George Will Misrepresents Climate Change Study

Science • Views: 3,203

No matter where you stand on the issue of anthropogenic climate change, surely we can all agree that misrepresenting facts isn’t going to help anyone understand the subject—and calls into question the motives of those who do it: The Sea Ice Affair, Continued.

Monday I bemoaned the lack of fact-checking of opinion pieces in newspapers, pointing to a George Will column on global warming in the Washington Post as evidence. Now the Washington Post op-ed folks claim that it was in fact heavily fact-checked. All I can say is that none of them better apply for a fact-checking job here at Discover.

To recap: George Will wrote a column in which he tried to downplay the evidence that global warming has already affected the Earth, and that it will have bigger impacts in the future. Various bloggers have pointed out examples where Will misrepresented scientific studies in this column. The most glaring one was this: “According to the University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research Center, global sea ice levels now equal those of 1979.”

The Research Center put a statement on their site explaining that Will was wrong. On February 15, the day Will wrote his column, there was substantially less ice than on February 15, 1979: the area of Texas, California, and Oklahoma combined.

Read the whole thing…

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890 comments
1 kynna  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:22:46pm

Why misrepresent facts when the facts are on your side?

Habit?

2 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:23:40pm

This'll be fun.

3 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:24:03pm

Yep, a damned sensor screwed up. So much for this crap being anywhere near 'pure science'. This crap has less credibility than does cold fusion.

4 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:24:35pm

re: #1 kynna

Good question. Maybe the facts aren't on his side.

5 Sponge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:25:17pm

Don't they all just have to quote al-Gore and it will be taken as gospel?

6 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:25:51pm

But on Drudge, there is this on yesterday's and today's site:
Sorry, I can't figure out how to do these links when it isn't direct. Okay, I'm afraid to try, but here:

By Alex Morales

Feb. 20 (Bloomberg) -- A glitch in satellite sensors caused scientists to underestimate the extent of Arctic sea ice by 500,000 square kilometers (193,000 square miles), a California- size area, the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center said.

The error, due to a problem called “sensor drift,” began in early January and caused a slowly growing underestimation of sea ice extent until mid-February. That’s when “puzzled readers” alerted the NSIDC about data showing ice-covered areas as stretches of open ocean, the Boulder, Colorado-based group said on its Web site.

“Sensor drift, although infrequent, does occasionally occur and it is one of the things that we account for during quality- control measures prior to archiving the data,” the center said. “Although we believe that data prior to early January are reliable, we will conduct a full quality check.’’

The extent of Arctic sea ice is seen as a key measure of how rising temperatures are affecting the Earth. The cap retreated in 2007 to its lowest extent ever and last year posted its second- lowest annual minimum at the end of the yearly melt season. The recent error doesn’t change findings that Arctic ice is retreating, the NSIDC said.

The center said real-time data on sea ice is always less reliable than archived numbers because full checks haven’t yet been carried out. Historical data is checked across other sources, it said.

The NSIDC uses Department of Defense satellites to obtain its Arctic sea ice data rather than more accurate National Aeronautics and Space Administration equipment. That’s because the defense satellites have a longer period of historical data, enabling scientists to draw conclusions about long-term ice melt, the center said.

“There is a balance between being as accurate as possible at any given moment and being as consistent as possible through long time-periods,” NSIDC said. “Our main scientific focus is on the long-term changes in Arctic sea ice.”

7 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:26:32pm

OT: Eating my homemade lox on a creamcheese bagel. Very delicious.

8 kynna  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:27:01pm

re: #5 Sponge

Don't they all just have to quote al-Gore and it will be taken as gospel?

Or start a sentence with, "now that we've got a good president...". Instant credibility. :p

9 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:27:11pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

OT: Eating my homemade lox on a creamcheese bagel. Very delicious.

*whimper*

10 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:27:38pm

Here I was thinking that Will was one of the good guys. Is this an anomoly?

11 Kragar  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:27:47pm

Good read

12 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:27:54pm

For 95% of earth's climate history, there was no ice at the poles, according to my encyclopedia Brittanica. (print version, 1980 (or '81), article on "Climatic Change".)

13 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:28:46pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

OT: Eating my homemade lox on a creamcheese bagel. Very delicious.

Is it cat tested, or are we witnessing a live Trout test?

14 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:29:39pm

I liked this comment

Rogue Medic Says:
February 20th, 2009 at 4:38 am

A much better distinction between fact checking and meaning checking. While the accurate facts, taken out of context can suggest a perverse meaning. A meaning that the same facts contradict, when examined in the proper context. The noisier the data, the more prone they are to misrepresentation. The noisier the data the more likely that any representation is a misrepresentation. Using noisy data is bad science.
15 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:30:08pm

Help! Aren't we, in geologic terms about midway between the last ice age and the next? IIRC, ice ages occur about every 50,000 years. The last one ended about 12k years ago. So shouldn't it be getting warmer?

16 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:30:49pm

Charles You're Wrong.

The satellite images underestimated the ice in the arctic by a ice sheet the size of California.

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

17 Kragar  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:30:55pm

re: #12 Ojoe

For 95% of earth's climate history, there was no ice at the poles, according to my encyclopedia Brittanica. (print version, 1980 (or '81), article on "Climatic Change".)

Well, that accounts for 9,500 years.

/Discovery Institute

18 Sponge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:31:26pm

The fact that they have data they've never had before and really don't know what really has been happening since the beginning of time, don't they think they should just keep compiling data to determine whether these things the earth just 'does' because that's what it does?

I don't know.....maybe I'm just really really dumb, I guess.

19 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:32:22pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

OT: Eating my homemade lox on a creamcheese bagel. Very delicious.

Kilgore, long ago, before I knew what lox or bagels were, I read an article in the New Yorker about lox and bagels--the graphics were bagels (which I thought were some sort of doughnut!) with padlocks on them! That image has stayed with me. Now that I live in an area where Jewish delis are around almost every corner (hyperbole), I still smile when I think about that story--of which I remember absolutely nothing!

20 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:32:36pm

A very concise debunking of Will's article....
George Will's climate howlers
Read it. I'm as skeptical about global warming as the next guy but Will is on par with the creationists here.

21 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:32:48pm

I swear, this is the coldest winter in the 6000 years of Earth's History

/ducks

22 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:33:00pm

re: #16 Devil's Advocate

Charles You're Wrong.

The satellite images underestimated the ice in the arctic by a ice sheet the size of California.

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

Before you tell me I'm wrong, you might want to actually read what I posted. You're citing a completely different study, by a different organization.

23 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:34:00pm

I'm no scientist so I am no expert on AGW. What I do know is that the Global Warming or "Climate Change" debate has been hijacked by alarmists like Al Gore who are only interested in padding their pockets and getting rich. I don't believe for a second that Al Gore's motivations are purely altruistic. Until folks like him start practicing what they preach, I'll be a skeptic on the whole issue.

I do like this website for some good scientific AGW research.

24 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:34:07pm

re: #13 jaunte

Is it cat tested, or are we witnessing a live Trout test?

It's a little over salted so I skipped the cat test (salt isn't good for them) and I'm doing it myself. So far so good.

25 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:34:55pm

re: #17 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Well, that accounts for 9,500 years.

/Discovery Institute

My dad had his own business (geophysical) searching for oil--seismographic work. We went with him to Alaska in the early 50s. He took me to Point Barrow and told me that the reason there was oil under all of that ice was that there were once forests growing there.

26 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:36:01pm

re: #22 Charles

Before you tell me I'm wrong, you might want to actually read what I posted. You're citing a completely different study, by a different organization.

I know it was a different org.

But, unless I missed something: The ice size from the link you cited uses the values from early to mid-February, which were unknowingly underestimated, according to the later article that I linked to.

27 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:37:12pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

A very concise debunking of Will's article....
George Will's climate howlers
Read it. I'm as skeptical about global warming as the next guy but Will is on par with the creationists here.

I read here sometime recently that he is NOT a creationist.

Oh, wait. You're comparing his treatment of science the way DI treats it.

28 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:37:36pm

re: #10 MandyManners

Here I was thinking that Will was one of the good guys. Is this an anomoly?

I think Will is a smart guy, but science is not his forte.

29 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:37:58pm

Washington Post refuses any corrections to Will's column:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

30 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:37:59pm

re: #12 Ojoe

For 95% of earth's climate history, there was no ice at the poles, according to my encyclopedia Brittanica. (print version, 1980 (or '81), article on "Climatic Change".)

Oh the poor polar bears!

31 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:38:10pm

re: #26 Devil's Advocate

I know it was a different org.

But, unless I missed something: The ice size from the link you cited uses the values from early to mid-February, which were unknowingly underestimated, according to the later article that I linked to.

Look. The simple fact is that George Will made a false statement in that article. The University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research Center did not say what he claimed they said.

32 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:39:18pm

re: #28 katemaclaren

I think Will is a smart guy, but science is not his forte.

I'll listen to the 650 skeptics

33 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:40:22pm

"George's Willful Ignorance on this topic has persisted for years":
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

34 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:40:37pm

The criticism of Will is BDS quality, one can quibble with some of his statements but there are no howlers, for example I can see no particularly clear truth to the sea-ice piece, especially considering this sensor-error report that has recently followed.

35 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:40:55pm

re: #29 Basho

Washington Post refuses any corrections to Will's column:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

So? they have a fantasy to uphold as being a truth.

36 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:41:38pm

re: #15 pingjockey

Help! Aren't we, in geologic terms about midway between the last ice age and the next? IIRC, ice ages occur about every 50,000 years. The last one ended about 12k years ago. So shouldn't it be getting warmer?

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

37 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:41:45pm

re: #34 itellu3times

The criticism of Will is BDS quality, one can quibble with some of his statements but there are no howlers, for example I can see no particularly clear truth to the sea-ice piece, especially considering this sensor-error report that has recently followed.

so his report is fake but accurate?

38 jimzinsocal  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:42:14pm

I wish I knew who was right. It shouldnt be rocket science.
I read this and I dont know who to believe.

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

39 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:42:47pm

re: #34 itellu3times

The criticism of Will is BDS quality, one can quibble with some of his statements but there are no howlers, for example I can see no particularly clear truth to the sea-ice piece, especially considering this sensor-error report that has recently followed.

The howler is that Will claimed that the University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research Center said something, and it didn't. That is a fact.

It's really simple.

40 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:43:01pm

re: #27 MandyManners

Yeah, I don't think he's a creationist but his tactics are similar. I don't think he's being honest. There's plenty of room for genuine debate without creating a separate reality.

41 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:44:07pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I don't think he's a creationist but his tactics are similar. I don't think he's being honest. There's plenty of room for genuine debate without creating a separate reality.

Salt is not good for you.

42 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:44:29pm

Here's the website of the University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research Center: Polar Sea Ice Cap and Snow - Cryosphere Today.

43 Buster Bunny  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:44:34pm

But ... but ... do they have any transitional climate change models? The ice in the Arctic disproves Darwins theory on evolutionary climate !

I mean .. climate change just happened. 6000 years ago the first Democrat proclaimed .. let there be porkulus .. and lo .. there was porkulus ! And there was enough for every Democrat to share .. the other people just didnt count.

And no Democrat had to ever work again .. as long as there were people to lie to and steal from.

/The End?

44 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:44:47pm

re: #38 jimzinsocal

I wish I knew who was right. It shouldnt be rocket science.
I read this and I dont know who to believe.

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

Time for politics to come out from research (think of a statement from researcher to funder "what results do you want?"). This crap is politically driven.

45 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:44:55pm

re: #37 Shug

so his report is fake but accurate?

Will gives his references, make what you will of them. The criticism is that he is giving "a selective reading", but the critic does NOT present alternative evidence.

46 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:44:57pm

Charles,

Have you had a chance to check out those first two sites I emailed a while back? Very good reading, in my opinion. Hope you enjoyed.

47 jimzinsocal  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:45:09pm

^^My bad. I hadnt read all the comments. Sorry bout that

48 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:45:38pm

re: #31 Charles

Look. The simple fact is that George Will made a false statement in that article. The University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research Center did not say what he claimed they said.

I concede the following points:

1) The University of Illinois' Arctic Climate Research Center did not say what he claimed they said.

But,

2) I think the main issues is whether or not what he said was true about the size of the ice mass after all;

3) If the Arctic ice was underestimated by a mass the size of California, then it is possible that nobody was in a position to judge the size of the ice on February 15th...including the scientists;

4) In that case, the truth is that the ice is actually increasing in size;

5) The scientists were using data that was inaccurate and should not have been used to refute what George Will's ultimate argument was: That Ice is the same as it was around 1979, rather than what Al Gore and the alarmists are saying.

49 J.D.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:45:38pm

OT
Arrest Near in Killing of Chandra Levy, Authorities Say

50 Dianna  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:46:15pm

re: #31 Charles

Look. The simple fact is that George Will made a false statement in that article. The University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research Center did not say what he claimed they said.

Then the Post needs to issue a correction, and Will needs to issue an apology. Even if it were simple confusion, it's an error.

No one is served by dishonesty.

That I don't think Anthropogenic Global Warming is real is neither here nor there.

51 LionOfDixon  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:46:48pm

Maybe Obama's ways are rubbing off on ol' George.

52 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:47:56pm

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

The howler is that Will claimed that the University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research Center said something, and it didn't. That is a fact.

It's really simple.

I don't see it.

On January 1, 2009, an article by Michael Asher entitled “Sea Ice Ends Year at Same Level as 1979” appeared on the Daily Tech website.

That's the lead sentence in the article, so Will refered to a reference in the article rather than the article's own contents. So, let's look at those contents. They - quibble. They say the trends point down. They do NOT contradict the cold (!) fact in the lead sentence that Will cited.

53 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:48:01pm

re: #48 Devil's Advocate

You know. This is what kills it all the time. Critical thinking skills go right out the window when you issue a "but."

Charles was right. Period. Will was wrong (or deceptive). Period. End of story, no but.

54 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:48:36pm

The Global Warming Cult should be utterly and totally destroyed. Preferably, that should be done by showing how it's unarguably a load of politically motivated horseshit. But what do you do when facts don't matter to these people. The side that is right on this shouldn't have any need to cheat. There should be no lingering questions (there's no question in my mind, mind you), and playing by their rules will only leave these loose ends untied.

I don't think much of George Will, though. I don't think he pulls much water these days, anyhow. A lot of people just bust out laughing when the guy starts to speak. The guy acts like he could bend rebar with his sphincter.

55 Buster Bunny  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:50:47pm

re: #44 Perplexed

Time for politics to come out from research (think of a statement from researcher to funder "what results do you want?"). This crap is politically driven.

You will never separate politics and research. The number of times when I was a lab student that our professors were kissing the buttocks of a politician to get some funding on some scheme or an extension on a project .. was more than I care to count. Politics pays the bills .. the research is secondary.

It does help however if you are working on true models to start with.

56 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:51:38pm

AGW : liberals :: creationism : conservatives

The only difference is that the liberals have hollyweird and the media on their side. Creepy faith-based "science" is creepy, period.

Note that AGW had to become "climate change" just like creationism had to become "intelligent design."

chemistry is still chemistry

57 carefulnow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:52:34pm

re: #48 Devil's Advocate

What do you think of quote mining? Are you fer it or 'gainst it?

58 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:53:30pm

re: #57 carefulnow

What do you think of quote mining? Are you fer it or 'gainst it?

I'm against it...why?

59 SurferDoc  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:53:33pm

re: #54 Salem

I might have dinged you down by mistake. I reversed it. (Trying to eat lunch and post at the same time. Gah.)

60 J.D.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:55:13pm

In China, Clinton Focuses on Climate

61 carefulnow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:55:14pm

re: #58 Devil's Advocate

Because it appears that that is what George Will and his "fact checkers" did.

62 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:55:19pm

Okay, in my opinion the global warming movement is purely diabolical. I shouldn't get worked up about it but I hate to see thinking people playing their game by calling in anthropogenic climate change because Gore's henchman have no issue with changing the terminology in the middle of the debate.

63 Buster Bunny  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:55:43pm

re: #56 funky chicken

AGW : liberals :: creationism : conservatives

The only difference is that the liberals have hollyweird and the media on their side. Creepy faith-based "science" is creepy, period.

Note that AGW had to become "climate change" just like creationism had to become "intelligent design."

chemistry is still chemistry

I was up late at night about three weeks ago .. and they had a rescreening of one of the IN SEARCH OF episodes .. remember .. with Spock (Leonard Nimoy) hosting?

Well that was 70s .. and guess what they were busy worrying about at that stage? Yes thats right .. the serious possibility of a global cooling period.

This has been done before .. its just they were wrong .. so they did it differently this time.

64 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:55:58pm

re: #56 funky chicken

chemistry is still chemistry

Still waiting for them to find an ozone hole over either Dallas or Houston. Wondering how freon, a heavier than air chemical migrated from hot places to the polar regions only to wind up 10-50km off the ground. Also wonder how freon remained a gas at -60 F temperatures.

65 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:57:25pm

re: #63 Buster Bunny

I was up late at night about three weeks ago .. and they had a rescreening of one of the IN SEARCH OF episodes .. remember .. with Spock (Leonard Nimoy) hosting?

Well that was 70s .. and guess what they were busy worrying about at that stage? Yes thats right .. the serious possibility of a global cooling period.

This has been done before .. its just they were wrong .. so they did it differently this time.


You will enjoy this newsweek article

66 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:58:02pm

Charles -

I tend to believe that the Earth IS Warming. I also tend to believe it is nearly entirely due to cycles of the Sun and Planets with man's actions playing a rather insignificant part. That is to say - Not Much We Can Do About It.

-S-

67 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:58:08pm

re: #64 Perplexed

chemistry is still chemistry

Still waiting for them to find an ozone hole over either Dallas or Houston. Wondering how freon, a heavier than air chemical migrated from hot places to the polar regions only to wind up 10-50km off the ground. Also wonder how freon remained a gas at -60 F temperatures.

Magic.

End of discussion. Now quit burning fossil fuels.

/
//
///

68 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:58:17pm

re: #61 carefulnow

Because it appears that that is what George Will and his "fact checkers" did.

But, this is what I don't seem to understand.

Is the main issue: Whether or not the ice is increasing?

Or, is the main issue: Whether George Will uses less than accurate means, but ultimately ended up making a factual statement in the end?

I think the main issue is the 1st. Those who attacked Will used underestimated data to attack his underlying argument to then argue themselves that the ice was decreasing (which we now know isn't true).

69 Buster Bunny  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:58:22pm

re: #64 Perplexed

chemistry is still chemistry

Still waiting for them to find an ozone hole over either Dallas or Houston. Wondering how freon, a heavier than air chemical migrated from hot places to the polar regions only to wind up 10-50km off the ground. Also wonder how freon remained a gas at -60 F temperatures.

My main worry is despite the chloroflurocarbon pollutions .. the sulfurs .. the dioxins .. and of course the radioactive wastes we produce .. we are panicking about totally reusable .. recyclable .. carbon dioxide?

70 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:58:55pm

re: #66 Dr. Shalit

Charles -

I tend to believe that the Earth IS Warming. I also tend to believe it is nearly entirely due to cycles of the Sun and Planets with man's actions playing a rather insignificant part. That is to say - Not Much We Can Do About It.

-S-

Ten thousand up dings for a person who gets it right.

71 Killian Bundy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:59:11pm

Priest who aided lepers in Hawaii to become saint

A 19th-century Belgian priest who ministered to leprosy patients in Hawaii will be declared a saint Oct. 11 at a Vatican ceremony presided over by Pope Benedict XVI.

The Rev. Damien de Veuster's canonization date was set Saturday during a meeting between Benedict and cardinals at the Apostolic Palace.

De Veuster will be canonized along with four other people, the Vatican said.

In July, Benedict approved a miracle attributed to the priest's intercession, declaring that a Honolulu woman's recovery in 1999 from terminal lung cancer was the miracle needed for him to be made a saint.

. . .

The Vatican's saint-making procedures require that a miracle attributed to the candidate's intercession be confirmed in order for him or her to be beatified. Damien de Veuster was beatified after the Vatican declared that the 1987 recovery of a nun of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary was a miracle. The nun recovered from an illness after praying to Damien.

Well, recovering from terminal lung cancer would be a miracle.

/Damien de Veuster makes Bobby Jindal look like a piker

72 J.D.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:00:07pm

OT
Obama Upholds Detainee Policy in Afghanistan

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration has told a federal judge that military detainees in Afghanistan have no legal right to challenge their imprisonment there, embracing a key argument of former President Bush’s legal team.

In a two-sentence filing late Friday, the Justice Department said that the new administration had reviewed its position in a case brought by prisoners at the United States Air Force base at Bagram, just north of the Afghan capital. The Obama team determined that the Bush policy was correct: such prisoners cannot sue for their release.

“Having considered the matter, the government adheres to its previously articulated position,” wrote Michael F. Hertz, acting assistant attorney general.

The closely watched case is a habeas corpus lawsuit on behalf of several prisoners who have been indefinitely detained for years without trial. The detainees argue that they are not enemy combatants, and they want a judge to review the evidence against them and order the military to release them.

The Bush administration had argued that federal courts have no jurisdiction to hear such a case because the prisoners are noncitizens being held in the course of military operations outside the United States. The Obama team was required to take a stand on whether those arguments were correct because a federal district judge, John D. Bates, asked the new government whether it wanted to alter that position.

The Obama administration’s decision was generally expected among legal specialists. But it was a blow to human rights lawyers who have challenged the Bush administration’s policy of indefinitely detaining “enemy combatants” without trials.

The power of civilian federal judges to review individual decisions by the executive branch to hold a terrorism suspect as an enemy combatant was one of the most contentious legal issues surrounding the Bush administration. For years, President Bush’s legal team argued that federal judges had no authority under the Constitution to hear challenges by detainees being held at the military prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, and elsewhere.

The Supreme Court rejected the Bush administration’s legal view for prisoners held at Guantánamo in landmark rulings in 2004 and 2006. But those rulings were based on the idea that the prison was on United States soil for constitutional purposes, based on the unique legal circumstances and history of the naval base.

Rights lawyers have been hoping that courts would extend those rulings to allow long-term detainees being held at United States military bases elsewhere in the world to sue for release, too. There are about 600 detainees at Bagram and several thousand in Iraq. ...

73 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:00:15pm

re: #41 Walter L. Newton

I've become very salt sensitive over the years. If I eat fast food or a frozen pizza i have to chug water for the next 12 hours. My lox is slightly more salted than the store bought but still edible.

74 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:00:17pm

re: #68 Devil's Advocate

Or, is the main issue: Whether George Will uses less than accurate means, but ultimately ended up making a factual statement in the end?

This really isn't difficult to understand. George Will made a false statement. You're sounding an awful lot like the CBS "fake but accurate" excuse.

75 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:00:36pm

re: #69 Buster Bunny

And when we begin dumping mega tons of water vapor into the atmosphere won't that contribute to global warming as well?

76 Killian Bundy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:00:41pm

re: #71 Killian Bundy

Oops.

/forgot the blockquote

77 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:01:43pm

If anyone sees Winston06 tell him I remembered to ask and I have info for him.

78 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:01:47pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

OT: Eating my homemade lox on a creamcheese bagel. Very delicious.

o/t I just looked at that link you have about Fight Club typography. Wow. I haven't seen Fight Club--would you recommend it?

79 MacGregor  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:02:24pm

re: #56 funky chicken

The new buzz word now is "sustainability", meaning over-riding natural chaos, which seems unrealistic to me.

80 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:02:27pm

OT - A must read for all Comrades

"President Obama is putting the finishing touches on an ambitious first budget that seeks to cut the federal deficit in half over the next four years, primarily by raising taxes on business and the wealthy and by slashing spending on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, administration officials said."

That's a good idea. Now that he has the "common" folk in the pocket of the government, now let's take anyone left and put the squeeze on them. And then we break the backs of the other profitable businesses so we can nationalize them.

Checklist.

1) Make lower and middle class beholden to the government. (done)

2) Nationalize (or at least have many fingers) in banks and financial institutions. (done)

3) Kill the upper class by talking away their money, They can go to number 1. (pending)

4) Kill what's left of the profitable businesses and then nationalize (or have many fingers) in them. (pending)

5) Welcome to the Democratic Socialist States of America (pending)

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

81 Buster Bunny  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:02:28pm

re: #70 Perplexed

Ten thousand up dings for a person who gets it right.

Problem with that. With an allocation per person of one upding per person, you are going to need to find 999 extra friends to implement that strategy?

Hosting Amway anytime soon?

82 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:03:41pm

Is there anyone who doesn't think the environmentalist re: #59 SurferDoc

I might have dinged you down by mistake. I reversed it. (Trying to eat lunch and post at the same time. Gah.)

I appreciate it. I hope I didn't ruffle anyone's feathers. It seems like a no-brainer to me but it is just my opinion.

83 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:04:45pm

re: #78 katemaclaren

I know it's a cliche but try to read the book first. The movie is great too. They marketed the movie as a stupid macho Brad Pitt vehicle but it's very different than what it appears. Don't google too much about the story because it will spoil it for you.

84 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:04:52pm

Will's statement from his column:

“According to the University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research Center, global sea ice levels now equal those of 1979.”

The University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research Center's actual position:

In an opinion piece by George Will published on February 15, 2009 in the Washington Post, George Will states “According to the University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research Center, global sea ice levels now equal those of 1979.”

We do not know where George Will is getting his information, but our data shows that on February 15, 1979, global sea ice area was 16.79 million sq. km and on February 15, 2009, global sea ice area was 15.45 million sq. km. Therefore, global sea ice levels are 1.34 million sq. km less in February 2009 than in February 1979. This decrease in sea ice area is roughly equal to the area of Texas, California, and Oklahoma combined.

It is disturbing that the Washington Post would publish such information without first checking the facts.

85 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:05:06pm

re: #71 Killian Bundy

You know, I vaguely remember that this priest was a peripheral character in James Michener's book, Hawaii. Vaguely.

86 Buster Bunny  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:05:08pm

re: #74 Charles

This really isn't difficult to understand. George Will made a false statement. You're sounding an awful like the CBS "fake but accurate" excuse.

Charles .. I only watch CBS now for the comedy value.

87 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:05:08pm

re: #66 Dr. Shalit

Charles -

I tend to believe that the Earth IS Warming. I also tend to believe it is nearly entirely due to cycles of the Sun and Planets with man's actions playing a rather insignificant part. That is to say - Not Much We Can Do About It.

-S-

The turtles can't stay on path, occasional they wander closer to the sun or farther away.....
////

88 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:06:01pm

Wow, this thread isn't getting a lot of bonus dingage.

89 Killian Bundy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:06:13pm

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

cut the federal deficit in half over the next four years, primarily by raising taxes on business and the wealthy

/20 words, four figure DOW drop

90 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:06:44pm

re: #74 Charles

This really isn't difficult to understand. George Will made a false statement. You're sounding an awful lot like the CBS "fake but accurate" excuse.

I concede I am making an identical argument to CBS.

But, with the issue of CBS, the main issue was the man himself: George Bush. We were deciding whether or not George Bush was qualified to be in office, and in that case, absolute accuracy was of vital importance before the election.

In this case, the main issue is not the man himself: George Will. But, rather the truth about the size of the ice caps.

Even so, new evidence has surfaced that IS accurate about the increasing size of the ice, while no credible evidence has ever been found about George W. Bush.

91 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:07:31pm

I see we have a down-dinger who doesn't see anything wrong with misrepresenting facts.

92 calcajun  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:07:51pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

OT: Eating my homemade lox on a creamcheese bagel. Very delicious.

Did you bring enough for everyone?

93 brookly red  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:08:00pm

re: #89 Killian Bundy

/20 words, four figure DOW drop

/well you can't just outlaw private property all at once, sheeesh!

94 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:08:17pm

re: #68 Devil's Advocate

Or, is the main issue: Whether George Will uses less than accurate means, but ultimately ended up making a factual statement in the end?

I think you are a person that would compromise your principals to justify an end. If you really have to ask that question, then it makes you no better than any other dishonest politician, priest, pastor, businessman or the person next store who would screw their fellow man as long as they got their point made (or got their way).

I wouldn't want you in the same lifeboat with me.

95 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:08:33pm

re: #92 calcajun

Yes, but I'm not sharing anyways.

96 kingkenrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:08:47pm

Will has made a career out of arguing things he know little about badly. But I "read the whole thing" and remain unconvinced that Will is spreading
disinformation. He's guilty of not being a climate scientist, I guess, and perhaps misunderstanding a statement like “Observed global sea ice area, defined here as a sum of N. Hemisphere and S. Hemisphere sea ice areas, is near or slightly lower than those observed in late 1979,”.

The U of I doesn't seem to be able to state what it believes clearly.

Compare what George Will says to what Al Gore has been saying for years. Neither are climate experts, but I say if we want to be fair, let's see a headline at LGF for every lie Al Gore puts into print.

97 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:08:54pm

re: #83 Killgore Trout

I know it's a cliche but try to read the book first. The movie is great too. They marketed the movie as a stupid macho Brad Pitt vehicle but it's very different than what it appears. Don't google too much about the story because it will spoil it for you.

Boy do I feel dumb (and I teach lit!--old lit, I guess, when you count Chaucer and Shakespeare, Milton, et al) did not even KNOW that Fight Club was a book. Oh the shame. (hangs head)

98 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:09:05pm

10 Years After

Everywhere is freaks and hairies
Dykes and fairies, tell me where is sanity
Tax the rich, feed the poor
Till there are no rich no more?

I'd love to change the world
But I don't know what to do
So I'll leave it up to you

Population keeps on breeding
Nation bleeding, still more feeding economy
Life is funny, skies are sunny
Bees make honey, who needs money, Monopoly

I'd love to change the world
But I don't know what to do
So I'll leave it up to you

World pollution, there's no solution
Institution, electrocution
Just black and white, rich or poor
Them and us, stop the war

I'd love to change the world
But I don't know what to do
So I'll leave it up to you

99 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:09:12pm

Now we have two down-dingers in favor of lying.

100 Buster Bunny  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:09:35pm

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

Walt .. they just fingered UBS - swiss bank and got them to provide the details of EVERY American who has an account with them..

This has repercussions throughout the financial world. People cant own a swiss bank account anymore on the basis of privacy and anonymity.

The Obamatron has just got started. And yes .. out of this swiss bank stuff .. affluent heads will roll.

101 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:09:41pm

Funny, I don't feel warmer.

102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:09:54pm

re: #97 katemaclaren

Boy do I feel dumb (and I teach lit!--old lit, I guess, when you count Chaucer and Shakespeare, Milton, et al) did not even KNOW that Fight Club was a book. Oh the shame. (hangs head)

Uh... you're really not supposed to talk about it.

103 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:10:05pm

re: #75 Perplexed

And when we begin dumping mega tons of water vapor into the atmosphere won't that contribute to global warming as well?

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

104 LionOfDixon  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:10:21pm

You are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your facts.
An axiom to live by....

105 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:10:36pm

re: #96 kingkenrod

Will has made a career out of arguing things he know little about badly. But I "read the whole thing" and remain unconvinced that Will is spreading
disinformation. He's guilty of not being a climate scientist, I guess, and perhaps misunderstanding a statement like “Observed global sea ice area, defined here as a sum of N. Hemisphere and S. Hemisphere sea ice areas, is near or slightly lower than those observed in late 1979,”.

The U of I doesn't seem to be able to state what it believes clearly.

The UI's statement seems perfectly clear to me.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

106 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:10:43pm

re: #89 Killian Bundy

/20 words, four figure DOW drop


Destroy the tax base while increasing entitlement spending. Obviously Obama didn't take a math class
Less in, more out= higher deficits.

107 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:11:54pm

re: #93 brookly red

/well you can't just outlaw private property all at once, sheeesh!

There's Kelo. Condemn it and hand it over to ACORN.

I wish it was /

108 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:12:36pm

re: #96 kingkenrod

, let's see a headline at LGF for every lie Al Gore puts into print.


not sure the hamsters could handle that workload

109 J.D.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:12:45pm

re: #106 n in wi

Destroy the tax base while increasing entitlement spending. Obviously Obama didn't take a math class
Less in, more out= higher deficits.

His undergraduate degree was in Political Science.

Too bad it wasn't Economics.

110 Spiny Norman  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:13:00pm

re: #32 Shug

re: #28 katemaclaren

I think Will is a smart guy, but science is not his forte.

I'll listen to the 650 skeptics

Hasn't it be proven that they are all paid shills for Big Oil?

/

George Will is not helping...

111 SurferDoc  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:13:30pm

Global Warming is/was slim science at best. It's been co-opted by the left for political reasons and turned into an article of faith. Anyone who tries to dispute it gets howled down. "The science is settled." No. Never. Science must always be open to the next observation, the next critique, the next fact.

112 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:13:31pm

re: #83 Killgore Trout

Yesterday, I went to B&N and bought two OLD books to read: Atlas Shrugs (I know, I know) and 1984. It's been many a year since I have read these, and I'm teaching a course in the summer where I'll be using these.
But my curiosity is so piqued by Fight Club, that I think I might go out and get it. I need something arresting to show one of my classes--and this may be it. I'll take your advice and not find out any more--and let you know what I think! Thanks!

113 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:13:33pm

re: #62 Salem

Okay, in my opinion the global warming movement is purely diabolical. I shouldn't get worked up about it but I hate to see thinking people playing their game by calling in anthropogenic climate change because Gore's henchman have no issue with changing the terminology in the middle of the debate.

No worries.

All those people who just got laid off can give a rats ass about their carbon footprint right about now.

114 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:13:45pm

re: #106 n in wi

Destroy the tax base while increasing entitlement spending. Obviously Obama didn't take a math class
Less in, more out= higher deficits.

Barry told Joe the Plumber what was needed, "to "distribute the wealth." I usually believe someone until they do something to break that trust. So far, Barry has been 100 percent honest.

115 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:13:48pm

re: #99 Charles

Now we have two down-dingers in favor of lying.

re: #94 Walter L. Newton

I think you are a person that would compromise your principals to justify an end. If you really have to ask that question, then it makes you no better than any other dishonest politician, priest, pastor, businessman or the person next store who would screw their fellow man as long as they got their point made (or got their way).

I wouldn't want you in the same lifeboat with me.

I don't emphasize lying at all; to the contrary. I am most concerned with the ultimate truth of whether or not the Ice is melting.

Say for instance that Al Gore has been lying all along (believing there was no Global Warming and saying it was). The important question for society is still to determine if there is Global Warming after all, rather than to focus on Gore, Will or people like James Hansen.

I like to attack Hansen and Gore because I believe they are charlatans, and it is emotionally satisfying to bash them. But, in the end we need to step back from the people making claims and address the very claims independently of those people making them.

116 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:14:00pm

re: #103 Basho

Varies as a function of temperature? You get a smoke stack, a hydrogen burning car, etc and begin dumping megatons of water vapor (that didn't naturally occur) into the air and you have a greenhouse gas that is 'forcing' climate change. Got to try harder basho.

117 Neo Con since 9-11  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:14:04pm

Discover Magazine used to be a pretty reliable science journal but lately they've been infested with leftists who will try to twist anything to suit their political advantage. Take this hack, Melissa Lafsky, for example that Discover recently hired. For the Huffington post she wrote
"Was 9/11 Really That Bad?" Depends On Whom You Ask
Sarah Palin and the Julia Allison School of Female Achievement
Sorry but I don't trust anything coming from Discover magazine or their blogs any longer

118 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:15:01pm

re: #97 katemaclaren

Chuck Palahniuk is this generation's Kurt Vonnegut. Fight Club is his most popular book but Choke is well worth reading too. He's a bit darker than Vonnegut and I suspect he has a pretty strong Zen influence. Some of his stuff can be pretty disturbing but it isn't just about shock value. He's one of the only modern fiction writers who actually seems to have something to say. Give him a try.

