GOP Creationists Pass Anti-Evolution Bill in Tennessee

The Republican Party’s total war on science
Wingnuts • Views: 29,800

While everyone’s attention was focused on Washington DC last week, Republicans in Tennessee’s House of Representatives passed a bill that will shield science teachers from being disciplined if they’re creationists or global warming deniers.

The Republican Party: protecting ignorance and destroying America’s scientific future.

Some quotes from the Neanderthals who pushed this bill:

Rep. Bill Dunn, R-Knoxville, said the bill’s intent is to promote “critical thinking” in science classrooms.

Critics contend it’s a shield to allow the teaching of evolution alternatives such as intelligent design and creationism.

Bill supporter Rep. Richard Floyd, R-Chattanooga, said that “since the late ‘50s, early ‘60s when we let the intellectual bullies hijack our education system, we’ve been on a slippery slope.”

“This is a common-sense bill,” Floyd said. “Thank you for bringing this bill to protect our teachers from the other intellectual bullies.”

Rep. Sheila Butt, R-Columbia, said when she was in high school, “we gave up Aqua Net hair spray” because of fears “it was causing global warming.”

“Since then scientists have said that maybe we shouldn’t have given up that aerosol can because that aerosol can was actually absorbing the Earth’s rays and keeping us from global warming.”

Good grief.

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429 comments
1 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 10:55:29am

Dayton, Tn., it's been to long.

2 albusteve  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 10:56:26am

re: #1 Jeff In Ohio

Dayton, Tn., it's been to long.

hey, another place you can hate!

3 SpaceJesus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 10:57:04am

intellectual bullying? haha. you haven't seen that yet. wait till this goes to court, then we'll show you what intellectual meanie heads we can be.

4 albusteve  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:00:41am

the face of the GOP....protecting crackpot union teachers who would corrupt science with their novelty faith

5 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:00:43am
Rep. Sheila Butt, R-Columbia, said when she was in high school, “we gave up Aqua Net hair spray” because of fears “it was causing global warming.”

Actually, because we were burning a hole in the ozone layer. Which we were. And we took action, banning and regulating the pollutants. And the result was that we stopped the damage and began to reverse it. It was a great example of government listening to science and taking effective action.

Too bad ignorant fuckwits in the GOP didn't learn the lesson.

6 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:01:46am

re: #4 albusteve

Unions really don't have anything to do with this, Steve.

7 SpaceJesus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:02:32am

if anyone feels like watching fox news commentors kick their usual racism into some kind of overdrive, check this out:

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

8 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:02:44am

Bill supporter Rep. Richard Floyd, R-Chattanooga, said that “since the late ‘50s, early ‘60s when we let the intellectual bullies hijack our education system, we’ve been on a slippery slope.”

“This is a common-sense bill,” Floyd said. “Thank you for bringing this bill to protect our teachers from the other intellectual bullies.”

Rep. Sheila Butt, R-Columbia, said when she was in high school, “we gave up Aqua Net hair spray” because of fears “it was causing global warming.”

“Since then scientists have said that maybe we shouldn’t have given up that aerosol can because that aerosol can was actually absorbing the Earth’s rays and keeping us from global warming.”

We gave up Aqua Net hair spray? What in the world?

9 albusteve  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:03:16am

re: #6 Obdicut

Unions really don't have anything to do with this, Steve.

you're not funny

10 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:04:09am
“since the late ‘50s, early ‘60s when we let the intellectual bullies hijack our education system, we’ve been on a slippery slope.”

Translation: "I was made to feel intellectually inferior in school."

11 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:04:46am

Oh crap. That Bill Dunn dork is an in-law of mine. He was being an anti-poor neanderthal at a family gathering a couple of years ago and I nearly caused a riot for wanting to rip him a new one. Fortunately the old Roman Catholic priest (that side of the family is far right Roman Catholic) did it for me by simply reminding him what the gospel actually says.

12 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:04:51am

re: #2 albusteve

hey, another place you can hate!

That would be the Scopes Trial.

13 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:05:59am

re: #8 Gus 802

I've completely given up trying to discern parody from the real thing.

14 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:06:18am

re: #4 albusteve

the face of the GOP...protecting crackpot union teachers who would corrupt science with their novelty faith

I doubt that considering that Tennessee is a "Right To Work Exploit" state.

15 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:06:54am

And it wasn't the hairspray product itself it was the CFCs. Bunch of dippity dos.

16 Varek Raith  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:06:59am
“Since then scientists have said that maybe we shouldn’t have given up that aerosol can because that aerosol can was actually absorbing the Earth’s rays and keeping us from global warming.”

Stupid, stupid, stupid!

17 kirkspencer  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:07:41am

sigh, "promote critical thinking."

OK, no problem. Establish a falsification test of the intelligent designer's existence. I can show such tests for evilution (misspelling intentional) if you need examples.

If you cannot make such a test it's not critical thinking, it's faith.

18 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:08:40am

re: #16 Varek Raith

Stupid, stupid, stupid!

Absorbing the Earth’s rays! LOL

19 Lidane  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:10:12am

Damn those intellectual bullies and their fancy book learnin' and facts and all. Why can't people be happy with just accepting whatever the preacher says on Sunday?

///

20 albusteve  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:11:05am

trillions of aeorsol cans tied together to reflect Earths harmful rays....
SCIENCE!

21 The Left  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:11:12am

re: #19 Lidane

Damn those intellectual bullies and their fancy book learnin' and facts and all. Why can't people be happy with just accepting whatever the preacher says on Sunday?

///

You don't have to be a member of the factinista to serve the Lord!

22 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:11:53am

How ever will I hold up my beehive hairdo without mah can of Aqua Net?

//

23 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:12:06am

re: #8 Gus 802

We gave up Aqua Net hair spray? What in the world?

This was a critical turning point in her life.

Image: h64.jpg

The lack of Aqua Net reduced her mating opportunities, and she had to settle for Mr. Butt. You can see how that would impact her career.

24 albusteve  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:12:19am

re: #22 Gus 802

How ever will I hold up my beehive hairdo without mah can of Aqua Net?

//

hippo grease

25 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:12:49am

re: #24 albusteve

hippo grease

Crazy glue. Lasts for months.

//

26 Varek Raith  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:13:33am
27 MarkAM  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:13:54am

Well played. . .I couldn't come up with a clever enough way to inject a Butt joke into the discussion. . .

re: #23 wrenchwench

This was a critical turning point in her life.

Image: h64.jpg

The lack of Aqua Net reduced her mating opportunities, and she had to settle for Mr. Butt. You can see how that would impact her career.

28 Robert O.  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:18:12am

Time and time again, I am forced into contemplating the uncomfortable and once-unthinkable question: Would the United States be better off today if it had simply let the Old South go in 1861?

29 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:18:37am

re: #28 Robert O.

Time and time again, I am forced into contemplating the uncomfortable and once-unthinkable question: Would the United States be better off today if it had simply let the Old South go in 1861?

American blacks certainly wouldn't be.

So I'm going to go with 'no'.

30 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:18:53am

re: #2 albusteve

hey, another place you can hate!

Dayton's at the southern end of the Sequatchie Valley, the main resupply route for the Army of the Cumberland during the siege of Chattanooga and subsequent Battle of Lookout Mtn. The Sequatchie Valley, besides being ringed by some of the last old growth east of the Mississippi, is the home to a lot of my kin, the family farm and many of the slaves my great-great-Grandfaterhed owned were given land to farm during reconstruction down around the Dayton area. It's a beautiful place.

And hey thanks for asking! There are other places I hate. Been to Dallas? How about south west Florida? Hated 'em.

31 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:18:53am

Meanwhile, in Gaza....
[Link: www.daylife.com...]

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

All launches from heavily populated civilian areas.

Iron Dome intercepting rocket fired from Gaza by Palestinian Terrorists

32 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:20:01am

re: #5 Obdicut

Actually, because we were burning a hole in the ozone layer. Which we were. And we took action, banning and regulating the pollutants. And the result was that we stopped the damage and began to reverse it. It was a great example of government listening to science and taking effective action.

Too bad ignorant fuckwits in the GOP didn't learn the lesson.

There you go throwing facts at them. You cruel, cruel man.

33 SpaceJesus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:20:18am

re: #28 Robert O.


me too. conclusion: yes. not so much for the slaves though unfortunately.

34 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:21:32am

re: #15 Gus 802

And it wasn't the hairspray product itself it was the CFCs. Bunch of dippity dos.

Nicely done.

35 albusteve  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:22:30am

re: #34 b_sharp

Nicely done.

I gotta bang out of it

36 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:22:55am

re: #35 albusteve

I gotta bang out of it

I figured you would.

37 albusteve  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:23:30am

re: #36 Gus 802

I figured you would.

where's the pun?

38 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:24:12am

re: #37 albusteve

where's the pun?

No pun. Only because I used the phrase "dippity do". ;)

39 Varek Raith  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:25:25am

re: #38 Gus 802

No pun. Only because I used the phrase "dippity do". ;)

Back to the re-conditioning camp for you.

40 albusteve  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:26:25am

re: #39 Varek Raith

Back to the re-conditioning camp for you.

I hate to part with Gus

41 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:26:42am

re: #37 albusteve

where's the pun?

You took the best one. It was really slick.

42 albusteve  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:27:34am

re: #41 b_sharp

You took the best one. It was really slick.

sometimes they just gell like that

43 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:28:07am

The Hamas truce goes as predicted....
Rockets fired from Gaza bombard Ashkelon, western Negev

Palestinians report one killed in IAF strike in northern Gaza; "This is Cast Lead all over again for us," Eshkol official tells 'Post'; over 50 rockets fired from Gaza on latest day of attacks.

Two barrages of rockets were fired at the Eshkol Regional Council Saturday night, bringing the number of rockets launched into Israel from Gaza to over 50 since Saturday morning, police said.
....
Haim Yalin, head of the Eshkol Regional Council, which has been pounded by rockets and mortars from Gaza continuously, told The Jerusalem Post on Saturday evening that the situation was the same as it was during the 2009 Operation Cast Lead.

"This has been going on for 3 days now. It's the same number of rockets as Cast Lead. The feeling is that we are back to that situation all over again. This is an emergency situation," Yalin said.

Israel Air Force Identifies Terrorist Squad Firing from Cemetery in Sajaiya

44 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:28:52am

I am not surprised to see that "tobaccoissues.com" recommends Ms. Butt as a canidate who will take care of issues dear to their hearts wallets. You have to be a science denier to side with Big Tobacco.

45 Ericus58  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:29:24am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

The Hamas truce goes as predicted...
Rockets fired from Gaza bombard Ashkelon, western Negev

Israel Air Force Identifies Terrorist Squad Firing from Cemetery in Sajaiya

[Video]

That video looks familiar....

46 Gus  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:29:40am

Hasta later gators.

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:31:03am

What happens to you under this bill if you do evolve?

48 MarkAM  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:31:18am

Another angle on the butt. . .

re: #44 wrenchwench

I am not surprised to see that "tobaccoissues.com" recommends Ms. Butt as a canidate who will take care of issues dear to their hearts wallets. You have to be a science denier to side with Big Tobacco.

49 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:31:41am

re: #42 albusteve

sometimes they just gell like that

Sorry Steve, I can't think this morning, I'm not feeling well. Your puns are quite good though.

50 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:32:02am

re: #45 Ericus58

That video looks familiar...


They do it all the time. According to the IDF it's fresh footage.

51 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:33:04am

Serious science students still have an option in Tennessee: The Tennessee Governor’s Academy for Math and Science.

Oh, wait.

This is, however, the last year of the Tennessee Governor’s Academy. Despite three great years and countless successes, our doors will be closing in May 2011. Applications for future classes will not be posted or accepted.

Damn.

I guess they didn't want to train any more intellectual bullies.

52 Achilles Tang  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:33:33am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

Debka has more details. However I want to ask a question if someone is from Israel. Most reports of attacks with or without injury speak of people being treated for shock.

Now I don't trivialize the situation, but nobody is more used to the possibility of random attacks that Israelis and it seems somehow strange that people are routinely shocked even when not injured, to extent that they are treated for it, although I don't know what that treatment entails.

Is this a language thing?

53 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:38:54am

I'll BBL. I need to take a nap. Maybe when I wake I'll feel better.

54 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:39:00am

Lady, there were all kinds of other reasons for you to give up Aqua Net hair spray.

55 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:39:14am

re: #52 Naso Tang

Debka has more details. However I want to ask a question if someone is from Israel. Most reports of attacks with or without injury speak of people being treated for shock.

Now I don't trivialize the situation, but nobody is more used to the possibility of random attacks that Israelis and it seems somehow strange that people are routinely shocked even when not injured, to extent that they are treated for it, although I don't know what that treatment entails.

Is this a language thing?

There's a big difference between being used to bombs landing in your town and having a bomb land on your house. And I doubt anyone gets accustomed to "the possibility of random attacks", especially children.

I'm not from Israel, however, so this is not the answer you are looking for.

56 zora  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:39:21am

not trying to be a smart ass, but the treatment is for shock which is a medical condition and not surprise.

57 Ericus58  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:40:03am

re: #50 Killgore Trout

They do it all the time. According to the IDF it's fresh footage.

I know, I posted it last thread ;)

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:40:52am

re: #8 Gus 802

We gave up Aqua Net hair spray? What in the world?

Chlorofluorocarbons. But Aqua Net is still in production, all that happened was the regs about CFCs changes and they reformulated.

59 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:41:53am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

The Hamas truce goes as predicted...
Rockets fired from Gaza bombard Ashkelon, western Negev

Israel Air Force Identifies Terrorist Squad Firing from Cemetery in Sajaiya

[Video]

They're trying to provoke another massive retaliation from Israel, because they think with Mubarak gone they would get support from Egypt.

60 Ericus58  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:43:00am

re: #59 Charles

They're trying to provoke another massive retaliation from Israel, because they think with Mubarak gone they would get support from Egypt.

Kinda what the Ex-IAEA boob has stated if he was Egypt's next leader

61 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:44:18am

re: #56 zora

not trying to be a smart ass, but the treatment is for shock which is a medical condition and not surprise.

The term is "intellectual bully". /

Some of us appreciate facts being inserted into a discussion. Thanks.

62 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:44:52am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

The Hamas truce goes as predicted...
Rockets fired from Gaza bombard Ashkelon, western Negev

Israel Air Force Identifies Terrorist Squad Firing from Cemetery in Sajaiya

[Video]

imagine my surprise...

63 jaunte  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:45:27am

Reading some of the comments at the link, it looks like some people are working with radically different definitions of theory, science, and study:


Stewwie said..." As I noted above, Intelligent Design, is not "religion." Christianity is so much more than just the creation of the world. It is possible to believe in a created world without being a Christian. That said, schools wouldn't be "establishing a religion" just by offering this other viable theory inside the public classroom.

You asked, "Why teach other things besides science in a science class?" Because if you're going to learn about the study of life, then why just be limited to only what science has to offer? We're doing our kids a disservice by forcing them to believe this theory of evolution simply because it's the best science can come up with.

Just another reason why some parents have given up on public schools."

64 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:46:03am

re: #52 Naso Tang

Debka has more details. However I want to ask a question if someone is from Israel. Most reports of attacks with or without injury speak of people being treated for shock.

Now I don't trivialize the situation, but nobody is more used to the possibility of random attacks that Israelis and it seems somehow strange that people are routinely shocked even when not injured, to extent that they are treated for it, although I don't know what that treatment entails.

Is this a language thing?

I don't think it's a language thing. being close to a large explosion can really "ring your bell". People get disoriented and confused or do strange things like folding laundry while the house burns down, etc. I think they just take people in and help them get oriented so they don't hurt themselves while recovering.

65 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:46:42am

re: #52 Naso Tang

Debka has more details. However I want to ask a question if someone is from Israel. Most reports of attacks with or without injury speak of people being treated for shock.

Now I don't trivialize the situation, but nobody is more used to the possibility of random attacks that Israelis and it seems somehow strange that people are routinely shocked even when not injured, to extent that they are treated for it, although I don't know what that treatment entails.

Is this a language thing?

Concussion can cause physical shock which is similar to that caused in other forms of accident or injury. Even if there is no obvious physical injury an EMT should always start by treating for shock.

66 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:47:15am

re: #59 Charles

They're trying to provoke another massive retaliation from Israel, because they think with Mubarak gone they would get support from Egypt.

It's also a sign that they've already been getting help. They are restocked and ready to go again.

67 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:50:35am

re: #65 wlewisiii

Concussion can cause physical shock which is similar to that caused in other forms of accident or injury. Even if there is no obvious physical injury an EMT should always start by treating for shock.

Yep, which is why we've got so many vets come home from Iraq and Afghanistan with brain injuries due to IEDs. The blast wave is enough to cause all sorts of internal injuries.

68 The Yankee  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:51:00am

So one year ago Mrs. Butt would of not only failed Biology Class but also Chemistry.

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:51:51am

re: #52 Naso Tang

Debka has more details. However I want to ask a question if someone is from Israel. Most reports of attacks with or without injury speak of people being treated for shock.

Now I don't trivialize the situation, but nobody is more used to the possibility of random attacks that Israelis and it seems somehow strange that people are routinely shocked even when not injured, to extent that they are treated for it, although I don't know what that treatment entails.

Is this a language thing?

I'm not from Israel, but based on knowing a bunch of Israelis and reading the press, it's not really unusual. People have panic attacks in response to the sirens or the event triggers PTSD-type symptons. Older people have been known to have heart attacks in response to the stress--they've lost a few people that way. It's sort of a mild form of shell shock I suppose.

I expect it happens all over the world in war zones, but in Israel, the situation is close enough to stable that people get treatment. Treatment follows normal patterns for shock--get their feet up, make sure they're warm, put fluids in them.

70 The Yankee  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:56:08am

re: #29 Obdicut

American blacks certainly wouldn't be.

So I'm going to go with 'no'.

