Right wing blogger Glenn Reynolds jumps out in the front of the pro-gun propaganda effort with a piece for USA Today attacking Gun-Free Zones.
Given that gun-free zones seem to be a magnet for mass shooters, maybe we should be working to shrink or eliminate them, rather than expand them. As they say, if it saves just one life, it’s worth it.
1 |
freetoken Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:03:29pm |
This is now the standard mantra from today's reactionary right. It's part of their religion.
| 2 |
jaunte Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:05:21pm |
Does he want to arm the kindergarten students, or the union-thug kindergarten teachers?
| 3 |
Kragar Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:05:25pm |
As they say, if it saves just one life, it’s worth it.
Apparently that doesn't apply if the solution is to place stricter controls on gun ownership
| 4 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:06:29pm |
re: #2 jaunte
Does he want to arm the kindergarten students, or the union-thug kindergarten teachers?
Yes.
| 5 |
Petero1818 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:07:21pm |
Or it is possible that these zones could have armed police or armed guard on duty during school hours rather than rely on untrained teens packing heat in class. Because what could possibly go wrong with a bunch of 19 year olds and 20 year olds carrying.
| 6 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:07:43pm |
I'm just waiting to hear about whether or not this 20 year old was raised by a single mother.
| 8 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:12:18pm |
| 9 |
Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:12:34pm |
re: #7 b_sharp
Instapundit is a fucking moron.
He has a website dedicated to him. Google Instaputz (just fyi it's run by an ex-FDL guy, don't wanna upset anybody, just figured I'd point it out)
| 10 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:15:22pm |
re: #9 Ghost of Tom Joad
He has a website dedicated to him. Google Instaputz (just fyi it's run by an ex-FDL guy, don't wanna upset anybody, just figured I'd point it out)
I'd rather not. Shitheads are only interesting as far as I want to piss on them.
| 11 |
The Ghost of a Flea Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:16:11pm |
Doubtless Mr Reynolds and the NRA will graciously be willing to pay for both the firearms training and the ongoing liability coverage for every school with armed teachers.
| 12 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:16:14pm |
Need some help playing whack-a-troll. It's a decent way to discharge anger.
| 13 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:17:59pm |
Yes Glenn. Gun free zone in a kindergarten with a perp who allegedly had access and was armed with a Bushmaster .223, a Glock, and a Sig-Sauer. Yep, should be ready for that at your average grade school any day.
| 14 |
dragonath Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:19:21pm |
You know what we need to bring back?
Duels.
/
| 15 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:21:21pm |
re: #13 Gus
Yes Glenn. Gun free zone in a kindergarten with a perp who allegedly had access and was armed with a Bushmaster .223, a Glock, and a Sig-Sauer. Yep, should be ready for that at your average grade school any day.
Wasn't he also wearing a vest?
| 16 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:21:46pm |
re: #14 dragonath
You know what we need to bring back?
Duels.
/
Pissing matches that only involve piss.
| 18 |
Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:24:10pm |
| 19 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:24:22pm |
re: #12 Dark_Falcon
Need some help playing whack-a-troll. It's a decent way to discharge anger.
Never mind. Charles just sent 'Uncle Fester' to the great beyond. To the newly banned hater I say:
Skip to around 9:00 for the key part.
| 20 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:25:11pm |
I'd be open for the principal and the VP being side arm certified.
| 21 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:25:21pm |
re: #17 Gus
I was thinking that but didn't want to check.
Panicked teacher with a gun locked in a desk, taught to shoot for the largest mass. How will that work again?
When will these people join us in reality?
| 22 |
jaunte Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:25:44pm |
idiot saying an armed trained teacher stops a shooting. we can't even afford to buy our schools pencils but we gonna train a teacher militia
— Sam (@ANGRYSAM) December 15, 2012
& that armed teacher in each & every class room is gonna be on point every min of the day, not in bathroom lunch meetings or maybe teaching
— Sam (@ANGRYSAM) December 15, 2012
| 25 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:27:12pm |
| 26 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:27:46pm |
| 27 |
Kragar Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:28:04pm |
re: #22 jaunte
[Embedded content]
I can see no negative repercussions to putting a loaded firearm in every classroom in the US.
///
| 28 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:28:12pm |
This wasn't your average school shooting though. Remember. This was not a student driven crime.
| 29 |
Petero1818 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:29:12pm |
re: #28 Gus
This wasn't your average school shooting though. Remember. This was not a student driven crime.
Hard to believe there is an "average" school shooting but I get what you are saying.
| 30 |
celticdragon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:29:25pm |
Given that gun-free zones seem to be a magnet for mass shooters, maybe we should be working to shrink or eliminate them, rather than expand them. As they say, if it saves just one life, it’s worth it.
So let me get this straight: The "Ole Perfessor" thinks that while employed here in NC as a substitute teacher dealing with earth science and US history, I also need to have a frakking Kalashnikov behind the desk and suitable tactical training.
While I am teaching. Teaching children, no less.
Got it.
What. The. Fuck.
How do you even formulate a response to this without mirthless laughter? It's like talking to a Flat Earth conspiracy nut who has been hitting PCP.
| 31 |
Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:29:58pm |
re: #20 Gus
I'd be open for the principal and the VP being side arm certified.
I'd rather it just be a trained security guard or cop stationed there. Hell, even the grade schools around here have full-time security teams. Might as well train them, or hire ex-cops or something. I'd rather a trained professional than a principal packing heat. I think that sends the wrong message to the kids (though at this point...cat out of bag).
| 32 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:30:18pm |
re: #29 Petero1818
Hard to believe there is an "average" school shooting but I get what you are saying.
Yeah. The perp was from the outside. The rest is insane.
| 33 |
Targetpractice Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:30:19pm |
re: #22 jaunte
[Embedded content]
Yeah, that's what I love, they bitch up a storm about the cost of funding schools and would sooner pull their own wisdom teeth with rusty pliers than raise taxes to better fund schools...but think we need to take on the cost and liability of arming teachers to be low-grade security guards. Not to mention the legal headache when the first teacher draws on a student due to a false alarm. Let's take a second to imagine the joy of reading "Teacher Shoots Student: Claims Student Was Armed."
| 34 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:30:41pm |
re: #31 Ghost of Tom Joad
I'd rather it just be a trained security guard or cop stationed there. Hell, even the grade schools around here have full-time security teams. Might as well train them, or hire ex-cops or something. I'd rather a trained professional than a principal packing heat. I think that sends the wrong message to the kids (though at this point...cat out of bag).
Good jobs for vets.
| 35 |
Petero1818 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:31:02pm |
re: #30 celticdragon
We can lament the fact that its not surprising how few wonderful people want to be teachers given the shitty pay, lack of respect, and of course the need to carry firearms.
| 36 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:31:19pm |
And now for some appropriate music while I grill 'Uncle Fester's gamey troll carcass:
| 37 |
jaunte Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:32:19pm |
re: #33 Targetpractice
"Florida Student Shoots Teacher: Claims He Felt Threatened, Was "Standing His Ground."
| 38 |
Stanghazi Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:32:27pm |
re: #20 Gus
I'd be open for the principal and the VP being side arm certified.
So, in order to be a principal you have to love kids, selflessly give over 40 hrs per week, and agree to arm yourself.
Thats more crazy to fight crazy.
| 39 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:32:31pm |
This is getting weirder.
Law enforcement official: Connecticut shooter’s mother did not appear to have connection with the school (@ap) #Newtown
— Weed Dude (@weeddude) December 15, 2012
| 40 |
freetoken Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:33:41pm |
There were some other news stories from today (or yesterday) that I have open in tabs that have been sort of shoved aside for the major story of the day, but here is one that sort of touches the whole idiocy brought forward by Huckabee and company earlier.
Nearly 6-in-10 (58%) Americans agree that God is in control of everything that happens in the world, while nearly 4-in-10 (38%) disagree.
Nearly 9-in-10 (89%) minority Christians, roughly three-quarters (76%) of white evangelical Protestants, 6-in-10 (60%) Catholics, and a slim majority (51%) of white mainline Protestants agree that God is in control of everything that happens in the world. However, only 3-in-10 (30%) religiously unaffiliated Americans agree with this statement, while 6-in-10 (60%) disagree.
[...]
Nearly 6-in-10 (57%) Americans agree that the political choices being made by Americans these days are moving the U.S. away from God, while more than one-third (36%) disagree.
Nearly 9-in-10 (89%) white evangelical Protestants and 53% of Catholics agree that Americans’ political decisions are moving the country away from God. Only roughly one-third (34%) of religiously unaffiliated Americans agree.
There's a lot more to write about in that poll release, but I pulled out the above because it brings up the theodicy problem, to which Huckabee and Fischer have no good answer.
| 41 |
Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:34:10pm |
re: #35 Petero1818
We can lament the fact that its not surprising how few wonderful people want to be teachers given the shitty pay, lack of respect, and of course the need to carry firearms.
Ugh, makes me think of my grandparents when they'd talk about school "they used to be able to hit us with rulers and sticks back in my day." In 60 years, our children will be telling their children "back in my day, the teacher could shoot you in the leg for talking during a lesson."
| 42 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:34:20pm |
re: #34 Gus
Good jobs for vets.
That idea came up earlier but it's not, not really. Infantry or even MP's are very different with extreamly different response profiles that what is required by police or security. Having been Infantry, I know I'd not be a good fit.
| 43 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:34:21pm |
re: #38 Stanghazi
So, in order to be a principal you have to love kids, selflessly give over 40 hrs per week, and agree to arm yourself.
Thats more crazy to fight crazy.
Optional. Not as a requirement.
| 44 |
celticdragon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:34:41pm |
re: #42 William Barnett-Lewis
That idea came up earlier but it's not, not really. Infantry or even MP's are very different with extreamly different response profiles that what is required by police or security. Having been Infantry, I know I'd not be a good fit.
Good point.
| 45 |
freetoken Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:35:23pm |
re: #20 Gus
I'd be open for the principal and the VP being side arm certified.
Hey, here's a solution: let's just get rid of public schools, give parents vouchers, and let the parents send their children to God-fearin' schools of their choice.
See how easy that was?
| 46 |
The Ghost of a Flea Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:35:45pm |
re: #33 Targetpractice
Yeah, that's what I love, they bitch up a storm about the cost of funding schools and would sooner pull their own wisdom teeth with rusty pliers than raise taxes to better fund schools...but think we need to take on the cost and liability of arming teachers to be low-grade security guards. Not to mention the legal headache when the first teacher draws on a student due to a false alarm. Let's take a second to imagine the joy of reading "Teacher Shoots Student: Claims Student Was Armed."
My problem with all of these fantasies of an armed society administering personal-serving-sized justice is people have shitty threat recognition. Stress and anger completely skew an individual's perception and capacity for attribution of intent. Biases in attribution makes the picture even fuzzier.
| 47 |
Targetpractice Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:36:08pm |
re: #41 Ghost of Tom Joad
Ugh, makes me think of my grandparents when they'd talk about school "they used to be able to hit us with rulers and sticks back in my day." In 60 years, our children will be telling their children "back in my day, the teacher could shoot you in the leg for talking during a lesson."
Yeah, that should go over well with the paranoid nutters who think public schools are indoctrination centers. "Daddy, when I tried to correct the teacher about the right of states to leave the Union, he flashed his gun at me and told me that I was wrong."
| 48 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:37:18pm |
re: #45 freetoken
Hey, here's a solution: let's just get rid of public schools, give parents vouchers, and let the parents send their children to God-fearin' schools of their choice.
See how easy that was?
I'm weird in that I like to think of compromises.
| 49 |
jaunte Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:38:20pm |
Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America:
"Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered. This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting rid of gun bans in school zones. The only thing accomplished by gun free zones is to insure that mass murderers can slay more before they are finally confronted by someone with a gun."
| 50 |
Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:38:52pm |
re: #46 The Ghost of a Flea
My problem with all of these fantasies of an armed society administering personal-serving-sized justice is people have shitty threat recognition. Stress and anger completely skew an individual's perception and capacity for attribution of intent. Biases in attribution makes the picture even fuzzier.
Pretty much what would happen is every teacher would be turned into a paranoid nut, and at the slightest noise (let alone an actual attack), they're all going to rush out in a panic and wind up firing at each other.
| 51 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:39:41pm |
And this is how you know that this one's different.
NRA Cancels Country Music Event trib.al/umx4RGe #cheatsheet
— The Daily Beast (@thedailybeast) December 15, 2012
| 52 |
Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:40:01pm |
re: #49 jaunte
Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America:
Translation: We can't compete with the NRA by being sensible, so we're going to be just as deranged.
| 53 |
jaunte Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:41:04pm |
re: #52 Ghost of Tom Joad
It's as if they're all singing out of the same hymnbook.
| 54 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:41:24pm |
re: #52 Ghost of Tom Joad
Translation: We can't compete with the NRA by being sensible, so we're going to be just as deranged.
GOA started with the mission statement to make the NRA look sane.
| 55 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:41:45pm |
re: #51 Four More Tears
And this is how you know that this one's different.
[Embedded content]
The NRA must atone!
| 56 |
Targetpractice Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:42:07pm |
re: #46 The Ghost of a Flea
My problem with all of these fantasies of an armed society administering personal-serving-sized justice is people have shitty threat recognition. Stress and anger completely skew an individual's perception and capacity for attribution of intent. Biases in attribution makes the picture even fuzzier.
I think we've all lost track of the number of incidents in the local news where a cop made a bad call and shot a kid or an adult because they "looked" like they were brandishing a weapon. Difference is that we expect a cop to be trained to make such calls and when he makes a bad one, to be disciplined by the department. These nutters want teachers to take on the same responsibility, but without the training and with the understanding that if they make a bad call, the ones who will be judging them will be a jury of 12 parents who will want them to pay.
| 57 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:42:21pm |
re: #49 jaunte
Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America:
Fucking GOA makes the NRA seem good again.
| 60 |
jaunte Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:43:28pm |
I think Wayne LaPierre should attend all the Newtown funerals. Get all sides of gun culture. Come back and tell us what he thinks
— Joan Walsh (@joanwalsh) December 15, 2012
| 61 |
freetoken Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:43:44pm |
In times like this the "media" can be of no help at all:
Glock: 'A favorite of mass shooters'
You'd think that a news-wire writer would both do better research and not trip over the meaning of statistics.
| 62 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:43:51pm |
re: #42 William Barnett-Lewis
That idea came up earlier but it's not, not really. Infantry or even MP's are very different with extreamly different response profiles that what is required by police or security. Having been Infantry, I know I'd not be a good fit.
Just so. right after dinner I had occasion to read a Wayne LaPierre attack on Michael Bloomberg. I'm not a fan of Bloomberg, but LaPierre entirely mischaracterized Bloomberg's deciding not to ask for the National Guard after Hurricane Sandy: It wasn't that Bloomberg didn't think that the Guard couldn't competently patrol areas of the Outer Burroughs, it was that he understood that soldiers trained for duty in Iraq or Afghanistan are going to react to looters very differently than police. The Army's way of dealing with civil unrest is a lot heavier on force and lighter on persuasion than any American police department. Michael Bloomberg knows this and regarded the situation as not needed that level of force.
The NRA seriously needs a new leader, someone able to advocate without resort to insane hyperbole.
| 64 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:44:10pm |
re: #45 freetoken
Hey, here's a solution: let's just get rid of public schools, give parents vouchers, and let the parents send their children to God-fearin' schools of their choice.
See how easy that was?
Turn around.
No, seriously turn around.
I'm going kick you in the butt.
Twice.
| 65 |
freetoken Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:44:27pm |
| 66 |
BongCrodny Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:45:51pm |
re: #34 Gus
Good jobs for vets.
My 82-year-old mom works part-time at a kindergarten as a "granny lady." I'm not certain what the rules are, but she doesn't even get minimum wage -- it's some kind of program that allows her to supplement her Social Security benefits; she gets a little extra money each month, and the school gets another part-time aide.
I see no logical reason why we couldn't do something similar with retired veterans.
| 67 |
The Ghost of a Flea Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:45:51pm |
re: #56 Targetpractice
I think we've all lost track of the number of incidents in the local news where a cop made a bad call and shot a kid or an adult because they "looked" like they were brandishing a weapon. Difference is that we expect a cop to be trained to make such calls and when he makes a bad one, to be disciplined by the department. These nutters want teachers to take on the same responsibility, but without the training and with the understanding that if they make a bad call, the ones who will be judging them will be a jury of 12 parents who will want them to pay.
I know I'm being grand guignol vulgar by saying this, but we might as well skip the foreplay of the GOA/NRA fantasy and just go straight to critically wounding a bunch of young black men.
| 68 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:46:34pm |
re: #61 freetoken
In times like this the "media" can be of no help at all:
Glock: 'A favorite of mass shooters'
You'd think that a news-wire writer would both do better research and not trip over the meaning of statistics.
I'm not going to bother reading that. I'll trust your analysis.
| 70 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:47:26pm |
re: #61 freetoken
In times like this the "media" can be of no help at all:
Glock: 'A favorite of mass shooters'
You'd think that a news-wire writer would both do better research and not trip over the meaning of statistics.
The Glock is also used by many police departments and armies, including that of Iraq. It's far more a police officer's, soldier's and honest citizen's gun than a murderer's gun. Once again, we see the chance for a decent argument thrown away if favor of hyperbole.
| 71 |
freetoken Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:47:42pm |
re: #68 b_sharp
I'm not going to bother reading that. I'll trust your analysis.
It's just an amazingly shallow article with the usual misunderstandings. As if "Glock" is some magic power or something.
| 72 |
dragonath Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:48:34pm |
I have a question for the lizards--- do any of you remember a time when the NRA wasn't nuts? I've been told that it was a non-partisan group with a bit of a conservation focus before LaPierre came on the scene.
| 73 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:48:57pm |
Compare this kind of proposal to the weapons control procedures used by the most heavily armed people in the world, the US military. Except in active combat zones, personal weapons are kept under lock and key in a unit arms room. When they are issued for range practice, parades, or field exercises, each serial number is carefully recorded together with the name and service number of the soldier receiving it. Each one has to be returned at the end of the issue period, individually by the recipient soldier, or all hell breaks loose; that is, the MPs will turn the post upside down until they find it. Even in an authorized issue, officers and NCOs attempt to make sure that no armed soldier is alone with a large number of the unarmed. If someone does go over the deep end, you want somebody around who can deal it with it at once. Privately owned firearms are allowed but they must be registered with the provost marshal. If you live in the barracks, they must be stored in the unit armory along with the issue weapons, and signed out through normal chain of command. In family quarters, they must be stored in accordance with regulations that can vary from post to post. They must be locked up securely while moving them to and from the post. You are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon on any military post, even if you are licensed by the state in which the post is located.
| 75 |
freetoken Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:49:59pm |
re: #66 BongCrodny
My mother used to do that years ago - be the "granny" in the classroom. It's to help teachers today because class sizes have gotten so big, and so many little ones come from situations that require them to have more time than a single teacher can give.
And yes, one thinks that perhaps retired police officers or retired military could have a similar program to have random guards for school systems.
| 76 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:50:05pm |
re: #71 freetoken
It's just an amazingly shallow article with the usual misunderstandings. As if "Glock" is some magic power or something.
I assumed something like that.
| 77 |
jaunte Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:50:26pm |
re: #73 Shiplord Kirel
I suspect that's what the authors meant when they wrote "well-regulated."
| 79 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:52:23pm |
re: #72 dragonath
I have a question for the lizards- do any of you remember a time when the NRA wasn't nuts? I've been told that it was a non-partisan group with a bit conservation focus before LaPierre came on the scene..
Say what you want about Charlton Heston (and what Charles has posted about what he said has dropped my opinion of the man), but he was better able to inspire than LaPierre and relied less upon extreme statements.
It's not the positions that bother me, its just the over the top and ugly way they get argued. I think a calmer, saner nation discourse might actually make mass shootings less likely just by itself.
| 80 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:52:49pm |
re: #78 Kronocide
So what we need to reduce gun deaths is 489,000,000 guns.
MADness.
[Bridge blows up.]
| 81 |
The Ghost of a Flea Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:53:19pm |
re: #72 dragonath
I have a question for the lizards- do any of you remember a time when the NRA wasn't nuts? I've been told that it was a non-partisan group with a bit conservation focus before LaPierre came on the scene..
At 33...no, I recall them as being dicks consistently. My earliest memories of NRA gun talk involve race baiting and fantasies of fighting the federal government.
Listening to NRA stuff for nigh-30 years led me to the conclusion that there's more to good gun ownership than safety training. If you're sneering at people who have fear or concerns about a lethal implement in their house or around their kids, you're not a good gun owner.
| 82 |
Targetpractice Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:53:30pm |
re: #73 Shiplord Kirel
Compare this kind of proposal to the weapons control procedures used by the most heavily armed people in the world, the US military. Except in active combat zones, personal weapons are kept under lock and key in a unit arms room. When they are issued for range practice, parades, or field exercises, each serial number is carefully recorded together with the name and service number of the soldier receiving it. Each one has to be returned at the end of the issue period, individually by the recipient soldier, or all hell breaks loose; that is, the MPs will turn the post upside down until they find it. Even in an authorized issue, officers and NCOs attempt to make sure that no armed soldier is alone with a large number of the unarmed. If someone does go over the deep end, you want somebody around who can deal it with it at once. Personal firearms are allowed but they must be registered with the provost marshal. If you live in the barracks, they must be stored in the unit armory along with the issue weapons, and signed out through normal chain of command. In family quarters, they must be stored in accordance with regulations that can vary from post to post. They must be locked up securely while moving them to and from the post. You are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon on any military post, even if you are licensed by the state in which the post is located.
Wingnut I mentioned earlier was going on about how teachers are armed in Israel and have taken down terrorists before. I decided to look it up and they're even more stringent than we are. How many gun owners in the US you think would submit to a mental health evaluation as part of determining if they can carry a firearm? Or would agree to only one handgun or, if they're active military, one rifle? And how many would agree with the idea that only those who have either are actively serving or have served should be allowed to own a gun?
| 83 |
Political Atheist Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:53:31pm |
re: #79 Dark_Falcon
Ever look at the 2nd Amend. Foundation?
| 84 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:55:04pm |
This kind of reaction to this situation is similar to how we see poor threat analysis in any variety of situations.
There is a certain logic in responding to the massive focus that we see on these deaths, by a reaction that says let's just isolate this problem and find a solution. Let's arm everyone, and a shooter like this won't be able to take down so many people. You respond to the immediate threat.
What is missing is a measured response, that takes the time to think through the follow-on ramifications of arming everyone - more accidental shootings, more shootings done by the mentally ill, more suicides. In the end, any advantage gained by taking out a mass-shooter sooner would be negated by more gun-related deaths.
The poor analytical thinking crops up in many threat assessment situations, such as the illogic behind invading Iraq in response to 9/11.
| 85 |
A Man for all Seasons Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:55:35pm |
Our security where I work is like airport security. And if you get by them you can't get through to the next level. Without authorization you get locked inside a hallway. But in Indiana we hired off-duty cops as supplementary security to guards. Cop cars parked in front provide incentive to cowards with guns. I think parents with children deserve security and would be willing to pay 200 dollars extra a school day for that comfort.
| 86 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:56:04pm |
re: #72 dragonath
I have a question for the lizards--- do any of you remember a time when the NRA wasn't nuts? I've been told that it was a non-partisan group with a bit conservation focus before LaPierre came on the scene.
They went crazy in the Mid70's when at one of the conventions (Cleveland?) the radicals took over and threw the organization behind Reagan's first presidential run. Which is insane in itself, as Ronnie was very Pro-Gun Control.
My FiL - a union organizer, WWII Navy Vet and democrat - turned in his life memebership after they helped Ronnie get elected.
In the 70's I was taught rifle shooting by the NRA. That was at the tail end of their good days.
| 87 |
austin_blue Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:56:17pm |
First off, my deepest sympathies to all of the families involved. I simply Can Not Imagine what that community is going through right now.
I'm pretty upset, and I read the "logic" of such opinions noted above and get more pissed.
The shooter had to be buzzed in through the front door, which was locked. But he was the son of a teacher employed at the school. Is she sick? Does he need something for her?
Buzzz...
And the slaughter was on.
I'm a gun owner. I've got a couple of rifles and a shotgun. None of them have a capacity, magazine, or clip that can hold more than five rounds. If I can't hit what I'm shooting at with five bullets, then the bear should eat me, the robber should kill me, or the public shooter should slaughter me.
Period.
I don't own handguns. Hate them. All they are good for is shooting people. Ditto for shortened assault weapons that fit nicely, unseen, under a pea coat.
Make the possession of any gun or bullet holder with a capacity of greater than five rounds a Federal crime with a minimum sentence of ten years. Buy back every piece of hardware that doesn't meet the requirement.
Want to keep something that doesn't meet the rule? Fine. We will treat every component like we do privately owned machine guns. You will be Federally registered and pay $250 for every component of every gun that doesn't pass muster.
If the nut cases want everyone to be armed, accommodate them by making available flintlock muzzle loaders so that they can form well regulated militias.
Now *that* is "Constitutional original intent" that no one can argue with.
//rant off
| 88 |
Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:56:19pm |
re: #72 dragonath
I have a question for the lizards--- do any of you remember a time when the NRA wasn't nuts? I've been told that it was a non-partisan group with a bit conservation focus before LaPierre came on the scene.
I was a member in the late 80s/90s (junior for part of it, I did a lot of shooting, some semi-competitive stuff). My recollection isn't all that great, but I know they've become very politically active in the past ~15 or so years, and at this point are nothing more than an extension of the Republican right-wing. LaPierre has pretty much steered them into nutter/conspiracy territory.
| 89 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:56:31pm |
re: #12 Dark_Falcon
Blocked now! Thanks, Charles!
| 90 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:56:44pm |
Rule number one! Thou shalt never blame Hollywood for taking part in the gun culture.
| 91 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:57:44pm |
re: #84 Talking Point Detective
This kind of reaction to this situation is similar to how we see poor threat analysis in any variety of situations.
There is a certain logic in responding to the massive focus that we see on these deaths, by a reaction that says let's just isolate this problem and find a solution. Let's arm everyone, and a shooter like this won't be able to take down so many people. You respond to the immediate threat.
What is missing is a measured response, that takes the time to think through the follow-on ramifications of arming everyone - more accidental shootings, more shootings done by the mentally ill, more suicides. In the end, any advantage gained by taking out a mass-shooter sooner would be negated by more gun-related deaths.
The poor analytical thinking crops up in many threat assessment situations, such as the illogic behind invading Iraq in response to 9/11.
Well said.
| 92 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:59:58pm |
Interesting factoid: Wayne LaPierre's BA is in education so he is trained as a teacher. He has apparently never worked as one though.
| 93 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:00:39pm |
re: #87 austin_blue
If the nut cases want everyone to be armed, accommodate them by making available flintlock muzzle loaders so that they can form well regulated militias.
Now *that* is "Constitutional original intent" that no one can argue with.
//rant off
Just like only those with a hand screw letter press can have freedom of the press like was the original intent?
| 95 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:01:16pm |
re: #87 austin_blue
You'd get armed insurrection if you tried that.
| 96 |
darthstar Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:01:27pm |
I just secretly replaced the micro-roast coffee I normally drink with Folgers Dark Crystals and added some Silk Vanilla Soy creamer to it, and, to be quite honest, this shit ain't half bad.
| 97 |
The Ghost of a Flea Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:01:45pm |
re: #88 Ghost of Tom Joad
LaPierre has pretty much steered them into nutter/conspiracy territory.
LaPierre has taken the hypothetical of resisting a tyrannical government and replaced it with direct, Bircher influenced anti-federalism. Honestly, I'm not entirely shocked by the transition. The biggest gun fetishists I know are also anti-federalists and Neo-Confederates.
| 98 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:02:20pm |
re: #94 Gus
It's OK to bring up toy guns, but don't bring up Pulp Fiction.
Can we bring up Reservoir Dogs then? You're Mr. Orange.
| 99 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:02:37pm |
Fuck Everything, Nation Reports
Just Fuck It All To Hell
| 100 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:03:00pm |
There is no realistic answer in trying to keep guns away from nuts or nuts away from schools. The numbers of guns, nuts, and schools prohibit it. There might be some gain from new school staff procedures and architecture--provision of better exiting and safehavens in new construction. That's all we're going to get until we learn how make people not want to kill children.
| 101 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:03:34pm |
re: #95 Dark_Falcon
You'd get armed insurrection if you tried that.
The original draft of the NFA of 1934 included handguns but that was too radical to pass even in the wake of thousands of armed bank robberies which killed many people too.
This is not a new phenomenon.
| 102 |
Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:04:03pm |
re: #97 The Ghost of a Flea
LaPierre has taken the hypothetical of resisting a tyrannical government and replaced it with direct, Bircher influenced anti-federalism. Honestly, I'm not entirely shocked by the transition. The biggest gun fetishists I know are also anti-federalists and Neo-Confederates.
From my personal perspective, I've found the hardcore gun-nutters to be racists and bigots as well. YMMV.
| 103 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:04:18pm |
re: #96 darthstar
I just secretly replaced the micro-roast coffee I normally drink with Folgers Dark Crystals and added some Silk Vanilla Soy creamer to it, and, to be quite honest, this shit ain't half bad.
How do you propose to keep that secret from yourself?
| 104 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:04:36pm |
We all share in this.re: #98 Dark_Falcon
Can we bring up Reservoir Dogs then? You're Mr. Orange.
Hamburgers.
| 105 |
Targetpractice Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:06:18pm |
| 106 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:06:31pm |
re: #104 Gus
We all share in this.
Hamburgers.
"Some wingnut makes trouble, acting like he's Charles Bronson, break his nose with your pocket Constitution."
///
| 108 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:07:06pm |
re: #105 Targetpractice
Why am I Mr. Pink?
//
Because I hand out the codenames, you no-tipping cheapskate.
| 109 |
austin_blue Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:08:28pm |
re: #93 William Barnett-Lewis
Just like only those with a hand screw letter press can have freedom of the press like was the original intent?
Well! Aren't you the Magical Balance Fairy!
Were twenty young children killed by hand-screw letter presses today? Or the even more lethal modern computer controlled presses of today?
No?
I'll not say what I'm thinking of you right now.
| 110 |
palomino Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:08:41pm |
To the contemporary American right, "More guns" is the answer to a whole range of problems.
School shootings? We should have more guns in school...what could go wrong?
Illegal immigration? We need more guns at the border pointed at Mexico.
Crime in general? We need more Zimmermans running around playing cop. Again, what could possibly go wrong?
Rape? More women should carry guns to just "shut that whole rape thing down."
This is simplistic, dangerous, hyper-macho thinking. Sadly it dominates conservative discourse these days.
| 111 |
Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:03pm |
re: #110 palomino
Tax cuts, guns, and babies - 2016!!!!
| 112 |
darthstar Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:23pm |
re: #103 b_sharp
How do you propose to keep that secret from yourself?