119 Dirk Diggler  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:15:20pm

Global warming is a distraction from the gravest threat that humanity faces: Military-robot mutiny.

120 brookly red  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:16:14pm

re: #107 jcm

There's Kelo. Condemn it and hand it over to ACORN.

I wish it was /

Well I was talking about the market, but ouch, your right... not much difference between an account & a property.

121 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:16:32pm

re: #100 Buster Bunny

Walt .. they just fingered UBS - swiss bank and got them to provide the details of EVERY American who has an account with them..

This has repercussions throughout the financial world. People cant own a swiss bank account anymore on the basis of privacy and anonymity.

The Obamatron has just got started. And yes .. out of this swiss bank stuff .. affluent heads will roll.

That's right, lets get those tax cheats, unless their in the White House. Or on the Ways and Means committe. Or Dem in general. Or a donor to the O campaign.. .. .. ..

122 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:16:36pm

Creationists love to drop these kinds of comments at the end of dead threads.

In the Beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. That is all I need to know. I didn't come from some stupid monkey. Give yourself some credit!

123 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:16:51pm

re: #119 Dirk Diggler

Global warming is a distraction from the gravest threat that humanity faces: Military-robot mutiny.

They've got to get the software right to begin with otherwise the robots are as likely to turn on each other as they are to turn on their human creators.

124 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:17:09pm

re: #112 katemaclaren

Let me know what you think. Palahniuk seems to be very popular with other writers. I suspect there's a lot of literary influences that would be missed by a novice like me.

125 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:17:36pm

All I know is that the so-called environmentalists are killing California and seem determined to reducing the US to turd-world status. And what are they doing about the threat of gamma-ray blasts, hm? If they really want to save the world that and every other threat to the planet should be on their platter. Unfortunately, THERE'S NO MONEY IN ADDRESSING THE REAL THREATS! If they find a way to "fight" gamma-ray bursts by controlling our economy and individual rights you can bet they'll be right on it. That's why I say no quarter for them.

126 Buster Bunny  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:17:44pm

re: #100 Buster Bunny

Heres a followup to the Swiss Banking stuff I was talking about.

They just offered to settle with the US for 780 Million .. is that extortion by the US ?

Anyway .. full linky here.

Hat tips are welcome :)

127 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:17:57pm

re: #84 Charles

Will's statement from his column:

Not only that but his approach betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the way climate scientists use data. Sea ice coverage is inherently 'spiky' - picking one particular measurement to use as the basis of a comparison from which a general conclusion about the trend could be made is just wrong.

128 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:17:57pm

re: #117 Neo Con since 9-11

Sorry but I don't trust anything coming from Discover magazine or their blogs any longer

It's a fact that George Will misrepresented the University of Illinois study.

129 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:17:57pm

re: #115 Devil's Advocate

You can't get it through your thick head that this thread, the original topic of this thread was the point that George Will is being in the least, deceptive, in the most plain old out and out dishonest.

That's it. That's all anyone has put forth to you. Yet you go on and on about Gore and this and that, all in an effort to try to make Will appear less wrong.

Hey, he's wrong, it's wrong, there is no compromise, there is no waffling.

That's the point you refuse to honestly see and respond to. Instead you go off on tangents, because you seem incapable of understanding plain, simple in your face facts.

Or your dishonest?

130 Cathypop  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:18:09pm

re: #122 Charles
A monkey has a higher IQ than those idiots

131 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:18:56pm

re: #32 Shug

I'll listen to the 650 skeptics

Me, too.

132 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:19:00pm

I'd have more belief in AGW if the main proponents weren't such money-grubbing hypocrites.

Pollution and energy generation is way more of a priority. And obtaining clean water.

133 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:19:17pm

re: #116 Perplexed

Varies as a function of temperature? You get a smoke stack, a hydrogen burning car, etc and begin dumping megatons of water vapor (that didn't naturally occur) into the air and you have a greenhouse gas that is 'forcing' climate change. Got to try harder basho.

You got me. No climatologist has ever thought about water vapor. There's a grand conspiracy to ignore it.

134 Buster Bunny  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:19:18pm

re: #122 Charles

Thats just before they head off into a Big Ban Bang with some derelict rant about how LGF has changed into a monkey and I cant deal with this and still take all my medications at the same time and goodbye.

135 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:19:35pm

re: #109 J.D.

His undergraduate degree was in Political Science.

Too bad it wasn't Economics.

I sometimes think some schools Econ class is just what he learned in Polly Sci.
Both seem geared toward social Justice through elimination of class.

136 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:19:54pm

re: #113 Racer X

No worries.

All those people who just got laid off can give a rats ass about their carbon footprint right about now.

That's what I'm talking 'bout... Even Canada is like "What the f*ck are you bothering us about climate change right now? We have real world issues going on here!"

137 brookly red  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:20:17pm

re: #123 Perplexed

They've got to get the software right to begin with otherwise the robots are as likely to turn on each other as they are to turn on their human creators.

or... the 0bots are as likely to turn on each other as they are to turn on their human creators.

juss sayin

138 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:20:49pm

re: #130 Cathypop

A monkey has a higher IQ than those idiots

Hey, Travis the chimp, alleged author of the stimulus package, would probably agree with you had he not been gunned down.

139 lostlakehiker  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:21:39pm

In the article we are talking about, Robert Varghese contributed this comment:

Most of the glibertarians, cultural conservatives, and gadget-heads who constitute the useful idiots around the core oil-and-coal-company global-warming denialist constituency would be horrified to imagine themselves playing the role of 9/11 Truthers, or RFK Jr. pumping the thimerosal/autism link, or Thabo Mbeki claiming that AIDS isn’t caused by HIV. But all four “movements” are alike in depending on compete mistrust of actual scientific experts.

While there are liars and frauds pushing global warming, that of itself doesn't make global warming false. Liars can mix true statements in with the false.

Shame on George Will for quote mining and selective interpretation of the evidence. An honest account of what the University of Illinois Arctic Climate Research Center's data had to say about 1979 would have indicated that, comparing apples to apples by selecting the exact same date from both years, sea ice had significantly declined. A scientifically honest account would have made the point that according to scientists who model climate, one would expect arctic sea ice to decline during global warming, but that antarctic sea ice was harder to predict and that it might well increase. The best case Will's defenders can make is that at some point during 1979, sea ice levels overall were roughly equal to Will's comparison data, as a result of increased antarctic ice offsetting losses to arctic ice.

Will's overall point was that evidence from UIACRC studies tended to disconfirm the AGW hypothesis. But the very sea ice evidence he's citing fits in nicely with the predictions of climate modelers, and only selective quotation and misquotation and word-fudging allow Will to argue that it points the other way.

140 DisgustingOratory  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:21:41pm

Just an uneducated guess- I imagine that in the last 30 years the methods of measuring sea ice have changed (more satellites, better sensors), and extrapolating the data leaves some wiggle room for interpretation. I don't know, though.

I do kow this- my car isn't causing it. I've been conflicted as to whether the Earth is warming or not because I hear about record cold and snow in weird places, but we haven't had much of a winter at all here in Denver this year. But seeing as how almost everything you see is made of Carbon, somehow I doubt thats the problem. Actually, I dont think warming is a problem at all, I think it would be nice.

141 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:21:47pm

re: #129 Walter L. Newton

You can't get it through your thick head that this thread, the original topic of this thread was the point that George Will is being in the least, deceptive, in the most plain old out and out dishonest.

That's it. That's all anyone has put forth to you. Yet you go on and on about Gore and this and that, all in an effort to try to make Will appear less wrong.

Hey, he's wrong, it's wrong, there is no compromise, there is no waffling.

That's the point you refuse to honestly see and respond to. Instead you go off on tangents, because you seem incapable of understanding plain, simple in your face facts.

Or your dishonest?

If you could quote me where I accepted what Will did, I'd be happy to read it.

My point has and always will be is that the data was underestimated at the time of Will's article...so those who concluded that the Ice is decreasing and claim that Will was not only a liar, but wrong in the opposite direction, are wrong as well.

142 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:22:00pm

Evolution continues. Global Warming is just part of that.

143 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:22:19pm

re: #116 Perplexed

Varies as a function of temperature? You get a smoke stack, a hydrogen burning car, etc and begin dumping megatons of water vapor (that didn't naturally occur) into the air and you have a greenhouse gas that is 'forcing' climate change. Got to try harder basho.

At a what percentage of total water vapor?
Let's say anthropogenic water vapor contributes to the total that may be a contributing factor. Is the cost of what the watermelons propose worth it? Global socialization? What is the comparative cost of adapting to the climate cycle?

It's far from certain that any man made component in the climate cycle if removed would have any effect on the overall cycle.

144 gmsc  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:23:06pm

OT - From Instapundit:

THE HILL: Gov. Rendell skeptical about stimulus potential. “Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell (D) backed the $787 billion stimulus but said Saturday that he isn’t sure whether it will actually fix the economy.” Well, if this is what the supporters say, then you can hardly blame the demonstrators for being unhappy, can you?

145 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:23:24pm

Last update - 19:28 21/02/2009

Durban II drafts: Israel is racist, occupying state

By Shlomo Shamir, Haaretz Correspondent

Tags: Israel News, Racism

Draft resolutions for the United Nations Durban II summit on racism brand Israel as an occupying state that carries out racist policies, Haaretz has learned.

The resolutions appear to confirm concerns that the second World Conference Against Racism will be used by Arab nations and others to criticize Israel. Despite those concerns, the United States said last week it would participate in planning the summit

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

And the Obama Administration is cooperating?

146 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:23:33pm

re: #140 DisgustingOratory

Actually, I dont think warming is a problem at all, I think it would be nice.

Brass tacks moment.

147 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:23:33pm

re: #125 Salem

dude you are on fire

148 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:24:10pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

Chuck Palahniuk is this generation's Kurt Vonnegut. Fight Club is his most popular book but Choke is well worth reading too. He's a bit darker than Vonnegut and I suspect he has a pretty strong Zen influence. Some of his stuff can be pretty disturbing but it isn't just about shock value. He's one of the only modern fiction writers who actually seems to have something to say. Give him a try.

Thanks. I will. I just checked Amazon and (so proud of myself) now that I have Prime, shipping is free--so I just go to town and order books on spec. My poor local B&N has suffered a setback from all the missing business I used to give them. My problem is only WTF (when, not "what") can I find the time to read them!

149 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:25:07pm

re: #32 Shug

I'll listen to the 650 skeptics

And what if you were lied to on that as well?

[Link: greenfyre.wordpress.com...]

150 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:25:27pm

re: #133 Basho

You got me. No climatologist has ever thought about water vapor. There's a grand conspiracy to ignore it.


²H2O is ripping us off

151 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:25:56pm

Space Monkey

Youtube Video
152 kingkenrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:26:16pm

Later this year an aggressive push is going to begin for climate change legislation - Harry Reid, Senator from Nevada, whose state stands to benefit greatly from solar power projects, has said so this week.

Whatever legislation comes out of this effort, it almost certainly will NOT decrease CO2 levels - only nuclear and, eventually, fusion power will do that. But the legislation certainly will increase government control over all our lives, power that will never be given back.

This past summer we were deluged with MSM predictions of no ice at the North Pole. The NW passage was going to be opened permanently, we we told. It didn't even come close to happening.

I don't want to spend by time nit-picking an MSM boob like George Will, whose position as a lead editorialist continues to mystify me. He's just as wrong as the other talking heads who are also wrong about everything.

But this will be a war of propaganda, not science, no matter how much we think it will be about science. Because both sides are interested in winning, not being truthful.

153 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:26:17pm

re: #138 Perplexed

Hey, Travis the chimp, alleged author of the stimulus package, would probably agree with you had he not been gunned down.

lol

154 Buster Bunny  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:27:24pm

re: #150 Shug

²H2O is ripping us off

Actually if there was any real concern that should be placed .. its the fact that freshwater supplies are diminishing across the planet and no political body is really doing anything about it.

When the water runs out .. people wont have the chance to worry about the climate.

155 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:27:42pm

re: #148 katemaclaren

I'm very lucky to live in Portland where we have Borders Bookstore. It's a great old fashioned (and huge) place where you can get pretty much anything off the shelf.

156 lostlakehiker  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:27:58pm

re: #122 Charles

Creationists love to drop these kinds of comments at the end of dead threads.


In the Beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. That is all I need to know. I didn't come from some stupid monkey. Give yourself some credit!


I do. He, and I, and all of us, came from the SMART monkey*! And I'm proud of our ancestors.

*To be technical, the smart distant common ancestor to today's apes [chimp, gorilla, orang, gibbon, and human] and monkeys.

157 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:28:13pm

re: #140 DisgustingOratory

I do kow this- my car isn't causing it.

You didn't see those 10,000 year old fossils they dug up of SUV's that caused the end of the last ice age?

158 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:28:34pm

re: #141 Devil's Advocate

If you could quote me where I accepted what Will did, I'd be happy to read it.

My point has and always will be is that the data was underestimated at the time of Will's article...so those who concluded that the Ice is decreasing and claim that Will was not only a liar, but wrong in the opposite direction, are wrong as well.

Your dishonesty shows every time you open your mouth (or in this case, type something). For a matter of fact, it shows even more so by the screen name you have decided to use here on LGF.

Devil's Advocate implies someone who is not an advocate for anything (since the devil is a fictional character).

What the title does imply is someone who neither knows where he/she/it SITS nor where he/she/it STANDS. Not even a good fence sitter, since you swing both ways, all the time, without any thought of honesty, principal or integrity.

If you had to take a position, your head would explode.

159 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:29:11pm

re: #155 Killgore Trout

I'm very lucky to live in Portland where we have Borders Bookstore. It's a great old fashioned (and huge) place where you can get pretty much anything off the shelf.

What about Powell's? Not as big? Not as good?

160 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:29:23pm

re: #154 Buster Bunny

Yeah, the water shortage is a huge problem to come.

161 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:29:44pm

re: #155 Killgore Trout

I'm very lucky to live in Portland where we have Borders Bookstore. It's a great old fashioned (and huge) place where you can get pretty much anything off the shelf.

Pot?

162 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:29:51pm

re: #128 Charles

It's a fact that George Will misrepresented the University of Illinois study.

Maybe he just didn't understand it!? ;-)

163 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:30:07pm

re: #154 Buster Bunny

Actually if there was any real concern that should be placed .. its the fact that freshwater supplies are diminishing across the planet and no political body is really doing anything about it.

When the water runs out .. people wont have the chance to worry about the climate.

I thought you needed to gin up on your meds? You back already?

164 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:30:35pm

re: #154 Buster Bunny

Actually if there was any real concern that should be placed .. its the fact that freshwater supplies are diminishing across the planet and no political body is really doing anything about it.

When the water runs out .. people wont have the chance to worry about the climate.

If the last wars were fought over oil, the next wars will be fought over water.

165 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:30:49pm

re: #143 jcm


It's far from certain that any man made component in the climate cycle if removed would have any effect on the overall cycle.

I disagree. Remove from the planet all the hot-air produced by liberals.

166 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:30:56pm

Bend over, here it comes again.

President Obama is putting the finishing touches on an ambitious first budget that seeks to cut the federal deficit in half over the next four years, primarily by raising taxes on business and the wealthy and by slashing spending on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, administration officials said.

167 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:31:00pm

On topics I don't know much about, my default mode is "skeptic", though I am always willing to approach factual data with an open mind, doing my level best to leave my preconceived notions behind.

That climate change happens is a fact. We have the beginning and the end of the Ice Age to prove that. What seems to be the major factors in this current debate are the prime cause(s) and the extent to which (it seems western nations alone) must take action against the perceived/promoted climate trend.

And that's where my skepticism on this topic kicks in, prime cause(s) and corrective actions. That there is a political agenda behind much of this debate makes me all the more skeptical of certain claims.

168 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:31:08pm

re: #160 Basho

Yeah, the water shortage is a huge problem to come.


We ,in the Great lakes region ,will control all,by selling our water.

169 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:31:27pm

re: #157 screaming_eagle

I do kow this- my car isn't causing it.

You didn't see those 10,000 year old fossils they dug up of SUV's that caused the end of the last ice age?

You guys are killing me!

170 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:31:27pm

Kerry: Syria willing to help on Palestinian unity

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

"Syria could be, in fact, very helpful in helping to bring about a unity government," Senator John Kerry told reporters after meeting President Bashar al-Assad. (Reuters)

Oh jack ass, how is legitimizing Hamas going to be helpful? Do you and the Obama Administration have any idea what you are doing or talking about?

171 AuntAcid  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:31:47pm

re: #1 kynna

Why misrepresent facts when the facts are on your side?

Habit?

If habit you don't succeed, lie, lie again.

172 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:32:08pm

re: #166 rightside

Bend over, here it comes again.

I wonder if O rests on the 7th day?

173 kingkenrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:32:16pm

re: #105 Charles

The UI's statement seems perfectly clear to me.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I would think the phrase "near or slightly lower" would be less than a hunk of ice the size of Texas, California and Oklahoma combined. But I don't think like a climate scientist and neither does George Will.

But the U of I statement you link takes Will's vague statement about 1979 and gets more specific - for instance, using February as a comparison date simply because that's when Will published his column. Isn't that cherry picking too?

174 Buster Bunny  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:32:33pm

re: #163 Walter L. Newton

I thought you needed to gin up on your meds? You back already?

No my exit from LGF will be with a twelve piece marching band .. two floats and a set of scantily clad dancers leading the pack.

I'll leave taking meds to the trolls in here.

175 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:32:58pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

Your dishonesty shows every time you open your mouth (or in this case, type something). For a matter of fact, it shows even more so by the screen name you have decided to use here on LGF.

Devil's Advocate implies someone who is not an advocate for anything (since the devil is a fictional character).

What the title does imply is someone who neither knows where he/she/it SITS nor where he/she/it STANDS. Not even a good fence sitter, since you swing both ways, all the time, without any thought of honesty, principal or integrity.

If you had to take a position, your head would explode.

Are you going to quote me or take back what you said?

176 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:33:12pm

re: #159 wrenchwench

Oops, sorry I meant to say Powells. Borders is a chain store in malls that is suffering the same fate as Barnes and Noble.

177 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:33:32pm

re: #166 rightside

Bend over, here it comes again.

So we are going to sent more troops to Afghanistan but slash the spending? Are we going to be sending them there with guns or ammunition? Maybe they are gonna swim there?

178 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:33:45pm

re: #167 Slumbering Behemoth

A-MEN, brother.

179 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:33:45pm

re: #161 Walter L. Newton

Sure, if you ask around enough somebody will hook you up.

180 lostlakehiker  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:33:59pm

re: #116 Perplexed

Varies as a function of temperature? You get a smoke stack, a hydrogen burning car, etc and begin dumping megatons of water vapor (that didn't naturally occur) into the air and you have a greenhouse gas that is 'forcing' climate change. Got to try harder basho.

This is scientifically soooo wrong. "Megatons" of water vapor is spitting in a hurricane compared to the naturally occurring water cycle. What's more, any water vapor added to what would be there naturally precipitates out soon enough. We do not, and we cannot, bulk up the baseline level of water vapor in the atmosphere. The hang time of extra CO2, however, is measured in centuries or longer.

Have you ever looked at a globe? The Pacific is BIG. It's one giant evaporator/humidifier, from California to China. Nothing we can do can add or subtract anything comparable to this monster's water vapor contribution.

The Pacific is big, but it isn't a smokestack. It DOES NOT produce CO2. (It absorbs some, but not enough to offset our emissions.) We can, and we do, change global CO2 levels.

181 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:34:12pm

re: #168 n in wi

We ,in the Great lakes region ,will control all,by selling our water.

Too polluted and the zebra mussels would clog the intake manifolds.

182 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:35:12pm

re: #172 katemaclaren

liberalism never rests.

183 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:35:44pm

re: #147 Shug

dude you are on fire

Aw, I don't know. Everyone has something they get riled about. I'm sickened by rank hypocrisy, particularly when it's in power. No one in government is standing up to these scoundrels. That makes it unlike almost any other issue out there. At least the IDiots were mostly indoctrinated young, the environmentalist mostly joined the racket in college when they had plenty of time to step back and take in the whole picture, but cynically joined up with a scam that gives them the most busybody power (because they feel so small inside without that). Even worse, more than a few actually believe it and won't allow themselves to even consider the possibility that they are simply useful idiots in the greatest hoax of modern times, no matter how much evidence supports that. They are literally zombies for the cause.

184 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:36:15pm

re: #181 Perplexed

Too polluted and the zebra mussels would clog the intake manifolds.

Maybe they will be condemned,and taken over by the O Admin.

185 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:36:15pm

re: #180 lostlakehiker

Nice.

For anyone genuinely interested in this, they can take a look at this discussion:
[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

186 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:37:15pm

The new US Administration has given the Palestinian Authority a "green light" to talk to Hamas about the possibility of forming a Palestinian unity government, a PA official in Ramallah said over the weekend.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Translation for those of you who don't speak appeasement:

Obama is basically recognizing Hamas and will deal with them. I hope all my Liberal Jewish friends and family are feeling the love now!

187 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:37:29pm

Let us assume man-made global warming is real. (even though I remain skeptical due to the fact that the issue is so politicized)

but for argument sake let us assume that man-made global warming is real, it is serious and we must do what we can to reverse it.

ok - now what? Kyoto? Kyoto let China and India, the world's largest emitters of Co2 on planet earth - off the hook.

What's the answer? Al Gore suggests riding bikes to work. mmmm ok.

188 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:37:49pm

re: #167 Slumbering Behemoth

And that's where my skepticism on this topic kicks in, prime cause(s) and corrective actions. That there is a political agenda behind much of this debate makes me all the more skeptical of certain claims.

And for many, admitting that the core argument of AGW might be correct would be like giving Al Gore a big sloppy open mouthed kiss, with tongue. There's a political agenda on both sides, I think I've learned to ignore it and concentrate on the facts.

189 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:37:53pm

re: #180 lostlakehiker

The Pacific is big, but it isn't a smokestack. It DOES NOT produce CO2. (It absorbs some, but not enough to offset our emissions.) We can, and we do, change global CO2 levels.


Actually water is like a sponge when it comes to CO2. When it is cold, water holds on to CO2 molecules. As the water warms up CO2 molecules are released into the atmosphere as gas.

190 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:38:35pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Oops, sorry I meant to say Powells. Borders is a chain store in malls that is suffering the same fate as Barnes and Noble.

Whew! Glad to hear it's still the one.

/moved away in 1988

191 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:38:40pm

re: #58 Devil's Advocate

I'm against it...why?

Okay, What does "quote mining" mean? Please? Help?

192 LionOfDixon  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:38:42pm

I don't know.......but with the story about that woman owning and keeping a monkey for a pet and the icecap melting and the oceans rising....aren't we in fact headed directly for Planet of the Apes?

193 Amer-I-Can  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:38:42pm

re: #101 Racer X

Funny, I don't feel warmer.

We went to the "Anti-Porkulus" rally in Kansas... trust me, it isn't getting warmer, we froze our butts off.

On a high note... according to local media about 750 people showed up. I would have estimated it at about half of that... but then again, I'm not a media "expert".

OTO, OTO, OTO

194 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:39:32pm

re: #187 FrogMarch

What's the answer?

Ummm, set the thermostat at 80 in the White House, and 68 in your house.

195 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:39:56pm

re: #180 lostlakehiker

This is scientifically soooo wrong. "Megatons" of water vapor is spitting in a hurricane compared to the naturally occurring water cycle. What's more, any water vapor added to what would be there naturally precipitates out soon enough. We do not, and we cannot, bulk up the baseline level of water vapor in the atmosphere. The hang time of extra CO2, however, is measured in centuries or longer.

Hmm, so are you saying that the atmosphere is at the saturation point with water at all times and that any additional water just gets rained/snowed out? I remember Las Vegas on dry days and when it was humid. The dry days were tolerable, but the humid days were nothing but misery. I suspect that Vegas and other cities in the southwest have had their climate skewed by people planing lawns and installing swimming pools. That climate change in an unsaturated system results in a higher humidity.

196 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:40:02pm

re: #191 katemaclaren

Okay, What does "quote mining" mean? Please? Help?

It is just quoting out of context to make an argument.

197 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:40:38pm

re: #188 Jimmah

And for many, admitting that the core argument of AGW might be correct would be like giving Al Gore a big sloppy open mouthed kiss, with tongue. There's a political agenda on both sides, I think I've learned to ignore it and concentrate on the facts.

Shit man, give a warning before posting that!

I gotta go wash my eyes out with lye.

198 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:41:22pm

re: #194 screaming_eagle

What's the answer?

Ummm, set the thermostat at 80 in the White House, and 68 in your house.

Yeah - but Obama is the King, God jr. The One. Leading by example? please, God jr. will have no part of it.

199 shiplord kirel  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:41:32pm

re: #187 FrogMarch

Let us assume man-made global warming is real. (even though I remain skeptical due to the fact that the issue is so politicized)

but for argument sake let us assume that man-made global warming is real, it is serious and we must do what we can to reverse it.

ok - now what? Kyoto? Kyoto let China and India, the world's largest emitters of Co2 on planet earth - off the hook.

What's the answer? Al Gore suggests riding bikes to work. mmmm ok.

My take as a scientist:
GW is real
Kyoto is theft and genocide.
Al Gore is the head witch-doctor of a cargo-cult.

200 Dirk Diggler  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:42:07pm

The debate over this issue is ultimately irrelevant.

1) The actions proposed by the IPCC won't do anything to stop "Global Warming" or "Climate Change". Not now or in the future.

2) The world's governments, thanks to the collapse of the global financial system, can't afford to do anything about "Climate Change" anyway. "Fixing" Global warming comes with an estimated price tag of $7 trillion dollars. That's 20% of the world's GDP.

So there.

201 dicentra  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:42:10pm

Charles:

If George Will actually misrepresented what the study said, then he needs to correct himself. Fake but accurate is wrong, no matter who does it.

However, the first question that comes to my mind is whether he really did misrepresent the study. You've quoted the University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research's response to Will's column, but without reading the actual study, I cannot say for certain that Will read it wrong.

There has been a disturbing tendency of AGW alarmists to misrepresent their own work in public—even when their data does not show warming, they write a paper that says the opposite or they release statements to the public that contradict their own results, hoping that no one looks too closely. Fortunately for them, most people don't have the background to interpret the study.

The behavior of AGW alarmists is itself alarming if you value the scientific method. Even if you don't understand the science, you can see fairly clearly that the scientific method has been discarded in favor of grant-seeking political activity, silencing of critics, and other unbecoming activities.

If I have time, I'll try to parse the study to see if Will in fact misrepresented the study or if the U of I did.

202 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:42:19pm

Mass migrations and war: Dire climate scenario

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Then shouldn't we drastically INCREASE the defense budget to be ready for the war?

203 Ojoe  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:42:19pm

re: #143 jcm

Water vapor is a really "big" greenhouse gas and it exerts a moderating effect in this way; if the temperature rises, more water evaporates off the oceans and forms clouds; the clouds reflect away solar energy (they are whiter than the sea and much of land) and so the planet cools a bit; if the temperature drops, there is less cloud cover & the sun warms us a bit more. Quite a nice effect.
Here is the earth's cloud cover now:

204 Last Mohican  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:43:10pm

re: #170 Nevergiveup

Kerry: Syria willing to help on Palestinian unity

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

"Syria could be, in fact, very helpful in helping to bring about a unity government," Senator John Kerry told reporters after meeting President Bashar al-Assad. (Reuters)

I guess the idea is that Syria is going to be helpful by supplying weapons to Hamas, thereby allowing them to continue killing Palestinians, and butcher their way into a position of power, forming a "unity government" with Fatah. At least until one side or the other decides it has had enough and wants to finish off the other one for good.

The Palestinian "unity government," at least temporarily freed from internal struggles, will then be more effectively able to bombard Israeli cities with rockets, infiltrate Israeli towns and murder children in their playgrounds, and otherwise more effectively work for the ultimate goal that both Fatah and Hamas have yearned for: extermination of every Jew in the Middle East. Who knows, perhaps, working together, this newly-empowered "unity government" could even manage to blow up a few American planes or city buses along the way!

Great work, Senator Kerry.

205 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:43:44pm
206 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:44:26pm

Will should be embarrassed for his inability to present this information accurately, IMHO. He was a loud voice in the "Sarah Palin is stupid" commentariat, correct?

live by the intellectual snobbery, die by the intellectual snobbery

207 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:45:30pm

re: #188 Jimmah

And for many, admitting that the core argument of AGW might be correct would be like giving Al Gore a big sloppy open mouthed kiss, with tongue. There's a political agenda on both sides, I think I've learned to ignore it and concentrate on the facts.

I have not delved into the facts on this topic, but would be willing to concede that modern human activity does affect local climes, should the data confirm it. That other planets in our solar system are also "warming" tells me there is a force greater than earthbound industrialism at work here.

And yes, there certainly is a political agenda on both sides, at least coming from the politicians and pundits weighing in on the issue.

208 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:45:54pm

re: #170 Nevergiveup

Kerry: Syria willing to help on Palestinian unity

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

"Syria could be, in fact, very helpful in helping to bring about a unity government," Senator John Kerry told reporters after meeting President Bashar al-Assad. (Reuters)

Oh jack ass, how is legitimizing Hamas going to be helpful? Do you and the Obama Administration have any idea what you are doing or talking about?


Short answer is no.

209 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:46:50pm

re: #185 Basho

Nice.

For anyone genuinely interested in this, they can take a look at this discussion:
[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

Very interesting link. Thanks.

210 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:47:58pm
211 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:48:28pm

re: #199 shiplord kirel

My take as a scientist:
GW is real
Kyoto is theft and genocide.
Al Gore is the head witch-doctor of a cargo-cult.

china's pollution alone wafts around the planet.

212 Scorch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:48:32pm

re: #205 Iron Fist
Well said. I would not of used those same words but well done none the less.

213 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:48:34pm

the Jindal creationism thread died, and right on cue, "TradeBait" came back for his link dump of creationist nonsense goodness

if any of you are interested...

214 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:48:50pm

re: #175 Devil's Advocate

Are you going to quote me or take back what you said?

What? No, I'm honest. I said what I said and I'm not taking anything back. It's my opinion. Oh come on now, are you going to start WHINING now about how wittle you is being hurt?

215 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:48:50pm

re: #205 Iron Fist

There have been millenia of Ice Ages (s as in plural) in the past as well, so we aren't as cold as the maximum cold that has been experienced in the history of the Earth. In short, the climate has been both hotter than it is now, and it has been colder than it is now.

THERE WERE NO FUCKING HUMANS AROUND TO EFFECT THE ENVIRONMENT EITHER WAY WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

Err... where to begin:
[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

216 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:49:16pm

re: #205 Iron Fist

A thousand updings!

217 Globular Cluster  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:49:22pm

re: #128 Charles

It's a fact that George Will misrepresented the University of Illinois study.

Did Will "misrepresent" the study, is he "lying" about the study, or did he misunderstand the study? There are honest mistakes, and then there is lying. Are the fact checkers at the Post also "lying", or did they merely do an inadequate job fact checking, which happens all the time (witness the errata section in most papers)?

I am not a fan of George Will, especially his bow tie and tweed shtick, but on the whole I think he honestly states his positions, which reflect his understanding at the time.

That being said, I looked at the comments at Discover blog. I find it emblematic and disturbing that many posters believe it conspiracy theory to question anthropogenic global warming, akin to 9/11 Trooferism. I guess we should never have questioned Malthusian doom and gloom, or Y2K disasters, or craniometry. There is science, and then there is Scientism.

218 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:49:41pm

re: #205 Iron Fist

I'm wanting the motherfuckers to show me where the climate has ever been a constant, and by ever, I mean, like, ever. From what we know from the fossil record, there were ages and ages (millions of years) where the climate was hotter than it is now. We aren't going to exceed the maximum temperature that the planet has known even if the most apocalyptic estimates are true.

There have been millenia of Ice Ages (s as in plural) in the past as well, so we aren't as cold as the maximum cold that has been experienced in the history of the Earth. In short, the climate has been both hotter than it is now, and it has been colder than it is now.

THERE WERE NO FUCKING HUMANS AROUND TO EFFECT THE ENVIRONMENT EITHER WAY WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

Yeah, I yelling, because I am fucking tired of the Luddite Left telling me that we need to get back to me living in a mud hut to save the world, while their fucking elite are jetting around the globe in their private jets as they go from macro-mansion to macro-mansion in their global, "citizen of the world" lifestyle.

Point blank, Al Gore doesn't act like he believes the horse shit that he is peddling. Neither do any of the other global warmists. They are acting like an enemy of the United States, trying to attack our economy from behind a smokescreen of "environmentalism".

Odds are, they appear to be acting that way because, well, that is what is really happening. None of the global warmists can be accused of being overly-partisan in favor of the United States or the People of the United States.

Yeppers. 100% correct.

219 katemaclaren  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:50:06pm

re: #196 Devil's Advocate

Thanks! We used to call that 'fragging the quotes' when I wrote for a newspaper--my editor said, give someone enough time (when you are interviewing him), and they will hang themselves with their own tongue--and then went on to rhapsodize about cherry picking quotes when he wanted to burn some politician he didn't like.

220 dicentra  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:51:01pm

re: #139 lostlakehiker

While there are liars and frauds pushing global warming, that of itself doesn't make global warming false.

If AGW is based on solid science, then there is no need for anyone to lie or commit fraud. Furthermore, if you're an honest scientist and your peers are lying and committing fraud, you denounce them and make a solid effort to ensure that their lies are not part of the public record.

But that's not happening, sir, but rather quite the opposite. None of the AGW proponents is calling out the frauds, none of them is denying the lies. Instead, those who challenge the orthodoxy—based on their own research—are being silenced and marginalized.

This is not science: it's politics, an unholy alliance if ever there was one.

221 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:51:21pm

re: #205 Iron Fist

Yeah, I am yelling, because I am fucking tired of the Luddite Left telling me that we need to get back to me living in a mud hut to save the world, while their fucking elite are jetting around the globe in their private jets as they go from macro-mansion to macro-mansion in their global, "citizen of the world" lifestyle.

a-men to that.

222 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:51:41pm

re: #215 Basho

I think the point was Al Gore is not ACTING like this is a serious crisis. Is he?

223 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:51:55pm

re: #196 Devil's Advocate

It is just quoting out of context to make an argument.

Which you and George Will do with aplomb.

224 garycooper  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:52:35pm

George Will and his fact-checkers were not 100% accurate, but after doing about 8 years of diligent research on AGW myself, I'm 100% positive AGW is a crock. The cherry-picking, distortion and outright-lying on the AGW-hysteria crowd's side far outstrip the same bullshit on the skeptic's side, in my experience. Although I have to admit it's fun pointing out Al Gore's gigantic personal carbon-footprint, and his profiteering on the hysteria he's helped to promore, such snark does little to advance the debate.

As the late, great Michael Crichton pointed out some years back, "The models don't work." They really don't. They haven't succeeded in predicting anything, so far. Once you understand the extremely-shaky "science" they're based on, it's very easy to understand why they don't work.

225 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:52:39pm

If y'all want to watch a great show about dinosaurs, Walking With Dinosaurs is really entertaining. One thing I learned from the show is that there used to be dinosaurs living on Antarctica.

Call me and I'll panic with you about "global warming" when those crocodiles from Australia migrate (way, way) south.

