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National Review Writer: Newtown Caused by Not Enough Manly Men

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Wingnuts • Views: 19,182

The leading intellectuals of the conservative movement are continuing their efforts to blame the Newtown massacre on absolutely everything except guns, and today at the National Review we have yet another amazingly ludicrous article. According to Charlotte Allen, this atrocity could have been avoided if only there were some manly men on the premises.

There was not a single adult male on the school premises when the shooting occurred. In this school of 450 students, a sizeable number of whom were undoubtedly 11- and 12-year-old boys (it was a K-6 school), all the personnel — the teachers, the principal, the assistant principal, the school psychologist, the “reading specialist” — were female. There didn’t even seem to be a male janitor to heave his bucket at Adam Lanza’s knees. Women and small children are sitting ducks for mass-murderers. The principal, Dawn Hochsprung, seemed to have performed bravely. According to reports, she activated the school’s public-address system and also lunged at Lanza, before he shot her to death. Some of the teachers managed to save all or some of their charges by rushing them into closets or bathrooms. But in general, a feminized setting is a setting in which helpless passivity is the norm. Male aggression can be a good thing, as in protecting the weak — but it has been forced out of the culture of elementary schools and the education schools that train their personnel. Think of what Sandy Hook might have been like if a couple of male teachers who had played high-school football, or even some of the huskier 12-year-old boys, had converged on Lanza.

The sick irony of this right wing fantasy is that the Bushmaster semi-automatic rifle used by Adam Lanza to slaughter all those children has been advertised for years as a masculinity-enhancing weapon that gives the shooter a magical “man card.”

And just to cap off this absurd argument, Ms Allen is not just crazy, she’s also factually wrong. There was, in fact, a male janitor at the school when the shootings happened. But instead of “heaving his bucket at Adam Lanza’s knees,” he was running through the school halls making sure classroom doors were locked and warning students to flee.

I guess Charlotte Allen would consider this a “feminized” response.

These people are simply not right in the head.

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216 comments

1 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:51:49pm

Yes, because real men charge into the guns, screaming "BANZAI!"

//

2 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:52:13pm

Since when do these people allow things like facts get in the way of their arguments?

3 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:53:04pm

Check the stats, women are not even manly enough to be mass murderes in the first place...no wonder they have no chance of defending against them...

4 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:53:27pm

re: #1 Targetpractice

Yes, because real men charge into the guns, screaming "BANZAI!"BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI!!!

//

5 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:53:51pm

The principal and school psychologist that were shot rushing the shooter weren't successful, and weren't heroic, because vagina down there bits.

6 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:55:05pm

re: #5 The Ghost of a Flea

The principal and school psychologist that were shot rushing the shooter weren't successful, and weren't heroic, because vagina down there bits.

Testicles combined with the love of Jesus combine to make a spiritual force field protecting men from all harm.

7 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:55:12pm

On the bright side, this article is an excellent representation of how sexism and gender stereotypes inherent in patriarchy also damage men.

8 A Mom Anon  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:55:23pm

I'm running out of things to say about these freaking geniuses. This false bravado shit of theirs is getting pretty fucking tiresome. It must be nice to get paid to be an armchair hero and not have to break a sweat.

9 Tigger2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:55:37pm

Looks like they're already working on the next election, I like the new Woman's outreach program the Republicans have started, I'm glad their Pendants and base are picking it up and running with it. //

10 S.D.  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:56:03pm

"The leading intellectuals of the conservative movement"?
Last few days, that's been quite a contradiction...

11 freetoken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:56:36pm

Remember, this is the same magazine that argued that Romney was superior to Obama because Romney sired 5 boys (only) and Obama sired 2 girls (only).

Is there a pattern here?

12 Coracle  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:56:50pm

If Mrs Lanza had had only daughters, would we be dealing with this shit now?

13 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:58:04pm

re: #10 S.D.

"The leading intellectuals of the conservative movement"?
Last few days, that's been quite a contradiction...

If they're considered the smart ones of their tribe, I'd hate to meet the stupid ones.

14 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:58:28pm

And the National Review are supposed to be the sane, intellectual voice of conservatism.

15 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 12:59:38pm

re: #13 Ghost of Tom Joad

If they're considered the smart ones of their tribe, I'd hate to meet the stupid ones.

16 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:00:55pm

There were some good responses in the piece.

I found Anthony Daniels' remarks to be particularly on point.

Mass killings seem to be symptomatic of some people’s willingness or desire to express their personal distress, frustration, or discomfort in a dramatically public way. This is not confined to America: For example, in 1994 a Moroccan pilot deliberately crashed his plane into the side of a mountain, killing 43 people as well as himself. He was distressed that his wife had left him.

The perpetrators of mass killings seem to be maladjusted people with a grievance against life, sometimes crystallized by a relatively minor incident like being fired from work or rejected by a woman in a nightclub. Quite often they have been justly accused of what they have in fact done. One killer shot people in two brokerage firms (having first killed his wife and two children) after he had lost a lot of money day-trading. Presumably he thought that the opportunity to make a lot of money was actually the right to make a lot of money, a right that had just been denied him. (The right to pursue happiness has long since been replaced by the right to be happy.) Hence he revenged himself upon those who denied him his right.

These terrible killings are different from the serial murders of old that were usually committed for financial gain or sexual gratification. They seem often to be the expression of a tormented egotism, a protest at the refusal of the world to take the perpetrator at his own inflated estimate of his importance. Needless to say, such people are incapable of genuine self-examination, which has been replaced almost entirely in the modern world by psychobabble and sociological pseudo-explanations of human behavior.

Weapons of any kind are obviously dangerous in the hands of such people. I leave it to constitutional scholars to decide whether the Founding Fathers ever imagined that the population would one day bear semi-automatics.

17 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:01:07pm

Charlie Pierce:

American conservatism has been rendered a parody of a burlesque of a puppet show. And Charlotte Allen should be shunned by decent people. Hell, people who think like this should be shunned by bacteria.

Read more: Charlotte Allen Newtown Shooting Comments - Today's McArdle Award Winner - Esquire [Link: www.esquire.com...]

18 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:01:30pm

And if I hear one more asshole claim "We can't outlaw guns because criminals will just get them anyways" I'm going to cockpunch someone.

19 Tigger2  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:04:23pm

re: #18 Kragar

And if I hear one more asshole claim "We can't outlaw guns because criminals will just get them anyways" I'm going to cockpunch someone.

They can't not come up with a good or sane defense for 30 - 90 round clips so they just spout any stupid thing that comes to mind or they have heard.

20 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:05:25pm

re: #18 Kragar

Actually, I think your thought is in the next part in the NRO's upcoming piece "how to defeat an armed gunman." First, we throw the janitor's bucket at their knees. Next, the children board their scooters for the mounted cavalry charge, after which a manly-man cockpunches the assailant.

We could have some fun with this, sadly.

21 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:06:03pm

Male teachers and "husky" 12 year-olds make the ideal human shields, as they are impervious to bullets. They stand defiantly, hands on hips, and the bullets just bounce off and drop dejectedly to the floor. Then the shooter realizes he's out of ammo, and the formerly football-playing male-type person reaches out, and bends the barrel of the gun into a pretzel shape (alternatively, plugs the barrel with his finger so it explodes, leaving the shooter with a comically blackened face and singed hair).

Then, officers O'Malley and Fitzpatrick throw him in the paddy wagon, because they always get their man. But as they turn to thank the brave hero for preventing another massacre, the hero is gone! In his place stands mild-mannered school newspaper reporter Kent Clark, who "heard all the commotion but didn't get here in time to see anything."

Ta-daaa.

22 ElCapitanAmerica  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:06:50pm

She recommends that kids throw themselves at the shooters, in her stupid article she fantasizes about a husky 12 year old mainly kamikaze warrior kid, missing the fact that this was a K-4th grade school.

So didn't Virginia Tech have any men attending classes?

23 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:07:05pm

If you limit the types of weapons available, then those people seeking to illegally purchase a firearm will have a harder time finding and purchasing those weapons.

Is it that fucking hard to comprehend?

24 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:07:30pm

re: #22 ElCapitanAmerica

She recommends that kids throw themselves at the shooters, in her stupid article she fantasizes about a husky 12 year old mainly kamikaze warrior kid, missing the fact that this was a K-4th grade school.

So didn't Virginia Tech have any men attending classes?

Yeah, they got shot IIRC.

25 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:07:32pm

re: #17 Ghost of Tom Joad

In fairness, the NRO author was just trying to outcrazy McMegan's 'charge the shooter' article.

26 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:07:33pm

Jeanne Azzam is not a manly enough man for you wingnuts? She saved her church from a shooter, and in gratitude they kicked her out when she revealed that she was a lesbian.

27 bubba zanetti  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:08:32pm

Right, since the worst school shootings in the US and Canada—Virginia Tech and the Ecole Polytechnique—were both at engineering schools, which as we all know don't have enough men in them.

28 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:09:07pm

re: #11 freetoken

Next we will be treated to thoughtful treatises on how this tragedy wouldn't have happened had Romney won. /

29 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:09:40pm

re: #16 researchok

There were some good responses in the piece.

I found Anthony Daniels' remarks to be particularly on point.

Excerpts:

(The right to pursue happiness has long since been replaced by the right to be happy.) Hence he revenged himself upon those who denied him his right.