I am pretty sure that the independent southern states would manage to find away not treat woman, Catholics, Mormons, Jews, children, disabled, the poor, the Irish, Latinos and few others not as equals too.
And I bet you they would also be on the wrong side during WWII if in this alternate universe that still happens.

71 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:56:08am

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile, in Gaza...
[Link: www.daylife.com...]

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

All launches from heavily populated civilian areas.

Iron Dome intercepting rocket fired from Gaza by Palestinian Terrorists

[Video]

It must be a godly miracle, because, as Tennessee has informed us, physics simply isn't true.

72 zora  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:56:49am

have a good saturday, lizards. going to do much needed yard work.

73 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:57:39am

So, is it any wonder that we continue to fall further and further behind the rest of the world in education, including the much feared China, when they're working to modernize their education system and we're too busy converting ours back to the Middle Ages? What next, school boards demanding equal legitimacy be given to the Ptolemy model of the universe?

74 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:58:04am

Well, I've just been told to read Ibn Warraq, which is a great deal more annoying that being told to read my Bible.

75 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:59:03am

re: #73 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So, is it any wonder that we continue to fall further and further behind the rest of the world in education, including the much feared China, when they're working to modernize their education system and we're too busy converting ours back to the Middle Ages? What next, school boards demanding equal legitimacy be given to the Ptolemy model of the universe?

it's ok, they're just "asking questions"/

76 The Yankee  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 11:59:34am

re: #74 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I've just been told to read Ibn Warraq, which is a great deal more annoying that being told to read my Bible.

It could be worst, at least it is not Atlas Shrugs.

77 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:00:54pm

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

Absolutely. It really does not matter how many shocking events you have witnessed. I have heard of very experienced soldiers, during battle, having what they call, the '1000 yard stare'. Which i believe is a form of long term shock or acute stress reaction.

78 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:04:05pm

re: #74 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I've just been told to read Ibn Warraq, which is a great deal more annoying that being told to read my Bible.

I dunno. Numbers can be a pretty dry book...

79 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:14:59pm

Got two emails last night that LGF is causing Internet Explorer 7 to crash.

I had to uninstall IE8 in Windows Vista to revert to IE7, but when I finally got that to work, sure enough... IE7 crashes trying to load LGF.

I'll get Stinky to investigate.

80 JRCMYP  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:15:57pm

re: #32 b_sharp

There you go throwing facts at them. You cruel, cruel man.

He's just an intellectual bully. //

Get ready to hear that phrase over and over again from the right. I predict that Sarah Palin will start using it within the week.

81 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:19:41pm

Arizona un-slashed their budget for transplants:

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

82 Ericus58  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:20:49pm

Some of them poor folks, when facing the Intellectual Bully on the field of battle... find themselves unarmed.

83 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:21:36pm

re: #80 JRCMYP

I had no idea that intellectuals at schools was such a conflict of interest.

84 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:24:14pm

re: #81 Obdicut

Arizona un-slashed their budget for transplants:

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I think the phrase, "The real death panels" hurt 'em. Good to see them back away from one.

85 The Yankee  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:30:25pm

re: #84 wrenchwench

I think the phrase, "The real death panels" hurt 'em. Good to see them back away from one.

I am hoping that all those people who died and who are dying got to them and change their minds.

Strange how the party that identifies it's self as the Christian Party doesn't act christian.

86 Summer Lovin' Torture Party  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:31:46pm

I'd really, really, really, really like to say that I'm surprised by this ridiculous, fucktard nonsense, but, alas, I am not.

87 Achilles Tang  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:32:08pm

re: #80 JRCMYP

He's just an intellectual bully. //

Get ready to hear that phrase over and over again from the right. I predict that Sarah Palin will start using it within the week.


And then someone in the audience can ask whether it is the bully who is the intellectual, or the person being bullied?

88 Summer Lovin' Torture Party  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:32:56pm

re: #85 The Yankee

I am hoping that all those people who died and who are dying got to them and change their minds.

Strange how the party that identifies it's self as the Christian Party doesn't act christian.

The Founders were Christians! And conservatives, too!
//

89 jamesfirecat  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 12:39:58pm

///Now all we need is for a brave man to stand up and be willing to preach/teach creationism in science class... preferably in Dayton.

90 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:05:31pm

It's quiet...

91 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:06:56pm

PLEASE watch this exchange between Satan Himself Richard Dawkins and the president of Concerned Women for America. For a guy who has somehow garnered a reputation as "a dick", he seems remarkably patient here. I would have given up about 2 minutes in.

These people are teaching kids and writing laws.

92 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:07:33pm

re: #90 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"Jesus, Krieger, you still filming bum fights?"
"Now I'm into something...darker."

93 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:15:11pm

Since creo-liars claim their superstition is actually based on science rather than religion, they cannot claim discrimination if they are refused admission to certain colleges, denied employment, or even prohibited from living in certain neighborhoods.
It is not illegal to discriminate against people for being dishonest and stupid, though the right-wing will no doubt be demanding protection for these classes of persons in pretty short order.

94 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:20:06pm

Hey SFZ - just spoke with Dusty - asked us to stop reacting for now. Not a command of course, just a humble request.

95 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:23:54pm

I own a geological consulting business. I could not employ a young earth creationist because such a person would, by definition, believe that I am a criminal, a fool, and a charlatan. This is not conducive to a positive work environment.

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:24:01pm

re: #94 eclectic infidel

Hey SFZ - just spoke with Dusty - asked us to stop reacting for now. Not a command of course, just a humble request.

I'm OK with that.

I feel queasy, BTW.

97 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:27:54pm

I wonder if British diplomats feel a sudden urge to lapse into pidgin English when they visit a creo-infested state like Tennessee or Texas?

98 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:30:43pm

re: #95 Shiplord Kirel

I own a geological consulting business. I could not employ a young earth creationist because such a person would, by definition, believe that I am a criminal, a fool, and a charlatan. This is not conducive to a positive work environment.

they probably also are unlikely to major in geology! (i didn't meet any of them in my biology classes, either. more's the pity. they might learn something.)

99 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:32:04pm

IDF: Shalit abductor killed

Senior Hamas man involved in IDF soldier's abduction killed in Gaza strike, army says

Even though PZ Myers says it wrong to cheer....
Hooray!

100 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:35:38pm

re: #96 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm OK with that.

I feel queasy, BTW.

Something you consumed or..?

101 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:40:52pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

IDF: Shalit abductor killed

Even though PZ Myers says it wrong to cheer...
Hooray!

addition through subtraction!

102 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:46:51pm

re: #90 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It's quiet...

Too quiet.

103 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:50:29pm

re: #98 Aceofwhat?

they probably also are unlikely to major in geology! (i didn't meet any of them in my biology classes, either. more's the pity. they might learn something.)

It depends on the school. There are plenty of schools (Bob Jones, Liberty, etc.) that offer creationist oriented degrees in geo-science. I would prefer to call it geo-pseudoscience. Neither of the Christian colleges here in Lubbock, Lubbock Christian and Wayland Baptist, teaches creationism as science, though there is some ID agitation at both.

104 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:51:51pm

re: #102 b_sharp

Too quiet.

Something just doesn't feel right.

105 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:51:54pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

IDF: Shalit abductor killed

Even though PZ Myers says it wrong to cheer...
Hooray!

It would be nice if that meant Shalit was returned.

106 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:56:52pm

The last 30 seconds make it an ad. Watch the rest.

107 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:56:59pm

Time to post this again:

"Lorenzago di Cadore, Jul 26, 2007 / 09:52 am (CNA).- The debate between creationism and evolution is an “absurdity” since evolution can coexist with faith, said Pope Benedict XVI this week while vacationing in the mountains of northern Italy.

While there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory cannot exclude a role by God, he said according to MSNBC News.

“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the Pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”

However, evolution does not answer all of the great philosophical questions, he said, including: Where does everything come from?

The Pope’s comments came during a question and answer session with a group of 400 priests, deacons, and seminarians from the region where he is vacationing. In his responses he also spoke about the need to care for the Earth. He urged people to listen to “the voice of the Earth” or risk destroying its very existence.


Link.

108 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:57:25pm

re: #104 b_sharp

Something just doesn't feel right.

it's a trick. get an axe.

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:58:45pm

re: #100 eclectic infidel

Something you consumed or..?

No, just the state of the list.

110 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:59:17pm

re: #104 b_sharp

Something just doesn't feel right.

Anyone check to see if the Rapture has come? I didn't hear any crashing cars or the like but I might start calling Christians I know. Never hurts to be sure.

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 1:59:31pm

re: #107 Ojoe

Time to post this again:

"Lorenzago di Cadore, Jul 26, 2007 / 09:52 am (CNA).- The debate between creationism and evolution is an “absurdity” since evolution can coexist with faith, said Pope Benedict XVI this week while vacationing in the mountains of northern Italy.

While there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory cannot exclude a role by God, he said according to MSNBC News.

“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the Pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”

However, evolution does not answer all of the great philosophical questions, he said, including: Where does everything come from?

The Pope’s comments came during a question and answer session with a group of 400 priests, deacons, and seminarians from the region where he is vacationing. In his responses he also spoke about the need to care for the Earth. He urged people to listen to “the voice of the Earth” or risk destroying its very existence.

Link.

QFT

112 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:00:06pm

re: #110 Shiplord Kirel

Anyone check to see if the Rapture has come? I didn't hear any crashing cars or the like but I might start calling Christians I know. Never hurts to be sure.

A very devout Baptist just poked me back on Facebook, so I think we're OK on that one.

113 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:01:19pm

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

Truth converges, I have never understood why some people are afraid of it.

114 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:05:24pm

re: #109 SanFranciscoZionist

No, just the state of the list.

What is really bothering me - and I have to let this go b/c I have massive amounts of homework to do today for next week's cooking lab/class - is that we're being criticized for objecting to the white washing, and prejudiced implications with those off topic posts. It really seems that the instigator is purposely baiting us to get a negative reaction and then plays dumb when he's called on this.

I've been considering withdrawing for a few months now. Maybe this is the time to take a step back. Not sure.

115 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:06:51pm

re: #107 Ojoe

. . .
“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the Pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”

I really thought this issue had been settled decades ago. I'm always stunned to see it come up in such forceful ways. The good people of Tennessee are not doing their children any favors whatsoever.

116 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:07:04pm

re: #110 Shiplord Kirel

Anyone check to see if the Rapture has come? I didn't hear any crashing cars or the like but I might start calling Christians I know. Never hurts to be sure.

nah, i'm still here.

although a catholic co-worker and i had a gentle discussion with a protestant co-worker who believed in the rapture. nothing like politely asking those folks to point out exactly where in the Bible that concept originates from...it's a guilty pleasure of mine.

117 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:07:21pm

re: #115 reine.de.tout

I really thought this issue had been settled decades ago. I'm always stunned to see it come up in such forceful ways. The good people of Tennessee are not doing their children any favors whatsoever.

hi lady!!

118 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:07:50pm

re: #117 Aceofwhat?

hi lady!!

HEYA {{{ACE}}}
Where have you been?
Good to see you around.

119 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:11:34pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

HEYA {{{ACE}}}
Where have you been?
Good to see you around.

I rarely have time during the week (in Ohio) to log on and i rarely take time away from my family during the weekend (in Jax) to log on. So i'm a stranger lately...can't be helped.

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:12:48pm

re: #114 eclectic infidel

What is really bothering me - and I have to let this go b/c I have massive amounts of homework to do today for next week's cooking lab/class - is that we're being criticized for objecting to the white washing, and prejudiced implications with those off topic posts. It really seems that the instigator is purposely baiting us to get a negative reaction and then plays dumb when he's called on this.

I've been considering withdrawing for a few months now. Maybe this is the time to take a step back. Not sure.

Yeah. I feel as though, basically, I am saying "I cannot agree with this stuff, it seems bigoted to me. Perhaps we should not discuss this matter." What I get back is "You're a bigot for objecting. Read all these great anti-Muslim sources and you'll get it."

How tacky would it be to plead exhaustion and not attend tomorrow?

121 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:13:43pm

re: #119 Aceofwhat?

I rarely have time during the week (in Ohio) to log on and i rarely take time away from my family during the weekend (in Jax) to log on. So i'm a stranger lately...can't be helped.

And you're doing the right thing (FAMILY first!).
Still, you're missed and it's good to see you pop in

122 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:14:08pm

re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist

A very devout Baptist just poked me back on Facebook, so I think we're OK on that one.

Unless Baptists aren't included.

123 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:15:08pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. I feel as though, basically, I am saying "I cannot agree with this stuff, it seems bigoted to me. Perhaps we should not discuss this matter." What I get back is "You're a bigot for objecting. Read all these great anti-Muslim sources and you'll get it."

How tacky would it be to plead exhaustion and not attend tomorrow?

Not tacky. You're a volunteer participant. If life gets in the way, it gets in the way. I think it would behoove you to follow your instinct here.

124 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:16:17pm

re: #115 reine.de.tout

I really thought this issue had been settled decades ago. I'm always stunned to see it come up in such forceful ways. The good people of Tennessee are not doing their children any favors whatsoever.

Well, hilariously, this applies to the argument I'm having on another thread. Is 'real' Christianity this sensible Catholic approach, or is it the groups that want to be able to teach YEC thought in public school classrooms?

Is 'real Islam' the guys saying "The Koran demands you blow shit up," or the guys saying "The Koran demands you DO NOT BLOW SHIT UP!!!"?

I tend to take sides in these matters based on the outcome I would prefer. Others take sides according to the generalizations they wish to make.

(And only one person on this forum understands what the hell I am talking about, so perhaps I should stop taking up bandwidth.)

125 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:19:32pm

re: #122 b_sharp

Unless Baptists aren't included.

Well, how am I supposed to know who's included? Who gets to go in the Rapture, anyway? Is there a limit, like the 144,000 number that comes up, or is it just everyone who's sufficiently saved?

126 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:20:05pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, hilariously, this applies to the argument I'm having on another thread. Is 'real' Christianity this sensible Catholic approach, or is it the groups that want to be able to teach YEC thought in public school classrooms?

Is 'real Islam' the guys saying "The Koran demands you blow shit up," or the guys saying "The Koran demands you DO NOT BLOW SHIT UP!!!"?

I tend to take sides in these matters based on the outcome I would prefer. Others take sides according to the generalizations they wish to make.

(And only one person on this forum understands what the hell I am talking about, so perhaps I should stop taking up bandwidth.)

I like to tell YEC's that God is not a liar. Although i often tend to take a harder line against YEC Christians, being a Christian myself. I don't care if i offend them...

127 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:21:11pm

re: #122 b_sharp

Unless Baptists aren't included.

There is an intense rivalry between Baptists and the Churches of Christ in this area. Each accuses the other of various un-Christian practices. The rest of us can barely tell the difference, the only big one being that Baptists use musical instruments.

128 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:21:37pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, hilariously, this applies to the argument I'm having on another thread. Is 'real' Christianity this sensible Catholic approach, or is it the groups that want to be able to teach YEC thought in public school classrooms?

Is 'real Islam' the guys saying "The Koran demands you blow shit up," or the guys saying "The Koran demands you DO NOT BLOW SHIT UP!!!"?

I tend to take sides in these matters based on the outcome I would prefer. Others take sides according to the generalizations they wish to make.

(And only one person on this forum understands what the hell I am talking about, so perhaps I should stop taking up bandwidth.)

There have been enough hints that we can follow along...

I draw the line at people who are not members of a particular faith telling me the tenets of that faith with certainty. Especially if they contradict what members of that faith have told me.

I could make exceptions for known scholars of a faith, until I got burned by Robert Spencer.

129 reidr  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:22:45pm

re: #3 SpaceJesus

intellectual bullying? haha. you haven't seen that yet. wait till this goes to court, then we'll show you what intellectual meanie heads we can be.

It sounds awfully politically correct to have to shield these obvious half-wits from "bullying" by smarter folks. Darn Republican PC police!

130 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:22:50pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

I think it's interesting, keep typing.

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:23:19pm

re: #123 eclectic infidel

Not tacky. You're a volunteer participant. If life gets in the way, it gets in the way. I think it would behoove you to follow your instinct here.

Thanks. Needed to support. I've got work to do, a sore calf, and a feeling that I might spontaneously convert to Islam on the spot, right next to Lake Merritt (pity there's no concept of Baptism in Islam, or maybe lucky, considering the state of the lake), just to piss people off, which would be a really bad reason to convert to anything. Considering the shit various of my ancestors went through to avoid converting to various other faiths.

Everyone who wishes can show up, and if they want to walk around chanting 'bomb Iran' to the tune of 'Barbara Ann', that can be the Darfur Coalition's problem, not mine.

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:24:12pm

re: #126 Aceofwhat?

I like to tell YEC's that God is not a liar. Although i often tend to take a harder line against YEC Christians, being a Christian myself. I don't care if i offend them...

Yeah, in-house criticism tends to be harsher.

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:26:04pm

re: #127 Shiplord Kirel

There is an intense rivalry between Baptists and the Churches of Christ in this area. Each accuses the other of various un-Christian practices. The rest of us can barely tell the difference, the only big one being that Baptists use musical instruments.

My grandpa was baptized Church of Christ because his first wife was CoC. He later married my grandma and spent the rest of his life going to Mass with her.

He came from a good old Kansas tradition where the woman of the house picks the church, and your job is to put on a suit, make sure the kids wash behind their ears, and drive everyone there.

134 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:26:13pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, hilariously, this applies to the argument I'm having on another thread. Is 'real' Christianity this sensible Catholic approach, or is it the groups that want to be able to teach YEC thought in public school classrooms?

Is 'real Islam' the guys saying "The Koran demands you blow shit up," or the guys saying "The Koran demands you DO NOT BLOW SHIT UP!!!"?

I tend to take sides in these matters based on the outcome I would prefer. Others take sides according to the generalizations they wish to make.

(And only one person on this forum understands what the hell I am talking about, so perhaps I should stop taking up bandwidth.)

From what I've seen here, your instincts are better than the most of us, SFZ. and the outcome you desire is probably the one any godly person would desire.