226 Dragonwolf  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:53:55pm

re: #18 Sponge

The fact that they have data they've never had before and really don't know what really has been happening since the beginning of time, don't they think they should just keep compiling data to determine whether these things the earth just 'does' because that's what it does?

I don't know.....maybe I'm just really really dumb, I guess.

Didn't you get the memo? Industrialized society (i.e. America) is the great EVIL and the cause of everything bad. Therefore, no matter what the data make imply, we are at fault for the global climate crises we're in.

Wait didn't you get the memo about everything being a crises either?

Heads will roll for this!

227 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:54:19pm

re: #222 Racer X

Whoops. I don't care much for Gore anyway ;)

228 Last Mohican  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:54:29pm

re: #205 Iron Fist


THERE WERE NO FUCKING HUMANS AROUND TO EFFECT THE ENVIRONMENT EITHER WAY WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

Dinosaurmobiles. Big freakin' twelve-cylinder gas-guzzling dinosaurmobiles.

Plus, the dinosaurs, lacking thumbs, were unable to put on sweaters to keep warm. So they walked around the cave stark naked, and left their thermostats set at, like, eighty degrees.

229 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:55:04pm

re: #228 Last Mohican

ROFLMAO!

230 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:55:55pm
231 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:56:21pm

U.S. officials are furious with the United Nations for its role in Hamas' attempt to enlist U.S. Sen John Kerry to transfer a letter from the Palestinian militant group to President Obama during Kerry's trip to the Middle East, an official source told FOX News.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

But if Obama is legitimizing a "Unity" government which will include Hamas? What's the freak en problem? Hum? I guess the hypocritical liars are getting caught in their web of deceit?

232 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:56:37pm

re: #214 Walter L. Newton

What? No, I'm honest. I said what I said and I'm not taking anything back. It's my opinion. Oh come on now, are you going to start WHINING now about how wittle you is being hurt?

No, I'm sorry.

You're opinion isn't worth a damn about me unless you quote what I said to justify your opinion.

You said: "Your dishonesty shows every time you open your mouth (or in this case, type something)."

Yet, you don't cite where I was dishonest. You just go off on a tirade about my screename.

E.g. "Devil's Advocate implies someone who is not an advocate for anything (since the devil is a fictional character).

What the title does imply is someone who neither knows where he/she/it SITS nor where he/she/it STANDS. Not even a good fence sitter, since you swing both ways, all the time, without any thought of honesty, principal or integrity.

If you had to take a position, your head would explode."

I justified my arguments, and yet I'm still waiting for you to quote me to justify your opinions.

233 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:56:48pm

re: #230 Iron Fist

The way I see it, they can't use their models to predict what the weather will be like next Wednesday with any degree of accuracy. Why should we believe them when they claim that their models produce accurate predictions for next Wednesday plus 100 years?

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

234 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:56:59pm

re: #227 Basho

Whoops. I don't care much for Gore anyway ;)

I am totally open to new evidence and will look at all sides in the AGW debate. So far I am leaning towards AGW being a crock of political shit.

235 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:57:02pm

re: #230 Iron Fist

The way I see it, they can't use their models to predict what the weather will be like next Wednesday with any degree of accuracy. Why should we believe them when they claim that their models produce accurate predictions for next Wednesday plus 100 years?

Because their jobs depend on it, silly you.

236 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:57:06pm

re: #223 Walter L. Newton

Which you and George Will do with aplomb.

Again, cite one example where I quoted someone out of context.

237 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:57:59pm

what caused the ice ages? and what caused them to dissipate?

-------------
Find out the answer to that question and we have the culprit for whatever is making it warmer ( or cooler ) now.

238 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:59:08pm

global warming has become a religion for some people. and algore the big fat preacher man pushing salvation for a price. it seems the world is upside down today. so many people w/ a cause they are pushing for money. and lying, lying, lying to make it happen. this is so discouraging if you really do seek the truth.
and the hysteria on the side of some believers is so irrational. it boils down to nothing but kooks w/ nothing better to do than carry around photos of polar bears are an ice flows out to sea. and the tears don't stop when you explain that polars go out to sea. that's what they do. i am getting to the point that i disbelieve anything the left says. i just can't give the gibberish an inch because i know where it will go. all the melodramatic experts w/ the inevitability of doom.
like O pushing his pork bill.

i look to conservatives to be level headed and value truth.
that is the standard we need. maybe will was off on this because he is not first and foremost a science writer. there are other sources he could have used to support his proposition. i like him and admire him overall.
and am interested to see if he addresses this in the future.

239 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:59:48pm

re: #205 Iron Fist

Well said.

240 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:00:12pm

re: #228 Last Mohican

Dinosaurmobiles. Big freakin' twelve-cylinder gas-guzzling dinosaurmobiles.

Plus, the dinosaurs, lacking thumbs, were unable to put on sweaters to keep warm. So they walked around the cave stark naked, and left their thermostats set at, like, eighty degrees.


So the cars on the Flintstones aint real?

241 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:00:46pm

re: #240 n in wi

They are certainly environmentally friendly!

242 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:00:59pm

re: #228 Last Mohican

Dinosaurmobiles. Big freakin' twelve-cylinder gas-guzzling dinosaurmobiles.

Plus, the dinosaurs, lacking thumbs, were unable to put on sweaters to keep warm. So they walked around the cave stark naked, and left their thermostats set at, like, eighty degrees.


LMAO

243 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:01:04pm

re: #237 Shug

what caused the ice ages? and what caused them to dissipate?

-------------
Find out the answer to that question and we have the culprit for whatever is making it warmer ( or cooler ) now.

I suspect that the solar output isn't constant.

244 Last Mohican  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:01:07pm

re: #231 Nevergiveup

Yeah, seriously. If the U.S. government now wishes to see Hamas as a legitimate governing power, then why are we upset about their passing notes to us?

245 eaglewingz08  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:01:16pm

If the sloppy arctic sensor is to blame for a drastic (California sized) undercount at least, of artic ice, will the University of Illinois (Hmm they wouldn't be supporters of Obama's foolish energy policies would they? they wouldn't be rooting for/supporting the hometown President and skew their results?) retract its slashing of George Will? I doubt it. Even when fools like Hanson at NASA get caught manufacturing data they have no shame and don't resign and libs don't call on them to resign for 'bad science' or 'politicized science' because the hoax supports libs policy agendas.

246 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:01:31pm

I am all for cleaner air, water, land. Conserve when possible. Use technology to power society cleaner when possible. Make the planet a nicer place but frankly I'm a Hell of a lot more concerned with Iranian nukes, and their ability to put a satellite into orbit than I am with the predicted thickness of polar ice caps in 100 years

247 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:02:09pm

re: #237 Shug

what caused the ice ages? and what caused them to dissipate?

-------------
Find out the answer to that question and we have the culprit for whatever is making it warmer ( or cooler ) now.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

248 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:02:37pm

re: #23 Jetpilot1101

I'm no scientist so I am no expert on AGW. What I do know is that the Global Warming or "Climate Change" debate has been hijacked by alarmists like Al Gore who are only interested in padding their pockets and getting rich. I don't believe for a second that Al Gore's motivations are purely altruistic. Until folks like him start practicing what they preach, I'll be a skeptic on the whole issue.

I do like this website for some good scientific AGW research.

Maybe a few people are getting rich. Maybe a few people are promoting an
idea for nefarious reasons. Maybe it's a coming episode in 24.

But if you were a scientist, would you know which scientists to trust, including yourself?

(just trying to move things along here)

249 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:02:46pm

BTW - this years Oscar ceremony should be replaced with a hour long program dedicated to Sean Penn, Michael Moore and Al Gore.

Susan Saranwrap can preside over the honors. Hand the holy hollywood trinity a fist full of golden statues and be done with it.

250 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:02:57pm

re: #244 Last Mohican

Yeah, seriously. If the U.S. government now wishes to see Hamas as a legitimate governing power, then why are we upset about their passing notes to us?

Inquiring minds want to know? But I doubt any reporter would ever ask that?

251 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:03:22pm

re: #232 Devil's Advocate

Look jerk. You have had a whole thread to "get the point." Your dishonesty has been explained to you by me and a number of other Lizards on this thread.

Not once, in any of your replies, do you stop and simply address the simple question that you have been asked over and over and over, by me and other today.

Now, I am going to ask you one more time, basically a yes or no answer will work from you...

"Charles was right. Period. Will was wrong (or deceptive). Period. End of story, no buts."

My question is in regards to THIS story and THIS thread, based on all the data supplied in the story and the thread. I am not asking for your opinion on other articles, other science, or some other subject.

And I am not asking if the Ill. study was wrong. I am only asking if you think (yes/no) that Will was in the least being deceptive in framing his article?

Let's see how honest you can be with your answer.

252 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:03:56pm

re: #243 Perplexed

I suspect that the solar output isn't constant.

I have a degree in Biology but I am by no means a climate scientist. Using logic and common sense, I can't help but notice it's warmer in Australia than in Michigan this time of year.

It's also usually warmer in Death Valley than in Big Bear and wherever you are chances are it's warmer at 2 PM than 2 AM

all of these things are because of the Sun.

253 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:04:17pm

re: #205 Iron Fist

Hoo boy. Had a bad night last night?

254 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:04:22pm

re: #230 Iron Fist

The way I see it, they can't use their models to predict what the weather will be like next Wednesday with any degree of accuracy. Why should we believe them when they claim that their models produce accurate predictions for next Wednesday plus 100 years?

The climate will always change..100 years from now..a 1000, 10,000 or a million years..It will change...
Now it would appear politically the issue is whether Man causes climate change...Thus Al Gore gets his foot in the scientific discussion.
unseemly at worst..disingenuous at best..
You know what the upside to global warming is for Al?
When in 20 years it gets really cold again and the cycle changes..He gets to claim he solved the problem of global warming..and now it's time to get cracking on the global freezing problem.
You can't lose with cycles.

255 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:04:27pm

re: #249 FrogMarch

BTW - this years Oscar ceremony should be replaced with a hour long program dedicated to Sean Penn, Michael Moore and Al Gore.

Susan Saranwrap can preside over the honors. Hand the holy hollywood trinity a fist full of golden statues and be done with it.

Or a porn movie, since you know they are all gonna be masturbating over Obama being President.

256 Confuzed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:05:10pm

The following is NOT my information/thoughts, just reposting what I found somewhere earlier. No citation/attribution because I don't have one, sorry.

Any thoughts on the following, i.e., true/false, etc., especially with regards to CO2 as percent of atmosphere.

1. CO2 is a really, really small part of the atmosphere. Currently CO2 makes up about 0.0378% of the atmosphere, up from an estimated 0.0280% before the industrial revolution. AGW advocates are arguing that a CO2 concentration increase of 0.009% has heated the world over a half a degree C.

2. The maximum warming should, by greenhouse gas theories, occur in the troposphere (the first 10km or so of atmosphere). Global warming theory strongly predicts that the warming in the troposphere should be higher than warming at the ground. The opposite is actually occurring.


3. The radiated energy returning to space consists of a wide spectrum of wavelengths. Only a few of these wavelengths are absorbed by CO2. Once these few wavelengths are fully absorbed, additional CO2 in the atmosphere has no effect whatsoever. Also, these absorbed frequencies overlap with the absorption of other gasses, like water, which further lessens the incremental effect of extra CO2.


4. When you look at the relationship between CO2 and temperature, you find something funny. At any time in the last 650,000 years, based on ice core datatemperatures actually increased on average 800 years before CO2 started to increase. When event B occurs after event A, it is really hard to argue that B caused A.

(CO2 is .003% or so of the atmosphere, whereas water vapor varies from 1% to 4% of the atmosphere.)

257 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:05:33pm

re: #252 Shug

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]
[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

258 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:05:42pm

re: #233 Basho

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

I wrote something similar to a lizard making the same argument and got down dinged for it.
Actually, I had said we could predict the average temperature 6 months away more accurately than the temperature 6 days away.

259 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:06:34pm

re: #249 FrogMarch

The Oscars are still on TV?

260 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:07:40pm

re: #48 Devil's Advocate

I concede the following points:

1) The University of Illinois' Arctic Climate Research Center did not say what he claimed they said.

Again, you didn't read what I said; if you did, you'd see I conceded up front that "IACRC did not say what he claimed they said."

The fact of the matter is that you still refuse to quote me to justify your opinion because your argument falls apart if you did.

261 pink freud  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:07:44pm

re: #258 Kosh's Shadow

I wrote something similar to a lizard making the same argument and got down dinged for it.
Actually, I had said we could predict the average temperature 6 months away more accurately than the temperature 6 days away.

Regression toward the mean, I think it's called.

262 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:07:58pm

re: #230 Iron Fist

The way I see it, they can't use their models to predict what the weather will be like next Wednesday with any degree of accuracy. Why should we believe them when they claim that their models produce accurate predictions for next Wednesday plus 100 years?

The criteria and data used for the two categories of prediction, if one calls it that, are completely unrelated nor it is TV meteorologists who are claiming global warming.

263 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:08:11pm

re: #252 Shug

Yes, and when I was in a near total solar eclipse one of the things I noticed was that the temperature noticeably dropped.

264 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:08:23pm

re: #256 Confuzed

Any thoughts on the following, i.e., true/false, etc., especially with regards to CO2 as percent of atmosphere.


4 seems to be a popular point here so I'll link specifically to this:
[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

Further info can be found here:
[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

265 Last Mohican  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:08:24pm

re: #240 n in wi

So the cars on the Flintstones aint real?

Contrary to what creationists will have you believe, cavemen did not exist until about 65 million years after dinosaurs were extinct.

Cavemen, like the Flinstones, were appalled by the wasteful, environmentally insensitive ways of the ancient dinosaurs, with their massive dinosaurmobiles. That's why the cavemen used green technology, like those foot-powered cars. Cavemen were sensitive, caring souls. Dinosaurs sucked.

266 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:08:35pm

re: #259 ConservatismNow!

The Oscars are still on TV?

Tomorrow night...:( I'm going to turn off the telly, and clip the cat's toe nails.

267 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:08:37pm
268 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:08:44pm

re: #207 Slumbering Behemoth

You're in for an unpleasant treat when you fact check the claims about other planets heating up. You'll find that here again, unfortunately, the facts have been misrepresented by 'sceptics'.

Take the example of Triton, which was cited as having warmed by 3 degrees farenheit over a period of several years. Triton is one of the very furthest objects in our solar system, further away than Pluto for much of the time. What kind of heating of the sun would be required to heat such a distant object up by that much? And how much would that amount of heat warm the earth up by, remembering that the earth is very much closer to the sun than triton? Basically, we'd have fried. I don't think one has to be an expert to grasp that solar output cannot have been responsible for the increase in temp on triton.

This article about the warming on Triton is often posted by sceptics who fail to point out that it does not attribute the increase to changes in solar output, but gives entirely different reasons that are to do with the Triton's environment. Perhaps they assume that fellow sceptics will only read as far as the first couple of lines?

[Link: web.mit.edu...]

269 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:08:45pm

i don't even think algore believes in global warming, man made or otherwise, or he would clean up his act.
he is a disgrace the way he pollutes.
he is in this for the money.
and the gov't is not far behind w/ taxes and fees and fines and laws to restrict us.

they want to blame people because then they can modify our behavior to benefit themselves.

270 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:08:49pm

re: #259 ConservatismNow!

The Oscars are still on TV?

Sure. He and his roommate Felix. It is a movie and a TV series.

271 Lincolntf  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:09:17pm

re: #249 FrogMarch

What's the over/under on "Obama" mentions during the Awards ceremony?

There's nothing more annoying than a bunch of coke-addled starlets and mumbly leading-men lecturing me about politics and world events.

272 Last Mohican  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:09:58pm

re: #267 Iron Fist

Your point is correct, but I, for one, am pretty upset that the Obama Administration would consider doing anything with Hamas other than wiping them off the face of the Earth. I don't believe there is a more unrepentant, blatant example of the modern terror-state than Hamas and Gaza. They are worse (or at least more open) than Iran about their terrorist activities. they do nothing to hide what they are, but there are those who don't find it in their interest to see what Hamas so plainly is about.

I agree.

273 KingKenrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:10:08pm

re: #255 Nevergiveup

Or a porn movie, since you know they are all gonna be masturbating over Obama being President.

I'm not going to watch simple because I don't want to watch this parade of retards with their smug, sanctimonious mugging and smiling and mutual masturbation over the Obama Era.

274 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:10:51pm

re: #258 Kosh's Shadow

I wrote something similar to a lizard making the same argument and got down dinged for it.
Actually, I had said we could predict the average temperature 6 months away more accurately than the temperature 6 days away.

Yeah, same here. This link goes deeper into climate models. It's written for laymen but here is an interesting quote:
[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]
(the following is from the link, not written by me)

Putting global surface temperatures aside, there are some other significant model predictions made and confirmed:

* models predict that surface warming should be accompanied by cooling of the stratosphere, and this has indeed been observed;
* models have long predicted warming of the lower, mid, and upper troposphere, even while satellite readings seemed to disagree -- but it turns out the satellite analysis was full of errors and on correction, this warming has been observed;
* models predict warming of ocean surface waters, as is now observed;
* models predict an energy imbalance between incoming sunlight and outgoing infrared radiation, which has been detected;
* models predict sharp and short-lived cooling of a few tenths of a degree in the event of large volcanic eruptions, and Mount Pinatubo confirmed this;
* models predict an amplification of warming trends in the Arctic region, and this is indeed happening;
* and finally, to get back to where we started, models predict continuing and accelerating warming of the surface, and so far they are correct.

275 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:11:02pm

re: #260 Devil's Advocate

Again, you didn't read what I said; if you did, you'd see I conceded up front that "IACRC did not say what he claimed they said."

The fact of the matter is that you still refuse to quote me to justify your opinion because your argument falls apart if you did.

Now you are quoting yourself and talking to yourself. This is fun.

276 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:11:11pm

re: #266 Dustyvet

Wow. That sounds infinitely more interesting than watching Susan Sarandon and Sean Penn, unless I decide to watch Fast Times at Ridgemont High.

277 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:11:18pm

re: #268 Jimmah

I say 'unpleasant' btw, because it wasn't pleasant for me either to find out that so much of AGW scepticism was based on the same kinds of deception that people like the disco institute employ. I wanted the sceptics to be right, but I don't think they are anymore.

278 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:11:26pm

re: #271 Lincolntf

What's the over/under on "Obama" mentions during the Awards ceremony?

13,578

279 Scorch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:11:40pm

re: #241 ConservatismNow!
Do not know about that. That skin burning off the bottom of their feet while braking has to cause some kind of dangerous pollutant.

280 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:11:53pm

re: #237 Shug

what caused the ice ages? and what caused them to dissipate?

-------------
Find out the answer to that question and we have the culprit for whatever is making it warmer ( or cooler ) now.

No. There can be many factors in different combinations, which is precisely why the issue is controversial. Proponents talk CO2 and Methane, for example. Opponents talk Water Vapor and Solar Radiation, for example.

281 Confuzed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:12:11pm

re: #264 Basho

Thank you Basho.

282 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:12:24pm

here's a pretty cool article from the Jerusalem Post that football fans will appreciate:

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

I know this guy (our kids go to camp together) and he is as good a guy as it appears from the article.

283 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:12:44pm

re: #271 Lincolntf

What's the over/under on "Obama" mentions during the Awards ceremony? There's nothing more annoying than a bunch of coke-addled starlets and mumbly leading-men lecturing me about politics and world events.

It doesn't matter. You will utter his name 4 times an hour, every day, for all your waking hours.

284 Teh Flowah  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:12:45pm

re: #23 Jetpilot1101

I'm no scientist so I am no expert on AGW. What I do know is that the Global Warming or "Climate Change" debate has been hijacked by alarmists like Al Gore who are only interested in padding their pockets and getting rich. I don't believe for a second that Al Gore's motivations are purely altruistic. Until folks like him start practicing what they preach, I'll be a skeptic on the whole issue.

I do like this website for some good scientific AGW research.

This is filled with logical inconsistencies. If you're not knowledgeable on AGW, how are you sure that Al Gore is an alarmist and not simply on target?

Also, what do his motives matter? Look at the science behind the man, not the man fronting it.

Hypocrisy as a indicator of "correctness" is just stupid. I hope you never become/aren't a parent. I'm sure you've done stupid stupid things in your younger days that you are going to tell your kids not to do. When your kid calls you a hypocrite for not listening to your parents when they did the same, please, kindly, kick yourself in the mouth. Someone who is or is not a hypocrite says nothing about the ideas themselves, Al Gore the hypocrite is not global warming, as much as you want to make them the same thing.

This tactic of tying in easily attacked figures like Al Gore to ideas you don't like is stupid and hypocritical of you. People try to tie the anti-jihadist movements to racist, fascist right wing groups. I'm sure you can realize how dumb and unfair that is, even if they two are connected in some ways.

So, if you're going to argue against AGW, please try to do so in a way that makes sense and uses science, not your intuition about a politician you don't like. Don't point to gaps or human error in data that do not even begin to contradict the other evidence. It's getting old fighting against creationists and I don't want to have to switch it to this subject too.

/me prepares for dings.

285 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:13:01pm

re: #236 re: #158 Walter L. Newton

Your dishonesty shows every time you open your mouth (or in this case, type something). For a matter of fact, it shows even more so by the screen name you have decided to use here on LGF.

Devil's Advocate implies someone who is not an advocate for anything (since the devil is a fictional character).

What the title does imply is someone who neither knows where he/she/it SITS nor where he/she/it STANDS. Not even a good fence sitter, since you swing both ways, all the time, without any thought of honesty, principal or integrity.

If you had to take a position, your head would explode.

Again, I'm still waiting for you to take back what you said regarding me quoting anyone out of context or being dishonest.

286 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:13:09pm

re: #271 Lincolntf

Are you kidding?! They'll give Dear Leader a standing ovation!

287 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:13:17pm

Favorite Oscar® moment - The Streaker


Youtube Video
288 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:13:21pm

re: #268 Jimmah

Excellent. I am also amused when they point to Jupiter warming and blame the sun, unaware we'd be fried in the process if that were accurate.
(And what about the planets/moons not warming?)

289 vxbush  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:13:28pm

re: #266 Dustyvet

Tomorrow night...:( I'm going to turn off the telly, and clip the cat's toe nails.

So you have your dragon-hide gloves ready?

290 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:13:32pm

re: #271 Lincolntf

What's the over/under on "Obama" mentions during the Awards ceremony?

There's nothing more annoying than a bunch of coke-addled starlets and mumbly leading-men lecturing me about politics and world events.

isn't it insulting. this is the problem. idiots like this, uninformed fools who are spreading propaganda. and they have such a platform to reach so many people. who are uneducated. and gullible.

291 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:13:47pm

re: #282 _RememberTonyC

here's a pretty cool article from the Jerusalem Post that football fans will appreciate:

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

I know this guy (our kids go to camp together) and he is as good a guy as it appears from the article.

You've met Tipp? Very cool..Thanks for the link

292 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:14:15pm

re: #48 Devil's Advocate

If I say the moon is made of green cheese and you tell others I said it was not, you are still guilty of not telling the truth no matter if I am accurate or not.

The issue is what George Will wrote in his column that others have said and reported.

293 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:14:20pm

re: #276 ConservatismNow!

Wow. That sounds infinitely more interesting than watching Susan Sarandon and Sean Penn, unless I decide to watch Fast Times at Ridgemont High.

Hey Howard The Duck would be fun...:)

294 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:14:31pm
295 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:14:58pm

re: #275 Walter L. Newton

Now you are quoting yourself and talking to yourself. This is fun.

Of course I am quoting myself to demonstrate that you have no justification for your opinion.

You say I take positions I didn't...I cite to refute what you said.

You say I'm dishonest, without a single quote.

You say I quote mine, without a single example.

Again...I'll wait for you to quote what I said to justify your opinions, or I expect for you to take back what you said.

296 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:15:18pm

Update to the video I posted earlier: Glenn Beck scares Fox host into hiding under table (yes. she literally does hide under the table)......

Hot Air has the show that Glenn Beck was promoting....
Glenn Beck: The end of America is nigh, maybe

I’m giving you all three segments from yesterday’s show; if you’re only up for one, stick with number three. Nothing they’re saying is terribly implausible, frankly — except maybe the idea that in five years NYC will look like Mexico City or Baghdad — but because the tone of Beck’s show is always somewhat febrile, it’s hard to know how seriously to take any of it.

297 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:15:20pm

re: #237 Shug

dinoflatulence.

298 jorline  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:15:50pm

We just had a global warming front go through...the temperature has dropped from 75 to 66 within the last 30 minutes.

299 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:15:58pm

re: #283 Walter L. Newton

It doesn't matter. You will utter his name 4 times an hour, every day, for all your waking hours.

yea. my prayer rug is getting worn out.. I need to go to Wal-Mart and get another one..
/I used to face towards Chicago..But now it's S. East towards DC.

300 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:16:08pm

re: #289 vxbush

So you have your dragon-hide gloves ready?

Yuppers, and coveralls...

301 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:16:09pm

re: #282 _RememberTonyC

here's a pretty cool article from the Jerusalem Post that football fans will appreciate:

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

I know this guy (our kids go to camp together) and he is as good a guy as it appears from the article.

Thanks. I never knew. Interesting

302 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:16:19pm

re: #293 Dustyvet

Didn't that movie have Jeffrey Jones in it? He's an 80s movie icon. Howard the Duck was one of my favorite movies as a kid...and I don't know why.

303 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:16:26pm

re: #255 Nevergiveup

Or a porn movie, since you know they are all gonna be masturbating over Obama being President.

good idea.
Oscars part 1: Fist of golden statues given to the holy hollywood trinity: Michael Moore, Sean Penn and AlGore.

part 2: "Come witness and worship the glorious hope and change of Barack Obama, community organizer - just like Jesus." Duet by Susan Saranwrap and Scarlet Johhhannnsenn

part 3: Encore by the holy hollywood trinity, legend of tears

304 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:16:30pm

re: #277 Jimmah

I say 'unpleasant' btw, because it wasn't pleasant for me either to find out that so much of AGW scepticism was based on the same kinds of deception that people like the disco institute employ. I wanted the sceptics to be right, but I don't think they are anymore.

I was in the same boat...
I was a skeptic. Then, some science writers I respected started writing articles showing they were convinced AGW was real. I looked deeper into the skeptic world and saw it was in fact a massive disinformation campaign.

305 KingKenrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:16:31pm

re: #256 Confuzed

The following is NOT my information/thoughts, just reposting what I found somewhere earlier. No citation/attribution because I don't have one, sorry.

Any thoughts on the following, i.e., true/false, etc., especially with regards to CO2 as percent of atmosphere.

1. CO2 is a really, really small part of the atmosphere. Currently CO2 makes up about 0.0378% of the atmosphere, up from an estimated 0.0280% before the industrial revolution. AGW advocates are arguing that a CO2 concentration increase of 0.009% has heated the world over a half a degree C.

2. The maximum warming should, by greenhouse gas theories, occur in the troposphere (the first 10km or so of atmosphere). Global warming theory strongly predicts that the warming in the troposphere should be higher than warming at the ground. The opposite is actually occurring.


3. The radiated energy returning to space consists of a wide spectrum of wavelengths. Only a few of these wavelengths are absorbed by CO2. Once these few wavelengths are fully absorbed, additional CO2 in the atmosphere has no effect whatsoever. Also, these absorbed frequencies overlap with the absorption of other gasses, like water, which further lessens the incremental effect of extra CO2.


4. When you look at the relationship between CO2 and temperature, you find something funny. At any time in the last 650,000 years, based on ice core datatemperatures actually increased on average 800 years before CO2 started to increase. When event B occurs after event A, it is really hard to argue that B caused A.

(CO2 is .003% or so of the atmosphere, whereas water vapor varies from 1% to 4% of the atmosphere.)

I think the key part of this is we don't know if less and less CO2 absorbing infrared radiation is actually being reflected back into space. This would be the smoking gun of AGW if it were found, but it either isn't happening or all our methods of detecting it aren't working or haven't worked.

306 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:16:50pm

OT: for real world information on the economic crisis....
Bob Brinker is doing a great show today.

307 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:17:04pm

DA and WLN, how about taking it to the lounge for a cage match

308 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:17:28pm

Hello Lizards, I'm back and it's still snowin' and blowin' in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chiagoland.

What are we talking about?

309 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:18:07pm

re: #293 Dustyvet

Hey Howard The Duck would be fun...:)

I prefer shoving frozen peas up my nose to perform a pre-frontal lobotomy on myself to watching that movie, thank you very much.

310 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:18:11pm

re: #268 Jimmah

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

Triton is a simpler subject than Earth for studying the causes and effects of global warming. "It's generally true around the solar system that when we try to understand a problem as complex as global warming -- one in which we can't control the variables -- the more extreme cases we have to study, the more we can become sure of certain factors," Elliot said. "With Triton, we can clearly see the changes because of its simple, thin atmosphere."

The moon is approaching an extreme southern summer, a season that occurs every few hundred years. During this special time, the moon's southern hemisphere receives more direct sunlight. The equivalent on Earth would be having the sun directly overhead at noon north of Lake Superior during a northern summer.

Elliot and his colleagues believe that Triton's temperature has increased because of indications that the pressure of the atmosphere has increased. Because of the unusually strong correlation between Triton's surface ice temperature and its atmospheric pressure, Elliot said scientists can infer a temperature increase of 3 degrees Fahrenheit over nine years based on its recent increase in surface vapor pressure. Any ice on Triton that warms up a little results in a big increase in atmospheric pressure as the vaporized gas joins the atmosphere.

311 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:18:34pm

re: #285 Devil's Advocate

Again, I'm still waiting for you to take back what you said regarding me quoting anyone out of context or being dishonest.

Me thinks you will be waiting a fucking long time. We have this concept in this country, it's called freedom of speech, which we do here on LGF.

I've given you my opinion, a number of times, and you have responded. I'm not going to retract what I have said, so, leave it alone, let it lie, it's my opinion. My opinion is you have been dishonest here today.

Tomorrow or next week or sometime in the future, I may agree whole heartily with something you say, or you may do the same with a statement or opinion of mine.

That's the way adults communicate. We don't always agree, we don't even have to be right (I could be totally wrong), but, one thing we don't do as adults (or at least I don't do) is whine like a little child.

312 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:18:48pm

re: #298 jorline

We just had a global warming front go through...the temperature has dropped from 75 to 66 within the last 30 minutes.

I'll trade our 23 for your 66

313 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:19:25pm

re: #293 Dustyvet

Hey Howard The Duck would be fun...:)

Naked?

314 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:19:29pm

re: #309 FurryOldGuyJeans

I prefer shoving frozen peas up my nose to perform a pre-frontal lobotomy on myself to watching that movie, thank you very much.

Beats the Oscars...:P) Frozen Peas?...:)

315 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:19:43pm

re: #312 screaming_eagle

I'll trade our 23 for your 66

Let's share his 66.

I'd settle for 33

316 Scorch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:19:50pm

re: #308 ggt

Hello Lizards, I'm back and it's still snowin' and blowin' in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chiagoland.

What are we talking about?


Ahh, more global warming.

317 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:19:52pm

re: #308 ggt

Hello Lizards, I'm back and it's still snowin' and blowin' in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chiagoland.

What are we talking about?

Good afternoon..We got 3" of global warming here in Indiana..
/I'm a guy so we always say at least 6" no matter what..
Hope today finds you well

318 Right Brain  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:19:57pm

I read the Daily Tech report a month or so ago and concluded exactly what George Will did, why? Because its entitled "Sea Ice Ends Year at Same Level as 1979." That is not George Will writing, its a report from the Univ. of Illinois.

[Link: www.stumbleupon.com...]

Then there was the coup de grace wherein U of ILL then tries to backtrack by describing Will adding both the South Pole and North Pole together, yeah, OK, like U of Ill did.

Then three days later we have the coup coup de grace wherein Artic Sea Ice News notes a bum sensor on the weather satellite caused "a slowly growing underestimation of Arctic sea ice extent."

[Link: nsidc.org...]


It is likely that not only is George Will correct, but given the new data his claim is actually understated by around 193,000 sq. miles of ice not previously counted.

319 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:20:07pm

re: #313 Walter L. Newton

Naked?

PIN FEATHERS...:)

320 Last Mohican  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:20:11pm

re: #297 rightside

dinoflatulence.

Those boorish, rude dinosaurs. Not surprising they'd have dinoflatulence, either, sitting around on their enormous dino-couches all day, eating frozen burrito after frozen burrito, dumping the boxes and plastic wrapping and everything into the environment for future generations to deal with.

God, I hate those dinosaurs.

321 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:20:25pm

This is funny:


Irish police have solved the mystery of a Polish recidivist who clocked up 50 traffic offenses on different addresses and who was never caught . . . .

An internal police memo cited by Irish papers Thursday said officers taking details of Polish traffic offenders had been mistakenly using "Prawo Jazdy," printed in the top right corner of the driving license, as the holder's name.
"Prawo Jazdy is actually the Polish for driving license and not the first and surname on the license," the police memo dated June 2007 said. "It is quite embarrassing to see the system has created Prawo Jazdy as a person with over 50 identities."
A police spokesman declined to comment on the reports.
About 200,000 Polish people flocked to Ireland during the boom years of its "Celtic Tiger" economy but a poll in November indicated a third of them planned to leave due to recession.

322 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:20:39pm

re: #296 Killgore Trout

Update to the video I posted earlier: Glenn Beck scares Fox host into hiding under table (yes. she literally does hide under the table)......

Hot Air has the show that Glenn Beck was promoting....
Glenn Beck: The end of America is nigh, maybe

Beck is a creepy creep. You ever see the segment where he does a split-screen with a close-up on his eyes. In effect, a split-screen with himself. But I don't know how anyone could see that and not think the guy must be deranged. "LOOK! INTO MY EYES!"

323 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:20:46pm

re: #317 HoosierHoops

Good afternoon..We got 3" of global warming here in Indiana..
/I'm a guy so we always say at least 6" no matter what..
Hope today finds you well

Thanks! HH, same to you.

(well feelings, not globull warming)

324 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:20:57pm

re: #314 Dustyvet

Beats the Oscars...:P) Frozen Peas?...:)

How easy do you think performing a pre-frontal lobotomy would be if you use frozen peas instead of all the surgical instruments doctors routinely use?

325 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:21:02pm

re: #319 Dustyvet

PIN FEATHERS...:)

MAISEY.

326 freedombilly  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:21:15pm

I do not think that man made global warming passes the sniff test at this point in time. And when morons like Al Gore claim that there is no longer any debate within the scientific community on the subject it sounds more like dogma than science.

That being said why on earth would George Will deliberately misquote scientists in order to make his point? I consider myself a George Will fan (usually) but this does nothing but embolden the other side and discredits his own argument.

As was stated way upthread this is a tactic that I would expect from the Disco Institute, not George Will.

327 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:21:16pm

re: #318 Right Brain


dude, your link is to a food website

328 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:21:37pm

re: #325 Walter L. Newton

MAISEY.

WHAT!

329 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:21:37pm

re: #322 Salem

He's really going off the deep end.

330 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:21:44pm

re: #317 HoosierHoops

Heh. dorian wouldn't have used the /...

LOL

331 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:21:49pm

re: #226 Dragonwolf

Didn't you get the memo? Industrialized society (i.e. America) is the great EVIL and the cause of everything bad. Therefore, no matter what the data make imply, we are at fault for the global climate crises we're in.

Wait didn't you get the memo about everything being a crises either?

