Arizona Immigration Law Too Radical for Tancredo

US News • Views: 2,522

Even one of the farthest right nativist Republicans in America thinks Arizona may have gone a little too far.

Former Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO), who crusaded for tough anti-immigration measures while in Congress, told KDVR-TV that while he supported the new immigration law in Arizona he thought it went too far.

Said Tancredo: “I do not want people here, there in Arizona, pulled over because you look like should be pulled over.”

UPDATE at 4/26/10 6:23:02 pm:

Tom Tancredo wants you to know that Arizona’s new law does not go too far. He was misquoted, he says:

a political blog misquoted my statement to a TV station on the new Arizona law.I did NOt say the AZ law “goes too far.” I support it fully.

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726 comments
1 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:14:12pm

I really can’t wait for the supreme court to get to this law.

2 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:14:49pm

What a waffle. He supports it, yet it goes too far. That makes little sense.

Also, when Tancredo thinks you’re too racist, you really need to check yourself, before things escalate and, before you know it, you wind up in the situation where you wreck yourself.

3 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:14:53pm

Wow it’d be like if Sarah Palin said that something “too Christian” for her….

Actually scratch that… it seems like there are a lot of concepts that are too Christian for Sarah Palin if you ask me…

4 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:16:26pm
Said Tancredo: “I do not want people here, there in Arizona, pulled over because you look like should be pulled over.”

Nothing new, really. We here in the real world call it “Driving While Black,” and I wonder if you’ve ever tried to do anything about that.

5 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:17:39pm

IMHO he says “too far” because he still wants as many votes as possible.

Well a politician is not a leader, they won’t just call it as they see it; always hedging.

6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:19:39pm

Did Rep. Tancredo have a suggestion about what Arizona should do?

(yes. I’ll keep beating this drum.)

(I was going to say beat this horse, but that seemed un-vegetarian-ie)

7 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:20:30pm

John Lott would disagree. He sees this very differently.
Thing is I can not tell if his characterization is accurate. You will forgive me for setting aside Tom Tancredos take, as his credibility is limited.
My take is we need to control immigration, I’d like to actually deport all violent felons, and I’d like to not be thought a racist for these views. I can’t say much about the Az statute with a q&a with a lawyer, familiar with Az precedent.

Excerpt-Lott
Police today already have to deal with the “reasonable suspicion” standard all the time in other areas of law enforcement, and most understand very well how this standard limits what they can do. Police know that they can’t pull over drivers for fear that they are smuggling drugs just because they are black. “Reasonable suspicion” requires that the known facts and circumstances are sufficient to convince a person of “reasonable prudence” that a crime has been committed. Obviously in a state such as Arizona, with an estimated half a million illegal immigrants, the vast majority OF illegal aliens are going to be Hispanic. But the reasonableness standard used by Arizona specifically requires something other than just race or national origin.

8 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:21:20pm

re: #1 windsagio

I really can’t wait for the supreme court to get to this law.

don’t hold your breath, in most states persons are required to have ID and present it when challenged…

9 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:22:11pm
while he supported the new immigration law in Arizona he thought it went too far.

I guess it doesn’t go too too far since he still supports it.

10 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:22:42pm

re: #8 brookly red

LA has a local statute requiring ID while in public.

11 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:22:50pm

re: #6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Should do about what? What is it that you’re considering the problem that needs solving?

12 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:22:56pm

re: #6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yes but drums are often made with animal hide.

& When Pinocchio was a donkey someone bought him with the intent to make a drum out of him.

13 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:23:23pm

re: #2 Obdicut

What a waffle. He supports it, yet it goes too far. That makes little sense.

Also, when Tancredo thinks you’re too racist, you really need to check yourself, before things escalate and, before you know it, you wind up in the situation where you wreck yourself.

He wants to look like he’s not a racist, since he’s been called that. So he takes a stand against racial profiling. It’s a common bit of reactive posturing.

14 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:25:19pm

Hmmm… what in particular about the new immigration law did Tancredo support?

15 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:25:22pm

Hey you guys, just because I keep advocating a total police state in all my speech rhetoric doesn’t mean that when you actually try to enact one that I will support it! What do you think I am, as crazy as you nutjobs? - Paraphrased from Tom Tancredo. ;)

Suck it Tom, you asked for it and now you got it, this is really going to help the GOP in the midterms, right?

/My God these people are so transparently stupid it makes you wonder just how screwed up our electorate really is.

16 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:25:41pm

I think allowing a probable cause judgement by police in the case of legal residency is horseshit. Begs the question though, what about other situations where police have authority to judge probable cause. Drunk driving? crime-in-progress? I’m against this law and that annoys my right-wing buddies. Interesting question from a friend earlier.. if we look at it in 5 years and it turns out that really, citizens are not getting screwed over by this, will I change my mind? Answer is yes, if it proves out, then I guess I was wrong. That really annoys people, when you feel strongly about something but present that you might be wrong.

17 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:25:53pm

re: #10 Rightwingconspirator

LA has a local statute requiring ID while in public.

like that… people will scream racism but the fact is the precedent has already been in place for a long time.

18 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:26:18pm

I, personally, want people pulled over for failing to use their turn signals.

And driving under the speed limit when I’m in a hurry.

And playing loud music with the windows rolled down.

And I’d like a pony, while I’m at it.

19 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:26:37pm

re: #15 ausador

/My God these people are so transparently stupid it makes you wonder just how screwed up our electorate really is.

Ding Ding Ding we have a WINNER!

20 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:27:08pm

re: #18 EmmmieG

I, personally, want people pulled over for failing to use their turn signals.

And driving under the speed limit when I’m in a hurry.

And playing loud music with the windows rolled down.

And I’d like a pony, while I’m at it.

Will a Hopey Change Unicorn work instead?

21 philosophus invidius  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:27:27pm

Even Alito will say that this law is unconstitutional.

22 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:27:46pm

re: #10 Rightwingconspirator

That strikes me as simply terrible.


/my prejudices might be showing tho’.

23 palomino  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:27:48pm

What does Tancredo mean when he says, “you look like you should be pulled over?”

24 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:28:03pm

re: #14 marjoriemoon

Hmmm… what in particular about the new immigration law did Tancredo support?

first of all this is not an immigration law, no one attempting to enter the country are challenged. this is an enforcement law nothing more & nothing less.

25 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:28:16pm

I guess racial profiling is to be avoided at all costs.

26 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:28:22pm

what? you mean brown skin doesn’t equal probable cause?

27 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:28:54pm

re: #11 Obdicut

Should do about what? What is it that you’re considering the problem that needs solving?

The crime problem that AZ is having related to being located where AZ is located.

This is an Un-American - Draconian law that should be repealed.

I want to see some ideas about what they should do.

All I’ve heard is legalize drugs (I linked a solid reason yesterday why that may not be an answer) and Bitch-slap people who hire illegals (saw an article today about a French restaurant that is being shut down, everyone was very sad about it)…

I am wonder what AZ can do to stop illegal Mexicans without targeting Mexicans.

My meme is “Don’t bitch without an alternative solution.”

28 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:29:13pm

re: #18 EmmmieG

would you pull over somebody on a
Pulse Jet Bicycle?

BBL

29 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:29:26pm

Sure, but a state drivers license is not accepted as I.D. by itself because it is too easily forged, so how about creating a biometric ID that is practically impossible to forge before creating the law asking you to provide one?

Naw, that would make sense or something, it simply reeks of liberal elitism or something damn close. :p

30 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:30:27pm

re: #29 ausador

Sure, but a state drivers license is not accepted as I.D. by itself because it is too easily forged, so how about creating a biometric ID that is practically impossible to forge before creating the law asking you to provide one?

Naw, that would make sense or something, it simply reeks of liberal elitism or something damn close. :p

national ID, like it or not it is coming.

31 philosophus invidius  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:30:38pm

re: #25 Spare O’Lake

I guess racial profiling is to be avoided at all costs.

So Mexican-Americans are committing a crime by not carrying a birth certificate, while real white Americans don’t need to?

32 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:31:01pm

re: #27 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I haven’t found any statistics showing that the crime problem is actually significant, though. Have you?

My meme is “Don’t bitch without an alternative solution.”

Really? So you can’t criticize any idea, no matter how stupid or bad, unless you can fix it?

So if someone suggests curing cancer by drinking vast quantities of mercury, and you don’t have a better idea, you can’t criticize that idea?

That seems kinda unworkable in real life. I criticize things all the time without alternatives. And it’s a good thing, too.

33 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:31:21pm

re: #25 Spare O’Lake

Considering that its pretty damn ineffective, yes.

34 celticdragon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:31:28pm

re: #31 philosophus invidius

So Mexican-Americans are committing a crime by not carrying a birth certificate, while real white Americans don’t need to?

Think of it as a feature, and not a bug.


/sarcasm

35 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:31:30pm

Talking of offending people, has this been on LGF yet?


Draw Mohammed Day, May 20

36 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:31:39pm

re: #27 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The crime problem that AZ is having related to being located where AZ is located.

This is an Un-American - Draconian law that should be repealed.

I want to see some ideas about what they should do.

All I’ve heard is legalize drugs (I linked a solid reason yesterday why that may not be an answer) and Bitch-slap people who hire illegals (saw an article today about a French restaurant that is being shut down, everyone was very sad about it)…

I am wonder what AZ can do to stop illegal Mexicans without targeting Mexicans.

My meme is “Don’t bitch without an alternative solution.”

Sorry dude, doesn’t fit the narrative. Don’t be asking to solve the real problem.

37 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:32:34pm

re: #32 Obdicut

C’mon, man, are you seriously arguing that there’s no crime problem along the Texas and Arizona border? Really?

38 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:33:10pm

re: #4 JasonA

Nothing new, really. We here in the real world call it “Driving While Black,” and I wonder if you’ve ever tried to do anything about that.

Just curious and not meant to be racist, but have you ever been pulled over for “Driving While Black?”

39 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:33:25pm

I think a few wingnuts are starting to see that nuttery has its consequences. VDARE is in trouble because somebody pulled their funding, fearing a taint that apparently they did not fear before.

[…]
The latest threat, according to Brimelow, is that a big benefactor recently cut off funding for the website, which regularly publishes articles by white supremacists and anti-Semites. The “major foundation,” which Brimelow doesn’t name, helped finance the website since its inception in 1999. “ We’ve lost close to a third of our budget and we’ve been plunged into an immediate cash crisis,” writes Brimelow, a leading anti-immigration activist and author of the best-selling Alien Nation. “Of course, I’m still trying to find out what happened. One explanation I’ve been given is that the Washington D.C. ‘Beltway immigration reform groups’ lobbied against us, claiming that they would be tainted through guilt by association if our donor gave to us as well as them, because of our willingness to take risks and push the Political Correctness envelope.”

[…]

40 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:33:34pm

re: #37 cliffster

C’mon, man, are you seriously arguing that there’s no crime problem along the Texas and Arizona border? Really?

/it’s the tea baggers I tell yah!

41 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:34:22pm

re: #38 Unakite

Just curious and not meant to be racist, but have you ever been pulled over for “Driving While Black?”

No. I have quite a few friends who have, though. Why?

42 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:34:22pm

Just posted a story in the WONDERFUL new linkage, about Arizona grocery store chain that fired 300 out of 1500 workers, because of a Federal Immigration audit. That’s 20% of their workforce. It’s a big number. And all of the fired workers had provided documents.

Charles, since immigration seems to be the “next big thing” could we have an immigration tag in the Linkage?

43 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:34:33pm

re: #28 Ojoe

would you pull over somebody on a
Pulse Jet Bicycle?

BBL

This looks like one of those things that probably will resolve itself a la Darwin.

44 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:34:33pm

re: #39 wrenchwench

hmmm. that’s interesting.

45 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:34:50pm

re: #24 brookly red

first of all this is not an immigration law, no one attempting to enter the country are challenged. this is an enforcement law nothing more & nothing less.

It’s an immigration law inasmuch as it’s targeting immigrants, be they legal or not. Or will they pull over white folks in a Lexus and ask for their proper identification?

46 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:35:06pm

re: #31 philosophus invidius

So Mexican-Americans are committing a crime by not carrying a birth certificate, while real white Americans don’t need to?

The illegals are overwhelmingly latin-Americans. Can one really afford to ignore that if one actually wants to catch the illegals without issuing national identity cards to everyone?

47 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:35:25pm

re: #18 EmmmieG

I, personally, want people pulled over for failing to use their turn signals.

And driving under the speed limit when I’m in a hurry.

And playing loud music with the windows rolled down.

And I’d like a pony, while I’m at it.

NO unicorn??
//

48 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:35:32pm

re: #29 ausador

Sure, but a state drivers license is not accepted as I.D. by itself because it is too easily forged, so how about creating a biometric ID that is practically impossible to forge before creating the law asking you to provide one?

Naw, that would make sense or something, it simply reeks of liberal elitism or something damn close. :p

What, like having all legal citizens register their fingerprints, or retinas, and giving cops on-site scanners?

49 Mark Pennington  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:35:57pm

I noticed this story over at HA a while ago. The comments are pretty amusing. They are so deeply in love with this bill and their reasons for loving it so much aren’t hidden very well. They’re acting similar to birthers…no matter what anyone says or if a Federal Court strikes it down…this law is good and righteous.

50 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:36:30pm

re: #37 cliffster

And, California!

51 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:36:49pm

re: #20 Dark_Falcon

Will a Hopey Change Unicorn work instead?

Beat me to it.
:)

52 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:36:53pm

re: #42 Floral Giraffe

Just posted a story in the WONDERFUL new linkage, about Arizona grocery store chain that fired 300 out of 1500 workers, because of a Federal Immigration audit. That’s 20% of their workforce. It’s a big number. And all of the fired workers had provided documents.


Hmmm. I also wonder how many Hispanics are looking for opportunities to leave the state. If I were Latino and living in Arizona I’d sure be thinking about it. The potential hassle of constantly having to prove your citizenship would be a pain in the ass.

53 palomino  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:36:57pm

The purpose of the bill is to deal with the epidemic of immigrant related crime in Arizona. One problem: no such epidemic exists, at least not in AZ.

54 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:37:07pm

re: #37 cliffster

C’mon, man, are you seriously arguing that there’s no crime problem along the Texas and Arizona border? Really?

Of course not. However, any law that allows an American Citizen to be arrested simply because he looked like an illegal immigrant is completely outrageous.

The phrase “Papers, please” should never be uttered within American borders.

55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:37:14pm

re: #32 Obdicut
This is only anecdotal… I typed in Phoenix

WASHINGTON (CNN) — A bloody war between Mexican drug cartels is no longer solely a south-of-the-border problem, members of Congress said Tuesday at a hearing on the issue.

The violence accompanying those battles has crept into the United States, and is believed to be largely fueled by money and guns from America, said Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Illinois.

“The drugs are coming north, and we’re sending money and guns south,” said Durbin, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime and Drugs. “As a result, these cartels have gained extraordinary power.”

About 90 percent of guns seized in Mexican raids are traced back to the United States, according to the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, he said. About 2,000 firearms cross the border into Mexico daily, according to the Brookings Institution, he added.

The subcommittee held a joint hearing Tuesday on the issue with the Senate Caucus on International Narcotics Control. The hearing focused on ways the United States can assist Mexican President Felipe Calderon’s efforts to combat drugs and violence.

In addition, American communities are seeing an increase in violent crimes related to the Mexican drug trade. In Phoenix, Arizona, in 2008, 366 kidnappings for ransom were reported — more than in any other U.S. city, Durbin said, citing federal statistics. The vast majority of those, he said, were related to Mexican drug cartels.

I’m just saying the cure for this problem is going to be tough as hell, and is going to inconvenience the hell out of a lot of people… and they will be mostly Mexican.

56 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:37:42pm

re: #39 wrenchwench

I think a few wingnuts are starting to see that nuttery has its consequences. VDARE is in trouble because somebody pulled their funding, fearing a taint that apparently they did not fear before.

That’s good news! Not that they won’t survive, or get other funding.

57 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:37:52pm

re: #23 palomino

What does Tancredo mean when he says, “you look like you should be pulled over?”

Politics, schmoozin’, nothing more.

58 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:38:19pm

all neighboring states should pass laws that require people from arizona to prove via documentation that theyre not idiots and or conservatives

59 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:38:58pm

re: #50 Floral Giraffe

And, California!

No way, too much pot being smoked out there for that ;)

60 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:39:47pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Hmmm. I also wonder how many Hispanics are looking for opportunities to leave the state. If I were Latino and living in Arizona I’d sure be thinking about it. The potential hassle of constantly having to prove your citizenship would be a pain in the ass.

I guess it’s a good thing for California to be an expensive place, with a bad economy.
//sort of

61 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:39:55pm

re: #55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

This is only anecdotal… I typed in “Phoenix Kidnappings”…

PIMF…

62 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:40:14pm

re: #29 ausador

Sure, but a state drivers license is not accepted as I.D. by itself because it is too easily forged, so how about creating a biometric ID that is practically impossible to forge before creating the law asking you to provide one?

Naw, that would make sense or something, it simply reeks of liberal elitism or something damn close. :p

Totally, i mean, it’s liberals who want folks to present their ID when, like, voting and stuff. If only the republicans would qui- what? It’s not the liberals who want that? They oppose it? Oh. Huh.

63 palomino  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:40:29pm

re: #57 Unakite

Politics, schmoozin’, nothing more.

Huh?

64 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:40:53pm

re: #54 Dante41

Of course not. However, any law that allows an American Citizen to be arrested simply because he looked like an illegal immigrant is completely outrageous.

The phrase “Papers, please” should never be uttered within American borders.

I was asked for my papers last week. DL, registration, and title.
(I got off with a warning, whew.)

I’ve been asked for ID when using my credit card, writing checks, and don’t even think about getting on an airplane without ID.

Try registering your child for school. Birth certificate and immunization record. That’s not just ID, that’s medical history.

The question is exactly what times do you think it should be illegal to ask for identification?

(This is not a defense of the bill. I’m just pointing out that we are already periodically asked for ID.)

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:40:56pm

OT: Recommended by SFZ’s husband: The Boobquake Cartoon at Something Positive.

Safe for work if you work somewhere reasonably laid back.

66 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:41:46pm

re: #41 JasonA

I’m a little older than some and don’t know everything, but most of the times that I have been pulled over (and it has been more than once), I deserved it. Just curious whether it was deserved or an excuse.

My two cents.

67 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:44:41pm

re: #64 EmmmieG

The other question is: What happens without ID?

68 ShaunP  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:45:16pm

re: #64 EmmmieG

The question is exactly what times do you think it should be illegal to ask for identification?

Any time other than when you initiate the process. Same reason that a cop can’t walk up to you and ask you to empty your pockets; they should not be able to just walk up to you and request identification. It’s a fourth amendment thing…

69 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:45:26pm

Tom Tancredo has a moment of clarity.

70 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:45:36pm

re: #55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

This is only anecdotal… I typed in Phoenix

WASHINGTON (CNN) — A bloody war between Mexican drug cartels is no longer solely a south-of-the-border problem, members of Congress said Tuesday at a hearing on the issue.

The violence accompanying those battles has crept into the United States, and is believed to be largely fueled by money and guns from America, said Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Illinois.

“The drugs are coming north, and we’re sending money and guns south,” said Durbin, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime and Drugs. “As a result, these cartels have gained extraordinary power.”

About 90 percent of guns seized in Mexican raids are traced back to the United States, according to the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, he said. About 2,000 firearms cross the border into Mexico daily, according to the Brookings Institution, he added.

The subcommittee held a joint hearing Tuesday on the issue with the Senate Caucus on International Narcotics Control. The hearing focused on ways the United States can assist Mexican President Felipe Calderon’s efforts to combat drugs and violence.

In addition, American communities are seeing an increase in violent crimes related to the Mexican drug trade. In Phoenix, Arizona, in 2008, 366 kidnappings for ransom were reported — more than in any other U.S. city, Durbin said, citing federal statistics. The vast majority of those, he said, were related to Mexican drug cartels.

I’m just saying the cure for this problem is going to be tough as hell, and is going to inconvenience the hell out of a lot of people… and they will be mostly Mexican.

Dick Durbin can go soak his head. He’s just trying to advance anti-gun legislation. A better approach to dealing with the cartels would be very aggressive DEA action in the border areas coupled with FBI efforts to dismantle their stateside organization. But, as we’ve learned before, there’s limits as to how much you can do to fight drug smuggling. I’ll let Glen Frey take it from here:

Youtube Video

71 Macha  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:45:58pm

At the risk of getting booed for being way over on the left (I’m not) I thought this was an interesting essay on some of the history in Ariz. I apologize if this has been posted in prior threads. It is a day or more old.

care2.com

72 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:46:26pm

re: #54 Dante41

Of course not. However, any law that allows an American Citizen to be arrested simply because he looked like an illegal immigrant is completely outrageous.

The phrase “Papers, please” should never be uttered within American borders.

I’m asked for an ID (is that the equivalent of “papers?”) whenever I:
By beer.
Cash a check.
Use a credit card.
Apply for a mortgage.
GET STOPPED BY THE POLICE FOR A TRAFFIC VIOLATION.

Cut the histrionics.

73 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:46:26pm

re: #68 ShaunP

Any time other than when you initiate the process. Same reason that a cop can’t walk up to you and ask you to empty your pockets; they should not be able to just walk up to you and request identification. It’s a fourth amendment thing…


Yes and no. I was pulled over for failing to completely stop at the light. The cop had a legitimate reason to pull me over, but I certainly did not initiate it.

74 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:46:40pm

re: #17 brookly red

like that… people will scream racism but the fact is the precedent has already been in place for a long time.

Except that before a CDL was plenty acceptable ID and brown truck drivers weren’t required to bring their birth certificates with them to the weigh station. But you’re being deliberately obtuse, carry on.

75 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:47:44pm

re: #72 Unakite

I’m asked for an ID (is that the equivalent of “papers?”) whenever I:
By beer.
Cash a check.
Use a credit card.
Apply for a mortgage.
GET STOPPED BY THE POLICE FOR A TRAFFIC VIOLATION.

Cut the histrionics.

Uh. Those are not equal comparisons to be being stopped and asked for proof of citizenship.

76 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:47:51pm

OT, but an earth day video that really sums up the feelings of many who get it.

Youtube Video

77 ShaunP  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:48:02pm

re: #73 EmmmieG

Yes and no. I was pulled over for failing to completely stop at the light. The cop had a legitimate reason to pull me over, but I certainly did not initiate it.

You initiated it by committing a crime (innocuous as it may be)…

78 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:48:08pm

Okay…this has to be some kind of joke…Tancredo? Really?

79 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:48:45pm

re: #69 Gus 802

Tom Tancredo has a moment of clarity.

Bullshit… I haven’t been able to actually find a link to any quotes of this… so right now it’s anecdotal… but I had a family member attend the 4-15 tea party tax day stuff in Denver, and the family member said that Tancredo suggested that we declare war on Mexico… and the family member also claimed a whole bunch of people booed.

But, last week, when I tried to search for such information, nothing came up. I can’t see how this wouldn’t be reported by someone. Then again, I searched for it once, that very evening after the event, and haven’t tried since.

Maybe someone else heard about this or has info?

80 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:48:45pm

re: #72 Unakite

I’m asked for an ID (is that the equivalent of “papers?”) whenever I:
By beer.
Cash a check.
Use a credit card.
Apply for a mortgage.
GET STOPPED BY THE POLICE FOR A TRAFFIC VIOLATION.

Cut the histrionics.

Agreed. We need ID’s that are hard to counterfeit. That would help things a good bit.

81 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:49:02pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Hmmm. I also wonder how many Hispanics are looking for opportunities to leave the state. If I were Latino and living in Arizona I’d sure be thinking about it. The potential hassle of constantly having to prove your citizenship would be a pain in the ass.

Hmm, maybe that’s the point. May also be why legal taxpayers are leaving high tax states like New Jersey and California. Even illegal aliens have freedom of choice.

82 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:49:17pm

re: #72 Unakite

I’m asked for an ID (is that the equivalent of “papers?”) whenever I:
By beer.
Cash a check.
Use a credit card.
Apply for a mortgage.
GET STOPPED BY THE POLICE FOR A TRAFFIC VIOLATION.

Cut the histrionics.

You are properly asked for ID in order to do something. The problem arises when you are challenged just for trying to be someone.

83 ShaunP  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:49:42pm

re: #78 darthstar

Okay…this has to be some kind of joke…Tancredo? Really?

Yeah, this guy…

84 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:50:01pm

Federal authorities already had the ability to ask for proof of citizenship. The Arizona bill is supposed to give that to state and local authorities too. If that were a good thing, it would have been done long ago. What was done a while back was training authorities at the county level to check immigration status of people who are already in custody for something. That’s happening in some California jurisdictions, and in Arizona too, I believe. And I don’t think anybody has a problem with that.

85 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:50:12pm

re: #82 Decatur Deb

You are properly asked for ID in order to do something. The problem arises when you are challenged just for trying to be someone.

This is a wonderful quote.

86 HoosierHoops  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:50:15pm

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

OT: Recommended by SFZ’s husband: The Boobquake Cartoon at Something Positive.

Safe for work if you work somewhere reasonably laid back.

Everybody knows that beautiful Boobs can cause an earthquake..Why advertise it?
*wink*

87 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:50:26pm

re: #82 Decatur Deb

You are properly asked for ID in order to do something. The problem arises when you are challenged just for trying to be someone.

Most of the times we think of dictatorial states asking for papers, it was someone trying to do something. Usually, escape to a place of freedom.

88 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:50:34pm

re: #45 marjoriemoon

It’s an immigration law inasmuch as it’s targeting immigrants, be they legal or not. Or will they pull over white folks in a Lexus and ask for their proper identification?

oh please… and every cop in the state is white and a klan member…

the fact is that being in the country illegally is against the law & if the federal government did it’s job this would never have happened.

89 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:50:55pm

re: #72 Unakite

I’m asked for an ID (is that the equivalent of “papers?”) whenever I:
By beer.
Cash a check.
Use a credit card.
Apply for a mortgage.
GET STOPPED BY THE POLICE FOR A TRAFFIC VIOLATION.

Cut the histrionics.

But what if every person who demanded your ID appeared to you to be a jackbooted, goose-stepping nazi who enjoyed making you squirm?

90 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:51:03pm

re: #72 Unakite

I’m asked for an ID (is that the equivalent of “papers?”) whenever I:
By beer.
Cash a check.
Use a credit card.
Apply for a mortgage.
GET STOPPED BY THE POLICE FOR A TRAFFIC VIOLATION.

Cut the histrionics.

they can’t….it’s part of the schtick…hyperbole

91 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:51:11pm

re: #46 Spare O’Lake

The illegals are overwhelmingly latin-Americans. Can one really afford to ignore that if one actually wants to catch the illegals without issuing national identity cards to everyone?

So better that we hassle a few innocent Latin Americans than equally inconvience everyone by giving out national identity cards?

92 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:51:33pm

re: #63 palomino

Huh?

Sorry, I meant that even Tancredo is a politician and can change his spots if it suites him.

93 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:51:48pm

re: #74 goddamnedfrank

Except that before a CDL was plenty acceptable ID and brown truck drivers weren’t required to bring their birth certificates with them to the weigh station. But you’re being deliberately obtuse, carry on.

that is just pure BS and you know it.

94 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:51:54pm

re: #84 wrenchwench

Federal authorities already had the ability to ask for proof of citizenship. The Arizona bill is supposed to give that to state and local authorities too. If that were a good thing, it would have been done long ago. What was done a while back was training authorities at the county level to check immigration status of people who are already in custody for something. That’s happening in some California jurisdictions, and in Arizona too, I believe. And I don’t think anybody has a problem with that.