The rapture people are really some funny folks. They might do well to remember the line about the last being first as well as the one about no one knowing the time.

135 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:26:17pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, hilariously, this applies to the argument I'm having on another thread. Is 'real' Christianity this sensible Catholic approach, or is it the groups that want to be able to teach YEC thought in public school classrooms?

Is 'real Islam' the guys saying "The Koran demands you blow shit up," or the guys saying "The Koran demands you DO NOT BLOW SHIT UP!!!"?

I tend to take sides in these matters based on the outcome I would prefer. Others take sides according to the generalizations they wish to make.

(And only one person on this forum understands what the hell I am talking about, so perhaps I should stop taking up bandwidth.)

There are no texts that demand you blow shit up, other than the Myth Buster NDA. That said, many texts urge followers to spread the 'truths' behind the texts and the acceptance of those as exclusive of other 'truths'. I think too many outsiders view this exclusivity in their own belief system as a validation of oppression and in other belief systems as a violent danger to their own.

A bit of critical thinking about their own belief system might cure them of this but part of their indoctrination is to not question their own beliefs.

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:26:46pm

re: #128 wrenchwench

There have been enough hints that we can follow along...

I draw the line at people who are not members of a particular faith telling me the tenets of that faith with certainty. Especially if they contradict what members of that faith have told me.

I could make exceptions for known scholars of a faith, until I got burned by Robert Spencer.

I think the problem with Spencer is that he's more 'known' than a scholar.

137 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:28:16pm

re: #125 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, how am I supposed to know who's included? Who gets to go in the Rapture, anyway? Is there a limit, like the 144,000 number that comes up, or is it just everyone who's sufficiently saved?

I think there is a set of rituals but since everybody claims their rituals are the right ones and they sometimes contradict, I guess you have to roll an unfair die.

138 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:30:26pm

re: #79 Charles

Got two emails last night that LGF is causing Internet Explorer 7 to crash.

I had to uninstall IE8 in Windows Vista to revert to IE7, but when I finally got that to work, sure enough... IE7 crashes trying to load LGF.

I'll get Stinky to investigate.

Charles, a virtual machine could really help in these situations. That way you can just run a VM for each of the configurations/browsers that you rarely use and never have to even touch the config of any of your installed OSes. And you can easily clone/backup VMs so altering a config and really screwing stuff up is basically a non-issue as well.

My dream is nearly here where OSes are reduced to the level of libraries. The future is now. :)

139 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:33:07pm

re: #137 b_sharp

I think there is a set of rituals but since everybody claims their rituals are the right ones and they sometimes contradict, I guess you have to roll an unfair die.

well, we should all approach God in the exact same way, since we're all exactly the same. seems obvious to me. now die, infidel!

140 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:33:28pm

re: #138 prononymous

Charles, a virtual machine could really help in these situations. That way you can just run a VM for each of the configurations/browsers that you rarely use and never have to even touch the config of any of your installed OSes. And you can easily clone/backup VMs so altering a config and really screwing stuff up is basically a non-issue as well.

My dream is nearly here where OSes are reduced to the level of libraries. The future is now. :)

The game is, how many different VMed OSes can you run simultaneously.
I'm up to 7, but I haven't installed many Linux versions yet.

141 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:33:44pm

re: #138 prononymous

Charles, a virtual machine could really help in these situations. That way you can just run a VM for each of the configurations/browsers that you rarely use and never have to even touch the config of any of your installed OSes. And you can easily clone/backup VMs so altering a config and really screwing stuff up is basically a non-issue as well.

My dream is nearly here where OSes are reduced to the level of libraries. The future is now. :)

is it mean to say that anyone using IE7 deserves their fate;)

142 Achilles Tang  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:35:25pm

re: #113 Ojoe

Truth converges, I have never understood why some people are afraid of it.

Truth does not converge, it diverges, to the path of truth.

143 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:35:36pm

re: #139 Aceofwhat?

well, we should all approach God in the exact same way, since we're all exactly the same. seems obvious to me. now die, infidel!

I'm still working on the Myth Busters text and just reached the book of Thermite.

144 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:36:48pm

re: #141 Aceofwhat?

is it mean to say that anyone using IE7 deserves their fate;)

Yes.
Updating to IE8 is free and automatic.

145 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:36:58pm

re: #143 b_sharp

I'm still working on the Myth Busters text and just reached the book of Thermite.

and three shall be the number to which thou shalt count...

146 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:38:26pm

re: #122 b_sharp

Unless Baptists aren't included.

All the monophysites just got raptured...and nobody noticed.

147 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:39:42pm

Thermite... heh. Me and my running buddy made some of that in a chemistry room at my Jr High. Lit it with a strip of magnesium.

Let me simply say that I truly believe that God has a special place in his heart for fools & idiots because a) I am still alive and b) the school did not burn down that day.

148 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:40:08pm

re: #146 prononymous

All the monophysites just got raptured...and nobody noticed.

Too metaphysical for me to understand.

149 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:40:18pm

re: #141 Aceofwhat?

is it mean to say that anyone using IE7 deserves their fate;)

No, it isn't mean.

It's intellectual bullying. ///

150 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:40:24pm

re: #146 prononymous

All the monophysites just got raptured...and nobody noticed.

Oh, damn, I laughed loud enough to scare a dead cat!

151 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:40:57pm

re: #148 b_sharp

Too metaphysical for me to understand.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

152 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:41:09pm

re: #115 reine.de.tout

I remember my dad making the same point that Benedict XVI is making there, except about in 1965.

I'm a geezer.

153 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:41:13pm

re: #150 wlewisiii

Oh, damn, I laughed loud enough to scare a dead cat!

Was it dead before or after the scare?

154 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:42:10pm

re: #151 prononymous

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

OK, OK, OK, you got me. I choose to not understand.

155 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:42:46pm

re: #153 b_sharp

Was it dead before or after the scare?

Let me ask Dr. Schrödinger...

156 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:44:06pm

re: #153 b_sharp

Was it dead before or after the scare?

yes

157 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:44:53pm

re: #154 b_sharp

OK, OK, OK, you got me. I choose to not understand.

As simple as I can make it: Unlike most Christians that believe Jesus had multiple natures (human and god) simultaneously. Monophysites believe that Jesus was of one nature, a blending of god and human. It is an idea that was mostly cast out of the early church and has been considered heresy since.

158 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:44:58pm

re: #142 Naso Tang

Except, paths there can be many, though Truth is what it is, and error can have much variety.

159 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:46:32pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, hilariously, this applies to the argument I'm having on another thread. Is 'real' Christianity this sensible Catholic approach, or is it the groups that want to be able to teach YEC thought in public school classrooms?

Is 'real Islam' the guys saying "The Koran demands you blow shit up," or the guys saying "The Koran demands you DO NOT BLOW SHIT UP!!!"?

I tend to take sides in these matters based on the outcome I would prefer. Others take sides according to the generalizations they wish to make.

(And only one person on this forum understands what the hell I am talking about, so perhaps I should stop taking up bandwidth.)

I'm not going to even try to answer what "real" Christianity is.

All I know is that it's my personal belief that it's a great insult to God and His greatness to ignore and dismiss the wonder of how life is created and develops, which is what happens when people refuse to use the sense God gave them (another insult) by ignoring/dismissing the science of our world.

160 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:46:35pm

re: #157 prononymous

As simple as I can make it: Unlike most Christians that believe Jesus had multiple natures (human and god) simultaneously. Monophysites believe that Jesus was of one nature, a blending of god and human. It is an idea that was mostly cast out of the early church and has been considered heresy since.

splitters!

161 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:47:07pm

re: #147 wlewisiii

Thermite... heh. Me and my running buddy made some of that in a chemistry room at my Jr High. Lit it with a strip of magnesium.

Let me simply say that I truly believe that God has a special place in his heart for fools & idiots because a) I am still alive and b) the school did not burn down that day.

I have a lathe and I make shit mostly out of aluminum and sometimes out of steel. I was throwing the, sometimes extremely fine, swarf into the same garbage container. That changed when I learned what Thermite was made from. Now I keep materials separate.

162 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:47:42pm

re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist

My grandpa, a Norwegian, married my grandma, an Irish Catholic, converted from Lutheran to Catholic and went fishing every Sunday anyway.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:48:26pm

re: #139 Aceofwhat?

well, we should all approach God in the exact same way, since we're all exactly the same. seems obvious to me. now die, infidel!

I was walking across a bridge, when I met a man who was preparing to jump off of it and end his life.

I said to him, "Don't jump! You have a lot to live for. God loves all of His children, and wants them to cling to the gift of life. We are all precious in the eyes of God. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes. I do."

"Me too!" I said. "Do you follow an organized religion?"

"I'm a Christian," he said.

"Me too!" I said. "Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?"

"I'm a Protestant."

"Me too!" I said. "What denomination?"

"I'm a Baptist."

"Me too!" I said. "Northern or Southern Baptist?"

"Northern Baptist."

"Me too!" I said. "Original Northern Baptist or Reformed Northern Baptist?"

"Reformed Northern Baptist."

"Me too!" I said. "Reformed Northern Baptist Missouri Synod, or Reformed Northern Baptist Wisconsin Synod?"

"Reformed Northern Baptist Missouri Synod."

"Me too!" I said. "Reformed Northern Baptist Missouri Synod Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Northern Baptist Missouri Synod Reformation of 1915?"

He said, "Reformed Northern Baptist Missouri Synod Reformaiton of 1915."

And I said "Die, heretic!" and I pushed him off the bridge.

164 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:49:25pm

re: #138 prononymous

Charles, a virtual machine could really help in these situations. That way you can just run a VM for each of the configurations/browsers that you rarely use and never have to even touch the config of any of your installed OSes. And you can easily clone/backup VMs so altering a config and really screwing stuff up is basically a non-issue as well.

My dream is nearly here where OSes are reduced to the level of libraries. The future is now. :)

That's what I already use. I have separate VMs for XP, Vista, and Windows 7, and I thought I had Explorer 6, 7, and 8 installed, respectively. But one of those automatic updates in the endless series of updates that happens nearly every time you boot up Windows went ahead and updated IE to version 8, in the Vista VM, without my knowledge. Hate it when that happens. That's why I had to uninstall version 8.

The IE7 crashing problem is very strange, though. I completely disabled all Javascript and that didn't fix it. Turned off ads, didn't fix it. The crash report says it's crashing in mshtml.dll, which suggests some bad HTML code, but the page validates perfectly with the WC3 validator.

Puzzling.

165 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:49:38pm

re: #157 prononymous

As simple as I can make it: Unlike most Christians that believe Jesus had multiple natures (human and god) simultaneously. Monophysites believe that Jesus was of one nature, a blending of god and human. It is an idea that was mostly cast out of the early church and has been considered heresy since.

You intellectual tyrant, you just forced me to learn something I didn't want to know. Now how am I ever going to get that out of my head? I could need the space for something more important you know.

166 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:49:39pm

OK, I know many of you follow BronxZoosCobra on twitter.

How many of you are checking out the we sing your tweets website she just linked? Hilarious!

[Link: wesingyourtweets.posterous.com...]

167 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:49:53pm

re: #134 wlewisiii

From what I've seen here, your instincts are better than the most of us, SFZ. and the outcome you desire is probably the one any godly person would desire.

The rapture people are really some funny folks. They might do well to remember the line about the last being first as well as the one about no one knowing the time.

Bingo.

168 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:51:32pm

re: #167 reine.de.tout

It is this May 21st.

Judgement day coming very soon.

169 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:52:34pm

re: #164 Charles

My faith is restored. All hail Charles!

I'm going to fall back on my conclusion that IE7 is heresy.

170 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:53:05pm

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

Two Orthodox Jews are stranded on a remote island for about a year. When they are finally rescued, the rescue team notices three separate buildings that had been constructed. When pressed about the structures, each of the Orthodox men spoke up:

Man #1: "That hut next to the cluster of palm trees, well, that's my synagogue."

Man #2: "That hut about 50 meters away, that's my synagogue."

The third structure? Both men answer in unison: "That's the synagogue that neither of us would be caught dead in."

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:53:19pm

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

I suspect that if the guy had just said he was a Lutheran, he might have gotten off that bridge alive.

172 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:54:10pm

re: #165 b_sharp

You intellectual tyrant, you just forced me to learn something I didn't want to know. Now how am I ever going to get that out of my head? I could need the space for something more important you know.

I'm dripping with useless trivia. :(

173 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:54:25pm

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

I suspect that if the guy had just said he was a Lutheran, he might have gotten off that bridge alive.

But Lex Luther was a really bad guy.

174 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:55:05pm

re: #170 eclectic infidel

There's a version of that joke with just one guy on the island too, but I don't remember it at the moment.

175 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:55:28pm

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

Around here, alas, we have those klnds of arguments for real between ELCA, Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Synod, & smaller ones (that consider the Wisconsin synod too liberal) varieties of Lutheran. Anglicans are going that way too because some think we're loving teh Gheys too much and splitting off as a result.

176 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:55:42pm

re: #173 b_sharp

Kept a whole city imprisoned in a bottle.

177 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:55:48pm

re: #172 prononymous

I'm dripping with useless trivia. :(

I was wondering what that goo was.

You'd get along well with the wife.

She has stuff in her head she doesn't know she has until she watches Jeopardy.

178 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:58:16pm

haha - the cobra no longer has access to twitter!

CBSNews CBS News
Former snake on the loose Mia the Cobra (a.k.a. #BronxZoosCobra) put on display in Bronx Zoo w/o access to Twitter :( [Link: bit.ly...]

179 Amory Blaine  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:59:00pm

All the statements in the article hint at a strange sort of revenge. These people are sick.

180 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 2:59:04pm

re: #177 b_sharp

That's great! Actual physical contact! Can you move?

181 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:00:47pm

re: #180 prononymous

That's great! Actual physical contact! Can you move?

No, the ropes are too tight.
Can you reach the knife in my back pocket?

182 freetoken  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:02:00pm

Here's a new story: evolutionists striking deep into creationist territory - Alabama!

Evolutionary studies emerge on UA campus

UA is one of just four universities in the world to offer a minor in evolutionary studies, and the only flagship state university to offer such a program. So far, 10 students have chosen the program as their minor and another group of close to 50 students has shown interest in an evolutionary studies club.

“We get kids that come to this program because they've heard of this ‘theory' but they never heard anything about evolution in high school,” Christopher Lynn, assistant professor of anthropology and one of program's organizers.

[...]

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:03:59pm

Another rambling Soviet-era joke that has nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with culture:

Scientists set up an experiment in which they take four groups, each consisting of two men and a woman, and leave each of them on a small deserted island for three months. One group is French, one is English, one is Spanish, and one is Russian.

When they return, the scientists visit the French island, and find one of the men, working in a small, beautiful garden. "Where's the other two?" they ask.

"In bed," he says. "We worked it all out. The first month, he was her lover, and I got the garden started. Then, the second month, I was her lover, and he worked on the garden. Now we've switched back again. It's going beautifully."

The scientists thank him, and move on to the English island, where they find the three subjects have each moved to a different corner of the island. "What's up?" they ask one of the men. "Are you guys not getting along?"

"I have no idea," the man tells them. "You forgot to introduce us, so we can't speak to each other."

They thank him and proceed to the Spanish island, where they find the woman, alone, wearing black. "Where are the men?" they ask.

"Those fools killed each other fighting over me," she says. "They're buried over there."

Slightly shaken, the scientists sail to the fourth island, and find the two Russian men sitting on the beach, playing chess. "Where's the woman?" the scientists ask.

"The people," one man tells them, with a dismissive wave of his hand, "Are in the fields, working."

184 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:04:19pm

re: #181 b_sharp

No, the ropes are too tight.
Can you reach the knife in my back pocket?

Sounds familiar but I can't place it...

185 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:04:47pm
186 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:08:24pm

re: #185 Fozzie Bear

lol

GOP Completely Fixes Economy By Canceling Funding For NPR

oh, hey. a few days ago when we were talking, you mentioned something about productivity...i wasn't sure what you meant by it. i'd be interested in a longer explanation if you have the energy.

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:11:39pm
189 freetoken  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:12:56pm

re: #187 Stanley Sea

THERE IT IS!! Over his right ear - THE SCAR!! OMG THEY TOOK OUT HIS BRAIN HES NOW A MACHINE!!!

190 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:13:05pm

re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist

Heaven is a place where the police are British, the mechanics are German, the lovers are French, the chefs are Italian, and the whole thing is organized by the Swiss.

Hell is a place where the police are German, the mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss, the chefs are British, and the whole thing is organized by the Italians.

/badda-boom badda-bing
//what, I amuse you like a clown I amuse you?

191 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:17:11pm

re: #189 freetoken

THERE IT IS!! Over his right ear - THE SCAR!! OMG THEY TOOK OUT HIS BRAIN HES NOW A MACHINE!!!

"Can you put it in a person's brain?"
(pause) "It'd suffocate."
"Not the rabbit, you idiot - the chip.
"Oh yes, absolutely."
"Without killing the person?
"Oh. Mmmaybe?"

192 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:17:13pm

re: #187 Stanley Sea

Check out these photos of Obama @ the Lincoln Memorial today

The one with the little girl in blue is very cute.

193 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:17:48pm

re: #190 negativ

Holy Roman Emperor Charles V is reputed to have said:

"I speak French to other men, Spanish to God, Italian to women, and German to my horse."

194 engineer cat  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:18:12pm

re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist

i got this joke from an old fashioned Book of Humorous Anecdotes

the nations of the world had a competition to see who could write the best book on the subject of The Elephant

the french submitted a perfumed volume of elephant love poetry

the spanish produced a book about fighting with elephants

the italians created the definitive elephant cookbook

the germans published a 9 volume encyclopedia of diseases of elephant's ears

and the american submission? 'Building Bigger and Better Elephants'

195 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:19:26pm
196 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:21:36pm

re: #187 Stanley Sea

Check out these photos of Obama @ the Lincoln Memorial today

Very cool. Those people seem pretty excited. I wonder how much of a toll it takes on Presidents to live in that bubble. Never a moment alone, always surrounded by guards, you can't go anywhere without advance planing and notice. Even in the private quarters of the White House there are secret service never more than 30-40 feet away. It has to be a strange way to live.

