John Birch Society Rides Again at CPAC

WeirdDecember 2009 • Views: 8,159

This is really going to hurt the Republican Party.

Last week I noted that one of the cosponsors for the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in 2010 will be the whacked out John Birch Society, once ostracized by William F. Buckley and other sane conservatives but now brought back into the mainstream by Glenn Beck, Ron Paul, and a “conservative” movement of angry tea bag nutjobs gone totally off the rails.

On MSNBC, Rachel Maddow has been covering this ugly development; here she talks with Wall Street Journal columnist Thomas Frank about the Birchers and their appalling heritage of conspiracy theories and paranoia.

If I still had any allegiance to the GOP, I’d probably be upset. But at this point, the only emotion I have left is amusement. This is where the conservative movement has been heading ever since Barack Obama was elected, and now they’re finally arriving at the black helicopter landing pad.

And not a single GOP politician or right wing blogger has so much as blinked at the news that they’ll be sharing CPAC with this group of creeps, creationists, racists, and extremists. This CPAC is going to be a hoot.

Youtube Video

Also see

John Birch Society to Cosponsor CPAC 2010

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394 comments

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:16:23pm

I really hope that National Review catches on to this and denounces the Birchers. I'm not holding my breath, but I am hoping.

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:17:01pm

John Birch Society Rides Again at CPAC

Ride My Pony

MP3 Audio

- Genuinne

Sharmuta Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:17:32pm

I don't find the prospect of only one viable political party amusing at all.

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:17:38pm

Sad to see. I really thought the Republican Party was smarter than this.
SIGH.

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:18:30pm

Birchers and truthers and nirthers and deathers and black helicopters and deniers of all stripes...

Anti-science and anti-reason.

It becomes so very oppressive that this much crazy has this much effect. And to what end?

Is fighting for Exxon so dear to you? Is fighting for insurance companies that dear to you? Why would the average person give this the time of day?

The only answer I can have for it is fear of losing lilly white America. It has to be just the culture shock of living in a world where being a bible banging moron form the medieval period just does not carry the weight it used to.

Mark Pennington Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:19:10pm

And not a single GOP politician or right wing blogger has so much as blinked at the news that they’ll be sharing CPAC with this group of creeps, creationists, racists, and extremists.

That's because they are on the same page.

A lot of people out there have no clue what the JBS is about. I'm glad to see Rachel (and you) educating the public about them.

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:19:17pm

re: #4 Floral Giraffe

Sad to see. I really thought the Republican Party was smarter than this.
SIGH.

Nah, they sold their souls a while ago. They are going to march lemming like down this path. They think it sells.

Mocking Jay Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:20:17pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

I don't find the prospect of only one viable political party amusing at all.

I'm sure OJoe would love to have some words with you.

Mich-again Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:20:48pm

The Birchers weekly newsletter is called the American Free Press. Don't be misled by the watered down version online. The paper version is a steaming pile of blatant Antisemitism including David Duke diatribes, all sorts of conspiracy theories particularly those involving Zionists and bankers and 9/11, anti-vax bullshit,

Heck the November 23rd version I am looking at right now has a story with the headline "Was Fort Hood 'Killer' a Victim of Covert Mind Controllers?" Guess what that story is about.

The fact that the same people who put out this crap every week are sponsoring, let alone invited into a GOP related event is the death knell for the party.

They are completely batshit crazy.

jaunte Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:25:32pm

Fluoridated drinking water flows into Science Tyranny.
The dots... they connect...

Mich-again Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:26:12pm

The Birchers wonder aloud.. Was Fort Hood 'Killer' a Victim of Covert Mind Controllers?

In this context, was the Fort Hood massacre actually an occult, subliminally based mind-control operation meant to signify an internal battle between warring secret society members? Since initial reports mentioned multiple shooters, could “hit men” or disgruntled soldiers have been used to further promote a neocon anti-Islamic agenda, while at the same time trying to conceal our military’s growing discontent by blaming it on an “Arab fanatic”?

Behold the intellectual compass for the new GOP.

Egregious Philbin Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:26:50pm

Free Republic is boycotting CPAC because a (gasp) gay Republican group will be there.

And, the newest:

FR anti-catholic expose looming

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:27:19pm

re: #5 LudwigVanQuixote

I think many people are just scared of change.
It means thinking hard, and making new decisions.
And, it's scary.
Especially if you are unemployed, or afraid of becoming unemployed.
BIG, scary choices.

Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:27:22pm

re: #9 Mich-again

The Birchers weekly newsletter is called the American Free Press. Don't be misled by the watered down version online. The paper version is a steaming pile of blatant Antisemitism including David Duke diatribes, all sorts of conspiracy theories particularly those involving Zionists and bankers and 9/11, anti-vax bullshit,

I was reading something there just this morning. It struck me as odd so I googled and figured out it's a Birch Society outlet.

freetoken Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:28:17pm

re: #9 Mich-again

Not to defend the devil here, but isn't the man (Mike Piper) behind The American Free Press now anti-JBS? Apparently the JBS wasn't pure enough for him.

Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:28:22pm

OT: An American Airlines flight from Miami to Kingston, Jamaica has crashed during landing in a rainstorm. No news yet on how bad it really is, but they are saying that the aircraft broke in half...

[Link: www.miamiherald.com...]

Not good for news for the families trying to get together for the holidays, lets hope it isn't as disastrous as it sounds so far.

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:28:47pm

re: #11 Mich-again

The Birchers wonder aloud..
[...]
Behold the intellectual compass for the new GOP.

They are slipping in the cracks, hardly the new GOP

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:29:48pm

re: #15 freetoken

Not to defend the devil here, but isn't the man (Mike Piper) behind The American Free Press now anti-JBS? Apparently the JBS wasn't pure enough for him.

Now, THAT's scary.
Whacko's to the left of me, whacko's to the right! Stuck in the middle with you!

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:30:35pm

re: #11 Mich-again

The Birchers wonder aloud.. Was Fort Hood 'Killer' a Victim of Covert Mind Controllers?

Behold the intellectual compass for the new GOP.

I've known a couple of people that read things like that. They were both entirely crazy politically, though neither of them were the sort of viscous assholes that birchers tend to be.

Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:31:03pm

Conservatives should take note of the pure glee in her voice while giving this report. The Birch Society, Glenn Beck and the Tea Parties are gifts to the progressives beyond anything they could reasonably hope for.

McSpiff Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:31:22pm

re: #12 Egregious Philbin

Free Republic is boycotting CPAC because a (gasp) gay Republican group will be there.

And, the newest:

FR anti-catholic expose looming

I forgot how awesomely horrible FR is. Thanks, now i need a shower.

badger1970 Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:33:29pm

The party I grew up on, debated for and gave sweat towards has kicked my ass to the curb. Damn it! I can no longer call myself conservative in public without being associated with these well-dressed turds. *sigh*

KingKenrod Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:34:22pm

Marco Rubio is set to give the CPAC keynote address. Someone should ask Marco Rubio what he thinks about giving speeches to Birchers.

And these speakers too:
Amb. John Bolton*, Andrew Breitbart*, Herman Cain*, Ann Coulter*, Hon. Newt Gingrich, Doug Hoffman*, Hon. Mike Huckabee, Gov. Bobby Jindal, David Keene*, Wayne LaPierre*, Mark Levin*, Rush Limbaugh, Gov.-elect Bob McDonnell, Hon. Sarah Palin (Invited, Not Confirmed), Rep. Ron Paul, Gov. Tim Pawlenty*, Hon. Mitt Romney*

Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:34:55pm

re: #17 Bagua

They are slipping in the cracks, hardly the new GOP

I have to disagree. Look at pretty much any right wing web site, they're all pushing the same conspiracies about World Government and secret socialist plots. Fox News brodcasts this 24 hours hours a day. Conservatives fear Healthcare reform because it's a secret plot to kill people and destroy the country. This is the core of the Republican party these days.

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:35:06pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

And there is just SO MUCH of this circulating on the internet, think junk emails, how do you counter this, irrational BS, in a rational way?
Seriously, I TRY to rationally respond to every "the death panels" or whatever racist email of the day, some "friend" sends. But it's ENDLESS.
I truly do not think the "information age" has lived up to it's name so far.

Well, except, I found LGF!
LOL!

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:35:27pm

re: #22 badger1970

The party I grew up on, debated for and gave sweat towards has kicked my ass to the curb. Damn it! I can no longer call myself conservative in public without being associated with these well-dressed turds. *sigh*

Calling Birchers turds is an insult to turds. Turds can be processed into fertilizer or dried and then burned for fuel. Birchers have no positive uses whatsoever.

Mocking Jay Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:35:29pm

re: #23 KingKenrod

It's like Fox News Live. Mark Levin. Uch.

Randall Gross Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:35:55pm

re: #9 Mich-again

The Birchers weekly newsletter is called the American Free Press. Don't be misled by the watered down version online. The paper version is a steaming pile of blatant Antisemitism including David Duke diatribes, all sorts of conspiracy theories particularly those involving Zionists and bankers and 9/11, anti-vax bullshit,

Heck the November 23rd version I am looking at right now has a story with the headline "Was Fort Hood 'Killer' a Victim of Covert Mind Controllers?" Guess what that story is about.

The fact that the same people who put out this crap every week are sponsoring, let alone invited into a GOP related event is the death knell for the party.

They are completely batshit crazy.

Since it's not online can you do us a favor and scan some of the crazy parts of that issue and email them to C?

Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:36:21pm

re: #16 ausador

OT AGAIN: Hmm...now they say that everyone is fine, maybe a little Christmas miracle? (lol, from the plane splitting in half to this in five minutes?)

MIAMI - An American Airlines spokesman says a flight from Miami has overshot the runway in Kingston, Jamaica, but came to a safe stop. He says there are no reports of injuries or fatalities.
Charley Wilson says all passengers are off Flight 331. It took off from Miami International Airport Tuesday evening. He says it was almost a full flight. He says normally a flight carries 140 passengers plus the crew.

He says more information was not available.

Mocking Jay Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:36:31pm

re: #25 Floral Giraffe

I think we've moved into the MisInformation Age.

Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:36:35pm

The Paulians are also having their own forum at CPAC this year with includes speeches against Abraham Lincoln ending slavery.
/Not kidding, wish I was.

Mich-again Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:37:11pm

I'm trying to figure out who is the "writer based in Virginia" who writes for the American Free Press under the pen name "Antonius J. Patrick"

Just wondering who is it that has to hide their identity so they can say what they really think. I'm guessing the pen name is a clue.

Mocking Jay Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:37:11pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

The Paulians are also having their own forum at CPAC this year with includes speeches against Abraham Lincoln ending slavery.
/Not kidding, wish I was.

Please oh please let there be video.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:37:18pm

I fucking love Rachel Maddow, she's the only cable news host I can stand anymore. Class act, Rhodes Scholar, well-researched, witty without being nasty.

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:37:27pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

The Paulians are also having their own forum at CPAC this year with includes speeches against Abraham Lincoln ending slavery.
/Not kidding, wish I was.

Wow...

Stonemason Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:37:43pm

How is this any different than Code Pink or Moveon sponsoring something on the left?

Oh, and if I cared about Cpac, or was in any way affiliated I would ask the JBS to take a hike, too freaky for my taste.

I'm just curious 'cause the left wing loonies won last year, they didn't hide the nut cases, they employed them to get out the vote.

Just how is it different is all I ask. Loons on the left, loons on the right...

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:37:48pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Youtube Video

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:38:34pm

re: #22 badger1970

The party I grew up on, debated for and gave sweat towards has kicked my ass to the curb. Damn it! I can no longer call myself conservative in public without being associated with these well-dressed turds. *sigh*

So take back your party. If rank and file Republicans wrote their congress critter that they liked things like keeping church and state separate, science respectful politics with more ideas than just shouting no and actual fiscal responsibility, they might get it.

I really hope you guys do.

Despite claims to the contrary by certain more hard right lizards I am not a Dem. I wnat to see two viable political parties. Right now, I see one party with anyone I could vote for and another where the leading contenders are either dumber than dirt, creationist, anti-science, anti reason and sometimes racist conspiracy mongers who pander to the worst instincts of America or some combination of all of that.

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:38:48pm

re: #34 WindUpBird

I fucking love Rachel Maddow, she's the only cable news host I can stand anymore. Class act, Rhodes Scholar, well-researched, witty without being nasty.

Who is Rachel Maddow?

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:39:02pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

The Paulians are also having their own forum at CPAC this year with includes speeches against Abraham Lincoln ending slavery.
/Not kidding, wish I was.

Utter and complete insanity. How can that even be allowed there?

[facepalm]

Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:39:05pm

re: #25 Floral Giraffe

It's been overwhelming but it's some instinctual impulse they simply couldn't resist. We still have people flouncing at LGF over not covering the latest right wing conspiracy theory. There's no end in sight.

Mich-again Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:39:43pm

re: #28 Thanos
Yeah I'll get around to that over the holidays.

Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:39:57pm

re: #33 JasonA

Please oh please let there be video.

There will be. The lefties are all over this.

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:40:01pm

If I still had any allegiance to the GOP, I’d probably be upset.

I do, and "upset" doesn't even come anywhere close to describe how angry and disgusted I am with this current trend in the GOP.

My allegiance, however, does not guarantee a party line vote from me. I'll vote third party, or even democrat, before I vote for a republican that endorses this shit.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:40:13pm

re: #27 JasonA

It's like Fox News Live. Mark Levin. Uch.

Have you noticed Mark Levin's hack radio host signature technique? He gets all cartoonishly indignant, then he brings out the soft voice question, LOUD VOICE RESPONSE! soft voice question, LOUD VOICE RESPONSE! whenever he wants to punctuate his rhetoric. He also hates Michael Savage. Why? Because he's trying to do Michael Savage's schtick, but he's worse at it. Michael Savage, for all that his ideas are often looney-tunes, is at least a great technical broadcaster.

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:40:30pm

re: #36 Stonemason

How about no loons at all in positions of power? How about having sanity prevail?

/I know its unlikely, but it's what I'd like for Christmas.

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:40:32pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

I have to disagree. Look at pretty much any right wing web site, they're all pushing the same conspiracies about World Government and secret socialist plots. Fox News brodcasts this 24 hours hours a day. Conservatives fear Healthcare reform because it's a secret plot to kill people and destroy the country. This is the core of the Republican party these days.

And it is all a sham. The average American owes nothing to insurance companies or Exxon.

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:41:44pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

The Paulians are also having their own forum at CPAC this year with includes speeches against Abraham Lincoln ending slavery.
/Not kidding, wish I was.

PLEASE tell me that isn't true?
PLEASE?
( I know, KT don't lie, but, well, SHIT!)
There, you made me swear.
It's THAT disgusting.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:41:45pm

re: #39 NJDhockeyfan

Who is Rachel Maddow?

Um...here!

MSNBC Video

[Link: www.rachelmaddow.com...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Mocking Jay Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:42:03pm

re: #45 WindUpBird

I can't stand Levin's whiny voice. It kills me. And all he does is ridicule people who don't agree with him. Savage? He's probably more repugnant but you are right, he's much better at his thing.

badger1970 Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:42:24pm

re: #38 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks for the pep talk.

Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:42:43pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

I found it last week as a Paulian email list. They're selling tickets (through a Ron Paul site) but I haven't found an official listing for the forum from CPAC. Normally I'd think they'll come to their senses and cancel the Paulian forum but the way things are today I think they'll let it go through.

Charles Johnson Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:42:47pm

Maddow is promising an in-depth exposé of the JBS tomorrow night, after they sent her an angry email saying she was "lying" about them.

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:43:04pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

Utter and complete insanity. How can that even be allowed there?

[facepalm]

[facedesk] seems more appropriate for this Ronulan BS. :/

Egregious Philbin Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:43:24pm

re: #50 JasonA

Levin is horrible, high pitch nasal whining, in my market they replaced the witty and funny and listenable Dennis Miller with this screecher.

No thanks.

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:43:32pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

The Paulians are also having their own forum at CPAC this year with includes speeches against Abraham Lincoln ending slavery.
/Not kidding, wish I was.

Yeah, being pro slavery... that isn't racist...

How can anyone not see through that?

To think they really are that fucking crazy... but honestly once you start going pro slavery you are no longer crazy. You have crossed the line into evil.

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:43:41pm

I heart Rachel Maddow! God bless her!

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:44:08pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

I have to disagree. Look at pretty much any right wing web site, they're all pushing the same conspiracies about World Government and secret socialist plots. Fox News brodcasts this 24 hours hours a day. Conservatives fear Healthcare reform because it's a secret plot to kill people and destroy the country. This is the core of the Republican party these days.

There are a lot of cracks, but that dose not equal "the core".

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:44:43pm

re: #53 Charles

Maddow is promising an in-depth exposé of the JBS tomorrow night, after they sent her an angry email saying she was "lying" about them.

And, won't THAT be fun!

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:45:12pm

re: #50 JasonA

I can't stand Levin's whiny voice. It kills me. And all he does is ridicule people who don't agree with him. Savage? He's probably more repugnant but you are right, he's much better at his thing.

I'm sort of a talk radio dork, I like the idea of it as a medium. The thing with Savage is he's always entertaining. Even when he's going bonkers.

The best radio host on earth is still Phil Hendrie. Imagine a man hosting a show, and he has guests. But the guests...are all him. Even the female guests! He does both sides of the conversation with the mic in one hand and a phone in the other. And he baits people into calling in who believe the character guest is a real person. He is an almost supernaturally talented broadcaster.

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:45:12pm

re: #47 LudwigVanQuixote

And it is all a sham. The average American owes nothing to insurance companies or Exxon.

Other than our prosperity, health and modern way of life.

Stonemason Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:45:30pm

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

How about no loons at all in positions of power? How about having sanity prevail?

/I know its unlikely, but it's what I'd like for Christmas.

I agree with that, but that is in the hands of the people. It is up to us to ensure the loons do not get elected, but somehow they do. Last spring, the more viable candidate for President from the left was trounced by a smooth talker who was being pushed by the lunatic fringe of the Democrat party, the lunatic fringe on the right pushed for Ron Paul...

When it comes down to it, the right votes with some thought, the left, not so much.

Now, that being said, where are the fiscal conservative, socially intelligent politicians?

Charles Johnson Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:46:28pm

re: #62 Stonemason

I agree with that, but that is in the hands of the people. It is up to us to ensure the loons do not get elected, but somehow they do. Last spring, the more viable candidate for President from the left was trounced by a smooth talker who was being pushed by the lunatic fringe of the Democrat party, the lunatic fringe on the right pushed for Ron Paul...

When it comes down to it, the right votes with some thought, the left, not so much.

Now, that being said, where are the fiscal conservative, socially intelligent politicians?

If you think Barack Obama represented the "lunatic fringe" of the Democratic Party, you're living in a fantasy world.

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:46:39pm

re: #61 Bagua

Other than our prosperity, health and modern way of life.

Yes yes yes... tell that to the thousands denied care by their insurance companies and the Saudis. They love our way of life.

We could do both differently and it would be better.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:47:38pm

re: #55 Egregious Philbin

Levin is horrible, high pitch nasal whining, in my market they replaced the witty and funny and listenable Dennis Miller with this screecher.

No thanks.

I liked Dennis Miller from SNL, monday night football and Bordello of Blood, but I didn't ever like his radio show with his AGW-denying, laughing-at-his-own-jokes thing. But man, I'd dance a jig for Dennis Miller before I'd listen to an hour of Mark Levin.

Egregious Philbin Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:47:47pm

re: #60 WindUpBird

I love Hendrie...but, in my market, they just took him off, for Dave Ramsey (the Hillbilly finance show). What crap! 3 hours of "Dave...I got to pay off my trailer rent, but I want to go to the Toby Keith concert, and Brandean still needs her rabies shots...whut do I do?"

Crap

Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:48:17pm

re: #48 Floral Giraffe

Tis true: CPAC LIBERTY FORUM

Thomas DiLorenzo will be giving anti-Lincoln speeches and signing his anti-Lincoln books.

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:48:30pm

re: #56 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah, being pro slavery... that isn't racist...

How can anyone not see through that?

To think they really are that fucking crazy... but honestly once you start going pro slavery you are no longer crazy. You have crossed the line into evil.

Quite concur. Anyone who speaks at a forum which allows speechs defending slavery is guilty of moral blindness at best and racist evil as a rule.

As always, this is my standard answer to the Neo-Confederates who think this sort of thing is The Cat's Meow:

Youtube Video

Mocking Jay Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:48:40pm

re: #63 Charles

If you think Barack Obama represented the "lunatic fringe" of the Democratic Party, you're living in a fantasy world.

If Kucinich had won I might agree with him. But then, he never had a shot because he's on the fringe...

badger1970 Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:48:49pm

re: #58 Bagua

There are a lot of cracks, but that dose not equal "the core".

The "core" is being awfully quiet. The GOP leadership is pandering big time by giving a forum to the religious and racist right while holding their palm out for my money.

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:48:52pm

re: #63 Charles

If you think Barack Obama represented the "lunatic fringe" of the Democratic Party, you're living in a fantasy world.

He's pissed off the lunatic fringe lately but he did use them to get elected.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:49:53pm

re: #66 Egregious Philbin

I love Hendrie...but, in my market, they just took him off, for Dave Ramsey (the Hillbilly finance show). What crap! 3 hours of "Dave...I got to pay off my trailer rent, but I want to go to the Toby Keith concert, and Brandean still needs her rabies shots...whut do I do?"

Crap

Your handle on LGF is AWESOME :D

I have Hendrie in my market but I still subscribe to his site and load the podcasts on my MP3 player. It's like $7 a month! The easiest money you'll ever spend.

Mark Pennington Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:50:23pm

re: #69 JasonA

If Kucinich had won I might agree with him. But then, he never had a shot because he's on the fringe...

I always use him as an example of the fringe. Charles is right, anyone who thinks Obama listens to the lunatic fringe isn't paying attention.

Randall Gross Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:50:25pm

re: #42 Mich-again

Thanks -- for many people seeing is believing.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:50:59pm

re: #71 NJDhockeyfan

He's pissed off the lunatic fringe lately but he did use them to get elected.

Just like Bush used maniac evangelical dominionists to get elected and re-elected. This is politics, now and forever, laid bare and totally obvious.

Mocking Jay Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:51:09pm

re: #73 beekiller

I always use him as an example of the fringe. Charles is right, anyone who thinks Obama listens to the lunatic fringe isn't paying attention.

Sometimes I like him, sometimes I wish the aliens had kept him...

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:51:22pm

re: #64 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes yes yes... tell that to the thousands denied care by their insurance companies and the Saudis. They love our way of life.

We could do both differently and it would be better.

Of course there are many exceptions, but on balance modern day Americans have it a lot better than they realise, and modern day humans have it much better than their ancestors.

Not that that we two couldn't couldn't do it better ourselves once we settled who gets which lever.

Mark Winter Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:51:24pm

And I thought General Jack D. Ripper was a movie character:

I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Learned something new today. Maybe there REALLY is something in the water Birchers drink.

Stonemason Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:51:58pm

re: #63 Charles

No, Barack was supported by the lunatics in the party. He represented what he thought was a mildly left of center position, a newcomer. He was pushed over the top by the fringe though, that can not be argued, there were many nights where I lurked here and the posts were all chuckles about how the fringe was going to be his downfall.

Hillary didn't excite the fringe, Barack did.

The fringe is bad, my point is that the right wing usually ignores the fringe (I know, except for abortion) and in that way the right loses elections.

The right needs to move a little center in things social.

Just my opinion.

Mark Pennington Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:52:24pm

re: #76 JasonA

Sometimes I like him, sometimes I wish the aliens had kept him...

lmao!

Egregious Philbin Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:52:29pm

re: #72 WindUpBird

Your handle on LGF is AWESOME :D

I have Hendrie in my market but I still subscribe to his site and load the podcasts on my MP3 player. It's like $7 a month! The easiest money you'll ever spend.

Ah, but, if you sign up for the hendrie site on Facebook, you get many hours of classic bits for free every day..and its run by fans.

BTW, Philbin is my Irish surname (by way of my father's mother)

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:53:09pm

re: #78 Mark Winter

And I thought General Jack D. Ripper was a movie character:

Learned something new today. Maybe there REALLY is something in the water Birchers drink.

They mix 1 tablespoon of Pure Crazy into every gallon of water they drink.

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:53:20pm

re: #79 Stonemason

The GOP is doing anything but ignoring the fringe!

Mocking Jay Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:53:47pm

re: #79 Stonemason

The fringe is bad, my point is that the right wing usually ignores the fringe (I know, except for abortion) and in that way the right loses elections.

If that were true Huckabee wouldn't have gotten as far as he did.

Stonemason Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:53:49pm

re: #73 beekiller

I did not say he listens to them, he used them, they flocked to him.

The right fringe flocked to Paul and never moved like the Kucinich bunch did.

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:55:16pm

re: #70 badger1970

The "core" is being awfully quiet. The GOP leadership is pandering big time by giving a forum to the religious and racist right while holding their palm out for my money.

Well if I turn out to be wrong it will be an unpleasant surprise, but I expect the party will shake out a bit of its fringe.

It doesn't much matter, unless the Democrats manage to legislate a "permanent" majority the likely result will be a swing of the pendulum and we'll end up with whomever wins the primary.

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:56:08pm

re: #36 Stonemason

How is this any different than Code Pink or Moveon sponsoring something on the left?

Oh, and if I cared about Cpac, or was in any way affiliated I would ask the JBS to take a hike, too freaky for my taste.

I'm just curious 'cause the left wing loonies won last year, they didn't hide the nut cases, they employed them to get out the vote.

Just how is it different is all I ask. Loons on the left, loons on the right...

Not that argument again. If you look at things as "loons on the left" and "loons on the right" that leads to apathy. In fact it is an apathetic response. So if MoveOn was a sponsor of some left leaning events does one shrug their shoulders and ignore the John Birch Society and vice versa?

Stonemason Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:57:07pm

re: #83 Varek Raith

Yes, now. And it is a mistake to do so. Or at least it is a mistake to be so damn accepting of organizations like the JBS.

I am not asking the right to embrace the fringe, I am pointing out that the fringe is what gave Mr. Obama the Presidency because the fringe is what pushed him past Hillary.

The Mongoose Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:57:19pm

Ugh.

Buckley's writings solidified my beliefs when I was younger. Now the movement he helped define is being overrun by people he held in total contempt.

The pendulum will swing back. Sanity and rationality will guide American conservatism again. But it might be a long time.

Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:57:20pm

re: #79 Stonemason

No, Barack was supported by the lunatics in the party. He represented what he thought was a mildly left of center position, a newcomer. He was pushed over the top by the fringe though, that can not be argued, there were many nights where I lurked here and the posts were all chuckles about how the fringe was going to be his downfall.

Hillary didn't excite the fringe, Barack did.

The fringe is bad, my point is that the right wing usually ignores the fringe (I know, except for abortion) and in that way the right loses elections.

The right needs to move a little center in things social.

Just my opinion.

Wow, you...uhh...do live on the planet called Earth don't you?

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:57:21pm

re: #85 Stonemason

They problem is that much of the party seems to have decided to cluster around Luap Nor. They are trying to cultivate his crazy tea partiers, rather than do the smart thing and kick them to the curb.

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:57:31pm

re: #87 Gus 802

Hooray!
Gus 802 is on the job!
Smack*Bam* Boom* Ouchie!

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:58:37pm

re: #89 The Mongoose

Ugh.

Buckley's writings solidified my beliefs when I was younger. Now the movement he helped define is being overrun by people he held in total contempt.

The pendulum will swing back. Sanity and rationality will guide American conservatism again. But it might be a long time.

From your lips to God's ears, Mongoose.

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:58:42pm

The really sad part?

While the right continues to implode from within, no one is noticing democrats spending money like they won the lottery! Only they didn't win the lottery. They are spending your kids' kids money.

Enough!

Can someone please cut up their credit cards?

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:58:59pm

re: #92 Floral Giraffe

Hooray!
Gus 802 is on the job!
Smack*Bam* Boom* Ouchie!

-insert 'in bed' comment here-
/in bed
:P

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 9:59:02pm

re: #92 Floral Giraffe

Hooray!
Gus 802 is on the job!
Smack*Bam* Boom* Ouchie!

Only about one hour left to go!

Stonemason Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:00:14pm

re: #87 Gus 802

Noooooo.....I in no way am saying it is right, or in anyway should be ignored.

I am not arguing for accepting this, I am asking why no one points out that left wing groups support murderous thugs and still sponsor main stream functions.

JBS would not be on my list of sponsors and when I run, I will not take money from them, or groups like them.

Sheesh.

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:00:54pm

re: #94 Racer X

The really sad part?

While the right continues to implode from within, no one is noticing democrats spending money like they won the lottery! Only they didn't win the lottery. They are spending your kids' kids money.

Enough!

Can someone please cut up their credit cards?

The scissors needed to cut up their credit cards are not available. The Republicans are too busy running with those scissors to use them.

bratwurst Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:00:57pm

re: #65 WindUpBird

But man, I'd dance a jig for Dennis Miller before I'd listen to an hour of Mark Levin.

I am so with you. Levin is clearly a bright guy, but he is an awful AWFUL broadcaster. Savage is batshit insane (having SWORN to have read the secret plans for Chinese communists to invade this country to breed with white women, etc), but has more education than the rest of the right wing radio pundits put together and is a natural behind the mike.

100

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:02:27pm

re: #62 Stonemason

When it comes down to it, the right votes with some thought, the left, not so much.

What? Wow.

You are not.

paying.

attention.

101

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:02:33pm

re: #96 Gus 802

Only about one hour left to go!

Until???!???

WHat're you gonna turn into
THIS TIME?

102

Mark Pennington Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:02:47pm

re: #88 Stonemason

Yes, now. And it is a mistake to do so. Or at least it is a mistake to be so damn accepting of organizations like the JBS.

