls got married at 16. The laws may be on the books, but against a rape charge, I don’t see how they’d apply.
Yeah—Some of the really young ages are exceptions that take a court order to permit the marriage.
| 269 |
Tiny alien kittens are watching you Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:25:49pm |
What is wrong with bowing to our Chinese overlords who control our economy and quality of life? We should just be glad they didn’t make Obama Kneel or perhaps kiss his shoes.
/I’m only half joking on this one…
| 270 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:25:55pm |
re: #266 Fozzie Bear
The argument is “HURR TEACHERS UNION BAD!”
| 271 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:26:13pm |
272 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:26:43pm |
re: #261 Thanos
BOWING 2 COMUNASM! !?!?!?!?!? BOWGATE IV!
//
I will link this preemptively in the (almost certainly vain) hope that we can avoid going down this road again:
And let’s go ahead and have this one while were at it:
| 274 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:27:19pm |
re: #266 Fozzie Bear
What demand?
The statute of limitations for child abuse in Connecticut may be increased. What the hell does that have to do with teachers’ union?
I would call this a straw-man argument if I could even identify an argument.
I wasn’t referring to legal demands, but rather to insist on openess. The teachers unions are practically inviolate nowadays.
275 |
b_sharp Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:27:35pm |
re: #243 EmmmieG
Teenage boys have a “healthy” impulse to drive 30 miles over the speed limit. I’m not for that, either.
I’m not ever going to be for high schoolers having sex.
Why?
| 276 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:27:36pm |
re: #272 bratwurst
I will link this preemptively in the (almost certainly vain) hope that we can avoid going down this road again:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
And let’s go ahead and have this one while were at it:
But that’s teh difrunt!
/
| 277 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:28:00pm |
| 278 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:28:09pm |
Some people are handcuffed in and fated to forever drive their late model Huffmobile.
| 282 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:28:50pm |
re: #277 jamesfirecat
Heh, that’s an unwelcome grope.
283 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:28:55pm |
meanwhile, a Wallbuilders Tea Party guy may end up on the Texas Supreme Court
A former Texas legislator who has a good shot at being the next justice on the state’s Supreme Court would bring to the job a checkered ethical past, a Bible-based view of the law, endorsements from Chuck Norris and Alan Keyes, and a commitment to “keeping God in the equation” in American civic life.
[—-]
Green once punched a political rival on election day 2006, and his four-year tenure as a legislator in the Texas House was marked by controversies like the time he filmed an TV infomercial for a nutritional supplement in his Capitol office (more on both of these episodes below).
| 284 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:29:09pm |
re: #281 bratwurst
Now there’s an intelligent contribution to the discussion.
I’m deeply, DEEPLY offended!
| 285 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:30:14pm |
re: #277 jamesfirecat
That’s not a grope!
Image: bush_groping_merkel.jpg
That’s a grope!
proof GWB sexually assaulting a head of state!
| 286 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:30:18pm |
re: #283 negativ
meanwhile, a Wallbuilders Tea Party guy may end up on the Texas Supreme Court
Thanks for brightening up my day.
No offense to the Texas Lizards, but can we just give that state to the Lone Star people and be done with it?
| 287 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:30:21pm |
re: #283 negativ
meanwhile, a Wallbuilders Tea Party guy may end up on the Texas Supreme Court
Let me guess, they’re called Wallbuiders because they want a wall between the US and Mexico?
| 291 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:31:52pm |
re: #286 ~Fianna
Thanks for brightening up my day.
No offense to the Texas Lizards, but can we just give that state to the Lone Star people and be done with it?
you’re getting your geography mixed in with your politics…never a good idea
292 |
Athens Runaway Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:32:28pm |
I was concerned that SpaceJesus wasn’t around, so someone needed to say it. XD
| 293 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:32:30pm |
re: #271 Killgore Trout
He’s just hoping that if he starts hugging down the line, Carla Bruni will be in it somewhere.
| 294 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:33:02pm |
| 296 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:33:17pm |
re: #285 albusteve
proof GWB sexually assaulting a head of state!
s’OK. She’s of age overage somtehing.
| 297 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:33:18pm |
re: #275 b_sharp
Why?
How many teenagers do you know? From an adult persepctive, not your remembered teen perspective?
| 298 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:33:20pm |
I’ve been wondering how conservatives are going to cope with the recovering economy. The screamed, shouted and vigorously opposed every measure to help the economy. Glenn Reynolds linked to this…..
Did the IMF Deliberately Exaggerate the 2008 Financial Crisis?
There was no financial crisis. It was all made up.
Brilliant!
| 299 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:34:17pm |
re: #287 jamesfirecat
Let me guess, they’re called Wallbuiders because they want a wall between the US and Mexico?
Not exactly (though that may be true as well).
Barton serves on the Board of Advisors of the Providence Foundation.[21] In an article discussing Barton, The Nation described the Providence Foundation as “a Christian Reconstructionist group that promotes the idea that biblical law should be instituted in America.”[22]
| 300 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:35:01pm |
re: #298 Killgore Trout
I’ve been wondering how conservatives are going to cope with the recovering economy. The screamed, shouted and vigorously opposed every measure to help the economy. Glenn Reynolds linked to this…
Did the IMF Deliberately Exaggerate the 2008 Financial Crisis?There was no financial crisis. It was all made up.
Brilliant!
Oh yeah, Czech economists have a long history of expertise withe IMF.
Morons.
| 301 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:35:05pm |
re: #298 Killgore Trout
I’ve been wondering how conservatives are going to cope with the recovering economy. The screamed, shouted and vigorously opposed every measure to help the economy. Glenn Reynolds linked to this…
Did the IMF Deliberately Exaggerate the 2008 Financial Crisis?There was no financial crisis. It was all made up.
Brilliant!
That’s not what Bear Stearns said. Figures.
Heads explode! The Dow closed over 11K.
| 302 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:35:12pm |
re: #299 negativ
But then they’d be wall De-buliders because they’d be trying to tear down the already existing wall between church and state….
Fundies make my brain hurt!
| 303 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:35:55pm |
re: #299 negativ
well that was the wrong dang paragraph (PIMF) but anyway… Barton is the founder of the Wallbuilders group. They’re big on theocracy and historical revision.
| 304 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:36:44pm |
hah, never seen a post so deleted that it doesn’t even have a number >>
| 305 |
Croc-Wearing Authoritarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:36:50pm |
re: #271 Killgore Trout
There haven’t been any anarchist riots and “black block” trashing of Starbucks and upscale boutiques at any global conventions for a while.
Is Soros running out of money?
/
| 306 |
Athens Runaway Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:37:15pm |
re: #304 windsagio
hah, never seen a post so deleted that it doesn’t even have a number >>
Stinky was pretty quick on that one, I’ll admit.
| 307 |
prairiefire Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:38:18pm |
re: #230 EmmmieG
Agreed, EmmieG. Under 18 years old is still a minor status as an individual.
| 308 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:38:42pm |
re: #301 Gus 802
That’s not what Bear Stearns said. Figures.
Heads explode! The Dow closed over 11K.
My lawyer/friend is within 10% of his all time high (retirement fund).
Life is getting better (though I believe we are in for a correction).
| 309 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:39:43pm |
re: #308 researchok
My lawyer/friend is within 10% of his all time high (retirement fund).
Life is getting better (though I believe we are in for a correction).
I hope that doesn’t happen until at least Fall.
| 310 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:39:58pm |
re: #308 researchok
My lawyer/friend is within 10% of his all time high (retirement fund).
Life is getting better (though I believe we are in for a correction).
when oil hits $100+ a barrel we will see a correction
| 311 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:42:06pm |
re: #159 researchok
On a similar track, what to do with growing number of public school offenders?
How ought we deal with the Teachers Unions on the matter?
In the only such case that came up while I was working in the public schools, the union didn’t come into it. The police removed the person in question from the campus.
| 312 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:42:27pm |
re: #305 Alouette
There haven’t been any anarchist riots and “black block” trashing of Starbucks and upscale boutiques at any global conventions for a while.
Is Soros running out of money?
/
When they wold these events in Europe they get a lot of protesters. Not many anarchists living in the DC area.
| 313 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:42:43pm |
re: #309 Gus 802
I hope that doesn’t happen until at least Fall.
This last year has me really wary (and still scared). I cashed out and now I’m into Canadian bank stocks now. Safety, you know?
| 314 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:42:55pm |
re: #311 SanFranciscoZionist
In the only such case that came up while I was working in the public schools, the union didn’t come into it. The police removed the person in question from the campus.
The next piece of evidence presented here of teacher’s unions protecting sex offenders will be the first.
| 315 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:43:37pm |
re: #311 SanFranciscoZionist
In the only such case that came up while I was working in the public schools, the union didn’t come into it. The police removed the person in question from the campus.
I wish that were always the case.
| 316 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:43:49pm |
re: #168 researchok
There’s been documented accounts of escalating abuse in the public school system (Clinton era administration issued the first study on that).
I believe we need to make the same demand of the teacher Unions as we do of the church.
Because right now, we don’t? Please explain.
| 317 |
BlackFedora Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:43:59pm |
Are they trying to have a worse reputation than the Church of Scientology?
318 |
Stanley Sea Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:44:19pm |
Dang it. The National Enquirer did not win a Pulitzer for its John Edwards story.
| 319 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:44:22pm |
re: #172 researchok
Not fair- the teacher unions have been demanding separate standards for public school for years now.
On matters of criminal behavior? PLEASE link.
| 320 |
Stanley Sea Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:45:36pm |
re: #316 SanFranciscoZionist
Can you believe you returned to this again?
| 321 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:45:42pm |
re: the latest bow on Drudge - I find it odd that after all the flack Obama has taken, why continue to bow? The Chinese guy is standing spine straight looking Obama right in the eyes. Why bow, er, lean over and look at the floor?
322 |
freetoken Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:46:11pm |
re: #298 Killgore Trout
… Glenn Reynolds linked to this…
Did the IMF Deliberately Exaggerate the 2008 Financial Crisis?…
BUY GOLD!!
| 324 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:46:36pm |
Ugh….
Bishop ‘blames Jews’ for criticism of Catholic church record on abuse
The comments, which have been denied by the bishop, follow a series of statements from Catholic churchmen alleging the existence of plots to weaken the church and Pope Benedict XVI.
Allegedly speaking to the Catholic website Pontifex, Babini, 81, was quoted as saying: “They do not want the church, they are its natural enemies. Deep down, historically speaking, the Jews are God killers.”
| 325 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:46:41pm |
re: #321 Racer X
re: the latest bow on Drudge - I find it odd that after all the flack Obama has taken, why continue to bow? The Chinese guy is standing spine straight looking Obama right in the eyes. Why bow, er, lean over and look at the floor?
At least it took longer than I thought to get into this…
| 326 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:47:00pm |
re: #310 albusteve
when oil hits $100+ a barrel we will see a correction
Well before then, I ‘ll bet. The closer it gets to 90 bbl, the more likely a correctionEx.
Futures were down today, gas prices up. Explain that.
| 327 |
b_sharp Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:47:44pm |
re: #297 EmmmieG
How many teenagers do you know? From an adult persepctive, not your remembered teen perspective?
What does that have to do with it?
Either you’re attempting to say I don’t know what I’m talking about because I don’t know enough teenagers or if I knew enough teenagers the answer would be obvious. I suspect the latter.
Neither answer the question.
I can think of two basic reasons, potential pregnancy and disease, both of which can be countered with education and other prophylactic solutions.
I believe drugs and alcohol are much larger problems than sex.
| 328 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:48:34pm |
re: #195 researchok
[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com…]
I have to dig up the Clinton era research link. Give me a couple of minutes.
2,500 cases in 5 years. I wonder if the numbers are actually going up, or if the crimes are just being much more widely reported and acted on.
In any event, the teachers in question do not appear to have been sheltered from the law by their unions, so I still fail to see why this is being brought up except as another tragic example of how vulnerable children are.
Can I assume that was your purpose?
329 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:48:44pm |
re: #9 rwoods
Nice first comment, asshole. But thanks for making sure I don’t have the bottom comment today.
| 330 |
freetoken Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:48:45pm |
BTW, for all the rare fruit connoisseurs out there… this week seems to be the week for loquats here in San Diego. I’ve seen several trees with fruit that look like the next few days should be peak.
| 331 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:48:54pm |
re: #321 Racer X
Becaues there’s no reason to stop really? Crazies being evil is hardly compelling reason.
I hope that its him subtly giving them the finger, but he’s probably not :P
332 |
Ojoe Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:49:02pm |
The proposed change to the law would put “all Church institutions, including your parish, at risk,” says the letter, which was signed by Connecticut’s three Roman Catholic bishops.
WTF ! ? !
I Quit even my bad Catholicism.
| 333 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:50:13pm |
| 335 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:50:23pm |
re: #321 Racer X
re: the latest bow on Drudge - I find it odd that after all the flack Obama has taken, why continue to bow? The Chinese guy is standing spine straight looking Obama right in the eyes. Why bow, er, lean over and look at the floor?
YEAH!!! Obama should have just pounded that dude in the dome!!1!!one!!eleven!!!111!!111!!!!!
//
| 336 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:50:27pm |
re: #324 Killgore Trout
Ugh…
Bishop ‘blames Jews’ for criticism of Catholic church record on abuse
Stupid, mindless Antisemitism.
| 337 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:50:33pm |
re: #211 EmmmieG
As opposed to all statutory rape? 20 and 13 should be prosecuted, although I would favor boot camp over prison, just to make him grow up.
Teens really do need to be told, though:
Don’t take naked pictures of yourself. 11 points stupid on a 10 point scale.
“She told me she was sixteen” is not a defense, and having sex with someone you just met is really, really dumb. In the doctor’s office having him explain what those little bumps are dumb.
One of my students tried very hard to convince me after the big sex-ed workshop day that telling them not to sext was just encouraging them to have real sex.
My mother is deeply worried that the upcoming generation seems to think sex is something you can phone in.
| 338 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:51:29pm |
re: #216 reine.de.tout
Looks to me like an argument over the numbers here.
And also seems to me, no matter what ages are chosen, somebody is going to think they are too strict, or too loose.
What I think is horrible is that in California, oral sex is considered ‘abuse’ in situations where intercourse would not be. How STUPID is that?
| 339 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:51:31pm |
| 340 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:51:52pm |
re: #219 windsagio
from reading this thread, I have a general question; do you folks think our culture has an unhealthy obsession with minors and sex?
Yes.
| 341 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:51:52pm |
| 342 |
What, me worry? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:52:50pm |
re: #336 Dark_Falcon
Stupid, mindless Antisemitism.
Whoa! Back it up! I thought the Catholics liked us now. Or is Mel Gibson a visionary?
| 343 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:52:54pm |
| 344 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:52:56pm |
re: #331 windsagio
Becaues there’s no reason to stop really? Crazies being evil is hardly compelling reason.
I hope that its him subtly giving them the finger, but he’s probably not :P
Well, its annoying as hell really. Plus he knows how to subtly give someone the finger.
345 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:53:35pm |
Good Evening Elephoncos, Doncos and plain old Honcos.
| 346 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:53:46pm |
re: #335 Fozzie Bear
YEAH!!! Obama should have just pounded that dude in the dome!!1!!one!!eleven!!!111!!111!!!
//
Why not just shake his hand the same way he is doing?
| 347 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:53:52pm |
re: #337 SanFranciscoZionist
One of my students tried very hard to convince me after the big sex-ed workshop day that telling them not to sext was just encouraging them to have real sex.
My mother is deeply worried that the upcoming generation seems to think sex is something you can phone in.
We always encouraged our teenaged boys to phone in their sexlives.
| 348 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:54:02pm |
re: #343 SpaceJesus
what if i want like 4 tacos
then you’re a pig, but pigs need to eat too…it’s done
| 349 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:54:13pm |
re: #316 SanFranciscoZionist
Because right now, we don’t? Please explain.
See these
Exiled Queens teacher on payroll despite knocking up student
In California, accused teachers are paid to stay at home
“Winners” Announced in “Ten Worst Union-Protected Teachers Contest”
| 350 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:54:55pm |
re: #233 Dreggas
In many instances they can’t see abuse of boys by women, for some reason only men can be abusers in a lot of cases in society. The only time this changes is when it’s a female teacher and a male student. While there is betrayal issues there you very rarely here the boy say “It wasn’t consensual”. Speaking for myself, personally, I lost my virginity in my early teens. It was consensual, I knew what I was doing, and it was to an older (though only by a few years) girl. Now according to law she could have been arrested for statutory rape despite me being the instigator. It was bs, plain and simple.
I remember once being in a class where we were reading the story of Joseph and Potiphar’s wife. The professor was playing up some of the phrases in the Hebrew, and people were laughing at the way he presented it.
Then one of the men in class said, ‘Hold it. This is a teenage boy, he’s been enslaved, possibly already sexually abused, and this much older woman in a position of almost total power over him, comes on to him—knowing that if her husband finds out, he will probably kill the kid.
This is funny?”
And we shut up.
| 351 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:55:05pm |
| 352 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:56:03pm |
re: #321 Racer X
re: the latest bow on Drudge - I find it odd that after all the flack Obama has taken, why continue to bow? The Chinese guy is standing spine straight looking Obama right in the eyes. Why bow, er, lean over and look at the floor?
I think because Obama’s trying to look him in the eye and not over his head.
That doesn’t seem like a bow as much as it seems like a polite head nod acknowledgment.
| 353 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:56:21pm |
| 354 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:57:24pm |
re: #242 Decatur Deb
We see everything through the eyes of here and now. They educated each other until he died. Story here:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
Love is a beautiful thing, but I suspect that they would have loved just as long and as well if they had waited until she was eighteen, or better, twenty-one, to marry.
And not everyone who thinks they’re really in love at fifteen is. (Some are. But not all.)
The mother of Anne’s best friend in the “Anne of Green Gables” books says that her daughter is not to get married under any circumstances until she’s twenty-one, and I have to say I rather agree with that.
| 355 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:57:41pm |
re: #349 researchok
See these
Exiled Queens teacher on payroll despite knocking up student
In California, accused teachers are paid to stay at home
“Winners” Announced in “Ten Worst Union-Protected Teachers Contest”
CA public schools are a monumental money pit, same as their corrections system….sate employee unions have drained their budget for decades
| 356 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:57:56pm |
re: #250 researchok
My intent wasn’t divert attention- I never do that. I brought it up because teacher unions have rules applicable only to them. I wanted to discuss that.
What are they?
| 357 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:58:07pm |
re: #353 windsagio
Whats annoying, the bowing?
Or the complaining about the bowing?
I am significantly more annoyed by the latter than the former.
| 358 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:58:13pm |
re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist
2,500 cases in 5 years. I wonder if the numbers are actually going up, or if the crimes are just being much more widely reported and acted on.