I'm trying to be more Republican, so I lie to myself whenever possible.
| 113 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:24pm |
re: #87 austin_blue
I know of one person who has actually used a muzzle loader in legitimate defense in recent years. An acquaintance, a disabled vet in a wheelchair, used a percussion lock rifle to shoot a stray dog that had gotten into his yard and was attacking his much smaller dogs.
| 114 |
ReamWorks SKG Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:25pm |
I want to make it clear that I don't like guns. But all the gun control laws, and ID checks, and waiting periods wouldn't have stopped this:
A 28th person, found dead in a house in the town, was also believed to have been shot by Mr. Lanza. That victim, one law enforcement official said, was Mr. Lanza’s mother, Nancy Lanza, a teacher at the school. She apparently owned the guns he used.
What's needed is to hold people strictly liable for crimes committed with their guns. This might encourage people to keep them locked up safely, and would certainly stop many crimes where a person gets his hand on someone else's legally-owned guns.
| 115 |
Cap'n Magic Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:26pm |
(dipping his pen in heavy sarcasm with a 5x0 point)...
Well, if the instructor to the next generation of so-called 'lawyers' wants to go really go down that road, then I have a sure-fire, 100% solution to preventing such massacares from ever happening again. Unfortunately, it'll take the efforts of the dreaded Feds via the funds spent to develop military defensive weaponry, but I digress...
Take the ubiquitous Phalanx CWIS and downscale it to a size where hundreds of thousands can be massed-produced to fire .22 caliber hollow-point curare-tipped projectiles when a gunfire event is detected by audio-visual sensors and backscatter sweeps of the affected preimiter, bypassing those potential targets who aren't wearing the proper RFID/NFC tags matched to a registered weapon in open public spaces like malls or in schools.
I'd hate to be the poor sucker who has to draw up the use cases for testing such a solution, tho-what if I forgot my chip and some wisenhimer hacks my phone to send out a ringer tone that sounds like a Uzi?
| 116 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:43pm |
My wife had breast reduction surgery last week and has been recovering at home. She's crawling the walls man. I took her for a Friday night out on the town at the department store. WOOHOO!!!!!
| 117 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:49pm |
17 when his parents split up. Guess we can't pin this one on the scourge of single-motherhood.
MT @magegordon: The story of how I broke the news to Adam Lanza's father stamfordadvocate.com/news/article/R… #Newtown
— Weed Dude (@weeddude) December 15, 2012
| 118 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:52pm |
Given that gun-free zones seem to be a magnet for mass shooters, maybe we should be working to shrink or eliminate them, rather than expand them. As they say, if it saves just one life, it’s worth it.
Nidal Hasan managed to kill 13 and wound 29 in a one-man shooting spree on the largest military base in the world, on which can be found no short supply of every type of weapon imaginable short of nuclear, biological, and chemical.
| 119 |
jaunte Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:11:02pm |
Terror suspects can’t buy plane tickets, but can buy guns
[May 14, 2011] About a year ago, several congressional Democrats pushed a measure that seemed pretty reasonable. If you’re on the FBI terror watch list, you should be ineligible to buy weapons in the U.S. Law enforcement has long supported the proposal, but Congress keeps rejecting it. Last year was no different — the NRA told lawmakers to kill the bill, and they did as they were told.
| 120 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:11:37pm |
Can we at least compromise and admit the Founders would have been OK with people owning Ferguson Rifles?
| 121 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:12:15pm |
re: #119 jaunte
Think about it, man! If they wanted to take away your right to own guns, all they'd have to do is put you on the list!
| 122 |
Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:12:59pm |
re: #115 Cap'n Magic
Umm....try decaf buddy. I think it'll just be safer to give little Billy a Smith & Wesson in his lunchbox next to the PB&J and applejuice.
| 123 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:13:00pm |
"We need a better class of prisoner psychopath."
--Lester Maddox
| 124 |
Jaerik Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:13:07pm |
I find it hard to believe that any of these people would seriously enjoy living in any society so choked by perpetual fear of our fellow citizens' mobile arsenals that we feel compelled to carry around assault rifles at all times.
What a dysfunctional hell-hole of a country that would be. I have better things to do with my time and money than engage in a perpetual arms race with everyone else around me.
There is zero cost-benefit rationale I can think of that would indicate a pointless escalating spiral of paranoid self-armament has any chance of creating a happier, more productive, and more globally competitive society.
| 125 |
Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:15:32pm |
| 127 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:16:02pm |
re: #119 jaunte
We've been over this one: The right to own a gun is a right that cannot be taken away without due process of law (adjudicating someone as mentally ill or convicting them of a crime requires due process, or at least is supposed to). The terrorist watch list, by contrast, does not provide for due process: People are added to it based on criterion that by necessity cannot be revealed to the general public, and once on this list there is no due process procedure for being removed from it. Thus that proposal is a non-starter.
| 128 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:17:05pm |
re: #109 austin_blue
Well! Aren't you the Magical Balance Fairy!
Were twenty young children killed by hand-screw letter presses today? Or the even more lethal modern computer controlled presses of today?
No?
I'll not say what I'm thinking of you right now.
Would we be having this discussion if freedom of the press and speach did not cover modern technology? No. Tech cuts both ways so if the founders didn't forsee modern firearms they didn't forsee modern communications. So be mad at me if it make you feel better. It won't change the fact that you can't have it both ways.
| 130 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:17:09pm |
We seriously need better mental health priorities.
| 131 |
Targetpractice Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:18:12pm |
re: #124 Jaerik
I find it hard to believe that any of these people would seriously enjoy living in any society so choked by perpetual fear of our fellow citizens' mobile arsenals that we feel compelled to carry around assault rifles at all times.
What a dysfunctional hell-hole of a country that would be. I have better things to do with my time and money than engage in a perpetual arms race with everyone else around me.
There is zero cost-benefit rationale I can think of that would indicate a pointless escalating spiral of paranoid self-armament has any chance of creating a happier, more productive, and more globally competitive society.
Because really, what we need is to live in a society where everybody is scared that the person next to them might misinterpret their reaching for a pack of smokes in their inner jacket pocket as them going for their piece. Can't imagine I'd want to live in a society where a back-firing car might result in every person around me reflexively unlimbering the shootin' iron.
| 132 |
ReamWorks SKG Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:18:15pm |
re: #130 Amory Blaine
We seriously need better mental health priorities.
Maybe, but not if it means raising my taxes!
/
| 133 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:20:27pm |
If guns are off the table then responsibility lies in better, easier access to quality mental health care.
| 134 |
jaunte Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:20:38pm |
From the GAO, 2011:
"247 of the 272 individuals on the terrorist watch list who attempted to buy firearms last year were cleared to do so. The 25 denials were made for other disqualifying reasons, including felony convictions or histories of spousal abuse."
"Good luck, everyone!"
| 135 |
lawhawk Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:22:20pm |
So, we're supposed to ignore that firearms deaths per 100k tends to be lower in states with strong gun control versus those with weaker gun control?
Here's a list of firearms deaths per 100k.
Now, look at the states which have strong gun control. Note which ones have strong gun control. They happen to be states like NY and CT and both happen to have far lower per capita rates than states with lax gun control.
That's not to say that there is a perfect correlation or that there aren't other factors involved. Strong policing and criminal codes for punishments contribute.
But to argue that adding more guns to the mix while gun free zones should be reduced ignores the larger trends. More guns wouldn't necessarily have saved those kids lives. It's the same argument I made in the aftermath of the Aurora massacre. More guns in the mix could lead to still more injuries and deaths among those caught in the crossfire, and it could potentially lead law enforcement arriving on the scene to target the friendlies in the chaos of the moment. Law enforcement arrived on scene fairly quickly and when the scope of the massacre was just beginning to be understood and called for backup from across the region (and multiple agencies/jurisdictions). If you had more people with guns in civilian clothes, it increased the chances that they could be mistaken for a perpetrator and lead to more casualties - not less. At the same time, it could have slowed the response to deal with the actual perpetrator who could use the chaos to his/her advantage.
Now consider the firearms training for the average Joe. It's going to be far less than your average police officer. And in NYC the NYPD, which is widely considered one of the best in the country, is suffering because firearms training isn't what it should be (and they're building a new state of the art training center to address this deficiency that has led to more collateral casualties than should be expected). So, we're somehow to believe that someone with less training than a police officer is going to deal with a crisis situation better? I think that's wishful thinking and one that could lead to a far more dangerous environment.
| 136 |
Targetpractice Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:22:43pm |
re: #133 Amory Blaine
If guns are off the table then responsibility lies in better, easier access to quality mental health care.
in which case, we most definitely need as a society to get over our hang-up about committing people who visibly need help but won't seek it out. Really, in some ways it comes down to which right we think less inviolate: Self-determination where it concerns our health or our right to haul around a small arsenal.
| 137 |
dragonath Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:25:02pm |
re: #86 William Barnett-Lewis
That's about what I've heard. I found this essay online, which describes what you just said:
The seeds of discontent planted by Carter in 1972 bore fruit in 1977 at the annual meeting in Cincinnati, Ohio. Prior to Cincinnati, friction had grown between two segments in the NRA: the Old Guard and the New Guard. The Old Guard consisted of the then-current NRA leadership and their supporters. Although they defended and promoted handguns for self-defense (the "homely old shotgun," however, was touted as the best home-defense firearm), their primary firearms interest was recreational: marksmanship, hunting and safety training. Their concerns over gun control were limited to its effects on traditional sporting activities. To the Second Amendment fundamentalists of the New Guard, stopping gun control was paramount. To this vocal minority, gun ownership was no longer a recreational issue, but a political one. They viewed the NRA as the last bulwark against a government and newly formed gun control movement that wanted nothing less than the banning of all guns.
| 138 |
The Ghost of a Flea Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:26:05pm |
re: #124 Jaerik
I find it hard to believe that any of these people would seriously enjoy living in any society so choked by perpetual fear of our fellow citizens' mobile arsenals that we feel compelled to carry around assault rifles at all times.
When I read people like Instapundit, the feeling I get is that they really don't want or believe that everybody should be armed. Rather, they desire that they should be armed and everyone else should accept the authority that emanates from their being armed. Furthermore, should they exercise lethal force, we're supposed to respect that decision rather than doubt or question their action. Their violence is just and reasonable a priori. It's gun ownership as mythology.
Built into this whole discussion of being armed at all times is a thread of privilege: specifically that you're the "right kind of person" to be carrying a weapon at all times, and thus that other shouldn't be wary or suspicious of you carrying. Hence the heaping contempt on those that don't want to be armed or are skeptical of always carrying: they're taking it personally.
| 139 |
ReamWorks SKG Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:26:37pm |
From the NYTimes reporting, there's no indication this person showed any signs of being mentally disturbed, though other news stories have been saying this.
Again, I don't like guns and choose not to own any, but I also don't like laws passed after a crime that wouldn't have prevented the crime in the first place (e.g., "Three Strikes" and numerous "Megan's Laws")
If the reports that the shooter had a "personality disorder" are accurate, then the real culprit here is the schoolteacher/mother that kept her legal guns within easy reach of her disturbed son.
| 140 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:26:43pm |
The Casualties - Under Attack (Full Album): youtu.be/ktK1fhsGp40 via @youtube— Gus (@Gus_802) December 15, 2012
| 141 |
Jocko's Rocket Ship Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:29:17pm |
Heh. if grade schools teachers need to be firearm-trained rent-a-cops in addition to their lazy (union) teaching duties, you need to pay them for that. That will add a lot to govt budgets. Hmm, what to do? Right to work, meet for Need-to-Pack law for teachers. Don't like it do something else lazy socialist teachers.
After you militarize schools, that only leaves exposed areas to mass killings to ... everywhere. Even on a military base, Fort Hood, where everyone was highly trained and armed, someone - not even a "soldier" but a MD - killed 13 people and wounded 29. But he was a Muslim so that doesn't count. And not one of those highly trained soldiers managed to get a shot off to kill, just winged him. Glenn would have done better I'm sure.
| 142 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:29:50pm |
Good night all. May the good one bless you and yours.
| 143 |
Targetpractice Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:29:54pm |
re: #139 ReamWorks SKG
From the NYTimes reporting, there's no indication this person showed any signs of being mentally disturbed, though other news stories have been saying this.
Again, I don't like guns and choose not to own any, but I also don't like laws passed after a crime that wouldn't have prevented the crime in the first place (e.g., "Three Strikes" and numerous "Megan's Laws")
I'm not simply looking at this shooting, I'm looking at all of those in recent years. And one of the patterns in major shootings has been that people around them noticed they showed visible sides of mental illness, even as simple as being "weird," but said nothing for fear that it might be misinterpreted.
| 144 |
lawhawk Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:30:02pm |
re: #133 Amory Blaine
That presupposes that those committing these crimes are actually mentally ill or would otherwise be disqualified on mental health grounds.
It might have thwarted the Va Tech shooter, but not necessarily others.
Access to mental health treatment would reduce, but not eliminate the problem.
Combine that with say restrictions on high capacity clips (or ammo-loading devices), and you could still further reduce the potential for mass casualty incidents - but not eliminate them since someone could still obtain multiple clips that could be reloaded. Reloading would be more frequent- meaning someone could have a period of time to stop the shooter.
It's amazing that even that limited step couldn't gain traction after any number of the past mass casualty incidents even after their use contributed to the high number of deaths.
| 145 |
A Man for all Seasons Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:30:12pm |
re: #136 Targetpractice
in which case, we most definitely need as a society to get over our hang-up about committing people who visibly need help but won't seek it out. Really, in some ways it comes down to which right we think less inviolate: Self-determination where it concerns our health or our right to haul around a small arsenal.
Charles and I discussed this several years ago. In the Reagan years the GOP thought it was too expensive to have quality mental care in California.
Napa Had a huge mental hospital that literally emptied on the streets.
It was a huge scandal. The homeless issue in parks and people wandering the Streets of scenic Napa begging for money and buying drugs and booze.
The GOP saved money by cutting money to the most needed citizens among us.
| 146 |
Cap'n Magic Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:31:22pm |
re: #122 Ghost of Tom Joad
Since I do not drink decaf (AAMOF I absolutely Loathe the taste of coffee), and since Herr Frum has already tweeted about lettin' the youngsers pack heat in their lunchboxes next to their SpongeBob/Dora the Explorer Thermos(tm) bottles and GoGurt tubes, I'd just assume take the human equation totally out of the loop. The only issue I see with such a massive deployment is like the old ST:TNG episode: "Who Watches The Watchers?"
| 147 |
ReamWorks SKG Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:36:08pm |
re: #145 A Man for all Seasons
Charles and I discussed this several years ago. In the Reagan years the GOP thought it was too expensive to have quality mental care in California.
Napa Had a huge mental hospital that literally emptied on the streets.
It was a huge scandal. The homeless issue in parks and people wandering the Streets of scenic Napa begging for money and buying drugs and booze.
The GOP saved money by cutting money to the most needed citizens among us.
I'm all for more quality mental health care in California. In fact, the "Meathead" tax (championed by Rob Reiner) passed several years ago to raise money for this very cause: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
My opinion: If mental health is so important, why don't ALL Californians have to pay for it? I voted NO on prop 63, but my fellow Californians overruled me.
| 148 |
Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:36:17pm |
re: #105 Targetpractice
Why am I Mr. Pink?
//
You're the best distraction for when Komen sues you for stealing the color from them.
| 149 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:36:44pm |
re: #124 Jaerik
I find it hard to believe that any of these people would seriously enjoy living in any society so choked by perpetual fear of our fellow citizens' mobile arsenals that we feel compelled to carry around assault rifles at all times.
What a dysfunctional hell-hole of a country that would be. I have better things to do with my time and money than engage in a perpetual arms race with everyone else around me.
There is zero cost-benefit rationale I can think of that would indicate a pointless escalating spiral of paranoid self-armament has any chance of creating a happier, more productive, and more globally competitive society.
Naw you just need one cheap gun, or even a knife. When the world goes all "MadMax" just blind side one of the people who spent a fortune arming themselves. Problem solved, now you have an arsenal too.
///sigh...
| 150 |
bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:36:45pm |
re: #141 Jocko's Rocket Ship
Heh. if grade schools teachers need to be firearm-trained rent-a-cops in addition to their lazy (union) teaching duties, you need to pay them for that. That will add a lot to govt budgets. Hmm, what to do? Right to work, meet for Need-to-Pack law for teachers. Don't like it do something else lazy socialist teachers.
| 151 |
austin_blue Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:37:25pm |
re: #128 William Barnett-Lewis
Would we be having this discussion if freedom of the press and speach did not cover modern technology? No. Tech cuts both ways so if the founders didn't forsee modern firearms they didn't forsee modern communications. So be mad at me if it make you feel better. It won't change the fact that you can't have it both ways.
But we can, and we should. We are better than the wild-west gun-toting culture we live in.
Why can't I own mortars? Or howitzers? Or MANPADS? Or grenades?
Why shouldn't my neighborhood be able to have a micro-nuke available if we get into a war with Pemberton Heights? (Those rich bastards!)
Twenty seven innocents died today, but another 15,000 will be killed with guns this year. It is simply barbaric and inhuman. It must be controlled, and you do that with Legislation. That's how it works.
| 152 |
lawhawk Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:37:43pm |
re: #105 Targetpractice
Because Mr. Purple is on another job. You're Mr. Pink. /Big Joe
Now ramblers, lets get rambling.
| 153 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:37:47pm |
| 154 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:38:22pm |
We always seem to have the wrong reaction to these tragedies. Looking for the easy way out or forcing authority down our throats. Someone will declare war on murderers or something.
| 155 |
Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:39:19pm |
re: #124 Jaerik
I find it hard to believe that any of these people would seriously enjoy living in any society so choked by perpetual fear of our fellow citizens' mobile arsenals that we feel compelled to carry around assault rifles at all times.
What a dysfunctional hell-hole of a country that would be. I have better things to do with my time and money than engage in a perpetual arms race with everyone else around me.
There is zero cost-benefit rationale I can think of that would indicate a pointless escalating spiral of paranoid self-armament has any chance of creating a happier, more productive, and more globally competitive society.
You get the feeling that a lot of these nuts are mentally already living there.
| 156 |
Renaissance_Man Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:39:33pm |
re: #127 Dark_Falcon
We've been over this one: The right to own a gun is a right that cannot be taken away without due process of law (adjudicating someone as mentally ill or convicting them of a crime requires due process, or at least is supposed to). The terrorist watch list, by contrast, does not provide for due process: People are added to it based on criterion that by necessity cannot be revealed to the general public, and once on this list there is no due process procedure for being removed from it. Thus that proposal is a non-starter.
If your Constitutional rights are designed to protect the rights of any fool to arm themselves any way they please over the common sense of not having kids shot, then your Constitution is morally and ethically wrong.
| 157 |
The Ghost of a Flea Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:40:29pm |
re: #148 Feline Fearless Leader
You're the best distraction for when Komen sues you for stealing the color from them.
If we're stealing colors, then I'm annexing International Klein Blue.
| 159 |
b_sharp Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:42:38pm |
re: #141 Jocko's Rocket Ship
Heh. if grade schools teachers need to be firearm-trained rent-a-cops in addition to their lazy (union) teaching duties, you need to pay them for that. That will add a lot to govt budgets. Hmm, what to do? Right to work, meet for Need-to-Pack law for teachers. Don't like it do something else lazy socialist teachers.
After you militarize schools, that only leaves exposed areas to mass killings to ... everywhere. Even on a military base, Fort Hood, where everyone was highly trained and armed, someone - not even a "soldier" but a MD - killed 13 people and wounded 29. But he was a Muslim so that doesn't count. And not one of those highly trained soldiers managed to get a shot off to kill, just winged him. Glenn would have done better I'm sure.
I assume there should be a sarcasm/satire tag after that.
| 160 |
austin_blue Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:42:41pm |
re: #154 Amory Blaine
We always seem to have the wrong reaction to these tragedies. Looking for the easy way out or forcing authority down our throats. Someone will declare war on murderers or something.
Authority to prevent anarchy is a good thing. And today was anarchy, no mistake. The system completely failed its citizens. It must be fixed. This town, according to the Police chief, hadn't had a murder in ten years. And now this.
This system is broken. What to do? Nothing? Is that acceptable?
| 161 |
dragonath Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:42:50pm |
re: #141 Jocko's Rocket Ship
This better be sarcasm. Especially on a day like today.
| 162 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:43:34pm |
re: #141 Jocko's Rocket Ship
They were not armed though, those soldiers were filling out pre-deployment paperwork in preparation to be shipped overseas. No one was carrying a gun, soldiers on bases stateside do not carry weapons unless they are standing post or there is an alert.
| 163 |
bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:44:19pm |
| 165 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:45:25pm |
re: #156 Renaissance_Man
If your Constitutional rights are designed to protect the rights of any fool to arm themselves any way they please over the common sense of not having kids shot, then your Constitution is morally and ethically wrong.
I did not say that. But rights guaranteed in the Constitution cannot be taken away without due process. A terrorist watch list cannot employ due process or it will become ineffective (because if you make public the criteria for putting someone on a watch list, terrorists will adapt so as to avoid those list criteria). Thus being on a terrorist watch list cannot be used a criteria to deny someone a firearm without making the list ineffective or denying that person due process (which is unconstitutional).
| 166 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:47:00pm |
re: #141 Jocko's Rocket Ship
Heh. if grade schools teachers need to be firearm-trained rent-a-cops in addition to their lazy (union) teaching duties, you need to pay them for that. That will add a lot to govt budgets. Hmm, what to do? Right to work, meet for Need-to-Pack law for teachers. Don't like it do something else lazy socialist teachers.
After you militarize schools, that only leaves exposed areas to mass killings to ... everywhere. Even on a military base, Fort Hood, where everyone was highly trained and armed, someone - not even a "soldier" but a MD - killed 13 people and wounded 29. But he was a Muslim so that doesn't count. And not one of those highly trained soldiers managed to get a shot off to kill, just winged him. Glenn would have done better I'm sure.
Don't try so hard next time.
| 167 |
Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:47:07pm |
re: #163 bratwurst
re: #161 dragonath
Come on, what better time to score points against us greedy teachers than when 20 school children have been murdered?
Yea. I bet you were boldly throwing yourselves in the gunman's way in hope of getting that "million dollar" minor wound so that you could then live off the public dime for the rest of your life!
/(massive)
| 168 |
Renaissance_Man Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:48:55pm |
re: #130 Amory Blaine
We seriously need better mental health priorities.
Screw the 'mental health' argument.
It's complete twaddle.
No nation on earth does a good job of handling the mentally ill. It's a difficult aspect of medicine, with no good treatments, and humans react to it negatively the world over. Crazy people are handled badly and treated worse all over the world.
The difference is, here in the US, your mentally ill are heavily armed. And when one of them kills a bunch of people, even kids, you wring your hands about it for a few days and then move on, ignoring the issue and dumping it in the too hard basket. And then tut-tut about 'politics' if anyone dares to mention the Holy Firearm, because heaven forbid we talk about the sacred guns in the aftermath of the shooting of the week. Only motherhood statements about your prayers being with the families and mourning as a nation are allowed, because they don't offend the Church of the Gun.
And now, motherhood statements about 'mental health' are de rigueur too. Like somehow, if only we can do what has never happened in human history and adequately care for and heal the mentally ill, then it'll be totally okay for people to cuddle their guns to sleep and your fellow citizens won't be massacred at unconscionable rates.
Well, fuck that.
| 169 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:50:08pm |
re: #160 austin_blue
Like I said about expanding mental health. Is there the political will though? Improving access and quality of mental health will produce good dividends but we have a party that won't raise taxes one penny. Freedom isn't free and having unfettered access to guns has a cost to society.
| 170 |
bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:51:43pm |
Sorry but prayers and giving your kids hugs fix nothing; only having the balls to stand up to our insane selfish gun culture will.— Bill Maher (@billmaher) December 15, 2012
| 171 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:53:10pm |
Gun control advocates haven't exactly been winning.
| 172 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:56:29pm |
Fact is that the Republicans in the House ain't gonna do shit. People can call for the President to submit legislation, to politicize this and make noise, but that's all it will accomplish. Do the Brady Campaign spokespeople really think that if the President doesn't push hard for gun control now that people will forget it's the Republicans who are blocking any meaningful reform? Everyone knows who's blocking any meaningful action on handgun control, it isn't a mystery.
I'm seeing a lot of the same old canards about background checks, reinstating an assault weapons ban and fixing the gun show loophole that in reality has nothing to do with gun shows ... shit that coincidentally wouldn't have done a damned thing to prevent this tragedy.
Face it, this is where America is going to be for several more years at the very least. We Democrats lost the gun control debate and are still paying a political price for the original, completely ineffectual and pointless, assault weapons ban. Obama and the Democrats probably aren't going to waste too much of whatever political capital they have right now on such a Sisyphean task as trying to push gun control through the current House. At best they'll head fake in that direction just long enough to make it clear to everyone, again, who the obstructionists really are.
| 173 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:57:17pm |
Adam Lanza's mother did not teach at the school. He apparently just wanted to slaughter children.
| 175 |
Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:59:21pm |
re: #173 Charles Johnson
Adam Lanza's mother did not teach at the school. He apparently just wanted to slaughter children.
What a monster.
| 176 |
Jocko's Rocket Ship Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:59:55pm |
Clearly my satire of Instapundit was not well-received. I've been reading here for many years, never been more outraged by the right than today. So I joined.
To the extent that service members were carrying arms at Fort Hood is not really the point. The point- which I think was clear - is it's ludicrous to expect suburban grade school teachers to be prepared to stop an assault when an army base full of soldiers cant. So fuck off if you don't like it
| 177 |
austin_blue Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:05:57pm |
re: #168 Renaissance_Man
Screw the 'mental health' argument.
It's complete twaddle.
No nation on earth does a good job of handling the mentally ill. It's a difficult aspect of medicine, with no good treatments, and humans react to it negatively the world over. Crazy people are handled badly and treated worse all over the world.
The difference is, here in the US, your mentally ill are heavily armed. And when one of them kills a bunch of people, even kids, you wring your hands about it for a few days and then move on, ignoring the issue and dumping it in the too hard basket. And then tut-tut about 'politics' if anyone dares to mention the Holy Firearm, because heaven forbid we talk about the sacred guns in the aftermath of the shooting of the week. Only motherhood statements about your prayers being with the families and mourning as a nation are allowed, because they don't offend the Church of the Gun.
And now, motherhood statements about 'mental health' are de rigueur too. Like somehow, if only we can do what has never happened in human history and adequately care for and heal the mentally ill, then it'll be totally okay for people to cuddle their guns to sleep and your fellow citizens won't be massacred at unconscionable rates.
Well, fuck that.
re: #169 Amory Blaine
Like I said about expanding mental health. Is there the political will though? Improving access and quality of mental health will produce good dividends but we have a party that won't raise taxes one penny. Freedom isn't free and having unfettered access to guns has a cost to society.
Guess whose post I like better? RenMan, take a bow! The status quo must change.
| 178 |
JAFO Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:09:32pm |
re: #176 Jocko's Rocket Ship
you might want to use // at the end of comments meant as satire to denote it as such. It doesn't always translate well to text.
| 179 |
bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:10:32pm |
re: #178 JAFO
you might want to use // at the end of comments meant as satire to denote it as such. It doesn't always translate well to text.
One might assume someone who has been reading LGF for "years" would know that already.
| 180 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:11:47pm |
Here's the problem in a graphical nutshell. Over the last twenty to thirty years, at the same time that more and more guns were concentrated into fewer and fewer hands, US public support for stricter gun control laws tanked.
| 181 |
JAFO Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:11:49pm |
re: #179 bratwurst
One might assume someone who has been reading LGF for "years" would know that already.
I didn't
| 182 |
Renaissance_Man Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:13:58pm |
re: #177 austin_blue
re: #169 Amory Blaine
Guess whose post I like better? RenMan, take a bow! The status quo must change.
I don't care whether my argument is eloquent or not today. The fact remains that a lot of parents and grandparents cannot cuddle their children this Christmas because a small minority of you want to cuddle their guns instead.
And while some of you rightly find that revolting, the sad truth is that as a nation, America thinks that's okay.
| 183 |
BongCrodny Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:15:28pm |
re: #176 Jocko's Rocket Ship
Clearly my satire of Instapundit was not well-received. I've been reading here for many years, never been more outraged by the right than today. So I joined.
To the extent that service members were carrying arms at Fort Hood is not really the point. The point- which I think was clear - is it's ludicrous to expect suburban grade school teachers to be prepared to stop an assault when an army base full of soldiers cant. So fuck off if you don't like it
I read it as satire.
But if you plan to stick around, "my apologies for any misinterpretation" works a lot better than "so fuck off if you don't like it."
| 184 |
Jaerik Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:15:47pm |
re: #156 Renaissance_Man
If your Constitutional rights are designed to protect the rights of any fool to arm themselves any way they please over the common sense of not having kids shot, then your Constitution is morally and ethically wrong.
No document is perfect. While overwhelmingly worthy of praise in aggregate, the original Constitution was morally and ethically wrong in a number of ways, not the least of which was its grudging acceptance of slavery. 625,000 Americans later died to fix that mistake.
I can accept that the Constitution grants a right to bear arms while simultaneously believing it was a fundamental mistake to do so.
There was a very well-intentioned theory, informed by the reality of the situation when the Constitution was ratified, that only a well-armed populace could prevent a government from oppressing its own people.
That hasn't turned out to be the case. The current US federal government has more firepower than the rest of the world combined, plus enough cruise missiles and nuclear weapons to blow up the planet several hundred times over. It is not fear of crazy Uncle Jerry's .22 and closet full of ammo that's preventing them from going full Stalin on us.
| 185 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:16:51pm |
re: #177 austin_blue
We need to make it harder to get guns and make people responsible for securing them.
| 186 |
Kronocide Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:16:57pm |
re: #178 JAFO
you might want to use // at the end of comments meant as satire to denote it as such. It doesn't always translate well to text.
You also might not want to say fuck off when you made the mistake in the first place.
| 187 |
Kronocide Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:20:07pm |
GUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the fifth exclamation point it starts sounding rational.
| 188 |
austin_blue Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:21:18pm |
re: #182 Renaissance_Man
I don't care whether my argument is eloquent or not today. The fact remains that a lot of parents and grandparents cannot cuddle their children this Christmas because a small minority of you want to cuddle their guns instead.
And while some of you rightly find that revolting, the sad truth is that as a nation, America thinks that's okay.
Ding ding ding ding!
GMTA. ;-) We seem to be in complete agreement tonight.
Okay, Lizards, I am for the rack. Good night all, and sweet scaly dreams.
| 189 |
Amory Blaine Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:25:00pm |
And I don't think dismissing the mental health aspect of our gun problem out of hand is constructive. If we didn't live in a country that treated health care like widget production we may have better outcomes. I mean even people with good careers can have inadequate mental health benefits. Restrictions would be good but it all doesn't have to be one approach.
| 190 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:27:47pm |
Birds of a feather...
Huckabee is right: we should pray to God BEFORE these tragedies instead of waiting until it's too late.
— Bryan Fischer (@BryanJFischer) December 15, 2012
| 191 |
Kragar Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:31:04pm |
re: #190 Four More Tears
Birds of a feather...
