Jonathan Kay: The Tea Party Movement Is Full of Conspiracy Theories

Politics • Views: 5,702

The National Post’s Jonathan Kay is not a liberal. He attended the Tea Party Convention in Nashville, Tennessee, and filed this report for Newsweek: Tea Party Movement Is Full of Conspiracy Theories.

(I know. I’ve only been trying to point this out for the past year.)

After I spent the weekend at the Tea Party National Convention in Nashville, Tenn., it has become clear to me that the movement is dominated by people whose vision of the government is conspiratorial and dangerously detached from reality. It’s more John Birch than John Adams. …

One of the most bizarre moments of the recent tea-party convention came when blogger Andrew Breitbart delivered a particularly vicious fulmination against the mainstream media, prompting everyone to get up, turn toward the media section at the back of the conference room, and scream, “USA! USA! USA!” But the tea partiers’ well-documented obsession with President Obama has hardly been diffused by their knack for finding new enemies. …

I consider myself a conservative and arrived at this conference as a paid-up, rank-and-file attendee, not one of the bemused New York Times types with a media pass. But I also happen to be writing a book for HarperCollins that focuses on 9/11 conspiracy theories, so I have a pretty good idea where the various screws and nuts can be found in the great toolbox of American political life.

Within a few hours in Nashville, I could tell that what I was hearing wasn’t just random rhetorical mortar fire being launched at Obama and his political allies: the salvos followed the established script of New World Order conspiracy theories, which have suffused the dubious right-wing fringes of American politics since the days of the John Birch Society.

This world view’s modern-day prophets include Texas radio host Alex Jones, whose documentary, The Obama Deception, claims Obama’s candidacy was a plot by the leaders of the New World Order to “con the American people into accepting global slavery”; Christian evangelist Pat Robertson; and the rightward strain of the aforementioned “9/11 Truth” movement. According to this dark vision, America’s 21st-century traumas signal the coming of a great political cataclysm, in which a false prophet such as Barack Obama will upend American sovereignty and render the country into a godless, one-world socialist dictatorship run by the United Nations from its offices in Manhattan.

Sure enough, in Nashville, Judge Roy Moore warned, among other things, of “a U.N. guard stationed in every house.” On the conference floor, it was taken for granted that Obama was seeking to destroy America’s place in the world and sell Israel out to the Arabs for some undefined nefarious purpose. The names Jeremiah Wright and William Ayers popped up all the time, the idea being that they were the real brains behind this presidency, and Obama himself was simply some sort of manchurian candidate. …

And then, of course, there is the double-whopper of all anti-Obama conspiracy theories, the “birther” claim that America’s president might actually be an illegal alien who’s constitutionally ineligible to occupy the White House. This point was made by birther extraordinaire and Christian warrior Joseph Farah, who told the crowd the circumstances of Obama’s birth were more mysterious than those of Jesus Christ. (Apparently comparing Obama to a messiah is only blasphemous if you’re doing so in a complimentary vein.) To applause, he declared, “My dream is that if Barack Obama seeks reelection in 2012 that he won’t be able to go to any city, any city, any town in America without seeing signs that ask, ‘Where’s the birth certificate?’”

Many of the tea-party organizers I spoke with at this conference described the event as a critical step in their ascendancy to the status of mainstream political movement. Yet with rare exceptions, such as blogger Breitbart, who was reportedly overheard protesting Farah’s birther propaganda, none of them seems to realize how off-putting the toxic fantasies being spewed from the podium were.

Read the whole thing…

Jump to bottom

726 comments
1 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:33:16pm

Dear me.

So is ShortShit.

2 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:34:13pm

Thank you for posting this, Charles. I read it earlier on today, was simultaneously amused and disturbed by the thoughts and fears espoused by Tea Parties. Hopefully, the MSM will stop slacking on these disturbed people and start doing their proper job on informing the sane members of American public about the reborn McCarthyism and Birchers that this "movement" rests on.

3 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:34:33pm

It's nice to see a fellow level headed conservative take a swipe at the kooks who attend these things.

4 jaunte  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:37:06pm
"Perhaps the most distressing part of all is that few media observers bothered to catalog these bizarre, conspiracist outbursts, and instead fixated on Sarah Palin's Saturday night keynote address. It is as if, in the current overheated political atmosphere, we all simply have come to expect that radicalized conservatives will behave like unhinged paranoiacs when they collect in the same room."


It's not healthy to get used to the crazy.

5 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:38:24pm

I wonder if Sara Palin may be asked to comment on this, now that she is another talking head on TV?

6 prairiefire  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:38:39pm

"Where the various screws and nuts can be found in the great toolbox of American political life" is a great line.

7 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:39:12pm

re: #4 jaunte

Carve that in stone.

8 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:41:12pm

The Tea Partiers: Chock full o' nuts!

/my apologies to the Chock Full O' Nuts coffee people

9 keloyd  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:41:27pm

Devil his due, Shep Smith on Fox News called the Birthers crazy...once. I'd cite this, but I can only find other nuts complaining about what he said, not the thing itself.

10 charlz  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:43:19pm

re: #5 Naso Tang

I wonder if Sara Palin may be asked to comment on this, now that she is another talking head on TV?

Why would she? She gets to paid $100K to speak to them.

11 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:45:34pm

re: #10 charlz

Why would she? She gets to paid $100K to speak to them.

Oh, I got an idea for a nontroversey. How much does she get paid per word????

12 freetoken  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:46:13pm

re: #11 Varek Raith

Oh, I got an idea for a nontroversey. How much does she get paid per word???

From her mouth, or written on her palm?

13 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:46:52pm

re: #11 Varek Raith

Oh, I got an idea for a nontroversey. How much does she get paid per word???

"I" should count double.

14 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:46:56pm

re: #12 freetoken

From her mouth, or written on her palm?

Both!

15 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:47:18pm
Sure enough, in Nashville, Judge Roy Moore warned, among other things, of "a U.N. guard stationed in every house." On the conference floor, it was taken for granted that Obama was seeking to destroy America's place in the world and sell Israel out to the Arabs for some undefined nefarious purpose. The names Jeremiah Wright and William Ayers popped up all the time, the idea being that they were the real brains behind this presidency, and Obama himself was simply some sort of manchurian candidate.

A software engineer from Clearwater, Fla., told me that Washington, D.C., liberals had engineered the financial crash so they could destroy the value of the U.S. dollar, pay off America's debts with worthless paper, and then create a new currency called the Amero that would be used in a newly created "North American Currency Union" with Canada and Mexico. I rolled my eyes at this one-off kook. But then, hours later, the conference organizers showed a movie to the meeting hall, Generation Zero, whose thesis was only slightly less bizarre: that the financial meltdown was the handiwork of superannuated flower children seeking to destroy capitalism.

This stuff has just become common on the right. Glenn Beck and Fox news feeds them this crap around the clock. Blogs and writers that were thoughtful and reasonable 12 months ago have turned into raving nutcase conspiracy lunatics. It was amazing to watch the metamorphosis take place.

16 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:47:26pm

re: #11 Varek Raith

$.10 a word works out to $100,000 on that drivel.

She gets $100,000 to speak.
She gets $200,000 to speak well

17 EastSider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:48:38pm

I'd like to ask a serious question to LGF readers:

How can sane, rational people successfully persuade individuals involved in the Tea Party Movement that there are massive and dangerous flaws with their beliefs and the tack they are taking?

The first inclination is to declare the members as beyond hope.

Then, maybe in person or online you've engaged with a few (they pop up here every now and then), and you bombard with facts and logic. This generally fails.

You then go back to your first inclination.

The issue is that ignoring and/or lambasting this group, while cathartic, doesn't solve any of the issues. They've become a loud minority that has (at the moderate end) helped jam up the legislative process, and (on the extreme end) threatened or actively performed violent acts.

Logic hasn't worked, ignoring them hasn't worked, and they're a dangerous (and growing?) group that has the potential to impact the path the country takes in the next 5-10 years.

How can they be shown the light?

18 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:49:25pm

re: #10 charlz

Why would she? She gets to paid $100K to speak to them.

My point is simply that it seems her association with them could turn out to be a big mistake if she really has eyes on 2012. There's a lot more kookiness that can happen between now and then.

19 darthstar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:49:27pm

Meh...tell me something I don't know.

Still, it's refreshing to know that the teabaggers are starting to get marginalized by the GOP. Maybe we'll get some candidates whose sole purpose isn't to be "the filibuster" vote in the Senate, and constructive bipartisanship can take place.

20 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:50:10pm

re: #17 EastSider

I've concluded, in my mind, that you just have to let them reach critical mass and implode.


...which may, or may not, happen.

21 Summer Seale  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:50:11pm

re: #17 EastSider

How can they be shown the light?

Forced consumption of Haggis and whisky.

That'll cure anythin' every time.

22 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:50:59pm

Keep it in context folks. How many registered GOP voters are there nation wide? How many "tea partiers" showed up to their grand convention?

The movement is purely populist. Give it 1-2 years and they'll be old news.

23 freetoken  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:51:02pm

re: #19 darthstar

Meh...tell me something I don't know.

Still, it's refreshing to know that the teabaggers are starting to get marginalized by the GOP.

You might want to inform the SC GOP.

24 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:51:18pm

re: #17 EastSider

My FIL fit that mold. We played Archie and Meathead for 40+ years. Nothing came of it.

25 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:51:46pm

re: #17 EastSider

There's nothing that can be done. We've tried it here with very little success. The only thing to do is mock them. They'll eventually feel pretty stupid when they come to their senses but there's not much that can be done to help them at this point.

26 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:52:34pm

re: #17 EastSider

The trick (i think) is just get them away from the group. Let the groupthink evaporate. Then just lay out the realities one at a time. Walk them through the logic. It does work quite often. Deprogramming one phrase at a time.

27 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:52:56pm

re: #17 EastSider


How can they be shown the light?

By making sure they lose, again and again.

28 Racer X  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:53:24pm

re: #17 EastSider

I'd like to ask a serious question to LGF readers:

How can sane, rational people successfully persuade individuals involved in the Tea Party Movement that there are massive and dangerous flaws with their beliefs and the tack they are taking?

The first inclination is to declare the members as beyond hope.

Then, maybe in person or online you've engaged with a few (they pop up here every now and then), and you bombard with facts and logic. This generally fails.

You then go back to your first inclination.

The issue is that ignoring and/or lambasting this group, while cathartic, doesn't solve any of the issues. They've become a loud minority that has (at the moderate end) helped jam up the legislative process, and (on the extreme end) threatened or actively performed violent acts.

Logic hasn't worked, ignoring them hasn't worked, and they're a dangerous (and growing?) group that has the potential to impact the path the country takes in the next 5-10 years.

How can they be shown the light?

Mockery.

Do not underestimate the power of mockery.

29 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:53:42pm

re: #25 Killgore Trout

Do not give up on them so fast. Seriously. Grass roots is really one conversation at a time.

30 EastSider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:53:46pm

re: #25 Killgore Trout

There's nothing that can be done. We've tried it here with very little success. The only thing to do is mock them. They'll eventually feel pretty stupid when they come to their senses but there's not much that can be done to help them at this point.

But mocking a derision seems to only strengthen their resolve. That we "don't get it."

The self assurance goes hand in hand with the paranoia. If any tea partiers read my question, they would be sure to sniff out a vast conspiracy hoping to strip them of power.

31 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:53:54pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

This stuff has just become common on the right. Glenn Beck and Fox news feeds them this crap around the clock. Blogs and writers that were thoughtful and reasonable 12 months ago have turned into raving nutcase conspiracy lunatics. It was amazing to watch the metamorphosis take place.

As it was similarly amazing (in a positive way) over the past 12 months to see the LGF metamorphosis from regurgitated right wing talking points to thoughtful and reasonable commentary that attracts a wide audience of differing political persuasions. Not all recent blog changes are for the worse....
;-)

32 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:55:09pm

re: #31 Surabaya Stew

As it was similarly amazing (in a positive way) over the past 12 months to see the LGF metamorphosis from regurgitated right wing talking points to thoughtful and reasonable commentary that attracts a wide audience of differing political persuasions. Not all recent blog changes are for the worse...
;-)

Mostly LGF changed registrants, not minds.

33 researchok  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:56:13pm

You would think concerned Americans would find a better way to register their discontent. Instead, they allow themselves to be led by lunatics.

It's true what they say- we get the government we deserve.

34 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:56:43pm

re: #19 darthstar

Meh...tell me something I don't know.

Still, it's refreshing to know that the teabaggers are starting to get marginalized by the GOP. Maybe we'll get some candidates whose sole purpose isn't to be "the filibuster" vote in the Senate, and constructive bipartisanship can take place.

Check the SC GOP.
Tea party has been mainstreamed into the party.

35 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:57:23pm

re: #30 EastSider

But mocking a derision seems to only strengthen their resolve. That we "don't get it."

The self assurance goes hand in hand with the paranoia. If any tea partiers read my question, they would be sure to sniff out a vast conspiracy hoping to strip them of power.

When they do eventually fade, mostly because the economy will stabilize, the die-hards will become more shrill. As the numbers go down, the volume might go up.

36 charlz  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:57:52pm

re: #18 Naso Tang

My point is simply that it seems her association with them could turn out to be a big mistake if she really has eyes on 2012. There's a lot more kookiness that can happen between now and then.

2012 is a long way off. Meanwhile, anybody who wants to organize a conference knows they can get national media attention with her as a speaker.

37 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:57:53pm

re: #31 Surabaya Stew

As it was similarly amazing (in a positive way) over the past 12 months to see the LGF metamorphosis from regurgitated right wing talking points to thoughtful and reasonable commentary that attracts a wide audience of differing political persuasions. Not all recent blog changes are for the worse...
;-)

that's one opinion...are you saying right wing talking points were an illusion of some sort?...conservative principles do not change or morph over time...only the people that talk about them do...the fact that there are more liberals posting here changes nothing in terms of conservatism

38 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:58:03pm

re: #33 researchok

You would think concerned Americans would find a better way to register their discontent. Instead, they allow themselves to be led by lunatics.

It's true what they say- we get the government we deserve.

Populist rage. That's what the tea party movement boils down to.

39 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:58:59pm

re: #31 Surabaya Stew

Some of us have been here for a number of years.

40 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:59:02pm

re: #35 Decatur Deb

Like the commie left during GWB's term. Loud, kooky, deranged.

41 EastSider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:59:24pm

re: #35 Decatur Deb

When they do eventually fade, mostly because the economy will stabilize, the die-hards will become more shrill. As the numbers go down, the volume might go up.

That sounds believable. Then they'd go back to pockets of *really* extreme groups (white nationals etc) as opposed to a groundswell movement.

The problem is that as their influence wanes the few that remain, while increasing in volume, may also become more dangerous and likely to act out violently.

42 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:59:32pm

re: #17 EastSider

I'd like to ask a serious question to LGF readers:

How can sane, rational people successfully persuade individuals involved in the Tea Party Movement that there are massive and dangerous flaws with their beliefs and the tack they are taking?

I've learned over the years to just leave well enough alone.

Confronting someone just makes them defensive and makes them dig their heels in that much more. The best way to handle someone who's a teabagger is just to let them believe what they want. They'll either come back around when they hit outrage fatigue, or they'll become the crazy uncle at the family reunion screaming about black helicopters and the New World Order that everyone politely ignores.

43 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 6:59:49pm

re: #38 Varek Raith

Populist rage. That's what the tea party movement boils down to.

more or less yes...they are drifting from traditional ideology to win votes...and they may do it and win it all...chew on that

44 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:00:26pm

re: #43 albusteve

more or less yes...they are drifting from traditional ideology to win votes...and they may do it and win it all...chew on that

I know...
:(

45 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:00:29pm

re: #32 Decatur Deb

Mostly LGF changed registrants, not minds.

This is quite the truth. Once people decide on a course of action, it's really difficult to change them. The extreme reactions expressed by former Lizards and alies to having Charles "change course" is sobering.

46 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:00:41pm

re: #40 Rightwingconspirator

Like the commie left during GWB's term. Loud, kooky, deranged.

people have a 15min memory

47 Digital Display  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:01:28pm

re: #31 Surabaya Stew

As it was similarly amazing (in a positive way) over the past 12 months to see the LGF metamorphosis from regurgitated right wing talking points to thoughtful and reasonable commentary that attracts a wide audience of differing political persuasions. Not all recent blog changes are for the worse...
;-)

It was a hard Birth friend...
I will always respect Charles for following his heart and not a political movement....
He is a straight shooter...
I like that

48 alexknyc  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:01:49pm

re: #33 researchok

You would think concerned Americans would find a better way to register their discontent. Instead, they allow themselves to be led by lunatics.

The teabaggers aren't concerned Americans-- they're the same wide-eyed crazy people they've always been. Now, they've just banded together.

Concerned Americans who aren't crazy can't even get invited to the table to register their discontent. The media (including many blogs) prefers to highlight the lunatics who, in a more sane age, would be biting the heads off chickens in a sideshow somewhere.

49 That's Sarah Palin's Science Advisor To You  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:02:02pm

The Tea Party Movement is not full of conspiracy theorists. They just want you to think it is.

50 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:02:11pm

re: #45 Surabaya Stew

This is quite the truth. Once people decide on a course of action, it's really difficult to change them. The extreme reactions expressed by former Lizards and alies to having Charles "change course" is sobering.

what do you mean a "course of action"?

51 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:02:49pm

re: #46 albusteve

Yeah, well I am a DNC 2000 survivor. I saw the violent crazed left in radio coordinated action. Cat and mouse with LAPD and the local merchants. Rock throwing masked cowards.

52 shiplord kirel  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:02:52pm

Conspiracy theory

This is Wikipedia's excellent and quite scholarly article on conspiracy theories as a social, political, and psychological phenomenon.

In the United States of the late 20th and early 21st centuries, conspiracy theories have become commonplace in mass media. This has contributed to conspiracism emerging as a cultural phenomenon and the possible replacement of democracy by conspiracy as the dominant paradigm of political action in the public mind.[2] According to anthropologists Todd Sanders and Harry G. West, "evidence suggests that a broad cross section of Americans today…gives credence to at least some conspiracy theories."[5] Belief in conspiracy theories has therefore become a topic of interest for sociologists, psychologists and experts in folklore.(emphasis added)

Conspiracism is defined as "A world view that centrally places conspiracy theories in the unfolding of history"

53 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:03:31pm

re: #49 That's Sarah Palin's Science Advisor To You

The Tea Party Movement is not full of conspiracy theorists. They just want you to think it is.

Hah!

/hears black helicopters behind him

54 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:03:40pm

re: #48 alexknyc

The teabaggers aren't concerned Americans-- they're the same wide-eyed crazy people they've always been. Now, they've just banded together.

Concerned Americans who aren't crazy can't even get invited to the table to register their discontent. The media (including many blogs) prefers to highlight the lunatics who, in a more sane age, would be biting the heads off chickens in a sideshow somewhere.

if tea baggers are not concerned Americans, who are?...liberals?...is that what you are implying?

55 EastSider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:03:50pm

re: #49 That's Sarah Palin's Science Advisor To You

The Tea Party Movement is not full of conspiracy theorists. They just want you to think it is.

Dale Gribble: "That's what THEY want you to think!"
Suit w/ earpiece: "Sir, we ARE they"
Dale Gribble: "Gah!"

56 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:04:06pm

re: #52 shiplord kirel

A natural consequence of a declining lifestyle and ratings baiting mas media.

57 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:04:09pm

re: #53 talon_262

Hah!

/hears black helicopters behind him

You can't hear black helicopters!
;)

58 alexknyc  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:04:50pm

re: #54 albusteve

if tea baggers are not concerned Americans, who are?...liberals?...is that what you are implying?

How is the choice limited to just teabaggers and liberals?

59 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:05:23pm

re: #37 albusteve

that's one opinion...are you saying right wing talking points were an illusion of some sort?...conservative principles do not change or morph over time...only the people that talk about them do...the fact that there are more liberals posting here changes nothing in terms of conservatism

Conservatism is good. Right wing talking points, not so much IMHO. I see lots of good (re: thinking) conservative thinking here, and I'm very happy about that. I don't see much thinking worthy of the name coming from right-wing or left-wing punditry these days. All of which makes LGF a haven from the rampant anti-intellectualism online.

60 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:05:33pm

re: #58 alexknyc

How is the choice limited to just teabaggers and liberals?

why are you asking me?...why don't you answer my question?

61 Summer Seale  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:05:36pm

re: #17 EastSider


How can they be shown the light?

Actually, my previous comment was pure sarcasm (obviously - though there is much to be said for the curing powers of haggis and whisky, naturally).

But I feel that your question merits a real response because I see it asked a lot around me.

The answer is unpretty: there is no way to show them the light.

The fact is that these people are "true believers". Many are creationists or deniers of various stripes and, put simply, you can't argue them with reasoned debate and logic. Facts don't enter into the equation either. The fact is that most of them openly say they will deny reality unless it fits their own version of the facts (a tactic we well understand from creationists by now).

If somebody is completely unwilling to change their minds on anything, no matter the facts presented to them, then there is no way that you, with words alone, can force them to re-think the issue.

The only actual way for them to change their minds is for them to have a revelation type of experience; an epiphany, if you will. I don't use these words lightly. For them to undertake such a dramatic shift in their life view requires them to have an equally dramatic shift in their view on life. Nothing else will truly cut it.

The only route is for them to become so disillusioned with some sort of process or other that they will become bitter and slowly mellow with age, but never quite leave their prejudices behind, or to have an experience which forces them to renounce everything they fundamentally believe in.

Either of these experiences are, for the most part, far beyond the power of debate and words. I know - I've tried, and tried, and tried. It helps that I know some creationists and global warming deniers, etc.... It has given me a fascinating view into their mindset and, yes, they will openly admit that if facts get in the way that ignoring them is the solution because the facts must then be wrong.

I'm not suggesting that they have to be ignored, but I am suggesting never to believe that you will ever change their minds, no matter what you say.

You may get lucky - it has happened a few times. But, quite frankly, it is a rare thing. How many times have we pointed out the fallacies in their arguments here only to receive the same arguments again and again after they had been answered tens of thousands of times? How many times have famous debaters answered the same arguments only to hear them time and time again as if they had never been answered at all?

These are not the responses of sane and rational people.

It's a good question you ask but I'm afraid the answer is just a very depressing one if you think about it too much.

62 Digital Display  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:05:46pm

re: #57 Varek Raith

You can't hear black helicopters!
;)

Crap..You can't buy a Black Helicopter these days!

63 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:05:49pm

re: #57 Varek Raith

You can't hear black helicopters!
;)

That's true...just look at Blue Thunder!

///

64 darthstar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:06:20pm

re: #49 That's Sarah Palin's Science Advisor To You

The Tea Party Movement is not full of conspiracy theorists. They just want you to think it is.

So it IS A CONSPIRACY...just not the conspiracy we thought it was. It's double-secret conspiracy...

65 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:06:54pm

re: #39 Naso Tang

Some of us have been here for a number of years.

Thank you for reminding me of that. I should really be more careful with making blanket assertions.

66 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:07:34pm

re: #62 HoosierHoops

Crap..You can't buy a Black Helicopter these days!

We Zionist overlords have a bumper sticker: My other car is a Black Helicopter.

67 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:08:44pm

Come on everybody, lets pin teabags to our shirts, wear powdered wigs, and march against the evil Kenyan Socialist who has come to strip us of our money and our freedom! (big time sarcasm)

68 alexknyc  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:08:58pm

re: #60 albusteve

why are you asking me?...why don't you answer my question?

I'm asking you because that seems to be what you're implying.

The state of American politics is not a duality of teabaggers and liberals. Some of us fall into neither category and we're the ones being ignored.

69 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:10:07pm

re: #50 albusteve

what do you mean a "course of action"?

Course of action, train of thought, following a meme; just a general statement that applies to anybody deciding to be set in their ways regarding anything. Its a very human reaction to decide not to change one's thinking; as evolution generally hasn't rewarded humans who constantly change their minds.

70 EastSider  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:10:12pm

re: #61 Summer

Thank you for an incredibly thoughtful, and (I fear) very accurate response.

71 Digital Display  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:11:29pm

re: #66 Alouette

We Zionist overlords have a bumper sticker: My other car is a Black Helicopter.

LOL
I have a very special request for you regarding the prayer list this month..
Kind Regards

72 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:11:35pm

Some amusing stuff:

T bag t shirts and stuff

73 Summer Seale  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:11:36pm

re: #70 EastSider

Thank you for an incredibly thoughtful, and (I fear) very accurate response.

Thanks. Not bad for a blonde, huh? =)

74 Decatur Deb  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:12:13pm

Much as I'd like to stay and wallow in rationality with the rest of you, I gotta eat.
'Nite, all.

75 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:14:45pm

re: #68 alexknyc

I'm asking you because that seems to be what you're implying.

The state of American politics is not a duality of teabaggers and liberals. Some of us fall into neither category and we're the ones being ignored.

beats me...you specifically picked out the TPs as being "not concerned Americans"...when frankly most Americans are not concerned in that they have no clue as to who Kos or Ron Paul is...there is plenty to spread around, and if you are in the middle somewhere you are certainly being ignored....until it's time to vote get used to it...the moderate people in this country get used, and they do it to themselves

76 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:16:20pm

re: #69 Surabaya Stew

Course of action, train of thought, following a meme; just a general statement that applies to anybody deciding to be set in their ways regarding anything. Its a very human reaction to decide not to change one's thinking; as evolution generally hasn't rewarded humans who constantly change their minds.

I'm a conservative memester...why should I change my thoughts?...to please who?

77 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:17:42pm

re: #49 That's Sarah Palin's Science Advisor To You

The Tea Party Movement is not full of conspiracy theorists. They just want you to think it is.

Are you related to That's Grand Lord On High Monckton to you? Not that I mind your humor or your opinions, it's just a bit of a coincidence, no?

78 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:18:08pm

I need to talk to somebody about what the costs are to running a retail web site. I intend to take my photography to retail online this year. Maybe the costs of having the credit card and money transacted by professionals while I just print and ship are practical. Maybe?!

Anyone in that biz or experienced with it? Nic is blue. Thanks!

79 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:19:05pm

re: #77 Surabaya Stew

I was wondering that too!

80 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:21:01pm

re: #69 Surabaya Stew

as evolution generally hasn't rewarded humans who constantly change their minds.

I don't know about that, but as to the other part, as the saying goes, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time, could be a bad meme.

81 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:21:15pm

:stamps widdle feet:

Wah wah wah! Stop saying teabagger! It's a filthy, perverted word for a disgusting, perverted sex act performed by degenerate scum.

Wah wah wah! You're all a bunch of immature little children getting cheap thrills from saying a naughty word! Wah!

/preemptive strike?

82 alexknyc  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:21:34pm

re: #75 albusteve

beats me...you specifically picked out the TPs as being "not concerned Americans"...when frankly most Americans are not concerned in that they have no clue as to who Kos or Ron Paul is...there is plenty to spread around, and if you are in the middle somewhere you are certainly being ignored...until it's time to vote get used to it...the moderate people in this country get used, and they do it to themselves

The convention seems to have been a hotbed of conspiracy theorists, birthers and others generally outside mainstream American political thought.

