Obama Health Care Town Hall Meeting

Politics • Views: 4,490

Barack Obama’s town hall meeting on health care is going to start soon. Here’s a thread to discuss it. If you had the chance to ask Obama a question about his health care plan, what would it be?

Apparently the people at this meeting were not pre-screened. With the current atmosphere, I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to see some Code Pink-like behavior.

UPDATE at 8/11/09 11:07:29 am:

Remember this quote, repeated several times by Obama:

“I won’t sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit.”

Jump to bottom

1240 comments
1 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:06:01am

I have to give him credit for stepping into fire. He is going to get an earful.

2 pat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:06:02am

Sock puppets

3 Gang of One  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:06:18am

I hear ths is by invitation only ... no dissidents.

4 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:06:25am

Mr. President, will members of Congress and to a larger extent ALL government employees be enrolled in this plan or will the current TRICARE plan that covers federal workers be maintained?

5 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:06:39am

new room, nice.

6 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:06:39am

I have a question for Obama... have you ever thought anything through completely?

7 JacksonTn  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:06:58am

What is your relationship with SEIU? and when did it begin? ... what is their involvement with the writing of the healthcare bill and will their members be exempt from certain aspects of the bill that others will not ...

/that is what I would like him to address ... among other things

8 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:07:04am

Will I pay a penalty for not having insurance?

9 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:07:15am

re: #4 Jetpilot1101

Mr. President, will members of Congress and to a larger extent ALL government employees be enrolled in this plan or will the current TRICARE plan that covers federal workers be maintained?


I believe Tricare is for military retirees jet

10 Syrah  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:07:21am

How about "Have you read the bill?"

11 Karagush  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:07:22am

how do we know the attendees are not screened? whose word do we take for this?

12 JohnnyReb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:07:33am

I would ask why they are doing this now when Medicare is due to be bankrupt by 2017, and what is the Fed doing to address that.

13 Gang of One  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:07:58am

re: #6 MrSilverDragon

I have a question for Obama ... will you opt in or out of your plan?

14 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:08:09am

re: #11 Karagush

how do we know the attendees are not screened? whose word do we take for this?


read somewhere this morning 70% were lottery assigned

15 JohnnyReb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:08:24am

re: #9 apachegunner

I believe Tricare is for military retirees jet


All military active and retired.

16 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:08:33am

My question (similar to others posted) is:
"Would you commit yourself and your family to use the healthcare system you are proposing, and nothing else?"

17 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:08:34am

re: #9 apachegunner

I believe Tricare is for military retirees jet

I am active duty military and I have TRICARE. TRICARE for LIFE covers military retirees.

18 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:08:47am

re: #15 JohnnyReb

All military active and retired.


correct, only those

19 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:09:05am

I disagree, I think most conservatives respect the office if not the man and will be civil.

20 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:09:06am

re: #17 Jetpilot1101

I am active duty military and I have TRICARE. TRICARE for LIFE covers military retirees.


as I said

21 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:09:13am

re: #15 JohnnyReb

All military active and retired.

Triwest Healthcare Alliance...one of my customers! Based right here in Phoenix, AZ

22 JohnAdams  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:09:18am

I just read on another site about an elderly couple, both Democrats, who received an invitation. It would be completely out of the their usual M.O. for this administration not to completely stack the deck.

23 JohnnyReb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:09:25am

re: #18 apachegunner

correct, only those

Oh and us retired people have to pay for it also.

24 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:09:29am

Mark Steyn has it right...it's about government get over the river so they can burn the bridge...

n the normal course of events, the process takes a while. But Obama believes in “the fierce urgency of now”, and fierce it is. That’s where all the poor befuddled sober centrists who can’t understand why the Democrats keep passing incoherent 1,200-page bills every week are missing the point. If “health care” were about health care, the devil would be in the details. But it’s not about health or costs or coverage; it’s about getting over the river and burning the bridge. It doesn’t matter what form of governmentalized health care gets passed as long as it passes. Once it’s in place, it will be “reformed”, endlessly, but it will never be undone. Same with a lot of the other stuff: Keep throwing the spaghetti at the wall. The Republicans may pick off the odd strand but, if you keep it coming fast enough, by the end of Obama’s first year the wall will be a great writhing mass of pasta entwined like copulating anacondas in some jungle simulacrum of Hef’s grotto. And that’s a good image of how government will slither into every corner of your life: You can try and pull one of those spaghetti strings out but it’ll be all tied up with a hundred others and you’ll never untangle them.

25 CIA Reject  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:10:08am

My question:

"Is everything still George Bush's fault?"

26 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:10:27am

re: #11 Karagush

how do we know the attendees are not screened? whose word do we take for this?

You don't trust the Word of the One?

27 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:10:30am

re: #17 Jetpilot1101

I am active duty military and I have TRICARE. TRICARE for LIFE covers military retirees.

And under Obama, it will be Try-to-get-care
/

28 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:10:43am

I thought that the questions had to be submitted prior to the event.
I couuld have it cofused with another event.
I would ask, "Mr. President, you said that I can keep my health coverage if I want. How can I do that if my employer opts into the Public Plan for lower premiums?

29 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:10:50am

I would simply ask, "What's the rush?"

30 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:10:57am

re: #14 apachegunner

read somewhere this morning 70% were lottery assigned

Yeah, but who got those lottery tickets in the first place?

31 Spider Mensch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:11:12am

my question..Why the big rush??? The fate of mankind itself does not, as you portray it, lie with the passage of this bill? Honestly, why the big push?

32 Gang of One  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:11:15am

re: #25 CIA Reject

My question:

"Is everything still George Bush's fault?"

Yes, of course.
///LLL

33 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:11:22am

No way this empty suit faces a non-screened audience.

34 RedDish  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:11:24am

re: #11 Karagush

Here's the link I found:
[Link: www.theunionleader.com...]

So they had to cross check through the White House. Probably with the 'fishy' site?

35 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:11:27am

re: #30 JamesTKirk

Yeah, but who got those lottery tickets in the first place?

good question

36 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:11:32am
37 Simple Voice  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:11:34am

Not pre-screened is the biggest lie of the year.

38 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:11:35am

re: #24 DistantThunder

Mark Steyn has it right...it's about government get over the river so they can burn the bridge...

n the normal course of events, the process takes a while. But Obama believes in “the fierce urgency of now”, and fierce it is. That’s where all the poor befuddled sober centrists who can’t understand why the Democrats keep passing incoherent 1,200-page bills every week are missing the point. If “health care” were about health care, the devil would be in the details. But it’s not about health or costs or coverage; it’s about getting over the river and burning the bridge. It doesn’t matter what form of governmentalized health care gets passed as long as it passes. Once it’s in place, it will be “reformed”, endlessly, but it will never be undone. Same with a lot of the other stuff: Keep throwing the spaghetti at the wall. The Republicans may pick off the odd strand but, if you keep it coming fast enough, by the end of Obama’s first year the wall will be a great writhing mass of pasta entwined like copulating anacondas in some jungle simulacrum of Hef’s grotto. And that’s a good image of how government will slither into every corner of your life: You can try and pull one of those spaghetti strings out but it’ll be all tied up with a hundred others and you’ll never untangle them.

You mean Obama is a follower of the Giant Spaghetti Monster?

39 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:11:37am

500,000 families got tax cuts from the stimulus? Prove it.

40 Spider Mensch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:11:55am

re: #29 Desert Dog

I would simply ask, "What's the rush?"

gmta

41 nightlight  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:12:01am

We provided this that and the other thing... No Obama... the TAXPAYERS provided it. It wasn't free.

42 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:12:09am

re: #36 buzzsawmonkey

There's a Limbaugh joke there somewhere.

I did not even think about that one...ha ha/

Ok, "Why so hasty, Mr. President?"

43 RajaBabu  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:12:37am

President Obama-
You say you want everyone to be insured and taken care of by our health
care system -possibly up to 50 million new patients, with the same number
of doctors we have now. How are you going to pile on this many new
people onto the system without having to ration care?

44 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:12:39am

Question: given that our current system insures roughly 90% of the population adequately, why is it necessary to throw this system away and replace it with a government-run system?

Related: Why will a government-run system be better, when current government-run health care systems - Medicare, Medicaid, the VA hospital system - are plagued by massive deficits and poor delivery of services to members?

45 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:12:45am

re: #39 midwestgak

500,000 families got tax cuts from the stimulus? Prove it.


hey! nobama wouldn't lie would he?///

46 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:12:53am

re: #42 Desert Dog

I did not even think about that one...ha ha/

Ok, "Why so hasty, Mr. President?"

"Why so serious?"

47 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:13:04am

How do we know the audience wasn't pre-screened? He said so?

48 RedDish  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:13:05am

Members of the public who want to attend must register through the White House Web site. A selected number of people will be contacted after registration closes at 3 p.m. on Saturday.

That's the money quote from the article referenced above.

49 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:13:10am

Some Q's from me.

The polls show that the American people do no want this. Yet you insist we need your type of "reform". Why?

Your past statements clearly show you want a single payer system. You even noted that it could take time/steps to get there, but, that single payer is your ultimate goal. You are now distancing yourself from those clear statements. Why should we believe you?

50 gdalpert  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:13:11am

You'll know by the questions that are asked. If they're all softballs, we'll know the WH is lying. If they are honest, hardball questions, we'll know they were telling the truth.

Hopefully, everyone will be respectful, and there can be an honest exchange.

51 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:13:13am
52 Lincolntf  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:13:16am

re: #34 RedDish

...President Jimmy Carter also visited Portsmouth High, in the 1970s, Collins said.

How appropriate.

53 JohnAdams  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:13:24am

I would allow the Prez the point that ensuring people have basic health care is tantamount, but then I would point out the mega-trillions of dollars being spent on other entitlement programs we can't pay for. I'd ask him which entitlements is he going to cut to pay for this new one.

54 Pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:13:25am

Mr. President, you said this in the past...

"I'm going to have all the negotiations around a big table. We'll have doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. Insurance companies, drug companies -- they'll get a seat at the table, they just won't be able to buy every chair. But what we will do is, we'll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies. And so, that approach, I think is what is going to allow people to stay involved in this process."

Why did you lie to the American people? Also, given your commitment to be outside of corporate influence, what impression do you think is left on Americans when Big Pharma is spending 150 million to promote Obamacare which is more than John McCain spent campaigning last year?

55 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:13:28am

do not want this.

56 CIA Reject  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:13:49am

re: #32 Gang of One

My follow-up question:

Is there a reward for turning in people who spread "disinformation" on the administration's health insurance policy?

///'Cause if there is I'm turning the lot of you in!

57 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:13:51am
Apparently the people at this meeting were not pre-screened.

I'll believe it when I see it... I'm patiently awaiting the Q&A.

If you had the chance to ask Obama a question about his health care plan, what would it be?

Rather than creating a government bureaucracy to control our health care, wouldn't it be better and cheaper to just have government pay to enroll individuals into the private insurance option of their choice?

58 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:14:08am

re: #52 Lincolntf

...President Jimmy Carter also visited Portsmouth High, in the 1970s, Collins said.

How appropriate.

It's deju-vu all over again

59 billbrent  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:14:09am

From [Link: tinyurl.com...]
1. The government has been "reforming" health-care for sixty years—tax breaks for employer-provided health-insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, encouraging HMOs and managed care, and government health-insurance at the state level in Massachusetts, Maine, and Oregon. Government health-care has expanded until it is now more than 50% of all health-care spending. Yet after sixty years of government "reform," the problems with health-care are just getting worse. So why should we believe that even more government is the solution?

2. President Obama keeps telling us that he's not trying to get rid of private health insurance. But the bill being debated in Congress would require all new insurance policies to be offered through a government-run exchange, in which the rates that can be charged and the coverage that has to be provided will be dictated by the government's so-called "Health Choices Commissioner." Employer-provided health-insurance will fall under the same regulations in five years. How is this insurance going to be "private" if the government controls everything about it?

3. A video on YouTube shows Barack Obama back in 2003—only six years ago—saying that he is in favor of a "single payer" system. The "single payer" is government, so this means he was in favor of socialized medicine. And just a few weeks ago, Barney Frank—one of the Democratic leaders in the House—said that he considers the current bill a step toward "single payer." So when Obama and the Democrats tell us this bill won't lead to a government takeover of health-care, why should we believe them?

4. Medicare is broke. Social Security is broke. Federal tax receipts are falling, and Congress has already voted on trillions of dollars of stimulus and bailouts in the last year. The national credit card is maxed out. So how can you justify voting for a bill that will require even more money that we don't have?

5. The health-care bill that is being discussed includes huge taxes on businesses to force them to provide more health insurance for their employees, as well as a whole set of mandates telling health insurance companies who they have to cover and what they have to cover them for. This is an enormous increase of costs for businesses and insurers. Have you considered how they're going to pay for all of this, or whether they will even be able to pay for it? How many of these companies will go out of business or lay off more workers after the government forcibly increases their expenses?

60 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:14:13am

Economy that works for everybody, not just some people.

So why did only New Hamphire families get the tax cuts?

61 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:14:16am

re: #50 gdalpert

You'll know by the questions that are asked. If they're all softballs, we'll know the WH is lying. If they are honest, hardball questions, we'll know they were telling the truth.

Hopefully, everyone will be respectful, and there can be an honest exchange.


OK, lets hear the first question

62 nightlight  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:14:36am

Here we go with the 46 million uninsured.

Next he'll be telling us the WHO ranks us at 37

63 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:15:10am

We have NJ state health insurance and have already had to go BLACK MARKET by calling a friend 5 states away, who is a Doctor, to call in a prescription for us. We couldn't wait for the "next available appointment" in November.

64 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:15:15am

The audience was pre-screamed?
Auditions?

... uh ... oh, never mind

65 Guanxi88  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:15:25am

re: #62 nightlight

Next he'll be telling us the WHO ranks us at 37

Classic rock thread, already?

66 Karagush  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:15:34am

re: #26 JamesTKirk

im afraid not. Even with a lottery if you stuff enough "friendlies" names in the fishbowl you will still get a friendly audience. NO matter how randomly you pull out names. Thats why people try to buy lots of lottery tickets. To stuff the bowl.

color me unimpressed by their efforts to be "fair."

67 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:15:49am

re: #62 nightlight

Next he'll be telling us the WHO ranks us at 37

Well, I won't be fooled again.

68 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:15:53am

re: #10 Syrah

How about "Have you read the bill?"

Oh no, not another reference to his paygrade.

69 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:15:53am

re: #57 NukeAtomrod

Rather than creating a government bureaucracy to control our health care, wouldn't it be better and cheaper to just have government pay to enroll individuals into the private insurance option of their choice?

That is kind of the point... the government isn't actually taking over private insurance. They're creating a public insurance plan to be administered by private health care companies.

70 CIA Reject  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:16:03am

BBL

71 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:16:03am

re: #48 RedDish

Members of the public who want to attend must register through the White House Web site. A selected number of people will be contacted after registration closes at 3 p.m. on Saturday.

That's the money quote from the article referenced above.

So much for people who aren't into the Internet and those who work on a week day.

72 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:16:09am

Mr. President: With all due respect, sir, why should the American taxpayers, YOUR consituency, be forced to pay to provide health care privileges for all? What tangible benefit will this provide for a dumpy white male, such as myself, that would give me an incentive to support your plan?

73 billbrent  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:16:10am

from: [Link: tinyurl.com...]
6. One of the main demands of the health-care bill is that insurers are required to cover people with "pre-existing conditions." That's like getting insurance on your car after you crash it. It's just a way of getting someone to bail you out for something that has already happened. This isn't insurance, it's a handout. So doesn't that mean that the rest of us will have to pay more for our insurance to absorb the cost of those handouts?

7. The health-care bill will mandate what costs insurance companies have to cover. For example, they will have to pay for routine check-ups and physicals, or they will have to provide every woman with maternity coverage. But what if you don't want to pay for that extra coverage? Right now, if you're young and healthy and don't need frequent check-ups, you can save money with a high-deductible insurance that doesn't cover them. Or if you don't want children, or already have children, you can save money by dropping the maternity rider on your policy. By taking those choices away from us, won't this bill actually make our insurance more expensive, not less?

8. A lot of people have been upset about Congress passing bills that they haven't had time to read—and they haven't even finished writing the health-care bill yet. But what I want to know is, with a bill this big and complex, have you taken the time to read it and understand it? Can you really say that anyone has had the time to figure out how all the parts will work together and what all of the consequences will be? With a bill this big, is it even possible to figure out all of that and really know what you're voting for?

9. President Obama and the Democratic leadership are making us a lot of promises about what we will get and what we won't get from this health-care bill. But what is or isn't in this one particular bill is not the end of the story. For example, how many times has Medicare changed over the last forty years? As more and more of us become dependent on the government for our health-care coverage, won't we have to worry about what some future Congress or some future bureaucrat will decide to cover or not cover?

10. The defenders of the health-care bill claim that it's going to lead to all sorts of savings, not by actually cutting any services or denying care, but just by finding "inefficiencies" that will save money. Do you think this is remotely plausible? When has anybody ever said, "This project has to be lean and efficient—let's get the government do it"?

74 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:16:10am

My question would be:

Dear Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler Obama, I'm not sure how this would affect your children, but how about you, your family and your hired goons from the unions (the ones stacking the audience here today) doing a test case where you accept your plan for a five-year period. Then report back to us and tell us how it went and maybe we'll consider be hered into your socialist utopian scheme.

How about it?

75 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:16:29am

It's a friggin Pep Rally...Town meeting my a**

76 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:16:41am

re: #72 thedopefishlives

Mr. President: With all due respect, sir, why should the American taxpayers, YOUR consituency, be forced to pay to provide health care privileges for all? What tangible benefit will this provide for a dumpy white male, such as myself, that would give me an incentive to support your plan?

You are already paying for it with your insurance premiums that are growing 15% a year. Next question.

77 Gang of One  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:16:55am

re: #57 NukeAtomrod

Rather than creating a government bureaucracy to control our health care, wouldn't it be better and cheaper to just have government pay to enroll individuals into the private insurance option of their choice?

When private insurance is outlawed, only outlaws will have private insurance.

78 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:16:58am

re: #48 RedDish

Members of the public who want to attend must register through the White House Web site. A selected number of people will be contacted after registration closes at 3 p.m. on Saturday.

That's the money quote from the article referenced above.

I wonder if those e-addies were compared to the list Douglass' office has recieved at the flag address.

79 Last Mohican  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:16:58am

I feel a little ill about even linking to Fox News anymore, but here is their story about who's invited to the meeting.

About 1,800 people are expected for that midday event in the Democratic-leaning Seacoast region of the Granite State. Of those, 70 percent were given tickets based on a random lottery -- a potentially dicey crowd in a state known for its grass-roots political activism...

Outside, a dozen grass-roots organizations plan a counter rally.

"We are against the blind-faith, fast-tracking approach being advocated by special-interest supporters of the bill, congressional representatives, as well as the president," said George Lovejoy, a former state senator and chairman of the New Hampshire Advantage Coalition.

In an e-mail to Obama supporters in New Hampshire, an aide invited supporters to counter the counter-protesters and called them organized by "Washington insiders, insurance companies and well-financed special interests who don't go a day without spreading lies and stirring up fear."

While I support the right of pro-Obamacare demonstrators to come and have their voices heard, I find that last email to be rather insulting, inappropriate, and over the line.

80 nightlight  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:17:11am

Speaking of the WHO ranking US at 37. Cuba is ranked at 39 and they don't even have enough toilet paper. We are only 2 points ahead. Imagine!

81 billbrent  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:17:14am

from: [Link: tinyurl.com...]

11. One of the ways that has been proposed for government-provided health insurance to save money is by substituting Medicare reimbursement rates for market rates when paying doctors and hospitals. But many private hospitals and medical practices have said that if they have to accept these lower rates, they can't cover their expenses, and they will go out of business. So doesn't this bill guarantee an immediate shortage of doctors and medical services?

12. Medicare cuts costs by paying lower rates to doctors and hospitals, who then shift these costs to those of us with private health insurance, who get charged higher rates. But if the government takes over and starts dictating Medicare reimbursement rates for everyone, who will the costs get shifted to then?

13. When the government starting portraying people in the financial industry as villains and started limiting their pay and subjecting them to more regulations, banks reported a "brain drain" as smart and well-educated people left the industry or went overseas looking for better pay and less stress. But the term "brain drain" was originally coined in the 1960s when doctors and medical researchers left Britain to escape socialized medicine. Aren't you afraid we might see the same kind of brain drain from the medical profession here in America?

14. Do you know the meaning and significance of the term "quality adjusted life year"? (For this question, you will need the answer, which you can supply if your congressman is forced to admit that he doesn't know it—preferable after some stammering and a long, awkward pause. "Quality adjusted life year" is a term used under socialized medicine to determine whether elderly patients are allowed to get expensive drugs or treatments, depending on some bureaucrat's calculation of how many good years they have left. You should ask your congressman: Can you assure us that the same thing won't happen here?)

15. One of the proposals for how the government is going to save money is that it's going to have a panel of medical experts who will dictate from Washington, DC, what the proper medical practices are that should be paid for, and what practices are supposedly "wasteful" and "unnecessary." Won't this mean interfering with decisions that would normally be made by me and my doctor? And won't this discourage innovation by requiring any new idea to get approved by a board of establishment "experts" before a doctor can even try it out?

82 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:17:23am

I don't remember him saying anything about his mother's healthcare insurance during the campaign. Anyone else?

83 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:17:32am

re: #74 JammieWearingFool

My question would be:

Dear Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler Obama, I'm not sure how this would affect your children, but how about you, your family and your hired goons from the unions (the ones stacking the audience here today) doing a test case where you accept your plan for a five-year period. Then report back to us and tell us how it went and maybe we'll consider be hered into your socialist utopian scheme.

How about it?

Government employees are already under the Federal healthcare plan. Obama has "socialized" medicine right now. So does every member of Congress.

84 spudly  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:17:41am

I'd ask him to explain why our system is so "broken" when our cancer statistics (mortality over incidence) clearly show we are superior to the countries with socialized systems (actually, all other systems, period)?

I'd add that he shouldn't change the subject to things like average lifespan which is not an unconfounded indicator of quality of care (cancer incidence vs mortality is entirely quality of care driven since lack of care is very likely fatal (eventually)).

85 Lincolntf  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:17:42am

The first question (whether from a Dem or a Repub.) asked of Obama should be "Have you now read the entire bill?".
Half the bloggers in the country have read hundreds of pages of it and yet he seems to still be talking about an entirely different piece of legislation.

86 JPL17  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:17:55am

Is it true that the pending health care bills would allow private employers to drop their private health plans and force their employees into the so-called "public option," by simply paying a penalty that's substantially less than the insurance premiums they'd otherwise have to pay; and if so, how many employees currently covered by private insurance does the Administration project will be forced into the "public option" within the first 2 years after the legislation becomes effective?

87 Tricky Dick  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:17:59am

I saw Obama being questioned yesterday on one of the main stream media channels about immigration reform he said" I've got a lot on my plate right now and I don't want all these programs to crash at once". It was a wonderful freudian slip.

88 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:18:05am

Ugh, I don't know if I can watch.

89 rjbjrirish  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:18:05am

Why should we believe you when you say you don't want a government-only health plan, when you told union supporters in 2003 and 2007 that you wanted it?

90 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:18:12am

re: #86 JPL17

Is it true that the pending health care bills would allow private employers to drop their private health plans and force their employees into the so-called "public option," by simply paying a penalty that's substantially less than the insurance premiums they'd otherwise have to pay; and if so, how many employees currently covered by private insurance does the Administration project will be forced into the "public option" within the first 2 years after the legislation becomes effective?

Great question.

91 RedDish  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:18:13am

re: #71 MandyManners

Someone at another site mentioned the 'window' for the White House registration was less than 12 hours.

92 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:18:19am

re: #76 drcordell

You are already paying for it with your insurance premiums that are growing 15% a year. Next question.


I am with the federal blue cross/shield and my premiums haven't grown 15% a year. Never.

93 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:18:25am

re: #62 nightlight

Here we go with the 46 million uninsured.

Next he'll be telling us the WHO ranks us at 37

Does that included illegal aliens?

94 billbrent  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:18:39am

from: [Link: tinyurl.com...]

16. Government-run health-care is not some new, untested idea. In Britain, it has led to a "postcode lottery," where the medical procedures you are allow to get depend on where you live. In Canada, it has led to a shortage of doctors and waiting lists for major surgeries. In America, Medicare ended up costing far, far morethan anyone expected. Massachusetts and Maine spent enormous amounts of money to extend government coverage to very few people. The Oregon Health Plan may not cover your cancer treatment—but it will cover assisted suicide. Given all of this experience, what makes you think that somehow this will be the exception that will avoid all of the problems that government health-care has always led to?

17. Why does "reform" always mean more government? Are you aware of proposals that have been put forward for free-market reforms of health care? Congress has already approved Health Savings Accounts, where individuals buy their own high-deductible health insurance and save money tax-free, which they can use for their out-of-pocket health-care expenses. This gives people more control over their spending on routine medical treatments while keeping them covered for a serious illness, and it allows them to keep their health insurance if they change jobs. But this program has been limited in size. Are you open to ideas like this, for free-market reform of health-care?

18. A lot of doctors say that medical malpractice insurance is what is really driving up health-care costs. Doctors have to charge more to cover their expenses, and they also have to practice "defensive medicine," ordering unnecessary extra tests just to make sure they can defend themselves in court if something goes wrong. So why isn't tort reform—for example, limiting excessive jury awards in malpractice lawsuits—being considered as part of health-care reform?

19. What part of your decision on this bill, if any, is affected by a consideration for liberty, individual rights, and the Constitution? Would you consider opposing this bill for no other reason than because it gives more power to government at the expense of the freedom and property rights of private businesses and individuals? Would you consider opposing it simply because it grants powers to the government that are not authorized anywhere in the Constitution?

20. Thomas Jefferson said, "A wise and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government." Notice what is not on his list: government-provided housing, or government-provided food, or government-provided health care. And Jefferson's views on the role of government were widely shared by America's Founding Fathers. So my question is: Please explain where you disagree with the vision of our Founding Fathers, and why.

95 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:18:44am

re: #92 apachegunner

I am with the federal blue cross/shield and my premiums haven't grown 15% a year. Never.

You answered your own question. FEDERAL blue cross blue shield.

96 nightlight  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:19:08am

re: #93 MandyManners

Does that included illegal aliens?

It sure does

97 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:19:12am

re: #76 drcordell

You are already paying for it with your insurance premiums that are growing 15% a year. Next question.

You have no idea how private health insurance works, do you.

98 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:19:27am
The House bill would increase the budget deficit by $239 B over the next ten years. This conflicts with the President’s goal of not increasing short-term deficits.

Ten years from now the House bill would add $65 B to the budget deficit. This conflicts with the President’s insistence that legislation must not increase the deficit in that year.

The House bill would increase long-term budget deficits by ever-increasing amounts, making our long-term debt problem worse than under current law. This of course conflicts with the President’s statements that “health care reform is entitlement reform,” and that health care reform is essential to addressing America’s long-term budget problems.

Rather than “bending the cost curve down” as the President has laudably insisted, Dr. Elmendorf said the Senate HELP Committee bill would “raise the cost curve.”

Under the House bill, in the year 2015 about 8 million uninsured Americans would remain uninsured and pay higher taxes. This would violate the President’s pledge not to raise taxes on anyone earning less than $250,000 per year.

Under the House bill, about 3 million people who now have employer-sponsored health insurance would lose that coverage because their employer drops it, violating the President’s bold promise that no one will lose the health plan they have now.

The President’s Medicare Commission proposal would probably save only $2 billion over ten years, and there is a high probability it would save no taxpayer money. In the long run the saving would be “modest.”

How is this a good idea?

99 RedDish  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:19:39am

re: #78 MandyManners

Think I'd risk a bet that there was some cross checking going on...

100 Guanxi88  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:19:45am

re: #75 Desert Dog

It's a friggin Pep Rally...Town meeting my a**

Come on, it's as authentic, spontaneous, and trustworthy as everything else we've seen thus far...

101 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:19:48am

re: #94 billbrent

a link will do...

102 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:20:03am

This whole thing about his mother and all the insurance company battling. One, is this really supposed to get better under the government? His assurances are not ringing true. Two, a point someone somewhere brought up before, and that is, why was Obama standing by watching his mother struggle with her insurance company? He wasn't capable of lending a hand?

103 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:20:04am

re: #97 thedopefishlives

You have no idea how private health insurance works, do you.

You have no idea how our healthcare system works, do you? Who do you think pays for the person who shows up in the E.R. with minor symptoms because they don't have a primary care physician. YOU DO.

104 The Curmudgeon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:20:24am

I'd have only one question: "Respectfully, sir, why don't you resign?"

105 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:20:27am

re: #88 Killgore Trout

Ugh, I don't know if I can watch.

I sure as hell ain't ... matter of fact, I'm going back into the shop and debug a prototype circuit for a client.

/time well spent

106 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:20:28am

re: #93 MandyManners

Does that included illegal aliens?

They're the ones to receive all the medical assistance being reallocated away from seniors.

107 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:20:38am

re: #69 drcordell

That is kind of the point... the government isn't actually taking over private insurance. They're creating a public insurance plan to be administered by private health care companies.

No. That isn't what their doing. It doesn't take 1000+ pages of legalize to say. American citizens will choose the private insurance they wish and the U. S. government will pay their enrollment cost.

108 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:20:51am

re: #91 RedDish

Someone at another site mentioned the 'window' for the White House registration was less than 12 hours.

And I don't blame them one bit, after what happened last week.

109 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:21:00am

re: #91 RedDish

Someone at another site mentioned the 'window' for the White House registration was less than 12 hours.

Who monitors the White House Web site that closely?

110 nightlight  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:21:00am

re: #102 Silvergirl

This whole thing about his mother and all the insurance company battling. One, is this really supposed to get better under the government? His assurances are not ringing true. Two, a point someone somewhere brought up before, and that is, why was Obama standing by watching his mother struggle with her insurance company? He wasn't capable of lending a hand?

He was already a Harvard graduate!

111 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:21:07am

re: #99 RedDish

Think I'd risk a bet that there was some cross checking going on...

Obviously; I mean, just for starters, the Secret Service would be going over the list with a fine-toothed comb.

112 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:21:16am

I want to see this speech one year after the "reform" is passed.

113 cavallino_rampante  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:21:23am

"There has been a long and vigorous debate." - BO

When was this?

114 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:21:31am

re: #95 drcordell

You answered your own question. FEDERAL blue cross blue shield.


yes and I also said the premium had never increased anywhere near 15%

115 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:21:46am

re: #19 avanti

I disagree, I think most conservatives respect the office if not the man and will be civil.

I would posit that some "conservatives" have a defined unconstrained vision and will not respect the office due to the man occupying it. Likewise, there are some "liberals" who have a rather constrained vision who will respect the office regardless of the man occupying it.

116 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:21:48am

re: #96 nightlight

It sure does

*seethe*

117 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:21:53am

re: #113 cavallino_rampante

"There has been a long and vigorous debate." - BO

When was this?

That's code for: "shut up".

118 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:21:54am

re: #104 The Curmudgeon

I'd have only one question: "Respectfully, sir, why don't you resign?"

And his answer? Without saying a single word, he'd just turn and point to Biden and Pelosi.

119 JohnnyReb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:22:00am

re: #83 drcordell

Government employees are already under the Federal healthcare plan. Obama has "socialized" medicine right now. So does every member of Congress.

That is not true. We in the federal government have about 50 choices of health insurance. The FEHB lets us pick from basic catastrophic only insurance policies to gold plated covers everything insurance. There is not only one provider in the Federal government. We have literally dozens of companies and policies to pick from.

120 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:22:10am

re: #75 Desert Dog

It's a friggin Pep Rally...Town meeting my a**

Look closer, a lot of folks in the crowd are sitting on their hands and not smiling.

121 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:22:14am

re: #99 RedDish

Think I'd risk a bet that there was some cross checking going on...

I guarantee it.

122 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:22:21am

re: #107 NukeAtomrod

No. That isn't what their doing. It doesn't take 1000+ pages of legalize to say. American citizens will choose the private insurance they wish and the U. S. government will pay their enrollment cost.

Have you read any bill that has ever been passed through Congress, under any administration. How many pages do you think the Patriot Act was, or any of Bush's 3 major tax cut bills? They're all huge and incomprehensible.

123 NYC_Mike  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:22:24am

Can the CNN coverage of this get any more biased?
Here's a blurb copied from their website at 1PM NYC time

A hostile crowd shouted questions and made angry statements today at a Pennsylvania town hall meeting on health care led by Democratic Sen. Arlen Specter. The meeting drew an overflow crowd of about 250 people, with more gathered outside to demonstrate for and against President Obama's push to expand health insurance for 46 million people without coverage while bringing down costs

I too would rather see a calm debate and feel that shouting people down is a tactic unbecoming of conservatives. That having been said - in an era where the media openly shills for the party currently in power and their agenda, some shouting and frustration seems like a fairly normal reaction. Still - we can beat this back with the facts and history.

124 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:22:28am

re: #65 Guanxi88

Classic rock thread, already?


Hi! Welcome back from where ever you were!

125 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:22:50am

re: #106 JamesTKirk

They're the ones to receive all the medical assistance being reallocated away from seniors.

*seethe*

126 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:22:54am

re: #83 drcordell

Government employees are already under the Federal healthcare plan. Obama has "socialized" medicine right now. So does every member of Congress.

They've exempted themselves from ObamaCare. They'd get to keep their cushy plan while the rest of us get shafted and burdened with this mess.

127 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:22:55am

Question I'd sak

Mr. President, will your brother, you know, the one living on $18 a year be elegible for benefits?

///

I am SO bad!

128 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:23:17am

re: #120 avanti

Look closer, a lot of folks in the crowd are sitting on their hands and not smiling.

Yep, all that clapping and cheering is very low key

129 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:23:20am

People who want to keep things the way they are will try to scare people . . .

He's right. He wants to keep himself and the Dems in power the way it is now, and that scares people.

130 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:23:50am

re: #125 MandyManners

*seethe*

You can hit me with that scepter again if it will make you feel better...

131 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:23:51am

re: #113 cavallino_rampante

"There has been a long and vigorous debate." - BO

When was this?

"Shut up."

132 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:23:52am

re: #81 billbrent


13. When the government starting portraying people in the financial industry as villains and started limiting their pay and subjecting them to more regulations, banks reported a "brain drain" as smart and well-educated people left the industry or went overseas looking for better pay and less stress. But the term "brain drain" was originally coined in the 1960s when doctors and medical researchers left Britain to escape socialized medicine. Aren't you afraid we might see the same kind of brain drain from the medical profession here in America?


They have nowhere to go.
What country without socialized medicine is big enough and rich enough to support them?

133 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:23:58am

re: #108 Charles

And I don't blame them one bit, after what happened last week.

12 hours is more than enough time to saturate the office with requests several orders of magnitude beyond what can reasonably be accommodated. I'm not seeing the problem with this constraint.

134 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:23:58am

Obama's beef about his mother's health care was all those forms and paperwork. I wonder if Obama has any similar sympathy for those of us with IRS forms and paperwork, which I guarantee are much much worse on average.

135 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:24:12am

re: #127 sattv4u2

Question I'd sak

Mr. President, will your brother, you know, the one living on $18 a year be elegible for benefits?

///

I am SO bad!

Get your facts straight. Brother George is scraping by on $12 a year.

136 Rexatosis  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:24:13am

How the "bleep" is the government going to pay for this new "Health Care System" when both Medicare and Medicaid are going broke? Oh, by the way I can add, subtract, multiply and divide (learned via old math not "new math").

137 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:24:16am

If Medicare and Medicaid are unsustainable, why would a government plan be so great?

138 Noam Sayin'  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:24:18am

re: #73 billbrent

Hey, asshole. If you're going to provide a link to the material, it's not necessary to publish the whole essay here as well. What's with the tinyurl thing? Spamming your blog?

139 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:24:19am

re: #129 midwestgak

People who want to keep things the way they are will try to scare people . . .

He's right. He wants to keep himself and the Dems in power the way it is now, and that scares people.

One thousand updings. I don't think anyone truly wants to keep things "the way they are" (Medicare et al. are in pretty bad shape, and SOMEthing needs to be done), but this is exactly the wrong way to go about it.

140 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:24:24am

re: #114 apachegunner

yes and I also said the premium had never increased anywhere near 15%

You currently have a FEDERAL HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN. That is why your costs are able to be controlled and your premiums have not risen, because it is a GOVERNMENT PLAN. Most people do not have access to this plan, as they do not work for the Federal government. Their premiums have skyrocketed. This is why Obama is attempting to reform health insurance, to allow non-government employees to have access to the government healthcare plan you currently enjoy.

141 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:24:31am

MR. OBAMA,

No one is saying DO NOTHING!

That is a Straw Man.

142 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:24:36am

re: #126 JammieWearingFool

They've exempted themselves from ObamaCare. They'd get to keep their cushy plan while the rest of us get shafted and burdened with this mess.

Is this in the bill?

143 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:24:44am

Right wing radio hosts are still heavily promoting Nirtherism, by the way. Here in LA, Tim Conway Jr. had nutjob Phillip Berg on his show yesterday, and didn't ask him one tough question.

144 tomg51spence  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:24:51am

We "let this moment pass" in 1993. Why not again?

145 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:24:52am

re: #92 apachegunner

I am with the federal blue cross/shield and my premiums haven't grown 15% a year. Never.

My California Blue Shield went up 25% this year alone, and I believe for no reasons pertaining to my age, health, or claims.

146 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:24:52am

re: #130 JamesTKirk

You can hit me with that scepter again if it will make you feel better...

HA!

147 Guanxi88  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:25:01am

re: #141 Buck

MR. OBAMA,

No one is saying DO NOTHING!

That is a Straw Man.

He's still the president, no matter what he's made of.

148 RedDish  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:25:16am

re: #108 Charles

Charles, the Specter town rally this morning wasn't stacked, and was a civil affair. There were some raised voices, some spontaneous applause, but everyone got a chance to be heard. Anyone who drew a winning number, that is. So, yeah. I kinda do blame the administration for 'stacking' an event. Give real people a chance to speak their questions. It can be done.

149 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:25:27am
150 Last Mohican  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:25:30am

You know what I think? This town hall meeting format is kind of a joke. There will be paid Democratic shills standing up and saying "me and my ten children are all going to die terrible painful deaths if congress doesn't pass this bill IMMEDIATELY!" And then there will be a few conservatives, driven to absolute terror by inaccurate Glenn Beck rants, saying "Mr. President, if this bill passes, my ten children and I are all going to be instantly euthanized by federal death squads."

What we need isn't a town hall, but a debate, between two people who have actually read the bill and know what's in it.

151 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:25:32am

re: #141 Buck

MR. OBAMA,

No one is saying DO NOTHING!

That is a Straw Man.

Where is the alternative plan? It doesn't exist. The GOP has no alternative. Just as they had no alternative after killing off Clinton's attempt at healthcare reform.

152 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:25:44am

re: #134 DistantThunder

Obama's beef about his mother's health care was all those forms and paperwork. I wonder if Obama has any similar sympathy for those of us with IRS forms and paperwork, which I guarantee are much much worse on average.

An auto dealer acquaintance told me they're filling out up to 40 forms per car for the cash for clunkers fiasco. You can only imagine the nightmare of paperwork this bill would result in.

153 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:25:46am

It hasn't already been done because it was hard, it wasn't done because we don't want it.

154 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:25:50am

re: #114 apachegunner

yes and I also said the premium had never increased anywhere near 15%

My own health insurance premiums have averaged between 3% to 5% increases year-over-year for the last 10 years or so. Much before that, I've never paid much attention, and I was with a different employer, so comparisons probably wouldn't be "fair" in some way.

155 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:25:57am

They're chanting. This was stacked.

156 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:25:58am

re: #129 midwestgak

People who want to keep things the way they are will try to scare people . . .

He's right. He wants to keep himself and the Dems in power the way it is now, and that scares people.

Problem is, people who want change also will try to scare people. Propaganda works in both directions.

The question here is, will doing something be worse than doing nothing? Have the unintended consequences been thought out (think Hawai'i's child insurance program)? I'm not so sure doing nothing is worse than doing this, and I'm not so sure they'd thought out the unintended consequences of their actions.

157 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:26:07am

re: #107 NukeAtomrod

No. That isn't what their doing. It doesn't take 1000+ pages of legalize to say. American citizens will choose the private insurance they wish and the U. S. government will pay their enrollment cost.

Unclear.

Whether the feds will offer their own plan is the biggest item of contention.

If they do, it will kill all private insurance, I believe on day one.

158 Last Mohican  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:26:14am

re: #123 NYC_Mike

Can the CNN coverage of this get any more biased?
Here's a blurb copied from their website at 1PM NYC time

I too would rather see a calm debate and feel that shouting people down is a tactic unbecoming of conservatives. That having been said - in an era where the media openly shills for the party currently in power and their agenda, some shouting and frustration seems like a fairly normal reaction. Still - we can beat this back with the facts and history.

That is indeed a truly impressive example of obscene media bias.

