Malkin Links to ‘Buzzworthy’ Anti-Israel Rant at White Nationalist Website

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Since I made a public break with the rabid right, wingnut blogs all over the web have been sending love (read: vicious attacks) my way, which isn’t surprising since one of the reasons I listed for my departure was the vicious hate speech found everywhere on wingnut blogs. And one of the common themes that bubbles to the surface in these smear attacks is that since I’ve renounced the right, it’s now only a matter of time before I “abandon support for Israel.”

So imagine the irony when one of the right wing’s iconic heroes, Michelle Malkin, who also owns wingnut blog Hot Air, linked this morning to the following “Buzzworthy” post at white nationalist website vdare.com:

The article to which Malkin linked is a deranged antisemitic screed by conspiracy theorist and 9/11 Truther Paul Craig Roberts, accusing Israel of committing “genocide” and ranting crazily about the “Israel lobby.”

Who’s “abandoning Israel” now?

(And note that right below the link to a white nationalist hate site, there’s a link to white supremacist blogger Robert Stacy McCain.)

VDARE.com: 12/13/09 - For Palestinians, Every Day Is Kristallnacht.

“Settlers attack West Bank mosque and burn holy Muslim books” was a London Times headline on December 11, 2009.  

These attacks, together with the demolition of Palestinian homes, the uprooting of Palestinians’ olive groves, the innumerable checkpoints that prevent Palestinians from accessing schools, work, and medical care, the Israeli Wall that denies Palestinians access to the land stolen from them, and the isolation and blockade of the Gaza Ghetto, are part of the Israeli government’s policy of genocide for the Palestinians.  

The Israel Lobby has such power over America that even former President Jimmy Carter, a good friend of Israel, is demonized for using the polite term—apartheid—for the genocide that has occurred over the decades during which American “Christian” preachers, together with bought-and-paid-for politicians, justified Israel’s policy of slow genocide for Palestine.

(Hat tip: Thanos.)

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390 comments
1 freetoken  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:48:09am

Hate knows no boundaries.

2 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:50:30am

Wow, Thanks for the screenshot. She's already changed it. Disgraceful.

3 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:52:20am

Stacy McCain would probably say, "What wrong with that? They say the same thing on Haaretz!"

4 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:52:40am

I would think one would have to be on some very powerful drugs to think Jimmy carter is a good friends of Israel.

5 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:52:59am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

Wow, Thanks for the screenshot. She's already changed it. Disgraceful.

Too little, too late. She was stupid to link to anything from VDARE or give them any platform at all. It's a racist hate site and should be shunned.

6 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:53:25am

Oh that's Paul Craig Roberts, he's an old fashioned Juice-hater, of the Puke-cannon variety.

7 Mark Pennington  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:54:29am

Wow, she's not even trying to hide it anymore.

8 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:55:08am

re: #7 beekiller

Wow, she's not even trying to hide it anymore.

Actually, she is trying to hide it. She already pulled the link.

9 Mark Pennington  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:55:28am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

Wow, Thanks for the screenshot. She's already changed it. Disgraceful.

She removed that link?

10 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:55:30am

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

Look at the recent articles list at VDARE. Malkin's articles are posted right next to Buchanan's.

11 suchislife  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:55:55am

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

Exactly. It's not so much whether she agrees with this particular article, or promotes it (although I do think one should call her on the link, like Charles did), but that such links will happen when you regularly associate with racists,

12 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:56:07am

re: #9 beekiller

Her Buzzworthy section changes a few times a day.

13 freetoken  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:56:51am

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

Perhaps it was just a test balloon, sent up to see what kind of reaction it would bring? Or, a way to advertise VDARE on the sly?

I for one don't believe she is at all embarrassed by VDARE... rather, she is trying to find a way to mainstream them.

14 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:56:51am

Did everyone visit the Zionist Mall? Ahava Dead Sea products.

15 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:56:58am

The title itself is openly antisemitic: "For Palestinians, Every Day Is Kristallnacht."

Disgusting.

16 Mark Pennington  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:57:34am

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

Actually, she is trying to hide it. She already pulled the link.

ah, thanks. I didn't want to waste valuable time on her site today.

17 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:58:11am

re: #15 Charles

The title itself is openly antisemitic: "For Palestinians, Every Day Is Kristallnacht."

Disgusting.

Except they don't tell you, it's Hamas and Fatah thugs breaking stuff and killing people.

18 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:58:11am

Nuckin' Futs.

19 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 9:59:44am

It isn't there now.

20 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:00:02am

Every day, Israel fights this nonsensical slur. Every day, Israel has to fight against jihadis who urge Israel's destruction. And every day, Israel has to struggle in an existential battle all while surrounded by those who would rather see its destruction.

It's reprehensible to provide the jihadis and the Palestinians with still more propaganda that undermines Israel's security situation. Every day Israel battles a terror state on its border, even after unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza. Every day, Israel has to cope with Palestinian terrorists who would hope to carry out mass casualty attacks or kidnap still more Israelis to secure the release of thousands of Palestinian terrorists in Israeli jails.

Ugh.

21 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:01:24am

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

Actually, she is trying to hide it. She already pulled the link.

So what do you think? A mistake or something more sinister?

22 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:01:29am

re: #13 freetoken

I for one don't believe she is at all embarrassed by VDARE... rather, she is trying to find a way to mainstream them.

And she'll be getting more opportunities to do that, imo, as there is immigration reform legislation working its way through Congress. The Tea Parties likely will not miss a beat, and simply trade in their healthcare signs for immigration ones.

23 Slap  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:02:45am

re: #13 freetoken

Perhaps I'm being dangerously LGF-y here....

....but I find these MM "accidents" and sudden removals of the "accidents" to be disingenuous behavior.

I think it's a ham-handed attempt to keep the ideas she clearly loves out there while maintaining what she perceives to be a nice deniability zone. I believe that none of these postings are accidental in any sense.

If that makes me a narrow-minded old coot who automatically thinks unkindly of drooling lunatics with audiences, well, so be it.

24 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:02:55am

re: #21 Blueheron

So what do you think? A mistake or something more sinister?

Malkin writes for Vdare- why would she think it's a mistake to be associated with them if she allows them to publish her work?

25 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:04:19am

re: #21 Blueheron

So what do you think? A mistake or something more sinister?

[Link: www.vdare.com...]

26 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:04:54am

re: #21 Blueheron

So what do you think? A mistake or something more sinister?

I'm betting on "something more sinister". Malkin's columns are on VDARE already. She's trying to mainstream them, just like freetoken said.

27 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:05:08am

re: #13 freetoken

Perhaps it was just a test balloon, sent up to see what kind of reaction it would bring? Or, a way to advertise VDARE on the sly?

I for one don't believe she is at all embarrassed by VDARE... rather, she is trying to find a way to mainstream them.

Yup, that's exactly what she's doing.

28 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:05:23am

re: #24 Sharmuta

Malkin writes for Vdare- why would she think it's a mistake to be associated with them if she allows them to publish her work?

She doesn't like to advertise her association with them. Which strongly implies that she's well aware of their positions.

She can always claim that VDARE just linked to her already existing articles.

29 SteveC  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:05:50am

This must be an imposter. The real Michelle Malkin must be locked away in one of these re-education camps we keep hearing about.

/Straighten up and fly right, Malkin. You've got shit on your hands that Ajax can't clean off.

30 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:06:08am

re: #28 SixDegrees

Ah, yes. Everyone's favorite- plausible deniability.

31 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:06:17am

re: #15 Charles

The title itself is openly antisemitic: "For Palestinians, Every Day Is Kristallnacht."

Disgusting.


There is nothing new about that crap.
Why 1 billion Muslims should have anything to fear from 14 million Jews has always puzzeled me so re: #15 Charles

The title itself is openly antisemitic: "For Palestinians, Every Day Is Kristallnacht."

Disgusting.

I agree but what else is new? 14 million Jews scaring the hell out of the world. Beats me why.

32 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:07:18am

re: #23 Slap

Perhaps I'm being dangerously LGF-y here...

...but I find these MM "accidents" and sudden removals of the "accidents" to be disingenuous behavior.

I think it's a ham-handed attempt to keep the ideas she clearly loves out there while maintaining what she perceives to be a nice deniability zone. I believe that none of these postings are accidental in any sense.

If that makes me a narrow-minded old coot who automatically thinks unkindly of drooling lunatics with audiences, well, so be it.


Tell you what I liked Michelle Malkin. No longer.

33 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:08:02am

re: #31 Blueheron

I agree but what else is new? 14 million Jews scaring the hell out of the world. Beats me why.

Because the Jooooos control everything! The banks, the media! Didn't you ever hear of the Rothschilds?

/Paul Craig Roberts

34 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:08:05am

re: #31 Blueheron

Because they have the United States, Russia, most of Europe, etc. in their hip pocket, and all the money in the world in their back pocket.

////

35 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:08:28am

re: #29 SteveC

The real Malkin is in league with the religious far-right:

When You See Malkin on TV, You Can Thank James Dobson

36 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:08:41am

Oh, and the continued use of Holocaust-related terms like Krystalnacht denigrate and demean and undermine the legitimate history of those events. Krystalnacht was the purposeful targeting of Jewish families and businesses and shuls throughout Germany for a widespread pogrom.

It is not even close to what Gazans have brought on themselves for trying to wage jihad against Israel. It's not even the same frakking league. It is a smear, and it demeans the history of the real Krystalnacht.

37 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:09:00am

re: #20 lawhawk

Every day, Israel fights this nonsensical slur. Every day, Israel has to fight against jihadis who urge Israel's destruction. And every day, Israel has to struggle in an existential battle all while surrounded by those who would rather see its destruction.

It's reprehensible to provide the jihadis and the Palestinians with still more propaganda that undermines Israel's security situation. Every day Israel battles a terror state on its border, even after unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza. Every day, Israel has to cope with Palestinian terrorists who would hope to carry out mass casualty attacks or kidnap still more Israelis to secure the release of thousands of Palestinian terrorists in Israeli jails.

Ugh.

Yeah well the Jews oppress the world doncha know?///

38 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:09:15am

re: #13 freetoken

Perhaps it was just a test balloon, sent up to see what kind of reaction it would bring? Or, a way to advertise VDARE on the sly?

I for one don't believe she is at all embarrassed by VDARE... rather, she is trying to find a way to mainstream them.

Agreed. let's remember that Hot Air is now publishing RSM, and one of RSM's 'achievements' at the Washington Times was slipping positive references to VDARE into pieces there, and quoting VDARE approvingly, as documented by the SPLC back in 2005 (and other rightwing sites were, like Malkin, 'disappearing' the evidence when busted)

In its 60-year history, Winter told the Report, Human Events had never "knowingly hired a racist, never published racist articles, and never tolerated racist sympathies ... and we never will." Within hours, archives of articles by Coombs, McCain and the others had disappeared from the Human Events Web site.

But McCain still works at The Washington Times, where his articles run under headlines like "Backlash Building in White America." Under the direction of Fran Coombs and National Editor Ken Hanner, in fact, McCain puts together the paper's page-two "Culture Briefs" section.

In that section, McCain has used excerpts from racist venues including American Renaissance magazine and the VDARE Web site. (For her part, Coombs has written articles for VDARE and once wrote to American Renaissance with this: "Whites do not like crowded societies, and Americans would not have to live in crowds if our government kept out Third-World invaders.")


[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

I think it's pretty clear that there is a concerted effort underway to mainstream this rhetoric -- and that explains Malkin's total failure to monitor her comments as well.

39 freetoken  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:09:16am

re: #23 Slap

The idea is to take a temperature.

This is what a politician might do, to test out how public to make her support for an idea or bill. Have an underling speak to a reporter, get a story going somewhere, study the reaction. Deniability is important, but so is stirring the waters.

Trial balloons are not limited to politicians. They are a well used tool by companies (in figuring out how and where to advertise).

Whether or not MM believes in any of the writings of PCR is irrelevant to her. Her goal is to pimp her blogs, bring in more readers, make more money. If running articles by VDARE or PCR brings more hits to her blogs, then that is a good thing as far as running a blog business is concerned.

40 Abu Kuffar  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:09:17am

Also there Dan Riehl of the Riehl World view, who had an evil rant about that census worker, whom he thought to be pedophile

41 SteveC  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:09:40am

re: #35 Sharmuta

The real Malkin is in league with the religious far-right:

When You See Malkin on TV, You Can Thank James Dobson

*sigh* If it's not one thing, it's another!

42 S'latch  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:09:51am

I wonder if she keeps it there? She is on notice.

43 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:10:28am

re: #40 Abu Kuffar

Also there Dan Riehl of the Riehl World view, who had an evil rant about that census worker, whom he thought to be pedophile

I noticed that too. Her entire Buzzworthy section is a pile of reeking hate.

44 borgcube  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:10:48am

Never heard of vdare until now. Just went to the site and it gave me a headache, and that was from just trying to navigate around it for few minutes.

45 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:11:07am

re: #36 lawhawk

Oh, and the continued use of Holocaust-related terms like Krystalnacht denigrate and demean and undermine the legitimate history of those events. Krystalnacht was the purposeful targeting of Jewish families and businesses and shuls throughout Germany for a widespread pogrom.

It is not even close to what Gazans have brought on themselves for trying to wage jihad against Israel. It's not even the same frakking league. It is a smear, and it demeans the history of the real Krystalnacht.

That's the idea. Give priority to their issues with the comparisons and then pretend that the real Holocaust never took place. Its called two things:

1. Doublethink (see 1984)
2. Bullshit

Gotta go. BBT

46 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:11:39am

re: #24 Sharmuta

Malkin writes for Vdare- why would she think it's a mistake to be associated with them if she allows them to publish her work?


I didn't know that. Boy am I getting my eyes opened.

47 freetoken  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:12:43am

re: #44 borgcube

It's nothing new. The ethnic/race supremacists, the xenophobes, they've been part of the American landscape since long before our time. Only now, through the power of the internet, everybody gets to read their rantings.

48 SteveC  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:13:02am

re: #46 Blueheron

I didn't know that. Boy am I getting my eyes opened.

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you wonder if half the world has gone plumb fool crazy!

49 vxbush  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:13:31am

re: #48 SteveC

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you wonder if half the world has gone plumb fool crazy!

Bingo.

50 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:13:32am

Allahpundit sez......

I think I’ve mentioned this before but it’s an opportunity to remind you again: Anytime you see something amiss on the site, whether it’s a busted link or an offensive comment or a mis-sized thumbnail, you must e-mail us at tips -at- hotair.com to let us know.

Yet he leaves all the racist comments and calls to violence posted, I wonder what they consider an offensive comment over there.

51 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:13:35am

Can we just start officially calling them the reich-wing blogosphere now? Especially as they have little to do with what sane people regard as the right?

52 Slap  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:14:21am

re: #39 freetoken

Did you just copy the dictionary definition of "cynical opportunist"? /

53 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:14:28am

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

Too little, too late. She was stupid to link to anything from VDARE or give them any platform at all. It's a racist hate site and should be shunned.

If no one already mentioned it, she has dozens of articles on VDARE. Maybe 50 or more all told.

54 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:14:36am

re: #33 Dark_Falcon

Because the Jooos control everything! The banks, the media! Didn't you ever hear of the Rothschilds?

/Paul Craig Roberts


I have been missing the world domination meetings lately;( /

55 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:14:43am

re: #50 Killgore Trout

Allahpundit sez...

Yet he leaves all the racist comments and calls to violence posted, I wonder what they consider an offensive comment over there.

A plea for civility?

56 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:15:37am

re: #50 Killgore Trout

Then again, he could be overwhelmed with the sheer volume of hate - and/or a refusal by many there to email 'em about all the hate that they're seeing. I have no idea how they monitor their site, but it isn't anywhere near like what Charles does here.

57 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:15:41am

re: #50 Killgore Trout

I wonder what they consider an offensive comment over there.

I believe you are the only one to ever post anything offensive at hot air. ///

58 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:15:50am

re: #50 Killgore Trout

Allahpundit sez...

I think I’ve mentioned this before but it’s an opportunity to remind you again: Anytime you see something amiss on the site, whether it’s a busted link or an offensive comment or a mis-sized thumbnail, you must e-mail us at tips -at- hotair.com to let us know.

Yet he leaves all the racist comments and calls to violence posted, I wonder what they consider an offensive comment over there.

That must be why he left all those comments posted calling for Ben Nelson to be lynched -- I posted them here at LGF instead of emailing him at tips-at-hotair.com.

59 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:16:18am

re: #34 oaktree

Because they have the United States, Russia, most of Europe, etc. in their hip pocket, and all the money in the world in their back pocket.

///


So THAT'S why my back aches? //

60 freetoken  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:16:57am

re: #52 Slap

Heh... Malkin has spent years cultivating a following and developing a fan base, crafted out of a particular segment of the American populace. One might even believe she's employed some sophisticated marketing companies to help her, or perhaps she's a natural at it.

61 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:17:46am

The articles listed in the link Charles posted in #25 go from Nov. 8, 2002 to Dec. 12, 2009. Hundreds of articles, 93 from 2009 alone. This is nothing new, nothing old, just part of who she is. No sign from her that she sees anything wrong with the sewer at VDARE.

62 Slap  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:18:03am

re: #60 freetoken

It'd be disheartening to find that this is learned behavior. It seems so natural and effortless on her part./

63 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:18:49am

Oh please, VDARE has been publishing her stuff for years. She's ignorant about it? A savy blogger like Malkin? I mean she may be a racist, but she's not stupid.

No one, but no one should be surprised this woman is a racist.

64 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:19:15am

re: #56 lawhawk

Then again, he could be overwhelmed with the sheer volume of hate - and/or a refusal by many there to email 'em about all the hate that they're seeing. I have no idea how they monitor their site, but it isn't anywhere near like what Charles does here.

It looks like they're doing it just by email tips but even when they do become aware of racist comments or death threats they don't delete them. I don't think Ed or AP are really motivated to clean up the site, they're just employees.

65 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:19:18am

re: #53 marjoriemoon

If no one already mentioned it, she has dozens of articles on VDARE. Maybe 50 or more all told.

Perhaps someone who cares more than I do could check, but a (very) quick glance showed links to a bunch of her regular columns produced for her own site. I didn't see anything authored specifically for VDARE. I could easily be wrong - I've got better things to do with my time than wallow in that cesspit - but it wouldn't be a bad idea to be sure she's writing specifically for them before accusing her of it.

Honestly, I'd be happy if someone found that she was contributing directly to their site. It removes any excuse that VDARE is simply linking to her material without consent.

66 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:20:03am

re: #48 SteveC

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you wonder if half the world has gone plumb fool crazy!


Well it seems to me it is more than half the world. :(

67 Mark Pennington  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:20:55am

re: #60 freetoken

Heh... Malkin has spent years cultivating a following and developing a fan base, crafted out of a particular segment of the American populace. One might even believe she's employed some sophisticated marketing companies to help her, or perhaps she's a natural at it.

Malkin is the kind of vile, brutal, fascist who thrives by sucking off the adulation of hate-cheerleaders. It’s a self-validating circle of evil.

68 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:21:01am

re: #63 marjoriemoon

Oh please, VDARE has been publishing her stuff for years. She's ignorant about it? A savy blogger like Malkin? I mean she may be a racist, but she's not stupid.

No one, but no one should be surprised this woman is a racist.

It's an excuse I doubt she'd hesitate using if she was ever called on it.

69 SteveC  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:21:56am

re: #48 SteveC

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you wonder if half the world has gone plumb fool crazy!

re: #66 Blueheron

Well it seems to me it is more than half the world. :(

This condition is called "Overthruth" and is curable only by ingesting massive amounts of distilled spirits.

70 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:21:56am

Also still posted at Hot Air: a comment accusing me of being a pedophile. And this isn't the first one.

[Link: hotair.com...]

71 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:21:57am

re: #57 Sharmuta

Their policy about racist comments that I inspired didn't last very long.

72 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:22:29am

re: #67 beekiller

Malkin is the kind of vile, brutal, fascist who thrives by sucking off the adulation of hate-cheerleaders. It’s a self-validating circle of evil.

All she does is insult and mock everything and everyone she disagrees with. She's like a female Mark Levin.

73 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:22:33am

re: #64 Killgore Trout

It looks like they're doing it just by email tips but even when they do become aware of racist comments or death threats they don't delete them. I don't think Ed or AP are really motivated to clean up the site, they're just employees.