In any event, the teachers in question do not appear to have been sheltered from the law by their unions, so I still fail to see why this is being brought up except as another tragic example of how vulnerable children are.
Can I assume that was your purpose?
Yes, that was the reason. I also posted a link that’s a heart breaker. A Education department study that looked at the problem. The numbers will stun you. Link is here, #246
| 359 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:58:33pm |
| 360 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:58:36pm |
re: #357 bratwurst
I am significantly more annoyed by the latter than the former.
I bow to that observation.
| 361 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:59:23pm |
re: #357 bratwurst
I am significantly more annoyed by the latter than the former.
you sensitivity to annoyance is the bigger story….but you guys just don’t seen to get that
| 363 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:00:24pm |
re: #315 researchok
I wish that were always the case.
So do I, but I’m still waiting for some indication of what you want changed about the unions that will increase that outcome.
| 364 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:00:42pm |
re: #357 bratwurst
I think somebody’s prejudices are showing, because otherwise they’d only be annoyed at the people drumming up the obvious nontroversy >>
| 365 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:00:44pm |
re: #361 albusteve
you sensitivity to annoyance is the bigger story…but you guys just don’t seen to get that
Yep. And you’re once again annoyed by the people being annoyed at the annoyed people.
| 366 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:00:58pm |
re: #320 Stanley Sea
Can you believe you returned to this again?
Sure. All things are cyclical. Like the water cycle. And arguments about ACORN.
| 367 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:01:32pm |
re: #356 SanFranciscoZionist
What are they?
From what I’ve read, it has become very difficult to fire a teacher, no matter how outrageous the charges. In addition, I’ve read the unions often threaten the schools with lawsuits if they bring charges against the teachers. I do believe that was in the gov report, if I recall correctly.
| 368 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:01:38pm |
re: #354 SanFranciscoZionist
Love is a beautiful thing, but I suspect that they would have loved just as long and as well if they had waited until she was eighteen, or better, twenty-one, to marry.
And not everyone who thinks they’re really in love at fifteen is. (Some are. But not all.)
The mother of Anne’s best friend in the “Anne of Green Gables” books says that her daughter is not to get married under any circumstances until she’s twenty-one, and I have to say I rather agree with that.
I’m not recommending it for the 21st century, but her age was probably not that shocking in 1912. At any rate it certainly worked for them.
| 369 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:01:39pm |
re: #362 darthstar
Conan’s going to TBS! Fuck you, FOX!
Good for him. What would be really interesting is if the Simpson’s moved, but I heard that the TV show the Simpsons is like Rupert Murdoch’s one ring of power….
| 372 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:02:13pm |
re: #342 marjoriemoon
Whoa! Back it up! I thought the Catholics liked us now. Or is Mel Gibson a visionary?
No, I think this guy is just old enough to remember the bad old days.
| 373 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:02:19pm |
| 374 |
Fozzie Bear Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:02:43pm |
re: #349 researchok
See these
Exiled Queens teacher on payroll despite knocking up student
In California, accused teachers are paid to stay at home
“Winners” Announced in “Ten Worst Union-Protected Teachers Contest”
Not one of those articles documents an instance of a union attempting to cover up a molestation, or protecting a teacher who has committed same.
| 375 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:02:49pm |
re: #365 Gus 802
Yep. And you’re once again annoyed by the people being annoyed at the annoyed people.
I’m not annoyed, just making an observation, in that if it is a trivial matter why not treat it that way….rise above it and break the annoyance chain
| 376 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:03:00pm |
| 377 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:03:33pm |
re: #361 albusteve
you sensitivity to annoyance is the bigger story
If the President of the United States were, in fact, a “drooling idiot” as you have personally asserted right here on LGF, SURELY there would be more of a basis for criticism of him than his choice to bow to Asians.
| 379 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:04:36pm |
re: #355 albusteve
CA public schools are a monumental money pit, same as their corrections system…sate employee unions have drained their budget for decades
I read the CA Corrections Officers Unions has the budget of a small country.
| 380 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:04:48pm |
re: #378 windsagio
DAMMIT forgot to put in the text. In your imagination, change the title to “Life is offensive!”
| 381 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:05:37pm |
re: #377 bratwurst
If the President of the United States were, in fact, a “drooling idiot” as you have personally asserted right here on LGF, SURELY there would be more of a basis for criticism of him than his choice to bow to Asians.
darn right!…I’ve never cared about his body language…it’s the spoken language that disturbs me
| 382 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:06:03pm |
re: #375 albusteve
I’m not annoyed, just making an observation, in that if it is a trivial matter why not treat it that way…rise above it and break the annoyance chain
The cycle of annoyance is a bugger.
| 383 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:06:48pm |
re: #374 Fozzie Bear
Not one of those articles documents an instance of a union attempting to cover up a molestation, or protecting a teacher who has committed same.
As I noted, I believe I read that in EDU report I read. I posted the link to that earlier. I’ll dig that up.
That said, there is a whole other set of problems with the teachers unions. Like the Church, they don’t like to fire anyone.
| 384 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:07:22pm |
re: #341 albusteve
meet me at taqueria…you can get a taco
you forget he’s like, 3 people.
Gonna need to spring for more than one taco methinks.
| 385 |
Croc-Wearing Authoritarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:07:25pm |
re: #312 Killgore Trout
When they wold these events in Europe they get a lot of protesters. Not many anarchists living in the DC area.
Not even to counter-protest the tea parties?
386 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:08:00pm |
re: #79 Obdicut
If evidence weakens over time, then it’s harder to get a conviction.
It’s really not. It is also because we recognize that ruining a person’s life for a crime they committed a long time ago can be considered to be unfair and pointless It raises questions of rehabilitation, punishment, and recidivism.
With a crime like child abuse, with large amounts of recidivism, I see no reason to have any statute of limitations. I do think that proving something that happened so long ago is difficult— and so do judges and juries.
You cannot keep holding up one anecdotal case as an example. It proves nothing at all.
and an anecdotal criminal case when we’re talking about civil law, no less!
| 387 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:08:12pm |
re: #349 researchok
See these
Exiled Queens teacher on payroll despite knocking up student
In California, accused teachers are paid to stay at home
“Winners” Announced in “Ten Worst Union-Protected Teachers Contest”
In the first two cases, the problem is that they can’t fire a tenured teacher unless the teacher is found guilty in the court system. So they keep them on, out of the classroom.
Is that stupid? Yes, I think that they should be able to break tenure under some of the circumstances. But they didn’t cover up, and they didn’t hide the teachers from the law. Apparently, in the first case, the courts couldn’t nail him.
Is it remotely equivalent to the kind of malfeasance repeatedly committed by the Catholic Church? That’s ridiculous. They’re not protecting their teachers from being punished by the law. They’re not covering up criminal actions.
As for the third website, uh, they seem to have a teeny weeny agenda there.
| 388 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:08:41pm |
re: #379 researchok
I read the CA Corrections Officers Unions has the budget of a small country.
I’m certain that’s true. California has run itself into the ground and runaway spending is the biggest issue.
| 389 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:08:50pm |
| 390 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:09:27pm |
re: #172 researchok
Not fair- the teacher unions have been demanding separate standards for public school for years now.
hahaha you know we have a teacher or two on this board, right? Down the fuck ding
| 391 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:09:31pm |
re: #379 researchok
I read the CA Corrections Officers Unions has the budget of a small country.
11-12 billion?….they are broke and releasing non violent felons by the boatload, with no back up in terms of any attention thereafter….just cut them loose…I hope it works out but it does not address the spending problems…apologists always have excuses, but the unions killed CA…and LA is broke now too…together with massive ag biz unemployment due to playing politics with the Sac river water system, stroking the greenies etc…they are in a mess
| 392 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:09:50pm |
re: #367 researchok
From what I’ve read, it has become very difficult to fire a teacher, no matter how outrageous the charges. In addition, I’ve read the unions often threaten the schools with lawsuits if they bring charges against the teachers. I do believe that was in the gov report, if I recall correctly.
I’ll examine the report.
| 393 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:10:45pm |
re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist
In the first two cases, the problem is that they can’t fire a tenured teacher unless the teacher is found guilty in the court system. So they keep them on, out of the classroom.
Is that stupid? Yes, I think that they should be able to break tenure under some of the circumstances. But they didn’t cover up, and they didn’t hide the teachers from the law. Apparently, in the first case, the courts couldn’t nail him.
Is it remotely equivalent to the kind of malfeasance repeatedly committed by the Catholic Church? That’s ridiculous. They’re not protecting their teachers from being punished by the law. They’re not covering up criminal actions.
As for the third website, uh, they seem to have a teeny weeny agenda there.
Still those first two are insane. Heck, even Chicago is better able to can a bad teacher than New York is. (Actually, that’s one category in which Chicago actually does quite well.)
| 394 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:11:22pm |
re: #321 Racer X
re: the latest bow on Drudge - I find it odd that after all the flack Obama has taken, why continue to bow? The Chinese guy is standing spine straight looking Obama right in the eyes. Why bow, er, lean over and look at the floor?
I’m going on the record.
I hated the Bush bowing and hand-holding
And I don’t like the Obama bowing either.
Although - when I meet someone for the first time, greeting them, I often tilt my head to one side. Is that sort of like a bow?
| 395 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:11:45pm |
re: #390 WindUpBird
hahaha you know we have a teacher or two on this board, right? Down the fuck ding
So the reports are incorrect? Is that what you’re saying?
| 396 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:12:00pm |
re: #383 researchok
As I noted, I believe I read that in EDU report I read. I posted the link to that earlier. I’ll dig that up.
That said, there is a whole other set of problems with the teachers unions. Like the Church, they don’t like to fire anyone.
The Church has repeatedly protected men who rape children for decades, moving them periodically to fresh pastures of victims.
I am having some trouble taking this terrible concern you have about teacher’s unions making it hard to fire teachers too seriously by contrast.
If they’re in jail, they can’t draw a salary.
| 397 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:12:15pm |
re: #384 reine.de.tout
you forget he’s like, 3 people.
Gonna need to spring for more than one taco methinks.
a good taco is about $2…I can handle it, beyond that I might get a group discount
| 398 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:12:55pm |
re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist
In the first two cases, the problem is that they can’t fire a tenured teacher unless the teacher is found guilty in the court system. So they keep them on, out of the classroom.
Is that stupid? Yes, I think that they should be able to break tenure under some of the circumstances. But they didn’t cover up, and they didn’t hide the teachers from the law. Apparently, in the first case, the courts couldn’t nail him.
Is it remotely equivalent to the kind of malfeasance repeatedly committed by the Catholic Church? That’s ridiculous. They’re not protecting their teachers from being punished by the law. They’re not covering up criminal actions.
As for the third website, uh, they seem to have a teeny weeny agenda there.
It’s clear the website has an agenda. That said, the cases they cited are real and not made up.
399 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:13:05pm |
re: #383 researchok
That said, there is a whole other set of problems with the teachers unions. Like the Church, they don’t like to fire anyone.
True. The teacher’s union is some bullshit.
But be honest, the only reason people are bringing up the teacher’s union is for another “liberals/socialists/unions did it too” in defense of church/religion/private sector. LAME!!!!!!!!
| 400 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:13:28pm |
re: #395 researchok
I normally don’t do this, but shoo.
We don’t care that you have this Redwood tree up your ass about unions.
| 401 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:13:58pm |
re: #395 researchok
So the reports are incorrect? Is that what you’re saying?
Do the articles you link show that teacher’s unions are not as pure as the driven snow? Of course. This fact was already well known.
Do they show anything like the systematic protection of sex offenders that you have suggested? Not even close.
| 402 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:14:13pm |
re: #395 researchok
So the reports are incorrect? Is that what you’re saying?
I’m saying that:
a. bringing this up in the context of sexual abuse in the Church is a bit silly
b. you’re not making much of a case for anything except that tenure should be easier to break in some districts. I agree.
403 |
swamprat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:14:28pm |
re: #221 Obdicut
If you want, we can continue yesterdays’ discussion about why the Rev. Wrights’ sermons are potentially violence-inspiring.
| 404 |
Croc-Wearing Authoritarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:14:34pm |
For some utterly bizarre reason, after reading about Holocaust memorials all day long, this picture just got to me.
Do not deport Auschwitz kitteh!
| 405 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:15:01pm |
re: #391 albusteve
11-12 billion?…they are broke and releasing non violent felons by the boatload, with no back up in terms of any attention thereafter…just cut them loose…I hope it works out but it does not address the spending problems…apologists always have excuses, but the unions killed CA…and LA is broke now too…together with massive ag biz unemployment due to playing politics with the Sac river water system, stroking the greenies etc…they are in a mess
Nope. Not 11 to 12 billion. The total assets for all California Unions is about 1.1 billion. And that’s from a popular anti-union site.
| 406 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:15:05pm |
re: #349 researchok
See these
Exiled Queens teacher on payroll despite knocking up student
In California, accused teachers are paid to stay at home
“Winners” Announced in “Ten Worst Union-Protected Teachers Contest”
Sorry you get the big Fail for those Links, They don’t call Richard Berman Dr. Evil for nothing. You have real news stories?
Read about CUF and Dr. Evil above, and don’t be his tool.
| 407 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:15:06pm |
re: #394 reine.de.tout
I’m going on the record.
I hated the Bush bowing and hand-holding
And I don’t like the Obama bowing either.Although - when I meet someone for the first time, greeting them, I often tilt my head to one side. Is that sort of like a bow?
Only if you make a little circle in the air with your white gloved hand.
| 408 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:15:13pm |
re: #400 windsagio
I normally don’t do this, but shoo.
We don’t care that you have this Redwood tree up your ass about unions.
obviously not….that’s the point, unions are too deep into govt’s pocket and it hasn’t turned out good for everybody
| 409 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:15:27pm |
| 410 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:15:36pm |
re: #398 researchok
It’s clear the website has an agenda. That said, the cases they cited are real and not made up.
Still not making much of a case.
| 411 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:16:11pm |
re: #401 bratwurst
Do the articles you link show that teacher’s unions are not as pure as the driven snow? Of course. This fact was already well known.
Do they show anything like the systematic protection of sex offenders that you have suggested? Not even close.
But to heck with it, any excuse to break the teachers’ unions.
| 412 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:16:44pm |
re: #404 Alouette
For some utterly bizarre reason, after reading about Holocaust memorials all day long, this picture just got to me.
Do not deport Auschwitz kitteh!
I’m tearing up. That said I’m a cat person (yeah real surprise) but I think the cat should stay there… there’s something.. (ironically) humanizing about having it there… like thinking about how those prisoners in the camp had so much taken away from them, their homes, their pets, possibly their loved ones or their lives….
| 413 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:17:17pm |
re: #404 Alouette
For some utterly bizarre reason, after reading about Holocaust memorials all day long, this picture just got to me.
Do not deport Auschwitz kitteh!
If it chooses to live there, let it stay. It looks perfectly healthy and content, and I’m sure the staff can bring it tuna.
| 414 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:17:25pm |
| 415 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:17:51pm |
re: #399 Vambo
True. The teacher’s union is some bullshit.
But be honest, the only reason people are bringing up the teacher’s union is for another “liberals/socialists/unions did it too” in defense of church/religion/private sector. LAME!!!
No, there are some teachers on here- and I believe them to be damn good teachers. I disn’t bring this up to make this about equivalence.
No matter where on the spectrum they stand, I suspect they are as outraged as anyone else is when it comes to these matters. I’ve beebn reading this board for a long time. This argument isn’t degraded (for most, anyway).
Where we part company (in a political sense) is in the scope of the problem. I submit when the data is read, they’ll share more of the same outrage because the numbers are appalling.
| 416 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:17:59pm |
re: #404 Alouette
For some utterly bizarre reason, after reading about Holocaust memorials all day long, this picture just got to me.
Do not deport Auschwitz kitteh!
If you move it to a shelter, you’d probably have to keep it there. If cats aren’t raised around humans, they tend to not be viable as pets. A feral cat like that may look like your house cat, but it has a very different temperament.
| 417 |
keloyd Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:18:00pm |
A bit off topic, but the big banner above the main page is “ATLAH Ministries - Obama was a CIA spy at Columbia, Trial of The Century.”
Does LGF, or if Charles is present, do you control who advertises here? That Harlem minister is nuttier than squirrel poo and was the source of a dozen juicy stories during the election. It’s politically akin to having MUFON buying ad space - not offensive, to me, but very much out of place.
I just don’t know enough inside-baseball about how the internets work to know what to think yet, seeing THAT on LGF.
| 418 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:18:22pm |
re: #399 Vambo
True. The teacher’s union is some bullshit.
…snip
In court, the prosecutor has a job, and the defense lawyer has a job. The same relationship prevails between administrators and teachers in a workplace conflict. Don’t blame unions for doing their job too well—get more competent school board negotiators.
| 419 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:18:28pm |
| 420 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:18:54pm |
re: #402 SanFranciscoZionist
I’m saying that:
a. bringing this up in the context of sexual abuse in the Church is a bit silly
b. you’re not making much of a case for anything except that tenure should be easier to break in some districts. I agree.
You need to read that Education department report. You’ll be stunned.
| 421 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:19:25pm |
re: #395 researchok
So the reports are incorrect? Is that what you’re saying?
The reports do not assert what you claim they assert, and to bring them to the level of the institutional coverup of abuse in the Catholic church is
DUMBFUCKED
Capiche?
| 422 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:19:25pm |
re: #415 researchok
Where we part company (in a political sense) is in the scope of the problem. I submit when the data is read, they’ll share more of the same outrage because the numbers are appalling.
Can we at least concede there is, in fact, NOTHING like a systematic protection of sex offenders going on in unions?
| 423 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:19:28pm |
re: #405 Gus 802
Nope. Not 11 to 12 billion. The total assets for all California Unions is about 1.1 billion. And that’s from a popular anti-union site.
California is spending more than $8 billion on corrections this year, more than 10 percent of the massive state budget
reason.org
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger in January called for a constitutional amendment that would cap prison spending and put the savings toward public universities. And since last summer, lawmakers have tried to wring more than $2 billion from the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, once budgeted for $10 billion.
| 424 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:19:37pm |
re: #401 bratwurst
Do the articles you link show that teacher’s unions are not as pure as the driven snow? Of course. This fact was already well known.
Do they show anything like the systematic protection of sex offenders that you have suggested? Not even close.
Must agree. The unions created insane and ultimately unsustainable work rules, but they have not tried to prevent teachers who raped children from being sent to prison.
| 425 |
What, me worry? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:19:40pm |
re: #413 SanFranciscoZionist
If it chooses to live there, let it stay. It looks perfectly healthy and content, and I’m sure the staff can bring it tuna.
