Another Outrageous Outrage of the Day Bites the Dust

Wingnuts • Views: 2,845

Yesterday I received several hate mails from those odd people who are desperate to find evidence that I’m “abandoning Israel” (I’m not, but since they can’t find that evidence they’ll just assume it’s true anyway), raving about a story published in Israeli tabloid Maariv claiming that Israeli nuclear scientists are being denied US visas.

Here’s one of those lovely emails, from a banned user using the email address “estherheyman@gmail.com” (get it? Esther and Haman?):

Your anti-Semitic hero is finally aggressing against the Middle East nuclear program he finds objectionable:

[Quote from Maariv article…]

Let’s see you print that one, Goebbels. Oh, that’s right. You deftly avoid printing all stories about Obama’s pathological Jew hatred.

Now I’m Goebbels too! I must be the only blogger who’s been accused of being just like Hitler, Goebbels, and Hitler’s mistress Eva Braun. Not to mention Stalin, Pol Pot, Jim Jones, Boy George, and Tiger Woods. OK, I’m kidding about Tiger Woods.

Be that as it may, there’s a reason why I didn’t post this story: because I’ve become completely jaded about these ridiculous “outrageous Obama outrage of the day” stories that never turn out to be true. (These days I’m going through several sets of AA Lithium batteries a week for the LGF-Acme BS Detector.) I don’t even bother looking into this stuff any more, because the stories are always either distorted beyond belief or completely false.

This one falls into the “completely false” category: White House denies Israeli visa story.

Imagine, if you will, my overwhelming flabbergastedness.

The White House is denying a story in the Israeli newspaper Maariv, gaining traction today on the right, that Israeli nuclear scientists have been denied visas to visit the United States. …

But White House spokesman Bill Burton flatly denied the report of a change to U.S. visa policy.

UPDATE: National Jewish Democratic Council CEO Ira Forman says in an email statement that he’s checked with Israeli officials, who told him “Israel does not perceive any change in the U.S. policy regarding this matter.”

Of course, being the Goebbels-Hitler-Braun thing that I am, I just might be making this up, and Obama is actually a Jew-hating cousin of Josef Mengele, twice-removed, who is diabolically denying visas to Israeli scientists and somehow preventing every media outlet in the world except Maariv from finding out.

But probably not.

One of those who swallowed this tabloid hooey hook, line, and sinker is Roger L. Simon, my former partner in Pajamas Media, whose BS Detector could use a major tune-up to compensate for his raging case of Obama Derangement Syndrome.

Jump to bottom

489 comments
1 darthstar  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:04:47pm

You used to work for Pyjamas media?

2 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:05:45pm

Well said Charles.

Moving on since we're burning Daylight here at all LGF I'll once again be a broken record and say that to bring all the Virgina stuff we talked about to a proper end we should probably have a thread on Jon Stewart's Union Appreciation Month Sketch...

3 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:06:13pm

"It's not a lie if you believe it".

-George Costanza

4 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:06:55pm
One of those who swallowed this tabloid hooey hook, line, and sinker is Roger L. Simon, my former partner in Pajamas Media, whose BS Detector could use a serious tune-up to compensate for his raging case of Obama Derangement Syndrome.

Really sad about Roger, I used to respect him.

5 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:07:24pm

re: #1 darthstar

You used to work for Pyjamas media?

Didn't just work for them. I was a co-founder.

6 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:09:06pm

OT:

That right wing hooey sure stunk up the joint....

7 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:09:40pm

re: #5 Charles

Didn't just work for them. I was a co-founder.

Well I'm sure now you know how Trotsky felt, in the sense that you helped found a system that is now turning against you...

8 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:11:27pm
I don’t even bother looking into this stuff any more, because the stories are always either distorted beyond belief or completely false.


I gave up too. It's just pointless to bother looking into anything making the rounds on right wing sites these days. None of it is true.

9 darthstar  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:12:14pm

re: #5 Charles

Didn't just work for them. I was a co-founder.

Sorry to hear one of your creations turned sour.

10 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:13:51pm

I think Roger Simon needs to have that hokey old hat of his thoroughly tested. There seems to be an IQ-reducer hidden in there somewhere.

11 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:14:53pm

re: #5 Charles

Didn't just work for them. I was a co-founder.

You need the new Falcon's Wing Frenzy Power Gatherer for you BS Detector. It works by drawing on the energy given off by wingnuts when these stories drive them into a frenzy. That's right stalkers, this power gatherer literally feeds off of the life energy you've been wasting. MUWAHAHAHA!

////

12 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:15:19pm

You know, I come to learn. There's a lot of stuff I don't know about Israel and it's politics with the US. I want to learn. When this meme of how horrible horrible horrible Obama is comes up, it appears to me to be based on supposition and the magic eight ball. Since this article and reference to it was posted several times, it's not making it any easier.

13 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:15:42pm

re: #7 jamesfirecat

Well I'm sure now you know how Trotsky felt, in the sense that you helped found a system that is now turning against you...

Revolutions do tend to eat their children. And I really do think a lot of what Charles has done for journalism, especially on the web is revolutionary.

14 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:17:16pm

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

You need the new Falcon's Wing Frenzy Power Gatherer for you BS Detector. It works by drawing on the energy given off by wingnuts when these stories drive them into a frenzy. That's right stalkers, this power gatherer literally feeds off of the life energy you've been wasting. MUWAHAHAHA!

///

Oooh, where can I get one of those? And, does it have to be stored in a basement, or will a closet do?

15 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:18:29pm

most *news* sites/stations need an independent second source to run a story - if all avenues lead back to the same point of origin, it doesn't (or shouldn't) make the cut.

16 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:18:57pm
17 Lidane  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:19:21pm

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

You need the new Falcon's Wing Frenzy Power Gatherer for you BS Detector. It works by drawing on the energy given off by wingnuts when these stories drive them into a frenzy. That's right stalkers, this power gatherer literally feeds off of the life energy you've been wasting. MUWAHAHAHA!

///

You should patent that and sell it to the gubmint for an obscene no-bid contract. With that kind of power source, we'll be free from fossil fuels within a year!

18 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:19:28pm

re: #15 wozzablog

most *news* sites/stations need an independent second source to run a story - if all avenues lead back to the same point of origin, it doesn't (or shouldn't) make the cut.

bingo. when this didn't go farther than Maaretz after 8 hours, a lot of us started holding our noses, IIRC...

19 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:19:45pm

re: #15 wozzablog

most *news* sites/stations need an independent second source to run a story - if all avenues lead back to the same point of origin, it doesn't (or shouldn't) make the cut.

Especially when it is hard to differentiate these days between news and opinion. Often often an opinion piece is linked as "news"

20 darthstar  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:21:12pm

re: #2 jamesfirecat

Well said Charles.

Moving on since we're burning Daylight here at all LGF I'll once again be a broken record and say that to bring all the Virgina stuff we talked about to a proper end we should probably have a thread on Jon Stewart's Union Appreciation Month Sketch...

I finally went and watched that...pretty good.

21 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:21:21pm

re: #14 Floral Giraffe

Oooh, where can I get one of those? And, does it have to be stored in a basement, or will a closet do?

It actually has a pretty big space requirement. For the Lizard Bunker beneath Denver International, we were able to integrate the collection arrays into the radar systems. More the Lizard Lair in California, we had to build the arrays into the local power line towers. This actual works better, because so many wingnuts' houses are located under the power lines to begin with.

/

22 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:21:45pm

re: #20 darthstar

I finally went and watched that...pretty good.

Yes I found it to be hilarious, if only because of the great implications of it, I loved the civil war chess set with half the pieces on fire....

23 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:21:57pm

re: #12 Stanley Sea

That's a very good point, Stanely. People attacking Obama constantly over Israel are losing any chance they have to make a reasonable case of why Obama is fucking up on the Israel issue; it all just becomes a constant hot wind.

24 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:22:25pm

re: #19 Stanley Sea

yup. unless an opinion piece mentions specifically fruitful enquiries made by the author - also a nix.

25 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:22:35pm

re: #23 Obdicut

That's a very good point, Stanely. People attacking Obama constantly over Israel are losing any chance they have to make a reasonable case of why Obama is fucking up on the Israel issue; it all just becomes a constant hot wind.

Or dare I say it.... a lot of Hot Air....

26 zeir  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:22:49pm

It bodes evil for the cohesiveness of the Jewish community when all these urban legends start flying around. While the community is busy chasing these delusions, they will get end run.

Also, "Esther Heymann" was a side player in 9/11 with flight 93. Some relation?

27 The Curmudgeon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:23:18pm

Charles says:

I’ve become completely jaded about these ridiculous “outrageous Obama outrage of the day” stories that never turn out to be true.

I hear that Obama is planning to surrender the Earth to the Martians. I'm not vouching for this, but he's been bowing to the Martians, so this one has a lot of credibility.

28 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:24:04pm

re: #23 Obdicut

That's a very good point, Stanely. People attacking Obama constantly over Israel are losing any chance they have to make a reasonable case of why Obama is fucking up on the Israel issue; it all just becomes a constant hot wind.


to summarise from elsewhere...........


WOLF WOLF WOLF!!!!!!!!!

no, seriously, this time, really, theres a wolf outside...... yeah, no, this time, for sure...............

29 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:24:19pm

re: #27 The Curmudgeon

Charles says:

I hear that Obama is planning to surrender the Earth to the Martians. I'm not vouching for this, but he's been bowing to the Martians, so this one has a lot of credibility.

"I want the American people to know that they still have two out of the three branches of government working for them...and that ain't bad!"

30 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:25:09pm

re: #23 Obdicut

That's a very good point, Stanely. People attacking Obama constantly over Israel are losing any chance they have to make a reasonable case of why Obama is fucking up on the Israel issue; it all just becomes a constant hot wind.

Cry wolf syndrome of the blogs.

I do know that there are some very smart CALM lizards who's word I can believe.

31 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:25:31pm

re: #29 Aceofwhat?

"I want the American people to know that they still have two out of the three branches of government working for them...and that ain't bad!"


chuck norris and the a-team?.................

32 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:26:02pm

re: #31 wozzablog

chuck norris and the a-team?...

Jack Nicholson...Mars Attacks!

33 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:26:35pm

Charles you are over a lot of targets considering all the ... !

34 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:26:49pm
35 zeir  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:27:16pm

I think "cry wolf" is an instant classic!

36 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:27:26pm

re: #31 wozzablog

chuck norris and the a-team?...

It's from a movie called Mars Attacks!. It is spoken by Jack Nicholson, one of whose two roles in the movie is the President. He says that after Congress is slaughtered by the Martians.

37 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:27:26pm

re: #32 Aceofwhat?

i have not seen that movie in far too many years.

ah, slim whitman saving the earth.................... (for simpler times back then)

38 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:27:45pm

re: #28 wozzablog

to summarise from elsewhere...

WOLF WOLF WOLF!!!

no, seriously, this time, really, theres a wolf outside... yeah, no, this time, for sure...

"Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolfity wolf. Wolf wolf, wolfo wolfy wolf wolf wolf. Wolf? Wolf!" -Attributed to Wolf Lord Egil Ironwolf, On the intricacies of tactical warfare.

39 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:27:47pm

re: #36 Dark_Falcon

Can't we all just..... get along?

41 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:28:40pm
42 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:30:06pm
43 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:32:02pm

good night everybody.

44 Racer X  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:32:55pm

Victorian Organ Command Desk

Freaking awesome!

45 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:33:00pm

re: #43 wozzablog

good night everybody.

Goodnight wozza, you lovable liberal you! ;)

46 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:34:15pm

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

*feeling the love*

(group hug)

:-p

47 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:34:39pm

re: #41 Ojoe

The Canyons of the San Gabriel Mountains. Towercam.

Sanity break.

BBL

Clear, sunny, 54 degrees.
Looks absolutely perfect.

48 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:35:13pm

re: #42 Thanos

OT:

[Video]

Nice.

49 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:36:11pm

re: #47 reine.de.tout

Clear, sunny, 54 degrees.
Looks absolutely perfect.

it's 70 degrees in ABQ, dry, and the western sky is on fire as the sun sets...typical

50 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:36:45pm

re: #44 Racer X

Victorian Organ Command Desk

Freaking awesome!

Indeed!
The door too,

51 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:37:33pm

re: #49 albusteve


Hi Steve! Been waiting to tell you, buying tix tomorrow for a Jackson Browne & David Lindley show this summer. Yeah!

52 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:37:38pm
53 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:38:35pm

re: #44 Racer X

Victorian Organ Command Desk

Freaking awesome!

that's just plain high art...a masterpiece

54 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:38:36pm
55 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:38:59pm

re: #49 albusteve

it's 70 degrees in ABQ, dry, and the western sky is on fire as the sun sets...typical

Photo?
Really- post a photo for us sometime.

56 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:39:31pm

re: #44 Racer X

Victorian Organ Command Desk

Freaking awesome!

Isn't that the thing you slip Ryan's DNA card keycard into after you kill him?

57 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:39:44pm

re: #51 Stanley Sea

Hi Steve! Been waiting to tell you, buying tix tomorrow for a Jackson Browne & David Lindley show this summer. Yeah!

what's Lindley up to?, that old goof....he's a real piece of work, that one

58 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:39:51pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

The German Press Council reported that some 100 formal complaints have been filed since the magazine came out, a level of protest not seen since 2006, when German newspaper Die Welt reprinted the infamous Danish Mohammed cartoons.

Two criminal complaints have also been filed against the cartoonist and the editors of Titanic, claiming the picture slanders their religion. The state prosecutors office in Frankfurt, where Titanic is based, said it would decide next week whether to begin an investigation against the magazine.


Ugh.

59 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:40:28pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

wow

60 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:40:35pm

Whee!
OT but I got the headsup here, so I'll mention it here.

Got my call back from the Census Bureau today. I get trained as an enumerator for 4 days at the end of the month then get about 8 weeks of 20 hour weeks of pavement pounding for $13 an hour. So thank you, once again, to the Lizard who mentioned the testing that was being done.

William

61 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:40:46pm

re: #49 albusteve

it's 70 degrees in ABQ, dry, and the western sky is on fire as the sun sets...typical

It was about 15 degrees cooler than that in Chicago today, but it was a fine day. The daffodils were out at the Botanical Gardens, as were some crocuses and magnolias. Lovely.

62 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:41:22pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Catholics outraged over German cartoon

They are awaiting the second cumming.

(sorry, couldn't help it)

63 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:41:48pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Catholics outraged over German cartoon

A German cartoon mocking the Catholic Church has sparked holy outrage among believers here who say it incites hatred against the Pope and the Catholic faith.

Very poor taste?
Yes.

Incites hatred against the Pope and the Catholic Faith?
Perhaps the Church needs to review its own actions to see where that's coming from.

Just my .02

64 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:41:51pm

re: #44 Racer X

You should go to their open house, if you're in the neighborhood!

65 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:42:00pm

re: #57 albusteve

what's Lindley up to?, that old goof...he's a real piece of work, that one

I saw him 2 years ago. He is a trip, no doubt. But he brings a quiver of many different guitars and rocks. I'm looking forward to a reminisce (who knows, don't count on it) of the old songs they did together.

66 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:42:00pm

re: #44 Racer X

Totally freaking awesome. Zeppelin track lights too. I want some.

67 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:42:24pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Catholics outraged over German cartoon

That's pretty damn crude.

68 abbyadams  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:42:55pm

re: #62 Conservative Moonbat

I was going to say something about Pope Benedict is finally going down.

Actually, I typed that to a friend today and they wrote back and said something to the effect of, um...read, THEN hit send?

69 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:43:04pm

OT

Justin King medley

70 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:43:46pm

re: #55 reine.de.tout

Photo?
Really- post a photo for us sometime.

as you well know, NM is the sunlight capital of this entire hemisphere...when the light is just right the Sandia Mts behind me glow a hot pink color for maybe ten minutes or so when the sun goes down...very impressive....everything out here is in constant flux, always changing color

71 abbyadams  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:43:55pm

re: #67 Aceofwhat?

Agreed.

72 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:44:43pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Catholics outraged over German cartoon

That cartoon is truly over the line. I've been a firm as any in the need for the Catholic Church to come clean and reform, but that cartoon is an insult to all Christians and indeed to Christianity itself. Its author should be shunned as should the editor who cleared it, unless they apologize.

73 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:44:46pm

re: #63 reine.de.tout

Very poor taste?
Yes.

Incites hatred against the Pope and the Catholic Faith?
Perhaps the Church needs to review its own actions to see where that's coming from.

Just my .02

You know, it gives me no joy at all to report on these Catholic Church pederasty stories. But this ugliness needs to come out into the open, because it's incredibly clear that the conspiracy of silence has contributed to uncountable numbers of children being damaged for life.

74 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:44:54pm

re: #71 abbyadams

Agreed.

...at the same time, #68 was funny...heh

75 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:45:56pm

re: #72 Dark_Falcon

That cartoon is truly over the line. I've been a firm as any in the need for the Catholic Church to come clean and reform, but that cartoon is an insult to all Christians and indeed to Christianity itself. Its author should be shunned as should the editor who cleared it, unless they apologize.

Ummm... did you feel this way about the Mohammed cartoon?

76 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:47:04pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

It was about 15 degrees cooler than that in Chicago today, but it was a fine day. The daffodils were out at the Botanical Gardens, as were some crocuses and magnolias. Lovely.

I dig an urban environment...Chicago is utterly spectacular in the spring and summer....the water and the skyline etc, the beautiful parks...world class bro...people that have never visited Chicago have no clue...it rivals NYC in many ways imo

77 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:47:29pm

re: #73 Charles

You know, it gives me no joy at all to report on these Catholic Church pederasty stories. But this ugliness needs to come out into the open, because it's incredibly clear that the conspiracy of silence has contributed to uncountable numbers of children being damaged for life.

Charles, I agree.
And I know many who agree with me.

78 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:47:29pm
I must be the only blogger who’s been accused of being just like Hitler, Goebbels, and Hitler’s mistress Eva Braun. Not to mention Stalin, Pol Pot, Jim Jones,
Boy George

, and Tiger Woods.

Boy George?

79 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:47:41pm

re: #75 JasonA

Ummm... did you feel this way about the Mohammed cartoon?