That’s the key right there. When they’re already in custody for something. As opposed to the random check under so called “reasonable suspicion.”

95 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:52:22pm

re: #74 goddamnedfrank

Except that before a CDL was plenty acceptable ID and brown truck drivers weren’t required to bring their birth certificates with them to the weigh station. But you’re being deliberately obtuse, carry on.

what are you talking about? are you under some odd impression that the truck driver in Arizona was handcuffed and harassed before this law was passed?

96 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:52:45pm

re: #89 Spare O’Lake

But what if every person who demanded your ID appeared to you to be a jackbooted, goose-stepping nazi who enjoyed making you squirm?

In that case I’d recommend you see a therapist (not you personally, Brookly).

97 freetoken  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:52:56pm

re: #82 Decatur Deb

You are properly asked for ID in order to do something. The problem arises when you are challenged just for trying to be someone.

You’d think that would be obvious, but apparently there are people here who don’t care.

98 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:53:01pm

re: #86 HoosierHoops

Everybody knows that beautiful Boobs can cause an earthquake..Why advertise it?
*wink*

Now that is hilarious.

I recently told the GF that I thanked her for being physical proof of Divine agency.

She asked me how that was.

I told her it was obvious that G-d stopped what he was doing one day, made her breasts, said “I still got it!” and got back to whatever urgent G-d business He had.

99 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:53:21pm

re: #95 Aceofwhat?

what are you talking about? are you under some odd impression that the truck driver in Arizona was handcuffed and harassed before this law was passed?

don’t bring facts into it…

100 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:53:28pm

re: #88 brookly red

oh please… and every cop in the state is white and a klan member…

the fact is that being in the country illegally is against the law & if the federal government did it’s job this would never have happened.

You’re not that stupid, brookly…you know damn well this isn’t because the federal government didn’t act fast enough. These assholes would have passed a law more extreme than the government’s policies regardless. It’s all about trying to make the President look bad. This is a partisan bill meant to rally the wingnuts so they’ll come out and vote in November. Nobody expects the bill to stand.

101 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:53:46pm

re: #95 Aceofwhat?

what are you talking about? are you under some odd impression that the truck driver in Arizona was handcuffed and harassed before this law was passed?

He indeed was so harassed before the law passed.

102 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:53:55pm

re: #93 brookly red

that is just pure BS and you know it.

Right.

103 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:54:41pm

re: #89 Spare O’Lake

But what if every person who demanded your ID appeared to you to be a jackbooted, goose-stepping nazi who enjoyed making you squirm?

Dude, enough traffic cops swagger up to you with that “I have you now!” attitude as it is. I am not trying to disrespect police, but we all know that police departments, in addition to good cops, are full of those crew-cut, petty sadists, with control fantasies.

104 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:54:56pm

re: #22 windsagio

I guess I just accept it as part of urban living, in an automobile city. Plus for me to use my 2nd amendment rights, as per California law, I need id to carry the gun. So to get around and as perhaps as a part of my job I need “my papers”.

Lets say the Az law falls. Then I’m curious just how far Az should go to protect it’s border from illegal immigration and worse, illegal entry with intent to commit crimes.

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:55:05pm

When three people tell you you’re drunk, lie down. When Tom Tancredo tells you your anti-illegal-immigration bill is too extreme, believe him.

106 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:55:14pm

re: #100 darthstar

You’re not that stupid, brookly…you know damn well this isn’t because the federal government didn’t act fast enough. These assholes would have passed a law more extreme than the government’s policies regardless. It’s all about trying to make the President look bad. This is a partisan bill meant to rally the wingnuts so they’ll come out and vote in November. Nobody expects the bill to stand.

really? and illegal immigration was never an issue before?

107 DoubleBarrellBunnyAnger  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:55:46pm

You can’t spell crazy without R-AZ

108 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:55:55pm

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

When three people tell you you’re drunk, lie down. When Tom Tancredo tells you your anti-illegal-immigration bill is too extreme, believe him.

Yeah, that was like when Iran commented that the Taliban was extremist.

109 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:56:03pm

re: #97 freetoken

You’d think that would be obvious, but apparently there are people here who don’t care.

Not many, I think.

110 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:56:09pm

re: #75 Gus 802

Uh. Those are not equal comparisons to be being stopped and asked for proof of citizenship.

Uh, it’s kind of like when I hand him/her my driver’s license, that is kind of proof of citizenship, since it was issued by the state I LIVE in.

111 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:56:13pm

the Hispanio community has brought this situation with them, after decades of illegal status something has to break…regardless of the backlash against this bill, something drastic needs to be done to secure the border….tough titty…sovereignty is far more important than some temporary bill that might put someone out

112 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:56:16pm

re: #84 wrenchwench

Federal authorities already had the ability to ask for proof of citizenship. The Arizona bill is supposed to give that to state and local authorities too. If that were a good thing, it would have been done long ago. What was done a while back was training authorities at the county level to check immigration status of people who are already in custody for something. That’s happening in some California jurisdictions, and in Arizona too, I believe. And I don’t think anybody has a problem with that.

Lets be fair I have a bone to pick with

“If that were a good thing, it would have been done long ago.”

If you ask me that’s more or less the conservative rallying cry at times.

We shouldn’t be afraid of change only because its a change.

We should be afraid of change for logical reasons like how f***ing stupid and 4th amendment violating this particular change is….

113 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:56:36pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude, enough traffic cops swagger up to you with that “I have you now!” attitude as it is. I am not trying to disrespect police, but we all know that police departments, in addition to good cops, are full of those crew-cut, petty sadists, with control fantasies.

happened to me! Guy accused me of going over double the speed limit (which of course would mean a ticket if not reckless driving) and then let me off with a warning, because I was actually not going very fast, but I was in a fast car right around when the bars close. real tough guy, real bruiser, knew he had nothing, but just gave me shit for five minutes before letting me go.

114 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:57:03pm

re: #99 brookly red

don’t bring facts into it…

i didn’t even write it correctly. he WAS taken into custody before this law passed…by the ICE.

but like you said. facts = inconvenient.

115 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:57:03pm

re: #93 brookly red

that is just pure BS and you know it.

Are you reading the same blog. This was covered in some depth ummm yesterday?

116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:57:31pm

re: #107 DoubleBarrellBunnyAnger

Okay, dammit. I’m a conservative.

That was funny as hell.

117 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:57:44pm

*SIGH*
WHY did I Google California Sanctuary Cities.
Mah haid hurtz now.

118 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:57:50pm

re: #23 palomino

What does Tancredo mean when he says, “you look like you should be pulled over?”

Tancredo knows, and so does everyone in Arizona.

119 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:57:54pm

re: #102 goddamnedfrank

Right.

That happened before this law passed. Puzzling.

120 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:58:08pm

re: #113 WindUpBird

happened to me! Guy accused me of going over double the speed limit (which of course would mean a ticket if not reckless driving) and then let me off with a warning, because I was actually not going very fast, but I was in a fast car right around when the bars close. real tough guy, real bruiser, knew he had nothing, but just gave me shit for five minutes before letting me go.

there are some 2 million people in jail right now… 99% of em say they are innocent.

121 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:58:38pm

re: #117 Floral Giraffe

*SIGH*
WHY did I Google California Sanctuary Cities.
Mah haid hurtz now.

????

Qu’est ce que c’est?

122 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:58:57pm

re: #104 Rightwingconspirator

I guess I just accept it as part of urban living, in an automobile city. Plus for me to use my 2nd amendment rights, as per California law, I need id to carry the gun. So to get around and as perhaps as a part of my job I need “my papers”.

Lets say the Az law falls. Then I’m curious just how far Az should go to protect it’s border from illegal immigration and worse, illegal entry with intent to commit crimes.

Really, it’s not AZ’s job. It’s the Federal Government’s. And they should go farther than they have, with more personnel and more facilities. But not with state personnel.

123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:59:08pm

re: #117 Floral Giraffe

*SIGH*
WHY did I Google California Sanctuary Cities.
Mah haid hurtz now.

Now! Here’s an idea.

AZ could offer to buy a bus/airplane ticket to any sanctuary city for any illegal.

124 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:59:15pm

re: #100 darthstar

You’re not that stupid, brookly…you know damn well this isn’t because the federal government didn’t act fast enough. These assholes would have passed a law more extreme than the government’s policies regardless. It’s all about trying to make the President look bad. This is a partisan bill meant to rally the wingnuts so they’ll come out and vote in November. Nobody expects the bill to stand.

bullshit…pure bullshit….you folks have become crazed with people that don’t like BO…too bad, but you’re off into a netherworld of criticism that rivals that of BO himself…you have reverse OBS….hahaha!

125 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:59:23pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude, enough traffic cops swagger up to you with that “I have you now!” attitude as it is. I am not trying to disrespect police, but we all know that police departments, in addition to good cops, are full of those crew-cut, petty sadists, with control fantasies.

Not to mention, we HAVE to balance the budget!
Go write more tickets!

126 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:59:25pm

re: #95 Aceofwhat?

what are you talking about? are you under some odd impression that the truck driver in Arizona was handcuffed and harassed before this law was passed?

Dude… he was… the story took place like the day before the law passed.

littlegreenfootballs.com

127 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:59:28pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude, enough traffic cops swagger up to you with that “I have you now!” attitude as it is. I am not trying to disrespect police, but we all know that police departments, in addition to good cops, are full of those crew-cut, petty sadists, with control fantasies.

They call me Sir.

128 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:59:36pm

Here in Lower Alabama I would normally be given a couple days to produce my driver’s license if I leave it at home. However, if I want service I usually must have a shirt and shoes.

129 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:59:47pm

re: #110 Unakite

Uh, it’s kind of like when I hand him/her my driver’s license, that is kind of proof of citizenship, since it was issued by the state I LIVE in.

That’s not the point. The point is about allowing the police to stop people at random and demand proof of citizenship. I go to a liquor store and purchase liquor I would expect to be carded at time (although I’m a little too old for that now). If I’m walking down the street I don’t expect to be stopped by the authorities and asked for proof of citizenship. That is what Mexican-Americans will expect under this law in Arizona. If anyone breaks the law first then it’s reasonable to ask for identification. Walking down the street and being stopped for “looking like a Mexican” is not reasonable.

130 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:00:01pm

re: #53 palomino

The article skips over the actual number of convicted criminals that are here illegally. Crime overall may be down, but the article is silent on how much of that crime is perpetrated by illegal immigrants.

131 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:00:04pm

re: #111 albusteve

the Hispanio community has brought this situation with them, after decades of illegal status something has to break…regardless of the backlash against this bill, something drastic needs to be done to secure the border…tough titty…sovereignty is far more important than some temporary bill that might put someone out

Arizona might just find out what Prince William County in Maryland found out: that economics wins in the end. sfgate.com

If illegals simply start leaving Arizona, and their economy crumbles in the process? I will LOL

132 ShaunP  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:00:33pm

re: #111 albusteve

the Hispanio community has brought this situation with them, after decades of illegal status something has to break…regardless of the backlash against this bill, something drastic needs to be done to secure the border…tough titty…sovereignty is far more important than some temporary bill that might put someone out

So all of a sudden, the constitution goes out the window?

133 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:00:36pm

re: #115 LudwigVanQuixote

Are you reading the same blog. This was covered in some depth ummm yesterday?

so what…some of were not here for that exchange…ummm we have other stuff to do

134 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:01:35pm

re: #121 LudwigVanQuixote

???

Qu’est ce que c’est?

No habla…

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:01:40pm

re: #37 cliffster

C’mon, man, are you seriously arguing that there’s no crime problem along the Texas and Arizona border? Really?

No one’s arguing that, although as I posted yesterday, AZ does, at least as of 2007, seem to have a crime profile that is roughly in line with a number of other states not on the Mexico border.

Now, new question. What does this new law make possible that makes the potential erosion of civil rights worthwhile? What do we expect it to do for AZ?

136 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:02:02pm

re: #117 Floral Giraffe

*SIGH*
WHY did I Google California Sanctuary Cities.
Mah haid hurtz now.

I would argue that sanctuary cities need to go. Unless someone can prove to me otherwise. They conflict with Federal law.

137 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:02:14pm

re: #123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Now! Here’s an idea.

AZ could offer to buy a bus/airplane ticket to any sanctuary city for any illegal.

Yer begging for a downding there….

138 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:02:15pm

re: #122 wrenchwench

It’s the states job the very minute the Fed’s fail. Both are responsible for public safety. As I see it any legit policeman can enforce any legit law as needed. Anything else pretends there is something wrong with either the law officer or the law. Dissonance there.

139 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:02:16pm

re: #120 brookly red

there are some 2 million people in jail right now… 99% of em say they are innocent.

haha yeah, so I totally was going 75 in a 35 just like the cop said even though it’s physically impossible for my car to get to 75 from the turn I took

If a cop says he clocks you going double the speed limit and then lets you off with a warning? Cop’s lying.

140 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:02:17pm

re: #125 Floral Giraffe

Not to mention, we HAVE to balance the budget!
Go write more tickets!

Indeedy… Just remember they don’t have quotas, the check is in the mail and I homeopathy works.

141 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:02:21pm

re: #94 Gus 802

That’s the key right there. When they’re already in custody for something. As opposed to the random check under so called “reasonable suspicion.”

As they say on Fark, THIS. There is a difference in having ID asked for things that could affect the person in a big way, and having to show it to any police officer who decides that he doesn’t like the looks of you.

And here’s the rub: the ID you could show in all of those previous situations is not a proof of citizenship. Only a Birth Certificate or a Federal ID like a passport is. How many of you go driving down the road with those in your car?

142 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:02:28pm

re: #115 LudwigVanQuixote

Are you reading the same blog. This was covered in some depth ummm yesterday?

I hate to break it to you but my perception of reality is not based on blogs…

143 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:03:01pm

re: #131 WindUpBird

Arizona might just find out what Prince William County in Maryland found out: that economics wins in the end. [Link: www.sfgate.com…]

If illegals simply start leaving Arizona, and their economy crumbles in the process? I will LOL

fine…the economy will even out as time goes by and if cheap, legal, foreign labor is needed…they know where to find it

144 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:03:10pm

re: #114 Aceofwhat?

i didn’t even write it correctly. he WAS taken into custody before this law passed…by the ICE.

but like you said. facts = inconvenient.

ICE already had the power that this bill seeks to give to state and local authorities.

145 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:03:13pm

re: #134 Floral Giraffe

No habla…

It’s French for what is that. I looked it up myself. That would be one example of SF really making some bad policy.

146 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:03:49pm

re: #143 albusteve

fine…the economy will even out as time goes by and if cheap, legal, foreign labor is needed…they know where to find it

I don’t think contractors in AZ will see it that way ;-)

147 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:03:57pm

re: #126 jamesfirecat

Dude… he was… the story took place like the day before the law passed.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

yeah, i wrote it wrong. Ergo, it’s not a result of the new law.

I don’t like the new law, mind you. But this guy’s situation isn’t directly related to the new law.

Someone’s CDL oughta be good enough.

148 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:03:58pm

re: #142 brookly red

I hate to break it to you but my perception of reality is not based on blogs…

It was the subject of a thread here with the various news stories attached to it. It wasn’t some little comment made in the middle of a 1000 post thread.

149 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:04:10pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

The Kidnapping Capitol (for ransom) of the US is Phoenix.

150 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:04:18pm

re: #132 ShaunP

So all of a sudden, the constitution goes out the window?

of course not, except the part where the feds will secure our border, that’s long gone

151 webevintage  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:04:24pm

re: #141 Dante41

How many of you go driving down the road with those in your car?

Hell, I can’t even put my hand on my BC without a trip to the bank because I keep stuff like that in the safety deposit box.

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:04:31pm

re: #53 palomino

The purpose of the bill is to deal with the epidemic of immigrant related crime in Arizona. One problem: no such epidemic exists, at least not in AZ.

Well, gosh darn! I heard it was the Wild West all over again, with people cowering in their Sun City homes, afraid to go to the Thrifty’s for fear of their very lives!

//OK, I’ll behave.

153 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:04:32pm

By the way…day two with my new HP “envy” netbook…not a bad little unit. The screen’s a bit small, but ctrl-fn-f11 (f keys are dual purpose for playing media) gets rid of the browser address and menu bars and I can see a decent sized screen. Command prompt available via running cmd at the start menu, though there is no icon for that. 128 gigs free out of the box (why there are 20-30 gigs of used space is beyond me). 1 gig of memory seems to be sufficient. Keyboard is a little small, but F and J have little raised bars, so typing by feel is easy enough if I don’t overreach.

It found my wifi printer on the network, downloaded and installed the drivers, so that’s all set up. Two USB ports and a built-in ethernet jack means I’ll be able to connect it to my laptop to use the dvd drive for installing software I don’t want to have to download.

iPad? It might be more absorbant, but I think this little thing will be fine for what I need…and I’ll use it primarily for traveling, so I won’t have to carry a full sized laptop with me.

Windows 7 is a concern, but I figure I’ll whack the fucker in a few months and install RedHat or SUSE on it and turn it into a real machine…unless I get used to win7 and decide to keep it.

154 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:04:40pm

re: #144 wrenchwench

ICE already had the power that this bill seeks to give to state and local authorities.

Exactly. As opposed to “this guy is a victim of the new law”.

155 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:04:45pm

re: #136 Gus 802

I would argue that sanctuary cities need to go. Unless someone can prove to me otherwise. They conflict with Federal law.

I heartily agree. But, I don’t think the “tipping point” has been reached.
Meaningful immigration reform is 20+ years overdue and would eliminate the need for the sanctuaries.

156 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:05:07pm

re: #82 Decatur Deb

You are properly asked for ID in order to do something. The problem arises when you are challenged just for trying to be someone.

I agree, and the law was just signed. I’m not sure that the law challenges people just for “being someone” ( but I’m not a lawyer). I think it allows them (if I’m wrong please correct me) to check their status if they are stopped for some violation, not just for “looking funny.” For example, if they are stopped for a traffic violation and can’t produce a legal ID. I’m sorry, but I think that the accusation that people are being “challenged just for trying to be someone.

” is ridiculous.

157 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:05:16pm

re: #146 WindUpBird

I don’t think contractors in AZ will see it that way ;-)

to bad eh?….time for a new business paradigm

158 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:05:20pm

re: #143 albusteve

fine…the economy will even out as time goes by and if cheap, legal, foreign labor is needed…they know where to find it


it ain’t cheap if it’s legal

159 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:05:24pm

re: #153 darthstar

oh, and two fingers on the glide-pad turns it into a scroller (kind of like a mac)

160 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:05:27pm

re: #139 WindUpBird

haha yeah, so I totally was going 75 in a 35 just like the cop said even though it’s physically impossible for my car to get to 75 from the turn I took

If a cop says he clocks you going double the speed limit and then lets you off with a warning? Cop’s lying.

so you say “but I was in a fast car right around when the bars close” . and now you say you say your car is not fast… I would ask for ID in this case.

161 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:06:02pm

re: #148 LudwigVanQuixote

It was the subject of a thread here with the various news stories attached to it. It wasn’t some little comment made in the middle of a 1000 post thread.

Sure, but that poor dude was not arrested because of this law.

162 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:06:32pm

re: #141 Dante41

As they say on Fark, THIS. There is a difference in having ID asked for things that could affect the person in a big way, and having to show it to any police officer who decides that he doesn’t like the looks of you.

And here’s the rub: the ID you could show in all of those previous situations is not a proof of citizenship. Only a Birth Certificate or a Federal ID like a passport is. How many of you go driving down the road with those in your car?

Immigrants with Green Cards are already required by law to carry Green Cards on their person. No one carries a BC and it’s useless unless you were born in the USA. If I showed them my BC they’d throw me in the slammer. ;) Of course I do have citizenship papers, a DL, blonde hair and a moderate New Jersey accent.

163 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:06:40pm

re: #140 LudwigVanQuixote

Indeedy… Just remember they don’t have quotas, the check is in the mail and I homeopathy works.

Actually, our State refund check arrived promptly.
It even cleared!
I admit to being shocked!

164 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:06:52pm

re: #129 Gus 802

That’s not the point. The point is about allowing the police to stop people at random and demand proof of citizenship. I go to a liquor store and purchase liquor I would expect to be carded at time (although I’m a little too old for that now). If I’m walking down the street I don’t expect to be stopped by the authorities and asked for proof of citizenship. That is what Mexican-Americans will expect under this law in Arizona. If anyone breaks the law first then it’s reasonable to ask for identification. Walking down the street and being stopped for “looking like a Mexican” is not reasonable.

While we are at it, the documents asked for are beyond just normal identification. No one carries their birth certificate around. Any ID request that police make that goes beyond a drivers licence or equivalent on a routine stop is simply insane.

165 thequis  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:06:53pm

re: #38 Unakite

Just curious and not meant to be racist, but have you ever been pulled over for “Driving While Black?”

I have. Actually, I was once pulled over for “Biking while Black.”

166 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:06:56pm

re: #153 darthstar

i am jealous (note that i resisted saying ‘envious’)

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:07:09pm

re: #81 Unakite

Hmm, maybe that’s the point. May also be why legal taxpayers are leaving high tax states like New Jersey and California. Even illegal aliens have freedom of choice.

Be real careful about jumping from ‘Latino’ to ‘illegal aliens’. That can get misread very easily.

168 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:07:25pm

re: #152 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, gosh darn! I heard it was the Wild West all over again, with people cowering in their Sun City homes, afraid to go to the Thrifty’s for fear of their very lives!

//OK, I’ll behave.

Please don’t behave. This is a topic that deserves some vitriol.

169 Mark Pennington  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:07:34pm

re: #131 WindUpBird

Arizona might just find out what Prince William County in Maryland found out: that economics wins in the end. [Link: www.sfgate.com…]

If illegals simply start leaving Arizona, and their economy crumbles in the process? I will LOL

I will LOL with you.

170 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:07:49pm

re: #157 albusteve

to bad eh?…time for a new business paradigm

re: #160 brookly red

so you say “but I was in a fast car right around when the bars close” . and now you say you say your car is not fast… I would ask for ID in this case.

Oh, it’s fast, but it can’t reach that speed from where I turned, even if I redlined it. it’s a GTI, not a Pagani Zonda. ;-) I was going the speed limit, and LVQ’s point stands. Some cops want to be cowboys.

171 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:08:03pm

re: #163 Floral Giraffe

Actually, our State refund check arrived promptly.
It even cleared!
I admit to being shocked!

OK, Floral, you can’t shock me like that OK?

172 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:08:04pm

re: #165 thequis

I have. Actually, I was once pulled over for “Biking while Black.”

dude not so much proper respect for that…

173 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:08:09pm

re: #145 LudwigVanQuixote

It’s French for what is that. I looked it up myself. That would be one example of SF really making some bad policy.

Well, you must’ve spelled it wrong, or Babblefish sucks!
I did try!

174 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:08:17pm

re: #158 SpaceJesus

it ain’t cheap if it’s legal

and those 600k houses outside of Tucson are actually worth about 200k….fuck the bubble headed threesomes

175 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:08:31pm

re: #152 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, gosh darn! I heard it was the Wild West all over again, with people cowering in their Sun City homes, afraid to go to the Thrifty’s for fear of their very lives!

//OK, I’ll behave.

It’s really a little surprising that a state with a large tourist industry would try to make itself look more unwelcoming and more dangerous than it really is. Florida has been knocked for hiding its crime from potential tourists.

176 jaunte  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:08:38pm

re: #162 Gus 802
This isn’t the same law, is it?

On May 21, [2008] officers were given the authority to question criminal suspects about their citizenship status and contact federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents if they suspect a suspect is in the United States illegally.

Since then, Spencer said, “Stolen vehicles have gone down 29 percent. That’s a double-digit increase. Another thing that’s gone down, which is quite unusual, our priority one or emergency calls for service, have decreased 10 percent.”

“We’re connecting this decrease with the implementation of the immigration policies and the (employer sanctions) legislation that took effect in January,” he said. “So we think it is having a deterrent effect. Now, you add our new and improved policy which allows our officers to contact ICE…”
ktar.com

177 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:08:46pm

re: #166 Aceofwhat?

i am jealous (note that i resisted saying ‘envious’)

They’re less than 300 bucks at Costco. My lovely wife got it for me as a b-day present.

178 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:08:57pm

re: #138 Rightwingconspirator

It’s the states job the very minute the Fed’s fail. Both are responsible for public safety. As I see it any legit policeman can enforce any legit law as needed. Anything else pretends there is something wrong with either the law officer or the law. Dissonance there.

“As I see it” doesn’t equal a legal opinion. Sadly, sometimes. I learned when my mom was in law school that the law has nothing to do with logic or reason.

179 Mark Pennington  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:09:08pm

re: #132 ShaunP

So all of a sudden, the constitution goes out the window?

Yeah, you didn’t think all of that talk about loving the constitution so much was more than patriotic words, did you?

180 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:09:20pm

re: #131 WindUpBird

Arizona might just find out what Prince William County in Maryland found out: that economics wins in the end. [Link: www.sfgate.com…]

If illegals simply start leaving Arizona, and their economy crumbles in the process? I will LOL

Correction. Prince William County is in Northern Virginia.
:)

181 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:09:28pm

re: #82 Decatur Deb

You are properly asked for ID in order to do something. The problem arises when you are challenged just for trying to be someone.

And to follow up, I shouldn’t be asked for an ID just to do do something.

182 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:09:41pm

re: #156 Unakite

I agree, and the law was just signed. I’m not sure that the law challenges people just for “being someone” ( but I’m not a lawyer). I think it allows them (if I’m wrong please correct me) to check their status if they are stopped for some violation, not just for “looking funny.” For example, if they are stopped for a traffic violation and can’t produce a legal ID. I’m sorry, but I think that the accusation that people are being “challenged just for trying to be someone.

” is ridiculous.

We’ll have to see how it plays out, if the courts let it play at all.

183 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:09:47pm

re: #173 Floral Giraffe

Well, you must’ve spelled it wrong, or Babblefish sucks!
I did try!

Babelfish does suck. LVQ spelled it perfectly!

184 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:10:04pm

re: #181 Unakite

And to follow up, I shouldn’t be asked for an ID just to do do something.

um

185 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:10:05pm

re: #170 WindUpBird

Oh, it’s fast, but it can’t reach that speed from where I turned, even if I redlined it. it’s a GTI, not a Pagani Zonda. ;-) I was going the speed limit, and LVQ’s point stands. Some cops want to be cowboys.

and some violators want to scream victim… you wanna tell me next that they pulled you over for your save the whales bumper sticker? man up pay the fine.

186 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:10:18pm

These numbers may well be correct. They are hot buttons, but if accurate the facts are the facts.

PHOENIX — Crime is ever present, but new numbers give a glimpse into how much is linked to illegal immigrants.

According to statistics obtained by CBS 5 News, 19 percent of the inmates in Maricopa County Jail are suspected illegal immigrants being held on an immigration or U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement hold.

In Pima County, the number of inmates suspected of being illegal immigrants is around 10 percent.

In Pinal County, the number of inmates suspected of being illegal immigrants is around 30 percent.

187 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:10:26pm

re: #180 Varek Raith

Correction. Prince William County is in Northern Virginia.
:)

GODDAMMIT XD

And I should have known that, since I read two articles on it yesterday ayiee

188 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:10:34pm

re: #173 Floral Giraffe

Well, you must’ve spelled it wrong, or Babblefish sucks!
I did try!

en.wiktionary.org

OK I dropped the hyphen.

189 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:10:58pm

re: #183 Aceofwhat?

Babelfish does suck. LVQ spelled it perfectly!

