Lynndie England, the woman seen abusing Iraqi prisoners in the infamous Abu Ghraib photographs, is not sorry about anything — and she says she has 800 more pictures from her time in Iraq that would be very damaging to the Army and the White House if released. (She’s selling a book, of course.)
2 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:08:49am |
She and the guy who fathered her child and then abandoned her . . . completely without morals, class, taste, or really, anything good.
| 3 |
BlueCanuck Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:09:17am |
I tried reading that article earlier. Ugh, the hatred towards her was unreal. Some of it was warranted in a sense but other stuff was just down right personal. As well they were slamming Bush policies and other items. The L3 was too much for me. I was only able to get halfway through the article before giving up.
/I left my antacids at home today.
| 4 |
King of the Douche, now you may bow Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:09:54am |
Great, another monkey thread.
/not my fault
| 5 |
Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:10:05am |
Sick people get their jollies by hurting others and not feeling sorry for it.
| 6 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:10:41am |
'I can't even hunt squirrels no more, because I'm not permitted to own a firearm,' she moans.
Words fail me.
| 7 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:10:48am |
'I can't even hunt squirrels no more, because I'm not permitted to own a firearm,' she moans.
Don't let that stop you. Didn't stop von Brunn.
| 8 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:10:50am |
Why do I get the idea this (the book) is all about "herself"?
| 9 |
ErnieG Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:10:56am |
As someone noted in a previous thread, she's a sociopath. Also, she is embittered and has turned into an agent provocateur for the other side.
| 10 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:11:01am |
re: #1 Cato the Elder
White trash bimbo.
That is far too generous an assessment; what I would say would get me banned faster than last Sunday.
*blankety-blank-blank* [self-deleted] *blank-blank*
| 12 |
BlueCanuck Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:11:18am |
| 13 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:12:07am |
re: #7 Cato the Elder
Don't let that stop you. Didn't stop von Brunn.
She has already shown she has no respect for the Rule of Law.
| 14 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:12:12am |
re: #9 ErnieG
As someone noted in a previous thread, she's a sociopath. Also, she is embittered and has turned into an agent provocateur for the other side.
Um, not?
She is on her own side and nothing else.
| 15 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:13:06am |
re: #9 ErnieG
As someone noted in a previous thread, she's a sociopath. Also, she is embittered and has turned into an agent provocateur for the other side.
She has always been on her side.
| 16 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:13:25am |
To some she is a hero. You know who they are.
| 18 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:14:29am |
'Sorry? For what I did?' she interjects, incredulous. 'All I did was stand in the pictures. Saying sorry is admitting I was guilty and I'm not. I was just doing my duty.'
Didn't work back then and it doesn't work now, asshole.
| 19 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:14:35am |
| 20 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:14:42am |
'Lynndie only has two moods: bored and p****d off.'During our first meeting, when she yawns through my questions, I see what he means.
| 22 |
songbird Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:15:36am |
Not sure why she is free and not in prison. She should be thankful that she is out to be able to complain about not being able to shoot Booping squirrels! Mistreatment of POWs to the level that she did is grounds for being charged as a war criminal, which carries the death penalty.
| 24 |
King of the Douche, now you may bow Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:15:58am |
Liberals will say "we support the troops but not the mission."
Can I say "I support the troops but can't stand her?"
| 25 |
slokat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:16:01am |
I predict that the publisher is gonna recycle most of the copies of the book...
| 26 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:16:16am |
Just posting in a spinoff on this thread -- cell phone service is out in Tehran, but not in the provinces.
Gee, ... ya' think?!?!?!
| 28 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:17:27am |
re: #12 BlueCanuck
Well it is a biography.
/ducks
Concerning the photos, it seems better called some sort of bio-graphic.
| 30 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:18:19am |
Reposted from last thread, because people need to read it.
Some will shoot the messenger, some will scorn the source, but Paul Krugman yesterday nailed the problem with the GOP's mainstreaming of irrational nutbag extremism:
Last line, for the impatient: Politicians and media organizations wind up such people at their, and our, peril.
Warning: NYT link, NSFW if you work for Fox
| 31 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:18:54am |
re: #3 BlueCanuck
I tried reading that article earlier. Ugh, the hatred towards her was unreal. Some of it was warranted in a sense but other stuff was just down right personal. As well they were slamming Bush policies and other items. The L3 was too much for me. I was only able to get halfway through the article before giving up.
/I left my antacids at home today.
Well, yes, the LLL angle was an aggravation, but there is no denying this woman is pure trash, through and through, completely sick in the mind - I cannot fathom how a person gets to such a state (did you take a peek at those photos of the disgusting activities she took part in?) unless they just quite simply have no morals at all.
| 32 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:19:02am |
I just treid to read the article again. Not only is the subject matter disturbing it's awfully written.
| 34 |
songbird Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:20:42am |
re: #28 pre-Boomer Marine brat
Concerning the photos, it seems better called some sort of bio-graphic.
My husband (former Ranger) says that since she still has an inactive reserve commitment, despite her dishonorable discharge, the Army could honor her her contract and she could be called up on active duty for one day to face the charge of treason against the US. She should not be in possession of those pictures which she boasts could damage the Army.
| 35 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:21:11am |
re: #31 reine.de.tout
Well, yes, the LLL angle was an aggravation, but there is no denying this woman is pure trash, through and through, completely sick in the mind - I cannot fathom how a person gets to such a state (did you take a peek at those photos of the disgusting activities she took part in?) unless they just quite simply have no morals at all.
I just cannot imagine seeing such stuff going on and not trying to put a stop to it, MUCH LESS take part in it! How can anyone place so little value on human life?
| 36 |
Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:21:53am |
How in the world did this POS even get a publisher?
| 37 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:22:06am |
re: #35 reine.de.tout
I just cannot imagine seeing such stuff going on and not trying to put a stop to it, MUCH LESS take part in it! How can anyone place so little value on human life?
The asshole claimed she was following orders.
| 39 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:22:18am |
If she's violating any parole conditions, they ought to hand her over to The Hague.
Isn't there a law that prohibits merds like her and OJ from profiting on books they write about their crimes? She may find herself out the ghostwriting fee with nothing to show for it.
| 40 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:22:24am |
| 41 |
Cathypop Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:23:14am |
re: #35 reine.de.tout
I just cannot imagine seeing such stuff going on and not trying to put a stop to it, MUCH LESS take part in it! How can anyone place so little value on human life?
She is an ugly thing that has no respect for other humans and never will.
| 42 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:24:23am |
re: #34 songbird
My husband (former Ranger) says that since she still has an inactive reserve commitment, despite her dishonorable discharge, the Army could honor her her contract and she could be called up on active duty for one day to face the charge of treason against the US. She should not be in possession of those pictures which she boasts could damage the Army.
I'd like to see that.
She's taken her stand. It's time for some accountability.
| 43 |
Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:24:29am |
re: #38 Sharmuta
How did OJ get one?
It boggles the mind, doesn't it? I'll expect to see her book on sale at the .99 Cents Only stores real soon.
| 44 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:25:03am |
re: #37 MandyManners
The asshole claimed she was following orders.
That perhaps is what she claims.
But it's just wrong wrong wrong to treat a person in such a disgusting and degrading way for the sole purpose of getting pleasure in their pain and humiliation.
Wrong.
| 45 |
legalpad Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:25:33am |
Hmmm. You've slandered the military with your actions. Now you want to endanger them further for money. Hmmm.
| 46 |
Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:25:42am |
| 48 |
EaterOfFood Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:26:09am |
| 49 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:26:16am |
re: #44 reine.de.tout
That perhaps is what she claims.
But it's just wrong wrong wrong to treat a person in such a disgusting and degrading way for the sole purpose of getting pleasure in their pain and humiliation.
Wrong.
She's a sociopath. She doesn't care.
| 50 |
BlueCanuck Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:26:21am |
re: #31 reine.de.tout
Yes I saw the photos. Rather disturbing in a sense. Even worse was the look on her face in some of them.
| 52 |
songbird Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:27:07am |
re: #37 MandyManners
The asshole claimed she was following orders.
You would have to have a non-existent conscience to follow those evil orders!
| 53 |
MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:27:11am |
re: #39 Cato the Elder
"Isn't there a law that prohibits merds like her and OJ from profiting on books they write about their crimes?" I was just thinking the same thing. I believe it varies from state to state for 'normal' criminals. I have no idea what the UCMJ guidelines are.
| 54 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:27:15am |
re: #46 Pvt Bin Jammin
If that's the case then she has to market it. Stormfront?
In times past, I'd say Alex Jones and his crew.
| 55 |
KingKenrod Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:27:35am |
re: #30 Cato the Elder
Reposted from last thread, because people need to read it.
Some will shoot the messenger, some will scorn the source, but Paul Krugman yesterday nailed the problem with the GOP's mainstreaming of irrational nutbag extremism:
Last line, for the impatient: Politicians and media organizations wind up such people at their, and our, peril.
Warning: NYT link, NSFW if you work for Fox
Bullshit. Krugman uses the tired argument of guilt by association for every right-winger he can think of (Mitch McConnell? REALLY?). His goal is to make conservatives timid and afraid to speak out on principal for fear of being tar-and-feathered as a "hater". He just wants to geld conservatives so he can move on with the Obama agenda.
And why on earth is he talking about Shepard Smith and Catherine Herridge as representative of conservative media? Just because they work for Fox? Beyond Stupid.
| 56 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:27:35am |
re: #52 songbird
You would have to have a non-existent conscience to follow those evil orders!
I don't think she has a conscience.
| 57 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:27:40am |
She has descended below the level of trailer trash.
| 58 |
MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:27:48am |
re: #43 Pvt Bin Jammin
WND will probably help her hawk it.
| 59 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:28:32am |
re: #57 pre-Boomer Marine brat
She has descended below the level of trailer trash.
Lower than whale shit.
| 60 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:28:39am |
re: #46 Pvt Bin Jammin
If that's the case then she has to market it. Stormfront?