This seem to me to be somewhat different than actual conservatism.

As for me, I'm a social liberal and a fiscal and foreign policy conservative. Who speaks for me?

Not the teabaggers with their "back to the stone age" social agenda.

Not the liberals with their "how do we get the world to love us" foreign policy.

And certainly neither political party with their addiction to spending money we don't have.

83 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:21:52pm

re: #76 albusteve

I'm a conservative memester...why should I change my thoughts?...to please who?

And you shouldn't change for anybody except yourself. I'm happy with you being your conservative self. Nobody on LGF should have a problem with that. Thank you for holding my feet to the fire and making me better explain myself, that's what I love most about LGF!
:-)

84 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:22:25pm

re: #81 Slumbering Behemoth

:stamps widdle feet:

Wah wah wah! Stop saying teabagger! It's a filthy, perverted word for a disgusting, perverted sex act performed by degenerate scum.

Wah wah wah! You're all a bunch of immature little children getting cheap thrills from saying a naughty word! Wah!

/preemptive strike?

Wake up man you are dreaming about T Backs again, not Tea Bags.

85 Petero1818  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:22:33pm

re: #17 EastSider

Don't talk to them, talk to the GOP. Let your state and federal GOP know that if they allign themselves with or pander to these morons, that you and your like minded friends are gone. Its politics. Hope to god your numbers exceed theirs and start to pressure the hell out of your politicians and your party.

86 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:22:54pm

re: #81 Slumbering Behemoth

:stamps widdle feet:

Wah wah wah! Stop saying teabagger! It's a filthy, perverted word for a disgusting, perverted sex act performed by degenerate scum.

Wah wah wah! You're all a bunch of immature little children getting cheap thrills from saying a naughty word! Wah!

/preemptive strike?

I forget who was going off the deep end with that the other day...

87 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:23:11pm

re: #82 alexknyc

We are of a similar position. Indy, and proud. Frustrated often, but proud enough to say no to bad candidates from either side of the aisle.

88 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:23:30pm

re: #80 Naso Tang

I don't know about that, but as to the other part, as the saying goes, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time, could be a bad meme.

That's also the truth; humans who constantly screw up don't usually advance in the gene pool either.

89 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:23:34pm

The reason people embrace conspiracy theories is because they feel lied to. If they find new information that was witheld for ommited from school curriculums or debates then they will accept that as fact. Humans have a natural tendency to embrace the unknown and they hate being "lied" to.

I know this because I am a former climate denier. I live in a very liberal community and I got tired of having "global warming" shoved in my face. I did some research, read lots of right wing blogs, and thought I was Mr. Know It All. I heard about how Mars was warming so I automatically assumed that the scientists hid this information from me to get millions in research grants. Now I feel very foolish. I learned about Mars' dust storms which and how they can lead to a rise in temperature.

Take it from a former conspiracy theorist, they believe it because they feel lied to.

You have to present these long debunked arguments so that others will not dig them up and accept them simply because they are not mainstream.

90 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:24:05pm

re: #84 Naso Tang

Wait, what's a T Back?

91 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:24:49pm

re: #90 Slumbering Behemoth

Wait, what's a T Back?

If it's what I think it is.....

92 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:25:31pm

re: #86 talon_262

I forget who was going off the deep end with that the other day...

There's been more than one, I'm sure.

93 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:25:51pm

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Why are we debating this?

94 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:27:08pm

re: #93 MandyManners

I'm late to the party, what's being debated?

95 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:27:08pm

re: #88 Surabaya Stew

That's also the truth; humans who constantly screw up don't usually advance in the gene pool either.

I was being coy about mentioning one meme; namely solving any problem simply by reducing taxes. Think of the paradise we would have when we got to zero.

96 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:27:11pm

re: #93 MandyManners

It does beat everything on my sat TV at the moment...
Did you catch #82?

97 shiplord kirel  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:27:21pm

My purely anecdotal (but very extensive) experience is that the typical conspiracy believer is a person of normal or better intelligence but with a limited or very narrow education.
Some observations: There seem to be some very characteristic gaps in this group's general cultural knowledge as well. History, geography, and mathematics seem to be the areas of which they are most strikingly and consistently ignorant. I am still not sure what to make of this but I have seen this same pattern occur over and over.

I've mentioned the Moon hoax conspiracy believer I met who did not realize that there is more than one national military force in the world. This emerged from her response to my point that military forces all over the world could have tracked the Apollo missions and at least some of them would immediately have exposed a hoax. She thought this was impossible because they would all do as they were told. I said I was talking about foreign military forces. She had no idea what I meant by that and it took some more back and forth to figure out what the problem was: She literally believed that only the United States had military forces. I asked her if she had never heard of, say, the British army. She said, oh sure but that was way back in George Washington's time.
She had no idea when that was, btw, except that cars apparently had not been invented yet since they all rode horses. This person was a senior in college, a pre-med student in fact.

98 Vambo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:27:58pm

re: #86 talon_262

I forget who was going off the deep end with that the other day...

"BunnyTheif"

Teabagger = Negro! omg!

99 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:28:02pm

As a videogamer, I am angry that the teabaggers are hijacking the name of a well-practiced first-person-shooter sign of gaming supremacy.

100 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:28:05pm

re: #83 Surabaya Stew

And you shouldn't change for anybody except yourself. I'm happy with you being your conservative self. Nobody on LGF should have a problem with that. Thank you for holding my feet to the fire and making me better explain myself, that's what I love most about LGF!
:-)

I don't give a damn about the GOP and their implosion, other than the entertainment value...I'm not a republican or a fan of their politics...for me, conservatism is a lifestyle, a principle way of looking at things...I'll never change, least of all because of what some fringe whacko is saying...I don't identify with any of those people, pols, talking heads, whoever they are...I just stand by and watch, I really could care less

101 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:28:10pm

re: #90 Slumbering Behemoth

Wait, what's a T Back?

You must be shitting me..

102 Virginia Plain  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:28:19pm

All the right moves in all the wrong places, so yeah we're going down

103 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:28:23pm

re: #97 shiplord kirel

It's always surprising to me how many engineers are conspiracy theorists. Fits what you mean about narrow views, though.

104 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:28:34pm

re: #97 shiplord kirel

My purely anecdotal (but very extensive) experience is that the typical conspiracy believer is a person of normal or better intelligence but with a limited or very narrow education.
Some observations: There seem to be some very characteristic gaps in this group's general cultural knowledge as well. History, geography, and mathematics seem to be the areas of which they are most strikingly and consistently ignorant. I am still not sure what to make of this but I have seen this same pattern occur over and over.

I've mentioned the Moon hoax conspiracy believer I met who did not realize that there is more than one national military force in the world. This emerged from her response to my point that military forces all over the world could have tracked the Apollo missions and at least some of them would immediately have exposed a hoax. She thought this was impossible because they would all do as they were told. I said I was talking about foreign military forces. She had no idea what I meant by that and it took some more back and forth to figure out what the problem was: She literally believed that only the United States had military forces. I asked her if she had never heard of, say, the British army. She said, oh sure but that was way back in George Washington's time.
She had no idea when that was, btw, except that cars apparently had not been invented yet since they all rode horses. This person was a senior in college, a pre-med student in fact.

Just. Freaking. Unbelievable.

105 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:29:19pm

re: #101 Naso Tang

You must be shitting me..

Really, I thought SB of all people would know...
/:P

106 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:30:02pm

re: #97 shiplord kirel

Wow. Was that the medical school in Grenada?

107 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:30:30pm

re: #103 Obdicut

It's always surprising to me how many engineers are conspiracy theorists. Fits what you mean about narrow views, though.

Engineer is a very vague term. As someone who came to LGF through ScrewLooseChange.com, I will say that the more the engineer has actually been formally educated in things relating to what was investigated in 9/11 (e.g. buildings, fires, planes) the less likely they are to be Twoofing.

108 Virginia Plain  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:30:39pm

How do you reason with a conspiracy theorist? You can't. Here is Buzz Aldrin with the most appropriate response to a conspiracy theorist:

109 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:30:42pm

re: #103 Obdicut

It's always surprising to me how many engineers are conspiracy theorists. Fits what you mean about narrow views, though.

I'm always surprised why anybody else is surprised...people need to stop pretending

110 freetoken  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:31:41pm

re: #103 Obdicut

Especially as they get older. Strange phenomenon really.

111 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:32:24pm

re: #103 Obdicut

It's always surprising to me how many engineers are conspiracy theorists. Fits what you mean about narrow views, though.

I resemble that statement, and the other one too.

112 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:32:42pm

re: #101 Naso Tang

You must be shitting me..

No, I am not shitting you. In fact, I am not evacuating anything at the moment.

Urban Dictionary, here I come...

113 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:32:47pm

re: #110 freetoken

Especially as they get older. Strange phenomenon really.

That one too.

114 Summer Seale  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:33:00pm

re: #97 shiplord kirel

The question arises, however: did your explanation of other military forces tracking the Apollo mission actually then force her to re-think her entire ethos which supported her conspiratorial view?

115 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:33:22pm

re: #93 MandyManners

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Why are we debating this?


I dunno.
Let's lighten things up
Think before you speak...
Here are six reasons why you should think before you speak -
the last one is great!
Have you ever spoken and wished that you could
immediately take the words back...
or that you could crawl into a hole?
Here are the Testimonials of a few people who did.....

FIRST TESTIMONY:
I walked into a hair salon with my husband and three kids in tow and asked loudly, "How much do you charge for a shampoo and a bl*w j0b?"
I turned around and walked back out and never went back My husband didn't say a word...he knew better.

SECOND TESTIMONY:
I was at the golf store comparing different kinds of golf balls.
I was unhappy with the women's type I had been using. After browsing for several minutes, I was approached by one of the good-looking gentlemen who works at the store. He asked if he could help me. Without thinking, I looked at him and said, "I think I like playing with men's balls"

THIRD TESTIMONY:
My sister and I were at the mall and passed by a store that sold a variety of candy and nuts. As we were looking at the display case, the boy behind the counter asked if we needed any help. I replied, "No, I'm just looking at your nuts.." My sister started to laugh hysterically. The boy grinned, and I turned beet-red and walked away. To this day, my sister has never let me forget.

FOURTH TESTIMONY:
Have you ever asked your child a question too many times? My three-year-old son had a lot of problems with potty training and I was on him constantly. One day we stopped at Taco Bell for a quick lunch, in between errands. It was very busy, with a full dining room. While enjoying my taco,
I smelled something funny, so of course I checked my seven-month-old daughter, she was clean. Then I realized that Danny had not asked to go potty in a while. I asked him if he needed to go, and he said "No". I kept thinking "Oh Lord, that child has had an accident, and I don't have any clothes with me.." Then I said, "Danny, are you SURE you didn't have an accident?" "No," he replied. I just KNEW that he must have had an accident, because the smell was getting worse. Soooooo, I asked one more time, "Danny did you have an accident ? This time he jumped up, yanked down his pants, bent over, spread his cheeks and yelled "SEE MOM, IT'S JUST FARTS!!"
While 30 people nearly choked to death on their tacos laughing, he calmly pulled up his pants and sat down. An old couple made me feel better,
thanking me for the best laugh they'd ever had!

LAST BUT NOT LEAST TESTIMONY:
This had most of the state of Michigan laughing for 2 days and a very embarrassed female news anchor who will, in the future, likely think before she speaks. What happens when you predict snow but don't get any!
We had a female news anchor that, the day after it was supposed to have snowed and didn't, turned to the weatherman and asked:
"So Bob, where's that 8 inches you promised me last night?" Not only did he have to leave the set, but half the crew did too they were laughing so hard!

Now, didn't that feel good?
Pass it on to someone you know who needs a laugh
and remember
we all say things we don't really me

116 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:33:51pm

re: #17 EastSider

You can't reason people out of a notion that they were never reasoned into, most of the time.

I predict that the Tea Party movement will meet the fate of so many other populist movements: some band of enterprising political climbers will scrabble up to power on their shoulders, and them promptly dump them. Doubtless some influence of these days will linger, but the wave will crest and then recede.

"Talk conservative, vote liberal" is still the MO of a lot of national politicians.

117 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:33:54pm

how can people be this way?
how can folks thinks this stuff?
golly Andy!...I never thought people could be so loony!
surprise surprise surprise!

118 Digital Display  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:34:10pm

OMG.. I just got notified that Jesse H. Joined classmates.com on my Blackberry!!
I hated him..He always bragged about being a racist in School.. I used to beat the Holy hell out of him at the bus stop in Yountville..
Now he wants to contact us kids on Classmates.com? My left uppercut didn't convince that bitch of anything?
I must really suck..Cause I thought I hurt that boy in school..
Charles ..Can I say this? Classmates.com sucks...
Thanks

119 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:34:25pm

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but there was an excellent psych study done 2 or so years ago showing that believing in conspiracy theories is linked to the experience of powerlessness or helplessness:
This post over at scienceblogs gives the citation and gives a great rundown of how the experiments worked:

Control and security are vital parts of our psychological well-being and it goes without saying that losing them can feel depressing or scary. As such, people have strategies for trying to regain a sense control even if it's a tenuous one. Jennifer Whitson and Adam Galinsky from the University of Texas have found that one such strategy is to identify coherent and meaningful relationships between things we observe.

These patterns can help us to make sense of past events and predict future ones, affording us a degree of control over our fates, albeit an indirect one. We can't change the weather, for example, but if we can tell when it's going to rain, we can be prepared. At the more extreme end, conspiracy theories can help the bewildered to make sense of otherwise unconnected events. And explaining random events by invoking superstitions or higher beings can help to bring reality's many possibilities within one's understanding, if not under one's heel.

Whitson and Galinsky demonstrated the link between desiring control and seeing patterns through a set of experiments that used a variety of psychological tricks to induce feelings of insecurity among groups of volunteers. With these tricks, they managed to induce a number of different illusions - increasing the risk of seeing false images, making links between unrelated events, creating conspiracy theories and even accepting superstitious rituals. Superficially, all of these behaviours seem quite different but they all involve seeing patterns where none exist. They have a common theme and now, this study suggests that they have a common motive too

So, it might seem very common sense to say that teabaggers are drawn to conspiracy theories because they feel their lives are out of control and they lack power, but there's some good science that would back up the claim that in an uncertain economic climate like this one you'd get people feeling powerless and therefore also looking to conspiracy theories. Lot of overlap with conspiracists and the tea party's original and natural base, is what I'm saying.

120 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:34:59pm

re: #97 shiplord kirel

I think having a limited education is a problem but not in the same way as you do. We need to show people debunked theories and explain why they're debunked. You explained this with your moon conspiracy theory, it can also be seen in the 9/11 truth movement. They sincerely believe that jet fuel can't melt steel and that Building 7 collapsed because of explosives. These are nonsense theories but the lack of mainstream discussion is what makes these theories so appealing. It makes people feel smart.

121 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:35:12pm

Oh, like another word for "whale tail".

122 shiplord kirel  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:35:23pm

re: #103 Obdicut

It's always surprising to me how many engineers are conspiracy theorists. Fits what you mean about narrow views, though.

I don't think any profession is immune. If I had to distill the conspiracist nut fringe to a nut shell, I would say it results from inadequate knowledge of the scale and complexity of the human world, with ignorance of the natural world as an increasingly important addition.

123 Virginia Plain  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:35:59pm

re: #118 HoosierHoops

.
Charles ..Can I say this? Classmates.com sucks...
Thanks

Yeah, I know how you feel. There are just some people you don't want to contact again. I hope it doesn't happen to me. I hardly knew anyone in high school.

124 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:36:46pm

re: #119 iceweasel

wow!...no shit?
sorry

125 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:36:58pm

re: #119 iceweasel

That explains a great deal of strange behavior.

126 shiplord kirel  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:37:06pm

re: #114 Summer

The question arises, however: did your explanation of other military forces tracking the Apollo mission actually then force her to re-think her entire ethos which supported her conspiratorial view?

She said she would read some of the sources I suggested to her.

127 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:37:43pm

the question is...who are you going to vote for?...bwahaha!

128 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:37:56pm

re: #115 reine.de.tout

FIFTH TESTIMONY:

A man was outside, discussing guy stuff with his neighbor. His wife wanted him to come inside to do some chores, but he kept saying, "just a sec."

Finally she stormed over to him screaming NO MORE SECS! I'M NOT LETTING YOU HAVE ANY MORE SECS!

129 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:38:50pm

re: #127 albusteve

Its a two party system. You have to vote for one of them.

Or you can throw your vote away on a third party. Buhahaha!

130 Summer Seale  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:40:12pm

re: #126 shiplord kirel

I've had that response at times too, but the fact is that it almost never changes their minds.

Again: it does happen sometimes, it just happens to be exceedingly rare. But really I'm talking about true believers and not just the regular uninformed masses out there. I mean people who go to tea parties regularly, blog about their conspiracies, yell about them, and are confrontational about them.

131 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:41:01pm

re: #118 HoosierHoops

OMG.. I just got notified that Jesse H. Joined classmates.com on my Blackberry!!
I hated him..He always bragged about being a racist in School.. I used to beat the Holy hell out of him at the bus stop in Yountville..
Now he wants to contact us kids on Classmates.com? My left uppercut didn't convince that bitch of anything?
I must really suck..Cause I thought I hurt that boy in school..
Charles ..Can I say this? Classmates.com sucks...
Thanks

I'll say. I got expelled from high school exactly 7 years ago.

132 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:41:11pm

are Republicans here (are there any?) gonna vote for Huck or Palin or Bobby ' voodoo' Jindal?....will you not vote?, or suddenly support BO and his whacky neosocialist agenda?...really, the book is in on the GOP....choices!

133 freetoken  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:41:37pm

Dreamweaver is really a crappy piece of software.
Dreamweaver is a really crappy piece of software.
Dreamweaver is a piece of really crappy software.

Three choices, same truth.

134 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:41:44pm

re: #123 Virginia Plain

Yeah, I know how you feel. There are just some people you don't want to contact again. I hope it doesn't happen to me. I hardly knew anyone in high school.

Just a few weeks ago I received a get in touch email out of the blue from a classmate of 40+ years ago. A Yahoo email account. I replied twice but no further response.

I checked the school alumni address list and see that he is back in Tehran. Not good news I think.

135 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:41:49pm

re: #118 HoosierHoops

Maybe he wants to make amends, or thank you for knocking some sense into him. Then again, he could turn out to be a muscle-bound martial arts expert with a grudge.

136 keloyd  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:42:01pm

Shiplord Kirel - your post made my brain sad.

I agree, in my experience, engineers have more uneven educations and misfit personalities, making them a bit more susceptible. Henry Ford fit yall's description really well.

A few foreign grad student friends let me in on the fact that, in some pretty rough parts of the world, where all media is state owned and full of baloney, indulging conspiracy theories is kind of a sport, like we do with 'yo mama' jokes. We are occasionally shocked at some "Jews are behind 9/11" talk, but half the time, this attempt to connect all the dots is only a half serious thing to do while you sip tea and smoke the hookah after work instead of playing the NYT crossword puzzle. It's a little depressing that British Intelligence is considered more powerful and spooky than our CIA nowadays. They also go after freemasons with not a little zeal.

137 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:42:07pm

re: #129 Mosh

Its a two party system. You have to vote for one of them.

Or you can throw your vote away on a third party. Buhahaha!

I don't have to vote and I may not again in the natl elections...I refuse to compromise...what about you?

138 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:43:11pm

re: #133 freetoken

Dreamweaver is really a crappy piece of software.
Dreamweaver is a really crappy piece of software.
Dreamweaver is a piece of really crappy software.

Three choices, same truth.

Dreamweaver is better than Frontpage.
Dreamweaver is better than Frontpage.
Dreamweaver is better than Frontpage.

Don't tell me Dreamweaver sucks after I spent a whole bunch of money on Adobe CS4 Web Package.

139 Digital Display  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:43:12pm

re: #123 Virginia Plain

Yeah, I know how you feel. There are just some people you don't want to contact again. I hope it doesn't happen to me. I hardly knew anyone in high school.

LOL I totally understand..
I always hated that kid..Totally bigot..And now they want to be your friends at classmates.com after school.. Are you kidding me?

140 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:43:16pm

re: #133 freetoken

Why not just great WSYWIG like word? Why can all these super coders not do that?

141 lostlakehiker  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:43:40pm

re: #57 Varek Raith

You can't hear black helicopters!
;)

If I can hear the secret radio because my glasses frame picks it up, why can't I hear black helicopters? Just because I can't see them doesn't prove anything! Hello, they're black. No light reflects from black things. I know that much science.

/conspiracytheorist

142 shiplord kirel  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:43:46pm

re: #130 Summer

I've had that response at times too, but the fact is that it almost never changes their minds.

Again: it does happen sometimes, it just happens to be exceedingly rare. But really I'm talking about true believers and not just the regular uninformed masses out there. I mean people who go to tea parties regularly, blog about their conspiracies, yell about them, and are confrontational about them.

The moon hoax girl was more of a casual believer. I think you're right about the hard-core believers though, they desperately need to believe in their theories. This is really a mental health issue in many cases, but its usefullness to political axe-grinders and power-seekers probably keeps it from being fully addressed as such.

143 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:43:50pm

re: #132 albusteve

I'm a Republican and I campaigned vigorously for McCain. He acknowledges the dangers of climate change and proposes a solution.

Palin is tainted goods.
Huckabee is hated by conservatives for his loose use of pardons.
Jindal is holding out to 2016, 2020.

144 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:44:08pm

re: #118 HoosierHoops

OMG.. I just got notified that Jesse H. Joined classmates.com on my Blackberry!!
I hated him..He always bragged about being a racist in School.. I used to beat the Holy hell out of him at the bus stop in Yountville..
Now he wants to contact us kids on Classmates.com? My left uppercut didn't convince that bitch of anything?
I must really suck..Cause I thought I hurt that boy in school..
Charles ..Can I say this? Classmates.com sucks...
Thanks

oh my!...how planet shifting is that?

145 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:44:10pm

From the linked article..

It is as if, in the current overheated political atmosphere, we all simply have come to expect that radicalized conservatives will behave like unhinged paranoiacs when they collect in the same room.

Like in the comments at Hot Air?

146 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:45:29pm

re: #127 albusteve

the question is...who are you going to vote for?...bwahaha!

If y'all are smart, you'll vote for me!

147 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:45:57pm

I have no crazy stories to tell.
I will say this thread is one fun read!
LOL!
Keep on, keeping on!

(Hoopster, leave that poor fool to his own misery!)

148 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:46:01pm

re: #146 Slumbering Behemoth

If y'all are smart, you'll vote for me!

Ya r'lyeh!

149 Digital Display  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:46:35pm

re: #144 albusteve

oh my!...how planet shifting is that?


What do you mean?

150 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:46:47pm

re: #139 HoosierHoops

LOL I totally understand..
I always hated that kid..Totally bigot..And now they want to be your friends at classmates.com after school.. Are you kidding me?

grab your bible and have a sit down with him...it will purge your negative feelings and you will both feel better for it

151 Gus  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:47:10pm

re: #119 iceweasel

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but there was an excellent psych study done 2 or so years ago showing that believing in conspiracy theories is linked to the experience of powerlessness or helplessness:
This post over at scienceblogs gives the citation and gives a great rundown of how the experiments worked:

So, it might seem very common sense to say that teabaggers are drawn to conspiracy theories because they feel their lives are out of control and they lack power, but there's some good science that would back up the claim that in an uncertain economic climate like this one you'd get people feeling powerless and therefore also looking to conspiracy theories. Lot of overlap with conspiracists and the tea party's original and natural base, is what I'm saying.

Perhaps it is a vestige from early man and is retained in a primitive part of the brain. A survival instinct of sort to rationalize the irrational. It could be either a result of biological evolution or cultural evolution. The latter of which is developed through memes (Dennett) which can be conspiracies (i.e. birth certificate; liberal caused financial meltdown; UN government; etc.). These are in large part developed through memes which are visible on a daily basis in blogs and newstalk radio.

I say in large part with tongue somewhat firmly in cheek.

152 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:47:46pm

re: #132 albusteve

Paul Ryan may be a viable candidate.

153 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:48:00pm

re: #147 Floral Giraffe

I have no crazy stories to tell.
I will say this thread is one fun read!
LOL!
Keep on, keeping on!

(Hoopster, leave that poor fool to his own misery!)

(There is the possibility that the fool has zero memory matching yours. Perhaps the cruelest thing to do would be to make contact and make sure he knows?)

154 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:48:39pm

re: #146 Slumbering Behemoth

If y'all are smart, you'll vote for me!

FAIL and DESPAIR!....good campaign slogan!

155 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:48:56pm

re: #133 freetoken

Dreamweaver is really a crappy piece of software.
Dreamweaver is a really crappy piece of software.
Dreamweaver is a piece of really crappy software.

Three choices, same truth.

FrontPage was only marginally better, and Expression Web improves on FP, but I'm glad I don't use either of them anymore (since I use Joomla as the CMS or the websites I run).

156 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:49:09pm

re: #131 lazardo

I'll say. I got expelled from high school exactly 7 years ago.


Now what could you have done to make that happen? Methinks there is an interesting story to be told! Obviously since you're now commenting on LGF, High School was wasted on you anyway.....
:-D

157 Summer Seale  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:49:41pm

re: #142 shiplord kirel

The moon hoax girl was more of a casual believer. I think you're right about the hard-core believers though, they desperately need to believe in their theories. This is really a mental health issue in many cases, but its usefullness to political axe-grinders and power-seekers probably keeps it from being fully addressed as such.

Yea totally. And it works for all sides. I mean, the hardcore left who believed that Bush was literally the devil is in the same camp. You know, the kind who believed that Bush was going to overthrow the government with a military coup and burn the Constitution live on TV while he declares power by fiat.

There were leftists who made entire careers for eight years on this crap and were widely hailed as speakers of truth to power etc.... Many were extremely well educated and, I suppose, given to high degrees of rhetoric and polemics perhaps. But some of them likely believed this stuff and it showed.

Only, it did take a little longer for the crazies to come out in full force back then. The Teabaggers came out within months of Obama's election and have been far more visceral and threatening to the general population at large.

But whether it is from the right or the left, insanity on that level is just insanity. It's like talking to people in an asylum: nobody believes that a casual or even single heated debate with them is ever going to change the way they think. You usually need a lot more than that.

158 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:49:51pm

re: #149 HoosierHoops

What do you mean?

I mean it's one grain of sand on a beach full of dunes

159 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:50:07pm

re: #154 albusteve

FAIL and DESPAIR!...good campaign slogan!

You got it just a bit wrong. It's WOE and DESPAIR. And free sushi.

160 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:50:13pm

re: #139 HoosierHoops

I had no idea classmates.com was a helpful as Facebook. At bringing every unwelcome personality from your past into your present. :)

161 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:51:13pm

re: #159 Slumbering Behemoth

You got it just a bit wrong. It's WOE and DESPAIR. And free sushi.