They might not have permission from the boss lady, but they also had a very angry community when they couldn't call the First Lady a wookie anymore. They were being defiant. I think Ed and AP are cowards- afraid of their boss and afraid of the mob they're paid to encourage.

74 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:22:52am

Malkin has frequently praised white nationalist Peter Brimelow, founder of VDARE, at her site:

[Link: www.google.com...]

75 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:23:00am

re: #71 Killgore Trout

Their policy about racist comments that I inspired didn't last very long.

Exactly.

76 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:23:46am

re: #65 SixDegrees

Perhaps someone who cares more than I do could check, but a (very) quick glance showed links to a bunch of her regular columns produced for her own site. I didn't see anything authored specifically for VDARE. I could easily be wrong - I've got better things to do with my time than wallow in that cesspit - but it wouldn't be a bad idea to be sure she's writing specifically for them before accusing her of it.

Honestly, I'd be happy if someone found that she was contributing directly to their site. It removes any excuse that VDARE is simply linking to her material without consent.

When a Nazi site loves your material enough to link it, we're not talking a couple or handful of articles. I said 50, but it's more like 100 or more, then you should seriously be rethinking your position on a number of things.

If not, well what can I tell ya.

77 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:24:03am

re: #69 SteveC

This condition is called "Overthruth" and is curable only by ingesting massive amounts of distilled spirits.


I'll drink to that! :))

78 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:25:03am

re: #68 SixDegrees

It's an excuse I doubt she'd hesitate using if she was ever called on it.

And one only needs to read her book to know what kind of person she is.

You can't just diss one group of people. You can't just hate Blacks. It's all encompassing. Maybe you like Jews a bit better than Blacks or Asians a bit better than Jews, but it's all the same bucket of filth in my book.

79 Slap  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:25:39am

re: #67 beekiller

Malkin is the kind of vile, brutal, fascist who thrives by sucking off the adulation of hate-cheerleaders. It’s a self-validating circle of evil.

Nicely done. Upding for "vile, brutal fascist", if nothing else. Really rolls off the tongue!

80 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:26:11am

re: #65 SixDegrees

Perhaps someone who cares more than I do could check, but a (very) quick glance showed links to a bunch of her regular columns produced for her own site. I didn't see anything authored specifically for VDARE. I could easily be wrong - I've got better things to do with my time than wallow in that cesspit - but it wouldn't be a bad idea to be sure she's writing specifically for them before accusing her of it.

Peter Brimelow, the racist creep who founded VDARE, is a close friend of Malkin.

[Link: www.google.com...]

81 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:26:20am

re: #70 Charles

Also still posted at Hot Air: a comment accusing me of being a pedophile. And this isn't the first one.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Oh aren't they just precious? I bet it took that poster all day to produce that gem.////

82 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:26:51am

re: #67 beekiller

Malkin is the kind of vile, brutal, fascist who thrives by sucking off the adulation of hate-cheerleaders. It’s a self-validating circle-jerk of evil.

Edited for flava.

83 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:27:55am

More insanity from the religious right:

GOP's New Prayer Guru Says Gays Possessed By Demons

84 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:28:40am

Michelle Malkin's White Supremacist Ties

85 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:28:47am

re: #76 marjoriemoon

When a Nazi site loves your material enough to link it, we're not talking a couple or handful of articles. I said 50, but it's more like 100 or more, then you should seriously be rethinking your position on a number of things.

If not, well what can I tell ya.

They seem to link to every headliner she publishes, much like TownHall does.

I agree that the cover of ignorance doesn't wash. I'm just sayin' she isn't the sort who takes responsibility, but likes to actively encourage other's bad behavior while being able to deny responsibility.

When her readers savaged a high school's staff and school district members over a teacher who hadn't worked there for years, Malkin simply ignored the overreach and let it continue for several days, although she stopped her daily flogging of the story that precipitated it when it started becoming apparent that her shit-flinging monkeys had fucked up, badly.

86 Abu Kuffar  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:28:49am

re: #81 Blueheron

I bet that counts as a full-time job for them

87 jayzee  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:29:52am

Genocide?!?!?! How can you have genocide and a positive growth rate?

I mean, yes it is anti semitic and yes it is offensive, but the whole genocide canard-I can't even begin to understand how someone can believe such a verifiable lie.

88 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:30:40am

re: #87 jayzee

Genocide?!?!?! How can you have genocide and a positive growth rate?

I mean, yes it is anti semitic and yes it is offensive, but the whole genocide canard-I can't even begin to understand how someone can believe such a verifiable lie.

EPIC FAIL genocide.

89 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:30:41am
Malkin's ties to the site are legion: it regularly prints her column, while she employs one of its writers, Juan Mann, as the principal writer of her "Immigration Blog" and lists the site on her blogroll. And it's not as if Malkin isn't well aware of the criticism, both of the site and her ties to it -- in a post on her blog in September 2004, she noted that "my friend Peter Brimelow [the founder of VDARE] observes that some people apparently think linking to VDARE is tantamount to a hate crime."

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

90 duketheinfidel  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:30:58am

oh the ugliness of it all!

91 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:31:01am

re: #80 Charles

Peter Brimelow, the racist creep who founded VDARE, is a close friend of Malkin.

[Link: www.google.com...]

Yeah, I saw that. It just seems out of character for Malkin to expose herself to potential criticism by explicitly submitting articles to that site. Maybe she has, and she's dumber than she's let on - it wouldn't exactly come as a surprise. But she normally positions herself so she can easily toss her unpleasant connections under the bus.

92 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:31:18am

re: #84 Sharmuta

Michelle Malkin's White Supremacist Ties

HAA!! I love it:

Malkin's ties to the site are legion: it regularly prints her column, while she employs one of its writers, Juan Mann, as the principal writer of her "Immigration Blog" and lists the site on her blogroll. And it's not as if Malkin isn't well aware of the criticism, both of the site and her ties to it -- in a post on her blog in September 2004, she noted that "my friend Peter Brimelow [the founder of VDARE] observes that some people apparently think linking to VDARE is tantamount to a hate crime."

93 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:32:07am

Gotta run. Gotta pick up goodies for tomorrow's Christmas party at work.

94 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:33:05am

re: #92 marjoriemoon

Actually- my new favorite bit of that article is about O'Reilly:

"If this McGovern guy had ties to the Ku Klux Klan or the John Birch society," O'Reilly said, "don't you think that would have been in the headline? ... If this guy had been a right-wing nut instead of a left-wing nut, number one, he never would have got on television, and number two, they would have slaughtered him."

Now no one even blinks at the JSB. They're going to CPAC!

95 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:34:40am

re: #87 jayzee

You're entirely right; it distorts the meaning of the word in a terrible way, and a nonsensical way.

Do the Palestinians who die in refugee camps in the Arab nations surrounding Israel and Palestine count as victims of genocide too? Lots of those camps have shitty sanitary conditions and lousy medical care, not to mention criminal gangs running them, because the Arab states don't actually give a shit about Palestinians. By those standards, Syria, Egypt, and Jordan are all complicit in that same genocide.

In fact, I'd bet-- though this is out of my posterior-- that you find higher growth rates in Palestine than you do in the various refugee camps.

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:35:12am

re: #46 Blueheron

I didn't know that. Boy am I getting my eyes opened.

LGF will do that for ya! One of the reasons I stick around here, besides the charming company.

97 Baier  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:35:43am

After aligning themselves with hate groups it was only a matter of time before the "anti-jihadists" started to eat their own tails. You can only obfuscate facts so long before the truth rears it's ugly head and covers you in the chunky vomit of the shit you've been feeding it.

98 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:36:05am

Damn! Nice catch Thanos. I thinks it's malignant with Michelle, but I'm still holding out hope she comes back from the Bad Place....

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:36:31am

re: #51 iceweasel

Can we just start officially calling them the reich-wing blogosphere now? Especially as they have little to do with what sane people regard as the right?

I dunno. I was called a reich-winger on my own blog for suggesting that putting anti-Catholic graffiti up on Most Holy Redeemer Church was a BAD thing to do. I'm sort of into keeping the title for myself.

100 jayzee  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:36:43am

re: #83 Obdicut

More insanity from the religious right:

GOP's New Prayer Guru Says Gays Possessed By Demons

Gay spirits none the less. No wonder Halloween is such a big event in parts of the gay community. /

Why would anyone go near these religious right assholes?

101 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:37:02am

re: #85 SixDegrees

They seem to link to every headliner she publishes, much like TownHall does.

I agree that the cover of ignorance doesn't wash. I'm just sayin' she isn't the sort who takes responsibility, but likes to actively encourage other's bad behavior while being able to deny responsibility.

When her readers savaged a high school's staff and school district members over a teacher who hadn't worked there for years, Malkin simply ignored the overreach and let it continue for several days, although she stopped her daily flogging of the story that precipitated it when it started becoming apparent that her shit-flinging monkeys had fucked up, badly.

I could care less if she takes responsibility. No one wants to be outed as a racist so she can deny, ignore, whatever until the cows come home. It doesn't change reality.

There's a video I saw of some guy who found Malkin out at a gathering of some sort, maybe an anti-war rally? I don't recall, but he followed her around and at the top of his voice screamed, "RACIST" at her. I mean this was all very public. When I first saw it, I thought how rude and horrible for him to do that. It was after her book was published 2004 or 2005 maybe? "RACIST HERE!!" (pointing), "LOOK AT THE RACIST! MALKIN'S A RACIST!" He carried on so, she had to leave. He never touched her, just screamed after her.

I think that's when I started to look at her more closely. That man was NOT a nut.

102 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:38:01am

re: #87 jayzee

Genocide?!?!?! How can you have genocide and a positive growth rate?

I mean, yes it is anti semitic and yes it is offensive, but the whole genocide canard-I can't even begin to understand how someone can believe such a verifiable lie.

It's not about the genocide per se, but the denigration of the term genocide, Holocaust, and their use to refer back to the systematic and total Nazi persecution of Jews throughout Europe towards the final goal of eliminating the Jewish presence there. By demeaning the meaning, it undermines the legitimacy of the term, especially since the Holocaust and its effects are one of the reasons behind Israel's establishment in 1948 - to provide a national home for Jews that had no place else to go in the world because of persecution and a refusal by other nations to accept Jewish refugees.

103 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:38:16am

re: #98 BigPapa

When was she ever not in the bad place?

re: #100 jayzee

Gay spirits none the less. No wonder Halloween is such a big event in parts of the gay community. /

Why would anyone go near these religious right assholes?

I don't know. I do think however, that if a young man moves to the Castro district to 'cast out gay demons', one possible interpretation is that he's just gay himself and putting one over on his father, which would make me smile.

104 suchislife  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:38:31am

re: #97 Baier

You can only obfuscate facts so long before the truth rears it's ugly head and covers you in the chunky vomit of the shit you've been feeding it.

lol

105 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:39:00am

re: #91 SixDegrees

Yeah, I saw that. It just seems out of character for Malkin to expose herself to potential criticism by explicitly submitting articles to that site. Maybe she has, and she's dumber than she's let on - it wouldn't exactly come as a surprise. But she normally positions herself so she can easily toss her unpleasant connections under the bus.

I'm sorry you're trying to defend her, but she is what she is. It's not out of character for her either and she's no dumby.

106 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:39:25am

re: #51 iceweasel

Can we just start officially calling them the reich-wing blogosphere now? Especially as they have little to do with what sane people regard as the right?

Please avoid the Holocaust/Nazi comparisons. What you do is trivialize the real Holocaust.

107 suchislife  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:40:05am

re: #103 Obdicut

which would make me smile.

me too.

108 jayzee  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:41:10am

re: #95 Obdicut

You're entirely right; it distorts the meaning of the word in a terrible way, and a nonsensical way.

Do the Palestinians who die in refugee camps in the Arab nations surrounding Israel and Palestine count as victims of genocide too? Lots of those camps have shitty sanitary conditions and lousy medical care, not to mention criminal gangs running them, because the Arab states don't actually give a shit about Palestinians. By those standards, Syria, Egypt, and Jordan are all complicit in that same genocide.

In fact, I'd bet-- though this is out of my posterior-- that you find higher growth rates in Palestine than you do in the various refugee camps.

Maybe, but they do live longer than they do in Jordan and Lebanon. And that's including suicide bombers, martyred terrorists etc.

109 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:41:25am

re: #15 Charles

The title itself is openly antisemitic: "For Palestinians, Every Day Is Kristallnacht."

Disgusting.

With all due respect, Charles, it's anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist. It's not anti-Semitic, unless the conventional wisdom here is that Israel and the Jewish faith are one and indivisible.

I'm new here, and I'm not trying to be offensive or controversial. But I believe the distinction is really important. I believe - with all my heart - that Israel has a right to exist and a right to protect itself. But I also believe that we - every living human who enjoys any measure of freedom and self-determination at all - have an obligation to provide those same things for the Arabs who were displaced by the founding of Israel. Yes, it's a long, complex, almost insoluble situation; that does not relieve Humanity of the obligation to try. Branding any and all opposition to Israel's political and social policies as "anti-Semitic" is not helpful; it enflames an already burning pyre of human stupidity. (And having followed links here to Pammy Atlas the Augmented Breasts of Zion, so I have seen tat there's already way more than enough of that on the Internet now...)

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:42:02am

re: #66 Blueheron

Well it seems to me it is more than half the world. :(

Relax. There are millions of people in India alone who have never even heard of Michelle Malkin, and they're just as happy that way.

/

111 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:42:02am

re: #102 lawhawk
Damn...

112 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:42:08am

re: #102 lawhawk

re: #102 lawhawk

It's not about the genocide per se, but the denigration of the term genocide, Holocaust, and their use to refer back to the systematic and total Nazi persecution of Jews throughout Europe towards the final goal of eliminating the Jewish presence there.


They didn't wanted to end it just there, but everywhere.

And this "Israel's Reichskristallnacht"-Bullshit is the same softcore-denial of the Holocaust that people like my friend Oslogin are promoting as well, when they claim that "Muslims are the Jews of today".

113 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:42:09am

re: #91 SixDegrees

Yeah, I saw that. It just seems out of character for Malkin to expose herself to potential criticism by explicitly submitting articles to that site. Maybe she has, and she's dumber than she's let on - it wouldn't exactly come as a surprise. But she normally positions herself so she can easily toss her unpleasant connections under the bus.

Is there anybody out there whose opinion she would care about who finds this a topic for criticism?

114 McSpiff  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:42:31am

re: #102 lawhawk

It's not about the genocide per se, but the denigration of the term genocide, Holocaust, and their use to refer back to the systematic and total Nazi persecution of Jews throughout Europe towards the final goal of eliminating the Jewish presence there. By demeaning the meaning, it undermines the legitimacy of the term, especially since the Holocaust and its effects are one of the reasons behind Israel's establishment in 1948 - to provide a national home for Jews that had no place else to go in the world because of persecution and a refusal by other nations to accept Jewish refugees.

I also dislike people using the term Holocaust and genocide interchangeably. The Holocaust was certainly genocide but not all genocides will look like the Holocaust. It's a spectrum from mob/miltia violence like Rwanda on one end, and the total industrialization of the Holocaust at the other. Things like Bosnia fall somewhere in between. None of which of course implies in any way that the Palestinians are undergoing a genocide(of any sort) or even the threat of one.

115 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:42:42am

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

With all due respect, Charles, it's anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist. It's not anti-Semitic, unless the conventional wisdom here is that Israel and the Jewish faith are one and indivisible.

Yes, it absolutely IS antisemitic to compare the situation of the Palestinians to Kristallnacht, and accuse Israel of committing "genocide." Revoltingly so.

116 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:43:44am

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

And before you defend Paul Craig Roberts against charges that he's a blatant antisemite -- I suggest you try looking up some of his other articles.

117 jayzee  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:43:49am

re: #102 lawhawk

Agreed, but that is a nuanced argument. You have to understand good v evil etc to grasp it. You need a sense of history. But anyone who can read should be able to understand what genocide is and what it is not.

118 cliffster  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:44:07am

Hmm, I don't see that link there. Maybe someone hacked her site and put it there, and she found it and took it down. I bet they also got a bunch of emails too

119 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:44:13am

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

To liken the Israelis to Nazis is antisemitic. No question about it.

120 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:44:20am

re: #96 SanFranciscoZionist

LGF will do that for ya! One of the reasons I stick around here, besides the charming company.


I liked some of her on air commentary about conservative issues. I am wondering is how could I have been so deceived.
What do I do now when I can't trust my own judgment?
Being a conservative person and a Jew I feel so isolated.

121 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:44:23am

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

With all due respect, Charles, it's anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist. It's not anti-Semitic, unless the conventional wisdom here is that Israel and the Jewish faith are one and indivisible.

I'm new here, and I'm not trying to be offensive or controversial. But I believe the distinction is really important. I believe - with all my heart - that Israel has a right to exist and a right to protect itself. But I also believe that we - every living human who enjoys any measure of freedom and self-determination at all - have an obligation to provide those same things for the Arabs who were displaced by the founding of Israel. Yes, it's a long, complex, almost insoluble situation; that does not relieve Humanity of the obligation to try. Branding any and all opposition to Israel's political and social policies as "anti-Semitic" is not helpful; it enflames an already burning pyre of human stupidity. (And having followed links here to Pammy Atlas the Augmented Breasts of Zion, so I have seen tat there's already way more than enough of that on the Internet now...)

Yea, keep telling yourself that.

122 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:44:46am

re: #118 cliffster

Hmm, I don't see that link there. Maybe someone hacked her site and put it there, and she found it and took it down.

You have got to be joking.

123 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:45:45am

re: #118 cliffster

Maybe someone hacked her site and put it there, and she found it and took it down.


Get a grip. She links to VDARE once or twice a week. She writes for VDARE and the site's owner is a personal friend of hers. Don't be stupid.

124 cliffster  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:46:38am

re: #122 Charles

mmm, yes

125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:46:48am

re: #118 cliffster

Cliff? I really want to like Michelle. I just can't anymore. She's not who I thought she was.

126 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:46:52am

re: #116 Charles

I have no intention of trying to defend him - I read that article, and it's a piece of shit. I was only trying to guage the tenor of LGF on this general topic, that's all.

127 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:47:02am

re: #83 Obdicut

More insanity from the religious right:

GOP's New Prayer Guru Says Gays Possessed By Demons

Oh, great. He's sending his kid to San Francisco.

Note to all the crazy people: I am quite sure there are demons to cast out wherever the hell has the misfortune to have you live there. Charity begins at home. Could you please take this into advisement? THANKS.

PS--We have some lovely churches already in the Castro. Just a note...

128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:47:22am

re: #124 cliffster

Whew.

SARC TAG CLIFF!

129 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:47:43am

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

Since you insist that there's a substantial difference between anti-zionism and anti-semitism: Do you know who was one of the first anti-zionists, writing in his most famous book that he is a fierce opponent of a Jewish state, since this would be the headquarter of organized crime?

130 jayzee  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:47:44am

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

With all due respect, Charles, it's anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist. It's not anti-Semitic, unless the conventional wisdom here is that Israel and the Jewish faith are one and indivisible.

I'm new here, and I'm not trying to be offensive or controversial. But I believe the distinction is really important. I believe - with all my heart - that Israel has a right to exist and a right to protect itself. But I also believe that we - every living human who enjoys any measure of freedom and self-determination at all - have an obligation to provide those same things for the Arabs who were displaced by the founding of Israel. Yes, it's a long, complex, almost insoluble situation; that does not relieve Humanity of the obligation to try. Branding any and all opposition to Israel's political and social policies as "anti-Semitic" is not helpful; it enflames an already burning pyre of human stupidity. (And having followed links here to Pammy Atlas the Augmented Breasts of Zion, so I have seen tat there's already way more than enough of that on the Internet now...)

BULLSHIT. The reference to Krystallnacht is WITHOUT argument anti-semitic. This was an act against the Jews (not Israelis) of Germany. It uses an atrocity against the Jews and debases the real victims of that act while minimizing the evil of those that perpetrated that act.

131 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:47:52am

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

Branding any and all opposition to Israel's political and social policies as "anti-Semitic" is not helpful; it enflames an already burning pyre of human stupidity.

This comment is way off base. I'm NOT branding "any and all opposition to Israel's policies" as antisemitic. I'm calling this article antisemitic because IT IS.

132 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:48:11am

Grrr... Pet peeve.

Nothing can be compared to the Holocaust, or to Kristallnacht, or Hitler. Ever. This is because anything that is that big, that enormous, that horrible, that (excuse the word) epic will have it's own place in history.