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:22:59pm

re: #196 Killgore Trout

Very cool. Those people seem pretty excited. I wonder how much of a toll it takes on Presidents to live in that bubble. Never a moment alone, always surrounded by guards, you can't go anywhere without advance planing and notice. Even in the private quarters of the White House there are secret service never more than 30-40 feet away. It has to be a strange way to live.

God knows, nothing I would ever want to do.

198 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:23:28pm

re: #188 SanFranciscoZionist

Of topic, but I have an atlas from National Geographic showing the Middle East, and the religious distribution, among other things. I noticed that a) National Geographic considers the Wahhabis a completely different subset of Islam from Shia and Sunni and b) They are only the Majority in the Middle 2/3rds or so. The Shia are big in the Persian Gulf area, while Mainline Sunnis are still holding on in Mecca, Medina, and the Hijaz. I wonder if a joined rebellion of those two could be enough to topple.

The site I quoted from earlier in regards to Wahhabi hate of logic referred to the area it came from, the Nejd, as a backwater. This is from an explicitly Muslim organization, so this is hopeful.

199 darthstar  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:24:04pm

How's this for stupid. The asshole who smashed my window and rifled through the console - stealing my work mobile phone - left the cash that I had in there next to it. Is the US dollar in that bad of shape that thieves won't take it?

200 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:24:19pm

re: #187 Stanley Sea

Check out these photos of Obama @ the Lincoln Memorial today

I'm curious to see what his poll numbers look like after all this.

201 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:25:11pm

re: #197 SanFranciscoZionist

God knows, nothing I would ever want to do.

It might be kind of fun for the kids. They probably aren't aware of the media attention and they get all those rides in Airforce One, helicopters, visit foreign palaces, etc.

202 engineer cat  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:25:42pm

re: #170 eclectic infidel

20 years ago i had a hungarian girlfriend - she told me this brezhnev era hungarian joke (ya, great, fine, sure, taal my jokes and make fon of hongorians vy don't you, great!)

god announces that he has had it with humanity and in two weeks the world will be submerged under the oceans

in the ussr, brezhnev exhorts the country: "comrades, we have only two weeks to build communism!"

in the united states, nixon encourages everybody to have fun and spend as much as possible in the remaining time

in israel, golda meir makes a speech announcing "fellow israelis - we have two weeks to learn how to breathe underwater!"

(vot? it's suppozed to be a good thing ve are saying about the jews! you are too sanzitive!)

203 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:26:13pm

re: #186 Aceofwhat?

oh, hey. a few days ago when we were talking, you mentioned something about productivity...i wasn't sure what you meant by it. i'd be interested in a longer explanation if you have the energy.

I don't have much time or energy right now, really, it's a long tangent. The ridiculously abridged version is that I was going to draw both a distinction and a connection between the "use-value" and "exchange-value" of goods and services using productivity and fixed capital as the intermediaries. It's Marxist theory, discussed at length in Das Kapital.

The observation at the heart of it is this: As technology advances, the productivity of workers increases as a result. Why doesn't the use-value of the goods obtainable using the capital gained from exchanging labor for capital increase as productivity increases? (The answer is long and hairy, but illuminates the critical flaw in capitalism.) The point is that federal tax policy can effectively address this problem, but it requires (in a democracy) that the electorate have some understanding of why the things that must be done to stabilize the economy are necessary.

It would also fatally derail the thread. Perhaps a rain check?

204 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:27:15pm

re: #199 darthstar

How's this for stupid. The asshole who smashed my window and rifled through the console - stealing my work mobile phone - left the cash that I had in there next to it. Is the US dollar in that bad of shape that thieves won't take it?

Maybe the person who smashed your window wasn't after anything other than the phone.

*cue spooky music*

205 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:27:42pm

re: #203 Fozzie Bear

I don't have much time or energy right now, really, it's a long tangent. The ridiculously abridged version is that I was going to draw both a distinction and a connection between the "use-value" and "exchange-value" of goods and services using productivity and fixed capital as the intermediaries. It's Marxist theory, discussed at length in Das Kapital.

The observation at the heart of it is this: As technology advances, the productivity of workers increases as a result. Why doesn't the use-value of the goods obtainable using the capital gained from exchanging labor for capital increase as productivity increases? (The answer is long and hairy, but illuminates the critical flaw in capitalism.) The point is that federal tax policy can effectively address this problem, but it requires (in a democracy) that the electorate have some understanding of why the things that must be done to stabilize the economy are necessary.

It would also fatally derail the thread. Perhaps a rain check?

rain check granted. anytime, friend bear.

206 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:27:57pm

re: #196 Killgore Trout

Very cool. Those people seem pretty excited. I wonder how much of a toll it takes on Presidents to live in that bubble. Never a moment alone, always surrounded by guards, you can't go anywhere without advance planing and notice. Even in the private quarters of the White House there are secret service never more than 30-40 feet away. It has to be a strange way to live.

[Link: theobamadiary.com...]

Here's a better site, with 2 videos. The people there were VERY excited. I guess it would be the ultimate DC visit if you could fist bump the President of the US.

207 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:28:24pm

re: #198 ProLifeLiberal

What did it say about the Sufis, who are more or less the Hippies of Islam?

They need to replay the summers of 1967 and 1968 in that part of the world.

208 darthstar  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:30:28pm

re: #204 Fozzie Bear

Maybe the person who smashed your window wasn't after anything other than the phone.

*cue spooky music*

I just think the caliber of thieves has really dropped in recent years. America used to be NUMBER ONE!!11ty! at everything. I blame Obama.
//

209 engineer cat  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:30:29pm

re: #174 Ojoe

There's a version of that joke with just one guy on the island too, but I don't remember it at the moment.

if there is only one republican on a deserted island, should be give himself a break for being a job producer who's creating wealth, or refuse to give himself any breaks because he's a worker who would only be incentivized to be lazy and stay on unemployment, food stamps, or welfare?

210 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:30:37pm

re: #206 Stanley Sea

[Link: theobamadiary.com...]

Here's a better site, with 2 videos. The people there were VERY excited. I guess it would be the ultimate DC visit if you could fist bump the President of the US.

I lived in DC for a while. Just seeing the motorcade is electrifying. The energy is tangible. I got to meet Bush I when he was VP.

211 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:30:47pm

re: #203 Fozzie Bear

I would love to read about that too.

212 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:32:13pm

re: #209 engineer dog

Robinson Crusoe's quandary until Friday came along.

213 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:32:58pm

re: #209 engineer dog

if there is only one republican on a deserted island, should be give himself a break for being a job producer who's creating wealth, or refuse to give himself any breaks because he's a worker who would only be incentivized to be lazy and stay on unemployment, food stamps, or welfare?

if there's only one democrat on a deserted island, do they strike to protest the unfair conditions?

214 engineer cat  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:33:45pm

re: #186 Aceofwhat?

re: #203 Fozzie Bear

or more briefly - if you are an employee, any gain in productivity is likely to have come in the form of a bite taken directly out of your ass

215 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:34:22pm

re: #199 darthstar

That sucks.re: #204 Fozzie Bear

Maybe the person who smashed your window wasn't after anything other than the phone.

*cue spooky music*

Has anybody seen "Insidious" yet? Maybe Tenn Rs' could be haunted into common sense.

216 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:35:04pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

But according to multiple commentators at the Huffington Post, Israel is still an evil occupier. [growls]

217 Tigger2005  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:35:34pm

www.sheilabutt.com. and [Link: www.sheilabuttstaterep.com....] It's the same person.

218 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:35:35pm

re: #214 engineer dog

re: #203 Fozzie Bear

or more briefly - if you are an employee, any gain in productivity is likely to have come in the form of a bite taken directly out of your ass

so...there's a productivity gain, and as a result, the employees are yelled at and told they'll be sorry if they do it again?

219 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:37:01pm

Is there a special way to post amazon links here? Or can I just link it and Charles still gets the reference?

220 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:37:05pm

re: #216 Dark_Falcon

But according to multiple commentators at the Huffington Post, Israel is still an evil occupier. [growls]

Yeah, it's a lefty thing. Our lefty lizards are going to be pretty disgusted with us old timers if there's another Cast Lead operation. Warm up the Rooster Cam.

221 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:37:27pm

re: #213 Aceofwhat?

if there's only one democrat on a deserted island, do they strike to protest the unfair conditions?

The democrat in such a situation would build a desk, then draft a founding document for a bureaucracy, build a hut to be the headquarters of this new agency, appoint a crab to be secretary of island affairs, then gather food and eat it. He would survive, but he would spend half his life on the island filling out forms made of reeds which he then files meticulously.

222 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:37:59pm

re: #219 prononymous

Is there a special way to post amazon links here? Or can I just link it and Charles still gets the reference?

Yup. You could even make a page for the product and chose the category " Bargains"

223 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:38:33pm

re: #221 Fozzie Bear

The democrat in such a situation would build a desk, then draft a founding document for a bureaucracy, build a hut to be the headquarters of this new agency, appoint a crab to be secretary of island affairs, then gather food and eat it. He would survive, but he would spend half his life on the island filling out forms made of reeds which he then files meticulously.

nicely done

224 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:38:33pm

re: #209 engineer dog

if there is only one republican on a deserted island, should be give himself a break for being a job producer who's creating wealth, or refuse to give himself any breaks because he's a worker who would only be incentivized to be lazy and stay on unemployment, food stamps, or welfare?

The corallary is: How does a Democrat stay alive on a desert island, being without social programs to live off?

/It's intended as a semi-satire counter. Dems aren't really that bad, neither are Republicans.

225 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:38:42pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

Yeah, it's a lefty thing. Our lefty lizards are going to be pretty disgusted with us old timers if there's another Cast Lead operation. Warm up the Rooster Cam.

Meaning an attack from Israel?

226 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:38:58pm

re: #216 Dark_Falcon

But according to multiple commentators at the Huffington Post, Israel is still an evil occupier. [growls]

Well, those commentators can go fuck themselves.

227 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:39:31pm

re: #223 Aceofwhat?

nicely done

He would also have to give every fourth coconut he finds to the crab.

228 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:39:39pm

re: #222 Killgore Trout

Yup. You could even make a page for the product and chose the category " Bargains"

I just wanted to post a link to a book that all this deserted island talk made me think of, but I wanted to do it right.

229 engineer cat  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:39:43pm

re: #218 Aceofwhat?

so...there's a productivity gain, and as a result, the employees are yelled at and told they'll be sorry if they do it again?

not really - i'll tell you a story: at one job management made a big fuss about its "continuous improvement initiative". the message was clearly received that we needed to show that we enthusiastically embraced this initiative and would show concrete evidence of how we were working more efficiently

as a reward, some of us got $25 free lunch coupons at the nearest applebees. a friend of mine opened his desk drawer and showed me three of them and said, "yeah, i've been working so hard trying to improve my productivity that i haven't had time to use them"

230 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:40:38pm

re: #225 prairiefire

Meaning an attack from Israel?

That's the way the wind is blowing.

231 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:40:39pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

Yeah, it's a lefty thing. Our lefty lizards are going to be pretty disgusted with us old timers if there's another Cast Lead operation. Warm up the Rooster Cam.

I'm not so sure. Obdicut is rock solid when it comes to Israel, so is Gus. One thing about LGF that has never changed is its pro-Israel and pro-IDF majority and host.

232 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:41:06pm

re: #221 Fozzie Bear

The democrat in such a situation would build a desk, then draft a founding document for a bureaucracy, build a hut to be the headquarters of this new agency, appoint a crab to be secretary of island affairs, then gather food and eat it. He would survive, but he would spend half his life on the island filling out forms made of reeds which he then files meticulously.

The crab would fill several department positions with relatives. Then hire seagulls to be in charge of waste removal.
Mmmm, forms.

233 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:41:44pm

re: #230 SanFranciscoZionist

That's the way the wind is blowing.

Hamas is clearly asking for it. Netanyahu is determined to force them to back off, and he's willing to push hard to do so.

234 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:41:55pm

re: #230 SanFranciscoZionist

That's the way the wind is blowing.

As a nation state, they need to protect themselves.

235 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:43:15pm

re: #229 engineer dog

not really - i'll tell you a story: at one job management made a big fuss about its "continuous improvement initiative". the message was clearly received that we needed to show that we enthusiastically embraced this initiative and would show concrete evidence of how we were working more efficiently

as a reward, some of us got $25 free lunch coupons at the nearest applebees. a friend of mine opened his desk drawer and showed me three of them and said, "yeah, i've been working so hard trying to improve my productivity that i haven't had time to use them"

well, that's dumb. increased output / increased time = 0 productivity increase.

at every place i've worked, a productivity improvement as a result of an improved scheme or piece of equipment = a productivity improvement.

a productivity improvement as a result of an employee's efforts or suggestions = a productivity improvement and a bonus (or larger-than-usual raise) for the employee.

not sure why that's so awful.

236 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:43:26pm

re: #225 prairiefire

Meaning an attack from Israel?

Yeah, I just checked and it's actually looking pretty likely...
Labor's Herzog: Israel close to retaking Gaza

Lieberman wants to topple Hamas

Yisrael Beiteinu to demand that toppling of Hamas rule in Gaza be designated a 'strategic target'



Aharonovitch: No one is immune in Gaza

I think the ramp up to Cast Lead took about 2-3 weeks from what I recall. Israel may go into Gaza within a month.

237 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:44:21pm

re: #235 Aceofwhat?

sorry, engineer dog - dumb on the company's part, not you or your friend's part. that might not have been clear.

238 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:44:48pm

re: #231 Dark_Falcon

I'm not so sure. Obdicut is rock solid when it comes to Israel, so is Gus. One thing about LGF that has never changed is its pro-Israel and pro-IDF majority and host.

A lot of our newer Lizards may not be as supportive. They probably avoid the debate because it can get ugly pretty quick.

239 engineer cat  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:45:59pm

re: #235 Aceofwhat?

well, that's dumb. increased output / increased time = 0 productivity increase.

at every place i've worked, a productivity improvement as a result of an improved scheme or piece of equipment = a productivity improvement.

a productivity improvement as a result of an employee's efforts or suggestions = a productivity improvement and a bonus (or larger-than-usual raise) for the employee.

not sure why that's so awful.

the problem is that the employer in your reply who gives a proportionate reward to their employee for the extra effort leading to increased profits for the company is not as common as one might desire

240 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:47:05pm

re: #221 Fozzie Bear

The democrat in such a situation would build a desk, then draft a founding document for a bureaucracy, build a hut to be the headquarters of this new agency, appoint a crab to be secretary of island affairs, then gather food and eat it. He would survive, but he would spend half his life on the island filling out forms made of reeds which he then files meticulously.

Who'd we leave on the island, Hermes Conrad?

241 Tigger2005  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:47:18pm

www.sheilabutt.com
www.sheilabuttstaterep.com

Same person.

242 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:48:34pm

re: #241 Tigger2005

www.sheilabutt.com
www.sheilabuttstaterep.com

Same person.

She's a thumper.

243 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:49:04pm

re: #180 prononymous

That's great! Actual physical contact! Can you move?

The bitch hit me with a toaster...

/Scrooged

244 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:50:08pm

re: #241 Tigger2005

www.sheilabutt.com
www.sheilabuttstaterep.com

Same person.

Her page buttons look like maxi-pads.

245 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:50:39pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

A lot of our newer Lizards may not be as supportive. They probably avoid the debate because it can get ugly pretty quick.

I'll be plenty honest in this regard. I don't support every single action Israel has taken or every single policy.

With that said, Jewish people strike me as very, um, practical and reasonable people. If there is a problem I am sure they would be open to talking and thinking about it, in the right circumstances. But as long as Palestinians are exposing their children and each other to absolutely sick propaganda and a cultural acceptance of terrorism as a tool I feel that discussing any issues Israel might have is entirely pointless and futile.

246 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:51:16pm

re: #244 Stanley Sea

Her page buttons look like maxi-pads.

Without wings. Not what one would expect from a member of the religious right.

247 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:51:25pm

re: #239 engineer dog

the problem is that the employer in your reply who gives a proportionate reward to their employee for the extra effort leading to increased profits for the company is not as common as one might desire

perhaps not, yet common enough to make your concern an item to be rectified in certain organizations rather than proof that Marx was right.

248 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:52:05pm

re: #244 Stanley Sea

Her page buttons look like maxi-pads.

eww

249 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:52:24pm

re: #207 Ojoe

There omni-present, but don't make up a majority anywhere. From Sandmonkey, I know the Sufis make up 15-20% of Egypt, but that's the extent of my knowledge.

Going through a cultural 60's may not be necessary. Metal is fairly popular among people my age in the Middle East. There's a book called Heavy Metal Islam that I would read.

250 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:52:52pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

A lot of our newer Lizards may not be as supportive. They probably avoid the debate because it can get ugly pretty quick.

I can't really blame the avoiders, although I wish they would engage. I have a sister who thinks Israel is to blame for the problems of the Palestinians, and she avoids the topic with me. I want to see what information can change a person's mind, so I can try putting that information in front of my sister.

251 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:53:20pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

A lot of our newer Lizards may not be as supportive. They probably avoid the debate because it can get ugly pretty quick.

Then it'll get ugly. I won't back down:

252 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:57:08pm

re: #249 ProLifeLiberal

I think they need music like the Beatles & Donovan & teh Grateful Dead more than Heavy Metal, but any would be good.

253 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:57:19pm

The book, if it is the one I was thinking about is: An Island to Oneself by Tom Neale. Neat story about living on a deserted island.

254 ozbloke  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:59:36pm

re: #199 darthstar

How's this for stupid. The asshole who smashed my window and rifled through the console - stealing my work mobile phone - left the cash that I had in there next to it. Is the US dollar in that bad of shape that thieves won't take it?