[Embedded content]
I pray every day that Bryan Fischer shuts the fuck up and it never works.
| 192 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:31:10pm |
Photo: Evening vigil tonight in #Newtown instagr.am/p/TPe87uB4pB/ (@franzstrasser)
— Weed Dude (@weeddude) December 15, 2012
| 193 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:31:36pm |
re: #191 Kragar
I pray every day that Bryan Fischer shuts the fuck up and it never works.
Pray harder.
| 194 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:34:48pm |
re: #189 Amory Blaine
And I don't think dismissing the mental health aspect of our gun problem out of hand is constructive. If we didn't live in a country that treated health care like widget production we may have better outcomes. I mean even people with good careers can have inadequate mental health benefits. Restrictions would be good but it all doesn't have to be one approach.
Yeah, it's easy for people who live in countries with universal healthcare to grasp how completely fucked and on their own the mentally ill are in the United States.
| 195 |
CuriousLurker Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:44:13pm |
re: #190 Four More Tears
Birds of a feather...
[Embedded content]
These sadistic pricks just can't resist twisting the knife one more time, can they?
| 196 |
simoom Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:46:05pm |
I was poking around HotAir, looking back to around the time of the President's statement, mostly out of morbid curiosity. There was all the vitriol you'd typically expect, but this one actually made me do a double-take:
Did anyone notice that he managed to give the nation ‘the finger’ as he he wiped away an invisible tear?
LegendHasIt on December 14, 2012 at 3:34 PM
On top of giving us ‘the finger’, he also takes every opportunity to display his golden islamic terror ring.
Pork-Chop on December 14, 2012 at 3:53 PM
Bolding is mine. "Golden Islamic Terror Ring"? I must have missed whatever episode of nutty RW mythology that one sprung from, but it sounds right up there with "terrorist fist jab."
| 197 |
CuriousLurker Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:46:54pm |
re: #183 BongCrodny
But if you plan to stick around, "my apologies for any misinterpretation" works a lot better than "so fuck off if you don't like it."
Indeed.
| 198 |
Jocko's Rocket Ship Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:50:06pm |
Many sorries. Never posted so the satire denotation didn't register. I take back the 'fuck off" thing 100%. I'm a little amped up with hate for Reynolds et al.
I guess it's a sad that the post was plausible, but I should know better. I'll try to do better next time.
| 199 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:50:07pm |
Feather removed from inside babies swollen jaw, freaky story...
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]
Glad that everything came out all right in the end.
| 200 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:53:15pm |
re: #196 simoom
Bolding is mine. "Golden Islamic Terror Ring"? I must have missed whatever episode of nutty RW mythology that one sprung from, but it sounds right up there with "terrorist fist jab."
Here ya go...
[Link: www.wnd.com...]
| 201 |
CuriousLurker Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:55:35pm |
re: #196 simoom
Bolding is mine. "Golden Islamic Terror Ring"? I must have missed whatever episode of nutty RW mythology that one sprung from, but it sounds right up there with "terrorist fist jab."
How could you miss that episode? Here's Snopes on the ring. It supposedly says "Allah". The other part is that he got it when he married his gay Pakistani lover. Don't even ask me what depths of depraved wingnut lunacy that came from because I can't remember now, but it was all over the place for a while.
| 203 |
palomino Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:56:45pm |
re: #198 Jocko's Rocket Ship
Many sorries. Never posted so the satire denotation didn't register. I take back the 'fuck off" thing 100%. I'm a little amped up with hate for Reynolds et al.
I guess it's a sad that the post was plausible, but I should know better. I'll try to do better next time.
No worries. I thought it was pretty clear from your second paragraph that your first paragraphy was totally sarcastic. Pretty funny too.
After you militarize schools, that only leaves exposed areas to mass killings to ... everywhere...
Don't leave just cuz someone told you to "fuck off." That happens here with some frequency, and it's usually no big deal.
| 204 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:57:29pm |
re: #200 watching you tiny alien kittens are
And here is one of the debunks for the "Muslim/Allah ring" meme...
[Link: www.snopes.com...]
| 205 |
CuriousLurker Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:57:41pm |
| 206 |
Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:58:42pm |
Because things aren't depressing enough, a reminder that the horrors done to children are ongoing.
New York Hasidic counselor found guilty of repeatedly sexually abusing girl
A religious counselor in Brooklyn's ultra-orthodox Jewish community was convicted Monday of the sustained sexual abuse of a girl who was sent to him with questions about her faith.
The courtroom was silent as Nechemya Weberman was convicted of 59 counts, including sustained sex abuse of a child, endangering the welfare of a child and other counts. He faces 25 years in prison on the top charge and two to seven years on the lesser charges.
The abuse of positions of trust is far too common with children. This is an especially heinous one, taking advantage of the trust that a religious community puts in its leader.
The victim testified that she and her family were harassed and shunned for coming forward; her father lost his business and her nieces were kicked out of school.
During the trial, which began last week, three men were charged with criminal contempt for snapping images of the accuser on the witness stand with cellphone cameras and posting them online. And before the trial began, Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hynes charged other men with trying to bribe the accuser to drop the charges.
These men are utter cowards, and their misogynistic fanaticism is what enables the abuse and rape of young girls. I hope that this particular Hasidic community responds to this conviction with soul-searching and not with defensiveness. Sadly, I fear that will not be the case.
| 208 |
Kronocide Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:59:55pm |
re: #203 palomino
No worries. I thought it was pretty clear from your second paragraph that your first paragraphy was totally sarcastic. Pretty funny too.
Don't leave just cuz someone told you to "fuck off." That happens here with some frequency, and it's usually no big deal.
FUCK.THE.FUCK.OFF.
How was mom's casserole?
| 209 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:00:26pm |
MT @bylinebeat: CORRECTION: Metro Police confirming one male dead, one female transported to UMC in a shooting inside the Excalibur.
— Weed Dude (@weeddude) December 15, 2012
| 210 |
BongCrodny Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:00:36pm |
re: #204 watching you tiny alien kittens are
And here is one of the debunks for the "Muslim/Allah ring" meme...
[Link: www.snopes.com...]
The images look like snakes.
Clearly, Obama is a Hindu.
| 211 |
freetoken Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:01:01pm |
re: #184 Jaerik
One of the hurdles to overcome, for anyone who wishes to address the very real but too-often denied weaknesses of the Constitution is that for a large portion of Americans the Constitution has been blended seamlessly with their theistic (nominally "Christian") religion.
So now by implying that the Constitution was written with errors you're staring down the same barrel as suggesting the Bible is full of errors.
And that is a tough row to hoe.
| 212 |
Tigger2005 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:01:12pm |
re: #128 William Barnett-Lewis
Would we be having this discussion if freedom of the press and speach did not cover modern technology? No. Tech cuts both ways so if the founders didn't forsee modern firearms they didn't forsee modern communications. So be mad at me if it make you feel better. It won't change the fact that you can't have it both ways.
Yes, you can. Don't be ridiculous.
| 213 |
CuriousLurker Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:01:54pm |
re: #206 Obdicut
Upding, but I'm not gonna read it. I can't take any more today.
| 214 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:02:38pm |
LAS VEGAS -- Metro Police have confirmed a shooting at the Excalibur Hotel in Las Vegas Friday night.
A female has been shot and transported to University Medical Center. The suspected gunman then shot himself, the police said.
The Excalibur casino and hotel, on the southwest corner of Las Vegas Boulevard South and Tropicana Avenue, is owned by MGM Resorts International.
| 215 |
Four More Tears Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:03:06pm |
re: #213 CuriousLurker
Upding, but I'm not gonna read it. I can't take any more today.
It's a brand new day...
| 216 |
palomino Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:05:16pm |
re: #208 Kronocide
FUCK.THE.FUCK.OFF.
How was mom's casserole?
That's it, FUCK YOU. I'm leaving, for good...or until later this weekend.
Mom's casserole? As usual, I threw it up.
| 217 |
Jocko's Rocket Ship Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:07:09pm |
re: #203 palomino
Thanks. It's my first day. I thought the idea from wingers that (unionized) teachers should be required to learn to pack a couple of days after the they insisted workers should be required to not pay union dues ...err... agency fees was pretty a pretty important point to mock.
| 218 |
BongCrodny Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:09:15pm |
re: #206 Obdicut
Because things aren't depressing enough, a reminder that the horrors done to children are ongoing.
New York Hasidic counselor found guilty of repeatedly sexually abusing girl
The abuse of positions of trust is far too common with children. This is an especially heinous one, taking advantage of the trust that a religious community puts in its leader.
These men are utter cowards, and their misogynistic fanaticism is what enables the abuse and rape of young girls. I hope that this particular Hasidic community responds to this conviction with soul-searching and not with defensiveness. Sadly, I fear that will not be the case.
There's a link below that story to an even worse crime.
I'm not going to bring it over here. Like CL, I'm thinking it's too much for one day.
| 219 |
jaunte Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:10:15pm |
#nra because nothing says blame like the violent nihilistic culture gun grabbers support. Dads abandoning their kids teachers who attack
— Stephanie Janiczek (@SMjaniczek) December 15, 2012
Doesn't ONE child's life outweigh that right? Wouldn't you give it up to bring them back? Let love rule. Lenny
— Lenny Kravitz (@LennyKravitz) December 14, 2012
Contrasts.
| 221 |
bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:15:25pm |
re: #217 Jocko's Rocket Ship
Thanks. It's my first day. I thought the idea from wingers that (unionized) teachers should be required to learn to pack a couple of days after the they insisted workers should be required to not pay union dues ...err... agency fees was pretty a pretty important point to mock.
Sorry to have over-reacted. However, the fact that this awful tragedy had already lead to one troll turning up today led me to jump to conclusions and not get past the first paragraph of your initial post.
| 222 |
jaunte Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:29:46pm |
The Saturday front page of the @hartfordcourant twitter.com/Niteshift/stat… (@richarddeitsch) #Newtown
— Weed Dude (@weeddude) December 15, 2012
| 223 |
Mich-again Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:32:54pm |
An article on Michigan’s RTC law: “Concerns that permit holders would lose their tempers in traffic accidents have been unfounded. Worries about risks to police officers have also proved unfounded.... National surveys of police show they support concealed handgun laws by a 3-1 margin....There is also not a single academic study that claims Right to Carry laws have increased state crime rates. The debate among academics has been over how large the benefits have been.”11
Yeah but... That synopsis disregards what happens when legally obtained weapons end up in the wrong hands. Its just simple math. The more legal weapons there are out there, the more will be used illegally for one reason or another.
| 225 |
prairiefire Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:51:34pm |
So, Deathcab for Cutie band gets their name from the Beatles Magical Mystery Tour movie. Did not know that.
| 226 |
A Man for all Seasons Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:53:18pm |
re: #225 prairiefire
So, Deathcab for Cutie band gets their name from the Beatles Magical Mystery Tour movie. Did not know that.
I didn't know that.. I like them a lot
| 227 |
KingKenrod Fri, Dec 14, 2012 11:12:51pm |
re: #225 prairiefire
So, Deathcab for Cutie band gets their name from the Beatles Magical Mystery Tour movie. Did not know that.
The Bonzo Dog Band song existed before the movie...
| 228 |
dragonath Fri, Dec 14, 2012 11:16:55pm |
IBM supercomputer used to simulate a typical human brain
Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, doesn't it?
| 229 |
Jocko's Rocket Ship Fri, Dec 14, 2012 11:18:30pm |
re: #221 bratwurst
Thanks too. I come in mad like HULK and pound with satire on tough day. No one know me. Bad.
I'm in Banner mode now.
| 230 |
prairiefire Fri, Dec 14, 2012 11:19:15pm |
re: #227 KingKenrod
The Bonzo Dog Band song existed before the movie...
[Embedded content]
Thanks, I didn't think it was a Beatles tune.
| 233 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Dec 14, 2012 11:34:48pm |
re: #232 prairiefire
And sun warmed rocks in the morning.
| 235 |
researchok Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:25:03am |
| 236 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:11:04am |
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
| 237 |
dragonath Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:45:34am |
CataCombo sound system coffin plays music you'll take to the grave
With speakers in the coffin linked to a server in the gravestone controllable via Spotify, the system redefines the concept of life after death.
| 239 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:47:10am |
I hate website moderators at news sites that remove your comments solely because you point out errors in the content the site has published. :(
So rather than reply with a "gee thanks for pointing that out we will correct that error shortly" they just nuke your comment. Then leave their mistakes up until someone eventually gets around to correcting it hours later without ever acknowledging they made an error in the first place.
This shit today with the non-stop stream of reporting errors by the press, many of which still have not been corrected, is part of the reason many people no longer trust the accuracy of the news.
asshats...
| 240 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:02:03am |
TIME TRAVELERS OF THE BIBLE: HOW HEBREW PROPHETS SHATTERED THE BARRIERS OF TIME-SPACE
Gary Stearman | Defender, 2011
In the late 1960s, while piloting a routine flight from Dallas to Lubbock, Texas, Gary Stearman encountered a UFO, which “probed” him with “waves of energy” and “opened [his] mind to the absolute reality of beings who have what appears to be a technology that’s eons ahead of ours.”
In Time Travelers of the Bible, Stearman reveals that the beings he mistook for aliens were, in fact, divine in origin – angels or demons (he’s not sure which) who became momentarily visible through a transdimensional portal that must have opened just as he was flying by.
Such entities have traveled between dimensions for millennia, Stearman says. Intent on destroying God’s plan, demonic “Sons of God” have for millennia attempted to “tilt the minds of human leaders toward the cause of Satan,” at times even taking human brides to produce half-demonic offspring, including the Greek gods Zeus and Apollo. The Flood wiped out the first generation of their spawn, Stearman says, but now — as prophesied by time travelers like Adam, Moses, Jesus and John — they’re back and gaining strength.
When the Tribulation comes, God’s chosen will be taken to Heaven (which is actually a cube-shaped “mobile city” from a parallel universe, “capable of navigating time-space in the dimensions between heaven and earth”). Those who remain will be ruled by Satan and his minions, who even now wait in Hades, a cavernous realm beneath the earth’s surface which is accessible only to shamans and occultists capable of “popping through” the “dimensional door in time-space” that protects coal miners and others whose work takes them beneath the earth’s surface from accidental encounters with the underworld.
Confused? You won’t be after reading Stearman’s book, which, according to prophecy expert Thomas Horn, “is not just a key, but the key to understanding the elusive scientific and supernatural wisdom surrounding a Grand Universal Theory of Everything that just happens to be located at a pivotal ‘center of the symmetry of time’ at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.”
LMFAO!
This is part of a SPLC article on WorldNet Daily pumping out ridiculous propaganda.
| 241 |
Kragar Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:19:02am |
re: #240 watching you tiny alien kittens are
TIME TRAVELERS OF THE BIBLE: HOW HEBREW PROPHETS SHATTERED THE BARRIERS OF TIME-SPACE
LMFAO!
This is part of a SPLC article on WorldNet Daily pumping out ridiculous propaganda.
Are Aliens really ancient figures from the Bibles?
No. Next stupid question.
| 242 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:25:15am |
re: #240 watching you tiny alien kittens are
Heh. I'm a prophecy expert too. Ready to hear my expertise?
There's no such thing as prophecy
Bam!
| 243 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:28:26am |
If you believe in the concept of virgins giving birth and dead people getting up and walking away from their graves, then you are ready to accept about anything...
| 244 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:31:55am |
And yay, the spirit of Christmas!
[Link: usnews.nbcnews.com...]
But a menorah in Miami Beach, Fla., has also become an attraction for hate speech, with someone scribbling "you killed Jesus" on the base of the prominent Chabad Hanukkah display.
| 245 |
Kragar Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:33:53am |
re: #244 Obdicut
And yay, the spirit of Christmas!
[Link: usnews.nbcnews.com...]
Which is ironic considering anyone that racist has probably talked about killing a few people named Jesus more than a few times.
| 246 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:34:11am |
re: #244 Obdicut
And yay, the spirit of Christmas!
[Link: usnews.nbcnews.com...]
I would venture say this has more to do with people being bigoted, drunk and stoopid than with Anti-Semitism. Or has Mel Gibson been sighted in Malibu lately?
| 247 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:36:58am |
re: #246 Sol Berdinowitz
I would venture say this has more to do with bigoted, drunk and stoopid than Anti-Semitism. Or has Mel Gibson been sighted in Malibu lately?
I hope so. I dunno. I think if you write "fuck kikes" and a swastika, even if you are drunk you're probably anti-semitic too.
| 248 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:38:57am |
yes, I did not say there was not an anti-Semitic element in there, but I would also venture to say that this person was probably not sober or educated enough to understand anything about Judaism beyond the standard clichés.
| 249 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:47:48am |
re: #211 freetoken
One of the hurdles to overcome, for anyone who wishes to address the very real but too-often denied weaknesses of the Constitution is that for a large portion of Americans the Constitution has been blended seamlessly with their theistic (nominally "Christian") religion.
So now by implying that the Constitution was written with errors you're staring down the same barrel as suggesting the Bible is full of errors.
And that is a tough row to hoe.
I'd counter that the US Constitution is seen by most people as a bulwark against overweening government. Thus any attempt to 'fix' any flaw in the document runs afoul of public fears that changes will leave them vulnerable to official predation. This is further tied into the fact in many cases these days people from urban areas and 'flyover country' hold each other in contempt. Amending the Constitution is justly hard, but it is impossible when a percentage of people sufficient to defeat the proposed change will automatically oppose it because it came from the opposing faction.
| 250 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:56:26am |
If you accept as a postulate that "We Are a Christian Nation", then yes, you tend to see the Constitution as being divinely inspired as the Old and New Testaments.
| 251 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:31:24am |
In the last half-hour Fox conservative entertainment media has managed to say that the guns used in the school shooting were legally purchased and registered 13 times.
Because everyone knows that if you want people to remember your point you should repeat it as much as possible should repeat it as much as possible should repeat it as much as possible. Because everyone knows that if you want people to remember your point you should repeat it as much as possible should repeat it as much as possible should repeat it as much as possible.
| 252 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:32:57am |
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
| 253 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:34:25am |
re: #251 watching you tiny alien kittens are
| 254 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:37:40am |
re: #251 watching you tiny alien kittens are
Okay they were legally purchased. My question is how were they stored. If they were in a drawer and not locked up with a trigger lock, there might be some issues with that.
| 255 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:39:59am |
re: #253 watching you tiny alien kittens are
| 256 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:46:56am |
Fox now blaming video games, really!
| 257 |
kirkspencer Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:48:20am |
re: #254 PhillyPretzel
Okay they were legally purchased. My question is how were they stored. If they were in a drawer and not locked up with a trigger lock, there might be some issues with that.
I'm beginning to think that's a red herring. Yes, it was his mother who owned the weapons.
But (most recent reports indicate) he killed his mother at home.
I'm beginning to think we should treat this as:
This nutbar entered the home of a woman, killed her, and stole her guns which he then used to shoot a number of children. He knew the woman so knew about the firearms.
| 258 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:48:21am |
Oh, and autism causing "delusional thinking," kids with autism should all be on involuntary medication!
| 259 |
Shiplord Kirel Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:51:23am |
I have to have a license to drive a car, I have to have a license to fly a plane, I have to have a license to call myself a geologist, I had to have a license to get married. I DON'T need a license for the half dozen guns I own, a couple of which are actual weapons of war. There is something very, very wrong in this picture. Require the damned license, make people prove they are at least sane and know how to handle guns. It is not too much to ask and it does not infringe any kind of rationally defined right. I will be first in line to apply for such a license. We don't do this because a paranoid sub-culture is afraid such a requirement will lead to tyranny. If we are that close to the edge a few million small arms in the hands of mostly ill-trained and disorganized fantasists are not going to help. Enough already. And go screw yourself, Wayne LaPierre, leader of nut cakes and conspiracy believers.
| 260 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:52:50am |
So the Fox solution is to either ban or severely limit video game exposure and rework the video game ratings again. Because obviously playing video games turned this kid into a crack shot and practiced commando!
Oh, and then forcibly medicate anyone appearing abnormal into a state of drooling idiocy of course.
| 261 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:57:50am |
re: #194 goddamnedfrank
Yeah, it's easy for people who live in countries with universal healthcare to grasp how completely fucked and on their own the mentally ill are in the United States.
The mentally ill are fucked everywhere. Universal health care doesn't make that magically better. Humans are still humans, and every country underfunds and undertreats the mentally ill.
The elephant in the room that this nation cannot acknowledge is that here, they have free and easy access to guns. And they have this access because America slavishly worships guns, and values guns over the lives of its children.
But to acknowledge that is taboo, so we can't talk about the elephant in the room. Instead we have to pretend that if only we can achieve the impossible and treat the mentally sick perfectly, the national gun fetish will all be okay.
It's like if every oven in the nation was powered by nitroglycerine, and exploding ovens killed tens of thousands of people every year. And every time it happened, people shrugged and said, 'Well, we've just got to do a better job of inventing cold fusion.'
| 262 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:57:53am |
re: #260 watching you tiny alien kittens are
So the Fox solution is to either ban or severely limit video game exposure and rework the video game ratings again. Because obviously playing video games turned this kid into a crack shot and practiced commando!
Funny how this "logic" isn't applied to, you know, going to a firing range and pretending to shoot someone, then hanging out with your buddies who fantasize about how awesomely competent and brave you'll be when the target isn't paper.
Oh, and then forcibly medicate anyone appearing abnormal into a state of drooling idiocy of course.
Leitmotif #448 in the larger theme of modern American "conservatism": Rights For Me, But Fuck You For Being Different.
| 263 |
freetoken Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:58:22am |
re: #259 Shiplord Kirel
Require the damned license, make people prove they are at least sane and know how to handle guns.
Seems to me to fall under the "well regulated" stipulation.
| 264 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:00:52am |
re: #257 kirkspencer
I'm beginning to think that's a red herring. Yes, it was his mother who owned the weapons.
But (most recent reports indicate) he killed his mother at home.
I'm beginning to think we should treat this as:
This nutbar entered the home of a woman, killed her, and stole her guns which he then used to shoot a number of children. He knew the woman so knew about the firearms.
He did kill his mother at home, he lived there with her. They are saying that the kid was a genius in some ways, just not very socially functional. Even if the guns were locked up in a gun safe or locker (which they might have been) he probably could have (or did) get to them.
| 265 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:03:57am |
They are getting set to start the morning press conference at the shooting scene. Should be starting in the next few minutes.
| 266 |
kirkspencer Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:14:02am |
Just for reference (from the 2011 CDC deaths report)
Guns and vehicles were the cause of roughly the same number of deaths last year (around 32,000 each).
Drugs killed more (around 44,000) and alcohol a bit less (around 26,000).
Accidental poisonings took another roughly 33,000.
There were over 38,000 suicides. 19,000 of those used firearms (overlaps earlier number), the rest were unspecified (does not overlap accidental poisoning number).
There were 2.5 million deaths last year. The bulk were from disease. Complicated by old age in a lot of cases, but the 'cause' was various diseases.
| 268 |
ProMayaLiberal Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:16:46am |
Well, last night the EDL showed how monstrous they are:
| 269 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:18:25am |
Fox's expert is telling them how cops hate hollow point bullets "because they are designed to penetrate bullet proof vests." Good grief...
Then says that the kid had to have been planning this and had help "to stockpile all the ammo." How does he know the mother didn't have the ammo already stored with the guns?
| 270 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:21:21am |
re: #261 Renaissance_Man
You're very right that it's not just the mere presence of guns it's also the culture. I completely agree with you that mental health is not the panacea solution, partially because some people are perfectly sane and still decide to commit mass murder. Sanity doesn't require adherence to morality.
Anyway, compare us to Swizterland, where they have a lot of guns but also a lot of gun control and very non-machismo, non-vengeance, non-vigilante culture. They have a high rate of suicide deaths and accidents from guns as compared to non-gun-having countries, but they don't have the use of the guns in crimes. So it is possible to have guns and to keep gun violence low. It is not possible to fetishize guns, and to have a society with a permanent criminal underclass created by a prison and ghetto system that starts rolling kids in there as teenagers.
The particular guns used in these murders were legally owned by a person that, even under more restrictive gun control laws, would probably be allowed to have them. They may have been unsecured-- if that's the case, I think it'd be a good idea to push for mandatory gun-safes for all gun-owners. This is present in a number of other countries and helps to prevent a lot of crimes.
But I really think the main reasons we have so much gun violence are the fetishizing of guns and the fetishizing of violence, vigilantism, machismo, along with the stupid-ass drug war and the number of people that sends through our meatgrinder prison system.
| 271 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:23:01am |
I have an idea. Let us look at some of the gun laws that Switzerland and Israel have and see if we can adapt it to our laws and rules. I think licensing would be a good idea.
| 272 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:39:51am |
You just want to see us all guarding the Pope and manning Gaza checkpoints so you can sneak in the back door and take away the rest of our rights...
| 273 |
Kronocide Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:40:36am |
re: #256 watching you tiny alien kittens are
Fox now blaming video games, really!
Guns don't kill people. Video games kill people.
| 274 |
Kronocide Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:41:45am |
re: #268 ProMayaLiberal
Well, last night the EDL showed how monstrous they are:
Charles needs to see that. Everybody Rec it.
| 275 |
Archangelus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:42:54am |
The gun law in Israel would astonish many: Very few are allowed them. With all of the troubles it has to deal with, and the threats going around, less than 1% of the Israeli population has access to guns.
You need special permission to be allowed one - excluding the military of course, but even there, most of the soldiers do NOT carry weapons on them as many would think. Most soldiers in the IDF are non-combatants, and at best estimates you'd have ~5000 of them carrying weapons out of deployment, including officers. For non military, only few of those living in areas defined as risky are permitted to own a gun, and there are strict limitations on carrying them.
At an all time high estimate, you'd have less than 40,000 people in a country of more than 6 million that have access to weapons.
And here's the important part of all IMO (as someone who served and carried himself): EVERYONE has to undergo lots of mandatory instruction before being allowed them, with quite a few hours dedicated to teaching how and when weapons should never be used. Almost a decade later, I STILL remember the vids I was shown presenting the results of weapon mishandling/accidental weapon fire very vividly (and they weren't even remotely graphic either).
Any one who wants or needs a weapon, in a country surrounded by terror threats, HAS to go through these. No exceptions. NONE.
And with figures showing only a few dozen firearm death per year (most of which are due to fighting between Israeli mob families, mind you), the statistics don't lie.
| 276 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:42:56am |
Funny, 'cause restricting video games (and even things like paintball or laser tag games) is a very European thing: there are lots of US video games that are banned here, they see it as the "slippery slope" to real gun violence.
Expect tons smoke-and-mirrors deflection tactics in the coming week, they are just hoping that we will move on to the next celebrity scandal and forget about this tragedy...
| 277 |
Kronocide Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:49:20am |
re: #270 Obdicut
But I really think the main reasons we have so much gun violence are the fetishizing of guns and the fetishizing of violence, vigilantism, machismo, along with the stupid-ass drug war and the number of people that sends through our meatgrinder prison system.
The only thing I'd add is easy access to guns.
| 278 |
Shiplord Kirel Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:50:43am |
Living large in America! Big guns! Big trucks! Big attitude! Yeeehaaaa!
I literally killed for this country and this bullshit parody of redneck pop culture is what I get for it in my old age.
Nature and the laws of survival will not long tolerate the kind of crazy destructive culture we have in this country right now. There will be a reckoning and a cleansing.
| 279 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:54:26am |
re: #277 Kronocide
The only thing I'd add is easy access to guns.
Sure. But we have easy access to guns because we fetishize them and act as though they're totems of freedom and realistic self-defense weapons etc.
| 280 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:55:28am |
It is also heakening back to some idealized view of Minutemen and Yankee settlers, yeoman farmers and frontiersmen that was already an idealistic vision in Jefferson's time.
I can accept the SCOTUS decision that bearing arms is an individual right, not just for militias, but the "well-regulated" part of it still gets short shrift in our approach to gun legislation.
| 281 |
Archangelus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:55:53am |
re: #277 Kronocide
The only thing I'd add is easy access to guns.
I'd toss in the lack of any genuine weaponry instruction worth a damn. I would not have any problem with the sale of any weapons if it meant that, like in Israel, you HAD to undergo training which also showed you the dangerous consequences. Hell, why can't we have that? We have to have lessons to drive before we're permitted to get a license to use a car, don't we? I think weapons of war and death should merit at least the same obligation.
I always use the Israel Argument: if a country surrounded by threats of terror and war doesn't need so much guns and handles things better, what's our excuse?
| 282 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:57:05am |
This is harsh, but: I don't trust the public figures that talk big about the 2nd Amendment in this country. Most of them are (1) contemptuous of the other civil liberties--and legislate and lobby accordingly--as well as (2) speak often about large demographic sectors of population that they view as "not really American."
I'll go farther and say that a lot of folks--your Huckabees, Breitbarts, and Nugents--really only support the 2nd Amendment because they imagine themselves as counter-cultural figures...specifically, revolutionaries in waiting...and have crafted a mythos in which their manly handling of guns contrasts with effeminate liberal disdain of them (and YES there is a giant gender-essentialist component to it). Were these people in power, given all their wild imagining of who's destroying or corrupting this country, does it really seem like they would allow liberals, homosexuals, and non-Christians to have easy access to guns?
| 283 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:58:18am |
re: #282 The Ghost of a Flea
It goes without saying that they only want to see guns in the "right" hands...
| 284 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:58:24am |
Grumble grumble, boy this 8:00am press conference sure is late, I almost feel sorry for all the reporters clustered around the podium. They have been standing out there in the cold for well over an hour now.
| 285 |
Archangelus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:58:26am |
Thinking of making a post dedicated to the Israeli stats and comparing them to US weapon possession and use... I for one find the differences to be mind-boggling...
| 286 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:01:57am |
re: #285 Archangelus
Thinking of making a post dedicated to the Israeli stats and comparing them to US weapon possession and use... I for one find the differences to be mind-boggling...
I'd really appreciate that.
| 287 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:04:55am |
Good grief the press just keeps changing the story, how much shit did they make up out of thin air yesterday?
Now they are saying that the shooter was not buzzed into the school, something I must have heard about a thousand times in the last 24 hours. The new story is that he just broke or shot the glass out of the door and walked in. I thought it was strange that the first cop on scene reported the glass broken out of the doors on the 911 tape. I just wrote it off to being from stray bullets maybe...
| 288 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:06:12am |
This is what the 24-hour rule is about...news agencies do not have one, they just repeat whatever scraps of information they pick up...
| 289 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:06:14am |
re: #276 Sol Berdinowitz
Funny, 'cause that's a very European thing: there are lots of US video games that are banned here, they see it as the "slippery slope" to real gun violence.
Expect tons smoke-and-mirrors deflection tactics in the coming week, they are just hoping that we will move on to the next celebrity scandal and forget about this tragedy...
The other thing is that European countries may regulate guns fairly heavily but it's still quite possible to own them. I was reading the other day, at a gun site, a thread by a German national about the Colt revolver he'd just bought. Another time, I read how it's legal to own full-auto weapons in Belgium with registration. The Belgian's can actually own bigger guns than _we_ can in one of those delightful moments of irony.