[Link: www.amazon.com...]
| 62 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:29:34am |
re: #46 Pvt Bin Jammin
If that's the case then she has to market it. Stormfront?
I think I found the link on a Paulian site. They hold her up as an example of the ugly American imperialism.
| 63 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:29:52am |
re: #60 Walter L. Newton
[Link: www.amazon.com...]
The publisher has a gmail account.
[Link: www.badapplebooks.com...]
| 64 |
haakondahl Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:29:55am |
re: #38 Sharmuta
How did OJ get one?
Actually, in the article, it says that OJ's publisher turned her down!
| 65 |
Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:30:16am |
re: #64 haakondahl
Actually, in the article, it says that OJ's publisher turned her down!
They can be taught.
| 66 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:30:24am |
She took "Be All You Can Be" into an unintended dimension.
/and she's still on the same course
| 67 |
Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:30:39am |
re: #60 Walter L. Newton
Did you notice gift wrapping is available? Puke.
| 68 |
paint-right Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:30:41am |
People were killed over the photographs of her beyond stupid behavior. Is there no end to it?
| 69 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:30:42am |
And for the record: These things could not have gone on for as long as they did without at least tacit approval (nods and winks) from higher up.
Obama is wrong. Those other photos ought to be released.
And eventually they will be.
England is a stupid bitch, but she is also a scapegoat.
| 70 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:31:01am |
Author... (gads, he's the same age as me, what an insult to 56 year olds.)
[Link: www.badapplebooks.com...]
| 71 |
Pvt Bin Jammin Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:32:04am |
re: #62 Killgore Trout
I think I found the link on a Paulian site. They hold her up as an example of the ugly American imperialism.
OMG That ticks me off.
| 72 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:32:07am |
re: #65 Sharmuta
They can be taught.
Didn't Judith Regan catch a lot of heat for her role in publishing his book?
| 73 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:32:39am |
Not even about "ideology".
It's treason (or the essence of it) for money.
| 75 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:33:31am |
re: #50 BlueCanuck
Yes I saw the photos. Rather disturbing in a sense. Even worse was the look on her face in some of them.
Yes!
| 76 |
itellu3times Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:33:37am |
Lynndie England was not in charge of Abu Ghraib.
So she doesn't have the sense to avoid making it all worse for herself by pushing some stupid book. Just why should that come as a surprise?
| 77 |
BlueCanuck Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:33:55am |
re: #55 KingKenrod
Question I have to ask, why is an econominist editorialing on politics? Never did trust his economic forecasts either.
| 78 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:35:13am |
re: #68 paint-right
People were killed over the photographs of her beyond stupid behavior. Is there no end to it?
There's a possibility.
See songbird's from up-thread:
re: #34 songbird
My husband (former Ranger) says that since she still has an inactive reserve commitment, despite her dishonorable discharge, the Army could honor her her contract and she could be called up on active duty for one day to face the charge of treason against the US. She should not be in possession of those pictures which she boasts could damage the Army.
| 79 |
MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:35:59am |
Via the Huffington Post: Report: Mousavi under house arrest... their link comes up empty however.
| 80 |
SecondComing Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:36:02am |
"We move on to another hideous image, in which the same group of prisoners - one of whom Graner had punched full in the face - were lined up and ordered to masturbate."
wow. I have never heard this before. Just looking at England makes me sick.
| 81 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:36:43am |
re: #77 BlueCanuck
Question I have to ask, why is an econominist [sic] editorialing [sic] on politics? Never did trust his economic forecasts either.
Ahem.
Why does a jazz musician talk about politics?
What are your qualifications for your opinions? Lack of a spell-checker?
| 82 |
jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:37:00am |
re: #78 pre-Boomer Marine brat
I hear Leavenworth is lovely this time of year.
| 83 |
Mr. E. Train Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:37:08am |
Dont ask dont tell.
Seriously, does anyone thing what went on in that prison is so much different that what goes on in prisons here in the states? The fact that so many got their knickers in a twist about Abu Ghraib told me two things.
1) Their concern was BS. It was all politics.
2) they have no idea/dont care what goes on in normal American prisons. Again, it was all politics.
Also good to remember, the prisoners there begged to have the Americans stay when they found out the place was going to be turned over to the Iraqi's
| 84 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:38:39am |
re: #79 MrPaulRevere
Via the Huffington Post: Report: Mousavi under house arrest... their link comes up empty however.
How about some more robust debate, FCBBHO?
| 85 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:38:40am |
re: #79 MrPaulRevere
Via the Huffington Post: Report: Mousavi under house arrest... their link comes up empty however.
Even apart from HuffPoo, the probability is high.
I'd be somewhat surprised if I learned, for a fact, that he WASN'T.
| 86 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:41:10am |
re: #82 jcm
I hear Leavenworth is lovely this time of year.
I've been unsuccessful in coming up with a (cough) suitably discreet way of posting about a wall in a courtyard ...
/*crickets*
| 87 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:41:27am |
Testing embedded video with LGF Spy:
| 88 |
MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:41:40am |
It seems to be breaking down in Tehran, watch this: Violent clashes in Tehran. [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
| 89 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:42:05am |
re: #83 Mr. E. Train
Put up some links about what happens in prison.
| 90 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:42:23am |
re: #83 Mr. E. Train
Dont ask dont tell.
Seriously, does anyone thing what went on in that prison is so much different that what goes on in prisons here in the states? The fact that so many got their knickers in a twist about Abu Ghraib told me two things.
1) Their concern was BS. It was all politics.
2) they have no idea/dont care what goes on in normal American prisons. Again, it was all politics.Also good to remember, the prisoners there begged to have the Americans stay when they found out the place was going to be turned over to the Iraqi's
If I recall correctly, that Graner POS that Lyndie was having an affair with is (or was) a corrections officer, did work in a prison in the US and did engage in similar atrocious activities as a prison guard.
And it does not matter if the prisoners there begged to have the Americans stay - their treatment of those people, whoever they were, however bad they were, however much they hated the U.S. - was wrong.
You can't possibly be saying, can you, that we should be OK with that treatment because the prisoners wanted the US to stay?
| 91 |
jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:42:47am |
re: #86 pre-Boomer Marine brat
I've been unsuccessful in coming up with a (cough) suitably discreet way of posting about a wall in a courtyard ...
/*crickets*
Lyndie, hold up this wall for a sec will ya'...........
| 93 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:43:36am |
re: #83 Mr. E. Train
Dont ask dont tell.
Seriously, does anyone thing what went on in that prison is so much different that what goes on in prisons here in the states? The fact that so many got their knickers in a twist about Abu Ghraib told me two things.
1) Their concern was BS. It was all politics.
2) they have no idea/dont care what goes on in normal American prisons. Again, it was all politics.Also good to remember, the prisoners there begged to have the Americans stay when they found out the place was going to be turned over to the Iraqi's
Interesting point about prisons here. Everyone knows that prisoner-on-prisoner rape is part of the punishment.
| 94 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:44:36am |
re: #83 Mr. E. Train
But other than that, what Reine said.
| 95 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:45:05am |
re: #87 Charles
Testing embedded video with LGF Spy:
heh ... what happens when Spy scrolls the video off the bottom?
The video Which Will Not DIE?!?!
*gasp*
| 96 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:45:05am |
re: #87 Charles
Testing embedded video with LGF Spy:
[Video]
Worked for me.
Plus the full comment now shows up in spy.
Now I'm really going to get addicted to spy all over again.
| 97 |
King of the Douche, now you may bow Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:45:09am |
re: #87 Charles
Crack heads everywhere are dancing.
/sorry
| 98 |
Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:45:48am |
Last update - 21:39 13/06/2009
Report: Defeated Ahmadinejad rival arrested in Iran
By Yossi Melman, Haaretz Correspondent, and News Agencies
Tags: Israel News
Iranian presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi was arrested Saturday shortly after he was defeated at the polls by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, an unofficial source reported.
[Link: www.haaretz.com...]
Hum. I guess there is don't ask don't tell and then there Iran there is "Don't Bitch and Don't moan OR ELSE"?
| 99 |
Irenicum Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:46:27am |
"just doing my duty"
Hmmm, where have we heard that defense before?
| 100 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:46:28am |
Another test:
| 101 |
zombie Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:48:07am |
'I can't even hunt squirrels no more, because I'm not permitted to own a firearm,' she moans.
Lynndie England is the embodiment of everything the Left wants to be true about "ignorant rednecks."
But the Daily Mail author infuriates with this passage:
Five years have passed since a U.S. TV station first broadcast those pictures, staged to humiliate and dehumanise Iraqi prisoners - and provide warped amusement for their U.S. Army guards - at Abu Ghraib prison, near Baghdad.They caused universal outrage, ending any lingering pretence that President George W. Bush was on some moral crusade in Iraq
This passage simply repeats the leftist-Islamist line as fact -- that the actions of Lynndie and Graner somehow negate the entire moral structure of the Iraq liberation effort.
| 103 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:49:17am |
re: #101 zombie
This passage simply repeats the leftist-Islamist line as fact -- that the actions of Lynndie and Graner somehow negate the entire moral structure of the Iraq liberation effort.
Yeah. Got my wrath rising.
| 104 |
Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:49:21am |
re: #101 zombie
When did the truth ever matter to the left
| 105 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:49:56am |
re: #88 MrPaulRevere
It seems to be breaking down in Tehran, watch this: Violent clashes in Tehran. [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
I think the helmeted/uniformed men are in the Ashura Brigades.
I shudder to think of it, but will the Pasdaran be sent in?
I remember images of Budapest -- tanks in the streets.
| 106 |
HelloDare Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:50:17am |
re: #100 Charles
Another test:
I was waiting for the Flame Drill to come through the ceiling as Griffin was signing.
| 108 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:50:37am |
re: #91 jcm
Lyndie, hold up this wall for a sec will ya'...........
It's a simple job.
She could do it blindfolded.
| 109 |
legalpad Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:51:11am |
re: #83 Mr. E. Train
Dont ask dont tell.
