Comedy Central Backs Down After Islamic Group’s Threats Over ‘South Park’

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So here we go again with a very touchy Islamic group threatening “South Park” creators Matt Stone and Trey Parker with death because the cartoon show dared to have a cartoon character version of Mohammed, the revered prophet of Islam, revered so much that if you don’t revere him some of his followers will kill you, even for a freaking cartoon. In any case, Comedy Central backed down and censored the episode: ‘South Park’ Episode Is Altered After Muslim Group’s Warning.

The tough part is that it’s actually understandable why a corporation would back down. They have a responsibility to keep their employees safe, and the kinds of cretins who make death threats for this kind of stuff won’t hesitate to direct attacks at any Comedy Central employees, buildings, vehicles, or random passers-by they might encounter. It’s not really up to Stone and Parker at that point, no matter how much they might (or might not) want to take a stand; they’re not the only potential targets.

Still sucks, though. And the threats will continue until a stiffer spine shows up somewhere in the media.

UPDATE at 4/22/10 3:26:24 pm:

Anderson Cooper interviews Ayaan Hirsi Ali about these threats, and the murder of her associate Theo Van Gogh in Amsterdam:

FLV Video

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520 comments
1 Kragar  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:26:44pm

Parker and Stone's comments on the show:

In the 14 years we’ve been doing South Park we have never done a show that we couldn’t stand behind. We delivered our version of the show to Comedy Central and they made a determination to alter the episode. It wasn’t some meta-joke on our part. Comedy Central added the bleeps. In fact, Kyle’s customary final speech was about intimidation and fear. It didn’t mention Muhammad at all but it got bleeped too. We’ll be back next week with a whole new show about something completely different and we’ll see what happens to it.

2 bosforus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:26:57pm

Santa Claus dressed as Mohammed dressed as a bear offends me.

3 bosforus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:27:06pm

re: #2 bosforus

Santa Claus dressed as Mohammed dressed as a bear offends me.

As a Christian.

4 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:27:16pm

South Park buckles. Is nothing sacred?

5 Political Atheist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:27:36pm

I will not be holding my breath waiting for a spine to grow at any media outlet. except of course for salary negotiations. If their money had been threatened, no you would have a fight. Does anyone know if this is a first for the show to censor?

6 badger1970  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:28:04pm

Has this group ever said anything about the super friends episode?

7 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:28:18pm
Still sucks, though. And the threats will continue until a stiffer spine shows up somewhere in the media.

That really says it all.

8 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:28:19pm

They need to just put it up on You Tube and any other video streaming site that will take it.

9 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:28:32pm

re: #4 Shiplord Kirel

South Park buckles. Is nothing sacred?

No, comedy central buckled.

10 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:29:12pm

Haven't watched South Park in years, except to check in on it and confirm I still don't like it.

Kudos to them for taking a stand on this.

Salman Rushdie still kicks ass.

11 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:30:45pm

I think the thing that's most offensive about this is that South Park has consistently insulted everyone, for a very long time.

Honestly, I thought the Danish cartoons were offensive. I did not like them, and I did not like how they came about, without giving any credence or tolerance to people willing to kill over such nonsense.

But South Park has never recognized any sacred (or scared) cows, and I have appreciated them for this, even as they have made me wince a lot.

I'm sorry Comedy Central decided to alter the program.

12 Linden Arden  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:30:57pm

It does suck.

While the US is unique in that blasphemy (of any type) is Constitutionally protected speech corporations may muzzle their employees or agents in any way they decide.

A contract is a contract.

The courageous thing to do would be to allow Parker and Stone to publish the unedited episode on a web site they choose.

13 Kragar  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:31:19pm

To keep DaddyG happy, I'll post this

14 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:32:22pm

re: #6 badger1970

Has this group ever said anything about the super friends episode?

I was just flattered they included Joseph Smith in the pantheon of prophets.

Matt and Trey skewer everyone who deserves it (also known as everyone). I thought their poking fun at my religion in two of their eposides was good natured and pretty even handed. Of course they the answer of "who was the true religion" given to a group of people in hell was "Um... that would be the Mormons, yes the Mormons." That was good for a few laughs in our household.

The Catholics and Scientologists have received the South Park treatment more frequently and severely than anyone. I have jet to see a fatwah issued by the Pope or the Church of Scientology.

This is just the latest excuse for seething as usual.

15 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:32:27pm

"Either all of its okay, or none of it is"

-South Park

South Park has been allowed to show some pretty ridiculous things, including Jesus Christ defecating on an American flag.

Comedy Central's decision to back down on this nonsense is disheartening.

16 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:32:36pm

Don't worry, they can just go back and keep pushing their Mormon Broadway play. That's the scariest group you could ever offend.

/

17 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:33:16pm

re: #4 Shiplord Kirel

South Park buckles. Is nothing sacred?


Not South Park- the network. They censored the crap out of the episode.

18 charles_martel  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:34:04pm

re: #5 Rightwingconspirator

I will not be holding my breath waiting for a spine to grow at any media outlet. except of course for salary negotiations. If their money had been threatened, no you would have a fight. Does anyone know if this is a first for the show to censor?

No, it isn't the first time. The last time they tried to show mohammad, Comedy Central censored the show. I understand what Charles said about the corporation needing to be responsible, but that is how free speech is lost.

19 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:34:27pm

Turn Mel Brooks & Monty Python on the humorless ROP.

20 Randall Gross  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:34:55pm

They have a long history of forcing "self censorship" on companies, here's another example:

JoJo's Bizarre Adventure censored

21 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:35:11pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the thing that's most offensive about this is that South Park has consistently insulted everyone, for a very long time.

Honestly, I thought the Danish cartoons were offensive. I did not like them, and I did not like how they came about, without giving any credence or tolerance to people willing to kill over such nonsense.

But South Park has never recognized any sacred (or scared) cows, and I have appreciated them for this, even as they have made me wince a lot.

I'm sorry Comedy Central decided to alter the program.

Actually I am all for the Mohammed cartoons.

There is a large, violent and well funded subset of Muslims who think just like what those cartoons were satirizing. Just ask Daniel Pearl or the people of NY if that is true or not. Hell, if it weren't true, Comedy Central wouldn't have buckled or had reason to over this - now would they? Those cartoons were rather accurate representations of a certain reality.

The best and most powerful weapon against a dogmatic ideology is ridicule and satire. If you can laugh at the guy who tells you God wants you to do x, then you can laugh at the idea of doing x.

22 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:35:17pm

Well this is certainly going to help fuel the R.R. meme that "liberals and atheists" feel free to attack and mock the Christian beliefs at every chance but don't care or wont dare to go after the Muslim beliefs.

/considering what it happening out there it seems they may have a point after all ehh?

23 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:35:26pm

re: #6 badger1970

Has this group ever said anything about the super friends episode?

No one has said a peep about it other than to point out "why was it ok then but not now?". You can still go to southparkstudios.com and watch it, with no censoring.

24 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:35:32pm

Here is Anderson Cooper and Ayaan Hirsi Ali discussing the issue.

25 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:36:09pm

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

To keep DaddyG happy, I'll post this

Enabler!

26 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:36:57pm

Pussies.

I'll say it now: I think Mohammed probably had sex with goats, ate from the soles of the shoes of lepers, and was generally rude to guests.

Now, in any other context, this would just be rude, but for some reason some segment of the Muslim world thinks such a thing is worthy of murder.

I say fuck them. More satire is the answer, not less.

27 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:37:12pm

re: #16 Oh no...Sand People!

Don't worry, they can just go back and keep pushing their Mormon Broadway play. That's the scariest group you could ever offend.

/


I honestly think we're too boring to trouble with.

28 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:37:22pm

posted this last night:

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

Its the NYpost covering the story. Check the comments for why I comment at LGF instead of NYPost.

29 SteveB4  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:37:23pm

I read somewhere that the makers of the film "2012" caved after similar threats and removed images of Mecca being demolished. Christ The Redeemer in Brazil was still fair game though.

30 charles_martel  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:38:50pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

Honestly, I thought the Danish cartoons were offensive. I did not like them, and I did not like how they came about, without giving any credence or tolerance to people willing to kill over such nonsense.

Of the original Danish cartoons, only a few were actually (or potentially) offensive. Several were simply depictions of a regular guy. What caused the stir was a couple of Danish imams who added a few of their own, really offensive images, and took them down to the ME and stirred up the trouble months later. So, in actuality, the whole cartoon outrage was totally manufactured.

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:39:05pm

re: #26 Fozzie Bear

Pussies.

I'll say it now: I think Mohammed probably had sex with goats, ate from the soles of the shoes of lepers, and was generally rude to guests.

Now, in any other context, this would just be rude, but for some reason some segment of the Muslim world thinks such a thing is worthy of murder.

I say fuck them. More satire is the answer, not less.

It is rude. The existence of fanatics should not make the rest of us lose our manners.

I exempt South Park from this, of course, because they have never had any manners, nor pretended to.

32 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:39:06pm

re: #27 DaddyG

I honestly think we're too boring to trouble with.

Nope, it's in the works. [Link: www.abc4.com...]

Shooting fish in a barrel is all the rage I s'pose.

33 webevintage  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:39:16pm

re: #1 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Parker and Stone's comments on the show:It wasn’t some meta-joke on our part. Comedy Central added the bleeps. In fact, Kyle’s customary final speech was about intimidation and fear.

Wow.
We thought it was all part of a meta-joke and laughed...now I feel kind of sick about the whole.
And fuck you Comedy Channel.

(and when i read about this earlier today I thought this was all part of a point that Parker and Stone were making.)

34 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:39:27pm

re: #29 SteveB4

I read somewhere that the makers of the film "2012" caved after similar threats and removed images of Mecca being demolished. Christ The Redeemer in Brazil was still fair game though.

One deity has a higher tolerance for satire than another deity?

/ducks jihadist knife.

35 simoom  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:40:42pm

BoingBoing interviewing Matt Stone and Trey Parker last week:

Jump to about 1:55 to see them discussing the inclusion of the Prophet Mohammed in their celebrity episode. There's also clips of the SuperFriends episode which did include a cartoon Prophet Mohammed, and triggered no outrage, prior to the Danish cartoons.

36 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:41:46pm

re: #29 SteveB4

I read somewhere that the makers of the film "2012" caved after similar threats and removed images of Mecca being demolished. Christ The Redeemer in Brazil was still fair game though.

Orson Scott Card has a portrayal of Mecca as a radioactive wasteland in the Ender shadow series. His description of the post-radiated leaders of Islam is sympathetic however. I wonder if he's received threats?

37 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:42:02pm

re: #35 simoom

So the Superfriends one was not censored?

38 mich-again  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:42:07pm

Boy oh boy, that is some powerful prophet you got there. Afraid of Cartman and Kenny and the Chef. ha.

39 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:42:28pm

Aside from rampant murder of innocents, I'm pretty sure this kind of yellowness is what it looks like when the terrorists win.

40 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:42:29pm

I thought the beeping out was part of the joke so I laughed. I really thought they said it best through Randy last week "Oh it's okay to make fun of Jesus but you can't make fun of Muhammad." These Muslims have to understand that their Muhammad is not immune from criticism or satire. It's weird though to see all this outrage because I remember the episode with the Super Best Friends where Muhammad was actually shown. I am not sure if that episode was pre or post 9-11. One thing I liked about the episode last night is that Tom Cruise lost his censored status as soon as he was made fun. I certainly don't agree with Parker/Stone on everything but they really do a great job of showing why things are absurd in a brilliant way. It's too bad they got bullied by these assholes.

41 simoom  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:42:34pm

re: #37 Obdicut

So the Superfriends one was not censored?

Right, and still reairs uncensored. Though perhaps that's just because noone's noticed yet... :o

42 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:42:55pm

re: #38 mich-again

Boy oh boy, that is some powerful prophet you got there. Afraid of Cartman and Kenny and the Chef. ha.

dude. cartman killed a kids parents and made him eat them. i'd be scared of that.

43 Randall Gross  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:42:56pm

If they can put Bill White in Jail for this shit, they can put Revolution Muslim in jail for this shit.

44 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:43:29pm

re: #38 mich-again

Boy oh boy, that is some powerful prophet you got there. Afraid of Cartman and Kenny and the Chef. ha.

Mohammed killed Kenny! You Bastard!

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:44:07pm

re: #30 charles_martel

Of the original Danish cartoons, only a few were actually (or potentially) offensive. Several were simply depictions of a regular guy. What caused the stir was a couple of Danish imams who added a few of their own, really offensive images, and took them down to the ME and stirred up the trouble months later. So, in actuality, the whole cartoon outrage was totally manufactured.

I agree that only a few were offensive. Some of them I thought were rather charming, and many resembled images from Muslim art, hilariously enough.

What bothered me is that I understand the artists were being asked to submit them, and they were published, in response to a perceived ban on doing such a thing by Muslim protesters.

I am bothered by the idea that breaking a faith's prohibitions, when one is not a member of the faith or community, should be considered 'edgy', artistic or appropriate. I would not have minded if they were individual political cartoons, but the story, as I understood it, struck me as somewhat distasteful.

Just a matter of taste and opinion.

46 Radical Rafe  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:44:44pm

Where do you think this "stiffer spine" is going to show up in the media?

47 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:44:54pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the thing that's most offensive about this is that South Park has consistently insulted everyone, for a very long time.

Honestly, I thought the Danish cartoons were offensive. I did not like them, and I did not like how they came about, without giving any credence or tolerance to people willing to kill over such nonsense.

But South Park has never recognized any sacred (or scared) cows, and I have appreciated them for this, even as they have made me wince a lot.

I'm sorry Comedy Central decided to alter the program.

You know which over group really took exception to their mocking on South Park?

That's right. Scientologists.

48 Randall Gross  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:44:59pm

re: #24 Oh no...Sand People!

Charles, that clip from CNN would make a great update.

49 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:45:15pm

re: #32 Oh no...Sand People!

Nope, it's in the works. [Link: www.abc4.com...]

Shooting fish in a barrel is all the rage I s'pose.


If we can do "Singles Ward" I suppose they can take a shot. They lived among a fairly high density LDS population for years. On the other hand its one thing to do self-depricating humor and another all together to do satire about others. I don't suppose a group of white comics would be applauded for doing a Chris Rock skit.

Still- in the end I doubt there will be a death threat coming from 50 North Temple, SLC Utah anytime soon.

50 Locker  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:45:44pm

I know we are supposed to be sensitive and all but making threats pretty much nulls and voids any expectation of "sensitivity". I can call Mohammad a four assed baboon if I want and that's my prerogative and if anyone thinks their personal religion entitles them to threaten or hurt me for saying it then they can jam that bullshit straight up their ass.

Fuckheads.

51 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:45:48pm

re: #46 Radical Rafe

Where do you think this "stiffer spine" is going to show up in the media?

Jon Stewart could do it.

And having to support Jon Stewart for his boldness and Patriotism would probably make heads at Fox explode, so you know, double bonus.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:46:52pm

re: #47 Dante41

You know which over group really took exception to their mocking on South Park?

That's right. Scientologists.

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to convince my husband that Jews don't sacrifice macaroni paintings to Moses, and that Moses and Haman are not conceptualized as conflicting forces of light and darkness...

53 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:47:19pm

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

It is rude. The existence of fanatics should not make the rest of us lose our manners.

I exempt South Park from this, of course, because they have never had any manners, nor pretended to.

When did we become such a nation of cowards? WE either do, or don't believe, as a nation, in total freedom of expression. I realize that this doesn't mean that Comedy Central has to say things like this, but honestly, out of all the things that have been said on South Park, *this* is the thing that they back down on?

Using fear as a tool of manipulation is the M.O. for these assholes. I'm just really disappointed every time we respond as though they aren't lashing out from a position of utter weakness. They killed 3000ish people, a tiny fraction of our population, and we responded *exactly* as they wanted us to. We lost our cool, overreached, and generally freaked out.

I am *not* proud of my countrymen right now. We need to stop backing down, stop reacting predictably irrationally, and frankly, stop bending to the wills of those who have no power save that of the *threat* of violence.

This pisses me off, and I don't even particularly like South Park.

54 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:47:32pm
"...And the threats will continue until a stiffer spine shows up somewhere in the media."

"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?"
- Rabbi Hillel

55 Locker  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:47:39pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to convince my husband that Jews don't sacrifice macaroni paintings to Moses, and that Moses and Haman are not conceptualized as conflicting forces of light and darkness...

The lack of soap sculptures WILL cause the next apolocypse...

56 Radical Rafe  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:48:13pm

re: #51 eastsider

I'm not a regular viewer of Stewart's show. Has he ever taken on Islam?

57 bosforus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:48:29pm

re: #49 DaddyG

If we can do "Singles Ward"...

Don't tell people about that movie, pleeeease! That's the last thing people need to be watching to learn about us.
;)

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:48:34pm

re: #51 eastsider

Jon Stewart could do it.

And having to support Jon Stewart for his boldness and Patriotism would probably make heads at Fox explode, so you know, double bonus.

A group of journalists did a page ad in Newsweek, calling attention to the journalists imprisioned in Iran. The Daily Show crew all signed. I think they felt like crap after they realized they'd contributed to Maziar Bahari being arrested.

59 mich-again  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:49:06pm

Maybe they should make an episode where the kids from South Park sneak into Mecca during Haj and get caught up in a stampede.

60 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:49:13pm

I'm personally more comfortable with South Park mocking Joseph Smith (considered a prophet by LDS) than I am their treatment of Jesus Christ (considered a God by LDS).

If I put it in context what they are parodying is the crazy folk beliefs that spring up about God. Superhero friends, hippie Jesus, etc. I don't see it as blasphemy as much as a mirror into the crazier aspects of our culture that we impose upon our images of diety.

61 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:49:14pm

re: #49 DaddyG

If we can do "Singles Ward" I suppose they can take a shot. They lived among a fairly high density LDS population for years. On the other hand its one thing to do self-depricating humor and another all together to do satire about others. I don't suppose a group of white comics would be applauded for doing a Chris Rock skit.

Still- in the end I doubt there will be a death threat coming from 50 North Temple, SLC Utah anytime soon.

Well, when they get the guts to do, Mo the Musical, I'll give them 'street cred'.

62 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:49:41pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to convince my husband that Jews don't sacrifice macaroni paintings to Moses, and that Moses and Haman are not conceptualized as conflicting forces of light and darkness...

Don't tell him Moses doesn't look like the MCP from Tron though. Got to have some fun.

63 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:49:47pm

re: #53 Fozzie Bear

When did we become such a nation of cowards? WE either do, or don't believe, as a nation, in total freedom of expression. I realize that this doesn't mean that Comedy Central has to say things like this, but honestly, out of all the things that have been said on South Park, *this* is the thing that they back down on?

Using fear as a tool of manipulation is the M.O. for these assholes. I'm just really disappointed every time we respond as though they aren't lashing out from a position of utter weakness. They killed 3000ish people, a tiny fraction of our population, and we responded *exactly* as they wanted us to. We lost our cool, overreached, and generally freaked out.

I am *not* proud of my countrymen right now. We need to stop backing down, stop reacting predictably irrationally, and frankly, stop bending to the wills of those who have no power save that of the *threat* of violence.

This pisses me off, and I don't even particularly like South Park.

I know how you feel.

64 Racer X  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:50:04pm

We should never mock anyone.

65 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:50:05pm

re: #56 Radical Rafe

I'm not a regular viewer of Stewart's show. Has he ever taken on Islam?

i can't recall off the top of my head. but in this case i think he'd take on comedy central for its hypocrisy.

he seems to do a halfway decent job at pointing out hypocrisy, and occasionally touches on it during his shows.

66 Political Atheist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:50:15pm

re: #18 charles_martel

Comedy Central offends everyone sooner or later. One way of looking at this-Now Comedy Central has established that in their view only one religion deserves to be accommodated by censorship. no matter what offended Christians, Jews, Atheists, whoever, you are now on official notice you are less important than angry Islamics, as evidenced by their actions.

67 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:50:16pm

re: #56 Radical Rafe

How do you 'take on Islam'?

68 Linden Arden  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:50:24pm

re: #26 Fozzie Bear

Pussies.

I'll say it now: I think Mohammed probably had sex with goats, ate from the soles of the shoes of lepers, and was generally rude to guests.

Serious question (I agree with you, btw).

Would you wear that T-shirt in public?

I doubt I would. I would fear violent retaliation.

And that is what pisses me off.

69 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:50:34pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to convince my husband that Jews don't sacrifice macaroni paintings to Moses, and that Moses and Haman are not conceptualized as conflicting forces of light and darkness...

Hah! And next you are going to tell me that Terrorists didn't attack our imaginations.

/

70 bosforus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:50:45pm

re: #61 Oh no...Sand People!

Well, when they get the guts to do, Mo the Musical, I'll give them 'street cred'.