I would be afraid it would get cold in the winter. Someone should adopt it.
| 426 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:19:45pm |
re: #398 researchok
It’s clear the website has an agenda. That said, the cases they cited are real and not made up.
They have an agenda that you support, you mean.
| 427 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:19:54pm |
As usual, nobody talking about California problems is addressing the actual problems, but instead prefer to focus on half of the equation.
| 428 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:20:05pm |
re: #417 keloyd
A bit off topic, but the big banner above the main page is “ATLAH Ministries - Obama was a CIA spy at Columbia, Trial of The Century.”
Does LGF, or if Charles is present, do you control who advertises here? That Harlem minister is nuttier than squirrel poo and was the source of a dozen juicy stories during the election. It’s politically akin to having MUFON buying ad space - not offensive, to me, but very much out of place.
I just don’t know enough inside-baseball about how the internets work to know what to think yet, seeing THAT on LGF.
I believe the advertising runs on keywords, which is why we have had Goldline, Muslim singles services, and other rather odd things.
| 429 |
What, me worry? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:20:32pm |
re: #416 Dark_Falcon
If you move it to a shelter, you’d probably have to keep it there. If cats aren’t raised around humans, they tend to not be viable as pets. A feral cat like that may look like your house cat, but it has a very different temperament.
I’ve had a lot of feral cats. Feed em, house them. They adjust. Some better than others.
| 430 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:20:43pm |
re: #417 keloyd
A bit off topic, but the big banner above the main page is “ATLAH Ministries - Obama was a CIA spy at Columbia, Trial of The Century.”
Does LGF, or if Charles is present, do you control who advertises here? That Harlem minister is nuttier than squirrel poo and was the source of a dozen juicy stories during the election. It’s politically akin to having MUFON buying ad space - not offensive, to me, but very much out of place.
I just don’t know enough inside-baseball about how the internets work to know what to think yet, seeing THAT on LGF.
The answer to your question is yes and no.
A website owner doesn’t choose the content that the ad service provides, but they can specifically request not to have certain ads on their site.
The rest is keyword magic. There’s something that someone’s typed here that makes that ad come up.
Also, depending on how the ads are structured, we may not all see the same ad. Some may be localized or served up based on our browse history before and during our time on LGF.
| 431 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:21:04pm |
re: #423 albusteve
California is spending more than $8 billion on corrections this year, more than 10 percent of the massive state budget
[Link: reason.org…]
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger in January called for a constitutional amendment that would cap prison spending and put the savings toward public universities. And since last summer, lawmakers have tried to wring more than $2 billion from the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, once budgeted for $10 billion.[Link: www.mercurynews.com…]
That’s not the union, though, that’s what we spend as a state on prisons.
| 432 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:21:06pm |
re: #427 Obdicut
Partisanship and confirmation bias are so much more fun than trying to work out the real complexities of a situation.
| 433 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:21:13pm |
re: #423 albusteve
California is spending more than $8 billion on corrections this year, more than 10 percent of the massive state budget[Link: reason.org…]
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger in January called for a constitutional amendment that would cap prison spending and put the savings toward public universities. And since last summer, lawmakers have tried to wring more than $2 billion from the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, once budgeted for $10 billion.[Link: www.mercurynews.com…]
Oh, then you must have misunderstood. The dialogue went like this:
re: #379 researchok
I read the CA Corrections Officers Unions has the budget of a small country.
Then you answered with:
11-12 billion?
| 434 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:21:46pm |
re: #415 researchok
You still haven’t shown me a thing that stacks up against centuries of worldwide lawbreaking and institutionalized cover up. Olivares gets trotted out every time because they failed to convict, there’s not much the school board can do. And of course the accused collect salary until they are found guilty, that’s the way the law works. In the church’s case the guy gets transported and there is no trial.
Now, how does excuse the church?
| 435 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:21:52pm |
With the very recent death of the miners in a non-union mine, this union bashing is fucking moronic.
| 436 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:22:12pm |
re: #431 SanFranciscoZionist
That’s not the union, though, that’s what we spend as a state on prisons.
yes, I meant to qualify that…my bad
| 437 |
freetoken Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:22:42pm |
re: #427 Obdicut
You mean things like the absurd Three-Strikes law, that fills up prisons with people just because they have an oz of mj in their pocket? To me that is one of the sillier corners into which we’ve painted ourselves.
| 438 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:22:44pm |
re: #425 marjoriemoon
I would be afraid it would get cold in the winter. Someone should adopt it.
Cats are remarkably good at taking care of themselves in cold climates, but it would be nice if it could be encouraged to spend some time indoors. Perhaps a cat door could be installed at one of the visitor’s buildings?
Getting a feral to become a housecat isn’t always easy. My mother’s office had a feral cat attached to it for years. They finally convinced her to come JUST inside and eat, toward the end of her life, but it wasn’t easy.
| 439 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:22:51pm |
re: #429 marjoriemoon
I’ve had a lot of feral cats. Feed em, house them. They adjust. Some better than others.
That I did not know. I didn’t think they took well to such a change. I stand corrected.
| 440 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:23:05pm |
re: #435 Obdicut
With the very recent death of the miners in a non-union mine, this union bashing is fucking moronic.
no it isn’t…neglecting the costs of doing business with unions is moronic
| 441 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:24:30pm |
re: #414 reine.de.tout
LOL!
It’s funny, but it really doesn’t bother me at all when heads of state bow to the Queen of England. But the thing that really made me throw up was watching Arafish kissing other Arab leaders on the mouth.
Youtube Video
| 442 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:24:40pm |
Meanwhile, the Vatican is blaming it all on the homogayqueer.
/Waiting for researchclok to claim the teacher’s unions blame the gays more
What a pattern this is!
Charles makes a post about a thing.
Then! Someone, generally at odds with what Charles is saying, finds some way that a liberal thing is worse than the thing Charles is posting about, trying to derail the discussion about the thing Charles posted. For this post, it’s teacher’s unions. For something about Tea Party racism, it’s often Richard Wright. if it’s some nasty Republican racist rhetoric coming out of a politican, Byrd gets brought up.
Ahh politics. As predictable as the sun setting.
| 443 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:24:41pm |
The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world at 754 persons in prison or jail per 100,000 (as of 2008).[3] A report released Feb. 28, 2008 indicates that more than 1 in 100 adults in the United States are in prison. The United States has less than 5% of the world’s population[ and 23.4% of the world’s prison population.
| 444 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:24:44pm |
I have to scratch my head in wonderment when people link to Dr. Fucking Evil to try to prove a point…
As of May 2009, Berman was the sole owner and executive director of Berman and Company, a for-profit management firm that ran fifteen corporate-funded groups. He held at least sixteen positions within these interlocking organizations. [10]Organizations controlled by Berman include:
* The Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF), originally named the Guest Choice Network (GCN). CCF serves as an advocate for restaurants, meat, dairy, food processors, and alcohol. The group was formed in 1995 with funding from tobacco giant Phillip Morris.[11][12]
* The American Beverage Institute (ABI), which fights against laws increasingly designed to criminalize alcohol consumption, including the push to further raise existing blood-alcohol arrest thresholds.[13]
* The Employment Policies Institute (EPI), which is opposed to raising the minimum wage, particularly in the labor-intensive restaurant industry.[13] It points to academic studies alleging that increases in the minimum wage lead to job losses, particularly among the poor and uneducated.[13] During an interview on the Rachel Maddow show Berman claimed the minimum wage was $50,000 per year, a blatant lie as the maximum possible yearly pay (using Washington state’s $8.55/hour) for a standard 40 hour workweek is $17,784 *before* taxes.
* The Center for Union Facts (CUF), which argues that unions are corrupt and bad for workers.[5] They have run full-page ads in major print media outlets (New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and The Washington Post) blaming trade unions for the bankruptcies of American industries. The CUF website purports that it is the largest online database of labor-union reporting on salaries, budgets, and political spending. Recently, they have produced TV ads alleging intimidation by trade unions.[13] CUF is a non-profit; 2007 federal tax returns showed revenues of $2.5 million, with $840,000 being paid to Berman and Company for management services.[10]
You know what ? That’s just the tip of the iceberg for that political operative.
| 445 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:24:55pm |
re: #421 WindUpBird
The reports do not assert what you claim they assert, and to bring them to the level of the institutional coverup of abuse in the Catholic church is
DUMBFUCKED
Capiche?
You seem slightly obsessed here.
Here is the Education department link
Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature
See this as well.
| 446 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:24:56pm |
re: #435 Obdicut
With the very recent death of the miners in a non-union mine, this union bashing is fucking moronic.
Atlas Shrugged, Communism, etc!
seriously GTF over it already.
| 447 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:25:30pm |
re: #439 Dark_Falcon
That I did not know. I didn’t think they took well to such a change. I stand corrected.
It probably helps that there difference between a domesticated cat and a feral cat isn’t as big a leap as the one between a domesticated dog and a feral dog….
No cat is ever truly domesticated they just convince their humans to serve them…
| 448 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:25:39pm |
re: #439 Dark_Falcon
That I did not know. I didn’t think they took well to such a change. I stand corrected.
It takes quite a bit of time and patience, and you cannot force them, you just have to show them you are no threat.
We had a feral cat that would finally come sit on the Roi’s lap (but only his lap). But it took a couple of years for her to trust him to that extent. That was the sweetest, least demanding cat I’ve ever known.
| 450 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:25:41pm |
re: #429 marjoriemoon
I’ve had a lot of feral cats. Feed em, house them. They adjust. Some better than others.
Indeed.
| 451 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:26:25pm |
| 452 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:26:29pm |
Hey wub, if you’re still here, could I resend you those images to resize as icons? I’m bored of the one I have >>
| 453 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:26:30pm |
California prison growth:
There are many explanations for the prison growth. One is the perceived drug epidemic in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and the presumed consequent threat to public safety. Building more prisons counters this threat with supposed stability. Another explanation is that, during this period, prison sentences increased and minimum sentencing gave lesser crimes longer jail terms. Moreover, unemployment led many citizens to commit property-related crimes, although, ironically, California has a relatively low rate of property crime occurrence compared to other states. In response to the perceived increasing crime rate, the citizens of California passed the Three Strikes Law, stipulating a minimum sentence for those who were convicted of three felonies. Government officials, policy advisers and the media tied the public concern over crime to the need for more prisons. The overall perception of the relationship between crime and prison growth was: “crime went up, we cracked down, crime came down.”
Sounds to me like some lawmakers created a lot of “unfunded mandates” that led to the prison growth.
| 454 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:26:32pm |
re: #420 researchok
You need to read that Education department report. You’ll be stunned.
Stunned to find you’re making mountains out of molehills and distracting from the systemic mafeasance of the Catholic church with your false equivalency about teachers unions, a classic demon of the far right?
No, not stunned. See, you’re as predictable as a game of tic-tac-toe. You do this all the time.
| 455 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:26:50pm |
re: #426 Vambo
They have an agenda that you support, you mean.
That isn’t at all germane. The reality stays the same. There are problems in the public schools.
| 456 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:26:50pm |
re: #443 Gus 802
The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world at 754 persons in prison or jail per 100,000 (as of 2008).[3] A report released Feb. 28, 2008 indicates that more than 1 in 100 adults in the United States are in prison. The United States has less than 5% of the world’s population[ and 23.4% of the world’s prison population.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
/Take that China, and you call yourself a repressive communist state! Nobody locks people up the way we lock people, USA, USA, WHOSE NUMBER ONE? USA!
| 457 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:27:16pm |
re: #441 Spare O’Lake
It’s funny, but it really doesn’t bother me at all when heads of state bow to the Queen of England. But the thing that really made me throw up was watching Arafish kissing other Arab leaders on the mouth.
How did this pic grab you?
| 458 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:27:26pm |
Researchok, I’m looking at your link. Is the study the “Trust Betrayed” one at EdWeek?
| 459 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:27:54pm |
re: #443 Gus 802
The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world at 754 persons in prison or jail per 100,000 (as of 2008).[3] A report released Feb. 28, 2008 indicates that more than 1 in 100 adults in the United States are in prison. The United States has less than 5% of the world’s population[ and 23.4% of the world’s prison population.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
It’s not cheap!
460 |
HoosierHoops Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:28:04pm |
re: #435 Obdicut
With the very recent death of the miners in a non-union mine, this union bashing is fucking moronic.
There are pilot’s unions…Police unions..Teachers unions..
I was in a union building Nuclear Submarines at Mare Island for 20 years..
Why do people want to trash unions?
| 461 |
Croc-Wearing Authoritarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:28:18pm |
re: #425 marjoriemoon
I would be afraid it would get cold in the winter. Someone should adopt it.
You are going to think that I am Teh Weird, but I believe that kitteh is a gilgul (reincarnation) and that is why it hangs around that place.
462 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:28:24pm |
re: #443 Gus 802
The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world at 754 persons in prison or jail per 100,000 (as of 2008).[3] A report released Feb. 28, 2008 indicates that more than 1 in 100 adults in the United States are in prison. The United States has less than 5% of the world’s population[ and 23.4% of the world’s prison population.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
Just goes to show you we have the best law enforcement on the planet!
Evening lizards…………
| 463 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:28:25pm |
Yep, it’s all the unions fault //:
Some unusual scenarios have arisen, particularly in California — the state punishes shoplifting and similar crimes involving under $400 in property as felony petty theft if the person who committed the crime has a prior conviction for any form of theft, including robbery or burglary. As a result, some defendants have been given sentences of 25 years to life in prison for such crimes as shoplifting golf clubs (Gary Ewing, previous strikes for burglary and robbery with a knife), nine videotapes (Leandro Andrade, received double sentence of 25 year-to-life for 2 counts of shoplifting), or, along with a violent assault, a slice of pepperoni pizza from a group of children (Jerry Dewayne Williams, four previous non-violent felonies, sentence later reduced to six years). In Rummel v. Estelle (1980), the Supreme Court upheld life with possible parole for a third-strike fraud felony in Texas, which arose from a refusal to repay $120.75 paid for air conditioning repair which was subsequently considered unsatisfactory.[10] Rummel was released a few months later, after pleading guilty.
| 464 |
What, me worry? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:28:43pm |
re: #438 SanFranciscoZionist
Cats are remarkably good at taking care of themselves in cold climates, but it would be nice if it could be encouraged to spend some time indoors. Perhaps a cat door could be installed at one of the visitor’s buildings?
Getting a feral to become a housecat isn’t always easy. My mother’s office had a feral cat attached to it for years. They finally convinced her to come JUST inside and eat, toward the end of her life, but it wasn’t easy.
I can always catch a feral cat :) If I can’t get em, they can’t be got!
This one looks like he’s familiar with people enough not to run away. But if they wanted to keep him there, they should provide a bed or make a house. I suspect it gets pretty cold in the winter and he shouldn’t be outside in below freezing.
| 465 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:28:47pm |
re: #445 researchok
You seem slightly obsessed here.
Here is the Education department link
Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature
See this as well.
hahaha weak sauce pal, I’ve put more effort into forum exchanges about Star Trek:TNG episodes than this. You wish I cared so much about your silliness.
Keep on trying to derail and distract. Loving the show.
| 466 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:28:51pm |
re: #454 WindUpBird
Stunned to find you’re making mountains out of molehills and distracting from the systemic mafeasance of the Catholic church with your false equivalency about teachers unions, a classic demon of the far right?
No, not stunned. See, you’re as predictable as a game of tic-tac-toe. You do this all the time.
Making mountains out of molehills? Have you done the math?
If you have evidence to the contrary, present it. Just because you don’t agree with me doesn’t make the facts go away.
| 467 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:28:52pm |
re: #455 researchok
There are problems in the public schools.
Agreed. What this has to do with decades of systematic protection of sex offenders is still only known to you.
| 468 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:29:12pm |
re: #445 researchok
Sorry doesn’t pass the Teacher’s Union test, and it’s not institutionalized for two centuries world wide, that’s the school board, not the teacher’s union ….
469 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:29:24pm |
re: #457 bratwurst
How did this pic grab you?
That’s actually a photoshop (and a bad one), but Bush did hold hands and kiss the Saudi Prince (they even called him “Bandar Bush” as the Saudi royals had such a close relationship with the Bushes).
| 470 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:29:27pm |
re: #459 SanFranciscoZionist
It’s not cheap!
Yeah. Maybe we can call it the No Criminal Left Behind mandate.
/Life sentence for stealing golf clubs.
/
| 471 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:29:29pm |
re: #453 Gus 802
California prison growth:
There are many explanations for the prison growth. One is the perceived drug epidemic in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and the presumed consequent threat to public safety. Building more prisons counters this threat with supposed stability. Another explanation is that, during this period, prison sentences increased and minimum sentencing gave lesser crimes longer jail terms. Moreover, unemployment led many citizens to commit property-related crimes, although, ironically, California has a relatively low rate of property crime occurrence compared to other states. In response to the perceived increasing crime rate, the citizens of California passed the Three Strikes Law, stipulating a minimum sentence for those who were convicted of three felonies. Government officials, policy advisers and the media tied the public concern over crime to the need for more prisons. The overall perception of the relationship between crime and prison growth was: “crime went up, we cracked down, crime came down.”
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
Sounds to me like some lawmakers created a lot of “unfunded mandates” that led to the prison growth.
they are attempting to cut loose cons that don’t really deserve to be tied up in the system and CA deserves credit for that….good call
| 472 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:29:55pm |
re: #462 NJDhockeyfan
Just goes to show you we have the best law enforcement on the planet!
more people in jail = better law enforcement?
no wonder we’re in debt.
| 473 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:30:20pm |
re: #458 SanFranciscoZionist
Researchok, I’m looking at your link. Is the study the “Trust Betrayed” one at EdWeek?
No, it is the Education Department report, here.
Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature
| 474 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:30:44pm |
re: #455 researchok
That isn’t at all germane. The reality stays the same. There are problems in the public schools.
Yes there are.
They aren’t as bad as the ones in the catholic church however.
Can we move on and talk about this in a more relevant late night anything goes thread?
If you want to convince me they are as bad I’ll need some proof that whoever is the head of the teachers Union Personally at one point demanded that they stop looking into the matter of a teacher who had been sexually abusing deaf children….
| 475 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:30:52pm |
re: #452 windsagio
Hey wub, if you’re still here, could I resend you those images to resize as icons? I’m bored of the one I have >>
Send ‘em to my gmail!
| 476 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:31:19pm |
re: #467 bratwurst
Agreed. What this has to do with decades of systematic protection of sex offenders is still only known to you.
What matters is he’s trying to get the subject OFF church abuse.