Seriously, does anyone thing what went on in that prison is so much different that what goes on in prisons here in the states? The fact that so many got their knickers in a twist about Abu Ghraib told me two things.
1) Their concern was BS. It was all politics.
2) they have no idea/dont care what goes on in normal American prisons. Again, it was all politics.Also good to remember, the prisoners there begged to have the Americans stay when they found out the place was going to be turned over to the Iraqi's
It is different. Anything that does not support the objectives our people are dying for is not acceptable. The abusers are propagandists for the enemy. Propaganda matters. Winning matters. Abusing people because they are bad or because you are mad at them does not help us win, or survive. It is not tactical. If "enhanced interrogation" is used, it should be very limited and under control. Aside from that it should be strictly a official, by-the-book, POW camp. Nothing else helps.
| 110 |
jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:51:59am |
re: #105 pre-Boomer Marine brat
I think the helmeted/uniformed men are in the Ashura Brigades.
I shudder to think of it, but will the Pasdaran be sent in?
I remember images of Budapest -- tanks in the streets.
Likely.
If it continues.
Ugliness ahead.
A golden opportunity for those with the boldness to take the initiative.
Instead The One compliments himself on the effects of his speech on robust dialogue.
| 111 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:52:39am |
It has occurred to me that the LGF Spy might make a good replacement for the Lizard Lounge, if I add a comment posting form to the Spy page.
Threads could be designated as Lounge threads, and be visible only to registered lizards.
| 112 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:52:43am |
re: #91 jcm
heh
Thanks for the lead-in.
Part of the trick of subtlety is, not to put it all into one.
| 113 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:53:21am |
re: #110 jcm
Likely.
If it continues.
Ugliness ahead.A golden opportunity for those with the boldness to take the initiative.
Instead The One compliments himself on the effects of his speech on robust dialogue.
That ran through my mind repeatedly while I watched that video.
| 114 |
MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:53:22am |
An interesting Flickr page of protest/riot photos: [Link: www.flickr.com...]
| 115 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:53:24am |
OT -
daughter just called, she's in Prague right now, has visited Berlin and Dresden, and she said the trip thus far is "amazing!" (and it isn't even half over).
I want to cry, I'm so happy she had this opportunity to take this trip.
| 116 |
zombie Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:54:05am |
re: #88 MrPaulRevere
It seems to be breaking down in Tehran, watch this: Violent clashes in Tehran. [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
Nice link! Good video.
| 117 |
Irenicum Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:54:15am |
re: #30 Cato the Elder
Thank you so much for the link Cato! I somehow missed it yesterday. I am glad he mentioned Shep as one of the very few who have made it a point of not going along with the Big Hate. Shep is da man!
| 118 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:54:57am |
re: #111 Charles
It has occurred to me that the LGF Spy might make a good replacement for the Lizard Lounge, if I add a comment posting form to the Spy page.
Threads could be designated as Lounge threads, and be visible only to registered lizards.
You Fucking rock Charles!
| 119 |
bbcrackmonkey Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:56:21am |
Charles, Iran is erupting in violence right now due to the election fraud.
Surely this deserves your attention and an article on the front page of LGF.
The election results were entirely fraudulent in favor of Ahmadinejad.
| 120 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:56:24am |
re: #111 Charles
It has occurred to me that the LGF Spy might make a good replacement for the Lizard Lounge, if I add a comment posting form to the Spy page.
Threads could be designated as Lounge threads, and be visible only to registered lizards.
Wow.
Charles - if you do that, would it be possible to show more comments on a spy page than you currently do? when threads are moving fast, I miss things and by the time I can scroll to the bottom to see what I wanted to see, it's gone. If you add a comment posting form for spy, the restriction on the number of things that show up would make it even more difficult to keep up.
OR, have a 2nd "spy" that's devoted to a chat thread?
OR, shall I shut up and let you figure it out?
| 121 |
MrPaulRevere Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:57:28am |
I know its not kosher to pass along rumors, but make of this what you will: Panic on the streets of Tehran. Outside mass protests. Between 50-100 dead [Link: tehranbureau.com...]
| 122 |
zombie Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:57:46am |
re: #111 Charles
It has occurred to me that the LGF Spy might make a good replacement for the Lizard Lounge, if I add a comment posting form to the Spy page.
Threads could be designated as Lounge threads, and be visible only to registered lizards.
But then the Spy will record everything that happens -- except for what happens in the Spy itself!
I mean, if each thread has its own comment-enabled Spy, then will all the other Spies display the comments that are happening exclusively in the spy-threads?
(I seem to be talking in circles here.)
In other words, will comments made in a Spy thread counts as official "comments" that will be recorded and displayed by the overall Spy?
| 123 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:58:43am |
re: #121 MrPaulRevere
I know its not kosher to pass along rumors, but make of this what you will: Panic on the streets of Tehran. Outside mass protests. Between 50-100 dead [Link: tehranbureau.com...]
In the meantime, that stupid bitch Hillary Clinton bloviates about the Iranian people's decision.
| 124 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:58:47am |
re: #110 jcm
Likely.
If it continues.
Ugliness ahead.A golden opportunity for those with the boldness to take the initiative.
Instead The One compliments himself on the effects of his speech on robust dialogue.
I would like to see him trying robust dialogue at the Corvin Cinema or the Killian Barracks.
Bambi would crap his f***ing pants if he had to be among men like that.
We will never see a statue of Obama like that of Nagy on the little footbridge, his head turned, watching the Parliament House. Obama is trailer trash compared to those Hungarians.
| 125 |
Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:58:49am |
re: #119 bbcrackmonkey
Charles, Iran is erupting in violence right now due to the election fraud.
Surely this deserves your attention and an article on the front page of LGF.
The election results were entirely fraudulent in favor of Ahmadinejad.
There is no real evidence that the election results are fraudulent. I am not saying they weren't, but we don't know if they were.
| 126 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:59:25am |
re: #114 MrPaulRevere
Thanks for posting that.
| 127 |
MandyManners Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:59:35am |
re: #123 MandyManners
In the meantime, that stupid bitch Hillary Clinton bloviates about the Iranian people's decision.
Does she actually think the people make decisions in a dictatorship?
| 128 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:59:37am |
re: #115 reine.de.tout
OT -
daughter just called, she's in Prague right now, has visited Berlin and Dresden, and she said the trip thus far is "amazing!" (and it isn't even half over).I want to cry, I'm so happy she had this opportunity to take this trip.
A whole bunch of young relatives and friends' kids I know have been to Yurp this spring. I've been getting updates via Facebook.
And my cousin Katie has developed a talent for photography. Her snaps are never crappy and often near-professional in composition.
Sigh. Paris will do that to a person.
Godspeed to your grrl.
| 129 |
jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:59:39am |
re: #111 Charles
It has occurred to me that the LGF Spy might make a good replacement for the Lizard Lounge, if I add a comment posting form to the Spy page.
Threads could be designated as Lounge threads, and be visible only to registered lizards.
Spy makes me dizzy, the lounge was to fast for my slow brain....
But don't let that stop the uber coolness!
| 130 |
Lincolntf Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:59:40am |
re: #116 zombie
The protesters have guts, that's for sure. Unfortunately, they do not have guns. If they can get out of this without a Tiananmen Square-like incident I'll be grateful.
| 131 |
Irenicum Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:59:41am |
re: #63 Walter L. Newton
Badapplebooks? Seriously? Strangely appropriate though.
| 132 |
Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:00:20pm |
If the Spy had a comment form- would it be it's own function?
| 133 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:00:21pm |
re: #122 zombie
But then the Spy will record everything that happens -- except for what happens in the Spy itself!
I mean, if each thread has its own comment-enabled Spy, then will all the other Spies display the comments that are happening exclusively in the spy-threads?
(I seem to be talking in circles here.)
In other words, will comments made in a Spy thread counts as official "comments" that will be recorded and displayed by the overall Spy?
Infinite regression. Mirrors mirroring mirrors.
If anyone can figure it out, Charles can.
| 134 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:00:34pm |
re: #115 reine.de.tout
Good news. I've never been to Prague. I hear it's nice.
| 135 |
lobo91 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:00:35pm |
From the "wishful thinking" file:
US hopes Iran vote shows `genuine will and desire'
NIAGARA FALLS, Ontario – U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said Saturday the U.S. hopes the outcome of the contested Iranian presidential election reflects the "genuine will and desire" of the Iranian people.
| 136 |
aboo-Hoo-Hoo Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:00:41pm |
| 137 |
jcm Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:01:06pm |
re: #124 pre-Boomer Marine brat
I would like to see him trying robust dialogue at the Corvin Cinema or the Killian Barracks.
Bambi would crap his f***ing pants if he had to be among men like that.
We will never see a statue of Obama like that of Nagy on the little footbridge, his head turned, watching the Parliament House. Obama is trailer trash compared to those Hungarians.
I know, all the arguments against it but our failure to help the Hungarians and Czechs in the uprisings has always depressed me.
| 138 |
tommygum Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:01:36pm |
| 139 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:01:58pm |
re: #134 Killgore Trout
Good news. I've never been to Prague. I hear it's nice.
She said it's "creepy".
I have no clue what that means.
Probably just old.
| 140 |
Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:03:17pm |
re: #132 Sharmuta
If the Spy had a comment form- would it be it's own function?
What I mean is the comment form wouldn't be in the spy. A spy with a comment form would be it's own function.
| 141 |
Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:03:22pm |
re: #135 lobo91
From the "wishful thinking" file:
Wishful thinking is the bases of this administrations foreign policy
| 142 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:03:24pm |
re: #131 Irenicum
Badapplebooks? Seriously? Strangely appropriate though.
That certainly is a one shot company set up for this book. There is not other published works listed, no other authors and all the contact people have gmail and yahoo email addresses.
Not a scam, but typical of what you can do no a days. Put a presence up on the net, and bingo, you are in business.