159 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:26:28am
160 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:26:30am

re: #140 drcordell

You currently have a FEDERAL HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN. That is why your costs are able to be controlled and your premiums have not risen, because it is a GOVERNMENT PLAN. Most people do not have access to this plan, as they do not work for the Federal government. Their premiums have skyrocketed. This is why Obama is attempting to reform health insurance, to allow non-government employees to have access to the government healthcare plan you currently enjoy.

It is also why health care is bankrupting the goverment and cannot continue as it is now. So, adding everyone else will be better? How?

161 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:26:39am

CHANGE just for the sake of changing, is dangerous.

Change, but make it better by planning.

Change can just mean crossing the street. Looking both ways before you cross is still important.

162 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:26:41am

re: #132 Kosh's Shadow

They have nowhere to go.
What country without socialized medicine is big enough and rich enough to support them?


It's not where they will go, but what they will do. These are generally smart people. They will do what they are rewarded for, i.e. investment banking. If medicine becomes unprofitable for doctors, you better hope you never get sick. That's the kind of hope Obama was talking about.

163 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:26:44am

re: #143 Charles

Right wing radio hosts are still heavily promoting Nirtherism, by the way. Here in LA, Tim Conway Jr. had nutjob Phillip Berg on his show yesterday, and didn't ask him one tough question.

Ask a tough question
Risk Berg (et al) won;t come back

RATINGS win out again over morals

164 tomg51spence  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:26:55am

Choose Me! Choose Me!!!

165 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:27:19am

re: #158 Last Mohican

That is indeed a truly impressive example of obscene media bias.

The "obscene media bias" that is giving equal time to rational people who know what is and is not in this bill, and people screaming about senior citizens being euthanized? Give me a f*cking break.

166 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:27:21am

re: #151 drcordell

Where is the alternative plan? It doesn't exist. The GOP has no alternative. Just as they had no alternative after killing off Clinton's attempt at healthcare reform.

Your lack of perspective is just plain annoying, whether you have a point or not.

167 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:27:21am

re: #152 JammieWearingFool

An auto dealer acquaintance told me they're filling out up to 40 forms per car for the cash for clunkers fiasco. You can only imagine the nightmare of paperwork this bill would result in.

I know, I had to sign about 20 of them, some were pretty brief though.

168 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:27:31am

Questions. Boy girl boy girl. Let's keep this fair.

What?

169 Syrah  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:27:33am

re: #150 Last Mohican

You know what I think? This town hall meeting format is kind of a joke. There will be paid Democratic shills standing up and saying "me and my ten children are all going to die terrible painful deaths if congress doesn't pass this bill IMMEDIATELY!" And then there will be a few conservatives, driven to absolute terror by inaccurate Glenn Beck rants, saying "Mr. President, if this bill passes, my ten children and I are all going to be instantly euthanized by federal death squads."

What we need isn't a town hall, but a debate, between two people who have actually read the bill and know what's in it.

I have played the town hall game before. The only "paid" people that attend those things are the congressional staffers and the media reporters and crews.

There are people that are "activist" from both sides that show up. They may be recruited, but they are not paid.

170 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:27:36am

I think it's Obama scaring people and trying to stampede the herd with these insane "deadlines."

171 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:27:38am

re: #140 drcordell

You currently have a FEDERAL HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN. That is why your costs are able to be controlled and your premiums have not risen, because it is a GOVERNMENT PLAN. Most people do not have access to this plan, as they do not work for the Federal government. Their premiums have skyrocketed. This is why Obama is attempting to reform health insurance, to allow non-government employees to have access to the government healthcare plan you currently enjoy.


I am from a quite extended family. I have probably 100s of aunts, uncles, cousins, brothers, sisters and friends. I've never heard a complaint from any that their health care is not appreciated, nor that the couldn't afford it. Lets get back to the numbers 82% have it and well over 62% have no problem with it.

172 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:27:45am

re: #151 drcordell

Where is the alternative plan? It doesn't exist. The GOP has no alternative. Just as they had no alternative after killing off Clinton's attempt at healthcare reform.

Why must we have a plan RIGHT NOW? Where's the fire?

173 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:27:52am

re: #168 midwestgak

Questions. Boy girl boy girl. Let's keep this fair.

What?

I know. R-D-R-D would be fair.

174 jill e  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:04am

re: #139 thedopefishlives

One thousand updings. I don't think anyone truly wants to keep things "the way they are" (Medicare et al. are in pretty bad shape, and SOMEthing needs to be done), but this is exactly the wrong way to go about it.

But don't just DO something to being doing it. Why not start with trying to cover the people who really need help and leave the people who don't alone?

175 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:16am

re: #14 apachegunner

read somewhere this morning 70% were lottery assigned

Soon that will apply to who gets health care.

176 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:16am

re: #145 itellu3times

My California Blue Shield went up 25% this year alone, and I believe for no reasons pertaining to my age, health, or claims.


ouch

177 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:21am

re: #76 drcordell

You are already paying for it with your insurance premiums that are growing 15% a year. Next question.

How much of our premiums go to trial lawyers?

178 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:23am

re: #168 midwestgak

Questions. Boy girl boy girl. Let's keep this fair.

What?

He should go by thickness of socks.

179 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:25am

re: #155 EmmmieG

They're chanting. This was stacked.

I wonder how many SEIU members are there?

180 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:27am

Mr. President,

During the campaign you ran on a single payer system.

Why have you changed "public option" and "you can keep your current health care?"

181 Guanxi88  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:29am

re: #150 Last Mohican


What we need isn't a town hall, but a debate, between two people who have actually read the bill and know what's in it.

Yeah, but thus far, the only ones who have read the bill are opposed to it; wouldn't be much of a debate.

182 Spider Mensch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:38am

if this bill passes, someday, maybe..and it still resembles what oblama wants..oh there will be private health insurance available..sure will, and it will be a status symbol..like owning a BMW or a Lexus...private care will be for the elites..like obama and the elitist class he answers to..and that is a fact.

183 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:40am

re: #166 itellu3times

Your lack of perspective is just plain annoying, whether you have a point or not.

Huh? He said that nobody was talking about doing nothing. I said that yes, the GOP is talking about doing nothing. As an example I cited the fact that they had no alternative plan the last time they destroyed healthcare reform. Do you have a substantive response?

184 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:47am

re: #174 jill e

But don't just DO something to being doing it. Why not start with trying to cover the people who really need help and leave the people who don't alone?

Oh, I quite agree. Doing something for the sake of doing something is just plain dumb. That's why I disagree with the way the ObamaCare thing was blasted through at light speed - this is ridiculous.

185 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:51am

Zat the best idea any you boys can come up with? REEform?!
--Pappy O'Daniel in O Brother, Where Art Thou?

186 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:28:52am

1st question...plant?

187 calcajun  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:29:01am

Why do I get the sense that this is the political version of professional wrestling? The only question is who's gonna get the chair?/

188 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:29:12am

re: #170 DistantThunder

I think it's Obama scaring people and trying to stampede the herd with these insane "deadlines."

Creating a crisis to which the government must respond?

189 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:29:21am

re: #151 drcordell

Where is the alternative plan? It doesn't exist. The GOP has no alternative. Just as they had no alternative after killing off Clinton's attempt at healthcare reform.

Stop, will you please. I linked to Rep Paul Ryans plan yesterday that you ingnored, instead ranting about the other one I linked to (Newt gingrichs) excoreating me that NEWT ISN'T IN OFFICE

190 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:29:29am

re: #170 DistantThunder

I think it's Obama scaring people and trying to stampede the herd with these insane "deadlines."

Never let a crisis go to waste. If one doesn't exist, create it.

191 hous bin pharteen  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:29:33am

re: #7 JacksonTn

That union sounds awfully funny to me. That union boss to. I heard adds on the radio from them about the state budget. The add was all about helping the sick. Having dealt with union members, getting higher pay meant more to them then helping people. The non-union hospitals in my area do much better work than the union hospitals. The police shot a man locally, and the police sent him to a hospital further away then to two closer, union hospitals, to save his life.
I was a member of a union before. I was dealing with the bosses with the company and the union was just another level of management. The head of that union sounds corrupt. The new mob teamsters.

192 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:29:46am

My prediction: He will spend a significant portion of the proceedings setting up strawmen who believe our system is perfect, call his opponents demagogues, and claim that all those folks outside who drove in their own cars, carrying handmade signs, are actually paid shills for the insurance companies and the RNC.

My hope: He'll slip up and call the protesters un-American.

193 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:29:52am

re: #186 Baier

1st question...plant?

First? How about every single one of them?

194 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:29:53am

Keeping insurance private will allow the public to "swarm" to the best options. But the government doesn't let us pick from over 1700 choices. It restricts and regulates, and tells us we aren't allowed to be adults and make our own choices.

A Simple Plan.

Massive Tort Reform
Tear Down the Walls and Allow Choice

195 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:29:56am

re: #69 drcordell

That is kind of the point... the government isn't actually taking over private insurance. They're creating a public insurance plan to be administered by private health care companies.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAA

196 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:29:59am

re: #63 DistantThunder

We have NJ state health insurance and have already had to go BLACK MARKET

Racist!!!

///

197 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:30:03am

So far it's a Potemkin Village Town Hall.

198 equable  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:30:04am

This dumb dummy:

"Can't we give the American people what they want without the Republicans?"

HEY ASSHOLE REPUBLICANS ARE AMERICANS TOO!

Oh and there's this funny little thing called "majority rule".

Ah shit I am annoyed, beer-thirty.

199 aggieann  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:30:05am

re: #149 buzzsawmonkey

Obama never did give nothin' to the straw men
That they didn't, didn't already have...

Fight the Straw Man! Down with Wheatie!

200 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:30:06am

re: #172 MandyManners

Why must we have a plan RIGHT NOW? Where's the fire?

The fire? In 2010 the Dems are going to be out of power.
Especially after all of this power-grabbing shenanigans

(sorry to jump in)

201 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:30:17am

re: #122 drcordell

Have you read any bill that has ever been passed through Congress, under any administration. How many pages do you think the Patriot Act was, or any of Bush's 3 major tax cut bills? They're all huge and incomprehensible.

That's because those bills create gigantic bureaucratic boondoggles, just like the plan Obama is pushing. The more confusing the wording, the more difficult it is for the average citizen to effectively oppose a bill. It's a shell game.

202 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:30:23am

We have no options today? What?

203 calcajun  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:30:30am

re: #176 apachegunner

One of the reasons that is happening is that there are fewer people paying into the system. Not a lot of young people have insurance, either. The more people who leave a carrier, the more the carrier's rates go up.

204 JohnAdams  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:30:58am

re: #132 Kosh's Shadow

They have nowhere to go.
What country without socialized medicine is big enough and rich enough to support them?

No, the bigger problem is that the best and brightest young minds will decide to stay away from a medical career because it will be a life of drudgery for $60,000 a year.

205 Syrah  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:31:00am

re: #202 midwestgak

We have no options today? What?

No options. Just the plan.

206 Killian Bundy  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:31:07am
Apparently the people at this meeting were not pre-screened

/yes we can!

207 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:31:08am

RINO roll call.

208 Noam Sayin'  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:31:20am

re: #195 debutaunt

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAA

One starts to wonder if the cordell actually believes the crap he dumps here.

209 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:31:25am

re: #171 apachegunner

I am from a quite extended family. I have probably 100s of aunts, uncles, cousins, brothers, sisters and friends. I've never heard a complaint from any that their health care is not appreciated, nor that the couldn't afford it. Lets get back to the numbers 82% have it and well over 62% have no problem with it.

Wow! Only 1/3rd of the nation is completely dissatisfied with their healthcare! That's a great statistic. And notice how you completely skipped the entire moral of your story. You are currently enjoying healthcare that you have no problems with under a FEDERAL healthcare plan. One that is administered by the government but gives care through private companies, just as Obama is proposing.

210 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:31:28am

re: #200 FrogMarch

The fire? In 2010 the Dems are going to be out of power.
Especially after all of this power-grabbing shenanigans

(sorry to jump in)


They will be after this.

211 calcajun  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:31:31am

re: #199 aggieann

Fight the Straw Man! Down with Wheatie!

Come on-- where's your moral fiber?

212 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:31:36am

re: #204 JohnAdams

No, the bigger problem is that the best and brightest young minds will decide to stay away from a medical career because it will be a life of drudgery for $60,000 a year.

No sane human being would go through residency for $60,000 a year.

213 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:31:36am

re: #172 MandyManners

Why must we have a plan RIGHT NOW? Where's the fire?

Mark Steyn says it's because they want to get over the river so they can burn the bridge - and then we're stuck. Then they can take us on one at a time - on their terms. I'm living that nightmare right now.

214 jill e  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:31:49am

This becomes something about egos and legacies and appearances...instead of common sense realities.

215 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:31:56am

re: #147 Guanxi88

He's still the president, no matter what he's made of.

Strawman (Wizard of Oz Scarecrow)

I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain

I'd unravel any riddle
For any individ'le
In trouble or in pain


With the thoughts you'd be thinkin'
You could be another Lincoln
If you only had a brain


Oh, I would tell you why
The ocean's near the shore
I could think of things I never thunk before
And then I'd sit and think some more

I would not be just a nuffin'
My head all full of stuffin'
My heart all full of pain
I would dance and be merry
Life would be a ding-a-derry
If I only had a brain

216 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:31:58am

Questioner #1 was slick and probably pre-determined.

217 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:32:33am

Mr. President, government work is a byword for red tape and incompetency. Why should we believe that this would be any different?

218 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:32:43am

re: #212 EmmmieG

No sane human being would go through residency for $60,000 a year.

So we'll trust our health to insane people! What could possibly go wrong?

219 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:32:51am

re: #202 midwestgak

We have no options today? What?

We have fewer options because companies are not allowed to sell policies across state lines. They are also not allowed to offer policies that don't include certain things mandated by various and assorted state and federal governments, like maternity care and substance abuse treatment.

220 JPL17  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:05am

re: #91 RedDish

Someone at another site mentioned the 'window' for the White House registration was less than 12 hours.

Did they announce the 12-hour window after it closed?

221 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:06am

re: #213 DistantThunder

Mark Steyn says it's because they want to get over the river so they can burn the bridge - and then we're stuck. Then they can take us on one at a time - on their terms. I'm living that nightmare right now.

Who says it cannot be reversed in the next Congress?

222 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:07am

re: #182 Spider Mensch

if this bill passes, someday, maybe..and it still resembles what oblama wants..oh there will be private health insurance available..sure will, and it will be a status symbol..like owning a BMW or a Lexus...private care will be for the elites..like obama and the elitist class he answers to..and that is a fact.

To be fair, that's going to happen no matter how things turn out. Those with more wealth will ALWAYS have access to more and better health care, just as they have more and better access to cars, food and plumbing fixtures. That's how it is now, and that's how it will be if any health care reform passes, no matter what shape it takes.

223 Equable  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:14am

Oh God...

"I've seen mean signs, how do I know what is true?"

Answer:

"PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!"

224 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:18am

re: #189 sattv4u2

Stop, will you please. I linked to Rep Paul Ryans plan yesterday that you ingnored, instead ranting about the other one I linked to (Newt gingrichs) excoreating me that NEWT ISN'T IN OFFICE

There is a difference between a few powerpoint slides, and a substantive piece of legislation that is being supported by the GOP caucus and written up to be passed through the various committees required to make a bill into law. The fact that a single (nutjob BTW) GOP rep has a "plan" that he posted to his website is not evidence the GOP is serious about healthcare reform.

225 Spider Mensch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:20am

here is my district congressional rep (D) Steve Rothman, first local meeting, carried by drudge no less,..[Link: www.northjersey.com...]

upset people..yes..out of control lunatics? No..just concerned citizens...

226 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:25am

Oooh...mean.

I'm not interested in the opinions of a child. Not enough life experience to understand what is going on. No perspective, no understanding of history.

227 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:33am

re: #183 drcordell

Huh? He said that nobody was talking about doing nothing. I said that yes, the GOP is talking about doing nothing. As an example I cited the fact that they had no alternative plan the last time they destroyed healthcare reform. Do you have a substantive response?

Yes, you're shrieking about the word "plan" and ignoring many suggestions that Republicans have proposed. Republican's don't believe in ANY kind of "plan" the way you ranting socialists like to throw around - and you know that, or should, so your very question is an offensive argument that does not respect the opposition, ignores many facts, and vitiates any real possibility of discussion.

228 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:35am

If we assume 50M uninsured, what is the cost to us to buy them all insurance in the current marketplace? Less than a Trillion?

Does it cost more than 20k to insure each and every one of them?

229 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:37am

I went to one these campaign events and they have operatives handing out lists of questions that they wanted asked. Many of the questions asked at the event were right from the list.

230 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:40am

He's talking about Palin's "death panel" craziness.

231 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:43am

re: #209 drcordell

Wow! Only 1/3rd of the nation is completely dissatisfied with their healthcare! That's a great statistic. And notice how you completely skipped the entire moral of your story. You are currently enjoying healthcare that you have no problems with under a FEDERAL healthcare plan. One that is administered by the government but gives care through private companies, just as Obama is proposing.

Problem is the more the government pays out of pocket for these costs, the more they cut, the more they cut, the fewer providers are willing to participate - the whole system breaks down once government gets involved on a large scale.

232 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:46am

re: #209 drcordell

I'm curious as to why you think the Pelosi/Reid/Obama health care insurance proposal is better than the current system, and why you think it is better than "doing nothing"?

Remember, changes can bring unintended consequences, and some of those unintended consequences have the potential to be disasterous.

233 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:33:47am

re: #204 JohnAdams

No, the bigger problem is that the best and brightest young minds will decide to stay away from a medical career because it will be a life of drudgery for $60,000 a year.

And how much will be left after their med school loan payments?

234 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:34:08am

They laugh at euthanasia.

235 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:34:13am

Question for Obama:

Can you point to any achievement what-so-ever that you feel has prepared or qualified you to accomplish this enormous change in US public policy? ...No? Any legislative record of success? ...Nothing? OK, how about executive experience... What big projects or enterprises have you directed? ...None? Ok, any managerial experience? ...Nada there too, eh? Hmmm...

Ooookaaayy... well, good luck with this thing then, Barry.

236 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:34:27am

Obama's gonna kill mah granny!

237 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:34:42am

re: #143 Charles

Right wing radio hosts are still heavily promoting Nirtherism, by the way. Here in LA, Tim Conway Jr. had nutjob Phillip Berg on his show yesterday, and didn't ask him one tough question.

Somehow I think his father would do better. Tim Sr. is probably wishing he gave sonny-boy another name.

238 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:34:50am

re: #234 CyanSnowHawk

They laugh at euthanasia.

Oh please. They're laughing at the absurdity of using crazy terms like "death panels."

239 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:34:52am

re: #230 Charles

He's talking about Palin's "death panel" craziness.

I understood Palin's comments to be about Quali, etc. - not the end-of-life stuff, although that keeps being repeated.

240 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:34:56am

re: #221 MandyManners

Who says it cannot be reversed in the next Congress?

The same Dems who block any meaningful changes to Medicare, Social Security, Fannie Mae and so forth; guaranteeing that things will go straight to hell in a handbasket with nary a speed bump on the way.

241 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:35:02am

re: #224 drcordell

There is a difference between a few powerpoint slides, and a substantive piece of legislation that is being supported by the GOP caucus and written up to be passed through the various committees required to make a bill into law. The fact that a single (nutjob BTW) GOP rep has a "plan" that he posted to his website is not evidence the GOP is serious about healthcare reform.

Maybe many people don't think there really needs to be a government plan, at least not an overarching one.

242 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:35:14am

Questioner #2 also appears to be a plant. I am beginning to doubt we'll see any geriatric mobsters today. Maybe their invitations were lost in the mail?

243 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:35:25am

re: #221 MandyManners

Who says it cannot be reversed in the next Congress?

I was speaking from the delusional democrat point of view. Shove it down our throats, and then they make it impossible for us to wiggle out of it - even if is failing - think public education.

244 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:35:38am

re: #240 JamesTKirk

The same Dems who block any meaningful changes to Medicare, Social Security, Fannie Mae and so forth; guaranteeing that things will go straight to hell in a handbasket with nary a speed bump on the way.

Those same Democrats might not be around next term.

245 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:35:39am

I wouldn't be surprised to see Code Pink show up. Their behavior is inimitable.
Most priceless comment so far was when Arlen Spectre* was asked in NH (what was he doing there, btw? ) why he wouldn't listen to concerns of the people who elected him... Republicans.
He was not amused, but most people were.

246 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:35:42am

re: #236 Killgore Trout

That's my Mom's concern. A non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma survivor.

247 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:35:52am

re: #238 Charles

Oh please. They're laughing at the absurdity of using crazy terms like "death panels."

She should have called it what it is - "End of life consultation".

Which is just as creepy, is you ask me.

248 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:35:52am

re: #209 drcordell

Wow! Only 1/3rd of the nation is completely dissatisfied with their healthcare! That's a great statistic. And notice how you completely skipped the entire moral of your story. You are currently enjoying healthcare that you have no problems with under a FEDERAL healthcare plan. One that is administered by the government but gives care through private companies, just as Obama is proposing.

Sure, along with his government run public option in competition with BC/S. He'll soon drive them out of business and have a Health Department staffed by 10s or 1000s of loyal gubmit people to vote for his administration. He will drive away all private options of which that is one. I have a choice of many programs, he'll drive them all out of business!

249 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:36:00am

re: #209 drcordell

One that is administered by the government but gives care through private companies, just as Obama is proposing.

Actually, I don't think 0bama is proposing anything, at the moment. Only Congress has put forward any concrete proposals.

In the past, however, 0bama has strongly endorsed eliminating private health insurance altogether in favor of a single-payer, government-operated system.

250 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:36:03am

Need juice. bbiab

251 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:36:05am

On the close up, I thought there was a lady behind him making faces. It's the translator.

My mistake.

/but it would have been funny.

252 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:36:12am

re: #232 Honorary Yooper

I'm curious as to why you think the Pelosi/Reid/Obama health care insurance proposal is better than the current system, and why you think it is better than "doing nothing"?

Remember, changes can bring unintended consequences, and some of those unintended consequences have the potential to be disasterous.

The intended consequences are bad enough.

253 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:36:14am

re: #219 doppelganglander

We have fewer options because companies are not allowed to sell policies across state lines. They are also not allowed to offer policies that don't include certain things mandated by various and assorted state and federal governments, like maternity care and substance abuse treatment.

um, maternity care was mandated by law many years ago in every state. One more reason premiums go up. Government meddling.

254 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:36:23am

Again, my topical limerick for the day:

If you think you're insured, you're insane.
You're the source of our shareholders' gain.
If your kid's getting sick
gives our profits a nick
we'll soon teach you the meaning of pain*.

*Note: This could also be rendered as payin'. Just sayin'.

255 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:36:34am

re: #247 FrogMarch

She should have called it what it is - "End of life consultation".

Which is just as creepy, is you ask me.

That's what insurance companies call it right now. It's a completely standard type of care offered by many companies.

256 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:36:48am

re: #246 CyanSnowHawk

Obama is not going to kill her.

257 JohnnyReb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:36:51am

re: #224 drcordell

There is a difference between a few powerpoint slides, and a substantive piece of legislation that is being supported by the GOP caucus and written up to be passed through the various committees required to make a bill into law. The fact that a single (nutjob BTW) GOP rep has a "plan" that he posted to his website is not evidence the GOP is serious about healthcare reform.


Healthcare does not need reformed. This bill is not about reform. It is about control. Health Care in the US is not broken with the exception of Medicare/Medicaid. Fix them and any preceived problem goes away

258 badtemper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:36:53am

So far, it's an infomercial. Not screened? Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. OK.

259 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:37:02am

re: #242 NukeAtomrod

Questioner #2 also appears to be a plant. I am beginning to doubt we'll see any geriatric mobsters today. Maybe their invitations were lost in the mail?

I have a hunch all the elderly attendees are pre-approved by AARP. In a couple of days, someone will google all the questioners and discover that they are members of such non-partisan organizations as ACORN, SEIU, and those Orwellian-sounding groups like Organizing for America's Future (I made that one up, but you know what I mean).

260 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:37:17am

Government heare: #209 drcordell

Government health care called Medicare is in a $32,000,000,000,000.00 (that's Trillion with a T) hole. Not counting what medicare providers shift to the private sector to cover actual costs.

You want to hand the entire health care system to the same people digging that hole?

261 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:37:23am

The word, Mr. President, is waiting time. If my doctor says "treatment," but I can't get it for three months, that's a very bad thing.

262 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:37:25am

Top questions I'd like to see asked and answered:

1) How is it that you can put together a health care bill without knowing how to pay for it? As admitted by Members of Congress (Ben Cardin), no one knows how this will all be paid for. Wouldn't it make more sense to know first where the money comes from and design a system than try and throw everything and the kitchen sink and realize later you have to raise taxes?

2) Where are you drawing the line on the income level of those who will see an increase in their taxes as a result of this plan?

3) Is there a penalty for people opting not to obtain health insurance, and what is the thinking behind limiting personal choice in that fashion. After all, if that person doesn't want to pay for the health insurance, and is penalized, that's a back-door tax.

A few others I've mentioned here.

4) How much will this realistically cost, given that every other government program has gone staggeringly over cost projections.
5) How long will I have under my existing program until the government health care forces me into the public plan.
6) Why should public health care improve quality when we've got examples from other countries where care becomes far more restrictive and quality of care is substandard in US gov't health care programs like the Indian Health Service and the VA.
7) Cash for clunkers anyone? If you can't manage a $1 (now $3) billion program adequately, how can anyone expect the government to do a better job with a significant portion of the US GNP. No one understood how many vehicles were in the pipeline for rebates or where the balance stood. The same can apply to the billions utilized under TARP. How can you manage costs when the government can't even keep track of the money on its books.

And a few others:
8) One of the big selling points you've made is that this will be cost effective and save money. How exactly can you make that argument when not even the CBO buys it?
9) Medicare and Medicaid are prime examples of government health care programs run amok. They're tens of billions of dollars in debt, and yet this program would apparently expand both significantly, all while further constraining the charges - something has to give.
10) What is the specific reasoning behind your demand that health care reform had to be completed by August recess? After all, access to health care isn't ending at that (or any point), and we've been living with this system for decades. The demand to have this change practically overnight, with limited debate - and without reading - suggests that you are less than honest in what your ultimate aim is here.

Curing the health care system doesn't require killing the patient (the health care system). Yet, that's precisely what it looks like to many people who want to know why you're pushing this as a crisis when few people are devoid of health care options.

Oh, and since you think some of the costs have to do with end of life care options, would it not be cheaper to simply call for everyone to maintain up-to-date advance directives and living wills, rather than advocate changes that potentially limit choices at end of life without the patient's input.

263 JohnAdams  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:37:26am

My question for Dear Leader: Even if you do wish to so graciously "provide" health care for all, how you can you justify asking the Chinese to pay for it?

264 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:37:47am

No subsidizing insurance companies...Auto manufacturers and banks on the other hand...

265 JustABill  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:37:48am

re: #91 RedDish

Someone at another site mentioned the 'window' for the White House registration was less than 12 hours.

Is there anyone here who diesn't think that lots of unions, publc sector employees, and other generally reliably democrat voting groups got advanced warning of when registration would open?

266 Ojoe  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:38:02am

Mr. Obama, why, as President, are you promoting new legislation?

It is the Congress's job to write legislation, by the Constitution you are only supposed to enforce it.

You are making a mess, sir; please go read the Constitution.

267 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:38:12am

re: #244 MandyManners

Those same Democrats might not be around next term.

Do you honestly think that enough of them will be gone? In both houses? And don't forget the media, who've spread the "Republicans want to take away your Social Security/Sesame Street/kids' school lunches/etc." scare tactics at every other junction.

268 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:38:23am

Obama was quoted this morning as saying he thinks ' this debate, these differences of opinion about health care is thoroughly American and a good thing' (not an exact quote). So how does he reconcile that with his statement that he wants 'those who created this mess' [sic] to ' just shut up and not do a lot of talking '?

269 JPL17  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:38:25am

re: #155 EmmmieG

They're chanting. This was stacked.

What are they chanting?

270 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:38:32am

Two types of complainers: professional complainers vs. those who hardly ever complain so that when they do, we should listen.

You know in England where they have ambulances stacked up around the block waiting to unload their patients - people in the US are NOT going to put up with that.

271 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:38:33am

re: #253 midwestgak

um, maternity care was mandated by law many years ago in every state. One more reason premiums go up. Government meddling.

Exactly. Why can't I buy a policy that doesn't include maternity? I can't get pregnant!

272 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:38:46am

re: #209 drcordell

Wow! Only 1/3rd of the nation is completely dissatisfied with their healthcare! That's a great statistic. And notice how you completely skipped the entire moral of your story. You are currently enjoying healthcare that you have no problems with under a FEDERAL healthcare plan. One that is administered by the government but gives care through private companies, just as Obama is proposing.

And which keeps premiums down by passing the costs onto the Non-Federal employed users of the health care plan. What's going to happen when there are no non-public plans to pass the costs onto?

273 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:38:51am

re: #256 Killgore Trout

Obama is not going to kill her.

Maybe not personally. ///

274 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:39:06am

re: #256 Killgore Trout

Obama is not going to kill her.

He has union goons for that.

275 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:39:11am

re: #269 JPL17

What are they chanting?

They were chanting "Yes we can," which I seem to recall was a campaign slogan for someone. I forget the name.

276 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:39:17am

re: #256 Killgore Trout

Obama is not going to kill her.

She is concerned that care would be withheld as too expensive/not worth it. She was a nurse for more than 40 years. She is familiar with the current system and not happy with what she hears about gov reform.

277 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:39:21am

re: #224 drcordell

There is a difference between a few powerpoint slides, and a substantive piece of legislation that is being supported by the GOP caucus and written up to be passed through the various committees required to make a bill into law. The fact that a single (nutjob BTW) GOP rep has a "plan" that he posted to his website is not evidence the GOP is serious about healthcare reform.

All attempts to submit riders, amendments, additions, modifications, or any type of input at all by the GOP has been completely rebuffed by the partisanship-free Democratic majority. Demanding a written piece of legislation is a red herring; there is no way for any such thing to be enacted or even considered in the present environment.

278 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:39:27am

re: #257 JohnnyReb

Healthcare does not need reformed. This bill is not about reform. It is about control. Health Care in the US is not broken with the exception of Medicare/Medicaid. Fix them and any preceived problem goes away

Reform is badly needed, costs are spinning out of control.

279 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:39:42am

re: #269 JPL17

Si su puede.

280 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:39:53am

re: #209 drcordell

Wow! Only 1/3rd of the nation is completely dissatisfied with their healthcare! That's a great statistic. And notice how you completely skipped the entire moral of your story. You are currently enjoying healthcare that you have no problems with under a FEDERAL healthcare plan. One that is administered by the government but gives care through private companies, just as Obama is proposing.

Administered by the government means the private providers will have to submit a 500-page form every time they take your temperature.

281 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:39:54am

re: #275 EmmmieG

They were chanting "Yes we can," which I seem to recall was a campaign slogan for someone. I forget the name.

Bankrupt the Country? Destroy health care? Communize America?

Yes, they can, what?

282 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:39:54am

Insurance companies don't deny care like prescription drugs unless they are considered experimental. They give you the choice of generic or brand name.

If there is no generic equivalent, that's not the insurance companies fault.

283 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:40:05am

re: #278 avanti

Reform is badly needed, costs are spinning out of control.

There is reform and there is REFORM.

284 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:40:12am

re: #155 EmmmieG

They're chanting. This was stacked.

Uh ... Obama was elected, remember? By a majority? Doesn't seem odd that the audience might contain more than a few supporters.

285 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:40:18am

re: #275 EmmmieG

They were chanting "Yes we can," which I seem to recall was a campaign slogan for someone. I forget the name.

Bob the Builder.

286 Bob Dillon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:40:27am

re: #4 Jetpilot1101

Mr. President, will members of Congress and to a larger extent ALL government employees be enrolled in this plan or will the current TRICARE plan that covers federal workers be maintained?

Umm, let me be perfectly clear here, everyone can keep their same doctors and coverage they already have if they like it. Next question.

287 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:40:34am

re: #267 JamesTKirk

Do you honestly think that enough of them will be gone? In both houses? And don't forget the media, who've spread the "Republicans want to take away your Social Security/Sesame Street/kids' school lunches/etc." scare tactics at every other junction.

I read here that all seats in Congress will be up for grabs in 2010.

288 gregb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:40:36am

I really hate that strawman that the alternative is "to do nothing."

I don't think anyone's proposing that. Maybe in some philosophical sense, there are some that are saying it's better to do nothing than what's current being proposed as the solution.

I wish someone would ask Mr. Obama why he voted against several reasonable reforms.

289 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:40:46am

I think Bill and Hillary are laughing.

290 Digital Display  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:40:53am

re: #238 Charles

Oh please. They're laughing at the absurdity of using crazy terms like "death panels."


I didn't understand that.. When my mom was close to passing the insurance paid for Counseling about end of life issues and hospice and everything we could expect in the coming weeks..
Death Panel talk is ludicrous and misrepresents a valuable and necessary
benfit for the family.

291 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:40:58am

re: #278 avanti

Reform is badly needed, costs are spinning out of control.

Yes. The Gov't should not be in the HC business, but legislation needs to guide the private sector.

292 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:41:03am

re: #284 Charles

Uh ... Obama was elected, remember? By a majority? Doesn't seem odd that the audience might contain more than a few supporters.

But all of them? I didn't see anyone sitting down during the standing O's. I wouldn't have stood.

293 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:41:13am

re: #260 jcm

Government hea

Government health care called Medicare is in a $32,000,000,000,000.00 (that's Trillion with a T) hole. Not counting what medicare providers shift to the private sector to cover actual costs.

You want to hand the entire health care system to the same people digging that hole?

Try to think of nationalized health care as a really, really big shovel.

294 Rexatosis  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:41:34am

Re #95 drcordell

BlueShield/Blue Cross is not part of the federal government. It is an association that provides insurance through member companies. (see their website Your text to link...) Individuals or small businesses buy BlueShield/Blue Cross coverage through an insurance company.

P.S. hope I did the link correctly (www.bcbs.com)

295 badtemper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:41:36am

re: #278 avanti

Reform is badly needed, costs are spinning out of control.

First things first. Let's do Tort reform first.

296 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:41:42am

re: #275 EmmmieG

They were chanting "Yes we can," which I seem to recall was a campaign slogan for someone. I forget the name.

So why isn't chanting considered hooliganism, too? Even if it is positive?

297 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:42:12am

Drug companies don't deserve those patents///

298 JohnAdams  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:42:17am

re: #287 MandyManners

I read here that all seats in Congress will be up for grabs in 2010.

I think the House of Reps is on two-year turnover, up in 2010. Senators have six years.

299 JohnnyReb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:42:24am

re: #278 avanti

Reform is badly needed, costs are spinning out of control.

I am not buying that argument. The medical system is not broken. What is broken in the legal system in this country. Shove some serious Tort reform through congress and there will not be any problems. Ask any doctor what they spend on unnecessary tests and such and how much they pay for malpractice. Fix those issues first and I suspect a huge part of costs will go away.

300 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:42:25am

I know, let's take away the financial incentive to make new medicines.

301 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:42:26am

re: #287 MandyManners

I read here that all seats in Congress will be up for grabs in 2010.

Oops. House of Representatives.

302 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:42:32am

re: #278 avanti

Reform is badly needed, costs are spinning out of control.

First, do no harm.

Cap trial lawyers awards, for starters, before you create a program that will end up costing more and saddling our children with a more crushing debt load than they already face.

303 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:42:39am
304 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:42:50am

re: #286 Bobibutu

Umm, let me be perfectly clear here, everyone can keep their same doctors and coverage they already have if they like it. Next question.

For now.

305 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:42:57am

re: #257 JohnnyReb

Healthcare does not need reformed. This bill is not about reform. It is about control. Health Care in the US is not broken with the exception of Medicare/Medicaid. Fix them and any preceived problem goes away

Yes, whatever you say Johnny. Everything is fine! No healthcare crisis to see here.

306 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:43:00am

re: #288 gregb

I really hate that strawman that the alternative is "to do nothing."
I don't think anyone's proposing that. Maybe in some philosophical sense, there are some that are saying it's better to do nothing than what's current being proposed as the solution.

I wish someone would ask Mr. Obama why he voted against several reasonable reforms.

That strawman has been flung around here a lot lately.

307 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:43:06am

re: #287 MandyManners

I read here that all seats in Congress will be up for grabs in 2010.

Really? The entire Senate as well as the House of Representatives?

And you know that those in Lefty districts (like Pelosi) have absolutely nothing to fear.

Right now, the Dems have 60 people in the Senate, most of whom are not up for reelection in 2010. They would have to lose twenty-one of their members (not even possible) in order to lose their ability to filibuster any GOP attempt to undo ObamaCare in the next Congress.

308 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:43:08am

re: #303 buzzsawmonkey

They all laughed at rationing resources
Said it never would occur
To all the angry questioning they did demur

They all laughed at fears of euthanasia
Said no-one would be put in line
They all laughed, said everything would turn out fine

They laughed at those who warned against
A brand-new bureaucracy
But now at great expense
It controls both you and me

They all said we had no cause to worry
By their derision some were cowed
But, Ho, Ho, Ho--who's got the last laugh now?

No verse this time?

309 Dahveed  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:43:13am

Mr. President - the government oversees the banks and they have failed, the government runs social security and it is going bankrupt, the government oversees education yet the kids are not any better off for the government involvement, money from the stimulus has been wasted despite oversight from any number of people - based on government's track record what makes you think that government is equipped to oversee healthcare?

310 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:43:19am

I'd have a two-part question for TOTUS( and I'd request that he not use a 'prompter pre-loaded with a cheat sheet).
' What changed your mind between 2003 and the present re wanting a single payer option which you say you oppose now', and ' since your admnistration has no idea what happened to the TARP money, please explain your plan for administering one-sixth of the US economy in a less wasteful manner...'

311 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:43:28am

If many doctors can't or won't work for medicare pays right now, how can they afford to have all of their patients pay government rates? Right now a lot of them need to pass costs on to private companies.

312 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:43:29am

re: #278 avanti

Reform is badly needed, costs are spinning out of control.

Not the kind of reform Obama is proposing. Reform needs to allow competition between Health Care Plans across the country, not health care zones. Reform needs to include caps on payouts from Malpractice lawsuits, a restricting of what people can sue for, and a immediate removal of suing hospitals for anything not medically related.

A relatives hospital got sued because the patient was out of bed, and fell down the stairs, after expressly being told to stay in bed. He won.

313 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:43:30am

re: #275 EmmmieG

They were chanting "Yes we can," which I seem to recall was a campaign slogan for someone. I forget the name.

Bob the Builder

Youtube Video
314 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:43:30am

re: #289 DistantThunder

I think Bill and Hillary are laughing.

Cackling.

315 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:43:56am

A morality tale of health care from a blue state.

Universal Health Insurance in Washington State:
A Grim Prognosis For All of Us
Conrad F. Meier

In May 1993, a solidly liberal legislature and governor passed a universal health care law that included all of the key elements of the original Clinton plan:

--- A powerful new bureaucracy with more regulation
--- Mandates to buy health insurance with government-defined benefits package
--- Mandatory managed care
--- Price controls and global budgets
--- Government-controlled health care purchasing cooperatives
--- Guaranteed issue coverage and guaranteed renewability with limits of pre-existing conditions
--- Community rating and low income subsidies
--- A patient data collection system

[snip]

As of September 1999, Group Health Cooperative and Regence BlueShield --- the last two providers of individual health insurance --- both announced they would stop selling individual insurance policies in Washington State. This now leaves the individuals and families in 30 counties without private insurance options. According to State Senator Thibaudeau, there are now about 600,000 uninsured residents, or 11 percent of the state.

[snip]

The market for health insurance in the state of Washington is collapsing because of determined shortsightedness. In 1993, before radical insurance reform, 19 insurers sold individual insurance, Today, only three do. Between 1994 and 1997, the six largest insurance companies lost more than $116 million on individual policies. The loss trend continues today for the remaining insurers.

The effects of the proposed "Health Care Reform" are historically documented.

This is the future.

316 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:43:56am

re: #303 buzzsawmonkey

They all laughed at rationing resources
Said it never would occur
To all the angry questioning they did demur

They all laughed at fears of euthanasia
Said no-one would be put in line
They all laughed, said everything would turn out fine

They laughed at those who warned against
A brand-new bureaucracy
But now at great expense
It controls both you and me

They all said we had no cause to worry
By their derision some were cowed
But, Ho, Ho, Ho--who's got the last laugh now?

Went back to the regular thread to upding this.

317 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:01am
318 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:10am

re: #278 avanti

Reform is badly needed, costs are spinning out of control.

How many of those costs are the direct result of the government imposing increased regulations and demands on health care professionals?

How much of the cost for health insurance is the direct result of demanding that insurance companies provide care for certain pet needs as deemed necessary by legislative decision, rather than the needs of individuals who want the basics (catastrophic care, basic preventative). In some states, you can't get those, because the state insurance regulatory bodies wont allow it. So, while some states find that a policy that provides the bare minimum is sufficient - others wont allow that; driving up the costs.