I tried to think of that dude...it wouldn't come to me!....that's it!

162 Digital Display  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:51:31pm

re: #150 albusteve

grab your bible and have a sit down with him...it will purge your negative feelings and you will both feel better for it

Don't make me come over there...

163 charlz  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:52:24pm

re: #133 freetoken

Dreamweaver is a piece of really crappy software.

I think somebody is trying to update a theme. 8-)

164 jaunte  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:52:27pm

re: #157 Summer

Only, it did take a little longer for the crazies to come out in full force back then. The Teabaggers came out within months of Obama's election and have been far more visceral and threatening to the general population at large.


I think the possibility that another Clinton was going to reach the White House got a lot of them jazzed up early, and they just had to shift focus when Obama got the nomination.

165 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:52:42pm

re: #159 Slumbering Behemoth

You got it just a bit wrong. It's WOE and DESPAIR. And free sushi.

ha!...I'm liking it more and more...the party of WOE!...I'm stealing it bro, you wait

166 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:54:00pm

re: #156 Surabaya Stew

Now what could you have done to make that happen? Methinks there is an interesting story to be told! Obviously since you're now commenting on LGF, High School was wasted on you anyway...
:-D

Rich kid was feeling antsy so he shoved me about and pushed me into a table. Being the school wuss I came back at him with a steel fork.

Zero-tolerance violence policy in place, I was "officially withdrawn." Real hush job.

167 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:55:46pm

re: #155 talon_262

FrontPage was only marginally better, and Expression Web improves on FP, but I'm glad I don't use either of them anymore (since I use Joomla as the CMS or the websites I run).

I built my website using Frontpage and Expression Web, and Dreamweaver is much better.

The product that I used in most professional assignments was...wait for it...Visual Studio.

I also worked on one Ford contract where they used Dreamweaver MX. The graphic artists got Macs, but we humble back-end programmers were all on Windows machines. First Oracle and then upgraded to SQL Server.

168 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:56:17pm

re: #165 albusteve

ha!...I'm liking it more and more...the party of WOE!...I'm stealing it bro, you wait

It's yours for the taking, free of charge. I get to keep the Fhtagn, though.

169 Gus  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:56:56pm

re: #159 Slumbering Behemoth

You got it just a bit wrong. It's WOE and DESPAIR. And free sushi.

What's their position on Roe vs. Wade? /

170 Digital Display  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:57:05pm

re: #158 albusteve

I mean it's one grain of sand on a beach full of dunes

Not in my life...I don't care about the other trillion of grains in the universe..
I wasn't adopted till I was was 12 year old Steve...It's a documented fact.. I don't care for bigot bitches in this world..That's the Hoopster Steve
Regards

171 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:57:30pm

re: #168 Slumbering Behemoth

It's yours for the taking, free of charge. I get to keep the Fhtagn, though.

Zalgo for VP?

172 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:58:34pm

re: #169 Gus 802

What's their position on Roe vs. Wade? /

Woe vs Wade should be sent back to the State...the feds have no business in the abortion debate

173 philosophus invidius  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:59:40pm

Palin herself seemed to wink at these kooks when she talked about the "charismatic leader." I've watched enough Jack Van Impe to know what that means.

174 baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 7:59:57pm

Two Jamesfirecat free threads in a row! Is it my birthday?

175 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:00:27pm

re: #169 Gus 802

Safe. Legal. Mandatory.

re: #171 lazardo

No, Dagon.

176 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:00:43pm

I am a registered Republican but lately it's getting harder and harder to find viable candidates. I loved the idea of a McCain presidency but in the popular vote he lost in a landslide.

I liked Tim Pawlenty until he revealed his homophobia and support for ID creationism.

I liked Jindal until I found out about his stimulus hypocrisy and misuse of state helicopters.

Isn't there any candidate out there that supports the FairTax, is for weening people off the Big Three entitlements, Chicago school capitalism, abolishing the minimum wage, school choice, serious reaffirmation of gun rights, and a cap and trade system to combat climate change.

177 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:01:23pm

re: #176 Mosh

I am a registered Republican but lately it's getting harder and harder to find viable candidates. I loved the idea of a McCain presidency but in the popular vote he lost in a landslide.

I liked Tim Pawlenty until he revealed his homophobia and support for ID creationism.

I liked Jindal until I found out about his stimulus hypocrisy and misuse of state helicopters.

Isn't there any candidate out there that supports the FairTax, is for weening people off the Big Three entitlements, Chicago school capitalism, abolishing the minimum wage, school choice, serious reaffirmation of gun rights, and a cap and trade system to combat climate change.

What about Romney?

178 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:01:35pm

re: #174 baier

Two J**********t free threads in a row! Is it my birthday?

Now he is going to show up.

179 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:02:05pm

OT
I have ranted a bit about how electric cars are a bad idea, as in the "long tailpipe" . Exxon just ran a commercial about a fuel cell for a car that gets the hydrogen to use from gasoline, and separates the carbon. 80% less emissions. Similar or better fuel economy. It looked bulky, like about 12" thick and as big as the car floorpan.

This looks like a big step in reducing the transportation carbon footprint.
[Link: cleantech.com...]

180 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:02:08pm

re: #178 Alouette

Don't say his name 3 times...

181 freetoken  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:02:33pm

re: #138 Alouette

Ok. Dreamweaver is better than Frontpage.

doesn't say much for Frontpage

Dreamweaver has functionality out the wazoo... but the user interface is a disaster. A multidimensional disaster. It screams "made by committee, after the Christmas party".

182 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:02:40pm

re: #166 lazardo

Rich kid was feeling antsy so he shoved me about and pushed me into a table. Being the school wuss I came back at him with a steel fork.

Zero-tolerance violence policy in place, I was "officially withdrawn." Real hush job.

Love it! Good for you to show the elite f*ckers (the Philippines is just like Indonesia in this regard) that they can't always have their selfish ways. Sorry about the rich kid not getting thrown out though. My Grandfather was thrown out of Temple University after punching a teacher who insulted his lack of religious belief, so I while I can't applaud such actions, I can certainly sympathize with them!

183 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:05:20pm

I was born in a cross-fire hurricane
And I howled at my ma in the driving rain,
But it's all right now, in fact, it's a gas!
But it's all right. I'm Jumpin' Jack Flash,

I was raised by a toothless, bearded hag,
I was schooled with a strap right across my back,
But it's all right now, in fact, it's a gas!
But it's all right, I'm Jumpin' Jack Flash,
It's a Gas! Gas! Gas!

I was drowned, I was washed up and left for dead.
I fell down to my feet and I saw they bled.
I frowned at the crumbs of a crust of bread.
Yeah, yeah, yeah
I was crowned with a spike right thru my head.
But it's all right now, in fact, it's a gas!
But it's all right, I'm Jumpin' Jack Flash,
It's a Gas! Gas! Gas!

M Jagger

184 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:05:53pm

re: #177 lazardo

Romney's health care plan caused premiums in MT to skyrocket.
Link

185 freetoken  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:06:01pm

re: #140 Rightwingconspirator

Apple tried to do a WYSIWYG editor for web pages - that is what their iWeb application does. However, it is very limited and intended for those people who want a simple site to show off pictures, etc. I've used it, and what it does it does well, but it doesn't do much beyond helping one layout a very pretty page.

186 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:06:37pm

re: #184 Mosh

Romney's health care plan caused premiums in MT to skyrocket.
Link

yup so he sucks...next!

187 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:06:58pm

re: #181 freetoken

Frontpage is gone I think. MS made something else. Dreamweaver had the result after purchase of my hiring a web guy to update the work web site. I loved frontpage in the early days. WYSIWYG is the way for most of us mere mortals to work a web page. Not in raw code. That is a full time thing.

188 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:07:09pm

Rudi dressed in drag and had a girlfriend...next!

189 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:07:26pm

re: #177 lazardo

I also haven't seen him seriously address climate change.

190 Gus  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:07:29pm

re: #184 Mosh

Romney's health care plan caused premiums in MT to skyrocket.
Link

That would be MA. MT is Montana. ;)

191 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:07:59pm

Duncan Hunter went to China for BO...next!

192 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:08:29pm

re: #190 Gus 802

My bad.

193 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:09:03pm

re: #189 Mosh

I also haven't seen him seriously address climate change.

what's to address?...what should a politician say and then do (address) about it?

194 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:09:06pm
PORT-AU-PRINCE (Reuters) - A Haitian judge has decided to release 10 U.S. missionaries accused of kidnapping 33 children and trying to spirit them out of the earthquake- stricken country, a judicial source said on Wednesday.

The source said the missionaries, who have been in jail since they were stopped at Haiti's border with the Dominican Republic on January 29, could be released as early as Thursday.

"The order will be to release them," the source, who asked not to be named, told Reuters. The decision has not yet been made public.

195 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:09:07pm

re: #182 Surabaya Stew

Love it! Good for you to show the elite f*ckers (the Philippines is just like Indonesia in this regard) that they can't always have their selfish ways. Sorry about the rich kid not getting thrown out though. My Grandfather was thrown out of Temple University after punching a teacher who insulted his lack of religious belief, so I while I can't applaud such actions, I can certainly sympathize with them!

Not really. I effectively ruined any chance of me getting into a good college. After getting a GED and some community college in the States I ended up coming back here where I'm expected to get a degree that's hardly worth the paper it's printed on.

I shouldn't have stood up, and this is what I get.

196 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:09:23pm

re: #191 albusteve

Duncan Hunter went to China for BO...next!

And what a smart move for both of them that was!

197 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:09:51pm

re: #187 Rightwingconspirator

Frontpage is gone I think. MS made something else. Dreamweaver had the result after purchase of my hiring a web guy to update the work web site. I loved frontpage in the early days. WYSIWYG is the way for most of us mere mortals to work a web page. Not in raw code. That is a full time thing.

In Visual Studio, I always worked in code view. In Dreamweaver, I work in split view. When I used Frontpage/Expressions I always worked in WYSIWYG but when I opened up the code view in DW I almost had a heart attack.

198 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:10:02pm

Mark Sanford took a hike and forgot his compass...next!

199 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:10:22pm

re: #169 Gus 802

Actually, Gus, allow me to clarify my party's position. It is mandatory only in instances where it can be proven that it will not be born alive or will be unable to grow into a healthy, juicy, edible adult.

200 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:10:30pm

re: #193 albusteve

what's to address?...what should a politician say and then do (address) about it?

Whether or not they can or should do anything about a pressing issue, it's good politics to get out there and spraymark.

201 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:10:31pm

re: #189 Mosh

Huh. In my opinion the only way to go is leftward, only the Greens are more focused on running a crazed nutbag for President.

202 Digital Display  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:10:31pm

re: #195 lazardo

Not really. I effectively ruined any chance of me getting into a good college. After getting a GED and some community college in the States I ended up coming back here where I'm expected to get a degree that's hardly worth the paper it's printed on.

I shouldn't have stood up, and this is what I get.

You are an amazing artist...You will do great!

203 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:11:45pm

re: #200 The Sanity Inspector

Whether or not they can or should do anything about a pressing issue, it's good politics to get out there and spraymark.

go nuclear...that's what we can do and that's about all we can do, for now...oh yeah, we can build windmills on the prairie

204 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:12:23pm

re: #193 albusteve

A politician knows that businesses will not shift towards a climate conscious economy on their own. A cap and trade system is the best way to create a free market incentive to shift away from fossil fuels.

Our cap and trade plan cannot be a permit giveaway scheme like France's was. If that happens the system will be ripe with profiteering and could even lead to offsetting of carbon emissions.

205 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:12:26pm

re: #198 albusteve

If that is a pun on the "moral compass" thing, then good zing!

206 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:12:33pm

re: #185 freetoken
re: #197 Alouette

I do not understand the cause of those problems. Photoshop has preview. Word works in its very visible way. But not browser friendly output?
Either browsers are not really as good as they claim to be or web coding is harder than image edits like CS4.Which makes no sense to me.

207 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:12:59pm

Here is one explanation for why more people are spreading the CT's. The same people who have spread them to their family, friends, and neighbors (and anyone who would listen) have also predicted an assortment of other things which have come true, so over time they have gained some credibility with their captive audience. The rising price of gold in light of the huge deficits, the financial crisis from a banking system run amok, UN treaties encroaching into American sovereignty, American industry and jobs being sent to China.. They have been talking up these points along with the wacky CT's like airplane contrails spreading diseases, HIV being a government lab creation, warehouses to be used as makeshift prisons after Martial law is declared, I could go on and on. I've heard them all.

As some of these things do come true, it makes the more gullible people start to think maybe the rest of the stories their Bircher acquantance has been telling them about for so long could be true as well.

208 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:13:11pm

re: #195 lazardo

Not really. I effectively ruined any chance of me getting into a good college. After getting a GED and some community college in the States I ended up coming back here where I'm expected to get a degree that's hardly worth the paper it's printed on.

I shouldn't have stood up, and this is what I get.

there is room for you at Ft Willow, NM....call ahead

209 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:13:48pm

re: #205 Slumbering Behemoth

If that is a pun on the "moral compass" thing, then good zing!

good eye

210 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:13:48pm

re: #202 HoosierHoops

Probably if I went to college in the States.

Parents saved up a bit while they lived there (they didn't like Marcos that much) and the exchange rate meant they could get me the best here, as it were. Unfortunately, the only degrees here worth more than an excuse to charge out-of-state graduate rates are those in Overseas Worker jobs like nursing.

211 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:14:14pm

re: #195 lazardo

Not really. I effectively ruined any chance of me getting into a good college. After getting a GED and some community college in the States I ended up coming back here where I'm expected to get a degree that's hardly worth the paper it's printed on.

I shouldn't have stood up, and this is what I get.

Pish-tosh! Caravaggio killed a man; you can live down a jab with a fork.

212 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:14:23pm

re: #201 lazardo

I agree. The Green Party is rife with conspiracy theorists and nutburgers too.I'm not sure if the Repubs can get any loonier.

213 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:14:31pm

re: #187 Rightwingconspirator

Frontpage is gone I think. MS made something else. Dreamweaver had the result after purchase of my hiring a web guy to update the work web site. I loved frontpage in the early days. WYSIWYG is the way for most of us mere mortals to work a web page. Not in raw code. That is a full time thing.

BBEdit rules.

214 Irenicum  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:15:02pm

re: #115 reine.de.tout

You just made me cry I laughed so hard! That was great!

215 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:15:35pm

re: #195 lazardo

Not really. I effectively ruined any chance of me getting into a good college. After getting a GED and some community college in the States I ended up coming back here where I'm expected to get a degree that's hardly worth the paper it's printed on.

I shouldn't have stood up, and this is what I get.

Aw man, that's a really shitty story! One fight that you didn't start ruins your future academic life? I'm very sorry to hear this. From my personal experience, even in a Quaker high school where violence is absolutely prohibited by their theology, a fight initiated by a student won't lead to anything more than a week's suspension. Seems like your former HS is adept at hypocrisy for teaching you that standing up for yourself is a bad idea.

216 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:16:44pm

re: #213 Charles

Never heard of it. I'll look it up first thing.
Thank you!

217 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:16:57pm

re: #211 The Sanity Inspector

Pish-tosh! Caravaggio killed a man; you can live down a jab with a fork.

Back in the day, duels to the death were gentlemanly. D: Damn hippies.

218 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:17:14pm

re: #206 Rightwingconspirator

re: #197 Alouette

I do not understand the cause of those problems. Photoshop has preview. Word works in its very visible way. But not browser friendly output?
Either browsers are not really as good as they claim to be or web coding is harder than image edits like CS4.Which makes no sense to me.

Dreamwever and Frontpage/Expressions are HTML/CSS coding applications. Output looks different depending on the browser.

I am still having a problem with IE leaving about a 20px space in my template sidebars, because of the way IE renders DIV tags. I have checked that all my margins are zeroed out but I can't get those spaces to go away in IE. Looks normal in Firefox and Safari.

219 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:17:50pm

re: #215 Surabaya Stew

Aw man, that's a really shitty story! One fight that you didn't start ruins your future academic life? I'm very sorry to hear this. From my personal experience, even in a Quaker high school where violence is absolutely prohibited by their theology, a fight initiated by a student won't lead to anything more than a week's suspension. Seems like your former HS is adept at hypocrisy for teaching you that standing up for yourself is a bad idea.

Poshiest high school in the country. Parents found out I had a 150+ IQ, and figured it was the best place.

220 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:19:19pm

re: #213 Charles

BBEdit rules.

I am a Windows user, you can have my PC when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

Two of my kids use Macs. The renegades.

221 freetoken  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:19:20pm

re: #206 Rightwingconspirator

Well, we are really talking about two different issues:

1. Dreamweaver as a software application, of which my chief heartache is the incoherent inconsistencies in the UI.

2. The World Wide Web and browsers in all their glorious idiosyncrasies, of which there are numerous.

It will only get worse with HTML 5 and CSS 3. One would hope that life would get better as more vendors agree to satisfy a published standard, but I suspect, strongly, that the exploding set of capabilities will find us mourning the mess we are making for ourselves.

222 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:19:27pm

re: #204 Mosh

A politician knows that businesses will not shift towards a climate conscious economy on their own. A cap and trade system is the best way to create a free market incentive to shift away from fossil fuels.

Our cap and trade plan cannot be a permit giveaway scheme like France's was. If that happens the system will be ripe with profiteering and could even lead to offsetting of carbon emissions.

That's exactly what cap and trade is. At least, as far as I understand it. When one party reaches it's emission cap, it buys units of emission permits from other parties that operate below the cap.

223 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:21:35pm

re: #222 Slumbering Behemoth

In order for cap and trade to be successful companies should have to buy their permits at auction instead of having them awarded to major fossil fuel companies for free.

224 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:22:03pm

re: #218 Alouette

Now that I understand. Browser compatibility. I used to open a couple and just tinker away until a compromise was reached. But web 2.0 just gets thick as hell. For example-To protect my work, my nascent website of photography will be all flash, not jpeg. That knocks my images out of Ipad/Ipod. Damn. But I need certain flash features. Like protecting my property.

225 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:22:27pm

re: #195 lazardo
I was kicked out of High School in April of Senior Year. Exceeded the maximum number of demerits, mostly all for ditching classes. I managed to weasel back into school sorta so I could get the diploma but it did totally f up the end of senior year.

226 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:23:18pm

re: #217 lazardo

Back in the day, duels to the death were gentlemanly. D: Damn hippies.

come to NM...we'll pass you off as an Hispano...get you a chopper

227 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:23:30pm

re: #9 keloyd

Devil his due, Shep Smith on Fox News called the Birthers crazy...once. I'd cite this, but I can only find other nuts complaining about what he said, not the thing itself.

Shep Smith. I have more respect for him than everyone else on Fox put together

"This is America, WE DO NOT F***ING TORTURE!"

228 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:23:58pm

re: #226 albusteve

come to NM...we'll pass you off as an Hispano...get you a chopper

Original Harley. q; West Coast Choppers seem overrated.

229 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:24:16pm

re: #40 Rightwingconspirator

Like the commie left during GWB's term. Loud, kooky, deranged.

And hopefully just as powerless....

230 stevemcg  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:24:19pm

re: #138 Alouette

Dreamweaver is better than Frontpage.
Dreamweaver is better than Frontpage.
Dreamweaver is better than Frontpage.

Don't tell me Dreamweaver sucks after I spent a whole bunch of money on Adobe CS4 Web Package.

I'm using Microsoft Expression Web 3. I'm probably missing out on something because so far, I haven't come across anything I can't do.

231 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:25:16pm

re: #227 jamesfirecat

Shep Smith. I have more respect for him than everyone else on Fox put together

"This is America, WE DO NOT F***ING TORTURE!"

what's torture?...your definition or the SCs?...

232 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:25:37pm

re: #229 jamesfirecat

Why do you think that the opposition (or the minority) always has a more vocal pulpit than the majority?

233 stevemcg  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:25:58pm

re: #229 jamesfirecat

And hopefully just as powerless...

I don't think the loony left of the last decade was a big (or as loony) as the tea party movement.

234 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:26:12pm

re: #228 lazardo

Original Harley. q; West Coast Choppers seem overrated.

maybe Navajo

235 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:26:27pm

re: #221 freetoken

re: #213 Charles

I see BBedit is MAC. Uh, I'm a PC guy for now.
Yeah I know. I'm hopeless.

236 freetoken  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:27:18pm

re: #224 Rightwingconspirator

Sorry, but it's not possible to "protect" an image you are sending to a person on their own computer, in a browser. Using Flash just makes it less obvious on how to steal the image.

237 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:27:31pm

re: #22 TampaKnight

Keep it in context folks. How many registered GOP voters are there nation wide? How many "tea partiers" showed up to their grand convention?

The movement is purely populist. Give it 1-2 years and they'll be old news.

It doesn't cost money to be a registered GOP voter, does it?

238 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:27:33pm

re: #234 albusteve

maybe Navajo

the Navajo and Pueblo got some bad ass bikes out here...they know how to ride the range

239 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:28:12pm

re: #233 stevemcg

The moonbats called for GWB to be arrested for allowing 9/11 to happen and for waging an "illegal war" in Iraq.

That's just as crazy as saying Obama is a Kenyan Muslim who has come to bankrupt the Treasury.

240 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:28:14pm

re: #223 Mosh

In order for cap and trade to be successful companies should have to buy their permits at auction instead of having them awarded to major fossil fuel companies for free.

Cap and trade won't work. It'll ruin our productivity and the money sent oversea will be stolen by the UN and other corrupt agencies.

241 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:28:30pm

re: #219 lazardo

Poshiest high school in the country. Parents found out I had a 150+ IQ, and figured it was the best place.

Checked out the site, it sure does seem like a "good school". What a vibe it gave off to this private school survivor; J.D. Salinger would do a better job at eviscerating it than I, but it sure does seem phony and crumby at the same time!

BTW- Am not surprised at your IQ; all Lizards are required to be either MENSA or academic misfits....
:-D

242 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:28:42pm

re: #240 Dark_Falcon

Cap and trade won't work. It'll ruin our productivity and the money sent oversea will be stolen by the UN and other corrupt agencies.

what?....unPossible!

243 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:29:02pm

re: #237 jamesfirecat

It doesn't cost money to be a registered GOP voter, does it?

Why would it cost money?

244 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:29:35pm

re: #239 Mosh

The moonbats called for GWB to be arrested for allowing 9/11 to happen and for waging an "illegal war" in Iraq.

That's just as crazy as saying Obama is a Kenyan Muslim who has come to bankrupt the Treasury.

Good point. Both theories are equally loony.

245 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:29:41pm

re: #243 Mosh

Why would it cost money?

it costs money to get fucked

246 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:30:00pm

Jonathan Kay
Added to the List of RINO Traitors.
10 Feb, 2009

247 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:30:44pm

re: #240 Dark_Falcon

Cap and trade hasn't ruined Europe's economy or sent millions of its jobs to the third world.

248 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:30:52pm

re: #233 stevemcg

I don't think the loony left of the last decade was a big (or as loony) as the tea party movement.

Yeah I know, I'm saying that I hope the tea party becomes as pathetic and powerless as the American Communist party...

249 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:31:44pm

re: #243 Mosh

Why would it cost money?

I'm saying it's a bad to compare how many registered GOP people there are and how many people showed up at the Tea Party Convention, because didn't the convention cost money to get in?

250 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:32:06pm

re: #245 albusteve

That comment is obnoxious, illogical, and misleading. You're getting f**ked one way or the other.

251 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:32:18pm

re: #248 jamesfirecat

Yeah I know, I'm saying that I hope the tea party becomes as pathetic and powerless as the American Communist party...

Wait a second... the ACP is a time honored tradition in this country.

252 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:32:20pm

re: #247 Mosh

Cap and trade hasn't ruined Europe's economy or sent millions of its jobs to the third world.

nor has it slowed down CO2 emissions...so what's the point?

253 stevemcg  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:32:21pm

re: #239 Mosh

The moonbats called for GWB to be arrested for allowing 9/11 to happen and for waging an "illegal war" in Iraq.

That's just as crazy as saying Obama is a Kenyan Muslim who has come to bankrupt the Treasury.

I don't think that's quite as crazy as the Teabaggers. The baggers have more themes running than just impeaching W.

254 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:32:43pm

re: #230 stevemcg

I may give that a shot. Or just hire the job out again.

re: #236 freetoken
Well it seems to be like a house. No way to keep the real pro burglar out, but you can deter the average thief. Jpeg/gif just yells "steal me" I'll use a watermark too. Exactly how to go about all this is what I am learning. I just have limited experience. When I re did my work site my guy used PHP rather than straight HTML for the overall language.

255 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:32:52pm

re: #191 albusteve

Duncan Hunter went to China for BO...next!

Don't you mean Jon Huntsman?

Personally, I don't blame the guy for getting the hell out of dodge. He's fluent in Mandarin Chinese and Taiwanese Hokkien, which puts him to very good use overseas. It also removes him from all this teabagger nonsense, since he can just shrug and say he was abroad at the time and wasn't in a position to get involved.

Smart move all around for him. He's burnishing his foreign policy credentials and staying out of the current GOP circular firing squad.

256 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:32:55pm

re: #231 albusteve

what's torture?...your definition or the SCs?...

SCs.

But the point still stand the "oh but look it works so maybe it isn't so bad...." argument makes me want "angry with rage" for lack of a better phrase.

257 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:33:07pm

re: #250 Mosh

That comment is obnoxious, illogical, and misleading. You're getting f**ked one way or the other.

thanks, I knew that

258 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:33:12pm

re: #247 Mosh

Cap and trade hasn't ruined Europe's economy or sent millions of its jobs to the third world.

They've used fraud to sidestep some of its worst effects and they haven't really tried to cut the carbon levels yet. When they do, I sure their targets will be greatly exceeded.

259 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:33:26pm

re: #249 jamesfirecat

Yes it did and that pissed of the Tea Party's base. They thought their "populist" movement was being highjacked by "establishment" neocon Republicans.

260 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:33:27pm

re: #240 Dark_Falcon

Hey DF. Cliffster and I were talking smack behind your back earlier this evening. Just so you know. :)

261 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:34:31pm

re: #251 Walter L. Newton

Wait a second... the ACP is a time honored tradition in this country.

Walter, there is a little mustard on your chin...how was dinner?

262 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:34:35pm

re: #224 Rightwingconspirator

To protect my work, my nascent website of photography will be all flash, not jpeg.

People can swipe any image you display at the site if by no other means than the screenprint. And Windows 7 makes it easy by letting you just make a box around anything on the screen and click a button to save it as a JPG. If you want to protect photographs, I think you need a watermark or something like that.

263 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:34:47pm

re: #227 jamesfirecat

Shep Smith. I have more respect for him than everyone else on Fox put together.

Shep is the only talking head on Fox that's worth a damn. I've liked him ever since his Katrina meltdowns, and watching him blow his top over torture, make fun of Glenn Beck, and criticize Pat Robertson has been a thing of beauty.