I do believe England and Australia both over reacted and I do not wish to see that here. But there are plenty of other European examples - Czech Republic, Finland, Germany, Switzerland, and so on - that show that there is a place where regulation does not have to be too onerous to allow for sporting, hunting & even self-defense firearms.
The other thing to remember, however, is that even with fairly harsh gun control, you can still have high gun and other violent crime. See Brazil and elsewhere.
| 290 |
Khorramdin Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:08:53am |
If there is so much misinformation and confusion in the aftermath of shooting in the US, imagine how it would be in a far off land, say in Benghazi.
| 291 |
Dr Lizardo Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:10:35am |
re: #274 Kronocide
Charles needs to see that. Everybody Rec it.
I would also suggest someone send that to Pam Gellar as well, with a little caption reading "Nice friends you got there. Stay classy, Pam."
Sick f***s.
| 292 |
Shiplord Kirel Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:11:25am |
In talking to gun cultists, I've learned that many of them do not take their usual stated reasons for scary black gun ownership seriously. They don't really believe in UN occupation or resisting tyranny. What they eventually admit they want the SBGs for is to mow down loot-crazed hordes of "others" in the event of riots or a general breakdown of civil order. Even that, though, is not the core of the onion, there are more layers beneath that one. Why, for example, do you need a fast-firing, high capacity gun to resist looters? Wouldn't popping a couple of them with an old fashioned shotgun persuade the rest to hightail it away? Or are they some kind of fanatical army, who will keep on coming until all are dead? I have not talked to any loot-crazed rioters, but I am pretty sure that is not how they would react to violent resistance. The real purpose, I submit, is to make sure you bag as many of the "others" as possible, once and for all, when the chance finally presents itself.
| 293 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:12:32am |
re: #289 William Barnett-Lewis
there are plenty of other European examples - Czech Republic, Finland, Germany, Switzerland, and so on - that show that there is a place where regulation does not have to be too onerous to allow for sporting, hunting & even self-defense firearms.
The other thing to remember, however, is that even with fairly harsh gun control, you can still have high gun and other violent crime. See Brazil and elsewhere.
Heck, here in Germany, I went down to the local gun club for their open house day and fired off a cap-and-ball pistol just because I was curious to see how they handled...
| 294 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:13:29am |
Fox conservative entertainment media is running with their set narrative...
Now is not the time to talk about knee jerk gun controls or regulations, now is the time to talk about mental health issues. How are we going to identify these sick individuals and force them into treatment and heavily medicate them?
It isn't about guns at all you see, it is about mentally ill people.
| 295 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:18:08am |
re: #290 Khorramdin
If there is so much misinformation and confusion in the aftermath of shooting in the US, imagine how it would be in a far off land, say in Benghazi.
That sounds like your just trying to make excuses for the Obama cover-up that is worser than watergate and iran-Contra combined...because!
BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI!!1!!11!
/
| 296 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:19:26am |
re: #292 Shiplord Kirel
In talking to gun cultists, I've learned that many of them do not take their usual stated reasons for scary black gun ownership seriously. They don't really believe in UN occupation or resisting tyranny. What they eventually admit they want the SBGs for is to mow down loot-crazed hordes of "others" in the event of riots or a general breakdown of civil order. Even that, though, is not the core of the onion, there are more layers beneath that one. Why, for example, do you need a fast-firing, high capacity gun to resist looters? Wouldn't popping a couple of them with an old fashioned shotgun persuade the rest to hightail it away? Or are they some kind of fanatical army, who will keep on coming until all are dead? I have not talked to any loot-crazed rioters, but I am pretty sure that is not how they would react to violent resistance. The real purpose, I submit, is to make sure you bag as many of the "others" as possible, once and for all, when the chance finally presents itself.
Freeper/Sipsey Street terminology is "SHTF gun". The craving for SHTF is obvious.
| 297 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:21:29am |
Ot, in the case of an argument, an STFU gun
| 298 |
Kronocide Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:22:11am |
I've been seeing assertions that 'mass shootings have been declining since 1975' and the like. Recently saw graphs that showed them holding steady, if not a slight uptick.
| 299 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:23:53am |
re: #294 watching you tiny alien kittens are
Fox conservative entertainment media is running with their set narrative...
It isn't about guns at all you see, it is about mentally ill people.
I have no words.
| 300 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:24:07am |
re: #293 Sol Berdinowitz
Heck, here in Germany, I went down to the local gun club for their open house day and fired off a cap-and-ball pistol just because I was curious to see how they handled...
German hunting firearms - Blaser & Krieghoff among others - remain some of the finest (and expensive ;) in the world. I'd love a Krieghoff 2x20/1x9.3x74 drilling with a good Zeiss scope. I'd never need another hunting firearm again.
But these companies exist because there is still a market despite the restrictions in place.
I'm really coming more and more to the idea of tying gun ownership to a national ID/driver's license with a mandatory training class in High School as well as requirements for keeping the guns secure (especially since the last two and many other incidents involve stolen guns) with serious penalties for failure.
| 301 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:26:32am |
re: #296 Decatur Deb
Freeper/Sipsey Street terminology is "SHTF gun". The craving for SHTF is obvious.
That is the real origin of Zombies in the gun culture. All zombies are black or brown or yellow and the only thing to do is shoot them. Even more disgusting are the companies pandering to this. I no longer buy Hornady products since they came out with their "anti-zombie" ammunition brand.
| 302 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:27:37am |
re: #292 Shiplord Kirel
Why, for example, do you need a fast-firing, high capacity gun to resist looters? Wouldn't popping a couple of them with an old fashioned shotgun persuade the rest to hightail it away? Or are they some kind of fanatical army, who will keep on coming until all are dead?
At the core of the post-collapse gun fantasy are a lot of presumptions that recapitulate existing privilege and prejudice. Gun owner/survivalist types posit themselves as the rational "civilized" and that everyone else will descend into barbarism post-collapse because that's how they already view themselves versus the "other." The pleasure comes from the projected confirmation that their tribal distinctions and subsequent prejudices about race, politics, religion, et cetera wil be true...they will be strong and organized and win, and the "other" will be wicked and incompetent and lose.
More scarily, it's also taking the fantasy of having a legitimate excuse to be violent towards people you don't like and cranking it up to eliminationist levels. It's taking existing political rhetoric and making it literal: there's an existential threat that can only be dealt with by wiping out the opposition.
| 303 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:29:02am |
re: #302 The Ghost of a Flea
It's taking existing political rhetoric and making it literal: there's an existential threat that can only be dealt with by wiping out the opposition.
Yes, that has been the GOP's core philosphy, all this talk about drowning government in a bathtub...
| 304 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:31:12am |
re: #269 watching you tiny alien kittens are
Fox's expert is telling them how cops hate hollow point bullets "because they are designed to penetrate bullet proof vests." Good grief...
Then says that the kid had to have been planning this and had help "to stockpile all the ammo." How does he know the mother didn't have the ammo already stored with the guns?
How dumb do you have to be to fail to understand that a bullet that flattens out on impact isn't going to be very good at punching through armor. But then again Fox denies climate change, so why should they understand any other parts of physics?
| 305 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:32:33am |
re: #302 The Ghost of a Flea
At the core of the post-collapse gun fantasy are a lot of presumptions that recapitulate existing privilege structures. Gun owner/survivalist types posit themselves as the rational "civilized" and that everyone else will descend into barbarism post-collapse because that's how they already view themselves versus the "other." The pleasure comes from the projected confirmation that their tribal distinctions and subsequent prejudices about race, politics, religion, et cetera wil be true...they will be strong and organized and win, and the "other" will be wicked and incompetent and lose.
More scarily, it's also taking the fantasy of having a legitimate excuse to be violent towards people you don't like and cranking it up to eliminationist levels. It's taking existing political rhetoric and making it literal: there's an existential threat that can only be dealt with by wiping out the opposition.
Their thinking goes back at least as far as the 1950's fallout shelter fad, through the Clinton-era militias, Y2K survivalists, and now the Preppers. Earlier than that it blends into the frontier Injun fighter mentality. We've always had them.
| 306 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:35:37am |
re: #305 Decatur Deb
Their thinking goes back at least as far as the 1950's fallout shelter fad, through the Clinton-era militias, Y2K survivalists, and now the Preppers. Earlier than that it blends into the frontier Injun fighter mentality. We've always had them.
Go back farther and you find the persistent scare-mongering and collapse fantasy about slave rebellions. Which are eerily reminiscent of the Freeper fantasies about how "urban minority youth" will turn into a violent mindless mob that has to be shot down, should welfare ever end.
| 307 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:35:45am |
re: #288 Sol Berdinowitz
This is what the 24-hour rule is about...news agencies do not have one, they just repeat whatever scraps of information they pick up...
News agencies can't have 24-hour rule, or they'd risk getting scooped. Understand that on this point there's never been any 'golden period of media prudence' and in a free press society there never will be. For a news outlet, keeping up with important stories and breaking new aspects of them is is of crucial importance, it is something they cannot afford not to do.
| 308 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:36:19am |
re: #306 The Ghost of a Flea
Go back farther and you find the persistent scare-mongering and collapse fantasy about slave rebellions. Which are eerily reminiscent of the Freeper fantasies about how "urban minority youth" will turn into a violent mindless mob that has to be shot down, should welfare ever end.
Yeah--the Nat Turner Effect.
| 310 |
ReamWorks SKG Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:36:35am |
The slipperiness of the schoolteachers who split hairs by saying "We've never heard of a teacher named Ms. Lanza" is disturbing.
Lanza did work at the school, as the NY Times has been consistently reporting
This morning's updated report in the NY Times:
The lock system did not go into effect until 9:30 each morning, according to a letter to parents from the principal, Dawn Hochsprung, that was posted on several news Web sites. The letter was apparently written earlier in the school year.
It was Ms. Hochsprung, who recognized Mr. Lanza because his mother worked at the school, who let him in on Friday. Sometime later, she heard shots and went to see what was going on.
The fact is, a Sandy Hook employee supplied the weapons and the means for this massacre to happen. Expect taxpayers to pay out big settlements to the families of the victims once the judgements are determined.
| 311 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:36:46am |
Press conference now re-scheduled to start "within half an hour"...
Fox is also reporting that at least one additional firearm was found inside the school besides the two pistols we knew about.
| 312 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:37:55am |
re: #307 Dark_Falcon
News agencies can't have 24-hour rule, or they'd risk getting scooped. Understand that on this point there's never been any 'golden period of media prudence' and in a free press society there never will be. For a news outlet, keeping up with important stories and breaking new aspects of them is is of crucial importance, it is something they cannot afford not to do.
I'd subscribe to a service with the motto: "Always last, always right". Yesterday's news cycle was a disgrace.
| 313 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:40:04am |
re: #306 The Ghost of a Flea
Go back farther and you find the persistent scare-mongering and collapse fantasy about slave rebellions. Which are eerily reminiscent of the Freeper fantasies about how "urban minority youth" will turn into a violent mindless mob that has to be shot down, should welfare ever end.
True enough though the fear didn't take off for real until Nat Turner's Rebellion. Before that they believed the slaves were too downtrodden to fight back meaningfully. After that it became the normal mode of thinking throughout the deep south.
| 314 |
Dr Lizardo Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:41:54am |
re: #306 The Ghost of a Flea
Go back farther and you find the persistent scare-mongering and collapse fantasy about slave rebellions. Which are eerily reminiscent of the Freeper fantasies about how "urban minority youth" will turn into a violent mindless mob that has to be shot down, should welfare ever end.
You're quite right. Freeper fantasies regarding civilizational collapse are manifestations of the most delusional thinking. Also, don't forget their equally delusional "Red Dawn" fantasies and their fantasies regarding overthrowing the Federal government by violent force.
| 315 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:42:03am |
Fox back to video games again just now...because that is obviously how he became a crack shot with a gun, by shooting things on a screen with a game controller.
| 316 |
ReamWorks SKG Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:42:09am |
re: #292 Shiplord Kirel
I'm actually worried about a SHTF scenario, too. Which is why, for example, we have bulletproof doors in our Florida home (it's really an incremental step above hurricane rated doors). But my plan is to simply GTFO and not stay and fight. I don't own guns.
| 317 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:42:19am |
re: #306 The Ghost of a Flea
Go back farther and you find the persistent scare-mongering and collapse fantasy about slave rebellions. Which are eerily reminiscent of the Freeper fantasies about how "urban minority youth" will turn into a violent mindless mob that has to be shot down, should welfare ever end.
That's funny because you'd think that would make them fans of the welfare state. But they'd have to be closer to sane to understand that. Because saner people would know that having 'your guys' kill 'the others' in large numbers is something extremely undesirable, because it will change your people into something far worse and they'll be seen as worse by others. You can't simply indulge your killing fantasy and be done with it, even for psychopaths it doesn't work like that.
| 318 |
ReamWorks SKG Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:44:24am |
NY Times printed a correction!
Correction: December 15, 2012
An earlier version of this article suggested that the gunman in the Connecticut shooting used a rifle to carry out the shootings inside the Sandy Hook Elementary School. In fact, according to law enforcement, the guns used in the school shooting were both handguns.
| 320 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:44:58am |
re: #312 Decatur Deb
I'd subscribe to a service with the motto: "Always last, always right". Yesterday's news cycle was a disgrace.
You'd do that, but most people wouldn't especially not when they fear for the safety of their loved ones. Moreover, there are some times, such as during some types of disaster, when delaying till you can confirm things may get people killed.
| 321 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:45:08am |
re: #308 Decatur Deb
Yeah--the Nat Turner Effect.
Toussant L'Ouverture being the other boogey man.
I'm actually listening to a book called Bound for Canaan: The Underground Railroad. The actual rescue stories are amazing and uplifting, but the accounts of the arbitrary personal violence that led to individual slaves taking the huge risk of escape are hard slogging. And even worse are the accounts of coordinated group violence against free blacks and slaves both. For example, everyone knows how terrible Nat Turner was, but don't talk about the insane retaliatory violence...rape, murder, and burnings...that Southern whites committed in response. Which they also did after the uncovering of the plots by Gabriel Prosser and Denmark Vessy: even before Turner's Rebellion the slightly hint of a slave conspiracy was met with arbitrary executions, brutal violence, and sexual assault.
| 322 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:45:29am |
re: #317 Dark_Falcon
You can't simply indulge your killing fantasy and be done with it, even for psychopaths it doesn't work like that.
I'm reminded of the movie "The Searchers" as it's one of the few movies that has ever dealt with this problem in an adult manner.
| 323 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:47:16am |
re: #319 TedStriker
It's never surprising when stuff like this brings the nutjobs and sockpuppets out to play.
BTW, Jocko, get fucked.
Keep reading. He admitted he goofed and it appears from subsequent posts that 'Jocko' isn't a troll. He appears to have made an honest mistake.
Sometimes the trolls make us regular lizards somewhat trigger-happy.
| 324 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:47:23am |
re: #316 ReamWorks SKG
I'm actually worried about a SHTF scenario, too. Which is why, for example, we have bulletproof doors in our Florida home (it's really an incremental step above hurricane rated doors). But my plan is to simply GTFO and not stay and fight. I don't own guns.
It's rather unlikely that you have bulletproof walls in a normally-constructed home. My definition of SHTF would be the revival of white supremicist control of the local police and judiciary. Chances are less than 1:10000.
| 325 |
TedStriker Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:47:56am |
re: #294 watching you tiny alien kittens are
Fox conservative entertainment media is running with their set narrative...
It isn't about guns at all you see, it is about mentally ill people.
With access to guns.
Fox News, go back to spooning with LaPierre and the NRA...
| 326 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:49:17am |
re: #310 ReamWorks SKG
The slipperiness of the schoolteachers who split hairs by saying "We've never heard of a teacher named Ms. Lanza" is disturbing.
Lanza did work at the school, as the NY Times has been consistently reporting
This morning's updated report in the NY Times:
The fact is, a Sandy Hook employee supplied the weapons and the means for this massacre to happen. Expect taxpayers to pay out big settlements to the families of the victims once the judgements are determined.
Well...except that some are now reporting that he was not buzzed in at all but simply broke out the glass in a window next to the front doors...
If true* that will be a lawsuit liability, installing a video camera and electric lock on the door offers no protection unless you replace the glass with laminated impact resistant glass.
*(On the 911 tapes I have heard on the news the first officer on the scene reported the front entrance glass being broken out.)
| 327 |
ReamWorks SKG Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:49:54am |
re: #324 Decatur Deb
No, just doors. A little protection against an armed assailant trying to get in if I'm answering the door. And a massive steel door frame to prevent kick-ins.
From this company: [Link: www.nabulletproof.com...]
| 328 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:50:53am |
re: #321 The Ghost of a Flea
Toussant L'Ouverture being the other boogey man.
I'm actually listening to a book called Bound for Canaan: The Underground Railroad. The actual rescue stories are amazing and uplifting, but the accounts of the arbitrary personal violence that led to individual slaves taking the huge risk of escape are hard slogging. And even worse are the accounts of coordinated group violence against free blacks and slaves both. For example, everyone knows how terrible Nat Turner was, but don't talk about the insane retaliatory violence...rape, murder, and burnings...that Southern whites committed in response. Which they also did after the uncovering of the plots by Gabriel Prosser and Denmark Vessy: even before Turner's Rebellion the slightly hint of a slave conspiracy was met with arbitrary executions, brutal violence, and sexual assault.
Are you up on the other (earlier) Underground Railroad, the one that went to the Negro Fort/Fort Gadsden area in Spanish Florida? Went bad.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 329 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:51:55am |
Forget mental health and gun control! Let the militarization of elementary schools begin!
Wish I was kidding but I can see that as an answer by Muricans.
| 330 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:52:50am |
re: #315 watching you tiny alien kittens are
Fox back to video games again just now...because that is obviously how he became a crack shot with a gun, by shooting things on a screen with a game controller.
Who's their expert on this, Jack Thompson?
| 331 |
ReamWorks SKG Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:53:35am |
Ok! I need to get dressed for Shul! Happy Hanukkah everyone. (And don't tell G-d I was on the computer this AM)
| 332 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:55:48am |
re: #318 ReamWorks SKG
NY Times printed a correction!
The rifle was found in the car, he did not take it in.
I'm wondering what the other weapon Fox is saying was found inside the school was, if it even exists that is...
| 333 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:57:21am |
re: #329 Gus
Forget mental health and gun control! Let the militarization of elementary schools begin!
Wish I was kidding but I can see that as an answer by Muricans.
This "Israeli" approach is featured on one of the major gun nut sites today:
| 334 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:57:31am |
re: #319 TedStriker
It's never surprising when stuff like this brings the nutjobs and sockpuppets out to play.
Calm down, he was being sarcastic, and he apologized later. ;)
| 335 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:59:19am |
re: #316 ReamWorks SKG
I'm actually worried about a SHTF scenario, too. Which is why, for example, we have bulletproof doors in our Florida home (it's really an incremental step above hurricane rated doors). But my plan is to simply GTFO and not stay and fight. I don't own guns.
Every once in awhile I get freaked out about the SHTF scenario precisely because I'm surrounded by Christian nationalists and/or Neo-Confederates with guns. I have a giant Buddha in the yard and a house full of Hindu idols.
re: #328 Decatur Deb
Are you up on the other (earlier) Underground Railroad, the one that went to the Negro Fort/Fort Gadsden area in Spanish Florida? Went bad.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
It's mentioned in the book, which is structured such that it's trying to explain the larger complex patterns of slave escapes and individuals and allies that helped with escapes in different periods in US history. The introduction pretty much says outright: "everybody knows the Underground Railroad, here's the story of the much bigger phenomenon of which the Underground Railroad acts as a synedoche."
It's not a subject I can claim great familiarity with, though my childhood recollections of the story of Harriet Tubman have always had a powerful effect on my ethical understanding of prejudice and race. I'm maybe a third of the way through, and I'd really recommend it. The individual narratives are very moving, and also jab a stick in the eye of a lot of the common, lazy tropes that explain away US slavery as benign.
| 336 |
Dr Lizardo Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:59:25am |
re: #331 ReamWorks SKG
And Happy Hanukkah to you and yours. Shalom Aleichem.
| 337 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:59:58am |
re: #333 Decatur Deb
This "Israeli" approach is featured on one of the major gun nut sites today:
Yes. And you can see by her gun position that she's ready to defend her class at any second! //
| 338 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:00:30am |
re: #328 Decatur Deb
Are you up on the other (earlier) Underground Railroad, the one that went to the Negro Fort/Fort Gadsden area in Spanish Florida? Went bad.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
No kidding. Though given that the so called 'Negro Fort' was sited along a river, there was no way Andrew Jackson was going to just 'let it be'. A hostile fort choked off all commerce and settlement along a river, since no commercial traffic could pass it without permission. But even so, the fort's end via magazine explosion was horrible. Ammunition explosions are always a horror.
| 339 |
iossarian Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:00:30am |
re: #329 Gus
Forget mental health and gun control! Let the militarization of elementary schools begin!
Wish I was kidding but I can see that as an answer by Muricans.
It's not so long ago that people on here were suggesting that I arm myself at work to protect myself (during the debate on allowing guns into higher ed institutions).
| 340 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:01:47am |
re: #339 iossarian
It's not so long ago that people on here were suggesting that I arm myself at work to protect myself (during the debate on allowing guns into higher ed institutions).
I should probably bring a gun every time I go out to have a cigarette on the front porch! //
| 341 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:02:48am |
re: #333 Decatur Deb
This "Israeli" approach is featured on one of the major gun nut sites today:
Which they'll love right up until they see the Israel laws about gun ownership. Basically, unless you're either active or reservist military, police, or live in the settlements, you can't own a gun. Even if you can obtain a permit, it's one permit good for one gun, either a handgun or a rifle is you're active military, and the permit is matched to the gun. And part of the process of obtaining a permit is submitting to a mental health evaluation, which meas if they have any reason to believe you're not safe with a gun, you'll be denied.
| 342 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:02:48am |
At least 35 mass shooters in US showed signs of mental illness prior to killing: is.gd/LVt75A See our full investigation. #Newtown— Mark Follman (@markfollman) December 15, 2012
They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! //
| 343 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:03:28am |
re: #341 Targetpractice
Which they'll love right up until they see the Israel laws about gun ownership. Basically, unless you're either active or reservist military, police, or live in the settlements, you can't own a gun. Even if you can obtain a permit, it's one permit good for one gun, either a handgun or a rifle is you're active military, and the permit is matched to the gun. And part of the process of obtaining a permit is submitting to a mental health evaluation, which meas if they have any reason to believe you're not safe with a gun, you'll be denied.
That photo is probably from within a contested settlement too. You won't see that in Tel Aviv.
| 344 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:03:56am |
re: #337 Gus
Yes. And you can see by her gun position that she's ready to defend her class at any second! //
She is, but that's because she's required to. That's a field trip picture, where they're required to have armed teachers or guards for every so many children. Can you imagine the screams if you had school teachers here in the US going into public museums, visibly armed?
| 345 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:04:53am |
I always love the way some people squirm whenever you say some of these mass shooters are crazy. Americans are especially prone to the rejection of mental illness. They do this because they think if you call them crazy you can't convict them and then they don't get to live out the blood lust of the death penalty.
| 346 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:05:21am |
re: #338 Dark_Falcon
No kidding. Though given that the so called 'Negro Fort' was sited along a river, there was no way Andrew Jackson was going to just 'let it be'. A hostile fort choked off all commerce and settlement along a river, since no commercial traffic could pass it without permission. But even so, the fort's end via magazine explosion was horrible. Ammunition explosions are always a horror.
The British ex-slave recruiting into the Colonial Marines is very interesting. A recent article talked of about a dozen or so of George Washington's slaves taking advantage of a British general's Emancipation Proclamation. (Slate, I think.)
| 347 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:06:17am |
re: #344 Targetpractice
She is, but that's because she's required to. That's a field trip picture, where they're required to have armed teachers or guards for every so many children. Can you imagine the screams if you had school teachers here in the US going into public museums, visibly armed?
Yeah. Frankly, I don't give a crap what they do in Israel. Tired of these gentile rednecks bringing up Israel at every turn. They talk about Israel yet they've never met a Jew in their entire lives.
| 348 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:09:48am |
The NRA's answer is more gunz! IOW, America will thus engage in its own arm race. Pathetic.
| 349 |
researchok Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:10:12am |
There are 300 million plus guns out there.
The guns used in the shooting were legally purchased and were not 'carried around'. It took a bad/sick guy 5 minutes to turn those legally purchased weapons into instruments of horror.
Unless you take away all those guns how can you prevent this kind of thing from happening again?
| 350 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:10:21am |
re: #347 Gus
Yeah. Frankly, I don't give a crap what they do in Israel. Tired of these gentile rednecks bringing up Israel at every turn. They talk about Israel yet they've never met a Jew in their entire lives.
I sort of hated watching 19-yr old girls in blue jeans drop their M16s in Ramat Gan mall. Makes a very disconcerting rattle when they hit the terrazzo.
| 351 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:10:29am |
You know what else they have in Israel?
Single payer health care.
| 352 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:12:14am |
So if we can't talk about 'knee jerk' gun restrictions in the aftermath of tragedy, and we have these every couple of weeks, when can we talk about them?
re: #349 researchok
Unless you take away all those guns how can you prevent this kind of thing from happening again?
Correct.
| 353 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:12:21am |
re: #347 Gus
Yeah. Frankly, I don't give a crap what they do in Israel. Tired of these gentile rednecks bringing up Israel at every turn. They talk about Israel yet they've never met a Jew in their entire lives.
They look at Israel because they like the superficial appearance, not the structure underneath it. For example, although Israelis don't have a hang-up about carrying weapons openly or making a distinction about semi and fully auto weapons, they also don't view gun ownership as a right. Guns are not seen as penis extensions, they're seen as tools, whose usage should be limited to those who are trained and trusted to wield them for the defense of everyone else. To them, the idea of owning a hand cannon just to have something to show off to friends is not just pointless, it's dangerous.
It's a bit like why they also like the Swiss approach to reservists being allowed to keep their rifles for the 30 years they're on reserve, ignoring the reality that the rifles are supposed to kept under lock and key except for maintenance. That reservists are issued a limited number of rounds for defending themselves while they go between their homes and military installations. The rounds are to be kept sealed and are inspected regularly by military officials. You want to train, you can go to the practice course, but they keep watch on what you check out and make sure you're not sneaking out unspent rounds. Likewise, at the end of your service, you're allowed to keep the rifle, but it has to be sent back to the factory to have the full-auto capability removed.
| 354 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:12:31am |
re: #350 Decatur Deb
I sort of hated watching 19-yr old girls in blue jeans drop their M16s in Ramat Gan mall. Makes a very disconcerting rattle when they hit the terrazzo.
Prepare for the militarization of America grade schools any second now. That's America's answer to everything.
| 355 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:13:41am |
re: #349 researchok
There are 300 million plus guns out there.
The guns used in the shooting were legally purchased and were not 'carried around'. It took a bad/sicjk guy 5 minutes to turn those legally purchased weapons into instruments of horror.
Unless you take away all those guns how can you prevent this kind of thing from happening again?
You can't and those guns aren't going away. We might cut down on the number of school shootings, but they are going to keep happening at times. The social realities of America guarantee it.
| 357 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:15:03am |
Press conference starting now...
| 358 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:15:10am |
re: #354 Gus
Prepare for the militarization of America grade schools any second now. That's America's answer to everything.
Much too late, in my case:
| 359 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:15:33am |
re: #356 researchok
I wish that were a joke.
A SWAT team for every school! Just to prevent the 1/100,000,000 chance. We can model this after the TSA. Think of it as another Post Office like security administration run by the federal government. It can be like jobs. Green jobs. //
| 360 |
researchok Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:15:34am |
re: #355 Dark_Falcon
I know it's unpopular to say it but the gun/violence culture here is a big, big part of the problem.
And Gus is right- we'll respond by armed school guards.
| 361 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:15:58am |
re: #345 Gus
I always love the way some people squirm whenever you say some of these mass shooters are crazy. Americans are especially prone to the rejection of mental illness. They do this because they think if you call them crazy you can't convict them and then they don't get to live out the blood lust of the death penalty.
I would quibble because crazy is a meaningless term that has more to do with the stigma of mental illness than actual diagnosis, and because lots of "crazy" folks are no threat to anyone...but I agree with you about the bloodlust and finding excuses for the death penalty part.
I don't think it's as simple as "mass shooters have a mental illness": neither mood spectrum disorders, nor even delusional disorders alone, explain the phenomenon, though they may have a compounding or force multiplying effect. My personal suspicion is that it's a matter of low empathy...which is not really a mental illness...paired with disinhibition. Mental illness is one possible source of disinhibition, but a persistent personality disorder (what used to be classified in DSM-IV as an Axis 2 disorder) or even chronic stress could have the same effect.
| 362 |
researchok Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:16:10am |
| 364 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:18:16am |
re: #363 Gus
Where are you here?
That's a class or two below me. The nuns are mine, not those priests.
| 365 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:18:16am |
re: #354 Gus
Prepare for the militarization of America grade schools any second now. That's America's answer to everything.
Samsung makes an armed guard robot, only $200K each plus control room costs. It would be irresponsible not to have lethal robots with automatic tracking capability at every school.
| 366 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:18:32am |
re: #360 researchok
I know it's unpopular to say it but the gun/violence culture here is a big, big part of the problem.
And Gus is right- we'll respond by armed school guards.
That really is a major part of it. All the cultures the gun cultists look at and idealize have nothing approaching the gun culture we maintain here in the states. Most view guns as evil, even if a necessary one, and don't feel that the average citizen has a right to one. The majority require you to show a real, verifiable need for a gun just to be considered for a permit, no such thing as "shall-issue." If you aren't an avid hunter or see danger regularly in the line of duty, then you aren't viewed as needing a gun.
| 367 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:19:22am |
re: #365 goddamnedfrank
Samsung makes an armed guard robot, only $200K each plus control room costs. It would be irresponsible not to have lethal robots with automatic tracking capability at every school.
Sounds good. We should also have a Predator drone at every school, Patriot missile batteries, and an Iron Dome.
| 368 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:19:48am |
re: #354 Gus
Prepare for the militarization of America grade schools any second now. That's America's answer to everything.
Militarization?
No, no. This is clearly a situation where the government should subcontract to private security forces. Private industries are always more efficient, so the federal government should just get out its checkbook (again).
| 369 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:20:37am |
re: #368 The Ghost of a Flea
Militarization?
No, no. This is clearly a situation where the government should subcontract to private security forces. Private industries are always more efficient, so the federal government should just get out its checkbook (again).
It will be only be used to defend the students. //
| 370 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:21:11am |
Should probably have a water boarding station at every school too.
| 371 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:21:35am |
re: #369 Gus
It will be only be used to defend the students. //
Corrections Corporation of America would be thrilled to help US schools with their security issues.
| 372 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:21:37am |
They just confirmed that he broke the glass to enter the school, the shooter was not let in voluntarily.
| 373 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:22:32am |
re: #371 The Ghost of a Flea
Corrections Corporation of America would be thrilled to help US schools with their security issues.