I am not asking the right to embrace the fringe, I am pointing out that the fringe is what gave Mr. Obama the Presidency because the fringe is what pushed him past Hillary.

Okay, well thanks for pointing out what got Obama elected according to you. I'm not sure what that has to do with the right mainstreaming their kooks.

103

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:03:11pm

re: #94 Racer X

The really sad part?

While the right continues to implode from within, no one is noticing democrats spending money like they won the lottery! Only they didn't win the lottery. They are spending your kids' kids money.

Enough!

Can someone please cut up their credit cards?

Do you really think so, because by my accounting the Dems have a real long way to go to compete with the deficits created by Bush, Bush and Reagan.

The GOP has not been a party of fiscal responsibility for over 40 years.

104

Stonemason Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:03:13pm

re: #90 ausador

Pardon me? What about that statement was wrong?

I think the right needs to get away from the likes of the JBS on social issues, is that where the problem lies? I don't fit the mold?

105

Randall Gross Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:03:23pm

This is terribly disappointing and depressing. I'm going to go watch some Nova re runs to cheer myself back up. G'nite all and remember there's really only two shopping days left.

Image: 3-days-away.jpg

106

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:03:44pm

re: #97 Stonemason

Nooo...I in no way am saying it is right, or in anyway should be ignored.

I am not arguing for accepting this, I am asking why no one points out that left wing groups support murderous thugs and still sponsor main stream functions.

JBS would not be on my list of sponsors and when I run, I will not take money from them, or groups like them.

Sheesh.

Please, DO let us know if you decide to run.
When & where.
And your platforms.
We'll let you know about the support thingy.

107

Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:04:15pm

re: #105 Thanos

Nice. Merry Christmas.

108

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:04:20pm

re: #97 Stonemason

Nooo...I in no way am saying it is right, or in anyway should be ignored.

I am not arguing for accepting this, I am asking why no one points out that left wing groups support murderous thugs and still sponsor main stream functions.

JBS would not be on my list of sponsors and when I run, I will not take money from them, or groups like them.

Sheesh.

The topic is the John Birch Society and CPAC. It is not "what the left is doing" or what they've done.

109

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:04:27pm

re: #88 Stonemason

Yes, now. And it is a mistake to do so. Or at least it is a mistake to be so damn accepting of organizations like the JBS.

I am not asking the right to embrace the fringe, I am pointing out that the fringe is what gave Mr. Obama the Presidency because the fringe is what pushed him past Hillary.

By the fringe you mean everyone younger than you, hahaha

110

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:04:49pm

re: #101 Floral Giraffe

Until???!???

WHat're you gonna turn into
THIS TIME?

I haven't decided yet. ;)

Maybe a tree.

111

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:04:59pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

Do you really think so, because by my accounting the Dems have a real long way to go to compete with the deficits created by Bush, Bush and Reagan.

The GOP has not been a party of fiscal responsibility for over 40 years.

Yes. I really think so.

A trillion here, a trillion there. No worries. We had a deficit when we started. Blame Bush. Its all good.

Hey, who wants more free stuff?

112

Stonemason Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:05:24pm

re: #100 WindUpBird

Really? So last spring when the choice was between a seasoned leader and a virtual new-comer with NO experience the left sure thought that one out...the right made a mistake last spring as well, no doubt, but not nearly to the magnitude of the lefts mistake.

113

Mark Winter Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:05:41pm

re: #79 Stonemason

No, Barack was supported by the lunatics in the party. He represented what he thought was a mildly left of center position, a newcomer. He was pushed over the top by the fringe though, that can not be argued.

I disagree. Obama won because he rallied the center, gave the left fringe no chance but to vote for him (after 8 years of Bush the fringe simply couldn't sit on their hands) while McCain lost the center without exciting the fringe. Palin did excite the fringe but scared off the moderate Republicans.

With Hillary the outcome would have been much closer (although I think she would have won narrowly).

The Republicans will need a reasonable charismatic character to dig them out of their hole or they will sink deeper and deeper.

114

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:05:42pm

re: #105 Thanos

Did you get all your presents wrapped?
I kept giggling at your thumbs stuck to the packages with tape comments!

115

Randall Gross Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:06:55pm

re: #114 Floral Giraffe

Did you get all your presents wrapped?
I kept giggling at your thumbs stuck to the packages with tape comments!

Yes I did! They aren't the prettiest things you ever saw however...

116

Mocking Jay Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:07:29pm

re: #112 Stonemason

Really? So last spring when the choice was between a seasoned leader and a virtual new-comer with NO experience the left sure thought that one out...the right made a mistake last spring as well, no doubt, but not nearly to the magnitude of the lefts mistake.

Mistake?

Remind me who won again??

117

Stonemason Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:08:22pm

re: #102 beekiller

okay...those on the right who are shortsighted watched groups such as Code Pink, Moveon, Acorn, and even the Chester County Peace Movement take on and beat the Clinton's. Now, those same right-wingers think that they can lie down with the right wing dogs and win some elections. It is going to work in some areas.

I do not agree with it.

118

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:08:41pm

Tu Quoque. It's what's for dinner.

119

Mark Pennington Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:08:51pm

re: #112 Stonemason

Really? So last spring when the choice was between a seasoned leader and a virtual new-comer with NO experience the left sure thought that one out...the right made a mistake last spring as well, no doubt, but not nearly to the magnitude of the lefts mistake.

I'm not a far left progressive and I still think I made the right choice in voting for Obama over Clinton. Most of us do not think it was a mistake at all.

120

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:09:05pm

re: #111 Racer X

Yes. I really think so.

A trillion here, a trillion there. No worries. We had a deficit when we started. Blame Bush. Its all good.

Hey, who wants more free stuff?

That's true.. Bush created the largest deficit in history with a GOP congress. This was after budget surpluses from he Dems.

Just look at the deficit contributions of GOP vs. Dem administrations. The numbers are just not on your side.

121

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:09:06pm

re: #110 Gus 802

You'd look good as a tree.
Really, now, you would.
Or was that wood?
///
LOL!

122

Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:09:36pm

As always I wont get my shopping completed until tomorrow morning, still three more things to buy. Why I always put this off and have to go fight the crowds I don't know, I just do. At least I know exactly what I'm getting and hopefully can get in and out in an hour or so...if the register lines aren't too long. :(

123

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:09:49pm

re: #120 LudwigVanQuixote

That's true.. Bush created the largest deficit in history with a GOP congress. This was after budget surpluses from he Dems.

Just look at the deficit contributions of GOP vs. Dem administrations. The numbers are just not on your side.

All true.

9/11.

124

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:10:00pm

Bush

125

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:10:14pm

re: #115 Thanos

You got the job done!
That's the important part,
Well, and keeping the LGF'rs amused :)

126

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:11:39pm

Hey hows that war on poverty going?

127

Stonemason Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:11:42pm

re: #116 JasonA

If you think Mr. Obama is a better choice for President than Hillary Clinton, you have not been paying attention.

128

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:12:23pm

re: #126 Racer X

Hey hows that war on poverty going?

How's the war on drugs going?

129

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:12:26pm

re: #126 Racer X

Hey hows that war on poverty going?

Better than the war on drugs and the war on sex, but not as well as your war on science.

130

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:12:52pm

re: #129 LudwigVanQuixote

Better than the war on drugs and the war on sex, but not as well as your war on science.

Abstinence! The new birth control!

131

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:13:03pm

re: #128 Gus 802

re: #129 LudwigVanQuixote

Now with double the zing! ;)

132

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:13:53pm

re: #129 LudwigVanQuixote

Better than the war on drugs and the war on sex, but not as well as your war on science.

"My"?

133

Mark Pennington Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:13:59pm

re: #127 Stonemason

If you think Mr. Obama is a better choice for President than Hillary Clinton, you have not been paying attention.

There is very little difference in the ideology of Obama and Clinton. They are on the same exact page.

134

Killgore Trout Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:14:35pm

re: #128 Gus 802

How's the war on drugs going?

I got stoned and thought we were having a war on Christmas.

135

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:14:37pm

re: #132 Racer X

"My"?

That was unfair to you. I meant the GOP war on science.

136

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:14:38pm

re: #132 Racer X

"My"?

Won't you be surprised when you get the bill.

137

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:14:59pm

re: #129 LudwigVanQuixote

Racer may be a lot of things, but I've never taken him to be anti-science.

138

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:15:15pm

Then there's the war on gays.
The war on the media.
The war on Hollywood.
The war on the liberal elites.
The war on "fascist" scientists.
The war on Christmas... thanks for the reminder KT.

139

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:15:42pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

I got stoned and thought we were having a war on Christmas.

The War on Christmas! How could I have forgotten about that? :/

140

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:15:47pm

Change Nobody Believes In

A bill so reckless that it has to be rammed through on a partisan vote on Christmas eve.

Mr. Obama promised a new era of transparent good government, yet on Saturday morning Mr. Reid threw out the 2,100-page bill that the world's greatest deliberative body spent just 17 days debating and replaced it with a new "manager's amendment" that was stapled together in covert partisan negotiations.

Democrats are barely even bothering to pretend to care what's in it, not that any Senator had the chance to digest it in the 38 hours before the first cloture vote at 1 a.m. this morning. After procedural motions that allow for no amendments, the final vote could come at 9 p.m. on December 24.

141

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:16:14pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

I got stoned and thought we were having a war on Christmas.

We are. Didn't you here the news? The Atheists are planning to waterboard Santa Claus!

142

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:16:24pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

I got stoned and thought we were having a war on Christmas.

Culture war!

143

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:16:34pm

re: #137 Slumbering Behemoth

Racer may be a lot of things, but I've never taken him to be anti-science.

I meant yours as GOP. Like I said, it was unfair to him personally.

144

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:16:38pm

re: #138 Gus 802

I'm fighting the War On Reality.

145

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:16:48pm

re: #110 Gus 802

And now for something completely different....

Youtube Video

146

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:17:11pm

re: #135 LudwigVanQuixote

That was unfair to you. I meant the GOP war on science.

Thank you.

I've never been a Republican!

Lately I have developed a distaste for both sides equally.

OK, maybe not equal, but close.

147

badger1970 Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:17:31pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

I thought it was the Martian war on Santa Claus that started the whole "War on Christmas"? //

148

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:18:18pm

re: #143 LudwigVanQuixote

Noted, and updinged your mea culpa.

The Grand Old Party. This is not the party that I thought I knew.

149

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:18:42pm

re: #147 badger1970

I thought it was the Martian war on Santa Claus that started the whole "War on Christmas"? //

All your creche are belong to us!!

150

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:19:20pm

re: #138 Gus 802

The war ...

War

MP3 Audio

- Bob Marley

151

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:19:46pm

re: #146 Racer X

I've never been a Republican!

you're dead to me :sob:
/

152

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:19:52pm

re: #147 badger1970

I thought it was the Martian war on Santa Claus that started the whole "War on Christmas"? //

Word's out that cats are really Alien Anthropologists.

They attack Christmas trees you know.

153

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:20:03pm

Obama 'imperial, arrogant'
HAVANA - CUBA accused US President Barack Obama on Monday of being 'imperial, arrogant' and dishonest during last week's global climate conference in the latest sign of deteriorating relations between Havana and Washington.

Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez said in a televised press conference that Obama lied during the United Nations summit in Copenhagen and is making a habit of it after less than a year in office.

'In this summit there was only an imperial, arrogant Obama who doesn't listen, who imposes positions that even threaten developing countries,' he said.

Ouch.

154

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:20:04pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

I got stoned and thought we were having a war on Christmas.

Share? Pretty please?
LOL!

155

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:20:23pm

re: #146 Racer X

Thank you.

I've never been a Republican!

Lately I have developed a distaste for both sides equally.

OK, maybe not equal, but close.

Stuck in the middle with you baby... As I keep saying, I am no Dem. However, I have been consistently and pleasantly surprised by how centrist Obama has turned out and I think he is doing a much better job than Hilary would have. However, that does not make me a Dem. It makes me pretty damn centrist.

156

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:20:29pm

re: #136 Bagua

Good one!

157

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:21:36pm

re: #155 LudwigVanQuixote

Stuck in the middle with you baby... As I keep saying, I am no Dem. However, I have been consistently and pleasantly surprised by how centrist Obama has turned out and I think he is doing a much better job than Hilary would have. However, that does not make me a Dem. It makes me pretty damn centrist.

Obama has certainly done things I am pleased with. I thought his speech at Copenhagen was superb.

158

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:21:54pm

re: #156 Floral Giraffe

Good one!

We aim to please.

159

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:22:49pm

25 Products That Might Just Change The World

160

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:23:08pm

So, do Lizards get funnier & cleverer as the night goes on,
OR
Does it just seem that way, as I drink my wine?
Hmmmmm

161

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:23:28pm

re: #160 Floral Giraffe

Or my Guinness?

162

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:23:55pm

But I agree. This a cool and fast and funny thread.

163

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:24:53pm

re: #155 LudwigVanQuixote

Stuck in the middle with you baby... As I keep saying, I am no Dem. [...]

Define "middle"

164

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:24:55pm

re: #162 Irenicum

Filled with BRILLIANT Lizards!
LOL!

165

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:25:13pm

re: #160 Floral Giraffe

So, do Lizards get funnier & cleverer as the night goes on,
OR
Does it just seem that way, as I drink my wine?
Hmmm

Booze is a well known mental leavening agent.

166

Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:25:53pm

re: #153 Racer X

"This just in...Cuba says...well I really don't think our listeners care what Cuba says...in other news the fire department today rescued a cat from a tree. The five pound nine ounce ginger striped tabby answering to the name of tiger was rescued after almost nine hours of being stranded in a birch tree at..."

167

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:26:18pm

re: #165 Gus 802

Booze is a well known mental leavening agent.

/

What is this "Booze" of which you speak and I don't have?

168

Mark Pennington Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:26:35pm

I can't sleep so it's haiku time!

Haikus are not good

How can I express myself

In seventeen syll...

169

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:26:45pm

I am starting to get the impression that a certain demographic of right wingers are just as disappointed and pissed off as a certain demographic of left wingers that Obama has not turned out to be the socialist tyrant that some hoped he would be.

170

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:27:07pm

re: #164 Floral Giraffe

And did you hear about the absolute tragedy in Dublin the other day? The humanity!

171

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:27:15pm

re: #167 Bagua

Pssst. Over here.....
(Visualize person on a street corner, with open overcoat)
LOL!

172

Mark Pennington Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:27:45pm

re: #169 Slumbering Behemoth

I am starting to get the impression that a certain demographic of right wingers are just as disappointed and pissed off as a certain demographic of left wingers that Obama has not turned out to be the socialist tyrant that some hoped he would be.

I think you're on to something there.

173

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:28:33pm

re: #170 Irenicum

Now, that, is a true tragedy.
For Guiness workers & drinkers....

174

badger1970 Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:28:40pm

re: #170 Irenicum

What were the workers drinking? *hic* /

175

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:28:43pm

re: #167 Bagua

What is this "Booze" of which you speak and I don't have?