Anything smaller does not compare. We don't need to compare Mugabe to Hitler. He's Mugabe, and his name means "Horrible, nasty, monstrous murderer" all by itself.

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:48:14am

re: #88 Alouette

EPIC FAIL genocide.

Fuckin' Jews can't even do a genocide like normal people.

///

134 cliffster  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:48:21am

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Whew.

SARC TAG CLIFF!

It was there I swear, must be an LGF bug //

135 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:48:30am

re: #120 Blueheron

What do I do now when I can't trust my own judgment?
Being a conservative person and a Jew I feel so isolated.


It's a tough position to be in. There's a very real reason why roughly 80% of Jews vote Dem. Buchanan, Coulter and Malkin are unfortunately mainstream on the right.

136 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:49:36am

re: #110 SanFranciscoZionist

Relax. There are millions of people in India alone who have never even heard of Michelle Malkin, and they're just as happy that way.

/


You are right about that and the Hindus really like Jews :))

137 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:49:43am

re: #132 EmmmieG

EmmmieG? Aren't you the one who used to have the avatar of your mother holding you as a child? That one I mentioned.

Special request (if it was you...) please?

I need some calming, and I love that shot.

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:49:50am

re: #100 jayzee

Gay spirits none the less. No wonder Halloween is such a big event in parts of the gay community. /

Why would anyone go near these religious right assholes?

A group of them got 'escorted' out of the Castro last year, with police escort.

Malkin, IIRC, was terribly upset.

139 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:50:17am
Arabs who were displaced by the founding of Israel.

What nonsense:

PALESTINE FACTS

How did the Zionists acquire land in Palestine?
Who started the War of Independence?

140 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:50:57am

re: #114 McSpiff

There is indeed a spectrum of human rights crimes (under international law) which ranges from ethnic cleansing up to genocide (which when referred to as such, is supposed to invoke the Genocide Conventions). The Holocaust was a particular kind of genocide, which specifically targeted Jews for death on an industrial scale. Some historians call it democide, but however you call it - it's mass murder on an incomprehensible scale.

141 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:51:08am

re: #137 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

EmmmieG? Aren't you the one who used to have the avatar of your mother holding you as a child? That one I mentioned.

Special request (if it was you...) please?

I need some calming, and I love that shot.

It was me, and as soon as I can get on that computer (we have two), I will resurrect it. If it makes you feel any better, the turkeys in my avatar right now are her family tradition that we kids have carried on. (She hasn't passed on, we just have our own families now.)

142 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:52:14am

re: #118 cliffster

Those links rotate regularly, just as the HA links and even LGF top links will rotate out. Just because it isn't there now doesn't mean that the link wasn't there before (and it most certainly was captured for posterity by Charles' screen cap).

143 cliffster  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:52:34am

It is gone, though, less than an hour after the LGF post. Good grief.

144 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:52:48am

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

Branding any and all opposition to Israel's political and social policies as "anti-Semitic" is not helpful


Israel is a pluralistic society, it has many ooppositional NGOs, a very critical media and an enlightened people.
Why do you think that Israel needs the help of OneMonkeysUncle in its political discourse?

145 cliffster  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:53:06am

re: #142 lawhawk

Those links rotate regularly, just as the HA links and even LGF top links will rotate out. Just because it isn't there now doesn't mean that the link wasn't there before (and it most certainly was captured for posterity by Charles' screen cap).

Ah, I didn't realize that. I'm not a big reader of the malkin site.

146 jayzee  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:53:25am

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

A group of them got 'escorted' out of the Castro last year, with police escort.

Malkin, IIRC, was terribly upset.

I am sure a few got escorts indeed.

147 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:53:28am

re: #120 Blueheron

I liked some of her on air commentary about conservative issues. I am wondering is how could I have been so deceived.
What do I do now when I can't trust my own judgment?
Being a conservative person and a Jew I feel so isolated.

I know the feeling, and I'm not even conservative.

This worries me. The far left has been anti-Semitic from day one, but the hard right was doing a good patter of being pro-Israel, even if their attitude toward Jews at home was sometimes not so effing inclusive. Now the facade is cracking, and I fear that it's cracking at a time when these folks are highly active, and working hard to whip up populist support.

This ain't good.

148 McSpiff  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:53:38am

re: #140 lawhawk

There is indeed a spectrum of human rights crimes (under international law) which ranges from ethnic cleansing up to genocide (which when referred to as such, is supposed to invoke the Genocide Conventions). The Holocaust was a particular kind of genocide, which specifically targeted Jews for death on an industrial scale. Some historians call it democide, but however you call it - it's mass murder on an incomprehensible scale.

Fully agreed. It just worries me that people always seem to think the next act of genocide will always resemble the last one. I know we'll never see another Holocaust, but I wonder what tensions are currently brewing that could explode into another act of genocide.

149 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:53:45am

re: #125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Cliff? I really want to like Michelle. I just can't anymore. She's not who I thought she was.

Bingo! No more.

150 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:53:58am

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

With all due respect, Charles, it's anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist. It's not anti-Semitic, unless the conventional wisdom here is that Israel and the Jewish faith are one and indivisible.

I'm new here, and I'm not trying to be offensive or controversial. But I believe the distinction is really important. I believe - with all my heart - that Israel has a right to exist and a right to protect itself. But I also believe that we - every living human who enjoys any measure of freedom and self-determination at all - have an obligation to provide those same things for the Arabs who were displaced by the founding of Israel. Yes, it's a long, complex, almost insoluble situation; that does not relieve Humanity of the obligation to try. Branding any and all opposition to Israel's political and social policies as "anti-Semitic" is not helpful; it enflames an already burning pyre of human stupidity. (And having followed links here to Pammy Atlas the Augmented Breasts of Zion, so I have seen tat there's already way more than enough of that on the Internet now...)

It's anti-Israel, anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic. As for "humanity having the obligation to provide for the Arabs who were displaced by the founding of Israel," how many billions has the UN and the EU sunk into the UNRWA and the Palestinian Authority, which made its way into the numbered bank accounts of Arafat and other thugs? Just how far does that "humanitarian" obligation go?

Because the Palestinians could have built a Dubai on the Mediterranean with all the money that has been shoveled at them.

151 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:54:20am

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

People who think like you don't understand Zionism to begin with. Whatever political BS you've been taught to think about it which mostly comes from Arab propaganda, is not what it's about.

Zionism is the desire, hope and belief for all Jews to return to Israel, the Jewish homeland, which it has been for some 3500 years. The land of Israel isn't just a mass of dirt. We as Jews are tied to it. It is part of who we are as a people.

When God says, "Hear Oh Israel", he's not speaking to a lump of clay. Israel = the Jewish people. That's what it means.

If you're anti-Zionist, you are anti-Semitic. There is no distinction.

Now if you want to criticize Israeli policy, that's another story. It doesn't make you anti-Semitic.

152 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:54:53am

re: #131 Charles

I apologize. Obviously, I hold a different viewpoint on this than others at LGF. I didn't mean to offend.

153 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:55:28am
So imagine the irony, if you will, when one of the right wing’s iconic comic heroes, Michelle Malkin,

FTFY

154 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:55:37am

Shrieking harpy Pamela Geller calls European Jews who refuse to make alliances with fascist groups "traitors" and "cowards," and tells them to "shut up."

At American Thinker.

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

155 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:57:06am

re: #154 Charles

The name of that site screams out for a pair of scare quotes around the second word. It's deafening.

156 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:57:24am

re: #151 marjoriemoon

My complaint with what you've said is that you're defining Jews only in terms of Judaism, which leaves secular Jews like me out in the cold.

157 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:57:34am

re: #148 McSpiff

I hope that we'll never see another genocide, but I'm not so hopeful on the human condition that we wont see another situation such as the Nazi Holocaust. After all, we have allowed regimes to slaughter their populations on an industrial scale - the gulag archipelago of North Korea where labor camps have killed millions. The Chinese slaughtered millions of their fellow countrymen over the span of decades, as did the Soviets.

158 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:57:40am

OT... my neighbors just bribed the snowplow guy with a coke not to plow in their driveway.

CURSE THEM!

Flippin' genius.

159 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:57:42am

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

The Arabs were given the opportunity to stay in Israel. The land was partitioned into two states. All of this could have been avoided if they would have taken the UN partition.

You know that, right? They left, they came back to make war on the Jews, they got billions of billions of $ that Arafat, their God on Earth, stole from them and it's the Jews fault they are refugees? The richest refugees on the planet.

Feh.

160 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:58:15am

re: #135 Killgore Trout

It's a tough position to be in. There's a very real reason why roughly 80% of Jews vote Dem. Buchanan, Coulter and Malkin are unfortunately mainstream on the right.

Perhaps the Dems could scare up a few Scoop Jacksons ? :))

161 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:58:36am

FBV? Check my avatar now.

162 McSpiff  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:58:44am

re: #151 marjoriemoon

People who think like you don't understand Zionism to begin with. Whatever political BS you've been taught to think about it which mostly comes from Arab propaganda, is not what it's about.

Zionism is the desire, hope and belief for all Jews to return to Israel, the Jewish homeland, which it has been for some 3500 years. The land of Israel isn't just a mass of dirt. We as Jews are tied to it. It is part of who we are as a people.

When God says, "Hear Oh Israel", he's not speaking to a lump of clay. Israel = the Jewish people. That's what it means.

If you're anti-Zionist, you are anti-Semitic. There is no distinction.

Now if you want to criticize Israeli policy, that's another story. It doesn't make you anti-Semitic.

While I am an admit supporter of Israel, I am because she's a strong ally in a region otherwise lacking them. I do not support Israel because a God I do not believe in says they are entitled to it. Otherwise fully agree with your post.

163 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:59:08am

re: #156 Obdicut

My complaint with what you've said is that you're defining Jews only in terms of Judaism, which leaves secular Jews like me out in the cold.

Hope you asked for a sweater for Christmas!

//// (TOTALLY!)

164 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:59:25am

re: #161 EmmmieG

Awww. Nice.

Thanks. :)

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:59:39am

re: #148 McSpiff

Fully agreed. It just worries me that people always seem to think the next act of genocide will always resemble the last one. I know we'll never see another Holocaust, but I wonder what tensions are currently brewing that could explode into another act of genocide.

The Holocaust has been adopted by the Western world as the 'standard' of genocide. The one you teach your kids about, make movies about, etc. It involves, of course, a certain amount of whitewashing the victims, to make them seem more 'normal', and it requires comparing absolutely everything to it, until it becomes the fuzzy monster in the closet.

I have some issues with the way the Shoah has been taken over--specifically, the next Gentile woman who tells me that she takes the IDFs actions in Gaza so to heart because she cried her eyes out over Anne Frank in middle school is gonna get a tepid skinny latte right over the head.

//Does that count as threatening violence? It is a TEPID latte.

166 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:00:03am

re: #151 marjoriemoon

Zionism is the desire, hope and belief for all Jews to return to Israel, the Jewish homeland, which it has been for some 3500 years. The land of Israel isn't just a mass of dirt. We as Jews are tied to it. It is part of who we are as a people.

Thank you, but I'm not an idiot. I'm well aware that's how Jews use the word "Zionism." Unfortunately, the non-Jewish world - and in particular, the media - use it to mean political and military agenda of Israel the country. That's what I was reacting to, the way the word is used in common discourse.

167 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:00:17am

re: #159 marjoriemoon

Nekama is always helpful here.

168 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:00:51am

re: #139 Sharmuta

What nonsense:

PALESTINE FACTS

How did the Zionists acquire land in Palestine?
Who started the War of Independence?


As many Jews fled Arab lands where their ancestors had lived long before the birth of Mohammed as Palestinians fled Israel. That is a fact.

169 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:01:33am

re: #158 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

OT... my neighbors just bribed the snowplow guy with a coke not to plow in their driveway.

CURSE THEM!

Flippin' genius.

The snowplow guy is an Idjit
He prolly could have gotten at LEAST a $20 bill!

170 prairiefire  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:01:45am

re: #14 Alouette

Did everyone visit the Zionist Mall? Ahava Dead Sea products.

I will have to order something. My daughter has eczema, I think some of those Ahava items would work for her.

171 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:01:45am

re: #152 OneMonkeysUncle

I apologize. Obviously, I hold a different viewpoint on this than others at LGF. I didn't mean to offend.

I generally get railed on here for being pro-Palestinan and anti-Israel-- neither of which are strictly speaking, true-- but I found what you wrote to be eye-rollingly naive. The Palestinian problem could be solved overnight, and could have been solved at any point during history, by the actions of the Arab nations: recognizing Israel, and giving up territory to create Palestine. They have adamantly refused to do this, because Palestinians are a useful political chip for them.

The article references Kristallnacht, which was an organized and system campaign of terror against Jews throughout Germany. It included thousands of arrests in a single night.

You cannot ever say that every night is a Kristallnacht; the reason it is such a wrong thing to say is that Kristallnacht was a single night of death and terror and horror, a gross demonstration of power and mob violence. It bears no resemblance to anything going on in Palestine.

172 jayzee  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:02:28am

re: #156 Obdicut

My complaint with what you've said is that you're defining Jews only in terms of Judaism, which leaves secular Jews like me out in the cold.

Does it though? I was pretty secular for a while and it did not diminish my belief that Jews and Israel go hand in hand. Whether the shema has divine or human origins doesn't negate the fact it has been a political, social, religious part of our culture for millennia.

173 Racer X  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:03:20am

re: #158 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

OT... my neighbors just bribed the snowplow guy with a coke not to plow in their driveway.

CURSE THEM!

Flippin' genius.

What is this "snowplow" you speak of?

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:03:31am

re: #166 OneMonkeysUncle

Thank you, but I'm not an idiot. I'm well aware that's how Jews use the word "Zionism." Unfortunately, the non-Jewish world - and in particular, the media - use it to mean political and military agenda of Israel the country. That's what I was reacting to, the way the word is used in common discourse.

Fine, and if you want to discuss Israeli political and military policy here, you will find many people interested in the discussion.

However, there is only one reason to invoke Kristallnacht when talking about Palestinians in the modern day, and that reason is to discredit Jews. "Look, now they have their own country, they're just like the Nazis."

175 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:04:31am

re: #173 Racer X

What is this "snowplow" you speak of?

They'll be available in a few years only at the EXTINCT wing of the Smithsonian

176 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:04:40am

re: #156 Obdicut

My complaint with what you've said is that you're defining Jews only in terms of Judaism, which leaves secular Jews like me out in the cold.

Not at all. I'm secular and don't feel any less tied to the State and my people. Israel is for all Jews, religious or not. My cousins are not religious (lived in Israel their own lives). Their father, came from Auschwitz (he was my grandfather's nephew) via Cypress to Israel after the war. 1 of my cousins doesn't like it. She prefers the states, but the rest have raised families there.

177 Cathypop  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:05:00am

re: #173 Racer X

What is this "snowplow" you speak of?


SSSHHH! You really don't want to find out

178 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:05:21am

re: #130 jayzee

BULLSHIT. The reference to Krystallnacht is WITHOUT argument anti-semitic. This was an act against the Jews (not Israelis) of Germany. It uses an atrocity against the Jews and debases the real victims of that act while minimizing the evil of those that perpetrated that act.

Bingo. It's a standard move for antisemites to attempt to appropriate imagery of the Holocaust for themselves. That's when they're not denying the Holocaust occurred at all, that is.
Both are attempts to erase the specific horror and meaning of the Holocaust, IMO.

179 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:05:23am

re: #171 Obdicut

I don't think being pro-Israel automatically means being anti-Palestinian. I think the overwhelming opinion at LGF is the Palestinians deserve a government that will agree to live in peace with its neighbors. I think that's actually very pro-Palestinian.

180 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:05:58am

re: #171 Obdicut

The Palestinian problem could be solved overnight, and could have been solved at any point during history


There is no "Palestinian problem". There's an agressive, folkish and anti-semitic collective that will not change its resentments when it operates from a sovereign state.

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:06:09am

re: #168 Blueheron

As many Jews fled Arab lands where their ancestors had lived long before the birth of Mohammed as Palestinians fled Israel. That is a fact.

And mysteriously, the young protesters at UC Berkeley never seem to feel that Morocco or Iraq needs to give back anyone's home.

The Palestinians have been repeatedly screwed over, and that is a fact. The Arab world could have fixed this problem. The Israelis made Arabs inside their borders citizens. Jordan kept the 'outsiders' as an expellable second class.

182 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:06:23am

re: #179 Sharmuta

I don't think being pro-Israel automatically means being anti-Palestinian. I think the overwhelming opinion at LGF is the Palestinians deserve a government that will agree to live in peace with its neighbors. I think that's actually very pro-Palestinian.

I've wished for that my entire adult life

183 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:06:34am

re: #162 McSpiff

While I am an admit supporter of Israel, I am because she's a strong ally in a region otherwise lacking them. I do not support Israel because a God I do not believe in says they are entitled to it. Otherwise fully agree with your post.

I didn't mean to say that God says we belong there. Well, I personally believe that, but you don't have to to know that it's the Jewish homeland.

Moses brought the Jews there in about 1500 BCE and we've had a presence in the land ever since, whether we've ruled it or not. It's simple history.

184 jayzee  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:06:42am

re: #166 OneMonkeysUncle

Thank you, but I'm not an idiot. I'm well aware that's how Jews use the word "Zionism." Unfortunately, the non-Jewish world - and in particular, the media - use it to mean political and military agenda of Israel the country. That's what I was reacting to, the way the word is used in common discourse.

No, it is the bastardization of the language, giving false meaning to something in order to further a political agenda, which changed the meanings of Zionism, genocide, palestine etc.

185 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:07:31am

re: #182 sattv4u2

I've wished for that my entire adult life

When hamas and fatah agree to recognize Israel, we might see some progress.

186 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:07:46am

re: #172 jayzee

Yes, it really does-- especially when you reference god talking. It's possibly the cultural influence of my Sephardic background that influences this, but Jews were still Jews before the founding if Israel. A Jew in the Bronx is as much a Jew as a Jew in Jerusalem-- and both of them can toast, "Next year in Jerusalem!"

187 Racer X  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:08:21am

Do you have a Facebook account?
Want to crack yourself up silly?

Go to 'settings / language' and change the language to 'English (pirate)'.

Too much fun!

Aarrgghh!

188 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:09:20am

re: #187 Racer X

Mine has been there for months. Funny stuff.

189 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:09:50am

re: #162 McSpiff

While I am an admit supporter of Israel, I am because she's a strong ally in a region otherwise lacking them. I do not support Israel because a God I do not believe in says they are entitled to it. Otherwise fully agree with your post.

I don't believe in any god at all, but that doesn't stop me from believing that the existence of Israel, and her defence, are moral imperatives.To be perfectly honest I would feel that way regardless of whether Israel was important to US security, and regardless of whether she was an ally of the US at all.

190 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:09:57am

re: #170 prairiefire

I will have to order something. My daughter has eczema, I think some of those Ahava items would work for her.

The Dead Sea Mud products are excellent for skin problems.

191 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:10:18am

re: #176 marjoriemoon

I'm sorry, but I still think we disagree. I disagree that Israel = The Jewish People. Or at least that physical Israel. It is not our shibboleth.

192 prairiefire  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:10:34am

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

I know the feeling, and I'm not even conservative.

This worries me. The far left has been anti-Semitic from day one, but the hard right was doing a good patter of being pro-Israel, even if their attitude toward Jews at home was sometimes not so effing inclusive. Now the facade is cracking, and I fear that it's cracking at a time when these folks are highly active, and working hard to whip up populist support.

This ain't good.

Please don't worry. This shiksa would fight for you and yours! I'm hoping folks will start to calm down when (if) the economy starts to improve in the Spring. Tensions are HIGH. Folks with bad intentions are stoking the fires more than has happened in the US for many years, IMHO.

193 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:10:37am

re: #166 OneMonkeysUncle

Thank you, but I'm not an idiot. I'm well aware that's how Jews use the word "Zionism." Unfortunately, the non-Jewish world - and in particular, the media - use it to mean political and military agenda of Israel the country. That's what I was reacting to, the way the word is used in common discourse.

No, that's not true. It's Arab propaganda and it's lies. You don't have to believe me. Go to the link Sharm put up. Read your history.

You've chosen to believe propaganda against the truth? The truth will set you free.

After the Holocaust, Zionism was praised. When the world found out what Hitler did, the world was sympathetic to the Jews and wanted them to have Israel. Again in the 70s, when the Russians freed the Jews, the world rallied behind us. Arafat destroyed all of that.