477 |
Bagua Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:31:33pm |
We need a Statute of Limitations on Papal Immunity.
| 478 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:31:46pm |
re: #249 ~Fianna
Well sneaking a look through Dad’s Playboy is a whole ‘nother matter as compared to the web.
| 479 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:31:59pm |
re: #469 darthstar
That’s actually a photoshop (and a bad one), but Bush did hold hands and kiss the Saudi Prince (they even called him “Bandar Bush” as the Saudi royals had such a close relationship with the Bushes).
You are exactly right. My bad…here is the only slightly less dramatic real deal:
| 480 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:32:16pm |
481 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:32:31pm |
re: #443 Gus 802
The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world at 754 persons in prison or jail per 100,000 (as of 2008).[3] A report released Feb. 28, 2008 indicates that more than 1 in 100 adults in the United States are in prison. The United States has less than 5% of the world’s population[ and 23.4% of the world’s prison population.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
Subtract all the non-violent drug offenders whose only reason for being there is having had the bad luck to get caught with today’s equivalent of bootleg whiskey, and that number would instantly drop by at least half.
But we’re all about punishment in this land.
| 482 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:32:38pm |
re: #470 Gus 802
Yeah. Maybe we can call it the No Criminal Left Behind mandate.
/Life sentence for stealing golf clubs.
/
Life sentence for being an idiot. Well, that and the other two felonies. Not saying I agree with it. But seriously, if you got 2 freaking felonies, you may want to walk a straight line.
| 484 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:32:46pm |
re: #445 researchok
You seem slightly obsessed here.
Here is the Education department link
Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature
See this as well.
OK, that second link is the first thing that comes close to what you’ve been talking about.
I’m curious as to why criminal charges are not being filed in these cases, and to whether this concern about lawsuits is real or an excuse for not stepping up to the plate. Interesting situation. Sounds like the administrators have managed to screw things up pretty thoroughly.
| 485 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:32:53pm |
public schools are a black hole of sex, drugs and rock and roll these days….just like 40 years ago when I was there
| 486 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:33:07pm |
re: #457 bratwurst
How did this pic grab you?
That’s one of my faves…the oil-whore “where’s my cheque” kiss.
| 487 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:33:13pm |
| 488 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:33:28pm |
re: #485 albusteve
public schools are a black hole of sex, drugs and rock and roll these days…just like 40 years ago when I was there
HELLS YES!!!
| 489 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:34:09pm |
re: #481 Cato the Elder
Subtract all the non-violent drug offenders whose only reason for being there is having had the bad luck to get caught with today’s equivalent of bootleg whiskey, and that number would instantly drop by at least half.
But we’re all about punishment in this land.
evil weed, will tear your soul apart
we’ll save you from yourself…
| 490 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:34:36pm |
re: #455 researchok
That isn’t at all germane. The reality stays the same. There are problems in the public schools.
Did anyone say there weren’t? That doesn’t change the fact that you’re throwing in everything but the kitchen sink, apparently trying to make it seem as though teacher tenure is the same as the Church sheltering pedophiles from the law for decades.
| 491 |
Bagua Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:34:41pm |
re: #485 albusteve
public schools are a black hole of sex, drugs and rock and roll these days…just like 40 years ago when I was there
Yep, the good old days.
| 492 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:34:51pm |
re: #463 Gus 802
Yep, it’s all the unions fault //:
The problem is that 3-Strikes was passed for a good reason: To keep leftist judges from letting crooks go with a slap on the wrist. Given that the judge problem hasn’t been solved, I’d say its better to be too harsh rather than too lax. Ah heck let’s be honest; I always say that.
| 494 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:35:15pm |
| 495 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:35:15pm |
re: #489 albusteve
evil weed, will tear your soul apart
we’ll save you from yourself…
Yeah, put me in jail where all I can get is crank and coke!
| 496 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:35:29pm |
| 497 |
swamprat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:35:29pm |
re: #460 HoosierHoops
There are pilot’s unions…Police unions..Teachers unions..
I was in a union building Nuclear Submarines at Mare Island for 20 years..
Why do people want to trash unions?
Because of the unions that go overboard; the unions that are protection rackets in reality. The trouble with that sterotype is that in real life, unions that do this, soon go out of business. A parasite that over-drains a host soon has no host to drain.
| 498 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:35:30pm |
re: #458 SanFranciscoZionist
Researchok, I’m looking at your link. Is the study the “Trust Betrayed” one at EdWeek?
No, I think I found the study. Will take more reading than I have time for now.
The articles at EdWeek seem excellent, but one again, do not seem to argue for a systemic cover-up problem.
| 499 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:35:57pm |
re: #468 Thanos
Sorry doesn’t pass the Teacher’s Union test, and it’s not institutionalized for two centuries world wide, that’s the school board, not the teacher’s union …
I didn’t claim the problem was two centuries old! My point is that the problem exists and has to be dealt with.
The church has more profound institutional problems because their ‘vocation’ isn’t the equivalent of the teaching ‘vocation’.That is no small distinction.
All I’m saying is that the problem is real.
Given my line of work, I am fascinated with the level of vitriol in some of the conversations, though. That’s a whole other thing, identity politics.
| 500 |
Athens Runaway Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:35:59pm |
re: #492 Dark_Falcon
The problem is that 3-Strikes was passed for a good reason: To keep leftist judges from letting crooks go with a slap on the wrist. Given that the judge problem hasn’t been solved, I’d say its better to be too harsh rather than too lax. Ah heck let’s be honest; I always say that.
But that’s just you being monomaniacal.
Are you on acid?
/
| 501 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:36:05pm |
New Data on Tea Party Sympathizers
……a new multi-state poll of white voters conducted by the University of Washington’s Christopher Parker paint a more complicated picture. The survey asked white respondents about their attitudes toward the tea party movement—and their attitudes toward non-whites, immigrants and homosexuals.
| 502 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:36:08pm |
re: #483 Stanley Sea
I move fast. You should see how long I worked to make sure that all the images met the proper criteria >>
| 503 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:36:11pm |
re: #461 Alouette
You are going to think that I am Teh Weird, but I believe that kitteh is a gilgul (reincarnation) and that is why it hangs around that place.
Actually, that was one of the first things I thought of.
| 504 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:36:42pm |
re: #493 Vambo
And what if there was no crime, you moron? 25 years for shoplifting golf clubs? You’re aware those sociopathic club-napping menaces are sleeping on the tax payers dime, no?
Should we let criminals off for light crimes?
| 505 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:36:45pm |
| 506 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:36:52pm |
re: #482 Racer X
Life sentence for being an idiot. Well, that and the other two felonies. Not saying I agree with it. But seriously, if you got 2 freaking felonies, you may want to walk a straight line.
or what?…that’s the question
become a ward of the court and pick lettuce
| 507 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:37:20pm |
re: #481 Cato the Elder
Subtract all the non-violent drug offenders whose only reason for being there is having had the bad luck to get caught with today’s equivalent of bootleg whiskey, and that number would instantly drop by at least half.
But we’re all about punishment in this land.
I agree & I don’t… there are far too many people in jail for non violent drug charges. That is true, but there also far too many lost souls doing really bad things because of the habit that some non violent drug dealers laid on them. I think that a case by case review is the way to go.
| 508 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:37:41pm |
re: #504 NJDhockeyfan
Should we let criminals off for light crimes?
Only if they’re, say, stockbrokers and committed their crimes in good faith.
| 509 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:37:44pm |
| 510 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:37:54pm |
Three Strikes
Penal Overkill In California?
California’s three-strikes law says that if someone commits a third felony after committing two prior similar felonies, then the sentence is a mandatory 25 years to life.
In such a case, Leandro Andrade was given not one but two sentences of 25 years-to-life for stealing nine children’s videotapes, including “Snow White,” “Cinderella” and “Free Willie 2.”
The tapes were worth $153.54, and lawyers for the state of California argue that the penalty is both correct and constitutional. But the other side argues that Andrade’s punishment is cruel and unusual. Correspondent Dan Rather reports.
“I’m not a killer. I’m not a rapist. I’m really not a bad person once you get to know me,” says Leandro Andrade, a 44-year-old convict who may make legal history. “Do I deserve to be locked up for the rest of my life, because a certain judge feels that’s what he deserves?”
Under his sentence, Andrade will be 87 before being eligible for parole.
Andrade got the 25 years doubled for two cases of shoplifting, which became his third and fourth strikes under California’s law. His first two strikes were for home burglaries that were committed back in 1983. Neither involved violence. In fact, Andrade didn’t carry a weapon with him for either burglary.
| 511 |
Bagua Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:38:05pm |
re: #494 albusteve
2000 yrs seems appropriate
Well that would save the current Pope, perhaps… or would it?
| 512 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:38:28pm |
re: #495 Cato the Elder
Yeah, put me in jail where all I can get is crank and coke!
and a hospitality shiv in your neck
| 513 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:38:54pm |
re: #485 albusteve
public schools are a black hole of sex, drugs and rock and roll these days…just like 40 years ago when I was there
I was so out of the loop of the first two (NERRDS) but we must have at at least 25 different garage bands in my school the three years I was there… I was in four of them!
| 514 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:39:39pm |
re: #437 freetoken
Yes. That’s one example.
California has fucked itself upwards, sideways, and behind the woodshed, and it is not easily characterized to fit partisan agendas. Plenty of blame to go around. No philosophy, no style of government is to blame.
| 515 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:39:42pm |
re: #504 NJDhockeyfan
Should we let criminals off for light crimes?
Drug use does not have to be a crime.
| 516 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:39:58pm |
re: #506 albusteve
or what?…that’s the question
become a ward of the court and pick lettuce
I’m in favor of putting people to work instead of putting them in prison. Give them a choice - low paying job picking lettuce? Or five years in the slammer. Pick one.
| 517 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:40:05pm |
SFZ, see this re the Portland, Oregon school system. I don’t know if it’s like that where you are, but it is troubling.
Schools cut secret deals with abusive teachers
See this as well:
Teacher sex cases in U. S. public schools unreported, unpunished
It is hard to get a real in depth picture. I suspect mor estudies (state level?) will have to be done.
| 518 |
Tiny alien kittens are watching you Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:40:15pm |
re: #485 albusteve
public schools are a black hole of sex, drugs and rock and roll these days…just like 40 years ago when I was there
That is only because they have set up the “separation of Church and State” forcefields all around the schools and kicked God out, God is completely powerless to enter any modern school! We need to make the Jewish kids pray to our Christian god every morning before class, that will give him enough Gi power to break through the forcefield and save the earth from being consumed by the giant cockroaches!
/Ok, maybe I just have been watching too much anime lately…
| 519 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:40:29pm |
re: #504 NJDhockeyfan
Should we let criminals off for light crimes?
decriminalize reefer manufacturing, possession and use….start there
| 520 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:40:45pm |
re: #514 Obdicut
Yes. That’s one example.
California has fucked itself upwards, sideways, and behind the woodshed, and it is not easily characterized to fit partisan agendas. Plenty of blame to go around. No philosophy, no style of government is to blame.
Or maybe the fact that they have no philosophy is to blame, as in they do everything ad hoc based on the emotions of the hour.
| 521 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:40:51pm |
re: #495 Cato the Elder
Yeah, put me in jail where all I can get is crank and coke!
And bunk with someone who regularly checks you for hemorrhoids without using their hands.
| 522 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:41:01pm |
re: #514 Obdicut
Yes. That’s one example.
California has fucked itself upwards, sideways, and behind the woodshed, and it is not easily characterized to fit partisan agendas. Plenty of blame to go around. No philosophy, no style of government is to blame.
Hell yes!
Every administration for the last 30 years has a piece of that pie.
| 523 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:41:12pm |
re: #466 researchok
Making mountains out of molehills? Have you done the math?
If you have evidence to the contrary, present it. Just because you don’t agree with me doesn’t make the facts go away.
hahaha HAVE YOU DONE THE MATH
So in addition to dispensing talking points, you also dispense cliches?
| 524 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:41:17pm |
re: #515 Decatur Deb
Drug use does not have to be a crime.
Yeah personally if you ask me we should probably think about doing away with most co-sensual crimes on the books…
Says the catnip smoking liberal hippie college student…
| 525 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:41:33pm |
re: #499 researchok
Bullshit, you intend to just distract from conservative church offenders in the church who have institutionalized the persistent buggery of children to the supposedly more liberal Teacher’s union — your words, not mine. You are doing it to turn the discussion of this from conservatives who look bad to instead try to make a liberal institution look bad.
Please show me where the NEA has an institutionalized policy of covering up child sexual abuse, or protecting the transgressors after they are found guilty.
You’ve shown me responses from school boards, and school boards are NOT == the NEA
526 |
astronmr20 Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:41:40pm |
Actually, stop the presses.
Obama just bowed to Hu Jintao, the leader of communist China.
Attack!
/
| 527 |
freetoken Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:41:41pm |
re: #510 Gus 802
There is no end of absurdities when one applies “blind” “justice”. We’re a vengeful society.
| 528 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:41:43pm |
| 529 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:41:43pm |
re: #504 NJDhockeyfan
Should we let criminals off for light crimes?
No we shouldn’t. You might prefer the Islamofascist brand of justice though - if we can’t cut off peoples’ hands for stealing, 25 years for shoplifting is a good idea. 50 years for DUI’s, the death penalty for drug dealers, etc.
Don’t worry, though, Catholic priests will still get a slap on the wrist - one slap for every raped child.
| 530 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:41:48pm |
re: #516 Racer X
I’m in favor of putting people to work instead of putting them in prison. Give them a choice - low paying job picking lettuce? Or five years in the slammer. Pick one.
That’s a choice?
| 531 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:42:06pm |
re: #504 NJDhockeyfan
Should we let criminals off for light crimes?
There are people in jail for years for non-hard drug possession.
For conservatives who are suspicious about the government, it always seems to stop at the door of a prison…
| 532 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:42:35pm |
re: #531 WindUpBird
Nobody goes to jail unless they deserve it!
Or are poor, but I suppose that’s the same thing >>
| 533 |
Randall Gross Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:42:36pm |
re: #499 researchok
Oh, and bs on your identity politics.
| 534 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:42:36pm |
re: #492 Dark_Falcon
Oh give me a fucking break. “leftist judges” are not the problem. The law was passed at the behest, mainly, of the prison union, so they could make more fucking money.
It was sold as being because of ‘leftist judges’. It overtaxes our prisons, and means any criminal facing their third strike might as well carry a fucking gun with them on their next robbery since they’re not getting out of jail anyway.
It is a godawful system that is costing us billions and has nothing good to show for it.
| 535 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:42:39pm |
re: #515 Decatur Deb
Drug use does not have to be a crime.
But it is right now. I wish we could tell the police which laws we think we should obey and which one we shouldn’t. Unfortunately is doesn’t always work that way.
| 536 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:42:49pm |
re: #526 astronmr20
Actually, stop the presses.
Obama just bowed to Hu Jintao, the leader of communist China.
Attack!
/
No biggie - we owe them money.
| 537 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:43:25pm |
| 538 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:43:28pm |
re: #523 WindUpBird
hahaha HAVE YOU DONE THE MATH
So in addition to dispensing talking points, you also dispense cliches?
No, the report publishes all kinds of numbers. Clearly, you knew that.
| 539 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:43:49pm |
re: #530 Cato the Elder
That’s a choice?
If I’m dumb enough to commit 3 freaking felonies, yes it is a choice.
| 540 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:43:59pm |
re: #514 Obdicut
Yes. That’s one example.
California has fucked itself upwards, sideways, and behind the woodshed, and it is not easily characterized to fit partisan agendas. Plenty of blame to go around. No philosophy, no style of government is to blame.
Here’s another one:
Another unique California law, which dates from 1872, accounts for many of the three-strike cases regularly cited by opponents — prisoners serving life terms after stealing pizzas, bicycles, bottles of vitamins or videotapes, as in one of Wednesday’s cases.
The 131-year-old law converts petty theft, the shoplifting of less than $400 worth of goods, into a felony at the prosecutor’s request if the defendant has previously served time for a theft-related crime. Petty theft is normally a misdemeanor with a maximum term of six months in jail.
| 541 |
HoosierHoops Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:44:08pm |
re: #497 swamprat
Because of the unions that go overboard; the unions that are protection rackets in reality. The trouble with that sterotype is that in real life, unions that do this, soon go out of business. A parasite that over-drains a host soon has no host to drain.
I think 95% of all unions serve the members..And I have only met professionals when dealing with unions. That is my experience..
I suppose it serves the meme to caste Unions as nothing more that the Saprono’s in New Jersey putting a bullet in the back of your head cause you are cutting into Big Pussy’s trash hauling business..
I will admit..I have a few really funny stupid union stories that are funnier than hell…But who doesn’t?
| 542 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:44:24pm |
re: #528 bratwurst
[Video]
I thought you were gonna post a ‘Reefer Madness’ vid…I’m a Tosh fan, and all the rest of his homies
| 543 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:44:25pm |
re: #539 Racer X
If I’m dumb enough to commit 3 freaking felonies, yes it is a choice.
If you’re dumb enough to like weed and buy it three times?
| 544 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:45:28pm |
re: #535 NJDhockeyfan
But it is right now. I wish we could tell the police which laws we think we should obey and which one we shouldn’t. Unfortunately is doesn’t always work that way.
If we take drug-related crime out of the system, and into the medical system where we often pretend it belongs, the cop/judge/lawyer/corrections industry gets a lot cheaper.
| 545 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:45:33pm |
re: #543 Cato the Elder
If you’re dumb enough to like weed and buy it three times?
Who said anything about buying, why not grow your own, that way your money doesn’t end up funding terrorists like that PSA warned me about!
| 546 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:45:55pm |
re: #543 Cato the Elder
If you’re dumb enough to like weed and buy it three times?
Heh.
No, get caught buying it 3 times. And I don’t think buying weed is a felony.
| 547 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:46:17pm |
re: #539 Racer X
If I’m dumb enough to commit 3 freaking felonies, yes it is a choice.
stealing golf clubs should not be a felony….I don’t care if they are solid gold
| 548 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:46:20pm |
re: #466 researchok
Making mountains out of molehills? Have you done the math?
If you have evidence to the contrary, present it. Just because you don’t agree with me doesn’t make the facts go away.
I’m working on the math. Make my life easier, give me a ballpark estimate of how many students we’re talking about here. The MSNBC survey was talking about 2,500 cases over 5 years. Obviously, that’s what they found, not what there is. Do we have a solid number from the study?
549 |
AntonSirius Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:46:20pm |
Just checking to see how the icon I uploaded looks…
| 550 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:46:30pm |
re: #531 WindUpBird
There are people in jail for years for non-hard drug possession.
For conservatives who are suspicious about the government, it always seems to stop at the door of a prison…
Some of us are conservative not because we are suspicious of the government, but because we’re concerned about where the “balance” is between how much we’re taxed and how many services will be provided.