Which is a rarity for me sometimes…

190 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:11:04pm

re: #185 brookly red

and some violators want to scream victim… you wanna tell me next that they pulled you over for your save the whales bumper sticker? man up pay the fine.

hahaha are you even reading what I said, I was going the speed limit

191 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:11:12pm

re: #181 Unakite

And to follow up, I shouldn’t be asked for an ID just to do do something.

you shouldn’t be allowed to “do do” anything…we’re trying to run a civilized country here/

192 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:11:34pm

re: #95 Aceofwhat?

what are you talking about? are you under some odd impression that the truck driver in Arizona was handcuffed and harassed before this law was passed?

Yes, I’m saying he was handcuffed and harassed as a result of the passage of the bill and the xenophobic blood frenzy that it generated. The word you’re looking for is signed, no the bill was not yet signed into law, but it was passed, and Joe Arpaio brand law enforcement doesn’t give one rat’s ass about waiting for some gutless governor’s signature, or for the law to actually take effect. It’s their hot bodies and they do what they want.

Also, the fact that they did this before the formalities were in place is a very bad omen going forward.

193 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:11:44pm

re: #181 Unakite

And to follow up, I shouldn’t be asked for an ID just to do do something.

*votes 800000000 times for himself for president*

194 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:11:48pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

Which is a rarity for me sometimes…

Don’t say i’m not there for you when you’re right!!

195 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:12:17pm

re: #187 WindUpBird

GODDAMMIT XD

And I should have known that, since I read two articles on it yesterday ayiee

:)
I’m in Manassas, which is an independent city in that county.

196 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:12:37pm

re: #190 WindUpBird

hahaha are you even reading what I said, I was going the speed limit

that is what you said… the government apparently did not agree…

I fought the law & the law won.

197 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:12:44pm

re: #193 SpaceJesus

*votes 800000000 times for himself for president*

Eh, I’ve never been asked for ID at the polls.

198 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:12:52pm

re: #176 jaunte

This isn’t the same law, is it?

I thought it was a Federal law. I think that’s an old Phoenix law:

On May 21, officers were given the authority to question criminal suspects about their citizenship status and contact federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents if they suspect a suspect is in the United States illegally.

Emphasis mine. See, I have no problem with that being required of criminal suspects. As opposed to what I said earlier regarding random checking.

199 researchok  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:12:58pm

What to do? Arizona (and the feds) ignored immigration enforcement for any number of reasons. That changed when large numbers of illegals crossing the border made crime rather than work their priority.

AZ and other border states have begged the feds (Dems, GOP) for immigration law enforcement. Nothing.

No matter how you cut, something has to be done. Simply doing nothing and allowing crime which has escalated to violence, home invasions, kidnapping and murder committed by criminal illegals is not an option (and no, not all illegals are criminals). What goes unreported is the level of support in the (legal immigrant/citizen) Hispanic community for the law. Why? Because Hispanics are by far the group most victimized by the criminal element.

This is a mess. The real problem isn’t the AZ bill. The courts will sort all that out. The problem is the mayhem- and non response by critics of the bill- that has resulted in the tsunami of crime in the border states.

200 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:13:04pm

re: #174 albusteve

and those 600k houses outside of Tucson are actually worth about 200k…fuck the bubble headed threesomes

The market is doing that to the builders, and unfortunately, to the folks who bought them.

201 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:13:22pm

re: #192 goddamnedfrank

Yes, I’m saying he was handcuffed and harassed as a result of the passage of the bill and the xenophobic blood frenzy that it generated. The word you’re looking for is signed, no the bill was not yet signed into law, but it was passed, and Joe Arpaio brand law enforcement doesn’t give one rat’s ass about waiting for some gutless governor’s signature, or for the law to actually take effect. It’s their hot bodies and they do what they want.

Also, the fact that they did this before the formalities were in place is a very bad omen going forward.

do you know what the ICE is?

ok, i admit, that’s rhetorical.

how ‘bout you go learn what the ICE is and then come back to the immigration discussion. the bill and this poor dude were unrelated.

202 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:13:26pm

If you were in a foreign country would you be really, really, pissed off if you were asked to show your passport?

203 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:13:51pm

re: #85 LudwigVanQuixote

This is a wonderful quote.

No, it’s not. And I’m surprised that you would agree that is is OK to as for an ID just to “do” something. History tells us that is wrong.

204 jaunte  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:13:57pm

re: #198 Gus 802

I’m not sure what the Phoenix PD rules are about what qualifies a person as a criminal suspect.

205 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:14:13pm

re: #197 JasonA


do you live in alaska

206 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:14:46pm

re: #184 SpaceJesus

um

As the saying goes you can’t s*** without a chit!

207 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:14:55pm

re: #176 jaunte

This isn’t the same law, is it?

Interesting.

On May 21, officers were given the authority to question criminal suspects about their citizenship status and contact federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents if they suspect a suspect is in the United States illegally.

They can ask, but if they generate suspicions from asking, they still need to contact ICE, the proper authority for immigration issues.

208 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:15:44pm

re: #205 SpaceJesus

do you live in alaska

No.

I’m curious to see where you’re going with this.

209 HoosierHoops  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:15:46pm

re: #171 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, Floral, you can’t shock me like that OK?

Kind regards Ludwig…I know you are just going to hate me..But I have moved into the Variable light speed camp for Physics..Which makes me a heretic!
*wink*

210 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:15:56pm

re: #202 Spare O’Lake

If you were in a foreign country would you be really, really, pissed off if you were asked to show your passport?

/oh how dare you!

211 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:16:03pm

re: #204 jaunte

I’m not sure what the Phoenix PD rules are about what qualifies a person as a criminal suspect.

I imagine it would be a misdemeanor or higher. Of course some would argue that it shouldn’t be required for misdemeanors. That would complicate things.

212 andres  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:16:15pm

re: #129 Gus 802

That’s not the point. The point is about allowing the police to stop people at random and demand proof of citizenship. I go to a liquor store and purchase liquor I would expect to be carded at time (although I’m a little too old for that now). If I’m walking down the street I don’t expect to be stopped by the authorities and asked for proof of citizenship. That is what Mexican-Americans will expect under this law in Arizona. If anyone breaks the law first then it’s reasonable to ask for identification. Walking down the street and being stopped for “looking like a Mexican” is not reasonable.

Not only Mexicans. All Hispanics will be affected.

213 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:16:17pm

re: #186 Rightwingconspirator

These numbers may well be correct. They are hot buttons, but if accurate the facts are the facts.

PHOENIX — Crime is ever present, but new numbers give a glimpse into how much is linked to illegal immigrants.

According to statistics obtained by CBS 5 News, 19 percent of the inmates in Maricopa County Jail are suspected illegal immigrants being held on an immigration or U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement hold.

In Pima County, the number of inmates suspected of being illegal immigrants is around 10 percent.

In Pinal County, the number of inmates suspected of being illegal immigrants is around 30 percent.

Yikes. It is clearly a big issue. I would support the new law being amended to instead provide for mandatory checking of immigration status for those arrested for other offenses.

214 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:16:19pm

re: #199 researchok

The problem is the Federal Government’s lack of enforcing the control of the border. And, other laws. But I do not think that the illegal immigration/immigrant issue can be resolved until we control our borders.

215 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:16:19pm

Today’s quote from shitmydadsays:
“Stop trying so hard. He doesn’t like you. Jesus, don’t kiss an ass if it’s in the process of shitting on you.”

216 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:17:20pm

re: #192 goddamnedfrank

Yes, I’m saying he was handcuffed and harassed as a result of the passage of the bill and the xenophobic blood frenzy that it generated. The word you’re looking for is signed, no the bill was not yet signed into law, but it was passed, and Joe Arpaio brand law enforcement doesn’t give one rat’s ass about waiting for some gutless governor’s signature, or for the law to actually take effect. It’s their hot bodies and they do what they want.

Also, the fact that they did this before the formalities were in place is a very bad omen going forward.

All excellent points.

The real issue here is the GOP meme of fear of the other really strongly getting played.

I am not someone who feels that people here illegally are in some special protected class. I am all for protecting the border and making certain that these people are not exploited. However the only really effective way to do that is to fine the hell out of businesses that exploit these folks so that one, it is no longer profitable to do the exploitation and two, the super cheap jobs dry up.

That said, it seems utterly obvious to me that this is about a lot more than just immigration. This is about being scared of white America getting invaded and lashing out at an easy and not white target. It is sickening and I repeat in the strongest terms, that anyone who does not see the very obvious parallels to the early think 1930, Nazi party is blind.

217 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:17:24pm

re: #192 goddamnedfrank

Yes, I’m saying he was handcuffed and harassed as a result of the passage of the bill and the xenophobic blood frenzy that it generated. The word you’re looking for is signed, no the bill was not yet signed into law, but it was passed, and Joe Arpaio brand law enforcement doesn’t give one rat’s ass about waiting for some gutless governor’s signature, or for the law to actually take effect. It’s their hot bodies and they do what they want.

Also, the fact that they did this before the formalities were in place is a very bad omen going forward.

The incident had nothing to do with the new law. At all. Law wasn’t passed, different governing body. Totally unrelated. Why are you pursuing this?

218 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:17:39pm

re: #202 Spare O’Lake

If you were in a foreign country would you be really, really, pissed off if you were asked to show your passport?

I would be short of patience if I were a citizen there.

219 webevintage  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:17:46pm

re: #202 Spare O’Lake

If you were in a foreign country would you be really, really, pissed off if you were asked to show your passport?

No, but if I was a Mexican-American I would be.

220 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:17:51pm

re: #202 Spare O’Lake

If you were in a foreign country would you be really, really, pissed off if you were asked to show your passport?

No. A tourist being asked to show his passport to prove he has a legal right to be in a country is perfectly legit.

However, being asked to show your passport when you are a citizen of said country, with the penalty of arrest if he can’t present it…

re: #162 Gus 802

Immigrants with Green Cards are already required by law to carry Green Cards on their person. No one carries a BC and it’s useless unless you were born in the USA. If I showed them my BC they’d throw me in the slammer. ;) Of course I do have citizenship papers, a DL, blonde hair and a moderate New Jersey accent.

Yes, immigrants are required by law to have their green cards on their person at all times. However, citizens are not. And thus lies the problem.

221 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:18:04pm

re: #199 researchok

AZ and other border states have begged the feds (Dems, GOP) for immigration law enforcement. Nothing.

10,000 additional members of the Border Patrol and 700 miles of fence aren’t “nothing.” They aren’t enough, but they aren’t nothing.

222 andres  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:18:19pm

re: #130 Rightwingconspirator

The article skips over the actual number of convicted criminals that are here illegally. Crime overall may be down, but the article is silent on how much of that crime is perpetrated by illegal immigrants.

It’s my turn to call Bullshit.

223 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:18:28pm

re: #217 cliffster

The incident had nothing to do with the new law. At all. Law wasn’t passed, different governing body. Totally unrelated. Why are you pursuing this?

don’t bring facts to a knife fight…

224 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:18:32pm

re: #208 JasonA

No.

I’m curious to see where you’re going with this.

do you live in some small village with only one polling station and your brother runs it

225 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:18:47pm

re: #196 brookly red

that is what you said… the government apparently did not agree…

I fought the law & the law won.

what are you talking about? Cop let me go with no ticket, because he had nothing. You don’t let a guy go without a ticket after he was clocked at reckless speeds in a residential neighborhood. He walked up to my car, insisted he clocked me driving at a speed which would likely result in my arrest, then let me go scot free after being a haughty turd for a couple minutes. Because he was acting like a tough guy.

So since you’re apparently high, drunk, or getting your junk tickled under the desk and are unable to focus on this really simple and obvious concept, this conversation is terminated :)

226 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:19:08pm

re: #202 Spare O’Lake

If you were in a foreign country would you be really, really, pissed off if you were asked to show your passport?

If you were a US citizen but happened to have Mestizo blood would you be really, really pissed off if you were asked to show proof of citizenship as the result of a random stop?

227 TampaKnight  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:19:08pm

It’d be easier to go after the root cause of illegal immigration- employers who hire illegal immigrants.

Force the hand of the employers and the demand to come here illegally is gone.

228 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:19:11pm

re: #221 wrenchwench

10,000 additional members of the Border Patrol and 700 miles of fence aren’t “nothing.” They aren’t enough, but they aren’t nothing.

correct. they are something. a giant waste of money.

229 ShaunP  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:19:54pm

re: #202 Spare O’Lake

If you were in a foreign country would you be really, really, pissed off if you were asked to show your passport?

No, but if I was legally in the country and was asked the same question; I’d be pissed.

For the record, I could care less how this inconveniences illegal immigrants. I’m more concerned how this affects citizens…

230 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:19:55pm

re: #227 TampaKnight

It’d be easier to go after the root cause of illegal immigration- employers who hire illegal immigrants.

Force the hand of the employers and the demand to come here illegally is gone.


*waives magic wand*

*capitalism disappears*

231 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:19:55pm

Good grief. Are we really making the, “cops are arrogant assholes” argument?

232 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:20:16pm
233 researchok  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:20:17pm

re: #221 wrenchwench

10,000 additional members of the Border Patrol and 700 miles of fence aren’t “nothing.” They aren’t enough, but they aren’t nothing.

I shall rephrase: “Very little if anything has been accomplished”.

The proof is in the pudding.

234 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:20:28pm

re: #231 cliffster

Good grief. Are we really making the, “cops are arrogant assholes” argument?

No. Why? Do you see that? I’m not seeing that.

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:20:37pm

re: #149 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Kidnapping Capitol (for ransom) of the US is Phoenix.

Do you have further info? Who kidnaps whom, and for what purpose?

236 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:20:41pm

re: #129 Gus 802

That’s not the point. The point is about allowing the police to stop people at random and demand proof of citizenship. I go to a liquor store and purchase liquor I would expect to be carded at time (although I’m a little too old for that now). If I’m walking down the street I don’t expect to be stopped by the authorities and asked for proof of citizenship. That is what Mexican-Americans will expect under this law in Arizona. If anyone breaks the law first then it’s reasonable to ask for identification. Walking down the street and being stopped for “looking like a Mexican” is not reasonable.

OK. I read the headlines but don’t live in Arizona. I thought the law allowed the police to check the citizenship status of people who had already broken the law. I didn’t know that the law “allow(ed) the police to stop people at random and demand proof of citizenship.” If that’s the case then I am against it too. Is that the case???

237 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:20:47pm

re: #234 Gus 802

No. Why? Do you see that? I’m not seeing that.

Several comments, yes.

238 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:20:51pm

re: #214 Floral Giraffe

The problem is the Federal Government’s lack of enforcing the control of the border. And, other laws. But I do not think that the illegal immigration/immigrant issue can be resolved until we control our borders.

Agreed. The continual inflow makes it impossible to solve the problems.

239 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:21:03pm

re: #225 WindUpBird

Let me come in here and share with you the fact that many cops are power-fetish scum.

240 TampaKnight  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:21:27pm

re: #230 SpaceJesus

*waives magic wand*

*capitalism disappears*

You’re implying that our economy is built soley off of illegal labor?

241 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:21:27pm

re: #228 SpaceJesus

correct. they are something. a giant waste of money.

The “virtual” fence was a giant waste of money, but the actual fence is not, and 10,000 members of the Border Patrol are worth their weight in gold (or non-hybrid seeds./)

242 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:21:31pm

re: #223 brookly red

don’t bring facts to a knife fight…

I knew two old farts in Two Dot, Montana (real place, not just a Hank Jr song) who got into a fight at the Two Dot Bar…one, a WWII vet with a wooden leg(both are WWII vets, actually), got his shotgun out of his car. The other guy got in his car, and before WWII vet could get off a shot, backed into him, breaking his prosthetic. When he was arrested, he said, “He shouldn’t have brought a gun to a car fight.”

243 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:21:52pm

re: #201 Aceofwhat?

do you know what the ICE is?

ok, i admit, that’s rhetorical.

how ‘bout you go learn what the ICE is and then come back to the immigration discussion. the bill and this poor dude were unrelated.

Is ICE pulling over random brown truck drivers at weigh stations now? Damn that was a weak and dishonest dodge. Do me a favor, if you’re going to be a condescending asshole at least try to be informative or at least stay on topic. ICE had absolutely nothing to do with why that guy got harassed and you damned well know it.

244 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:22:14pm

re: #236 Unakite

OK. I read the headlines but don’t live in Arizona. I thought the law allowed the police to check the citizenship status of people who had already broken the law. I didn’t know that the law “allow(ed) the police to stop people at random and demand proof of citizenship.” If that’s the case then I am against it too. Is that the case???

The wording is something like “reasonable cause.” I’d have to look it up again. But no, you don’t have to break a law first. All they need is reasonable suspicion.

245 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:22:19pm

re: #232 brookly red

People have been banned for comments very close to that one.

246 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:22:20pm

re: #231 cliffster

I am.

Because many are.

Get jerked around and spend $1000 and 2 hours in the back of a cop car because some cop couldn’t be bothered to find out if he was wrong, and come back to me.

247 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:22:21pm
248 jaunte  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:22:25pm

re: #235 SanFranciscoZionist

Do you have further info? Who kidnaps whom, and for what purpose?

This article blames the drug cartels:

Many of the victims of these crimes are illegal aliens or involved in the drug trade somehow, but innocent victims have been caught up in the violence as well.
latina.com
249 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:22:49pm
250 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:23:00pm

So… what the hell constitutes “reasonable suspicion” for being an illegal alien?

251 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:23:25pm

re: #240 TampaKnight

You’re implying that our economy is built soley off of illegal labor?

as someone who spent his entire undergrad working in restaurants, im saying that employers will find a way as will the workers from across the border. you can make as many laws as you want, but profit seeking will always find a way.

252 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:23:28pm

re: #226 Gus 802

If you were a US citizen but happened to have Mestizo blood would you be really, really pissed off if you were asked to show proof of citizenship as the result of a random stop?

Damn straight I would! Tough shit for me, though, it’s the price I will have to pay for the actions of the illegals.

253 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:23:38pm

Tancredo now says he was misquoted. And he just loves Arizona’s new law.

254 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:23:41pm

re: #236 Unakite

OK. I read the headlines but don’t live in Arizona. I thought the law allowed the police to check the citizenship status of people who had already broken the law. I didn’t know that the law “allow(ed) the police to stop people at random and demand proof of citizenship.” If that’s the case then I am against it too. Is that the case???

no

255 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:23:49pm

re: #225 WindUpBird

what are you talking about? Cop let me go with no ticket, because he had nothing. You don’t let a guy go without a ticket after he was clocked at reckless speeds in a residential neighborhood. He walked up to my car, insisted he clocked me driving at a speed which would likely result in my arrest, then let me go scot free after being a haughty turd for a couple minutes. Because he was acting like a tough guy.

So since you’re apparently high, drunk, or getting your junk tickled under the desk and are unable to focus on this really simple and obvious concept, this conversation is terminated :)

apparently you are just an asshole… the cops let you go cause you did nothing wrong. Same as the cops in AZ will do… but you are still an asshole.

256 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:24:00pm

re: #202 Spare O’Lake

If you were in a foreign country would you be really, really, pissed off if you were asked to show your passport?

If I were in my own country I sure would.

257 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:24:01pm

re: #250 Varek Raith

So… what the hell constitutes “reasonable suspicion” for being an illegal alien?


having brown skin, having a name that ends in a vowel or s

258 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:24:03pm

re: #250 Varek Raith

So… what the hell constitutes “reasonable suspicion” for being an illegal alien?

dark skin, straw cowboy hat, fluency in Spanish…

259 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:24:15pm

re: #236 Unakite

OK. I read the headlines but don’t live in Arizona. I thought the law allowed the police to check the citizenship status of people who had already broken the law. I didn’t know that the law “allow(ed) the police to stop people at random and demand proof of citizenship.” If that’s the case then I am against it too. Is that the case???

Seems all they need is “probable cause” to suspect someone is an illegal.

azcentral.com

260 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:24:25pm

re: #209 HoosierHoops

Kind regards Ludwig…I know you are just going to hate me..But I have moved into the Variable light speed camp for Physics..Which makes me a heretic!
*wink*

Attempts best Jewish guilt trip…

Oy, I was going to go over to my mother’s because it is her birthday and she hasn’t seen me in months, with a box of her favorite cookies. But after reading that, I threw up on the box of cookies and ruined it. Now I will be late and mom will think I hate her. What did I do to deserve such heresy?

Actually, what happened to cause inflation (in the cosmic sense) is not well understood. I can leave room for something really wonky happening before a symmetry was broken and fixed c.

However, I am pretty certain it has been fixed for quite some time. Changing c means changing the permeability and permitivity of free space - not to mention alpha. If that happened, nuclear and electronic orbits would not obtain as they do and would have entirely different bands. There would be no chemistry as we know it and no spectra as we know it in the distant past. Yet all the bands line up for all the known elements out to a very long time ago.

261 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:24:26pm

re: #40 brookly red

/it’s the tea baggers I tell yah!

They do seem like some seriously shifty types when you look at them on T.V….

262 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:24:30pm

re: #253 Charles

Tancredo now says he was misquoted. And he just loves Arizona’s new law.

Tancredo is a fucking prick. There. I said it.

263 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:24:32pm

re: #253 Charles

Tancredo now says he was misquoted. And he just loves Arizona’s new law.

Seriously? Oh, dear God in Heaven..

264 TampaKnight  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:24:37pm

re: #253 Charles

Tancredo now says he was misquoted. And he just loves Arizona’s new law.

He had an unfortunate slip of open minded judgment.

265 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:24:39pm

re: #250 Varek Raith

They hold up this color swatch, see…

266 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:24:57pm

re: #250 Varek Raith

So… what the hell constitutes “reasonable suspicion” for being an illegal alien?

Tentacles.

267 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:25:05pm

re: #232 brookly red

a few of those drones with the hellfire missiles might help…

I actually agree, partially. I’d like to see if we could ID some of the drug traffic heading north. Not vehicles carrying illegals (I don’t want people massacred), but drug carriers. Blow up a small number of them, and I think that would have a positive effect.

268 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:25:05pm

re: #202 Spare O’Lake

If you were in a foreign country would you be really, really, pissed off if you were asked to show your passport?

If I was a legal resident in the country, the answer would be yes.

269 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:25:12pm

re: #253 Charles

New poll must’ve come in.

270 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:25:24pm

re: #243 goddamnedfrank

Is ICE pulling over random brown truck drivers at weigh stations now? Damn that was a weak and dishonest dodge. Do me a favor, if you’re going to be a condescending asshole at least try to be informative or at least stay on topic. ICE had absolutely nothing to do with why that guy got harassed and you damned well know it.

ICE demanded that he show his birth certificate. ICE is not governed by the new law. Are there any other very basic facts that you need my help with? What’s to dodge? You’re wrong on this point. It’s not complicated.

271 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:25:37pm

re: #266 Decatur Deb

Tentacles.

Great…now I’m fucked. There goes my vacation to Arizona.

272 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:25:42pm

re: #245 wrenchwench

People have been banned for comments very close to that one.

273 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:25:47pm

re: #219 webevintage

No, but if I was a Mexican-American I would be.

yes but too bad…it’s a crisis and someone will no doubt be put out, but it’s a good thing in the long run….the bill will be juiced up as best as possible to protect US citizens….it has nothing to do or resembles 1930s Germany…that’s over the top fear mongering

274 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:25:56pm

re: #246 windsagio

I am.

Because many are.

Get jerked around and spend $1000 and 2 hours in the back of a cop car because some cop couldn’t be bothered to find out if he was wrong, and come back to me.

Well, that sucks. Sorry to hear that.

275 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:26:04pm

re: #253 Charles

sadder, but it makes more sense…

276 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:26:09pm

re: #243 goddamnedfrank

You are wrong.

3TV caught up with Abdon after he was released from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement office in central Phoenix. He and his wife, Jackie, are still upset about what happened to him.
277 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:26:12pm

re: #236 Unakite

OK. I read the headlines but don’t live in Arizona. I thought the law allowed the police to check the citizenship status of people who had already broken the law. I didn’t know that the law “allow(ed) the police to stop people at random and demand proof of citizenship.” If that’s the case then I am against it too. Is that the case???

Here’s some wording:

Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

azleg.gov

and

Requires officials and agencies to reasonably attempt to determine the immigration status of a person involved in a lawful contact where reasonable suspicion exists regarding the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.

azleg.gov

278 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:26:19pm

re: #269 windsagio

New poll must’ve come in.

100% of Glenn Becks surveyed said Tancredo must be mistaken.

279 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:26:26pm

re: #274 cliffster

haha, disarming.

Its a very personal subject to me >>

280 andres  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:26:27pm

re: #136 Gus 802

I would argue that sanctuary cities need to go. Unless someone can prove to me otherwise. They conflict with Federal law.

Agree.

re: #149 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Kidnapping Capitol (for ransom) of the US is Phoenix.

And Maricopa is the county with most unresolved crimes. So?

re: #156 Unakite

I agree, and the law was just signed. I’m not sure that the law challenges people just for “being someone” ( but I’m not a lawyer). I think it allows them (if I’m wrong please correct me) to check their status if they are stopped for some violation, not just for “looking funny.” For example, if they are stopped for a traffic violation and can’t produce a legal ID. I’m sorry, but I think that the accusation that people are being “challenged just for trying to be someone.

” is ridiculous.

The law allows police officers to ask for documentation to anyone they “reasonably” suspect is an illegal immigrant. Not as part of another violation. Just by looking.

And the law authorizes common citizens to sue the crap out of the Police Department if a police doesn’t “reasonably” suspect of someone being an illegal immigrant.

281 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:26:29pm

re: #241 wrenchwench

The “virtual” fence was a giant waste of money, but the actual fence is not, and 10,000 members of the Border Patrol are worth their weight in gold (or non-hybrid seeds./)


youre not gonna stop this with some fence

282 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:26:34pm

re: #253 Charles

Tancredo now says he was misquoted. And he just loves Arizona’s new law.

So his five minutes of spine were crushed by GOP high command. If only Az had a real maverick who would buck the system…

283 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:26:36pm

re: #227 TampaKnight

It’d be easier to go after the root cause of illegal immigration- employers who hire illegal immigrants.

Force the hand of the employers and the demand to come here illegally is gone.

I disagree the “root cause” is employers who hire illegal immigrants. I think the root cause is that being in the US illegally has better prospects for prosperity, than staying elsewhere. The incentive is for a better life, if not for you, then for your kids. But, we’re not going to be able to “fix” the countries that the illegal immigrants come from. So, we must fix our country.

284 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:26:40pm

re: #250 Varek Raith

So… what the hell constitutes “reasonable suspicion” for being an illegal alien?

Well our “experts” can tell based on the way they dress.

No really!

Stop laughing!

285 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:26:49pm

re: #250 Varek Raith

So… what the hell constitutes “reasonable suspicion” for being an illegal alien?

Well, police are going to be given training on that very question. Guess we’ll just have to see…

286 Mark Pennington  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:26:51pm

re: #219 webevintage

No, but if I was a Mexican-American I would be.

I would have this painted on my car daring them to stop me.

Image: slide_6385_84870_large.jpg?1272315518295

287 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:27:04pm

re: #253 Charles

Tancredo now says he was misquoted. And he just loves Arizona’s new law.

OK That makes more sense now.

288 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:27:08pm

So, how would they identify illegal C.eh.N.eh.D.eh.ns???
/
:)

289 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:27:11pm

re: #278 darthstar

I was thinking is “If you dislike this law would you have liked Tancredo anwyays?”

100% came back as ‘F-NO!’

290 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:27:16pm

re: #267 Dark_Falcon

This is a repost: I’d like to see if we could ID some of the drug traffic heading north. Not vehicles carrying illegals (I don’t want people massacred), but drug carriers. Blow up a small number of them, and I think that would have a positive effect.

