Scientific Review Shows ‘Unambiguous’ Evidence of Global Warming

Environment • Views: 3,864

A newly released year-long international scientific review of the evidence for global warming has concluded that the evidence is even stronger than the IPCC maintains.

The review, published in the journal Wiley Interdisciplinary Reviews: Climate Change, found several “fingerprints” of warming that had not been established by the time of the last IPCC assessment but were now unambiguously present.

One is human-induced climate in the Antarctic, the last continent where regional warming has been demonstrated.

There is also new evidence of warming in the oceans, which is having several effects. The subtropical Atlantic is becoming saltier; the extra salinity could in turn alter ocean currents.

Another effect of ocean warming is increasing evaporation, leading to more humidity in the atmosphere and changing rainfall patterns. …

The review is based on a forensic comparison of the pattern of changes expected from man-made warming with those that would result from other factors such as changing solar radiation and purely natural variations.

A separate study by Russian and US scientists, published today in the journal Science, shows methane, a powerful greenhouse gas, is escaping from the seafloor of the warming Arctic Ocean more rapidly than has been suspected.

(Hat tip: freetoken.)

Jump to bottom

740 comments
1 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:24:39pm

Well, it's good thing we already devastated the fishing stocks, because saltier water is going to devastate the fishing stocks.

Methane escaping more quickly is a nightmare scenario, too. Fuck.

2 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:27:08pm

Death Don't Have No Mercy In This Land


- Hot Tuna
3 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:27:34pm

re: #1 Obdicut

Well, it's good thing we already devastated the fishing stocks, because saltier water is going to devastate the fishing stocks.

Methane escaping more quickly is a nightmare scenario, too. Fuck.

Maybe the melting glaciers will dilute the intensified salinity from the warming?

/Old line: 'Maybe the nuclear winter and global warming will cancel each other out.'

4 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:28:33pm

So once again for the record, when it was widely reported and claimed here, that the IPCC was watered down in many ways as the result of political wrangling, and that many in the scientific community were very disappointed by it - this was not an exaggeration.

This is not to say that IPCC is garbage. Far from it. However, the executive briefs are very political and many very important effects were left out of the report.

5 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:28:42pm

The top link isn't working for me, by the way.

This is another great paper on Wiley for anyone interested in the costs of adaptation vs. mitigation-- though it mainly just talks about adaptation.

re: #3 SanFranciscoZionist

Nah. The salinity is going to be constant with the temperature.

/sorry, my pedantic button is stuck.

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:29:15pm

re: #5 Obdicut

The top link isn't working for me, by the way.

This is another great paper on Wiley for anyone interested in the costs of adaptation vs. mitigation-- though it mainly just talks about adaptation.

Nah. The salinity is going to be constant with the temperature.

/sorry, my pedantic button is stuck.

Well, crap. It seemed like a good idea!

7 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:29:36pm

re: #3 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe the melting glaciers will dilute the intensified salinity from the warming?

/Old line: 'Maybe the nuclear winter and global warming will cancel each other out.'

It is very interesting that you mention this. It is precisely this mechanism - with the melts off of Greenland and Canada that are shutting down thermo haline circulation in the Atlantic.

8 Opal  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:29:52pm

What is it with international scientists? Why do they keep making stuff up about global climate change? I predict that the good folks over at Exxon will get one of their toadies to hack some emails between those scientists. Then we'll all know that this so-called "research" is just another scientific hoax.

9 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:29:55pm

[Link: www3.interscience.wiley.com...]

Er, here's that paper.

The main point is that adaptation costs have been underestimated so far. So, more bad news.

Yay.

10 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:30:08pm

re: #5 Obdicut

The top link isn't working for me, by the way.

This is another great paper on Wiley for anyone interested in the costs of adaptation vs. mitigation-- though it mainly just talks about adaptation.

Nah. The salinity is going to be constant with the temperature.

/sorry, my pedantic button is stuck.

BE careful about that. It will also drastically affect currents.

11 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:30:22pm

re: #9 Obdicut

[Link: www3.interscience.wiley.com...]

Er, here's that paper.

The main point is that adaptation costs have been underestimated so far. So, more bad news.

Yay.

Good link

12 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:30:33pm

re: #7 LudwigVanQuixote

It is very interesting that you mention this. It is precisely this mechanism - with the melts off of Greenland and Canada that are shutting down thermo haline circulation in the Atlantic.

Note to self: stop making lame jokes on the AGW threads. They only elicit more terrible news.

13 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:31:14pm

re: #10 LudwigVanQuixote

True, sorry. That kind of mistake is probably really annoying to someone in your field.

14 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:31:27pm

re: #8 Opal

What is it with international scientists? Why do they keep making stuff up about global climate change? I predict that the good folks over at Exxon will get one of their toadies to hack some emails between those scientists. Then we'll all know that this so-called "research" is just another scientific hoax.

Sarc tag needed?

15 Charles Johnson  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:31:31pm

re: #5 Obdicut

The top link isn't working for me, by the way.

Looks like the Financial Times is beginning to seriously try to stop people from linking to their articles. Which, if you think about it, is probably the stupidest thing in the world to do if your business is based on web advertising.

16 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:33:23pm

re: #15 Charles

I don't know what to say about that. For the life of me, I can't figure out what the print media thinks it's achieving when it does stuff like that.

17 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:33:45pm

re: #12 SanFranciscoZionist

Note to self: stop making lame jokes on the AGW threads. They only elicit more terrible news.

Honestly one of the things that will occur, which is a sort of grim victory for me, is that people will see why I am as dedicated to this as I am.

I mean I work with this stuff every day. I read a new and very alarming paper every day on the topic. Once people begin to really perceive the actual magnitude of the problem, and just how many different interlinking systems that we rely on will shift in ways we will not like, they will at first be overwhelmed and then horrified.

18 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:34:09pm

re: #13 Obdicut

True, sorry. That kind of mistake is probably really annoying to someone in your field.

No no my friend it is all good.

19 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:34:40pm

re: #7 LudwigVanQuixote

It is very interesting that you mention this. It is precisely this mechanism - with the melts off of Greenland and Canada that are shutting down thermo haline circulation in the Atlantic.

It's gonna take a lot of fireworks nuclear bombs to clean this place up. -- Homer Simpson

20 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:35:04pm

re: #15 Charles

Try using this redirection:
[Link: www.newsnow.co.uk...]

21 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:35:41pm

re: #2 Bagua

Death Don't Have No Mercy In This Land

[Video]
- Hot Tuna

Hot Tuna!
2pts

22 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:35:51pm

re: #20 freetoken

Works for me.

23 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:37:46pm

DOOMED! I tell ya

24 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:39:51pm

re: #17 LudwigVanQuixote

Honestly one of the things that will occur, which is a sort of grim victory for me, is that people will see why I am as dedicated to this as I am.

I mean I work with this stuff every day. I read a new and very alarming paper every day on the topic. Once people begin to really perceive the actual magnitude of the problem, and just how many different interlinking systems that we rely on will shift in ways we will not like, they will at first be overwhelmed and then horrified.

Professor Slingo: The statement that global warming is unequivocal, which is what the Fourth Assessment Report said, is definitely the case. It has not been challenged by any evidence that has emerged since then. In fact, as Professor Beddington said, we know that not just from the land surface temperature record, which is what we are here to discuss today, but from indeed many other variables that it is unequivocal and that, as the IPCC report said, over 90 per cent very likely due to human activities. Where the uncertainty comes in is in the future projections of climate change, and there are uncertainties related to the emission scenarios, to some of our understanding of the physics and indeed the biogeochemical cycles of the Earth and how they will respond as the planet warms. We articulate those very, very clearly. We need to be careful not to confuse the level of certainty around the observational base, which is what we are here to discuss today, and the uncertainty that exists as we go forward, particularly towards the end of this century.

25 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:40:59pm

OT- When pissing and moaning, one generals runs out of piss.

26 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:41:31pm

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

Why do you put huge chunks of text in blue? It's kind of hard on the eyes.

27 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:42:06pm

re: #26 Obdicut

Why do you put huge chunks of text in blue? It's kind of hard on the eyes.

Try closing your eyes and then look.

28 Bubblehead II  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:42:44pm

re: #15 Charles

Actually, I was able to connect. Lizardlach by chance?

"Review backs man-made global warming
By Clive Cookson in London
Published: March 4 2010 22:16 %P% Last updated: March 4 2010 22:16
The case for man-made global warming is even stronger than the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change maintained in its official assessments, according to the first scientific review published since December’s Copenhagen conference and subsequent attacks on the IPCC’s credibility.

An international research team led by the UK Met Office spent the past year analysing more than 100 recent scientific papers to update the last IPCC assessment, released in 2007."

It has happened before

29 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:43:29pm

""A separate study by Russian and US scientists, published today in the journal Science, shows methane, a powerful greenhouse gas, is escaping from the seafloor of the warming Arctic Ocean more rapidly than has been suspected.""
Well the link worked for me, and that paragraph hints to me we are closer or past the methane tipping point, and just in for a somewhat (if we work hard at this) or very, very rough century.

30 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:43:52pm

re: #25 Cannadian Club Akbar


Generally. My bad.

31 Charles Johnson  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:44:37pm

re: #28 Bubblehead II

Actually, I was able to connect. Lizardlach by chance?

You were able to connect because I changed the link to the one freetoken posted.

The Financial Times pay wall is one of the most aggressive I've seen yet.

32 darthstar  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:46:38pm

re: #2 Bagua

Good version...it's not Jerry, but I've always enjoyed Hot Tuna so thanks all the same.

33 recusancy  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:46:41pm

re: #31 Charles

You were able to connect because I changed the link to the one freetoken posted.

The Financial Times pay wall is one of the most aggressive I've seen yet.

It's weird because you can get to it from their home page but if linked directly to the article they don't allow it. I don't get the reasoning behind that.

34 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:47:04pm

re: #29 Rightwingconspirator

Yep. And meanwhile, the active denial campaign is now trying to get kids in school taught the nontroversy.

If I have any litmus test for candidates, it's taking this issue fucking seriously. It is not, philosophically, the largest issue, but it is simply the most massive problem, and the one needing the most massive effort to combat.

35 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:47:58pm

re: #31 Charles

The FT paywall is one reason why I just avoid articles from their paper.

NewsNow is a good aggregator though, and I suspect FT is happy to have NewsNow pimping their articles.

36 avanti  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:48:14pm

re: #7 LudwigVanQuixote

It is very interesting that you mention this. It is precisely this mechanism - with the melts off of Greenland and Canada that are shutting down thermo haline circulation in the Atlantic.

Am I correct in thinking that Europe may get colder as the earth warms due to the disruption of warming ocean currents too.

37 darthstar  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:48:57pm

re: #33 recusancy

It's weird because you can get to it from their home page but if linked directly to the article they don't allow it. I don't get the reasoning behind that.

Domain location I'm guessing.

38 Bubblehead II  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:49:17pm

re: #31 Charles

Cool. Upding for FT and you for the HT.

39 simoom  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:50:04pm

Louisiana sheriff trains volunteers for 'Project Exodus' to combat terrorism:

A Louisiana sheriff has begun training 200 local volunteers in basic hand-to-hand combat techniques as part of Project Exodus aimed at protecting the northwestern corner of the state from the danger of terrorists, the Shreveport Times reports.
...
Doyle Dempsey, chief deputy for support services, says in the training video that if the project is successful "we will be ahead of the curve when it comes to fighting Islamic extremists."

The volunteers will be equipped with shotguns, riot shields and batons, the newspaper says. A .50-caliber machine gun will be mounted on what the sheriff's office calls "the war wagon."

Five of the 200 volunteers are black, the Times says. Women will be used only in a "support role," Deen says, indicating non-combat activity.
...
TPM Muckraker's Zachary Roth reports sheriff's office spokesman Ed Baswell told him that there have been intelligence reports showing that there have been "cells" and people operating within the parish "that have been trained as terrorists or went overseas to be trained as terrorist."

"It tells us that these are the kinds of thing we can't assume are happening far, far away," Basell said. "Terrorists can tend to strike anywhere and everywhere."

"There's not a state of paranoia, or anything like that," he added.

From the Bossier Parish "Operation Exodus" website:

As evidenced by recent terror threats, it is apparent that homegrown terrorists are in our midst. With the easy accessibility of the internet, it is quite possible that these local and international terrorists can form a national or multiple location attack on our nation at any given moment. And no matter whether we are a direct target or not, fear and panic will still permeate our community. Control will have to be regained to ensure the safety of our residents. That is where Operation Exodus comes into play. It utilizes preventive measures to safeguard Bossier Parish from the fear and outcry that will inevitably transpire.
...
The name Operation Exodus was chosen for three reasons. The word “Exodus” literally means “going out” or “departure.” For the Bossier Sheriff’s Office, Operation Exodus is a “departure” from our normal duties to amplify the protection we provide our citizens. As for the volunteers, they will be “going out” of their way to help the people of the community. And the last reason it was chosen is because of its Biblical relevance. In the book of Exodus, the Israelites were totally on their own, learning to be self-sufficient and handle everything alone, just as the plan provides.

(h/t Balloon-Juice)

40 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:50:10pm

re: #36 avanti

Am I correct in thinking that Europe may get colder as the earth warms due to the disruption of warming ocean currents too.

yes, global warming is misleading....warmer here, colder there

41 avanti  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:52:58pm

re: #40 albusteve

yes, global warming is misleading...warmer here, colder there

It was explained to me as the warmer surface waters sinking before they reach Europe due to changes in salt content.

42 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:53:24pm

aaccck! someone took my last beer!

be back later...

43 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:53:34pm

Papa John...

44 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:54:10pm

re: #32 darthstar

Good version...it's not Jerry, but I've always enjoyed Hot Tuna so thanks all the same.

My pleasure mate, and thank you for the comment. The DJ works for tips.


99 Year Blues


- Hot Tuna
45 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:54:27pm

The rightwing blogs and boards are almost uniformly denialist now. At Free Republic, "climate hoax" is almost required part of the background knowledge, like Reagan's infallibility or the leftism of ingrate Jews.

46 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:55:04pm

It's only a matter of days before someone re-ambiguouses it.

47 recusancy  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:55:22pm

re: #41 avanti

It was explained to me as the warmer surface waters sinking before they reach Europe due to changes in salt content.

48 GoatGuy  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:55:39pm

OH BOY

did anyone really READ the FT article? Really? OK, I guess I'm the first to be incensed at the editorial's utter incompetence. I quote:

“The whole water cycle is changing,” said Mr Stott. “The wet regions are tending to get wetter and the dry regions are getting dryer.”

Globally, this means less rainfall in the tropics and more at higher latitudes, although Mr Stott said there was much regional variation in the pattern, which scientists were still working to make sense of.

Come on FT.COM! I don't get how you limeys can possibly, by ANY stretch of the imagination, let the eminent professor in paragraph 'A', proceed to induct exactly the opposite in paragraph 'B', and give the guy a pass! Or, did y'all copy it wrong?

The tropics, lest everyone forget, is the wettest band of earth's climate. Period. End of story. So, the tropics should be getting more rainfall, not less.

GEEZ.

(PS: this is not the first, nor will it be the last time that the fine British reporting service has managed, within sentences of its quotes, to utterly destroy its mantle of objective journalism. )

49 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:57:19pm

re: #44 Bagua

My pleasure mate, and thank you for the comment. The DJ works for tips.

99 Year Blues

[Video]
- Hot Tuna

(stole my gig)

50 avanti  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:58:15pm

re: #47 recusancy

[Video]

Thanks, that's what I was thinking of.

51 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:58:41pm

re: #42 brookly red

aaccck! someone took my last beer!

be back later...

*burp*

What?

52 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:58:44pm

re: #45 Shiplord Kirel

The rightwing blogs and boards are almost uniformly denialist now. At Free Republic, "climate hoax" is almost required part of the background knowledge, like Reagan's infallibility or the leftism of ingrate Jews.

droolers...just following along, mindlessly

53 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:59:00pm

re: #36 avanti

Am I correct in thinking that Europe may get colder as the earth warms due to the disruption of warming ocean currents too.

That depends on where in Europe you are and at what point in the cycle you are.

So for a little while we can expect colder winters in some places but that all eventually warms over time as well.

54 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 3:59:36pm

For those of you for whom National Security is your #1 issue, here is a great video about climate change, energy use, and national security.

55 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:00:25pm

re: #53 LudwigVanQuixote

That depends on where in Europe you are and at what point in the cycle you are.

So for a little while we can expect colder winters in some places but that all eventually warms over time as well.

in other words, nobody knows what the hell is gonna happen for certain at any place at any time

56 Bubblehead II  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:00:58pm

re: #42 brookly red

Beer run myself. bbiaw

/so much for the BHII rule

57 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:01:32pm

re: #55 albusteve

in other words, nobody knows what the hell is gonna happen for certain at any place at any time

NO not at all. In other words the answer is more complex than can easily be typed in one of these boxes, but nice try troll.

58 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:02:02pm

re: #54 Obdicut

For those of you for whom National Security is your #1 issue, here is a great video about climate change, energy use, and national security.


[Video]

that's my preferred angle...to hell with the rest of all the bickering

59 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:02:10pm

re: #49 albusteve

(stole my gig)

Ain't life a bitch?

Just be glad I left your check!


Stole My Check


- RLB
60 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:02:30pm

re: #54 Obdicut

For those of you for whom National Security is your #1 issue, here is a great video about climate change, energy use, and national security.


[Video]

The first time I heard global climate change mentioned was back in the cold war; an open-release CIA assessment of what would happen if China's rice bowl went up a few degrees.

61 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:02:47pm

Bigger government can easily fix this.

We started the Dept. of Energy in 1977 in order to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, and look how successful that turned out.

What?
Sonofabitch!

62 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:03:01pm

re: #54 Obdicut

For those of you for whom National Security is your #1 issue, here is a great video about climate change, energy use, and national security.


[Video]

Excellent point. I haven't watched your video yet, but it is absolutely certain that as food supplies go down and immigrants try to get in to the country more aggressively there is a security nightmare. Of curse eventually you start talking about American immigrants as well.

63 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:03:03pm

re: #58 albusteve

They make the very good point that some of our options to deal with climate change-- the easiest, lowest-cost options that will save the most number of American lives-- are going to disappear in the next decade if we don't act quickly.

64 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:03:27pm

re: #48 GoatGuy

Obviously you've never been to many of the Caribbean islands, where extensive dry seasons has lead to the evolution of drought resistant orchids.

You've also evidently never been to the mountainous areas of of NW North America, one of the rainiest regions on Earth.

65 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:03:57pm

re: #57 LudwigVanQuixote

NO not at all. In other words the answer is more complex than can easily be typed in one of these boxes, but nice try troll.

troll?....back off, and apologize...I'm no troll, just stating my opinion

66 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:05:17pm

re: #65 albusteve

troll?...back off, and apologize...I'm no troll, just stating my opinion

no that was trolling just like you do every chance you get. I suppose though that trolls have opinions to state, so that was not wholly dishonest.

67 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:05:20pm

re: #62 LudwigVanQuixote

The US is never going to stop going on humanitarian missions, either. That's what we are. It's why I'm proud of us. We have kicked our isolationist binge-- except for certain Drs of Paul.

But we have a chance to lessen the strain on our armed forces before it occurs; we need to take it.

68 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:05:55pm

. . . and here we go!

69 uninformed opinion  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:06:02pm

Just more data to be ignored.

I have seen the results of coal bed methane leakage, i cant imagine an entire region bubbling methane would be very healthy.

70 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:07:22pm

re: #55 albusteve

in other words, nobody knows what the hell is gonna happen for certain at any place at any time

That's what Professor Julia Slingo was basically saying in my comment re: #24 above.

"Where the uncertainty comes in is in the future projections of climate change, and there are uncertainties related to the emission scenarios, to some of our understanding of the physics and indeed the biogeochemical cycles of the Earth and how they will respond as the planet warms. We articulate those very, very clearly. We need to be careful not to confuse the level of certainty around the observational base, which is what we are here to discuss today, and the uncertainty that exists as we go forward, particularly towards the end of this century."

71 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:07:24pm

re: #63 Obdicut

They make the very good point that some of our options to deal with climate change-- the easiest, lowest-cost options that will save the most number of American lives-- are going to disappear in the next decade if we don't act quickly.

this is exactly what I've argued for all along....if deniers can't get on board with the science, then maybe they will respond to a shortage and security crisis...if we act positively it will effectively help to lower CO2 emissions....presto!

72 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:07:40pm

re: #68 Racer X

. . . and here we go!

I hope everybody's nice.
/

73 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:08:16pm

re: #66 LudwigVanQuixote

no that was trolling just like you do every chance you get. I suppose though that trolls have opinions to state, so that was not wholly dishonest.

oh bullshit, saying the future is unpredictable is not trolling you conceited ass

74 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:08:23pm

Wiley review?!
pffft....
you gonna trust someone named after a coyote?

////

75 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:08:48pm

Methane releases are a significant wild card in climate change projections. This is mostly stored as methane clathrates, though there is a significant amount trapped in permafrost as well. The problem is that we don't have a good idea just how much there is, but we do know that enormously large releases can be triggered in a relatively short time frame.
Sudden large scale releases feature prominently in many abrupt climate change scenarios.

76 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:09:36pm

Can I make a suggestion before the flames get too high?

If you disagree with someone, politely explain why. If the disagreement continues, there will probably never be any agreement, and it may be better to just let it go.

It works for me!

77 What, me worry?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:09:44pm

re: #61 Racer X

Bigger government can easily fix this.

We started the Dept. of Energy in 1977 in order to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, and look how successful that turned out.

What?
Sonofabitch!

Actually the hippies were going on about it way before that. And it isn't just that no one listened. It wasn't profitable. Oil is/was profitable.

The Government doesn't have to be bigger, but it can create tax incentives for energy companies to research/explore/utilize alternative fuels and actually, they are doing that now.

78 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:09:44pm

re: #74 Thanos

Wiley review?!
pffft...
you gonna trust someone named after a coyote?

///

ACME stocks are soaring!

79 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:09:48pm

re: #74 Thanos

80 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:09:56pm

re: #54 Obdicut

For those of you for whom National Security is your #1 issue, here is a great video about climate change, energy use, and national security.


[Video]

OK I just watched that. I hope Charles turns it into its own thread. Every right wing person needs to see that.

81 keloyd  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:10:15pm

Those of you who are in the business, what's this I hear about Russian scientists, as a whole, going against AGW? Scientific American has hinted at it a few times, then there's THIS STEAMING BUCKET OF IRONY where climate scientists who want to disprove global warming had to cut their work short by ice melting too soon.

It reminds me of the old Soviet days when our and their scientific communities did not communicate much and went out of their way to get into warring camps, even in the hard-ish sciences. For years, decadent Western scientists thought oil came from living things and the Soviets were loyal to the 'abiotic' theory. Even now some data is a little confouding/contradictory/interesting on that question. Behold the power of Groupthink!

82 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:10:16pm

re: #76 Racer X

Can I make a suggestion before the flames get too high?

If you disagree with someone, politely explain why. If the disagreement continues, there will probably never be any agreement, and it may be better to just let it go.

It works for me!

Good advice!

83 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:10:43pm

re: #71 albusteve

Now that, I can unequivocally get behind.

Rising temperatures mean lost US military lives.

However, you're still wrong to say that nobody knows what's going to happen, anywhere. We have various scenarios, and we know what's going to happen within certain limits, to certain probabilities. We may not be able to say that we'll lose exactly X acres of farmland and have exactly X less potable water, but we can estimate the amount probabilistically.

And methane outgassing faster than expected is a very, very, very, very, very bad thing. It cannot really be overstated how bad this is.

84 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:11:40pm

re: #80 LudwigVanQuixote

OK I just watched that. I hope Charles turns it into its own thread. Every right wing person needs to see that.

right wing?....like the left wing nuke blockers don't need to?....not everything needs to be partisan....that's hackspeak

85 recusancy  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:12:14pm

re: #81 keloyd

Those of you who are in the business, what's this I hear about Russian scientists, as a whole, going against AGW? Scientific American has hinted at it a few times, then there's THIS STEAMING BUCKET OF IRONY where climate scientists who want to disprove global warming had to cut their work short by ice melting too soon.

It reminds me of the old Soviet days when our and their scientific communities did not communicate much and went out of their way to get into warring camps, even in the hard-ish sciences. For years, decadent Western scientists thought oil came from living things and the Soviets were loyal to the 'abiotic' theory. Even now some data is a little confouding/contradictory/interesting on that question. Behold the power of Groupthink!

They are fossil fuel rich and global warming will open up arctic waters so they can claim and extract more natural resources.

86 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:12:26pm

re: #55 albusteve

in other words, nobody knows what the hell is gonna happen for certain at any place at any time

Except that whatever it was that specialized to live there will probably have to adapt or migrate in order to survive. The models give a very good projection of what will happen, no they aren't 100% certain on the per square foot specifics, but the mechanism of greenhouse gas warming is so well documented that sane, educated people should be certain that the overall impact will not be a good one.

87 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:12:56pm

re: #84 albusteve

I think he just meant the angle, national security, is more appealing to the 'right wing' than a lot of other angles on climate change.

88 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:13:10pm

re: #73 albusteve

oh bullshit, saying the future is unpredictable is not trolling you conceited ass

Because we can't predict eclipses well?

You said that no one knows anything and that is not the case.

But again nice try with the trolling.

89 SixDegrees  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:13:14pm

re: #31 Charles

You were able to connect because I changed the link to the one freetoken posted.

The Financial Times pay wall is one of the most aggressive I've seen yet.

Difficult to understand, as you noted. Ad revenues are driven by eyeballs and page refreshes. The New York Times experiment with the Fortress of Solitude approach was a disaster, albeit one they seem intent on repeating.

So far, no one has found a successful formula for making money off subscriptions to web content.

90 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:13:29pm

re: #84 albusteve

right wing?...like the left wing nuke blockers don't need to?...not everything needs to be partisan...that's hackspeak

Are you done yet?

91 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:13:51pm

re: #87 Obdicut

I think he just meant the angle, national security, is more appealing to the 'right wing' than a lot of other angles on climate change.

That is exactly what I meant. Thanks Ob.

92 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:13:58pm

re: #73 albusteve

oh bullshit, saying the future is unpredictable is not trolling you conceited ass

Here is another statement from the 03-01-2010 British Parliament hearing about future unpredictability...

"Professor Watson: Yes, I would agree completely with everything John Beddington and Julia said and indeed, in the IPCC one does point out what are the key uncertainties in projections for the future. That is why indeed the projections of that mean surface temperature change over the next 100 years is a range of 1.4 to 6.4 degrees Celsius. That takes into account the two key uncertainties: uncertainties in the emissions of the greenhouse gases and uncertainty in the climate sensitivity factor. So indeed, one always does talk about uncertainty."