I’ve always supported the provision of various sorts of services - but I suspect the line that I would call “balanced” for that sort of thing is much lower than the line you, perhaps, would feel provides the best balance.
As to public safety issues - I see that as one of the first priorities of any government. Good arguments can be made that laws are too harsh or not harsh enough - but public safety issues should always be up near the top in importance. If we’re not safe enough to get to work, how are we gonna earn taxable income to provide the other stuff?
| 551 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:46:44pm |
and doesn’t one strike have to be a violent crime?
| 553 |
Wozza Matter? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:46:45pm |
re: #544 Decatur Deb
the war on drugs created that industry :p
| 554 |
Croc-Wearing Authoritarian Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:46:56pm |
re: #543 Cato the Elder
If you’re dumb enough to like weed and buy it three times?
Get a freaking prescription.
| 555 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:48:11pm |
re: #542 albusteve
I have always loved Tosh just a bit more than the rest of his generation of Jamaican giants. He literally took his lumps for his point of view.
| 556 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:48:17pm |
re: #553 wozzablog
the war on drugs created that industry :p
/so what did the war on poverty create?
| 557 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:48:17pm |
re: #546 Racer X
Heh.
No, get caught buying it 3 times. And I don’t think buying weed is a felony.
not small amts to get a buzz….buying a freighter of pot is a felony
| 558 |
Wozza Matter? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:48:17pm |
| 559 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:48:20pm |
re: #534 Obdicut
Oh give me a fucking break. “leftist judges” are not the problem. The law was passed at the behest, mainly, of the prison union, so they could make more fucking money.
It was sold as being because of ‘leftist judges’. It overtaxes our prisons, and means any criminal facing their third strike might as well carry a fucking gun with them on their next robbery since they’re not getting out of jail anyway.
It is a godawful system that is costing us billions and has nothing good to show for it.
I’m with you on most of that, but I can’t believe the corrections personnel need or want more violent cases in their overcrowded care. My daughter is a teacher behind the wire, and she sure as hell doesn’t.
| 560 |
Bagua Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:48:31pm |
re: #519 albusteve
decriminalize reefer manufacturing, possession and use…start there
| 561 |
HoosierHoops Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:48:31pm |
re: #549 AntonSirius
Just checking to see how the icon I uploaded looks…
Looks good..
/You sicko!
*wink*
| 563 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:48:55pm |
re: #544 Decatur Deb
If we take drug-related crime out of the system, and into the medical system where we often pretend it belongs, the cop/judge/lawyer/corrections industry gets a lot cheaper.
Hey, I’m all for legalizing weed….just weed, not the hard stuff. I wish I could keep a bag and smoke it whenever I want but I don’t want to take the chance of getting caught, getting arrested, maybe doing time, getting fired from my job, maybe losing my wife & kids. It’s not worth it. I’ll just do without until the laws change.
| 564 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:49:09pm |
re: #534 Obdicut
Oh give me a fucking break. “leftist judges” are not the problem. The law was passed at the behest, mainly, of the prison union, so they could make more fucking money.
It was sold as being because of ‘leftist judges’. It overtaxes our prisons, and means any criminal facing their third strike might as well carry a fucking gun with them on their next robbery since they’re not getting out of jail anyway.
It is a godawful system that is costing us billions and has nothing good to show for it.
Then I will ask you: What sort of sentencing regime would you favor? Please provide a model of one that would keep the serious criminals locked up to ensure they do not reoffend.
| 565 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:49:10pm |
re: #485 albusteve
public schools are a black hole of sex, drugs and rock and roll these days…just like 40 years ago when I was there
Only the nerdy kids like rock these days.
| 566 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:49:43pm |
re: #554 Alouette
Get a freaking prescription.
I don’t need a prescription for booze or cigarettes, both of which will kill me quicker, and you, if I’m behind the wheel drunk or having a coughing fit.
Pot should be legal. One in two legislators agree, to judge by their actions.
| 567 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:49:51pm |
OK, so 3 strikes for stealing kids videos and golf clubs is dumb.
What should the criteria be? How fucking stupid should your ass be for you to be locked up for a long time?
1 violent attack? 2? 3?
2 burglaries? 7? 15?
1 rape? 2? 3?
| 568 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:50:05pm |
re: #525 Thanos
Bullshit, you intend to just distract from conservative church offenders in the church who have institutionalized the persistent buggery of children to the supposedly more liberal Teacher’s union — your words, not mine. You are doing it to turn the discussion of this from conservatives who look bad to instead try to make a liberal institution look bad.
Please show me where the NEA has an institutionalized policy of covering up child sexual abuse, or protecting the transgressors after they are found guilty.
You’ve shown me responses from school boards, and school boards are NOT == the NEA
Like I said earlier, I have to dig that up. Nevertheless, school boards have longed worked the unions.
While it is true I’m right of center, I’ve never been an ideologue. I have no sympathy for the position taken by the catholic church when it comes to abuse- none. Just the opposite is true. I have no problem excoriating conservatives (I’ve been pretty clear on the TP debacle). Nor am I anti union, though I may take them to task from time to time.
That the NEA is liberal is not the point. That the NEA has failed miserably in it’s mandate is the problem.
| 569 |
Wozza Matter? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:50:06pm |
re: #556 brookly red
/so what did the war on poverty create?
food stamps………..
(curses the liberal progressive masses……………. oh, and LBJ)
| 570 |
Wozza Matter? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:50:37pm |
| 571 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:51:04pm |
re: #564 Dark_Falcon
Then I will ask you: What sort of sentencing regime would you favor? Please provide a model of one that would keep the serious criminals locked up to ensure they do not
reoffendharm society.
/fixed.
| 572 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:51:09pm |
| 573 |
~Fianna Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:51:37pm |
re: #478 Rightwingconspirator
Well sneaking a look through Dad’s Playboy is a whole ‘nother matter as compared to the web.
Lets just say that some of the parents around had some… exotic… tastes.
| 574 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:52:13pm |
re: #504 NJDhockeyfan
Should we let criminals off for light crimes?
It’s got to be one thing or the other, that’s the issue. Either the leftist judges let people go with suspended sentences because they cried in court about how they wanted to get their momma some golf clubs, OR California goes into the hole locking up every sorry moron who stole some golf clubs, and the Correctional Facilities union owns the governor’s ass.
I mean, we could try for a middle ground, but really, why bother?
/
| 575 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:52:30pm |
re: #569 wozzablog
food stamps…
(curses the liberal progressive masses… oh, and LBJ)
actually the use a charge card now…
| 577 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:52:45pm |
re: #572 Dark_Falcon
The dependent underclass.
As opposed to the independent underclass we had before.
| 578 |
Wozza Matter? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:52:50pm |
re: #572 Dark_Falcon
as opposed to the below the bread line dirt poor underclass?
| 579 |
AntonSirius Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:52:52pm |
re: #561 HoosierHoops
Looks good..
/You sicko!
*wink*
Hey now - I look nothing like a Michael Moore movie. Except for that time I was standing in line with Roger Ebert.
| 580 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:52:54pm |
re: #550 reine.de.tout
Some of us are conservative not because we are suspicious of the government, but because we’re concerned about where the “balance” is between how much we’re taxed and how many services will be provided.
I’ve always supported the provision of various sorts of services - but I suspect the line that I would call “balanced” for that sort of thing is much lower than the line you, perhaps, would feel provides the best balance.
As to public safety issues - I see that as one of the first priorities of any government. Good arguments can be made that laws are too harsh or not harsh enough - but public safety issues should always be up near the top in importance. If we’re not safe enough to get to work, how are we gonna earn taxable income to provide the other stuff?
I’m all for safety! I’m not all for power being more in the hands of prosecutors and arbitrary three-strikes laws than in the hands of judges. I tend to like a human hand in this stuff.
it’s just a talking point I see over and over again in the narrative: suspicious of the government, except when it comes to the power of prosecutors and law enforcement.
i think a lot of the issues in our criminal justice system would be solved if prosecutors were less political. Look how many prosecutors ride on a wave of convictions, to a career in politics. it’s a massive conflict of interest.
| 582 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:53:40pm |
re: #572 Dark_Falcon
The dependent underclass.
I think cons would prefer an incarcerated underclass.
| 583 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:53:53pm |
re: #555 bratwurst
I have always loved Tosh just a bit more than the rest of his generation of Jamaican giants. He literally took his lumps for his point of view.
it’s my understanding he was quite the firebrand, very confrontational…Kieth Richards had some bad experiences with him too…whatever, Jamaicans are very emotional people, those in the forefront of whatever part of their culture we’re talking about…music and politics, and often they are one in the same down there…I love them anyway
| 584 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:54:00pm |
re: #581 wozzablog
and all drive cadillacs…
/
Reagan’s welfare queens!
Then again, these days you can get a Cadillac for $500. Check craigslist 8-)
| 585 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:54:03pm |
re: #548 SanFranciscoZionist
I’m working on the math. Make my life easier, give me a ballpark estimate of how many students we’re talking about here. The MSNBC survey was talking about 2,500 cases over 5 years. Obviously, that’s what they found, not what there is. Do we have a solid number from the study?
Yes, if you extrapolate the numbers, you’re looking at about 100k kids. It gets fuzzy though because reporting differs from state to state and there are varying time frames.
Even if you assume the number is only half right (one can only hope), we’re still talking big numbers.
| 586 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:54:33pm |
re: #574 SanFranciscoZionist
Scapegoating is easier than thinking I know, but you have to try to overcome!!!
| 587 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:54:38pm |
re: #574 SanFranciscoZionist
It’s got to be one thing or the other, that’s the issue. Either the leftist judges let people go with suspended sentences because they cried in court about how they wanted to get their momma some golf clubs, OR California goes into the hole locking up every sorry moron who stole some golf clubs, and the Correctional Facilities union owns the governor’s ass.
I mean, we could try for a middle ground, but really, why bother?
/
I guess people forgot about that leftist governor Mike Huckabee.
/
| 588 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:54:55pm |
re: #559 Decatur Deb
I’m sorry, I must have miscommunciated. I don’t think they want more violent offenders, what I mean is that the corrections union, in general, supports more inmates, period— in this case, more nonviolent felony offenders entered the system. That some might third-strike cases might turn to violence where they hadn’t before since it doesn’t matter was overwhelmed by the number of nonviolent third offenders entering the system.
| 589 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:55:03pm |
| 590 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:55:07pm |
re: #554 Alouette
Get a freaking prescription.
no…that’s bending to the system and the system is wrong
| 591 |
Wozza Matter? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:55:10pm |
re: #584 WindUpBird
on which you need to spend $5,000 out of the gate……….
| 592 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:55:23pm |
re: #517 researchok
SFZ, see this re the Portland, Oregon school system. I don’t know if it’s like that where you are, but it is troubling.
Schools cut secret deals with abusive teachers
See this as well:
Teacher sex cases in U. S. public schools unreported, unpunished
It is hard to get a real in depth picture. I suspect mor estudies (state level?) will have to be done.
It may be hard to get an in-depth picture, indeed, which hasn’t stopped you from posting every article vaguely connected to this you could find, and then urging people to ‘do the math’.
And I work at a private Catholic school, where our last sex offender was turned over to the cops (just like at the public school I worked at). We are currently having our asses sued off by several parties, but unlike those candy-assed administrators in Oregon, we didn’t let that stop us from doing the right thing.
| 593 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:55:32pm |
re: #567 Racer X
OK, so 3 strikes for stealing kids videos and golf clubs is dumb.
What should the criteria be? How fucking stupid should your ass be for you to be locked up for a long time?
1 violent attack? 2? 3?
2 burglaries? 7? 15?
1 rape? 2? 3?
How about we just sentence people as they get convicted of crimes, and tack on some sentencing for recidivism?
| 594 |
Athens Runaway Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:56:03pm |
re: #582 Vambo
I think cons would prefer an incarcerated underclass.
I, for one, welcome our mass-incarcerating fascist-conservative overlords.
/
| 595 |
Wozza Matter? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:56:34pm |
| 596 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:56:36pm |
re: #593 WindUpBird
The subtext that judges are too stupid or liberal to actually make informed decisions really annoys me btw, why don’t we just go for sentence-vending machines?
| 597 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:56:36pm |
re: #589 brookly red
you said that not me…
You’d better be good, or I’m gonna take you out of the Lizard Song!
| 598 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:56:56pm |
re: #591 wozzablog
on which you need to spend $5,000 out of the gate…
hahaha who needs piston rings anyway? :D
| 599 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:57:13pm |
re: #538 researchok
No, the report publishes all kinds of numbers. Clearly, you knew that.
I would request that you give me some kind of number that you think represents the number of affected children, because that is a solid chunk of research there.
| 600 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:57:37pm |
re: #580 WindUpBird
I’m all for safety! I’m not all for power being more in the hands of prosecutors and arbitrary three-strikes laws than in the hands of judges. I tend to like a human hand in this stuff.
it’s just a talking point I see over and over again in the narrative: suspicious of the government, except when it comes to the power of prosecutors and law enforcement.
i think a lot of the issues in our criminal justice system would be solved if prosecutors were less political. Look how many prosecutors ride on a wave of convictions, to a career in politics. it’s a massive conflict of interest.
Your points are very reasonable.
But WUB - please don’t assume that “conservatives” in general are suspicious of all government except when it comes to the poer of prosecutors and law enforcement. Some (can you say “tea-party”) obviously are. Most I know are not.
Besides which, I know plenty of liberals who have their own suspicions about government, just different ones. It’s a matter of perspective
TU QUOQUE! I know, I know. I’ll shut up now.
| 601 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:57:42pm |
re: #596 windsagio
The subtext that judges are too stupid or liberal to actually make informed decisions really annoys me btw, why don’t we just go for sentence-vending machines?
Yeah, it pisses me off.
it’s a stupidass GOP talking point and it disrespects an honorable profession.
| 602 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:58:00pm |
re: #539 Racer X
If I’m dumb enough to commit 3 freaking felonies, yes it is a choice.
Well, OK, but like I keep sayin’, this business of locking everyone up is expensive.
We could deunionize the guards, I guess, but that might be…problematic.
| 603 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:58:04pm |
re: #594 Athens Runaway
I, for one, welcome our mass-incarcerating fascist-conservative overlords.
/
It’s fiscally conservative to incarcerate as many people as possible. /
| 604 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:58:51pm |
re: #588 Obdicut
I’m sorry, I must have miscommunciated. I don’t think they want more violent offenders, what I mean is that the corrections union, in general, supports more inmates, period— in this case, more nonviolent felony offenders entered the system. That some might third-strike cases might turn to violence where they hadn’t before since it doesn’t matter was overwhelmed by the number of nonviolent third offenders entering the system.
I’d have to do some digging, but I’ve seen wardens complain that a very large part of their population would belong in asylums, if we had asylums. The overcrowding in there now is what gets COs killed. Our state has been forced to export prisoners to Texas, for (their) profit.
| 605 |
Athens Runaway Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:58:59pm |
re: #603 Vambo
It’s fiscally conservative to incarcerate as many people as possible. /
What, I was sarcastically agreeing with you.
| 606 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:59:01pm |
re: #602 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, OK, but like I keep sayin’, this business of locking everyone up is expensive.
We could deunionize the guards, I guess, but that might be…problematic.
Union thugs?
| 607 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:59:01pm |
re: #601 WindUpBird
Yeah, it pisses me off.
it’s a stupidass GOP talking point and it disrespects an honorable profession.
really, I’m a huge fan of Roy Bean
| 608 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:59:04pm |
re: #600 reine.de.tout
Your points are very reasonable.
But WUB - please don’t assume that “conservatives” in general are suspicious of all government except when it comes to the poer of prosecutors and law enforcement. Some (can you say “tea-party”) obviously are. Most I know are not.
Besides which, I know plenty of liberals who have their own suspicions about government, just different ones. It’s a matter of perspective
TU QUOQUE! I know, I know. I’ll shut up now.
Suspicious was a loaded word, but the narrative I usually hear is that the government has too much power and should relinquish some of it. Isn’t that at the core of conservatism?
| 609 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:59:16pm |
re: #564 Dark_Falcon
I’ve already stated this a few times on LGF:
I don’t believe sentencing guidelines really matter. I do not think sentences are much of a deterrent, nor do I think capital punishment is. I do not think that much of anything is a deterrent; I don’t believe deterrence works, I believe rehabilitation of certain kinds can work.
I am in favor of keeping the prisons private, but paying them based on their recidivism rates of their ex-cons. This will encourage private industry to focus on solutions to recidivism, which will probably include some of the successful strategies we’ve already seen employed but with real funding behind it.
This way, instead of prisons having an incentive for more people to be arrested— and remember, we currently imprison a larger percentage of our population than any other nation on earth (though I’d say all of NK is a prison, really, but whatever)— they would have an incentive to help prisoners rehabilitate.
It’d have to have plenty of safeguards to make sure that no workarounds existed, but I think economically it would be cheaper for them to actually work on recidivism versus, say trying to bribe cops to let people go so they don’t mess up their stats.
| 610 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:59:28pm |
re: #597 Cato the Elder
You’d better be good, or I’m gonna take you out of the Lizard Song!
not too many words rhyme with lizard…
| 611 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:59:44pm |
re: #601 WindUpBird
That most of the people criticizing it wouldn’t qualify for.
Hmm, think that this is another application of Dunning-Kruger?
| 612 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:00:04pm |
re: #593 WindUpBird
How about we just sentence people as they get convicted of crimes, and tack on some sentencing for recidivism?
I’d be OK with that.
The intent is to provide incentive for people to NOT steal my shit, rape my girlfriend, or kill my boss. Punishing people after the fact won’t make their crime go away.
The punishment needs to be really harsh - and clearly 3 strikes is not working because some dumbass decided he really wanted to risk his freedom by stealing a couple golf clubs so he could sell them and buy crack.
| 614 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:00:22pm |
re: #605 Athens Runaway
What, I was sarcastically agreeing with you.
lolz. I couldn’t really tell. I’m dumb when I get all worked up.
| 615 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:00:40pm |
| 616 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:00:51pm |
re: #606 Cato the Elder
Union thugs?
/hey, who would pay those rates… you can get freelancers much cheaper.
| 617 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:00:51pm |
re: #541 HoosierHoops
I think 95% of all unions serve the members..And I have only met professionals when dealing with unions. That is my experience..
I suppose it serves the meme to caste Unions as nothing more that the Saprono’s in New Jersey putting a bullet in the back of your head cause you are cutting into Big Pussy’s trash hauling business..
I will admit..I have a few really funny stupid union stories that are funnier than hell…But who doesn’t?