Even the publicist, listed with an address in LA, has a yahoo address. Boy, I bet he has promoted the cream of the crop.
| 143 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:03:25pm |
re: #134 Killgore Trout
Good news. I've never been to Prague. I hear it's nice.
It's beyond nice.
And the last time I was there, good Czech beer was the equivalent of 65 cents a half-liter.
And I was still allowed to drink then.
And the pubs let you smoke.
Sigh.
| 144 |
Nevergiveup Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:04:02pm |
re: #136 aboo-Hoo-Hoo
Police retreat from protesters in Tehran
[Video]
Don't get all worked up over this, it ain't going anywhere
| 145 |
IslandLibertarian Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:05:24pm |
re: #127 MandyManners
"0" was beaming too.
Obama Says Iran's 'Robust' Election Debate Hopeful Sign for US-Iran Engagement
Hopey-Changey-Rainbow-Unicorn-Freedom...............
| 146 |
lobo91 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:05:25pm |
re: #141 Nevergiveup
Wishful thinking is the bases of this administrations foreign policy
Seems to be the basis for all their policies, actually.
| 147 |
Mr. E. Train Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:06:40pm |
Ok, I should be more clear. At work on a Saturday with 2 hours sleep and feeling a little loopy.
Am NOT saying what went on there or what goes on here is ok. Its not. What I was saying is that it does go on yet the only outrage seemed to come when it was going on over there.
Dont have time to go looking for links, but stories of abuse of prisoners by guards are legion. A few years back guards in a Norther California prison were running gladiatorial fights between prisoners, all so they could bet on them.
Had a guy that worked with me. Found out he had just lost his job as a prison guard because he was smuggling porn, drugs and weapons into the inmates. He was out on bail and trying to make ends meet until the trial.
A friend of mine's uncle was sent to prison. Embezzled money from where he worked. He was stupid, a crook and a bit of a smart ass. The latter got him in trouble when he got inside. He said something smart to a guard. Got hog tied and kicked in the side over and over again. Damaged a kidney so badly it had to be removed.
Im NOT saying inmates are innocent lambs. Most of them are bad people that need to be separated from the rest of society least they harm innocents. And Im NOT saying that all prison guards are evil sadistic a-holes, but some are. A job that entails keeping others imprisoned against their will and punishing them when they misbehave will tend to attract sadistic a-holes.
I guess my point in my first post wasn't that such behavior was ok, but it was to be expected. I guess I was just always a bit shocked that what went on there shocked people here.
| 148 |
songbird Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:07:08pm |
re: #123 MandyManners
In the meantime, that stupid bitch Hillary Clinton bloviates about the Iranian people's decision.
That was a waste of breath! She said nothing.
| 149 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:08:40pm |
re: #121 MrPaulRevere
I know its not kosher to pass along rumors, but make of this what you will: Panic on the streets of Tehran. Outside mass protests. Between 50-100 dead [Link: tehranbureau.com...]
(Posted the following with agreement with your caveat)
A comment on that web page:
Two interesting points on Iranian election:
1. After election results were announced, the election committee must wait for three days to accept any grievances for any irregularity before certify the results.
2. The results of election needs to be certified by the Council of Experts before it goes to the Leader for final approval
Today neither of these two rules were followed and the Leader in his speech approved the results of the election and asked all parties involved to work with Ahmadinejad.
A fuzzy memory says #2 is correct, that that IS one of the roles of the Council of Experts.
| 150 |
anotherindyfilmguy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:08:58pm |
re: #125 Nevergiveup
It's an election. Humans were involved...
| 151 |
bbcrackmonkey Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:11:33pm |
re: #125 Nevergiveup
Are you reading anything coming out of Iran right now?
The Election committee approved by all four candidates to monitor this election has said they will not accept the election results because they are fraudulent.
| 152 |
King of the Douche, now you may bow Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:12:42pm |
I'm not bitter but I hope FCBBHO is chain smoking a pack of Luckies and hope Bill is hitting some skank in Hillary's bed
| 153 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:15:02pm |
re: #130 Lincolntf
The protesters have guts, that's for sure. Unfortunately, they do not have guns. If they can get out of this without a Tiananmen Square-like incident I'll be grateful.
I suspect there already has been. Some have, or will, die.
The positive thing will be if they don't die in vain.
See MrPaulRevere's #121, linked to in my #149 pre-Boomer Marine brat
See the webpage MrPaulRevere linked to.
It's possible that this could (just maybe could) be the end of the regime.
| 154 |
songbird Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:16:46pm |
re: #150 anotherindyfilmguy
It's an election. Humans were involved...
Hello anotherindyfilmguy! Independent film guy or Indianapolis film guy?
| 155 |
bbcrackmonkey Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:17:35pm |
Normally after tallying the votes they wait 3 days and then the Supreme Ayatollah announces the winner. In this case, Khameini went and announced Mahmoud the winner the same day of the election.
There were tons of irregularities on the ballots, and pre-election polling and exit-polling both showed Mousavi winning with about 55% of the vote.
Iran has shut down cellphones, Facebook, text messaging, and a host of other websites. There are massive riots in the streets in every major city in Iran. The entire country has erupted. The world deserves to know.
| 156 |
Sharmuta Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:19:19pm |
re: #155 bbcrackmonkey
WTH? You wanted an Iran thread- go post on it.
| 157 |
Irenicum Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:19:44pm |
re: #139 reine.de.tout
Old isn't creepy, old is cool! Prague has always been one of my dream destinations. I want to walk where Kafka walked.
| 158 |
Noah's Arrrgh Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:33:46pm |
Wait a minute. Who put her up to writing this book? Who paid for her ghost-writer? I'm smelling a rat here....
| 159 |
gegenkritik Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:33:49pm |
re: #143 Cato the Elder
It's beyond nice.
And the last time I was there, good Czech beer was the equivalent of 65 cents a half-liter.
And I was still allowed to drink then.
And the pubs let you smoke.
Sigh.
Besides Pilsner Urquell, I recommend Samson and Gambrinus - superb beers. And Prague is a great city.
| 160 |
Noah's Arrrgh Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:41:32pm |
re: #159 gegenkritik
Besides Pilsner Urquell, I recommend Samson and Gambrinus - superb beers. And Prague is a great city.
Also good: Velkopopovický Kozel .
| 161 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:43:37pm |
re: #157 Irenicum
Old isn't creepy, old is cool! Prague has always been one of my dream destinations. I want to walk where Kafka walked.
I'm with you.
Remember that this is the perspective of a 17-year-old.
I think she is underwhelmed, also, by the lodging facilities, although the websites I looked at, they looked like nice places.
Our kids are so accustomed to US-style luxury, they think of it as "normal".
I'm hoping one effect of this trip, aside from the general greatness of a trip like this (which we as a family could never afford), will also be a greater appreciation for life at home.
| 162 |
Noah's Arrrgh Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:43:55pm |
re: #157 Irenicum
Old isn't creepy, old is cool! Prague has always been one of my dream destinations. I want to walk where Kafka walked.
I lived there for many years (even got married there!), and visit about once a year. It's a beautiful city, and the countryside is gorgeous too. If you get a chance I'd go. Here's another nice thing: It's centrally located, that is, it's easy to get to many of the great cities of Central Europe from Prague by train. Berlin, Regensburg, and Vienna are only 5 hours away by train. Dresden is about two. You might consider making that your base and exploring from there....
| 163 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:44:35pm |
re: #143 Cato the Elder
It's beyond nice.
And the last time I was there, good Czech beer was the equivalent of 65 cents a half-liter.
And I was still allowed to drink then.
And the pubs let you smoke.
Sigh.
I have a suspicion I'm going to have to suck it up, deal with my fear of flying, and get myself over there one day.
| 164 |
Obsidiandog Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:45:29pm |
Maybe Lynndie has 800 more photos that might put her and her friends back behind bars.
| 165 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 13, 2009 12:48:59pm |
re: #147 Mr. E. Train
Ok, I should be more clear. At work on a Saturday with 2 hours sleep and feeling a little loopy.
Am NOT saying what went on there or what goes on here is ok. Its not. What I was saying is that it does go on yet the only outrage seemed to come when it was going on over there.
Dont have time to go looking for links, but stories of abuse of prisoners by guards are legion. A few years back guards in a Norther California prison were running gladiatorial fights between prisoners, all so they could bet on them.
Had a guy that worked with me. Found out he had just lost his job as a prison guard because he was smuggling porn, drugs and weapons into the inmates. He was out on bail and trying to make ends meet until the trial.
. . . I guess I was just always a bit shocked that what went on there shocked people here.
Mr. E Train - I think you are incorrect that people are not shocked when it goes on here. You yourself posted the story about the guy you worked with who had lost his job because of his activities as a prison guard.
People are shocked, but it tends to be locally focused because it happens in local institutions. The national shock at this exists because it happened under the auspices of the US government (not a state or local government).
| 166 |
ihateronpaul Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:12:28pm |
I can't believe limbaugh supported this piece of human feces actions.
" CALLER: It was like a college fraternity prank that stacked up naked men --
LIMBAUGH: Exactly. Exactly my point! This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off?
"
What a fucking stupid fuck. How can any of you support such a dumb moron? Ugh, he makes me want to vomit.
| 167 |
right_on_target Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:12:29pm |
re: #37 MandyManners
The asshole claimed she was following orders.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
Very seriously doubt that, she was a loose cannon with probably a few more in her unit.
| 168 |
Henchman Ghazi-808 Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:12:43pm |
There's a British word that describes Lynddie that I won't repeat lest Miss Manners give me the 2x4. Brits love to use it... female genital area.
I can't think of a better term to describe Ms England.
| 169 |
anotherindyfilmguy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:17:05pm |
re: #27 Cathypop
She is a waste of oxygen
Oxygen thief is a term used to describe bottom feeders by some...
I won't be surprised if:
1. The Feds confiscate money she makes off the book under existing laws about not being able to profit from crimes you are convicted of etc.