Remember this? Not exactly Mo, but it's still good.
I Wanna Be Like Osama

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:50:50pm

re: #56 Radical Rafe

I'm not a regular viewer of Stewart's show. Has he ever taken on Islam?

He's said many hostile and true things about Muslim individuals and states.

72 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:51:00pm

re: #61 Oh no...Sand People!

Well, when they get the guts to do, Mo the Musical, I'll give them 'street cred'.


Featuring Brigham Young and a cast of thousands (of wives and children)... /

73 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:51:21pm

re: #64 Racer X

We should never mock anyone.


...or use sarcasm. Sarcasm is evil.

74 Locker  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:51:24pm

re: #68 Linden Arden

Serious question (I agree with you, btw).

Would you wear that T-shirt in public?

I doubt I would. I would fear violent retaliation.

And that is what pisses me off.

Not only would I wear it... I'd start a nice twitter flash mob tons of folks all wearing them and dancing the macarena.

75 Radical Rafe  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:51:53pm

re: #67 Obdicut


Well, I imagine the way Jon Stewart would take on Islam would be, to do what he does to lots of other people and subjects.

76 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:51:57pm

re: #47 Dante41

You know which over group really took exception to their mocking on South Park?

That's right. Scientologists.

And then Isaac Hayes left because he couldn't take them mocking the CoS, and received the most savage South Park treatment I've ever seen :D

77 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:52:01pm

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

It is rude. The existence of fanatics should not make the rest of us lose our manners.

I exempt South Park from this, of course, because they have never had any manners, nor pretended to.

What is rude?

Let me give you several Jewish parallels that really are precisely analogous.

We never say the Name. We never pronounce it. You know that there are very many deep reasons for this.

Whenever I see the phrase J's Witness or the the other vocalization of the Tetragrammaton Y----H, my belly literally gets a knot.

It must be pretty much exactly the way a Muslim who sees a depiction of his prophet as idolatry must feel when he sees an image of Muhammad.

OK I can be very sensitive to that. I can also be sensitive to the fact that J's Witnesses get to live in a free country with me, and that their attempt to vocalize the Name is ultimately between them and Hashem.

I can go even further though. When a large segment of a certain religious group is preaching that their prophet wants me and my family dead, I sure as hell have the right to criticize their prophet. I get to point out the irony of the fact that a bunch of people who see terrorism as justified by your religion want to scare you so badly that you will never criticize them, and ironically have gotten their own message out so clearly that people do associate Muhammad now with terrorism, whether or not that is fair to Muslims in general, and it is not Muslims in general making this noise anyway - it's the ones who are threatening to kill people.

I can go even further.

Criticizing religion is the only way to mitigate the extremes of a religion. If you want to see the terrorists truly defeated, the best and only way to truly do that is to destroy their world view by showing the lunacy of it and satire is the best way to do that ever invented by man.

78 Kragar  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:52:15pm

re: #64 Racer X

We should never mock anyone.

Yes, we should.

Main Entry: mock

transitive verb
1 : to treat with contempt or ridicule

Plenty of people deserving of contempt and ridicule.

79 Linden Arden  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:52:40pm

re: #74 Locker

Not only would I wear it... I'd start a nice twitter flash mob tons of folks all wearing them and dancing the macarena.

I'd go with the flash mob for sure.

80 garhighway  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:52:55pm

re: #67 Obdicut

How do you 'take on Islam'?

I think you go for its knees. It has a torn ACL.

81 Locker  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:53:11pm

re: #77 LudwigVanQuixote

What is rude?

Let me give you several Jewish parallels that really are precisely analogous.

We never say the Name. We never pronounce it. You know that there are very many deep reasons for this.

Whenever I see the phrase J's Witness or the the other vocalization of the Tetragrammaton Y---H, my belly literally gets a knot.

It must be pretty much exactly the way a Muslim who sees a depiction of his prophet as idolatry must feel when he sees an image of Muhammad.

OK I can be very sensitive to that. I can also be sensitive to the fact that J's Witnesses get to live in a free country with me, and that their attempt to vocalize the Name is ultimately between them and Hashem.

I can go even further though. When a large segment of a certain religious group is preaching that their prophet wants me and my family dead, I sure as hell have the right to criticize their prophet. I get to point out the irony of the fact that a bunch of people who see terrorism as justified by your religion want to scare you so badly that you will never criticize them, and ironically have gotten their own message out so clearly that people do associate Muhammad now with terrorism, whether or not that is fair to Muslims in general, and it is not Muslims in general making this noise anyway - it's the ones who are threatening to kill people.

I can go even further.

Criticizing religion is the only way to mitigate the extremes of a religion. If you want to see the terrorists truly defeated, the best and only way to truly do that is to destroy their world view by showing the lunacy of it and satire is the best way to do that ever invented by man.

Preach...on....brother.

82 webevintage  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:53:21pm

re: #42 eastsider

dude. cartman killed a kids parents and made him eat them. i'd be scared of that.

SPOILER!!!!!!!


We found out last night that that man, Scott Tenorman's father was also...dadadadum.....Cartman's FATHER!
Yes, he killed his father.
It was brilliant.

83 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:53:25pm

re: #80 garhighway

I think you go for its knees. It has a torn ACL.

I didn't know Islam played for the Mets

84 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:53:57pm

re: #68 Linden Arden

Serious question (I agree with you, btw).

Would you wear that T-shirt in public?

I doubt I would. I would fear violent retaliation.

And that is what pisses me off.

Frankly, I think we all should, to prove a point. And yes, I would. (Not in the Middle East, mind you, bbut here I definitely would) And that's my point.

We literally have nothing to fear but fear itself. When we act like cowards, they win. Fuck them and their thin-skinned prophet, imo.

85 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:54:04pm

re: #82 webevintage

SPOILER!!!

We found out last night that that man, Scott Tenorman's father was also...dadadadum...Cartman's FATHER!
Yes, he killed his father.
It was brilliant.

agh! I didn't see it. Well, I'm sure it'll still be funny.

86 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:54:06pm

re: #68 Linden Arden

Serious question (I agree with you, btw).

Would you wear that T-shirt in public?

I doubt I would. I would fear violent retaliation.

And that is what pisses me off.

I would. I have a sweater featuring a Image: stoningDM_468x406.jpg lady buried halfway to her waste in preparation for a stoning. Great at breaking the ice at parties. I am stronger than their war of fear. This 'stoning' still takes place.

87 DaddyG  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:54:07pm

BBL bus time!

88 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:54:14pm

re: #76 WindUpBird

And then Isaac Hayes left because he couldn't take them mocking the CoS, and received the most savage South Park treatment I've ever seen :D

It's worse than that. The CoS made him leave. He didn't want to do it, in fact, he tried to tell them that South Park did that to everyone, but they wouldn't listen. Hayes apparently told Stone and Parker that he had to quit with tears in his eyes.

89 Locker  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:54:29pm

re: #85 eastsider

agh! I didn't see it. Well, I'm sure it'll still be funny.

Me either he got me too, I flashed right by the SPOILER

90 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:55:15pm

re: #77 LudwigVanQuixote

We do satire and humor better than anybody. That is the peculiar American gift. We should use it, and use it to the fullest extent we can.

91 Locker  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:55:51pm

re: #86 Oh no...Sand People!

I would. I have a sweater featuring a Image: stoningDM_468x406.jpg lady buried halfway to her waste in preparation for a stoning. Great at breaking the ice at parties. I am stronger than their war of fear. This 'stoning' still takes place.

I really, really wished I hadn't looked at that picture. That picture would look a whole lot different 3 minutes after I showed up in that scene. Talk about rage inducing...

92 webevintage  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:55:53pm

I'm soooooo sorry, not enough spolier thingiees....if someone with power wants to erase it go ahead.

93 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:56:09pm

re: #88 Dante41

It's worse than that. The CoS made him leave. He didn't want to do it, in fact, he tried to tell them that South Park did that to everyone, but they wouldn't listen. Hayes apparently told Stone and Parker that he had to quit with tears in his eyes.

As an addendum to the above, they killed off Chef the way they did just to show what Scientology does to people. The CoS actually managed to piss them off.

94 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:56:29pm

re: #53 Fozzie Bear

When did we become such a nation of cowards? WE either do, or don't believe, as a nation, in total freedom of expression. I realize that this doesn't mean that Comedy Central has to say things like this, but honestly, out of all the things that have been said on South Park, *this* is the thing that they back down on?

Using fear as a tool of manipulation is the M.O. for these assholes. I'm just really disappointed every time we respond as though they aren't lashing out from a position of utter weakness. They killed 3000ish people, a tiny fraction of our population, and we responded *exactly* as they wanted us to. We lost our cool, overreached, and generally freaked out.

I am *not* proud of my countrymen right now. We need to stop backing down, stop reacting predictably irrationally, and frankly, stop bending to the wills of those who have no power save that of the *threat* of violence.

This pisses me off, and I don't even particularly like South Park.

They also backed down from Tom Cruise and the Church of Scientology once. Of course you could still find and watch the "banned" episode on the internet though...

95 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:56:32pm

Sheesh! The convergence is complete.

Liberal icon catches up: Racist teabagger Noam Chomsky slams Obama, defends Tea Party, Palin

The level of anger and fear is like nothing I can compare in my lifetime. Ridiculing the tea party shenanigans is a serious error. For over 30 years, real incomes have stagnated or declined…The bankers, who are primarily responsible for the crisis, are now reveling in record bonuses while official unemployment is around 10 percent and unemployment in the manufacturing sector is at Depression-era levels. The financial industry preferred Obama to McCain. They expected to be rewarded and they were. Then Obama began to criticize greedy bankers and proposed measures to regulate them. And the punishment for this was very swift: they were going to shift their money to the Republicans. So Obama said bankers are ‘fine guys’ and assured the business world: ‘I, like most of the American people, don't begrudge people success or wealth. That is part of the free-market system.’ People see that and are not happy about it. People want some answers. They are hearing answers from only one place: Fox, talk radio, and Sarah Palin.

Besides providing additional confirmation that Chomsky is a crank bomb-thrower*, this confirms our worst fears about the tea party movement.

*Only figuratively. I think.

96 Linden Arden  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:56:34pm

re: #90 Fozzie Bear

We do satire and humor better than anybody. That is the peculiar American gift. We should use it, and use it to the fullest extent we can.

Definitely.

I read this and thought immediately of Mark Twain and George Carlin.

The two masters of satire and humor.

97 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:56:36pm

re: #90 Fozzie Bear

We do satire and humor better than anybody. That is the peculiar American gift. We should use it, and use it to the fullest extent we can.

I actually think that the Brits do satire rather well too.

98 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:56:53pm

re: #92 webevintage

I'm sooo sorry, not enough spolier thingiees...if someone with power wants to erase it go ahead.

its no big deal. anyone who's that interested in the season-spanning plot lines of south park is in it for the wrong reasons anyway.

99 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:57:17pm

re: #90 Fozzie Bear

You haven't read The Master and Margarita, by Mikhail Bulgakov.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Best damn satire ever. Of the USSR, of writers, of religion, of everything.

100 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:57:36pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to convince my husband that Jews don't sacrifice macaroni paintings to Moses, and that Moses and Haman are not conceptualized as conflicting forces of light and darkness...

"Elder Garth, from the Synagogue of Anti-Semites."
"I don't believe I've heard of the anti-Semitic sect of Judaism before"
"We're new."

101 charles_martel  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:57:51pm

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

I agree that only a few were offensive. Some of them I thought were rather charming, and many resembled images from Muslim art, hilariously enough.

What bothered me is that I understand the artists were being asked to submit them, and they were published, in response to a perceived ban on doing such a thing by Muslim protesters.

I am bothered by the idea that breaking a faith's prohibitions, when one is not a member of the faith or community, should be considered 'edgy', artistic or appropriate. I would not have minded if they were individual political cartoons, but the story, as I understood it, struck me as somewhat distasteful.

Just a matter of taste and opinion.

Well, that's the heart of the matter. the prohibition against the image of mohammad is a mulsim law for muslims. We are not obligated to follow muslim law, and the islamists are trying to make their law govern us. Also, the reason for the prohibition is that muslims won't be tempted to worship the image and indulge in idolatry. The spirit of the law is about muslim acts of worship, not arbitrary prohibitions.

I wholeheartedly support the Danish cartoons, because we need to vigorously defend freedom of speech. If we give it up, inch by inch, we will wake up one day with no freedom of speech at all. True freedom of speech includes the right to offend.

102 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:57:58pm

re: #77 LudwigVanQuixote

What is rude?

Let me give you several Jewish parallels that really are precisely analogous.

We never say the Name. We never pronounce it. You know that there are very many deep reasons for this.

Whenever I see the phrase J's Witness or the the other vocalization of the Tetragrammaton Y---H, my belly literally gets a knot.

It must be pretty much exactly the way a Muslim who sees a depiction of his prophet as idolatry must feel when he sees an image of Muhammad.

OK I can be very sensitive to that. I can also be sensitive to the fact that J's Witnesses get to live in a free country with me, and that their attempt to vocalize the Name is ultimately between them and Hashem.

I can go even further though. When a large segment of a certain religious group is preaching that their prophet wants me and my family dead, I sure as hell have the right to criticize their prophet. I get to point out the irony of the fact that a bunch of people who see terrorism as justified by your religion want to scare you so badly that you will never criticize them, and ironically have gotten their own message out so clearly that people do associate Muhammad now with terrorism, whether or not that is fair to Muslims in general, and it is not Muslims in general making this noise anyway - it's the ones who are threatening to kill people.

I can go even further.

Criticizing religion is the only way to mitigate the extremes of a religion. If you want to see the terrorists truly defeated, the best and only way to truly do that is to destroy their world view by showing the lunacy of it and satire is the best way to do that ever invented by man.

Too bad the MSM is too scared chickenshit for the job.

103 SteveB4  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:57:59pm

For those who are interested (be sure to scroll down to the bit about knocking over Christ The Redeemer as a statement against organized religion):

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

104 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:58:51pm

re: #91 Locker

I really, really wished I hadn't looked at that picture. That picture would look a whole lot different 3 minutes after I showed up in that scene. Talk about rage inducing...

This is their fruits. This is how they treat their own. We have two towers that prove how they treat those not of their own. I don't know how Israel puts up with it.

105 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:59:16pm

re: #64 Racer X

We should never mock anyone.

Does "anyone" include Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin, because if it does then I'm going to have to take a pass.

/

106 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:59:32pm

re: #97 LudwigVanQuixote

I actually think that the Brits do satire rather well too.

I'm feeling ya Brother..But I don't think Satire will in the long run bring Healing and peace with the Muslim world..
It's a sad state of affairs today Lud..

107 darthstar  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:59:46pm

re: #67 Obdicut

How do you 'take on Islam'?

Easy...you just have to be animated about it.

108 Racer X  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 2:59:58pm

What would Archie Bunker do?

109 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:00:18pm

re: #102 Spare O'Lake

The MSM is too chickenshit to call bull shit on AGW deniers, and pretends that there's two sides to the creationist debate, too.

They are uniquely spineless.

110 Kragar  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:00:21pm

re: #108 Racer X

What would Archie Bunker do?

Been a complete asshole.

111 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:00:55pm

re: #86 Oh no...Sand People!

I would. I have a sweater featuring a Image: stoningDM_468x406.jpg lady buried halfway to her waste in preparation for a stoning. Great at breaking the ice at parties. I am stronger than their war of fear. This 'stoning' still takes place.

If I'm remembering correctly, that is just a still from a movie.

Even if I'm not sure if Muslims in the ME still do stonings, they sure as hell do hangings from cranes.

112 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:01:14pm

re: #91 Locker

I really, really wished I hadn't looked at that picture. That picture would look a whole lot different 3 minutes after I showed up in that scene. Talk about rage inducing...

When all else fails force must speak to force.

113 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:01:34pm

re: #95 Shiplord Kirel

One possible benefit if Chomsky goes tea party in a big way: Palin's garbled syntax would no doubt improve.

114 Locker  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:01:38pm

re: #104 Oh no...Sand People!

This is their fruits. This is how they treat their own. We have two towers that prove how they treat those not of their own. I don't know how Israel puts up with it.

I hear you man but it's hard for me to use such a broad brush. When I looked at that picture I didn't really think all Muslims were like that, I just wanted to take action against he specific individuals perpetrating the horrible act. Now that may include a chain of command up to this or that whackjob but I have to remind myself that it's the behavior that I hate... same as I hate children being denied access to a doctor because their parents are faith healing disciples.

115 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:01:48pm

re: #110 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Been a complete asshole.

Hahahaha so true. He was a parody of ourselves. A mirror of sorts. And holy shit was it ugly.

116 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:02:42pm

re: #95 Shiplord Kirel

Sheesh! The convergence is complete.

Liberal icon catches up: Racist teabagger Noam Chomsky slams Obama, defends Tea Party, Palin

Besides providing additional confirmation that Chomsky is a crank bomb-thrower*, this confirms our worst fears about the tea party movement.

*Only figuratively. I think.

Chomsky is a liberal icon? Not nitpicking you but the writer of the piece. Honestly, I've never had much use for Chomsky. I hated that he minimized the evils of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and there's something honestly annoying about a man who rants about the evils of capitalism yet profits immensely from it through is books.

117 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:03:27pm

What would be nice is if some Muslim American group called out Comedy Central for this and were in favor of free speech.

"We find any depictions of Muhammed offensive, and regret that South Park chose to include them. However, we are more offended by the fact that Comedy Central thinks so little of American Muslims that we'd actually violently react to something so trivial as a cartoon cable TV show. Just show the clip, we promise with sugar on top not to kill anybody.

Hugs and Kisses,

-Concerned Group of Muslim Americans"

118 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:03:44pm

re: #106 HoosierHoops

I'm feeling ya Brother..But I don't think Satire will in the long run bring Healing and peace with the Muslim world..
It's a sad state of affairs today Lud..

Historically, no religion ever was reformed as the result of healing and peace. Judaism as we recognize it toady was the result of the Babylonian exile, and Christianity had t go through the Reformation and the 30 years war before it began to mellow out.

I feel you, but history tells us that the world doesn't work the way we both wish it did. It is a sad state of affairs.

119 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:03:47pm

re: #95 Shiplord Kirel

Sheesh! The convergence is complete.

Liberal icon catches up: Racist teabagger Noam Chomsky slams Obama, defends Tea Party, Palin

Besides providing additional confirmation that Chomsky is a crank bomb-thrower*, this confirms our worst fears about the tea party movement.

*Only figuratively. I think.

Human sacrifice... dogs and cats living together.... MASS HYSTERIA!

120 Locker  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:03:58pm

re: #112 Spare O'Lake

When all else fails force must speak to force.

On this we agree. Not that I don't advocate peace however... after punching a guy in a grocery store for hitting his girlfriend I can't imagine what I'd be moved to do if faced with the scene in that picture.

121 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:03:59pm

re: #111 Dante41

If I'm remembering correctly, that is just a still from a movie.

Even if I'm not sure if Muslims in the ME still do stonings, they sure as hell do hangings from cranes.

They still stone...and behead...and carbomb...and festival of Ashura...and female genital mutilate...and keep slaves...

Sad I could go on...

122 elektramourns  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:04:05pm

I hate to see a bad group of people put the cap on our Bill of Rights. But you cannot scream FIRE in a theater and this is perhaps the functional equivalent of that. Perhaps the cartoon group should have approached this issue in a more subliminal way or more symbolic fashion. It may be that religion is off limits..I don,t think it should be but these are unusual times. Is Mohammed the equivalent of Jesus?

123 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:04:51pm

Chomsky did some amazing work deconstructing the methods with which the media is used as a mass manipulation tool, and he was frankly dead on about it.

I just wish he weren't such a crackpot, because the man has contributed much to our understanding of the nature of language and propaganda. He's gone nutty with his own anger, and it saddens me. He wasn't always like this.

124 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:04:56pm

The site where the threat appears won't load for me, but a cache of it does, with broken formatting, I think. Their article just below the threatening one is titled, "Evolution - Fact or Fiction?" A sample:


A tornado ripping through the jungle could not form a Boeing 747. Then how can an explosion such as the big bang cause the effect of such a perfectly formed Universe?
125 SteveB4  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:05:00pm

re: #117 eastsider

What would be nice is if some Muslim American group called out Comedy Central for this and were in favor of free speech.

"We find any depictions of Muhammed offensive, and regret that South Park chose to include them. However, we are more offended by the fact that Comedy Central thinks so little of American Muslims that we'd actually violently react to something so trivial as a cartoon cable TV show. Just show the clip, we promise with sugar on top not to kill anybody.

Hugs and Kisses,

-Concerned Group of Muslim Americans"

I won't hold my breath.

126 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:05:17pm

re: #111 Dante41

Google search results on Stoning.