Heads will roll for this!

Welcome back.

However, while there is no shortage of people directly or indirectly blaming the USA for everything, if true this is not something that the US could possibly fix on it's own.

In truth I suspect the present economic slowdown will reduce greenhouse gases more than years of slowly "cleaning up" emissions.

It will be interesting to see if anyone claims to be able to measure that sometime.

332 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:21:54pm

re: #277 Jimmah

It wasn't easy for me either when I found out. A massive kick in the teeth. I learned a lot about sorting out the truth in the process though, so in that sense I'm kind of grateful at all the lawyers and economists writing on climate science ;D

333 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:22:08pm

re: #324 FurryOldGuyJeans

How easy do you think performing a pre-frontal lobotomy would be if you use frozen peas instead of all the surgical instruments doctors routinely use?

Sounds like a science xperiment. Use your sinus cavities as a petri dish.

334 brookly red  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:22:19pm

re: #315 Shug

Let's share his 66.

I'd settle for 33

Wahhh, is that a new O program?/

335 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:22:22pm

re: #324 FurryOldGuyJeans

How easy do you think performing a pre-frontal lobotomy would be if you use frozen peas instead of all the surgical instruments doctors routinely use?

OKEY DOKEYS...:)

336 jorline  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:22:24pm

re: #312 screaming_eagle

I'll trade our 23 for your 66

lol...I've had to mow twice already...really sucks.

337 chicago blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:22:25pm

I know this isn't scientific, but my frozen feet, chapped hands and sore back from spending the better part of the day shoveling/snow blowing tell me he's full of it...

338 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:22:50pm

re: #265 Last Mohican

Contrary to what creationists will have you believe, cavemen did not exist until about 65 million years after dinosaurs were extinct.

Cavemen, like the Flinstones, were appalled by the wasteful, environmentally insensitive ways of the ancient dinosaurs, with their massive dinosaurmobiles. That's why the cavemen used green technology, like those foot-powered cars. Cavemen were sensitive, caring souls. Dinosaurs sucked.

Great,now I find out those caveman Geico shows aren't accurate.

339 sattv4u2  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:23:02pm

Will, Jindal, Coulter, Hannity, Huckabee, Evangelicals, RINO's, ALL under the bus now!

Come 2012, we won't need a convention center for the Republican National Convention. All we'll need is a phone booth!

340 jorline  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:23:26pm

re: #308 ggt

Hello Lizards, I'm back and it's still snowin' and blowin' in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chiagoland.

What are we talking about?

wb, ggt

What's snow?
//

341 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:23:38pm

re: #333 ggt

Sounds like a science xperiment. Use your sinus cavities as a petri dish.

No thanks. I only think about doing that when I am threatened with some real torture like watching Howard the Duck. Now that would be cruel.

342 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:23:39pm

re: #331 Naso Tang

In truth I suspect the present economic slowdown will reduce greenhouse gases more than years of slowly "cleaning up" emissions.

It will be interesting to see if anyone claims to be able to measure that sometime.

Demand for oil has taken a nosedive since last summer. I too wait for any research results on that!

343 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:23:52pm

re: #340 jorline

wb, ggt

What's snow?
//

white fluffy stuff that get's in your way.

344 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:24:07pm

I know I just contributed to global warming when I bought my "pimping gold" colored F-150 last Monday. I'm sorry, but that is the only way I can think of to describe the color.

345 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:24:53pm

re: #341 FurryOldGuyJeans

No thanks. I only think about doing that when I am threatened with some real torture like watching Howard the Duck. Now that would be cruel.

Napolean Dynamite. That was so torturous the kid turned if off.

346 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:25:01pm

re: #336 jorline

lol...I've had to mow twice already...really sucks.

Don't expect tears from me. Mowing is better than shoveling.

347 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:25:02pm
348 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:25:15pm

re: #238 nyc redneck

global warming has become a religion for some people. and algore the big fat preacher man pushing salvation for a price.

There's another religion on the other side, for whom Al Gore is the great satan whose evil temptations must be resisted at all costs. And their ringleaders are doing a lot of lying. This thread is just highlighting one small sample from a huge tsunami of such crap.

349 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:25:27pm

re: #311 Walter L. Newton

Me thinks you will be waiting a fucking long time. We have this concept in this country, it's called freedom of speech, which we do here on LGF.

I've given you my opinion, a number of times, and you have responded. I'm not going to retract what I have said, so, leave it alone, let it lie, it's my opinion. My opinion is you have been dishonest here today.

Tomorrow or next week or sometime in the future, I may agree whole heartily with something you say, or you may do the same with a statement or opinion of mine.

That's the way adults communicate. We don't always agree, we don't even have to be right (I could be totally wrong), but, one thing we don't do as adults (or at least I don't do) is whine like a little child.

This is not about agreement.

I have given you 4 opportunities to quote me to justify that I took anyone's quote out of context.

I have give you 4 opportunities to cite where I am dishonest.

You have now become a coward and have refused to do so, claiming you have the freedom of speech to assert blatant falsehoods about me without having the courage to take back what you said.

The great irony is that you purported to lecture me about morals and dishonesty, (how this conversation began), and you have demonstrated that you are the one who is dishonest.

Otherwise you would have quoted what I said.

Again, I am still waiting for you to take back what you said calling me dishonest and a quote miner. Those are not opinions. Those are falsehoods about me.

Quote what I said to prove your statements or take back what you said.

350 jorline  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:25:37pm

re: #343 ggt

white fluffy stuff that get's in your way.

I've heard the NAACP say the same thing.
/

351 Chicago Blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:25:39pm

re: #345 ggt

Arrrgh! I'd honestly rather shovel more than watch that thing again!

352 Scorch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:25:40pm

re: #337 chicago blonde

I know this isn't scientific, but my frozen feet, chapped hands and sore back from spending the better part of the day shoveling/snow blowing tell me he's full of it...


Other than the frozen feet I have the same symptoms but from planting all day.

353 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:25:53pm

re: #320 Last Mohican

You would have fit right in in Jurassic park!

354 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:26:17pm

re: #335 Dustyvet

Regretting you asked yet? ;)

Re: The Oscars

Considering the intent of the Oscars, trying to put a good face on what Hollywood does overall to try to hide all the scandals that happened back in the 1920s, the Oscars now are a celebration of what they were trying to hide originally.

355 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:26:18pm

re: #322 Salem

Beck is a creepy creep. You ever see the segment where he does a split-screen with a close-up on his eyes. In effect, a split-screen with himself. But I don't know how anyone could see that and not think the guy must be deranged. "LOOK! INTO MY EYES!"

Ok, That's the first time I've seen him in let's say 6-8 months. Once in a while I listen to him on the radio, but even now, he's been starting to bore me.

Holy shit. He's back on something (or he should be). He's pudged out, his eyes have become very puffy, and his body english has become rather sinister.

The physical look certainly goes along with the changes I've noticed in his radio show topics and discussions.

Prediction. He is going to crash and burn with some major personal issue. Watch.

356 KingKenrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:26:29pm

re: #318 Right Brain

I read the Daily Tech report a month or so ago and concluded exactly what George Will did, why? Because its entitled "Sea Ice Ends Year at Same Level as 1979." That is not George Will writing, its a report from the Univ. of Illinois.

[Link: www.stumbleupon.com...]

Then there was the coup de grace wherein U of ILL then tries to backtrack by describing Will adding both the South Pole and North Pole together, yeah, OK, like U of Ill did.

Then three days later we have the coup coup de grace wherein Artic Sea Ice News notes a bum sensor on the weather satellite caused "a slowly growing underestimation of Arctic sea ice extent."

[Link: nsidc.org...]

It is likely that not only is George Will correct, but given the new data his claim is actually understated by around 193,000 sq. miles of ice not previously counted.

I'd say if the graph on that site is accurate, George Will is right.

357 Chicago Blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:26:34pm

re: #352 Scorch

Oooh, planting what and where? I crawled late into this thread...

358 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:26:42pm

re: #339 sattv4u2

Whigs are looking good about now, eh?

359 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:27:25pm

re: #345 ggt

Napolean Dynamite. That was so torturous the kid turned if off.

I can say I have yet to be subjected to such a horror, and have every intention of avoiding it all together.

360 jorline  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:27:25pm

re: #346 screaming_eagle

Don't expect tears from me. Mowing is better than shoveling.

Come visit me this summer when it's over 100 and 85% humidity. :)

361 Scorch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:27:35pm

re: #345 ggt

Napolean Dynamite. That was so torturous the kid turned if off.


I sat through the whole movie and felt quite a bit less educated after than at the beginning.

362 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:27:42pm

re: #359 FurryOldGuyJeans

Good Choice!

363 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:28:05pm

re: #330 rightside

Heh. dorian wouldn't have used the /...

LOL

That's funny..Good afternoon Rightside...

364 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:28:14pm

re: #355 Walter L. Newton

Speaking of pudged out, the Huckster seems to be packing a few extra pounds

365 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:28:18pm

re: #349 Devil's Advocate

Fuck off. Click on my name, you will find my personal email, my phone number, my address. You can get all pissed off and personal with me if you want.

Otay?

366 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:28:22pm

re: #359 FurryOldGuyJeans

Try Doctor Detroit.

367 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:28:23pm

re: #338 n in wi

Great,now I find out those caveman Geico shows aren't accurate.

But did the cavemen insure their Flinstonemobiles with Geico?
And is the Geico gekko a reminder of those dinosaurs?
Yabba dabba don't take this seriously.

368 Scorch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:28:29pm

re: #357 Chicago Blonde

Oooh, planting what and where? I crawled late into this thread...

Corn....South Texas.

369 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:28:52pm

re: #364 n in wi

Speaking of pudged out, the Huckster seems to be packing a few extra pounds

Who is the Huckster?

370 Chicago Blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:29:01pm

re: #360 jorline

Will you have cold sangria for me if I cut your lawn? I can deal with heat & humidity...

/Alas, I'm here because Mr. Blonde cannot

371 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:29:04pm

re: #360 jorline

Come visit me this summer when it's over 100 and 85% humidity. :)

NOPE Will be my turn to throw 85 in your face. :)

372 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:29:06pm

re: #339 sattv4u2

Will, Jindal, Coulter, Hannity, Huckabee, Evangelicals, RINO's, ALL under the bus now!

Come 2012, we won't need a convention center for the Republican National Convention. All we'll need is a phone booth!

Soon they will look to doing recreations of the Nuremberg rallies and Pagan Rites, just as O has done.

373 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:29:10pm

re: #345 ggt

You know, the more I see "Superbad" the more I can't watch it. I saw it in the theaters and it was pretty funny, but now I can't stand it. The stars are so...awkward. It's an entire movie about awkwardness.

374 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:29:49pm

re: #366 rightside

Try Doctor Detroit.

Is that Michael J. Fox? No thanks.

375 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:29:51pm

re: #348 Jimmah

There's another religion on the other side, for whom Al Gore is the great satan whose evil temptations must be resisted at all costs. And their ringleaders are doing a lot of lying. This thread is just highlighting one small sample from a huge tsunami of such crap.

That reminds me of this exchange on another LGF thread, you probably remember it:

Basho:

re: #1056 axeman1

The vast majority of schools of all stripes worldwide preach [...] global warming, peer - review be damned.

Which peer-reviewed articles say there is no global warming?

Grundle:

There is no global warming. Are you an imbecile? Church of ALGORE.

376 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:30:04pm

re: #354 FurryOldGuyJeans

Regretting you asked yet? ;)

Re: The Oscars

Considering the intent of the Oscars, trying to put a good face on what Hollywood does overall to try to hide all the scandals that happened back in the 1920s, the Oscars now are a celebration of what they were trying to hide originally.

Well once upon a time when I was young and innocent (God, am I digging). I used to enjoy the Oscars. These days I think I'd settle for a root canel.


/S

377 Chicago Blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:30:07pm

re: #368 Scorch

Oh man, that sounds good. Fresh sweet corn....mmmmmmmmmm....

378 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:30:07pm

re: #322 Salem

Beck is a creepy creep. You ever see the segment where he does a split-screen with a close-up on his eyes. In effect, a split-screen with himself. But I don't know how anyone could see that and not think the guy must be deranged. "LOOK! INTO MY EYES!"

He explained that one night.
He claims he's doing that as a way to get close to the audience, to really connect with the audience, because we don't look each other in the eye anymore.
That's what he said.

379 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:30:10pm

Calvin and Hobbes come to life.

Liveleak Video
380 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:30:19pm

re: #369 Walter L. Newton

Who is the Huckster?

Mike Huckabee

381 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:30:37pm

re: #365 Walter L. Newton

Fuck off. Click on my name, you will find my personal email, my phone number, my address. You can get all pissed off and personal with me if you want.

Otay?

No.

You take back what you said about me or quote what I said to justify it.

382 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:30:58pm

re: #360 jorline

Come visit me this summer when it's over 100 and 85% humidity. :)

Hey Jorline..We got 3 " today of snow.. I'll swap you mowing grass in 100 degrees than shoveling a real long driveway in 18 degrees..
What's up bro?

383 Right Brain  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:31:32pm

re: #327 Shug

Dunno, here is a different link for the same site:

Sea Ice ends Year at Same Level as 1979
[Link: www.dailytech.com...]

and Satellite sensors errors cause data outage
[Link: nsidc.org...]

384 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:31:35pm

re: #376 Dustyvet

Well once upon a time when I was young and innocent (God, am I digging). I used to enjoy the Oscars. These days I think I'd settle for a root canel.

/S

I haven't watched the Oscars since Schindler's List won. (I agreed with that one.)

I'd rather spend the time in Oscar the Grouch's trash can. (As anyone who has seen my office can attest.)

385 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:31:37pm

re: #363 HoosierHoops

Afternoon, HH!re: #374 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't remember...I know it has Dan Aykroyd in it.

386 Chicago Blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:31:59pm

re: #382 HoosierHoops

What HoosierHoops said.

387 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:32:46pm

re: #385 rightside

Afternoon, HH!re: #374 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't remember...I know it has Dan Aykroyd in it.

I was thinking of another BAAD doctor movie starring MJ Fox. DD should have been banned as being DDT.

388 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:32:52pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

He's really going off the deep end.

I hope he gets it over with and drops out of the picture (TV and radio, to be cautiously specific). He's really annoying.

389 jorline  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:32:55pm

re: #370 Chicago Blonde

Will you have cold sangria for me if I cut your lawn? I can deal with heat & humidity...

/Alas, I'm here because Mr. Blonde cannot

Hell, I even make lemonade popsicles. ;)

390 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:33:08pm

re: #382 HoosierHoops

I'd rather shovel than mow.

391 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:33:11pm

re: #384 Kosh's Shadow

I haven't watched the Oscars since Schindler's List won. (I agreed with that one.)

I'd rather spend the time in Oscar the Grouch's trash can. (As anyone who has seen my office can attest.)

Your office and my apartment...:)

392 Chicago Blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:33:36pm

re: #389 jorline

Sounds good to me.

393 Right Brain  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:33:37pm

re: #356 KingKenrod

Thats my conclusion entirely, and thats without the massive satellite error that appeared three days later. Charles what "misrepresenting facts?"

394 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:33:56pm

re: #391 Dustyvet

Your office and my apartment...:)

My wife makes sure that most of the house stays in better shape.

395 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:34:12pm

re: #390 ConservatismNow!

I'd rather shovel than mow.

I'd prefer neither, thank you very much. ;)

396 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:34:34pm

re: #390 ConservatismNow!

I'd rather shovel than mow.

You must live somewhere that is greatly effected by global warming.

397 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:34:40pm

re: #380 n in wi

Mike Huckabee

Ha, I didn't even notice in the video who that was. Like I said, in the past, i listened to him a lot. About the time CNN dumped him and he was setting up to move to Fox, editorially, things changed. I don't know if it was from some direction that Fox producers were giving him, or what, but he changed.

A lot of "god" talk. Yea, I know he's a Morman, and his faith slips into his conversation off and on, and fine. But lately, it's like become a preacher standing in the pulpit waiting for the end.

And just other things.

And now that I look at his physicality, I say, something is wrong. We shall see.

398 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:34:52pm

re: #274 Basho

I think I noticed in a prior post that the first point of your list was contradicted by someone else's data.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that this issue will remain as contentious as it is as long as people keep quoting contradictory data. To a significant extent we have the same problem with evolution/creationism issues.

As someone else said, I'm not a scientist, but I do know that we will likely be able to take a cruise ship to the North Pole in my lifetime.

I'm just trying to decide which science to believe, as opposed to which politics, because to reject a scientific view because one happens to have contempt for some of the messengers, is not good science.

399 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:35:00pm

Charles, for the love of Darwin, please program an 'ignore' button!

400 jorline  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:35:05pm

re: #378 reine.de.tout

He explained that one night.
He claims he's doing that as a way to get close to the audience, to really connect with the audience, because we don't look each other in the eye anymore.
That's what he said.

Hi. reine!

The cookbook came in Thursday...looks great.

401 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:35:37pm

re: #395 FurryOldGuyJeans

If I'm forced to do work around the house, it'd be shoveling. Every time I mow during the summer, I feel horrible for the rest of the day. Shovelling? Just sore hands and arms.

402 CynicalConservative  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:36:00pm

re: #399 rightside

Charles, for the love of Darwin, please program an 'ignore' button!

That be like a personal GAZE filter!?! Cool!

403 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:36:03pm

re: #386 Chicago Blonde

What HoosierHoops said.

that's right Sister You can always drink ice tea in the summer and sweat the fat off..In the wintertime..not so much..It's hot chocolate all around..

404 brookly red  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:36:38pm

re: #395 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'd prefer neither, thank you very much. ;)

I had 2 to 3" of take out menus last night... is it better to sweep or shovel?

405 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:36:40pm

re: #400 jorline

Hi. reine!

The cookbook came in Thursday...looks great.

Afternoon, Jorline!
Great, hope you enjoy.
Play with that recipe for crab au gratin and put it in your restaurant.
You can use shrimp, instead, if you prefer.

406 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:37:16pm

re: #401 ConservatismNow!

If I'm forced to do work around the house, it'd be shoveling. Every time I mow during the summer, I feel horrible for the rest of the day. Shovelling? Just sore hands and arms.

"Luckily" my disability makes it nigh on physically impossible to do either. Mowing is infinitesimally easier.

407 Chicago Blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:37:30pm

re: #403 HoosierHoops

You can always drink ice tea in the summer and sweat the fat off


Yep. Right now I'm trying to thaw out and I'm craving a meatball pizza.
No, I have no idea...

408 jorline  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:37:31pm

re: #382 HoosierHoops

Hey Jorline..We got 3 " today of snow.. I'll swap you mowing grass in 100 degrees than shoveling a real long driveway in 18 degrees..
What's up bro?

I keep the heat...the beach is close by.

I'm well Hoopster, how are you? Mrs. Hoopster put her dancing shoes tonight?

409 windhorse  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:37:33pm

Huckabee is an ordained Baptist Minister.

410 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:37:37pm

re: #396 screaming_eagle

You must live somewhere that is greatly effected by global warming.

We had about a 1/4 inch of fluffy global warming flakes last night in Golden, Co. In the mountains they've had a good amount of snow, in the foothills here, not so good, in Denver and the plains, really light. For a matter of fact, a number of area east of the divide is under "red" fire warnings.

411 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:37:43pm

re: #402 CynicalConservative

yes, exactly!

412 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:37:57pm

re: #394 Kosh's Shadow

My wife makes sure that most of the house stays in better shape.

Just me and the cat now, and the cat can't be bothered with it all.

413 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:38:17pm

re: #310 Slumbering Behemoth

No problem. Another body - almost said - naw fuck it I will say it - another planet that sceptics bring up is Pluto. It has been warming for years, true, but what sceptics have a habit of not mentioning is that it is on a long elliptical orbit that takes many years to complete, and for the period concerned it was nearing the sun. This is from another article from MIT on this, which also accounts for a lag in the effect that sceptics will likely try to exploit:

[Link: web.mit.edu...]

David Tholen, an astronomer at the University of Hawaii who measured the size of Pluto in the late 1980s using a series of occultations and eclipses involving Pluto's satellite, noted that even though Pluto was closest to the sun in 1989, a warming trend 13 years later shouldn't be unexpected. "It takes time for materials to warm up and cool off, which is why the hottest part of the day on Earth is usually around 2 or 3 p.m. rather than local noon, when sunlight is the most intense," Tholen said. Because Pluto's year is equal to about 250 Earth years, 13 years after Pluto's closest approach to the Sun is like 1:15 p.m. on Earth. "This warming trend on Pluto could easily last for another 13 years," Tholen estimated.

414 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:38:54pm

re: #399 rightside

Charles, for the love of Darwin, please program an 'ignore' button!

He could even call it the Iggy button. ;)

415 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:39:17pm

re: #348 Jimmah

There's another religion on the other side, for whom Al Gore is the great satan whose evil temptations must be resisted at all costs. And their ringleaders are doing a lot of lying. This thread is just highlighting one small sample from a huge tsunami of such crap.

here's what bothers me: this insane off putting hysteria regarding the issue.
pollution is one thing. and i am totally against it. the worst offenders are india and china, where in many places you can't even breathe the air. it makes more sense to me to go to work and clean up the most egregious filthy locations.
rather than fear monger the rest of us into giving up our rights to enjoy life at a reasonable expectation. not to mention keep our hard earned money in our pockets.
the way the left approaches this problem is reprehensible
when my nephew was 8 yrs. old he used to come home from school in tears at what he was being "taught" abt. polar bears. how irresponsible is that?

416 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:39:24pm

re: #414 FurryOldGuyJeans

He could even call it the Iggy button. ;)

Some people would call the Walter button, I bet!

417 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:39:46pm

re: #414 FurryOldGuyJeans

He could even call it the Iggy button. ;)

Can we have a dogma button too?...:)

418 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:40:04pm

Well- I think George misrepresented Darwin last month too, so I guess it's not surprising he'd misrepresent other science too.

419 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:40:23pm

re: #381 Devil's Advocate

No.

You take back what you said about me or quote what I said to justify it.

No

(just checking to see if you are still lurking)

420 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:40:27pm

Why the Democrat party is way scary.

He [Congressman Jerry McNerney (D-Pleasanton) ] told me that he thought tax rates should go up for the very rich and that the top marginal tax rate should be 90%.

read the whole thing.

421 KingKenrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:40:41pm

re: #393 Right Brain

Thats my conclusion entirely, and thats without the massive satellite error that appeared three days later. Charles what "misrepresenting facts?"

Yeah, the graph shows the peak ice coverage in 1979 at ~22.1 million sq. km, and the 2008 peak at the same.

422 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:41:01pm

re: #418 Sharmuta

Well- I think George misrepresented Darwin last month too, so I guess it's not surprising he'd misrepresent other science too.

Up ding, just because you are you!

423 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:41:32pm

re: #413 Jimmah

another planet that sceptics bring up is Pluto.

It's dwarf planet!
HANG HIM!

424 jorline  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:42:25pm

re: #405 reine.de.tout

Afternoon, Jorline!
Great, hope you enjoy.
Play with that recipe for crab au gratin and put it in your restaurant.
You can use shrimp, instead, if you prefer.

I saw your recipe and can't wait to try it. I also love Green Chili Stew, so Songbirds contribution will get used a lot also.

425 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:42:28pm

re: #422 Walter L. Newton

Up ding, just because you are you!

I just won't stand for it, Walter! That's why I'm sitting. ;p

426 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:43:03pm

re: #415 nyc redneck

I dig it. If the facts presented confirm that the climate is changing, I can accept that. It is the agenda that the leftists are pushing while pointing to climate change that I will not accept.

427 Scion9  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:43:46pm

re: #420 FrogMarch

What a relief. 90% tax rates means he believes in private property at least to some degree. That is way more right wing than most of the Democrats I know.

428 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:43:52pm

re: #405 reine.de.tout

I loved the comment for the crab au gratin. That was pretty funny. Missus CM's got some good recipes for vol. 2 whenever that project gets started.

429 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:44:11pm

re: #408 jorline

I keep the heat...the beach is close by.

I'm well Hoopster, how are you? Mrs. Hoopster put her dancing shoes tonight?

We went out last night about 9pm..dancing the night away...
so much fun

430 hopperandadropper  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:44:35pm

re: #31 Charles

Haven't read this entire thread, but want to point out that at the end of 2008 the Arctic sea ice extent was the same as it was at the end of 1979, according to a number of things I read. I believe it was the University of Illinois center data that were used for this comparison, but am not certain about that. The rate of increase had leveled off in late December, so if that trend continued it would probably put current levels below the 1979 comparator. However, the fact that one of the main satellites used for these measurements has proven to have a faulty sensor may help to explain this disparity. Can't say for sure, but what I do know is that the Al Gore side of this argument consistently misrepresents all kinds of things to support their arguments. The prime example is their pretense that the results of computer models constitute data.

431 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:44:44pm

re: #378 reine.de.tout

He explained that one night.
He claims he's doing that as a way to get close to the audience, to really connect with the audience, because we don't look each other in the eye anymore.
That's what he said.

Well, I trust you can see how someone who missed his explanation might confuse the context. His intent to be more folksy doesn't make it any less unnerving, though. I always look people in the eyes when they talk to me, except when they're obviously as crazy as a shit-house rat. Unfortunately, except for the crazies, people tend to shrink from my piercing eyes. I don't want to eat your soul, I just want you to know I'm listening! 8)

432 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:44:54pm

re: #294 Iron Fist

I'm entirely with you on Kyoto and excluding China, India, Africa and who knows what.

Hey, those place got to pass go on the industrial revolution. They should pay royalties. (/)

However, I'm sure you notice that Kyoto is not what the main discussion is about; it's the science and the truth is that few us here are qualified to really participate.

Does that me we have to start getting into faith again?

433 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:44:58pm

The climate changes all the time. That's how the Great Lakes got to be here.

What I find laughable is the left's demands that we return to the stone age.

434 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:45:03pm

re: #418 Sharmuta

Well- I think George misrepresented Darwin last month too, so I guess it's not surprising he'd misrepresent other science too.

That does seem to be an on-going trend, putting agenda first instead of accurate reporting no matter where the data points.

435 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:45:29pm

Multiculturalism gone too far?
Athiest does stand up comedy in a church - subtitled in english

Liveleak Video

The priest and the congregation give up some laughs.

436 Chicago Blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:45:44pm

And on that note, I have to hop out again - got to get ready for date night with Mr. Blonde. I'll see you guys tomorrow!

437 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:46:09pm

re: #433 WhiteRasta

The climate changes all the time. That's how the Great Lakes got to be here.

What I find laughable is the left's demands that we you return to the stone age.

they will continue doing as they do. they want you in the stone age

438 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:46:17pm

re: #433 WhiteRasta

Well, at least some of them are reasonable. They are willing to settle for The Iron Age.

439 jorline  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:46:40pm

re: #436 Chicago Blonde

And on that note, I have to hop out again - got to get ready for date night with Mr. Blonde. I'll see you guys tomorrow!

Have a great time.

440 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:46:42pm

re: #423 Basho

It's dwarf planet!
HANG HIM!

One Albert Pierrepoint special isle 5...:)


/s

441 lookingup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:46:45pm

I like George Will and have found him to have moments of brilliance. I have not found him deliberately dishonest, and I will give him the benefit of a doubt on this. If he misunderstood, and how many of us have said something wrong and later correct it, then I say give some time for him to do so. Nothing happens instantaneously. We have long memories.

442 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:46:54pm

re: #420 FrogMarch

Why the Democrat party is way scary.

He [Congressman Jerry McNerney (D-Pleasanton) ] told me that he thought tax rates should go up for the very rich and that the top marginal tax rate should be 90%.

read the whole thing.

Well, it may be time.
HT (Walter)

443 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:47:38pm

So far, this is my favorite part:

There’s a lot of wiggly, lawyerly language here. What does it mean for the editors to check facts “to the fullest extent possible”?

When it comes to the press, isn't that the ever-lovin' question?!

444 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:47:41pm

re: #437 Shug

they will continue doing as they do. they want you in the stone age

Very true. The left politburo wants us all in the stone age while they live in their 21st century ivory towers and rule us peasants. It isn't about the climate, it's about government control of people's lives.

445 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:47:53pm

re: #405 reine.de.tout

Hey Reine, congratulations to you and other contributors on the success of the LGF Cookbook and all the positive feedback you are receiving. If I had the extra cash I'd have a copy myself. Got your site bookmarked just in case that happens.

+1

446 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:48:34pm

re: #430 hopperandadropper

You mean Antarctic, don't you?

There are satellite pictures of this. I don't know why it is a controversial issue.

447 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:48:59pm

Print lots and lots of money
gut the military
give every American healthcare, even if they don't want or need it
tax the Hell out of the people who are actually making money
give Joe Blow 6 dollars more per week in his paycheck
give a tax rebate to people who aren't paying taxes

yes, Mr President that will solve the problems with the economy

448 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:49:37pm

Just got back from seeing Gran Torino. IMO a great movie.
It could never be up for an Oscar in any category , because of the politically incorrect dialouge.
It had a plot very similar to an old John Wayne movie, The Shootist.
The Duke plays John Wesley Hardin & ron Howard & Lauren Bacall were in it.
I know that some of you saw Gran Torino, what did you think?

449 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:49:43pm

re: #447 Shug

Print lots and lots of money
gut the military
give every American healthcare, even if they don't want or need it
tax the Hell out of the people who are actually making money
give Joe Blow 6 dollars more per week in his paycheck
give a tax rebate to people who aren't paying taxes

yes, Mr President that will solve the problems with the economy

Package it in a 5 year plan and it will be perfect.

450 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:49:46pm

re: #442 jcm

I'm glad that reporter called for the tea party during the summer LOL

451 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:50:49pm

re: #447 Shug

But, but, but, he said he'd give a tax break to 95% of taxpayers!

452 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:51:00pm

re: #432 Naso Tang

However, I'm sure you notice that Kyoto is not what the main discussion is about; it's the science and the truth is that few us here are qualified to really participate.

No, no, that dog don't hunt.

453 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:51:10pm

re: #431 Salem

Well, I trust you can see how someone who missed his explanation might confuse the context. His intent to be more folksy doesn't make it any less unnerving, though. I always look people in the eyes when they talk to me, except when they're obviously as crazy as a shit-house rat. Unfortunately, except for the crazies, people tend to shrink from my piercing eyes. I don't want to eat your soul, I just want you to know I'm listening! 8)

Well, sure - he only explained it the first time.
Myself, I think it's creepy with or without the context, and I thought his explanation was just plain weird.

454 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:51:16pm

re: #450 rightside

I'm glad that reporter called for the tea party during the summer LOL


I'm all for a tea party since I feel like I'm getting tea-bagged by Obama's tax policy

455 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:51:30pm

re: #451 rightside

But, but, but, he said he'd give a tax break to 95% of taxpayers!

Yep, they'll all be broke.

456 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:51:56pm

re: #444 Jetpilot1101

Very true. The left politburo wants us all in the stone age while they live in their 21st century ivory towers and rule us peasants. It isn't about the climate, it's about government control of people's lives.

i agree,
i don't think those pushing this care abt. the climate.
they are using this as a way to control us.
and empower themselves.

457 Nevergiveup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:52:01pm

re: #454 Shug

I'm all for a tea party since I feel like I'm getting tea-bagged by Obama's tax policy

Thanks. I'm gonna have to fall asleep to that thought tonight?

458 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:52:39pm

80% of the IPCC membership have no ties to "Climate Science"...

[Link: www.johnlocke.org...]

Who really believes anything this gang of BS artists has to say?

459 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:52:43pm

re: #441 lookingup

I like George Will and have found him to have moments of brilliance. I have not found him deliberately dishonest, and I will give him the benefit of a doubt on this. If he misunderstood, and how many of us have said something wrong and later correct it, then I say give some time for him to do so. Nothing happens instantaneously. We have long memories.

THe fact is that the University of Illinois study does debunk the Global Warming hysteria. Incidently, Will is from Champaign Illinois.

460 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:52:50pm

re: #443 Sharmuta

Fact checking would take time away from changing the world, and show an agenda is the basis of what gets reported and how.

461 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:52:54pm

The rest of that paragraph is good too:

As I mentioned in my last post, magazine like Discover and the New Yorker assign a person to check every point in an article. It can become the fact-checker’s Moby Dick. The fact-checker doesn’t rely on press releases or blog posts, but calls scientists up to get the best information.

There's a novel concept!

Maybe some lawmakers in New Mexico, Alabama, Florida, Missouri, Texas, and various other states could do the same instead of flashy propaganda outlets like the Discovery Institute and Answers in Genesis. Just an idea.

462 solomonpanting  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:53:14pm

re: #433 WhiteRasta

The climate changes all the time. That's how the Great Lakes got to be here.

What I find laughable is the left's demands that we return to the stone age.

All the while, many of said leftists still reside in the Stoned stage.

463 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:53:14pm

re: #451 rightside

But, but, but, he said he'd give a tax break to 95% of taxpayers! working families

I hate that term " working families"

464 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:54:21pm

re: #452 Salem

No, no, that dog don't hunt.

Don't know what you mean. In those circles it's called peer review. If you are one, congrats, and I'll pay close attention to your data in the future.

465 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:55:14pm

re: #291 HoosierHoops

You've met Tipp? Very cool..Thanks for the link

Yes, Andre is a very humble, soft spoken guy. When he was in his prime, only Lawrence Taylor was better at the LB position.

466 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:55:20pm

re: #463 Shug

I hate that term " working families"

Under Obama my kids will have to work to make ends meet......
//

467 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:55:24pm

The columnists on the right do a disservice to their cause when they misrepresent and get things wrong. It allows the alarmists to easily dismiss valid questions as more denialist talking points.

AGW is a reality, the greenhouse effect does exist. The next question isn't "should we do something about it" but rather how much should we do about it? How soon must we act?

The alarmist camp has the sky falling tomorrow, I'm in a camp that thinks the jury is still out and that we have a much longer time line to deal with it in. The more pressing problem is energy abundance vs. population if you must have alarm - we know pretty certainly that the horizon for 9 billion humans on earth is a scant forty years away.

468 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:56:01pm

re: #442 jcm

Well, it may be time.
HT (Walter)

Thanks.

469 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:56:15pm

re: #461 Sharmuta

The rest of that paragraph is good too:

There's a novel concept!

Maybe some lawmakers in New Mexico, Alabama, Florida, Missouri, Texas, and various other states could do the same instead of flashy propaganda outlets like the Discovery Institute and Answers in Genesis. Just an idea.

But if they talk to "Godless Atheist Scientists" they would have less of a firm foundation to promote their religious agenda.

470 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:56:36pm

re: #415 nyc redneck

I certainly agree with you that pollution ( and habitat destruction, I would add) should be among the highest priorities, and that India and China shouldn't be treated as special cases that aren't expected to clean house as well.

Obviously, the issue of what to do about the problem of AGW is a different one altogether from that of the science behind AGW. For many, I think, including myself in the past if I'm totally honest, being pissed off about some of the proposed responses was a motivation for adopting the sceptical stance towards the science.

471 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:56:37pm

re: #463 Shug

I hate that term " working families"

I wish someone else in my family worked. I am surrounded by people taking beans out of the bottle while I am busy trying to put them in.

472 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:57:43pm

re: #301 Nevergiveup

Thanks for the upding .... Andre converted because of his wife. He truly is a good man and his kids are beautiful.

473 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:57:56pm

Bad fact checking- gets them every time! re: #469 FurryOldGuyJeans

But if they talk to "Godless Atheist Scientists" they would have less of a firm foundation to promote their religious agenda.