How much of the increase is a direct result of increased technologies - MRI and other scanning equipment that enables doctors to find and treat injuries and illnesses more quickly and reliably than in the past. Those MRI machines are not cheap - and we've got more per capita than other countries. Those costs get passed on.

Then, there's the gross fraud and criminality of abusing the Medicare and Medicaid systems, to the tune of billions annually. In Miami alone, it's believed $500 million in fraud occurs annually.

319 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:13am

re: #289 DistantThunder

I think Bill and Hillary are laughing.

More like smiling - and plotting

320 gregb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:16am

re: #16 Kosh's Shadow

My question (similar to others posted) is:
"Would you commit yourself and your family to use the healthcare system you are proposing, and nothing else?"

I think he already answered that question several months ago. His answer was thus: "That's an excellent question."

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

321 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:19am

re: #294 Rexatosis

Re #95 drcordell

BlueShield/Blue Cross is not part of the federal government. It is an association that provides insurance through member companies. (see their website Your text to link...) Individuals or small businesses buy BlueShield/Blue Cross coverage through an insurance company.

P.S. hope I did the link correctly (www.bcbs.com)

Rex, the plan that Apache was referring to is the FEDERAL Blue Cross Blue Shield plan. Explicitly available solely to Federal Government employees. It is a privately administered healthcare plan that is supported by the Federal Government. Exactly what Obama wants people to have the choice to choose.

322 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:25am

re: #290 HoosierHoops

I didn't understand that.. When my mom was close to passing the insurance paid for Counseling about end of life issues and hospice and everything we could expect in the coming weeks..
Death Panel talk is ludicrous and misrepresents a valuable and necessary
benfit for the family.

My understanding is that death panel is the decision board that says if you're elderly and probably going to die within 5 years, they're not going to be paying for interventions now that average people might want. Like when people have a 20% chance of cancer survival - but want the treatment.

When the panel says No treatment - that's a death panel.

323 LGoPs  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:29am

Late to the thread but here goes with a question.
Will this plan cover illegal immigrants? And if so, are we not proposing then to essentially cover the population of the planet - as long as they can get here.

324 Locker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:33am

I would probably ask a question about special interest money in politics and what can be done about it. As a fan of a single payer health care system and a realist who knows it's never going to happen in the current environment I'd try to move towards the source of the roadblock.

325 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:35am

re: #305 drcordell

Yes, whatever you say Johnny. Everything is fine! No healthcare crisis to see here.

Exactly!

326 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:42am

re: #289 DistantThunder

I don't think Bill and Hillary are speaking, just now.
She is not happy that she does the heavy lifting at State and he takes a junket and gets the glory.

327 hoffmonster  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:45am

a very fundamental question... Why the rush to get it done?

328 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:57am

re: #318 lawhawk

How many of those costs are the direct result of the government imposing increased regulations and demands on health care professionals?

How much of the cost for health insurance is the direct result of demanding that insurance companies provide care for certain pet needs as deemed necessary by legislative decision, rather than the needs of individuals who want the basics (catastrophic care, basic preventative). In some states, you can't get those, because the state insurance regulatory bodies wont allow it. So, while some states find that a policy that provides the bare minimum is sufficient - others wont allow that; driving up the costs.

How much of the increase is a direct result of increased technologies - MRI and other scanning equipment that enables doctors to find and treat injuries and illnesses more quickly and reliably than in the past. Those MRI machines are not cheap - and we've got more per capita than other countries. Those costs get passed on.

Then, there's the gross fraud and criminality of abusing the Medicare and Medicaid systems, to the tune of billions annually. In Miami alone, it's believed $500 million in fraud occurs annually.

In California, its 1 billion in Medi-cal fraud.

329 Digital Display  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:44:59am

re: #317 buzzsawmonkey

Three stanzas and a bridge--how much more do you need?


Can I lease your brain for 1 day?

330 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:00am

THOSE BASTARD DRUG COMPANIES


How dare they want to hold onto their patents

After 10 + years of research and developemnet, passing FDA muster, marketing (etc) ,., how DARE they want to get some of that money back!!
//

331 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:00am

re: #288 gregb

The False Dichotomy... My plan or do nothing. Choose now!

332 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:10am

re: #298 JohnAdams

I think the House of Reps is on two-year turnover, up in 2010. Senators have six years.

I corrected it right after my other brain cell got going. (Just got up from a nap.)

333 gymnast  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:11am

Well, that was about as stage managed as a 1934 meeting of the SA in Munich.

334 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:20am

re: #326 tradewind

I don't think Bill and Hillary are speaking, just now.
She is not happy that she does the heavy lifting at State and he takes a junket and gets the glory.

Kind of let her feelings be known yesterday, didn't she?

335 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:21am

fast thread...wow, I cannot keep up

336 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:23am

Looks like Fox News has decided this is a staged event. They've moved on to analysis. I don't think this will help Obama to convince anyone.

337 Ojoe  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:27am

re: #307 JamesTKirk


One of the really big problems with our political system right now is the gerrymandered "safe" districts; they put the electorate to sleep so the the legislators can run the country in collusion as a private club for themselves and their cronies.

A big center party would make hash out of these gerrymandered districts.

338 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:28am

re: #307 JamesTKirk

Really? The entire Senate as well as the House of Representatives?

And you know that those in Lefty districts (like Pelosi) have absolutely nothing to fear.

Right now, the Dems have 60 people in the Senate, most of whom are not up for reelection in 2010. They would have to lose twenty-one of their members (not even possible) in order to lose their ability to filibuster any GOP attempt to undo ObamaCare in the next Congress.

No, just the house will be fully elected in 2010

339 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:33am

re: #327 hoffmonster

Simple,
Health care grab delayed is Health care grab derailed.

340 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:36am

"I have to pass a drug test to earn my money, will recipients of socialized medicine be required to pass a drug test to use my money?"

341 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:37am

re: #257 JohnnyReb

Healthcare does not need reformed. [...]

But English instruction does...

342 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:48am

re: #336 NukeAtomrod

Looks like Fox News has decided this is a staged event. They've moved on to analysis. I don't think this will help Obama to convince anyone.

Listening on C-Span.

343 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:50am

Ok, the first Republican...He's doing ok so far.

344 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:56am

re: #327 hoffmonster

a very fundamental question... Why the rush to get it done?

The half-life on the false crisis they created is rapidly diminishing and then they'll have to go through the trouble of ginning up a new one.

345 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:45:59am

re: #307 JamesTKirk

Really? The entire Senate as well as the House of Representatives?

And you know that those in Lefty districts (like Pelosi) have absolutely nothing to fear.

Right now, the Dems have 60 people in the Senate, most of whom are not up for reelection in 2010. They would have to lose twenty-one of their members (not even possible) in order to lose their ability to filibuster any GOP attempt to undo ObamaCare in the next Congress.

I'm sorry, just the House.

346 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:46:05am

re: #299 JohnnyReb

I am not buying that argument. The medical system is not broken. What is broken in the legal system in this country. Shove some serious Tort reform through congress and there will not be any problems. Ask any doctor what they spend on unnecessary tests and such and how much they pay for malpractice. Fix those issues first and I suspect a huge part of costs will go away.

I agree tort reform is a part of the cost, but not a significant one compared to drug and high tech procedures.

347 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:46:08am

I was just in the drug store, and picked up their Minute Clinic brochure. No appointment and a doctor or nurse practitioner available to treat average family illnesses. Cheap, cheap cheap since it's partially subsidized by the drug store that will sell you the medicine after the appointment.

Now THAT's genius.

348 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:46:10am

re: #287 MandyManners

I read here that all seats in Congress will be up for grabs in 2010.

No. Every member of the House is up every two years, but there are three cycles for Senate seats. Only 1/3 of all Senators are up for reelection every two years.

349 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:46:11am

re: #255 Charles

That's what insurance companies call it right now. It's a completely standard type of care offered by many companies.

Really? Well, it gives me the creeps.

350 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:46:12am

re: #322 DistantThunder

My understanding is that death panel is the decision board that says if you're elderly and probably going to die within 5 years, they're not going to be paying for interventions now that average people might want. Like when people have a 20% chance of cancer survival - but want the treatment.

When the panel says No treatment - that's a death panel.

Your understanding is completely wrong. The entire point of "end of life" counseling is that the patient chooses how their care should proceed, before they are unable to do so and someone else has to make that choice for them. Currently, that "someone else" is either an insurance company or a doctor and NOT the patient.

351 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:46:14am

Good question.

352 realwest  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:46:56am

re: #315 jcm How does that compare to Oregon's State health insurance laws and
how do either of them compare to the bill/proposal that President Obama is now pushing for?

353 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:47:01am

re: #336 NukeAtomrod

Looks like Fox News has decided this is a staged event. They've moved on to analysis. I don't think this will help Obama to convince anyone.

Oh, well if Fox News has decided it's a staged event then it must be true. Who's doing the commentary now? Glenn Beck or Alex Jones?

354 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:47:03am

Did he really propose eliminating patents?

355 JPL17  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:47:06am

re: #275 EmmmieG

They were chanting "Yes we can," which I seem to recall was a campaign slogan for someone. I forget the name.

UGH

356 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:47:24am

re: #346 avanti

I agree tort reform is a part of the cost, but not a significant one compared to drug and high tech procedures.

How much of the cost of those treatments and procedures are defensive?

357 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:47:30am

re: #354 MandyManners

Did he really propose eliminating patents?

No.

358 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:47:34am

re: #349 FrogMarch

Really? Well, it gives me the creeps.

Especially when the government is taking it over.

359 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:47:41am

re: #354 MandyManners

Did he really propose eliminating patents?

that really struck me too. that is bad.

360 MikeAlv77  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:47:59am

re: #347 DistantThunder

I was just in the drug store, and picked up their Minute Clinic brochure. No appointment and a doctor or nurse practitioner available to treat average family illnesses. Cheap, cheap cheap since it's partially subsidized by the drug store that will sell you the medicine after the appointment.

Now THAT's genius.

And they did it all without any government intervention. We have the same thing here with CVS. (Here being outside Philly...)

Ain't free markets a wonderful thing

361 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:48:00am

re: #317 buzzsawmonkey

Three stanzas and a bridge--how much more do you need?

The odds were a hundred to one against him
The world thought the debt was too high to climb
But teabags from Missouri never incensed them
Oh, I wasn�t a bit concerned
For from hist�ry I had learned
How many, many times the bill had turned


I'm not good at this, as you can see, but at least it's an effort.

362 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:48:05am

re: #357 Killgore Trout

No.

He wanted to shorten the time on patents.

363 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:48:08am

I'm watching on CNN so I can see the whole thing without Fox's idiotic interruptions.

364 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:48:35am

re: #336 NukeAtomrod

Looks like Fox News has decided this is a staged event. They've moved on to analysis. I don't think this will help Obama to convince anyone.

CNN is live, and he's getting some good questions. i.e, single payer.

365 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:48:39am

re: #341 Cato the Elder

But English instruction does...

AFAIK, it is common (and considered correct) usage around Pittsburgh, leaving off the "to be" after "needs".

366 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:48:50am

re: #332 MandyManners

I corrected it right after my other brain cell got going. (Just got up from a nap.)


Mandy! You've been connected to that bed, or dreaming about it, since 8am this morning. WAKE UP!! {mm}

367 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:48:50am

I am trying to listen to him and read the comments at the same time. Not working very well. YOu have to listen to him very closely.

368 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:48:55am

I would love it if some intrepid journalist would ask him two questions:

1. Since the legislation hasn't been finalized yet and you are not the author of the various health care bills that have yet to be voted on, how can you "rebut" specific claims?

2. How on earth can you claim the yet to be unveiled health care bill will not add to the deficit when the CBO estimates the house version will cost @240 billion over the next 10 years and the senate version will cost @1 Trillion?

369 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:48:57am

Something he said when this first opened is, "You won’t have to wait in any lines." I know his point is to assuage fears, but this is something he can't promise. There could be very long waits. I believe there will be literal lines and even if you're not standing in one, you're waiting.

370 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:49:08am

re: #357 Killgore Trout

No.

I hope not because a patent is an incentive to make better medicine.

371 JPL17  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:49:21am

re: #279 tradewind

Si su puede.

How do you say "UGH" in Spanish?

372 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:49:32am
373 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:49:43am

re: #370 MandyManners

He wants to shorten patent times, which are already too short, in my opinion.

374 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:49:46am

re: #362 Baier

He wanted to shorten the time on patents.

How long?

375 eschew_obfuscation  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:49:49am

They may say that the attendees at Obama's "Town Hall" were not screened, but I find it pretty unlikely that there were only cheers and vigorous applause for his opening remarks.

376 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:49:52am

re: #341 Cato the Elder

Why did you down ding my #282?

377 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:49:57am

re: #353 drcordell

Oh, well if Fox News has decided it's a staged event then it must be true. Who's doing the commentary now? Glenn Beck or Alex Jones?

Just stating my observations... maybe they switched to analysis because it's bad television. There seems to be a surprising lack of conflict, considering the previous town halls we've seen.

378 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:49:58am

I do wish he would answer questions more directly and not drift into tangents constantly.

379 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:49:58am

re: #368 Wendya

Instant dingification for you.

380 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:49:59am

re: #371 JPL17

Aye!

381 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:00am

re: #330 sattv4u2

THOSE BASTARD DRUG COMPANIES

How dare they want to hold onto their patents

After 10 + years of research and developemnet, passing FDA muster, marketing (etc) ,., how DARE they want to get some of that money back!!
//

If the government starts busting patents, who in the hell is going to step up with billions for R&D?

382 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:05am

re: #366 apachegunner

Mandy! You've been connected to that bed, or dreaming about it, since 8am this morning. WAKE UP!! {mm}

I need an IV for coffee.

383 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:10am

re: #368 Wendya

I would love it if some intrepid journalist would ask him two questions:

1. Since the legislation hasn't been finalized yet and you are not the author of the various health care bills that have yet to be voted on, how can you "rebut" specific claims?

2. How on earth can you claim the yet to be unveiled health care bill will not add to the deficit when the CBO estimates the house version will cost @240 billion over the next 10 years and the senate version will cost @1 Trillion?

To answer #2 - because you are completely ignoring the cost to American taxpayers, the Government, and American businesses if we do nothing. This bill is not being created in a vacuum.

384 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:27am

re: #362 Baier

He wanted to shorten the time on patents.

Just to be clear; you're not misspelling "patients", right?

/

385 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:36am

re: #363 Charles

I'm watching on CNN so I can see the whole thing without Fox's idiotic interruptions.

The only decent thing Fox ever did was "Firefly". And then the canceled it.

386 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:37am

re: #373 Baier

He wants to shorten patent times, which are already too short, in my opinion.

Does he disapprove of money as an incentive?

387 SteveC  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:37am

re: #363 Charles

I'm watching on CNN so I can see the whole thing without Fox's idiotic interruptions.

What's CSPAN doing? They usually bring the camera and leave the color commentary at home.

388 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:41am

re: #350 drcordell

Your understanding is completely wrong. The entire point of "end of life" counseling is that the patient chooses how their care should proceed, before they are unable to do so and someone else has to make that choice for them. Currently, that "someone else" is either an insurance company or a doctor and NOT the patient.

Sorry, I'm referring to how Sarah Palin was using it with regards to her son, needing emergent care at some point, and being denied, not preparing him for a predictable death. There was the story about the guy in oregon where the state said they wouldn't pay for another round of chemo but they would give him euthanasia counseling. He was middle age, vigorous, fought it, and survived with another round of chemo. But he was shocked that that the Monopoly state insurance had so much power over his life.

389 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:45am

re: #374 MandyManners

How long?

He didn't say.

390 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:53am

"The post office is always having problems." Who runs the post office??

391 hoffmonster  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:55am

re: #339 tradewind

that's the nefarious reason, I'm looking for a reason you can explain to the public, and have them actually get it...:)

392 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:57am

re: #382 MandyManners

I need an IV for coffee.

Do what I do. I buy Mt. Dew in packs of 6 24-oz bottles. 1 a day, baby, 1 a day.

/I lay off on weekends so I'm not THAT fat, I promise

393 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:50:59am

re: #382 MandyManners

I need an IV for coffee.

That won't be covered

394 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:51:03am

The one question I want asked is:

After the stimulus failed to work, after the bank bailouts failed to work, after the auto bailouts failed to work, President Obama, what makes you and Congress qualified to make any decisions for the American people on their health care?

395 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:51:10am

re: #385 Cato the Elder

The only decent thing Fox ever did was "Firefly". And then the canceled it.

Simpsons and Married With Children...after that...not much

396 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:51:25am

re: #322 DistantThunder

My understanding is that death panel is the decision board that says if you're elderly and probably going to die within 5 years, they're not going to be paying for interventions now that average people might want. Like when people have a 20% chance of cancer survival - but want the treatment.

When the panel says No treatment - that's a death panel.

There is no "panel" when you reach age 65, you can discuss end of life issues with your doctor, and not have to pay for it. You can do it once every five years, or never go if you choose.

397 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:51:25am
398 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:51:42am

re: #381 Wendya

If the government starts busting patents, who in the hell is going to step up with billions for R&D?

No one.

399 Locker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:51:58am

re: #346 avanti

Article I read recently (looking for it now) regarding waste in health care pegged the top two reason as unnecessary testing to avoid liability and claim filing. I can see how tort reform may affect the unnecessary testing. As far as the claim filing, seems like you'd need single payer to straighten that one out.

400 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:52:00am

I can't believe they trotted out a little girl to call protesters mean.

Oh wait, we're talking about Democrats. There's no depths to which they won't sink.

Oh yeah, this isn't staged, right?

401 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:52:04am

re: #360 MikeAlv77

And they did it all without any government intervention. We have the same thing here with CVS. (Here being outside Philly...)

Ain't free markets a wonderful thing

I'm east of Philly about 20 miles near medford. I was talking about CVS. And no medical records in the hands of government.

402 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:52:09am

re: #389 Baier

He didn't say.

Mere detail.

403 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:52:17am

re: #395 Desert Dog

Simpsons and Married With Children...after that...not much

24 and Fringe

404 SteveC  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:52:22am

re: #377 NukeAtomrod

Just stating my observations... maybe they switched to analysis because it's bad television. There seems to be a surprising lack of conflict, considering the previous town halls we've seen.

It's the President. Presidents usually bring a lot of armed people who frown on tomfoolery.

405 jill e  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:52:23am

Hello, my name is Tommy Flanagan, and I'm a member of Pathological Liars Anonymous. In fact.. I'm the president of the organization!

I didn't always lie. No, when I was a kid, I told the truth. But then one day, I got caught stealing money out of my mother's purse. I lied. I told her it was homework - that my teacher told me to do it. And she got fired! Yeah, that's what happened!

After that, lying was easy for me. I lied about my age and joined the army. I was thirteen at the time. Yeah.. I went to Vietnam, and I was injured catching a mortar shell in my teeth. And they made me a three-star general! And then I got a job in journalism, writing for the National Enquire.. er, Geographic! Yeah.. I was making twenty thousand a ye.. month! In fact, I won the Pulitzer Prize that year! Yeah, that's the ticket.

And then my cousin died - Joe Louis - and I took it hard. Maybe too hard - I tried to kill myself. Yeahh.. I did kill myself! Sure! I was medically dead for a week and a half! It was a woman that brought me out of it - Indira Gandhi! Yeah, right.. And she told me about Pathological Liars Anonymous.

Oh, you'd be surprised how many famous people belong. In fact.. at one of the meetings I met my wife - Morgan Fairchild! Yes, I'm a change man now, and all because of Pathological Liars Anonymous. Why, I - I even have my picture on the cover of Newsweek magazine. Yeah. Every day! Yeah.. that's the ticket! Yeah, you betcha!

406 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:52:27am

re: #377 NukeAtomrod

Just stating my observations... maybe they switched to analysis because it's bad television. There seems to be a surprising lack of conflict, considering the previous town halls we've seen.

There's a surprising lack of conflict because the nirthers have been kept out. When you eliminate the people who are opposed to anything Obama says or does because they believe he is a Kenyan Nazi Socialist who will euthanize their babies and kill their parents, a real discussion can happen.

407 KenJen  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:52:34am

I wonder how much it would cost to put this bill on a ballot and let the American people vote on it?

408 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:52:37am

re: #402 MandyManners

Right now it is 20 years, and there are many that argue it needs to be extended.

409 aggieann  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:52:42am

re: #344 Leonidas Hoplite

The half-life on the false crisis they created is rapidly diminishing and then they'll have to go through the trouble of ginning up a new one.

I believe you're right, and I'm curious about what the next one will be. My guess is fighting crime, aka gun control.

410 Equable  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:52:52am

re: #400 JammieWearingFool

I can believe it.

411 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:01am

re: #378 WinterCat

I do wish he would answer questions more directly and not drift into tangents constantly.

Especially when we're all going to cosine on this vast expensive boondoggle.

412 MikeAlv77  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:05am

re: #401 DistantThunder

I'm east of Philly about 20 miles near medford. I was talking about CVS. And no medical records in the hands of government.

Medford, NJ? I'm on the other side in PA. Out west near Downingtown...

413 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:09am

re: #407 KenJen

I wonder how much it would cost to put this bill on a ballot and let the American people vote on it?

They did vote on substantive healthcare reform. It was a key issue in the past Presidential election.

414 Equable  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:16am

Especially the jazz about the mean signs and not knowing what to believe.

415 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:17am

re: #278 avanti

Reform is badly needed, costs are spinning out of control.

No; they're rising at pretty much the rate they've risen at for the last few decades. There's nothing particularly notable about the current rate of increase.

And they are completely controlled - by the marketplace.Which supplies just as many medical resources as the market demands, at prices fixed by that demand and the finite supply available.

Now, it might be worthwhile examining some of the forces that distort this particular segment of the marketplace - the hidden cost of procedures that are masked by insurance coverage, and the hidden cost of insurance which is masked by employer-provided plans.

But suggesting that costs are wildly escalating or out of control is ridiculous, alarmist and simply not true.

416 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:17am

He wants mental health covered under the plan.

417 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:20am

re: #392 thedopefishlives

Do what I do. I buy Mt. Dew in packs of 6 24-oz bottles. 1 a day, baby, 1 a day.

/I lay off on weekends so I'm not THAT fat, I promise

I saw somewhere someone had invented an engine, internal combustion engine, that ran on mountain dew. hows that stomach doing?

418 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:28am
' What would have been the impact if every one in American had access to mental health care'?...


Obama would never have made it to the WH.

419 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:30am

I can hardly believe this. After drumming up all this hysteria, promoting "joining the mob!" and another BS, Fox News has now stopped covering Obama's town hall.

Unreal.

420 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:31am

re: #388 DistantThunder

Sorry, I'm referring to how Sarah Palin was using it with regards to her son, needing emergent care at some point, and being denied, not preparing him for a predictable death. There was the story about the guy in oregon where the state said they wouldn't pay for another round of chemo but they would give him euthanasia counseling. He was middle age, vigorous, fought it, and survived with another round of chemo. But he was shocked that that the Monopoly state insurance had so much power over his life.

I thought that it was a woman in Oregon who was denied chemo, but was offered euthanasia. Or did this also happen to another person?

421 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:43am

re: #383 drcordell

To answer #2 - because you are completely ignoring the cost to American taxpayers, the Government, and American businesses if we do nothing. This bill is not being created in a vacuum.

Are you one of those people who believe all money created in this country is owned by the government and then parceled out to the citizens? I can't see how you could possibly come up with that answer unless you really believed that to be true. You see, if I receive a 2% discount on the cost of my insurance or if my insurance costs rise at 4%, that does not add or subtract from the federal deficit.

422 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:49am

re: #352 realwest

How does that compare to Oregon's State health insurance laws and
how do either of them compare to the bill/proposal that President Obama is now pushing for?

Oregon, not sure.

From what I've seen the WA model is similar to the current overall bill, at least the stated goals.

The moral of the story is it has all but killed insurance in WA state. When it happens nationwide what options will be left?

423 pat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:53:51am

If waste could be eliminated, it would ave been.

424 JohnAdams  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:04am

Let's face it, there is a huge trough of cash devoted to health care in this country, and this is the government piggy muscling in to get an even bigger cut. They will screw it up like they screw up everything else. I cannot stand watching this ass-clown lie to my face and ask me to dance like a monkey. (Head finally explodes, heading off for a bike ride).

425 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:04am

The kid asked a good question.

426 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:05am

Good question. How are we going to pay for it? I think we all want to know.

427 Rexatosis  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:08am

#321 drcordell

There is no single BlueShield/BlueCross plan, there a many BlueShield/BlueCross plans available through the association. These plans are provided by insurance companies and it doesn't really matter if the purchaser of these plans is the federal government, a private individual, or small business one is still purchasing private health insurance. This is not medicaid nor medicare and is not what is being promoted by either the House, Senate, nor Obama.

And it is Rexatosis not rex.

428 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:10am

re: #413 drcordell

They did vote on substantive healthcare reform. It was a key issue in the past Presidential election.

And if you believe that, I have seafront property in Wyoming I can sell you.

429 JPL17  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:12am

re: #380 Baier

Gracias!

430 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:14am

re: #363 Charles

I'm watching on CNN so I can see the whole thing without Fox's idiotic interruptions.

I switched between Fox, CNN and MSNBC until my daughter got so bored that she begged me to put on The Jetsons. I doubt I'll miss much, because the crowd is obviously not the general populace.

431 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:24am

re: #419 Charles

I can hardly believe this. After drumming up all this hysteria, promoting "joining the mob!" and another BS, Fox News has now stopped covering Obama's town hall.

Unreal.

They are sensationalists. They only want the drama.

432 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:25am

re: #365 wrenchwench

AFAIK, it is common (and considered correct) usage around Pittsburgh, leaving off the "to be" after "needs".

That's how yinz talk up there? :)

433 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:29am

Now this is what I call a tingle running up your leg!

Taliban chief killed while getting 'leg massage'

Taliban chief Baitullah Mehsud was killed last week in a CIA drone attack while getting a leg massage on the roof of his father-in-law's house,... On Wednesday night, U.S. surveillance in Pakistan spied a man on the roof of Mehsud's father-in-law's home in South Waziristan.

The description was of a "short, stocky man who was following the physical description" of Mehsud, CNN said, citing the intelligence official.

A woman was massaging the man's leg and the Central Intelligence Agency knew Mehsud had diabetes, experienced pain in his legs, and often sought relief in that way, the report said.

Officials already had authorization from Obama to strike Mehsud if they thought they had a clear shot.

A US counterterrorism official told AFP on Monday "there are strong indications (Mehsud) is dead" following a missile attack launched from unmanned aircraft.

"No one is expecting him home for dinner tonight," the official said.

A top Taliban commander, Hakimullah Mehsud, earlier Monday challenged Pakistan to prove that Mehsud was dead, insisting in a telephone call to AFP that the warlord was still alive...Hakimullah Mehsud said the insurgent group would issue a message in the next three to four days proving Baitullah Mehsud was still alive.

Hakimullah said Baitullah was only "a bit sick."

Ok, maybe he's a feeling a little under the weather. A hellfire missile up the ass will do that to a fellow.

434 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:38am

re: #334 CyanSnowHawk

Kind of let her feelings be known yesterday, didn't she?

Jeez - she went all phosphorescent on Billy, didn't she? Have issues much, Hill?

435 Miss Molly  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:40am

For me this event is totally staged. Tickets were given out to "community organizers" to pick the people who would attend. Obama would not show up at a meeting with ordinary people where he could not control what might be said. More importantly Obama wants to make sure he always looks good in front of any crowd. The poll numbers are sinking his health care plan and hopefully will sink him along with.

436 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:40am

re: #419 Charles

I can hardly believe this. After drumming up all this hysteria, promoting "joining the mob!" and another BS, Fox News has now stopped covering Obama's town hall.

Unreal.

Are you actually surprised? The President speaking directly to the electorate and informing them of actual facts is anathema to their entire organization. They can't make money fearmongering off an informed populace.

437 JPL17  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:44am

re: #386 MandyManners

Does he disapprove of money as an incentive?

Rhetorical question?

438 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:55am

re: #408 Baier

Right now it is 20 years, and there are many that argue it needs to be extended.

Greedy capitalist pigs.

439 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:57am

re: #336 NukeAtomrod

Looks like Fox News has decided this is a staged event. They've moved on to analysis. I don't think this will help Obama to convince anyone.

CNN here.

Still, I'm leery of the idea that these people were not screened.

440 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:54:58am

re: #376 midwestgak

Why did you down ding my #282?

What, we need to explain dings now?

Because it is, um, factually incorrect. My ENT prescribed an anti-reflux drug twice a day. Insurance company pays for once. Because they know better than my doctor, see?

Read my limerick above.

441 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:00am

I'm just thankful he's getting it over with now and not during primetime.

442 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:07am

re: #432 Mad Al-Jaffee

That's how yinz talk up there? :)

Exactly, so I hear! I was just a visitor. :)

443 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:09am

re: #419 Charles

I can hardly believe this. After drumming up all this hysteria, promoting "joining the mob!" and another BS, Fox News has now stopped covering Obama's town hall.

Unreal.

I think they don't want their audience to actually see a reasonable debate. The questions and answers are better than I expected. Everybody seems to be behaving.

444 gregb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:15am

re: #290 HoosierHoops

I didn't understand that.. When my mom was close to passing the insurance paid for Counseling about end of life issues and hospice and everything we could expect in the coming weeks..
Death Panel talk is ludicrous and misrepresents a valuable and necessary
benfit for the family.

"Death Panel" is the common name for the UK Clinical Advisory Board as related to NHS governance issues. I don't see any problems using the term as it's in wide common practice.

The whole issue I see here is, there's a very loud voice on the left that are screaming that 'for-profit medicine is unethical'. I think killing off for-profit medicine would have a severe chilling effect on medical research--something that might preclude cures for cancer, aids, treatments for heart disease, genetic diseases, vaccines, obesity, diabetes and hundreds of other promising research areas.

[Link: scienceroll.com...]

445 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:17am

re: #354 MandyManners

Parents. He plans to eliminate parents.

//

446 tomg51spence  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:21am

As if there was nothing else that could be done with the money - such as paying off the existing debt.

447 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:29am

re: #385 Cato the Elder

The only decent thing Fox ever did was "Firefly". And then the canceled it.

Upding for Firefly!

448 mrbaracuda  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:30am

Evening, lizards! Have fun with your dose of health care craziness, my American lizard-friends. :-D

449 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:35am

re: #411 JamesTKirk

Especially when we're all going to cosine on this vast expensive boondoggle.


spoken like a true mathmetition

450 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:44am

ooops

451 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:45am

re: #416 WinterCat

He wants mental health covered under the plan.

He has to throw some pork to his most ardent supporters.

452 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:47am

re: #406 drcordell

There's a surprising lack of conflict because the nirthers have been kept out. When you eliminate the people who are opposed to anything Obama says or does because they believe he is a Kenyan Nazi Socialist who will euthanize their babies and kill their parents, a real discussion can happen.

How are these protesters lumped in with nirthers? Can you not argue anything without cheap insults?

453 KenJen  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:48am

re: #413 drcordell

They did vote on substantive healthcare reform. It was a key issue in the past Presidential election.

You know I mean this bill specificly. I'd be willing to bet 70 percent or more would vote against it.

454 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:53am

re: #396 avanti

There is no "panel" when you reach age 65, you can discuss end of life issues with your doctor, and not have to pay for it. You can do it once every five years, or never go if you choose.

The Panel is like the pain panel that I'm dealing with here in NJ. They have denied my MRI. I probably need surgery to repair or remove my torn cervical disk. They won't give me the MRI. I'm stuck. It was a panel that turn down the request by my doctor and several appeals.

When my brain damaged sister in law almost died with congestive heart failure, they used extraordinary measures to keep her going, and she lived for another year. Some one made that decision to abide by what she and her family wanted. But what if they all wanted the treatment and the government said NO like they do regularly in the UK? The bureaucrats granting those wishes or not are the panel I'm talking about.

455 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:56am

re: #436 drcordell

The President speaking directly to the electorate and informing them of actual facts is anathema to their entire organization.

If only that were happening.

456 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:55:56am

I loved Firefly.

457 Bob Dillon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:56:00am

re: #247 FrogMarch

She should have called it what it is - "End of life consultation".

Which is just as creepy, is you ask me.

Or "rationing" which is at the core of this issue.

458 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:56:07am

re: #416 WinterCat

He wants mental health covered under the plan.

I imagine he would.

459 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:56:07am

re: #416 WinterCat

He wants mental health covered under the plan.

Good. It's covered under my plan and most others, and it's a perfectly valid medical service.

460 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:56:11am

re: #413 drcordell

They did vote on substantive healthcare reform. It was a key issue in the past Presidential election.

They also voted for a uniter that would transcend the polarizing bickering that has plagued the political landscape for years too...how's that working out? The voted for a man that promised tax cuts for everyone and would curb unnecessary spending and end earmarks. They voted for a man that would be transparent and let everyone see the bills he was going to sign into laws before he signed them.

They voted for one thing and got something else...

461 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:56:13am

re: #443 Killgore Trout

Translation: Nobody is saying shiite.

462 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:56:20am

re: #413 drcordell

"Key issue"? I didn't notice it as particularly an interest.

I remember a lot of empty rhetoric, not much else. As unenthusiastic as I was about McCain (and remain), I was horrified by Obama's emptiness then and now. What substantive issues did he ever address? That he didn't contradict a week later? That he didn't try to walk back?

No, it was all hope and change and "We are the ones we've been waiting for" and "The night the planet began to heal."

Absolutely horrifying.

Health care was last really an issue during Bill Clinton's first campaign.

463 Equable  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:56:25am

Sure the kid asked a good question, but you don't ask the used car salesperson a question about the other used car salesman down the street.

464 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:56:28am

re: #440 Cato the Elder

What, we need to explain dings now?

Because it is, um, factually incorrect. My ENT prescribed an anti-reflux drug twice a day. Insurance company pays for once. Because they know better than my doctor, see?

Read my limerick above.

Updinged in sympathy with the reflux.

465 buster  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:56:31am

re: #400 JammieWearingFool

I can't believe they trotted out a little girl to call protesters mean.

Oh wait, we're talking about Democrats. There's no depths to which they won't sink.

Oh yeah, this isn't staged, right?

I think it is over staged to the point of being painfully obvious. Spontaneous chants of "Yes We Can"?

I was born at night...but not last night!

466 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:56:33am

re: #444 gregb

"Death Panel" is the common name for the UK Clinical Advisory Board as related to NHS governance issues. I don't see any problems using the term as it's in wide common practice.

Sorry, I don't believe this without some proof. I extremely doubt that the UK government would label anything with a name like that.

467 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:56:40am

re: #425 Charles

The kid asked a good question.

Who wrote it for her?

468 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:57:04am

re: #435 Miss Molly

For me this event is totally staged. Tickets were given out to "community organizers" to pick the people who would attend. Obama would not show up at a meeting with ordinary people where he could not control what might be said. More importantly Obama wants to make sure he always looks good in front of any crowd. The poll numbers are sinking his health care plan and hopefully will sink him along with.

Do you have a link for that?

469 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:57:11am

re: #431 WinterCat

They are sensationalists. They only want the drama.

Fox is merely, as I've said before, going back to their sensationalist, tabloidesque pre-9/11 selves. People often forget that Fox News was a laughingstock of cable news until 9/11.

470 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:57:25am

re: #437 JPL17

Rhetorical question?

Yep.

471 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:57:32am

re: #405 jill e

Hello, my name is Tommy Flanagan, and I'm a member of Pathological Liars Anonymous.

Honorary Chairwoman, Sarah Palin.

472 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:57:39am

Remember this quote:

"I won't sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit."

473 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:57:40am

re: #459 SixDegrees

Good. It's covered under my plan and most others, and it's a perfectly valid medical service.

I only wish more was covered under my Canadian medicare.

474 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:57:43am

re: #469 Honorary Yooper

Fox is merely, as I've said before, going back to their sensationalist, tabloidesque pre-9/11 selves. People often forget that Fox News was a laughingstock of cable news until 9/11.

I never watch them. They are ridiculous.

475 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:57:46am

re: #395 Desert Dog

Simpsons and Married With Children...after that...not much

Get A Life, King of the Hill, Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles, Arrested Development.

476 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:58:03am

re: #445 Kenneth

Parents. He plans to eliminate parents.

//

It Takes a Village, or some crap like that...

477 gymnast  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:58:10am

It appears that many of the affirmative action components of the Bill regarding medical education and special support for medical facilities might be looked at as a "stealth reparations program". This bill is loaded with so much extraneous junk that it is a joke.

478 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:58:14am

re: #421 Wendya

Are you one of those people who believe all money created in this country is owned by the government and then parceled out to the citizens? I can't see how you could possibly come up with that answer unless you really believed that to be true. You see, if I receive a 2% discount on the cost of my insurance or if my insurance costs rise at 4%, that does not add or subtract from the federal deficit.

I hate to break it to you, but every U.S. dollar is technically owned by the Government. It's a fiat currency. Its value is derived solely from trust that the Government says it has worth. If they decide tomorrow to create the "New Dollar" and abolish the current dollar, your dollars become worthless. That's how it works.

Moving back to healthcare, healthcare and the Federal Government are inexorably linked, and will be forever. As long as we, as a nation, have decided that we will not let people die in the streets, the government will be involved in healthcare. So yes, it is in the governments best interest to try and make our healthcare system run as smoothly as possible.

479 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:58:17am

re: #419 Charles

I can hardly believe this. After drumming up all this hysteria, promoting "joining the mob!" and another BS, Fox News has now stopped covering Obama's town hall.

Unreal.

Why? Is there a dwarf-bowling tournament they have to cover?

480 Cato  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:58:28am

re: #24 DistantThunder

I have been thinking about this and, I think, ultimately our infinitely wise founders gave us a way out. All we have to do is elect a conservative or libertarian president who is willing to use in broad strokes the sole unilateral power granted the president in the constitution -- the power of pardon.

ALL statism is prefaced on the power of government over the individual. That power is transmitted by law. The president has the power to nullify law by pardoning those in breach. There are no limitations on the power. The president could pardon EVERY citizen of the US FOR ALL TIME. The law stays on the books, but it is unenforceable.

I am currently looking through British history to see if there were such cases that the founders had knowledge of. It seems as if there is, thus there is a foundation for the president's use of the power would be in accordance with the founders' intent.

Conservatives and libertarians should start thinking about this power. It may be necessary.

481 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:58:32am

re: #445 Kenneth

Parents. He plans to eliminate parents.

//

So would The Kid until he needed a ride here or a ride there.

482 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:58:33am

He has just reiterated, no raise in taxes for anyone who makes $250K or less.

483 SteveC  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:58:36am

re: #426 EmmmieG

Good question. How are we going to pay for it? I think we all want to know.

Obama: *Any answer*

Questioner: That won't work, Mr. President! This country is operating in a deficit. I can't buy anything when I can't afford it, and neither can you!

484 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:58:47am

re: #466 Charles

Not the official name, it's a nick-name. And not without a dose of British dark humor.

485 flyovercountry  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:59:03am

re: #255 Charles

She should have called it what it is - "End of life consultation".

Which is just as creepy, is you ask me.


That's what insurance companies call it right now. It's a completely standard type of care offered by many companies.


Charles, you are absolutely correct, the best insurance companies do offer this already, and it is a Godsend. The term, Death Panels," is absurd and counter productive. But Palin, who, I no longer wish to be seen as a leader of the GOP does have a point. Lost in this debate over her choice of words, is the concept of beaurocrats making decisions regarding the course of treatment for any citizen. Please empasize the word any in the previous sentence. I don't believe that histerics is the way to convince anybody of anything. Thanks to former Governor Palin's histerics, the fact that the government will have the tools in place to deny care based on age or handicap, or for any reason the government sees fit is lost. I have no doubt that the intentions of those in congress today are completely altruistic, but what about those that follow? This plan is just plainly, flat out a bad idea.

486 MikeAlv77  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:59:08am

re: #472 Charles

Remember this quote:

"I won't sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit."

Rotating title nomination right there...

487 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:59:18am

re: #431 WinterCat

They are sensationalists. They only want the drama.

You can only watch so many managed events before you become bored. When was the last time any President held a real meeting with a wide variety of supporters and detractors?

488 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:59:25am

All our medical records in the hands of government bureaucrats - but they'll be protected by privacy laws. hahahaha.

489 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:59:36am

re: #460 Desert Dog

They also voted for a uniter that would transcend the polarizing bickering that has plagued the political landscape for years too...how's that working out? The voted for a man that promised tax cuts for everyone and would curb unnecessary spending and end earmarks. They voted for a man that would be transparent and let everyone see the bills he was going to sign into laws before he signed them.

They voted for one thing and got something else...

HEY! HEY! HEY! - Too much talk from someone who made the mess, here! We can't have any of that! Shut up and listen!

/

490 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:59:40am

re: #440 Cato the Elder

What, we need to explain dings now?

Because it is, um, factually incorrect. My ENT prescribed an anti-reflux drug twice a day. Insurance company pays for once. Because they know better than my doctor, see?

Read my limerick above.

Well then, that's because the original policy was written to cover it that way and why the premium you paid was what it was.