This is just a subroutine of "modern society is all about people being takers who think they deserve things."

It's horseshit.

Needless to say, such people are incapable of genuine self-examination, which has been replaced almost entirely in the modern world by psychobabble and sociological pseudo-explanations of human behavior.

Wash, rinse, repeat. Blahblahblah sick culture psychologists are part of the problem.

Also horseshit...and not even original.

It's just a hunting decoy for paleoconservative babble about values and traditional morality. You can search and find these same phrases used elsewhere, and then look at the proposed remedies: rolling back gender equality and sexual mores, putting God back in schools, banishing "moral relativism" by allowing prayer in schools and re-writing textbooks to be American-exceptionalism brochures., and generally muddying the interaction between church and state.

30 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:10:47pm

NRO = 50 ways to be Pat Buchanan.

31 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:11:33pm
Needless to say, such people are incapable of genuine self-examination, which has been replaced almost entirely in the modern world by psychobabble and sociological pseudo-explanations of human behavior.

They say that without any apparent self-examination.

32 ElCapitanAmerica  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:12:15pm

In the meantime, this other idiot blames the shootings on ... Jon Stewart!!!!

[Link: www.mediaite.com...]

33 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:13:45pm
Needless to say, such people are incapable of genuine self-examination, which has been replaced almost entirely in the modern world by psychobabble and sociological pseudo-explanations of human behavior.

Yes, things were much better during Feudalism and when the Inquisition controlled people's minds. /

34 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:13:49pm

re: #22 ElCapitanAmerica

The Virginia Tech massacre victims:

Victims
1. Ryan Clark (22) Martinez, Georgia
—senior in Psych/Biology/English
2. Emily Hilscher (19) Woodville, Virginia
—freshman in Animal Sciences
3. Minal Panchal (26) Mumbai, India
—masters student in Architecture
4. G. V. Loganathan (53) Erode, Tamil Nadu, India
—professor of Engineering
5. Jarrett Lane (22) Narrows, Virginia
—senior in Civil Engineering
6. Brian Bluhm (25) Louisville, Kentucky
—masters student in Civil Engineering
7. Matthew Gwaltney (24) Chesterfield County, Virginia
—masters student in Environmental Engineering
8. Jeremy Herbstritt (27) Bellefonte, Pennsylvania
—masters student in Civil Engineering
9. Partahi Lumbantoruan (34) Medan, Indonesia
—PhD student in Civil Engineering
10. Daniel O'Neil (22) Lincoln, Rhode Island
—masters student in Environmental Engineering
11. Juan Ortiz (26) Bayamón, Puerto Rico[26]
—masters student in Civil Engineering
12. Julia Pryde (23) Middletown, New Jersey
—masters student in Biological Systems Engineering
13. Waleed Shaalan (32) Zagazig, Egypt
—PhD student in Civil Engineering
14. Jamie Bishop (35) Pine Mountain, Georgia
—German instructor
15. Lauren McCain (20) Hampton, Virginia
—freshman in International Studies
16. Michael Pohle Jr. (23) Flemington, New Jersey
—senior in Biological Sciences
17. Maxine Turner (22) Vienna, Virginia
—senior in Chemical Engineering
18. Nicole White (20) Smithfield, Virginia
—junior in International Studies
19. Liviu Librescu (76) Ploieşti, Romania
—professor of Engineering
20. Jocelyne Couture-Nowak (49) Yarmouth, Nova Scotia
—professor of French
21. Ross Alameddine (20) Saugus, Massachusetts
—sophomore in English/Business
22. Austin Cloyd (18) Champaign, Illinois
—freshman in Int'l Studies/French
23. Daniel Perez Cueva (21) Woodbridge, Virginia
—junior in International Studies
24. Caitlin Hammaren (19) Westtown, New York
—sophomore in Int'l Studies/French
25. Rachael Hill (18) Richmond, Virginia
—freshman in Biological Sciences
26. Matthew La Porte (20) Dumont, New Jersey
—sophomore in Political Science
27. Henry Lee (20) Roanoke, Virginia/Vietnam
—freshman in Computer Engineering
28. Erin Peterson (18) Centreville, Virginia
—freshman in International Studies
29. Mary Karen Read (19) Annandale, Virginia
—freshman in Interdisciplinary Studies
30. Reema Samaha (18) Centreville, Virginia
—freshman in Urban Planning
31. Leslie Sherman (20) Springfield, Virginia
—junior in History/Int'l Studies
32. Kevin Granata (45) Toledo, Ohio
—professor of Engineering

Not a man among them. /

35 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:13:58pm

re: #29 The Ghost of a Flea

It's just a hunting decoy for paleoconservative babble about values and traditional morality. You can search and find these same phrases used, and then looked at the proposed remedies: rolling back gender equality and sexual mores, putting God back in schools, banishing "moral relativism" by allowing prayer in schools and re-writing textbooks to be American-exceptionalism brochures., and generally muddying the interaction between church and state.

I didn't see any of that in the piece.

And he is clearly advocating for more gun control.

36 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:14:04pm
Think of what Sandy Hook might have been like if a couple of male teachers who had played high-school football, or even some of the huskier 12-year-old boys, had converged on Lanza.

Yep. And if you douse yourself in holy water before you charge a shooter, you're bulletproof. I know this because Joseph said so.

37 freetoken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:15:15pm

re: #30 wrenchwench

Speaking of PaleoPat, his latest article is that the Newtown massacre happened because of N.E.G. (Not Enough God.)

38 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:16:04pm

re: #16 researchok

There were some good responses in the piece.

I found Anthony Daniels' remarks to be particularly on point.

Funny this:

Needless to say, such people are incapable of genuine self-examination, which has been replaced almost entirely in the modern world by psychobabble and sociological pseudo-explanations of human behavior.

Daniels is doing exactly what he decries.

Ironic hypocrite...

39 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:16:21pm

re: #37 freetoken

Speaking of PaleoPat, his latest article is that the Newtown massacre happened because of N.E.G. (Not Enough God.)

N.E. G.G.G.

Not enough God, Guts and Guns

40 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:16:38pm

Sales soar for kid-themed body armor backpacks

This is not a sick joke. It is a sick money-making endeavor, and it appears to be raking in the cash.

The Newtown, Conn., mass shooting of 20 schoolchildren seems to have had an impact in one industry: body armor backpacks. Mother Jones reports that sales of the backpacks designed to protect kids during a school shooting, have “gone through the roof.”
Derek Williams, president of Amendment II, the Utah-based company that makes the packs along with lightweight body armor for military and police use, told the magazine, "I can't go into exact sales numbers, but basically we tripled our sales volume of backpacks that we typically do in a month—in one week."

A few points:
Many schools no longer allow backpacks.
If they do, they require the kids to put them in lockers and leave them there.
This kind of armor, such as it is, will not stop a 5.56 round.

41 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:16:42pm

So, violence is the only thing that matters, according to this NRO piece. No other aspects of civilization or social organization need ever be considered.

Rarely is the movement conservative worldview made so explicit.

WFB had his moments of extreme stupidity (e.g., "stop history"), but he was able to keep up appearances better than the current crowd of nut cases.

42 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:17:28pm

re: #38 TedStriker

Why are his remarks psychobable?

It isn't as if he is unqualified to make his observations.

43 bubba zanetti  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:17:46pm

re: #39 Sol Berdinowitz

N.E. G.G.G.

Not enough God, Guts Gonads and Guns

FTFY

44 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:20:02pm

Since people are going to commit crimes with guns, we should make no laws making certain types illegal

Since people are going to use drugs, we should make no laws making certain types illegal

Since some people are going to have abortions, we should make no laws making them illegal

Since some people are going to molest kids, we should make no laws making it illegal.

//////

45 engineer cat  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:20:23pm

Conservatives Withdraw To Form Manly Culture, Deputize Manly Armed Guards To Pose Threateningly In Every Classroom And Transportation Hub

women freed to take care of everything else

46 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:20:34pm

Or maybe we should look to Texas State University, which had a mass murder event occur (Charles Whitman). Here's what they recommend in an active shooter situation:

If an active shooter is outside your building:
Go to a room that can be locked. Lock the doors and windows, and turn off the lights.
Get everyone to lie on the floor and out of the line of fire.
Call 911 and inform the operator of the situation. Give your name, location and any other details that can be provided about the shooter(s), if possible.
Stay at your location until the police or a known university official gives the “all clear.”
If an active shooter is in your building:
Determine if the room you are in can be locked. If so, follow instructions above.
If your room can't be locked, move to a room that can, or exit the building - ONLY IF IT IS SAFE TO DO SO.
If an active shooter enters your office or classroom:
If possible, call 911 and alert the police to the shooter's location; if you can't speak, leave the line open so the dispatcher can listen and try to pinpoint your location.
If you can't escape, attempting to overpower the shooter(s) by force is a LAST RESORT.
If the shooter(s) leaves the area, proceed immediately to a safer place, if possible. Do not touch anything that was in the vicinity of the shooter(s).
If you decide to flee, make sure you have an escape route/plan in mind. Do not carry anything; move quickly and quietly, keep your hands visible, and follow any instructions given by police officers.
Do not attempt to remove injured people; tell the authorities of their location as soon as possible.
Do not leave campus until advised to do so from the police.

That's in Texas. Attempting to overpower the shooter is the last resort. This is where you're dealing with college kids who might have a sporting chance at overpowering an assailant.