I'm thinking it was a teenage girl.
They can't stand to hear a phone ring and not answer it.

255 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 3:59:41pm
256 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:01:11pm

re: #246 b_sharp

Without wings. Not what one would expect from a member of the religious right.

So says a married man.

257 webevintage  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:05:41pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

A lot of our newer Lizards may not be as supportive. They probably avoid the debate because it can get ugly pretty quick.

I avoid the debate because I am a total moron when it comes to the Middle East, but do support Israel and what they have to do to exist and be safe.

258 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:06:56pm

re: #250 wrenchwench

I can't really blame the avoiders, although I wish they would engage. I have a sister who thinks Israel is to blame for the problems of the Palestinians, and she avoids the topic with me. I want to see what information can change a person's mind, so I can try putting that information in front of my sister.

History & accurately reported events.

L'il Miss Conservative moi was at one time a lot more sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians (as were my parents). Access to accurately reported events makes a huge difference.

259 engineer cat  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:07:44pm

re: #247 Aceofwhat?

perhaps not, yet common enough to make your concern an item to be rectified in certain organizations rather than proof that Marx was right.

i'm not going to speak for marx.

however, consider these rather capitalist considerations: for one thing, if there were real profit sharing in a company, all employees would be incentivized to increase profits. yet, if this were so, it would be harder for stockholders to make as much profit, so profit sharing, however much sense it makes in terms of capitalist theory, is rather rare.

consider, also, that the dynamics of capitalism are not affected only by the actions of employers and consumers, but by employees as well. so, good employees tend to drift away from employers who try to maximize profits at the expense of their employees - but only to the degree that the job market allows it

260 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:08:12pm

re: #257 webevintage

I avoid the debate because I am a total moron when it comes to the Middle East, but do support Israel and what they have to do to exist and be safe.

That's good enough.

261 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:10:04pm

re: #250 wrenchwench

I can't really blame the avoiders, although I wish they would engage. I have a sister who thinks Israel is to blame for the problems of the Palestinians, and she avoids the topic with me. I want to see what information can change a person's mind, so I can try putting that information in front of my sister.

I was here on lgf for years before I felt comfortable engaging the the Israel debate. It can be intimidating but I learned a lot.. Unfortunately a lot of people come to the debate with bogus/distorted facts or buzzwords that give them away which can result it a pretty sever fact checking.
If there is another Israeli incursion into Gaza I do think it will inspire more people to join the debate.

262 engineer cat  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:12:17pm

re: #247 Aceofwhat?

perhaps not, yet common enough to make your concern an item to be rectified in certain organizations rather than proof that Marx was right.

consider, also, that the first responsibility - under law! - of those managing a corporation is to maximize profits for stockholders

however much we desire to operate under our existing economic system, and i am definitely not suggesting any other, it must be realized that this overriding imperative of corporations is not the same as an incentive to make businesses operate in a way that leads to the greater good of us all

263 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:12:32pm

re: #261 Killgore Trout

I was here on lgf for years before I felt comfortable engaging the the Israel debate. It can be intimidating but I learned a lot.. Unfortunately a lot of people come to the debate with bogus/distorted facts or buzzwords that give them away which can result it a pretty sever fact checking.
If there is another Israeli incursion into Gaza I do think it will inspire more people to join the debate.

And hopefully it'll cut Hamas down to size.

264 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:14:51pm

re: #258 reine.de.tout

History & accurately reported events.

L'il Miss Conservative moi was at one time a lot more sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians (as were my parents). Access to accurately reported events makes a huge difference.

The trick is to be clear about which sources are accurate. I don't think she takes my opinion as fact. I think she's still reading "Electronic Intifada".

I should probably forget about having an impact on the politics of my family members. I'm too much of a heretic to them already.

265 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:15:12pm

re: #263 Dark_Falcon

And hopefully it'll cut Hamas down to size.

Hopefully, but I don't think it's likely. Like last time it will temporarily limit their capabilities and Hamas will resupply and start again in a year or two. I don;t think Israel wants to occupy Gaza again so they;ll go in and get out. Rinse, Lather, Repeat.

266 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:20:42pm

re: #245 prononymous

I'll be plenty honest in this regard. I don't support every single action Israel has taken or every single policy.

With that said, Jewish people strike me as very, um, practical and reasonable people. If there is a problem I am sure they would be open to talking and thinking about it, in the right circumstances. But as long as Palestinians are exposing their children and each other to absolutely sick propaganda and a cultural acceptance of terrorism as a tool I feel that discussing any issues Israel might have is entirely pointless and futile.

Nobody supports every single action Israel has taken. (Trust me on this. I remember the days of the pullout from Gaza.)

I'm entirely happy to debate any damn thing Israel does or doesn't do, or should do, until the cows come home, so long as it's backed up with some understanding of the situation as a whole.

267 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:20:50pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

A lot of our newer Lizards may not be as supportive. They probably avoid the debate because it can get ugly pretty quick.

I'd have to agree with you there. I don't consider myself to be either pro- or anti-Israel (or Palestinian for that matter) becuase, as I've stated numerous times, I don't really have a good understanding of the situation. I'm certainly against terrorism, but that hardly qualifies me as pro-Israel. I'm working on filling in the knowledge that I lack, but it's going to take time as I intend to look into both sides of the story as fully as possible.

It does indeed get ugly here when the subject comes up, so, yeah, I'll one of those be staying away if comes up as I don't find strong emotional reactions particularly useful (that includes my own emotional reactions).

That being said, I guess this is as good a time as any to bring this up since no one is angry at the moment: One thing that does puzzle me is the strong attachment some people have to Israel. Obviously, I'm not surprised when Jews—regardless of how secular or religious they are—having a strong attachment to Israel. Ditto for people who have friends or family that are impacted by events there. But the rest...? *shrugs in bewilderment*

There is terror and slaughter and genocide going on all the time in the world, but it doesn't seem that the same people feels as strongly about those instances as they do when it happens in Israel. I'm not criticizing anyone—as I said, I just find it puzzling.

So there you have it. Fire away.

268 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:21:19pm

re: #254 ozbloke

I'm thinking it was a teenage girl.
They can't stand to hear a phone ring and not answer it.

But taking the money would be WRONG?

269 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:21:59pm

re: #264 wrenchwench

The trick is to be clear about which sources are accurate. I don't think she takes my opinion as fact. I think she's still reading "Electronic Intifada".

I should probably forget about having an impact on the politics of my family members. I'm too much of a heretic to them already.

Besides which, it's unlikely they'll listen to you anyway.

No matter HOW many times I tell my librul brother that I do NOT watch FoxNews, every time I try to have a political discussion with him, he dismisses me with, "I know you're getting that from Fox . . .". It's never sunk in with him that I actually, you know, think about things entirely on my own.

270 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:22:49pm

re: #259 engineer dog

i'm not going to speak for marx.

however, consider these rather capitalist considerations: for one thing, if there were real profit sharing in a company, all employees would be incentivized to increase profits. yet, if this were so, it would be harder for stockholders to make as much profit, so profit sharing, however much sense it makes in terms of capitalist theory, is rather rare.

consider, also, that the dynamics of capitalism are not affected only by the actions of employers and consumers, but by employees as well. so, good employees tend to drift away from employers who try to maximize profits at the expense of their employees - but only to the degree that the job market allows it

excellent considerations.

at publicly held companies, profit sharing (where it exists) takes the form of company stock. that way, employees are incentivized to work diligently and shareholders tend not to feel 'penalized'.

cash profit sharing is far more prevalent at privately-held companies. don't forget about them.

271 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:23:32pm

re: #264 wrenchwench

BTW, thanks for mentioning the other that the "Return after posting reply" thing wasn't working for you any more. I never even realized it existed till you pointed it out. Nice feature.

272 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:23:57pm

re: #262 engineer dog

consider, also, that the first responsibility - under law! - of those managing a corporation is to maximize profits for stockholders

however much we desire to operate under our existing economic system, and i am definitely not suggesting any other, it must be realized that this overriding imperative of corporations is not the same as an incentive to make businesses operate in a way that leads to the greater good of us all

This is where regulations and personal injury lawyers come in.

If we pass laws that make polluting very expensive, or there's lawsuits that make exploding gastanks really expensive, or make payments to miners when mines fall on their heads really expensive -- then operating in a way that benefits the greater good (or at least doesn't harm us) will be the way to maximize profits.

The biggest difference between liberal economists and conservative economists is that the liberals want to reduce the externalities, by applying all the actual indirect production costs to the same pocket that pays the direct production costs. (ex: shouldn't the oil companies pay enough corporate income tax to cover a big chunk of our military budget? I know for a fact it wasn't the Cayman Islands Navy that kept their middle east fields from being nationalized....)

273 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:23:58pm

re: #266 SanFranciscoZionist

Nobody supports every single action Israel has taken. (Trust me on this. I remember the days of the pullout from Gaza.)

I'm entirely happy to debate any damn thing Israel does or doesn't do, or should do, until the cows come home, so long as it's backed up with some understanding of the situation as a whole.

Well, I say it is futile because I see most of the things I disagree with as reactions, or overreactions, to Palestinian terrorism. IMO, resolve the Palestinian side of things and the left within Israel would be in a stronger position and changes would come naturally.

274 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:24:35pm

re: #265 Killgore Trout

Hopefully, but I don't think it's likely. Like last time it will temporarily limit their capabilities and Hamas will resupply and start again in a year or two. I don;t think Israel wants to occupy Gaza again so they;ll go in and get out. Rinse, Lather, Repeat.

I've found the problem!

It should go, "Lather, Rinse, Repeat"!

Peace is at hand!

275 ozbloke  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:25:59pm

re: #268 SanFranciscoZionist

But taking the money would be WRONG?

Blinkers go up, and beelines are made, all else pales into insignificance.

276 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:26:10pm

re: #263 Dark_Falcon

And hopefully it'll cut Hamas down to size.

Unfortunately, I see most military actions against terrorism as an exercise in cutting worms.

277 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:26:28pm

re: #271 CuriousLurker

BTW, thanks for mentioning the other that the "Return after posting reply" thing wasn't working for you any more. I never even realized it existed till you pointed it out. Nice feature.

You weren't the only one. I'm glad my stupidity has proven to be such a boon to others.

278 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:27:09pm

re: #262 engineer dog

consider, also, that the first responsibility - under law! - of those managing a corporation is to maximize profits for stockholders

however much we desire to operate under our existing economic system, and i am definitely not suggesting any other, it must be realized that this overriding imperative of corporations is not the same as an incentive to make businesses operate in a way that leads to the greater good of us all

agreed.

remember that not all companies are publicly traded.

also, one of the benefits of very low unemployment (as opposed, for example, to the chronically higher unemployment seen in many western european countries) is the greater pressure exerted on companies to create real, substantial incentives for their employees to stay.

a socioeconomic system which maximizes employment isn't just good for the employed because they have a job; it's doubly good because they also have options. and an employee with options is an employee with power.

279 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:27:30pm

re: #267 CuriousLurker

I'd have to agree with you there. I don't consider myself to be either pro- or anti-Israel (or Palestinian for that matter) becuase, as I've stated numerous times, I don't really have a good understanding of the situation. I'm certainly against terrorism, but that hardly qualifies me as pro-Israel. I'm working on filling in the knowledge that I lack, but it's going to take time as I intend to look into both sides of the story as fully as possible.

It does indeed get ugly here when the subject comes up, so, yeah, I'll one of those be staying away if comes up as I don't find strong emotional reactions particularly useful (that includes my own emotional reactions).

That being said, I guess this is as good a time as any to bring this up since no one is angry at the moment: One thing that does puzzle me is the strong attachment some people have to Israel. Obviously, I'm not surprised when Jews—regardless of how secular or religious they are—having a strong attachment to Israel. Ditto for people who have friends or family that are impacted by events there. But the rest...? *shrugs in bewilderment*

There is terror and slaughter and genocide going on all the time in the world, but it doesn't seem that the same people feels as strongly about those instances as they do when it happens in Israel. I'm not criticizing anyone—as I said, I just find it puzzling.

So there you have it. Fire away.

Tom Friedman talks about this a bit in "From Beirut to Jerusalem". I'm not sure I totally agree, but he feels that for Americans, the Israeli narrative is highly significant because of the Biblical connections of the land, and that therefore, either a sense of indentification with, or betrayal by, the Israelis, is very intense for American Christians.

280 ozbloke  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:29:16pm

re: #276 prononymous

Unfortunately, I see most military actions against terrorism as an exercise in cutting worms.

Unfortunately, when you have opposing ideologies I think all you tend to do is make heros of the dead, and increase the support of those you are fighting.

I pray for peace in the Middle East.

281 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:29:22pm

re: #267 CuriousLurker

I do feel as strongly about the awful things going on in the rest of the world as I do about what goes on in Israel.

There is a difference, though, in that the reporting about what happens in other areas, is pretty straight-up; whereas I see a lot of anti-Israel bias in many reports about what goes on in Israel. An example: If Israel responds to an attack (often unreported) the headline will more often than not be, "Israel attacks such and such", and the fact that it's a response to something that came their way FIRST will be buried in the story somewhere as an aside. Stories about what goes on in Israel often need more digging before one can figure out what's really happened.

I'm not knee-jerk pro-Israel. It just seems to me that reporting on events there leaves a lot to be desired, and so I take whatever I hear with a huge grain of salt.

Just my .02.

282 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:30:05pm

re: #267 CuriousLurker

That being said, I guess this is as good a time as any to bring this up since no one is angry at the moment: One thing that does puzzle me is the strong attachment some people have to Israel. Obviously, I'm not surprised when Jews—regardless of how secular or religious they are—having a strong attachment to Israel. Ditto for people who have friends or family that are impacted by events there. But the rest...? *shrugs in bewilderment*


Some of it is just political instinct. Lefties often gravitate towards the Palestinians because they are seem as weak and oppressed. A lot of people come to the debate with emotional baggage or a vested interest in proving their side is right.
I'm not really a "supporter of Israel" in the traditional sense. But I did come to learn from the debates here. What really turned me was the media bias against Israel. Fake stories, staged videos, edited photgraphs, bogus reporting etc all convinced me that the Israelis (although imperfect) are fighting a really ugly and determined enemy. The media does a terrible job of reporting and Israel/Palestine. Once you can get through some of the BS the picture becomes a little more clear.

283 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:30:06pm

re: #277 wrenchwench

You weren't the only one. I'm glad my stupidity has proven to be such a boon to others.

And I for one, got a huge and much needed laugh.

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:30:11pm

re: #273 prononymous

Well, I say it is futile because I see most of the things I disagree with as reactions, or overreactions, to Palestinian terrorism. IMO, resolve the Palestinian side of things and the left within Israel would be in a stronger position and changes would come naturally.

If you have any ideas about how to do that, feel free to throw 'em out there.

BTW, my husband has just extracted some impacted earwax from his ear with one of my hairpins--against my express advice--and says that he can hear in that ear again.

The miracle of ears.

Or bobby pins.

285 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:30:58pm

re: #272 sagehen

This is where regulations and personal injury lawyers come in.

If we pass laws that make polluting very expensive, or there's lawsuits that make exploding gastanks really expensive, or make payments to miners when mines fall on their heads really expensive -- then operating in a way that benefits the greater good (or at least doesn't harm us) will be the way to maximize profits.

The problem is the lawsuits claiming that...say...vaccines cause autism. Whatever soulless, profit-hungry motive one claims to dislike about corporations, the same is usually doubly true for the plaintiff's bar. In many cases, their cure is worse than the disease.

286 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:31:16pm

re: #281 reine.de.tout

Very well said.

287 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:32:48pm

re: #279 SanFranciscoZionist

Tom Friedman talks about this a bit in "From Beirut to Jerusalem". I'm not sure I totally agree, but he feels that for Americans, the Israeli narrative is highly significant because of the Biblical connections of the land, and that therefore, either a sense of indentification with, or betrayal by, the Israelis, is very intense for American Christians.

You know, I've considered that, but some of Israel's strongest supporters here are atheists, so whatever the Bible says wouldn't/shouldn't matter to them. If we get into the "becuase God said so" thing then we're headed for the "MY book is The Truth, not yours, and MY book says..." useless debate.

288 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:32:57pm

re: #286 Killgore Trout

Very well said.

*blush*
And yours as well.

289 ozbloke  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:33:30pm

re: #281 reine.de.tout

There is a difference, though, in that the reporting about what happens in other areas, is pretty straight-up;

I wish I agreed with this, but I would like to see a better educated public about the number of atrocities that happen, it should be in our face, maybe then we might demand our leaders actually do something to stop it.

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:34:42pm

Recent article in the Times seemed to suggest that there might be a move toward declaring a Palestinian state in the near future. I'd support that for a number of reasons, if I could figure out what the hell to do about Gaza.

291 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:35:41pm

I would also add that Western Muslim sympathy towards the Palestinians and the tactics they use (terrorism, sorry but there is no other word for it) has been a major factor in marginalizing and radicalizing Western Muslims. Not all American Jews are "supporters of Israel" and there should be more variety in opinion among Western Muslims. I think just being able to have the conversation would help a lot.

292 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:38:17pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

If you have any ideas about how to do that, feel free to throw 'em out there.

I wish I knew what could be done. I feel that removing the ability to indoctrinate and improving the quality of life for the poorest ranks, would be a good start. Remove the message and diminish the pool of angry people willing to listen to it.

293 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:38:46pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

If you have any ideas about how to do that, feel free to throw 'em out there.

BTW, my husband has just extracted some impacted earwax from his ear with one of my hairpins--against my express advice--and says that he can hear in that ear again.

The miracle of ears.

Or bobby pins.

Odds are he didn't get most of it. Get him a carbamide peroxide earwax removal kit, they're fun and fizzy.

One of my best friends went through a phase where she was really into ear candles. She convinced her Dad to let her try one on him and lit some of his hair on fire, the freakout was epic.

294 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:39:13pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

If you have any ideas about how to do that, feel free to throw 'em out there.