264 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:34:56pm

re: #259 Mosh

Yes it did and that pissed of the Tea Party's base. They thought their "populist" movement was being highjacked by "establishment" neocon Republicans.

Why would they think that, its not like the Republican VP gave a big speech or something....

265 palomino  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:35:01pm

Will Republicans distance themselves from this craziness? Or just cynically exploit it to get back into power?

My bet is on the latter, but not because elephants are worse than donkeys. It's just much easier to latch onto this populist rage than to make serious adjustments to persuade people to put your party back into power.

And since getting back in power after the big defeats of 2006-2008 is the only goal, the GOP will spinelessly jump into bed with the tea partiers.

266 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:35:25pm

re: #230 stevemcg

I'm using Microsoft Expression Web 3. I'm probably missing out on something because so far, I haven't come across anything I can't do.

I created all my site templates in MS Expressions, in GUI mode. When I updated them, I looked at the code that MS inserted. Gah.

What. A. Freaking. Mess.

It was my own fault for being lazy and using the Expressions Web rollovers instead of coding my own rollovers.

267 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:35:33pm

re: #258 Dark_Falcon

What do you think would be the best way to combat climate change?

268 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:36:16pm

re: #255 Lidane

Don't you mean Jon Huntsman?

Personally, I don't blame the guy for getting the hell out of dodge. He's fluent in Mandarin Chinese and Taiwanese Hokkien, which puts him to very good use overseas. It also removes him from all this teabagger nonsense, since he can just shrug and say he was abroad at the time and wasn't in a position to get involved.

Smart move all around for him. He's burnishing his foreign policy credentials and staying out of the current GOP circular firing squad.

And also smart for Obama, since appointing Hustsman removes him from any 2012 competition. Plus it removes the GOP of a rare non-lunatic, so it makes the Dems seem better by default.

269 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:36:20pm

re: #256 jamesfirecat

SCs.

But the point still stand the "oh but look it works so maybe it isn't so bad..." argument makes me want "angry with rage" for lack of a better phrase.

you got a torture boo boo?...call your mommy, she fix it....meanwhile get out of the way

270 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:37:11pm

re: #269 albusteve

you got a torture boo boo?...call your mommy, she fix it...meanwhile get out of the way

Get of the way while we do "what" exactly?

What do you consider to be "not torture" I might agree with you...

271 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:37:21pm

re: #262 Mich-again

Oh yes that too. Watermarking and limiting the resolution for most of the images. I'll have a couple up big and fancy for the wow factor. There are some really good photographers site out there. They protect the work and present it beautifully.

272 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:37:38pm

re: #267 Mosh

What do you think would be the best way to combat climate change?

I prefer my 12ga...for that close up heat wave...kill that mofo

273 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:38:32pm

re: #260 Slumbering Behemoth

Hey DF. Cliffster and I were talking smack behind your back earlier this evening. Just so you know. :)

What were you saying?

274 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:39:07pm

re: #261 albusteve

Walter, there is a little mustard on your chin...how was dinner?

Fine... and then we all watched a episode of "Dollhouse" on DVD.

275 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:39:19pm

re: #270 jamesfirecat

Get of the way while we do "what" exactly?

What do you consider to be "not torture" I might agree with you...

while somebody tries to prosecute the war on terror...I consider waterboarding to be "not torture"

276 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:40:12pm

re: #273 Dark_Falcon

What were you saying?

It was conversation about dinging. Cliffster announced his policy was to downding everything you say. It was an affectionate comment.
Unless SB is talking about some other smack-talkin that I missed...

277 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:40:21pm

re: #274 Walter L. Newton

Fine... and then we all watched a episode of "Dollhouse" on DVD.

look out bro...you are becoming a.....family man!

278 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:40:22pm

re: #272 albusteve

I almost gave you a downding because you gave a ridiculous answer to a very serious question.

279 freetoken  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:40:25pm

re: #254 Rightwingconspirator

PHP ... oh goody, another language for you to learn!

Did the person you hire really write PHP code, or did he just add the ".php" extension to page source?

In any case, good luck. I'm not sure our collective productivity is being enhanced anymore with all these tools, K.I.S.S. and all that...

I've been looking at the Wordpress stuff - impressive that such capability is "free", but other than changing the CSS it looks like too much work to make modifications.

280 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:40:26pm

re: #267 Mosh

What do you think would be the best way to combat climate change?

Greater use of nuclear power, hybrid vehicles, and clean coal. I'm not an enthusiast for schemes as intrusive as C&T and the fact that the UN is involed is a major minus to me, because I think the UN is rotten to the core.

281 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:40:30pm

re: #262 Mich-again

People can swipe any image you display at the site if by no other means than the screenprint. And Windows 7 makes it easy by letting you just make a box around anything on the screen and click a button to save it as a JPG. If you want to protect photographs, I think you need a watermark or something like that.

Some people are so stupid that they don't even right-click to download images, they just hotlink.

I have pwn3d many idiots that way. (this is the original graphic the idiot hotlinked)

282 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:41:17pm

re: #276 iceweasel

It was conversation about dinging. Cliffster announced his policy was to downding everything you say. It was an affectionate comment.
Unless SB is talking about some other smack-talkin that I missed...

Thanks for the info, ice. How are you tonight.

284 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:41:40pm

re: #278 Mosh

I almost gave you a downding because you gave a ridiculous answer to a very serious question.

Is that supposed to be some kind of threat?
What exactly do you think the "ding score" is worth?

285 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:41:46pm

re: #278 Mosh

I almost gave you a downding because you gave a ridiculous answer to a very serious question.

please do...you'll never know how much I don't give a shit...do it twice if it makes you feel important

286 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:42:28pm

re: #268 Surabaya Stew

And also smart for Obama, since appointing Hustsman removes him from any 2012 competition. Plus it removes the GOP of a rare non-lunatic, so it makes the Dems seem better by default.

Well, that too, but I have a sense that Huntsman looked at the GOP during the 2008 campaign, saw the craziness that was starting to take over, and decided that getting out of the way for a few years was a good idea. I wouldn't be surprised if he ran in 2016, to be honest.

Sure, it was a shrewd move by Obama, since the popular, non-loony GOP governor from Utah is now overseas doing diplomatic work for the US, but it's not like Huntsman loses much by all this. He can claim service to his country, he can put his language skills to good use, he gets foreign policy cred with respect to China, which is *huge*, and he stays out of the teabagger fray.

It's win-win all around for both Huntsman and Obama.

287 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:43:07pm

re: #281 Alouette

Some people are so stupid that they don't even right-click to download images, they just hotlink.

I have pwn3d many idiots that way. (this is the original graphic the idiot hotlinked)

Joseph Ducreux, the original hustler.

Because back in the 18th century, pimping was easy.

288 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:43:11pm

hey everybody!
Mosh downdinged albusteve!

289 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:43:41pm

re: #275 albusteve

while somebody tries to prosecute the war on terror...I consider waterboarding to be "not torture"


Well I can't force you to change your opinion, however might I suggest everyone who feels its "not torture" should try undergoing a few rounds of it so they can be sure?

(I say this jokingly however I stand by my point that its easy not to feel horrified by whatever we have no connection with)

290 Irenicum  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:43:47pm

re: #227 jamesfirecat

Yep. Shep is da man.

291 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:44:02pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

I agree with you on nuclear power and the UN 100%. The UN is undoubtably the most corrupt organization in the world right now.

However, removing the carbon from coal is extremely expensive. Coal is over 40% Carbon so removing it just creates a more expensive, less effective source of power.

Geothermal, nuclear, solar, wind, drilling, natural gas, and any other possible sources of fuel should be used. If some people are willing to invest and purchase energy from clean coal plants then more power to them.

292 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:44:13pm

re: #286 Lidane

I don't think any politician is willing to "get out of the way" for 4 years or more. Out of the limelight, is out of sight, regardless of what he's doing.

293 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:44:57pm

re: #289 jamesfirecat

Well I can't force you to change your opinion, however might I suggest everyone who feels its "not torture" should try undergoing a few rounds of it so they can be sure?

(I say this jokingly however I stand by my point that its easy not to feel horrified by whatever we have no connection with)

oh my!....tres scary!

294 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:45:12pm

re: #284 Floral Giraffe

Is that supposed to be some kind of threat?
What exactly do you think the "ding score" is worth?

No, it isn't.

295 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:45:34pm

re: #289 jamesfirecat

Well I can't force you to change your opinion, however might I suggest everyone who feels its "not torture" should try undergoing a few rounds of it so they can be sure?

(I say this jokingly however I stand by my point that its easy not to feel horrified by whatever we have no connection with)

How far do you think the US should go to save lives?

296 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:46:14pm

re: #288 albusteve

hey everybody!
Mosh downdinged albusteve!

He made you look?
OMFG!
LOL!

297 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:47:17pm

re: #294 Mosh

No, it isn't.

So, what do you think the "ding score" is worth?
Just curious....

298 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:47:20pm

re: #295 Baier

How far do you think the US should go to save lives?

How has water boarding saved lives?

299 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:47:28pm

re: #273 Dark_Falcon

What were you saying?

Someone wanted to know any Lizard's reasoning behind updinging and downdinging, sort of an informal poll.

Cliffster jokingly said something to the effect of "I downding everything Dark Falcon posts".

I jokingly replied with "Quite concur".

300 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:47:35pm

regarding climate change....

Time is short and here's the damn thing about it
You're gonna die, gonna die for sure
And you can learn to live with love or without it
But there ain't no cure...
JH

301 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:48:15pm

re: #298 jamesfirecat

How has water boarding saved lives?

That's not what I asked you. I asked you how far the US should go to save lives.

302 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:49:15pm

re: #298 jamesfirecat

How has water boarding saved lives?

it saved the lives of the assholes that underwent it

303 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:49:16pm

re: #301 Baier

That's not what I asked you. I asked you how far the US should go to save lives.

What is this, a script runthrough for 24?

304 srb1976  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:49:43pm

Evening folks, back yet again.....the Little Man is still awake, he tells me "his nose feels very sick"...Looks like it's gonna be a long night!

305 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:50:10pm

re: #303 iceweasel

What is this, a script runthrough for 24?

I think if you against torture you should be able to define what that means.

306 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:50:12pm

Come on! Can't you see what is happening?

America has been infiltrated to it's highests reaches by the commie/socio/nazi/muslims and it's very government is plotting against you the average citizen. Why can't you see that? Are you blind? Or have you been drinking the koolaid prepared by the feminazis, scooped up by the acornist masses, and handed out by the elitest liberal media?

///Sigh...

307 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:50:23pm

re: #304 srb1976

Good luck soldier!

308 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:50:29pm

re: #303 iceweasel

What is this, a script runthrough for 24?

My bad. I thought it was for one of those Jason Bourne novels.
Hi Ice!

309 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:50:38pm

re: #301 Baier

That's not what I asked you. I asked you how far the US should go to save lives.

Okay then, I think that I would rather have someone die than torture someone.

What's the point of our nation having principles if we don't stand by them when its hard?

What's the point of defending a nation in such a way that the nation is no longer worth defending?

Of course this would make me look like a bastard who would be willing to give up American lives rather than make terrorists uncomfortable.


At least it would if torture worked so I'm glad it doesn't!

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

310 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:50:39pm

re: #267 Mosh

What do you think would be the best way to combat climate change?

There is no silver bullet. Look instead for a thousand ways to reduce waste. Here are just a few ideas. Permit schools to go to 4-day weeks (save ~20% of busing costs and reduce the utility usage), time the stoplights in cities all across the country to improve traffic flow (stopping and starting kills your gas mileage), ease air permit rules to allow polluters to make incremental improvements to facilities (instead of the all or nothing approach we have now), promote plug-in hybrids to eventually replace much of the fleet, Deliver the US Mail 3 days a week instead of 6.

Think of lots of little ideas instead of looking for the one big one.

311 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:51:26pm

re: #308 Floral Giraffe

My bad. I thought it was for one of those Jason Bourne novels.
Hi Ice!

Hey cutie! S'up??

312 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:51:52pm

re: #309 jamesfirecat

Okay then, I think that I would rather have someone die than torture someone.

What's the point of our nation having principles if we don't stand by them when its hard?

What's the point of defending a nation in such a way that the nation is no longer worth defending?

Of course this would make me look like a bastard who would be willing to give up American lives rather than make terrorists uncomfortable.

At least it would if torture worked so I'm glad it doesn't!

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]


You still didn't answer my question. How far should the US go to save lives?

313 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:52:12pm

re: #303 iceweasel

What is this, a script runthrough for 24?

Yes, we going to be looking into the ways Jack Bauer can escape the Inevitable Traitor next.

/cliches make good comedy fodder

314 jaunte  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:52:12pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Greater use of nuclear power, hybrid vehicles, and clean coal.


One addition to your list, looking long-term, should be more investment in ag research, to try to assure that our food crops are hardy enough to survive more extreme conditions.

315 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:52:20pm

re: #311 iceweasel

Hey cutie! S'up??

A tad concerned about Cato, other than that, well, the sky!
Whee!
And you & Jimmah?
All good?

316 Racer X  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:52:37pm

Texas Schools Ban Author for Book He Didn’t Even Write

Most parents love Bill Martin Jr. for the work he did with beloved children’s illustrator and author Eric Carle. But schools in Texas have decided Martin’s beloved tomes have to go.

Not because they’re naughty, but because Martin shares his name with another Bill Martin. The other guy just so happened to write a book (for adults) about Marxism.

And you all know what happens when you expose kids to a little socialism.

That’s right, they learn about another form of government! Of course, Bill Martin Jr. isn’t really trying to educate kids about much more than what brown bears see and the parts of the body. He even wrote an uber-American book if there ever is one: I Pledge Allegiance.

317 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:52:55pm

re: #312 Baier

You still didn't answer my question. How far should the US go to save lives?


The problem is that the question is too f***ing open ended. I could spend all night answering it and still leave a lot unsaid.

Give me an situation and I'll tell you yay or nay.

318 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:53:52pm

re: #303 iceweasel

What is this, a script runthrough for 24?

that's fantasy...those are not real bullets etc

319 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:53:55pm

re: #305 Baier

I think if you against torture you should be able to define what that means.

Okay. I'll define it the same way the CIA OIG did in 2004 when they concluded that the waterboarding they performed was no different than that performed by the Japanese, and that it was torture.

How's that for a start?

I think if you're for torture, the burden is on you to say what techniques you're supporting, why, and to demonstrate they're necessary.

320 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:54:29pm

re: #316 Racer X

Rick Perry and Tony Perkins have lots of friends on those Texas school boards.

321 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:54:35pm

re: #286 Lidane

Well, that too, but I have a sense that Huntsman looked at the GOP during the 2008 campaign, saw the craziness that was starting to take over, and decided that getting out of the way for a few years was a good idea. I wouldn't be surprised if he ran in 2016, to be honest.

Sure, it was a shrewd move by Obama, since the popular, non-loony GOP governor from Utah is now overseas doing diplomatic work for the US, but it's not like Huntsman loses much by all this. He can claim service to his country, he can put his language skills to good use, he gets foreign policy cred with respect to China, which is *huge*, and he stays out of the teabagger fray.

It's win-win all around for both Huntsman and Obama.

Well said. Huntsman is a face to watch when the GOP comes back to the world of reality. Imagine a candidate with the competence of Romney with none of his plasticity; we may have our first non-mainstream Christian POTUS!

322 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:54:56pm

re: #314 jaunte

One addition to your list, looking long-term, should be more investment in ag research, to try to assure that our food crops are hardy enough to survive more extreme conditions.

Quite Concur.

323 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:54:58pm

re: #319 iceweasel

Can we do the bamboo growing under your fingernails thing. PLEASE?
///

324 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:55:38pm

re: #292 Floral Giraffe

I don't think any politician is willing to "get out of the way" for 4 years or more. Out of the limelight, is out of sight, regardless of what he's doing.

In Huntsman's case, I'm not so sure.

He's a young, photogenic guy. He's not a whackjob teabagger or a birther. If we assume that this Tea Party nonsense lasts through 2012 and affects who the Republicans nominate, Huntsman being out of pocket could be huge.

Say that the GOP nominate a Tea Party favored candidate, or, heaven forbid, the teabaggers run Palin or someone else as a third party candidate and split the conservative vote, just like Perot did in '92, with Obama winning a second term. By the time 2016 came around the field would be wide open, and Huntsman could run as a non-loony Republican who has proven not only his foreign policy cred, but who has executive experience, and who can claim actual bipartisanship since he accepted an appointment from a Democratic president.

Should the GOP get curbstomped in 2012, they might just be receptive to the idea. It's a thought, anyway. :)

325 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:55:49pm

re: #317 jamesfirecat

The problem is that the question is too f***ing open ended. I could spend all night answering it and still leave a lot unsaid.

Give me an situation and I'll tell you yay or nay.

So you don't know how far is too far?

326 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:56:27pm

re: #319 iceweasel

Okay. I'll define it the same way the CIA OIG did in 2004 when they concluded that the waterboarding they performed was no different than that performed by the Japanese, and that it was torture.

How's that for a start?

I think if you're for torture, the burden is on you to say what techniques you're supporting, why, and to demonstrate they're necessary.

I didn't ask if water-boarding was torture. I asked how far is too far to save lives?

327 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:56:43pm

re: #319 iceweasel

Okay. I'll define it the same way the CIA OIG did in 2004 when they concluded that the waterboarding they performed was no different than that performed by the Japanese, and that it was torture.

How's that for a start?

I think if you're for torture, the burden is on you to say what techniques you're supporting, why, and to demonstrate they're necessary.

I support waterboarding on the off chance it may reveal names, places and dates...if not, so be it

328 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:56:48pm

re: #316 Racer X

Texas Schools Ban Author for Book He Didn’t Even Write

Most parents love Bill Martin Jr. for the work he did with beloved children’s illustrator and author Eric Carle. But schools in Texas have decided Martin’s beloved tomes have to go.

Not because they’re naughty, but because Martin shares his name with another Bill Martin. The other guy just so happened to write a book (for adults) about Marxism.

And you all know what happens when you expose kids to a little socialism.

That’s right, they learn about another form of government! Of course, Bill Martin Jr. isn’t really trying to educate kids about much more than what brown bears see and the parts of the body. He even wrote an uber-American book if there ever is one: I Pledge Allegiance.

OMG....Face palm!

329 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:56:51pm

re: #323 Floral Giraffe

Can we do the bamboo growing under your fingernails thing. PLEASE?
///

heh. I do often feel that way about another torture discussion, it's true...

330 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:57:08pm

re: #325 Baier

So you don't know how far is too far?

To answer the question correctly I would need to list every possible action.

Then I would need to give my opinion on every one.

Can you tell me how far you'd suggest America should go to save lives?

331 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:57:12pm
332 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:57:33pm

re: #324 Lidane

I just think that the world changes, alliances shift, priorities shift, and being "out of the public eye" for 4 years, means a potential candidate looses name recognition & traction.
I'm wrong all the time.
And I'm NOT a politician or a strategist.

333 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:57:45pm

re: #279 freetoken

Haha! That was exactly my reaction. Thanks for talking with me on this. And cool of Charles J to chime in too.

But no in the end I learn I do not have time to learn languages. I have time to do my day gig, my photography and have a good home life.

The photography is the point not the site. Thats my focus. So maybe again it is about hiring right and not about amateur attempts to code. I could use a web editor that truly will do clean code and WSYWIG. But that's apparently beyond the state of the art in Windows. It looked like it when I researched. But this is a good crowd to check my conclusions with.

Thanks!!

334 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:58:19pm

re: #330 jamesfirecat

To answer the question correctly I would need to list every possible action.

Then I would need to give my opinion on every one.

Can you tell me how far you'd suggest America should go to save lives?

re: #330 jamesfirecat

James is turning the tables.

335 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:58:27pm

re: #325 Baier

So you don't know how far is too far?

dismemberment, permanent disfigurement, and death are too far....imo

336 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:58:37pm

re: #326 Baier

I didn't ask if water-boarding was torture. I asked how far is too far to save lives?

You asked for a definition of torture.
If we're playing the Random Rhetorical Questions game, we could as easily ask you how many of our civil liberties, freedoms, and values you're willing to give up.
How many is too many before it's no longer America that's being defended?

This is why rhetorical games are pretty useless.

337 wiffersnapper  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:58:57pm

I refuse to support a political group that believes in conspiracy theories. It's a waste of time and moronic, plus it saves me hours of frustration.

Well, except for the sock Gremlins. Those are real.

338 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:59:35pm

re: #330 jamesfirecat

To answer the question correctly I would need to list every possible action.

Then I would need to give my opinion on every one.

Can you tell me how far you'd suggest America should go to save lives?

So you don't know.

339 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:59:48pm

re: #334 Mosh

re: #330 jamesfirecat

James is turning the tables.

No, he's pointing out the vacuity of the question as posed.

340 Girth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 8:59:49pm

re: #316 Racer X


And you all know what happens when you expose kids to a little socialism.

They start wearing berets?

341 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:00:03pm

re: #338 Baier

So you don't know.

Prove to me that you do, and then maybe it'll mean something.

342 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:00:15pm

re: #340 Girth

They start wearing berets?

And Che shirts! And Mao handbags!

343 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:00:17pm

re: #330 jamesfirecat

To answer the question correctly I would need to list every possible action.

Then I would need to give my opinion on every one.

Can you tell me how far you'd suggest America should go to save lives?

typical liberal...has to think about it, nuance it, read some studies, talk about it at Starbucks for a while

344 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:00:21pm

re: #329 iceweasel

Having ripped out 50 year old bamboo, in a 3 feet wide 120 feet long container. I have a special hate for that plant! Did you know it's a member of the grass family?

345 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:00:48pm

I wouldn't torture the terrorist prisoners, but I wouldn't coddle them either. As for spending resources to enable their religion behind bars by offering prayer mats, Korans, feeding them halal food only, I say the hell with all of that.

346 Girth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:01:54pm

re: #342 Alouette

And Che shirts! And Mao handbags!

Wait, it turns them into Cameron Diaz?

Quick, we need more socialism in the schools, NAO!

347 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:02:03pm

re: #344 Floral Giraffe

Having ripped out 50 year old bamboo, in a 3 feet wide 120 feet long container. I have a special hate for that plant! Did you know it's a member of the grass family?

I think I did know that, but lord knows it bears no resemblance to grass!
Wow, just trying to imagine how long that took you....yikes!

348 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:02:06pm

re: #336 iceweasel

You asked for a definition of torture.
If we're playing the Random Rhetorical Questions game, we could as easily ask you how many of our civil liberties, freedoms, and values you're willing to give up.
How many is too many before it's no longer America that's being defended?

This is why rhetorical games are pretty useless.

Most people think the most dangerous thing in war is the violence, but it's the liberties and values we surrender to win. I don't think it's useless, it's important to think about.

349 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:02:33pm

re: #332 Floral Giraffe

I'm wrong all the time.
And I'm NOT a politician or a strategist.

I'm not a politician or a strategist either. And I've been plenty wrong about politics over the years. I'm not claiming infallibility here. Heh.

I just think it's smart for Huntsman to be abroad right now, especially with all this birther/teabagger insanity that seems to have taken over the GOP lately. He can avoid all this mess and when the GOP comes back to reality, he can use that to his advantage and run for President.

350 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:02:36pm

re: #345 Mich-again

I wouldn't torture the terrorist prisoners, but I wouldn't coddle them either. As for spending resources to enable their religion behind bars by offering prayer mats, Korans, feeding them halal food only, I say the hell with all of that.

they all got fat at Gitmo...a national security issue!...hahaha!

351 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:02:55pm

re: #345 Mich-again

I wouldn't torture the terrorist prisoners, but I wouldn't coddle them either. As for spending resources to enable their religion behind bars by offering prayer mats, Korans, feeding them halal food only, I say the hell with all of that.

Would you like it if our Christian prisoners were denied a chance to maintain their Christian rituals?

Or our Jewish soldiers were forced to eat non kosher food?

352 Racer X  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:03:01pm

re: #340 Girth

And you all know what happens when you expose kids to a little socialism.


They start wearing berets?

"They learn about another form of government".

Classic line.

353 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:03:27pm

re: #338 Baier

So you don't know.

Baier, that came across as snarky. Be nice.

354 Mosh  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:03:33pm

Good night yall! :)

355 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:03:50pm

re: #349 Lidane

I'm not a politician or a strategist either. And I've been plenty wrong about politics over the years. I'm not claiming infallibility here. Heh.

I just think it's smart for Huntsman to be abroad right now, especially with all this birther/teabagger insanity that seems to have taken over the GOP lately. He can avoid all this mess and when the GOP comes back to reality, he can use that to his advantage and run for President.

He will return....the Messiah!

356 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:04:30pm

re: #348 Baier

Most people think the most dangerous thing in war is the violence, but it's the liberties and values we surrender to win. I don't think it's useless, it's important to think about.

So how far do you think America should go to save lives?

357 jaunte  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:04:53pm

re: #316 Racer X

Homescholers for Perry!
[Link: tfninsider.org...]

358 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:05:04pm

re: #347 iceweasel

I think I did know that, but lord knows it bears no resemblance to grass!
Wow, just trying to imagine how long that took you...yikes!

And that's why they call me "Floral"! LOL!
I have a raker toothed tree saw.
[Link: www.amazon.com...]
Every girl should have one!

359 bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:05:14pm

re: #351 jamesfirecat

Would you like it if our Christian prisoners were denied a chance to maintain their Christian rituals?

Or our Jewish soldiers were forced to eat non kosher food?

Do you feel their is an equivalency between US servicemen and foreign terrorists?

How many Christian or Jewish terrorists have been apprehended in the war on terror?

360 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:05:19pm

re: #353 Dark_Falcon

Baier, that came across as snarky. Be nice.

I'm trying, lord knows.

361 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:05:30pm

re: #345 Mich-again

I wouldn't torture the terrorist prisoners, but I wouldn't coddle them either. As for spending resources to enable their religion behind bars by offering prayer mats, Korans, feeding them halal food only, I say the hell with all of that.

Why? Would you approve of forbidding Christian prisoners the Bible?

Please remember that in many cases we're talking only about suspected terrorists, who haven't been convicted, let alone charged.

Not all Muslims are extremists anyway. Why not give them freedom to practice their religion in custody, a freedom that many (if not most) Muslim countries deny to others? Isn't that also a way for American values to triumph?

362 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:05:37pm

re: #348 Baier

Most people think the most dangerous thing in war is the violence, but it's the liberties and values we surrender to win. I don't think it's useless, it's important to think about.

Actually, the most important thing about a war is winning it. Lose, and the care and good intentions you may have had will count for nothing.

363 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:06:03pm

re: #351 jamesfirecat

Would you like it if our Christian prisoners were denied a chance to maintain their Christian rituals?

Or our Jewish soldiers were forced to eat non kosher food?

good grief...I've heard it all now

364 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:06:09pm

re: #356 jamesfirecat

My answer after doing some complex calculations is 15,677 miles, 3 yards and 2 inches.

365 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:06:22pm

re: #357 jaunte

Homescholers for Perry!
[Link: tfninsider.org...]