I can recall a hostage situation in SUNY Albany about 20 years ago. The shooter had a rifle, and a couple of students attempted to overpower the gunman. One of the students who rushed to overpower the assailant ended up getting shot and seriously injured in the process.

The gunman in that instance had mental health issues and while the jury and appeals upheld guilty verdicts on the kidnapping and aggravated assault, he later committed suicide in prison after shuttling back and forth between mental health facilities and prison.

47 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:20:37pm

re: #40 Shiplord Kirel

Another definition of "vulture capitalism".

48 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:22:16pm

re: #40 Shiplord Kirel

Sales soar for kid-themed body armor backpacks

This is not a sick joke. It is a sick money-making endeavor, and it appears to be raking in the cash.

A few points:
Many schools no longer allow backpacks.
If they do, they require the kids to put them in lockers and leave them there.
This kind of armor, such as it is, will not stop a 5.56 round.

Reminded of the guy in World War Z who capitalized on the initial confusion over the zombie virus as being a form of rabies and selling a new rabies vaccine as a shield against zombie bites. Made an absolute fortune until folks realized he'd played them for suckers.

People, in times of shock, try to bury themselves in the illusion of security, regardless of how little protection it provides. Hence all the cries for teachers to carry guns, because it provides the illusion of protection from armed gunmen.

49 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:22:43pm

re: #35 researchok

I didn't see any of that in the piece.

Dude, my point is that Daniel's language is not his own, and that his phrases and logic come directly from paleoconservative cultural critique. The entire gambit of "individual unhealthy egotism comes from a sick society that relies upon psychology" is not unique to him.

And it remains horseshit psychobabble.

50 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:22:51pm

re: #46 lawhawk

[pedantic]
The shooting to which you refer was at the University of Texas in Austin, not Texas State University.
[/pedantic]

51 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:22:52pm

re: #43 bubba zanetti

FTFY

Grits, you forgot the grits. I actually rather like grits, having acquired a taste for them while I was in the Army, which inevitably meant time in the southeast. They are hard to find in this god-forsaken wilderness though. The locals have recently started importing Moon Pies, so there might be some hope after all.

52 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:23:23pm

re: #35 researchok

I didn't see any of that in the piece.

And he is clearly advocating for more gun control.

I think this from the Daniels piece clearly qualifies as RW nut job talking points:

...Presumably he thought that the opportunity to make a lot of money was actually the right to make a lot of money, a right that had just been denied him. (The right to pursue happiness has long since been replaced by the right to be happy.) Hence he revenged himself upon those who denied him his right.

RW holy babble, Book of Makers and Takers, chapter 1, verse 3.

53 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:24:39pm

re: #46 lawhawk

Slight correction: Charles Whitman climbed the clock tower at the University of Texas campus here in Austin. Texas State University is in San Marcos, about 30 miles away.

UT's policies, however, are fairly similar: [Link: www.utexas.edu...]

54 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:24:52pm

re: #49 The Ghost of a Flea

Daniels language isn't his own?

Whose is it?

55 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:24:53pm
56 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:26:03pm

re: #55 Charles Johnson

By the way, Bushmaster has taken down their "Man Card" page.

Another sign that Obama's anti-gun policies are ruining our nation's precious bodily manhood...

/

57 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:26:12pm

Tea Party Nation: Train Teachers in SWAT Teams to Fight Hamas

In his initial response to the shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, Tea Party Nation president Judson Phillips emailed members an article about the massacre which sharply criticized teachers and urged government to cripple teachers’ unions and place guards like George Zimmerman at every school. Today, Phillips emailed out a piece arguing that it should “be required that all teachers and other staff be armed and in trained in SWAT” because Americans should worry about “the bloodbath you may well see if Iranian and Hamas agents go en masse into the schools of this nation.”

The TPN article also attacked teachers as “abject pacifist cowards” and liberals for allegedly “dancing gleefully in the blood of victims” in order to help the government “enslave” Americans through forcible disarmament.

I imagine the idea came to Philips as he masturbated to Red Dawn.

58 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:27:38pm

re: #54 researchok

Daniels language isn't his own?

Whose is it?

"The right to pursue happiness has long since been replaced by the right to be happy." (from the Daniels article)

This cannot be original to Daniels. This is a very old and moldy RW talking point.

59 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:27:58pm

re: #49 The Ghost of a Flea

And why is "individual unhealthy egotism comes from a sick society that relies upon psychology" horseshit?

That is exactly what we have been taking about here- that even people who suffer from one sort of mental illness or another can be held responsible for their actions- that mental illness does not preclude responsibility or accountability.

60 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:27:58pm

re: #57 Kragar

Tea Party Nation: Train Teachers in SWAT Teams to Fight Hamas

Allowing teachers to unionize? Jack-booted socialism.

Allowing teachers to do their jobs and teach real information like math, science and history? Librul indoctrination by radical leftists.

Arming teachers and putting them through SWAT training? AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

61 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:28:01pm

re: #57 Kragar

I thought they were just good Americans concerned with out-of-control government spending????////

62 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:28:01pm

re: #57 Kragar

Tea Party Nation: Train Teachers in SWAT Teams to Fight Hamas

I imagine the idea came to Philips as he masturbated to Red Dawn.

...

Anybody needs me, I'll be drilling a hole into my head and pouring bleach in.

63 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:28:24pm

re: #50 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

You're right.

The Austin campus has an active shooter guideline too. The pdf notes all the colleges/universities that have seen mass casualty incidents. Overpowering the assailant is the option of last resort there as well.

Also of note - police will treat everyone as a suspect and wont treat the injured until the area is secured. So, if you're going to introduce even more people with guns to a shooting situation, that means even more people will have to be processed by law enforcement and ruled out as assailants before they can secure the area. That too will delay emergency medical response and could add to the casualty count.

64 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:28:39pm

re: #58 EPR-radar

Possibly- but is the idea incorrect and if so, why?

65 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:29:05pm

re: #38 TedStriker

Anyone pretending that all shooters of this type share one mindset is just spouting off.

66 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:30:05pm

re: #62 Targetpractice

...

Anybody needs me, I'll be drilling a hole into my head and pouring bleach in.

Image: trepan.jpg

67 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:30:35pm

re: #63 lawhawk

You're right.

The Austin campus has an active shooter guideline too. The pdf notes all the colleges/universities that have seen mass casualty incidents. Overpowering the assailant is the option of last resort there as well.

Also of note - police will treat everyone as a suspect and wont treat the injured until the area is secured. So, if you're going to introduce even more people with guns to a shooting situation, that means even more people will have to be processed by law enforcement and ruled out as assailants before they can secure the area. That too will delay emergency medical response and could add to the casualty count.

Can't imagine why real policies of real institutions that have had or may face a mass shooting incident differ so markedly from the masturbatory fantasies of RW nutjob pundits.

Reality strikes again.

68 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:30:44pm

re: #64 researchok

Possibly- but is the idea incorrect and if so, why?

Yes. Because assuming all these shooters' motives are the same, except in the most broad and useless terms, is rather obviously stupid.

It's like the culture of life/culture of death bullshit.

69 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:30:55pm

re: #57 Kragar

Tea Party Nation: Train Teachers in SWAT Teams to Fight Hamas

I imagine the idea came to Philips as he masturbated to Red Dawn.

Brilliant.

70 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:31:19pm

re: #55 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

That barn door has a big glass window pane in it.

71 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:31:44pm

re: #69 Gus

Brilliant.

"WOLVER--uh-uh-uh-EEEEENS!

72 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:31:59pm
73 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:32:49pm

re: #65 Obdicut

In the same way anyone who brushes away the widely accepted ideas of shame and guilt cultures as being 'shallow'?

Is accepting that also advocating 'one single mindset'?

I don't believe that is the case.

74 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:33:18pm

re: #68 Obdicut

Clearly, you do not understand what Daniels is saying.

75 Four More Tears  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:34:42pm

You know, I'm starting to suspect that a lot of people have taken Hollywood style action way too seriously. I don't blame the movies, mind you, I blame small minds.

76 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:35:12pm

re: #73 researchok

In the same way anyone who brushes away the widely accepted ideas of shame and guilt cultures as being 'shallow'?

Yeah, that idea is a really shallow and stupid one. A ll those sorts of "There are two kinds of..." theories are simplistic attempts to grasp incredibly complicated problems.

Is accepting that also advocating 'one single mindset'?

I don't believe that is the case

It's really easy to demonstrate shame working in 'guilty' societies and guilt working in 'shame' societies. It's really obvious bullshit.

77 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:35:31pm

re: #75 Four More Tears

You know, I'm starting to suspect that a lot of people have taken Hollywood style action way too seriously. I don't blame the movies, mind you, I blame small minds.

Wait, so you mean the Jason Bourne movies weren't real?

//

78 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:36:02pm

re: #72 Gus

Image: samson_trepan_set_2.JPG

Needs more violet rays.

79 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:36:19pm

re: #59 researchok

And why is "individual unhealthy egotism comes from a sick society that relies upon psychology" horseshit?

That is exactly what we have been taking about here- that even people who suffer from one sort of mental illness or another can be held responsible for their actions- that mental illness does not preclude responsibility or accountability.

It's horseshit because rather than positing a question, he's insinuating a bunch of assumptions and treating then as reasonable.