BTW, my husband has just extracted some impacted earwax from his ear with one of my hairpins--against my express advice--and says that he can hear in that ear again.

The miracle of ears.

Or bobby pins.

Bobby pins work well, but cuticle pushers work better.

A 5/16 auger works the best.

295 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:41:21pm

re: #276 prononymous

Unfortunately, I see most military actions against terrorism as an exercise in cutting worms.

Has to be done, though. The fact is that there's nothing Israel or any other Western country can do to fix the political and cultural problems in the Arab world that are the causes of anti-Israel hate and terrorism. All we can do is keep the terrorism cut back to a manageable level. Anything else has to wait till the Palestinians are ready for it.

296 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:41:52pm

re: #287 CuriousLurker

You know, I've considered that, but some of Israel's strongest supporters here are atheists, so whatever the Bible says wouldn't/shouldn't matter to them. If we get into the "becuase God said so" thing then we're headed for the "MY book is The Truth, not yours, and MY book says..." useless debate.

It's also been a lonely democracy amidst a plethora of nasty, brutish dictators. So there are a pile of reasons why one might be inclined to see Israel in a more sympathetic light.

As to what Reine and KT mentioned, namely the questionable reporting of events occurring in that area, it's always curious to research the plight of Palestinians living in Lebanon. It's quite an oppressive state of affairs, but somehow far less publicized than the situation of Palestinians in Gaza or the Bank.

297 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:42:13pm

re: #295 Dark_Falcon

Has to be done, though. The fact is that there's nothing Israel or any other Western country can do to fix the political and cultural problems in the Arab world that are the causes of anti-Israel hate and terrorism. All we can do is keep the terrorism cut back to a manageable level. Anything else has to wait till the Palestinians are ready for it.

And what will make them ready for it?

298 Interesting Times  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:43:49pm

re: #294 b_sharp

Bobby pins work well, but cuticle pushers work better.

A 5/16 auger works the best.

I'll see your 5/16 auger and raise you...

299 ozbloke  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:44:56pm

re: #295 Dark_Falcon

Has to be done, though. The fact is that there's nothing Israel or any other Western country can do to fix the political and cultural problems in the Arab world that are the causes of anti-Israel hate and terrorism. All we can do is keep the terrorism cut back to a manageable level. Anything else has to wait till the Palestinians are ready for it.

Do you think making martyers of the Palestinians turns other Palestinians towards or against Israel?

300 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:45:50pm

re: #298 publicityStunted

I'll see your 5/16 auger and raise you...

Pull the arrow out and the wind whistles through the hole. Not an ideal situation.

301 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:46:29pm

re: #292 prononymous

I wish I knew what could be done. I feel that removing the ability to indoctrinate and improving the quality of life for the poorest ranks, would be a good start. Remove the message and diminish the pool of angry people willing to listen to it.

The problem is that the only way to do that is by forcible takeover of territory and direct administration of the population in question. Removing the message require lots of force as well as thought control. Neither the US nor Israel wants to use thought control tactics because to use such tactics would turn either nation into something it does not wish to be. So we're left cutting worms.

302 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:46:41pm

re: #285 Aceofwhat?

The problem is the lawsuits claiming that...say...vaccines cause autism. Whatever soulless, profit-hungry motive one claims to dislike about corporations, the same is usually doubly true for the plaintiff's bar. In many cases, their cure is worse than the disease.

Juries usually aren't stupid, no matter how much we like to think they are, and judges almost never are. The level of proof required for a contested case... is pretty high. Even when the defendants lose, there's appeals and more appeals and it's not front page news when the award is cut down. Plaintiffs lawyers also aren't stupid. They're not going to take on contingency fee cases with scientific experts unless they have reason to believe it's a strong case.

The system isn't ideal, but it really does work exceptionally well -- the percentage of wrong verdicts is no worse than in the criminal courts.

303 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:47:03pm

re: #299 ozbloke

Do you think making martyers of the Palestinians turns other Palestinians towards or against Israel?

It's not a simple situation that will respond to simple solutions. That's why I'm an 'avoider'.

304 Buck  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:47:24pm

re: #267 CuriousLurker

Americans, in general, support the Middle East's only democracy and reliable American ally.

Jews have always been the canary in the coal mine. Americans can see that when the threat to Israel is finished with Israel, it will turn itself to other democracies and in time American itself.

Jews have been a major part of the American history. For 350 years jews have contributed, to every sector of American Society.

The other people where "terror and slaughter and genocide going on" do not have the same family experience with Americans.

305 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:47:42pm

re: #297 prononymous

And what will make them ready for it?

I don't know. A big part of it would be a leader who was strong enough to push for peace without being assassinated.

306 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:47:57pm

I should also add the the Israeli pullout from Gaza did a lot to wake me up. Aside from a few settlers the Israelis don't want to be in Gaza, they definitely don't want to occupy and patrol it. The Palestinians had the chance to demonstrate to the world that they are willing to live in peace next door to a Jewish state. Instead they responded with more attacks. Their choice is very clear.

307 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:48:14pm

re: #301 Dark_Falcon

The problem is that the only way to do that is by forcible takeover of territory and direct administration of the population in question. Removing the message require lots of force as well as thought control. Neither the US nor Israel wants to use thought control tactics because to use such tactics would turn either nation into something it does not wish to be. So we're left cutting worms.

Sounds like an a good job for an international body like the UN, if they weren't so damn useless.

308 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:49:37pm

re: #299 ozbloke

Do you think making martyrs of the Palestinians turns other Palestinians towards or against Israel?

Doesn't matter. They fire on Israel, Israel has to fire back. You can't just let the enemy shoot at your people without replying; it'll kill their morale. You've got to fight back, and if that pisses off the other side, then it does.

309 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:50:21pm

re: #281 reine.de.tout

re: #282 Killgore Trout

I can understand being upset about unfair reporting. That's one of the reasons I want to learn more about the whole thing from both sides. I want to know how the concept of Zionism and the religion of Judaism fits with how the modern state of Israel conducts itself since the these things all seem to be intimately tied together (according to my current understanding).

I have to admit that it also pains me to hear Palestinians spoken of almost as if they're animals. I don't have an issue with terrorists being being called such as that's how they behave (even worse, in fact), and I get just as disgusted and furious as any of you when I see some Palestinians celebrating the deaths of innocent people, but to be honest the level of vitriol I see here against pretty much ALL Palestinians bothers me and thus keeps me from participating. I realize many may disagree and/or dislike what I'm saying, but I'd rather be honest about how I feel than hope that people like me for for saying what I think they'd prefer to hear.

310 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:51:03pm

re: #307 prononymous

Sounds like an a good job for an international body like the UN, if they weren't so damn useless.

It would e. But most governments are semi-to-outright hostile to Israel, so the UN is never going to restrain the Islamists who attack Israel.

311 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:51:39pm

re: #287 CuriousLurker

You know, I've considered that, but some of Israel's strongest supporters here are atheists, so whatever the Bible says wouldn't/shouldn't matter to them. If we get into the "becuase God said so" thing then we're headed for the "MY book is The Truth, not yours, and MY book says..." useless debate.

Atheists aren't as pro-Israel as they were a few decades ago, because there's less and less people around old enough to remember when the Holocaust was breaking news -- when the pictures started coming out, then the Nuremberg trials...

So the feisty little survivors who held on in 1948, and 1956, and 1967, and 1973... Americans love to cheer for the underdog.

312 b_sharp  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:51:56pm

re: #310 Dark_Falcon

It would e. But most governments are semi-to-outright hostile to Israel, so the UN is never going to restrain the Islamists who attack Israel.

Most governments?

313 Buck  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:53:31pm

re: #312 b_sharp

Most non-democratic countries.

314 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:54:13pm

re: #309 CuriousLurker

I hope you didn't take my "cutting worms" comment as referring to Palestinians as worms. They are humans, just like the rest of us.

What happens when you cut a worm is that each half grows back the missing part and you have two worms. I see that as roughly what happens when governments try to use a conventional military to attack terrorists or guerrillas. Asymmetric warfare works, just ask our founding fathers.

315 ozbloke  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:54:58pm

re: #308 Dark_Falcon

Doesn't matter. They fire on Israel, Israel has to fire back. You can't just let the enemy shoot at your people without replying; it'll kill their morale. You've got to fight back, and if that pisses off the other side, then it does.

I can not see an end to this.
I also don't think the Palestinians economic situation is helping.
Not if the goal is to have a generational mindshift.

316 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:55:34pm

re: #312 b_sharp

Most governments?

Most governments. they either dislike Israel or they want to keep the Arabs on side. Stephen Harper of Canada has been Israel's friend, and Canada has never been hostile to Israel, but the UK has become at least semi-hostile, driven by an anti-Israel media and a growing Muslim population that has been indoctrinated in Jew-Hate.

317 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:55:55pm

re: #302 sagehen

Juries usually aren't stupid, no matter how much we like to think they are, and judges almost never are. The level of proof required for a contested case... is pretty high. Even when the defendants lose, there's appeals and more appeals and it's not front page news when the award is cut down. Plaintiffs lawyers also aren't stupid. They're not going to take on contingency fee cases with scientific experts unless they have reason to believe it's a strong case.

The system isn't ideal, but it really does work exceptionally well -- the percentage of wrong verdicts is no worse than in the criminal courts.

i disagree. meritless cases are settled all the time to avoid the litigation expense.

318 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:57:08pm

re: #287 CuriousLurker

You know, I've considered that, but some of Israel's strongest supporters here are atheists, so whatever the Bible says wouldn't/shouldn't matter to them. If we get into the "becuase God said so" thing then we're headed for the "MY book is The Truth, not yours, and MY book says..." useless debate.

I'm an atheist. My interest (not that I've thought about it a lot until you asked) stems from a few things. One is being a political junkie. One is that I was challenged to learn enough about it to take a position by a Jew I was politically involved with some time ago. One is that the US has been involved with Israel for a long time, and to the tune of billions of dollars. Others are more vague, and not worth the typing..

319 justaminute  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:58:16pm

I haven't engaged into many of the Israel conversations. The only times when I first joined the LGF community had to do with the Israel/US/Iran conversations. Mainly it was "don't bomb the population but yes, the Government is sh*t and I'll probably believe whatever negative thing someone has to say about them."

But the husband is Iranian, a part-time manager is Jordanian, and a cook on the third shift is Palestinian. We don't talk politics, it's not really conducive to a good work environment. I frankly like to read everyone's back and forth conversations and they give me a lot to think about.

320 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:58:41pm

re: #310 Dark_Falcon

It would e. But most governments are semi-to-outright hostile to Israel, so the UN is never going to restrain the Islamists who attack Israel.

Hence the "like" part.

321 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:59:07pm

I just saw the news! The bureaucrats are saved!

322 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 4:59:44pm

re: #291 Killgore Trout

I would also add that Western Muslim sympathy towards the Palestinians and the tactics they use (terrorism, sorry but there is no other word for it) has been a major factor in marginalizing and radicalizing Western Muslims. Not all American Jews are "supporters of Israel" and there should be more variety in opinion among Western Muslims. I think just being able to have the conversation would help a lot.

I agree, just being able to talk about it (calmly) would help a great deal. I don't know that so many Western Muslims have sympathy for terrorism so much as they have sympathy for Palestinians as fellow Muslims, but I don't doubt that it's the more extreme elements whose voices are the loudest, as always seems to be the case.

Some of those feelings Western Muslims have are due to ignorance, and some no doubt due to a knee-jerk reactions to any criticism of Islam/Muslims from what is perceived as a hostile press and culture that seems to reject them.Resentment may not a good excuse, but it seems like a fact (at least amongst some of the people I know).

323 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:00:32pm

re: #297 prononymous

And what will make them ready for it?

Financial stability. The thing I encourage people to remember is that, despite many people's best efforts to turn this into a purely ideological fight, it's essentially a land and resources conflict.

Egyptian media also has virulent anti-Semitic content, but Egypt has still kept the peace with Israel for forty years. Jordanian and Israeli businesses work together. None of the neighbors have attacked in some time. Israel may not be the most popular kid on the block, but she's staked out a little area for herself. The Palestinians have been left in the wind in large part because they're a convenient proxy for a number of people.

Remember when Israel pulled out of Gaza, and Hamas trashed the greenhouses? That wasn't happenstance. People with successful businesses and a stake in the future are less interested in perpetual war for themselves and their children. If there can be a functioning Palestinian economy in a Palestinian state (I'm thinking of the West Bank, 'cause I don't have a clue what to do about Gaza), I think that there will be an increasing resistance to violence.

Creating that would require a lot of restraint and genuine commitment by both Palestinian and Israeli leaders, but it would be very, very worth it. The Palestinians have consistently tried to create functioning businesses and get their kids education through the worst of this. The better the odds for the middle class, the better the odds for conflict resolution.

324 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:03:26pm

re: #314 prononymous

I hope you didn't take my "cutting worms" comment as referring to Palestinians as worms. They are humans, just like the rest of us.

What happens when you cut a worm is that each half grows back the missing part and you have two worms. I see that as roughly what happens when governments try to use a conventional military to attack terrorists or guerrillas. Asymmetric warfare works, just ask our founding fathers.

In Malaysia the British were able to get the job done, also in Kenya. And though it took years, we were able to find the Iraqi help we need and cut the heart out of Al Qaeda in Iraq. Military force can work, as long as its accompanied by the correct political actions.

325 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:03:38pm

re: #309 CuriousLurker


I have to admit that it also pains me to hear Palestinians spoken of almost as if they're animals. I don't have an issue with terrorists being being called such as that's how they behave (even worse, in fact), and I get just as disgusted and furious as any of you when I see some Palestinians celebrating the deaths of innocent people, but to be honest the level of vitriol I see here against pretty much ALL Palestinians bothers me and thus keeps me from participating. I realize many may disagree and/or dislike what I'm saying, but I'd rather be honest about how I feel than hope that people like me for for saying what I think they'd prefer to hear.

That's a problem. It used to be a worse problem. In the future I hope it's less of a problem. The broad brushes need to be holstered, to mix a tool metaphor.

326 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:03:41pm

re: #323 SanFranciscoZionist

Very well said. I just don't have any good ideas how to make that happen. :(

327 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:04:05pm

re: #314 prononymous

I hope you didn't take my "cutting worms" comment as referring to Palestinians as worms. They are humans, just like the rest of us.

What happens when you cut a worm is that each half grows back the missing part and you have two worms. I see that as roughly what happens when governments try to use a conventional military to attack terrorists or guerrillas. Asymmetric warfare works, just ask our founding fathers.

I understood what you meant. ;o)

328 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:05:04pm

re: #323 SanFranciscoZionist

Financial stability. The thing I encourage people to remember is that, despite many people's best efforts to turn this into a purely ideological fight, it's essentially a land and resources conflict.

Egyptian media also has virulent anti-Semitic content, but Egypt has still kept the peace with Israel for forty years. Jordanian and Israeli businesses work together. None of the neighbors have attacked in some time. Israel may not be the most popular kid on the block, but she's staked out a little area for herself. The Palestinians have been left in the wind in large part because they're a convenient proxy for a number of people.

Remember when Israel pulled out of Gaza, and Hamas trashed the greenhouses? That wasn't happenstance. People with successful businesses and a stake in the future are less interested in perpetual war for themselves and their children. If there can be a functioning Palestinian economy in a Palestinian state (I'm thinking of the West Bank, 'cause I don't have a clue what to do about Gaza), I think that there will be an increasing resistance to violence.

Creating that would require a lot of restraint and genuine commitment by both Palestinian and Israeli leaders, but it would be very, very worth it. The Palestinians have consistently tried to create functioning businesses and get their kids education through the worst of this. The better the odds for the middle class, the better the odds for conflict resolution.

The thing is that for the to work, the terrorists have to be cut back first. Until they are, they'll sabotage any effort at economic revival (for exactly the reasons you described).

329 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:05:52pm

re: #324 Dark_Falcon

In Malaysia the British were able to get the job done, also in Kenya. And though it took years, we were able to find the Iraqi help we need and cut the heart out of Al Qaeda in Iraq. Military force can work, as long as its accompanied by the correct political actions.

So what was the key to success in these cases? What was the cost?

330 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:08:22pm

re: #325 wrenchwench

That's a problem. It used to be a worse problem. In the future I hope it's less of a problem. The broad brushes need to be holstered, to mix a tool metaphor.

although it's curious to see how often the same person complaining about the broad brush can be found an hour later proclaiming that republicans hate poor people, or some such. generalizations are a struggle for all of us;)

331 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:09:24pm

re: #328 Dark_Falcon

The thing is that for the to work, the terrorists have to be cut back first. Until they are, they'll sabotage any effort at economic revival (for exactly the reasons you described).

Sure will. And that's one of the reasons this is such a shaky situation, because the major terrorist groups have deep ties in the 'legitimate' political parties, even in the West Bank.

But we got somewhere in Northern Ireland, against similar odds, and in this case, the parties can actually set up separate governments.

I don't hold out a lot of hope right now, but if there's going to be a real change, that's the direction it has to go in.

332 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:10:24pm

re: #330 Aceofwhat?

although it's curious to see how often the same person complaining about the broad brush can be found an hour later proclaiming that republicans hate poor people, or some such. generalizations are a struggle for all of us;)

Don't paint me with that broad brush of yours! ///

333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:10:45pm

re: #322 CuriousLurker

re: #323 SanFranciscoZionist

Is there a way we could get it so that you two were the ones to hash this out?

334 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:10:57pm

re: #329 prononymous

So what was the key to success in these cases? What was the cost?

The key in first and third cases was isolating the insurgents from the population and raising a local force to help do that. That played a role in the second case too, but with much more of a brute force element to it, driven both by the brutality of the insurgency and and the fact that nobody who mattered really knew or cared what happened to the insurgents.

335 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:11:11pm

re: #290 SanFranciscoZionist

Don't even speak to them. Hamas' situation in the Gaza Strip is slipping, holding by brutality. Add in a solution for the West Bank, and the people their progressing while the Strip is is squalor, and the predictable occurs.