Again, I do not, repeat not, support blowing up vehicles carrying illegal immigrants. Such a thing would be utterly barbarous.

291 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:27:18pm

re: #256 SanFranciscoZionist

If I were in my own country I sure would.

Right, me too. But why be pissed off at the cop? You should be pissed off at the illegals whose actions have created this awful situation.

292 justaminute  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:27:19pm

If we were successful in getting Hispanic labor to return to Mexico and come here and get Visa’s to work; whats to stop them from leaving when their Visa is up? Put those ankle bracelet’s on them like parolees? How large of a bureaucracy are we going to have to keep track of them and process requests of employers? They probably will have to be investigated too.

293 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:27:35pm

re: #267 Dark_Falcon

I actually agree, partially. I’d like to see if we could ID some of the drug traffic heading north. Not vehicles carrying illegals (I don’t want people massacred), but drug carriers. Blow up a small number of them, and I think that would have a positive effect.

Personally, I think we should give one or two of the things to the Mexican Government. The ability to bring the fist of God down on the leaders of the Cartels just might swing the the battle in Calderon’s favor.

294 Mark Pennington  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:28:04pm

re: #253 Charles

Tancredo now says he was misquoted. And he just loves Arizona’s new law.

haha! Walter was right.

295 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:28:12pm

re: #281 SpaceJesus

youre not gonna stop this with some fence

The only way to stop it is to dry up the money. Take out the businesses that exploit these folks and you solve the issue. Of course, I wonder just how many politicians would really go for that given how much of their money comes from such places.

296 brookly red  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:28:14pm

oh I just can’t deal with this… let me check in tomorrow or whatever.

297 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:28:16pm

re: #276 wrenchwench

You are wrong.

thank you.

Besides, this poor dude is not necessary as an example to understand that this new law is not helpful.

Using him as an example will only make others think that we don’t get it.

298 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:28:32pm

re: #281 SpaceJesus

youre not gonna stop this with some fence

A barrier without firepower support is just a timing device.

299 researchok  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:28:41pm

re: #283 Floral Giraffe

I disagree the “root cause” is employers who hire illegal immigrants. I think the root cause is that being in the US illegally has better prospects for prosperity, than staying elsewhere. The incentive is for a better life, if not for you, then for your kids. But, we’re not going to be able to “fix” the countries that the illegal immigrants come from. So, we must fix our country.

Agreed. The real problem aren’t the illegals who cross the border to work. The real problem is the increasing number of illegals who come here to commit crimes.

300 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:28:49pm

re: #267 Dark_Falcon

I actually agree, partially. I’d like to see if we could ID some of the drug traffic heading north. Not vehicles carrying illegals (I don’t want people massacred), but drug carriers. Blow up a small number of them, and I think that would have a positive effect.

Umm… how do you tell a van carrying drugs from a van carrying illegals from a few thousand feet up?

301 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:29:10pm

re: #283 Floral Giraffe

I disagree the “root cause” is employers who hire illegal immigrants. I think the root cause is that being in the US illegally has better prospects for prosperity, than staying elsewhere. The incentive is for a better life, if not for you, then for your kids. But, we’re not going to be able to “fix” the countries that the illegal immigrants come from. So, we must fix our country.

Well in that context, more GOP fiscal mismanagement will certainly help create a Mexico like economy and the problem as you see it will get fixed.

302 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:29:13pm

re: #245 wrenchwench

People have been banned for comments very close to that one.

It got deleted, quickly!

303 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:29:21pm

re: #298 Decatur Deb

A barrier without firepower support is just a timing device.

Great…now we have to buy condoms from the Pentagon?

304 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:29:49pm

re: #281 SpaceJesus

youre not gonna stop this with some fence

Some fence makes it easier to have an effect. I have seen parts of the border that had NO fence. Not even a piece of string. Now there’s some fence.

305 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:30:09pm

re: #288 Varek Raith

So, how would they identify illegal C.eh.N.eh.D.eh.ns???
/
:)

Bump into them. If they apologize, ya gott’em.

306 Lidane  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:30:14pm

Son of a bitch. Remember that new abortion law in OK that the governor just vetoed? His veto got overridden in the House:

Oklahoma House Overrides Abortion Restrictions Vetoes

Without discussion or debate, House members voted 81-14 to override the veto of a bill requiring women to undergo an ultrasound and listen to a detailed description of the fetus before getting an abortion.

They voted 84-12 to override a veto of legislation that prohibits pregnant women from seeking damages if physicians withhold information or provide inaccurate information about their pregnancy. Supporters had said that legislation was aimed at preventing women from discriminating against fetuses with disabilities.

So not only are women going to be forced to get an ultrasound against their will, but they also can’t sue the doctors if they’re lied to about their pregnancy.

Nice, Oklahoma. Real nice. Assholes.

307 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:30:15pm

re: #280 andres

The law allows police officers to ask for documentation to anyone they “reasonably” suspect is an illegal immigrant. Not as part of another violation. Just by looking.

And the law authorizes common citizens to sue the crap out of the Police Department if a police doesn’t “reasonably” suspect of someone being an illegal immigrant.

My understanding is that the law only allows officers to ask for ADDITIONAL documentation if they have reasonable suspicion of another crime, i.e. the same standard required to search your car without your consent.

Do you think i’ve paraphrased the law incorrectly?

(i still don’t support it, btw, but it’s important to me to understand it correctly)

308 Mark Pennington  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:30:57pm

re: #291 Spare O’Lake

Right, me too. But why be pissed off at the cop? You should be pissed off at the illegals whose actions have created this awful situation.

Actually, they should be pissed off at the politicians who wrote and passed the racial profiling bill.

309 HoosierHoops  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:31:00pm

re: #209 HoosierHoops

Kind regards Ludwig…I know you are just going to hate me..But I have moved into the Variable light speed camp for Physics..Which makes me a heretic!
*wink*


I know this is a war…I have wondered about this..Why Am I being a heretic about light speed? Let’s do a though experiment just like Einstein..
Everybody knows a black hole has so much gravity that light can’t escape…We know this right? So how fucking fast do you think light was moving when the whole universe’s mass was at one single point smaller than the eye can see? How fast was light traveling then? I believe as mass expanded the speed of light increased..I know I may be the stupidest person on earth..But I’m buying into the mass vs. Speed of light thing..

310 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:31:00pm

re: #302 Floral Giraffe

It got deleted, quickly!

My 249 should also go, as I hit quote instead of reply.

311 ShaunP  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:31:31pm

re: #291 Spare O’Lake

Right, me too. But why be pissed off at the cop? You should be pissed off at the illegals whose actions have created this awful situation.

Not pissed off at the politicians that couldn’t find a better solution?

312 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:31:39pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

Be real careful about jumping from ‘Latino’ to ‘illegal aliens’. That can get misread very easily.

Thanks, I agree. This one was carefully worded (I hope), and even serious comments can be misread. I understand the point of the original post, but my point is if the borders had been controlled better this might not be a problem (or as big a problem). Maybe it takes a state like Arizona to enact this law to finally get D.C.’s attention.

313 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:31:44pm

re: #290 Dark_Falcon

This is a repost: I’d like to see if we could ID some of the drug traffic heading north. Not vehicles carrying illegals (I don’t want people massacred), but drug carriers. Blow up a small number of them, and I think that would have a positive effect.

Again, I do not, repeat not, support blowing up vehicles carrying illegal immigrants. Such a thing would be utterly barbarous.

Once again, how do we tell one from the other when we’re viewing them from a drone several thousand feet up?

314 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:31:54pm

re: #295 LudwigVanQuixote

The only way to stop it is to dry up the money. Take out the businesses that exploit these folks and you solve the issue. Of course, I wonder just how many politicians would really go for that given how much of their money comes from such places.

I think you’re talking about tens of thousands of businesses and millions of employees. Talk about creating a police state!

315 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:32:03pm

re: #300 jamesfirecat

Umm… how do you tell a van carrying drugs from a van carrying illegals from a few thousand feet up?

You have to have solid advance intel. One thing you could use is thermal imaging, which can pick up the heat from people in a vehicle and thus distinguish it from a similar vehicle carrying drugs. If it were carrying both, the order would be ‘hold fire’ of course.

316 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:32:16pm

re: #258 darthstar

dark skin, straw cowboy hat, fluency in Spanish…

That would be about it.

What about the blond hair and blue eyed immigrants from the former U.S.S.R. states? Will they be pulling them over for “looking slavic?”

317 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:32:20pm

re: #270 Aceofwhat?

ICE demanded that he show his birth certificate. ICE is not governed by the new law. Are there any other very basic facts that you need my help with? What’s to dodge? You’re wrong on this point. It’s not complicated.

No, the local cops put the cuff on him first, for no other reason than his lack of a birth certificate. Then they gave him to ICE, who released him when his wife showed up with it. This is exactly how the AZ law is designed to work. It had been passed, it was only awaiting signature. The cops didn’t care. Again, he was not arrested for any other reason than the lack of a certificate. He would not have been in custody otherwise because he broke no law. You cannot blame ICE for this.

318 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:32:25pm

re: #308 beekiller

Actually, they should be pissed off at the politicians who wrote and passed the racial profiling bill.

the American citizens have a legitimate right to be pissed off….as for the rest, I really don’t care

319 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:32:42pm

re: #224 SpaceJesus

do you live in some small village with only one polling station and your brother runs it

No, I live in a city of about 200k on the Bronx border. All I have to do is sign the damn register and I’m in.

320 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:32:45pm

re: #302 Floral Giraffe

It got deleted, quickly!

and for once i didn’t requote it! wo-hoo! i’m learning!

321 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:32:55pm

re: #295 LudwigVanQuixote

The only way to stop it is to dry up the money. Take out the businesses that exploit these folks and you solve the issue. Of course, I wonder just how many politicians would really go for that given how much of their money comes from such places.


i wouldn’t really say theyre exploiting them. paying a prep cook 3 bucks an hour in a restaurant stateside is like paying him 3 times more than he’d make in mexico. it’s a damn good deal for him, and us. if you actually had to pay him minimum wage, nearly every restaurant would go under.

322 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:33:15pm

re: #290 Dark_Falcon

Even loads of drugs are hauled by “mules” who may be coerced by threats to their families or something. No extra-judicial killings are warranted.

323 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:33:51pm

re: #293 Dante41

Personally, I think we should give one or two of the things to the Mexican Government. The ability to bring the fist of God down on the leaders of the Cartels just might swing the the battle in Calderon’s favor.

I’d happily offer the drones as support for Mexico, but they should stay under US control.

324 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:33:52pm

re: #310 darthstar

My 249 should also go, as I hit quote instead of reply.

I was a “good doobie” and went back & reported it.

325 jaunte  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:33:52pm

re: #311 ShaunP

Not pissed off at the politicians that couldn’t find a better solution?

I’m pissed off at the wealthy families in Mexico who have monopolized the money-making opportunities there to the point that their poorer population has to move to another country for a decent life.

326 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:33:52pm

re: #304 wrenchwench

Some fence makes it easier to have an effect. I have seen parts of the border that had NO fence. Not even a piece of string. Now there’s some fence.


the best fence we could build would be to make recreational drug use legal in the US and help build up mexico’s economy so people have no more incentive to come over here.

327 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:33:56pm

re: #306 Lidane

Son of a bitch. Remember that new abortion law in OK that the governor just vetoed? His veto got overridden in the House:

Oklahoma House Overrides Abortion Restrictions Vetoes

So not only are women going to be forced to get an ultrasound against their will, but they also can’t sue the doctors if they’re lied to about their pregnancy.

Nice, Oklahoma. Real nice. Assholes.

Unreal.

328 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:34:05pm

re: #317 goddamnedfrank

No, the local cops put the cuff on him first, for no other reason than his lack of a birth certificate. Then they gave him to ICE, who released him when his wife showed up with it. This is exactly how the AZ law is designed to work. It had been passed, it was only awaiting signature. The cops didn’t care. Again, he was not arrested for any other reason than the lack of a certificate. He would not have been in custody otherwise because he broke no law. You cannot blame ICE for this.

worse has happened to me in Jamaica…you roll with the punches

329 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:34:38pm

re: #306 Lidane

Son of a bitch. Remember that new abortion law in OK that the governor just vetoed? His veto got overridden in the House:

Oklahoma House Overrides Abortion Restrictions Vetoes

So not only are women going to be forced to get an ultrasound against their will, but they also can’t sue the doctors if they’re lied to about their pregnancy.

Nice, Oklahoma. Real nice. Assholes.

WHAT?! Okay, if their was ever a case for Federal Intervention on the abortion fight, this is it. This is so blatantly unconstitutional on so many levels, the people who voted for it should never hold a position in government again, since they obviously have never read anything about the principles this country was founded upon.

330 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:34:40pm

re: #317 goddamnedfrank

No, the local cops put the cuff on him first, for no other reason than his lack of a birth certificate. Then they gave him to ICE, who released him when his wife showed up with it. This is exactly how the AZ law is designed to work. It had been passed, it was only awaiting signature. The cops didn’t care. Again, he was not arrested for any other reason than the lack of a certificate. He would not have been in custody otherwise because he broke no law. You cannot blame ICE for this.

see #276. i’m bored.

331 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:34:45pm

re: #324 Floral Giraffe

I was a “good doobie” and went back & reported it.

me too

332 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:35:06pm

re: #321 SpaceJesus

i wouldn’t really say theyre exploiting them. paying a prep cook 3 bucks an hour in a restaurant stateside is like paying him 3 times more than he’d make in mexico. it’s a damn good deal for him, and us. if you actually had to pay him minimum wage, nearly every restaurant would go under.

So we should be happy with a situation that violates our labor laws? Or do you think we need new labor laws?

333 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:35:20pm

re: #325 jaunte

I’m pissed off at the wealthy families in Mexico who have monopolized the money-making opportunities there to the point that their poorer population has to move to another country for a decent life.

bulls eye!

334 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:35:29pm

re: #318 albusteve

the American citizens have a legitimate right to be pissed off…as for the rest, I really don’t care

Really? What about legal immigrants. There are many who may or may not become citizens. Do you care about them?

335 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:35:40pm

re: #326 SpaceJesus

the best fence we could build would be to make recreational drug use legal in the US and help build up mexico’s economy so people have no more incentive to come over here.

Why would you think we could fix another country’s economy?

336 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:35:46pm

whoop, the game’s back on. I’m gonna make like HoosierHoops and fade into the background…

337 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:35:46pm

re: #236 Unakite

OK. I read the headlines but don’t live in Arizona. I thought the law allowed the police to check the citizenship status of people who had already broken the law. I didn’t know that the law “allow(ed) the police to stop people at random and demand proof of citizenship.” If that’s the case then I am against it too. Is that the case???

Per the NYTimes:

The law, which proponents and critics alike said was the broadest and strictest immigration measure in generations, would make the failure to carry immigration documents a crime and give the police broad power to detain anyone suspected of being in the country illegally.

338 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:36:12pm

re: #240 TampaKnight

You’re implying that our economy is built soley off of illegal labor?

Not solely, but it ain’t a small contribution.

339 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:36:16pm

re: #326 SpaceJesus

the best fence we could build would be to make recreational drug use legal in the US and help build up mexico’s economy so people have no more incentive to come over here.

I agree, but I still want some barbed wire to denote the international boundary.

340 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:36:17pm

re: #328 albusteve

worse has happened to me in Jamaica…you roll with the punches

And yet you do not choose to live there, quelle surprise.

341 SpaceJesus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:36:34pm

re: #332 JasonA

So we should be happy with a situation that violates our labor laws? Or do you think we need new labor laws?

perhaps a better version of the guest worker program would cut it

342 thequis  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:36:35pm

re: #250 Varek Raith

So… what the hell constitutes “reasonable suspicion” for being an illegal alien?

Brown skinre: #267 Dark_Falcon

I actually agree, partially. I’d like to see if we could ID some of the drug traffic heading north. Not vehicles carrying illegals (I don’t want people massacred), but drug carriers. Blow up a small number of them, and I think that would have a positive effect.

At what point has any American statute carried the death penalty for drug trafficking. Furthermore, what about trial amongst a jury of peers, and guilty until proven innocent.

If you REALLY want to stop drug trafficking go after the Lawyers and Bankers that help launder the money. Try them with RICO laws which will allow them to be tried for murder if anyone of the criminal organization that they work for/apart of are tried for murder.

343 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:36:38pm

re: #309 HoosierHoops

I know this is a war…I have wondered about this..Why Am I being a heretic about light speed? Let’s do a though experiment just like Einstein..
Everybody knows a black hole has so much gravity that light can’t escape…We know this right? So how fucking fast do you think light was moving when the whole universe’s mass was at one single point smaller than the eye can see? How fast was light traveling then? I believe as mass expanded the speed of light increased..I know I may be the stupidest person on earth..But I’m buying into the mass vs. Speed of light thing..

Well like I said, inflation is not well understood. I can buy that pretty much any woojy thing happened at a high enough energy density. However spectra of distant and hence ancient things would indicate that alpha and c have been fixed for as long as we can directly observe.

If you doubt this just look at the spectra of the hydrogen atom and consider how the bands would be different.

Come to think of it, I bet you could show the splitting of degenerate levels would be different via perturbation theory as well.

At the end of the day we see no such switch in spectra.

344 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:36:50pm

re: #334 Gus 802

Really? What about legal immigrants. There are many who may or may not become citizens. Do you care about them?

sort of….my stash of sympathy is limited

345 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:36:59pm

I’m also going to drop back a bit.

346 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:37:25pm

re: #321 SpaceJesus

i wouldn’t really say theyre exploiting them. paying a prep cook 3 bucks an hour in a restaurant stateside is like paying him 3 times more than he’d make in mexico. it’s a damn good deal for him, and us. if you actually had to pay him minimum wage, nearly every restaurant would go under.

I really hate the arguments that make it sound like we are doing that guy a favor by underpaying him. While he is here, he still has to eat and find housing.

347 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:37:33pm

re: #343 LudwigVanQuixote

Well like I said, inflation is not well understood. I can buy that pretty much any woojy thing happened at a high enough energy density. However spectra of distant and hence ancient things would indicate that alpha and c have been fixed for as long as we can directly observe.

If you doubt this just look at the spectra of the hydrogen atom and consider how the bands would be different.

Come to think of it, I bet you could show the splitting of degenerate levels would be different via perturbation theory as well.

At the end of the day we see no such switch in spectra.

i love this stuff

348 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:37:42pm

re: #315 Dark_Falcon

You have to have solid advance intel. One thing you could use is thermal imaging, which can pick up the heat from people in a vehicle and thus distinguish it from a similar vehicle carrying drugs. If it were carrying both, the order would be ‘hold fire’ of course.

I think it’d be easier and more effective way to spend our money just to have boots on the ground inspecting the vehicles at the border.

349 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:37:57pm

re: #250 Varek Raith

So… what the hell constitutes “reasonable suspicion” for being an illegal alien?

Part of the problem seems to be that no one is perfectly sure about that.

350 Mark Pennington  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:38:05pm

re: #318 albusteve

the American citizens have a legitimate right to be pissed off…as for the rest, I really don’t care

You’re under the impression that only illegal Hispanics are pissed off?

351 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:38:15pm

re: #340 goddamnedfrank

And yet you do not choose to live there, quelle surprise.

I own property there and have lived there for months at a time…it’s the way things are, no reason to come unglued

352 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:38:44pm

re: #252 Spare O’Lake

Damn straight I would! Tough shit for me, though, it’s the price I will have to pay for the actions of the illegals.

What bullshit. An American citizen’s rights do not diminish because of the actions of foreigners.

353 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:39:01pm

re: #254 Aceofwhat?

no

Give evidence of that, please?

354 Fear the Blah People  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:39:18pm

re: #328 albusteve

worse has happened to me in Jamaica…you roll with the punches

Yeah, but this guy is a US citizen. You are not a Jamaican citizen (or are you?) That’s the whole point.

Everyone likes to give away their rights if it doesn’t affect them personally. Here we go again.

355 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:39:28pm

re: #258 darthstar

dark skin, straw cowboy hat, fluency in Spanish…

I think that’s almost everyone in Arizona.

356 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:39:38pm

re: #324 Floral Giraffe

I was a “good doobie” and went back & reported it.

I was so pissed off by it that I down dinged and wrote up a long post responding to it using the quote feature.

So yay for spending energy for the right cause in the wrong way!

357 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:39:42pm

re: #184 SpaceJesus

um

Hm, I was recently accused for stealth downdings by another lizard. Glad to see your stupid comments finally got you into the plus zone.

358 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:39:42pm

re: #330 Aceofwhat?

see #276. i’m bored.

Non responsive, he was given to ICE by the weigh station cops, who arrested him for no other reason than the lack of a birth certificate. I’m bored, you’re just dishonest.

359 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:40:45pm

re: #353 SanFranciscoZionist

Give evidence of that, please?

aw, shucks. i’m watching the game…i’ll do it in an hour…promise?

360 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:41:01pm

re: #267 Dark_Falcon

I actually agree, partially. I’d like to see if we could ID some of the drug traffic heading north. Not vehicles carrying illegals (I don’t want people massacred), but drug carriers. Blow up a small number of them, and I think that would have a positive effect.

I’ve seen some of the stuff the cops and army are pulling out in Mexico. BIG guns. I do not think the narcos are easily unnerved.

361 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:41:09pm

re: #348 jamesfirecat

I think it’d be easier and more effective way to spend our money just to have boots on the ground inspecting the vehicles at the border.

so do I…it’s the remote ares where the damage is done….those places that could use a fence to funnel illegals into more accessible ares, easier to deal with….that’s what a fence is for

362 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:41:39pm

re: #348 jamesfirecat

I think it’d be easier and more effective way to spend our money just to have boots on the ground inspecting the vehicles at the border.

Unless and until the border is sealed, laws like AZ’s can not solve the problem because the border is just one big revolving door.

363 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:41:56pm

re: #337 SanFranciscoZionist

Per the NYTimes:

The law, which proponents and critics alike said was the broadest and strictest immigration measure in generations, would make the failure to carry immigration documents a crime and give the police broad power to detain anyone suspected of being in the country illegally.

In other words it legalizes harassing easy minority targets with unreasonable demands and give unreasonable power to enforcement agencies to fuel the fears and dreams of recrimination of the disaffected white folks who feel this is some sort of pay back for a perceived loss of status.

I repeat. Early Nazis. This stuff starts slowly and builds steam.

We are seeing it in action, in the USA, right now.

364 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:42:10pm

re: #358 goddamnedfrank

Non responsive, he was given to ICE by the weigh station cops, who arrested him for no other reason than the lack of a birth certificate. I’m bored, you’re just dishonest.

Exactly. As the law has been in Arizona for some time now. As i said. I’m not lying, and thank you for stooping to that level despite several other reliable folks telling you that you’re wrong.

365 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:42:12pm

re: #352 SanFranciscoZionist

What bullshit. An American citizen’s rights do not diminish because of the actions of foreigners.

yes they do…an unsecured border is proof

366 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:42:24pm

re: #361 albusteve

problem is, a fence without guards (or lolmines) is essentially nothing.

And we can’t afford to effectively patrol the whole border. We need to think in other ways than ‘omg physical barrier!’

367 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:42:26pm

re: #300 jamesfirecat

Umm… how do you tell a van carrying drugs from a van carrying illegals from a few thousand feet up?

Hence the qualifier “if they could ID the drug traffic”.

I’ve read what Dark_Falcon writes. He isn’t someone who wants a slaughter of innocents. Personally, I agree with him on this issue. With all the horrendous actions the Cartels have done in Mexican cities, it is obvious that they have declared war on the Mexican Government, and I think that they should learn what happens with you try to out-muscle a nation’s army.

re: #323 Dark_Falcon

I’d happily offer the drones as support for Mexico, but they should stay under US control.

Nah, the Cartels have been fighting the outright war against the Mexican government. The US should stay out of it, so that the Mexican Government could honestly say that they are just doing an internal clean-up, with no American presence that could mess with that in any way. However, there isn’t anything wrong with arming the government well.

368 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:42:39pm

re: #349 SanFranciscoZionist

Part of the problem seems to be that no one is perfectly sure about that.

And it was deliberately designed that way also to allow a wide range of interpretation in the field.

369 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:42:39pm

re: #288 Varek Raith

So, how would they identify illegal C.eh.N.eh.D.eh.ns???
/
:)

Floppy heads.

370 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:42:55pm

re: #363 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah, I went full Godwin over this the other day, too.

371 darthstar  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:43:10pm

LGF breaktime…play nice, everyone.

372 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:43:10pm

If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.

373 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:43:15pm

re: #369 SanFranciscoZionist

Floppy heads.

Eh?

374 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:43:42pm

re: #363 LudwigVanQuixote

In other words it legalizes harassing easy minority targets with unreasonable demands and give unreasonable power to enforcement agencies to fuel the fears and dreams of recrimination of the disaffected white folks who feel this is some sort of pay back for a perceived loss of status.

I repeat. Early Nazis. This stuff starts slowly and builds steam.

We are seeing it in action, in the USA, right now.

bullshit….how lame

375 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:43:55pm

re: #291 Spare O’Lake

Right, me too. But why be pissed off at the cop? You should be pissed off at the illegals whose actions have created this awful situation.

I’m not pissed off at the cop. I’m pissed off at the moronic Arizona politicians who have produced a law that will be shot down by the courts.

The ‘awful situation’ will be made no better by this dumbass law. For the forty-five minutes it will actually be allowed to stand.

376 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:44:03pm

re: #365 albusteve

That’s… nonsensical.

What rights are being abrogated by an non-secure border?

377 webevintage  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:44:07pm

re: #306 Lidane

Son of a bitch. Remember that new abortion law in OK that the governor just vetoed? His veto got overridden in the House:

So not only are women going to be forced to get an ultrasound against their will, but they also can’t sue the doctors if they’re lied to about their pregnancy.

Nice, Oklahoma. Real nice. Assholes.

So the law law forcing men to get prostate exams using the extra think “wand” did not pass?
Figures.

And what kind of bull shit is this that your Doctor can lie about aspects of your pregnancy to you? Jebus I am sick to death of these laws that discriminate against women because we are the only ones that can have kids.

And yeah, I’m sure we’ll hear soon about how we all need to stop having hedonistic sex and be open to pregnancies.

378 jaunte  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:44:14pm

re: #372 Walter L. Newton
Jack Handey!

379 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:44:20pm

re: #352 SanFranciscoZionist

What bullshit. An American citizen’s rights do not diminish because of the actions of foreigners.

Wanna bet? 9/11 wasn’t done by domestics. Read the Patriot Act lately?

380 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:44:59pm

re: #305 Decatur Deb

Bump into them. If they apologize, ya gott’em.

If they offer you a doughnut on the hoose, closed case.

381 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:45:09pm

re: #366 windsagio

problem is, a fence without guards (or lolmines) is essentially nothing.

And we can’t afford to effectively patrol the whole border. We need to think in other ways than ‘omg physical barrier!’

it would be patroled, guarded and enforced….why wouldn’t it?

382 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:45:13pm

re: #340 goddamnedfrank

And yet you do not choose to live there, quelle surprise.

I wrote off Jamaica as a place to spend any time when I heard a reggae song on the “shortwave” radio from there one night.

“It’s a lovely night man…
To kill the white man.”

Somehow hearing that song resulted in me not wanting to go there, go figure?

383 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:45:14pm

re: #379 cliffster

Change to “Shouldn’t”. I agree with you that Congress dropped the ball with that one.

384 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:45:15pm

re: #377 webevintage

So the law law forcing men to get prostate exams using the extra think “wand” did not pass?
Figures.