Did you read your policy and what it intend to cover? If you did, then I will read your limerick above./

491 Pullus Iulius  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:59:41am

re: #472 Charles

Remember this quote:

"I won't sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit."

And the check is in the mail.

492 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:59:43am

Tax cuts being rolled back. That is a tax increase, no matter how you spin it, Mr. President.

493 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:59:57am

re: #478 drcordell

I hate to break it to you, but every U.S. dollar is technically owned by the Government

Tuesday Stupid.

494 Miss Molly  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:00:06am

re: #420 Alouette

It was a women in Oregon. The State denied her the medication she needed however the drug company that manufactured the drug gave it to her for free.

495 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:00:10am

re: #457 Bobibutu

Or "rationing" which is at the core of this issue.

Ezekiel Emanuel wouldn't ration. He'd merely attenuate the chances that anyone below 15 and above 40 would get an organ transplant.

496 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:00:10am

re: #488 DistantThunder

All our medical records in the hands of government bureaucrats - but they'll be protected by privacy laws. hahahaha.

You mean like the way no government bureaucrats jumped on Joe the Plumber's private data?

497 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:00:20am

re: #419 Charles

I can hardly believe this. After drumming up all this hysteria, promoting "joining the mob!" and another BS, Fox News has now stopped covering Obama's town hall.

Unreal.

The biggest incidental expense at Fox News headquarters is new fire extinguishers every day to put out the burning trousers.

498 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:00:27am

re: #278 avanti

Reform is badly needed, costs are spinning out of control.

Credit where it's due. The government is very, very good at spinning costs out of control.

499 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:00:34am

re: #472 Charles

Remember this quote:

"I won't sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit."

He's such a kidder!

500 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:00:37am

re: #482 WinterCat

He has just reiterated, no raise in taxes for anyone who makes $250K or less.

How big did his ears nose grow at THAT one?

501 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:00:46am

re: #433 Kenneth

I guess he didn't get a happy ending.

502 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:00:52am

re: #443 Killgore Trout

I think they don't want their audience to actually see a reasonable debate. The questions and answers are better than I expected. Everybody seems to be behaving.

Was there some debate? I guess I missed that.

503 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:01:00am

re: #447 jcm

Upding for Firefly!

Oh, yeah!

I'll have to go up and upding the ref~!

504 Aye Pod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:01:06am

Nutterdom on the U.S. Right

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

Good article on the Nutbaggers who are currently making the American right a laughing stock around the world:

David Aaronovitch turns his attention to the outbreak of bizarre behaviour that is presently scarring the face of the U.S. Right. Here’s a snippet:

One recent viral YouTube video shows a town hall meeting on health in Delaware in which the veteran Republican Mike Castle is being yelled at by an apparently insane woman flourishing a birth certificate in a plastic bag, and demanding (1) that Mr Obama produce his, and (2) that everyone present recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Which, amazingly, instead of calling for an ambulance, they do.

...

Let me take a step back and let you have some perspective on how this plays outside the constituency of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh fans.

Perhaps this is how you see these ’spontaneous’ protests:

Image: sons-liberty-222x300.jpg

… Well, I see this:

Image: front.jpg

Believe me, we’ve been here in the U.K. This is pretty much the sort of lunacy that we saw in the Labour Party during 19 long years of opposition, the low point of which was the 1983 election: in which Labour sought to return to No. 10 on a platform of unilateral disarmament that was premised upon the mistaken notion that the U.S.S.R. was a benign entity with only pacific ambitions. I suspect we’re going to see a little bit of this again, after next year’s election. I’m braced for it.

The thing is: moderate Republicans should NEVER have allowed their party to get to the state it is in now. I don’t know how they did.

What does this make me think about the U.S. Right?

Well, if a moderate Republican like Mike Castle - a descendant of Benjamin Franklin - is treated like this, it makes me think that the party is in a shambles, has no ability to control its base, and is unelectable.

Alternatively - and this is worse - the Republican leadership actually believes that rattling on about birth certificates, combined with a platform of creationism and gay bashing is an electoral winner. What that means is that there is no home for moderates (i.e. non mad people) in the Republican Party.

Parties win elections when they define the mainstream, and then occupy it. If the Republican Party genuinely believes that a citizens’ army of wild eyed Pledge of Allegiance chanters will ever represent the centre ground, they’re lost.

505 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:01:26am

re: #490 midwestgak

Well then, that's because the original policy was written to cover it that way and why the premium you paid was what it was.

Did you read your policy and what it intend to cover? If you did, then I will read your limerick above./

Moron.

506 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:01:32am

re: #452 JammieWearingFool

How are these protesters lumped in with nirthers? Can you not argue anything without cheap insults?

I'm not lumping in all people who are against healthcare reform with the nirthers. I am lumping in the people creating conflict at the healthcare town halls with the nirthers, because they seem to be nirthers. Here is Arlen Specter being booed when he calls Obama an American.

Youtube Video

I'm not just making this shit up.

507 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:01:34am

re: #472 Charles

Remember this quote:

"I won't sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit."

Every GOP member in Congress ought to have that printed on T-shirts they wear to their sessions.

They should have this graph printed on the back, too.

508 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:01:44am

re: #472 Charles

Remember this quote:

"I won't sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit."

I will. Forever, and ever.

Because it's a little late.

509 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:01:57am

re: #430 NukeAtomrod

I switched between Fox, CNN and MSNBC until my daughter got so bored that she begged me to put on The Jetsons. I doubt I'll miss much, because the crowd is obviously not the general populace.

All they need is four or five screamers and clappers to make it more to your liking. Just because the crowd is polite, does not mean they are not part of the general population. The loud voices do tend to make the those in opposition seem to be overrepresented.

510 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:01:58am

re: #482 WinterCat

He has just reiterated, no raise in taxes for anyone who makes $250K or less.

What, is he doing stand-up now?

511 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:02:02am

re: #488 DistantThunder

All our medical records in the hands of government bureaucrats - but they'll be protected by privacy laws. hahahaha.

All your illness are belong to us!

512 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:02:05am

The Fox coverage is hilarious.

513 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:02:11am

mathematicianre: #505 Cato the Elder

Moron.


do you keep a list of these names you throw nitwit?

514 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:02:12am

re: #472 Charles

Remember this quote:

"I won't sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit."

I'll believe that from Obama when I see him actually do it. Thus far, it's an empty promise.

515 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:02:23am

What a surprise that the health care unions back Obama's plan.

516 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:02:31am

Medicare money subsidizing folks that don't need it. Anyone know what he is referring to?

517 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:02:40am

Notice there is no outcry for grocery store reform that's because it's a LeapFrog game. Don't like one, hop to another, the first one gets better, hop back. It provides a means, method and opportunity for continuous improvement.

The government plays monopoly. It provides means, method and opportunity for entrenched incompetence and corruption.

The government ala Obama has whispered to the Leaf Frog companies: Hey, want to play Monopoly. It's collusions, and our real choices will be gone.

518 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:02:43am

Why is public support for the bill just cratering and cratering?

519 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:03:18am

re: #502 NukeAtomrod

Was there some debate? I guess I missed that.

I am waiting for the end, when they tell us that the Obamacare Plan can be yours for 12 easy payments of $199.00...

..."But wait, if you call now, we will give you these beautiful Ginsu knives and a miracle bamboo steamer, a $200 value, yours free if you call now...but, only if you call now."

520 SteveC  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:03:33am

re: #477 gymnast

It appears that many of the affirmative action components of the Bill regarding medical education and special support for medical facilities might be looked at as a "stealth reparations program". This bill is loaded with so much extraneous junk that it is a joke.

We've got a major Primary Care Physician shortage and it is projected to get worse. If you want to do anything regarding medical education, make becoming a PCP more attactive.

And then be prepared to wait 6 years while the new docs filter through med school and their residencies/internships.

521 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:03:38am

re: #472 Charles

Remember this quote:

"I won't sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit."

Well, we also expect our representatives to read what they're voting on, but that's too much to expect either.

It's all just so much politicking. And we'll have to live with the repercussions of the health care legislation long after Obama's gone from the scene because once a government program takes hold, eliminating it is next to impossible.

522 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:03:50am

We will be taxed extra for opting out of the government plan.
So we will pay for something we don't want.

Only the government could pedal such idiocy.

523 filetandrelease  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:03:56am

re: #278 avanti

Reform is badly needed, costs are spinning out of control.

Let the goverment handle it, they are expert at containing cost.

ROFLMAO

524 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:03:57am

re: #482 WinterCat

And his iterations have a track record of reversal that is staggering.

525 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:04:04am

re: #433 Kenneth

Now this is what I call a tingle running up your leg!

Taliban chief killed while getting 'leg massage'

Ok, maybe he's a feeling a little under the weather. A hellfire missile up the ass will do that to a fellow.

Massaging which leg? His third leg?

526 Bob Dillon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:04:23am

re: #494 Miss Molly

It was a women in Oregon. The State denied her the medication she needed however the drug company that manufactured the drug gave it to her for free.

But only for one year and that just expired - don't know if they extended it or not.

527 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:04:29am

re: #523 filetandrelease

Let the goverment handle it, they are expert at containing cost.

ROFLMAO

Ask California how good governments are at containing costs. The entire nation will look like us soon.

528 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:04:32am

Did anyone pick up on the UPS and FedEx vs the Post Office comment? He said the Post Office is always having problems. Doesn't that comparison undermine the whole idea of government run health care? I'm sure I missed part of it.

529 SteveC  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:04:34am

re: #488 DistantThunder

All our medical records in the hands of government bureaucrats - but they'll be protected by privacy laws. hahahaha.

Protected from us!

530 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:04:36am

re: #518 pianobuff

Why is public support for the bill just cratering and cratering?


I think much of that is progressives who've stopped supporting it because there's no single payer, public option might get dropped, Obama made a lot of concessions to the drug companies last week, etc.

531 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:04:38am

He is really difficult to follow. Now he is running down his confusing hypothetical how going to the doctor works.

532 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:04:43am

re: #525 Ward Cleaver

Hey, it's a Taliban chief taken out. No matter the massage, it had a happy ending.

533 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:04:52am

re: #482 WinterCat

He has just reiterated, no raise in taxes for anyone who makes $250K or less.

What a bunch of bullshit.

534 KingKenrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:04:53am

re: #526 Bobibutu

But only for one year and that just expired - don't know if they extended it or not.

The woman died.

535 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:05:03am

re: #529 SteveC

Protected from us!

The same goverment that managed to keep FAA records safe?

536 Dahveed  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:05:07am

Mr President - have you thought to yourself that if Nancy Pelosi and Henry Waxman support something, it might be best to go the opposite direction?

537 nightlight  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:05:09am

Where in the world does Obama get this idea that people can have the exact same test done over an over? I work in utilization review and this is just not the case!

538 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:05:12am

re: #472 Charles

Remember this quote:

"I won't sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit."

Remember it? I'm surprised those words didn't swell up in his throat, turn around and choke him! Or at least provoke a round of laughter from the studio audience.

539 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:05:13am

re: #521 lawhawk

Well, we also expect our representatives to read what they're voting on, but that's too much to expect either.

It's all just so much politicking. And we'll have to live with the repercussions of the health care legislation long after Obama's gone from the scene because once a government program takes hold, eliminating it is next to impossible.

Yeah, which is why the GOP is attempting to scare seniors into opposing healthcare reform by claiming it will cut their Medicare benefits. Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are around because they have by and large been extremely beneficial for America as a whole. The GOP knows that if the Dems can pass substantive healthcare reform they will lose an entire generation of voters, just as they did with the New Deal.

540 gregb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:05:14am

re: #313 Kenneth

My 4 year old loved Bob the Builder...last year. Apparently he's too old for it now. Last year his favorite one was Mambo #5.

Youtube Video
541 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:05:23am

re: #528 Silvergirl

Did anyone pick up on the UPS and FedEx vs the Post Office comment? He said the Post Office is always having problems. Doesn't that comparison undermine the whole idea of government run health care? I'm sure I missed part of it.

The Post Office is considering not delivering on Saturdays.

542 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:05:31am

re: #528 Silvergirl

Did anyone pick up on the UPS and FedEx vs the Post Office comment? He said the Post Office is always having problems. Doesn't that comparison undermine the whole idea of government run health care? I'm sure I missed part of it.

I'm sure it doesn't because, you know, The One when to Harvard and they are all wicked smahhhrt

543 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:05:37am

re: #516 WinterCat

Medicare money subsidizing folks that don't need it. Anyone know what he is referring to?

Ted Kennedy?

George Soros?

Alec Baldwin?

544 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:05:39am

Blue pill or red pill? Discuss.

545 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:05:40am

re: #518 pianobuff

Why is public support for the bill just cratering and cratering?

Because about 80% of the population is satisfied with what they have now. They know it's not perfect, far from it, but it works for them, and that is what they want.

546 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:05:58am

Primary care physicians make a whole lot more than specialists?

547 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:06:07am

re: #539 drcordell

Yeah, which is why the GOP is attempting to scare seniors into opposing healthcare reform by claiming it will cut their Medicare benefits. Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are around because they have by and large been extremely beneficial for America as a whole. The GOP knows that if the Dems can pass substantive healthcare reform they will lose an entire generation of voters, just as they did with the New Deal.

The health care plans to borrow from Medicare to fund portions of it. That's not a scare tactic, thats the truth.

548 Miss Molly  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:06:08am

If Obamacare is going to be so great why don't any member of Congress enroll in the program?

549 gregb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:06:08am

re: #447 jcm

Complete series downloadable on p2p nets...just now rediscovering them. I never heard of it until I saw and like "Serenity".

550 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:06:08am

re: #528 Silvergirl

Did anyone pick up on the UPS and FedEx vs the Post Office comment? He said the Post Office is always having problems. Doesn't that comparison undermine the whole idea of government run health care? I'm sure I missed part of it.

The Post office is deciding how to ration service. They've closed about 600 post offices, and they are going to limit delivery to 5 days. Morons.

551 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:06:15am

re: #535 acwgusa

The same government that can't keep top secret state defense and war records safe from the NYT.

552 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:06:22am

re: #472 Charles

Remember this quote:

"I won't sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit."

And yet, as I noted above, this bill was put together without first knowing how it will be paid for. They decided they have a laundry list of changes to make, and they'll get around to paying for it... at a later date...

553 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:06:23am

re: #528 Silvergirl

Did anyone pick up on the UPS and FedEx vs the Post Office comment? He said the Post Office is always having problems. Doesn't that comparison undermine the whole idea of government run health care? I'm sure I missed part of it.

I found that odd too. It was if he was saying that the Post Office is poorly run, so much so that FedEx and UPS can thrive... so let's get a Post Office version of Healthcare. Probably not the most artful way of selling to me.

Maybe I missed something so I'll check the transcript when it comes out.

554 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:06:24am

re: #544 Ward Cleaver

Blue pill or red pill? Discuss.

The blue pill leads to muscle soreness for a couple days after it's used.

555 Bob Dillon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:06:33am

re: #534 KingKenrod

The woman died.

Thanks - sorry to hear that.

556 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:06:34am

re: #544 Ward Cleaver

Blue pill or red pill? Discuss.

Purple pill.

557 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:07:01am

re: #546 WinterCat

Primary care physicians make a whole lot more than specialists?

Not hardly, but I guess it would depend on patient load, specialty, and how much their malpractice costs them.

558 Cato  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:07:05am

re: #554 CyanSnowHawk

LOL

559 Locker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:07:14am

re: #530 Killgore Trout

I think much of that is progressives who've stopped supporting it because there's no single payer, public option might get dropped, Obama made a lot of concessions to the drug companies last week, etc.

I would personally agree with Killgore here. As a single payer advocate I feel completely excluded from the conversation. I am definitely not motivated to go down to ye ole townhall meeting and verbally duke it out with the screamers.

560 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:07:23am

re: #546 WinterCat

Yeah, that'll happen.
Actually, it might when Obama puts limits on the number of specialists and caps their salaries.
You're laughing?
Think GM five years ago...

561 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:07:25am

re: #544 Ward Cleaver

Blue pill or red pill? Discuss.

Go ask Alice.

562 SteveC  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:07:34am

re: #532 tradewind

Hey, it's a Taliban chief taken out. No matter the massage, it had a happy ending.

ABC News last night (paraphrase): "... while reciveing a massage to relieve the pain caused by a Diabetic condition."

*Long Pause*

My Dad: "Well... I guess he isn't hurting anymore."

563 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:07:40am

re: #550 DistantThunder

The Post office is deciding how to ration service. They've closed about 600 post offices, and they are going to limit delivery to 5 days. Morons.

So no medical care on the weekends?

564 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:07:51am

I don't believe much of what I am hearing.

565 Digital Display  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:05am

re: #544 Ward Cleaver

Blue pill or red pill? Discuss.

What happens if you take both?

566 eschew_obfuscation  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:10am

re: #482 WinterCat

He has just reiterated, no raise in taxes for anyone who makes $250K or less.

That one's already been broken... tobacco taxes.

Cap & Trade, if it passes, will be a major additional one.

567 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:17am

I am impressed that he's ending with a skeptic.

568 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:22am

re: #562 SteveC

See... if he had only had Obamacare, there would have been a plan for that.

569 filetandrelease  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:26am

re: #471 Cato the Elder

Honorary Chairwoman, Sarah Palin.


You know better.

570 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:30am

More and more doctors are not taking new medicare patients, because medicare is decreasing reimbursements. I personally know a primary care doctor who left her practice last year because she was getting squeezed - more work for less money - and promises that would only get worse.

She is now teaching in Maine at a medical school.

571 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:37am

re: #562 SteveC

ABC News last night (paraphrase): "... while reciveing a massage to relieve the pain caused by a Diabetic condition."

*Long Pause*

My Dad: "Well... I guess he isn't hurting anymore."

His diabetes have been cured...by death...it's the ultimate cure...all of his other problems are over too

572 SteveC  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:42am

re: #546 WinterCat

Primary care physicians make a whole lot more less than specialists?

That's better!

573 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:46am

There's a guy speaking about how he turned himself in on the WH website.

574 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:46am

re: #566 eschew_obfuscation

That one's already been broken... tobacco taxes.

Cap & Trade, if it passes, will be a major additional one.

VAT.

575 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:53am

lol. This guy talking just told Obama he turned himself in on the WH website.

576 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:53am

re: #547 acwgusa

The health care plans to borrow from Medicare to fund portions of it. That's not a scare tactic, thats the truth.

You don't get it. The GOP message is oppose Government healthcare, it will kill you! And they also want to take away your Government healthcare!

577 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:08:53am

re: #565 HoosierHoops

What happens if you take both?

Hilarity ensues.

578 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:02am

re: #565 HoosierHoops

What happens if you take both?

errr, one pill makes you sleepy and one pill makes you sad?

579 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:03am

re: #570 DistantThunder

More and more doctors are not taking new medicare patients, because medicare is decreasing reimbursements. I personally know a primary care doctor who left her practice last year because she was getting squeezed - more work for less money - and promises that would only get worse.

She is now teaching in Maine at a medical school.

Same for Medicaid. Medicaid pays less on the dollar then Medicare.

580 lostlakehiker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:05am

It's hard to think of a question one might ask. All you'd get in response would be lies and evasions.

But there are rhetorical questions: How much protection money did the pharmaceutical companies agree to spend on commercials plugging your health plan, in exchange for promises that you'd go after other parts of the health industry rather than try to squeeze them for drastic price reductions?

Should the government establish a single-payer system for hosing (excuse me, housing) the populace? How is the logic of having the government take over health care not applicable to having the government arrange for everybody's housing? Isn't housing even more of a necessity than medical care, and even more expensive?

In Britain, the age cutoff for hip and knee replacement surgery is younger than the age of most people who need it. Just how cool is that? Isn't it a perfect example of how government can restrain spending and cut costs?

Shouldn't we throw out the results of the MCAT and all other tests and grading systems for who gets into medical school? This nonsense about "merit" has a disproportionate effect on minorities, after all. And would Al Sharpton be the ideal man to be czar of the medical school admissions system?

581 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:14am

re: #573 Silvergirl

There's a guy speaking about how he turned himself in on the WH website.

Whuuut?

582 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:15am

Nice answer, Mr. President.

583 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:19am

re: #545 CyanSnowHawk

Because about 80% of the population is satisfied with what they have now. They know it's not perfect, far from it, but it works for them, and that is what they want.

But why was the issue polling so much more favorably even a month ago? You think people had a chance to think about it and concluded maybe that the devil they know is better than the devil they didn't know?

584 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:25am

re: #522 FrogMarch

We will be taxed extra for opting out of the government plan.
So we will pay for something we don't want.

Only the government could pedal such idiocy.

Um? You meant "peddle" which means "to sell".

"Pedal" means, well, to pedal a bike, tryke, or pedal boat.

Finally, there is "petal", describing a portion of a flower.

585 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:31am

Obama is reassuring him that he's not collecting an enemies list.

586 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:35am

re: #556 MandyManners

Purple pill.

You're so bad./

587 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:35am

Yay! Defend the enemies list.

588 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:35am

My question would be, "Can you promise the American people that your program will not lead to a single payer system now, or ever in the future?"

589 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:36am

re: #553 pianobuff

I found that odd too. It was if he was saying that the Post Office is poorly run, so much so that FedEx and UPS can thrive... so let's get a Post Office version of Healthcare. Probably not the most artful way of selling to me.

Maybe I missed something so I'll check the transcript when it comes out.

Yet, the post office has a monopoly on certain parts of the system like your mail box .

590 MikeAlv77  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:46am

re: #571 Desert Dog

His diabetes have been cured...by death...it's the ultimate cure...all of his other problems are over too

Not really... he now facing his biggest problem for eternity.. and I don't think he will be sharing it with 72 virgins...

591 Bob Dillon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:46am

re: #564 WinterCat

I don't believe much of what I am hearing.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Dr. Krauthammer on Obama… Pay no Attention to What he SAYS; Rather, Watch What he DOES

592 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:50am

...and the kid ended up asking a good tough question.

593 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:09:53am

yes!! He just asked the $64,000 question. Why doesn't Congress take this plan.

594 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:10:00am

re: #540 gregb

last summer, when my 4 year old overheard the Obama campaign commercial, "Yes We Can!' he started singing "Bob the Builder, Can we fix it? Yes We can!"

I nearly collapse from laughter at the revelation: Obama lifted his campaign slogan from a children's show. How perfect!

595 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:10:09am

re: #578 apachegunner

errr, one pill makes you sleepy and one pill makes you sad?

One pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small.

596 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:10:13am

re: #583 pianobuff

But why was the issue polling so much more favorably even a month ago? You think people had a chance to think about it and concluded maybe that the devil they know is better than the devil they didn't know?

I think I saw this earlier, but his support on the left seems to be taking a beating. Progressives are upset that he is taking a more middle of the road stance and considering abandoning the public option.

597 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:10:17am

re: #576 drcordell

You don't get it. The GOP message is oppose Government healthcare, it will kill you! And they also want to take away your Government healthcare!

Don't go away mad; just go away.

598 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:10:18am

Charles, I doubt that you can do anything about it but that 'Evony' banner ad rotating on your site looks like porn. Someone saw it as they were passing while I was reading LGF and asked if I was looking at porn, quite seriously...needless to say it was an embarrassing situation.

599 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:10:44am

re: #576 drcordell

You don't get it. The GOP message is oppose Government healthcare, it will kill you! And they also want to take away your Government healthcare!

After seeing the care that the government provides to Medi-Care and the military, they can bloody well have it.

600 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:10:46am

re: #509 avanti

All they need is four or five screamers and clappers to make it more to your liking. Just because the crowd is polite, does not mean they are not part of the general population. The loud voices do tend to make the those in opposition seem to be overrepresented.

No. I just have a bad reaction to having smoke blown up my ass.

601 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:10:48am

re: #530 Killgore Trout

I think much of that is progressives who've stopped supporting it because there's no single payer, public option might get dropped, Obama made a lot of concessions to the drug companies last week, etc.

But those are good things.

602 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:10:48am

re: #593 WinterCat

yes!! He just asked the $64,000 question. Why doesn't Congress take this plan.

Congress already has a Federally administered health care plan.

603 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:10:49am

re: #595 Silvergirl

One pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small.

and the ones that mother gives you, don't do anything at all

604 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:11:03am

re: #565 HoosierHoops

What happens if you take both?

Purple.

605 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:11:05am

re: #598 Baier

Charles, I doubt that you can do anything about it but that 'Evony' banner ad rotating on your site looks like porn. Someone saw it as they were passing while I was reading LGF and asked if I was looking at porn, quite seriously...needless to say it was an embarrassing situation.

I'll check it out.

606 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:11:07am

Obama could sell this in Chicago, and other undereducated urban areas, but not anywhere else.

607 Seattle Rep  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:11:12am

I heard on talk radio KVI 570am Kirby Wilbur's show that there's audio out there of Obama on the campaign trail talking about how these meetings on healthcare would be broadcast on C-SPAN.
Did he forget?

608 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:11:13am

re: #561 Honorary Yooper

Go ask Alice.

When she's ten feet tall.

609 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:11:20am

Oh, Obama is saying that Congress and other Govt folks can get a better deal because there are more of them to drive down the cost. Not a straight answer here. Blah, Blah, Blah. Where is your answer Obama? It is a very straightforward question.

610 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:11:20am

re: #598 Baier

Charles, I doubt that you can do anything about it but that 'Evony' banner ad rotating on your site looks like porn. Someone saw it as they were passing while I was reading LGF and asked if I was looking at porn, quite seriously...needless to say it was an embarrassing situation.

Tell them yeah, its porn, you want some?

611 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:11:26am

re: #444 gregb

"Death Panel" is the common name for the UK Clinical Advisory Board as related to NHS governance issues. I don't see any problems using the term as it's in wide common practice.


That would be the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. They determine whether treatments and new drugs are cost effective and set recommendations for treatment based on the patients age and assign a monetary value to individual lives and specific treatments given to certain age groups. If the "cost" to government is considered to outweigh to benefit to the society, treatments are not approved. Instead of treating patients as individuals, they treat everyone as a group and decide if authorizing treatment for patient X will benefit the society as a whole.

Not all countries with national healthcare operate under this system. Germany and France, for example, refuses to use QALYS.

612 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:11:32am

re: #601 Dianna

But those are good things.

To you. Progressives feel different.

613 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:11:33am

re: #593 WinterCat

yes!! He just asked the $64,000 question. Why doesn't Congress take this plan.

What was the answer? (In the Philippines...no CNN around me at the moment...)

614 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:11:35am

re: #592 Killgore Trout

...and the kid ended up asking a good tough question.

Yes. Why Congress has a different health care system than the rest of the country.

615 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:11:57am

re: #602 drcordell

Congress already has a Federally administered health care plan.

That wasn't the question. If the public health plan is so good, why wouldn't Congress take it?

616 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:05am

re: #594 Kenneth

last summer, when my 4 year old overheard the Obama campaign commercial, "Yes We Can!' he started singing "Bob the Builder, Can we fix it? Yes We can!"

I nearly collapse from laughter at the revelation: Obama lifted his campaign slogan from a children's show. How perfect!

That was my thought as well when I first saw a Bob the Builder episode a few weeks ago (never saw one before, but it was made well before the campaign).
Can they sue for copyright imfringment?
/

617 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:08am

re: #606 DistantThunder

Obama could sell this in Chicago, and other undereducated urban areas, but not anywhere else.

He's already sold it to cordell. What does that make him?

618 friarstale  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:14am
“I won’t sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit.”

has a bill ever been written that doesn't do either?

619 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:17am

re: #613 Oh no...Sand People!

What was the answer? (In the Philippines...no CNN around me at the moment...)

You're in the Phils? Living? visiting?

620 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:21am

For now I've decided to let the 912dc.org ad keep running, even though it links to some batshit crazy websites in the Paulian-NWO vein. If they want to spend their money to help me criticize them, why stop them?

621 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:22am

re: #571 Desert Dog

His diabetes have been cured...by death...it's the ultimate cure...all of his other problems are over too

At last, comrade, you begin to appreciate the brilliance of government-run healthcare!

622 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:26am

re: #598 Baier

Charles, I doubt that you can do anything about it but that 'Evony' banner ad rotating on your site looks like porn. Someone saw it as they were passing while I was reading LGF and asked if I was looking at porn, quite seriously...needless to say it was an embarrassing situation.

It's often up at our house to and I try to remember to close the page before the kids get on. Games are like this nowadays.

623 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:29am

re: #614 Silvergirl

Yes. Why Congress has a different health care system than the rest of the country.

Obama is giving a decent answer.

624 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:30am

re: #603 Desert Dog

and the ones that mother gives you, don't do anything at all

mother = gov't?

625 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:31am

re: #539 drcordell

Yeah, which is why the GOP is attempting to scare seniors into opposing healthcare reform by claiming it will cut their Medicare benefits. Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are around because they have by and large been extremely beneficial for America as a whole. The GOP knows that if the Dems can pass substantive healthcare reform they will lose an entire generation of voters, just as they did with the New Deal.

Nonsense. The "substantive" health care is going to be paid for how exactly?

And this is the crux. Who is paying for the health care reform, where is the money coming from, and how can anyone trust the government's spending projections on same, when they can't even manage relatively simple programs.

Which means that the end result is going to be higher taxes. The question is then where they draw the line. By raising the taxes on everyone else who already has existing health care coverage, and reducing coverage of same? By forcing people who choose not to carry insurance to take insurance or face penalties?

Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are around because of bureaucratic inertia as much as anything else - they are entrenched because no one wants to change benefits as they help them, ignoring that they are unsustainable and unaffordable. Watch how the AARP comes out swinging against anyone who questions the need to raise the retirement age for SSI or indexing age to life expectancy so as to take into account that millions of people are living longer and there are fewer people paying into the system.

Bush brought about Medicaid Part D and I dont see anyone cheering for that mess, because it's costing far more than they figure it would. And that's just a few years ago. Get existing costs under control before demanding everyone else change.

Get the Indian Health Service figured out.
Get the Veterans Administration figured out. When you get those systems figured, we might trust Obama, but his explicit calls to make this a rush job shows that this has little to do with health care and costs and everything to do with control and power.

626 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:34am

re: #598 Baier

But don't mess with the muslim matrimonial mart.
///

627 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:38am

re: #615 acwgusa

That wasn't the question. If the public health plan is so good, why wouldn't Congress take it?

Don't get him off his meme.

628 Buster  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:12:51am

re: #419 Charles

I can hardly believe this. After drumming up all this hysteria, promoting "joining the mob!" and another BS, Fox News has now stopped covering Obama's town hall.

Unreal.

Perhaps because it became a stage managed campaign event?

629 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:13:02am

re: #605 Charles

I'll check it out.

Thanks. Sorry for being off topic, and I wouldn't have even crossed my mind had it not created an embarrassing situation.

630 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:13:12am

Mr. President:

It appears as if there is quite a bit of confusion over the "end of life" clause in the bill. As far as I am able to discern, neither side of the table has a monopoly on the "disinformation" contained in this clause. Rather than allow continued wild speculation, wouldn't it be prudent to explain exactly what "end of life" counseling entails? Consider inviting a member of Hospice to explain it, as a suggestion. Stating "that is fear mongering from the right" does not answer the questions, and only fuels more speculation, or, as in my case, makes me realize how much the congress doesn't know.

Kind regards,

AW

ps - was this asked already? I'm late to the party.

631 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:13:18am

re: #546 WinterCat

Primary care physicians make a whole lot more than specialists?

Not so far as I'm aware.

632 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:13:25am

re: #627 Ward Cleaver

Don't get him off his meme.

Why? He's already off his rocker.

633 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:13:33am

re: #609 WinterCat

Oh, Obama is saying that Congress and other Govt folks can get a better deal because there are more of them to drive down the cost. Not a straight answer here. Blah, Blah, Blah. Where is your answer Obama? It is a very straightforward question.

Exactly, if the elitist chumps can't follow 'we the people' then screw their plan for us. That's pretty much all I need to know...

634 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:13:34am

re: #419 Charles

I can hardly believe this. After drumming up all this hysteria, promoting "joining the mob!" and another BS, Fox News has now stopped covering Obama's town hall.

Unreal.

They didn't get the bruhaha they hoped to stir up. It's all about ratings.

635 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:13:38am

re: #628 Buster

Perhaps because it became a stage managed campaign event?

Well, you can just dismiss it if you like, but I'm watching in order to learn something, and I think it's been pretty informative.

636 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:13:45am

re: #613 Oh no...Sand People!

What was the answer? (In the Philippines...no CNN around me at the moment...)

After about 3 minutes of general fill he said that you don't have to take the plan if you don't want to. (Paraphrasing.) He acknowledges that while he disagrees with the notion that the public option will drive out the private option, it is still debatable.

637 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:13:50am

Um--Mr. President the status quo works really great for me.

638 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:01am

re: #626 tradewind

But don't mess with the muslim matrimonial mart.
///

Muslim matrimony is not against company policy!

639 KingKenrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:01am

re: #607 Seattle Rep

I heard on talk radio KVI 570am Kirby Wilbur's show that there's audio out there of Obama on the campaign trail talking about how these meetings on healthcare would be broadcast on C-SPAN.
Did he forget?

It's more than that - video!

[Link: hotair.com...]

640 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:02am

Why is this being done in the middle of the day?

641 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:16am

re: #619 Desert Dog

You're in the Phils? Living? visiting?

Living / Working.

642 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:17am

re: #615 acwgusa

That wasn't the question. If the public health plan is so good, why wouldn't Congress take it?

I don't think anyone is going to make the argument that the public option is going to be the best damn healthcare plan in the country. The point is, getting people who don't have any insurance, are "uninsurable," or can't afford health insurance, to get some coverage. Obviously people who can afford private insurance are probably going to be better off sticking with what they have.

643 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:26am

re: #627 Ward Cleaver

You could even split that and it would still work.
/me me/.

644 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:30am

re: #584 Dianna

Um? You meant "peddle" which means "to sell".

"Pedal" means, well, to pedal a bike, tryke, or pedal boat.

Finally, there is "petal", describing a portion of a flower.

Then there's "pet Dell" for people who really, really love their pcs.

645 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:31am

re: #640 MandyManners

Why is this being done in the middle of the day?

All the Republicans are at work and cannot protest?

646 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:34am

re: #640 MandyManners

Why is this being done in the middle of the day?

Obama's opposition have real day jobs.

647 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:36am

re: #631 Dianna

Not so far as I'm aware.

Obama seems to think so.

648 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:50am

re: #640 MandyManners

Why is this being done in the middle of the day?

Because "death panel" candidates will be taking their naps?

649 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:52am

re: #638 Baier

That's why I don't want it messed with.

650 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:14:56am

re: #628 Buster

Perhaps because it became a stage managed campaign event?

Get some proof of that contention, and I'd share your outrage.

651 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:01am

Good work. Good questions, good answers, everybody behaved. That was encouraging to see.

652 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:02am

re: #565 HoosierHoops

What happens if you take both?

Chaos

653 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:07am

re: #596 drcordell

I think I saw this earlier, but his support on the left seems to be taking a beating. Progressives are upset that he is taking a more middle of the road stance and considering abandoning the public option.

Interesting. I thought some independent support was also faltering. That may be the downside to the whole tabla rosa thing which had been working remarkably well up until now.

People can apply the worst as well as the best possible interpretationd. Perhaps folks on both sides of the debate are doing the former instead of the latter for a change.

654 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:07am

re: #640 MandyManners

Why is this being done in the middle of the day?

Spread the pain. It's been prime time before, now the Soaps must suffer.

/insert maniacal laugh here.

655 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:07am

re: #646 acwgusa

Obama's opposition have real day jobs.

And they dress too well.

656 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:18am

re: #540 gregb

Makes me wonder... is Bob the Builder related to Phil Collins? The family resemblance is striking.

657 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:27am

re: #640 MandyManners

Rahm begged for primetime and the networks manned up and said NoMas.

658 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:28am

Ok, it is over.
Doesn't seem stacked. I give him credit for that. In the past they have been.

659 SteveC  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:31am

re: #570 DistantThunder

More and more doctors are not taking new medicare patients, because medicare is decreasing reimbursements.

That's also known as "Concierge Medicine" - cash only, fee for service. I plan to ask my Cardiologist what his plans are for the future, because the new spending plan cuts Cardiology payments 30%. I'm a little scared of what his answer will be.

We're playing the "we ain't go no money" game. To be able to increase payments to PCPs, we have to decrease it somewhere else. Cardiologist are the chosen offenders this time.

660 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:38am

re: #617 Ward Cleaver

He's already sold it to cordell. What does that make him?

A college educated white collar professional who isn't stupid enough to believe Obama is going to have my parents euthanized. And who is sick of watching his insurance premiums go up 15% a year, and watch his girlfriend's father who is ill with cancer be denied further treatment because his "policy has maxed out."

661 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:46am

Oh my god.

CNN just showed Arlen Specter getting told he's damned to burn in hell.

662 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:50am

re: #641 Oh no...Sand People!

Living / Working.

Cool, been there many times. My wife is from Angeles City, Pampanga...grew up around Clark Air Base before she moved here in the 1980's. What are of the Phils are you in? Are you a filipino?

663 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:52am

re: #651 Killgore Trout

Good work. Good questions, good answers, everybody behaved. That was encouraging to see.

And the valium in the free bottled water helped, too.

/

664 apachegunner  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:15:53am

re: #595 Silvergirl

One pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small.


ahre: #650 avanti

Get some proof of that contention, and I'd share your outrage.

aaa, thats it! thanks. do you really think that fool has ever had an unstaged event, ever?

665 KingKenrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:16:01am

re: #640 MandyManners

Why is this being done in the middle of the day?

Obama's used up his allotment of gratis prime time for the month.

666 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:16:06am

re: #640 MandyManners

To reach their target audience.

667 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:16:10am

re: #657 tradewind

Rahm begged for primetime and the networks manned up and said NoMas.

Link?

668 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:16:11am

re: #565 HoosierHoops

Ask Michael Jackson.
Oh wait...

669 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:16:20am

re: #651 Killgore Trout

Good work. Good questions, good answers, everybody behaved. That was encouraging to see.

Have they shown the KoolAid tanker trucks out front yet?

670 Gang of One  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:16:24am

re: #640 MandyManners

Why is this being done in the middle of the day?

Because it's a school night.

671 Baier  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:16:27am

re: #658 WinterCat

Ok, it is over.
Doesn't seem stacked. I give him credit for that. In the past they have been.

Agreed. The first question was fishy, but it didn't continue that way, and I believe it was genuine now.

672 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:16:35am

re: #608 midwestgak

When she's ten feet tall.

in bed

673 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:16:35am

re: #436 drcordell

Are you actually surprised? The President speaking directly to the electorate and informing them of actual facts is anathema to their entire organization. They can't make money fearmongering off an informed populace.

Of course the other networks never did that when Bush was speaking.

674 Seattle Rep  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:16:38am

re: #27 Kosh's Shadow

Tri-care as in Tri anything that will stick? Tri it see if you like it?

675 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:16:54am

re: #660 drcordell

A college educated white collar professional who isn't stupid enough to believe Obama is going to have my parents euthanized. And who is sick of watching his insurance premiums go up 15% a year, and watch his girlfriend's father who is ill with cancer be denied further treatment because his "policy has maxed out."

676 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:17:06am

re: #661 Charles

That smells awfully like a plant.
Maybe the Dems are wising up and have found their own Karl Rove.

677 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:17:15am

He claims he never supported a single-payer system and Rush queues up the tapes of him saying he's for single-payer. You can't make this up.

In other words, believe nothing Obama says.

Choreographed, stage-managed lies in front of a crowd of Obamatons.

678 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:17:17am

re: #675 acwgusa

That will teach me to hit post without saying anything.

679 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:17:18am

re: #640 MandyManners

Why is this being done in the middle of the day?

You know.

680 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:17:21am

re: #623 Killgore Trout

Obama is giving a decent answer.

He says that's exactly what we want to do with health care reform, which is shop for the best plans. Like federal health care employees do.

He may want that to be how it is. But I kind of think it's more hopey changey than reality.

681 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:17:22am

Wow. Arlen Specter really got swarmed by Birthers and religious kooks today.

682 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:17:29am

re: #671 Baier

Agreed. The first question was fishy, but it didn't continue that way, and I believe it was genuine now.

I did not catch the very first part. I plan to rerun it and comb through his answers carefully.

683 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:17:48am

re: #667 MandyManners

/sarc/

684 Gang of One  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:17:48am

re: #565 HoosierHoops

What happens if you take both?

Nothing. They cancel each other out.

685 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:17:48am

re: #661 Charles

Oh my god.

CNN just showed Arlen Specter getting told he's damned to burn in hell.


Yeah, the right wing blogs seem pretty proud of that clip too.

686 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:17:55am

re: #640 MandyManners

Why is this being done in the middle of the day?

Let me try a Rush spin. It is held during the day because all the conservatives are at work. :)

687 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:17:55am

re: #673 kansas

Of course the other networks never did that when Bush was speaking.

You're right... they never carried any of his press conferences. Like his Mission Accomplished speech from an aircraft carrier. You have no concept of what life is like outside your perceived reality. Up until popular opinion turned on Bush circa 2005-2006, he enjoyed GLOWING press coverage.