194 PowerFlip  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:11:49am

I wonder if Moby is posting at Hotair now...

195 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:12:15am

re: #183 marjoriemoon

I didn't mean to say that God says we belong there. Well, I personally believe that, but you don't have to to know that it's the Jewish homeland.

Moses brought the Jews there in about 1500 BCE and we've had a presence in the land ever since, whether we've ruled it or not. It's simple history.

And to bring up Obdicut's point about secular Jews- I don't think you need to be a religious to feel the desire to see one's ancestral homeland.

196 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:13:42am

re: #194 PowerFlip

I wonder if Moby is posting at Hotair now...

Registered since: Nov 24, 2005 at 5:35 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 114
No. of links posted: 0

mmmmmkkkaayy!!

197 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:14:14am

re: #193 marjoriemoon

There is an entire sidebar on the left with Resources and other information for folks to look into Israel's history.

198 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:14:22am

re: #194 PowerFlip

I wonder if Moby is posting at Hotair now...

Trust me-- the HotAir commenters aren't mobys. I'd like to think all those commenters are people pretending things they don't believe, but they ain't.

199 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:14:55am

re: #189 iceweasel

While you could take everything I know about Israel's importance to our National Security and put it in a very small hat. I think we are infinitely more important to their security than than they are ours.

That being said, I certainly stand with them as having a right to exist, and they can't exist without our help.

That's what I think I know. And, yeah; it ain't much.

200 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:15:21am

re: #191 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but I still think we disagree. I disagree that Israel = The Jewish People. Or at least that physical Israel. It is not our shibboleth.

It doesn't mean we can't share. We CAN and we DO.

We are the stewards of that land. We have taken care of the Christian sites. What did the Arabs do? They ran the Christians out of Bethlehem and Nazareth.

You're not religious. This is more of a Kabbalistic viewpoint ("We and the land are one" quoting the movie Excalibur LOL) but we are. Too bad Ludwig aint handy.

201 jayzee  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:15:30am

re: #186 Obdicut

And Israel was Israel before the establishment of the state of Israel. And I really prefer Sephardi food to Ashkenazi Eastern European. I wish I could eat hummus on pesach.

202 Blueheron  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:16:19am

re: #166 OneMonkeysUncle

Thank you, but I'm not an idiot. I'm well aware that's how Jews use the word "Zionism." Unfortunately, the non-Jewish world - and in particular, the media - use it to mean political and military agenda of Israel the country. That's what I was reacting to, the way the word is used in common discourse.

The world has poisoned the word.

203 prairiefire  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:16:53am

re: #190 Alouette

Favorited for future reference!

204 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:18:32am

re: #199 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

While you could take everything I know about Israel's importance to our National Security and put it in a very small hat. I think we are infinitely more important to their security than than they are ours.

That being said, I certainly stand with them as having a right to exist, and they can't exist without our help.

That's what I think I know. And, yeah; it ain't much.

Hey, I don't know much either and I'll admit it! i think you're right, for whatever that's worth. :-)
ok-- out of here now. Have fun all!

205 Gus  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:18:42am

OT

Just a note. Tucker Carlson hired crypto-stalker-blogger Jim Treacher to blog at his new web site.

206 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:19:08am

re: #167 Sharmuta

Nekama is always helpful here.

Thanks! I just favorited it!

207 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:20:04am

re: #205 Gus 802

OT

Just a note. Tucker Carlson hired crypto-stalker-blogger Jim Treacher to blog at his new web site.

Someone tell Tucker his fifteen minutes of fame are up, and what he's in now is his hours of shame.

208 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:20:55am

re: #187 Racer X

LOL!
Me matey!

209 McSpiff  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:20:57am

re: #183 marjoriemoon

I didn't mean to say that God says we belong there. Well, I personally believe that, but you don't have to to know that it's the Jewish homeland.

Moses brought the Jews there in about 1500 BCE and we've had a presence in the land ever since, whether we've ruled it or not. It's simple history.

I'd agree with all of that. To me the same (mostly) secular arguments used recently to justify an independent Kosovo also apply to Israel. To be honest, anywhere other than LGF I probably wouldn't have even bothered to state my objections to the divine rationale. Too easy to get lumped in with the kooks. It's really not a big deal to me why an individual decides Israel has a right to exist. My central reasoning on the issue is that the only way the jewish people will truly be able to defend themselves is by having their own independent nation state. I think we (the rest of the west) should support Israel because they've shown themselves to be stalwart allies. If Israel politics change and they decide they dislike the US/Canada, I wouldn't support them but I'd still say they have the right to exist, in the same way I don't support Iran but I still agree that the Iranian people have the right to an independent nation. It bothers me that it seems like some people's support for the right of Israel to exist is closely tied to the politics of Israel. To me the entire issue transcends politics. Hope that all makes sense.

210 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:21:17am

re: #205 Gus 802

OT

Just a note. Tucker Carlson hired crypto-stalker-blogger Jim Treacher to blog at his new web site.

Oh you have to be kidding me. I hate that guy. Gah. (not that I was fond of Tucker either)

bleah. ok. later!

211 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:21:57am

re: #167 Sharmuta

Nekama is always helpful here.

Ooooo very good LOL

212 jayzee  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:23:55am

re: #205 Gus 802

OT

Just a note. Tucker Carlson hired crypto-stalker-blogger Jim Treacher to blog at his new web site.

He's a douche.

213 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:24:18am

re: #167 Sharmuta

As long as I have been hanging around here, that is the first time I have seen that.

214 cliffster  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:25:00am

Hmm, just went to vdare.com and bounced around for a bit, just for the hell of it. That site sucks.

215 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:25:01am

re: #193 marjoriemoon

I'm going to disagree with you - respectfully, but disagree nonetheless - because I have read the history, and I've formed different conclusions.

In the very founding document of modern Israel, it clearly states: "that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." Israel has a responsibility to the people who were living on that ground when Israel was founded. That's all I'm saying. I'm not making excuses for the PLO or canonizing Arafat or anything else; nothing excuses what's been done there, on either side. All I'm saying is that the Palestinian Arabs are there, they are humans, and they have as much right to freedom and self-determination as the Jews. That's all I'm saying.

216 reine.de.tout  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:27:44am

re: #106 Alouette

Please avoid the Holocaust/Nazi comparisons. What you do is trivialize the real Holocaust.

Agreed

217 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:28:46am

re: #215 OneMonkeysUncle

That's a perfectly fine thing to say; but why are you saying it in the context of this terrible smear of an article that doesn't just equate Jews with Nazis, but says they're worse?

218 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:29:11am

re: #209 McSpiff

I'd agree with all of that. To me the same (mostly) secular arguments used recently to justify an independent Kosovo also apply to Israel. To be honest, anywhere other than LGF I probably wouldn't have even bothered to state my objections to the divine rationale. Too easy to get lumped in with the kooks. It's really not a big deal to me why an individual decides Israel has a right to exist. My central reasoning on the issue is that the only way the jewish people will truly be able to defend themselves is by having their own independent nation state. I think we (the rest of the west) should support Israel because they've shown themselves to be stalwart allies. If Israel politics change and they decide they dislike the US/Canada, I wouldn't support them but I'd still say they have the right to exist, in the same way I don't support Iran but I still agree that the Iranian people have the right to an independent nation. It bothers me that it seems like some people's support for the right of Israel to exist is closely tied to the politics of Israel. To me the entire issue transcends politics. Hope that all makes sense.

When Theodor Hertzl was organizing the Zionist Congress back after WWI, one of the places he proposed was Uganda as a homeland for the Jews. Can you imagine the chaos if that had happened? Then and now? Uganda or Israel were the choices. Hertzl pushed for Israel because it was always our homeland.

No one denies the Italians Italy or the French France or the Germans Germany Or OR OR OR OR ....

219 jayzee  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:29:12am

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

I know the feeling, and I'm not even conservative.

This worries me. The far left has been anti-Semitic from day one, but the hard right was doing a good patter of being pro-Israel, even if their attitude toward Jews at home was sometimes not so effing inclusive. Now the facade is cracking, and I fear that it's cracking at a time when these folks are highly active, and working hard to whip up populist support.

This ain't good.

I am conservative and this really worries me too. Combine that with the post Charles just put up about Geller and the fascists and it's enough to make you want to take a really long nap. From a half full perspective, at least there is some commonality between the left and the right after all. /spit

220 Baier  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:29:20am

re: #209 McSpiff

To me, Israel's existence is not divinely given. Israel's existence is crucial to the survival of a people that have been systematically slaughtered and persecuted throughout history. If the earth was going to have layoffs and hired an alien consultants to decide which countries most needed to exist, Israel would be at the top of the list.

221 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:31:53am

re: #218 marjoriemoon

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your point about the French and the Italians. The Basque, for example, lack a homeland, the Roma do-- plenty of distinct ethnic groups lack homelands.

Israel should be supported because it's a democracy. You don't really have to get any more complicated than that. It's a democracy surrounded by thugocracies.

222 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:32:58am

re: #221 Obdicut

The Basque and the Roma are actually a great example of the hypocrisy of Europe on the subject of Israel.

223 Ben Hur  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:32:59am

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

With all due respect, Charles, it's anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist. It's not anti-Semitic, unless the conventional wisdom here is that Israel and the Jewish faith are one and indivisible.

I'm new here, and I'm not trying to be offensive or controversial. But I believe the distinction is really important. I believe - with all my heart - that Israel has a right to exist and a right to protect itself. But I also believe that we - every living human who enjoys any measure of freedom and self-determination at all - have an obligation to provide those same things for the Arabs who were displaced by the founding of Israel. Yes, it's a long, complex, almost insoluble situation; that does not relieve Humanity of the obligation to try. Branding any and all opposition to Israel's political and social policies as "anti-Semitic" is not helpful; it enflames an already burning pyre of human stupidity. (And having followed links here to Pammy Atlas the Augmented Breasts of Zion, so I have seen tat there's already way more than enough of that on the Internet now...)


Define "Zionism".

Then define "anti-Zionist."

224 Baier  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:33:13am

re: #218 marjoriemoon

When Theodor Hertzl was organizing the Zionist Congress back after WWI, one of the places he proposed was Uganda as a homeland for the Jews. Can you imagine the chaos if that had happened? Then and now? Uganda or Israel were the choices. Hertzl pushed for Israel because it was always our homeland.

No one denies the Italians Italy or the French France or the Germans Germany Or OR OR OR OR ...


Yeah, but Jews?
//

225 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:34:05am

re: #215 OneMonkeysUncle

I'm going to disagree with you - respectfully, but disagree nonetheless - because I have read the history, and I've formed different conclusions.

In the very founding document of modern Israel, it clearly states: "that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." Israel has a responsibility to the people who were living on that ground when Israel was founded. That's all I'm saying. I'm not making excuses for the PLO or canonizing Arafat or anything else; nothing excuses what's been done there, on either side. All I'm saying is that the Palestinian Arabs are there, they are humans, and they have as much right to freedom and self-determination as the Jews. That's all I'm saying.

No no no.... Why is it the Jews fault that the Arabs would not accept the partition into their own state? The land was ruled by the British anyway. It wasn't theirs. And you do know, like I said multiple times above, that Jews were living there the whole time. They were there 1000s of years ago. They were there in 1947 too, before during and after the war.

The Arab freedom and self-determination involved going into pizza parlors and city buses and blowing the damn place up. Innocent people trying to live their lives. You think this is justified? And when they finally figured out that it was BAD PROPAGANDA TO THEIR CAUSE OF "JUSTICE" they stopped.

226 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:34:52am

re: #221 Obdicut

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your point about the French and the Italians. The Basque, for example, lack a homeland, the Roma do-- plenty of distinct ethnic groups lack homelands.

Israel should be supported because it's a democracy. You don't really have to get any more complicated than that. It's a democracy surrounded by thugocracies.

No one questions the homeland of the French people or the Italian people. No one is telling the Spanish that their land doesn't belong to them.

227 jayzee  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:35:13am

re: #215 OneMonkeysUncle

I'm going to disagree with you - respectfully, but disagree nonetheless - because I have read the history, and I've formed different conclusions.

In the very founding document of modern Israel, it clearly states: "that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." Israel has a responsibility to the people who were living on that ground when Israel was founded. That's all I'm saying. I'm not making excuses for the PLO or canonizing Arafat or anything else; nothing excuses what's been done there, on either side. All I'm saying is that the Palestinian Arabs are there, they are humans, and they have as much right to freedom and self-determination as the Jews. That's all I'm saying.

All true, which might explain why Israel has allowed the Arabs to worship at the temple mount, while the Arabs desecrated the Jewish holy sites. It might explain why Israel offered land for peace after the Yom Kippur and Six Day wars, while the Arabs said no to peace. Which may explain why those Arabs living in Israel were given full citizenship after independence, but the Arab world tossed out, or killed its Jews. You are making excuses. Moral equivalence, where none exists, is an excuse and an attempt to justify the unjustifiable.

228 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:35:26am

re: #215 OneMonkeysUncle

And Israel has done that - protecting Islamic and Christian sites in a way that the Palestinians, Egyptians, and Jordanians never did for Jewish sites. After Israel captured the East Jerusalem - uniting it as Israel's capital in 1967, the first act was to provide the Islamic Waqf the control of the Temple Mount and the mosques.

Whereas Jordanians routinely defiled Jewish cemeteries and synagogues in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, Israel provided all religious sites with due deference and protections.

The Palestinian leadership has chosen for those Palestinians - war - jihad and terrorism. That's the path they chose, and their ultimate goal remains Israel's ultimate destruction because they do not wish for a 2-state solution. Just ask Hamas, which controls Gaza. Fatah will not seek a 2-state solution because they can't without worrying about being assassinated by the rank and file who have been fed the line of Israel's destruction for generations. Fatah is more than happy to continue with the current situation since they have to do anything that threatens their cozy position (including President for life Abbas), all while the West Bank improves its security situation with a modicum of quiet even with the continued presence of Israeli communities, checkpoints, and security situations required because terrorists continue to probe Israel's defenses on a daily basis.

229 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:35:49am

re: #217 Obdicut

I'm sorry, I got sidetracked. I'm not even thinking about the article right now; as I said earlier, I'm new here, and I'm trying to understand the conventional wisdom. I in NO WAY mean to defend or support the content of that article.

Also:

Someone above pointed out this previous post: Nekama. It's great food for thought for me, thank you.

230 borgcube  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:37:39am

re: #179 Sharmuta

I don't think being pro-Israel automatically means being anti-Palestinian. I think the overwhelming opinion at LGF is the Palestinians deserve a government that will agree to live in peace with its neighbors. I think that's actually very pro-Palestinian.

Palestinians deserve nothing until they demonstrate a desire to live in peace with Israel and install a representative government reflecting just that. Ain't gonna happen. That's not being pro or anti Palestinian, that's just reality.

231 McSpiff  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:37:59am

re: #218 marjoriemoon

When Theodor Hertzl was organizing the Zionist Congress back after WWI, one of the places he proposed was Uganda as a homeland for the Jews. Can you imagine the chaos if that had happened? Then and now? Uganda or Israel were the choices. Hertzl pushed for Israel because it was always our homeland.

No one denies the Italians Italy or the French France or the Germans Germany Or OR OR OR OR ...

I'll be honest, I'm not overly concerned with the location of Israel. That's the land the Jews said was their homeland, so that's where the state is. I'd be just as accepting if after World War 2, the leaders of the Jewish community had said "You know what? We've been in Europe for centuries. We want to stay here. Give us a chunk of defeated Germany to build our state on." But, I'm not Jewish. I can't tell the Jews where their homeland is. But I don't think that makes me any of less of a supporter (although after reading this post over, I'm wondering if someone will point out some obvious flaw in my logic..)

232 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:38:48am

re: #229 OneMonkeysUncle

I linked Nekama, and some other history that you can also find listed in the flippy triangle on the top left sidebar called "Resources". I hope you check them out.

233 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:38:56am

re: #226 marjoriemoon

No one questions the homeland of the French people or the Italian people. No one is telling the Spanish that their land doesn't belong to them.

Well, the Basque are definitely telling both the French and the Spanish that the Basque region doesn't belong to them. I don't think you're getting my point at all. There are many ethnic groups that have been displaced from their ancient homelands. There is nothing about having a historical homeland that gives you the right to that homeland.

re: #229 OneMonkeysUncle

Why would you, in a thread about an article, want to talk out of the context of that article? That's a little odd. And asking what the popular wisdom is-- this is a website with different people posting on it. It's not a hive mind. There's no conventional wisdom.

234 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:38:59am

re: #215 OneMonkeysUncle

I'm going to disagree with you - respectfully, but disagree nonetheless - because I have read the history, and I've formed different conclusions.

In the very founding document of modern Israel, it clearly states: "that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." Israel has a responsibility to the people who were living on that ground when Israel was founded. That's all I'm saying. I'm not making excuses for the PLO or canonizing Arafat or anything else; nothing excuses what's been done there, on either side. All I'm saying is that the Palestinian Arabs are there, they are humans, and they have as much right to freedom and self-determination as the Jews. That's all I'm saying.

Does that include giving them a "Right of Return" so that they can swarm into Israel and overwhelm the Jews? They were told to "get out of the way" by the Arab League and then promised that they would be allowed to return for their share of the loot.

So Israel has a "humanitarian obligation" to give them the loot they thought would be theirs after the conquering Arab armies drove the Jews into the sea?

235 Baier  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:43:06am

re: #233 Obdicut

Well, the Basque are definitely telling both the French and the Spanish that the Basque region doesn't belong to them. I don't think you're getting my point at all. There are many ethnic groups that have been displaced from their ancient homelands. There is nothing about having a historical homeland that gives you the right to that homeland.

What, in your mind, gives the right to having a homeland?

236 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:43:30am

re: #230 borgcube

I was thinking about that after I posted. The desire for a government who will seek peace has to come from the Palestinian people themselves. They have to want to toss out the corruption and chaos they currently have "representing" them. The hand they hold is the hand that holds them down.

237 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:44:06am

re: #234 Alouette

And what about the right of return of Jews to lands throughout the Middle east that they were forcibly uprooted from and whose properties were taken away after Israel's creation? That refugee population goes unmentioned - primarily because Israel absorbed the Jewish refugees without putting them in camps and treating them as chattel, which is precisely what the Arabs did to the Palestinians. There's no need to treat Palestinians as refugees in camps in Lebanon, West Bank, or anywhere else for that matter - except that the governments of those countries and the Palestinians themselves, saw a benefit to keeping the refugees treated as such. It's a club to force Israel to open its doors to all those people and to expand the population of refugees receiving aid from the UN under the only dedicated refugee organization for a specific population.

238 cliffster  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:44:06am

re: #235 Baier

Guns do. Germs and steel don't hurt either.

239 Baier  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:44:39am

re: #238 cliffster

Guns do. Germs and steel don't hurt either.

Exactly. Power.

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:44:57am

re: #231 McSpiff

I'll be honest, I'm not overly concerned with the location of Israel. That's the land the Jews said was their homeland, so that's where the state is. I'd be just as accepting if after World War 2, the leaders of the Jewish community had said "You know what? We've been in Europe for centuries. We want to stay here. Give us a chunk of defeated Germany to build our state on." But, I'm not Jewish. I can't tell the Jews where their homeland is. But I don't think that makes me any of less of a supporter (although after reading this post over, I'm wondering if someone will point out some obvious flaw in my logic..)

Well, the obvious flaw is that most of the surviving Jewish world, excepting the US community, was in the Middle East and North Africa. Also, there'd been a state-building Jewish community Palestine since the 1800s. And some other things, like, you know, historical attachment. But other than that...

241 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:46:21am

re: #215 OneMonkeysUncle

Israel has a responsibility to the people who were living on that ground when Israel was founded

Quicj question

How many Arabs, past and present, have been in the Knesset

How many Jews, past and present, have been in any Palastinian gov;t?

242 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:46:55am

re: #231 McSpiff

I'll be honest, I'm not overly concerned with the location of Israel. That's the land the Jews said was their homeland, so that's where the state is. I'd be just as accepting if after World War 2, the leaders of the Jewish community had said "You know what? We've been in Europe for centuries. We want to stay here. Give us a chunk of defeated Germany to build our state on." But, I'm not Jewish. I can't tell the Jews where their homeland is. But I don't think that makes me any of less of a supporter (although after reading this post over, I'm wondering if someone will point out some obvious flaw in my logic..)