It is a beverage that contains a substance called alcohol. It comes in a variety of flavors and is available in most states except Utah. Next time you drive by a store with a sign that reads "liquor" you should be able to get something that might appeal to your tastes there.

176

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:29:27pm

re: #169 Slumbering Behemoth

I am starting to get the impression that a certain demographic of right wingers are just as disappointed and pissed off as a certain demographic of left wingers that Obama has not turned out to be the socialist tyrant that some hoped he would be.

Indeed...
/You said 'tyrant'! SCIENCE TYRANT!11!1... can't get that gem outta my head! :P

177

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:29:38pm

re: #168 beekiller

For your pleasure
I present this site to you
Some Drunken Haiku

178

Bagua Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:29:41pm

re: #171 Floral Giraffe

Pssst. Over here...
(Visualize person on a street corner, with open overcoat)
LOL!

In the Age Of Obama® there will be no more want or hunger, booze will be subsidised.

179

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:29:42pm

re: #169 Slumbering Behemoth

Have a beer? Or a Guinness?
My treat!

180

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:30:09pm

re: #176 Varek Raith

Indeed...
/You said 'tyrant'! SCIENCE TYRANT!11!1... can't get that gem outta my head! :P

That's the phrase I was reaching for!

Sciene Tyrants™

181

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:30:37pm

re: #180 Gus 802

Science. PIMF

182

efuseakay Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:30:38pm

So has GOProud bailed out?

183

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:31:40pm

re: #177 Slumbering Behemoth

For your pleasure
I present this site to you
Some Drunken Haiku

How did you know of this?
*eyes SB suspiciously*
You don't LOOK like a Haiku knida guy......

184

Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:31:54pm

re: #175 Gus 802

Utah has 3.2% beer, that sorta counts as booze, it just means you have to drink an entire twelve pack to get a half decent buzz.

"Welcome to Utah; The Beer Belly State!"

185

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:31:54pm

re: #174 badger1970

All I know is that I heard one guy say to the other, and I think the guys name was Al, and there was a chemical that wasn't supposed to be there. And he wanted to keep it a secret and asked a friend to put it somewhere. In the end it ended up be from Al to hide.

186

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:32:37pm

re: #185 Irenicum

Be should be being. I'm such a terrible joke teller!

187

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:32:48pm

re: #178 Bagua

In the Age Of Obama® there will be no more want or hunger, booze will be subsidised.

FREE BOOZE!
Can free'd boobs be far away?

188

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:33:12pm

re: #182 efuseakay

So has GOProud bailed out?

Conservatives alarmed by 'gay' sponsorship of CPAC!!111!!

OK, that's a World Net Drooly headline.

John Birch Black Helicopters Society and Lincoln bashers, not so much.

189

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:33:14pm

re: #179 Floral Giraffe

Your treat? I'll have both, STAT!

re: #183 Floral Giraffe

You don't LOOK like a Haiku knida guy...

I'm not, but I AM a drunken kinda guy. ;)

190

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:34:01pm

re: #187 Floral Giraffe

FREE BOOZE!
Can free'd boobs be far away?

I don't know and have no opinion.
/nervously looks to see if Mandy is nearby. :P

191

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:34:12pm

re: #187 Floral Giraffe

FREE BOOZE!
Can free'd boobs be far away?

Mr Francis, is that you?

192

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:34:59pm

re: #190 Varek Raith

She's on Eastern time, she might "get back to you" in the morning, but she ain't here now! LOL!

193

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:35:23pm

re: #187 Floral Giraffe

That's something I can totally get behind.
/hoo... I crack myself up...

194

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:35:31pm

re: #191 Dark_Falcon

Mr Francis, is that you?

Nope, never met him!

195

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:36:55pm

re: #190 Varek Raith

Don't be so paranoid. She loves free'd boobs. Muscly man boobs, to be precise.

196

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:37:59pm

Speaking of Guinness, it turns out that fruit flies are quite advanced as a species. I have to constantly fight them from landing on the foam of my Guinness. One had to pay the ultimate price a little while ago. So sad. At least know he died happy.

197

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:38:08pm

re: #195 Slumbering Behemoth

Ahem, you are TOTALLY forgetting the "tight butts drive me nuts" meme.

198

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:38:43pm

re: #196 Irenicum

Dad always said "a little protein never hurt anyone"!

199

Mark Winter Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:39:01pm

We make our own booze, with forest berries and rowan berries.
Very delicious.

200

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:40:03pm

re: #199 Mark Winter

I'll bet they're berry berry good!

201

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:40:06pm

re: #199 Mark Winter

We make our own booze, with forest berries and rowan berries.
Very delicious.

Careful with that. Here in the US that can get you in trouble.

202

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:40:09pm

re: #196 Irenicum

Speaking of Guinness, it turns out that fruit flies are quite advanced as a species. I have to constantly fight them from landing on the foam of my Guinness. One had to pay the ultimate price a little while ago. So sad. At least know he died happy.

Bummer. But what's 28 seconds of bug years compared to humans?

203

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:40:49pm

re: #199 Mark Winter

We make our own booze, with forest berries and rowan berries.
Very delicious.

And the alcohol content?
*eyes Mark suspiciously*
Although he seems OK, you never know!

204

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:41:49pm

re: #198 Floral Giraffe

Guinness definitely counts as a food group. I think I can count part of my 20/30 pound weight gain in the last few years to Mr. Guinness!

205

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:42:36pm

The Andrews Sisters - Rum & Coca Cola

Youtube Video

206

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:42:59pm

re: #204 Irenicum

Guinness definitely counts as a food group. I think I can count part of my 20/30 pound weight gain in the last few years to Mr. Guinness!

I see a New Years resoultion in the making.....
True sacrifice.

207

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:44:10pm

An Irishman, an Englishman and a Scotsman walk into a pub, and each order a pint of Guinness. Just as the bartender hands them over, three flies buzz down and land in each of the pints.

The Englishman looks disgusted, pushes his pint away and demands another.

The Scotsman picks out the fly, shrugs and takes a long swallow.

The Irishman reaches into the glass, pinches the fly between his fingers, shakes him and yells, "Spit it out, ya bastard! Spit it out!"

208

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:45:37pm

re: #202 Gus 802

He was a middle aged insurance salesman to other fruit flies from what I understand of the widow, who is suing me for negligent fly-slaughter. I expect the settlement to be in the millions. At least in fly dollars. Which adds up to about a nickel for me.

209

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:46:59pm

I looked all over the CPAC site for a contact form when Charles (thank you, sir) first brought this up in an earlier post. There is none. I suppose tomorrow I will send something to the GOP site (providing they have a contact form) to express my disgust, in a thoughtful and decent manner, with them embracing the JBS.

The further this crap goes, the sadder this republican becomes. I will not denounce my conservative principles, but if forced I most certainly denounce my party if they continue to crap all over those principles.

210

Mark Winter Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:47:06pm

re: #201 Dark_Falcon

Not here. We have a permit, too. My family has been doing that for 7 generations. But we don't sell.

211

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:47:49pm

Trillions Of Troubles Ahead

A crushing burden of debt threatens to sap America's growth for years to come.

If the government stays on the course it's been on for the past forty years without a radical change, the federal government will soon have a $10 trillion budget.

In other words, the federal budget deficit will be $1.4 trillion. Just to make the size more visible, that's $1,400 billion.

Our colleague Rob Arnott, who always does terrific research, wrote in his recent report that "at all levels, federal, state, local and GSEs, the total public debt is now at 141% of GDP.

That puts the United States in some elite company--only Japan, Lebanon and Zimbabwe are higher. That's only the start. Add household debt (highest in the world at 99% of GDP) and corporate debt (highest in the world at 317% of GDP, not even counting off-balance-sheet swaps and derivatives) and our total debt is 557% of GDP.

Less than three years ago our total indebtedness crossed 500% of GDP for the first time."

212

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:48:10pm

re: #205 Gus 802

I love the Andrew Sisters! Their part in the old Abbot and Costello comedies was the best. I grew up on them. What a throw back!

213

Mark Winter Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:49:17pm

re: #203 Floral Giraffe

45%

214

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:50:03pm

re: #197 Floral Giraffe

I am a fan of Prof. Mixalot's Theory of Relative Booty.

215

Surabaya Stew Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:50:16pm

Hey Lizards, back from buying and putting up the Christmas tree....did I miss anything good?

216

Racer X Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:50:42pm

re: #211 Racer X

Trillions Of Troubles Ahead

The world has not seen such debt levels in modern history. This debt is not serviceable. Imagine that total debt is 557% of GDP, without considering entitlements. The interest on the debt will consume all the tax revenues of the country in the not-too-distant future. Then there will be no way out but to create more debt in order to finance the old debt.

It assures a period of economic devastation. In a last, desperate attempt, politicians at the federal and local levels will raise taxes to astronomical heights to raise revenues. And that only assures destruction of the economy. Forget the fable of economic recovery. Unless there is a change in Washington by next year's election, there will be no way to turn back.

Talk about a tipping point.

217

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:51:03pm

re: #212 Irenicum

I love the Andrew Sisters! Their part in the old Abbot and Costello comedies was the best. I grew up on them. What a throw back!

Great stuff. I caught the very end as a kid. Used to watch Abbott & Costello all the time.

This being one of their greatest:

Andrews Sisters' "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy Of Company B"

Youtube Video

218

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:51:08pm

re: #210 Mark Winter

But, do you share?
LOL!
Just teasing, mostly!

219

badger1970 Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:51:19pm

re: #211 Racer X

Funny you should mention that. Back in the day, when the deficit was only approaching one trillion, Walter Cronkite had a sermon on national television trying to get Americans to realize the difference of a thousand, a million and a billion.

220

Dark_Falcon Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:52:03pm

re: #217 Gus 802

Great stuff. I caught the very end as a kid. Used to watch Abbott & Costello all the time.

This being one of their greatest:

Andrews Sisters' "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy Of Company B"

[Video]

Classic, a great find! But now I have to get to bed. Goodnight, all.

221

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:52:24pm

re: #220 Dark_Falcon

Classic, a great find! But now I have to get to bed. Goodnight, all.

Night DF.

222

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:52:52pm

re: #207 Racer X

Since my background is all of the above, I don't know what the hell to say to that fly except "you have damn fine taste" and drink him up! Protein indeed!

223

Mark Winter Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:53:44pm

re: #218 Floral Giraffe

LOL yes, among friends (lemme see, why do we have so many friends actually?)
Our oldest bottles go back to Napoleonic times.

224

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:53:48pm

re: #214 Slumbering Behemoth

I am a fan of Prof. Mixalot's Theory of Relative Booty.

Sonuva?!? That didn't sound as taboo in my head as it does now when I read it. So wrong, SB, so wrong.

225

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:55:17pm

re: #217 Gus 802

Great stuff. I caught the very end as a kid. Used to watch Abbott & Costello all the time.

This being one of their greatest:

Andrews Sisters' "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy Of Company B"

[Video]

It's pretty rare that I wish for a million updings. But you have made that wish for me tonight.
GREAT!

226

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:56:53pm

re: #217 Gus 802

My father and uncles all served under that song! Thanks for posting it. That music never gets old for me. What a great trio!

227

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:57:48pm

Goodnight, Lizards.
Stay scaly, and beware the Jabberwock!

228

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:58:49pm

re: #227 Floral Giraffe

Goodnight, Lizards.
Stay scaly, and beware the Jabberwock!

Night Floral Giraffe!

Stay scaly for sure.

229

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 10:59:09pm

re: #209 Slumbering Behemoth

I looked all over the CPAC site for a contact form when Charles (thank you, sir) first brought this up in an earlier post. There is none. I suppose tomorrow I will send something to the GOP site (providing they have a contact form) to express my disgust, in a thoughtful and decent manner, with them embracing the JBS.

The further this crap goes, the sadder this republican becomes. I will not denounce my conservative principles, but if forced I most certainly denounce my party if they continue to crap all over those principles.

Ya know, we have conservative Democrats 8-)

230

LotharBot Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:00:14pm

Charles,

I'm still not clear on what it means to be a "cosponsor". Can you elaborate? Could you or I or CodePink become "cosponsors" if we paid the registration fee, or is there some sort of ideological test a group must pass?

I can't get that worked up if "cosponsor" is just a generic title meaning "group that paid X many dollars to have a booth at our show". But if there's some "ideological purity" measure (like, say, if they kick out the gay rights group you mentioned before) then I'll get pretty worked up over the Birchers being included.

231

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:00:25pm

re: #226 Irenicum

My father and uncles all served under that song! Thanks for posting it. That music never gets old for me. What a great trio!

They were ahead of their time. Excellent song and vocals. Nothing like a big band.

232

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:00:53pm

Well it seems to be sleeping time for several of us. G'nite and have a pleasant tomorrow!

233

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:01:24pm

re: #232 Irenicum

Well it seems to be sleeping time for several of us. G'nite and have a pleasant tomorrow!

Later Irenicum.

234

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:01:51pm

re: #231 Gus 802

Agreed. They presaged jazz vocals wonderfully.

235

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:02:12pm

And BTW, Charles, fuck the haters. They can suck on my avatar. As a republican, I appreciate the work you and others here have done to expose this insidious creep of atavistic garbage into my party. I appreciate it a lot.

236

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:03:08pm

re: #235 Slumbering Behemoth

OK. I'll stay up just a few minutes longer to say amen to what SB just said!

237

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:03:13pm

OK, I have been meaning to write something about this for some time. It's a boring discussion about journal papers, and I will likely try to repost it sometime on a more active thread. However, there are some things I want to point out about scientific papers, peer review and journals in general.

The process is not perfect and I will give examples as I go. However, in some sort of ensemble average, it works well - or perhaps as well as possible.

So first off, not all journals are created equal. There are top flight, journals of note for instance that are hard to get even a very good paper into.

If you are in physics they are PRL, Phys Rev, Nature and Science.

These journals strive to promote papers that they feel are of general import to a large community. The idea is that the paper is there to represent the newest and most important discoveries in a given field. Phys Rev is divided into several sub parts, for instance, phys rev D is particle physics. PRLs (physical review letters) are seen to be important for the whole physics community in principle and are short communications that frequently have a longer paper or two associated with them in Phys Rev or someplace else.

Now getting into these journals does not make a paper perfect. There are dozens of great papers that should have gotten in and dozens that were flawed. In my own career, one of my first papers was actually pointing out flaws in a PRL and the group that wrote that paper later retracted their findings. However, their flaw was not glaring and they reported their results in good faith. They were just wrong. It happens and the main point of science is that the community scrutinizes work. It does not end at peer review.

After this tier of journals, there are more specialized journals. For instance, the British Journal of Fluids is huge and wonderful to be published in if you are a fluid dynamicist. More than once a paper that should have been in a "bigger journal" ended up in one of these journals and later became huge. Also more than once, it was a specialized paper that would be of great interest to a certain community, and that journal was the perfect one for it.

Beneath that tier journals get either more specialized or more obscure.