It would simplify the school to prison pipeline nationwide. Think of the profits. //
| 374 |
researchok Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:22:51am |
Companies spend millions of dollars on advertising to influence your purchasing behavior, year in and year out.
This is done by way of 30 second to one minute TV ads or print ads or radio ads.
Obviously, it works or the companies would not keep on spending those big dollars.
Think of amount of time kids spend on watching/interacting with gratuitous violence.
Is that interaction the only reason for violence? Of course not.
However when a group of people share that 'culture', there will inevitably be some unintended consequences.
The impact of the group dynamic cannot be understated on an individuals' behavior.
| 375 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:22:59am |
re: #365 goddamnedfrank
Samsung makes an armed guard robot, only $200K each plus control room costs. It would be irresponsible not to have lethal robots with automatic tracking capability at every school.
There are plenty of American companies that make robots that can be armed. You want US school districts to buy robots from Samsung instead of robots from Real Americans?! Do you just hate America, or are the Koreans paying to sell us out?!
| 376 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:23:08am |
re: #370 Gus
Should probably have a water boarding station at every school too.
Seems a little drastic just to find out who took the milk money...
| 377 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:24:03am |
| 378 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:24:03am |
re: #228 dragonath
IBM supercomputer used to simulate a typical human brain
Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, doesn't it?
Did they ask the IT Igor whose brain it was simulating?
| 379 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:26:26am |
re: #360 researchok
I know it's unpopular to say it but the gun/violence culture here is a big, big part of the problem.
And Gus is right- we'll respond by armed school guards.
Already have in a lot of places, all schools in my county have a police officer present during school hours, the large high schools have more than one. Been that way for years now already.
| 380 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:27:17am |
re: #322 William Barnett-Lewis
I'm reminded of the movie "The Searchers" as it's one of the few movies that has ever dealt with this problem in an adult manner.
My favorite movie of all time.
That'll be the day.
| 381 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:28:09am |
re: #379 watching you tiny alien kittens are
Already have in a lot of places, all schools in my county have a police officer present during school hours, the large high schools have more than one. Been that way for years now already.
Same here - both in Madison & up here in podunk Hayward.
| 382 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:28:24am |
re: #258 watching you tiny alien kittens are
Oh, and autism causing "delusional thinking," kids with autism should all be on involuntary medication!
Ah, so this should combine shortly with the anti-vaxers and gov't conspiracy nuts into "The government is using vaccines to convert our children into killers!"
:P
///
Gah. My brain feels dirty just thinking about these combinations.
| 383 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:28:31am |
re: #367 Gus
Sounds good. We should also have a Predator drone at every school, Patriot missile batteries, and an Iron Dome.
No, we have smaller drones than Predator better suited for short term deployment. And I think Stingers are plenty enough for a school. Patriot takes up too much room.
///
| 384 |
researchok Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:28:40am |
re: #379 watching you tiny alien kittens are
I was aware of that in some high schools- is it really the same in primary schools?
| 385 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:28:44am |
Christopher Hitchens died a year ago today. I still think of him every day.— Salman Rushdie (@SalmanRushdie) December 15, 2012
| 386 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:30:17am |
nbcnews.to/MD9whY reporting that 4 handguns were found in school, not 2 as previously reported. nbcnews.to/U2mcYD— Jim Roberts (@nytjim) December 15, 2012
| 387 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:30:40am |
So the teachers won't be unionized but the security guards will?
| 388 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:31:34am |
re: #387 Sol Berdinowitz
So the teachers won't be unionized but the security guards will?
I find the idea of having security guards at EVERY grade school across the country because of this to be rather absurd. Maybe I'm weird.
| 389 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:32:59am |
re: #388 Gus
I find the idea of having security guards at EVERY grade school across the country because of this to be rather absurd. Maybe I'm weird.
69,000 elementary schools. JOBS!!1!
| 390 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:33:10am |
I assume the guards will also have pepper spray at their disposal...
| 391 |
researchok Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:33:15am |
| 392 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:33:22am |
re: #382 Feline Fearless Leader
Ah, so this should combine shortly with the anti-vaxers and gov't conspiracy nuts into "The government is using vaccines to convert our children into killers!"
:P
///Gah. My brain feels dirty just thinking about these combinations.
The problem is that loons like Mike Adams will say just that. Not right away, since they know if they did they'd get pounded on the net, but in a month or two. They'll say that based on "overlooked witness testimony" they have some "concerns about the standard government account of the shooting." From there, it will morph into the government "covering up the harmful effects of vaccines."
[headdesk]
| 394 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:35:34am |
re: #390 Sol Berdinowitz
I assume the guards will also have pepper spray at their disposal...
Have to be. You never know when some student's parents will get involved with some left-wing protest. When that happens, security has to be ready to pepper spray the student before they try to convert others to Socialism.
///
| 395 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:35:48am |
re: #389 Decatur Deb
69,000 elementary schools. JOBS!!1!
I'm seeing 88,982 grade schools. So at 35,000/salary X2 for benefits/health/retirement or 70,000 X 88,982 = $6,228,740,000/year. Factor in a government waste factor of 2 and you have $12,457,480,000/year. :O
| 396 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:36:21am |
They can also double as drug enforcement agents. Ain't that America.
| 397 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:37:18am |
re: #384 researchok
I was aware of that in some high schools- is it really the same in primary schools?
Yes, and they drive marked cars too, I guess they figure it increases the deterrence value to have one or more marked police cars parked near the schools main entrance.
| 398 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:37:26am |
re: #395 Gus
I'm seeing 88,982 grade schools. So at 35,000/salary X2 for benefits/health/retirement or 70,000 X 88,982 = $6,228,740,000/year. Factor in a government waste factor of 2 and you have $12,457,480,000/year. :O
Make sure not to train them. It's funnier that way.
| 399 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:37:50am |
re: #395 Gus
I'm seeing 88,982 grade schools. So at 35,000/salary X2 for benefits/health/retirement or 70,000 X 88,982 = $6,228,740,000/year. Factor in a government waste factor of 2 and you have $12,457,480,000/year. :O
Don't forget the wrongful arrest/injury/death lawsuits that will inevitably occur when things go horribly wrong...
| 400 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:39:34am |
The War Back Home is a unique tool developed (in collaboration with the Uniformed Services University of The Health Sciences) to help military Service Members recognize and prevent the slippery slope that leads to prescription medication misuse (PMM) and the destructive outcomes that may follow. In this VEILS you have the choice to play as either a Marine Caption, struggling with the temptation to misuse prescription drugs: or as an Army Squad Leader in a position to intervene with a fellow Soldier who might be misusing.
| 401 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:39:53am |
re: #398 goddamnedfrank
Make sure not to train them. It's funnier that way.
We can call it the ESA. Elementary Security Administration. Oops. Forgot about that. We'll need a new federal administration to manage this. That would double my initial estimate from 12 billion to 24 billion. Plus, they'll need a new building through the GSA which could be another 500 million. Then they'll need their own website which would be around 30 million. //
| 402 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:40:14am |
Alabama schools sometimes ask parents to provide toilet paper and cleaning supplies. The country is not going to pay to control 3 million guns, a few million potential mental cases, and a few hundred thousand school perimeters. See you next atrocity.
(Remember, almost all kids got home last night.)
| 403 |
lawhawk Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:40:24am |
Well, much of what we know or suspected about the shooting yesterday has turned out to be wrong. From who the shooter was, how he gained entry, who were targets and where, and the amount and kinds of weapons involved have all changed in the last 24 hours.
Some things haven't changed though.
The gun lobby will fight tooth and nail to prevent any change to existing gun laws or improved registration/licensing/requalification for licenses or limitation on the kinds of weapons/ammo.
Something has to be done on that front, and there is significant support for those individual aspects. I'm not calling for a total ban on firearms. I do think that registration should be more comprehensive and require periodic testing for reregistration. That would potentially reduce the chances that someone who is mentally ill or becomes mentally ill after the initial registration could be prevented from having the license - and a mechanism provided for safely dealing with those individuals both from a mental health and gun safety perspective.
Gun safety and education should be mandatory parts of the gun licensing/registration process. Periodic updates should be required - think of it as CPE for gun owners.
| 405 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:41:50am |
re: #402 Decatur Deb
Alabama schools sometimes ask parents to provide toilet paper and cleaning supplies. The country is not going to pay to control 3 million guns, a few million potential mental cases, and a few hundred thousand school perimeters. See you next atrocity.
(Remember, almost all kids got home last night.)
Damn you! You're no fun. //
| 406 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:42:03am |
VIDEO GAMES!!!!!
While talking to Rudy Giuliani...
| 407 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:43:51am |
re: #360 researchok
I know it's unpopular to say it but the gun/violence culture here is a big, big part of the problem.
And Gus is right- we'll respond by armed school guards.
And try to pay them by cutting the salaries of those unionized thug teachers.
///
| 408 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:44:01am |
re: #401 Gus
We can call it the ESA. Elementary Security Administration. Oops. Forgot about that. We'll need a new federal administration to manage this. That would double my initial estimate from 12 billion to 24 billion. Plus, they'll need a new building through the GSA which could be another 500 million. Then they'll need their own website which would be around 30 million. //
Now that's a proper conservative satire: Not hating the government, but wary of over-expansion and bloat, and fulling knowing that big new mandates are sure to bring the pigs to the trough. Conservatives need to get back to that attitude, then maybe we won't need a liberal to write conservative satire.
| 409 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:44:26am |
re: #395 Gus
I'm seeing 88,982 grade schools. So at 35,000/salary X2 for benefits/health/retirement or 70,000 X 88,982 = $6,228,740,000/year. Factor in a government waste factor of 2 and you have $12,457,480,000/year. :O
Car, equipment, training, substitution officers for sick days and holiday time, etc, etc...
I'm sure we can boost that up to an even $20 billion for a no bid Halliburton contract offer.
| 410 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:45:03am |
re: #409 watching you tiny alien kittens are
Car, equipment, training, substitution officers for sick days and holiday time, etc, etc...
I'm sure we can boost that up to an even $20 billion for a no bid Halliburton contract offer.
Oops. Forgot to factor in laundry at $99/load. //
| 411 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:45:47am |
re: #406 watching you tiny alien kittens are
VIDEO GAMES!!!!!
While talking to Rudy Giuliani...
Kindly go fuck yourself, Rudy. That's coming from a "violent video games" player who hasn't felt the need to go on a murderous rampage in over 2 decades of playing them.
| 412 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:46:19am |
re: #410 Gus
Oops. Forgot to factor in laundry at $99/load. //
88,982 guards X $99/weekly laundry X 52 = $458,079,336/year for laundry.
| 414 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:48:32am |
re: #392 Dark_Falcon
The problem is that loons like Mike Adams will say just that. Not right away, since they know if they did they'd get pounded on the net, but in a month or two. They'll say that based on "overlooked witness testimony" they have some "concerns about the standard government account of the shooting." From there, it will morph into the government "covering up the harmful effects of vaccines."
[headdesk]
Your already late, go read the comments at the Daily Mail article on the shooter, been there done that already.
| 415 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:48:35am |
re: #412 Gus
88,982 guards X $99/weekly laundry X 52 = $458,079,336/year for laundry.
And those uniforms are a Sched A deduction. Less taxes.
| 416 |
Mattand Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:49:22am |
re: #411 Targetpractice
Kindly go fuck yourself, Rudy. That's coming from a "violent video games" player who hasn't felt the need to go on a murderous rampage in over 2 decades of playing them.
QFT. If anything, blowing away a few zombies or Heavy/Medic combos is a good stress release, at least for me. And no one gets hurt.
| 417 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:53:14am |
re: #416 Mattand
QFT. If anything, blowing away a few zombies or Heavy/Medic combos is a good stress release, at least for me. And no one gets hurt.
Agreed. In fact, after the last couple days, I'm considering just burying myself in Fallout: New Vegas for the rest of the day, in the hopes of taking my mind off everything I've seen. Or maybe some Skyrim, since for whatever reason, I couldn't stop thinking of it as I watched The Hobbit the other night.
| 418 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:02:01am |
re: #411 Targetpractice
Kindly go fuck yourself, Rudy. That's coming from a "violent video games" player who hasn't felt the need to go on a murderous rampage in over 2 decades of playing them.
The way I play Civ 5 is a clear indication I'm a ticking time bomb of genocide and world domination aspirations. If I ever aspire to political office, one of you is going to have to been Christropher Walken to my Martin Sheen, you dig?
| 419 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:02:16am |
re: #417 Targetpractice
Hey, have you ever played Pyschonauts? If not, go to steam and grab it. It is wonderful and the most escapist game I've ever played.
| 420 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:02:53am |
The Heroes of Sandy Hook Elementary stateofmind13.com/2012/12/15/the...— lloyd (@Art_Guy1) December 15, 2012
Bring some Kleenex.
| 421 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:03:46am |
Sources saying that Lanza got into the school by blasting through the front doors firing as many as half dozen shots to gain entry.— Michael Skolnik (@MichaelSkolnik) December 15, 2012
| 422 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:03:48am |
re: #418 The Ghost of a Flea
The way I play Civ 5 is a clear indication I'm a ticking time bomb of genocide and world domination aspirations. If I ever aspire to political office, one of you is going to have to been Christropher Walken to my Martin Sheen, you dig?
I think I can get Gus to agree to be a Charlie Sheen, but that's about it.
///
| 423 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:04:30am |
re: #422 Dark_Falcon
I think I can get Gus to agree to be a Charlie Sheen, but that's about it.
///
I've been drinking far too much Tiger Blood™ of late.
//
| 424 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:05:25am |
re: #418 The Ghost of a Flea
The way I play Civ 5 is a clear indication I'm a ticking time bomb of genocide and world domination aspirations. If I ever aspire to political office, one of you is going to have to been Christropher Walken to my Martin Sheen, you dig?
I want their explanation of the players of the "My Little Pony Fortress: Friendship is Magma" mod of Dwarf Fortress.
| 425 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:06:29am |
re: #422 Dark_Falcon
I think I can get Gus to agree to be a Charlie Sheen, but that's about it.
///
Hmm, doesn't the Christopher Walken part require something akin to a very severe waterboarding?
| 426 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:06:40am |
Morning Lizardim. So I finally had a Facebook friend - a rabid right-winger who was recently discharged from the Army - post the "We need more guns, not less" retarded right wing meme this morning. I just couldn't take it and totally went off. This whole ... THING ... is too much of a tragedy for us to be playing stupid gun-nut politics with it. Let's do something useful instead, like easier/cheaper assistance for mental and psychological disorders.
| 427 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:07:10am |
re: #424 Feline Fearless Leader
I want their explanation of the players of the "My Little Pony Fortress: Friendship is Magma" mod of Dwarf Fortress.
Either the players are bronies, or they just have a serious liking for weird shit.
| 428 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:11:06am |
| 429 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:12:47am |
Religious leaders respond to yesterday's violence...
...but gay marriage...
| 430 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:13:03am |
re: #427 Dark_Falcon
Either the players are bronies, or they just have a serious liking for weird shit.
It's probably a combination of both, along with some mental creativity in designing the code (main raw data) modifications to add in things of various complexity.
| 431 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:17:09am |
I think today will be a good day to work on my Basic Fantasy/Epic 6 Wales 1190AD campaign. Pseudo-historical fantasy is good on a day like today.
| 432 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:18:27am |
re: #429 Gus
Religious leaders respond to yesterday's violence...
...but gay marriage...
Gay marriages causes weather disasters; Dissing God causes massacres. The streams don't cross.
It is known.
| 433 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:18:59am |
re: #429 Gus
Religious leaders respond to yesterday's violence...
...but gay marriage...
interesting typo!!!
//
| 434 |
Mattand Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:19:02am |
re: #417 Targetpractice
Agreed. In fact, after the last couple days, I'm considering just burying myself in Fallout: New Vegas for the rest of the day, in the hopes of taking my mind off everything I've seen. Or maybe some Skyrim, since for whatever reason, I couldn't stop thinking of it as I watched The Hobbit the other night.
Feel like I should be more upset that I already am. I haven't broken down in tears, but just the sheer magnitude of the whole situation is just crushing.
I went to meet some former co-workers for lunch yesterday. As I was leaving, I saw a quick blip about a school shooting in CT. Literally, no info at the time, but I kinda thought that maybe it was the press going into "it bleeds, it leads" mode. Not a huge deal.
After lunch, I was helping my former boss buy an iPhone. She called her husband to test out the phone. She suddenly gasped and grasped my arm. Hanging up, she was in tears. That's when I found out the extent of the incident.
There's been so many things I've been mulling over in the last 24 hours:
-Those poor kids, going off to school and not knowing they were seeing their families for the last time.
-The indescribable grief their parents are experiencing, that will never truly go away.
- The fuck-knockers who think that arming teachers and adding more guns to our society is the issue.
- The religious fanatics who are using this tragedy to promote their twisted religious views.
- Why are we, as a nation, not admitting that the 2nd Amendment is, as written, an archaic death pact.
I could go on, but you get the picture. I have to sort of temper how I approach all of this, as I don't have kids. It hasn't come up yet, but eventually someone is going to throw the whole "You're not a parent, therefore your anger/opinions are less valid" horseshit in my face at some point.
There are kids in my life, whom I love even though they're not mine. Not the same as being a parent, but the heartache and horror of the situation isn't lost on me.
I guess that's the dichotomy of our species. We are capable of so much greatness and so much misery.
| 435 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:19:27am |
| 436 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:20:43am |
re: #426 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too
Morning Lizardim. So I finally had a Facebook friend - a rabid right-winger who was recently discharged from the Army - post the "We need more guns, not less" retarded right wing meme this morning. I just couldn't take it and totally went off. This whole ... THING ... is too much of a tragedy for us to be playing stupid gun-nut politics with it. Let's do something useful instead, like easier/cheaper assistance for mental and psychological disorders.
FFFFUUUUUU.....
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 438 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:25:05am |
re: #429 Gus
Religious leaders respond to yesterday's violence...
...but gay marriage...
Had to resist a reply comment in extremely bad taste, it's too damn soon yet. :(
| 439 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:25:15am |
Idiotic RWNJ! :According to Victoria Jackson 20 kids murdered in a school shooting is just like abortion politicususa.com/killing-childr... #topprog— Lije (@ThisisntEasy) December 15, 2012
| 440 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:26:40am |
re: #438 watching you tiny alien kittens are
Had to resist a reply comment in extremely bad taste, it's too damn soon yet. :(
Perk of my age
no filter!!!
/
| 441 |
lawhawk Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:26:47am |
re: #439 Gus
Saw a few twitters yesterday commenting about 50 million babies murdered after Roe. So yes, they were going there even as the horrors at the school were unfolding.
| 442 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:29:00am |
re: #441 lawhawk
Saw a few twitters yesterday commenting about 50 million babies murdered after Roe. So yes, they were going there even as the horrors at the school were unfolding.
Yeah. "Too soon to talk about gun control" but let's talk about God not being in the classroom and compare this to abortion.
| 443 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:29:41am |
We thank the international community for their condolences during this tragic time.— StateDept (@StateDept) December 15, 2012
| 444 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:30:52am |
I've always thought the concept of gun-free zones incomplete without ways to enforce it (screening machines, pat downs upon entrance-whatever. The little bit of research I did yesterday shows it wouldn't matter in school shootings. The criminals are specifically going to those locations, not because they are gun-free zones, but because they have a vendetta specifically towards the school or persons in the school.
It has nothing to do with some vague idea of want to "kill lots of people", they seem to want to kill specific people in a specific place. It has nothing to do with the fact that there will be little resistance because they will be in a gun-free zone.
| 445 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:31:06am |
re: #436 Renaissance_Man
FFFFUUUUUU.....
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
I think we can both agree that we need to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable and psychologically unfit. I just don't want to go too far in the direction of removing guns from people who are qualified to operate them.
| 446 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:31:25am |
Saw this on another forum and I think it's worth quoting:
Let me share one piece of wisdom, passed on to me by Sarah Eden, whose nine-year-old said these words to her today: "When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
| 447 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:31:33am |
| 448 |
darthstar Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:31:36am |
Mornin' everyone. I'm finding the internets to be a very depressing place today.
| 449 |
Political Atheist Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:32:10am |
Woke up this morning with something I just have to do. In a few days I have my monthly board meeting at a very successful public shooting range. There will be a detailed proposal in my hands, asking our big range to make significant donation to the victims fund. I trust there will be something like that set up soon. I can only hope the gesture will be welcome. I may need to propose it an as anonymous donation.
Would it anger or upset people for a shooting range business to try to help? So much heartache rightly swirls all around this tragedy.
| 450 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:32:57am |
re: #423 Gus
I've been drinking far too much Tiger Blood™ of late.
//
Going all the way to Singapore for that?
| 451 |
Sionainn Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:34:32am |
re: #449 Political Atheist
Woke up this morning with something I just have to do. In a few days I have my monthly board meeting at a very successful public shooting range. There will be a detailed proposal in my hands, asking our big range to make significant donation to the victims fund. I trust there will be something like that set up soon. I can only hope the gesture will be welcome. I may need to propose it an as anonymous donation.
Would it anger or upset people for a shooting range business to try to help? So much heartache rightly swirls all around this tragedy.
Anonymous donation...
It's a nice thing to do.
| 452 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:35:13am |
re: #449 Political Atheist
Would it anger or upset people for a shooting range business to try to help
Not at all
We always hear about the "responsible gun owners" and I (among them) and friends I have spoken with are as saddened about this as anyone else
| 453 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:36:51am |
Somehow, I think the War On Christmas General Bill O'Reilley would still find a way to be indignant about this:
Bored with "Holidays" as a euphemism for Christmas. Atheists & Christians happily say "Today's the start of Ramadan". Why not "Christmas"?— Richard Dawkins (@RichardDawkins) December 15, 2012
| 454 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:37:29am |
re: #453 Our Precious Bodily Fluids
Somehow, I think the War On Christmas General Bill O'Reilley would still find a way to be indignant about this:
[Embedded content]
Becomes it comes but one day a year?
| 455 |
darthstar Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:38:14am |
re: #452 sattv4u2
Nobody's ever accused you of being responsible.
//
| 456 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:38:29am |
re: #449 Political Atheist
Woke up this morning with something I just have to do. In a few days I have my monthly board meeting at a very successful public shooting range. There will be a detailed proposal in my hands, asking our big range to make significant donation to the victims fund. I trust there will be something like that set up soon. I can only hope the gesture will be welcome. I may need to propose it an as anonymous donation.
Would it anger or upset people for a shooting range business to try to help? So much heartache rightly swirls all around this tragedy.
hmmm, I think it would be a bad idea. What would work is a real effort to take part in Real Change. I think it would be viewed as "just throwing money at it". Those involved would probably rather see some REAL action on the side of the grass roots 'gun nuts" to reel in the whackos and manufacturers.
That would mean more than one meeting of your organization and lots of arguing and soul searching.
Perhaps a pledge signed by the members would work accompanied by the cash donation?
| 457 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:38:56am |
re: #453 Our Precious Bodily Fluids
Somehow, I think the War On Christmas General Bill O'Reilley would still find a way to be indignant about this:
[Embedded content]
Christmas!
[Faints]
| 458 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:39:11am |
Solution to school violence is to get God and guns back into schools, in that order.— Bryan Fischer (@BryanJFischer) December 15, 2012
| 460 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:39:42am |
re: #458 Gus
[Embedded content]
I don't want his God back in schools. I don't want his God anywhere at all. It certainly isn't my God.
| 461 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:39:50am |
re: #449 Political Atheist
Would it anger or upset people for a shooting range business to try to help? So much heartache rightly swirls all around this tragedy.
I believe that some people would see it in a negative light, as a cynical attempt to "whitewash" the responsibility of the gun culture rather than as a heartfelt gesture to victims.
If it is meant as a purely helpful gesture then it doesn't need a name attached to it anyway.
| 462 |
BongCrodny Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:40:21am |
| 463 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:41:10am |
| 464 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:41:15am |
re: #458 Gus
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
...and guts. Don't forget guts, one of the three things that made America great!!!
| 465 |
darthstar Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:41:19am |
re: #454 Targetpractice
Becomes it comes but one day a year?
Chanukah - 8 days
Christmas - 12 days (there's even a song about it, so there!)
Ramadan - 30 days
| 466 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:41:27am |
re: #462 BongCrodny
Bryan Fischer: The Mount Vesuvius of derp.
@bryanjfischer Derp.— Gus (@Gus_802) December 15, 2012
| 467 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:42:00am |
| 468 |
Sionainn Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:42:26am |
| 469 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:42:29am |
Why do citizens need semi-automatic firearms (firearms or pistols? Would a common-sense approach be to say "if you want such firearms, join the the National Guard"?
And then to Expand the National Guard to include older people and make true local militias?
| 470 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:42:32am |
re: #453 Our Precious Bodily Fluids
Somehow, I think the War On Christmas General Bill O'Reilley would still find a way to be indignant about this:
[Embedded content]
@richarddawkins Merry Christmas!— Gus (@Gus_802) December 15, 2012
| 471 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:42:57am |
re: #458 Gus
[Embedded content]
Yeah, screw that whole "separation of church & state" business, let's get back to prayer, putting up as much religious memorabilia as possible, and get to teachin' the kids about how a fictional deity created everything in a span of six days and that the world's genetic pool started with two humans.
That'll surely keep those gunmen away.
///
| 472 |
BongCrodny Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:43:43am |
| 473 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:44:02am |
re: #471 Targetpractice
Yeah, screw that whole "separation of church & state" business, let's get back to prayer, putting up as much religious memorabilia as possible, and get to teachin' the kids about how a fictional deity created everything in a span of six days and that the world's genetic pool started with two humans.
That'll surely keep those gunmen away.
///
Yeah. I'm trying to remember when "guns were in school."
| 474 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:44:14am |
re: #453 Our Precious Bodily Fluids
Somehow, I think the War On Christmas General Bill O'Reilley would still find a way to be indignant about this:
[Embedded content]
Of course, he mentioned the filthy pagan ritual of Ramadan in the same tweet with the holy celebration of Christmas!
Bonus drunken Pam...
Creeping Sharia!!1!!!
| 475 |
darthstar Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:44:23am |
re: #468 Sionainn
I wish that stupid fucker would shut up.
I wish that stupid fucker would get festering boils on his ass and a case of dysentery.
| 476 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:44:51am |
re: #469 Holidays are Family Fun Time
Why do citizens need semi-automatic firearms (firearms or pistols? Would a common-sense approach be to say "if you want such firearms, join the the National Guard"?
And then to Expand the National Guard to include older people and make true local militias?
I'm open to the Israeli idea of requiring a minimum 2 years military service just to be considered for a gun permit, but I'm sure that the gun cultists would blow a collective gasket over the idea that they'd have to serve a government they despise before they'd be allowed to own a gun.
| 477 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:45:54am |
Good Morning Lizards..
I read on the crawl on CNN this morning that 1 in 3 Americans think these are the end-times. Pisses me off. If 54 million people killed, the world on fire and 6 million Jews gassed 60 years ago during WW2 wasn't a sign of the end-times then what is? Whiny dis-spirited Americans whose only world view is naval gazing.
| 478 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:46:02am |
| 479 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:46:03am |
re: #475 darthstar
I wish that stupid fucker would get festering boils on his ass and a case of dysentery.
I would not go that far. I just feel better in the belief that someday, somewhere he will be called to answer for the hideous shit he has spread...
| 480 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:46:05am |
| 481 |
darthstar Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:46:09am |
Okay...time to walk the dogs before going skiing with the missus. Taking a day off patrol to be a good hubby.
| 482 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:47:14am |
re: #477 A Man for all Seasons
Good Morning Lizards..
I read on the crawl on CNN this morning that 1 in 3 Americans think these are the end-times. Pisses me off. If 54 million people killed, the world on fire and 6 million Jews gassed 60 years ago during WW2 wasn't a sign of the end-times then what is? Whiny dis-spirited Americans whose only world view is naval gazing.
Because back in WWII this sort of back-woods fundamentalist Christianity was limited to the backwoods folks. They have since come down out of the hills and taken over the dialogue...
| 483 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:48:00am |
Hmm. I need to get out. Too much procrastination, and I have (shudder) Christmas gift shopping to finish up.
Off to fight the barbarian hordes in King of Prussia...
| 484 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:48:41am |
re: #483 Feline Fearless Leader
Hmm. I need to get out. Too much procrastination, and I have (shudder)
ChristmasHOLIDAY gift shopping to finish up.Off to fight the barbarian hordes in King of Prussia...
ftfy
////
| 485 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:50:09am |
re: #459 Gus
Guns back in schools?
In Case Of Emergency Break Glass style boxes in the hallways with pre-loaded MP-10s preset to three round burst mode in them!
| 486 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:50:16am |
| 487 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:50:24am |
taco cat spelt backwards is taco cat. Carry on.— Grumpy Cat (@ExtraGrumpyCat) December 15, 2012
| 488 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:51:07am |
re: #485 watching you tiny alien kittens are
In Case Of Emergency Break Glass style boxes in the hallways with pre-loaded MP-10s preset to three round burst mode in them!
Ha! You must have been reading my mind. I was thinking about an "in case of emergency weapon" as an alternate.
| 489 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:51:07am |
re: #483 Feline Fearless Leader
Be careful. Holiday shoppers can be an irate bunch.
| 490 |
wrenchwench Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:52:56am |
| 491 |
BongCrodny Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:53:02am |
re: #487 Gus
taco cat spelt backwards is taco cat. Carry on.
Y'know, I always wondered what they put in those things.
| 492 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:54:01am |
re: #485 watching you tiny alien kittens are
In Case Of Emergency Break Glass style boxes in the hallways with pre-loaded MP-10s preset to three round burst mode in them!
Why not just go straight to a big contract with OCP to install ED-209s in all schools?
//
| 493 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:54:53am |
re: #491 BongCrodny
Y'know, I always wondered what they put in those things.
That moment when you find yourself wondering, "damn, this is the biggest chicken leg I've ever seen."
| 494 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:55:29am |
re: #473 Gus
Yeah. I'm trying to remember when "guns were in school."
Damned if I know. Talked to my old man and he can't ever remember guns being acceptable on school grounds except out in the rural areas, and that was rifles kept by kids who went hunting after school ended.
| 495 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:55:30am |
re: #492 Feline Fearless Leader
Why not just go straight to a big contract with OCP to install ED-209s in all schools?
//
| 496 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:56:07am |
re: #491 BongCrodny
You do not want to know. It gives a new definition to "mystery" meat.
| 497 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:56:41am |
re: #495 Gus
They can paint it pink and put "Hello Kitty" and flower decals on it to make it less threatening.
| 498 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:57:05am |
re: #492 Feline Fearless Leader
Why not just go straight to a big contract with OCP to install ED-209s in all schools?