Who was Mohammed fellating?

80 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:48:33pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Catholics outraged over German cartoon

Wow and its on the cover and everything..... (it is on the cover isn't it?)

81 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:48:36pm

re: #73 Charles

You know, it gives me no joy at all to report on these Catholic Church pederasty stories. But this ugliness needs to come out into the open, because it's incredibly clear that the conspiracy of silence has contributed to uncountable numbers of children being damaged for life.

Amen.

82 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:48:45pm

re: #72 Dark_Falcon

That cartoon is truly over the line. I've been a firm as any in the need for the Catholic Church to come clean and reform, but that cartoon is an insult to all Christians and indeed to Christianity itself. Its author should be shunned as should the editor who cleared it, unless they apologize.

I think the Catholic church is very much in need of some insulting. Its very clear to me they overestimate their wordily power. But that's just my opinion.

83 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:48:52pm

re: #75 JasonA

Ummm... did you feel this way about the Mohammed cartoon?

No, but I react differently when its my own ox being gored.

84 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:48:57pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

We lived in the Chicago suburbs for a bit when I was small. My dad would grab my mom and dance her around the kitchen singing "I saw a man, he danced with his wife."

85 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:49:28pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

No, but I react differently when its my own ox being gored.

Upding for honesty.

86 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:50:02pm

OT

/btw I have Itunes on shuffle and I'm just posting what's playing here.

87 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:50:02pm

re: #75 JasonA

Nope. Then again I haven't heard anyone from the Catholic church calling for the author of that cartoon to have their heads cut off either.
The silence and cover up of the Catholic church is totally unforgiveable IMO.

88 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:50:07pm

re: #73 Charles

You know, it gives me no joy at all to report on these Catholic Church pederasty stories. But this ugliness needs to come out into the open, because it's incredibly clear that the conspiracy of silence has contributed to uncountable numbers of children being damaged for life.

THIS CHART

I first saw on Andrew Sullivan' blog (it's on many others) has really stuck in my mind. It shows the huge decrease of reporting of incidents over the past few years. The reports have gone down so swiftly it really makes you think coverup/silence.

Check out the chart.

89 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:50:32pm

re: #65 Stanley Sea

I saw him 2 years ago. He is a trip, no doubt. But he brings a quiver of many different guitars and rocks. I'm looking forward to a reminisce (who knows, don't count on it) of the old songs they did together.

two real pros...should be a good show...I'm not a big Brown fan, but I met him once and he is a huge Feat fan so that's cool....Lindley is a treasure

90 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:51:23pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Catholics outraged over German cartoon

I'm not a Catholic but, that is beyond the pale.

91 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:51:26pm

re: #88 Stanley Sea

THIS CHART

I first saw on Andrew Sullivan' blog (it's on many others) has really stuck in my mind. It shows the huge decrease of reporting of incidents over the past few years. The reports have gone down so swiftly it really makes you think coverup/silence.

Check out the chart.

It's been going on for centuries.

92 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:51:55pm

re: #88 Stanley Sea

THIS CHART

I first saw on Andrew Sullivan' blog (it's on many others) has really stuck in my mind. It shows the huge decrease of reporting of incidents over the past few years. The reports have gone down so swiftly it really makes you think coverup/silence.

Check out the chart.

Lets be fair, did the Catholic Church start doing anything differently in the 1960's which could have lead to those lower numbers?

Of course if it didn't... then I think Ratzy's got some more spanning to do....

93 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:52:03pm

I keep saying this: there are worst things than the pederasty scandal, among them the "abstinence in Africa" to fight AIDs campaign.
I've posted the Thunderfoot vid on that subject enough so I won't again.

94 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:53:26pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

No, but I react differently when its my own ox being gored.

Upding for honesty, DF.

William

95 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:53:34pm

Yeah. People had the nerve to report for awhile there, but then they decided to save their parish instead. It's all just so ugly.

96 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:54:02pm

re: #91 Charles

It's been going on for centuries.

Silence enforces compliance.

97 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:54:05pm

re: #85 McSpiff

Upding for honesty.

Thanks.

98 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:54:16pm

re: #82 McSpiff

I think the Catholic church is very much in need of some insulting. Its very clear to me they overestimate their wordily power. But that's just my opinion.

mine too...they have made their bed and now all bets and other reserved behavior is off the table...I wish I was head inquirer into the sex mess...I guarantee you people would go down...the CC doesn't intimidate everybody, least of all me...I'd take a SWAT team into the Vatican and start hauling these people out into the light

99 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:54:25pm

re: #82 McSpiff

I think the Catholic church is very much in need of some insulting. Its very clear to me they overestimate their wordily power. But that's just my opinion.

On one hand, that was insulting to more than just Catholics. Clumsy stuff.

On the other hand, i'm not that offended. Either there is no God, and there's nothing to get worked up about, or there is a God (but not the one I believe in) and there's nothing to get worked up about, or the God I believe in does exist...and the illustrator is in for an interesting encounter one of these eons.

Either way, it'll resolve itself without any violence on my part.

100 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:54:27pm

re: #87 pingjockey

Nope. Then again I haven't heard anyone from the Catholic church calling for the author of that cartoon to have their heads cut off either.
The silence and cover up of the Catholic church is totally unforgiveable IMO.

I was only commenting on DF's reaction to the situation.

101 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:54:34pm

OT:
I Could Die for You

102 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:54:58pm

I know I'm going to get crucified for this but I laughed my ass off when I saw the expression on Jesus's face in that cartoon.

103 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:55:45pm

re: #79 rwdflynavy

Who was Mohammed fellating?

No one. He just had a bomb on his head. Amazing how violence is less offensive to you than sex.

104 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:55:54pm

re: #92 jamesfirecat

Lets be fair, did the Catholic Church start doing anything differently in the 1960's which could have lead to those lower numbers?

Of course if it didn't... then I think Ratzy's got some more spanning to do...

I see that chart more in the huge drop off. I don't for a minute believe the instances dropped off so much.

105 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:55:56pm

re: #87 pingjockey

Nope. Then again I haven't heard anyone from the Catholic church calling for the author of that cartoon to have their heads cut off either.
The silence and cover up of the Catholic church is totally unforgiveable IMO.

the CC is stunned...don't expect anything coherent to come from the Vatican

106 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:56:04pm

re: #102 b_sharp

I know I'm going to get crucified for this but I laughed my ass off when I saw the expression on Jesus's face in that cartoon.

why? you're not required to be offended. no problems here:)

107 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:56:29pm

re: #103 JasonA

No one. He just had a bomb on his head. Amazing how violence is less offensive to you than sex.

Not as amazing as that leap you just made!

108 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:56:44pm

re: #100 JasonA

I was only commenting on DF's reaction to the situation.

Fair enough. It was an appropriate question.

109 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:57:04pm

re: #88 Stanley Sea

THIS CHART

I first saw on Andrew Sullivan' blog (it's on many others) has really stuck in my mind. It shows the huge decrease of reporting of incidents over the past few years. The reports have gone down so swiftly it really makes you think coverup/silence.

Check out the chart.

The chart, as presented, doesn't say much. (It might as part of the original study.) The interpretation block confuses homosexual/pedophile, again. The chart also seems to overlook the simple reduction in the number of priests since the 60s.

110 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:57:09pm

OT:

Ferry Cross the Mersey

111 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:57:10pm

re: #90 MandyManners

I'm not a Catholic but, that is beyond the pale.

too bad

112 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:57:15pm

re: #102 b_sharp

I know I'm going to get crucified for this but I laughed my ass off when I saw the expression on Jesus's face in that cartoon.

You don't know the first thing about crucifixion, asshole.

113 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:57:48pm

re: #100 JasonA
Ah. It's offensive to Christians and especially Catholics, that said if your faith is shallow enough to go into conniptions over cartoons, however vile you need to re-examine your strength of faith.

114 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:57:51pm

re: #91 Charles

It's been going on for centuries.

I'd be happier if they would have been dealing with the problem longer than they have been denying the problem.

115 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:57:53pm

re: #99 Aceofwhat?

On one hand, that was insulting to more than just Catholics. Clumsy stuff.

On the other hand, i'm not that offended. Either there is no God, and there's nothing to get worked up about, or there is a God (but not the one I believe in) and there's nothing to get worked up about, or the God I believe in does exist...and the illustrator is in for an interesting encounter one of these eons.

Either way, it'll resolve itself without any violence on my part.

I suspect God has much more love for those who would mock and satirize those who for centuries have used their stature and power to abuse the most vulnerable in society, but again, that's just my opinion.

116 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:58:07pm

re: #112 MandyManners

You don't know the first thing about crucifixion, asshole.

But you do?
LOL

117 darthstar  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:58:11pm

Something tells me Thanos wants a music thread.

Here are some Helicopters for the tin-foil crowd (this song fuckin' rocks)

118 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:58:20pm

re: #102 b_sharp

I don't find it at all funny, but you've got the right to have your own opinions and you can find what you want funny. I don't agree with you on this, but as long as we both respect each other it'll be OK.

119 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:58:29pm

re: #103 JasonA

No one. He just had a bomb on his head. Amazing how violence is less offensive to you than sex.

One of them i can explain to my 7-yr old. The other I cannot.

Amazing? Hardly. But whatever. It's clumsy and crude but not exactly affecting my blood pressure. I'm not worked up about it and Muslims need to calm the fuck down too.

120 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:58:40pm

re: #103 JasonA

No one. He just had a bomb on his head. Amazing how violence is less offensive to you than sex.

Not to worry, I won't riot or kill any atheists over this cartoon!

121 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:59:12pm

re: #105 albusteve
I highly doubt the Vatican spin machine can keep up with damn tragedy. Tragedy for the victims that is.

122 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:59:38pm

re: #118 Dark_Falcon

I don't find it at all funny, but you've got the right to have your own opinions and you can find what you want funny. I don't agree with you on this, but as long as we both respect each other it'll be OK.

D_F, I'm afraid that every once in a while my atheism surfaces in the strangest ways.

123 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:59:47pm

re: #90 MandyManners

I'm not a Catholic but, that is beyond the pale.

Don't think the cartoonist didn't know it.

124 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:59:51pm

re: #107 rwdflynavy

Not as amazing as that leap you just made!

Oh.
re: #79 rwdflynavy

Who was Mohammed fellating?


Why did you ask me this? I'm pretty sure you knew damn well he wasn't fellating anyone.

125 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 6:59:56pm

re: #103 JasonA

No one. He just had a bomb on his head. Amazing how violence is less offensive to you than sex.

Welcome to America!

126 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:00:04pm

re: #121 pingjockey

I highly doubt the Vatican spin machine can keep up with damn tragedy. Tragedy for the victims that is.

the Pope will be in chains when it's over...figuratively

127 Racer X  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:00:05pm

re: #118 Dark_Falcon

I don't find it at all funny, but you've got the right to have your own opinions and you can find what you want funny. I don't agree with you on this, but as long as we both respect each other it'll be OK.

DF - you are a good egg.

128 darthstar  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:00:09pm

And a little Particle (with Joe Satriani sitting in)

129 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:00:28pm

re: #75 JasonA

Ummm... did you feel this way about the Mohammed cartoon?

Which cartoon? There were many that caused the Islamists to raise hell. In fact, they're still raising hell to this day. Remember Jihad Jane?

130 sattv4u2  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:00:41pm

re: #119 Aceofwhat?

One of them i can explain to my 7-yr old. The other I cannot.

Amazing? Hardly. But whatever. It's clumsy and crude but not exactly affecting my blood pressure. I'm not worked up about it and Muslims need to calm the fuck down too.

I'm Catholic and I just shrugged at it (the crucifixion/ fellatio 'cartoon" in question)

131 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:00:42pm

KT Tunstall - Little Favors

132 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:01:28pm

re: #96 MandyManners

Silence enforces compliance.

"Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented".

133 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:01:33pm

re: #126 albusteve

the Pope will be in chains when it's over...figuratively

I'd be happy to see him stuck in his gilded cage. Stupid sovereign immunity.

134 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:01:48pm

re: #116 b_sharp

But you do?
LOL

Did I say I dd?

Piss-poor attempt to put words into my mouth.

135 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:01:54pm

Steve - it's like a 10 minute youtube, but it's my favorite (Jackson & David L.)

136 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:02:10pm

re: #96 MandyManners

Silence enforces compliance.

The phrase you're groping for is, I believe, "silence implies consent".

You're so cute when you try to look erudite.

137 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:02:13pm

re: #115 McSpiff

I suspect God has much more love for those who would mock and satirize help and care for those who have been for centuries have used their stature and power to abused and the most vulnerable in society, but again, that's just my opinion.

FTFYIMHO

I think you overestimate the helpful power of "mock and satirize". I think God wants me to help people. Usually when I mock people, there's a tinge of arrogance that i doubt is in keeping with the humility I believe is expected of me.

But I respect your opinion on this. I claim to know God well at my own peril...

138 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:02:26pm

re: #129 MandyManners

Which cartoon? There were many that caused the Islamists to raise hell. In fact, they're still raising hell to this day. Remember Jihad Jane?

Uh huh. I wonder if your comments made it clear that you found those cartoons "beyond the pale" back then.

139 Racer X  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:02:45pm

re: #131 Thanos

Really enjoying the 'Thanos music show' tonight btw.

Thanks!

140 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:03:18pm

re: #120 rwdflynavy

Not to worry, I won't riot or kill any atheists over this cartoon!

Nor will you riot or kill Animists, Buddhists, Jews or Muslims.

141 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:04:07pm

re: #123 researchok

Don't think the cartoonist didn't know it.

No excuse.

Is there a cartoon out there showing Mohammed screwing Aisha when she was six?

142 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:04:13pm

She is Love

143 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:04:59pm

re: #132 researchok

"Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented".

Hell ain't gonna' be hot enough.

144 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:05:24pm

re: #137 Aceofwhat?

FTFYIMHO

I think you overestimate the helpful power of "mock and satirize". I think God wants me to help people. Usually when I mock people, there's a tinge of arrogance that i doubt is in keeping with the humility I believe is expected of me.

But I respect your opinion on this. I claim to know God well at my own peril...

Totally respect that opinion too. I just find some people are simply too good at political satire and mockery for it not to be a God given gift. Note, this would not be an example of truly great satire...

145 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:05:38pm

re: #141 MandyManners

No excuse.

Is there a cartoon out there showing Mohammed screwing Aisha when she was six?

Bah. I'm over it. It's the least worst thing about this whole dark mess.

146 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:05:48pm

re: #133 McSpiff

I'd be happy to see him stuck in his gilded cage. Stupid sovereign immunity.

I'll go out on a Condell limb here and say the CC is the most brazen shakedown in the history of mankind...whatever ill wind blows there way, they brought it on themselves...to me the Pope is just a guy with a cool hat and a really fat bank account....maybe that's unfair but so be it

147 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:06:01pm

re: #138 JasonA

Uh huh. I wonder if your comments made it clear that you found those cartoons "beyond the pale" back then.

There is a difference.

The objection to the Danish cartoons was predicated on the idea that nothing the prophet ever did did or called for was objectionable.

In this case, the church deplores what happened. Their failure was in the dealing or not dealing with the offenders.

148 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:06:13pm

re: #144 McSpiff

Totally respect that opinion too. I just find some people are simply too good at political satire and mockery for it not to be a God given gift. Note, this would not be an example of truly great satire...

Now that made me laugh. Updinged. Good stuff-

149 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:06:19pm

re: #136 Cato the Elder

The phrase you're groping for is, I believe, "silence implies consent".

You're so cute when you try to look erudite.

Dude, She's just not that into you!
//

150 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:07:10pm

re: #141 MandyManners

I was agreeing with you.

As I noted in a comment above, there is a difference between the Mohammed cartoon and the one you referred to.

151 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:08:17pm

re: #136 Cato the Elder

The phrase you're groping for is, I believe, "silence implies consent".

You're so cute when you try to look erudite.

For once, I read your post.

You're wrong. That was not what I was "groping for".

But, interesting idea about "groping".

Re-engaging the GAZE gear.

152 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:09:22pm

re: #135 Stanley Sea

Steve - it's like a 10 minute youtube, but it's my favorite (Jackson & David L.)


[Video]

listening now...

153 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:09:59pm

Godley and Creme
Five O'clock in the Morning

154 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:11:42pm

re: #90 MandyManners

I'm not a Catholic but, that is beyond the pale.

Pretty offensive but it's supposed to be offensive. That's the whole point.

155 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:12:14pm

re: #121 pingjockey

I highly doubt the Vatican spin machine can keep up with damn tragedy. Tragedy for the victims that is.

The Vatican doesn't have spin machine, what it's got is a hundreds-years-old slow lumbering bureaucracy that takes forever to come to a conclusion about something, and then tends to reach the same conclusions that have been reached before, resulting in total inaction and in this case, IMO, lack of respect and concern for Church members and the victims of these crimes.

It needs a whack upside the head (and more), and I hope the publicity over these things serves as that whack.

156 sattv4u2  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:13:56pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

Pretty offensive but it's supposed to be offensive. That's the whole point.

Difference being, what will the reaction be even from the furthest fringe(s) of Catholics

157 Racer X  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:14:38pm

Radical muslims must be laughing their asses off right now.

158 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:15:30pm

These Days. David Lindley playing the violin

159 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:15:43pm

re: #157 Racer X

Radical muslims must be laughing their asses off right now.

I hear if you say that three times in the mirror Spare appears.

160 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:16:21pm

re: #155 reine.de.tout
Okay. Inrtia has come to equal spin machine I guess. they've said and did some stuff positively about the abuses, but it would seem the main body is still camped next to the Denial river.

161 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:16:32pm

re: #152 albusteve

listening now...

very nice...I love vids that pay attention to the playing...and a reminder, Lowell George taught both J Brown and Bonnie Raitt the nuances of the slide

162 William of Orange  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:16:50pm

Wanna know what really happened in the ACORN offices when O'Keefe and Giles visited?

Rachel Maddow has the unedited videos.

Which makes me wonder why no one will touch Fox news for participating in this scandal. This is downright criminal. I do have to reserve a bit cause I don't know to what extend they were aware of the unedited footage. O'Keefe is really the scum of the earth. He doesn't need a pimp suit to make his point.