Occasionally, as in rarely, a paper that later became huge but was way ahead of its time, or just not properly received, could only find its way into one of the more obscure journals. Sometimes These journals are a good place to publish a crazy idea that might be right... and if it turns out to be right, then you got it out there, and if it turned out to be crazy, well not many people read that journal....

The best measure of a paper is how many citations it has received. A paper with 500 citations is one that 500 other papers saw fit to mention as part of their arguments. A paper with over 500 citations is huge.

In fact, a paper with 50 citations is very respectable. That means that 50 other researchers or research groups are using your stuff in their own arguments and presumably as part of their own story with their own results that also in turn back yours up.

Again rarely, a paper might languish for years and then get rediscovered only to later receive the response it deserves. This can happen for many reasons. But also this is rare.

Also it should be mentioned that proceedings of national academies are big deals too. A report from the National Academy or the Royal Society has been past many sets of eyes before publication. These are not trivial things.

So as a lay person looking at a sea of papers. If you see one with 500 citations from a top flight journal, chances are that science in it is very, very sound. If you see a paper with no citations from the Physical Journal of the East Slovenia fire fighters association, quite possibly much less so.

I bring this because if you look at the big papers and the big proceedings, you will find that AGW is supported and that Evolution is real.

On the other hand, the Disco Institute publishes elsewhere.

238

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:03:14pm

re: #230 LotharBot

Charles,

I'm still not clear on what it means to be a "cosponsor". Can you elaborate? Could you or I or CodePink become "cosponsors" if we paid the registration fee, or is there some sort of ideological test a group must pass?

I can't get that worked up if "cosponsor" is just a generic title meaning "group that paid X many dollars to have a booth at our show". But if there's some "ideological purity" measure (like, say, if they kick out the gay rights group you mentioned before) then I'll get pretty worked up over the Birchers being included.

What does the John Birch Society and Code Pink have to do with the price of California potatoes?

239

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:03:40pm

re: #230 LotharBot

[Facepalm] Look, having Birchers anywhere in your event's general vicinity is bad, mmmkay?

240

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:03:49pm

Phil Hendrie segment! Funniest broadcaster in America :D

Youtube Video

241

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:04:08pm

re: #229 WindUpBird

Ya know, we have conservative Democrats 8-)

That's a commie lie!
/

242

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:04:44pm

re: #236 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, and Ludwig too!

243

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:07:13pm

re: #63 Charles

If you think Barack Obama represented the "lunatic fringe" of the Democratic Party, you're living in a fantasy world.

Or, you haven't MET the lunatic fringe! I'VE met the lunatic fringe! They're FUN!

244

Surabaya Stew Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:07:25pm

re: #235 Slumbering Behemoth

And BTW, Charles, fuck the haters. They can suck on my avatar. As a republican, I appreciate the work you and others here have done to expose this insidious creep of atavistic garbage into my party. I appreciate it a lot.

The GOP isn't my party (I belong to none), yet the GOP is part of my country, and having a large percentage of my fellow citizens falling off the deep end of political insanity is bad for all Americans! Am happy that you are attempting to fight the rot from the inside, wish there were more Republicans like you.

245

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:08:07pm

re: #67 Killgore Trout

Tis true: CPAC LIBERTY FORUM

Thomas DiLorenzo will be giving anti-Lincoln speeches and signing his anti-Lincoln books.

I just can't deal with this. How can you be against Lincoln? In this day and age, how can you possibly be against LINCOLN?

246

Irenicum Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:08:55pm

re: #236 LudwigVanQuixote

All I want to say before I go to bed is thank you for being you. I know more and appreciate more because of knowing you through this blog and the forum Charles provides. I am smarter and wiser on the issues addressed because of being here. Now I must retire!

247

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:09:06pm

re: #223 Mark Winter

I wish you a good trip to Patagonia. The trip of a lifetime. A dream for many. May you see an Andean Condor in flight!

248

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:09:16pm

re: #240 WindUpBird

Phil Hendrie segment! Funniest broadcaster in America :D

[Video]

Pawned! Who is that guy?

"Yes, I'm going to visit grandma in my MBT-70."

249

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:10:16pm

Howdy Lothar Bot.

Angry much?

250

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:10:25pm

re: #246 Irenicum

All I want to say before I go to bed is thank you for being you. I know more and appreciate more because of knowing you through this blog and the forum Charles provides. I am smarter and wiser on the issues addressed because of being here. Now I must retire!

Wow thank you so much.

251

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:11:02pm

re: #230 LotharBot

I wouldn't take a penny from that atavistic, conspiracy mongering "society", and neither should the GOP.

All the labor and effort that Buckley, Goldwater, and other like minds put into purging this garbage from the GOP is being torn asunder by jabbering populists. Folks like Glenn Beck might as well be pissing on their graves.

*SPIT!*

252

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:11:39pm

re: #249 Gus 802

Howdy Lothar Bot.

Angry much?

Yeah, Lothar. You think associating with the JBS is fine and dandy?

253

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:11:47pm

re: #241 Slumbering Behemoth

That's a commie lie!
/

"The commie bastard gets no food!"

-Men at Work

254

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:12:34pm

re: #230 LotharBot

Charles,

I'm still not clear on what it means to be a "cosponsor". Can you elaborate? Could you or I or CodePink become "cosponsors" if we paid the registration fee, or is there some sort of ideological test a group must pass?

I can't get that worked up if "cosponsor" is just a generic title meaning "group that paid X many dollars to have a booth at our show". But if there's some "ideological purity" measure (like, say, if they kick out the gay rights group you mentioned before) then I'll get pretty worked up over the Birchers being included.

Dude! Join the conversation. or just Trolling?

255

Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:13:03pm

OT: So remember folks, Glenn Beck says to "Buy more gold, please, please buy more gold?"

Down 6.73% over the 30 day average, down over 8% in just this last week from it's peak of $1217.40 per oz. Looks like the professional investors are taking their profits while the mouthbreathers get stuck taking another loss.

If you had bought at the peak of the last "gold rush" in 1980 and then saw the prices collapse from under you it took until late 1999 for prices to get that high again. In fact when adjusted for inflation they still have never gotten as high as they were then.

Sigh, P.T. Barnum said it best--"There is a sucker born every minute."

256

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:13:16pm

re: #248 Gus 802

Pawned! Who is that guy?

"Yes, I'm going to visit grandma in my MBT-70."

//

Jay Santos is one of Phil Hendrie's characters. Phil does himself as the host, and also does the voice of Jay Santos, all at once, turning from his mic to a telephone to do both sides of the conversation. The outraged callers are real. :D

257

Surabaya Stew Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:13:31pm

re: #243 SanFranciscoZionist

Or, you haven't MET the lunatic fringe! I'VE met the lunatic fringe! They're FUN!

Correct; the lunatics can be the greatest of fun, especially when they whine so much, crocodile tears swell up in their eyes! Am sure you get the finest sampling of the loony left out in SF; here in NYC, the dems and liberals who dominate our politics tend to be somewhat dismissive of the fringe.

258

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:14:53pm

re: #252 Varek Raith

Yeah, Lothar. You think associating with the JBS is fine and dandy?

Some people don't get the concept. They see the JBS and immediately try to change the subject to Code Pink. Apples and oranges. The JBS has a rather large legacy compared to Code Pink.

259

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:15:01pm

re: #245 SanFranciscoZionist

I just can't deal with this. How can you be against Lincoln? In this day and age, how can you possibly be against LINCOLN?

Lincoln was a RINO, didn't you know? Also, he was infected with teh ghey.
/

260

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:15:08pm

re: #254 Floral Giraffe

Well, it's on a downding spree.
IF Stinky doesn't whack it soon, get out your GAZE!

261

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:15:10pm

re: #252 Varek Raith

Yeah, Lothar. You think associating with the JBS is fine and dandy?

Judging from your downding, and lack of actually conversing with us, I'd say 'yes'.

262

Surabaya Stew Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:16:27pm

re: #246 Irenicum

All I want to say before I go to bed is thank you for being you. I know more and appreciate more because of knowing you through this blog and the forum Charles provides. I am smarter and wiser on the issues addressed because of being here. Now I must retire!

All words and thoughts expressed Irenicum are hereby seconded, (except the retiring part—that comes later) with a personal thank from me to LVQ and Charles.

263

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:16:45pm

re: #259 Slumbering Behemoth

Lincoln was a RINO, didn't you know? Also, he was infected with teh ghey.
/

When does Robert Stacy McCain show up with his snare drum?

264

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:17:04pm

re: #258 Gus 802

Immigrants from Tu Quoqueistan.

265

LotharBot Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:17:05pm

I get that the John Birch Society is bad. I just don't understand what "cosponsor" means in this context. Does it mean CPAC is taking them seriously? Does it mean CPAC accepts any group that pays the registration fee, no matter how controversial?

(Also, Varek, I didn't downding you because I'm trolling. I downdinged you because you downdinged me without making a serious effort of addressing the "what is a consponsor" question.)

266

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:17:35pm

re: #244 Surabaya Stew

The GOP isn't my party (I belong to none), yet the GOP is part of my country, and having a large percentage of my fellow citizens falling off the deep end of political insanity is bad for all Americans! Am happy that you are attempting to fight the rot from the inside, wish there were more Republicans like you.

That's exactly it. I want a sane GOP. Not that I'd vote for them (I did vote for Gordon Smith!) but that I want a sane GOP because it means that Democrats have to be sane as well. The country will be better off with a Reagan-ideals versus FDR-ideals sort of dynamic.

Listen up, conservatives:

If we have a crazy GOP, that means the party I currently tend to vote for, the Democratic party, can fuck up all over the place and have cover because the GOP is screaming nuts by comparison. I DO NOT WANT THIS. NONE OF US WANT THIS. I want real competition. That's what the free market is all about. :D

267

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:17:58pm

re: #265 LotharBot

Who's your Catherine? Since you love her so much....

268

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:18:14pm

re: #265 LotharBot

Me me me me.

269

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:19:33pm

re: #259 Slumbering Behemoth

Lincoln was a RINO, didn't you know? Also, he was infected with teh ghey.
/

[Tyler and Narrator are discussing ideal opponents.]

Tyler Durden: "OK: any historic figure."
Narrator: "I'd fight Gandhi."
Tyler Durden: "Good answer."
Narrator: "How about you?"
Tyler Durden: "Lincoln."
Narrator: "Lincoln?"
Tyler Durden: "Big guy, big reach. Skinny guys fight 'til they're burger."

270

Mark Winter Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:20:50pm

re: #247 Floral Giraffe

Thank you! Actually it's not such an expensive trip. Crossing the Drake Passage to Antarctica is. Usually that trip would cost you around 6000 dollars minimum, but if you show up the day before and they have a vacancy they let you board for about 2000 dollars.

Southern Patagonia is stunningly beautiful, but the weather is... well if you don't like it, wait ten minutes.

271

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:21:01pm

re: #265 LotharBot

Right, sure, you wanna play games fine.re: #268 Gus 802

Me me me me.

Me monster. :)

Youtube Video

272

Surabaya Stew Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:21:39pm

re: #266 WindUpBird

That's exactly it. I want a sane GOP. Not that I'd vote for them (I did vote for Gordon Smith!) but that I want a sane GOP because it means that Democrats have to be sane as well. The country will be better off with a Reagan-ideals versus FDR-ideals sort of dynamic.

Listen up, conservatives:

If we have a crazy GOP, that means the party I currently tend to vote for, the Democratic party, can fuck up all over the place and have cover because the GOP is screaming nuts by comparison. I DO NOT WANT THIS. NONE OF US WANT THIS. I want real competition. That's what the free market is all about. :D

Well said! Will add that if the GOP doesn't reform itself, they will become fringe and die off. Then the free market will work its magic, and a new party will come into play to challenge the Democrats. (Just like how the GOP replaced the Whigs in the 1850's as the Dem's nemesis.)

Where's Ojoe and his Modern Whig Party when we need them?

273

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:21:48pm

re: #265 LotharBot

Co-sponsor means that they are paying to promote the CPAC. CPAC's acceptance of this sponsorship means that they are cool with the JBS agenda and message. Simple, right?

274

LotharBot Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:22:03pm

re: #267 Floral Giraffe

Who's your Catherine? Since you love her so much...

My wife of seven years. Almost 36 weeks pregnant; becoming more and more beautiful all the time.

275

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:23:19pm

re: #270 Mark Winter

It's a trip, I envy you.
Enjoy it.

276

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:24:34pm

I recommend Schneider Aventinus if you like heavy malty German beers. Thank goodness I'm a happy drunk!

277

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:25:06pm

re: #238 Gus 802

What does the John Birch Society and Code Pink have to do with the price of California potatoes?

I got five pounds of russets earlier today for $2.39.

278

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:25:13pm

It's rather apparent. They're pulling the Southern Strategy. They have Dick Armey on board and the ever flexible GOP Dhimmi Michale Steele. GOProud is an accident.

279

Surabaya Stew Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:25:31pm

re: #270 Mark Winter

Thank you! Actually it's not such an expensive trip. Crossing the Drake Passage to Antarctica is. Usually that trip would cost you around 6000 dollars minimum, but if you show up the day before and they have a vacancy they let you board for about 2000 dollars.

Southern Patagonia is stunningly beautiful, but the weather is... well if you don't like it, wait ten minutes.

That's what I figured. These voyages down to Antarctica must be massively expensive to run; being a same-day traveler is the only way I can afford a trip down there anytime soon! Have a good friend from Punta Arenas and a long-standing offer to visit....hope he doesn't mind an open-ended stay!

280

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:25:53pm

re: #262 Surabaya Stew

All words and thoughts expressed Irenicum are hereby seconded, (except the retiring part—that comes later) with a personal thank from me to LVQ and Charles.

Wow thanks again.

281

Dancing along the light of day Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:26:10pm

re: #274 LotharBot

Now, that is cool.
Glad you have something special like her in your life.
I hope you are really really good to her.
And have a strong suspicion, that you are.

Blessings on the whole family of you.

282

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:26:15pm

re: #257 Surabaya Stew

Correct; the lunatics can be the greatest of fun, especially when they whine so much, crocodile tears swell up in their eyes! Am sure you get the finest sampling of the loony left out in SF; here in NYC, the dems and liberals who dominate our politics tend to be somewhat dismissive of the fringe.

San Francisco not so much. Berkeley and Oakland have the best of the fringe.

283

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:26:46pm

re: #258 Gus 802

Some people don't get the concept. They see the JBS and immediately try to change the subject to Code Pink. Apples and oranges. The JBS has a rather large legacy compared to Code Pink.

True. The Birchers go way back.

284

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:26:51pm

re: #265 LotharBot

I get that the John Birch Society is bad. I just don't understand what "cosponsor" means in this context. Does it mean CPAC is taking them seriously? Does it mean CPAC accepts any group that pays the registration fee, no matter how controversial?

If I had a political organization, and the Klan wanted to join, I wouldn't let them. If CPAC wants the money of insane racists, they can have it. And we can criticize them for it.

285

Gus Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:27:50pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist

True. The Birchers go way back.