//
"Freeze. You are in violation of District Code 1447, possession of a banned sugary food. Put down the food and step away. You have 10 seconds to comply."
| 499 |
SmithCommaJohn Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:57:24am |
Apparently they won't be happy until everybody is armed to the teeth and the entire country turns into one giant Battle Royale-style deathmatch.
| 500 |
Political Atheist Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:57:25am |
re: #456 Holidays are Family Fun Time
re: #456 Holidays are Family Fun Time
hmmm, I think it would be a bad idea. What would work is a real effort to take part in Real Change. I think it would be viewed as "just throwing money at it". Those involved would probably rather see some REAL action on the side of the grass roots 'gun nuts" to reel in the whackos and manufacturers.
That would mean more than one meeting of your organization and lots of arguing and soul searching.
Perhaps a pledge signed by the members would work accompanied by the cash donation?
Not sure what you mean by Real Change. Nor how much clout a single range can have. Quite a dilemma. Ranges like our are where safety and responsible use lives, grows, gets taught to any and all who attend. Whatever change is decided, shooting ranges and ancillary classes will have the job of educating people who have guns and shoot in it.
I'm going to propose this as an anonymous donation only. I'm calling the manager to make sure the flag is at half mast. What else can we do?
| 501 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:58:04am |
re: #494 Targetpractice
Damned if I know. Talked to my old man and he can't ever remember guns being acceptable on school grounds except out in the rural areas, and that was rifles kept by kids who went hunting after school ended.
High school I went to had a rifle range in the basement level. (And a rifle team at one point.) But it's not like you ever saw the rifles out and about in the hallways.
| 502 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:00:32am |
re: #501 Feline Fearless Leader
High school I went to had a rifle range in the basement level. (And a rifle team at one point.) But it's not like you ever saw the rifles out and about in the hallways.
Exactly. Guns were confined to specific areas, with ammunition kept locked away except when faculty was present. Kids weren't walking the halls armed and neither was the faculty.
| 503 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:00:55am |
For a start, responsible gun owners should ditch the NRA. Cancel your memberships and cut off financial donations.
The NRA is the epitome of irresponsible gun policies.
| 504 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:01:27am |
re: #500 Political Atheist
Really, it'd be far better if you did things as fathers and fellow concerned citizens, as individuals than as gun owners. It's the binding of up of gun ownership and identity that's freaking people out at the moment, somewhat.
Make the donation in all of your names if you want, rather than anonymously, but not "From X shooting range". That's just weird.
| 505 |
BongCrodny Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:07:07am |
re: #502 Targetpractice
Exactly. Guns were confined to specific areas, with ammunition kept locked away except when faculty was present. Kids weren't walking the halls armed and neither was the faculty.
Exactly.
If you're going to be responsible about firearms in school, by the time you get to the storage area, open the locks, load the guns, you're still looking at a slaughter.
If you're talking about arming teachers in individual classrooms, then I still think it's the psycho with his gun already drawn who's going to have the advantage over the teacher with the sidearm at his/her waist.
It's in no way a solution; it's only being offered in order to piss people off.
| 506 |
Political Atheist Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:07:17am |
re: #503 Varek Raith
Can we look a little closer at that?
It's really the ILA part we want to ditch from NRA/ILA. I switched to another advocacy firm long ago. But they are not all bad.
Critics of the NRA have no idea how much they do for gun safety. Education, classes, competition... I would say that stuff has to expand not be done away with. The core lesson for children that run across guns like at a friends house is "Stop. Don't Touch. Get An Adult." is their program. Nobody else has the certified instructors in carefully crafted curricula.
| 507 |
Political Atheist Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:09:47am |
re: #504 Obdicut
Really, it'd be far better if you did things as fathers and fellow concerned citizens than as gun owners. It's the binding of up of gun ownership and identity that's freaking people out at the moment, somewhat.
Agreed. Anonymous is the best way. Anything else will be misunderstood. Gun owners and sportsmen and women are just as shocked and hurt as gun critics. Just as shocked.
| 508 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:10:16am |
re: #506 Political Atheist
Can we look a little closer at that?
It's really the ILA part we want to ditch from NRA/ILA. I switched to another advocacy firm long ago. But they are not all bad.
Critics of the NRA have no idea how much they do for gun safety. Education, classes, competition... I would say that stuff has to expand not be done away with. The core lesson for children that run across guns like at a friends house is "Stop. Don't Touch. Get An Adult." is their program. Nobody else has the certified instructors in carefully crafted curricula.
With the NRA's crazy leadership, I frankly don't care. They are a problem.
Until members actively fight to get rid of NRA leadership, I will continue to see the NRA as a paranoid group.
| 509 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:10:21am |
A good year end round up from Poynter: The best (and worst) media errors and corrections of 2012
| 510 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:11:22am |
re: #506 Political Atheist
Can we look a little closer at that?
It's really the ILA part we want to ditch from NRA/ILA. I switched to another advocacy firm long ago. But they are not all bad.
Critics of the NRA have no idea how much they do for gun safety. Education, classes, competition... I would say that stuff has to expand not be done away with. The core lesson for children that run across guns like at a friends house is "Stop. Don't Touch. Get An Adult." is their program. Nobody else has the certified instructors in carefully crafted curricula.
You're not going to illicit any sympathy for the NRA by way of their gun safety programs. They are a John Birch like organization and their lunacy begins at the top with their leader, Wayne LaPierre to their board members like Ted Nugent.
| 511 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:13:06am |
re: #476 Targetpractice
I'm open to the Israeli idea of requiring a minimum 2 years military service just to be considered for a gun permit, but I'm sure that the gun cultists would blow a collective gasket over the idea that they'd have to serve a government they despise before they'd be allowed to own a gun.
Short of that, CMP or JROTC requirements, I don't see how we can expect everyone to be educated to use firearms. When the draft was in place, most young men learned, now they don't, but they still have access. It's a dangerous combination --young men, guns and ignorance.
There are courses available thru the NRA everywhere, but the non-white male demographic is unlikely to seek them out. I've felt the one's I've taken were excellent, so I know there are good civilian instructors out there.
Most of the gun nuts I know are very pro-military, it's the suburban soccer moms I know that aren't.
| 512 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:13:07am |
re: #510 Gus
You're not going to illicit any sympathy for the NRA by way of their gun safety programs. They are a John Birch like organization and their lunacy begins at the top with their leader, Wayne LaPierre to their board members like Ted Nugent.
They talk safety out of one side of their mouth while Ted gets up on stage with his assault gun and shouts "Suck on this, Obama!"
What sort of message does that put across to you?
| 513 |
Political Atheist Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:15:18am |
re: #505 BongCrodny
The whole idea is ludicrous. Professional security as appropriate is the only option. Guns are pretty common in stand alone jewelry stores. But in the shopping malls, not allowed or necessary, as the malls have pro guards and the police know the place well. Schools look like that sort of thing is the only rational option.
When it was decided to allow airline pilots to train and carry handguns, the FAA did that with the understanding the cockpit is locked up for the whole flight.
"More guns" only makes sense in more guards properly trained and sent. More security people where it makes sense. That's it.
| 514 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:16:30am |
re: #506 Political Atheist
Can we look a little closer at that?
It's really the ILA part we want to ditch from NRA/ILA. I switched to another advocacy firm long ago. But they are not all bad.
Critics of the NRA have no idea how much they do for gun safety. Education, classes, competition... I would say that stuff has to expand not be done away with. The core lesson for children that run across guns like at a friends house is "Stop. Don't Touch. Get An Adult." is their program. Nobody else has the certified instructors in carefully crafted curricula.
Don't forget the waterfowl habitat preservation efforts, from the pothole region to gulf marshlands, not only through outright purchase but through conservation easements that give the owners large property tax reductions.
Yes the NRA does some good things, but the management has mostly gone to shit over the last two decades.
| 515 |
Political Atheist Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:17:33am |
re: #510 Gus
I don't want to make sympathy for the NRA/ILA. All I want to do is keep the safety and hunter safety classes going. Not a thing more.
| 517 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:19:13am |
re: #512 Sol Berdinowitz
They talk safety out of one side of their mouth shile Ted stands on stage with his assault gun and shouts "Suck on this, Obama!"
What sort of message does that put across to you?
Gun safety training requirements are teh unconstitooshinul!
| 518 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:20:55am |
Here's a bozo over at PJ Media.
Mandatory Training for Gun Owners: Constitutional? Useful?
A solution in need of a problem: mandatory training is of questionable legality, and gun misuse is not generally due to a lack of skill or knowledge.
| 519 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:22:58am |
re: #514 watching you tiny alien kittens are
Disclaimer: I used to be a member because everyone in the Alaska business community are members, it was for "networking." Dinners, BBQs, Auctions for charity, all that fun stuff happened thru the NRA up there. This was before the management turned into wingnuts, but they were already starting to head in that direction.
What pissed me off was between the magazine, gifts, and the tons of bulky mail they sent me begging for more donations constantly I figure they were spending more than my dues just to try to get more money out of me.
| 520 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:24:55am |
Breaking: Hillary Clinton faints, suffers concussion tpm.ly/12rIcy1— Talking Points Memo (@TPM) December 15, 2012
| 521 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:25:44am |
| 522 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:25:44am |
#SecClinton dehydrated from stomach bug, fainted & sustained a concussion per StateDept's Philippe Reines. Recovering @ home— margaret brennan (@margbrennan) December 15, 2012
| 523 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:25:50am |
re: #520 Gus
[Embedded content]
God, hope she's alright. Heard she had to cancel some meetings the other day due to stomach issues.
| 524 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:26:01am |
re: #500 Political Atheist
re: #456 Holidays are Family Fun Time
Not sure what you mean by Real Change. Nor how much clout a single range can have. Quite a dilemma. Ranges like our are where safety and responsible use lives, grows, gets taught to any and all who attend. Whatever change is decided, shooting ranges and ancillary classes will have the job of educating people who have guns and shoot in it.
I'm going to propose this as an anonymous donation only. I'm calling the manager to make sure the flag is at half mast. What else can we do?
Well, I don't think the NRA is going to change or accept common sense regulation or whatever, unless it's members and member ranges start bitching at them or withholding donations. I think the gun community as individuals has to come together and decide what they will accept and not just follow the NRA. I think we will have to make a public differentiation between the organization and it's normal, non-high profile everyday members.
For example. I posted this on my fb today:
I am an NRA member, I do not believe Obama is going to take away everyone's guns. I also believe we can work together to enforce the laws already on the books, remove the stigma of mental illness, increase accessability to mental health treatment, and do what is necessary to keep this from happening again.
It's time to stop competing for rights and to start co-operating for what truly keeps us safe.
I think the Assault Weapons Ban is going to go thru again. And, althought I'll have to read the legislation, I hope it isn't as vague as it was last time. I'll probably be supporting it this time. Really, why do citizens need such a firearm? I'd support government sanctioned training requirement for ownership. Even Honorable Discharge from the military would work for me.
I think the gun nuts have to have a real dialogue about this sans NRA.
| 527 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:28:03am |
re: #525 PhillyPretzel
omg. I hope she is okay.
Sounds like it. She's been pushing it in her last days as SoS. Talk about a whirlwind tour.
| 528 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:29:08am |
re: #506 Political Atheist
Can we look a little closer at that?
It's really the ILA part we want to ditch from NRA/ILA. I switched to another advocacy firm long ago. But they are not all bad.
Critics of the NRA have no idea how much they do for gun safety. Education, classes, competition... I would say that stuff has to expand not be done away with. The core lesson for children that run across guns like at a friends house is "Stop. Don't Touch. Get An Adult." is their program. Nobody else has the certified instructors in carefully crafted curricula.
It's just a shame that they also inculcate a worldview in which one should safely use one's firearms against an array of hostile "others" that are acceptable targets. And undermine their safety advocacy by heaping contempt on anyone wary of guns being omnipresent while granting unconditional rights to firearms to dangerous people. I mean, the slippery slope argument is a fallacy from the get go, but it gets more ridiculous when you see conspiracy and overreach in the suggestion that maybe men with track records of domestic violence shouldn't be able to keep their guns while they're threatening their abused spouses/exs.
I would like to like the NRA, but they're getting nuttier and more open with this "we're geared up to fight the government, any day now" stuff. More and more they're dominated by the mythology of the noblility of vigilante-ism as opposed to the grim necessity of self-defense, which amounts to ensuring that they, the armed, are safe at the expense of everyone that might be perceived as a threat.
| 529 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:30:27am |
re: #528 The Ghost of a Flea
The NRA has slowly but surely convinced me I need to be wary of and untrusting of gun owners in general.
| 530 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:31:46am |
re: #515 Political Atheist
I don't want to make sympathy for the NRA/ILA. All I want to do is keep the safety and hunter safety classes going. Not a thing more.
I picked the word "sympathy" out of a hat so to speak.
| 531 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:31:52am |
re: #528 The Ghost of a Flea
It's just a shame that they also inculcate a worldview in which one should safely use one's firearms against an array of hostile "others" that are acceptable targets. And undermine their safety advocacy by heaping contempt on anyone wary of guns being omnipresent while granting unconditional rights to firearms to dangerous people. I mean, the slippery slope argument is a fallacy from the get go, but it gets more ridiculous when you see conspiracy and overreach in the suggestion that maybe men with track records of domestic violence shouldn't be able to keep their guns while they're threatening their abused spouses/exs.
I would like to like the NRA, but they're getting nuttier and more open with this "we're geared up to fight the government, any day now" stuff. More and more they're dominated by the mythology of the noblility of vigilante-ism as opposed to the grim necessity of self-defense, which amounts to ensuring that they, the armed, are safe at the expense of everyone that might be perceived as a threat.
Gone are the days of my Father, when the NRA was the "gentlemen's hunting organization". That demographic is gone, and the NRA hasn't changed with our culture.
I think that has been the biggest awakening for me. How men like my Father really were representatives of that old "English-type" landed gentry. Hell my Dad had WOOL trousers and suspenders! That world is gone.
| 532 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:36:23am |
High School student was arrested early Friday after police uncovered an alleged school-shooting massacre plot.tulsaworld.com/news/article.a...— Chernynkaya (@Chernynkaya) December 15, 2012
| 533 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:37:19am |
10 wounded in shootings since Friday afternoon dlvr.it/2f10Z1 #chicago— Chicago News Now (@chicagonewsnow) December 15, 2012
| 534 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:37:48am |
2 Dead In Shooting At Excalibur Hotel-Casino On #LasVegas Strip:cbsloc.al/UPNcWy— CBS Los Angeles (@CBSLA) December 15, 2012
| 535 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:38:19am |
Birmingham authoritiesare investigating a shooting inside an Alabama hospital. bit.ly/UQ2NFI— WLBT 3 On Your Side (@WLBT) December 15, 2012
| 536 |
bratwurst Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:38:45am |
| 537 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:39:10am |
re: #534 Gus
[Embedded content]
Geez, the last place I'd expect such a thing. I still think of Las Vegas Casinos as being Mob-ruled security tight. But, I guess that is only around the money.
| 538 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:40:22am |
One moron tries to blow up his explosive shoes and we all gotta take off our shoes at airports.
Multiple morons massacre hundreds of people and 'oh well, what can you do about it?'
WTF.
| 540 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:42:17am |
So the latest is that shooter didn't get buzzed in, he blasted his way in. So much for turning schools into fortresses.
| 541 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:42:19am |
re: #538 Varek Raith
One moron tries to blow up his explosive shoes and we all gotta take off our shoes at airports.
Multiple morons massacre hundreds of people and 'oh well, what can you do about it?'WTF.
Well, airports are a closed location, much easier to monitor and control that the whole country.
| 542 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:43:37am |
re: #540 Targetpractice
So the latest is that shooter didn't get buzzed in, he blasted his way in. So much for turning schools into fortresses.
I think the security is more for child predators and divorced non-custodial parents wanting to abduct their child. Well, and a feel good measure.
| 543 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:43:44am |
re: #540 Targetpractice
So the latest is that shooter didn't get buzzed in, he blasted his way in. So much for turning schools into fortresses.
Well. Then we need moats! //
| 544 |
Political Atheist Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:44:11am |
re: #530 Gus
I picked the word "sympathy" out of a hat so to speak.
I understand. The worst of the NRA has made it's best gun responsibility and safety efforts unwelcome, even among those who call for increased safety education, rules and requirements.
I know people who feel the same way about the ACLU for backing free speech by people & groups quite hateful.
| 545 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:44:11am |
re: #539 Gus
45 murders a day.
Yes. I know this isn't all gun crimes. Just saying. It's the overall climate of violence.
| 546 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:44:13am |
re: #541 Holidays are Family Fun Time
Well, airports are a closed location, much easier to monitor and control that the whole country.
There's also no Constitutional right to explosive shoes. It's problematic that so many people bring too much baggage and pet issues into the debate.
| 547 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:44:24am |
re: #537 Holidays are Family Fun Time
Geez, the last place I'd expect such a thing. I still think of Las Vegas Casinos as being Mob-ruled security tight.
From what I heard, it happened outside
Murder/ Suicide
Hard for "security" to stop something like that
| 548 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:45:20am |
Grrrrr....Fox has Tony Perkins on comparing the horrible trauma suffered by his organization at the hands of a deranged shooter to the school shooting.
"One of my minimum wage security guards was shot in the arm down in our lobby so I know just the kind the nightmare trauma and fear those kids were going through yesterday. As his employer I had to suffer with not knowing the extent of his injuries for perhaps five whole minutes. So I know exactly what those parents were going through as they waited at the fire station to find out if their children were alive or not."
Note: Not Verbatim, obviously.
*SPIT*
| 549 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:45:42am |
re: #542 Holidays are Family Fun Time
I think the security is more for child predators and divorced non-custodial parents wanting to abduct their child. Well, and a feel good measure.
I lost track of how many schools put up various security measures, from metal detectors and reinforced doors to drawing up emergency plans for evacuating the school in the aftermath of Columbine. Now after this, we're being told the measures aren't enough and we need to further reinforce these places and put armed faculty in the hallways.
We're turning schools into prisons, such that when they fail to keep the intruder out, they succeed in keeping more victims inside.
| 550 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:45:44am |
So we are back to massacres being the status quo in America.
Good to know.
| 551 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:46:35am |
My husband and son took the CMP training required for ownership of the M-1. Don't ask me the specifics. They both came home real excited about what they learned and the gun itself, but said they didn't need to own one. They declined when the paperwork got passed around.
| 552 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:46:36am |
re: #544 Political Atheist
There is no comparison between the NRA's promotion of paranoia and the ACLU's defense of unpopular speech. None. It is a terrible, terrible comparison to draw, especially in the current circumstances.
| 553 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:47:07am |
| 554 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:47:24am |
re: #544 Political Atheist
I understand. The worst of the NRA has made it's best gun responsibility and safety efforts unwelcome, even among those who call for increased safety education, rules and requirements.
I know people who feel the same way about the ACLU for backing free speech by people & groups quite hateful.
The NRA thinks the UN is coming to take our guns away.
They are paranoid.
| 555 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:48:29am |
The NRA thinks Obama is going to take our guns away.
Paranoid.
The NRA thinks more guns = less crime.
Delusional.
Why the hell should I take such a group seriously?
| 556 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:49:50am |
re: #555 Varek Raith
The NRA thinks Obama is going to take our guns away.
Paranoid.
The NRA thinks more guns = less crime.
Delusional.Why the hell should I take such a group seriously?
Because they have a paranoid membership who's donating a fuckload of money for them to fight any reasonable gun control laws in the name of "FREEEDDDOOMMM!!"
| 557 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:49:52am |
re: #546 Killgore Trout
There's also no Constitutional right to explosive shoes. It's problematic that so many people bring too much baggage and pet issues into the debate.
Are you and RWC of the opinion that any and all gun control is unconstitutional?
The NRA does.
| 558 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:49:55am |
You realize of course that the backlash from this isn't going to result in anything intelligent and effective. We're just going to have a new rash of 6 year olds getting tackled by the swat team for making a finger gun and yelling "bang", and introvert teenagers getting treated like potential war criminals over their comics and video games. Laws will be passed restricting cosmetic features of certain types of guns (maybe), and people will continue to believe that an absence of clinical mental illness (e.g. schizophrenia) will mean that external rather than internal causes must be assumed. We (over)react to danger with hysteria, which is why we have a gun culture in the first place.
| 559 |
efuseakay Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:49:55am |
re: #445 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too
I think we can both agree that we need to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable and psychologically unfit. I just don't want to go too far in the direction of removing guns from people who are qualified to operate them.
The problem is, just because someone is qualified, doesn't necessarily mean they should own a gun.
| 560 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:50:21am |
Insp Michael Brown
@MentalHealthCop
Interested in the natural venn diagram of policing, mental health and criminal justice. Winner of the 2012 Mark Hanson Digital Media Award from @MindCharity
Birmingham, UK · [Link: www.mentalhealthcop.wordpress.com...]
| 561 |
Skip Intro Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:50:31am |
re: #554 Varek Raith
The NRA thinks the UN is coming to take our guns away.
They are paranoid.
I think the NRA wants the morons to think that. It seems to be working.
The only thing the NRA really cares about is making sure the gun manufacturers who are its main reason for being increase sales year after year. The rest is just bullshit for the delta minuses.
| 562 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:50:34am |
re: #549 Targetpractice
I lost track of how many schools put up various security measures, from metal detectors and reinforced doors to drawing up emergency plans for evacuating the school in the aftermath of Columbine. Now after this, we're being told the measures aren't enough and we need to further reinforce these places and put armed faculty in the hallways.
We're turning schools into prisons, such that when they fail to keep the intruder out, they succeed in keeping more victims inside.
Well, we've witnessed how much such measures have worked on the War on Drugs. "People will only be policed as much as they want to be policed"?
Yet, it's a way for someone to make money and it's easier than actually having a program in place for people to look at themselves. This is why so many seem to want religion in schools. That is supposed to be what religion does-no? But that is also, in reality, just another way for people to make money.
| 563 |
jaunte Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:51:30am |
re: #555 Varek Raith
The NRA thinks Obama is going to take our guns away.
Paranoid.
The NRA thinks more guns = less crime.
Delusional.Why the hell should I take such a group seriously?
They're following the pattern of a significant minority of the country in disregarding evidence in favor of faith.
| 564 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:51:32am |
re: #552 Obdicut
There is no comparison between the NRA's promotion of paranoia and the ACLU's defense of unpopular speech. None. It is a terrible, terrible comparison to draw, especially in the current circumstances.
Yet people do draw it. "I can't do what I want? Look at that organizaton that I disagree with, they get to do it." = false logic.
| 565 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:52:40am |
re: #540 Targetpractice
So the latest is that shooter didn't get buzzed in, he blasted his way in. So much for turning schools into fortresses.
They put up a camera with a monitor in the office. They added an electric lock to the door. They did not replace the glass with laminated impact resistant glass. Made the whole installation pointless, not to mention that they are going to get sued over it, guaranteed. :(
| 566 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:52:44am |
re: #546 Killgore Trout
There's also no Constitutional right to explosive shoes. It's problematic that so many people bring too much baggage and pet issues into the debate.
Uh, the point wasn't about a "Constitutional right to explosive shoes." The point was society's reactions to incidents.
| 567 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:53:12am |
re: #566 Gus
Uh, the point wasn't about a "Constitutional right to explosive shoes." The point was society's reactions to incidents.
Silence!
I keel you!
/
| 568 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:53:42am |
I guess it'll take an Al Qaeda attack like this to wake America up.
| 569 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:53:43am |
re: #557 Varek Raith
Are you and RWC of the opinion that any and all gun control is unconstitutional?
The NRA does.
No, that would be stupid.
| 570 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:53:45am |
re: #558 Our Precious Bodily Fluids
You realize of course that the backlash from this isn't going to result in anything intelligent and effective. We're just going to have a new rash of 6 year olds getting tackled by the swat team for making a finger gun and yelling "bang", and introvert teenagers getting treated like potential war criminals over their comics and video games. Laws will be passed restricting cosmetic features of certain types of guns (maybe), and people will continue to believe that an absence of clinical mental illness (e.g. schizophrenia) will mean that external rather than internal causes must be assumed. We (over)react to danger with hysteria, which is why we have a gun culture in the first place.
Yes, I am also concerned about which you speak. Somehow, I think this is different. The age of the victims hit home with a lot of people in a way these shooting never have before.
This is the critical time, when it is fresh in everyone's mind and the holiday season, for INDIVIDUALs to take action. No matter how small--even voicing your opinion about the NRA or common sense guns laws or mental health treatment.
| 571 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:54:17am |
re: #567 Varek Raith
Silence!
I keel you!
/
I eagerly await to learn what's on the recommended list at Daily Kos.
//
| 572 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:54:43am |
re: #565 watching you tiny alien kittens are
They put up a camera with a monitor in the office. They added an electric lock to the door. They did not replace the glass with laminated impact resistant glass. Made the whole installation pointless, not to mention that they are going to get sued over it, guaranteed. :(
Thing is, there's always going to be a point of failure. If it's not mechanical, it'll be human. See also the initial report that he was buzzed in by the faculty because his mother worked there.
| 573 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:55:06am |
re: #569 Killgore Trout
No, that would be stupid.
Then you missed the point of my shoe bomber post.
We placed lots of checks to make sure it won't happen.
With guns?
We ignore it.
| 574 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:55:14am |
re: #568 Varek Raith
I guess it'll take an Al Qaeda attack like this to wake America up.
It it were Al Q, they would be calling for even more guns. And revenge.
| 576 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:55:50am |
re: #529 Obdicut
The NRA has slowly but surely convinced me I need to be wary of and untrusting of gun owners in general.
I own guns, but I don't understand the mentality of a lot of gun owners I interact with. The prospect of being in a self defense scenario does not excite me; I find the trend of "I'll be ready when the shit goes down" boasting to be not just unimpressive, but creepy.
re: #554 Varek Raith
The NRA thinks the UN is coming to take our guns away.
They are paranoid.
Also, black people. I know, harsh, but the NRA have totally got into the "fear the urban youth" thing. When they call me to solicit money its one of the things that gets trotted out, along with home invasions and carjackings.
| 578 |
bratwurst Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:56:37am |
re: #575 jaunte
[Link: www.nrastore.com...]
If you take away my flask, only CRIMINALS will have flasks!
| 579 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:56:54am |
re: #573 Varek Raith
Then you missed the point of my shoe bomber post.
We place lots of checks to make sure it won't happen.
With guns?
We ignore it.
Bath salts. Don't forget how they all fell over backwards to create laws and ban "bath salts" after that face eating incident.
| 580 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:57:12am |
I just refuse to accept massacres being the norm in this country.
Call me crazy.
| 581 |
jaunte Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:57:25am |
re: #577 Gus
"When you might shoot a friend in the face, be sure to bring some disinfectant."
| 582 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:57:32am |
re: #575 jaunte
[Link: www.nrastore.com...]
The right thing to wear in Florida if you are a black teenager:
| 583 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:57:53am |
re: #560 Gus
Insp Michael Brown
@MentalHealthCopInterested in the natural venn diagram of policing, mental health and criminal justice. Winner of the 2012 Mark Hanson Digital Media Award from @MindCharity
Birmingham, UK · [Link: www.mentalhealthcop.wordpress.com...]
Is there a US version?
| 584 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:58:38am |
re: #579 Gus
Bath salts. Don't forget how they all fell over backwards to create laws and ban "bath salts" after that face eating incident.
We're a reactive society, not a proactive one, primarily because of the growing distrust in government. When government tries to enact new regulations to prevent such tragedies, the response is "Hey, so what if I want do that, it's my right!" Then when the tragedy happens and good people are killed, suddenly the ones who spouted off about their rights get drowned out by those shocked at how such a tragedy could have happened and "Why didn't the government do something to prevent this?!"
| 585 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:58:50am |
re: #583 Holidays are Family Fun Time
Is there a US version?
Don't know. This one seems interesting.
| 586 |
Skip Intro Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:00:10am |
re: #582 Sol Berdinowitz
nrastore seems to be doing a booming business today. I can't access the site to see what your post is about.
| 587 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:01:17am |
re: #586 Skip Intro
nrastore seems to be doing a booming business today. I can't access the site to see what your post is about.
nra hoodies
| 588 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:01:34am |
re: #585 Gus
Don't know. This one seems interesting.
A lot of good resources, I paged it.
I used to get a lot of info from NAMI and other sources. I never thought the information and the message was "In your face" enough to really get to the point. But these organizations have to take the long view and over time they have made good changes happen.
I'll have to find time to reintroduce myself to mental health advocacy. I"ve been bogged down in the War on Women.
| 589 |
Ming Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:01:36am |
re: #31 Ghost of Tom Joad
I'd rather it just be a trained security guard or cop stationed there. Hell, even the grade schools around here have full-time security teams. Might as well train them, or hire ex-cops or something. I'd rather a trained professional than a principal packing heat.
I agree. A related suggestion is to spend more money on local police and sheriff departments, so an officer is either right there at the school, or likely to be close by.
As the recent shooting at the Empire State Building showed, things can go wrong even with trained professionals. But still, better a trained professional than an amateur.
Ideally, I'd like to see some gun control. Why can the government regulate who can drive a car, but not who can walk around with an assault rifle? But until that happens, we apparently could use more funding of, and protection by, trained law enforcement.
| 590 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:02:57am |
The "There was a knife attack in China, let's ban knives" canard is fucking everywhere, by the way. Echo chamber.
| 591 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:03:55am |
re: #503 Varek Raith
For a start, responsible gun owners should ditch the NRA. Cancel your memberships and cut off financial donations.
The NRA is the epitome of irresponsible gun policies.
1) Many of us have. I have never given the NRA a penny since I was of age.
2) The NRA is far from the worst out there. Go check the Gun Owners of America sometime...
| 592 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:04:11am |
re: #566 Gus
Uh, the point wasn't about a "Constitutional right to explosive shoes." The point was society's reactions to incidents.
...and if you want a smart and effective reaction I suggest utilizing smart and effective ideas. Junking up the national conversation with apples and oranges comparisons and silly talking points is counter productive. I think something may come of this incident but I suspect it's going to be another useless initiative to appease public opinion rather than anything to fix the problem. We'll probably end up with a congressional investigation into the video game industry. At best we'll get some minor cosmetic tweak to gun control but probably nothing that would have prevented this attack or any other.
| 593 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:04:58am |
re: #590 The Ghost of a Flea
The "There was a knife attack in China, let's ban knives" canard is fucking everywhere, by the way. Echo chamber.
"Cars kill more people than guns, let's ban cars!"
I agree with sentiment expressed yesterday that nobody is proposing we ban cars, but they also aren't proposing we do away with stop signs and signal lights.
| 594 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:05:18am |
re: #591 William Barnett-Lewis
1) Many of us have. I have never given the NRA a penny since I was of age.
2) The NRA is far from the worst out there. Go check the Gun Owners of America sometime...
The NRA influences a massive number of politicians.
| 595 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:05:25am |
re: #591 William Barnett-Lewis
1) Many of us have. I have never given the NRA a penny since I was of age.
2) The NRA is far from the worst out there. Go check the Gun Owners of America sometime...