And what kind of bull shit is this that your Doctor can lie about aspects of your pregnancy to you? Jebus I am sick to death of these laws that discriminate against women because we are the only ones that can have kids.

And yeah, I’m sure we’ll hear soon about how we all need to stop having hedonistic sex and be open to pregnancies.

amen, sister. preach it!!

385 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:45:28pm

re: #379 cliffster

Wanna bet? 9/11 wasn’t done by domestics. Read the Patriot Act lately?

Insert “Should Not” in place of “do not”. The point still stands.

386 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:45:44pm

re: #307 Aceofwhat?

My understanding is that the law only allows officers to ask for ADDITIONAL documentation if they have reasonable suspicion of another crime, i.e. the same standard required to search your car without your consent.

Do you think i’ve paraphrased the law incorrectly?

(i still don’t support it, btw, but it’s important to me to understand it correctly)

Can you show me where you see that in the text? I want to make sure we’re looking at the same piece.

387 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:45:57pm

re: #381 albusteve

The immense cost? Somebody a month or 2 back actually came up with a projected number.

It was absurd.

388 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:46:21pm

re: #375 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m not pissed off at the cop. I’m pissed off at the moronic Arizona politicians who have produced a law that will be shot down by the courts.

The ‘awful situation’ will be made no better by this dumbass law. For the forty-five minutes it will actually be allowed to stand.

The same Arizona legislature that passed the birther bill.

I’m beginning to detect a pattern there.

389 andres  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:46:21pm

re: #291 Spare O’Lake

Right, me too. But why be pissed off at the cop? You should be pissed off at the illegals whose actions have created this awful situation.

Right. I’d be pissed of at the moron that thought it was a good idea.

390 justaminute  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:46:30pm

re: #321 SpaceJesus

Sorry I hate to disabuse you of that notion. Mexican are pretty aware how much their labor is worth. I do not have Mexican now. In OK we have the state coming around and checking. Believe it or not but the state of OK was caught with immigrants. The state hires contractors and the contractors hire them.

I drove down my street today and someone was getting a new roof and the common area in my subdivision was being mowed. All by Mexicans.

I know other business owners that hired them after the State quit checking on everyone. If you even think of paying those low of wages they are gone.

391 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:46:33pm

re: #314 Spare O’Lake

I think you’re talking about tens of thousands of businesses and millions of employees. Talk about creating a police state!

So we should go after illegal immigrants, but not their employers? Eh?

392 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:46:52pm

re: #388 Gus 802

There are some good correlations that can be derived also >>

393 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:47:03pm

re: #386 SanFranciscoZionist

Can you show me where you see that in the text? I want to make sure we’re looking at the same piece.

FINE i’ll pause the game.

you’re lucky that i really like you grumblegrumblegrumble

394 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:47:30pm

Later, lizards.

395 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:47:38pm

re: #366 windsagio

problem is, a fence without guards (or lolmines) is essentially nothing.

And we can’t afford to effectively patrol the whole border. We need to think in other ways than ‘omg physical barrier!’

Damn it, we’ve only started competing with them and already China has showed they’re superiority to us!

396 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:47:45pm

re: #325 jaunte

I’m pissed off at the wealthy families in Mexico who have monopolized the money-making opportunities there to the point that their poorer population has to move to another country for a decent life.

I’m pissed at Simon Bolivar. He knows why.

397 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:48:00pm

re: #390 justaminute

“Low wages” applies to migratory farm workers, not people doing roofing.

also, what does this line mean?

I do not have Mexican now.

398 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:48:08pm

re: #376 windsagio

That’s… nonsensical.

What rights are being abrogated by an non-secure border?

the pursuit of happiness…whatever, if you decide there is no problem, that’s your business…if you think you can dry up incentives, and make the USA an unfriendly environment for illegals, that’s your problem…but you are living in a dreamworld….young idealism I guess

399 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:48:19pm

re: #367 Dante41

Nah, the Cartels have been fighting the outright war against the Mexican government. The US should stay out of it, so that the Mexican Government could honestly say that they are just doing an internal clean-up, with no American presence that could mess with that in any way. However, there isn’t anything wrong with arming the government well.

My concern is that key information on the drones could fall into unfriendly hands due to corruption in Mexico. I’m entirely willing to deploy drones in a support capacity, but I want them controlled by Americans. They would not, however, hit anything south of the border without Mexican approval.

400 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:49:20pm

re: #398 albusteve

you’re confusing the Constitution with the Declaration of Independence again.

Civics Education sure has gone to hell!

401 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:49:23pm

re: #390 justaminute

Sorry I hate to disabuse you of that notion. Mexican are pretty aware how much their labor is worth. I do not have Mexican now. In OK we have the state coming around and checking. Believe it or not but the state of OK was caught with immigrants. The state hires contractors and the contractors hire them.

I drove down my street today and someone was getting a new roof and the common area in my subdivision was being mowed. All by Mexicans.

I know other business owners that hired them after the State quit checking on everyone. If you even think of paying those low of wages they are gone.

*BARF* bunch of words in a puddle.

402 Sheepdogess  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:49:53pm
Politician - A politician or political leader (from Greek “polis”) is an individual who is involved in influencing public decision making. This includes people who hold decision-making positions in government, and people who seek those positions, whether by means of election, coup d’état, appointment, electoral fraud, conquest, right of inheritance (see also: divine right) or other means. Politics is not limited to governance through public office. Political offices may also be held in corporations, and other entities that are governed by self-defined political processes.
403 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:49:58pm

re: #382 ausador

I wrote off Jamaica as a place to spend any time when I heard a reggae song on the “shortwave” radio from there one night.

“It’s a lovely night man…
To kill the white man.”

Somehow hearing that song resulted in me not wanting to go there, go figure?

that’s cool….imagine the stuff one might hear on US radio, or see in the news….I have Jamaica down pat so I don’t worry about raggae lyrics

404 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:50:29pm

re: #399 Dark_Falcon

Personally, I’m against the use of unmanned drones blowing stuff up on US soil.

405 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:50:36pm

re: #403 albusteve

Jamaica is a much better subject than ravings about immigration.

Tell us a story, Unca’ Steve!

406 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:50:47pm

re: #37 cliffster

C’mon, man, are you seriously arguing that there’s no crime problem along the Texas and Arizona border? Really?

I’m saying I haven’t seen any figures to back up it being a big problem, yes. For example, I was able to find a total of six kidnappings in one year. All the statistics I can find for El Paso shows it as a relatively safe city, compared to other US cities.

Furthermore, criminals tend to prey on their own, so I those figures don’t necessarily even represent attacks on innocents.

Before trying to solve a problem, I prefer to know there really is a problem. Obviously, I do think that the illegal drug trade is a problem in and of itself, but I’m not, until I actually see figures that show it, by that it’s spilling over into the civilian population.

I still would like to solve the problem largely through drug legalization, which would free up an absolutely enormous amount of law enforcement manpower for whatever the hell you want, including securing the border and catching illegal immigrants. I’d also like a path to citizenship that wasn’t a random lottery, so people could feel they really were doing something to move themselves forwards, rather than just depending on blind luck.

407 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:51:46pm

re: #391 SanFranciscoZionist

Here in WA state, the feds just hit an employer, a rather large orchard complex. Over 500 were busted and the owners fined and facing further prosecution. It had the affect of dropping the school enrollment one whole classification, from Class A to Class B.

408 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:52:30pm

re: #370 JasonA

Yeah, I went full Godwin over this the other day, too.

Don’t even call it Godwin. Whining about Godwin only applies if the comparison is invalid. If there is a valid comparison, like there is right here and right now, it just becomes a ritualized way of dismissing the facts.

Wake up folks.

Compare and contrast.

calvin.edu

Adolf Hitler’s Speech at the
1927 Nuremberg Rally

62 million people who seem to hold together are no longer a power factor in a world in which groups with 400 million are increasingly active, nations for which their population is their major tool of economic policy.

If numbers themselves are no longer a power factor, the second factor is territory. This, too, is no longer a power factor for us, even seeming laughable when one can fly across our German territory in a mere four hours. That is no longer an amount of territory that provides its own defense, as is the case with Russia. Its size alone is a means of security. If the first two sources of power, population and territory, are inadequate, there remains always the third, that which rests in the inner strength of a people. A nation can do astounding things when it carries this power in its own internal values. When, however, we examine the German people, we must to our horror see that this last power factor is no longer present.

…

Truly these three points that form the intrinsic strength of a people are no longer regarded in Germany. The opposite. As I have said, today one places no value on our blood, on the intrinsic value of our race, but rather apostles proclaim that it is completely irrelevant whether one is Chinese, Kaffir, or Indian. If a nation internalizes such thinking, its own values are of no use. It has renounced the protection of its values, for they too must be protected and encouraged.

…

That leads to what the large parties proclaim, namely to a nation that thinks internationally, follows the path of democracy, rejects struggle, and preaches pacifism. A people that has accepted these three human burdens, that has given up its racial values, preaches internationalism, that limits its great minds, and has replaced them with the majority, that is inability in all areas, rejecting the individual mind and praising human brotherhood, such a people has lost its intrinsic values.

Sound familiar?

There is no Godwin. These folks are very close to Nazis.

409 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:53:08pm

re: #400 windsagio

you’re confusing the Constitution with the Declaration of Independence again.

Civics Education sure has gone to hell!

no I’m not…I just don’t take your silly questions literally…maybe you can bring me up to speed with your own knowledge of the border, time spent down there etc…why don’t you convince me that those areas are safe and citizens are secure and happy with the status quo

410 Mark Pennington  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:53:11pm

My first LGF fist fight was fun!

411 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:53:34pm

re: #399 Dark_Falcon

My concern is that key information on the drones could fall into unfriendly hands due to corruption in Mexico. I’m entirely willing to deploy drones in a support capacity, but I want them controlled by Americans. They would not, however, hit anything south of the border without Mexican approval.

That would still lend some credence to any wharrgarbl that Hugo Chavez and Alex Jones and their ilk spew about “American Imperialism”.

However, there isn’t anything wrong with “selling” the Mexican Government an export model of the Predator. Hell, I’m willing to bet that whoever makes the things (so sorry, I forgot) has had plans for one on the drawing board for years. Take out the classified stuff, replace the high-end electronics with slightly out-dated pieces, engineer it so that little functionality is lost, and viola.

412 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:53:51pm

re: #374 albusteve

bullshit…how lame

See 408 and learn some history.

413 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:54:10pm

re: #406 Obdicut

I’m not buying that it’s spilling over. PIMF.

414 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:54:20pm

re: #386 SanFranciscoZionist

Can you show me where you see that in the text? I want to make sure we’re looking at the same piece.

ok, here’s the bill

azleg.gov

Look at the first section, part B

“For any lawful contact…”

“Lawful contact” is a legal term for “they need a valid reason to pull you over”.

Mind you, i’m not saying i like this bill. I’m not saying a policeman can’t say “uhhh…sir, your tailight is out…can i see your birth certificate”?

But they can’t just ask for ID. They need to first have lawful contact and then they can act on suspicion of immigration.

It’s still not good enough, IMHO…but it’s not just yanking people off the side of the street.

How’s that?

415 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:54:43pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

I’m not disagreeing with you, and I really did go there the other day, so I’m not dismissing it all. It’s just the tone that it involves. Very Free Republic.

416 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:54:51pm

re: #364 Aceofwhat?

Exactly. As the law has been in Arizona for some time now.

It’s been the law in Arizona for “some time” that everyone must travel with a birth certificate, and can be cuffed and given to ICE after breaking no law, based soley on a police officer’s suspicions, which can be partially but not primarily based on race? Exactly which law are you referring to?

417 Lidane  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:54:56pm

re: #377 webevintage

And what kind of bullshit is this that your Doctor can lie about aspects of your pregnancy to you? Jebus I am sick to death of these laws that discriminate against women because we are the only ones that can have kids.

Preach it. I think that’s the one that enrages me more than the forced ultrasound. It’s bad enough that you’re forcing an unwanted medical procedure on a woman, but giving the doctor the legal cover to lie to her about the condition of her pregnancy? That’s just beyond the pale. I honestly don’t see how that’s legal at all.

And yeah, I’m sure we’ll hear soon about how we all need to stop having hedonistic sex and be open to pregnancies.

Heh. Yeah, because if a woman has hedonistic sex, she’s a whore who should be punished for it. If a man does it, he’s just sowing his oats. =P

418 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:55:18pm

re: #375 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m not pissed off at the cop. I’m pissed off at the moronic Arizona politicians who have produced a law that will be shot down by the courts.

The ‘awful situation’ will be made no better by this dumbass law. For the forty-five minutes it will actually be allowed to stand.

Don’t forget the impact of the tourism boycotts that have already started (Vegas is not going to like this), the loss of farm labour, the looming trucker boycott, and several other things resulting from this. Rumor says it could cost them $13-15 billion lost from their state economy over the next year.

Can you say “OUCH!”

419 webevintage  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:55:24pm

Man this My Lai doc on PBS is brutal.
I wish my hubby would turn something else on.
I think I’m gonna have to find another part of the house to hang in for a bit.

420 ShaunP  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:56:19pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

I’ve gotta say; I think we’re on the same side of this argument, but the Nazi meme is really absurd. Calling “nazi” at everything minimizes how evil nazi germany really was…

421 andres  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:56:22pm

re: #367 Dante41

Nah, the Cartels have been fighting the outright war against the Mexican government. The US should stay out of it, so that the Mexican Government could honestly say that they are just doing an internal clean-up, with no American presence that could mess with that in any way. However, there isn’t anything wrong with arming the government well.

From a political standpoint, it’s very important that the US doesn’t intervene outside their border. As it is, Central and South American nations always suspect of US actions in their territories, and fuels people like Chavez in Venezuela.

422 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:56:34pm

re: #362 Spare O’Lake

Unless and until the border is sealed, laws like AZ’s can not solve the problem because the border is just one big revolving door.

I don’t see how the border can ever be completely sealed.

How damned desperate must people be to leave what they know and are comfortable with, find a way to sneak across the border knowing all the dangers of that process, all in order to be able to earn enough money to support their families and give their kids a chance at a better life?

I can’t imagine having to make that choice.

And to those who think that these folks are taking jobs away from citizens - I truly believe, from what I’ve observed with my own eyes in my city, that the illegals are the folks doing the jobs that US citizens have decided are beneath them to do. Jobs that are too hot, too messy, too physically draining. If we get rid of the illegals, there will be plenty of work not getting done.

It just seems to me our government has (or should have) enough resources to be able to come up with some sort of guest worker program, that would allow these folks to come here and work, and be able to travel back home (and home is where I would always prefer to be - I imagine they are the same, but simply don’t have the option once they’re here).

re: #376 windsagio

That’s… nonsensical.

What rights are being abrogated by an non-secure border?

Healthcare - medical facilities closing because they are required to provide emergency care to illegals and are left uncompensated for that care, and go broke.

Which is why there must be some way we can give these folks some sort of legal standing to be in this country - guest worker, I don’t know - but something must be done.

423 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:56:48pm

re: #409 albusteve

Why don’t you address my actual arguments instead someone elses? :p

I didn’t say it was safe down there or whatever, I said that trying to ‘secure the border’ isn’t practical without reverting to methods we’re simply not willing to use.

424 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:56:59pm

re: #419 webevintage

Man this My Lai doc on PBS is brutal.
I wish my hubby would turn something else on.
I think I’m gonna have to find another part of the house to hang in for a bit.

War is Hell. It doesn’t matter how just it is, it is still Hell to all those get caught in it.

425 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:57:33pm

re: #415 JasonA

I’m not disagreeing with you, and I really did go there the other day, so I’m not dismissing it all. It’s just the tone that it involves. Very Free Republic.

I know, but the sooner we call it what it is and remind folks of the real history and the real threads that are being played with the better chance we have of stemming this tide soon.

426 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:57:42pm

The underpants bomber’s martyr video

427 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:57:57pm

re: #418 ausador

Don’t forget the impact of the tourism boycotts that have already started (Vegas is not going to like this), the loss of farm labour, the looming trucker boycott, and several other things resulting from this. Rumor says it could cost them $13-15 billion lost from their state economy over the next year.

Can you say “OUCH!”

Well as they say….

Youtube Video

428 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:58:44pm

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

What this topic here has shown more than anything is that the new law and the advocate freak out of every side has completely obscured the real problem-How to stop illegal entry by those who intend harm. Then you have to stop or at least reduce the illegal entry by workers and families, as our current economy has a serious unemployment problem.

IMO-Do those two things first and then we can talk about path to citizenship, increased quotas and a growing economy.

429 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:58:57pm

re: #342 thequis

Also, this is an excellent post. If you really want to take down drug pathways, going after the street-level people is idiotic. You have to follow the money.

But the people with the money can afford big fancy lawyers, and prosecutors— who mostly are people who want to run for something some day— don’t want a risky prosecution that might fail. So they by and large leave the enablers alone.

Yet another reason I would prefer that prosecutors be barred from seeking elected office, and perhaps even that it not be an elected office itself.

430 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:59:05pm

re: #422 reine.de.tout
There are at least(that I personally know of) 4 guest worker programs offered by the Feds. Problem is, as with any Fed agency, the paperwork takes an insane amount of time to process.

431 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:59:10pm

re: #416 goddamnedfrank

It’s been the law in Arizona for “some time” that everyone must travel with a birth certificate, and can be cuffed and given to ICE after breaking no law, based soley on a police officer’s suspicions, which can be partially but not primarily based on race? Exactly which law are you referring to?



On May 21, [2008] officers were given the authority to question criminal suspects about their citizenship status and contact federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents if they suspect a suspect is in the United States illegally.

Since then, Spencer said, “Stolen vehicles have gone down 29 percent. That’s a double-digit increase. Another thing that’s gone down, which is quite unusual, our priority one or emergency calls for service, have decreased 10 percent.”

“We’re connecting this decrease with the implementation of the immigration policies and the (employer sanctions) legislation that took effect in January,” he said. “So we think it is having a deterrent effect. Now, you add our new and improved policy which allows our officers to contact ICE…”
[Link: ktar.com…]

Will you fucking quit calling me a liar now, asshole?

432 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:59:16pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

Sound familiar?

There is no Godwin. These folks are very close to Nazis.

Well some of them are close to NEO nazis, like that infamous photo of the bill’s crafter with the notorious JT Ready.

433 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:59:45pm

re: #244 Gus 802

The wording is something like “reasonable cause.” I’d have to look it up again. But no, you don’t have to break a law first. All they need is reasonable suspicion.

OK, I didn’t read it either, but you already blew your argument. “Reasonable cause” I think is a common law enforcement concept and many people, including some of us who are actually citizens can be stopped for “reasonable cause” (where are the lawyers when you need them). In one paragraph you go from “the wording is something like reasonable cause” to “(a)ll they need is reasonable suspicion.”

FAIL!

434 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:59:50pm

Answer is - there’s no solution. It just sucks, and it is what it is. Makes for some wonderful everyone-scream-at-each-other opportunities though.

435 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 6:59:50pm

re: #421 andres

From a political standpoint, it’s very important that the US doesn’t intervene outside their border. As it is, Central and South American nations always suspect of US actions in their territories, and fuels people like Chavez in Venezuela.

Exactly. Hence my idea. If Chavez tries to accuse the US of intervening, the Mexican Government could legitimately say that they are dealing with an internal matter to restore order with no outside interference.

436 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:00:00pm

re: #390 justaminute

Huh?
What are you trying to say?

437 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:00:24pm

re: #433 Unakite

OK, I didn’t read it either, but you already blew your argument. “Reasonable cause” I think is a common law enforcement concept and many people, including some of us who are actually citizens can be stopped for “reasonable cause” (where are the lawyers when you need them). In one paragraph you go from “the wording is something like reasonable cause” to “(a)ll they need is reasonable suspicion.”

FAIL!

Fail?

Grow up.

438 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:00:31pm

re: #431 Aceofwhat?

hat tip: Jaunte!

439 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:00:42pm

re: #418 ausador

Oops I meant to explain the “vegas isn’t going to like this” thing, yes I know it is the state “next door” but less tourism for Arizona means less tourism for Nevada too. This is going to impact Vegas and they know it.

440 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:01:02pm

re: #431 Aceofwhat?


On May 21, [2008] officers were given the authority to question criminal suspects about their citizenship status and contact federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents if they suspect a suspect is in the United States illegally.

What criminality was Abdon suspected of?

Driving while brown.

441 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:01:11pm

re: #428 Rightwingconspirator

What this topic here has shown more than anything is that the new law and the advocate freak out of every side has completely obscured the real problem-How to stop illegal entry by those who intend harm. Then you have to stop or at least reduce the illegal entry by workers and families, as our current economy has a serious unemployment problem.

IMO-Do those two things first and then we can talk about path to citizenship, increased quotas and a growing economy.

Quite Concur.

442 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:01:37pm

re: #420 ShaunP

I’ve gotta say; I think we’re on the same side of this argument, but the Nazi meme is really absurd. Calling “nazi” at everything minimizes how evil nazi germany really was…

Then please read the Nuremberg rally speech in its entirety and tell me how there are not many similarities in the rhetoric and the psychology played on.

It is not absurd. It is exactly the same play but with different actors and different cultural icons.

Do you really think the Nazis referred to the Wiemar Republic in terms much different than we hear out of the tea parties? Do you really think that the basic meme of fear and hatred from perceived loss of power to maintain a mythical homeland that never existed is not being targeted at minority groups who are to blame now for taking that homeland vision away?

Open you eyes. I said that this stuff sounds like the early Nazis - not the later Nazis when they were in power.

443 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:01:48pm

re: #422 reine.de.tout

Not to be a jerk, but ‘healthcare’ isn’t a right either, even under the new reforms.

I’m not denying that there are costs to having illegal immigrants around (altho’ I think they’re greatly exaggerated), but rather objecting to the crazy hyperbole being foisted off on us.

444 Sheepdogess  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:02:12pm

re: #422 reine.de.tout

Hey Reine - where do you live? Near an international border? Upper eastside of Manny, PACNW? College town in Texas? I am just curious.

445 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:02:12pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

I remember reading a debate on Redstate three or four years ago, when they allowed as many as three variations on a conservative point of view in their posters, and they had more than 20 comments on any given diary. The upshot was a debate between a second or third generation immigrant who insisted that immigrants could be every bit as American as anyone else, and another poster whose position was that as soon as there was nobody left who could trace a direct genetic link to the founding generation, America as a nation no longer existed, and it would then become something else with the name America. In essence it came down to whether America was an ideal that people could buy into, or whether it really was a genetic trait that was passed down through blood.

I remember thinking at the time just how much like the Nuremberg Address his argument sounded. And also that such ideas of racial purity had to be just a bizarre aberration that were only tolerated because of the poster’s other conservative bona fides.

446 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:02:25pm

re: #222 andres
On that article? Ok.
See my 186
Real numbers.

447 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:02:40pm

re: #420 ShaunP

I’ve gotta say; I think we’re on the same side of this argument, but the Nazi meme is really absurd. Calling “nazi” at everything minimizes how evil nazi germany really was…

And one other thing. I never ever pull out nazi unless I mean it and can back it up. I have too many family murdered by those bastards to be disrespectful of the gravity of what I am saying.

448 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:02:42pm

ok, now i really am going to watch the game.re: #440 goddamnedfrank

Beats the hell out of me. You didn’t ask me if they conjured up some excuse to label him a criminal suspect. You called me a liar for suggesting that the process of a state policeman shunting a person to ICE wasn’t already in place.

Classy and well-informed…you’re quite the double-threat.

449 justaminute  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:02:48pm

re: #397 windsagio

Sure, we have hired Mexicans in the past. How much would you want to be paid to work the Third shift washing dishes, cleaning the restrooms, and at the end of the shift picking all the trash, beer bottles thrown down from the street? At that time we paid $10 hour. When advertising for this position we did not receive one American applicant. We received 12 Hispanic applicants. They got the $10 and they all had SS cards. They were bad cards but at the time of notification they have moved on.

Sometimes I would like to post what bills and the cost of food and labor and what customers will pay. Sorry, but no one gets rich running a restaurant. We have been in business for about 20 years and we only have money now because we paid off the restaurant.

450 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:02:57pm

re: #422 reine.de.tout

No. I linked to an article, where 300 illegals were fired in a grocery store chain, and lines formed to fill the jobs, in Arizona.

azfamily.com

451 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:02:58pm

re: #442 LudwigVanQuixote

Then please read the Nuremberg rally speech in its entirety and tell me how there are not many similarities in the rhetoric and the psychology played on.

It is not absurd. It is exactly the same play but with different actors and different cultural icons.

Do you really think the Nazis referred to the Wiemar Republic in terms much different than we hear out of the tea parties? Do you really think that the basic meme of fear and hatred from perceived loss of power to maintain a mythical homeland that never existed is not being targeted at minority groups who are to blame now for taking that homeland vision away?

Open you eyes. I said that this stuff sounds like the early Nazis - not the later Nazis when they were in power.

But wasn’t that speech from 1937? Hitler had been in power for 4 years by that time.

452 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:03:40pm

re: #428 Rightwingconspirator

What I’m saying is that the path to citizenship is part of reducing the illegal entry by workers.

453 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:04:07pm

re: #451 Dark_Falcon

But wasn’t that speech from 1937? Hitler had been in power for 4 years by that time.

The source: Alfred Rosenberg and Wilhelm Weiß, Reichsparteitag der NSDAP Nürnberg 19./21. August 1927 (Munich: Verlag Frz. Eher, 1927), pp. 38-45.

454 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:04:08pm

re: #407 pingjockey

Here in WA state, the feds just hit an employer, a rather large orchard complex. Over 500 were busted and the owners fined and facing further prosecution. It had the affect of dropping the school enrollment one whole classification, from Class A to Class B.

oh my!…decrease in federal funding!

455 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:04:16pm

Rednecks.

456 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:04:17pm

re: #428 Rightwingconspirator

Yes, you have to close the door, before you can deal with those already here. And, you have to close the door, quickly and quietly, or you set off a surge of incoming.

457 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:04:21pm

re: #434 cliffster

Answer is - there’s no solution. It just sucks, and it is what it is. Makes for some wonderful everyone-scream-at-each-other opportunities though.

Oh, I think there are plenty of solutions.

I think there are reasons that many businesses who use illegal labor don’t want those folks to have any sort of legal standing to work in this country, because then they would have to pay minimum wage. So they will fight amnesty or guest worker or any other program giving these folks legal standing, and they will contribute to those politicians who keep failing to do anything at all about illegal aliens.

458 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:04:52pm

re: #251 SpaceJesus

as someone who spent his entire undergrad working in restaurants, im saying that employers will find a way as will the workers from across the border. you can make as many laws as you want, but profit seeking will always find a way.

Upding on that. You’re learning something. Unfortunately, maybe not the right lesson. Capitalism works, and people go to where the money is.

459 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:04:58pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

Sound familiar?

There is no Godwin. These folks are very close to Nazis.

There is no similarity whatsoever.

460 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:05:10pm

re: #449 justaminute

Illegals make this country work, in a number of ways. Its a conundrum >>

461 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:05:34pm

re: #459 Spare O’Lake

There is no similarity whatsoever.

Then you are blind.

462 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:05:41pm

re: #408 LudwigVanQuixote

Sound familiar?

There is no Godwin. These folks are very close to Nazis.

won’t work with me….I’m hardly that gullible

463 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:06:08pm

re: #451 Dark_Falcon

But wasn’t that speech from 1937? Hitler had been in power for 4 years by that time.

Nuremberg was the Nazi rallying point. Hitler made many speeches there.

/not trying to be Captain Obvious.