688 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:18:10am

re: #651 Killgore Trout

Good work. Good questions, good answers, everybody behaved. That was encouraging to see.

Except one problem. He's completely full of sh*t.

689 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:18:23am

re: #676 tradewind

That smells awfully like a plant.
Maybe the Dems are wising up and have found their own Karl Rove.

In a nation of 300 million it's easy to come across kooks. Even easier when you are deliberately seeking them.

690 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:18:31am

re: #623 Killgore Trout

Obama is giving a decent answer.

If it were true, it would help.

691 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:18:32am

re: #640 MandyManners

Why is this being done in the middle of the day?

Allow time to gauge public reaction, and release an official spin in time for the evening news cycle.

692 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:18:34am

re: #685 Killgore Trout

Not nearly as proud as the left wings.
I'm surprised it took them this long.

693 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:18:35am

I just sent my representative, who I did not vote for, a thank you for having the courage to still hold his scheduled town halls. Any representative who holds their town halls after this last week really should be commended just for being willing to do so.

694 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:18:50am

re: #660 drcordell

A college educated white collar professional who isn't stupid enough to believe Obama is going to have my parents euthanized. And who is sick of watching his insurance premiums go up 15% a year, and watch his girlfriend's father who is ill with cancer be denied further treatment because his "policy has maxed out."

So you don't think he'd max out under 0bamacare? Can you say "comparative effectiveness"?

And no, the government won't euthanize anybody. They'll just say "no", and let them die.

695 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:18:52am

I'm tempted to take another nap.

696 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:18:57am

re: #677 JammieWearingFool

He claims he never supported a single-payer system and Rush queues up the tapes of him saying he's for single-payer. You can't make this up.

In other words, believe nothing Obama says.

Choreographed, stage-managed lies in front of a crowd of Obamatons.

I don't think so, not entirely. It does seem that there were some genuine opposition questions asked.

697 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:18:58am

re: #681 Charles

Wow. Arlen Specter really got swarmed by Birthers and religious kooks today.

Are they trying to coax him back to the GOP?

/

698 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:18:59am

re: #677 JammieWearingFool

He claims he never supported a single-payer system and Rush queues up the tapes of him saying he's for single-payer. You can't make this up.

In other words, believe nothing Obama says.

Choreographed, stage-managed lies in front of a crowd of Obamatons.

Preaching to the choir...he just repeated what he has said in the past. He is still dodging the big questions. Who will pay for this? Will this government option destroy the private insurance industry? Will rationing care be harmful?

699 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:19:00am

re: #662 Desert Dog

Cool, been there many times. My wife is from Angeles City, Pampanga...grew up around Clark Air Base before she moved here in the 1980's. What are of the Phils are you in? Are you a filipino?

I am in Manila, work in Quezon City to be exact. Not a filipino, from...wait for it...wait for it...Idaho. Just passed my first year mark here. I actually dig this place for all of it's crappy traffic, and my Tagalog is picking up pretty alright also compared to many expats here anyway.

700 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:19:06am

re: #681 Charles

Poor Arlen. Hated by the right, hated by the left, hated by the kooks. His political mojo seems to have run out. I wish him the best.

701 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:19:07am

re: #660 drcordell

A college educated white collar professional who isn't stupid enough to believe Obama is going to have my parents euthanized. And who is sick of watching his insurance premiums go up 15% a year, and watch his girlfriend's father who is ill with cancer be denied further treatment because his "policy has maxed out."

So he can get denied by government panel board that his cancer would be a substantial cost to the taxpayer, so they won't treat him?

Think that doesn't happen here in government run health care? I see it all the time in medicaid.

702 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:19:10am
703 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:19:43am

re: #688 JammieWearingFool

Except one problem. He's completely full of sh*t.

If you're going to oppose everything the man says or does purely out of hatred, why even bother?

704 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:20:05am

re: #691 SixDegrees

Allow time to gauge public reaction, and release an official spin in time for the evening news cycle.

The vast mamority of those who will pay for this are not watching. They're at work. Paying for their neighbors' new cars and mortgages.

705 Cato  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:20:06am

re: #661 Charles

Pennsylvania is Philadelphia and Pittsburgh connected by Alabama. Are you surprised?

706 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:20:11am

I'm pretty sure there was nothing staged at this town hall.

707 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:20:17am

re: #681 Charles

Yeah, the Republicans.
Who elected him.
/JK/
He's toast, I bet. Shades of Jumpin' Jim.

708 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:20:27am

re: #651 Killgore Trout

Good work. Good questions, good answers, everybody behaved. That was encouraging to see.

Yeah. Who cares if it was a pack of lies? It was a polite pack of lies, that's what's important.

709 KingKenrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:20:29am

re: #687 drcordell

You're right... they never carried any of his press conferences. Like his Mission Accomplished speech from an aircraft carrier. You have no concept of what life is like outside your perceived reality. Up until popular opinion turned on Bush circa 2005-2006, he enjoyed GLOWING press coverage.

The press turned back on Bush about September of '03, after a summer of not finding WMD. And it became a true shitstorm April '04 when Fallujah happened.

710 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:20:34am

re: #661 Charles

Oh my god.

CNN just showed Arlen Specter getting told he's damned to burn in hell.

I watched it live, and predicted it would make the MSM. It was pretty ugly.

711 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:20:35am

re: #687 drcordell

You're right... they never carried any of his press conferences. Like his Mission Accomplished speech from an aircraft carrier. You have no concept of what life is like outside your perceived reality. Up until popular opinion turned on Bush circa 2005-2006, he enjoyed GLOWING press coverage.

The stupid "Mission Accomplished" banner wasn't his idea. And actually, one mission had been accomplished - toppling Saddam.

712 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:20:40am

re: #701 acwgusa

So he can get denied by government panel board that his cancer would be a substantial cost to the taxpayer, so they won't treat him?

Think that doesn't happen here in government run health care? I see it all the time in medicaid.

If I'm going to have a bureaucrat deciding my fate, I'd rather it be someone who doesn't get a bonus at the end of every quarter based on how many claims they have rejected.

713 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:20:41am

re: #661 Charles

Oh my god.

CNN just showed Arlen Specter getting told he's damned to burn in hell.

Yeah. There were a couple of Thumpers there this morning. They were quickly shut down, but - what a surprise! - they're what's getting all the news attention.

A real pity. Specter, overall, made a very poor showing. It would have been nice to see more of that broadcast over and over again. But...

714 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:20:51am

B re: #687 drcordell

You're right... they never carried any of his press conferences. Like his Mission Accomplished speech from an aircraft carrier. You have no concept of what life is like outside your perceived reality. Up until popular opinion turned on Bush circa 2005-2006, he enjoyed GLOWING press coverage.

What kind of a doctor are you anyway? DO, Doctor of Over Generalizations?

715 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:20:54am

re: #700 ArmyWife

Poor Arlen. Hated by the right, hated by the left, hated by the kooks. His political mojo seems to have run out. I wish him the best.

Yes, in retirement.

716 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:21:00am

re: #704 MandyManners

The vast mamority of those who will pay for this are not watching. They're at work. Paying for their neighbors' new cars and mortgages.

BOOB Thread!

717 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:21:26am

re: #703 drcordell

I've approved of many things Obama has said in the past.
Problem is, he goes and takes them back, or does just the opposite.

718 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:21:33am

re: #714 kansas

B

What kind of a doctor are you anyway? DO, Doctor of Over Generalizations?

That would be DOG.

719 freedomplow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:21:39am

re: #677 JammieWearingFool

He claims he never supported a single-payer system and Rush queues up the tapes of him saying he's for single-payer. You can't make this up.

In other words, believe nothing Obama says.

Choreographed, stage-managed lies in front of a crowd of Obamatons.

Yes he flat out lied. But that is not important.
/

720 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:21:40am

Right on cue, here's Pat Buchanan with a little very thinly veiled racism for the base:

MSNBC Video
721 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:21:44am

re: #712 drcordell

If I'm going to have a bureaucrat deciding my fate, I'd rather it be someone who doesn't get a bonus at the end of every quarter based on how many claims they have rejected.

Welcome to reality. Federal Funding gets allocated on how much money we save in costs. We get more if we keeps costs down. It doesn't dictate how.

722 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:21:57am

re: #661 Charles

Oh my god.

CNN just showed Arlen Specter getting told he's damned to burn in hell.

You should have seen the entire town hall. It was long and mostly polite.

723 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:21:57am

re: #677 JammieWearingFool

He claims he never supported a single-payer system and Rush queues up the tapes of him saying he's for single-payer. You can't make this up.

In other words, believe nothing Obama says.

Choreographed, stage-managed lies in front of a crowd of Obamatons.

"That's not the single payer system I knew."

724 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:21:58am

re: #711 Ward Cleaver

The stupid "Mission Accomplished" banner wasn't his idea. And actually, one mission had been accomplished - toppling Saddam.

It's not about the banner, it's about the fact that Bush was able to get press attention just as easily as Obama does. People here are acting like Bush never was able to hold a press conference to speak to the nation when he so desired. To them the past 8 years have already gone down the memory hole.

725 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:21:59am

re: #703 drcordell

If you're going to oppose everything the man says or does purely out of hatred, why even bother?

I won't necessarily ppose him if he ever actually tells the truth.

I'm free to voice my opinion.

726 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:00am

Sorry, I have no idea what life is like outside of my perceived reality. Does anyone really?

727 SteveC  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:02am

re: #661 Charles

Oh my god.

CNN just showed Arlen Specter getting told he's damned to burn in hell.

When I was knee high to a grasshopper, we had a pastor who would say "... went straight to hell at full speed! Knocked the fiery gates clean off the hinges!

/Preach it, Brotha!

728 Bob Dillon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:04am

re: #697 wrenchwench

Are they trying to coax him back to the GOP?

/

Something about wanting him to abide by, support and defend the Constitution - I think.

729 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:09am

re: #699 Oh no...Sand People!

I am in Manila, work in Quezon City to be exact. Not a filipino, from...wait for it...wait for it...Idaho. Just passed my first year mark here. I actually dig this place for all of it's crappy traffic, and my Tagalog is picking up pretty alright also compared to many expats here anyway.

We are seriously thinking about making a move for a few years. I could teach there with no problem and she has a job waiting for her back in Manila. It is tempting. She wants our youngest to get some filipino values and get to know her side of the family more. Right now, we go back 1-2 times a year. She stays longer. I love that place...love the people, the food...I am not so keen on typhoons and all that rain though!

730 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:12am

re: #478 drcordell

I hate to break it to you, but every U.S. dollar is technically owned by the Government. It's a fiat currency. Its value is derived solely from trust that the Government says it has worth. If they decide tomorrow to create the "New Dollar" and abolish the current dollar, your dollars become worthless. That's how it works.

Moving back to healthcare, healthcare and the Federal Government are inexorably linked, and will be forever. As long as we, as a nation, have decided that we will not let people die in the streets, the government will be involved in healthcare. So yes, it is in the governments best interest to try and make our healthcare system run as smoothly as possible.

In other words, you do believe the government is the creator of all wealth and they generously allow us to keep a portion of what we work for.

So that makes us all government employees without the benefits?

731 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:13am

re: #717 tradewind

I've approved of many things Obama has said in the past.
Problem is, he goes and takes them back, or does just the opposite.

Everything I seem to disapprove of, he goes and sticks to it and does his best to push it through...

732 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:21am

We had a town hall meeting here in Georgia hosted by Congressman Hank Johnson (D).

From the invitation:

Please do not allow news reports of “town halls gone wild” deter you from attending our meeting. I want to hear from my constituents who have real questions and concerns about health care insurance reform proposals being debated in Congress.

Our democracy doesn’t work unless we treat each other with respect and are willing to listen to diverse opinions. I’m here to listen to you, and I think we will all benefit from listening to our distinguished panel and to each other.

The event went peacefully and orderly.

What the heck is wrong with you Yankees?/

733 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:22am

re: #711 Ward Cleaver

That was actually the only mission the not-too-forward-thinking person who came up with that idea was talking about.

734 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:27am

Speaking of campaign promises and pledges: (and deception)
[Link: www.forbes.com...]

Obama took his Republican rival, Sen. John McCain, to the mat for suggesting that it might be better to remove the existing health care tax break that individuals get on their employer-sponsored coverage, but return the vast bulk--if not all--of the resulting revenues in the form of health care tax credits. This would theoretically have made coverage both more affordable and portable for everyone. Obama, however, would have none of it, portraying this idea simply as the removal of a tax break. "For the first time in history, he wants to tax your health benefits," he thundered. "Apparently, Sen. McCain doesn't think it's enough that your health premiums have doubled. He thinks you should have to pay taxes on them too."

Yet now Obama is signaling his willingness to go along with a far worse scheme to tax employer-sponsored benefits to fund the $1.6 trillion or so it will cost to provide universal coverage. Contrary to Obama's allegations, McCain's plan did not ultimately entail a net tax increase because he intended to return to individuals whatever money was raised by scrapping the tax deduction. Not so with Obama. He apparently told Sen. Baucus that he would consider the senator's plan for rolling back the tax exclusion that expensive, Cadillac-style employer-sponsored plans enjoy, in order to pay for universal coverage. But, unlike McCain, he has said nothing about putting offsetting deductions or credits in the hands of individuals.

In other words, Obama might well end up doing what McCain never set out to do: Impose a net tax increase on health benefits for the first time in history.

735 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:28am

My dad's taking The Kid and a bunch of his buddies to see a movie this afternoon. It's quiet. It's time for a nap. l8tr

736 MikeAlv77  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:32am

re: #705 Cato

Pennsylvania is Philadelphia and Pittsburgh connected by Alabama. Are you surprised?

Now that was out of line since I live between the two and it's not that. Some call it fly-over country. I have met lots of people from in-between and they are great people...

737 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:32am

re: #661 Charles

Oh my god.

CNN just showed Arlen Specter getting told he's damned to burn in hell.

I was listening to that townhall live about a couple of hours ago. Didn't hear the whole thing. But the questions I heard civil, though many expressed opposition as they offered the questions. Mosty started with "Welcome to Lebanon P.A. Senator".

Point is, as I was listening i was thinking "Well this won't townhall won't be making any headlines." It got boring so I went back to music.

Perhaps CNN cherry picked the whackos and are broadcasting it. i wonder if the entire townhall is available somewhere so that people can get the whole context of the meeting. Because what I heard may have been the exception and maybe CNN has the context right. But the opposite may be true to.

738 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:34am

Buchanan even cites VDARE.

739 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:41am

re: #676 tradewind

That smells awfully like a plant.
Maybe the Dems are wising up and have found their own Karl Rove.

No. There were way too many whackadoos to account for through planting.

Not surprisingly, either, it's what the MSM is running with. There were actually some very sharp questions asked that Spector fumbled badly, but we'll never see those now.

740 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:22:46am

re: #695 MandyManners

I'm tempted to take another nap.

Knock yourself out!

741 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:23:14am

re: #725 JammieWearingFool

I won't necessarily ppose him if he ever actually tells the truth.

I'm free to voice my opinion.

Not saying you aren't free, I'm just wondering what the point of screaming b*llshit is repeatedly. Doesn't seem very constructive, especially considering you haven't really addressed anything substantive. I guess it feels good?

742 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:23:18am

re: #720 Charles

I'm puzzled that he appears on MSNBC. What is he, their token?
Although his anti-semitism fits their agenda, so maybe not.

743 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:23:19am
744 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:23:39am

re: #741 drcordell

Not saying you aren't free, I'm just wondering what the point of screaming b*llshit is repeatedly. Doesn't seem very constructive, especially considering you haven't really addressed anything substantive. I guess it feels good?

Doctor Feels Good?

745 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:23:39am

re: #721 acwgusa

Welcome to reality. Federal Funding gets allocated on how much money we save in costs. We get more if we keeps costs down. It doesn't dictate how.

First thing that went in California? Benefit cuts for the children and elderly.

746 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:23:41am

re: #664 apachegunner

aaa, thats it! thanks. do you really think that fool has ever had an unstaged event, ever?

I don't think the POTUS is a fool, nor unfounded comments like that are helpful. Yes, some events were in facts staged to some degree, but this crowd was picked by lottery.

747 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:24:05am

re: #695 MandyManners

I'm tempted to take another nap.

I'm tempted to take another crap.

748 KingKenrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:24:07am

re: #720 Charles

Right on cue, here's Pat Buchanan with a little very thinly veiled racism for the base:

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

MSNBC keeps him around to make conservatives look bad. If Pat had a clue, he'd notice the kick-me sign on his back.

749 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:24:09am

re: #687 drcordell

You're right... they never carried any of his press conferences. Like his Mission Accomplished speech from an aircraft carrier. You have no concept of what life is like outside your perceived reality. Up until popular opinion turned on Bush circa 2005-2006, he enjoyed GLOWING press coverage.

Umm... glowing press coverage? The media assailed Bush at every turn from the moment he took office until 9/11. Popular opinion rallied to Bush after 9/11, but turned on Bush as soon as the smoldering remains of Ground Zero were cleared. The Iraq invasion runup saw the end of any "glowing" press coverage from 9/11. And even as the popular opinion of Bush jumped again when the US invaded Iraq, it steadily dropped off, and continued dropping until the end of his administration.

750 BlueCanuck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:24:21am

re: #712 drcordell

If I'm going to have a bureaucrat deciding my fate, I'd rather it be someone who doesn't get a bonus at the end of every quarter based on how many claims they have rejected.

Okay, now that's just pure garbage. Proof? Linky? And what makes you think that a government bureaucrat will care about your fate more than an insurance company bureaucrat? I would prefer the latter.

751 JustABill  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:24:33am

re: #717 tradewind

I've approved of many things Obama has said in the past.
Problem is, he goes and takes them back, or does just the opposite.

Just words, just speaches...

752 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:24:40am

re: #713 SixDegrees

Yeah. There were a couple of Thumpers there this morning. They were quickly shut down, but - what a surprise! - they're what's getting all the news attention.

A real pity. Specter, overall, made a very poor showing. It would have been nice to see more of that broadcast over and over again. But...

Spector was awful, I could have provided better answers.

753 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:24:58am

By the way, if anyone thinks Buchanan has been marginalized, or that he doesn't have a large following, I urge you to go to a site like Human Events or Town Hall and check out the comments when they post one of his hateful screeds.

754 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:25:03am

re: #729 Desert Dog

We are seriously thinking about making a move for a few years. I could teach there with no problem and she has a job waiting for her back in Manila. It is tempting. She wants our youngest to get some filipino values and get to know her side of the family more. Right now, we go back 1-2 times a year. She stays longer. I love that place...love the people, the food...I am not so keen on typhoons and all that rain though!

The rain is kind of bugging, but the last few days have been nice. Now the food was wicked horrible for the first 6 months, then I finally started getting a knack for it and now I am noticing some random cravings setting in on some of the stuff. But yeah, a group of nicer people I have yet to meet in general. Super humble and super nice...to your face anyway.

755 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:25:04am

re: #747 SixDegrees

I'm tempted to take another crap.

Just don't do them at the same time...

756 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:25:10am

re: #549 gregb

Complete series downloadable on p2p nets...just now rediscovering them. I never heard of it until I saw and like "Serenity".

Serenity makes a whole lot more sense after watching the series...
Firefly is on hulu.com

757 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:25:25am

re: #730 Wendya

In other words, you do believe the government is the creator of all wealth and they generously allow us to keep a portion of what we work for.

So that makes us all government employees without the benefits?

I don't "believe" anything regarding the dollar being a fiat currency. I know it to be fact. You clearly don't have the slightest idea about how our currency works. Go read a book on the treasury and come back when you can hold your end in a discussion.

758 tackle  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:25:28am

re: #270 DistantThunder

You know in England where they have ambulances stacked up around the block waiting to unload their patients - people in the US are NOT going to put up with that.


My British father-in-law has been waiting months for his bypass surgery. He just got a call that will put it back another few weeks. Hope he makes it.

Another Canadian family member suffered a miscarriage and was waiting for a D&C. Her two choices were to go to the women's health clinic and have the D&C done by a family practice doctor (not a surgeon) or get on the hospital waiting list. She had her name put on the waiting list for a certain day, was told to fast and wait for the call for her to come in. Well, she never got in that day. It finally took her "pulling a few strings" (she knew some people at the hospital) to get it done in a timely manner.

My question:
Given that personal choice is an essential tenet of the Democrat Party, how can I have a reasonable assurance that my personal health choices will remain my own?
To me, a private insurance option (and not one that has a timeline) is imperative. Our employer is expanding their offering of health savings accounts, something that has been very successful thus far.

759 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:25:33am

I heard a few clips of Specter from earlier. A woman noted a specific passage from the bill and he called it a malicious lie.

So the legislation, according to Specter, is a malicious lie.

No wonder people jump ugly on him. He hasn't read the bill!

A clip from a couple weeks back he was whining he didn't have the time.

And he still hasn't read it.

But I guess criticizing him for that is forbidden.

760 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:25:36am

re: #739 SixDegrees

No. There were way too many whackadoos to account for through planting.

Not surprisingly, either, it's what the MSM is running with. There were actually some very sharp questions asked that Spector fumbled badly, but we'll never see those now.

This is the problem. The people making spectacles of themselves means that we will never get to the reality of what actually occurred.

761 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:25:42am

re: #737 karmic_inquisitor

I should have pimfed that .

762 Last Mohican  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:25:50am

re: #726 kansas

Sorry, I have no idea what life is like outside of my perceived reality. Does anyone really?

Yeah, it's pretty nice here, outside of your perceived reality. We do have to deal with drcordell's posts, but other than that, pretty much enjoyable.

763 JamesTKirk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:25:52am

re: #756 jcm

Serenity makes a whole lot more sense after watching the series...
Firefly is on hulu.com

I just rewatched them all last month.

764 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:25:58am
“I won’t sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit.”

Well, the bill he signs won't explicitly say that it will add to the national debt or the deficit. But that doesn't mean that it won't. Once we have a public health care "option", it will be forever. There is no way that he could ever know what the future will bring.

765 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:26:09am

re: #681 Charles

Wow. Arlen Specter really got swarmed by Birthers and religious kooks today.

I think that insane people swarm.

766 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:26:21am

re: #742 tradewind

I'm puzzled that he appears on MSNBC. What is he, their token?
Although his anti-semitism fits their agenda, so maybe not.

Liberal news channels like to have Buchanan on as their token conservative so they can paint all conservatives as racist reactionary bigots.

767 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:26:24am

re: #750 BlueCanuck

Okay, now that's just pure garbage. Proof? Linky? And what makes you think that a government bureaucrat will care about your fate more than an insurance company bureaucrat? I would prefer the latter.

You're telling me that insurance companies are not seeking to make a profit? I have to actively prove the contention that private insurers seek to deny as many claims as possible to make as much money as possible? It's their entire business model.

768 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:26:27am

re: #750 BlueCanuck

Okay, now that's just pure garbage. Proof? Linky? And what makes you think that a government bureaucrat will care about your fate more than an insurance company bureaucrat? I would prefer the latter.

I am always free to change insurance companies. Not so easy with the government.

769 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:26:30am

re: #720 Charles

Right on cue, here's Pat Buchanan with a little very thinly veiled racism for the base:

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

Whoa, is "Angry white men" the title of his column now, or just this one?

770 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:26:37am

re: #749 lawhawk

re: #749 lawhawk

Umm... glowing press coverage? The media assailed Bush at every turn from the moment he took office until 9/11. Popular opinion rallied to Bush after 9/11, but turned on Bush as soon as the smoldering remains of Ground Zero were cleared. The Iraq invasion runup saw the end of any "glowing" press coverage from 9/11. And even as the popular opinion of Bush jumped again when the US invaded Iraq, it steadily dropped off, and continued dropping until the end of his administration.

Cordell "agrees" with me by stating something I didn't even come close to saying?

771 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:26:41am

re: #741 drcordell

Not saying you aren't free, I'm just wondering what the point of screaming b*llshit is repeatedly. Doesn't seem very constructive, especially considering you haven't really addressed anything substantive. I guess it feels good?

Bite me, chump.

772 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:27:16am

re: #763 JamesTKirk

I just rewatched them all last month.

We just rewatched Serenity. Now we are starting to go through the series again. Too bad it was canceled.

773 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:27:29am

re: #767 drcordell

You're telling me that insurance companies are not seeking to make a profit? I have to actively prove the contention that private insurers seek to deny as many claims as possible to make as much money as possible? It's their entire business model.

And you think the same wouldn't happen under the government to hold down costs to the taxpayer?

774 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:27:33am

re: #771 JammieWearingFool

Bite me, chump.

I would, but there's nothing there besides a bunch of hot air.

775 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:27:36am

re: #762 Last Mohican

Yeah, it's pretty nice here, outside of your perceived reality. We do have to deal with drcordell's posts, but other than that, pretty much enjoyable.

I was thinking Keanu Reeves in Matrix. I am probably actually in a pod with wires sticking out of my spine.

776 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:27:38am

re: #757 drcordell

I don't "believe" anything regarding the dollar being a fiat currency. I know it to be fact. You clearly don't have the slightest idea about how our currency works. Go read a book on the treasury and come back when you can hold your end in a discussion.

So when I invoice a customer for services I performed and that customer sends me a check, the money belongs to the government.

I'm pretty sure there's a word for that...

777 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:27:46am

re: #766 Kenneth

Liberal news channels like to have Buchanan on as their token conservative so they can paint all conservatives as racist reactionary bigots.

That is exactly why they have him on. They roll him out as if he is a regular conservative with the same values as the "average" Republican. I wonder if Pat even knows (or cares) he is a poster boy for them?

778 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:27:51am

re: #765 Dianna

I think that insane people swarm.

The madness of crowds.

779 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:28:08am

re: #602 drcordell

Congress already has a Federally administered health care plan.

They get to choose between 17 private plans, taxpayer funded.

780 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:28:24am

re: #774 drcordell

I would, but there's nothing there besides a bunch of hot air.

Where are you biting? I think you missed

781 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:28:29am

re: #756 jcm

Serenity makes a whole lot more sense after watching the series...
Firefly is on hulu.com

Great series. A real pity it was axed. Sharp writing and characters a viewer could actually care about.

782 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:28:33am

re: #753 Charles

If anyone doesn't realize he has a following, they are naive or stupid. Key is getting the message out as to WHY its so outrageous that he has said following.

783 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:28:56am

re: #772 WinterCat

We just rewatched Serenity. Now we are starting to go through the series again. Too bad it was canceled.

I haven't seen either, but after watching the Terminator series, I want to see more of Summer Glau. And I would like to see some more shows/movies she's acted in.

784 MarineVet  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:28:56am

re: #9 apachegunner


Yes for us poor military absentee ballot folks...can't wait to have my vote counted by actually going to a ballot box!! (can you feel my sarcasm?)

785 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:28:59am

re: #753 Charles

By the way, if anyone thinks Buchanan has been marginalized, or that he doesn't have a large following, I urge you to go to a site like Human Events or Town Hall and check out the comments when they post one of his hateful screeds.

I'm not up for that kind of punishment.

786 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:29:15am

re: #774 drcordell

I would, but there's nothing there besides a bunch of hot air.

Downding to both of you for going to personal attacks.

787 eschew_obfuscation  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:29:26am

re: #712 drcordell

If I'm going to have a bureaucrat deciding my fate, I'd rather it be someone who doesn't get a bonus at the end of every quarter based on how many claims they have rejected.

Perhaps you don't understand insurance.

The policy (contract) you pay for states what is and is not covered. What you pay is determined by those coverages. More coverage (more potential expense), more premium.

The same rather crassly worded incentive to contain claims costs that you mention, also incents the same people to contain premiums in order to sell more insurance.

788 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:29:29am

re: #774 drcordell

I would, but there's nothing there besides a bunch of hot air.

I see you're popular around here. Guess it sucks to be thought of as a humongous asshole, but I'm sure you're used to that.

789 Bob Dillon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:29:30am

re: #758 tackle

My question:
Given that personal choice is an essential tenet of the Democrat Party, how can I have a reasonable assurance that my personal health choices will remain my own?

You can't - congress can change anything at anytime.

790 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:29:31am

re: #776 Wendya

So when I invoice a customer for services I performed and that customer sends me a check, the money belongs to the government.

I'm pretty sure there's a word for that...

The money belongs to the government because they printed it and gave it value. If the government says your dollar is worthless, it IS worthless. This is not rocket science. Are you truly this stupid that you cannot understand that?

791 Cato  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:29:33am

re: #736 MikeAlv77


You just called me outta line for saying your geographical location is like Alabama. I dont think there is anything wrong with Alabama. I just thought it was funny. Sorry if it irks you.

BTW, Falling Water is in between and it is a Mecca for me.

792 MarineVet  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:30:00am

re: #11 Karagush


Of course they have a couple deaf dumb and blind folks that weren't vetted!!

793 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:30:02am

re: #767 drcordell

You're telling me that insurance companies are not seeking to make a profit? I have to actively prove the contention that private insurers seek to deny as many claims as possible to make as much money as possible? It's their entire business model.

Except that there are nonprofit insurance companies, and many hospitals are run as nonprofits.

794 BlueCanuck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:30:04am

re: #767 drcordell

Of course they are out for a profit. They are a private company. I was calling BS on the claim that people get bonuses for denying a client coverage.

795 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:30:08am

re: #790 drcordell

The money belongs to the government because they printed it and gave it value. If the government says your dollar is worthless, it IS worthless. This is not rocket science. Are you truly this stupid that you cannot understand that?

I don't get how you keep calling people stupid and not getting whacked.

796 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:30:14am

In fact, the "Angry White Men" article is at Human Events right now, and the comments are a flat-out sewer.

The very first one:

Angry White Men" - lol!! In 1932 Hitler was in Berlin... a SA man ran into the room and said - "The commies are coming and they all have guns!!" Hitler said back to the man - " I care not if they have guns... what I want to know is do they have the will they use them!"
So is the white man in the ussa... loaded down with guns, 500 million rounds, 10 million + vets and no shooting, no riots, no street actions, no one doing a thing. Pat being "anrgy" means nothing without action and whitey is happy with his minority run sports, zionist media, mason/ocultic politics and a church whos job it is to make him "feel" that its all ok... zzz zzz zzz good night my little sheep. :O)

STEPP, glen rose texas republic - Aug 11, 2009 @ 02:59 AM

797 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:30:38am

re: #777 Desert Dog

I don't imagine his ego will allow him a moment of honest self-reflection.

798 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:31:06am

re: #705 Cato

Pennsylvania is Philadelphia and Pittsburgh connected by Alabama. Are you surprised?

Initiate sexual congress with thyself.

799 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:31:24am

FOX news pulled the plug on Obama's town hall because he was allowed to speak.. They're now giving live coverage to a town hall in Missouri because it's a clusterfuck of people shouting and disrupting.

800 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:31:44am

re: #795 kansas

I don't get how you keep calling people stupid and not getting whacked.

Follow the thread... I've tried to explain the concept of fiat currency to Wendya three straight posts, and she can't wrap her head around it. She keeps acting like I'm some nutjob because I understand that the dollar is worth what the government decides it is worth.

801 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:31:49am

re: #528 Silvergirl

Did anyone pick up on the UPS and FedEx vs the Post Office comment? He said the Post Office is always having problems. Doesn't that comparison undermine the whole idea of government run health care? I'm sure I missed part of it.

The post office has problems because it operates under certain mandates set by congress and their entire business model was designed by congress. But hey, that's worked out so well we should hand over health care to them as well.

802 SteveC  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:32:12am

re: #792 MarineVet

Of course they have a couple deaf dumb and blind folks that weren't vetted!!

but they sure played a mean pinball!

803 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:32:14am

re: #799 Killgore Trout

FOX news pulled the plug on Obama's town hall because he was allowed to speak.. They're now giving live coverage to a town hall in Missouri because it's a clusterfuck of people shouting and disrupting.

Hopefully some white blond chick won't go missing. Greta will be all over that./

804 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:32:38am

re: #800 drcordell

Follow the thread... I've tried to explain the concept of fiat currency to Wendya three straight posts, and she can't wrap her head around it. She keeps acting like I'm some nutjob because I understand that the dollar is worth what the government decides it is worth.

Like I said...

805 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:32:51am

re: #729 Desert Dog

We are seriously thinking about making a move for a few years. I could teach there with no problem and she has a job waiting for her back in Manila. It is tempting. She wants our youngest to get some filipino values and get to know her side of the family more. Right now, we go back 1-2 times a year. She stays longer. I love that place...love the people, the food...I am not so keen on typhoons and all that rain though!

#1 son who is on his mission (LDS) just wrote me about making a door for a widow's shack with bamboo, a machete, a hammer and nails. I knew the Eagle Scout projects would pay off some day! (He is in a rural area now. He says the locals love to stare at him (a "Joe") when he climbs the tree out back for fruit. They don't seem to be used to seeing a skinny white guy do that!

806 MarineVet  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:33:01am

re: #17 Jetpilot1101


Tricare none the less...and being a pache driver you will need it lol...in my experience helo pilots were always a bit touched ha ha...stay low and shoot straight Sir!! Hooah

807 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:33:01am

Who was that poster we had a long time ago that claimed he was independently wealthy? David something? I think his sock puppet is here.

808 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:33:02am

re: #801 Wendya

The post office has problems because it operates under certain mandates set by congress and their entire business model was designed by congress. But hey, that's worked out so well we should hand over health care to them as well.

Yeah. That's why I asked. I don't get why he would make that comparison. I wasn't tuned in with both ears and I really think I missed something.

809 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:33:21am

re: #800 drcordell

Follow the thread... I've tried to explain the concept of fiat currency to Wendya three straight posts, and she can't wrap her head around it. She keeps acting like I'm some nutjob because I understand that the dollar is worth what the government decides it is worth.

I agree the currency is fiat, but Robert Mugabeland will be a few (ok..more than a few...but it could happen) 'consumer confidence' dollar prints away...

810 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:33:27am

re: #740 Kenneth

Knock yourself out!

I couldn't keep my eyes shut. I'm doing laundry now.

811 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:33:28am

re: #807 Ward Cleaver

Who was that poster we had a long time ago that claimed he was independently wealthy? David something? I think his sock puppet is here.

Is he a doctor now?

812 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:33:38am

re: #799 Killgore Trout

FOX news pulled the plug on Obama's town hall because he was allowed to speak.. They're now giving live coverage to a town hall in Missouri because it's a clusterfuck of people shouting and disrupting.

They know what side of the bread their ratings are buttered on.

813 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:33:39am

re: #741 drcordell

Not saying you aren't free, I'm just wondering what the point of screaming b*llshit is repeatedly.

You're one to talk

When you eliminate the people who are opposed to anything Obama says or does because they believe he is a Kenyan Nazi Socialist who will euthanize their babies and kill their parents, a real discussion can happen.

814 MikeAlv77  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:33:43am

re: #791 Cato

You just called me outta line for saying your geographical location is like Alabama. I dont think there is anything wrong with Alabama. I just thought it was funny. Sorry if it irks you.

BTW, Falling Water is in between and it is a Mecca for me.

Then I guess I took that as meaning that the people between those two cities are hicks. Others have commented that they took it the same way. Living out here, this is a bone of contention from the "elites" who live in the two cities.

815 Cato  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:33:47am

re: #798 NukeAtomrod

Why thank you. Are you from PA or Alabama?

816 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:34:15am

re: #472 Charles

Remember this quote:

"I won't sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit."

He won't raise taxes either?

817 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:34:30am

re: #767 drcordell

You're telling me that insurance companies are not seeking to make a profit? I have to actively prove the contention that private insurers seek to deny as many claims as possible to make as much money as possible? It's their entire business model.

Of course they seek a profit , but there is no evidence that any insurance bureaucrat gets a bonus for denial of claims. Most everything is certified & therefore preapproved.
Larger employers, 200 employees & up are self insured & the claim payer has no stake in denial of a claim. They get payed on capitation or per transaction.

818 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:34:36am
819 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:34:45am

re: #807 Ward Cleaver

Who was that poster we had a long time ago that claimed he was independently wealthy? David something? I think his sock puppet is here.

Schwartz?

Yes, I do detect the smug air of superiority emanating from someone.

820 SteveC  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:34:52am

re: #815 Cato

Why thank you. Are you from PA or Alabama?

Alabama, Pennsylvania!

821 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:34:54am

re: #811 kansas

Is he a doctor now?

Either that or he plays one on TV.

822 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:34:58am

re: #781 SixDegrees

Great series. A real pity it was axed. Sharp writing and characters a viewer could actually care about.

The episode where Jane's a hero had me falling off the couch, laughing.

823 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:35:05am

re: #799 Killgore Trout

FOX news pulled the plug on Obama's town hall because he was allowed to speak.. They're now giving live coverage to a town hall in Missouri because it's a clusterfuck of people shouting and disrupting.

FOX has a long history of that and it annoys me. They go to a Gibbs presser and then cut away. During the presidential campaign, they'd show 10 minutes of an Obama or McCain townhall/speech and then cut away. Show it all or don't bother showing any of it.

824 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:35:11am

re: #819 JammieWearingFool

Schwartz?

Yes, I do detect the smug air of superiority emanating from someone.

That's it!

825 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:35:24am

re: #800 drcordell

Follow the thread... I've tried to explain the concept of fiat currency to Wendya three straight posts, and she can't wrap her head around it. She keeps acting like I'm some nutjob because I understand that the dollar is worth what the government decides it is worth.

You are a nutjob. I asked you a specific question and you meandered around yapping about fiat currency. your "dollar is worth what the government decides it is worth" is an asinine answer to my original question.

826 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:35:26am

re: #759 JammieWearingFool

I heard a few clips of Specter from earlier. A woman noted a specific passage from the bill and he called it a malicious lie.
So the legislation, according to Specter, is a malicious lie.

No wonder people jump ugly on him. He hasn't read the bill!

A clip from a couple weeks back he was whining he didn't have the time.

And he still hasn't read it.

But I guess criticizing him for that is forbidden.

Do you have a link?

827 MarineVet  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:35:38am

Mr. President as my Commander and Chief and the leader of the free world..if you are wrong in how this medical giant mess turns out is there an eject code in place to stop the on slaught??? Seems to me that there are millions on Medicare that were not the target group when it was initiated and now its millions strong and going down the tubes!!!

828 cybermonk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:35:44am

re: #363 Charles

Yes, I'm sure you don't want miss all the tough questions this non biased audience has asked Obama. Did you honestly believe you were going to get honest answers to your qestions. Keep holding your breath.

829 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:35:56am

re: #810 MandyManners

I'll be right over.

830 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:36:00am

re: #823 pianobuff

FOX has a long history of that and it annoys me. They go to a Gibbs presser and then cut away. During the presidential campaign, they'd show 10 minutes of an Obama or McCain townhall/speech and then cut away. Show it all or don't bother showing any of it.

If it bleeds, it leads.

831 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:36:00am

re: #805 DaddyG

#1 son who is on his mission (LDS) just wrote me about making a door for a widow's shack with bamboo, a machete, a hammer and nails. I knew the Eagle Scout projects would pay off some day! (He is in a rural area now. He says the locals love to stare at him (a "Joe") when he climbs the tree out back for fruit. They don't seem to be used to seeing a skinny white guy do that!

I got dengue last year... (my only claim to fame here...). We are having the Elders over for dinner on Friday; pancakes, french toast, sausage and eggs... (one is from Utah...hehehe.)

832 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:36:15am

re: #730 Wendya

In other words, you do believe the government is the creator of all wealth and they generously allow us to keep a portion of what we work for.

So that makes us all government employees without the benefits?

I'm not getting drcordell either.
The government prints the money and so it owns the currency.

but if I've performed work and I have earned the value of that currency, it just seems to me that value is mine to spend, not the government's. Except drcordell doesn't think so.

833 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:36:51am

re: #771 JammieWearingFool

Bite me, chump.

Be careful--he might not have had his shots.

834 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:36:58am

re: #750 BlueCanuck

...what makes you think that a government bureaucrat will care about your fate more than an insurance company bureaucrat? I would prefer the latter.


With an insurance bureaucrat you can pressure your company to buy another service. With the government bureaucrat you have to get an act of Congress to change. That is the defining difference for me.

835 Cato  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:37:52am

re: #814 MikeAlv77

I just thought it was funny. I live in a very elite community, but I often tell everyone that my values are those of any NASCAR dad. I'm a brie eating redneck (without the bigotry), so I think those kind of things are funny.

836 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:38:01am

re: #799 Killgore Trout

FOX news pulled the plug on Obama's town hall because he was allowed to speak.. They're now giving live coverage to a town hall in Missouri because it's a clusterfuck of people shouting and disrupting.

I doubt that. They covered his entire opening remarks. They switched away after it became obvious the the Q&A was stacked in Obama's favor. In short, there was no new news there.

The Missouri town hall, on the other hand, is exciting. Because something is occurring. That's news!

837 keithgabryelski  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:38:06am

Senator Clair McCaskill is on MSNBC at her town hall. Good questions.

838 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:38:10am

re: #799 Killgore Trout

FOX news pulled the plug on Obama's town hall because he was allowed to speak.. They're now giving live coverage to a town hall in Missouri because it's a clusterfuck of people shouting and disrupting.