[Link: www.publications.parliament.uk...]

Scientist do speak of the uncertainties of projections for the future. Even IPCC scientist. Well, not all I guess.

93 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:14:23pm

re: #81 keloyd

Those of you who are in the business, what's this I hear about Russian scientists, as a whole, going against AGW? Scientific American has hinted at it a few times, then there's THIS STEAMING BUCKET OF IRONY where climate scientists who want to disprove global warming had to cut their work short by ice melting too soon.

It reminds me of the old Soviet days when our and their scientific communities did not communicate much and went out of their way to get into warring camps, even in the hard-ish sciences. For years, decadent Western scientists thought oil came from living things and the Soviets were loyal to the 'abiotic' theory. Even now some data is a little confouding/contradictory/interesting on that question. Behold the power of Groupthink!

Ahh deniers to left of me deniers to the right... It should be a song!

94 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:14:37pm

re: #83 Obdicut

Now that, I can unequivocally get behind.

Rising temperatures mean lost US military lives.

However, you're still wrong to say that nobody knows what's going to happen, anywhere. We have various scenarios, and we know what's going to happen within certain limits, to certain probabilities. We may not be able to say that we'll lose exactly X acres of farmland and have exactly X less potable water, but we can estimate the amount probabilistically.

And methane outgassing faster than expected is a very, very, very, very, very bad thing. It cannot really be overstated how bad this is.

That's another reason I cringe every time I hear "Drill, Baby, Drill". Until the DoD has substitutes, all of North American oil should be considered an "informal" strategic reserve.

95 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:15:22pm

re: #87 Obdicut

I think he just meant the angle, national security, is more appealing to the 'right wing' than a lot of other angles on climate change.

Your appeal worked on me. I don't consider myself right wing, but national security is one of my top concerns. So your appeal with the vid worked better than Ludwig's would.

96 darthstar  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:15:29pm

re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote

Because we can't predict eclipses well?


...
I read that as 'we can't predict ellipses well'... heh.

97 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:15:30pm

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

Saying the future is completely unpredictable and saying it's somewhat unpredictable is rather different, Walter.

We can predict what will happen probabilistically. That's how prediction works. And methane outgassing shows us that we need to switch to the more devastating scenarios, unfortunately.

98 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:15:31pm

The story is finally getting to other media, in case the FT link goes down:

Humans to blame for climate change - scientists

The story may show up on Murdoch's hate site, FoxNation, by tonight, or perhaps HotAir. No doubt, those evil scientists will be exposed for their socialist plots.

99 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:15:58pm

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

Ludwig... you are now down dinging statements by PROFESSOR JOHN BEDDINGTON, PROFESSOR JULIA SLINGO OBE and PROFESSOR BOB WATSON? You have some problem with what they are saying?

100 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:16:27pm

re: #83 Obdicut

Now that, I can unequivocally get behind.

Rising temperatures mean lost US military lives.

However, you're still wrong to say that nobody knows what's going to happen, anywhere. We have various scenarios, and we know what's going to happen within certain limits, to certain probabilities. We may not be able to say that we'll lose exactly X acres of farmland and have exactly X less potable water, but we can estimate the amount probabilistically.

And methane outgassing faster than expected is a very, very, very, very, very bad thing. It cannot really be overstated how bad this is.

I was expressing what a mess we are headed into...it may be like whack a mole trying to deal with immediate problems...of course sub Saharan water is a good place to start, being predictably in crisis...and there are no doubt other places and problems more or less predictable....but there is still some element of where is the next large problem....will it be Bangladesh or the watershed from Asian glaciers?....or all at once?

101 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:16:49pm

re: #98 freetoken

I'm sure that some heroes will ferret out any stock those scientists own in any renewable energy companies, and conclude that they're obviously biased.

/

102 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:16:50pm

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

Here is another statement from the 03-01-2010 British Parliament hearing about future unpredictability...

"Professor Watson: Yes, I would agree completely with everything John Beddington and Julia said and indeed, in the IPCC one does point out what are the key uncertainties in projections for the future. That is why indeed the projections of that mean surface temperature change over the next 100 years is a range of 1.4 to 6.4 degrees Celsius. That takes into account the two key uncertainties: uncertainties in the emissions of the greenhouse gases and uncertainty in the climate sensitivity factor. So indeed, one always does talk about uncertainty."

[Link: www.publications.parliament.uk...]

Scientist do speak of the uncertainties of projections for the future. Even IPCC scientist. Well, not all I guess.

Like clockwork...

Predictions in this field come in ranges and even on the lowest end of the predictions with the gentlest possible outcomes, the ones that are just as many devs away from the mean as the worst case...

Those situations are still catastrophic.

103 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:17:15pm

re: #93 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't consider Russia "Left" anymore for the record. If you didn't catch the meaning of the old Russian Imperial Eagle on their Olympic outfits, I sure did. The only really healthy part of their economy is Fossil Fuels, so it doesn't surprise me in the least that they would roll to an Anti-AGW stance, their record on nuclear reactors kinda sucks after all.

104 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:17:35pm

re: #97 Obdicut

Saying the future is completely unpredictable and saying it's somewhat unpredictable is rather different, Walter.

We can predict what will happen probabilistically. That's how prediction works. And methane outgassing shows us that we need to switch to the more devastating scenarios, unfortunately.

I never said the future is completely unpredictable, did I? I was responding to Steve who did indicate that. I was trying to show him the way scientist look at uncertainty.

Which Ludwig decided to down ding for some strange reason.

105 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:17:57pm

Oh no:

Climate emails inquiry: Energy consultant linked to physics body's submission

Evidence from a respected scientific body to a parliamentary inquiry examining the behaviour of climate-change scientists, was drawn from an energy industry consultant who argues that global warming is a religion, the Guardian can reveal.

The submission, from the Institute of Physics (IOP), suggested that scientists at the University of East Anglia had cherry-picked data to support conclusions and that key reconstructions of past temperature could not be relied upon.

The evidence was given to the select committee on science and technology, which is investigating emails from climate experts at the University of East Anglia that were released online last year.

The committee interviewed witnesses on Monday, including Phil Jones, the scientist from the university's climatic research unit (CRU), who is at the heart of the controversy.

The Guardian has established that the institute prepared its evidence, which was highly critical of the CRU scientists, after inviting views from Peter Gill, an IOP official who is head of a company in Surrey called Crestport Services.

[...]

106 SixDegrees  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:17:59pm

re: #76 Racer X

Can I make a suggestion before the flames get too high?

If you disagree with someone, politely explain why. If the disagreement continues, there will probably never be any agreement, and it may be better to just let it go.

It works for me!

What a crock of manure, a crock I fully intend to keep beating you over the head with, over and over and over again, because that, and pummeling you with insults, is the only sure way to win you over to my point of view, you worthless, steaming heap of X-ishness!

///^100, just in case it isn't clear that was intended as sarcasm. Seems like that sort of broad-stroked explanation is almost a requirement these days, even if it shouldn't be.

107 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:18:09pm

re: #83 Obdicut

Now that, I can unequivocally get behind.

And methane outgassing faster than expected is a very, very, very, very, very bad thing. It cannot really be overstated how bad this is.

Repeated for emphasis.

108 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:18:57pm

re: #102 LudwigVanQuixote

Like clockwork...

Predictions in this field come in ranges and even on the lowest end of the predictions with the gentlest possible outcomes, the ones that are just as many devs away from the mean as the worst case...

Those situations are still catastrophic.

I haven't seen a word like "catastrophic" or "devastating used in any of the scientific literature I've read, and certainly not from anyone at the recent Parliamentary hearings.

109 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:19:08pm

re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote

Because we can't predict eclipses well?

You said that no one knows anything and that is not the case.

But again nice try with the trolling.

so be it....if you have to see it that way, it's so easy to call be names that I would expect more from you, but you are a constant disappointment Lug

110 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:19:12pm

The Younger Dryas Event was an intensely cold but brief period (@1300 years) that followed a warming period about 13000 years ago (ie, practically yesterday in geological terms). It is interesting mainly for its abrupt onset. Evidence strongly suggests that the transition from warm to near ice age conditions occurred in less than a decade, possibly in as little as two years.

111 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:19:19pm

re: #100 albusteve

I was expressing what a mess we are headed into...it may be like whack a mole trying to deal with immediate problems...of course sub Saharan water is a good place to start, being predictably in crisis...and there are no doubt other places and problems more or less predictable...but there is still some element of where is the next large problem...will it be Bangladesh or the watershed from Asian glaciers?...or all at once?

And "you never hear the one that gets you".

112 keloyd  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:19:27pm

re: #93 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahh deniers to left of me deniers to the right... It should be a song!

For the record, I'm not one of them. I finally came around on AGW. The thrust of my question was what motivates their denial? Their own contradictory data? Local politics? Is NPR or Scientific American over-emphasizing a few Russian crackpots? Are their scientists working in underfunded colleges that have the heat turned off, so how much can you fear global warming if your office is 40 degrees?

113 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:19:53pm

re: #103 Thanos

I don't consider Russia "Left" anymore for the record. If you didn't catch the meaning of the old Russian Imperial Eagle on their Olympic outfits, I sure did. The only really healthy part of their economy is Fossil Fuels, so it doesn't surprise me in the least that they would roll to an Anti-AGW stance, their record on nuclear reactors kinda sucks after all.

well being left did leave a bad taste in their mouths after all... ooops :)

114 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:20:12pm

re: #112 keloyd

Charles has posted at length about the groups funding AGW denial. You can search the LFG archives.

115 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:20:51pm

re: #105 freetoken

Oh no:

Climate emails inquiry: Energy consultant linked to physics body's submission

You know I will bet you $50 this is why Walter was asking as an "honest question" what my opinion was of the IOP.

Actually I knew about that then too, but didn't rise to the bait.

Walter thinks he is sooo very subtle.

116 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:21:11pm

re: #109 albusteve

so be it...if you have to see it that way, it's so easy to call be names that I would expect more from you, but you are a constant disappointment Lug

Ok so you aren't done.

117 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:21:20pm

re: #99 Walter L. Newton

Ludwig... you are now down dinging statements by PROFESSOR JOHN BEDDINGTON, PROFESSOR JULIA SLINGO OBE and PROFESSOR BOB WATSON? You have some problem with what they are saying?

Professor Watson is the UK's Chief Scientific Advisor and a prior IPCC Chairman.

118 recusancy  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:21:23pm

re: #112 keloyd

For the record, I'm not one of them. I finally came around on AGW. The thrust of my question was what motivates their denial? Their own contradictory data? Local politics? Is NPR or Scientific American over-emphasizing a few Russian crackpots? Are their scientists working in underfunded colleges that have the heat turned off, so how much can you fear global warming if your office is 40 degrees?

#85

119 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:21:58pm
120 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:22:21pm

re: #115 LudwigVanQuixote

You know I will bet you $50 this is why Walter was asking as an "honest question" what my opinion was of the IOP.

Actually I knew about that then too, but didn't rise to the bait.

Walter thinks he is sooo very subtle.

Yes, I was inquiring about who these folks stand in the scientific community. Reasonable question, and Freetoken found a reasonable answer.

121 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:22:26pm

re: #46 Decatur Deb

It's only a matter of days before someone re-ambiguouses it.

I believe the phrase your looking for is "The idea that we're not suffering from Global Warming has officially been Re-bunked!"

122 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:22:59pm

re: #116 LudwigVanQuixote

Ok so you aren't done.

your obsession with finalizing things is such a turn off.

123 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:23:28pm
124 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:23:40pm

Here is another National Security perspective on climate change, from the Truman Project:

[Link: www.trumanproject.org...]

125 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:23:52pm

re: #121 jamesfirecat

I believe the phrase your looking for is "The idea that we're not suffering from Global Warming has officially been Re-bunked!"

I'm sure the first drafts are finished at the spinmills.

126 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:24:58pm

re: #112 keloyd

For the record, I'm not one of them. I finally came around on AGW. The thrust of my question was what motivates their denial? Their own contradictory data? Local politics? Is NPR or Scientific American over-emphasizing a few Russian crackpots? Are their scientists working in underfunded colleges that have the heat turned off, so how much can you fear global warming if your office is 40 degrees?

I really don't have the time to go through all the, shall we call them "misunderstandings," of science you have posted and that I have corrected over the past several months. Note I am being very charitable calling your many posts misunderstandings rather than calling them more accurate things like, distortions, breathless smears and out and out lies or ignorance.

So really it is so very much less fun with deniers like you. I'll never be as harsh on MKelly, because he is honest about his denial and he just clearly doesn't get the science. You on the other hand, you deny that you are even a denier. Very not cool.

127 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:25:57pm

re: #119 albusteve

So who came out swinging and has been swinging this whole thread?

Really are you done yet?

I mean I suppose we could fight, but I would rather talk to literate people.

128 Digital Display  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:26:23pm

I'm still in the Climate change for dummies stage and try to read lots of links...
But I have always loved pure science websites since the web started.. I read bad Astronomy every day..The Universe today the daily Galaxy ..I mean there are a lot.... Dr. Pamela Gay is like one of my hero's..She buys Telescopes for Girl Scouts to explore the Universe...
This may be the first time in my life Scientists have been portrayed as nothing more that Dr. Frankenstein in a Castle that want to do nothing more that bend you over and f*ck you and steal your wallet..
I am amazed at this turn in political events...
I've got to do some googling..When was the last time we politicized science to this degree? Scopes trials? I'm going to have to do a post on this....

129 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:26:28pm

re: #126 LudwigVanQuixote

I really don't have the time to go through all the, shall we call them "misunderstandings," of science you have posted and that I have corrected over the past several months. Note I am being very charitable calling your many posts misunderstandings rather than calling them more accurate things like, distortions, breathless smears and out and out lies or ignorance.

So really it is so very much less fun with deniers like you. I'll never be as harsh on MKelly, because he is honest about his denial and he just clearly doesn't get the science. You on the other hand, you deny that you are even a denier. Very not cool.

jack boots are scary to most people...

130 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:27:31pm

re: #129 brookly red

Can we stop with accusations that Ludwig is a Nazi or a collaborator, please?

131 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:27:36pm

re: #99 Walter L. Newton

Ludwig... you are now down dinging statements by PROFESSOR JOHN BEDDINGTON, PROFESSOR JULIA SLINGO OBE and PROFESSOR BOB WATSON? You have some problem with what they are saying?

No I am down dinging the way that you are going to try to misrepresent it.

132 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:28:20pm

The thing I would say is that you cannot predict the future with any degree of certainty, but you certainly can detect and measure trends and prepare for them. The future's still going to happen no matter how much we debate it here.

I recommend Virginia's book : The Future and its Enemies

133 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:28:29pm

re: #131 LudwigVanQuixote

No I am down dinging the way that you are going to try to misrepresent it.

That's cute. You are down dinging me for some supposed future event. You don't have any uncertainty about doing that :)

134 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:28:39pm

re: #130 Obdicut

Can we stop with accusations that Ludwig is a Nazi or a collaborator, please?

I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one and assume he meant that the deniers cover up their denial by not wearing jackboots.

135 keloyd  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:29:00pm

re: #126 LudwigVanQuixote

On what do you base your assertion that I am a denier? My original post here was pro AGW. I cited denier Russian scientists who were hoisted by their own petard. I clearly labeled the irony of denier scientists who had to pack up early because of thin ice.

136 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:29:24pm

re: #133 Walter L. Newton

That's cute. You are down dinging me for some supposed future event. You don't have any uncertainty about doing that :)

Ummm no you went right ahead and misrepresented it in a response to the steve troll that I corrected for you. Your memory is getting short there Walter.

137 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:29:30pm

re: #132 Thanos

Thanks for the recommendation. That's awesome.

138 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:29:54pm

re: #135 keloyd

On what do you base your assertion that I am a denier? My original post here was pro AGW.

Umm your post, tone and mangling of facts over a long period that I have observed?

139 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:30:23pm

re: #130 Obdicut

Can we stop with accusations that Ludwig is a Nazi or a collaborator, please?

I never said he was either... I only implied he was inflexible (and I think he would agree) so stop putting words in my mouth I have never used the words Nazi or collaborator in any post.

140 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:30:44pm

re: #132 Thanos

I bet i'm going to disagree with her, but it's the conversation we need to be having.

141 Bubblehead II  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:31:17pm

Well I am back and am now out. Looks like the LGF version of WWF (b)raw(l) is getting into full swing. Try to keep the blood letting to a minimum level.

L8R

142 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:31:26pm

re: #131 LudwigVanQuixote

No I am down dinging the way that you are going to try to misrepresent it.

No, but I do take issue with YOUR future predictions about "billions and billions" will die, versus these honored scientist who have no problem admitting that there is an uncertainty to the actual outcomes.

I have also tried to find any paper of publication that uses the same terminology as you do... "billions and billion will die." I can't find anything that put figures into that stratosphere.

So, my only point is I feel that your "predictions" are in the least overstated, at least if your are certain about what you are eradicating.

143 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:31:28pm

re: #135 keloyd

On what do you base your assertion that I am a denier? My original post here was pro AGW. I cited denier Russian scientists who were hoisted by their own petard. I clearly labeled the irony of denier scientists who had to pack up early because of thin ice.

You're on double secret probation.

144 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:31:43pm

re: #139 brookly red

Jackboot implies totalitarian, specifically Nazi. It's not a phrase to toss around lightly.

145 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:31:58pm
146 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:32:09pm

re: #7 LudwigVanQuixote

It is very interesting that you mention this. It is precisely this mechanism - with the melts off of Greenland and Canada that are shutting down thermo haline circulation in the Atlantic.

Hey, don't be blaming us, just like many good Canadians I leave my fridge door open for extended periods in an effort to cool the place off.

147 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:33:01pm

re: #142 Walter L. Newton

No, but I do take issue with YOUR future predictions about "billions and billions" will die, versus these honored scientist who have no problem admitting that there is an uncertainty to the actual outcomes.

I have also tried to find any paper of publication that uses the same terminology as you do... "billions and billion will die." I can't find anything that put figures into that stratosphere.

So, my only point is I feel that your "predictions" are in the least overstated, at least if your are certain about what you are eradicating.

Oops... last wurd wrong... bad Walter... bad... "eradicating" although maybe a Fruedian slip... :)

148 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:33:25pm

re: #144 Obdicut

Jackboot implies totalitarian, specifically Nazi. It's not a phrase to toss around lightly.

totalitarian? perhaps... Nazi ? your own trip.

149 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:33:52pm

re: #140 Obdicut

I bet i'm going to disagree with her, but it's the conversation we need to be having.

You might or might not - she bashes the technocrats as well as the reactionary style of planners equally well. It's a bit out of date but really is a seminal work.

150 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:34:02pm

re: #144 Obdicut

Jackboot implies totalitarian, specifically Nazi. It's not a phrase to toss around lightly.

oh fuck...neither is liar and troll and asshole eh?....might as well be fair about it

151 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:34:20pm

re: #142 Walter L. Newton

The methane outgassing means that the more pessimistic outlooks should be adopted, which do result in billions dead.

What have you read, exactly, Walter? I've seen plenty of studies that show that, if the worst-case scenarios-- like dramatic methane outgassing-- occurr, that billions will die. How have you manged to miss the implications of things like 3 billion people having to move or starve due to climate change?

[Link: www.newscientist.com...]

152 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:34:27pm

re: #129 brookly red

jack boots are scary to most people...

Which has what to do with the issue of Global Warming?

153 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:34:42pm

Excuse me if I don't dance with glee at this latest terrible news.

154 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:35:23pm

re: #148 brookly red

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The boots are connected to fascism, particularly Nazism, as they were issued by the Wehrmacht and SS as part of the World War II German uniform before Germany encountered leather shortages. When goosestepping on pavement, the large columns of German soldiers in Marschstiefel ("marching boots") created a distinct rock-crushing sound which came to symbolize German conquest and occupation.

It's not something to throw around lightly. If you don't mean that implication, that's fine, but it's something that a lot of people-- especially Jews-- are going to take away from what you said.

155 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:35:26pm
156 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:36:05pm

re: #149 Thanos

Yeah, seminal works are rarely perfect, but I'm just very happy she's addressing the problem. It doesn't even matter if I agree with her; I agree with the way she's framing the problem.

157 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:36:17pm

re: #128 HoosierHoops

Hoops I got your back. Honestly AGW basics are easily understood from simple energy conservation arguments. If you buy those than you conclude that there must be a problem.

The sun is a giant thermonuclear fire ball that is held together by gravity. Because of its mass and composition, the sun emits light mostly centered around the visible spectrum but with a great deal of IR.

Solar spectra have been directly measured. This is where the frequency distribution of the energy peaks.

Energy is conserved. That means that once energy can change forms but it never "goes away from" the universe. As an immediate consequence, if something takes on energy from another source, it has that energy and manifests it in some way.

CO2, because of its nature absorbs IR radiation very well. This ultimately has to do with quantum mechanics and the nature of its bonds. But it is sufficient to even state that empirically as just a property of the material without going into why. Water turns to ice because of QM ultimately as well, but it is sufficient to note the phenomena without getting side tracked.

Now, if matter absorbs light energy several things can happen. The light can be absorbed, at which point the matter has that energy and it causes the molecules of the matter to vibrate and do various mechanical motions. This is what heat is. If you doubt that heating can occur in this way, sit outside on a sunny day and then move to the shade. It is cooler in the shade, because you are not absorbing as much light and warming up.

Another possibility is that the light gets reflected. Energy is still conserved, the thing doing the reflection does not heat as a result of the reflection. The energy comes in and then it goes out.

Another possibility if the bonds of the molecule are just rightly tuned to the frequency of the incident light, as is the case with CO2 and IR, is that the light is absorbed and then re-radiated out some time later in all directions.

That manes that IR that was reflected by the Earth's surface can get caught by CO2 in the atmosphere and re-radiated back down where it has another shot of getting absorbed and heating something.

This is called the greenhouse effect.

This is a property of the material. If you have more of it, you have more energy trapped in the Earth system and the Earth gets hotter because energy as always, is still conserved.

Past this point, there is NO debate. There is none. if you get this basic science, then you must conclude that adding more CO2 means trapping more IR.

To believe that adding more CO2 to the atmosphere would not cause warming is like believing that adding three table spoons of salt to your coffee would not alter the taste. These are properties of the materials. They do what they do.

158 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:36:19pm

And while we are at it, publishing new reports here, and highlighting information that has not been seen on LGF before, let's look at the "state" of scientific software, since that has been a big issue of mine.

(And I will try to cut down on the "blue link field" for the sake of Obdicut's sensitive eyes).

Memorandum submitted by Professor Darrel Ince (CRU 34) - I am Professor of Computing at the Open University and the author of 18 books and over a hundred papers on software topics.

"There is enough evidence for us to regard a lot of scientific software with worry. For example Professor Les Hatton, an international expert in software testing resident in the Universities of Kent and Kingston, carried out an extensive analysis of several million lines of scientific code. He showed that the software had an unacceptably high level of detectable inconsistencies. For example, interface inconsistencies between software modules occurred at the rate of one in every 7 interfaces on average in the programming language Fortran, and one in every 37 interfaces in the language C. This is hugely worrying when you realise that just one error-just one-will often invalidate a computer program. What he also discovered, even more worryingly, is that the accuracy of results declined from 6 significant figures to 1 significant figure during the running of programs."

159 MandyManners  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:36:28pm

Shooting near the Pentagon.

160 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:36:41pm

Harry's Place posted a highly potent article:

The video someone doesn’t want you to see

Harry’s Place has been playing a cat-and-mouse game with someone over the last two days to bring you this video of the homophobic lunatic Abdul Karim Hattin speaking at the East London Mosque.

161 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:36:45pm

re: #155 Aceofwhat?

Hey Ace, you should watch the national security video I posted above, as well as the paper saying that we've underestimated the costs of adaptation up until this point.

162 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:37:08pm

People often stop me on the street and say "Frank, your karma to comment ratio is so high, what's your secret? Is it the funky cold medina?"

Well yes, part of my stunning success is partly thanks to the FCM. The other half of the answer lies in not getting into running battles with jackasses who just are not going to get it.

This whack of the clue-stick has been brought to you by the letters T O N E & L O C

163 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:37:45pm

re: #159 MandyManners

Shooting near the Pentagon.

Please let no one be dead, please let no one be dead....

I'll settle for no one but the shooter being dead...... but still nothing like real life violence to take all the fun out of arguing over the internet...

164 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:38:01pm

re: #152 jamesfirecat

Which has what to do with the issue of Global Warming?

well actually to reference an earlier thread the notion of "shoving something down someone else's throat" is kinda a turn off to a lot of people... you don't make friends by calling people deniers.

165 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:38:05pm

re: #130 Obdicut

Can we stop with accusations that Ludwig is a Nazi or a collaborator, please?

Boo. The term is not synonymous with Nazism. Don't diminish Nazism.

[Link: www.urbandictionary.com...]

166 zephirus  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:38:15pm

re: #4 LudwigVanQuixote

I know some folks working on the methane. They are hesitant to make any statements until they are absolutely sure about it for fear of being called chicken-littleists.

167 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:38:34pm

re: #112 keloyd

For the record, I'm not one of them. I finally came around on AGW. The thrust of my question was what motivates their denial? Their own contradictory data? Local politics? Is NPR or Scientific American over-emphasizing a few Russian crackpots? Are their scientists working in underfunded colleges that have the heat turned off, so how much can you fear global warming if your office is 40 degrees?

It is profitable to tell people what they want to hear.

Ignorance and suspicion of scientists and the scientific method are endemic in this culture. This is abetted and reinforced by popular culture, certain religious leaders, sleazy politicians, and anyone else who has a stake in telling people what they want to hear. That, in turn, is that they are not really ignorant losers, that the elites are a fraud, and that achievements they can't match are actually worthless. It is very much the and the same messsage that conspiracy theorists are peddling and it is aimed at the same audience.
It is pandering, pure and simple and it perpetuates the ignorance from which these people profit so handsomely. For example, if people were encouraged to understand rather than ridicule science, they might start to think critically and logically. The advertising industry and the fluff industries that depend on it might well go out of business. Whole belief systems, political and religious, would be wiped out overnight.

168 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:38:46pm

re: #154 Obdicut

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It's not something to throw around lightly. If you don't mean that implication, that's fine, but it's something that a lot of people-- especially Jews-- are going to take away from what you said.

I am a Jew don't try to play that card.

169 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:39:10pm

re: #164 brookly red

well actually to reference an earlier thread the notion of "shoving something down someone else's throat" is kinda a turn off to a lot of people... you don't make friends by calling people deniers.

You don't win friends with SALAD, YOU DON'T WIN FRIENDS WITH SALAD!