464 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:06:14pm

re: #454 albusteve
Oh yeah. There was also a little clause in the last budget that was just passed. In order to save money, the state is spending 250k on a school merger commission. Haven’t heard what the Wash Educ. Assoc. (union) has to say about that.

465 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:06:29pm

re: #453 LudwigVanQuixote

The source: Alfred Rosenberg and Wilhelm Weiß, Reichsparteitag der NSDAP Nürnberg 19./21. August 1927 (Munich: Verlag Frz. Eher, 1927), pp. 38-45.

Oops, my error.

466 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:06:53pm

re: #445 Renaissance_Man

I remember reading a debate on Redstate three or four years ago, when they allowed as many as three variations on a conservative point of view in their posters, and they had more than 20 comments on any given diary. The upshot was a debate between a second or third generation immigrant who insisted that immigrants could be every bit as American as anyone else, and another poster whose position was that as soon as there was nobody left who could trace a direct genetic link to the founding generation, America as a nation no longer existed, and it would then become something else with the name America. In essence it came down to whether America was an ideal that people could buy into, or whether it really was a genetic trait that was passed down through blood.

I remember thinking at the time just how much like the Nuremberg Address his argument sounded. And also that such ideas of racial purity had to be just a bizarre aberration that were only tolerated because of the poster’s other conservative bona fides.

Yeah, the point is that what was fringe gains more and more traction based on the same memes and what was loony ten years ago is much more common today.

These things build up steam and reach a certain critical mass.

467 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:07:22pm

re: #463 Dante41

Nuremberg was the Nazi rallying point. Hitler made many speeches there.

/not trying to be Captain Obvious.

That i already did know. I misread the dates. Please excuse my error.

468 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:07:29pm

re: #431 Aceofwhat?


On May 21, [2008] officers were given the authority to question criminal suspects about their citizenship status and contact federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents if they suspect a suspect is in the United States illegally.

Again, what criminality was Abdon suspected of? Keep in mind that an infraction is not a crime. He was not a criminal suspect, if he were he would have been arrested based on the suspicion of an actual crime. That’s how that works.

469 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:07:34pm

re: #431 Aceofwhat?

Try again. That was a Phoenix law not an Arizona law.

The new fascist law signed by the new wingnut Governor of Arizona goes further then the Phoenix law.

470 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:08:14pm

re: #462 albusteve

won’t work with me…I’m hardly that gullible

You are hardly capable of reading or thinking critically either, and the facts of history here disagree with your preconceived notions. I am not surprised.

Tell you what.

This is one case where I would be thrilled to be completely wrong. But I am not.

471 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:08:14pm

re: #457 reine.de.tout

Oh, I think there are plenty of solutions.

I think there are reasons that many businesses who use illegal labor don’t want those folks to have any sort of legal standing to work in this country, because then they would have to pay minimum wage. So they will fight amnesty or guest worker or any other program giving these folks legal standing, and they will contribute to those politicians who keep failing to do anything at all about illegal aliens.

So how do you fix it then? In a world where there are no corrupt politicians. What do you do, even in that utopia?

472 sagehen  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:08:19pm

re: #299 researchok

Agreed. The real problem aren’t the illegals who cross the border to work. The real problem is the increasing number of illegals who come here to commit crimes.

98% of the illegal immigrants, that’s the only illegal thing they’ve ever done. They’re good, decent people we’re lucky the have, the kind of people who if they’d asked first we should have said yes.

2% are bad, evil, dangerous people. People we should be afraid of.

And the best way to catch that 2%? Is when the 98% aren’t afraid to come forward. Because they know who they are.

473 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:08:36pm

re: #443 windsagio

Not to be a jerk, but ‘healthcare’ isn’t a right either, even under the new reforms.

I’m not denying that there are costs to having illegal immigrants around (altho’ I think they’re greatly exaggerated), but rather objecting to the crazy hyperbole being foisted off on us.

Well, I get confused.
Sometimes healthcare is a “right”, other times it isn’t
It certainly contributes to a citizen’s quality of life, which is reduced when a nearby facility must close because it’s broke.

The bottom line - these folks aren’t going away. They’re here. Their children are here. There must be a way to give them some sort of legal standing to come here and work. I think there are plenty of solutions; I think that many businesses and politicians find it’s in their best interest to oppose any effort to give these folks any sort of legal standing.

474 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:08:41pm

re: #467 Dark_Falcon

That i already did know. I misread the dates. Please excuse my error.

It’s all good.

475 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:08:44pm

re: #426 Alouette

The underpants bomber’s martyr video

*In a high squeaky voice*

I who have sacrificed my balls and ability to breed for the greater glory of Islam…

//

476 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:08:54pm

re: #444 Sheepdogess

Hey Reine - where do you live? Near an international border? Upper eastside of Manny, PACNW? College town in Texas? I am just curious.

BAton Rouge, Louisiana.

477 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:09:11pm

PIMF. Trying to force feed my dog cancer meds in between posts, it’s fun for the whole family.

478 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:09:11pm

re: #461 LudwigVanQuixote

Then you are blind.

your infatuation with Hitler hardly applies to folks who want the border secured….the comparison makes you look rather simple minded and too ready to join some hoopla Nazi wagon….but go for it

479 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:09:14pm

re: #467 Dark_Falcon

That i already did know. I misread the dates. Please excuse my error.

No problem.

480 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:09:20pm

re: #472 sagehen

Absolutely!

481 ShaunP  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:09:30pm

re: #447 LudwigVanQuixote

And one other thing. I never ever pull out nazi unless I mean it and can back it up. I have too many family murdered by those bastards to be disrespectful of the gravity of what I am saying.

I know. We’ve had this conversation before. I still disagree. It’s the same reason that calling a democrat “communist” is absurd…

482 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:09:37pm

re: #466 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah, the point is that what was fringe gains more and more traction based on the same memes and what was loony ten years ago is much more common today.

These things build up steam and reach a certain critical mass.

Oh, I was wrong that it was a bizarre aberration. My memory of it is that the guy arguing for equal status for immigrants relented somewhat and accepted the neo-nazi’s point as mostly valid. And he was broadly agreed with.

And that was when the Conservatives were less fringe than they are now.

483 Gus  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:10:02pm

re: #478 albusteve

your infatuation with Hitler hardly applies to folks who want the border secured…the comparison makes you look rather simple minded and too ready to join some hoopla Nazi wagon…but go for it

If the jackboot fits.

484 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:10:34pm

re: #481 ShaunP

I know. We’ve had this conversation before. I still disagree. It’s the same reason that calling a democrat “communist” is absurd…

Lots of rumblings of “Communist State” from liberals after this law was passed. Communism! Circle is complete.

485 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:10:50pm

re: #417 Lidane

re: #377 webevintage

So the law law forcing men to get prostate exams using the extra think “wand” did not pass?
Figures.

And what kind of bull shit is this that your Doctor can lie about aspects of your pregnancy to you? Jebus I am sick to death of these laws that discriminate against women because we are the only ones that can have kids.

The proper job of all loyal women is to make more soldiers for the Reich.
And yeah, I’m sure we’ll hear soon about how we all need to stop having hedonistic sex and be open to pregnancies.

486 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:10:52pm

re: #478 albusteve

Telling a Jew that they’re infatuated with Hitler is a really, really shitty thing to do, Steve.

487 philosophus invidius  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:10:58pm

re: #46 Spare O’Lake

The illegals are overwhelmingly latin-Americans. Can one really afford to ignore that if one actually wants to catch the illegals without issuing national identity cards to everyone?

Requiring everyone to carry an ID would be preferable to profiling. But somehow I don’t think that the idea of requiring everyone to carry a federal ID at all times would be very popular with the people who support the AZ law. Now you know why people oppose the idea that “certain” people should be required to carry proof of citizenship. Oh right, I forgot: “we’re” not the problem, “they” are; civil liberties are for “us” not “them.”

But even if we had such a law, it would still be unconstitutional to go around asking people if they have an ID. That would amount to a general warrant—something which was a principle factor in sparking the American Revolution. Worse, it would be a general warrant that is essentially racist.

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

488 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:11:25pm

re: #410 beekiller

My first LGF fist fight was fun!

Heh, September 2009 and this was the first?

/Just kidding. :)

489 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:11:26pm

re: #450 Floral Giraffe

No. I linked to an article, where 300 illegals were fired in a grocery store chain, and lines formed to fill the jobs, in Arizona.

[Link: www.azfamily.com…]

Flo - what I know is this: No one would go work in NOLA after Katrina. Whine, whine, whine - the pay wasn’t enough, there wasn’t sufficient housing, yada yada yada. So we had an influx of Mexicans - lived in a tent city in NO City Park, in mud and just awful circumstances, just for the privilege of being able to work and start the rebuilding of the city. They were doing jobs that citizens would not do, because the circumstances of the work weren’t, well, quite comfortable enough for them.

490 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:12:01pm

re: #473 reine.de.tout

Totally with you on that;

In my personal opinion the answer is full amnesty for anybody that can show they’re working, and further prosecution of the people you’re talking about. The business/political forces that want to keep them as a criminal underclass.

491 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:12:33pm

re: #471 cliffster

So how do you fix it then? In a world where there are no corrupt politicians. What do you do, even in that utopia?

Me?
Guest worker programs that work. Apparently some exist now but they don’t work - too slow.

492 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:12:57pm

re: #486 Obdicut

Telling a Jew that they’re infatuated with Hitler is a really, really shitty thing to do, Steve.

stop applying Nazism with secured borders then…it’s inexcusable and a shitty thing to say

493 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:13:23pm

re: #487 philosophus invidius
I don’t know about your state, but WA state law requires those over 16 to carry positive(picture) ID with them when in public. It’s the law.

494 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:13:46pm

re: #493 pingjockey

I don’t know about your state, but WA state law requires those over 16 to carry positive(picture) ID with them when in public. It’s the law.

FASCISTS!

495 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:13:50pm

re: #486 Obdicut

Telling a Jew that they’re infatuated with Hitler is a really, really shitty thing to do, Steve.

Over-the-top comparisons to Nazis is pretty shitty too

496 Sheepdogess  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:14:24pm

re: #445 Renaissance_Man

My grandparents were legal immigrants. They rooted for the Yankees and the Mets and bought American cars, even thought the German cars were better.

They loved America. They escaped shit socialist countries. They understood what freedom and liberty were about…Obama still does not mention the words freedom of liberty.

Not Once.

They sent their grandchildren to college with their life savings…..

Poor grandparents dead and gone left me here to sing this song, pretty little girl with the red dress on….poor grandparents dead and gone.

497 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:14:28pm

re: #373 JasonA

Eh?

South Park. Canadians. Floppy heads.

498 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:14:35pm

re: #468 goddamnedfrank

no, he had to be a SUSPECT. i don’t know what he was suspected of. this process, of police passing people to the ICE, has already be in existence, and you’re also ignoring others who pointed out the same thing to you.

but thanks for not being butthurt about it/

499 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:14:49pm

re: #493 pingjockey

Deeply depressing.

re: #494 albusteve

Frickin’ right, it is!

The WA state Dems are scum >

500 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:15:18pm

re: #379 cliffster

Wanna bet? 9/11 wasn’t done by domestics. Read the Patriot Act lately?

I was against that too, as it happens.

501 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:15:22pm

re: #496 Sheepdogess

Shoo.

502 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:15:25pm

re: #497 SanFranciscoZionist

South Park. Canadians. Floppy heads.

Exactly. Hence the “Eh?” :P

503 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:16:03pm

re: #499 windsagio

Deeply depressing.

re: #494 albusteve

Frickin’ right, it is!

The WA state Dems are scum >

3/4 of all legislators are scum….maybe more

504 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:16:05pm

re: #502 JasonA

Exactly. Hence the “Eh?” :P

What the hell are talking aboot?

505 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:16:14pm

re: #495 cliffster

I agree with him that ugly nationalist movements, such as the one propelling Berluscioni to power in Italy, start with an appeal to commonality and a persecution of selected minority groups. These tactics were, in the modern day, used by the Nazis.

It is important to point out those same tactics wherever they are used.

506 justaminute  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:16:28pm

re: #401 cliffster

How many people have you hired? Mexicans are not standing on street corners or in the parking lot of Home Depot in OKC. They seem to have actually started their own business. In OK we have in the South side of OKC a little Mexico there. Grocery stores, tortilla factories, restaurants. Last time I hired a cook, $17 hr, dishwasher $12. We have 30 employees and waitresses work for tips. I used to have 3 or 4 Mexicans show up wanting these jobs and now I can’t hire them. But I sure know who does and they all work outside now and go home to Mexico during the winter.

507 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:16:30pm

re: #504 Varek Raith

What’s going on here, friend?

508 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:16:36pm

re: #491 reine.de.tout

Me?
Guest worker programs that work. Apparently some exist now but they don’t work - too slow.

People will come illegally anyways. Some of them will be violent, especially with things the way they are in certain places. And you can’t just go rounding people up. You shouldn’t want to anyways. It’s a tough problem. I don’t think it will be solved. Especially given our complete lack of utopia-ness.

509 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:16:49pm

re: #478 albusteve

Steve, that was so far over the line the lines not even in sight anymore. Ludwig doesn’t have totalitarian bone in his body. Frankly, I don’t see how you could even think he did.

510 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:17:28pm

re: #136 Gus 802

I would argue that sanctuary cities need to go. Unless someone can prove to me otherwise. They conflict with Federal law.

Hate to go back a few hundred posts, but I have actually heard a pragmatic reasoning for this. If city police will not check citizenship status (leaving it to the feds), illegals would be less hesitant to report crimes to the police. No matter if a person is in the country illegally, nobody likes to see a innocent person get hurt.

511 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:17:34pm

re: #507 windsagio

What’s going on here, friend?

I’m not your friend, buddy!


Canadians, :)

512 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:17:40pm

re: #497 SanFranciscoZionist

South Park. Canadians. Floppy heads.

BLAME CANADA! BLAME CANADA!

513 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:17:41pm

re: #496 Sheepdogess

They loved America. They escaped shit socialist countries. They understood what freedom and liberty were about…Obama still does not mention the words freedom of liberty.

Not Once.

Rather, it has been the risk-takers, the doers, the makers of things - some celebrated but more often men and women obscure in their labor, who have carried us up the long, rugged path towards prosperity and freedom.

You need a new meme.

514 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:17:56pm

re: #407 pingjockey

Here in WA state, the feds just hit an employer, a rather large orchard complex. Over 500 were busted and the owners fined and facing further prosecution. It had the affect of dropping the school enrollment one whole classification, from Class A to Class B.

So, who should we blame? The employer? The workers? The feds?

515 andres  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:18:00pm

re: #428 Rightwingconspirator

What this topic here has shown more than anything is that the new law and the advocate freak out of every side has completely obscured the real problem-How to stop illegal entry by those who intend harm. Then you have to stop or at least reduce the illegal entry by workers and families, as our current economy has a serious unemployment problem.

IMO-Do those two things first and then we can talk about path to citizenship, increased quotas and a growing economy.

You can even skip that part and go for the next part.

re: #430 pingjockey

There are at least(that I personally know of) 4 guest worker programs offered by the Feds. Problem is, as with any Fed agency, the paperwork takes an insane amount of time to process.

This is a better fix. Currently, the immigration process can take years in complete. For desperate people, crossing the border, risking their life, and selling their soul to the Devil is a small price to pay because they need the money now. Reducing these processes to months at most, it makes crossing the border, and therefore risking their lives, much less attractive.

516 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:18:04pm

re: #496 Sheepdogess

Obama says the words freedom and liberty all the time, you enormous jackass.

huffingtonpost.com

517 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:18:23pm

re: #496 Sheepdogess

My grandparents were legal immigrants. They rooted for the Yankees and the Mets and bought American cars, even thought the German cars were better.

They loved America. They escaped shit socialist countries. They understood what freedom and liberty were about…Obama still does not mention the words freedom of liberty.

Not Once.

They sent their grandchildren to college with their life savings…

Poor grandparents dead and gone left me here to sing this song, pretty little girl with the red dress on…poor grandparents dead and gone.

Yes you can tell that Obama hates freedom and liberty because he doesn’t talk about them!

518 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:18:56pm

re: #508 cliffster

People will come illegally anyways. Some of them will be violent, especially with things the way they are in certain places. And you can’t just go rounding people up. You shouldn’t want to anyways. It’s a tough problem. I don’t think it will be solved. Especially given our complete lack of utopia-ness.

I think with a solid guest worker program, and strict enforcement of the border areas, and enforcement of penalties against those (employers AND illegals) who refuse or fail to take part in the guest worker program - it would take some time, but it could be solved.

519 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:18:58pm

re: #517 jamesfirecat

Except of course he does.

Somebody let their prejudices slip >

520 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:19:04pm

re: #506 justaminute

How many people have you hired? Mexicans are not standing on street corners or in the parking lot of Home Depot in OKC. They seem to have actually started their own business. In OK we have in the South side of OKC a little Mexico there. Grocery stores, tortilla factories, restaurants. Last time I hired a cook, $17 hr, dishwasher $12. We have 30 employees and waitresses work for tips. I used to have 3 or 4 Mexicans show up wanting these jobs and now I can’t hire them. But I sure know who does and they all work outside now and go home to Mexico during the winter.

Yeah, those pesky Mexicans, wanting to feed their families. Round ‘em up!

521 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:19:28pm

re: #487 philosophus invidius

Requiring everyone to carry an ID would be preferable to profiling. But somehow I don’t think that the idea of requiring everyone to carry a federal ID at all times would be very popular with the people who support the AZ law. Now you know why people oppose the idea that “certain” people should be required to carry proof of citizenship. Oh right, I forgot: “we’re” not the problem, “they” are; civil liberties are for “us” not “them.”

But even if we had such a law, it would still be unconstitutional to go around asking people if they have an ID. That would amount to a general warrant—something which was a principle factor in sparking the American Revolution. Worse, it would be a general warrant that is essentially racist.

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

I don’t see where they specifically said that you couldn’t hold warrant free searches of “brown” people. After all until after 1865 everyone acknowledged that non-white people were not in any way covered by the constitution or the bill of rights. Fine so maybe the Supreme Court has ruled that Black people are “kinda” covered now, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that “brown” people are, right?

///

522 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:19:40pm

re: #414 Aceofwhat?

ok, here’s the bill

[Link: www.azleg.gov…]

Look at the first section, part B

“For any lawful contact…”

“Lawful contact” is a legal term for “they need a valid reason to pull you over”.

Mind you, i’m not saying i like this bill. I’m not saying a policeman can’t say “uhhh…sir, your tailight is out…can i see your birth certificate”?

But they can’t just ask for ID. They need to first have lawful contact and then they can act on suspicion of immigration.

It’s still not good enough, IMHO…but it’s not just yanking people off the side of the street.

How’s that?

The problem is that ‘lawful contact’ also includes knocking on doors when responding to a call…dealing with the victim of a crime…taking a witness report…and that is where I see AZ law enforcement having a really bad time with this.

523 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:20:03pm

re: #478 albusteve

your infatuation with Hitler hardly applies to folks who want the border secured…the comparison makes you look rather simple minded and too ready to join some hoopla Nazi wagon…but go for it

This is not an infatuation.

I always wondered how it was possible that such madness could sweep over Germany. I never subscribed to some notion that something was especially wrong with German’s from their genetics, so I concluded that the process had to be psychological and economic.

There is a process to how these things build in a nation. It starts with the whackos being given disproportionate air time and funding from vested corporate and political interests. Those interests think they can control the whackos. They can not.

With the whacko message repeated 24/7 - particularly a message that you are really actually superior to your circumstances and you have been duped by a traitorous elite who are taking from you and giving to foreigners or ethnic groups you don’t like - soon even sane people begin to map their frustrations onto those groups and the government. After all, where there is smoke there is fire right? And the economy is tough right?

The kicker is some deep mystical ideal to tie together a mystic vision of the homeland that never was, but all the whackos can ascribe to. For Germany this was teutonic mythos. For America it is a hardcore form of Christian America. That part doesn’t matter. What does matter is that the people believe that vision is their right and that right was stolen from them. Then they are whipped up into a fury and pointed like a gun at weak groups first. The first picked on are easy targets. Immigrants, gays, communists, (Jewis in Germany, but it will be black and brown folks here).

All of those groups are the traitors to the glorious homeland from without and within and then after a few victories against them - humiliating them, stripping them of rights, it feeds the lust of the growing whacko base.

Eventually, this cycle repeats until the government itself can be challenged.

We are in the early stages of such a movement right now.

524 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:20:19pm

re: #509 Dark_Falcon

Steve, that was so far over the line the lines not even in sight anymore. Ludwig doesn’t have totalitarian bone in his body. Frankly, I don’t see how you could even think he did.

he certainly has no problem pegging large swaths of American citizens as Nazis….fuck that, I don’t care about his bones or background…a post is a post

525 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:20:47pm

re: #516 Obdicut

Obama says the words freedom and liberty all the time, you enormous jackass.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

Yay, the return of word counting!111!!

526 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:20:59pm

re: #514 SanFranciscoZionist
The employer, the illegals had really, really good fake docs. Actually you could blame the feds I guess. They let the illegals through!

528 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:22:02pm

re: #524 albusteve

he certainly has no problem pegging large swaths of American citizens as Nazis…fuck that, I don’t care about his bones or background…a post is a post

I’ve come to believe that the over-the-top stuff with LVQ, when he’s worked up, his just his style. When he’s particularly worked up, I’m not sure he even realizes how his comments read to others.

529 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:22:10pm

re: #431 Aceofwhat?


On May 21, [2008] officers were given the authority to question criminal suspects about their citizenship status and contact federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents if they suspect a suspect is in the United States illegally.

Since then, Spencer said, “Stolen vehicles have gone down 29 percent. That’s a double-digit increase. Another thing that’s gone down, which is quite unusual, our priority one or emergency calls for service, have decreased 10 percent.”

“We’re connecting this decrease with the implementation of the immigration policies and the (employer sanctions) legislation that took effect in January,” he said. “So we think it is having a deterrent effect. Now, you add our new and improved policy which allows our officers to contact ICE…”
[Link: ktar.com…]

Will you fucking quit calling me a liar now, asshole?

You’d sort of think that law would fulfill the function some folks here are claiming for the new one.

530 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:22:17pm

re: #514 SanFranciscoZionist

So, who should we blame? The employer? The workers? The feds?

good question for those who want to dry up opportunity…to do that the feds are gonna have to come down tres hard on employers

531 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:22:20pm

re: #523 LudwigVanQuixote

With the whacko message repeated 24/7 - particularly a message that you are really actually superior to your circumstances and you have been duped by a traitorous elite who are taking from you and giving to foreigners or ethnic groups you don’t like - soon even sane people begin to map their frustrations onto those groups and the government.

This is the part that really resonates, to me, with the Paulians and the Rand-ites and their ilk. They are convinced that they’d be doing much better in this different world that they want, and they’re convinced others are currently getting what’s theirs.

532 Four More Tears  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:22:37pm

re: #527 prairiefire

Thank You!

Irony is that was his first damn day on the job.

533 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:23:04pm

re: #469 Gus 802

Try again. That was a Phoenix law not an Arizona law.

The new fascist law signed by the new wingnut Governor of Arizona goes further then the Phoenix law.

i know. it was signed after poor Abdon was taken to the ICE. Abdon was taken to the ICE under existing laws.

like i and others keep saying…

534 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:23:07pm

re: #514 SanFranciscoZionist

So, who should we blame? The employer? The workers? The feds?

It’s not a blame situation. We have to realize that our current practices aren’t getting the results the nation wants, determine what our best interests are, and legislate (and enforce) in that direction. Most of this belongs at the Fed level.

535 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:24:27pm

re: #506 justaminute

Well, the illegals of every nationality ARE standing on the street corners of LA looking for work.

536 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:24:45pm

re: #528 reine.de.tout

I agree with him. Look at Italy right now. Do you think an Italian fifteen years ago thought they’d have a fascist like Berlusconi in charge?

These things can happen in enlightened, Western democracies. The price we pay for freedom of speech is allowing the circumstances for dangerous speech. And such dangerous speech needs to be pointed out for what it is, too.

537 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:26:16pm

re: #493 pingjockey

I don’t know about your state, but WA state law requires those over 16 to carry positive(picture) ID with them when in public. It’s the law.

Will that ID be considered proof? Apparently the PD didn’t consider Mr. Abdon’s to be.

538 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:26:23pm

re: #523 LudwigVanQuixote

This is not an infatuation.

I always wondered how it was possible that such madness could sweep over Germany. I never subscribed to some notion that something was especially wrong with German’s from their genetics, so I concluded that the process had to be psychological and economic.

There is a process to how these things build in a nation. It starts with the whackos being given disproportionate air time and funding from vested corporate and political interests. Those interests think they can control the whackos. They can not.

With the whacko message repeated 24/7 - particularly a message that you are really actually superior to your circumstances and you have been duped by a traitorous elite who are taking from you and giving to foreigners or ethnic groups you don’t like - soon even sane people begin to map their frustrations onto those groups and the government. After all, where there is smoke there is fire right? And the economy is tough right?

The kicker is some deep mystical ideal to tie together a mystic vision of the homeland that never was, but all the whackos can ascribe to. For Germany this was teutonic mythos. For America it is a hardcore form of Christian America. That part doesn’t matter. What does matter is that the people believe that vision is their right and that right was stolen from them. Then they are whipped up into a fury and pointed like a gun at weak groups first. The first picked on are easy targets. Immigrants, gays, communists, (Jewis in Germany, but it will be black and brown folks here).

All of those groups are the traitors to the glorious homeland from without and within and then after a few victories against them - humiliating them, stripping them of rights, it feeds the lust of the growing whacko base.

Eventually, this cycle repeats until the government itself can be challenged.

We are in the early stages of such a movement right now.

whatever…secure the border and most of the problem is solved….it didn’t have to get this far along and doesn’t need to get much worse, unless historians want to talk it to death…I don’t care for all the semantics, comparisons, and dismal future predictions….secure the border first, then gab about what we’ve done later

539 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:26:43pm

re: #519 windsagio

Except of course he does.

Somebody let their prejudices slip >

Ehh even if we give him his premise (Obama doesn’t talk about Freedom and Liberty) his conclusions are non sequitors, unless Freedom and Liberty actually hurt Obama to say because he’s some kind of Captain Planet Villain who is pained by pure goodness itself….

540 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:26:44pm

re: #496 Sheepdogess

My grandparents were legal immigrants. They rooted for the Yankees and the Mets and bought American cars, even thought the German cars were better.

They loved America. They escaped shit socialist countries. They understood what freedom and liberty were about…Obama still does not mention the words freedom of liberty.

Not Once.

They sent their grandchildren to college with their life savings…

Poor grandparents dead and gone left me here to sing this song, pretty little girl with the red dress on…poor grandparents dead and gone.

Obama has ever said freedom or liberty?

541 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:27:01pm

re: #537 SanFranciscoZionist
Not familiar with Mr. Abdon?

542 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:27:06pm

re: #528 reine.de.tout

I’ve come to believe that the over-the-top stuff with LVQ, when he’s worked up, his just his style. When he’s particularly worked up, I’m not sure he even realizes how his comments read to others.

good observation

543 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:27:08pm

re: #502 JasonA

Exactly. Hence the “Eh?” :P

Ah. Eh.

544 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:27:30pm

re: #528 reine.de.tout

I’ve come to believe that the over-the-top stuff with LVQ, when he’s worked up, his just his style. When he’s particularly worked up, I’m not sure he even realizes how his comments read to others.

ONly reine I am not worked up.

I am soberly telling you this is it.


Compare the actions of Krupp and other industrialists and newsmen in germany to the actions of Fox today int hat context. Compare how major political players got on the Nazi boat because it rallied the folks up with such a basic message of anger and false entitlement to the rhetoric of the GOP. Compare the revamped and twisted teutonic crap of the nazis to the revamped and twisted Dominionist Christian view.

