Pamela Geller: The Muslim Brotherhood Controls Every Agency of the US Government

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Today’s unbridled paranoia from Pamela Geller at Andrew Breitbart’s “Big Government:” the US government is totally controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood. Good grief.

Did you know in the FBI’s Counter-Terrorism Manual, the word jihad is not to be found? Not once.

This is no accident. This is happening because for decades the Muslim Brotherhood (i.e., the Muslim American Society, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Islamic Society of North America, the Islamic Circle of North America, etc.), has infiltrated every agency and institution at the highest levels, and they control what is said and how it can be said.

Islam has achieved absolute intellectual dominance. The Muslim Brotherhood groups in the United States control the narrative. They control information and how it is processed at senior levels of the CIA, the FBI, the Pentagon, and the various branches of the military.

The Muslim Brotherhood is very real, and the Islamic organizations Geller lists do have checkered pasts and questionable associations with radical groups. I’ve documented plenty of those associations at LGF.

But to suggest that the entire government of the United States is doing the bidding of the Muslim Brotherhood is … uh … not to put too fine a point on it, bug-eyed staring loony.

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493 comments
1 ryannon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:00:50pm

Stunned silence

2 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:01:04pm
3 Kragar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:01:29pm

*facepalm*

4 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:01:35pm

re: #1 ryannon

Stunned silence

From Geller, I wish.

5 Vambo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:02:18pm
The Muslim Brotherhood is very real, and all the organizations Geller lists do have checkered pasts and questionable associations with radical groups.

I assume you mean the ones in the second paragraph... not the CIA and FBI. (omfg!)

6 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:02:59pm

There's been a generic wingnut wardance in the crazysphere because the Pentagon report on the failures at Fort Hood didn't include enough Islam-bashing.
IMO this is the shrieking harpy's shriek-out to that crowd, as well as connecting up with the HUSSEIN OBAMA IZ A SEEKRIT MUSLIM TERRORIST crazypants meme.

7 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:03:00pm

The US Government is a massive landslide out of control. I really don't think any one person or organization could control it, as much as we would like to think possible.

8 Soap_Man  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:03:01pm
Islam has achieved absolute intellectual dominance. The Muslim Brotherhood groups in the United States control the narrative. They control information and how it is processed at senior levels of the CIA, the FBI, the Pentagon, and the various branches of the military.

Ummm, what?

9 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:03:35pm

"Intellectual dominance" happens in her world when her cat walks into the room.

10 Vambo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:03:51pm

re: #2 MandyManners

Speaking of terrorism, ...

the History Channel was showing hours of 9/11 footage last year. I think it's disgusting - you could literally see people jumping out of windows because they were on fire and burning to death. Why do people want to watch/look at this stuff? It seems unhealthy.

11 ryannon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:04:16pm

re: #7 EmmmieG

The US Government is a massive landslide out of control. I really don't think any one person or organization could control it, as much as we would like to think possible.

Well, that's certainly a relief.

12 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:04:19pm

Coming from a woman whose own religious affiliates have been painted with the same brush makes this pretty hard to hear. She really needs some time away from the blog and the TV. I think she could even get better perspective by taking a trip to Israel. Pam, go to Israel. Hang out in Tel Aviv a few days. Chill. Read a book (not about Islam). Just be. They are not all out to get you. Some of them are, but not all of them.

13 Kragar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:04:47pm

I can easily picture Gellar standing up and claiming that her neighbor's Garden Gnomes are secret jihadists keeping her under observation. She's reached that level of crazy.

14 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:05:31pm

those long term lizards are well familiar with pamelas paranoid rants(Hi pam!)It's what she seems to be good at.I will say that this is really bringing the stupid.

15 Girth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:05:45pm

Someone needs to get this woman some help. Sooner rather than later. Total paranoid fantasy.

16 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:05:49pm

Multiple Epic Facepalms are in order for this craziness.

17 American-African  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:06:16pm

She's a bleedin' nutter.

18 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:06:42pm

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I can easily picture Gellar standing up and claiming that her neighbor's Garden Gnomes are secret jihadists keeping her under observation. She's reached that level of crazy.

TEH NOAMS R SPIEING N MEEE

19 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:07:13pm

re: #17 American-African

She's a bleedin' nutter.

Spot on.

20 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:07:13pm

re: #18 MandyManners

TEH NOAMS R SPIEING N MEEE

That's just what her cat wants her to think.

21 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:07:16pm

Troofer is as troofer does.

22 ryannon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:07:17pm

re: #12 Petero1818

Coming from a woman whose own religious affiliates have been painted with the same brush makes this pretty hard to hear. She really needs some time away from the blog and the TV. I think she could even get better perspective by taking a trip to Israel. Pam, go to Israel. Hang out in Tel Aviv a few days. Chill. Read a book (not about Islam). Just be. They are not all out to get you. Some of them are, but not all of them.

I'm beginning to suspect that Ms. Geller is afflicted with a deep-seated sexual dysfunction.

23 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:07:39pm

re: #18 MandyManners

TEH NOAMS R SPIEING N MEEE

Up for the "TEH NOAMS". That's awesome regardless of context.

24 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:07:58pm
But to suggest that the entire government of the United States is doing the bidding of the Muslim Brotherhood is … uh … not to put too fine a point on it, bug-eyed staring loony.

You're far too kind, Charles. I'd say it was batshit fucking crazy, myself.

25 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:07:58pm

Obama is a Muslim. She's spot on.

26 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:08:04pm

re: #18 MandyManners

TEH NOAMS R SPIEING N MEEE

of the chomsky variety?

27 Silvergirl  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:08:06pm

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I can easily picture Gellar standing up and claiming that her neighbor's Garden Gnomes are secret jihadists keeping her under observation. She's reached that level of crazy.

I don't know her enough to know her level of crazy, though I did see that Joy Behar thing yesterday. *eye roll*

Upding for the bit on garden gnomes!

28 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:08:37pm

re: #22 ryannon

I'm beginning to suspect that Ms. Geller is afflicted with a deep-seated sexual dysfunction.

Well I don't know about the sexual part, and I have no interest in knowing about it, but dysfunctional I would certainly agree with.

29 go_usa  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:08:43pm

I thought US government was controlled by gays . Maybe its the jihadist gays

30 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:09:12pm

And now, we bring you a special treat through the magic of modern technology: the sounds Pamela Geller hears inside her own head.

31 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:09:23pm

re: #25 TampaKnight

Obama is a Muslim. She's spot on.

He was also born in Kenya.
*oof*

32 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:09:30pm

re: #25 TampaKnight

funny that he doesn't claim to be one...he's president whats to stop him from coming out?

33 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:09:36pm

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I can easily picture Gellar standing up and claiming that her neighbor's Garden Gnomes are secret jihadists keeping her under observation. She's reached that level of crazy.

I made a comment once comparing Robert Spencer to an evil garden gnome.

/spooky

34 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:10:34pm

re: #25 TampaKnight

Proofedy proof-proof???
/rhetorical.

35 Summer Seale  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:10:47pm

The shrieking harpy might want to review what her "allies" are saying at some point because I doubt that the US Government could at the same time be controlled by both Jihadists and Jews.

36 JRCMYP  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:11:02pm

re: #2 MandyManners

Speaking of terrorism, ...

Mandy those photographs really bring home how the airplanes were used as gigantic bombs.

37 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:11:02pm

re: #32 Boondock St. Bender

funny that he doesn't claim to be one...he's president whats to stop him from coming out?

I was being extremely sarcastic...

38 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:11:31pm

re: #20 EmmmieG

That's just what her cat wants her to think.

Ceiling cat?

39 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:11:44pm

re: #23 torrentprime

Up for the "TEH NOAMS". That's awesome regardless of context.

Thanks!

40 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:11:52pm

re: #37 TampaKnight

oopps....i need more coffee....lol

41 Soap_Man  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:12:14pm

re: #37 TampaKnight

I was being extremely sarcastic...

I would like to introduce you to the sarc tag, seen here:

/

It can be your friend.

42 Kragar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:12:18pm

re: #29 go_usa

I thought US government was controlled by gays . Maybe its the jihadist gays

The lonliest Jihadi. "Are you there Allah? Its me, Mohammed Abu Capote."

43 JRCMYP  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:12:25pm

re: #9 wrenchwench

"Intellectual dominance" happens in her world when her cat walks into the room.

Too bad I can't rec you more than once :)

44 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:12:26pm

re: #26 Boondock St. Bender

TEH NOAMS R SPIEING N MEEE

of the chomsky variety?

U NO IT

45 cliffster  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:12:31pm

Hehe, awesome. Controlled at the highest levels. Pamela Geller for president!

46 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:12:51pm

re: #37 TampaKnight

I was being extremely sarcastic...

Sarc tags, man! Sarc tags!
XD

47 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:12:53pm

re: #40 Boondock St. Bender

oopps...i need more coffee...lol

I still remember that town hall where McCain had to cut off the woman claiming Obama was a Muslim....sad he had to bitch smack his own audience.

48 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:13:23pm

re: #29 go_usa

I thought US government was controlled by gays . Maybe its the jihadist gays

Well, we control the media. And we enjoyed acceptance and found inspiration in Nazi Germany. I guess the US government was bound to fall.

49 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:13:30pm

re: #36 JRCMYP

Mandy those photographs really bring home how the airplanes were used as gigantic bombs.

We need to never forget.

50 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:13:32pm

re: #31 Slumbering Behemoth

He was also born in Kenya.
*oof*

In Kenya they've got lions.

51 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:14:17pm

re: #47 TampaKnight

That is what a leader should not be afraid to do though.so sad that that is lost on the current craziness.

52 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:14:22pm

re: #31 Slumbering Behemoth

He was also born in Kenya.
*oof*

Alpha. Draconis.
Sheesh, don't you all know anything!?!?!?!~
/

53 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:14:30pm

re: #38 MandyManners

Ceiling cat?

I was thinking her cat was aligned a little more closely with basement cat.

54 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:14:48pm

New 9/11 photos from the NYPD.
It looks like the first tower fell right on building 7.

55 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:15:09pm

It is a shame to see Pamela get increasingly hysterical, though I must say I never saw her as otherwise, the evidence was there from the start.

56 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:15:21pm

re: #53 EmmmieG

I was thinking her cat was aligned a little more closely with basement cat.

There's a basement cat?

57 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:15:23pm

OT - Against my better judgement, I got the car out, made it to the local bar/liquor store, had a beer and got a bottle of something good. No word yet on work tomorrow, but I have a feeling I'll be off again.

58 cliffster  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:15:28pm

Pam Geller needs to drink some Power Thirst

59 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:15:31pm

re: #49 MandyManners

We need to never forget.

Do you genuinely think anyone here would, or could?

60 JRCMYP  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:15:54pm

re: #29 go_usa

I thought US government was controlled by gays . Maybe its the jihadist gays

Jihadist gay garden NOAMS.

61 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:15:59pm

re: #57 Mad Al-Jaffee

OT - Against my better judgement, I got the car out, made it to the local bar/liquor store, had a beer and got a bottle of something good. No word yet on work tomorrow, but I have a feeling I'll be off again.

Oh, you will be no matter what.

62 Summer Seale  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:16:12pm

Ok, I have to cheer everyone up:

63 brookly red  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:16:34pm

I can't buy in to the idea that TMB controls our government, not even close. But they are who they are & do deserve a bit of watching.

64 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:16:42pm

re: #56 MandyManners

There's a basement cat?

Yes.

65 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:16:55pm

re: #56 MandyManners

There's a basement cat?

Haff U not hurd?

66 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:17:13pm

re: #64 Varek Raith

Yes.

YIKES!

67 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:17:24pm

re: #61 MandyManners

Oh, you will be no matter what.

We'll see tomorrow.

68 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:17:28pm

re: #56 MandyManners

There's a basement cat?

Fear teh basement cat. He haz teh cutes.

[Link: icanhascheezburger.com...]

69 SixDegrees  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:17:31pm
The Muslim Brotherhood Controls Every Agency of the US Government

No, that can't be right. The Family controls every agency of the US government.

Or is it the Bilderbergers?

Or the Illuminati?

Whatever. We oughta have a cage match with contestants from all these uber-powerful overlords, and decide once and for all who gets to wear that giant gold buckle that comes with victory.

70 webevintage  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:17:32pm

re: #56 MandyManners

There's a basement cat?

Of course there is.
There must always be a balance.

71 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:17:32pm

re: #65 Slumbering Behemoth

Haff U not hurd?

YIKES AGAIN!

72 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:17:34pm

re: #56 MandyManners

There's a basement cat?

Basement Cat vs. Ceiling Cat

73 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:18:20pm

re: #64 Varek Raith

TMTA!

74 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:18:22pm

Chicken's done roasting. bbl

75 webevintage  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:18:33pm

And that is one big fucking tinhat of crazy Geller is wearing...

76 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:19:03pm

Last time I checked the US was sending billions to the Brotherhood's arch enemy, Israel.

77 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:19:43pm

re: #25 TampaKnight

Oh yea, but he had a crazy Christian preacher for 20 years, so which is it?

78 brookly red  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:19:48pm

re: #69 SixDegrees

No, that can't be right. The Family controls every agency of the US government.

Or is it the Bilderbergers?

Or the Illuminati?

Whatever. We oughta have a cage match with contestants from all these uber-powerful overlords, and decide once and for all who gets to wear that giant gold buckle that comes with victory.

/I am the Dollar... address me on your knees.

79 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:20:02pm

I'll go with Morbo's opinion here...

Morbo

80 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:20:05pm

re: #58 cliffster

Pam Geller needs to drink some Power Thirst


[Video]

It's what plants crave!

81 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:20:17pm

re: #75 webevintage

Using the words Geller and crazy in the same sentence seems kind of redundent.

82 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:20:24pm

re: #75 webevintage

And that is one big fucking tinhat of crazy Geller is wearing...

I had someone tell me the other day that Pam was one of the best investigative journalists on the internet, citing RB as a case in point. I wasn't sure if I should laugh, cry or get angry at such an assertion.

83 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:20:30pm

re: #76 Mosh

Last time I checked the US was sending billions to the Brotherhood's arch enemy, Israel.

That only proves how clever the conspirators are, and how deep teh conspiracy goes!

/tinfoil logic: all evidence to the contrary is always only ever further evidence of just how clever Teh Enemy actually is!

84 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:20:34pm

re: #77 marjoriemoon

he was being sarcastic....he forgot the /

85 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:21:35pm

re: #76 Mosh

Thats just what they ant you th think!!!!11!eleventy!

86 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:21:41pm

re: #84 Boondock St. Bender

he was being sarcastic...he forgot the /

I'm not so sure about that, but let's find out!

87 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:21:45pm

re: #81 Mosh

Using the words Geller and crazy in the same sentence seems kind of redundent.

redundant

(I miss Cato already)

88 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:21:52pm

What's wrong with that woman?
(And no, I don't mean ' that a decent stylist couldn't fix '...but that too)...

89 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:21:54pm

re: #84 Boondock St. Bender

he was being sarcastic...he forgot the /

I thought my post was insane enough to pass the sarcasm test without the "/".

Lol.

90 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:21:56pm

re: #85 Boondock St. Bender

want>>>>grrrr pimf

91 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:22:03pm

re: #77 marjoriemoon

Oh yea, but he had a crazy Christian preacher for 20 years, so which is it?

Pfft. The crazy Christian pastor was just for show. He's really a scary seekrit Muslin terrarist commie pinko socialist who'll sell us all out to please the Illuminati and the liberal gay elites.

////

92 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:22:16pm

re: #86 marjoriemoon

I'm not so sure about that, but let's find out!

Yes, I was. I've said it 3 times now.

93 brookly red  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:22:22pm

re: #76 Mosh

Last time I checked the US was sending billions to the Brotherhood's arch enemy, Israel.

I don't know for sure, but if we are talking arms I think they pay cash... I could be wrong.

94 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:22:26pm

re: #87 Bagua
Where'd he go?

95 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:22:48pm

re: #91 Lidane

Pfft. The crazy Christian pastor was just for show. He's really a scary seekrit Muslin terrarist commie pinko socialist who'll sell us all out to please the Illuminati and the liberal gay elites.

///

Well, see, I didn't need a sarc tag with that one.

96 Political Atheist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:23:00pm

re: #10 Vambo

Ask the Jewish people why they keep Auschwitz intact. Why they have the photo essay at the memorial. Because in a few years some jerk is going to do some bogus revisionist study about how GWB really blew therm up. The evidence will put the lie to the lie.

97 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:23:14pm

re: #71 MandyManners

I can haz minyons?

98 Political Atheist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:23:34pm

re: #35 Summer

Hah. You win the thread!

99 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:23:38pm

re: #92 TampaKnight

Yes, I was. I've said it 3 times now.

Sometimes it's hard to tell.

100 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:23:45pm

re: #94 tradewind

Where'd he go?

He mentioned he was having trouble accessing the internet and would no longer be able to spend time with us here. This made me very sad as I value him writings greatly.

101 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:24:14pm

re: #95 marjoriemoon

Well, see, I didn't need a sarc tag with that one.

I just had to be sure. Heh. You can never tell who might be lurking around here. ;)

102 cliffster  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:24:20pm

Don't pick on Pammy. Just because you don't understand her genius doesn't mean you should be a meanie to her.

l8r

103 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:24:28pm

re: #92 TampaKnight

some of the folks are going to see the first entry and resond immediatly,then see the / intention later....don't worry we got your back....lol

104 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:24:46pm
That is why you do not hear Muslims calling out for the violence prescribed in the Qur’an to be expunged.

In contrast to the vast groundswell of Christians and Jews calling for the violent bits in the Bible to be expunged!/

And if there was, you'd be stoutly supporting them - and not calling them traitors to their people/faith or anything like that - wouldn't you? Yeah, nice try Pammy.

105 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:25:29pm

re: #83 iceweasel

Pump billions into the Middle East's military giant which grinds terrorist groups under its heal.

Link 1

and
Link 2

Link 2 also highlights their hatred towards Israel and thus the US.

106 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:26:11pm

re: #96 Rightwingconspirator

Ask the Jewish people why they keep Auschwitz intact. Why they have the photo essay at the memorial. Because in a few years some jerk is going to do some bogus revisionist study about how GWB really blew therm up. The evidence will put the lie to the lie.

I have to say, I'm disturbed about the falling bodies too. I can't look at some of the Holocaust pictures either. I've been to Yad VaShem (Israel's Holocaust Memorial where the ashes are kept), because I thought it was important to go, but I can't look at the pictures otherwise. It's too much for me in both cases.

107 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:26:18pm

We should all give pammy a big hello....cause you know she's gonna ck this thread. HI PAMMY!(now go take your medication)

108 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:26:22pm

Pedants are now added to the LGF endangered species list.

I'll do my best to pick up some of the slack but Cato is impossible to replace.

109 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:26:25pm

re: #10 Vambo
No. It needs to be kept alive in people's minds, because otherwise we drift right back to the mentality that existed before that day, when we were invincible, and it Could Never Happen Here.
The media's utter hypocrisy in not showing people diving out of buildings in desperation is pitiful, because they show no such respect for the victims of other disasters that are not as ' politically charged '.

110 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:26:29pm

BREAKING NEWS: Combining the chemicals in hair spray and spray-on tanning causes delusional paranoid schizophrenia.

111 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:26:59pm

re: #110 Slumbering Behemoth

BREAKING NEWS: Combining the chemicals in hair spray and spray-on tanning causes delusional paranoid schizophrenia.