How about these guys?
| 596 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:05:35am |
re: #592 Killgore Trout
...and if you want a smart and effective reaction I suggest utilizing smart and effective ideas. Junking up the national conversation with apples and oranges comparisons and silly talking points is counter productive. I think something may come of this incident but I suspect it's going to be another useless initiative to appease public opinion rather than anything to fix the problem. We'll probably end up with a congressional investigation into the video game industry. At best we'll get some minor cosmetic tweak to gun control but probably nothing that would have prevented this attack or any other.
Sorry. But it seems as though you're the one that wants to get stuck on that meme. No, that's not all that people are saying out there.
| 597 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:07:15am |
re: #592 Killgore Trout
...and if you want a smart and effective reaction I suggest utilizing smart and effective ideas. Junking up the national conversation with apples and oranges comparisons and silly talking points is counter productive. I think something may come of this incident but I suspect it's going to be another useless initiative to appease public opinion rather than anything to fix the problem. We'll probably end up with a congressional investigation into the video game industry. At best we'll get some minor cosmetic tweak to gun control but probably nothing that would have prevented this attack or any other.
And yet, we do come up with lots of restrictions to other crimes and things terrorists have done.
Yet, we ignore the gun issue. So my post was not apples and oranges. It was pointing out that we reacted strongly to ONE person and explosive shoes and yet don't react at all when 20 kids get killed.
| 598 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:08:17am |
re: #597 Varek Raith
Or when a theater gets shot up.
Or malls.
Or a number of schools.
All brushed aside.
| 599 |
Skip Intro Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:08:30am |
re: #593 Targetpractice
"Cars kill more people than guns, let's ban cars!"
I don't think you can kill a group of people from a distance with a car.
| 600 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:10:22am |
re: #591 William Barnett-Lewis
1) Many of us have. I have never given the NRA a penny since I was of age.
2) The NRA is far from the worst out there. Go check the Gun Owners of America sometime...
The NRA teamed-up with the Second Amendment Foundation to prosecute in New Orleans when the police started confiscating guns. Which was a clear violation of the law. That was a good thing.
Much of the behind the scenes legal work is valid and the only resource people have who have been denied their right to self-defense. It's the rhetoric and paranoia of the marketing/fundraising wing that is a big problem.
The NRA is really the only organization with real education and training for gun use and the legal issues for civilians. I find this sad. There is also real lack of including the real demographics of this country. This I find insane. I think they NRA will cease to exist by simple attrition of his membership in less than 100 years.
| 601 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:10:48am |
re: #595 Sol Berdinowitz
How about these guys?
Come over here instead:
We're trying to make a real difference but it's a hard row when the left assumes your paranoid and the right assumes you can't be a gun owner and be liberal.
| 602 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:10:57am |
re: #598 Varek Raith
Or when a theater gets shot up.
Or malls.
Or a number of schools.
All brushed aside.
Gun control deniers.
| 604 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:12:01am |
| 605 |
Mattand Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:12:47am |
re: #538 Varek Raith
One moron tries to blow up his explosive shoes and we all gotta take off our shoes at airports.
Multiple morons massacre hundreds of people and 'oh well, what can you do about it?'WTF.
With your permission, I may post this to my FB account later.
| 606 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:13:42am |
The Daily Grump | December 15, 2012 goo.gl/wsMHt #grumpycat— Grumpy Cat (@RealGrumpyCat) December 15, 2012
| 608 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:14:42am |
re: #604 Holidays are Family Fun Time
Space is a cold and lonely place.
In space, no one can hear you scream.
| 609 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:15:24am |
GOP's really big on protecting unborn fetuses. Not so big on protecting kindergartners when they hail the NRA.— John Dean (@JohnWDean) December 15, 2012
| 610 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:15:40am |
I think POTUS address moved a lot of people. Hubby who is not an Obama fan, thought it was from the heart and said it was a good speech.
The age of these kids has affected a lot of people not previously affected by mass shootings in this country.
| 611 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:15:46am |
re: #572 Targetpractice
Thing is, there's always going to be a point of failure. If it's not mechanical, it'll be human. See also the initial report that he was buzzed in by the faculty because his mother worked there.
Still a lot of misinformation on that one with no clear answer but supposedly according to a couple of sources his mother had worked there for a little while as an aide years ago. He had also attended school there years before, but it sounds as though they had not seen him since he attended school there. I'm not convinced that they would have buzzed him in without finding out who he was and what he wanted.
| 612 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:16:03am |
Don't go a year without hearing about a cop, a trained professional, shooting a kid or adult due to making a bad call. Now I'm supposed to believe teachers with a weekend gun course and a couple rounds at the shooting range will totally avoid shooting students by accident.
| 613 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:19:35am |
re: #593 Targetpractice
"Cars kill more people than guns, let's ban cars!"
I agree with sentiment expressed yesterday that nobody is proposing we ban cars, but they also aren't proposing we do away with stop signs and signal lights.
I wonder why the NRA doesn't also propose doing away with vehicle licensing, registration, pre-licensing driving tests, mandatory liability insurance, different types of requirements for different types of vehicles (e.g., 18-wheeler vs. motorcycle vs. passenger car), annual safety inspections...
And how about all the various ways you can fuck up and have your license removed? Driving drunk is a big one, but so is shirking your insurance responsibility. It's also frowned upon to drive around at 100MPH in a truck with no brakes and no turn signals.
We all live this way without feeling like we're living in a totalitarian hellhole**. It's just stuff you have to do if you want a car. Some people don't want the hassle, and have found ways to live without cars. But apparently it's preferable to soak your balls in lighter fluid, strike a match, and dance around singing "Disco Inferno" rather than even *consider* POSSIBLY adapting some of those concepts to firearms.
** unless we're crazy, or we're Alex Jones, in which case
teh sheeple better wake up and see the prison bars all around them
or something.
| 614 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:20:14am |
re: #612 Targetpractice
Don't go a year without hearing about a cop, a trained professional, shooting a kid or adult due to making a bad call. Now I'm supposed to believe teachers with a weekend gun course and a couple rounds at the shooting range will totally avoid shooting students by accident.
I am going to make a generality. Most teachers of elementary children I've met aren't candidates for gun ownership. They just aren't made that way. They are people who are working to promote peace and cooperation in the work they do. Switching gears to violent defense just isn't in their nature. Many I've met are Ghandi types who's nature would be to die before they willfully took another life. I don't totally understand this, but it is part of what makes them excellent at working with young children.
Not all, of course, but I said I was going to make a general statement.
| 615 |
Skip Intro Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:21:06am |
re: #612 Targetpractice
Don't go a year without hearing about a cop, a trained professional, shooting a kid or adult due to making a bad call. Now I'm supposed to believe teachers with a weekend gun course and a couple rounds at the shooting range will totally avoid shooting students by accident.
The assumption seems to be that they'll be like bots whose concentration on guard duty never falters. How they'll also be effective teachers is a mystery.
It also assumes that they'll never turn their backs to the class or the door, and they'll have their weapons at the ready at all times. Your point that trained pros who do this for a living still make mistakes is just icing on the cake.
| 616 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:21:24am |
Arming people to prevent gun violence is like fucking for virginity.— DC Debbie (@DCdebbie) December 15, 2012
| 617 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:21:46am |
The same peole who argue that "guns don't kill. people do" have no problem seizing on the idea that the mere presence of guns somewhere will help protect people
| 618 |
Skip Intro Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:22:24am |
re: #617 Sol Berdinowitz
The same peole who argue that "guns don't kill. people do" have no problem seizing on the idea that the mere presence of guns somewhere will help protect people
That didn't work out so well for the mother of the shooter.
| 619 |
McSpiff Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:22:35am |
So sad, all so sad. I'm not American, don't live in America. But I think there needs to be some serious soul searching done on the 2nd. Why should everyone have the right to shoot up a school? Because giving access to military grade weapons essentially gives everyone that right. As we keep seeing again and again...
| 620 |
Skip Intro Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:24:47am |
re: #619 McSpiff
Without the Second Amendment, how would we get rid of tyrants?
| 621 |
McSpiff Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:26:03am |
re: #620 Skip Intro
Without the Second Amendment, how would we get rid of tyrants?
Just gotta have more guns. Then the world will conform to their world view, if it likes it or not.
| 622 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:26:29am |
re: #616 Gus
[Embedded content]
To a point. I think it does prevent many criminals, but not whackos. There is something about the mindset I've never been able to articulate. People I know who have grown up with guns (like me) or are shooters--actually aren't victims of crimes. I think it's a lot like the victims of abusers can always be picked-out of a crowd (or at a bar) by abusers. A confidence thing? a sense that "this person will fight back" or "isn't an easy mark". I don't know.
It's an inner psychological thing.
I'm always returning to the women I know who are so fearful of guns they won't even talk about them. I really worry that some idiot will try to steal their car or rape them with a painted over child's toy gun and they will submit, so fearful they won't even try to recognize the weapon the person is using.
| 623 |
jaunte Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:27:05am |
re: #619 McSpiff
The 2nd Amendment keeps being brought up as if its an absolute argument stopper, but it was written back when many people still had to hunt to eat meat. Not to mention the "well-regulated militia" part that seems to be ignored by the NRA lobby. We've had a lot of modifications to laws under the Constitution, so the 2nd should not be immune.
| 624 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:27:09am |
| 625 |
Political Atheist Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:29:28am |
re: #552 Obdicut
There is no comparison between the NRA's promotion of paranoia and the ACLU's defense of unpopular speech. None. It is a terrible, terrible comparison to draw, especially in the current circumstances.
Did I specify the ACLU and NRA it's paranoia? No, I did not. You added that specificity all on your own. You added your layer of perception to mine as if I were promoting the paranoia and not the safety education side. So now I have to make that distinction clear. Again. As if I did not make that distinction as clear as crystal above.
The circumstances are terrible. Let's not forget many people died in many places because of the hateful anti Islamic video. Those who favor restricting speech, favor not having a first amendment drew this connection. Because where they live the man that made that video could be prosecuted and not here. Not for the video content.
Rights advocates are held responsible for the abuses of that right. Whether that should be so is a whole other topic.
I'm out to wait for enough calm about this incident that words are not being put in my mouth.
| 626 |
McSpiff Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:29:51am |
re: #622 Holidays are Family Fun Time
I'm going to posit that a M4-style Bushmaster has never been used to stop a rape. I would imagine that several rapes have involved the phrase "Do I need to get my gun out?", but I could be wrong.
| 627 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:31:02am |
re: #622 Holidays are Family Fun Time
To a point. I think it does prevent many criminals, but not whackos. There is something about the mindset I've never been able to articulate. People I know who have grown up with guns (like me) or are shooters--actually aren't victims of crimes. I think it's a lot like the victims of abusers can always be picked-out of a crowd (or at a bar) by abusers. A confidence thing? a sense that "this person will fight back" or "isn't an easy mark". I don't know.
It's an inner psychological thing.
I'm always returning to the women I know who are so fearful of guns they won't even talk about them. I really worry that some idiot will try to steal their car or rape them with a painted over child's toy gun and they will submit, so fearful they won't even try to recognize the weapon the person is using.
I think she means the idea of arming everyone which is an idea that's been thrown about of late. I would say that a solution of more guns would be worse than what we face now. In fact, I would prefer to maintain the status quo over an idea of arming more people.
| 628 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:33:11am |
If only you owned an outlet to get out the message! RT @rupertmurdoch: When will politicians find courage to ban automatic weapons?— Schmendrick (@ATLGreg1) December 15, 2012
| 629 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:34:12am |
re: #628 Our Precious Bodily Fluids
[Embedded content]
They did, ages ago. 1934 to be exact. Owning one today is a matter of much headache and money. Most owning automatic weapons aren't the sort who would spend that much time and money just to go on a shooting rampage.
| 630 |
McSpiff Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:34:17am |
re: #628 Our Precious Bodily Fluids
[Embedded content]
Well, lets not go crazy. That might cost him viewers.
| 631 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:35:40am |
re: #623 jaunte
The 2nd Amendment keeps being brought up as if its an absolute argument stopper, but it was written back when many people still had to hunt to eat meat. Not to mention the "well-regulated militia" part that seems to be ignored by the NRA lobby. We've had a lot of modifications to laws under the Constitution, so the 2nd should not be immune.
"well regulated"
The point, for me, is that self-defence is not articulated in the Constitution. The 2nd amendent as part of the Bill of Rights is the closest thing we have to wording that prevents the government from removing individual right to self defense.
What seems like such an obvious right has been removed from citizens in history. It's a big deal. and it's an Individual Choice to defend oneself or not.
I'd be in favor of an amendment to the this effect:
The federal or state governments may not deny individual citizens the right to defend their bodies, their families or their property from imminent danger by what ever means possible.
I think denying the government ability to remove the right of self defense from individuals would stop a lot of the fear and the rhetoric about making us all slaves, tyrants etc.
I also think you can't remove the choice if it goes the other way. If one is truly non-violent, one can't be prosecuted for not defending themselves, or others.
Like reproductive rights, it's about individual choice.
| 632 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:35:48am |
re: #628 Our Precious Bodily Fluids
[Embedded content]
Terrible news today. When will politicians find courage to ban automatic weapons?As in Oz after similar tragedy.— Rupert Murdoch(@rupertmurdoch) December 15, 2012
| 633 |
McSpiff Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:36:31am |
re: #629 Targetpractice
They did, ages ago. 1934 to be exact. Owning one today is a matter of much headache and money. Most owning automatic weapons aren't the sort who would spend that much time and money just to go on a shooting rampage.
Don't be obtuse.
| 634 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:36:48am |
re: #632 Gus
[Embedded content]
.@rupertmurdoch When will enlightened media moguls urge their 'conservative' news properties to cover the gun debate more responsibly?— Jonathan Glick (@jonathanglick) December 15, 2012
| 635 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:37:28am |
Nancy Lanza was an avid gun collector who would often go shooting with her son. reuters.com/article/2012/1...— Andrew Kaczynski (@BuzzFeedAndrew) December 15, 2012
| 636 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:39:21am |
re: #627 Gus
I think she means the idea of arming everyone which is an idea that's been thrown about of late. I would say that a solution of more guns would be worse than what we face now. In fact, I would prefer to maintain the status quo over an idea of arming more people.
oh, yes, arming everyone for the sake of arming everyone is ludicrous. My gentleman shooter father was adamant about that. He wasn't showing his old- fashioned racists self in this instance. He counseled a lot of people and many he told that they didn't have to own a gun.
He grew-up shooting for his food, literally, before rural electricity type person. That mindset and culture is over. He always saw the gun as a tool for a specific purpose and as proficient for the purposes he thought he would need. Home defense and getting food. Not trophys.
| 637 |
aagcobb Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:40:27am |
re: #629 Targetpractice
They did, ages ago. 1934 to be exact. Owning one today is a matter of much headache and money. Most owning automatic weapons aren't the sort who would spend that much time and money just to go on a shooting rampage.
That is kind of not the point. If most people owning automatic weapons went on shooting rampages, we would be living in Somalia of Afghanistan. The fact is that allowing people to own automatic weapons makes it easy for the few mentally ill people who do go on shooting rampages to kill lots of people.
| 638 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:40:53am |
For gunnies seeking the safety of universal gun ownership, I also suggest Somalia, Libya & Syria. #NRAheaven— Nicholas Kristof (@NickKristof) December 15, 2012
| 639 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:41:06am |
re: #629 Targetpractice
They did, ages ago. 1934 to be exact. Owning one today is a matter of much headache and money. Most owning automatic weapons aren't the sort who would spend that much time and money just to go on a shooting rampage.
OMG! the Machine Gun shoot in Kentucky every year. I hear a lot about that. Men plan for it every year. Something about paying lots of money for the opportunity to shoot a machine gun. I just don't get it. It's totally a guy thing.
| 640 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:42:17am |
4 of the worst 11 shootings in US history have happened during O's presidency. And during same time restrictions on guns eased. #hope&change— Abby Huntsman (@HuntsmanAbby) December 15, 2012
Derp.
| 641 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:42:45am |
I think places like Somalia, Libia and Syria are proof that anyone who really wants a gun can get one --lots of them, legally or illegally.
Repression doesn't work.
| 642 |
b_sharp Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:43:37am |
Not to be a jerk, but as an outsider I see a well defined and fairly powerful undercurrent of fear in a large sub-population of the US. I don't see that same undercurrent in countries like the UK (despite groups like the EDL) where they've suffered repeated attacks throughout their history.
Is this because of isolation or from propaganda?
| 643 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:43:52am |
re: #633 McSpiff
Don't be obtuse.
Why is the truth obtuse? Because you don't want to be bothered knowing the difference? There are many significant differences between a real assault rifle and the black plastic semi-automatic weapons on the market.
Even more different are the M1 Garands or Remington 742 deer rifles that would be banned if you ban all semi-automatic weapons.
And don't give me another worthless "Assault weapon ban" that banned nothing and stopped no crimes.
| 644 |
McSpiff Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:44:32am |
re: #641 Holidays are Family Fun Time
I think places like Somalia, Libia and Syria are proof that anyone who really wants a gun can get one --lots of them, legally or illegally.
Repression doesn't work.
What? What restrictions are there on guns in Somalia? Derp.
| 645 |
jaunte Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:46:05am |
re: #642 b_sharp
Acculturated hypervigilance. Sort of a societal PTSD.
| 646 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:46:39am |
re: #645 jaunte
Acculturated hypervigilance. Sort of a societal PTSD.
Corollary with white flight in some instances.
| 647 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:46:44am |
re: #637 aagcobb
That is kind of not the point. If most people owning automatic weapons went on shooting rampages, we would be living in Somalia of Afghanistan. The fact is that allowing people to own automatic weapons makes it easy for the few mentally ill people who do go on shooting rampages to kill lots of people.
It has been unlawful since 1934 (The National Firearms Act) for civilians to own machine guns without special permission from the U.S. Treasury Department. Machine guns are subject to a $200 tax every time their ownership changes from one federally registered owner to another, and each new weapon is subject to a manufacturing tax when it is made, and it must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in its National Firearms Registry.
To become a registered owner, a complete FBI background investigation is conducted, checking for any criminal history or tendencies toward violence, and an application must be submitted to the ATF including two sets of fingerprints, a recent photo, a sworn affidavit that transfer of the NFA firearm is of "reasonable necessity," and that sale to and possession of the weapon by the applicant "would be consistent with public safety." The application form also requires the signature of a chief law enforcement officer with jurisdiction in the applicant's residence.
Since the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of May 19, 1986, ownership of newly manufactured machine guns has been prohibited to civilians. Machine guns which were manufactured prior to the Act's passage are regulated under the National Firearms Act, but those manufactured after the ban cannot ordinarily be sold to or owned by civilians.
| 648 |
McSpiff Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:49:32am |
re: #643 William Barnett-Lewis
Why is the truth obtuse? Because you don't want to be bothered knowing the difference? There are many significant differences between a real assault rifle and the black plastic semi-automatic weapons on the market.
Even more different are the M1 Garands or Remington 742 deer rifles that would be banned if you ban all semi-automatic weapons.
And don't give me another worthless "Assault weapon ban" that banned nothing and stopped no crimes.
I absolutely understand the difference, but thanks for being an asshole anyways. I would never advocate a ban on something as narrow as semi-automatic weapons. That's dumb, we both agree. What needs to be looked at is the availability of weapons designed to fire a large number of rounds in as short of a time as possible, with in some cases an added element of concealment. 5 round semi-auto long-gun style deer hunting rifle like the M1 or 742 is very different from something like the civilian model, semi-auto M4s or TEC-9s. But I'm sure you already understood that.
| 649 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:49:43am |
re: #644 McSpiff
What? What restrictions are there on guns in Somalia? Derp.
IIRC, the local government "sheriff" decides if you can have one, even if you qualify under the gun laws (which they did have). Most of those sheriffs are political appointees --i this case the regime is muslim. People in the south were Christians and Animists. Made it really hard for the southern farmers to defend their farms --and many are now refugees. Ethnic cleansing by lack of self-defense?
I haven't researched this In a couple years so the information is old may have been refuted.
IANSA published, at one time, the list of gun laws for what ever countries publshed them. I think, like a lot of human rights laws, a lot are worded to please the International Community and as a goal, but aren't strictly followed yet.
| 650 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:50:54am |
re: #625 Political Atheist
Did I specify the ACLU and NRA it's paranoia? No, I did not. You added that specificity all on your own. You added your layer of perception to mine as if I were promoting the paranoia and not the safety education side. So now I have to make that distinction clear. Again. As if I did not make that distinction as clear as crystal above.
You specified the ACLU, which at its worst does a great service in defending unpopular speech, and the NRA, which at its worst promotes paranoia. You cannot promote the safety educational side of the NRA while rejecting the paranoia. You cannot compare them to the ACLU, which does no such thing. It is a terrible comparison, and especially in the current circumstances.
You were the one who brought up the ACLU defending unpopular speech as the analogy to the NRA's promotion of paranoia. You really did.
The worst of the NRA has made it's best gun responsibility and safety efforts unwelcome, even among those who call for increased safety education, rules and requirements.
I know people who feel the same way about the ACLU for backing free speech by people & groups quite hateful.
You weren't comparing the good the ACLU does with the good the NRA does, you were saying you know people who are turned off by the 'bad' side of the NRA in the same way people are turned off from the ACLU for backing free speech by people. It is not the same. Defending unpopular free speech is a good thing. Promoting paranoia is not.
I put no words in your mouth. It was deeply foolish of you to compare the ACLU and the NRA.
| 651 |
McSpiff Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:50:55am |
re: #649 Holidays are Family Fun Time
IIRC, the local government "sheriff" decides if you can have one, even if you qualify under the gun laws (which they did have). Most of those sheriffs are political appointees --i this case the regime is muslim. People in the south were Christians and Animists. Made it really hard for the southern farmers to defend their farms --and many are now refugees. Ethnic cleansing by lack of self-defense?
I haven't researched this In a couple years so the information is old may have been refuted.
IANSA published, at one time, the list of gun laws for what ever countries publshed them. I think, like a lot of human rights laws, a lot are worded to please the International Community and as a goal, but aren't strictly followed yet.
...if you actually believe everything you just posted I highly suggest you do some actual research before posting about it.
| 652 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:51:17am |
Gotta run to work so I have to type this quickly.
Here's my answer to this problem.
Put long range RFID chips on all guns, possibly the same with gun licenses.
Say that only police and guards are allowed in public places with guns.
If anyone shows up on a campus or mall or stadium carrying a gun that isn't licensed to be there, the police automatically issue a warrant for the owner's arrest and show up.
Also, of course, make it a jail offense to own or sell an unchipped gun.
| 654 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:52:52am |
Among the world's 23 wealthiest countries, 80% of all gun deaths are American and 87% of all kids killed by guns are American. USA! USA!— Mrs. Betty Bowers (@BettyBowers) December 15, 2012
| 655 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:52:57am |
re: #648 McSpiff
I absolutely understand the difference, but thanks for being an asshole anyways. I would never advocate a ban on something as narrow as semi-automatic weapons. That's dumb, we both agree. What needs to be looked at is the availability of weapons designed to fire a large number of rounds in as short of a time as possible, with in some cases an added element of concealment. 5 round semi-auto long-gun style deer hunting rifle like the M1 or 742 is very different from something like the civilian model, semi-auto M4s or TEC-9s. But I'm sure you already understood that.
What Rupert is doing is muddying the water, if not just being an idiot. Truly automatic weapons are already heavily regulated, they're not being used to gun down civilians. This is where we get into situations like the "Assault Weapon Ban," which ended up being rightfully ridiculed for going after weapons because they looked scary rather than their capacity for being use to commit murder on a large scale in a short period of time.
| 656 |
McSpiff Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:54:17am |
re: #655 Targetpractice
What Rupert is doing is muddying the water, if not just being an idiot. Truly automatic weapons are already heavily regulated, they're not being used to gun down civilians. This is where we get into situations like the "Assault Weapon Ban," which ended up being rightfully ridiculed for going after weapons because they looked scary rather than their capacity for being use to commit murder on a large scale in a short period of time.
Yes, the AWB was bad policy for a number reasons. I don't think hes muddying the waters in this case, but YMMV
| 657 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:54:58am |
| 658 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:55:19am |
re: #655 Targetpractice
In the setting these weapons are used, handguns are usually the most 'effective'. Rifles are for shooting at people long distance. These assholes like being close. Murdoch is either out of touch or intentionally obtuse.
| 659 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:56:00am |
In 2012, total gun deaths in the UK, where gun ownership is essentially banned outright: 39.
In 2012, total gun deaths in the US, where gun ownership is promoted by the pro-gun lobby as a panacea: 94,134.
If anyone wants to argue that more guns = less crime, explain those numbers first.
| 661 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:56:38am |
re: #647 Targetpractice
Another example of lack of education.
The ugly looking guns must be more dangerous. Fine wooden carved stocks and gleaming barrels, must be safe guns.
Hell, the semi-auto military style rifle I held in Gun Safety was so heavy It had to be handed to me and removed. I couldn't lift it and position it without wrenching my shoulder and elbow. It's just not a gun everyone can fire accurately. The idea that everyone wants one is insane to me. There were no fully-automatics available for trial because it IS ILLEGAL FOR CIVILIANS TO HAVE THEM. The NRA gun-nut instructors made that very clear. Shit, a retired Army Ranger taught the rifle section of the 1 course I took.
How our soldiers do it with 100+ lb packs of equipment in the desert heat is a marvel to me.
Kids I know who took the hunters safety course (the one you an get a boy scout badge for, I think) Now are movie experts. They know everything that is wrong in what the movie producers portray.
Ignorance does us NO GOOD.
| 662 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:57:54am |
re: #658 Obdicut
Murdoch is being obtuse. And that is being very polite.
| 663 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:58:23am |
re: #655 Targetpractice
What Rupert is doing is muddying the water, if not just being an idiot. Truly automatic weapons are already heavily regulated, they're not being used to gun down civilians. This is where we get into situations like the "Assault Weapon Ban," which ended up being rightfully ridiculed for going after weapons because they looked scary rather than their capacity for being use to commit murder on a large scale in a short period of time.
QFT.
| 664 |
jaunte Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:59:07am |
I don't know why the British and Canadians are so much better at not attacking each other, in the absence of deadly home defense capability.
| 665 |
McSpiff Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:59:24am |
re: #659 Charles Johnson
In 2012, total gun deaths in the UK, where gun ownership is essentially banned outright: 39.
In 2012, total gun deaths in the US, where gun ownership is promoted by the pro-gun lobby as a panacea: 94,134.
If anyone wants to argue that more guns = less crime, explain those numbers first.
In Canada, where generally only long guns with low magazine counts are available for hunting, 173 (2009). Its almost like when you restrict firearms access to hunting, the problem nearly goes away. There is a middle ground between full gun ownership and full banning. That's what America needs to embrace.
| 666 |
Randall Gross Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:59:24am |
Thought exercise:
If the school shooter were named Muhammed instead of Adam, how would the media and right wing bloggers be covering this?
| 667 |
Amory Blaine Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:59:35am |
Clearly a war on video games is warranted.
| 668 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:59:50am |
re: #651 McSpiff
I haven't researched this In a couple years so the information is old may have been refuted.
selective reader?
| 670 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:00:37am |
re: #669 Amory Blaine
Farming Simulator for everyone!!!!
Uh...
It's actually kind of fun.
Really.
/Weirdo
| 671 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:00:48am |
re: #667 Amory Blaine
Clearly a war on video games is warranted.
Jack Thompson's ears just perked up.
| 672 |
McSpiff Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:00:50am |
re: #668 Holidays are Family Fun Time
selective reader?
Your information was wrong nearly 30 years ago.
| 673 |
jaunte Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:01:07am |
re: #666 Randall Gross
"We have to consider a total Muhammad ban."
| 674 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:01:30am |
re: #670 Varek Raith
Uh...
It's actually kind of fun.
Really.
/Weirdo
Really? Huh, might have to look into it.
| 675 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:01:34am |
re: #658 Obdicut
In the setting these weapons are used, handguns are usually the most 'effective'. Rifles are for shooting at people long distance. These assholes like being close. Murdoch is either out of touch or intentionally obtuse.
The latter.
| 676 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:01:42am |
| 677 |
Skip Intro Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:02:20am |
re: #667 Amory Blaine
Clearly a war on video games is warranted.
I don't know if video games, movies, tv, popular culture, something else, or some combination of the above convinces young people that going out in a murderous rage is a cool thing to do, but something sure does. I'd like to know what it is.
| 678 |
b_sharp Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:02:20am |
re: #666 Randall Gross
If the school shooter were named Muhammed, how would the media and right wing bloggers be covering this?
I don't want to know.
| 680 |
Randall Gross Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:02:44am |
Oooh.... I got the number of the beast with that comment.
| 681 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:02:56am |
re: #674 Targetpractice
Really? Huh, might have to look into it.
Like I said, I'm odd.
;)
Though, I totally recommend this
[Link: www.trainzportal.com...]
| 682 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:03:40am |
re: #677 Skip Intro
Why did you leave "experience shooting real guns" off your list?
| 683 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:03:56am |
re: #672 McSpiff
Your information was wrong nearly 30 years ago.
So, instead of being snarky, simply say that. Give me a place to start my research for correct information.
Your knowledge seems to be up-to-date, where do you get your info. Share and cooperate if you are really interested in educating.
| 684 |
b_sharp Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:04:16am |
re: #677 Skip Intro
I don't know if video games, movies, tv, popular culture, something else, or some combination of the above convinces young people that going out in a murderous rage is a cool thing to do, but something sure does. I'd like to know what it is.
The average American gets more upset with the thought of their kids seeing sex on TV/movie than seeing gun violence.
| 685 |
Skip Intro Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:04:40am |
re: #682 stabby
Why did you leave "experience shooting real guns" off your list?
Do you think that's the cause? Feel free to include that as part of "something else" then.
| 686 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:05:06am |
re: #681 Varek Raith
Like I said, I'm odd.
;)
Though, I totally recommend this
[Link: www.trainzportal.com...]
Something my dad would probably enjoy, he's been big on trains since he was a kid.
Was hoping that Microsoft Flight making a comeback would last longer, but alas, that was not meant to be.
| 687 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:06:06am |
re: #686 Targetpractice
Something my dad would probably enjoy, he's been big on trains since he was a kid.
Was hoping that Microsoft Flight making a comeback would last longer, but alas, that was not meant to be.
It's a great replacement for those who don't have the money or space for a train layout.
| 688 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:06:25am |
re: #684 b_sharp
The American justice system would punish a kid for having sex at school more harshly than it would punish one for shooting someone at school, so apparently we have our priorities in order.
| 689 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:07:47am |
re: #685 Skip Intro
I think shooting actual guns probably correlates to gun violence a lot more than playing call of duty.
| 690 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:09:05am |
re: #689 stabby
I think shooting actual guns probably correlates to gun violence a lot more than playing call of duty.
I'll say that if my CoD experience is enough to train me for combat, then I'm more a liability than an asset. Might as well have "bullet magnet" tattooed across my forehead.
| 691 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:09:29am |
After all, kids in countries where people DON'T shoot each other say Japan and England play plenty of video games.
| 692 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:09:30am |
I routinely glass planets.
GTA? Play it a lot.