163 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:16:55pm

re: #159 McSpiff

I hear if you say that three times in the mirror Spare appears.

That is some scary S***!!!!
//

164 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:17:32pm

re: #156 sattv4u2

Difference being, what will the reaction be even from the furthest fringe(s) of Catholics

ah, who cares?...it's a jungle out there

165 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:17:44pm

re: #102 b_sharp
The cartoonist knew there was a murky bottom on the laugh-o-meter, and he went for it.

166 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:17:53pm

re: #155 reine.de.tout

It needs a whack upside the head (and more), and I hope the publicity over these things serves as that whack.

I don't see much hope of the Church getting a clue. Churches in Europe sitting empty or being sold. In another 40 years or so the Catholic church will be like the old European aristocracy. Some of them keep their castles and have some money but they aren't culturally of politically relevant.

167 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:18:06pm

I used to care when people did things offensive to the christian religion, but with all the culture warriors, christian militias, popes above the law, text book and historical revisionism, atheist bashing, gay bashing, and political hackery I no longer jump up to defend them. They need to clean their own house before they deserve my respect again.

168 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:19:04pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

Pretty offensive but it's supposed to be offensive. That's the whole point.

The picture is offensive, but not nearly as offensive as what has happened to hundreds of children at the hands of those they've been taught to trust and respect.

A crime against an innocent, vulnerable child, particularly crimes of the nature of these, particularly by people in positions of authority and trust, is a straight one-way ticket to hell. Or should be.

169 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:19:08pm

re: #167 Thanos

I think I'd be more upset if I saw a cartoon of Elmer Fudd buggering Bugs Bunny.

170 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:19:18pm

re: #161 albusteve

I haven't been to a show (any show) in awhile. I'm really excited for this.

171 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:19:48pm

re: #166 Killgore Trout

I don't see much hope of the Church getting a clue. Churches in Europe sitting empty or being sold. In another 40 years or so the Catholic church will be like the old European aristocracy. Some of them keep their castles and have some money but they aren't culturally of politically relevant.

welcome to the Catholic Church Bed and Breakfast web page!
or whatever

172 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:20:00pm

re: #169 JasonA

I think I'd be more upset if I saw a cartoon of Elmer Fudd buggering Bugs Bunny.

Blasphemy! He never caught Bugs. Everyone knows that, and i'll kill the first person who disagrees!

173 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:20:22pm

re: #162 William of Orange

Wanna know what really happened in the ACORN offices when O'Keefe and Giles visited?

Rachel Maddow has the unedited videos.

Which makes me wonder why no one will touch Fox news for participating in this scandal. This is downright criminal. I do have to reserve a bit cause I don't know to what extend they were aware of the unedited footage. O'Keefe is really the scum of the earth. He doesn't need a pimp suit to make his point.

Thank you for posting this.

174 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:20:24pm

re: #166 Killgore Trout

I don't see much hope of the Church getting a clue. Churches in Europe sitting empty or being sold. In another 40 years or so the Catholic church will be like the old European aristocracy. Some of them keep their castles and have some money but they aren't culturally of politically relevant.

ah, hell.
Please don't make me more upset than I already am.

175 Racer X  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:20:24pm

re: #169 JasonA

I think I'd be more upset if I saw a cartoon of Elmer Fudd buggering Bugs Bunny.

I KEEL YOU!

176 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:20:41pm

re: #170 Stanley Sea

I haven't been to a show (any show) in awhile. I'm really excited for this.

get out and support you favorite artists!

177 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:20:43pm

re: #172 Aceofwhat?

Blasphemy! He never caught Bugs. Everyone knows that, and i'll kill the first person who disagrees!

I'm pretty sure he did, but Bugs always escaped, no?

178 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:21:26pm

re: #177 JasonA

I'm pretty sure he did, but Bugs always escaped, no?

certainly not long enough for any buggery!

179 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:21:57pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

Pretty offensive but it's supposed to be offensive. That's the whole point.

I don't believe in using the Son of God to score points against the Catholic church.

180 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:22:01pm

Let's not forget operation rescue, the Schiavo fiasco, Family values polticos cheating, religious conservatives full of corruption and on the take, and discovery institute's institutional lying for jesus.

181 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:22:03pm

re: #166 Killgore Trout

I don't see much hope of the Church getting a clue. Churches in Europe sitting empty or being sold. In another 40 years or so the Catholic church will be like the old European aristocracy. Some of them keep their castles and have some money but they aren't culturally of politically relevant.

I'd love to see the flow of money from North America to Rome cut off. Stop the wire transfers and use the money to pay for programs to help the victims. Abuse doesn't just affect one victim either. Think about the children growing up with alcoholic parents because of what a priest did decades ago, etc.

182 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:22:13pm

re: #167 Thanos

I used to care when people did things offensive to the christian religion, but with all the culture warriors, christian militias, popes above the law, text book and historical revisionism, atheist bashing, gay bashing, and political hackery I no longer jump up to defend them. They need to clean their own house before they deserve my respect again.

if you really want to send a message, withhold your funds

183 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:22:42pm

re: #182 albusteve

if you really want to send a message, withhold your funds

Exactly.

184 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:23:28pm

re: #179 MandyManners

I don't believe in using the Son of God to score points against the Catholic church.

Its too bad that the Catholic Church doesn't see anything wrong with using the Son of God to score political points...

185 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:23:57pm

re: #157 Racer X

Radical muslims must be laughing their asses off right now.

Or, Islamists are busy plotting their next Splodey-Dope attack or IED or Black Widow Debut or something similar.

186 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:24:03pm

re: #181 McSpiff

I'd love to see the flow of money from North America to Rome cut off. Stop the wire transfers and use the money to pay for programs to help the victims. Abuse doesn't just affect one victim either. Think about the children growing up with alcoholic parents because of what a priest did decades ago, etc.

Kinda like a reformation....in protest of what the Church is doing?
//

187 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:24:43pm

re: #182 albusteve

I'm an atheist - never gave them money. I mixed sound for a while for an Evangelical mega church in SF as a favor for a friend for a while, but that's the most besides vocal defense here and elsewhere that Christians have rec'd from me.

188 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:25:11pm

re: #184 McSpiff

Its too bad that the Catholic Church doesn't see anything wrong with using the Son of God to score political points...

it hurtz cuz itz truuu

190 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:25:43pm

re: #186 rwdflynavy

Kinda like a reformation...in protest of what the Church is doing?
//

Honestly, I wasn't smart enough to see that connection before I posted. I'm kind of embarrassed now, but that thanks for that moment of enlightenment...

191 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:26:48pm

re: #167 Thanos

I used to care when people did things offensive to the christian religion, but with all the culture warriors, christian militias, popes above the law, text book and historical revisionism, atheist bashing, gay bashing, and political hackery I no longer jump up to defend them. They need to clean their own house before they deserve my respect again.

Though I am a very poor and humble warrior, I will never stop defending Christ.

192 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:26:53pm

re: #188 Aceofwhat?

it hurtz cuz itz truuu

It does hurt.
It truly does.
My loyalty is to God and what's right, not to the Vatican or to the Pope.
A Catholic like Bill Donohue, on the other hand, seems to have his priorities totally screwed up.

193 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:27:01pm

re: #182 albusteve

Oh, you mean those bible thumping pols -- stopped giving them money since last election. I sent Dede Scozzafava and Charlie Crist money, but they are not hard core socons either.

194 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:27:39pm

re: #44 Racer X

Holy damn o_o

195 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:27:48pm

re: #187 Thanos

I'm an atheist - never gave them money. I mixed sound for a while for an Evangelical mega church in SF as a favor for a friend for a while, but that's the most besides vocal defense here and elsewhere that Christians have rec'd from me.

I'm a proponent of disorganized religion...but it's hard not to tip the church when those Methodists put on a bake sale...wowzer!

196 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:28:00pm

re: #189 Racer X

Taiwanese Boy nails Whitney Houston's "I Will Always Love You"


[Video]

If you haven't seen this vid. folks, you should. He does spectacularly well. This is the song at its best the way he does it.

197 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:28:11pm

re: #194 WindUpBird

Holy damn o_o

Know someone who could build something like that?

198 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:28:40pm

re: #191 MandyManners

From who? The pope? The Liars for Jaysus! The Frauds and the Scamsters in the Mega temples that milk the poor?

Those are the ones doing the harm

199 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:29:45pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Catholics outraged over German cartoon

Satire should sting.

200 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:30:13pm

re: #192 reine.de.tout

It does hurt.
It truly does.
My loyalty is to God and what's right, not to the Vatican or to the Pope.
A Catholic like Bill Donohue, on the other hand, seems to have his priorities totally screwed up.

You are the Catholic Church, my friend. My affection for Catholics has nothing to do with Rome. It's related to the warm, loving individuals I've met.

Conversely, the Church has become everything it despises in the eyes of far too many of those who needed the Church the most. You can't fix all of that, but you can keep loving and serving those around you, and in doing so, can do your part to set a little something right in this sad world.

Be encouraged. You know where to find your strength when you feel that you have none.

201 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:30:47pm

re: #193 Thanos

Oh, you mean those bible thumping pols -- stopped giving them money since last election. I sent Dede Scozzafava and Charlie Crist money, but they are not hard core socons either.

Vote for Christ!

I love saying that...it's funny every time...

202 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:30:51pm

There is absolutely no difference between the Mohammed cartoons and this Jesus/Pope cartoon.

Both were created to make a pointed and blatant statement about a religion and the consequences of that religion's practices.

The objections I see to the Pope cartoon are of the same type and just as visceral as those we saw when the Mohammed cartoons were released. Those trying to say this current cartoon is worse than the previous cartoons are simply wrong, the implicit 'dirty' 'homo' sex in the Pope cartoon is viewed by the faithful just as Muslim's viewed the Mohammed cartoons.

These cartoons are not objectionable because of what is depicted in an objective sense but in how the members of the religions view the depiction. Catholics were quite upset when PZ Myers threw a consecrated wafer into the garbage (he also threw a page from the Koran and Origin of Species in the same garbage) even though it was just a frakkin' cracker.

They were upset because of the significance they give this symbol of their belief, which they consider part of their being. This is exactly how Muslims reacted to the cartoons of Mohammed.

Claiming that the cartoon with the Pope and Jesus is essentially different and/or worse than the Mohammed cartoons is hypocritical and in some cases disingenuous. Either both have to be accepted or both have to be rejected to remain consistent.

203 captdiggs  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:31:05pm

re: #23 Obdicut

That's a very good point, Stanely. People attacking Obama constantly over Israel are losing any chance they have to make a reasonable case of why Obama is fucking up on the Israel issue; it all just becomes a constant hot wind.

The case has been made many times.
Some people just don't want to see it.
There are many aspects to Obam's stance on Israel and many actions that make it clear he is no friend of Israel's.
But, to make this somewhat short and concentrate on one overall aspect....
Obama is the one who made "settlements" the focus and a pre condition to talks between Israel and the palestinians. In all previous negotiations the settlements were considered part of those negotiations. The palestinians have never made the settlements a "pre" condition..until Obama did.
In doing this Obama handed the palestinians and all of Israel's arab neighbors a US approved escuse to not talk, to ratchet up the hate and rhetoric, and lessened any possibility of any, much less successful, negotiations.
In addition, by treating Israel as he has, including the 180 degree reversal on Israel's building in Jerusalem he damaged perhaps irreversibly any trust the Israelis might have had in him.

205 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:31:17pm

re: #197 reine.de.tout

Know someone who could build something like that?

Most of my friends who build stuff tend to work on costumes. Though there's these people I met at Norwescon who worked on Abney Park's instruments: Image: abney-park-guitar-350-350-100-350-70.jpg

206 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:31:23pm

re: #173 Stanley Sea
California was one site of the visits. Edited there or not, nothing changes the fact that ACORN employees were videotaped explaining just how to lie on applications for housing and hide the purpose of a business so that obtaining a mortgage wouldn't be so hard out there for a pimp.

207 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:32:10pm

re: #198 Thanos

From who? The pope? The Liars for Jaysus! The Frauds and the Scamsters in the Mega temples that milk the poor?

Those are the ones doing the harm

I have a feeling someone owns the Pope with regard to the sex ring scam...maybe I'm wrong

208 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:34:10pm

re: #206 tradewind

California was one site of the visits. Edited there or not, nothing changes the fact that ACORN employees were videotaped explaining just how to lie on applications for housing and hide the purpose of a business so that obtaining a mortgage wouldn't be so hard out there for a pimp.

You are Mr. Defender. Right or wrong, forget about it. Defend!

209 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:34:12pm

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. That there imperfect priests and imperfect church leaders is not in question. That there needs to be change and amends is also true.

That said the church continues to do and has done an extraordinary amount of good. Inner city schools, hospitals, relief and rescue work, etc, ad infinitum is a reality that cannot be overlooked. The has done far more good globally than most organizations. The church cannot and should not be dismissed because of the behaviors of the bad apples.

While it is easy to excoriate the church as hypocritical, the same can be said for those who claim to better people because they are not believers.

People are people. The are saints and sinners, princes and thieves in every corner of every society. Every corner.

That may be an unpopular thing to say, but it is true.

210 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:34:49pm

OT but good. Larry Kudlow steers a sane course on the Economy:

A V-Shaped Boom Is Coming: Conservative shouldn't fight the tale of the tape.

Let's hope he is listened to.

211 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:35:20pm
212 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:35:33pm

re: #156 sattv4u2

Difference being, what will the reaction be even from the furthest fringe(s) of Catholics

one would hope they'd be more pissed off at the leadership which is covering for child molestation than a cartoon. But that's just me!

213 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:35:44pm

re: #151 MandyManners

For once, I read your post.

You're wrong. That was not what I was "groping for".

But, interesting idea about "groping".

Re-engaging the GAZE gear.

Well there is a well-defined legal doctrine, going back millennia, which states that silence implies consent, and that is what we're talking about here, among other things, in discussing the subject of Vatican complicity in crimes of child abuse. By sweeping things under the carpet and silencing the victims, they made themselves complicit in the crimes.

A Google search for "silence enforces compliance" turns up exactly zero results.

You've had an original thought, Mandy! I'm not sure what it means or what you were trying to say, but congratulations, anyway.

214 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:35:55pm

re: #199 WindUpBird
There is satire, and this is not it.
Pretty good example of filth and sacrilege, though.
Just as is the desecration of children by a few pedophiles within a profession, and the sheltering of them by a hierarchy.

215 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:36:26pm

re: #207 albusteve

I have a feeling someone owns the Pope with regard to the sex ring scam...maybe I'm wrong

Ratzinger had a reputation for being a real attack dog for the Church if I'm not mistaken. I don't think anyone owns him, so much as he realized he could go far with this kind of attitude.

216 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:36:36pm

re: #214 tradewind

There is satire, and this is not it.
Pretty good example of filth and sacrilege, though.
Just as is the desecration of children by a few pedophiles within a profession, and the sheltering of them by a hierarchy.

No child was ever raped by a picture.

217 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:36:52pm

re: #214 tradewind

There is satire, and this is not it.
Pretty good example of filth and sacrilege, though.
Just as is the desecration of children by a few pedophiles within a profession, and the sheltering of them by a hierarchy.

Hahah you totally do not get to determine what is and isn't satire, but you just go ahead and act ALL SO CONCERNED WEEP WEEP ;_;

218 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:37:04pm

re: #203 captdiggs

There might be many aspects, but there aren't all aspects, and I have seen Obama criticized for literally everything he has done with Israel, even when those things have been exactly the same as previous administrations.

I have also seen him criticized for many things in regard to Israel that were untrue.

Criticism diluted loses much of its force.

219 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:38:01pm

re: #213 Cato the Elder
Well there is a well-defined legal doctrine, going back millennia, which states that silence implies consent
.... in very selective instances, and by no means is it a precedent in a court of law.
Believe me, if a young child is molested and does not report the molestation, his or her silence is not interpreted as consent.

220 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:38:19pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

Pretty offensive but it's supposed to be offensive. That's the whole point.

If we had no offensive satire and no offensive art, we would have no satire, and no art.

221 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:38:28pm

re: #214 tradewind

Don't fucking compare that picture to pedophilia, you ass.

222 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:39:35pm

re: #220 WindUpBird

If we had no offensive satire and no offensive art, we would have no satire, and no art.

Que? Don't get me wrong, i like offensive stuff, but not all art is or need be offensive.

I like Monet...

223 Sheepdogess  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:39:46pm

re: #39 wozzablog

Can't we all just... get along?

Hell no, how boring are you?

224 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:39:53pm

re: #219 tradewind

That silence will be taken by the pervert as consent.

225 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:40:00pm

re: #221 Obdicut
As if.
GAZE.

226 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:40:59pm

re: #223 Sheepdogess

Hell no, how boring are you?

Mars Attacks!

227 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:41:07pm

re: #219 tradewind

Well there is a well-defined legal doctrine, going back millennia, which states that silence implies consent
... in very selective instances, and by no means is it a precedent in a court of law.
Believe me, if a young child is molested and does not report the molestation, his or her silence is not interpreted as consent.

Way to misunderstand.

The consent implied in the Vatican's actions is not that of the abused children, but of the Vatican in condoning and not punishing the criminal priests.

228 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:41:08pm

re: #224 pingjockey
And you want to say that's legal? Because that is what I was discussing.... the legality of silence implying consent.
Way off topic there.

229 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:41:13pm

re: #225 tradewind

You said:

There is satire, and this is not it.
Pretty good example of filth and sacrilege, though.
Just as is the desecration of children by a few pedophiles within a profession, and the sheltering of them by a hierarchy.

This picture is not just as good an example of filth and sacrilege as actual pedophilia.

What is wrong with you?

230 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:42:03pm

re: #219 tradewind

Well there is a well-defined legal doctrine, going back millennia, which states that silence implies consent
... in very selective instances, and by no means is it a precedent in a court of law.
Believe me, if a young child is molested and does not report the molestation, his or her silence is not interpreted as consent.

Because children below an arbitrarily defined age cannot give consent.

231 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:42:34pm

re: #220 WindUpBird

If we had no offensive satire and no offensive art, we would have no satire, and no art.

would that include racist art?

232 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:42:34pm

re: #222 Aceofwhat?