Oh Shit!

112 brookly red  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:27:02pm

re: #100 Bagua

He mentioned he was having trouble accessing the internet and would no longer be able to spend time with us here. This made me very sad as I value him writings greatly.

let us hope that the public library is still hard wired...

113 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:27:04pm

re: #100 Bagua
Yeah, leaving aside his pathology re Palin, he is/was a kick. I hope he gets back soon as well.

114 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:27:36pm

re: #108 Bagua

What happened to Cato?

115 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:27:47pm

re: #110 Slumbering Behemoth
Well, so much for Arianna......

116 Kragar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:28:22pm

re: #114 Slumbering Behemoth

What happened to Cato?

Caesar finally caught up with him.

117 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:29:02pm

re: #110 Slumbering Behemoth

That would explain Orly Taitz.

118 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:29:05pm

re: #115 tradewind

She never looked like she had much of a spray tan to me. Maybe we're thinking of different people.

119 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:29:44pm

re: #117 Mosh

I think she has the opposite of a spray tan.

120 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:29:45pm

re: #116 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Caesar finally caught up with him.

hehe

Monetary problems. I'd be willing to take up a pledge to keep him with internet access. Some of us talked about that last night.

121 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:29:45pm

re: #110 Slumbering Behemoth

BREAKING NEWS: Combining the chemicals in hair spray and spray-on tanning causes delusional paranoid schizophrenia.

I recall when huffing was popular at my boarding school. When one of the students told a teacher that "A giant clam had thrown up on his bed" the administration clocked onto the problem and we had an assembly after that student was expelled.

It was quite horrible, and I admit to being an informant on my peers, although not naming names.

122 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:30:21pm

re: #114 Slumbering Behemoth

What happened to Cato?

Here's what he said:

Cato the Elder2/09/2010 5:02:48 pm PST

Just to let you all know, I will soon be losing my internet account for lack of funds.

It's been real, but don't expect to hear from me in the foreseeable future.

123 jaunte  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:30:59pm
The Muslim Brotherhood groups in the United States control the narrative. They control information and how it is processed at senior levels of the CIA, the FBI, the Pentagon, and the various branches of the military.


Statements like this make me wonder how much farther her readers and supporters are willing to follow Geller down the crazy hole.

124 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:31:36pm

re: #122 reine.de.tout

Thanks for the heads-up, dear. He can always pop by a library for the Palinmania threads.

125 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:32:07pm

I think Geller has found Alex Jones' newest obsession.

126 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:32:26pm

re: #124 Slumbering Behemoth

Thanks for the heads-up, dear. He can always pop by a library for the Palinmania threads.

yeah.
Also, if he had a laptop with wireless - he can find a free wi-fi spot somewhere. Lots of local coffee shops have free wi-fi. I hope he does.

127 Political Atheist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:32:42pm

re: #106 marjoriemoon

I totally understand. I had this long talk with some pro photographer pals. These are commercial and art shooters, not journalists or war photographers. I was thinking forget the camera, its disrespectful. But I was then convinced that witnessing is the photographers job. I mean if you can render aid do so. But if you are there unable to help, get the images. Enable history.

128 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:32:47pm

re: #123 jaunte

Statements like this make me wonder how much farther her readers and supporters are willing to follow Geller down the crazy hole.

Pretty damned far, unfortunately. I saw someone just yesterday in the comments over at AmSpec pimping her "Obama is the son of Malcolm X!11!" garbage.

There's a deep vein of crazy out there and Pammy is merely one of the people tapping into it.

129 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:33:03pm

Cato will be back. No doubt about it.
:)

130 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:33:46pm

re: #128 iceweasel

Pretty damned far, unfortunately. I saw someone just yesterday in the comments over at AmSpec pimping her "Obama is the son of Malcolm X!11!" garbage.

There's a deep vein of crazy out there and Pammy is merely one of the people tapping into it.

Revision: it was American Thinker-- the latest Cashill bullshit over there.

131 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:34:05pm

re: #114 Slumbering Behemoth

What happened to Cato?

On the thread last night he informed us of the departure and sounded despondent. It is upsetting as he adds a great deal to the community, especially in areas of my personal fascination such as literacy and punctuation.

I feel very alone now, we are growing short of cranky old perfectionists.

132 Martinsmithy  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:34:19pm

She's making Joseph McCarthy look like he was positively sane by comparison.

Perhaps she's talking about:

"Abdullah" Geithner
"Sayid" Napolitano
"Muhammad Ali" Sotomayor
and, of course,
Barack HUSSEIN abu Malcolm X fils Obama

133 brookly red  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:34:20pm

re: #126 reine.de.tout

yeah.
Also, if he had a laptop with wireless - he can find a free wi-fi spot somewhere. Lots of local coffee shops have free wi-fi. I hope he does.

It is sad that the free world may have to rely on Burger King to keep the lines of communication open.

134 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:34:26pm

re: #128 iceweasel

There's a deep vein of crazy out there and Pammy is merely one of the people tapping into oozing out of it.

Altered that for you.

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:35:21pm

re: #23 torrentprime

Up for the "TEH NOAMS". That's awesome regardless of context.

Noam Chomsky!

136 What, me worry?  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:35:36pm

re: #127 Rightwingconspirator

I totally understand. I had this long talk with some pro photographer pals. These are commercial and art shooters, not journalists or war photographers. I was thinking forget the camera, its disrespectful. But I was then convinced that witnessing is the photographers job. I mean if you can render aid do so. But if you are there unable to help, get the images. Enable history.

Indeed. I'm not saying the pictures should not be taken (am I?). I just can't look at them.

137 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:35:59pm

re: #134 wrenchwench

Altered that for you.

Thanks. Pammy is kind of a geyser of crazy, though. Old Faithful indeed.

138 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:35:59pm

re: #6 iceweasel

There's been a generic wingnut wardance in the crazysphere because the Pentagon report on the failures at Fort Hood didn't include enough Islam-bashing.


More like ' many people are frustrated and angered by the pentagon's stubborn refusal to admit and present the facts that that a) radical Islam and jihadist thinking was a major factor in the attack and that b) political correctness and squeamishness by top brass to call the doctor on his radicalism allowed him to carry out the murders.

139 Kragar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:36:04pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

Noam Chomsky!

Thats Gnome Chompsky.

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:36:35pm

re: #35 Summer

The shrieking harpy might want to review what her "allies" are saying at some point because I doubt that the US Government could at the same time be controlled by both Jihadists and Jews.

Jewish Jihadists!

141 jaunte  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:37:14pm

re: #128 iceweasel

Maybe next she and Cashill will get together and track down the Muslim FBI/CIA/Defense moles who were the real writers of 'Dreams from my Father'.

142 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:37:18pm

re: #132 Martinsmithy

Boycott Hollywood and all the Commies! McCarthy and John Wayne where right!

I'm being sarcastic. Also, if you want to here the crazy woman screaming that line then go to 49 seconds in.

143 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:37:30pm

re: #118 Slumbering Behemoth
Maybe it was makeup. But you can't argue with the hairspray.
It always intrigues me how someone who has been living here for most of her life has lost not a drop of her Greek accent.

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:37:53pm

re: #47 TampaKnight

I still remember that town hall where McCain had to cut off the woman claiming Obama was a Muslim...sad he had to bitch smack his own audience.

But I was damn happy that he did so. That took more guts than some people in politics have. They know who they are.

145 Kragar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:38:39pm

Trying to remember all the old MST3k riffs when a movie character would say something like "Call me crazy if you like but..."

The only 2 I can remember are:
"I've got grasshoppers taped to my back."
"I've replaced my toes with grapes."

I swear they had more.

146 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:38:40pm

re: #138 tradewind

More like ' many people are frustrated and angered by the pentagon's stubborn refusal to admit and present the facts that that a) radical Islam and jihadist thinking was a major factor in the attack and that b) political correctness and squeamishness by top brass to call the doctor on his radicalism allowed him to carry out the murders.

Ah yes, the 'political correctness' meme. That's also been popular.
The Pentagon was, rightly, looking at specific failures in the chain of command and oversight. They weren't in the business of writing a polemic on Islam or 'pc'. And rightly so.
Besides, we have wingnuts to do that elsewhere.

147 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:39:32pm

re: #133 brookly red
Or he could just move to PDX..... the entire town is wif-fi'd.... or so they profess. I didn't find it to be true in many places.

148 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:39:51pm

re: #47 TampaKnight

I still remember that town hall where McCain had to cut off the woman claiming Obama was a Muslim...sad he had to bitch smack his own audience.

I wasn't able to hear every word the woman mumbled, but McCain's response to "He's an Arab" was, "No, he's a decent family man." Like Arabs can't be. :(

149 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:39:52pm

re: #145 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"I actually prefer New Coke" was one.

150 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:40:12pm

re: #47 TampaKnight

I still remember that town hall where McCain had to cut off the woman claiming Obama was a Muslim...sad he had to bitch smack his own audience.

Didn't he get booed for that? I think I remember that happening.

I thought it was one of his better moments on the campaign trail, but it was still sad that he had to try and dial back that whole "He's a MUSLIM!" meme during what should have been a routine campaign rally.

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:40:24pm

re: #76 Mosh

Last time I checked the US was sending billions to the Brotherhood's arch enemy, Israel.

Also the government of Egypt, which routinely jails and tortures them, so it does seem sort of odd.

OMG.

The Brotherhood has infiltrated the U.S. govt. in order to destroy the Brotherhood! They are that diabolical!

152 Kragar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:40:34pm

re: #149 Obdicut

"I actually prefer New Coke" was one.

Thats just sick.

153 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:41:23pm

re: #130 iceweasel

Revision: it was American Thinker-- the latest Cashill bullshit over there.

The only person I have ever read at American Thinker is Clarice F..
She showed me great kindness several years ago when I started Blogging.
We may not always agree on Politics.. But I respect her..And she has a heart of Gold

154 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:41:48pm

re: #104 Jimmah

In contrast to the vast groundswell of Christians and Jews calling for the violent bits in the Bible to be expunged!/

And if there was, you'd be stoutly supporting them - and not calling them traitors to their people/faith or anything like that - wouldn't you? Yeah, nice try Pammy.

Oddly enough, those aren't the bits the Conservative Bible people seem to want to edit out.

155 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:42:25pm

re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist

Oddly enough, those aren't the bits the Conservative Bible people seem to want to edit out.

Yeah, the other Red parts.....
:/

156 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:42:48pm

Musical interlude - Lush - "Deluxe"

157 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:43:29pm

re: #153 HoosierHoops

The only person I have ever read at American Thinker is Clarice F..
She showed me great kindness several years ago when I started Blogging.
We may not always agree on Politics.. But I respect her..And she has a heart of Gold

I don't know that person, but I'm certain I ran across some good things at AmThinker years ago.

Unfortunately most of my recent knowledge of them (last 18 months or so) is from the platform they've given Cashill for his crazy about 'Bill Ayers wrote Obama's books!'
Plus now they give space to Pammycakes too, so...

158 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:44:08pm

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

Also the government of Egypt, which routinely jails and tortures them, so it does seem sort of odd.

OMG.

The Brotherhood has infiltrated the U.S. govt. in order to destroy the Brotherhood! They are that diabolical!

And that my dear Cato is why you'll never be a great detective. It's so obvious that it can not possibly be a trap!

159 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:44:29pm

re: #132 Martinsmithy

She's making Joseph McCarthy look like he was positively sane by comparison.

Perhaps she's talking about:

"Abdullah" Geithner
"Sayid" Napolitano
"Muhammad Ali" Sotomayor
and, of course,
Barack HUSSEIN abu Malcolm X fils Obama

This does scare me. These people are really crazy (Pam et al, not Geithner et al.) and they're gaining more traction than people this dumb and crazy should be allowed to gain in a sane society.

160 darthstar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:44:30pm

This is the only logical reply I can think of for Ms Geller

at least it's not a facepalm

or maybe this is better...

161 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:44:43pm

re: #146 iceweasel
Oh, please. Just because Londonistan has surrendered to the illusion doesn't mean we should here. Any metro police department would have included more about the doctor's motivation than did that airbrushed report.
And it was not ' wingnuts ' who pointed it out..... unless you consider people such as John McCain , former navy sec John Lehman, and Veterans' Affairs Sec Togo West ' wingnuts'.

162 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:46:31pm

re: #160 darthstar

This is the only logical reply I can think of for Ms Geller

at least it's not a facepalm

or maybe this is better...

Heh.
My response to Pam.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:46:40pm

re: #148 torrentprime

I wasn't able to hear every word the woman mumbled, but McCain's response to "He's an Arab" was, "No, he's a decent family man." Like Arabs can't be. :(

True, but I will give him some leeway there--he was thinking on his feet in a bizarre situation, and I think he was responding to what she meant, rather than what she was actually saying.

In such a situation I think I myself might cry, so I give McCain the benefit of the doubt.

164 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:48:36pm

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but I will give him some leeway there--he was thinking on his feet in a bizarre situation, and I think he was responding to what she meant, rather than what she was actually saying.

In such a situation I think I myself might cry, so I give McCain the benefit of the doubt.

Fair enough. I wasn't quite ready to condemn him for it anyway (as has been noted, he did try to counteract the crazy), and crying is frankly a much more logical response.

165 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:49:30pm

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

Well-put. I'd probably just throw the microphone away and go home.

166 brookly red  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:51:06pm

Geller is still nuts. The MB is still evil. Oh well.

167 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:52:11pm

re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist

Oddly enough, those aren't the bits the Conservative Bible people seem to want to edit out.

Of course not - they're the 'best bits'. Violence can be good as long as it is commanded by YOUR God and not THEIRS.

168 darthstar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:52:33pm

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but I will give him some leeway there--he was thinking on his feet in a bizarre situation, and I think he was responding to what she meant, rather than what she was actually saying.

In such a situation I think I myself might cry, so I give McCain the benefit of the doubt.

I'll give him some leeway, but if he'd really wanted to come out of that town hall looking like a stand-up guy, he would have addressed the crowd as a whole and said, "My opponent is a US-born citizen. These people who claim he's not are simply using his race and his father's country of origin as an excuse to smear him unfairly, and we should be better than that." THAT I would have respected. But it would have cost McCain a few votes, and he wasn't willing to go that far. Barack Obama, on the other hand, hushed his crowds when they booed the mention of McCain/Palin, telling them it wasn't necessary or productive. He also defended the rights of hecklers at his rallies to have their say.

169 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:52:37pm

re: #161 tradewind

Oh, please. Just because Londonistan has surrendered to the illusion doesn't mean we should here.

Would you be referring to London England with that cute little nickname?
Yes, the UK really knows nothing about terrorism, and they really don't take it as seriously as the US.
Please.

170 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:52:50pm

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist
Yes, the context was clear.

171 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:54:07pm

re: #157 iceweasel

I don't know that person, but I'm certain I ran across some good things at AmThinker years ago.

Unfortunately most of my recent knowledge of them (last 18 months or so) is from the platform they've given Cashill for his crazy about 'Bill Ayers wrote Obama's books!'
Plus now they give space to Pammycakes too, so...


She is from justoneminute blog

Remember last summer..It was 6am and I was at the fishing Cabin.. And I trashed Tom for his Birther crap.. I called him out here..
I'm not welcome back and have been blocked...
The only blog in the world that won't let me post..
I think I hurt his feelings with facts... You were wrong Tom.. Come back from the edge...I'm not bitter.. I still love ya..You were just wrong...
Somebody has got to save the Conservatives on the Net...
/Got a great story to tell you

172 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:54:18pm

re: #169 iceweasel

It's not like London has been under threat of terrorist bombings for a long period of time or anything!

er...

173 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:55:04pm

re: #161 tradewind

Any metro police department would have included more about the doctor's motivation than did that airbrushed report.

Airbrushed! So the Pentagon is so worried about Muslim feeling that it doctored a report - a report on US military deaths - to avoid making anyone feel bad? The Pentagon treats its soldiers' lives that cheaply? Just want to make sure I understand your contention.

174 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:55:05pm

re: #161 tradewind

Oh, please. Just because Londonistan has surrendered to the illusion...

Londonistan? lol

Been reading a little too much Melanie Phillips I think.

175 darthstar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:56:21pm

re: #161 tradewind

Oh, please. Just because Londonistan has surrendered to the illusion doesn't mean we should here.

Hi Pam!
/

176 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:56:40pm

re: #174 Jimmah

Londonistan? lol

Been reading a little too much Melanie Phillips I think.

Well, it's not like no one in America uses the convention...
[Link: www.debbieschlussel.com...]

There's a star to follow!

/

177 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:58:15pm

re: #176 torrentprime

Well, it's not like no one in America uses the convention...
[Link: www.debbieschlussel.com...]

There's a star to follow!

/

"Detroitistan"? Cringe!

178 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:58:35pm

I'd gather up these crazies and put them on an island. Then, rename the island to 'Absurdistan'.
lolz.

179 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:59:04pm

re: #171 HoosierHoops

She is from justoneminute blog

Remember last summer..It was 6am and I was at the fishing Cabin.. And I trashed Tom for his Birther crap.. I called him out here..
I'm not welcome back and have been blocked...
The only blog in the world that won't let me post..
I think I hurt his feelings with facts... You were wrong Tom.. Come back from the edge...I'm not bitter.. I still love ya..You were just wrong...
Somebody has got to save the Conservatives on the Net...
/Got a great story to tell you

I remember that! We talked about it! I used to like Tom too a couple of years ago, until he went full Birther. Such a disappointment. He's one of the people caught up in Obama-hate now.

The only person who has ever banned me is Megan McArdle at the Atlantic, but I'm in good company there. :) Poor McMegan doesn't like people calling her out on her glibertarian bullshit, or factchecking her, or reminding people of the various things she wrote as "Jane Galt" in the past (such as advocating that antiwar protesters be hit in the head with a 2 by 4).

Email me your story!
love, iDub

180 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:59:51pm

re: #169 iceweasel
I would submit that the UK is now regretting in leisure the decisions made in haste a few years back that radical islamists had feelings that should not be hurt by insensitive measures such as taking steps to control the indoctrination of youth by murder-inciting mullahs, and by electing mayors ( Red Ken, anyone?) who supported them.

181 jaunte  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:59:54pm

re: #178 Varek Raith

They're getting there on their own via land bridge from Slipperyslopia.

182 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:00:09pm
not to put too fine a point on it,

Say I'm the only bee in your bonnet, make a little birdhouse in your soul!
-They Might Be Giants

183 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:00:16pm

re: #176 torrentprime

Well, it's not like no one in America uses the convention...
There's a star to follow!

/

Shine on, you crazy Muslim-hating diamonds....

184 Gus  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:00:47pm

re: #178 Varek Raith

I'd gather up these crazies and put them on an island. Then, rename the island to 'Absurdistan'.
lolz.

Can we have one in Outer Wingnuttia?

185 brookly red  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:00:54pm

re: #172 Obdicut

It's not like London has been under threat of terrorist bombings for a long period of time or anything!

er...

/ Jerseycitystan, is so hard to pronounce...

186 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:01:03pm

re: #184 Gus 802

Can we have one in Outer Wingnuttia?

Yes.

187 Diane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:01:04pm

"In business or in life, don't follow the wagon tracks too closely." H.J. Brown, Jr.

188 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:01:31pm

re: #173 torrentprime
No, it did not ' doctor ' the report.... on the contrary, it under- treated it.
Deep in denial, maybe from a sense of guilt that they failed to protect their own.