I miss my old union rep. He was hilarious. Of course, the school I was teaching in was circling the drain at that point, and his main concern was making sure no one with tenure was actually killed by the administration. (They came closer than one might really expect in a nice suburban school.) But he was very kind, and when the crazed principal fired me, we had a lovely chat.
| 618 |
Athens Runaway Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:01:00pm |
re: #614 Vambo
lolz. I couldn’t really tell. I’m dumb when I get all worked up.
The / at the end might have been a tip-off.
| 619 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:01:17pm |
re: #567 Racer X
OK, so 3 strikes for stealing kids videos and golf clubs is dumb.
What should the criteria be? How fucking stupid should your ass be for you to be locked up for a long time?
1 violent attack? 2? 3?
2 burglaries? 7? 15?
1 rape? 2? 3?
I think the three strikes rule is primarily political.
Now if one says burglary that depends on if they carried a weapon or not. Firearm, knife, bat, etc. If they have no record of physically violent behavior then someone that commits a burglary unarmed would get a shorter sentence then one that was armed.
| 621 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:01:29pm |
re: #602 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, OK, but like I keep sayin’, this business of locking everyone up is expensive.
We could deunionize the guards, I guess, but that might be…problematic.
I agree - locking people up aint working.
| 622 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:01:40pm |
| 623 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:01:56pm |
re: #604 Decatur Deb
I may be behind the times on this one, I’ll freely admit. I had in-depth knowledge of it about eight years ago or so.
I had thought, at that time, that the union was seen as someone less-than-perfect in representing the desires of the actual face-to-face workers, as well.
But you bring up a very, very good point in that the lack of available treatment for a lot of the mentally ill causes a large problem for prisons, not just for the safety of the guards but for any chance of real rehabilitative work.
| 625 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:02:11pm |
re: #562 Spare O’Lake
What have they done with Lou Dobbs?
Who’s they, and why do we think something happened to Lou Dobbs?
Huh?
| 626 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:02:34pm |
re: #612 Racer X
Why would you conclude, after hitting the dead horse three times and getting no result, that what was needed was a heavier stick to hit him with for the fourth whack?
| 627 |
HoosierHoops Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:02:36pm |
re: #579 AntonSirius
Hey now - I look nothing like a Michael Moore movie. Except for that time I was standing in line with Roger Ebert.
Snicker..
I’m still in the clouds from meeting Dennis Miller Easter Night..I was I could snark in his style..But he knows to many big words..The Bastard!
Oh..He is short..Tom Cruise Short..I was surprised..
Very nice man…I never agreed with his politics..But man I wish I could cut like him..He has great wit…And as much as some peg him as the devil for being on Fox..He is a charming man…
/Well until his body guards drug me off the elevator..My Lawyer says I should keep my mouth shut..
//
| 628 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:02:47pm |
re: #622 jamesfirecat
Grafunkle and Oat’s time!
Hey, what are you smoking? You managed to misspell both names.
Hand it over.
| 629 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:03:02pm |
re: #615 Cato the Elder
No, but I found one for Brookly Red…
well I think we can find a lot more that rhyme with cato LOL
| 630 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:03:12pm |
re: #609 Obdicut
I am in favor of keeping the prisons private, but paying them based on their recidivism rates of their ex-cons. This will encourage private industry to focus on solutions to recidivism, which will probably include some of the successful strategies we’ve already seen employed but with real funding behind it.
I like this idea!
| 632 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:03:15pm |
re: #572 Dark_Falcon
The dependent underclass.
We used to have an independent underclass. They died on the streets without anyone having to help them.
| 633 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:03:35pm |
re: #609 Obdicut
I say we make the prisons a place you do not want to go to like it used to be. Take away the radios, TVs, etc. Give them a cell with a bunk and a toilet. Bring back the chain gangs.
| 634 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:03:41pm |
re: #597 Cato the Elder
You’d better be good, or I’m gonna take you out of the Lizard Song!
Can you find a place in the song for me? All that grilling I do in the song, I at least deserve to be named.
| 635 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:03:46pm |
re: #596 windsagio
why don’t we just go for sentence-vending machines?
Holy multi-billion dollar idea, Batman!
| 636 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:03:51pm |
re: #604 Decatur Deb
I’d have to do some digging, but I’ve seen wardens complain that a very large part of their population would belong in asylums, if we had asylums. The overcrowding in there now is what gets COs killed. Our state has been forced to export prisoners to Texas, for (their) profit.
America is…not so good at treating mental illness!
| 637 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:03:57pm |
re: #619 Gus 802
“Better hurry it up, I’m in dutch with the wife.”
| 638 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:04:02pm |
re: #592 SanFranciscoZionist
It may be hard to get an in-depth picture, indeed, which hasn’t stopped you from posting every article vaguely connected to this you could find, and then urging people to ‘do the math’.
And I work at a private Catholic school, where our last sex offender was turned over to the cops (just like at the public school I worked at). We are currently having our asses sued off by several parties, but unlike those candy-assed administrators in Oregon, we didn’t let that stop us from doing the right thing.
SFZ, my point isn’t to ‘divert attention’ from the CC. In fact, I’m all for hanging their sorry asses out to dry (the ones who knowingly covered up the abuse and hid the abusers).
All I wanted to do was draw attention to more victims who deserve equal protections.
I know my politics offends some here, but I really appreciate the civil exchanges. I’ve had my mind changed more than once and I’ve had my opinions reinforced. On some matters we agree and others we don’t. So what?
This isn’t personal and never has been.
For the most part, I read the comments here and don’t participate because I really dislike the vitriol. I shall probably go back to being an occasional mild commenter.
| 639 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:04:10pm |
| 640 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:04:13pm |
re: #608 WindUpBird
Suspicious was a loaded word, but the narrative I usually hear is that the government has too much power and should relinquish some of it. Isn’t that at the core of conservatism?
For me, it’s that there are certain things that government is obligated to provide its citizens that cannot be provided otherwise - public safety, military protection, etc.
Then there are those things that society decides are good things to provide to its citizenry, for the overall public good - welfare assistance, unemployment, etc etc.
It’s a fact that the more that government has to spend, the greater its sphere of influence. I used to see entire state agencies headed by elected officials add on programs, for no other reason than the additional employee count and the additional funding gave the agency head greater influence and power. I would actually see this even on a smaller scale, within an agency operations, a Division or unit would try to gather to itself greater responsibility, not necessarily critically needed programs, resulting in more employees, more funding, and by extension, greater influence and power for the head of that Division or work unit. We called it “kingdom building”, and that’s what I’m against.
| 641 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:04:36pm |
re: #569 wozzablog
food stamps…
(curses the liberal progressive masses… oh, and LBJ)
“Do you realize that you can’t buy a live goat with food stamps in this country?”
(Chilling indictment of America, overheard by one of my professors in her eight-grade classroom.)
| 642 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:04:47pm |
| 643 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:05:03pm |
re: #634 Dark_Falcon
Can you find a place in the song for me? All that grilling I do in the song, I at least deserve to be named.
huh?…are you serious?
| 644 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:05:08pm |
re: #629 brookly red
well I think we can find a lot more that rhyme with cato LOL
Apparently, you aren’t aware that I’m not kidding.
You’re going to be on the back cover of the LGF cookbook!
Stanza six of nine:
Walter, Weasel, Brookly Red
And Killgore pile the kindling on.
The flames leap up! The theadbare thread
Becomes a thing to think upon.
| 645 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:05:11pm |
re: #626 Obdicut
Why would you conclude, after hitting the dead horse three times and getting no result, that what was needed was a heavier stick to hit him with for the fourth whack?
I wouldn’t.
| 646 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:05:30pm |
re: #633 NJDhockeyfan
I say we make the prisons a place you do not want to go to like it used to be. Take away the radios, TVs, etc. Give them a cell with a bunk and a toilet. Bring back the chain gangs.
And have riots on your hands from boredom.
Nope.
| 647 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:05:52pm |
re: #611 windsagio
That most of the people criticizing it wouldn’t qualify for.
Hmm, think that this is another application of Dunning-Kruger?
maybe!
it’s like the dipshit meme you always hear about about HOW COULD A LAWYER EVER REPRESENT A RAPIST WITH A CLEAR COSNCIENCE?!?!?!
I just…there are not enough facepalms for that.
| 649 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:06:25pm |
re: #641 SanFranciscoZionist
“Do you realize that you can’t buy a live goat with food stamps in this country?”
(Chilling indictment of America, overheard by one of my professors in her eight-grade classroom.)
I also heard they won’t take them as cash at the Porsche dealership.
Fascists! :D
| 651 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:06:35pm |
re: #644 Cato the Elder
Apparently, you aren’t aware that I’m not kidding.
You’re going to be on the back cover of the LGF cookbook!
Stanza six of nine:
Walter, Weasel, Brookly Red
And Killgore pile the kindling on.
The flames leap up! The theadbare thread
Becomes a thing to think upon.
don’t quit yer day job…
| 652 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:07:03pm |
re: #633 NJDhockeyfan
I say we make the prisons a place you do not want to go to like it used to be. Take away the radios, TVs, etc. Give them a cell with a bunk and a toilet. Bring back the chain gangs.
That’ll bring back the dead prison guards as well!
| 653 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:07:12pm |
re: #645 Racer X
Then go with my idea, not the harsher punishment idea. Though you’ll/we’ll have to fight the prison unions to get it done.
I’ve actually started to write this up as an actual proposal to see if I can get any politician to like it. It means bucking the prison union, which means that I’ll have to find a progressive to support it, but they’re not going to like the ‘keep them private’ part much.
I have no clue how the unions would like it.
| 654 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:07:25pm |
re: #633 NJDhockeyfan
I say we make the prisons a place you do not want to go to like it used to be. Take away the radios, TVs, etc. Give them a cell with a bunk and a toilet. Bring back the chain gangs.
That doesn’t sound very productive. They should at least go back to making license plates or something.
| 655 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:07:45pm |
re: #634 Dark_Falcon
Can you find a place in the song for me? All that grilling I do in the song, I at least deserve to be named.
There was limited space.
But never fear. When I get done with my current translation job, I’m going to start working on the Lizardiad in one hundred full-length cantos, à la Dante, Camões, and Pound.
You’ll probably get your own canto.
| 656 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:07:57pm |
| 657 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:07:58pm |
re: #649 WindUpBird
I also heard they won’t take them as cash at the Porsche dealership.
Fascists! :D
no that is a misunderstanding… several payments of under 10K each are just fine…
| 658 |
Racer X Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:08:26pm |
re: #653 Obdicut
Then go with my idea, not the harsher punishment idea. Though you’ll/we’ll have to fight the prison unions to get it done.
I’ve actually started to write this up as an actual proposal to see if I can get any politician to like it. It means bucking the prison union, which means that I’ll have to find a progressive to support it, but they’re not going to like the ‘keep them private’ part much.
I have no clue how the unions would like it.
IMHO unions don’t embrace ‘pay for performance’ too well.
| 659 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:08:45pm |
re: #638 researchok
I know my politics offends some here
This is where you are in outer space. The friction you are receiving here on this has MUCH less to do with politics than it does with a perceived false equivalency.
| 661 |
Wozza Matter? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:08:58pm |
re: #632 SanFranciscoZionist
We used to have an independent underclass. They died on the streets without anyone having to help them.
A government that doesn’t give two shits about people with no hope of a job, no money to buy food or schooling, no property to sell for food, no skills to barter for money or food, no future and no voice with which to unionise.
aka
The good old days.
| 662 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:09:07pm |
re: #646 reine.de.tout
And have riots on your hands from boredom.
Nope.
You’ve got a point there. Chain gangs, though, they might be a good idea.
| 663 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:09:15pm |
re: #633 NJDhockeyfan
I say we make the prisons a place you do not want to go to like it used to be. Take away the radios, TVs, etc. Give them a cell with a bunk and a toilet. Bring back the chain gangs.
So when someone is about to commit a crime they’ll think twice because the won’t have a TV in prison?
In a case like that why should all prisoners be treated equally? Someone that’s in jail for stealing a couple of kegs of beer should not be treated the same as a murderer or any other violent criminal.
| 664 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:09:33pm |
re: #658 Racer X
IMHO unions don’t embrace ‘pay for performance’ too well.
performance? sounds discriminatory to me!
| 665 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:09:34pm |
re: #655 Cato the Elder
There was limited space.
But never fear. When I get done with my current translation job, I’m going to start working on the Lizardiad in one hundred full-length cantos, à la Dante, Camões, and Pound.
You’ll probably get your own canto.
Thank you.
| 666 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:09:36pm |
re: #647 WindUpBird
maybe!
it’s like the dipshit meme you always hear about about HOW COULD A LAWYER EVER REPRESENT A RAPIST WITH A CLEAR COSNCIENCE?!?!?!
I just…there are not enough facepalms for that.
Which has the clear conscience, the lawyer or the rapist?
| 667 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:09:41pm |
re: #633 NJDhockeyfan
I say we make the prisons a place you do not want to go to like it used to be. Take away the radios, TVs, etc. Give them a cell with a bunk and a toilet. Bring back the chain gangs.
Yes I’m sure that won’t harm the psyches of those sent there thus insuring that if any of them get out on the streets again they’ll never be able to become productive members of society….
| 668 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:09:53pm |
re: #659 bratwurst
This is where you are in outer space. The friction you are receiving here on this has MUCH less to do with politics than it does with a perceived false equivalency.
Yep.
| 669 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:09:59pm |
“Don’t shoot him Joe! You know they ain’t got no TV in prison!”
/
| 671 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:10:06pm |
re: #585 researchok
Yes, if you extrapolate the numbers, you’re looking at about 100k kids. It gets fuzzy though because reporting differs from state to state and there are varying time frames.
Even if you assume the number is only half right (one can only hope), we’re still talking big numbers.
100,000 kids abused annually in a nation with 16.8 million schoolchildren means that about one in two hundred children each year is in some way molested by an educator. (Someone check my figures.)
That’s horrible. And if many of those educators are being shuffled around, or gaming the system, or if union policies are helping them escape their just deserts then we need to strengthen the system, we need to crack down on school boards and administrations, and we need to make sure the unions show common sense.
However, given that it’s believed that 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys is sexually abused in this country before they reach the age of 18, the numbers seem to indicate that they may be a hell of a lot safer at school than anywhere else.
| 672 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:10:19pm |
| 673 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:10:26pm |
re: #661 wozzablog
A government that doesn’t give two shits about people with no hope of a job, no money to buy food or schooling, no property to sell for food, no skills to barter for money or food, no future and no voice with which to unionise.
aka
The good old days.
Real Americans pull themselves up by the bootstraps and get rich in time for retirement. Those people are just being lazy.
| 674 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:10:36pm |
| 675 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:10:53pm |
re: #670 windsagio
Brilliant.
and it was post 666. I imagine cato saying that wearing a velvet smoking jacket and horns :D
| 676 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:11:00pm |
re: #668 WindUpBird
Aka: “We hate people who don’t think but rather hate what their masters tell them to”.
| 677 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:11:06pm |
| 678 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:11:11pm |
re: #586 windsagio
Scapegoating is easier than thinking I know, but you have to try to overcome!!!
Well, it’s California. If a thing’s worth doing, it’s worth overdoing.
| 679 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:11:13pm |
re: #640 reine.de.tout
I would like to say that as someone who supports single payer and a lot of other government programs with broad scope, that kingdom building is a real, huge problem in government. It is also something that happens in ordinary corporations— everyone wants the big budgets, the big head count, etc.
The solution in both cases is to have people running the place who can see it for what it is and put a stop to it; too often, the people running the place got there because of how good they are at doing it.
It is hard to stop people from gaming systems. It’s hard to find people who are both highly competent and non-competitive enough to pass up an opportunity because it’s better for the whole.
| 680 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:11:14pm |
re: #510 Gus 802
Three Strikes
Penal Overkill In California?
Free Willie 2 was a crime. That film had major suckage.
| 681 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:11:14pm |
re: #638 researchok
SFZ, my point isn’t to ‘divert attention’ from the CC. In fact, I’m all for hanging their sorry asses out to dry (the ones who knowingly covered up the abuse and hid the abusers).
All I wanted to do was draw attention to more victims who deserve equal protections.
I know my politics offends some here, but I really appreciate the civil exchanges. I’ve had my mind changed more than once and I’ve had my opinions reinforced. On some matters we agree and others we don’t. So what?
This isn’t personal and never has been.
For the most part, I read the comments here and don’t participate because I really dislike the vitriol. I shall probably go back to being an occasional mild commenter.
/Lurk harder man, lurk harder!
| 682 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:11:38pm |
683 |
Liet_Kynes Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:11:49pm |
I don’t see a problem raising the statute of limitations for criminal cases — after all the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith now routinely allows for canonical charges to be brought against prelates where the statute of limitations has already passed.
Personally and for any given generic charge I lean towards longer statutes in regards to criminal prosecutions and shorter statues towards civil prosecutions. As mentioned up thread the current civil statute for abuse of minors is 30 years. That is not unreasonably short.
When it comes to civil charges, a lot of people falsely labor under the assumption that the Catholic Church has a lot of money. It does not. Most of the wealth of the Church is tied up property and buildings — all of which cannot be sold for their value. The Church doesn’t have mandatory minimum amount for tithing - it is all free will donations. A diocese is quite large, so it has an operating budget with a lot of zeros, but a large operating budget is not a good indicator of wealth. Not exactly unreasonable for the diocese to not approve of raising the statue of limitations for civil cases — especially in this sue crazy and vindictive climate that we are now in.
——-
Do understand that I find sexual abuse abhorrent and do apologize for and will call out by name
1.) Those (bishops, religious, and lay persons) who did not follow the teachings and laws of the Church in these manners.
2.) Those who actively perpetuated the problem through lying, hiding, transferring, and not cleaning out the seminaries.
3.) Those who meant well but following bad advice or having an unnecessary “bunker mentality” allowed for the problem to fester.
But I shall defend
1.) The Catholic Faith and the Church herself (as a people, as an institution), which is not limited to the Church Hierarchy. (I am highly anti clericalism)
2.) The right of the Church to operate her own laws and courts independently from the State and without interference from any legislature, president, or monarch.
3.) Those good Catholic religious, laity , and prelates who fight the good fight
| 684 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:11:55pm |
re: #671 SanFranciscoZionist
100,000 kids abused annually in a nation with 16.8 million schoolchildren means that about one in two hundred children each year is in some way molested by an educator. (Someone check my figures.)
That’s horrible. And if many of those educators are being shuffled around, or gaming the system, or if union policies are helping them escape their just deserts then we need to strengthen the system, we need to crack down on school boards and administrations, and we need to make sure the unions show common sense.
However, given that it’s believed that 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys is sexually abused in this country before they reach the age of 18, the numbers seem to indicate that they may be a hell of a lot safer at school than anywhere else.