What's "genuine self-examination" and why is it set in contrast to "modern psychobabble"?

Is it a foregone conclusion that society has taught people they have "the right to be happy" and that that entitlement somehow makes some people snap?

He's echoing paleo-conservatives...Pat Buchanan, for one, who use the exact same "people think they're entiteled to happiness, that why modern society is screwed" logic.

80 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:36:23pm

re: #68 Obdicut


Shame and guilt culture societies only serve to provide a context to behaviors. They are not indicators of the behaviors itself.

There is a reason the idea of shame and guilt cultures are so widely accepted- including by a vast population academics in the shame culture societies.

81 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:36:30pm

re: #40 Shiplord Kirel

Sales soar for kid-themed body armor backpacks

This is not a sick joke. It is a sick money-making endeavor, and it appears to be raking in the cash.

A few points:
Many schools no longer allow backpacks.
If they do, they require the kids to put them in lockers and leave them there.
This kind of armor, such as it is, will not stop a 5.56 round.

What.The.Fuck?!?

The fact that a company sees incidents such as Newtown as a business opportunity speaks volumes.

We, as a country, have serious problems with guns...more specifically, "assault" rifles and handguns.

Regulate the fuck out of them.

82 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:37:04pm

re: #75 Four More Tears

You know, I'm starting to suspect that a lot of people have taken Hollywood style action way too seriously. I don't blame the movies, mind you, I blame small minds.

It's funny, they'll blame Hollywood and video games for the shootings, but then they'll turn right around and use ideas from the same movies and games as solutions to the problem. The cognitive dissonance is galactically astounding.

83 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:37:08pm

re: #76 Obdicut

Yes, all those credible academics- what do they know?
/

84 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:37:09pm

re: #64 researchok

Possibly- but is the idea incorrect and if so, why?

Perhaps its mirror image will clarify my point. Consider the communist talking point "property is theft". Is this idea incorrect, and if so, why? Answering is rather pointless, isn't it?

More directly, the RW has been imputing the desire for a "right to happiness" to the opposition and then flogging that straw man mercilessly for longer than I've been alive.

If you think there is something worth considering in Daniel's drivel, try using your own words to express the relevant ideas.

85 Mattand  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:37:19pm

Ya know, if the National Review is one the leading intellectual conservative voices, and this their response to Sandy Hook, the NRA presser tomorrow is going to be some napalm-grade stupid.

I have a fantasy that they're going to announce Wayne LaPierre has been forced out, and some reality-based people are going to change the NRA's direction.

Then the rubbing alcohol martini I just chugged wears off.

86 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:38:09pm

re: #78 Kragar

Needs more violet rays.

Apparently it didn't catch on.

//

87 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:38:18pm

re: #78 Kragar

Where's the Patterson trocar? /

88 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:38:55pm

re: #81 TedStriker

Doesn't surprise me. Everything else has become for-profit. Why not mass-murder?

89 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:39:05pm

re: #74 researchok

Clearly, you do not understand what Daniels is saying.

I do. He makes a bunch of presumptions, asserts that there's a common thread here-- the absolutely stupidly, uselessly vague "grievance against life', and uses it to shoehorn in a bunch of right-wing bullshit.

90 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:40:53pm

re: #89 Obdicut

re: #74 researchok

I do. He makes a bunch of presumptions, asserts that there's a common thread here-- the absolutely stupidly, uselessly vague "grievance against life', and using it to shoehorn in a bunch of right-wing bullshit.

Precisely. It is RW mad libs. Take a current event, and shoe-horn RW talking points into anything that looks like a blank space around the reported facts.

91 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:41:07pm

re: #80 researchok

There is a reason the idea of shame and guilt cultures are so widely accepted- including by a vast population academics in the shame culture societies.

They're not, though. They're accepted within a little echo chamber of ideological allies.

92 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:41:16pm

re: #81 TedStriker

What.The.Fuck?!?

The fact that a company sees incidents such as Newtown as a business opportunity speaks volumes.

We, as a country, have serious problems with guns...more specifically, "assault" rifles and handguns.

Regulate the fuck out of them.

Freeper responses to this story range from the deranged and scary:

My child would never be shot in the back

to the wholly rational:

Bullet proof kiddy back packs is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of.

93 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:41:52pm

re: #73 researchok

In the same way anyone who brushes away the widely accepted ideas of shame and guilt cultures as being 'shallow'?

Is accepting that also advocating 'one single mindset'?

I don't believe that is the case.

Widely accepted by who?

That's anthropology from, like, seventy years ago. It's been discarded by the field for being too simplistic because most societies using interlashings of guilt and shame, often with internal variance depending on social proximity.

The old school "this is a shame society, this is a guilt society" thing is due a great of criticism since it was strongly bound up in Westerner academics contrasting "more civilized" Europe with "Oriental despotic" Asia.

94 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:42:01pm
95 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:42:03pm

re: #89 Obdicut


No, you do not understand what he is trying to say. Your earlier and subsequent remarks make that clear.

In fact, you are the one making assumptions.

96 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:42:12pm

Roy Moore: Evolution and Gay Marriage Incompatible with the Constitution

Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice-elect Roy Moore appeared on City On A Hill Radio to lash out at marriage equality and the theory of evolution, warning that they undermine the Constitution. Moore, who has argued that same-sex marriage leads to divine punishment and will “destroy this country,” maintained that the Founding Fathers “would be up in arms” over President Obama’s endorsement of marriage equality as it will “destroy the very foundation” of America.

Moore also denied the theory of evolution and said it was warping people’s understanding of the Constitution by covering up its Biblical precepts. “Evolution has so distorted our way of thinking,” Moore said, “we know we were created but they say we evolved from whatever, something out of the ocean, you’ve got to understand that evolution affects your mental processes.” He explained that evolution makes people think that they are “smarter” than their predecessors while the Constitution shows that “human nature doesn’t change.”

I find it infinitely more likely back water mouthbreathers who believe in ridiculous fantasies are more likely to destroy America.

97 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:42:15pm

You know, until you're faced in a life and death situation like the people in Newtown were, shut the fuck up please about "manliness." Most of us will thankfully never be in a situation like those poor people were. And for NRO to dumb this down to gender shows what a pathetic publication they are.

98 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:43:36pm

re: #91 Obdicut

Is that a fact.

Perhaps you can point me to the mainstream academics who discredit the idea.

I'd be most grateful.

99 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:44:04pm

re: #83 researchok

Yes, all those credible academics- what do they know?
/

Name 'em.

100 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:44:21pm

re: #96 Kragar

Roy Moore: Evolution and Gay Marriage Incompatible with the Constitution

I find it infinitely more likely back water mouthbreathers who believe in ridiculous fantasies are more likely to destroy America.

The Constitution shows human nature never changes? Yeah that explains the 13th amendment, 14th, and others. NOT. Seriously, how is this guy a judge of any kind let alone a former state supreme court justice. He's obviously not very smart or versed in the Constitution.

101 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:44:42pm

The fact David Barton is taken seriously and people like Roy Moore get elected into office prove that we aren't smarter than our predecessors.

102 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:45:12pm

re: #95 researchok

No, you do not understand what he is trying to say. Your earlier and subsequent remarks make that clear.

In fact, you are the one making assumptions.

That's nice, dude.

A) The guilt/shame thing is something i was taught in school as an example of old, discredited theory, of what happens when you assume your own culture is better.

B) Daniels makes assumptions. You can tell by the way he even writes that he's doing so-- by saying 'presumably', and by asserting all the killers have these common factors.

If he's not asserting they all have common factors, what the fuck is he saying, then?

103 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:45:14pm

re: #93 The Ghost of a Flea

I'd be most grateful for more recent works that have served to discredit the ideas.

104 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:45:37pm
105 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:45:40pm

re: #101 Kragar

The fact David Barton is taken seriously and people like Roy Moore get elected into office prove that we aren't smarter than our predecessors.

Sometimes, I think we've gotten worse when I read some of the stuff our legislators, judges, and people like Barton who while not lawmakers have a huge impact on law.

106 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:45:50pm

re: #100 HappyWarrior

The Constitution shows human nature never changes? Yeah that explains the 13th amendment, 14th, and others. NOT. Seriously, how is this guy a judge of any kind let alone a former state supreme court justice. He's obviously not very smart or versed in the Constitution.

Forget it Jake, its Alabama.

107 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:46:07pm

re: #96 Kragar

At least he's confined to Alabama. No offense to Alabamians.

108 HappyWarrior  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:46:16pm

re: #106 Kragar

Forget it Jake, its Alabama.

Indeed.

109 freetoken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:46:20pm

re: #101 Kragar

There are indications that the IQ of Homo sapiens have been trending downwards for some millennia.

110 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:46:27pm

re: #100 HappyWarrior

It's Alabama...

111 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:46:29pm

Barbara Moore: Judge Moore I want to ask you, as you read the United States Constitution you can see that biblical concepts and precepts are within that Constitution, everything from separation of powers because of the sinful nature of man, and I would think that any Bible believing Christian would feel that when they look at our United States Constitution, wouldn’t you say?

Roy Moore: I think they don’t and I think there’s a reason they don’t and I think the reason like you see it maybe because you’ve studied a little bit but I think it’s not evident to those who have lost the knowledge of God. What I mean to say by that is you know we started by teaching history at the beginning of the program and it’s like going to football games and seeing who wins and who loses and going to football games and forgetting the rules. If you know the rules it makes the game more interesting because you know there is some way they get to the end of the game and win or lose and you got to go by the rules. We’re not going by the rules because we don’t think the rules matter anymore.