2. the photos are confiscated and further charges are brought against her for being stupid enough to mention them (or her claim turns out to be false).
| 170 |
anotherindyfilmguy Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:21:19pm |
re: #154 songbird
Independent, Harrisburg PA.
[Link: www.pocketchangeproductions.net...]
Just published "Babar the Jihadi" Available on Createspace [Link: www.createspace.com...] and Amazon etc...
| 171 |
ihateronpaul Sat, Jun 13, 2009 1:30:40pm |
ha, I was the only person to mention limbaugh writing this off as a non-issue. I smell a strong dose of ignoring the 800 pound elephant in the room
| 172 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:14:12pm |
It's fascinating that it would be called "bad apple publishing". I wonder if it was deliberately named that just to self-publish this one book?
People who are interested in the psychology behind prisoner abuse (wherever it happens) would be interested in reading about the Stanford Prison Experiment done back in the 70's.
Here's the link to the study itself -- lots of photos.
[Link: www.prisonexp.org...]
The experiment had to be terminated after 6 days--and the guards by the end were engaging in abuse very similar to what happened at Abu Graihb-- including forming naked pyramids, engaging in sexual humilation and (simulated) rape.
The researcher Philip Zimbardo has given many talks about this esp in relation to Abu G, and he uses the term 'bad apple' frequently-- here are some articles:
Power turns good soldiers into 'bad apples' by Philip Zimbardo
[Link: www.boston.com...]
Researcher: It's not bad apples, it's the barrel
Zimbardo's famous experiment 30 years ago sheds light on abuse photos
[Link: www.boston.com...]
Stanford experiment foretold Iraq scandal
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]
| 173 |
ryannon Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:17:54pm |
re: #130 Lincolntf
The protesters have guts, that's for sure. Unfortunately, they do not have guns. If they can get out of this without a Tiananmen Square-like incident I'll be grateful.
Watch the BBC video: they're young.
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
Iranian voter demographics: more than half are under thirty:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
That fact alone could be a real game-changer.
| 174 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:18:52pm |
re: #171 ihateronpaul
ha, I was the only person to mention limbaugh writing this off as a non-issue. I smell a strong dose of ignoring the 800 pound elephant in the room
Unfortunately Limbaugh was far from the only pundit to dismiss what happened as 'nothing worse than a fraternity prank'. I don't see anyone in this thread doing that, however. Just the opposite.
| 175 |
ihateronpaul Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:26:52pm |
re: #174 iceweasel
Unfortunately Limbaugh was far from the only pundit to dismiss what happened as 'nothing worse than a fraternity prank'. I don't see anyone in this thread doing that, however. Just the opposite.
My point is I was the only person to call him out. Because it seems people have a god-like devotion to him over here. Or something like that. He was definitely the most visible and blatant spreader of that filth, that is for sure.
| 176 |
hazzyday Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:27:06pm |
re: #9 ErnieG
As someone noted in a previous thread, she's a sociopath. Also, she is embittered and has turned into an agent provocateur for the other side.
You mean to say she is trying to emulate Jimmy Carter?
| 177 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:33:22pm |
re: #175 ihateronpaul
My point is I was the only person to call him out. Because it seems people have a god-like devotion to him over here. Or something like that. He was definitely the most visible and blatant spreader of that filth, that is for sure.
I take your point that no one called him out in this thread by name, but up thread there are links to and discussion of the Paul Krugman article that calls out the GOP mainstreaming of irrational hate--- rush is one of them.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Anyway, I agree with you he was (one of) the most visible and blatant spreaders of that kind of filth in re Abu G, but a lot of people here would agree with you on that, I think. I don't think it's true to say that everyone here has a godlike devotion to Rush. I'm sure there are others here like me who can't stand him or even actively despise him. :)
| 178 |
hazzyday Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:35:38pm |
re: #171 ihateronpaul
ha, I was the only person to mention limbaugh writing this off as a non-issue. I smell a strong dose of ignoring the 800 pound elephant in the room
Putting underwear on the head of a prisoner is a non-issue compared to the human rights abuses that go on around the world. It's only an issue because of totalitarian territorialism where I can kill my fellow citizens but you can't stick your tongue out at them without me ratting you out to the UN human rights commission. My crimes are hidden, yours are not. Yours are worse even though you didn't harm anyone and I killed someone. Why? Because you are not me. and I can fool people under the guise of religious insensitivity. It's part of my plan to get you backed into a corner where I can convert people to my religion by violence and with ease.
That being said. Ms. England here should have been turned over to Iragi justice. There are plenty of criminals in the armed forces that need outing and discipline. Young people under 25 need a ton of mentoring and supervision in a high stress environment like this. I saw a video of kids chasing a US military vehicle with hopes of getting a bottle of water and the troops on the vehicle taunting the kids. Bad form. Lack of command and control. Kids everywhere love the good guys and idolize them.
| 179 |
ihateronpaul Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:36:09pm |
re: #177 iceweasel
I take your point that no one called him out in this thread by name, but up thread there are links to and discussion of the Paul Krugman article that calls out the GOP mainstreaming of irrational hate--- rush is one of them.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]Anyway, I agree with you he was (one of) the most visible and blatant spreaders of that kind of filth in re Abu G, but a lot of people here would agree with you on that, I think. I don't think it's true to say that everyone here has a godlike devotion to Rush. I'm sure there are others here like me who can't stand him or even actively despise him. :)
And I'm not saying I do, I enjoy listening to his program. But I get pissed at dumb shit like calling feminists feminazis and how the dittoheads regurgitate his stupid explanations "well a black man called obama, that makes it just fine to call him a magic negro!" NO IT DOESN'T. It's not about political correctness, it is about basic human decency.
| 180 |
ihateronpaul Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:37:35pm |
re: #178 hazzyday
Putting underwear on the head of a prisoner is a non-issue compared to the human rights abuses that go on around the world. It's only an issue because of totalitarian territorialism where I can kill my fellow citizens but you can't stick your tongue out at them without me ratting you out to the UN human rights commission. My crimes are hidden, yours are not. Yours are worse even though you didn't harm anyone and I killed someone. Why? Because you are not me. and I can fool people under the guise of religious insensitivity. It's part of my plan to get you backed into a corner where I can convert people to my religion by violence and with ease.
That being said. Ms. England here should have been turned over to Iragi justice. There are plenty of criminals in the armed forces that need outing and discipline. Young people under 25 need a ton of mentoring and supervision in a high stress environment like this. I saw a video of kids chasing a US military vehicle with hopes of getting a bottle of water and the troops on the vehicle taunting the kids. Bad form. Lack of command and control. Kids everywhere love the good guys and idolize them.
This went beyond "putting underwear" on their heads. Did you miss the photos of the naked prisoners in a flesh pyramid? Did you miss the reports of prisoners being raped by US Soliders. I hate to break it to you, but that shit is indefensible and makes our army look bad. And by apologizing for it you are a stupid dimwit with less than half of a brain.
| 181 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:42:36pm |
re: #179 ihateronpaul
And I'm not saying I do, I enjoy listening to his program. But I get pissed at dumb shit like calling feminists feminazis and how the dittoheads regurgitate his stupid explanations "well a black man called obama, that makes it just fine to call him a magic negro!" NO IT DOESN'T. It's not about political correctness, it is about basic human decency.
I'm with you on that. I even enjoy listening to him at times. Until I get so pissed off that I can't.
Like Ann Coulter, I think Rush is primarily an entertainer. I'm not convinced he necessarily believes all the dumb shit he spouts, so much as he's playing to an audience.
I'm more worried about the people who call into his show. The dittoheads and true believers. And like Coulter, I think Rush is criminally irresponsible about what he says. It doesn't matter what their motives for saying what they do are; what matters is that a lot of people take them seriously.
The feminazi and 'magic negor' shit is a case in point. If I hear one more person claim that the "magic negro" song is ok because "a black columnist called him that" I will lose it.
| 182 |
ihateronpaul Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:48:45pm |
re: #181 iceweasel
I'm with you on that. I even enjoy listening to him at times. Until I get so pissed off that I can't.
Like Ann Coulter, I think Rush is primarily an entertainer. I'm not convinced he necessarily believes all the dumb shit he spouts, so much as he's playing to an audience.
I'm more worried about the people who call into his show. The dittoheads and true believers. And like Coulter, I think Rush is criminally irresponsible about what he says. It doesn't matter what their motives for saying what they do are; what matters is that a lot of people take them seriously.The feminazi and 'magic negor' shit is a case in point. If I hear one more person claim that the "magic negro" song is ok because "a black columnist called him that" I will lose it.
Another thing is I think calling him simply an entertainer plays into his self-image, when in reality people like Dick Cheney and oh the entire republican party consider him a rather authoritative voice.
| 183 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:49:46pm |
re: #178 hazzyday
Putting underwear on the head of a prisoner is a non-issue compared to the human rights abuses that go on around the world.
(snip)I saw a video of kids chasing a US military vehicle with hopes of getting a bottle of water and the troops on the vehicle taunting the kids. Bad form. Lack of command and control. Kids everywhere love the good guys and idolize them.
A lot more went on than putting underwear on detainees heads; the photos that have (so far) been released don't begin to describe all the abuses committed. Read the report the military commissioned on Abu G by Major General Taguba back in 2005.
And just because 'worse human rights abuses are taking place elsewhere, that doesn't mean we shouldnt care about the few we're involved in. We're Americans; I'm proud to think that as Americans we would hold ourselves to the highest possible standards, regardless of what anyone else in the world is doing. To me, that's part of what we do.
I saw that video too. Very sad; awful. I think it proves your point that these young people in a high stress situation need a lot more training, monitoring, and guidance. In my opinion.
| 184 |
kynna Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:53:04pm |
re: #147 Mr. E. Train
I would like people to show the same level of outrage on the subject of prison rape in America. Instead of that reaction we get everyone from politicians to teachers making jokes about it. It's appalling.