Que? Don't get me wrong, i like offensive stuff, but not all art is or need be offensive.

I like Monet...

Well, here's the thing. many times, the stuff we take for granted now offended sensibilities back in the day. Manet for example, he SCANDALIZED people.

Clearly, there's room for art that does not offend. :D But what I'm saying is, if we start making judgments that art has to be X approved by the viewing public before it's considered art, then we've lost art. Most of the music I like was considered offensive, some of it still is. Some of my favorite records, their creators were once hauled before congress, tossed in jail, and sued. And same with satire. Satire offends, that's sort of the point.

233 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:42:40pm

re: #225 tradewind

As if.
GAZE.

No gazing here.

let me restate your post

bla bla bla pictures
just as
bla bla bla child molestation

the "just as" part is...disturbing...and quite a bit more than that silly cartoon.

they are not "just as" each other. not by a million miles.

234 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:43:47pm

re: #227 Cato the Elder
The Vatican is just blind and wrong when it comes to how they have handled the perpetrators... treating them as redeemable sinners rather than criminals.
Hopefully they will be forced into seeing the error of their ways, and understand that sorting out the forgiveness is God's.... theirs is to mete out the earthly justice.

235 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:44:03pm

re: #216 Charles

No child was ever raped by a picture.

Perhaps not, but plenty have had their minds ravished.

What has been seen cannot be unseen.

236 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:44:07pm

re: #198 Thanos

From who? The pope? The Liars for Jaysus! The Frauds and the Scamsters in the Mega temples that milk the poor?

Those are the ones doing the harm

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

237 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:44:22pm

re: #232 WindUpBird

Well, here's the thing. many times, the stuff we take for granted now offended sensibilities back in the day. Manet for example, he SCANDALIZED people.

Clearly, there's room for art that does not offend. :D But what I'm saying is, if we start making judgments that art has to be X approved by the viewing public before it's considered art, then we've lost art. Most of the music I like was considered offensive, some of it still is. Some of my favorite records, their creators were once hauled before congress, tossed in jail, and sued. And same with satire. Satire offends, that's sort of the point.

Note - i'm being picky for the fun of it...so if it stops being fun, let me know;)

I'm fine with satire = offensive. But art doesn't need to be. It CAN be offensive. It can be groundbreaking...but it can just be beautiful, too.

238 Sheepdogess  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:44:23pm

re: #222 Aceofwhat?

Hey, I agree.
Beethoven's 7th.

239 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:44:30pm

re: #228 tradewind
No, I said pervert, not anything legal. If the kid is connvinced not to talk, the damn pervert gets moved somewhere else and can continue their evil ways. I phrased it poorly.

240 Sheepdogess  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:45:02pm

re: #226 Aceofwhat?

I never saw that movie.

241 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:45:20pm

re: #231 albusteve

would that include racist art?

Yup.

Clearly, there's art that is offensive, shocking, illegal, but it's art. Banksy is vandalizing. he's breaking the law. he's one of the most vital artists on earth at the moment. I'm reminded of Andres Serrano, when he did a series of portraits of Klansmen.

242 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:45:27pm

re: #202 b_sharp

There is absolutely no difference between the Mohammed cartoons and this Jesus/Pope cartoon.

Both were created to make a pointed and blatant statement about a religion and the consequences of that religion's practices.

The objections I see to the Pope cartoon are of the same type and just as visceral as those we saw when the Mohammed cartoons were released. Those trying to say this current cartoon is worse than the previous cartoons are simply wrong, the implicit 'dirty' 'homo' sex in the Pope cartoon is viewed by the faithful just as Muslim's viewed the Mohammed cartoons.

These cartoons are not objectionable because of what is depicted in an objective sense but in how the members of the religions view the depiction. Catholics were quite upset when PZ Myers threw a consecrated wafer into the garbage (he also threw a page from the Koran and Origin of Species in the same garbage) even though it was just a frakkin' cracker.

They were upset because of the significance they give this symbol of their belief, which they consider part of their being. This is exactly how Muslims reacted to the cartoons of Mohammed.

Claiming that the cartoon with the Pope and Jesus is essentially different and/or worse than the Mohammed cartoons is hypocritical and in some cases disingenuous. Either both have to be accepted or both have to be rejected to remain consistent.

Nope.

Unlike the Mohammed cartoons, no one has objected to the publication of the offensive cartoons. In fact, that has never been an issue. The objections now are to the content and implied message. There have been no calls to violence or death threats.

That alone makes a huge difference. There is no moral equivalence here.

243 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:45:32pm

re: #236 MandyManners

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

9_9

244 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:45:46pm

re: #239 pingjockey
And that is the fault of the Church. See # 234.

245 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:45:47pm

re: #234 tradewind

The Vatican is just blind and wrong when it comes to how they have handled the perpetrators... treating them as redeemable sinners rather than criminals.
Hopefully they will be forced into seeing the error of their ways, and understand that sorting out the forgiveness is God's... theirs is to mete out the earthly justice.


Well said.

246 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:46:15pm

re: #240 Sheepdogess

I never saw that movie.

Highly recommend.

247 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:46:40pm

so we have a cartoon of a priest blowing Jesus, and another of BO with as a bone in his nose, wictch doctor....which is more offensive?

248 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:47:01pm

re: #244 tradewind
OK

249 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:47:52pm

re: #236 MandyManners

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I think the more you do this and the more comfortable you become on stage, you start speaking more and becoming more of a character in yourself.
Carrot Top

the <strong> tag. Can make anything look deep and insightful.

250 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:47:58pm

re: #200 Aceofwhat?

You are the Catholic Church, my friend. My affection for Catholics has nothing to do with Rome. It's related to the warm, loving individuals I've met.

Conversely, the Church has become everything it despises in the eyes of far too many of those who needed the Church the most. You can't fix all of that, but you can keep loving and serving those around you, and in doing so, can do your part to set a little something right in this sad world.

Be encouraged. You know where to find your strength when you feel that you have none.

{aceofwhat?}
Thank you

251 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:48:00pm

re: #236 MandyManners

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

What kind of an argument is that?

252 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:48:04pm

re: #237 Aceofwhat?

Note - i'm being picky for the fun of it...so if it stops being fun, let me know;)

I'm fine with satire = offensive. But art doesn't need to be. It CAN be offensive. It can be groundbreaking...but it can just be beautiful, too.

I agree with both things. I think you'll find that the more you consider some things 'profane' or unfit for depiction or representation, the less and less transgression you'll get in art, and the more and more art will tend to freeze.

If you look at it in the inverse way-- imagine how awesome the paintings from the Renaissance would be if the constraints on what to paint weren't so limited. Donatello's version of Christ-- actually making him look like he was suffering-- was an amazing step forward in art, but what would it would have looked like if Donatello hadn't had to break that taboo, if it already had been broken?

253 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:48:24pm

re: #242 researchok

Spot on.
As reprehensible and gross as that cartoon is, there is no place for banning it. If a person is able to live with drawing something like that, then no man should be able to tell him that he can't.

254 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:48:55pm

re: #241 WindUpBird

Yup.

Clearly, there's art that is offensive, shocking, illegal, but it's art. Banksy is vandalizing. he's breaking the law. he's one of the most vital artists on earth at the moment. I'm reminded of Andres Serrano, when he did a series of portraits of Klansmen.

then you would condone BO with a bone in his nose as legitimate art, worth defending on that merit alone?

255 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:49:10pm

re: #236 MandyManners

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Why are people downdinging this?

256 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:49:23pm

But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:49:45pm

I nominate 'Goebbels-Hitler-Braun thing' for rotating title.

258 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:49:49pm

re: #247 albusteve

so we have a cartoon of a priest blowing Jesus, and another of BO with as a bone in his nose, wictch doctor...which is more offensive?

my vote - the Obama cartoon. wholly undeserved. Jesus can take care of Himself.

259 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:49:59pm

re: #249 McSpiff

Oh, not anything.

260 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:50:12pm

re: #255 Dark_Falcon

Why are people downdinging this?

Because it is religious in nature. For some people, religion is toxic.

261 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:50:13pm

re: #242 researchok

Nope.

Unlike the Mohammed cartoons, no one has objected to the publication of the offensive cartoons. In fact, that has never been an issue. The objections now are to the content and implied message. There have been no calls to violence or death threats.

That alone makes a huge difference. There is no moral equivalence here.

Quite Concur.

262 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:50:20pm

re: #254 albusteve

then you would condone BO with a bone in his nose as legitimate art, worth defending on that merit alone?

I have no problem speaking out against the artist, and what that picture conveys. But I would never say that someone shouldn't be allowed to produce it or show it. We need to fight ideas, not trinkets.

263 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:50:28pm

re: #237 Aceofwhat?

Note - i'm being picky for the fun of it...so if it stops being fun, let me know;)

I'm fine with satire = offensive. But art doesn't need to be. It CAN be offensive. It can be groundbreaking...but it can just be beautiful, too.

Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of beautiful, inoffensive stuff. I have Michael Parkes and Alma-Tadema prints on my walls. :)

I think when it comes to the offensive, my tastes in offensive art more run to music. I tend towards challenging and abrasive music. :D

264 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:50:50pm

re: #256 MandyManners

Matthew 6:6

But thou, when thou prayest , enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly .

265 Sheepdogess  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:50:53pm

re: #246 Aceofwhat?

As a woman, I probably wouldn't get it. But I will give it a shot and report back next weekend....Aceofwhat, got it.

You listen to Beethoven's 7th.
Deal?

266 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:50:58pm

re: #236 MandyManners

I don't, can't, and won't believe.


My life is light, like a feather upon the back of my hand awaiting the deathwind. -- Walter Tevis

Walter was an alky, and what he says is as true as what's in the bible.

267 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:50:58pm

re: #249 McSpiff

I think the more you do this and the more comfortable you become on stage, you start speaking more and becoming more of a character in yourself.
Carrot Top

the <strong> tag. Can make anything look deep and insightful.

Yeah. I'll keep that in mind when evaluating the words of Christ v. the words of a mentally ill warrior who founded Islam.

268 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:51:03pm

re: #255 Dark_Falcon

Why are people downdinging this?

Because it's the typical hiding behind a scripture. I can't imagine that it was posted for any other reason than to ignite or inflame.

269 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:51:05pm

re: #258 Aceofwhat?

my vote - the Obama cartoon. wholly undeserved. Jesus can take care of Himself.

Jesus is dead...that's hardly the point

270 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:51:06pm

re: #259 tradewind

Oh, not anything.

Don't even get me started on how italics make things... sexy

271 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:51:10pm

re: #255 Dark_Falcon
There's this phrase about pearls and swine.......

272 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:51:42pm

re: #253 tradewind

Spot on.
As reprehensible and gross as that cartoon is, there is no place for banning it. If a person is able to live with drawing something like that, then no man should be able to tell him that he can't.

Indeed. That's why I said only that the drawer should be shunned. Banning the cartoon would indeed be wrong.

273 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:51:46pm

re: #264 Obdicut

Matthew 6:6

Bingo!

274 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:51:46pm

re: #263 WindUpBird

Been in a few mosh pits, have you?

275 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:51:54pm

re: #249 McSpiff

I think the more you do this and the more comfortable you become on stage, you start speaking more and becoming more of a character in yourself.
Carrot Top

the <strong> tag. Can make anything look deep and insightful.

My Bologna has a first name,
It's O-S-C-A-R.
My bologna has a second name,
It's M-A-Y-E-R.
Oh I love to eat it everyday,
And if you ask me why say,
Cause' Oscar Mayer has a way with B-O-L-O-G-N-A

276 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:52:12pm

re: #252 Obdicut

I agree with both things. I think you'll find that the more you consider some things 'profane' or unfit for depiction or representation, the less and less transgression you'll get in art, and the more and more art will tend to freeze.

If you look at it in the inverse way-- imagine how awesome the paintings from the Renaissance would be if the constraints on what to paint weren't so limited. Donatello's version of Christ-- actually making him look like he was suffering-- was an amazing step forward in art, but what would it would have looked like if Donatello hadn't had to break that taboo, if it already had been broken?

good stuff. My reservations kick in when a person does or creates something offensive and thinks that, as a result, it must be art. It's not what your or WUB are implying, of course, but it's my upper bound.

277 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:52:56pm

re: #266 Thanos

I don't, can't, and won't believe.


My life is light, like a feather upon the back of my hand awaiting the deathwind. -- Walter Tevis

Walter was an alky, and what he says is as true as what's in the bible.

That is the path you choose.

I cannot and will not speak against it.

278 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:53:00pm

re: #255 Dark_Falcon

Why are people downdinging this?

Because screaming bible passages at the top of your lungs when people are trying to have a serious discussion about child abuse in the Catholic Church does nothing to further the discussion. Great, Mandy love Jesus. I'm guessing 90% of the people here do. It isn't relevant, adds to the noise and generally shouldn't be encouraged IMHO.

279 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:53:12pm

re: #268 Stanley Sea

I can't imagine that it was posted for any other reason than to ignite or inflame.


No, that was the post re the cartoon.

280 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:53:15pm

re: #260 researchok

Because it is religious in nature. For some people, religion is toxic.

No! It's the USING of religion that pisses me off.

281 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:53:33pm

re: #268 Stanley Sea

Because it's the typical hiding behind a scripture. I can't imagine that it was posted for any other reason than to ignite or inflame.

I have to disagree with you on this.

If a message originates from a religious source, is it less meaningful?

Were Mother Teresa's good works less relevant because she did her good works under the aegis of a religious institution?

282 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:53:42pm

Continually quoting Bible verse comes close to proselytization and ya all know Charles has a policy on that...

283 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:53:57pm

re: #267 MandyManners

Yeah. I'll keep that in mind when evaluating the words of Christ v. the words of a mentally ill warrior who founded Islam.

What are you blabbering on about now?

284 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:54:14pm

re: #274 prairiefire

Been in a few mosh pits, have you?

Many many *_* Rushed the floor at a Metallica show, got kicked out for rushing the floor at a Ministry show, watched my partner almost get into a fistfight with a guy at the Skinny Puppy show at Convergence... the stories go on and on! I actually had to get checked out in a clinic after crowdsurfing at a Testament concert. I'm more careful these days, I like being close up in the crowd, but not necessarily hurling my twiggy frame against dudes twice my size. but I was right there up front at the last Mastodon show with all the moshing sweaty maniacs :D

285 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:54:14pm

re: #26 zeir

It bodes evil for the cohesiveness of the Jewish community when all these urban legends start flying around. While the community is busy chasing these delusions, they will get end run.

Also, "Esther Heymann" was a side player in 9/11 with flight 93. Some relation?

One of the rabbis recommended to myself and the husband when we were planning our wedding was 'Rabbi Heymann'.

My mother said 'Oh, you're making that up.'

We didn't not hire him to do the wedding because of his name. We didn't hire him to do the wedding because his website said 'Friends don't let friends eat meat," and I could tell right away he and my fiance wouldn't get along.

286 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:54:16pm

re: #265 Sheepdogess

As a woman, I probably wouldn't get it. But I will give it a shot and report back next weekend...Aceofwhat, got it.

You listen to Beethoven's 7th.
Deal?

Already done. I like the 7th!

Do you like Jack Nicholson? He has two roles in this movie, both very tongue-in-cheek. I admit that a lot of my affection for the movie is related to the fact that i'm a big Jack fan...

287 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:54:38pm
288 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:55:13pm

re: #270 McSpiff

Don't even get me started on how italics make things... sexy

I'm dead sexy...

289 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:56:19pm

re: #281 researchok

I have to disagree with you on this.

If a message originates from a religious source, is it less meaningful?

Were Mother Teresa's good works less relevant because she did her good works under the aegis of a religious institution?

Oh my god - IN A BLOG?

This is not a place fore redemption.

290 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:56:41pm

re: #276 Aceofwhat?

good stuff. My reservations kick in when a person does or creates something offensive and thinks that, as a result, it must be art. It's not what your or WUB are implying, of course, but it's my upper bound.

haha well, it's still art? But maybe it's not GOOD art :D I'm more about people who have something to say, know that it IS offensive, and say it because they have to.

291 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:58:23pm

re: #287 prairiefire

I saw the name and had a flashback to "Then Came Bronson"...

292 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:58:38pm

re: #162 William of Orange

Wanna know what really happened in the ACORN offices when O'Keefe and Giles visited?

Rachel Maddow has the unedited videos.

Which makes me wonder why no one will touch Fox news for participating in this scandal. This is downright criminal. I do have to reserve a bit cause I don't know to what extend they were aware of the unedited footage. O'Keefe is really the scum of the earth. He doesn't need a pimp suit to make his point.

Thanks for posting this.

Very disappointing.

When will people realize that the more they lie and cheat to prove a point, the more they undermine their own cause?!

Truth has a nasty way of eventually coming out, and there are enough real issues to talk about without going on witch hunts.

293 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:58:43pm

re: #289 Stanley Sea

Oh my god - IN A BLOG?

This is not a place fore redemption.

Of course not.

I just have never understood the notion that just because an idea originates in religion/atheism/agnosticism means the message is somehow lessened.

294 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:58:57pm

re: #287 prairiefire

I love that gargoyle piece. This is one of my favorites, though I don't think it's available as a (non-fine art litho) print: Image: phpthumb-php.jpeg (NWS for sphinxbewbs)

295 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:59:08pm

re: #276 Aceofwhat?

I agree. I also consider some things that are thought experiments in art, like the silence-as-music concept, to, in the end, be really interesting and good, but 'not art'. I think the question "what is art" is answerable, but the answer is pretty damn long.

But I agree with you that intent matters-- if someone composes something that is only meant to offend, to me that can't be art. But very few things that are truly penetrating are only offensive; they penetrate because they are artistic.

296 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 7:59:55pm

re: #62 Conservative Moonbat

They are awaiting the second cumming.

(sorry, couldn't help it)

Since we've *gone there*, here's a little something something I found on YouTube some years back:

Priest-Off® Clergy Repellent

This is a harsh parody folks. Just warning you now. That said, it cuts to the chase.

297 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:00:11pm

re: #293 researchok

Of course not.

I just have never understood the notion that just because an idea originates in religion/atheism/agnosticism means the message is somehow lessened.