//Sorry when in doubt my gut reaction is to go for the Simpson's joke.

170 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:39:24pm

re: #151 Obdicut

The methane outgassing means that the more pessimistic outlooks should be adopted, which do result in billions dead.

What have you read, exactly, Walter? I've seen plenty of studies that show that, if the worst-case scenarios-- like dramatic methane outgassing-- occurr, that billions will die. How have you manged to miss the implications of things like 3 billion people having to move or starve due to climate change?

[Link: www.newscientist.com...]

I've read that article, and it has been linked here a number of times. That article does not mention "billions and billions of deaths"... you even make that obvious in your quote... "3 billion people having to move or starve due to climate change."

I have not been able to find anything by peer-reviewed scientist that uses terms like "catastrophic," "devastating" or "billion and billion will die." I'm open to being guided to statement like that.

171 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:39:31pm

re: #161 Obdicut

Hey Ace, you should watch the national security video I posted above, as well as the paper saying that we've underestimated the costs of adaptation up until this point.

saw it. will absolutely watch/read before i engage in our next go'round.

172 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:39:35pm

re: #165 Aceofwhat?

I'm not saying it's synonymous, nor am I diminishing Nazism. I'm saying that if you say "jackboot", Jews think of the Nazi jackboot. I'm Jewish. So is Ludwig. It's not a phrase to throw around lightly. It is highly associated with the Nazis.

173 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:39:54pm

re: #159 MandyManners

Shooting near the Pentagon.

The 25,000 least heavily armed Americans you will ever see.

174 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:39:56pm

re: #156 Obdicut

Yeah, seminal works are rarely perfect, but I'm just very happy she's addressing the problem. It doesn't even matter if I agree with her; I agree with the way she's framing the problem.

Yes, it takes it completely out of Right vs Left context that we almost always slot all things in. Stasist vs Dynamist is a completely different way to look at things.

175 keloyd  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:39:56pm

re: #138 LudwigVanQuixote
I havent even been here a long period of time, 5 months. You're mood is causing you to misinterpret my words, which end tonight with this post. This thing is getting flame-warry and it's dinner time. Whether you believe it or not, I've come around on AGW in the last year or so, and I am skeptical and pragmatic, and NOT an idealist by my nature, so my choice of words will always show a certain wariness on any subject.

176 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:39:59pm

re: #168 brookly red

Then you ought to know better.

177 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:40:07pm

re: #142 Walter L. Newton

No, but I do take issue with YOUR future predictions about "billions and billions" will die, versus these honored scientist who have no problem admitting that there is an uncertainty to the actual outcomes.

I have also tried to find any paper of publication that uses the same terminology as you do... "billions and billion will die." I can't find anything that put figures into that stratosphere.

So, my only point is I feel that your "predictions" are in the least overstated, at least if your are certain about what you are eradicating.

Ahh Walter this was answered ad nauseum as so many of your other "objections" were answered.

For the record, when I say billions will die, I am not making a precies prediction because I do not know how many billions will die as a result of unchecked AGW.

I do know for certain though that the number will be more than only hundreds of millions.

I know this from looking at the combined effects of fresh water loss, crop loss, spread of contagion (these three alone are sufficient to account for the billions estimate) and loss of living space through rising seas.

I also know this from the historical fact that humans kill each other over dwindling resources.

If you would ever take the time to actually research the science and then contemplate that there is such a thing as cause and effect, then you will see that the billions estimate is completely reasonable.

178 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:41:02pm

re: #170 Walter L. Newton

Okay. Well, when I have time to force-feed you information, I'll find something specifically predicting billions of deaths, since apparently you can't extrapolate.

179 zephirus  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:41:13pm

re: #7 LudwigVanQuixote

The impact on the thermohaline circulation is one of the consequences of melting polar ice that concerns me the most. The average person thinks it's because we are worried about polar bears.

180 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:41:19pm

re: #164 brookly red

well actually to reference an earlier thread the notion of "shoving something down someone else's throat" is kinda a turn off to a lot of people... you don't make friends by calling people deniers.

especially when they aren't...

181 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:41:28pm

re: #176 Obdicut

Then you ought to know better.

& you are so busted, you should know to back off.

182 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:41:36pm

re: #130 Obdicut

When the name calling starts the thread just goes sour.

183 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:42:04pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

Ludwig is doing a really good job of down dinging simple and plainly understood statement by well know scientist, both connected with the IPCC and climate change and renown professors of IT subjects.

Interesting.

184 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:42:23pm

re: #181 brookly red

Whatever. I'm heading home. I think that you're someone who's concerned with national security. Watch the video I posted, and read the PDF.

185 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:42:54pm

CNN live video feed outside the shooting area:

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

186 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:42:57pm

re: #172 Obdicut

I'm not saying it's synonymous, nor am I diminishing Nazism. I'm saying that if you say "jackboot", Jews think of the Nazi jackboot. I'm Jewish. So is Ludwig. It's not a phrase to throw around lightly. It is highly associated with the Nazis.

He was not making the comparison. Assuming that he was = Boo. Just sayin'.

187 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:43:21pm

re: #170 Walter L. Newton

I've read that article, and it has been linked here a number of times. That article does not mention "billions and billions of deaths"... you even make that obvious in your quote... "3 billion people having to move or starve due to climate change."

I have not been able to find anything by peer-reviewed scientist that uses terms like "catastrophic," "devastating" or "billion and billion will die." I'm open to being guided to statement like that.

there is a fair amount of hyperbole in there...certainly hard to contest when the AGW religious freaks are screaming at you

188 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:43:22pm

re: #182 Rightwingconspirator

When the name calling starts the thread just goes sour.

Indeed.

189 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:43:46pm

re: #178 Obdicut

Okay. Well, when I have time to force-feed you information, I'll find something specifically predicting billions of deaths, since apparently you can't extrapolate.

No I can't, since the scientist at the IPCC admitted themselves that there are uncertainly issues in regards to future predictions. So I don't suspect the problem, but I do suspect certain hyperbole made without scientific evidence.

190 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:44:24pm

re: #172 Obdicut

I'm not saying it's synonymous, nor am I diminishing Nazism. I'm saying that if you say "jackboot", Jews think of the Nazi jackboot. I'm Jewish. So is Ludwig. It's not a phrase to throw around lightly. It is highly associated with the Nazis.

jackboot is an all purpose expression...give it up and quit being so soft

191 Guanxi88  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:45:06pm

re: #144 Obdicut

Jackboot implies totalitarian, specifically Nazi. It's not a phrase to toss around lightly.

I think LVQ's a big enough boy that he can handle the shock to his sensibilities.

192 Digital Display  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:45:12pm

re: #177 LudwigVanQuixote

I can't get my head around rising sea levels? Do you have a link?
I don't get the displacement of ice to liquid.. Everybody knows when ice melts in your glass it never over flows because the ice has been displaced..
How does that work Lud?

193 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:45:30pm

re: #166 zephirus

I know some folks working on the methane. They are hesitant to make any statements until they are absolutely sure about it for fear of being called chicken-littleists.

Well I know quite a few working on these things too.

At the end of the day it is absolutely clear that methane bogs are acting up as the Siberian and Canadian bogs thaw.

This is not in dispute and it is not in dispute that the process is accelerating.

Given that methane is a more effective GHG than CO2 and even low end estimates of the amount of methane potentially released, if we cross a tipping point there, which we are surely marching towards right now, then we very quickly get into the absolute worst case climate regimes.

I agree that we do not know enough yet to claim that we have crossed such a point in the bogs. I do claim that we know such a point must exist and that for certain we are marching towards it. I also claim that the effects of crossing it are utterly catastrophic.

I further claim that we are seeing massive and accelerating releases right now.

194 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:45:44pm

Shots Fired at Pentagon, at Least Two Police Injured

Two police officers were injured by a gunman firing shots outside the Pentagon tonight and a suspect was in custody, a police spokesman said.
Photo: Reports: Two police officers shot near Pentagon
An aerial view of the Pentagon in Arlington, Va. s seen in this Sept. 2003 file photo. There were reports of two police officers were shot outside the Pentagon Metro station on Thursday, March 4, 2009.

Initially, hundreds of employees at the Pentagon were ordered to go into "Code Red" -- the entire building locked down, with no one allowed to enter or leave. Later, people were allowed to leave the building through entrances other than the Metro entrance.

Pentagon police have a suspect in custody, ABC News' Steven Portnoy reported.

195 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:46:03pm

re: #185 freetoken

CNN live video feed outside the shooting area:

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

If that's a Metro station (aboveground) it's not real close to the Pentagon.

196 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:46:16pm

re: #192 HoosierHoops

I can't get my head around rising sea levels? Do you have a link?
I don't get the displacement of ice to liquid.. Everybody knows when ice melts in your glass it never over flows because the ice has been displaced..
How does that work Lud?

I believe the ice of concern sits on a land mass.

197 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:46:18pm

re: #182 Rightwingconspirator

When the name calling starts the thread just goes sour.

yup, every time....vanity and insecurity trump reason and friendliness...some people are just relentless with their domination...cheapens the entire blog imo

198 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:46:33pm

OT
I have a 4th floor view of the big teachers protest here in downtown LA. Peaceful, colorful, and sincere.

199 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:46:46pm

re: #195 Decatur Deb

If that's a Metro station (aboveground) it's not real close to the Pentagon.

There is a Metro station near the Pentagon, but it is a number of blocks away.

200 garhighway  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:46:50pm

re: #189 Walter L. Newton

No I can't, since the scientist at the IPCC admitted themselves that there are uncertainly issues in regards to future predictions. So I don't suspect the problem, but I do suspect certain hyperbole made without scientific evidence.

What level of certainty do you need to think AGW is a big enough problem that we need to address it?

Or put the other way, how much uncertainty can you tolerate?

For my money, I don't need to know the precise body count at any particular point in the future to be convinced that AGW is a very bad thing that we need to address.

201 darthstar  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:46:59pm

re: #194 Shiplord Kirel

Shots Fired at Pentagon, at Least Two Police Injured

Shooting at the Pentagon? What a fucking retard.

202 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:47:04pm

re: #181 brookly red

re: #176 Obdicut

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

203 Neutral President  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:47:06pm

re: #192 HoosierHoops

I can't get my head around rising sea levels? Do you have a link?
I don't get the displacement of ice to liquid.. Everybody knows when ice melts in your glass it never over flows because the ice has been displaced..
How does that work Lud?

Its not the arctic cap that causes this. It's the ice on land (Antarctica & Greenland) melting and flowing into the sea.

204 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:47:14pm

re: #198 Rightwingconspirator

OT
I have a 4th floor view of the big teachers protest here in downtown LA. Peaceful, colorful, and sincere.

what are they protesting?

205 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:47:18pm

re: #192 HoosierHoops

I can't get my head around rising sea levels? Do you have a link?
I don't get the displacement of ice to liquid.. Everybody knows when ice melts in your glass it never over flows because the ice has been displaced..
How does that work Lud?

i think it's the part about the ice that is aboveground, but will "r-u-n-n-o-f-t" when melted.

(fantastic movie quote included gratis. i'm that kinda guy)

206 zephirus  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:47:24pm

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

If you look at the data, you can see a dip in global CO2 emissions for a year or two after the collapse of the soviet union. Unforeseen political events are part of the problem with estimating future emission scenarios.

207 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:47:45pm

re: #196 Jeff In Ohio

I believe the ice of concern sits on a land mass.

gmta...

208 Guanxi88  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:47:47pm

re: #205 Aceofwhat?

i think it's the part about the ice that is aboveground, but will "r-u-n-n-o-f-t" when melted.

(fantastic movie quote included gratis. i'm that kinda guy)

Sea levels rising?

Damn! We're in a tight spot!

209 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:47:55pm

Two pentagon security officers shot, Pentagon on lockdown, shooting outside entrance of Pentagon metro station. 3 people injured total, one person in custody

This on the FNN scroll

210 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:48:02pm

re: #206 zephirus

If you look at the data, you can see a dip in global CO2 emissions for a year or two after the collapse of the soviet union. Unforeseen political events are part of the problem with estimating future emission scenarios.

reagan!!!

211 garhighway  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:48:07pm

re: #196 Jeff In Ohio

I believe the ice of concern sits on a land mass.

Exactly. Think Greenland or Antarctica.

212 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:48:25pm

re: #204 brookly red

Funding cuts, big ones, very deep. Not just the fat, well into the "muscle".

213 Guanxi88  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:48:27pm

re: #211 garhighway

Exactly. Think Greenland or Antarctica.

Or Wisconsin

214 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:48:28pm

re: #199 Walter L. Newton

There is a Metro station near the Pentagon, but it is a number of blocks away.

Yeah, Pentagon's is underground.

215 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:48:35pm

re: #64 freetoken

Obviously you've never been to many of the Caribbean islands, where extensive dry seasons has lead to the evolution of drought resistant orchids.

You've also evidently never been to the mountainous areas of of NW North America, one of the rainiest regions on Earth.

It was obvious from his/her opening words, nothing of value or knowledge was to follow.

216 darthstar  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:48:45pm

re: #198 Rightwingconspirator

OT
I have a 4th floor view of the big teachers protest here in downtown LA. Peaceful, colorful, and sincere.

Peaceful, colorful, and sincere are great, but they won't get you on TV...sadly.

I'm with the teachers on this, however, having been one myself.

217 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:48:49pm

re: #207 Aceofwhat?

gmta...

:)

218 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:49:11pm

re: #197 albusteve

yup, every time...vanity and insecurity trump reason and friendliness...some people are just relentless with their domination...cheapens the entire blog imo

notice a conspicuous absence? light a match and run...

219 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:49:41pm

re: #213 Guanxi88

Or Wisconsin

Or Ohio, the creek, she is rising!

220 osprey34229  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:49:57pm

Google volcano Antarctica /NY times 2008 !
Maybe it's not man after all ?

221 darthstar  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:50:14pm

re: #209 Thanos

Two pentagon security officers shot, Pentagon on lockdown, shooting outside entrance of Pentagon metro station. 3 people injured total, one person in custody

This on the FNN scroll

Aw, fuck. When I first saw the headline, I thought it was some nut shooting at the building randomly. I hope nobody's critically injured.

222 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:50:26pm

re: #200 garhighway

What level of certainty do you need to think AGW is a big enough problem that we need to address it?

Or put the other way, how much uncertainty can you tolerate?

For my money, I don't need to know the precise body count at any particular point in the future to be convinced that AGW is a very bad thing that we need to address.

so address it...recycle!....not enough people give a shit, have you noticed?....name calling and arguing the existnce of AGW is a hobby for some people....it's the friction they dig....blogs are like that....we need to do something!....like what?

223 Guanxi88  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:51:20pm

re: #216 darthstar

Peaceful, colorful, and sincere are great, but they won't get you on TV...sadly.

I'm with the teachers on this, however, having been one myself.

Solidarity forever!

224 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:51:23pm

re: #216 darthstar

This is getting some coverage, there have been protest marches nationally today.

[Link: www.scpr.org...]

225 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:51:30pm

re: #212 Rightwingconspirator

Funding cuts, big ones, very deep. Not just the fat, well into the "muscle".

well, it is the way things are going to be from now on... we done run out of money.

226 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:51:38pm

re: #209 Thanos

Two pentagon security officers shot, Pentagon on lockdown, shooting outside entrance of Pentagon metro station. 3 people injured total, one person in custody

This on the FNN scroll

Hmmm. I was thinking it was just a random shooting that happened to occur near the pentagon. I wonder what's up.

227 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:51:52pm

re: #200 garhighway

that wasn't the point - IIRC it was a question of the certainty with which we ought or ought not state projections and their uncertainties.

Walter, as I recall, is not a proponent of chillin' out and thinking we're all gonna be fine if we do nothing.

228 zephirus  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:51:54pm

re: #36 avanti

Am I correct in thinking that Europe may get colder as the earth warms due to the disruption of warming ocean currents too.

That is one hypothesis, yes, since the gulf stream current is part of the oceanic conveyor belt that transports hear poleward from the tropics.

229 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:52:11pm

re: #192 HoosierHoops

I can't get my head around rising sea levels? Do you have a link?
I don't get the displacement of ice to liquid.. Everybody knows when ice melts in your glass it never over flows because the ice has been displaced..
How does that work Lud?

Before I get you another link the important thing to remember is that the Greenland Ice sheet Antarctica and glaciers are all on land.

Also it is important to remember that as you heat a liquid, it expands.

Here is a really great paper that is very readable and that I have linked many times before.

[Link: www.pnas.org...]

As it stands now, it is not at all unreasonable to expect a sea level rise on the order of a meter by 2100. It could be much worse than that depending on nonlinear melt rates in the ice sheets (the ones on land) and exactly what does happen with the methane bogs.

230 darthstar  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:52:16pm

Gotta run...and just as the conversation was getting interesting.

Take care, all.

231 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:52:16pm

re: #212 Rightwingconspirator

Funding cuts, big ones, very deep. Not just the fat, well into the "muscle".

groovy and colorful...not into the organ cavity yet?

232 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:53:08pm
233 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:53:56pm

re: #231 albusteve

groovy and colorful...not into the organ cavity yet?

Yes do tell the good people here how you like teachers getting their funding cut.

234 garhighway  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:53:59pm

re: #222 albusteve

so address it...recycle!...not enough people give a shit, have you noticed?...name calling and arguing the existnce of AGW is a hobby for some people...it's the friction they dig...blogs are like that...we need to do something!...like what?

I entirely agree that acts of individual responsibility are called for, but I rather doubt that gets us where we need to go in terms of stabilization of CO2 levels.

235 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:54:24pm

re: #226 Killgore Trout

Hmmm. I was thinking it was just a random shooting that happened to occur near the pentagon. I wonder what's up.


let's give it 24 hrs. shall we?

236 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:55:24pm

re: #235 brookly red

I lived in DC. This stuff is pretty common.

237 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:55:26pm

re: #226 Killgore Trout

Hmmm. I was thinking it was just a random shooting that happened to occur near the pentagon. I wonder what's up.

are they gonna storm the place with grenade launchers?....
jus kidding

238 Guanxi88  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:55:36pm

re: #233 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes do tell the good people here how you like teachers getting their funding cut.

I didn't take that as the message at all. I think he was saying the description was groovy and colorful, and went on to extend the metaphor a bit.

hardly the same thing.

239 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:55:40pm

re: #234 garhighway

I entirely agree that acts of individual responsibility are called for, but I rather doubt that gets us where we need to go in terms of stabilization of CO2 levels.

Not as long as most of our electrical generation comes from burning fossil fuels.

You are absolutely right.

240 Guanxi88  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:56:03pm

re: #239 LudwigVanQuixote

Not as long as most of our electrical generation comes from burning fossil fuels.

You are absolutely right.

Nukes, baby, nukes!

241 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:56:15pm

re: #238 Guanxi88

Give him time.. these were teachers in a union :)

242 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:56:32pm

re: #233 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes do tell the good people here how you like teachers getting their funding cut.

don't make stuff up...your imagination is getting the best of you

243 Guanxi88  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:56:38pm

re: #241 LudwigVanQuixote

Give him time.. these were teachers in a union :)

So were my folks, and that's the least of the things I hold against them.

244 zephirus  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:56:47pm

re: #40 albusteve

this is not a matter of upper atmospheric wave patterns though. It is related to the fact that the thermohaline circulation is driven in part by sea ice formation at the poles. Salty, dense water is left behind when ice forms. It is denser than fresh water, and therefore sinks, driving a global scale circulation whose return flow is poleward. This poleward flow transports energy northward from the tropics.

245 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:57:00pm

re: #236 Killgore Trout

I lived in DC. This stuff is pretty common.

yup.

246 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:57:29pm

re: #132 Thanos

The thing I would say is that you cannot predict the future with any degree of certainty, but you certainly can detect and measure trends and prepare for them. The future's still going to happen no matter how much we debate it here.

I recommend Virginia's book : The Future and its Enemies

I used to like Virginia Postrel (although I can't say I'm well acquainted with her work) but besides my general distrust of libertarians lately, I saw her name on this list (scroll to bottom for the list) and distrust her even more.

247 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:57:45pm

re: #244 zephirus

So what. I have that on a t-shirt.
/

248 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:58:35pm

re: #234 garhighway

I entirely agree that acts of individual responsibility are called for, but I rather doubt that gets us where we need to go in terms of stabilization of CO2 levels.

we are not gonna solve any of it here...that's my point...call your senators and demand they allow a couple of Hyperions in your neighborhood

249 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 4:59:16pm

re: #200 garhighway

What level of certainty do you need to think AGW is a big enough problem that we need to address it?

Or put the other way, how much uncertainty can you tolerate?

For my money, I don't need to know the precise body count at any particular point in the future to be convinced that AGW is a very bad thing that we need to address.

Well, governments are going to want to have a little more certainty if they are going to place large amounts of money into stopping AGW. Scientist themselves probably would like as much certainty as they can possibly get... that would seem natural for scientist.

250 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:00:11pm

re: #233 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes do tell the good people here how you like teachers getting their funding cut.

groan

251 garhighway  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:00:45pm

re: #227 Aceofwhat?

that wasn't the point - IIRC it was a question of the certainty with which we ought or ought not state projections and their uncertainties.

Walter, as I recall, is not a proponent of chillin' out and thinking we're all gonna be fine if we do nothing.

I guess I just don't see the point of spending a lot of time arguing over whether the midpoint case is billions dead or hundreds of millions dead or tens of millions dead. In any case, it's the worst thing to happen to the planet since men were sentient, it's our fault, and it's fixable. Beyond that, we are arguing over trifles.

252 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:00:52pm

re: #241 LudwigVanQuixote

Give him time.. these were teachers in a union :)

my mom taught school for 40 years...I have nothing against teachers....quit lying, it's becoming obsessive with you

253 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:01:37pm

re: #242 albusteve

don't make stuff up...your imagination is getting the best of you

Do I need to repost your rants from just two nights ago? This trend of the people denying the words they themselves wrote truly intrigues me.

254 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:01:48pm

re: #198 Rightwingconspirator

I mentioned this on the last thread.

Teachers in a suburb of Roanoke (where I live) have agreed to take pay-cuts... to save the jobs of other teachers.

Pretty cool, that.

255 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:02:03pm

To get straight to the heart of this issue: It is unfortunate but scarcely surprising that lefties attempt to exploit AGW to advance their agenda. It does not alter the facts. After all, the left got a lot of mileage out of Nazi atrocities and the humanitarian abuses of 19th century capitalism, but those things were no less real for that.

256 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:02:16pm

The thing I would say is that you cannot predict the future with any degree of certainty,

if you say that Thanos, you are a troll...be careful

257 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:04:11pm

re: #255 Shiplord Kirel

To get straight to the heart of this issue: It is unfortunate but scarcely surprising that lefties attempt to exploit AGW to advance their agenda. It does not alter the facts. After all, the left got a lot of mileage out of Nazi atrocities and the humanitarian abuses of 19th century capitalism, but those things were no less real for that.

I have nothing to add... just want to see that re-posted.

258 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:04:19pm

re: #251 garhighway

I guess I just don't see the point of spending a lot of time arguing over whether the midpoint case is billions dead or hundreds of millions dead or tens of millions dead. In any case, it's the worst thing to happen to the planet since men were sentient, it's our fault, and it's fixable. Beyond that, we are arguing over trifles.

ha! Let me channel "Office Space"...

what else...would ya say...you 'do here'?

259 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:04:22pm

re: #251 garhighway

I guess I just don't see the point of spending a lot of time arguing over whether the midpoint case is billions dead or hundreds of millions dead or tens of millions dead. In any case, it's the worst thing to happen to the planet since men were sentient, it's our fault, and it's fixable. Beyond that, we are arguing over trifles.

Those comments from the IPCC scientist that I linked to about the uncertainties of future predictions was in regards to the actual results of warming, not whether there will be warming. That's a given. But how we react and what we do, fist, next last, is dependent on getting the most defined looks at the future that we can.

It's called planning.

260 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:04:29pm

re: #253 LudwigVanQuixote

Do I need to repost your rants from just two nights ago? This trend of the people denying the words they themselves wrote truly intrigues me.

yes, repost them....should be interesting for all the others here, I'm sure....but hurry up, I'm making dinner and swiftly losing interest in you fantastic ability to make stuff up...I raised two kids, are you a father by any chance?

261 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:05:28pm

re: #260 albusteve

yes, repost them...should be interesting for all the others here, I'm sure...but hurry up, I'm making dinner and swiftly losing interest in you fantastic ability to make stuff up...I raised two kids, are you a father by any chance?

anything you have to say I would like to read again.

262 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:06:06pm

re: #255 Shiplord Kirel

To get straight to the heart of this issue: It is unfortunate but scarcely surprising that lefties attempt to exploit AGW to advance their agenda. It does not alter the facts. After all, the left got a lot of mileage out of Nazi atrocities and the humanitarian abuses of 19th century capitalism, but those things were no less real for that.

and don't forget the creationists hitching their pony to the issue

263 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:06:21pm

re: #261 brookly red

anything you have to say I would like to read again.

funniest damn thing ever said to Albusteve. ever.

264 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:07:10pm

re: #263 Aceofwhat?

funniest damn thing ever said to Albusteve. ever.

well I did mean it...

265 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:07:34pm

re: #261 brookly red

anything you have to say I would like to read again.

glossies!
$10.95
call my office

266 Guanxi88  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:07:40pm

re: #254 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I mentioned this on the last thread.

Teachers in a suburb of Roanoke (where I live) have agreed to take pay-cuts... to save the jobs of other teachers.

Pretty cool, that.

Damn! That's taking one for the team.

267 Guanxi88  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:08:53pm

(And everybody stops to catch their breath before the next round)

268 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:09:10pm

re: #256 albusteve

The thing I would say is that you cannot predict the future with any degree of certainty,

if you say that Thanos, you are a troll...be careful

It is a stupid thing to say. Given a specific set of circumstances, such as a narcoleptic who likes to walk alone on train tracks, or a short sighted population pumping giga-tons of CO2 into an atmosphere, an intelligent person can predict future trends with a very high degree of certainty.

269 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:09:30pm

re: #103 Thanos

If you didn't catch the meaning of the old Russian Imperial Eagle on their Olympic outfits, I sure did. .

Groan and mutter.

Years ago, when I was a history major, I took a summer school class on architecture at San Francisco State. (Home of the Raving Anti-Semites, 'scuse me, the Golden Gators.)

The professor was a dork. I especially enjoyed his confusion over Nazi architecture..."At a time when interior, private spaces are being emphasized, we see all these public stadiums and squares. It's confusing..."

