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Instapundit Says: The Solution Is More Guns, Fewer Gun-Free Zones

Deranged
Wingnuts • Views: 31,007

Right wing blogger Glenn Reynolds jumps out in the front of the pro-gun propaganda effort with a piece for USA Today attacking Gun-Free Zones.

Given that gun-free zones seem to be a magnet for mass shooters, maybe we should be working to shrink or eliminate them, rather than expand them. As they say, if it saves just one life, it’s worth it.

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816 comments

1 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:03:29pm

This is now the standard mantra from today's reactionary right. It's part of their religion.

2 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:05:21pm

Does he want to arm the kindergarten students, or the union-thug kindergarten teachers?

3 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:05:25pm
As they say, if it saves just one life, it’s worth it.

Apparently that doesn't apply if the solution is to place stricter controls on gun ownership

4 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:06:29pm

re: #2 jaunte

Does he want to arm the kindergarten students, or the union-thug kindergarten teachers?

Yes.

5 Petero1818  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:07:21pm

Or it is possible that these zones could have armed police or armed guard on duty during school hours rather than rely on untrained teens packing heat in class. Because what could possibly go wrong with a bunch of 19 year olds and 20 year olds carrying.

6 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:07:43pm

I'm just waiting to hear about whether or not this 20 year old was raised by a single mother.

7 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:07:54pm

Instapundit is a fucking moron.

8 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:12:18pm

re: #7 b_sharp

Instapundit is a fucking moron.

Indeed.

9 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:12:34pm

re: #7 b_sharp

Instapundit is a fucking moron.

He has a website dedicated to him. Google Instaputz (just fyi it's run by an ex-FDL guy, don't wanna upset anybody, just figured I'd point it out)

10 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:15:22pm

re: #9 Ghost of Tom Joad

He has a website dedicated to him. Google Instaputz (just fyi it's run by an ex-FDL guy, don't wanna upset anybody, just figured I'd point it out)

I'd rather not. Shitheads are only interesting as far as I want to piss on them.

11 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:16:11pm

Doubtless Mr Reynolds and the NRA will graciously be willing to pay for both the firearms training and the ongoing liability coverage for every school with armed teachers.

12 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:16:14pm

Need some help playing whack-a-troll. It's a decent way to discharge anger.

13 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:17:59pm

Yes Glenn. Gun free zone in a kindergarten with a perp who allegedly had access and was armed with a Bushmaster .223, a Glock, and a Sig-Sauer. Yep, should be ready for that at your average grade school any day.

14 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:19:21pm

You know what we need to bring back?

Duels.

/

15 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:21:21pm

re: #13 Gus

Yes Glenn. Gun free zone in a kindergarten with a perp who allegedly had access and was armed with a Bushmaster .223, a Glock, and a Sig-Sauer. Yep, should be ready for that at your average grade school any day.

Wasn't he also wearing a vest?

16 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:21:46pm

re: #14 dragonath

You know what we need to bring back?

Duels.

/

Pissing matches that only involve piss.

17 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:23:25pm

re: #15 b_sharp

Wasn't he also wearing a vest?

I was thinking that but didn't want to check.

18 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:24:10pm

re: #17 Gus

I was thinking that but didn't want to check.

Yes, he was.

19 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:24:22pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

Need some help playing whack-a-troll. It's a decent way to discharge anger.

Never mind. Charles just sent 'Uncle Fester' to the great beyond. To the newly banned hater I say:

Skip to around 9:00 for the key part.

20 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:25:11pm

I'd be open for the principal and the VP being side arm certified.

21 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:25:21pm

re: #17 Gus

I was thinking that but didn't want to check.

Panicked teacher with a gun locked in a desk, taught to shoot for the largest mass. How will that work again?

When will these people join us in reality?

22 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:25:44pm
23 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:26:42pm

re: #22 jaunte

[Embedded content]

On point! That made me laugh and I'm not even a veteran.

24 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:27:07pm

Teacher. Gun slinger.

25 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:27:12pm

re: #22 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Ideologues have trouble with reality.

26 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:27:46pm

re: #24 Gus

Teacher. Gun slinger.

Substitute Teacher: Have Gun, Will Travel.

27 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:28:04pm

re: #22 jaunte

[Embedded content]

I can see no negative repercussions to putting a loaded firearm in every classroom in the US.
///

28 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:28:12pm

This wasn't your average school shooting though. Remember. This was not a student driven crime.

29 Petero1818  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:29:12pm

re: #28 Gus

This wasn't your average school shooting though. Remember. This was not a student driven crime.

Hard to believe there is an "average" school shooting but I get what you are saying.

30 celticdragon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:29:25pm
Given that gun-free zones seem to be a magnet for mass shooters, maybe we should be working to shrink or eliminate them, rather than expand them. As they say, if it saves just one life, it’s worth it.

So let me get this straight: The "Ole Perfessor" thinks that while employed here in NC as a substitute teacher dealing with earth science and US history, I also need to have a frakking Kalashnikov behind the desk and suitable tactical training.

While I am teaching. Teaching children, no less.

Got it.

What. The. Fuck.

How do you even formulate a response to this without mirthless laughter? It's like talking to a Flat Earth conspiracy nut who has been hitting PCP.

31 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:29:58pm

re: #20 Gus

I'd be open for the principal and the VP being side arm certified.

I'd rather it just be a trained security guard or cop stationed there. Hell, even the grade schools around here have full-time security teams. Might as well train them, or hire ex-cops or something. I'd rather a trained professional than a principal packing heat. I think that sends the wrong message to the kids (though at this point...cat out of bag).

32 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:30:18pm

re: #29 Petero1818

Hard to believe there is an "average" school shooting but I get what you are saying.

Yeah. The perp was from the outside. The rest is insane.

33 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:30:19pm

re: #22 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Yeah, that's what I love, they bitch up a storm about the cost of funding schools and would sooner pull their own wisdom teeth with rusty pliers than raise taxes to better fund schools...but think we need to take on the cost and liability of arming teachers to be low-grade security guards. Not to mention the legal headache when the first teacher draws on a student due to a false alarm. Let's take a second to imagine the joy of reading "Teacher Shoots Student: Claims Student Was Armed."

34 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:30:41pm

re: #31 Ghost of Tom Joad

I'd rather it just be a trained security guard or cop stationed there. Hell, even the grade schools around here have full-time security teams. Might as well train them, or hire ex-cops or something. I'd rather a trained professional than a principal packing heat. I think that sends the wrong message to the kids (though at this point...cat out of bag).

Good jobs for vets.

35 Petero1818  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:31:02pm

re: #30 celticdragon

We can lament the fact that its not surprising how few wonderful people want to be teachers given the shitty pay, lack of respect, and of course the need to carry firearms.

36 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:31:19pm

And now for some appropriate music while I grill 'Uncle Fester's gamey troll carcass:

37 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:32:19pm

re: #33 Targetpractice

"Florida Student Shoots Teacher: Claims He Felt Threatened, Was "Standing His Ground."

38 Stanghazi  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:32:27pm

re: #20 Gus

I'd be open for the principal and the VP being side arm certified.

So, in order to be a principal you have to love kids, selflessly give over 40 hrs per week, and agree to arm yourself.

Thats more crazy to fight crazy.

39 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:32:31pm

This is getting weirder.

40 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:33:41pm

There were some other news stories from today (or yesterday) that I have open in tabs that have been sort of shoved aside for the major story of the day, but here is one that sort of touches the whole idiocy brought forward by Huckabee and company earlier.

Survey | Americans More Likely to Attribute Increasingly Severe Weather to Climate Change, Not End Times

Nearly 6-in-10 (58%) Americans agree that God is in control of everything that happens in the world, while nearly 4-in-10 (38%) disagree.

Nearly 9-in-10 (89%) minority Christians, roughly three-quarters (76%) of white evangelical Protestants, 6-in-10 (60%) Catholics, and a slim majority (51%) of white mainline Protestants agree that God is in control of everything that happens in the world. However, only 3-in-10 (30%) religiously unaffiliated Americans agree with this statement, while 6-in-10 (60%) disagree.

[...]

Nearly 6-in-10 (57%) Americans agree that the political choices being made by Americans these days are moving the U.S. away from God, while more than one-third (36%) disagree.

Nearly 9-in-10 (89%) white evangelical Protestants and 53% of Catholics agree that Americans’ political decisions are moving the country away from God. Only roughly one-third (34%) of religiously unaffiliated Americans agree.

There's a lot more to write about in that poll release, but I pulled out the above because it brings up the theodicy problem, to which Huckabee and Fischer have no good answer.

41 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:34:10pm

re: #35 Petero1818

We can lament the fact that its not surprising how few wonderful people want to be teachers given the shitty pay, lack of respect, and of course the need to carry firearms.

Ugh, makes me think of my grandparents when they'd talk about school "they used to be able to hit us with rulers and sticks back in my day." In 60 years, our children will be telling their children "back in my day, the teacher could shoot you in the leg for talking during a lesson."

42 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:34:20pm

re: #34 Gus

Good jobs for vets.

That idea came up earlier but it's not, not really. Infantry or even MP's are very different with extreamly different response profiles that what is required by police or security. Having been Infantry, I know I'd not be a good fit.

43 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:34:21pm

re: #38 Stanghazi

So, in order to be a principal you have to love kids, selflessly give over 40 hrs per week, and agree to arm yourself.

Thats more crazy to fight crazy.

Optional. Not as a requirement.

44 celticdragon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:34:41pm

re: #42 William Barnett-Lewis

That idea came up earlier but it's not, not really. Infantry or even MP's are very different with extreamly different response profiles that what is required by police or security. Having been Infantry, I know I'd not be a good fit.

Good point.

45 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:35:23pm

re: #20 Gus

I'd be open for the principal and the VP being side arm certified.

Hey, here's a solution: let's just get rid of public schools, give parents vouchers, and let the parents send their children to God-fearin' schools of their choice.

See how easy that was?

46 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:35:45pm

re: #33 Targetpractice

Yeah, that's what I love, they bitch up a storm about the cost of funding schools and would sooner pull their own wisdom teeth with rusty pliers than raise taxes to better fund schools...but think we need to take on the cost and liability of arming teachers to be low-grade security guards. Not to mention the legal headache when the first teacher draws on a student due to a false alarm. Let's take a second to imagine the joy of reading "Teacher Shoots Student: Claims Student Was Armed."

My problem with all of these fantasies of an armed society administering personal-serving-sized justice is people have shitty threat recognition. Stress and anger completely skew an individual's perception and capacity for attribution of intent. Biases in attribution makes the picture even fuzzier.

47 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:36:08pm

re: #41 Ghost of Tom Joad

Ugh, makes me think of my grandparents when they'd talk about school "they used to be able to hit us with rulers and sticks back in my day." In 60 years, our children will be telling their children "back in my day, the teacher could shoot you in the leg for talking during a lesson."

Yeah, that should go over well with the paranoid nutters who think public schools are indoctrination centers. "Daddy, when I tried to correct the teacher about the right of states to leave the Union, he flashed his gun at me and told me that I was wrong."

48 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:37:18pm

re: #45 freetoken

Hey, here's a solution: let's just get rid of public schools, give parents vouchers, and let the parents send their children to God-fearin' schools of their choice.

See how easy that was?

I'm weird in that I like to think of compromises.

49 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:38:20pm

Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America:

"Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered. This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting rid of gun bans in school zones. The only thing accomplished by gun free zones is to insure that mass murderers can slay more before they are finally confronted by someone with a gun."

50 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:38:52pm

re: #46 The Ghost of a Flea

My problem with all of these fantasies of an armed society administering personal-serving-sized justice is people have shitty threat recognition. Stress and anger completely skew an individual's perception and capacity for attribution of intent. Biases in attribution makes the picture even fuzzier.

Pretty much what would happen is every teacher would be turned into a paranoid nut, and at the slightest noise (let alone an actual attack), they're all going to rush out in a panic and wind up firing at each other.

51 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:39:41pm

And this is how you know that this one's different.

52 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:40:01pm

re: #49 jaunte

Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America:

Translation: We can't compete with the NRA by being sensible, so we're going to be just as deranged.

53 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:41:04pm

re: #52 Ghost of Tom Joad

It's as if they're all singing out of the same hymnbook.

54 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:41:24pm

re: #52 Ghost of Tom Joad

Translation: We can't compete with the NRA by being sensible, so we're going to be just as deranged.

GOA started with the mission statement to make the NRA look sane.

55 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:41:45pm

re: #51 Four More Tears

And this is how you know that this one's different.

[Embedded content]

The NRA must atone!

56 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:42:07pm

re: #46 The Ghost of a Flea

My problem with all of these fantasies of an armed society administering personal-serving-sized justice is people have shitty threat recognition. Stress and anger completely skew an individual's perception and capacity for attribution of intent. Biases in attribution makes the picture even fuzzier.

I think we've all lost track of the number of incidents in the local news where a cop made a bad call and shot a kid or an adult because they "looked" like they were brandishing a weapon. Difference is that we expect a cop to be trained to make such calls and when he makes a bad one, to be disciplined by the department. These nutters want teachers to take on the same responsibility, but without the training and with the understanding that if they make a bad call, the ones who will be judging them will be a jury of 12 parents who will want them to pay.

57 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:42:21pm

re: #49 jaunte

Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America:

Fucking GOA makes the NRA seem good again.

58 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:43:12pm

Highest incarceration rate.

59 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:43:23pm

School to prison pipeline.

60 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:43:28pm
61 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:43:44pm

In times like this the "media" can be of no help at all:

Glock: 'A favorite of mass shooters'

You'd think that a news-wire writer would both do better research and not trip over the meaning of statistics.

62 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:43:51pm

re: #42 William Barnett-Lewis

That idea came up earlier but it's not, not really. Infantry or even MP's are very different with extreamly different response profiles that what is required by police or security. Having been Infantry, I know I'd not be a good fit.

Just so. right after dinner I had occasion to read a Wayne LaPierre attack on Michael Bloomberg. I'm not a fan of Bloomberg, but LaPierre entirely mischaracterized Bloomberg's deciding not to ask for the National Guard after Hurricane Sandy: It wasn't that Bloomberg didn't think that the Guard couldn't competently patrol areas of the Outer Burroughs, it was that he understood that soldiers trained for duty in Iraq or Afghanistan are going to react to looters very differently than police. The Army's way of dealing with civil unrest is a lot heavier on force and lighter on persuasion than any American police department. Michael Bloomberg knows this and regarded the situation as not needed that level of force.

The NRA seriously needs a new leader, someone able to advocate without resort to insane hyperbole.

63 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:43:52pm

270,000,000 guns.

64 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:44:10pm

re: #45 freetoken

Hey, here's a solution: let's just get rid of public schools, give parents vouchers, and let the parents send their children to God-fearin' schools of their choice.

See how easy that was?

Turn around.

No, seriously turn around.

I'm going kick you in the butt.

Twice.

65 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:44:27pm

re: #63 Gus

270,000,000 guns.

314,000,000 people. We need more guns, no?

66 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:45:51pm

re: #34 Gus

Good jobs for vets.

My 82-year-old mom works part-time at a kindergarten as a "granny lady." I'm not certain what the rules are, but she doesn't even get minimum wage -- it's some kind of program that allows her to supplement her Social Security benefits; she gets a little extra money each month, and the school gets another part-time aide.

I see no logical reason why we couldn't do something similar with retired veterans.

67 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:45:51pm

re: #56 Targetpractice

I think we've all lost track of the number of incidents in the local news where a cop made a bad call and shot a kid or an adult because they "looked" like they were brandishing a weapon. Difference is that we expect a cop to be trained to make such calls and when he makes a bad one, to be disciplined by the department. These nutters want teachers to take on the same responsibility, but without the training and with the understanding that if they make a bad call, the ones who will be judging them will be a jury of 12 parents who will want them to pay.

I know I'm being grand guignol vulgar by saying this, but we might as well skip the foreplay of the GOA/NRA fantasy and just go straight to critically wounding a bunch of young black men.

68 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:46:34pm

re: #61 freetoken

In times like this the "media" can be of no help at all:

Glock: 'A favorite of mass shooters'

You'd think that a news-wire writer would both do better research and not trip over the meaning of statistics.

I'm not going to bother reading that. I'll trust your analysis.

69 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:47:03pm

re: #65 freetoken

314,000,000 people. We need more guns, no?

44,000,000 of them?

70 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:47:26pm

re: #61 freetoken

In times like this the "media" can be of no help at all:

Glock: 'A favorite of mass shooters'

You'd think that a news-wire writer would both do better research and not trip over the meaning of statistics.

The Glock is also used by many police departments and armies, including that of Iraq. It's far more a police officer's, soldier's and honest citizen's gun than a murderer's gun. Once again, we see the chance for a decent argument thrown away if favor of hyperbole.

71 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:47:42pm

re: #68 b_sharp

I'm not going to bother reading that. I'll trust your analysis.

It's just an amazingly shallow article with the usual misunderstandings. As if "Glock" is some magic power or something.

72 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:48:34pm

I have a question for the lizards--- do any of you remember a time when the NRA wasn't nuts? I've been told that it was a non-partisan group with a bit of a conservation focus before LaPierre came on the scene.

73 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:48:57pm

Compare this kind of proposal to the weapons control procedures used by the most heavily armed people in the world, the US military. Except in active combat zones, personal weapons are kept under lock and key in a unit arms room. When they are issued for range practice, parades, or field exercises, each serial number is carefully recorded together with the name and service number of the soldier receiving it. Each one has to be returned at the end of the issue period, individually by the recipient soldier, or all hell breaks loose; that is, the MPs will turn the post upside down until they find it. Even in an authorized issue, officers and NCOs attempt to make sure that no armed soldier is alone with a large number of the unarmed. If someone does go over the deep end, you want somebody around who can deal it with it at once. Privately owned firearms are allowed but they must be registered with the provost marshal. If you live in the barracks, they must be stored in the unit armory along with the issue weapons, and signed out through normal chain of command. In family quarters, they must be stored in accordance with regulations that can vary from post to post. They must be locked up securely while moving them to and from the post. You are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon on any military post, even if you are licensed by the state in which the post is located.

74 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:49:02pm

But you still think the movie "Django" is OK?

75 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:49:59pm

re: #66 BongCrodny

My mother used to do that years ago - be the "granny" in the classroom. It's to help teachers today because class sizes have gotten so big, and so many little ones come from situations that require them to have more time than a single teacher can give.

And yes, one thinks that perhaps retired police officers or retired military could have a similar program to have random guards for school systems.

76 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:50:05pm

re: #71 freetoken

It's just an amazingly shallow article with the usual misunderstandings. As if "Glock" is some magic power or something.

I assumed something like that.

77 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:50:26pm

re: #73 Shiplord Kirel

I suspect that's what the authors meant when they wrote "well-regulated."

78 Kronocide  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:52:10pm

re: #63 Gus

270,000,000 guns.

So what we need to reduce gun deaths is 489,000,000 guns.

MADness.

79 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:52:23pm

re: #72 dragonath

I have a question for the lizards- do any of you remember a time when the NRA wasn't nuts? I've been told that it was a non-partisan group with a bit conservation focus before LaPierre came on the scene..

Say what you want about Charlton Heston (and what Charles has posted about what he said has dropped my opinion of the man), but he was better able to inspire than LaPierre and relied less upon extreme statements.

It's not the positions that bother me, its just the over the top and ugly way they get argued. I think a calmer, saner nation discourse might actually make mass shootings less likely just by itself.

80 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:52:49pm

re: #78 Kronocide

So what we need to reduce gun deaths is 489,000,000 guns.

MADness.

[Bridge blows up.]

81 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:53:19pm

re: #72 dragonath

I have a question for the lizards- do any of you remember a time when the NRA wasn't nuts? I've been told that it was a non-partisan group with a bit conservation focus before LaPierre came on the scene..

At 33...no, I recall them as being dicks consistently. My earliest memories of NRA gun talk involve race baiting and fantasies of fighting the federal government.

Listening to NRA stuff for nigh-30 years led me to the conclusion that there's more to good gun ownership than safety training. If you're sneering at people who have fear or concerns about a lethal implement in their house or around their kids, you're not a good gun owner.

82 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:53:30pm

re: #73 Shiplord Kirel

Compare this kind of proposal to the weapons control procedures used by the most heavily armed people in the world, the US military. Except in active combat zones, personal weapons are kept under lock and key in a unit arms room. When they are issued for range practice, parades, or field exercises, each serial number is carefully recorded together with the name and service number of the soldier receiving it. Each one has to be returned at the end of the issue period, individually by the recipient soldier, or all hell breaks loose; that is, the MPs will turn the post upside down until they find it. Even in an authorized issue, officers and NCOs attempt to make sure that no armed soldier is alone with a large number of the unarmed. If someone does go over the deep end, you want somebody around who can deal it with it at once. Personal firearms are allowed but they must be registered with the provost marshal. If you live in the barracks, they must be stored in the unit armory along with the issue weapons, and signed out through normal chain of command. In family quarters, they must be stored in accordance with regulations that can vary from post to post. They must be locked up securely while moving them to and from the post. You are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon on any military post, even if you are licensed by the state in which the post is located.

Wingnut I mentioned earlier was going on about how teachers are armed in Israel and have taken down terrorists before. I decided to look it up and they're even more stringent than we are. How many gun owners in the US you think would submit to a mental health evaluation as part of determining if they can carry a firearm? Or would agree to only one handgun or, if they're active military, one rifle? And how many would agree with the idea that only those who have either are actively serving or have served should be allowed to own a gun?

83 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:53:31pm

re: #79 Dark_Falcon

Ever look at the 2nd Amend. Foundation?

84 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:55:04pm

This kind of reaction to this situation is similar to how we see poor threat analysis in any variety of situations.

There is a certain logic in responding to the massive focus that we see on these deaths, by a reaction that says let's just isolate this problem and find a solution. Let's arm everyone, and a shooter like this won't be able to take down so many people. You respond to the immediate threat.

What is missing is a measured response, that takes the time to think through the follow-on ramifications of arming everyone - more accidental shootings, more shootings done by the mentally ill, more suicides. In the end, any advantage gained by taking out a mass-shooter sooner would be negated by more gun-related deaths.

The poor analytical thinking crops up in many threat assessment situations, such as the illogic behind invading Iraq in response to 9/11.

85 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:55:35pm

Our security where I work is like airport security. And if you get by them you can't get through to the next level. Without authorization you get locked inside a hallway. But in Indiana we hired off-duty cops as supplementary security to guards. Cop cars parked in front provide incentive to cowards with guns. I think parents with children deserve security and would be willing to pay 200 dollars extra a school day for that comfort.

86 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:56:04pm

re: #72 dragonath

I have a question for the lizards--- do any of you remember a time when the NRA wasn't nuts? I've been told that it was a non-partisan group with a bit conservation focus before LaPierre came on the scene.

They went crazy in the Mid70's when at one of the conventions (Cleveland?) the radicals took over and threw the organization behind Reagan's first presidential run. Which is insane in itself, as Ronnie was very Pro-Gun Control.

My FiL - a union organizer, WWII Navy Vet and democrat - turned in his life memebership after they helped Ronnie get elected.

In the 70's I was taught rifle shooting by the NRA. That was at the tail end of their good days.

87 austin_blue  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:56:17pm

First off, my deepest sympathies to all of the families involved. I simply Can Not Imagine what that community is going through right now.

I'm pretty upset, and I read the "logic" of such opinions noted above and get more pissed.

The shooter had to be buzzed in through the front door, which was locked. But he was the son of a teacher employed at the school. Is she sick? Does he need something for her?

Buzzz...

And the slaughter was on.

I'm a gun owner. I've got a couple of rifles and a shotgun. None of them have a capacity, magazine, or clip that can hold more than five rounds. If I can't hit what I'm shooting at with five bullets, then the bear should eat me, the robber should kill me, or the public shooter should slaughter me.

Period.

I don't own handguns. Hate them. All they are good for is shooting people. Ditto for shortened assault weapons that fit nicely, unseen, under a pea coat.

Make the possession of any gun or bullet holder with a capacity of greater than five rounds a Federal crime with a minimum sentence of ten years. Buy back every piece of hardware that doesn't meet the requirement.

Want to keep something that doesn't meet the rule? Fine. We will treat every component like we do privately owned machine guns. You will be Federally registered and pay $250 for every component of every gun that doesn't pass muster.

If the nut cases want everyone to be armed, accommodate them by making available flintlock muzzle loaders so that they can form well regulated militias.

Now *that* is "Constitutional original intent" that no one can argue with.

//rant off

88 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:56:19pm

re: #72 dragonath

I have a question for the lizards--- do any of you remember a time when the NRA wasn't nuts? I've been told that it was a non-partisan group with a bit conservation focus before LaPierre came on the scene.

I was a member in the late 80s/90s (junior for part of it, I did a lot of shooting, some semi-competitive stuff). My recollection isn't all that great, but I know they've become very politically active in the past ~15 or so years, and at this point are nothing more than an extension of the Republican right-wing. LaPierre has pretty much steered them into nutter/conspiracy territory.

89 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:56:31pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

Blocked now! Thanks, Charles!

90 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:56:44pm

Rule number one! Thou shalt never blame Hollywood for taking part in the gun culture.

91 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:57:44pm

re: #84 Talking Point Detective

This kind of reaction to this situation is similar to how we see poor threat analysis in any variety of situations.

There is a certain logic in responding to the massive focus that we see on these deaths, by a reaction that says let's just isolate this problem and find a solution. Let's arm everyone, and a shooter like this won't be able to take down so many people. You respond to the immediate threat.

What is missing is a measured response, that takes the time to think through the follow-on ramifications of arming everyone - more accidental shootings, more shootings done by the mentally ill, more suicides. In the end, any advantage gained by taking out a mass-shooter sooner would be negated by more gun-related deaths.

The poor analytical thinking crops up in many threat assessment situations, such as the illogic behind invading Iraq in response to 9/11.

Well said.

92 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:59:58pm

Interesting factoid: Wayne LaPierre's BA is in education so he is trained as a teacher. He has apparently never worked as one though.

93 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:00:39pm

re: #87 austin_blue

If the nut cases want everyone to be armed, accommodate them by making available flintlock muzzle loaders so that they can form well regulated militias.

Now *that* is "Constitutional original intent" that no one can argue with.

//rant off

Just like only those with a hand screw letter press can have freedom of the press like was the original intent?

94 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:01:07pm

It's OK to bring up toy guns, but don't bring up Pulp Fiction.

95 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:01:16pm

re: #87 austin_blue

You'd get armed insurrection if you tried that.

96 darthstar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:01:27pm

I just secretly replaced the micro-roast coffee I normally drink with Folgers Dark Crystals and added some Silk Vanilla Soy creamer to it, and, to be quite honest, this shit ain't half bad.

97 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:01:45pm

re: #88 Ghost of Tom Joad

LaPierre has pretty much steered them into nutter/conspiracy territory.

LaPierre has taken the hypothetical of resisting a tyrannical government and replaced it with direct, Bircher influenced anti-federalism. Honestly, I'm not entirely shocked by the transition. The biggest gun fetishists I know are also anti-federalists and Neo-Confederates.

98 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:02:20pm

re: #94 Gus

It's OK to bring up toy guns, but don't bring up Pulp Fiction.

Can we bring up Reservoir Dogs then? You're Mr. Orange.

99 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:02:37pm

Fuck Everything, Nation Reports
Just Fuck It All To Hell

100 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:03:00pm

There is no realistic answer in trying to keep guns away from nuts or nuts away from schools. The numbers of guns, nuts, and schools prohibit it. There might be some gain from new school staff procedures and architecture--provision of better exiting and safehavens in new construction. That's all we're going to get until we learn how make people not want to kill children.

101 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:03:34pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

You'd get armed insurrection if you tried that.

The original draft of the NFA of 1934 included handguns but that was too radical to pass even in the wake of thousands of armed bank robberies which killed many people too.

This is not a new phenomenon.

102 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:04:03pm

re: #97 The Ghost of a Flea

LaPierre has taken the hypothetical of resisting a tyrannical government and replaced it with direct, Bircher influenced anti-federalism. Honestly, I'm not entirely shocked by the transition. The biggest gun fetishists I know are also anti-federalists and Neo-Confederates.

From my personal perspective, I've found the hardcore gun-nutters to be racists and bigots as well. YMMV.

103 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:04:18pm

re: #96 darthstar

I just secretly replaced the micro-roast coffee I normally drink with Folgers Dark Crystals and added some Silk Vanilla Soy creamer to it, and, to be quite honest, this shit ain't half bad.

How do you propose to keep that secret from yourself?

104 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:04:36pm

We all share in this.re: #98 Dark_Falcon

Can we bring up Reservoir Dogs then? You're Mr. Orange.

Hamburgers.

105 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:06:18pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

Can we bring up Reservoir Dogs then? You're Mr. Orange.

Why am I Mr. Pink?

//

106 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:06:31pm

re: #104 Gus

We all share in this.

Hamburgers.

"Some wingnut makes trouble, acting like he's Charles Bronson, break his nose with your pocket Constitution."

///

107 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:06:41pm

You know why.

108 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:07:06pm

re: #105 Targetpractice

Why am I Mr. Pink?

//

Because I hand out the codenames, you no-tipping cheapskate.

109 austin_blue  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:08:28pm

re: #93 William Barnett-Lewis

Just like only those with a hand screw letter press can have freedom of the press like was the original intent?

Well! Aren't you the Magical Balance Fairy!

Were twenty young children killed by hand-screw letter presses today? Or the even more lethal modern computer controlled presses of today?

No?

I'll not say what I'm thinking of you right now.

110 palomino  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:08:41pm

To the contemporary American right, "More guns" is the answer to a whole range of problems.

School shootings? We should have more guns in school...what could go wrong?

Illegal immigration? We need more guns at the border pointed at Mexico.

Crime in general? We need more Zimmermans running around playing cop. Again, what could possibly go wrong?

Rape? More women should carry guns to just "shut that whole rape thing down."

This is simplistic, dangerous, hyper-macho thinking. Sadly it dominates conservative discourse these days.