That would put a damper on things.

474 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:58:55pm

re: #473 Sharmuta

Oopps- two thoughts collided. I blame Darwinists.

475 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:59:38pm

re: #442 jcm

People voted the Republican Majority out in 2006 because they could not and would not pare down spending, and yet spending has increased multi-fold since. Voters sure display split personality disorder when they vote for less spending and yet keep voting for the big spending party.

476 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:00:21pm

re: #474 Sharmuta

Oopps- two thoughts collided. I blame Darwinists.

You combined climate change with primate change.

477 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:00:37pm

Hi.

478 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:00:52pm

re: #474 Sharmuta

Oopps- two thoughts collided. I blame Darwinists.

Actually both thoughts complemented each other.

479 bryantms  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:00:57pm

Stick this in your pipe and smoke it: This makes things more complicated...

480 lostlakehiker  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:00:59pm

re: #54 Salem

The Global Warming Cult should be utterly and totally destroyed. Preferably, that should be done by showing how it's unarguably a load of politically motivated horseshit. But what do you do when facts don't matter to these people. The side that is right on this shouldn't have any need to cheat. There should be no lingering questions (there's no question in my mind, mind you), and playing by their rules will only leave these loose ends untied.

I don't think much of George Will, though. I don't think he pulls much water these days, anyhow. A lot of people just bust out laughing when the guy starts to speak. The guy acts like he could bend rebar with his sphincter.


Me included? I don't feel like I'm a troofer or a cultist. You're welcome to destroy my arguments or hunches. Data, facts, and tight reasoning will do it, IF the data and other facts tip your way.

Consider: your hot resentment of Al Gore's enriching himself selling carbon offsets like priests used to sell indulgences, a resentment I share, may be clouding your judgment when it comes to the possibility that Al Gore's seizing on a real problem as a starting point for a scam. Who says he's inventing it from whole cloth? What if the problem is real, even though his warnings of the earth melting into a pile of slag and then vaporizing are overblown?

Serious people, oh, say, from China, where they put little stock in U.S. political fevers, are taking it seriously. {The article of which the quote below is an excerpt gives details.}

mass migrations and war?

Jose Endundo, environment minister of Congo, said he recently visited huge Lake Victoria in nearby Uganda, at 80,000 square kilometers (31,000 square miles) a vital source for the Nile River, and learned the lake level had dropped 3 meters (10 feet) in the past six years — a loss blamed in part on warmer temperatures and diminishing rains.

In the face of such threats, "the rich countries have to give us a helping hand," the African minister said.

But it was Stern, former chief World Bank economist, who on Saturday laid out a case to his stranded companions in sobering PowerPoint detail.

If the world's nations act responsibly, Stern said, they will achieve "zero-carbon" electricity production and zero-carbon road transport by 2050 — by replacing coal power plants with wind, solar or other energy sources that emit no carbon dioxide, and fossil fuel-burning vehicles with cars running on electric or other "clean" energy.

Then warming could be contained to a 2-degree-Celsius (3.4-degree-Fahrenheit) rise this century, he said.

But if negotiators falter, if emissions reductions are not made soon and deep, the severe climate shifts and sea-level rises projected by scientists would be "disastrous."

It would "transform where people can live," Stern said. "People would move on a massive scale. Hundreds of millions, probably billions of people would have to move if you talk about 4-, 5-, 6-degree increases" — 7 to 10 degrees Fahrenheit. And that would mean extended global conflict, "because there's no way the world can handle that kind of population move in the time period in which it would take place."

481 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:01:07pm

re: #476 n in wi

You combined climate change with primate change.

How anthropomorphic

482 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:01:14pm

re: #464 Naso Tang

Don't know what you mean. In those circles it's called peer review. If you are one, congrats, and I'll pay close attention to your data in the future.

Nope. It's politics. None of their predictions have borne fruit. All they have is models. People most certainly do not have to comply with their own robbery, I don't care how many scientists disagree. The polar-bear people are in the same boat and they are clearly buffoons. They realised the planet really isn't warming, so they changed the rules in the middle of the game by calling it climate change. When I was a kid they were predicting an ice age. If you think they have any credibility then that's your problem. It's a massive hoax that is going nowhere but off a cliff.

483 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:01:24pm

well, i'm going to have some dark chocolate because, after all it is health food now.
and this one's "green" dark chocolate,
btw.

484 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:01:28pm

re: #467 Thanos

The alarmist camp never addresses the energy issues, they only want to impose restrictions on what we are currently using and tax us to death so we don't use as much. Case in point, in Cape Cod an organization called Cape Wind wants to put up a wind farm in Nantucket Sound. You would think that liberals like Kennedy and Kerry would support this but you'd be wrong. These Turbines may affect their view from their oceanfront homes so they are against it. Sure they couch their opposition in the form of arguments like "it will ruin the sound" or "it will damage the fishing industry" but to me it just looks like the NIMBY principle gone awry. Solution: we're putting wind turbines up in the restricted area of Otis ANG base and telling them to pound sand.

BTW, Duval Patrick, our esteemed governor, wants to not only raise the gas tax by 27 cents but tax motorist from MA per mile and add tolls at the RI/MA border.

485 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:01:29pm

I'm late to this party.

Has anyone posted this link yet?

Oceans are cooling according to NASA

Two separate studies through NASA confirm that since 2003, the world's oceans have been losing heat. In the peak of the recent warming trend, 1998 actually ranked 2nd to 1934 as the warmest year on record.

John Willis, an oceanographer at NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab, published his first report about the warming oceans. The article Correcting Ocean Cooling (see below) published on NASA's Earth Observatory page this week discussed his and other results. willis used data from1993-2003 that showed the warm-up and followed the Global Warming Theory. In 2006, he co-piloted a follow-up study led by John Lyman at Pacific Marine Environmental Laboratory in Seattle that updated the time series for 2003-2005. Surprisingly, the ocean seemed to have cooled. He was surprised, and called it a 'speed bump' on the way to global warming.

A second, independent study was conducted. Takmeng Wong and his colleagues at NASA’s Langley Research Center in Virginia came up with the same results. Wong studies net flux of solar energy at the top of our atmosphere. From the 1980s to 1990s his team noticed increased amounts net energy when comparing incoming solar energy to what Earth radiates and reflects. Since then, the solar flux has remained the same. Other studies have suggested that the sun's output has decreased in the past few years.

Wong's take is that melting arctic ice is responsible for the cooling of the oceans. I contend that if that were the case, why did it take until 2003 to show cooling, after a few decades of warming? Also, the UKMET office showed that Earth's temperatures have been cooling for the past five years. Since 75% of the planet is water, that would make sense. Just last week, I wrote about the arctic sea ice returning to 1979 levels just 1 1/2 years after the fear of the biggest summer ice retreat in 2007.

486 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:01:46pm
487 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:01:53pm

re: #476 n in wi

You combined climate change with primate change.

That's too good!

488 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:01:53pm

re: #477 Occasional Reader

Hi.

Hey You! everybody has been asking about you..How is the trip?

489 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:01:54pm

re: #477 Occasional Reader

Hi.

I thought you're a guy?

490 Devil's Advocate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:02:10pm

re: #419 Walter L. Newton

No

(just checking to see if you are still lurking)

You're a coward.

491 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:02:12pm

re: #475 FurryOldGuyJeans

People voted the Republican Majority out in 2006 because they could not and would not pare down spending, and yet spending has increased multi-fold since. Voters sure display split personality disorder when they vote for less spending and yet keep voting for the big spending party.

Hell of choice we've been given the last two cycles. A choice between really big spenders and really, really big spenders.

A pox on both their houses.

492 rightside  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:02:42pm

Holding my breath for codepink, et.al., to start protesting in 3..2..1...

493 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:02:51pm

re: #482 Salem

And let me add that they shouldn't be invited to take the rest of us off that cliff with them.

494 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:03:44pm

re: #480 lostlakehiker

"Serious people"... hmm:

In the face of such threats, "the rich countries have to give us a helping hand," the African minister said.

I smell agenda.

495 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:03:50pm

re: #480 lostlakehiker

How was the Dead Sea created?

496 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:03:52pm

re: #486 Iron Fist

Fist, this is the last time I invite you to a party at my house!

Liveleak Video

;-)

497 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:04:34pm

re: #491 jcm

Hell of choice we've been given the last two cycles. A choice between really big spenders and really, really big spenders.

A pox on both their houses.

It certainly was choice of suicide by cutting off our heads or slashing our wrists.

498 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:04:38pm

re: #479 bryantms

Stick this in your pipe and smoke it: This makes things more complicated...

193,000 miles give or take for a few weeks doesn't equate to the more than a million miles that George Will was off by, read up thread please.

499 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:04:59pm

re: #486 Iron Fist

I have more education, and am probably better read on most any subject that we could pick.

At the very least, you could definitely kick his ass.

500 Scion9  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:05:00pm

re: #467 Thanos

There is also the geological reality that our energy resources are scarce, which is unfortunately largely ignored. According to a lot of people apparently geology is 'junk science' and peak oil/coal is a hoax by energy companies.

I'd really like to hear some realistic science and technology based solutions (and covering 80% of the earths surface with solar panels and wind farms is not a 'solution') to combat climate change (and yes I'm aware they are being discussed by scientist, but as of right now they aren't even on the table for western governments), rather than ones that control human behavior by putting additional government reigns onto the economy.

501 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:05:12pm

OT: Just got home from coffee with my cousin and shopping. Picked up Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne and also Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, which I'm embarrassed to say I haven't read yet.

Anyways- opening up Infidel, and I see this review:

This woman is a major hero of our time. Please read her book and, if you like it as I do, recommend it to others.

-Richard Dawkins

Damn Darwinists! ////

502 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:05:44pm

Evolutionary theory did not take the same route as Global Warming "science", so don't compare them. AGW has not been subjected to a fraction of a fraction of the scrutiny that ET has.

503 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:05:48pm

re: #476 n in wi

You combined climate change with primate change.

Damn, I'm good. ;)

504 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:06:00pm

re: #495 screaming_eagle

How was the Dead Sea created?

The Dead Sea is an endorheic lake located in the Jordan Rift Valley, a geographic feature formed by the Dead Sea Transform (DST). This left lateral-moving transform fault lies along the tectonic plate boundary between the African Plate and the Arabian Plate. It runs between the East Anatolian Fault zone in Turkey and the northern end of the Red Sea Rift offshore of the southern tip of Sinai. There are two contending hypotheses about the origin of the low elevation of the Dead Sea. The older hypothesis is that it lies in a true rift zone, an extension of the Red Sea Rift, or even of the Great Rift Valley of eastern Africa. A more recent hypothesis is that the Dead Sea basin is a consequence of a "step-over" discontinuity along the Dead Sea Transform, creating extension of the crust with consequent subsidence.

Around three million years ago what is now the valley of the Jordan River, Dead Sea, and Wadi Arabah was repeatedly inundated by waters from the Mediterranean Sea. The waters formed in a narrow, crooked bay which was connected to the sea through what is now the Jezreel Valley. The floods of the valley came and went depending on long scale climatic change. The lake that occupied the Dead Sea Rift, named "Lake Sodom", deposited beds of salt, eventually coming to be 3 km (2 miles) thick.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

505 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:06:14pm

re: #488 HoosierHoops

Hey You! everybody has been asking about you..How is the trip?

The trip was excellent. Now, I´m waiting in Montevideo airport, to begin fourteen hours (or so) of air travel fun. Geh.

506 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:06:48pm

re: #486 Iron Fist

I know the man is a liar. A serial liar with virtually no credibility on much of any issue. I've seen him lie on so much, so often, that I wonder why anyone has faith in anything he says. It is clear enough from his actions that he doesn't really believe that we are about to have a global apocalypse because of AGW, but that is what he preaches.

FMSM is why he still has credibility.

507 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:06:54pm

re: #505 Occasional Reader

The trip was excellent. Now, I´m waiting in Montevideo airport, to begin fourteen hours (or so) of air travel fun. Geh.

You're a guy?

508 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:07:36pm
509 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:07:47pm

re: #505 Occasional Reader

The trip was excellent. Now, I´m waiting in Montevideo airport, to begin fourteen hours (or so) of air travel fun. Geh.

That's great.. I'll let the lizards know you are ok..
Don't drink the water down there..Stick with the beer!
*wink*

510 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:07:49pm

re: #507 Walter L. Newton

That's funny!

511 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:08:27pm

re: #507 Walter L. Newton

You're a guy?

Uh, yes. Is there a problem?

512 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:08:31pm

re: #499 Occasional Reader

At the very least, you could definitely kick his ass.

It's a pretty big target.
*sigh* I need to stop saying everything that pops into my head.

513 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:08:33pm

re: #508 Iron Fist

Hey, man, where you been? I had a report I wanted to give to you. I went shooting on President's day,...

Did you bag any? (Charles will delete in 3,2,1)

514 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:09:43pm

re: #508 Iron Fist

Hey, man, where you been? I had a report I wanted to give to you. I went shooting on President's day, and one of the weapons I got to play with was a S&W 686. You had mentioned that you were considering one as a second pistol. I have to say, I really like it. The one I got to play with was an older one. No trigger lock, six round cylinder (S&W makes a 7 round version now), with the firing pin on the trigger.

It's a beautiful thing. I want one. It is probably the slickest revolver I've ever fired. I don't think that there had been any customazation odne on the weapon (trigger job or anything like that).. in short, I was very impressed.

Thought you might like the opinion.

Thanks. I have indeed tried one out at my range. Very smooth revolver. Me like.

(I´ve been in Uruguay, on vacation, and mostly avoiding the internet, btw)

515 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:09:53pm

re: #505 Occasional Reader

I have heard that Montevideo has more beautiful women per square foot, than anywhere else on the planet.

Is this true?

516 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:10:26pm

re: #484 Jetpilot1101

The alarmist camp never addresses the energy issues, they only want to impose restrictions on what we are currently using and tax us to death so we don't use as much. Case in point, in Cape Cod an organization called Cape Wind wants to put up a wind farm in Nantucket Sound. You would think that liberals like Kennedy and Kerry would support this but you'd be wrong. These Turbines may affect their view from their oceanfront homes so they are against it. Sure they couch their opposition in the form of arguments like "it will ruin the sound" or "it will damage the fishing industry" but to me it just looks like the NIMBY principle gone awry. Solution: we're putting wind turbines up in the restricted area of Otis ANG base and telling them to pound sand.

BTW, Duval Patrick, our esteemed governor, wants to not only raise the gas tax by 27 cents but tax motorist from MA per mile and add tolls at the RI/MA border.


Certainly they do, they are informed by books like E.F. Schumacher's "Small is Beautiful", energy itself is the evil, not the pollution that it creates. They've solution-jumped in a problem they don't fully understand in order to rob 3rd world countries of the ability to become middle class.

It's certain that coal is bad, it's certain that burning carbon based fuel, whether it's ethanol or oil, is bad due to the pollution it introduces. They want to force an outcome by crushing the poor of the world.

The better course is to gradually ensure that all energy sources become cleaner, and to groom the world off of burning hydrocarbons. They are too valuable to burn at the end of the day.

517 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:10:29pm

re: #515 WhiteRasta

I have heard that Montevideo has more beautiful women per square foot, than anywhere else on the planet.

Is this true?

Women with square feet are not a turn-on.

518 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:10:45pm

re: #515 WhiteRasta

I have heard that Montevideo has more beautiful women per square foot, than anywhere else on the planet.

Is this true?

Must be pretty skinny woman, sq foot?

519 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:10:47pm

re: #515 WhiteRasta

I have heard that Montevideo has more beautiful women per square foot, than anywhere else on the planet.

Is this true?

It is no slouch in that department, but I would give top honors to Medellin, Colombia.

520 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:10:56pm

re: #513 Walter L. Newton

Walter. They are an endangered species. There's only 5 left in the world.

521 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:11:02pm

re: #515 WhiteRasta

I have heard that Montevideo has more beautiful women per square foot, than anywhere else on the planet.

Is this true?

Field trip!

522 Killian Bundy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:11:12pm

re: #451 rightside

But, but, but, he said he'd give a tax break to 95% of taxpayers!

And he did.

Obama: People should see tax cut help by April 1

Most workers are to see about a $13 per week increase in their take-home pay. In 2010, the credit would be about $7.70 a week, if it is spread over the entire year.

Don't spend it all in one place.

Hey America, Obama promised you that 95% of Americans would get tax relief, you fell for it, you [expletive deleted] up and voted for him, and this is how he kept his word. He never promised you a rose garden.

/now sit back and relax while he finishes completely destroying the U.S. economy

523 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:11:21pm

re: #513 Walter L. Newton

Did you bag any? (Charles will delete in 3,2,1)

Hell, a stiff wind would take out half of them.

524 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:11:22pm

re: #518 Walter L. Newton

Must be pretty skinny woman, sq foot?

Easier if they have square feet to squeeze 'em in.

525 lookingup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:11:31pm

The anthroprogenic global population has many of same people that think we can borrow our way out of debt.

526 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:12:17pm

re: #500 Scion9

There are solutions out there. It will take a combination of all that we have including coal for at least the next fifty years. Nuclear, Hydro, and geothermal are all under utilized even though there are great potentials for all three.

527 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:12:18pm
528 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:12:29pm

re: #501 Sharmuta

OT: Just got home from coffee with my cousin and shopping. Picked up Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne and also Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, which I'm embarrassed to say I haven't read yet.

Anyways- opening up Infidel, and I see this review:

Damn Darwinists! ////

It was Richard Dawkins that put me onto Ibn Warraq shortly after 9/11, recommending him in one of the major pieces he wrote just after that event. Warraq's Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society (ISIS) is where I learned about Islam, Jihad etc. That's the forum where I used to post before I came here.

529 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:12:32pm

re: #490 Devil's Advocate

You're a coward.

More of a Noel Coward, actually

530 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:12:55pm

Regarding the Lieberman-Warner Debate, Rep. Rohrabacher: “Do you really think the world is filled with morons?”

From the Congressional Record, this speech was given on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives.

...The first attempt to basically cover their tracks about this noticeable dichotomy in what they predicted and what was happening happened a few years ago, and it went very slowly but very cleverly. The words “climate change” have now replaced the words “global warming.” Get that? Every time you hear it now, half the time they are going to be using the words “climate change” where those very same people were so adamant about “global warming” only 4 or 5 years ago. So no matter what happens now, now that they’ve changed it to “climate change” rather than global warming, whatever happens to the weather pattern, whether it’s hotter or cooler, it can be presented as further verification of human-caused change. If you just had “human-caused warming,” it would have to be at least warming for them to actually have any verification of what they were trying to say. But right now by using “climate change,” they can bolster their right to be taken seriously upon recommending policies, even though no matter what direction the climate goes, it is justified by how they are labeling themselves.

I’m sorry, fellows. Do you really think the world is filled with morons? When it comes to bait and switch, used car salesmen are paragons of virtue compared to this global warming crowd. Excuse me. It’s not the “global warming” crowd now; it’s the “climate change” crowd. Of course, they don’t want any of us to own automobiles; so what the heck. They can act like used car salesmen because there will be more jobs for them as being advocates in the climate change arena.

We just need to ask ourselves, if a salesman gives a strong pitch and claims something that is later found to be wrong, totally wrong, when does one stop trusting that salesman? Then if he starts playing word games, changing the actual words that he’s using about the same product rather than just admitting an error, isn’t it reasonable to stop trusting him?

Read the whole thing.

531 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:13:20pm

re: #515 WhiteRasta

I have heard that Montevideo has more beautiful women per square foot, than anywhere else on the planet.

Is this true?

Also; within Uruguay, Punta del Este beats Montevideo in that department. Even my wife had to admit that the eye candy on the beach and in the streets was phenomenal.

532 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:13:30pm

re: #529 Shug

More of a Noel Coward, actually

Oh must be afraid of Christmas eh?


/S

533 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:13:51pm

re: #530 NJDhockeyfan

Regarding the Lieberman-Warner Debate, Rep. Rohrabacher: “Do you really think the world is filled with morons?”


Read the whole thing.


America is filled with 52% morons. They all voted for Obama.

534 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:13:54pm

re: #501 Sharmuta

Infidel is really exceptional. Truly amazing that she has kept her wonderful sense of life.

535 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:14:18pm
536 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:15:12pm

re: #531 Occasional Reader

Also; within Uruguay, Punta del Este beats Montevideo in that department. Even my wife had to admit that the eye candy on the beach and in the streets was phenomenal.

Eye candy. Now 100% fat free.

537 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:16:09pm

re: #535 ploome hineni

If they are, must be where my wife came from.

538 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:16:36pm

re: #490 Devil's Advocate

You're a coward.

Are you Robert Spenser or Eric Holder? Gonna threaten a libel lawsuit next?

539 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:16:46pm

Here´s an excellent piece by Mark Bowden in The Atlantic Monthly: The Last Ace. It explains how US fighter pilots attained breathtaking air dominance via the F-15 in the 1970s, and why this is threatened now. The F-22 is CRUCIAL. And of course, Obama will probably cut back on procurement.

540 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:16:49pm

re: #516 Thanos

To that point,I've wondered why we cannot be allowed to drill,refine and use our own oil. not on National lands,anyway. Something that would add to the world supplies and reduce the price.
Yet it seems preferable that we mine and refine our own steel. And put a tariff on imported steel. Something that raises the price.
I believe the Stimulus bill requires U.S. steel on all it's projects.
Hypocrisy at it's finest.

541 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:16:49pm

re: #531 Occasional Reader

I am sooooo jealous..I'm hoping to go to Chile later this year. I'll report back on the eye candy there...

542 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:17:07pm

re: #535 ploome hineni

are they still georgous over 30?

Many of them, yes.

543 Scion9  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:17:16pm

re: #526 Thanos

I'll eat my hat when Democrats start pushing for nuclear energy, or start up a Manhattan project for alternative energy sources for that matter.

544 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:17:43pm

re: #537 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

If they are, must be where my wife came from.

Hey Mrs. Fat Bastard Vegetarian, come look what I wrote about you. Are you feeling frisky tonight?

545 retief_99  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:17:47pm

Using the most powerful computers in the world, "scientists" are loading all the variables affecting the climate of this planet and then they ask it "what is going to happen 50 years from now"? Anyone who works with computes where you must write programs to direct the computer to do some task knows how daunting this would be. Imagine the tens of thousands of variables that must be quantified, and entered properly into the software to reach a prediction. Yet using these same computers and same sorts of data they can't tell you what will happen a few hours from now with any real accuracy. There is little if any scientific evidence showing the earth is warming, actually the reverse is true we are apparently entering a cold phase. Sensor drift and thermometers placed on roofs near air conditioning ducts do not promote good science.

Mark

546 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:18:04pm

re: #535 ploome hineni

are they still georgous over 30?

Yes.

547 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:18:15pm

Mass migrations and war: Dire climate scenario


[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

548 KingKenrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:18:31pm

re: #485 NJDhockeyfan

I'm late to this party.

Has anyone posted this link yet?

Oceans are cooling according to NASA

One thing that is exceedingly predictable is how AGW advocates scramble over themselves to "explain" contradictory AGW evidence, i.e. this statement from JPL oceanographer John Willis:

Surprisingly, the ocean seemed to have cooled. He was surprised, and called it a 'speed bump' on the way to global warming.

Don't let that evidence speed bump get in the way, John.

549 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:18:38pm

re: #539 Occasional Reader

The F-22 has been cut. I don't have a link though.

550 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:18:38pm

re: #538 FurryOldGuyJeans

Are you Robert Spenser or Eric Holder? Gonna threaten a libel lawsuit next?

LOL

551 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:18:40pm

re: #544 Walter L. Newton

Hey Mrs. Fat Bastard Vegetarian, come look what I wrote about you. Are you feeling frisky tonight?

I like the way you think.

552 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:18:40pm

re: #540 n in wi

The using only US steel thing got shot down.

It would have violated several trade agreements.

553 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:18:49pm

Someone in real need of a bailout. Out of his financial situation, out of jail and his boat needs it too.

Informed of the suspicious circumstances, federal agents and Seattle detectives confronted Lewis. According to court documents, Lewis ultimately admitted to sinking the boat because the "financial pressure and frustration" of maintaining the boat "caused him extreme anxiety."
554 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:18:57pm

re: #538 FurryOldGuyJeans

Are you Robert Spenser or Eric Holder? Gonna threaten a libel lawsuit next?

Fight, fight! After school by the flag pole!

555 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:20:06pm

re: #522 Killian Bundy

The extra $7.70 per week next year - what will it amount to if adjusted for inflation?

556 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:20:20pm

re: #551 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I like the way you think.

I use to save links to all kinds of nice things I said about my ex-wife (ah, when she wasn't an ex) and let her find them in the bookmarks.

Didn't hurt.

557 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:20:37pm

re: #554 Wyatt Earp

Fight, fight! After school by the flag pole!

We used to go to the Dairy Home Quick shop across the street from the School...:)

558 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:20:40pm

re: #552 WhiteRasta

The using only US steel thing got shot down.

It would have violated several trade agreements.

And that would have stopped Obama how?

559 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:20:55pm

re: #537 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

If they are, must be where my wife came from.

I will say, my wife is no slacker, hotness-wise, amidst the Punta del Este crowd. (And no, she's not reading this.)

560 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:21:08pm

re: #555 debutaunt

The extra $7.70 per week next year - what will it amount to if adjusted for inflation?

Roughly -$50/wk.

561 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:21:14pm

re: #557 Dustyvet

We used to go to the Dairy Home Quick shop across the street from the School...:)

I use to go in the opposite direction. My moral compass was broke.

562 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:21:22pm

re: #554 Wyatt Earp

Fight, fight! After school by the flag pole!

But first, they have to put their tongues on it.

563 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:21:37pm

OT, met a couple today, lost their savings to that Stanford guy. Moved their money to him 5 weeks ago.

Very sad for them. Not only because they can't afford to buy from me.

564 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:21:48pm

re: #559 Occasional Reader

I will say, my wife is no slacker, hotness-wise, amidst the Punta del Este crowd. (And no, she's not reading this.)

She will be after I page her at the airport!

565 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:21:52pm

re: #553 jcm

The 2 happiest days of a boat owner's life: The day you buy it and the day you sell it....

566 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:22:27pm

re: #564 Walter L. Newton

She will be after I page her at the airport!

I don´t think you´ll get very far attempting to page "Mrs. Occasional Reader".

567 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:22:45pm

re: #561 Walter L. Newton

I use to go in the opposite direction. My moral compass was broke.

Well the fights where in the back of the stores back door...away from prying eyes from the school...:)

568 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:22:56pm

re: #565 WhiteRasta

The 2 happiest days of a boat owner's life: The day you buy it and the day you sell it....

What about the submarine I built in the basement?

569 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:23:37pm

re: #565 WhiteRasta

The 2 happiest days of a boat owner's life: The day you buy it and the day you sell it....

My Father in Law used to call his boat "a big hole in the water that he liked to throw his money into".

570 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:23:39pm

re: #558 n in wi

Protracted lawsuits, bad press. Etc, etc. Much easier to just not go there.

571 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:23:40pm

re: #566 Occasional Reader

I don´t think you´ll get very far attempting to page "Mrs. Occasional Reader".

Really. I bet it gets her attention. (you know I'm kidding with you right?)

572 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:23:45pm

re: #566 Occasional Reader

Funny that you say that. If you were hit by a truck, how would we know?

Why would we care?/ But, how would we know?

573 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:23:59pm

re: #540 n in wi

To that point,I've wondered why we cannot be allowed to drill,refine and use our own oil. not on National lands,anyway. Something that would add to the world supplies and reduce the price.
Yet it seems preferable that we mine and refine our own steel. And put a tariff on imported steel. Something that raises the price.
I believe the Stimulus bill requires U.S. steel on all it's projects.
Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Usually when someone advocates tariffs or boycotts against certain countries, they have no damned clue what they are talking about economically. It's interesting (and scary) when you read about the history of mercantilism and then look at what our own Congress advocates during a recession. You are absolutely right about that hypocrisy, but then again this all comes down to control. Mercantilism was refined and perfected under the absolutist state of Louis XIV. It was the perfect system for gold-standard absolutist monarchies, but it's a terrible system for a paper currency global economic juggernaut like the US, so why the hell do the Congresscritters advocate it? Control.

574 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:23:59pm

re: #568 FurryOldGuyJeans

What about the submarine I built in the basement?

Stop trying to Polaris-e the posters on this thread.

575 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:24:02pm

re: #568 FurryOldGuyJeans

What about the submarine I built in the basement?

Chicago's got a submarine in a basement, the U-505...

576 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:24:24pm

re: #534 debutaunt

Infidel is really exceptional. Truly amazing that she has kept her wonderful sense of life.

i so agree. she is really an inspiration. such a beautiful, intelligent and courageous person. it is incredible what she has done.

577 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:24:52pm

re: #557 Dustyvet

We used to go to the Dairy Home Quick shop across the street from the School...:)

Good place to get ice to stop the post-fight swelling.

578 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:24:54pm

re: #572 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Funny that you say that. If you were hit by a truck, how would we know?

From the headlines. "Greatest Genius Of Our Time Tragically Killed". Stuff like that.

579 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:25:39pm

re: #578 Occasional Reader

From the headlines. "Greatest Genius Of Our Time Tragically Killed". Stuff like that.

Or wife found roaming around airport looking for Occasional Reader.

580 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:25:42pm

re: #534 debutaunt

Infidel is really exceptional. Truly amazing that she has kept her wonderful sense of life.

I've been meaning to read it for so long now- I'm really excited to get to it and I'm honored to have purchased it and help a little financially.

581 vxbush  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:25:43pm

re: #575 Dustyvet

Chicago's got a submarine in a basement, the U-505...

I've been on that boat. Felt kind of weird, to be honest.

582 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:25:59pm

re: #571 Walter L. Newton

Really. I bet it gets her attention. (you know I'm kidding with you right?)

Yes, I managed to pick that up.

Just because the toilets flush in the other direction here doesn't mean my brain doesn't work. Well, works no worse than usual, anyway.

583 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:26:13pm

re: #540 n in wi

To that point,I've wondered why we cannot be allowed to drill,refine and use our own oil. not on National lands,anyway. Something that would add to the world supplies and reduce the price.
Yet it seems preferable that we mine and refine our own steel. And put a tariff on imported steel. Something that raises the price.
I believe the Stimulus bill requires U.S. steel on all it's projects.
Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Do a search on "blue green" alliance and you will find the Steel union worker alliance with "WE", Al Gore's pac . WE is really just a big Dem pac populated by anti-nuke advocates, biofuel pimps, Oil and Gas co. Flacks, clean coal pimps, cap and trade shell game artists, and Unions. The Republican party seems to be ignoring all that for some reason...

584 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:26:24pm

re: #578 Occasional Reader

From the headlines. "Greatest Genius Of Our Time Tragically Killed". Stuff like that.

Once again the media served up a heap of steaming lies, I see. ;)

585 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:26:39pm

re: #575 Dustyvet

Chicago's got a submarine in a basement, the U-505...

Isn't it actually outside of the museum?

586 retief_99  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:26:42pm

re: #508 Iron Fist
I read your post about the 686, just a quick comment. I was going to buy one but couldn't locate one close buy, dealer offered the Taurus equivalent model, can't remember the model number, turns out it is a fantastic pistol. all stainless, ported barrel, special trigger work (combat model) everyone who has fired it has raved about the pistol. I still own it and would be loathe to part with it. Can hit a 20 inch target about 8 out of 10 times at 100 meters, very nice.

Mark

587 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:27:09pm

re: #577 Wyatt Earp

Good place to get ice to stop the post-fight swelling.

Yeah...:) And spending time in detention till you where old enough to collect Social Security...:)

588 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:27:24pm

re: #584 FurryOldGuyJeans

Once again the media served up a heap of steaming lies, I see. ;)

I have authenticated text messages from 1972 that PROVE I'm the greatest genius of our time.

589 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:27:33pm

re: #587 Dustyvet

Yeah...:) And spending time in detention till you where old enough to collect Social Security...:)

Joke's on you! Social Security is broke now!

//

590 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:28:02pm

re: #588 Occasional Reader

I have authenticated text messages from 1972 that PROVE I'm the greatest genius of our time.

Al?

591 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:28:03pm

re: #588 Occasional Reader

I have authenticated text messages from 1972 that PROVE I'm the greatest genius of our time.

Heh. ;)

592 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:28:21pm

Good evening, Lizards.

Just a suggestion: never talk so fast at a junior high musical rehearsal that "break" and "rest" get slurred together.

593 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:28:25pm

re: #586 retief_99

dealer offered the Taurus equivalent model

It's just like the S&W, only more sensual. (Being Brazilian and all.)

594 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:28:27pm

re: #581 vxbush

Worked with a guy who had been on nuke boats during his hitch in the USN. He made the comment that the movie DAS BOOT was very realistic. He commented that when you first start out on a tour that food is everywhere and that you stop eating the eggs because you know how many weeks they've been literally under foot.

595 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:28:38pm

re: #573 ConservatismNow!

Control and Union voters.
Tariffs are a bad deal any way you slice it. Free trade between countries is the best way to have political allies around the world. But short sited Dems only seek to pander to the Unions that fund their campaigns.

596 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:28:52pm

re: #582 Occasional Reader

Yes, I managed to pick that up.

Just because the toilets flush in the other direction here doesn't mean my brain doesn't work. Well, works no worse than usual, anyway.

In the other direction, your brain. Oh, by the way, don't fly over any mysterious Islands.

Best line on LOST this last Wed. Frank Lapidis, the pilot who was suppose to be flying the play that crashed 4 years ago on the mysterious Island, is now piloting a plane to Guam, and he notices all these passengers that he knew from the Island (met them later in the series), and they are boarding his plane to Guam.

"I guess we're not going to Guam, are we?"

597 lookingup  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:28:56pm

re: #545 retief_99

Using the most powerful computers in the world, "scientists" are loading all the variables affecting the climate of this planet and then they ask it "what is going to happen 50 years from now"? Anyone who works with computes where you must write programs to direct the computer to do some task knows how daunting this would be. Imagine the tens of thousands of variables that must be quantified, and entered properly into the software to reach a prediction. Yet using these same computers and same sorts of data they can't tell you what will happen a few hours from now with any real accuracy. There is little if any scientific evidence showing the earth is warming, actually the reverse is true we are apparently entering a cold phase. Sensor drift and thermometers placed on roofs near air conditioning ducts do not promote good science.

Mark

The programs are so complicated and how is the proper weight for each of the individual conditions that cause positive or negative feedback. I understand that they do not include the PDO,

598 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:29:37pm

re: #585 Truck Monkey

Isn't it actually outside of the museum?

No, because of weather, and other factors she was moved indoors, and fully restored. She was off display for almost two years.

599 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:29:49pm

re: #582 Occasional Reader

Yes, I managed to pick that up.

Just because the toilets flush in the other direction here doesn't mean my brain doesn't work. Well, works no worse than usual, anyway.

Does the koran spin in an odd direction?

600 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:30:02pm

re: #588 Occasional Reader

I have authenticated text messages from 1972 that PROVE I'm the greatest genius of our time.

I remember looking at Richard Nixons Twitter page in 1972 and he was talking about you in the same light.

601 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:30:09pm

re: #595 n in wi

I never cease to be amazed at the things I learn from History classes especially considering how much those ideas affect in the modern world.

602 Wishing  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:30:19pm

re: #543 Scion9

I'll eat my hat when Democrats start pushing for nuclear energy, or start up a Manhattan project for alternative energy sources for that matter.