This cannot be bolded enough.
| 685 |
Tiny alien kittens are watching you Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:12:07pm |
re: #619 Gus 802
I think the three strikes rule is primarily political.
Now if one says burglary that depends on if they carried a weapon or not. Firearm, knife, bat, etc. If they have no record of physically violent behavior then someone that commits a burglary unarmed would get a shorter sentence then one that was armed.
Most states have gotten tired of being sued for “sentence inequality” where a black or hispanic got more time than a white defendant did for the same crime. So they have tied the judges hands by passing legislatively mandated sentence guidelines.
In Florida the judges hands are completely tied, they have to take into account all of the things you mentioned and many besides more as part of the “point system” as the inmates call it. Your sentence is based on your points, so previous crimes can mean a lot of time for even a minor infraction now, or vice-versa unfortunately.
The judge can go outside of the sentence guidelines for your point score and give you more if he feels that you deserve it, but he also has to say why in writing in a report to the legislature and then expect to defend an automatic appeal.
They might as well just set up a computer to do the sentencing…
| 686 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:12:11pm |
re: #674 Cato the Elder
And that’s the thanks I get.
thanks? what happened to “in service to mankind”?
| 687 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:12:33pm |
re: #671 SanFranciscoZionist
100,000 kids abused annually in a nation with 16.8 million schoolchildren means that about one in two hundred children each year is in some way molested by an educator. (Someone check my figures.)
That’s horrible. And if many of those educators are being shuffled around, or gaming the system, or if union policies are helping them escape their just deserts then we need to strengthen the system, we need to crack down on school boards and administrations, and we need to make sure the unions show common sense.
However, given that it’s believed that 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys is sexually abused in this country before they reach the age of 18, the numbers seem to indicate that they may be a hell of a lot safer at school than anywhere else.
I agree.
Like I said in my previous comment, I just wanted bring attention to a whole class of kids that have been under the radar, that’s all.
| 688 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:12:36pm |
re: #647 WindUpBird
maybe!
it’s like the dipshit meme you always hear about about HOW COULD A LAWYER EVER REPRESENT A RAPIST WITH A CLEAR COSNCIENCE?!?!?!
I just…there are not enough facepalms for that.
Who are the Al Qaeda Seven?
| 689 |
Wozza Matter? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:12:42pm |
| 690 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:12:47pm |
re: #593 WindUpBird
How about we just sentence people as they get convicted of crimes, and tack on some sentencing for recidivism?
That’s so boring. How are we going to get enough people inside for elaborate prison cities where the law dare not go to evolve?
I mean, we kind of already have those, but, you know, with guys with mechanical arms, and weird costumes.
| 691 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:13:00pm |
re: #683 Liet_Kynes
2.) The right of the Church to operate her own laws and courts independently from the State and without interference from any legislature, president, or monarch.
What the hell does this part mean?
693 |
OldScouter Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:13:07pm |
I thought the proper thing to do is go to the Catholic Public Affairs site, and read their take. It would appear that this bill maintains the prohibition for individuals to sue the state, or public school districts in abuse cases. In other words, only private and parochial schools and their sponsors can be sued. The Catholic Church simply is asking that the new law apply to ALL educational organizations. Seems fair to me. Get all the abusers, not just some. A quote from their site.
“The proposed legislation does not address a persons inability to sue a local board of education or government agency. If the legislature seriously considers passage of this legislation, then in the pursuit of fairness and equity, they should allow people abused by public officials (such as teachers and coaches) the right to sue a public agency that was responsible for the oversight of the abuser.”
| 694 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:13:24pm |
re: #596 windsagio
The subtext that judges are too stupid or liberal to actually make informed decisions really annoys me btw, why don’t we just go for sentence-vending machines?
That was the big trend, really, through the 90s especially. Mandatory sentencing policies right and left.
| 695 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:13:31pm |
re: #691 Obdicut
You’re a better man than me, I was totally all TL;DR.
| 696 |
Athens Runaway Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:13:37pm |
re: #693 OldScouter
I thought the proper thing to do is go to the Catholic Public Affairs site, and read their take. It would appear that this bill maintains the prohibition for individuals to sue the state, or public school districts in abuse cases. In other words, only private and parochial schools and their sponsors can be sued. The Catholic Church simply is asking that the new law apply to ALL educational organizations. Seems fair to me. Get all the abusers, not just some. A quote from their site.
“The proposed legislation does not address a persons inability to sue a local board of education or government agency. If the legislature seriously considers passage of this legislation, then in the pursuit of fairness and equity, they should allow people abused by public officials (such as teachers and coaches) the right to sue a public agency that was responsible for the oversight of the abuser.”
Pfft. That’s a biased site.
//
| 697 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:13:38pm |
re: #662 Dark_Falcon
You’ve got a point there. Chain gangs, though, they might be a good idea.
Louisiana State Prison at Angola.
Once a hellhole, still a hellhole, but calm, relatively speaking. From wiki:
Angola is still run as a working farm; Warden Cain once said that the key to running a peaceful maximum security prison was that “you’ve got to keep the inmates working all day so they’re tired at night.”[citation needed]Many prisoners in Angola are serving sentences which are so long that there is no realistic prospect of parole e.g. 60 years or more. Inmates who develop terminal illnesses are treated at a secure hospice within the grounds of the prison, and subsequently buried in the prison cemetery if their family cannot afford to claim and bury the body.[citation needed]
The prison hosts a rodeo every April and October, and its inmates produce the award-winning magazine The Angolite, available to the general public and relatively uncensored.[9] There is a museum which features among its exhibits Louisiana’s old electric chair, “Old Sparky”, last used for the execution of Andrew Lee Jones on 22 July 1991. Angola Prison is also home to the country’s only inmate-operated radio station.[10]
He keeps them busy, not with busy-work, but productive enterprises. It works.
I know this guy. He’s really strange, can be a complete asshole, but he knows how to run a prison.
| 698 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:13:41pm |
re: #654 Vambo
That doesn’t sound very productive. They should at least go back to making license plates or something.
Work inside is a privlege. They make a lot of things, including Fed office furniture. They are limited in competing with contractors to some extent.
Fed Prison Industries:
| 699 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:13:43pm |
| 700 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:13:48pm |
re: #694 SanFranciscoZionist
Yup, and it was stupid and offensive.
| 701 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:14:03pm |
| 702 |
Vambo Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:14:27pm |
re: #689 wozzablog
And when they don’t have bootstraps…?
/
I donated $3,000 worth of bootstraps to the homeless last year. And people mock my compassionate conservatism! /
| 703 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:14:27pm |
re: #683 Liet_Kynes
Eh, what would you know, you spice-eyed stoner?
| 704 |
Athens Runaway Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:14:30pm |
re: #699 WindUpBird
wasn’t the fat guy Gluttony?
And the hot chick was Lust, right?
And their leader was Father?
Damnit, that’s “Full Metal Alchemist.”
Sorry.
| 705 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:15:01pm |
re: #704 Athens Runaway
And the hot chick was Lust, right?
And their leader was Father?
Damnit, that’s “Full Metal Alchemist.”
Sorry.
hahaha I was making a Seven joke, you went the other way, well done :D
| 706 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:15:31pm |
| 707 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:15:44pm |
| 708 |
brookly red Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:15:53pm |
re: #688 jamesfirecat
Who are the Al Qaeda Seven?
well there is Stoney, Bomby, Beheady, Stabby, Rapey, Snipey, Tourchy, & Doc.
| 710 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:15:55pm |
re: #679 Obdicut
I would like to say that as someone who supports single payer and a lot of other government programs with broad scope, that kingdom building is a real, huge problem in government. It is also something that happens in ordinary corporations— everyone wants the big budgets, the big head count, etc.
The solution in both cases is to have people running the place who can see it for what it is and put a stop to it; too often, the people running the place got there because of how good they are at doing it.
It is hard to stop people from gaming systems. It’s hard to find people who are both highly competent and non-competitive enough to pass up an opportunity because it’s better for the whole.
Gov’t programs, once put in place, are there forever, and always grow.
It’s just how it works - we can do even better!
There’s no evil intent, IMO, it’s just that people want to put their own mark on things.
Corporations have a built-in stop on that, in that they MUST show a profit. The government does not have to.
| 711 |
Bagua Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:16:00pm |
re: #677 albusteve
did you catch the tribute to Woodstock on the History Channel?…pretty cool
No cable TV for me, I only watch LOST, before that nothing. I do miss the History channel, also all the animal shows.
| 712 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:16:04pm |
re: #634 Dark_Falcon
Can you find a place in the song for me? All that grilling I do in the song, I at least deserve to be named.
I agree, Falcon needs to be named. We could not grill without him. I mean, we could, but do we really want to?
| 713 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:16:11pm |
re: #703 Cato the Elder
Eh, what would you know, you spice-eyed stoner?
Updinged for Dune reference.
| 714 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:16:24pm |
How funny…a scene from The Shield…dubbed in German.
| 715 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:16:29pm |
re: #662 Dark_Falcon
You’ve got a point there. Chain gangs, though, they might be a good idea.
Alabama tried to bring them back a few years ago. Couldn’t get past the idea of a chaingang snagged by an 18-wheeler. Also unfairly made them unavailble to the ladies at Tutweiler State.
| 716 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:16:39pm |
Here is a CRAZY idea about prisons: how about we try to…you know…REHABILITATE the non-violent offenders and reduce the recidivism rate?
| 717 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:17:00pm |
re: #697 reine.de.tout
He keeps them busy, not with busy-work, but productive enterprises. It works.
I know this guy. He’s really strange, can be a complete asshole, but he knows how to run a prison.
Cool Hand Luke
| 718 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:17:24pm |
re: #638 researchok
SFZ, my point isn’t to ‘divert attention’ from the CC. In fact, I’m all for hanging their sorry asses out to dry (the ones who knowingly covered up the abuse and hid the abusers).
All I wanted to do was draw attention to more victims who deserve equal protections.
I know my politics offends some here, but I really appreciate the civil exchanges. I’ve had my mind changed more than once and I’ve had my opinions reinforced. On some matters we agree and others we don’t. So what?
This isn’t personal and never has been.
For the most part, I read the comments here and don’t participate because I really dislike the vitriol. I shall probably go back to being an occasional mild commenter.
I appreciate that, and I certainly don’t intend to drive you back into silence. But I will get the end of an argument and keep chewing until I get done with it, sort of like a rawhide bone with a dog.
| 719 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:17:46pm |
| 720 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:18:06pm |
re: #711 Bagua
No cable TV for me, I only watch LOST, before that nothing. I do miss the History channel, also all the animal shows.
lots of insight from the promoters, players etc….I was here that weekend
en.wikipedia.org
| 721 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:18:35pm |
re: #715 Decatur Deb
Alabama tried to bring them back a few years ago. Couldn’t get past the idea of a chaingang snagged by an 18-wheeler. Also unfairly made them unavailble to the ladies at Tutweiler State.
Were they brought in to keep the groups?
| 722 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:18:45pm |
| 723 |
Gus Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:18:53pm |
re: #716 bratwurst
Here is a CRAZY idea about prisons: how about we try to…you know…REHABILITATE the non-violent offenders and reduce the recidivism rate?
Vocational training. Of course they’d have to have something to come back to. For example, if they’re returned into the same toxic environment the recidivism will remain.
| 724 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:19:15pm |
re: #718 SanFranciscoZionist
I appreciate that, and I certainly don’t intend to drive you back into silence. But I will get the end of an argument and keep chewing until I get done with it, sort of like a rawhide bone with a dog.
If you wear a sexy-teacher outfit while doing that, I’ll pay to see it!
| 725 |
Wozza Matter? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:19:18pm |
re: #716 bratwurst
Here is a CRAZY idea about prisons: how about we try to…you know…REHABILITATE the non-violent offenders and reduce the recidivism rate?
thats crazy talk - back to the end of the line - no red meat macho bullshit nonsense for you before bed time………….
| 726 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:19:32pm |
re: #717 Gus 802
[Video]Cool Hand Luke
Heh.
“what we have heah, is failure t’commun’cate”.
It’s much different these days.
| 727 |
HoosierHoops Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:19:36pm |
re: #701 albusteve
it means the Teflon Pope
Yes..And what is this after 20 or more years you can’t prosecute? What the heck does that mean?
If you are a priest and abuse a child you should be under the law of the land forever…Time Doesn’t matter..This is a special crime and it needs to be addressed that way..The Church has sinned…
| 728 |
Stanley Sea Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:19:36pm |
| 729 |
Athens Runaway Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:19:48pm |
re: #705 WindUpBird
hahaha I was making a Seven joke, you went the other way, well done :D
I try. Perhaps I’m not totally useless and brainwashed after all.
Is it bad that I made that joke, or that other people got it?
| 730 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:19:57pm |
re: #722 albusteve
Damn kids and their Irreverent humor!!!!
| 731 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:20:04pm |
re: #716 bratwurst
Here is a CRAZY idea about prisons: how about we try to…you know…REHABILITATE the non-violent offenders and reduce the recidivism rate?
Because then we send them right back to square one without a “get out of jail again” card.
| 732 |
Bagua Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:21:24pm |
re: #720 albusteve
lots of insight from the promoters, players etc…I was here that weekend
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
Ann Arbor or Woodstock?
| 733 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:21:59pm |
re: #708 brookly red
well there is Stoney, Bomby, Beheady, Stabby, Rapey, Snipey, Tourchy, & Doc.
Have to down ding you, because if you know who the “real Al-Qaeda seven” is that’s horribly offensive to fine public servants.
| 734 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:22:09pm |
re: #721 Dark_Falcon
Were they brought in to keep the groups?
Tutweiler State Penitentiary. They weren’t offered a chaingang program—too B-movie.
| 735 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:22:27pm |
re: #600 reine.de.tout
“TU QUOQUE! ”
Arguably the most abused and overused phrase on this blog.
| 736 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:22:27pm |
| 737 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:23:32pm |
KILLGORE, you here?
For you:
Okla. tea parties and lawmakers envision militia
From the AP through yahoonews
| 738 |
Wozza Matter? Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:23:59pm |
re: #731 Decatur Deb
Giving hard drug users treatment or a sponsored methodone programme will be more effective than locking them up.
Needle exchanges reduce local petty crime and reduce the potential harm to the community from dropped syringes.
Putting soft drug users into training programmes as mechanics/plumbers/electricians and giving them a reason to get up in the mornings is also shown to be cheaper and more effective than incarceration.
| 739 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:23:59pm |
re: #716 bratwurst
Here is a CRAZY idea about prisons: how about we try to…you know…REHABILITATE the non-violent offenders and reduce the recidivism rate?
What are you, nuts?
| 740 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:24:03pm |
| 741 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:24:09pm |
re: #735 Rightwingconspirator
“TU QUOQUE! ”
Arguably the most abused and overused phrase on this blog.
heheheh.
I just threw it in there to save everyone the trouble. Figured it would be coming.
| 742 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:24:34pm |
re: #735 Rightwingconspirator
“TU QUOQUE! ”
Arguably the most abused and overused phrase on this blog.
I think the actual fallacy is what’s overused, the phrase, not so much 8-)
| 743 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:24:38pm |
re: #722 albusteve
standard fare these days…ho hum
Yes, because in the old days, folks never said anything mean about public figures ‘round here.
| 744 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:25:08pm |
re: #743 SanFranciscoZionist
Yes, because in the old days, folks never said anything mean about public figures ‘round here.
I’ll still talk about Pelosi’s blink rate, if anyone’s interested.
| 745 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:25:31pm |
re: #728 Stanley Sea
Loved that show.
Me too. Best cop drama ever. Here’s Vick Mackey trying to find a cop killer…
| 746 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:25:34pm |
re: #722 albusteve
standard fare these days…ho hum
Wasn’t there that guy who got John Kerry Rage back in the day?
| 747 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:25:57pm |
re: #710 reine.de.tout
Actually, corporations don’t have to show a profit. The company I work at just had its first profitable quarter in seven years.
Eventually, they do, but they can limp along for a long, long time. EA was going downhill with massive inefficiency about twelve years ago, but only in the last year, really, did they start to get hurt by it and if the downturn didn’t happen they might not have. You see, they were a huge company, so even as their overhead was ballooning, they were able to strongarm retailers into giving them huge amounts of shelf space, get good reviews, and do all those other industry-giant things that are done.
In addition, they still had oodles of cash from their success— and more still flowing in, since the inertia hadn’t begun to really drag them down. This allowed them to continue buying studios, bringing in bursts of new talent before they either got strangled in red tape or left for greener pastures. So that enabled them to go along even longer.
And now, they’re not dead, though they’re not feeling very well. They distorted the games market, destroyed a lot of great independent studios— okay, the studios destroyed themselves by selling out, but EA has enormous coercive power as a publisher, it’s not a normal relationship. They set a terrible standard for the treatment of employees in the industry, and yet most of the people responsible for those mistakes profited hugely and are now either still there or off at other large companies. It’s really only since the emergence of Valve that the industry has been revitalized.
Bad executives move from one corporation to another— it’s really not a meritocracy up there. There are some great executives, but there are also simply people who know how best to exploit a system for their own benefit. Look at how many CEOs leave a company in near-ruins and go on to another CEO job. Carly Fiona comes to mind.
So yes, it is worrisome for government programs to expand because of their permanence, there can be enormous problems with private industry’s handling of any market at any time, too. Efficiency is not defined by a platonic ideal, but by the actual shape of the market; and if you have massive coercive force, you distort the market. Wal-mart is the largest current example of this— anyone selling anything at retail wants it in Wal-Mart. Target is challenging them now, but for the past decade, Wal-mart could make or break you— and they used that to extort the shit out of industries.
Government and private industry, Scylla and Charybdis. Good people are the answer. How do we get the best people to rise, and the assholes to fail?
That’s the holy grail.
| 749 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:25:59pm |
re: #740 Decatur Deb
Ah.. The gangs were used along the interstates “to encourage the others”.
Good use of the Voltaire quote. But that is indeed a good argument for chain gangs. In fact, it’s Joe Arpaio’s argument.
| 750 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:26:00pm |
re: #744 reine.de.tout
I’ll still talk about Pelosi’s blink rate, if anyone’s interested.
Has it increased or decreased since the HCR bill passed?
| 751 |
windsagio Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:26:06pm |
re: #735 Rightwingconspirator
If people would actually argue things on their merits, maybe the term wouldn’t come up so much >>
| 752 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:26:56pm |
re: #735 Rightwingconspirator
“TU QUOQUE! ”
Arguably the most abused and overused phrase on this blog.
Also among the most abused and overused style of argument. Just sayin.
| 753 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:27:10pm |
re: #732 Bagua
Ann Arbor or Woodstock?