111 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:03pm

re: #110 palomino

Tax cuts, guns, and babies - 2016!!!!

112 darthstar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:23pm

re: #103 b_sharp

How do you propose to keep that secret from yourself?

I'm trying to be more Republican, so I lie to myself whenever possible.

113 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:24pm

re: #87 austin_blue

I know of one person who has actually used a muzzle loader in legitimate defense in recent years. An acquaintance, a disabled vet in a wheelchair, used a percussion lock rifle to shoot a stray dog that had gotten into his yard and was attacking his much smaller dogs.

114 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:25pm

I want to make it clear that I don't like guns. But all the gun control laws, and ID checks, and waiting periods wouldn't have stopped this:

A 28th person, found dead in a house in the town, was also believed to have been shot by Mr. Lanza. That victim, one law enforcement official said, was Mr. Lanza’s mother, Nancy Lanza, a teacher at the school. She apparently owned the guns he used.

What's needed is to hold people strictly liable for crimes committed with their guns. This might encourage people to keep them locked up safely, and would certainly stop many crimes where a person gets his hand on someone else's legally-owned guns.

115 Cap'n Magic  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:26pm

(dipping his pen in heavy sarcasm with a 5x0 point)...

Well, if the instructor to the next generation of so-called 'lawyers' wants to go really go down that road, then I have a sure-fire, 100% solution to preventing such massacares from ever happening again. Unfortunately, it'll take the efforts of the dreaded Feds via the funds spent to develop military defensive weaponry, but I digress...

Take the ubiquitous Phalanx CWIS and downscale it to a size where hundreds of thousands can be massed-produced to fire .22 caliber hollow-point curare-tipped projectiles when a gunfire event is detected by audio-visual sensors and backscatter sweeps of the affected preimiter, bypassing those potential targets who aren't wearing the proper RFID/NFC tags matched to a registered weapon in open public spaces like malls or in schools.

I'd hate to be the poor sucker who has to draw up the use cases for testing such a solution, tho-what if I forgot my chip and some wisenhimer hacks my phone to send out a ringer tone that sounds like a Uzi?

116 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:43pm

My wife had breast reduction surgery last week and has been recovering at home. She's crawling the walls man. I took her for a Friday night out on the town at the department store. WOOHOO!!!!!

117 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:49pm

17 when his parents split up. Guess we can't pin this one on the scourge of single-motherhood.

118 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:10:52pm
Given that gun-free zones seem to be a magnet for mass shooters, maybe we should be working to shrink or eliminate them, rather than expand them. As they say, if it saves just one life, it’s worth it.

Nidal Hasan managed to kill 13 and wound 29 in a one-man shooting spree on the largest military base in the world, on which can be found no short supply of every type of weapon imaginable short of nuclear, biological, and chemical.

119 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:11:02pm

Terror suspects can’t buy plane tickets, but can buy guns

[May 14, 2011] About a year ago, several congressional Democrats pushed a measure that seemed pretty reasonable. If you’re on the FBI terror watch list, you should be ineligible to buy weapons in the U.S. Law enforcement has long supported the proposal, but Congress keeps rejecting it. Last year was no different — the NRA told lawmakers to kill the bill, and they did as they were told.

120 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:11:37pm

Can we at least compromise and admit the Founders would have been OK with people owning Ferguson Rifles?

121 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:12:15pm

re: #119 jaunte

Terror suspects can’t buy plane tickets, but can buy guns

Think about it, man! If they wanted to take away your right to own guns, all they'd have to do is put you on the list!

122 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:12:59pm

re: #115 Cap'n Magic

Umm....try decaf buddy. I think it'll just be safer to give little Billy a Smith & Wesson in his lunchbox next to the PB&J and applejuice.

123 Decatur Deb  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:13:00pm

"We need a better class of prisoner psychopath."
--Lester Maddox

124 Jaerik  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:13:07pm

I find it hard to believe that any of these people would seriously enjoy living in any society so choked by perpetual fear of our fellow citizens' mobile arsenals that we feel compelled to carry around assault rifles at all times.

What a dysfunctional hell-hole of a country that would be. I have better things to do with my time and money than engage in a perpetual arms race with everyone else around me.

There is zero cost-benefit rationale I can think of that would indicate a pointless escalating spiral of paranoid self-armament has any chance of creating a happier, more productive, and more globally competitive society.

125 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:15:32pm

Ugh, damnit America!

Night folks, stay safe.

126 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:15:50pm

Keeping up with the Nugents.

127 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:16:02pm

re: #119 jaunte

Terror suspects can’t buy plane tickets, but can buy guns

We've been over this one: The right to own a gun is a right that cannot be taken away without due process of law (adjudicating someone as mentally ill or convicting them of a crime requires due process, or at least is supposed to). The terrorist watch list, by contrast, does not provide for due process: People are added to it based on criterion that by necessity cannot be revealed to the general public, and once on this list there is no due process procedure for being removed from it. Thus that proposal is a non-starter.

128 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:17:05pm

re: #109 austin_blue

Well! Aren't you the Magical Balance Fairy!

Were twenty young children killed by hand-screw letter presses today? Or the even more lethal modern computer controlled presses of today?

No?

I'll not say what I'm thinking of you right now.

Would we be having this discussion if freedom of the press and speach did not cover modern technology? No. Tech cuts both ways so if the founders didn't forsee modern firearms they didn't forsee modern communications. So be mad at me if it make you feel better. It won't change the fact that you can't have it both ways.

129 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:17:06pm

YouTube ad. Gun fired at watermelon.

130 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:17:09pm

We seriously need better mental health priorities.

131 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:18:12pm

re: #124 Jaerik

I find it hard to believe that any of these people would seriously enjoy living in any society so choked by perpetual fear of our fellow citizens' mobile arsenals that we feel compelled to carry around assault rifles at all times.

What a dysfunctional hell-hole of a country that would be. I have better things to do with my time and money than engage in a perpetual arms race with everyone else around me.

There is zero cost-benefit rationale I can think of that would indicate a pointless escalating spiral of paranoid self-armament has any chance of creating a happier, more productive, and more globally competitive society.

Because really, what we need is to live in a society where everybody is scared that the person next to them might misinterpret their reaching for a pack of smokes in their inner jacket pocket as them going for their piece. Can't imagine I'd want to live in a society where a back-firing car might result in every person around me reflexively unlimbering the shootin' iron.

132 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:18:15pm

re: #130 Amory Blaine

We seriously need better mental health priorities.

Maybe, but not if it means raising my taxes!

/

133 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:20:27pm

If guns are off the table then responsibility lies in better, easier access to quality mental health care.

134 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:20:38pm

From the GAO, 2011:

"247 of the 272 individuals on the terrorist watch list who attempted to buy firearms last year were cleared to do so. The 25 denials were made for other disqualifying reasons, including felony convictions or histories of spousal abuse."

"Good luck, everyone!"

135 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:22:20pm

So, we're supposed to ignore that firearms deaths per 100k tends to be lower in states with strong gun control versus those with weaker gun control?

Here's a list of firearms deaths per 100k.

Now, look at the states which have strong gun control. Note which ones have strong gun control. They happen to be states like NY and CT and both happen to have far lower per capita rates than states with lax gun control.

That's not to say that there is a perfect correlation or that there aren't other factors involved. Strong policing and criminal codes for punishments contribute.

But to argue that adding more guns to the mix while gun free zones should be reduced ignores the larger trends. More guns wouldn't necessarily have saved those kids lives. It's the same argument I made in the aftermath of the Aurora massacre. More guns in the mix could lead to still more injuries and deaths among those caught in the crossfire, and it could potentially lead law enforcement arriving on the scene to target the friendlies in the chaos of the moment. Law enforcement arrived on scene fairly quickly and when the scope of the massacre was just beginning to be understood and called for backup from across the region (and multiple agencies/jurisdictions). If you had more people with guns in civilian clothes, it increased the chances that they could be mistaken for a perpetrator and lead to more casualties - not less. At the same time, it could have slowed the response to deal with the actual perpetrator who could use the chaos to his/her advantage.

Now consider the firearms training for the average Joe. It's going to be far less than your average police officer. And in NYC the NYPD, which is widely considered one of the best in the country, is suffering because firearms training isn't what it should be (and they're building a new state of the art training center to address this deficiency that has led to more collateral casualties than should be expected). So, we're somehow to believe that someone with less training than a police officer is going to deal with a crisis situation better? I think that's wishful thinking and one that could lead to a far more dangerous environment.

136 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:22:43pm

re: #133 Amory Blaine

If guns are off the table then responsibility lies in better, easier access to quality mental health care.

in which case, we most definitely need as a society to get over our hang-up about committing people who visibly need help but won't seek it out. Really, in some ways it comes down to which right we think less inviolate: Self-determination where it concerns our health or our right to haul around a small arsenal.

137 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:25:02pm

re: #86 William Barnett-Lewis

That's about what I've heard. I found this essay online, which describes what you just said:

The seeds of discontent planted by Carter in 1972 bore fruit in 1977 at the annual meeting in Cincinnati, Ohio. Prior to Cincinnati, friction had grown between two segments in the NRA: the Old Guard and the New Guard. The Old Guard consisted of the then-current NRA leadership and their supporters. Although they defended and promoted handguns for self-defense (the "homely old shotgun," however, was touted as the best home-defense firearm), their primary firearms interest was recreational: marksmanship, hunting and safety training. Their concerns over gun control were limited to its effects on traditional sporting activities. To the Second Amendment fundamentalists of the New Guard, stopping gun control was paramount. To this vocal minority, gun ownership was no longer a recreational issue, but a political one. They viewed the NRA as the last bulwark against a government and newly formed gun control movement that wanted nothing less than the banning of all guns.

138 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:26:05pm

re: #124 Jaerik

I find it hard to believe that any of these people would seriously enjoy living in any society so choked by perpetual fear of our fellow citizens' mobile arsenals that we feel compelled to carry around assault rifles at all times.

When I read people like Instapundit, the feeling I get is that they really don't want or believe that everybody should be armed. Rather, they desire that they should be armed and everyone else should accept the authority that emanates from their being armed. Furthermore, should they exercise lethal force, we're supposed to respect that decision rather than doubt or question their action. Their violence is just and reasonable a priori. It's gun ownership as mythology.

Built into this whole discussion of being armed at all times is a thread of privilege: specifically that you're the "right kind of person" to be carrying a weapon at all times, and thus that other shouldn't be wary or suspicious of you carrying. Hence the heaping contempt on those that don't want to be armed or are skeptical of always carrying: they're taking it personally.

139 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:26:37pm

From the NYTimes reporting, there's no indication this person showed any signs of being mentally disturbed, though other news stories have been saying this.

Again, I don't like guns and choose not to own any, but I also don't like laws passed after a crime that wouldn't have prevented the crime in the first place (e.g., "Three Strikes" and numerous "Megan's Laws")

If the reports that the shooter had a "personality disorder" are accurate, then the real culprit here is the schoolteacher/mother that kept her legal guns within easy reach of her disturbed son.

140 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:26:43pm
141 Jocko's Rocket Ship  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:29:17pm

Heh. if grade schools teachers need to be firearm-trained rent-a-cops in addition to their lazy (union) teaching duties, you need to pay them for that. That will add a lot to govt budgets. Hmm, what to do? Right to work, meet for Need-to-Pack law for teachers. Don't like it do something else lazy socialist teachers.

After you militarize schools, that only leaves exposed areas to mass killings to ... everywhere. Even on a military base, Fort Hood, where everyone was highly trained and armed, someone - not even a "soldier" but a MD - killed 13 people and wounded 29. But he was a Muslim so that doesn't count. And not one of those highly trained soldiers managed to get a shot off to kill, just winged him. Glenn would have done better I'm sure.

142 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:29:50pm

Good night all. May the good one bless you and yours.

143 Targetpractice  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:29:54pm

re: #139 ReamWorks SKG

From the NYTimes reporting, there's no indication this person showed any signs of being mentally disturbed, though other news stories have been saying this.

Again, I don't like guns and choose not to own any, but I also don't like laws passed after a crime that wouldn't have prevented the crime in the first place (e.g., "Three Strikes" and numerous "Megan's Laws")

I'm not simply looking at this shooting, I'm looking at all of those in recent years. And one of the patterns in major shootings has been that people around them noticed they showed visible sides of mental illness, even as simple as being "weird," but said nothing for fear that it might be misinterpreted.

144 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:30:02pm

re: #133 Amory Blaine

That presupposes that those committing these crimes are actually mentally ill or would otherwise be disqualified on mental health grounds.

It might have thwarted the Va Tech shooter, but not necessarily others.

Access to mental health treatment would reduce, but not eliminate the problem.

Combine that with say restrictions on high capacity clips (or ammo-loading devices), and you could still further reduce the potential for mass casualty incidents - but not eliminate them since someone could still obtain multiple clips that could be reloaded. Reloading would be more frequent- meaning someone could have a period of time to stop the shooter.

It's amazing that even that limited step couldn't gain traction after any number of the past mass casualty incidents even after their use contributed to the high number of deaths.

145 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:30:12pm

re: #136 Targetpractice

in which case, we most definitely need as a society to get over our hang-up about committing people who visibly need help but won't seek it out. Really, in some ways it comes down to which right we think less inviolate: Self-determination where it concerns our health or our right to haul around a small arsenal.

Charles and I discussed this several years ago. In the Reagan years the GOP thought it was too expensive to have quality mental care in California.
Napa Had a huge mental hospital that literally emptied on the streets.
It was a huge scandal. The homeless issue in parks and people wandering the Streets of scenic Napa begging for money and buying drugs and booze.
The GOP saved money by cutting money to the most needed citizens among us.

146 Cap'n Magic  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:31:22pm

re: #122 Ghost of Tom Joad

Since I do not drink decaf (AAMOF I absolutely Loathe the taste of coffee), and since Herr Frum has already tweeted about lettin' the youngsers pack heat in their lunchboxes next to their SpongeBob/Dora the Explorer Thermos(tm) bottles and GoGurt tubes, I'd just assume take the human equation totally out of the loop. The only issue I see with such a massive deployment is like the old ST:TNG episode: "Who Watches The Watchers?"

147 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:36:08pm

re: #145 A Man for all Seasons

Charles and I discussed this several years ago. In the Reagan years the GOP thought it was too expensive to have quality mental care in California.
Napa Had a huge mental hospital that literally emptied on the streets.
It was a huge scandal. The homeless issue in parks and people wandering the Streets of scenic Napa begging for money and buying drugs and booze.
The GOP saved money by cutting money to the most needed citizens among us.

I'm all for more quality mental health care in California. In fact, the "Meathead" tax (championed by Rob Reiner) passed several years ago to raise money for this very cause: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

My opinion: If mental health is so important, why don't ALL Californians have to pay for it? I voted NO on prop 63, but my fellow Californians overruled me.

148 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:36:17pm

re: #105 Targetpractice

Why am I Mr. Pink?

//

You're the best distraction for when Komen sues you for stealing the color from them.

149 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:36:44pm

re: #124 Jaerik

I find it hard to believe that any of these people would seriously enjoy living in any society so choked by perpetual fear of our fellow citizens' mobile arsenals that we feel compelled to carry around assault rifles at all times.

What a dysfunctional hell-hole of a country that would be. I have better things to do with my time and money than engage in a perpetual arms race with everyone else around me.

There is zero cost-benefit rationale I can think of that would indicate a pointless escalating spiral of paranoid self-armament has any chance of creating a happier, more productive, and more globally competitive society.

Naw you just need one cheap gun, or even a knife. When the world goes all "MadMax" just blind side one of the people who spent a fortune arming themselves. Problem solved, now you have an arsenal too.

///sigh...

150 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:36:45pm

re: #141 Jocko's Rocket Ship

Heh. if grade schools teachers need to be firearm-trained rent-a-cops in addition to their lazy (union) teaching duties, you need to pay them for that. That will add a lot to govt budgets. Hmm, what to do? Right to work, meet for Need-to-Pack law for teachers. Don't like it do something else lazy socialist teachers.

Image: go-fuck-yourself.jpg

151 austin_blue  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:37:25pm

re: #128 William Barnett-Lewis

Would we be having this discussion if freedom of the press and speach did not cover modern technology? No. Tech cuts both ways so if the founders didn't forsee modern firearms they didn't forsee modern communications. So be mad at me if it make you feel better. It won't change the fact that you can't have it both ways.

But we can, and we should. We are better than the wild-west gun-toting culture we live in.

Why can't I own mortars? Or howitzers? Or MANPADS? Or grenades?

Why shouldn't my neighborhood be able to have a micro-nuke available if we get into a war with Pemberton Heights? (Those rich bastards!)

Twenty seven innocents died today, but another 15,000 will be killed with guns this year. It is simply barbaric and inhuman. It must be controlled, and you do that with Legislation. That's how it works.

152 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:37:43pm

re: #105 Targetpractice

Because Mr. Purple is on another job. You're Mr. Pink. /Big Joe

Now ramblers, lets get rambling.

153 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:37:47pm

re: #130 Amory Blaine

We seriously need better mental health priorities.

That much is certain.

154 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:38:22pm

We always seem to have the wrong reaction to these tragedies. Looking for the easy way out or forcing authority down our throats. Someone will declare war on murderers or something.

155 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:39:19pm

re: #124 Jaerik

I find it hard to believe that any of these people would seriously enjoy living in any society so choked by perpetual fear of our fellow citizens' mobile arsenals that we feel compelled to carry around assault rifles at all times.

What a dysfunctional hell-hole of a country that would be. I have better things to do with my time and money than engage in a perpetual arms race with everyone else around me.

There is zero cost-benefit rationale I can think of that would indicate a pointless escalating spiral of paranoid self-armament has any chance of creating a happier, more productive, and more globally competitive society.

You get the feeling that a lot of these nuts are mentally already living there.

156 Renaissance_Man  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:39:33pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

We've been over this one: The right to own a gun is a right that cannot be taken away without due process of law (adjudicating someone as mentally ill or convicting them of a crime requires due process, or at least is supposed to). The terrorist watch list, by contrast, does not provide for due process: People are added to it based on criterion that by necessity cannot be revealed to the general public, and once on this list there is no due process procedure for being removed from it. Thus that proposal is a non-starter.

If your Constitutional rights are designed to protect the rights of any fool to arm themselves any way they please over the common sense of not having kids shot, then your Constitution is morally and ethically wrong.

157 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:40:29pm

re: #148 Feline Fearless Leader

You're the best distraction for when Komen sues you for stealing the color from them.

If we're stealing colors, then I'm annexing International Klein Blue.

158 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:40:30pm

The Long Day

159 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:42:38pm

re: #141 Jocko's Rocket Ship

Heh. if grade schools teachers need to be firearm-trained rent-a-cops in addition to their lazy (union) teaching duties, you need to pay them for that. That will add a lot to govt budgets. Hmm, what to do? Right to work, meet for Need-to-Pack law for teachers. Don't like it do something else lazy socialist teachers.

After you militarize schools, that only leaves exposed areas to mass killings to ... everywhere. Even on a military base, Fort Hood, where everyone was highly trained and armed, someone - not even a "soldier" but a MD - killed 13 people and wounded 29. But he was a Muslim so that doesn't count. And not one of those highly trained soldiers managed to get a shot off to kill, just winged him. Glenn would have done better I'm sure.

I assume there should be a sarcasm/satire tag after that.

160 austin_blue  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:42:41pm

re: #154 Amory Blaine

We always seem to have the wrong reaction to these tragedies. Looking for the easy way out or forcing authority down our throats. Someone will declare war on murderers or something.

Authority to prevent anarchy is a good thing. And today was anarchy, no mistake. The system completely failed its citizens. It must be fixed. This town, according to the Police chief, hadn't had a murder in ten years. And now this.

This system is broken. What to do? Nothing? Is that acceptable?

161 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:42:50pm

re: #141 Jocko's Rocket Ship

This better be sarcasm. Especially on a day like today.

162 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:43:34pm

re: #141 Jocko's Rocket Ship

They were not armed though, those soldiers were filling out pre-deployment paperwork in preparation to be shipped overseas. No one was carrying a gun, soldiers on bases stateside do not carry weapons unless they are standing post or there is an alert.

163 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:44:19pm

re: #159 b_sharp

re: #161 dragonath

Come on, what better time to score points against us greedy teachers than when 20 school children have been murdered?

164 b_sharp  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:44:20pm

Good night.

165 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:45:25pm

re: #156 Renaissance_Man

If your Constitutional rights are designed to protect the rights of any fool to arm themselves any way they please over the common sense of not having kids shot, then your Constitution is morally and ethically wrong.

I did not say that. But rights guaranteed in the Constitution cannot be taken away without due process. A terrorist watch list cannot employ due process or it will become ineffective (because if you make public the criteria for putting someone on a watch list, terrorists will adapt so as to avoid those list criteria). Thus being on a terrorist watch list cannot be used a criteria to deny someone a firearm without making the list ineffective or denying that person due process (which is unconstitutional).

166 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:47:00pm

re: #141 Jocko's Rocket Ship

Heh. if grade schools teachers need to be firearm-trained rent-a-cops in addition to their lazy (union) teaching duties, you need to pay them for that. That will add a lot to govt budgets. Hmm, what to do? Right to work, meet for Need-to-Pack law for teachers. Don't like it do something else lazy socialist teachers.

After you militarize schools, that only leaves exposed areas to mass killings to ... everywhere. Even on a military base, Fort Hood, where everyone was highly trained and armed, someone - not even a "soldier" but a MD - killed 13 people and wounded 29. But he was a Muslim so that doesn't count. And not one of those highly trained soldiers managed to get a shot off to kill, just winged him. Glenn would have done better I'm sure.

Don't try so hard next time.

167 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:47:07pm

re: #163 bratwurst

re: #161 dragonath

Come on, what better time to score points against us greedy teachers than when 20 school children have been murdered?

Yea. I bet you were boldly throwing yourselves in the gunman's way in hope of getting that "million dollar" minor wound so that you could then live off the public dime for the rest of your life!


/(massive)

168 Renaissance_Man  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:48:55pm

re: #130 Amory Blaine

We seriously need better mental health priorities.

Screw the 'mental health' argument.

It's complete twaddle.

No nation on earth does a good job of handling the mentally ill. It's a difficult aspect of medicine, with no good treatments, and humans react to it negatively the world over. Crazy people are handled badly and treated worse all over the world.

The difference is, here in the US, your mentally ill are heavily armed. And when one of them kills a bunch of people, even kids, you wring your hands about it for a few days and then move on, ignoring the issue and dumping it in the too hard basket. And then tut-tut about 'politics' if anyone dares to mention the Holy Firearm, because heaven forbid we talk about the sacred guns in the aftermath of the shooting of the week. Only motherhood statements about your prayers being with the families and mourning as a nation are allowed, because they don't offend the Church of the Gun.

And now, motherhood statements about 'mental health' are de rigueur too. Like somehow, if only we can do what has never happened in human history and adequately care for and heal the mentally ill, then it'll be totally okay for people to cuddle their guns to sleep and your fellow citizens won't be massacred at unconscionable rates.

Well, fuck that.

169 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:50:08pm

re: #160 austin_blue

Like I said about expanding mental health. Is there the political will though? Improving access and quality of mental health will produce good dividends but we have a party that won't raise taxes one penny. Freedom isn't free and having unfettered access to guns has a cost to society.

170 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:51:43pm
171 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:53:10pm

Gun control advocates haven't exactly been winning.

172 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:56:29pm

Fact is that the Republicans in the House ain't gonna do shit. People can call for the President to submit legislation, to politicize this and make noise, but that's all it will accomplish. Do the Brady Campaign spokespeople really think that if the President doesn't push hard for gun control now that people will forget it's the Republicans who are blocking any meaningful reform? Everyone knows who's blocking any meaningful action on handgun control, it isn't a mystery.

I'm seeing a lot of the same old canards about background checks, reinstating an assault weapons ban and fixing the gun show loophole that in reality has nothing to do with gun shows ... shit that coincidentally wouldn't have done a damned thing to prevent this tragedy.

Face it, this is where America is going to be for several more years at the very least. We Democrats lost the gun control debate and are still paying a political price for the original, completely ineffectual and pointless, assault weapons ban. Obama and the Democrats probably aren't going to waste too much of whatever political capital they have right now on such a Sisyphean task as trying to push gun control through the current House. At best they'll head fake in that direction just long enough to make it clear to everyone, again, who the obstructionists really are.

173 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:57:17pm

Adam Lanza's mother did not teach at the school. He apparently just wanted to slaughter children.

Details Emerge About Family of Suspected Gunman

174 prairiefire  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:58:49pm

Bob Dylan "Forever Young" ~

175 Gus  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:59:21pm

re: #173 Charles Johnson

Adam Lanza's mother did not teach at the school. He apparently just wanted to slaughter children.

Details Emerge About Family of Suspected Gunman

What a monster.

176 Jocko's Rocket Ship  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 8:59:55pm

Clearly my satire of Instapundit was not well-received. I've been reading here for many years, never been more outraged by the right than today. So I joined.

To the extent that service members were carrying arms at Fort Hood is not really the point. The point- which I think was clear - is it's ludicrous to expect suburban grade school teachers to be prepared to stop an assault when an army base full of soldiers cant. So fuck off if you don't like it

177 austin_blue  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:05:57pm

re: #168 Renaissance_Man

Screw the 'mental health' argument.

It's complete twaddle.

No nation on earth does a good job of handling the mentally ill. It's a difficult aspect of medicine, with no good treatments, and humans react to it negatively the world over. Crazy people are handled badly and treated worse all over the world.

The difference is, here in the US, your mentally ill are heavily armed. And when one of them kills a bunch of people, even kids, you wring your hands about it for a few days and then move on, ignoring the issue and dumping it in the too hard basket. And then tut-tut about 'politics' if anyone dares to mention the Holy Firearm, because heaven forbid we talk about the sacred guns in the aftermath of the shooting of the week. Only motherhood statements about your prayers being with the families and mourning as a nation are allowed, because they don't offend the Church of the Gun.

And now, motherhood statements about 'mental health' are de rigueur too. Like somehow, if only we can do what has never happened in human history and adequately care for and heal the mentally ill, then it'll be totally okay for people to cuddle their guns to sleep and your fellow citizens won't be massacred at unconscionable rates.

Well, fuck that.

re: #169 Amory Blaine

Like I said about expanding mental health. Is there the political will though? Improving access and quality of mental health will produce good dividends but we have a party that won't raise taxes one penny. Freedom isn't free and having unfettered access to guns has a cost to society.

Guess whose post I like better? RenMan, take a bow! The status quo must change.

178 JAFO  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:09:32pm

re: #176 Jocko's Rocket Ship

you might want to use // at the end of comments meant as satire to denote it as such. It doesn't always translate well to text.

179 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:10:32pm

re: #178 JAFO

you might want to use // at the end of comments meant as satire to denote it as such. It doesn't always translate well to text.

One might assume someone who has been reading LGF for "years" would know that already.

180 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:11:47pm

Here's the problem in a graphical nutshell. Over the last twenty to thirty years, at the same time that more and more guns were concentrated into fewer and fewer hands, US public support for stricter gun control laws tanked.

181 JAFO  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:11:49pm

re: #179 bratwurst

One might assume someone who has been reading LGF for "years" would know that already.

I didn't

182 Renaissance_Man  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:13:58pm

re: #177 austin_blue

re: #169 Amory Blaine

Guess whose post I like better? RenMan, take a bow! The status quo must change.

I don't care whether my argument is eloquent or not today. The fact remains that a lot of parents and grandparents cannot cuddle their children this Christmas because a small minority of you want to cuddle their guns instead.

And while some of you rightly find that revolting, the sad truth is that as a nation, America thinks that's okay.

183 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:15:28pm

re: #176 Jocko's Rocket Ship

Clearly my satire of Instapundit was not well-received. I've been reading here for many years, never been more outraged by the right than today. So I joined.

To the extent that service members were carrying arms at Fort Hood is not really the point. The point- which I think was clear - is it's ludicrous to expect suburban grade school teachers to be prepared to stop an assault when an army base full of soldiers cant. So fuck off if you don't like it

I read it as satire.

But if you plan to stick around, "my apologies for any misinterpretation" works a lot better than "so fuck off if you don't like it."

184 Jaerik  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:15:47pm

re: #156 Renaissance_Man

If your Constitutional rights are designed to protect the rights of any fool to arm themselves any way they please over the common sense of not having kids shot, then your Constitution is morally and ethically wrong.

No document is perfect. While overwhelmingly worthy of praise in aggregate, the original Constitution was morally and ethically wrong in a number of ways, not the least of which was its grudging acceptance of slavery. 625,000 Americans later died to fix that mistake.

I can accept that the Constitution grants a right to bear arms while simultaneously believing it was a fundamental mistake to do so.

There was a very well-intentioned theory, informed by the reality of the situation when the Constitution was ratified, that only a well-armed populace could prevent a government from oppressing its own people.

That hasn't turned out to be the case. The current US federal government has more firepower than the rest of the world combined, plus enough cruise missiles and nuclear weapons to blow up the planet several hundred times over. It is not fear of crazy Uncle Jerry's .22 and closet full of ammo that's preventing them from going full Stalin on us.

185 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:16:51pm

re: #177 austin_blue

We need to make it harder to get guns and make people responsible for securing them.

186 Kronocide  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:16:57pm

re: #178 JAFO

you might want to use // at the end of comments meant as satire to denote it as such. It doesn't always translate well to text.

You also might not want to say fuck off when you made the mistake in the first place.

187 Kronocide  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:20:07pm
GUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the fifth exclamation point it starts sounding rational.

188 austin_blue  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:21:18pm

re: #182 Renaissance_Man

I don't care whether my argument is eloquent or not today. The fact remains that a lot of parents and grandparents cannot cuddle their children this Christmas because a small minority of you want to cuddle their guns instead.

And while some of you rightly find that revolting, the sad truth is that as a nation, America thinks that's okay.

Ding ding ding ding!

GMTA. ;-) We seem to be in complete agreement tonight.

Okay, Lizards, I am for the rack. Good night all, and sweet scaly dreams.