On Golan Heights, I would want it to go back to a Syrian Government, but not this one. Hell, in an agreement with the PA, the treaty should explicitly state that Golan Heights don't go back until a less brutal regime gets in. Put the area under UN receivership or something.

336 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:11:15pm

re: #331 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure will. And that's one of the reasons this is such a shaky situation, because the major terrorist groups have deep ties in the 'legitimate' political parties, even in the West Bank.

But we got somewhere in Northern Ireland, against similar odds, and in this case, the parties can actually set up separate governments.

I don't hold out a lot of hope right now, but if there's going to be a real change, that's the direction it has to go in.

Agreed.

337 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:12:16pm

re: #330 Aceofwhat?

although it's curious to see how often the same person complaining about the broad brush can be found an hour later proclaiming that republicans hate poor people, or some such. generalizations are a struggle for all of us;)

When you catch 'em, post 'em. I don't know whether you're describing a particular lizard, but that's how I would respond.

Besides, Republicans DO hate poor people.

///

338 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:12:17pm

As for the "it's part of the American experience" thing, yeah, I get that—my ancestors have been here since the early 1800's. Still, growing up Israel & Judaism simply wasn't something our family discussed in either a good light or a bad one (but I do remember that my dad hated Yasser Arafat with the passion of 1000 burning suns). Muslims are part of the experience too as many were brought here from Africa as slaves (some captured sold by Muslim slave traders, yeah, I know).

The Holocaust was horrible beyond description, but I don't really see people mentioning that as a reason for their support for Israel. I could be wrong though...it certainly wouldn't be the first time. Heh.

339 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:12:47pm

re: #307 prononymous

Sounds like an a good job for an international body like the UN, if they weren't so damn useless.

That's the kind of thing FDR fantasied would be the case. With the benevolent hand of the US guiding things. He didn't count on 1) dying before the war ended and 2) Stalin being Stalin. He had a clear view of Hitler's danger but always seemed to underestimate Stalin. Ben Bova did an iteresting alt-history a couple of years back where Stalin was assassinated by the west so that Zhukov ended up in charge and FDR listened to his doctors. Now, I like FDR but he was an arrogant SOB and the listening to the Doctors was harder for me to believe than the conspiracies in the story. ;)

"Triumph", 1993.

340 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:13:05pm

re: #334 Dark_Falcon

The key in first and third cases was isolating the insurgents from the population and raising a local force to help do that. That played a role in the second case too, but with much more of a brute force element to it, driven both by the brutality of the insurgency and and the fact that nobody who mattered really knew or cared what happened to the insurgents.

Sounds brutal and not something I'd likely support. But I will have to go read up a bit.

341 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:14:45pm

re: #333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #323 SanFranciscoZionist

Is there a way we could get it so that you two were the ones to hash this out?

Would that we could. SFZ is wonderfully rational and always very fair.

342 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:15:50pm

re: #341 CuriousLurker

I say we give it to the Chicks.

Dude's have fucked it up beyond reason.

343 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:16:20pm

Evening, my fellow lizards. What's the good word?

344 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:16:32pm

re: #342 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I say we give it to the Chicks.

Dude's have fucked it up beyond reason.

Amen, brother! LOL

345 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:16:54pm

re: #335 ProLifeLiberal

However, Israel-Palestine is secondary to me. To fix the Muslim World, Saudi must be pulled apart so they are no longer putting money and support behind Wahhabism and other fanatical ideologies (Deobandi, etc.). Solve Israel-Palestine, Saudi will whip up another. This will require a major, powerful Muslim state with ties to the area going in and invading. I have an idea, but it might be a little out there.

346 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:16:55pm

re: #309 CuriousLurker

I agree. Keep in mind that nobody's saying "all" Palestinians. We are speaking in general terms. People get sensitive about stuff like this. If someone says "Northern Ireland supported the IRA" does not implicate everyone in N Ireland. It's a general statement. The Palestinian population is fairly supportive of terrorist attacks and the groups that carry them out. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Even American groups like CAIR are fairly sympathetic to Hamas and Hezbollah (although they're more careful to hide it these days). I doubt there's any accurate polling in Gaza but they do seem fairly supportive of continuing attacks on Israel. I wish it wasn't so. I think there would be a chance of peace if they rejected terrorist groups.

347 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:16:59pm

re: #343 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Evening, my fellow lizards. What's the good word?

Booger, apparently.

348 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:17:10pm

re: #341 CuriousLurker

Would that we could. SFZ is wonderfully rational and always very fair.

I'd be in favor. I'm not sure why we would get to make any decisions, but what the heck...we could give it a try. A summit with chick flicks.

349 Targetpractice  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:17:30pm

re: #347 prononymous

Booger, apparently.

Oh, is it? Give me a sec, I should be able to dig out a winner.

350 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:17:30pm

re: #337 wrenchwench

When you catch 'em, post 'em. I don't know whether you're describing a particular lizard, but that's how I would respond.

Besides, Republicans DO hate poor people.

///

no, no one in particular. if i have something to say to someone, i prefer to wait until they're in the room, you know? although i'm sure i've broken that rule at some point. the day i live up to all of my principles, i'll need better principles...

351 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:18:01pm

Dr. Zhivago is on.

Looks cold.

352 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:18:02pm

wrenchwench,

Do you know anybody that does quality brazed steel road frame repairs? I've got a 1998 Ibis Spanky that I crashed a few years ago. It took a very slight, almost imperceptible set where the down tube meets the head tube, at the joint on the down tube side just where the braze ends. I could build it back up and ride it again, but I want to get it fixed and repainted properly. I'll probably end up sending it to SyCip up in Santa Rosa but wanted to know if there were any other good options.

353 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:18:18pm

re: #330 Aceofwhat?

although it's curious to see how often the same person complaining about the broad brush can be found an hour later proclaiming that republicans hate poor people, or some such. generalizations are a struggle for all of us;)

Exactly. See my #346

354 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:18:20pm

re: #348 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd be in favor. I'm not sure why we would get to make any decisions, but what the heck...we could give it a try. A summit with chick flicks.

Now there's an idea!

355 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:19:11pm

re: #338 CuriousLurker

I think the Holocaust had a lot to do with President Truman's decision to support a nation state for the Jews:
"Truman wrote:
Hitler had been murdering Jews right and left. I saw it, and I dream about it even to this day. The Jews needed some place where they could go. It is my attitude that the American government couldn't stand idly by while the victims [of] Hitler's madness are not allowed to build new lives.[116]"

I'm very proud of the haberdasher from Kansas City.

356 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:19:29pm

re: #340 prononymous

Sounds brutal and not something I'd likely support. But I will have to go read up a bit.

I'm not suggesting we ever do what was done in Kenya. But Malaysia and and the surge in Iraq do offer valid ways forward.

357 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:22:53pm

re: #356 Dark_Falcon

I'm not suggesting we ever do what was done in Kenya. But Malaysia and and the surge in Iraq do offer valid ways forward.

I'm not sure I'd count Iraq. The insurgency isn't over, for one. And the insurgency didn't even exist before the invasion.

358 Westward Ho  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:24:43pm

re: #13 negativ

I've completely given up trying to discern parody from the real thing.

That would be Poe's law

359 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:25:07pm

re: #357 prononymous

I'm not sure I'd count Iraq. The insurgency isn't over, for one. And the insurgency didn't even exist before the invasion.

Also the Sunni Awakening Councils did most of the work, the surge just took most of the credit. Evidenced by the fact that the reduction in violence preceded the actual deployment / placement of additional boots on the ground.

360 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:26:33pm

re: #346 Killgore Trout

I agree. Keep in mind that nobody's saying "all" Palestinians. We are speaking in general terms. People get sensitive about stuff like this. If someone says "Northern Ireland supported the IRA" does not implicate everyone in N Ireland. It's a general statement. The Palestinian population is fairly supportive of terrorist attacks and the groups that carry them out. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Even American groups like CAIR are fairly sympathetic to Hamas and Hezbollah (although they're more careful to hide it these days). I doubt there's any accurate polling in Gaza but they do seem fairly supportive of continuing attacks on Israel. I wish it wasn't so. I think there would be a chance of peace if they rejected terrorist groups.

I understand that in my HEAD, Killgore, but it still hearts my HEART, y'know?

When I think about the Palestinians I realize that many of them were born after the last war in 1973. That means pretty much any Palestinian under the age of 40 knows nothing but whatever propaganda has been fed to them. Add to that that it can't be fun living in Gaza or the West Bank (regardless of how many shopping malls they have), and it just depresses the hell out of me.

361 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:26:47pm

re: #355 prairiefire

One of Truman's best friends was a Jewish business man from Kansas City. Bess Truman would never allow him in her house. I feel much less enthusiastic for Bess, truth be told.

362 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:27:33pm

re: #361 prairiefire

Really? I'm surprised.

363 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:29:23pm

re: #355 prairiefire

I think the Holocaust had a lot to do with President Truman's decision to support a nation state for the Jews:
"Truman wrote:
Hitler had been murdering Jews right and left. I saw it, and I dream about it even to this day. The Jews needed some place where they could go. It is my attitude that the American government couldn't stand idly by while the victims [of] Hitler's madness are not allowed to build new lives.[116]"

I'm very proud of the haberdasher from Kansas City.

Thanks. Yes, I still have a lot of reading to do. I've read about the general stuff like the Balfour Declaration, and general overviews of 1948. 1956, 1967, etc. but I suspect there's a lot more to it or it wouldn't still be such a confounding mess.

364 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:29:38pm

re: #362 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Kansas City is old school segregated. It's a shame, but the color lines drawn in the early 1900's are still pretty strong.

365 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:30:11pm

re: #357 prononymous

I'm not sure I'd count Iraq. The insurgency isn't over, for one. And the insurgency didn't even exist before the invasion.

No, but Iraq was a land of mass killings and political oppression before we were there. And the insurgency isn't gone yet, but the Iraqi government is slowly grinding it under. Barring a major misstep by al-Maliki, he will succeed in destroying it.

366 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:30:13pm

re: #361 prairiefire

One of Truman's best friends was a Jewish business man from Kansas City. Bess Truman would never allow him in her house. I feel much less enthusiastic for Bess, truth be told.

Seriously, she wouldn't let him in the house? Sheesh.

367 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:32:00pm

I hope I didn't miss dinging or replying to anyone. If I did it wasn't intentional.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I feel a lot better now that I got some of that off my chest (and no one even bit my head off ;o)).

368 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:32:18pm

From yesterday on Al-Jazeera on Syria, uh-oh

9:06pm
SYRIA - Al Jazeera's Cal Perry tells us that people in Daraa are afraid of going to hospitals in case they are kidnapped by secret police. With a large military contingent on its way to Daraa, it is likely the town will be surrounded by tomorrow morning, he says.

This sounds familiar.

369 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:32:25pm

re: #361 prairiefire

One of Truman's best friends was a Jewish business man from Kansas City. Bess Truman would never allow him in her house. I feel much less enthusiastic for Bess, truth be told.

She was old-school in many ways. And Middle America was not friendly to Jews in those days. Chicago was a partial exception, mostly because Jews lived there in numbers great enough to gain some actual clout.

370 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:33:59pm

re: #366 CuriousLurker

Seriously, she wouldn't let him in the house? Sheesh.

Truman's biographer was Jewish, and when he went to Truman's house Truman met him outdoors. The Truman family home had belonged to Bess's parents and no Jew had ever set foot in it. She did not want the tradition broken.

371 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:34:18pm

re: #309 CuriousLurker

You are honest, and like the rest of us, honestly and fairly trying to make sense of an awful and difficult situation for all concerned. Which is why we love you so!
re: #360 CuriousLurker

I understand that in my HEAD, Killgore, but it still hearts my HEART, y'know?

When I think about the Palestinians I realize that many of them were born after the last war in 1973. That means pretty much any Palestinian under the age of 40 knows nothing but whatever propaganda has been fed to them. Add to that that it can't be fun living in Gaza or the West Bank (regardless of how many shopping malls they have), and it just depresses the hell out of me.

{{CL}}
And of course, the things you mention here are part of what makes it such an awful and despicable situation, again, all the way around. The question: How to break the cycle? And what to do until that cycle is broken?

372 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:34:30pm

re: #366 CuriousLurker

Seriously, she wouldn't let him in the house? Sheesh.

Yep, she retreated from DC when Truman was president and lived in their white clapboard home in Independence, Mo. I don't think she could deal with it.
They had a strong marriage.
"Bess found the White House's lack of privacy distasteful. As her husband put it later, she was "not especially interested" in the "formalities and pomp or the artificiality which, as we had learned..., inevitably surround the family of the President Harry Truman." Though she steadfastly fulfilled the social obligations of her position, she did only what she thought was necessary. When the White House was rebuilt during Truman's second term, the family lived in Blair House and kept their social life to a minimum. In most years of her husband's presidency Mrs. Truman did not live in Washington other than during the social season when her presence was expected."

373 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:34:45pm

re: #360 CuriousLurker

I understand that in my HEAD, Killgore, but it still hearts my HEART, y'know?

When I think about the Palestinians I realize that many of them were born after the last war in 1973. That means pretty much any Palestinian under the age of 40 knows nothing but whatever propaganda has been fed to them. Add to that that it can't be fun living in Gaza or the West Bank (regardless of how many shopping malls they have), and it just depresses the hell out of me.

I think if you scratch the surface pretty much all of us here feel for the plight of the Palestinian people (that hasn't always been the case). They have no chance at prosperity, jobs, security or peace. It really is an awful situation. It's especially frustrating that peace and prosperity would sweep through Gaza tomorrow if they decided they wanted it. It could become a nice tourist resort on the Mediterranean if only they'd stop the attacks.I feel for those who want peace but there aren't enough of them.

374 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:35:03pm

re: #368 ProLifeLiberal

The city in question has a population of 75,000, and has been around in some form continuously since Thutmose III. Hama at the time of the massacre had a population between 180,000 to 200,000.

375 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:35:29pm

re: #369 Dark_Falcon

She was old-school in many ways. And Middle America was not friendly to Jews in those days. Chicago was a partial exception, mostly because Jews lived there in numbers great enough to gain some actual clout.

Calvin Trillian's dad had to have a non- Jewish friend sign the loan for their house in a "white's only" neighborhood.

376 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:35:52pm

re: #373 Killgore Trout

I think if you scratch the surface pretty much all of us here feel for the plight of the Palestinian people (that hasn't always been the case). They have no chance at prosperity, jobs, security or peace. It really is an awful situation. It's especially frustrating that peace and prosperity would sweep through Gaza tomorrow if they decided they wanted it. It could become a nice tourist resort on the Mediterranean if only they'd stop the attacks.I feel for those who want peace but there aren't enough of them.

Agreed 100%.

377 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:36:07pm

re: #365 Dark_Falcon

No, but Iraq was a land of mass killings and political oppression before we were there.

That was the regime doing those things. The power vacuum left after the invasion caused the insurgency. In that sense it would be more of a case of us using military intervention to, accidentally, start an insurgency rather than stop one.

And the insurgency isn't gone yet, but the Iraqi government is slowly grinding it under. Barring a major misstep by al-Maliki, he will succeed in destroying it.

So it sounds like sociopolitical change and economic stability is ending the insurgency more effectively than military intervention did.

378 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:36:48pm

re: #370 Dark_Falcon

re: #373 Killgore Trout

That's fascinating. More than a little shocking, but still fascinating. Thanks.

379 bratwurst  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:37:25pm

re: #361 prairiefire

One of Truman's best friends was a Jewish business man from Kansas City. Bess Truman would never allow him in her house. I feel much less enthusiastic for Bess, truth be told.

Eddie Jacobson...if he and HST hadn't been army buddies during WWI there might not be a state of Israel today!

380 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:38:28pm

re: #371 reine.de.tout

You are honest, and like the rest of us, honestly and fairly trying to make sense of an awful and difficult situation for all concerned. Which is why we love you so!
re: #360 CuriousLurker

{{CL}}
And of course, the things you mention here are part of what makes it such an awful and despicable situation, again, all the way around. The question: How to break the cycle? And what to do until that cycle is broken?

I love it when you give me hugs. Believe it or not, it really does make me feel better. I wish I had answers instead of questions. *SIGH*

381 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:39:18pm

re: #352 goddamnedfrank

wrenchwench,

Do you know anybody that does quality brazed steel road frame repairs? I've got a 1998 Ibis Spanky that I crashed a few years ago. It took a very slight, almost imperceptible set where the down tube meets the head tube, at the joint on the down tube side just where the braze ends. I could build it back up and ride it again, but I want to get it fixed and repainted properly. I'll probably end up sending it to SyCip up in Santa Rosa but wanted to know if there were any other good options.

I know of two builders who work in steel, but I don't know whether they do repairs. Bohemian and Steelman do nice work that I have seen. This place, CyclArt does nice paint, but not repairs, from what I see on their site. One of my customers has had them paint a couple frames for him. They could refer you to a brazer, I'll bet.

382 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:39:47pm

re: #375 prairiefire

Calvin Trillian's dad had to have a non- Jewish friend sign the loan for their house in a "white's only" neighborhood.

Many Chicago neighborhoods were like that. When Saul Alinsky organized in Chicago's Back o' the Yards, he counted it as an achievement when the neighborhood organization agreed to allow blacks safe passage through the area. Not permission to live there or even stop to buy coffee, but simply to pass through. Even today, some places see 'too many' black people passing through as a sign the area is in decline.

383 Lidane  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:39:56pm

Ever wonder what the Exodus would have been like if Moses had had Google/Facebook/Gmail/etc? Wonder no more!

:)

384 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:40:20pm

re: #374 ProLifeLiberal

As I think, I realize how few cities ANYWHERE are the 3,500 years old and still extent. There's Luxor, and maybe 10-20 other cities in the world.