BTW -- if she has more photos, shouldn't they have been turned in back when the scandal hit the fan? She's probably photoshopped some stuff. It'll be good enough for AP and Reuters.
| 185 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:55:12pm |
re: #182 ihateronpaul
Another thing is I think calling him simply an entertainer plays into his self-image, when in reality people like Dick Cheney and oh the entire republican party consider him a rather authoritative voice.
Yes. I go back and forth on this. His excuse for some of the really bad stuff is that he's just an entertainer, and people rush (ha) to say that he's just an entertainer and not the face of the GOP...but it gets a little hard to believe that when every other week someone in the GOP is being forced to apologise to Rush for criticising him.
It's so bad that the DCCC has put together an automated "apologise to Rush" website. It's hilarious, but what hurts is that it's true:
[Link: www.dccc.org...]
| 186 |
kynna Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:57:34pm |
re: #180 ihateronpaul
This went beyond "putting underwear" on their heads. Did you miss the photos of the naked prisoners in a flesh pyramid? Did you miss the reports of prisoners being raped by US Soliders. I hate to break it to you, but that shit is indefensible and makes our army look bad. And by apologizing for it you are a stupid dimwit with less than half of a brain.
The "reports" of prisoners being raped by US soldiers have never been proven. If those rapes did occur, why were they not part of the charges? That was not part of the prosecution and has become one of those "truths" the internet spreads around.
Yes, I saw the flesh pyramid. I thought the whole thing was disgusting. But to say there were rapes perpetrated by US soldiers is repeating an unfounded rumor. I'm sure the Paulians love it. I'm surprised to see it from you.
| 187 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:58:43pm |
re: #184 kynna
I would like people to show the same level of outrage on the subject of prison rape in America. Instead of that reaction we get everyone from politicians to teachers making jokes about it. It's appalling.
I couldnt agree more with you about the issue of prison rape in america and our shameful acquiescence to it. Human Rights Watch had a report about prison rape in America in 2001 and it's appalling -- yet no one has paid any attention to it.
[Link: www.hrw.org...]
| 188 |
ihateronpaul Sat, Jun 13, 2009 2:59:48pm |
re: #186 kynna
The "reports" of prisoners being raped by US soldiers have never been proven. If those rapes did occur, why were they not part of the charges? That was not part of the prosecution and has become one of those "truths" the internet spreads around.
Yes, I saw the flesh pyramid. I thought the whole thing was disgusting. But to say there were rapes perpetrated by US soldiers is repeating an unfounded rumor. I'm sure the Paulians love it. I'm surprised to see it from you.
you don't believe that US soliders have raped people?
[Link: www.cnn.com...]
I think it's horrible but I'm not going to deny that it has happened
| 189 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:02:20pm |
re: #186 kynna
The "reports" of prisoners being raped by US soldiers have never been proven. If those rapes did occur, why were they not part of the charges? That was not part of the prosecution and has become one of those "truths" the internet spreads around.
Yes, I saw the flesh pyramid. I thought the whole thing was disgusting. But to say there were rapes perpetrated by US soldiers is repeating an unfounded rumor. I'm sure the Paulians love it. I'm surprised to see it from you.
Kynna-- forgive me, but there were rapes perpetrated at Abu G. One of them involved a translator (so a civilian contractor) raping a prisoner while army personnel took photos and filmed it. This is in the us military's own report, the Taguba report.
Other detainees were sodomised, in one case with an incandescent light. Again, this is all in the Taguba report.
If you'd like I'll find you the links and some passages, but google will also lead you to it.
| 191 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:26:23pm |
re: #190 Iron Fist
After all that's been said and done about Abu Grabass and Gitmo, one thing has become abundantly clear. We should not be in the business of taking prisoners. None at all.
Well, Gitmo has been a clusterfuck from start to finish, and will surely continue to be one.
| 192 |
Perplexed Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:39:20pm |
The Stanford Experiment shows how fast normal humans descend into disgusting behavior. The original experiment was slated to last for one week. They shut it down when they discovered that sadism and sexual abuse were rampant.
| 193 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:49:49pm |
re: #192 Perplexed
The Stanford Experiment shows how fast normal humans descend into disgusting behavior. The original experiment was slated to last for one week. They shut it down when they discovered that sadism and sexual abuse were rampant.
It was supposed to run for 2 weeks; they had to shut it down after 6 days.
And you're right; they had cameras monitoring the 'prison' and the guards were dragging prisoners out in the middle of the night, stripping them naked, forcing them to perform simulated sodomy on each other, all sorts of things.
And these were nice middle class college boys in CA after only 6 days.
In 1971 I was in charge of the Stanford Prison Experiment, in which randomly assigned student volunteers in a simulated prison role-played prisoners and guards. Although everyone knew it was just an experiment, the line between simulation and reality was breached as it became a psychological prison of incredible intensity.
The planned two-week study was terminated after only six days because it was out of control. Good boys chosen for their normalcy were having emotional breakdowns as powerless prisoners. Other young men chosen for their mental health and positive values eased into the character of sadistic guards inflicting suffering on their fellow students without moral compunction. And those "good guards" who did not personally debase the prisoners failed to confront the worst of their comrades, allowing evil to ripen without challenge.
The terrible things my guards did to their prisoners were comparable to the horrors inflicted on the Iraqi detainees. My guards repeatedly stripped their prisoners naked, hooded them, chained them, denied them food or bedding privileges, put them into solitary confinement, and made them clean toilet bowls with their bare hands.
As the boredom of their job increased, they began using the prisoners as their playthings, devising ever more humiliating and degrading games for them to play. Over time, these amusements took a sexual turn, such as having the prisoners simulate sodomy on each other. Once aware of such deviant behavior, I closed down the Stanford prison.
| 194 |
ihateronpaul Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:51:24pm |
re: #189 iceweasel
Kynna-- forgive me, but there were rapes perpetrated at Abu G. One of them involved a translator (so a civilian contractor) raping a prisoner while army personnel took photos and filmed it. This is in the us military's own report, the Taguba report.
Other detainees were sodomised, in one case with an incandescent light. Again, this is all in the Taguba report.
If you'd like I'll find you the links and some passages, but google will also lead you to it.
no true scotsman!
| 195 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:52:34pm |
| 196 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:55:53pm |
re: #192 Perplexed
The Stanford Experiment shows how fast normal humans descend into disgusting behavior. The original experiment was slated to last for one week. They shut it down when they discovered that sadism and sexual abuse were rampant.
Oh another interesting thing about the Stanford Experiment-- Zimbardo himself got so into the role of 'warden' that he didn't realise the experiment had gone too far and needed to be terminated until another psychologist--an outside observer-- had a tour of the prison on the 6th day.
Same thing with Abu G; the whistleblowers had to come from outside the culture. It starts looking normal to the people involved in it.
| 197 |
Perplexed Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:56:39pm |
re: #193 iceweasel
Iceweasel, the Stanford Experiment showed pretty well, just how thin the veneer of civilization really is. What happened there could just as well been the blueprint for the people running Abu Ghraib (SIC). This in no way releases them from responsibility for their actions but does show how relatively normal people, thrown into a bad situation may react.
| 198 |
ihateronpaul Sat, Jun 13, 2009 3:56:56pm |
re: #195 iceweasel
?
Don't see how that applies here?
hazzyday was saying that the reports were "uncomfirmed" when in reality it was an official us military report on prisoner abuse
| 200 |
Perplexed Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:13:37pm |
re: #196 iceweasel
Oh another interesting thing about the Stanford Experiment-- Zimbardo himself got so into the role of 'warden' that he didn't realise the experiment had gone too far and needed to be terminated until another psychologist--an outside observer-- had a tour of the prison on the 6th day.
Same thing with Abu G; the whistleblowers had to come from outside the culture. It starts looking normal to the people involved in it.
It looks like the only way to verify proper operation of an internment system is to have frequent visits by people who have no interest in the system. In this case it would have been the IG running some of his people in for a visit and to promptly act on the writeups even if it meant people got reassigned in the process.
| 201 |
kynna Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:14:31pm |
| 202 |
kynna Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:17:32pm |
re: #195 iceweasel
?
Don't see how that applies here?
I believe he's talking about me. I think he thinks I meant that no US soldier would ever rape someone. And I know they have (and those rapes were prosecuted -- to my knowledge). I'm talking about this specific set of circumstances.
But I can't speak for him.
| 203 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:18:47pm |
re: #197 Perplexed
You're 100% correct. It's one reason why I found the defensiveness around Abu G so upsetting; it really isn't news, or surprising, that the veneer of civilisation is so thin, as you say.
re: #198 ihateronpaul
hazzyday was saying that the reports were "uncomfirmed" when in reality it was an official us military report on prisoner abuse
Oh, i see,--
I'm going to give hazzyday the benefit of the doubt-- lots of people didn't read the report and only know about the photos that were released, and often not even all of those. Hazzyday didn't actually make a 'no true scotsman' argument yet; I'm assuming that he or she just hadn't read the report. (So doesn't know what happened, as opposed to knowing and trying to justify it!)
| 204 |
kynna Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:20:09pm |
re: #188 ihateronpaul
you don't believe that US soliders have raped people?
[Link: www.cnn.com...]
I think it's horrible but I'm not going to deny that it has happened
I wasn't saying that. I said Abu Graib. And the crime that you cite was prosecuted. There's no cover up there.
| 205 |
kynna Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:23:04pm |
re: #187 iceweasel
I couldnt agree more with you about the issue of prison rape in america and our shameful acquiescence to it. Human Rights Watch had a report about prison rape in America in 2001 and it's appalling -- yet no one has paid any attention to it.
[Link: www.hrw.org...]
There is almost no official effort to stop it from within the system. There are groups that fight it, but they have very little support. It's truly shocking.
| 206 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:24:36pm |
re: #201 kynna
I will be happy to Google it, but I'm wondering why there have been no charges of US soldiers of rape or accomplice in regard to Abu Graig.