189 Amory Blaine  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:25:00pm

And I don't think dismissing the mental health aspect of our gun problem out of hand is constructive. If we didn't live in a country that treated health care like widget production we may have better outcomes. I mean even people with good careers can have inadequate mental health benefits. Restrictions would be good but it all doesn't have to be one approach.

190 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:27:47pm

Birds of a feather...

191 Kragar  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:31:04pm

re: #190 Four More Tears

Birds of a feather...

[Embedded content]

I pray every day that Bryan Fischer shuts the fuck up and it never works.

192 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:31:10pm
193 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:31:36pm

re: #191 Kragar

I pray every day that Bryan Fischer shuts the fuck up and it never works.

Pray harder.

194 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:34:48pm

re: #189 Amory Blaine

And I don't think dismissing the mental health aspect of our gun problem out of hand is constructive. If we didn't live in a country that treated health care like widget production we may have better outcomes. I mean even people with good careers can have inadequate mental health benefits. Restrictions would be good but it all doesn't have to be one approach.

Yeah, it's easy for people who live in countries with universal healthcare to grasp how completely fucked and on their own the mentally ill are in the United States.

195 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:44:13pm

re: #190 Four More Tears

Birds of a feather...

[Embedded content]

These sadistic pricks just can't resist twisting the knife one more time, can they?

196 simoom  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:46:05pm

I was poking around HotAir, looking back to around the time of the President's statement, mostly out of morbid curiosity. There was all the vitriol you'd typically expect, but this one actually made me do a double-take:

Did anyone notice that he managed to give the nation ‘the finger’ as he he wiped away an invisible tear?

LegendHasIt on December 14, 2012 at 3:34 PM

On top of giving us ‘the finger’, he also takes every opportunity to display his golden islamic terror ring.

Pork-Chop on December 14, 2012 at 3:53 PM

Bolding is mine. "Golden Islamic Terror Ring"? I must have missed whatever episode of nutty RW mythology that one sprung from, but it sounds right up there with "terrorist fist jab."

197 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:46:54pm

re: #183 BongCrodny

But if you plan to stick around, "my apologies for any misinterpretation" works a lot better than "so fuck off if you don't like it."

Indeed.

198 Jocko's Rocket Ship  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:50:06pm

Many sorries. Never posted so the satire denotation didn't register. I take back the 'fuck off" thing 100%. I'm a little amped up with hate for Reynolds et al.

I guess it's a sad that the post was plausible, but I should know better. I'll try to do better next time.

199 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:50:07pm

Feather removed from inside babies swollen jaw, freaky story...

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Glad that everything came out all right in the end.

200 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:53:15pm

re: #196 simoom

Bolding is mine. "Golden Islamic Terror Ring"? I must have missed whatever episode of nutty RW mythology that one sprung from, but it sounds right up there with "terrorist fist jab."

Here ya go...

[Link: www.wnd.com...]

201 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:55:35pm

re: #196 simoom

Bolding is mine. "Golden Islamic Terror Ring"? I must have missed whatever episode of nutty RW mythology that one sprung from, but it sounds right up there with "terrorist fist jab."

How could you miss that episode? Here's Snopes on the ring. It supposedly says "Allah". The other part is that he got it when he married his gay Pakistani lover. Don't even ask me what depths of depraved wingnut lunacy that came from because I can't remember now, but it was all over the place for a while.

202 simoom  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:56:17pm

re: #200 watching you tiny alien kittens are

re: #201 CuriousLurker

Thanks, I was too chicken to search for it.

203 palomino  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:56:45pm

re: #198 Jocko's Rocket Ship

Many sorries. Never posted so the satire denotation didn't register. I take back the 'fuck off" thing 100%. I'm a little amped up with hate for Reynolds et al.

I guess it's a sad that the post was plausible, but I should know better. I'll try to do better next time.

No worries. I thought it was pretty clear from your second paragraph that your first paragraphy was totally sarcastic. Pretty funny too.

After you militarize schools, that only leaves exposed areas to mass killings to ... everywhere...

Don't leave just cuz someone told you to "fuck off." That happens here with some frequency, and it's usually no big deal.

204 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:57:29pm

re: #200 watching you tiny alien kittens are

And here is one of the debunks for the "Muslim/Allah ring" meme...

[Link: www.snopes.com...]

205 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:57:41pm

re: #202 simoom

re: #201 CuriousLurker

Thanks, I was too chicken to search for it.

Heh, I don't blame you.

206 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:58:42pm

Because things aren't depressing enough, a reminder that the horrors done to children are ongoing.


New York Hasidic counselor found guilty of repeatedly sexually abusing girl

A religious counselor in Brooklyn's ultra-orthodox Jewish community was convicted Monday of the sustained sexual abuse of a girl who was sent to him with questions about her faith.

The courtroom was silent as Nechemya Weberman was convicted of 59 counts, including sustained sex abuse of a child, endangering the welfare of a child and other counts. He faces 25 years in prison on the top charge and two to seven years on the lesser charges.

The abuse of positions of trust is far too common with children. This is an especially heinous one, taking advantage of the trust that a religious community puts in its leader.

The victim testified that she and her family were harassed and shunned for coming forward; her father lost his business and her nieces were kicked out of school.

During the trial, which began last week, three men were charged with criminal contempt for snapping images of the accuser on the witness stand with cellphone cameras and posting them online. And before the trial began, Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hynes charged other men with trying to bribe the accuser to drop the charges.

These men are utter cowards, and their misogynistic fanaticism is what enables the abuse and rape of young girls. I hope that this particular Hasidic community responds to this conviction with soul-searching and not with defensiveness. Sadly, I fear that will not be the case.

207 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:59:21pm

re: #204 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Heat Maps!

208 Kronocide  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 9:59:55pm

re: #203 palomino

No worries. I thought it was pretty clear from your second paragraph that your first paragraphy was totally sarcastic. Pretty funny too.

Don't leave just cuz someone told you to "fuck off." That happens here with some frequency, and it's usually no big deal.

FUCK.THE.FUCK.OFF.

How was mom's casserole?

209 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:00:26pm
210 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:00:36pm

re: #204 watching you tiny alien kittens are

And here is one of the debunks for the "Muslim/Allah ring" meme...

[Link: www.snopes.com...]

The images look like snakes.

Clearly, Obama is a Hindu.

211 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:01:01pm

re: #184 Jaerik

One of the hurdles to overcome, for anyone who wishes to address the very real but too-often denied weaknesses of the Constitution is that for a large portion of Americans the Constitution has been blended seamlessly with their theistic (nominally "Christian") religion.

So now by implying that the Constitution was written with errors you're staring down the same barrel as suggesting the Bible is full of errors.

And that is a tough row to hoe.

212 Tigger2005  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:01:12pm

re: #128 William Barnett-Lewis

Would we be having this discussion if freedom of the press and speach did not cover modern technology? No. Tech cuts both ways so if the founders didn't forsee modern firearms they didn't forsee modern communications. So be mad at me if it make you feel better. It won't change the fact that you can't have it both ways.

Yes, you can. Don't be ridiculous.

213 CuriousLurker  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:01:54pm

re: #206 Obdicut

Upding, but I'm not gonna read it. I can't take any more today.

214 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:02:38pm

LAS VEGAS -- Metro Police have confirmed a shooting at the Excalibur Hotel in Las Vegas Friday night.

A female has been shot and transported to University Medical Center. The suspected gunman then shot himself, the police said.

The Excalibur casino and hotel, on the southwest corner of Las Vegas Boulevard South and Tropicana Avenue, is owned by MGM Resorts International.

215 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:03:06pm

re: #213 CuriousLurker

Upding, but I'm not gonna read it. I can't take any more today.

It's a brand new day...

216 palomino  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:05:16pm

re: #208 Kronocide

FUCK.THE.FUCK.OFF.

How was mom's casserole?

That's it, FUCK YOU. I'm leaving, for good...or until later this weekend.

Mom's casserole? As usual, I threw it up.

217 Jocko's Rocket Ship  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:07:09pm

re: #203 palomino

Thanks. It's my first day. I thought the idea from wingers that (unionized) teachers should be required to learn to pack a couple of days after the they insisted workers should be required to not pay union dues ...err... agency fees was pretty a pretty important point to mock.

218 BongCrodny  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:09:15pm

re: #206 Obdicut

Because things aren't depressing enough, a reminder that the horrors done to children are ongoing.

New York Hasidic counselor found guilty of repeatedly sexually abusing girl

The abuse of positions of trust is far too common with children. This is an especially heinous one, taking advantage of the trust that a religious community puts in its leader.

These men are utter cowards, and their misogynistic fanaticism is what enables the abuse and rape of young girls. I hope that this particular Hasidic community responds to this conviction with soul-searching and not with defensiveness. Sadly, I fear that will not be the case.

There's a link below that story to an even worse crime.

I'm not going to bring it over here. Like CL, I'm thinking it's too much for one day.

219 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:10:15pm

Contrasts.

220 blueraven  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:11:10pm

something soothing

amos lee

221 bratwurst  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:15:25pm

re: #217 Jocko's Rocket Ship

Thanks. It's my first day. I thought the idea from wingers that (unionized) teachers should be required to learn to pack a couple of days after the they insisted workers should be required to not pay union dues ...err... agency fees was pretty a pretty important point to mock.

Sorry to have over-reacted. However, the fact that this awful tragedy had already lead to one troll turning up today led me to jump to conclusions and not get past the first paragraph of your initial post.

222 jaunte  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:29:46pm
223 Mich-again  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:32:54pm
An article on Michigan’s RTC law: “Concerns that permit holders would lose their tempers in traffic accidents have been unfounded. Worries about risks to police officers have also proved unfounded.... National surveys of police show they support concealed handgun laws by a 3-1 margin....There is also not a single academic study that claims Right to Carry laws have increased state crime rates. The debate among academics has been over how large the benefits have been.”11

Yeah but... That synopsis disregards what happens when legally obtained weapons end up in the wrong hands. Its just simple math. The more legal weapons there are out there, the more will be used illegally for one reason or another.

224 freetoken  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:42:31pm
225 prairiefire  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:51:34pm

So, Deathcab for Cutie band gets their name from the Beatles Magical Mystery Tour movie. Did not know that.

226 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 10:53:18pm

re: #225 prairiefire

So, Deathcab for Cutie band gets their name from the Beatles Magical Mystery Tour movie. Did not know that.

I didn't know that.. I like them a lot

227 KingKenrod  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 11:12:51pm

re: #225 prairiefire

So, Deathcab for Cutie band gets their name from the Beatles Magical Mystery Tour movie. Did not know that.

The Bonzo Dog Band song existed before the movie...

228 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 11:16:55pm

IBM supercomputer used to simulate a typical human brain

Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, doesn't it?

229 Jocko's Rocket Ship  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 11:18:30pm

re: #221 bratwurst

Thanks too. I come in mad like HULK and pound with satire on tough day. No one know me. Bad.

I'm in Banner mode now.

230 prairiefire  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 11:19:15pm

re: #227 KingKenrod

The Bonzo Dog Band song existed before the movie...

[Embedded content]

Thanks, I didn't think it was a Beatles tune.

231 dragonath  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 11:25:39pm
232 prairiefire  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 11:31:26pm

Restful, peaceful sleep to the lizards.

233 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Dec 14, 2012 11:34:48pm

re: #232 prairiefire

And sun warmed rocks in the morning.

234 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:18:52am

Morning, all

235 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:25:03am

re: #224 freetoken

Most appropriate after yesterday's tragic events.

Most appropriate.

236 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:11:04am

More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
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More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.
More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.

237 dragonath  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 1:45:34am

CataCombo sound system coffin plays music you'll take to the grave

With speakers in the coffin linked to a server in the gravestone controllable via Spotify, the system redefines the concept of life after death.

238 freetoken  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:15:12am
239 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:47:10am

I hate website moderators at news sites that remove your comments solely because you point out errors in the content the site has published. :(

So rather than reply with a "gee thanks for pointing that out we will correct that error shortly" they just nuke your comment. Then leave their mistakes up until someone eventually gets around to correcting it hours later without ever acknowledging they made an error in the first place.

This shit today with the non-stop stream of reporting errors by the press, many of which still have not been corrected, is part of the reason many people no longer trust the accuracy of the news.

asshats...

240 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:02:03am

TIME TRAVELERS OF THE BIBLE: HOW HEBREW PROPHETS SHATTERED THE BARRIERS OF TIME-SPACE

Gary Stearman | Defender, 2011

In the late 1960s, while piloting a routine flight from Dallas to Lubbock, Texas, Gary Stearman encountered a UFO, which “probed” him with “waves of energy” and “opened [his] mind to the absolute reality of beings who have what appears to be a technology that’s eons ahead of ours.”

In Time Travelers of the Bible, Stearman reveals that the beings he mistook for aliens were, in fact, divine in origin – angels or demons (he’s not sure which) who became momentarily visible through a transdimensional portal that must have opened just as he was flying by.

Such entities have traveled between dimensions for millennia, Stearman says. Intent on destroying God’s plan, demonic “Sons of God” have for millennia attempted to “tilt the minds of human leaders toward the cause of Satan,” at times even taking human brides to produce half-demonic offspring, including the Greek gods Zeus and Apollo. The Flood wiped out the first generation of their spawn, Stearman says, but now — as prophesied by time travelers like Adam, Moses, Jesus and John — they’re back and gaining strength.

When the Tribulation comes, God’s chosen will be taken to Heaven (which is actually a cube-shaped “mobile city” from a parallel universe, “capable of navigating time-space in the dimensions between heaven and earth”). Those who remain will be ruled by Satan and his minions, who even now wait in Hades, a cavernous realm beneath the earth’s surface which is accessible only to shamans and occultists capable of “popping through” the “dimensional door in time-space” that protects coal miners and others whose work takes them beneath the earth’s surface from accidental encounters with the underworld.

Confused? You won’t be after reading Stearman’s book, which, according to prophecy expert Thomas Horn, “is not just a key, but the key to understanding the elusive scientific and supernatural wisdom surrounding a Grand Universal Theory of Everything that just happens to be located at a pivotal ‘center of the symmetry of time’ at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.”

LMFAO!
This is part of a SPLC article on WorldNet Daily pumping out ridiculous propaganda.

241 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:19:02am

re: #240 watching you tiny alien kittens are

TIME TRAVELERS OF THE BIBLE: HOW HEBREW PROPHETS SHATTERED THE BARRIERS OF TIME-SPACE

LMFAO!
This is part of a SPLC article on WorldNet Daily pumping out ridiculous propaganda.

Are Aliens really ancient figures from the Bibles?

No. Next stupid question.

242 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:25:15am

re: #240 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Heh. I'm a prophecy expert too. Ready to hear my expertise?

There's no such thing as prophecy

Bam!

243 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:28:26am

If you believe in the concept of virgins giving birth and dead people getting up and walking away from their graves, then you are ready to accept about anything...

244 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:31:55am

And yay, the spirit of Christmas!

[Link: usnews.nbcnews.com...]

But a menorah in Miami Beach, Fla., has also become an attraction for hate speech, with someone scribbling "you killed Jesus" on the base of the prominent Chabad Hanukkah display.

245 Kragar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:33:53am

re: #244 Obdicut

And yay, the spirit of Christmas!

[Link: usnews.nbcnews.com...]

Which is ironic considering anyone that racist has probably talked about killing a few people named Jesus more than a few times.

246 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:34:11am

re: #244 Obdicut

And yay, the spirit of Christmas!

[Link: usnews.nbcnews.com...]

I would venture say this has more to do with people being bigoted, drunk and stoopid than with Anti-Semitism. Or has Mel Gibson been sighted in Malibu lately?

247 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:36:58am

re: #246 Sol Berdinowitz

I would venture say this has more to do with bigoted, drunk and stoopid than Anti-Semitism. Or has Mel Gibson been sighted in Malibu lately?

I hope so. I dunno. I think if you write "fuck kikes" and a swastika, even if you are drunk you're probably anti-semitic too.

248 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:38:57am

yes, I did not say there was not an anti-Semitic element in there, but I would also venture to say that this person was probably not sober or educated enough to understand anything about Judaism beyond the standard clichés.

249 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:47:48am

re: #211 freetoken

One of the hurdles to overcome, for anyone who wishes to address the very real but too-often denied weaknesses of the Constitution is that for a large portion of Americans the Constitution has been blended seamlessly with their theistic (nominally "Christian") religion.

So now by implying that the Constitution was written with errors you're staring down the same barrel as suggesting the Bible is full of errors.

And that is a tough row to hoe.

I'd counter that the US Constitution is seen by most people as a bulwark against overweening government. Thus any attempt to 'fix' any flaw in the document runs afoul of public fears that changes will leave them vulnerable to official predation. This is further tied into the fact in many cases these days people from urban areas and 'flyover country' hold each other in contempt. Amending the Constitution is justly hard, but it is impossible when a percentage of people sufficient to defeat the proposed change will automatically oppose it because it came from the opposing faction.

250 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:56:26am

If you accept as a postulate that "We Are a Christian Nation", then yes, you tend to see the Constitution as being divinely inspired as the Old and New Testaments.

251 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:31:24am

In the last half-hour Fox conservative entertainment media has managed to say that the guns used in the school shooting were legally purchased and registered 13 times.

Because everyone knows that if you want people to remember your point you should repeat it as much as possible should repeat it as much as possible should repeat it as much as possible. Because everyone knows that if you want people to remember your point you should repeat it as much as possible should repeat it as much as possible should repeat it as much as possible.

252 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:32:57am

We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.
We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.

253 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:34:25am

re: #251 watching you tiny alien kittens are

254 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:37:40am

re: #251 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Okay they were legally purchased. My question is how were they stored. If they were in a drawer and not locked up with a trigger lock, there might be some issues with that.

255 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:39:59am

re: #253 watching you tiny alien kittens are

256 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:46:56am

Fox now blaming video games, really!

257 kirkspencer  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:48:20am

re: #254 PhillyPretzel

Okay they were legally purchased. My question is how were they stored. If they were in a drawer and not locked up with a trigger lock, there might be some issues with that.

I'm beginning to think that's a red herring. Yes, it was his mother who owned the weapons.

But (most recent reports indicate) he killed his mother at home.

I'm beginning to think we should treat this as:

This nutbar entered the home of a woman, killed her, and stole her guns which he then used to shoot a number of children. He knew the woman so knew about the firearms.

258 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:48:21am

Oh, and autism causing "delusional thinking," kids with autism should all be on involuntary medication!

259 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:51:23am

I have to have a license to drive a car, I have to have a license to fly a plane, I have to have a license to call myself a geologist, I had to have a license to get married. I DON'T need a license for the half dozen guns I own, a couple of which are actual weapons of war. There is something very, very wrong in this picture. Require the damned license, make people prove they are at least sane and know how to handle guns. It is not too much to ask and it does not infringe any kind of rationally defined right. I will be first in line to apply for such a license. We don't do this because a paranoid sub-culture is afraid such a requirement will lead to tyranny. If we are that close to the edge a few million small arms in the hands of mostly ill-trained and disorganized fantasists are not going to help. Enough already. And go screw yourself, Wayne LaPierre, leader of nut cakes and conspiracy believers.

260 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:52:50am

So the Fox solution is to either ban or severely limit video game exposure and rework the video game ratings again. Because obviously playing video games turned this kid into a crack shot and practiced commando!

Oh, and then forcibly medicate anyone appearing abnormal into a state of drooling idiocy of course.

261 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:57:50am

re: #194 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, it's easy for people who live in countries with universal healthcare to grasp how completely fucked and on their own the mentally ill are in the United States.

The mentally ill are fucked everywhere. Universal health care doesn't make that magically better. Humans are still humans, and every country underfunds and undertreats the mentally ill.

The elephant in the room that this nation cannot acknowledge is that here, they have free and easy access to guns. And they have this access because America slavishly worships guns, and values guns over the lives of its children.

But to acknowledge that is taboo, so we can't talk about the elephant in the room. Instead we have to pretend that if only we can achieve the impossible and treat the mentally sick perfectly, the national gun fetish will all be okay.

It's like if every oven in the nation was powered by nitroglycerine, and exploding ovens killed tens of thousands of people every year. And every time it happened, people shrugged and said, 'Well, we've just got to do a better job of inventing cold fusion.'

262 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:57:53am

re: #260 watching you tiny alien kittens are

So the Fox solution is to either ban or severely limit video game exposure and rework the video game ratings again. Because obviously playing video games turned this kid into a crack shot and practiced commando!

Funny how this "logic" isn't applied to, you know, going to a firing range and pretending to shoot someone, then hanging out with your buddies who fantasize about how awesomely competent and brave you'll be when the target isn't paper.

Oh, and then forcibly medicate anyone appearing abnormal into a state of drooling idiocy of course.

Leitmotif #448 in the larger theme of modern American "conservatism": Rights For Me, But Fuck You For Being Different.

263 freetoken  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 4:58:22am

re: #259 Shiplord Kirel

Require the damned license, make people prove they are at least sane and know how to handle guns.

Seems to me to fall under the "well regulated" stipulation.

264 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:00:52am

re: #257 kirkspencer

I'm beginning to think that's a red herring. Yes, it was his mother who owned the weapons.

But (most recent reports indicate) he killed his mother at home.

I'm beginning to think we should treat this as:

This nutbar entered the home of a woman, killed her, and stole her guns which he then used to shoot a number of children. He knew the woman so knew about the firearms.

He did kill his mother at home, he lived there with her. They are saying that the kid was a genius in some ways, just not very socially functional. Even if the guns were locked up in a gun safe or locker (which they might have been) he probably could have (or did) get to them.

265 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:03:57am

They are getting set to start the morning press conference at the shooting scene. Should be starting in the next few minutes.

266 kirkspencer  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:14:02am

Just for reference (from the 2011 CDC deaths report)
Guns and vehicles were the cause of roughly the same number of deaths last year (around 32,000 each).
Drugs killed more (around 44,000) and alcohol a bit less (around 26,000).
Accidental poisonings took another roughly 33,000.
There were over 38,000 suicides. 19,000 of those used firearms (overlaps earlier number), the rest were unspecified (does not overlap accidental poisoning number).

There were 2.5 million deaths last year. The bulk were from disease. Complicated by old age in a lot of cases, but the 'cause' was various diseases.

267 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:14:37am
268 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:16:46am

Well, last night the EDL showed how monstrous they are:

Hel Gower voices approval of Adam Lanza massacre of kids

And the screenshot.

269 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:18:25am

Fox's expert is telling them how cops hate hollow point bullets "because they are designed to penetrate bullet proof vests." Good grief...

Then says that the kid had to have been planning this and had help "to stockpile all the ammo." How does he know the mother didn't have the ammo already stored with the guns?

270 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:21:21am

re: #261 Renaissance_Man

You're very right that it's not just the mere presence of guns it's also the culture. I completely agree with you that mental health is not the panacea solution, partially because some people are perfectly sane and still decide to commit mass murder. Sanity doesn't require adherence to morality.

Anyway, compare us to Swizterland, where they have a lot of guns but also a lot of gun control and very non-machismo, non-vengeance, non-vigilante culture. They have a high rate of suicide deaths and accidents from guns as compared to non-gun-having countries, but they don't have the use of the guns in crimes. So it is possible to have guns and to keep gun violence low. It is not possible to fetishize guns, and to have a society with a permanent criminal underclass created by a prison and ghetto system that starts rolling kids in there as teenagers.

The particular guns used in these murders were legally owned by a person that, even under more restrictive gun control laws, would probably be allowed to have them. They may have been unsecured-- if that's the case, I think it'd be a good idea to push for mandatory gun-safes for all gun-owners. This is present in a number of other countries and helps to prevent a lot of crimes.

But I really think the main reasons we have so much gun violence are the fetishizing of guns and the fetishizing of violence, vigilantism, machismo, along with the stupid-ass drug war and the number of people that sends through our meatgrinder prison system.

271 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:23:01am

I have an idea. Let us look at some of the gun laws that Switzerland and Israel have and see if we can adapt it to our laws and rules. I think licensing would be a good idea.

272 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:39:51am

You just want to see us all guarding the Pope and manning Gaza checkpoints so you can sneak in the back door and take away the rest of our rights...

273 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:40:36am

re: #256 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Fox now blaming video games, really!

Guns don't kill people. Video games kill people.

274 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:41:45am

re: #268 ProMayaLiberal

Well, last night the EDL showed how monstrous they are:

Hel Gower voices approval of Adam Lanza massacre of kids

And the screenshot.

Charles needs to see that. Everybody Rec it.

275 Archangelus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:42:54am

The gun law in Israel would astonish many: Very few are allowed them. With all of the troubles it has to deal with, and the threats going around, less than 1% of the Israeli population has access to guns.
You need special permission to be allowed one - excluding the military of course, but even there, most of the soldiers do NOT carry weapons on them as many would think. Most soldiers in the IDF are non-combatants, and at best estimates you'd have ~5000 of them carrying weapons out of deployment, including officers. For non military, only few of those living in areas defined as risky are permitted to own a gun, and there are strict limitations on carrying them.
At an all time high estimate, you'd have less than 40,000 people in a country of more than 6 million that have access to weapons.

And here's the important part of all IMO (as someone who served and carried himself): EVERYONE has to undergo lots of mandatory instruction before being allowed them, with quite a few hours dedicated to teaching how and when weapons should never be used. Almost a decade later, I STILL remember the vids I was shown presenting the results of weapon mishandling/accidental weapon fire very vividly (and they weren't even remotely graphic either).
Any one who wants or needs a weapon, in a country surrounded by terror threats, HAS to go through these. No exceptions. NONE.
And with figures showing only a few dozen firearm death per year (most of which are due to fighting between Israeli mob families, mind you), the statistics don't lie.

276 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:42:56am

Funny, 'cause restricting video games (and even things like paintball or laser tag games) is a very European thing: there are lots of US video games that are banned here, they see it as the "slippery slope" to real gun violence.

Expect tons smoke-and-mirrors deflection tactics in the coming week, they are just hoping that we will move on to the next celebrity scandal and forget about this tragedy...

277 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:49:20am

re: #270 Obdicut

But I really think the main reasons we have so much gun violence are the fetishizing of guns and the fetishizing of violence, vigilantism, machismo, along with the stupid-ass drug war and the number of people that sends through our meatgrinder prison system.

The only thing I'd add is easy access to guns.

278 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:50:43am

Living large in America! Big guns! Big trucks! Big attitude! Yeeehaaaa!
I literally killed for this country and this bullshit parody of redneck pop culture is what I get for it in my old age.
Nature and the laws of survival will not long tolerate the kind of crazy destructive culture we have in this country right now. There will be a reckoning and a cleansing.

279 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:54:26am

re: #277 Kronocide

The only thing I'd add is easy access to guns.

Sure. But we have easy access to guns because we fetishize them and act as though they're totems of freedom and realistic self-defense weapons etc.

280 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:55:28am

It is also heakening back to some idealized view of Minutemen and Yankee settlers, yeoman farmers and frontiersmen that was already an idealistic vision in Jefferson's time.

I can accept the SCOTUS decision that bearing arms is an individual right, not just for militias, but the "well-regulated" part of it still gets short shrift in our approach to gun legislation.

281 Archangelus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:55:53am

re: #277 Kronocide

The only thing I'd add is easy access to guns.

I'd toss in the lack of any genuine weaponry instruction worth a damn. I would not have any problem with the sale of any weapons if it meant that, like in Israel, you HAD to undergo training which also showed you the dangerous consequences. Hell, why can't we have that? We have to have lessons to drive before we're permitted to get a license to use a car, don't we? I think weapons of war and death should merit at least the same obligation.

I always use the Israel Argument: if a country surrounded by threats of terror and war doesn't need so much guns and handles things better, what's our excuse?

282 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:57:05am

This is harsh, but: I don't trust the public figures that talk big about the 2nd Amendment in this country. Most of them are (1) contemptuous of the other civil liberties--and legislate and lobby accordingly--as well as (2) speak often about large demographic sectors of population that they view as "not really American."

I'll go farther and say that a lot of folks--your Huckabees, Breitbarts, and Nugents--really only support the 2nd Amendment because they imagine themselves as counter-cultural figures...specifically, revolutionaries in waiting...and have crafted a mythos in which their manly handling of guns contrasts with effeminate liberal disdain of them (and YES there is a giant gender-essentialist component to it). Were these people in power, given all their wild imagining of who's destroying or corrupting this country, does it really seem like they would allow liberals, homosexuals, and non-Christians to have easy access to guns?

283 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:58:18am

re: #282 The Ghost of a Flea

It goes without saying that they only want to see guns in the "right" hands...

284 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:58:24am

Grumble grumble, boy this 8:00am press conference sure is late, I almost feel sorry for all the reporters clustered around the podium. They have been standing out there in the cold for well over an hour now.

285 Archangelus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 5:58:26am

Thinking of making a post dedicated to the Israeli stats and comparing them to US weapon possession and use... I for one find the differences to be mind-boggling...

286 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:01:57am

re: #285 Archangelus

Thinking of making a post dedicated to the Israeli stats and comparing them to US weapon possession and use... I for one find the differences to be mind-boggling...

I'd really appreciate that.

287 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:04:55am

Good grief the press just keeps changing the story, how much shit did they make up out of thin air yesterday?

Now they are saying that the shooter was not buzzed into the school, something I must have heard about a thousand times in the last 24 hours. The new story is that he just broke or shot the glass out of the door and walked in. I thought it was strange that the first cop on scene reported the glass broken out of the doors on the 911 tape. I just wrote it off to being from stray bullets maybe...

288 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:06:12am

This is what the 24-hour rule is about...news agencies do not have one, they just repeat whatever scraps of information they pick up...

289 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:06:14am

re: #276 Sol Berdinowitz

Funny, 'cause that's a very European thing: there are lots of US video games that are banned here, they see it as the "slippery slope" to real gun violence.

Expect tons smoke-and-mirrors deflection tactics in the coming week, they are just hoping that we will move on to the next celebrity scandal and forget about this tragedy...

The other thing is that European countries may regulate guns fairly heavily but it's still quite possible to own them. I was reading the other day, at a gun site, a thread by a German national about the Colt revolver he'd just bought. Another time, I read how it's legal to own full-auto weapons in Belgium with registration. The Belgian's can actually own bigger guns than _we_ can in one of those delightful moments of irony.