Heh.

366 bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:06:35pm

re: #363 albusteve

good grief...I've heard it all now

Stunning isn't it?

367 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:06:37pm

re: #362 Dark_Falcon

Actually, the most important thing about a war is winning it. Lose, and the care and good intentions you may have had will count for nothing.

Yes, but if we beat the Third Reich without giving up our values I think we can do the same to a bunch of religious nut jobs operating out of caves.

368 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:06:55pm

re: #361 iceweasel

Why? Would you approve of forbidding Christian prisoners the Bible?

Please remember that in many cases we're talking only about suspected terrorists, who haven't been convicted, let alone charged.

Not all Muslims are extremists anyway. Why not give them freedom to practice their religion in custody, a freedom that many (if not most) Muslim countries deny to others? Isn't that also a way for American values to triumph?

yes...no books, no cable, no pole dancers

369 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:07:48pm

re: #359 bagua

Do you feel their is an equivalency between US servicemen and foreign terrorists?

How many Christian or Jewish terrorists have been apprehended in the war on terror?

Hey, either way we want these people to tell us things right?

Catch more flies with honey then with wet napkins across the face.

370 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:08:30pm

re: #367 jamesfirecat

Yes, but if we beat the Third Reich without giving up our values I think we can do the same to a bunch of religious nut jobs operating out of caves.

what of the Japanese who we summarily killed...are we moral losers not fit to wear the crown of liberty?

371 bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:08:35pm

re: #367 jamesfirecat

Yes, but if we beat the Third Reich without giving up our values I think we can do the same to a bunch of religious nut jobs operating out of caves.

Good comment. We sacrifice nothing in terms of our civil rights and freedoms regardless of how we treat non-citizen terrorists.

372 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:08:36pm

re: #359 bagua

Do you feel their is an equivalency between US servicemen and foreign terrorists?

How many Christian or Jewish terrorists have been apprehended in the war on terror?

You raise a good point, Bagua, but I would submit that providing halal meals is worth it to us as a means of avoiding bad PR. If we did not, the Muslim world would be ablaze with stories about how we are using food to force Muslims to abandon their religion. No, in this case providing the meals is the smart action, not for the terrorists sake but for our sake.

373 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:09:24pm

re: #371 bagua

Good comment. We sacrifice nothing in terms of our civil rights and freedoms regardless of how we treat non-citizen terrorists.

Actually after reading my post, I think that was a foolish thing to say.

Japanese interment camps, somebody should have called me on that...

374 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:09:34pm

re: #367 jamesfirecat

Yes, but if we beat the Third Reich without giving up our values I think we can do the same to a bunch of religious nut jobs operating out of caves.

Do you really believe that the U.S. played nicey nice with the Germans and the Japanese?

Well of course we did, we had the Russians to do the not nicey nice.

375 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:09:36pm

re: #356 jamesfirecat

So how far do you think America should go to save lives?

I don't think there is a limit. I know in the past we've dropped atomic weapons on civilian populations and I know we've read terrorist rights.

376 bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:10:28pm

re: #372 Dark_Falcon

You raise a good point, Bagua, but I would submit that providing halal meals is worth it to us as a means of avoiding bad PR. If we did not, the Muslim world would be ablaze with stories about how we are using food to force Muslims to abandon their religion. No, in this case providing the meals is the smart action, not for the terrorists sake but for our sake.

It doesn't trouble me to provide halal meals and humane treatment to our captives, that is a good thing.

377 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:10:46pm

re: #362 Dark_Falcon

Actually, the most important thing about a war is winning it. Lose, and the care and good intentions you may have had will count for nothing.

Agreed, but to win you must decide how much you are willing to give.

378 Girth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:11:09pm

re: #374 Alouette

Do you really believe that the U.S. played nicey nice with the Germans and the Japanese?

Well of course we did, we had the Russians to do the not nicey nice.

Dresden wasn't so nicey nice.

379 bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:11:30pm

re: #373 jamesfirecat

Actually after reading my post, I think that was a foolish thing to say.

Japanese interment camps, somebody should have called me on that...

The Japanese internment camps were not alien terrorists, they were US citizens who just happened to be ethnically Japanese. There is zero equivalency.

380 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:11:32pm

re: #355 albusteve

Eh. I wouldn't go that far.

He'd have a hell of a time in the South, being that he's a Mormon, so it's not like his nomination would be guaranteed. However, the GOP desperately needs new blood and new ideas that aren't either wrapped up in birther/teabagger/fundie nonsense, or so old and out of touch that they're irrelevant. I think Huntsman fits that bill nicely.

I'm not even a Republican and I think I could support him. I happen to like the guy.

381 austin_blue  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:11:51pm

re: #310 Mich-again

There is no silver bullet. Look instead for a thousand ways to reduce waste. Here are just a few ideas. Permit schools to go to 4-day weeks (save ~20% of busing costs and reduce the utility usage), time the stoplights in cities all across the country to improve traffic flow (stopping and starting kills your gas mileage), ease air permit rules to allow polluters to make incremental improvements to facilities (instead of the all or nothing approach we have now), promote plug-in hybrids to eventually replace much of the fleet, Deliver the US Mail 3 days a week instead of 6.

Think of lots of little ideas instead of looking for the one big one.

Here's one silver bullet. Here's a european BMW 5 series with a turbo diesel that gets incredible mileage and remarkable acceleration:

The replacement of the twin-turbocharged xDrive35d with the new xDrive40d diesel sees an improvement in emissions of 10 per cent, despite horsepower increasing by 20bhp to 306bhp. The Combined fuel consumption figure is 37.7mpg while the 0-62mph acceleration figure now stands at 6.6 seconds, down from 7.0 seconds.

Here's the entire article:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Don't tell me that if BMW can put a 5 series car out in Europe with that kind of mileage that we can't increase our mileage on our cars in this country by 40 to 60 percent in the next 5 years.

Do you have any idea on how much that would decrease our oil imports?

Ford is making cars in Europe. GM is making cars in Europe (Opel). Don't tell me that the tech being used in Europe can't be used here.

382 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:12:01pm

re: #375 Baier

I don't think there is a limit. I know in the past we've dropped atomic weapons on civilian populations and I know we've read terrorist rights.

So you'd be fine if we just pulled out of the Middle East and turned the entire region into one big nuclear glass mirror?

383 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:12:27pm

re: #379 bagua

The Japanese internment camps were not alien terrorists, they were US citizens who just happened to be ethnically Japanese. There is zero equivalency.

I'm saying that the Japanese interment camps were an example of America abandoning our values.

384 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:12:37pm

re: #373 jamesfirecat

Actually after reading my post, I think that was a foolish thing to say.

Japanese interment camps, somebody should have called me on that...

I did...have you any knowledge of Bataan or Nanking?

385 bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:12:52pm

re: #383 jamesfirecat

I'm saying that the Japanese interment camps were an example of America abandoning our values.

Yes, in that case I agree.

386 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:12:59pm

re: #382 jamesfirecat

So you'd be fine if we just pulled out of the Middle East and turned the entire region into one big nuclear glass mirror?

When did I even imply such a thing? There is something wrong with your head.

387 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:13:05pm

re: #370 albusteve

what of the Japanese who we summarily killed...are we moral losers not fit to wear the crown of liberty?

Very good point, steve. By the end of World War II, we were sinking fishing boats and shooting the survivors. The over-12 male portion of the Japanese civilian population of Mindanao was almost entirely wiped out by US and Philippine troops would were unwilling to take any Japanese man prisoner, following the discovery of brutal Japanese atrocities.

388 bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:13:49pm

re: #386 Baier

When did I even imply such a thing? There is something wrong with your head.

Nothing in your comment implied that. It is a flight of fantasy.

389 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:13:59pm

re: #382 jamesfirecat

So you'd be fine if we just pulled out of the Middle East and turned the entire region into one big nuclear glass mirror?

YOU are the only one here, that has said such a thing.
Do you have any reading comprehension, at all?

390 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:14:24pm
391 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:15:19pm

re: #326 Baier

I didn't ask if water-boarding was torture. I asked how far is too far to save lives?

Thats easy, if it violates civilized ethics, U.N. anti-torture agreements that we "were" signatories too, and the standard Geneva Convention prohibitions against treatment of prisoners then it is quite obviously too far.

Don't propose some bullshit never going to happen in a million years scenario like you people always do to support torture where we know the guy is a terrorist, we know he knows where a bomb is or will be, we know that only he has the secret code to disarm it. We know that tens of thousands will die unless he tells us what we know he knows.

The entire proposition is ludicrous bullshit and an obvious fallacy that can only be found in movies and on simple minded T.V. shows for rednecks, (like 24).

Mostly the people we have tortured were sold to us by the Afghans or Pakistanis because they were people who were suspected of involvement, or had a beef with the local warlord, or maybe the local police chief just wanted to seize his house and lands (or daughter). They weren't "captured on the battlefield" there is no evidence that they did anything to harm the U.S.A. or it's troops.

Yet torturing them just in case maybe they are guilty of something or might know something is OK? Because that is how torture was used and that is what you are trying to defend, why do you think that we have had to let most of them go? They were guilty of nothing, they had not attacked us, but we tortured them anyway. Yet people seem shocked that some of the people we did let go have turned around and joined the taliban or other Muslim extremist groups?

Revenge is quite a motivator, I can imagine doing the same thing in their shoes, hate begets hate.

392 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:15:59pm

re: #390 jamesfirecat

Downding for going after a strawman. Address the real argument instead of taking cheap shots.

393 keloyd  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:16:07pm

re: #370 albusteve

what of the Japanese who we summarily killed...are we moral losers not fit to wear the crown of liberty?

When did we systematically and summarily kill the Japanese? Killed in battle? yes, Killed in some gray areas where the inclination to take prisoners rubbed up against their reputation for kamikaze/suicide bomber tactics? yup, imprisoned unjustly? yes, but I'd be interested to know what you're getting at, aside from individual rogue soldiers or breakdowns in discipline.

394 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:16:19pm

re: #380 Lidane

Eh. I wouldn't go that far.

He'd have a hell of a time in the South, being that he's a Mormon, so it's not like his nomination would be guaranteed. However, the GOP desperately needs new blood and new ideas that aren't either wrapped up in birther/teabagger/fundie nonsense, or so old and out of touch that they're irrelevant. I think Huntsman fits that bill nicely.

I'm not even a Republican and I think I could support him. I happen to like the guy.

so do I so far...I was being silly of course

395 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:16:23pm

re: #391 ausador

Thats easy, if it violates civilized ethics, U.N. anti-torture agreements that we "were" signatories too, and the standard Geneva Convention prohibitions against treatment of prisoners then it is quite obviously too far.

Don't propose some bullshit never going to happen in a million years scenario like you people always do to support torture where we know the guy is a terrorist, we know he knows where a bomb is or will be, we know that only he has the secret code to disarm it. We know that tens of thousands will die unless he tells us what we know he knows.

The entire proposition is ludicrous bullshit and an obvious fallacy that can only be found in movies and on simple minded T.V. shows for rednecks, (like 24).

Mostly the people we have tortured were sold to us by the Afghans or Pakistanis because they were people who were suspected of involvement, or had a beef with the local warlord, or maybe the local police chief just wanted to seize his house and lands (or daughter). They weren't "captured on the battlefield" there is no evidence that they did anything to harm the U.S.A. or it's troops.

Yet torturing them just in case maybe they are guilty of something or might know something is OK? Because that is how torture was used and that is what you are trying to defend, why do you think that we have had to let most of them go? They were guilty of nothing, they had not attacked us, but we tortured them anyway. Yet people seem shocked that some of the people we did let go have turned around and joined the taliban or other Muslim extremist groups?

Revenge is quite a motivator, I can imagine doing the same thing in their shoes, hate begets hate.

Thank you. It was too late at night for me to come up with an explanation that well thought out.

396 lazardo  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:16:35pm

brb lunch

397 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:16:43pm

re: #390 jamesfirecat

You said that "I don't think there is a limit" on how far America should go to save lives.

Lets just nuke the entire middle east, there have been so many wars there that just getting rid of it is bound to save lives in the long run!

I don't think there is a limit. I didn't say, " I don't think there is a limit in the Middle East"

398 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:17:25pm

re: #392 Dark_Falcon

Downding for going after a strawman. Address the real argument instead of taking cheap shots.

Well he said there was no limit. If there's no limit to what we can do then isn't bringing out the nukes a valid option?

399 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:17:54pm

re: #390 jamesfirecat

I read all of the posts, while I am here.
I like most of the folks on Charle's site.
You are very close to GAZE from me.
Not that you'd care, but you are really reaching the wrong way here.
IMO.

Do you know the "first rule of holes"?
You should look it up, sometime.

400 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:18:19pm

re: #391 ausador

Thats easy, if it violates civilized ethics, U.N. anti-torture agreements that we "were" signatories too, and the standard Geneva Convention prohibitions against treatment of prisoners then it is quite obviously too far.

Don't propose some bullshit never going to happen in a million years scenario like you people always do to support torture where we know the guy is a terrorist, we know he knows where a bomb is or will be, we know that only he has the secret code to disarm it. We know that tens of thousands will die unless he tells us what we know he knows.

The entire proposition is ludicrous bullshit and an obvious fallacy that can only be found in movies and on simple minded T.V. shows for rednecks, (like 24).

Mostly the people we have tortured were sold to us by the Afghans or Pakistanis because they were people who were suspected of involvement, or had a beef with the local warlord, or maybe the local police chief just wanted to seize his house and lands (or daughter). They weren't "captured on the battlefield" there is no evidence that they did anything to harm the U.S.A. or it's troops.

Yet torturing them just in case maybe they are guilty of something or might know something is OK? Because that is how torture was used and that is what you are trying to defend, why do you think that we have had to let most of them go? They were guilty of nothing, they had not attacked us, but we tortured them anyway. Yet people seem shocked that some of the people we did let go have turned around and joined the taliban or other Muslim extremist groups?

Revenge is quite a motivator, I can imagine doing the same thing in their shoes, hate begets hate.

Again, for those that cannot read, I'm not defending water-boarding. I'm simply asking how far is too far to save lives.

401 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:18:32pm

re: #397 Baier

I don't think there is a limit. I didn't say, " I don't think there is a limit in the Middle East"

Would you be okay if we had to rape some women to save lives?

402 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:18:38pm

Hmmm. Had a bit of a mad dinger run through the Time AGW thread a little while ago...Interesting.

AGW always brings em out.

403 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:18:44pm

re: #391 ausador

Sorry ausidor but that is just nonsense and demonisation of US troops who are risking their lives to protect us from sociopaths murderers. One doesn't have to exaggerate in order to oppose harsh interrogation, the folks sitting in Gitmo were not innocent boy scouts.

404 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:19:19pm

re: #401 jamesfirecat

Would you be okay if we had to rape some women to save lives?

Goodnight.

405 Soap_Man  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:19:29pm

re: #401 jamesfirecat

Would you be okay if we had to rape some women to save lives?

Okay, that's enough. Knock it off.

406 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:19:34pm

re: #404 Baier

Goodnight.

What you said "no limits"?

407 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:19:38pm

re: #393 keloyd

When did we systematically and summarily kill the Japanese? Killed in battle? yes, Killed in some gray areas where the inclination to take prisoners rubbed up against their reputation for kamikaze/suicide bomber tactics? yup, imprisoned unjustly? yes, but I'd be interested to know what you're getting at, aside from individual rogue soldiers or breakdowns in discipline.

it was widespread practice...just ask my dad....go through the killing ground and do the coup de gras...that's what I'm getting at...there is plenty of oral history and even some film footage

408 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:19:59pm

re: #400 Baier

Again, for those that cannot read, I'm not defending water-boarding. I'm simply asking how far is too far to save lives.

And, I don't think we can ever "know" the things bolded in Baier's quote.
Think likely, based on current intelligence, yes, but KNOW? Not possible.

409 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:20:33pm

re: #405 Soap_Man

Okay, that's enough. Knock it off.

Maybe I'm just not getting how when he says "no limit" he doesn't mean "NO LIMIT".....

410 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:20:38pm

re: #403 Bagua

Sorry ausidor but that is just nonsense and demonisation of US troops who are risking their lives to protect us from sociopaths murderers. One doesn't have to exaggerate in order to oppose harsh interrogation, the folks sitting in Gitmo were not innocent boy scouts.

Quite Concur.

411 austin_blue  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:20:54pm

re: #359 bagua

Do you feel their is an equivalency between US servicemen and foreign terrorists?

How many Christian or Jewish terrorists have been apprehended in the war on terror?

Yes. When we treat them like animals, they will do the same to us. The Iraqis didn't start cutting heads until the pictures from Abu Ghraib and the reports that people were being tortured to death inside that and other facilities made the press.

412 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:21:15pm

re: #401 jamesfirecat

Would you be okay if we had to rape some women to save lives?


Good grief lad, show some respect!

413 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:21:21pm

re: #398 jamesfirecat

Well he said there was no limit. If there's no limit to what we can do then isn't bringing out the nukes a valid option?

you are really hung up on this limit lingo...semantics and nuance...it's a waste of time

414 Racer X  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:21:38pm

re: #401 jamesfirecat

There is something seriously wrong with you.

Either that, or you are a Moby.

415 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:21:47pm

re: #409 jamesfirecat

You got 7 downdings for that comment and no updings. That's a pretty good indicator that you've gone over the line.

416 wee fury  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:21:48pm

re: #390 jamesfirecat
I downdinged you for that comment.

417 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:22:05pm

re: #411 austin_blue

Yes. When we treat them like animals, they will do the same to us. The Iraqis didn't start cutting heads until the pictures from Abu Ghraib and the reports that people were being tortured to death inside that and other facilities made the press.

I think there were beheadings before that, a_b.

No question though that Abu G helped radicalise others and whip up more anti-US sentiment.

418 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:22:08pm

re: #413 albusteve

you are really hung up on this limit lingo...semantics and nuance...it's a waste of time

Well he was the one who brought up the idea of "how far would you go"

I wanted to talk about particular situations rather than trying to pain morality with broad strokes.

419 avanti  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:22:26pm

re: #402 iceweasel

Hmmm. Had a bit of a mad dinger run through the Time AGW thread a little while ago...Interesting.

AGW always brings em out.

I feel sorry for the few brave posters on Hot Air for example, trying to correct the typical anti AGW talking points. They'll state facts, provide links and be blasted for so doing.

420 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:22:27pm

re: #400 Baier

Again, for those that cannot read, I'm not defending water-boarding. I'm simply asking how far is too far to save lives.

How far as in what exactly? I am reading and I am really trying to understand what sort of answers you're looking for. Are we talking torture specifically or something more generalized. Are we talk general ethics? Specific techniques or strategy? Basic principles?

421 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:22:34pm

re: #401 jamesfirecat

Would you be okay if we had to rape some women to save lives?

jeezus...what a stupid question...you are now irrelevant

422 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:23:14pm

re: #402 iceweasel

Hmmm. Had a bit of a mad dinger run through the Time AGW thread a little while ago...Interesting.

AGW always brings em out.

Yep, it makes them run in screaming "I hate you, daddy!". Then Charles bounces their butts out the door.

423 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:23:15pm

re: #391 ausador

Revenge is quite a motivator, I can imagine doing the same thing in their shoes, hate begets hate.

Correct. Unhealthy attachment begets anger, which begets hate which of course begets violence. My grandfather told me stories of German Officer POW's taken out from a local POW camp and taken about in Montrose/Flintridge during the second world war. German officers were shown American life. When the war ended they went home healthy and well fed. I suppose that helped relations for decades.

424 Racer X  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:23:41pm

I got $5 that says Moby.

This dude has my bullshit detector pegged since day 1.

425 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:24:05pm

re: #411 austin_blue

Yes. When we treat them like animals, they will do the same to us. The Iraqis didn't start cutting heads until the pictures from Abu Ghraib and the reports that people were being tortured to death inside that and other facilities made the press.

Suicide bombings of civilians and murdering our troops was good behaviour? Are you saying we pushed them into the beheadings? Sorry, I don't buy that one bit. The organised AG types moved into Iraq well after the initial occupation.

426 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:24:10pm

re: #415 Dark_Falcon

You got 7 downdings for that comment and no updings. That's a pretty good indicator that you've gone over the line.

Once again its probably too late for me to be posting here (should probably go Bioshock instead) but I was just trying to point out the absurdity of saying there are "no limits" to what we can do to save lives.

427 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:24:26pm

re: #411 austin_blue

Yes. When we treat them like animals, they will do the same to us. The Iraqis didn't start cutting heads until the pictures from Abu Ghraib and the reports that people were being tortured to death inside that and other facilities made the press.

timeline maybe?....I don't think so

428 Soap_Man  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:24:40pm

re: #424 Racer X

I got $5 that says Moby.

This dude has my bullshit detector pegged since day 1.

Forgive my ignorance, but what's a Moby?

429 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:24:59pm

re: #426 jamesfirecat

Once again its probably too late for me to be posting here (should probably go Bioshock instead) but I was just trying to point out the absurdity of saying there are "no limits" to what we can do to save lives.

yes, it's too late

430 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:25:00pm

re: #424 Racer X

I got $5 that says Moby.

This dude has my bullshit detector pegged since day 1.

Isn't a 'moby' supposed to be a liberal who pretends to be a (crazy) conservative in order to discredit conservatives?
I realise LGF has long had some atypical definition of moby, but he isnt a moby.

431 austin_blue  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:25:02pm

re: #417 iceweasel

I think there were beheadings before that, a_b.

No question though that Abu G helped radicalise others and whip up more anti-US sentiment.

They didn't start cutting *our* heads before AG, and that's a fact. Once they realized we were down in their sandbox, it was open season.

432 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:25:03pm

re: #414 Racer X

There is something seriously wrong with you.

Either that, or you are a Moby.

Ding Ding Ding!

We have a winnah!

433 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:25:27pm

re: #411 austin_blue

But to be clear, I do not support the mistreatment of prisoners of war.

434 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:25:41pm

re: #426 jamesfirecat

Shooting up some slicers sounds like a good thing. Except the brutes. I hate the brutes.

435 Baier  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:25:49pm

re: #420 Jadespring

How far as in what exactly? I am reading and I am really trying to understand what sort of answers you're looking for. Are we talking torture specifically or something more generalized. Are we talk general ethics? Specific techniques or strategy? Basic principles?

re: #426 jamesfirecat

Once again its probably too late for me to be posting here (should probably go Bioshock instead) but I was just trying to point out the absurdity of saying there are "no limits" to what we can do to save lives.


I just want to reiterate, that is not what I said at all.

436 Girth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:26:00pm

re: #418 jamesfirecat

Well he was the one who brought up the idea of "how far would you go"

I wanted to talk about particular situations rather than trying to pain morality with broad strokes.

You can use reductio ad absurdum without being patently offensive.

Do better.

437 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:26:08pm

re: #434 Jadespring

Shooting up some slicers sounds like a good thing. Except the brutes. I hate the brutes.

Brutes?

I think you're mixing Bioshock with Halo.

438 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:26:22pm

re: #424 Racer X

I got $5 that says Moby.

This dude has my bullshit detector pegged since day 1.

I'll get the grill started.
Just in case...

439 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:26:38pm

re: #417 iceweasel

I think there were beheadings before that, a_b.

No question though that Abu G helped radicalise others and whip up more anti-US sentiment.

right on both accounts I believe...Abu G was a dismal mess that never should have happened

440 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:27:03pm

pimf: I meant AQ, not AG. Meaning the organised Islamist stuff developed later as the foreign AQ terrorists started streaming into Iraq.

441 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:27:06pm

re: #435 Baier

I just want to reiterate, that is not what I said at all.

Then what did you say?

442 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:27:12pm

re: #426 jamesfirecat

Go look up the "first rule of holes".
PLEASE?
It will do you a great benefit.

443 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:27:12pm

re: #431 austin_blue

They didn't start cutting *our* heads before AG, and that's a fact. Once they realized we were down in their sandbox, it was open season.

I'm not disputing that Abu G etc endangers our troops. One of the primary (pragmatic) justifications for opposing torture and endorsing the good treatment of our captives is that any failure to do so inevitably endangers the lives of our troops and Americans generally.

444 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:27:20pm

re: #430 iceweasel

Isn't a 'moby' supposed to be a liberal who pretends to be a (crazy) conservative in order to discredit conservatives?
I realise LGF has long had some atypical definition of moby, but he isnt a moby.

agreed...he's no moby

445 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:27:27pm

re: #438 Floral Giraffe

I'll get the grill started.
Just in case...

Thanks. My grill got buried by the snow, so I can't grill till tomorrow when I dig it out.

446 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:27:47pm

re: #435 Baier

I just want to reiterate, that is not what I said at all.

Nor did you imply anything like that at all.

447 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:27:51pm

re: #438 Floral Giraffe

I'll get the grill started.
Just in case...

that's rude...

448 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:28:04pm

re: #439 albusteve

right on both accounts I believe...Abu G was a dismal mess that never should have happened

Concur.

449 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:28:22pm

re: #437 jamesfirecat

Brutes?

I think you're mixing Bioshock with Halo.

Those big fat hulking things that charge you. I played Bioshock 2 for hours earlier today.

450 Aye Pod  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:28:29pm

re: #426 jamesfirecat

Once again its probably too late for me to be posting here (should probably go Bioshock instead) but I was just trying to point out the absurdity of saying there are "no limits" to what we can do to save lives.

That's how I read it too. I think your comments were perfectly reasonable.

451 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:28:29pm

re: #438 Floral Giraffe

I'll get the grill started.
Just in case...

Guys, I've stated several times that I'm a liberal.


You can call me tactless and illmanered, and a bad speller or many other things, but if you look through my posts, I've never made a secret of which side I'm rooting for.

452 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:28:36pm

re: #441 jamesfirecat

Then what did you say?

Your reading comprehension and retention need work.

453 keloyd  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:28:51pm

re: #407 albusteve

it was widespread practice...just ask my dad...go through the killing ground and do the coup de gras...that's what I'm getting at...there is plenty of oral history and even some film footage

I won't argue it didn't happen. I can't argue much at all this late, but my knowledge through family and the History channel was that my grandfather in Guam took some Japanese as POWs. We have photos. (The Jap officer in charge had the only clean white shirt and a little Hitler mustache which must have been the style at the time.) I also recall some island with lots of caves near the end of WW2, we dropped bits of paper on the population with the instructions that "if you wish to surrender, bring this ticket with you and wave it around so we don't shoot."

If there were just times when our boys were to enraged to follow the rules, or the Japanese had snook one too many hand grenades in with the POWs lately, so we just got tired of taking prisoners, or it otherwise wasn't practical, how systematic was our breach of proper conduct relative to other allies?

454 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:29:34pm

re: #448 Dark_Falcon

Concur.

Also concur, mistreatment of POWs is unacceptable without justification.

455 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:29:40pm

re: #449 Jadespring

Those big fat hulking things that charge you. I played Bioshock 2 for hours earlier today.

Ahh I'm not gonna get Bioshock 2 till my Birthday so don't spoil anything.