189 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:01:47pm

re: #180 tradewind

I'd submit you don't know a damn thing about the UK, and still less about its terrorism measures.
The US still has a lot to learn from the UK in that respect, and frankly I've been shocked the US hasn't picked up the slack even now.

190 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:01:55pm

re: #178 Varek Raith

I'd gather up these crazies and put them on an island. Then, rename the island to 'Absurdistan'.
lolz.

I declare that Texas shall henceforth be known as "Jesusistan".

191 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:03:25pm

re: #188 tradewind

No, it did not ' doctor ' the report... on the contrary, it under- treated it.
Deep in denial, maybe from a sense of guilt that they failed to protect their own.

Well, as long as we're not mind-reading... (eyeroll)

192 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:03:26pm

Hmmm, Satanistan....heh.
;)

193 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:04:00pm

re: #192 Varek Raith

Stanistan??????

194 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:04:25pm

re: #174 Jimmah
Who's Melanie Phillips?
Sounds like someone out of Little Women, after marriage.

195 brookly red  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:04:26pm

re: #178 Varek Raith

I'd gather up these crazies and put them on an island. Then, rename the island to 'Absurdistan'.
lolz.

it would have to be New Absurdisant... Manhattan has that title already...

196 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:04:39pm

re: #193 Boondock St. Bender

Stanistan???

Yes, Satan is Stan.
/I amuse myself...
:)

197 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:05:12pm

re: #191 torrentprime
No mind reading necessary. Just the lips of the interns and other personnel who Hasan ' freaked the hell out ' ( their words).

198 darthstar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:05:39pm

re: #193 Boondock St. Bender

Stanistan???

Santanastan

199 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:06:01pm

re: #196 Varek Raith

and me as well! :-)

200 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:07:10pm

re: #179 iceweasel

I remember that! We talked about it! I used to like Tom too a couple of years ago, until he went full Birther. Such a disappointment. He's one of the people caught up in Obama-hate now.

The only person who has ever banned me is Megan McArdle at the Atlantic, but I'm in good company there. :) Poor McMegan doesn't like people calling her out on her glibertarian bullshit, or factchecking her, or reminding people of the various things she wrote as "Jane Galt" in the past (such as advocating that antiwar protesters be hit in the head with a 2 by 4).

Email me your story!
love, iDub

No let's tell it here for everybody.. A year ago there was a really popular Lizard here...Real religious Jew..Heck of a guy.. But he left here..We had emailed each other back in the day...His email got hacked today and he kept emailing me Viaga ads all day long from his email account.. Finally.. I had to email him.. What's up? What are you trying to say?
It was so funny...He was so sorry...
We said hello and goodbye but it was kind of like if you were Brad Pitt in the same room as Angela and Jennifer.. or maybe walking into an empty elevator with an ex..LOL

201 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:07:30pm

re: #197 tradewind

No mind reading necessary. Just the lips of the interns and other personnel who Hasan ' freaked the hell out ' ( their words).

Just to be pedantic all the way through (new year's resolution): The interns' and other personnel's lips told you there was a sense of guilt in the brass' heads? So they were mindreading, not you? Thanks for clearing that up.

202 Boondock St. Bender  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:08:13pm

re: #198 darthstar


Santanastan

the national anthem would be Black magic woman!...lol

203 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:08:58pm

re: #180 tradewind

I would submit that the UK is now regretting in leisure the decisions made in haste a few years back that radical islamists had feelings that should not be hurt by insensitive measures such as taking steps to control the indoctrination of youth by murder-inciting mullahs, and by electing mayors ( Red Ken, anyone?) who supported them.

The first part is fantasy; it was always official policy to take steps to control radical indoctrination, however imperfectly such measures may have been implemented. As for Livingstons pandering to certain faux-moderate Islamic extremists - that's not what got him into office; furthermore he hasn't been Mayor for years now.

204 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:09:22pm

re: #200 HoosierHoops

No let's tell it here for everybody.. A year ago there was a really popular Lizard here...Real religious Jew..Heck of a guy.. But he left here..We had emailed each other back in the day...His email got hacked today and he kept emailing me Viaga ads all day long from his email account.. Finally.. I had to email him.. What's up? What are you trying to say?
It was so funny...He was so sorry...
We said hello and goodbye but it was kind of like if you were Brad Pitt in the same room as Angela and Jennifer.. or maybe walking into an empty elevator with an ex..LOL

That's weird. Someone here who is not a fan of mine at all recently sent me a link to a spam site promoting Viagra. You were cc'd on that email.
I wrote back and said, why are you emailing me spam sites? Never got any response.
Maybe it was a similar problem.

205 darthstar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:09:54pm

re: #202 Boondock St. Bender

Santanastan

the national anthem would be Black magic woman!...lol

Now that's an anthem I could get used to.

206 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:10:06pm

re: #191 torrentprime

Well, as long as we're not mind-reading... (eyeroll)


I would not necessarily use the words airburshed or doctored because they imply conscious intent. I do think they avoided even addressing the issue of his motivation or his religious beliefs. I would guess it was more an institutionalized fear of being politically incorrect. I think this does an injustice to true equal opportunity because it equates irrational adherence to rigid and extreme views with more rational diversity and differences of viewpoint. I don't claim to have any special incite, but most of the military folks I've talked to seem to see it that way.

207 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:11:17pm

Weary visitors


-Biram
208 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:11:48pm

re: #203 Jimmah
Righto.
And yes, I didn't say he was still there. Eventually, people get the joke.

209 brookly red  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:12:26pm

re: #205 darthstar

Now that's an anthem I could get used to.

btw, Carlos is quite Jesus guy...

210 darthstar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:13:50pm

re: #209 brookly red

btw, Carlos is quite Jesus guy...

I've met him...I like Carlos. His father has a mariachi band and plays at a Mexican restaurant in the North Bay regularly...Carlos will show up and grab a big fat acoustic and join in sometimes...

211 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:13:55pm

re: #206 Escaped Hillbilly
oops, insight not incite. Sometimes spellcheck aint enough.

212 Gus  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:13:59pm

re: #6 iceweasel

There's been a generic wingnut wardance in the crazysphere because the Pentagon report on the failures at Fort Hood didn't include enough Islam-bashing.
IMO this is the shrieking harpy's shriek-out to that crowd, as well as connecting up with the HUSSEIN OBAMA IZ A SEEKRIT MUSLIM TERRORIST crazypants meme.

While they're doing their little Anti-jihadit Fighting Keyboards Wardance™ they might want to look at the dates. The "Powerpoint presentation" is from 2007. Hasan also attended the counterterrorism conference in 2008. There were some rumblings from those close to Hasan well before 2009.

Yeah, make note of the years. One deep thinking commentator at Big Wingnut even said something about "Obama Bin Laden." There's no getting through simple minded atavistic reactionaries.

213 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:15:08pm

re: #206 Escaped Hillbilly

I would not necessarily use the words airburshed or doctored because they imply conscious intent. I do think they avoided even addressing the issue of his motivation or his religious beliefs. I would guess it was more an institutionalized fear of being politically incorrect. I think this does an injustice to true equal opportunity because it equates irrational adherence to rigid and extreme views with more rational diversity and differences of viewpoint. I don't claim to have any special incite, but most of the military folks I've talked to seem to see it that way.

I can/could accept that take, as it avoids the "liberals don't want to hurt muslims' feelings" crap. The articles I read, however, mentioned this point specifically, in that regardless of the inspiration, internal radicalization needs to be caught and acted upon far, far better than they did here. The particular brand of crazy fueling the radical is irrelevant - whether it's Christian or Muslim (or secular) in origin. That was the point, not an error.

214 brookly red  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:16:32pm

re: #210 darthstar

I've met him...I like Carlos. His father has a mariachi band and plays at a Mexican restaurant in the North Bay regularly...Carlos will show up and grab a big fat acoustic and join in sometimes...

cool, as long as you are alright with that...
I am OK with it too.

215 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:16:41pm

re: #208 tradewind

Righto.
And yes, I didn't say he was still there. Eventually, people get the joke.

That was a joke? Don't give up your day job, mate - you'll starve!

216 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:17:49pm

re: #201 torrentprime
Unsurprisingly, no, you didn't get my meaning, but no problem. By all means, carry on with the pedantry.... it totally suits you.

217 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:18:51pm

re: #204 iceweasel

That's weird. Someone here who is not a fan of mine at all recently sent me a link to a spam site promoting Viagra. You were cc'd on that email.
I wrote back and said, why are you emailing me spam sites? Never got any response.
Maybe it was a similar problem.

Yes it was a hacked email account...When I start Viaga spams from LGF2 I started getting pissed.. And had to email him...Kindly asking what was up?
I was ready to go off..
He was so embarrassed about it...
We wished each well ( Like sharing a cab with an ex..Have a good one! Get out fast!) and I laughed my ass-off and face palmed myself this afternoon..
Just weird..But funny..And awkward...
*wink*
/You probably told Jimmah I was on a CC for Viaga to you...

218 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:19:30pm

re: #216 tradewind

Unsurprisingly, no, you didn't get my meaning, but no problem. By all means, carry on with the pedantry... it totally suits you.

Your meaning? No, I (thankfully) didn't get that. All I got was the dodge.

219 palomino  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:22:06pm

re: #190 Jimmah

I declare that Texas shall henceforth be known as "Jesusistan".

On that note, could this map be America's future? Red/Blue states taken to logical extreme

220 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:24:01pm

re: #189 iceweasel

The UK is allowing thousands of known self-identified radical islamists to reside in their country. They are under "surveillance". They should be taken into custody and, if possible, deported.

221 brookly red  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:24:27pm

and with that I bid all a good night.

222 tradewind  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:25:51pm

re: #215 Jimmah
Not my joke. Theirs.

223 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:30:23pm

re: #220 sandbox

The UK is allowing thousands of known self-identified radical islamists to reside in their country. They are under "surveillance". They should be taken into custody and, if possible, deported.

Don't be stupid. You can't arrest people unless they have committed a crime. You can't just boot someones door in and shout "Oi! All you lot are too radical. Your nicked!"

Same goes for all the radical anti-abortionists in the states. Sure, they may be unhinged; they may fail to condemn the murder of Dr Tiller, for example - but we can't arrest them for thoughtcrime. We can only arrest them for actual crimes - and their planning.

224 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:33:01pm

re: #223 Jimmah

Don't be stupid. You can't arrest people unless they have committed a crime. You can't just boot someones door in and shout "Oi! All you lot are too radical. Your nicked!"

Heh. Why don't we boot in the doors of mosques while bawling Oi! and gnawing on a pork chop? Bring the k9 units too, and conduct all interviews down the pub.
Anything less is submission. ///

225 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:34:00pm

re: #223 Jimmah

The UK is at war with radical Islam. They do not have to allow enemy sympathizers freedom of movement within their country. I'm sorry you don't take the threat seriously.

226 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:34:06pm

re: #222 tradewind

Not my joke. Theirs.

So what's your point? That some people in a city in Britain once elected a Mayor who made some bad decisions? Doesn't exactly justify your 'Londonistan' comment, does it?

227 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:35:48pm

re: #224 iceweasel

Do you favor allowing self-identified radical islamists freedom of movement in the USA?

228 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:35:51pm

re: #225 sandbox

The UK is at war with radical Islam. They do not have to allow enemy sympathizers freedom of movement within their country. I'm sorry you don't take the threat seriously.

Downding for suggesting a British citizen 'doesn't take the threat seriously' because he objects to locking people up for thoughtcrime.

229 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:37:08pm

re: #225 sandbox

The UK is at war with radical Islam. They do not have to allow enemy sympathizers freedom of movement within their country. I'm sorry you don't take the threat seriously.

The US is at war with radicalism, too, and we saw how well American's rightwing responded to Homeland Security's even mentioning the possibility of problems.

The UK may not have the US' constitutional freedoms, but they're not about to imprison or deport thousands of people based on, "We think you're thinking illegal stuff."

230 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:37:10pm

re: #224 iceweasel

Heh. Why don't we boot in the doors of mosques while bawling Oi! and gnawing on a pork chop? Bring the k9 units too, and conduct all interviews down the pub.
Anything less is submission. ///

Heh - that whole booting the door in and shouting "Oi" is of course in tribute to one of your earlier, classic posts about police community relations in Britain :)

231 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:38:20pm

re: #227 sandbox

Do you favor allowing self-identified radical islamists freedom of movement in the USA?

Do you favour suspending our system of laws based on people's thoughts? Do you favour repealing the First Amendment in the US? How about the Fifth?

We can play the Stupid Rhetorical Questions game if you like, and I'll be just as good at constructing strawmen out of your posts as you would like to be at constructing them out of the posts of others.

232 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:39:10pm

re: #229 torrentprime

I have read reports in the UK press that the London police are keeping thousands of radical islamists in many cells under surveillance. I'm not making this up.

233 keloyd  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:39:20pm

re: #223 Jimmah

I can't disagree, but I can quibble.
1. Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime here, probably there too. A certain latitude in the definition of 'conspiracy' seems to be afoot. They've had plenty of experience with the IRA and have loyal citizens of various ethnicities who can spy better than our law enforcement who look a bit too much like extras form King of The Hill.
2. Freedom of speech does not extend to incitement of violence here, and their freedom of speech is less robust than ours. Deporting a troublesome imam for a really juicy sermon may be reasonable.

234 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:39:56pm

re: #225 sandbox

The UK is at war with radical Islam. They do not have to allow enemy sympathizers freedom of movement within their country. I'm sorry you don't take the threat seriously.

Just out of interest - what do you think of Robert Spencer?

235 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:41:13pm

re: #232 sandbox

I have read reports in the UK press that the London police are keeping thousands of radical islamists in many cells under surveillance. I'm not making this up.

Of course they are, and they're doing quite a good job at it too. They have decades of experience with dealing with terrorist cells and plots in the UK, predating 7/7 or 9-11. (IRA, hello?)

236 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:41:59pm

re: #2 MandyManners

Speaking of terrorism, ...

Did anyone else find a couple of these eerily, strangely beautiful? Remembering the original meaning of the words awesome and awful. Sends a chill up my spine. I hadn't had a chance to check those out earlier...thanks for posting. We all need a reminder of the fragility of life and the horrors of terrorism some times. It is not just some intellectual exercise.

237 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:42:32pm

re: #233 keloyd

I can't disagree, but I can quibble.
1. Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime here, probably there too. A certain latitude in the definition of 'conspiracy' seems to be afoot. They've had plenty of experience with the IRA and have loyal citizens of various ethnicities who can spy better than our law enforcement who look a bit too much like extras form King of The Hill.
2. Freedom of speech does not extend to incitement of violence here, and their freedom of speech is less robust than ours. Deporting a troublesome imam for a really juicy sermon may be reasonable.

They've already got various people, including Americans, on a no-fly list for hatespeech and the like.
For the record, I don't support the US adopting measures similar to the Brits w/r/t free speech.

238 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:43:34pm

re: #232 sandbox

I have read reports in the UK press that the London police are keeping thousands of radical islamists in many cells under surveillance. I'm not making this up.

Like I said, we don't arrest people for thoughtcrime. AND NEITHER DO YOU>

239 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:43:50pm

re: #232 sandbox

I have read reports in the UK press that the London police are keeping thousands of radical islamists in many cells under surveillance. I'm not making this up.

A good thing here no one objected to surveillance, then. You do remember you were advocating deportation or imprisonment, yes?

240 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:45:11pm

re: #235 iceweasel

Several of the individuals who carried out the 711 jihad attacks were also under surveillance. Alot of good that did to the poor souls blown up on London Transit. Deportation of radical islamists is not the death penalty. They can continue to be a radical islamist in their country of origin. What are you defending?

241 fizzlogic  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:45:53pm

I thought JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs did.

242 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:46:00pm

re: #237 iceweasel

They've already got various people, including Americans, on a no-fly list for hatespeech and the like.
For the record, I don't support the US adopting measures similar to the Brits w/r/t free speech.

Agree. Again, our constitutional protections are greater (one more reason the religious right's blather of "hate crimes laws will result in pastors dragged from their pulpits" is so stupid on its face), and I don't support any erosion of that.

243 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:46:18pm

re: #240 sandbox

Several of the individuals who carried out the 711 jihad attacks were also under surveillance. Alot of good that did to the poor souls blown up on London Transit. Deportation of radical islamists is not the death penalty. They can continue to be a radical islamist in their country of origin. What are you defending?

I'm defending the rule of law.

Exactly what are you defending? Apart from suspending it?

244 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:46:31pm

re: #240 sandbox

Several of the individuals who carried out the 711 jihad attacks were also under surveillance. Alot of good that did to the poor souls blown up on London Transit. Deportation of radical islamists is not the death penalty. They can continue to be a radical islamist in their country of origin. What are you defending?

freedom.

245 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:46:37pm

re: #223 Jimmah

Don't be stupid. You can't arrest people unless they have committed a crime. You can't just boot someones door in and shout "Oi! All you lot are too radical. Your nicked!"

Same goes for all the radical anti-abortionists in the states. Sure, they may be unhinged; they may fail to condemn the murder of Dr Tiller, for example - but we can't arrest them for thoughtcrime. We can only arrest them for actual crimes - and their planning.

Well I think you may be overstating it there. The truth is there are hate speech laws in the UK (similar to Canada as well) which are a limit on freedom of speech. It need not be conspiracy.

The Public Order Act includes the following provision:
A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—
(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

It is certainly true that words themselves would be sufficient to warrant a charge in many cases.

246 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:47:21pm

re: #242 torrentprime

Agree. Again, our constitutional protections are greater (one more reason the religious right's blather of "hate crimes laws will result in pastors dragged from their pulpits" is so stupid on its face), and I don't support any erosion of that.

Yeah. I'm super-pro First Amendment. Well, and the Bill of Rights generally of course, but the First is first for a reason.

247 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:47:27pm

re: #241 trendsurfer

I thought JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs did.

Did what?

248 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:47:47pm

re: #244 eastsider

Freedom, sure. Freedom to get murdered by the jihadis.

249 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:48:11pm

re: #233 keloyd

I can't disagree, but I can quibble.
1. Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime here, probably there too. A certain latitude in the definition of 'conspiracy' seems to be afoot. They've had plenty of experience with the IRA and have loyal citizens of various ethnicities who can spy better than our law enforcement who look a bit too much like extras form King of The Hill.
2. Freedom of speech does not extend to incitement of violence here, and their freedom of speech is less robust than ours. Deporting a troublesome imam for a really juicy sermon may be reasonable.

We do deport foreign imams for 'juicy' sermons if they contain incitements to violence. Incitement to violence is not protected under free speech. We have also prosecuted radical muslims for incitement at demos.

250 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:48:14pm

Government's closed again tomorrow. Have vodka, will not travel.

251 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:48:48pm

re: #248 sandbox

Freedom, sure. Freedom to get murdered by the jihadis.

Look, its cliche, and I've said it here before, but there's a certain quote that starts:

"Those who would trade in their freedom for protection . . ."

252 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:49:00pm

re: #236 Escaped Hillbilly

Did anyone else find a couple of these eerily, strangely beautiful? Remembering the original meaning of the words awesome and awful. Sends a chill up my spine. I hadn't had a chance to check those out earlier...thanks for posting. We all need a reminder of the fragility of life and the horrors of terrorism some times. It is not just some intellectual exercise.

No, I don't have enough psychic distance from the event yet. But, nine years on, I can abide people's artistic sensibilities having free rein.

I'd still shove a pie into Karlheinz Stockhausen's face for what he said, though, if he were still alive.