Evolution has so distorted our way of thinking. It’s not just about where we came from. Of course, we know we were created but they say we evolved from whatever, something out of the ocean, you’ve got to understand that evolution affects your mental processes. When you think you have evolved then you think you’re better than those who have gone before you. If you’re better than those who have gone before you then you won’t make the same mistakes, you won’t think the same way, you know better, you’re smarter. The point is, human nature doesn’t change and human nature is what the Constitution sought to restrain.

112 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:47:07pm

re: #99 Obdicut

LOLOL

Do a search. There is plenty of literature on the subject- easy to find.

But you made the claim the ideas were horseshit so please, name your sources.

113 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:47:44pm

re: #109 freetoken

There are indications that the IQ of Homo sapiens have been trending downwards for some millennia.

Again, "Idiocracy" is a documentary made by somebody who has traveled into the future.

114 freetoken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:49:35pm

BTW, on another dimension in the universe of Derp, I see that the "War on Christmas" is now being explained as a "War on Whites" in some of the backwaters of the reactionary right.

The entire reactionary right/paleo-conservative segment of our society is melting down into one gooey mess of derp.

115 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:50:20pm

re: #103 researchok

I'd be most grateful for more recent works that have3 served to discredit the ideas.

Edward Said's Orientalism

Any critique of Ruth Benedict's Chrysanthemum and the Sword.

116 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:50:51pm
as you read the United States Constitution you can see that biblical concepts and precepts are within that Constitution, everything from separation of powers because of the sinful nature of man,

Sounds like she got lost after claiming the separation of powers was a biblical concept/precept.

117 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:51:31pm

re: #109 freetoken

There are indications that the IQ of Homo sapiens have been trending downwards for some millennia.

Human intelligence slowly declining, says leading geneticist

Humans are slowly losing their cognitive capabilities as adverse genetic mutations fail to be weeded out by evolutionary pressures, according to a bold hypothesis put forward by Dr. Gerald Crabtree of Stanford University.

“I would wager that if an average citizen from Athens of 1000 BC were to appear suddenly among us, he or she would be among the brightest and most intellectually alive of our colleagues and companions, with a good memory, a broad range of ideas, and a clear-sighted view of important issues. Furthermore, I would guess that he or she would be among the most emotionally stable of our friends and colleagues,” the leading geneticist began his article in the scientific journal Trends in Genetics, adding the same could be said of the “inhabitants of Africa, Asia, India, or the Americas.”

Crabtree explained that human intelligence and emotions relied on thousands of genes, which acted together as links in a chain rather than individual components. A mutation to any of one of these genes can produce intellectual or emotional disability — and research has found that most of these genes are particularly susceptible to mutations.

Under the harsh circumstances that ancient humans endured, even a slight reduction in cognitive abilities could doom an individual. Those with lower cognitive abilities were more likely to die before reproducing, leaving only those with more refined cognitive abilities to pass on their genes.

118 Bulworth  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:51:38pm
I see that the "War on Christmas" is now being explained as a "War on Whites" in some of the backwaters of the reactionary right.

Ah, yes, it was always thus. /

119 EPR-radar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:51:55pm

re: #114 freetoken

BTW, on another dimension in the universe of Derp, I see that the "War on Christmas" is now being explained as a "War on Whites" in some of the backwaters of the reactionary right.

The entire reactionary right/paleo-conservative segment of our society is melting down into one gooey mess of derp.

The re-election of Barack Obama was prophesied to be one of the signs of the looming derpmageddon.

120 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:52:08pm

re: #114 freetoken

BTW, on another dimension in the universe of Derp, I see that the "War on Christmas" is now being explained as a "War on Whites" in some of the backwaters of the reactionary right.

The entire reactionary right/paleo-conservative segment of our society is melting down into one gooey mess of derp.

WND: Jews Leading the War on Christmas

121 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:52:26pm

re: #112 researchok

LOLOL

Do a search. There is plenty of literature on the subject- easy to find.

But you made the claim the ideas were horseshit so please, name your sources.

And how old is it, it is peer reviewed, and is the idea being deployed in the course of, say, exercising a political or cultural agenda?

Because "shame society" versus "guilt society" is still popular with bigots who want to denigrate a culture as less morally developed and missionaries who want to feel good about bringing Jesus to blighted natives.

122 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:53:09pm

re: #104 Shiplord Kirel

Btw, the little girl in this ad looks like my grand-daughter. I am really upset over this. How crazy are people anyway? Worse than even I thought, apparently, and that is saying a hell of a lot.

123 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:53:52pm

re: #27 bubba zanetti

Right, since the worst school shootings in the US and Canada—Virginia Tech and the Ecole Polytechnique—were both at engineering schools, which as we all know don't have enough men in them.

Which was why Marc Lepine targeted the women there.

You're women, you're going to be engineers. You're all a bunch of feminists. I hate feminists.

In his twisted mind women shouldn't have been anywhere save the kitchen and the grave. The sick fuck.

124 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:53:57pm

re: #115 The Ghost of a Flea

EDWARD SAID?

You're kidding, right?

He has been controversial and many consider his to be discredited.

Can you find another? Just one.

I'll look up Said's critics.

125 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:54:05pm

re: #111 Gus

What I mean to say by that is you know we started by teaching history at the beginning of the program and it’s like going to football games and seeing who wins and who loses and going to football games and forgetting the rules. If you know the rules it makes the game more interesting because you know there is some way they get to the end of the game and win or lose and you got to go by the rules.

Gah, that's inarticulate. Did he study at the Sarah Palin School of Rhetoric?

126 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:54:21pm

re: #112 researchok

LOLOL

Do a search. There is plenty of literature on the subject- easy to find.

But you made the claim the ideas were horseshit so please, name your sources.

Academia doesn't actually work that way. The person making the positive claim-- especially one as breathtakingly wide as the breakdown of cultures into either 'guilt' or 'shame' based societies-- is required to prove their assertion.

I mean, for fuck's sake, The Chrysanthemum and the Sword was written by someone who never even went to Japan.

So, read Radical Democracy, A New Look at The Chrysanthemum and the Sword and Japan's Radical Constitution.

For example.

127 bratwurst  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:54:46pm

re: #112 researchok

LOLOL

Do a search. There is plenty of literature on the subject- easy to find.

But you made the claim the ideas were horseshit so please, name your sources.

I am still patiently waiting for you to do the same on your claim that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours".

128 freetoken  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:55:09pm
129 SmithCommaJohn  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:56:29pm

This renewed talk of gun control almost makes me wish I owned a gun shop.

I'm quite certain that I would derive great pleasure from getting rich by gouging a bunch of stupid gun-strokers for every penny they're worth.

130 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:56:32pm

re: #126 Obdicut

Start her, Debunking Edward Said.

131 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:56:47pm

OFFS

132 JEA62  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:57:08pm

"Intellectual" is such a reach, don't you think...?

133 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:57:29pm

re: #131 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

OFFS

[Embedded content]

What is this, I don't even...?

134 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:57:42pm

re: #131 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

OFFS

[Embedded content]

Bryan Fischer quoting something from Jim Hoft. That's a Double Derp!

135 Targetpractice  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:58:13pm

re: #134 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Bryan Fischer quoting something from Jim Hoft. That's a Double Derp!

Derpception?

136 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:58:24pm

re: #131 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Bryan Fischer referencing Dim Hoft. Is that just a convergence of stupid or the blind leading the dumb?

137 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:59:16pm

re: #130 researchok

Start her, Debunking Edward Said.

Why are you talking to me about Said?

138 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 1:59:18pm

re: #131 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

OFFS

[Embedded content]

A classmate said he had a webpage. Has anyone actually seen it or is this just another load of horseshit?

I'm betting on horseshit.

139 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:00:09pm

I think we could make some dough offering kevlar jock-straps to the assault rifle mob. Extra-large only, since none of these doofi would buy anything smaller, regardless of actual dimensions.

140 Kragar  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:00:11pm

re: #135 Targetpractice

Derpception?

Yo Dawg, I heard you like derps...

141 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:01:03pm
142 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:01:03pm

re: #131 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

OFFS

Dim Jim Hoft referencing an article from The National Enquirer with hearsay comments by "a former classmate" and, get ready for it...the barber who cut Adam's hair!

143 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:01:36pm

re: #130 researchok

Why, when we're talking about academic study, are you citing something on about.com?

144 bratwurst  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:01:49pm

re: #134 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Bryan Fischer quoting something from Jim Hoft. That's a Double Derp!

It gets even worse though...the corners of the internets that allow unvarnished anti-Semitism (as opposed to the very thinly veiled type on display in the WND piece blaming Jews for the War on Christmas) are regularly featuring theories that Adam Lanza was a Jew. You can google "Lanza Jew" if you want to see what I am talking about, but I certainly wouldn't recommend doing so.

145 efuseakay  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:02:42pm

re: #114 freetoken

BTW, on another dimension in the universe of Derp, I see that the "War on Christmas" is now being explained as a "War on Whites" in some of the backwaters of the reactionary right.

The entire reactionary right/paleo-conservative segment of our society is melting down into one gooey mess of derp.