That's a separate issue. From the report it seems clear that some ought to have been charged with (and convicted of) rape, esp the ones that were involved with sodomising prisoners with incandescent lights. Instead they were charged (and convicted of) "prisoner abuse" and similar vague sounding things.
I think the military was motivated to *not* charge them with rape, if only because it would have made the scandal much worse and endangered our soldiers even more.
The translator I mentioned raped a 15 or 16 year old boy. He is currently the subject of a civil prosecution here for it. No criminal charges have been filed. I think this guy couldn't have been prosecuted by the army because he wasn't in the army, technically. So that's why he wasn't part of the Abu G prosecutions.
Unfortunately there are photos and video of the sexual abuse of prisoners floating around, and its only a matter of time before they get out, no matter what we do.
| 207 |
JarHeadLifer Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:28:09pm |
re: #21 philip
She is a sociopath IMNSHO.
I think that is exactly right. One cannot do to people what she did to people over such a period of time (it wasn't an isolated incident), and NOT feel guild and NOT be a sociopath. I suspect if she spent anytime in therapy, the diagnoses of sociopath probably wouldn't be the only diagnoses that she would receive.
A disgrace to herself, her family, her unit, her uniform her country and to humanity. And, apparently she's just fine with that as only a sociopath could be.
| 208 |
Perplexed Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:31:11pm |
re: #207 JarHeadLifer
I think that is exactly right. One cannot do to people what she did to people over such a period of time (it wasn't an isolated incident), and NOT feel guild and NOT be a sociopath. I suspect if she spent anytime in therapy, the diagnoses of sociopath probably wouldn't be the only diagnoses that she would receive.
A disgrace to herself, her family, her unit, her uniform her country and to humanity. And, apparently she's just fine with that as only a sociopath could be.
Read the link I provided to the Stanford Experiment then get back to me with the "she's a sociopath" comment.
| 210 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:36:04pm |
re: #208 Perplexed
Read the link I provided to the Stanford Experiment then get back to me with the "she's a sociopath" comment.
Well, I think the point is not that she's a sociopath for what she did -- as the Stanford Experiment showed, ordinary and normal people have the capacity for cruelty and sadism -- but she's a sociopath because even now she feels no guilt or remorse.
The people in the Stanford Prison Experiment, in contrast, were horrified and remorseful about their own actions just a little while later. There's an interview somewhere with the most sadistic of the 'guards' where he talks about it.
| 211 |
Perplexed Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:38:45pm |
re: #210 iceweasel
Yep, she isn't remorseful in the least bit and does deserve to have been hammered by the UCMJ. That happened.
As to the 800 extra photos she has why weren't they confiscated during the original investigation?
| 212 |
JarHeadLifer Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:43:19pm |
re: #209 Iron Fist
She made naked terrorists wear a dog collar. Demote her, court martial her even, but don't make it out to be more than it was.
Our enemies cut off people's heads to the adulation of Mohammedans around the world. Some of the very same enemies that the Obama Administration is concerned with making sure that they aren't made too uncomfortable byu the temperature of the room.
Or by a woman standing too close to them.
I think the standard to which we hold our uniformed service personnel should be higher, much higher than the standards to which we hold murderous thugs.
Her case, and the case of her co-conspirator's case wasn't about what the Islamists do, it was about what we do and how we satisfy our obligations and responsibilities as members of the Armed Forces. Lynddie England took an oath to defend the Constitution and to abide by the rules of the US Army. She failed miserably and criminally on both counts and the depravity of our enemy shouldn't minimize her abhorrent conduct in any way.
| 213 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:47:10pm |
re: #211 Perplexed
Yep, she isn't remorseful in the least bit and does deserve to have been hammered by the UCMJ. That happened.
As to the 800 extra photos she has why weren't they confiscated during the original investigation?
I think there's a general problem with all the prisoner abuse photos: photos aren't polaroids or physical entities anymore. They're pixels and electronic images existing everywhere and nowhere. Those photos weren't taken on disposable cameras; they were on cell phones, digital cameras, etc. And the people taking those images were trading them and sending them around. (Isn't that how the scandal broke originally -- a soldier not involved in the abuse received some of the images?)
So it's not as simple as seizing a photograph album anymore. Or even someone's harddrive.
This is partly why trying to block the release of those images (and videos) is doomed. They're all going to come out eventually and then all hell really will break loose.
There are a lot more photos than the ones we've seen mentioned in the press thus far.
| 214 |
JarHeadLifer Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:49:00pm |
re: #210 iceweasel
Well, I think the point is not that she's a sociopath for what she did -- as the Stanford Experiment showed, ordinary and normal people have the capacity for cruelty and sadism -- but she's a sociopath because even now she feels no guilt or remorse.
The people in the Stanford Prison Experiment, in contrast, were horrified and remorseful about their own actions just a little while later. There's an interview somewhere with the most sadistic of the 'guards' where he talks about it.
Yes, you took the words right out of my mouth. It is her complete lack of remorse which is so troubling. I understand that good people sometimes do horrible things because of a "mob" mentality, or perhaps even a deeply misplaced sense of duty. But, when 5 years pass, and you feel no shame, guilt or remorse for those actions, it's symptomatic of serious mental illness.
| 215 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 4:59:12pm |
re: #214 JarHeadLifer
Yes, you took the words right out of my mouth. It is her complete lack of remorse which is so troubling. I understand that good people sometimes do horrible things because of a "mob" mentality, or perhaps even a deeply misplaced sense of duty. But, when 5 years pass, and you feel no shame, guilt or remorse for those actions, it's symptomatic of serious mental illness.
You took the words right out of my mouth with your answer @ 212!
It's interesting to compare Englande with Sabrina Harman, the other female soldier convicted. SH is the one who always had that big smile and was giving the thumbsup in all the pictures. SHE was clearly troubled by it even then-- this is an email she sent to a friend before the scandal even broke: (she wound up with a six month sentence and a bad conduct discharge)
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Oct 20, 03
10:40pm
Kelly,
Okay, I don’t like that anymore. At first it was funny but these people are going too far. I ended your letter last night because it was time to wake the MI prisoners and “mess with them” but it went too far even I can’t handle whats going on. I cant get it out of my head. I walk down stairs after blowing the whistle and beating on the cells with an asp to find “the taxicab driver” handcuffed backwards to his window naked with his underwear over his head and face. He looked like Jesus Christ. At first I had to laugh so I went on and grabbed the camera and took a picture. One of the guys took my asp and started “poking” at his dick. Again I thought, okay that’s funny then it hit me, that’s a form of molestation. You can’t do that. I took more pictures now to “record” what is going on. They started talking to this man and at first he was talking “I’m just a taxicab driver, I did nothing.” He claims he’d never try to hurt US soldiers that he picked up the wrong people. Then he stopped talking. They turned the lights out and slammed the door and left him there while they went down to cell #4. This man had been so fucked that when they grabbed his foot through the cell bars he began screaming and crying. After praying to Allah he moans a constant short Ah, Ah every few seconds for the rest of the night. I don’t know what they did to this guy. The first one remained handcuffed for maybe 1 ½-2 hours until he started yelling for Allah. So they went back in and handcuffed him to the top bunk on either side of the bed while he stood on the side. He was there for a little over an hour when he started yelling again for Allah. Not many people know this shit goes on. The only reason I want to be there is to get the pictures and prove that the US is not what they think. But I don’t know if I can take it mentally. What if that was me in their shoes. These people will be our future terrorist. Kelly, its awful and you know how fucked I am in the head. Both sides of me think its wrong. I thought I could handle anything. I was wrong.
Sabrina
Compare that to Lynndie England, who didn't give a shit then --even seems to have enjoyed it -- and even now doesn't give a shit. One is a person who was in a bad situation; the other seems evil.
| 216 |
realwest Sat, Jun 13, 2009 5:02:57pm |
Drive by - she's a psychopath selling a book. Period.
| 217 |
Eclectic Infidel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 5:31:23pm |
I always thought she she got the short end of the stick - that she took the fall for those involved with the so-called Abu Ghraib scandal.
I'm interested in those photos.
| 218 |
Eclectic Infidel Sat, Jun 13, 2009 5:32:40pm |
| 219 |
hazzyday Sat, Jun 13, 2009 6:06:03pm |
re: #183 iceweasel
You're right I didn't read the report. I don't have the stomach for that type of thing. I'm interpreting the media image that is presented. I would have rather we placed these offenders in Iraqi custody and use the incident as a means to example humanitarian treatment of prisoners. Have a discussion on how all world citizens should act and not just a flame on about how evil the US is.
| 220 |
ihateronpaul Sat, Jun 13, 2009 6:11:27pm |
re: #219 hazzyday
You're right I didn't read the report. I don't have the stomach for that type of thing. I'm interpreting the media image that is presented. I would have rather we placed these offenders in Iraqi custody and use the incident as a means to example humanitarian treatment of prisoners. Have a discussion on how all world citizens should act and not just a flame on about how evil the US is.
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
I am horrified by what happened, and I'm not going to deny what took place either. I'm also against waterboarding but that is a seperate issue. I would be horrified if US Troops got waterboarded.
| 221 |
MacDuff Sat, Jun 13, 2009 6:34:27pm |
re: #219 hazzyday
You're right I didn't read the report. I don't have the stomach for that type of thing. I'm interpreting the media image that is presented. I would have rather we placed these offenders in Iraqi custody and use the incident as a means to example humanitarian treatment of prisoners. Have a discussion on how all world citizens should act and not just a flame on about how evil the US is.
I think that what some of those soldiers did was disgusting and they simply did not deserve to wear the uniform.
That said, this continues to be discussed for one purpose - to soil the reputation of the US Military. Their reputations have been soiled enough by the actions of a few and this continued harping is designed to ensure that our very presence in Iraq bears the stain of these miscreants.
Did the genocide of the Kurds get this much press, or the bodies dug up after our liberation of Iraq, or the stories of Abu Grahib under the Saddam regime, or the feeding of live human beings into wood chippers?