It's stupid to compare JBS with Code Pink or Moveon.

286

Varek Raith Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:28:32pm

re: #280 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow thanks again.

I have to ask. You're not a tyrant... of the Sciencey persuasion, are you?
/:)

287

Mark Winter Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:29:26pm

re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote

Don't forget that you meet a lot of people, too, or they get recommended to you. So the prestige of the journal isn't everything.

We are exaggerating the "publish or perish" principle a little. Quantity does not always mean quality.

288

Surabaya Stew Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:29:27pm

re: #280 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow thanks again.

You're quite welcome. I agree with you more often than not, and when it comes to science, I really have learned a lot from you and other Lizards.

289

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:29:31pm

re: #282 SanFranciscoZionist

San Francisco not so much. Berkeley and Oakland have the best of the fringe.

I always thought SF proper was too expensive for the fringe.

Now we're getting your fringe here in Portland! Because you can get a one bedroom apt with lots of room close to downtown for $500 a month. :D

290

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:30:51pm

re: #271 Varek Raith

How the hell does that random comic, who I am sure I have never met, know so much about my family?

291

LotharBot Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:31:11pm

re: #273 Slumbering Behemoth

Co-sponsor means that they are paying to promote the CPAC. CPAC's acceptance of this sponsorship means that they are cool with the JBS agenda and message. Simple, right?

I think it's clear that "co-sponsor" means they paid. I don't know about the rest; is that a guess or actual information? Does CPAC vet sponsors for acceptability, or would they accept money from anyone?

If they vet sponsors and accepted JBS, then they're ideologically wrong. If they don't vet sponsors and would take money from anyone (JBS, CodePink, whoever) and they don't bother reading the guestlist, then they're organizationally wrong. I consider this a big difference. They're wrong either way, but one type of wrong is much more concerning.

292

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:32:23pm

re: #290 Slumbering Behemoth

How the hell does that random comic, who I am sure I have never met, know so much about my family?

Brian Regan! I saw him live in Portland when my family came down to visit! He's very funny, and family friendly, which is not something I can generally say about my choice of comedy. :D

293

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:33:31pm

re: #291 LotharBot

We'll see when CPAC actually happens. If Birchers get the floor for a big chunk of the convention, we'll know. ;-)

294

Surabaya Stew Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:34:13pm

re: #282 SanFranciscoZionist

San Francisco not so much. Berkeley and Oakland have the best of the fringe.

Correct; I should have clarified by saying the "San Francisco Bay area"; but that might include some conservative areas....wait, do those exist there? It's a serious question, as I've never visited.

295

Mark Winter Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:38:21pm

re: #279 Surabaya Stew

Try early fall, the weather is often more stable than in summer and the Southern beeches are magnificent.

If not Antarctica I'll definitely sail around Cape Hoorn this time. Also plan some hiking on Navarino Island.

Torres del Paine are tricky, the weather can be foul for weeks. Should it get too bad I'll hike in the Parque Nacional Los Alerces which is beautiful in fall.

Two years ago I climbed the Aconcagua.

296

LotharBot Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:39:58pm

re: #281 Floral Giraffe
Thank you.

297

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:42:01pm

re: #294 Surabaya Stew

Correct; I should have clarified by saying the "San Francisco Bay area"; but that might include some conservative areas...wait, do those exist there? It's a serious question, as I've never visited.

It depends on how you define 'conservative'. People in Richmond aren't hippies, but they all vote Democrat.

There are no real Republican-voting areas of the Bay Area, except for wherever the Alameda County Republican Club meets on the first Wednesday of every month. We have Republicans, they're just geographically scattered.

If you go north, or inland, you come to more conservative-leaning areas.

298

Jerusalemyte Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:43:45pm

Hard to believe that these guys are still around. Maybe the FBI is running them as a decoy? Maybe the CIA? Maybe the RNC? The DNC?

299

Surabaya Stew Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:45:25pm

re: #295 Mark Winter

Try early fall, the weather is often more stable than in summer and the Southern beeches are magnificent.

If not Antarctica I'll definitely sail around Cape Hoorn this time. Also plan some hiking on Navarino Island.

Torres del Paine are tricky, the weather can be foul for weeks. Should it get too bad I'll hike in the Parque Nacional Los Alerces which is beautiful in fall.

Two years ago I climbed the Aconcagua.

Early fall in Patagonia, that would be Late March through Early May then....ok, good advice. Haven't been to that part of the world for over a decade, may be a good idea to return before I'm 40. My Punta Arenas friend gave me a local guide book on Torres del Paine, somehow I don't recall them emphasizing that bad weather warning!

Aconcagua? The highest peak in South America? Can that be climbed by average folk like Kilimanjaro is? Or does one have to be a professional mountain climber?

300

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:46:14pm

re: #287 Mark Winter

Don't forget that you meet a lot of people, too, or they get recommended to you. So the prestige of the journal isn't everything.

We are exaggerating the "publish or perish" principle a little. Quantity does not always mean quality.

Of course you are right. I am not trying at all to say that the process is perfect. Every scientist has a story of a great paper that was killed by an idiot reviewer and every year dozens of less than amazing papers get out there because someone needed to get something out there.

However, on the other hand, in average, overall, it is a good rule of thumb that a paper with hundreds of citations - particularly hundreds of citations in branching applications is likely to be as true while the one with no citations from an obscure journal is at best unproven at first glance.

Again it may be that that obscure journal paper with no citations is exactly the piece you needed for your own research. It may even be like Lie and Gell Mann... however, if you are giving a general guideline and talking about sheer probabilities of what is more likely to be crap and what isn't, I think I am making a valid argument.

For those who don't know the story BTW, Sophus Lie was a mathematician in the 19th century. He wrote the paper on a subject called group theory. It was known to algebraists, (a type of mathematician) but few others until the 1960's. Almost a century later, Gell Mann sense a certain pattern in particle physics. He went to the math Dept at Cal Tech to ask about it. They said read Lie. He did. Ever after, Lie's math was central to particle theory. That is the best case I know of, of a paper being huge much after it's time. I am sure there are other examples, but it is the first that comes to mind.

301

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:46:44pm

re: #291 LotharBot

Any one who claims to be a republican, and claims not to know about the JBS, is full of shit. Buckley put in a lot of work to make people aware of what that garbage organization stands for, and to keep them from being associated with the GOP. The people running the CPAC are old enough to be aware of this.

In this context, your question about vetting sponsors leaves me only two conclusions:

1. They do vet their sponsors, and therefore their acceptance of the JBS sponsorship shows support for their garbage.

2. They do not vet their sponsors, and therefore they can not be considered responsible conservative leaders in any way, shape, or form.

Given the context of my first paragraph, it is absolutely impossible to believe that the CPAC organizers are unaware of what the JBS stands for. Logic demands that I eliminate conclusion #2 as plausible.

302

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:48:07pm

re: #298 Jerusalemyte

It's a joint effort by the Masons and the Zionists.
/geez

303

Surabaya Stew Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:51:07pm

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

It depends on how you define 'conservative'. People in Richmond aren't hippies, but they all vote Democrat.

There are no real Republican-voting areas of the Bay Area, except for wherever the Alameda County Republican Club meets on the first Wednesday of every month. We have Republicans, they're just geographically scattered.

If you go north, or inland, you come to more conservative-leaning areas.

Cool, thanks for filling me in. Not that I want to seek out GOP denizens of the area, but was wondering if there was a clear-cut difference in local political allegiances nearby SF. By contrast here in NYC, not only is Staten Island a GOP stronghold but a number neighboring towns and villages are fairly conservative, so politically they balance the city out a little.

304

Surabaya Stew Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:56:26pm

re: #300 LudwigVanQuixote

Of course you are right. I am not trying at all to say that the process is perfect. Every scientist has a story of a great paper that was killed by an idiot reviewer and every year dozens of less than amazing papers get out there because someone needed to get something out there.

However, on the other hand, in average, overall, it is a good rule of thumb that a paper with hundreds of citations - particularly hundreds of citations in branching applications is likely to be as true while the one with no citations from an obscure journal is at best unproven at first glance.

Again it may be that that obscure journal paper with no citations is exactly the piece you needed for your own research. It may even be like Lie and Gell Mann... however, if you are giving a general guideline and talking about sheer probabilities of what is more likely to be crap and what isn't, I think I am making a valid argument.

For those who don't know the story BTW, Sophus Lie was a mathematician in the 19th century. He wrote the paper on a subject called group theory. It was known to algebraists, (a type of mathematician) but few others until the 1960's. Almost a century later, Gell Mann sense a certain pattern in particle physics. He went to the math Dept at Cal Tech to ask about it. They said read Lie. He did. Ever after, Lie's math was central to particle theory. That is the best case I know of, of a paper being huge much after it's time. I am sure there are other examples, but it is the first that comes to mind.

Gregor Mendel and genetics come to mind as well and he wasn't even a professional scientist!

305

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:56:48pm

re: #304 Surabaya Stew

Gregor Mendel and genetics come to mind as well and he wasn't even a professional scientist!

Ohh great example!

306

Mark Winter Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:58:32pm

re: #299 Surabaya Stew

Actually, if you go to Southern Patagonia, early May is too late.. I'd say March/early April would be good. For Northern Patagonia, late April is still fine and for Mendoza, early May is perfect (wine harvest etc.).

Technically the Aconcagua is not really difficult and can be tackled by anyone with a good level of fitness. The main challenges are the weather and the altitude, which means that you should calculate 2 weeks for the climb (with acclimatization). Some people do it in one week though but I don't recommend it.

The weather is another problem. You go with a group and an experienced guide, and if he tells you "we go back", you go back... and for good reasons. The Andean storms can kill you, and temperatures can drop to -45°C (and that's without the wind chill factor).

But yes, "ordinary" fit tourists do the trip.

307

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, Dec 22, 2009 11:58:46pm

re: #286 Varek Raith

I have to ask. You're not a tyrant... of the Sciencey persuasion, are you?
/:)

Ohh I sooo want the title of science tyrant... I just love the idea...

308

Surabaya Stew Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:02:27am

re: #305 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh great example!

Yes, it's the example they failed to emphasize back in High School. My former secondary learning institutes made it seem that you had to be a super-specialist to be a scientist; it kinda pushed me away from the whole thing. A darn shame, as I struggled with steel and concrete structures in Architecture....

309

Mark Winter Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:03:14am

re: #307 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh I sooo want the title of science tyrant... I just love the idea...

You can have that one as long as I get the title of "Lord Oppressor of the Denialists"

310

Surabaya Stew Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:08:17am

re: #306 Mark Winter

Actually, if you go to Southern Patagonia, early May is too late.. I'd say March/early April would be good. For Northern Patagonia, late April is still fine and for Mendoza, early May is perfect (wine harvest etc.).

Technically the Aconcagua is not really difficult and can be tackled by anyone with a good level of fitness. The main challenges are the weather and the altitude, which means that you should calculate 2 weeks for the climb (with acclimatization). Some people do it in one week though but I don't recommend it.

The weather is another problem. You go with a group and an experienced guide, and if he tells you "we go back", you go back... and for good reasons. The Andean storms can kill you, and temperatures can drop to -45°C (and that's without the wind chill factor).

But yes, "ordinary" fit tourists do the trip.

Recap: Aconcagua....High Andean peak, dangerous weather that kills, thin air with less Oxygen, my flabby abs and hanging gut....wait, what was that about wine harvests in Mendoza again?
:-D

311

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:08:19am

re: #309 Mark Winter

You can have that one as long as I get the title of "Lord Oppressor of the Denialists"

Ohh that is good! Very a deal then oh Lord Oppressor. I like the renn fest sound to it too... it conjures images of black armor with spiky bits :)

312

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:09:08am

re: #309 Mark Winter

If the position of "Concubine Tester" is already taken, then I call dibs on "Blacksmith".

313

Surabaya Stew Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:11:55am

re: #312 Slumbering Behemoth

Groovy! I'd like to claim "Guardian Keeper of Bizarre Knowledge and Assorted Facts".

314

Mark Winter Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:14:33am

re: #300 LudwigVanQuixote

We know that "peer review" has not always been what it should have been. A tragic victim of ignorant peer review was Ignaz Semmelweis

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

But the scientific community has grown so much that those stories are far less likely today.

315

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:16:29am

re: #313 Surabaya Stew

Groovy! I'd like to claim "Guardian Keeper of Bizarre Knowledge and Assorted Facts".

Otherwise know as "The Trivial Librarian".
;)

316

Mark Winter Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:17:03am

re: #310 Surabaya Stew

Recap: Aconcagua...High Andean peak, dangerous weather that kills, thin air with less Oxygen, my flabby abs and hanging gut...wait, what was that about wine harvests in Mendoza again?

LOL, you can always compromise and not fully climb Aconcagua. They offer trips up to 4000 m as well. Enough time for the wine which is delicious.

317

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:17:08am

re: #314 Mark Winter

We know that "peer review" has not always been what it should have been. A tragic victim of ignorant peer review was Ignaz Semmelweis

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

But the scientific community has grown so much that those stories are far less likely today.

And that is a very important note. In an age of rapid communications between tens of thousands of researchers, something big gets out fast if it has the chops.

Relativity and QM did not languish.

318

Surabaya Stew Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:20:29am

re: #316 Mark Winter

LOL, you can always compromise and not fully climb Aconcagua. They offer trips up to 4000 m as well. Enough time for the wine which is delicious.

Sounds good. For me, the destination is like politics: it's all about compromise!

319

Surabaya Stew Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:22:19am

re: #315 Slumbering Behemoth

Otherwise know as "The Trivial Librarian".
;)

LOL! Methinks its a slow night for the "Concubine Tester", is it not?
:-D

320

Mark Winter Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:24:09am

re: #317 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes. Today you can't hide nonsense for long. And you cannot suppress good research for long.

Don't know how many specialists actually work on cosmic rays. But when WE find out about those studies, they already have.

It's true that quite a few people add some "global warming" to their research about whatever because right now that guarantees them more attention. But it also guarantees them a quick cull if they are not up to scratch.

321

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:24:12am

re: #319 Surabaya Stew

In the science world, concubines must be tested with a sufficient number of trial samples to ensure statistical accuracy.

322

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:26:12am

In the science world, concubines must be tested with a sufficient number of trial samples to ensure statistical accuracy.

Which is a principle Feynman employed most rigorously....

323

Mark Winter Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:26:22am

re: #319 Surabaya Stew

Yesterday we were talking about Dr. Strangelove suggesting a gender ratio of "ten females to each male," with the women selected for their stimulating sexual characteristics...

yeah it's kinda slow tonight

324

Surabaya Stew Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:27:11am

re: #321 LudwigVanQuixote

In the science world, concubines must be tested with a sufficient number of trial samples to ensure statistical accuracy.

That's really hard work to keep on testing the concubines over and over again; hope you find a good test administrator.
;-)

325

Mark Winter Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:27:57am

re: #322 LudwigVanQuixote

and Tiger Woods

326

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:28:58am

re: #324 Surabaya Stew

That's really hard work to keep on testing the concubines over and over again; hope you find a good test administrator.
;-)

Well it is a hard job... only the best can do science right!