I do believe England and Australia both over reacted and I do not wish to see that here. But there are plenty of other European examples - Czech Republic, Finland, Germany, Switzerland, and so on - that show that there is a place where regulation does not have to be too onerous to allow for sporting, hunting & even self-defense firearms.

The other thing to remember, however, is that even with fairly harsh gun control, you can still have high gun and other violent crime. See Brazil and elsewhere.

290 Khorramdin  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:08:53am

If there is so much misinformation and confusion in the aftermath of shooting in the US, imagine how it would be in a far off land, say in Benghazi.

291 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:10:35am

re: #274 Kronocide

Charles needs to see that. Everybody Rec it.

I would also suggest someone send that to Pam Gellar as well, with a little caption reading "Nice friends you got there. Stay classy, Pam."

Sick f***s.

292 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:11:25am

In talking to gun cultists, I've learned that many of them do not take their usual stated reasons for scary black gun ownership seriously. They don't really believe in UN occupation or resisting tyranny. What they eventually admit they want the SBGs for is to mow down loot-crazed hordes of "others" in the event of riots or a general breakdown of civil order. Even that, though, is not the core of the onion, there are more layers beneath that one. Why, for example, do you need a fast-firing, high capacity gun to resist looters? Wouldn't popping a couple of them with an old fashioned shotgun persuade the rest to hightail it away? Or are they some kind of fanatical army, who will keep on coming until all are dead? I have not talked to any loot-crazed rioters, but I am pretty sure that is not how they would react to violent resistance. The real purpose, I submit, is to make sure you bag as many of the "others" as possible, once and for all, when the chance finally presents itself.

293 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:12:32am

re: #289 William Barnett-Lewis

there are plenty of other European examples - Czech Republic, Finland, Germany, Switzerland, and so on - that show that there is a place where regulation does not have to be too onerous to allow for sporting, hunting & even self-defense firearms.

The other thing to remember, however, is that even with fairly harsh gun control, you can still have high gun and other violent crime. See Brazil and elsewhere.

Heck, here in Germany, I went down to the local gun club for their open house day and fired off a cap-and-ball pistol just because I was curious to see how they handled...

294 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:13:29am

Fox conservative entertainment media is running with their set narrative...

Now is not the time to talk about knee jerk gun controls or regulations, now is the time to talk about mental health issues. How are we going to identify these sick individuals and force them into treatment and heavily medicate them?

It isn't about guns at all you see, it is about mentally ill people.

295 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:18:08am

re: #290 Khorramdin

If there is so much misinformation and confusion in the aftermath of shooting in the US, imagine how it would be in a far off land, say in Benghazi.

That sounds like your just trying to make excuses for the Obama cover-up that is worser than watergate and iran-Contra combined...because!
BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI!!1!!11!

/

296 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:19:26am

re: #292 Shiplord Kirel

In talking to gun cultists, I've learned that many of them do not take their usual stated reasons for scary black gun ownership seriously. They don't really believe in UN occupation or resisting tyranny. What they eventually admit they want the SBGs for is to mow down loot-crazed hordes of "others" in the event of riots or a general breakdown of civil order. Even that, though, is not the core of the onion, there are more layers beneath that one. Why, for example, do you need a fast-firing, high capacity gun to resist looters? Wouldn't popping a couple of them with an old fashioned shotgun persuade the rest to hightail it away? Or are they some kind of fanatical army, who will keep on coming until all are dead? I have not talked to any loot-crazed rioters, but I am pretty sure that is not how they would react to violent resistance. The real purpose, I submit, is to make sure you bag as many of the "others" as possible, once and for all, when the chance finally presents itself.

Freeper/Sipsey Street terminology is "SHTF gun". The craving for SHTF is obvious.

297 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:21:29am

Ot, in the case of an argument, an STFU gun

298 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:22:11am

I've been seeing assertions that 'mass shootings have been declining since 1975' and the like. Recently saw graphs that showed them holding steady, if not a slight uptick.

299 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:23:53am

re: #294 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Fox conservative entertainment media is running with their set narrative...

It isn't about guns at all you see, it is about mentally ill people.

I have no words.

300 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:24:07am

re: #293 Sol Berdinowitz

Heck, here in Germany, I went down to the local gun club for their open house day and fired off a cap-and-ball pistol just because I was curious to see how they handled...

German hunting firearms - Blaser & Krieghoff among others - remain some of the finest (and expensive ;) in the world. I'd love a Krieghoff 2x20/1x9.3x74 drilling with a good Zeiss scope. I'd never need another hunting firearm again.

But these companies exist because there is still a market despite the restrictions in place.

I'm really coming more and more to the idea of tying gun ownership to a national ID/driver's license with a mandatory training class in High School as well as requirements for keeping the guns secure (especially since the last two and many other incidents involve stolen guns) with serious penalties for failure.

301 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:26:32am

re: #296 Decatur Deb

Freeper/Sipsey Street terminology is "SHTF gun". The craving for SHTF is obvious.

That is the real origin of Zombies in the gun culture. All zombies are black or brown or yellow and the only thing to do is shoot them. Even more disgusting are the companies pandering to this. I no longer buy Hornady products since they came out with their "anti-zombie" ammunition brand.

302 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:27:37am

re: #292 Shiplord Kirel

Why, for example, do you need a fast-firing, high capacity gun to resist looters? Wouldn't popping a couple of them with an old fashioned shotgun persuade the rest to hightail it away? Or are they some kind of fanatical army, who will keep on coming until all are dead?

At the core of the post-collapse gun fantasy are a lot of presumptions that recapitulate existing privilege and prejudice. Gun owner/survivalist types posit themselves as the rational "civilized" and that everyone else will descend into barbarism post-collapse because that's how they already view themselves versus the "other." The pleasure comes from the projected confirmation that their tribal distinctions and subsequent prejudices about race, politics, religion, et cetera wil be true...they will be strong and organized and win, and the "other" will be wicked and incompetent and lose.

More scarily, it's also taking the fantasy of having a legitimate excuse to be violent towards people you don't like and cranking it up to eliminationist levels. It's taking existing political rhetoric and making it literal: there's an existential threat that can only be dealt with by wiping out the opposition.

303 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:29:02am

re: #302 The Ghost of a Flea

It's taking existing political rhetoric and making it literal: there's an existential threat that can only be dealt with by wiping out the opposition.

Yes, that has been the GOP's core philosphy, all this talk about drowning government in a bathtub...

304 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:31:12am

re: #269 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Fox's expert is telling them how cops hate hollow point bullets "because they are designed to penetrate bullet proof vests." Good grief...

Then says that the kid had to have been planning this and had help "to stockpile all the ammo." How does he know the mother didn't have the ammo already stored with the guns?

How dumb do you have to be to fail to understand that a bullet that flattens out on impact isn't going to be very good at punching through armor. But then again Fox denies climate change, so why should they understand any other parts of physics?

305 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:32:33am

re: #302 The Ghost of a Flea

At the core of the post-collapse gun fantasy are a lot of presumptions that recapitulate existing privilege structures. Gun owner/survivalist types posit themselves as the rational "civilized" and that everyone else will descend into barbarism post-collapse because that's how they already view themselves versus the "other." The pleasure comes from the projected confirmation that their tribal distinctions and subsequent prejudices about race, politics, religion, et cetera wil be true...they will be strong and organized and win, and the "other" will be wicked and incompetent and lose.

More scarily, it's also taking the fantasy of having a legitimate excuse to be violent towards people you don't like and cranking it up to eliminationist levels. It's taking existing political rhetoric and making it literal: there's an existential threat that can only be dealt with by wiping out the opposition.

Their thinking goes back at least as far as the 1950's fallout shelter fad, through the Clinton-era militias, Y2K survivalists, and now the Preppers. Earlier than that it blends into the frontier Injun fighter mentality. We've always had them.

306 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:35:37am

re: #305 Decatur Deb

Their thinking goes back at least as far as the 1950's fallout shelter fad, through the Clinton-era militias, Y2K survivalists, and now the Preppers. Earlier than that it blends into the frontier Injun fighter mentality. We've always had them.

Go back farther and you find the persistent scare-mongering and collapse fantasy about slave rebellions. Which are eerily reminiscent of the Freeper fantasies about how "urban minority youth" will turn into a violent mindless mob that has to be shot down, should welfare ever end.

307 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:35:45am

re: #288 Sol Berdinowitz

This is what the 24-hour rule is about...news agencies do not have one, they just repeat whatever scraps of information they pick up...

News agencies can't have 24-hour rule, or they'd risk getting scooped. Understand that on this point there's never been any 'golden period of media prudence' and in a free press society there never will be. For a news outlet, keeping up with important stories and breaking new aspects of them is is of crucial importance, it is something they cannot afford not to do.

308 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:36:19am

re: #306 The Ghost of a Flea

Go back farther and you find the persistent scare-mongering and collapse fantasy about slave rebellions. Which are eerily reminiscent of the Freeper fantasies about how "urban minority youth" will turn into a violent mindless mob that has to be shot down, should welfare ever end.

Yeah--the Nat Turner Effect.

309 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:36:28am

re: #292 Shiplord Kirel

SBG?

310 ReamWorks SKG  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:36:35am

The slipperiness of the schoolteachers who split hairs by saying "We've never heard of a teacher named Ms. Lanza" is disturbing.

Lanza did work at the school, as the NY Times has been consistently reporting

This morning's updated report in the NY Times:

The lock system did not go into effect until 9:30 each morning, according to a letter to parents from the principal, Dawn Hochsprung, that was posted on several news Web sites. The letter was apparently written earlier in the school year.

It was Ms. Hochsprung, who recognized Mr. Lanza because his mother worked at the school, who let him in on Friday. Sometime later, she heard shots and went to see what was going on.

The fact is, a Sandy Hook employee supplied the weapons and the means for this massacre to happen. Expect taxpayers to pay out big settlements to the families of the victims once the judgements are determined.

311 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:36:46am

Press conference now re-scheduled to start "within half an hour"...

Fox is also reporting that at least one additional firearm was found inside the school besides the two pistols we knew about.

312 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:37:55am

re: #307 Dark_Falcon

News agencies can't have 24-hour rule, or they'd risk getting scooped. Understand that on this point there's never been any 'golden period of media prudence' and in a free press society there never will be. For a news outlet, keeping up with important stories and breaking new aspects of them is is of crucial importance, it is something they cannot afford not to do.

I'd subscribe to a service with the motto: "Always last, always right". Yesterday's news cycle was a disgrace.

313 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:40:04am

re: #306 The Ghost of a Flea

Go back farther and you find the persistent scare-mongering and collapse fantasy about slave rebellions. Which are eerily reminiscent of the Freeper fantasies about how "urban minority youth" will turn into a violent mindless mob that has to be shot down, should welfare ever end.

True enough though the fear didn't take off for real until Nat Turner's Rebellion. Before that they believed the slaves were too downtrodden to fight back meaningfully. After that it became the normal mode of thinking throughout the deep south.

314 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:41:54am

re: #306 The Ghost of a Flea

Go back farther and you find the persistent scare-mongering and collapse fantasy about slave rebellions. Which are eerily reminiscent of the Freeper fantasies about how "urban minority youth" will turn into a violent mindless mob that has to be shot down, should welfare ever end.

You're quite right. Freeper fantasies regarding civilizational collapse are manifestations of the most delusional thinking. Also, don't forget their equally delusional "Red Dawn" fantasies and their fantasies regarding overthrowing the Federal government by violent force.

315 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:42:03am

Fox back to video games again just now...because that is obviously how he became a crack shot with a gun, by shooting things on a screen with a game controller.

316 ReamWorks SKG  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:42:09am

re: #292 Shiplord Kirel

I'm actually worried about a SHTF scenario, too. Which is why, for example, we have bulletproof doors in our Florida home (it's really an incremental step above hurricane rated doors). But my plan is to simply GTFO and not stay and fight. I don't own guns.

317 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:42:19am

re: #306 The Ghost of a Flea

Go back farther and you find the persistent scare-mongering and collapse fantasy about slave rebellions. Which are eerily reminiscent of the Freeper fantasies about how "urban minority youth" will turn into a violent mindless mob that has to be shot down, should welfare ever end.

That's funny because you'd think that would make them fans of the welfare state. But they'd have to be closer to sane to understand that. Because saner people would know that having 'your guys' kill 'the others' in large numbers is something extremely undesirable, because it will change your people into something far worse and they'll be seen as worse by others. You can't simply indulge your killing fantasy and be done with it, even for psychopaths it doesn't work like that.

318 ReamWorks SKG  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:44:24am

NY Times printed a correction!

Correction: December 15, 2012

An earlier version of this article suggested that the gunman in the Connecticut shooting used a rifle to carry out the shootings inside the Sandy Hook Elementary School. In fact, according to law enforcement, the guns used in the school shooting were both handguns.

319 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:44:49am

...

320 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:44:58am

re: #312 Decatur Deb

I'd subscribe to a service with the motto: "Always last, always right". Yesterday's news cycle was a disgrace.

You'd do that, but most people wouldn't especially not when they fear for the safety of their loved ones. Moreover, there are some times, such as during some types of disaster, when delaying till you can confirm things may get people killed.

321 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:45:08am

re: #308 Decatur Deb

Yeah--the Nat Turner Effect.

Toussant L'Ouverture being the other boogey man.

I'm actually listening to a book called Bound for Canaan: The Underground Railroad. The actual rescue stories are amazing and uplifting, but the accounts of the arbitrary personal violence that led to individual slaves taking the huge risk of escape are hard slogging. And even worse are the accounts of coordinated group violence against free blacks and slaves both. For example, everyone knows how terrible Nat Turner was, but don't talk about the insane retaliatory violence...rape, murder, and burnings...that Southern whites committed in response. Which they also did after the uncovering of the plots by Gabriel Prosser and Denmark Vessy: even before Turner's Rebellion the slightly hint of a slave conspiracy was met with arbitrary executions, brutal violence, and sexual assault.

322 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:45:29am

re: #317 Dark_Falcon

You can't simply indulge your killing fantasy and be done with it, even for psychopaths it doesn't work like that.

I'm reminded of the movie "The Searchers" as it's one of the few movies that has ever dealt with this problem in an adult manner.

323 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:47:16am

re: #319 TedStriker

It's never surprising when stuff like this brings the nutjobs and sockpuppets out to play.

BTW, Jocko, get fucked.

Keep reading. He admitted he goofed and it appears from subsequent posts that 'Jocko' isn't a troll. He appears to have made an honest mistake.

Sometimes the trolls make us regular lizards somewhat trigger-happy.

324 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:47:23am

re: #316 ReamWorks SKG

I'm actually worried about a SHTF scenario, too. Which is why, for example, we have bulletproof doors in our Florida home (it's really an incremental step above hurricane rated doors). But my plan is to simply GTFO and not stay and fight. I don't own guns.

It's rather unlikely that you have bulletproof walls in a normally-constructed home. My definition of SHTF would be the revival of white supremicist control of the local police and judiciary. Chances are less than 1:10000.

325 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:47:56am

re: #294 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Fox conservative entertainment media is running with their set narrative...

It isn't about guns at all you see, it is about mentally ill people.

With access to guns.

Fox News, go back to spooning with LaPierre and the NRA...

326 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:49:17am

re: #310 ReamWorks SKG

The slipperiness of the schoolteachers who split hairs by saying "We've never heard of a teacher named Ms. Lanza" is disturbing.

Lanza did work at the school, as the NY Times has been consistently reporting

This morning's updated report in the NY Times:

The fact is, a Sandy Hook employee supplied the weapons and the means for this massacre to happen. Expect taxpayers to pay out big settlements to the families of the victims once the judgements are determined.

Well...except that some are now reporting that he was not buzzed in at all but simply broke out the glass in a window next to the front doors...

If true* that will be a lawsuit liability, installing a video camera and electric lock on the door offers no protection unless you replace the glass with laminated impact resistant glass.

*(On the 911 tapes I have heard on the news the first officer on the scene reported the front entrance glass being broken out.)

327 ReamWorks SKG  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:49:54am

re: #324 Decatur Deb

No, just doors. A little protection against an armed assailant trying to get in if I'm answering the door. And a massive steel door frame to prevent kick-ins.

From this company: [Link: www.nabulletproof.com...]

328 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:50:53am

re: #321 The Ghost of a Flea

Toussant L'Ouverture being the other boogey man.

I'm actually listening to a book called Bound for Canaan: The Underground Railroad. The actual rescue stories are amazing and uplifting, but the accounts of the arbitrary personal violence that led to individual slaves taking the huge risk of escape are hard slogging. And even worse are the accounts of coordinated group violence against free blacks and slaves both. For example, everyone knows how terrible Nat Turner was, but don't talk about the insane retaliatory violence...rape, murder, and burnings...that Southern whites committed in response. Which they also did after the uncovering of the plots by Gabriel Prosser and Denmark Vessy: even before Turner's Rebellion the slightly hint of a slave conspiracy was met with arbitrary executions, brutal violence, and sexual assault.

Are you up on the other (earlier) Underground Railroad, the one that went to the Negro Fort/Fort Gadsden area in Spanish Florida? Went bad.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

329 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:51:55am

Forget mental health and gun control! Let the militarization of elementary schools begin!

Wish I was kidding but I can see that as an answer by Muricans.

330 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:52:50am

re: #315 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Fox back to video games again just now...because that is obviously how he became a crack shot with a gun, by shooting things on a screen with a game controller.

Who's their expert on this, Jack Thompson?

331 ReamWorks SKG  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:53:35am

Ok! I need to get dressed for Shul! Happy Hanukkah everyone. (And don't tell G-d I was on the computer this AM)

332 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:55:48am

re: #318 ReamWorks SKG

NY Times printed a correction!

The rifle was found in the car, he did not take it in.

I'm wondering what the other weapon Fox is saying was found inside the school was, if it even exists that is...

333 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:57:21am

re: #329 Gus

Forget mental health and gun control! Let the militarization of elementary schools begin!

Wish I was kidding but I can see that as an answer by Muricans.

This "Israeli" approach is featured on one of the major gun nut sites today:

Image: Israeli_teacher_with_her_class%2B%25282%2529.jpg

334 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:57:31am

re: #319 TedStriker

It's never surprising when stuff like this brings the nutjobs and sockpuppets out to play.

Calm down, he was being sarcastic, and he apologized later. ;)

335 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:59:19am

re: #316 ReamWorks SKG

I'm actually worried about a SHTF scenario, too. Which is why, for example, we have bulletproof doors in our Florida home (it's really an incremental step above hurricane rated doors). But my plan is to simply GTFO and not stay and fight. I don't own guns.

Every once in awhile I get freaked out about the SHTF scenario precisely because I'm surrounded by Christian nationalists and/or Neo-Confederates with guns. I have a giant Buddha in the yard and a house full of Hindu idols.

re: #328 Decatur Deb

Are you up on the other (earlier) Underground Railroad, the one that went to the Negro Fort/Fort Gadsden area in Spanish Florida? Went bad.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It's mentioned in the book, which is structured such that it's trying to explain the larger complex patterns of slave escapes and individuals and allies that helped with escapes in different periods in US history. The introduction pretty much says outright: "everybody knows the Underground Railroad, here's the story of the much bigger phenomenon of which the Underground Railroad acts as a synedoche."

It's not a subject I can claim great familiarity with, though my childhood recollections of the story of Harriet Tubman have always had a powerful effect on my ethical understanding of prejudice and race. I'm maybe a third of the way through, and I'd really recommend it. The individual narratives are very moving, and also jab a stick in the eye of a lot of the common, lazy tropes that explain away US slavery as benign.

336 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:59:25am

re: #331 ReamWorks SKG

And Happy Hanukkah to you and yours. Shalom Aleichem.

337 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 6:59:58am

re: #333 Decatur Deb

This "Israeli" approach is featured on one of the major gun nut sites today:

Image: Israeli_teacher_with_her_class%2B%25282%2529.jpg

Yes. And you can see by her gun position that she's ready to defend her class at any second! //

338 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:00:30am

re: #328 Decatur Deb

Are you up on the other (earlier) Underground Railroad, the one that went to the Negro Fort/Fort Gadsden area in Spanish Florida? Went bad.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

No kidding. Though given that the so called 'Negro Fort' was sited along a river, there was no way Andrew Jackson was going to just 'let it be'. A hostile fort choked off all commerce and settlement along a river, since no commercial traffic could pass it without permission. But even so, the fort's end via magazine explosion was horrible. Ammunition explosions are always a horror.

339 iossarian  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:00:30am

re: #329 Gus

Forget mental health and gun control! Let the militarization of elementary schools begin!

Wish I was kidding but I can see that as an answer by Muricans.

It's not so long ago that people on here were suggesting that I arm myself at work to protect myself (during the debate on allowing guns into higher ed institutions).

340 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:01:47am

re: #339 iossarian

It's not so long ago that people on here were suggesting that I arm myself at work to protect myself (during the debate on allowing guns into higher ed institutions).

I should probably bring a gun every time I go out to have a cigarette on the front porch! //

341 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:02:48am

re: #333 Decatur Deb

This "Israeli" approach is featured on one of the major gun nut sites today:

Image: Israeli_teacher_with_her_class%2B%25282%2529.jpg

Which they'll love right up until they see the Israel laws about gun ownership. Basically, unless you're either active or reservist military, police, or live in the settlements, you can't own a gun. Even if you can obtain a permit, it's one permit good for one gun, either a handgun or a rifle is you're active military, and the permit is matched to the gun. And part of the process of obtaining a permit is submitting to a mental health evaluation, which meas if they have any reason to believe you're not safe with a gun, you'll be denied.

342 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:02:48am

They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! They're not crazy! //

343 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:03:28am

re: #341 Targetpractice

Which they'll love right up until they see the Israel laws about gun ownership. Basically, unless you're either active or reservist military, police, or live in the settlements, you can't own a gun. Even if you can obtain a permit, it's one permit good for one gun, either a handgun or a rifle is you're active military, and the permit is matched to the gun. And part of the process of obtaining a permit is submitting to a mental health evaluation, which meas if they have any reason to believe you're not safe with a gun, you'll be denied.

That photo is probably from within a contested settlement too. You won't see that in Tel Aviv.

344 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:03:56am

re: #337 Gus

Yes. And you can see by her gun position that she's ready to defend her class at any second! //

She is, but that's because she's required to. That's a field trip picture, where they're required to have armed teachers or guards for every so many children. Can you imagine the screams if you had school teachers here in the US going into public museums, visibly armed?

345 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:04:53am

I always love the way some people squirm whenever you say some of these mass shooters are crazy. Americans are especially prone to the rejection of mental illness. They do this because they think if you call them crazy you can't convict them and then they don't get to live out the blood lust of the death penalty.

346 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:05:21am

re: #338 Dark_Falcon

No kidding. Though given that the so called 'Negro Fort' was sited along a river, there was no way Andrew Jackson was going to just 'let it be'. A hostile fort choked off all commerce and settlement along a river, since no commercial traffic could pass it without permission. But even so, the fort's end via magazine explosion was horrible. Ammunition explosions are always a horror.

The British ex-slave recruiting into the Colonial Marines is very interesting. A recent article talked of about a dozen or so of George Washington's slaves taking advantage of a British general's Emancipation Proclamation. (Slate, I think.)

347 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:06:17am

re: #344 Targetpractice

She is, but that's because she's required to. That's a field trip picture, where they're required to have armed teachers or guards for every so many children. Can you imagine the screams if you had school teachers here in the US going into public museums, visibly armed?

Yeah. Frankly, I don't give a crap what they do in Israel. Tired of these gentile rednecks bringing up Israel at every turn. They talk about Israel yet they've never met a Jew in their entire lives.

348 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:09:48am

The NRA's answer is more gunz! IOW, America will thus engage in its own arm race. Pathetic.

349 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:10:12am

There are 300 million plus guns out there.

The guns used in the shooting were legally purchased and were not 'carried around'. It took a bad/sick guy 5 minutes to turn those legally purchased weapons into instruments of horror.

Unless you take away all those guns how can you prevent this kind of thing from happening again?

350 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:10:21am

re: #347 Gus

Yeah. Frankly, I don't give a crap what they do in Israel. Tired of these gentile rednecks bringing up Israel at every turn. They talk about Israel yet they've never met a Jew in their entire lives.

I sort of hated watching 19-yr old girls in blue jeans drop their M16s in Ramat Gan mall. Makes a very disconcerting rattle when they hit the terrazzo.

351 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:10:29am

You know what else they have in Israel?

Single payer health care.

352 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:12:14am

So if we can't talk about 'knee jerk' gun restrictions in the aftermath of tragedy, and we have these every couple of weeks, when can we talk about them?

re: #349 researchok

Unless you take away all those guns how can you prevent this kind of thing from happening again?

Correct.

353 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:12:21am

re: #347 Gus

Yeah. Frankly, I don't give a crap what they do in Israel. Tired of these gentile rednecks bringing up Israel at every turn. They talk about Israel yet they've never met a Jew in their entire lives.

They look at Israel because they like the superficial appearance, not the structure underneath it. For example, although Israelis don't have a hang-up about carrying weapons openly or making a distinction about semi and fully auto weapons, they also don't view gun ownership as a right. Guns are not seen as penis extensions, they're seen as tools, whose usage should be limited to those who are trained and trusted to wield them for the defense of everyone else. To them, the idea of owning a hand cannon just to have something to show off to friends is not just pointless, it's dangerous.

It's a bit like why they also like the Swiss approach to reservists being allowed to keep their rifles for the 30 years they're on reserve, ignoring the reality that the rifles are supposed to kept under lock and key except for maintenance. That reservists are issued a limited number of rounds for defending themselves while they go between their homes and military installations. The rounds are to be kept sealed and are inspected regularly by military officials. You want to train, you can go to the practice course, but they keep watch on what you check out and make sure you're not sneaking out unspent rounds. Likewise, at the end of your service, you're allowed to keep the rifle, but it has to be sent back to the factory to have the full-auto capability removed.

354 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:12:31am

re: #350 Decatur Deb

I sort of hated watching 19-yr old girls in blue jeans drop their M16s in Ramat Gan mall. Makes a very disconcerting rattle when they hit the terrazzo.

Prepare for the militarization of America grade schools any second now. That's America's answer to everything.

355 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:13:41am

re: #349 researchok

There are 300 million plus guns out there.

The guns used in the shooting were legally purchased and were not 'carried around'. It took a bad/sicjk guy 5 minutes to turn those legally purchased weapons into instruments of horror.

Unless you take away all those guns how can you prevent this kind of thing from happening again?

You can't and those guns aren't going away. We might cut down on the number of school shootings, but they are going to keep happening at times. The social realities of America guarantee it.

356 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:13:49am

re: #354 Gus

I wish that were a joke.

357 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:15:03am

Press conference starting now...

358 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:15:10am

re: #354 Gus

Prepare for the militarization of America grade schools any second now. That's America's answer to everything.

Much too late, in my case:

Image: LoretoToner61.JPG

359 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:15:33am

re: #356 researchok

I wish that were a joke.

A SWAT team for every school! Just to prevent the 1/100,000,000 chance. We can model this after the TSA. Think of it as another Post Office like security administration run by the federal government. It can be like jobs. Green jobs. //

360 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:15:34am

re: #355 Dark_Falcon

I know it's unpopular to say it but the gun/violence culture here is a big, big part of the problem.

And Gus is right- we'll respond by armed school guards.

361 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:15:58am

re: #345 Gus

I always love the way some people squirm whenever you say some of these mass shooters are crazy. Americans are especially prone to the rejection of mental illness. They do this because they think if you call them crazy you can't convict them and then they don't get to live out the blood lust of the death penalty.

I would quibble because crazy is a meaningless term that has more to do with the stigma of mental illness than actual diagnosis, and because lots of "crazy" folks are no threat to anyone...but I agree with you about the bloodlust and finding excuses for the death penalty part.

I don't think it's as simple as "mass shooters have a mental illness": neither mood spectrum disorders, nor even delusional disorders alone, explain the phenomenon, though they may have a compounding or force multiplying effect. My personal suspicion is that it's a matter of low empathy...which is not really a mental illness...paired with disinhibition. Mental illness is one possible source of disinhibition, but a persistent personality disorder (what used to be classified in DSM-IV as an Axis 2 disorder) or even chronic stress could have the same effect.

362 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:16:10am

re: #359 Gus

I didn't want to laugh.

I did.

363 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:16:52am

re: #358 Decatur Deb

Much too late, in my case:

Image: LoretoToner61.JPG

Where are you here?

364 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:18:16am

re: #363 Gus

Where are you here?

That's a class or two below me. The nuns are mine, not those priests.

365 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:18:16am

re: #354 Gus

Prepare for the militarization of America grade schools any second now. That's America's answer to everything.

Samsung makes an armed guard robot, only $200K each plus control room costs. It would be irresponsible not to have lethal robots with automatic tracking capability at every school.

366 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:18:32am

re: #360 researchok

I know it's unpopular to say it but the gun/violence culture here is a big, big part of the problem.

And Gus is right- we'll respond by armed school guards.

That really is a major part of it. All the cultures the gun cultists look at and idealize have nothing approaching the gun culture we maintain here in the states. Most view guns as evil, even if a necessary one, and don't feel that the average citizen has a right to one. The majority require you to show a real, verifiable need for a gun just to be considered for a permit, no such thing as "shall-issue." If you aren't an avid hunter or see danger regularly in the line of duty, then you aren't viewed as needing a gun.

367 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:19:22am

re: #365 goddamnedfrank

Samsung makes an armed guard robot, only $200K each plus control room costs. It would be irresponsible not to have lethal robots with automatic tracking capability at every school.

Sounds good. We should also have a Predator drone at every school, Patriot missile batteries, and an Iron Dome.

368 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:19:48am

re: #354 Gus

Prepare for the militarization of America grade schools any second now. That's America's answer to everything.

Militarization?

No, no. This is clearly a situation where the government should subcontract to private security forces. Private industries are always more efficient, so the federal government should just get out its checkbook (again).