253 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:49:46pm

re: #245 Petero1818

Well I think you may be overstating it there. The truth is there are hate speech laws in the UK (similar to Canada as well) which are a limit on freedom of speech. It need not be conspiracy.

The Public Order Act includes the following provision:
A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—
(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

It is certainly true that words themselves would be sufficient to warrant a charge in many cases.

I never said or intended otherwise. See #249

254 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:49:54pm

re: #248 sandbox

Freedom, sure. Freedom to get murdered by the jihadis.

What rubbish. More of the typical crap about how if one defends the rule of law, and freedom, one is 'objectively pro-jihad'.

BTW, you haven't yet answered Jimmah's question about Spencer.

255 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:50:15pm

re: #179 iceweasel


The only person who has ever banned me is Megan McArdle at the Atlantic, but I'm in good company there. :) Poor McMegan doesn't like people calling her out on her glibertarian bullshit......

Oh crap, I just blew snot on the keyboard. Glibertarian. That's some funny shit. McCardle writes for homeschooled 11th graders. Banned by Megan, you should be paid for that honor.

256 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:50:20pm

re: #251 eastsider

Look, its cliche, and I've said it here before, but there's a certain quote that starts:

"Those who would trade in their freedom for protection . . ."

But- but - but if we don't trade in all of our freedoms, the Islamosocialfascicommunists won't stop hating us for them and will kill us all! We have to give them away!

257 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:50:39pm

re: #243 iceweasel

Why extend "rule of law" provisions to enemy combatants? BTW this is quite unpopular with the US public. They don't want enemy combatants to get civilian trials. The public is right.

258 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:52:20pm

re: #257 sandbox

Why extend "rule of law" provisions to enemy combatants? BTW this is quite unpopular with the US public. They don't want enemy combatants to get civilian trials. The public is right.

We've tried and convicted approx 195 terrorists in the civilian system. They are safely housed within that system.
The 'public' didn't have a problem when Bush or Clinton did it, and neither did the GOP. More baseless fearmongering.

259 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:52:40pm

re: #253 Jimmah

I never said or intended otherwise. See #249

I see 249, and understand your point. I am merely suggesting that what is a crime in UK is a different standard. IN UK it does not require incitement to violence, only incitement to hate on racial grounds.

260 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:53:38pm

re: #255 Jeff In Ohio

Oh crap, I just blew snot on the keyboard. Glibertarian. That's some funny shit. McCardle writes for homeschooled 11th graders. Banned by Megan, you should be paid for that honor.

Heh. Cheers. Yes, McMegan is a glibertarian. It appears I got under her skin quite a bit, but there were several of us who were fairly savage when she got the Atlantic gig.

Instahack is also a glibertarian imo.

261 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:53:57pm

re: #254 iceweasel

I didn't say you were pro-Jihad. Just naive about the intention of our enemies. BTW I do read Robert Spencer's website--jihad watch. Is that OK with you?

262 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:54:15pm

re: #257 sandbox

Why extend "rule of law" provisions to enemy combatants? BTW this is quite unpopular with the US public. They don't want enemy combatants to get civilian trials. The public is right.

enemy combatants is a subjective term. And do you have a poll to support your claim?

And to answer your question: Because we always have (see for example the shoe bomber under George Bush) and we're none the less well off for it.

And the rule of law is in the constitution. Nowhere in the constitution does it say that non-citizens arrested within the US are excluded from the Bill of Rights.

But yeah, except for historical examples of the process working, and it being included in the document that gives us our identity as Americans, I can't think of any other reasons.

263 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:54:30pm

re: #257 sandbox

Why extend "rule of law" provisions to enemy combatants? BTW this is quite unpopular with the US public. They don't want enemy combatants to get civilian trials. The public is right.

Perhaps the public was influenced by the irresponsible and unbalanced fear-mongering on the right that trying anyone in a civilian court would necessarily threaten nearby civilians? Just a guess!

Oh, and since a majority of the public wants a public option, I assume you think they're right about that?

264 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:56:01pm

re: #246 iceweasel

Yeah. I'm super-pro First Amendment. Well, and the Bill of Rights generally of course, but the First is first for a reason.

I got stopped in park in Toronto one night many years ago. The cop was putting his hands in my pockets, turning them out looking for something to bust me on and I said "What the fuck, you can't do that." and he and his partner started laughing "Fuck you eh, this isn't America." No doobt!

265 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:57:04pm

re: #257 sandbox

Why extend "rule of law" provisions to enemy combatants? BTW this is quite unpopular with the US public. They don't want enemy combatants to get civilian trials. The public is right.

It is regrettable that in the US, many believe that public opinion should have any bearing on the rule of law. To be quite honest, the US Judicial system is absurdly political and results in nothing more than Justice by Majority rule. The public is often dead wrong when it comes to proper application of legal principles.

266 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 4:58:44pm

re: #265 Petero1818

The example I always use for 'public opinion' is civil rights and the south.

267 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:00:02pm

re: #264 Jeff In Ohio

Actually, that would not, other than on one particular street in Vancouver, be permitted in Canada. They were having their way with you. They are not permitted to search without probable cause. Now as you know, probable cause is a pretty subjective term, but nonetheless, we have completely sufficient protections in Canada.

268 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:00:30pm

re: #240 sandbox

Several of the individuals who carried out the 711 jihad attacks were also under surveillance. Alot of good that did to the poor souls blown up on London Transit. Deportation of radical islamists is not the death penalty. They can continue to be a radical islamist in their country of origin. What are you defending?

The 711 attacks?

If you mean the 7/7 attacks - all 4 men involved in carrying out that attack were British citizens and could not have been deported.

269 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:01:22pm

re: #264 Jeff In Ohio

sounds more like a police abuse case than a civil rights case >

270 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:01:42pm

re: #268 Jimmah

The 711 attacks?

If you mean the 7/7 attacks - all 4 men involved in carrying out that attack were British citizens and could not have been deported.

Great points.

271 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:02:03pm

re: #261 sandbox

I didn't say you were pro-Jihad. Just naive about the intention of our enemies. BTW I do read Robert Spencer's website--jihad watch. Is that OK with you?

Robert Spencer is an extremist and a liar. But thanks for confirming what I suspected.

272 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:02:21pm

re: #262 eastsider

[Link: www.quinnipiac.edu...]

It's 59 to 35% in the above quinnpiac poll. scroll down.
So the next time the US Senate votes to send KSM et al back to the military courts, expect alot of Democrat votes to join in.

273 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:04:14pm

re: #268 Jimmah

right the 7/7 attacks.

274 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:04:51pm

re: #267 Petero1818

Good to know, though they got themselves a nice bag of weed.

275 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:06:39pm

re: #265 Petero1818

The military commissions were found to be constitutional by the USSC. So let's use them.

276 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:07:23pm

re: #274 Jeff In Ohio

Good to know, though they got themselves a nice bag of weed.

And thats usually the case. I can say that 20 some odd years ago I too was searched on more than one occasion and relieved of my stash without any "paperwork". And to tell you the truth, given the circumstances, that was ok with me.

277 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:10:47pm

re: #272 sandbox

[Link: www.quinnipiac.edu...]

It's 59 to 35% in the above quinnpiac poll. scroll down.
So the next time the US Senate votes to send KSM et al back to the military courts, expect alot of Democrat votes to join in.

A few things:

-Popular opinion isn't always correct (to an earlier point: the civil rights movement would not have occured as quickly in the south if left to popular votes)

-There is a difference between KSM and what you described as "radical Islamists who should be deported"

-The subjective application of "Terrorist" and the concept that that label could/should prevent a US citizen, or even a foreign national from having rights should be concerning to anyone.

278 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:10:49pm

re: #275 sandbox

The military commissions were found to be constitutional by the USSC. So let's use them.

I take no issue with the constitutionality of the MC. They should be used where appropriate. However, the issue of where appropriate, is the crux of the issue. What is an enemy combatant? It seems that this term has not been dealt with in a sufficient body of jurisprudence. People are making it up as they go along. I personally think your Supreme Court needs to consider the definition of Enemy Combatant.

279 Dona Quixote  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:11:10pm

I work in criminal defense. Most people think that criminals deserve no rights....until the night they are caught DUI and shriek that they aren't criminals and they have rights. I think Sandbox wouldn't like it if he was mistaken for a terrorist and treated the way he apparently wants us to treat people accused of terrorism. I'll take the Bill of Rights. Isn't it the Constituition we supposed to be defending....or are we just defending Sandbox's personal safety?

280 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:11:29pm

re: #189 iceweasel

I'd submit you don't know a damn thing about the UK, and still less about its terrorism measures.
The US still has a lot to learn from the UK in that respect, and frankly I've been shocked the US hasn't picked up the slack even now.

UK airport security was tighter pre-9/11 than ours is now, at least through a traveler's eyes.

281 keloyd  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:12:16pm

When I was tooling around in the truck at lunch, someone on NPR was making the case that the FBI can get more information, more quickly, from mirandized terrorist suspects with their right to remain silent than the military can with its looser rules.

He was making the case that the FBI just has more experience and overall competence.

Have any of you heard this? Maybe they're right; maybe NPR brings on authors to back up their own wishful thinking.

282 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:13:46pm

re: #278 Petero1818

I take no issue with the constitutionality of the MC. They should be used where appropriate. However, the issue of where appropriate, is the crux of the issue. What is an enemy combatant? It seems that this term has not been dealt with in a sufficient body of jurisprudence. People are making it up as they go along. I personally think your Supreme Court needs to consider the definition of Enemy Combatant.

Agree. Great point. If you're going to strip rights away from people (which is a sticky bit in an of itself), you really want to be crystal clear on what actions a person must take before they lose their rights.

283 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:14:01pm

re: #279 Dona Quixote

If you aren't guilty you have nothing to fear from the system!!!!

284 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:14:15pm

re: #281 keloyd

listening to NPR? What are you some kind of communist?///

285 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:14:35pm

re: #281 keloyd


Maybe they're right; maybe NPR brings on authors to back up their own wishful thinking.

But how do you feel? ;)

286 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:14:48pm

re: #281 keloyd

it makes sense; another example along that line is the discussion of whether torture gives reliable evidence at all.

287 Vambo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:15:01pm

re: #96 Rightwingconspirator

Ask the Jewish people why they keep Auschwitz intact. Why they have the photo essay at the memorial. Because in a few years some jerk is going to do some bogus revisionist study about how GWB really blew therm up. The evidence will put the lie to the lie.

not quite. The footage shows planes flying into buildings and people dying, they could still say "GWB did it". It's nothing but sick disaster porn of the worst kind.

also, Auschwitz memorial does not = home video footage of 9/11. the equivalent of that would be a 9/11 memorial. with a photo essay, if you like.

288 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:15:02pm

re: #252 The Sanity Inspector

No, I don't have enough psychic distance from the event yet. But, nine years on, I can abide people's artistic sensibilities having free rein.

I'd still shove a pie into Karlheinz Stockhausen's face for what he said, though, if he were still alive.


Ok, got to admit my ignorance...
I had to look up the Wiki article on him, being afraid to click links I am unfamiliar with too liberally. I was unaware of his remarks re 9-11. It seems he later clarified he meant to say it was Satan's greatest artwork. That would make sense. I don not know him (or the controversy) well enough to judge his sincerity. But I am willing to allow him the benefit of the doubt as everyone was a little jumpy around then and a quote could easily be taken out of context. Feel free to inform me if I am being too generous.

289 Dona Quixote  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:16:04pm

re: #283 windsagio
LOL I know lots of people who really do believe that! Until they speak to me in the interview room.

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:17:39pm

re: #232 sandbox

I have read reports in the UK press that the London police are keeping thousands of radical islamists in many cells under surveillance. I'm not making this up.

Good on them. I'm sure we're surveilling people too. That's how you get information and stop attacks.

291 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:17:51pm

re: #289 Dona Quixote

"You're liberal until you're mugged, and then you're conservative until the police fuck you around".


I feel really strongly about this issue, Its hard to keep it under control >>

~~

It really is the point tho'. The 'military tribunal' thing is all about emotional reaction and a sense of revenge, not a sense of justice or maximizing impact.

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:19:43pm

re: #240 sandbox

Several of the individuals who carried out the 711 jihad attacks were also under surveillance. Alot of good that did to the poor souls blown up on London Transit. Deportation of radical islamists is not the death penalty. They can continue to be a radical islamist in their country of origin. What are you defending?

What if they're a British citizen?

What if they're NOT a 'radical Islamist'?

Who decides?

A few more questions to throw in the blender.

293 Vambo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:19:58pm

re: #109 tradewind

No. It needs to be kept alive in people's minds, because otherwise we drift right back to the mentality that existed before that day, when we were invincible, and it Could Never Happen Here.

...as opposed to the post-9/11 mentality, where everyone is out to kill us and we need to be scared at all times and hate anyone who isn't from America.

294 Dona Quixote  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:20:39pm

re: #291 windsagio
Me too for obvious reasons. I have seen too many police who didn't respect the law and somehow feel superior to my crooks. It is a small percentage but real and troubling.

295 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:21:09pm

re: #278 Petero1818

I take no issue with the constitutionality of the MC. They should be used where appropriate. However, the issue of where appropriate, is the crux of the issue. What is an enemy combatant? It seems that this term has not been dealt with in a sufficient body of jurisprudence. People are making it up as they go along. I personally think your Supreme Court needs to consider the definition of Enemy Combatant.


Glad you said that bit. I too would really like a firmer legal definition for the future. A little late now for the existing bunch; we'll have to muddle through. But we should learn a lesson and tighten our shot group so to speak.

296 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:21:35pm

re: #248 sandbox

Freedom, sure. Freedom to get murdered by the jihadis.

You see absolutely no benefit in the rule of law?

297 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:22:16pm

re: #278 Petero1818

So do you think someone like KSM should be tried in the legally constituted military commission? You think he might be a good candidate.? Is he enough of a radical islamist?

298 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:23:29pm

re: #293 Vambo

...as opposed to the post-9/11 mentality, where everyone is out to kill us and we need to be scared at all times and hate anyone who isn't from America.

Is that in reference to the memorial?

299 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:23:37pm

re: #257 sandbox

Why extend "rule of law" provisions to enemy combatants? BTW this is quite unpopular with the US public. They don't want enemy combatants to get civilian trials. The public is right.

We're well capable of doing both: civilian trials for the civilians nabbed in the U.S., military tribunals for foreign terrorists bagged elsewhere. And, so long as the administration doesn't wuss out and the New York Times doesn't find out, we can continue black ops with high-value captives, to gather more intelligence. We're likely never to know how many lives have been saved thus far, that way.

300 keloyd  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:23:46pm

re: #284 Petero1818

listening to NPR? What are you some kind of communist?///

I'd listen to NPR more if those devils wouldn't get right up on the mic and whisper into it. I hate that, and it seems to be in the rules there.

I've been Republican for 3 generations. Granddad voted against FDR all 4 times, and the first two times he was poor. Here's the ironic thing. On my bookshelf, I have the naughty shelf - I've got the first english edition (but not the first printing) of Mein Kampf, The Bell Curve (which may or may not be racist, but caused a big ruckus in the 90s), The Satanic Verses, a few forgetable 19th centuriy anti-Catholic diatribes, several heretical works of Karen Armstrong, who is getting mellower with time, and 2 Korans, but not one marxist or communist thing anywhere.

301 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:24:07pm

re: #297 sandbox

I still don't really get why you're so afraid of a normal trial.

/and yes I've heard the talking points. They're just gibberish.

302 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:25:05pm

re: #296 SanFranciscoZionist

Come on SF Zionist. Do you consider radical islamists our enemy? Do you consider them your enemy?

303 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:25:15pm

re: #297 sandbox

So do you think someone like KSM should be tried in the legally constituted military commission? You think he might be a good candidate.? Is he enough of a radical islamist?

Watch your semantics sir. I think you just implied that the scale for determining whether or not you have certain rights is somehow related to your devotion to a religion. If that's what you intended, its a pretty dangerous claim.

304 keloyd  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:26:29pm

re: #286 windsagio

it makes sense; another example along that line is the discussion of whether torture gives reliable evidence at all.

Sometimes 'reliable' is not the goal. If you want your suspect to seem more important than he really is, so that you get a bigger feather in your cap, and torture makes him give you big wild fantasies about all the mischief they're cooking up, then torture really does work.
/brb , the tinfoil hat needs polishing

305 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:26:35pm

re: #302 sandbox

dude, turn down the rhetorical grandstanding some. Do you know how you sound?

306 Dona Quixote  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:26:58pm

re: #297 sandbox

So do you think someone like KSM should be tried in the legally constituted military commission? You think he might be a good candidate.? Is he enough of a radical islamist?


The level of radical isn't the point. It's who apprehended them, where they were apprehened and so on. For example I have no problem with the military taking on things like the Fort Hood shooter, because that was an attack on the military by someone in the military. But the undie bomber is where he should be.

307 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:27:24pm

re: #295 Escaped Hillbilly

Glad you said that bit. I too would really like a firmer legal definition for the future. A little late now for the existing bunch; we'll have to muddle through. But we should learn a lesson and tighten our shot group so to speak.

And the next step after you define what constitutes an enemy combatant, is setting up clear guidelines for what to do with them. Half the problem right now is that nobody knows, and in the meantime we have people in a jail in Cuba (and probably in several other jails worldwide) in an awkward legal limbo.

Even if you don't feel for them personally, you have to realize this puts the US as a country in a legal and strategic corner. We've got to have rules for this.

Do they get a trial? Do they get a military commission? Do we get to keep them forever?

308 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:28:01pm

re: #288 Escaped Hillbilly

Ok, got to admit my ignorance...
I had to look up the Wiki article on him, being afraid to click links I am unfamiliar with too liberally. I was unaware of his remarks re 9-11. It seems he later clarified he meant to say it was Satan's greatest artwork. That would make sense. I don not know him (or the controversy) well enough to judge his sincerity. But I am willing to allow him the benefit of the doubt as everyone was a little jumpy around then and a quote could easily be taken out of context. Feel free to inform me if I am being too generous.

If I had more consistency, I would have granted him a pass back then on the grounds that everyone is entitled to a gut reaction, and his turned out to be a flash of artistic insight. But I'm not; I didn't; and I still think much less of him for letting his muse trump his humanity in that instance.

A sample of his art, for your listening bemusement:

309 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:28:18pm

Following a link from the comments at Pam's article, I went to PJTV and watched a 2 part Bill Whittle video. I used to like Bill Whittle.

He interviewed two anonymous gentlemen. His last question to the second one [a "former special agent of the FBI"] was,

"How is the political leadership of this country going to explain to the American people if (god forbid) this day ever comes, when thousands and thousands and thousands of heavily armed killers come down out of these camps that we've known about for twenty years and start shooting up malls and schools and everything else, how in god's name are they going to explain this to the American people?"

This is from a month ago. It may have inspired Pam's article. Sheesh.

310 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:28:32pm

re: #302 sandbox

Come on SF Zionist. Do you consider radical islamists our enemy? Do you consider them your enemy?

Avoid avoid avoid.

I consider the guy who beat me up, or robbed my husband, or raped my daughter "the enemy." Do you somehow think that means I don't want them to have due process? Moreover, what harm is caused by granting due process to people you don't like or seek to harm you? We claim (and I believe) our system is better than theirs; was proving it too hard?

311 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:30:17pm

re: #310 torrentprime

sadly alot of people don't.

Again, justice and revenge aren't the same thing, and too many people (even in the example of normal crime) are way too focused on the latter.