There are enemies in Halo called Brutes...

456 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:29:42pm

re: #435 Baier

I just want to reiterate, that is not what I said at all.

I wasn't suggesting you did. I was just asking for some clarification on the original question.

457 austin_blue  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:30:07pm

re: #425 Bagua

Suicide bombings of civilians and murdering our troops was good behaviour? Are you saying we pushed them into the beheadings? Sorry, I don't buy that one bit. The organised AG types moved into Iraq well after the initial occupation.

You know, I have read that five times, and it still makes no sense. Is there a point of discussion in there? I didn't mention "good behavior". What are the organized AG types? Abu Ghraib?

So confused...

(By the way, this references my 421)

458 wee fury  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:30:38pm

re: #441 jamesfirecat

Then what did you say?


You are as irritating as a mosquito bite on the bottom of my foot. GAZE.

459 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:30:44pm

BTW, I realise james' question as posed was offensive, but it is a fact that our interrogators have used the threat of rape and the threat of murder (of female relatives of the detainee) before. This is documented in the CIA 2004 OIG report.
It is also a fact that we raped people at Abu G. This is in the Taguba report.

I think there is universal agreement here that such techniques are wrong.

460 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:30:57pm

re: #455 jamesfirecat

Ahh I'm not gonna get Bioshock 2 till my Birthday so don't spoil anything.

There are enemies in Halo called Brutes...

Oops sorry. I just assumed it was 2 you were talking about. No worries that doesn't spoil anything. I just got 2 yesterday.

461 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:31:36pm

re: #452 Floral Giraffe

Your reading comprehension and retention need work.

Its 12:30 AM where I am (one of those East Cost Liberals) so combined that with only about seven hours of sleep last night....

Yeah that adds up pretty well.

I'm only hanging around because I can figure out what I misunderstood....

462 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:32:35pm

re: #457 austin_blue

You know, I have read that five times, and it still makes no sense. Is there a point of discussion in there? I didn't mention "good behavior". What are the organized AG types? Abu Ghraib?

So confused...

(By the way, this references my 421)

He meant AQ for Al Qaeda, which had already established its self in Iraq before Adu Ghraib happened. That baleful event caused a lot of anger towards us in Iraq, but it did not cause the enemy to escalate their tactics in any meaningful way.

463 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:33:28pm

this troll, moby thing gets tossed around way too much around here...I think it's the most disrespectful attitude you can take to a poster...it fucking pisses me off...let people post without that over rated intimidation...some people are just too infatuated it, like a clique...it's disgusting, worse by far than any disagreement

464 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:33:30pm

re: #457 austin_blue

You know, I have read that five times, and it still makes no sense. Is there a point of discussion in there? I didn't mention "good behavior". What are the organized AG types? Abu Ghraib?

So confused...

(By the way, this references my 421)

Sorry, I meant AQ for Al Queda. What I mean is there was some horrendous violence being perpetrated by the terrorists/insurgents such as intentional bombing of civilians and attacks on the liberating forces. Beheading is not much of an escalation, it is more of an Islamist thing once the insurgency became more about imported terrorists.

465 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:34:21pm

re: #375 Baier

I don't think there is a limit. I know in the past we've dropped atomic weapons on civilian populations and I know we've read terrorist rights.

I had to go back and look for the original post. It looks to me like Baier is merely asking the question how far is too far? James is asking in more concrete terms. Nobody is really answering the question though, how far is too far? What should we NOT be willing to do in order to save lives? And to what extent do we engage in quantitative or qualitative analysis to determine the answer?

466 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:34:23pm

re: #459 iceweasel

BTW, I realise james' question as posed was offensive, but it is a fact that our interrogators have used the threat of rape and the threat of murder (of female relatives of the detainee) before. This is documented in the CIA 2004 OIG report.
It is also a fact that we raped people at Abu G. This is in the Taguba report.

I think there is universal agreement here that such techniques are wrong.

It should, however, be noted that the rape at Abu Ghraib happened in defiance of US policy, not because of it. Rape has always been defined as out of bounds for interrogations.

467 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:34:39pm

re: #461 jamesfirecat

Its 12:30 AM where I am (one of those East Cost Liberals) so combined that with only about seven hours of sleep last night...

Yeah that adds up pretty well.

I'm only hanging around because I can figure out what I misunderstood...

Gah!

"I"m only hanging around because I want to see if I can figure out what I misunderstood..."

Yeah there goes my ability to form a coherent sentence without concentrating....

468 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:34:57pm

re: #401 jamesfirecat

Would you be okay if we had to rape some women to save lives?

Gawt-damn! That is the largest hyperbolic strawman I think I've ever seen. I think it just shat about sixteen Godzillas, it's that big.

469 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:35:10pm

re: #463 albusteve

this troll, moby thing gets tossed around way too much around here...I think it's the most disrespectful attitude you can take to a poster...it fucking pisses me off...let people post without that over rated intimidation...some people are just too infatuated it, like a clique...it's disgusting, worse by far than any disagreement

Agreed, it is dehumanising, we are people behind these anonymous nics. I'm going to drop that term.

470 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:35:24pm

re: #453 keloyd

I won't argue it didn't happen. I can't argue much at all this late, but my knowledge through family and the History channel was that my grandfather in Guam took some Japanese as POWs. We have photos. (The Jap officer in charge had the only clean white shirt and a little Hitler mustache which must have been the style at the time.) I also recall some island with lots of caves near the end of WW2, we dropped bits of paper on the population with the instructions that "if you wish to surrender, bring this ticket with you and wave it around so we don't shoot."

If there were just times when our boys were to enraged to follow the rules, or the Japanese had snook one too many hand grenades in with the POWs lately, so we just got tired of taking prisoners, or it otherwise wasn't practical, how systematic was our breach of proper conduct relative to other allies?

the Aussies killed every Japanese they found...and vice versa...not sure of your point

471 austin_blue  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:35:32pm

re: #433 Bagua

But to be clear, I do not support the mistreatment of prisoners of war.

Ah! Then are you should be unhappy with the numerous prisoners under US control who have been questioned to death! Do you think the people who questioned them to death should be prosecuted for murdering them?

Just askin'!re: #443 iceweasel

I'm not disputing that Abu G etc endangers our troops. One of the primary (pragmatic) justifications for opposing torture and endorsing the good treatment of our captives is that any failure to do so inevitably endangers the lives of our troops and Americans generally.

Agreed. My point.

472 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:36:52pm

re: #457 austin_blue

You know, I have read that five times, and it still makes no sense. Is there a point of discussion in there? I didn't mention "good behavior". What are the organized AG types? Abu Ghraib?

So confused...

(By the way, this references my 421)

And to be clear; I believe Abu Ghraib was a disgrace, I remain incredulous that this was permitted to occur.

473 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:36:57pm

re: #467 jamesfirecat

Dude, just get some sleep. You'll be sharper after a nights rest. This is the wrong crowd to try to persuade when your mind is tired.

474 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:37:18pm

re: #462 Dark_Falcon

He meant AQ for Al Qaeda, which had already established its self in Iraq before Adu Ghraib happened. That baleful event caused a lot of anger towards us in Iraq, but it did not cause the enemy to escalate their tactics in any meaningful way.

I can find you a few military peeps saying that Abu G and similar US actions were basically a PR goldmine for AQ and a recruiting bonanza for them, DF. The only reason AQ didn't escalate is because they're basically now a bunch of nutjobs in caves and isolated sexually frustrated wackos. Local jihad (as in, lone wackos recruited) is the problem now, not as much global.

475 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:37:24pm

re: #459 iceweasel

OK. I wil lleave my GAZE on, and my dinger off.
For now.

476 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:37:42pm

re: #469 Bagua

Agreed, it is dehumanising, we are people behind these anonymous nics. I'm going to drop that term.

Moby should only be used rarely, such as following a banning or a series of posts that are over the line. JFC has come nowhere near that standard.

477 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:38:12pm

re: #471 austin_blue

That would depend on whether they were POWs or terrorists.

478 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:38:22pm

re: #472 Bagua

People forget that everything goes wrong in war, especially ill planned wars of choice. How we deal with the mistakes is the thing.

479 Mr. Crankypants  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:38:26pm

re: #475 Floral Giraffe

OK. I wil lleave my GAZE on, and my dinger off.
For now.

Is GAZE the equivelent of Talk to the Hand?

480 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:38:33pm

re: #447 albusteve

that's rude...

OK, I will back off.

481 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:38:48pm

re: #466 Dark_Falcon

It should, however, be noted that the rape at Abu Ghraib happened in defiance of US policy, not because of it. Rape has always been defined as out of bounds for interrogations.

Yes, of course. Also the person formally charged with rape at Abu G is being tried in a civilian court in Florida last I heard; he was working for a military contractor and therefore outside the military's jurisdiction.

482 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:38:51pm

re: #476 Dark_Falcon

Moby should only be used rarely, such as following a banning or a series of posts that are over the line. JFC has come nowhere near that standard.

What does Moby mean? Is it LGF specific or some sort of broader net thing?

483 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:38:59pm

re: #468 Slumbering Behemoth

Gawt-damn! That is the largest hyperbolic strawman I think I've ever seen. I think it just shat about sixteen Godzillas, it's that big.

"I don't think there is a limit. I know in the past we've dropped atomic weapons on civilian populations and I know we've read terrorist rights."

I thought he told me "no limits" and I interpreted that as "NO LIMITS" if I misunderstood him than I would very much like to apologize for that comment...

But I suppose I may have ended up wanting to think the worst of my opoonent because as PT Barnum says, I wanted to talk about individual actions as acceptable or unacceptable and he insisted we write global policy....

484 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:39:36pm

re: #469 Bagua

Agreed, it is dehumanising, we are people behind these anonymous nics.

I'm not.

485 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:39:51pm

re: #476 Dark_Falcon

Moby should only be used rarely, such as following a banning or a series of posts that are over the line. JFC has come nowhere near that standard.

Also, I believe he is just what he says he is, a young student. A bit too in your face at times, but a lot of young people are like that. Youth deserves more tolerance and patience in my opinion.

486 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:40:17pm

re: #474 iceweasel

I can find you a few military peeps saying that Abu G and similar US actions were basically a PR goldmine for AQ and a recruiting bonanza for them, DF. The only reason AQ didn't escalate is because they're basically now a bunch of nutjobs in caves and isolated sexually frustrated wackos. Local jihad (as in, lone wackos recruited) is the problem now, not as much global.

well what about it?...it happened and it was dealt with, and I think it violated basic rights and US Army policy...it's history now

487 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:40:43pm

re: #485 Bagua

Also, I believe he is just what he says he is, a young student. A bit too in your face at times, but a lot of young people are like that. Youth deserves more tolerance and patience in my opinion.

Quite Concur.

488 Aye Pod  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:40:50pm

re: #451 jamesfirecat

Guys, I've stated several times that I'm a liberal.

You can call me tactless and illmanered, and a bad speller or many other things, but if you look through my posts, I've never made a secret of which side I'm rooting for.

OMG it's true you're a - liberal.

489 firstinla  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:40:52pm

What's torture? How far is too far? What bullshit! When you are in the middle of a fire fight none of these idealist arguments come into play. As a man who has been in an actual combat situation (Viet Nam) I suggest you take all your theorizing and shove it. This has been one of the most nonsensical discussions I've seen on LGF. It isn't about what the terrorist do or what the Japanese or the Americans or the Russians or the Germans did. It's about killing the enemy before the enemy kills you. That is what war is about.

490 Soap_Man  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:40:58pm

re: #482 Jadespring

What does Moby mean? Is it LGF specific or some sort of broader net thing?

I was wondering the same thing. After some googling, I believe it is a liberal who pretends to be a conservative for the purpose of either making conservatives look bad or to try to start crazy rumors.

491 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:41:11pm

re: #484 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm not.

My mistake, you are a notable exception. I may also be a robot as has been alleged, but the details are classified.

492 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:41:39pm

re: #480 Floral Giraffe

OK, I will back off.

it's not against the law to be naive, that's all

493 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:41:52pm

re: #483 jamesfirecat

It was a dumb question to ask. 'Nuff said.

494 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:41:59pm

re: #488 Jimmah

OMG it's true you're a - liberal.

I think that's the best thing ou YouTube!
Thanks!

495 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:42:01pm

re: #489 firstinla

What's torture? How far is too far? What bullshit! When you are in the middle of a fire fight none of these idealist arguments come into play. As a man who has been in an actual combat situation (Viet Nam) I suggest you take all your theorizing and shove it. This has been one of the most nonsensical discussions I've seen on LGF. It isn't about what the terrorist do or what the Japanese or the Americans or the Russians or the Germans did. It's about killing the enemy before the enemy kills you. That is what war is about.

Is there a firefight going on in Gitmo right now?

496 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:42:13pm

re: #481 iceweasel

Yes, of course. Also the person formally charged with rape at Abu G is being tried in a civilian court in Florida last I heard; he was working for a military contractor and therefore outside the military's jurisdiction.

bust his ass

497 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:42:14pm

re: #489 firstinla

Well said. The words of experience and knowledge.

498 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:42:39pm

re: #492 albusteve

it's not against the law to be naive, that's all

But, sometimes the young ones need schooling.

499 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:42:47pm

re: #482 Jadespring

What does Moby mean? Is it LGF specific or some sort of broader net thing?

Mobys are liberals posing as extremist wacko righties to discredit the right generally. Strategy named for Moby, who endorsed it.

I must say I have never actually encountered a moby in the wild.

The LGF usage of it appears to have meant anything at all from 'person endorsing positions intended to make LGF look bad' to the ordinary meaning of 'internet troll' to 'liberal I don't like'.

500 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:43:04pm

re: #484 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm not.

bot?

501 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:43:24pm

re: #489 firstinla

Thank you for your service!
*salute*

502 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:43:29pm

I just dropped in though a quick scan of the converation tells me that folks disconnected by a generaton or two just don't understand the facts on the ground in the Pacific WWII. Were Japanese killed on sight? Absolutely. Were some taken prisoner? Yes, in the very rare event they were too wounded or fell to the weakness of self preservation. Why is this being debated?

It was certainly known by the participants, my dad was one, that capture by the Japanese was certain and horrible death. Bataan was no mystery nor was Wake to those at the time.

Yet some would condemn American fighting men, even today.

There is a whole new world of young and naive out there. Fortunately there is a volunteer military to insulate such 'thinking'.

Ignorant of the times, then and now, they are.

503 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:43:49pm

re: #403 Bagua

Sorry ausidor but that is just nonsense and demonisation of US troops who are risking their lives to protect us from sociopaths murderers. One doesn't have to exaggerate in order to oppose harsh interrogation, the folks sitting in Gitmo were not innocent boy scouts.

Where did I say one word about any of our troops, hmm...?
If you actually believe our troops had anything to do with setting policy for interrogation anywhere in our numerous detention facilities you are sadly misguided. Nice try on making it about the troops rather than the policy makers though, gotta give you credit for trying to shift the blame at least.

Bagua, am I the one you have picked to have your nightly rant/argument about this time?

Please...let it be me, at least I am able to defend myself without resorting to an ad-hominem war. ;)

(P.S. that ausador not ausidor)

504 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:43:54pm

re: #490 Soap_Man

I was wondering the same thing. After some googling, I believe it is a liberal who pretends to be a conservative for the purpose of either making conservatives look bad or to try to start crazy rumors.

Thanks. My google didn't get far enough beyond Moby the singer.

505 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:43:56pm

re: #493 Slumbering Behemoth

It was a dumb question to ask. 'Nuff said.

Yeah it was, I should have asked something sillier like "is it okay to reanimate our dead soldiers as cyborgs and send them off to war"

Nobody would have gotten offended by that....

506 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:44:21pm

re: #498 Floral Giraffe

But, sometimes the young ones need schooling.

Absolutely, and any discipline metered out by one such as yourself must be well deserved. You don't pick on anyone.

507 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:44:33pm

re: #482 Jadespring

What does Moby mean? Is it LGF specific or some sort of broader net thing?

"Moby" is term based off the musician of the same (stage) name. Moby gave an interview wherein he suggested that liberals should pose as conservatives and post crazy things on conservative websites to discredit them. Since then, peoplewho pose as members of the other faction to defame said faction have become known as "Mobys".

508 Girth  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:44:51pm

re: #489 firstinla

What's torture? How far is too far? What bullshit! When you are in the middle of a fire fight none of these idealist arguments come into play. As a man who has been in an actual combat situation (Viet Nam) I suggest you take all your theorizing and shove it. This has been one of the most nonsensical discussions I've seen on LGF. It isn't about what the terrorist do or what the Japanese or the Americans or the Russians or the Germans did. It's about killing the enemy before the enemy kills you. That is what war is about.

I agree. But this is not a conventional war and I think reasonable people can disagree about how to accomplish this.

509 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:44:54pm

re: #505 jamesfirecat

Yeah it was, I should have asked something sillier like "is it okay to reanimate our dead soldiers as cyborgs and send them off to war"

Nobody would have gotten offended by that...

Zombies have rights too ya know.

510 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:45:20pm

re: #506 Bagua

Thanks for that compliment!

511 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:45:26pm

re: #482 Jadespring

What does Moby mean? Is it LGF specific or some sort of broader net thing?

Famous douche-bag/musician encouraged people to go on "conservative" websites and post offensive, extremist nonsense while posing as "conservatives".

512 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:45:27pm

re: #509 Bagua

Zombies have rights too ya know.

Yes Reg.

513 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:46:02pm

re: #496 albusteve

bust his ass

I think the rapist in question may not be an American citizen either; I have to double check that. He was working for the US via a contractor.

514 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:47:01pm

re: #498 Floral Giraffe

But, sometimes the young ones need schooling.

I'm no nice guy and don't claim to be...but accusing people of being trolls and moby's is authoritarian...I reject it

515 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:47:10pm

re: #507 Dark_Falcon

re: #499 iceweasel

Great, thanks. That's jogging a vague memory of that interview now or people talking about that interview.

516 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:47:31pm

re: #507 Dark_Falcon

"Moby" is term based off the musician of the same (stage) name. Moby gave an interview wherein he suggested that liberals should pose as conservatives and post crazy things on conservative websites to discredit them. Since then, peoplewho pose as members of the other faction to defame said faction have become known as "Mobys".

I still don't understand how the LGF usage of it has been applied to obvious liberals, though.

517 firstinla  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:48:04pm

James, you are a 21 year old college student and have zero experience in life, in the real world. Gitmo exists because we are at war with an enemy that is determined to destroy everything we believe in. There is no such animal as a "civil" war.

518 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:48:27pm

re: #500 albusteve

bot?

No. The Thing that should not be.

519 Racer X  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:48:48pm

Fine.

What do you call someone who poses as a liberal and posts really stupid stuff intent on making liberals look bad?

520 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:49:08pm

re: #505 jamesfirecat

Yeah it was, I should have asked something sillier like "is it okay to reanimate our dead soldiers as cyborgs and send them off to war"

Nobody would have gotten offended by that...

Ah, Universal Soldier. That was a somewhat entertaining Jean-Claude van Damn movie.

521 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:49:29pm

re: #514 albusteve

well, sometimes...

522 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:49:39pm

re: #516 iceweasel

I still don't understand how the LGF usage of it has been applied to obvious liberals, though.

No idea. Still don't get how a guy a thread over thought I was a "passionate civil libertarian" because I was against waterboarding either.

523 austin_blue  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:49:48pm

re: #462 Dark_Falcon

He meant AQ for Al Qaeda, which had already established its self in Iraq before Adu Ghraib happened. That baleful event caused a lot of anger towards us in Iraq, but it did not cause the enemy to escalate their tactics in any meaningful way.

Well, DF, this time I am going to hammer you. Sorry. Al Queda was at the opposite end of anything that Saddam Hussein could tolerate. His secular vision of Sunni Islam was based on the great kings of the past. His was a secular culture that attempted to embrace the the East and the West. Was he a whack tyrant? Yes. But Baghdad was the most secular city in the Middle Eastern Arab world prior to 2003.

If we had just left the fucker alone, we would be out of Afghanistan (alright, maybe) and not have spent a trillion dollars overthrowing what was a relatively stable, though undesirable, regime. Lord knows, there are enough of those regimes around that we don't pull the "America! Fuck Yeah!"m attack on who deserve it.
re: #477 Bagua

That would depend on whether they were POWs or terrorists.

524 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:49:57pm

re: #519 Racer X

Fine.

What do you call someone who poses as a liberal and posts really stupid stuff intent on making liberals look bad?

I don't think we have a name for that yet.

Do we have a name for the person who beats up on new (especially liberal) posters?

525 austin_blue  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:50:28pm

re: #477 Bagua

That would depend on whether they were POWs or terrorists.

Definition?

526 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:50:46pm

re: #524 iceweasel

I don't think we have a name for that yet.

Do we have a name for the person who beats up on new (especially liberal) posters?

Floral Giraffe?
LOL!

527 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:50:56pm

re: #516 iceweasel

I still don't understand how the LGF usage of it has been applied to obvious liberals, though.

It has sometimes been used in error here. However, Charles has in times past traced some off the wall comments back to liberal websites, so the term does have some validity.

528 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:51:04pm

re: #510 Floral Giraffe

Thanks for that compliment!

You deserve recognition for your good conduct, we tend to focus on bad behaviour and give that the most attention.

529 Lidane  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:51:08pm

re: #482 Jadespring

What does Moby mean? Is it LGF specific or some sort of broader net thing?

It's a broader internet thing.

530 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:51:45pm

Ok I think I've picked up on what you guys are talking about.

Presuming I have it right, its just a whole different use of language. Theres a pretty big over 40/under 40 split on LGF, and things that people say that freak alot of people out don't faze us internet hipsters at all.

He probably doesn't even think of them as offensive until he puts on his hindsight glasses.

Hell I laughed at Vambo's 'flash-fried fetuses'.

531 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:51:50pm

re: #524 iceweasel

I don't think we have a name for that yet.

Do we have a name for the person who beats up on new (especially liberal) posters?

albusteve

532 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:52:29pm

re: #531 albusteve

ok I for one laughed :p

533 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:53:09pm

re: #517 firstinla

James, you are a 21 year old college student and have zero experience in life, in the real world. Gitmo exists because we are at war with an enemy that is determined to destroy everything we believe in. There is no such animal as a "civil" war.

According to a history channel show I saw, during his March to the Sea General Sherman used enemy prisoners to clear minefields by having them walk in front of his men.

We don't do that anymore.

Is it too much to hope that we can at least try to behave a little more civil with each war?

534 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:53:13pm

re: #525 austin_blue

Definition?

Combatants who do not quality for POW status.

535 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:53:21pm

re: #531 albusteve

albusteve

Too late, I snagged it!
Wait, was it a race for the win?
Tee hee...

536 darthstar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:53:45pm

re: #519 Racer X

Fine.

What do you call someone who poses as a liberal and posts really stupid stuff intent on making liberals look bad?

You call them a troll. Just as you would someone who pretends to be a conservative and yet calls the president a muslim.

537 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:53:45pm

re: #531 albusteve

albusteve

I updinged you anyway. :)

Here's some Laibach for you Steve-- it's Jimmah's influence on me:

538 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:54:15pm

I do not want to spend time coming up with harsh labels for ugly posting styles. I mean, past Troll and sock puppet, how much more do we want to care?
Just sayin...

539 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:54:25pm

re: #517 firstinla

damn kids, get off my lawn!

540 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:54:42pm

re: #523 austin_blue

How does that contradict what I said. Abu Ghraib broke more than two years after Saddam's overthrown by which time Al Qaeda had already moved into Iraq. I was strictly talking about post-invasion matters, not the actual decision to remove Saddam.

541 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:55:40pm

re: #533 jamesfirecat

According to a history channel show I saw, during his March to the Sea General Sherman used enemy prisoners to clear minefields by having them walk in front of his men.

We don't do that anymore.

Is it too much to hope that we can at least try to behave a little more civil with each war?

the US armed forces are the most civil killers in the world...idealism stops sooner or later when lives are at stake

542 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:56:04pm

re: #519 Racer X

Fine.

What do you call someone who poses as a liberal and posts really stupid stuff intent on making liberals look bad?

This may answer your question.

543 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:56:06pm

re: #530 windsagio

Ok I think I've picked up on what you guys are talking about.

Presuming I have it right, its just a whole different use of language. Theres a pretty big over 40/under 40 split on LGF, and things that people say that freak alot of people out don't faze us internet hipsters at all.

He probably doesn't even think of them as offensive until he puts on his hindsight glasses.

Hell I laughed at Vambo's 'flash-fried fetuses'.

It's true. We have a huge generational split. It doesn't even seem to be about generations, per se, but people who are more internet savvy or something. Lots of people here don't read or post at any political sites other than LGF, and that makes a big difference.
It makes for a really interesting difference, and good discussions, but also for weird cultural clashes at times.

544 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:56:10pm

re: #538 Rightwingconspirator

I do not want to spend time coming up with harsh labels for ugly posting styles. I mean, past Troll and sock puppet, how much more do we want to care?
Just sayin...

Human history is the history of coming up with insulting names for the people we don't like /are at war with.

"The Grasshopers"

"The gooks"

"The huns"

"The frogs"

"The limeys"

"Running dogs"

And so on and so forth with several that aren't fit to post here...

545 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:56:48pm

re: #541 albusteve

well, we do use landmines, most of Europe doesn't... They're not very civil.


How about this, where actually is the line you shouldn't cross in war? It has to be somewhere :p

546 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:56:52pm

re: #533 jamesfirecat

According to a history channel show I saw, during his March to the Sea General Sherman used enemy prisoners to clear minefields by having them walk in front of his men.

We don't do that anymore.

Is it too much to hope that we can at least try to behave a little more civil with each war?

It is not too much to ask and there is no question the American, British, Israeli and our other allies set high standards for moral conduct in war that is unique in human history.

Dealing with terrorist who have no nation, no declared war and whose agenda is the massacre of civilians is something that goes beyond the normal rules or war, the Geneva Convention and humanity itself. It is a dilemma for a modern, moral society to determine the rules of engagement.

547 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:57:13pm

re: #507 Dark_Falcon

"Moby" is term based off the musician of the same (stage) name. Moby gave an interview wherein he suggested that liberals should pose as conservatives and post crazy things on conservative websites to discredit them. Since then, peoplewho pose as members of the other faction to defame said faction have become known as "Mobys".

It's also an lazy label used by rightwing hardliners against someone who posts something they don't (want to) agree with. Calling someone a moby can avoid all that tedious discussion, the exchanging of views and facts, etc.

548 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:57:17pm

re: #538 Rightwingconspirator

I do not want to spend time coming up with harsh labels for ugly posting styles. I mean, past Troll and sock puppet, how much more do we want to care?
Just sayin...

Before the "great exodus" there was a site dictionary. It had AMAZING things on it, like Nekamah's (badly spelled on ,my part) Troll Hammer.
But, as a part of the "great exodus" we lost the dictionary.
Please feel free to correct me, if you recall it differently.
I'll go look for the Troll Hammer in my favorites.