127 Ming  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:05:50pm

As Charles points out, it's understandable that a corporation would back down in the face of these death threats. I certainly wouldn't blame Comedy Central. I am concerned that the police are not jumping all over the Muslims who made the threats. I am concerned that this is apparently some kind of legal gray area, and may or may not actually legally constitute a threat. My point is that if we as a society were more serious about fighting this kind of intimidation, it would very likely deter the intimidation itself. And any intimidators who are not deterred would have to fight, and would presumably lose. I know people, including the Muslims who made the threats, should have freedom of speech. But I don't think freedom of speech should include the kind of statements, and images on that web site, that have been directed against the creators of South Park. No, corporations and individuals should not be expected to fight this. But the government, i.e. law enforcement, and out legal system, should be expected to protect us from this. Perhaps we need to change some of the laws that pertain to all this.

128 elektramourns  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:06:09pm

re: #108 Racer X

he would join the Tea Party and scream like heck about it

129 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:06:10pm

re: #122 elektramourns

I hate to see a bad group of people put the cap on our Bill of Rights. But you cannot scream FIRE in a theater and this is perhaps the functional equivalent of that. Perhaps the cartoon group should have approached this issue in a more subliminal way or more symbolic fashion. It may be that religion is off limits..I don,t think it should be but these are unusual times. Is Mohammed the equivalent of Jesus?

I think I disagree with everything you just typed.

130 Locker  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:06:13pm

re: #123 Fozzie Bear

Chomsky did some amazing work deconstructing the methods with which the media is used as a mass manipulation tool, and he was frankly dead on about it.

I just wish he weren't such a crackpot, because the man has contributed much to our understanding of the nature of language and propaganda. He's gone nutty with his own anger, and it saddens me. He wasn't always like this.

I liked his Miseducation book... that's all I have to say about that.

131 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:06:35pm

re: #15 eastsider

"Either all of its okay, or none of it is"

-South Park

South Park has been allowed to show some pretty ridiculous things, including Jesus Christ defecating on an American flag.

And the point of that joke was lost on almost everyone, it seems. It aired right about the time of the first Mohammed cartoon controversy. In the context of the episode, it was Osama (maybe al Zawahiri, can't recall at the moment) making his own cartoon attempting to enrage American Christians and throw them into chaos and turmoil as they freaked out over the desecration of sacred imagery. The point was to illustrate the major difference between us and them, in that we don't take to the street en masse, start riots, and threaten to kill people over dumb-ass cartoons.

132 bosforus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:07:27pm

re: #53 Fozzie Bear

WE either do, or don't believe, as a nation, in total freedom of expression.

I realize this is not your main point and I agree with your attitude but freedom of expression has not been lost in this situation. Comedy Central decided not to use it.

133 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:08:07pm

re: #122 elektramourns

This is not shouting FIRE in a theater. This is shouting "Yahweh likes porn!" in a theater.

134 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:08:23pm

re: #131 negativ

And the point of that joke was lost on almost everyone, it seems. It aired right about the time of the first Mohammed cartoon controversy. In the context of the episode, it was Osama (maybe al Zawahiri, can't recall at the moment) making his own cartoon attempting to enrage American Christians and throw them into chaos and turmoil as they freaked out over the desecration of sacred imagery. The point was to illustrate the major difference between us and them, in that we don't take to the street en masse, start riots, and threaten to kill people over dumb-ass cartoons.

+1

135 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:08:24pm

re: #116 HappyWarrior

Chomsky is a liberal icon? Not nitpicking you but the writer of the piece. Honestly, I've never had much use for Chomsky. I hated that he minimized the evils of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and there's something honestly annoying about a man who rants about the evils of capitalism yet profits immensely from it through is books.

Chomsky is more of a professional contrarian than a liberal in any coherent sense, the academic counterpart of uber-moonbat Ramsey Clark.
The only condition for their support is that one is fighting America, or at least actively hating it. If I were malicious (which I am at times), I might suggest that this could tell us something about the tea parties and their potential future.

136 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:08:40pm

re: #121 Oh no...Sand People!

They still stone...and behead...and carbomb...and festival of Ashura...and female genital mutilate...and keep slaves...

Sad I could go on...

The beheadings and the carbombings, damn right they do. The stonings, very probable but not "accepted". The FGM and the slave keeping? Those aren't problems unique to Islam. They are problems related to serious traditionalism and criminal bastards respectively.

re: #126 Bubblehead II

Google search results on Stoning.

Make no mistake, I'm not trying to say "Hey! Stonings aren't so bad!". Just that they have moved into "modern" ways of lynching someone.

137 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:09:10pm

re: #130 Locker

I liked his Miseducation book... that's all I have to say about that.

It just blows my mind that somebody so incredibly intelligent could be at the same time so fucking stupid as to jump into bed with people who are frankly morons.

I guess I'll just have to divorce in my mind my respect for his work in linguistics and propaganda studies from the recent actions of the man himself. Noam, you were a genius, but now you are an asshole.

138 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:09:49pm

re: #137 Fozzie Bear

He's still a genius and an asshole. He's the linguistics/computer science/information theory version of Nicolai Tesla.

139 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:09:51pm

re: #136 Dante41

What? Are you saying that all crimes and atrocities that happen in places with muslims can't be tied directly to islam?!

140 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:09:53pm

re: #122 elektramourns

I hate to see a bad group of people put the cap on our Bill of Rights. But you cannot scream FIRE in a theater and this is perhaps the functional equivalent of that. Perhaps the cartoon group should have approached this issue in a more subliminal way or more symbolic fashion. It may be that religion is off limits..I don,t think it should be but these are unusual times. Is Mohammed the equivalent of Jesus?

LMAO...was that supposed to make any sense beyond the trolling part about Jesus?

141 mich-again  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:09:58pm

re: #137 Fozzie Bear

Who said geniuses can't be assholes?

142 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:10:01pm

re: #132 bosforus

I realize this is not your main point and I agree with your attitude but freedom of expression has not been lost in this situation. Comedy Central decided not to use it.

I acknowledge that. I understand that Comedy Central isn't censoring anyone, in the strictest sense of the word, but it still pisses me off.

143 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:10:14pm

Yes, this has been the Islamist strategy for some time--making us choose between defending free speech and defending human life. And making sure we can't have both. It's unfortunate that they are such brilliant strategists.

144 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:10:14pm

re: #131 negativ

And speaking of dumbass cartoons, Rick Perry and Glenn Beck Live in Concert

Can we please have some friggin term limits now, TX legislature?

145 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:10:34pm

re: #141 mich-again

Its almost necessary really

146 elektramourns  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:10:58pm

Law school teachys the speech/action continuum, and if something like this triggers violence, it might not be considered protected speech despite the honest intentions of the actors

147 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:11:03pm

re: #143 Bob Levin

lol yeah its all a plot.

Please, this isn't supervilliany.

148 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:11:08pm

re: #133 Obdicut

With apologies to Ludwig, but the point of it that it had to be something that'd knot you up a bit.

Sorry, man, not trying to be offensive for the sake of it, but to make an important point.

149 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:11:17pm

re: #124 wrenchwench

Which could mean "today it's cartoons on TV, tomorrow it could be science in the classrooms that offend us."

150 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:11:17pm

re: #135 Shiplord Kirel

Chomsky is more of a professional contrarian than a liberal in any coherent sense, the academic counterpart of uber-moonbat Ramsey Clark.
The only condition for their support is that one is fighting America, or at least actively hating it. If I were malicious (which I am at times), I might suggest that this could tell us something about the tea parties and their potential future.

They do seem to actively hate America as it is, and will continue to be. They love America as it never was, except for in their own minds (and in textbooks approved for use in Texas apparently).

151 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:11:31pm

re: #141 mich-again

Who said geniuses can't be assholes?

He was something of a hero of mine in my teens. Now, at age 35, I don't recognize him anymore. *sadface*

152 elektramourns  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:11:37pm

re: #132 bosforus

correct

153 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:11:43pm

re: #139 windsagio

What? Are you saying that all crimes and atrocities that happen in places with muslims can't be tied directly to islam?!

Yawn.

154 eastsider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:11:51pm

re: #133 Obdicut

This is not shouting FIRE in a theater. This is shouting "Yahweh likes porn!" in a theater.

At which point LVQ would be offended and call you an asshole.

He would probably not show you a picture of a decapitated man and say that this is what happened to the last person who shouted that in a theatre. But that's because he's not a radical prone to violence.

/As a side note, if he did show you the picture, he would acknowledge that it was a threat, and not just "a show of evidence." But that's only because he's not a moron, and has nothing to do with being a radical.

155 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:12:10pm

re: #147 windsagio

Did I say plot, I said strategy.

156 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:12:23pm

re: #146 elektramourns

No, that's not actually how it works. You're talking about a situational event, and expanding it.

DO you honestly think this sort of satire should be restricted by law? Because otherwise, talking about the risk of violence is irrelevant.

157 Gus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:12:25pm

This sort of proves the point about the original episode.

Well, I guess Comedy Central will to wait another 1000 years before people get over these Bronze Age superstitions.

158 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:13:04pm

re: #155 Bob Levin

I think you're giving people too much credit by half.

159 Racer X  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:13:22pm

I gotta go.

Rock On, Lizards.

160 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:13:24pm

re: #147 windsagio

And I guess it depends on how you feel about both free speech and human life.

161 mich-again  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:13:39pm

Every day, radical muslims do more to denigrate their own religion than any cartoon ever could.

162 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:14:09pm

re: #117 eastsider

What would be nice is if some Muslim American group called out Comedy Central for this and were in favor of free speech.

"We find any depictions of Muhammed offensive, and regret that South Park chose to include them. However, we are more offended by the fact that Comedy Central thinks so little of American Muslims that we'd actually violently react to something so trivial as a cartoon cable TV show. Just show the clip, we promise with sugar on top not to kill anybody.

Hugs and Kisses,

-Concerned Group of Muslim Americans"

The silence of the lambs is deafening.

163 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:14:25pm

re: #158 windsagio

Okay, how much credit do want to give them? It's still a double-bind. Or if you play chess, a fork.

164 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:14:49pm

re: #157 Gus 802

Now that I think of it, there are some parallels to the original 'mohummed editorial cartoon' thing.

They're in their rights, and I'm really annoyed that the censorship makes it so I can't see the episode (I can only see it streaming), but they did essentially get the response they were hoping for.

165 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:15:40pm

re: #160 Bob Levin

Yow, okay. Yeah, if you're gonna get all demagogue on me, I think there's not much else to say.

166 Gus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:15:47pm

Meanwhile, down at the farm:

Dutch Arab group acquitted of hate speech
Associated Press
2010-04-22 08:34 PM

A Dutch court has acquitted an Arab cultural group of hate speech charges for publishing a cartoon questioning the reality of the Holocaust.

The Utrecht court found the publication by the Dutch arm of the Arab European League was intended to provoke debate, and fell within the boundaries of freedom of speech laws.

In a written ruling, the court said Thursday the image was insulting and offensive to Jews. But it said the AEL intended to spur a public discussion on why European media are willing to publish cartoons mocking Islam's prophet Muhammad while the Holocaust is taboo.

The AEL said that, despite publishing the cartoon, it accepts the reality of Nazi genocide against Jews during World War II.

Public prosecutors had demanded a fine.

167 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:16:08pm

re: #136 Dante41

"Make no mistake, I'm not trying to say "Hey! Stonings aren't so bad!". Just that they have moved into "modern" ways of lynching someone."

They are not lynching them. They are hanging them by order of the State.

"Lynching is extrajudicial punishment carried out by a mob, usually by hanging in order to intimidate, control, or otherwise manipulate a population of people, however large or small."

168 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:16:16pm

I think it's rather easy to pretend our enemies are stupid. And rather dangerous. They aren't dumb, and they understand us far better than we understand them. There is danger inherent in allowing that state of affairs to continue.

169 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:16:46pm

The thing that amazes me about the whole thing is that South Park has been much more harder on other groups than Muslims. It reminds me of the Family Guy-Palin controversy honestly. Where in that episode they were making fun of phony psychics more than they were Down Syndrome people. Just like in this episode they were making much more fun of people like Cruise than they were Muhammad.

170 EastSider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:16:58pm

re: #168 Fozzie Bear

I think it's rather easy to pretend our enemies are stupid. And rather dangerous. They aren't dumb, and they understand us far better than we understand them. There is danger inherent in allowing that state of affairs to continue.

Road trip to Lebanon. Who's with me?

171 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:17:21pm

re: #158 windsagio

I think you're giving people too much credit by half.

www.thereligionofpeace.com

Here, check this out. I know it will give you all kinds of butthurt but there is a consistent trend. This trend is most certainly not your friend.

And not only that, these stats only account for a very very small number of articles since papers have to fill up their pages with more than just death and carnage.

172 Gus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:17:24pm

re: #164 windsagio

Now that I think of it, there are some parallels to the original 'mohummed editorial cartoon' thing.

They're in their rights, and I'm really annoyed that the censorship makes it so I can't see the episode (I can only see it streaming), but they did essentially get the response they were hoping for.

It's self-censorship of course and due in large part upon self preservation and/or safety. It's more like being strong armed into censorship. "Show the cartoons and someone dies" or something like that.

173 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:17:36pm

re: #146 elektramourns

Law school teachys the speech/action continuum, and if something like this triggers violence, it might not be considered protected speech despite the honest intentions of the actors

Try going to a better law school then would be my advice, "incitement to violence" which is criminal is not the same thing as someone reacting violently in counter to what you said.

/they might also teach you how to use spell-check and avoid meaningless cliches like "speech/action continuum"

174 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:17:37pm

re: #170 EastSider

Road trip to Lebanon. Who's with me?

HAHAHAHA no its ok i'll stick to books for now.

175 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:18:10pm

re: #165 windsagio

Oh I am so sorry. I didn't know you didn't know the meaning of demagogue.

I guess that's why your responses are closer to graffiti than a fully developed thought.

176 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:18:17pm

re: #167 Bubblehead II

"Make no mistake, I'm not trying to say "Hey! Stonings aren't so bad!". Just that they have moved into "modern" ways of lynching someone."

They are not lynching them. They are hanging them by order of the State.

"Lynching is extrajudicial punishment carried out by a mob, usually by hanging in order to intimidate, control, or otherwise manipulate a population of people, however large or small."

A mob pulling someone out of their life and killing them is a lynching, no matter what authorization is given.

177 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:18:23pm

re: #171 Oh no...Sand People!

You know, I won't look at anything with the term 'religion of peace' in it. Its kinda become a buzzword for bigotry.

178 EastSider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:19:02pm

re: #174 Fozzie Bear

HAHAHAHA no its ok i'll stick to books for now.

Alright I'll bring you back some Hummus.

179 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:20:05pm

re: #177 windsagio

You know, I won't look at anything with the term 'religion of peace' in it. Its kinda become a buzzword for bigotry.

Weak. Don't worry, me and my friends will stand up for you.

180 mich-again  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:20:06pm

It would make a funnier episode if they made Cartman convert to radical Islam and go around South Park threatening everyone with violence.

181 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:20:10pm

re: #170 EastSider

Man I wish it was safe to go there. Damascus (used to be) one of the most beautiful cities in the world.

Also, Lebanese food rocks!

182 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:20:11pm

In fact, let me demonstrate some free speech right now.

I detest militant Islam. I detest it for the same sorts of reasons I detest Fundie Christians and certain types you find in Mea Sharim.

While I am a man of deep and sincere faith, I try very hard to never let my faith destroy my reason and I certainly never condone cruelty to others as a result of my faith. I never try to force my faith on others. I would never attack or harm someone merely because they saw G-d differently than I do.

However those types would.

Faith is a matter of conscience. It is a personal thing and another person's conscience has the same rights as mine. We are all trying our best to muddle through.

People who do not get that cross the all so important line of no longer respecting others at all - but of course they push it further and violently denigrate others.

NO sane or rational person can possibly condone the excesses of the brutal theocratic mind that confuses sadism with sanctity.

Real definitions still apply. A terrorist is a terrorist whether or not he kills for his vision of a racially pure America, like McVeigh, or his vision of boinking virgins in heaven, like the Shahid. Both of those sorts are evil. Both of those sorts would do you and me harm if they could. While we may not like the fight on our hands, we have no choice but to engage in it, because they will bring it to us.

Now let me specifically point this at Islam.

You can not claim, and no one can claim that Islam, as it is practiced in the majority of Muslim states is anything other than brutal, barbarous and dehumanizing. There is no excuse for their abysmal treatment of women. Their is no excuse for brutal public executions for homosexuality, theological questioning, and witchcraft.

Whether or not pedophilia was acceptable in its time and culture, Muhammed in his 40's married and had sex with a 9 year old. It is still pedophilia. Whether or not it was acceptable in its time or culture, Muhammed still massacered the Jews of Kahybar, brutally tortured and murdered a Jewish man for his gold and then raped his wife.
It is still aggravated murder, brigandage and rape.

When the various angry Muslim groups shout Kahybar! Kahybar, that is what they are referring to. This is not some unfortunate incident to them. This is something they are telling us they want to do again.

So yes, there is plenty to criticize.

183 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:20:43pm

re: #178 EastSider

Alright I'll bring you back some Hummus.

Deal. I do love middle eastern food. The town I live in has a HUGE Lebanese population proportionally speaking, and lots of great Lebanese food. I've grown quite fond of it.

184 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:20:54pm

re: #70 bosforus

Remember this? Not exactly Mo, but it's still good.
I Wanna Be Like Osama

[Video]

I want one of those pink burqas for Halloween.

185 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:21:12pm

re: #143 Bob Levin

Yes, this has been the Islamist strategy for some time--making us choose between defending free speech and defending human life. And making sure we can't have both. It's unfortunate that they are such brilliant strategists.


They don't look very smart on their website:

Counter Counter Terrorism #8 - Fomenting Disunity In The Counter Terrorism Movement
After having experimented briefly with creating division among the individual personalities in the counter terrorism movement, I have come to the conclusion that this is not a practical avenue to explore. However, I have noticed that there are many polarizing figures and ideas in the movement that can be exploited to create divisions.

My initial experiments pitted expert A against expert B, but this is not practical. However, by identifying areas of difference or strange theories we can exploit them and divide the movement in sha'a Allah.

Another thing I have learned is that you should not dialogue with these people unless you are going to feed them outright lies to mislead them. This is a permissible lie, because it is misleading the enemy. Simply put, they are better at analyzing us than we are at analyzing them. They do it full time, but we spend a large amount of our time learning other things and only spend a little time of CT officials.

I do not think the average person can dialogue with them enough to significantly gain their trust and mislead them without making a fool out of his or herself. Overtime we will likely grow in our capabilities to deal with and mislead counter terrorism officials, but as things stand this has not been one of our areas of focus. As far as I know, this is the first work in English dealing with this subject which goes to show how far behind we are. Our movement relies on a powerful message, so we often ignore our true potential in favor of doing what is easy.

]...]

186 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:22:56pm

re: #180 mich-again

It would make a funnier episode if they made Cartman convert to radical Islam and go around South Park threatening everyone with violence.

Haha that'd be hilarious. Can't imagine Cartman converting though since I imagine he loves pork as much as he does cheesy poofs and KFC.

187 EastSider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:22:56pm

re: #177 windsagio

You know, I won't look at anything with the term 'religion of peace' in it. Its kinda become a buzzword for bigotry.

How about, "religion of > 1 Billion predominantly peaceful people of varying ethnic and economic backgrounds of which a small fraction of people preach and act out violence in the name of their god all while trying to maintain a delicate balance of religion, nationalism, and governance in many places across the world"

Can that fit on a bumper sticker?

188 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:23:25pm

re: #187 EastSider

No, its also a terrible talking point.

You'll never get on Fox!

189 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:24:07pm

re: #148 Obdicut

With apologies to Ludwig, but the point of it that it had to be something that'd knot you up a bit.

Sorry, man, not trying to be offensive for the sake of it, but to make an important point.

I got your point as intended and it is literally correct as a valid analogy.

Spiritually though, you are a Tribe member. So, if there is any truth to Judaism, the injunction would hit you a little more severely. Just saying.

190 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:25:20pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the thing that's most offensive about this is that South Park has consistently insulted everyone, for a very long time.

Honestly, I thought the Danish cartoons were offensive. I did not like them, and I did not like how they came about, without giving any credence or tolerance to people willing to kill over such nonsense.

But South Park has never recognized any sacred (or scared) cows, and I have appreciated them for this, even as they have made me wince a lot.

I'm sorry Comedy Central decided to alter the program.

They'll continue to do so, as Charles said. A corporation that stood up to the threats and then was attacked would be sued by the families of those killed. They'd claim their loved ones were put at risk, although in a way, it would still be about the money, since they can't sue the Islamists responsible for the attacks. To get businesses to stand up, there would need to be some way to get money from the enemy.