It's preaching, or proselytizing in a blog. Sorry, doesn't help the dialog.

298 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:00:13pm

re: #278 McSpiff

Because screaming bible passages at the top of your lungs when people are trying to have a serious discussion about child abuse in the Catholic Church does nothing to further the discussion. Great, Mandy love Jesus. I'm guessing 90% of the people here do. It isn't relevant, adds to the noise and generally shouldn't be encouraged IMHO.

Mandy screamed at no one. She simply expressed her faith. It was to some extent as a shield but she wasn't trying to be hostile IMO.

299 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:00:40pm

What with the preaching and the angry rumbling around here I kind of feel like I'm in a saloon in the Wild West, where WUB the bartender and Ace the regular are arguing art while bottles fly over their head.

300 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:00:41pm

re: #285 SanFranciscoZionist

One of the rabbis recommended to myself and the husband when we were planning our wedding was 'Rabbi Heymann'.

My mother said 'Oh, you're making that up.'

We didn't not hire him to do the wedding because of his name. We didn't hire him to do the wedding because his website said 'Friends don't let friends eat meat," and I could tell right away he and my fiance wouldn't get along.

Street in the town where I grew up called "Heyman Lane".
I'm not sure I ever heard anyone actually say it out loud.

301 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:00:45pm

re: #297 Stanley Sea

It's preaching, or proselytizing in a blog. Sorry, doesn't help the dialog.

Quoting scripture in whole, without any individual comment.

302 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:00:46pm

re: #289 Stanley Sea

Oh my god - IN A BLOG?

This is not a place fore redemption.

there is no redemption...except maybe at Target for that awful shirt you bought

303 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:00:57pm

re: #12 Stanley Sea

You know, I come to learn. There's a lot of stuff I don't know about Israel and it's politics with the US. I want to learn. When this meme of how horrible horrible horrible Obama is comes up, it appears to me to be based on supposition and the magic eight ball. Since this article and reference to it was posted several times, it's not making it any easier.

If you ever have questions... ASK.

One of my earliest "uses" for LGF when I first signed up was to use the Lizard Army as a sounding board for the validity of various sources as I was learning about different issues.

There are people here with plenty of experience from diverse backgrounds and know the reputations of various journalists/pundits/newspapers/other sources.

304 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:01:01pm

re: #147 researchok

There is a difference.

The objection to the Danish cartoons was predicated on the idea that nothing the prophet ever did did or called for was objectionable.

In this case, the church deplores what happened. Their failure was in the dealing or not dealing with the offenders.

The Church deplores what happened, but protected the offenders, and is, assuredly IMHO, still protecting the offenders.

Sure they deplore sexual abuse, and lots of Muslim leaders 'deplore' violence out of one side of their mouth.

305 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:01:10pm

Capercaille

306 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:02:08pm

re: #304 SanFranciscoZionist

They have shown no signs they deplore the effect it had on the victims.

The prayer at Easter really upset my parents a lot.

307 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:02:48pm

re: #304 SanFranciscoZionist

The Church deplores what happened, but protected the offenders, and is, assuredly IMHO, still protecting the offenders.

Sure they deplore sexual abuse, and lots of Muslim leaders 'deplore' violence out of one side of their mouth.

Action speaks louder than words.

And words are cheap.

308 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:02:52pm
Mandy screamed at no one. She simply expressed her faith. It was to some extent as a shield but she wasn't trying to be hostile IMO.

I generally try to respond to the discussion at hand. I find when Many goes on a posting spree where she isn't actually engaged in the conversation at hand (or one them, we usually have several going) its disruptive behavior. Totally fine if you disagree, but you asked why people downdinged her and thats my reasoning.

309 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:03:00pm

re: #157 Racer X

Radical muslims must be laughing their asses off right now.

I have a standing principle of not caring what radical Muslims are thinking about at any given moment, unless it creates a security threat.

310 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:03:02pm

re: #303 Joo-LiZ

If you ever have questions... ASK.

One of my earliest "uses" for LGF when I first signed up was to use the Lizard Army as a sounding board for the validity of various sources as I was learning about different issues.

There are people here with plenty of experience from diverse backgrounds and know the reputations of various journalists/pundits/newspapers/other sources.

Thank you much.

311 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:03:04pm

re: #290 WindUpBird

haha well, it's still art? But maybe it's not GOOD art :D I'm more about people who have something to say, know that it IS offensive, and say it because they have to.

welll...i dunno. at the risk of getting deeper on you (don't want to cast off my shallow republican exterior;), i tend to vacillate between relativism and objectivism.

on one hand, if it doesn't stimulate you, i don't have an issue with your deciding that an item isn't really "art" to you.

on the other hand, i think that "art" should be skillful, emotionally powerful, or both (if possible). the 'emotionally powerful' bit is where it gets relativistic to me.

i need another drink...

312 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:03:06pm

re: #147 researchok
The objection/aka outrage was also based on the fundy muslim belief that Mohammed can never be portrayed in print as an image. Can't draw his picture, or off with your head.

313 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:03:41pm

re: #299 Obdicut

What with the preaching and the angry rumbling around here I kind of feel like I'm in a saloon in the Wild West, where WUB the bartender and Ace the regular are arguing art while bottles fly over their head.

hahahahahahahahahahaha it's so true

I'm wiping down the bar with a long cigarette in one hand: "You know, the works of the Fauves ascended to the level of *breaking glass* in the salons the school fow isdom was..." *CRASH* *SLAM* *splinters, flying table* "Kind sir, that's 30 year old scotch, do be careful!"

314 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:03:49pm

re: #304 SanFranciscoZionist

The Church deplores what happened, but protected the offenders, and is, assuredly IMHO, still protecting the offenders.

Sure they deplore sexual abuse, and lots of Muslim leaders 'deplore' violence out of one side of their mouth.

bullshit...deplore what, when and where?...who deplores it? some slick spinmeister on FOX TV?

315 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:03:54pm

re: #306 Obdicut

They have shown no signs they deplore the effect it had on the victims.

The prayer at Easter really upset my parents a lot.


And many Catholics, as well.
Believe me.

316 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:04:03pm

re: #291 Thanos

I saw the name and had a flashback to "Then Came Bronson"...

Looked like a good show, one season 69-70. I think I was concentrating on Room 222.

317 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:04:44pm

re: #307 eclectic infidel

Action speaks louder than words.

And words are cheap.


You're right. The church has no redeeming value whatsoever, right?

318 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:05:09pm

re: #313 WindUpBird

hahahahahahahahahahaha it's so true

I'm wiping down the bar with a long cigarette in one hand: "You know, the works of the Fauves ascended to the level of *breaking glass* in the salons the school fow isdom was..." *CRASH* *SLAM* *splinters, flying table* "Kind sir, that's 30 year old scotch, do be careful!"

LOL.
I can picture this scene in my head

319 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:05:15pm

re: #290 WindUpBird

haha well, it's still art? But maybe it's not GOOD art :D I'm more about people who have something to say, know that it IS offensive, and say it because they have to.

Heh. My dad and I were just discussing (he's an academic, a medievalist) whether the letters of authors should be treated differently than their texts-- especially when they're well-known enough to know that their letters will be read after their deaths. To what extent are we to think the communication is really for the intended recipient, and how much to the audience at large? Does it matter what actual effect the letters had, or intended to have, on their recipients? Are the letters art first, or actual communications first? Is there an important difference, or is, as Prince would say, the artist is the person and whatever they do is art?

320 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:05:23pm

re: #311 Aceofwhat?

welll...i dunno. at the risk of getting deeper on you (don't want to cast off my shallow republican exterior;), i tend to vacillate between relativism and objectivism.

on one hand, if it doesn't stimulate you, i don't have an issue with your deciding that an item isn't really "art" to you.

on the other hand, i think that "art" should be skillful, emotionally powerful, or both (if possible). the 'emotionally powerful' bit is where it gets relativistic to me.

i need another drink...

Pfft, I like you :D

But I don't think art need be skillful, we'd be weeding out a lot of outsider work that's quite compelling!

And yeah, emotionally powerful is so relative.

321 palomino  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:05:27pm

re: #156 sattv4u2

Difference being, what will the reaction be even from the furthest fringe(s) of Catholics

Well, I don't think they'll be blowing up any KFC's.

322 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:05:40pm

re: #299 Obdicut

What with the preaching and the angry rumbling around here I kind of feel like I'm in a saloon in the Wild West, where WUB the bartender and Ace the regular are arguing art while bottles fly over their head.

love it.

WUB - another whiskey. pour one for yourself, while you're at it, and while we're waiting for Obdicut to duck under the flying barstools...

323 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:05:41pm

re: #310 Stanley Sea

Thank you much.

Not sure if that was sarcasm... (I dunno what I said that deserves a "much")

... but your welcome :)

324 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:05:55pm

re: #323 Joo-LiZ

Not sure if that was sarcasm... (I dunno what I said that deserves a "much")

... but your you're welcome :)


PIMF

325 Sheepdogess  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:06:07pm

As it goes with the Catholic church , so will it go with all of us.

Michael Jackson,-molester of young males ( whose depraved, ignorant, celebrity worshiping mothers encouraged this behavior) , managed to escape any serious scrutiny from the MSM.

326 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:06:21pm

re: #290 WindUpBird

haha well, it's still art? But maybe it's not GOOD art :D I'm more about people who have something to say, know that it IS offensive, and say it because they have to.

I'm more about people who have something to say, know that it IS offensive, and STFU because they are part of a human community.

327 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:06:26pm

re: #242 researchok

Nope.

Unlike the Mohammed cartoons, no one has objected to the publication of the offensive cartoons. In fact, that has never been an issue. The objections now are to the content and implied message. There have been no calls to violence or death threats.

That alone makes a huge difference. There is no moral equivalence here.

You've created an artificial difference.

First off, the discussion was about the cartoons themselves, how the content, which by the way cannot be separated from being published, is viewed by the religious followers, how it affects their religious beliefs, how it injures their faith.

Your argument is suggesting that the cartoon of Jesus and the Pope is worse than the Mohammed cartoons because Catholics have not chosen to utter death threats.

This akin to saying that if I punch a Catholic in the face and she just smiles, but I punch a Muslim in the face and she kicks me in the junk, the punch I gave the Catholic was worse.

Secondly, if the cartoon is not published the content is irrelevant, we never see it. If the cartoon is published but the content is not offensive, whether it is published or not makes no difference. The content and the fact of being published cannot be separated, they are effectively one and the same.

328 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:06:32pm

re: #317 researchok

You're right. The church has no redeeming value whatsoever, right?

redeeming value?...no...there is no redemption

329 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:06:42pm

re: #317 researchok

You're right. The church has no redeeming value whatsoever, right?


It has plenty of redeeming value, it's just that the leadership are engaging in criminal behavior. Government doesn't cease to have value when it's found that someone's on the take or committing illegal acts in power...

330 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:07:18pm

re: #322 Aceofwhat?

love it.

WUB - another whiskey. pour one for yourself, while you're at it, and while we're waiting for Obdicut to duck under the flying barstools...

Another Makers for the good sir!

Now all i can think of is the underwater barfight in Top Secret :D

331 Bagua  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:07:22pm

To the person using the email: 'estherheyman"

You should be ashamed of yourself. Charles has established himself as a true friend of Israel through his actions, many times over. This is beyond debate and to his permanent credit regardless of what he chooses to post now, or in the future.

Have the decency to reckognise your error and send him an apology.

332 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:07:24pm

re: #319 Obdicut

Lovely conversation. Just cool.

333 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:07:26pm

re: #325 Sheepdogess

As it goes with the Catholic church , so will it go with all of us.

Michael Jackson,-molester of young males ( whose depraved, ignorant, celebrity worshiping mothers encouraged this behavior) , managed to escape any serious scrutiny from the MSM.

Hell, I'd be happy to see the Catholic Church face the level of scrutiny that Jackson faced. I think seeing police raids on the Vatican would be great.

334 palomino  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:07:36pm

re: #162 William of Orange

Wanna know what really happened in the ACORN offices when O'Keefe and Giles visited?

Rachel Maddow has the unedited videos.

Which makes me wonder why no one will touch Fox news for participating in this scandal. This is downright criminal. I do have to reserve a bit cause I don't know to what extend they were aware of the unedited footage. O'Keefe is really the scum of the earth. He doesn't need a pimp suit to make his point.

Wrong, this is "bigger than Watergate." How do I know this? Because Andrew Breitbart (Woodward and Bernstein rolled into one) says so.

////////

335 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:08:10pm

re: #323 Joo-LiZ

Not sure if that was sarcasm... (I dunno what I said that deserves a "much")

... but your welcome :)

No no !!! really appreciate the hand given.

336 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:08:23pm

re: #326 Decatur Deb

Heh. I'm glad they say it when they can be artistic about it, like Joyce. When it's Jackass, I wish they'd shut up, but you can't shut up the Jackasses without shutting up the Joyces too.

337 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:10:12pm

re: #326 Decatur Deb

I'm more about people who have something to say, know that it IS offensive, and STFU because they are part of a human community.

You've pretty much eliminated my entire record collection, you know that? ;-)

This is a good example of a piece of art that was considered quite offensive for the time: Image: manet20vh0.jpg (NWS for Manet bewbs)

Being part of a human community means you risk being offended by artists. To claim otherwise is to envision a shockingly bland existence. Personally, I'm offended by reality shows and children's beauty pageants. I find them horrible and unwatchable. Everyone is offended by something differemt!

338 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:10:12pm

re: #320 WindUpBird

Pfft, I like you :D

But I don't think art need be skillful, we'd be weeding out a lot of outsider work that's quite compelling!

And yeah, emotionally powerful is so relative.

Ah, but emotions are much easier to evoke with skill...it's not necessary...but it's very helpful.

I like Rachmaninoff in large part because i find the complexity to be moving...but I like the soundtrack to Hunt For Red October too...good, solid russian choir there...

339 DaddyLawBucks  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:10:43pm

Note that here, offensive art is only "offensive" .....in Germany, it's apparently a criminal offense as well. And you did read the article, he is just cleaning the crucifix.

340 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:11:26pm

re: #337 WindUpBird

Oh god, not Anne Geddes!

341 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:11:29pm

re: #338 Aceofwhat?

Ah, but emotions are much easier to evoke with skill...it's not necessary...but it's very helpful.

I like Rachmaninoff in large part because i find the complexity to be moving...but I like the soundtrack to Hunt For Red October too...good, solid russian choir there...

cheers for HfRO music, that was the intro music for the news hour on the geek/pop culture radio show I listened to. :D

342 albusteve  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:11:39pm

re: #339 daddylawbucks

Note that here, offensive art is only "offensive" ...in Germany, it's apparently a criminal offense as well. And you did read the article, he is just cleaning the crucifix.

Art Crimes...nice

343 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:11:59pm

re: #340 Obdicut

Oh god, not Anne Geddes!

ahahahahaha NOOOOOO

344 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:12:10pm

re: #329 WindUpBird

re: #328 albusteve

See 209

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. That there imperfect priests and imperfect church leaders is not in question. That there needs to be change and amends is also true.

That said the church continues to do and has done an extraordinary amount of good. Inner city schools, hospitals, relief and rescue work, etc, ad infinitum is a reality that cannot be overlooked. The has done far more good globally than most organizations. The church cannot and should not be dismissed because of the behaviors of the bad apples.

While it is easy to excoriate the church as hypocritical, the same can be said for those who claim to better people because they are not believers.

People are people. The are saints and sinners, princes and thieves in every corner of every society. Every corner.

That may be an unpopular thing to say, but it is true.

That there are serious problems with the leadership is not in question.

That said, the Church is a lot more than Rome.

345 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:12:23pm

re: #339 daddylawbucks

Note that here, offensive art is only "offensive" ...in Germany, it's apparently a criminal offense as well. And you did read the article, he is just cleaning the crucifix.

...said the editor, "tongue-in-cheek".

346 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:12:38pm

re: #336 Obdicut

Heh. I'm glad they say it when they can be artistic about it, like Joyce. When it's Jackass, I wish they'd shut up, but you can't shut up the Jackasses without shutting up the Joyces too.

I gotta say, I loved Jackass. Most of all, I loved their Gumball Rally episode :D

347 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:13:12pm

re: #255 Dark_Falcon

Why are people downdinging this?

Because it is the way creationists argue. If a Biblical quote is made because it is important to the commenter, then nobody will object, I hope. But if it is made as a serious explanatory answer to a question or a response in a debate, without adding a logical and coherent argument, then it's just an evasion.

348 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:13:30pm

re: #317 researchok

You're right. The church has no redeeming value whatsoever, right?

My strongest criticisms of the RCC is with the clergy and leadership. Being a former Catholic myself, I know from experience that there are good, decent people in the rank and file. I am fully aware of Catholic charities and the good they bring to communities. I know that the Catholic Church is not entirely comprised of evil people, and it's those at the top who are to blame for its current situation.

349 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:14:04pm

re: #249 McSpiff

I think the more you do this and the more comfortable you become on stage, you start speaking more and becoming more of a character in yourself.
Carrot Top

the <strong> tag. Can make anything look deep and insightful.

Putting "SNIP" at the end of your quote to imply that there's plenty more you could say is also effective.

350 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:14:18pm

re: #339 daddylawbucks

Note that here, offensive art is only "offensive" ...in Germany, it's apparently a criminal offense as well. And you did read the article, he is just cleaning the crucifix.

It should not be a crime but, I'm approaching the situation as a defender of the First Amendment.

351 Bagua  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:14:41pm

re: #331 Bagua

I am taking the added step of emailing this individual directly. This is very upsetting.

352 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:14:44pm

re: #346 WindUpBird

I gotta say, I loved Jackass. Most of all, I loved their Gumball Rally episode :D

is it good or bad that this tidbit fits my mental image of you just fine;)

353 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:14:58pm

Here's an awesome offensive piece of music:


kinky friedman/they ain't makin' jews like jesus anymore

It may offend you if you're Christian, maybe. It also contains racial slurs, but it also contains, narratively, the person saying the racial slurs getting the shit kicked out of him.

354 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:14:58pm

re: #337 WindUpBird

The difference between Manet and the cartoonist is the difference between offense and insult. It was intended so.