369 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:20:37am

re: #368 The Ghost of a Flea

Militarization?

No, no. This is clearly a situation where the government should subcontract to private security forces. Private industries are always more efficient, so the federal government should just get out its checkbook (again).

It will be only be used to defend the students. //

370 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:21:11am

Should probably have a water boarding station at every school too.

371 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:21:35am

re: #369 Gus

It will be only be used to defend the students. //

Corrections Corporation of America would be thrilled to help US schools with their security issues.

372 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:21:37am

They just confirmed that he broke the glass to enter the school, the shooter was not let in voluntarily.

373 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:22:32am

re: #371 The Ghost of a Flea

Corrections Corporation of America would be thrilled to help US schools with their security issues.

It would simplify the school to prison pipeline nationwide. Think of the profits. //

374 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:22:51am

Companies spend millions of dollars on advertising to influence your purchasing behavior, year in and year out.

This is done by way of 30 second to one minute TV ads or print ads or radio ads.

Obviously, it works or the companies would not keep on spending those big dollars.

Think of amount of time kids spend on watching/interacting with gratuitous violence.

Is that interaction the only reason for violence? Of course not.

However when a group of people share that 'culture', there will inevitably be some unintended consequences.

The impact of the group dynamic cannot be understated on an individuals' behavior.

375 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:22:59am

re: #365 goddamnedfrank

Samsung makes an armed guard robot, only $200K each plus control room costs. It would be irresponsible not to have lethal robots with automatic tracking capability at every school.

There are plenty of American companies that make robots that can be armed. You want US school districts to buy robots from Samsung instead of robots from Real Americans?! Do you just hate America, or are the Koreans paying to sell us out?!

376 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:23:08am

re: #370 Gus

Should probably have a water boarding station at every school too.

Seems a little drastic just to find out who took the milk money...

377 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:24:03am

re: #358 Decatur Deb

Much too late, in my case:

Image: LoretoToner61.JPG

You were a trend setter.

Toight, like a toiger!

378 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:24:03am

re: #228 dragonath

IBM supercomputer used to simulate a typical human brain

Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, doesn't it?

Did they ask the IT Igor whose brain it was simulating?

379 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:26:26am

re: #360 researchok

I know it's unpopular to say it but the gun/violence culture here is a big, big part of the problem.

And Gus is right- we'll respond by armed school guards.

Already have in a lot of places, all schools in my county have a police officer present during school hours, the large high schools have more than one. Been that way for years now already.

380 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:27:17am

re: #322 William Barnett-Lewis

I'm reminded of the movie "The Searchers" as it's one of the few movies that has ever dealt with this problem in an adult manner.

My favorite movie of all time.

That'll be the day.

381 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:28:09am

re: #379 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Already have in a lot of places, all schools in my county have a police officer present during school hours, the large high schools have more than one. Been that way for years now already.

Same here - both in Madison & up here in podunk Hayward.

382 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:28:24am

re: #258 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Oh, and autism causing "delusional thinking," kids with autism should all be on involuntary medication!

Ah, so this should combine shortly with the anti-vaxers and gov't conspiracy nuts into "The government is using vaccines to convert our children into killers!"
:P
///

Gah. My brain feels dirty just thinking about these combinations.

383 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:28:31am

re: #367 Gus

Sounds good. We should also have a Predator drone at every school, Patriot missile batteries, and an Iron Dome.

No, we have smaller drones than Predator better suited for short term deployment. And I think Stingers are plenty enough for a school. Patriot takes up too much room.

///

384 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:28:40am

re: #379 watching you tiny alien kittens are

I was aware of that in some high schools- is it really the same in primary schools?

385 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:28:44am
386 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:30:17am
387 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:30:40am

So the teachers won't be unionized but the security guards will?

388 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:31:34am

re: #387 Sol Berdinowitz

So the teachers won't be unionized but the security guards will?

I find the idea of having security guards at EVERY grade school across the country because of this to be rather absurd. Maybe I'm weird.

389 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:32:59am

re: #388 Gus

I find the idea of having security guards at EVERY grade school across the country because of this to be rather absurd. Maybe I'm weird.

69,000 elementary schools. JOBS!!1!

390 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:33:10am

I assume the guards will also have pepper spray at their disposal...

391 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:33:15am

re: #386 Gus

When it all over, the motives will remain inexplicable.

No answers.There never are.

392 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:33:22am

re: #382 Feline Fearless Leader

Ah, so this should combine shortly with the anti-vaxers and gov't conspiracy nuts into "The government is using vaccines to convert our children into killers!"
:P
///

Gah. My brain feels dirty just thinking about these combinations.

The problem is that loons like Mike Adams will say just that. Not right away, since they know if they did they'd get pounded on the net, but in a month or two. They'll say that based on "overlooked witness testimony" they have some "concerns about the standard government account of the shooting." From there, it will morph into the government "covering up the harmful effects of vaccines."

[headdesk]

393 researchok  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:33:50am

re: #388 Gus

Yes to both.
/

394 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:35:34am

re: #390 Sol Berdinowitz

I assume the guards will also have pepper spray at their disposal...

Have to be. You never know when some student's parents will get involved with some left-wing protest. When that happens, security has to be ready to pepper spray the student before they try to convert others to Socialism.

///

395 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:35:48am

re: #389 Decatur Deb

69,000 elementary schools. JOBS!!1!

I'm seeing 88,982 grade schools. So at 35,000/salary X2 for benefits/health/retirement or 70,000 X 88,982 = $6,228,740,000/year. Factor in a government waste factor of 2 and you have $12,457,480,000/year. :O

396 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:36:21am

They can also double as drug enforcement agents. Ain't that America.

397 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:37:18am

re: #384 researchok

I was aware of that in some high schools- is it really the same in primary schools?

Yes, and they drive marked cars too, I guess they figure it increases the deterrence value to have one or more marked police cars parked near the schools main entrance.

398 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:37:26am

re: #395 Gus

I'm seeing 88,982 grade schools. So at 35,000/salary X2 for benefits/health/retirement or 70,000 X 88,982 = $6,228,740,000/year. Factor in a government waste factor of 2 and you have $12,457,480,000/year. :O

Make sure not to train them. It's funnier that way.

399 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:37:50am

re: #395 Gus

I'm seeing 88,982 grade schools. So at 35,000/salary X2 for benefits/health/retirement or 70,000 X 88,982 = $6,228,740,000/year. Factor in a government waste factor of 2 and you have $12,457,480,000/year. :O

Don't forget the wrongful arrest/injury/death lawsuits that will inevitably occur when things go horribly wrong...

400 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:39:34am

Here's a program that really does do some good, by working to help troubled military personnel and veterans escape the dangers of self-medicating:

The War Back Home is a unique tool developed (in collaboration with the Uniformed Services University of The Health Sciences) to help military Service Members recognize and prevent the slippery slope that leads to prescription medication misuse (PMM) and the destructive outcomes that may follow. In this VEILS you have the choice to play as either a Marine Caption, struggling with the temptation to misuse prescription drugs: or as an Army Squad Leader in a position to intervene with a fellow Soldier who might be misusing.

401 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:39:53am

re: #398 goddamnedfrank

Make sure not to train them. It's funnier that way.

We can call it the ESA. Elementary Security Administration. Oops. Forgot about that. We'll need a new federal administration to manage this. That would double my initial estimate from 12 billion to 24 billion. Plus, they'll need a new building through the GSA which could be another 500 million. Then they'll need their own website which would be around 30 million. //

402 Decatur Deb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:40:14am

Alabama schools sometimes ask parents to provide toilet paper and cleaning supplies. The country is not going to pay to control 3 million guns, a few million potential mental cases, and a few hundred thousand school perimeters. See you next atrocity.

(Remember, almost all kids got home last night.)

403 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:40:24am

Well, much of what we know or suspected about the shooting yesterday has turned out to be wrong. From who the shooter was, how he gained entry, who were targets and where, and the amount and kinds of weapons involved have all changed in the last 24 hours.

Some things haven't changed though.

The gun lobby will fight tooth and nail to prevent any change to existing gun laws or improved registration/licensing/requalification for licenses or limitation on the kinds of weapons/ammo.

Something has to be done on that front, and there is significant support for those individual aspects. I'm not calling for a total ban on firearms. I do think that registration should be more comprehensive and require periodic testing for reregistration. That would potentially reduce the chances that someone who is mentally ill or becomes mentally ill after the initial registration could be prevented from having the license - and a mechanism provided for safely dealing with those individuals both from a mental health and gun safety perspective.

Gun safety and education should be mandatory parts of the gun licensing/registration process. Periodic updates should be required - think of it as CPE for gun owners.

404 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:40:46am

re: #378 Feline Fearless Leader

Abby.... Abby Normal.

405 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:41:50am

re: #402 Decatur Deb

Alabama schools sometimes ask parents to provide toilet paper and cleaning supplies. The country is not going to pay to control 3 million guns, a few million potential mental cases, and a few hundred thousand school perimeters. See you next atrocity.

(Remember, almost all kids got home last night.)

Damn you! You're no fun. //

406 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:42:03am

VIDEO GAMES!!!!!

While talking to Rudy Giuliani...

407 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:43:51am

re: #360 researchok

I know it's unpopular to say it but the gun/violence culture here is a big, big part of the problem.

And Gus is right- we'll respond by armed school guards.

And try to pay them by cutting the salaries of those unionized thug teachers.
///

408 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:44:01am

re: #401 Gus

We can call it the ESA. Elementary Security Administration. Oops. Forgot about that. We'll need a new federal administration to manage this. That would double my initial estimate from 12 billion to 24 billion. Plus, they'll need a new building through the GSA which could be another 500 million. Then they'll need their own website which would be around 30 million. //

Now that's a proper conservative satire: Not hating the government, but wary of over-expansion and bloat, and fulling knowing that big new mandates are sure to bring the pigs to the trough. Conservatives need to get back to that attitude, then maybe we won't need a liberal to write conservative satire.

409 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:44:26am

re: #395 Gus

I'm seeing 88,982 grade schools. So at 35,000/salary X2 for benefits/health/retirement or 70,000 X 88,982 = $6,228,740,000/year. Factor in a government waste factor of 2 and you have $12,457,480,000/year. :O

Car, equipment, training, substitution officers for sick days and holiday time, etc, etc...

I'm sure we can boost that up to an even $20 billion for a no bid Halliburton contract offer.

410 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:45:03am

re: #409 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Car, equipment, training, substitution officers for sick days and holiday time, etc, etc...

I'm sure we can boost that up to an even $20 billion for a no bid Halliburton contract offer.

Oops. Forgot to factor in laundry at $99/load. //

411 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:45:47am

re: #406 watching you tiny alien kittens are

VIDEO GAMES!!!!!

While talking to Rudy Giuliani...

Kindly go fuck yourself, Rudy. That's coming from a "violent video games" player who hasn't felt the need to go on a murderous rampage in over 2 decades of playing them.

412 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:46:19am

re: #410 Gus

Oops. Forgot to factor in laundry at $99/load. //

88,982 guards X $99/weekly laundry X 52 = $458,079,336/year for laundry.

413 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:46:50am

Damn thing is getting expensive already. //

414 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:48:32am

re: #392 Dark_Falcon

The problem is that loons like Mike Adams will say just that. Not right away, since they know if they did they'd get pounded on the net, but in a month or two. They'll say that based on "overlooked witness testimony" they have some "concerns about the standard government account of the shooting." From there, it will morph into the government "covering up the harmful effects of vaccines."

[headdesk]

Your already late, go read the comments at the Daily Mail article on the shooter, been there done that already.

415 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:48:35am

re: #412 Gus

88,982 guards X $99/weekly laundry X 52 = $458,079,336/year for laundry.

And those uniforms are a Sched A deduction. Less taxes.

416 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:49:22am

re: #411 Targetpractice

Kindly go fuck yourself, Rudy. That's coming from a "violent video games" player who hasn't felt the need to go on a murderous rampage in over 2 decades of playing them.

QFT. If anything, blowing away a few zombies or Heavy/Medic combos is a good stress release, at least for me. And no one gets hurt.

417 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 7:53:14am

re: #416 Mattand

QFT. If anything, blowing away a few zombies or Heavy/Medic combos is a good stress release, at least for me. And no one gets hurt.

Agreed. In fact, after the last couple days, I'm considering just burying myself in Fallout: New Vegas for the rest of the day, in the hopes of taking my mind off everything I've seen. Or maybe some Skyrim, since for whatever reason, I couldn't stop thinking of it as I watched The Hobbit the other night.

418 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:02:01am

re: #411 Targetpractice

Kindly go fuck yourself, Rudy. That's coming from a "violent video games" player who hasn't felt the need to go on a murderous rampage in over 2 decades of playing them.

The way I play Civ 5 is a clear indication I'm a ticking time bomb of genocide and world domination aspirations. If I ever aspire to political office, one of you is going to have to been Christropher Walken to my Martin Sheen, you dig?

419 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:02:16am

re: #417 Targetpractice

Hey, have you ever played Pyschonauts? If not, go to steam and grab it. It is wonderful and the most escapist game I've ever played.

420 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:02:53am

Bring some Kleenex.

421 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:03:46am
422 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:03:48am

re: #418 The Ghost of a Flea

The way I play Civ 5 is a clear indication I'm a ticking time bomb of genocide and world domination aspirations. If I ever aspire to political office, one of you is going to have to been Christropher Walken to my Martin Sheen, you dig?

I think I can get Gus to agree to be a Charlie Sheen, but that's about it.

///

423 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:04:30am

re: #422 Dark_Falcon

I think I can get Gus to agree to be a Charlie Sheen, but that's about it.

///

I've been drinking far too much Tiger Blood™ of late.

//

424 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:05:25am

re: #418 The Ghost of a Flea

The way I play Civ 5 is a clear indication I'm a ticking time bomb of genocide and world domination aspirations. If I ever aspire to political office, one of you is going to have to been Christropher Walken to my Martin Sheen, you dig?

I want their explanation of the players of the "My Little Pony Fortress: Friendship is Magma" mod of Dwarf Fortress.

425 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:06:29am

re: #422 Dark_Falcon

I think I can get Gus to agree to be a Charlie Sheen, but that's about it.

///

Hmm, doesn't the Christopher Walken part require something akin to a very severe waterboarding?

426 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:06:40am

Morning Lizardim. So I finally had a Facebook friend - a rabid right-winger who was recently discharged from the Army - post the "We need more guns, not less" retarded right wing meme this morning. I just couldn't take it and totally went off. This whole ... THING ... is too much of a tragedy for us to be playing stupid gun-nut politics with it. Let's do something useful instead, like easier/cheaper assistance for mental and psychological disorders.

427 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:07:10am

re: #424 Feline Fearless Leader

I want their explanation of the players of the "My Little Pony Fortress: Friendship is Magma" mod of Dwarf Fortress.

Either the players are bronies, or they just have a serious liking for weird shit.

428 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:11:06am

re: #423 Gus

I've been drinking far too much Tiger Blood™ of late.

//

Image: Tiger.jpg

429 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:12:47am

Religious leaders respond to yesterday's violence...

...but gay marriage...

430 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:13:03am

re: #427 Dark_Falcon

Either the players are bronies, or they just have a serious liking for weird shit.

It's probably a combination of both, along with some mental creativity in designing the code (main raw data) modifications to add in things of various complexity.

431 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:17:09am

I think today will be a good day to work on my Basic Fantasy/Epic 6 Wales 1190AD campaign. Pseudo-historical fantasy is good on a day like today.

432 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:18:27am

re: #429 Gus

Religious leaders respond to yesterday's violence...

...but gay marriage...

Gay marriages causes weather disasters; Dissing God causes massacres. The streams don't cross.

It is known.

433 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:18:59am

re: #429 Gus

Religious leaders respond to yesterday's violence...

...but gay marriage...

interesting typo!!!

//

434 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:19:02am

re: #417 Targetpractice

Agreed. In fact, after the last couple days, I'm considering just burying myself in Fallout: New Vegas for the rest of the day, in the hopes of taking my mind off everything I've seen. Or maybe some Skyrim, since for whatever reason, I couldn't stop thinking of it as I watched The Hobbit the other night.

Feel like I should be more upset that I already am. I haven't broken down in tears, but just the sheer magnitude of the whole situation is just crushing.

I went to meet some former co-workers for lunch yesterday. As I was leaving, I saw a quick blip about a school shooting in CT. Literally, no info at the time, but I kinda thought that maybe it was the press going into "it bleeds, it leads" mode. Not a huge deal.

After lunch, I was helping my former boss buy an iPhone. She called her husband to test out the phone. She suddenly gasped and grasped my arm. Hanging up, she was in tears. That's when I found out the extent of the incident.

There's been so many things I've been mulling over in the last 24 hours:

-Those poor kids, going off to school and not knowing they were seeing their families for the last time.

-The indescribable grief their parents are experiencing, that will never truly go away.

- The fuck-knockers who think that arming teachers and adding more guns to our society is the issue.

- The religious fanatics who are using this tragedy to promote their twisted religious views.

- Why are we, as a nation, not admitting that the 2nd Amendment is, as written, an archaic death pact.

I could go on, but you get the picture. I have to sort of temper how I approach all of this, as I don't have kids. It hasn't come up yet, but eventually someone is going to throw the whole "You're not a parent, therefore your anger/opinions are less valid" horseshit in my face at some point.

There are kids in my life, whom I love even though they're not mine. Not the same as being a parent, but the heartache and horror of the situation isn't lost on me.

I guess that's the dichotomy of our species. We are capable of so much greatness and so much misery.

435 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:19:27am

re: #429 Gus

re: #433 sattv4u2

interesting typo!!!

//

(guessing you meant ban!!)

436 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:20:43am

re: #426 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

Morning Lizardim. So I finally had a Facebook friend - a rabid right-winger who was recently discharged from the Army - post the "We need more guns, not less" retarded right wing meme this morning. I just couldn't take it and totally went off. This whole ... THING ... is too much of a tragedy for us to be playing stupid gun-nut politics with it. Let's do something useful instead, like easier/cheaper assistance for mental and psychological disorders.

FFFFUUUUUU.....

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

437 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:22:35am

re: #433 sattv4u2

interesting typo!!!

//

Thwack!

438 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:25:05am

re: #429 Gus

Religious leaders respond to yesterday's violence...

...but gay marriage...

Had to resist a reply comment in extremely bad taste, it's too damn soon yet. :(

439 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:25:15am
440 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:26:40am

re: #438 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Had to resist a reply comment in extremely bad taste, it's too damn soon yet. :(

Perk of my age

no filter!!!
/

441 lawhawk  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:26:47am

re: #439 Gus

Saw a few twitters yesterday commenting about 50 million babies murdered after Roe. So yes, they were going there even as the horrors at the school were unfolding.

442 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:29:00am

re: #441 lawhawk

Saw a few twitters yesterday commenting about 50 million babies murdered after Roe. So yes, they were going there even as the horrors at the school were unfolding.

Yeah. "Too soon to talk about gun control" but let's talk about God not being in the classroom and compare this to abortion.

443 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:29:41am
444 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:30:52am

I've always thought the concept of gun-free zones incomplete without ways to enforce it (screening machines, pat downs upon entrance-whatever. The little bit of research I did yesterday shows it wouldn't matter in school shootings. The criminals are specifically going to those locations, not because they are gun-free zones, but because they have a vendetta specifically towards the school or persons in the school.

It has nothing to do with some vague idea of want to "kill lots of people", they seem to want to kill specific people in a specific place. It has nothing to do with the fact that there will be little resistance because they will be in a gun-free zone.

445 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:31:06am

re: #436 Renaissance_Man

FFFFUUUUUU.....

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I think we can both agree that we need to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable and psychologically unfit. I just don't want to go too far in the direction of removing guns from people who are qualified to operate them.

446 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:31:25am

Saw this on another forum and I think it's worth quoting:

Let me share one piece of wisdom, passed on to me by Sarah Eden, whose nine-year-old said these words to her today: "When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

447 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:31:33am

re: #439 Gus

[Embedded content]

Everybody has to get their .02 in.

448 darthstar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:31:36am

Mornin' everyone. I'm finding the internets to be a very depressing place today.

449 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:32:10am

Woke up this morning with something I just have to do. In a few days I have my monthly board meeting at a very successful public shooting range. There will be a detailed proposal in my hands, asking our big range to make significant donation to the victims fund. I trust there will be something like that set up soon. I can only hope the gesture will be welcome. I may need to propose it an as anonymous donation.

Would it anger or upset people for a shooting range business to try to help? So much heartache rightly swirls all around this tragedy.

450 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:32:57am

re: #423 Gus

I've been drinking far too much Tiger Blood™ of late.

//

Going all the way to Singapore for that?

451 Sionainn  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:34:32am

re: #449 Political Atheist

Woke up this morning with something I just have to do. In a few days I have my monthly board meeting at a very successful public shooting range. There will be a detailed proposal in my hands, asking our big range to make significant donation to the victims fund. I trust there will be something like that set up soon. I can only hope the gesture will be welcome. I may need to propose it an as anonymous donation.

Would it anger or upset people for a shooting range business to try to help? So much heartache rightly swirls all around this tragedy.

Anonymous donation...

It's a nice thing to do.

452 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:35:13am

re: #449 Political Atheist

Would it anger or upset people for a shooting range business to try to help

Not at all
We always hear about the "responsible gun owners" and I (among them) and friends I have spoken with are as saddened about this as anyone else

453 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:36:51am

Somehow, I think the War On Christmas General Bill O'Reilley would still find a way to be indignant about this:

454 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:37:29am

re: #453 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Somehow, I think the War On Christmas General Bill O'Reilley would still find a way to be indignant about this:

[Embedded content]

Becomes it comes but one day a year?

455 darthstar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:38:14am

re: #452 sattv4u2

Nobody's ever accused you of being responsible.
//

456 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:38:29am

re: #449 Political Atheist

Woke up this morning with something I just have to do. In a few days I have my monthly board meeting at a very successful public shooting range. There will be a detailed proposal in my hands, asking our big range to make significant donation to the victims fund. I trust there will be something like that set up soon. I can only hope the gesture will be welcome. I may need to propose it an as anonymous donation.

Would it anger or upset people for a shooting range business to try to help? So much heartache rightly swirls all around this tragedy.

hmmm, I think it would be a bad idea. What would work is a real effort to take part in Real Change. I think it would be viewed as "just throwing money at it". Those involved would probably rather see some REAL action on the side of the grass roots 'gun nuts" to reel in the whackos and manufacturers.

That would mean more than one meeting of your organization and lots of arguing and soul searching.

Perhaps a pledge signed by the members would work accompanied by the cash donation?

457 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:38:56am

re: #453 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Somehow, I think the War On Christmas General Bill O'Reilley would still find a way to be indignant about this:

[Embedded content]

Christmas!

[Faints]

458 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:39:11am
459 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:39:23am

Guns back in schools?

460 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:39:42am

re: #458 Gus

[Embedded content]

I don't want his God back in schools. I don't want his God anywhere at all. It certainly isn't my God.

461 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:39:50am

re: #449 Political Atheist

Would it anger or upset people for a shooting range business to try to help? So much heartache rightly swirls all around this tragedy.

I believe that some people would see it in a negative light, as a cynical attempt to "whitewash" the responsibility of the gun culture rather than as a heartfelt gesture to victims.

If it is meant as a purely helpful gesture then it doesn't need a name attached to it anyway.

462 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:40:21am

re: #458 Gus

[Embedded content]

Bryan Fischer: The Mount Vesuvius of derp.

463 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:41:10am

re: #455 darthstar

Nobody's ever accused you of being responsible.
//

or reasonable!

464 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:41:15am

re: #458 Gus

We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation. We are a Christian nation.

...and guts. Don't forget guts, one of the three things that made America great!!!

465 darthstar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:41:19am

re: #454 Targetpractice

Becomes it comes but one day a year?

Chanukah - 8 days
Christmas - 12 days (there's even a song about it, so there!)
Ramadan - 30 days

466 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:41:27am

re: #462 BongCrodny

Bryan Fischer: The Mount Vesuvius of derp.

467 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:42:00am

re: #459 Gus

Guns back in schools?

The three "R"'s

Reading, (W)Riting and Rifle Range

468 Sionainn  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:42:26am

re: #459 Gus

Guns back in schools?

I wish that stupid fucker would shut up.

469 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:42:29am

Why do citizens need semi-automatic firearms (firearms or pistols? Would a common-sense approach be to say "if you want such firearms, join the the National Guard"?

And then to Expand the National Guard to include older people and make true local militias?

470 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:42:32am

re: #453 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Somehow, I think the War On Christmas General Bill O'Reilley would still find a way to be indignant about this:

[Embedded content]

471 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:42:57am

re: #458 Gus

[Embedded content]

Yeah, screw that whole "separation of church & state" business, let's get back to prayer, putting up as much religious memorabilia as possible, and get to teachin' the kids about how a fictional deity created everything in a span of six days and that the world's genetic pool started with two humans.

That'll surely keep those gunmen away.

///

472 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:43:43am

re: #467 sattv4u2

The three "R"'s

Reading, (W)Riting and Rifle Range

That's four R's.

473 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:44:02am

re: #471 Targetpractice

Yeah, screw that whole "separation of church & state" business, let's get back to prayer, putting up as much religious memorabilia as possible, and get to teachin' the kids about how a fictional deity created everything in a span of six days and that the world's genetic pool started with two humans.

That'll surely keep those gunmen away.

///

Yeah. I'm trying to remember when "guns were in school."

474 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:44:14am

re: #453 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

Somehow, I think the War On Christmas General Bill O'Reilley would still find a way to be indignant about this:

[Embedded content]

Of course, he mentioned the filthy pagan ritual of Ramadan in the same tweet with the holy celebration of Christmas!

Bonus drunken Pam...

Creeping Sharia!!1!!!

475 darthstar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:44:23am

re: #468 Sionainn

I wish that stupid fucker would shut up.

I wish that stupid fucker would get festering boils on his ass and a case of dysentery.

476 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:44:51am

re: #469 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Why do citizens need semi-automatic firearms (firearms or pistols? Would a common-sense approach be to say "if you want such firearms, join the the National Guard"?

And then to Expand the National Guard to include older people and make true local militias?

I'm open to the Israeli idea of requiring a minimum 2 years military service just to be considered for a gun permit, but I'm sure that the gun cultists would blow a collective gasket over the idea that they'd have to serve a government they despise before they'd be allowed to own a gun.

477 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:45:54am

Good Morning Lizards..
I read on the crawl on CNN this morning that 1 in 3 Americans think these are the end-times. Pisses me off. If 54 million people killed, the world on fire and 6 million Jews gassed 60 years ago during WW2 wasn't a sign of the end-times then what is? Whiny dis-spirited Americans whose only world view is naval gazing.

478 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:46:02am

re: #472 BongCrodny

That's four R's.

playing on the old "reading (w)riting and (a)rithmitic,

479 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:46:03am

re: #475 darthstar

I wish that stupid fucker would get festering boils on his ass and a case of dysentery.

I would not go that far. I just feel better in the belief that someday, somewhere he will be called to answer for the hideous shit he has spread...

480 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:46:05am

re: #472 BongCrodny

That's four R's.

Sounds like he wants Ritual and Rifle Range.

481 darthstar  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:46:09am

Okay...time to walk the dogs before going skiing with the missus. Taking a day off patrol to be a good hubby.

482 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:47:14am

re: #477 A Man for all Seasons

Good Morning Lizards..
I read on the crawl on CNN this morning that 1 in 3 Americans think these are the end-times. Pisses me off. If 54 million people killed, the world on fire and 6 million Jews gassed 60 years ago during WW2 wasn't a sign of the end-times then what is? Whiny dis-spirited Americans whose only world view is naval gazing.

Because back in WWII this sort of back-woods fundamentalist Christianity was limited to the backwoods folks. They have since come down out of the hills and taken over the dialogue...

483 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:48:00am

Hmm. I need to get out. Too much procrastination, and I have (shudder) Christmas gift shopping to finish up.

Off to fight the barbarian hordes in King of Prussia...

484 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:48:41am

re: #483 Feline Fearless Leader

Hmm. I need to get out. Too much procrastination, and I have (shudder) Christmas HOLIDAY gift shopping to finish up.

Off to fight the barbarian hordes in King of Prussia...

ftfy
////

485 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:50:09am

re: #459 Gus

Guns back in schools?

In Case Of Emergency Break Glass style boxes in the hallways with pre-loaded MP-10s preset to three round burst mode in them!

486 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:50:16am

re: #484 sattv4u2

ftfy
////

Thanks for the fix. We actually simply celebrate the solstice.

487 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:50:24am
488 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:51:07am

re: #485 watching you tiny alien kittens are

In Case Of Emergency Break Glass style boxes in the hallways with pre-loaded MP-10s preset to three round burst mode in them!

Ha! You must have been reading my mind. I was thinking about an "in case of emergency weapon" as an alternate.

489 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:51:07am

re: #483 Feline Fearless Leader

Be careful. Holiday shoppers can be an irate bunch.

490 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:52:56am

re: #487 Gus

[Embedded content]

Illustrated:

Image: tacocat.jpg

491 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:53:02am

re: #487 Gus

taco cat spelt backwards is taco cat. Carry on.

Y'know, I always wondered what they put in those things.

492 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:54:01am

re: #485 watching you tiny alien kittens are

In Case Of Emergency Break Glass style boxes in the hallways with pre-loaded MP-10s preset to three round burst mode in them!

Why not just go straight to a big contract with OCP to install ED-209s in all schools?
//

493 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:54:53am

re: #491 BongCrodny

Y'know, I always wondered what they put in those things.

That moment when you find yourself wondering, "damn, this is the biggest chicken leg I've ever seen."

494 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:55:29am

re: #473 Gus

Yeah. I'm trying to remember when "guns were in school."

Damned if I know. Talked to my old man and he can't ever remember guns being acceptable on school grounds except out in the rural areas, and that was rifles kept by kids who went hunting after school ended.