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:25:35pm

re: #101 charles_martel

Well, that's the heart of the matter. the prohibition against the image of mohammad is a mulsim law for muslims. We are not obligated to follow muslim law, and the islamists are trying to make their law govern us. Also, the reason for the prohibition is that muslims won't be tempted to worship the image and indulge in idolatry. The spirit of the law is about muslim acts of worship, not arbitrary prohibitions.

I wholeheartedly support the Danish cartoons, because we need to vigorously defend freedom of speech. If we give it up, inch by inch, we will wake up one day with no freedom of speech at all. True freedom of speech includes the right to offend.

It also, and this is really all I am saying, includes the right to be polite about people's faith, no matter WHAT the fuckhead extremists are doing.

192 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:26:20pm

re: #111 Dante41

If I'm remembering correctly, that is just a still from a movie.

Even if I'm not sure if Muslims in the ME still do stonings, they sure as hell do hangings from cranes.

They do. Stonings, I mean. Also hangings.

193 freetoken  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:26:55pm

Meanwhile:

‘No-fly’ Nigerian allegedly on U.S.-bound jet


Pilot reportedly was informed about the passenger while over the Atlantic

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - U.S. federal agents detained a passenger on a New York-bound jet from West Africa, telling passengers the man was on a 'no-fly' list and ineligible for international travel for undisclosed security reasons.
[...]

Passenger Nbaye Beye said the man, who appeared to be in his late 20s, appeared nervous when approached by a U.S. agent but got off the plane quietly.

194 EastSider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:26:57pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

I got your point as intended and it is literally correct as a valid analogy.

Spiritually though, you are a Tribe member. So, if there is any truth to Judaism, the injunction would hit you a little more severely. Just saying.

I think you've hit on it there. We just need to teach religious fundamentals of all stripes that their specific god will mete out eternal punishment of varying hellfires and virgin embargoes if and only if the offender is given a full life to try and rectify him/herself and dies of natural causes.

195 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:27:52pm

Their website bears some resemblance to a wingnut blog:

The Obama administration is currently floating around the idea of implementing a value added tax (VAT). This is a system of taxation in which a certain amount of tax is applied to a product at each stage it goes through in which its value increases. In the situation of a car being produced you would have a tax on all of the raw material, then on all of the parts as they are assembled, then on the car itself. None of this shows up on one’s receipt, but one will find it much harder to purchase anything and everything under this system.

In a nation that is moving ever closer to socialism, this would be essentially a tipping point that would make it impossible to counteract without a physical revolution. Just look at the UK where the people who are considered right wing extremists all essentially agree that socialized medicine is a necessity. If this passes and the Obama agenda succeeds then the American right wing will likely be forced into submission on many issues of socialism.

Socialism, by its nature, creates a culture of dependency which is nearly impossible to defeat unless some cataclysmic event occurs. There is a difference between communism and a welfare state in that the people can be forced to work in a communist system. In a welfare state you slowly turn large portions of formerly productive people into parasites who live off of the government and the wealthy.

In addition to destroying America’s productive industrial attitude, this tax will likely destroy the economy as well.

[...]

Furthermore, taxes should not be used to prop up strange projects and other things. They should only be used to help those who are in need and who do not have the capability of helping themselves. Also, it should be used for the military, because this fulfills a basic need of the society that is hard to fulfill through other means.

In other matters the government should be forced to obtain money through moral means such as running its own businesses which have to compete and are not propped up by taxes.

Taxing someone is like eating from a blueberry patch. Nobody minds it if you eat a handful of the blueberries, but if you eat 1/3 or 1/2 then that is stealing.

Furthermore, governments should certainly not engage in gambling and taking on interest-based debt. This forces them to oppress their people when they are in danger of going bankrupt. A business in the same situation of the American government would not be allowed to steal from the people in order to prop it up for a few more years while it goes bankrupt. It is no less of an injustice when a socialist regime does this to its people to prop up its culture of dependency.

The above is based on the Islamic economic system which relies on free trade principals, low taxes, and a ban on gambling and usury. Anything which is good is from Allah, and anything which is falsehood is from myself and Shaytaan.

Except for the part about government should run businesses, of course.

196 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:28:24pm

re: #195 wrenchwench

well that's.... odd.

197 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:28:25pm

That little CNN weasel Toobin was on there last night pointing out how the Islamofascist South Park threats did not constitute a crime. Apparently, law enforcement agrees with him - no one has been charged.
Silence from the authorities.
Silence from the moderate Imams.
Silence from MSM.

SILENCE!

198 Gus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:28:53pm

re: #195 wrenchwench

Which website is that?

199 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:29:06pm

re: #197 Spare O'Lake

What would you have them do? (asking seriously)

200 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:29:21pm

re: #182 LudwigVanQuixote

Ludwig, I'm fine with everything other than the historical stuff. There's plenty of nasty, terrible stuff going down-- with God's sanction-- in the Torah as well.

You're completely right to call out the sanction for savage treatment of women, minorities, etc. in modern Islamic states. But when you start arguing over historical basis for the religion, it gets very shaky, very quickly. It weakens the overall argument.

Christianity managed to become a hyperviolent religion for a long period of time, the pacifism and gentleness of Christ nonwithstanding. Buddhists have fought huge, bloody wars over Buddhism; Hindus likewise. There is little merit in the argument that Islam in the abstract is somehow a fundamentally flawed religion when compare to the other religions.

Again: You're completely right to rail on modern Islamic states for their incredible, daily human-rights violations.

201 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:29:25pm

re: #185 wrenchwench

I hear you, but I personally couldn't get Comedy Central to alter their shows, so, credit where credit is due. Anyone know what's going on with the European cartoonists? I personally couldn't make them run for cover either.
And we aren't even counting all of the small acts of self-censorship that have occurred over the last few years.

202 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:29:27pm

re: #199 windsagio

The authorities that is, or even the MSM.

203 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:29:28pm

re: #198 Gus 802

Which website is that?

Here's the cache.

204 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:30:02pm

re: #117 eastsider

What would be nice is if some Muslim American group called out Comedy Central for this and were in favor of free speech.

"We find any depictions of Muhammed offensive, and regret that South Park chose to include them. However, we are more offended by the fact that Comedy Central thinks so little of American Muslims that we'd actually violently react to something so trivial as a cartoon cable TV show. Just show the clip, we promise with sugar on top not to kill anybody.

Hugs and Kisses,

-Concerned Group of Muslim Americans"

Would also be nice if they called out the fruitcakes making the threats.

205 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:30:16pm

re: #197 Spare O'Lake

That little CNN weasel Toobin was on there last night pointing out how the Islamofascist South Park threats did not constitute a crime. Apparently, law enforcement agrees with him - no one has been charged.
Silence from the authorities.
Silence from the moderate Imams.
Silence from MSM.

SILENCE!

You can't arrest somebody for saying someone might do something stupid. They didn't make a direct threat. You can't arrest them. Period.

206 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:30:18pm

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

They do. Stonings, I mean. Also hangings.


Yeah. The one image I have in my mind is two Iranian men being strung up with wire rope on a crane for being gay. It honestly looks like they were just pulled off the street in the middle of going about their daily life.

As Ahamadinnerplate said, there are no homosexuals in Iran. They've killed them off.

207 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:30:19pm

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

They do. Stonings, I mean. Also hangings.

And lots of decapitations and dismemberments as well as floggings.

Those societies are barbarian.

208 lostlakehiker  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:31:12pm

re: #182 LudwigVanQuixote

In fact, let me demonstrate some free speech right now.

I detest militant Islam. I detest it for the same sorts of reasons I detest Fundie Christians and certain types you find in Mea Sharim.

While I am a man of deep and sincere faith, I try very hard to never let my faith destroy my reason and I certainly never condone cruelty to others as a result of my faith. I never try to force my faith on others. I would never attack or harm someone merely because they saw G-d differently than I do.

However those types would.

Faith is a matter of conscience. It is a personal thing and another person's conscience has the same rights as mine. We are all trying our best to muddle through.

People who do not get that cross the all so important line of no longer respecting others at all - but of course they push it further and violently denigrate others.

NO sane or rational person can possibly condone the excesses of the brutal theocratic mind that confuses sadism with sanctity.

Real definitions still apply. A terrorist is a terrorist whether or not he kills for his vision of a racially pure America, like McVeigh, or his vision of boinking virgins in heaven, like the Shahid. Both of those sorts are evil. Both of those sorts would do you and me harm if they could. While we may not like the fight on our hands, we have no choice but to engage in it, because they will bring it to us.

Now let me specifically point this at Islam.

You can not claim, and no one can claim that Islam, as it is practiced in the majority of Muslim states is anything other than brutal, barbarous and dehumanizing. There is no excuse for their abysmal treatment of women. Their is no excuse for brutal public executions for homosexuality, theological questioning, and witchcraft.

Whether or not pedophilia was acceptable in its time and culture, Muhammed in his 40's married and had sex with a 9 year old. It is still pedophilia. Whether or not it was acceptable in its time or culture, Muhammed still massacered the Jews of Kahybar, brutally tortured and murdered a Jewish man for his gold and then raped his wife.
It is still aggravated murder, brigandage and rape.

When the various angry Muslim groups shout Kahybar! Kahybar, that is what they are referring to. This is not some unfortunate incident to them. This is something they are telling us they want to do again.

So yes, there is plenty to criticize.

Not to call you a coward, but caution tells me that it would be taking a risk to endorse this manifesto and sign my real-world John Hancock to it. I could lose my life or my fortune, (e.g. job), and I guess I rationalize that my sacred honor is more or less intact if I back off from such a signature.

I am ashamed, but there it is.

209 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:31:16pm

re: #189 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm an atheist, though, so my only concern in saying such things is bringing pain to fine people like you. Which is why I wouldn't do it outside the context of a demonstration of free speech.

But yes, I still feel very guilty every year around Yom Kippur, despite parents who converted to Catholicism and Jewish grandparents who were atheists. Make of that what you will.

210 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:31:33pm

re: #197 Spare O'Lake

No this is Silence.


///

211 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:31:33pm

re: #200 Obdicut

I so 100% agree. Focus on what's happening right now, not what may or may not have happened 1400 years ago.

212 Gus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:31:41pm

re: #203 wrenchwench

Here's the cache.

OK, thanks.

Here's the archive directory.

213 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:32:06pm

re: #171 Oh no...Sand People!

www.thereligionofpeace.com

Here, check this out. I know it will give you all kinds of butthurt but there is a consistent trend. This trend is most certainly not your friend.

And not only that, these stats only account for a very very small number of articles since papers have to fill up their pages with more than just death and carnage.

blah blah blah

blah blah blah

blah blah blah

blah blah blah

214 freetoken  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:32:10pm

Also in play:

Franklin Graham Disinvited From Army Prayer Day

Evangelist Franklin Graham's invitation to speak at a Pentagon prayer service has been rescinded because his comments about Islam were inappropriate, the Army said Thursday.

Graham, the son famed evangelist Billy Graham, in 2001 described Islam as evil. More recently, he has said he finds Islam offensive and wants Muslims to know that Jesus Christ died for their sins.

Was the Army right or wrong in their action here?

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:32:27pm

re: #122 elektramourns

I hate to see a bad group of people put the cap on our Bill of Rights. But you cannot scream FIRE in a theater and this is perhaps the functional equivalent of that. Perhaps the cartoon group should have approached this issue in a more subliminal way or more symbolic fashion. It may be that religion is off limits..I don,t think it should be but these are unusual times. Is Mohammed the equivalent of Jesus?

South Park doesn't DO subtle.

216 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:33:17pm

Hey! I forgot to tell you guys what happened this morning...I was woke up at 5:30am with a helicopter flying over the house..Over and over..It was like WTF is going on? Turned on the local news and there was an armed robbery at a CVS store at 5am and the dude stole a bunch of drugs..Hopped out his car and was on foot being chased by the police by my house...Nothing ever happens exciting out in the corn fields..Boring...
So with a helicopter flying around for an hour overhead I grab my 9mm PPK 007 gun just in case...The gun is wicked cook..It has never been fired..I don't own a bullet for it..Which current makes me the dumbest person in Indiana..
But it looks bad...OK I promise to buy some ammo for it this weekend..
But it was pretty exciting way to start the day...Do you think it's weird to take a shower with a baseball bat in the bathroom?
So my buddy calls me up and told me they found the guy..Tazed him on a live local news feed...
Cool!

217 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:33:31pm

re: #199 windsagio

What would you have them do? (asking seriously)

Seriously? I can't answer that question. Me honest answer (given the realities of the law) relies on extra-judicial violence.

218 darthstar  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:33:36pm

Good for the Pentagon.

Screenshot

Assholes like Franklin Graham need to be kept from things like the Pentagon's NDP.

219 EastSider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:33:40pm

re: #197 Spare O'Lake

That little CNN weasel Toobin was on there last night pointing out how the Islamofascist South Park threats did not constitute a crime. Apparently, law enforcement agrees with him - no one has been charged.
Silence from the authorities.
Silence from the moderate Imams.
Silence from MSM.

SILENCE!

The young American Muslims I know are against threats and violence.

and there are a few hundred people in some facebook groups too, fwiw.
[Link: www.facebook.com...]
[Link: www.facebook.com...]

220 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:33:56pm

re: #214 freetoken

Also in play:

Franklin Graham Disinvited From Army Prayer Day

Was the Army right or wrong in their action here?

Absolutely 100% correct, in my opinion. We cannot counter religious extremism with religious extremism. It just won't work.

221 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:34:02pm

re: #214 freetoken

Totally right, assuming Muslim soldiers are in the audience. I wouldn't want an Imam who described Judaism in the same vein to speak at it either.

222 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:35:08pm

re: #200 Obdicut


Again: You're completely right to rail on modern Islamic states for their incredible, daily human-rights violations.

Ding! Ding!

223 EastSider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:35:13pm

re: #216 HoosierHoops

Hey! I forgot to tell you guys what happened this morning...I was woke up at 5:30am with a helicopter flying over the house..Over and over..It was like WTF is going on? Turned on the local news and there was an armed robbery at a CVS store at 5am and the dude stole a bunch of drugs..Hopped out his car and was on foot being chased by the police by my house...Nothing ever happens exciting out in the corn fields..Boring...
So with a helicopter flying around for an hour overhead I grab my 9mm PPK 007 gun just in case...The gun is wicked cook..It has never been fired..I don't own a bullet for it..Which current makes me the dumbest person in Indiana..
But it looks bad...OK I promise to buy some ammo for it this weekend..
But it was pretty exciting way to start the day...Do you think it's weird to take a shower with a baseball bat in the bathroom?
So my buddy calls me up and told me they found the guy..Tazed him on a live local news feed...
Cool!

Cool story bro?

224 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:35:15pm

re: #221 Obdicut

Totally right, assuming Muslim soldiers are in the audience. I wouldn't want an Imam who described Judaism in the same vein to speak at it either.

It doesn't matter, imho, if there are Muslims in the audience. Not one bit. When we allow fundamentalists to take over the military, we are fucked, imo.

225 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:35:37pm

re: #217 Dark_Falcon

Man I don't know how to anser that, I'm presuming you aren't really advocating violence >>

226 Kefirah  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:35:39pm

re: #146 elektramourns

now, that's just nonsense. the bible has triggered all sorts of violence, and g-d has not been held accountable in a court of law. i looked at picasso's "guernica" the other day, and boy - did that modern art drive me to madness!

that is a slippery slope down which our courts will not travel, and with good reason. if comedy central is censoring to protect their own, then that's their look.out. on the one hand - good for a corporation to take its employees lives seriously. on the other - caving to threats from islamic organizations begets more threats by islamic organizations, because they see that it works.

all in all, a gordian knot of a situation.

227 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:35:58pm

re: #207 LudwigVanQuixote

And lots of decapitations and dismemberments as well as floggings.

Those societies are barbarian.

Quite Concur. And I'd add that those who bash Israel and laud the Arabs should remember what kind of society Israel is and how much better it is than the barbarism that sadly prevails in much of the Arab world.

228 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:36:07pm

re: #221 Obdicut

Totally right, assuming Muslim soldiers are in the audience. I wouldn't want an Imam who described Judaism in the same vein to speak at it either.

Or to complete the trifecta, a Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi saying Christ is in Hell. When you have a military filled with almost every religion on the planet working in (mostly) unison, you can't let someone as divisive as him go and fark it all up.

229 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:36:21pm

re: #224 Fozzie Bear

I phrased that really badly, you're right. Their presence doesn't matter, except to make it even more offensive to invite him.

230 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:36:35pm

re: #180 mich-again

It would make a funnier episode if they made Cartman convert to radical Islam and go around South Park threatening everyone with violence.

That would be a good episode.

231 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:36:38pm

re: #225 windsagio

Man I don't know how to anser that, I'm presuming you aren't really advocating violence >>

Do you think we can negotiate with Iran?

232 Gus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:36:48pm

re: #171 Oh no...Sand People!

www.thereligionofpeace.com

Here, check this out. I know it will give you all kinds of butthurt but there is a consistent trend. This trend is most certainly not your friend.

And not only that, these stats only account for a very very small number of articles since papers have to fill up their pages with more than just death and carnage.

You might want to go here and scroll down to April 2009.

Not exactly an LGF friendly site - amongst other things. Not at all.

233 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:36:51pm

re: #219 EastSider

The young American Muslims I know are against threats and violence.

and there are a few hundred people in some facebook groups too, fwiw.
[Link: www.facebook.com...]
[Link: www.facebook.com...]

Thanks for posting that.

234 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:36:57pm

re: #223 EastSider

Cool story bro?

I report..You decide

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:37:08pm

re: #181 windsagio

Man I wish it was safe to go there. Damascus (used to be) one of the most beautiful cities in the world.

Also, Lebanese food rocks!

I wish someone could do a whole Jewish history tour of the Middle East. Be surprised if it's doable in my lifetime.

236 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:37:12pm

re: #231 Oh no...Sand People!

Is that relevant at freaking ALL?

237 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:37:36pm

re: #225 windsagio

Man I don't know how to anser that, I'm presuming you aren't really advocating violence >>

That's why I'm not saying more. Sometimes I don't have an effective non-violent solution to a problem, so I simply don't offer one. I do not advocate violence here, as I value my account too much.

238 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:37:48pm

re: #221 Obdicut

Totally right, assuming Muslim soldiers are in the audience. I wouldn't want an Imam who described Judaism in the same vein to speak at it either.

Or a preacher who said that JC was the only way.

239 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:38:07pm

re: #232 Gus 802


Whoa! Haven't been there in a while. He can delete the post. But the stats are stats.

240 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:38:08pm

re: #232 Gus 802

You might want to go here and scroll down to April 2009.

Not exactly an LGF friendly site - amongst other things. Not at all.

hahaha color me shocked

241 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:38:13pm

re: #235 SanFranciscoZionist

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Helpful I know. The tour they did would have been freakin' amazing.

242 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:38:19pm

Here's the Ayaan Hirsi Ali interview:

243 Gus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:38:49pm

re: #240 WindUpBird

hahaha color me shocked

Did you find it? I recalled hearing about those buttholes last year.

244 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:38:55pm

re: #236 windsagio

Is that relevant at freaking ALL?

Yes.

245 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:39:07pm

re: #199 windsagio

What would you have them do? (asking seriously)

re: #205 Fozzie Bear

1. Police should charge them with threatening and intimidation. Let a jury decide.
2. Let the moderate Muslim leaders demand that the uncensored version be played and that the perpetrators of the threats be charged with crimes and cast out of the mainstream of the religion.

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:39:21pm

re: #200 Obdicut

There is little merit in the argument that Islam in the abstract is somehow a fundamentally flawed religion when compare to the other religions.

Again: You're completely right to rail on modern Islamic states for their incredible, daily human-rights violations.

This is really all I'm ever sayin' around here.

247 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:39:41pm

re: #228 Dante41

I've got to nitpick here and then I have to go. First, I see your point, which is an extension of other reasonable points--

but we don't really have a concept of a Dante-like Hell, and we're not that worked up about Jesus.

My point is so nit-picky that you might as well ignore it.

248 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:39:50pm

re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist

You'd think it'd be enough, too.

249 freetoken  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:39:53pm

In other news, over on HotWingNuts Ed Morrisey is in full anti-IPCC anti-AGW-science mode again: Add another exposed doomsday mistake to IPCC’s failures.

The guy makes me look like a prophet:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

The anti-science crowd is sooo predictable.

250 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:40:17pm

re: #200 Obdicut

Ludwig, I'm fine with everything other than the historical stuff. There's plenty of nasty, terrible stuff going down-- with God's sanction-- in the Torah as well.