355 Firstinla  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:15:09pm

The Catholic Church is rightfully getting pummelled for its sick tolerance of sexual abuse by priests. Then there are reports of sexual abuse in the Boy Scouts, rabbis, school teachers, and now, swimming coaches. Where and how and when does it stop?

356 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:15:09pm

re: #260 researchok

Because it is religious in nature. For some people, religion is toxic.

Nonsense.

Instead of jumping to conclusions, and if you don't understand, ask.

357 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:15:18pm

re: #337 WindUpBird

You've pretty much eliminated my entire record collection, you know that? ;-)

This is a good example of a piece of art that was considered quite offensive for the time: Image: manet20vh0.jpg (NWS for Manet bewbs)

Being part of a human community means you risk being offended by artists. To claim otherwise is to envision a shockingly bland existence. Personally, I'm offended by reality shows and children's beauty pageants. I find them horrible and unwatchable. Everyone is offended by something differemt!

There was a time not too long ago (about 2 years) where I (without even realizing it) was part of the "shut up the offensive stuff!" camp (about something that had offended me). I didn't even realize what I was asking for, until someone pointed out exactly what you just said... and then it just sort of clicked and I remembered that old Voltaire saying "I may completely disagree with what you say, but I would defend with my life your right to say it" (paraphrased).

Wise words, those.

That's my current view.

358 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:15:47pm

re: #349 Cato the Elder

I am but only a young Padawan...

359 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:15:56pm

re: #352 Aceofwhat?

is it good or bad that this tidbit fits my mental image of you just fine;)

It's good! I also grew up watching cannonball Run over and over and over...

360 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:16:08pm

Dance Away

361 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:16:14pm

re: #261 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur.

Dark, you're being led down a path. Read my response to the original comment.

362 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:16:21pm

re: #353 Obdicut

Here's an awesome offensive piece of music:


kinky friedman/they ain't makin' jews like jesus anymore

It may offend you if you're Christian, maybe. It also contains racial slurs, but it also contains, narratively, the person saying the racial slurs getting the shit kicked out of him.

Wow.

Good distraction.

363 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:16:42pm

What is the translation on the cover? Or did you guys go over that.

364 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:16:46pm

re: #355 Firstinla

The Catholic Church is rightfully getting pummelled for its sick tolerance of sexual abuse by priests. Then there are reports of sexual abuse in the Boy Scouts, rabbis, school teachers, and now, swimming coaches. Where and how and when does it stop?

I just read about the swimming coaches earlier. Disgusting.

365 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:16:46pm

re: #355 Firstinla

Pedophelia isn't going to 'stop'. Abuse of children isn't going to 'stop'. But possibly, the Catholic church can stop covering up for known pedophiles and providing them access to children after the Church knows that they are pedophiles.

366 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:17:50pm

re: #327 b_sharp

You've created an artificial difference.

First off, the discussion was about the cartoons themselves, how the content, which by the way cannot be separated from being published, is viewed by the religious followers, how it affects their religious beliefs, how it injures their faith.

Your argument is suggesting that the cartoon of Jesus and the Pope is worse than the Mohammed cartoons because Catholics have not chosen to utter death threats.

This akin to saying that if I punch a Catholic in the face and she just smiles, but I punch a Muslim in the face and she kicks me in the junk, the punch I gave the Catholic was worse.

Secondly, if the cartoon is not published the content is irrelevant, we never see it. If the cartoon is published but the content is not offensive, whether it is published or not makes no difference. The content and the fact of being published cannot be separated, they are effectively one and the same.

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Unlike the Mohammed cartoons, no one objected to the publication of the cartoon, and no one called for violence or death.

Are you saying that because Christians objected to the content of the cartoon as Muslims objected to the content of the Mohammed cartoons (and them some), there are no differences?

367 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:17:50pm

re: #353 Obdicut

My favorite radio guy of all time, Phil Hendire, did satirical bits specifically making fun of A) the developmentally disabled and B) the security concerns after 9/11. Was it offensive? YES. Was it the funniest thing I had ever heard? Also yes. :D

368 DaddyLawBucks  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:18:04pm

re: #350 MandyManners

I agree. As a practical matter, we are so delicate that we need the government to protect us from what some censer might find offensive. It's just odd to me that a major European democracy would find the opposite. Of course, they probably show frontal nudity on Tv without a thought.

369 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:18:30pm

re: #209 researchok

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. That there imperfect priests and imperfect church leaders is not in question. That there needs to be change and amends is also true.

That said the church continues to do and has done an extraordinary amount of good. Inner city schools, hospitals, relief and rescue work, etc, ad infinitum is a reality that cannot be overlooked. The has done far more good globally than most organizations. The church cannot and should not be dismissed because of the behaviors of the bad apples.

While it is easy to excoriate the church as hypocritical, the same can be said for those who claim to better people because they are not believers.

People are people. The are saints and sinners, princes and thieves in every corner of every society. Every corner.

That may be an unpopular thing to say, but it is true.

The Church is the people of the Church, not the Vatican, not the Pope.
It is those people of the Church, those who believe in God and believe in doing what is right and for the greater good, who are working in the schools, the hospitals and other endeavors.

That these incidents ever happened is bad enough. That those who are supposed to be the leaders, those who should be setting the example of doing right, in our Church, would dismiss and cover up and offer protection to the perpetrators (and not just protection, but the opportunity to continue!) is incomprehensible.

370 Sheepdogess  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:18:46pm

re: #333 McSpiff

Hell, I'd be happy to see the Catholic Church face the level of scrutiny that Jackson faced. I think seeing police raids on the Vatican would be great.

Agreed.

I'd be happy to see the entire LA entertainment industry face the same scrutiny too.

Clean up time baby, and we can start in Hollyweird.

In my state,(very liberal) fondling ones genitals in front of a child is a sex crime that will put you on a list for decades.

371 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:19:04pm

re: #367 WindUpBird

Louis C.K. is one of my favorite comics for exactly that reason. The funniest guy who's jokes you've heard other people tell and ruin them in the telling-- if you've never checked him out, check him out.

372 Bagua  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:19:05pm

re: #355 Firstinla

The Catholic Church is rightfully getting pummelled for its sick tolerance of sexual abuse by priests. Then there are reports of sexual abuse in the Boy Scouts, rabbis, school teachers, and now, swimming coaches. Where and how and when does it stop?

It is a widespread phenomena which is far from unique to the Catholic Church. The issue of concern is the culture of cover-up and enabling which the Church has become infamous for.

373 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:19:23pm

re: #366 researchok

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Unlike the Mohammed cartoons, no one objected to the publication of the cartoon, and no one called for violence or death.

Are you saying that because Christians objected to the content of the cartoon as Muslims objected to the content of the Mohammed cartoons (and them some), there are no differences?

The closest thing I can think of to the reaction to Mohammed cartoons in the Catholic Church was the reaction to Scorcese's Last Temptation of Christ, in which a theater was firebombed there were furious protests, and I believe someone crashed their car into a theater.

374 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:19:30pm

re: #356 b_sharp

Nonsense.

Instead of jumping to conclusions, and if you don't understand, ask.

Why on earth would you presume I don't understand? Given this response, I could come to a very similar conclusion.

As yet, I don't have enough information.

375 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:19:37pm

re: #355 Firstinla

The Catholic Church is rightfully getting pummelled for its sick tolerance of sexual abuse by priests. Then there are reports of sexual abuse in the Boy Scouts, rabbis, school teachers, and now, swimming coaches. Where and how and when does it stop?

Where did it start? I think there'll always be sickos out there.

There was a gym teacher at my high school who was arrested after taking pictures of some of the girls.

The key (as I think some have said) is to make sure they aren't being institutionally protected by an organization like the Catholic Church.

376 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:19:50pm

re: #371 Obdicut

Louis C.K. is one of my favorite comics for exactly that reason. The funniest guy who's jokes you've heard other people tell and ruin them in the telling-- if you've never checked him out, check him out.

I'm gonna go do it :D

377 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:20:19pm

re: #363 marjoriemoon

What is the translation on the cover? Or did you guys go over that.

(The?) Church Today.

378 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:20:40pm

re: #367 WindUpBird

My favorite radio guy of all time, Phil Hendire, did satirical bits specifically making fun of A) the developmentally disabled and B) the security concerns after 9/11. Was it offensive? YES. Was it the funniest thing I had ever heard? Also yes. :D

Probably because he's skillful! The other hand = Lisa Lampanelli. Yawn. i can stand up on stage and alternate cursing with racial epithets too. i'm neither shocked nor amused...just booored...

379 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:21:11pm

re: #368 daddylawbucks

I agree. As a practical matter, we are so delicate that we need the government to protect us from what some censer might find offensive. It's just odd to me that a major European democracy would find the opposite. Of course, they probably show frontal nudity on Tv without a thought.

Nothing offends me like the FCC sanitizing radio. Our airwaves and people are being kicked off the air and their work cowed and censored.

380 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:21:26pm

re: #378 Aceofwhat?

Probably because he's skillful! The other hand = Lisa Lampanelli. Yawn. i can stand up on stage and alternate cursing with racial epithets too. i'm neither shocked nor amused...just booored...

He is quite skillful, yes *_*

381 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:21:45pm

re: #370 Sheepdogess

Agreed.

I'd be happy to see the entire LA entertainment industry face the same scrutiny too.

Clean up time baby, and we can start in Hollyweird.

In my state,(very liberal) fondling ones genitals in front of a child is a sex crime that will put you on a list for decades.

I'm a little more worried about the Catholic church to be honest, until I hear of 'Hollyweird' run schools. Whatever that means.

382 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:22:29pm

re: #378 Aceofwhat?


Marilyn Manson Now Going Door-To-Door Trying To Shock People

That evening, Linda Schmidt was preparing to drive her daughter Alyssa to a Girl Scouts meeting when she found Manson standing on her porch draped in sheep entrails.

"I knew who he was, but I was kind of busy and didn't really have time to chat," Schmidt said. "He just kept standing there staring at me, expecting me to react in some way."

Added Schmidt: "I tried to be nice and humor him a little. I said, 'Yesiree, that sure is some shocking satanic imagery, no doubt about it. And that one eye with no color in the pupil, very disturbing. I'd sure like to suppress that.' I mean, what do you say to Marilyn Manson?"

383 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:22:34pm

re: #370 Sheepdogess

Agreed.

I'd be happy to see the entire LA entertainment industry face the same scrutiny too.

Clean up time baby, and we can start in Hollyweird.

In my state,(very liberal) fondling ones genitals in front of a child is a sex crime that will put you on a list for decades.

Hollywood is a town, and an industry, it is not a single hierarchical institution like the Catholic church. Your collective punishment, it don't fly. Try again.

384 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:23:09pm

re: #203 captdiggs

The case has been made many times.
Some people just don't want to see it.
There are many aspects to Obam's stance on Israel and many actions that make it clear he is no friend of Israel's.
But, to make this somewhat short and concentrate on one overall aspect...
Obama is the one who made "settlements" the focus and a pre condition to talks between Israel and the palestinians. In all previous negotiations the settlements were considered part of those negotiations. The palestinians have never made the settlements a "pre" condition..until Obama did.
In doing this Obama handed the palestinians and all of Israel's arab neighbors a US approved escuse to not talk, to ratchet up the hate and rhetoric, and lessened any possibility of any, much less successful, negotiations.
In addition, by treating Israel as he has, including the 180 degree reversal on Israel's building in Jerusalem he damaged perhaps irreversibly any trust the Israelis might have had in him.

Settlement freeze was part of Stage 1 of the 'road map' promoted by the Bush administration. The Bush administration actively encouraged Sharon's pull-out from Gaza.

I call partisan bullshit. The case has not been made.

385 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:23:10pm

re: #382 Obdicut

I met Marilyn Manson once! he was actually pretty polite :D

386 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:23:11pm

re: #373 WindUpBird

The closest thing I can think of to the reaction to Mohammed cartoons in the Catholic Church was the reaction to Scorcese's Last Temptation of Christ, in which a theater was firebombed there were furious protests, and I believe someone crashed their car into a theater.

True- but it bears recalling there were no calls from religious authorities inciting and demanding violent behavior and in fact, you are correctly citing a single incident.

There were tens, if not more of coordinated violent incidents after the Danish cartoons were published.

387 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:23:29pm

If David Bowie and Elvis had a child it would be Adam Lambert...

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

388 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:23:41pm

re: #382 Obdicut

Marilyn Manson Now Going Door-To-Door Trying To Shock People

It's funny cuz it's true. what a poser.

389 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:24:09pm

re: #385 WindUpBird

I met Marilyn Manson once! he was actually pretty polite :D

He really awkwardly and grossly hit on a friend of mine after she said she wasn't interested, which makes him persona non grata to me.

He was semi-trashed, though.

390 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:24:10pm

re: #386 researchok

True- but it bears recalling there were no calls from religious authorities inciting and demanding violent behavior and in fact, you are correctly citing a single incident.

There were tens, if not more of coordinated violent incidents after the Danish cartoons were published.

Like I said, it was the closest... but really it wasn't THAT close.

391 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:24:18pm

re: #206 tradewind

California was one site of the visits. Edited there or not, nothing changes the fact that ACORN employees were videotaped explaining just how to lie on applications for housing and hide the purpose of a business so that obtaining a mortgage wouldn't be so hard out there for a pimp.

You really want to bet that this isn't going to get debunked, piece by piece? Did you watch the Maddow piece? O'Keefe lied, lied lied. Why should we go on believing that there's REALLY something real out there?

392 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:24:33pm

re: #229 Obdicut
Please try reading with some comprehension. I said that the cartoon was an example of filth and sacriliege, just as is the desecration of children. I did not in any way or form equate the two. I did NOT say that the cartoon is the equivalent of molesting children. I did not say that the crimes against the children was equal in moral relevance to the freaking cartoon.
' Just as ' used in my sentence does not mean ' equally as'. It is not being used in the same way as ' I am just as hungry as you are'.
Example: 'Just as the wind blows, so does the grass grow'. In this case it means ' along with'. It means ' and also'.

393 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:24:49pm

re: #389 Obdicut

He really awkwardly and grossly hit on a friend of mine after she said she wasn't interested, which makes him persona non grata to me.

He was semi-trashed, though.

oh dear XP When I met him, I was in high school, and he was opening for NIN, so this was...1993? 1994?

394 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:25:24pm

PIMF, ' were'.

395 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:25:25pm

re: #80 jamesfirecat

Wow and its on the cover and everything... (it is on the cover isn't it?)

I finally looked at it. Eh. The double-meaning was clever.

396 Sheepdogess  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:25:25pm

re: #350 MandyManners

It's just not same here. It's too bad.

And BTW, she was a breeder:^)

I wish you all well.

397 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:25:29pm

re: #389 Obdicut

He really awkwardly and grossly hit on a friend of mine after she said she wasn't interested, which makes him persona non grata to me.

He was semi-trashed, though.

OTOH, i wore white-out contacts for Halloween. Freaked my kids out!

398 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:26:31pm

re: #391 SanFranciscoZionist
So the lady taped explaining how to lie about the prostitution was faked? Someone held a gun to her head? her words were spliced and put back together?

399 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:27:22pm

re: #384 SanFranciscoZionist

Thank you SFZ.

400 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:27:57pm

re: #388 Aceofwhat?

It's funny cuz it's true. what a poser.

Nick Cave and Tom Waits are both a million times darker and more transgressive than Manson will ever be.

Tom Waits! Here's a good Tom Waits song that could be offensive, but some of my religious friends absolutely love:

401 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:28:22pm

re: #387 Thanos

If David Bowie and Elvis had a child it would be Adam Lambert...

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

Upding but ewww. I didn't need that visual.

402 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:28:34pm

re: #396 Sheepdogess

It's just not same here. It's too bad.

And BTW, she was a breeder:^)

I wish you all well.

Oh, come on. It's not so bad...

403 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:31:05pm

re: #355 Firstinla

The Catholic Church is rightfully getting pummelled for its sick tolerance of sexual abuse by priests. Then there are reports of sexual abuse in the Boy Scouts, rabbis, school teachers, and now, swimming coaches. Where and how and when does it stop?

I think the problem with the church is unique. Of course there are child molesters in all walks of life, unfortunately, and they don't all look like Aqualung either. And of course, professions or activities were children congregate will be more susceptible, like schools or daycare. But the problem with the church has been covered up for decades, who knows how long. It's spread from country to country. The perpetrators are rarely punished in court which is not so when a pedophile is caught any other time.

404 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:31:46pm

re: #392 tradewind

The picture is not an example of filth in sacrilege in any way the same way, though.

What you said was the equivalent of "Just as the wind blows, the grass blows."

Your defense is that you were implying absolutely no connection between your two statements. That makes no sense.

405 Sheepdogess  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:32:04pm

re: #383 WindUpBird

Hollywood is a town, and an industry, it is not a single hierarchical institution like the Catholic church. Your collective punishment, it don't fly. Try again.

re: #381 McSpiff

I'm a little more worried about the Catholic church to be honest, until I hear of 'Hollyweird' run schools. Whatever that means.

The entertainemt industry, along with our liberal academia own American youth.

........Schools - 32 hours a week

........Entertainmnet - anywhere from 10 - 50 hours a week

.......CHURCH - AN HOUR AND A HALF A WEEK - MAYBE


........You are both obviously CHILDLESS

406 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:32:38pm

re: #400 Obdicut

Nick Cave and Tom Waits are both a million times darker and more transgressive than Manson will ever be.

Tom Waits! Here's a good Tom Waits song that could be offensive, but some of my religious friends absolutely love:


[Video]

eh. i'm not offended, but it didn't thrill me. i tend not to care about the lyrics...longtime RHCP fan...they don't exactly pour their hearts into their lyrics. most of the time i have no idea what they're talking about!

407 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:32:38pm

re: #306 Obdicut

They have shown no signs they deplore the effect it had on the victims.

The prayer at Easter really upset my parents a lot.

My dad was largely OK, mainly because HIS priest gave the sermon my dad wanted Benedict to give.

408 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:34:21pm

re: #405 Sheepdogess

The entertainemt industry, along with our liberal academia own American youth.