495 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:55:30am

re: #492 Feline Fearless Leader

Why not just go straight to a big contract with OCP to install ED-209s in all schools?
//

Image: ed209.jpg

496 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:56:07am

re: #491 BongCrodny

You do not want to know. It gives a new definition to "mystery" meat.

497 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:56:41am

re: #495 Gus

Image: ed209.jpg

They can paint it pink and put "Hello Kitty" and flower decals on it to make it less threatening.

498 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:57:05am

re: #492 Feline Fearless Leader

Why not just go straight to a big contract with OCP to install ED-209s in all schools?
//

"Freeze. You are in violation of District Code 1447, possession of a banned sugary food. Put down the food and step away. You have 10 seconds to comply."

499 SmithCommaJohn  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:57:24am

Apparently they won't be happy until everybody is armed to the teeth and the entire country turns into one giant Battle Royale-style deathmatch.

500 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:57:25am

re: #456 Holidays are Family Fun Time

re: #456 Holidays are Family Fun Time

hmmm, I think it would be a bad idea. What would work is a real effort to take part in Real Change. I think it would be viewed as "just throwing money at it". Those involved would probably rather see some REAL action on the side of the grass roots 'gun nuts" to reel in the whackos and manufacturers.

That would mean more than one meeting of your organization and lots of arguing and soul searching.

Perhaps a pledge signed by the members would work accompanied by the cash donation?

Not sure what you mean by Real Change. Nor how much clout a single range can have. Quite a dilemma. Ranges like our are where safety and responsible use lives, grows, gets taught to any and all who attend. Whatever change is decided, shooting ranges and ancillary classes will have the job of educating people who have guns and shoot in it.

I'm going to propose this as an anonymous donation only. I'm calling the manager to make sure the flag is at half mast. What else can we do?

501 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 8:58:04am

re: #494 Targetpractice

Damned if I know. Talked to my old man and he can't ever remember guns being acceptable on school grounds except out in the rural areas, and that was rifles kept by kids who went hunting after school ended.

High school I went to had a rifle range in the basement level. (And a rifle team at one point.) But it's not like you ever saw the rifles out and about in the hallways.

502 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:00:32am

re: #501 Feline Fearless Leader

High school I went to had a rifle range in the basement level. (And a rifle team at one point.) But it's not like you ever saw the rifles out and about in the hallways.

Exactly. Guns were confined to specific areas, with ammunition kept locked away except when faculty was present. Kids weren't walking the halls armed and neither was the faculty.

503 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:00:55am

For a start, responsible gun owners should ditch the NRA. Cancel your memberships and cut off financial donations.
The NRA is the epitome of irresponsible gun policies.

504 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:01:27am

re: #500 Political Atheist

Really, it'd be far better if you did things as fathers and fellow concerned citizens, as individuals than as gun owners. It's the binding of up of gun ownership and identity that's freaking people out at the moment, somewhat.

Make the donation in all of your names if you want, rather than anonymously, but not "From X shooting range". That's just weird.

505 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:07:07am

re: #502 Targetpractice

Exactly. Guns were confined to specific areas, with ammunition kept locked away except when faculty was present. Kids weren't walking the halls armed and neither was the faculty.

Exactly.

If you're going to be responsible about firearms in school, by the time you get to the storage area, open the locks, load the guns, you're still looking at a slaughter.

If you're talking about arming teachers in individual classrooms, then I still think it's the psycho with his gun already drawn who's going to have the advantage over the teacher with the sidearm at his/her waist.

It's in no way a solution; it's only being offered in order to piss people off.

506 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:07:17am

re: #503 Varek Raith
Can we look a little closer at that?
It's really the ILA part we want to ditch from NRA/ILA. I switched to another advocacy firm long ago. But they are not all bad.
Critics of the NRA have no idea how much they do for gun safety. Education, classes, competition... I would say that stuff has to expand not be done away with. The core lesson for children that run across guns like at a friends house is "Stop. Don't Touch. Get An Adult." is their program. Nobody else has the certified instructors in carefully crafted curricula.

507 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:09:47am

re: #504 Obdicut

Really, it'd be far better if you did things as fathers and fellow concerned citizens than as gun owners. It's the binding of up of gun ownership and identity that's freaking people out at the moment, somewhat.

Agreed. Anonymous is the best way. Anything else will be misunderstood. Gun owners and sportsmen and women are just as shocked and hurt as gun critics. Just as shocked.

508 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:10:16am

re: #506 Political Atheist

Can we look a little closer at that?
It's really the ILA part we want to ditch from NRA/ILA. I switched to another advocacy firm long ago. But they are not all bad.
Critics of the NRA have no idea how much they do for gun safety. Education, classes, competition... I would say that stuff has to expand not be done away with. The core lesson for children that run across guns like at a friends house is "Stop. Don't Touch. Get An Adult." is their program. Nobody else has the certified instructors in carefully crafted curricula.

With the NRA's crazy leadership, I frankly don't care. They are a problem.
Until members actively fight to get rid of NRA leadership, I will continue to see the NRA as a paranoid group.

509 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:10:21am

A good year end round up from Poynter: The best (and worst) media errors and corrections of 2012

510 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:11:22am

re: #506 Political Atheist

Can we look a little closer at that?
It's really the ILA part we want to ditch from NRA/ILA. I switched to another advocacy firm long ago. But they are not all bad.
Critics of the NRA have no idea how much they do for gun safety. Education, classes, competition... I would say that stuff has to expand not be done away with. The core lesson for children that run across guns like at a friends house is "Stop. Don't Touch. Get An Adult." is their program. Nobody else has the certified instructors in carefully crafted curricula.

You're not going to illicit any sympathy for the NRA by way of their gun safety programs. They are a John Birch like organization and their lunacy begins at the top with their leader, Wayne LaPierre to their board members like Ted Nugent.

511 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:13:06am

re: #476 Targetpractice

I'm open to the Israeli idea of requiring a minimum 2 years military service just to be considered for a gun permit, but I'm sure that the gun cultists would blow a collective gasket over the idea that they'd have to serve a government they despise before they'd be allowed to own a gun.

Short of that, CMP or JROTC requirements, I don't see how we can expect everyone to be educated to use firearms. When the draft was in place, most young men learned, now they don't, but they still have access. It's a dangerous combination --young men, guns and ignorance.

There are courses available thru the NRA everywhere, but the non-white male demographic is unlikely to seek them out. I've felt the one's I've taken were excellent, so I know there are good civilian instructors out there.

Most of the gun nuts I know are very pro-military, it's the suburban soccer moms I know that aren't.

512 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:13:07am

re: #510 Gus

You're not going to illicit any sympathy for the NRA by way of their gun safety programs. They are a John Birch like organization and their lunacy begins at the top with their leader, Wayne LaPierre to their board members like Ted Nugent.

They talk safety out of one side of their mouth while Ted gets up on stage with his assault gun and shouts "Suck on this, Obama!"

What sort of message does that put across to you?

513 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:15:18am

re: #505 BongCrodny

The whole idea is ludicrous. Professional security as appropriate is the only option. Guns are pretty common in stand alone jewelry stores. But in the shopping malls, not allowed or necessary, as the malls have pro guards and the police know the place well. Schools look like that sort of thing is the only rational option.

When it was decided to allow airline pilots to train and carry handguns, the FAA did that with the understanding the cockpit is locked up for the whole flight.
"More guns" only makes sense in more guards properly trained and sent. More security people where it makes sense. That's it.

514 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:16:30am

re: #506 Political Atheist

Can we look a little closer at that?
It's really the ILA part we want to ditch from NRA/ILA. I switched to another advocacy firm long ago. But they are not all bad.
Critics of the NRA have no idea how much they do for gun safety. Education, classes, competition... I would say that stuff has to expand not be done away with. The core lesson for children that run across guns like at a friends house is "Stop. Don't Touch. Get An Adult." is their program. Nobody else has the certified instructors in carefully crafted curricula.

Don't forget the waterfowl habitat preservation efforts, from the pothole region to gulf marshlands, not only through outright purchase but through conservation easements that give the owners large property tax reductions.

Yes the NRA does some good things, but the management has mostly gone to shit over the last two decades.

515 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:17:33am

re: #510 Gus

I don't want to make sympathy for the NRA/ILA. All I want to do is keep the safety and hunter safety classes going. Not a thing more.

516 Dr. Matt  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:18:27am

Instaputz needs to stop playing Call of Duty.

517 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:19:13am

re: #512 Sol Berdinowitz

They talk safety out of one side of their mouth shile Ted stands on stage with his assault gun and shouts "Suck on this, Obama!"

What sort of message does that put across to you?

Gun safety training requirements are teh unconstitooshinul!

518 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:20:55am

Here's a bozo over at PJ Media.

Mandatory Training for Gun Owners: Constitutional? Useful?
A solution in need of a problem: mandatory training is of questionable legality, and gun misuse is not generally due to a lack of skill or knowledge.

519 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:22:58am

re: #514 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Disclaimer: I used to be a member because everyone in the Alaska business community are members, it was for "networking." Dinners, BBQs, Auctions for charity, all that fun stuff happened thru the NRA up there. This was before the management turned into wingnuts, but they were already starting to head in that direction.

What pissed me off was between the magazine, gifts, and the tons of bulky mail they sent me begging for more donations constantly I figure they were spending more than my dues just to try to get more money out of me.

520 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:24:55am
521 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:25:44am

re: #520 Gus

[Embedded content]

Just another frail Southern Belle...

/

522 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:25:44am
523 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:25:50am

re: #520 Gus

[Embedded content]

God, hope she's alright. Heard she had to cancel some meetings the other day due to stomach issues.

524 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:26:01am

re: #500 Political Atheist

re: #456 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Not sure what you mean by Real Change. Nor how much clout a single range can have. Quite a dilemma. Ranges like our are where safety and responsible use lives, grows, gets taught to any and all who attend. Whatever change is decided, shooting ranges and ancillary classes will have the job of educating people who have guns and shoot in it.

I'm going to propose this as an anonymous donation only. I'm calling the manager to make sure the flag is at half mast. What else can we do?

Well, I don't think the NRA is going to change or accept common sense regulation or whatever, unless it's members and member ranges start bitching at them or withholding donations. I think the gun community as individuals has to come together and decide what they will accept and not just follow the NRA. I think we will have to make a public differentiation between the organization and it's normal, non-high profile everyday members.

For example. I posted this on my fb today:

I am an NRA member, I do not believe Obama is going to take away everyone's guns. I also believe we can work together to enforce the laws already on the books, remove the stigma of mental illness, increase accessability to mental health treatment, and do what is necessary to keep this from happening again.

It's time to stop competing for rights and to start co-operating for what truly keeps us safe.

I think the Assault Weapons Ban is going to go thru again. And, althought I'll have to read the legislation, I hope it isn't as vague as it was last time. I'll probably be supporting it this time. Really, why do citizens need such a firearm? I'd support government sanctioned training requirement for ownership. Even Honorable Discharge from the military would work for me.

I think the gun nuts have to have a real dialogue about this sans NRA.

525 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:26:03am

re: #520 Gus

omg. I hope she is okay.

526 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:26:04am

re: #520 Gus

[Embedded content]

Ouch.

527 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:28:03am

re: #525 PhillyPretzel

omg. I hope she is okay.

Sounds like it. She's been pushing it in her last days as SoS. Talk about a whirlwind tour.

528 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:29:08am

re: #506 Political Atheist

Can we look a little closer at that?
It's really the ILA part we want to ditch from NRA/ILA. I switched to another advocacy firm long ago. But they are not all bad.
Critics of the NRA have no idea how much they do for gun safety. Education, classes, competition... I would say that stuff has to expand not be done away with. The core lesson for children that run across guns like at a friends house is "Stop. Don't Touch. Get An Adult." is their program. Nobody else has the certified instructors in carefully crafted curricula.

It's just a shame that they also inculcate a worldview in which one should safely use one's firearms against an array of hostile "others" that are acceptable targets. And undermine their safety advocacy by heaping contempt on anyone wary of guns being omnipresent while granting unconditional rights to firearms to dangerous people. I mean, the slippery slope argument is a fallacy from the get go, but it gets more ridiculous when you see conspiracy and overreach in the suggestion that maybe men with track records of domestic violence shouldn't be able to keep their guns while they're threatening their abused spouses/exs.

I would like to like the NRA, but they're getting nuttier and more open with this "we're geared up to fight the government, any day now" stuff. More and more they're dominated by the mythology of the noblility of vigilante-ism as opposed to the grim necessity of self-defense, which amounts to ensuring that they, the armed, are safe at the expense of everyone that might be perceived as a threat.

529 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:30:27am

re: #528 The Ghost of a Flea

The NRA has slowly but surely convinced me I need to be wary of and untrusting of gun owners in general.

530 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:31:46am

re: #515 Political Atheist

I don't want to make sympathy for the NRA/ILA. All I want to do is keep the safety and hunter safety classes going. Not a thing more.

I picked the word "sympathy" out of a hat so to speak.

531 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:31:52am

re: #528 The Ghost of a Flea

It's just a shame that they also inculcate a worldview in which one should safely use one's firearms against an array of hostile "others" that are acceptable targets. And undermine their safety advocacy by heaping contempt on anyone wary of guns being omnipresent while granting unconditional rights to firearms to dangerous people. I mean, the slippery slope argument is a fallacy from the get go, but it gets more ridiculous when you see conspiracy and overreach in the suggestion that maybe men with track records of domestic violence shouldn't be able to keep their guns while they're threatening their abused spouses/exs.

I would like to like the NRA, but they're getting nuttier and more open with this "we're geared up to fight the government, any day now" stuff. More and more they're dominated by the mythology of the noblility of vigilante-ism as opposed to the grim necessity of self-defense, which amounts to ensuring that they, the armed, are safe at the expense of everyone that might be perceived as a threat.

Gone are the days of my Father, when the NRA was the "gentlemen's hunting organization". That demographic is gone, and the NRA hasn't changed with our culture.

I think that has been the biggest awakening for me. How men like my Father really were representatives of that old "English-type" landed gentry. Hell my Dad had WOOL trousers and suspenders! That world is gone.

532 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:36:23am
533 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:37:19am
534 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:37:48am
535 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:38:19am
536 bratwurst  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:38:45am

re: #533 Gus

re: #534 Gus

THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT THIS!

537 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:39:10am

re: #534 Gus

[Embedded content]

Geez, the last place I'd expect such a thing. I still think of Las Vegas Casinos as being Mob-ruled security tight. But, I guess that is only around the money.

538 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:40:22am

One moron tries to blow up his explosive shoes and we all gotta take off our shoes at airports.
Multiple morons massacre hundreds of people and 'oh well, what can you do about it?'

WTF.

539 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:40:36am

re: #536 bratwurst

re: #534 Gus

45 murders a day.

540 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:42:17am

So the latest is that shooter didn't get buzzed in, he blasted his way in. So much for turning schools into fortresses.

541 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:42:19am

re: #538 Varek Raith

One moron tries to blow up his explosive shoes and we all gotta take off our shoes at airports.
Multiple morons massacre hundreds of people and 'oh well, what can you do about it?'

WTF.

Well, airports are a closed location, much easier to monitor and control that the whole country.

542 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:43:37am

re: #540 Targetpractice

So the latest is that shooter didn't get buzzed in, he blasted his way in. So much for turning schools into fortresses.

I think the security is more for child predators and divorced non-custodial parents wanting to abduct their child. Well, and a feel good measure.

543 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:43:44am

re: #540 Targetpractice

So the latest is that shooter didn't get buzzed in, he blasted his way in. So much for turning schools into fortresses.

Well. Then we need moats! //

544 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:44:11am

re: #530 Gus

I picked the word "sympathy" out of a hat so to speak.

I understand. The worst of the NRA has made it's best gun responsibility and safety efforts unwelcome, even among those who call for increased safety education, rules and requirements.

I know people who feel the same way about the ACLU for backing free speech by people & groups quite hateful.

545 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:44:11am

re: #539 Gus

45 murders a day.

Yes. I know this isn't all gun crimes. Just saying. It's the overall climate of violence.

546 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:44:13am

re: #541 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Well, airports are a closed location, much easier to monitor and control that the whole country.

There's also no Constitutional right to explosive shoes. It's problematic that so many people bring too much baggage and pet issues into the debate.

547 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:44:24am

re: #537 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Geez, the last place I'd expect such a thing. I still think of Las Vegas Casinos as being Mob-ruled security tight.

From what I heard, it happened outside

Murder/ Suicide

Hard for "security" to stop something like that

548 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:45:20am

Grrrrr....Fox has Tony Perkins on comparing the horrible trauma suffered by his organization at the hands of a deranged shooter to the school shooting.

"One of my minimum wage security guards was shot in the arm down in our lobby so I know just the kind the nightmare trauma and fear those kids were going through yesterday. As his employer I had to suffer with not knowing the extent of his injuries for perhaps five whole minutes. So I know exactly what those parents were going through as they waited at the fire station to find out if their children were alive or not."
Note: Not Verbatim, obviously.

*SPIT*

549 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:45:42am

re: #542 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I think the security is more for child predators and divorced non-custodial parents wanting to abduct their child. Well, and a feel good measure.

I lost track of how many schools put up various security measures, from metal detectors and reinforced doors to drawing up emergency plans for evacuating the school in the aftermath of Columbine. Now after this, we're being told the measures aren't enough and we need to further reinforce these places and put armed faculty in the hallways.

We're turning schools into prisons, such that when they fail to keep the intruder out, they succeed in keeping more victims inside.

550 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:45:44am

So we are back to massacres being the status quo in America.
Good to know.

551 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:46:35am

My husband and son took the CMP training required for ownership of the M-1. Don't ask me the specifics. They both came home real excited about what they learned and the gun itself, but said they didn't need to own one. They declined when the paperwork got passed around.

552 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:46:36am

re: #544 Political Atheist

There is no comparison between the NRA's promotion of paranoia and the ACLU's defense of unpopular speech. None. It is a terrible, terrible comparison to draw, especially in the current circumstances.

553 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:47:07am

re: #543 Gus

Well. Then we need moats! //

with dragons!

554 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:47:24am

re: #544 Political Atheist

I understand. The worst of the NRA has made it's best gun responsibility and safety efforts unwelcome, even among those who call for increased safety education, rules and requirements.

I know people who feel the same way about the ACLU for backing free speech by people & groups quite hateful.

The NRA thinks the UN is coming to take our guns away.
They are paranoid.

555 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:48:29am

The NRA thinks Obama is going to take our guns away.
Paranoid.
The NRA thinks more guns = less crime.
Delusional.

Why the hell should I take such a group seriously?

556 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:49:50am

re: #555 Varek Raith

The NRA thinks Obama is going to take our guns away.
Paranoid.
The NRA thinks more guns = less crime.
Delusional.

Why the hell should I take such a group seriously?

Because they have a paranoid membership who's donating a fuckload of money for them to fight any reasonable gun control laws in the name of "FREEEDDDOOMMM!!"

557 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:49:52am

re: #546 Killgore Trout

There's also no Constitutional right to explosive shoes. It's problematic that so many people bring too much baggage and pet issues into the debate.

Are you and RWC of the opinion that any and all gun control is unconstitutional?
The NRA does.

558 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:49:55am

You realize of course that the backlash from this isn't going to result in anything intelligent and effective. We're just going to have a new rash of 6 year olds getting tackled by the swat team for making a finger gun and yelling "bang", and introvert teenagers getting treated like potential war criminals over their comics and video games. Laws will be passed restricting cosmetic features of certain types of guns (maybe), and people will continue to believe that an absence of clinical mental illness (e.g. schizophrenia) will mean that external rather than internal causes must be assumed. We (over)react to danger with hysteria, which is why we have a gun culture in the first place.

559 efuseakay  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:49:55am

re: #445 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

I think we can both agree that we need to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable and psychologically unfit. I just don't want to go too far in the direction of removing guns from people who are qualified to operate them.

The problem is, just because someone is qualified, doesn't necessarily mean they should own a gun.

560 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:50:21am

Insp Michael Brown
@MentalHealthCop

Interested in the natural venn diagram of policing, mental health and criminal justice. Winner of the 2012 Mark Hanson Digital Media Award from @MindCharity

Birmingham, UK · [Link: www.mentalhealthcop.wordpress.com...]

561 Skip Intro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:50:31am

re: #554 Varek Raith

The NRA thinks the UN is coming to take our guns away.
They are paranoid.

I think the NRA wants the morons to think that. It seems to be working.

The only thing the NRA really cares about is making sure the gun manufacturers who are its main reason for being increase sales year after year. The rest is just bullshit for the delta minuses.

562 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:50:34am

re: #549 Targetpractice

I lost track of how many schools put up various security measures, from metal detectors and reinforced doors to drawing up emergency plans for evacuating the school in the aftermath of Columbine. Now after this, we're being told the measures aren't enough and we need to further reinforce these places and put armed faculty in the hallways.

We're turning schools into prisons, such that when they fail to keep the intruder out, they succeed in keeping more victims inside.

Well, we've witnessed how much such measures have worked on the War on Drugs. "People will only be policed as much as they want to be policed"?

Yet, it's a way for someone to make money and it's easier than actually having a program in place for people to look at themselves. This is why so many seem to want religion in schools. That is supposed to be what religion does-no? But that is also, in reality, just another way for people to make money.

563 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:51:30am

re: #555 Varek Raith

The NRA thinks Obama is going to take our guns away.
Paranoid.
The NRA thinks more guns = less crime.
Delusional.

Why the hell should I take such a group seriously?

They're following the pattern of a significant minority of the country in disregarding evidence in favor of faith.

564 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:51:32am

re: #552 Obdicut

There is no comparison between the NRA's promotion of paranoia and the ACLU's defense of unpopular speech. None. It is a terrible, terrible comparison to draw, especially in the current circumstances.

Yet people do draw it. "I can't do what I want? Look at that organizaton that I disagree with, they get to do it." = false logic.

565 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:52:40am

re: #540 Targetpractice

So the latest is that shooter didn't get buzzed in, he blasted his way in. So much for turning schools into fortresses.

They put up a camera with a monitor in the office. They added an electric lock to the door. They did not replace the glass with laminated impact resistant glass. Made the whole installation pointless, not to mention that they are going to get sued over it, guaranteed. :(

566 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:52:44am

re: #546 Killgore Trout

There's also no Constitutional right to explosive shoes. It's problematic that so many people bring too much baggage and pet issues into the debate.

Uh, the point wasn't about a "Constitutional right to explosive shoes." The point was society's reactions to incidents.

567 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:53:12am

re: #566 Gus

Uh, the point wasn't about a "Constitutional right to explosive shoes." The point was society's reactions to incidents.

Silence!
I keel you!
/

568 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:53:42am

I guess it'll take an Al Qaeda attack like this to wake America up.

569 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:53:43am

re: #557 Varek Raith

Are you and RWC of the opinion that any and all gun control is unconstitutional?
The NRA does.

No, that would be stupid.

570 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:53:45am

re: #558 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

You realize of course that the backlash from this isn't going to result in anything intelligent and effective. We're just going to have a new rash of 6 year olds getting tackled by the swat team for making a finger gun and yelling "bang", and introvert teenagers getting treated like potential war criminals over their comics and video games. Laws will be passed restricting cosmetic features of certain types of guns (maybe), and people will continue to believe that an absence of clinical mental illness (e.g. schizophrenia) will mean that external rather than internal causes must be assumed. We (over)react to danger with hysteria, which is why we have a gun culture in the first place.

Yes, I am also concerned about which you speak. Somehow, I think this is different. The age of the victims hit home with a lot of people in a way these shooting never have before.

This is the critical time, when it is fresh in everyone's mind and the holiday season, for INDIVIDUALs to take action. No matter how small--even voicing your opinion about the NRA or common sense guns laws or mental health treatment.

571 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:54:17am

re: #567 Varek Raith

Silence!
I keel you!
/

I eagerly await to learn what's on the recommended list at Daily Kos.

//

572 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:54:43am

re: #565 watching you tiny alien kittens are

They put up a camera with a monitor in the office. They added an electric lock to the door. They did not replace the glass with laminated impact resistant glass. Made the whole installation pointless, not to mention that they are going to get sued over it, guaranteed. :(

Thing is, there's always going to be a point of failure. If it's not mechanical, it'll be human. See also the initial report that he was buzzed in by the faculty because his mother worked there.

573 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:55:06am

re: #569 Killgore Trout

No, that would be stupid.

Then you missed the point of my shoe bomber post.
We placed lots of checks to make sure it won't happen.
With guns?
We ignore it.

574 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:55:14am

re: #568 Varek Raith

I guess it'll take an Al Qaeda attack like this to wake America up.

It it were Al Q, they would be calling for even more guns. And revenge.

575 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:55:17am

re: #571 Gus

[Link: www.nrastore.com...]

576 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:55:50am

re: #529 Obdicut

The NRA has slowly but surely convinced me I need to be wary of and untrusting of gun owners in general.

I own guns, but I don't understand the mentality of a lot of gun owners I interact with. The prospect of being in a self defense scenario does not excite me; I find the trend of "I'll be ready when the shit goes down" boasting to be not just unimpressive, but creepy.

re: #554 Varek Raith

The NRA thinks the UN is coming to take our guns away.
They are paranoid.

Also, black people. I know, harsh, but the NRA have totally got into the "fear the urban youth" thing. When they call me to solicit money its one of the things that gets trotted out, along with home invasions and carjackings.

577 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:56:02am

re: #575 jaunte

[Link: www.nrastore.com...]

Hmmm. There's something we can agree on. //

578 bratwurst  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:56:37am

re: #575 jaunte

[Link: www.nrastore.com...]

If you take away my flask, only CRIMINALS will have flasks!

579 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:56:54am

re: #573 Varek Raith

Then you missed the point of my shoe bomber post.
We place lots of checks to make sure it won't happen.
With guns?
We ignore it.

Bath salts. Don't forget how they all fell over backwards to create laws and ban "bath salts" after that face eating incident.

580 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:57:12am

I just refuse to accept massacres being the norm in this country.
Call me crazy.

581 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:57:25am

re: #577 Gus

"When you might shoot a friend in the face, be sure to bring some disinfectant."

582 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:57:32am

re: #575 jaunte

[Link: www.nrastore.com...]

The right thing to wear in Florida if you are a black teenager:

583 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:57:53am

re: #560 Gus

Insp Michael Brown
@MentalHealthCop

Interested in the natural venn diagram of policing, mental health and criminal justice. Winner of the 2012 Mark Hanson Digital Media Award from @MindCharity

Birmingham, UK · [Link: www.mentalhealthcop.wordpress.com...]

Is there a US version?

584 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:58:38am

re: #579 Gus

Bath salts. Don't forget how they all fell over backwards to create laws and ban "bath salts" after that face eating incident.

We're a reactive society, not a proactive one, primarily because of the growing distrust in government. When government tries to enact new regulations to prevent such tragedies, the response is "Hey, so what if I want do that, it's my right!" Then when the tragedy happens and good people are killed, suddenly the ones who spouted off about their rights get drowned out by those shocked at how such a tragedy could have happened and "Why didn't the government do something to prevent this?!"

585 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:58:50am

re: #583 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Is there a US version?

Don't know. This one seems interesting.

586 Skip Intro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:00:10am

re: #582 Sol Berdinowitz

nrastore seems to be doing a booming business today. I can't access the site to see what your post is about.

587 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:01:17am

re: #586 Skip Intro

nrastore seems to be doing a booming business today. I can't access the site to see what your post is about.

nra hoodies

588 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:01:34am

re: #585 Gus

Don't know. This one seems interesting.

A lot of good resources, I paged it.

I used to get a lot of info from NAMI and other sources. I never thought the information and the message was "In your face" enough to really get to the point. But these organizations have to take the long view and over time they have made good changes happen.

I'll have to find time to reintroduce myself to mental health advocacy. I"ve been bogged down in the War on Women.

589 Ming  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:01:36am

re: #31 Ghost of Tom Joad

I'd rather it just be a trained security guard or cop stationed there. Hell, even the grade schools around here have full-time security teams. Might as well train them, or hire ex-cops or something. I'd rather a trained professional than a principal packing heat.

I agree. A related suggestion is to spend more money on local police and sheriff departments, so an officer is either right there at the school, or likely to be close by.

As the recent shooting at the Empire State Building showed, things can go wrong even with trained professionals. But still, better a trained professional than an amateur.

Ideally, I'd like to see some gun control. Why can the government regulate who can drive a car, but not who can walk around with an assault rifle? But until that happens, we apparently could use more funding of, and protection by, trained law enforcement.

590 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:02:57am

The "There was a knife attack in China, let's ban knives" canard is fucking everywhere, by the way. Echo chamber.

591 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:03:55am

re: #503 Varek Raith

For a start, responsible gun owners should ditch the NRA. Cancel your memberships and cut off financial donations.
The NRA is the epitome of irresponsible gun policies.

1) Many of us have. I have never given the NRA a penny since I was of age.
2) The NRA is far from the worst out there. Go check the Gun Owners of America sometime...

592 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:04:11am

re: #566 Gus

Uh, the point wasn't about a "Constitutional right to explosive shoes." The point was society's reactions to incidents.

...and if you want a smart and effective reaction I suggest utilizing smart and effective ideas. Junking up the national conversation with apples and oranges comparisons and silly talking points is counter productive. I think something may come of this incident but I suspect it's going to be another useless initiative to appease public opinion rather than anything to fix the problem. We'll probably end up with a congressional investigation into the video game industry. At best we'll get some minor cosmetic tweak to gun control but probably nothing that would have prevented this attack or any other.

593 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:04:58am

re: #590 The Ghost of a Flea

The "There was a knife attack in China, let's ban knives" canard is fucking everywhere, by the way. Echo chamber.

"Cars kill more people than guns, let's ban cars!"

I agree with sentiment expressed yesterday that nobody is proposing we ban cars, but they also aren't proposing we do away with stop signs and signal lights.

594 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:05:18am

re: #591 William Barnett-Lewis

1) Many of us have. I have never given the NRA a penny since I was of age.
2) The NRA is far from the worst out there. Go check the Gun Owners of America sometime...

The NRA influences a massive number of politicians.