Anyway, one slide he showed was meant to show the wide range of inspiration in architecture in the 30s. The Soviet and German pavilions for the, I think, 1939 World Fair. One one side, modernist-architecture from hell, with a screaming eagle. One the other, a German copy of a Roman copy of a Greek temple. Over the doors--an eagle, wings spread.

"Isn't the conjunction of such different styles amazing?" the professor asked. And all I could think was, "Dude, that's not a conjunction, that's the prediction..."

270 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:09:35pm

re: #265 albusteve

glossies!
$10.95
call my office

I did call your office & some fed answered... she said you were in a meeting, but I can spot em...

271 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:09:50pm

Are TA's unionized in the US?

272 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:10:36pm

re: #110 Shiplord Kirel

The Younger Dryas Event was an intensely cold but brief period (@1300 years) that followed a warming period about 13000 years ago (ie, practically yesterday in geological terms). It is interesting mainly for its abrupt onset. Evidence strongly suggests that the transition from warm to near ice age conditions occurred in less than a decade, possibly in as little as two years.

I imagine that an intensely cold 1300 years seems longer while it's going on around you. Just a guess.

273 Guanxi88  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:10:37pm

re: #271 Spare O'Lake

Are TA's unionized in the US?

I recall some were trying that in the ivies some years ago, but don't recall what became of it.

274 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:10:39pm

re: #271 Spare O'Lake

Are TA's unionized in the US?

/be patient comrade, be patient.

275 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:11:38pm

re: #268 goddamnedfrank

It is a stupid thing to say. Given a specific set of circumstances, such as a narcoleptic who likes to walk alone on train tracks, or a short sighted population pumping giga-tons of CO2 into an atmosphere, an intelligent person can predict future trends with a very high degree of certainty.

so are we trolls or not?...that's the issue

276 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:12:16pm

re: #267 Guanxi88

(And everybody stops to catch their breath before the next round)

while Lud furiously cherry picks my posts....haha!

277 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:12:26pm

re: #268 goddamnedfrank

It is a stupid thing to say. Given a specific set of circumstances, such as a narcoleptic who likes to walk alone on train tracks, or a short sighted population pumping giga-tons of CO2 into an atmosphere, an intelligent person can predict future trends with a very high degree of certainty.

que? the certainty depends on error propagation.

278 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:13:07pm

re: #270 brookly red

I did call your office & some fed answered... she said you were in a meeting, but I can spot em...

interrogation with the IRS....again

279 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:14:08pm

re: #271 Spare O'Lake

Are TA's unionized in the US?

TA's?...what do you mean?

280 Guanxi88  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:14:09pm

re: #278 albusteve

interrogation with the IRS...again

I told ya, your cpa told, the folk at H&R block told ya:

You can't claim the folk buried in the crawlspace as dependents

281 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:14:51pm

re: #192 HoosierHoops

Hi Hoops!

Got your email. Thanks! Will reply later. Heat's not working in my house right now, and my fingers and toes are froze.

282 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:14:54pm

re: #278 albusteve

interrogation with the IRS...again

Dealing with them now. Idiots lost my returns from 3-5 years ago, and that particular hard drive is gone.

It's ending as well as it can, given the circumstances.

283 osprey34229  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:15:28pm

re: #220 osprey34229

Google volcano Antarctica /NY times 2008 !
Maybe it's not man after all ?

Come on you down dingers what is wrong with the
NY Times article ?

284 lawhawk  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:15:34pm

Late to the party here, but I'm curious about the part about the methane seeping from the Arctic seafloor. Is that considered a result of rising COx levels in the ocean, or a separate and distinct phenomenon?

If it's separate and distinct, watch for the AGW deniers to latch onto to that like remoras since methane is considered a greenhouse gas.

In other words, is this a causative or correlative relationship between sea temps and/or COx levels and methane levels rising/seeping from the seafloor..

285 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:16:37pm

re: #260 albusteve

yes, repost them...should be interesting for all the others here, I'm sure...but hurry up, I'm making dinner and swiftly losing interest in you fantastic ability to make stuff up...I raised two kids, are you a father by any chance?

Well if you must challenge me, very well...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

of course it's not the 'fault' of the unions...the fault lies with the voters that elect people that cut the deals that bankrupt the state...and sinse the voters are too stupid for their own good, the other parties tap the tax money for their benefit...you don't really think the CAEA gives a fuck about ABCs do you?...the lure of billions to be pocketed trumps
education

And my favs... By the way folks you can see a lot of his rants on this thread, I admit to cherrypicking a little in that there are so many to choose from...

a Nobel means shit to me, or to incoming freshman...and who hires the coaches?...it's a scam and you know it...if you don't, you're still an idiot...I'll bet you'd love teaching at some college...are you a wannabe prof or haven't you made it that far yet?

followed by

my general practice doctor just quit the clinic he worked for to take a teaching job at the University of NM Hospital...he will knock down over a quarter million teaching two classes per semester for two years...haha! yeeehaaa!...12 classes in two years!...on taxpayer money!

followed by my absolute favs:

Nobel prizes are a concern for students?...seriously?...who gets paid the most money on the prof staff?...intellectualism has replaced common sense

AND:

give me an ordinary teacher at the local CC any day...PhDs mean nothing in the classroom or anywhere else for that matter...you have an inflated sense of importance in the real world...now I'm out

Yes, I am the one lying when I claim Stevo is anti-education :)

286 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:16:45pm

re: #280 Guanxi88

I told ya, your cpa told, the folk at H&R block told ya:

You can't claim the folk buried in the crawlspace as dependents

no harm in trying is there?....there was this thing on page 1,682

287 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:17:02pm

re: #284 lawhawk

updinged for remoras analogy in sea floor discussion.

God, i'm a nerd.

288 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:17:31pm

re: #279 albusteve

TA's?...what do you mean?

Don't get excited, you dirty guy, I said TA's, not T&A's.
Teaching Assistants (TA's) are usually graduate students who teach college tutorials.

289 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:17:50pm

re: #282 Aceofwhat?

Dealing with them now. Idiots lost my returns from 3-5 years ago, and that particular hard drive is gone.

It's ending as well as it can, given the circumstances.

yup, they demand info that you already legally filed with them....been there

290 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:18:10pm

re: #276 albusteve

while Lud furiously cherry picks my posts...haha!

No actually I posted them in full baby. My claim is that you are an abusive anti-education troll who lies about hating education. Your words speak for themselves really.

You really should not have challenged me. Stupid folks like you seem to think that the rest of the world has no memory at all, and dude you posted this shit just two days ago. I could find more if I went back further.

291 garhighway  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:18:18pm

re: #259 Walter L. Newton

Those comments from the IPCC scientist that I linked to about the uncertainties of future predictions was in regards to the actual results of warming, not whether there will be warming. That's a given. But how we react and what we do, fist, next last, is dependent on getting the most defined looks at the future that we can.

It's called planning.

I guess it depends if you are talking about reacting to specific effects (rising sea levels, for example) or attacking the cause. I haven't seen anyone here talk about spending any real money to build dikes and the like. Instead, it's about attacking the cause. And for that, asking for precision about actual results seems beside the point. It is the kind of argument one advances when what they really want to do is nothing. Because if you are successful in demanding precision before action, you automatically get a a couple of decades of delay.

For the money behind the deniers, that's a great result: 80 quarters where earnings remain undiminished by the costs of abatement.

Likewise those that argue "well, there will be some positive side effects, won't there?" seem to be implicitly supporting the "do nothing" camp, by implying that the as-yet-unknown positive side effects of AGW make abatement a waste of time.

292 Charles Johnson  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:18:36pm

Here's some more information about the very scary methane releases in the Arctic Ocean: As Arctic Ocean warms, megatonnes of methane bubble up.

It's been predicted for years, and now it's happening. Deep in the Arctic Ocean, water warmed by climate change is forcing the release of methane from beneath the sea floor.

Over 250 plumes of gas have been discovered bubbling up from the sea floor to the west of the Svalbard archipelago, which lies north of Norway. The bubbles are mostly methane, which is a greenhouse gas much more powerful than carbon dioxide.

The methane is probably coming from reserves of methane hydrate beneath the sea bed. These hydrates, also known as clathrates, are water ice with methane molecules embedded in them.

The methane plumes were discovered by an expedition aboard the research ship James Clark Ross, led by Graham Westbrook of the University of Birmingham and Tim Minshull of the National Oceanography Centre, Southampton, both in the UK.

293 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:18:40pm

re: #285 LudwigVanQuixote

that was surprisingly lame.

294 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:18:53pm

You know something just occurred to me, well actually I have been thinking about it for a long time... OK so we have all these statistic on AGW to declare the debate over, but yet we have all these statistics on National healthcare from around the world too. I declare the debate over. It sucks.

295 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:19:02pm

re: #268 goddamnedfrank

It is a stupid thing to say. Given a specific set of circumstances, such as a narcoleptic who likes to walk alone on train tracks, or a short sighted population pumping giga-tons of CO2 into an atmosphere, an intelligent person can predict future trends with a very high degree of certainty.

This is an excellent post.

296 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:19:03pm

Damn, sun going down. Nice weather here today so I've been working in the garden. I hate to come inside. Maybe I should invest in some night vision gardening goggles.

297 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:19:13pm

re: #288 Spare O'Lake

Don't get excited, you dirty guy, I said TA's, not T&A's.
Teaching Assistants (TA's) are usually graduate students who teach college tutorials.

who cares?...are they naked?...seriously I didn't know, and I don't have the answer to that...my guess would be no

298 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:20:23pm

re: #293 Aceofwhat?

that was surprisingly lame.

What are you talking about, duder berated me for post after post and challenged me that I was lying when I asserted he is anti-education and anti teachers unions.

You see, I always bring facts. People ought not challenge me on them when they know they are lying.

299 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:20:46pm

re: #284 lawhawk

It would be from the temperature rises at shallow depths/near surface.

The methane-hydrates remain solid on below a certain temperature/pressure point. See critical point.

The other phenomenon at high latitudes is the increase of biological activity (by bacteria, for example) upon non-degraded living matter, that was kept frozen/cool enough before, but now is warm enough to allow the bacteria to work (and reproduce) much faster. This will lead to both more CO2 and methane produced by this path.

300 Digital Display  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:20:56pm

re: #296 Killgore Trout

Damn, sun going down. Nice weather here today so I've been working in the garden. I hate to come inside. Maybe I should invest in some night vision gardening goggles.

2 cups of Starbucks we'll have you outside with a flashlight gardening at night.

301 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:21:17pm

re: #294 brookly red

You know something just occurred to me, well actually I have been thinking about it for a long time... OK so we have all these statistic on AGW to declare the debate over, but yet we have all these statistics on National healthcare from around the world too. I declare the debate over. It sucks.

I question your ability to properly interpret the statistics. Many countries with national healthcare pay less per person and have people who on average get better care than we do.

302 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:21:23pm

Kids are so cute....
Friction over young photography whiz's art

The elders at Ecclesia Church were expecting something tame from Jackson Potts II for their annual Stations of the Cross art display.

Instead, the 10-year-old produced a photo of his kid brother being beaten by a police officer. Jackson says it's a modern-day interpretation of Roman soldiers beating Jesus.

It's disturbing and could frighten children, argue church elders, who declined to display it in the church's art gallery alongside the work of other artists depicting the remaining 14 stations (the 15th depicts Christ's resurrection).


With pic.

303 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:21:25pm

re: #289 albusteve

yup, they demand info that you already legally filed with them...been there

it's been a decent amount of work, but i'm now receiving checks that i've already received once before for my troubles.

sorry friends - i know i'm taking more than my fair share of your tax money. i told them i was double dipping (actually, i was intensely sarcastic about it...they don't appreciate that, for some reason) but after a while you just shut up and take the refund checks a second time.

it's the Aceofwhat stimulus...

304 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:22:05pm

re: #292 Charles

Here's some more information about the very scary methane releases in the Arctic Ocean: As Arctic Ocean warms, megatonnes of methane bubble up.

Yeah it is nearly impossible to overstate how terrible a threat this actually is.

If even low end estimates of what is available to be released get released, we seriously are looking at all the the worst case scenarios. All the scenarios that people here like to call fringe become the most likely ones.

305 osprey34229  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:22:18pm

re: #292 Charles

Here's some more information about the very scary methane releases in the Arctic Ocean: As Arctic Ocean warms, megatonnes of methane bubble up.

Yes methane see my 220!!

306 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:23:00pm

re: #292 Charles

Here's some more information about the very scary methane releases in the Arctic Ocean: As Arctic Ocean warms, megatonnes of methane bubble up.

Though oceanic methane release is another issue that is separate from the bogs. It is yet another really bad feedback.

307 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:23:05pm

re: #298 LudwigVanQuixote

What are you talking about, duder berated me for post after post and challenged me that I was lying when I asserted he is anti-education and anti teachers unions.

You see, I always bring facts. People ought not challenge me on them when they know they are lying.

lame. it's no surprise people think the Nobel prize is a handful of poo. the peace prize shenanigans are just that...shenanigans.

308 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:23:10pm

re: #290 LudwigVanQuixote

No actually I posted them in full baby. My claim is that you are an abusive anti-education troll who lies about hating education. Your words speak for themselves really.

You really should not have challenged me. Stupid folks like you seem to think that the rest of the world has no memory at all, and dude you posted this shit just two days ago. I could find more if I went back further.

intellectualism is over rated, that stuff?....you are really reaching...I have three college degrees and hardly hate education....that's laughable...why do you call me names?...can't you make even one post without expressing your insecurities...just because I don't give a shit about your PhD doesn't mean I don't like you...lighten up

309 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:23:12pm

re: #301 jamesfirecat

I question your ability to properly interpret the statistics. Many countries with national healthcare pay less per person and have people who on average get better care than we do.

No that is the deal I offer. I will go along with AGW & you ditch commie care... that is as bi-partisan as it gets. Take it or leave it.

310 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:23:34pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

Kids are so cute...
Friction over young photography whiz's art


With pic.

Well.

311 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:23:48pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

Kids are so cute...
Friction over young photography whiz's art


With pic.

Disturbing.

312 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:23:53pm

re: #293 Aceofwhat?

that was surprisingly lame.

I'm crushed...what a bummer

313 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:24:05pm

re: #301 jamesfirecat

I question your ability to properly interpret the statistics. Many countries with national healthcare pay less per person and have people who on average get better care than we do.

Atlantis?

314 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:24:38pm

re: #275 albusteve

so are we trolls or not?...that's the issue

Yes of course you are. Well Walter is more of a denier. You are simply abusive.

315 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:25:04pm

I have to step out Lud...don't freak out for a few minutes

316 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:25:06pm

hey garhighway, downding this.

317 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:25:27pm

re: #309 brookly red

No that is the deal I offer. I will go along with AGW & you ditch commie care... that is as bi-partisan as it gets. Take it or leave it.

So in other words we stop arguing for an argument that we have the statistics to say works... and you'll stop arguing against an argument that we have the statistics to say works....

How about you get to keep denying global warming but embrace government run healthcare instead?

318 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:25:44pm

re: #297 albusteve

who cares?...are they naked?...seriously I didn't know, and I don't have the answer to that...my guess would be no

Well I was just watching these mobs of organized student protests on CNN, and I just wondered who organized them.

319 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:25:48pm

re: #312 albusteve

I'm crushed...what a bummer

right? and especially after Brookly's set-up...anticlimactic...

320 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:25:48pm

re: #304 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah it is nearly impossible to overstate how terrible a threat this actually is.

If even low end estimates of what is available to be released get released, we seriously are looking at all the the worst case scenarios. All the scenarios that people here like to call fringe become the most likely ones.

Any conceivable economic capture and exploitation?

321 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:26:05pm

re: #308 albusteve

intellectualism is over rated, that stuff?...you are really reaching...I have three college degrees and hardly hate education...that's laughable...why do you call me names?...can't you make even one post without expressing your insecurities...just because I don't give a shit about your PhD doesn't mean I don't like you...lighten up

Uhh duder the posts of yours speak very clearly for themselves. This stated with discussing how you hate teachers unions. Since you are thrilled to type about how much you hate both teachers unions and higher education quite vociferously, why the furious backpedaling now?

322 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:26:16pm

re: #314 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes of course you are. Well Walter is more of a denier. You are simply abusive.

I dub thee KettleVanQuixote

323 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:26:35pm

re: #317 jamesfirecat

So in other words we stop arguing for an argument that we have the statistics to say works... and you'll stop arguing against an argument that we have the statistics to say works...

How about you get to keep denying global warming but embrace government run healthcare instead?

see you are a whore after all :)

324 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:26:36pm

re: #315 albusteve

I have to step out Lud...don't freak out for a few minutes

The only one who lost his shit here is you baby babe.

325 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:26:45pm

re: #285 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, I am the one lying when I claim Stevo is anti-education :)

I'd say he's just anti-intellectual, but that's still not good.

326 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:26:49pm

re: #314 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes of course you are. Well Walter is more of a denier. You are simply abusive.

If I give you $5 will you never post to Walter or Steve again?

If not $5, then how much? Because I am seriously considering taking up a collection.

327 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:27:08pm

re: #322 Aceofwhat?

I dub thee KettleVanQuixote

Ohh I am certainly abusive of trolls and deniers, you have me there. Stevie though is just abusive.

328 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:27:12pm

re: #314 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes of course you are. Well Walter is more of a denier. You are simply abusive.

Lier.

Does this sound like a denier... (my comment from up thread)...

"Those comments from the IPCC scientist that I linked to about the uncertainties of future predictions was in regards to the actual results of warming, not whether there will be warming. That's a given. But how we react and what we do, fist, next last, is dependent on getting the most defined looks at the future that we can. It's called planning."

Or is a denier anyone who doesn't agree 100 percent with you?

329 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:27:16pm

re: #310 SanFranciscoZionist

I somehow doubt it was a Catholic outlet. They're not squeamish. The German Catholics have some brutal crucifixes.

330 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:27:28pm

re: #321 LudwigVanQuixote

Uhh duder the posts of yours speak very clearly for themselves. This stated with discussing how you hate teachers unions. Since you are thrilled to type about how much you hate both teachers unions and higher education quite vociferously, why the furious backpedaling now?

My friend who teaches HS in inner city Detroit hates teachers' unions too. What does that have to do with being pro- or anti-education again?

pray tell...

331 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:27:40pm

re: #313 Aceofwhat?

Atlantis?

re: #313 Aceofwhat?

Atlantis?

Try the UK.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Spending about a third as much as we do and living longer on average....

332 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:27:46pm

re: #314 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes of course you are. Well Walter is more of a denier. You are simply abusive.

I don't even bother to cook kittens, I just eat them raw...but I will be as 'abusive' as you are if that's the way it is...I said nobody can predict the future and for that you call me an ignorant troll....hahaha!...that's abusive

333 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:27:52pm

re: #326 Racer X

If I give you $5 will you never post to Walter or Steve again?

If not $5, then how much? Because I am seriously considering taking up a collection.

X did you notice how this thread was him insulting me for well about ten posts and then all I have done is catch him in a lie? Well several?

334 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:28:39pm

re: #333 LudwigVanQuixote

X did you notice how this thread was him insulting me for well about ten posts and then all I have done is catch him in a lie? Well several?

Where was I insulting you?

335 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:28:40pm

re: #323 brookly red

see you are a whore after all :)

Never said I wasn't.

You just don't want to know how much it would cost to make me a teabagger.

336 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:28:40pm

re: #317 jamesfirecat

So in other words we stop arguing for an argument that we have the statistics to say works... and you'll stop arguing against an argument that we have the statistics to say works...

How about you get to keep denying global warming but embrace government run healthcare instead?

you have heretofore unseen statistics about govt-run healthcare???

337 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:29:00pm

re: #333 LudwigVanQuixote

What is your price?

338 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:29:59pm

re: #327 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh I am certainly abusive of trolls and deniers, you have me there. Stevie though is just abusive.

He doesn't like AGW scientists or any other sort of 'busybody'. He's the sort who moved west because he wants to not be controlled on by big government.

339 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:30:01pm

re: #336 Aceofwhat?

you have heretofore unseen statistics about govt-run healthcare???

Maybe unseen to you....

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

If that doesn't suggest those other countries might be doing something right, what kind of statistics would you like to see?

340 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:30:03pm

re: #335 jamesfirecat

Never said I wasn't.

You just don't want to know how much it would cost to make me a teabagger.

/frankly Scarlett I don't give a damn.

341 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:30:30pm

re: #327 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh I am certainly abusive of trolls and deniers, you have me there. Stevie though is just abusive.

Well...ok...i respect the self-recognition...now about the mile-wide definitions of trolls and deniers...

342 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:30:48pm

re: #332 albusteve

I don't even bother to cook kittens, I just eat them raw...but I will be as 'abusive' as you are if that's the way it is...I said nobody can predict the future and for that you call me an ignorant troll...hahaha!...that's abusive

Duder you've been melting all night really.

It is amusing.

What you poor little trollies seem to miss is that you all are funny with your games.

Somewhere the other night I asked myself, what prompts a 50 year old man or there abouts to write furious abuse on a weblog and then lie about it? Why would he care to lie about science so much?

And it occurred to me just how silly you fellows are. I have no need of anger at you really anymore, you all are seriously just not worth it. But I will take cruel pleasure in catching you in your lies and showing you for the fools you are.

343 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:31:00pm

re: #333 LudwigVanQuixote

X did you notice how this thread was him insulting me for well about ten posts and then all I have done is catch him in a lie? Well several?

Yea there a few people around here like that... they can say WHATEVER they want and never seem to be responsible for the ensuing fallout. albusteve is THE epitome of a troll. He is not interested in anything other than a reaction and his own personal amusement. He'll say just about anything to satisfy those needs.

So yes, it's completely your fault for continuing to try to talk sensibly and logically to a troll as you are insulted over and over again. They've got nothing to do with it and are completely without blame.

344 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:31:11pm

re: #334 Walter L. Newton

Where was I insulting you?

Walter, every post of yours insults the intelligence.

345 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:31:36pm

re: #343 Locker

Yea there a few people around here like that... they can say WHATEVER they want and never seem to be responsible for the ensuing fallout. albusteve is THE epitome of a troll. He is not interested in anything other than a reaction and his own personal amusement. He'll say just about anything to satisfy those needs.

So yes, it's completely your fault for continuing to try to talk sensibly and logically to a troll as you are insulted over and over again. They've got nothing to do with it and are completely without blame.

Thanks mate!

346 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:31:47pm

re: #344 LudwigVanQuixote

Walter, every post of yours insults the intelligence.

Was just asking for a clarification?

347 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:32:11pm

re: #344 LudwigVanQuixote

Walter, every post of yours insults the intelligence.

Then are you saying that I'm not insulting to you?

348 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:32:18pm

re: #344 LudwigVanQuixote

Walter, every post of yours insults the intelligence.


Well he did seem to like Valve games. Can't be all bad.

349 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:32:36pm

re: #338 Dark_Falcon

He doesn't like AGW scientists or any other sort of 'busybody'. He's the sort who moved west because he wants to not be controlled on by big government.

Yeah this board is littered with his endless rants on such things. It takes a special kind of self denial to deny his own rants which were written with such furious urgency.

350 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:32:40pm

re: #321 LudwigVanQuixote

Uhh duder the posts of yours speak very clearly for themselves. This stated with discussing how you hate teachers unions. Since you are thrilled to type about how much you hate both teachers unions and higher education quite vociferously, why the furious backpedaling now?

I'm not backpeddling...you want me to, but I'm not...unions and teachers are two separate entities...if you can grasp string theory, you should be able to make that distinction...you don't impress me and it pisses you of...you should have taken some abnormal psych classes along the way, then it would be clear how your blog behavior toward others simply represents some turmoil you suffer from...jolly up bro....life is too short

351 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:32:50pm

re: #344 LudwigVanQuixote

Walter, every post of yours insults the intelligence.

That's not true, and you know it.

352 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:33:28pm

re: #347 Walter L. Newton

Then are you saying that I'm not insulting to you?

You see Walter again lame man, you really need to learn how to come up with a better come back. Sorry to east german judge you but that was barely a 2.

353 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:33:30pm

re: #1 Obdicut

Well, it's good thing we already devastated the fishing stocks, because saltier water is going to devastate the fishing stocks.

Methane escaping more quickly is a nightmare scenario, too. Fuck.

Yeah, I remember what happened long ago when I held a match to those bubbles coming up from the bottom of the bath water. Some arctic researcher on an ice floe is going to light a cigarette at the wrong time and poof, we are all toast.

354 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:33:58pm

re: #331 jamesfirecat

Try the UK.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Spending about a third as much as we do and living longer on average...

Oh, sure, they're having an easy time affording it.

(ps - people tend to fly west for life-saving stuff...not the other way 'round)

355 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:34:55pm

Bullets for Jesus?

Alleged smuggler wraps ammo in Bibles

An American evangelist was caught in Kenya allegedly trying to bring Bibles hiding 150 live bullets destined for Juba, Southern Sudan, authorities said.

356 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:35:11pm

re: #351 Dark_Falcon

That's not true, and you know it.

Ok fine. I will grant that.

Every post of his about AGW or science insults the intelligence and certainly every time he plays one of his insipid word games or goes semantic it insults the intelligence. Now that is what? Half of his posts to 90% of them depending on the day?

357 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:35:17pm

re: #354 Aceofwhat?

Oh, sure, they're having an easy time affording it.

(ps - people tend to fly west for life-saving stuff...not the other way 'round)

Yes America has the best Healthcare out there, if you're rich enough to pay for it.

Notice how the people who are flying west (or south from Canada) are all the prime minister of this and the 5th Earl of that rather than Jack Six bag of tea?

358 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:35:58pm

re: #348 Locker

Well he did seem to like Valve games. Can't be all bad.

No... I said I didn't even know what Valve games were... but other than that, I passed no judgement on Valve games positive or negative.

359 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:36:10pm

It's hard to take a scientist seriously when he constantly bickers like a 3 year old.

360 garhighway  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:36:46pm

re: #354 Aceofwhat?

Oh, sure, they're having an easy time affording it.

Doesn't "spending a third of what we do" imply that their health care is more affordable than ours?

361 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:37:12pm

re: #352 LudwigVanQuixote

You see Walter again lame man, you really need to learn how to come up with a better come back. Sorry to east german judge you but that was barely a 2.

You don't want to see a 10 from Walter. That's when he makes up a monologue that casts you as a villain. He's actually quite excellent with play-writing.

362 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:37:32pm

re: #351 Dark_Falcon

That's not true, and you know it.

Thanks for that. I would be nice to get through any thread without the insults, but, that said, I really do try not to insult back, and the constant sassy statement about me and to me really don't affect me at all. I'm a big boy.

363 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:37:33pm

re: #344 LudwigVanQuixote

Walter, every post of yours insults the intelligence.

Go to your room.