...Schools - 32 hours a week

...Entertainmnet - anywhere from 10 - 50 hours a week

...CHURCH - AN HOUR AND A HALF A WEEK - MAYBE

...You are both obviously CHILDLESS

Good points, but the ALL CAPS was unneeded and came across as hostile. Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

409 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:34:48pm

re: #366 researchok

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Unlike the Mohammed cartoons, no one objected to the publication of the cartoon, and no one called for violence or death.

Are you saying that because Christians objected to the content of the cartoon as Muslims objected to the content of the Mohammed cartoons (and them some), there are no differences?

Why do Christians object to the cartoon? Why do Muslims object to the Mohammedan cartoons? The reasons are the same. The cartoons are equally objectionable.

The threat of violence is a separate issue and is the worst of the two responses.

You keep conflating the 'wrongness' of the cartoon content and the 'wrongness' of the reaction.

410 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:35:21pm

re: #405 Sheepdogess

The entertainemt industry, along with our liberal academia own American youth.

...Schools - 32 hours a week

...Entertainmnet - anywhere from 10 - 50 hours a week

...CHURCH - AN HOUR AND A HALF A WEEK - MAYBE

...You are both obviously CHILDLESS

Look, if you can show me where "liberal academia" is molesting thousands of children, you might have something resembling a point. Until then, I'm going to focus on the criminals actually molesting kids.

Seriously, try not to let your politics blind you from over looking child abuse. Quite frankly, its kind of disgusting.

411 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:36:14pm

re: #337 WindUpBird

You've pretty much eliminated my entire record collection, you know that? ;-)

This is a good example of a piece of art that was considered quite offensive for the time: Image: manet20vh0.jpg (NWS for Manet bewbs)

Why is only the woman in the foreground naked, and why is she the only figure to look out at the viewer?

(Don't know this piece at all)

412 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:36:46pm

re: #405 Sheepdogess

The entertainemt industry, along with our liberal academia own American youth.

...Schools - 32 hours a week

...Entertainmnet - anywhere from 10 - 50 hours a week

...CHURCH - AN HOUR AND A HALF A WEEK - MAYBE

...You are both obviously CHILDLESS

I don't want to speak for everyone, but i regulate my kids' entertainment carefully. I choose their schools carefully. Church is the one place where i ought to really be able to entrust them to a teacher...and it's a thousand times worse when the Church fails us. I know that Hollywood will fail my kids. I expect far, far better of the Church.

413 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:37:10pm

Remember Charlie Sexton?

414 Sheepdogess  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:37:24pm

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

Oh come on, I WAS YELLING. That's what parents do.
Sheesh.

415 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:37:36pm

re: #404 Obdicut

You know very well that I was not creating a moral equivalence between a stupid cartoon and a horrific crime against children, and yet you would really like to get that going.
There's absolutely no discussion with you. Bully someone else. It won't take you long.

416 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:37:43pm

re: #405 Sheepdogess

The entertainemt industry, along with our liberal academia own American youth.

...Schools - 32 hours a week

...Entertainmnet - anywhere from 10 - 50 hours a week

...CHURCH - AN HOUR AND A HALF A WEEK - MAYBE

...You are both obviously CHILDLESS

The one problem is that you can watch TV without the actors ever having a chance to meat you up close and personal.

So unless you believe that we can be rapped by pictures, I don't think your analogy stands up.

417 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:37:54pm

re: #411 SanFranciscoZionist

Why is only the woman in the foreground naked, and why is she the only figure to look out at the viewer?

(Don't know this piece at all)

Because women are brazen hussies?

418 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:38:04pm

re: #405 Sheepdogess

What are you talking about? First of all, nothing suprasses a parents' ability to impress things on their child. Most of all, a parent can limit their child's access to media. My parents forbade TV except in very limited amounts, usually with them, for my childhood, and I read all the time. (Oh noes, I read liberal books!) But a parent also gives a child a framework for experience, so that when I did encounter things that challenged or transgressed what my parents (and my grandmother) had taught me, I was able to interpret them rather than simply reacting to them.

Furthermore, what you said came off as very, very disrespectful to teachers, which is just bullshit.

419 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:39:09pm

re: #411 SanFranciscoZionist

Why is only the woman in the foreground naked, and why is she the only figure to look out at the viewer?

(Don't know this piece at all)

The others know not to draw into a flush.

420 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:39:15pm

re: #374 researchok

Why on earth would you presume I don't understand? Given this response, I could come to a very similar conclusion.

As yet, I don't have enough information.

You jumped to a conclusion that atheists don't like Biblical quotes because they are religious. That is far too simplistic. We object to Biblical quotes for a great many reasons, each of which is based on the context. In this case, it was because it was an evasion.

421 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:39:36pm

What's Going on?

422 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:40:18pm

re: #415 tradewind

Playing the victim card doesn't really get you anywhere with me. You said that the painting was a sacrilege and that the sexual abuse of children were sacrilege, in the same statement. You're now saying you simply said two things together that are true and weren't trying to relate them. That makes no sense at all.

It's like saying, "Littering is a crime. Murder is a crime too."

423 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:40:39pm

Marvin Gaye

424 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:41:18pm

re: #414 Sheepdogess

Oh come on, I WAS YELLING. That's what parents do.
Sheesh.

I understand. I still updinged you, because I felt your point was well made. However, i felt things could be improved and said so. That's all I was saying.

425 Sheepdogess  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:41:33pm

I have almost no respect for the intellectual ghetto.

426 Sheepdogess  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:42:01pm

re: #418 Obdicut

^^^^That was for you.

427 McSpiff  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:42:06pm

re: #425 Sheepdogess

I have almost no respect for the intellectual ghetto.

Jealously is an ugly thing.

428 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:42:09pm

re: #398 tradewind

So the lady taped explaining how to lie about the prostitution was faked? Someone held a gun to her head? her words were spliced and put back together?

Which lady are we talking about?

Does it not bother you at all that clips that were played endlessly on the news as true are completely bogus? This doesn't shake your faith in O'Keefe's work even a little bit?

429 Sheepdogess  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:42:20pm

Night all!

430 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:43:16pm

re: #429 Sheepdogess

Night all!

good night! miss me-

431 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:43:38pm

re: #403 marjoriemoon

I think the problem with the church is unique. Of course there are child molesters in all walks of life, unfortunately, and they don't all look like Aqualung either. And of course, professions or activities were children congregate will be more susceptible, like schools or daycare. But the problem with the church has been covered up for decades, who knows how long. It's spread from country to country. The perpetrators are rarely punished in court which is not so when a pedophile is caught any other time.

Now, if they did all look like Aqualung, that would help a lot.

I don't think we will ever have a culture free of abuse. But we all need to work toward a culture where every child feels safe enough and entitled enough to report immediately, and where every adult is able and willing to act and help effectively.

432 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:44:03pm

re: #411 SanFranciscoZionist

Why is only the woman in the foreground naked, and why is she the only figure to look out at the viewer?

(Don't know this piece at all)

I forgot to upding Wind for "Manet bewbs" lol

Maybe the equivalent of a lap dance.

433 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:44:09pm

re: #405 Sheepdogess

The entertainemt industry, along with our liberal academia own American youth.

...Schools - 32 hours a week

...Entertainmnet - anywhere from 10 - 50 hours a week

...CHURCH - AN HOUR AND A HALF A WEEK - MAYBE

...You are both obviously CHILDLESS

Yes, our liberal academia.

434 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:44:14pm

re: #426 Sheepdogess

^^^That was for you.

I know it was. And this is my friend Charles Muscatine, who I'm still in mourning for.

[Link: www.trackedinamerica.org...]

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

One of the best men I ever knew. Lifelong inhabitant of the 'intellectual ghetto'. Proud liberal. He taught his heart out year after year after year, and was a faithful, devoted husband, and Catholic.

And I miss him so much right now. And I don't like you at all.

435 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:45:25pm

re: #430 Aceofwhat?

good night! miss me-

If you'd hold still while I throw this thing, I wouldn't miss you.

436 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:45:53pm

re: #434 Obdicut


And I thank you for enlightening me to this man. Hero.

437 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:46:29pm

re: #425 Sheepdogess

I have almost no respect for the intellectual ghetto.

Would that be the intellectual ghetto that promotes the brain dead meme that all public schools = leftist indoctrination, or the one that promotes the brain dead meme that all media = leftist indoctrination, or are you talking about a different intellectual all together?

438 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:47:18pm

re: #435 b_sharp

If you'd hold still while I throw this thing, I wouldn't miss you.

go for it. my forehand is in good shape...

439 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:47:41pm

re: #428 SanFranciscoZionist
I don't have any particular faith in O'keefe. I do know what I saw and heard from an ACORN worker's own lips as she explained how to hide the fact that a prostitution ring would be operating out of one of the houses for which she was going to help O'K obtain a mortgage. ("Don't say ' prostitute'... say ' performance art'.)"
If every accusation was false, I suppose the indictments against ACORN workers in various states will be rescinded, and instead of folding like a cheap suit as it did , the organization will rise again, redeemed. When that happens, I'll agree that they were wronged.

440 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:48:58pm

'Nite, all.

441 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:49:27pm

re: #436 Stanley Sea

And I thank you for enlightening me to this man. Hero.

He really was. He endless tried to work for not just his own students but the entire educational system. He is the one responsible for creating the 'degree without dissertation' for people who wanted to focus on teaching rather than academic research. He was an amazing teacher who spread the love of literature through generation after generation.

I wish that the state of education had been in better shape when he passed away, but he remained eternally optimistic up until the end.

Every year, Charles would declare his freshman class brighter and more promising than the last.

442 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:50:11pm

re: #439 tradewind

I don't have any particular faith in O'keefe. I do know what I saw and heard from an ACORN worker's own lips as she explained how to hide the fact that a prostitution ring would be operating out of one of the houses for which she was going to help O'K obtain a mortgage. ("Don't say ' prostitute'... say ' performance art'.)"
If every accusation was false, I suppose the indictments against ACORN workers in various states will be rescinded, and instead of folding like a cheap suit as it did , the organization will rise again, redeemed. When that happens, I'll agree that they were wronged.

not the same. in Ohio, they were legitimately caught doing bad things. the O'Keefe thing is just laughable, on the other hand. different branches, different people, different cases.

443 tradewind  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:50:24pm

re: #422 Obdicut

Playing the victim card doesn't really get you anywhere with me.


Well dammit. And I was going to ask you for a reference.//
Please disabuse yourself of the notion that I'm trying to get anywhere with you.

444 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:52:18pm

Well, now I'm in an absolutely terrible mood, so I'm going to go drink a few drams in Charles's memory.

Anyone who doesn't love and honor teachers can screw right the fuck off.

The rest of you wonderful people, have a beautiful night. And pay attention to those old, wise men and women in your life, because you never know when you'll have to face a day without them.

445 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:54:13pm

re: #409 b_sharp

Why do Christians object to the cartoon? Why do Muslims object to the Mohammedan cartoons? The reasons are the same. The cartoons are equally objectionable.

The threat of violence is a separate issue and is the worst of the two responses.

You keep conflating the 'wrongness' of the cartoon content and the 'wrongness' of the reaction.

That one group expresses their objections to the content with threats, violence and mayhem as opposed to the other indicates that 'objectionable' means different things to different people.

446 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:54:30pm

re: #444 Obdicut

Well, now I'm in an absolutely terrible mood, so I'm going to go drink a few drams in Charles's memory.

Anyone who doesn't love and honor teachers can screw right the fuck off.

The rest of you wonderful people, have a beautiful night. And pay attention to those old, wise men and women in your life, because you never know when you'll have to face a day without them.

i told you to duck under that last barstool...

good night dude

447 DaddyLawBucks  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:54:31pm

Good nigh all.

448 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:55:51pm

Makes me Wonder

449 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:56:02pm

re: #384 SanFranciscoZionist

Settlement freeze was part of Stage 1 of the 'road map' promoted by the Bush administration. The Bush administration actively encouraged Sharon's pull-out from Gaza.

I call partisan bullshit. The case has not been made.

Bush encouraged the pull-out from Gaza, and Sharon agreed with various understandings. Sharon managed to implement the pull out. That was huge, was NO easy feat, and quite literally tore up the country. That was for 10,000 settlers.

Now we see the results, and that changes a lot of things. Before theories of the aftermath were purely theoretical... what would Palestinians do with their own plot of land with no Israeli involvement? Now the aftermath of Israeli withdrawal has a precedent, and it is a bad one.

We can't just ignore the lessons from the Lebanon pull out in 2000 and Gaza pull out in 2005.

I am really of the belief that any "peace-process"-ing would be a total farce. The only party that can actually take action that would be apparent on the world stage at this point is Israel, and as far as I am concerned they have taken more than enough risks for 0 return.

There needs to be a period without grand-standing expectations of a magical "deal" during which the Palestinians consolidate their society, develop their security cooperation with Israel, END THE INCITEMENT, and slowly win over Israeli trust.

That isn't happening.

Obama's position is basically to make it LOOK like there is movement on that front... so he pressures the one party that CAN act to make as many concessions as possible. He can't admit that the situation some time without significant action, and he can't put major pressure on the Palestinians because they are too weak as is. All that ends up happening is Obama continues to push peace further away.

450 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:56:35pm

re: #445 researchok

That one group expresses their objections to the content with threats, violence and mayhem as opposed to the other indicates that 'objectionable' means different things to different people.

By that logic, the Mohammedan cartoons were worse than the Jesus/Pope ones.

451 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 8:58:37pm

re: #420 b_sharp

You jumped to a conclusion that atheists don't like Biblical quotes because they are religious. That is far too simplistic. We object to Biblical quotes for a great many reasons, each of which is based on the context. In this case, it was because it was an evasion.

What I actually said:

Because it is religious in nature. For some people, religion is toxic.

452 researchok  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:00:23pm

re: #450 b_sharp

By that logic, the Mohammedan cartoons were worse than the Jesus/Pope ones.

No, by my logic the reaction to Mohammed cartoons was far more objectionable.

453 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:01:37pm

re: #433 SanFranciscoZionist

Hello, SFZ. you are on my long list of favorite liberal academia-acs.

454 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:03:19pm

re: #449 Joo-LiZ

That may have come across as hostile... I don't mean it to be hostile.

It's just a frustrating situation.

I'd add to the last paragraph that Obama can't pressure/call out the Palestinians because that would be tantamount to admitting that there is nobody on the Palestinian side with which to negotiate.

They desperately try to shout to the world that Mahmoud Abbas and Salaam Fayad are moderates, genuinely want peace, and only Hamas is bad. Clearest example of this was when Clinton at AIPAC stated explicitly that the naming of the square after the female terrorist involved in the coastal road massacre was in a Hamas district. This may have been technically true, but totally missed the point, and white-washed the overt involvement of many members of Fatah, and supportive statements by Abbas.

455 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:03:49pm

re: #439 tradewind

I don't have any particular faith in O'keefe. I do know what I saw and heard from an ACORN worker's own lips as she explained how to hide the fact that a prostitution ring would be operating out of one of the houses for which she was going to help O'K obtain a mortgage. ("Don't say ' prostitute'... say ' performance art'.)"
If every accusation was false, I suppose the indictments against ACORN workers in various states will be rescinded, and instead of folding like a cheap suit as it did , the organization will rise again, redeemed. When that happens, I'll agree that they were wronged.

Please watch the Maddow piece, and consider that you have been lied to. Look again at what the woman says, not what you're being told she's saying. They clearly told a number of workers not that they were operating a prostitution ring, but that Giles was a prostitute, and was having trouble getting housing because of that, which IS something ACORN is supposed to help with. Check that piece, and see if the woman actually says 'lie about a prostitution ring you're running'.

Or, just pretend everything is OK, and the people who LIED on national TV repeatedly probably weren't LYING about everything. So far, though, O'Keefe has had no wins in the courts.

456 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:05:23pm

Dr My Eyes

457 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:06:17pm

re: #455 SanFranciscoZionist

Please watch the Maddow piece, and consider that you have been lied to. Look again at what the woman says, not what you're being told she's saying. They clearly told a number of workers not that they were operating a prostitution ring, but that Giles was a prostitute, and was having trouble getting housing because of that, which IS something ACORN is supposed to help with. Check that piece, and see if the woman actually says 'lie about a prostitution ring you're running'.

Or, just pretend everything is OK, and the people who LIED on national TV repeatedly probably weren't LYING about everything. So far, though, O'Keefe has had no wins in the courts.

I think you guys are referring to different videos...

Maddow shows video specifically of the California cases. Tradewind is talking about the other cases in DC and NY.

Although what was shown by Maddow definitely puts a big fat *CAUTION* sign on the whole affair in terms of credibility.

458 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:06:49pm

re: #455 SanFranciscoZionist

*ahem*

459 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:07:24pm

re: #449 Joo-LiZ

Bush encouraged the pull-out from Gaza, and Sharon agreed with various understandings. Sharon managed to implement the pull out. That was huge, was NO easy feat, and quite literally tore up the country. That was for 10,000 settlers.

Now we see the results, and that changes a lot of things. Before theories of the aftermath were purely theoretical... what would Palestinians do with their own plot of land with no Israeli involvement? Now the aftermath of Israeli withdrawal has a precedent, and it is a bad one.

We can't just ignore the lessons from the Lebanon pull out in 2000 and Gaza pull out in 2005.

I am really of the belief that any "peace-process"-ing would be a total farce. The only party that can actually take action that would be apparent on the world stage at this point is Israel, and as far as I am concerned they have taken more than enough risks for 0 return.

There needs to be a period without grand-standing expectations of a magical "deal" during which the Palestinians consolidate their society, develop their security cooperation with Israel, END THE INCITEMENT, and slowly win over Israeli trust.

That isn't happening.

Obama's position is basically to make it LOOK like there is movement on that front... so he pressures the one party that CAN act to make as many concessions as possible. He can't admit that the situation some time without significant action, and he can't put major pressure on the Palestinians because they are too weak as is. All that ends up happening is Obama continues to push peace further away.


I largely agree with much of this, and I'm not particularly impressed with either the Obama administration or the Bush administration in regards to all of this.

I just object to the pretense that Obama's approach represents some break with ongoing U.S. policy (not that ongoing US policy has gotten us much of anywhere), or that Obama shows some special hostility toward Israel. That's fantasy, and it was getting revved up and passed around before Obama had a chance to do anything at all as President.