312 sandbox  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:31:07pm

re: #301 windsagio

I don't want to create/continue the precedent that enemy combatants are entitled to access to our civilian justice system. That's all. I don't think that is such a far out view.

313 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:31:36pm

re: #25 TampaKnight

Obama is a Muslim. She's spot on.

Where the f*** did that come from?

Did you forget your sarc tag today?

314 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:32:10pm

re: #312 sandbox

I don't want to create/continue the precedent that enemy combatants are entitled to access to our civilian justice system. That's all. I don't think that is such a far out view.

Its not. But it really depends on how you define enemy combatants. And as others have said, what you can/should do with them after that.

315 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:32:25pm

re: #313 jamesfirecat

Where the f*** did that come from?

Did you forget your sarc tag today?

he did. check a few lines down.

316 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:32:47pm

re: #297 sandbox

So do you think someone like KSM should be tried in the legally constituted military commission? You think he might be a good candidate.? Is he enough of a radical islamist?

See, I think you are barking up the wrong tree on this. It doesn't matter what I think. I think this should be decided by the US courts according to the law and the accepted definition of enemy combatant. But since you asked, based on my 3 years of law school, completed 15 years ago, I would say the following: KSM, was captured in a remote area of Pakistan correct? In a joint operation between Pakistani and US forces. There is little if anything to connect him to typical criminal jurisdiction in the US. Therefore, I would not be surprised to see him tried in a military tribunal, and would not object to it. On the other hand, if there is sufficient public policy reasons for affording him the protections of a criminal proceeding, the AG should feel free to do so. I don't feel as other do, that a civillian trial "endangers America" or "emboldens the enemy". I believe that any truly national security secrets could be dealt with IN CAMERA and all interests could be served.

317 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:32:59pm

Funny thing is, if you ask the Muslim Brotherhood, it's the Jews who control everything.//

318 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:33:08pm

re: #312 sandbox

The problem is, there's no actual gain to your position.

People seem to like it because it 'feels right' and 'we're at war'.

319 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:33:16pm

re: #309 wrenchwench

snip* thousands and thousands and thousands of heavily armed killers come down out of these camps that we've known about for twenty years and start shooting up malls and schools and everything else


White Supremecists? Separatists? Survivalists? KKK? Dude! You may be right! DOH

320 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:34:01pm

re: #313 jamesfirecat

Where the f*** did that come from?

Did you forget your sarc tag today?

He says so. Gotta wonder if he was just spraying the hose on the hornets nest, though.

321 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:34:02pm

re: #311 windsagio

sadly alot of people don't.

Again, justice and revenge aren't the same thing, and too many people (even in the example of normal crime) are way too focused on the latter.

Yup. To expand:
And that feeling isn't monstrous, or unforgivable - it's human! People want revenge when they've been wrong. That's precisely why we don't turn criminals over to the victim's family and say, "Let us know how it goes." With enemies of a state, the ease of legally vanishing or oppressing someone is even greater, and thus it's even more important to do the American thing - rule of law for all, not just those we don't have a religious issue with (like the rapists, murderers and child abusers in the American legal system).

322 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:34:23pm

re: #302 sandbox

Come on SF Zionist. Do you consider radical islamists our enemy? Do you consider them your enemy?

Yes, if we mean the same people by 'radical Islamists'. By that term, I mean people who believe that violence is acceptable in the pursuit of destroying societies deemed by them antithetical to their extremist sect of Islam.

I also consider the desire to gain safety by jettisoning freedom and human rights contemptible, and a great threat to a just society.

There is more than one enemy out there.

323 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:34:38pm

re: #315 eastsider

he did. check a few lines down.

Ahh...

Well Poe's law strikes again!

324 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:37:22pm

re: #322 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, if we mean the same people by 'radical Islamists'. By that term, I mean people who believe that violence is acceptable in the pursuit of destroying societies deemed by them antithetical to their extremist sect of Islam.

I also consider the desire to gain safety by jettisoning freedom and human rights contemptible, and a great threat to a just society.

There is more than one enemy out there.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.:

Benjamin Franklin.....

325 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:37:44pm

re: #322 SanFranciscoZionist
Well said.

326 Dona Quixote  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:39:59pm

We are supposed to be the home of the brave. We can do this.

327 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:40:05pm

re: #308 The Sanity Inspector
Hardy-har-har! My son came running in to find out what that racket was. I had clicked on Helicopter String Quartet. (My kid thinks I'm weird anyway.)

328 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:40:05pm

re: #312 sandbox

I don't want to create/continue the precedent that enemy combatants are entitled to access to our civilian justice system. That's all. I don't think that is such a far out view.

And who is an enemy combatant? Who decides or proves that prisoner A is in fact such a person?

sandbox, it was advocated at one point that the President use the US military, on American soil, to detain and imprison American citizens. Declaring them "enemy combatants", on one man's word, was all it would take for legal protections to be gone forever. Does this sound like the America you want to live in?

329 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:41:30pm

re: #316 Petero1818

[...] I don't feel as other do, that a civillian trial "endangers America" or "emboldens the enemy". I believe that any truly national security secrets could be dealt with IN CAMERA and all interests could be served.

I would think so too, if we hadn't already had terrible proof to the contrary. The trials of the '93 WTC bombers disclosed valuable intelligence to the public, which made its way back to bin Laden. He had been under eavesdropping surveillance, but armed with the knowledge that we were listening, and how we were listening, he secured his lines of communication for the rest of the 90s. He was thus able to perpetrate the East African embassy bombings, and then 9/11 itself.

This is not a talking point, nor is it gibberish. It is a serious concern with real-world precedent, which deserves honest engagement.

330 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:41:43pm

re: #328 torrentprime

The move to detain enemy combatants was authorized by the US Congress in the Military Commissions Act of 2006.

331 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:41:49pm

re: #328 torrentprime

And who is an enemy combatant? Who decides or proves that prisoner A is in fact such a person?

sandbox, it was advocated at one point that the President use the US military, on American soil, to detain and imprison American citizens. Declaring them "enemy combatants", on one man's word, was all it would take for legal protections to be gone forever. Does this sound like the America you want to live in?

Well. That would actually solve this whole terrorism crisis. If they truly hate us for our freedoms, getting rid of our freedoms would stop them from hating us, and end the danger. But then we wouldn't need to suspend the freedoms....oh goodness I've gone crosseyed.

/sarc
/Heller

332 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:42:15pm

re: #328 torrentprime
Chicago, Civil War. Started out defensible, grew insatiable. Martial Law is scary business.

333 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:42:47pm

re: #331 eastsider

What freedoms did you lose under George Bush that you regained under Barack Obama?

334 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:43:26pm

re: #333 Mosh

What freedoms did you lose under George Bush that you regained under Barack Obama?

I missed the part in my response where I said that, sorry.

335 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:43:46pm

re: #333 Mosh

Because everything is about Bush and Obama... Gotcha.

336 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:44:57pm

re: #333 Mosh

What freedoms did you lose under George Bush that you regained under Barack Obama?

Well Barack is against torturing people, and it looks like he's doing away with the governments ability to just ship you off to a private prison in Cuba without a trail..

337 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:45:58pm

re: #336 jamesfirecat

Well Barack is against torturing people, and it looks like he's doing away with the governments ability to just ship you off to a private prison in Cuba without a trail..

I think you meant trial. But trail works surprisingly well there.

338 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:46:32pm
That would actually solve this whole terrorism crisis. If they truly hate us for our freedoms, getting rid of our freedoms would stop them from hating us, and end the danger.

In the context of the conversation it was implied that you believe GWB stripped us of our freedom.

339 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:46:36pm

re: #330 Mosh

The move to detain enemy combatants was authorized by the US Congress in the Military Commissions Act of 2006.


Which does an inadequate job of defining "enemy combatant", does not place a limit on how long they can be held, nor define what, if any, legal protections or rights under the law they should have save those given under Geneva, Hague, et al.
It isn't that I want our method of handling them watered down. I just think we haven't spelled it out well enough for our own benefit. I'm all for "hang em high" but first, make sure they're guilty...and we're not.

340 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:47:48pm

re: #338 Mosh

In the context of the conversation it was implied that you believe GWB stripped us of our freedom.

Uh, no. We're talking about sandbox's proposal to strip certain persons of the protection of the law. Bush hasn't been mentioned except in the context of decisions his administration made about how to try terror suspects.

I think. I'm almost certain.

341 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:47:59pm

re: #329 The Sanity Inspector

I would think so too, if we hadn't already had terrible proof to the contrary. The trials of the '93 WTC bombers disclosed valuable intelligence to the public, which made its way back to bin Laden. He had been under eavesdropping surveillance, but armed with the knowledge that we were listening, and how we were listening, he secured his lines of communication for the rest of the 90s. He was thus able to perpetrate the East African embassy bombings, and then 9/11 itself.

This is not a talking point, nor is it gibberish. It is a serious concern with real-world precedent, which deserves honest engagement.

That is a valid point and you are correct, worthy of honest engagement. the fact that it may have been done incorrectly once, does not mean it can't be done correctly the next time. I am not saying it is easy, but living up to the values that you have set for yourself as a nation is not always easy.

Which brings me to a second point, which is that I do not view these values to be absolute. The fact is that if you commit a crime in Iran, or in China, you need to know what your trial is going to look like. Its your own damn fault. you should not have committed that crime there if you wanted a real trial with a real adversarial system. That is why I do not fault Israel for the way they treat "ticking time bombs" within their system. I may wish for something else, but the reality is it is their system. They live with shit we cant even imagine.

342 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:48:00pm

re: #338 Mosh

In the context of the conversation it was implied that you believe GWB stripped us of our freedom.

not really, but its interesting that you read so much into it.

Also note the tags at the end, it was a semi-tongue in cheek comment referencing the book Catch-22.

343 Dona Quixote  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:48:01pm

re: #333 Mosh

You know I daresay you will find Democrats and Republicans who care about our constitution. And who believe in the rule of law. This shouldn't be a partisan issue.

344 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:48:48pm

re: #336 jamesfirecat

Well Barack is against torturing people, and it looks like he's doing away with the governments ability to just ship you off to a private prison in Cuba without a trail..

Gitmo is owned and operated by the US government. If you are refering to waterboarding as "torture" you are wrong. It has never been considered torture. We waterboard our Navy SEALS as part of our training. Does that mean we torture our own military?

345 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:49:49pm

re: #338 Mosh

In the context of the conversation it was implied that you believe GWB stripped us of our freedom.

Well, check out the handling of Jose Padilla, an American citizen, for one.

As to the other point, Obama has stopped the EIT and extraordinary rendition, but original recipe rendition remains in favour, as do virtually all of the Bush policies regarding civil liberties (or rather, the curtailment thereof).
However Obama isn't yet screening his 'public' audiences.

346 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:50:31pm

re: #344 Mosh

You're hopeless.

/yes I probably deserve some - for that, but somebody had to say it!

347 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:51:06pm

re: #344 Mosh

Gitmo is owned and operated by the US government. If you are refering to waterboarding as "torture" you are wrong. It has never been considered torture. We waterboard our Navy SEALS as part of our training. Does that mean we torture our own military?

Its not torture if its done with the permission of the people its being done to.

The SEALS agree to be waterborded to build up their resistance to the technique.

348 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:53:24pm

re: #347 jamesfirecat

I know it's a second hand account but my friend trained to be a Navy SEAL and when he signed up there was no fine print saying "Oh by the way, we are going to waterboard you". He told me that his instructor just sprung it on them one day during training.

He told me it was unpleasant but he would not consider it torture.

349 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:53:39pm

re: #344 Mosh

Gitmo is owned and operated by the US government. If you are refering to waterboarding as "torture" you are wrong. It has never been considered torture. We waterboard our Navy SEALS as part of our training. Does that mean we torture our own military?

False. The OIG of the CIA itself concluded that waterboarding is torture, and we have suspended all SERE training involving waterboarding long ago, except for the Navy-- because of the psychological damage it caused our own troops even under the controlled conditions of a simulation.

PDF of the 2004 CIA report here.

350 I Am Kreniigh!  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:53:57pm

re: #72 Lidane

Basement Cat vs. Ceiling Cat

Hey, that's my current wallpaper! How did you know? OMG, you're one of THEM!!! Geller was RIGHT!!!

351 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:54:17pm

re: #344 Mosh

Gitmo is owned and operated by the US government. If you are refering to waterboarding as "torture" you are wrong. It has never been considered torture. We waterboard our Navy SEALS as part of our training. Does that mean we torture our own military?

It has been considered torture, but the debate is over who holds that opinion. So while 69% of the US population (link) think its torture, the Executive Branch (as outlined by Yoo) said it wasn't.

Also, off topic, but I didn't know registration was open today? It says you've been registered since today. . .

352 Dona Quixote  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:54:31pm

re: #344 Mosh

Gitmo is owned and operated by the US government. If you are refering to waterboarding as "torture" you are wrong. It has never been considered torture. We waterboard our Navy SEALS as part of our training. Does that mean we torture our own military?

Yes. Have you never heard about navy seal training? They are tortured....on purpose. Are you saying they aren't? Would you like to be waterboarded?
My son is a Marine. He works with SEALS. They are tortured in their training to make sure they can take it. And when the Japanese did it to our guys they were charged with torture.

353 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:54:49pm

re: #344 Mosh
Yes. That's the point actually. It is a slightly softened version of torture. The generally only do it as part of SERE (survival, escape, resistance, evasion) training in the Army. SERE III is voluntary. Do you see a difference? People voluntarily subjecting themselves to a dangerous, painful and scary procedure with the knowledge that it is being done carefully with no real risk of death and with the purpose of preparing you for possibly becoming a real POW as opposed to people involuntarily subjected to the same procedures without any such guarantee?
You can argue whether is is real torture or not or whether torture is sometimes justified, but please don't drag SEAL/SERE training into it.

354 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:55:14pm

re: #349 iceweasel

Thanks for the link. And I am being sincere. :)

My comments just reflect my current opinion. My opinion can be changed with facts.

355 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:55:27pm

re: #348 Mosh

I know it's a second hand account but my friend trained to be a Navy SEAL and when he signed up there was no fine print saying "Oh by the way, we are going to waterboard you". He told me that his instructor just sprung it on them one day during training.

He told me it was unpleasant but he would not consider it torture.

Well I guess if one man who knows its being done to him when he can't possibly "break" from the torture since he has no information to loose says that its not torture it's not torture!

Also I wonder how many prospective SEALS out there who are left who don't know that we do we do this to our own men given, that its all over the internet now.....

356 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:57:45pm

re: #351 eastsider

Yep, I'm a newbie. :)

357 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:57:59pm

re: #344 Mosh

Gitmo is owned and operated by the US government. If you are refering to waterboarding as "torture" you are wrong. It has never been considered torture. We waterboard our Navy SEALS as part of our training. Does that mean we torture our own military?

Downding for the most moronic argument ever produced for waterboarding.

WHY do we waterboard Navy SEALS in training, chatchkie? Answer me that.

358 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:58:45pm

re: #357 SanFranciscoZionist

Downding for the most moronic argument ever produced for waterboarding.

WHY do we waterboard Navy SEALS in training, chatchkie? Answer me that.

Probably so our SEALS will be ready to resist "enhanced interrogation techniques..."

359 eastsider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:58:57pm

re: #356 Mosh

Yep, I'm a newbie. :)

Welcome! This is one of the better places online to debate. Facts are highly valued and I've literally seen minds changed (my own included) through discussion w/ some smart folks here. I think you'll like it.

360 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:59:05pm

re: #357 SanFranciscoZionist

They are thirsty, and there are no cups on the base?////

361 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:59:15pm

re: #348 Mosh

I know it's a second hand account but my friend trained to be a Navy SEAL and when he signed up there was no fine print saying "Oh by the way, we are going to waterboard you". He told me that his instructor just sprung it on them one day during training.

He told me it was unpleasant but he would not consider it torture.

And yet, it has to be done, because hardcore radical terrorists who will not budge under normal interrogation procedures crack when you waterboard them.

/Is it just me, or is there some kind of cognitive disconnect going on here?

362 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:59:54pm

re: #361 SanFranciscoZionist

And yet, it has to be done, because hardcore radical terrorists who will not budge under normal interrogation procedures crack when you waterboard them.

/Is it just me, or is there some kind of cognitive disconnect going on here?

/They're from the desert, they're not used to water.

363 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 5:59:55pm

re: #352 Dona Quixote

I didn't know about that trial. Could you link to an article about it?

Also, God Bless your son for serving! :)

364 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:01:04pm

re: #354 Mosh

Thanks for the link. And I am being sincere. :)

My comments just reflect my current opinion. My opinion can be changed with facts.

You're welcome. Footnote 24? 26? has the info on the SERE training. The whole report is instructive.

Bear in mind too that we don't get reliable evidence from torture. This also has been established by military professionals.
And our SERE training was reverse engineered via the torture that US POWS underwent in China and elsewhere. Also via looking at what such lovely regimes as Cambodia employed.
Under Bush we then used our training manuals about resisting torture to engineer a torture program.
I highly recommend Malcolm Nance's piece in Small Wars Journal if you remain unconvinced that waterboarding is torture. The CIA report should be sufficient for you to conclude that, but even so.
Some of Nance's bio:

Malcolm W. Nance is a counter-terrorism and terrorism intelligence consultant for the U.S. government’s Special Operations, Homeland Security and Intelligence agencies. A 20-year veteran of the US intelligence community's Combating Terrorism program and a six year veteran of the Global War on Terrorism he has extensive field and combat experience as an field intelligence collections operator, an Arabic speaking interrogator and a master Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) instructor. From Beirut in 1983 he has deployed on numerous anti-terrorism and counter-terrorism intelligence operations in Balkans, Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa and other small wars in direct support to the principle agencies of the Special Operations and Intelligence Community. In 1997 at the US Navy SERE School’s Advanced Terrorism, Abduction and Hostage Survival program (ATAHS) in Coronado, California, he created and led the terrorism training team tasked to simulate the Al Qaeda organization and its tactics, techniques and procedures. In January 2001, he formed Special Readiness Services International to support the SOF in analysis of Al Qaeda and global Jihadi strategy and tactics. On the morning of 9/11 he eye witnessed the attack on the Pentagon and performed rescue/recovery at the crash site. For more than six years he has conducted operations in support of international, federal and state homeland security agencies as well as in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

He knows waterboarding is torture because he was one of the SERE creators, and he's waterboarded.

365 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:01:08pm

re: #362 jamesfirecat

/They're from the desert, they're not used to water.

Like cats. They don't like getting wet. So you put a terrorist in a bathtub...

366 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:01:49pm

re: #357 SanFranciscoZionist

Instead of calling me a moron you should link to an article like iceweasel did.

I can be swayed on any issue if someone delivers me a coherent, factual argument.

367 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:03:00pm

re: #361 SanFranciscoZionist

And yet, it has to be done, because hardcore radical terrorists who will not budge under normal interrogation procedures crack when you waterboard them.

/Is it just me, or is there some kind of cognitive disconnect going on here?


Not really. SEALS tend to be people very comfortable in the water, they have to be. One of the "torture" training techniques sometimes used by Spec Forces is to have a person stand immobile in a vat of water up to their noses. Their nostrils are just avove the water and they can breath as long as they don't move. They are not tied up. There is no punishment for getting out escept failure. People freak! It is inherently terrifying to most people to come close to drowning.

368 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:03:07pm

re: #363 Mosh

I didn't know about that trial. Could you link to an article about it?