549 Racer X  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:57:19pm

re: #542 Slumbering Behemoth

This may answer your question.

Sonofabitch!

You got me again.

550 darthstar  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:57:39pm

re: #542 Slumbering Behemoth

That's just wrong.

551 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:58:41pm

re: #537 iceweasel

I updinged you anyway. :)

Here's some Laibach for you Steve-- it's Jimmah's influence on me:


[Video]

harpsichords and chickens...can't beat beat that!

552 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:58:57pm

re: #520 Dark_Falcon

Ah, Universal Soldier. That was a somewhat entertaining Jean-Claude van Damn movie.

Bullshit. It was a somewhat entertaining Dolph Lundgren movie.

553 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:59:12pm

re: #540 Dark_Falcon

How does that contradict what I said. Abu Ghraib broke more than two years after Saddam's overthrown by which time Al Qaeda had already moved into Iraq. I was strictly talking about post-invasion matters, not the actual decision to remove Saddam.

Sigh. And because you had never heard of it until then (two years in), the locals hadn't? I don't think the pictures going stateside was the first time Iraqis realized some US agents (military, contractors) were mistreating them.

554 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:59:22pm

re: #546 Bagua

It is not too much to ask and there is no question the American, British, Israeli and our other allies set high standards for moral conduct in war that is unique in human history.

Dealing with terrorist who have no nation, no declared war and whose agenda is the massacre of civilians is something that goes beyond the normal rules or war, the Geneva Convention and humanity itself. It is a dilemma for a modern, moral society to determine the rules of engagement.

Agreed, it is a tricky matter, at least during the Cold War, both sides could agree to the idea of MAD....

555 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:59:47pm

re: #533 jamesfirecat

Have you taken a look at how much effort has gone into reducing the carnage when we do attack? Concrete bombs, ever improving precision, weapons that seek weapons as targets...

556 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:00:21pm

re: #536 darthstar

You call them a troll. Just as you would someone who pretends to be a conservative and yet calls the president a muslim.

That's not a troll. I agree with Albusteve, these terms are becoming meaningless.

557 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:00:29pm

re: #543 iceweasel

It's true. We have a huge generational split. It doesn't even seem to be about generations, per se, but people who are more internet savvy or something. Lots of people here don't read or post at any political sites other than LGF, and that makes a big difference.
It makes for a really interesting difference, and good discussions, but also for weird cultural clashes at times.

Ahhhhh, it is about "internet savy" or... "something" ...huh? Got it.
/Not really

558 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:00:38pm

re: #546 Bagua

It is not too much to ask and there is no question the American, British, Israeli and our other allies set high standards for moral conduct in war that is unique in human history.

Dealing with terrorist who have no nation, no declared war and whose agenda is the massacre of civilians is something that goes beyond the normal rules or war, the Geneva Convention and humanity itself. It is a dilemma for a modern, moral society to determine the rules of engagement.

Is this the part where conservatives pretend no one on earth has ever faced terrorists before?

559 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:01:03pm

re: #555 Rightwingconspirator

Have you taken a look at how much effort has gone into reducing the carnage when we do attack? Concrete bombs, ever improving precision, weapons that seek weapons as targets...

I think we're doing a very good job in the field.

I think its what we do with the people left alive who we take prisoner that we're f***ing at....

560 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:01:10pm

re: #544 jamesfirecat

Yeah. No thanks. Sorta got that out of my system in school.

561 austin_blue  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:01:33pm

re: #524 iceweasel

I don't think we have a name for that yet.

Do we have a name for the person who beats up on new (especially liberal) posters?

albusteve

re: #531 albusteve

albusteve

Nice ! Here's your job review for being, fundamentally, an individual who is incapable discussion and who gives no thought to any other line of reason! Well done! You have positioned yourself as a sociopath whose line of logic is impermeable to any other discourse!

Well played.

And, B'bye!

562 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:01:39pm

re: #544 jamesfirecat

Human history is the history of coming up with insulting names for the people we don't like /are at war with.

"The Grasshopers"

"The gooks"

"The huns"

"The frogs"

"The limeys"

"Running dogs"

And so on and so forth with several that aren't fit to post here...

Yes, if only we were more civil. Cripes.

563 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:01:44pm

re: #545 windsagio

well, we do use landmines, most of Europe doesn't... They're not very civil.

How about this, where actually is the line you shouldn't cross in war? It has to be somewhere :p

most of Europe is not at war...cluster bombs are pretty cool to...if you get in the way of these weapons, you are definitely a bad guy...so sorry

564 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:01:54pm

re: #549 Racer X

I was saving that for you, bro. I got a few more lying in wait. Your move.

565 Racer X  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:02:01pm

I have been using the new html5 to watch youtube videos for about a week now, and on a Mac this works much better.

Just sayin.

566 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:02:16pm

re: #554 jamesfirecat

Agreed, it is a tricky matter, at least during the Cold War, both sides could agree to the idea of MAD...

That's right, and fighting a conventional war against a nation state is very different than fighting against these random grouping of terrorists whose only goal seems to be to kill as many civilians as they can in order to terrorize those they hate. That we struggle with our conscience is one of the things that separates us from the terrorists.

567 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:02:28pm

re: #555 Rightwingconspirator

reminds me of a doonesbury from (I think Gulf war 1 or Bosnia), I can't find it now.

A general is giving a briefing and apologizing for these goofily tiny collateral damage things, like killed goats.

The reporters keep harassing him with examples, until finally, after one particularly stupid question, he goes "For God's Sake, there's a war on!"

The last panel is all the reporters thinking (finally!), and the general saying "The coalition deeply apologizes for my outburst.

568 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:03:06pm

re: #558 torrentprime

Is this the part where conservatives pretend no one on earth has ever faced terrorists before?

No, this is the part where you get downdinged for putting words into someone's mouth.

569 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:03:12pm

re: #560 Rightwingconspirator

Yeah. No thanks. Sorta got that out of my system in school.

Not saying its "right" I'm just saying don't be surprised when it happens.

570 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:03:24pm

re: #557 The Shadow Do

Ahhh, it is about "internet savy" or... "something" ...huh? Got it.
/Not really

There are people here who are more aware of 'net culture' than others. This does make a big difference in how people relate to each other.

For example, you know and I know that this wasn't a sarc tag on your part. But sarc tags are often very useful here to help convey meaning, given the wide disparity in cultural references here, one of them being the internets themselves.

571 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:04:09pm

re: #553 torrentprime

Sigh. And because you had never heard of it until then (two years in), the locals hadn't? I don't think the pictures going stateside was the first time Iraqis realized some US agents (military, contractors) were mistreating them.

so what?...what's your point?...nobody here will condone those activities

572 Aye Pod  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:04:17pm

Ma Wee Lamb

573 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:04:28pm

re: #558 torrentprime

Is this the part where conservatives pretend no one on earth has ever faced terrorists before?

Pretend? In what way? Modern terrorism is a rather unique phenomenon in the history of warfare. Though certainly we had such things as spies and saboteurs in prior conflicts, who likewise do not qualify for POW status.

574 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:04:58pm

re: #556 Slumbering Behemoth

they certainly have meaning, just people get lazy and abuse them.

You'll notice that people actually almost never really call people trolls on here, and if they do they get slapped, unless its brutally honest. Thats not meaningless >

re: #563 albusteve

working on that. Is that like 'if you were in front of my gun, you must've deserved to be shot', or am I missing something?

575 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:05:15pm

re: #566 Bagua

That's right, and fighting a conventional war against a nation state is very different than fighting against these random grouping of terrorists whose only goal seems to be to kill as many civilians as they can in order to terrorize those they hate. That we struggle with our conscience is one of the things that separates us from the terrorists.

No, acting on what our conscience tells us separates us from them. I don't really care if the maladjusts at Abu Ghraib "felt something" before they did what they did; the outcome was the same.

576 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:06:44pm

re: #548 Floral Giraffe

Can't find the "Troll Hammer". Sniff sniff, the names of the posters in my favorites has made me nostalgic. Kinda. Not for the ones who went to the stalker blog, though.

577 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:06:46pm

re: #573 Bagua

When would you say it started, the Munich? The IRA? The Iranian Revolution or maybe Beiruit?

No matter what modern terrorism at least 30 years old at this point. It didn't come into existance with 9/11.

578 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:06:51pm

re: #574 windsagio

Trolling is serious business. Just visit any homogeneous video game forum, you will see dedicated, professional trolls.

579 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:06:56pm

re: #575 torrentprime

No, acting on what our conscience tells us separates us from them. I don't really care if the maladjusts at Abu Ghraib "felt something" before they did what they did; the outcome was the same.

Personally I don't think its the the conscience that leads to actions like that, it's the backwards leaning lizard part of our brain....

Wow that comment would be perfectly logical and not offend anyone in ANY OTHER CONTEXT!

580 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:07:30pm

re: #578 Slumbering Behemoth

hell, visit any unmoderated politics blog.

People that come on LGF specifically to be disruptive last days at best, we're pretty lucky with that.

581 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:07:33pm

re: #549 Racer X

Sonofabitch!

You got me again.

Hee heee, you open his links?

582 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:07:36pm

I'm now a sociopath...woohoo!...that must be worth a lot of dingdongs baby...come get some!...hahaha!...man, people take this blog way too seriously

583 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:07:39pm

re: #575 torrentprime

No, acting on what our conscience tells us separates us from them. I don't really care if the maladjusts at Abu Ghraib "felt something" before they did what they did; the outcome was the same.

I think we all agree that there was no excuse for that behaviour. Struggling with one's conscience is needed prior to action, I am speaking in terms of those who set the rules in advance, not those hot in the field.

584 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:08:03pm

re: #571 albusteve

so what?...what's your point?...nobody here will condone those activities

A good thing falcon, austin, and bagua (and everyone else) weren't discussing that, then. Thanks for the misdirect attempt, tho; keeps everyone on their toes.

585 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:08:07pm

re: #579 jamesfirecat

see: Harvard and Stanford torture/prison studies.

586 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:08:57pm

re: #574 windsagio

they certainly have meaning, just people get lazy and abuse them.

You'll notice that people actually almost never really call people trolls on here, and if they do they get slapped, unless its brutally honest. Thats not meaningless >

re: #563 albusteve

working on that. Is that like 'if you were in front of my gun, you must've deserved to be shot', or am I missing something?

yes, you are missing something

587 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:08:59pm

re: #582 albusteve

I'm now a sociopath...woohoo!...that must be worth a lot of dingdongs baby...come get some!...hahaha!...man, people take this blog way too seriously

If Charles you didn't want us to take it seriously, he wouldn't let keep score.

Have you ever taken the time to compute your AKPP (Average Karma Per Post)?

588 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:09:03pm

re: #558 torrentprime

Is this the part where conservatives pretend no one on earth has ever faced terrorists before?

Yep, this is entirely new and has never, never, never occured in history before, not even once!!!1111eleven!

Sigh...an old saying comes to mind, "those who cannot remember history are doomed to repeat it", but that was said by some old guy a really long time ago, I think, so like, who cares?

589 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:09:55pm

re: #585 windsagio

see: Harvard and Stanford torture/prison studies.

Dear god yes. I heard about those on the Daily Show, ugly things happen when you let people do whatever they want...

590 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:10:05pm

re: #585 windsagio

see: Harvard and Stanford torture/prison studies.

Stanford especially. Within 3 days the 'guards' there were using many of the same techniques employed at Abu G, including naked pyramids and sexual humiliation.
Harvard-- do you mean Milgram? I think that's yale?

591 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:10:06pm

re: #586 albusteve

care to elaborate? I like to pretend I'm psychic, but I'm not really :(

592 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:10:08pm

re: #579 jamesfirecat

Personally I don't think its the the conscience that leads to actions like that, it's the backwards leaning lizard part of our brain...

Wow that comment would be perfectly logical and not offend anyone in ANY OTHER CONTEXT!

:)

Sorry, I was unclear. I was saying that it's irrelevant if the Abu Ghraib guards struggled with their conscience before they did what they did; they did it anyway. Struggling with our conscience is not enough; we have to live our values.

593 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:10:08pm

re: #584 torrentprime

A good thing falcon, austin, and bagua (and everyone else) weren't discussing that, then. Thanks for the misdirect attempt, tho; keeps everyone on their toes.

you continue to gripe...what of it?...blah blah

594 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:11:03pm

re: #590 iceweasel

lol, I think we've had this specific convo before :p

Yeah, Milgram

595 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:11:06pm

re: #585 windsagio

see: Harvard and Stanford torture/prison studies.

didn't they make those old 'Road' movies?

596 srb1976  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:11:26pm

I must be slow this evening....I go to put the Little Man back to bed, and now I can't even tell who is arguing with who (whom?)

Anyway, I'm starting to think that the only thing sick was Little Man sick of being in bed.....he says his nose is all better now...

597 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:11:41pm

re: #589 jamesfirecat

Dear god yes. I heard about those on the Daily Show, ugly things happen when you let people do whatever they want...

[Link: www.prisonexp.org...]

Check it out sometime when you have a few hours to spare and don't mind losing your lunch.

598 austin_blue  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:12:00pm

re: #427 albusteve

timeline maybe?...I don't think so

Really? Before you post a comment like that, Google is your friend!

599 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:12:02pm

re: #577 windsagio

When would you say it started, the Munich? The IRA? The Iranian Revolution or maybe Beiruit?

No matter what modern terrorism at least 30 years old at this point. It didn't come into existance with 9/11.

You may be younger than I, those are examples of what I would term 'modern terrorism. The genre was essentially invented by Arafat with incidents such as Munich and hijackings. However, there were many examples of terrorism by the Fellahin types prior to that, so no, it is not 'new', but the modern international form is somewhat novel, if not exactly new.

600 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:12:17pm

re: #578 Slumbering Behemoth

Trolling is serious business. Just visit any homogeneous video game forum, you will see dedicated, professional trolls.

There's a pun in there somewhere, but I can't top the gay jokes from earlier today.

601 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:12:20pm

re: #594 windsagio

lol, I think we've had this specific convo before :p

Yeah, Milgram

That's right! I thought it was you! :)

602 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:12:25pm

re: #587 jamesfirecat

If Charles you didn't want us to take it seriously, he wouldn't let keep score.

Have you ever taken the time to compute your AKPP (Average Karma Per Post)?

I'll leave that to busy bodies like you...I could care less, is there a prize in the end?

603 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:12:27pm

re: #592 torrentprime

:)

Sorry, I was unclear. I was saying that it's irrelevant if the Abu Ghraib guards struggled with their conscience before they did what they did; they did it anyway. Struggling with our conscience is not enough; we have to live our values.

That I actually agree with.

604 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:12:36pm

re: #570 iceweasel

There are people here who are more aware of 'net culture' than others. This does make a big difference in how people relate to each other.

For example, you know and I know that this wasn't a sarc tag on your part. But sarc tags are often very useful here to help convey meaning, given the wide disparity in cultural references here, one of them being the internets themselves.

I humbly bow to your net culturelness or some such...

/rube

605 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:12:51pm

re: #591 windsagio

care to elaborate? I like to pretend I'm psychic, but I'm not really :(

no

606 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:12:52pm

re: #595 albusteve

didn't they make those old 'Road' movies?

I don't recall there being any catchy musical numbers as part of those experiments though....


"Prisoners of love, blue skies above, can't keep our hearts in Jail!"

607 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:13:19pm

re: #599 Bagua

Hmm,

Modern terrorism is a rather unique phenomenon in the history of warfare.

I didn't wanna go too far back into guerilla tactics because it wouldn't make sense.

So you don't agree with the quote above?

608 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:13:23pm

re: #602 albusteve

I'll leave that to busy bodies like you...I could care less, is there a prize in the end?

You get a secret decoder ring. Did no one send you the memo?

609 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:13:24pm

re: #572 Jimmah

Ma Wee Lamb


[Video]

That video, and that song, are horrendous.
I love you madly. :)

610 Racer X  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:13:28pm

re: #581 Floral Giraffe

Hee heee, you open his links?

Yes!

SB has some good stuff he throws out on occasion. I'll get him back. I still think this one was the best.

611 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:13:31pm

re: #602 albusteve

I could care less

I believe that.

612 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:13:48pm

re: #598 austin_blue

Really? Before you post a comment like that, Google is your friend!

not that interested...I thought the head chopping came first

613 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:14:25pm

re: #602 albusteve

I'll leave that to busy bodies like you...I could care less, is there a prize in the end?

Not really, but it allows college students like me to kill time that we might have otherwise used to edit our term papers!

614 austin_blue  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:15:09pm

re: #534 Bagua

Combatants who do not quality for POW status.

Definition based =on the Geneva Conventions?

Really, you guys need to get your shit together and do a modicum of research!

615 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:15:25pm

re: #606 jamesfirecat

I don't recall there being any catchy musical numbers as part of those experiments though...

"Prisoners of love, blue skies above, can't keep our hearts in Jail!"

Ah, Mel Brooks. The man has really turned out some hilarious comedy and The Producers is a worthy part of that linage.

616 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:15:28pm

re: #608 Bagua

You get a secret decoder ring. Did no one send you the memo?

these younger posters must be in hog heaven, thinking they can punish posters with Charles cool ding system...surprise!

617 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:15:37pm

re: #604 The Shadow Do

its not a value judgement, its a cultural difference :p

Its also remarkably clear in how various people interact... You can tell whose comfortable with it and whose not just by looking at posts and dings.

The problem is that the cultural differences make for some ugly misunderstandings and fights...

618 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:15:43pm

re: #602 albusteve

You didn't get your toaster?
//

619 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:16:10pm

re: #607 windsagio

Hmm,

I didn't wanna go too far back into guerilla tactics because it wouldn't make sense.

So you don't agree with the quote above?

Modern terrorism is rather unique, though not unprecedented. Certainly the targeting of Airplanes does not predate aviation.

620 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:16:25pm

re: #605 albusteve

no

good to know that people are interested in actual discussion >>

621 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:16:50pm

re: #558 torrentprime

Is this the part where conservatives pretend no one on earth has ever faced terrorists before?

BTW I almost got bent out of shape over the "conservative" part of that post but I took a deep breath first. I suppose I have to abandon thinking of myself as conservative because the people who have taken over speaking up for that particular label are all nuts.

Just don't start badmouthing "liberal conservatives" or "fiscal moderates" because one of those might apply to me once I decide which one to use now.

/

622 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:17:01pm

re: #617 windsagio

its not a value judgement, its a cultural difference :p

Its also remarkably clear in how various people interact... You can tell whose comfortable with it and whose not just by looking at posts and dings.

The problem is that the cultural differences make for some ugly misunderstandings and fights...

Exactly. Well said.

623 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:17:02pm

re: #569 jamesfirecat


I'm not. Heh! I once roasted marshmallows in the flames of an AGW thread. Tasted fine. But I do hate to see this.

624 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:17:17pm

re: #583 Bagua

I think we all agree that there was no excuse for that behaviour. Struggling with one's conscience is needed prior to action, I am speaking in terms of those who set the rules in advance, not those hot in the field.

Valid point... but I would say it ups the obligation on acting morally in line with your stated values ("morally" kicks off a comparative morality discussion, rather not do that). Without the heat of combat, it's actually easier to set more humane ROE (I would think).

625 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:17:34pm

re: #608 Bagua

You get a secret decoder ring. Did no one send you the memo?

I've been robbed!
I want a secret decoder ring!
Sniff.
/

626 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:17:45pm

re: #619 Bagua

lol I agree with that.

How about this: Aside from technology (ie airplanes) what are the differences now that make dealing with this different than dealing with ancient guerilla warfare?

627 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:17:47pm

re: #618 Floral Giraffe

You didn't get your toaster?
//

I hear you get a free hair extender made of Charles' actual hair at five billion karma!

628 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:18:12pm

re: #611 torrentprime

I believe that.

you will catch on in time...til then grow up...this is an opinion blog, not a ding whore stroke fest for everyone

629 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:18:42pm

re: #627 jamesfirecat

what do you get at -5000000?


/man actually, it'd be impressive for someone to manage to get to that.

630 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:19:05pm

re: #610 Racer X

Yes!

SB has some good stuff he throws out on occasion. I'll get him back. I still think this one was the best.

YIKES. Did she grow a tail too?
I couldn't watch.

631 Racer X  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:19:16pm

re: #621 ausador

If you go too far over to the right or the left, you end up in the gutter. I'm content to sit here in the middle of the road (OK, maybe slightly to the right of the yellow line), and dodge the cars coming from both sides.

632 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:19:26pm

re: #613 jamesfirecat

Not really, but it allows college students like me to kill time that we might have otherwise used to edit our term papers!

well that's what I thought you slacker...Duke Nukem has a term for you but I forgot what it was

633 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:19:27pm

re: #629 windsagio

what do you get at -5000000?

/man actually, it'd be impressive for someone to manage to get to that.

Spacejesus might know!
/

634 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:19:30pm

re: #619 Bagua

Modern terrorism is rather unique, though not unprecedented. Certainly the targeting of Airplanes does not predate aviation.

True enough, but targeting forms of mass transportation doubtlessly goes back much further....

635 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:19:31pm

re: #628 albusteve

why stress over peoples dinging habits?

636 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:20:00pm

re: #621 ausador

BTW I almost got bent out of shape over the "conservative" part of that post but I took a deep breath first. I suppose I have to abandon thinking of myself as conservative because the people who have taken over speaking up for that particular label are all nuts.

Just don't start badmouthing "liberal conservatives" or "fiscal moderates" because one of those might apply to me once I decide which one to use now.

/

LOL. I'm a gay Republican who voted for Obama. Trust me, I get what it's like to be ISO a party or label.

637 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:20:29pm

re: #618 Floral Giraffe

You didn't get your toaster?
//

I'm down to hot dog tongs now...man, I must be hurtin

638 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:20:42pm

re: #629 windsagio

what do you get at -5000000?

/man actually, it'd be impressive for someone to manage to get to that.


I think its an old timey clock, at least I heard the package ticks.....

(That too tasteless?)

639 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:21:06pm

re: #638 jamesfirecat

not for me!

640 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:21:20pm

re: #614 austin_blue

Definition based =on the Geneva Conventions?

Really, you guys need to get your shit together and do a modicum of research!

Or perhaps you must, the Geneva convention (3&4) do not define an unlawful combatant. My definition is from the Military Commissions Act of 2006 which defined the term and the Celebici Act.

Do a bit of research please.

641 The Shadow Do  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:21:50pm

re: #617 windsagio

its not a value judgement, its a cultural difference :p

Its also remarkably clear in how various people interact... You can tell whose comfortable with it and whose not just by looking at posts and dings.

The problem is that the cultural differences make for some ugly misunderstandings and fights...

Like I said, obviously I am a rube and incapable of understanding the cultural differences presented in arguments here, being all like ... net-stupid, I guess. I will work on that lest I be subject to the humiliation of dings and such.

I certainly appreciate the wisdom so freely shared here.

642 austin_blue  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:21:50pm

re: #612 albusteve

not that interested...I thought the head chopping came first

Ah! Embrace your ignorance! Well Done !

643 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:22:19pm

re: #641 The Shadow Do

no need to get offended.

Discussing the meta is half the fun!

644 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:23:00pm

re: #636 torrentprime

LOL. I'm a gay Republican who voted for Obama. Trust me, I get what it's like to be ISO a party or label.

Gay Black Jewish Klansmen for tolerance and understanding!

[Link: www.frumsatire.net...]

645 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:23:47pm

re: #638 jamesfirecat

I think its an old timey clock, at least I heard the package ticks...

(That too tasteless?)

Of course in a few decades that joke won't work because no one will have heard of a clock that ticks....

646 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:23:55pm

re: #644 jamesfirecat

Gay Black Jewish Klansmen for tolerance and understanding!

[Link: www.frumsatire.net...]

this gets linked alot

647 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:24:12pm

re: #641 The Shadow Do

Like I said, obviously I am a rube and incapable of understanding the cultural differences presented in arguments here, being all like ... net-stupid, I guess. I will work on that lest I be subject to the humiliation of dings and such.

I certainly appreciate the wisdom so freely shared here.

Now you're just whining. People have been nice to you and all you have is random kvetching, about what exactly is unclear.

In other places on the intertubes, that emotion you're experiencing is known as butthurt.

648 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:24:34pm

re: #641 The Shadow Do

Like I said, obviously I am a rube and incapable of understanding the cultural differences presented in arguments here, being all like ... net-stupid, I guess. I will work on that lest I be subject to the humiliation of dings and such.

I certainly appreciate the wisdom so freely shared here.

you dunce!

649 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:25:02pm

re: #624 torrentprime

Valid point... but I would say it ups the obligation on acting morally in line with your stated values ("morally" kicks off a comparative morality discussion, rather not do that). Without the heat of combat, it's actually easier to set more humane ROE (I would think).

Of course, which is why there is so much debate on these issues within our society, military, judicial and military. We are a people of laws and humanity. Some of our enemies lack all conscience and humanity, we alternatively agonise over things they would not.

650 Aye Pod  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:25:02pm

re: #609 iceweasel

That video, and that song, are horrendous.
I love you madly. :)

Mutual, hon :) Repaying the bad music video debt that last one incurred to you (and the rest of society as well I suppose) with this :

651 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:26:03pm

RUBE BAGGERS!

652 Racer X  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:26:54pm
653 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:27:46pm

re: #649 Bagua

Of course, which is why there is so much debate on these issues within our society, military, judicial and military. We are a people of laws and humanity. Some of our enemies lack all conscience and humanity, we alternatively agonise over things they would not.

I agree, and it's one of the reasons I love my country and despise our enemies.

But, I restate, the bar we set for ourselves does not get passed with debate, discussion, or even agonizing over things. We clear the bar when we act as who we say we are.

(I'm not lecturing you (really!), but I think this point gets lost a lot)

654 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:28:02pm

re: #600 torrentprime

I meant it as "of the same or a similar kind or nature". In many game forums that I have lurked, there is a hive mind at work where all things "this" are good, and all things "that" are total suck-ass, craptastic abominations.

In such places, basic trolling is all too obvious, and quickly dismissed without comment. Thus, the truly serious trolls have distilled the art of trolling into a very refined craft. Saying something just outrageous enough to get replies, but just coherent enough to fly under the "troll radar". At least for a time.

655 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:28:50pm

re: #653 torrentprime

I agree, and it's one of the reasons I love my country and despise our enemies.

But, I restate, the bar we set for ourselves does not get passed with debate, discussion, or even agonizing over things. We clear the bar when we act as who we say we are.

(I'm not lecturing you (really!), but I think this point gets lost a lot)

I clear every bar I come to...just my nature I guess

656 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:29:19pm

re: #654 Slumbering Behemoth

I meant it as "of the same or a similar kind or nature". In many game forums that I have lurked, there is a hive mind at work where all things "this" are good, and all things "that" are total suck-ass, craptastic abominations.

In such places, basic trolling is all too obvious, and quickly dismissed without comment. Thus, the truly serious trolls have distilled the art of trolling into a very refined craft. Saying something just outrageous enough to get replies, but just coherent enough to fly under the "troll radar". At least for a time.