No. The stories were written and forgotten because, frankly, that's what we expected from Saddam and it didn't fit the "Iraq War is Bad" template. On the other hand, American soldiers exhibiting cruelty to Iraqis IS NOT what we expected, and IT DID fit the template.
As far as this bitch and the book, she never deserved to walk on the same ground as the selfless, brave men and women who have been so instrumental to our success in Iraq, many of whom gave their lives. She has chosen to dig up dirt in the latrine for a buck and for that, she will forever remain in the latrine in my mind.
| 222 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 6:35:00pm |
re: #219 hazzyday
You're right I didn't read the report. I don't have the stomach for that type of thing. I'm interpreting the media image that is presented. I would have rather we placed these offenders in Iraqi custody and use the incident as a means to example humanitarian treatment of prisoners. Have a discussion on how all world citizens should act and not just a flame on about how evil the US is.
I think it would have been a huge mistake to put them in Iraqi custody; it would have been tantamount to an admission that the US doesn't mete out justice to its own. Far better for us to do it--and it goes some (small) way to mitigating the damage these people did to our image abroad.
(Also there was pretty much no such thing as 'Iraqi custody' or 'Iraqi justice' at the time, apart from what we'd established there ourselves.)
This didn't have to turn into an international referendum on how evil the US is; it should have been about how all world citizens should act. But that isn't what happened, for whatever reason.
Part of the problem is that most people didn't read the Taguba report, nor were they exposed to the worst images. We also had a lot of misinformation coming from people like Rush, who derided Abu G as just being about putting underwear on detainees' heads, or having a female soldier guard them. "Fraternity pranks".
I was following this, but I never even saw a lot of the photos until Salon published some of the previously unpublished ones in 2006:
The photographs we are showing in the accompanying gallery represent a small fraction of these visual materials. None, as far as we know, have been published elsewhere. They include: a naked, handcuffed prisoner in a contorted position; a dead prisoner who had been severely beaten; a prisoner apparently sodomizing himself with an object; and a naked, hooded prisoner standing next to an American officer who is blandly writing a report against a wall. Other photographs depict a bloody cell.
This link is just to the article, which is disturbing enough. It contains links to an image gallery.
[Link: www.salon.com...]
Anyway, it's all a lot worse than most people think. The media image in the US actually downplayed it, by not talking about the worst images or releasing them. I guess that's partly why the discussion has been derailed.
| 223 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 6:40:39pm |
re: #221 MacDuff
I think that what some of those soldiers did was disgusting and they simply did not deserve to wear the uniform.
That said, this continues to be discussed for one purpose - to soil the reputation of the US Military. Their reputations have been soiled enough by the actions of a few and this continued harping is designed to ensure that our very presence in Iraq bears the stain of these miscreants.
I can't agree with the rest of what you say. This needs to be discussed and the people involved need to be prosecuted. All of them. And we need a full reckoning of what happened. Not because it will 'soil the reputation of the US Military' but for the opposite reason-- it will send a clear and unequivocal message to the world that this is NOT what the US military does, and neither they nor the American people condone it.
On the other hand, I support waiting to release the photos (and prosecute everyone involved and investigating further) until such time as our serving soldiers won't be endangered by the release. Maybe that means not until everyone comes home from Iraq.
| 224 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 6:48:27pm |
re: #220 ihateronpaul
Quick point about that telegraph article (I'm glad you posted it!) -- it says that the rape/sexual abuse photos are among the ones Obama is blocking from release (the ones mentioned in the ACLU lawsuit) -- that's actually not true. The rape/sexualabuse photos/videos aren't even among the ones in that lawsuit -- but the Taguba report makes clear that such photos/video are out there.
Also Taguba has since clarified that he himself has *not* seen the photos/video of the sexual assaults-- he has eyewitness testimony by others who witnessed the assaults and saw others taking photos/video. He found that testimony credible and it's in the report.
So it's reasonable to infer that the photos/video exist, and he believes they do, but he's denied having seen them himself.
That's my understanding of the current state of affairs; I'm a bit obsessive on this topic.
| 225 |
ihateronpaul Sat, Jun 13, 2009 6:49:55pm |
re: #222 iceweasel
This link is just to the article, which is disturbing enough. It contains links to an image gallery.
[Link: www.salon.com...]Anyway, it's all a lot worse than most people think. The media image in the US actually downplayed it, by not talking about the worst images or releasing them. I guess that's partly why the discussion has been derailed.
One would assume if the media was truly a huge liberal conspiracy (might I add the stormfront crowd LOVES that conspiracy) they would have released more images. Cause anyone with half a brain knows worse images exist. Recently there was a documentary on abu gharib, I forget who made it but one can rightly assume in the making of it the director got ahold of some disgusting wack ass shit.
| 226 |
ihateronpaul Sat, Jun 13, 2009 6:50:48pm |
re: #224 iceweasel
Quick point about that telegraph article (I'm glad you posted it!) -- it says that the rape/sexual abuse photos are among the ones Obama is blocking from release (the ones mentioned in the ACLU lawsuit) -- that's actually not true. The rape/sexualabuse photos/videos aren't even among the ones in that lawsuit -- but the Taguba report makes clear that such photos/video are out there.
Also Taguba has since clarified that he himself has *not* seen the photos/video of the sexual assaults-- he has eyewitness testimony by others who witnessed the assaults and saw others taking photos/video. He found that testimony credible and it's in the report.
So it's reasonable to infer that the photos/video exist, and he believes they do, but he's denied having seen them himself.That's my understanding of the current state of affairs; I'm a bit obsessive on this topic.
Of course no matter what I am NOT for the photos being release, but anyone involved should be prosecuted to the fullest extent and even more because they are soliders and set an example for america.
| 227 |
MacDuff Sat, Jun 13, 2009 6:52:58pm |
re: #220 ihateronpaul
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
I am horrified by what happened, and I'm not going to deny what took place either. I'm also against waterboarding but that is a seperate issue. I would be horrified if US Troops got waterboarded.
With all due respect, if you're "horrified" by the humiliation of Iraqis at Abu Grahib and you're "horrified" by waterboarding, what word do you use for the atomization of 3,000 innocent Americans on 9/11/01?
If you were "horrified", doesn't that imply some sort of equivalence? Words mean things, choose them wisely.
| 228 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Jun 13, 2009 6:55:28pm |
re: #225 ihateronpaul
One would assume if the media was truly a huge liberal conspiracy (might I add the stormfront crowd LOVES that conspiracy) they would have released more images. Cause anyone with half a brain knows worse images exist. Recently there was a documentary on abu gharib, I forget who made it but one can rightly assume in the making of it the director got ahold of some disgusting wack ass shit.
Exactly. And if the media was a huge lefty military hating conspiracy-- why didn't we see tons of articles and images in 2006 once the freedom of information act made so many more of the photos available--and worse ones?
We didn't. Instead most people just think of the hooded guy on the box with wires attached to his hands, and they think "Ok, not cool, but so what? the wires weren't attached to anything, we just scared him a little."
In reality, we've got images of prisoners attacked by dogs, beaten, and sodomised. But most in the US haven't seen those images, or know they exist.
I haven't seen any docs on AG yet; if you remember anything about it let me know. I'd watch it. God knows what's in it though, just what I've read is too much already.
| 229 |
SevereTyreDamage Sat, Jun 13, 2009 7:06:45pm |
re: #68 paint-right
People were killed over the photographs of her beyond stupid behavior. Is there no end to it?
No, there won't be an end to it unless and until we get serious about winning the war on Islamic terrorism, or any war for that matter. Bring back consequences for Aiding and Abetting. Hello NY Times, Congress critters who leak secret and damaging intel to the ENEMY.
I won't be holding my breath.
| 230 |
Kulhwch Sun, Jun 14, 2009 7:21:25am |
Well, shoot.
Looked at her photos. Not the best idea, etc. Looked at the photos of the beheading of Daniel Pearl, et al, and those are worse, so while I condemn both sets and the actions behind them, she's got a point in that THEY do far worse. It would be helpful if both sides stopped, but such is the naive dream of those unfamiliar with war.
Was reminded of the persecution of Lt. Calley, who was much more of a monster than this bit of human flotsam. Makes me think that this sort of thing happens in war, and is a side-effect or consequence of it, perhaps.
}:) [So, yep, no conclusions, other than she's getting way too much press, being a lefttard tool by now ... ]
| 231 |
SGTTED Sun, Jun 14, 2009 7:26:55am |
I was stationed at Abu Ghraib during 2003-2004. What SSG Fredrickson and company did certainly warranted their punishment.
But the Taguba report isn't 100% correct in all of it findings.
Nor does it represent the honorable service and actions of the majority of soldiers serving there who oversaw thousands of detainees, doing our jobs and NOT abusing prisoners, all in very nasty conditions, to include almost daily attacks of rockets and mortars.
Some of you are conflating some legitimate EIT with the true abuse that went on.
And maybe, just maybe, you didn't see any more allegedly *new* abuse photos from those released in 2006 because they don't exist beyond your fevered imagination like the rape photos. Or they had already been released and were considered old news.
But, have your fun rehashing Abu.
| 232 |
bubbasbbq Sun, Jun 14, 2009 9:12:04am |
re: #231 SGTTED
Thanks for your perspective Sgt.
I would hope that this would put all this to bed once and for all.
| 234 |
Shane Sun, Jun 14, 2009 6:48:57pm |
I think she showed extremely poor judgement but I also think the enlisted people were trampled on as scape goats. She should have had her butt handed to her but they went overboard on the sentencing for those folks. So she is looking to get some payback and looking to overcome the finnancial dispondence that is now her life. Dishonorable discharge, child to raise and essentially abandoned by her country while some, like the general in charge as well as her master seargent walk away with retirement. She has all the loser CIA agents who wrote books along with ass hat ex-presidents like Carter and worthless congressman and senators who broke the law. Is she a schmuck, sure. But she is among good company in the tell all books from CIA agents to corrupt politicans.
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