364 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:37:42pm

re: #355 freetoken

Bullets for Jesus?

Alleged smuggler wraps ammo in Bibles

That's either a very old story resurfacing, or it's not the first time. I'm remembering a case involving a strange kind of hunting ammo.

365 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:37:42pm

re: #358 Walter L. Newton

No... I said I didn't even know what Valve games were... but other than that, I passed no judgement on Valve games positive or negative.

Oh I thought I saw you commenting on some lost content in the last thread. Well, if you haven't tried any of them I would, as a long time gamer, recommend them if you enjoy that sort of thing. Very high quality, engaging environments and story, etc.

366 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:37:46pm

Supper...

367 prairiefire  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:38:15pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

Wow, such extreme expression at such a young age. Amazing. Another Maplethorpe?

368 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:38:21pm

re: #339 jamesfirecat

Maybe unseen to you...

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

If that doesn't suggest those other countries might be doing something right, what kind of statistics would you like to see?

do we have more heart disease than the UK, per million people?

369 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:38:22pm

re: #365 Locker

Oh I thought I saw you commenting on some lost content in the last thread. Well, if you haven't tried any of them I would, as a long time gamer, recommend them if you enjoy that sort of thing. Very high quality, engaging environments and story, etc.

No.. not much of a gamer, although I do have the "engine" for portal on my machine.

Now to supper.

370 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:38:38pm

re: #349 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah this board is littered with his endless rants on such things. It takes a special kind of self denial to deny his own rants which were written with such furious urgency.

man Lud....you are really off the deep end here...I'm not a denier, a hater, or am I melting...I don't rant either, that's a surprising accusation considering your own redundant, long, windy posts...get a grip dude...Walter or I or anybody else don't hate you...I'd share my steamed cauliflower with you anyday

371 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:39:03pm

re: #364 Decatur Deb

There have been allegations that Evangelicals have been active in the various Sudan wars, on more than just the medical/humanitarian type of mission.

372 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:39:26pm

re: #356 LudwigVanQuixote

Ok fine. I will grant that.

Every post of his about AGW or science insults the intelligence and certainly every time he plays one of his insipid word games or goes semantic it insults the intelligence. Now that is what? Half of his posts to 90% of them depending on the day?

It depends on if you're around. I agree with you on AGW, but Walter has not been trolling, IMO. He's tried to make counter-arguments, and your counters to those have won the day. But he is still within the bounds of reason and decency.

373 lawhawk  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:39:42pm

Hmmm... the sight that will make a Yankee fans and BoSox fans cry - albeit for different reasons.

They really are taking down the old Yankee Stadium... *sigh*

374 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:39:44pm

re: #355 freetoken

Bullets for Jesus?

Alleged smuggler wraps ammo in Bibles

Maybe they were just for a wedding celebration??

375 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:39:46pm

re: #343 Locker

Yea there a few people around here like that... they can say WHATEVER they want and never seem to be responsible for the ensuing fallout. albusteve is THE epitome of a troll. He is not interested in anything other than a reaction and his own personal amusement. He'll say just about anything to satisfy those needs.

So yes, it's completely your fault for continuing to try to talk sensibly and logically to a troll as you are insulted over and over again. They've got nothing to do with it and are completely without blame.

who's trolling?...go upthread and come back with the troll posts

376 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:39:58pm

re: #364 Decatur Deb

Two different missionaries--older one was Russia.

377 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:40:14pm

re: #343 Locker

yep. he's insulted a lot. good thing he's never insulting!

378 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:40:26pm

re: #359 Racer X

It's hard to take a scientist seriously when he constantly bickers like a 3 year old.

X you are really being an asshole with that. Did you notice one attack after another and now you have to impugn my science? I have been restrained but you have heartedly learned a fuck you for that.

379 Uninformed Opinion  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:41:05pm

re: #354 Aceofwhat?

Oh, sure, they're having an easy time affording it.

(ps - people tend to fly west for life-saving stuff...not the other way 'round)

try sweden
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

380 garhighway  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:41:55pm

re: #368 Aceofwhat?

do we have more heart disease than the UK, per million people?

Is the incidence of heart disease a meaningful measure of the effectiveness of the health care system? I thought that one's likelihood of getting heart disease had to do with diet, lifestyle and genetics.

381 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:42:38pm

re: #375 albusteve

who's trolling?...go upthread and come back with the troll posts

well if you are trolling you been doing it for years & a lot of peeps seem to be on board... if it ain't broke don't fix it.

382 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:42:38pm

re: #373 lawhawk

Hmmm... the sight that will make a Yankee fans and BoSox fans cry - albeit for different reasons.

They really are taking down the old Yankee Stadium... *sigh*

Yea it's kind of harsh. I remember walking in the first time and it felt like... hmm well I guess it must be like for a Catholic to walk into the Vatican. It felt like a religious experience.

383 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:42:47pm

re: #378 LudwigVanQuixote

X you are really being an asshole with that. Did you notice one attack after another and now you have to impugn my science? I have been restrained but you have heartedly learned a fuck you for that.

yikes!....

384 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:43:54pm

I'm going to step back for a bit and wait for a new thread. I've learned I can't break up these fights once they've gotten rolling so I'm just going to wait this one out.

385 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:43:59pm

re: #377 Aceofwhat?

yep. he's insulted a lot. good thing he's never insulting!

I'm not debating that one but it's hard to ignore that only one side of an arguing party seems to catch flack on a regular basis.

386 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:43:59pm

re: #378 LudwigVanQuixote

X you are really being an asshole with that. Did you notice one attack after another and now you have to impugn my science? I have been restrained but you have heartedly learned a fuck you for that.

MY science? did you really just say that?

387 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:44:05pm

re: #382 Locker

Yea it's kind of harsh. I remember walking in the first time and it felt like... hmm well I guess it must be like for a Catholic to walk into the Vatican. It felt like a religious experience.

The first time I walked into St. Peter's I thought "Shit, you could hangar a blimp in here".

388 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:45:29pm

re: #384 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to step back for a bit and wait for a new thread. I've learned I can't break up these fights once they've gotten rolling so I'm just going to wait this one out.

I hear you.

389 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:45:54pm

re: #365 Locker

Ok so not being a Catholic or Italian I'm a bit confused by the Vatican website. When I chose English it the webpage title is "The Holy See". Is that a mistranslation? Probably not I guess but... I don't get it.

390 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:46:32pm

re: #389 Locker

Forgot the link:

[Link: www.vatican.va...]

391 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:46:51pm

Launched, up up and away:

Latest NASA weather satellite launches at Cape Canaveral

The $500 million Geostationary Operational Environmental Satellite-P (GOES-P) lifted off from Cape Canaveral in Florida at 6:57 pm on a United Launch Alliance Delta IV rocket which will carry the weather-watching satellite to its orbit around 22,000 miles above the Earth’s surface.

392 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:46:52pm

Anyone know a game called "Last Man Standing"? I think I saw it in a movie once, where they face off and trade slaps until someone has to leave for a pee, or neither can remember exactly what or why they were doing this?

That just popped into my head for some strange reason....

393 lawhawk  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:46:52pm

re: #382 Locker

Absolutely. I remember my first time in the 1980s... and it was a religious experience. Never saw grass that green. It was huge. And you knew that this was the very field where Babe, Mick, Lou, Joe, and all the rest played on.

The new stadium is a great experience, but it still somehow misses the soul of the old place. And I wish that they spent as much attention on the food (and the insane prices) as they did on all the Yankee memorabilia. Citifield has no soul, is a nice looking ballpark that maybe the NY Giants or Dodgers could have played in, but the food is so much better (and cheaper).

394 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:46:53pm

re: #378 LudwigVanQuixote

X you are really being an asshole with that. Did you notice one attack after another and now you have to impugn my science? I have been restrained but you have heartedly learned a fuck you for that.

I'll get over it. You big doo-doo head.

;-)

395 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:46:54pm

re: #360 garhighway

Doesn't "spending a third of what we do" imply that their health care is more affordable than ours?

sorry, i'm being flippant...sorta posting lightly and watching basketball at the same time. i'll focus for a sec.

IIRC, in the OECD the five countries with the least govt-to-private spending ratio (excluding the US) and the five countries with the most govt-to-private spending have a nearly identical cost as a % of GDP.

Govt involvement is not the missing link between better outcomes per dollar and where we are today.

I certainly agree that we spend way too much. Reform is necessary, but not necessarily synonymous with govt takeover.

Sorry if i was unnecessarily snarky.

396 Neutral President  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:47:06pm

re: #384 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to step back for a bit and wait for a new thread. I've learned I can't break up these fights once they've gotten rolling so I'm just going to wait this one out.

Just do what I've had to resort to in order to keep me from leaving. Adblock posts from certain people.

"Lesson 22: Blessed Silence"

397 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:47:10pm

re: #384 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to step back for a bit and wait for a new thread. I've learned I can't break up these fights once they've gotten rolling so I'm just going to wait this one out.

Good idea.

398 jaunte  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:47:34pm

re: #389 Locker

Holy See = Sancta Sede = 'holy place"

399 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:47:35pm

re: #381 brookly red

well if you are trolling you been doing it for years & a lot of peeps seem to be on board... if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I'm not too worried about it...I yam what I yam, just like everybody else

400 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:47:37pm

re: #389 Locker

Ok so not being a Catholic or Italian I'm a bit confused by the Vatican website. When I chose English it the webpage title is "The Holy See". Is that a mistranslation? Probably not I guess but... I don't get it.

I think "See" is a linguistic variant of "seat", as in HQ. Could be wrong.

401 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:47:49pm

re: #384 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to step back for a bit and wait for a new thread. I've learned I can't break up these fights once they've gotten rolling so I'm just going to wait this one out.

You're a better man than I am. I am getting so sick of this kindergarten bickering. Really.

402 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:48:11pm

[Link: www.publications.parliament.uk...]
"Computer code is also at the heart of a scientific issue. One of the key features of science is deniability: if you erect a theory and if anyone produces evidence that it is wrong then it falls. This is how science works: by openness, by publishing minute details of an experiment, some mathematical equations or a simulation; by doing this you embrace deniability."

I'm not sure the use of the word deniability is correct in this context, what Popper was concerned about, indeed what caused him to originally deny the Theory of Evolution as a true theory is falsifiability. Later philosophers of science argued that falsifiability isn't the true test of a theory and therefore science, but rather the process of deriving and testing predictions is a better description of how science really works.

Taking what another scientist has produced, and simply re-running the experiment is not how science is done, nor does it provide value in a scientific context. What does happen in science, as far as replicability is concerned, is not a replication of the experiment but a replication of the results. The same data may be used, but it is generally treated differently, with different methods, including code, in an attempt to falsify/verify a prediction based on the data.

It seems like IT people used to the rigid, narrow confines of programming languages and the zero error tolerances of hardware, where testing consists of examining and re-running the same code over and over, have a great deal of trouble understanding the habits of scientists with the releasing of data. Scientists expect other scientists to produce their own procedures and tests, and sometimes even collect their own data to test an hypothesis. Asking a scientist for not only the data but the code and the procedures is likely to just confuse or irritate him.

403 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:48:26pm

re: #378 LudwigVanQuixote

X you are really being an asshole with that. Did you notice one attack after another and now you have to impugn my science? I have been restrained but you have heartedly learned a fuck you for that.

wasn't there a conversation earlier today about false pious objections...can't seem to recall...something about taking it if you're gonna give it...it'll come to me...

404 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:48:35pm

re: #372 Dark_Falcon

I'm kind of surprised that more people aren't grateful to Ludwig for constantly bringing the science. I realize fully that he rubs a lot of people the wrong way and is, ahem, rather blunt, but would LGF in general be nearly as informed on AGW without him?

I know I wouldn't.

405 MandyManners  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:48:39pm

re: #392 Naso Tang

Anyone know a game called "Last Man Standing"? I think I saw it in a movie once, where they face off and trade slaps until someone has to leave for a pee, or neither can remember exactly what or why they were doing this?

That just popped into my head for some strange reason...

True hard-asses just pee where they stand.

406 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:48:52pm

re: #385 Locker

I'm not debating that one but it's hard to ignore that only one side of an arguing party seems to catch flack on a regular basis.

amazing isn't it?...but then again you really can ignore it if you want to

407 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:48:53pm

re: #392 Naso Tang

Anyone know a game called "Last Man Standing"? I think I saw it in a movie once, where they face off and trade slaps until someone has to leave for a pee, or neither can remember exactly what or why they were doing this?

That just popped into my head for some strange reason...

Ahaha [Link: www.addictinggames.com...]

408 SixDegrees  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:49:05pm

re: #389 Locker

Ok so not being a Catholic or Italian I'm a bit confused by the Vatican website. When I chose English it the webpage title is "The Holy See". Is that a mistranslation? Probably not I guess but... I don't get it.

That's correct. "See" in this case comes from the Latin word for "seat"; it is the Church's seat of power. The term is used for other Church units of organization, as well.

The Vatican and the Holy See are not, in fact, completely identical; you can probably find articles about this. For everyday uses, though, they're pretty much interchangeable.

409 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:49:42pm

re: #385 Locker

I'm not debating that one but it's hard to ignore that only one side of an arguing party seems to catch flack on a regular basis.

It's worth it to take the flack when you know you're right, ya goof.

410 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:49:47pm

re: #405 MandyManners

True hard-asses just pee where they stand.

on the chest of the enemy...

411 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:49:53pm

re: #254 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Very cool. Our Mayor whom I intensely dislike, did the most sensible thing of his career. He proposed a 15% pay cut for all city staff. From him to cops to janitors to the legions at city hall. This would head off a layoff of up to 4000. We'll see. However it turns out kudos to Mayor Viiligairosa. If I spelled that right?!

412 MandyManners  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:50:24pm

re: #410 brookly red

on the chest of the enemy...

Wouldn't one need to be on the ground?

413 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:50:30pm

re: #398 jaunte

Holy See = Sancta Sede = 'holy place"

Thank you sir (or ma'am).

414 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:50:44pm

re: #378 LudwigVanQuixote

X you are really being an asshole with that. Did you notice one attack after another and now you have to impugn my science? I have been restrained but you have heartedly learned a fuck you for that.

nobody has impugned your science...stop making that the basis for your behavior

415 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:51:08pm

re: #385 Locker

I'm not debating that one but it's hard to ignore that only one side of an arguing party seems to catch flack on a regular basis.

oh, i think there's giving and getting all around.

416 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:51:16pm

re: #412 MandyManners

Wouldn't one need to be on the ground?

think about it...

417 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:51:22pm

re: #396 ArchangelMichael

Just do what I've had to resort to in order to keep me from leaving. Adblock posts from certain people.

"Lesson 22: Blessed Silence"

If you can provide the filter I would forever grateful. Seriously.

418 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:52:02pm

re: #411 Rightwingconspirator

Very cool. Our Mayor whom I intensely dislike, did the most sensible thing of his career. He proposed a 15% pay cut for all city staff. From him to cops to janitors to the legions at city hall. This would head off a layoff of up to 4000. We'll see. However it turns out kudos to Mayor Viiligairosa. If I spelled that right?!

From where I see it there is no other alternative than pay cuts. Good for Tony! The unions are totally against it, but nothing new there. Bankruptcy looms for L.A., and California unless drastic measures are taken.

419 Charles Johnson  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:52:11pm

re: #385 Locker

I'm not debating that one but it's hard to ignore that only one side of an arguing party seems to catch flack on a regular basis.

I've noticed.

420 prairiefire  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:52:14pm

re: #367 prairiefire

PIMF Mapplethorpe

421 MandyManners  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:52:18pm

re: #416 brookly red

think about it...

I'm trying not to.

422 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:52:19pm

re: #387 Decatur Deb

The first time I walked into St. Peter's I thought "Shit, you could hangar a blimp in here".

you walked in to St Peter's and said "shit"?/

423 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:52:28pm

re: #402 b_sharp

Huge up ding for Popper. I'm a very big fan.

424 Digital Display  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:52:35pm

Observation: Back when I went to Napa JUCO our coach wanted us to do a class in stretching or the like for basketball.. I took the Japanese Marshall Arts class Aikido to stretch for 2 years...I learned a lot..and some off it applies to blogs and the wars..
when an arrow flies at you..Step aside
A punch? Step back
A sword blow? side step it
Make them miss first... Reposition and and reset..
I dunno...I got a brown belt cause they couldn't flunk me..It was so much fun.. we had a great crazy Japanese teacher that so into it...
I was total fun..Our gym a had glass enclosed 2nd level where students would watch the classes (Read College girls) below..
I'm down there doing my best Karate kid impersonation on the mats..
HAh! Grunt!
so much fun

425 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:52:38pm

re: #396 ArchangelMichael

Just do what I've had to resort to in order to keep me from leaving. Adblock posts from certain people.

"Lesson 22: Blessed Silence"

How do you "adblock"? I just go for a snack.

426 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:52:48pm

re: #421 MandyManners

I'm trying not to.

but you must.

427 MandyManners  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:53:15pm

re: #426 brookly red

but you must.

*lalalalalalalalaaa*

428 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:53:20pm

re: #414 albusteve

nobody has impugned your science...stop making that the basis for your behavior

I admire LVQ's knowledge of science. He is a smart man.

429 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:53:27pm

re: #192 HoosierHoops

I can't get my head around rising sea levels? Do you have a link?
I don't get the displacement of ice to liquid.. Everybody knows when ice melts in your glass it never over flows because the ice has been displaced..
How does that work Lud?

A great deal of ice is on land.

430 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:53:45pm

re: #422 Aceofwhat?

you walked in to St Peter's and said "shit"?/

Thought. Actually it's all in the "Pieta" for me. Constuction of that building shattered Christendom.

431 Neutral President  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:53:51pm

re: #417 Locker

If you can provide the filter I would forever grateful. Seriously.

The adblocker I found in that works in Google chrome is rather rudimentary so I have to alt-B click on them manually as I'm scrolling and I see certain names. If Firefox wasn't such a steaming pile of shit now, I could use a real one and get it done automatically.

432 SixDegrees  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:54:08pm

re: #360 garhighway

Doesn't "spending a third of what we do" imply that their health care is more affordable than ours?

Not really. The US has an extremely high percentage of elective medical procedures added to their tabulation, which includes every tummy tuck, liposuction, boob enhancement, botox injection and literally hundreds of other cosmetic procedures. Other countries tend not to count such costs, as they're simply not part of the national system in the first place; many countries citizens also don't share America's obsession with appearance, or simply aren't in the habit of spending their discretionary income on such things.

It's actually very difficult to accurately compare costs between countries. Those issues noted here are just a part of the problems that are encountered.

433 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:54:28pm

re: #429 b_sharp

A great deal of ice is on land.

especially after this last go round...

434 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:54:36pm

re: #432 SixDegrees

Hey, just for kicks-- since you never do-- I'll ask:

Do you have anything to back that up?

435 SixDegrees  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:55:46pm

re: #385 Locker

I'm not debating that one but it's hard to ignore that only one side of an arguing party seems to catch flack on a regular basis.

The squeakiest wheel...

436 garhighway  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:55:50pm

re: #395 Aceofwhat?

sorry, i'm being flippant...sorta posting lightly and watching basketball at the same time. i'll focus for a sec.

IIRC, in the OECD the five countries with the least govt-to-private spending ratio (excluding the US) and the five countries with the most govt-to-private spending have a nearly identical cost as a % of GDP.

Govt involvement is not the missing link between better outcomes per dollar and where we are today.

I certainly agree that we spend way too much. Reform is necessary, but not necessarily synonymous with govt takeover.

Sorry if i was unnecessarily snarky.

I'm not in love with any particular answer to the problem. I just want to see us adopt a system that gets rid of the whole "pre-existing condition" problem and gets people decent health care.

I have a particular interest in the pre-existing condition issue because I went through that (my wife had breast cancer) and saw for myself how the availability of health insurance ended up running our lives. Treatment for that is incredibly expensive. Not having insurance was not an option. So we were basically chained to my then-employer because we wouldn't have had coverage for her if I had changed employers.

Whoever fixes that is my guy. I don't give a shit about party or ideology. Just fix it.

437 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:56:00pm

re: #428 Racer X

I admire LVQ's knowledge of science. He is a smart man.

i agree.

438 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:56:21pm

re: #427 MandyManners

*lalalalalalalalaaa*

/look, a fresh plate of brownies...

439 MandyManners  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:56:56pm

re: #438 brookly red

/look, a fresh plate of brownies...

*perks*

440 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:57:17pm

re: #436 garhighway

I have a particular interest in the pre-existing condition issue because I went through that (my wife had breast cancer) and saw for myself how the availability of health insurance ended up running our lives. Treatment for that is incredibly expensive. Not having insurance was not an option. So we were basically chained to my then-employer because we wouldn't have had coverage for her if I had changed employers.

I hate that - the lack of portability thing. It's utter bullshit.

441 zephirus  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:57:45pm

re: #192 HoosierHoops

The largest effect actually is the thermal expansion of water. If you raise the temperature, the water expands and so takes up more volume. Melting sea ice does nothing...melting ice on land also contributes to rising levels.

442 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:57:48pm

re: #440 Aceofwhat?

Hey Ace-- did you watch the video I posted above?

443 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:58:02pm

re: #439 MandyManners

*perks*

/so I can count on your vote?

444 Digital Display  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:59:12pm

re: #429 b_sharp

A great deal of ice is on land.

Hey..Congratulations on being the 1 millionth respondent!
*wink*

445 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:59:33pm

Neon for Jesus?

Follow the Neon Crosses to the 'Jerusalem of the East'

South Korea ranks second to the Philippines as the most Christian country in Asia. About 30% of the population of 48 million are Christian, according to the 2005 national census. Christianity has spread rapidly here in the past half century, fueled first by the exodus of Christians from the North during the 1950-53 Korean War. Prewar Pyongyang was home to so many Christians and Christian missionaries that it was known as the "Jerusalem of the East."

More recently, Pentecostalism has drawn converts. Today, some 40% of the South's Christians are Pentecostals, according to a 2006 report by the Pew Forum on Religion and Family Life. President Lee Myung-bak is an elder at Somang Presbyterian Church, another megachurch in Seoul. The South's first president, Syngman Rhee, was a Methodist.

Seoul is known as the "city of neon crosses," a reference to the red or white neon crosses atop the city's churches. They light up the night sky. If you drive up Mount Namsan in central Seoul after dark and look down at the city below, there are too many to count. By one estimate, there are 600 neon crosses glowing on the city's rooftops.

446 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 5:59:42pm

re: #442 Obdicut

Hey Ace-- did you watch the video I posted above?

keep it, and post it again...excellent quick overview

447 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:00:04pm

re: #443 brookly red

/so I can count on your vote?

/OK, so hows about I may your brother a judge for life?

448 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:00:34pm

re: #446 albusteve

Will do.

Putting it in spinoffs, too.

449 MandyManners  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:00:38pm

re: #443 brookly red

/so I can count on your vote?

You betcha'!

450 garhighway  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:00:38pm

re: #440 Aceofwhat?

I hate that - the lack of portability thing. It's utter bullshit.

Agreed. I'm all for simplicity and the free market (although I question how consumer-oriented people will ever be when it comes to health care) and if there is a simple free-market solution to that problem I would love to hear it. But I haven't heard one yet.

451 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:00:52pm

re: #440 Aceofwhat?

I hate that - the lack of portability thing. It's utter bullshit.

The nation just stumbled into a health care system where your kid's chemotherapy depends on keeping your 22 yr old dimwit supervisor happy. It's senseless, and it's got to be fixed.

452 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:01:06pm

re: #432 SixDegrees

That's an interesting observation, but I find it hard to imagine that face lifts and tummy tucks are responsible for a major proportion of medical spending in the USA. From what I've seen one can get double size boobs for about $5000. You can't hardly get a bedpan delivered and emptied in a hospital for that.

I think you need to provide sources for something that fundamental.

453 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:02:09pm

re: #451 Decatur Deb

Pithily put.

454 jaunte  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:02:39pm

We're going to need more money to save money.


IRS Faces Tough New Duties Under Health Overhaul

The CBO estimated the IRS would need $5 billion to $10 billion in the first decade to cover the costs of its expanded role. Its annual budget is currently $11.5 billion.

Neither the House nor Senate bill includes funding for the IRS, but money could be added by negotiators.

The IRS already has trouble meeting its primary duty: collecting taxes. By the IRS's own estimates, it failed to collect about $290 billion in taxes in 2005, the latest year for which data are available.
[Link: www.npr.org...]

455 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:02:40pm

re: #370 albusteve

man Lud...you are really off the deep end here...I'm not a denier, a hater, or am I melting...I don't rant either, that's a surprising accusation considering your own redundant, long, windy posts...get a grip dude...Walter or I or anybody else don't hate you...I'd share my steamed cauliflower with you anyday

You know what, I agree. You're not a denier, we should take you at your word when you say that for you it's all about money, that you do not care about the consequences, and think that "it's all somebody else's problem."

Isn't that about right, you don't "deny" anything, you just don't give a rat's ass, and absolutely nothing is going to alter that position?

456 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:04:09pm

re: #451 Decatur Deb

The nation just stumbled into a health care system where your kid's chemotherapy depends on keeping your 22 yr old dimwit supervisor happy. It's senseless, and it's got to be fixed.

agreed, good way to put it...it's folly

457 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:04:56pm

re: #450 garhighway

Agreed. I'm all for simplicity and the free market (although I question how consumer-oriented people will ever be when it comes to health care) and if there is a simple free-market solution to that problem I would love to hear it. But I haven't heard one yet.

Easy it is called the free market... that IS the solution. For example you want less expensive Rx? buy from the lowest bidder. It is that simple.

458 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:05:24pm

re: #431 ArchangelMichael

The adblocker I found in that works in Google chrome is rather rudimentary so I have to alt-B click on them manually as I'm scrolling and I see certain names. If Firefox wasn't such a steaming pile of shit now, I could use a real one and get it done automatically.

Yea I've got the stupid shutdown problem where the process keeps running. Love Adblock though, no one believes me that I use facebook without a single ad. I'll check out the targeted blocking, thank you sir.

459 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:05:57pm

re: #440 Aceofwhat?

I hate that - the lack of portability thing. It's utter bullshit.

That's why I'm a fanatic about health care reform. Over everything else, lack of portability, lack of ability for contractors to get affordable insurance. It's great for big business, they have a lock on your health, so they have a lock on you. Not so great for entrepreneurs. In fact, unbelievably bad for entrepreneurs.

460 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:06:35pm

For the scientists and mathematicians among us, I'd like to share my next vacation spot: Mandelbrot Island.

It's a cozy little country with a finite area but an infinite periphery. Perfect for undersea macrophotography, and the fish is excellent.