460 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:07:42pm

re: #452 researchok

No, by my logic the reaction to Mohammed cartoons was far more objectionable.

I didn't disagree with that.

However, the original conversation was about how objectionable the cartoons are, not how objectionable the reactions are.

461 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:08:02pm

re: #449 Joo-LiZ

Bush encouraged the pull-out from Gaza, and Sharon agreed with various understandings. Sharon managed to implement the pull out. That was huge, was NO easy feat, and quite literally tore up the country. That was for 10,000 settlers.

Now we see the results, and that changes a lot of things. Before theories of the aftermath were purely theoretical... what would Palestinians do with their own plot of land with no Israeli involvement? Now the aftermath of Israeli withdrawal has a precedent, and it is a bad one.

We can't just ignore the lessons from the Lebanon pull out in 2000 and Gaza pull out in 2005.

I am really of the belief that any "peace-process"-ing would be a total farce. The only party that can actually take action that would be apparent on the world stage at this point is Israel, and as far as I am concerned they have taken more than enough risks for 0 return.

There needs to be a period without grand-standing expectations of a magical "deal" during which the Palestinians consolidate their society, develop their security cooperation with Israel, END THE INCITEMENT, and slowly win over Israeli trust.

That isn't happening.

Obama's position is basically to make it LOOK like there is movement on that front... so he pressures the one party that CAN act to make as many concessions as possible. He can't admit that the situation some time without significant action, and he can't put major pressure on the Palestinians because they are too weak as is. All that ends up happening is Obama continues to push peace further away.

I mean, if Obama had been the one to encourage the Gaza pull-out--HOO BOY!!!

Not that Bush didn't get it in the neck from quite a few people, but still...

462 bratwurst  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:08:42pm

re: #398 tradewind

So the lady taped explaining how to lie about the prostitution was faked? Someone held a gun to her head? her words were spliced and put back together?

Watch the Maddow clip, will ya? You may not know her...she is the is Rhodes scholar who is on while you are watching high school graduate Sean Hannity.

463 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:09:18pm

re: #454 Joo-LiZ

That may have come across as hostile... I don't mean it to be hostile.

It's just a frustrating situation.

I'd add to the last paragraph that Obama can't pressure/call out the Palestinians because that would be tantamount to admitting that there is nobody on the Palestinian side with which to negotiate.

They desperately try to shout to the world that Mahmoud Abbas and Salaam Fayad are moderates, genuinely want peace, and only Hamas is bad. Clearest example of this was when Clinton at AIPAC stated explicitly that the naming of the square after the female terrorist involved in the coastal road massacre was in a Hamas district. This may have been technically true, but totally missed the point, and white-washed the overt involvement of many members of Fatah, and supportive statements by Abbas.

No, not hostile at all. You're talking real issues, not talking points, and I very much appreciate and enjoy it. I do think that the attempt to whitewash Fatah to give Abbas more standing is both ongoing, and basically a bad idea.

464 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:09:43pm

re: #451 researchok

And that is an excuse. Religion is not toxic to this objector, its USE (in terms of throwing out scripture) is ridiculous!re: #452 researchok

No, by my logic the reaction to Mohammed cartoons was far more objectionable.

Uh, it's only day 1.

465 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:09:51pm

re: #452 researchok

No, by my logic the reaction to Mohammed cartoons was far more objectionable.

Concur.

466 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:11:48pm

re: #456 Thanos

Dr My Eyes


[Video]

Love ya!

467 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:12:08pm

re: #464 Stanley Sea

Uh, it's only day 1.

Yeah, but even wingnuts won't hold up signs calling for the drawer to be beheaded. The Christian reaction to this will be much better than the Muslim reaction was, but some leftist will still pick out the nuts as an excuse to call Christians in general intolerant.

468 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:15:15pm

re: #459 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the argument against Obama has validity but gets played up to an extreme.

I really don't think he understands the implications of his policy and statements in that arena, or if he does than I think his priorities are off.

I do not think he is anti-Israel or a closet anti-semite. I do think he puts more of the blame for the conflict on the Israelis, and is much more sympathetic to the Palestinians, than previous administrations.

I think it's likely he means to show the Israelis that he means business, and he isn't going to give them a free pass on anything... but to get his point across he's overplayed his hand and has gotten the Israelis very much on the defensive and has the Palestinians licking their chops.

Which is why I'm glad the state department finally made a statement today condemning the incitement. It was the first public statement focusing on the Palestinians without first mentioning problems with Israel since the whole Ramat Shlomo incident.

Obama is lucky the Israelis have Netanyahu in power. If it was anyone else from any of the parties on the right, the whole dispute could have turned MUCH worse. Netanyahu and Amb. Oren have been doing their utmost to shout to the world how solid the bond between the countries remains, and the administration after it's initial outburst has done the same.

But there is still a sense of frostiness there, and whether or not it's a true frostiness, it'll enter into the calculations of Israel's enemies.

469 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:17:22pm

re: #467 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, but even wingnuts won't hold up signs calling for the drawer to be beheaded. The Christian reaction to this will be much better than the Muslim reaction was, but some leftist will still pick out the nuts as an excuse to call Christians in general intolerant.

DF, we will see.

470 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:20:36pm

re: #461 SanFranciscoZionist

I mean, if Obama had been the one to encourage the Gaza pull-out--HOO BOY!!!

Not that Bush didn't get it in the neck from quite a few people, but still...

Yeah, that's a point I (and others) have raised a lot.

The reason for that is because Bush had the trust of Sharon and the Israelis. They truly felt in their gut that they could take the risk and he would be in their corner.

Obama would have a much rougher time because that trust isn't there on a gut level.

I don't think there are concerns about things like US Aid and defence co-operation, but that aspect of the alliance is not the only thing that matters. Especially in the level of decision making required for taking risks.

471 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:21:09pm

re: #468 Joo-LiZ

Thank you! I think we are much of a mind--I just get sick of the 'He's an anti-Semite! NO administration ever tried to control settlement growth before!' meme.

Excellent analysis, based on real facts. You're cool!

472 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:23:43pm

re: #470 Joo-LiZ

Yeah, that's a point I (and others) have raised a lot.

The reason for that is because Bush had the trust of Sharon and the Israelis. They truly felt in their gut that they could take the risk and he would be in their corner.

Obama would have a much rougher time because that trust isn't there on a gut level.

I don't think there are concerns about things like US Aid and defence co-operation, but that aspect of the alliance is not the only thing that matters. Especially in the level of decision making required for taking risks.

The feel of the cable, the personal aspect of the relationship--I think all of that is very real and essential. And I don't get the impression that Obama is overly concerned with fixing the situation.

I have to say, though, that I think some of that lack of trust was a self-fulfilling prophecy--I saw my right-leaning Anglo-Israeli friends going into hate-Obama mode as soon as he had the nomination, portraying him as a potential disaster, and I don't think that helped a whole hell of a lot.

473 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:25:13pm

re: #460 b_sharp

'Blasphemy' is only 'blasphemy' when it's your mythical, sacred ox being gored. If it's the other guy's, then it's just free speech.
/

474 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:25:21pm

re: #471 SanFranciscoZionist

Thank you! I think we are much of a mind--I just get sick of the 'He's an anti-Semite! NO administration ever tried to control settlement growth before!' meme.

Excellent analysis, based on real facts. You're cool!

That just made my night =)

You are too!

I get so sick of the "talking point" debates. You don't learn anything and you don't convince anyone of anything that way.

When you talk about real issues and real facts and recognize nuance -- that's when things get interesting.... and REAL.

475 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:29:20pm

re: #472 SanFranciscoZionist

Could have been a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I think it's a matter of degrees. There was definitely a segment of Israelis and of Jews who didn't like him from the start, and jumped at the first opportunities to "turn" against him (I guess it wasn't really much of a turn?)

But I don't think he's done much to build any confidence either, while he has done a few things to shake that trust.

476 doubter4444  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:31:38pm

I rarely comment on this kind of stuff, because it's a waste of potential carpel tunnel finger flicks.
But the real thing these days is this:
It does not matter that the comment, the smear or the unattributed link is false. it only matters that it circulate, and add to the overall feeling and sense of lose of control and disenfranchisement.
Each can be debunked and has been, all stories spun for a right wing audience that just does not care about veracity and context.
Even "respected" figures lie outright or dissemble to the extent that would have been out of the pale even two years ago.

I think the Conservatives that are left here (and I hope you stay and prosper, you are ultimately the heart and soul of this blog) are finding it harder to defend the craziness.
The problem is that as the echo chamber gets bigger on both sides, the ability to counter real WRONGNESS from this administration (and they do get things wrong) becomes harder to counter.
And we need to counter the status quo, regardless if it's a Dem or a Rep in the office.
It's dangerous when the opposition is so ridiculous that a majority of people can't take the opposition seriously, and dangerous when a minority takes the opposition too seriously.
We are very close to bad violence.
And it's all needless.
For example Daniel Larison, (hardly a bleeding heart liberal) shakes his head at the nonsense that is Republican reaction to overseas policy.
Yet we have senior Republicans baldly stating that it's a travesty.
It's clearly not a massive shift.
Why the denial?
Were do we go from here?

477 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:36:18pm

re: #475 Joo-LiZ

Could have been a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I think it's a matter of degrees. There was definitely a segment of Israelis and of Jews who didn't like him from the start, and jumped at the first opportunities to "turn" against him (I guess it wasn't really much of a turn?)

But I don't think he's done much to build any confidence either, while he has done a few things to shake that trust.

Unfortunately, I think that last is true. His behavior has been erratic, and a little cool, and it's not making things any easier.

478 captdiggs  Sat, Apr 10, 2010 5:56:37am

re: #384 SanFranciscoZionist

Settlement freeze was part of Stage 1 of the 'road map' promoted by the Bush administration. The Bush administration actively encouraged Sharon's pull-out from Gaza.

I call partisan bullshit. The case has not been made.


And so do I.
Building in Jerusalem was never before considered a "settlement".
Also part of the stage one roadmap was " All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel", the dismantling of terrorist factions, the " unequivocal statement reiterating Israel's right to exist in peace and security", "confiscation of illegal weapons ", " Arab states cut off public and private funding and all other forms of support for groups ", "action on credible process to produce draft constitution for Palestinian statehood",...

And yet not one word about those as a pre condition to talks has been said by Obama or his administration...and certainly not in the form of public derision that Israel has received.

As far as Gaza, well, that is a prime example of why unilateral concessions on Israel's part never work. But Bush never held Israel up for worldwide condemnation as has Obama.
Obama made a huge error in handing the arabs the "settlements" as another red herring. In the process he alienated the Israeli public. He also indicated to the arab world, intentionally or not, that (official) US support for Israel has eroded thus encouraging more belligerence towards Israel.
Obama's treatment of Netanyahu weeks ago only reinforced those perceptions both with the Israelis and the arabs.
Had any arab leader, even Assad, visited the white house, there is no way in hell they would have been so shabbily treated...no way.

479 im_gumby_damnit  Sat, Apr 10, 2010 6:44:33am

I read this blog daily. There is not even a shred of antisemitism or anti-Israel sentiment. I don't get it. (I find myself saying that a lot lately.)

480 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 10, 2010 10:05:50am

re: #478 captdiggs

Building in Jerusalem was never before considered a "settlement".

This is NOT true. The Bush administration had many clashes with Ehud Olmert over the settlements in East Jerusalem, and yes -- they called them "settlements."

You really should have that raging case of Obama Derangement Syndrome looked at.

481 nekama  Sat, Apr 10, 2010 11:50:48am

Charles, I've noticed that you don't post nearly as much about the Arab war against Israel any more.

I haven't seen the "And Again" following terror attacks or reporting about Iran's continuing nuclear program and the US apparent disinterest in doing anything about it.

482 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 10, 2010 1:43:59pm

re: #481 nekama

Charles, I've noticed that you don't post nearly as much about the Arab war against Israel any more.

I haven't seen the "And Again" following terror attacks or reporting about Iran's continuing nuclear program and the US apparent disinterest in doing anything about it.

You haven't seen the "And Again" posts because it's been years since Palestinian terrorists have managed to pull off a suicide bombing in Israel, for which I am very thankful. There was a time right after 9/11 when they were doing it seemingly every week. The security barrier has apparently been more effective than anyone dared hope.

I actually hope I never have to write another one of those posts.

When there's actual news to report from Iran, it's reported here. For example, the recent protests had a lot of coverage at LGF.

483 captdiggs  Sat, Apr 10, 2010 2:22:25pm

re: #480 Charles

You really should have that raging case of Obama Derangement Syndrome looked at.

You know what the counterpart to that is?
OWS............Obama Worship Syndrome

As far as I remember, and can find, there was ONE request by Bush to stop building in E. Jerusalem. It was after Annapolis, and kept low key.
Perhaps that was because Bush had already sent a letter of agreement that the large Jewish population centers in East Jerusalem would become part of Israel in any agreement. ( Hillary Clinton, speaking for Obama, has repudiated that letter ).

Here's the thing Charles, I'm an independent who voted Clinton twice, and Al Gore, then Bush in 2004.
I don't hate Obama. I don't like his leftist views and policies, and I think he was not properly vetted by a media that was blinded by his rhetoric.
I find his apologies for America distasteful, and his bowing and scraping to the arab world and others, repugnant.
His associations with the likes of Rashid Khalidi a former PLO spokesperson, Samantha ( "the US should invade Israel") Power, whom he fired during the campaign and then put into the state department after the election, his campaign mideast policy advisor Robert Malley who had to resign after it was discovered he was meeting with hamas, the anti-Israel tirades in his church of 20 years...on and on...should have made his political leanings about Israel apparent to most.

I personally believe that Obama is only restrained in further alienating Israel due to the fact that the vast majority of Americans strongly support Israel. In fact, he was reminded of that by some 325 congressman (including many democrats) who felt a need to send Obama a letter reminding him that Israel was an ally.
Do they too, suffer from ODS?
Seeing Obama's pro arab tilt for what it is, is not a syndrome of any sort.

And I doubt Ed Koch...a very familiar democrat for decades, is suffering from any sort of syndrome either.
[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Don't let your hatred of the right blind you to what's wrong on the left.
You knew...
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

484 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 10, 2010 2:30:55pm

re: #483 captdiggs

I don't "hate" the right. The current state of the right wing is deranged; you don't hate deranged people, you just want to be far away from them.

Yes, during the election I had plenty of serious misgivings about Barack Obama based on his associations. I've been pleasantly surprised to find that as President he's been far more centrist than I thought he would be.

As for "bowing and scraping to the Arab world," Obama doesn't even come close to the Bush family.

And I can't agree that he harbors any antipathy for Israel or Jews. There's a lot of propaganda being pushed out by right wing sources to make people think the relationship is worse than it really is.

485 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 10, 2010 2:56:31pm

It looks like I'm a day late and a dollar short, as usual.

re: #202 b_sharp

re: #327 b_sharp

Well said. I don't find that kind of satire even remotely funny. When I say "that kind" of satire, I don't necessarily mean only satire where religious symbols or figures are the target, I mean satire that seems (to me) to have a sort of vicious intent, as opposed to satire that is simply insulting or mocking. I'm well aware that you said you found part of it funny—and I have to admit that I'm a bit puzzled by that—nonetheless, I appreciate your insightfulness regarding equivalencies and why people get so upset by these things.

I also agree that objectivity ("it was just a frakkin' cracker") has nothing to do with it. I mean the whole point of doing these things is to provoke a subjective response, isn't it? If not, then why bother? I have yet to meet a person who possesses the ability to step 100% outside his/her own subjectivity at will. The things that make up our terms of reference are too numerous, complex, deeply embedded, and often so subtle as to be pretty much subconscious (or perhaps even unconscious).

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see any benefit in intentionally & publicly provoking a negative reaction from a particular group of people. What's the purpose? I can't imagine it being to open a dialog—at least not with the group one has incited—who among us is willing or able to have a calm, rational discussion about anything when we're feeling hurt, angry, and deeply insulted on a very personal (as well as collective) level? It doesn't make sense. If the purpose is simply to offend in turn because one finds a particular group's behavior or beliefs offensive, then one is part of the problem not part of the solution. At least that's how I see it.

486 captdiggs  Sat, Apr 10, 2010 2:57:12pm

re: #484 Charles

As for "bowing and scraping to the Arab world," Obama doesn't even come close to the Bush family.

And I can't agree that he harbors any antipathy for Israel or Jews. There's a lot of propaganda being pushed out by right wing sources to make people think the relationship is worse than it really is.

Bush did not make that speech in Cairo which was loaded with apologies to Islam and a lot of false praise for Islam.
That speech was also a big warning sign.

As far as what I just posted about Obama regarding his associations ...none of it is based on any "right wing" propaganda. It's all factual.
All his pre-election associations are factual, and to deny that those indicated his true political views is not realistic.

It is also not realistic to think that US - Israeli ties are not at their lowest point in many decades.
The Israelis are looking at a soon to be nuclear armed Iran at the same time they have an American president they feel is not on their side and does not have the will to do anything about Iran.

487 [deleted]  Sat, Apr 10, 2010 7:07:24pm
488 Nekama  Sat, Apr 10, 2010 8:08:00pm

re: #484 Charles

And I can't agree that he harbors any antipathy for Israel . .

Obama's behavior following Biden's recent trip to Israel demonstrated antipathy to me. There was nary a peep of protest when the Palis named a square after the infamous terrorist responsible for the Coastal Road Massacre yet the US used unprecedentedly extreme language ("We condemn...") against Israel for merely announcing just one in a long series of steps toward building homes in Jerusalem, their Capital.

Then there was Hilary's notorious 43 minute dressing down of Prime Minister Netanyahu, something obviously intended to embarrass and intimidate Israel.

They're only building homes, for heaven's sakes!

I just read that The administration of President Barack Obama has refused to approve any of Israel's military requests since it entered office in January 2009. The Pentagon did not announce any weapons contracts to Israel over the last 14 months.

Maybe you ought to give it a bit more consideration.

489 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 11, 2010 6:56:21am

re: #487 Sheepdogess

Did you even glance at the obituary I posed of my friend Charles, the liberal academic who you're smearing with your petty hatred of academia?


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