I guess we're losing that war against Christmas... A Charlie Brown Christmas was on CBS last night!

146 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:03:17pm

re: #126 Obdicut

Right, so in other words, you cannot find a list of articles by academics who have discredited the notioj of shame/guilt societies.

What is even more interesting iws how you don't grasp the notions of thise societies, assigning zero sum values to each. In fact, they only provide cotext.

Neither the shame of guilt society is perfect- far from it.

In fact, a healthy society incorporates elements of both.'

For example, we are guilt based society. As a result, we are loathe t take action unless/until guilt is determined.

This is how and why our gun laws came into play- we do not legislate common sense ideas because we say guilt ought to determine legality (I'm oversimplifying but you get the point). If we wanted to preclude some behaviors we need to incorporate some shame into our system, etc

147 Bubblehead II  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:03:29pm

re: #134 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Bryan Fischer quoting something from Jim Hoft. That's a Double Derp!

And we now go for the Triple Derp.

Lanza’s worshiping page had the word ‘Devil’ written in red, Gothic-style letters against a black background, Trevor L. Todd told The National Enquirer, something which he said was ‘weird’ and ‘gave him the chills’.

/// Another unimpeachable source.

148 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:04:09pm

re: #130 researchok

Start her, Debunking Edward Said.

ISIS? You're kidding.

And specifically, Ibn Warraq who has no academic qualifications?

This is a joke. You have no idea what you're talking about. Good night.

149 Gus  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:04:19pm

re: #142 watching you tiny alien kittens are

[Embedded content]

Dim Jim Hoft referencing an article from The National Enquirer with hearsay comments by "a former classmate" and, get ready for it...the barber who cut Adam's hair!

Image: devil.jpg

150 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:04:37pm

re: #127 bratwurst

I have not found it or heard back yet.

I was wrong.

151 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:04:40pm

re: #146 researchok

Right, so in other words, you cannot find a list of articles by academics who have discredited the notioj of shame/guilt societies.

I wasn't looking for a list. I cited one of the most famous takedowns of the theory.

What is even more interesting iws how you don't grasp the notions of thise societies, assigning zero sum values to each. In fact, they only provide cotext.

"provide context" is not a well-understood phrase. You're going to have to unpack it if you want it treated seriously.

Neither the shame of guilt society is perfect- far from it.

In fact, a healthy society incorporates elements of both.'

For example, we are guilt based society. As a result, we are loathe t take action unless/until guilt is determined.

Except for all the ways that we take action using shame, that is.

153 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:05:46pm

re: #148 The Ghost of a Flea

What the hell are you talking about?

Said has been criticized for sa very long tinme by people very well credentialed.

154 efuseakay  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:05:52pm

re: #147 Bubblehead II

And we now go for the Triple Derp.

Lanza’s worshiping page had the word ‘Devil’ written in red, Gothic-style letters against a black background, Trevor L. Todd told The National Enquirer, something which he said was ‘weird’ and ‘gave him the chills’.

/// Another unimpeachable source.

WE'RE THE DEVILS!!!!!!

155 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:08:14pm

re: #153 researchok

What the hell are you talking about?

Said has been criticized for sa very long tinme by people very well credentialed.

Then why not cite them, and not an about.com article from a non-academic citing another non-academic?

I seriously wonder how seriously you take these arguments sometimes. It's like you're not even trying to seem remotely credible.

156 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:08:33pm

re: #151 Obdicut

Yeah, keep doubling down on that.

I will say this- if you ever want to have a real conversation on the subject I'd be happy to oblige.

I really do believe you misunderstand the concept. That is not uncommon.

157 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:09:21pm

re: #153 researchok

What the hell are you talking about?

Said has been criticized for sa very long tinme by people very well credentialed.

I'm familiar with a lot of critique of Said. Some elements, like his debate with Bernard Lewis, I happen to listen to both sides.

Said, however, has not been "discredited" in the sense that his ideas have been thrown out or are no longer used because their flaws are so great that nothing can be derived from...as have many aspects of anthropological thought. He has been criticized.

And seriously, I'm done. You don't know a push piece from a researched article, and I'm not wasting any more time with this "you can't provide a name, so I must be right" crap.

158 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:10:48pm

re: #155 Obdicut

Uh, Ibn Warreq is highly credentialed.

159 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:12:01pm

re: #157 The Ghost of a Flea

Drivel.

Said is still credible but the stidely widely accepted notions of shame and guilt bases societies are not.

Right.

160 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:12:20pm

re: #156 researchok

Yeah, keep doubling down on that.

I will say this- if you ever want to have a real conversation on the subject I'd be happy to oblige.

I really do believe you misunderstand the concept. That is not uncommon.

I'm perfectly happy to have a real conversation on the subject. For example, I cited one of the (few) books to make the shame/guilt society assertion, and I cited another book, a much, much more widely respected book, taking it apart.

You cited an about.com article.

How is that me not willing to have a real discussion?

161 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:13:31pm

re: #158 researchok

Uh, Ibn Warreq is highly credentialed.

What do you see there as his high credentials?

162 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:14:22pm

re: #160 Obdicut

As I said, academic papers on shame guilt societies are easily found. Do a google search.

Academic Papers discrediting the ideas are not.

163 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:16:38pm

re: #162 researchok

As I said, academic papers on shame guilt societies are easily found. Do a google search.

Academic Papers discrediting the ideas are not.

I understand this is a testament of faith with you, but what I have cited is a well-regarded academic book that takes on the central idea of guilt and shame culture, among other stuff. Have you read it?

And if these papers are so common, why aren't you citing any? Why are you citing about.com articles?

164 TedStriker  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:17:12pm

re: #131 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

OFFS

[Embedded content]

Really, Bryan? Quoting Jim "The Dumbest Man on the Internet" Hoft, whose source is the freaking National Enquirer...

Image: my-mind-is-full-of.jpg

165 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:20:52pm

re: #163 Obdicut

In other you cannot come up with a list of articles that has debunked or discredited the notions of shame/guilt cultures.

It is about me.

And yes, I will provide you with some serious papers on the subject.

But that still doesn't hide the reality you cannot come up with a credible list that once and for all makes shame'/guilt culture beliefs 'shallow'.

166 Lidane  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:23:28pm
167 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:23:59pm

re: #165 researchok

In other you cannot come up with a list of articles that has debunked or discredited the notions of shame/guilt cultures.

I'm still waiting for you to cite a single one asserting it, actually. And I cited more than an article, already. I'm not sure why you're asking for a list, or how you think such a list would be gathered. You seriously want me to spend an hour gathering paper references to disprove your naked assertion? When your last naked assertion was bullshit?

And yes, I will provide you with some serious papers on the subject.

Go for it.

I've been looking on Google scholar, and finding most of the papers using that term appear in theological studies.

168 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:24:24pm
169 allegro  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:34:44pm

re: #142 watching you tiny alien kittens are

[Embedded content]

Dim Jim Hoft referencing an article from The National Enquirer with hearsay comments by "a former classmate" and, get ready for it...the barber who cut Adam's hair!

This barber?

Image: lanza.PNG

Would you trust Adam Lanza's barber for, yanno, anything?

171 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:37:57pm

re: #168 researchok

Yeah, I'm running into a problem finding any papers at all on guilt societies.

[Link: scholar.google.com...]

The only paper since 2011 to use that term was in "International Business Research", not exactly a powerhouse of academia, and it was a reference and not an argument.

Broadening the search to earlier years shows more hits for a search using both terms, but not very many-- a grand total of 23.

[Link: scholar.google.com...]

As I said, I was taught this twenty years ago as an example of a really old and outdated theory. Really old.

172 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:41:44pm

re: #170 researchok

Shame Culture (explanation here)

Not an academic paper.

VARIATION OF INDIVIDUALISM AND
COLLECTIVISM WITHIN AND BETWEEN 20 COUNTRIES

The words 'shame' and 'guilt' never appear in the document. Do you realize this? What the fuck?

Cultural Models of Shame and Guilt

That paper is arguing that our current understanding of 'shame' as it is understood across various cultures is very incomplete. It's conclusion is not in the least bit, in any way, an argument supporting the idea of shame culture and guilt culture.

This is fucking sad, man.

173 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:46:41pm

re: #170 researchok

Shame Culture (explanation here)

VARIATION OF INDIVIDUALISM AND
COLLECTIVISM WITHIN AND BETWEEN 20 COUNTRIES

Shame in Two Cultures:
Implications for Evolutionary
Approaches

Cultural Models of Shame and Guilt

Shame & Guilt project (relevant)

More if needed

An Admirable Culture of Shame

Have you actually read the articles you're citing?

They hold up my assertion that shame guilt are not a dichotomy, which has been discarded in favor of a more nuanced pattern of overlap and emphasis. Which I learned from Shinobu Kitayama, who's cited in a bunch of those articles.

You're copy pastaing stuff, you don't know that difference between "criticized" and "debunked" and frankly this entire discussion has involved you being snotty about me pointing out something you "don't see" in an article.

174 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:48:06pm

re: #171 Obdicut

Well, I have the beginning of my list (plenty more).

Old does not mean discredited.

And my olive branch is out there- if you ever want to talk about it, I'm more than willing. It is a topic I'm familiar with (given my work).

And, as I said, you are not the first to have trouble grasping the full meaning of the idea- in fact, most people have that very same issue (believing it is a zero sum culture war) when in fact, both sides- guilt and shame- are best blended to make for a healthy society.