Please let me know if you'd like to come with. My planned departure date is the Greek Kalends or when Saudi Arabia builds a synagogue for Jewish visitors, whichever comes first.

461 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:06:49pm

re: #442 Obdicut

Hey Ace-- did you watch the video I posted above?

crap, no, not yet. i will. was watching the MSU-PSU game.

462 Uninformed Opinion  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:07:40pm

re: #450 garhighway

Agreed. I'm all for simplicity and the free market (although I question how consumer-oriented people will ever be when it comes to health care) and if there is a simple free-market solution to that problem I would love to hear it. But I haven't heard one yet.

463 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:08:16pm

re: #459 WindUpBird

That's why I'm a fanatic about health care reform. Over everything else, lack of portability, lack of ability for contractors to get affordable insurance. It's great for big business, they have a lock on your health, so they have a lock on you. Not so great for entrepreneurs. In fact, unbelievably bad for entrepreneurs.

lack of portability, lack of ability for contractors to get affordable insurance.?

well maybe if the gubermint would just butt out?

464 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:08:20pm

re: #457 brookly red

Easy it is called the free market... that IS the solution. For example you want less expensive Rx? buy from the lowest bidder. It is that simple.

I know people who do that. They buy them from overseas. Without a perscription. because the prices in other countries are way lower, they don't have a job with insurance, and it's just easier to illegally buy perscription meds.

Shouldn't have to be this way, but I know your ideology is a tough nut to crack. ;-)

465 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:08:21pm

re: #461 Aceofwhat?

No problem. I'm heading out in eight minutes, so just let me know what you think of it later.

466 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:08:44pm

re: #463 brookly red

lack of portability, lack of ability for contractors to get affordable insurance.?

well maybe if the gubermint would just butt out?

hahahahahahaha you're so cute

467 garhighway  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:09:22pm

re: #457 brookly red

Easy it is called the free market... that IS the solution. For example you want less expensive Rx? buy from the lowest bidder. It is that simple.

So when you get picked up by the ambulance after a car accident and have a bone sticking out of your arm, are you going to negotiate price?

Medical supplies are one thing. I agree that consumerism can meaningfully manifest itself there. But when you are sitting at your spouse's bedside and are listening to the doctor say that it's malignant and has to come out now, most people will not choose that time to haggle over price. And building a health care system on the assumption that people should or will behave that way is folly.

468 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:09:35pm

re: #461 Aceofwhat?

And my post #9 is about adaptation costs for AGW, so it should interest you too.

469 Uninformed Opinion  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:09:38pm

re: #463 brookly red

lack of portability, lack of ability for contractors to get affordable insurance.?

well maybe if the gubermint would just butt out?

Yeah, catastrophic insurance, HSAs, and being uninsured are way better for the country as a whole...

470 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:10:03pm

re: #457 brookly red

Easy it is called the free market... that IS the solution. For example you want less expensive Rx? buy from the lowest bidder. It is that simple.

And how do you do that when the price is fixed in America and buying from, say, Canada is illegal.

"Free market" my enlarged prostate!

471 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:10:10pm

re: #464 WindUpBird

I know people who do that. They buy them from overseas. Without a perscription. because the prices in other countries are way lower, they don't have a job with insurance, and it's just easier to illegally buy perscription meds.

Shouldn't have to be this way, but I know your ideology is a tough nut to crack. ;-)

well someone in high office did promise to allow drug imports before taking a big donation...

472 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:10:10pm

re: #460 Cato the Elder

Has there ever been a map of the island in LOST? Just wondering.

473 Locker  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:10:34pm

Gotta go play through Portal and catch up on the puzzle. Later ya'll, eat well, sleep better and have a great night.

474 SixDegrees  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:10:44pm

re: #452 Naso Tang

That's an interesting observation, but I find it hard to imagine that face lifts and tummy tucks are responsible for a major proportion of medical spending in the USA. From what I've seen one can get double size boobs for about $5000. You can't hardly get a bedpan delivered and emptied in a hospital for that.

I think you need to provide sources for something that fundamental.

It's been discussed in detail here in the past. I get tired of providing links for everything I say; it makes no difference, other than to take up my time. I figure most people know how to use a search engine all by themselves.

The sheer volume of such procedures is amazing. And while a hospital stay of any sort is expensive, it's rare on a per capita basis.

475 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:10:58pm

re: #463 brookly red

lack of portability, lack of ability for contractors to get affordable insurance.?

well maybe if the gubermint would just butt out?

Huh?

476 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:11:10pm

re: #467 garhighway

So when you get picked up by the ambulance after a car accident and have a bone sticking out of your arm, are you going to negotiate price?

Medical supplies are one thing. I agree that consumerism can meaningfully manifest itself there. But when you are sitting at your spouse's bedside and are listening to the doctor say that it's malignant and has to come out now, most people will not choose that time to haggle over price. And building a health care system on the assumption that people should or will behave that way is folly.

don't tell me... tell our President.

477 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:11:44pm

re: #455 goddamnedfrank

You know what, I agree. You're not a denier, we should take you at your word when you say that for you it's all about money, that you do not care about the consequences, and think that "it's all somebody else's problem."

Isn't that about right, you don't "deny" anything, you just don't give a rat's ass, and absolutely nothing is going to alter that position?

I do give a rat's ass, especially considering all the time wasted over who knows what and where it came from...I'm into solutions and that's why I like Obdicut's post about looking at it from another angle...the procrastination in dealing with AGW is mostly about money and it will take years to sort out who gets what and how solutions proceed cost wise...therefore, as for me, it's somebody else's problem...cherry pick all you want, but it appears you have not really followed what little I have to say about AGW

478 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:11:53pm

re: #472 Naso Tang

Has there ever been a map of the island in LOST? Just wondering.

That is it, I believe. The solution to the whole puzzle. They are all lost inside a Mandelbrot set.

479 Uninformed Opinion  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:12:00pm

re: #476 brookly red

don't tell me... tell our President.

why dont we just tell the free market?

480 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:12:08pm

re: #454 jaunte

We're going to need more money to save money.

idiots made me refile 05-07 and then had to send me refunds...again.

they have multiple computer systems for no other reason than...they just do. (that's what the dude said)

pretty sure four of us could go in there and save a few billion through applied "duh" moments. it didn't make me proud to be an American.

481 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:12:21pm

re: #475 Naso Tang

Huh?

easy all these things are controlled by regulations... who regulates? not me.

482 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:12:34pm

re: #386 brookly red

MY science? did you really just say that?

Yes. HIS science. As in the science he has learned. Just like when I talk about my ability to paint, I refer to it as mine. The painting ability that I have acquired through careful study.

How many advanced science degrees do you currently hold?

Obvious trolling is obvious.

483 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:12:37pm

re: #474 SixDegrees

I've researched health insurance heavily and never seen anything to back up your statement.

If you're not willing to back up what you claim, very few people will have any reason to believe you at all.

484 jaunte  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:13:05pm

Mandating that every citizen join the pool of insured should lower the costs of health insurance coverage; I don't have a lot of confidence that the savings will be enough to pay for the federal government to supervise the process.

485 SixDegrees  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:13:06pm

re: #472 Naso Tang

Has there ever been a map of the island in LOST? Just wondering.

Oh, yes. You can find them over at lostpedia.com.

486 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:13:06pm

re: #470 Cato the Elder

And how do you do that when the price is fixed in America and buying from, say, Canada is illegal.

"Free market" my enlarged prostate!

I hear Somalia has a free market!

487 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:13:30pm

re: #455 goddamnedfrank

You know what, I agree. You're not a denier, we should take you at your word when you say that for you it's all about money, that you do not care about the consequences, and think that "it's all somebody else's problem."

Isn't that about right, you don't "deny" anything, you just don't give a rat's ass, and absolutely nothing is going to alter that position?

Geez, dude. We had just gotten past it.

488 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:13:59pm

re: #479 Uninformed Opinion

why dont we just tell the free market?

Because it would require the buyer to monetize his own life or health.

489 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:14:06pm

re: #483 Obdicut

I've researched health insurance heavily and never seen anything to back up your statement.

If you're not willing to back up what you claim, very few people will have any reason to believe you at all.

"I don't have time to look up the references" is the first refuge of the shite talker. I used to see this all the time back when I was part of the truth squad on a BBS infected with conspiracy/UFO nuts.

490 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:14:10pm

re: #466 WindUpBird

hahahahahahaha you're so cute

I am an independent contractor... I have affordable coverage, if I can do it you can do it.

491 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:14:13pm

re: #483 Obdicut

I've researched health insurance heavily and never seen anything to back up your statement.

If you're not willing to back up what you claim, very few people will have any reason to believe you at all.

Yeah I've dueled online about health care for years, I have NEVER seen anything credible about lipo and botox radically skewing numbers. Talking points, maybe, no data.

492 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:14:40pm

re: #482 WindUpBird

Yes. HIS science. As in the science he has learned. Just like when I talk about my ability to paint, I refer to it as mine. The painting ability that I have acquired through careful study.

How many advanced science degrees do you currently hold?

Obvious trolling is obvious.

presume that it began out of something logical at your own risk.

493 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:15:12pm

re: #490 brookly red

I am an independent contractor... I have affordable coverage, if I can do it you can do it.

Not if he has a pre-existing condition. For example.

494 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:15:56pm

re: #474 SixDegrees

It's been discussed in detail here in the past. I get tired of providing links for everything I say; it makes no difference, other than to take up my time. I figure most people know how to use a search engine all by themselves.
The sheer volume of such procedures is amazing. And while a hospital stay of any sort is expensive, it's rare on a per capita basis.

You sound cranky tonight. Hope it's not serious, and expensive.

You have enough free time to know more than me on what has been posted here, so it shouldn't take a lot more to post your links when you make major assertions, more than once, so that other people don't have to waste THEIR time double checking you.

Of course one could also just ignore, but I try to be more polite than that.

495 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:16:01pm

re: #481 brookly red

easy all these things are controlled by regulations... who regulates? not me.

You know what should be privatized? 911! Fire departments! The police!

Oh, what, you don't have $400 free on your credit card for the house call from the cops when there's a rapist about to kick your door down? Tough shit, maybe you shouldn'ta spent all that money on food, lady!

496 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:16:26pm

re: #488 Decatur Deb

Because it would require the buyer to monetize his own life or health.

There is also the matter of regulation of safety. You can buy your drugs overseas, but you have next to zero guarantee of what's actually in them.

We regulate drugs for the same reasons we regulate food, to protect the health and safety of the population. I don't want to lose that protection in the name of letting the free market work. The free market has a piss poor record of ensuring product safety without having its feet held to the fire.

497 garhighway  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:17:05pm

re: #476 brookly red

don't tell me... tell our President.

Our President isn't the one peddling the "free market solves all our problems" elixir. And he certainly didn't create the mess we have now.

The free market is great. No doubt. But it doesn't operate in the health care industry the way it does elsewhere. I gave two examples. It wouldn't be hard to think of more. How is "tell the president" responsive to those? And how does the free market fix the pre-existing condition problem?

498 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:17:09pm

re: #490 brookly red

I am an independent contractor... I have affordable coverage, if I can do it you can do it.

Pre-existing condition much?

499 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:17:28pm

re: #459 WindUpBird

That's why I'm a fanatic about health care reform. Over everything else, lack of portability, lack of ability for contractors to get affordable insurance. It's great for big business, they have a lock on your health, so they have a lock on you. Not so great for entrepreneurs. In fact, unbelievably bad for entrepreneurs.

I owned a remodel business for 20 years...we tried every year to get some kind of coverage for our people, but it just was not financially practical....very frustrating trying to help 20-22 employees...it makes you feel helpless...small business just gets killed in that regard

500 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:17:47pm

re: #497 garhighway

Our President isn't the one peddling the "free market solves all our problems" elixir. And he certainly didn't create the mess we have now.

The free market is great. No doubt. But it doesn't operate in the health care industry the way it does elsewhere. I gave two examples. It wouldn't be hard to think of more. How is "tell the president" responsive to those? And how does the free market fix the pre-existing condition problem?

Still waiting for brookly red to tell us his awesome idea for privatizing the police ala OCP from Robocop.

501 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:18:05pm

re: #486 WindUpBird

I hear Somalia has a free market!

Yeah. You can even get yourself a nice slave girl. Cheaper used.

When the law allows large companies and Medicare to negotiate prices with the pharma companies like with any other manufacturers, the free marketeers can come back and talk to me. Till then they can talk to the Invisible Hand.

502 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:18:18pm

re: #493 Cato the Elder

Not if he has a pre-existing condition. For example.

uhhh, no not true... I know some of you will say BS but it is just a bad reaction to the kool aid. check out freelance union (googel them) and don't bother asking me for a link.

503 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:18:34pm

re: #468 Obdicut

And my post #9 is about adaptation costs for AGW, so it should interest you too.

favorited!

504 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:18:56pm

re: #495 WindUpBird

You know what should be privatized? 911! Fire departments! The police!

Oh, what, you don't have $400 free on your credit card for the house call from the cops when there's a rapist about to kick your door down? Tough shit, maybe you shouldn'ta spent all that money on food, lady!

you are a desperate asshole.

505 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:19:09pm

re: #501 Cato the Elder

And when consumers can actually sue health care provided through their insurer for damages caused by inappropriately denied coverage.

Not a lot of people know that they can't do that.

506 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:19:22pm

re: #498 WindUpBird

Pre-existing condition much?

no one asked...

507 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:19:35pm

re: #495 WindUpBird

You know what should be privatized? 911! Fire departments! The police!

Oh, what, you don't have $400 free on your credit card for the house call from the cops when there's a rapist about to kick your door down? Tough shit, maybe you shouldn'ta spent all that money on food, lady!

riiight. that's what he said.

508 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:19:54pm

re: #499 albusteve

I owned a remodel business for 20 years...we tried every year to get some kind of coverage for our people, but it just was not financially practical...very frustrating trying to help 20-22 employees...it makes you feel helpless...small business just gets killed in that regard

My father runs a law firm. And health coverage for his employees is a biiig expense for him. One of the companies I contract for would love to have full-time employees with coverage, but they just cannot make the numbers work.

509 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:19:56pm

re: #470 Cato the Elder

And how do you do that when the price is fixed in America and buying from, say, Canada is illegal.

"Free market" my enlarged prostate!

geez...I hope you're kidding you nut

510 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:20:01pm

re: #437 Aceofwhat?

i agree.

Scientists like LVQ tend to react quickly and sharply to stupidity. That may be annoying at times but you always know what to expect.

511 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:20:06pm

re: #500 WindUpBird

Still waiting for brookly red to tell us his awesome idea for privatizing the police ala OCP from Robocop.

you are a desperate asshole.

512 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:20:27pm

re: #500 WindUpBird

Still waiting for brookly red to tell us his awesome idea for privatizing the police ala OCP from Robocop.

could've sworn he said insurance. did he lapse into French? i can translate...

513 Kruk  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:20:58pm

re: #467 garhighway

So when you get picked up by the ambulance after a car accident and have a bone sticking out of your arm, are you going to negotiate price?

Medical supplies are one thing. I agree that consumerism can meaningfully manifest itself there. But when you are sitting at your spouse's bedside and are listening to the doctor say that it's malignant and has to come out now, most people will not choose that time to haggle over price. And building a health care system on the assumption that people should or will behave that way is folly.

The other major problem with negotiating health costs is the imbalance in knowledge and power between a patient and health provider. The provider is the person holding a lot of specialised knowledge that is very difficult for a layperson to match, no matter how much research they do. Whe your health provider says that you need x treatment, and only centres y in your insurance network at z price, it's very difficult to dispute that. You have to take it on trust.

514 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:21:29pm

re: #495 WindUpBird

You know what should be privatized? 911! Fire departments! The police!

Oh, what, you don't have $400 free on your credit card for the house call from the cops when there's a rapist about to kick your door down? Tough shit, maybe you shouldn'ta spent all that money on food, lady!

a little inflammatory?....really?

515 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:21:36pm

re: #506 brookly red

no one asked...

Wait till you actually try to use that policy. You may be in for a shock.

516 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:22:21pm

re: #512 Aceofwhat?

could've sworn he said insurance. did he lapse into French? i can translate...

here let me help... I got caught in a lie = change the subject and deflect...

some time I don't even know why I bother.

517 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:22:25pm

re: #444 HoosierHoops

Hey..Congratulations on being the 1 millionth respondent!
*wink*

Don't harsh me man, I'm always late. Just ask the wife.

BTW, do I win something?

518 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:22:57pm

re: #515 Cato the Elder

Wait till you actually try to use that policy. You may be in for a shock.

Blue shield? uhhh, try again.

519 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:23:45pm

re: #509 albusteve

geez...I hope you're kidding you nut

About what? The price-fixing or the prostate?

Both are true, alas.

520 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:24:01pm

re: #510 b_sharp

Scientists like LVQ tend to react quickly and sharply to stupidity. That may be annoying at times but you always know what to expect.

now i disagree. i promise not to be an ass when on a subject of my expertise. i promise to hold the behavior you describe in low esteem.

scientists are grown-ups like the rest of us. we should teach, not lecture rudely...unless we wish to invite such conversations, of course. sometimes picking a little fight can be fun. you just have to remember to have fun...

521 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:24:09pm

re: #457 brookly red

Easy it is called the free market... that IS the solution. For example you want less expensive Rx? buy from the lowest bidder. It is that simple.

Only if you ignore human psychology.

522 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:24:14pm

Taking a break. Spent the morning finding out my insurer doesn't have a "preferred provider" specialist in my county. BBL?

523 Kruk  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:25:13pm

re: #496 PT Barnum

There is also the matter of regulation of safety. You can buy your drugs overseas, but you have next to zero guarantee of what's actually in them.

We regulate drugs for the same reasons we regulate food, to protect the health and safety of the population. I don't want to lose that protection in the name of letting the free market work. The free market has a piss poor record of ensuring product safety without having its feet held to the fire.

You commie! You want our lives to be totally regulated like this poor schlub's life has been?

[Link: rationalwiki.com...]

524 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:25:42pm

re: #504 brookly red

you are a desperate asshole.

And you don't seem to understand that the Freelancer's Union doesn't even offer coverage in all 50 states. I typed my zipcode in, I got an offer of a dental plan, and disability, and life insurance. No health.

Epic Freelancers Union Fail!

And yes, I'm an asshole. But not a desparate one. A smart one.

525 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:25:54pm

re: #460 Cato the Elder

For the scientists and mathematicians among us, I'd like to share my next vacation spot: Mandelbrot Island.

It's a cozy little country with a finite area but an infinite periphery. Perfect for undersea macrophotography, and the fish is excellent.

Please let me know if you'd like to come with. My planned departure date is the Greek Kalends or when Saudi Arabia builds a synagogue for Jewish visitors, whichever comes first.

Somebody go nuts with a ray tracer?

526 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:25:55pm

re: #516 brookly red

here let me help... I got caught in a lie = change the subject and deflect...

some time I don't even know why I bother.

the lack of coherent response is its own reward, on occasion.

527 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:26:20pm

re: #507 Aceofwhat?

riiight. that's what he said.

Maybe he didn't but there are plenty who do.

One city - I forget where - is trying it already. You can either "subscribe" to 911 for (if I recall aright) $45 a year or else pay $350 (again, from memory) per usage.

528 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:27:04pm

OK here is a link to my plan... pls note the rates are based on NY prices. Yours are probably less.

[Link: www.freelancersunion.org...]


if you can't do this what can I say?

529 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:28:38pm

re: #527 Cato the Elder

Maybe he didn't but there are plenty who do.

One city - I forget where - is trying it already. You can either "subscribe" to 911 for (if I recall aright) $45 a year or else pay $350 (again, from memory) per usage.

As usual, you introduce your opinion with tact.

I haven't heard of that. Are they trying to cut down on unnecessary calls? i hear that's a real burden at times.

530 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:28:49pm

re: #514 albusteve

a little inflammatory?...really?

It's the truth. People who want to privatize and deregulate all health will essentially create an exploitative system. Health ain't like a widget. It is distributed risk, and everyone pays into the pool to get the risk distributed, thus everyone gets coverage.

Same with police, really. Our tax dollars go into a pool. Pool pays for police resources. Some people need them more than others.

What's hilarious is, we're not even remotely talking about a single payer system, we're talking about mild reform, mild regulation, basically preventing health insurance from ruining peoples' lives over money. In no way are we removing private insurance from the scene.

So yeah, my imagery is vivid, the point is valid.

531 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:28:51pm

re: #524 WindUpBird

And you don't seem to understand that the Freelancer's Union doesn't even offer coverage in all 50 states. I typed my zipcode in, I got an offer of a dental plan, and disability, and life insurance. No health.

Epic Freelancers Union Fail!

And yes, I'm an asshole. But not a desparate one. A smart one.

so join a credit union... your state does have them no? or are you just going to sit there and cry till the nanny state changes your diaper?

532 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:29:25pm

re: #481 brookly red

easy all these things are controlled by regulations... who regulates? not me.

I also have had my own insurance most of my life, and had the cost increase by double digits every year and had no claims over my deductible. But I was dropped once for unknown reasons, and I could be tomorrow for any reason.

None of that has anything whatsoever to do with government regulation except possibly that the insurance companies could get away with even more without the threat of it.

What we call insurance is not insurance in the sense of pooling risk. Insurance is a crap game for profit where the house sets the odds and says who can play.

533 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:29:43pm

re: #190 albusteve

jackboot is an all purpose expression...give it up and quit being so soft

From the same Wiki Obdicut selectively and dishonestly quoted from.

The word is commonly used in Britain as a synonym for totalitarianism, particularly fascism, although jackboots and similar types of footwear have been worn by various British regiments since the 18th century. Following the 1982 invasion of the Falkland Islands, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher declared that the democratic rights of the Falkland Islanders had been assaulted, and would not surrender the islands to the Argentine "jackboot."

[the bit obdicut quoted]

Jackboots can also be associated with the armies of the former USSR (called sapogi) and East Germany. Jackboots are still a part of the modern parade and service attire of the army of Russia and several other former Soviet states.

534 Kruk  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:29:45pm

re: #506 brookly red

no one asked...

No-one asked if you had a pre-existing condition when you filled in the form? If so, I really wouldn't expect much help from the insurer if you ever need coverage for that condition.

535 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:30:02pm

re: #518 brookly red

Blue shield? uhhh, try again.

LOL, you really have no clue. "Blue Shield" means squat anymore. They rent the name out to private insurers to make their policies look solid, but in the fine print it says the policy is not from Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Seriously. Had one of those. You might want to check your card and read the fine print in the policy someday.

"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away." --Tom Waits

536 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:30:26pm

re: #534 Kruk

No-one asked if you had a pre-existing condition when you filled in the form? If so, I really wouldn't expect much help from the insurer if you ever need coverage for that condition.

blue shield dude...

537 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:31:24pm

re: #535 Cato the Elder

LOL, you really have no clue. "Blue Shield" means squat anymore. They rent the name out to private insurers to make their policies look solid, but in the fine print it says the policy is not from Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Seriously. Had one of those. You might want to check your card and read the fine print in the policy someday.

"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away." --Tom Waits

mine work just fine... sorry but it does.

538 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:31:36pm

re: #528 brookly red

OK here is a link to my plan... pls note the rates are based on NY prices. Yours are probably less.

[Link: www.freelancersunion.org...]

if you can't do this what can I say?

I did do this. Only option I had in Iowa was dental.

If my wife didn't have insurance where she worked, we'd be in a shitload of trouble, as I'm not even sure I could get health insurance at a reasonable price due to some ongoing medical issues.

539 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:31:57pm

re: #508 WindUpBird

My father runs a law firm. And health coverage for his employees is a biiig expense for him. One of the companies I contract for would love to have full-time employees with coverage, but they just cannot make the numbers work.

I wish...where I was in an affluent area in MI, the competition for work was extreme...I used to just about stroke when my partner, the business side, wanted to talk to me about anything....huge amounts of money at stake and any mistakes could kill us...there was no margin for error just to stay in business...we just could not pass the cost down...I both loved and hated that racket, but you could lose your shirt in a heartbeat...I worked my ass off, did a million and a half in business annually, won awards, magazine articles, was in the top 1% and I never took more than about 50k a year out of it....way too much work and stress...trying to get my people covered was futile

540 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:32:01pm

re: #516 brookly red

here let me help... I got caught in a lie = change the subject and deflect...

some time I don't even know why I bother.

What the hell?

Here is my exact situation, since you're all blustery flustery.

I have a day job. With insurance. Pretty much I have the day job ONLY FOR THE INSURANCE.

I have a night job where I make fabulous imagery and video game assets for a variety of freelance clients! No insurance there.

Now. If I had affordable insurance, I could quit the day job and just work megafull time on my art, make more money, everyone wins.

But! I can't get affordable insurance. If you're calling me a liar, please call Charles a liar too, because he pays a LOT (i his words) for his insurance. i am betting me makes a lot more than I do with my little art gigs.

Your ideology is bankrupt and silly, and you know it.

541 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:32:23pm

re: #530 WindUpBird

eh...the analogy was strained to the point of appearing to be pejorative.

healthcare is complicated enough...it's like police funding in only an extremely basic way that does nothing for the discussion. hence the tsk, tsk.

542 brookly red  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:33:17pm

Look I have good insurance despite being unemployed... If I can do it anyone can do it. That is all, and have a good night.

543 Kruk  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:33:22pm

re: #530 WindUpBird

It's the truth. People who want to privatize and deregulate all health will essentially create an exploitative system. Health ain't like a widget. It is distributed risk, and everyone pays into the pool to get the risk distributed, thus everyone gets coverage.

The distribution of risk is what allows any form of insurance to work. Countries with single payer health systems distribute it through social insurance (you pay in while young and healthy, take out when old and sick.) Employement health insurance works on the same principle, except you distribute the risk in a pool of hundreds/thousands rather than millions.

544 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:33:37pm

re: #539 albusteve

I wish...where I was in an affluent area in MI, the competition for work was extreme...I used to just about stroke when my partner, the business side, wanted to talk to me about anything...huge amounts of money at stake and any mistakes could kill us...there was no margin for error just to stay in business...we just could not pass the cost down...I both loved and hated that racket, but you could lose your shirt in a heartbeat...I worked my ass off, did a million and a half in business annually, won awards, magazine articles, was in the top 1% and I never took more than about 50k a year out of it...way too much work and stress...trying to get my people covered was futile

My cousin and her husband run a carpentry outfit, they make kitchen cabinets, remodel homes and such. Looks like hard, scary work, totally dependent on the housing market.

545 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:34:11pm

re: #533 Bagua

i've knocked two friends for bringing up old, smelly crap from upthread.

count yourself the third. we're past that. if you could contribute something...that'd be greaaat...yeaaah...thaaanks...