Here's a solution to your problem with Fox News, Killgore...don't watch it. Stick with MSNBC for a outlook more suitable to your tastes.

839 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:38:21am

re: #421 Wendya

Are you one of those people who believe all money created in this country is owned by the government and then parceled out to the citizens? I can't see how you could possibly come up with that answer unless you really believed that to be true. You see, if I receive a 2% discount on the cost of my insurance or if my insurance costs rise at 4%, that does not add or subtract from the federal deficit.

Here is your original question. Which I answered in full. I don't "believe" our money is owned by the government, I know this to be a fact. Then you rephrased your same question over and over again. What do you want to know?

840 G.W.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:38:21am
“I won’t sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit.”

Too late for that, isn't it?

841 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:38:48am

re: #807 Ward Cleaver

Who was that poster we had a long time ago that claimed he was independently wealthy? David something? I think his sock puppet is here.

That was his first name. He also claimed to have a high IQ.

842 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:38:50am

re: #825 Wendya

What did the government decide the dollar was worth today?/

843 JustABill  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:39:10am

re: #800 drcordell

Follow the thread... I've tried to explain the concept of fiat currency to Wendya three straight posts, and she can't wrap her head around it. She keeps acting like I'm some nutjob because I understand that the dollar is worth what the government decides it is worth.

Since the govt doesn't generally set prices, the dollar is worth what the people believe it is worth. The govt can influence what a dollar is worth by how many it prints or otherwise creates, and it has set prices in the past, but in general producers set prices, subject to the acceptance/rejection of consumers. In so doing they set the value of the dollar (relative to their products)

844 Desert Dog  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:39:13am

re: #840 G.W.

Too late for that, isn't it?

He means, starting today...forget all that stuff before...quit living in the past, man...

845 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:39:13am

re: #822 Dianna

The episode where Jane's a hero had me falling off the couch, laughing.

Heh. I enjoyed the one where Mal kicks the bounty hunter into the ship's engine in the middle of his threats.

846 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:39:14am

re: #825 Wendya

You are a nutjob. I asked you a specific question and you meandered around yapping about fiat currency. your "dollar is worth what the government decides it is worth" is an asinine answer to my original question.

Further, that's not true. Or the dollar would not fluctuate in value.

To some degree, the dollar is a fiat currency; but since all money is, to some degree, a shared hallucination, this is less of an issue than the scorn poured on the term indicates.

847 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:39:17am

re: #793 lawhawk

Stop with the facts, will ya?? It's ruining the thought flow. ;)

848 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:39:19am

re: #840 G.W.

Too late for that, isn't it?

Waaay too late.

849 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:39:21am

I am now introducing our own fiat currency. It will be pegged to whatever currency is at the highest money market trading price. It will be the LZP: "Lizard Zionist Paycheck". All we gotta do is agree to it's value...and we are good to go. I can get them printed for real cheap here.

850 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:39:22am

re: #836 NukeAtomrod

I doubt that. They covered his entire opening remarks. They switched away after it became obvious the the Q&A was stacked in Obama's favor. In short, there was no new news there.

The Missouri town hall, on the other hand, is exciting. Because something is occurring. That's news!

Did you even watch the Obama town hall. It's pretty obvious that he got some tough questions from people who were not plants or pre-screened.

851 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:39:29am

re: #839 drcordell

I don't "believe" our money is owned by the government, I know this to be a fact.

More Tuesday Stupid

852 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:39:36am

re: #838 Desert Dog

I haven't watched FOX in years. I just turned it on when Charles mentioned they pulled the plug on Obama.

853 Silvergirl  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:39:39am

Answering my own question, sort of. I still don't fully understand why he would use that comparison. To me, it's shooting his own foot.

From Google News

He also disputed the notion that adding a government-run insurance plan into a menu of options from which people could pick would drive private insurers out of business, in effect making the system single-payer by default.

As long as they have a good product and the government plan has to sustain itself through premiums and other non-tax revenue, private insurers should be able to compete with the government plan, Obama said.

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

I see that he used it to calm the waters about putting insurance companies out of business, but at the same time he's pointing out that private business is more efficient than the federal government.

854 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:39:47am

re: #826 MandyManners

Do you have a link?

No link. It was on the radio. Although someone up thread said some blogs were on it.

Here's a clip from Hot Air though I don't believe that portion is on there.

855 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:40:12am

re: #783 Mad Al-Jaffee

I haven't seen either, but after watching the Terminator series, I want to see more of Summer Glau. And I would like to see some more shows/movies she's acted in.

You have to treat yourself to watching the series Firefly then. She is great as is the entire cast. Watch the series before the movie. That 's my recommendation.

856 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:40:24am

re: #826 MandyManners

Do you have a link?

She asked a death panel sort of a question, suggesting that a 74 year old would be denied treatment and he said that was a "malicious lie".

857 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:40:24am

re: #829 ArmyWife

I'll be right over.

It never ends. I think socks resproduce themselves.

858 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:40:34am

re: #834 DaddyG

With an insurance bureaucrat you can pressure your company to buy another service. With the government bureaucrat you have to get an act of Congress to change. That is the defining difference for me.

Government mandates on what insurance companies must cover and the deductibles they must charge hurt people as well. If I want a policy with a $10,000 deductible, what business does my state have saying I must go with a lower deductible?

859 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:40:42am

re: #846 Dianna

Further, that's not true. Or the dollar would not fluctuate in value.

To some degree, the dollar is a fiat currency; but since all money is, to some degree, a shared hallucination, this is less of an issue than the scorn poured on the term indicates.

The dollar fluctuates in value because the government made the decision to float it on the currency markets. Should the Government so desire, they could peg the dollar to any currency they choose.

860 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:40:47am

re: #837 keithgabryelski

Senator Clair McCaskill is on MSNBC at her town hall. Good questions.

I believe I heard McCaskill say that she would take the government plan.

861 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:41:02am

Remember this quote, repeated several times by Obama:
“I won’t sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit.”

You can tell that one to the grandkids right after the "read my lips - no new taxes" quote.
In neither case will they be likely to know what the heck you are talking about.

863 Last Mohican  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:41:29am

re: #856 avanti

She asked a death panel sort of a question, suggesting that a 74 year old would be denied treatment and he said that was a "malicious lie".

Well that sounds about right. I'd like to see the actual clip if someone can find it.

864 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:41:42am

re: #839 drcordell

Here is your original question. Which I answered in full. I don't "believe" our money is owned by the government, I know this to be a fact. Then you rephrased your same question over and over again. What do you want to know?

What do I want to know? How about, why in the hell don't you answer the question as I asked it instead of of obfuscating?

865 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:41:57am

re: #856 avanti

She asked a death panel sort of a question, suggesting that a 74 year old would be denied treatment and he said that was a "malicious lie".

Do you have a link?

866 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:42:08am

re: #800 drcordell

Follow the thread... I've tried to explain the concept of fiat currency to Wendya three straight posts, and she can't wrap her head around it. She keeps acting like I'm some nutjob because I understand that the dollar is worth what the government decides it is worth.

The government can decide a dollar should buy a new car, but that doesn't mean people will sell me one for a dollar.

Or if the government can by fiat decide how much a dollar is worth, why do we have the fed using its limited ability to control inflation? They could just say what the dollar is worth and it should stick, right?

867 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:42:26am

re: #864 Wendya

What do I want to know? How about, why in the hell don't you answer the question as I asked it instead of of obfuscating?

I answered it three times! Yes I believe the government owns your money.

868 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:42:31am

re: #854 JammieWearingFool

No link. It was on the radio. Although someone up thread said some blogs were on it.

Here's a clip from Hot Air though I don't believe that portion is on there.

While I wouldn't expect Specter to know every word of the bill, he should know the salient points, especially the controversial ones.

He'll never make it to the general election next year, because Joe Sestak will beat him like a drum in the Dem primary.

869 MarineVet  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:42:32am

oops got a new question now...

Mr. President is your administration prepared to bail out the AARP over your health care causing all of their members to flee? You see, my Father has been a member of the AARP for 8 years and now plans to cancel with them due to their overwhelming special interest support of this garbage you are forcing down our throats!!!

870 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:42:42am

re: #864 Wendya

What do I want to know? How about, why in the hell don't you answer the question as I asked it instead of of obfuscating?

Because he is wicked smahhht. Can't you tell by the condescension?

871 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:42:49am

re: #800 drcordell

Follow the thread... I've tried to explain the concept of fiat currency to Wendya three straight posts, and she can't wrap her head around it. She keeps acting like I'm some nutjob because I understand that the dollar is worth what the government decides it is worth.

Market trumps government.

People trump government, as long as we have anything even vaugely resembling a democracy.

For that matter, the federal reserve is not exactly the government.

Or do you believe otherwise?

872 Kragar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:43:01am

Afternoon Lizards, on my lunch break, I see Barry is up to his usual fun and games

873 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:43:25am

re: #843 JustABill

Since the govt doesn't generally set prices, the dollar is worth what the people believe it is worth. The govt can influence what a dollar is worth by how many it prints or otherwise creates, and it has set prices in the past, but in general producers set prices, subject to the acceptance/rejection of consumers. In so doing they set the value of the dollar (relative to their products)

Multiple updings for explaining it properly.

874 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:43:26am

re: #868 Ward Cleaver

While I wouldn't expect Specter to know every word of the bill, he should know the salient points, especially the controversial ones.

He'll never make it to the general election next year, because Joe Sestak will beat him like a drum in the Dem primary.

Specter is truly bipartisan. Both Democrats and Republicans hate him.

875 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:43:28am

re: #867 drcordell

I answered it three times! Yes I believe the government owns your money.

If the government owns the money I earn, they also own the portion of my life I surrendered to earn that money.

I don't see why you have to dodge and weave to avoid the point.

876 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:43:40am

re: #845 SixDegrees

Heh. I enjoyed the one where Mal kicks the bounty hunter into the ship's engine in the middle of his threats.

It was the minion of a crime lord, actually. Then he turns to the next one...

877 3 wood  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:44:11am

Well, I've been slogging through page after page of HR 3200 and tryingto make sense of it.

Do you want to see an authentic example of government gibberish?

On page 253 you find this:


4 ‘‘(L) VALIDATING RELATIVE VALUE
5 UNITS.—
6 ‘‘(i) IN GENERAL.—The Secretary
7 shall establish a process to validate relative
8 value units under the fee schedule under
9 subsection (b).
10 ‘‘(ii) COMPONENTS AND ELEMENTS
11 OF WORK.—The process described in
12 clause (i) may include validation of work
13 elements (such as time, mental effort and
14 professional judgment, technical skill and
15 physical effort, and stress due to risk) in
16 volved with furnishing a service and may
17 include validation of the pre, post, and
18 intra-service components of work.


Just a tiny example of what this is like.

Back to the fun...

878 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:44:16am

re: #873 Kosh's Shadow

Multiple updings for explaining it properly.

Adam Smith would be proud.

879 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:44:23am

re: #859 drcordell

The dollar fluctuates in value because the government made the decision to float it on the currency markets. Should the Government so desire, they could peg the dollar to any currency they choose.

We talking China or America here?

880 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:44:23am

A tip for those legislators who don't want a scene at their public forums. 1. Make the information available in an easy to understand format,
2. treat people with respect (no condescension)
3. When you say you are there to listen: LISTEN, and for heavens sake
4. don't lie to them in this age of available information.

881 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:44:33am

Look, this entire debate on health care can boil down to the following:

What's in it for me.

For the 85% of Americans who have insurance, they want to know two basic things - will they get to keep their existing coverage, and how much more in taxes are they going to be hit with.

For the 15%, how much will it cost?

So far, the President has done nothing to explain how much this will cost - and that's the key factor in all this. He can't come up with a realistic figure unless he admits to higher taxes.

And as for just how many people are uninsured, this site claims 46 million under 65 are uninsured, which with a population size of 300 million means that 85% of all Americans are insured.

Also, most of those who are uninsured are those who no longer get covered by their parents (18/21 yo cutoff) and haven't found full time jobs that include health insurance coverage. There's no breakdown of how many of that 46 million are illegal aliens, though there is a figure that the number of Hispanics who are uninsured.

Also, for those who think that insurance costs have risen out of proportion to inflation, take a gander at higher education costs - they've risen even higher, meaning that the entry point into the job market - a college degree - is now out of reach for far more people than ever.

882 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:44:35am

re: #871 itellu3times

Market trumps government.

People trump government, as long as we have anything even vaugely resembling a democracy.

For that matter, the federal reserve is not exactly the government.

Or do you believe otherwise?

I'm not saying that the market has ZERO influence over the dollar. But clearly the Federal Reserve is the one making the big decisions. If the Fed announces that they are devaluing the dollar and moving to a new currency, your money won't be worth shit.

883 Dar ul Harb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:44:46am
“I won’t sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit.”

Yeah ...only a bill that multiplies it.

884 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:44:55am

re: #865 MandyManners

Do you have a link?

Can you do a Spock mind meld ? :) Sorry, I just watched it live Mandy, and I recall it fairly well, but no link yet, but I'll look for you.

885 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:45:00am

re: #877 3 wood

Well, I've been slogging through page after page of HR 3200 and tryingto make sense of it.

Do you want to see an authentic example of government gibberish?

On page 253 you find this:


Just a tiny example of what this is like.

Back to the fun...

Cordell can explain it to us mo-rons.

886 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:45:18am

re: #843 JustABill

Yes, and more an more, the value of the US dollar is being set by it's biggest consumer, the Chinese banks. So long as they continue to buy US Treasury Bills, the US dollar will hold its value. But when that day comes... and it will come... when the Chinese finally decide they would rather buy another reserve currency, then watch out. That is the day your life will truly change.

887 LGoPs  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:45:25am

re: #832 reine.de.tout

I'm not getting drcordell either.
The government prints the money and so it owns the currency.

but if I've performed work and I have earned the value of that currency, it just seems to me that value is mine to spend, not the government's. Except drcordell doesn't think so.

Be careful. Drcordell has a college ejukation so he is smarter than most of the rest of us roobs.
/

888 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:45:37am

WH P/R hacks have decided that the rat line is not working to stop the anti-healthcare protest, so they have come up with a more simple, easily understandable campaign that they feel even the average illiterate conservative can get his arms around. The new program uses road signs, known around the WH as BamaShave. I saw the first one just outside of Arlington, VA, today..

The Astroturfers
Have no class
But O's Health Plan
Will save your ass.
BamaSaves.
.

889 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:45:39am

re: #868 Ward Cleaver
I wouldn't expect them to know every page, but a couple weeks back he claimed he didn't have the time to read the bill, a red flag if ever there was one. He claimed he divvies it up and his staff reads it.

Well, he's had enough time for them to read it and be briefed on it. But apparently he hasn't. And people wonder why his constituents are angry. I guess they're supposed to just accept the fact they have an incompetent as Senator.

890 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:45:51am

re: #867 drcordell

I answered it three times! Yes I believe the government owns your money.

Who owns the product of my labor?

What is the currency the product of my labor expressed in?

891 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:45:51am

re: #870 Leonidas Hoplite

Because he is wicked smahhht. Can't you tell by the condescension?

If I asked him to compare the taste of Granny Smith and Red Delicious apples, he'd give me a dissertation on the soil conditions required to grow Mangoes.

892 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:45:53am

re: #876 Dianna

It was the minion of a crime lord, actually. Then he turns to the next one...

One of my favorite quotes:
Reavers.
What would they do if the catch us?

"First, they'll rape us to death. Then, they'll eat our flesh and sew our skins into their clothes. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order."

Even Jayne was scared of Reavers.

893 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:46:13am

re: #884 avanti

Can you do a Spock mind meld ? :) Sorry, I just watched it live Mandy, and I recall it fairly well, but no link yet, but I'll look for you.

I'm looking, too.

894 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:46:31am

re: #857 MandyManners

It never ends. I think socks resproduce themselves.

Did you ever notice though that you start out with two socks and then end up with one? Perhaps that is where these sock puppets come from. Escapees from the sock drawer.

895 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:46:40am

re: #887 LGoPs

Be careful. Drcordell has a college ejukation so he is smarter than most of the rest of us roobs.
/

Everyone here loves putting words in my mouth. How does "the dollar is a fiat currency" turn into "the government has a right to decide how I spend my money."

896 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:46:59am

re: #850 drcordell

Did you even watch the Obama town hall. It's pretty obvious that he got some tough questions from people who were not plants or pre-screened.

Yes I did. It was very much a friendly crowd lobbing softball questions. Even Questioner #3, who identified himself as Republican and commented that he was out of place in the pro-Obamacare rally, gently lobbed his question directly over home base.

897 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:47:00am

re: #887 LGoPs

Be careful. Drcordell has a college ejukation so he is smarter than most of the rest of us roobs.
/

I'm terrible. I read that as "ejaculation".

898 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:47:04am

re: #859 drcordell

The dollar fluctuates in value because the government made the decision to float it on the currency markets. Should the Government so desire, they could peg the dollar to any currency they choose.

You are aware that this reply must be one of the silliest you've ever typed? Think about it, just for a moment.

899 MarineVet  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:47:05am

re: #875 Wendya

No worries now that the governemnt is the automaking business and they have thrown out the US Constitution (God rest its soul) the government can now make its own money and MAKE you buy their cars...zil cars anyone?

900 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:47:10am

re: #891 Wendya

With scary facts about alar he learned while sitting at Al Gore's knee.

901 Ben Hur  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:47:10am

It is impossible that the crowd wasn't screened.

902 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:47:35am

re: #882 drcordell

I'm not saying that the market has ZERO influence over the dollar. But clearly the Federal Reserve is the one making the big decisions. If the Fed announces that they are devaluing the dollar and moving to a new currency, your money won't be worth shit.

Nor will be the next currency when me and a huge group of my constituents give the government the bird and decide to abide by the constitution. If the government would like to join us also, they will be welcome to.

903 SixDegrees  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:47:39am

re: #876 Dianna

It was the minion of a crime lord, actually. Then he turns to the next one...

You're correct. Still,, one of my favorite scenes. The timing in it was absolutely perfect.

It's actually part of one of my favorite story arcs, involving the minion's boss, Niska. It seems to me it spanned two or three episodes. Niska wins, hands down, as one of the creepiest, most appalling villains on television.

904 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:47:47am

re: #767 drcordell

You're telling me that insurance companies are not seeking to make a profit? I have to actively prove the contention that private insurers seek to deny as many claims as possible to make as much money as possible? It's their entire business model.

1) All companies are in the business of making a profit. Do you own a company that make no profit?/ Do you work for nothing?

2) Yes, you do have to prove that insures seek to deny claims. Policies are written based upon the makeup of the group. Insurance companies offer many different plans like 100/80/50 or 80/80/50 for example. If you don't know what that means, you have no credibilty of how insurance policies work.

3) Please explain your understanding of insurance company models, since you claim "it's their entire business."

905 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:47:48am

re: #894 WinterCat

Did you ever notice though that you start out with two socks and then end up with one? Perhaps that is where these sock puppets come from. Escapees from the sock drawer.

That reminds me of a scene from The Young Ones when one of Vivian's socks escapes.

906 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:47:55am

re: #894 WinterCat

Did you ever notice though that you start out with two socks and then end up with one? Perhaps that is where these sock puppets come from. Escapees from the sock drawer.

I think they escape through the dryer's vent.

907 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:47:57am

re: #894 WinterCat

I found the answer a few years ago.
Every now and then, a stray sock finds its way past the filter of the washing machine into the housing. Found two when I had mine repaired recently.

908 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:48:07am

re: #891 Wendya

If I asked him to compare the taste of Granny Smith and Red Delicious apples, he'd give me a dissertation on the soil conditions required to grow Mangoes WEED.

Fixed that, if you don't mind, because he clearly smokes a ton of it.

909 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:48:26am

re: #906 MandyManners

That as well.

910 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:48:30am

re: #890 jcm

Who owns the product of my labor?

What is the currency the product of my labor expressed in?

If your labor gets you paid in dollars, the dollars you receive are your dollars. But VALUE OF THOSE DOLLARS is derived from faith in the government. Is this finally going to put this issue to rest?

911 lincolntf  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:48:36am

I was happy to see that Obama's SEIU supporters were able to refrain from violence in NH today. Let's hope that that signals a change of policy from the previous dissident-beating mentality.

912 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:48:42am

re: #897 MandyManners

I'm terrible. I read that as "ejaculation".

in bed?

913 Bob Dillon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:48:45am

re: #869 MarineVet

oops got a new question now...

Mr. President is your administration prepared to bail out the AARP over your health care causing all of their members to flee? You see, my Father has been a member of the AARP for 8 years and now plans to cancel with them due to their overwhelming special interest support of this garbage you are forcing down our throats!!!

AARP sold out their members decades ago. Better products for the senior were and are available but AARP is only driven by what's in it for them vs what's best for their members.

914 jill e  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:48:51am

Obama 2008—Eliminate Private Insurance Over Time.

As the article asks at the end...was Obama misinforming Democratic primary voters in 2008? Or is he misinforming the American people now?

915 RELOADINGISNOTAHOBBY  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:48:51am

Wow! Some really great questions out there!
Still waiting on the ...oh ! There it is!
Someone actually asked!
NOW we know!!...

I Win ! I win !
It's BOXERS!!!
///

916 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:48:55am

re: #900 tradewind

With scary facts about alar he learned while sitting at Al Gore's knee.

Alar? Don't get Meryl Streep started now.

917 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:49:12am

re: #898 Dianna

You are aware that this reply must be one of the silliest you've ever typed? Think about it, just for a moment.

I did... do you understand how currency works?

918 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:49:36am

re: #912 Mad Al-Jaffee

in bed?

I'm gonna' shake my scepter at you.

919 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:49:42am

re: #911 lincolntf

Yep...McCaskill also had one and she gave us the current dodge the libs are hiding behind..

"Oh thats the other bill..not the one I read.."

920 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:49:45am

re: #881 lawhawk

Look, this entire debate on health care can boil down to the following:

What's in it for me.

For the 85% of Americans who have insurance, they want to know two basic things - will they get to keep their existing coverage, and how much more in taxes are they going to be hit with.

For the 15%, how much will it cost?

So far, the President has done nothing to explain how much this will cost - and that's the key factor in all this. He can't come up with a realistic figure unless he admits to higher taxes.

And as for just how many people are uninsured, this site claims 46 million under 65 are uninsured, which with a population size of 300 million means that 85% of all Americans are insured.

Also, most of those who are uninsured are those who no longer get covered by their parents (18/21 yo cutoff) and haven't found full time jobs that include health insurance coverage. There's no breakdown of how many of that 46 million are illegal aliens, though there is a figure that the number of Hispanics who are uninsured.

Also, for those who think that insurance costs have risen out of proportion to inflation, take a gander at higher education costs - they've risen even higher, meaning that the entry point into the job market - a college degree - is now out of reach for far more people than ever.

I just clicked the little heart icon on your brilliant post. It doesn't mean we are engaged or anything.

921 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:49:58am

re: #917 drcordell

I did... do you understand how currency works?

Is the Fed a government institution?

922 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:50:08am

Did anybody ask BHO about the SEIU goons that He & his people sent out to the Town Halls last week?

923 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:50:10am

re: #892 Kosh's Shadow

One of my favorite quotes:
Reavers.
What would they do if the catch us?

"First, they'll rape us to death. Then, they'll eat our flesh and sew our skins into their clothes. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order."

Even Jayne was scared of Reavers.

Jayne was one of my favorite characters. That series had fantastic writers.

924 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:50:15am

re: #911 lincolntf

I was happy to see that Obama's SEIU supporters were able to refrain from violence in NH today. Let's hope that that signals a change of policy from the previous dissident-beating mentality.

They know they've been discovered.

925 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:50:31am

re: #922 opnion

Did anybody ask BHO about the SEIU goons that He & his people sent out to the Town Halls last week?

What SEIU goons?

926 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:50:33am

re: #921 pianobuff

Is the Fed a government institution?

It's the Federal Reserve Bank of the United States. I'd consider it a Government institution, yes.

927 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:50:39am

re: #910 drcordell

If your labor gets you paid in dollars, the dollars you receive are your dollars. But VALUE OF THOSE DOLLARS is derived from faith in the government. Is this finally going to put this issue to rest?

Here, you have something; if there is no faith in the government, the value as perceived by others goes down. But this is quite different from the government setting the value, which is certainly what you seemed to be saying before.

928 badger1970  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:50:57am

Other famous sayings: "I'll sell no wine before its time." "This ship is unsinkable" "They can't hit an elephant and this dist..."; "Read my lips, NO NEW TAXES" "I did not have any relations with that woman, Monica Lewinski." paraphrase; "You'll keep your crown unless the forest moves." "I did not knowingly bet on any major league games."

929 JustABill  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:50:57am

re: #859 drcordell

The dollar fluctuates in value because the government made the decision to float it on the currency markets. Should the Government so desire, they could peg the dollar to any currency they choose.

They could try, and in fact they did try. For a long time, the value of the dollar was tied to gold. If memory serves 1oz = $40. This helped the dollar become the worlds reserve currency. However, reallity got in the way, when the actual price of gold (in the markets) rose above what the govt would exchange it at, the govt had to scrap the dollars tie to gold or risk depleating its gold reserves...

930 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:51:09am

re: #891 Wendya

If I asked him to compare the taste of Granny Smith and Red Delicious apples, he'd give me a dissertation on the soil conditions required to grow Mangoes.


In either case the answer includes loads of manure. /

931 Seattle Rep  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:51:11am

re: #699 Oh no...Sand People!

kamusta ka pansit putang ina. (how are you rice noodles your mother is a whore) is all one of my white buddies could say. It didn't help him much =)
I'm Filipino and when he greeted me that way I laughed my a** off!

Cheers,
SR

932 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:51:23am

re: #923 Wendya
I am a firefly lover too.
Big time. Jayne is adam Baldwin..he was also in Full Metal Jacket as Animal-mother

933 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:51:23am

re: #919 quiet man

The offspring of Obama's ' not the Reverend Wright I knew'.
Now codified into Democrat lingo.

934 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:51:27am

re: #926 drcordell

It's the Federal Reserve Bank of the United States. I'd consider it a Government institution, yes.

*ERRR* / *WRONG*

You do not pass go...or collect 200 dollars. You get to 'spread your wealth'...

935 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:51:41am

re: #910 drcordell

If your labor gets you paid in dollars, the dollars you receive are your dollars.

Except when they belong to the government, right?

936 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:51:47am

re: #881 lawhawk

Another thought here:

This debate also mirrors the supposed crisis in increasing homeownership rates. Typically, there was a given percentage of home owners, and Congress decided that they wanted to increase that figure, thinking that this is for a societal good. They tinkered with the real estate markets - directly through things like affordable housing programs, rent stabilization and rent control, as well as putting the screws to lenders to open up credit lines to those they had previously thought were incapable of repaying loan obligations.

They increased the percentage of homeowners in the country, but then everything came crashing down - the credit markets tanked, the real estate market tanked, and the taxpayer was left holding the bag.

Now, we've got a replay on our hands, with the government saying that 85% insured is insufficient, so we must make wholesale changes to make it 100%, without recognizing costs, let alone the unintended consequences.

937 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:51:49am

re: #882 drcordell

I'm not saying that the market has ZERO influence over the dollar. But clearly the Federal Reserve is the one making the big decisions. If the Fed announces that they are devaluing the dollar and moving to a new currency, your money won't be worth shit.

I must take back my earlier comment, the forgoing is the silliest post I've read from you.

938 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:51:53am

re: #917 drcordell

I did... do you understand how currency works?

I'd rather ask 3 Wood about how currency works. He's a lot smarter than you about Wall Street, and he's a lot nicer than you.

939 Cato  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:51:57am

re: #904 midwestgak

I had an insurance company disallow a payment. My son was premature and ran up a quarter million dollar bill. The insurance company paid for everything except one medicine they viewed as experimental. It cost me $25 out of pocket. He is fine and I was very happy to pay.

940 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:51:58am

re: #887 LGoPs

Be careful. Drcordell has a college ejukation so he is smarter than most of the rest of us roobs.
/

Awe, fancy book learnin.

941 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:52:36am

re: #927 Kosh's Shadow

Here, you have something; if there is no faith in the government, the value as perceived by others goes down. But this is quite different from the government setting the value, which is certainly what you seemed to be saying before.

Well, I was saying that before. The Government does have the power to set the value of their currency. It doesn't mean that value is going to match 100% with the value the markets set for that currency. But I wouldn't want to be holding a currency that has been devalued by the Government that issued it.

942 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:52:37am

re: #897 MandyManners

I'm terrible. I read that as "ejaculation".

LOL - P*MTA!

*P = Preverted

943 pianobuff  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:52:40am

re: #926 drcordell

It's the Federal Reserve Bank of the United States. I'd consider it a Government institution, yes.

Sure about that now?

944 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:52:44am

re: #933 tradewind

The phrase that needs to be codified is

"Let's just give them the pain pill"

945 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:52:58am

re: #910 drcordell

If your labor gets you paid in dollars, the dollars you receive are your dollars. But VALUE OF THOSE DOLLARS is derived from faith in the government. Is this finally going to put this issue to rest?

No.

Yes I believe the government owns your money.

So if the government owns my money (your words) they own my labor expressed in dollars.

Ergo, I am a slave.

946 badger1970  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:53:00am

re: #876 Dianna

I'm here for two seconds and already a "Firefly" reference?

947 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:53:04am

re: #913 Bobibutu

AARP sold out their members decades ago. Better products for the senior were and are available but AARP is only driven by what's in it for them vs what's best for their members.

I don't think they even think about what is best for their members, but what will keep them in business.
How is selling out their members, so many of them have poorer quality of life because medical procedures aren't "cost effective" to the government, best for their members?
Or maybe they cut a deal with Obama where their members can get out of the government plan, like the unions can.

948 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:53:04am

re: #925 pianobuff

What SEIU goons?

Let me walk it back, the peaceful Union observers.

949 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:53:04am
950 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:53:10am

re: #911 lincolntf

I was happy to see that Obama's SEIU supporters were able to refrain from violence in NH today. Let's hope that that signals a change of policy from the previous dissident-beating mentality.

Maybe their former political director, now FCBBHO's political director, gave them a call.

951 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:53:16am

re: #931 Seattle Rep

kamusta ka pansit putang ina. (how are you rice noodles your mother is a whore) is all one of my white buddies could say. It didn't help him much =)
I'm Filipino and when he greeted me that way I laughed my a** off!

Cheers,
SR

Mabuti lang. Nakaka tawa po!

952 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:53:24am

re: #602 drcordell

Congress already has a Federally administered health care plan.

Cool! Let's use the exact same one for all!

953 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:53:29am

re: #911 lincolntf

I was happy to see that Obama's SEIU supporters were able to refrain from violence in NH today. Let's hope that that signals a change of policy from the previous dissident-beating mentality.

There were no dissidents there to beat.

954 Motownguy  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:53:30am

screening commentary:

Youtube Video
955 lefort3  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:53:35am

Did he really use the an analogy with FedEx/UPS & the post office?

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

'As long as they have a good product and the government plan has to sustain itself through premiums and other non-tax revenue, private insurers should be able to compete with the government plan, Obama said.

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

Could he have given a better reason not to go with this proposal? Teleprompter crash? Hanging out with Biden too much? Good grief.

956 3 wood  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:53:44am

re: #859 drcordell

The dollar fluctuates in value because the government made the decision to float it on the currency markets. Should the Government so desire, they could peg the dollar to any currency they choose.


There is a lot more to pegging the value than that. The government would have to buy their own currency or print it, at needed, to keep the currency on the pegged value.

Problem is, what do you buy it with when you have to? Eventually the government runs out of other assets to buy their own currency with.

957 JustABill  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:53:46am

re: #878 Ward Cleaver

Adam Smith would be proud.

Wow, thanks. And thank you as well Kosh.

958 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:54:10am

re: #948 opnion
Yes.."Goons" is a bit harsh for the right..we need to speak softly and remain on our knees

959 Shug  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:54:12am

was in the doctors lounge enjoying a free bowl of beef and barley soup when "The One" started speaking.

Heard the lemmings behind him chanting "yes we can'

several of the docs,especially immigrants from Eastern Europe were giving Cat calls.

One guy said, who knew that if you opposed him you were a Nazi.

priceless. we're not one bit fooled

960 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:54:17am

re: #935 Wendya

Except when they belong to the government, right?

I'm done responding to you. You clearly keep trying to goad me into "admitting" that I think the Government has a right to tell you how to spend your money. A concept that you clearly cannot separate from the concept that the value of your money is created by faith in the Government.

961 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:54:38am

re: #906 MandyManners

I think they escape through the dryer's vent.

Lift out your washing machine's agitator.

962 Ay, Caramba  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:54:42am

re: #525 Ward Cleaver

Massaging which leg? His third leg?

The one that kept tingling whenever her heard obama speak.

963 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:54:45am

re: #945 jcm

No.

Yes I believe the government owns your money.

So if the government owns my money (your words) they own my labor expressed in dollars.

Ergo, I am a slave.

Yes you are a slave.

964 Kragar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:54:55am

Seems like everytime I hit quote or reply, I get kicked out to the homepage

965 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:55:01am

re: #953 doppelganglander
They were beat outside off camera..It will be the offbeat hit of the year

966 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:55:10am

re: #932 quiet man

I am a firefly lover too.
Big time. Jayne is adam Baldwin..he was also in Full Metal Jacket as Animal-mother

I didn't see the series when it aired. I picked up a copy of Serenity when it was released and then ordered the entire series. It really was a clever show and I'm sorry it didn't make it past one season.

967 avanti  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:55:24am

re: #893 MandyManners

I'm looking, too.

It might be in here Mandy, but I can't watch it again.

link.

968 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:55:25am

DrCordell:

You are one of few reasons I have left for reading health care arguments on this blog. Keep speaking truth to stoopid!

969 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:55:37am

re: #961 Dianna

Lift out your washing machine's agitator.

Are you saying my washer has a community organizer in it?

970 jill e  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:55:41am

re: #958 quiet man

Yes.."Goons" is a bit harsh for the right..we need to speak softly and remain on our knees

Goonies?

971 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:55:57am

re: #969 MandyManners

Are you saying my washer has a community organizer in it?

It's a left wing agitator.

972 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:56:00am

re: #832 reine.de.tout

I'm not getting drcordell either.
The government prints the money and so it owns the currency.

but if I've performed work and I have earned the value of that currency, it just seems to me that value is mine to spend, not the government's. Except drcordell doesn't think so.

Some History on Confidence in Currency

973 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:56:04am

re: #956 3 wood

There is a lot more to pegging the value than that. The government would have to buy their own currency or print it, at needed, to keep the currency on the pegged value.

Problem is, what do you buy it with when you have to? Eventually the government runs out of other assets to buy their own currency with.

I wasn't speaking to the mechanics of how pegging would be accomplished. I simply was attempting to explain to certain individuals that a Federal Reserve can affect the market value of their currency if they so desire.

974 lincolntf  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:56:06am

re: #924 MandyManners

I hope so. The presence of the President himself might have tempered their behavior for today.
Obama has at least two more public appearances left to make this week, so he'll have plenty of opportunities to re-inflame his nutroots if he feels violence is once again required at the local level. We'll see.

975 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:56:10am

Charles,

You'll love this, even if it was on Fox: latest antivaxer thought re swine flu vaccine

"I'll just take my child to a swine flu party and she'll develop natural community immunity".


God help us.

976 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:56:19am
977 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:56:29am

Does it bother anyone, President Obama is on video, albeit from some years ago, unconditionally contradicting his position now?

Seriously?

978 leftover54  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:56:31am

OT- waaay OT - don't know if this link has already been posted but it will be worth your time and effort to check it out and see if these are new to you:
D Day 65 years ago -Denver Post
Click on the first picture and you'll go to slide show mode.
Click on each picture and a larger version pops up revealing much more detail. Fantastic pix.
Sorry if a 'repeat'.

979 Ben Hur  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:56:49am

Does the government run the post office?

980 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:56:50am

re: #960 drcordell

I'm done responding to you.

There is a God!

It's just as well since you refuse to address my questions and instead twist them into an opportunity for you to pontificate.

981 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:57:01am

re: #967 avanti

It might be in here Mandy, but I can't watch it again.

link.

Ten minutes! Yikes! I'll watch it later.

Thank you, Avanti.

982 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:57:05am

re: #917 drcordell

I did... do you understand how currency works?

Better than you!

Good heavenly day, man! I haven't read such sustained idiocy about currency since the last time I tried to read Lyndon LaRouche's paper!

983 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:57:06am

re: #966 Wendya

It really was..I, too saw serenity before the series..I thought it was too hard to understand..then I saw the entire series and thank Josh for the closure and the kindness he showed those of us who love the story by making it..He made his cash, sure, but if you listen to the commentary of serenity..It enhances the series that much more

984 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:57:15am

re: #977 formercorpsman

Does it bother anyone, President Obama is on video, albeit from some years ago, unconditionally contradicting his position now?

Seriously?

"These are not the droids you're looking for..."

/waves hand...

985 3 wood  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:57:25am

re: #910 drcordell

But VALUE OF THOSE DOLLARS is derived from faith in the government. Is this finally going to put this issue to rest?

The fact that monetary policy works is proof that there is a lot more to it than that.

986 Shug  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:57:34am

Why are you people wasting your time with a complete fucktard?

987 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:57:38am

re: #980 Wendya

There is a God!

It's just as well since you refuse to address my questions and instead twist them into an opportunity for you to pontificate.

And He loves you!

988 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:57:57am

re: #968 Cato the Elder

DrCordell:

You are one of few reasons I have left for reading health care arguments on this blog. Keep speaking truth to stoopid!

I appreciate it. I'm not trying to make anyone agree with me, or ram anything down anyone's throat. I just want an honest dialogue that doesn't involve discussions of euthanasia or ridiculous claims that "everything is fine." Shit's broken, it needs to be fixed. And if we can have a rational discussion about what to do it would benefit everyone.

989 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:58:07am

re: #971 Ward Cleaver

It's a left wing agitator.

That might explain why the loads get off-balance sometimes.

990 badger1970  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:58:15am

re: #971 Ward Cleaver

So are we talking about a clockwise spin or counter-clockwise spin? It gets confusing.

991 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:58:23am

re: #986 Shug

Why are you people wasting your time with a complete fucktard?

'Cause it's amusing.

992 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:58:31am

re: #979 Ben Hur

Does the government run the post office?

Not the day to day operations. They write the laws under which, the USPS operates.

993 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:58:34am

re: #983 quiet man

Now we can only hope that the producers of Lost will show us the same courtesy, since this next season is The End.

994 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:58:35am

re: #977 formercorpsman

Does it bother anyone, President Obama is on video, albeit from some years ago, unconditionally contradicting his position now?

Seriously?

Nope, doesn't bother me a bit.
*spit*

995 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:58:42am

re: #983 quiet man

It really was..I, too saw serenity before the series..I thought it was too hard to understand..then I saw the entire series and thank Josh for the closure and the kindness he showed those of us who love the story by making it..He made his cash, sure, but if you listen to the commentary of serenity..It enhances the series that much more

I haven't seen the Firefly series, but Serenity is hands down in my top 20 list of unfilled spots for movies.

996 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:58:42am

re: #990 badger1970

So are we talking about a clockwise spin or counter-clockwise spin? It gets confusing.

Counter-culture spin.

997 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:58:50am

re: #472 Charles

Remember this quote:

"I won't sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit."

He can keep that promise if he reneges on another, namely, not raising taxes on anyone but "teh richhh." Something's gotta give.

998 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:59:00am

re: #946 badger1970

I'm here for two seconds and already a "Firefly" reference?

A lot of us seem to like it.

999 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:59:06am

re: #988 drcordell

Sure stuff is broken but please provide for me one program that the government has managed without running a deficit or completely mismanaging it to the point of utter failure?

1000 Kragar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:59:11am

re: #986 Shug

Why are you people wasting your time with a complete fucktard?

Well, he does happen to be President right now.

1001 Bob Dillon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:59:17am

re: #947 Kosh's Shadow

Or maybe they cut a deal with Obama where their members can get out of the government plan, like the unions can.

Who knows? The bill is still a work in progress by committee. (and we know what that means) They don't even know. Oh sorry - I forgot - the liar in chief knows and he is telling us how it will be. He gives new meaning to omniscience.

1002 neomexicon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:59:22am

My question:
Mr. President, in spite of Medicare and Medicaid going bankrupt and our deficit spiraling out of control. You plan to add more of the same?

1003 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:59:33am

re: #997 medaura18586

Wow, random creepy website appeared under my nic on the last post... strange...

1004 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:59:37am

re: #953 doppelganglander

There were no dissidents there to beat.

I now understand your warning about the 'doc'...

1005 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:59:38am

re: #954 Motownguy

screening commentary:


[Video]


Hey, it's your first post! Are you a Paulian?

1006 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:59:55am

re: #1000 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

BWAAAHAAAHAAA!!!

1007 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 11:59:56am

re: #993 tradewind

I think the writers and producers of Lost are Jazz lovers...They all want their little song to be heard no matter how it works with the rest..

Lost made me ill.

1008 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:00:14pm

re: #906 MandyManners

What I need is lessons on folding fitted sheets properly. Mine end up looking a jumbled mess, which makes the linen closet not neat and tidy looking. Is there a government program for me that includes a sheet folder upper?