I believe we would have been happy anywhere where we weren't being persecuted. The Jews lived in Ghettos in Europe, subjected to being tortured and killed. Things would be fine, maybe for a couple 100 years in fact, then it would start.

The fact is that we needed our own homeland so we could stand on our own 2 feet and not get pushed around and Israel IS our homeland.

Our new friend upthread may want to ask himself if he's every cried over the Jewish plight, 100s of years of persecution. The Arabs have 32 countries, the wealthiest in the world. Why don't they take their "refugees"? I'll tell you, because they're derelicts, savages, no damn good. Jordan doesn't want them. Eygpt doesn't want them. They're THEIR people for God's sake.

Ack, I gotta go. Now I'm getting pissy.

243 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:48:05am

re: #233 Obdicut

Well, the Basque are definitely telling both the French and the Spanish that the Basque region doesn't belong to them. I don't think you're getting my point at all. There are many ethnic groups that have been displaced from their ancient homelands. There is nothing about having a historical homeland that gives you the right to that homeland.

Yes, you're right. I'm not getting your point at all. I disagree strongly with your last statement. What does homeland mean to you then?

244 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:48:36am

re: #229 OneMonkeysUncle

...I'm new here, and I'm trying to understand the conventional wisdom.

Bullshit. You seem to be quite familiar with what is peddled by antisemites as "the conventional wisdom". Moreover, attempting to excuse your baiting by claiming that your objective is to discover the "conventional wisdom" here, is insulting.

245 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:51:33am

re: #244 Spare O'Lake

Bullshit. You seem to be quite familiar with what is peddled by antisemites as "the conventional wisdom". Moreover, attempting to excuse your baiting by claiming that your objective is to discover the "conventional wisdom" here, is insulting.

The conventional wisdom here is that blowing people up and bombing them for refusing to lie down and die is an evil thing to do.

246 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:52:16am

re: #242 marjoriemoon

I believe we would have been happy anywhere where we weren't being persecuted. The Jews lived in Ghettos in Europe, subjected to being tortured and killed. Things would be fine, maybe for a couple 100 years in fact, then it would start.

The fact is that we needed our own homeland so we could stand on our own 2 feet and not get pushed around and Israel IS our homeland.

Our new friend upthread may want to ask himself if he's every cried over the Jewish plight, 100s of years of persecution. The Arabs have 32 countries, the wealthiest in the world. Why don't they take their "refugees"? I'll tell you, because they're derelicts, savages, no damn good. Jordan doesn't want them. Eygpt doesn't want them. They're THEIR people for God's sake.

Ack, I gotta go. Now I'm getting pissy.

Why won't the Arab world take in their Palestinian "brothers"? Because they have been specially groomed as rabid attack beasts against Israel, and if the Arab League didn't have Israel as a target, they would have to fix their own freaking problems.

247 abolitionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:52:53am

re: #101 marjoriemoon

There's a video I saw of some guy who found Malkin out at a gathering of some sort ...]
That rabble rouser was Alex Jones.
248 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:53:13am

re: #235 Baier

I'm not sure I get your question. I'm saying that having an ancestral homeland doesn't give one the right to that land. If you're asking what gives a nation the right to exist at all, that's rather involved.

249 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:54:29am

re: #238 cliffster

I read that!

250 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:55:50am

re: #243 marjoriemoon

Not much, really. It means that's where my ancestors came from. It doesn't mean that I have any right to that land.

What does homeland mean to you? Perhaps I just don't get what you mean.

251 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:56:40am

OT--we have bought so many of the California Cutie boxes in the last few weeks that my boys have been able to make elaborate little mini-forts with them.

252 cliffster  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:58:01am

re: #248 Obdicut

I'm not sure I get your question. I'm saying that having an ancestral homeland doesn't give one the right to that land. If you're asking what gives a nation the right to exist at all, that's rather involved.

Questions of fairness are good and worthy pursuits of the civilized mind. In the end, though, might truly does make right. Cold hard reality is a bitch. If you have might, and you think someone without might is having their right trampled, then you might consider using your might to stand up for them. Fight for them, and say "we're better than cold, hard reality"

253 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 11:59:20am

re: #252 cliffster

What are you talking about?

254 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:05:47pm

re: #250 Obdicut

Not much, really. It means that's where my ancestors came from. It doesn't mean that I have any right to that land.

What does homeland mean to you? Perhaps I just don't get what you mean.

Zionism's a bit more involved, though. Jew were a people without a state (as recognized by their status as 'aliens' and de facto foreigners in every land in which they dwelt). Wherever Jews lived, we were always subject to persecution, pogrom, or simple discrimination and exclusion from social and national life.

Following WWII, the remaining Jews in Europe came away with the impression that perhaps Europe was not the place for them to live. Following countless ages of reciting "Next year in Jerusalem!" to mark their miraculous delivery from Egypt, and countless centuries of Rabbinical encouragement to settle in the land of Zion, and to live in the land in which so many devoutly hoped and prayed to be buried, they moved.

255 borgcube  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:07:46pm

re: #236 Sharmuta

I was thinking about that after I posted. The desire for a government who will seek peace has to come from the Palestinian people themselves. They have to want to toss out the corruption and chaos they currently have "representing" them. The hand they hold is the hand that holds them down.

Agreed. I just don't see it happening anytime soon, if ever. A quick trip over to Memri (remember them?) showcases the cesspool of paranoia and primitiveness that permeates the Islamic way of thinking in ME nations. It's hard to even imagine what the "Arab street" believes if this is the crap spewed by educated people and those famous Islamic "scholars."

The San Diego Chargers will win a Superbowl before Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist, let alone live in peace next to it.

256 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:08:14pm

I think that part of the problem that comes up when discussing the creation of Israel, is that many people see it as a deus ex machina number--the world reached down and said "Here, Jews, we're really sorry you got slaughtered, here's a country."

This is certainly the version most of my college lefty friends got.

The fact is, Israel was established in a place with a Jewish community on the ground, and when they got a share of the land, they fought like hell to keep it. No other nation in such a situation is asked to keep justifying why they should have it, certainly no other nation in the Middle East, where title to governments tends to be sort of--iffy.

257 davesax  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:09:31pm

Oy, another, "Who is a Jew, what does Israel mean," session, with LGF's Jewish scholar in residence...Obdicut.

How useful.

258 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:12:46pm

re: #254 Guanxi88

There are, again, plenty of people without a state, anyway, who were and are subject to pogroms, oppression, etc. There are entire ethnicities and cultures who don't exist any more because they actually were wiped out. One of the reasons Jews have such a long history of persecution is that we have such a long history of being Jews.

I really have no clue what to make of your last paragraph. If you read it literally, it says that all the Jews in Europe moved to Israel. Could you say what you meant again in a different way?

259 davesax  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:14:39pm

"One of the reasons Jews have such a long history of persecution is that we have such a long history of being Jews."

Huh?

260 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:14:41pm

re: #248 Obdicut

I'm not sure I get your question. I'm saying that having an ancestral homeland doesn't give one the right to that land. If you're asking what gives a nation the right to exist at all, that's rather involved.

I will grant you that having an ancestral homeland does not automatically give one the right to that land, however the identification of Jews with the biblical land of Israel is a strong moral basis for the claim in the absence of any superior claims.

In Israel's case, in addition to the ancestral and historical homeland factors, the land is also hers also by virtue of the following:
1. The UN Declaration of 1948;
2. The defensive military victory of 1948;
3. The defensive military victory of 1967;
4. The defensive military victory of 1973; and,
5. The complete and utter absence of any superior rights to the land in favour of any other group, including the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, Israel has repeatedly offered the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank land for peace, however they have to date not been interested.

261 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:15:33pm

re: #256 SanFranciscoZionist

And, likewise, many European countries ask Israel to make any number of concessions to the Palestines, while refusing to provide 'homelands' for their own oppressed minorities. like the Sammi in Finland, the Basque in France/Spain, the Roma all over Europe, and the enormous tangle of the Balkans and far Eastern Europe.

262 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:17:49pm

re: #258 Obdicut

There are, again, plenty of people without a state, anyway, who were and are subject to pogroms, oppression, etc. There are entire ethnicities and cultures who don't exist any more because they actually were wiped out. One of the reasons Jews have such a long history of persecution is that we have such a long history of being Jews.

I really have no clue what to make of your last paragraph. If you read it literally, it says that all the Jews in Europe moved to Israel. Could you say what you meant again in a different way?

Obdicut - most of Europe's surviving Jews did not move to Israel after the war. If you came away with that impression, chalk it up to imprecise language.

Peoples with a nation have existed, of course. Israel, though, and its land, was never fully free of Jewish presence. We've got Bronze Age era testimony to our continuous presence in the territory of Israel. We were expelled (not all of us, to be clear) by a range of different powers, but we always returned (again, not all of us, to be clear).

The legal status of Jews in most of the world, well into modern times, was as permanent foreigners, legally recognized as a distinct and alien national group resident in a variety of nations. Think of the Romani for a parallel, but even their case isn't perfectly like the case of Israel, as the Romani did not aspire to return to a homeland from which they had been expelled.

263 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:18:31pm

re: #105 marjoriemoon

I'm sorry you're trying to defend her, but she is what she is. It's not out of character for her either and she's no dumby.

Excuse me, but I am NOT trying to defend Malkin. I've been criticizing her openly here for over a year, and have never even come close to being kind or defending her writings. Please try to reading what I actually wrote AND attempting to understand it.

Wow. It's like all hate, all over, all the time around here today. Did some of the slime from Malkin's site spill over onto the posters here?

264 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:18:59pm

re: #260 Spare O'Lake

however the identification of Jews with the biblical land of Israel is a strong moral basis for the claim in the absence of any superior claims.

Well, do they we claim to the biblical areas we lived in that aren't currently part of Israel, too?

The rest of your post doesn't seem to be directed at me.


re: #259 davesax

There are many ethnic groups that were wiped out. They have no history. Jews have survived, by dint of incredible effort (that some would say is miraculous) and amazing sagacity in the face of evil and oppression. Oh, and 100% literacy, which is important.

I'm pointing out that one of the reasons that Jews have a long history of oppression is that we've managed to survive throughout the ages.

re: #257 davesax

I am in no way at all a Jewish scholar. What are you talking about?

265 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:19:50pm

re: #261 Obdicut

And, likewise, many European countries ask Israel to make any number of concessions to the Palestines, while refusing to provide 'homelands' for their own oppressed minorities. like the Sammi in Finland, the Basque in France/Spain, the Roma all over Europe, and the enormous tangle of the Balkans and far Eastern Europe.

The modern State of Israel is a legal fact, having been granted nationhood by the UN in 1948. This alone distinguishes her status from the irrelevant examples you have cited.

266 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:20:43pm

re: #263 SixDegrees

Excuse me, but I am NOT trying to defend Malkin. I've been criticizing her openly here for over a year, and have never even come close to being kind or defending her writings. Please try to reading what I actually wrote AND attempting to understand it.

Wow. It's like all hate, all over, all the time around here today. Did some of the slime from Malkin's site spill over onto the posters here?

People are starting to get their Credit Card statements for Christmas presents they bought early!
./ (somewhat)

267 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:20:54pm

re: #247 abolitionist

Alex Jones? No way LOL Wow. Maybe I should rethink that nut statement.

268 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:21:56pm

re: #262 Guanxi88

I don't really have a problem with anything you said in the post-- except the repeated assertion that all Jews want(ed) to return to Israel-- but I'm really unclear as to what you're saying has to do with what I said.

269 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:22:03pm

re: #266 sattv4u2

People are starting to get their Credit Card statements for Christmas presents they bought early!
./ (somewhat)

Maybe that's it.

Pretty weird to be criticized by someone I'm basically in agreement with on this matter.

270 davesax  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:22:24pm

re: #264 Obdicut

Oh, Obdicut. I know you're not.

But you lecture like you are one.

271 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:22:36pm

re: #265 Spare O'Lake

Okay. You appear to be having an argument with a position that I don't hold, so I can't really respond that well.

272 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:24:06pm

re: #269 SixDegrees

Maybe that's it.

Pretty weird to be criticized by someone I'm basically in agreement with on this matter.

I think there may be a general edginess around here lately, between the food fights we've had over AGW and Health Care. Two VERY serious issues where posters become very entrenched in their beleifs, thinking that if someone questions them they are being attacked

273 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:25:01pm

re: #268 Obdicut

I don't really have a problem with anything you said in the post-- except the repeated assertion that all Jews want(ed) to return to Israel-- but I'm really unclear as to what you're saying has to do with what I said.

Then we'll let it go. If you took away the impression that I was suggesting all of Europe's Jews wished to immigrate to Israel, I've covered it already.

274 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:25:46pm

re: #272 sattv4u2

I think there may be a general edginess around here lately, between the food fights we've had over AGW and Health Care. Two VERY serious issues where posters become very entrenched in their beleifs, thinking that if someone questions them they are being attacked

Perhaps.

I'm going to go do some Holiday drinking.

275 davesax  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:25:56pm

You can always tell which commentators are getting laid around the holiday season and who's not by the tone of the post.

The fact that I chose to acknowledge another pointless, eliptical argument about Israel's right to exist clearly shows that I'm not.

276 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:27:46pm

re: #274 SixDegrees

Perhaps.

I'm going to go do some Holiday drinking.

Have three for me!

277 davesax  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:29:04pm

I will be in the Bahamas for the holidays, surrounded by single Jews.

Do they have a right to be there? Were the Bahamians there first? I have no idea.

I'll post back and let you know.

278 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:29:32pm

re: #271 Obdicut

Okay. You appear to be having an argument with a position that I don't hold, so I can't really respond that well.

Fair enough, then don't bother. I'm not accusing you of holding positions contrary to everything I wrote.

279 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:30:29pm

re: #263 SixDegrees

Excuse me, but I am NOT trying to defend Malkin. I've been criticizing her openly here for over a year, and have never even come close to being kind or defending her writings. Please try to reading what I actually wrote AND attempting to understand it.

Wow. It's like all hate, all over, all the time around here today. Did some of the slime from Malkin's site spill over onto the posters here?

Touchy, ain't ya? You kept asking if she really knew what was being posted at VDARE since she wasn't actually posting there, but the articles are copied or linked to from somewhere else. If not a defense of her, you were giving her the benefit of the doubt that she was clueless about it and that's pretty much BS.

I can't stsand that little wench and the vile hatred she spreads, that is true.

280 ckb  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:32:13pm

I would put more creedence in these associations if I had seen Michelle post or say anything that was not unconditional support for Israel. I have not.

[Link: michellemalkin.com...]

281 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:32:19pm

re: #277 davesax

Good example. The Bahamas had a tribe living on them called the Lucayans, I think. They were all wiped out by the 1600s.

Fun historical note: Some of my ancestors were sold as slaves in the Bahamas.

282 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:33:00pm

re: #280 ckb

What credence do you have to have in her public statements that the founder of VDARE is her friend?

283 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:34:00pm

re: #272 sattv4u2

I think there may be a general edginess around here lately, between the food fights we've had over AGW and Health Care. Two VERY serious issues where posters become very entrenched in their beleifs, thinking that if someone questions them they are being attacked

Yep - it's been real ugly around here for quite a while. Can't put my finger on the exact cause of it, but there's no denying it. Seems like every thread and every post has the potential to turn into a full-on stress-fest & tension-convention.

284 abolitionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:35:35pm

re: #267 marjoriemoon

Alex Jones? No way LOL Wow. Maybe I should rethink that nut statement.

Your description in #101 seemed to describe the confrontation at the rally to levitate the Denver Mint.

Was it some other event you were referring to?

285 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:35:36pm

re: #283 Guanxi88

Yep - it's been real ugly around here for quite a while. Can't put my finger on the exact cause of it, but there's no denying it. Seems like every thread and every post has the potential to turn into a full-on stress-fest & tension-convention.

I'm getting sick and tired of that attitude of yours!
MWAH!
;D

286 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:37:18pm

Laters gaters.

287 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:37:30pm

re: #283 Guanxi88

Yep - it's been real ugly around here for quite a while. Can't put my finger on the exact cause of it, but there's no denying it. Seems like every thread and every post has the potential to turn into a full-on stress-fest & tension-convention.

Well- when some people get dingdowns for speaking out against left-wing anti-Semitism and LGF Watch, there might be tension.

288 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:37:42pm

re: #285 Spare O'Lake

I'm getting sick and tired of that attitude of yours!
MWAH!
;D

Honestly, though, if I wanted constant low-grade hostility and resentment flaring up into full-fledged hatred and vituperation at the first opportunity, I'd just stay home and chat with the in-laws.

289 davesax  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:37:52pm

Obdicut:

I was joking around.

I'm going on vacation. I will not be thinking about Lucayans. I'll be thinking about horny Zionist women.

Nothing else.

290 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:38:27pm

re: #283 Guanxi88

The number of people digging in their heels against the scientific evidence of AGW has been a little surprising, definitely. And I think that Charles' post about leaving the right riled up the blogosphere a lot-- lots of trolly flouncers.

These aren't exactly un-tense times for the nation or the world, either.

291 Guanxi88  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:38:31pm

re: #287 Sharmuta

Well- when some people get dingdowns for speaking out against left-wing anti-Semitism and LGF Watch, there might be tension.

That's been going on here? damn! A fellow goes away for a little while, and the whole place falls to pieces.

292 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:41:39pm

re: #289 davesax

Have fun. I'm glad that free Jews now play in the sand where my ancestors got sold. That's progress.

293 davesax  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:42:46pm

If you ever want to mix things up on a message board, at a social gathering, at work, at a doctor's appointment, on a boring date, or whatever...simply yell, "Israel!" then sink back and let the pontificating, emotional outbursts, and verbal sparring begin.

294 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:43:26pm

re: #277 davesax

I will be in the Bahamas for the holidays, surrounded by single Jews.

Do they have a right to be there? Were the Bahamians there first? I have no idea.

I'll post back and let you know.

FREE BAHAMIAN LAND!
JEWS OUT OF THE CARIBBEAN!

/

actually, wait, there probably is a judenhasser movement in the Bahamas somewhere. Who am I kidding.

295 Joo-LiZ  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:44:04pm

re: #248 Obdicut

I'm not sure I get your question. I'm saying that having an ancestral homeland doesn't give one the right to that land. If you're asking what gives a nation the right to exist at all, that's rather involved.

If you must get into that whole discussion, I'd like to point out that one of the most compelling reasons for the "right" of the Jewish state, without looking at ethics or morals or historical "claims", is that even before the '47 UN Vote, and '48 declaration of independence, the Jews of Mandate Palestine had already built themselves a fully-functioning state in the area with its own economy, defense mechanism, political and social structures.

It was a state in all but name already, and relatively self-sufficient as such. All that was lacking was the formality of recognition, which they received.

It is not as though the Jewish state had HAD to be founded at the expense of another. It only worked out that way because there was really no "other" state to begin with, and those whose state it would have been had no interest in making one.

296 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:44:37pm

re: #284 abolitionist

Your description in #101 seemed to describe the confrontation at the rally to levitate the Denver Mint.

Was it some other event you were referring to?

Yep, that's it. I didn't see that whole clip, just the ranting parts. I also didn't know he said Kill her. See what happens with edited versions. Anyway, that would be bad, but calling her a racist, I don't have a problem with.

297 davesax  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:45:35pm

re: #292 Obdicut

298 abolitionist  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:46:55pm

re: #296 marjoriemoon

To the best of my knowledge, the "kill..." exhortations were by someone allied with Jones. (In the interest of accuracy)

299 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:48:13pm

re: #295 Joo-LiZ

True and I said the same upthread.

But Israel wasn't founded at the expense of anyone. Other than the Jews were already there, the Arabs were offered a state by their buddies at the U.N. and it wasn't good enough. It was all or nothing and what's changed in the last 60 years?

300 davesax  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:49:11pm

re: #292 Obdicut

Oy vey. Such drama.

301 SixDegrees  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:49:15pm

re: #279 marjoriemoon

Touchy, ain't ya? You kept asking if she really knew what was being posted at VDARE since she wasn't actually posting there, but the articles are copied or linked to from somewhere else. If not a defense of her, you were giving her the benefit of the doubt that she was clueless about it and that's pretty much BS.

I can't stsand that little wench and the vile hatred she spreads, that is true.

Right. Because vile and hatred and blind, seething rage trump actual facts every time.

Oh, wait - now I'm confused about whether we're talking about Malkin or someone else...