I don't think they are really interested in solutions, so don't expect a Manhattan project for alternative fuels anytime soon. What they do major in is whining, incessantly, until it becomes nails-on-the-blackboard. And when you slam your hands over your ears, you will be accused of being an insensitive lout.

603 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:30:27pm

re: #596 Walter L. Newton

In the other direction, your brain. Oh, by the way, don't fly over any mysterious Islands.

Best line on LOST this last Wed. Frank Lapidis, the pilot who was suppose to be flying the play that crashed 4 years ago on the mysterious Island, is now piloting a plane to Guam, and he notices all these passengers that he knew from the Island (met them later in the series), and they are boarding his plane to Guam.

"I guess we're not going to Guam, are we?"

Never mind. I fucked the typing up on this, and it doesn't make any sense.

604 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:30:45pm

re: #600 Truck Monkey

I remember looking at Richard Nixons Twitter page in 1972 and he was talking about you in the same light.

No, he was on Nixon's "Enemies List."

605 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:30:57pm

re: #596 Walter L. Newton

My wife is now hooked on Lost. I have no idea what the heck she's talking about when she tries to explain it. It's like she's joined the Scientologists or something.

606 vxbush  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:31:00pm

re: #594 Perplexed

Worked with a guy who had been on nuke boats during his hitch in the USN. He made the comment that the movie DAS BOOT was very realistic. He commented that when you first start out on a tour that food is everywhere and that you stop eating the eggs because you know how many weeks they've been literally under foot.

Heh. Alas, unless things get really bad, I seriously doubt I will end up on a sub for any length of time.

607 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:31:06pm

re: #592 goddessoftheclassroom

Good evening, Lizards.

Just a suggestion: never talk so fast at a junior high musical rehearsal that "break" and "rest" get slurred together.

You mean like, "OK, gang, take a breast!" Is that what happened?

608 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:31:30pm

re: #607 wrenchwench

You mean like, "OK, gang, take a breast!" Is that what happened?

I'll take two!

609 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:31:53pm

re: #592 goddessoftheclassroom

Good evening, Lizards.

Just a suggestion: never talk so fast at a junior high musical rehearsal that "break" and "rest" get slurred together.

BOOB THREAD! GODDESS STARTED IT!

610 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:31:54pm

re: #602 Wishing

I don't think they are really interested in solutions, so don't expect a Manhattan project for alternative fuels anytime soon. What they do major in is whining, incessantly, until it becomes nails-on-the-blackboard. And when you slam your hands over your ears, you will be accused of being an insensitive lout.


Yep, the dems are the establishment party of the status quo, they don't want the future, they just want to reshuffle the wealth.

611 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:31:55pm

re: #605 Occasional Reader

My wife is now hooked on Lost. I have no idea what the heck she's talking about when she tries to explain it. It's like she's joined the Scientologists or something.

You'll find out. If I were you, I would start watching. It will make the transition easier later on.

612 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:32:09pm

re: #594 Perplexed

Worked with a guy who had been on nuke boats during his hitch in the USN. He made the comment that the movie DAS BOOT was very realistic. He commented that when you first start out on a tour that food is everywhere and that you stop eating the eggs because you know how many weeks they've been literally under foot.

I speak a little German. THE BOOT, right?

613 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:32:24pm

re: #482 Salem

Nope. It's politics. None of their predictions have borne fruit. All they have is models. People most certainly do not have to comply with their own robbery, I don't care how many scientists disagree. The polar-bear people are in the same boat and they are clearly buffoons. They realised the planet really isn't warming, so they changed the rules in the middle of the game by calling it climate change. When I was a kid they were predicting an ice age. If you think they have any credibility then that's your problem. It's a massive hoax that is going nowhere but off a cliff.

Sorry. I think you need to take an anti conspiracy pill. When you say you don't care how many scientists disagree with you all you are saying is that you no longer work by reason, whether it be right or wrong.

614 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:32:29pm

re: #606 vxbush

Heh. Alas, unless things get really bad, I seriously doubt I will end up on a sub for any length of time.

You and me both. Women and children would be drafted before they came for me (bad eyes, hearing shot, high BP, etc.)

615 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:32:44pm

re: #612 debutaunt

I speak a little German. THE BOOT, right?

No... THOSE BOOTS!

616 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:32:56pm

re: #608 Wyatt Earp

I'll take two!

Wise choice. They're like martinis, you see.

617 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:33:04pm

re: #615 Walter L. Newton

No... THOSE BOOTS!

Well, they are made for walkin'.

618 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:33:07pm

re: #605 Occasional Reader

My wife is now hooked on Lost. I have no idea what the heck she's talking about when she tries to explain it. It's like she's joined the Scientologists or something.

I can't figure it out also..Let's just write a bunch of nonsense and go in circles..
I just don't get it...

619 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:33:11pm

re: #569 Truck Monkey

Lol! Been there....

620 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:33:19pm

re: #607 wrenchwench

You mean like, "OK, gang, take a breast!" Is that what happened?

Yep, almost. I said, "Let's just finish this, then you can have a breast." Even worse (or at least funnier) is that I didn't even realize what I'd said at first--the kids just guffawed, I asked, "What?" in bewilderment, they guffawed even harder, then finally managed to tell me,

I don't think any of them will ever forget today's rehearsal.

621 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:33:26pm

re: #616 Occasional Reader

Wise choice. They're like martinis, you see.

Do you like yours with or without olives?

622 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:33:30pm

re: #611 Walter L. Newton

You'll find out. If I were you, I would start watching. It will make the transition easier later on.

I keep trying to find the scar where they implanted the chip in her neck.

623 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:33:42pm

re: #615 Walter L. Newton

No... THOSE BOOTS!

Boobs to boots thread...go figure.

/s

624 bellamags  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:33:53pm

re: #618 HoosierHoops

I can't figure it out also..Let's just write a bunch of nonsense and go in circles..
I just don't get it...

good evening hoops!

625 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:34:01pm

First, George Will is no saint. He dumped his first wife and Down Syndrome child for a trophy wife. He doesn't exemplify conservative values particularly well in his personal life. He's not an icon for me.

Second, saying that climate change happens is like saying the sun rises in the east in the morning. It's not exactly a revelation worthy of a Nobel Prize. The controversy is over whether, and to what extent, human beings cause this climate change.

A year ago, I listened to a debate between two climate scientists, one from SUNY (pro human-caused global warming) and the other from MIT (against). They were very civil to each other and agreed upon much of the data. Two points struck me: the most warming is happening at the poles, not in the temperate zones where we live. And carbon dioxide levels do not correlate with the changes. If CO2 levels were the cause of climate change, it should be much, much hotter than it is.

The MIT scientist made two basic points: (1) no computer model has been developed that can take into account the complexities of climate change on a planet where 80% of the surface is fluid; (2) even if the human race ceased to exist, and the human race is causing all of the climate change (unlikely), it would take 40 years for the temperature to drop 1 degree. It would take 100 years for the temperature to drop 1 degree if the human race doesn't commit mass suicide. And with those time frames, drastic action makes no sense.

626 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:34:05pm

re: #601 ConservatismNow!

I never cease to be amazed at the things I learn from History classes especially considering how much those ideas affect in the modern world.

I'll say. I've just started reading Milton Friedman's "Free to Choose".
He is going over the steps leading up to The Great Depression, and it could be a play book the Obama administration is following.

627 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:34:32pm

re: #612 debutaunt

I speak a little German. THE BOOT, right?

Boat - it was about diesel boats run by the Nazis. The bar scene was priceless.

628 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:34:37pm

re: #624 bellamags

good evening hoops!

Hi bella! {Bella}
so nice to see you...

629 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:34:39pm

re: #612 debutaunt

I speak a little German. THE BOOT, right?

Impressive.

Here's your Spanish lesson for the day; "Las Vegas" means "The Vegas".

630 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:34:53pm

re: #618 HoosierHoops

I can't figure it out also..Let's just write a bunch of nonsense and go in circles... I just don't get it...

Ok, back off. It's one of the most well written episodic TV shows ever.

631 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:34:58pm

re: #620 goddessoftheclassroom

I don't think any of them will ever forget today's rehearsal.

Ah, memories....

632 vxbush  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:35:03pm

re: #614 Perplexed

You and me both. Women and children would be drafted before they came for me (bad eyes, hearing shot, high BP, etc.)

Hey, some of us women aren't that great, either. Asthma, really bad eyes. Great taste buds, though. The chocolate always tastes great.

633 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:35:20pm

re: #623 Dustyvet

Head to toe as it were.

634 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:35:31pm

If there are more "climate change science" I'll be glad to stay out with my opinion, which is pretty established, anyway. Let only the peer-reviewed among us debate it. You see? There's little chance if everyone went for that there would be any substantial debate about the subject at all. Would that, then, be good? Should Al Gore be above the fray? Are we going to let computer models tell us how to live? Or that our existence is a problem for the earth?

Why did these people get to cut to the front of the freaking line? Where are the super-volcano people fighting to protect us from super-volcanos?

Yep, when you buy into climate change there's just no arguing with you at all. You're too smart to see the obvious.

635 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:35:43pm

BBIAB

636 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:35:50pm

re: #631 wrenchwench

Ah, memories....

Or mammaries...

637 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:35:55pm

Interesting (to me) ...

Pope meets with Nancy Pelosi last week. He started thinking about this...

"Certainly, the eugenistic and racial ideologies that in the past humiliated man and provoked immense suffering are not being proposed again, but a new mentality is creeping in that tends to justify a different consideration of life and personal dignity..."

I wonder why he started to think of eugenics.

638 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:36:07pm

re: #615 Walter L. Newton

No... THOSE BOOTS!

I keep forgetting dare-dee-das.

639 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:36:10pm

re: #618 HoosierHoops

I can't figure it out also..Let's just write a bunch of nonsense and go in circles..
I just don't get it...

Are you referring to "Lost" or the Stimulus bill?

640 TheConservator  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:36:16pm

[Link: home.comcast.net...]

Best analysis of the anthropogenic global warming hoax I have seen.

I would be interested in specific criticisms of its analysis.

641 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:36:19pm

re: #549 screaming_eagle

The F-22 has been cut. I don't have a link though.

Not dead yet...

Just a few weeks before a congressional deadline, Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz told reporters Tuesday that he soon will ask Defense Secretary Robert Gates for more F-22 Raptors.

Schwartz wouldn’t say how many of the stealthy fighters he will request, only that the total will be “less than the 381” the Air Force has said it needed since 2002.

Congress, which has approved only 187 Raptors, set a deadline of March 1 for President Barack Obama’s administration to decide whether to purchase more.

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Mike Mullen said in December that he and Schwartz had talked about buying 60 more F-22s, which would bring the total to 243.

Schwartz said he “wouldn’t dispute Admiral Mullen’s characterization ... but as I indicated, I have yet to discuss this with the secretary of defense, and I think it would be appropriate that I share my military advice with him first before doing so publicly.”

Loren Thompson of the Arlington, Va.-based Lexington Institute said he took Schwartz’s comments as confirmation the chief of staff will ask for 60.

F-22s, which cost about $150 million apiece, have been criticized for not contributing to the irregular wars the U.S. faces in Iraq and Afghanistan. But Air Force generals have said 187 F-22s are not enough, especially considering that only 100 could be available for combat at one time because of maintenance rates.

642 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:36:26pm

Wait... Devil's Advocate, are you still lurking. BBIAB

643 vxbush  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:36:35pm

re: #620 goddessoftheclassroom

Yep, almost. I said, "Let's just finish this, then you can have a breast." Even worse (or at least funnier) is that I didn't even realize what I'd said at first--the kids just guffawed, I asked, "What?" in bewilderment, they guffawed even harder, then finally managed to tell me,

I don't think any of them will ever forget today's rehearsal.

At least you didn't say it in Sunday School. That would have been just as bad.

644 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:36:45pm

re: #636 goddessoftheclassroom

Or mammaries...

Allo Goddess, Tiger is doing much, much better...:)

645 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:36:48pm

re: #636 goddessoftheclassroom

Or mammaries...

back to the boob thread!

646 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:37:06pm

re: #612 debutaunt

I speak a little German. THE BOOT, right?

Das Boot = The Boat.

The original movie was great, the director's cut even better at 3.5 hours, and the uncut German TV mini-series is near perfection at nearly 5 hours.

647 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:37:16pm

re: #629 Occasional Reader

Impressive.

Here's your Spanish lesson for the day; "Las Vegas" means "The Vegas".

Oh god. Thank you for reminding me.

Your text to link...

648 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:37:30pm

re: #639 n in wi

Are you referring to "Lost" or the Stimulus bill?

Nobody knows if the stimulus bill is well written because no one has read it.

649 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:37:52pm

re: #630 Walter L. Newton

Ok, back off. It's one of the most well written episodic TV shows ever.

Sorry Walter..I just don't get it...
/wouldn't be the first time i guess..
//Hi Walter!

650 USBeast  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:37:58pm

re: #588 Occasional Reader

I have authenticated text messages from 1972 that PROVE I'm the greatest genius of our time.

Okay, genius, tell me something. What direction is awk? I can go forward. I can go backward, but where do I have to head to go awkward?

651 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:38:00pm

re: #629 Occasional Reader

"Las Vegas" is correctly translated, "Lost Wages".

652 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:38:03pm

re: #641 NJDhockeyfan

Military cut backs are going to get a lot of our people killed.

653 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:38:11pm

re: #629 Occasional Reader

Impressive.

Here's your Spanish lesson for the day; "Las Vegas" means "The Vegas".

Ummm, and here I thought Las Vegas was Spanish for Lost Wages. [Annoyed Grunt!]

654 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:38:20pm

re: #627 Perplexed

Boat - it was about diesel boats run by the Nazis. The bar scene was priceless.

I rented the wrong movie again. Crap.

655 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:39:06pm

re: #647 ConservatismNow!

Apparently I forget to put a title in my links.

656 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:39:15pm

re: #652 Perplexed

Military cut backs are going to get a lot of our people killed.

And Obama couldn't give a damn. HoepChange!

657 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:39:17pm

re: #641 NJDhockeyfan

Good link. Thanks. I note:

F-22s, which cost about $150 million apiece, have been criticized for not contributing to the irregular wars the U.S. faces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Fucking idiots. Right, achieving instant air dominance has nothing at all to do with being able to successfully fight "irregular wars", does it? Dopes. You have to wonder if they don't secretly (or not so secretly) long to see lots of US military pilots locked up in another Hanoi Hilton.

658 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:39:25pm

re: #651 quickjustice

"Las Vegas" is correctly translated, "Lost Wages".

Arrived in Vegas in a $75,000.00 Mercedes. Left Vegas in a $750,000.00 Greyhound bus.

659 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:39:58pm

re: #629 Occasional Reader

Impressive.

Here's your Spanish lesson for the day; "Las Vegas" means "The Vegas".

I learned some Spanish as well. Lo ciento - I feel so low I can see into your toe. Lo ciento.

660 Dustyvet  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:40:14pm

re: #654 debutaunt

I rented the wrong movie again. Crap.

Wanna borrow "Howard The Duck?" Diving under desk...oh look flying frozen peas...ping, ping, ping...


/s

661 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:40:57pm

re: #650 USBeast

What direction is awk?

Well, duh, it's south. As in, New Zealand. Awkland, New Zealand.

Next question?

662 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:41:02pm

Well, have an appointment at 7. "See you on the other side, Ray."

663 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:41:10pm

And if you buy into human-caused global warming in its entirety, there's also Bjorn Lomborg's view of it: [Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

"Yet the really inconvenient truth, demonstrated by a group of economists who gathered in Denmark in 2004, is that combating climate change through the Kyoto Protocol has a social value of less than a dollar for each dollar spent. These economists, who included four Nobel laureates, took part in a project called the Copenhagen Consensus which compared the social value of solutions to different challenges facing humankind. The question that they strove to answer was: 'How could you spend $50bn to achieve the most good possible?'

The costs and benefits of different ways of combating HIV/Aids, starvation, global conflict, climate change, corruption and other challenges were studied in detail. With access to specially commissioned research, the team came up with a concrete, prioritised 'to do' list that outlined how policy-makers could achieve the most good possible.

The economists found that spending $27bn on an HIV/Aids prevention programme would be the best possible investment for humanity. It would save more than 28 million lives within six years and have massive flow-on effects, including increased productivity.

Providing micronutrient-rich dietary supplements to the malnourished was their second-highest priority. More than half the world suffers from deficiencies of iron, iodine, zinc or vitamin A, so cheap solutions such as nutrient fortification have an exceptionally high ratio of benefits to costs.

Third on the list was trade liberalisation. Although this would require politically difficult decisions, it would be remarkably cheap and would benefit the entire world, not least the developing world. A staggering GDP increase of $2,400bn annually would accrue equally to developed and developing countries with free trade.

The economists would then focus on the huge benefits possible from controlling malaria with chemically treated mosquito nets. Next on their list would be agricultural research and improving sanitation and water quality for a billion of the world's poorest people. The benefits of these ventures far outweigh the costs."

664 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:41:30pm

re: #662 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, have an appointment at 7. "See you on the other side, Ray."

"Been a pleasure working with you, Dr. Venkman."

665 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:41:49pm

re: #664 Wyatt Earp

"Been a pleasure working with you, Dr. Venkman."

I love that movie!

666 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:42:04pm

re: #646 FurryOldGuyJeans

Das Boot = The Boat.

The original movie was great, the director's cut even better at 3.5 hours, and the uncut German TV mini-series is near perfection at nearly 5 hours.

We saw the original on dvd. Excellent movie.

667 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:42:22pm

re: #641 NJDhockeyfan


F-22s, which cost about $150 million apiece, have been criticized for not contributing to the irregular wars the U.S. faces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

How do they think those choppers and Herky birds fly around unmolested?

Idiots.

668 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:42:31pm

re: #665 goddessoftheclassroom

I love that movie!

"Let's show his prehistoric bitch how we do things downtown!"

669 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:42:49pm

re: #641 NJDhockeyfan

I think that is part of the fight. We need to keep them, but their price tag has them on the chopping block.

670 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:42:58pm

re: #288 Basho

Excellent. I am also amused when they point to Jupiter warming and blame the sun, unaware we'd be fried in the process if that were accurate.
(And what about the planets/moons not warming?)

Yep. This stuff just falls to pieces when you start looking into it.

671 Occasional Reader  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:43:10pm

Time for me to perform my pre-flight ablutions (meaning, take a crap).

Happy Saturday night, to all to whom it is relevant (depending on geography, work, etc.).

672 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:43:18pm

re: #669 screaming_eagle

I think that is part of the fight. We need to keep them, but their price tag has them on the chopping block.

Can't we buy a bunch of them in bulk at Sam's Club?

///

673 USBeast  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:43:29pm

re: #661 Occasional Reader

Well, duh, it's south. As in, New Zealand. Awkland, New Zealand.

Next question?

Don't buy it. I've been in awkward situations that didn't go South. I just never knew how I got there.

674 bellamags  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:43:36pm

re: #649 HoosierHoops

Sorry Walter..I just don't get it...
/wouldn't be the first time i guess..
//Hi Walter!

The very first time Lost was on the air, my husband and I were sitting on our back porch watching it on a little 3 inch portable TV. I believe it was 04, right after the 3 hurricanes came through FL. We had no power, no cable, no A/C (and after a hurricane it is muggy and hot and still) for a week and the only thing we had to look forward to was Lost.

675 pink freud  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:43:45pm

re: #620 goddessoftheclassroom

Bookmarked for cookbook II. :-)

676 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:44:01pm

re: #668 Wyatt Earp

"Let's show his prehistoric bitch how we do things downtown!"

I worked at my college library the summer Ghost Busters came out. One of the librarians was a VERY uptight woman with NO sense of humor. My fellow workers and I called her "Eppa" after the EPA guy.

677 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:44:06pm

Up here in Canada, the latest war the left has against us is air conditioning and barbecues.

The loonies have taken a hate on against barbecues and air conditioning for some reason. The real reason is that the left hate people so much, they can't stand to see anyone doing anything and taking pleasure from it.

They have stamped out smoking and are now looking for another villain.

678 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:44:19pm

re: #666 debutaunt

We saw the original on dvd. Excellent movie.

The book is also outstanding. I felt claustrophobic reading it, and have spent years as a firefighter, claustrophobia is not a problem for me.

679 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:44:39pm

re: #676 goddessoftheclassroom

I worked at my college library the summer Ghost Busters came out. One of the librarians was a VERY uptight woman with NO sense of humor. My fellow workers and I called her "Eppa" after the EPA guy.

That's awesome! Such a great movie. The sequel? Not so much.

680 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:45:28pm

re: #663 quickjustice

That is truly the shame of global warming hype. It divert attention and funds away from things that could make an actual difference.
How many lives has liberalism cost?

681 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:45:31pm

re: #60 J.D.

In China, Clinton Focuses on Climate

JD -

Don'tcha GET IT - Talking "CLIMATE" to the Chinese is a back-door way of assuring them that their investment in US Treasuries is safe? They get "Credits/Indulgences" - and WE PAY!

-S-

682 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:45:39pm

re: #672 Wyatt Earp

Can't we buy a bunch of them in bulk at Sam's Club?

///

Please don't give our president any ideas

683 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:46:00pm

re: #682 screaming_eagle

Please don't give our president any ideas

Heh, I can almost hear him dialing now.

684 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:46:14pm

re: #486 Iron Fist


At some point, you have to pick a side to believe. If we can't know the science, then all we have to judge is the character of those who are presenting the science in language we can understand. When taken as a whole, I find the words an actions of those who don't believe that we have to destroy the American economy in order to save the world more credible.

And I vote accordingly.

There are plenty of "spkespeople" besides Al Gore on one side and plenty of others on the other. Sounds a bit like a typical partisan slug match to me.

All these people do is make publicity, they don't do the science.

One does not have to "pick a side" in the sense that you seem to suggest, to evaluate data. The truth is that the issue of what to do about it and how is different from the issue of whether or not the phenomenon exists.

I'm with you regarding things like Kyoto, but regarding interpretation of the science we disagree, at least the extent that one should never close a door on it.

685 vxbush  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:46:16pm

re: #679 Wyatt Earp

That's awesome! Such a great movie. The sequel? Not so much.

Actually, we got the two movies for the son to watch. He likes them both. I just can't believe they actually thought they had a good plot for the second movie.

686 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:48:34pm

re: #685 vxbush

Actually, we got the two movies for the son to watch. He likes them both. I just can't believe they actually thought they had a good plot for the second movie.

Me neither. And usually the second film of a trilogy is the best one. At least, that has always been my contention. The exception? Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Blecch!

687 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:49:58pm

re: #618 HoosierHoops

I can't figure it out also..Let's just write a bunch of nonsense and go in circles..
I just don't get it...

I tried , but I just can't follow Lost. Some guy shows up & tells them that they all have to go back to the island. He doesn't tell them why, but everbody agrees to go back.

688 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:51:04pm

re: #686 Wyatt Earp

Still a good movie, but when you compare it to the other three, it's definitely the worst. I usually hate the second movie in trilogies because I know a third one is coming out.

689 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:52:03pm

When Repubicans debate this it should always be in terms of the urgency, and terms of the solution proposed. The Draconian measures of Kyoto guarantee death and misery as well as major wealth transport to no good end.

Should we be trying to control human behaviour from a technocratic circle of philosopher kings, or should we be creating a plethora of clean cheap energy?

(here's a hint: failures of attempts to redirect and control human behaviour are much more demonstrable than the urgency of the climate challenge.)

690 pink freud  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:52:27pm

Reine de tout!

Who did you have to bribe to get Mardi Gras to fall on your birthday!?!

691 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:52:49pm

re: #641 NJDhockeyfan

NJDhockeyfan -

F-22's can knock out ANY OTHER Fighter Aircraft currently flying. Sufficient reason to have "Enough" of them. AND, as the F-15 "Knight" was supplemented by the F-16 "Squire" - Build PLENTY of F-35's as well. Air Superiority for the US is not a "choice" - It Is a Necessity for LOTS of reasons.

-S-

692 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:52:58pm

re: #688 ConservatismNow!

You didn't like Back to the Future IV ? The stupid guy really doesn't like manure - so funny!

693 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:52:58pm

re: #688 ConservatismNow!

Still a good movie, but when you compare it to the other three, it's definitely the worst. I usually hate the second movie in trilogies because I know a third one is coming out.

Almost every action film that has little kids in it ends up sucking. Again, just my opinion.

694 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:53:37pm

Ok I'm back. Did Devil's Advocate apologize to me yet?

695 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:54:19pm

re: #687 opnion

I tried , but I just can't follow Lost. Some guy shows up & tells them that they all have to go back to the island. He doesn't tell them why, but ever body agrees to go back.

I believe the "some guy" was the professor, and everyone needed to go back because Mary-Ann had just taken the coconut cream pie out of the oven.

696 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:55:05pm

re: #687 opnion

I tried , but I just can't follow Lost. Some guy shows up & tells them that they all have to go back to the island. He doesn't tell them why, but everbody agrees to go back.

Of course he told them why. Because the survivors left on the Island would die if they didn't return.

Any other questions?

697 garycooper  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:55:29pm

re: #274 Basho

Clearly you are a True Believer, and won't be swayed by the facts. Congrats, you're right in tune with the MSM, Hollywood, and Al Gore.

698 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:56:13pm

re: #695 n in wi

I believe the "some guy" was the professor, and everyone needed to go back because Mary-Ann had just taken the coconut cream pie out of the oven.

Alright, now I get it! Thanks.

699 Wishing  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:56:40pm

re: #640 TheConservator

[Link: home.comcast.net...]

Best analysis of the anthropogenic global warming hoax I have seen.

I would be interested in specific criticisms of its analysis.

Thank you for the link. Excellent article, easy to understand.

700 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:56:45pm

re: #694 Walter L. Newton

Ok I'm back. Did Devil's Advocate apologize to me yet?


No, he's probably writing an apology right now.

701 Scion9  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:56:55pm

re: #663 quickjustice


The economists found that spending $27bn on an HIV/Aids prevention programme would be the best possible investment for humanity. It would save more than 28 million lives within six years

Hmm...

But our pressing on those issues [human rights] can’t interfere on the...the global climate change crisis...

-Hillary Clinton

702 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:57:27pm

re: #692 debutaunt

Nah. Didn't really like the second one. I liked the third one though.

703 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:58:37pm

re: #696 Walter L. Newton

Of course he told them why. Because the survivors left on the Island would die if they didn't return.

Any other questions?


See, I missed the episode where they expalained that. Trying to make sense of it after is not possible.
Yes Walter , I do have another question. Why are they going to die?

704 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:59:35pm

re: #696 Walter L. Newton

Of course he told them why. Because the survivors left on the Island would die if they didn't return.

Any other questions?

I ain't going back unless Mary-Ann or Ginger is on the Island..period..

705 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:59:47pm

re: #695 n in wi

I believe the "some guy" was the professor, and everyone needed to go back because Mary-Ann had just taken the coconut cream pie out of the oven.

lol,
that is as good an answer as any.
my husband loves that show,
i have no idea why. i don't watch it at all.
tho i know one of the actors on lost.
he has no idea what is going on either.

706 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:59:51pm

re: #694 Walter L. Newton

Ok I'm back. Did Devil's Advocate apologize to me yet?

He seemed oddly interested in your address.

707 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:00:22pm

re: #699 Wishing

Do you remember all those Y2K "experts"? I love to throw the Y2K hoax in the faces of the warmist ass-clowns.

708 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:00:25pm

re: #703 opnion

See, I missed the episode where they expalained that. Trying to make sense of it after is not possible.
Yes Walter , I do have another question. Why are they going to die?

Global Warming

709 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:01:03pm

re: #698 opnion

Alright, now I get it! Thanks.

I will be the first to admit, if you left the programing anytime in the last 5 years, you could have trouble following.

If you don't understand that "The Island" itself is treated like an actual character (it seems to be able to effect/influence events) then you could have trouble following the show.

And if you don't like time travel plot lines, then it becomes even more difficult to watch.

It's about science versus faith, destiny versus randomness, belief versus knowledge. All wrapped around a science fiction story.

710 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:01:07pm

re: #704 HoosierHoops

I ain't going back unless Mary-Ann or Ginger is on the Island..period..

How did Ginger keep getting her gown dry cleaned?

711 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:01:50pm

re: #710 opnion

How did Ginger keep getting her gown dry cleaned?

I think it was wash and wear.

712 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:02:04pm

re: #706 debutaunt

He seemed oddly interested in your address.

lol,
now i get the 'taunt part.

713 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:02:31pm

re: #663 quickjustice

And if you buy into human-caused global warming in its entirety, there's also Bjorn Lomborg's view of it: [Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

"Yet the really inconvenient truth, demonstrated by a group of economists who gathered in Denmark in 2004, is that combating climate change through the Kyoto Protocol has a social value of less than a dollar for each dollar spent. These economists, who included four Nobel laureates, took part in a project called the Copenhagen Consensus which compared the social value of solutions to different challenges facing humankind. The question that they strove to answer was: 'How could you spend $50bn to achieve the most good possible?'

I venture that there is more than one definition of "good".

I haven't read the link, but I wonder if it even attempts to define the word, as opposed to assume that everyone agrees and that the time frame considered is universally known.

714 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:02:48pm

Well since it's a boob thread ( aren't they all?)

bourbon street live cam

715 LieSeeker  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:02:51pm
The Research Center put a statement on their site explaining that Will was wrong. On February 15, the day Will wrote his column, there was substantially less ice than on February 15, 1979: the area of Texas, California, and Oklahoma combined.

The Research Center is wrong. Will was referring to the January article (not February 15) in Daily Tech, and the Research center admits that it was correct:


One important detail about the article in the Daily Tech is that the author is comparing the GLOBAL sea ice area from December 31, 2008 to same variable for December 31, 1979. In the context of climate change, GLOBAL sea ice area may not be the most relevant indicator.

Fabius Maximus looked at this.

716 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:03:07pm

re: #709 Walter L. Newton

I will be the first to admit, if you left the programing anytime in the last 5 years, you could have trouble following.

If you don't understand that "The Island" itself is treated like an actual character (it seems to be able to effect/influence events) then you could have trouble following the show.

And if you don't like time travel plot lines, then it becomes even more difficult to watch.

It's about science versus faith, destiny versus randomness, belief versus knowledge. All wrapped around a science fiction story.


I know that I am belaboring this, but I used to follow Lost.
So the Island is going to kill the survivors still there?

717 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:03:24pm

re: #708 screaming_eagle

Global Warming

no, climate change.

718 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:03:25pm

Remember our old friends the Sweden Democrats?
Sverigedemokrat suspicion of robbery

An undercover reporter had infiltrated to the group, they found her out tried to detain her and stole her equipment. Four SD members were arrested for armed robbery.
I'm sure they'll make a nice addition to the counterJihad movement.

719 DeathtotheSwiss  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:03:34pm

After Discover magazine changed owners I stopped reading it. The same idiot who owned Rolling Stone was the guy who bought it and the magazine has suffered consequently.

720 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:04:02pm

re: #709 Walter L. Newton

It has the flavor of the Tom Hanks Fedex movie, except it has a lot more time travel stuff and everything.

721 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:04:12pm

re: #718 Killgore Trout

SD defense can be found at GoV.

722 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:04:25pm

re: #714 Shug

Well since it's a boob thread ( aren't they all?)

bourbon street live cam

My pants grow tight.

723 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:04:26pm

re: #711 Wyatt Earp

I think it was wash and wear.

Well that explains it & Lovie & Thurston got the biggest hut, just because.

724 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:04:34pm

re: #714 Shug

Well since it's a boob thread ( aren't they all?)

bourbon street live cam

Will the Gaza rooster be making an appearance?

725 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:04:50pm

re: #721 Killgore Trout

SD defense can be found at GoV.

Why is that not surprising?

726 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:05:13pm

re: #703 opnion

See, I missed the episode where they expalained that. Trying to make sense of it after is not possible.
Yes Walter , I do have another question. Why are they going to die?

Because there has been an "imbalance" on the Island. Those who left were not destined to leave, and the Island is has lost it's "constants," it's balance, and is "skipping" back and forth into different timelines.

It's evident that the Island is older than most mankind, that the Island has something to do with the quantum state of out planet, and the Island itself can and does effect the future.

It's a little hard to summarize 5 years (and one to go) of plot points, but that covers some of the big items.

727 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:05:41pm

re: #723 opnion

Well that explains it & Lovie & Thurston got the biggest hut, just because.

Friggin' rich Republicans!

//

728 screaming_eagle  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:05:49pm

re: #717 nyc redneck

Nope, it's global warming. We got 4 inches of it last night. They came out with global warming ,they're gonna stay with it.

729 wiffersnapper  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:06:23pm

gLOLbal warming

730 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:06:49pm

re: #710 opnion

How did Ginger keep getting her gown dry cleaned?

I would be sans clothes if I lived on Gilligans Island and I would heavily enourage both Ginger and Maryanne to join me.

731 Cheechako  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:07:10pm

re: #555 debutaunt

The extra $7.70 per week next year - what will it amount to if adjusted for inflation?


Keep in mind this in NOT a tax cut. It's just an adjustment to the with-holding tables to determine just how much is to be "with-held" from your paycheck to pay your 2009 taxes!

732 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:07:37pm

re: #726 Walter L. Newton

Because there has been an "imbalance" on the Island. Those who left were not destined to leave, and the Island is has lost it's "constants," it's balance, and is "skipping" back and forth into different timelines.

It's evident that the Island is older than most mankind, that the Island has something to do with the quantum state of out planet, and the Island itself can and does effect the future.

It's a little hard to summarize 5 years (and one to go) of plot points, but that covers some of the big items.


That is a damn good summary. Now I can actually pick it up, thank's.

733 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:08:05pm

re: #723 opnion

Well that explains it & Lovie & Thurston got the biggest hut, just because.

They all seemed to have a lot of stuff for a 3 hr. tour,a 3 hr .tour.
BTW what was Gilligan's first name?
And if you can answer that, what was Quincy's first name?

734 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:08:09pm

re: #714 Shug

Well since it's a boob thread ( aren't they all?)

bourbon street live cam


How appropriate. It is called the "flash" viewer.

735 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:08:12pm

re: #716 opnion

I know that I am belaboring this, but I used to follow Lost. So the Island is going to kill the survivors still there?

If the "balance" is not corrected, it's appears that earth will not exist anymore. Of course, the WHOLE mystery has not been explained yet, but this is the direction that the "reveals" have been going in over this season.

736 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:08:20pm

re: #731 Cheechako

Keep in mind this in NOT a tax cut. It's just an adjustment to the with-holding tables to determine just how much is to be "with-held" from your paycheck to pay your 2009 taxes!

Absolutely.

737 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:08:37pm

re: #730 Truck Monkey

I would be sans clothes if I lived on Gilligans Island and I would heavily enourage both Ginger and Maryanne to join me.


Ah , so you wold cut out Little Buddy?

738 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:08:59pm

re: #710 opnion

How did Ginger keep getting her gown dry cleaned?

You know what is funny about the Mary-Ann vs. Ginger argument?
95% of all guys say they prefer Mary-Ann..
See how they lie?.. Secretly every guy wants to trash the movie star first then move onto the girl next store.. If they tell you any differently they are liars.

739 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:09:27pm

re: #727 Wyatt Earp

Friggin' rich Republicans!

//

Bush's rich oil buddies?

740 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:09:40pm

re: #733 n in wi

They all seemed to have a lot of stuff for a 3 hr. tour,a 3 hr .tour.
BTW what was Gilligan's first name?
And if you can answer that, what was Quincy's first name?

I don't recall either one.