Don't you dare go there. Even if there was a legitimate parallel to be made. Two wrongs do not make a right. But you do not have a comparison at all. There has not been a call to slay Midianites for over three thousand years, and the call was issued in such a way that it could never be repeated and would not and could not apply ever again. The same is true of every other call to arms in the Torah that you might question - and so would I as well, though Amalek came to make sense to me later on.

Modern Islam on the other hand still has plenty of other adherents who are all for putting people of other faiths to the sword.

There is NO comparison.

You're completely right to call out the sanction for savage treatment of women, minorities, etc. in modern Islamic states. But when you start arguing over historical basis for the religion, it gets very shaky, very quickly. It weakens the overall argument.

If I were doing that, you would have a point. However, I am not.

This is not the historical basis of the religion. This is something from the Haditha, that large numbers of Muslims see as the acts of a perfect man, and they want to emulate him today, here and now.

Christianity managed to become a hyperviolent religion for a long period of time, the pacifism and gentleness of Christ nonwithstanding. Buddhists have fought huge, bloody wars over Buddhism; Hindus likewise.

You are completely missing my point. I was hardly trying to hide the flaws of other religious fanatics. However, as noted above, the existence of the crimes of one religious fanatic does not mitigate the severity of the crimes of another.

There is little merit in the argument that Islam in the abstract is somehow a fundamentally flawed religion when compare to the other religions.

Which is not something I either said or implied. You are a good guy and we agree most of the time, but this is a case where you are letting certain PC memes color your impression of what I said. To critique Islam does not mean I am blind to the crimes of other fanatics - you might notice I am rather harsh on fundies of all stripes- and it is not a blanket statement that implies all Muslims adhere to the views I am critiquing.

Again: You're completely right to rail on modern Islamic states for their incredible, daily human-rights violations.

Which they do as a result of their current religious views.

251 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:40:58pm

re: #206 Dante41

Yeah. The one image I have in my mind is two Iranian men being strung up with wire rope on a crane for being gay. It honestly looks like they were just pulled off the street in the middle of going about their daily life.

As Ahamadinnerplate said, there are no homosexuals in Iran. They've killed them off.

And yet, I stand in demonstrations, across the street from gay Americans denouncing Israel and Israel alone.

Hell of a world.

252 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:41:03pm

re: #229 Obdicut

I phrased that really badly, you're right. Their presence doesn't matter, except to make it even more offensive to invite him.

Understood. Not to harp on the point, but when I think of that kind of thing, I think of all the young impressionable minds in the audience. Our soldiers are, by and large, kids. They need to be taught to think, not 'believe'. The vast majority of them will re-enter mainstream American society after their service is completed, and we want them to be as rational as possible when they get back. War is bad enough for the psyche. We owe it to them not to throw crazy ideas into the mix.

Rant completed, not even particularly directed at you.

253 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:41:32pm

re: #250 LudwigVanQuixote

dude, I respectfully suggest drop it, this is a bad place to go.

254 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:41:59pm

re: #214 freetoken

Also in play:

Franklin Graham Disinvited From Army Prayer Day


Was the Army right or wrong in their action here?

I'd say they were correct.

255 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:42:04pm

re: #226 Kefirah

now, that's just nonsense. the bible has triggered all sorts of violence, and g-d has not been held accountable in a court of law. i looked at picasso's "guernica" the other day, and boy - did that modern art drive me to madness!

[snip]

Please clarify how you equate Picasso's Guernica to some of the violent passages in the Hebrew scripture? Guernica was painted in reaction to a horrible battle that ensued in a historical Spanish city. Guernica was not painted as a political statement either, it was a social statement as to the horror that the city and population went through.

Explain?

256 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:42:14pm

re: #219 EastSider

The young American Muslims I know are against threats and violence.

and there are a few hundred people in some facebook groups too, fwiw.
[Link: www.facebook.com...]
[Link: www.facebook.com...]

Sadly, the most recent anti-violence event referred to in your link was in Toronto, Canada in January, 2009!
Is that it?

257 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:42:30pm

re: #253 windsagio

dude, I respectfully suggest drop it, this is a bad place to go.

Yeah, someone might get offended.

258 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:42:45pm

re: #220 Fozzie Bear

Absolutely 100% correct, in my opinion. We cannot counter religious extremism with religious extremism. It just won't work.

Also, it increases the general amount of religious extremism.

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:43:08pm

re: #221 Obdicut

Totally right, assuming Muslim soldiers are in the audience. I wouldn't want an Imam who described Judaism in the same vein to speak at it either.

I don't care whether Muslims are in the audience or not. It ain't OK.

260 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:43:12pm

re: #258 SanFranciscoZionist

Also, it increases the general amount of religious extremism.

I'll have you know that my religious extremism is special and different!

261 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:43:37pm

Yer catching up SFZ!

(I dunno why I'm so obsessed with that)

262 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:44:20pm

re: #260 windsagio

I'll have you know that my religious extremism is special and different!

exactly

263 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:44:23pm

re: #247 Bob Levin

I've got to nitpick here and then I have to go. First, I see your point, which is an extension of other reasonable points--

but we don't really have a concept of a Dante-like Hell, and we're not that worked up about Jesus.

My point is so nit-picky that you might as well ignore it.

I know. Just completing the trifecta of a extremely fundamentalist preacher of one of the three Abrahamic Religions bashing the other.

264 freetoken  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:44:28pm

re: #254 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd say they were correct.

So the question is... why did they invite him in the first place? This controversy over Franklin Graham was well known - it's been played out in the media ever since he made that statement, given that he is the son of the most famous preacher of the 20th century.

It was a major f*ck-up by the Army.

265 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:45:42pm

re: #257 Oh no...Sand People!

Yeah, someone might get offended.

I know you aren't this dense. It isn't someone getting offended, it is someone getting pissed off and doing something.

266 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:45:43pm

Religion is a plague.

267 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:46:02pm

re: #266 Sigma_x

Speaking of religious extremism...

268 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:46:34pm

Help me out here: I got home last night to find that my DVR didn't record South Park. I shrugged my shoulders and waited for the repeat at midnight like they always do. Midnight came and it was the Catcher in the Rye episode again. So... they did air the new episode, only heavily censored, but then didn't re-air it later last night? Is that what happened?

269 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:46:35pm

At times like these I am glad to be an atheist. You can't offend me on the basis of faith. It's impossible. I have none.

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:47:09pm

re: #269 Fozzie Bear

At times like these I am glad to be an atheist. You can't offend me on the basis of faith. It's impossible. I have none.

I'm sure I can offend you on SOME basis.

271 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:47:15pm

re: #269 Fozzie Bear

lol lets not start that, statements like that give me a strong urge to argue, and its ollllld.

272 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:47:32pm

re: #264 freetoken

So the question is... why did they invite him in the first place? This controversy over Franklin Graham was well known - it's been played out in the media ever since he made that statement, given that he is the son of the most famous preacher of the 20th century.

It was a major f*ck-up by the Army.

Graham, the son of famed minister Billy Graham, was scheduled to speak May 6 at a National Day of Prayer event organized by a Colorado group chaired by Shirley Dobson, wife of Focus on the Family founder James Dobson. But in a statement released Thursday, Graham said the Army had changed its mind.

The Dobson's arranged the whole thing.

273 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:47:36pm

re: #270 SanFranciscoZionist

You could say that Atheism is a faith. They generally find that pretty offensive >>

274 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:47:40pm

re: #270 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sure I can offend you on SOME basis.

Hahaha yeah you probably could, but it wouldn't be on the basis of faith, anyway.

275 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:48:03pm

re: #273 windsagio

You could say that Atheism is a faith. They generally find that pretty offensive >>

Hey, i'm offended!!!

Oh wait....

crap.

276 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:48:07pm

re: #272 Stanley Sea

link

[Link: www.aolnews.com...]

277 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:48:18pm

re: #253 windsagio

dude, I respectfully suggest drop it, this is a bad place to go.

Respectfully, why is it a bad place to go?

Would you be afraid to say Tom Riddle as well?

If I am going to call sheet wearing, cross burning folks who consider themselves good Christians out for being backwards barbarians, I will certainly call out Islamic terrorists. If I am going to call out the fools in Mea Sharim who throw rocks at people for driving on Shabbos out, I am certainly going to call out Muslims who ululate to decapitation videos.

No where in that is it implied that all Christians are sheet wearing cross burners. However, some are.

No where in that is it implied that all Jews throw rocks at people who drive on Shabbos. However some are.

No where in that is it implied that all Muslims are brutal barbaric theocratic thugs who chop heads. However some are.

Not one of those listed subgroups gets a pass.

Why are you giving Islamic crazies a pass when you would not give one to a sheet wearing Christian or a stone throwing Jew?

278 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:48:19pm

re: #265 Dante41

I know you aren't this dense. It isn't someone getting offended, it is someone getting pissed off and doing something.

Are you serious? Someone getting pissed off and doing something?

The fear amongst you guys is laughable. Hell, they can bring the rain all they want. What's there to be afraid of? They push, you push back harder.

Now gotta start dinner. Later.

279 freetoken  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:48:23pm

re: #266 Sigma_x

Religion is a plague plaque.

Spelling... we all need a spell checker now and again...

280 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:48:23pm

re: #266 Sigma_x

I do not agree. Religious extremism is indeed a plague, but Christianity and Judaism are blessing to the world. I'm not sure if Islam is overall a force for good.

281 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:48:32pm

re: #243 Gus 802

Did you find it? I recalled hearing about those buttholes last year.

Here's a hilarious dismantling of that religionofpeace website. [Link: www.chasingevil.org...]

282 Donna Ballard  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:48:35pm

re: #53 Fozzie Bear

Political Correctness is all about backing off and not offending anyone, our wonderful // gals at N.O.W. started it and the rest of society grabbed the concept with both hands and ran with it! They have been shoving it in every man's, woman's and child's face for over 20 years now and I for one am glad the country is finally coming out of it's bubble-wrapped cocoon of political correctness and figuring out that what has been happening is wrong and starting to fight back.

The people who post on this blog are to be congratulated for being on the forefront of this new awareness of this social injustice that has been perpetrated on the openness of peoples minds and hearts!

283 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:48:39pm

re: #269 Fozzie Bear

At times like these I am glad to be an atheist. You can't offend me on the basis of faith. It's impossible. I have none.

"I'll pray for you to see the Light, Heathen."

Ugh, I feel dirty just typing that. It makes me sick to think that people actually use prayer as an insult.

284 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:48:49pm

Main Entry: 1plague
Pronunciation: ˈplāg
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English plage, from Late Latin plaga, from Latin, blow; akin to Latin plangere to strike — more at plaint
Date: 14th century
1 a : a disastrous evil or affliction : calamity b : a destructively numerous influx

I'll go with definitions 1-b and 3-a & b.

285 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:48:50pm

re: #251 SanFranciscoZionist

And yet, I stand in demonstrations, across the street from gay Americans denouncing Israel and Israel alone.

Hell of a world.

What is their fucking problem?
Jews have been on the front line of gay rights, while the Muslim establishment has been typically silent at best. And gays have more rights in Israel than they do in America, for crying out loud!
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

286 Gus  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:49:19pm

re: #281 WindUpBird

Here's a hilarious dismantling of that religionofpeace website. [Link: www.chasingevil.org...]

Thanks. I'll have a look...

287 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:49:21pm

re: #277 LudwigVanQuixote

You'll post what you want of course, but I think theres just too much negative emotional energy there.

Take it or leave it, as you will :p

288 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:49:23pm

Main Entry: 1plague
Pronunciation: ˈplāg
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English plage, from Late Latin plaga, from Latin, blow; akin to Latin plangere to strike — more at plaint
Date: 14th century
1 a : a disastrous evil or affliction : calamity b : a destructively numerous influx


Didn't post the whole thing before.

289 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:49:42pm

Or then.

Never mind. Nothing to see here.

Move along.

290 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:49:51pm

re: #278 Oh no...Sand People!

Are you serious? Someone getting pissed off and doing something?

The fear amongst you guys is laughable. Hell, they can bring the rain all they want. What's there to be afraid of? They push, you push back harder.

Now gotta start dinner. Later.

Not about that, somebody saying something here that can't take back. No need to get people pissed off if there isn't a reason for it.

291 keithgabryelski  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:49:57pm

My graven image of Muhammad:

:-/

Come and get me, assholes.

292 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:50:02pm

re: #281 WindUpBird

Freakin' brutal!

293 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:51:08pm

re: #214 freetoken

Also in play:

Franklin Graham Disinvited From Army Prayer Day

Was the Army right or wrong in their action here?

The army was right. Calling the whole religion and all the ways that all Muslims see it as evil is totally wrong.

Please note that I have been very careful to be quite specific about certain subsets of Muslims in my critiques of Islam NOT all Muslims or all possible Muslim views of Islam.

294 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:51:14pm

re: #282 Dragon_Lady

Are you seriously fucking comparing the women's rights movement to terrorism?

Wow, just... wow.

295 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:51:18pm

re: #292 windsagio

Freakin' brutal!

I especially love how all those statistics Sandpeople is so fond of on that site, how they're like...

NOT ACTUALLY TRUE

296 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:51:51pm

re: #281 WindUpBird

Here's a hilarious dismantling of that religionofpeace website. [Link: www.chasingevil.org...]

From the link:

We have previously listed some peripheral information about the TROP site, and shown its author using lies to try to manipulate gullible readers; this report will go into specific details of the deception and racism of the TROP site.

And it works.

297 keithgabryelski  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:51:59pm

re: #273 windsagio

You could say that Atheism is a faith. They generally find that pretty offensive >>

no, they don't find it offensive. they find it ignorant.

Calling atheism a faith is like calling not playing tennis a sport.

298 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:52:01pm

re: #295 WindUpBird

Well you know how it is. Racism (oops IINOAR, rite?) is all about confirmation bias.

299 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:52:14pm

re: #297 keithgabryelski

sorry I offended you :D

300 simoom  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:52:22pm

re: #41 simoom

Right, and still reairs uncensored. Though perhaps that's just because noone's noticed yet... :o

Actually, maybe I spoke to soon. I haven't seen the episode in a while, so I went to watch it at SouthParkStudios. Look's like it was taken down at some point:

[Link: www.southparkstudios.com...]

We apologize that South Park Studios is unable to stream this episode.

Season 5
Super Best Friends

I wonder when that happened.

Here's a brief clip of how the Prophet Mohammed was depicted in that episode (he's in the episode in a few different places, with spoken lines too):

301 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:53:09pm

re: #297 keithgabryelski

no, they don't find it offensive. they find it ignorant.

Calling atheism a faith is like calling not playing tennis a sport.

I love it! I'll have to remember that one.

302 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:53:30pm

re: #299 windsagio

sorry I offended you :D

He beat me to it... I was going to say it was stupid.

303 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:53:31pm

re: #250 LudwigVanQuixote

I do dare to go there, Ludwig. But you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Which is not something I either said or implied. You are a good guy and we agree most of the time, but this is a case where you are letting certain PC memes color your impression of what I said.

Interweb psychology does not become better when you're doing it. I am not doing this in the least bit out of any sense of PC whatsoever.

To critique Islam does not mean I am blind to the crimes of other fanatics - you might notice I am rather harsh on fundies of all stripes- and it is not a blanket statement that implies all Muslims adhere to the views I am critiquing.

When you talk about the historical acts of Mohammed-- who is revered as the Prophet by all Muslims except, perhaps, some Sufi-- you are definitely talking about something that applies to all Muslims. It is unnecessary and weakens your point. The point about the cries of Kahybar is an interesting historical point, obviously, but taken entirely out of context-- and acknowledging that you're taking it out of context doesn't really make it any better.

I am not saying that you are not allowed to say bad things about Mohammed. But you are definitely drawing a connection between Mohammed's actions and violent actions by Muslims in the modern day. I am pointing out that that is irrelevant; religious fanatics don't need any actual justification in their religious texts to act violently.

Which they do as a result of their current religious views.

Of course, which I acknowledged.

304 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:54:09pm

re: #302 Walter L. Newton

You might be prejudiced tho'.

305 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:54:13pm

I'm more into prosecuting crimes than prosecuting cultures, that's just generally how I roll

306 freetoken  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:54:14pm

South Africa judge who criticized Israel won't attend grandson's bar mitzvah

Judge Richard Goldstone, whose U.N. report criticized Israel's 2008 assault on Gaza, says a Zionist group threatened protests. He accuses South Africa's top rabbi of politicizing the ceremony.

Maybe Sigma_x is right... the whole thing is a plague...

307 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:54:29pm

re: #43 Thanos

If they can put Bill White in Jail for this shit, they can put Revolution Muslim in jail for this shit.

That deserves a metric fuck-ton of updings. Sadly, I can only give you one.

308 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:54:51pm

re: #298 windsagio

Well you know how it is. Racism (oops IINOAR, rite?) is all about confirmation bias.

especially when you have a giant crazy Time-Cube-esque site full of bullshit terrorism statistics to make yourself look legit

309 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:55:16pm

re: #304 windsagio

You might be prejudiced tho'.

You're not interested in what my doctor told me?

310 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:55:24pm

re: #251 SanFranciscoZionist

And yet, I stand in demonstrations, across the street from gay Americans denouncing Israel and Israel alone.

Hell of a world.

Personally, I don't think they really know about it that much. And even if they do, whats the point of protesting it here? There isn't an Iranian Embassy in the US, and they sure as hell wouldn't listen to anything our citizens say anyways. Israel at least is a major US ally, and thus would be monitoring what is said about itself here.

Either way, I think they would change their tune if they say that picture. Or, at least, I really hope they would.

311 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:56:24pm

re: #300 simoom

I wonder when that happened.

Here's a brief clip of how the Prophet Mohammed was depicted in that episode (he's in the episode in a few different places, with spoken lines too):

[Video]

Super Best Friends aired in July 2001, two months before 9/11.

312 Kefirah  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:56:26pm

re: #255 Walter L. Newton

there was no equation of the two. rather, both were simply used as examples of "text" or "art" that might drive someone to violence, and why censoring items simply based on what other individuals might potentially derive from them is very shaky territory.

provocative and hateful statements that incite to violence are one thing, and those individuals should be held accountable - but derivations from art or the torah or what.have.you are quite another.

313 Donna Ballard  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:56:42pm

re: #294 Fozzie Bear

Are you seriously fucking comparing the women's rights movement to terrorism?

Wow, just... wow.

No, the woman's right movement has absolutely nothing to do with N.O.W.'s political agenda is what I'm saying! N.O.W started the political correctness B.S. and everyone else who thought it was a great idea added their own version to it making the "Ohh don't say that, you might hurt someones feelings!" we have today. This is a slippery slope that a whole bunch of folks out there jumped on and slid with them.

314 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:57:33pm

re: #309 Walter L. Newton

Wait, what? I don't remember hearing anything like that!

Are you okay?

315 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:58:38pm

This is the guy that started it all. This is the "fatwa" he issued last week on his twitter page about the South Park thing. I posted about this last Sunday.

It's funny shit. Go to his twitter page and follow his tweets. Comedy Gold.

316 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:58:38pm

If only I had a time machine, I would put the following into every religious text known to man:

You aren't superior to anyone because you believe that you know the answers. If your preacher/rabbi/mullah tells you that you should ignore what your eyes tell you in favor of faith, you are in the wrong building. You are what you do, and no amount of faith can allow you to escape responsibility for your actions. Your God will forgive you, but that doesn't mean man will, or should.

317 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:58:44pm

re: #314 windsagio

Wait, what? I don't remember hearing anything like that!

Are you okay?

I was talking about my doctor touching me on the last thread a few hours ago.

318 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:59:13pm

re: #269 Fozzie Bear

At times like these I am glad to be an atheist. You can't offend me on the basis of faith. It's impossible. I have none.


Hi you! You are a great new lizard..We have never talked Fozzie..
Foz.. we all have faith..It's really is not an option..It a human trait.. When people lose faith they put a bullet in their head and strap on a bomb..We all have Faith...I think what you are saying you don't have faith in Religion and all the Bullshit that goes with it...I agree..I believe you can only know God in your Heart...God hates religion also..Heck he sends His Son and so religion hangs him on a Cross...Not really a good thing to celebrate about every week..I separate the Love of God from the cruelty of Man and his corrupt religions..
I believe that..And that is called Faith...You have faith also..
Regards

319 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:59:45pm
re: #303 Obdicut

I am not saying that you are not allowed to say bad things about Mohammed. But you are definitely drawing a connection between Mohammed's actions and violent actions by Muslims in the modern day. I am pointing out that that is irrelevant; religious fanatics don't need any actual justification in their religious texts to act violently.

It helps them tremendously with their brainwashing efforts.

320 Donna Ballard  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:59:54pm

You know what, I put my back out yesterday and maybe this is not the best time for me to be posting as the meds I'm on are obviously affecting what I'm typing. Sorry if anything I typed was misconstrued. Take care everyone.
Try to keep laughing, will you all?