302 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:49:35pm

re: #295 Joo-LiZ

I was actually saying that we shouldn't get into that discussion, if you'll notice.

My only point in that regard was that having had an ancient homeland doesn't give the modern descendants a right to that land. As I said, I fully support Israel-- it's a modern democracy. That's all it takes for my support. I do not find a discussion of the ethics of Israel's founding necessary at all. It exists. It's a democracy. That's a good thing.

303 suchislife  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:50:39pm

re: #283 Guanxi88

I really think that this is because there are people here who genuinely stand on different political sides, yet they all feel entitled to speak out about their beliefs and convictions. That means that everybody constantly comes up against trigger words or unquestioned core beliefs he/she never considered before.
I remember when I started posting here only a couple of weeks ago, I was downdinged by someone for saying that there are Dems on LGF. That person, I don't remember who it was, stated that this proved I knew nothing about this blog.
So I think that LGF went from being a community where you basically knew what was acceptable and what wasn't to a place where you actually have to encounter strangers and engage them. And somehow, I feel it still is a community. I have never seen something like that on a blog before.

304 suchislife  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:52:02pm

re: #287 Sharmuta
Could you link to that?

305 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:54:07pm

re: #301 SixDegrees

Right. Because vile and hatred and blind, seething rage trump actual facts every time.

Oh, wait - now I'm confused about whether we're talking about Malkin or someone else...

I don't want to beat this into the ground. Charles posted at #80 her connection to Brimelow and you posted more further after that, but maybe you hadn't read it, giving YOU the benefit of the doubt. See how fair I am?

306 suchislife  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:56:33pm

re: #303 suchislife

not weeks, months

307 Joo-LiZ  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:57:36pm

re: #302 Obdicut

I was actually saying that we shouldn't get into that discussion, if you'll notice.

My only point in that regard was that having had an ancient homeland doesn't give the modern descendants a right to that land. As I said, I fully support Israel-- it's a modern democracy. That's all it takes for my support. I do not find a discussion of the ethics of Israel's founding necessary at all. It exists. It's a democracy. That's a good thing.

I haven't really been following the whole argument from the beginning -- jumped in reading about mid-thread. It just seemed to me like there was a discussion going on about homelands and rights of minorities to have their own state, and thought I would put my two-cents in (that in the end, that argument is irrelevant, because there were other pragmatic reasons for what happened).

I also didn't read your comment as a collective "we shouldn't get into that" more of a "I could explain my viewpoint on that, but it would be too complicated"... Since I don't see it from quite as complicated a viewpoint, I thought I'd lay down my bottom line.

Also, just for general interest, I found Benny Morris' lectures on the creation of the refugee crisis last year to be the most frank, realistic assessment of what really happened that I have ever heard.

Part 1:

Youtube Video

Part 2:
Youtube Video

Part 3:
Youtube Video

Part 4:
Youtube Video

Part 5:
Youtube Video
308 prairiefire  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 12:59:18pm

re: #303 suchislife

Charles is a great moderator. Sharm, Reine, tons of old timers(on the LGF site only!) have made room for the opinions of people from middle to left with classical debate integrity and respect. Times is tough all over right now. There is a lot of anxiety and impotent rage, for whatever reason, in American society today.
Stick around for the puns, sarcastic references, great music clips and snark. There is no other site like LGF, not that I've found.
I'll go get the drinks now.

309 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:02:26pm

re: #275 davesax

You can always tell which commentators are getting laid around the holiday season and who's not by the tone of the post.

The fact that I chose to acknowledge another pointless, eliptical argument about Israel's right to exist clearly shows that I'm not.

lol Thanks for the levity.

Mr. Moon has been working almost straight through this month and will not have a day off until after Jan 1.

Nuff said.

310 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:10:08pm

re: #109 OneMonkeysUncle

Nathan Sharansky says:

"It must be made very clear that incitement against Israel rooted in falsehood and the discriminatory attitude towards it are acts of racism. The mask of enlightenment must be torn off anti-Israel propaganda to expose its true face - antisemitism."

311 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:10:44pm

It's been nothing like what it used to be around here. You couldn't make a contrary opinion without being met with snark and name-calling. The larger part of those people have been banned or left. I miss some, but many were very cruel to me and others here. That level of nastiness has subsided which is wonderful.

312 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:11:46pm

re: #310 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

Nathan Sharansky says:

"It must be made very clear that incitement against Israel rooted in falsehood and the discriminatory attitude towards it are acts of racism. The mask of enlightenment must be torn off anti-Israel propaganda to expose its true face - antisemitism."

And who knows better? I consider Sharansky one of my heros.

Bravo!

313 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:17:49pm

Graffiti Example of the New Antisemitism

314 davesax  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:21:33pm

re: #309 marjoriemoon

No problem. I'm here to please.

315 Effy  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:29:05pm

I was glad to see this post here. I have been reading LGF for around two years now, and I was afraid that Charles' abandonment of the right would decrease his support for Israel. I am not enamored of the right myself, but every leftist site is so blatantly anti-Israel to the point of anti-semitism. Does anyone know why??? Why do most conservatives see how ridiculous most Palestinian claims are and most liberals embrace the Palestinian cause? Why?? Anyone? Anyhow, that is the reason I am not about to abandon the conservative movement.

316 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:31:17pm

re: #304 suchislife

It's probably best if we just forget about it.

317 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:35:16pm

re: #307 Joo-LiZ

I just meant I find arguments about the creation of the state Israel pointless as hell. Israel exists.

318 suchislife  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:37:31pm

re: #308 prairiefire

Yes. Personally I'm becoming a big fan of wrenchwrench. But I have to say, the push back against iceweasel lately, complete with never clearly stated dark suggestions of an evil agenda, changed my opinion about quite a few lizards for the worse.
Still, like I said, it's a genuinely big tent. And really there are few things more emotionally taxing then sharing your "home" in whatever sense with newcomers that come from a different tribe, so to speak. I respect every long time lizard who toughens it out and stays fair in the face of the influx of left voices to no end. I really mean that.

319 suchislife  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:43:48pm

re: #318 suchislife

Oh dear, I just realized that with the emotions running high, my "tribe" comparison might make someone think I'm suggesting disliking or even vilifying leftys is like racism. I don't think that. I think a political conviction is completely different from the color of one's skin, and should be treated differently.

320 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:54:58pm

re: #315 Effy

There is no reason whatsoever to believe that Charles will abandon Israel. He's said nothing at all to indicate such a thing and for his staunch support, I'll eat my computer chip by chip if such a thing happened.

The Left is not evil. Approx 85% of Jews are Democrats, lefties, liberals. The vast majority of those people support Israel. Some don't, but the Jews who do not support Israel generally have no affiliation, culturally, religiously or in any way to Judaism. They don't care, they don't know their history, or have bought into the anti-Semitic propaganda masked as "anti-Zionism" dontcha know like little Monkey Boy upstairs.

Our elected Democratic officials support Israel, Only a small handful do not. 85-90% of Congress votes on all measures supporting Israel.

321 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 1:57:36pm

re: #318 suchislife

You know... people reap what they sow.

322 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 2:12:25pm

Sorry I missed the thread but we went Christmas shopping and took the dogs to the park.

323 suchislife  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 2:12:40pm

re: #321 Sharmuta

Really I cannot reconcile what you do and say about this issue with the Sharmuta I see elsewhere. So I keep thinking you might have reasons you're not telling, or you told and I missed it. Obviously, you have no need to explain yourself to me, though.
I do feel I have a right to state how it appears to me. I won't hark on it and I won't bring it up again off topic. I will continue to act and speak according to the best of my knowledge, though, and right now, the best of my knowledge is that she did nothing to deserve this level of vitriol.

324 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 2:20:36pm

re: #283 Guanxi88

Because the internets are serious business.

325 S.D.  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 2:29:39pm

Ow, that had to leave a mark...

326 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 2:31:27pm

re: #320 marjoriemoon

Our elected Democratic officials support Israel, Only a small handful do not. 85-90% of Congress votes on all measures supporting Israel.

Because if they don't AIPAC will make their lives a living breathing hell if they don't? Just guessing.

And eff-you-very-much for the "monkey boy" crack. I tried to respond civilly to you, but you appear to be so blinded by your Sky God devotion and our certainty that I'm (a) wrong and (b) not willing to learn, that you didn't want to hear it. Neither of those things are correct.

327 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 2:32:47pm

I'm making typo because I'm angry, and I don't know how to fix them, but I trust the message makes it through anyway.

328 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 2:34:40pm

re: #327 OneMonkeysUncle

I'm making typo because I'm angry, and I don't know how to fix them, but I trust the message makes it through anyway.

Yes- your Jewish Lobby smear came through loud and clear.

329 gegenkritik  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 2:39:57pm

re: #326 OneMonkeysUncle
Yes, the powerful zionist lobby will crush them, if they don't follow their command. By the way, why don't they follow the Arabic Oil lobby - which has much more money than AIPAC - and agitate against Israel?

I know that it won't make sense in your anti-semitic mind, but did you ever thought about the possibility that most of the delegates in the US are pro-Israel not because of some evil conspiracy but because of the overwhelming majority of American people is pro-Israel?

330 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 2:50:00pm

Get over yourselves. If you believe that AIPAC is actually funded solely by American contributors and is not skirting marginally around Federal law, we don't have anything to talk about. Their actions speak louder than any words I could type here. If they're so squeaky clean and above reproach, why have AIPAC staffers been convicted of passing American state secrets to Israeli government officials? Are you going to tell me now that I'm anti-Semitic because I object to the way a foreign power is operating on the American government?

331 suchislife  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 2:52:10pm

re: #326 OneMonkeysUncle

Well, if you are (b), stick around. A lot of people on this blog have changed or adjusted their opinion on a number of issues, some of them pretty fundamental. But, there are some things, like racism and antisemitism, where really no one will give you space and time to learn without pushback, and frankly I think that's how it should be.
Some unsolicited advice: Of course, if you´re antisemitic and like that, stay away. But you've clearly stated you don't think you are. So, do read the blog for a while, see if other people make points you agree with while doing a better job of not seeming antisemitic. Find out whether group bias or one sided information might have given you a wrong picture, thus co-opting you into an antisemitc agenda. (always worth the effort, imo). Discuss other topics.
But frankly, every poster I've seen starting out with this kind of aggression on such a topic has turned out to be a sock puppet, or a troll, or gave up to quickly to categorize. So maybe this is useless. Still.

332 Sharmuta  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 2:55:59pm

re: #330 OneMonkeysUncle

Are you going to tell me now that I'm anti-Semitic because I object to the way a foreign power is operating on the American government?

Do you feel this strongly about other special interests and their influence on our government?

333 suchislife  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 3:00:15pm

re: #331 suchislife

Or, you know, whatever. That was rather patronizing, I guess. And maybe naive. I mean, you did say an acticle with Kristallnacht in the title was arguing against Israel, nothing to do with Jews, without even considering the author. That's pretty conclusive.

334 MandyManners  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 3:01:35pm

re: #327 OneMonkeysUncle

I'm making typo because I'm angry, and I don't know how to fix them, but I trust the message makes it through anyway.

Yes, the message that you're a Jew-hating asshole comes through loud and clear.

335 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 3:08:41pm

re: #330 OneMonkeysUncle

You're getting worse, not better.

336 Bob Levin  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 3:32:16pm

re: #31 Blueheron

It's because there are 14 million Jews--that won't go away no matter what version of the Final Solution they throw at us. Which, evidently, is very frustrating to the Paul Craig Buchanan's of the world. Heh.

337 Bob Levin  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 3:37:33pm

re: #54 Blueheron

They stopped serving coffee and no one goes anymore.

338 Bob Levin  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 3:40:36pm

re: #59 Blueheron

And see how we have that base covered--with all of those Jewish Doctors. I tell you, we think of everything. Except for the coffee. I can't believe they don't serve coffee anymore.

339 Bob Levin  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 3:57:22pm

re: #102 lawhawk

This is actually a serious comment--but one of the reasons for the degradation of the language surrounding the Holocaust is because those who liberated the camps and those who survived the camps simply can't bring themselves to talk about it. They will say that words are not adequate, nowhere near adequate. My dad did a lot during the war, earned a Silver Star. He never backed away from anything in his life--except for one thing. They wanted him to go into a camp to translate because he could speak Yiddish. The closer he got to the camp, and he only told this story once in his life, the stench made him so sick he couldn't go in. There are no words in any language on the planet that can describe what happened.

340 Bob Levin  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 4:20:50pm

re: #156 Obdicut

Not exactly. What she said is the best possible refutation for the claim that there is a difference between being anti-Semitic and being anti-Zionist.

You are definitely not out in the cold. Come in and argue, discuss, ask questions, flip people off, whatever.

341 Bob Levin  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 4:27:04pm

re: #166 OneMonkeysUncle

I think one of the themes of this thread is about how language describing one thing has been hijacked and distorted to mean something else. Did you catch that?

342 Bob Levin  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 4:34:32pm

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

Not just expelled, but murdered. 20,000. Black September.

343 Bob Levin  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 4:38:52pm

re: #186 Obdicut

No it doesn't. Once you referenced your Sephardic background, you're inside. It might feel like the outside, but it's inside.

344 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 4:46:02pm

re: #315 Effy

Why do most conservatives see how ridiculous most Palestinian claims are and most liberals embrace the Palestinian cause? Why?? Anyone? Anyhow, that is the reason I am not about to abandon the conservative movement.

Since I am - by American standards most dedicedly - a liberal, I feel inclined to reply. If I only knew what "the Palestinian cause" was.

Although the thought of how a Palestinian state would (or would not) work do not seem very appealing, I do support a two-state solution; because the alternatives I can think off seem worse, for Israelis and Palestinians alike; although the more I learn about this region and this conflict, the less I seem to actually understand.

Does that mean I support the Palestinian cause? Well, it might make me agree with some Palestinian nationalists, but others seem to dream of either a totally utopian one-state solution, democratic if they're amonst the decent folks, a totalitarian, religious dictatorship based on ethnic cleansing if they're not. Although Palestine is deeply militaristic and ridden by radical Islamism and some particularily ugly forms of Arab nationalism; I hope that we're still able to find some allies in the battle for democracy, human rights and secularism - there, too.

At the same time, I certainly see how many - most, depending on which Palestinians you are talking about - Palestinian claims are ridiculous, at best. At worst...

The reason for the real anti-Semitism found in parts of the Left, at least here in Norway, is a combination of thorough, but extremely one-sided, knowledge about the sad state of Palestinians, and an amazing lack of knowledge or willingness to seek knowledge about Israel. My impression is that this is not as bad amongst American liberals, unless you are talking way left (by American standards, again).

If Israel is indeed the only reason to stay with the conservative movement, I'm somewhat puzzled. I'd say another pro-Israeli liberal or ten would not really hurt. And there's certainly enough of stupidity - in regards to this issue too - on that side of the aisle, as well.

345 Bob Levin  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 4:50:00pm

re: #209 McSpiff

Once the question is raised whether or not Israel has a 'right to exist', your feet are already in the swamp. Nations do things, sometimes good things, sometimes stupid things. And sometimes cruel things. But the standard of 'right to exist' only applies to one nation on this planet, Israel. And that is where the anti-Semitic swamp begins to lap at one's feet.

346 What, me worry?  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 5:19:06pm

re: #326 OneMonkeysUncle

Because if they don't AIPAC will make their lives a living breathing hell if they don't? Just guessing.

And eff-you-very-much for the "monkey boy" crack. I tried to respond civilly to you, but you appear to be so blinded by your Sky God devotion and our certainty that I'm (a) wrong and (b) not willing to learn, that you didn't want to hear it. Neither of those things are correct.

At post #109, you didn't come in asking about the Middle East conflict. You had no questions. You made up your mind and stated your opinion why anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism (a little further down). At least that's what I got from reading you. You didn't mention anything about rethinking your ideas so it appears to me your mind is made up, even after some great links and thought from a number of people to the contrary.

Your comment, although you may not have realized it, "I'm well aware that's how Jews use the word "Zionism"" is pretty insulting. We don't "use" the word. The word means what it means. It isn't what we would like it to mean. In fact THEY, those who would say I can be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic want it to mean something entirely different. That Zionism is some kind of ruse to kill another group of people. So really, that sentence spoke volumes about where you're coming from. I think I held my tongue as well as could be expected.

Read the links and study the history and you'll have a 180 degree change in opinion.

347 insanity police  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 5:32:02pm

re: #326 OneMonkeysUncle

One can debate what is anti-Semitism, versus what is anti-Israelism/anti-Zionism. They're both bad. They too often overlap. Obviously you haven't learned that.

348 insanity police  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 5:33:58pm

re: #326 OneMonkeysUncle

I think you would be more at home at VDare than over here at LGF.

349 Bob Levin  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 5:35:45pm

re: #330 OneMonkeysUncle

re: #330 OneMonkeysUncle

Get over yourselves. If you believe that AIPAC is actually funded solely by American contributors and is not skirting marginally around Federal law, we don't have anything to talk about. Their actions speak louder than any words I could type here. If they're so squeaky clean and above reproach, why have AIPAC staffers been convicted of passing American state secrets to Israeli government officials? Are you going to tell me now that I'm anti-Semitic because I object to the way a foreign power is operating on the American government?

And another sparkling case for the establishment of Israel emerges! So if I contribute to AIPAC I'm part of an international network of spies that has hijacked the US government?

Whatever should be done with me?

350 marsl  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 5:37:12pm

Paul Craig Roberts is a disgrace.

351 captdiggs  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 6:29:36pm

re: #347 insanity police

One can debate what is anti-Semitism, versus what is anti-Israelism/anti-Zionism. They're both bad. They too often overlap.

They overlap nearly entirely now, imo.
There really is no reason to single out Israel for the vitriol it receives, primarily from the left, other than anti-semitism.
China occupies Tibet.
Turkey occupies part of Cyprus.
Russia levels Grozny.
The Lebanese keep Palestinians in squalid camps with no rights.
Kuwait expelled 300,000 palestinians.
The Saudis use phosphorus bombs in Yemen.
Jordan kills 10,000 Palestinians during Black September.
300,000 dead in Darfur.
......etc.

All overlooked, because Israel is singled out for demonization, despite the reality that it was the arabs who declared war ( illegally, under the UN charter) against Israel and have dictated the entire confrontation from day one.

None of that makes any sense unless you add anti-semitism into the equation.

352 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 7:05:34pm

Marjorie, you can complain about everyone else using the word "Zionist" incorrectly, but you can't change the fact that they DO. Whether you like it or not, and I sympathize that you don't, it means something different now than what you want it to me. That's just a fact. You can accept that, and work with it, or you can hunker down and try to pretend the world away.

I thought because Charles had experienced such a public, it would be reflected in the community here. I was wrong. And it's too bad, because in the several weeks I read here before I started posting, there were quite a few regulars who sounded like interesting, intelligent people.

As for the rest of the rancorous assholes here, although I've already learned some interesting things from the post someone linked to earlier here, and would actually like to debate some of my assumptions with someone who know's what they're talking about, your derision and idiotic insults convince me that none of you know any better than I do...

353 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 7:09:37pm

re: #351 captdiggs

They overlap nearly entirely now, imo.
There really is no reason to single out Israel for the vitriol it receives, primarily from the left, other than anti-semitism.
China occupies Tibet.
Turkey occupies part of Cyprus.
Russia levels Grozny.
The Lebanese keep Palestinians in squalid camps with no rights.
Kuwait expelled 300,000 palestinians.
The Saudis use phosphorus bombs in Yemen.
Jordan kills 10,000 Palestinians during Black September.
300,000 dead in Darfur.
...etc.

All overlooked, because Israel is singled out for demonization, despite the reality that it was the arabs who declared war ( illegally, under the UN charter) against Israel and have dictated the entire confrontation from day one.

None of that makes any sense unless you add anti-semitism into the equation.

They are ALL awful, and utterly indefensible. And DOES make me question, AM I actually anti-semetic?, because for reasons I don't know, the situation with the Israelis and the Palestinians seem to matter more to me... Is it the persistent media coverage? I don't know.

I will say that, on a purely personal level, I do feel more emotionally about the occupation of Tibet by the Chinese than by any of the other examples - I'm Buddhist and although I'm not a Tibetan Buddhist, I have enormous respect for the Dalai Lama and his position. The destruction of the monasteries in Tibet is truly horrible to me.