Also, God Bless your son for serving! :)

You will find info on the Japanese waterboarding techniques, as well as the conclusion that the form of waterboarding we employed under the EIT being no different than the Japanese's version, in the pdf of the CIA report I already linked.

369 Dona Quixote  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:05:29pm

re: #363 Mosh

I didn't know about that trial. Could you link to an article about it?

Also, God Bless your son for serving! :)

Thanks. He's currently deployed but safe. I googled Japanese waterboarding and found a dozen articles. I don't know what you consider a good source but you may want to start with wiki.

370 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:08:36pm

re: #364 iceweasel

Thank you! You are very well researched, much more so than I am. :)

I just have one bone to pick. Didn't waterboarding get KSM to reveal the LA bomb plot?

Link

Did the CIA have prior knowledge of a possible attack prior to KSM's waterboarding?

371 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:09:01pm

re: #369 Dona Quixote

Gotta love wikipedia! :)

372 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:09:24pm

re: #366 Mosh

Instead of calling me a moron you should link to an article like iceweasel did.

I can be swayed on any issue if someone delivers me a coherent, factual argument.

Fair enough, but this is Ice's wicket. I just get irritated with irrational arguments.

I apologize for my ire.

373 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:09:53pm

re: #367 Escaped Hillbilly

Not really. SEALS tend to be people very comfortable in the water, they have to be. One of the "torture" training techniques sometimes used by Spec Forces is to have a person stand immobile in a vat of water up to their noses. Their nostrils are just avove the water and they can breath as long as they don't move. They are not tied up. There is no punishment for getting out escept failure. People freak! It is inherently terrifying to most people to come close to drowning.

Ah, interesting.

374 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:10:14pm

re: #370 Mosh

Thank you! You are very well researched, much more so than I am. :)

I just have one bone to pick. Didn't waterboarding get KSM to reveal the LA bomb plot?

Link

Did the CIA have prior knowledge of a possible attack prior to KSM's waterboarding?

So the fact that we gained one piece of information among the miles and miles of crap that people will spew to stop from being tortured means that its okay that we sacrafice the soul of our great nation to do it?

375 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:11:02pm

re: #372 SanFranciscoZionist

It's okay. BTW, I look forward to future debates with you and others on this site.

376 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:11:56pm

re: #375 Mosh

It's okay. BTW, I look forward to future debates with you and others on this site.

Stick around, and you most certainly will find them here. We're a debatey lot.

So, what brings you to LGF?

377 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:12:15pm

re: #341 Petero1818

That is a valid point and you are correct, worthy of honest engagement. the fact that it may have been done incorrectly once, does not mean it can't be done correctly the next time. I am not saying it is easy, but living up to the values that you have set for yourself as a nation is not always easy.

Don't you think they tried to do it "correctly" in the trial of the '93 bombers? We've been on the lookout for terrorists for decades, you know, and have had practice in securing valuable intelligence for decades before that, during the Cold War. But when some fancy-pants lawyer--who in a civilian court is bound by law and custom to do whatever it legally takes to acquit his client--discloses some vital piece of intelligence, it has consequences. One of the consequences should be to quit repeating the errors that led to so much American bloodshed.

Which brings me to a second point, which is that I do not view these values to be absolute. The fact is that if you commit a crime in Iran, or in China, you need to know what your trial is going to look like. Its your own damn fault. you should not have committed that crime there if you wanted a real trial with a real adversarial system. That is why I do not fault Israel for the way they treat "ticking time bombs" within their system. I may wish for something else, but the reality is it is their system. They live with shit we cant even imagine.

Yes, Third World countries' judicial systems are Teh SuXXoR, no news there. And, having gone through a patdown at a checkpoint from Jordan into Israel, I know how seriously they take their security. It's interesting and everything, but I don't see how it has bearing on how we should handle our terrorism issues.

378 Dona Quixote  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:12:44pm

re: #374 jamesfirecat

So the fact that we gained one piece of information among the miles and miles of crap that people will spew to stop from being tortured means that its okay that we sacrafice the soul of our great nation to do it?

We knew about LA before KSM was waterboarded. We didn't gain that info through torture but through intelligence. Mosh is mistaken.

379 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:12:45pm

re: #375 Mosh

It's okay. BTW, I look forward to future debates with you and others on this site.

FYI I hope "Its okay to torture if it works" or anything along those lines won't be an argument that wins you many friends here....

380 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:13:00pm

re: #148 torrentprime

I wasn't able to hear every word the woman mumbled, but McCain's response to "He's an Arab" was, "No, he's a decent family man." Like Arabs can't be. :(

To be fair to John McCain, I think he was thrown by the level of loony on display, and trying his best to defend his opponent. Very clumsily done, but I don't think there was any anti-Arab slur intended.

381 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:14:46pm

re: #370 Mosh

Thank you! You are very well researched, much more so than I am. :)

I just have one bone to pick. Didn't waterboarding get KSM to reveal the LA bomb plot?

Link

Did the CIA have prior knowledge of a possible attack prior to KSM's waterboarding?

KSM was waterboarded 183 times in one month, far in excess of even the permissible amount under the EIT. Like Zubaidya, and Padilla, we didn't obtain any information we didn't already have, and we did obtain lots of false info.
PDF of the 2005 Bradbury memo here.

The former CIA operative who vouched for the efficacy of waterboarding recently admitted that he lied.

382 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:14:53pm

re: #374 jamesfirecat

Maybe its just a differing opinion, but I don't think waterboarding a few terrorists constitutes "destroying the soul of our great nation".

The actions of the Bush administration would make the Founders cringe, like their authorization of extraordinary rendition, which I do consider torture and disgraceful.

Our Constitution and our Founding Values had been abandoned long before the Bush administration came into the White House.

383 Dona Quixote  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:16:24pm

This has been interesting but this fancy pants lawyer has court in the morning. Night all.

384 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:17:16pm

re: #380 Kruk

To be fair to John McCain, I think he was thrown by the level of loony on display, and trying his best to defend his opponent. Very clumsily done, but I don't think there was any anti-Arab slur intended.

Yeah. I didn't like the implications of what he said, but I really think the poor man just blurted out the best he could pull together. Even for an experienced politician, that must have been quite the moment.

For some reason it reminds me of an interview I read with the actor who plays the sexy vampire in the Twilight movies. He said, you know, you get a good part, and you make the movie, and it's a lot of money, and then you're out promoting it, and teenage girls are coming up to you with bloody scratches on their necks saying "I did this for YOU!" and you're thinking this cannot possibly be happening.

I think McCain had the grown-up political equivalent happen that day.

385 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:17:23pm

re: #376 SanFranciscoZionist

I've been reading for a few months.

386 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:18:02pm

re: #382 Mosh

Maybe its just a differing opinion, but I don't think waterboarding a few terrorists constitutes "destroying the soul of our great nation".

The actions of the Bush administration would make the Founders cringe, like their authorization of extraordinary rendition, which I do consider torture and disgraceful.

Our Constitution and our Founding Values had been abandoned long before the Bush administration came into the White House.

Look.

You just start with "waterboarding" a few terrorists, or maybe slamming them up against padded walls, or making them stack themselves in nude Pyramids while you point at their genitals and laugh, or force them into boxes with caterpillars when you know they're afraid of bugs but at a certain point......

Well please tell me you get the idea by now don't you?

387 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:18:08pm

re: #385 Mosh

I've been reading for a few months.

Well, welcome.

388 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:18:40pm

re: #383 Dona Quixote

It's like my Dad always told me "I can go out and make an honest living or I can practice law".

389 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:19:34pm

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist

This does scare me. These people are really crazy (Pam et al, not Geithner et al.) and they're gaining more traction than people this dumb and crazy should be allowed to gain in a sane society.

The trouble is that society does become less, for want of a better word, sane in times like this. This piece about the effects this reccession might have on a whole generation is terrifying. A generation of hopeless, angry people who believe they have been cheated by life is the perfect breeding ground for all kinds of evil.

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

390 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:20:09pm

re: #385 Mosh

I've been reading for a few months.


Wow, you're a late bloomer! (kidding, put down the hammer.)

391 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:21:03pm

re: #384 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. I didn't like the implications of what he said, but I really think the poor man just blurted out the best he could pull together. Even for an experienced politician, that must have been quite the moment.

For some reason it reminds me of an interview I read with the actor who plays the sexy vampire in the Twilight movies. He said, you know, you get a good part, and you make the movie, and it's a lot of money, and then you're out promoting it, and teenage girls are coming up to you with bloody scratches on their necks saying "I did this for YOU!" and you're thinking this cannot possibly be happening.

I think McCain had the grown-up political equivalent happen that day.

That's quite a free-associative image, there!

392 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:22:36pm

re: #382 Mosh

Maybe its just a differing opinion, but I don't think waterboarding a few terrorists constitutes "destroying the soul of our great nation".

Torture is antithetical to American values. Under the EIT even the CIA concluded that we tortured. We employed forms of waterboarding that were no different than that for which we accused, and convicted, the Japanese of war crimes. This is all in the CIA report.

ThinkProgress has an excellent long report on the failures of the Enhanced Interrogation Techniques program, available here. It's multiply sourced.

I have many more links as well, to various reports from the DOD, CIA, and other sources to back up the TP report. But the TP report is not a bad place to start getting a handle on the issue. It's easier than plunging in and reading 1000+ pages of often confusing military reports, but I have those links too.

I have to get dinner but I'll be back in a bit. Enjoy LGF!

393 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:22:36pm

re: #391 The Sanity Inspector

That's quite a free-associative image, there!

Well we did mention "McCain is a vampire" a back in the "Obama whitchdoctor" thread a while ago......

394 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:23:29pm

re: #386 jamesfirecat

Look.

You just start with "waterboarding" a few terrorists, or maybe slamming them up against padded walls, or making them stack themselves in nude Pyramids while you point at their genitals and laugh, or force them into boxes with caterpillars when you know they're afraid of bugs but at a certain point...

Well please tell me you get the idea by now don't you?

Don't forget: Padilla was a US citizen. This really can't be stressed enough.
BBL.

395 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:23:51pm

re: #386 jamesfirecat

You seem like a passionate civil libertarian and I respect that.

But there is one thing that I just don't get with civil libertarians. You guys critique waterboarding, threats, and using their arachnaphobia against them. But you guys never argue an alternative interrogation method.

What should be done to interrogate terrorist suspects and would you consider it appropriate if those interrogation techniques where made available to the media?

396 Quilly Mammoth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:25:13pm

re: #381 iceweasel

KSM was waterboarded 183 times in one month, far in excess of even the permissible amount under the EIT. Like Zubaidya, and Padilla, we didn't obtain any information we didn't already have, and we did obtain lots of false info.
PDF of the 2005 Bradbury memo here.


Unless there's new information 183 was the number of "pours". Not number of times he was strapped to the board.

That being said...Geller is insane and now a featured writer on one the so-called "new media superstars" website and threads here degenerate into rehashing history.

What a choice: the far left wing agenda of the Obama Administration or the Kooks running the counter political agenda. Sheesh.

What so many miss is that Iraq was not won...if we can say that...by "kill them all" or by running away. It was won because finally the intelligent grown ups proposed a new strategy.

We need that domestically now.

397 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:27:14pm

re: #395 Mosh
They are all available. There are many. They are highly effective when applied by skilled, talented, trained experts in the detainee's native language. They remain effective even when the enemy knows they exist. Cops didn't become less effective when "Good Cop, Bad Cop" became public knowledge. Any psych or sociology student has access to the techniques.

398 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:27:21pm

re: #390 Escaped Hillbilly

The hammer?

I know I come off as confident in my opinions.

My areas of expertise is not interrogation policy. I'm better equipped to debate foreign policy, economics, the price system, energy policy, anthropogenic climate change, and American culture.

399 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:28:23pm

re: #397 Escaped Hillbilly

Good cop, bad cop has not been effective in dealing with the Undie-Bomber.

400 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:29:57pm

re: #377 The Sanity Inspector

Yes, Third World countries' judicial systems are Teh SuXXoR, no news there. And, having gone through a patdown at a checkpoint from Jordan into Israel, I know how seriously they take their security. It's interesting and everything, but I don't see how it has bearing on how we should handle our terrorism issues.

My point was that if you don't like it, change the yard stick. I do not believe in universal rights for people who commit crimes. I simply believe that your constitution guarantees people who commit crimes certain rights. You don't like it, change it. But don't as so many on the right do, hold up the constitution as a stone tablet that guides the country, and turn around later and say, oh but we never really thought it should apply to those that try to hurt us. Thats bullshit. And I am not saying that that is your position per se, but that is why I referred to those rights not being universal in my previous post.
As far as mistakes in previous trials that cost lives later, that is an unfortunate byproduct of your system and is hardly unique to that case. Often, there are things that happen in a trial which may result in mistrial or acquittal and that result in a criminal back on the street who commits another crime. Its not a perfect system I agree. I wish you guys would see that already. Just know that changing things can have equally awful unintended consequences.

401 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:30:07pm

re: #398 Mosh
Dang, for a guy who just learned to read you sure do use fancy language. Sorry, I tend to veer from serious to punnish without warning.

402 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:31:05pm

re: #336 jamesfirecat

Well Barack is against torturing people, and it looks like he's doing away with the governments ability to just ship you off to a private prison in Cuba without a trail..

One more point-- No, Obama isn't doing that. He closed the 'black sites' run by the CIA; but most of the black sites are now under the administration of JSOC. Those sites will remain open, and it will continue to be business as usual there, no doubt.

More info on JSOC here:

Most people could be forgiven for being unfamiliar with JSOC. The Joint Special Operations Command is part of the U.S. military's Special Operations Command, for which it oversees certain special operations. Established in 1980 following the unsuccessful rescue of American hostages at the U.S. embassy in Tehran, it has remained an obscure and secretive corner of the military's hierarchy. But JSOC has enjoyed a rapid expansion of authority and notoriety beginning in the latter years of the Bush administration. Under President Obama, JSOC appears to be playing an increasingly prominent role in national security, counter-terrorism and the war in Afghanistan. If Obama's first ten months in office are any indication, it may not be so obscure for long.

A series of reports has shown JSOC taking on greater responsibility, especially in areas traditionally covered by the CIA. As recently as this weekend, The New York Times reported a secret "black jail" facility run by "military Special Operations" in Afghanistan. Descriptions of the detention center are strikingly similar to those of CIA "black sites," which Obama ordered closed in his first week in office. In Pakistan, JSOC reportedly runs a UAV (unmanned aerial vehicle, or predator drone) program that rivals or exceeds that of the CIA. It may even be responsible for many of the UAV strikes attributed to the CIA.


Lots of links and info there.
ok, dinner for real now!

403 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:31:46pm

re: #399 Mosh

Good cop, bad cop has not been effective in dealing with the Undie-Bomber.


He's cooperating now. How do you know what technique they used? And I said, skilled, talented... When interrogators aren't up to the task, they resort to the old standby.

404 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:32:18pm

re: #396 Quilly Mammoth

What a choice: the far left wing agenda of the Obama Administration or the Kooks running the counter political agenda. Sheesh.

I would say that Obama has a liberal, big government agenda but "far left" seems a little hypberbollic.

405 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:32:48pm

re: #401 Escaped Hillbilly

?

406 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:33:37pm

re: #395 Mosh

You seem like a passionate civil libertarian and I respect that.

But there is one thing that I just don't get with civil libertarians. You guys critique waterboarding, threats, and using their arachnaphobia against them. But you guys never argue an alternative interrogation method.

What should be done to interrogate terrorist suspects and would you consider it appropriate if those interrogation techniques where made available to the media?

Dude I'm a liberal, I believe in big government.

I believe in big government that is is bound by the will of the people.

You want to interrogate these bastards?

You do it like you do the Nazis in WW2, you sit down and you play chess with them and you talk.

These are not the soldiers of the Third Reich, they're nothing but a collection of assholes and motherf***ers who don't have a chance at beating us unless we let them!

407 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:34:59pm

re: #385 Mosh

I've been reading for a few months.


Sorry again. But really...you invited a joke. And constant arguing gets to me.

408 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:35:21pm

re: #399 Mosh

Good cop, bad cop has not been effective in dealing with the Undie-Bomber.

Yeah, it wasn't needed, he started talking to us the moment we arrested him.

409 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:35:50pm

re: #396 Quilly Mammoth

Unless there's new information 183 was the number of "pours". Not number of times he was strapped to the board.

Check the PDF of the 2005 Bradbury CIA memo I already linked. As for the 'pours', those also were supposed to be tightly regulated under the EIT. They weren't.

On page 37 of the OLC memo, in a passage discussing the differences between SERE techniques and the torture used with detainees, the memo explains:

The CIA used the waterboard "at least 83 times during August 2002" in the interrogation of Zubaydah. IG Report at 90, and 183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM, see id. at 91.

Note, the information comes from the CIA IG report which, in the case of Abu Zubaydah, is based on having viewed the torture tapes as well as other materials. So this is presumably a number that was once backed up by video evidence.

The same OLC memo passage explains how the CIA might manage to waterboard these men so many times in one month each (though even with these chilling numbers, the CIA’s math doesn’t add up).

…where authorized, it may be used for two "sessions" per day of up to two hours. During a session, water may be applied up to six times for ten seconds or longer (but never more than 40 seconds). In a 24-hour period, a detainee may be subjected to up to twelve minutes of water appliaction. See id. at 42. Additionally, the waterboard may be used on as many as five days during a 30-day approval period.

So: two two-hour sessions a day, with six applications of the waterboard each = 12 applications in a day. Though to get up to the permitted 12 minutes of waterboarding in a day (with each use of the waterboard limited to 40 seconds), you’d need 18 applications in a day. Assuming you use the larger 18 applications in one 24-hour period, and do 18 applications on five days within a month, you’ve waterboarded 90 times–still just half of what they did to KSM.


This is the money quote w/r/t to KSM et al:

There’s been a lot of discussion about whether those who did what the OLC memos authorized should be prosecuted. But in the case of those who waterboarded KSM and Abu Zubaydah, that’s irrelevant, because they did things the OLC memos didn’t authorize.


Link is to Marcy Wheeler at FDL, but you can find all this info in the CIA pdf's themselves.

410 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:35:57pm

re: #406 jamesfirecat

Most Big government programs are unconstitutional anyway. You should read "Democracy, the God That Failed".

A Constitutional Federal Republic is what our founders envisioned and I am a proud defender of that.

411 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:38:59pm

re: #410 Mosh

Most Big government programs are unconstitutional anyway. You should read "Democracy, the God That Failed".

A Constitutional Federal Republic is what our founders envisioned and I am a proud defender of that.

"But what if we changed the constitution?"

"Then we could make all sorts of crazy laws!"

There's a reason the founders imagined it as a living document, or are you saying they're still unconstitutional now even as it stands?

412 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:41:12pm

re: #388 Mosh

It's like my Dad always told me "I can go out and make an honest living or I can practice law".

Very classy ///

413 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:42:36pm

re: #410 Mosh

Most Big government programs are unconstitutional anyway. You should read "Democracy, the God That Failed".

A Constitutional Federal Republic is what our founders envisioned and I am a proud defender of that.

Also how did we go from you talking about why we needed to keep waterboarding people to why I'm wrong to support big governemnt?

I'm confused....