321 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:00:20pm

re: #317 Walter L. Newton

I was talking about my doctor touching me on the last thread a few hours ago.

Well, how did it go? Good touch or bad touch?

322 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:00:37pm

re: #317 Walter L. Newton

Oh christ, sorry >>

I'm sure you asked for it!

323 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:01:15pm

re: #287 windsagio

You'll post what you want of course, but I think theres just too much negative emotional energy there.

Take it or leave it, as you will :p

OK that's fair but plese answer me this, becuase you are another person here that I really like, and I just don't get you on this point.

If I had wrote with my full spleen, about say Fred Phelps (and we both know that as far as my venting goes against backwards religious fanatics goes, I was rather tame here) you wuould ding it up and say Amen.

Given that Phelps, however odious has never killed anyone or threatened to, why do those crazy elements of Islam who murder daily and brutally get a pass?

While we are at it, let's really point to an elephant in the room. Violence and utter backwardness of a scale much worse than Phelps in Islam is not some small isolated little phenomena. One look at the Middle east, Northern Pakistan or Afghanistan will tell you that.

So why do they get a pass?

Ironically, this is the same question the guys from Southpark are asking.

324 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:01:26pm

re: #319 Spare O'Lake

I don't know. The Christians were incredibly effective in making Christianity, a religion by a go so peaceful he stopped his followers from mounting any defense of himself even though he was about to be killed, into a highly militaristic religion that claimed that rulers ruled by grace of God.

325 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:01:40pm

re: #320 Dragon_Lady

Feel better!

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:01:54pm

re: #285 Spare O'Lake

What is their fucking problem?
Jews have been on the front line of gay rights, while the Muslim establishment has been typically silent at best. And gays have more rights in Israel than they do in America, for crying out loud!
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The blind visceral hate for Israel among some of these otherwise sane-looking folks has to be seen to be believed.

327 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:02:19pm

re: #318 HoosierHoops

I appreciate that you care. However, I respectfully disagree with you about the nature of faith. Regardless, as I said in my last post, I think the way you treat others is the only measure of a person's worth. If your faith helps you find it within yourself to be good to people, then I applaud it. I try to be good to people for other reasons. To each his or her own.

Once again, thanks for at least giving a shit. I like that. It's a good trait.

328 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:02:45pm

re: #242 Charles

She is quite a woman.

329 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:03:28pm

re: #320 Dragon_Lady

You know what, I put my back out yesterday and maybe this is not the best time for me to be posting as the meds I'm on are obviously affecting what I'm typing. Sorry if anything I typed was misconstrued. Take care everyone.
Try to keep laughing, will you all?

Feel better, and arguments are just arguments. Sweat it not at all.

330 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:04:19pm

You know, incidentally, it's not just Muslims that do shit like this. Here's a letter written to Bob Cesca, who writes for the huffingtonpost, and who has lately been going after Glenn Beck with both barrels.

Apparently, someone took serious offense with him talking shit about Beck. You could just as easily read this as if it were written by a Islamo-douche talking about Muhammad being impugned. But he's not, he's talking about Glenn Fucking Beck.

"I feel sorry for you because talking about a man of GOD is scary. If I were you I would hide, oh of course, hiding won't help you because GOD Is all seeing, he can find you no matter where you are, you will be punished either here on earth or at the end of time, you are doomed, your words are disgraceful. I will pass on your ungodly words to my friends and ask them to pray that you will receive the justice you deserve. So be ready. No matter what you and your Muslim Socialist President say or do God will prevail. This is a Christian nation. I DARE YOU TO READ THE BIBLE and then when completed I would like to hear from you. I am sorry, I want to pray for you that God will reveal himself to you and you will be saved. I apologize for what I said earlier I DONT WANT ANYONE TO GO TO hell."

331 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:04:35pm

re: #327 Fozzie Bear

Nice having you here..Enjoy your posts

332 DoubleBarrellBunnyAnger  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:04:52pm

The only winners in this are those willing to commit violence. Violence now pays.

333 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:05:07pm

re: #310 Dante41

Personally, I don't think they really know about it that much. And even if they do, whats the point of protesting it here? There isn't an Iranian Embassy in the US, and they sure as hell wouldn't listen to anything our citizens say anyways. Israel at least is a major US ally, and thus would be monitoring what is said about itself here.

Either way, I think they would change their tune if they say that picture. Or, at least, I really hope they would.

I don't necessarily want them to protest Iran, although it couldn't hurt.

But they damn well should know.

334 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:05:48pm

re: #313 Dragon_Lady

No, the woman's right movement has absolutely nothing to do with N.O.W.'s political agenda is what I'm saying! N.O.W started the political correctness B.S. and everyone else who thought it was a great idea added their own version to it making the "Ohh don't say that, you might hurt someones feelings!" we have today. This is a slippery slope that a whole bunch of folks out there jumped on and slid with them.

How the heck did NOW get to be responsible for political correctness? I mean, specifically, NOW??

335 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:06:39pm

re: #327 Fozzie Bear

You know what, I lied, I do have a kind of faith.

I am a strict materialist, and that implies the belief (you might even call it faith) that the physical laws of nature are real, inviolable, and all-encompassing. there is one universe, by definition, and nothing can be outside it or violate its laws. Not even a "God". That might be a kind of faith, I suppose. I'll cop to that.

336 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:06:47pm

re: #334 SanFranciscoZionist

See #320.

337 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:07:11pm

re: #327 Fozzie Bear

I appreciate that you care. However, I respectfully disagree with you about the nature of faith. Regardless, as I said in my last post, I think the way you treat others is the only measure of a person's worth. If your faith helps you find it within yourself to be good to people, then I applaud it. I try to be good to people for other reasons. To each his or her own.

Once again, thanks for at least giving a shit. I like that. It's a good trait.

Yeah I rather like your posts too.

338 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:07:18pm

re: #319 Spare O'Lake

It helps them tremendously with their brainwashing efforts.

I dunno. Think of the poor guy who was here the other night arguing that there is no separation of church and state in the Constitution. Having the Establishment Clause right in front of him didn't help.

People believe what they want to, what they're told, what confirms their cultural prejudices.

339 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:07:28pm

You know, at times like this, I wish I had that link to the story of that Imam who put a Fatwa out on terrorism.

340 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:07:40pm

re: #323 LudwigVanQuixote

Phelps is loathsome, for sure. I think its the lack of focus. Phelps is one awful man, but its different to me than expressing anger towards a culture.

I guess it just minimizes all individuals within that area.

And believe me, I have some strong opinions about parts of Islam too, but for various reasons I hold them in :p

I guess my answer would be 'your post went from finding aspects of a culture terrible to having this great anger against that culture, and the expression that anger is what makes me uncomfortable.' The fact that we're talking about Islam is secondary.

341 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:08:26pm

This Poem Does Not Mock Mohammed

by Cato the Elder

Well, Jesus never married.
He must have been a loon.
And Buddha, after finding peace
Blew up like a balloon.
Zoroaster's just plain weird.
His followers get et by birds.
Mohammed, though, Mohammed:
[censored] [deleted] turds.

342 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:10:00pm

re: #341 Cato the Elder

This Poem Does Not Mock Mohammed

by Cato the Elder

Well, Jesus never married.
He must have been a loon.
And Buddha, after finding peace
Blew up like a balloon.
Zoroaster's just plain weird.
His followers get et by birds.
Mohammed, though, Mohammed:
[censored] [deleted] turds.

Dude, you are a genius in a very peculiar way. One of a kind, you are.

343 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:10:13pm

re: #335 Fozzie Bear

Thank you, that was a wonderful thing to say :D

I always wanna argue that the true 'scientific people without faith' are agnostic anyways, but that's a different, also long argument :D

344 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:10:40pm

re: #339 Dante41

You know, at times like this, I wish I had that link to the story of that Imam who put a Fatwa out on terrorism.

I think his theme song should be this.

345 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:10:49pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

IMNSHO, all religion is fair game. It just so happens that radicalized Muslims don't know how to behave in polite society. They could learn a thing or two from the Christians, Buddhists, Jews, and even the nonreligious crowd.

346 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:11:13pm

My heart goes out to Matt, Trey, and the folks at CC. Making a decision to self-censor is not an easy one, and it saddens me that despite the fact that we live in a country which values freedom of speech like no other, we still live in a world where people find it necessary to make such decisions out of fear for their lives.

347 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:11:37pm

re: #339 Dante41

You know, at times like this, I wish I had that link to the story of that Imam who put a Fatwa out on terrorism.

Ah, here it is.

348 simoom  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:12:12pm

re: #311 Dark_Falcon

Super Best Friends aired in July 2001, two months before 9/11.

I've seen it rerun quite a few times, most recently couldn't have been more than a couple of years ago.

349 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:12:19pm

Here's the latest tweet on the subject from the guy who started the whole thing.

"The kuffar are starting to really pick up on the South Park story in sha'a Allah this can be the USA's version of the Rushdie affair in UK."

350 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:12:23pm

re: #339 Dante41

You know, at times like this, I wish I had that link to the story of that Imam who put a Fatwa out on terrorism.

ROFL. I don't know of this Imam, but I like him. Sort of a self defeating thing though. A jihad on jihads. How would that work?

351 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:12:33pm

re: #297 keithgabryelski

no, they don't find it offensive. they find it ignorant.

Calling atheism a faith is like calling not playing tennis a sport.

My favorite is this one:

Calling atheism a religion is like calling baldness a hair color.

It especially appeals to me b/c I'm going bald myself, and I am an atheist.

352 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:13:21pm

re: #340 windsagio

Phelps is loathsome, for sure. I think its the lack of focus. Phelps is one awful man, but its different to me than expressing anger towards a culture.

I guess it just minimizes all individuals within that area.

And believe me, I have some strong opinions about parts of Islam too, but for various reasons I hold them in :p

I guess my answer would be 'your post went from finding aspects of a culture terrible to having this great anger against that culture, and the expression that anger is what makes me uncomfortable.' The fact that we're talking about Islam is secondary.

Why do you hold your critiques for parts of Islam in?

I have been abundantly clear that I am talking about certain subsets of Islam and that I am an equal oppurtunity despiser of all backwards, brutal, cruel fundamentalists no matter what faith.

No one - except perhaps the idiots at the deuce think I think all Christians are bad folks (or even most of them) when I tear the snot out of folks like Phelps or Inhofe.

So either you can critique all religious nuts or none of them.

We have free speech here and if you want religious barbarians to get a clue, it has to start with letting them know that there are other and better views and that you are not afraid of them.

This is again the whole point of the South Park guys.

As to your other point, a religion is not a culture, but it certainly can be used to justify a culture of violence and repression. If you deny that is the situation that obtains in much of the Muslim world, you need to open your eyes. If you see that clearly, and you know that is wrong, you need to open your mouth.

353 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:13:21pm

re: #346 Slumbering Behemoth

All tho Matt and Trey didn't have ot make the decision.

Now they justneed to freakin' release some version of it on the website!!

354 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:13:25pm

Sorry, here it is.

355 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:13:46pm

re: #342 Fozzie Bear

Dude, you are a genius in a very peculiar way. One of a kind, you are.

You have no idea.

356 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:14:11pm

re: #352 LudwigVanQuixote

HEAR HEAR

357 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:14:40pm

re: #353 windsagio

It matters not. Their lives were still threatened by stone-aged goons.

358 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:15:57pm

re: #348 simoom

I've seen it rerun quite a few times, most recently couldn't have been more than a couple of years ago.

It actually aired once just a couple weeks ago. I guess Matt Stone (who tends to handle the showing of repeats) put a fast one past the suits.

359 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:17:10pm

re: #352 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm not disputing many of the things you said (altho' some of those claims per Mohammed specifically I'd never heard before), I'm just thinking that given the bigoted attitude of many on here towards that particular region anywyas, we don't need more anger or piling on.

In a similar way, I don't really enjoy people picking on Scientology, and won't do it myself. I mean sure its crap, but its also an easy target, and picking on them doesn't do any good, except to make people feel good in unhealthy ways.

So either you can critique all religious nuts or none of them.

I have absolutely no objection to this statement.

360 simoom  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:17:11pm

re: #358 Dark_Falcon

It actually aired once just a couple weeks ago. I guess Matt Stone (who tends to handle the showing of repeats) put a fast one past the suits.

I guess they've caught on now. =/

361 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:17:40pm

re: #357 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh absolutely, just being obnoxious and correcting you :P

362 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:17:58pm

Al Gore, not known for a sense of humor, can take it up the Manbearpig ass from Matt and Trey, but Mohammed can't take being in a bear costume?

Something so wrong about this.

363 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:18:08pm

re: #361 windsagio

What is there to correct?

364 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:18:44pm

re: #341 Cato the Elder

Birds are no weirder than worms, says my Zoroastrian friend.

Zoroaster was a meal for an eagle,
Christ on a stick is a bad way to die
Buddha was fatter than a beagle.

Moroni is a name that needs no more abuse
Mongols just worshiped the sky.
And there are few bigger bastards than Zeus.

Mohammed was lame, another warmongering douche
The Scientologists made poor Chef cry
But at least there's only one Lyndon LaRouche.

365 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:18:50pm

re: #209 Obdicut

I'm an atheist, though, so my only concern in saying such things is bringing pain to fine people like you. Which is why I wouldn't do it outside the context of a demonstration of free speech.

But yes, I still feel very guilty every year around Yom Kippur, despite parents who converted to Catholicism and Jewish grandparents who were atheists. Make of that what you will.

re: #324 Obdicut

I don't know. The Christians were incredibly effective in making Christianity, a religion by a go so peaceful he stopped his followers from mounting any defense of himself even though he was about to be killed, into a highly militaristic religion that claimed that rulers ruled by grace of God.

You seem to be in denial about the brainwashing techniques of the radical Islamofascists. They employ an extremely dogmatic and literalist curriculum which depends heavily on the biographical details of the life of Muhammad. I strongly recommend that you read The Trouble With Islam by Irshad Manji and Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State by Tarek Fatah. Islam has been hijacked in many countries by the extremists, and remains stuck in the dark ages.

366 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:19:32pm

re: #359 windsagio

I'm not disputing many of the things you said (altho' some of those claims per Mohammed specifically I'd never heard before), I'm just thinking that given the bigoted attitude of many on here towards that particular region anywyas, we don't need more anger or piling on.

In a similar way, I don't really enjoy people picking on Scientology, and won't do it myself. I mean sure its crap, but its also an easy target, and picking on them doesn't do any good, except to make people feel good in unhealthy ways.

Starting right now, I'm picking on you for three full weeks for not mocking $cientology.

367 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:19:57pm

re: #365 Spare O'Lake

You seem to be in denial about the brainwashing techniques of the radical Islamofascists

You seem to be obsessed with claiming others are in denial.

They employ an extremely dogmatic and literalist curriculum which depends heavily on the biographical details of the life of Muhammad.

And if they weren't able to do that, they'd use something else.

368 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:20:01pm

re: #363 Slumbering Behemoth

I got the impression you thought Parker/Stone were part of the decision to censor. They weren't.

Like I said, really minor point :P

369 EastSider  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:20:10pm

re: #362 Cato the Elder

Al Gore, not known for a sense of humor, can take it up the Manbearpig ass from Matt and Trey, but Mohammed can't take being in a bear costume?

Something so wrong about this.

Excelsior!

370 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:20:52pm

re: #352 LudwigVanQuixote

Why do you hold your critiques for parts of Islam in?

I have been abundantly clear that I am talking about certain subsets of Islam and that I am an equal oppurtunity despiser of all backwards, brutal, cruel fundamentalists no matter what faith.

No one - except perhaps the idiots at the deuce think I think all Christians are bad folks (or even most of them) when I tear the snot out of folks like Phelps or Inhofe.

So either you can critique all religious nuts or none of them.

We have free speech here and if you want religious barbarians to get a clue, it has to start with letting them know that there are other and better views and that you are not afraid of them.

This is again the whole point of the South Park guys.

As to your other point, a religion is not a culture, but it certainly can be used to justify a culture of violence and repression. If you deny that is the situation that obtains in much of the Muslim world, you need to open your eyes. If you see that clearly, and you know that is wrong, you need to open your mouth.

Speaking of "The Deuce": If you need some comedy relief, check out Rodan's rant favoring Marco Rubio. He calls Obama "Totalitarian" and the Democratic nominee presumptive Meeks a "Tranzi". It's funny in its deranged way.

371 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:21:00pm

re: #368 windsagio

No, that's not what I said. Actually, I am pretty hip to the SP score.

372 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:21:39pm

re: #366 Cato the Elder

Heh, I can take it :D

373 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:22:13pm

re: #371 Slumbering Behemoth

then I was just wrong, dammit.

Oh well, I guess a single mistake just makes me human :D

374 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:23:36pm

re: #359 windsagio

I'm not disputing many of the things you said (altho' some of those claims per Mohammed specifically I'd never heard before), I'm just thinking that given the bigoted attitude of many on here towards that particular region anywyas, we don't need more anger or piling on.

In a similar way, I don't really enjoy people picking on Scientology, and won't do it myself. I mean sure its crap, but its also an easy target, and picking on them doesn't do any good, except to make people feel good in unhealthy ways.

I have absolutely no objection to this statement.

1. If you make an objective study of Scientology, you will find that it is not a religion at all, it is a brutal cult.

2. As far as anger at Muslims, there would be a lot less if so many Muslims didn't go around blowing people up, chopping off heads, abusing women, stoning people for being gay, executing people for witchcraft, being the only religious legal code in the world where the rape victim is defined as a criminal herself or oh yeah, constantly telling us that they will kill us if we question that.

375 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:24:09pm

re: #373 windsagio

You're a human?!? Argh! My whole world is falling apart.
/

376 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:24:30pm

re: #364 Obdicut

Birds are no weirder than worms, says my Zoroastrian friend.

Zoroaster was a meal for an eagle,
Christ on a stick is a bad way to die
Buddha was fatter than a beagle.

Moroni is a name that needs no more abuse
Mongols just worshiped the sky.
And there are few bigger bastards than Zeus.

Mohammed was lame, another warmongering douche
The Scientologists made poor Chef cry
But at least there's only one Lyndon LaRouche.

Wow. Almost-perfect terza rima. I take back everything bad I've ever said about you - and will say it again in other ways when the mood strikes. ;^)

By the way, on the iTunes University you can get a free Yale series of lectures about "Dante in Translation". Just downloaded it the other day.

377 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:25:04pm

re: #359 windsagio

I'm not disputing many of the things you said (altho' some of those claims per Mohammed specifically I'd never heard before), I'm just thinking that given the bigoted attitude of many on here towards that particular region anywyas, we don't need more anger or piling on.

In a similar way, I don't really enjoy people picking on Scientology, and won't do it myself. I mean sure its crap, but its also an easy target, and picking on them doesn't do any good, except to make people feel good in unhealthy ways.

I have absolutely no objection to this statement.

Play the following and skip to about 6:20 if you have to. It's Harlan Ellison discussing his personal experiences with L Ron concerning $cientology.

378 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:25:22pm

re: #365 Spare O'Lake

I think the point is that these techniques are hardly unique to Islam.

379 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:25:28pm

re: #375 Slumbering Behemoth

You're a human?!? Argh! My whole world is falling apart.
/

So you thought he was a meat popsicle? :D

380 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:25:39pm

re: #367 Obdicut

And if they weren't able to do that, they'd use something else.

So what. Because you are not religious at all, perhaps you don't get how powerful the message that your prophet did such and such can be for some people. I am not trying to do web psychology per se - it is the kindest way I can hypothesize as to why you are not acknowledging something so obvious.

381 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:26:35pm

re: #376 Cato the Elder

Ooh, cool. The first 'adult' book I read was Dante's Inferno, when I was twelve. That's a book that Muslims should be trying to ban, given that it displays Mohammed as mutilated for his heresy. Not topical enough for them, I guess.

And I actually like the Purgatorio better than the Inferno. Less political, I feel.

382 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:26:58pm

re: #379 Dark_Falcon

I thought he was some sort of advanced, posting logarithm.

383 justaminute  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:27:10pm

Hi everyone! I have been working alot lately, all my employees have spring fever. It happens every time this time of year. Who can blame them.

i kinda of chuckle when people talk of the Middle East and the Muslim faith. Most of the modern Muslims are in Europe and North America. I have been to Iran and a number of other Muslim countries. There is thousands of little villages that are lucky to have running water and electricity. My husband's family did not even have a refrigerator or a television until the 1970's and he's from a large city in Iran named Shiraz. His family was more affluent than the population living in the villages.

I went there for the first time in 1983. I remember telling my husband that it was like time traveling back to the 1940's in larger cities and the villages were comparable to the early 1900's. For many people life centered around their local mosque. Entertainment in the cities is fair but censored and non existent in villages. That is why drug addiction thrives. Satellites feeds just started 4 or 5 years ago. Internet usage requires money. So modern Islamic thought is hard to come by in these places and it is not always the people fault.