595 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:05:25am

re: #591 William Barnett-Lewis

1) Many of us have. I have never given the NRA a penny since I was of age.
2) The NRA is far from the worst out there. Go check the Gun Owners of America sometime...

How about these guys?

596 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:05:35am

re: #592 Killgore Trout

...and if you want a smart and effective reaction I suggest utilizing smart and effective ideas. Junking up the national conversation with apples and oranges comparisons and silly talking points is counter productive. I think something may come of this incident but I suspect it's going to be another useless initiative to appease public opinion rather than anything to fix the problem. We'll probably end up with a congressional investigation into the video game industry. At best we'll get some minor cosmetic tweak to gun control but probably nothing that would have prevented this attack or any other.

Sorry. But it seems as though you're the one that wants to get stuck on that meme. No, that's not all that people are saying out there.

597 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:07:15am

re: #592 Killgore Trout

...and if you want a smart and effective reaction I suggest utilizing smart and effective ideas. Junking up the national conversation with apples and oranges comparisons and silly talking points is counter productive. I think something may come of this incident but I suspect it's going to be another useless initiative to appease public opinion rather than anything to fix the problem. We'll probably end up with a congressional investigation into the video game industry. At best we'll get some minor cosmetic tweak to gun control but probably nothing that would have prevented this attack or any other.

And yet, we do come up with lots of restrictions to other crimes and things terrorists have done.
Yet, we ignore the gun issue. So my post was not apples and oranges. It was pointing out that we reacted strongly to ONE person and explosive shoes and yet don't react at all when 20 kids get killed.

598 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:08:17am

re: #597 Varek Raith

Or when a theater gets shot up.
Or malls.
Or a number of schools.
All brushed aside.

599 Skip Intro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:08:30am

re: #593 Targetpractice

"Cars kill more people than guns, let's ban cars!"

I don't think you can kill a group of people from a distance with a car.

600 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:10:22am

re: #591 William Barnett-Lewis

1) Many of us have. I have never given the NRA a penny since I was of age.
2) The NRA is far from the worst out there. Go check the Gun Owners of America sometime...

The NRA teamed-up with the Second Amendment Foundation to prosecute in New Orleans when the police started confiscating guns. Which was a clear violation of the law. That was a good thing.

Much of the behind the scenes legal work is valid and the only resource people have who have been denied their right to self-defense. It's the rhetoric and paranoia of the marketing/fundraising wing that is a big problem.

The NRA is really the only organization with real education and training for gun use and the legal issues for civilians. I find this sad. There is also real lack of including the real demographics of this country. This I find insane. I think they NRA will cease to exist by simple attrition of his membership in less than 100 years.

601 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:10:48am

re: #595 Sol Berdinowitz

How about these guys?

Come over here instead:

The Liberal Gun Club

We're trying to make a real difference but it's a hard row when the left assumes your paranoid and the right assumes you can't be a gun owner and be liberal.

602 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:10:57am

re: #598 Varek Raith

Or when a theater gets shot up.
Or malls.
Or a number of schools.
All brushed aside.

Gun control deniers.

603 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:11:18am

Space heater is a lie.

604 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:12:01am

re: #603 Gus

Space heater is a lie.

Space is a cold and lonely place.

605 Mattand  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:12:47am

re: #538 Varek Raith

One moron tries to blow up his explosive shoes and we all gotta take off our shoes at airports.
Multiple morons massacre hundreds of people and 'oh well, what can you do about it?'

WTF.

With your permission, I may post this to my FB account later.

606 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:13:42am
607 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:13:55am
608 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:14:42am

re: #604 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Space is a cold and lonely place.

In space, no one can hear you scream.

609 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:15:24am
610 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:15:40am

I think POTUS address moved a lot of people. Hubby who is not an Obama fan, thought it was from the heart and said it was a good speech.

The age of these kids has affected a lot of people not previously affected by mass shootings in this country.

611 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:15:46am

re: #572 Targetpractice

Thing is, there's always going to be a point of failure. If it's not mechanical, it'll be human. See also the initial report that he was buzzed in by the faculty because his mother worked there.

Still a lot of misinformation on that one with no clear answer but supposedly according to a couple of sources his mother had worked there for a little while as an aide years ago. He had also attended school there years before, but it sounds as though they had not seen him since he attended school there. I'm not convinced that they would have buzzed him in without finding out who he was and what he wanted.

612 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:16:03am

Don't go a year without hearing about a cop, a trained professional, shooting a kid or adult due to making a bad call. Now I'm supposed to believe teachers with a weekend gun course and a couple rounds at the shooting range will totally avoid shooting students by accident.

613 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:19:35am

re: #593 Targetpractice

"Cars kill more people than guns, let's ban cars!"

I agree with sentiment expressed yesterday that nobody is proposing we ban cars, but they also aren't proposing we do away with stop signs and signal lights.

I wonder why the NRA doesn't also propose doing away with vehicle licensing, registration, pre-licensing driving tests, mandatory liability insurance, different types of requirements for different types of vehicles (e.g., 18-wheeler vs. motorcycle vs. passenger car), annual safety inspections...

And how about all the various ways you can fuck up and have your license removed? Driving drunk is a big one, but so is shirking your insurance responsibility. It's also frowned upon to drive around at 100MPH in a truck with no brakes and no turn signals.

We all live this way without feeling like we're living in a totalitarian hellhole**. It's just stuff you have to do if you want a car. Some people don't want the hassle, and have found ways to live without cars. But apparently it's preferable to soak your balls in lighter fluid, strike a match, and dance around singing "Disco Inferno" rather than even *consider* POSSIBLY adapting some of those concepts to firearms.

** unless we're crazy, or we're Alex Jones, in which case

teh sheeple better wake up and see the prison bars all around them

or something.

614 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:20:14am

re: #612 Targetpractice

Don't go a year without hearing about a cop, a trained professional, shooting a kid or adult due to making a bad call. Now I'm supposed to believe teachers with a weekend gun course and a couple rounds at the shooting range will totally avoid shooting students by accident.

I am going to make a generality. Most teachers of elementary children I've met aren't candidates for gun ownership. They just aren't made that way. They are people who are working to promote peace and cooperation in the work they do. Switching gears to violent defense just isn't in their nature. Many I've met are Ghandi types who's nature would be to die before they willfully took another life. I don't totally understand this, but it is part of what makes them excellent at working with young children.

Not all, of course, but I said I was going to make a general statement.

615 Skip Intro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:21:06am

re: #612 Targetpractice

Don't go a year without hearing about a cop, a trained professional, shooting a kid or adult due to making a bad call. Now I'm supposed to believe teachers with a weekend gun course and a couple rounds at the shooting range will totally avoid shooting students by accident.

The assumption seems to be that they'll be like bots whose concentration on guard duty never falters. How they'll also be effective teachers is a mystery.

It also assumes that they'll never turn their backs to the class or the door, and they'll have their weapons at the ready at all times. Your point that trained pros who do this for a living still make mistakes is just icing on the cake.

616 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:21:24am
617 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:21:46am

The same peole who argue that "guns don't kill. people do" have no problem seizing on the idea that the mere presence of guns somewhere will help protect people

618 Skip Intro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:22:24am

re: #617 Sol Berdinowitz

The same peole who argue that "guns don't kill. people do" have no problem seizing on the idea that the mere presence of guns somewhere will help protect people

That didn't work out so well for the mother of the shooter.

619 McSpiff  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:22:35am

So sad, all so sad. I'm not American, don't live in America. But I think there needs to be some serious soul searching done on the 2nd. Why should everyone have the right to shoot up a school? Because giving access to military grade weapons essentially gives everyone that right. As we keep seeing again and again...

620 Skip Intro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:24:47am

re: #619 McSpiff

Without the Second Amendment, how would we get rid of tyrants?

Image: 548763_536583246354976_1513374192_n.png

621 McSpiff  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:26:03am

re: #620 Skip Intro

Without the Second Amendment, how would we get rid of tyrants?

Image: 548763_536583246354976_1513374192_n.png

Just gotta have more guns. Then the world will conform to their world view, if it likes it or not.

622 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:26:29am

re: #616 Gus

[Embedded content]

To a point. I think it does prevent many criminals, but not whackos. There is something about the mindset I've never been able to articulate. People I know who have grown up with guns (like me) or are shooters--actually aren't victims of crimes. I think it's a lot like the victims of abusers can always be picked-out of a crowd (or at a bar) by abusers. A confidence thing? a sense that "this person will fight back" or "isn't an easy mark". I don't know.

It's an inner psychological thing.

I'm always returning to the women I know who are so fearful of guns they won't even talk about them. I really worry that some idiot will try to steal their car or rape them with a painted over child's toy gun and they will submit, so fearful they won't even try to recognize the weapon the person is using.

623 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:27:05am

re: #619 McSpiff

The 2nd Amendment keeps being brought up as if its an absolute argument stopper, but it was written back when many people still had to hunt to eat meat. Not to mention the "well-regulated militia" part that seems to be ignored by the NRA lobby. We've had a lot of modifications to laws under the Constitution, so the 2nd should not be immune.

624 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:27:09am

re: #605 Mattand

With your permission, I may post this to my FB account later.

Cool beans.

625 Political Atheist  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:29:28am

re: #552 Obdicut

There is no comparison between the NRA's promotion of paranoia and the ACLU's defense of unpopular speech. None. It is a terrible, terrible comparison to draw, especially in the current circumstances.

Did I specify the ACLU and NRA it's paranoia? No, I did not. You added that specificity all on your own. You added your layer of perception to mine as if I were promoting the paranoia and not the safety education side. So now I have to make that distinction clear. Again. As if I did not make that distinction as clear as crystal above.

The circumstances are terrible. Let's not forget many people died in many places because of the hateful anti Islamic video. Those who favor restricting speech, favor not having a first amendment drew this connection. Because where they live the man that made that video could be prosecuted and not here. Not for the video content.

Rights advocates are held responsible for the abuses of that right. Whether that should be so is a whole other topic.

I'm out to wait for enough calm about this incident that words are not being put in my mouth.

626 McSpiff  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:29:51am

re: #622 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I'm going to posit that a M4-style Bushmaster has never been used to stop a rape. I would imagine that several rapes have involved the phrase "Do I need to get my gun out?", but I could be wrong.

627 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:31:02am

re: #622 Holidays are Family Fun Time

To a point. I think it does prevent many criminals, but not whackos. There is something about the mindset I've never been able to articulate. People I know who have grown up with guns (like me) or are shooters--actually aren't victims of crimes. I think it's a lot like the victims of abusers can always be picked-out of a crowd (or at a bar) by abusers. A confidence thing? a sense that "this person will fight back" or "isn't an easy mark". I don't know.

It's an inner psychological thing.

I'm always returning to the women I know who are so fearful of guns they won't even talk about them. I really worry that some idiot will try to steal their car or rape them with a painted over child's toy gun and they will submit, so fearful they won't even try to recognize the weapon the person is using.

I think she means the idea of arming everyone which is an idea that's been thrown about of late. I would say that a solution of more guns would be worse than what we face now. In fact, I would prefer to maintain the status quo over an idea of arming more people.

628 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:33:11am
629 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:34:12am

re: #628 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

[Embedded content]

They did, ages ago. 1934 to be exact. Owning one today is a matter of much headache and money. Most owning automatic weapons aren't the sort who would spend that much time and money just to go on a shooting rampage.

630 McSpiff  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:34:17am

re: #628 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

[Embedded content]

Well, lets not go crazy. That might cost him viewers.

631 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:35:40am

re: #623 jaunte

The 2nd Amendment keeps being brought up as if its an absolute argument stopper, but it was written back when many people still had to hunt to eat meat. Not to mention the "well-regulated militia" part that seems to be ignored by the NRA lobby. We've had a lot of modifications to laws under the Constitution, so the 2nd should not be immune.

"well regulated"

The point, for me, is that self-defence is not articulated in the Constitution. The 2nd amendent as part of the Bill of Rights is the closest thing we have to wording that prevents the government from removing individual right to self defense.

What seems like such an obvious right has been removed from citizens in history. It's a big deal. and it's an Individual Choice to defend oneself or not.

I'd be in favor of an amendment to the this effect:

The federal or state governments may not deny individual citizens the right to defend their bodies, their families or their property from imminent danger by what ever means possible.

I think denying the government ability to remove the right of self defense from individuals would stop a lot of the fear and the rhetoric about making us all slaves, tyrants etc.

I also think you can't remove the choice if it goes the other way. If one is truly non-violent, one can't be prosecuted for not defending themselves, or others.

Like reproductive rights, it's about individual choice.

632 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:35:48am

re: #628 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

[Embedded content]

633 McSpiff  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:36:31am

re: #629 Targetpractice

They did, ages ago. 1934 to be exact. Owning one today is a matter of much headache and money. Most owning automatic weapons aren't the sort who would spend that much time and money just to go on a shooting rampage.

Don't be obtuse.

634 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:36:48am

re: #632 Gus

[Embedded content]

635 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:37:28am
636 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:39:21am

re: #627 Gus

I think she means the idea of arming everyone which is an idea that's been thrown about of late. I would say that a solution of more guns would be worse than what we face now. In fact, I would prefer to maintain the status quo over an idea of arming more people.

oh, yes, arming everyone for the sake of arming everyone is ludicrous. My gentleman shooter father was adamant about that. He wasn't showing his old- fashioned racists self in this instance. He counseled a lot of people and many he told that they didn't have to own a gun.

He grew-up shooting for his food, literally, before rural electricity type person. That mindset and culture is over. He always saw the gun as a tool for a specific purpose and as proficient for the purposes he thought he would need. Home defense and getting food. Not trophys.

637 aagcobb  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:40:27am

re: #629 Targetpractice

They did, ages ago. 1934 to be exact. Owning one today is a matter of much headache and money. Most owning automatic weapons aren't the sort who would spend that much time and money just to go on a shooting rampage.

That is kind of not the point. If most people owning automatic weapons went on shooting rampages, we would be living in Somalia of Afghanistan. The fact is that allowing people to own automatic weapons makes it easy for the few mentally ill people who do go on shooting rampages to kill lots of people.

638 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:40:53am
639 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:41:06am

re: #629 Targetpractice

They did, ages ago. 1934 to be exact. Owning one today is a matter of much headache and money. Most owning automatic weapons aren't the sort who would spend that much time and money just to go on a shooting rampage.

OMG! the Machine Gun shoot in Kentucky every year. I hear a lot about that. Men plan for it every year. Something about paying lots of money for the opportunity to shoot a machine gun. I just don't get it. It's totally a guy thing.

640 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:42:17am

Derp.

641 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:42:45am

I think places like Somalia, Libia and Syria are proof that anyone who really wants a gun can get one --lots of them, legally or illegally.

Repression doesn't work.

642 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:43:37am

Not to be a jerk, but as an outsider I see a well defined and fairly powerful undercurrent of fear in a large sub-population of the US. I don't see that same undercurrent in countries like the UK (despite groups like the EDL) where they've suffered repeated attacks throughout their history.

Is this because of isolation or from propaganda?

643 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:43:52am

re: #633 McSpiff

Don't be obtuse.

Why is the truth obtuse? Because you don't want to be bothered knowing the difference? There are many significant differences between a real assault rifle and the black plastic semi-automatic weapons on the market.

Even more different are the M1 Garands or Remington 742 deer rifles that would be banned if you ban all semi-automatic weapons.

And don't give me another worthless "Assault weapon ban" that banned nothing and stopped no crimes.

644 McSpiff  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:44:32am

re: #641 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I think places like Somalia, Libia and Syria are proof that anyone who really wants a gun can get one --lots of them, legally or illegally.

Repression doesn't work.

What? What restrictions are there on guns in Somalia? Derp.

645 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:46:05am

re: #642 b_sharp

Acculturated hypervigilance. Sort of a societal PTSD.

646 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:46:39am

re: #645 jaunte

Acculturated hypervigilance. Sort of a societal PTSD.

Corollary with white flight in some instances.

647 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:46:44am

re: #637 aagcobb

That is kind of not the point. If most people owning automatic weapons went on shooting rampages, we would be living in Somalia of Afghanistan. The fact is that allowing people to own automatic weapons makes it easy for the few mentally ill people who do go on shooting rampages to kill lots of people.

Full Auto Weapons

It has been unlawful since 1934 (The National Firearms Act) for civilians to own machine guns without special permission from the U.S. Treasury Department. Machine guns are subject to a $200 tax every time their ownership changes from one federally registered owner to another, and each new weapon is subject to a manufacturing tax when it is made, and it must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in its National Firearms Registry.

To become a registered owner, a complete FBI background investigation is conducted, checking for any criminal history or tendencies toward violence, and an application must be submitted to the ATF including two sets of fingerprints, a recent photo, a sworn affidavit that transfer of the NFA firearm is of "reasonable necessity," and that sale to and possession of the weapon by the applicant "would be consistent with public safety." The application form also requires the signature of a chief law enforcement officer with jurisdiction in the applicant's residence.

Since the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of May 19, 1986, ownership of newly manufactured machine guns has been prohibited to civilians. Machine guns which were manufactured prior to the Act's passage are regulated under the National Firearms Act, but those manufactured after the ban cannot ordinarily be sold to or owned by civilians.

648 McSpiff  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:49:32am

re: #643 William Barnett-Lewis

Why is the truth obtuse? Because you don't want to be bothered knowing the difference? There are many significant differences between a real assault rifle and the black plastic semi-automatic weapons on the market.

Even more different are the M1 Garands or Remington 742 deer rifles that would be banned if you ban all semi-automatic weapons.

And don't give me another worthless "Assault weapon ban" that banned nothing and stopped no crimes.

I absolutely understand the difference, but thanks for being an asshole anyways. I would never advocate a ban on something as narrow as semi-automatic weapons. That's dumb, we both agree. What needs to be looked at is the availability of weapons designed to fire a large number of rounds in as short of a time as possible, with in some cases an added element of concealment. 5 round semi-auto long-gun style deer hunting rifle like the M1 or 742 is very different from something like the civilian model, semi-auto M4s or TEC-9s. But I'm sure you already understood that.

649 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:49:43am

re: #644 McSpiff

What? What restrictions are there on guns in Somalia? Derp.

IIRC, the local government "sheriff" decides if you can have one, even if you qualify under the gun laws (which they did have). Most of those sheriffs are political appointees --i this case the regime is muslim. People in the south were Christians and Animists. Made it really hard for the southern farmers to defend their farms --and many are now refugees. Ethnic cleansing by lack of self-defense?

I haven't researched this In a couple years so the information is old may have been refuted.

IANSA published, at one time, the list of gun laws for what ever countries publshed them. I think, like a lot of human rights laws, a lot are worded to please the International Community and as a goal, but aren't strictly followed yet.

650 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:50:54am

re: #625 Political Atheist

Did I specify the ACLU and NRA it's paranoia? No, I did not. You added that specificity all on your own. You added your layer of perception to mine as if I were promoting the paranoia and not the safety education side. So now I have to make that distinction clear. Again. As if I did not make that distinction as clear as crystal above.

You specified the ACLU, which at its worst does a great service in defending unpopular speech, and the NRA, which at its worst promotes paranoia. You cannot promote the safety educational side of the NRA while rejecting the paranoia. You cannot compare them to the ACLU, which does no such thing. It is a terrible comparison, and especially in the current circumstances.

You were the one who brought up the ACLU defending unpopular speech as the analogy to the NRA's promotion of paranoia. You really did.

The worst of the NRA has made it's best gun responsibility and safety efforts unwelcome, even among those who call for increased safety education, rules and requirements.

I know people who feel the same way about the ACLU for backing free speech by people & groups quite hateful.

You weren't comparing the good the ACLU does with the good the NRA does, you were saying you know people who are turned off by the 'bad' side of the NRA in the same way people are turned off from the ACLU for backing free speech by people. It is not the same. Defending unpopular free speech is a good thing. Promoting paranoia is not.

I put no words in your mouth. It was deeply foolish of you to compare the ACLU and the NRA.

651 McSpiff  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:50:55am

re: #649 Holidays are Family Fun Time

IIRC, the local government "sheriff" decides if you can have one, even if you qualify under the gun laws (which they did have). Most of those sheriffs are political appointees --i this case the regime is muslim. People in the south were Christians and Animists. Made it really hard for the southern farmers to defend their farms --and many are now refugees. Ethnic cleansing by lack of self-defense?

I haven't researched this In a couple years so the information is old may have been refuted.

IANSA published, at one time, the list of gun laws for what ever countries publshed them. I think, like a lot of human rights laws, a lot are worded to please the International Community and as a goal, but aren't strictly followed yet.

...if you actually believe everything you just posted I highly suggest you do some actual research before posting about it.

652 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:51:17am

Gotta run to work so I have to type this quickly.

Here's my answer to this problem.

Put long range RFID chips on all guns, possibly the same with gun licenses.
Say that only police and guards are allowed in public places with guns.

If anyone shows up on a campus or mall or stadium carrying a gun that isn't licensed to be there, the police automatically issue a warrant for the owner's arrest and show up.

Also, of course, make it a jail offense to own or sell an unchipped gun.

653 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:52:19am

re: #646 Gus

Corollary with white flight in some instances.

Which is?

654 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:52:52am
655 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:52:57am

re: #648 McSpiff

I absolutely understand the difference, but thanks for being an asshole anyways. I would never advocate a ban on something as narrow as semi-automatic weapons. That's dumb, we both agree. What needs to be looked at is the availability of weapons designed to fire a large number of rounds in as short of a time as possible, with in some cases an added element of concealment. 5 round semi-auto long-gun style deer hunting rifle like the M1 or 742 is very different from something like the civilian model, semi-auto M4s or TEC-9s. But I'm sure you already understood that.

What Rupert is doing is muddying the water, if not just being an idiot. Truly automatic weapons are already heavily regulated, they're not being used to gun down civilians. This is where we get into situations like the "Assault Weapon Ban," which ended up being rightfully ridiculed for going after weapons because they looked scary rather than their capacity for being use to commit murder on a large scale in a short period of time.

656 McSpiff  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:54:17am

re: #655 Targetpractice

What Rupert is doing is muddying the water, if not just being an idiot. Truly automatic weapons are already heavily regulated, they're not being used to gun down civilians. This is where we get into situations like the "Assault Weapon Ban," which ended up being rightfully ridiculed for going after weapons because they looked scary rather than their capacity for being use to commit murder on a large scale in a short period of time.

Yes, the AWB was bad policy for a number reasons. I don't think hes muddying the waters in this case, but YMMV

658 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:55:19am

re: #655 Targetpractice

In the setting these weapons are used, handguns are usually the most 'effective'. Rifles are for shooting at people long distance. These assholes like being close. Murdoch is either out of touch or intentionally obtuse.

659 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:56:00am

In 2012, total gun deaths in the UK, where gun ownership is essentially banned outright: 39.

In 2012, total gun deaths in the US, where gun ownership is promoted by the pro-gun lobby as a panacea: 94,134.

If anyone wants to argue that more guns = less crime, explain those numbers first.

660 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:56:14am

re: #653 b_sharp

Which is?

The "black on white crime" and "race war" crowd.

661 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:56:38am

re: #647 Targetpractice

Full Auto Weapons

Another example of lack of education.

The ugly looking guns must be more dangerous. Fine wooden carved stocks and gleaming barrels, must be safe guns.

Hell, the semi-auto military style rifle I held in Gun Safety was so heavy It had to be handed to me and removed. I couldn't lift it and position it without wrenching my shoulder and elbow. It's just not a gun everyone can fire accurately. The idea that everyone wants one is insane to me. There were no fully-automatics available for trial because it IS ILLEGAL FOR CIVILIANS TO HAVE THEM. The NRA gun-nut instructors made that very clear. Shit, a retired Army Ranger taught the rifle section of the 1 course I took.

How our soldiers do it with 100+ lb packs of equipment in the desert heat is a marvel to me.

Kids I know who took the hunters safety course (the one you an get a boy scout badge for, I think) Now are movie experts. They know everything that is wrong in what the movie producers portray.

Ignorance does us NO GOOD.

662 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:57:54am

re: #658 Obdicut

Murdoch is being obtuse. And that is being very polite.

663 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:58:23am

re: #655 Targetpractice

What Rupert is doing is muddying the water, if not just being an idiot. Truly automatic weapons are already heavily regulated, they're not being used to gun down civilians. This is where we get into situations like the "Assault Weapon Ban," which ended up being rightfully ridiculed for going after weapons because they looked scary rather than their capacity for being use to commit murder on a large scale in a short period of time.

QFT.

664 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:59:07am

I don't know why the British and Canadians are so much better at not attacking each other, in the absence of deadly home defense capability.

665 McSpiff  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:59:24am

re: #659 Charles Johnson

In 2012, total gun deaths in the UK, where gun ownership is essentially banned outright: 39.

In 2012, total gun deaths in the US, where gun ownership is promoted by the pro-gun lobby as a panacea: 94,134.

If anyone wants to argue that more guns = less crime, explain those numbers first.

In Canada, where generally only long guns with low magazine counts are available for hunting, 173 (2009). Its almost like when you restrict firearms access to hunting, the problem nearly goes away. There is a middle ground between full gun ownership and full banning. That's what America needs to embrace.

666 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:59:24am

Thought exercise:

If the school shooter were named Muhammed instead of Adam, how would the media and right wing bloggers be covering this?

667 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:59:35am

Clearly a war on video games is warranted.

668 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 10:59:50am

re: #651 McSpiff

I haven't researched this In a couple years so the information is old may have been refuted.

selective reader?

669 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:00:08am

Farming Simulator for everyone!!!!

670 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:00:37am

re: #669 Amory Blaine

Farming Simulator for everyone!!!!

Uh...
It's actually kind of fun.
Really.
/Weirdo

671 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:00:48am

re: #667 Amory Blaine

Clearly a war on video games is warranted.

Jack Thompson's ears just perked up.

672 McSpiff  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:00:50am

re: #668 Holidays are Family Fun Time

selective reader?

Your information was wrong nearly 30 years ago.

673 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:01:07am

re: #666 Randall Gross

"We have to consider a total Muhammad ban."

674 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:01:30am

re: #670 Varek Raith

Uh...
It's actually kind of fun.
Really.
/Weirdo

Really? Huh, might have to look into it.

675 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:01:34am

re: #658 Obdicut

In the setting these weapons are used, handguns are usually the most 'effective'. Rifles are for shooting at people long distance. These assholes like being close. Murdoch is either out of touch or intentionally obtuse.

The latter.

676 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:01:42am

re: #671 Targetpractice

Jack Thompson's ears just perked up.

Hey, Jack!
I played GTA III yesterday.

677 Skip Intro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:02:20am

re: #667 Amory Blaine

Clearly a war on video games is warranted.

I don't know if video games, movies, tv, popular culture, something else, or some combination of the above convinces young people that going out in a murderous rage is a cool thing to do, but something sure does. I'd like to know what it is.

678 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:02:20am

re: #666 Randall Gross

If the school shooter were named Muhammed, how would the media and right wing bloggers be covering this?

I don't want to know.

679 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:02:24am

re: #670 Varek Raith

I want to try it out myself!

680 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:02:44am

Oooh.... I got the number of the beast with that comment.

681 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:02:56am

re: #674 Targetpractice

Really? Huh, might have to look into it.

Like I said, I'm odd.
;)
Though, I totally recommend this
[Link: www.trainzportal.com...]

682 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:03:40am

re: #677 Skip Intro

Why did you leave "experience shooting real guns" off your list?

683 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:03:56am

re: #672 McSpiff

Your information was wrong nearly 30 years ago.

So, instead of being snarky, simply say that. Give me a place to start my research for correct information.

Your knowledge seems to be up-to-date, where do you get your info. Share and cooperate if you are really interested in educating.

684 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:04:16am

re: #677 Skip Intro

I don't know if video games, movies, tv, popular culture, something else, or some combination of the above convinces young people that going out in a murderous rage is a cool thing to do, but something sure does. I'd like to know what it is.

The average American gets more upset with the thought of their kids seeing sex on TV/movie than seeing gun violence.

685 Skip Intro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:04:40am

re: #682 stabby

Why did you leave "experience shooting real guns" off your list?

Do you think that's the cause? Feel free to include that as part of "something else" then.

686 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:05:06am

re: #681 Varek Raith

Like I said, I'm odd.
;)
Though, I totally recommend this
[Link: www.trainzportal.com...]

Something my dad would probably enjoy, he's been big on trains since he was a kid.

Was hoping that Microsoft Flight making a comeback would last longer, but alas, that was not meant to be.

687 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:06:06am

re: #686 Targetpractice

Something my dad would probably enjoy, he's been big on trains since he was a kid.

Was hoping that Microsoft Flight making a comeback would last longer, but alas, that was not meant to be.

It's a great replacement for those who don't have the money or space for a train layout.

688 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:06:25am

re: #684 b_sharp

The American justice system would punish a kid for having sex at school more harshly than it would punish one for shooting someone at school, so apparently we have our priorities in order.

689 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:07:47am

re: #685 Skip Intro

I think shooting actual guns probably correlates to gun violence a lot more than playing call of duty.

690 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:09:05am

re: #689 stabby

I think shooting actual guns probably correlates to gun violence a lot more than playing call of duty.

I'll say that if my CoD experience is enough to train me for combat, then I'm more a liability than an asset. Might as well have "bullet magnet" tattooed across my forehead.

691 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:09:29am

After all, kids in countries where people DON'T shoot each other say Japan and England play plenty of video games.

692 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:09:30am

I routinely glass planets.
GTA? Play it a lot.
Watch violent animes a lot.
Don't see me picking up a gun and killing people.

693 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:09:41am

Oh Noez!!! Little Billie saw boobz. Off to church for some penance then we'll go to the shooting range to talk about it.

695 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:10:26am

re: #691 stabby

After all, kids in countries where people DON'T shoot each other say Japan and England play plenty of video games.

Japan is also big into Airsoft, which is about as close as the average teen is going to get to owning a real gun unless he joins the military or police force.

696 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:10:44am

Of course, before video games, it was the music.
Before music, it was comic books.
Yeppers.

697 Interesting Times  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:10:46am

re: #635 Gus

[Embedded content]

FFFFFFUUUUUUU...