327

Surabaya Stew Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:32:27am

re: #323 Mark Winter

Yesterday we were talking about Dr. Strangelove suggesting a gender ratio of "ten females to each male," with the women selected for their stimulating sexual characteristics...

yeah it's kinda slow tonight

What a tough life it must have been for Dr. Strangelove after the bombs; poor man.
/

Anyhoo, am drifting off....
....Concubine Tester, Lord Oppressor of the Denialists, Science Tyrant: y'all stay scaly!

328

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:34:45am

re: #327 Surabaya Stew

I'm almost jealous.. his title is really cool...

329

Mark Winter Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:35:00am

Of course there's also the job of pre-selecting the concubines to be tested...

330

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:36:41am

re: #329 Mark Winter

Of course there's also the job of pre-selecting the concubines to be tested...

And don't forget Igor wrangler...

331

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:48:34am

re: #325 Mark Winter

"I like See's candy. Put me in a See's store, I'm eating candy. The whole world is Tiger's See's store, and the candy is vagina."

- Justin's dad

332

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:59:35am

re: #324 Surabaya Stew

re: #326 LudwigVanQuixote

It is a difficult occupation, but one that I can assure you gentlemen that I am up too. The testing is rigorous and exhaustive, as the Tyrant's standards are quite stiff.

The applicants often make it hard for me, but I am never the less stout in my charge. A daunting task, indeed, but I will not go limp in the duty assigned to me.

333

theheat Wed, Dec 23, 2009 1:42:35am

I don't think this CPAC is going to be entertaining at all. If anything, it will be wildly embarrassing. If you ever suspected anyone of being off the rails crazy, they're now emboldened to open their yaps and remove all doubt; all the crazy they've quietly subscribed to is going to come out like a firehose.

Like, worse than when actors on soap operas decide to sing, and you plug your ears and go lah-lah-lah because you cannot endure the embarrassment. Yeah, that kind of entertainment.

I may watch, but I think I'll turn the sound way down. And sniff airplane glue.

334

Obdicut Wed, Dec 23, 2009 6:09:12am

re: #300 LudwigVanQuixote

Mendel is the best example of work becoming relevant after its time, in my opinion.

335

irving Wed, Dec 23, 2009 6:17:45am

CPAC is going to be a strange show, no matter how you slice it. I suspect it'll be terrific fodder for Democratic political ads for all of 2010. It would be an immense surprise, but if Pawlenty or Jindal took the opportunity to march into the lion's den and flat out denounce the crazy it would be fantastic. This one's right up there is Santa Claus giving me a pony, but still...

336

jayzee Wed, Dec 23, 2009 7:20:20am

The GOP needs to understand that there's a big difference between being a conservative and being a racist, misogynistic, homophobic, theocratic asshat. Again, like I said time and time again during last year's campaign when I would call my party, Paul needed to be weeded out or the ramifications will be horrific for us.

Still hoping for some body to bring sanity back to the party.

337

hickph Wed, Dec 23, 2009 7:23:20am

This development would be funny if it weren't so damning to the current status of the GOP. But what do you expect when policy positions are being formulated by Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, etc.? This utterly rudderless Republican "leadership" in Washington is best reflected by Boehner and McConnell, who have permitted nuts such as Bachmann and Inhofe to be the faces of the party.

For the life of me, I can't figure out - as a political strategy - what is at work here for the GOP. The Republicans may receive a temporary jolt in Nov. 2010, but they have set themselves up to be marginalized by the Democrats when the campaign season ramps up. Bringing the JBS back into the fold, while at the same time booting out folks such as Scozzafava and probably Crist, doesn't translate into a formula for long-term success.

And yet, you see the Newsweek interview where Pawlenty grovels to the far right, while Palin is somehow embraced as a greatest political philosopher since Pla-, Plat-, oh, yeah, Playdough.

It's the Republican Party's own funeral, but if it wants to be a movement of white evangelical conspiracy theorists who abhor scientific inquiry, gays and individuals with different skin colors, so be it. Sure, the party may yet poll a bare majority in an off-year election cycle. But as the demographics become more and more unfavorable, the GOP - in its present state - is headed down a road to irrelevancy.

338

Sharmuta Wed, Dec 23, 2009 7:43:46am

re: #337 hickph

It's the Republican Party's own funeral

Indeed- and it's not a healthy development politically for the country. Glad that others can find it so humorous, though. Nothing like laughter at a funeral.

339

Sharmuta Wed, Dec 23, 2009 7:46:26am

WHAT WAS SEEN AT CPAC 2009

Peter Brimelow [founder of Vdare- ed.] and his 24-year-old bride Lydia Sullivan-Brimelow, the two observing their first wedding anniversary on Tuesday, were there for the entire conference, leaving just a few hours before it ended. In an interview with writer Max Blumenthal, Brimelow, declaring that the Republican Party "is a White party" that loses because they do not try to mobilize their base, dismisses support for Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal, the East Indian-American who is seen as the frontrunner for the 2012 Republican Nomination for President. "There's a lot of white guilt in the Republican Party, so he will appeal to that," he said. "I actually don't know much about his political views. Does he have political views?"

340

Vambo Wed, Dec 23, 2009 8:19:45am

I knew Maddow would be the only one talking about this. She's the only mainstream news person worth watching anymore.

341

huggy77 Wed, Dec 23, 2009 8:33:10am

re: #27 JasonA

Mark Levin is a genius on the subject of Constitutional Law - his voice might be high pitched but genius springs from those pipes... Alot of libs don't like him because his arguments are based on fact and not emotion...

In regards to the Birch Society, the GDP needs to stop this crap... Get rid of the birthers, build a platform around reducing the size of government, lowering taxes and free market solutions... Put more power in the hands of the states and let them decide about the social issues...

342

Vambo Wed, Dec 23, 2009 8:53:20am

re: #341 huggy77

Genius? Didn't he nominate Rush Limbaugh for the Nobel Peace Prize? LMAO.

343

jayzee Wed, Dec 23, 2009 8:56:15am

re: #341 huggy77

I saw the downding for Mark Levin, I haven't listened much lately but has he gone off the rails too? If so when? Also, anyone know of any conservatives that haven't gone to the dark side on talk radio?

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palomino Wed, Dec 23, 2009 8:56:47am

re: #339 Sharmuta

WHAT WAS SEEN AT CPAC 2009

How much longer can a strategy like this work in a country that gets 1% less white each passing year? Only if the GOP is happy being the Southern White Christian Party. Maybe they are...it fits in with their apocalyptic "defend the Alamo" rhetoric.

345

mojo9 Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:02:55am

I'm finding it harder lately to avoid becoming apathetic, as it seems the looters in DC aren't really listening to their constituents. Considering donating to these folks: [Link: goooh.com...]

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Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:03:41am

re: #341 huggy77

Mark Levin is a genius on the subject of Constitutional Law - his voice might be high pitched but genius springs from those pipes... Alot of libs don't like him because his arguments are based on fact and not emotion...

In regards to the Birch Society, the GDP needs to stop this crap... Get rid of the birthers, build a platform around reducing the size of government, lowering taxes and free market solutions... Put more power in the hands of the states and let them decide about the social issues...

Oh yeah, "genius." A creationist who screams at the top of his lungs when someone calls in to set him straight about "intelligent design," then hangs up on him. A guy who calls health care reform "Hitleresque," and says Sarah Palin was "absolutely right" about her idiotic "death panel" remark. Who speaks at tea parties and praises lunatic Michele Bachmann, and compares Al Gore to Jim Jones.

Some "genius" you have there. Excuse me if I'm not quite as enthusiastic as you are.

347

huggy77 Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:03:47am

re: #342 Vambo

If you like the idea of a large government, powerless states and the constitution being ignored you will not agree with Levin... If you think the constitution is still a meaningful document and that a small federal government is a good thing, you will think he is a genius...

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Charles Johnson Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:06:06am

re: #335 irving

CPAC is going to be a strange show, no matter how you slice it. I suspect it'll be terrific fodder for Democratic political ads for all of 2010. It would be an immense surprise, but if Pawlenty or Jindal took the opportunity to march into the lion's den and flat out denounce the crazy it would be fantastic. This one's right up there is Santa Claus giving me a pony, but still...

Why would they do that? Pawlenty and Jindal are just as crazy as the craziest tea partiers.

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recusancy Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:10:06am

re: #335 irving

CPAC is going to be a strange show, no matter how you slice it. I suspect it'll be terrific fodder for Democratic political ads for all of 2010. It would be an immense surprise, but if Pawlenty or Jindal took the opportunity to march into the lion's den and flat out denounce the crazy it would be fantastic. This one's right up there is Santa Claus giving me a pony, but still...

Charles did a post on Pawlenty a few days ago and Jindal does exorcisms. I think they fit right in with the crazy.

350

Randall Gross Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:17:21am

re: #347 huggy77

If you think the constitution is still a meaningful document and that a small federal government is a good thing,

I like efficient government and as an atheist if I come close to worshipping anything it's our constitution and bill of rights. I don't consider Mark Levin anywhere near genius.

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Vambo Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:23:18am

re: #347 huggy77

If you like the idea of a large government, powerless states and the constitution being ignored you will not agree with Levin... If you think the constitution is still a meaningful document and that a small federal government is a good thing, you will think he is a genius...

The Constitution is a living, changing document for a living, changing world. If you want to live in 1776 I guess you can start building a time machine, but don't ask for my help.

I believe in good government, big or small. I have to wonder about the motives of anyone who preaches "small government" - it makes sense that the government would grow with the population of the country. If all you care about is making the government smaller, then why? Do you want to represent less people?

352

huggy77 Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:31:43am

re: #346 Charles

A guy who calls health care reform "Hitleresque,"

This comment was made in regards to Ezekial Emanuel - an adviser to the current administration, who has writtern articles on health care rationing... The idea of health care rationing is what is leading to death panel arguments.

Who speaks at tea parties

Oh Noes! People being vocal about wanting smaller government....

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huggy77 Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:34:58am

The Constitution is a living, changing document for a living, changing world. If you want to live in 1776 I guess you can start building a time machine, but don't ask for my help.

The constitution changes via amendments, it should still be followed not tap danced on...

I cant build a time machine but i can buy you a ticket to a socialist European country...

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Frogmarch Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:37:58am

Not everyone the the "right" is happy about the John Birch society at CPAC:

[Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]

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jayzee Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:39:40am

re: #351 Vambo

"Big Government" sucks. You think you can grow the government and have less encroachment into our liberties? I doubt it. Ask yourself this, do you want a potential Jindal presidency to handle what we teach nationally in public schools? Or a Huccabbee making all decisions regarding abortion and rights for homosexuals? That is what I fear about big government. It's all good until your side loses an election.

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huggy77 Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:43:48am

re: #355 jayzee

Exactly, because the people you agree with will not always be in power...

357

jayzee Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:44:16am

re: #352 huggy77

Oh Noes! People being vocal about wanting smaller government...

Everyone needs to stop making holocaust references.

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andres Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:46:59am

re: #11 Mich-again

I refuse to call GOP the current incarnation of the Republican Party. It severed the ties it had with the illustrious past it had for populist idiocy.

Slightly OT/Local Nettiquette: How should I reply to several posts? All in one gigantic post, or each one separately?

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recusancy Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:48:01am

re: #355 jayzee

"Big Government" sucks. You think you can grow the government and have less encroachment into our liberties? I doubt it. Ask yourself this, do you want a potential Jindal presidency to handle what we teach nationally in public schools? Or a Huccabbee making all decisions regarding abortion and rights for homosexuals? That is what I fear about big government. It's all good until your side loses an election.

So you want smaller government by getting rid of public schools? And you think giving abortion rights and homosexuals equal rights is more government?

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andres Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:48:06am

re: #353 huggy77

Why do you hate the Air Force so much? =( I'm not in any Army branch, but I always have a love for Air Force's jets.

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Vambo Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:50:46am

re: #355 jayzee

"Big Government" sucks. You think you can grow the government and have less encroachment into our liberties? I doubt it. Ask yourself this, do you want a potential Jindal presidency to handle what we teach nationally in public schools? Or a Huccabbee making all decisions regarding abortion and rights for homosexuals? That is what I fear about big government. It's all good until your side loses an election.

We've already had presidents trying to control what is taught in public schools - see Bush's abstinence initiative. Gay rights have always been a fight - however, as the government has gotten bigger over time, gays have been securing more rights than ever.

People think "less government" = less corruption which is beyond foolish IMO, it's the same establishment we've had for 200 years. For politicians, "less government" = less democracy, less oversight, less accountability to their voters.

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Vambo Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:53:31am

re: #353 huggy77

I cant build a time machine but i can buy you a ticket to a socialist European country...

that would be wonderful. make it France, I've always wanted to see Paris. plus, best health care in world!

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jayzee Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:54:51am

re: #359 recusancy

So you want smaller government by getting rid of public schools? And you think giving abortion rights and homosexuals equal rights is more government?

I don't even know what you're talking about. The post I replied to said, "it makes sense that the government would grow with the population of the country". I disagree with that statement. I never said shutter public schools and I don't know what you are referring to re abortion rights and homosexual rights. I don't think giving people rights is big government. I think it's smaller government. The right which always screams for small government wants to put an amendment out that will prohibit homosexual rights and abortions. THAT is hypocritical of them. The left, who is for expanding the role of government screams when the right intrudes into our bedrooms etc. That too is hypocritical. Both should serve to warn us about the potential pitfalls of big government.

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Vambo Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:55:18am

re: #352 huggy77

health care rationing

just... ignorant.

we ALREADY HAVE health care rationing.

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jayzee Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:59:33am

re: #361 Vambo

We've already had presidents trying to control what is taught in public schools - see Bush's abstinence initiative. Gay rights have always been a fight - however, as the government has gotten bigger over time, gays have been securing more rights than ever.

People think "less government" = less corruption which is beyond foolish IMO, it's the same establishment we've had for 200 years. For politicians, "less government" = less democracy, less oversight, less accountability to their voters.

Less corruption, rofl. Never happen. As far as the latter part, I really don't see the argument. The way we're set up, there is accountability on the voter, local and national levels. I am not advocating no government mind you, just expressing concerns about making the federal government too big.

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andres Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:01:51am

re: #20 Killgore Trout

Conservatives should take note of the pure glee in her voice while giving this report. The Birch Society, Glenn Beck and the Tea Parties are gifts to the progressives beyond anything they could reasonably hope for.

It would be kinda funny if it weren't so ugly: the Far Right support them (JBS, GB, Tea Parties, Palin, etc) because they believe they anger the Far Left. Meanwhile, the Far Left is gleefully watching all this idiocy from the sidelines (perhaps getting a breather before tearing themselves apart), while the left-of-center, center and right-of-center are against them because all the Far Right is doing is handing the progressives a blank check.

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huggy77 Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:03:41am

we ALREADY HAVE health care rationing.

Work hard, make money, make an informed decision and purchase the coverage you want... Then your health care is not rationed...