385 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:41:10pm

re: #377 prononymous

That was the regime doing those things. The power vacuum left after the invasion caused the insurgency. In that sense it would be more of a case of us using military intervention to, accidentally, start an insurgency rather than stop one.

So it sounds like sociopolitical change and economic stability is ending the insurgency more effectively than military intervention did.

Yes, but it was the intervention that allowed for those changes in the first place by removing Saddam. For Iraq to change for the better, Saddam and his sons had to go.

386 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:41:32pm

re: #379 bratwurst

Eddie Jacobson...if he and HST hadn't been army buddies during WWI there might not be a state of Israel today!

Correct! Also, Truman recounted stories his mother had told him about how Missouri was torn apart by the Civil war.

387 Summer Lovin' Torture Party  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:43:02pm

re: #373 Killgore Trout

I think if you scratch the surface pretty much all of us here feel for the plight of the Palestinian people (that hasn't always been the case). They have no chance at prosperity, jobs, security or peace. It really is an awful situation. It's especially frustrating that peace and prosperity would sweep through Gaza tomorrow if they decided they wanted it. It could become a nice tourist resort on the Mediterranean if only they'd stop the attacks.I feel for those who want peace but there aren't enough of them.

Right before Clinton left office (literally, like maybe ten days), he offered Arafat (I think; correct me if I'm wrong) 98% of what he wanted for years, and Arafat gave Clinton the bird. The situation is so ingrained into the people there, I don't see it ever changing. That doesn't mean I don't want it to be peaceful, it's just the realist in me. And honestly, it really sucks.

388 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:43:42pm

re: #385 Dark_Falcon

I could argue about this but I don't really see what it has to do with using military intervention to end insurgencies being an effective strategy. For every one you list, I could list half a dozen that turned out to be shit on a plate.

389 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:45:38pm

re: #373 Killgore Trout

I think if you scratch the surface pretty much all of us here feel for the plight of the Palestinian people (that hasn't always been the case). They have no chance at prosperity, jobs, security or peace. It really is an awful situation. It's especially frustrating that peace and prosperity would sweep through Gaza tomorrow if they decided they wanted it. It could become a nice tourist resort on the Mediterranean if only they'd stop the attacks.I feel for those who want peace but there aren't enough of them.

Yeah, I can't see how enough of them can be convinced to want peace if they're being taught from the cradle not to. Like I said, it really depresses me and makes my heart hurt that their lives are in so many ways being wasted. And (obviously) it'll just self-perpetuate unless someone figures out a way to break the cycle.

Thanks for saying that you feel for their plight though. That makes me feel better. It may seem silly, but even though most of us are just nics & words on a screen to each other, I'm always aware that there are real people sitting behind the keyboards, so it kinda matters to me that you all give a damn.

Okay, enough of the touchy-feely stuff—let's rumble over politics, right?? LOL

390 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:46:23pm

Time for me to go. I'm pissed at the Cheezburger site because they quit doing tags. I'll have to resort to my collection of bookmarks for my "departure features."

Image: funny-pictures-cat-trash-economy.jpg

391 Summer Lovin' Torture Party  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:48:58pm

re: #389 CuriousLurker

Yeah, I can't see how enough of them can be convinced to want peace if they're being taught from the cradle not to. Like I said, it really depresses me and makes my heart hurt that their lives are in so many ways being wasted. And (obviously) it'll just self-perpetuate unless someone figures out a way to break the cycle.

Thanks for saying that you feel for their plight though. That makes me feel better. It may seem silly, but even though most of us are just nics & words on a screen to each other, I'm always aware that there are real people sitting behind the keyboards, so it kinda matters to me that you all give a damn.

Okay, enough of the touchy-feely stuff—let's rumble over politics, right?? LOL

I feel for the children, being taught all that hateful shit about Jews being pigs. Some of that shit they show on television with the children's shows is downright hideous. Maybe one day the Palestinians and Israelis will both take two steps back, look at themselves in the mirror and say "You know, I think it's time we both try something else, because this dog don't hunt." One can dream, right?

392 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:49:10pm

re: #369 Dark_Falcon

She was old-school in many ways. And Middle America was not friendly to Jews in those days. Chicago was a partial exception, mostly because Jews lived there in numbers great enough to gain some actual clout.

And New York, of course. Between the shmatte trade and nightclubs, we were the hipsters.

(although Grandma, when she worked for a white shoe law firm, had to try to pass as Gentile.)

393 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:49:11pm

re: #378 CuriousLurker

re: #373 Killgore Trout

That's fascinating. More than a little shocking, but still fascinating. Thanks.

Um, that comment was supposed to be in reply to DF and to parariefire's #372. I hate when I have a hard time keeping up. PIMF.

394 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:50:05pm

re: #389 CuriousLurker

To use TVTropes, you are the Heart of the group on here.

395 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:50:40pm

re: #374 ProLifeLiberal

The city in question has a population of 75,000, and has been around in some form continuously since Thutmose III. Hama at the time of the massacre had a population between 180,000 to 200,000.

Is Hamas named after them, or is that coincidence?

396 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:52:32pm

re: #379 bratwurst

Eddie Jacobson...if he and HST hadn't been army buddies during WWI there might not be a state of Israel today!

FDR wanted to give the Jews part of Alaska, the Matanuska Valley.

Wasilla would have been ours!!

397 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:52:49pm

re: #391 Kid A

Yeah, I hate that kids are taught to hate.

And yeah, everyone gets held back. I mean Israel invents all kinds of amazing stuff, so imagine what they could do if they didn't have to pour so many resources into that conflict. It's costing everyone involved. And us too.

398 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:53:31pm

re: #368 ProLifeLiberal

From yesterday on Al-Jazeera on Syria, uh-oh

This sounds familiar.

those Syrian reformers...what rascals!

*ducks*

399 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:53:52pm

re: #396 sagehen

FDR wanted to give the Jews part of Alaska, the Matanuska Valley.

Wasilla would have been ours!!

And they'd still have to fight extremists. ///

400 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:54:01pm

re: #395 sagehen

Coincidence. HAMAS is an acronym. Also, HAMAS is aligned with Syria, which goes against the idea.

401 engineer cat  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:54:23pm

re: #355 prairiefire

I'm very proud of the haberdasher from Kansas City.

i certainly agree with your sentiments, but a few words about "haberdasher"

actually, that was only a small part of harry truman's life before becoming fdr's vice president

born on a prosperous farm, he was a studious child with glasses who loved to play chopin - he was probably the best musician to ever become president. but just as he was getting ready to go to college, circumstances changed, his father died, and instead he spent the next ten years behind the plow trying to make the farm go

world war one saved him from rural obscurity - he was a great success as a squad leader. when he came back there were a lot of opportunities for servicemen. but the haberdashery shop he was a partner in didn't make it through the serious recession of 1920

soon, however, being a bit of a war hero, he got picked up by the corrupt missouri political machine, who made him a 'judge' - actually, a kind of bureaucrat in the missouri system. he was never personally corrupt, and after a few years the machine decided that he would make a great senator, and arranged it

as senator during world war two he became well known for the way he ran the committee that looked into corruption in war contracts. when fdr was considering a running mate for his fourth term, his aids figured that there would be a good chance he wouldn't make it through. then vice president henry wallace was a very interesting figure in his own right - a progressive going on socialist - but fdr's aids knew that they needed somebody like truman, who combined personal rectitude with one of the sharpest minds ever to occupy the oval office, and they pressed fdr to choose him

402 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:55:44pm

re: #396 sagehen

Salt Lake City.

Could've been called "Jewtah"!

403 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:56:43pm

Marjoriemoon is gonna be so pissed that we discussed That Subject™ when she was absent. Sorry, MM—KT started it!

404 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:57:01pm

re: #395 sagehen

Is Hamas named after them, or is that coincidence?

Not connected. Hamas is an acronym for Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamat al-Islāmiyyah, "Islamic Resistance Movement".

405 sagehen  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:58:42pm

re: #383 Lidane

Ever wonder what the Exodus would have been like if Moses had had Google/Facebook/Gmail/etc? Wonder no more!

[Video]:)


There's also the facebook haggadah.

[Link: www.cdelkin.com...]

406 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:58:46pm

re: #401 engineer dog

Back in his day there were opencasinos and nightclubs flourishing under Mayor Pendergast.
"Pendergast era
At the turn of the century, political machines attempted to gain clout in the city, with the one led by Tom Pendergast emerging as the dominant machine by 1925. A new city charter passed that year made it easier for his Democratic Party machine to gain control of the city council (slimmed from 32 members to nine) and appoint a corrupt city manager.[citation needed] Several important buildings and structures were built during this time, including the Kansas City City Hall and the Jackson County Courthouse—both added new skyscrapers to the city's growing skyline. The machine fell in 1939 when Pendergast, riddled with health problems, pleaded guilty to tax evasion. The machine, however, gave rise to Harry S. Truman, who quickly became Kansas City's favorite son.[citation needed]"

407 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 5:59:45pm

re: #380 CuriousLurker

I love it when you give me hugs. Believe it or not, it really does make me feel better. I wish I had answers instead of questions. *SIGH*

I wish I did too.

408 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:01:29pm

re: #404 SanFranciscoZionist

Not connected. Hamas is an acronym for Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamat al-Islāmiyyah, "Islamic Resistance Movement".

Hi, I need a Yiddish word or expression. Calvin Trillian said his dad said it when Calvin told him how much it cost to buy his Brownstone home in Greenwich Village. "It just went dark behind my eyes."

409 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:02:09pm

re: #394 ProLifeLiberal

To use TVTropes, you are the Heart of the group on here.

At least the female Muslim one, huh? Thanks, that was sweet.

410 engineer cat  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:04:45pm

re: #406 prairiefire

Back in his day there were opencasinos and nightclubs flourishing under Mayor Pendergast.
"Pendergast era
At the turn of the century, political machines attempted to gain clout in the city, with the one led by Tom Pendergast emerging as the dominant machine by 1925. A new city charter passed that year made it easier for his Democratic Party machine to gain control of the city council (slimmed from 32 members to nine) and appoint a corrupt city manager.[citation needed] Several important buildings and structures were built during this time, including the Kansas City City Hall and the Jackson County Courthouse—both added new skyscrapers to the city's growing skyline. The machine fell in 1939 when Pendergast, riddled with health problems, pleaded guilty to tax evasion. The machine, however, gave rise to Harry S. Truman, who quickly became Kansas City's favorite son.[citation needed]"

it also allowed the wide open kansas city that led to a great flourishing of jazz there, nourishing both count basie as well as the young charlie parker, who grew up and started his career there

as jay macshann, one of charlie parker's early employers, put it: "everywhere you looked, there was joints, joints, joints" - (meaning wide open bars with live music)

411 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:06:32pm

re: #407 reine.de.tout

I wish I did too.

well, at least we can all agree that profiling is bad.

412 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:07:26pm

re: #380 CuriousLurker

I wish I had answers instead of questions.


Don't be sorry, that's often the best way to have these discussions. Too often people try to win an argument instead of having a conversation. If you really want to understand an issue the best thing to do is ask why someone has a different opinion. Most people can explain their point of view honestly if simply asked.

413 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:08:28pm

re: #412 Killgore Trout

Don't be sorry, that's often the best way to have these discussions. Too often people try to win an argument instead of having a conversation. If you really want to understand an issue the best thing to do is ask why someone has a different opinion. Most people can explain their point of view honestly if simply asked.

this^

414 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:09:03pm

re: #360 CuriousLurker

I understand that in my HEAD, Killgore, but it still hearts hurts my HEART, y'know?

PIMF, dammit! I don't why I'm bothering to fix it since you guys obviously knew what I meant. OCD, I guess.

415 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:09:43pm

re: #414 CuriousLurker

Don't look now but there is a dust spot on your monitor...

416 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:10:35pm

re: #412 Killgore Trout

Don't be sorry, that's often the best way to have these discussions. Too often people try to win an argument instead of having a conversation. If you really want to understand an issue the best thing to do is ask why someone has a different opinion. Most people can explain their point of view honestly if simply asked.

All of it yes, and esp. the bolded part.

417 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:11:14pm

re: #410 engineer dog

it also allowed the wide open kansas city that led to a great flourishing of jazz there, nourishing both count basie as well as the young charlie parker, who grew up and started his career there

as jay macshann, one of charlie parker's early employers, put it: "everywhere you looked, there was joints, joints, joints" - (meaning wide open bars with live music)

My town still has a wide open attitude. We aim for a good time, whether it be music or food. We're just careful mid westerners.

418 Mocking Jay  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:12:08pm

re: #412 Killgore Trout

Don't be sorry, that's often the best way to have these discussions. Too often people try to win an argument instead of having a conversation. If you really want to understand an issue the best thing to do is ask why someone has a different opinion. Most people can explain their point of view honestly if simply asked.

Except me. I really have nothing of value to add. Just wanted to get in on the love-fest going on tonight...

419 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:15:16pm

re: #412 Killgore Trout

Don't be sorry, that's often the best way to have these discussions. Too often people try to win an argument instead of having a conversation. If you really want to understand an issue the best thing to do is ask why someone has a different opinion. Most people can explain their point of view honestly if simply asked.

I think I was making the whole thing scarier in my head that it actually is. You guys can be pretty formidable when riled up, so broaching the subject even when everyone was calm took required me working up my courage and hoping I wasn't poking a stick in a fire ant bed. I guess I should have a little more faith in you guys after a year of being here, huh? My bad—I know better now. :)

420 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:18:24pm

re: #415 prononymous

Don't look now but there is a dust spot on your monitor...

Oh, noes!!11!

Okay, I'm outta here for now. Have a great night, everyone.

421 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:21:05pm

re: #408 prairiefire

Hi, I need a Yiddish word or expression. Calvin Trillian said his dad said it when Calvin told him how much it cost to buy his Brownstone home in Greenwich Village. "It just went dark behind my eyes."

Not sure. Lemme think if anything comes to mind.

422 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:28:09pm

re: #419 CuriousLurker

I think I was making the whole thing scarier in my head that it actually is. You guys can be pretty formidable when riled up, so broaching the subject even when everyone was calm took required me working up my courage and hoping I wasn't poking a stick in a fire ant bed. I guess I should have a little more faith in you guys after a year of being here, huh? My bad—I know better now. :)

I try not to be formidable, but I confess to having been so thoroughly programmed by many years of the same sorts of arguments that I probably swing for the fences sometimes even when I shouldn't. But I know you are good people, and a clear and honest thinker, and well, darnit, folks here like you.

It's rare to be able to have an honest conversation, rather than a rhetorical contest about the Middle East. Another reason to be grateful for LGF.

423 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:33:20pm

re: #422 SanFranciscoZionist

I try not to be formidable, but I confess to having been so thoroughly programmed by many years of the same sorts of arguments that I probably swing for the fences sometimes even when I shouldn't. But I know you are good people, and a clear and honest thinker, and well, darnit, folks here like you.

I know you don't usually do hugs, but I'm gonna give you one anyway: {{{SFZ}}}

It's rare to be able to have an honest conversation, rather than a rhetorical contest about the Middle East. Another reason to be grateful for LGF.

QFT

Charles, if you're watching: Thanks!

Now I swear I'm really leaving, darn it...//

424 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 6:46:37pm

re: #421 SanFranciscoZionist

Not sure. Lemme think if anything comes to mind.

I think I asked you the last time I thought of Calvin Trillin (pimf). Ha! I highly recommend his memoir of his father for mid century Jewish commentary "Messages From My Father" (1996)

425 Areopagitica  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:20:22pm

I've heard of "bad craziness" before but this is like a whole 'nother level of evil stupid bat guano....WTF is in the Tenessee drinking water? Oh wait, these nitwits hate the EPA and tainted water and dirty skies are a okay.....what asshats!

426 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 7:25:12pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

Yeah, it's a lefty thing. Our lefty lizards are going to be pretty disgusted with us old timers if there's another Cast Lead operation. Warm up the Rooster Cam.

I miss the rooster.
No, you didn't eat him.

427 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:04:33pm

re: #404 SanFranciscoZionist

Not connected. Hamas is an acronym for Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamat al-Islāmiyyah, "Islamic Resistance Movement".


Hamas must be destroyed, and I'm beginning to believe that it must be destroyed by any means necessary. My sympathy for the land squatters in Gaza is approaching an end.

428 labman57  Sat, Apr 9, 2011 9:46:17pm

"we gave up Aqua Net hair spray” because of fears “it was causing global warming.

Uh no. You gave up Aqua Net because the propellent contained CFCs which were destroying the ozone layer in the earth's stratosphere.
Just another right winger showing off her D+ science education.

Evolution is a verifiable fact. It is the mechanism through which it occurs -- natural selection -- that comprises the theory.

People who do not understand how science works seem to think that a "theory" is somehow lacking in power and validity.  Scientific theories are our best explanation for an event or phenomenon based on the available evidence, i.e., a theory tells us HOW it happens.  Theories have generally been subjected to rigorous testing and represent the consensus of the scientific community, whereas a hypothesis is a possible explanation and has not necessarily been extensively tested yet.

Calling something a theory does not cheapen or weaken it.  On the contrary, the term "theory" gives it legitimacy as something that is scientifically testable and that has been rigorously examined either mathematically or empirically to the point that the available evidence overwhelming supports it.

Theories are based on the best empirical EVIDENCE available, not PROOF. There is an incredible wealth of evidence--both geological and biochemical--to support evolution by natural selection.

Creationism and ID are faith-based concepts. Their "evidence" consists of the allegories provided in the Bible, nothing more.

I actually have no problem with the idea of discussing the merits of Creationism or ID in the public school classroom. It would make a fine topic in a social studies course on Religions in Society. But this topic has no business in a biology classroom, since science is based on verifiable evidence along with empirically and mathematically testable hypotheses, whereas religious beliefs are by definition faith-based.

429 surlymarv  Mon, Apr 11, 2011 8:22:00am

re: #5 Obdicut

Exactly what I was going to comment on. I was in grade school and I remember CFCs being banned was about the ozone layer. Why bother when facts when you can just make shit up and not be challenged on it.


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