741 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:10:47pm

re: #738 HoosierHoops

You know what is funny about the Mary-Ann vs. Ginger argument?
95% of all guys say they prefer Mary-Ann..
See how they lie?.. Secretly every guy wants to trash the movie star first then move onto the girl next store.. If they tell you any differently they are liars.

Ain't that the truth. Ginger was smokin hot!

742 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:11:04pm

re: #725 Sharmuta

If you want a real treat head over to Brussels Journal and read From Meccania to Atlantis Part 8 ....

It’s not hostile Blacks, or Third World immigrants or militant Islam or greedy bankers that can be blamed for the decline of the West. It’s the decline of the West that can be blamed for hostile Blacks, Third World immigrants, militant Islam and greedy bankers.

The West’s’ original population – what we call for brevity’s sake “Whites” -- has given away the keys to its own home, and delights in being plundered. The ruling Body Snatchers (nonWhite immigrants - ed) have initiated and executed the plunder, but it’s the demos of democracy that has chosen those Body Snatchers and keeps them at the trough.

It's all about the coming race wars.

743 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:11:26pm

re: #741 opnion

Ain't that the truth. Ginger was smokin hot!

I would like to marry Mary Anne, but foul Ginger in the worst way.

744 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:11:52pm

re: #733 n in wi

They all seemed to have a lot of stuff for a 3 hr. tour,a 3 hr .tour.
BTW what was Gilligan's first name?
And if you can answer that, what was Quincy's first name?

I know Gilligans name was Willy. Who is Quincy?

745 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:12:31pm

re: #737 opnion

Ah , so you wold cut out Little Buddy?

He doesn't do much for me.
;)

746 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:12:46pm

re: #735 Walter L. Newton

If the "balance" is not corrected, it's appears that earth will not exist anymore. Of course, the WHOLE mystery has not been explained yet, but this is the direction that the "reveals" have been going in over this season.

Hot damn! This is now very serious. If the Earth no longer exists, A-Rod doing steroids will lose all relevance.

747 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:13:05pm

re: #709 Walter L. Newton

If that's the case I recommend you pick up this book, seems like they might be partially inspired by some of the shorts stories in it.

748 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:13:13pm

Jonus Grumby was the skipper
Roy Hinkley was The Professor
Mary Ann's last name was Summers
and gilligans first name was Willy

749 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:14:11pm

re: #738 HoosierHoops

You know what is funny about the Mary-Ann vs. Ginger argument?
95% of all guys say they prefer Mary-Ann..
See how they lie?.. Secretly every guy wants to trash the movie star first then move onto the girl next store.. If they tell you any differently they are liars.


4 guys,3 gals don't tell me Lovey Howell wouldn't look good to the odd man out after Ginger and Mary-Ann were unavailable. It was an Island.

750 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:15:06pm

re: #743 Wyatt Earp

I would like to marry Mary Anne, but foul Ginger in the worst way.

Everybody felt that way. Also young boys all had a thing for Annette Funicello. You got to watch grow up in a manner of speaking on the Mickey Mouse Club.

751 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:15:27pm

re: #744 Truck Monkey

I know Gilligans name was Willy. Who is Quincy?

Dr. Quincy. The show was Quincy M.E.
Never did say his first name.

752 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:15:31pm

re: #629 Occasional Reader

Impressive.

Here's your Spanish lesson for the day; "Las Vegas" means "The Vegas".

"OR" -

For all you Jersey Boys and Girls - en espanol - Las Vegas = The Meadowlands.

-S-

753 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:15:49pm

re: #749 n in wi

4 guys,3 gals don't tell me Lovey Howell wouldn't look good to the odd man out after Ginger and Mary-Ann were unavailable. It was an Island.

I would get to work on "the survival of the species" aspect of Island life as soon as possible after being shipwrecked.

754 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:16:33pm

re: #745 Truck Monkey

He doesn't do much for me.
;)

No, I meant that you wouldn't share the ladies with Gilligan.

755 Truck Monkey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:17:03pm

re: #754 opnion

No, I meant that you wouldn't share the ladies with Gilligan.

No. Mine mine mine!
/

756 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:17:29pm

re: #747 Thanos

If that's the case I recommend you pick up this book, seems like they might be partially inspired by some of the shorts stories in it.

LOST follows the suggestion of Umberto Eco to use "intertexual" reference and idea from all literature. Powers Books has a reading list of books that pertain to all the intertexual relationships so far.

That's why I was reading Foucault's Pendulum in the last few weeks. It in itself has been used as part of the "world" of the LOST story. It appears that the Island is similar to the "navel of the earth" as mentioned in Pendulum, and the actual way to "locate" the Island (is moves in time/space) is by the use of a large Fouucalt's pendulum, as we have seen this season.

Over 100 books have been "referenced" in the show so far.

757 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:17:34pm

re: #750 opnion

Everybody felt that way. Also young boys all had a thing for Annette Funicello. You got to watch grow up in a manner of speaking on the Mickey Mouse Club.

Mickey's ears did get farther apart over a couple seasons.

758 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:17:51pm

re: #755 Truck Monkey

No. Mine mine mine!
/

Selfish, selfish.

759 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:18:35pm

re: #742 Killgore Trout

Lovely people pamela and robert have on their side.

760 vxbush  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:18:51pm

re: #756 Walter L. Newton

LOST follows the suggestion of Umberto Eco to use "intertexual" reference and idea from all literature. Powers Books has a reading list of books that pertain to all the intertexual relationships so far.

That's why I was reading Foucault's Pendulum in the last few weeks. It in itself has been used as part of the "world" of the LOST story. It appears that the Island is similar to the "navel of the earth" as mentioned in Pendulum, and the actual way to "locate" the Island (is moves in time/space) is by the use of a large Fouucalt's pendulum, as we have seen this season.

Over 100 books have been "referenced" in the show so far.

Is that what is going on in Pendulum? I'm reading it after someone mentioned it here (maybe you), and I have to admit it's rather driving me batty. I swear it looks like he's "book" dropping, a la name dropping. "See all the stuff I know," it screams to me. Gah.

761 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:20:00pm

re: #747 Thanos

My comments try to explain why I watch this show. It is the only hour of TV i ever watch. IMHO, it is far above the writing level of anything I have ever seen in a weekly TV show.

It is certainly not ordinary.

762 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:20:13pm

re: #760 vxbush

Is that what is going on in Pendulum? I'm reading it after someone mentioned it here (maybe you), and I have to admit it's rather driving me batty. I swear it looks like he's "book" dropping, a la name dropping. "See all the stuff I know," it screams to me. Gah.

Have you ever read Jasper Fforde's Thursday Next novels? The first one is The Eyre Affair. They;re among my favorites.

763 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:21:02pm

There was an episode where the Skipper , The Professor & Gilligan sailed to a neighboring Island. They encounterd Female Gorillas & you know, one thein led to another. They made fun of Gilligan all the way back , because he had the ugly one.

764 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:21:30pm

re: #755 Truck Monkey

No. Mine mine mine!
/

I think the Professor could have had his pick. With Skipper and Gilligan bunking together, and all that little buddy talk,the two of them may not have been interested in the gals.

/not that theirs anything wrong with that.

765 vxbush  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:21:55pm

re: #762 goddessoftheclassroom

Have you ever read Jasper Fforde's Thursday Next novels? The first one is The Eyre Affair. They;re among my favorites.

No, I'm afraid my reading has been rather limited, to be honest. I have no idea what to read, and I rather hate the idea of wasting time on a book. I hate the idea of putting a book down once I start it, thinking I should give it the benefit of the doubt. Consequently, given my limited time I greatly limit what books I read. But I'm willing to take suggestions. I just keep forgetting to make a list of what to read!

766 lostlakehiker  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:21:56pm

re: #467 Thanos

The columnists on the right do a disservice to their cause when they misrepresent and get things wrong. It allows the alarmists to easily dismiss valid questions as more denialist talking points.

AGW is a reality, the greenhouse effect does exist. The next question isn't "should we do something about it" but rather how much should we do about it? How soon must we act?

The alarmist camp has the sky falling tomorrow, I'm in a camp that thinks the jury is still out and that we have a much longer time line to deal with it in. The more pressing problem is energy abundance vs. population if you must have alarm - we know pretty certainly that the horizon for 9 billion humans on earth is a scant forty years away.


Doing something about AGW requires doing something about energy. Even if CO2 weren't a problem, a shortage of C for making CO2 would become a problem before too terribly long. Wind, solar, nuclear, geothermal, biomass, and to an extent, efficiency, are all potential substitutes for fossil fuels.

Now, which do we pursue, and at what cost? Do too little, and we run aground sooner, with climate shift costs that hurt, or later, with energy shortages that hurt. Do too much of the wrong thing too soon, and we exhaust our resources before the technology to do what would have worked matures.

767 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:22:15pm

re: #757 n in wi

Mickey's ears did get farther apart over a couple seasons.

Yeah & Annette's ears grew & got voluptous.

768 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:22:38pm

re: #760 vxbush

There is no "Island" in Pendulum. But yes, Eco is a professor of sign and symbols and how they communicate across the ages. So, he himself pulls all sorts of references into Pendulum to show the multi-layered aspect of these Templar tales. As he say, like peeling an onion.

769 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:23:00pm

re: #180 lostlakehiker

The Pacific is big, but it isn't a smokestack. It DOES NOT produce CO2. (It absorbs some, but not enough to offset our emissions.) We can, and we do, change global CO2 levels.

That is a very strange statement. The ocean stores CO2 in a manner similar to coal, oil, wood, broccoli or limestone. You can get the CO2 out of coal or oil by burning it. You can get it out of the wood by burning it or letting it rot. The broccoli by burning it, letting it rot or eating it. The limestone by applying acid to it. And the ocean by increasing the temperature.

If the ocean doesn't produce CO2, then nothing does. All of these things just store it in one form or another until something releases it.

The ocean is capable of dissolving much more CO2 than what is produced by man. When the ocean warms it out-gasses so much CO2 that anthropogenic sources are almost insignificant.

Also, Carbon Dioxide is not a toxin or a pollutant in the amounts present in our atmosphere. In fact it is a basic building block of life. A little more CO2 results in more vegetation, which is a good thing-- if you like eating.

770 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:25:23pm

re: #767 opnion

Yeah & Annette's ears grew & got voluptous.

My husband laughed out loud at that!

771 lostlakehiker  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:25:54pm

re: #486 Iron Fist

The problem is one of belief, so you could call that faith. We have two sides that, I will agree with you, few of us have the background and education to go head to head with many of these people. On the other hand, the most prominant spokesfreak for the AGW side is Al Gore. I've met the man. I never was able to understand where the image of him as some kind of intellectual came from. I have more education, and am probably better read on most any subject that we could pick.

I know the man is a liar. A serial liar with virtually no credibility on much of any issue. I've seen him lie on so much, so often, that I wonder why anyone has faith in anything he says. It is clear enough from his actions that he doesn't really believe that we are about to have a global apocalypse because of AGW, but that is what he preaches.

OTOH, I've never been a big fan of Will. He's always struck me as something of a snob. I doubt that he'd be comfortable in any crowd that I would be comfortable in. So I don't have much of a dog in the fight where he is concerned. If he lied in such an obvious, verifiable way, then he's a fool, but that has no real effect on what I believe on the global climate change issue.

I do know that when anyone tries to limit debate on an issue the way the global warmists have tried to limit the debate on climate change, that there is probably something being hidden.

At some point, you have to pick a side to believe. If we can't know the science, then all we have to judge is the character of those who are presenting the science in language we can understand. When taken as a whole, I find the words an actions of those who don't believe that we have to destroy the American economy in order to save the world more credible.

And I vote accordingly.

I think you CAN know the science. Enough, anyhow. It's not impossibly difficult for somebody of your abilities to read up on the subject and form your own judgment of the balance of the evidence.

772 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:27:02pm

re: #769 NukeAtomrod

NukeAtomrod -

IOW - Al Gore to Humanity - DON'T BREATHE!

-S-

773 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:27:02pm

re: #770 debutaunt

My husband laughed out loud at that!

Good!

774 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:27:04pm

re: #769 NukeAtomrod

Mt. Pinatubo in the Philippines spews more CO2 in a day than humankind produces in a year.

And yes, Carbon Dioxide is just plant food. Without it, there would be no life on earth.
For the loonies to say CO2 is a pollutant is such a ridiculously laughable statement, I find it hard to believe anything they say.

775 vxbush  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:27:33pm

re: #768 Walter L. Newton

There is no "Island" in Pendulum. But yes, Eco is a professor of sign and symbols and how they communicate across the ages. So, he himself pulls all sorts of references into Pendulum to show the multi-layered aspect of these Templar tales. As he say, like peeling an onion.

Well, I'm not that far, so don't tell me anything. But I have to admit it's tough slogging through this thing.

776 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:27:42pm

re: #766 lostlakehiker

Doing something about AGW requires doing something about energy. Even if CO2 weren't a problem, a shortage of C for making CO2 would become a problem before too terribly long. Wind, solar, nuclear, geothermal, biomass, and to an extent, efficiency, are all potential substitutes for fossil fuels.

Now, which do we pursue, and at what cost? Do too little, and we run aground sooner, with climate shift costs that hurt, or later, with energy shortages that hurt. Do too much of the wrong thing too soon, and we exhaust our resources before the technology to do what would have worked matures.

I approach it from an "all energy is good energy" viewpoint right now. The sooner sub saharan Africa, South America, and the Subcontinent become middle class, the sooner we put out billions of daily cookfires. So it can be logically argued that putting up coal power plants in Africa is a good thing compared to the alternative. Longer term we need to get carcinogenic benzene ring compounds out of the air, but we have to start somewhere. The alarmists want the third world to leapfrog to an expensive alternative that doesn't really work on mass scale right now without offline coal, oil, and gas capacity. Build that capacity now, as the tech improves phase it in.

777 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:27:55pm

Later Lizards.

778 n in wi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:27:59pm

re: #767 opnion

Yeah & Annette's ears grew & got voluptous.

Maybe you missed it. Annette had a T-Shirt with Mickey's head on it. Think of where his ears would be.

779 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:28:03pm

re: #774 WhiteRasta

Mt. Pinatubo in the Philippines spews more CO2 in a day than humankind produces in a year.

And yes, Carbon Dioxide is just plant food. Without it, there would be no life on earth.
For the loonies to say CO2 is a pollutant is such a ridiculously laughable statement, I find it hard to believe anything they say.

Then how do you explain pigeons?

780 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:28:14pm

Hilarious news:

Obama wants to halve budget deficit.

781 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:28:47pm

re: #775 vxbush

Well, I'm not that far, so don't tell me anything. But I have to admit it's tough slogging through this thing.

The first 550 pages are the hardest, after that it's all adventure LOL.

782 KingKenrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:28:50pm

re: #689 Thanos

When Repubicans debate this it should always be in terms of the urgency, and terms of the solution proposed. The Draconian measures of Kyoto guarantee death and misery as well as major wealth transport to no good end.

Should we be trying to control human behaviour from a technocratic circle of philosopher kings, or should we be creating a plethora of clean cheap energy?

(here's a hint: failures of attempts to redirect and control human behaviour are much more demonstrable than the urgency of the climate challenge.)

I think if you concede the "AGW is happening and we have to do something about it" question, you've already conceded the debate for action to the other side - because the issue is so easy for power-grabbing politicians to demagogue. I don't know if you can defeat Al Gore-type scaremongering by having a reasonable debate. You're going to get bullshit-dozed.

At that point government has to start controlling things because people won't control themselves unless markets dictate they must through prices.

783 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:29:11pm

re: #779 Walter L. Newton

Que? Pigeons?

784 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:29:55pm

re: #774 WhiteRasta

For the loonies to say CO2 is a pollutant is such a ridiculously laughable statement, I find it hard to believe anything they say.

When they do say something, they are adding CO2 to the atmosphere. I enjoy reminding them of that.

785 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:30:00pm

re: #780 debutaunt

Hilarious news:

Obama wants to halve budget deficit.

You sure that wasn't "Obama wants to haz budget deficit"?

786 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:30:28pm

re: #783 WhiteRasta

Que? Pigeons?

You know... [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

787 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:32:03pm

re: #786 Walter L. Newton

Walter, with all due respect, I have no idea what you are talking about...

788 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:32:18pm

re: #785 wrenchwench

You sure that wasn't "Obama wants to haz budget deficit"?

Obama haz stimulating wayz to hav deafcit.

789 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:32:38pm

re: #427 Scion9

What a relief. 90% tax rates means he believes in private property at least to some degree. That is way more right wing than most of the Democrats I know.

790 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:33:18pm

re: #788 debutaunt

Obama haz stimulating wayz to hav deafcit.

I'm sorry debutant. You had this coming. l2english plz.

791 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:33:23pm

re: #442 jcm

Well, it may be time.
HT (Walter)

Great!

792 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:33:38pm

re: #782 KingKenrod

Well obviously you and I disagree, you have to start any argument from the basis of fact and reality, if you don't you will lose over time, no matter what populist moments you create with your displacement activity.


Do you think we should do something about coal plants sometime this century?

793 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:33:53pm

re: #779 Walter L. Newton

Then how do you explain pigeons?

I don't. They should explain themselves if they want to be taken seriously.

794 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:34:30pm

re: #793 NukeAtomrod

Btw: love that nucular futbol.

795 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:35:56pm

re: #793 NukeAtomrod

I don't. They should explain themselves if they want to be taken seriously.

You understood. Good.

Out of here for a while.

796 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:36:12pm

re: #794 Thanos

Btw: love that nucular futbol.

Thanks! I made it myself.

797 lostlakehiker  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:37:15pm

re: #769 NukeAtomrod

That is a very strange statement. The ocean stores CO2 in a manner similar to coal, oil, wood, broccoli or limestone. You can get the CO2 out of coal or oil by burning it. You can get it out of the wood by burning it or letting it rot. The broccoli by burning it, letting it rot or eating it. The limestone by applying acid to it. And the ocean by increasing the temperature.

If the ocean doesn't produce CO2, then nothing does. All of these things just store it in one form or another until something releases it.

The ocean is capable of dissolving much more CO2 than what is produced by man. When the ocean warms it out-gasses so much CO2 that anthropogenic sources are almost insignificant.

Also, Carbon Dioxide is not a toxin or a pollutant in the amounts present in our atmosphere. In fact it is a basic building block of life. A little more CO2 results in more vegetation, which is a good thing-- if you like eating.

The ocean is not, at present, a net emitter of carbon dioxide. It's most definitely not a place where unoxidized carbon is combined with O2 to produce CO2. There is an exchange of CO2 between the atmosphere and the ocean. Warming the ocean would push it toward emitting more into the atmosphere, or taking up less. But as CO2 levels in the atmosphere rise, that pushes it toward net uptake. So far, these forces have balanced out in a way that sees CO2 content of the ocean increasing. So it's helping us. But the ocean is not going to take up all the extra CO2 we put into the atmosphere, not in time to prevent a rise to levels people worry about.

Agreed that CO2 is not a toxin or a pollutant at the levels present. It is a climate modifier, which is another thing. No one is proposing reducing world CO2 levels to amounts below where they were a century ago. No one, in fact, who is serious about the science, is proposing a near term reduction at all. That would be economically and socially impossible.

The proposals are all about limiting the future rise to this or that level, rather than proceeding with business as usual and seeing levels rise to double what they are now.

The very existence of grass is evolutionary evidence that world CO2 levels are below their optimal value for growth of many kinds of plants. Grasses have a different biochemistry for taking up carbon for CO2 and they can get along with less. This whole category of life forms arose in response to a CO2 poverty in the atmosphere compared to how it was before the advent of grass.

But what is optimal for jungle trees may not be optimal for our species. In our hundred thousand or so span on earth, CO2 levels never went as high as we are now facing. World temperatures never went high enough that Antarctica or Greenland were forested. Our food crops are adapted to today's climate, and rice production suffers when it rises above 88.

798 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:37:16pm

re: #780 debutaunt

Hilarious news:

Obama wants to halve budget deficit.

yes, and he wants to do it on the backs of the people already paying most of the tax bill

799 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:41:26pm

re: #790 ConservatismNow!

I'm sorry debutant. You had this coming. l2english plz.

Hang on. I'll try to find a stimulus LOLcat...

800 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:41:45pm

Hans Rosling with some interesting comparisons over time:

[Link: noblesseoblige.org...]

801 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:44:02pm

re: #475 FurryOldGuyJeans

People voted the Republican Majority out in 2006 because they could not and would not pare down spending, and yet spending has increased multi-fold since. Voters sure display split personality disorder when they vote for less spending and yet keep voting for the big spending party.

(Brother sent me this email, he usually does alright to check for accuracy, but I have not verified it all.)
Jan, 21st 2009

Difference of 8 years

> > > Yesterday:
Outgoing President George W. Bush quietly boards his helicopter and leaves for Texas , commenting only: "Today is not about me. Today is a historical day for our nation and people."

> > > Eight years ago yesterday:
Outgoing President Bill Clinton schedules two separate radio addresses to the nation, and organizes a public farewell speech/ rally in downtown Washington D.C. scheduled to directly conflict with incoming President Bush's inauguration ceremony.

> > > Yesterday:
President Bush leaves office without issuing a single Presidential pardon, only granting a commutation of sentence to two former border patrol agents convicted of shooting a convicted drug smuggler. He does not grant any type of clemency to Scooter Libby or any other former political aide, ally, or business partner.

> > > Eight years ago yesterday:
President Clinton issues 140 pardons and several commutations of sentence on his final day in office. Included in these are: billionaire financier, convicted tax evader, and leading Democratic campaign contributor Marc Rich; Whitewater scandal figure Susan McDougal; Congressional Post Office Scandal figure and former Democratic Congressman Dan Rostenkowski; convicted bank fraud, sexual assault and child porn perpetrator and former Democratic Congressman Melvin Reynolds; and convicted drug felon Roger
Clinton , the President's half-brother.

> > > Yesterday:
The Bush daughters leave gift baskets in the White House bedrooms for the Obama daughters, containing flowers, candy, stuffed animals, DVD's and CD's, and heartfelt notes of encouragement and advice for the young girls on how to prepare for their new lives in the White House.

> > > Eight years ago Yesterday: Clinton and Gore staffers rip computer wires and electrical outlets from the White House walls, stuff piles of notebook papers into the White House toilets, systematically remove the letter "W" from every computer key-pad in the entire White House, and damage several thousand dollars worth of furniture in the White House master bedroom, Eight years ago.

> > > Headlines On This Date 4 Years Ago:
"Republicans spending $42 million on inauguration while troops Die in unarmored Humvees" "Bush extravagance exceeds any reason during tough economic times" "Fat cats get their $42 million inauguration party, Ordinary Americans get the shaft"

> > > Headlines Today:
"Historic Obama Inauguration will cost only $170 million" "Obama Spends $170 million on inauguration; America Needs A Big Party" "Everyman Obama shows America how to celebrate" "Citibank executives contribute $8 million to Obama Inauguration"

802 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:47:11pm

re: #797 lostlakehiker

I don't think that there is any relationship between CO2 levels and the climate.

There has been no evidence of that, outside of junk science circles.

803 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:48:58pm

re: #797 lostlakehiker

It is a climate modifier, which is another thing.

I am not at all convinced of this from the climate data available. While CO2 and temperature data follow similar trend lines, it seems that climate is actually a CO2 modifier.

804 lostlakehiker  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:50:12pm

re: #774 WhiteRasta

Mt. Pinatubo in the Philippines spews more CO2 in a day than humankind produces in a year.

And yes, Carbon Dioxide is just plant food. Without it, there would be no life on earth.
For the loonies to say CO2 is a pollutant is such a ridiculously laughable statement, I find it hard to believe anything they say.

This is just false to fact. Humanity's CO2 production is so consistent and on such a large scale that it dwarfs the average output of Mt. Pinatubo. On the very day of a big eruption, things might be the other way around, but Pinatubo does not erupt spectacularly, day after day.

You need to make some sort of effort to check your numbers before just making or quoting up claims that are wildly wrong.

Here's a place to start. Pinatubo CO2 facts. Here is another link: 42 megatons CO2 in Pinatubo eruption. And here is a link with details of how much human CO2 emissions amounted to in 2006. 5.6 gigatons CO2. As you see, it is more than 100 times as much. And Pinatubo does not erupt like that every year, year in year out.

It took me all of five minutes to get this info and post it. Rush Limbaugh's fact checkers could have done it as easily. So could you.

805 ConservatismNow!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:50:41pm

re: #801 Oh no...Sand People!

Jeez. That's depressing, but quite par for the course for the Clintonistas.

806 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:50:43pm

re: #797 lostlakehiker

On this point, the MIT climate scientist I heard was emphatic, and the SUNY scientist (who was pro global warming) agreed with him. The temperature is NOT increasing proportionate to the increases in the levels of CO2 we're seeing. It's not happening. And THAT is contrary to Al Gore's erroneous "model".

807 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:06:00pm

re: #726 Walter L. Newton

It's evident that the Island is older than most mankind, that the Island has something to do with the quantum state of out planet, and the Island itself can and does effect the future.

So, do you think they are going to bring entanglement into it?

808 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:09:06pm

re: #634 Salem

If there are more "climate change science" I'll be glad to stay out with my opinion, which is pretty established, anyway. Let only the peer-reviewed among us debate it. You see? There's little chance if everyone went for that there would be any substantial debate about the subject at all. Would that, then, be good? Should Al Gore be above the fray? Are we going to let computer models tell us how to live? Or that our existence is a problem for the earth?

Why did these people get to cut to the front of the freaking line? Where are the super-volcano people fighting to protect us from super-volcanos?

Yep, when you buy into climate change there's just no arguing with you at all. You're too smart to see the obvious.

Oops! That should have been "climate change science" threads.

809 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:18:39pm

re: #804 lostlakehiker

Ah, thanks. Nothing like being fact checked.....

810 hazzyday  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:23:20pm

What throws me in this debate is "Carbon Credits"

Carbon ,Atomic Number: 6, Symbol: C, Atomic Weight: 12.011

Discovery: Carbon exists free in nature and has been known since prehistoric time.

But I think they mean CO2 when it's talked about in Global Warming circles.

C is soot, CO2 is something plants breathe.

The greenhouse gas effect is a natural regulator of life on the planet.

811 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:26:28pm

re: #769 NukeAtomrod

The ocean stores CO2 in a manner similar to coal, oil, wood, broccoli or limestone. You can get the CO2 out of coal or oil by burning it. You can get it out of the wood by burning it or letting it rot. The broccoli by burning it, letting it rot or eating it. The limestone by applying acid to it. And the ocean by increasing the temperature.

If the ocean doesn't produce CO2, then nothing does. All of these things just store it in one form or another until something releases it.

The point about natural production of CO2 is that in a balanced situation it is reabsorbed in a relatively short time by the same entities that released it. In the case of forest fires or dying plants, it is reabsorbed by the ones that grow back within years of any event. In the case of volcanoes there is the buffer capability of nature, to absorb more or less up to a point.

However, all this focus on CO2 can be misleading because by itself it is not the only factor. There are other chemicals disproportionately released by human activity that pound for pound have a greater effect than CO2 alone.

None of this is to say that there cannot under any circumstance be "natural" fluctuations that could be dangerous, there have been in the distant past, but making a political partisan issue of it doesn't settle the science, right or wrong.

812 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:28:12pm

re: #634 Salem

Who is this "too smart" of which you speak? ;)

813 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:29:33pm

Whiterasta:

CO2 is a climate modifier, you cannot reasonably argue that it isn't anymore than creationists can reasonably argue that the earth is 6k yrs old. That's been established for a long time. If you are going to debate you better focus on the amount that man contributes, and the extent to which that could affect the climate. The argument right now revolves around is it a "catalyst" type of climate modifier as some are clearly arguing, or is it just another small part of the "greenhouse gas" category. Anything more than that is just silly.

814 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:34:27pm
815 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:35:34pm

re: #802 WhiteRasta

I don't think that there is any relationship between CO2 levels and the climate.

There has been no evidence of that, outside of junk science circles.

At what level of CO2 would you be willing to modify that statement?

Just asking, since you sound like you know what you are talking about.

816 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:35:56pm

re: #814 MIRV

Yeah. Conservatives picked the wrong people to speak for them...

817 Wm T Sherman  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:36:06pm
64 Perplexed

Still waiting for them to find an ozone hole over either Dallas or Houston. Wondering how freon, a heavier than air chemical migrated from hot places to the polar regions only to wind up 10-50km off the ground. Also wonder how freon remained a gas at -60 F temperatures.

Freon is a gas. Like any gas, its molecules diffuse through air. Like any gas released into the air, it ends up everywhere in the atmosphere. The Freon in the atmosphere remains a gas at low temperatures because it is highly dilute. Consider: Even ice has a vapor pressure. Ice exposed to dry air will slowly evaporate.

The reactions that consume ozone are catalyzed by ice particles and are favored by lower temperatures.

The ozone hole over Antarctica is real. Unlike global warming, it is easy to image unambiguously over a short time period.

Different ballgame from global warming altogether.

818 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:36:10pm

re: #814 MIRV

How about if it was you?

819 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:39:45pm

re: #815 Naso Tang

There seems to be lots of evidence that CO2 follows changes in the climate, not that it causes changes in the climate.

Big difference.

No, I'm not any kind of expert in the field of climatology, but I know what bullshit smells like and this reeks of it.

820 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:40:37pm

re: #819 WhiteRasta

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]
[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

821 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:43:16pm

re: #812 Naso Tang

Who is this "too smart" of which you speak? ;)

Those who think that believing in AGW gives them a veneer of credibility. It's a confidence game and they bought the snake-oil so they aren't about to accept that it doesn't work because then they figure they'd look stupid so instead they insist that everyone who doesn't buy it are the stupid ones.

822 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:43:19pm

re: #819 WhiteRasta

There seems to be lots of evidence that CO2 follows changes in the climate, not that it causes changes in the climate.

Big difference.

No, I'm not any kind of expert in the field of climatology, but I know what bullshit smells like and this reeks of it.

I know the style well. You just imitated a windbreaker.

823 tradewind  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:44:45pm

Someone please help me understand who was measuring the levels of sea ice extant say, five hundred years ago. Or even two hundred years ago... either figure but a millisecond in geohistorical weather cycles.
......Oh wait..... no one !
Just saying.

824 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:45:54pm

re: #821 Salem

Hey, you started that. Believe it or not, my disagreement didn't imply you were stupid.

Shall we discuss the meaning of faith or the meaning of facts?

825 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:01:24pm

re: #824 Naso Tang

Hey, you started that. Believe it or not, my disagreement didn't imply you were stupid.

Shall we discuss the meaning of faith or the meaning of facts?

What facts are there to discuss, exactly? The fact that humans could never in a million years produce as much greenhouse gasses as nature could in one afternoon? That the earth has always gone through temperature cycles and always will? That the sun does far more to effect our climate than we could ever conceive of doing? That the AGW advocates can't be bothered by the very real threats to the earth that are out of the realm of theory? That they can't quite decide whether we're warming or cooling and that's not supposed to matter? That they think they know what the earth's ideal climate is and they aren't going to take a vote on it or anything else? That the environmentalists have vast unelected powers and don't seem to recognize sovereignty outside of themselves? That they hold the US to an impossible standard and China and India get a pass? That the limosine liberals scoff at actually practicing what they preach?

And that isn't faith?! This is what I mean by being too smart to see the obvious.

826 phaedruscj  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:02:15pm

wattsupwiththat has all the details on Artic Ice aqnd the satellite problems

Maybe lgf should do a bit of fact checking themselves.

UPDATE: 11:30PM 2/20 CT has removed the comments about George Will from the main page, but still no mention there of the satellite outage nor are they displaying imagery on the main page from 2/20/09 The most recent is 02/19/09. It will be interesting to see what tomorrow brings.

[Link: wattsupwiththat.com...]

827 Zhukov  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:04:17pm

Charles,

ACRC have now removed their comment about Will, and Carl Zimmer has updated his blog entry.

ACRC now admits the their sensors are broken, and have been for the last 45 days. The Feb 15 comparison was already quite unfair in my opinion, since Will is claimed to have been referring to the last quarter of 2008, rather than predicting future developments, let alone broken sensors.

The faulty sensor was not discovered due to any fact-checking or QA by ACRC or Zimmer, but by bloggers, as is so often the case nowadays ;)

Back to Will. The full quote runs:
"Since September, however, the increase in sea ice has been the fastest change, either up or down, since 1979, when satellite record-keeping began. According to the University of Illinois' Arctic Climate Research Center, global sea ice levels now equal those of 1979."

To my eyes, data at ACRC seems to support both these claims:
Image: global.daily.ice.area.withtrend.jpg

The jump at the end of 2008 does appear steeper than anything else on the chart, and the anomaly for late 1979 and late 2008 is very similar.

I have to trust my eyes, and I'm sorry from what I see they do not disagree with Will's statement as quoted.

None of this is really relevant to the larger issues in the AGW debate, but accusing Will of willful misrepresentation of the facts in this case seems a bit unfair. IMHO he should have clearly specified the period of time referred to and maybe put a modifier like "close" or "very near" and possibly even a caveat on longer trends in there, but when it comes to substandard fact-checking on behalf of MSM editors I think we have bigger fish to fry...

828 JayCurrie2  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:04:50pm
UPDATE: 11:30PM 2/20 CT has removed the comments about George Will from the main page, but still no mention there of the satellite outage nor are they displaying imagery on the main page from 2/20/09 watts up with that

And from a rather well informed commentor at WUWT:

Though I’m sorry to see the failure of the SSMI sensor, I’m glad it will no longer be used by NSIDC to further the AGW hoax. I take a personal interest, since the sensor is based on my dissertation (Wisconsin-Madison, 1976) and research with the late Dr. Jim Hollinger of Naval Research Labs. I wrote the sensor specifications, and was manager of the Hughes Aircraft software team that developed the processing code. We turned that software over to NSIDC, free gratis (with government permission). Had I known then what they would do with the data, I’d have traveled to Illinois or to Podunk instead.

There are two reasons for my disgust with NSIDC. One is their endorsement of Al Gore’s Inconvenient Truth, posted in a blog on their website, and signed by Walt Meier (and Ted Scambos). Scientists who endorse Mr. Gore are not scientists; they’re propagandists.

The second reason is the annual Summer analysis of ever decreasing Arctic ice extent, made in August, when “melt ponds” abound on the ice surface. A couple of mm of melt water make the submerged ice look like open water. Everyone familiar with microwave remote sensing is aware of this, and the disagreement by the National Ice Center with the NSIDC analysis has been noted in the past on this blog. Sensor degradation makes such analysis even more questionable.

No sympathy for NSIDC. Bad science/propaganda is worse than none at all.

Richard C. Savage
Colorado

Will's facts were right. Perhaps righter than he knew.

What we are seeing is the gradual unraveling of the strong form of the AGW hypothesis. (The weak form being that man is one factor in climate change the importance of which we cannot, yet, determine.)

Charles, if you want to comment on AGW you owe it to yourself to read both Watts up with that and Climate Audit. CA is pretty dense but it has just taken apart the fraud perpetrated a few weeks ago with respect to the alleged warming in Antarctica. WUWT, which won best science blog this year is much more accessible.

829 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:07:03pm

re: #822 Naso Tang

I'm not sure I understand your statement.

830 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:08:59pm

I'm betting that the AGW debate is going to be as acrimonious as the Evolution debate.

Much smiting of trolls.......

831 Silvergoat  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:10:07pm

Add this to Will's column. They underestimated the ice pack by an area the size of the state of California.......so much for accuracy in the Chicken Little squad.