The tragedy here lies in the reality that as politics becomes a zero sum game, so does our misunderstanding of what ,makes for a healthy culture (which is diversity of thought).

I could go on but I'd probably bore you.

But in the end, Daniels has a point and forces the question- are we best served by indivdual needs or societal needs?

This question is in some ways the foundation of behaviorism

175 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:48:38pm

re: #173 The Ghost of a Flea

Right.

You know, if you had pursued a serious, discussion as opposed to pissing all over me I'd have been more likely to have an exchange with you.

176 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:50:57pm

re: #174 researchok

Well, I have the beginning of my list (plenty more).

No, you don't. One of the articles you cited doesn't even contain the words guilt or shame. You obviously didn't even bother to read it before slapping it up there-- it has zero to do with the topic. Another paper, if you just read the conclusion, you'll see is obviously not a paper arguing for the concept or even really using the concept of guilt and shame society, but instead saying what I did-- that the subject is far more complex. Your list so far is garbage.

177 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:52:47pm

re: #176 Obdicut

Yeah, you're right.

Lots more articles though.

And I'm still waiting on that definitive tsunami of articles which discredit the notion.

178 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:53:47pm

re: #176 Obdicut

LOL

The list is garbage because you say so?

LOLOL

179 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:54:56pm

re: #177 researchok

Yeah, you're right.

Lots more articles though.

And I'm still waiting on that definitive tsunami of articles which discredit the notion.

I really can't believe you offered a paper that doesn't even mention guilt or shame as an example of a paper supporting the concepts of guilt and shame societies.

What the fuck are you thinking? Did you think I just wouldn't read them?

I'm not promising a tsunami of articles discrediting it. I don't have to. In fact, that one you cited claiming in support can actually be used as one against you--

[Link: psych.stanford.edu...]

If you actually read it, that is.

Have you actually read it? Because it's arguing explicitly against the idea that shame and guilt are culturally transferable values.

180 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:55:36pm

Which articles exactly are off topic?

And reading a summary, conclusion or introduction does mean you are familiar with entire content of a paper

181 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:57:04pm

re: #179 Obdicut

LOLOL

You haven't read them.

And you still haven't provided a list of articles or published papers that dispatch the idea entirely.

182 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:58:18pm

re: #178 researchok

LOL

The list is garbage because you say so?

LOLOL

The list is garbage because the first isn't an academic paper, the second doesn't even mention guilt or shame, the third is only an examination of how shame differs between two societies, the fourth actually argues against the point, the fifth also seems to be arguing against the point, and the sixth is a New York Times article.

183 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:59:10pm

re: #179 Obdicut

Actually, the Stanford paper does not discredit the notion at all- it highlights the blending of the cultures.

I don't know why you misrepresented that.

184 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 2:59:27pm

re: #181 researchok

LOLOL

You haven't read them.

And you still haven't provided a list of articles or published papers that dispatch the idea entirely.

Can you answer why you offered a paper that doesn't even mention guilt or shame as an example of a paper about guilt societies vs. shame societies?

Or why you offered a paper that is clearly critical of that concept as one supporting it?

This is fucking weird.

185 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:01:58pm

Hm.

I'm going to apologize for being snarky. It started out as annoyance with the specific quotes I pulled and sort of translated over into the rest of the conversation.

Reading back I'd say we're on the same side of the concept of shame/guilt and there's a misreading on my part. My specific argument with that shame/guilt as a dichotomy is no longer much in standing, not that shame is no longer a subject of study.

I'm not sure I agree with you about Said or the articles posted, by I am sorry that I got heated about this. It's very easy in this medium to get snappy, and then to start perceiving aggression in return posts. And in this case, I'm sure I'm doing a bit of that.

186 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:03:06pm

re: #183 researchok

Actually, the Stanford paper does not discredit the notion at all- it highlights the blending of the cultures.

I don't know why you misrepresented that.

Maybe you should read the section of the Stanford paper that details the way that Chinese culture has a more elaborate view of shame and guilt.

The Stanford paper actually often conflates (intentionally) guilt and shame, frequently treating them as the same, or incredibly similar, concepts.

It's a pretty good paper-- you should read it sometime.

187 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:03:06pm

re: #182 Obdicut

In other words, you still cannot come up with sources which discredit the idea- and thus you find it necessary to divert attention away from tha tfawct.

As for the other papers, I submit you read them more carefully.

Given you 'analysis' if the Stanford paper, that might be prudent.

And yes, the Times piece was an editorial. You neglected to note that link was posted below the others, after my remark.

188 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:06:24pm

re: #187 researchok

I'm not in the least bit sorry for being snarky or harsh with you. This is the bullshit you pull every time: You claim a bunch of authority, wildly fail to back it up-- the intellectual dishonesty of citing a paper in support of your position that doesn't even mention shame or guilt is just fucking astounding to me-- and then claim whoever you're arguing with just doesn't understand.

I don't understand why you need to flail around like this. I don't understand what you feel it gets you to cite a really fucking random list of papers, articles, websites, etc., especially when the most cursory reading of them will show that most either don't support your point, are completely irrelevant to it, or argue against it.

Feel free to lol some more or something.

189 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:09:38pm

re: #185 The Ghost of a Flea

I happen to agree- I'm not so sure we are that far apart.

Also, I want to add a couple of things. My politics have changed over the last few years, decidedly more to the left (which make me more centrist now). I credit a lot of people (read: Here) for a lot of that shift.

That said, I am reluctant to march lockstep with anybody, left or right.

I certainly don't always agree with Daniels but he is a credible voice (on this issue in particular. He was a prison psychiatrist for a long time).

Also, I do believe that I do not have to agree with an article/idea to appreciate it. As someone once noted, Freud wrote about his failures, not his successes.

For me, I get a lot more food for thought from people I disagree with rather than the choir.

190 Tigger2005  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:10:05pm

A man who needs a gun to feel like a man is no man.

191 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:13:39pm

re: #188 Obdicut

Obdi- citing what may be in err (one paper on the list) is far cry from asserting something that is not in evidence. Further, calling that to attention and not your own deliberate misrepresentations does your argument no credit.

You have yet to show me how the notion of shame/guilt societies has been discredited.

And there are plenty of other published articles that I can reference- some of which I'm sure do buttress my point.

You can make this about mke all you want but in the end you cannot sustain your assertions.

192 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:14:01pm

re: #190 Tigger2005

No truer words.

193 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:16:14pm

re: #191 researchok

You attempted to sustain your assertions with a passel of articles that did no such thing.

I am sorry, dude, but this is a big step over the line for me. You cited papers, I followed them up in good faith, and I am incredibly, incredibly disappointed to find they are not legitimate defenses of your point, and that you have been deeply intellectually dishonest in presenting them so.

Seriously, this has made me lose a large amount of respect for you. I consider what you just did to be unethical.

194 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:24:47pm

re: #193 Obdicut

Again, diversionary.

You made assertions, you can't back them up, you deliberately misrepresented the content of one of the papers linked to, focused on what may be an error on my part and now, you want to make this me.

I offered to have a serious exchange on the subject. You didn't even bother to respond one way or the other.

Here is what can't change no matter how mightily you try.

I do this for a living, my work is well received by my peers and I have a lot of experience in the field.

Unlike you, I don't know everything, I don't have all the answers and I'm not an expert in every topic that is raised here.

You can insult me, deride me, and attempt to divert attention from the issues at hand.

But on this topic you have failed to validate what were your assertions- and no amount of making this about me wilkl change that.

195 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:27:43pm

re: #194 researchok

Again:

The intellectual dishonesty of citing a paper in support of your position that doesn't even mention shame or guilt is just fucking astounding to me.

And you haven't even attempted to explain what would make you commit an ethical breach like that.

196 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:32:44pm

re: #195 Obdicut

re: #193 Obdicut

Sorry, but making this about me won't work- and you talking about intellectual dishonesty is worthy of a very hearty laugh!

You deliberately misrepresented the nature of one of the papers, choosing instead to focus on what might have been linked to in err.

There remains plenty in there that validates my remarks and there are plenty of other papers out there. To compare that to what you deliberately did is laughable.

You can try and make this about me all you want, but you were the one who doubled down and asserted shame/guilt had been discredited.

You have yet to prove that.

But go ahead ahead and make it about me- again and again.

197 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:36:00pm

re: #196 researchok

You deliberately misrepresented the nature of one of the papers, choosing instead to focus on what might have been linked to in err.

I didn't misrepresent the paper at all. You're claiming I did; you're not demonstrating, at all, that I did. I didn't. I don't think that you have actually read or understood that paper.

You have yet to prove that.

Have you read the book that I cited long, long ago at the beginning of this discussion, or not?

198 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:38:59pm

re: #197 Obdicut

Show me how academia has discredited the notion of shame/guilt societies.

That was your assertion

199 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:53:02pm

re: #198 researchok

Show me how academia has discredited the notion of shame/guilt societies.

That was your assertion

Please read Radical Democracy, A New Look at The Chrysanthemum and the Sword and Japan's Radical Constitution.

As well as being a generally fantastic book, it takes on the simplistic Western understanding of 'shame' in Japanese culture and shows how inadequate it is to view the culture through that prism.

Or read his papers on the subject.