546 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:34:12pm

re: #542 brookly red

Look I have good insurance despite being unemployed... If I can do it anyone can do it. That is all, and have a good night.

I JUST TRIED TO DO IT AND IT TOLD ME NO, DUDE

Run along now.

547 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:34:29pm

re: #519 Cato the Elder

About what? The price-fixing or the prostate?

Both are true, alas.

the prostate you nut...that's a hell of alot more important...not to tell you what to do, but beware amigo

548 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:35:19pm

re: #545 Aceofwhat?

i've knocked two friends for bringing up old, smelly crap from upthread.

count yourself the third. we're past that. if you could contribute something...that'd be greaaat...yeaaah...thaaanks...

Don't tell me what to post amigo, it is hardly old.

549 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:35:51pm

re: #528 brookly red

OK here is a link to my plan... pls note the rates are based on NY prices. Yours are probably less.

[Link: www.freelancersunion.org...]

if you can't do this what can I say?

I have coverage via United H. in Florida. I will check through this door and see if the rate is the same.

550 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:36:03pm

re: #520 Aceofwhat?

Why are you being such a putz tonight Ace? I certainly did not come out swinging nor did I lose my cool.

551 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:36:39pm

re: #540 WindUpBird

you lied when you implied he thought we oughta privatize the police.

come on. keep up. i'm trying to watch the Office in the background and you're sucking the funny out of it.

(would be embarrassing to cry to CJ about this, now, wouldn't it;)

552 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:37:13pm

re: #541 Aceofwhat?

eh...the analogy was strained to the point of appearing to be pejorative.

healthcare is complicated enough...it's like police funding in only an extremely basic way that does nothing for the discussion. hence the tsk, tsk.

I think it does a lot for the discussion. We're talking about basic social services that a society needs in order to function. Police, fire, health, and so on.

People are losing their mud over the notion of health care becoming slightly more regulated. But they dont blink at all these other social services that are 100% funded by tax dollars.

Is it basic? yeah! Health care is basic stuff. We have a calcified, cancerous, corrupt system in place. We have armies of publically traded middlemen who create no value (except for their shareholders), they just take our money. It definitely needs to be more basic and logical.

553 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:38:14pm

re: #548 Bagua

Don't tell me what to post amigo, it is hardly old.

post what you want. i'm critical, not the boss. it's different. ten posts later i may be in stitches.

some folks stick up for particular people. i do my best to stick up for particular principles. like not muddying the water again when we just got it clear.

554 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:38:18pm

re: #529 Aceofwhat?

As usual, you introduce your opinion with tact.

I haven't heard of that. Are they trying to cut down on unnecessary calls? i hear that's a real burden at times.

I believe that's the rationale, yes.

But it's going about it the wrong way, and it will get people killed.

It's not a fine for frivolously calling 911, it's a per-usage fee for people who don't subscribe.

So let's say you think you're having a heart attack, but you know calling 911 will cost you $350 you don't have, on top of whatever money you don't have for the actual medical treatment, because you don't have insurance. So you tell yourself, "Ah, it's just that acid reflux again", and drop dead half an hour later.

As the old, unfunny joke goes, it's no crime to be poor, but it might as well be.

555 Unakite  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:38:53pm

re: #151 Obdicut

The methane outgassing means that the more pessimistic outlooks should be adopted, which do result in billions dead.

What have you read, exactly, Walter? I've seen plenty of studies that show that, if the worst-case scenarios-- like dramatic methane outgassing-- occurr, that billions will die. How have you manged to miss the implications of things like 3 billion people having to move or starve due to climate change?

[Link: www.newscientist.com...]

Since you're linking to newscientist and referencing methane outgassing, did you see this part in your link?

However, it is not clear whether the leakage is a new phenomenon. Graham Westbrook of the University of Birmingham, UK, reported 250 submarine methane hotpots off the Arctic islands of Svalbard last year, but did not determine whether they were affecting the atmosphere above. "The subsea permafrost has been degrading and leaking methane beneath for thousands of years," he told New Scientist.

556 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:39:03pm

re: #552 WindUpBird

then introduce it like Cato did, rather than imply that Brookly was going there.

huuuge difference, IMO.

557 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:39:16pm

re: #404 Obdicut

I'm kind of surprised that more people aren't grateful to Ludwig for constantly bringing the science. I realize fully that he rubs a lot of people the wrong way and is, ahem, rather blunt, but would LGF in general be nearly as informed on AGW without him?

I know I wouldn't.

Hey thanks!

558 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:39:29pm

re: #551 Aceofwhat?

you lied when you implied he thought we oughta privatize the police.

come on. keep up. i'm trying to watch the Office in the background and you're sucking the funny out of it.

(would be embarrassing to cry to CJ about this, now, wouldn't it;)

I was making a joke about the notion of a free market creating more value even when it is completely deregulated. As a response to b-red saying that with more deregulation we'll magically get better health care. Robocop. OCP. You know, Clarence Boddicker? Dick Jones? Ed-209? 10 seconds to comply?

I also lied when I said I totally could skate like Tony Hawk in an earlier thread.

559 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:39:54pm

re: #553 Aceofwhat?

post what you want. i'm critical, not the boss. it's different. ten posts later i may be in stitches.

some folks stick up for particular people. i do my best to stick up for particular principles. like not muddying the water again when we just got it clear.

Having myself been slandered on similar grounds by Obdicut I am particularly sensitive to these to these dishonest attacks.

560 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:39:59pm

re: #536 brookly red

blue shield dude...

Means diddly, dude.

561 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:40:54pm

re: #554 Cato the Elder

I believe that's the rationale, yes.

But it's going about it the wrong way, and it will get people killed.

It's not a fine for frivolously calling 911, it's a per-usage fee for people who don't subscribe.

So let's say you think you're having a heart attack, but you know calling 911 will cost you $350 you don't have, on top of whatever money you don't have for the actual medical treatment, because you don't have insurance. So you tell yourself, "Ah, it's just that acid reflux again", and drop dead half an hour later.

As the old, unfunny joke goes, it's no crime to be poor, but it might as well be.

Yeah, i'm utterly failing to see how this is a good idea. Could be myopia, but when i see things the same way that you do, i feel ok about it.

562 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:42:13pm

re: #556 Aceofwhat?

then introduce it like Cato did, rather than imply that Brookly was going there.

huuuge difference, IMO.

Not a peep from you about the fact that brookly called me a liar about my insurance situation.

You know, becase nobody has two jobs nowadays. Nobody ever moonlights. ;-)

563 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:42:15pm

re: #544 WindUpBird

My cousin and her husband run a carpentry outfit, they make kitchen cabinets, remodel homes and such. Looks like hard, scary work, totally dependent on the housing market.

it's awful until you gain a reputation which we eventually did, but everything always hangs in the balance...it's nerve wracking...eventually we hit the jackpot for a while, and after I made well for a number of years I sold out and went to nursing school....that's when my problems with the IRS really hit the fan....anyway, I am a carpenter by trade and would love to just build cabinets and do fine woodworking for a living

564 Kruk  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:43:06pm

re: #554 Cato the Elder

I believe that's the rationale, yes.

But it's going about it the wrong way, and it will get people killed.

It's not a fine for frivolously calling 911, it's a per-usage fee for people who don't subscribe.

So let's say you think you're having a heart attack, but you know calling 911 will cost you $350 you don't have, on top of whatever money you don't have for the actual medical treatment, because you don't have insurance. So you tell yourself, "Ah, it's just that acid reflux again", and drop dead half an hour later.

As the old, unfunny joke goes, it's no crime to be poor, but it might as well be.


Cripes. Do we really want people thinking twice about calling 911 when when they see someone enter a store with a gun and ski-mask? This is seriously bad policy.

565 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:43:21pm

re: #558 WindUpBird

I was making a joke about the notion of a free market creating more value even when it is completely deregulated. As a response to b-red saying that with more deregulation we'll magically get better health care. Robocop. OCP. You know, Clarence Boddicker? Dick Jones? Ed-209? 10 seconds to comply?

I also lied when I said I totally could skate like Tony Hawk in an earlier thread.

no sweat, then. it didn't read like a joke. but if i had a nickel every time i tried for sarc and it fell flatter than overmixed pancake batter, I could pay for all of our healthcare...so let's get back to healthcare!

566 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:43:53pm

re: #320 Decatur Deb

Any conceivable economic capture and exploitation?

NO not really, if we captured methane and burnt it we get massive CO2 release.

567 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:43:56pm

re: #547 albusteve

the prostate you nut...that's a hell of alot more important...not to tell you what to do, but beware amigo

Oh, my friend, thank you. I get my level checked twice a year. So far it's benign and I can still pee without pills.

568 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:44:13pm

re: #559 Bagua

Having myself been slandered on similar grounds by Obdicut I am particularly sensitive to these to these dishonest attacks.

How about when Charles points out your lies :)

569 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:44:49pm

re: #562 WindUpBird

Not a peep from you about the fact that brookly called me a liar about my insurance situation.

You know, becase nobody has two jobs nowadays. Nobody ever moonlights. ;-)

as i read it, he called you a liar about implying he wished to privatize the police. but i may have read it wrong - we should take you at your word for something personal like that, IMO.

570 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:45:20pm

re: #568 LudwigVanQuixote

How about when Charles points out your lies :)

I asked you not to start up with me you psycho.

571 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:45:47pm
572 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:45:54pm

re: #520 Aceofwhat?

now i disagree. i promise not to be an ass when on a subject of my expertise. i promise to hold the behavior you describe in low esteem.

scientists are grown-ups like the rest of us. we should teach, not lecture rudely...unless we wish to invite such conversations, of course. sometimes picking a little fight can be fun. you just have to remember to have fun...

Scientists, just like all other human groups, contain a wide variety of personalities, each with their own 'right' reaction. It may be desirable in most social contexts to not be like LVQ on this thread, but there is no absolute judgment that can be passed. There is a scientist on the talk origins news forum by the name of John Harshman who is very much like LVQ in his reaction to stupidity. His reaction to honest questions is the exact opposite, calm, kind and informative. I've also seen LVQ act like that.

Stupidity isn't the same as ignorance, it is intentional, and as such needs to be treated sharply and directly. Up until lately I treated everyone equally, seldom losing my temper or being abusive. I did this for 6 years while engaging creationists, and the last 2 while engaging anti-AGWers. It accomplished nothing.

I not only understand LVQ, I frequently agree with his tactics.

573 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:46:03pm

re: #460 Cato the Elder

For the scientists and mathematicians among us, I'd like to share my next vacation spot: Mandelbrot Island.

It's a cozy little country with a finite area but an infinite periphery. Perfect for undersea macrophotography, and the fish is excellent.

Please let me know if you'd like to come with. My planned departure date is the Greek Kalends or when Saudi Arabia builds a synagogue for Jewish visitors, whichever comes first.

I've met Madlebrot many times. He is very charming.

574 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:46:54pm

re: #565 Aceofwhat?

no sweat, then. it didn't read like a joke. but if i had a nickel every time i tried for sarc and it fell flatter than overmixed pancake batter, I could pay for all of our healthcare...so let's get back to healthcare!

haha I feel like I'm a little too internettey for LGF sometimes. I forget I'm used to Livejournal which is more like the wild west of chatty forums.

575 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:47:32pm

re: #571 Bagua

QED that he is not a scientist, rather a fraud.

Speaking of which, what do you do Bagsy? You are very insitent on my not being a scientist even when everyone else knows it. YOu claim to know what science is and is not despite your many freshman errors in understanding - so really, what do you do? I am very curious.

576 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:47:36pm

re: #559 Bagua

Having myself been slandered on similar grounds by Obdicut I am particularly sensitive to these to these dishonest attacks.

Sometimes i disagree with people. I like it. It's part of why I'm here.

Funny thing, though - i find that treating them like the wonderful humans they are at every other opportunity makes it sooo much easier when i feel like being disagreeable again.

Like i said, post what you want. This just seemed over the top (again).

577 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:49:10pm

re: #569 Aceofwhat?

as i read it, he called you a liar about implying he wished to privatize the police. but i may have read it wrong - we should take you at your word for something personal like that, IMO.


Fair enuff! If the dude HONESTLY thought I was accusing him of Dark Futureing the cops, I didn't mean that. I thought he thought he had me in a lie because I wa stalking about my day job in one post and my contract stuff in another.

I wish I had a better gig! As it is I've sorta cobbled together my frankenstein life out of a lot of weird vocations. :D

578 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:49:42pm

re: #561 Aceofwhat?

Yeah, i'm utterly failing to see how this is a good idea. Could be myopia, but when i see things the same way that you do, i feel ok about it.

Well, to be fair, the article I read seemed to say it had been mooted as a proposal. Somehow I doubt it will pass.

There are better ways to cut down on false alarms. I believe right here in Baltimore they fine you if you call more than three times for no good reason. You know, crazy old coot thinks every noise is a break-in attempt, that kind of thing.

Why do I have this sudden urge to reread Vonnegut's "God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater"? Maybe because it's largely about volunteer fire departments.

579 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:50:29pm

re: #571 Bagua

QED that he is not a scientist, rather a fraud.

Oh come on. A scientist could walk to a dive bar and pick fights with bikers every week. He's still a scientist.

580 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:50:30pm

re: #572 b_sharp

i lack faith in your/my/our ability to consistently discern honest questions from stupidity 'worth scorn' (although CJ is remarkably good at it...i wonder if that's why we're here...nah...prob coincidence).

that is why i disagree quite strongly with you on this point.

but i appreciate your honesty, and i'm perfectly content to disagree on this point and move along amicably.

581 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:50:47pm
582 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:51:01pm

re: #577 WindUpBird

Fair enuff! If the dude HONESTLY thought I was accusing him of Dark Futureing the cops, I didn't mean that. I thought he thought he had me in a lie because I wa stalking about my day job in one post and my contract stuff in another.

I wish I had a better gig! As it is I've sorta cobbled together my frankenstein life out of a lot of weird vocations. :D

I was a garbageman one summer after my freshman year. it was...interesting.

583 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:51:04pm

re: #572 b_sharp

Scientists, just like all other human groups, contain a wide variety of personalities, each with their own 'right' reaction. It may be desirable in most social contexts to not be like LVQ on this thread, but there is no absolute judgment that can be passed. There is a scientist on the talk origins news forum by the name of John Harshman who is very much like LVQ in his reaction to stupidity. His reaction to honest questions is the exact opposite, calm, kind and informative. I've also seen LVQ act like that.

Stupidity isn't the same as ignorance, it is intentional, and as such needs to be treated sharply and directly. Up until lately I treated everyone equally, seldom losing my temper or being abusive. I did this for 6 years while engaging creationists, and the last 2 while engaging anti-AGWers. It accomplished nothing.

I not only understand LVQ, I frequently agree with his tactics.

Thanks mate!

For the record, those tactics arose after abut a year of being kind and patient even with the willfully blind stupid and out and out malicious.

One time, I had my nic blued, and you should have seen the mail I got from it.


I just slowly came to realize that those who want to know get nothing but kindness and patience from me, and those who clearly have any agenda but the truth get the drision they deserve. Though honestly, I have been exceptionally mellow of late. The truth is wringing their hands over how mean I am is a great diversionary tactic from the real issues.

It only shows them as lame.

As of now their trolling only points them out clearly.

584 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:51:45pm
585 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:52:01pm

re: #581 Bagua

holy shit, not again. how many damn times do different people have to vouch for the guy, when in reality we ought to all take each other at our words in the first place?

wtf?

586 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:52:51pm

re: #582 Aceofwhat?

I was a garbageman one summer after my freshman year. it was...interesting.

The weirdest job I ever had was working in a silk-screen shop. i can't believe they let a 17 year old kid (me) run a die-cutter that could cut a cow in half, and a litho press the size of a VW bus.

587 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:53:35pm

re: #573 LudwigVanQuixote

I've met Madlebrot many times. He is very charming.

Really? Next time you see him, would you tell him how much pleasure his work has given me?

I even have Mandelbrot and Buddhabrot images as my screen savers.

588 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:53:42pm

re: #581 Bagua

Come clean Ludwig, you are the one who makes professional claims. Who are you and what are your qualifications? I expect you are at best a teacher at a high school or a community college. You talk like a teenager, so you are unlikely older than 25.

I talk like a teenager and I'm 33.

589 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:53:44pm

re: #581 Bagua

Come clean Ludwig, you are the one who makes professional claims. Who are you and what are your qualifications? I expect you are at best a teacher at a high school or a community college. You talk like a teenager, so you are unlikely older than 25.

Hey Bagua, how about a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up.

590 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:54:12pm
591 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:54:12pm

re: #567 Cato the Elder

Oh, my friend, thank you. I get my level checked twice a year. So far it's benign and I can still pee without pills.

I've read some obscure studies that presume the prostate is connected to the brain, therefore your ego has some influence on that fussy gland...but I don't understand all the physiology of course

592 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:54:13pm

re: #584 Bagua

I base this on many, many discussion in which Ludwig has shown a very weak grasp of the underlying science he links to. He's a fraud. Prove me wrong.

Bagua,

I don't care for LVQ condescending attitude most of the time, but I believe he is what he says.

593 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:54:57pm
594 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:55:16pm

re: #581 Bagua

Come clean Ludwig, you are the one who makes professional claims. Who are you and what are your qualifications? I expect you are at best a teacher at a high school or a community college. You talk like a teenager, so you are unlikely older than 25.

Irrelevant and untrue. You demanded information about my background and were given it many times. What is yours?

You always talk like you are an authority on things you nothing of, so I am curious what you might be an authority on.

Seriously, what do you do? It should not be so difficult to answer.

If I had to guess, I would think you are some sort of psychologist who comes here to mess with people.

You have that sort of mealy mouthed passive aggressive manner that still needs to be loved about you coupled with a lack of understanding of hard science but the hubris to think you are one. So really, what do you do?

595 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:55:19pm

re: #589 goddamnedfrank

Hey Bagua, how about a nice hot cup of shut the fuck up.

The dude gets hat-tips from Charles for posts! Charles' blog cred is on the line if LVQ was a fraud. :P

596 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:55:26pm

re: #593 Bagua

Great, what's your stance on the Easter Bunny? Real or not?

Not real.

597 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:55:54pm

re: #588 WindUpBird

I talk like a teenager and I'm 33.

Your posts are constant with your age. You have claimed to be an artist and linked to original artwork that you have done. You have credibility with me.

598 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:55:55pm

re: #586 WindUpBird

The weirdest job I ever had was working in a silk-screen shop. i can't believe they let a 17 year old kid (me) run a die-cutter that could cut a cow in half, and a litho press the size of a VW bus.

good stuff!

funny thing about being a garbageman...it's not that stinky. hanging on to the back of the truck - you can keep the wind in your face.

but after two weeks of novelty...wow.

boring. as. hell. Kept me excited about my degree, tho!

599 Charles Johnson  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:56:24pm

My last nerve is now being hammered upon.

600 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:56:48pm

re: #587 Cato the Elder

Really? Next time you see him, would you tell him how much pleasure his work has given me?

I even have Mandelbrot and Buddhabrot images as my screen savers.

He would be charmed. He is very old, very French and very Jewish.

He has that air of the 19th century about him for want of a better way of phrasing it. It's a sort of Victor Borge vibe - not in terms of humor, but rather in terms of just being utterly charming in a very Continental way.

601 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:56:54pm

re: #567 Cato the Elder

Oh, my friend, thank you. I get my level checked twice a year. So far it's benign and I can still pee without pills.

Lucky man. Right now, Flomax is my best friend.

602 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:58:20pm

Then what's THIS then?!?!

The Easter Bunny is real, and has access to the highest corridors of government. We have no idea how much of our foreign policy is secretly being orchestrated by rabbits at this very moment. Socialist...rabbits.

603 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:58:52pm

re: #599 Charles

you only gave him, like, 328 chances.

604 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:58:55pm

re: #586 WindUpBird

The weirdest job I ever had was working in a silk-screen shop. i can't believe they let a 17 year old kid (me) run a die-cutter that could cut a cow in half, and a litho press the size of a VW bus.

VW Buss!
2pts

605 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:58:57pm

re: #598 Aceofwhat?

good stuff!

funny thing about being a garbageman...it's not that stinky. hanging on to the back of the truck - you can keep the wind in your face.

but after two weeks of novelty...wow.

boring. as. hell. Kept me excited about my degree, tho!

There's nothing like a dull job to make the good job more appealing :D

606 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:59:01pm

re: #602 WindUpBird

Then what's THIS then?!?!

The Easter Bunny is real, and has access to the highest corridors of government. We have no idea how much of our foreign policy is secretly being orchestrated by rabbits at this very moment. Socialist...rabbits.

I stand corrected.

607 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:59:48pm

re: #601 b_sharp

Lucky man. Right now, Flomax is my best friend.

Best name for a prescription med ever! I had to take it for a while, but then somehow I stopped needing it.

Maybe it was the swimming. Not sitting on my butt all day. Or the meditation. (See Albusteve's post about the psychological connection.)

608 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 6:59:57pm

re: #602 WindUpBird

Then what's THIS then?!?!

The Easter Bunny is real, and has access to the highest corridors of government. We have no idea how much of our foreign policy is secretly being orchestrated by rabbits at this very moment. Socialist...rabbits.

so THAT's what the fluoridation eventually results in!! dammit!!

609 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:00:21pm

re: #599 Charles

My last nerve is now being hammered upon.

Why do you accept Ludwig starting up with me like this? I didn't say one word to him.

610 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:01:12pm

re: #604 albusteve

VW Buss!
2pts

My old coworker had a microbus that she took her rottweilers everywhere in. people kept offering her money for it at stoplights because it had a weird sliding door configuration? I can't remember what, i know more about water-cooled VWs than air-cooled.

611 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:01:15pm

re: #608 Aceofwhat?

so THAT's what the fluoridation eventually results in!! dammit!!

Ice cream. Childrens' Ice Cream, Mandrake.

612 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:01:18pm

re: #609 Bagua

dude - the qualifications? again? you need this explained? at some point you need to be saved from yourself...

613 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:01:40pm

re: #609 Bagua

Why do you accept Ludwig starting up with me like this? I didn't say one word to him.

Please don't start whining. It's very unbecoming.

614 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:02:15pm

re: #608 Aceofwhat?

so THAT's what the fluoridation eventually results in!! dammit!!

hahaha spontaneous rabbit mutation conspiracy at the highest levels above top secret FOR YOUR EYES ONLY

615 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:02:26pm

re: #612 Aceofwhat?

dude - the qualifications? again? you need this explained? at some point you need to be saved from yourself...

LVQ, I think you need to provide a copy of your birth certificate. That will bring this to a close.
//

616 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:03:16pm

re: #611 rwdflynavy

Ice cream. Childrens' Ice Cream, Mandrake.

My father had the BIGGEST grin on his face when he sat me down as a 13 year old and showed me that movie. I had never laughed so hard at an older movie in my life.

617 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:03:17pm

re: #615 rwdflynavy

whelp, the gin's up the nose now. well played.

618 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:03:34pm

re: #613 goddamnedfrank

Please don't start whining. It's very unbecoming.

I am being told not to respond to someone who is starting up with me. Call it what you like, you're not the sweetest apple in the basket yourself.

619 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:03:48pm

re: #602 WindUpBird

We have no idea how much of our foreign policy is secretly being orchestrated by rabbits at this very moment. Socialist...rabbits.

Time for the Holy Hand-Grenade of Antioch.

620 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:04:04pm

Now I want to draw fan art of that White House easter bunny. But I have to work for reals. :-(

621 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:04:10pm

re: #588 WindUpBird

I talk like a teenager and I'm 33.

33?

You are a teenager, you young whippersnapper you.

622 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:05:14pm

Sleep beckons Lizarddom,

See some of you at shift change.

623 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:06:13pm

re: #619 Cato the Elder

Time for the Holy Hand-Grenade of Antioch.

lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade!

I went from loving that movie as a teenager, then being tired of it as a teenager because every goddamn nerd I knew quoted it to death, then I got to college and I was the only nerd, and I loved it immediately again. :D

624 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:07:16pm

re: #618 Bagua

I am being told not to respond to someone who is starting up with me. Call it what you like, you're not the sweetest apple in the basket yourself.

i respond to people who start up with me too. this ain't "responding".

625 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:07:35pm

re: #621 b_sharp

33?

You are a teenager, you young whippersnapper you.

I sure behave like one. Right down to the late night cartoon benders, the metal posters and neon signs on my wall, and the pyramid of beer-empties :D

626 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:07:36pm

re: #610 WindUpBird

My old coworker had a microbus that she took her rottweilers everywhere in. people kept offering her money for it at stoplights because it had a weird sliding door configuration? I can't remember what, i know more about water-cooled VWs than air-cooled.

if it ain't air cooled your dirt to vintage VW owners...I had a pristine 85 Westy for years, a water pumper so I was like nobody...a VW fraud...those people are very suspicious of late models...anyway I see a lot of old busses around here in NM where nothing ever dies...some of those rare models are worth a ranch house in DeMoines

627 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:08:10pm

re: #615 rwdflynavy

LVQ, I think you need to provide a copy of your birth certificate. That will bring this to a close.
//

LOL ok that was F'n brilliant!

628 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:08:27pm

re: #597 Bagua

Your posts are constant with your age. You have claimed to be an artist and linked to original artwork that you have done. You have credibility with me.

Constant. Do you mean consistent?

629 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:09:16pm

re: #618 Bagua

I am being told not to respond to someone who is starting up with me. Call it what you like, you're not the sweetest apple in the basket yourself.

You're right, I'm not. But as I pointed out up thread, I am as successful as I am because I know how and when to say goodbye.

Toodles.

630 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:09:19pm

re: #587 Cato the Elder

Really? Next time you see him, would you tell him how much pleasure his work has given me?

I even have Mandelbrot and Buddhabrot images as my screen savers.

I had a cool Julia set one until last year when my HD died, and I didn't have the coordinates. Could never find it again.

631 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:09:57pm

re: #618 Bagua

I am being told not to respond to someone who is starting up with me. Call it what you like, you're not the sweetest apple in the basket yourself.

Uhh no you are being told to stop slandering me. You are alos being asked just what exactly it is you do since it is so important to you. Am I right? Psychologist who wants to mes with people? Psychiatrist? Window washer who reads self help books and considers himself an expert? What do you do?

632 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:09:58pm

re: #619 Cato the Elder

Time for the Holy Hand-Grenade of Antioch.

pull the pin!...do it!...you know you want to!