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

832 WhiteRasta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:12:13pm

re: #831 Silvergoat

I love it....

833 tradewind  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:12:57pm

re: #3 Perplexed

That was my point when I asked who was measuring ice cover hundreds of years ago.
re: #823 tradewind
Evidently, someone was really offended. Sorry.

834 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:21:16pm

re: #825 Salem

What facts are there to discuss, exactly? The fact that humans could never in a million years produce as much greenhouse gasses as nature could in one afternoon? That the earth has always gone through temperature cycles and always will? That the sun does far more to effect our climate than we could ever conceive of doing? ..............

One fact is that you are in a worse mood than I am this evening, although I've been there too.

You make a lot of points that piss you off, but the first ones are more talkable than the others.

Humans can produce more than nature, because humans are releasing in decades those that nature has stored for millions of years. Those that nature releases, like fires, are not a net contributor because the seeds of the burnt plants use the released chemicals to regrow, in decades.

Volcanoes can release more, and have in the past, but eons ago. We are not in a global volcanic eruption stage and have not been in the evolutionary times of humans.

The earth has gone through wild extremes, but not since before the times of dinosaurs, which had over a hundred million years of relative stable conditions, which is probably why they didn't colonize Mars.
(/Not enough punctuated equilibrium pressures. Joke)

There is no evidence that there has been any significant change in solar output in the span of human existence beyond the recognized solar cycles. I do not know of any studies that show solar output has changed significantly and is alleged to account for any "alleged" earth warming. Please direct me if you do, because I don't read everything out there.

835 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:25:28pm

re: #829 WhiteRasta

I'm not sure I understand your statement.

I suspect some people do. Mine was a smart ass reply to a smart ass comment about smelling shit.

Can you think of an alternate meaning to the word windbreaker?

This is a test. This is only a test........

836 Zhukov  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:31:38pm

The current state of the sensors can be enjoyed by comparing Northern Hemisphere ice cover yesterday and today at:

[Link: igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu...]
(this link will obviously have a limited shelf life until they fix it)

Judging from the size of these "swaths" I doubt if three day moving averages will fix it. They don't seem limited to "southern latitudes" either - but "south" may be anything below 89 deg N...

Looks like a serious malfunction. Good thing that the bloggers at WUWT caught it.

837 lostlakehiker  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:36:18pm

re: #205 Iron Fist

I'm wanting the motherfuckers to show me where the climate has ever been a constant, and by ever, I mean, like, ever. From what we know from the fossil record, there were ages and ages (millions of years) where the climate was hotter than it is now. We aren't going to exceed the maximum temperature that the planet has known even if the most apocalyptic estimates are true.

There have been millenia of Ice Ages (s as in plural) in the past as well, so we aren't as cold as the maximum cold that has been experienced in the history of the Earth. In short, the climate has been both hotter than it is now, and it has been colder than it is now.

THERE WERE NO FUCKING HUMANS AROUND TO EFFECT THE ENVIRONMENT EITHER WAY WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

Yeah, I yelling, because I am fucking tired of the Luddite Left telling me that we need to get back to me living in a mud hut to save the world, while their fucking elite are jetting around the globe in their private jets as they go from macro-mansion to macro-mansion in their global, "citizen of the world" lifestyle.

Point blank, Al Gore doesn't act like he believes the horse shit that he is peddling. Neither do any of the other global warmists. They are acting like an enemy of the United States, trying to attack our economy from behind a smokescreen of "environmentalism".

Odds are, they appear to be acting that way because, well, that is what is really happening. None of the global warmists can be accused of being overly-partisan in favor of the United States or the People of the United States.

You talkin to me? I yield to no one in my patriotism, nor in my enthusiasm for sustained technological civilization. I too resent Al Gore's jet-setting alarmism. He is no citizen of the world. Still, there is this small matter: while it's been hotter than hell, and colder than frozen, all over the earth, all that happened before we came along. To show that there can be natural forces that warm the earth is NOT to show that humanity cannot now do the same.

There have been floods that carved out canyons, before humanity came along. But there have also been floods when man-made earthen dams failed, and a man-made lake flooded down a mountain gorge, carving out a canyon of sorts.

That flood killed people, and there is no law of nature saying that we cannot hurt ourselves by heating the earth up beyond what would serve our own health and prosperity best.

838 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:36:36pm

Hell, what do I care? Let the global warmists run wild. I know people are steadily getting sick of this garbage and it will be eventually be shunted aside as we are forced to deal with non-fiction existential threats (if the world doesn't end, first). And inside of a decade the halfway sane AGW advocates will be loathe to admit they ever believed it and will have that folly hanging over them to the end if they were particularly prolific in dispensing their propaganda.

And you can call that faith or whatever and say I'm not qualified to even debate it but I have never had any doubt how it will end.

839 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:38:32pm

I've been focused on discussions that don't rely on Antarctic ice levels beyond being one of many possible indicators in this issue.

Can anyone tell me what is the significance of a satellite sensor malfunction over the past couple of months, if I understand it right, to the differences between Antarctic ice coverage over the past decades?

I know I've seen some satellite pictures not long ago from somewhere that show major changes. What is this "sensor" stuff, since I thought it was a matter of simply laying one picture over another.

Apologies for not doing my own research yet, but it sounds like some people here could answer this in a few sentences.

840 lostnearpittsburgh  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:56:44pm

Charles,

I have enjoyed LGF immensely over the years. You have done a tremendous service to conservative causes. Unfortunately there is a disturbing trend that motives of conservatives are called into question before nefarious intent is evident.

Even if impure motives could somehow be proven, "poisoning the well" is a common logical fallacy — no better than ad hominem, straw man, bandwagon, or guilt by association. I have no qualm with pointing out errors. Questioning motives, however, departs from analysis based purely upon fact, logic, and scientific merit.

George Will made an error that MSM fact checkers didn't catch — no big surprise there. I see far more egregious errors, on points far more germane, "unintentionally" slip past fact checkers every day in the New York Times. Will could have chosen any number of other scientific studies to bolster his point. He did, in fact. None of the other major points in his opinion piece were in error.

Lacking scientific knowledge, Will should perhaps be more careful before opining on anthropological global warming, but immediately calling his motives into question is unseemly.

Full disclosure: I am a scientist with an advanced degree from Johns Hopkins and you can count me as an anthropological global warming skeptic.

841 JayCurrie2  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 7:02:43pm

Naso Tang, a quick summary (from a layman) of the Antarctica question. In general terms Antarctica should be "warming" along with the rest of the planet. The problem was that the recorded temps were cooling in all but the Western Peninsula. A chap named Steig - assisted by Michael Mann of hockey stick fame - set out to rectify the "problem". In due course he produced a paper in which he found the expected "warming". The fun began when it became apparent that a) he had mislocated a critical station, b) had conflated one station with another, c) several of the stations had been buried under snow (a well known insulator) for years at a time. But the fun continued as Steve McIntyre and his crew began to try to figure out how Steig et al had arrived at their estimates of "missing data". (It is typical of the AGW "team" that they do not release their code, algorithms or, in many cases, raw data.) Increasingly, it is looking like the statistical methods used are inappropriate if not downright misleading.

The take away is that it is unlikely that Antarctica is warming but if it is then the changes are tiny. Pop over to Climate Audit for the details...but it will make your head hurt.

842 Perplexed  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 7:13:33pm

re: #817 Wm T Sherman

Freon is a gas. Like any gas, its molecules diffuse through air. Like any gas released into the air, it ends up everywhere in the atmosphere. The Freon in the atmosphere remains a gas at low temperatures because it is highly dilute. Consider: Even ice has a vapor pressure. Ice exposed to dry air will slowly evaporate.

The reactions that consume ozone are catalyzed by ice particles and are favored by lower temperatures.

The ozone hole over Antarctica is real. Unlike global warming, it is easy to image unambiguously over a short time period.

Different ballgame from global warming altogether.

Okay, ice does sublimate, going from a solid to a gas without entering a liquid phase. That's pretty easy. Take a sample of air and lower the temperature to 0 F. You get water vapor freezing out of the air and onto the sides of the container. That's pretty easy too. So what would prevent freon gas from condensing out of the atmosphere? Too dilute? So does water vapor but it condenses out.

I would expect a freon caused ozone depletion hole over, say Houston or Dallas if for no other reason but temperatures and gas concentrations. Also freon is chemically pretty stable and that the ambient temperature at 50 Km being -60 F or lower makes me wonder what kind of chemicals are reactive enough to chew up ozone.

843 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 7:38:25pm

re: #841 JayCurrie2

Thanks, but one "study" and it's flaws is not what I was asking. I know I have seen overlays of satellite photos of past years. Either there is a significant change or not. I thought from what I read here that some knew the immediate answer to that.

844 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 7:48:23pm

I think I need to retire, but for those interested I did a little of my own reading and as usual there is more than two sides to any such story. Picking just one won't lead anywhere.



Each autumn the surface ocean around Antarctica freezes forming a veneer of sea ice. At its maximum in September, Antarctic sea ice extends over about 20 million square kilometres (nearly three times the area of Australia). However, Antarctic sea ice is highly seasonal, and at its minimum in February it has an extent of only 3-4 million square kilometres. Sea ice cover contributes strongly to the global weather and climate system.


So when we talk of this or that measurement of sea ice and suggest a well known link with other climate, what month are we talking about?

Of course this is Antarctica, not Arctic.

845 Pythagoras  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:12:17pm

re: #84 Charles

What am I missing here? I read almost all of this thread, including the stupid, OT flame wars, and on balance, I side with Will.

If the first link in post #318 is legit, the University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research Center owes George Will an apology. He quoted their own dang headline for crying out loud. Maybe he should have done more research but he didn't misquote them. The word "lying" is not justified here.

However, you are right in saying that the ex post facto update on the satellite problem is irrelevant. George could have done more/better research before going to press on this. But, hey, LOTS of people in the AGW debate could have done better research. The level of BS floating around out there is astonishing.

Still, George did pick a terrible example to make his point.

846 hopperandadropper  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:18:37pm

re: #446 Naso Tang

No, I mean Arctic. There is a lot of evidence that the overall icepack in Antarctica is more extensive now than it was 10 or 20 years ago, but that's a separate issue. I'm talking about the North Pole and parts nearby.

847 hopperandadropper  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:53:46pm

re: #670 Jimmah

The polar ice caps on Mars have also been shrinking, which has been well documented by NASA for several years. The most likely explanation for this is variability in solar output. Are you two seriously arguing that solar output is invariable?

848 Totally Berserk  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:53:58pm

Uh-oh. I'm confuzel. Do we not want no global warming, or what?

849 hopperandadropper  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:21:38pm

re: #834 Naso Tang

It is beyond dispute that the earth as a whole has been both much warmer and much cooler than it is right now. That's just a basic scientific fact. Those extremes, and the changes that led to them, took place long before any possible effect of human activity. With that in mind, why is it necessary to invoke human activity as the cause (or even a major contributing factor) of whatever changes we have seen in the course of a few decades? It's well within the bounds of the known natural variability, so why does it constitute a crisis and why do we need to blame it on human activity at all?

Keep in mind, this does not mean that human activity has no effect on local climate. Deforestation, depletion of surface water, etc., can have very large local effects. That's extremely well documented, but it's not what the Goreans are talking about. Likewise, air and water pollution, depletion of fish populations in the ocean, etc., are very real and very negative consequences of human activity that need to be addressed and corrected. But they are not "global warming" and can't be discussed in the same context, at least not in any meaningful way.

850 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:33:41pm

re: #834 Naso Tang

One fact is that you are in a worse mood than I am this evening, although I've been there too.

You make a lot of points that piss you off, but the first ones are more talkable than the others.

Humans can produce more than nature, because humans are releasing in decades those that nature has stored for millions of years. Those that nature releases, like fires, are not a net contributor because the seeds of the burnt plants use the released chemicals to regrow, in decades.

Volcanoes can release more, and have in the past, but eons ago. We are not in a global volcanic eruption stage and have not been in the evolutionary times of humans.

The earth has gone through wild extremes, but not since before the times of dinosaurs, which had over a hundred million years of relative stable conditions, which is probably why they didn't colonize Mars.
(/Not enough punctuated equilibrium pressures. Joke)

There is no evidence that there has been any significant change in solar output in the span of human existence beyond the recognized solar cycles. I do not know of any studies that show solar output has changed significantly and is alleged to account for any "alleged" earth warming. Please direct me if you do, because I don't read everything out there.

I have to think you have made better arguments than these. Just let me ask you this: If global temperatures rise three or four degrees in the next twenty years, will there be any doubt in your mind that it was man-made? That it wasn't just the usual culprit that is nature itself? Are you that far gone? You don't think the sun affects the earth's climate? That volcanoes aren't a factor anymore? That the climate was never going to change again on it's own for the first time in natural history?

I will not bother with you.

851 LieSeeker  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:34:11pm

re: #721 Killgore Trout

SD defense can be found at GoV.

Which part of .gov? :-)

852 LieSeeker  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:40:05pm

re: #834 Naso Tang


Humans can produce more than nature, because humans are releasing in decades those that nature has stored for millions of years.

How much oil and methane used to seep out of the edges of deposits before we reduced the pressure?

And carbon dioxide levels used to be higher millions of years ago. What's wrong with restoring natural levels of carbon dioxide?

853 Salem  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:49:20pm

Sorry. I don't mean to be so pissy. Just consider for a moment how gullible it makes you look to promote this crap. That's all I'm saying.

854 Zhukov  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:18:24pm

Will based his claim on this article in DailyTech:
[Link: www.dailytech.com...]

When ACRC makes the claim:

" We do not know where George Will is getting his information, but our data shows that on February 15, 1979, global sea ice area was 16.79 million sq. km and on February 15, 2009, global sea ice area was 15.45 million sq. km. Therefore, global sea ice levels are 1.34 million sq. km less in February 2009 than in February 1979. This decrease in sea ice area is roughly equal to the area of Texas, California, and Oklahoma combined."

they are the ones spreading misinformation. They know full well where the Will got his data, since they are the source... But they chose to create a strawman and compare with the most current data, from Feb 15, apparently to avoid the issue that Will's statement on late 2008 ice extent being equal to 1979 was true.

This is dishonest, since they knew full well to which time frame he was referring. Basing their strawman on faulty data makes it more embarrasing, but is really beside the point. Will was right - the NCRC tried and failed to confuse the issue.

The statement has now been withdrawn from the ACRC website, and Zimmern has updated his blog.

Will appears to be impopular for a lot of other reasons - but on this issue he appears to be right.

855 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:31:01pm

re: #854 Zhukov

Zimmern has updated his blog.

No, he has not.

[Link: blogs.discovermagazine.com...]

856 Immolate  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:52:12pm

When are we going to get some of this blinking global warming everyone's been going on about? If it doesn't hurry on up and show itself, I'm going to turn into a global popsicle. Already, my hair breaks off when I try to brush it and my testacles clatter when I walk. I live in Florida.

I can't find my pool. WHERE IS MY POOL?

857 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:08:56pm

re: #847 hopperandadropper

The polar ice caps on Mars have also been shrinking, which has been well documented by NASA for several years. The most likely explanation for this is variability in solar output. Are you two seriously arguing that solar output is invariable?

No. The fact, not the argument, is that variations in output do not match the recent trends in either Earth or Mars climate. The observed changes in Mars climate are explained here.

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

858 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:49:15pm

re: #854 Zhukov

That article assumes that the reader understands that sea ice coverage variations are spiky, and that observations comparing one point in time with another do not establish a trend. The fact that selecting another date just a couple of months down the line and comparing that with the data from exactly 30 years ago changes the story proves that. Will's piece did not say this, rather it suggested the opposite and in doing so misinformed.

From [Link: blogs.discovermagazine.com...] -

If someone from the Post’s crackerjack multi-layer squad of fact-checkers had bothered to pick up the phone, they could have simply asked, “Is it indeed true that global sea ice levels now equal those of 1979?”

And they would have probably gotten an answer like this: “Well, what do you mean by now? Today? And what do you mean by 1979? Exactly thirty years ago today? If that’s what you mean, the answer is no.”

A good fact-checker would then say, “Well, it seems this claim is based on an article that came out January 1.”

To which the scientist would say something along the lines of, “At that point it was near or slightly lower what was observed in late 1979.”

At the very least, that discrepancy would have to be corrected. But a good fact-checker would see a deeper problem, saying, “Whoa, that changed a lot in a month and a half.”

Which would then lead to a discussion of the fact ice cover is such a noisy process that picking out a single day to compare these numbers does not say a lot about how it is affected by climate change. Climatologists look over longer time scales.

859 Consanescerion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:16:11am

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

Since the satellite that the University of Illinois uses for reporting is malfunctioning, and they've been told about this repeatedly for months and months...

Then Carl Zimmer of Discovery magazine was also erroneous in his article where he criticized George Will. The statistics he cited were wrong. Period. End of story. Will merely made textual error, he said "a study" rather than "their work" or "their studies"... but the U of I has been publishing fake data for God knows how long. Was it deliberate fraud or an innocent mistake? They disregarded frequent complaints... smells like fraud to me.

The whole AGW thing is crap. The warmists can keep massaging the data as much as they like, it won't keep the Thames from freezing over.

860 roberth  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:12:34am

If LGF is starting to point out misrepresentations in the global warming field there won't be any room left for other topics. Time to drop this one as the misrepresentations are predominantly by the alarmists.

861 WWID  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 7:09:14am

Charles,
Can you link to the UI Research Center's statement on the Mills articles?

862 MadJadBad  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 7:41:15am

re: #834 Naso Tang


Volcanoes can release more, and have in the past, but eons ago. We are not in a global volcanic eruption stage and have not been in the evolutionary times of humans.

According to the US Geological Survey, volcanoes emit over 130 MILLION tons of carbon dioxide annually. One recent eruption of 1 volcano (Kilauea) released 2000 tons of sulfur dioxide. ([Link: volcanoes.usgs.gov...]


The earth has gone through wild extremes, but not since before the times of dinosaurs, which had over a hundred million years of relative stable conditions

For most of the Cenezoic era (the age of mammals) there have been no polar ice caps. ([Link: math.ucr.edu...]
The Paleocene–Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM), the largest global temperature spike found in the geologic record, also occurred in the Cenezoic ([Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I have no doubt that human activity has an effect on the climate, but to say that it is the cause of global warming is making a huge leap. I'm 99.9% sure that legislation to stop global warming will have no impact. It would be as effective as legislation to stop the earth's impending magnetic field reversal.

863 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 7:48:02am

re: #860 roberth

If LGF is starting to point out misrepresentations in the global warming field there won't be any room left for other topics. Time to drop this one as the misrepresentations are predominantly by the alarmists.

I don't recall asking you for advice on what I should post at LGF.

864 pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 7:52:26am

Probably way to late on this thread, but I noticed at the UI site a difference between daily ice area and mean ice area. If Will was using mean ice area as a point of comparison, his point is more supportable, though unfortunately he does not give the reader the benefit of understanding which data he is using for his analysis. That is unless I'm reading the charts incorrectly - which is quite possible as I'm only on my first cup of coffee.

865 pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 7:58:11am

re: #864 pianobuff

Probably way to late on this thread, but I noticed at the UI site a difference between daily ice area and mean ice area. If Will was using mean ice area as a point of comparison, his point is more supportable, though unfortunately he does not give the reader the benefit of understanding which data he is using for his analysis. That is unless I'm reading the charts incorrectly - which is quite possible as I'm only on my first cup of coffee.

Question retracted... I'm on my second cup of coffee...duh - realizing what "mean" means....

866 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:14:23am

re: #862 MadJadBad

Volcanoes are not contributing significantly to the increase in CO2 levels. This is a fact.

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

867 JustAHouseWife  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:22:20am

re: #857 Jimmah

No. The fact, not the argument, is that variations in output do not match the recent trends in either Earth or Mars climate. The observed changes in Mars climate are explained here.

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

Ugh. Don't promote that site. They censor posts and do not let anyone including scientists they bash post to question their "explanations" and if they do let one through, they edit it, make comments in it, and then not allow that person to reply again.

Dr. Michael Mann's profile, look at his "in the press" web page where he links to NPR and The Daily Kos.

BTW 50 yrs of data (from "The space age") is pretty much ZERO data for "real" scientists to say something "un-natural" is going on about a planet. People who buy into this nonsense have no concept of time and how vast the geological record is for this planet including climate scientists. Climatology, as a branch of Science isn't even that old and its origin is in statistics. If it were not for geology, climatologists would not even know the climate on Earth could change at all, yet any thing we know from geology is passed over in every debate by believers in AGW. You just think about that.

868 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:32:35am

re: #867 JustAHouseWife

"Real climate? Eek!" Sorry, but you sound like the creationist who shrieks whenever someone posts a link to TalkOrigins. If you want to argue that the explanation given regarding changes in Mars climate and polar ice caps is wrong then by all means go ahead. But just saying that you don't like the site and that they link to Kos doesn't cut it. Also, the suggestion that most scientists working in this field are dumbasses who can't make the most basic logical connections really doesn't fly.

BTW 50 yrs of data (from "The space age") is pretty much ZERO data for "real" scientists to say something "un-natural" is going on about a planet.

Uh-huh. The ozone hole -what was that then?

869 JustAHouseWife  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:35:46am

re: #862 MadJadBad

And some scientist speculate The Paleocene–Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM) could have be caused by some sort of methane burst, and it is a more potent green house gas; and methane concentrations in the atmosphere have doubled in the industrial age. There is concern, but not anything like the AGW crowd has about that tiny gas in our atmosphere called C02.

870 JustAHouseWife  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:39:03am

re: #868 Jimmah

The ozone hole could have always been waxing and waning naturally too. We don't know for sure because we couldn't look at it before. That is the point.

871 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:45:34am

re: #870 JustAHouseWife

The ozone hole could have always been waxing and waning naturally too. We don't know for sure because we couldn't look at it before. That is the point.

The evidence from chemistry and observations is very strong that man was the cause of the ozone depletion. You are clutching at straws.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

872 JustAHouseWife  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:54:48am

re: #871 Jimmah
No I am not. I didn't claim that humans didn't have any effect on the ozone hole the point is you can't tell me there wasn't always a hole or that the hole didn't size in the past all the time naturally.
BTW Linking to wikipedia is clutching at straws too IMHO, my dear.

873 JustAHouseWife  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:58:23am

should sayre: #872 JustAHouseWife

should say " didn't change size in the past all the time naturally"

874 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:11:25am

re: #872 JustAHouseWife

As with temperature, scientists do not, as is often mischaracterised by sceptics, claim that the default condition is one of unchanging stability. Nevertheless, they are able to determine that man has indeed made significant contributions to the amount of ozone depleting chemicals in the atmosphere. We know how damaging CFC's are for example; we know how much we have released, we know how they interact with atmospheric components to do the damage they do. We're past the point of denialism on that. Would you really propose that we- in addition to not giving a toss about how much CO2 etc we are releasing - also lift the restrictions on CFC's and other ozone depleting chemicals?

875 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:15:22am

re: #872 JustAHouseWife

BTW Linking to wikipedia is clutching at straws too IMHO, my dear.

Again, expressing derision at the source doesn't make any useful point here.

876 pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:16:55am

re: #854 Zhukov

Will based his claim on this article in DailyTech:
[Link: www.dailytech.com...]

When ACRC makes the claim:

" We do not know where George Will is getting his information, but our data shows that on February 15, 1979, global sea ice area was 16.79 million sq. km and on February 15, 2009, global sea ice area was 15.45 million sq. km. Therefore, global sea ice levels are 1.34 million sq. km less in February 2009 than in February 1979. This decrease in sea ice area is roughly equal to the area of Texas, California, and Oklahoma combined."

they are the ones spreading misinformation. They know full well where the Will got his data, since they are the source... But they chose to create a strawman and compare with the most current data, from Feb 15, apparently to avoid the issue that Will's statement on late 2008 ice extent being equal to 1979 was true.

This is dishonest, since they knew full well to which time frame he was referring. Basing their strawman on faulty data makes it more embarrasing, but is really beside the point. Will was right - the NCRC tried and failed to confuse the issue.

The statement has now been withdrawn from the ACRC website, and Zimmern has updated his blog.

Will appears to be impopular for a lot of other reasons - but on this issue he appears to be right.

While his blog has updates posted, it would appear he stands behind his comments. It is noteworthy, though, that one of his main arguments against the Will article is that he cherry-picked data from the end of 2008 at the same time rebutting Will's arguing by using a day of cherry-picked data (2/15).

877 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:22:24am

re: #876 pianobuff

While his blog has updates posted, it would appear he stands behind his comments. It is noteworthy, though, that one of his main arguments against the Will article is that he cherry-picked data from the end of 2008 at the same time rebutting Will's arguing by using a day of cherry-picked data (2/15).

No, you are missing the point. George Will's article DID misrepresent the position of the University of Illinois; this should have been fact-checked. It would have been a simple matter for a WaPo editor to contact UI and get their statement, and they failed to do so.

878 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:23:58am

It's a bit amazing to me how many people seem to be willing to give the Washington Post and George Will a pass on this blatant misrepresentation -- when they have seen over and over that the MSM has become incredibly lax on fact-checking on issues the right finds dear.

Is it because it's your sacred ox being gored? (Pun intended.)

879 VioletTiger  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:42:41am

My very late two cents..
No matter what side of the argument you take, it is critical that we have accurate, unadulterated data. It's a shame there was such a misrepresentation of the facts- leads to a total lack of credibility.

880 hopperandadropper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:45:37am

re: #857 Jimmah

Yeah, I've heard the dust storm "explanation" before. It ignores the fact that energy is required to generate storms. Larger storms are entirely consistent with greater solar output. BTW, anyone who tries to tell you that we fully understand all forms of solar energy output, and have many decades of accurate measurements of all these things, is blowing smoke up your skirt. Statements like "solar variations do not explain the observations" are disingenuous because they imply that we fully understand all aspects of solar activity.

Also, keep in mind that the changes on Mars date back several years to when solar activity was likely higher than it is now.

881 JustAHouseWife  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:48:36am

re: #874 Jimmah

As with temperature, scientists do not, as is often mischaracterised by sceptics, claim that the default condition is one of unchanging stability. Nevertheless, they are able to determine that man has indeed made significant contributions to the amount of ozone depleting chemicals in the atmosphere. We know how damaging CFC's are for example; we know how much we have released, we know how they interact with atmospheric components to do the damage they do. We're past the point of denialism on that. Would you really propose that we- in addition to not giving a toss about how much CO2 etc we are releasing - also lift the restrictions on CFC's and other ozone depleting chemicals?

Of course not. But the amount of CO2 we are releasing isn't alarming, nor life threatening. That is the myth and the religion IMHO.
graph
Chart of CO2 concentrations over geologic time. You are arguing about 0 on this chart -last tic to the right that you can barely see. Go hundreds of thousands of years to the left, just a couple of tics on that chart and tell me how many times the Earth was in an ice age ie: "cold" or not ie: "warm" with CO2 concentrations MUCH higher then today.

I am sorry, it takes a long time to post for me when the topic gets full of comments. My Mac goes bonkers and runs slow.

Jimmah you will believe want you want I can't convince you of my humble character nor my knowledge either!

882 NukeAtomrod  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:01:50am

re: #878 Charles

It's a bit amazing to me how many people seem to be willing to give the Washington Post and George Will a pass on this blatant misrepresentation -- when they have seen over and over that the MSM has become incredibly lax on fact-checking on issues the right finds dear.

Is it because it's your sacred ox being gored? (Pun intended.)

The theory that man-made CO2 emissions are causing a significant increase in global temperature is incorrect.

George Will's statement about global sea ice is a lie. The Washington Post is complicit in that lie. They get no pass from me.

AGW alarmism was built on lies. It can't be defeated by more lies.

883 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:04:03am

re: #880 hopperandadropper

Yeah, I've heard the dust storm "explanation" before. It ignores the fact that energy is required to generate storms. Larger storms are entirely consistent with greater solar output.

But there was no greater solar output. We have been measuring it.

Statements like "solar variations do not explain the observations" are disingenuous because they imply that we fully understand all aspects of solar activity.

No they're not. It's quite simple - either solar output data matches recent temperature changes, or it doesn't. Guess what? It doesn't.

884 Pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:06:53am

re: #877 Charles

No, you are missing the point. George Will's article DID misrepresent the position of the University of Illinois; this should have been fact-checked. It would have been a simple matter for a WaPo editor to contact UI and get their statement, and they failed to do so.

I think I get the point and would also like an accounting of what exactly Will's fact checkers did - perhaps the new Ombudsman of the WaPo will do that. Let's hope so. Chapman says no. The only comment from Dr. Meier (other than addressing technical workings of the sensors) that I've found so far relates to the subsequent question about the allegedly erroneous data in which he states

"We’re looking into it. For the moment, we’ve removed the data from the timeseries plot.

You need to remember that this is near real-time data and there can be data dropouts and bad data due to satellite issues. While the processing is automatic, the QC is partly manual. Thus errors do happen from time to time and one shouldn’t draw any dramatic conclusions from recent data.

I’m not sure why you think things like this are worth blogging about. Data is not perfect, especially near real-time data. That’s not news."

The additional comment in my original post was included as an observation on your larger point that "No matter where you stand on the issue of anthropogenic climate change, surely we can all agree that misrepresenting facts isn’t going to help anyone understand the subject—and calls into question the motives of those who do it".

As a non-climate-scientist, but someone who has read and is somewhat capable of digesting at least the "essence" of the arguments but not the particulars, my frustration is pretty equally directed to those on both sides of the topic who either out of sloppiness or malice introduce bias. Will's no exception. Frankly, I don't know who to trust on this anymore.

885 hopperandadropper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:39:39am

re: #883 Jimmah

Jimmah, you're obviously a true believer so this is probably futile, but I'll give it one more try. There are many scientists, such as Fred Singer, with very strong credentials in the relevant fields, who don't believe the hypothesis that CO2 generated by human activity has a significant effect on global climate. Most of the physical evidence is consistent with their views, and in fact strongly suggests that the earth undergoes fairly regular cycles of warming and cooling. We have incomplete knowledge of solar variability and its effects on the earth. Sunspot activity is the only solar variable for which we have records going back more than a few decades, and the available evidence shows a strong correlation between sunspot numbers and warmer/colder weather patterns here on Earth. We were in a period of relatively high sunspot activity but over the past few years have moved into a period of low activity that in the past has been correlated with cold weather.

886 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:53:55am

re: #881 JustAHouseWife

On the face of it, that is a compelling point, and it's one that impressed me as well back in my 'hardcore AGW sceptic' days. However, going back over hundreds of millions of years, you are looking at conditions that differed chemically and meteorologically from today in many ways. Many other factors force climate change, not just CO2 levels; all significant factors have to be taken into account. Also, the relationship between CO2 levels and temperature is not a simple arithmetical one - the effect tails off at higher concentrations, so extreme amounts of CO2 do not necessarily equate to correspondingly extreme increases in temperature.

What we know is that as demonstrated in the laboratory, CO2 is indeed a greenhouse gas, we have been increasing the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere over the last 150 years, and our most sophisticated and inclusive climate models predict warming as a result of our actions. If you input only natural factors including variations in solar output into these models, you do not successfully describe the changes in temperature over the last few decades. Solar output goes down while temperature is rising. Only when you input all these factors plus the increases in CO2 levels does the model successfully match observations of the real world.

This is the point that is made in the video that I posted yesterday that you couldn't view. I'll post it again in the hope you have better luck with it*. Alternatively, go to you tube and type in 'Attenborough' and 'climate change' and it should come up.

*Well, now it's me that can't access youtube for some reason. I'll post it when able.

887 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:13:37am

re: #885 hopperandadropper

I'm not a 'true believer' - I go by the facts and evidence. It was through looking at the claims of both sides that I arrived at my current position.

Fred Singer also denies the link between CFC's and ozone depletion, and the link between second hand smoke and lung cancer. A real sage - clearly we should discount the views of the legions of climate scientists who disagree with him on CO2./

Yes there are cycles of warming and cooling and solar activity does correlate well with large parts of the climate history, but these factors don't explain the changes we have measured over the last few decades. Regardiing solar output over the last few decades, it seems that the anti-AGW argument is based on conviction, and pays little attention to the known data: 'It MUST be the sun - we don't know how, we have no evidence to that effect in terms of observations, and the observations we do have strongly suggest otherwise, but it MUST be, all the same'.

888 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:28:36am

re: #881 JustAHouseWife

Here is the video:

Youtube Video

Dinner time for me. BBL.

889 hopperandadropper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:45:03am

re: #887 Jimmah

CO2 generated by human activity was increasingly rapidly during the '60s and '70s, leading up to the time when the concern was about severe global cooling. Glaciers were advancing during this time. So, clearly there is not a perfect correlation between CO2 and temperature. There is a great deal of geological evidence suggesting that CO2 changes trail temperature changes, again strongly suggesting that CO2 does not play an important forcing role.

You can increase the amount of CO2 in a box and show increased retention of radiant heat, but the earth is not a box. The natural system is far more complex. As for models, since there has been no significant warming since 1998 I suspect the models can't even predict the past ten years.

You can set up all the straw men you want, but the anti-AGW viewpoint is not based on some nonsensical rant. It's based on data and common sense. Once again- the output of a computer model does not constitute data. Data means physical observations. The physical observations of the past 100 years show both cooling trends and warming trends, and there is no particular reason to believe that atmospheric CO2 plays a dominant or even an important role. Longer-term physical data clearly show repeated cycles of warming and cooling that could not possibly be the result of human activity.

My skepticism of environmental groups is based on personal experience in other fields. The pack that's now selling AGW is the same crew that was warning twenty years ago about the terrible dangers of biotechnology. They were both wrong and intellectually dishonest. I see the same elements in the arguments for AGW today.

890 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:46:49pm

re: #889 hopperandadropper

CO2 generated by human activity was increasingly rapidly during the '60s and '70s, leading up to the time when the concern was about severe global cooling. Glaciers were advancing during this time. So, clearly there is not a perfect correlation between CO2 and temperature. There is a great deal of geological evidence suggesting that CO2 changes trail temperature changes, again strongly suggesting that CO2 does not play an important forcing role.

CO2 is not the only factor involved in temperature variation. No one is saying that there is a simple direct correlation that you can plot between CO2 and observed temperatures. The argument is that we cannot account for recent trends in temperature without including the effect of increases in CO2 in our calculations. As for the historical CO2/temperature lag see this:

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

You can increase the amount of CO2 in a box and show increased retention of radiant heat, but the earth is not a box. The natural system is far more complex. As for models, since there has been no significant warming since 1998 I suspect the models can't even predict the past ten years.

Models do attempt to take this complexity into account. Models may not be perfect but we can tell it's likely they are tuned reasonably correctly when they are able to successfully model observed temperature changes in the real world, as current models so. Climate scientists are not idiots.

As for no significant warming since 1998:

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

Take a close look at that graph, then pause to reflect on the disingenuousness of those who promote talking points like this to people such as yourself knowing full well how completely misleading they are.

The physical observations of the past 100 years show both cooling trends and warming trends, and there is no particular reason to believe that atmospheric CO2 plays a dominant or even an important role.Longer-term physical data clearly show repeated cycles of warming and cooling that could not possibly be the result of human activity.

Except the fact that climate models don't give the right results for recent decades unless this factor is included. And again, no one is claiming that human beings are the only thing that has ever affected climate. We know that climate change has always been going on. That fact does not preclude the possibility that the recent unusually rapid warming trend has a significant anthropogenic component, as indeed seems highly likely from the evidence.


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