Watch violent animes a lot.
Don't see me picking up a gun and killing people.
| 693 |
Amory Blaine Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:09:41am |
Oh Noez!!! Little Billie saw boobz. Off to church for some penance then we'll go to the shooting range to talk about it.
| 695 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:10:26am |
re: #691 stabby
After all, kids in countries where people DON'T shoot each other say Japan and England play plenty of video games.
Japan is also big into Airsoft, which is about as close as the average teen is going to get to owning a real gun unless he joins the military or police force.
| 696 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:10:44am |
Of course, before video games, it was the music.
Before music, it was comic books.
Yeppers.
| 697 |
Interesting Times Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:10:46am |
re: #635 Gus
[Embedded content]
FFFFFFUUUUUUU...
Nancy Lanza was an avid gun collector who once showed him a "really nice, high-end rifle" that she had purchased, said Dan Holmes, owner of a landscaping business who recently decorated her yard with Christmas garlands and lights. "She said she would often go target shooting with her kids."
MOAR GUNZ! MOAR GUNZ! MOAR GUNZ!
...now, wouldn't it be the ultimate kick in the nuts if it turned out she was an NRA member as well?
| 698 |
Renaissance_Man Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:10:57am |
re: #659 Charles Johnson
In 2012, total gun deaths in the UK, where gun ownership is essentially banned outright: 39.
In 2012, total gun deaths in the US, where gun ownership is promoted by the pro-gun lobby as a panacea: 94,134.
If anyone wants to argue that more guns = less crime, explain those numbers first.
Where are these numbers from? Love to take a look.
| 699 |
Amory Blaine Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:11:27am |
I see laser tag places sprouting up here and there recently.
| 701 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:11:46am |
re: #666 Randall Gross
If the school shooter were named Muhammed, how would the media and right wing bloggers be covering this?
Considering the number of men named Muhammed, there would have been even more confusion about the identity of the killer...
| 702 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:11:49am |
ICP caused Columbine!
No, wait!
It was Doom!
| 703 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:12:31am |
| 704 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:12:38am |
Anyway I'll say this again
Put long range RFID chips on all guns people can buy and automatically detect whenever a gun comes into a school + make selling and owning unchipped guns a jail offense. Put detectors in all public places - ones that dial the police.
See, problems are solvable.
| 706 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:13:16am |
re: #689 stabby
I think shooting actual guns probably correlates to gun violence a lot more than playing call of duty.
Per your earlier posts. I don't think RFID chips would work. Those chips stick to plastic, metal or cardboard. You simply remove the sticker and security never knows you have a gun.
| 707 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:14:37am |
re: #706 A Man for all Seasons
build them into the barrels.
if anyone suspects that you're a nutcase the police can inspect your guns to see if you removed the chip.
If you did you go to jail before committing a crime.
| 710 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:15:53am |
though it might be possible to build one into metal with some engineering research
| 712 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:16:36am |
re: #709 Obdicut
The range probably depends on the detectors more than the chips.
Longer range systems could be built
| 713 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:17:25am |
re: #711 Obdicut
If we can detect GPS signals from earth, we can free up a band like that to detect guns.
| 714 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:17:52am |
re: #707 stabby
build them into the barrels.
if anyone suspects that you're a nutcase the police can inspect your guns to see if you removed the chip.
If you did you go to jail before committing a crime.
Do you really think this would get passed? Really? And then force people to bring in all 290,000,000 old guns? Without massive violence?
| 715 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:18:18am |
re: #712 stabby
It's unworkable. Completely. RFID is easy to block. Any sort of radiation that is safe is going to be easy to block. You'd need a massive network of detectors, including on every window. It won't work.
| 716 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:18:31am |
re: #714 William Barnett-Lewis
Do you really think this would get passed? Really? And then force people to bring in all 290,000,000 old guns? Without massive violence?
Responsible gun owners!
e_e
| 717 |
dragonfire1981 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:18:43am |
I'm not a gun expert but I was under the impression it was relatively easy to convert a semi-automatic weapon to a full auto weapon, thus rendering any bans on such weapons effectively moot.
| 718 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:18:50am |
re: #714 William Barnett-Lewis
It would require some massive phase in.
And in 20 years the problem would be much better.
| 719 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:18:51am |
re: #707 stabby
build them into the barrels.
if anyone suspects that you're a nutcase the police can inspect your guns to see if you removed the chip.
If you did you go to jail before committing a crime.
I'm not a gun guy but I'm pretty sure if you place a label with a chip in the barrel and fire your gun It would blow up in your face.
But some here know so much about guns. Target?
| 720 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:19:05am |
Wouldn't it be great if @bradybuzz had more followers than the @nra? #ff— LOLGOP (@LOLGOP) December 15, 2012
| 722 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:19:48am |
re: #716 Varek Raith
Responsible gun owners!
e_e
There's a hell of a lot of fear out there already. Do you really want to play into it?
| 723 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:20:01am |
Force us to do anything with are gunz and we'll start shootin'!
//
| 724 |
wrenchwench Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:20:04am |
re: #522 Gus
#SecClinton dehydrated from stomach bug, fainted & sustained a concussion per StateDept's Philippe Reines. Recovering @ home
Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi!!!
Updated Breaking: Nides, Burns to replace Hillary Clinton in Senate Benghazi testimony Thurs.— POLITICO (@politico) December 15, 2012
| 725 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:20:36am |
re: #722 William Barnett-Lewis
There's a hell of a lot of fear out there already. Do you really want to play into it?
Paranoia.
Thank you NRA!
| 726 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:21:15am |
re: #713 stabby
If we can detect GPS signals from earth, we can free up a band like that to detect guns.
GPS is entirely different from RFID in so many ways it's difficult to count. If you want to make the proposal we chip every gun with a GPS tag, fine, but that will require an active power source on every gun, transmitting constantly.
| 727 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:21:19am |
re: #715 Obdicut
We have a massive system of cell phone detectors.
We only need to place them all around public buildings.
For a while there was an alternate high speed, low latency computer wifi-like network in the bay area. They hung repeaters from lamp posts. Even a small company can do stuff
And the result was much better than cell broadband.
| 728 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:21:28am |
re: #717 dragonfire1981
I'm not a gun expert but I was under the impression it was relatively easy to convert a semi-automatic weapon to a full auto weapon, thus rendering any bans on such weapons effectively moot.
It is quite hard.
| 729 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:21:30am |
re: #718 stabby
It would require some massive phase in.
And in 20 years the problem would be much better.
Considering all but one of my guns are 50+ years old, it would take ever so much longer than you realize I think. Guns, unlike cars, have never been built with planned obsolescence.
| 730 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:21:51am |
re: #727 stabby
We have a massive system of cell phone detectors.
Cell phones have active batteries. Please start listening.
| 731 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:22:33am |
re: #726 Obdicut
No, my point was:
In an otherwise unused band, very small signals can be detected from very far away.
The engineering is possible.
| 732 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:23:16am |
re: #715 Obdicut
It's unworkable. Completely. RFID is easy to block. Any sort of radiation that is safe is going to be easy to block. You'd need a massive network of detectors, including on every window. It won't work.
I know RFID technology and the most effective way to block the signal is to place it inside metal. That's why on metal you always place it on the outside so it is effective.
| 733 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:23:25am |
re: #730 Obdicut
I believe that a non-active system could be designed to detect very long distances. It only has to be able to send very little data.
| 734 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:25:18am |
re: #731 stabby
No, my point was:
In an otherwise unused band, very small signals can be detected from very far away.
The engineering is possible.
You are comparing passive things with active things, and you are refusing to understand the difference.
Cell phones, GPS-- these actively transmit. They have power sources. RFID chips passively are scanned (except for a few cases, which also require power sources).
Furthermore, any such signal would be blockable by a simple swatch of fabric wrapped around the gun.
Looking for whizz-bang solutions is foolish. There's some technological role that can help but it's not something as simple as "We'll just track all the guns all the time" or "we'll build a foolproof gun-detection system".
| 735 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:25:53am |
Four adults killed in Benghazi and right wing politicizes it endlessly. Twenty kids slaughtered in CT and right wing tells us to shut up.— Roger Simon (@politicoroger) December 15, 2012
| 736 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:26:02am |
re: #733 stabby
I believe that a non-active system could be designed to detect very long distances. It only has to be able to send very little data.
What do you base this belief in? Any sort of knowledge of electronics or expertise with them?
Can you give an example of passive systems being detected from a very long distance? The current record for a RFID chip's detection is something like 70 feet.
| 737 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:26:14am |
Remember when stores used to tag every item and put detectors at every entrance.
Shop lifting still happened.
There is always around around the rules and obstacles if someone is determined.
| 738 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:26:24am |
re: #725 Varek Raith
Paranoia.
Thank you NRA!
Agreed. So what do you do for real?
Put in mandatory training in high school for starters. Get serious about mental health status & NICS. Move towards licensing new gun owners after about a generation & work on changing the culture in the meantime. And don't tie what you own to the license (your DL isn't tied to your car after all) to assuage the fear of confiscation.
| 739 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:28:04am |
re: #738 William Barnett-Lewis
Agreed. So what do you do for real?
Put in mandatory training in high school for starters. Get serious about mental health status & NICS. Move towards licensing new gun owners after about a generation & work on changing the culture in the meantime. And don't tie what you own to the license (your DL isn't tied to your car after all) to assuage the fear of confiscation.
Thank you. I"d love to hear more ideas bantered around instead of propaganda and personalities.
| 740 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:28:04am |
re: #738 William Barnett-Lewis
Agreed. So what do you do for real?
Put in mandatory training in high school for starters. Get serious about mental health status & NICS. Move towards licensing new gun owners after about a generation & work on changing the culture in the meantime. And don't tie what you own to the license (your DL isn't tied to your car after all) to assuage the fear of confiscation.
It'll never happen though.
The RW won't let it.
| 741 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:28:27am |
re: #732 A Man for all Seasons
We might have to think carefully about how to design such a system using novel technology.
It's an engineering problem.
heh you could make guns neutron emitters and detect radiation but people would object to that
| 742 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:28:41am |
re: #739 Holidays are Family Fun Time
Thank you. I"d love to hear more ideas bantered around instead of propaganda and personalities.
Huh, I'm spreading propaganda?
Or did I just stupidly misread your post?
| 744 |
Targetpractice Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:30:05am |
re: #737 Holidays are Family Fun Time
Remember when stores used to tag every item and put detectors at every entrance.
Shop lifting still happened.
There is always around around the rules and obstacles if someone is determined.
True, but the more obstacles you put in the way, the more determined one has to be to see it through. If you have to engage in a great deal of work for little reward, you're more likely to give up in discouragement.
| 745 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:30:29am |
re: #741 stabby
"Novel technology". Yeah. So you've gone from 'the engineering is possible' to, "We'll have to invent a ton of shit".
| 746 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:30:59am |
Stores can't have long range tags. They have thousands of tags and don't WANT to detect them all.
| 747 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:31:39am |
re: #733 stabby
I believe that a non-active system could be designed to detect very long distances. It only has to be able to send very little data.
Another thing about RFID tags is that by their very nature it's very easy to induce too much current and burn them out. Takes less than one second at full power in a microwave.
| 748 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:32:01am |
re: #741 stabby
We might have to think carefully about how to design such a system using novel technology.
It's an engineering problem.
heh you could make guns neutron emitters and detect radiation but people would object to that
We could also use those resources to invent an non-lethal weapon a civilian can use for reliable self-defence. That would solve a lot of issues, I think.
I want my Star-Trek Phaser. gosh darnit! :)
| 749 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:32:19am |
re: #747 goddamnedfrank
Another thing about RFID tags is that by their very nature it's very easy to induce too much current and burn them out. Takes less than one second at full power in a microwave.
RFID implants for all gun owners!
//
| 750 |
Stanghazi Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:32:24am |
re: #724 wrenchwench
Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi!!!
[Embedded content]
Yep, Benghazi is baaaaaack! No nic change in my future.
| 751 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:33:16am |
re: #746 stabby
Stores can't have long range tags. They have thousands of tags and don't WANT to detect them all.
You simply remove the Tag before leaving the store and no alarm go off.
I understand the frustration of making guns safer
| 752 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:34:21am |
re: #742 Varek Raith
Huh, I'm spreading propaganda?
Or did I just stupidly misread your post?
I think it's just the idea I was trying to formulate proposals that might get political traction rather than knee jerk left or right, not your comments in particular.
Perhaps it wouldn't pass. But as a lefty who owns guns I have an interest in finding practical ways to keep people safe short of having "obama's trying to take my guns!" being the cassus belli of a second civil war
| 753 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:35:04am |
re: #742 Varek Raith
Huh, I'm spreading propaganda?
Or did I just stupidly misread your post?
I think a lot of people are very frustrated and still venting. According to McSpiff I was very misinformed above, so also am not immune. Personal beliefs have to be reexamined.
Instead of pointing blame, I'd like to seem more cooperation in finding solutions.
WE can rant about the NRA or the ACLU or whatever, it's not going to get us anywhere.
| 754 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:35:13am |
re: #747 goddamnedfrank
Another thing about RFID tags is that by their very nature it's very easy to induce too much current and burn them out. Takes less than one second at full power in a microwave.
plus you can put one of those sticky magnets like on your fridge over the chip and it blocks the signal..
Magnets..How do they work?
/
| 755 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:35:24am |
re: #747 goddamnedfrank
Another thing about RFID tags is that by their very nature it's very easy to induce too much current and burn them out. Takes less than one second at full power in a microwave.
RFID tags are only good when you have complete control over the RFID tag. Otherwise, they're some of the most easily defeatable technology ever.
I mean, what is the perfect scenario? Let's say we use a constantly-firing GPS device embedded in the stock.
This asshole, knowing it's there, digs it out and leaves it at home as he goes to the school to shoot people.
If we try to make it fire off a warning if it's disturbed, we'll have a zillion false reports, and there'll still be a way to defeat it.
| 757 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:36:15am |
re: #753 Holidays are Family Fun Time
"ranting" about the NRA may get us to the point where rational gun-owners realize the NRA is making this into a 'people with guns' and 'people without guns' struggle, and that's very bad for gun owners.
| 758 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:36:28am |
re: #751 A Man for all Seasons
You simply remove the Tag before leaving the store and no alarm go off.
I understand the frustration of making guns safer
I"ve actually been the person in the store that puts those RFID stickers on the product. They are pretty useless unless they are hidden inside tamper-proof packaging.
| 759 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:36:36am |
re: #753 Holidays are Family Fun Time
Well, unless we deal with the NRA convincing a huge number of Americans that any gun control is a gun grab...
Well, nothing will get done.
| 760 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:36:46am |
re: #756 stabby
make removing or burning out the tag a crime.
shrug?
Yeah. So this guy who just murdered 22 kids, he'd totally be deterred because, gosh, he could get arrested for burning out the tag.
Brilliant.
| 761 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:37:52am |
And the reason I have this knee jerk reation is simple.
This has been going on for decades. Every time there is a massacre like this we say, "We must do something".
And nothing ever gets done.
I'm tired of it.
| 762 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:39:08am |
re: #756 stabby
make removing or burning out the tag a crime.
shrug?
Owning certain firearms is already a crime. Seems not to have done much good. So why waste more resources on inventing laws that can't be realistically enforced?
Making laws without enforcement funds and personal and procedure is just a feel-good measure.
| 763 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:39:53am |
One of my points was that if removing the tag is illegal, then police have a way to find evidence of intent to use a gun for a crime before the crime is committed.
Hell maybe police could carry radar devices that can see NORMAL guns. Feds have scary shit like that now. THEY could detect an unchipped gun just walking by.
They fucking have devices that can see through walls.
Heh the military has stuff that's classified that can see through he ground.
Remember the Israeli attack on osarik? They had missiles that could navigate through underground tunnels.
| 764 |
Ming Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:40:15am |
re: #613 Our Precious Bodily Fluids
I wonder why the NRA doesn't also propose doing away with vehicle licensing, registration, pre-licensing driving tests, mandatory liability insurance, different types of requirements for different types of vehicles (e.g., 18-wheeler vs. motorcycle vs. passenger car), annual safety inspections...
And how about all the various ways you can fuck up and have your license removed? Driving drunk is a big one, but so is shirking your insurance responsibility. It's also frowned upon to drive around at 100MPH in a truck with no brakes and no turn signals.
We all live this way without feeling like we're living in a totalitarian hellhole.
Excellent point! I agree 100%.
| 765 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:41:07am |
re: #759 Varek Raith
Well, unless we deal with the NRA convincing a huge number of Americans that any gun control is a gun grab...
Well, nothing will get done.
I agree, grass-roots gun nuts need to challenge the NRA. I think I worded that much better in an above post. Sorry, I'm getting tired and the dogs say I need my nap.
| 766 |
b_sharp Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:41:23am |
re: #715 Obdicut
It's unworkable. Completely. RFID is easy to block. Any sort of radiation that is safe is going to be easy to block. You'd need a massive network of detectors, including on every window. It won't work.
Put the detectors into phones.
| 767 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:42:10am |
re: #760 Obdicut
No, the point is that you give law enforcement laws that let them put people away for preparing for a crime. It's how they get terrorists.
| 768 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:42:47am |
re: #756 stabby
make removing or burning out the tag a crime.
shrug?
And now we're back full-circle at the point where someone points out that there's literally nothing more illegal than shooting up an elementary school and killing a bunch of kids.
| 769 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:43:23am |
re: #766 b_sharp
ever think about why congress mandated that all phones have gps devices.
The "for the user's safety" argument doesn't really sound likely does it?
| 770 |
Varek Raith Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:43:29am |
re: #765 Holidays are Family Fun Time
I agree, grass-roots gun nuts need to challenge the NRA. I think I worded that much better in an above post. Sorry, I'm getting tired and the dogs say I need my nap.
I apologize for being rather aggressive.
| 772 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:44:14am |
re: #760 Obdicut
Yeah. So this guy who just murdered 22 kids, he'd totally be deterred because, gosh, he could get arrested for burning out the tag.
Brilliant.
Execute him!!11ty!!
Oh, wait, that didn't deter him either...
| 774 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:45:07am |
re: #761 Varek Raith
And the reason I have this knee jerk reation is simple.
This has been going on for decades. Every time there is a massacre like this we say, "We must do something".
And nothing ever gets done.
I'm tired of it.
I'm curious as to how man people have been saved by defending themselves with a legal gun as opposed to how many have been killed/murdered by legal guns.
| 775 |
Skip Intro Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:46:10am |
re: #689 stabby
I think shooting actual guns probably correlates to gun violence a lot more than playing call of duty.
I'm not so sure, since doing a mass killing is only a one time ride. Something makes a person want to become famous for doing this; I'm just curious what it might be.
| 776 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:46:27am |
I think the practicality is unworkable. Unless we are going spend tons of resources on building-to-building searches (which would first be tied-up in federal court for years) we can't begin to control guns. The sheer number in this country is difficult to conceive.
Unlike cars, guns are not taxed yearly, there is no dedicated method of recording them. And trying to would only make for a longer day in court.
What I've never understood is why so many are manufactured (I know, they will sell). It's not like they wear -out and have to be replaced. But then again, I was raised from an archaic mindset.
While I totally understand the *need* for 10 pairs of black pumps, I don't understand the *need* for 10 shotguns.
| 777 |
jaunte Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:47:20am |
re: #774 Gus
I'm curious as to how man people have been saved by defending themselves with a legal gun as opposed to how many have been killed/murdered by legal guns.
There you go with that empiricism stuff again.
| 778 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:48:12am |
re: #774 Gus
I'm curious as to how man people have been saved by defending themselves with a legal gun as opposed to how many have been killed/murdered by legal guns.
That data is not collected, so we don't know. There is no check-box on police reports for self-defense of any kind, so the data is not tabulated by the FBI or CDC. There is, however a box for criminal use of firearms, so that data is recorded.
This bothers me a great deal. WE cannot make informed decisions and effective policy with out accurate data.
| 779 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:49:15am |
I like my ideas the best..Some states require gun trigger locks on guns so stealing or kids playing with them is useless.
In Indiana we hired off-duty cops. Every school up to college should have a real policeman on the grounds. It only cost 300 bucks a week and parents would agree to pay the little extra to provide real security for their kids.
If you are a gunman pulling up with a cop car parked outside you'd probably be less likely to try to go inside. Most of shooters are cowards that prey on the weak and unprotected then kill themselves.
| 780 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:49:33am |
re: #774 Gus
I'm curious as to how man people have been saved by defending themselves with a legal gun as opposed to how many have been killed/murdered by legal guns.
The numbers have proven, essentially, impossible to crunch because most successful defenses go unreported. A know a gentleman who averted an armed robbery by two people the other day by making it clear he was armed. No shots. No Police report. Becuase there was no crime.
| 781 |
Gus Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:50:10am |
re: #777 jaunte
There you go with that empiricism stuff again.
It's sort of like that blood of tyrants cartoon which I seem to have mislocated.
| 782 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:50:22am |
re: #763 stabby
One of my points was that if removing the tag is illegal, then police have a way to find evidence of intent to use a gun for a crime before the crime is committed.
But the person can just do it right before they commit the crime. The idea doesn't work.
Hell maybe police could carry radar devices that can see NORMAL guns. Feds have scary shit like that now. THEY could detect an unchipped gun just walking by.
Constantly broadcasting enough radiation to check everyone constantly would be extremely expensive, power-intensive, would cause shitloads of intereference, and be a violation of privacy rights in all sorts of ways.
They fucking have devices that can see through walls.
That's nice, bro.
Heh the military has stuff that's classified that can see through he ground.
Cool story.
Remember the Israeli attack on osarik? They had missiles that could navigate through underground tunnels.
Your plan is still unworkable and I have no idea why you're clinging to it. Is it really that hard to accept that defeating stuff like this is pretty easy and try to come up with an actually workable system?
| 783 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:51:22am |
re: #779 A Man for all Seasons
yeah.
America has lost all her manufacturing jobs.
But eventually we'll all work as armed guards at a school or mall or on the bus.
At least that would work perfectly
| 784 |
danarchy Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:52:06am |
re: #779 A Man for all Seasons
Most of shooters are cowards that prey on the weak and unprotected then kill themselves.
This makes me wonder why they all seem to wear body armor if they are going to off themselves as soon as the cops show up anyway.
| 785 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:52:26am |
re: #782 Obdicut
Constantly broadcasting enough radiation to check everyone constantly would be extremely expensive, power-intensive, would cause shitloads of intereference, and be a violation of privacy rights in all sorts of ways.
who said you check everyone constantly?
| 786 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:52:26am |
re: #767 stabby
No, the point is that you give law enforcement laws that let them put people away for preparing for a crime. It's how they get terrorists.
Yeah, that is tough to do legally. We are judged (on Earth anyway) by our actions, not intentions. No laws about thought crimes here.
I think there is a clear set of actions that identifies terrorists. Not so much someone who is going to commit a mass shooting for emotional or mental health reasons.
| 787 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:53:10am |
re: #769 stabby
ever think about why congress mandated that all phones have gps devices.
The "for the user's safety" argument doesn't really sound likely does it?
And there are those who would say that the GPS in cell phones is not constitutional. I can't imagine the uproar if it were tried with firearms.
| 788 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:53:40am |
re: #785 stabby
some of those things work by not "lots of radiation" but by "super short bursts of radiation"
| 789 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:53:48am |
re: #770 Varek Raith
I apologize for being rather aggressive.
It's all good. I can empathize with the outrage.
| 790 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:54:04am |
re: #783 stabby
But eventually we'll all work as armed guards at a school or mall or on the bus
What part of "off duty cops" didn't you get?
Here in Georgia many schools have hired retired cops/ military people that don't want to just sit and collect their pensions and do gardening all day
| 791 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:55:15am |
re: #785 stabby
Constantly broadcasting enough radiation to check everyone constantly would be extremely expensive, power-intensive, would cause shitloads of intereference, and be a violation of privacy rights in all sorts of ways.
who said you check everyone constantly?
I'm sorry, dude, I can't follow your ever-shifting goalposts-on-a-greyhound logic. You want the police to just spot-check scanning people in random places? And you think this will achieve... what?
Why do you keep clinging to this idea?
| 792 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:56:34am |
re: #791 Obdicut
You want the police to just spot-check scanning people in random places? And you think this will achieve... what?
Maybe he has stock in Reynolds Aluminum !!!
//
| 793 |
stabby Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:56:53am |
re: #791 Obdicut
Solving engineering problems is a constant process of moving the goalposts.
That's how you solve problems in the real world. You adapt and adapt to your adaptations and iterate over it till you have a solution that is possible and comes closest to solving the problem workably
| 794 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:57:03am |
re: #788 stabby
some of those things work by not "lots of radiation" but by "super short bursts of radiation"
So now you're claiming that you do have expertise in this area? Can you explain why you were relating RFID and GPS earlier, then?
And sure, they can work by 'short burst of radiation'. That doesn't mean that the radiation doesn't have to be strong. The farther the distance, the stronger it has to be, too. In addition, 'short bursts' means that there's plenty of times it's not detecting anything, and I still don't get what your spot-checks are supposed to achieve.
Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Let me know if you are, because it's boring.
| 796 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:58:18am |
re: #779 A Man for all Seasons
I like my ideas the best..Some states require gun trigger locks on guns so stealing or kids playing with them is useless.
In Indiana we hired off-duty cops. Every school up to college should have a real policeman on the grounds. It only cost 300 bucks a week and parents would agree to pay the little extra to provide real security for their kids.
If you are a gunman pulling up with a cop car parked outside you'd probably be less likely to try to go inside. Most of shooters are cowards that prey on the weak and unprotected then kill themselves.
I'm so doubtful about trigger locks. It's just a parent's knowledge of how resourceful kids can be.
I'd rather they be educated about firearms (appropriate for the age group) and the mystery taken away from guns. Once again, the only program I found for my son was the NRA's Eddie Eagle program.
When he was older, he went to the range. Then started the Olympic Training/NRA program for .22 and ended-up on the rifle range at school. Now, the idea of shooting sound like "work" to him. No glory or testosterone power feelings at all. Guns are work to him, they have to be cleaned, handling and transporting procedures must be followed. Much easier to play a video game.
| 797 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:59:27am |
re: #784 danarchy
This makes me wonder why they all seem to wear body armor if they are going to off themselves as soon as the cops show up anyway.
Because that's part of what makes them feel powerful. Armor, gun, Yeah!
No logic involved.
| 798 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:59:54am |
re: #793 stabby
And likewise the problem of 'how do I defeat detection method X' evolves constantly as well.
The only place that detection systems work at all is through narrow chokepoints, like in airports. Even then, they fail most of the time-- the FBI, whenever it tests the TSA, succeeds.
You are now just waving your hands and saying we'll solve the problem because science is awesome. Science is awesome, but that doesn't mean that everything is feasible. It's not feasible to build an anti-ballistic missile system that could reliably work against multiple launches, or, probably, even single launches. It's not feasible to create a 'gun detector' that will be undefeatable and reliably show when someone is carrying a gun around for an illegal rather than legal purpose.
| 799 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:00:46pm |
re: #795 stabby
That's cool. So, what's the relationship between looking through walls and using detection systems to reliably find guns that are going to be used for an illegal purpose?
| 800 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:01:16pm |
re: #683 Holidays are Family Fun Time
So, instead of being snarky, simply say that. Give me a place to start my research for correct information.
Your knowledge seems to be up-to-date, where do you get your info. Share and cooperate if you are really interested in educating.
An hour later . . . . . .???
| 801 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:03:09pm |
re: #800 Holidays are Family Fun Time
Oh, really? Somalia is a failed state with no real working government, so there's no real restriction on guns other than whatever local guy who has the most guns and other guys with guns says it is.
| 802 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:08:07pm |
re: #801 Obdicut
Oh, really? Somalia is a failed state with no real working government, so there's no real restriction on guns other than whatever local guy who has the most guns and other guys with guns says it is.
Good point. Thanks. Of course, it seems obvious now, but as I've stated, my mind has not been concentrated on this subject recently, I've been focusing on Reproductive Rights issues.
I like to research. When I admit upfront my research may be wrong our out-of-date and then get a snarky response with no indicate of HOW my information is wrong or WHERE to find accurate information, I see that as an attempt to 1) me me look stupid and 2) make the responder feel superior. Neither of which does anything to SOLVE THE PROBLEM. Which, I assume is the goal.
I'm not afraid of looking stupid, what I can't stand is when I ask for help and am ignored.
| 803 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:09:06pm |
re: #802 Holidays are Family Fun Time
I think the bafflement came because Somalia has become a watchword for an anarchic state.
| 804 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:11:00pm |
re: #803 Obdicut
I think the bafflement came because Somalia has become a watchword for an anarchic state.
So, I'm out of touch on the subject. I admit it. I'm human, no shame in that.
I appreciate any help I can get.
So why ignore someone who obviously needs to be pointed in the right direction?
| 805 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:13:22pm |
re: #804 Holidays are Family Fun Time
So, I'm out of touch on the subject. I admit it. I'm human, no shame in that.
I appreciate any help I can get.
So why ignore someone who obviously needs to be pointed in the right direction?
Perhaps the one giving the snarky response isn't positive of their knowledge of the subject either, and after getting into it with you didn't want that to be exposed
| 806 |
b_sharp Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:14:38pm |
re: #804 Holidays are Family Fun Time
So, I'm out of touch on the subject. I admit it. I'm human, no shame in that.
I appreciate any help I can get.
So why ignore someone who obviously needs to be pointed in the right direction?
Wait, what? I thought you were alien.
All this time I thought I was friends with an ET. I was about to ask for a lift off this planet.
| 807 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:14:44pm |
re: #804 Holidays are Family Fun Time
I can't speak for anyone else, but even I thought you were being sarcastic or making some strange, backhanded point, because I assume you knew that Somalia was a failed state. It's not a big deal, now that it's clarified.
| 808 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:16:09pm |
re: #806 b_sharp
I was about to ask for a lift off this planet.
Bend over
My leg and foot are registered propulsion devices!!
//
| 809 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:17:06pm |
I feel like an alien sometimes.
| 810 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:18:23pm |
re: #809 Holidays are Family Fun Time
I feel like an alien sometimes.
To feel alien is to be human.
DEEP
| 811 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:18:56pm |
| 812 |
Holidays are Family Fun Time Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:21:22pm |
re: #807 Obdicut
I can't speak for anyone else, but even I thought you were being sarcastic or making some strange, backhanded point, because I assume you knew that Somalia was a failed state. It's not a big deal, now that it's clarified.
Yes, I guess I could be guity of such things in the past . . . . .
I'm going to take my much needed nap.
Have fun upstairs.
| 813 |
Shiplord Kirel Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:02:06pm |
| 814 |
Cap'n Magic Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:03:03pm |
re: #178 JAFO
Thanks for the note-I kept wondering what the / meant in this social sphere.
| 815 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:03:51pm |
re: #692 Varek Raith
I routinely glass planets.
GTA? Play it a lot.
Watch violent animes a lot.
Don't see me picking up a gun and killing people.
You'll just press a button and vaporize the planet.
/
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