384 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:27:15pm

re: #381 Obdicut

Ooh, cool. The first 'adult' book I read was Dante's Inferno, when I was twelve. That's a book that Muslims should be trying to ban, given that it displays Mohammed as mutilated for his heresy. Not topical enough for them, I guess.

And I actually like the Purgatorio better than the Inferno. Less political, I feel.

Needs more brimstone.

385 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:27:54pm

re: #380 LudwigVanQuixote

I used to be very religious, so no, that explanation of my behavior doesn't actually work. I'd suggest not actually trying to explain why I'm doing something.

What is the 'obvious' thing that I'm supposed to be acknowledging here?

386 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:28:01pm

re: #374 LudwigVanQuixote

Well you're kinda missing my point re:scientology. Think of it as a dead horse mentality. We all know about it, and there's no point to keep carrying on, except people like beating on an easy target.

On the other note, I'm not disputing any of that. I admit I just thought you were too worked up. I may well have been out of line to say anything, but thats what I was thinking. My only other note would be to be careful of 'broad-brushing' people, which it felt like you were doing.

To be honest, in my heart of hearts, I think that alot of those abuses are alot more closely tied to ME/specifically Arab culture, and less to Islam. As a treat tho', one of the opinions I usually hold in is that one of the major problems with Islam is that the Prophet sold out to Arabian culture before his faith even got started. Its the only faith I can think of that preemptively sold out.

387 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:28:27pm

re: #375 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm actually a computer generated cartoon character that's gained sentience, but don't tell anyone!

388 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:28:40pm

re: #387 windsagio

Oops, damn. Somebody delete that for me!

389 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:28:40pm

re: #386 windsagio

I totally disagree. Not talking about will only help them to obscure their bullshit.

390 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:28:42pm

re: #381 Obdicut

Ooh, cool. The first 'adult' book I read was Dante's Inferno, when I was twelve. That's a book that Muslims should be trying to ban, given that it displays Mohammed as mutilated for his heresy. Not topical enough for them, I guess.

And I actually like the Purgatorio better than the Inferno. Less political, I feel.

Less political, yes. But Dante did put most of his interesting characters into Inferno.

391 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:29:42pm

re: #390 Dante41

Well what would you know about it?

/

392 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:29:57pm

re: #389 JasonA

Lol who doesn't know at this point?

(that you're likely to meet on a blog like this?)

393 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:29:57pm

re: #378 Fozzie Bear

I think the point is that these techniques are hardly unique to Islam.

The significant difference being that by and large, most other religions have surrendered such techniques to the dust-bin of history.

394 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:30:24pm

re: #359 windsagio

Scientology isn't a religion, it is a scam. I won't budge on this issue. They fleece people. You have to PAY to see the religious texts, a piece at a time, at ever increasing expense.

There is no fucking way I will ever agree that telling people they have to pay for access to religious texts fundamental to the 'religion' in question is anything other than a shoddy self-help business model. Scientology is a giant steaming pile of shit that barely qualifies to be called a cult. I say this with all due respect to any scientologists here.

395 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:30:59pm

re: #378 Fozzie Bear

I think the point is that these techniques are hardly unique to Islam.

Actually, the point is that Islam has been hijacked by its radicals, is frozen in time, and desperately needs to be freed, reformed and brought out of the Dark Ages into modernity.

396 Dante41  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:31:19pm

re: #391 Obdicut

Well what would you know about it?

/

Don't tell anyone, but I have a personal relationship with the author. It's a secret!

/

397 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:31:59pm

re: #377 JasonA

Play the following and skip to about 6:20 if you have to. It's Harlan Ellison discussing his personal experiences with L Ron concerning $cientology.

[Video]

I remember someone posting this before. It's as close to proof that $¢i€₦₮o₤o₲¥ is a completely made up scam to drain people of money as you can get. I was looking for this clip a few days ago to show a few friends (and no they weren't thinking about becoming $¢i€₦₮o₤o₲ists).

398 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:32:08pm

re: #394 Fozzie Bear

I'm not disagreeing with that dammit!

Scientology is a massive criminal scam! I agree!

The problem is, that everyone likes to carry on about it because its easy and safe, and it makes them feel righteous.

399 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:32:19pm

re: #395 Spare O'Lake

Which is exactly what I think. Does that mean you're in denial with me?

400 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:32:21pm

re: #394 Fozzie Bear

Heh. I'd say you're more likely to find a gay furry here than you would a scientologist.

401 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:32:55pm

re: #398 windsagio

Ok, speaking of broad brushes, pull the 'everyone' out of htat post >>

402 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:33:22pm

re: #400 Slumbering Behemoth

Or a mormon, strangely.

403 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:34:42pm

re: #399 Obdicut

Which is exactly what I think. Does that mean you're in denial with me?

I hate it when you agree with me...you're spoiling everything!

404 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:34:52pm

re: #374 LudwigVanQuixote

You should know that 'grimcargo' over at the Stalker Blog has said he should challenge you to a duel. More threats from them. We ought to keep a tally for future litigation.

405 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:35:42pm

re: #402 windsagio

I'm confused. Are you saying we're less likely to find a mormon here, or more likely?

406 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:36:12pm

re: #398 windsagio

I'm not disagreeing with that dammit!

Scientology is a massive criminal scam! I agree!

The problem is, that everyone likes to carry on about it because its easy and safe, and it makes them feel righteous.

Hey, we can talk about Acor... I mean $cientology as much as we damn well please!

407 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:36:47pm

re: #398 windsagio

Understood. This subject never fails to get me going, you just accidentally triggered a semi-pavlovian response in me. As an atheist, I don't agree with much of the teachings of most religions, but at least they can provide structure, culture, and meaning for people. Scientology does nothing but make absurd promises as it robs people.

grrrrrrrrrrrrr

408 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:36:50pm

re: #405 Slumbering Behemoth

Less likely. Was probably an ill-advised post.

409 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:37:31pm

re: #406 JasonA

Pff, just wait. My secret government is almost complete! And then those who have opposed me will pay!

410 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:38:05pm

Ron Paul is on Hardball being just ruled by Chris Matthews about health insurance mandates lol

411 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:38:13pm

re: #385 Obdicut

I used to be very religious, so no, that explanation of my behavior doesn't actually work. I'd suggest not actually trying to explain why I'm doing something.

What is the 'obvious' thing that I'm supposed to be acknowledging here?

That just because violent horrible folks will do violent horrible things for all sorts of reasons and justifications other than religion, of course, religion is one of the greatest vehicles for creating that behavior.

412 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:38:41pm

re: #394 Fozzie Bear

Scientology isn't a religion, it is a scam. I won't budge on this issue. They fleece people. You have to PAY to see the religious texts, a piece at a time, at ever increasing expense.

There is no fucking way I will ever agree that telling people they have to pay for access to religious texts fundamental to the 'religion' in question is anything other than a shoddy self-help business model. Scientology is a giant steaming pile of shit that barely qualifies to be called a cult. I say this with all due respect to any scientologists here.

Say it loud and say it proud.

413 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:38:42pm

re: #404 Dark_Falcon

I'd like the note that in a traditional duel, the one who was challenged picks the weapons.

414 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:38:58pm

re: #381 Obdicut

Ooh, cool. The first 'adult' book I read was Dante's Inferno, when I was twelve. That's a book that Muslims should be trying to ban, given that it displays Mohammed as mutilated for his heresy. Not topical enough for them, I guess.

And I actually like the Purgatorio better than the Inferno. Less political, I feel.

You should definitely get the lecture series, then. When you go to the iTunes store, choose "power search" and "iTunes U". Then enter "Dante" under "description" and "Yale" under "Institution".

It's a full-semester course in 48 lessons.

Voltaire wrote a play called "Le fanatisme, ou Mahomet le Prophete". It's available in German and English, too. I've been meaning for years to put it up on an anonymous website to diddle the brains of the Islamofascists. The German version was done by Goethe, I believe - a poet whom some Islamists claim was a seekrit Muslim. Like Obama.

The English version (I have to look this up to be sure) may have been done by no less a genius than Thomas Carlyle himself. I may well be imagining that, though.

415 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:38:58pm

re: #407 Fozzie Bear

But how else do I rid myself of body thetans???

416 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:39:01pm

re: #408 windsagio

Nah. We do have mormon Lizards here, they just don't make a point of making that a point.

Anyway, I must go out and do some shopping rounds. I will be wearing my South Park t-shirt as a show of solidarity.

Fuck Radical Islamists.

417 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:39:13pm

re: #411 LudwigVanQuixote

That just because violent horrible folks will do violent horrible things for all sorts of reasons and justifications other than religion, of course, religion is one of the greatest vehicles for creating that behavior.

I'm not sure how that's not exactly what I was saying.

418 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:40:46pm

re: #404 Dark_Falcon

You should know that 'grimcargo' over at the Stalker Blog has said he should challenge you to a duel. More threats from them. We ought to keep a tally for future litigation.

Really why? Well ok... I choose angry attorneys at dawn... I use only the finest angry Jewish ones.

419 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:41:11pm

Talk to y'all later, Beat hazard came out on Steam, and I need to play it some more >>

420 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:41:21pm

re: #398 windsagio

I'm not disagreeing with that dammit!

Scientology is a massive criminal scam! I agree!

The problem is, that everyone likes to carry on about it because its easy and safe, and it makes them feel righteous.

Actually, you have no clue.

Beating up on $cientology can get your ass beat up, or kidnapped, or worse.

It is not just a criminal scam, it is a menace, an evil cult, and should be tackled whenever one finds an opportunity.

421 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:41:49pm

re: #418 LudwigVanQuixote

Really why? Well ok... I choose angry attorneys at dawn... I use only the finest angry Jewish ones.

Got consanguinity?

422 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:41:53pm

re: #405 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm confused. Are you saying we're less likely to find a mormon here, or more likely?

We have plenty of Mormons here.

423 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:42:02pm

re: #417 Obdicut

I'm not sure how that's not exactly what I was saying.

So if we agree on that, then you see the danger of teaching people that Mohammed wants you to kill people and this is the example he set. The Haditha are not just some little known text. They are the Muslim equivalent of Talmud.

424 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:42:50pm

re: #413 Obdicut

I'd like the note that in a traditional duel, the one who was challenged picks the weapons.

And the one who doesn't pick the weapons picks the specific weapon he will use.

425 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:43:28pm

re: #404 Dark_Falcon

You should know that 'grimcargo' over at the Stalker Blog has said he should challenge you to a duel. More threats from them. We ought to keep a tally for future litigation.

Hahaha...and remember, the libs have the best tort lawyers.

426 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:43:51pm

re: #423 LudwigVanQuixote

So if we agree on that, then you see the danger of teaching people that Mohammed wants you to kill people and this is the example he set. The Haditha are not just some little known text. They are the Muslim equivalent of Talmud.

I love you more every day.

427 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:45:12pm

re: #413 Obdicut

I'd like the note that in a traditional duel, the one who was challenged picks the weapons.

this would be my weapon: Image: Wacom-Cintiq-21UX-Driver_1.jpg

428 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:45:59pm

re: #411 LudwigVanQuixote
You do have to admit that religion is a very, very powerful vehicle. Be it for good or ill. That of course would require, in order to be consistent, that one acknowledge that this would mean that some religions are, frankly, 'better' than others, but that isn't something you can say out loud. So, I type it instead under the name of a comedian bear.

waka waka waka

429 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:46:56pm

re: #426 Cato the Elder

I love you more every day.

>Smooch

430 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:47:07pm

re: #400 Slumbering Behemoth

Heh. I'd say you're more likely to find a gay furry here than you would a scientologist.

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

and we don't spend our money on e-meters!

431 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:47:29pm

re: #426 Cato the Elder

I love you more every day.

I knew it,
I knew it,
I knew it.

432 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:47:37pm

Harlan Ellison on god. I love this man.

433 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:48:23pm

re: #432 JasonA

he's not wearing his sunglasses!

434 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:49:13pm

re: #432 JasonA

Harlan Ellison on god. I love this man.

I love his work. In life, I'm told, he's one of the nastier little shits you never want to meet.

435 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:50:00pm

re: #434 Cato the Elder

I love his work. In life, I'm told, he's one of the nastier little shits you never want to meet.

I can live with that. Steve Ditko, who gave us Spider-man, is supposedly much the same way.

436 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:50:14pm

re: #432 JasonA

Harlan Ellison on god. I love this man.


[Video]

You just went up in my estimation.

437 SixDegrees  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:53:36pm

I dunno. I just got done watching the South Park episode in question, and the bleeps, frankly, were hilarious - as funny, if not more so, than any dialog that they might have overlaid.

I think S&P are goofing on this. Their story has changed since this morning, when they claimed that only some bleeps were added after production.

Either way, the episode drove it's point home hard and true. One of their best shows over the last few seasons.

438 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:54:23pm

re: #423 LudwigVanQuixote

So if we agree on that, then you see the danger of teaching people that Mohammed wants you to kill people and this is the example he set. The Haditha are not just some little known text. They are the Muslim equivalent of Talmud.

Yes, of course. I'm simply saying that reciting historical facts from Mohammed's life and drawing a connection to modern Muslim behavior is irrelevant to that. Christians were able to inspire similarly insane behavior with no examples of Christ killing anyone. Boy oh boy, though, did they make a lot out of "I come not to bring peace but a sword" and the kicking out of the moneylenders, though-- especially when they wanted to slaughter rich Jews.

439 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:55:57pm

re: #432 JasonA

At one point, he stumbles.

"We were given [long pause, while he thinks about the implications of a gift being given necessarily implying a giver] in our toolbox [...]"

This is the essential stumbling block of the "moral atheist". Where does morality come from?

[blank stares]

As Dostoevsky said, "If God is dead, all is permitted."

All. As in rape, pillage, pedophilia, snuff films, female genital mutilation, child marriage, and trading in derivatives.

440 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 4:58:11pm

re: #439 Cato the Elder

If god is dead, all is permitted. If god never existed, that doesn't hold true. Nothing has changed. You'd have to alter the phrase to be "If not enough people believe in God, regardless of whether he's a fiction, then all is permitted". Which is still not true.

Morality comes from the same place everything else in human culture does, including religion. Us.

We rule and suck. We suck at ruling.

441 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:02:04pm

re: #420 Cato the Elder

I know all about that stuff, don't be so damn condescending.

name one person on this blog that has been actually threatened or hurt for saying something bad about Scientology, and I'll apologize to everybody.

442 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:02:54pm

re: #441 windsagio

Also, it turns out my game doesn't support alt-tabbing >> lame.

443 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:05:13pm

re: #439 Cato the Elder

At one point, he stumbles.

"We were given [long pause, while he thinks about the implications of a gift being given necessarily implying a giver] in our toolbox [...]"

This is the essential stumbling block of the "moral atheist". Where does morality come from?

[blank stares]

As Dostoevsky said, "If God is dead, all is permitted."

All. As in rape, pillage, pedophilia, snuff films, female genital mutilation, child marriage, and trading in derivatives.

No permission is required. There's nothing to stop us from doing these things except for each other. If "morals" come from anywhere it's an understanding of the greater good and how promoting it also helps us individually.

444 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:13:25pm

re: #440 Obdicut

If god is dead, all is permitted. If god never existed, that doesn't hold true. Nothing has changed. You'd have to alter the phrase to be "If not enough people believe in God, regardless of whether he's a fiction, then all is permitted". Which is still not true.

Morality comes from the same place everything else in human culture does, including religion. Us.

We rule and suck. We suck at ruling.

No, my friend. This is where we part company.

If I remember aright, you are an atheist of Jewish heritage. NTTAWWT.

The crucial question is, why does "morality" exist at all?

There may be evolutionary reasons for not murdering your kin, but what, in the "selfish gene" theory, should ever have come up with the idea that one should not kill random strangers?

Where did the idea arise that the stranger (in Greek: χενος, zenos = both "stranger" and "guest") enjoys particular protection?

Why is there a prohibition against murder written in every human heart?

Why do Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, and every other "religion" except maybe $cientology (which commands that thou shalt do good only unto them that can pay) command respect for the weak and powerless?

There is no possible scientific explanation for this. We see the proof every day, in that to survive in this society, the very best thing you can do is oppress and exploit the weak and powerless for your own gain.

Well, I'm going to go all hippie on you here, and leave you with a song by the Incredible String Band.

445 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:15:32pm

re: #441 windsagio

I know all about that stuff, don't be so damn condescending.

name one person on this blog that has been actually threatened or hurt for saying something bad about Scientology, and I'll apologize to everybody.

Why does it have to be someone on this blog, you smug little man?

446 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:16:06pm

re: #439 Cato the Elder

That's an absurd argument. All is permitted that Man doesn't prohibit. It has always been so. Compassion is not a religious concept, it is a human instinct.

447 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:16:36pm

re: #443 JasonA

No permission is required. There's nothing to stop us from doing these things except for each other. If "morals" come from anywhere it's an understanding of the greater good and how promoting it also helps us individually.

Yeah.

[dies spluttering in horrific mirth]

448 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:17:01pm

re: #445 Cato the Elder

Why does it have to be someone on this blog, you smug little man?

Was that insult really necessary, Cato?

449 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:17:07pm

re: #446 Fozzie Bear

That's an absurd argument. All is permitted that Man doesn't prohibit. It has always been so. Compassion is not a religious concept, it is a human instinct.

Uh-huh.

450 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:18:04pm

re: #448 Dark_Falcon

Was that insult really necessary, Cato?

Response to "condescending".

Plus I'm an immoral theist and love insults.

451 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:18:41pm

re: #445 Cato the Elder

Lol what is wrong with you? Is it just curmudgeon schtick?

"On this blog" has 2 advantages. One, its verifiable (somewhat), and (more importantly), its actually relevant. There's a far difference in risk between carrying on about something on a blog (even a prominent one) as a commentator, and, say, writing an article for Newsweek.

Charles might realistically get a threat (or really more likely, a lawsuit). You or me? No way in hell. For your average commentator, attacking Scientology is 100% safe.

452 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:19:45pm

re: #451 windsagio

sigh, I should avoid absolutes. lets try 98% safe.

453 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:21:31pm

re: #444 Cato the Elder

No, my friend. This is where we part company.

If I remember aright, you are an atheist of Jewish heritage. NTTAWWT.

The crucial question is, why does "morality" exist at all?

There may be evolutionary reasons for not murdering your kin, but what, in the "selfish gene" theory, should ever have come up with the idea that one should not kill random strangers?

Where did the idea arise that the stranger (in Greek: χενος, zenos = both "stranger" and "guest") enjoys particular protection?

Why is there a prohibition against murder written in every human heart?

Why do Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, and every other "religion" except maybe $cientology (which commands that thou shalt do good only unto them that can pay) command respect for the weak and powerless?

There is no possible scientific explanation for this. We see the proof every day, in that to survive in this society, the very best thing you can do is oppress and exploit the weak and powerless for your own gain.

Well, I'm going to go all hippie on you here, and leave you with a song by the Incredible String Band.


[Video]

This is not in defense of Obdicut in any way; in fact I find his pessimism a trivial expression which would sound better if it was expressed as sarcasm.

You however are being incredibly simplistic in your thinking in the above logic and I won't bother to try to go beyond asking you how you are so sure that the stranger you might kill is only a stranger to you, and not the stranger who will come and kill you after?

No, I didn't listen to the song. Would it have enlightened me?/

454 Decatur Deb  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:21:32pm

re: #444 Cato the Elder

...snip

The crucial question is, why does "morality" exist at all?

There may be evolutionary reasons for not murdering your kin, but what, in the "selfish gene" theory, should ever have come up with the idea that one should not kill random strangers?

Where did the idea arise that the stranger (in Greek: χενος, zenos = both "stranger" and "guest") enjoys particular protection?

Why is there a prohibition against murder written in every human heart?

Why do Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, and every other "religion" except maybe $cientology (which commands that thou shalt do good only unto them that can pay) command respect for the weak and powerless?

There is no possible scientific explanation for this. We see the proof every day, in that to survive in this society, the very best thing you can do is oppress and exploit the weak and powerless for your own gain.

Well, I'm going to go all hippie on you here, and leave you with a song by the Incredible String Band.


[Video]

Evolution--the cultural kind. Human groups that developed the same rough set of moral precepts generally functioned more effectively than those that did not. The "nots" tended to disappear.

455 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:21:39pm

re: #444 Cato the Elder


Why is there a prohibition against murder written in every human heart?

Why do Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, and every other "religion" ... command respect for the weak and powerless?

There is no possible scientific explanation for this. We see the proof every day, in that to survive in this society, the very best thing you can do is oppress and exploit the weak and powerless for your own gain.