368

livfreeordie Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:04:07am

354
Yes...from your link "Obviously, there's a double-standard here. Oliver Stone and Rosie "metal can't burn" O'Donnell are just as disconnected from reality as the Birchers, but since they're on the left, they get a pass. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. So, while we shouldn't be quizzing potential supporters as to whether they believe in the black helicopters, no organization based on the notion of a vast, global conspiracy has any business being admitted to conservative councils."

I think the worst of the left is worse than the worst of the right...and sometimes they meet up...The march to all-controlling socialism (or worse, ummah) saddens me...The Pawlentys of this world from a policy perspective don't scare me too much. Creationist Americans of, say, the 1880s might have laughed at Unitarians for believing in evolution and not in Jesus as the Son of God...but the Unitarians had free speech...they could be politically incorrect....try being politically incorrect on a campus these days... even Yale stopped anti-Harvard t-shirts using an F. Scott Fitzgerald quote calling Harvard men sissies (meaning "wusses", not anti-gay)....crazy...thanks to Charles for the site..

369

Obdicut Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:06:48am

re: #367 huggy77

What if your insurance company denies you coverage for a procedure?

370

jayzee Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:09:15am

re: #369 Obdicut

What if your insurance company denies you coverage for a procedure?

What if the FDA blocks a medicine that is available in the EU but not in the states? Health care needed to be looked at, and should be, but not from one angle. Have a great day Obdicut, I gotta hop.

371

celticdragon Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:13:48am

re: #367 huggy77

Work hard, make money, make an informed decision and purchase the coverage you want... Then your health care is not rationed...

Work hard, make money...and watch as the insurer you have denies life saving care to your kid because their actuarial tables predict it will be cheaper to absorb the cost of your lawsuit than to pay for the treatments.

Quarterly statements, bee-hotches!

Also, where does your scenario leave those of us who are uninsurable in any open market to begin with? All three of us in my family have "pre-existing conditions" that make it impossible to get private insurance at any price. We have already had to dump tens of thousands of dollars of medical bills not covered by our employer based insurance onto YOU and every other tax payer when we declared bankruptcy.

You act like this is some sort of actual "system" worth saving.

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huggy77 Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:13:50am

re: #369 Obdicut

What if your insurance company denies you coverage for a procedure?

Making an informed decision on your insurance b4 you purchase it...

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celticdragon Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:20:46am

re: #369 Obdicut

What if your insurance company denies you coverage for a procedure?

My insurer denied all kinds of stuff. Over ten thousand dollars of stuff. Our medical bills were twice all of our other combined debt excepting student loans (which are not covered by bankruptcy anyway)

Everybody here ends up paying for it, since we had to declare bankruptcy and dump the unpaid bills on the public. We could not possibly deal with 18 different medical providers all demanding thousands of dollars of payments simultaneously...especially after I was on medical disability and not working.

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huggy77 Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:21:52am

re: #371 celticdragon
The current system works for a majority of people, i sympathize with your situation. I would rather find a smaller scale solution (and fund via tax dollars) for those in your predicament than to junk the current system which provides great care and drives the market for new medical advances in both treatment and medicine...

375

hellosnackbar Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:29:03am

Sometime in the sixties I followes an interesting television series entitled
"The firing line"
It was hosted by a certain William F Buckley jnr.
It quickly became clear that this chap was articulate,well educated,and
could apply lacerating logic to any discission he took part in.
The final program of the series was when he put himself in the firing of Britains leading left wing intellectuals of the day.
It was a massacre as Bill chidingly took apart each and everyone of them
by the pure force of his own intellect.
That even t changed my politics on an overnight basis as everything he said was just plain common sense.
It's a shame that today's so called conservatives are by comparison
veritable pygmies.
Recently I read on another blog some halfwit comparing Buckley to
Glenn Beck and Hannity???
FFS.

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celticdragon Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:33:47am

re: #372 huggy77

Making an informed decision on your insurance b4 you purchase it...

LMAO!

You are sooo precious!

You actually think that people have a choice about what insurance they buy! Here in North Carolina, BCBS is the de facto insurer of everybody! Insurers and major league baseball are the only two industries with anti trust exemptions.

Also, insurers make sure that your employer is the customer, and not you. You are a consumer, but you have no negotiating power as a customer. The flow of information is strictly one way. You cannot get information on what your policy will actually do or cover after you buy in, nor can you reasonably "shop" for procedure prices. Hospitals DO NOT give up front, bottom line quotes on how much your surgery will cost. This is another reason why medical tourism is so attractive, since a hospital in Phuket, Thailand actually will give you the bottom line price for a procedure.

HMO's are a racket. If you don't play, than you pay through the nose. If you do play, you never know just what your insurance will cover or not cover. If you or your spouse gets really sick...maybe your policy gets rescinded.

This is what happens when corporate profit margins are incentivized ahead of life saving medical care.

More "informed" customers are no answer at all. It is time to change the incentives and make care the objective instead of pleasing shareholders.

I don't want my son's life to depend on whether the company is making it's third quarter margin. Would you?

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Obdicut Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:39:04am

re: #370 jayzee

In other words, you dodge the question and then leave.

Typical.

378

Obdicut Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:40:03am

re: #372 huggy77

And what if they change your coverage after you buy it, which they can legally do, and they do do all the time?

379

huggy77 Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:40:26am

re: #376 celticdragon

Then open up the restrictions on buying insurance over state lines... There is a free market answer for this, despite what some representatives have told us...

380

Obdicut Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:42:37am

re: #379 huggy77

When the market for credit cards was opened across state lines, every credit card company flocked to Delaware, which had the weakest consumer protection laws.

Why do you not think the exact same thing would happen for health insurance?

381

andres Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:42:47am

re: #140 Racer X

Change Nobody Believes In

A bill so reckless that it has to be rammed through on a partisan vote on Christmas eve.

Mr. Obama promised a new era of transparent good government, yet on Saturday morning Mr. Reid threw out the 2,100-page bill that the world's greatest deliberative body spent just 17 days debating and replaced it with a new "manager's amendment" that was stapled together in covert partisan negotiations.

Democrats are barely even bothering to pretend to care what's in it, not that any Senator had the chance to digest it in the 38 hours before the first cloture vote at 1 a.m. this morning. After procedural motions that allow for no amendments, the final vote could come at 9 p.m. on December 24.

For crying out loud, the HCR has been discussed since way before June! How much more ~~punishment~~ discussion do you want? If you consider 9+ months too fast, I'd hate to see what you consider slow.

If anyone has to carry the blame for the badly written HCR are the Republican Congresspeople! They were offered more than enough opportunities to have their real, actual input to improve the bill and they decided to not contribute anything and vote for it, leaving Pelosi, Reid, Nelson, et al to write it among themselves.

382

What, me worry? Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:44:31am

re: #376 celticdragon

Wow. Incredible answer!

I think people who don't understand these things simple are healthy people. They don't really need their insurance. I mean, most women see their gyno annually, but even that isn't a big deal. You get the check up and leave. 99% of the time you're fine. Do men go at all if they aren't keeling over? I don't think so.

Anyway, I'm so disappointed at the Democrats, I could spit. And it's not because they are doing too much, they are doing too little. If they don't include a public option, I'd be surprised if Obama gets reelected in 2012.

383

celticdragon Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:46:35am

re: #380 Obdicut

When the market for credit cards was opened across state lines, every credit card company flocked to Delaware, which had the weakest consumer protection laws.

Why do you not think the exact same thing would happen for health insurance?

Exactly. I am generally sceptical about new federal laws...but if we are to prevent an insurer rush to North Dakota or some such, than actual national standards will have to be implemented and price fixing shenanigans stamped out.

384

celticdragon Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:50:18am

Out for a bit. BBL.

385

Sharmuta Wed, Dec 23, 2009 11:55:54am

re: #345 mojo9

I'm finding it harder lately to avoid becoming apathetic, as it seems the looters in DC aren't really listening to their constituents.

I'm already there.

386

andres Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:26:55pm

re: #379 huggy77

Then open up the restrictions on buying insurance over state lines... There is a free market answer for this, despite what some representatives have told us...

Free market theory is just a tool. A damn useful one, btw, but just a tool. There will be cases where it excels, and there will be cases that it will tank. A fact of life.

The insurance industry, in general, is not very free-market friendly industry, as seen in their business model. Applying blindingly the free-market theory to all industries regardless of the actual modus operandi is a recipe for disaster.

387

jayzee Wed, Dec 23, 2009 1:41:46pm

re: #377 Obdicut

In other words, you dodge the question and then leave.

Typical.

typical? I was saying hi before I left. I've never dodged one of your questions. I don't agree with you, but I don't dodge. That wasn't very nice. Next time, i will cancel my meeting cool?

388

Vambo Wed, Dec 23, 2009 7:31:24pm

re: #374 huggy77

which provides great care and drives the market for new medical advances in both treatment and medicine...

Did you know that the government funds most pharmaceutical research?

"Great care"? The #1 cause of bankruptcy in America is medical bills. That doesn't sound like great care. It's actually part of the reason we're in the muck right now.

389

Vambo Wed, Dec 23, 2009 7:35:21pm

re: #382 marjoriemoon

Wow. Incredible answer!

I think people who don't understand these things simple are healthy people. They don't really need their insurance. I mean, most women see their gyno annually, but even that isn't a big deal. You get the check up and leave. 99% of the time you're fine. Do men go at all if they aren't keeling over? I don't think so.

Exactly. They think "I've never had a problem, so the system must be working!". And then they do what huggy77 does when they hear about the reality - "I sympathize with you, but I'm going to ignore what you're telling me and keep living in my fantasy world. Bye now!"

390

Vambo Wed, Dec 23, 2009 7:46:12pm

re: #363 jayzee

The right which always screams for small government wants to put an amendment out that will prohibit homosexual rights and abortions. THAT is hypocritical of them. The left, who is for expanding the role of government screams when the right intrudes into our bedrooms etc. That too is hypocritical. Both should serve to warn us about the potential pitfalls of big government.

It's not hypocritical, it's simply proves that arguments about the size of government are a meaningless waste of time. The bottom line is that the government should be efficient. Saying you want the government "smaller" doesn't help - you have to be specific. People who run on a platform of smaller government always end up doing things like cutting funding for hospitals and public schools, while simultaneously cutting back oversight on the private sector (and pocketing big bucks from lobbyists), resulting in things like the housing crisis - Michelle Bachmann is a big "small government" supporter, and her MN district has the highest rate of the foreclosures in the state.

391

ernie1241 Wed, Dec 23, 2009 7:54:36pm

Interested individuals should study why J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI arrived at the conclusion in FBI memos that John Birch Society founder Robert Welch and the JBS were “extremist”, “irrational”, “irresponsible”, “fanatics” and “lunatic fringe”.

99% of readers are not familiar with the underlying premises of JBS ideology. For more than 50 years, the JBS has defamed and attacked the patriotism, character, integrity, & loyalty of virtually our entire national leadership — and it refers to our national political leaders as “a conspiracy of gangsters”.

In private remarks to the first meeting of his JBS National Council on January 9, 1960, at Union League Club in Chicago, Robert Welch made these observations about the gravity of our situation:

“From a careful and realistic study of the mountainous pile of evidence that is there for all to see, certain terrifying conclusions are objectively inescapable. Among them are:
(1) The Communists are winning their large victories, as they always have, through the cumulative effect of small gains;
(2) They make these gains chiefly through the conniving assistance of many of the very diplomats and officials who are supposed to be opposing them;
(3) Communist influences are now in almost complete working control of our government;
(4) And hence, the U.S. Government is today, as it has been for many years, the most important and powerful single force promoting the world-wide Communist advance.”
[A Confidential Report To Members Of The Council of The John Birch Society – minutes of 1/9/60 JBS National Council meeting, pages 1-2; signed by Robert Welch.]

Furthermore, according to the minutes of this meeting, Robert Welch stated:

“Today, gentlemen, I can assure you, without the slightest doubt in my own mind that the takeover at the top is, for all practical purposes, virtually complete. Whether you like it or not, or whether you believe it or not, our Federal Government is already, literally in the hands of the Communists.” [Ibid, page 2]
“In our two states with the largest population, New York and California …already the two present Governors are almost certainly actual Communists…Our Congress now contains a number of men like Adam Clayton Powell of New York and Charles Porter of Oregon, who are certainly actual Communists, and plenty more who are sympathetic to Communist purposes for either ideological or opportunistic reasons.” [Ibid, page 7]
[Note: the reference to Governors refers to Edmund G. Brown of CA and Nelson Rockefeller of NY.]
“In the Senate, there are men like Stephen Young of Ohio, and Wayne Morse of Oregon, McNamara of Michigan, and Clifford Case of New Jersey and Hubert Humphrey of Minnesota and Estes Kefauver of Tennessee and John F. Kennedy of Massachusetts, whom it is utter folly to think of as just liberals. Every one of those men is either an actual Communist or so completely a Communist sympathizer or agent that it makes no practical difference…” [Ibid, page 8]
“Our Supreme Court, dominated by Earl Warren and Felix Frankfurter and Hugo Black, is so visibly pro-Communist that no argument is even needed…And our federal courts below that level…are in many cases just as bad.” [Ibid, page 8]

“It is estimated from many reliable sources that from 70% to 90% of the responsible personnel in the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare are Communists. Our CIA under Allen Dulles is nothing more or less nothing more or less than an agency to promote Communism throughout the world…Almost all the other Departments are loaded with Communists and Communist sympathizers. And this generalization most specifically does include our whole Defense Department.” [Ibid, page 8]

FBI FILES ON BIRCH SOCIETY:
[Link: ernie1241.googlepages.com...]

392

ernie1241 Wed, Dec 23, 2009 7:58:35pm

re: #9 Mich-again

American Free Press is not a JBS publication. The JBS publishes a bi-weekly magazine entitled The New American (which replaced American Opinion magazine). It also publishes the JBS Bulletin for its membership. American Free Press is a publication of Willis Carto.

393

jayzee Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:25:15pm

re: #390 Vambo

That's why I put "big government" in quotes. I think it is somewhat of a moving target and open to interpretation. How is it determined? Size? Size of budget? I view it as federal government intervention in things that I don't think they should be involved in. And Bachmann is a perfect example of what I am talking about in regards to the hypocrisy of the right.

That being said, I have yet to see, in private industry or public works a large bureaucracy that was more "efficient" than a smaller one, but even that is beyond the point. My point, my original concern remains. "Big government" lends itself nicely to the loss of our rights at some time. Even if it grows under a beneficial government, once the powers are expanded, they have been expanded. I seem to recall the left screaming about this in regards to Cheney and the perceived expansion of power within the executive branch not too long ago.

394

oriana fan Wed, Dec 23, 2009 11:12:52pm

Ok, Charles, you have almost convinced me to drop the GOP as well. I cannot believe that no one from the RNC is up in arms about the JBS being invited. nevertheless, where does one go without the GOP? The Liberal hawks (Cranston and jackson) aint coming back and the not crazy GOPs (Cantor) do not get enough traction to make a difference. WFB...oh I miss you so.

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