Notice how the government is the prime traitor that needs to be purged before turning our eyes outside (Ron Paul, Buchannan anyone?).

No I am dead sober.

545 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:27:56pm

re: #506 justaminute

How many people have you hired? Mexicans are not standing on street corners or in the parking lot of Home Depot in OKC.

They sure as hell are in Richmond, CA.

546 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:28:08pm

re: #522 SanFranciscoZionist

The problem is that ‘lawful contact’ also includes knocking on doors when responding to a call…dealing with the victim of a crime…taking a witness report…and that is where I see AZ law enforcement having a really bad time with this.

i don’t disagree in the slightest. i think it’s baaad stuff. but it’s still not exactly stopping people for NO reason…

To me, it’s important to acknowledge to proponents that yes, technically, we understand that this isn’t free license to yank people off the streets, but that it still creates an oppressive atmosphere through overbroad language which doesn’t address the heart of the problem…that good people want to come here in greater numbers than we’ve allowed ourselves to process. shame on us…

547 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:29:15pm

re: #531 Obdicut

This is the part that really resonates, to me, with the Paulians and the Rand-ites and their ilk. They are convinced that they’d be doing much better in this different world that they want, and they’re convinced others are currently getting what’s theirs.

worrying about them is a waste of time….simply ignore them and legislate what’s right…otherwise pander and you end up in albusteve’s pol dumpster

548 Mark Pennington  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:30:09pm

re: #488 Unakite

Heh, September 2009 and this was the first?

/Just kidding. :)

Yep. I usually miss them and watch the replay late at night before I sleep. This time I got lucky! ;)

549 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:30:12pm

re: #536 Obdicut

I agree with him. Look at Italy right now. Do you think an Italian fifteen years ago thought they’d have a fascist like Berlusconi in charge?

These things can happen in enlightened, Western democracies. The price we pay for freedom of speech is allowing the circumstances for dangerous speech. And such dangerous speech needs to be pointed out for what it is, too.

I agree with what you said, in the way you said it.
What I sometimes have problems with is LVQ’s over the top (and it truly sometimes is!) way of expressing himself.

550 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:30:21pm

re: #530 albusteve

good question for those who want to dry up opportunity…to do that the feds are gonna have to come down tres hard on employers

Aren’t the employers going to be screwed if the border is secured anyway?

551 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:31:13pm

re: #549 reine.de.tout

I agree with what you said, in the way you said it.
What I sometimes have problems with is LVQ’s over the top (and it truly sometimes is!) way of expressing himself.

Which is fair, but this time I am not at all over the top. I am being careful in my language and deliberate in my arguments.

I am telling you the truth Reine.

552 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:31:49pm

re: #549 reine.de.tout

Heh. Ludwig will know what I mean when I say that, for a scientist, he is an absolutely excellent writer.

553 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:32:04pm

re: #550 SanFranciscoZionist

Aren’t the employers going to be screwed if the border is secured anyway?

many of them yes…what of it?…it’s their own little personal depression they brought onto themselves….they better get hip, fast eh?

554 justaminute  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:32:16pm

re: #520 cliffster

Yeah, those pesky Mexicans, wanting to feed their families. Round ‘em up!

Oh, Cliffster, we all want to eat but when customers go to the all-you-can-eat $6.99 buffet and go shopping at Wal mart only American’s are eating and they want the cheapest price you can sale for and they want large portion too, and don’t forget to refill the soft drink and everyone wants their bottomless cup of coffee. We have some customers come in 3 times a day. No matter what you charge, their going to complain about the price.

555 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:32:22pm

re: #552 Obdicut

Heh. Ludwig will know what I mean when I say that, for a scientist, he is an absolutely excellent writer.

lol thanks mate!

556 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:32:27pm

re: #541 pingjockey

Not familiar with Mr. Abdon?

The trucker who got handed over to ICE. In yesterday’s thread. His wife had to bring his birth certificate to prove he was a citizen.

He had his driver’s license, but apparently that wasn’t enough to convince the first-contact officers. I’m wondering what a person will have to produce under the new law to prove legal residency.

557 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:32:28pm

re: #552 Obdicut

Heh. Ludwig will know what I mean when I say that, for a scientist, he is an absolutely excellent writer.

damning with faint praise…one of my favorite tactics!/

558 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:33:11pm

re: #531 Obdicut

This is the part that really resonates, to me, with the Paulians and the Rand-ites and their ilk. They are convinced that they’d be doing much better in this different world that they want, and they’re convinced others are currently getting what’s theirs.

Thule society - family?

559 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:33:21pm

re: #551 LudwigVanQuixote

Which is fair, but this time I am not at all over the top. I am being careful in my language and deliberate in my arguments.

I am telling you the truth Reine.

well golly gee….I just don’t feel like a Nazi regardless of your conviction

560 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:33:34pm

re: #556 SanFranciscoZionist
Oh crap. Yep. That will be an issue.

561 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:33:48pm

re: #544 LudwigVanQuixote

ONly reine I am not worked up.

I am soberly telling you this is it.

Compare the actions of Krupp and other industrialists and newsmen in germany to the actions of Fox today int hat context. Compare how major political players got on the Nazi boat because it rallied the folks up with such a basic message of anger and false entitlement to the rhetoric of the GOP. Compare the revamped and twisted teutonic crap of the nazis to the revamped and twisted Dominionist Christian view.

Notice how the government is the prime traitor that needs to be purged before turning our eyes outside (Ron Paul, Buchannan anyone?).

No I am dead sober.

With Krupp, it was indeed a dual motive: Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach wanted to gain defense contracts, and also to avenge Germany’s humiliation at the hands of the Allies. That last is a cardinal difference from today: The defeat in WWI and the hatred in Germany of the Versailles Treaty greatly enhanced Hitlar’s opportunities.

562 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:34:20pm

re: #523 LudwigVanQuixote

This is not an infatuation.

I always wondered how it was possible that such madness could sweep over Germany. I never subscribed to some notion that something was especially wrong with German’s from their genetics, so I concluded that the process had to be psychological and economic.

There is a process to how these things build in a nation. It starts with the whackos being given disproportionate air time and funding from vested corporate and political interests. Those interests think they can control the whackos. They can not.

With the whacko message repeated 24/7 - particularly a message that you are really actually superior to your circumstances and you have been duped by a traitorous elite who are taking from you and giving to foreigners or ethnic groups you don’t like - soon even sane people begin to map their frustrations onto those groups and the government. After all, where there is smoke there is fire right? And the economy is tough right?

The kicker is some deep mystical ideal to tie together a mystic vision of the homeland that never was, but all the whackos can ascribe to. For Germany this was teutonic mythos. For America it is a hardcore form of Christian America. That part doesn’t matter. What does matter is that the people believe that vision is their right and that right was stolen from them. Then they are whipped up into a fury and pointed like a gun at weak groups first. The first picked on are easy targets. Immigrants, gays, communists, (Jewis in Germany, but it will be black and brown folks here).

All of those groups are the traitors to the glorious homeland from without and within and then after a few victories against them - humiliating them, stripping them of rights, it feeds the lust of the growing whacko base.

Eventually, this cycle repeats until the government itself can be challenged.

We are in the early stages of such a movement right now.

If you are correct - and I truly believe you are not - how can you be sure that your American Hitler will not be a Democrat?

563 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:35:02pm

re: #559 albusteve

well golly gee…I just don’t feel like a Nazi regardless of your conviction

No you are not, nor were you called one.

What you are is abrasive, ignorant and opinionated. You are too arrogant to shut up and think about what is said or get your facts straight before shooting your mouth off.

564 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:35:19pm

re: #558 LudwigVanQuixote

I’d have to know a lot more about The Family to say yeah to that. I don’t know how sincere they are in their religiosity.

565 andres  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:36:02pm

re: #446 Rightwingconspirator

On that article? Ok.
See my 186
Real numbers.

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

Why were these people detained? What are the charges? These are important data to know how truly violent undocumented immigrants are.

What if 3/4 of those suspected of being undocumented were arrested for speeding? What if only 1/15 committed a violent crime? I’m pulling numbers out of my ass here, but you also lack the same numbers.

The article I linked tries to analyze the very numbers you posted.

566 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:36:10pm

re: #559 albusteve

well golly gee…I just don’t feel like a Nazi regardless of your conviction

YOU don’t. And I doubt other Republicans do, either. However, some idiots like Beck seem like they walked right out of the early thirties. And they are saying similar things.

I ain’t calling the GOP Nazi’s. Just saying that they studied their playbook.

567 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:36:28pm

re: #562 Spare O’Lake

If you are correct - and I truly believe you are not - how can you be sure that your American Hitler will not be a Democrat?

do leaners count?…BO has the drooling mobs lined up

568 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:36:30pm

re: #544 LudwigVanQuixote

ONly reine I am not worked up.

I am soberly telling you this is it.

Compare the actions of Krupp and other industrialists and newsmen in germany to the actions of Fox today int hat context. Compare how major political players got on the Nazi boat because it rallied the folks up with such a basic message of anger and false entitlement to the rhetoric of the GOP. Compare the revamped and twisted teutonic crap of the nazis to the revamped and twisted Dominionist Christian view.

Notice how the government is the prime traitor that needs to be purged before turning our eyes outside (Ron Paul, Buchannan anyone?).

No I am dead sober.

OK.
And this of course is an issue someone should rightly be worked up about.
My response to Steve was in general, not specifically on this topic because I didn’t see the earlier conversation. There are times …

But as to the other - of course we must be vigilant, always. I see smaller and smaller groups of “tea partiers” and the like. Now, the ones that are there are increasingly vocal and strident, yes. But they are attracting smaller and smaller groups of people, as they become more outlandish and strident. I have faith that MOST people here in this country will see these things for what they are before they become a danger. Really.

What scares me is those people who are ONLY afraid of the right-wing loonies; and dismiss left-wing looniness as having no effect or being of no consequence. All of it must be watched.

569 Decatur Deb  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:37:35pm

re: #562 Spare O’Lake

If you are correct - and I truly believe you are not - how can you be sure that your American Hitler will not be a Democrat?

I would never assume he would be Republican. My Democratic Representative is Bobby Bright.

570 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:38:01pm

re: #567 albusteve

do leaners count?…BO has the drooling mobs lined up

Obama couldn’t be it. He doesn’t have the ruthlessness nor the rage of Hitler. Obama’s not the mass murder type, not at all.

571 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:39:31pm

re: #563 LudwigVanQuixote

No you are not, nor were you called one.

What you are is abrasive, ignorant and opinionated. You are too arrogant to shut up and think about what is said or get your facts straight before shooting your mouth off.

and when I don’t bow before your made up wisdom, you kick my behind?…pretty lame….in fact Lud, you are no better than a laugh or two for many here…like the guy with the red rubber nose…I’m underwhelmed

572 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:39:33pm

re: #562 Spare O’Lake

If you are correct - and I truly believe you are not - how can you be sure that your American Hitler will not be a Democrat?

Because it requires an unholy combination of mythical nationalism, anger at feeling oppressed when you “should be the master,” fear of the “other,” religious intensity and a desire to punish those perceived as taking that mythical nation from the common person who is just ed up and “going to take it back.”

That is the central nazi message.

It is also the central message of Stalin and Mao and to some extent, Ceasar.

The Dems are not giving that message.

I also did not say that we would have an “American Hitler.” We are not there yet. I said that were are hearing the same message and the same patterns of the early days of the Reich are happening here. Remember the Nazis started out small, as a fringe group.

573 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:40:26pm

re: #564 Obdicut

I’d have to know a lot more about The Family to say yeah to that. I don’t know how sincere they are in their religiosity.

Yeah, my ? was purposeful. I don’t know enough to know if it is a fair comparison or not. However there is enough to make me go hmmm.

574 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:41:04pm

re: #570 Dark_Falcon

Obama couldn’t be it. He doesn’t have the ruthlessness nor the rage of Hitler. Obama’s not the mass murder type, not at all.

but ordinary citizens along the border states are?….hahaha!

575 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:41:17pm

re: #571 albusteve

Then live up to your promise and stop talking to me. It is not as if my opinion of you will get worse.

576 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:41:19pm

re: #570 Dark_Falcon

Obama couldn’t be it. He doesn’t have the ruthlessness nor the rage of Hitler. Obama’s not the mass murder type, not at all.

Yeah. Say what you want about Obama, but he isn’t a ball of seething hatred.

577 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:41:32pm

re: #572 LudwigVanQuixote

Because it requires an unholy combination of mythical nationalism, anger at feeling oppressed when you “should be the master,” fear of the “other,” religious intensity and a desire to punish those perceived as taking that mythical nation from the common person who is just ed up and “going to take it back.”

That is the central nazi message.

It is also the central message of Stalin and Mao and to some extent, Ceasar.

The Dems are not giving that message.

I also did not say that we would have an “American Hitler.” We are not there yet. I said that were are hearing the same message and the same patterns of the early days of the Reich are happening here. Remember the Nazis started out small, as a fringe group.

“The Dems are not giving that message” You lair, by saying that you’re suggesting that the Dems have a unified political message that they are currently giving!

578 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:42:38pm

“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”

-Sinclair Lewis

579 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:42:47pm

re: #572 LudwigVanQuixote

hang on…Stalin and Mao???

580 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:42:50pm

re: #572 LudwigVanQuixote

Because it requires an unholy combination of mythical nationalism, anger at feeling oppressed when you “should be the master,” fear of the “other,” religious intensity and a desire to punish those perceived as taking that mythical nation from the common person who is just ed up and “going to take it back.”

That is the central nazi message.

It is also the central message of Stalin and Mao and to some extent, Ceasar.

The Dems are not giving that message.

I also did not say that we would have an “American Hitler.” We are not there yet. I said that were are hearing the same message and the same patterns of the early days of the Reich are happening here. Remember the Nazis started out small, as a fringe group.

The Dems are not giving that message right now.

But there have been times when they have.
And they’ve had their small fringe groups as well.

Which is why I said earlier - we can’t be afraid ONLY of right-wing loons. They all must be watched.

581 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:43:10pm

re: #571 albusteve

re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote

Guys, it is just a debate on an internet forum. Chill the fark out. Both of you are acting like you called each other’s mother a whore.

582 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:43:24pm

re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote

Then live up to your promise and stop talking to me. It is not as if my opinion of you will get worse.

I could care less…your stupid posts deserve a response…people in favor of a secured border are Nazis?….bwahahaha!…call me some more names

583 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:44:01pm

re: #582 albusteve

Chester! Bullwinkle! Rupert! Sammy! Griffith!

584 albusteve  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:44:10pm

re: #578 goddamnedfrank

“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”

-Sinclair Lewis

and wearing a gold tooth smile from ear to ear

585 sagehen  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:44:11pm

re: #562 Spare O’Lake

If you are correct - and I truly believe you are not - how can you be sure that your American Hitler will not be a Democrat?

Because Democrats don’t have the party discipline.

Or a dedicated cable channel and publishing operation and ubiquitous demagogue talk radio.

586 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:44:14pm

re: #580 reine.de.tout

The Dems are not giving that message right now.

But there have been times when they have.
And they’ve had their small fringe groups as well.

Which is why I said earlier - we can’t be afraid ONLY of right-wing loons. They all must be watched.

Exactly

587 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:44:36pm

re: #544 LudwigVanQuixote

ONly reine I am not worked up.

I am soberly telling you this is it.

Compare the actions of Krupp and other industrialists and newsmen in germany to the actions of Fox today int hat context. Compare how major political players got on the Nazi boat because it rallied the folks up with such a basic message of anger and false entitlement to the rhetoric of the GOP. Compare the revamped and twisted teutonic crap of the nazis to the revamped and twisted Dominionist Christian view.

Notice how the government is the prime traitor that needs to be purged before turning our eyes outside (Ron Paul, Buchannan anyone?).

No I am dead sober.

Woof, AGW and Fox?? We’re fucked!! (and I’m dead sober too). Guess with all the hundreds (if not thousands) of local and national stations being broadcast in America alone, I missed the “twisted teutonic crap of the nazis to the revamped and twisted Dominionist Christian view.”

And to be honest, I am not whatever you refer to as a Dominionist Christian, but I’m starting to take offense at your labeling everybody that you disagree with.

588 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:44:50pm

re: #585 sagehen

Because Democrats don’t have the party discipline.

Or a dedicated cable channel and publishing operation and ubiquitous demagogue talk radio.

MSNBC

589 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:44:56pm

re: #554 justaminute

Many of us, would be willing to pay the price, or forgo the purchase, to get ALL of the jobs in the USA up to legal standards. I feel a great pity, for someone who works for even the minimum wage, trying to get by in LA.
$7/hour X 40 hours/week X 52 weeks/year is $14560 gross income.
Good luck doing anything, except renting a room in a group house on that income. Oh, medical or dental insurance? Forget it!

590 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:45:22pm

re: #568 reine.de.tout

OK.
And this of course is an issue someone should rightly be worked up about.
My response to Steve was in general, not specifically on this topic because I didn’t see the earlier conversation. There are times …

But as to the other - of course we must be vigilant, always. I see smaller and smaller groups of “tea partiers” and the like. Now, the ones that are there are increasingly vocal and strident, yes. But they are attracting smaller and smaller groups of people, as they become more outlandish and strident. I have faith that MOST people here in this country will see these things for what they are before they become a danger. Really.

What scares me is those people who are ONLY afraid of the right-wing loonies; and dismiss left-wing looniness as having no effect or being of no consequence. All of it must be watched.

1. I don’t think you have (or will) ever seen me give a left wing loony a pass.

2. What makes this different from the left wing loonies is the vast amount of media and corporate support it gets and the way that mainstream politicians are gloming on to it. This is very much more dangerous than I think you give it credit for. There have always been Americans who think like this. They used to limit themselves to survivalist camps in the middle of no-where. Not so much anymore.

591 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:45:49pm

re: #585 sagehen

Because Democrats don’t have the party discipline.

Or a dedicated cable channel and publishing operation and ubiquitous demagogue talk radio.

lol…that’s fantastic…”we’d never get our shit together to the point that we could assume total control”

592 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:45:50pm

re: #577 jamesfirecat

“The Dems are not giving that message” You lair, by saying that you’re suggesting that the Dems have a unified political message that they are currently giving!

Lol - OK out of the 5237 messages they give, none of them is that.

593 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:45:53pm

re: #562 Spare O’Lake

If you are correct - and I truly believe you are not - how can you be sure that your American Hitler will not be a Democrat?

He won’t be. That much is guaranteed.

He won’t be because the second a Republican is in power, the agitation and incitement to rebellion will stop. That’s because most of this rage is manufactured by the Conservative media. And the Conservative media cannot use their emotional influence over the neo-nazi types to enhance support of a Democrat, because that violates a central tenet of the cult : Democrats are evil. It’s very hard to directly contradict a central religious tenet even for those in the grip of a cult.

However, I also don’t think that the current ugliness in the Conservative cult will explode into full blown Nazism as Ludwig warns. That’s because, as I say, this rage is artificial and manufactured. As soon as government is more to the liking of the Conservative media, it will no longer be in their interest to have civil unrest, so the rage will vanish as if by magic. I very much doubt that any widespread violence based on race will unfold, especially once a Republican is in power. The only possible group that I can realistically see true hate crimes towards are the ones that the Conservative media have always blamed : liberals. The ‘liberals’ are the ones who are always at fault, whoever they might be, and so it is possible, if remote, that this endless blame might escalate into some violence. But again, I doubt it.

594 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:46:01pm

re: #548 beekiller

Yep. I usually miss them and watch the replay late at night before I sleep. This time I got lucky! ;)

Heh, welcome and jump into the pool.

595 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:46:14pm

re: #585 sagehen
Really? WaPo, NYT, LAT, ABC/NBC/CBS/MSNBC/CNN isn’t enough?!

596 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:46:25pm

re: #562 Spare O’Lake

If you are correct - and I truly believe you are not - how can you be sure that your American Hitler will not be a Democrat?

He won’t be a democrat for the same reason the Jew’s don’t really control the banks.

President Obama could just barely get 60 democrats to agree on something, you want to try it 600 or 6000?

597 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:47:00pm

re: #581 Dante41

re: #575 LudwigVanQuixote

Guys, it is just a debate on an internet forum. Chill the fark out. Both of you are acting like you called each other’s mother a whore.

Too funny. That was the first curse I learned, that wasn’t in English.

598 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:47:00pm

re: #571 albusteve

and when I don’t bow before your made up wisdom, you kick my behind?…pretty lame…in fact Lud, you are no better than a laugh or two for many here…like the guy with the red rubber nose…I’m underwhelmed

You are a funny, funny man.

At last count, your many was about six.

599 celticdragon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:47:02pm

re: #523 LudwigVanQuixote

This is not an infatuation.

I always wondered how it was possible that such madness could sweep over Germany. I never subscribed to some notion that something was especially wrong with German’s from their genetics, so I concluded that the process had to be psychological and economic.

There is a process to how these things build in a nation. It starts with the whackos being given disproportionate air time and funding from vested corporate and political interests. Those interests think they can control the whackos. They can not.

With the whacko message repeated 24/7 - particularly a message that you are really actually superior to your circumstances and you have been duped by a traitorous elite who are taking from you and giving to foreigners or ethnic groups you don’t like - soon even sane people begin to map their frustrations onto those groups and the government. After all, where there is smoke there is fire right? And the economy is tough right?

The kicker is some deep mystical ideal to tie together a mystic vision of the homeland that never was, but all the whackos can ascribe to. For Germany this was teutonic mythos. For America it is a hardcore form of Christian America. That part doesn’t matter. What does matter is that the people believe that vision is their right and that right was stolen from them. Then they are whipped up into a fury and pointed like a gun at weak groups first. The first picked on are easy targets. Immigrants, gays, communists, (Jewis in Germany, but it will be black and brown folks here).

All of those groups are the traitors to the glorious homeland from without and within and then after a few victories against them - humiliating them, stripping them of rights, it feeds the lust of the growing whacko base.

Eventually, this cycle repeats until the government itself can be challenged.

We are in the early stages of such a movement right now.

I am very afraid that you may be right…and you observation of the mythic “golden age” in the past that is being subverted by “undesirables” is right on the mark. The law in Arizona is really a legal basis for pogroms.

600 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:47:06pm

re: #587 Unakite

Woof, AGW and Fox?? We’re fucked!! (and I’m dead sober too). Guess with all the hundreds (if not thousands) of local and national stations being broadcast in America alone, I missed the “twisted teutonic crap of the nazis to the revamped and twisted Dominionist Christian view.”

And to be honest, I am not whatever you refer to as a Dominionist Christian, but I’m starting to take offense at your labeling everybody that you disagree with.

I don’t know what that is either…isn’t “Dominionist” a Catholic variant?

601 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:47:37pm

re: #595 pingjockey

Really? WaPo, NYT, LAT, ABC/NBC/CBS/MSNBC/CNN isn’t enough?!

So everyone but Fox is a part of the Liberal Media basically?

602 celticdragon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:48:33pm

re: #587 Unakite

Woof, AGW and Fox?? We’re fucked!! (and I’m dead sober too). Guess with all the hundreds (if not thousands) of local and national stations being broadcast in America alone, I missed the “twisted teutonic crap of the nazis to the revamped and twisted Dominionist Christian view.”

And to be honest, I am not whatever you refer to as a Dominionist Christian, but I’m starting to take offense at your labeling everybody that you disagree with.

Mark Levin and Michael Savage come to mind…

603 prairiefire  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:48:59pm

re: #567 albusteve

do leaners count?…BO has the drooling mobs lined up

Careful, I’ll drip drool on your shoes./

604 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:49:15pm

re: #601 jamesfirecat
I’d say the big 3 plus CNN/MSNBC and those 3 major papers have a decidely left of the aisle slant.

605 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:49:23pm

re: #590 LudwigVanQuixote

1. I don’t think you have (or will) ever seen me give a left wing loony a pass.

2. What makes this different from the left wing loonies is the vast amount of media and corporate support it gets and the way that mainstream politicians are gloming on to it. This is very much more dangerous than I think you give it credit for. There have always been Americans who think like this. They used to limit themselves to survivalist camps in the middle of no-where. Not so much anymore.

1) NO, and I did not mean to imply that I had seen you do that.

2) Yes, the way the mainstream politicians are glomming onto this is an area of deep concern to me, very upsetting. Which is why I’m no longer registered R. But I see, among people I know, an awakening to the craziness. I really do see it happening. It won’t be lightening quick, but MOST people do not like far out fringe ideas, either too far left or too far right. The pendulum will swing back. It won’t be pretty, but it will.

606 sagehen  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:49:34pm

re: #588 reine.de.tout

MSNBC

Home of Joe Scarborough, 3 hours a day and co-anchoring all election coverage. Pat Buchanan on multiple shows, multiple times a week.

Yeah, sure, that’s that’s just wall to wall lefties over there.

607 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:49:54pm

re: #587 Unakite

Woof, AGW and Fox?? We’re fucked!! (and I’m dead sober too). Guess with all the hundreds (if not thousands) of local and national stations being broadcast in America alone, I missed the “twisted teutonic crap of the nazis to the revamped and twisted Dominionist Christian view.”

Then you haven’t been paying attention.

And to be honest, I am not whatever you refer to as a Dominionist Christian, but I’m starting to take offense at your labeling everybody that you disagree with.

I don’t recall labeling you anything. Do we have to go through yet another round of - of course not all Christians think that way and of course I was being specific to dominionist types - hence my use of the label?

Please try to take the whining about my broad brushes elsewhere. And I was not aware that we disagreed until you wrote that. No such brush was used, and falsely complaining that way it is a convenient way for you to dismiss what was said with substance by not looking at it.

Now I will

608 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:50:20pm

re: #597 Floral Giraffe

Too funny. That was the first curse I learned, that wasn’t in English.

It isn’t. It is just a silly word that Fark.com uses to filter the word “fuck” into.

609 palomino  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:50:27pm

re: #130 Rightwingconspirator

The article skips over the actual number of convicted criminals that are here illegally. Crime overall may be down, but the article is silent on how much of that crime is perpetrated by illegal immigrants.

The article doesn’t suggest that no cons are here illegally, only that they commit crimes at a rate lower than that of legal residents and citizens.

610 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:50:29pm

re: #593 Renaissance_Man

And I think the rage will simply change sides.
BAck and forth it goes.
And we survive it.

611 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:51:02pm

re: #602 celticdragon

Mark Levin and Michael Savage come to mind…

I heard Michael Savage a few times when i lived in Chicago…are you sure he’s Christian? He’s definitely Chrazy…in fact, after an hour or so on a few different occasions i still had absolutely no idea what he stood for and am pretty sure i’m short a few brain cells for the experience…

612 Dante41  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:51:26pm

re: #604 pingjockey

I’d say the big 3 plus CNN/MSNBC and those 3 major papers have a decidely left of the aisle slant.

No, it is just compared to Fox that they appear to. Seriously, compared to Fox the Daily Mail looks blinkin’ liberal.

613 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:51:34pm

re: #600 Aceofwhat?

I don’t know what that is either…isn’t “Dominionist” a Catholic variant?

Look it up. Seriously. If I describe it, some people here will jump all over my “bias.” You won’t need to look far. There are enough threads here about them.

614 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:51:57pm

re: #191 Aceofwhat?

you shouldn’t be allowed to “do do” anything…we’re trying to run a civilized country here/

Sorry, I missed this earlier, but that was funny. :)

615 celticdragon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:52:01pm

re: #600 Aceofwhat?

I don’t know what that is either…isn’t “Dominionist” a Catholic variant?