Never before have so few worked so hard to annoy so many!

657 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:29:55pm

re: #627 jamesfirecat

I hear you get a free hair extender made of Charles' actual hair at five billion karma!

658 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:30:00pm

re: #654 Slumbering Behemoth

I meant it as "of the same or a similar kind or nature". In many game forums that I have lurked, there is a hive mind at work where all things "this" are good, and all things "that" are total suck-ass, craptastic abominations.

In such places, basic trolling is all too obvious, and quickly dismissed without comment. Thus, the truly serious trolls have distilled the art of trolling into a very refined craft. Saying something just outrageous enough to get replies, but just coherent enough to fly under the "troll radar". At least for a time.

Damn. I knew I should have added a "i know what you meant; I'm being juvenile" disclaimer. I was actually trying to riff on what you said (which I agreed with) and throw out that teh ghey is one of those "this versus that" things on those very forums.

659 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:30:20pm

re: #654 Slumbering Behemoth

good trolling is a real art.

...

A vastly underappreciated art >

660 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:30:49pm

re: #623 Rightwingconspirator

I'm not. Heh! I once roasted marshmallows in the flames of an AGW thread. Tasted fine. But I do hate to see this.

Hell, that's nothing. Have you seen the footage of iceweasel throwing out her boyfriend from before she met Jimmah:

661 albusteve  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:31:17pm

I'm out like Zora Folley in seven

662 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:32:38pm

re: #610 Racer X

SB has some good stuff he throws out on occasion. I'll get him back.

Make it good, and catch me off guard. I am confident you can do both. I count on it.

663 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:32:42pm

re: #626 windsagio

lol I agree with that.

How about this: Aside from technology (ie airplanes) what are the differences now that make dealing with this different than dealing with ancient guerilla warfare?

I wouldn't go as far as ancient, my frame of reference for warfare is the modern era in which we live in which I would begin in 1899 in terms of warfare. I'm not aware of a good example of what we are dealing with from history.

664 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:32:59pm

re: #657 Floral Giraffe

Messed that up, nicely.

GAZE was my comment.

665 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:33:34pm

re: #657 Floral Giraffe

why is that offensive? I thought it was funny >

666 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:34:28pm

re: #659 windsagio

good trolling is a real art.

...

A vastly underappreciated art >

Heh. I assume all forum-warriors are familiar with the classic troll taxonomy:

[Link: redwing.hutman.net...]

It can be a lot of fun going through here and identifying people-- not least of all one's self.

667 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:34:48pm

re: #653 torrentprime

I agree, and it's one of the reasons I love my country and despise our enemies.

But, I restate, the bar we set for ourselves does not get passed with debate, discussion, or even agonizing over things. We clear the bar when we act as who we say we are.

(I'm not lecturing you (really!), but I think this point gets lost a lot)

Absolutely, our conduct is the measure of our morality, on both a personal and national level. That we should debate first, and then do something horrendous second is in no way exculpatory.

668 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:35:43pm

re: #658 torrentprime

My bad. I was pronouncing the word in my head, rather than reading it syllabically.

/Yeah, that's a real word. Look it up.

669 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:37:13pm

re: #666 iceweasel

man I love that site >>

670 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:37:18pm

re: #667 Bagua

Absolutely, our conduct is the measure of our morality, on both a personal and national level.

Well said!

671 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:37:55pm

re: #665 windsagio

It's icky.
Do you want hair extenders made from someone's hair?
There's also earlier history. Tonight & earlier.
It's a young one, with a mouth & not a lot of thought or comprehension.
I put it on GAZE.

672 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:38:47pm

re: #666 iceweasel

Heh. I assume all forum-warriors are familiar with the classic troll taxonomy:

[Link: redwing.hutman.net...]

It can be a lot of fun going through here and identifying people-- not least of all one's self.


Heh. Ice got the 666 post tonight!
;)

673 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:38:57pm

re: #670 torrentprime

Well said!

Thank you.

674 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:39:02pm

re: #671 Floral Giraffe

well that's a bit condescending innit? :p

675 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:39:28pm

re: #666 iceweasel

Heh. I assume all forum-warriors are familiar with the classic troll taxonomy:

[Link: redwing.hutman.net...]

It can be a lot of fun going through here and identifying people-- not least of all one's self.

I think I fit the Diplomat role, except for the getting burned part, and that only because of the uniformly high quality of posters here.

676 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:39:36pm

re: #672 Floral Giraffe

Heh. Ice got the 666 post tonight!
;)

Wheeee! I'm glad it was with that link too! That site is hilarious.

677 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:39:58pm

re: #674 windsagio

well that's a bit condescending innit? :p

So what?

678 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:40:18pm

re: #665 windsagio

why is that offensive? I thought it was funny >

Like I suspected evidently my previous comments have left him with a full reservoir of "GAZE" with my name on it.

Though hey, it makes more sense to have hair extensions made out of actual hair than some kind of synthetic hair doesn't it?

679 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:40:27pm

re: #677 Floral Giraffe

lol fair enough :p

680 Aye Pod  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:40:37pm

Goodnight folks :)

681 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:41:12pm

re: #678 jamesfirecat

The real expensive wigs use real human hair:

See:Gift of the Magi

682 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:41:29pm

re: #640 Bagua

Or perhaps you must, the Geneva convention (3&4) do not define an unlawful combatant. My definition is from the Military Commissions Act of 2006 which defined the term and the Celebici Act.

Do a bit of research please.

Yeah right because before that bullshit was passed enemy combatants caught out of uniform were classed as spies and could be summarily executed. They still can be, that rule has not changed, it is perfectly legal to put a gun to the back of their head and shoot them, or to hang them...

But you have never been allowed to torture them first, we hung Germans and Japanese for doing exactly that, but now because we have "high ideals and good intentions" it is ok if we do it too?

So, all you have to do is make up a new word like "unlawful combatant" and then you can write your own rules on how to treat them that include torture? Sorry but I call bullshit Bagua, it isn't like this is the first time we have ever fought a war against an enemy that didn't wear uniforms and hid amongst the population either, (see Vietnam).

683 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:41:47pm

re: #675 Dark_Falcon

I think I fit the Diplomat role, except for the getting burned part, and that only because of the uniformly high quality of posters here.

Oh I'd second that for you. That's definitely you!

I can see myself in several, and usually in an unflattering way!
I won't tell which one really nails me though. Jimmah spotted it. :P

684 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:42:20pm

re: #666 iceweasel

Heh. I assume all forum-warriors are familiar with the classic troll taxonomy:

[Link: redwing.hutman.net...]

It can be a lot of fun going through here and identifying people-- not least of all one's self.

Love it. Thanks.

I was an accidental troll once. I was doing some research and stumbled across a thread on a forum. Silly me didn't take a good look at the general nature and culture of the forum when I posted a brief comment about the specific topic. It wasn't even anything that I thought was controversial. Key word there is 'thought'. Boy or boy, I set off a sh*t storm.

685 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:43:49pm

re: #680 Jimmah

Sweet dreams! And may they come true for you tomorrow!

686 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:45:25pm

re: #683 iceweasel

there's generally 'what you wish you were' and 'what you really are', the lucky ones are both!

687 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:47:13pm

re: #675 Dark_Falcon

I think I fit the Diplomat role, except for the getting burned part, and that only because of the uniformly high quality of posters here.

Do believe I'm a bit of a Palooka given that I tend to end up getting shellacked about once a thread/day....


[Link: redwing.hutman.net...]

688 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:49:13pm

re: #686 windsagio

there's generally 'what you wish you were' and 'what you really are', the lucky ones are both!

Haha-- yes, exactly. I can see myself in several different ones at various unflattering moments.

Jimmah kinda nailed the one that's my overall character, I think-- although as we all know, love is blind. Somewhat, at least.

BBL.

689 Aye Pod  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:49:46pm

re: #683 iceweasel

Oh I'd second that for you. That's definitely you!

I can see myself in several, and usually in an unflattering way!
I won't tell which one really nails me though. Jimmah spotted it. :P

Just before I go...:

Hee - that would be this one :

[Link: redwing.hutman.net...]

:)

690 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:49:56pm

re: #652 Racer X

Goodnite.

Oh, that is quite soothing. Thanks for the tip.

691 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:49:58pm

re: #687 jamesfirecat

Do believe I'm a bit of a Palooka given that I tend to end up getting shellacked about once a thread/day...

[Link: redwing.hutman.net...]

I can see that. I'm not going to try to assign those roles, however. That could get decided dicey.

692 windsagio  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:50:33pm

re: #691 Dark_Falcon

yeah, its not good to tell other people what they are >>

693 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:50:50pm

re: #649 Bagua

Of course, which is why there is so much debate on these issues within our society, military, judicial and military. We are a people of laws and humanity. Some of our enemies lack all conscience and humanity, we alternatively agonise over things they would not.

Of course not, do you think our enemies are HUMAN? That they have thoughts and desires and dreams? Don't be fooled! They are all inhuman automatons who have only one desire, to crush America!

They are in no way human, they have no personal aspirations, no desires, no need for anything except to see America destroyed!!! They are completely unlike any enemy that ant country has ever faced before in the entire history of the world!

That is why we must all give up our own human rights to the government and ignore the protests of the entire rest of the world about our conduct. Because only by become more feared, more casually violent, and more inhuman than the terrorists can we win this battle!

/

694 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:52:40pm

re: #682 ausador

Yeah right because before that bullshit was passed enemy combatants caught out of uniform were classed as spies and could be summarily executed. They still can be, that rule has not changed, it is perfectly legal to put a gun to the back of their head and shoot them, or to hang them...

But you have never been allowed to torture them first, we hung Germans and Japanese for doing exactly that, but now because we have "high ideals and good intentions" it is ok if we do it too?

So, all you have to do is make up a new word like "unlawful combatant" and then you can write your own rules on how to treat them that include torture? Sorry but I call bullshit Bagua, it isn't like this is the first time we have ever fought a war against an enemy that didn't wear uniforms and hid amongst the population either, (see Vietnam).

I don't think it is as simple as "making up a new word". For legal issues we need a frame of reference, the current one includes the fourth Geneva Convention, the ICRC and the Military Commissions Act of 2006. What other legal conventions should we consider? Do we just go with how we feel at the time? We are a society of laws and are dealing with a changing world.

695 The Left  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:53:24pm

re: #691 Dark_Falcon

I can see that. I'm not going to try to assign those roles, however. That could get decided dicey.

Well I'll break that a bit. :) I think you're also this, in addition to the one you linked:

[Link: redwing.hutman.net...]

696 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:54:18pm

re: #691 Dark_Falcon

I can see that. I'm not going to try to assign those roles, however. That could get decided dicey.

Yeah nobody likes to get labled by somebody else, though we do seem to enjoy labeling ourselves.

Either way I hope I can work on being a little bit more humerous little bit less serious and with luck I'll find that magical mix of being too spacey to offend anyone while still being serious enough to get my point across...

697 Bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:54:33pm

re: #693 ausador

Of course not, do you think our enemies are HUMAN? That they have thoughts and desires and dreams? Don't be fooled! They are all inhuman automatons who have only one desire, to crush America!

They are in no way human, they have no personal aspirations, no desires, no need for anything except to see America destroyed!!! They are completely unlike any enemy that ant country has ever faced before in the entire history of the world!

That is why we must all give up our own human rights to the government and ignore the protests of the entire rest of the world about our conduct. Because only by become more feared, more casually violent, and more inhuman than the terrorists can we win this battle!

/

You are not addressing any of my views with that parody. You are speaking to a mirror.

698 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:55:09pm

re: #566 Bagua

That's right, and fighting a conventional war against a nation state is very different than fighting against these random grouping of terrorists whose only goal seems to be to kill as many civilians as they can in order to terrorize those they hate. That we struggle with our conscience is one of the things that separates us from the terrorists.

Respectfully, a lot of people I see posting here on this subject don't seem to struggle very much.

699 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 10:58:46pm

Night all. I just realized it's 2am. That means only 5 hours of sleep before that dog gets me up.

700 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 11:01:21pm

re: #695 iceweasel

Well I'll break that a bit. :) I think you're also this, in addition to the one you linked:

[Link: redwing.hutman.net...]

Sometimes, but I do sometimes throw elbows when I think someone is way over the line and brings nothing to the table. Thus, Bagua and Jimmah, both of whom have real insights and useful information, will never catch a hard shot from me. But I have been known to fling mud at trolls who deserve, but even then I'll usually give someone another chance.

701 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 11:04:53pm

re: #694 Bagua

I don't think it is as simple as "making up a new word". For legal issues we need a frame of reference, the current one includes the fourth Geneva Convention, the ICRC and the Military Commissions Act of 2006. What other legal conventions should we consider? Do we just go with how we feel at the time? We are a society of laws and are dealing with a changing world.

It isn't the world the changed so much as our leadership and our justice department under that leadership. We aren't facing anything new at all, except exxagerated fear and overreaction to it in high places.

The military commissions act is a completely unconstitutional piece of trash that should and hopefully will fall under constitutional challenge. We makes friends by standing tall and being tough, we make enemies by violateing the norm on ethics and acting scared.

Which way should go is not any struggle at all for me to figure out, I'm surprised that your having such a problem with it.

702 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 11:05:29pm

re: #694 Bagua

I don't think it is as simple as "making up a new word". For legal issues we need a frame of reference, the current one includes the fourth Geneva Convention, the ICRC and the Military Commissions Act of 2006. What other legal conventions should we consider? Do we just go with how we feel at the time? We are a society of laws and are dealing with a changing world.

I cannot speak for ausador, but my take on it is that merely wrapping something in a legal framework and labeling someone a word that means "we can treat you worse in such-and-such a way" doesn't make it right. But you and I have already had (and agreed in!) a conversation about living up to our values, and that seems to be where the debate would go next anyway.

703 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 11:13:04pm

Presentation and meeting tomorrow canceled (woohoo), and therefore I'm closing the laptop and heading for bed. Night

704 bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 11:17:31pm

Ausador, just to clarify; When I say some of our enemies lack conscience and humanity, I am using the primary definition of the quality of or state of being humane, not that they are not human which is another way the word can be used. Perhaps that was why you wrote what you did.

705 bagua  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 11:23:10pm

re: #702 torrentprime

I cannot speak for ausador, but my take on it is that merely wrapping something in a legal framework and labeling someone a word that means "we can treat you worse in such-and-such a way" doesn't make it right. But you and I have already had (and agreed in!) a conversation about living up to our values, and that seems to be where the debate would go next anyway.

Yes I see your point, but my position is that we have such things as laws, treaties and conventions that we follow being a modern society under the rule of law. We are now presented with this reality of terrorism, and there is real debate on the issue of how a terrorist is regarded under the Geneva convention that does not clearly address this circumstance.

Thus we need to consider the legal definition and our obligations both in terms of international conventions and our national law. It is a thorny issue as they say.

706 Locker  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 11:39:10pm

Jumping in way late but I just got done reading the entire article and it was great. Thank you so much for sharing this as my grandma actually reads Newsweek and might actually accept some off this information.

I'm sure some in 700ish replies already quoted this but the final bit of the article is my fav part:

That doesn't say much for the state of the right in America. The tea partiers' tricornered hat is supposed to be a symbol of patriotism and constitutional first principles. But when you take a closer look, all you find is a helmet made of tin foil.

Hilarious.

707 ryannon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:47:33am

re: #194 The Sanity Inspector

re: #519 Racer X

Fine.

What do you call someone who poses as a liberal and posts really stupid stuff intent on making liberals look bad?

Bat-shit crazy

708 ryannon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:57:51am

re: #548 Floral Giraffe

Before the "great exodus" there was a site dictionary. It had AMAZING things on it, like Nekamah's (badly spelled on ,my part) Troll Hammer.
But, as a part of the "great exodus" we lost the dictionary.
Please feel free to correct me, if you recall it differently.
I'll go look for the Troll Hammer in my favorites.

The Troll Hammer is permanently posted within the 'Resources' tab on the upper left column....

709 hugh59  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:25:01am

Last week it was the poll sponsored by Daily Kos implying that conservatives are dominated by people with crazy motivations. This week it is a report from Newsweek that the Tea Party convention is filled with people who hold crazy conspiracy theories.

Why is it that so many people on the left (and the host of this blog in particular) insist on these personal attacks against the people they disagree with? I also see frequent misrepresentations of opposition ideas, arguments and positions in order to make them look extreme and stupid. It looks to me like a strategy of dehumanizing the opposition so that you have an excuse for ignoring them.

The "conservatives are stupid" or "conservatives are evil" chant is getting old. I am tired of seeing my views misrepresented. I am tired of hearing people tell me that they KNOW what my views are and then argue against some strange melange of positions that no one in their right mind would support.

There are plenty of good liberals and progressives out there. I have spent a lot of time sharing ideas with them. Good political thinking starts when you see the opposition as the people they really are. Learn from them. Find out what their positions really are.

710 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:47:29am

re: #709 hugh59

As a general proposition: placard-waving and slogan-shouting demonstrators, whether on the left or on the right, make good news clips and sound bites for the MSM and political commentators alike. Furthermore, the current leadership void in the GOP has provided an open field for the tea partiers to hijack the conservative agenda.
And so on and so forth.

711 suchislife  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:49:10am

Adding to the discussion about how to convince a conspiracy theorist/why people believe these things, here's my take on it: Mosh said that people feel they have been lied to. It seems to me that there are basically four reasons to feel that way,
1. someone lies all the time and you wise up,
2. you yourself (or your group) lie a lot, and you know this, but you can't square it with your view of yourself (or the people you care about), so you push it on your opponent/the other, because that way, you feel like you're fighting against lying, so you can't really be a liar.
3. you feel inferior, you believe that you can never get the other to respect you like you (against your will) respect them, because deep down, you do not respect yourself, so you fight this by indulge in a fantasy about how they wrong you so grieviously that you then have the superiority of rightousness.
4. you gain advantages (prestige, love, financial rewards, influence) from agreeing with the enemy/friend paradigm of your group, and you're insulated from the cost (this is why homophobia diminishes when people are confronted with actual out gay persons).

If all these are factors, then giving information can only work on 1 and partly on 4. But sometimes, the boost of confidence a conspiracy theorist gets from accepting a piece of actual researched information allows them to overcome 2 and 3 (rarely to the point of acknowledging them as factors when looking back), and praise for these people changes the math on 4.

712 suchislife  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:58:09am

re: #711 suchislife

Thought about 1 a bit more, and I should add: wise up and often go overboard into either juvenile/old man cynicism (it's all lies, why do you even bother, you fooll!!1!!) or adopting the partisan blinkers of the cruzader.

713 huggy77  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 5:03:29am

i heard there was conspiracy theorists talking about middle class tax hikes, even though during the presidential election we where told there would absolutely be none of those, that all we had to do was tax the rich in business.

714 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 5:51:07am

re: #709 hugh59


Why is it that so many people on the left (and the host of this blog in particular) insist on these personal attacks against the people they disagree with? I also see frequent misrepresentations of opposition ideas, arguments and positions in order to make them look extreme and stupid. It looks to me like a strategy of dehumanizing the opposition so that you have an excuse for ignoring them.

The "conservatives are stupid" or "conservatives are evil" chant is getting old. I am tired of seeing my views misrepresented. I am tired of hearing people tell me that they KNOW what my views are and then argue against some strange melange of positions that no one in their right mind would support.

Could it be that the personal attacks, when they may be personal, are against some strange melange of positions that nobody in their right mind would support?

Could it be that you share some of that melange since you seem to think any attack on them is a personal attack against you?

Could it be that when you defend the lack of criticism from conservatives of this melange, you think it is you being attacked?

Have you attacked this melange of loonies anywhere else, other than at LGF at 2am?

715 Odahi  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:42:58am

Minimize the Tea Party movement. Marginalize the people who take part. Fine. Here's PART OF my take on it. Look at Congressional approval ratings. What are they? Over 60% disapproval. That ain't all fringe kooks. What is the total disapproval rate for the Health Care Reform bill? That aiin't all kooks, either. And the Left can talk about "constructive bipartisanship" all they want, people are starting to see through that. Holding hearings in the middle of the night, changing the very locks on hearing room doors, the "I won" attitude, "We WILL have a health care bill." Does ANYone remember John McCain and the "gang of 14?" Remember why that was even discussed? The DEMOCRATS were so obstinate in filibustering all judicial nominees that the "nuclear option" was almost imposed. The Republicans have NOT been the "Party of No" on health care- there have been at least 35 proposals from the Right side of the aisle, all of which have been scorned or ignored. Bipartisanship my aching butt! The Dems never wanted or needed bipartisan support of Health Care. They just wanted to have someone to share the blame. They OWN this bill, and the policies of this Administration. Now they see how unpopular it is, and they minimize and denigrate those who oppose them. Not all who oppose them are Tea Partiers, and not all Tea Partiers are loons. BOTH parties need to get candidates in place who will adhere to the Constitution (campaign finance reform, anyone?) and show some responsiveness to their constituents. "We know this is unpopular, but we're doing it anyway" is not an option. It just shows me that you do NOT represent me. And that is why I am advising that people vote out the incumbents, even if you vote in someone from the same party, it shows them that we ARE paying attention to what they do, and that THEY had best start paying attention to their constituents.

716 CarryOn  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:36:43am

All of the bashing in the world is not going to stop concerned Americans from organizing and trying to hold this government accountable.
We aren't going away, even if there are crazies in the 'movement'. There are crazies in every single political group the nation over. Small fringes don't matter, except to fuel hate like here at LGF.

717 sffilk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:49:53am

This is more than just scary.........

718 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:02:29am

re: #716 CarryOn

All of the bashing in the world is not going to stop concerned Americans from organizing and trying to hold this government accountable.
We aren't going away, even if there are crazies in the 'movement'. There are crazies in every single political group the nation over. Small fringes don't matter, except to fuel hate like here at LGF.

Congratulations, you joined the party here just in time to help clean up, grab a broom, you missed some fun.


When birther speeches are getting standing ovations at your party's convention it's no longer a "small fringe" by any reasonable definition.

719 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:18:23am

re: #716 CarryOn

Hey, you're back!
So, it doesn't bother you that the crazies run the tea parties? Not at all? It doesn't bother you that because the leadership of the tea parties is nuts that it diminishes your statements?

720 webevintage  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:44:02am

re: #716 CarryOn

All of the bashing in the world is not going to stop concerned Americans from organizing and trying to hold this government accountable.
We aren't going away, even if there are crazies in the 'movement'. There are crazies in every single political group the nation over. Small fringes don't matter, except to fuel hate like here at LGF.

PLEASE, please tell me what the Tea Party is about?
Is it small gov't except when it pertains to the personal, private lives of Americans? I'm asking because at first it looked like it might be a secular movement but now it seem to be all tied up in religon.
I being serious, all I see is hate for the President and hate for all things having to do with the gov't and I don't see any solutions except to be really, really angry and talk about revolution.

721 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:59:21am

re: #716 CarryOn

All of the bashing in the world is not going to stop concerned Americans from organizing and trying to hold this government accountable.
We aren't going away, even if there are crazies in the 'movement'. There are crazies in every single political group the nation over. Small fringes don't matter, except to fuel hate like here at LGF.

I think that some of the problem may be contained in your phrase 'hold this government accountable'. Not 'vote in better representative'. Not 'persuade this government to adopt solid fiscal policies'. But 'hold accountable', which I suspect really just means 'complain about with increading hysteria'.

My perception is that the crazies run the 'movement'. Convince me otherwise.

722 Bulldoglover100  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:12:23am

The biggest hope for the Obama people is that the GOP will run Palin against him. As a Republican I would vote for Obama before I woul vote for someone I truly think is a wack job. Her lies alone, in the face of empirical fact, are enough to frighten 90% of the Independents out there into voting Obama.
I mean really the majority of these teabagger claims are so uneducated as to be actually form pity from people who have educated their selves to the facts. They have become a joke, they have become thought of as the deseprate people in this country who are just not happy with either a black man in office, change or they just simply enjoy the feeling they get rom their anger.

723 Bulldoglover100  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:16:09am

re: #714 Naso Tang

I agree that probably the majority of people in this country are unhappy but it is the minority who spout stupid junk that makes them look like idiots and the MSM shows the world the wack jobs. I mean come on Palin? They are using her as big story simply because she is and does stupid things. Mean while our congress does nothing to help the people and they are not held to task because the MSM is too busy running up their ratings by showing the entertainment.

724 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:46:39pm

re: #381 austin_blue

No matter how impressive a car may be, it isn't going to make a sizable dent in the big picture. Its one small part, but by no means a silver bullet.

725 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:13:13pm

re: #351 jamesfirecat

Would you like it if our Christian prisoners were denied a chance to maintain their Christian rituals?

Or our Jewish soldiers were forced to eat non kosher food?

I never said deny anyone their right to worship. But the taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for the props so prisoners can pray in their own preferred manner. Would you be OK with having to paint Pentastars on the floor of a satanist's cell? Should a warden keep a collection of rosaries on hand in case a Catholic prisoner wanted one? Freedom of religion doesn't equate to taxpayers footing the bill. I would apply the same standards to all prisoners. As for your question about Jewish soldiers, thats a completely different question. Funny that you would compare Jewish soldiers to Islamic terrorist prisoners.

But if you were talking about prisoners, then I say no. And that would go for anyone who wants a special diet in prison.

726 Buck  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:28:59pm

re: #718 jamesfirecat

Congratulations, you joined the party here just in time to help clean up, grab a broom, you missed some fun.

When birther speeches are getting standing ovations at your party's convention it's no longer a "small fringe" by any reasonable definition.

How many people were in the room giving a standing O in relation to the number of people who self identify to be supporters of the movement?

You don't know. There have been demonstrated support in the Democratic party for far left issues, but it would be wrong to call the Democratic Party the party of Cindy Sheehan.

It might make you feel better to think that they all are nutzo... but you will be wrong.

Four years ago, how much support was there for Bush is a war criminal? How much for GWB stole the 2000 election? How many thought that GWB was a puppet of (fill in blank)... GWB was an idiot... GWB got preferential treatment at the Guard. In 2003 how many democrats were watching "Loose Change" and thinking "Hey this guy makes sense?" How many crazies got a Standing O at the Kos Convention? How many democrats gave Michael Moore a standing ovation at the Academy Awards? Is there really a different between F911, Loose Change and Birthers?


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Melting of Juneau Icefield Rapidly Accelerating, Study Concludes The melting of Southeast Alaska’s Juneau Icefield, source of more than 1,000 glaciers, is accelerating, shrinking 4.6 times faster than it was in the 1980s, according to a new study. Researchers tracked snow levels in the nearly 1,500-square mile ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 81 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
The Good Liars at Miami Trump Rally [VIDEO] Jason and Davram talk with Trump supporters about art, Mike Lindell, who is really president and more! SUPPORT US: herohero.co SEE THE GOOD LIARS LIVE!LOS ANGELES, CA squadup.com SUBSCRIBE TO OUR AUDIO PODCAST:Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.comSpotify: open.spotify.comJoin this channel to ...
teleskiguy
3 weeks ago
Views: 884 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0