414 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:42:53pm

re: #400 Petero1818

My point was that if you don't like it, change the yard stick. I do not believe in universal rights for people who commit crimes. I simply believe that your constitution guarantees people who commit crimes certain rights. You don't like it, change it. But don't as so many on the right do, hold up the constitution as a stone tablet that guides the country, and turn around later and say, oh but we never really thought it should apply to those that try to hurt us. Thats bullshit. And I am not saying that that is your position per se, but that is why I referred to those rights not being universal in my previous post.

I'll have to masticate that for a bit, I don't immediately grasp the distinction you're making.

As far as mistakes in previous trials that cost lives later, that is an unfortunate byproduct of your system and is hardly unique to that case. Often, there are things that happen in a trial which may result in mistrial or acquittal and that result in a criminal back on the street who commits another crime. Its not a perfect system I agree. I wish you guys would see that already. Just know that changing things can have equally awful unintended consequences.

Well, here I can only insert the well-known insistence that jihadist terrorism is war, not crime. At least above a certain level of conspiracy and lethality.

415 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:43:02pm

re: #399 Mosh

Good cop, bad cop has not been effective in dealing with the Undie-Bomber.

How not?

416 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:43:38pm

re: #413 jamesfirecat

Also how did we go from you talking about why we needed to keep waterboarding people to why I'm wrong to support big governemnt?

I'm confused...

Thread drift.

417 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:43:59pm

re: #413 jamesfirecat

Also how did we go from you talking about why we needed to keep waterboarding people to why I'm wrong to support big governemnt?

I'm confused...

You mean you weren't proposing to expand waterboarding so that every single American could appreciate the same benefits that those in Congress have?//

418 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:45:26pm

re: #411 jamesfirecat

"But what if we changed the constitution?"

"Then we could make all sorts of crazy laws!"

There's a reason the founders imagined it as a living document, or are you saying they're still unconstitutional now even as it stands?

Some folks like to call the Constitution a living document, because they can torture it into saying whatever they want it to say.

419 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:45:52pm

re: #411 jamesfirecat

I love the Simpsons too.

If you want to change the constitution follow the procedure that the Founders outlined. Article V states that the Constitution may be altered through a constitutional amendment or through a constitutional convention. As it stands, our constitution does not allow the government to set up a national health insurance option, it does not allow the Federal government to set up a carbon market. It does not give the Federal government the authority to run the education system. In fact under the Tenth Amendment which states that "All powers not delegated to the Congress by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it are reserved to the states".

The states can establish single-payer health care systems, cap carbon, and run the education system but the Federal government does not posses those powers.

420 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:47:27pm

re: #418 The Sanity Inspector

ROFTL. I'm going to have to frame your comment. :)

421 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:48:37pm

re: #418 The Sanity Inspector

Some folks like to call the Constitution a living document, because they can torture it into saying whatever they want it to say.

Sure, that's why.

422 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:49:57pm

re: #419 Mosh

I love the Simpsons too.

If you want to change the constitution follow the procedure that the Founders outlined. Article V states that the Constitution may be altered through a constitutional amendment or through a constitutional convention. As it stands, our constitution does not allow the government to set up a national health insurance option, it does not allow the Federal government to set up a carbon market. It does not give the Federal government the authority to run the education system. In fact under the Tenth Amendment which states that "All powers not delegated to the Congress by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it are reserved to the states".

The states can establish single-payer health care systems, cap carbon, and run the education system but the Federal government does not posses those powers.

Hey you're a Tenther!

423 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:51:11pm

re: #422 jamesfirecat

I'm a Constitutionalist.

424 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:51:17pm

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

Also the government of Egypt, which routinely jails and tortures them, so it does seem sort of odd.

OMG.

The Brotherhood has infiltrated the U.S. govt. in order to destroy the Brotherhood! They are that diabolical!

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerfull than you can possibly imagine....."

425 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:51:36pm

re: #419 Mosh

I love the Simpsons too.

If you want to change the constitution follow the procedure that the Founders outlined. Article V states that the Constitution may be altered through a constitutional amendment or through a constitutional convention. As it stands, our constitution does not allow the government to set up a national health insurance option, it does not allow the Federal government to set up a carbon market. It does not give the Federal government the authority to run the education system. In fact under the Tenth Amendment which states that "All powers not delegated to the Congress by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it are reserved to the states".

The states can establish single-payer health care systems, cap carbon, and run the education system but the Federal government does not posses those powers.

What part of Education and Healthcare and making sure we have clean air to breath doesn't fall under "Promote the General wellfare"?

426 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:52:02pm

re: #414 The Sanity Inspector

Well, here I can only insert the well-known insistence that jihadist terrorism is war, not crime. At least above a certain level of conspiracy and lethality.

Well that is exactly where I think the issue turns. What basis in law is there for this "well-known insistence". If I go out tomorrow and stab a guy in the street and yell Allahu Akbar, is that murder or terrorism. Would it change if I didn't say Allahu Akbar but had a koran in my backpack. What if there was no Koran, And what would change if I killed 3 people not 1. What if I was on a muslim chat board the night before and told some others that I was feeling an urge to hurt or kill people. What if the underwear bomber had no real connection to Al Qaeda in the Gulf, but was acting on his own, but for reasons of faith.

I am not for a second stating that Jihadi terrorism is or isnt war rather than crime, I am saying I sure as hell don't have legal guidance on the issue, nor do I think you do. And it is a very serious and slippery slope.

427 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:54:24pm

re: #164 torrentprime

Fair enough. I wasn't quite ready to condemn him for it anyway (as has been noted, he did try to counteract the crazy), and crying is frankly a much more logical response.

I would get the entire audience to join me in mocking the loony, but you're probably a better person than I am.

428 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:56:49pm

re: #178 Varek Raith

I'd gather up these crazies and put them on an island. Then, rename the island to 'Absurdistan'.
lolz.

Heh. That's more printable than "Dumbf**kistan", I guess.

429 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:58:24pm

re: #395 Mosh

But there is one thing that I just don't get with civil libertarians. You guys critique waterboarding, threats, and using their arachnaphobia against them. But you guys never argue an alternative interrogation method.

What should be done to interrogate terrorist suspects and would you consider it appropriate if those interrogation techniques where made available to the media?

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.

Here's the deal, the professionals knew what they were doing and had a long and distinguished history of doing it well before the inmates were put in charge of the asylum.

430 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:59:05pm

re: #426 Petero1818

Well that is exactly where I think the issue turns. What basis in law is there for this "well-known insistence". If I go out tomorrow and stab a guy in the street and yell Allahu Akbar, is that murder or terrorism. Would it change if I didn't say Allahu Akbar but had a koran in my backpack. What if there was no Koran, And what would change if I killed 3 people not 1. What if I was on a muslim chat board the night before and told some others that I was feeling an urge to hurt or kill people. What if the underwear bomber had no real connection to Al Qaeda in the Gulf, but was acting on his own, but for reasons of faith.

I am not for a second stating that Jihadi terrorism is or isnt war rather than crime, I am saying I sure as hell don't have legal guidance on the issue, nor do I think you do. And it is a very serious and slippery slope.

I'm not the go-to guy for the legal citations, that's true. I would err on the side of protecting innocent American life, and then proceed to think it not so much of an error. If a jihadist is self-dispatched, fine! I'd certainly reject any attempt to frame him into a larger conspiracy. I don't believe we are faced with the either/or choice you seem to be positing here.

BTW, you get an upding for taking the time to write a thoughtful reply to me, agree or disagree. You mentioned "your system"; may I ask your nationality?

431 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:00:34pm

re: #425 jamesfirecat

"Promote the General Welfare" does not mean that the government is supposed to take care of us. That's a loose interpretation.

I can claim and argue that waterboarding promotes the general welfare of the people that doesn't make it constitutional.

Loosely interpreting that "general welfare" line can allow us to pervert the intentions of the founders. If the founders wanted the federal government to run a public education system they would've put it into the Constitution.

432 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:03:57pm

re: #431 Mosh

"Promote the General Welfare" does not mean that the government is supposed to take care of us. That's a loose interpretation.

I can claim and argue that waterboarding promotes the general welfare of the people that doesn't make it constitutional.

Loosely interpreting that "general welfare" line can allow us to pervert the intentions of the founders. If the founders wanted the federal government to run a public education system they would've put it into the Constitution.


Where in the constitution does it give us power to have something like Social Security?

Did we need an amendment to set that sucker up?

433 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:05:21pm

re: #206 Escaped Hillbilly

I would not necessarily use the words airburshed or doctored because they imply conscious intent. I do think they avoided even addressing the issue of his motivation or his religious beliefs. I would guess it was more an institutionalized fear of being politically incorrect. I think this does an injustice to true equal opportunity because it equates irrational adherence to rigid and extreme views with more rational diversity and differences of viewpoint. I don't claim to have any special incite, but most of the military folks I've talked to seem to see it that way.

Since Cato isn't here......

I'll take your "incite" a lot more seriously when you learn how to use incite and insight correctly.

434 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:06:38pm

re: #430 The Sanity Inspector

I'm not the go-to guy for the legal citations, that's true. I would err on the side of protecting innocent American life, and then proceed to think it not so much of an error. If a jihadist is self-dispatched, fine! I'd certainly reject any attempt to frame him into a larger conspiracy. I don't believe we are faced with the either/or choice you seem to be positing here.

BTW, you get an upding for taking the time to write a thoughtful reply to me, agree or disagree. You mentioned "your system"; may I ask your nationality?

Likewise on the upding, as I always appreciate a thoughtful dialogue that does not spiral into nonsense. And you are right, public policy which includes in this case protecting lives, is always an important part of the equation that must be balanced in this discussion.
As for what we face here, I guess my point is that what we face here is only one part of it. what we face tomorrow will be decided by the legislation and jurisprudence that result from these cases. All the intelligence out there is suggesting that in the future the west will face attacks more from within then from outside. More decentralized, diffuse, and possibly with lone actors or very small groups. I believe that the recent episode on the military base is one such example.

435 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:08:12pm

re: #430 The Sanity Inspector

Oh and I am Canadian.

436 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:16:50pm

re: #429 goddamnedfrank

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.

Here's the deal, the professionals knew what they were doing and had a long and distinguished history of doing it well before the inmates were put in charge of the asylum.

Thank you. Bookmarked.

437 Quilly Mammoth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:17:20pm

re: #409 iceweasel

During a session, water may be applied up to six times for ten seconds or longer (but never more than 40 seconds). In a 24-hour period, a detainee may be subjected to up to twelve minutes of water appliaction.(sic)

Twelve minutes is 720 seconds per day that a person can be subjected to water boarding. 720 divided by 10 = 72 periods. 72 divided by six (the maximum per session) = 12. Therefore to stay in the rules the CIA could water board KSM every other hour six times in _one_ day and still be inside the law. Over two days they have completely complied.

You'll disagree, Ice Weasel, but think that the threat of people like Geller to our future far more important then what happened to KSM.

In war bad things happen, all we can do is reduce the amount of bad things...but they are still going to happen. And they should. If war wasn't terrible then it would be far too attractive. We need to do bad things to our enemies and we rely on our soldiers to know when to stop.

This generation of kids does.

Going from history we've been a pretty brutal people. So I really don't get where this "soul of our nation" is coming from. From Wounded Knee?

We're the best nation on earth but sometimes you have to do shitty things to live.

438 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:19:24pm

re: #235 iceweasel

Of course they are, and they're doing quite a good job at it too. They have decades of experience with dealing with terrorist cells and plots in the UK, predating 7/7 or 9-11. (IRA, hello?)

re: #239 torrentprime

A good thing here no one objected to surveillance, then. You do remember you were advocating deportation or imprisonment, yes?

Ah, yes. That Utopia where "radicals" live in fear of arrest, imprisonment or deportation without trial, conviction or even evidence of ant crime, and as a result learn to keep their heads down and know their place. The same measures that would be considered outrageous when applied to the white population somehow become perfectly reasonable when applied to the "furriners", One law for all my ass.

439 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:21:03pm

re: #437 Quilly Mammoth


You'll disagree, Ice Weasel, but think that the threat of people like Geller to our future far more important then what happened to KSM.

Objecting to lunatics like Geller doesn't prevent me from also objecting to torture, especially given that the torture didn't produce any actionable intelligence.

440 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:22:34pm

re: #438 Kruk

Ah, yes. That Utopia where "radicals" live in fear of arrest, imprisonment or deportation without trial, conviction or even evidence of ant crime, and as a result learn to keep their heads down and know their place. The same measures that would be considered outrageous when applied to the white population somehow become perfectly reasonable when applied to the "furriners", One law for all my ass.

We monitored loads of antiwar groups under Bush, including ones run by Quakers.

Them Quakers and their pacifist idears needs watchin', you know.

441 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:23:35pm

re: #257 sandbox

Why extend "rule of law" provisions to enemy combatants? BTW this is quite unpopular with the US public. They don't want enemy combatants to get civilian trials. The public is right.

Which is precisely why civil liberties aren't put to the popular vote. And tell me, if the US public wanted, say gun ownership banned, would you say that's the will of the people or would you claim that's an individual right no one can infringe?

442 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:24:10pm

re: #437 Quilly Mammoth

Twelve minutes is 720 seconds per day that a person can be subjected to water boarding. 720 divided by 10 = 72 periods. 72 divided by six (the maximum per session) = 12. Therefore to stay in the rules the CIA could water board KSM every other hour six times in _one_ day and still be inside the law. Over two days they have completely complied.

I suggest you try getting your news from places other than Fox.

Read the Bradbury memo, or the 2004 report from the OIG of the CIA. The CIA itself concluded they exceeded the EIT w/r/t waterboarding.

443 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:27:11pm

re: #437 Quilly Mammoth

Twelve minutes is 720 seconds per day that a person can be subjected to water boarding. 720 divided by 10 = 72 periods. 72 divided by six (the maximum per session) = 12. Therefore to stay in the rules the CIA could water board KSM every other hour six times in _one_ day and still be inside the law. Over two days they have completely complied.

You'll disagree, Ice Weasel, but think that the threat of people like Geller to our future far more important then what happened to KSM.

In war bad things happen, all we can do is reduce the amount of bad things...but they are still going to happen. And they should. If war wasn't terrible then it would be far too attractive. We need to do bad things to our enemies and we rely on our soldiers to know when to stop.

This generation of kids does.

Going from history we've been a pretty brutal people. So I really don't get where this "soul of our nation" is coming from. From Wounded Knee?

We're the best nation on earth but sometimes you have to do shitty things to live.

No we don't rely on our soldiers to know when to stop. If we did why would we have signed the Geneva Convention?

444 acacia  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:27:36pm

re: #431 Mosh

Actually, you and jamesfirecat are mirroring the arguments of a long standing debate on the meaning of the general welfare clause. The 10th amendment argument has lost steam over the years because it merely begs the question - you first have to determine what powers are with Congress before you get to what is "reserved." If you interpret the general welfare clause liberally (not ideologically speaking but usage speaking) you come to the inescapable conclusion that Congress would indeed have virtually unlimited power as it could determine for itself what is in the general welfare. Although Kelo wasn't a federal government action, the Supreme Court said that the determination of what was a "public purpose" under the takings clause was pretty much what the government (in that case a city) said it was. The Supreme Court always tries to side step the issue by finding Congressional authority in other clauses - most notably the "interstate commerce clause." That clause has been interpreted so broadly already, that as a practical matter, Congress can do just about anything anyway. The ironic thing here is that there is a ban on interstate selling of insurance so the commerce clause might not apply and the Court would then have to confront in under the general welfare clause. I think that if there hadn't been all the loose interpretation of what might "affect" interstate commerce and a general acceptance of government action in virtually every aspect of our lives, there might be a chance that the Supreme Court would say the general welfare clause was limited to carrying out other defined powers or at least has to be related to what is clearly and generally accepted to be advancing general welfare (in itself an undefinable concept). However, we've already crossed the tipping point and there is no doubt the Supreme Court would give a liberal interpretation to the general welfare clause - with even some of the more conservative justices possibly going along.

445 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:29:26pm

re: #268 Jimmah

The 711 attacks?

If you mean the 7/7 attacks - all 4 men involved in carrying out that attack were British citizens and could not have been deported.

No problem. Just deport them to "country of origin or ancestry". And their familes too. It's not like the Magna Carta or centuries of British law apply to the Darkies, now is it?

//

446 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:30:33pm

Charles,
That headline made me literally laugh out loud.**

That is truly approaching Francis E. Dec levels of crazy.

What I am sincerely interested in knowing is how many people who are politically 'motivated' (if you know what I mean) actually agree with her.

The current aw-shucks, proudly & aggressively ignorant Joe The Plumber populism mingling with the raving insane seekrit moozlim birtherism, Rick Perry fake secessionist bullshit, blatant race baiting, and openly theocratic rhetoric has me more than a little worried.

Problem is, I don't have any objective way to gauge how strong they really are. My contacts on Zeta Reticula III and Talos IV no longer answer my emails for some reason, so I can't seem to find a disinterested outsider to calibrate against.

The crazies themselves insist that they are a huge revolution just waiting to happen, but that's a given. All 'movements' do that.

The blogs and media sources that routinely point out how bizarre they are do so quite a lot, but I can't tell if that's because it really is a Big Fucking Deal, or if it's just because the crazy train never seems to stop, and is thereby an infinite source of new material. I also note that those two options are not mutually exclusive.

I haven't heard anyone make a case - credible or not - that the crazies are just a momentary spectacle; a flash in the pan that will eventually yield to more reasonable voices.

I look at what's happening in my state (Texas) with regard to the Board of Education. It's chock full of absolute idiots who routinely come up with inanity that can take your breath away, and they're trying to raise the next several generations of Americans thusly. I'm not just talking about the "intelligent design" brouhaha either.

The Texas BOE's influence extends far beyond the Texas, because many other states choose their textbooks and model their curricula after Texas'.

Hell, maybe I'm just getting my info from a perfect storm of bad influences. I read sort-of lefty stuff, sort-of rightish stuff, (l)ibertarian and (L)ibertarian stuff; there are also some British, German, and Indian sources I enjoy reading regularly. I also read lots of stuff devoted to skepticism, tech, and all the sciences, because I am a huge nerd. From all those sources, I have yet to see anyone express an interpretation of events that would suggest that there is a rational majority to be found anywhere in current American politics.

Oh, never mind. Back to American Idol with all of you. Shoo, shoo!

447 acacia  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:30:56pm

re: #439 iceweasel

"... given that the torture didn't produce any actionable intelligence."

I highly doubt that. The military and CIA are far from perfect but clearly have better things to do than "torture" people if it doesn't do any good. The reason that torture is such a hot button issue is that, sadly, it works.

448 Quilly Mammoth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:31:01pm

BTW: Kolm's comments may nave been about the Hess that was the military advisor to Hitler, or to Rudolph Hess himself. In either case it was _after_ the war was won.

Context, people, context.

449 Quilly Mammoth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:36:59pm

re: #443 jamesfirecat

No we don't rely on our soldiers to know when to stop. If we did why would we have signed the Geneva Convention?

Uhmmm, yes, we do. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Please stop before you completely make an ass out of yourself.

At every level we teach our soldiers what they can and cannot do. We rely on them...because we don't have a fucking choice...to do the right thing. That is why our soldiers, Marines and sailors are the best troops on the earth. We trust them and train them and teach them how to be leaders.

If you think that they have to have wardens...aka Political Officers...to keep them in line then you can get the hell out of my country right now.

450 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:38:25pm

re: #293 Vambo

...as opposed to the post-9/11 mentality, where everyone is out to kill us and we need to be scared at all times and hate anyone who isn't from America.