354 daliarose  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 7:39:44pm

Thank you again, Charles, for your calm and and sanity and reason. It is so very hard to call myself conservative anymore, due to the poisoned atmosphere, but I am convinced it is they who have moved and not I. Also, thank you for helping me see reason that Obama is actually a moderate, or certainly moving in that direction.

355 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 7:46:41pm

re: #344 oslogin

If Israel is indeed the only reason to stay with the conservative movement, I'm somewhat puzzled.

I don't think there is anyone who believes that, including you.

356 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 8:07:46pm

re: #354 daliarose

Thank you again, Charles, for your calm and and sanity and reason. It is so very hard to call myself conservative anymore, due to the poisoned atmosphere, but I am convinced it is they who have moved and not I. Also, thank you for helping me see reason that Obama is actually a moderate, or certainly moving in that direction.

In politics almost everything is relative, and there are few if any absolutes. Mainstream conservatism has in recent history had little to do with the far right snake-oil and hateful religious extremism being peddled these days by a small percentage of US politicians and a few public affairs TV and radio hosts and craven internet bloggers. Their views are an aberration and represent nothing more than a temporary blip on the radar screed of American politics.
It is necessary to be patient and to remain true to the conservative principles in which you believe. It will hopefully not be too long before sanity returns to the leadership of the GOP. In the meantime, there is no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

357 Bob Levin  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 8:25:59pm

re: #353 OneMonkeysUncle

They are ALL awful, and utterly indefensible. And DOES make me question, AM I actually anti-semetic?,

Either that or you're letting someone else spin your gyroscope. That same type of list can be made for lobbying groups. Every organization has a lobbying group, from labor unions to investment bankers. Heck, when baseball players were made to testify before Congress, another special interest group was formed on the spot. There is profound Saudi influence in the Department of State and over an impressive number of ambassadors--so much so that George Schultz used to take every ambassador to a map and ask him to point to his or her country. Then he would frequently need to correct them and point to the US as their country.

In the US' desire to be an impartial and honest broker in the Middle East, there is a pattern--when things look too bad for the Arab world, arrest someone from AIPAC as a spy. These arrests usually go no farther than the headlines. But those headlines are pretty effective, aren't they?

If you've been reading the conversations for some time, then you are aware of the post yesterday regarding the close relationship between the American and Israeli military. So how do you differentiate between allies sharing information and spying? It's a blurry line that is used for political purposes every so often.

Frequently political fights are fought in the battlefield of a dictionary. It's become more sophisticated lately, termed 'fighting over the narrative'. You can't 'work with' a definition that declares that 'up' is 'down' or that 'evil' is 'not so bad comparatively'. That's when you have to argue about the real meaning of words.

And if you wish to do some quality self-examination, you can't go wrong checking how you define words.

358 Bob Levin  Mon, Dec 21, 2009 8:42:28pm

re: #315 Effy

I was glad to see this post here. I have been reading LGF for around two years now, and I was afraid that Charles' abandonment of the right would decrease his support for Israel. I am not enamored of the right myself, but every leftist site is so blatantly anti-Israel to the point of anti-semitism. Does anyone know why??? Why do most conservatives see how ridiculous most Palestinian claims are and most liberals embrace the Palestinian cause? Why?? Anyone? Anyhow, that is the reason I am not about to abandon the conservative movement.

Although the story is long and complex, the short version is that those living in the West Bank and Gaza, helped by Europe and the UN, have convinced so many people that they are a minority--despite the simple fact that your own eyes will tell you differently if you just look at a map. In the modern liberal mind, minorities are good, majorities are bad. If it's any comfort, the stark differences between liberals and conservatives are relatively new. One generation back, pragmatism was dominant in both parties, not ideology.

Actually, that's not much comfort, is it?

359 Øyvind Strømmen  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 2:16:49am

re: #355 Spare O'Lake

I don't think there is anyone who believes that, including you.

No, I don't really believe that. But that's what Effy said, isn't it?

360 Øyvind Strømmen  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 4:00:12am

re: #112 gegenkritik

re: #102 lawhawk

And this "Israel's Reichskristallnacht"-Bullshit is the same softcore-denial of the Holocaust that people like my friend Oslogin are promoting as well, when they claim that "Muslims are the Jews of today".

You are now so desperate that you have to find another thread entirely, and then lie about what I've said? Fine. It suits you well.

As said before, Nazis hardly invented Anti-Semitism; and some of the Anti-Semitism found in for instance Norway in the 1930s, where fascism was not very popular, is remarkably similar to anti-Muslim bigotry today, so similar that you could replace the word "Jew" with the world "Muslim" and post it on Gates of Vienna or similar blogs without anyone noticing. That does not mean that you can compare Nazi Anti-Semitism (or for that matter the anti-Semitism of Eastern European pogroms with modern-day anti-Muslim bigotry).

Of course, feel free to turn any comparison between any kind of anti-Semitism and any kind of anti-Muslim hatred (like the hatred that led to Srebrenica) into "Holocaust denialism". Is it also wrong to compare the Holocaust and the Porrajmos, by the way?

Also, I can not recall you replying to what I pointed out: the German NPD, which you correctly call neo-Nazi (although neo-fascist is perhaps more appropriate, they're influenced by de Benoist and others), the Flemish Voorpost and the Vlaams Belang. Neither can I recall you commenting on the actual Holocaust denialism found in and near the Vlaams Blok and its reincarnation. This seems a bit odd, to say the very least.

361 Øyvind Strømmen  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 4:21:29am

re: #360 oslogin

I did something wrong there. To clarify, my reply was to gegenkritik, not lawhawk.

362 gegenkritik  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 7:46:24am

re: #353 OneMonkeysUncle


I will say that, on a purely personal level, I do feel more emotionally about the occupation of Tibet by the Chinese than by any of the other examples - I'm Buddhist and although I'm not a Tibetan Buddhist, I have enormous respect for the Dalai Lama and his position. The destruction of the monasteries in Tibet is truly horrible to me.


It does not surprise me that you admire the Dalai Lama - who is a Nazi-friend and was so saddened about the defeat of his beloved Nazi-Germany - and this folkish-racist mob in Tibet, that murdered several Han-Chinese out of racist motivation.

363 Effy  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 7:53:28am

Thank you Bob Levin, Oslogin, and marjoriemoon, for your replies. It is nice to find a place where people will actually engage in civilized and thoughtful conversation. Though oslogin's post in a way raises more questions than it answers, since the question becomes why does the press cover the story in such a one sided way. One would think that the average intelligent journalist could easily tell the difference between an open democratic and a closed authoritarian regime, between a society that only wants to live in piece in a small little piece of land that can't get much smaller and one that promotes hate and murder. Can they not see the Arabs in Kenesset, but not see the that all the Jews had to flee their homes in Arab lands?Except that the Jews were taken in to Israel, while the Arabs with their vast lands left the Palestinians in camps in order to push world opinion against Israel.

364 gegenkritik  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 8:05:45am

re: #360 oslogin
As I said: I do not discuss such things with Holocaust deniers who insists that anti-semitism aims on Muslims, that Muslims suffer the same way as Jews did and who triviliaze anti-semitism by implicating that it is just a normal form of xenophobia.

the German NPD, which you correctly call neo-Nazi (although neo-fascist is perhaps more appropriate, they're influenced by de Benoist and others

That's the tragedy with you: you are talking about things that you did not understand. You can't distingush between National Socialism and Fascism in general (and claiming that the NPD is influenced bei de Benoist is showing that you have absolutely no knowledge about this issue - actually, after Molau's withdrawal there is no single important supporter of de Benoist left in the party, and the influential circles of the NPD like the Dresdner Schule were rejecting the concept of the New Right).

But it's not only that you have no knowledge, it is also a willing ignorance: by labeling everything as fascist, you can hush up the eliminatoric anti-semitism that is idiosyncratic for National-Socialism (and, though in a different form, for Ummah-Socialism), but not for Fascism in general.

Anyway, go on with your website and write about "Eurofascism" and de Benoist's huge influence on the main party of German National Socialism. You are ridiculous.

By the way: I am not surprised that you are a supporter of a "two state solution", since under the current circumstances it means nothing than an imminent danger for Israel.

365 gegenkritik  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 8:20:30am

re: #360 oslogin

Is it also wrong to compare the Holocaust and the Porrajmos, by the way?

It's difficult to explain this for someone who has no knowledge on this subject, but I'll try: In fact, the Porajmos is the only kind of genocidal massacre that with its intentions can be compared to the Shoah, though there are differences: in Nazi-Ideology, there was a place on earth for all kind of people, may it be as slave-laborers (like the east-Europeans and Russians should have become), as vassals (like most other Europeans) or allies (like Arab-Muslims). The only exceptions were the Jews and Sinti/Romanies/Jenische, as for them, Nazi-ideology planned their total destruction, since they were seen as anti-Völker. The difference is the role that they had in Nazi-ideology: while the Jews are seen as the masterminds behind capitalism and bolshewism and serve as the objects of the pathic projections of the anti-semite, the Sinti, Romanies and Jenische were just seen as inferiors parasites of the world's status quo that is caused by the Jews.

366 Kobyashi Maru  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 12:29:50pm

Michelle Malkin married to Jesse Malikn, at least born a Jew, practicing or not, easily eligible to be killed by Hitler and therefore eligible for Israeli citizenship under the law of Return in Israel....I guess use of her maiden name Maglalang would not have helped her career. She opposes the Citizenship Clause of the 14th amendment to the US Constitution so maybe we need to accommodate her. Immediate extraordinary rendition for this enemy combatant I say!

/ sorry I just saw Wonderland with my family (yuck) and I guess my inner Queen of Hearts is coming out...

367 Bob Levin  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:12:11pm

re: #363 Effy

Thank you Effy, but someone didn't like what I said. So I'm open to better explanations. As I said, it's a long a complex story. There is also anti-Semitism on the right, which has different roots. I'm going back to 1966 when the left was actually a good friend of Israel, as Israel was truly trying to experiment with a socialism that wasn't a closet form of fascism, small scale Kibbutzim. While this was happening, Egypt's Nassar was trying to create a Pan-Arabism, that is, make all of the national boundaries (drawn artificially by the English Foreign Office), completely meaningless and unite the region under one leader, Nassar. He assembled an army of Egypt, Syria, and Jordan and made no secret of his intentions, making speech after speech of his intent to drive the Israelis into the Sea. In other words, wholesale massacre of the population.

He assembled a vast army at the border of Israel--and here's the kicker-- he asked the UN peacekeepers in the region to leave for about 3 weeks. The UN complied. Israel attacked first with quickness and precision, and won the war in 6 days, and Israel acquired territory--which, for the most part, it has returned sovereignty to the previous nation who held it. During this time, those living in the West Bank and Gaza were seen as part of the greater Arab region. The PLO, already formed before this war, wanting to liberate Haifa, Tel Aviv, any city or property owned by Jews, began to focus on this new territory.

The PLO was a terrorist organization, blowing up school buses of children, doing what terrorist organizations do. Arafat, besides his day job in Israel, went around the world training other terrorist organizations, such as the IRA and Bader-Meinhoff. So he never got out of the killing business. And yet, at this time, he was working on changing his image and strategy, separating his organization from the Nassar, Pan Arabist approach, making the Jordanians into the Palestinian People, and turning them into an oppressed minority. In 1974 he received and invitation to the UN, where he addressed the General Assembly while wearing his pistol, and received and wonderful reception. And then the transition was complete, the PLO became a cause of the Left. It has only grown in power since then--

The anti-Semitism on the right, while it still exists, is tempered by two things. One, that the left is so anti---well, this is another part of the PLO's image remake, to distinguish anti-Semitism from anti-Zionism. The UN helped this greatly, passing a resolution that Zionism is a form of racism. This little linguistic trick unleashed the torrent of Jew hatred, because now it's not racism to hate Jews, since one is hating Israel. Anyway, since part of the right mindset is to be anti-left, whatever the left celebrates, the right abhors. The other factor tempering the Antisemitism of the right is the NeoCons, many Jews formerly of the left, who decided that free markets are in fact effective, that the US has been a force for good in the world, and have argued these positions quite eloquently. Nevertheless, as NeoCons have fallen into some disfavor, the old right is making noise, and well, same old leopard.

But the bottom line is that the PLO raced to the top of hill when it came to defining themselves as oppressed victims. Magic words.

368 Bob Levin  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 1:31:41pm

re: #363 Effy

One would think that the average intelligent journalist could easily tell the difference between an open democratic and a closed authoritarian regime, between a society that only wants to live in piece in a small little piece of land that can't get much smaller and one that promotes hate and murder. Can they not see the Arabs in Kenesset, but not see the that all the Jews had to flee their homes in Arab lands?Except that the Jews were taken in to Israel, while the Arabs with their vast lands left the Palestinians in camps in order to push world opinion against Israel.

Charles is the expert in how the PLO, Hamas, and Hezbollah handle the press. I'll just say, that whatever information that comes out of Southern Lebanon, Gaza, and the West Bank is carefully monitored.

369 Effy  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 2:58:02pm

re: #367 Bob Levin

The anti-Semitism on the right, while it still exists, is tempered by two things. One, that the left is so anti---well, this is another part of the PLO's image remake, to distinguish anti-Semitism from anti-Zionism. The UN helped this greatly, passing a resolution that Zionism is a form of racism. This little linguistic trick unleashed the torrent of Jew hatred, because now it's not racism to hate Jews, since one is hating Israel. Anyway, since part of the right mindset is to be anti-left, whatever the left celebrates, the right abhors. The other factor tempering the Antisemitism of the right is the NeoCons, many Jews formerly of the left, who decided that free markets are in fact effective, that the US has been a force for good in the world, and have argued these positions quite eloquently. Nevertheless, as NeoCons have fallen into some disfavor, the old right is making noise, and well, same old leopard.

But the bottom line is that the PLO raced to the top of hill when it came to defining themselves as oppressed victims. Magic words.


Gee, 6 million killed put, and the Jews only got to be the oppressed victims until 1967. One would think all those bus and pizza shop bombings would have gotten them back on the victim list, but no deal. I remember a very old song on "National Brotherhood Week" which went something like:

Oh, the Black people hate the white people
And the white people hate the black people
The poor people hate the rich people
And the rich people hate the poor people
The Catholics hate the Protestants
And the Protestants hate the Catholics
Etc....
And everybody hates the Jews!

370 dschlussel  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 3:29:46pm

Charles:
Sadly, this isn't the first time Malkin has shown her anti-Semitic side. She linked to an equally vicious anti-Israel, and openly anti-Semitic VDare article back in October, and don't forget her tirades against the AIPAC lobbyists, etc. When she linked to the VDare article in October, I e-mailed her and the cowardess didn't respond (though she did react by removing me from her blogroll and banning me from commenting). This is what I wrote her then (and BTW, the "buzzworthy" items are not RSS, but articles she's read and chooses to promote):

From: Debbie Schlussel
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 3:10 AM
To: 'writemalkin@gmail.com'; 'malkinblog@gmail.com'
Subject: MICHELLE, So Great that U Promote Anti-Semitic Article . . .

. . . on your buzzworthy sidebar.

[Link: www.vdare.com...]

I know you don’t really care about Muslim anti-Semitic death threats (thus, your friendship and support of Emily Zanotti and Sam Adams Alliance, which condoned Zanotti’s blog praise of Muslim death, rape and torture threats on my life and my family—after she’d been cyberstalking me and making up defamatory information against me). But linking to this horribly anti-Semitic, anti-Israel article is just sickening. Truly disgusting. Either you agree with this vile trash—which claims that Jews, among other things, are responsible for our immigration problems, that they are rich so they have special privileges like “pushing the Palestinians around,” and which mocks Israel’s right to defend itself against Iran—or you don’t read what recommend. Either way, shame on you. It would be one thing if this were the first time or a mistake, but you’ve established a history in this area—your ridiculous attacks on the two AIPAC employees against whom charges were dropped, and your praise for Israel/Jew-haters Darrell Issa, Henry Hyde, and Robert Novak.

371 Bob Levin  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 3:32:08pm

re: #369 Effy

And this brings us to the world of code words. What you see on left wing sites is pretty basic stuff. For instance, during Operation Cast Lead, the protesters in Florida were yelling for the gas chambers to be turned on again. No interpretation necessary.

For the definitive lexicon on Anti-Semitic code words, anything by Pat Buchanan or Paul Craig Roberts--who think they are adept at hiding their basic agreement with the protesters in Florida. And maybe they are adept at it, as Charles documents the mainstreaming of these guys.

372 Bob Levin  Tue, Dec 22, 2009 3:36:21pm

re: #370 dschlussel

Novack! Slowly I turned...step by step...

(Hat tip: Three Stooges)

373 Øyvind Strømmen  Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:22:34am

re: #364 gegenkritik

How surprising, gegenkritik. Not a single word on the connections between the NPD, Voorpost and the Vlaams Belang. That's understandable, of course, when you seek to pretend that the VB is something else entirely, and that I am silly to name both the NPD and the VB eurofascist.

As you probably know, de Benoist is one of several post-WWII ideologists who have had significant influence on the development of fascist theory.

This influence is not only found in the "new right" movement he helped found, but also outside of it - for instance through others employing the ideas and rhetoric of de Benoist's thinking on socalled "ethnopluralism". You don't really have to look very hard to find "ethnopluralism"-thinking in the NPD. The fact that Molau - one of the more notable Benoist-supporters in the party - has gone over to Frey's DVU and was kicked out of the NPD as recently as this fall, does not really remove the ideological impact de Benoist and other new right thinkers has had.

Anyway, I hardly disagree with you if you call the NPD Nazi, even if I think it's more approriate to speak about neo-fascism. The reason I believe neo-fascism is a better term is because using the word Nazism suggest that there's been little ideological development at all, when for instance the "new right" insistance on "ethnopluralism" is now widely used by neo-fascists around Europe.

Obviously, there are differences between different Eurofascist parties, based on national circumstances, ideological development, varying views on economic policies and many other things. Journalist Adi Schwartz described the reality quite accurately when he named his interview with Filip Dewinter "between Haider and a hard place". In that context, NPD was and still is the hard place.

Funny still, how Dewinter had a poster in his office signed by not only the NPD - but also by the former Italian neo-fascist party MSI.

Hanging on the wall of Dewinter’s office, where the interview takes place, is a large poster from the 1960s that reads: “Europe, free yourself!” The banner is signed by an organization of nationalist parties in Europe, including the Italian Socialist Movement (MSI), the neo-fascist party established by Mussolini’s supporters, and the German National Democratic Party (NPD), one of the most extreme far-right movements in Europe, which some say is really neo-Nazi. On the windowsill are several small flags of sister parties of Dewinter’s party: the party of Austrian Joerg Haider, the French National Front of Jean-Marie Le Pen and the German Republican Party. Among these parties, Mude explains, Vlaams Belang is very close to Le Pen’s party - more extreme than Haider, but more moderate than the German NPD. Mude considers it one of the most extreme, well-organized and successful movements in Europe.

[Link: www.adi-schwartz.com...]

Why do you think Dewinter had that poster on his wall?

374 Øyvind Strømmen  Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:38:36am

re: #365 gegenkritik

It's difficult to explain this for someone who has no knowledge on this subject, but I'll try: In fact, the Porajmos is the only kind of genocidal massacre that with its intentions can be compared to the Shoah, though there are differences: in Nazi-Ideology, there was a place on earth for all kind of people, may it be as slave-laborers (like the east-Europeans and Russians should have become), as vassals (like most other Europeans) or allies (like Arab-Muslims). The only exceptions were the Jews and Sinti/Romanies/Jenische, as for them, Nazi-ideology planned their total destruction, since they were seen as anti-Völker. The difference is the role that they had in Nazi-ideology: while the Jews are seen as the masterminds behind capitalism and bolshewism and serve as the objects of the pathic projections of the anti-semite, the Sinti, Romanies and Jenische were just seen as inferiors parasites of the world's status quo that is caused by the Jews.

Ah, finally we are approaching something essential.

Yes, in Nazi ideology the Jews were seen as "masterminds behind capitalism and bolshevism", and - as "parasites", "rats", "anti-Völker", that should be exterminated en masse. Nazism was special, even in light of the long and nasty history of anti-Semitism.