Nancy Lanza was an avid gun collector who once showed him a "really nice, high-end rifle" that she had purchased, said Dan Holmes, owner of a landscaping business who recently decorated her yard with Christmas garlands and lights. "She said she would often go target shooting with her kids."

MOAR GUNZ! MOAR GUNZ! MOAR GUNZ!

...now, wouldn't it be the ultimate kick in the nuts if it turned out she was an NRA member as well?

698 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:10:57am

re: #659 Charles Johnson

In 2012, total gun deaths in the UK, where gun ownership is essentially banned outright: 39.

In 2012, total gun deaths in the US, where gun ownership is promoted by the pro-gun lobby as a panacea: 94,134.

If anyone wants to argue that more guns = less crime, explain those numbers first.

Where are these numbers from? Love to take a look.

699 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:11:27am

I see laser tag places sprouting up here and there recently.

700 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:11:43am

re: #696 Varek Raith

Dungeons and Dragons!!

701 Sol Berdinowitz  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:11:46am

re: #666 Randall Gross

If the school shooter were named Muhammed, how would the media and right wing bloggers be covering this?

Considering the number of men named Muhammed, there would have been even more confusion about the identity of the killer...

702 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:11:49am

ICP caused Columbine!
No, wait!
It was Doom!

703 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:12:31am

re: #702 Varek Raith

ICP cause Comlumbine!
No, wait!
It was Doom!

Down with John Romero!

//

704 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:12:38am

Anyway I'll say this again

Put long range RFID chips on all guns people can buy and automatically detect whenever a gun comes into a school + make selling and owning unchipped guns a jail offense. Put detectors in all public places - ones that dial the police.

See, problems are solvable.

705 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:12:46am

Always with the scapegoats.

706 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:13:16am

re: #689 stabby

I think shooting actual guns probably correlates to gun violence a lot more than playing call of duty.

Per your earlier posts. I don't think RFID chips would work. Those chips stick to plastic, metal or cardboard. You simply remove the sticker and security never knows you have a gun.

707 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:14:37am

re: #706 A Man for all Seasons

build them into the barrels.

if anyone suspects that you're a nutcase the police can inspect your guns to see if you removed the chip.

If you did you go to jail before committing a crime.

708 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:15:12am

I meant build them into the HANDLES

709 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:15:46am

re: #704 stabby

RFID is too short-range.

710 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:15:53am

though it might be possible to build one into metal with some engineering research

711 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:16:20am

RFID is also really easy to block.

712 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:16:36am

re: #709 Obdicut

The range probably depends on the detectors more than the chips.

Longer range systems could be built

713 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:17:25am

re: #711 Obdicut

If we can detect GPS signals from earth, we can free up a band like that to detect guns.

714 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:17:52am

re: #707 stabby

build them into the barrels.

if anyone suspects that you're a nutcase the police can inspect your guns to see if you removed the chip.

If you did you go to jail before committing a crime.

Do you really think this would get passed? Really? And then force people to bring in all 290,000,000 old guns? Without massive violence?

715 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:18:18am

re: #712 stabby

It's unworkable. Completely. RFID is easy to block. Any sort of radiation that is safe is going to be easy to block. You'd need a massive network of detectors, including on every window. It won't work.

716 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:18:31am

re: #714 William Barnett-Lewis

Do you really think this would get passed? Really? And then force people to bring in all 290,000,000 old guns? Without massive violence?

Responsible gun owners!
e_e

717 dragonfire1981  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:18:43am

I'm not a gun expert but I was under the impression it was relatively easy to convert a semi-automatic weapon to a full auto weapon, thus rendering any bans on such weapons effectively moot.

718 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:18:50am

re: #714 William Barnett-Lewis

It would require some massive phase in.

And in 20 years the problem would be much better.

719 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:18:51am

re: #707 stabby

build them into the barrels.

if anyone suspects that you're a nutcase the police can inspect your guns to see if you removed the chip.

If you did you go to jail before committing a crime.

I'm not a gun guy but I'm pretty sure if you place a label with a chip in the barrel and fire your gun It would blow up in your face.
But some here know so much about guns. Target?

720 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:19:05am
721 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:19:19am

re: #716 Varek Raith

Responsible gun owners!
e_e

Irony.

722 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:19:48am

re: #716 Varek Raith

Responsible gun owners!
e_e

There's a hell of a lot of fear out there already. Do you really want to play into it?

723 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:20:01am

Force us to do anything with are gunz and we'll start shootin'!

//

724 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:20:04am

re: #522 Gus

@margbrennan

#SecClinton dehydrated from stomach bug, fainted & sustained a concussion per StateDept's Philippe Reines. Recovering @ home

Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi!!!

725 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:20:36am

re: #722 William Barnett-Lewis

There's a hell of a lot of fear out there already. Do you really want to play into it?

Paranoia.
Thank you NRA!

726 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:21:15am

re: #713 stabby

If we can detect GPS signals from earth, we can free up a band like that to detect guns.

GPS is entirely different from RFID in so many ways it's difficult to count. If you want to make the proposal we chip every gun with a GPS tag, fine, but that will require an active power source on every gun, transmitting constantly.

727 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:21:19am

re: #715 Obdicut

We have a massive system of cell phone detectors.

We only need to place them all around public buildings.

For a while there was an alternate high speed, low latency computer wifi-like network in the bay area. They hung repeaters from lamp posts. Even a small company can do stuff

And the result was much better than cell broadband.

728 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:21:28am

re: #717 dragonfire1981

I'm not a gun expert but I was under the impression it was relatively easy to convert a semi-automatic weapon to a full auto weapon, thus rendering any bans on such weapons effectively moot.

It is quite hard.

729 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:21:30am

re: #718 stabby

It would require some massive phase in.

And in 20 years the problem would be much better.

Considering all but one of my guns are 50+ years old, it would take ever so much longer than you realize I think. Guns, unlike cars, have never been built with planned obsolescence.

730 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:21:51am

re: #727 stabby

We have a massive system of cell phone detectors.

Cell phones have active batteries. Please start listening.

731 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:22:33am

re: #726 Obdicut

No, my point was:

In an otherwise unused band, very small signals can be detected from very far away.

The engineering is possible.

732 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:23:16am

re: #715 Obdicut

It's unworkable. Completely. RFID is easy to block. Any sort of radiation that is safe is going to be easy to block. You'd need a massive network of detectors, including on every window. It won't work.

I know RFID technology and the most effective way to block the signal is to place it inside metal. That's why on metal you always place it on the outside so it is effective.

733 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:23:25am

re: #730 Obdicut

I believe that a non-active system could be designed to detect very long distances. It only has to be able to send very little data.

734 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:25:18am

re: #731 stabby

No, my point was:

In an otherwise unused band, very small signals can be detected from very far away.

The engineering is possible.

You are comparing passive things with active things, and you are refusing to understand the difference.

Cell phones, GPS-- these actively transmit. They have power sources. RFID chips passively are scanned (except for a few cases, which also require power sources).

Furthermore, any such signal would be blockable by a simple swatch of fabric wrapped around the gun.

Looking for whizz-bang solutions is foolish. There's some technological role that can help but it's not something as simple as "We'll just track all the guns all the time" or "we'll build a foolproof gun-detection system".

735 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:25:53am
736 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:26:02am

re: #733 stabby

I believe that a non-active system could be designed to detect very long distances. It only has to be able to send very little data.

What do you base this belief in? Any sort of knowledge of electronics or expertise with them?

Can you give an example of passive systems being detected from a very long distance? The current record for a RFID chip's detection is something like 70 feet.

737 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:26:14am

Remember when stores used to tag every item and put detectors at every entrance.

Shop lifting still happened.

There is always around around the rules and obstacles if someone is determined.

738 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:26:24am

re: #725 Varek Raith

Paranoia.
Thank you NRA!

Agreed. So what do you do for real?

Put in mandatory training in high school for starters. Get serious about mental health status & NICS. Move towards licensing new gun owners after about a generation & work on changing the culture in the meantime. And don't tie what you own to the license (your DL isn't tied to your car after all) to assuage the fear of confiscation.

739 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:28:04am

re: #738 William Barnett-Lewis

Agreed. So what do you do for real?

Put in mandatory training in high school for starters. Get serious about mental health status & NICS. Move towards licensing new gun owners after about a generation & work on changing the culture in the meantime. And don't tie what you own to the license (your DL isn't tied to your car after all) to assuage the fear of confiscation.

Thank you. I"d love to hear more ideas bantered around instead of propaganda and personalities.

740 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:28:04am

re: #738 William Barnett-Lewis

Agreed. So what do you do for real?

Put in mandatory training in high school for starters. Get serious about mental health status & NICS. Move towards licensing new gun owners after about a generation & work on changing the culture in the meantime. And don't tie what you own to the license (your DL isn't tied to your car after all) to assuage the fear of confiscation.

It'll never happen though.
The RW won't let it.

741 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:28:27am

re: #732 A Man for all Seasons

We might have to think carefully about how to design such a system using novel technology.

It's an engineering problem.

heh you could make guns neutron emitters and detect radiation but people would object to that

742 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:28:41am

re: #739 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Thank you. I"d love to hear more ideas bantered around instead of propaganda and personalities.

Huh, I'm spreading propaganda?
Or did I just stupidly misread your post?

743 Amory Blaine  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:28:53am

re: #726 Obdicut

We could power it with coal.

744 Targetpractice  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:30:05am

re: #737 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Remember when stores used to tag every item and put detectors at every entrance.

Shop lifting still happened.

There is always around around the rules and obstacles if someone is determined.

True, but the more obstacles you put in the way, the more determined one has to be to see it through. If you have to engage in a great deal of work for little reward, you're more likely to give up in discouragement.

745 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:30:29am

re: #741 stabby

"Novel technology". Yeah. So you've gone from 'the engineering is possible' to, "We'll have to invent a ton of shit".

746 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:30:59am

Stores can't have long range tags. They have thousands of tags and don't WANT to detect them all.

747 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:31:39am

re: #733 stabby

I believe that a non-active system could be designed to detect very long distances. It only has to be able to send very little data.

Another thing about RFID tags is that by their very nature it's very easy to induce too much current and burn them out. Takes less than one second at full power in a microwave.

748 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:32:01am

re: #741 stabby

We might have to think carefully about how to design such a system using novel technology.

It's an engineering problem.

heh you could make guns neutron emitters and detect radiation but people would object to that

We could also use those resources to invent an non-lethal weapon a civilian can use for reliable self-defence. That would solve a lot of issues, I think.

I want my Star-Trek Phaser. gosh darnit! :)

749 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:32:19am

re: #747 goddamnedfrank

Another thing about RFID tags is that by their very nature it's very easy to induce too much current and burn them out. Takes less than one second at full power in a microwave.

RFID implants for all gun owners!

//

750 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:32:24am

re: #724 wrenchwench

Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi!!!

[Embedded content]

Yep, Benghazi is baaaaaack! No nic change in my future.

751 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:33:16am

re: #746 stabby

Stores can't have long range tags. They have thousands of tags and don't WANT to detect them all.

You simply remove the Tag before leaving the store and no alarm go off.
I understand the frustration of making guns safer

752 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:34:21am

re: #742 Varek Raith

Huh, I'm spreading propaganda?
Or did I just stupidly misread your post?

I think it's just the idea I was trying to formulate proposals that might get political traction rather than knee jerk left or right, not your comments in particular.

Perhaps it wouldn't pass. But as a lefty who owns guns I have an interest in finding practical ways to keep people safe short of having "obama's trying to take my guns!" being the cassus belli of a second civil war

753 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:35:04am

re: #742 Varek Raith

Huh, I'm spreading propaganda?
Or did I just stupidly misread your post?

I think a lot of people are very frustrated and still venting. According to McSpiff I was very misinformed above, so also am not immune. Personal beliefs have to be reexamined.

Instead of pointing blame, I'd like to seem more cooperation in finding solutions.

WE can rant about the NRA or the ACLU or whatever, it's not going to get us anywhere.

754 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:35:13am

re: #747 goddamnedfrank

Another thing about RFID tags is that by their very nature it's very easy to induce too much current and burn them out. Takes less than one second at full power in a microwave.

plus you can put one of those sticky magnets like on your fridge over the chip and it blocks the signal..
Magnets..How do they work?
/

755 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:35:24am

re: #747 goddamnedfrank

Another thing about RFID tags is that by their very nature it's very easy to induce too much current and burn them out. Takes less than one second at full power in a microwave.

RFID tags are only good when you have complete control over the RFID tag. Otherwise, they're some of the most easily defeatable technology ever.

I mean, what is the perfect scenario? Let's say we use a constantly-firing GPS device embedded in the stock.

This asshole, knowing it's there, digs it out and leaves it at home as he goes to the school to shoot people.

If we try to make it fire off a warning if it's disturbed, we'll have a zillion false reports, and there'll still be a way to defeat it.

756 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:35:25am

re: #747 goddamnedfrank

make removing or burning out the tag a crime.

shrug?

757 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:36:15am

re: #753 Holidays are Family Fun Time

"ranting" about the NRA may get us to the point where rational gun-owners realize the NRA is making this into a 'people with guns' and 'people without guns' struggle, and that's very bad for gun owners.

758 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:36:28am

re: #751 A Man for all Seasons

You simply remove the Tag before leaving the store and no alarm go off.
I understand the frustration of making guns safer

I"ve actually been the person in the store that puts those RFID stickers on the product. They are pretty useless unless they are hidden inside tamper-proof packaging.

759 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:36:36am

re: #753 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Well, unless we deal with the NRA convincing a huge number of Americans that any gun control is a gun grab...
Well, nothing will get done.

760 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:36:46am

re: #756 stabby

make removing or burning out the tag a crime.

shrug?

Yeah. So this guy who just murdered 22 kids, he'd totally be deterred because, gosh, he could get arrested for burning out the tag.

Brilliant.

761 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:37:52am

And the reason I have this knee jerk reation is simple.
This has been going on for decades. Every time there is a massacre like this we say, "We must do something".
And nothing ever gets done.
I'm tired of it.

762 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:39:08am

re: #756 stabby

make removing or burning out the tag a crime.

shrug?

Owning certain firearms is already a crime. Seems not to have done much good. So why waste more resources on inventing laws that can't be realistically enforced?

Making laws without enforcement funds and personal and procedure is just a feel-good measure.

763 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:39:53am

One of my points was that if removing the tag is illegal, then police have a way to find evidence of intent to use a gun for a crime before the crime is committed.

Hell maybe police could carry radar devices that can see NORMAL guns. Feds have scary shit like that now. THEY could detect an unchipped gun just walking by.

They fucking have devices that can see through walls.

Heh the military has stuff that's classified that can see through he ground.

Remember the Israeli attack on osarik? They had missiles that could navigate through underground tunnels.

764 Ming  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:40:15am

re: #613 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

I wonder why the NRA doesn't also propose doing away with vehicle licensing, registration, pre-licensing driving tests, mandatory liability insurance, different types of requirements for different types of vehicles (e.g., 18-wheeler vs. motorcycle vs. passenger car), annual safety inspections...

And how about all the various ways you can fuck up and have your license removed? Driving drunk is a big one, but so is shirking your insurance responsibility. It's also frowned upon to drive around at 100MPH in a truck with no brakes and no turn signals.

We all live this way without feeling like we're living in a totalitarian hellhole.

Excellent point! I agree 100%.

765 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:41:07am

re: #759 Varek Raith

Well, unless we deal with the NRA convincing a huge number of Americans that any gun control is a gun grab...
Well, nothing will get done.

I agree, grass-roots gun nuts need to challenge the NRA. I think I worded that much better in an above post. Sorry, I'm getting tired and the dogs say I need my nap.

766 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:41:23am

re: #715 Obdicut

It's unworkable. Completely. RFID is easy to block. Any sort of radiation that is safe is going to be easy to block. You'd need a massive network of detectors, including on every window. It won't work.

Put the detectors into phones.

767 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:42:10am

re: #760 Obdicut

No, the point is that you give law enforcement laws that let them put people away for preparing for a crime. It's how they get terrorists.

768 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:42:47am

re: #756 stabby

make removing or burning out the tag a crime.

shrug?

And now we're back full-circle at the point where someone points out that there's literally nothing more illegal than shooting up an elementary school and killing a bunch of kids.

769 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:43:23am

re: #766 b_sharp

ever think about why congress mandated that all phones have gps devices.

The "for the user's safety" argument doesn't really sound likely does it?

770 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:43:29am

re: #765 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I agree, grass-roots gun nuts need to challenge the NRA. I think I worded that much better in an above post. Sorry, I'm getting tired and the dogs say I need my nap.

I apologize for being rather aggressive.

771 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:44:04am

very late to work

772 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:44:14am

re: #760 Obdicut

Yeah. So this guy who just murdered 22 kids, he'd totally be deterred because, gosh, he could get arrested for burning out the tag.

Brilliant.

Execute him!!11ty!!

Oh, wait, that didn't deter him either...

773 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:44:32am

pssst: newer speedier thread upstairs.

774 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:45:07am

re: #761 Varek Raith

And the reason I have this knee jerk reation is simple.
This has been going on for decades. Every time there is a massacre like this we say, "We must do something".
And nothing ever gets done.
I'm tired of it.

I'm curious as to how man people have been saved by defending themselves with a legal gun as opposed to how many have been killed/murdered by legal guns.

775 Skip Intro  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:46:10am

re: #689 stabby

I think shooting actual guns probably correlates to gun violence a lot more than playing call of duty.

I'm not so sure, since doing a mass killing is only a one time ride. Something makes a person want to become famous for doing this; I'm just curious what it might be.

776 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:46:27am

I think the practicality is unworkable. Unless we are going spend tons of resources on building-to-building searches (which would first be tied-up in federal court for years) we can't begin to control guns. The sheer number in this country is difficult to conceive.

Unlike cars, guns are not taxed yearly, there is no dedicated method of recording them. And trying to would only make for a longer day in court.

What I've never understood is why so many are manufactured (I know, they will sell). It's not like they wear -out and have to be replaced. But then again, I was raised from an archaic mindset.

While I totally understand the *need* for 10 pairs of black pumps, I don't understand the *need* for 10 shotguns.

777 jaunte  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:47:20am

re: #774 Gus

I'm curious as to how man people have been saved by defending themselves with a legal gun as opposed to how many have been killed/murdered by legal guns.

There you go with that empiricism stuff again.

778 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:48:12am

re: #774 Gus

I'm curious as to how man people have been saved by defending themselves with a legal gun as opposed to how many have been killed/murdered by legal guns.

That data is not collected, so we don't know. There is no check-box on police reports for self-defense of any kind, so the data is not tabulated by the FBI or CDC. There is, however a box for criminal use of firearms, so that data is recorded.

This bothers me a great deal. WE cannot make informed decisions and effective policy with out accurate data.

779 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:49:15am

I like my ideas the best..Some states require gun trigger locks on guns so stealing or kids playing with them is useless.
In Indiana we hired off-duty cops. Every school up to college should have a real policeman on the grounds. It only cost 300 bucks a week and parents would agree to pay the little extra to provide real security for their kids.
If you are a gunman pulling up with a cop car parked outside you'd probably be less likely to try to go inside. Most of shooters are cowards that prey on the weak and unprotected then kill themselves.

780 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:49:33am

re: #774 Gus

I'm curious as to how man people have been saved by defending themselves with a legal gun as opposed to how many have been killed/murdered by legal guns.

The numbers have proven, essentially, impossible to crunch because most successful defenses go unreported. A know a gentleman who averted an armed robbery by two people the other day by making it clear he was armed. No shots. No Police report. Becuase there was no crime.

781 Gus  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:50:10am

re: #777 jaunte

There you go with that empiricism stuff again.

It's sort of like that blood of tyrants cartoon which I seem to have mislocated.

782 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:50:22am

re: #763 stabby

One of my points was that if removing the tag is illegal, then police have a way to find evidence of intent to use a gun for a crime before the crime is committed.

But the person can just do it right before they commit the crime. The idea doesn't work.

Hell maybe police could carry radar devices that can see NORMAL guns. Feds have scary shit like that now. THEY could detect an unchipped gun just walking by.

Constantly broadcasting enough radiation to check everyone constantly would be extremely expensive, power-intensive, would cause shitloads of intereference, and be a violation of privacy rights in all sorts of ways.

They fucking have devices that can see through walls.

That's nice, bro.

Heh the military has stuff that's classified that can see through he ground.

Cool story.

Remember the Israeli attack on osarik? They had missiles that could navigate through underground tunnels.

Your plan is still unworkable and I have no idea why you're clinging to it. Is it really that hard to accept that defeating stuff like this is pretty easy and try to come up with an actually workable system?

783 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:51:22am

re: #779 A Man for all Seasons

yeah.

America has lost all her manufacturing jobs.

But eventually we'll all work as armed guards at a school or mall or on the bus.

At least that would work perfectly

784 danarchy  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:52:06am

re: #779 A Man for all Seasons

Most of shooters are cowards that prey on the weak and unprotected then kill themselves.

This makes me wonder why they all seem to wear body armor if they are going to off themselves as soon as the cops show up anyway.

785 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:52:26am

re: #782 Obdicut

Constantly broadcasting enough radiation to check everyone constantly would be extremely expensive, power-intensive, would cause shitloads of intereference, and be a violation of privacy rights in all sorts of ways.

who said you check everyone constantly?

786 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:52:26am

re: #767 stabby

No, the point is that you give law enforcement laws that let them put people away for preparing for a crime. It's how they get terrorists.

Yeah, that is tough to do legally. We are judged (on Earth anyway) by our actions, not intentions. No laws about thought crimes here.

I think there is a clear set of actions that identifies terrorists. Not so much someone who is going to commit a mass shooting for emotional or mental health reasons.

787 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:53:10am

re: #769 stabby

ever think about why congress mandated that all phones have gps devices.

The "for the user's safety" argument doesn't really sound likely does it?

And there are those who would say that the GPS in cell phones is not constitutional. I can't imagine the uproar if it were tried with firearms.

788 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:53:40am

re: #785 stabby

some of those things work by not "lots of radiation" but by "super short bursts of radiation"

789 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:53:48am

re: #770 Varek Raith

I apologize for being rather aggressive.

It's all good. I can empathize with the outrage.

790 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:54:04am

re: #783 stabby

But eventually we'll all work as armed guards at a school or mall or on the bus

What part of "off duty cops" didn't you get?

Here in Georgia many schools have hired retired cops/ military people that don't want to just sit and collect their pensions and do gardening all day

791 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:55:15am

re: #785 stabby

Constantly broadcasting enough radiation to check everyone constantly would be extremely expensive, power-intensive, would cause shitloads of intereference, and be a violation of privacy rights in all sorts of ways.

who said you check everyone constantly?

I'm sorry, dude, I can't follow your ever-shifting goalposts-on-a-greyhound logic. You want the police to just spot-check scanning people in random places? And you think this will achieve... what?

Why do you keep clinging to this idea?

792 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:56:34am

re: #791 Obdicut

You want the police to just spot-check scanning people in random places? And you think this will achieve... what?

Maybe he has stock in Reynolds Aluminum !!!
//

793 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:56:53am

re: #791 Obdicut

Solving engineering problems is a constant process of moving the goalposts.

That's how you solve problems in the real world. You adapt and adapt to your adaptations and iterate over it till you have a solution that is possible and comes closest to solving the problem workably

794 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:57:03am

re: #788 stabby

some of those things work by not "lots of radiation" but by "super short bursts of radiation"

So now you're claiming that you do have expertise in this area? Can you explain why you were relating RFID and GPS earlier, then?

And sure, they can work by 'short burst of radiation'. That doesn't mean that the radiation doesn't have to be strong. The farther the distance, the stronger it has to be, too. In addition, 'short bursts' means that there's plenty of times it's not detecting anything, and I still don't get what your spot-checks are supposed to achieve.

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Let me know if you are, because it's boring.

795 stabby  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:57:51am

re: #794 Obdicut

I wasn't talking about rfid

the short bursts was about looking through walls

796 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:58:18am

re: #779 A Man for all Seasons

I like my ideas the best..Some states require gun trigger locks on guns so stealing or kids playing with them is useless.
In Indiana we hired off-duty cops. Every school up to college should have a real policeman on the grounds. It only cost 300 bucks a week and parents would agree to pay the little extra to provide real security for their kids.
If you are a gunman pulling up with a cop car parked outside you'd probably be less likely to try to go inside. Most of shooters are cowards that prey on the weak and unprotected then kill themselves.

I'm so doubtful about trigger locks. It's just a parent's knowledge of how resourceful kids can be.

I'd rather they be educated about firearms (appropriate for the age group) and the mystery taken away from guns. Once again, the only program I found for my son was the NRA's Eddie Eagle program.

When he was older, he went to the range. Then started the Olympic Training/NRA program for .22 and ended-up on the rifle range at school. Now, the idea of shooting sound like "work" to him. No glory or testosterone power feelings at all. Guns are work to him, they have to be cleaned, handling and transporting procedures must be followed. Much easier to play a video game.

797 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:59:27am

re: #784 danarchy

This makes me wonder why they all seem to wear body armor if they are going to off themselves as soon as the cops show up anyway.

Because that's part of what makes them feel powerful. Armor, gun, Yeah!

No logic involved.

798 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 11:59:54am

re: #793 stabby

And likewise the problem of 'how do I defeat detection method X' evolves constantly as well.

The only place that detection systems work at all is through narrow chokepoints, like in airports. Even then, they fail most of the time-- the FBI, whenever it tests the TSA, succeeds.

You are now just waving your hands and saying we'll solve the problem because science is awesome. Science is awesome, but that doesn't mean that everything is feasible. It's not feasible to build an anti-ballistic missile system that could reliably work against multiple launches, or, probably, even single launches. It's not feasible to create a 'gun detector' that will be undefeatable and reliably show when someone is carrying a gun around for an illegal rather than legal purpose.

799 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:00:46pm

re: #795 stabby

That's cool. So, what's the relationship between looking through walls and using detection systems to reliably find guns that are going to be used for an illegal purpose?

800 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:01:16pm

re: #683 Holidays are Family Fun Time

So, instead of being snarky, simply say that. Give me a place to start my research for correct information.

Your knowledge seems to be up-to-date, where do you get your info. Share and cooperate if you are really interested in educating.

An hour later . . . . . .???

801 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:03:09pm

re: #800 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Oh, really? Somalia is a failed state with no real working government, so there's no real restriction on guns other than whatever local guy who has the most guns and other guys with guns says it is.

802 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:08:07pm

re: #801 Obdicut

Oh, really? Somalia is a failed state with no real working government, so there's no real restriction on guns other than whatever local guy who has the most guns and other guys with guns says it is.

Good point. Thanks. Of course, it seems obvious now, but as I've stated, my mind has not been concentrated on this subject recently, I've been focusing on Reproductive Rights issues.

I like to research. When I admit upfront my research may be wrong our out-of-date and then get a snarky response with no indicate of HOW my information is wrong or WHERE to find accurate information, I see that as an attempt to 1) me me look stupid and 2) make the responder feel superior. Neither of which does anything to SOLVE THE PROBLEM. Which, I assume is the goal.

I'm not afraid of looking stupid, what I can't stand is when I ask for help and am ignored.

803 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:09:06pm

re: #802 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I think the bafflement came because Somalia has become a watchword for an anarchic state.

804 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:11:00pm

re: #803 Obdicut

I think the bafflement came because Somalia has become a watchword for an anarchic state.

So, I'm out of touch on the subject. I admit it. I'm human, no shame in that.

I appreciate any help I can get.

So why ignore someone who obviously needs to be pointed in the right direction?

805 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:13:22pm

re: #804 Holidays are Family Fun Time

So, I'm out of touch on the subject. I admit it. I'm human, no shame in that.

I appreciate any help I can get.

So why ignore someone who obviously needs to be pointed in the right direction?

Perhaps the one giving the snarky response isn't positive of their knowledge of the subject either, and after getting into it with you didn't want that to be exposed

806 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:14:38pm

re: #804 Holidays are Family Fun Time

So, I'm out of touch on the subject. I admit it. I'm human, no shame in that.

I appreciate any help I can get.

So why ignore someone who obviously needs to be pointed in the right direction?

Wait, what? I thought you were alien.

All this time I thought I was friends with an ET. I was about to ask for a lift off this planet.

807 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:14:44pm

re: #804 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I can't speak for anyone else, but even I thought you were being sarcastic or making some strange, backhanded point, because I assume you knew that Somalia was a failed state. It's not a big deal, now that it's clarified.

808 sattv4u2  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:16:09pm

re: #806 b_sharp

I was about to ask for a lift off this planet.

Bend over

My leg and foot are registered propulsion devices!!
//

809 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:17:06pm

I feel like an alien sometimes.

810 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:18:23pm

re: #809 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I feel like an alien sometimes.

To feel alien is to be human.


DEEP

811 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:18:56pm

re: #810 Obdicut

To feel alien is to be human.

DEEP

THROAT?

812 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:21:22pm

re: #807 Obdicut

I can't speak for anyone else, but even I thought you were being sarcastic or making some strange, backhanded point, because I assume you knew that Somalia was a failed state. It's not a big deal, now that it's clarified.

Yes, I guess I could be guity of such things in the past . . . . .

I'm going to take my much needed nap.
Have fun upstairs.

813 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 2:02:06pm

re: #309 Dark_Falcon

SBG?

"Scary black gun"

814 Cap'n Magic  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:03:03pm

re: #178 JAFO

Thanks for the note-I kept wondering what the / meant in this social sphere.

815 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 3:03:51pm

re: #692 Varek Raith

I routinely glass planets.
GTA? Play it a lot.
Watch violent animes a lot.
Don't see me picking up a gun and killing people.

You'll just press a button and vaporize the planet.
/

816 ihateronpaul  Sat, Dec 15, 2012 9:59:47pm

This whole insanity reminds me of "Bowling for Columbine" by Michael Moore. America's insane lust for weapons is only seeming to get worse.


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A drug is not bad. A drug is a chemical compound. The problem comes in when people who take drugs treat them as a license to behave like an asshole.