Off the top of my head, people who are far more likely to kill than a terrorist.
-the people you share the roads with
-your husband or boyfriend, current or ex (Yes, I know women kill, but men have a massive lead on the domestic killing front.)
-Family member (How many 'family destruction' killings have seen in the last year?)
-Yourself (suicide in the short term, over eating/smoking/drinking in the long.)

But heck, let's worry about the nasty bearded chaps and lose all proportion in how we respond to them instead.

451 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:38:42pm

re: #447 acacia

"... given that the torture didn't produce any actionable intelligence."

I highly doubt that. The military and CIA are far from perfect but clearly have better things to do than "torture" people if it doesn't do any good. The reason that torture is such a hot button issue is that, sadly, it works.

No, it doesn't work. We got nothing from Padilla, Zubaiyda, or KSM that wasn't already known, and we got loads of false info.
Check the TP link I gave upthread for more.

452 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:40:02pm

re: #435 Petero1818

Oh and I am Canadian.

Ah! The first Canadians I ever met were Mennonites doing their volunteer stints with Habitat for Humanity. Salt of the earth, those people, left me favorably imprinted with Canadians ever since.

Love traditional Canadian music, too...

453 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:40:12pm

re: #449 Quilly Mammoth

Banished huh? really? like big foot and Yetti?

454 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:43:04pm

re: #452 The Sanity Inspector

Ah! The first Canadians I ever met were Mennonites doing their volunteer stints with Habitat for Humanity. Salt of the earth, those people, left me favorably imprinted with Canadians ever since.

Love traditional Canadian music, too...


[Video]

Well, I am an urbanite Jew, so pretty far afield from the Mennonites, but agreed, they are a pretty good lot (if not technologically challenged//). As for the music, what traditional Canadian music are you referring to. I am actually a fan of American traditional music but have never found much in the way of Canadian. Interested though....

455 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:43:34pm

re: #268 Jimmah

The 711 attacks?

If you mean the 7/7 attacks - all 4 men involved in carrying out that attack were British citizens and could not have been deported.

Does Britain have any treason laws left on the books?

456 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:43:47pm

re: #449 Quilly Mammoth

That is why our soldiers, Marines and sailors are the best troops on the earth. We trust them and train them and teach them how to be leaders.

It's not contradictory to believe both that we have the best troops on earth, and that they are human, and as such, mistakes can be made. Especially in war.
The downding is for telling someone to 'get the hell out of the country'.
Only you said your country. That is fucked up.

457 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:44:20pm

re: #452 The Sanity Inspector

Sorry missed the video the first time. Yes indeed. Speaking of Urbanite Jews from Toronto. Gary Weinrib from down the street.

458 Quilly Mammoth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:44:27pm

re: #442 iceweasel

I suggest you try getting your news from places other than Fox.

Read the Bradbury memo, or the 2004 report from the OIG of the CIA. The CIA itself concluded they exceeded the EIT w/r/t waterboarding.

Have a link? My understanding of the report was that they exceeded the _daily_ rate. Which if you look at the "instances" is a different picture.

BTW: eight pours...but I knew I was in friendly hands. Many, many Americans..perhaps tens of thousands...who went through SERE were waterboarded over numerous sessions.

One of the lessons was that at some point you will break. This was in response to the guilt, imo, of those who came back from North Vietnam. You will break.

459 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:45:36pm

re: #458 Quilly Mammoth

Have a link?

I've already provided them in this thread, and already directed you to them.
Start with the 2004 CIA OIG report; read the 2005 Bradbury memo.

460 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:45:39pm

re: #449 Quilly Mammoth

Uhmmm, yes, we do. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Please stop before you completely make an ass out of yourself.

At every level we teach our soldiers what they can and cannot do. We rely on them...because we don't have a fucking choice...to do the right thing. That is why our soldiers, Marines and sailors are the best troops on the earth. We trust them and train them and teach them how to be leaders.

If you think that they have to have wardens...aka Political Officers...to keep them in line then you can get the hell out of my country right now.

The idea behind the Geneva convention is that we don't trust our soldiers to know when to stop, so instead we have civilians holding the chain.

We don't need commissars but we do need civilian control of the military that 's why the President is commander and chief, even with all the training we give our soldiers, we still don't let them get to make the final call.

461 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:45:44pm

re: #454 Petero1818

Love traditional Canadian music, too...


[Video]

Well, I am an urbanite Jew, so pretty far afield from the Mennonites, but agreed, they are a pretty good lot (if not technologically challenged//). As for the music, what traditional Canadian music are you referring to. I am actually a fan of American traditional music but have never found much in the way of Canadian. Interested though...

Erm, that last bit was something of a joke. Guess I could have gone with a Glenn Gould clip, instead.

462 Quilly Mammoth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:50:59pm

re: #456 iceweasel

It's not contradictory to believe both that we have the best troops on earth, and that they are human, and as such, mistakes can be made. Especially in war.
The downding is for telling someone to 'get the hell out of the country'.
Only you said your country. That is fucked up.

I guess I feel pretty possessive of it...though it's your country too. Next time I'll stop and think "get the hell out of _our_ country" :)

I get a bit het' up when people downgrade our troops. And yes, there will be incidents of crime...but in almost every instance it is the soldier, the lowest rank, that reports it. Every time. Really.

Which shows the training we give our troops.

463 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:53:13pm

re: #455 The Sanity Inspector

Does Britain have any treason laws left on the books?

Yes.

464 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:53:26pm

re: #462 Quilly Mammoth

I guess I feel pretty possessive of it...though it's your country too. Next time I'll stop and think "get the hell out of _our_ country" :)

I get a bit het' up when people downgrade our troops. And yes, there will be incidents of crime...but in almost every instance it is the soldier, the lowest rank, that reports it. Every time. Really.

Which shows the training we give our troops.

Good for them, but as a great man said "Trust but verify"

465 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:54:36pm
Most Big government programs are unconstitutional anyway. You should read "Democracy, the God That Failed".

A Constitutional Federal Republic is what our founders envisioned and I am a proud defender of that.

And yet you want to deny the protections of the Constitution to those you deem terrorists.

466 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:55:13pm

re: #462 Quilly Mammoth

I guess I feel pretty possessive of it...though it's your country too. Next time I'll stop and think "get the hell out of _our_ country" :)

I get a bit het' up when people downgrade our troops. And yes, there will be incidents of crime...but in almost every instance it is the soldier, the lowest rank, that reports it. Every time. Really.

Which shows the training we give our troops.

Yes. And abuses like Abu G came to light because of our own troops reporting them.
I get a bit pissed off when anyone assumes that all criticism of the military makes one a 'hater' of the military, just as I do whenever someone trots out the "America Love it or Leave it" trope.
It's perfectly possible to acknowledge the excesses of some in the military and condemn that, and condemn the architects of those policies, without 'hating the military' or being 'anti-military'.

467 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:00:30pm

re: #463 Jimmah

Yes.

So do we, and there's not a chance in hell they will ever be enforced anymore. How about there?

468 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:03:13pm

re: #467 The Sanity Inspector

So do we, and there's not a chance in hell they will ever be enforced anymore. How about there?

Who do you imagine they should be enforced against? Specifically.

469 Quilly Mammoth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:03:28pm

re: #460 jamesfirecat

The idea behind the Geneva convention is that we don't trust our soldiers to know when to stop, so instead we have civilians holding the chain.

We don't need commissars but we do need civilian control of the military that 's why the President is commander and chief, even with all the training we give our soldiers, we still don't let them get to make the final call.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Treaty is explicitly what Soldiers do, and what their commanders control, during war. How many other signers of the Geneva Convention have the type of control "That's why the President is commander and chief" that we Americans have, genius?

It isn't even part of their mentality. I laugh at you. You made the thing a part of America's tradition and it is an extension of Europe's tradition when they had MONARCHY. A Soverign isn't subject to the same controls that American Presidents have.

Really. Dude.You have no idea what you are talking about.

the Geneva Convention is a part of our law because the Senate ratified it. Therefore it becomes part of the UMJ. And is supervised by the military. The military has courses from basic training up to the War College about the Geneva.

The most senior enforcers of the Code are military officers. It is only when they fail and a case is brought up internationally (which we reject as a nation) that the civilian leader is brought in to account for internal enforcement measures.

It is the only treaty I know of that is really between teh military of each signoatory and not between teh civilian government.

470 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:07:54pm

re: #467 The Sanity Inspector

So do we, and there's not a chance in hell they will ever be enforced anymore. How about there?

Pretty unlikely, since they cover things like plotting to kill the king, shagging his wife etc. Relevance?

471 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:08:56pm

re: #469 Quilly Mammoth

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Treaty is explicitly what Soldiers do, and what their commanders control, during war. How many other signers of the Geneva Convention have the type of control "That's why the President is commander and chief" that we Americans have, genius?

It isn't even part of their mentality. I laugh at you. You made the thing a part of America's tradition and it is an extension of Europe's tradition when they had MONARCHY. A Soverign isn't subject to the same controls that American Presidents have.

Really. Dude.You have no idea what you are talking about.

the Geneva Convention is a part of our law because the Senate ratified it. Therefore it becomes part of the UMJ. And is supervised by the military. The military has courses from basic training up to the War College about the Geneva.

The most senior enforcers of the Code are military officers. It is only when they fail and a case is brought up internationally (which we reject as a nation) that the civilian leader is brought in to account for internal enforcement measures.

It is the only treaty I know of that is really between teh military of each signoatory and not between teh civilian government.

You know what?

Fine.

I'll admit I don't consider myself an expert on this particular matter.

I don't really even care, can we get back to important matters like why its wrong to waterboard people?

472 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:09:48pm

re: #470 Jimmah

Pretty unlikely, since they cover things like plotting to kill the king, shagging his wife etc. Relevance?

Still laughing at 'shagging his wife'. :)

I seem to recall there's also some specific provision about bringing fire into the Navy shipyard or something-- burning down the King's wooden ships, that is. Still on the books!

473 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:15:28pm

re: #470 Jimmah

Pretty unlikely, since they cover things like plotting to kill the king, shagging his wife etc. Relevance?

Wiki-- I'd forgotten about this:

Diana, Princess of Wales admitted that she had an affair with her riding instructor, James Hewitt, between 1987 and 1992. As she was then the wife of the Prince of Wales, heir to the throne, this fitted the definition of high treason, and a national newspaper briefly attempted[4][5] to have Hewitt prosecuted for what was then still a capital offence.[6]

Lol.

474 Quilly Mammoth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:19:59pm

There is one responsible party in this whole debate which has not stepped up to the plate and which has allowed this senseless debate to carry on for years. Congress.

Congress has the means to modify the UCMJ...the legal code by which the American Military operates. Right now the Geneva Code is a part of our law but there is very little _legislative_ definition of it. Instead the interpretation is left to the Executive because _it_ controls the _actions_ (not the funding) of the military.

i.e. The Congress makes law.

Right now the House of Lawyers slips around it and our nation and it's soldiers are subject to the whims of the press and the people who are often not correctly educated in the Code or the UCMJ.

Hence the whole, tiresome, issue of who is a combatant and who is not. One of the reasons that the French Resistance tied colored scarves to their arms was to make them be a member of the uniformed, local opposition and not spies...fat lot of good that did for them with the Gestapo...never the less the tradition remains.

Caught without that band and you were shoved up against a wall and shot. It just took a while longer if you had the arm band.

See how this isn't as simple as it looks? That's _one_ of the roots for the "identifying insignia" clause.

Yet Congress could end the whole thing by modifying the UCMJ by explicitly defining what an enemy combatant is.

Cowards.

475 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:20:41pm

re: #468 iceweasel

Who do you imagine they should be enforced against? Specifically.

People who commit treason against the United States, in particular those U.S. citizens who take up arms against the United States in war. Specifically, I would have approved of bringing up John Walker Lindh on those charges. I would also approve of doing the same thing with anyone else doing the same thing. I think it was merciful of the prosecutors not to pursue those charges in that case. But, if there ever gets to be a wave of American Al-Qaeda hauled into our courts, I'd prefer we get tougher with them.

476 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:22:37pm

re: #470 Jimmah

Pretty unlikely, since they cover things like plotting to kill the king, shagging his wife etc. Relevance?

I'm just thinking of all the native-born Britons who are turning up as jihadists at home and abroad, and wondering if the now-relict treason laws are applicable to them.

477 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:24:46pm

re: #475 The Sanity Inspector

People who commit treason against the United States, in particular those U.S. citizens who take up arms against the United States in war. Specifically, I would have approved of bringing up John Walker Lindh on those charges. I would also approve of doing the same thing with anyone else doing the same thing. I think it was merciful of the prosecutors not to pursue those charges in that case. But, if there ever gets to be a wave of American Al-Qaeda hauled into our courts, I'd prefer we get tougher with them.

We already have the death penalty though anyway. And people prefer the death penalty over life in a SuperMax.
I think we're handling these people just fine so far, really.

Fun bonus fact: a welshman could be convicted of treason for stealing cattle!
Other treasonous offenses in the past: being a Catholic priest; counterfeiting money or the Privy Seal.
(wiki)

478 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:25:53pm

re: #473 iceweasel

Lol.

Re: James Hewitt. I can see his defense on the treason charge now. "If he's just a tit, you must aquit."

479 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:27:58pm

re: #477 iceweasel

We already have the death penalty though anyway. And people prefer the death penalty over life in a SuperMax.
I think we're handling these people just fine so far, really.

Fun bonus fact: a welshman could be convicted of treason for stealing cattle!
Other treasonous offenses in the past: being a Catholic priest; counterfeiting money or the Privy Seal.
(wiki)

Apparently there's a city in England where you can legally kill a Scotsman and not be charged with murder, but only if he's carrying a longbow at the time.

480 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:28:34pm

re: #478 Kruk

Re: James Hewitt. I can see his defense on the treason charge now. "If he's just a tit, you must aquit."

Ha! Yes. :)

I'm scanning wiki now on treason in the UK and it has loads of interesting stuff. I haven't seen the bit about the Royal Shipyards or whatever they'd be called yet, but I swear there was some provision at one point whereby if you were there with 'an open flame' or uncovered lantern or something you could be tried for treason.

481 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:29:34pm

re: #479 Kruk

Apparently there's a city in England where you can legally kill a Scotsman and not be charged with murder, but only if he's carrying a longbow at the time.

I'll make sure ma laddie Jimmah doesn't take up archery before we visit then!

482 Kruk  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:40:52pm

re: #481 iceweasel

Found the link. Stay out of York if you're a Scottish archer, and don't let the sun go down on you in Chester if you're Welsh.

[Link: business.timesonline.co.uk...]

483 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:43:11pm

re: #482 Kruk

Found the link. Stay out of York if you're a Scottish archer, and don't let the sun go down on you in Chester if you're Welsh.

[Link: business.timesonline.co.uk...]

Oh thanks-- these are great!

25. It is illegal for a cab in the City of London to carry rabid dogs or corpses.

24. It is illegal to die in the Houses of Parliament.

23. It is an act of treason to place a postage stamp bearing the British monarch upside down

18. Royal Navy ships that enter the Port of London must provide a barrel of rum to the Constable of the Tower of London.

17. In the UK, a pregnant woman can legally relieve herself anywhere she wants – even, if she so requests, in a policeman’s helmet.

I think number 17 is my favourite so far. :)

484 Quilly Mammoth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:43:54pm

re: #482 Kruk

Found the link. Stay out of York if you're a Scottish archer, and don't let the sun go down on you in Chester if you're Welsh.

[Link: business.timesonline.co.uk...]

Got to be scared of them Scottish "Long bows"! lol!

485 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:48:45pm

re: #483 iceweasel


17. In the UK, a pregnant woman can legally relieve herself anywhere she wants – even, if she so requests, in a policeman’s helmet.

I think number 17 is my favourite so far. :)

It's pretty much a mandatory rite of passage for pregnant women in the uk. The bobbies usually take it in good humour of course. Well - it is the law - and it's their job to uphold it, even if that means getting a helmet full of the old "aqua vita" every now and then.

486 Quilly Mammoth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:56:39pm

re: #485 Jimmah

It's pretty much a mandatory rite of passage for pregnant women in the uk. The bobbies usually take it in good humour of course. Well - it is the law - and it's their job to uphold it, even if that means getting a helmet full of the old "aqua vita" every now and then.

I thought that was an urban legend. That's kinda cool...in a gross sort of way.

487 Vambo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:14:31pm

re: #450 Kruk

Off the top of my head, people who are far more likely to kill than a terrorist.
-the people you share the roads with
-your husband or boyfriend, current or ex (Yes, I know women kill, but men have a massive lead on the domestic killing front.)
-Family member (How many 'family destruction' killings have seen in the last year?)
-Yourself (suicide in the short term, over eating/smoking/drinking in the long.)

But heck, let's worry about the nasty bearded chaps and lose all proportion in how we respond to them instead.

exactly.

and anyway, the people who thought "America [was] invincible" and that "It Could Never Happen Here" are COMPLETE EFFING MORONS - it already did happen here, and quite a few times in NYC, and even though 9/11 easily had the highest body count this isn't about "my terrorist attack is bigger than your terrorist attack". And anyone who thought the country (any country, or any person for that matter) is "invincible" needs to step out of their fairy tale and take a walk in the real world.

488 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 5:26:43am

re: #481 iceweasel

I'll make sure ma laddie Jimmah doesn't take up archery before we visit then!

Trust yow no Skott, for they wyll yowse flatterynge wordes, and all ys falshode.
-- a medieval bishop to an English king, too hurried to look it up now

489 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:25:16am

re: #302 sandbox

GAZE.

490 Bulldoglover100  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:20:02am

No one with any credibility listens to Geller. She's a joke but is trying to pull in the tea bag wack jobs that keep FOX on top in the ratings.

491 grim traveler  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:36:51pm

About 400 comments on this thread saying she's a whack job, crazypants, etc. blah blah, blah... we got it. Not one shedding any light on why Mr. Hassan-hole was allowed by anybody-who should have known better and had the balls to say it-to stand in that room with a gun in his hand, and a vision of virgins in his head. Why was this allowed to happen? Since she's so wrong, what is the answer?

492 hutchrun  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:09:56pm

We Indians think that the US has a lot to learn:

US Being Sucked into Pakistan’s World of Illusions

The leaders and large sections of the people of Pakistan tend to live in a self-created world of illusions. They have always lived in such a world ever since the birth of the country in 1947.

2. They teach their children in school that civilization was brought to the sub-continent by Islam. They grow up not knowing the history of the sub-continent before the advent of Islam

3. They have always believed that one Muslim is equal to two Hindus. They teach their soldiers that Hindus cannot fight. They believed that their alliance with the US and the US military equipment supplied to them had made them invincible and that India would never be able to defeat them. They invaded Kashmir in 1965 thinking that Kashmir was theirs for the taking.

4. After a few days of fighting they realized that it was not. They realised too that Hindus can fight-----like hell. They found that all the Patton tanks and other modern equipment given to them by the US could not save them from the counter-attacks by the Indian Army. They fled from battle at Khem Karan after abandoning their Pattons.

5. But, they teach their children and soldiers that they won the 1965 war and that they forced India to sue for peace.
[Link: southasiaanalysis.org...]

493 Bulldoglover100  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:29:55pm

re: #491 grim traveler

The answer? Let her sink her self. It appears to be the only service she gives the American people. The fact that 76% of this country thinks she is incapable of leading tends to lend one to the thought that posts/articles such as this are working. Her lies upon lies upon lies are growing old.,,,,,,,,


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