I'm not sure I buy this. After further reflection, I'm sure I don't. I'm generally skeptical when I hear something like "there is no possible scientific explanation" because usually, there is. To my understanding, neither evolutionary theory nor cognitive science rules out cooperative behavior.

456 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:23:07pm

PIMF. ..and not TO the stranger...

457 Four More Tears  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:23:41pm

re: #451 windsagio

Lol what is wrong with you? Is it just curmudgeon schtick?


He's missing something in his life...

458 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:26:00pm

re: #444 Cato the Elder

No, my friend. This is where we part company.

If I remember aright, you are an atheist of Jewish heritage. NTTAWWT.

The crucial question is, why does "morality" exist at all?

There may be evolutionary reasons for not murdering your kin, but what, in the "selfish gene" theory, should ever have come up with the idea that one should not kill random strangers?

Where did the idea arise that the stranger (in Greek: χενος, zenos = both "stranger" and "guest") enjoys particular protection?

Why is there a prohibition against murder written in every human heart?

Why do Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, and every other "religion" except maybe $cientology (which commands that thou shalt do good only unto them that can pay) command respect for the weak and powerless?

There is no possible scientific explanation for this. We see the proof every day, in that to survive in this society, the very best thing you can do is oppress and exploit the weak and powerless for your own gain.

Because it is evolutionarily advantageous to be as we are. A stranger is a potential survival asset, or an enemy. It explains our dual nature.

We are as we are because it allows better long term survival of our genetic material. Raping and killing doesn't allow you to pass on your genes to carriers that will survive and thrive long enough to themselves reproduce.

If you don't see how we could have evolved to be as we are, then frankly, it's because you don't understand how evolution works.

459 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:28:03pm

re: #441 windsagio

I know all about that stuff, don't be so damn condescending.

name one person on this blog that has been actually threatened or hurt for saying something bad about Scientology, and I'll apologize to everybody.

How about we do an experiment?

Ask Charles to post a bunch of threads on the imbecility of Scientology and let's see what happens. Of course Charles will be the one hearing from the lawyers, and see strange cars parked down the road, but then we can discuss that too.

460 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:29:01pm

re: #459 Naso Tang

Covered this a bit downthread from that one, Charles is different than you, Cato, or I.

Its fairly unlikely that even he will get much attention from them, altho' I personally wouldn't risk it in his position.

461 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:29:49pm

re: #460 windsagio

Covered this a bit downthread from that one, Charles is different than you, Cato, or I.

Its fairly unlikely that even he will get much attention from them, altho' I personally wouldn't risk it in his position.

Did you miss my sarc?

462 windsagio  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:31:02pm

re: #461 Naso Tang

Apparently I did >>

463 researchok  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:33:27pm

re: #444 Cato the Elder

No, my friend. This is where we part company.

If I remember aright, you are an atheist of Jewish heritage. NTTAWWT.

The crucial question is, why does "morality" exist at all?

There may be evolutionary reasons for not murdering your kin, but what, in the "selfish gene" theory, should ever have come up with the idea that one should not kill random strangers?

Where did the idea arise that the stranger (in Greek: χενος, zenos = both "stranger" and "guest") enjoys particular protection?

Why is there a prohibition against murder written in every human heart?

Why do Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, and every other "religion" except maybe $cientology (which commands that thou shalt do good only unto them that can pay) command respect for the weak and powerless?

There is no possible scientific explanation for this. We see the proof every day, in that to survive in this society, the very best thing you can do is oppress and exploit the weak and powerless for your own gain.

Well, I'm going to go all hippie on you here, and leave you with a song by the Incredible String Band.


[Video]

These conversations are the best of LGF.

Onwards.

One does not need God- any god- to tell a society that murder is wrong. We can be moral without God. For society to survive and thrive, moral behavior can play a great role, with or without a religious cloak.

Religion distinguishes itself because it offers believers meaning. That is to say, your life means something beyond the hear and now, etc. Some people find that greatly comforting.

Let the beatings commence.

464 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:39:25pm

re: #453 Naso Tang

No, I didn't listen to the song. Would it have enlightened me?/

It might have tickled your ears.

465 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:40:40pm

re: #463 researchok

Let the beatings commence.

The beatings shall continue until you find God! ;^)

466 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:41:47pm

re: #458 Fozzie Bear

Because it is evolutionarily advantageous to be as we are. A stranger is a potential survival asset, or an enemy. It explains our dual nature.

We are as we are because it allows better long term survival of our genetic material. Raping and killing doesn't allow you to pass on your genes to carriers that will survive and thrive long enough to themselves reproduce.

If you don't see how we could have evolved to be as we are, then frankly, it's because you don't understand how evolution works.

Well, I'll be dipped in shit and fried!

467 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:42:08pm

re: #444 Cato the Elder

I thought you were joking, actually, because there is a Selfish Gene explanation for altruism-- it's one of the strongest Selfish Gene arguments, actually.

Basically, if you have a gene that says "Reward altruistic behavior", that gene benefits itself from expression, and benefits any gene that promotes altruistic behavior on its own.

It's a much longer explanation in pure genetics, but yeah.

Have you read Darwin's Dangerous Idea yet? I'm not sure he goes over it in detail there, but he at least references it.

468 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:43:30pm

re: #455 Liberal Classic

I'm not sure I buy this. After further reflection, I'm sure I don't. I'm generally skeptical when I hear something like "there is no possible scientific explanation" because usually, there is. To my understanding, neither evolutionary theory nor cognitive science rules out cooperative behavior.

It doesn't rule out wiping the neighboring tribe off the face of the earth, either.

So what does?

469 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:44:13pm

re: #454 Decatur Deb

Evolution--the cultural kind. Human groups that developed the same rough set of moral precepts generally functioned more effectively than those that did not. The "nots" tended to disappear.

Really.

You would think there would be very few "nots" by this time, then.

Read the news lately?

470 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:44:21pm

re: #468 Cato the Elder

It doesn't rule out wiping the neighboring tribe off the face of the earth, either.

So what does?

Certainly not God.

471 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:45:14pm

re: #463 researchok

Religion distinguishes itself because it offers believers meaning. That is to say, your life means something beyond the hear and now, etc.

That is no doubt a factor, and I wouldn't mind knowing that beyond here was something else (better, supposedly); but I think the more fundamental reason behind religion is that it is a mechanism for holding peoples together in the face of adversity (or other people and other gods).

The problem is that this is more beneficial to tribal societies than multicultural ones. Religion now, IMHO, always tries to revert us to tribalism and "them versus us", as witnessed by the many different uniforms they wear.

472 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:45:56pm

re: #464 Cato the Elder

It might have tickled your ears.

Maybe I'll go back then. I like that when it happens.

473 researchok  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:46:45pm

re: #465 Cato the Elder

The beatings shall continue until you find God! ;^)

Actually, I'm in the believer column.

The idea of not knowing for sure and deciding on faith inspires me. Faith offers me a kind of 'sureness' that is very different from any other 'sureness'.

474 Decatur Deb  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:51:17pm

re: #469 Cato the Elder

Really.

You would think there would be very few "nots" by this time, then.

Read the news lately?

Sorry--"nots" being groups that failed to develop useful moral inhibitions.

475 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:52:59pm

re: #472 Naso Tang

Maybe I'll go back then. I like that when it happens.

They are my favorite Brit-hippie group from the sixties and seventies.

Unfortunately they got caught up in $cientology when they were living in NY.

quod erat demonstrandum

476 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:53:52pm

re: #468 Cato the Elder

It doesn't rule out wiping the neighboring tribe off the face of the earth, either.

So what does?

Of course not. I did not make the claim that naturalist explanations of human behavior rule out predatory behavior. To the contrary, you suggested the only possible explanation for cooperative behavior was religion. I don't believe evolution, sociology, or economics bear this out.

477 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:56:07pm

re: #470 Fozzie Bear

Certainly not God.

Beg to differ.

478 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:57:43pm

re: #477 Cato the Elder

Beg to differ.

LOL

479 researchok  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 5:58:53pm

re: #477 Cato the Elder

Beg to differ.

In fact, the human condition has always had conflict as major influence, in a whole lot of ways, from benign regional competition to all out genocide.

That truth goes back a long, long way. It is in fact, a most 'natural' condition.

480 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 6:05:58pm

re: #464 Cato the Elder

It might have tickled your ears.

Well, I listened and it tickled my memories to be sure. Bongs and all that, and it was appropriate in the context of the discussion.

481 researchok  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 6:07:10pm

re: #479 researchok

And that is why the idea of God has had such a profound influence on human kind.

482 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 6:11:46pm

re: #481 researchok

And that is why the idea of God has had such a profound influence on human kind.

That sounds like a circular argument, or, Q.E.D, as Cato would say.

483 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 6:16:35pm

re: #480 Naso Tang

Well, I listened and it tickled my memories to be sure. Bongs and all that, and it was appropriate in the context of the discussion.

I think it's more than just bongs, my friend.

484 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 6:17:34pm

re: #483 Cato the Elder

I think it's more than just bongs, my friend.

I wasn't being dismissive. Blogs call for sound bites.

485 26charlie  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 6:19:38pm

There are hundreds of ways to answer this with alternate south park episodes that will make the muslim spokespeople uncomfortable to defend themselves in public. I expect to see that in the future, but think it would be useful if the writers could accept outside creative inputs - for this topic matter - to better address it fully.

486 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 6:25:06pm

re: #485 26charlie

There are hundreds of ways to answer this with alternate south park episodes that will make the muslim spokespeople uncomfortable to defend themselves in public. I expect to see that in the future, but think it would be useful if the writers could accept outside creative inputs - for this topic matter - to better address it fully.

I suspect that they had plenty of outside inputs, as they saw them. As to defending things in public, that is what most people do, if they have anything to defend, as opposed to react to.

But, welcome to LGF.

487 26charlie  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 6:44:08pm

re: #486 Naso Tang

Thats what they do, but they may be doing it less, when their most current message is for the public to give more consideration to their first amendment and other rights - that is, if they're intelligent enough to see the contradiction here..

Intelligent is the key word though. They could pretend not to recognize the facts - like the tea partiers do when claiming not to be racially prejudiced, while holding up signs depicting obama as a monkey and railing against their favorite stereotyped issue, of blacks lining up for a free welfare handout, complements of those poor, poor white taxpayers (the only True americans, etc.).

488 Sheepdogess  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 7:08:41pm

Tebow!
Tebow!
Tebow!

489 Opal  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 8:14:40pm

re: #5 Rightwingconspirator

Jon Stewart just did a humorous piece on this on the Daily Show. It will probably be available on Comedy Central's website tomorrow.

490 Locker  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 8:50:45pm

Just finished watching this episode on the Tivo. It was very, very bad. I wrote them a comment explaining my disappointment at their lack of courage. We have kids dying to defend us from this type of extremism and these cowards can't even be bothered to stand up to this garbage. Pathetic.

If you want to let them know how you feel on the issue you may do so here:

[Link: www.comedycentral.com...]

491 freetoken  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 9:11:23pm

re: #444 Cato the Elder

There is no possible scientific explanation for this.

Cato, Cato, Cato... how could you?

492 Jimmah  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 9:22:28pm

Yay South Park.

I suppose Comedy Central's repeated censoring of muhammed's appearances in recent episodes is understandable, but I doubt that the Islamic fundamentalist outrage machine would get itself fully engaged in a battle with SP. I think they would see that they'd win no popular sympathy and would just come in for more ridicule.

493 freetoken  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 9:55:14pm

re: #492 Jimmah

...but I doubt that the Islamic fundamentalist outrage machine would get itself fully engaged in a battle with SP. I think they would see that they'd win no popular sympathy and would just come in for more ridicule.

If they cared about increased ridicule and not getting sympathy in the first place, then the world wouldn't have to deal with these sort of problems.

494 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 10:46:52pm

re: #491 freetoken

Cato, Cato, Cato... how could you?

Prove the opposite.

I dare you.

495 freetoken  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 11:09:09pm

re: #494 Cato the Elder

Cato, Cato, Cato...

496 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 11:42:52pm

re: #495 freetoken

Cato, Cato, Cato...

Mooph. I see you've run out of reason.

497 fabitas  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:54:16am

The moment you know that an edgy/avant garde/break taboos kind of program has censored itself out of fear, you start losing respect for it. I won't be able to watch Southpark again without feeling that there is a limit to what they will say, and that their jokes are calculated for not to overpass it.
A shame.

498 Liet_Kynes  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:57:15am

re: #444 Cato the Elder


The crucial question is, why does "morality" exist at all?

There may be evolutionary reasons for not murdering your kin, but what, in the "selfish gene" theory, should ever have come up with the idea that one should not kill random strangers?

Where did the idea arise that the stranger (in Greek: χενος, zenos = both "stranger" and "guest") enjoys particular protection?

Why is there a prohibition against murder written in every human heart?

Why do Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, and every other "religion" except maybe $cientology (which commands that thou shalt do good only unto them that can pay) command respect for the weak and powerless?

There is no possible scientific explanation for this. We see the proof every day, in that to survive in this society, the very best thing you can do is oppress and exploit the weak and powerless for your own gain.

(now it is in the right spot-- again sorry for posting in the wrong topic)

Love reading this discussion. May I add a quick few thing before I run off for this evening?

1.) The problem with darwinistic evolutionary theory is that it necessitates that religion is an evolved human behavior but then goes on to hate religion as something backwards and out of place in the modern world. Two huge problems with this:

A.) If religion is an evolved behavior then it must be viewed as a GOOD THING.
B.) it is impossible to educate a person out of a behavior that is encoded in their genes. In fact to try to educate people to a non-religious stance would be an evolutionary step backwards.
C.) If as it is sometimes suggested that we have reached a point where we can stop evolving (can evolution be stopped??) and choose instead a path against our genes (that is to be non-religious) is that good thing or rather the influence of bad genes?

2.) May I suggest that there is a difference between ETHICS and MORALITY and that these terms should not be used interchangeably? Ethics is typically the scientific study of the natural law and man’s actions in society (human law) in the determination of right and wrong whereas morality allows for the influence of divine law and eternal law in the study of the determination of right and wrong.

3.) Selfish gene theory doesn’t explain the fact that when we look at the various commands to respect the week and powerless in the various religions (religions are not equal on this though) that said commands are not beneficial to the stronger party and in fact the stronger party gives of his own strength (goods, food stuffs, time, etc.) to the weaker. Such religious commands demand a totally unselfish activity. It cannot be said that there is a selfish reason to make the weaker productive members of society because the religious commands are not about productivity or utility of persons because the commands extend to the absolute useless people (often they are placed at first priority) – the lepers, the old and infirm, the aliens, those incapable of work, the murders, the toadies, etc.

499 Logician  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:50:17am

If it is true that companies, because of their responsibility for the safety of their employees, must be deemed to have a duty to submit to demands such as those on that web site, then those demands must be deemed to be threats of violence and their authors must be prosecuted.

If the demands made by the web site are deemed to be protected speech and not threats of violence, then companies cannot be deemed to have a duty to obey them in order to ensure the safety of their employees.

It's illogical to try to have it both ways, yet that appears to be the current situation.

500 Still not a hampster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:53:58am

Tadaima! (I'm back)

Hello all. I lost my password a couple years ago and no longer have the email I used to use either.

I was here from shortly after 9/11

Anyone left from back then (Charles excluded)?

....
On the southpark issue, my own theory is that we should defeat the Islamists with comedy.

When there is no place on the planet where you can say "Jihad" without a teenager snickering, then the end of all Islamist power will come within a couple decades.

Comedy is my nuclear bomb. We must protect it with our lives, and with their lives as well, if they force us.

Er and hi!

501 freetoken  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:16:10am

re: #500 Still not a hampster

お久しぶり
 ですね 
   。。。

502 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 5:03:32am

re: #498 Liet_Kynes

3.) Selfish gene theory doesn’t explain the fact that when we look at the various commands to respect the week and powerless in the various religions (religions are not equal on this though) that said commands are not beneficial to the stronger party and in fact the stronger party gives of his own strength (goods, food stuffs, time, etc.) to the weaker.

Yes it does, as I explained above. It is actually one of the most famous arguments of Selfish Gene theory. Read Darwin's Dangerous Idea.

503 Aziz Poonawalla  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 8:16:44am

* nervously steps up to the mike* (First comment on LGF ever)

It's not entirely clear if Comedy Central really censored it or not - it *may* have been brilliant satire in the episode itself to bleep out the Prophet's name, etc. It may be Parker/Stone's strategy to keep us guessing and keep asking the right questions. Brian says it's obvious that the censoring is satirical; but CC has caved before.

Also, it wasnt really a "muslim group" but two idiots with a website, a point made by numerous muslim bloggers (including myself here and here). These two are actually already persona non grata in mosques and are basically street personalities who are seeking publicity.

With the reveal that it was actually Santa Claus masquerading as the Prophet in the second part of the two-part episode, I have to conclude that my own discomfort with depictions of the Prophet aside, Parker and Stone are geniuses, plain and simple.

At any rate, the perception (deliberately cultivated by the idiots at RevolutionMuslim.com) that the entire muslim American community is up in arms about this, is a false and really harmful one. If CC really did censor the episode, they are even more pathetic than they appear already.

504 Jimmah  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 8:22:21am

re: #493 freetoken

If they cared about increased ridicule and not getting sympathy in the first place, then the world wouldn't have to deal with these sort of problems.

I'm pretty sure they do think strategically about where and when to fight their battles, in their efforts to create a special respect zone for their bullshit. An obscure Danish newspaper is one thing; SP is quite another altogether.

We've already seen this. A couple of years ago, SP's 'Cartoon Wars' parts one and two was broadcast with very little reaction from Islamic mentalists despite CC's fears.

505 Jimmah  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 8:36:15am

re: #503 azizhp


* nervously steps up to the mike* (First comment on LGF ever)

I've been saying for a while that this site would benefit from the addition of progressive muslims. Welcome to LGF!

Also, it wasnt really a "muslim group" but two idiots with a website, a point made by numerous muslim bloggers (including myself here and here). These two are actually already persona non grata in mosques and are basically street personalities who are seeking publicity.

Yep. They figured that wackos like Fox News would pick up on it and try to elevate them to the level of spokespersons for the entire ummah. The wackos on both sides feed off each other.

506 Aziz Poonawalla  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 8:41:32am

re: #505 jimmah

thanks, jimmah, for the kind welcome. I'll confess that I'm liberal, but also devoutly traditional - it's a hard thing to navigate at times and I have definitely screwed up in the past. The more identities you have, the harder it is to get the edges to line up cleanly.

507 Aziz Poonawalla  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 8:42:13am

re: #505 jimmah

Yep. They figured that wackos like Fox News would pick up on it and try to elevate them to the level of spokespersons for the entire ummah. The wackos on both sides feed off each other.

which is exactly what happened. Maybe the wackos are smarter than we are. (just feeling more cynical this week than usual, I guess).

508 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 9:19:42am
509 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 11:34:16am
510 Still not a hampster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 11:38:25am

;_; I misspelled hamster in my new handle

That's embarrassing

511 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:15:31pm
512 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:16:21pm
513 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:17:53pm
514 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:50:16pm
515 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 8:59:50pm

And with that, I bid you adieu.

516 [deleted]  Sat, Apr 24, 2010 2:00:13am
517 [deleted]  Sat, Apr 24, 2010 2:02:50am
518 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 24, 2010 8:24:23am

And another bigot suddenly shows up. Imagine my surprise.

519 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 24, 2010 11:10:07am

This is why I'm increasingly reluctant to post about radical Islam. There are far too many on the right wing these days who can't make the distinction between fanatical Islamists and every other Muslim, and will launch into rants at the drop of a hat about how evil Islam itself is, etc. etc., ad nauseam.

I won't put up with this crap at LGF. It drives off and intimidates decent people who want to discuss the issues without having extremists yell at them.

If you really feel the need to hang out with people who believe all Muslims are evil terrorists bent on destroying Western society, there are plenty of so-called "anti-jihad" and/or right wing blogs that have no problem with that.

520 SpikeEvans  Mon, Apr 26, 2010 5:11:55pm

I'm not a real big South Park fan. I've watched a few episodes and probably chuckled at a few jokes, but it never really hooked me in....so I have an idea of the humor that is used on the show.....and the humor does tend to hover between somewhat mildly offensive to pretty outrageous social commentary. That said.....I really couldn't care less that the episode was pulled. Folks can cry all they want about the freedom of speech or artistic expression or whatever....but, seriously.....I applaud Comedy Central's decision to protect their employees and not airing the episode. I think that just the 'idea' that South Park produced an episode that characterized Mohammad probably gets the point across that the scriptwriters intended, and they probably ended up capturing more viewers for future episodes in the process. I tend to think of this situation as a risky and bold marketing move....more than anything else.


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