200 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:55:20pm

re: #198 researchok

And feel free to downding me as many times as you want for calling attention to the fact that you cited a paper that doesn't even mention shame or guilt in support of your contention. You're probably embarrassed. Hell, maybe even ashamed.

201 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:55:56pm

re: #199 Obdicut

That's one.

In fact, looking at the Stanford paper again, it is clear while the authors refer to a 'blending' of cultures or a lesser divide of cultures- they acknowledge differences, between western based guilt societies versus shame societies.

Context is also important. The authors refer to collectivist societies versus more individualistic societies. As these lines blend, nuances become more important.

There is also an interesting point made between between self esteem and self views.

I shall work on the assumption (for now) that in your haste you misunderstood the Stanford paper and probably the others as well.

202 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:57:21pm

re: #200 Obdicut

I only down dinged you in return. As you know.

Which isn't to say I felt they were undeserved but I only down ding as a response.

And look at the bright side- It wasn't as if I deliberately misrepresented what a paper said.

Perhaps you ought to feel guilty about that.

203 Dr Lizardo  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 3:59:53pm

re: #57 Kragar

Tea Party Nation: Train Teachers in SWAT Teams to Fight Hamas

I imagine the idea came to Philips as he masturbated to Red Dawn.

LOL! I haven't laughed that hard in years.

Seriously, this is bringing out the foaming-at-the-mouth lunacy of the wingnuts even more than the recent election.

204 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:08:34pm

re: #201 researchok

I guess you just missed the section beginning:

"This view of shame and guilt, however, rests on assumptions that may not apply to other cultural contexts."
...
"Thus, if we look to other cultures rooted in other philosophical traditions that have different views of the self, it is possible that different views of shame and guilt will emerge."

As, indeed, the paper shows they do, as it demonstrates that in Chinese culture, due to a different sense of the self, guilt and shame are conflated.

In other words, the paper is arguing that the dominant guilt/shame understanding is a Western understanding, and is biased and incomplete.

So, again, it is arguing against your point, not for it.

205 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:30:00pm

re: #204 Obdicut

Read the paper- don't cherry picvk to misrepresent.

First time you did that, OK, honest mistake. Not any more.

Again, it becomes clear you have no training in the subject.

But OK, keep making it about me.

So where exactly are all those papers which discredit the notions of shame/guilt societies.

206 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:36:54pm

re: #205 researchok

I did read the paper.

Please cite from the paper to show that I'm wrong in my representation of it. It is very, very clearly stating that the guilt/shame paradigm that you're talking about is Western-centric one.

Or, to quote from the fucking paper:

These findings suggest that some of the core assumptions about shame and guilt held by dominant models in the emotional literature may not apply to more collectivist contexts.

Which basically is psychology catching up to anthropology.

Read the Future Research Directions. Read the damn paper.

207 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:44:41pm

re: #206 Obdicut

Reading a paper is not the same as understanding the paper (and you just proved that) anymore than going to a therapist means you understand therapy.

These findings suggest that some of the core assumptions about shame and guilt held by dominant models in the emotional literature may not apply to more collectivist contexts.

Big word, I know.

And the collectivist issue is discussed in the paper. It is not dismissive of the notions.

I'll say it again- if you ever want to have a conversation or civil discourse on the matter, just say so.

208 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:48:26pm

re: #207 researchok

I want to have a civil discourse. Please cite from the paper something showing my representation of it is wrong. And please deal with the concluding paragraph as well. Explain how the conclusion is consistent with your assertion.

209 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 4:55:08pm

re: #208 Obdicut

So exactly where are those articles which have so discredited shame/guilt societies?


And see page 214/215, for starters.

210 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 8:02:49pm

re: #209 researchok

Not a citation, and pages 214-215 reiterate that the Chinese formulation of guilt and shame is a more complex one than the Western model. In fact, the duality given there is not between shame and guilt, but shame and anger. And 214 starts out by saying that shame and guilt are much less differentiated in collectivist societies. Both those things work against your point.

211 researchok  Wed, Dec 19, 2012 11:44:26pm

re: #210 Obdicut

Forgive me- my mistake.

I thought you knew more about the subject than you actually do.

An equal part of the guilt/shame is the corresponding pride/honor nexus. This influences the basis/shape of anger, etc.

212 researchok  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 1:08:44am

re: #210 Obdicut

By the way where are all those articles that are so dismissive of the shame/guilt idea?

I really ought not let myself get so distracted.

213 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 3:52:27am

re: #211 researchok

Notice how I'm quoting from the paper to support what I'm saying, and you're making big, vague statements?

Yeah.

The funny part is you asking me for papers dismissing the idea, while denying that one of the papers you cited actually is dismissive of it.

I'm done with this. You obviously aren't going to actually cite from the paper or show that I'm wrong, you're just going to assert it, over and over.

214 researchok  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:21:14am

re: #213 Obdicut

That's nice

Pity you cannot tell the truth.

The article does refer to the schism between shame and guilt societies, but hey- clearly you know more than the authors. Or me. Or anyone else.

So where are those articles discrediting the shame/culture ideas- the ones you claim discredit the whole notion?

And by the way, there are plenty of other articles on the subject.

Lots, in fact.

You can make this all about me, but you can't deliver.

So go ahead, take me to task but in the end, I know what this is all about.

And there is nothing you can do to change that.

It really is kind of funny in a way- your attempt to be smarter than everyone about everything- especially in an arena in which your exposure has been... limited.

You know, maybe I ought to put together a page on this. It isn't as if there aren't legions of social science researchers who have opined on the subject.

I'l give it a shot in the coming week- I'll have some time to really collect serious works.

But hey, go ahead and make it about me.

And have a very nice day.

Oh yes- So where are those articles discrediting the shame/culture ideas- the ones you claim discredit the whole notion?

215 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:32:14am

re: #214 researchok

Put together a page. Try to remember not to cite papers that have nothing to do with the topic. Maybe try actually citing from the papers themselves-- if you'd done that, rather than collecting a 'list', then you wouldn't have cited a paper where the words shame and guilt didn't even appear, nor would you have cited a paper which actually contradicts you.

216 researchok  Thu, Dec 20, 2012 4:53:21am

Why do you suppose a page on shame/guilt cultures would cite that paper- and others- if they did not support the idea?

Oh yes- and where are those articles discrediting the shame/culture ideas- the ones you claim discredit the whole notion?


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Randall Gross
Android Crypto Blunder Exposes Users to Highly Privileged Malware
The majority of devices running Google's Android operating system are susceptible to hacks that allow malicious apps to bypass a key security sandbox so they can steal user credentials, read e-mail, and access payment histories and other sensitive data, ...

17 hours, 12 minutes ago
Views: 188 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 10 • Rating: 1
Skip Intro
Outside Money Drives a Deluge of Political Ads
WASHINGTON -- An explosion of spending on political advertising on television -- set to break $2 billion in congressional races, with overall spots up nearly 70 percent since the 2010 midterm election -- is accelerating the rise of moneyed ...

1 day, 16 hours ago
Views: 194 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 4 • Rating: 3
Rightwingconspirator
Washington, D.C., Handgun Carry Ban Is Ruled Unconstitutional
I agree. Bans are not an option. Jurisdictions like DC will just have to deal with the fact that regulation is the path. Bans don't work. Bans are illegal and unwise. It's simple. we as a society have chosen to ...

2 days, 12 hours ago
Views: 501 • Comments: 95
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 5
Romantic Heretic
Preventing Poverty Not Allowed As A Goal for Charity
The Canada Revenue Agency (Canada's equivalent of the IRS) has told OXFAM Canada that it cannot list 'preventing poverty' as a goal, only 'alleviating' it. The reason is "Relieving poverty is charitable, but preventing it is not." This is just ...

4 days, 13 hours ago
Views: 472 • Comments: 12
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 4
FemNaziBitch
Safer Era Tests Wisdom of ‘Broken Windows’ Focus on Minor Crime
While the apparent chokehold fueled much of the initial public outcry, community leaders have begun asking whether focusing police officers so intently on such petty offenses makes sense in a city that is far different and far safer than ...

4 days, 20 hours ago
Views: 356 • Comments: 2
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 1
Mentis Fugit
Frisson
Over at the quirky Riddled blog, I encountered this music video link. I have the album, but I had last listened long ago, and I had forgotten the lyrics. The lengthy, moody intro slowly drew me back thirty five years, ...

1 week ago
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BadExampleMan
The painful futility of war
This makes me furious. These men pledged their loyalty to their country and their country betrayed them. It treated them as disposable, throwing their lives away in a war that was premised on lies, that was chosen gleefully, and that ...

1 week, 1 day ago
Views: 434 • Comments: 0
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MichaelJ
Mick Fanning Wins J-Bay Open 2014
More: MICK FANNING WINS J-BAY OPEN Finals day for the contest was run in perfect Supertubes conditions. Too bad Kelly Slater and Jordy Smith were eliminated in lesser quality surf - it would have been amazing to have both of ...

1 week, 2 days ago
Views: 348 • Comments: 0
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Thrazidun
Paris: Jews Fight Back Against Islamist Mob - Jewish World - News - Arutz Sheva
More: Paris: Jews Fight Back Against Islamist Mob - Jewish World - News - Arutz Sheva

1 week, 4 days ago
Views: 1,011 • Comments: 5
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 Frank says:

You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream. -- On a postcard from Rykodisc