No. Dominionism or “Kingdom Now” is a Dispensationalist, Evangelical movement that seeks to create a Calvanist style theocracy in America by changing or completely getting rid of the Constitution.


More here…

In a politico-religious context, dominionism (also called subjectionism[1]) the tendency among some conservative politically-active Christians, especially in the United States, to seek influence or control over secular civil government through political action—aiming either at a nation governed by Christians, or a nation governed by a conservative Christian understanding of biblical law. The use and application of this terminology is a matter of controversy.

616 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:52:29pm

re: #605 reine.de.tout

1) NO, and I did not mean to imply that I had seen you do that.

2) Yes, the way the mainstream politicians are glomming onto this is an area of deep concern to me, very upsetting. Which is why I’m no longer registered R. But I see, among people I know, an awakening to the craziness. I really do see it happening. It won’t be lightening quick, but MOST people do not like far out fringe ideas, either too far left or too far right. The pendulum will swing back. It won’t be pretty, but it will.

I hope you are correct. The more awake they get the quicker the craziness stops.

617 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:52:40pm

re: #551 LudwigVanQuixote

Which is fair, but this time I am not at all over the top. I am being careful in my language and deliberate in my arguments.

I am telling you the truth Reine.

OK!
Again my comment to Steve was in general.

:-)

618 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:52:51pm

re: #613 LudwigVanQuixote

Look it up. Seriously. If I describe it, some people here will jump all over my “bias.” You won’t need to look far. There are enough threads here about them.

ok. i don’t want to get you jumped…

619 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:53:15pm

re: #612 Dante41
Heh. Daily Mail.

620 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:54:18pm

re: #582 albusteve

I could care less…your stupid posts deserve a response…people in favor of a secured border are Nazis?…bwahahaha!…call me some more names

Only I never said that.

And as to fulfilling your requests, very well:

Your mother was a hamster.

621 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:54:28pm

re: #616 LudwigVanQuixote

I hope you are correct. The more awake they get the quicker the craziness stops.

It’s happening, people’s eyes are being opened.
Now, some of it will be around - the creationism stuff - that’s going to be a battle.

I don’t like this stuff any more than you do. I don’t like who I see glomming onto it. And I’ll make my choices accordingly on election days as will others. The pendulum will swing.

622 blueraven  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:55:23pm

re: #202 Spare O’Lake

If you were in a foreign country would you be really, really, pissed off if you were asked to show your passport?

No, but I would be pissed if I were a legal citizen of the US and got stopped and asked for all kinds of ID, just because my skin is brown. Which is what this law allows.

623 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:55:54pm

re: #615 celticdragon

thanks!

and in a moment of levity, when i read your “Kingdom Now”, i immediately heard “serenity now!!!” in my head/

624 palomino  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:56:05pm

re: #253 Charles

I guess it shouldn’t be surprising that Tancredo backtracked so quickly. He wouldn’t want anything to harm his anti-immigrant cred. He may be out of office, but he’s still a politician.

625 celticdragon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:56:38pm

re: #611 Aceofwhat?

I heard Michael Savage a few times when i lived in Chicago…are you sure he’s Christian? He’s definitely Chrazy…in fact, after an hour or so on a few different occasions i still had absolutely no idea what he stood for and am pretty sure i’m short a few brain cells for the experience…

He claims to uphold right wing Religious values, although he is nominally Jewish.

626 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:57:29pm

Going upstairs >>>>

627 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:57:39pm

re: #623 Aceofwhat?

thanks!

and in a moment of levity, when i read your “Kingdom Now”, i immediately heard “serenity now!!!” in my head/

Serenity now, insanity later.

628 Sheepdogess  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:57:50pm

re: #617 reine.de.tout

Are you an American?

629 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:57:52pm

re: #561 Dark_Falcon

With Krupp, it was indeed a dual motive: Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach wanted to gain defense contracts, and also to avenge Germany’s humiliation at the hands of the Allies. That last is a cardinal difference from today: The defeat in WWI and the hatred in Germany of the Versailles Treaty greatly enhanced Hitlar’s opportunities.

This is true.

If there is a major economic crash here, it will be sufficient.

630 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:58:08pm

re: #623 Aceofwhat?

thanks!

and in a moment of levity, when i read your “Kingdom Now”, i immediately heard “serenity now!!!” in my head/

It’s equally absurd.

631 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:58:17pm

re: #625 celticdragon

He claims to uphold right wing Religious values, although he is nominally Jewish.

he’s out of his hairy mind, that’s what he is.

(i actually have no idea what he looks like…he just sounded like what i imagined Ted the Unabomber would sound like…)

632 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:58:34pm

re: #627 jamesfirecat

Serenity now, insanity later.

nicely done-

633 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:58:49pm

re: #629 LudwigVanQuixote

This is true.

If there is a major economic crash here, it will be sufficient.

Well, let’s hope we can crush this insanity before something like that happens.

634 prairiefire  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:58:50pm

re: #628 Sheepdogess

Are you an American?

Snort. Hey Reine, get a load of this!

635 tradewind  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:59:06pm

re: #601 jamesfirecat
They’d be the first to admit it, and they’re fine with it.
Check their ’ how many of you voted Republican’ survey……
Since the population’s vote has routinely been nearly split fifty fifty, a 90%+ tilt towards the D lever is pretty illustrative.

636 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 7:59:53pm

re: #630 Dark_Falcon

It’s equally absurd.

yep.

although of the thousands of Christians i’ve met, i’ve never heard anyone say the US should be run by Christian tenet. anti-abortion, pro-abstinence, sure, but not like this.

i have a feeling that a lot of typical Christian speech is easily misinterpreted as a desire for something more sinister…

637 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:01:37pm

re: #628 Sheepdogess

Are you an American?

i…honestly, i mean i know you’ve been an LGF member for a long time, but where does a question like that come from? is this what the good old days of 2004 were like?

638 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:01:47pm

re: #594 Unakite

Heh, welcome and jump into the pool.

Gee LVQ, Turnabout is fair play. Thanks for the stealth downding. This wasn’t even about you.

639 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:02:34pm

re: #622 blueraven

No, but I would be pissed if I were a legal citizen of the US and got stopped and asked for all kinds of ID, just because my skin is brown. Which is what this law allows.

no it doesn’t

640 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:03:10pm

“I am a meat popsicle.”

641 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:03:49pm

re: #638 Unakite

Gee LVQ, Turnabout is fair play. Thanks for the stealth downding. This wasn’t even about you.

eh, sometimes his people skills blink a little. on the whole, he’s a decent sort.

642 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:04:18pm

re: #572 LudwigVanQuixote
re: #586 Aceofwhat?

Many idiots on the right believe that Obama possesses some of those same fascistic characteristics.

Stop it already.

643 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:04:49pm

re: #640 pingjockey

“I am a meat popsicle.”

“You’re a monster, Zorg”

“I know”

644 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:05:37pm

re: #642 Spare O’Lake

re: #586 Aceofwhat?

Many idiots on the right believe that Obama possesses some of those same fascistic characteristics.

Stop it already.

Stop what?

645 Mr Pancakes  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:06:30pm

re: #202 Spare O’Lake

If you were in a foreign country would you be really, really, pissed off if you were asked to show your passport?

I’m asked for my passport in Mexico all the time……… when a US citizen conducts business in Mexico you have to produce your passport to get an FMN license. Immigration in Mexico is actually very stringent. You don’t want to be caught in a business without an FMN. The business runs an even greater risk (huge fines). You can’t get past the lobby without an FMN period.

646 blueraven  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:07:50pm

re: #639 Aceofwhat?

We will soon find out. I believe it does.

647 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:08:00pm

re: #642 Spare O’Lake

re: #586 Aceofwhat?

Many idiots on the right believe that Obama possesses some of those same fascistic characteristics.

Stop it already.

Open your eyes. The early nazis flopped about until they found their spokesman. The teabagger types have not done so yet. Just stop knee-jerking and look at history stuttering.

648 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:08:13pm

re: #643 Aceofwhat?

“You’re a monster, Zorg”

“I know”

I’d like a ZF1 (Zorg’s gun). I’d reload the arrows with Clue serum (for use on wingnuts). I’d use the Ice Cube System on Glenn Beck, because he needs to chill out, and I’d use the Net Launcher on Alex Jones. I’d save the Flamethrower for the next time the Stalkers start something.

649 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:08:41pm

re: #633 Dark_Falcon

Well, let’s hope we can crush this insanity before something like that happens.

The best way to do it is to not be afraid of openly pointing out the many, obvious and threatening parallels.

650 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:09:22pm

re: #646 blueraven

We will soon find out. I believe it does.

i linked to the bill above. save your belief for your faith of choice…

651 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:09:45pm

re: #600 Aceofwhat?

I don’t know what that is either…isn’t “Dominionist” a Catholic variant?

To be honest, not sure. I was raised as a Catholic and their are many Catholic variants, but “Dominionist” was something that we were never taught. IF that is a joke and you are referring to the recent sex scandals and “variant Catholics” being “dominionists,” well…

652 palomino  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:09:59pm

re: #496 Sheepdogess

My grandparents were legal immigrants. They rooted for the Yankees and the Mets and bought American cars, even thought the German cars were better.

They loved America. They escaped shit socialist countries. They understood what freedom and liberty were about…Obama still does not mention the words freedom of liberty.

WTF? This is teabag talk. Obama talks about freedom and liberty all the time, just like every president before him.

653 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:10:17pm

re: #648 Dark_Falcon

I’d like a ZF1 (Zorg’s gun). I’d reload the arrows with Clue serum (for use on wingnuts). I’d use the Ice Cube System on Glenn Beck, because he needs to chill out, and I’d use the Net Launcher on Alex Jones. I’d save the Flamethrower for the next time the Stalkers start something.

I’d like a fifth element, but that could be related to the fact that it was shaped like Milla Jovovich/

654 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:11:20pm

re: #651 Unakite

To be honest, not sure. I was raised as a Catholic and their are many Catholic variants, but “Dominionist” was something that we were never taught. IF that is a joke and you are referring to the recent sex scandals and “variant Catholics” being “dominionists,” well…

heh.

no, Celticdragon was kind enough to link a definition above. apparently it means christians who want an actual or a quasi-theocracy.

655 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:11:26pm

re: #653 Aceofwhat?

I’d like a fifth element, but that could be related to the fact that it was shaped like Milla Jovovich/

ROWR!!

656 Sheepdogess  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:11:27pm

re: #634 prairiefire

I was asking a question that has not yet been answered.

If she/he is American, what part?
Just curious.
Still no answer.

657 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:12:36pm

re: #656 Sheepdogess

I was asking a question that has not yet been answered.

If she/he is American, what part?
Just curious.
Still no answer.

You haven’t been answered because it doesn’t matter.

658 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:13:17pm

re: #656 Sheepdogess

I was asking a question that has not yet been answered.

If she/he is American, what part?
Just curious.
Still no answer.

You mean is Reine an American? I hope she doesn’t mind my answering yes…she lives in Louisiana.

My turn for a question. How does that information seem relevant to the discussion at hand? what, exactly, do you understand better now having learned that tidbit of information?

659 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:14:51pm

re: #656 Sheepdogess

I was asking a question that has not yet been answered.

If she/he is American, what part?
Just curious.
Still no answer.

oh, by the way, Reine said she was going upthread before you asked your question, i think.

it’d be polite of you to pay attention to those things rather than pout about not being answered.

i would have expected someone who’s frequented this blog for so long to have done that without my advice…

660 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:16:14pm

If you are Canadian you’re an American.
If you’re a US citizen you’re an American
If you’re Mexican you’re an American
We all be North Americans!
Somehow the US has appropriated “American” to mean US citizen.

661 jaunte  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:16:56pm

re: #660 pingjockey

My Venezuelan co-worker loves to correct the English speakers around him with that tidbit.

662 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:17:02pm

re: #656 Sheepdogess

I was asking a question that has not yet been answered.

If she/he is American, what part?
Just curious.
Still no answer.

I did answer. All the way up at 476.


re: #476 reine.de.tout

BAton Rouge, Louisiana.

663 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:18:51pm

re: #602 celticdragon

Mark Levin and Michael Savage come to mind…

Uhm, seriously I may be clueless, but I thought Mark Levin and Savage were Jewish. I’m not very religious and would love a clarification regarding how they fit into the Dominionist Christian label?

664 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:18:52pm

re: #452 Obdicut

How does a legalization process for those here reduce those coming in?

665 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:21:12pm

re: #663 Unakite

. I’m not very religious and would love a clarification regarding how they fit into the Dominionist Christian label?

its a convenient message for them to project.

really brings in good numbers.

666 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:22:11pm

re: #664 Rightwingconspirator

How does a legalization process for those here reduce those coming in?

It doesn’t.

667 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:22:24pm

re: #661 jaunte
Heh. That might get some folks attention. And, from Panama to the Mexican border is Central Anericans and south of the Canal are South Americans. Could really confuse the hell out of some people.

668 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:24:47pm

re: #665 windsagio

its a convenient message for them to project.

really brings in good numbers.

that…or they’re bad examples.

669 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:25:06pm

Going up

670 Sheepdogess  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:25:45pm

re: #657 b_sharp

Well, actually it does. He /she/ obviously doesn’t live here, thus their options are, well, opinions.

671 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:25:46pm

re: #622 blueraven

No, but I would be pissed if I were a legal citizen of the US and got stopped and asked for all kinds of ID, just because my skin is brown. Which is what this law allows.

FWIW, I got stopped in Africa because I was white. Can I complain that I got stopped while “driving while white,” or just the fact that I was in a foreign country and had to obey their laws. Maybe it was because I didn’t speak French…

672 andres  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:26:11pm

re: #645 Mr Pancakes

I’m asked for my passport in Mexico all the time… when a US citizen conducts business in Mexico you have to produce your passport to get an FMN license. Immigration in Mexico is actually very stringent. You don’t want to be caught in a business without an FMN. The business runs an even greater risk (huge fines). You can’t get past the lobby without an FMN period.

Which is fine. But do Mexicans have to show their passports and long form birth certificate (remember, no short form allowed) to walk on the streets of Mexico?

673 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:27:30pm

re: #654 Aceofwhat?

heh.

no, Celticdragon was kind enough to link a definition above. apparently it means christians who want an actual or a quasi-theocracy.

Thanks. After this many posts, can’t read them all. Will go back and look. :)

674 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:27:54pm

re: #670 Sheepdogess

Well, actually it does. He /she/ obviously doesn’t live here, thus their options are, well, opinions.

I’ve answered you twice.

re: #662 reine.de.tout

I did answer. All the way up at 476.


re: #476 reine.de.tout

BAton Rouge, Louisiana.

675 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:30:11pm

re: #670 Sheepdogess

Well, actually it does. He /she/ obviously doesn’t live here, thus their options are, well, opinions.

So - I’ve answered you twice, now 3 times and you continue to ignore my answers, or even the fact that I’ve answered.

Why is this so important to you?

676 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:31:04pm

re: #670 Sheepdogess

Well, actually it does. He /she/ obviously doesn’t live here, thus their options are, well, opinions.

But if he/she does live there then those opinions are what, something more than opinions?

677 Sheepdogess  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:31:10pm

re: #662 reine.de.tout

Ahhh, Louisiana, bless you. You have my sympathy.
Been there.
Not sure it’s part of America ;^)
Come to WA State.

678 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:32:29pm

re: #677 Sheepdogess

Ahhh, Louisiana, bless you. You have my sympathy.
Been there.
Not sure it’s part of America ;^)
Come to WA State.

No.
I like it a lot here.
Quite a lot.
And I’m not sure why you would insult us that way.

679 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:32:31pm

re: #675 reine.de.tout

So - I’ve answered you twice, now 3 times and you continue to ignore my answers, or even the fact that I’ve answered.

Why is this so important to you?

She wants to know whose opinions are more than just opinions.

A bit of tribal thinking I suspect.

680 Unakite  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:33:12pm

re: #665 windsagio

its a convenient message for them to project.

really brings in good numbers.

Skimming through, looks like I missed the definition/link. Will go back and look. Kind of bad to challenge LVQ and not know what you are talking about.

681 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:34:03pm

re: #679 b_sharp

She wants to know whose opinions are more than just opinions.

A bit of tribal thinking I suspect.

I’m a bit speechless.
I’ve never insulted Sheepdogess.
Can’t quite figure out why the insult to Louisiana.
pffft.

682 Sheepdogess  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:34:24pm

re: #678 reine.de.tout

Do you like your Governor?

683 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:34:54pm

re: #682 Sheepdogess

Do you like your Governor?

No.

684 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:35:18pm

re: #683 reine.de.tout

No.

And I voted for him.
He has been a huge disappointment.
A nothing.

685 bratwurst  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:35:28pm

re: #622 blueraven

No, but I would be pissed if I were a legal citizen of the US and got stopped and asked for all kinds of ID, just because my skin is brown. Which is what this law allows.

Indeed. This is the point that has kinda been pushed aside in this thread amidst talk about sealing the border (something the proposed Arizona law doesn’t begin to address) and the huffing and puffing about which party will produce the next Hitler.

686 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:35:56pm

re: #682 Sheepdogess

Do you like your Governor?

Do you like your Governor?
And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

687 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:36:53pm

re: #686 reine.de.tout

Do you like your Governor?
And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

She’s fishin’ for somethin’.

688 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:37:34pm

re: #687 b_sharp

She’s fishin’ for somethin’.

Yep.
I rarely engage “gaze”.
But it’s time now, I think.
See ya upstairs!

689 prairiefire  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:37:50pm

re: #677 Sheepdogess

Ahhh, Louisiana, bless you. You have my sympathy.
Been there.
Not sure it’s part of America ;^)
Come to WA State.

Who the hell are you to judge what is not a part of America?

690 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:38:31pm

re: #688 reine.de.tout

Yep.
I rarely engage “gaze”.
But it’s time now, I think.
See ya upstairs!

;-)

691 Sheepdogess  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:45:28pm

re: #684 reine.de.tout

I like him. I like his values.
Okay, he’s short. That doesn’t matter to me. I like him.

I have friends who have lived in and gone to school in LA, and they say it is very “different” in it’s politics.

I did not mean to insult youu.

This place, however, has gone from a ((thinking)) place to a {{{{feelings }}}place. I don’t do well in that environment. Forgive me. I did not mean to insult you.

We are a constitutional republic and not a democracy after all.
ttpen.wikipedia.org

692 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:47:07pm

re: #677 Sheepdogess

Ahhh, Louisiana, bless you. You have my sympathy.
Been there.
Not sure it’s part of America ;^)
Come to WA State.

NOW she lives here???

693 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:48:00pm

re: #677 Sheepdogess

[Dark_Falcon whacks Sheepdogess on the backside with a rolled up newspaper]

Cool it.

694 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:48:56pm

re: #691 Sheepdogess

I like him. I like his values.
Okay, he’s short. That doesn’t matter to me. I like him.

I have friends who have lived in and gone to school in LA, and they say it is very “different” in it’s politics.

I did not mean to insult youu.

This place, however, has gone from a ((thinking)) place to a {{{feelings }}}place. I don’t do well in that environment. Forgive me. I did not mean to insult you.

We are a constitutional republic and not a democracy after all.
ttp[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

This is still very much a thinking place. Some of the thoughts have changed, however.

695 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:48:56pm

re: #689 prairiefire

Who the hell are you to judge what is not a part of America?

if the logic on display is any indication, she’s not one to judge much of anything at all…yowza…

696 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:49:42pm

re: #692 Aceofwhat?

I am saddenned by this as well.

50 bucks says she lives in Moses Lake or Ritzville.

697 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:50:19pm

re: #691 Sheepdogess

if it were a thinking place, you’d have thought Reine was from LA the first time she answered you…or you’d have thought not to ask a more relevant question.

were all of the conversations in 2004 so touched?

698 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:51:05pm

re: #696 windsagio

I am saddenned by this as well.

50 bucks says she lives in Moses Lake or Ritzville.

‘touched’ is my new favorite gentle word, if you haven’t noticed yet…it’s grown on me like a bad goatee.

699 Sheepdogess  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:51:08pm

Fishing for Something?
Yeah, an answer.
How old are you people?
Paranoid?
Good heavens.

700 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:51:53pm

re: #698 Aceofwhat?

You know what else is good? The non gay reading of queer.


“That came off a little queerly”

701 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:52:05pm

re: #691 Sheepdogess


This place, however, has gone from a ((thinking)) place to a {{{feelings }}}place.

Now you insult the rest of us?

I think you need to start over, and think before you speak.

702 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:52:06pm

re: #699 Sheepdogess

Fishing for Something?
Yeah, an answer.
How old are you people?
Paranoid?
Good heavens.

can’t speak for everyone, but my eyebrow raises a bit when someone keeps asking a question that has already been answered.

703 cliffster  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:52:07pm

re: #699 Sheepdogess

dude.. really?

704 Mr Pancakes  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:52:15pm

re: #490 windsagio

Totally with you on that;

In my personal opinion the answer is full amnesty for anybody that can show they’re working, and further prosecution of the people you’re talking about. The business/political forces that want to keep them as a criminal underclass.

I must disagree here to full amnesty for illegals…… To do that would be a slap in the face to my wife who immigrated legally. It was a long (years), costly (thousands of dollars), painful process (separation, we had a daughter together) for us. Every step of the way was difficult. Then the State Department made it worse. I finally had to enlist the help of my congressman….. he took care of it.

705 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:53:21pm

re: #700 windsagio

You know what else is good? The non gay reading of queer.

“That came off a little queerly”

i like it. actually, i’d like to have that back from teh gheys. can we work on that?

706 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:53:59pm

re: #703 cliffster

dude.. really?

dudette, methinks. not that she’s shown a similar level of self-awareness…or awareness, for that matter…

707 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:54:05pm

re: #705 Aceofwhat?

Its not even about taking it back (that has bad connotations anyways).

You rule language, don’t let it rule yoU!

708 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:54:31pm

re: #706 Aceofwhat?

Maybe a bit of slack should be given for culture shock?

I’ve been in and out so I don’t really know.

709 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:55:15pm

re: #699 Sheepdogess

Fishing for Something?
Yeah, an answer.
How old are you people?
Paranoid?
Good heavens.

You first asked a question that was irrelevant, then you claim we can’t think, now we’re paranoid.

I suggest you stop this train of thought, join the other thread and start over.

710 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:56:24pm

re: #709 b_sharp

You first asked a question that was irrelevant, then you claim we can’t think, now we’re paranoid.

I suggest you stop this train of thought, join the other thread and start over.

Quite Concur.

711 Walking Spanish Down the Hall  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:56:38pm

re: #708 windsagio

Maybe a bit of slack should be given for culture shock?

I’ve been in and out so I don’t really know.

In and out? Have you tried up and down?

712 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:57:30pm

re: #699 Sheepdogess

Fishing for Something?
Yeah, an answer.
How old are you people?
Paranoid?
Good heavens.

Well.
You’ve asked a lot of questions, and 3 times I answered the question you put to me.

But you’re a bit short on the answering, yourself.

I know Jindal, I worked with him many years ago.
I voted for him.
He has been a severe disappointment to me, and many many others I knew who voted for him with enthusiasm and hope.

He’s reached as far as he’s going to go.

713 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:57:46pm

re: #708 windsagio

Maybe a bit of slack should be given for culture shock?

I’ve been in and out so I don’t really know.

eh…i don’t like to give newbies the WWF superfly elbow, but newbies and/or newly returned folks oughta follow the same rule i followed when i first started posting: you don’t know these people, so don’t get personal…period.

doesn’t seem like a lot to ask…and frankly, i’m always a bit disappointed when i HAVE to ask…

714 Sheepdogess  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 8:57:59pm

re: #697 Aceofwhat?

I didn’t see it.

Gotta feed the kids.
Homework.
Keeping his pants “off the ground”.
Sports.
Laundry.
Dishes.
E-mail from douchbags I dont’ want to answer.
Lawn mowin.
Fridge cleaning.
Seedling watering.
Keeping the neighbors cats from shitting in my vegetable gardens.
Paying my taxes.
Taking a fucking shower (when I have the time).
stretching my Achilles tendons.

Sorry.

715 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 9:00:42pm

re: #714 Sheepdogess

yep, we’re all busy too.

when the question is so important that you keep asking and asking and asking…try the ‘search’ thingy.

it’s all the rage.

plus, as an added benefit, it’s a helluva lot more polite than asking and asking and asking!

but you’ve been here since 2004, so you know this already…don’t you?

careful with that plantar fasciitis-

716 windsagio  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 9:01:38pm

re: #715 Aceofwhat?

A lot of new features have been added since 2k4. >>

717 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 9:04:08pm

re: #714 Sheepdogess

I understand. But please do relax a bit here. Your voice is a good one and it’s one that makes this blog a richer place. The people here are still good, so relax, contribute and enjoy yourself.

718 Mr Pancakes  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 9:08:38pm

re: #672 andres

Which is fine. But do Mexicans have to show their passports and long form birth certificate (remember, no short form allowed) to walk on the streets of Mexico?

No, and I’m not a supporter of that anywhere out of the blue.

719 andres  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 9:09:05pm

re: #704 Mr Pancakes

I must disagree here to full amnesty for illegals… To do that would be a slap in the face to my wife who immigrated legally. It was a long (years), costly (thousands of dollars), painful process (separation, we had a daughter together) for us. Every step of the way was difficult. Then the State Department made it worse. I finally had to enlist the help of my congressman… he took care of it.

That’s kinda like saying, since I walked 5 miles uphill to go to school, my grandsons should do the same, and skip the bus. If the process can be made more humane, the better.

Then, I’m not for full amnesty either, but a rather path of legalization.

720 tradewind  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 9:10:25pm

re: #544 LudwigVanQuixote
Good grief. We lived down the Nisei internment, for cripes sakes, without slipping into Nazi Amerikka, and that was much worse than this law.
De-hyperbolize thyself.

721 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 9:12:00pm

re: #716 windsagio

A lot of new features have been added since 2k4. >>

yep. ME!!

(i lacked the self-control to resist…)

722 Mr Pancakes  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 9:15:07pm

re: #719 andres

That’s kinda like saying, since I walked 5 miles uphill to go to school, my grandsons should do the same, and skip the bus. If the process can be made more humane, the better.

Then, I’m not for full amnesty either, but a rather path of legalization.

You are confusing a legal path vs. an illegal path……. and giving them equal measure.

723 Sheepdogess  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 9:27:30pm

re: #717 Dark_Falcon

I’m thinking about taking up fishing, to relax.
Any advice?

724 Mr Pancakes  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 9:31:34pm

re: #723 Sheepdogess

I’m thinking about taking up fishing, to relax.
Any advice?

Yes, take beer with you. If you don’t catch fish you can catch a buzz.

725 blueraven  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 10:22:44pm

re: #723 Sheepdogess

I’m thinking about taking up fishing, to relax.
Any advice?

How about a trip down to Louisiana? Great fishing down there. Great eating and fine people too.

726 kirkspencer  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:20:06am

I hate coming late to the party, but I need to kick this idea out.

The law requires 100% enforcement. An agency that’s slacking is subject to a ‘concerned citizen’ lawsuit. If the agency looses, it pays the citizen’s court costs plus a chunk of money. Knowing that, I foresee an activist trick.

Bring a bunch of caucasian tourists into the state. Put them in cars with recorders. Do minor activities such as running red lights — things that give law enforcement reason to pull you over. Record whether one of the questions for the out-of-stater is “Do you have proof you’re not an unlawful alien?”

When the inevitable pattern arises that there is NOT 100% enforcement, begin the lawsuits. After a couple of these, let it be known you’re going to a bunch more Arizona communities. Watch everybody suddenly have to carry Papers. Watch the joyous reactions.


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