But the Nazis did not invent anti-Semitism, and not all variants of anti-Semitism share that many attributes with the Nazi hatred of Jews. In many cases, anti-Semitism has been exactly what you seem to believe is impossible (why? Because different standards apply?): yet another kind of xenophobia, sometimes yet another kind of murderous xenophobia. And to repeat myself:

1. There is anti-Muslim bigotry today which can be compared with anti-Semitism found amongst non-fascists in for instance Norway in 1814, or in 1914, or in 1930. You could quite literally take texts from that era, replace the word "Jews" with "Muslims" and publish them on blogs such as Gates of Vienna. No one would notice. Pointing out this obvious fact does not constitute a comparison with Nazism; because Nazi anti-semitism is not the same as all anti-Semitism, precisely in the same way that all bigotry against the Sinti do not equal the Nazi hatred against Sinti.

2. Anti-Muslim bigotry and racism can develop into mass murder; as examples from the former Yugoslavia surely illustrates. Comparing Serb texts pre-Yugoslav wars with texts published in for instance Switzerland lately is scary, to say the very least.

The reason you are so eager to avoid any comparison between anti-Islamic and anti-Jewish bigotry is perhaps that you find it rather uncomfortable to be confronted with the potential consequences of the xenophobia you find to be okay, as in your more and more obvious support for the banning of minarets in Switzerland. Applying a different standard to different groups is a nice way to try and weasel yourself out of that confrontation. But it's also somewhat ironic.

375 Øyvind Strømmen  Wed, Dec 23, 2009 11:17:47am

re: #364 gegenkritik

By the way: I am not surprised that you are a supporter of a "two state solution", since under the current circumstances it means nothing than an imminent danger for Israel.

No matter how hard you try, I am sure you are not capable of wishing the Palestinians away, so what is the alternative to a two state solution? A one state solution, where Israel includes the West Bank? A continuation of the status quo? The first would face Israel with some rather tough questions regarding national identity and democratic rights. The second does not really seem sustainable, and is extremely costly.

A two state solution will create peace overnight. Obviously, there are plenty of groups who would and are fighting against that in any way they can. But unless one proposes to use some form of ethnic cleansing to "create peace", I really don't see any alternative. If you have one, I'd love to hear it. Obama might want to hear it, too.

376 Øyvind Strømmen  Wed, Dec 23, 2009 12:55:45pm

Here's an extra juicy little fact for you. Holger Apfel - of the "Saxony-wing" of NPD is in opposition to the hardliners in the party leadership. But he has also been appointed to the strategy commission of NPD, so he's hardly an outsider. Let us wind back a few years to something he wrote in 1999:

"The Germersheimer Manifest [from 82, my note] was building on years of preparatory work by young national democrats; the ideas of the New Right had made there entry in their documents long before". (H. Apfel: Alles Große steht im Sturm, 1999).

That's a historical reality there for you. And even with the hardliners now gaining more control, ideological influence of that kind does not simply disappear overnight. Now - I might be wrong here - but isn't Olaf Rose, otherwise known as a "revisionist", still rather prominent in Saxony NPD? He is also most decidedly connected to the New Right, according to wikipedia he has also published a magazine together with de Benoist and others; though I haven't been able to find the magazine itself, so I'd take just that piece of information with a grain of salt.

Furthermore: If you want to buy books by de Benoist in German, you will find a bunch on... the NPD web store. Do you sincerely believe that the New Right-currents have disappeared entirely from the NPD during the last few months? Really? Or is this just an attempt at drawing the attention away from the fact that common ideological development have influenced those parties that I call Eurofascist - because that would sort of prove my point?

377 gegenkritik  Wed, Dec 23, 2009 5:07:38pm

re: #373 oslogin

How surprising, gegenkritik. Not a single word on the connections between the NPD, Voorpost and the Vlaams Belang.


The problem with people like you, who have no clue about Fascism and National-Socialism as well, is that they think that certain connections between political parties are a definite proof of the exactly same ideology. This was not true for the alliance between the fascist Mussolini and the Nazi Hitler and it is not true for the NPD's cooperation with certain fascist parties on a european scale.

according to wikipedia


I can't describe how much laughed. I research on this subject for a long time on an academical level and you are "countering" with misunderstood parts from Wikipedia.

Of course, there were (like Jürgen Schwab) and still are (like Jürgen Gansel) people representing certain ideas of the New Right in the NPD, but they are not only marginalized, but are propagating a different ideology than that of the Nouvelle Droite: to them, Anti-Semitism is the most important ideological element, which is not the case for many other fascist parties, e.g. pro Köln or the Republikaner.

Your "argument" that the DS-Verlag is selling books of the New Right is even more ridicoulus than the signed VB-Poster: they are selling everything that is considered to be right-wing. You will find authors in this store who hate each other and propagate totally different ideologies (not for you, since you are not able to distingush and can only operate with your stupid "eurofascism"-term).

But the Nazis did not invent anti-Semitism


No one claimed that, but you are using this strawmen for the third time now.

The problem is, that you never researched about anti-semitism and that in your ignorance you trivilaze it to some kind of xenophobia, even though it has nothing to do with xenophobia or "racism".
But as I said before: one can't discuss with (softcore) deniers of the Holocaust. Since you are so confident that the Muslims are the Jews of today and that the Swiss' ban on minarets is the pre-stage to gas-chambers, there is no fundament on which we can discuss.

378 gegenkritik  Wed, Dec 23, 2009 5:25:51pm

re: #375 oslogin

so what is the alternative to a two state solution? [...] A two state solution will create peace overnight. [...] If you have one, I'd love to hear it.


Even though I made this experience countless times, I am still stunned by the self-confidence with which people thousands of kilometers away proclaim their (final)-solution for the "mid east-conflict".

Your aggressive pushing for "peace" can only be executed with the denial of the existence of anti-semitism (by trivializing it as marginal and just some kind of xenophobia). But since you are against Israel in the name of peace, you are equipped with a pathological clear conscience that won't be disturbed by reality.

There's a very fitting sentence by Paul Spiegel, former president of the Central Council of the Jews in Germany: Behind the call for peace the murderers entrench.

To answer your question: I have no "solution" for this "conflict".
Not only because I am not so hubristic to give Jews advice what they should do, but because I am not so blind to believe that peace is possible in a world that never overcame the foundations that made Auschwitz possible.

379 Øyvind Strømmen  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:56:31am

re: #375 oslogin

A two state solution will create peace overnight.

I lost the word NOT there, which was quite essential: will NOT create peace overnight.

380 Øyvind Strømmen  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:20:55am

re: #378 gegenkritik

But since you are against Israel in the name of peace, you are equipped with a pathological clear conscience that won't be disturbed by reality.

Well, there's been plenty of polls in Israel showing support for a two state solution, and there are plenty of prominent and less prominent Israelis who do support it, too. Like me, I don't really think most of them are really too optimistic about how a Palestinian state would develop; like me, I don't think they see much alternative. Netanyahu, too, has supported a variant of the two state solution. But hey, I guess all those Israelis are just "against Israel in the name of peace".

As for my right to speak about what I think would be best for Israelis and Palestinians, well, I don't really except them to listen to me, but since I live in a free country, I'm allowed to speak my mind. Just as you do about - for instance - Iran.

Thanks for the downdings by the way. It's an honour when they're coming from you.

As for the wikipedia reference, as stated I would take that information with a grain of salt. I have found two other sources for the same information, but I suspect both are pretty hard left. As I have not found the actual magazine itself it's not something I would have put into my book, simply for the reason that I prefer solid information, and direct sources whenever possible (it's better to quote Horst Mahler or Roeland Raes than to quote someone about Mahler or Raes). The fact that nouvelle droite-thinking has influence also the NPD, however, is quite easy to demonstrate, historically and today. That you try to attack me by pointing out the recent and still on-going conflict between the hardliners and the "Realos" in the NPD is somewhat amusing.

But at least we do agree on something. Anti-Semitism is central to the NPD, definitely; this is also one of the reasons the VB have stuffed their ties to the NPD down the memory hole, although it's not that difficult to find close contacts via Voorpost, and congratulations from the Vlaams Blok to the NPD on their electoral success in the late eighties, done by people still prominent in the VB.

We also agree that both Republikaner and Pro Köln can be called fascist parties, the "other fascist parties", as you say. As I am sure you are perfectly aware of, both of them have solid and close ties with the Vlaams Belang, and with others of the parties I call Eurofascist. So: Would you say that Vlaams Belang is a fascist party? Or not?

Lastly, we both seem to consider Lipstadt's book on holocaust denialism an important work. It features a rather prominent place in my bookshelf, and was also a source for my book on Eurofascism and articles I have written about Holocaust denialism and for instance the influence of Maurice Bardeche on a number of modern-day European parties.

381 gegenkritik  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 5:56:04pm

re: #380 oslogin

Well, there's been plenty of polls in Israel showing support for a two state solution, and there are plenty of prominent and less prominent Israelis who do support it, too. [...] But hey, I guess all those Israelis are just "against Israel in the name of peace".


There's a huge difference between the political discourse in Israel and people like you that are against Israel as a sovereign Jewish nation and therefor wish a palestinian state.

Not only because the Israelis are the ones who have to face the consequences, but because of the very different motivation: while for the Israelis it is their wish for peace, for people like you its the desire to determine the fate of Jews.

And no: your typo with the missing "NOT" does not change something fundamentally.

382 gegenkritik  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 6:23:46pm

re: #380 oslogin

As for the wikipedia reference, as stated I would take that information with a grain of salt.


Why? Your work is so banal and nonscientific, it won't make a difference. By the way, if you would be a serious researcher on the subject, it wouldn't be too hard for you to get a copy of Opposition even if it has stopped being published and fusioned with Deutsche Geschichte some years ago - I know I could get one.

The fact that nouvelle droite-thinking has influence also the NPD, however, is quite easy to demonstrate, historically and today.


Since all your work is not based on actual critique of ideology but simply drawing connection-lines between parties and people and then subsume them all under the stupid term "eurofascism", you can't know about the actual ideology of the NPD. But be proud that you managed to find out that the DS-Verlag is selling de Benoist's books, that's the definite proof of the ideological orientation of the NPD (and don't worry about the fact that they also sell books which are condemning the New Right in hateful words).

But at least we do agree on something. Anti-Semitism is central to the NPD


No, we do not agree on this, since for you, Anti-Semitism is aiming on Muslims and just some kind of xenophobia and you are trivializing National-Socialism with your stupid "eurofascism"-term.

Would you say that Vlaams Belang is a fascist party?


Yes, but because I have knowledge on the subject - fascism - which you have not. For you, "(euro)fascism" is just a term to label everything considered rightwing, "rascist", "islamophobic" or xenophobic, with the ideological aim of trivializing Anti-Semitism.

Lastly, we both seem to consider Lipstadt's book on holocaust denialism an important work.


It is, but it has nothing to do with our discussion, since in her book, Lipstadt focused on classical denial of the Holocaust, not the one which she later described as soft-core denial and which you are propagating with your "Muslims are the Jews of today and Anti-Semitism is like 'Islamophobia'".

383 FrumiousFalafel  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 7:11:54pm

re: #15 Charles

Thank you Charles - you're absolutely right: that is a "disgusting" (attempted) "parallel" use of the term "Kristallnacht." One is free to say what they want about the Palestinians. And if one is inclined, one may even feel sorry for them. However to employ obvious Holocaust terminology is not only unwarranted, it's a not-so-sneaky way of equating Israelis (read: Jews) with Nazis... and that is the truly disgusting thing about it (to spell it all out).

384 FrumiousFalafel  Thu, Dec 24, 2009 7:16:13pm

re: #25 Charles

Oh my G-d! You're right! How utterly disheartening to find out that she is in fact a regular contributor to that web-zine -- oh despair! Oh sad day...

385 Øyvind Strømmen  Fri, Dec 25, 2009 5:07:34am
Yes, but because I have knowledge on the subject - fascism - which you have not. For you, "(euro)fascism" is just a term to label everything considered rightwing, "rascist", "islamophobic" or xenophobic, with the ideological aim of trivializing Anti-Semitism.

Good, we agree that Vlaams Belang is fascist. The other parties focussed on in my book is the French Front National, the MSI and some of its descendant parties in Italy (but not for instance the now closed-down Alleanza Nazionale of Fini, which did contain Eurofascist elements, but still developed ideologically in such a way that calling it Eurofascist would be highly misleading), the Swedish Nationaldemokraterna and to a certain degree also Sverigedemokraterna, the British BNP, the German NPD and the Flemish Vlaams Belang. In addition I would include several Eastern European parties, but those are not covered (much) in my book.

Now, you have obviously not read my book on Eurofascism, and it does not seem like you have actually read my comments here and elsewhere either; amazing, since we have been debating for a while now.

As I have said many times before, there is a number of populist right European parties, such as the True Finns, the Swiss People's Party (SVP), the Danish People's Party, the Dutch PVV and the Norwegian Progress Party which are surely xenophobic, but not fascist. The SVP, for instance, is conservative, nativist and isolationist - but it's not Eurofascist; something I have noted both in comments here and in articles on the topic (articles I don't really expect you to have read, since they're in Norwegian).

With the academic competence you claim to possess, one would expect you to criticise my work based on what I actually write and my opinions based on what I actually say. Instead you choose to criticise your own fairytale version of me. I'm quite used to that, and It's amusing for a while.

For instance, you seem to believe I think Anti-Semitism is focussed on Muslims, something which I have never written, never said and furthermore, something which is far from my opinion. Anti-Semitism target Jews, and the tendency to include other Semitic ethnicities in the concept is not one I agree with, and one I see serious problems with.

If you had read my actual work and my actual comments, even comments made in our recent discussion, you would have also discovered that I am not particularily fond of the term "Islamophobia", because it's a very unclear and very often misused concept. If you read certain blogs - for instance - you could get the impression that criticizing Wahhabism or opposing radical Islamist is Islamophobia, and that renders the term rather useless.

The fact that you have not read my work is also painfully clear from your claim that I only point out the connections between different groups (which is of course of great importance; as it shows the close ideological bond between them).

I have also have written quite extensively on the shared ideological background for Eurofascist parties, including - but far from limited to - the influence of nouvelle droite-thinking (found also in the NPD, but more so and more directly so in REP and DVU). And I'm not the only one, these ideological influences are quite solidly described in a long list of articles written by anti-fascists, in Verfassungsschutz-reports and in academic works. While the NPD is not a NR-party, the ideological influence is clear, in spite of the early NR-movement in Germany being highly critical of the NPD.

In addition to the ideological influence, found in concepts such as "Ethnopluralism" and in adaptation of the Gramscian idea of winning hegemony, as adapted by the Benoist, several rather notable NPD members have been directly and closely involved with the NR-movement; far from limited to Molau.

386 Øyvind Strømmen  Fri, Dec 25, 2009 5:13:30am

To summarise, I believe it's better to call the NPD "neo-fascist" than "Nazi" . The most important reason is that the latter term in my eyes suggest, even when neo is added in front of it, a more static ideology and overlooks the ideological development and influence from fascist thinkers outside of Nazism.

This is risky, as the NPD might develop further - as other European fascist parties have - abandoning the open Nazi ties, the open holocaust denialism, etc, while remaining fascist. From other countries, it is clear that such a political party stands a much better chance at gaining electoral success, in the way for instance Vlaams Belang has managed.

387 Øyvind Strømmen  Fri, Dec 25, 2009 7:17:51am

Deborah Lipstadt does speak of "soft-core denialism", for instance the comparison of the Holocaust with Israeli policies. In an interview published on jcpa.org, she notes for instance: "What is not permitted is false historical analysis and the use of immoral equivalencies. One cannot compare the 2002 Jenin battle to the Shoah. Such a comparison shows either ignorance of history or misguided intentions."

Here, I am 100% in agreement with Lipstadt, who - unsurprisingly - also says that criticism against Israel is as legitimate as against any other country. That is quite a central point: as both critics of Israel and supporters of Israel have a tendency to single out Israel.

Many on the Norwegian left, at least, have a tendency to demonise Israel and applying standards to Israel that they do not apply to any other state. As Bob Levin states in a comment above, "that is where the anti-Semitic swamp begins to lap at one's feet". Amongst Israel's supporters (in Norway, at least) there is - on the other hand - a tendency to define Israel and criticism of Israel as something unique, equalising it with anti-Semitism even when it is not. I can remember an example where a Norwegian Christian weekly attacked an Israeli (and Jewish) artist for being an anti-Semite based on a work he had done criticising Israeli politics.

In the same interview, Lipstadt also notes something else:

"My own position on the uniqueness of the Holocaust has changed somewhat in recent years. I used to be a purist, considering it unique; but I now think that one errs by arguing that stand too strongly. There are other situations with some elements similar to those of the Holocaust."

She goes on by saying that a comparison between South African apartheid and Nazi attitudes towards the Jews is doable, if one stops the comparison at 1939, saying "the true uniqueness of the Holocaust starts only after 1941, with the Nazi implementation of a systematic plan of murder".

Furthermore, Lipstadt notes that "while there is no example of a situation that comprises all elements of the Holocaust, we can still use the Armenian genocide as a comparative tool. Likewise there are places in Bosnia where one may conduct a similar analysis, as that too included some elements of genocide."

Once again, I am in agreement with Lipstadt, although I would be very reluctant to compare South Africa and Nazi Germany, even pre-1939.

What I have noted is that it is possible to compare anti-Semitism with anti-Islamic bigotry; while I have also repeatedly noted that to compare Nazism with today's anti-Islamic bigotry is nonsense. I have repeated this several times in our discussion, too, but apparently you are quite uncapable of reading, so let me repeat in once more, with the words of an article I wrote in Norwegian:

Some people on the Left and amongst Liberals are eager to compare xenophobic rhetorics of today with Nazism. This makes me wonder how well these people have studied fascism pre-1945.

If you want to call my comparison of anti-Semitism amongst Norwegian non-fascists in 1814, 1914 or 1930, softcore denialism, by all means, feel free to do so. It's stupid, and pretty much a distortion of what Lipstadt refers to.

388 Øyvind Strømmen  Fri, Dec 25, 2009 7:40:26am

I don't think it would be impossible for me to get hold of "Opposition" if I did an effort, but I don't have it, so I'll have to rely on sources such as Verfassungsschutz-reports and a wide range of articles where Rose's involvement is mentioned.

As you claim that "Deutsche Geschichte" has merged with "Opposition", you probably are also aware of Rose's involvement with the former. The point here is that Olaf Rose is one of the NPD-people who has been directly involved with the new right, and that he is not the only one. As for your claims that my work is banal and anti-scientific, I could not really be bothered, as your other comments has made it abundantly clear that you have not read it.

389 gegenkritik  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 5:54:13pm

re: #385 oslogin

Good, we agree that Vlaams Belang is fascist.


Again, no: I consider VB as fascist since I have an idea of this subject while you are labeling them as "eurofascist".

Now, you have obviously not read my book on Eurofascism


Why should I? I've read (had to read) enough crappy books about fascism and what I read on your website and in your comments here is not really promising a worthwile lecture. It's not just the using of this stupid word "eurofascism" and not just the incredible BS about the NPD being not a Nazi-party but being committed to the NR (which is so totally wrong, as if Olaf Rose is an influential member of the NPD, and even he is not a classical NR in the way of de Benoist), but mainly the trivialization of Anti-semitism by inplicating that Muslims are the Jews of today, which prevents me from reading your book.

390 gegenkritik  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 6:14:57pm

re: #387 oslogin

In the same interview, Lipstadt also notes something else:


Even if she might regressed in recent years (I haven't read the interview), it does not derogate her former work and her point of softcore-denial of the Holocaust is still true for people who claim that Muslims are the Jews of today and that after a ban for minarets the next ideological step are gas-chambers.

that criticism against Israel is as legitimate as against any other country.

There's a difference between you and Lipstadt stating this: It has some tragic, but still sympathetic note when Lipstadt says that criticism against Israel is as legitimate as against any other country, as this is her wishful thinking, that Israel is a country like any other, it is the necessary false consciousness which makes life easier for someone being threatened by Anti-Semitism.
It is wrong, though: Israel is not a country like any other, but a device of self-defense of its people against their destruction. People who are negating this fact, are at least the willingful helpers of the murderers.

Whoever critizes Israel - assuming that the critique is not already anti-semitic in its form, like comparing Israel to Hamas or the Nazis and so on - can only critizise the force of the civil national-state, something which is characteristical for every national-state (e.g., you'll find cases of police-violence everywhere in the world, as well as discrimination). The question is, why then Israel should be critizised for something all other states are doing as well. Whoever wants to critizise the consequences of national-state socialisation - and I think this is very important - should ask himself why to execute this critique against the only state in the world that as a self-defense of his people has a definite legitimacy.
There are nearly 200 objects in the world that would better fit for such a critique.


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