1009 RELOADINGISNOTAHOBBY  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:00:18pm

re: #977 formercorpsman

More than once...
You'd think the teleprompter guy would do a little research!!

1010 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:00:20pm

re: #968 Cato the Elder

DrCordell:

You are one of few reasons I have left for reading health care arguments on this blog. Keep speaking truth to stoopid!

Come on Cato, "stoopid" is not agreeing with you & DrCordell?
Sounds a little pompous.
I posted why he is wrong about insurance bureaucrats not being compensated for denying claims & no reply from him.
If you are so in agreement , you must believe that too?

1011 Kragar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:00:29pm

re: #998 Dianna

A lot of us seem to like it.

Good show, died before its time.

"Gee, sure would be nice if I had some GRENADES right about now!"

1012 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:00:35pm

re: #988 drcordell

I appreciate it. I'm not trying to make anyone agree with me, or ram anything down anyone's throat. I just want an honest dialogue that doesn't involve discussions of euthanasia or ridiculous claims that "everything is fine." Shit's broken, it needs to be fixed. And if we can have a rational discussion about what to do it would benefit everyone.

The health care system does need an overhaul, but the people running Congress and the White House are patently unqualified to do the overhauling.

1013 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:00:47pm

re: #974 lincolntf

I hope so. The presence of the President himself might have tempered their behavior for today.
Obama has at least two more public appearances left to make this week, so he'll have plenty of opportunities to re-inflame his nutroots if he feels violence is once again required at the local level. We'll see.

I maintain that this audience was screened.

1014 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:00:47pm

re: #982 Dianna

Better than you!

Good heavenly day, man! I haven't read such sustained idiocy about currency since the last time I tried to read Lyndon LaRouche's paper!

What do you disagree with that I said? I'm serious, I didn't say anything that I would perceive to be blatantly obvious. The dollar is a fiat currency. The value of fiat currencies are based on faith that the U.S. gov't will repay its obligations. Is this false?

1015 WinterCat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:00:47pm

re: #989 MandyManners

That might explain why the loads get off-balance sometimes.

Yes, and then everything goes down the drain.

1016 badger1970  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:00:56pm

re: #975 tradewind

They must think this is the chicken pox. I swear once a neighbor kid got it we all were invited to his house. I still got it twice as a kid but swine flu as far as I know isn't something that the body can be immune to.

1017 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:00:59pm

re: #1007 quiet man

I'm sorry. If you're not still watching it, maybe you should go back. It pulled up and went around just in time.

1018 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:01:00pm

re: #999 Jetpilot1101

Sure stuff is broken but please provide for me one program that the government has managed without running a deficit or completely mismanaging it to the point of utter failure?

The Iraq war?

1019 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:01:05pm

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

1020 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:01:29pm

re: #640 MandyManners

Why is this being done in the middle of the day?

The taxpayers are all working and will be paying?

1021 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:01:31pm

re: #1013 MandyManners

I maintain that this audience was screened.

I'm sure you do.

1022 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:01:33pm

re: #1013 MandyManners

re: #974 lincolntf


I maintain that this audience was screened.


of course it was..all of them are..and you might recall that all of his other town halls were not only screen, but seeded.

1023 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:01:49pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

My condolences to you.

1024 Shug  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:01:49pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

Sorry for your loss

1025 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:01:54pm

re: #995 Oh no...Sand People!

I haven't seen the Firefly series, but Serenity is hands down in my top 20 list of unfilled spots for movies.

GET THE SERIES!

Meanwhile, I have to catch up on Joss Whedon's lates show, Dollhouse, before season 2 starts.
One big difference - I can't say I really like any of the characters, including Carolyn (Echo before the Dollhouse).
And anyone who knows much about old science fiction will have a big hint about the work behind the dollhouse when they see the company's name that either runs them or created the process used to make the "dolls".

1026 redstateredneck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:01:56pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

Condolences on your loss.

1027 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:00pm

re: #1014 drcordell

What do you disagree with that I said? I'm serious, I didn't say anything that I would perceive to be blatantly obvious. The dollar is a fiat currency. The value of fiat currencies are based on faith that the U.S. gov't will repay its obligations. Is this false?

Issuing a dollar isn't an ogligation. Issuing debt is.

1028 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:00pm

re: #859 drcordell

The dollar fluctuates in value because the government made the decision to float it on the currency markets. Should the Government so desire, they could peg the dollar to any currency they choose.

The way I understand currency fluctuation, the simplest way to describe it is supply and demand. For example, if a countries interest rate is higher, and the currency is safe, more people will want to invest and need to buy that currency. The more demand for that currency, the higher its value in relation to other currencies.

Not a lot of trade right now in Iraqi Dinars... so 20,000 Iraqi dinars is worth about $20USD.

If suddenly there was a lot of demand for Iraqi Dinars (high exports that need to be paid for in Dinars for example), then its value would go up.

When the Canadian Government has set a higher interest rate than (for example) the USA bank rate there is slightly more demand for Canadian dollars. For may investors the Canadian dollar is as safe as the American Dollar.

Demand for stocks, and investing in Wall Street that must be paid for in USD has made the USD more stable over the past few decades. Also Oil has been priced and sold in USD dollars (although that might reduce further).

Although governments have (Japan and Mexico for example) have pushed aside the invisible hand from time to time. It is the exception, and not the rule.

1029 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:01pm

I guess here is my problem with the stances of "angry people at government meetings undermine their position" or "angry people at open forums ruin the forums for everyone else."

Folks here may recall the wildfires a couple years back in San Diego County.

Many governments and citizens here got high praise in the media for handling things well and offering a natural disaster counterpoint to Katrina.

Well I happened to live (and still do) in this area of a city named Poway called "High Valley". In contrast to what was portrayed broadly in the media (and was probably accurate in terms of the response in all of Southern California) Poway make some pretty stupid decisions regarding High Valley. Without filling pages of detail, the City Manager decided to evacuate and cordon off all of High Valley and simply let it all burn. For 4 days. Even when the state resources arrived to take things over from the City, those resources were directed to not go to High Valley and were even told (falsely) that High Valley was not part of Poway.

We later learned that the City Manager made the decision for the safety of the fire fighters. It is a position he has stuck with even though there are firefighters who went on the record to say they wanted to fight in High Valley and felt safe doing so.

So what does that have to do with Obamacare townhalls?

Well the situation after the fire got bad between residents and the City. Threats of lawsuits and all of that. Insurance carriers started talking about dropping coverage if the area would not get fire protection and the city even blocked efforts by residents to form a volunteer fire fighting force to defend the area next time around.

The City Manager then decided to hold an open air townhall up in High Valley. I attended as did most every other adult in the area. Things started very politely and many smiles were seen and goodwill expressed as we all had barbecue before the formal meeting started with probably 250 or so folks milling about. Then the City Manager made a speech, parts of which provoked moans and groans from the audience. Then questions came. Right off the bat someone asked if, knowing what he knew now (that 40+ homes burned over the course of 4 days with low wind and manageable humidity conditions, and that the CDF had said there was no real danger in fighting fires there) would he make the same call, and the city manager said "yes".

At that point, people started getting angry and started asking more and more pointed questions. These are not "bibles and guns" types - these were your typical upper middle class / upper class educated yuppies. Standing next to me was a sitting judge and his wife who is a sitting judge (lawyers in SD County will know who I am speaking of) who got up and started yelling at the city manager.

Point is that incompetence in governance can motivate a "mob". It does not require astroturfing or agitators. If you have something at stake and the government doesn't want to listen and simply holds a forum as a formality / PR gesture, you will yell. Even if your day job is to run a courtroom.

As for the "code pink" comparisons - most members of code pink don't have a dog in the fight. Most aren't in uniform or have a loved one fighting the war, yet their moral stance is so absolute that they must shout it out.

But when you have a dog in the fight - and anyone with a medical problem does - then there is a different basis for your complaint about an obstinate government that is going through the motions of "listening".

I am healthy and self insured. So my passions don't run too high on Obamacare. But I was arrested trying to defend my home from a wildfire and then got to see pictures of my house on fire plastered on the front page of Yahoo news for 2 days while sitting in an evacuation center. Fortunately, my house was saved by some guys from the Lawrence Livermore Labs Fire Department who happened to be in the "wrong area". My neighbors are still rebuilding - only one house has been completed.

1030 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:04pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

{lawhawk} Take care.

1031 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:20pm

re: #999 Jetpilot1101

Sure stuff is broken but please provide for me one program that the government has managed without running a deficit or completely mismanaging it to the point of utter failure?

As much as I don't want to burst this bubble, I will throw in the 'military'...I know our military is the best. (I am sure the gov't has screwed up infinite amount of times with it however...and I am sure it's just a giant deficit, BUT it's at least something I am willing to throw quadragazillionbillions towards anyday however..)

1032 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:22pm

re: #986 Shug

Why are you people wasting your time with a complete fucktard?

I dropped the rope.

1033 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:23pm

re: #867 drcordell

I answered it three times! Yes I believe the government owns your money.

You said the government decides what it is worth.

1034 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:27pm

re: #1018 drcordell

The Iraq war?

Last time I checked the Iraq war wasn't turning a profit and the military is not exactly what I would call the peak of efficiency and I say that with 15 years experience under my belt.

1035 KenJen  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:29pm

re: #955 lefort3

Did he really use the an analogy with FedEx/UPS & the post office?

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

'As long as they have a good product and the government plan has to sustain itself through premiums and other non-tax revenue, private insurers should be able to compete with the government plan, Obama said.

"They do it all the time," he said. "UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. ... It's the Post Office that's always having problems."

Could he have given a better reason not to go with this proposal? Teleprompter crash? Hanging out with Biden too much? Good grief.

I'm sooo embarrassed that this guy is our President.

1036 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:29pm

re: #1018 drcordell

The Iraq war?

Would that be under the Bush or Obama adminstration under which you are attempting to use that canard?

1037 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:30pm

The argument over the "death panel" is a bit of a red herring. It doesn't matter whether the final bill, and we haven't seen the final bill yet, includes provisions for such a panel or panels. What does matter is this: when the healthcare you can obtain is dictated by a state-run system, limited resources will be rationed. Patient will be triaged. Waiting lists for treatment will grow. Less important patients will be bumped down the list.

Last fall, up here in Canada, my 78 year old mother was bumped down the list for surgery on a tumor on her pancreas. Morning after morning she was scheduled for surgery, given nothing to eat for 12 hours, then bumped down the list again. This went on for 4 fucking weeks before she got her operation! By then the tumor had spread. There wasn't much they could do but give her pain-killers for the last few weeks of her life. Even that they screwed up until we pushed and harangued the doctors to give her something better that would kill the pain without making her sick. She died in February. If she could have gotten prompt diagnosis -that too was delayed by waiting lists- and then prompt treatment, she might still be with us.

Do you want to loose control of your own choices for your healthcare? While simultaneously lowering the quality of that care? And paying more taxes for it?

The argument for universal healthcare is that there are far too many people without coverage and they are suffering. Very true. Something needs to be done to fix that problem. But tell me this: do you believe this is the president and this is the congress that are competent and honest and capable enough to find the best solution to that problem? Are the plans they have proposed so far going to do it? What's your confidence level?

1038 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:38pm

re: #963 drcordell

Yes you are a slave.

I'm a slave only 40% of the time, my effective tax rate.

I'll be damned if I'll be any more a slave to the likes of Pelosi and Reid.

1039 BlueCanuck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:41pm

re: #999 Jetpilot1101

Sure stuff is broken but please provide for me one program that the government has managed without running a deficit or completely mismanaging it to the point of utter failure?

A Canadian example. The brought in a firearm registry and changed all firearm rules back in the mid 90's. We were told it would cost a few million and be funded by the liscencing payments by firearm owners. Four years later it was revealed that the total cost was over one billion dollars, and there were issues with the data base. Government efficiency in action.

1040 zombie  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:45pm
UPDATE at 8/11/09 11:07:29 am:

Remember this quote, repeated several times by Obama:

“I won’t sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit.”

Hahahahaha! [Wipes away tears of laughter.] Oh, that's rich.

1041 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:02:49pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

I'm sorry to heard that. Take care.

1042 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:03:05pm

re: #1027 Leonidas Hoplite

Issuing a dollar isn't an ogligation. Issuing debt is.

Didn't say it was. The obligations (debt) that the U.S. gov't issues are T-bills. If the U.S. suddenly stopped making debt payments to T-bill holders, the dollar would start to become worthless.

1043 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:03:12pm

re: #1004 Oh no...Sand People!

I now understand your warning about the 'doc'...

I honestly can't remember what I said.

1044 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:03:33pm

re: #1000 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Well, he does happen to be President right now.

Dr Pepper is very sticky.

1045 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:03:42pm

re: #1016 badger1970

Everybody's parents did that, back in the day... before they realized that chicken pox could occasionally lead to disaster.
But not nearly as often, or in the ways that the measles, mumps, and pertussis viruses can , and that is the idiocy that is the antivaxer thought.

1046 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:03:48pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

*Powerhug*

1047 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:04:02pm

re: #1038 jcm

I'm a slave only 40% of the time, my effective tax rate.

I'll be damned if I'll be any more a slave to the likes of Pelosi and Reid.

Apparently slaves don't get educated on the concept of marginal tax brackets.

1048 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:04:05pm

re: #995 Oh no...Sand People!

I haven't seen the Firefly series, but Serenity is hands down in my top 20 list of unfilled spots for movies.

Watch the series then Serenity again, it makes it much, much better.

1049 tradewind  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:04:11pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Sympathies to you and your family, lawhawk.

1050 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:04:13pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

So sorry to hear it.

1051 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:04:16pm

re: #1013 MandyManners

I maintain that this audience was screened.

The Office still demands respect, contrary to what some well known liberals seem to believe. Congress, somewhat less so.

1052 redstateredneck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:04:23pm

re: #1032 MandyManners

I dropped the rope.

{mandy}
LOL!

1053 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:04:30pm

re: #1008 ArmyWife

What I need is lessons on folding fitted sheets properly. Mine end up looking a jumbled mess, which makes the linen closet not neat and tidy looking. Is there a government program for me that includes a sheet folder upper?

You'll learn how to fold sheets in camp, comrade.

1054 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:04:31pm

re: #1041 Kosh's Shadow

re: #1019 lawhawk


I'm sorry to heard that. Take care.

Sorry for the Loss...My condolences, Sir

1055 Gang of One  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:04:41pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

My condolences, lawhawk.

1056 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:05:09pm

re: #1015 WinterCat

Yes, and then everything goes down the drain.

With a giant, sucking sound.

1057 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:05:15pm

re: #1029 karmic_inquisitor

Point is that incompetence in governance can motivate a "mob". It does not require astroturfing or agitators. If you have something at stake and the government doesn't want to listen and simply holds a forum as a formality / PR gesture, you will yell. Even if your day job is to run a courtroom.

I've attended enough town council meetings to know all hell can break loose when elected officials treat their constituents with contempt.

1058 lincolntf  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:05:16pm

re: #988 drcordell

"Shit's broken, it needs to be fixed."

Depending on what numbers you use, 85-90% of Americans are already insured. Our medical system produces more innovations than any other in the world. Our "outcomes" are top-notch. Broken is in the eye of the beholder.

The only part oif the system that's "broken" is the Gov't run part. Medicare/Medicaid/VA routinely fail to do what Obama says this new "reform" will do. Why should we believe him? He's made it clear (before he conveniently flip-flopped) that his goal is to institute a "single-payer" system which would essentially outlaw private insurance. That is his goal. This horrible health care proposal is about finance and power, not about health.

1059 Seattle Rep  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:05:44pm

re: #988 drcordell

I appreciate it. I'm not trying to make anyone agree with me, or ram anything down anyone's throat. I just want an honest dialogue that doesn't involve discussions of euthanasia or ridiculous claims that "everything is fine." Shit's broken, it needs to be fixed. And if we can have a rational discussion about what to do it would benefit everyone.

Yes Healthcare is broken and we all agree it needs overhaul, but not like this. We should get rid of the mandates attached to our plans that we don't need. I'm a 38 yr old man with all his hair. I don't need my health care plan to cover hair plugs, breast reconstruction or treat alcoholism I don't have. Oh, and I'm not planning on any abortions either so I don't want to have to pay for those...and uh, I don't have any plans to go to an actupuncturist.

1060 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:05:50pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

My sympathies. Seek as many friends and family out as possible. Grief is divided by the number of people in your life. Just as happiness is multiplied.

1061 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:06:06pm

re: #1058 lincolntf

"Shit's broken, it needs to be fixed."

Depending on what numbers you use, 85-90% of Americans are already insured. Our medical system produces more innovations than any other in the world. Our "outcomes" are top-notch. Broken is in the eye of the beholder.

The only part oif the system that's "broken" is the Gov't run part. Medicare/Medicaid/VA routinely fail to do what Obama says this new "reform" will do. Why should we believe him? He's made it clear (before he conveniently flip-flopped) that his goal is to institute a "single-payer" system which would essentially outlaw private insurance. That is his goal. This horrible health care proposal is about finance and power, not about health.

Either you truly have no idea how many people in this country are currently living, or you are being willfully ignorant.

1062 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:06:27pm

re: #832 reine.de.tout

I'm not getting drcordell either.
The government prints the money and so it owns the currency.

but if I've performed work and I have earned the value of that currency, it just seems to me that value is mine to spend, not the government's. Except drcordell doesn't think so.

It's simple.

You have not earned any value whatsoever. You have earned X amount of that currency. What the value is (value = what you can get for that currency) is determined by the market (= us), the exchange rates, and what value the government sets on your paper. If for whatever reasons the government (any government) decides to devalue its currency by 20% tomorrow, your paper is "worth" one fifth less than it was today.

Paper itself has no value other than as a representation of our common agreements about worth. (And for printing things on or wiping them with.) The government doesn't have to devalue it, either - we could all wake up tomorrow and agree that the dollar isn't worth a dime, and it would be so.

"Value" is what we agree it is. It's purely notional.

The same is true for gold, by the way. We just like it better because it's shiny and doesn't burn. Still can't eat it, much like paper.

1063 lincolntf  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:06:51pm

re: #1061 drcordell

300 million Americans. Approximately 30-40 million uninsured.

1064 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:06:51pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

((( (((lawhawk))) )))

1065 Digital Display  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:07:03pm

re: #938 Honorary Yooper

I'd rather ask 3 Wood about how currency works. He's a lot smarter than you about Wall Street, and he's a lot nicer than you.


Oh snap! Good one..

1066 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:07:23pm

re: #1061 drcordell

Either you truly have no idea how many people in this country are currently living, or you are being willfully ignorant.

That settles it. The doctor has diagnosed ignorance.

1067 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:07:25pm

re: #1057 Wendya
I would say anger and confrontation is the honest response to a politician (or a media person) who treats questioners with contempt.

The latest is that those who oppose are like the KKK

You know they would drag out the race card on this

1068 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:07:33pm

re: #1043 doppelganglander

I honestly can't remember what I said.

Just a FB conversation we had a while back...starts with Dr and ends in wait...better spell it out...*looks around* C.O.R.D.E.L.L.

/ducks under desk...

1069 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:07:33pm

UNCLE!

1070 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:07:42pm

re: #1062 Cato the Elder

It's simple.

You have not earned any value whatsoever. You have earned X amount of that currency. What the value is (value = what you can get for that currency) is determined by the market (= us), the exchange rates, and what value the government sets on your paper. If for whatever reasons the government (any government) decides to devalue its currency by 20% tomorrow, your paper is "worth" one fifth less than it was today.

Paper itself has no value other than as a representation of our common agreements about worth. (And for printing things on or wiping them with.) The government doesn't have to devalue it, either - we could all wake up tomorrow and agree that the dollar isn't worth a dime, and it would be so.

"Value" is what we agree it is. It's purely notional.

The same is true for gold, by the way. We just like it better because it's shiny and doesn't burn. Still can't eat it, much like paper.

YOU MEAN THE GOVERNMENT OWNS ALL MY MONEY?!?!?!?!?

1071 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:07:54pm

re: #1008 ArmyWife

What I need is lessons on folding fitted sheets properly. Mine end up looking a jumbled mess, which makes the linen closet not neat and tidy looking. Is there a government program for me that includes a sheet folder upper?

ArmyWife?

Turn the sheet so the seams are outside (or the little corners are standing up). Match two corners, turn it over your hand so the outside is showing.

Repeat on the other two corners.

Bring the doubled corners together, match and fold draw over. Now all four corners should be in one, neat stack.

Remove your hand from the pocket, and fold the short side in until you have a straight edge. Then fold in thirds until you achieve an acceptably sized rectangle for your linen closet.

1072 Occasional Reader  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:08:10pm

Condolences to lawhawk and his family. 92 years old... it seems that she lived a very rich life.

1073 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:08:16pm

re: #1059 Seattle Rep

See my re: #315 jcm for what "reform" did to us in WA.

1074 quiet man  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:08:25pm

re: #1066 kansas

re: #1061 drcordell


That settles it. The doctor has diagnosed ignorance.


But health care reform will not cover thatr, and there will be a board to report to as well as home visits from "well qualified" agents...

1075 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:08:45pm

re: #1037 Kenneth

People, please read Kenneth's #1037 ... As Canadians, we know something about the train wreck you are about to board.

1076 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:08:54pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

Sorry to hear that. My prayers are with you and your family.

1077 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:09:13pm

re: #1073 jcm

See my re: #315 jcm for what "reform" did to us in WA.

So because previous efforts to fix the problem have failed, we should simply do nothing? That's the stupidest thing I've heard all day, and I've been tuned into Fox News for the past hour.

1078 Steve  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:09:15pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

Take care and I will remember you and your family in my prayers.

1079 wintercat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:09:15pm

My sincere condolences Lawhawk.

I am out of here for awhile.

1080 lincolntf  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:09:25pm

re: #1070 drcordell

Waiting on your math, Doc. What percentage of Americans are not covered?

1081 Dahveed  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:09:41pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

My condolences lawhawk.

1082 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:09:43pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

My deepest condolences, and please take all care.

1083 FamHistoryGuy  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:09:43pm

re: #790 drcordell

You seem to think that all transactions are in cash. Ever hear of direct deposit or ATM machines. Or electronic transfers? No cash involved. Just bits and bytes.

Your money is worth what it will buy. And the government does not determine that. Private enterprise does that.

1084 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:09:44pm

re: #1010 opnion

Come on Cato, "stoopid" is not agreeing with you & DrCordell?
Sounds a little pompous.
I posted why he is wrong about insurance bureaucrats not being compensated for denying claims & no reply from him.
If you are so in agreement , you must believe that too?

I don't "believe" it, it is a fact.

1085 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:09:53pm

re: #1070 drcordell

YOU MEAN THE GOVERNMENT OWNS ALL MY MONEY?!?!?!?!?

Ok, though that isn't even the right interpretation, I will give you credit for your attempt at humorous snark...but credit, in this case, does not equal an upding.

1086 Digital Display  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:10:07pm

re: #1053 MandyManners

You'll learn how to fold sheets in camp, comrade.

I was thinking of tying them together and escaping out the window of re education camp.. I wish the food wasn't so good here..and the beer is free..Maybe I'll escape next week.

1087 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:10:27pm

re: #1080 lincolntf

Waiting on your math, Doc. What percentage of Americans are not covered?

I don't know? NCHC says roughly 18%?

1088 lobo91  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:10:41pm

re: #1039 BlueCanuck

A Canadian example. The brought in a firearm registry and changed all firearm rules back in the mid 90's. We were told it would cost a few million and be funded by the liscencing payments by firearm owners. Four years later it was revealed that the total cost was over one billion dollars, and there were issues with the data base. Government efficiency in action.

Go back and look up the Congressional debates surrounding the original implementation of Medicare back in the 1960s, and see what the projected future costs were.

You'll note that it's currently costing more than 100 times what their projections were for this time period.

Forgive me if I don't buy into any Congressional estimates as to how much Obamacare is going to cost 10 or 20 years in the future.

1089 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:10:43pm

re: #1062 Cato the Elder

It's simple.

You have not earned any value whatsoever. You have earned X amount of that currency. What the value is (value = what you can get for that currency) is determined by the market (= us), the exchange rates, and what value the government sets on your paper. If for whatever reasons the government (any government) decides to devalue its currency by 20% tomorrow, your paper is "worth" one fifth less than it was today.

Paper itself has no value other than as a representation of our common agreements about worth. (And for printing things on or wiping them with.) The government doesn't have to devalue it, either - we could all wake up tomorrow and agree that the dollar isn't worth a dime, and it would be so.

"Value" is what we agree it is. It's purely notional.

The same is true for gold, by the way. We just like it better because it's shiny and doesn't burn. Still can't eat it, much like paper.

Don't international financial markets determine the value of the dollar relative to other currencies?

1090 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:10:59pm

re: #988 drcordell

Shit's broken, it needs to be fixed.

Don't just cross the street if you must get to the other side... Look both ways first...and then cross only when it is safe.

1091 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:11:07pm

re: #1071 Dianna

I am printing this out and going to try it RIGHT NOW. Thank you!

1092 redstateredneck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:11:09pm

re: #1071 Dianna

Then fold in thirds until you achieve an acceptably sized rectangle for your linen closet.


That's the part that is entirely subjective. I'm good until those last few folds, which can turn into something resembling a wad.

1093 Spider Mensch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:11:14pm

re: #988 drcordell

I appreciate it. I'm not trying to make anyone agree with me, or ram anything down anyone's throat. I just want an honest dialogue that doesn't involve discussions of euthanasia or ridiculous claims that "everything is fine." Shit's broken, it needs to be fixed. And if we can have a rational discussion about what to do it would benefit everyone.

you forgot to add... "and me calling people stupid"

you're welcome.

1094 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:11:44pm

re: #1063 lincolntf

300 million Americans. Approximately 30-40 million uninsured.

Only about 10-12 million, take out the illegals, and those who have health care options available but have not used it, even those who were temporarily uninsured (between jobs) is counted in that inflated number.

1095 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:11:52pm

re: #1003 medaura18586

Wow, random creepy website appeared under my nic on the last post... strange...

Have you ever visited said site?

There have been glitches before where URL's I've posted in links then popped up under my name.

1096 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:11:58pm

re: #1083 FamHistoryGuy

You seem to think that all transactions are in cash. Ever hear of direct deposit or ATM machines. Or electronic transfers? No cash involved. Just bits and bytes.

Your money is worth what it will buy. And the government does not determine that. Private enterprise does that.

Are you really serious? You have to be joking. I'm seriously about to shit myself because I'm laughing so hard.

1097 doppelganglander  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:12:06pm

re: #1068 Oh no...Sand People!

Just a FB conversation we had a while back...starts with Dr and ends in wait...better spell it out...*looks around* C.O.R.D.E.L.L.

/ducks under desk...

Oh, now I remember! That's okay, I think it's perfectly safe around here to say you think the good doctor is ... incorrect.

1098 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:12:40pm
1099 opnion  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:13:01pm

re: #1084 Cato the Elder

I don't "believe" it, it is a fact.

Then you truly do not understand how it works.
You call your opnion a "fact" which is tres arrogant.
That's ok though , if you feel good about it.

1100 tackle  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:13:08pm

re: #1037 Kenneth

Last fall, up here in Canada, my 78 year old mother was bumped down the list for surgery on a tumor on her pancreas. Morning after morning she was scheduled for surgery, given nothing to eat for 12 hours, then bumped down the list again. This went on for 4 fucking weeks before she got her operation!


I'm terribly sorry about your mother.
Being bumped is awful. Something that not many people realize this corruption that will invariably soak the system. Getting bumped is sometimes, but not always, the product of people with connections "cutting in line". People who "know people" will get priority.

1101 Cygnus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:13:11pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

Sympathy to you and your family. I'm sure she had a full and wonderful life.

1102 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:13:29pm

re: #1077 drcordell

So because previous efforts to fix the problem have failed, we should simply do nothing? That's the stupidest thing I've heard all day, and I've been tuned into Fox News for the past hour.

What was done in WA is essentially what's on the table.

Just like Obama's economic plans mirror FDR's from the 30's.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is called ...

INSANITY!

1103 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:13:30pm

re: #1089 Spare O'Lake

Don't international financial markets determine the value of the dollar relative to other currencies?

Not if our government decides to peg the currency to some other paper.

Not that they should or would, but they can and have done so. When I was a kid, a dollar = four German marks. No ifs, ands, or buts. It was also pegged to nearly every other world currency.

It made vacations abroad somewhat less unpredictable, if nothing else.

1104 ArmyWife  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:13:44pm

re: #1092 redstateredneck

Maybe we will sit next to each other at camp.

1105 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:13:51pm

re: #1094 jcm

Only about 10-12 million, take out the illegals, and those who have health care options available but have not used it, even those who were temporarily uninsured (between jobs) is counted in that inflated number.

Yeah, all those people who have the money to pay for health insurance but just choose to be uninsured for the fun of it.

1106 AZDave  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:13:53pm

"Reform" -- isn't that politicalese for "bend over"?

1107 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:14:12pm

re: #1061 drcordell

Either you truly have no idea how many people in this country are currently living, or you are being willfully ignorant.

No sir, it is you who are ignorant. Do the math.
40,000,000/300,000,000=13.33%
45,000,000/300,000,000=15%
50,000,000/300,000,000=16.67%
That means the vast majority of Americans are insured. Take a math class, dolt.

1108 gymnast  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:15:11pm

The "Dr" in not a Dr nor is Cordell an intelligent person. The "Health Care Plan" as presently proposed in not a health care plan in it's present form, it is a means to redistribute income.

If the "government" were serious about health care it would establish a system of about 10 "National Medical Academies" to prepare primary care physicians and other critical health care personnel to staff a series of primary and secondary care clinics for means tested and/or insured patients.

1109 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:15:30pm

re: #1096 drcordell

Are you really serious? You have to be joking. I'm seriously about to shit myself because I'm laughing so hard.

That wouldn't be the first time, I bet.

1110 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:15:34pm

re: #1107 Honorary Yooper

No sir, it is you who are ignorant. Do the math.
40,000,000/300,000,000=13.33%
45,000,000/300,000,000=15%
50,000,000/300,000,000=16.67%
That means the vast majority of Americans are insured. Take a math class, dolt.

Did I say majority? I said MANY. No matter how you do the math, 13%-16% of our country is a LOT OF FUCKING PEOPLE. You arrogant ****.

1111 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:16:09pm

re: #1110 drcordell

Did I say majority? I said MANY. No matter how you do the math, 13%-16% of our country is a LOT OF FUCKING PEOPLE. You arrogant ***.

Don't shit yourself there doc.

1112 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:16:26pm

re: #1105 drcordell

Yeah, all those people who have the money to pay for health insurance but just choose to be uninsured for the fun of it.


9 million are just that.'
6 million don't use available employee coverage.
9.7 million don't use available gov't coverage.

1113 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:16:28pm

re: #1111 kansas

Don't shit yourself there doc.

Go fuck yourself.

1114 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:16:40pm

re: #1084 Cato the Elder

I don't "believe" it, it is a fact.

Oh, dear.

1115 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:16:41pm

Re: Firefly

re: #1025 Kosh's Shadow

GET THE SERIES!

DON'T DO IT! Unless, of course, you absolutely must have a hard-copy.

Otherwise, you can watch the whole series, right here, free of charge. Man, I love the internet!

1116 lincolntf  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:16:49pm

re: #1094 jcm

I know. I was being generous with my numbers just to see if Doc had a clue. He doesn't.

1117 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:17:34pm

re: #1112 jcm

9 million are just that.'
6 million don't use available employee coverage.
9.7 million don't use available gov't coverage.

Do you have a source for that number other than an un-sourced pie chart from a Republican's personal webpage?

1118 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:17:35pm

re: #1091 ArmyWife

I am printing this out and going to try it RIGHT NOW. Thank you!

You are very welcome.

1119 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:17:37pm

re: #1111 kansas

Don't shit yourself there doc.

Too late...

1120 midwestgak  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:18:09pm

re: #999 Jetpilot1101

Sure stuff is broken but please provide for me one program that the government has managed without running a deficit or completely mismanaging it to the point of utter failure?

I can. Jesse White turned the Illinois DMV from time wasting, long lines of confusion into a well run "business." That's how he managed it. Like a private business.

Alas, it's his last term. He's not seeking another term or higher office.

The other Illinois elected officials have decided to increase driver's license renewal to $30. Was $10. Some government officials can do the job, most cannot/will not.

1121 Cygnus  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:18:25pm

Did Doc have Grumpy Flakes for breakfast this morning? Sheesh.

1122 Seattle Rep  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:18:39pm

re: #1077 drcordell

I don't think anyone has said do nothing. There are thousands of mandates in our health plans today put in there by special interest groups and it’s these items that drive the costs of health coverage up. Dump some of those mandates!

1123 Dianna  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:19:27pm

re: #1092 redstateredneck

That's the part that is entirely subjective. I'm good until those last few folds, which can turn into something resembling a wad.

I understand - I used to have that problem, too. The key is achieving that first, straight edged fold.

1124 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:19:42pm

re: #1110 drcordell

Did I say majority? I said MANY. No matter how you do the math, 13%-16% of our country is a LOT OF FUCKING PEOPLE. You arrogant ***.

So nice to know you prefer attacking instead of listening to other people's arguments. I listen to Iceweasel's arguments because she doesn't try to condesend toward anyone who is contradictory. You on the other hand, take the high and heavy handed road of calling anyone who calls you out an "arrogant ***". If only 13-16% are affected, then it should be set up for those 13-16% and no more. It does not mean the system is broken beyond repair, it means it needs a tweak.

1125 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:19:51pm

re: #1037 Kenneth

The argument over the "death panel" is a bit of a red herring. It doesn't matter whether the final bill, and we haven't seen the final bill yet, includes provisions for such a panel or panels. What does matter is this: when the healthcare you can obtain is dictated by a state-run system, limited resources will be rationed. Patient will be triaged. Waiting lists for treatment will grow. Less important patients will be bumped down the list.

Last fall, up here in Canada, my 78 year old mother was bumped down the list for surgery on a tumor on her pancreas. Morning after morning she was scheduled for surgery, given nothing to eat for 12 hours, then bumped down the list again. This went on for 4 fucking weeks before she got her operation! By then the tumor had spread. There wasn't much they could do but give her pain-killers for the last few weeks of her life. Even that they screwed up until we pushed and harangued the doctors to give her something better that would kill the pain without making her sick. She died in February. If she could have gotten prompt diagnosis -that too was delayed by waiting lists- and then prompt treatment, she might still be with us.

Do you want to loose control of your own choices for your healthcare? While simultaneously lowering the quality of that care? And paying more taxes for it?

The argument for universal healthcare is that there are far too many people without coverage and they are suffering. Very true. Something needs to be done to fix that problem. But tell me this: do you believe this is the president and this is the congress that are competent and honest and capable enough to find the best solution to that problem? Are the plans they have proposed so far going to do it? What's your confidence level?

Health care is a service provided in return for payment.
So is it not rationed by the marketplace subject to government regulation?
Surely no one advocates unbridled free market supply and pricing for medical services.
And no one I know is advocating complete government control of the supply and pricing of medical services either.
This debate is a big hyperbowl.

1126 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:19:53pm

re: #1121 Cygnus

Did Doc have Grumpy Flakes for breakfast this morning? Sheesh.

No, I woke up in a coastal blue state and paid my taxes. Which then flowed out of my prosperous state to provide services to ignorant tools like Kansas. Who then proceed to shit all over the Government and everything it does while reaping a net benefit from its existence. That's why im pissed.

1127 redstateredneck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:20:20pm

re: #1104 ArmyWife

Maybe we will sit next to each other at camp.

Now I can fold well with a buddy!

1128 gregb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:20:28pm

re: #466 Charles

Sorry, I don't believe this without some proof. I extremely doubt that the UK government would label anything with a name like that.

Fair enough. It's not the government who calls it that. It's my friend who worked at the NHS in London doing governance compliance. He used the term conversationally several years ago long before I had ever heard of Obama. That's not proof, but just a comment that I don't believe Palin made it up or was the first to use the term.

1129 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:20:46pm

re: #1124 Honorary Yooper

So nice to know you prefer attacking instead of listening to other people's arguments. I listen to Iceweasel's arguments because she doesn't try to condesend toward anyone who is contradictory. You on the other hand, take the high and heavy handed road of calling anyone who calls you out an "arrogant ***". If only 13-16% are affected, then it should be set up for those 13-16% and no more. It does not mean the system is broken beyond repair, it means it needs a tweak.

The first thing out of your mouth was to call me an ignorant dolt, after you put words in my mouth. So yes, you are an arrogant ****.

1130 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:21:20pm

re: #1121 Cygnus

Did Doc have Grumpy Flakes for breakfast this morning? Sheesh.

I'm guessing someone pissed in his Cranky Flakes this morning.

1131 BlueCanuck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:22:20pm

re: #1121 Cygnus

Did Doc have Grumpy Flakes for breakfast this morning? Sheesh.

I think he's on a steady diet of them.

1132 lincolntf  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:22:22pm

re: #1126 drcordell


I'm also in a coastal blue State, and my taxes largely go to feel-good do-nothing liberal programs that crush industry while stealing individual freedoms. But at least I'm not a total dick about it.

1133 redstateredneck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:22:36pm

re: #1111 kansas

Upding for the laugh.

1134 KenJen  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:22:49pm

re: #1126 drcordell

No, I woke up in a coastal blue state and paid my taxes. Which then flowed out of my prosperous state to provide services to ignorant tools like Kansas. Who then proceed to shit all over the Government and everything it does while reaping a net benefit from its existence. That's why im pissed.

Did you pay your taxes with your money or government owned money?

1135 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:23:05pm
Did you pay your taxes with your money or government owned money?

Government owned baby!

1136 Spider Mensch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:23:16pm

re: #1113 drcordell

Go fuck yourself.

hmmm..lot's of people lately get banned for that type of stuff..i guess some lizards are more equal than others...(sigh)

1137 GGMac  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:23:30pm

re: #293 SixDegrees

Try to think of nationalized health care as a really, really big shovel.


What he meant by 'shovel-ready' jobs: grave diggers for the influx of internments of people deemed to be not 'expense-worthy'.

1138 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:23:40pm

A few years back, in another state, my husband and I determined that if we took the "safe driver" classes (we actually read the paperwork they sent to us), we could get a discount on our car insurance. We did the math--we calculated the discount, minus the cost, and then divided by our time to see if it was worth it. We decided it was.

I was probably the only person in my session who wasn't there for a ticket, but I went, and probably learned something.

Health insurance should do this. Go to a class on healthy eating, or something similar, get a discount.

(Note: I would be against a mandatory version of this. Very against.)

1139 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:23:44pm

re: #1136 Spider Mensch

hmmm..lot's of people lately get banned for that type of stuff..i guess some lizards are more equal than others...(sigh)

Just defending myself homie. Nothing personal.

1140 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:23:49pm

re: #1117 drcordell

Do you have a source for that number other than an un-sourced pie chart from a Republican's personal webpage?

Oh, I see you are not familiar with the CBO report.

1141 Annar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:24:34pm

re: #221 MandyManners

Who says it cannot be reversed in the next Congress?

Once those who do not have health care are enrolled in the Plan Of the State (POS) it will be impossible to throw those people, and other unfortunates whose companies abandon their own programs, out into the private market, it would be electoral suicide. Steyn is right, it will be a system in continuous revision but, impossible to eliminate barring a revolution or a world war. In Canada certain private options are creeping back in for 'elective' and 'non urgent' care but no one even dreams possible to eliminate the one-payer system in place.

1142 Drider  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:25:12pm

After hearing Obama today, how can anyone take him seriously.

It is almost hard to watch him in this "101%bullshit" mode, where he feels he can simply say whatever he wants and we just lap it up.

Someone needs to tell him the luster is gone and that he needs to get serious because it's embarrassing to watch.

1143 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:25:19pm

re: #1136 Spider Mensch

hmmm..lot's of people lately get banned for that type of stuff..i guess some lizards are more equal than others...(sigh)

Charles would have to start with Mandy.

But I agree, DrC. should take a break. You can't beat sense into fools.

1144 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:26:11pm

re: #1139 drcordell

Just defending myself homie. Nothing personal.

"Go fuck yourself" is "Nothing Personal" ???

GAZE

1145 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:26:48pm

So I see the NH "town hall" was essentially another Obama info-merical.

The false choice:

"For all the scare tactics out there, what is truly scary is if we do nothing,"

Go blind faith for the sell:

"Spread the facts. Let's get this done,"


Bad faith.

1146 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:26:55pm

re: #1143 Cato the Elder

Charles would have to start with Mandy.

But I agree, DrC. should take a break. You can't beat sense into fools.

Considering that it is DrC who is the fool, yes, he needs to take a break and learn something. If I were he, I'd start with a class on civility.

1147 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:27:13pm

re: #1075 Buck

Thank you, Buck.

1148 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:27:22pm

re: #1143 Cato the Elder

Charles would have to start with Mandy.

But I agree, DrC. should take a break. You can't beat sense into fools.

Yeah I'm signing off. I think I started to lose it after this comment right here...