633 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:10:54pm

re: #626 albusteve

if it ain't air cooled your dirt to vintage VW owners...I had a pristine 85 Westy for years, a water pumper so I was like nobody...a VW fraud...those people are very suspicious of late models...anyway I see a lot of old busses around here in NM where nothing ever dies...some of those rare models are worth a ranch house in DeMoines

hahah I know, the vintage guys are nice in Portland, though. There's a lot of VWs in Oregon of every possible vintage. Daily driven squarebacks and Ghias, LOTS of VW Things. But I'm a GTI guy, I've wanted one since I was in college, and it uh...only took me about eight years to make it happen.

634 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:10:56pm

re: #630 Naso Tang

I had a cool Julia set one until last year when my HD died, and I didn't have the coordinates. Could never find it again.

By the way... Chaos is my field.

635 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:11:10pm

re: #624 Aceofwhat?

i respond to people who start up with me too. this ain't "responding".

I wasn't talking to him or about him and he comes out of the blue to bait me and call me a liar.

re: #628 b_sharp

Constant. Do you mean consistent?

Yes, thanks.

re: #629 goddamnedfrank

You're right, I'm not. But as I pointed out up thread, I am as successful as I am because I know how and when to say goodbye.

Toodles.

You put too much value into the rating system. If I wanted to comment at your pace, and played for popularity I would have a similar rating.

636 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:11:29pm

re: #634 LudwigVanQuixote

By the way... Chaos is my field.

funny for all the wrong reasons. but damn funny//

637 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:11:29pm

re: #599 Charles

My last nerve is now being hammered upon.

What are you drinking?

I find Seagrams V.O. works well for that.

638 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:12:20pm

re: #625 WindUpBird

I sure behave like one. Right down to the late night cartoon benders, the metal posters and neon signs on my wall, and the pyramid pyramids of beer-empties :D

FTFY

639 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:12:54pm

re: #635 Bagua

I wasn't talking to him or about him and he comes out of the blue to bait me and call me a liar.

Oh, ok. Good thing you didn't do that to Obdicut.

gaze

640 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:13:29pm

re: #634 LudwigVanQuixote

By the way... Chaos is my field.

I have this on a t-shirt. :D

641 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:13:53pm

re: #631 LudwigVanQuixote

Uhh no you are being told to stop slandering me. You are alos being asked just what exactly it is you do since it is so important to you. Am I right? Psychologist who wants to mes with people? Psychiatrist? Window washer who reads self help books and considers himself an expert? What do you do?

Why do you ask my qualification when yours are off limits and above question? I do not make claims to authority, so I have nothing to substantiate.

Send me an email and we can discuss this in private if you are worried about stalkers, I'll respect your privacy.

642 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:14:00pm

re: #637 b_sharp

What are you drinking?

I find Seagrams V.O. works well for that.

Bombay, tonic, lime wedge. First one since my pneumonia. It's sweet.

643 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:14:21pm

re: #634 LudwigVanQuixote

By the way... Chaos is my field.

No, that's the organization you work for. Iceweasel told me.

I heard a rumor that Soros is making a hostile takeover bid.

644 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:14:47pm

re: #638 Cato the Elder

FTFY

Right now I'm staring at a big mess of Dopplesticke, Aventinus, Victory Golden Monkey, and Redhook Nut Brown bottles to clean up when I get home XD

645 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:15:07pm

re: #635 Bagua

You put too much value into the rating system. If I wanted to comment at your pace, and played for popularity I would have a similar rating.

You comment at a pace that rivals anyone else's here, B.

646 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:15:18pm

re: #643 Cato the Elder

No, that's the organization you work for. Iceweasel told me.

I heard a rumor that Soros is making a hostile takeover bid.

the rumor is incorrect. it's not hostile - they're embracing it with open arms/

647 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:15:19pm

re: #642 Aceofwhat?

Bombay, tonic, lime wedge. First one since my pneumonia. It's sweet.

Bombay is my preferred gin for G and Ts!

648 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:15:50pm

re: #607 Cato the Elder

Best name for a prescription med ever! I had to take it for a while, but then somehow I stopped needing it.

Maybe it was the swimming. Not sitting on my butt all day. Or the meditation. (See Albusteve's post about the psychological connection.)

Damn you, giving me one more reason to get off my butt. I wonder if ancient is too old for marshal arts?

649 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:16:03pm

re: #634 LudwigVanQuixote

By the way... Chaos is my field.

I only know enough to bullshit on blogs, and enjoy the pictures.

650 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:16:22pm

re: #639 Aceofwhat?

Oh, ok. Good thing you didn't do that to Obdicut.

gaze

Obdicut began that track with me on the overnight thread. I did not start with him.

re: #645 Cato the Elder

You comment at a pace that rivals anyone else's here, B.

I meant his snail pace.

651 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:17:10pm

re: #647 WindUpBird

Bombay is my preferred gin for G and Ts!

Bombay and Strangelove...we're going to get along juuust fine, my friend.

I find that anything more expensive is a waste with tonic - should be sipped straight up.

652 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:17:14pm

re: #641 Bagua

Why do you ask my qualification when yours are off limits and above question? I do not make claims to authority, so I have nothing to substantiate.

Send me an email and we can discuss this in private if you are worried about stalkers, I'll respect your privacy.

How many people, including Charles, have to verify LVQ's standing before you stop with this ridiculous line of attack. Are you calling Charles a liar?

Yes, in fact, you are.

653 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:17:57pm

re: #633 WindUpBird

hahah I know, the vintage guys are nice in Portland, though. There's a lot of VWs in Oregon of every possible vintage. Daily driven squarebacks and Ghias, LOTS of VW Things. But I'm a GTI guy, I've wanted one since I was in college, and it uh...only took me about eight years to make it happen.

the new GTI is awsome...Car and Driver raved about it...Things are slowly moving up the value ladder too...I've owned several VWs...I had a 67 Type 3 I really loved...right now I drive a Jetta which is getting me through my medical misery, but I'm gonna pick up a good low mile Passat soon...holy shit, what a car

654 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:18:35pm

re: #647 WindUpBird

Bombay is my preferred gin for G and Ts!

Mine too. That sexy pic of the Empress of India just makes me thirsty.

655 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:19:12pm

re: #651 Aceofwhat?

Bombay and Strangelove...we're going to get along juuust fine, my friend.

I find that anything more expensive is a waste with tonic - should be sipped straight up.

haha remember that when I next fly off the handle about politics. :D

656 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:19:26pm

re: #652 Cato the Elder

How many people, including Charles, have to verify LVQ's standing before you stop with this ridiculous line of attack. Are you calling Charles a liar?

Yes, in fact, you are.

No I am not, don't put words in my mouth. I have been a supporter and defender of Charles for years, including off this blog.

657 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:19:51pm

re: #650 Bagua

"started" and "overnight" are antonyms. maybe that's the root of the problem!

I stir things up with OB all the time. Weird how we still end it ok each day. Does that mean it's not really his fault?

658 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:20:13pm

re: #648 b_sharp

Damn you, giving me one more reason to get off my butt. I wonder if ancient is too old for marshal arts?

My therapy is swimming. I had getting sweaty. Being immersed in water solves that problem.

And it's very gentle on the joints.

659 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:20:31pm

re: #643 Cato the Elder

No, that's the organization you work for. Iceweasel told me.

I heard a rumor that Soros is making a hostile takeover bid.

heh...go ahead and feed the animals if you must

660 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:21:12pm

re: #655 WindUpBird

haha remember that when I next fly off the handle about politics. :D

likewise!

661 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:21:30pm

re: #653 albusteve

the new GTI is awsome...Car and Driver raved about it...Things are slowly moving up the value ladder too...I've owned several VWs...I had a 67 Type 3 I really loved...right now I drive a Jetta which is getting me through my medical misery, but I'm gonna pick up a good low mile Passat soon...holy shit, what a car

The new one looks amazing, but I want to cling to mine (A 2005 1.8T) as long as I can. I got to drive a brand new Passat as a loaner when my car was being worked on (ignition coils :( ) and it was pretty astonishing, the tech in that car. And it comes in wagon form! I do love wagons.

662 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:21:33pm

re: #650 Bagua

Obdicut began that track with me on the overnight thread. I did not start with him.

The thing about these occasional cat fights that is often missed by the participants is that nobody else reading knows or gives a shit who started it.

663 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:22:04pm

re: #656 Bagua

No I am not, don't put words in my mouth. I have been a supporter and defender of Charles for years, including off this blog.

Well, then, why isn't his vouching for LVQ's credentials good enough for you?

664 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:22:05pm

re: #657 Aceofwhat?

"started" and "overnight" are antonyms. maybe that's the root of the problem!

I stir things up with OB all the time. Weird how we still end it ok each day. Does that mean it's not really his fault?

You have not been accused of antiSemitism by him yet I presume? Seeing yet another Jewish lizard being tarred like that kicks up issues with me.

665 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:22:06pm

re: #656 Bagua

No I am not, don't put words in my mouth. I have been a supporter and defender of Charles for years, including off this blog.

are you similarly effective off the blog?

666 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:22:50pm

re: #662 Naso Tang

The thing about these occasional cat fights that is often missed by the participants is that nobody else reading knows or gives a shit who started it.

bingo. "started" and "overnight" go together like stinkpalm and chocolate pretzels.

667 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:23:19pm

re: #660 Aceofwhat?

likewise!

That's the thing about me, I get REALLY RILED UP and then I forget it all and I'm nice again and I just want to geek out about cars or metal or Ghostbusters or whatever. Though sometimes I get riled up at the same people over and over and over again...

668 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:24:46pm

re: #658 Cato the Elder

My therapy is swimming. I had getting sweaty. Being immersed in water solves that problem.

And it's very gentle on the joints.

I prefer gentle joints myself...not so much the gonzo stuff where you talk to Castaneda after he passed...yikeners!

669 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:25:08pm

re: #662 Naso Tang

The thing about these occasional cat fights that is often missed by the participants is that nobody else reading knows or gives a shit who started it.

Yet it is significant who casts the first stone to anyone interested in justice. But I agree being one half of the argument leaves one open to criticism by people who are unwilling to look beyond the surface.

re: #666 Aceofwhat?

bingo. "started" and "overnight" go together like stinkpalm and chocolate pretzels.

That thread was active earlier today, I'm not talking about last night.

670 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:26:28pm

re: #664 Bagua

You have not been accused of antiSemitism by him yet I presume? Seeing yet another Jewish lizard being tarred like that kicks up issues with me.

nope. he's accused me of things. i argued back. i could've done better. he probably could've too.

shrug.

logged in the next day and went back about enjoying everyone's company, including his, sticking up for him when he's right and disagreeing when I disagree.

I'm not Jewish - i'm Christian. Have received nothing but good intentions from all (well...Idioma...but that's different!).

671 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:26:42pm

re: #667 WindUpBird

That's the thing about me, I get REALLY RILED UP and then I forget it all and I'm nice again and I just want to geek out about cars or metal or Ghostbusters or whatever. Though sometimes I get riled up at the same people over and over and over again...

likewise!

672 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:27:03pm

re: #669 Bagua

That thread was active earlier today, I'm not talking about last night.

i stand by it

673 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:27:54pm

oof...post of eeevil. just saw that.

the power of Christ compels me!

674 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:29:21pm

re: #658 Cato the Elder

My therapy is swimming. I had getting sweaty. Being immersed in water solves that problem.

And it's very gentle on the joints.

My wife loves swimming but hates high chlorine levels so public pools are out. I have no problems with my joints as long as I keep my strength up. Unfortunately I haven't hit the weights for 3 years and I'm really starting to feel it. Age really accelerates the entropy, doesn't it.

675 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:29:26pm

re: #672 Aceofwhat?

i stand by it

As do I.

676 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:29:32pm

re: #661 WindUpBird

The new one looks amazing, but I want to cling to mine (A 2005 1.8T) as long as I can. I got to drive a brand new Passat as a loaner when my car was being worked on (ignition coils :( ) and it was pretty astonishing, the tech in that car. And it comes in wagon form! I do love wagons.

so do I, but I won't spend that kind of money on one...my new car buying days are behind me...I'd love to have an 06-08 Passat...and I will...I now all kinds of pure performance people...I know all about speed and my little Jetta will cruise at 100mph, but the Passat is bigger and far badder...I'd love a wagon

677 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:30:38pm

re: #676 albusteve

so do I, but I won't spend that kind of money on one...my new car buying days are behind me...I'd love to have an 06-08 Passat...and I will...I now all kinds of pure performance people...I know all about speed and my little Jetta will cruise at 100mph, but the Passat is bigger and far badder...I'd love a wagon

love the look of that new sedan coupe they make...like the Mercedes CLS but 1/3 the price.

678 b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire)  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:31:03pm

re: #668 albusteve

I prefer gentle joints myself...not so much the gonzo stuff where you talk to Castaneda after he passed...yikeners!

Upding for knowing of Carlos Castaneda.

679 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:32:33pm

re: #677 Aceofwhat?

love the look of that new sedan coupe they make...like the Mercedes CLS but 1/3 the price.

VW is on a roll...they are making some really cool stuff right now

680 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:34:02pm

re: #643 Cato the Elder

No, that's the organization you work for. Iceweasel told me.

I heard a rumor that Soros is making a hostile takeover bid.

So, Ludwig works with Maxwell Smart?

;)

681 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:34:28pm

who said a station wagon won't do 115 across the desert all day?...ha!

682 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:34:45pm

re: #641 Bagua

I don't want your qualifications, just your profession. you are so evasive about it. Honestly your evasiveness makes it all the more interesting to me. What are you hiding Bagua?

I don't want your CV or you to prove what you claim, I just want to konw your field or if you even have one.

683 Achilles Tang  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:35:11pm

re: #669 Bagua

Yet it is significant who casts the first stone to anyone interested in justice. But I agree being one half of the argument leaves one open to criticism by people who are unwilling to look beyond the surface.

"Justice" is not the goal of winning an argument, particularly when the depth below the surface is based on emotions.

And with that I'm going to bed thinking I won.

684 cliffster  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:35:13pm

re: #678 b_sharp

Upding for knowing of Carlos Castaneda.

Carlos Castaneda is posting on this blog from the infinity

685 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:35:15pm

re: #676 albusteve

so do I, but I won't spend that kind of money on one...my new car buying days are behind me...I'd love to have an 06-08 Passat...and I will...I now all kinds of pure performance people...I know all about speed and my little Jetta will cruise at 100mph, but the Passat is bigger and far badder...I'd love a wagon

I've never bought a new car and never plan to. let someone else absorb the depreciation hit. I like the look of the B5.5s the best when it comes to Passats (2001-2005) but I like the super-boxy euro look, and they have the same engine as my car, which means lots of ways to tune it for more HP.

There's those insane Passat AWD 8 cylinder beasts around, but I fear the reliability issues on such a complex engine. :P

686 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:36:05pm

Oh, BTW, the Stalkers are bragging about how Snork could "crush" Ludwig in a debate. As of, that's all I'm gonna say about it. As if.

687 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:36:36pm

re: #664 Bagua

You have not been accused of antiSemitism by him yet I presume? Seeing yet another Jewish lizard being tarred like that kicks up issues with me.

Uhhm you were going on about Jewish controlled banks and then called me a Kapo duder. I would watch out with claiming you are Jewish though if you would... it's a bit embarrassing. Sop what do you do.

688 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:36:58pm

re: #677 Aceofwhat?

love the look of that new sedan coupe they make...like the Mercedes CLS but 1/3 the price.

The Passat CC! Now if only they'd bring the Polo over here and stick the engine from the R32 in it...

689 Bagua  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:37:03pm

re: #683 Naso Tang

"Justice" is not the goal of winning an argument, particularly when the depth below the surface is based on emotions.

And with that I'm going to bed thinking I won.

We all have our personal motivations. But yes you do win, you are always reasonable, respectful and factual in your posts.

690 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:37:04pm

re: #682 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't want your qualifications, just your profession. you are so evasive about it. Honestly your evasiveness makes it all the more interesting to me. What are you hiding Bagua?

I don't want your CV or you to prove what you claim, I just want to konw your field or if you even have one.

I have an idea...why don't you guys give it up?...Lud, you have been exposed, Bag, you are fighting a loser cause...let it go and move on

691 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:37:37pm

re: #669 Bagua

That thread was active earlier today, I'm not talking about last night.

Yes it is, you would be the one who casts first and then lies smarmily about it. So really Bagua, what do you do?

692 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:38:35pm

re: #690 albusteve

I have an idea...why don't you guys give it up?...Lud, you have been exposed, Bag, you are fighting a loser cause...let it go and move on

just the thought of you as referee is awesome

693 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:38:50pm

You know I was awy for a while and I come back to find BAgua whining about me. I am a little tired of him to say the least and vrey curous why he is so evasive. What do you do Bagsy?

694 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:39:06pm

re: #686 Dark_Falcon

Oh, BTW, the Stalkers are bragging about how Snork could "crush" Ludwig in a debate. As of, that's all I'm gonna say about it. As if.

dare i ask who snork is?

695 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:39:44pm

re: #690 albusteve

I have an idea...why don't you guys give it up?...Lud, you have been exposed, Bag, you are fighting a loser cause...let it go and move on

I have an idea, why don't you mind your own business. We both know where we stand with teach other. SO really, Bagua, what do you do?

696 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:40:05pm
697 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:40:18pm

re: #693 LudwigVanQuixote

You know I was awy for a while and I come back to find BAgua whining about me. I am a little tired of him to say the least and vrey curous why he is so evasive. What do you do Bagsy?

don't say i won't stick up for you when i think it's appropriate!

698 Racer X  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:40:44pm

I know you are but what am I?

Doo-doo heads.

699 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:40:44pm

re: #685 WindUpBird

I've never bought a new car and never plan to. let someone else absorb the depreciation hit. I like the look of the B5.5s the best when it comes to Passats (2001-2005) but I like the super-boxy euro look, and they have the same engine as my car, which means lots of ways to tune it for more HP.

There's those insane Passat AWD 8 cylinder beasts around, but I fear the reliability issues on such a complex engine. :P

right about the 8...enough is enough...I have no problem buying a car because I like it's body design...my 02 Accord Coupe was bought just for that reason...that and the 6 cylinder engine...my all time favorite car I've ever owned...whoa!

700 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:41:09pm
701 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:42:24pm

re: #692 Aceofwhat?

just the thought of you as referee is awesome

check out my cool striped shirt...I have a whistle too

702 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:42:30pm

would it be too much to ask anyone if they wanted popcorn//

703 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:42:40pm
704 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:42:51pm

re: #694 Aceofwhat?

dare i ask who snork is?

He's one of the lead stalkers. Insulting and abusive as all get-out, especially to me and Ludwig.

705 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:43:59pm

re: #703 Bagua

Charles has started deleting posts, so lets reduce the hostility please.

706 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:44:05pm

re: #699 albusteve

right about the 8...enough is enough...I have no problem buying a car because I like it's body design...my 02 Accord Coupe was bought just for that reason...that and the 6 cylinder engine...my all time favorite car I've ever owned...whoa!

Those do look good, somewhere around 2000 Hondas started to look a lot more like Acuras and Acuras started to look more German.

707 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:44:48pm
708 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:44:49pm

re: #705 Dark_Falcon

Charles has started deleting posts, so lets reduce the hostility please.

i think i made the same request about 100 posts ago. to the same effect.

709 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:45:04pm

Mmmmm ... I smell fresh baked deleted messages, yummy!

710 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:45:19pm

re: #695 LudwigVanQuixote

I have an idea, why don't you mind your own business. We both know where we stand with teach other. SO really, Bagua, what do you do?

remember the Iron Fist Rule?...let it go, the hostility is a bad vibe and it's anybodies business in an open forum

711 cliffster  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:45:21pm

re: #698 Racer X

I know you are but what am I?

Doo-doo heads.

Heh

712 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:45:51pm

CJ,

OK. point taken.

713 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:46:13pm
714 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:47:37pm

re: #706 WindUpBird

Those do look good, somewhere around 2000 Hondas started to look a lot more like Acuras and Acuras started to look more German.

my problem with the newer acura sedans is that they don't drive much differently than the V6 accord...might as well just get the accord...

715 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:48:08pm

re: #706 WindUpBird

Those do look good, somewhere around 2000 Hondas started to look a lot more like Acuras and Acuras started to look more German.

heh...never thought of it like that...the 02 Accord Coupe was one bad ass looker...mine was silver too

Image: Accord_Coupe_1998-2002.JPG

716 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:48:16pm

re: #713 Bagua

That's a graceless concession. You can be better that, Bagua.

717 cliffster  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:48:43pm

re: #698 Racer X

I know you are but what am I?

Doo-doo heads.

Will you stop touching me?!?

718 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:49:04pm

re: #709 goddamnedfrank

Mmmm ... I smell fresh baked deleted messages, yummy!

that pleases you?

719 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:49:31pm
720 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:49:36pm

re: #717 cliffster

Will you stop touching me?!?

shhh...quit it...he's gonna pull the car over//

721 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:50:41pm

re: #715 albusteve

heh...never thought of it like that...the 02 Accord Coupe was one bad ass looker...mine was silver too

[Link: upload.wikimedia.org...]

really? the rims? dude.

722 swamprat  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:50:54pm

I love the smell of burnt data.

723 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:51:04pm

re: #718 albusteve

that pleases you?

That they've begun to learn their lesson, or at least pretend to again, if only for one evening? Yes, that pleases me.

724 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:52:26pm

re: #722 swamprat

I love the smell of burnt data.

eh. burnt sockpuppet smells good. this just smells like wasted time.

725 albusteve  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 7:55:20pm

re: #721 Aceofwhat?

really? the rims? dude.

just the stock tires and wheels for me...nice catch tho...that thing was blazing fast on the high end, and hugged the road like glue...the suspension was supreme...you could not ask for a better car for the money imo

726 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 8:00:46pm

re: #670 Aceofwhat?

I'm not Jewish - i'm Christian. Have received nothing but good intentions from all (well...Idioma...but that's different!).

Ah, Idioma - the atheist who makes Richard Dawkins look like he knows what the fark he's talking about...

727 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 8:03:20pm

Look, I like very simple graphs. Before humans started burning mined fuel (oil, coal, and natural gas), the world had been oscillating in a naturally occurring cycle of glaciation events, more than likely caused by long-wave sun cycles.

Here's a graph of past temperatures and CO2 levels:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The fact is that in the 70's and early 80's, it looked we were overdue for a glaciation cycle. Temperatures were at or near historic highs, and CO2 levels were very high. The problem was, we had forced gigatons of CO2 into the atmosphere, to levels not seen for millions of years and they were increasing rapidly. The question became:

"What is this forcing mechanism doing to *natural* earth cycles absent the influence of man?"

That question started modern climate research and modeling. The fact is, you can't argue the science any more. It's happening and we are responsible. You can attack the scientists, or you can fucking do something about it. I would prefer to keep the Gulf Coast and the eastern seaboard as viable economic centers in this country.

Industry claims that thousands of jobs and billions of dollars would be lost if we switched over to a green energy economy. But that pales in comparison to what will *surely* be lost if climate predictions are correct.

728 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 8:08:06pm

re: #727 austin_blue

Look, I like very simple graphs. Before humans started burning mined fuel (oil, coal, and natural gas), the world had been oscillating in a naturally occurring cycle of glaciation events, more than likely caused by long-wave sun cycles.

Here's a graph of past temperatures and CO2 levels:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The fact is that in the 70's and early 80's, it looked we were overdue for a glaciation cycle. Temperatures were at or near historic highs, and CO2 levels were very high. The problem was, we had forced gigatons of CO2 into the atmosphere, to levels not seen for millions of years and they were increasing rapidly. The question became:

"What is this forcing mechanism doing to *natural* earth cycles absent the influence of man?"

That question started modern climate research and modeling. The fact is, you can't argue the science any more. It's happening and we are responsible. You can attack the scientists, or you can fucking do something about it. I would prefer to keep the Gulf Coast and the eastern seaboard as viable economic centers in this country.

Industry claims that thousands of jobs and billions of dollars would be lost if we switched over to a green energy economy. But that pales in comparison to what will *surely* be lost if climate predictions are correct.

Quite Concur.

729 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 8:11:25pm

re: #726 Cato the Elder

Ah, Idioma - the atheist who makes Richard Dawkins look like he knows what the fark he's talking about...

interesting discussion we had the other night, though. i don't know if i made things better or worse. i tried...

730 [deleted]  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 8:12:32pm
731 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 8:19:05pm

re: #730 Bagua

didja think maybe el moderato just didn't feel like picking through all of your dirty boxers and was just making a point?

that was my last piece of advice. this is starting to feel like the homeless guy they found dead on the back of the Orca...asking for it.

goin back upstairs. later.

732 Charles Johnson  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 8:19:49pm

If I have to waste my time deleting any more comments in this thread, I'm going to make sure it doesn't happen any more by blocking accounts.

733 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 8:25:54pm

re: #732 Charles

If I have to waste my time deleting any more comments in this thread, I'm going to make sure it doesn't happen any more by blocking accounts.

Understood. Exit, stage upstairs. Let's all go up there and leave this thread behind.

734 Tigger2005  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 8:26:55pm

When all the global warming shit goes down, the anti-warming crowd will continue to deny that human activity had anything to do with it. Actually, they'll probably say it's God's punishment for us allowing gay marriage, or something.

735 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 8:30:18pm

re: #729 Aceofwhat?

interesting discussion we had the other night, though. i don't know if i made things better or worse. i tried...

Well, she was quote-mining, but you made a good showing. I like you.

736 Basho  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 8:32:01pm

Looks like global warming makes people hot-headed.
(Get it?!?)

737 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 8:41:38pm

re: #736 Basho

Welcome back... you've been quiet for a while.

738 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 9:00:14pm

re: #634 LudwigVanQuixote

By the way... Chaos is my field.

re: #643 Cato the Elder

No, that's the organization you work for. Iceweasel told me.


Chaos is his game and the name is Bond. Ionic Bond.

I do hope this puts the issue of LVQ's identity to rest. /
I.C.E.W.E.A.S.E.L. 9000 concluding transmission.

739 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 9:02:25pm

re: #736 Basho

Looks like global warming makes people hot-headed.
(Get it?!?)

Heh. Good to see you, Basho. Some good news from people fighting the good fight in the UK :

Furious backlash from Simon Singh libel case puts chiropractors on ropes

One in four chiropractors in Britain are under investigation as a result of campaign by Singh supporters, reveals Martin Robbins

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

740 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:25:54am

re: #151 Obdicut

The methane outgassing means that the more pessimistic outlooks should be adopted, which do result in billions dead.

What have you read, exactly, Walter? I've seen plenty of studies that show that, if the worst-case scenarios-- like dramatic methane outgassing-- occurr, that billions will die. How have you manged to miss the implications of things like 3 billion people having to move or starve due to climate change?

[Link: www.newscientist.com...]

restated for emphasis.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
3 weeks ago
Views: 360 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1