Ann Arbor…couldn’t do Woodstock, but I know people that did…the Ann Arbor gig was a remarkable weekend…I walked right up to the front of the stage and see Son House play, and others…the next year,1970, we blew off A2 for the monster Goose Lake Festival….wow!
| 754 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:27:16pm |
re: #746 WindUpBird
Wasn’t there that guy who got John Kerry Rage back in the day?
Well, yes, TFK had sort of a deep, burning, indefatigable hatred for John Kerry.
But he never made jokes about his sex life.
And he left before I figured out what ‘sunspots’ meant.
| 755 |
researchok Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:27:24pm |
re: #718 SanFranciscoZionist
I appreciate that, and I certainly don’t intend to drive you back into silence. But I will get the end of an argument and keep chewing until I get done with it, sort of like a rawhide bone with a dog.
Oh no- our exchanges were terrific!
I just get distracted by the vitriol. Hell, I don’t mind taking a beating every now and then if it’s part of a worthwhile back and forth (Thanos administered a couple of good shots tonight!).
What is really funny is how exaggerated things can get. We forget who we really are.
I don’t care who you vote for. I just want to know you’re a good neighbor. I want to know you’ll keep an eye out for my kid and check the house if I’m on vacation. I don’t care where you pray, if you pray or don’t believe. I just want to know I can count on you at 3 AM if I’m in trouble. I want you to know that you or your kid can ring my doorbell 24/7 if there’s a problem.
We are a lot more similar than we are different. It’s only the extremists who want us to believe we are so different that we can’t get along or that we have to subjugate each other. They have to do that because that is the only way they can stay relevant. The last thing they want you to believe is that we are really a lot more alike than we are different.
Sometimes that gets lost in here.
| 756 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:27:41pm |
re: #751 windsagio
If people would actually argue things on their merits, maybe the term wouldn’t come up so much >>
It’s just so…tempting.
| 757 |
freetoken Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:27:54pm |
re: #737 reine.de.tout
From your link:
State Sen. Randy Brogdon, R-Owasso, a Republican candidate for governor who has appealed for tea party support, said supporters of a state militia have talked to him, and that he believes the citizen unit would be authorized under the Second Amendment to the Constitution.
The founding fathers “were not referring to a turkey shoot or a quail hunt. They really weren’t even talking about us having the ability to protect ourselves against each other,” Brogdon said. “The Second Amendment deals directly with the right of an individual to keep and bear arms to protect themselves from an overreaching federal government.”
I’ve linked to some stuff on Brogdon here a while back. He is a real Alex-Jones type. Fits right in to the OK GOP scene.
| 758 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:28:08pm |
re: #747 Obdicut
I will second all the stuff about Electronic Arts. Any good gamer is aware of EA and their various suck.
| 759 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:28:13pm |
re: #755 researchok
Oh no- our exchanges were terrific!
I just get distracted by the vitriol. Hell, I don’t mind taking a beating every now and then if it’s part of a worthwhile back and forth (Thanos administered a couple of good shots tonight!).
What is really funny is how exaggerated things can get. We forget who we really are.
I don’t care who you vote for. I just want to know you’re a good neighbor. I want to know you’ll keep an eye out for my kid and check the house if I’m on vacation. I don’t care where you pray, if you pray or don’t believe. I just want to know I can count on you at 3 AM if I’m in trouble. I want you to know that you or your kid can ring my doorbell 24/7 if there’s a problem.
We are a lot more similar than we are different. It’s only the extremists who want us to believe we are so different that we can’t get along or that we have to subjugate each other. They have to do that because that is the only way they can stay relevant. The last thing they want you to believe is that we are really a lot more alike than we are different.
Sometimes that gets lost in here.
Quite Concur, as the Falcon would say.
| 760 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:28:14pm |
re: #749 Dark_Falcon
Good use of the Voltaire quote. But that is indeed a good argument for chain gangs. In fact, it’s Joe Arpaio’s argument.
“Arapaio” is Spanish for “Bull Connor”.
| 762 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:28:56pm |
re: #758 WindUpBird
By the way, I had 1337 allowed characters remaining in that post.
| 763 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:29:07pm |
re: #752 bratwurst
Also among the most abused and overused style of argument. Just sayin.
Nowadays, I know people turn off when they see that phrase, so I just tend to point out the phenomenon without using it directly :D
| 764 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:29:20pm |
re: #727 HoosierHoops
Yes..And what is this after 20 or more years you can’t prosecute? What the heck does that mean?
If you are a priest and abuse a child you should be under the law of the land forever…Time Doesn’t matter..This is a special crime and it needs to be addressed that way..The Church has sinned…
People within the Church have sinned.
| 766 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:30:02pm |
| 767 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:30:24pm |
re: #746 WindUpBird
Wasn’t there that guy who got John Kerry Rage back in the day?
His nic is TaxFreeKiller. He ultimately got banned and is now on the Stalker Blog. He still fixates of Kerry but now also fixates on Ludwig at times.
| 768 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:30:46pm |
re: #745 NJDhockeyfan
He’s the one who shot one of his partners because he thought he was going to rat him out about the fact that Vic Mackey supported a local drug dealer, right?
Mackey himself is a damn cop-killer.
| 769 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:31:15pm |
re: #743 SanFranciscoZionist
Yes, because in the old days, folks never said anything mean about public figures ‘round here.
it’s tasteless imo…post whatever you want tho, maybe riff on BOs well known bondage/torture sex appetite
| 770 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:31:36pm |
re: #766 WindUpBird
I love that picture. That’s what it’s like in my head 24/7.
| 771 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:31:52pm |
re: #747 Obdicut
Government and private industry, Scylla and Charybdis. Good people are the answer. How do we get the best people to rise, and the assholes to fail?
That’s the holy grail.
| 772 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:32:07pm |
re: #747 Obdicut
. ..
Bad executives move from one corporation to another— it’s really not a meritocracy up there. There are some great executives, but there are also simply people who know how best to exploit a system for their own benefit. Look at how many CEOs leave a company in near-ruins and go on to another CEO job. Carly Fiona comes to mind.So yes, it is worrisome for government programs to expand because of their permanence, there can be enormous problems with private industry’s handling of any market at any time, too. Efficiency is not defined by a platonic ideal, but by the actual shape of the market; and if you have massive coercive force, you distort the market. Wal-mart is the largest current example of this— anyone selling anything at retail wants it in Wal-Mart. Target is challenging them now, but for the past decade, Wal-mart could make or break you— and they used that to extort the shit out of industries.
Government and private industry, Scylla and Charybdis. Good people are the answer. How do we get the best people to rise, and the assholes to fail?
That’s the holy grail.
I actually read the whole thing, thank you.
Bad governmental executives also get moved around.
As to getting good people - heck, they need to hire you and me, eh?
It’s a quandary.
| 773 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:32:43pm |
re: #754 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, yes, TFK had sort of a deep, burning, indefatigable hatred for John Kerry.
But he never made jokes about his sex life.
And he left before I figured out what ‘sunspots’ meant.
(ok, shh - TFK was nuts).
| 774 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:33:09pm |
re: #751 windsagio
If people would actually argue things on their merits, maybe the term wouldn’t come up so much >>
I try!
Really, I do!
| 775 |
albusteve Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:33:27pm |
re: #746 WindUpBird
Wasn’t there that guy who got John Kerry Rage back in the day?
don’t recall Kerry’s sex like as part of the meme…Americans are obsessed with sex
| 776 |
bratwurst Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:33:44pm |
re: #763 WindUpBird
Nowadays, I know people turn off when they see that phrase, so I just tend to point out the phenomenon without using it directly :D
I think it is kind of cute when they pretend like they don’t know what it is!
| 777 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:35:35pm |
re: #772 reine.de.tout
Well, I’m starting my own business, so I’ll get to hire only good people. Including my mother-in-law-to-be, I hope.
One of the reasons that I study WWII so much is that I feel the US Army in the ETO, at any rate, was a great example of a system whereby, even though it had huge flaws, by and large the best rose to the top. There were some inversions, some problems, but it was a hugely successful, vastly complex organization.
I also like Atul Gawande’s books a great deal, especially The Checklist Manifesto— if you haven’t read it, it’s a wonderful book about complexity.
I think that a new science is being born right now, just as efficiency studies was born in WWII. I think we’re starting to realize that systems that are overly complex are self-defeating in the end, and that reduction of complexity is a reduction of risk.
| 778 |
Liet_Kynes Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:36:02pm |
re: #691 Obdicut
2.) The right of the Church to operate her own laws and courts independently from the State and without interference from any legislature, president, or monarch.What the hell does this part mean?
No need to swear.
It means that I support separation of Church and State from the perspective that the Church does not control the crown and the crown does not control the miter.
| 779 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:36:31pm |
re: #771 Cato the Elder
That’d be a good start. I would have liked to see some real raking over the coals for those executives.
| 780 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:36:55pm |
re: #778 Liet_Kynes
That cleared up exactly nothing.
| 781 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:39:40pm |
re: #777 Obdicut
Well, I’m starting my own business, so I’ll get to hire only good people. Including my mother-in-law-to-be, I hope.
One of the reasons that I study WWII so much is that I feel the US Army in the ETO, at any rate, was a great example of a system whereby, even though it had huge flaws, by and large the best rose to the top. There were some inversions, some problems, but it was a hugely successful, vastly complex organization.
I also like Atul Gawande’s books a great deal, especially The Checklist Manifesto— if you haven’t read it, it’s a wonderful book about complexity.
I think that a new science is being born right now, just as efficiency studies was born in WWII. I think we’re starting to realize that systems that are overly complex are self-defeating in the end, and that reduction of complexity is a reduction of risk.
I do have the Checklist Manifesto, haven’t yet looked at it (more in the mood for light reading currently).
Yes - systems that are overly complex are self-defeating in the end.
One agency I worked for, I had a direct line to the guy at the top. We could get moving and hire or fire or take some action within hours.
Then there were those agencies that were so incredibly bureaucratic, with LEVELS of approval needed that would take two months to do what I could do in a day.
| 782 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:42:06pm |
re: #778 Liet_Kynes
No need to swear.
It means that I support separation of Church and State from the perspective that the Church does not control the crown and the crown does not control the miter.
However, if a church official violates a crown law - which “court” takes care of it?
| 783 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:42:26pm |
re: #777 Obdicut
Oh, and best of luck on your business!
| 784 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:42:57pm |
re: #781 reine.de.tout
I’m not sorry to be leaving employment and starting my own company. It’s pretty damn intimidating, but i have contracts lined up with my current company for long enough to feel somewhat secure. And I know a lot of great people I can hire and expand.
And I won’t have to watch good ideas go to waste anymore, or get passed over because the wrong person said them. Or if I do, at least it will be my own stupid fault.
My model for this is a friend of mine who runs a company where he literally sends out an email saying, “What did I do wrong this week?” and expects serious answers.
| 787 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:45:08pm |
re: #785 Decatur Deb
Me too. Seeya, Reine, Cato, whoever else is hanging on.
And man, those West Virginia kids are still making me smile. I sent that to my mom and dad— my mom’s so innocent she just kept asking why the Phelps jerks were protesting, she couldn’t understand at all. But she liked the students.
Anyway, goodnight.
| 788 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:45:23pm |
re: #719 Dark_Falcon
That’s a nasty thing to say.
Have you ever listened to Liz Cheney? She’d probably take it as a compliment.
| 789 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:47:02pm |
re: #784 Obdicut
I’m not sorry to be leaving employment and starting my own company. It’s pretty damn intimidating, but i have contracts lined up with my current company for long enough to feel somewhat secure. And I know a lot of great people I can hire and expand.
And I won’t have to watch good ideas go to waste anymore, or get passed over because the wrong person said them. Or if I do, at least it will be my own stupid fault.
My model for this is a friend of mine who runs a company where he literally sends out an email saying, “What did I do wrong this week?” and expects serious answers.
Your friend has the right idea.
I’ve been watching “Undercover Boss”.
These guys go undercover, and work the front lines with their employees, and learn something every time.
Be visible - be out there, visit with any employees you have, listen to them.
Employees do not always call you or the HR office when they have an idea or a problem. But they’ll tell you if they happen to see you in person. I learned that very early on, I had to visit each satellite office at least once a year to get the real scoop on problems and issues. No one would ever pick up the phone and call, but the minute I showed up - I would be surrounded with folks needing to talk about something. Remember this. It’s very important (30 years of experience managing employees speaking here).
| 790 |
Political Atheist Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:48:38pm |
re: #749 Dark_Falcon
Sheriff Joe Arapio goes too far.
But at least he moves in the right direction.
| 791 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:49:19pm |
re: #768 Obdicut
He’s the one who shot one of his partners because he thought he was going to rat him out about the fact that Vic Mackey supported a local drug dealer, right?
Mackey himself is a damn cop-killer.
Yes he is. The series was very intense. You didn’t like it?
| 792 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Apr 12, 2010 7:52:17pm |
re: #777 Obdicut
Well, I’m starting my own business, so I’ll get to hire only good people. Including my mother-in-law-to-be, I hope.
Great! So am I. Being self employed is the best feeling in the world compared to working for someone else. Much luck to you!
| 793 |
Liet_Kynes Mon, Apr 12, 2010 8:03:12pm |
re: #747 Obdicut
Government and private industry, Scylla and Charybdis. Good people are the answer. How do we get the best people to rise, and the assholes to fail?That’s the holy grail.
Easy.
When virtue becomes more valuable than gold. It won’t happen before that.
Getting people to be virtuous is the hard part. Laws, rules, more government, etc. doesn’t work no matter what iteration it has been tried in.
It is the religious question, and no matter the religion, the answer is the same – the interior man must change, be healed, be restored.
From my perspective, it starts with not casting down the “assholes” into the abyss but rather by men of virtue seeking to raise up the “assholes” and lead them into virtue.
| 794 |
Liet_Kynes Mon, Apr 12, 2010 8:24:46pm |
re: #782 reine.de.tout
However, if a church official violates a crown law - which “court” takes care of it?
Depends on which law was broken. I am not a prelate, but I am protected by my Church’s courts and law, just as any Catholic is (and for many things other Christians have recourse to the Church’s courts as well.) This is why I defend this right of the Church – for my own protection.
Let me give an example. Back in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s there were laws passed in the United States that stated that all children must go to public schools. The laws were passed strictly to try to shut down Catholic schools so kids would not be educated in the Catholic Faith.
Obviously here I would say that the Church, her laws, and her courts would triumph those of the crown, and the that Church and her prelates are not are not subject to the laws of the crown in this reguard.
Now what about Henry the VIII’s Oath of Supremacy?
History has shown that if the Church is totally subject to the laws of the State, then the Church becomes but a plaything of the state.
| 795 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Apr 12, 2010 9:30:22pm |
I never answered a question earlier because my actual family required actual food. (Trying to feed them on 1’s and 0’s has never quite panned out.) I don’t want anyone saying I never answered. This is just as early as I was back on the computer.
Here is the answer I would have given.
Teenagers do not yet have fully mature brains. They should be given growing autonomy, but given the life-altering consequences of sex, that shouldn’t be one of them. Driving the car, getting a job, choosing a college is more like it.
Study on adolescent brains:
Next, there is a distinct link between teen depression and drug use and sexual activity. webmd.com
For the record, the teen that I saw this the clearest in was my own cousin, who is completely agnostic and unchurched and was receiving no guilt whatsoever from her parents.
If you did not follow the rest of the conversation, I am giving two of the reasons I am against teens having sex.
| 796 |
squeak51 Mon, Apr 12, 2010 10:00:57pm |
Sorry folks I got here late and haven’t read every post yet. As experienced with such abuse from around 2 yo to 17 yo (not from the Catholic world) I did learn a few things.
Molesters and rapists are typically at it about ‘power’ over a ‘weaker’ conquest -they can’t (and don’t want to) have adult relations and reject the idea outright.
Castration, chemical or surgical won’t stop them hurting a child by other means -the problem is in their psychological makeup and character (I would add soul, but they’ve become soul-less at some point).
Another biggie to remember is that so very often the perp will emphatically claim that they “have done nothing wrong.” They believe that what they do is not wrong at all - everyone else is wrong thinking, not them. When that doesn’t fly they blame the victim and the system they under.
Okay, I’ll shut up.
| 797 |
squeak51 Mon, Apr 12, 2010 10:09:36pm |
Argh…
#796 part 2 “…and the system they under.” Should read “…and the system they are under.”
AND — Lock them up and throw away the key, they can get therapy on the inside.
Thanks for your patience Lizards.
798 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Apr 13, 2010 12:59:55am |
We have to remember who the real victim is here: the Church, not the molested children.
And we have to keep in mind who is behind it: Satan, secularism, liberal media, Freemasons and Zionists, not the paedophilic and sadistic priests.
Let us not persecute the innocent in some idealistic pursuit of “justice”.
/
799 |
ryannon Tue, Apr 13, 2010 1:52:37am |
re: #636 WindUpBird
America is…not so good at treating mental illness!
But we’re working on it. Now here’s your tea-bag. You wear it on your ear.
| 800 |
ryannon Tue, Apr 13, 2010 1:56:49am |
re: #662 Dark_Falcon
You’ve got a point there. Chain gangs, though, they might be a good idea.
You mean like chain letters?
I don’t see how this would bring down crime.
| 801 |
ryannon Tue, Apr 13, 2010 2:12:09am |
The sad echoing emptiness of a dead thread: Too late, my boy! Too late!
| 802 |
gandalf.il Tue, Apr 13, 2010 11:42:59am |
re: #2 Stonemason
I disagree about capital punishment, but completely get the sentiment.
These bishops are utterly shameless.
| 803 |
gandalf.il Tue, Apr 13, 2010 11:56:38am |
| 804 |
gandalf.il Tue, Apr 13, 2010 12:07:53pm |
re: #85 Decatur Deb
Nonetheless, it troubles me greatly that such a blatant antisemite held the power of a bishop.
| 805 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Apr 13, 2010 12:11:07pm |
re: #804 gandalf.il
Nonetheless, it troubles me greatly that such a blatant antisemite held the power of a bishop.
Certainly. He carries it from a long way back, when it was closer to church thought. (Note—this thread is very dead. I just saw your comment by accident in “Spy” mode.)
| 806 |
gandalf.il Tue, Apr 13, 2010 12:30:11pm |
re: #159 researchok
Downdinging. The bill applies to all offenders
808 |
Sacred Plants Wed, Apr 14, 2010 6:34:51am |
re: #437 freetoken
You mean things like the absurd Three-Strikes law, that fills up prisons with people just because they have an oz of mj in their pocket? To me that is one of the sillier corners into which we’ve painted ourselves.
Prison population per capita is an increasingly popular indicator to measure the amount of freedom or lack thereof that can be pursued in a given country.
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