You seem to think that all transactions are in cash. Ever hear of direct deposit or ATM machines. Or electronic transfers? No cash involved. Just bits and bytes.

Your money is worth what it will buy. And the government does not determine that. Private enterprise does that.

Teh stoopid! It hurts!

1149 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:27:38pm

re: #1146 Honorary Yooper

Considering that it is DrC who is the fool, yes, he needs to take a break and learn something. If I were he, I'd start with a class on civility.

Sign Miss Manners up, and I'll pay for both.

1150 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:28:10pm

re: #1136 Spider Mensch

hmmm..lot's of people lately get banned for that type of stuff..i guess some lizards are more equal than others...(sigh)

Look.

I am not going to jump in and adjudicate every little spat, but when I do, that's it. You don't get a say in it. If you want to run a site differently, start your own blog.

And if you continue making little whiny comments about some people being "more equal" than others, I guarantee you won't have your account much longer.

1151 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:28:13pm

re: #1146 Honorary Yooper

Considering that it is DrC who is the fool, yes, he needs to take a break and learn something. If I were he, I'd start with a class on civility.

I may not be the most civil, but I'm not an idiot.

1152 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:28:18pm

GAZE

She could use a good dermatologist.

Just saying.

1153 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:28:45pm

re: #1113 drcordell

Go fuck yourself.

Nice. That IQ must be pretty high.

1154 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:29:36pm

re: #1136 Spider Mensch

hmmm..lot's of people lately get banned for that type of stuff..i guess some lizards are more equal than others...(sigh)

Would you like a glass of whine with that comment?

1155 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:29:46pm

re: #832 reine.de.tout

I'm not getting drcordell either.
The government prints the money and so it owns the currency.

but if I've performed work and I have earned the value of that currency, it just seems to me that value is mine to spend, not the government's. Except drcordell doesn't think so.


He sems to be confused by the two concepts. Currency and wealth...

1156 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:30:11pm

re: #1132 lincolntf

I'm also in a coastal blue State, and my taxes largely go to feel-good do-nothing liberal programs that crush industry while stealing individual freedoms. But at least I'm not a total dick about it.

I am also in a coastal blue state, one that destroyed itself with feel good welfare assistance programs, evironmental nonsene, and an anti-business attitude. I can be half a dick about it.

1157 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:31:46pm

re: #1113 drcordell

Go fuck yourself.

Temper, temper. You're starting to exhibit some very Hillaryesque traits.

1158 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:31:47pm

re: #988 drcordell

I have no idea what kind of doctor you might be. I have kept away from your arguments as well.

If you are in medicine, and you think the solution is more government involvement over and above what they already have their hands on, you are delusional.

I am still somewhat young, but I am approaching my second decade in medicine. My first taste was watching how the dependents of the active duty military we were not allowed to treat were shoved off on Champus and Tricare.

We refuse to contract with any Medicaid product, a litany of reasons which should speak for itself, given the fact this legislation is supposedly going to target the admitted problems by those who "created the problems" in the first place.

Interesting enough, just today I was reminded of how much I cherish the idea of a larger and better Medicare type of system when it just so happens that one of their members could really benefit from some IV antibiotics.

The problem is, they don't cover infusion services. Out option was to admit them to the hospital for 3 days, and then discharge them with planning to go on ABX then.

It will be a disaster.

1159 keithgabryelski  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:31:53pm

If Charles throws up another thread associated with President Obama's town halls, I'd love to see a collection of questions minus all the ridiculousness.

Post #4 and #8 seems right on.
Post #6 and #25 seems ridiculous
Post #7 seems paranoid, mostly out of context, but still fair game.

Skip all the snark and crap and get to the real concerns.

1) Exactly what is wrong with the way things currently are
2) What is the closest currently working system that is like the one you are proposing that we can examine for its cost/benefits
3) How are you going to ensure this is deficit neutral.
4) What negative side effects have you/your advisers calculated may occur because of these new laws/programs put into place.
5) What feedback loops are in place to ensure changes are made if these programs are not deficit neutral or serious unknown side effects are seen.

1160 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:32:40pm

re: #1155 debutaunt

He sems to be confused by the two concepts. Currency and wealth...

Huh? They are exactly the same thing if your "wealth" is made up of currency.

1161 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:32:49pm

re: #1125 Spare O'Lake

You can talk all you want about hypothetical ideals, but I'm talking about my very real experience with the state-run medical system as it exists. If we had an option for private medical care, and in Canada we do not, we could have paid for and received better more prompt medical care for my mother. Millions of other Canadians face the same situation every year.

The question before the US electorate today is whether the changes proposed by Obama, and those in the bills being drawn up by congress, will improve the system or make it worse.

1162 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:34:01pm

re: #1161 Kenneth

You can talk all you want about hypothetical ideals, but I'm talking about my very real experience with the state-run medical system as it exists. If we had an option for private medical care, and in Canada we do not, we could have paid for and received better more prompt medical care for my mother. Millions of other Canadians face the same situation every year.

The question before the US electorate today is whether the changes proposed by Obama, and those in the bills being drawn up by congress, will improve the system or make it worse.

Yes. Upding.

1163 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:34:51pm

re: #1103 Cato the Elder

Not if our government decides to peg the currency to some other paper.

Not that they should or would, but they can and have done so. When I was a kid, a dollar = four German marks. No ifs, ands, or buts. It was also pegged to nearly every other world currency.

It made vacations abroad somewhat less unpredictable, if nothing else.

Ah, don't tempt me with my favorite subject, but to be correct, it was the German government that was pegging the deutschmark to the dollar -- Bretton Woods System. Nearly the whole world was pegging its currencies to the dollar, which allowed the U.S. to export inflation and cheat off of the "gold standard." What a joke!

1164 FrogMarch  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:36:13pm

re: #1161 Kenneth

You can talk all you want about hypothetical ideals, but I'm talking about my very real experience with the state-run medical system as it exists. If we had an option for private medical care, and in Canada we do not, we could have paid for and received better more prompt medical care for my mother. Millions of other Canadians face the same situation every year.

The question before the US electorate today is whether the changes proposed by Obama, and those in the bills being drawn up by congress, will improve the system or make it worse.

A majority of Americans say 'The government WILL MAKE IT WORSE.'
No matter - Obama tells us--

"For all the scare tactics out there, what is truly scary is if we do nothing,"

Who is fear-mongering?

1165 Locker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:36:17pm

re: #904 midwestgak

1) All companies are in the business of making a profit. Do you own a company that make no profit?/ Do you work for nothing?

2) Yes, you do have to prove that insures seek to deny claims. Policies are written based upon the makeup of the group. Insurance companies offer many different plans like 100/80/50 or 80/80/50 for example. If you don't know what that means, you have no credibilty of how insurance policies work.

3) Please explain your understanding of insurance company models, since you claim "it's their entire business."

Each person's definition of proof is different but perhaps this will provide some measure of insight on claim denial efforts of at least one insurer (CIGNA):

Wendell Potter on Profits Before Patients

In his first extended television interview since leaving the health insurance industry, Wendell Potter tells Bill Moyers why he left his successful career as the head of Public Relations for CIGNA, one of the nation's largest insurers, and decided to speak out against the industry.

I found this episode to be interesting and informative.

1166 Coracle  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:37:12pm

re: #1159 keithgabryelski


Skip all the snark and crap and get to the real concerns.

... excellent list

Thank you.

1167 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:37:24pm

re: #1164 FrogMarch

Who is fear-mongering?

Telling an unpleasant truth isn't fear-mongering. Healthcare is going to bankrupt this country and make our businesses uncompetitive without reform.

1168 keithgabryelski  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:38:17pm

re: #1159 keithgabryelski

If Charles throws up another thread associated with President Obama's town halls, I'd love to see a collection of questions minus all the ridiculousness.

Post #4 and #8 seems right on.
Post #6 and #25 seems ridiculous
Post #7 seems paranoid, mostly out of context, but still fair game.

Skip all the snark and crap and get to the real concerns.

1) Exactly what is wrong with the way things currently are
2) What is the closest currently working system that is like the one you are proposing that we can examine for its cost/benefits
3) How are you going to ensure this is deficit neutral.
4) What negative side effects have you/your advisers calculated may occur because of these new laws/programs put into place.
5) What feedback loops are in place to ensure changes are made if these programs are not deficit neutral or serious unknown side effects are seen.

Another question:

6) Before passing the bill, will you create a line item by line item assessment of what each problem a line item solves and what concerns it brings. Will you review these assessments yearly after the law passes?

1169 GGMac  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:39:57pm

re: #737 karmic_inquisitor

I was listening to that townhall live about a couple of hours ago. Didn't hear the whole thing. But the questions I heard civil, though many expressed opposition as they offered the questions. Mosty started with "Welcome to Lebanon P.A. Senator".

Point is, as I was listening i was thinking "Well this won't townhall won't be making any headlines." It got boring so I went back to music.

Perhaps CNN cherry picked the whackos and are broadcasting it. i wonder if the entire townhall is available somewhere so that people can get the whole context of the meeting. Because what I heard may have been the exception and maybe CNN has the context right. But the opposite may be true to.


The town hall was over an hour; FOX showed it from that point of which Charles spoke. That man was irate over being denied being allowed to ask a question, as he had been previously assured by Spector's office that he could ask a question. He blew off some steam; Spector invited him to ask his question - he did, and then left, unescorted. It was the only 'incident' in the entire program. The man was pissed, Spector diffused the situation: no harm, no foul, though of course CNN will use it to discredit any and all conservatives, because that is their goal in broadcast life.

1170 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:40:05pm

re: #1161 Kenneth

To truly put this in perspective, you are allowed to purchase your own tobacco, alcohol, and trans-fats. It is somehow unacceptable to purchase your own health care.

1171 gregb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:40:30pm

re: #756 jcm

Serenity makes a whole lot more sense after watching the series...
Firefly is on hulu.com


I just got Terry Pratchett's Colour of Magic on Blu-Ray. Not quite in the same vein, but I highly recommend it...

Greg

1172 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:40:53pm

re: #1095 JammieWearingFool

Have you ever visited said site?

There have been glitches before where URL's I've posted in links then popped up under my name.

Hmmm, actually I think I visited it, but I never entered it under my nic, so it must be a glitch.

1173 kansas  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:41:00pm

Generally I think the people are at a disadvantage here. Can the common folk read and understand 1100 pages of legalese first, and second according to my representative, Dennis Moore, a Democrat, isn't even finalized. Maybe the folks are exercised, rude, obnoxious, out of line, but I don't think all of them are plants. I think most are folks who have observed these bills and laws they are going to have to live by written, not read, and rushed through or crammed through, or however you want to say it, and are angry about it.

They don't like that cash for clunkers ran out of money in a few days when it wasn't supposed to, they don't like the cap and tax bill that was voted on and not read, they don't like the TARP, and government takeover of the auto industry and banks, and they don't like the fact that military deaths are increasing yet being ignored. At least I don't.

And repeating talking points is not helping when someone with the bill, is reading from it, and is being told that what they are reading is a vicious lie.

1174 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:41:41pm

re: #1160 drcordell

Huh? They are exactly the same thing if your "wealth" is made up of currency.

It's clear by now, the inflated wealth of your self-proclaimed intellect is denominated in a debased currency.

The exchange rates must be killing you.

1175 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:42:25pm

re: #1162 drcordell

Yes. Upding.

Please take it back. I'd rather not have an upding from you.

1176 jcm  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:43:02pm

re: #1160 drcordell

Huh? They are exactly the same thing if your "wealth" is made up of currency.

No it's not, it's expressed in terms of currency.

It's not made of currency.

Wealth is productivity, what is produced has value and it can be exchanged for other things. You don't need currency. At a basic level it is called barter. How long do you work for a loaf of bread? For a movie, for a car, for a house, to pay your taxes.

Currency makes productivity more fungible. I don't go mop floors at the baker for a minute in exchange for a loaf of bread, I give the baker a couple of dollars instead. How many dollars is determined by the exchanged rate. But what I produced for those dollars is the fundamental unit of wealth.

1177 gregb  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:43:31pm

re: #1136 Spider Mensch

Ramirez' take on the uninsured numbers (math).

Image: toon072409.gif

1178 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:43:55pm

re: #1163 medaura18586

Ah, don't tempt me with my favorite subject, but to be correct, it was the German government that was pegging the deutschmark to the dollar -- Bretton Woods System. Nearly the whole world was pegging its currencies to the dollar, which allowed the U.S. to export inflation and cheat off of the "gold standard." What a joke!

I stand corrected. Did the US ever do the pegging?

1179 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:44:46pm

re: #1167 drcordell

Telling an unpleasant truth isn't fear-mongering. Healthcare is going to bankrupt this country and make our businesses uncompetitive without reform.

Laying more taxes on business and individuals to cover a government plan that is not pegged to the same standards as private industry won't bankrupt the country?

Answer me this, what about this plan from the government guarantees that it won't turn into another boondoggle like the Veteran's Administration, Medicare, Medicad, and Social Security?

1180 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:45:39pm

re: #1161 Kenneth

You can talk all you want about hypothetical ideals, but I'm talking about my very real experience with the state-run medical system as it exists. If we had an option for private medical care, and in Canada we do not, we could have paid for and received better more prompt medical care for my mother. Millions of other Canadians face the same situation every year.

The question before the US electorate today is whether the changes proposed by Obama, and those in the bills being drawn up by congress, will improve the system or make it worse.

I do not question your own mother's awful experience. I too have been sadly disappointed by the system on more than one occasion.
But such examples do not invalidate the entire system, any more than an individual good experience validates the entire system.

And your reduction of my modest plea for some moderation and perspective is a bit unfair. "Hypothetical Ideals" - aren't those the things that either get lifted up or trampled by our real life experiences?

1181 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:47:27pm

re: #1179 acwgusa

Laying more taxes on business and individuals to cover a government plan that is not pegged to the same standards as private industry won't bankrupt the country?

Answer me this, what about this plan from the government guarantees that it won't turn into another boondoggle like the Veteran's Administration, Medicare, Medicad, and Social Security?

Well, the GOP coming to the table constructively instead of screaming "death panel" at the top of their lungs would help. Aside from that, there really isn't any guarantee. What about the private plan boondoggle right now reassures you that it won't continue unabated?

1182 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:48:27pm

re: #1178 Cato the Elder

I stand corrected. Did the US ever do the pegging?

We were pegged to gold, they pegged to us. Which worked until the value of gold hit a certain point.

1183 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:51:21pm

re: #1176 jcm

No it's not, it's expressed in terms of currency.

It's not made of currency.

Wealth is productivity, what is produced has value and it can be exchanged for other things. You don't need currency. At a basic level it is called barter. How long do you work for a loaf of bread? For a movie, for a car, for a house, to pay your taxes.

Currency makes productivity more fungible. I don't go mop floors at the baker for a minute in exchange for a loaf of bread, I give the baker a couple of dollars instead. How many dollars is determined by the exchanged rate. But what I produced for those dollars is the fundamental unit of wealth.

Yes, you are correct. I misspoke. But at the end of the day the vast majority of wealth is denominated in currency. And our currency's value is based on faith in the U.S. government, and can be manipulated by the Fed.

1184 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:51:39pm

re: #1178 Cato the Elder

I stand corrected. Did the US ever do the pegging?

Never. Being a superpower means you never have to say you're sorry or peg your currency to anyone else's. Not that the U.S. was always a superpower, but before WW2, such globalist-minded initiatives as international currency cooperation were not contemplated in mainstream politics, plus most countries operated under some sort of hard money, which made pegging unnecessary if not impossible. Well, we supposedly pegged our currency to gold (or bimetallic standards) multiple times, but we always cheated, i.e. printed more paper money than we had metallic reserves to back it up with.

But there have been many monetary experiments in the U.S., Abe Lincoln's "greenbacks" being among the most overlooked. As much as it pains me, I must recommend Rothbard's "History of Money and Banking in the U.S." on this topic. The crazy bastard did a lot of interesting research.

1185 drcordell  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:52:14pm

re: #1174 Kenneth

It's clear by now, the inflated wealth of your self-proclaimed intellect is denominated in a debased currency.

The exchange rates must be killing you.

I still think you're a dick, but at least you seem to be an honest broker when it comes to discussing healthcare.

1186 acwgusa  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:53:15pm

re: #1181 drcordell

Well, the GOP coming to the table constructively instead of screaming "death panel" at the top of their lungs would help. Aside from that, there really isn't any guarantee. What about the private plan boondoggle right now reassures you that it won't continue unabated?

The private boondoggle will continue unabated. Nothing is going to fix health care unless serious tort, malpractice reform is added. A government option will add to, not reduce the boondoggle.

1187 EaterOfFood  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:53:42pm

How many trees were cut down for these megalithic bills?

1188 Wendya  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:55:03pm

re: #1179 acwgusa

Answer me this, what about this plan from the government guarantees that it won't turn into another boondoggle like the Veteran's Administration, Medicare, Medicad, and Social Security?


You mean, Obama's word isn't good enough?

1189 zzzzzzzzzz.....  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:56:35pm

His performance was awfull, he had no answers to questions he thinks this will be like the campaign where no questions were asked.

1190 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:57:17pm

re: #1180 Spare O'Lake

You are correct, individual anecdotes do not validate or invalidate a policy. But I wasn't be unfair to you. I was directing the issue to what I think it's really about. What Obama is talking about, what congress is saying is in their bill and what the critics are hyperventilating about are all miles away from what the real effect of the the whatever the real changes will be. So yes, some moderation and perspective is welcome. By everybody.

1191 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 12:58:42pm

re: #1185 drcordell

I still think you're a dick, but at least you seem to be an honest broker when it comes to discussing healthcare.

Gosh, that's mighty sporting of you.

1192 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:00:00pm

re: #625 lawhawk

Nonsense. The "substantive" health care is going to be paid for how exactly?

And this is the crux. Who is paying for the health care reform, where is the money coming from, and how can anyone trust the government's spending projections on same, when they can't even manage relatively simple programs.

Which means that the end result is going to be higher taxes. The question is then where they draw the line. By raising the taxes on everyone else who already has existing health care coverage, and reducing coverage of same? By forcing people who choose not to carry insurance to take insurance or face penalties?

Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are around because of bureaucratic inertia as much as anything else - they are entrenched because no one wants to change benefits as they help them, ignoring that they are unsustainable and unaffordable. Watch how the AARP comes out swinging against anyone who questions the need to raise the retirement age for SSI or indexing age to life expectancy so as to take into account that millions of people are living longer and there are fewer people paying into the system.

Bush brought about Medicaid Part D and I dont see anyone cheering for that mess, because it's costing far more than they figure it would. And that's just a few years ago. Get existing costs under control before demanding everyone else change.

Get the Indian Health Service figured out.
Get the Veterans Administration figured out. When you get those systems figured, we might trust Obama, but his explicit calls to make this a rush job shows that this has little to do with health care and costs and everything to do with control and power.

I wish I could give that comment my account's lifetieme worth of updings.

1193 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:05:32pm

re: #1176 jcm

No it's not, it's expressed in terms of currency.

It's not made of currency.

Wealth is productivity, what is produced has value and it can be exchanged for other things. You don't need currency. At a basic level it is called barter. How long do you work for a loaf of bread? For a movie, for a car, for a house, to pay your taxes.

Currency makes productivity more fungible. I don't go mop floors at the baker for a minute in exchange for a loaf of bread, I give the baker a couple of dollars instead. How many dollars is determined by the exchanged rate. But what I produced for those dollars is the fundamental unit of wealth.

two hours of pushin' broom
Buys an eight by twelve four-bit room
I'm a man of means by no means
King of the road.

1194 Ben Hur  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:08:15pm

HEY MOM! CAN WE GET SOME MEATLOAF???

1195 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:08:29pm

re: #1180 Spare O'Lake

I do not question your own mother's awful experience. I too have been sadly disappointed by the system on more than one occasion.
But such examples do not invalidate the entire system, any more than an individual good experience validates the entire system.

And your reduction of my modest plea for some moderation and perspective is a bit unfair. "Hypothetical Ideals" - aren't those the things that either get lifted up or trampled by our real life experiences?

I am sorry. I think you missed the Trees looking at only a forest.

The problem is NOT that people were getting surgery, and it was not costing anyone anything. The problem was that it was rationed. The idea that you can't get the surgery YOU NEED, when you NEED it... Well Free doesn't seem so Free.

Every adult Canadian has a story to tell. The only people who think the Canadian system is great are either healthy, young or has money.

1196 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:09:22pm

re: #1185 drcordell

I still think you're a dick, but at least you seem to be an honest broker when it comes to discussing healthcare.

Nothing personal right?

1197 Locker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:10:37pm

re: #1195 Buck


Every adult Canadian has a story to tell. The only people who think the Canadian system is great are either healthy, young or has money.

How many Canadians do you represent? Or you are a pollster maybe?

1198 Annar  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:10:50pm

re: #700 ArmyWife

Poor Arlen. Hated by the right, hated by the left, hated by the kooks. His political mojo seems to have run out. I wish him the best.

It is impossible to feel sorry for that hypocrite even when attacked by a brigade of imbeciles. The u;timate reward will come if a strong Demcrat takes him on in the primary.

1199 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:13:15pm

re: #1197 Locker

How many Canadians do you represent? Or you are a pollster maybe?

You doubt that Canadians have opinions?

Not sure what your point is?

1200 Locker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:14:02pm

re: #1199 Buck

You doubt that Canadians have opinions?

Not sure what your point is?

Well you seem to be speaking for every single Canadian, or at least claiming you know their opinion. Just trying to figure out why.

1201 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:15:35pm

re: #1200 Locker

Well you seem to be speaking for every single Canadian, or at least claiming you know their opinion. Just trying to figure out why.

I did no such thing.

I will say that I hope you have enough insurance to get that huge chip removed from your shoulder.

1202 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:18:08pm

re: #1195 Buck

I am sorry. I think you missed the Trees looking at only a forest.

The problem is NOT that people were getting surgery, and it was not costing anyone anything. The problem was that it was rationed. The idea that you can't get the surgery YOU NEED, when you NEED it... Well Free doesn't seem so Free.

Every adult Canadian has a story to tell. The only people who think the Canadian system is great are either healthy, young or has money.

GRRREEEAAAT!!!

1203 Mr Chompers  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:18:55pm

Who is Barry to tell me I need his health care bill when he needs to quit smoking first. His cigarette smoke adds to his carbon footprint too.

1204 Locker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:19:35pm

re: #1195 Buck

I did no such thing.

This is you right? The quote below?


Every adult Canadian has a story to tell. The only people who think the Canadian system is great are either healthy, young or has money.

Sure seems like that's what you are saying. That all Canadians have a horror story to tell about there health care. That the only people who think the Canadian system is great are either healthy, young or have money?

How could you know all of these things if you weren't a pollster or officially speaking for someone? Not saying there isn't a way you could know, I'm just asking.

Oh and btw, if you don't have a valid source of information I'd say claiming to speak for an entire country when you only speak for yourself would be the epitome of having a chip on your shoulder. Since you started with the insults.

1205 nic g  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:20:05pm

Here's 3:

1. The government has been "reforming" health-care for sixty years—tax breaks for employer-provided health-insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, encouraging HMOs and managed care, and government health-insurance at the state level in Massachusetts, Maine, Oregon. Government health-care has expanded until it is now more than 50% of all health-care spending. Yet after sixty years of government "reform," the problems with health-care are just getting worse. So why should we believe that even more government is the solution?

2. President Obama keeps telling us that he's not trying to get rid of private health insurance. But the bill being debated in Congress would require all new insurance policies to be offered through a government-run exchange, in which the rates that can be charged and the coverage that has to be provided will be dictated by the government's so-called "Health Choices Commissioner." Employer-provided health-insurance will fall under the same regulations in five years. How is this insurance going to be "private" if the government controls everything about it?

3. A video on YouTube shows Barack Obama back in 2003—only six years ago—saying that he is in favor of a "single payer" system. The "single payer" is government, so this means he was in favor of socialized medicine. And just a few weeks ago, Barney Frank—one of the Democratic leaders in the House—said that he considers the current bill a step toward "single payer." So when Obama and the Democrats tell us this bill won't lead to a government takeover of health-care, why should we believe them?

And here's another 17: [Link: www.intellectualactivist.com...]

1206 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:21:07pm

re: #1160 drcordell

Huh? They are exactly the same thing if your "wealth" is made up of currency.

Wealth is created. Currency is printed.

1207 FamHistoryGuy  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:27:07pm

re: #1096 drcordell

Keep plenty of TP on hand. Don't get a hernia from laughing too hard, your insurance might not cover it.

1208 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:27:19pm

re: #1204 Locker

Sure seems like that's what you are saying. That all Canadians have a horror story to tell about there health care. That the only people who think the Canadian system is great are either healthy, young or have money?

Why would you add the word "horror" to my sentence?

Seriously?

In fact I am saying that some Canadian's DO NOT have bad things to say about the healthcare system here. I then give my opinion about who they are.

FURTHER it is my opinion that the people in the USA should ask, and listen to Canadians. Our countries are more similar than different.

I could tell you about my aunt dying last week from kidney failure. (five years of 4 times a day dialysis). A younger person would have been able to get a transplant. At least would have been placed on a list for one. At 80 years old, it was not an option for her in Canada.

1209 debutaunt  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:27:22pm

re: #1183 drcordell

Yes, you are correct. I misspoke. But at the end of the day the vast majority of wealth is denominated in currency. And our currency's value is based on faith in the U.S. government, and can be manipulated by the Fed.

Wealth is not created by the government. That is the point being made over and over.

1210 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:35:57pm

re: #1184 medaura18586

Never. Being a superpower means you never have to say you're sorry or peg your currency to anyone else's. Not that the U.S. was always a superpower, but before WW2, such globalist-minded initiatives as international currency cooperation were not contemplated in mainstream politics, plus most countries operated under some sort of hard money, which made pegging unnecessary if not impossible. Well, we supposedly pegged our currency to gold (or bimetallic standards) multiple times, but we always cheated, i.e. printed more paper money than we had metallic reserves to back it up with.

But there have been many monetary experiments in the U.S., Abe Lincoln's "greenbacks" being among the most overlooked. As much as it pains me, I must recommend Rothbard's "History of Money and Banking in the U.S." on this topic. The crazy bastard did a lot of interesting research.

Crazy bastards often do...

Favorited for future reference!

1211 katemaclaren  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:36:05pm

re: #1198 Annar

He's going to lose in the election to a Republican. Just watch. That will be good since he's never BEEN a Republican.

1212 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:36:14pm

You know, what I don't get is the consistent overlap between those who believe that "we as a society" have decided that poor people cannot "die off in the streets" and hence that health care is some sort of positive human right on the one hand, and those who believe in a public option, or some sort of collectivized health care, or who are otherwise sympathetic to Obama's initiative on this issue on the other hand.

I am an atheist, but I agree with Charles that one doesn't have to be one in order to accept evolution.

I am also one of those selfish bastards who doesn't think people "dying in the streets," "the poor," "the homeless," or any such sob story is any of my business, unless I happen to be inclined to ameliorate their condition by means of voluntary charitable donations. The only reason I pay (and will continue to) those portions of my taxes that go toward distributive ends is because if I don't, I'll go to jail, and not because I believe I have a moral obligation to the "underprivileged."

There, I said it. I don't buy into John Rawls's theory of justice. Compulsion alone is what compels compliance in me with certain schemes of society. Call me cold-hearted, callous, I don't care. That being said, even if I did buy into this beautiful altruistic concoction certain people's hearts are bleeding over, the way to go about successfully and efficiently ensuring that no one go without health care or "die off in the streets" is not through the socialized/collectivist utopias Obama and Congress are trying to push down our throats.

Deregulate the insurance industry, abolish interstate barriers, as well as state-specific restrictions/conditions to coverage, shield a certain lump-sum portion of income (depending on family size) from taxation, for citizens to use as a health-care savings account. Get employers out of the way, and initiate comprehensive tort reform. Sure, some people will still not afford health insurance. To those, issue debit cards that can be used toward health coverage -- the health-care equivalent of food stamps.

You don't want people starving off in the streets, now do you? But does that mean food must be cooked by the administration on a daily basis and administered in government soup kitchens for everyone? Doesn't it just make more sense to directly give those who can't afford food the means to buy it? Think about it!

It is true that people who believe in a deity don't have to necessarily succumb to creationist nonsense, but they are inherently drawn to it on average. The same principles, mental processes, and emotional needs that orient the human psyche toward belief in a personal God, also predispose it toward other dogmas in the same domain. Likewise, the same moral memes that got people convinced that "we as a society" must decide this and that, and take care of the poor, provide welfare, health care, and free education to those unwilling to work hard enough to provide for themselves and to their children, also are drawn to collective, Utopian, inefficient solutions to practical problems.

But whatever... I'm grateful to live in a land of such opportunity and vast, under-appreciated wealth, that most folks in the streets can afford to entertain such lofty altruistic pretensions. Most people here don't know what real poverty is, what it looks like, and how people deal with it. Even "the poor" are fat in America. But reality is one thing, and our societal norms are another.

To the extent that economics is a normative discipline and to the extent that the health-care debate is economic in nature, no matter what your morality is, there is a single objective optimal approach to health care, and it's along the lines I have mentioned, not along Obama's proposal. I am not speaking from subjective whim. For anyone interested in the facts, figures, statistics, economic theory, and case studies, it should be as clear as evolution vs. creationism. The data is out there.

1213 Locker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:37:14pm

re: #1208 Buck

Why would you add the word "horror" to my sentence?

I didn't add it to your sentence I added it to my paraphrase which I inferred from the sentence preceding that line as follows:

re: #1195 Buck

I am sorry. I think you missed the Trees looking at only a forest.

The problem is NOT that people were getting surgery, and it was not costing anyone anything. The problem was that it was rationed. The idea that you can't get the surgery YOU NEED, when you NEED it... Well Free doesn't seem so Free.

Every adult Canadian has a story to tell. The only people who think the Canadian system is great are either healthy, young or has money.

If my inference is mistaken that's fine but in the very next sentence you go on about "the only people" as if you know what every other person thinks. I'd be happy to listen to you or any other Canadian or person but it makes it much harder when you try to add weight to your argument with "everyone thinks this or that".

All of your personal insight and experiences, on the other hand, are the very best types of information to share in my opinion. Your stories and information about your family and friends are enlightening.

1214 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:39:06pm

re: #1062 Cato the Elder

It's simple.

You have not earned any value whatsoever. You have earned X amount of that currency. What the value is (value = what you can get for that currency) is determined by the market (= us), the exchange rates, and what value the government sets on your paper. If for whatever reasons the government (any government) decides to devalue its currency by 20% tomorrow, your paper is "worth" one fifth less than it was today.

Paper itself has no value other than as a representation of our common agreements about worth. (And for printing things on or wiping them with.) The government doesn't have to devalue it, either - we could all wake up tomorrow and agree that the dollar isn't worth a dime, and it would be so.

"Value" is what we agree it is. It's purely notional.

The same is true for gold, by the way. We just like it better because it's shiny and doesn't burn. Still can't eat it, much like paper.

drcordell seems to have said that the government owns the currency. So even if I earn X amount, the currency is owned by the government, from what I understand drcordell to be saying. It's all too confusing for me; I think I shall just trade all the government-owned currency that I have in my pocket for something I want right now at the value somebody has placed on it, and figure out who owns what later.

1215 katemaclaren  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:39:25pm

Well, well, well. The news coverage is over for Obama in NH. Many people think it was most definitely audience-screened--by the Secret Service.

1216 katemaclaren  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:40:37pm

re: #1212 medaura18586

Kudos.

1217 Locker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:41:19pm

re: #1215 katemaclaren

Well, well, well. The news coverage is over for Obama in NH. Many people think it was most definitely audience-screened--by the Secret Service.

I would think no one is allowed to get anywhere near the President without some sort of screening. Just an assumption but the protection detail seems to take their duty fairly seriously, at least in the movies.

1218 katemaclaren  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:41:48pm

Kudos for the courage to say what many of us think and won't let the words pass our keyboards.

1219 katemaclaren  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:42:30pm

re: #1217 Locker

Yep. Right you are. (especially not ANGRY people!!!)

1220 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:51:47pm

re: #1218 katemaclaren

I may drop that bomb on other threads too. I'm always too late to the party.

1221 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 1:53:15pm

re: #1213 Locker

If my inference is mistaken that's fine but in the very next sentence you go on about "the only people" as if you know what every other person thinks. I'd be happy to listen to you or any other Canadian or person but it makes it much harder when you try to add weight to your argument with "everyone thinks this or that".

All of your personal insight and experiences, on the other hand, are the very best types of information to share in my opinion. Your stories and information about your family and friends are enlightening.

Your inference IS mistaken.

In many places. First of all I start a new paragraph. With a very safe sentence that "Every adult Canadian has a story to tell". I don't think any one has to be able to prove that in order to say it. In the next sentence I say that some Canadians will think the system is GREAT. I then give my opinion on who they might be.

You draw conclusions that have no support. Horrors? I never said horrors.

Canadian have to live with the system we have. It is certainly harder to "un grind" the meat once you have made hamburger. BUT, it is a fact that every year Canadians who can afford it, travel to the USA for health care. (My father did so for a simple hernia operation.) It is a simple fact that people all over the world travel to the USA to get health care they want when they want it.

I have this many times. Cross that street if you have to, BUT look both ways, and only cross when it is safe to so. It is good advice.

1222 Buck  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:04:42pm

re: #1213 Locker

I'd be happy to listen to you or any other Canadian or person but it makes it much harder when you try to add weight to your argument with "everyone thinks this or that".

AND you know what else... I never said "everyone thinks" one way or the other. That would be foolish.

Here is a tip you might want to think about. If you read something you think is wrong... read it twice to make sure it REALLY says what you think it says.

Twice in one post you inferred too much. It is my opinion, based on those inferences, that you aren't very good at it.

1223 Locker  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:06:04pm

re: #1221 Buck

Your next sentence was:

The only people who think the Canadian system is great are either healthy, young or has money.

This sentence makes a direct claim that any Canadian who is less than healthy, not young and without money doesn't think the Canadian system is great.

On the flip side I am completely willing to accept that this is your opinion and not your statement of fact.

1224 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:10:32pm
re: #1212 medaura18586

I am also one of those selfish bastards who doesn't think people "dying in the streets," "the poor," "the homeless," or any such sob story is any of my business, unless I happen to be inclined to ameliorate their condition by means of voluntary charitable donations.

One does not have to believe in God not to be small and mean-spirited.
Besides, it is precisely because private charity is insufficient to provide a reasonable safety net for the poor, that the Government must provide those services in order to maintain peace and public order.
I suspect that you are not quite as hard-hearted as you pretend to be.

1225 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:10:55pm

re: #1212 medaura18586

Whoa.
Never thought I'd see the day when I put one of your posts into my "favorites", but that's the post and I just put it there. Great. Thank you.

1226 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:20:26pm
UPDATE at 8/11/09 11:07:29 am:
Remember this quote, repeated several times by Obama:
“I won’t sign a bill that adds to the national debt or the deficit.”

(in late)

I assume that Obama's context was regarding the health care bill.

Nevertheless, am I permitted to ROFLM@%#$!&A off ?

*stalking from the room*

1227 callahan23  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:25:17pm

re: #1019 lawhawk

Last post for a while... just learned that my grandmother just passed away. She was 92 years old.

Thank you everyone for your wishes in advance. I sincerely appreciate them, even if I don't respond personally.

My deepest condolences and my sympathies to you and your family, (((lawhawk))).

1228 formercorpsman  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:29:09pm

re: #1212 medaura18586

Good post Medaura.

1229 callahan23  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:33:17pm

re: #1212 medaura18586

Thank you, excellent post. Green ♥

1230 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 2:48:43pm

re: #1225 reine.de.tout

Whoa.
Never thought I'd see the day when I put one of your posts into my "favorites", but that's the post and I just put it there. Great. Thank you.

Unthinkable! ;)

1231 code red 21  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:19:37pm

re: #1212 medaura18586

I am also one of those selfish bastards who doesn't think people "dying in the streets," "the poor," "the homeless," or any such sob story is any of my business, unless I happen to be inclined to ameliorate their condition by means of voluntary charitable donations. The only reason I pay (and will continue to) those portions of my taxes that go toward distributive ends is because if I don't, I'll go to jail, and not because I believe I have a moral obligation to the "underprivileged."

I beg to differ with you...you are not a selfish bastard Mr. Red and I both believe the same way. The poor and underprivileged have been used by the government as a big stick, and a way to, figuratively speaking, put a gun to our heads and rob us of what we have earned to give it to people who do nothing to earn it. When we give to charity it's not through any agency but directly to the people, and in such a way, that they do not know where it came from. We don't do it for votes we do it because we choose to. I wish I had your way with words it was a great post and one I will add to my favorites.

1232 leftover54  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 3:22:50pm

Wow.Cooked and done.Why do I even bother...

1233 Ed_Gibbon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:30:26pm

re: #25 CIA Reject

Yes...except anything positive

1234 EaterOfFood  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:34:04pm

re: #1195 Buck

Every adult Canadian has a story to tell.

Obviously the ones who died from waiting too long can tell them.

1235 EaterOfFood  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 4:34:36pm

re: #1234 EaterOfFood

can=cannot

Sorry.

1236 Pupdawg  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:23:04pm

'Apparently the people at this meeting were not pre-screened'

...and neither were the softball questions pre-planned.

Riggght...and Bigfoot was spotted this afternoon at an Atlanta Hooters scarfing hot wings washed down with a pitcher of Natty' Light.

1237 harpsicon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:28:13pm

re: #1212 medaura18586

Extremely well said.

In the end this isn't about health care, it's about what kind of government we're going to have, an intrusive government or one which tries its best to leave us alone.

There are a lot of very smart people who think we can "do it all together" but I think Hayek demonstrated why this is a fantasy in "The Road to Serfdom",

1238 harpsicon  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 5:40:05pm

re: #1224 Spare O'Lake

One does not have to believe in God not to be small and mean-spirited.
Besides, it is precisely because private charity is insufficient to provide a reasonable safety net for the poor, that the Government must provide those services in order to maintain peace and public order.
I suspect that you are not quite as hard-hearted as you pretend to be.

See comment #1231 on this.

We absolutely don't need the government to help us when the help we give the poor and unfortunate is insufficient.

Who defines insufficient?! In the 1970's in New York City welfare benefits were so high, and extra programs like free winter coats were so numerous, that a working person didn't do as well as people on welfare, especially when taxes were considered into the bargain.

There have been numerous posts on this blog about the abuses of Social Security disability, for instance - how people are content to spend entire unproductive lives living in inherited houses and driving very decent cars while not doing a scrap of work.

All because we the people aren't in charge of deciding what's "sufficient" to help the poor, but rather some governmental official who sees no harm in making life for people who don't work every bit as nice as for people who do.

As in New York City, eventually this all breaks down for economic reasons. With the federal government's ability to deficit-finance, it takes a heck of a lot longer.

We need to encourage people who are productive, not the opposite, with our programs, whatever they are. I think liberals must really believe that everybody likes getting up and going to work in the morning. If only!

It's not hard-hearted to feel as Medauro and Code Red feel. It's sensible.

1239 medaura18586  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 7:45:21pm

re: #1224 Spare O'Lake

One does not have to believe in God not to be small and mean-spirited.
Besides, it is precisely because private charity is insufficient to provide a reasonable safety net for the poor, that the Government must provide those services in order to maintain peace and public order.
I suspect that you are not quite as hard-hearted as you pretend to be.

I did not claim people who believe in God are small and mean spirited, but that they are drawn to creationism. One dogma feeds the other -- with many exceptions, of course -- but it is a trend. Likewise, one way of approaching the world -- through a collectivist/altruistic morality -- feeds another domain of thinking -- how to solve practical economic problems. Collectivism in one area transfers to another. Which is why so many of those who believe health care is a positive human right we are all entitled to, also are inclined toward collectivist/centrally-planned solutions for making sure everyone be provided with said health care. Just like there are very few non-creationist believers, proportionally speaking, there seem to be very few health-care universalists proposing market-based implementations of universal health-care that empower individuals, as opposed to government bureaucracies.

Oh and I do not pretend to be cold hearted. People who have earned my respect and friendship know me as generous and as someone who would go out of her way to help a friend in need. But it's my prerogative whether to give or not, help or not, sacrifice for someone else or not -- I do it when I want to, because I want to, if I think someone deserves it, not because the recipient of my generosity is inherently entitled to anything from me by sheer virtue of his/her neediness.

The altruistic ethics on which our welfare and other redistributive programs are based is a relic of Christian culture in a post-religious world. The theistic flesh has rotted away, but the skeleton remains. People just take it for granted and don't even question the ultimate source of this morality. Why do I owe anything to the homeless? What about to deadbeats? To people who don't want to bother working, at all or enough? I just assume people will think me cold hearted when I reveal myself as I am because my morality cuts against the grain of our culture, but in my own terms, I don't feel cold-hearted or mean spirited at all. Quite the contrary.

1240 el polacko  Tue, Aug 11, 2009 10:00:24pm

there must be a new definition of 'pre-screened'... a little girl worried about "mean signs" is NOT a plant ?? really ???


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
4 weeks ago
Views: 442 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1