Pastors Celebrate Charles Darwin

Religion • Views: 6,301

Laurie Lebo (author of The Devil in Dover: An Insider’s Story of Dogma v. Darwin in Small-town America) has a piece at Religion Dispatches on a biologist’s effort to get clergy on board in the fight against fundamentalist creationism: Evolution Sunday: Pastors Celebrate Darwin.

It’s been 150 years since Charles Darwin wrote On the Origin of Species, putting forth the concept that natural selection is evolution’s driving force.

Few ideas have been so influential. The field of biology has been built upon Darwin’s theory, with famed geneticist Theodosius Dobzhansky going so far as to write, in 1973, that “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.”

Yet, a century and a half after Origin, America is still arguing about whether man is descended from ape-like ancestors or that the Book of Genesis is life’s literal blueprint. While there is virtually no debate over the truth of evolution in the scientific community, fundamentalists remain unswayed and continue their assault on teaching evolution in science class.

Michael Zimmerman, dean of Butler University’s College of Liberal Arts and Sciences in Indiana and an evolutionary biologist by training, thinks the best way to change this mindset is for scientists to step back from the debate and hand the reins over to religious leaders.

This Feb. 12 will be Darwin’s 200th birthday. Three days later, as part of Evolution Sunday, a holiday Zimmerman created, pastors around the world will be speaking from the pulpit about Darwin’s contribution to our understanding of the world.

Zimmerman is also the founder of The Clergy Letter Project. The letter in question, now signed by more than 11,000 religious leaders, states that those signing it accept evolution as a foundational scientific truth:

We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris.

The full text of the letter can be found here.

This is an excellent idea, and LGF supports it fully. To quote the sage, Lao Stinky:

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.
Do not trust those who insist otherwise.

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867 comments
1 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:38:14pm

Sounds good to me. Reality denial can only last so long.

2 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:39:10pm

Y'know, I don't really need a lecture on evolution from my local clergy, who aren't likely to know much about it anyway, not because they're opposed, just because they are not scientists, have totally other concerns.

3 freetoken  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:39:15pm

Coyne will not be pleased.

4 HelloDare  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:39:34pm

I wonder how many down dings this benign thread will get?

5 Racer X  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:39:44pm

The Milky Way Over Mauna Kea

6 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:39:44pm

Meanwhile....

Creationists to Mark 'Darwin Day' with Anti-Evolution Conference

While hundreds of celebrations worldwide will be marking the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin's birth beginning in February, one creationist ministry will be holding conferences to refute the famed scientist's theory of evolution.

Answers in Genesis, which runs the Creation Museum near Cincinnati, Ky., will host two free national conferences to help Christians defend their faith against a theory that the ministry sees as running counter to Scripture.

7 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:40:33pm

re: #4 HelloDare

I wonder how many down dings this benign thread will get?

I can guess at least two from recent threads.

8 kingkenrod  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:41:05pm

I don't want scientists proselytizing religion, and I don't want pastors preaching science. I don't go to a mechanic to get my teeth cleaned.

9 HelloDare  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:41:09pm

re: #7 CynicalConservative

I can guess at least two from recent threads.

You're just being cynical.

10 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:41:29pm

re: #1 Salamantis

Sounds good to me. Reality denial can only last so long.

Agreed. Though there are bound to be trolls on this thread who will try. I'm glad you're here, Sal. We need you to smack down the trolls when they show up.

11 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:42:24pm

re: #9 HelloDare

You're just being cynical.

Why, thank you for noticing!

Definitely could be a popcorn-worthy thread.

12 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:42:46pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

Meanwhile....

Creationists to Mark 'Darwin Day' with Anti-Evolution Conference

Conference at the Creation Museum = Epic Fail.

13 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:43:10pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Though there are bound to be trolls on this thread who will try. I'm glad you're here, Sal. We need you to smack down the trolls when they show up.

There are plenty of people on LGF who can do that...but I like being one of them...;~)

14 monkeytime  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:43:54pm

Finally! and AMEN!

15 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:44:12pm

re: #2 itellu3times

re: #8 kingkenrod

Funny you both have similar avatars and comments.

While I don't disagree with you two per se, I think it's important that rational Christians stand up to fundamentalist creationists. It's important to the faith, and it's important to science.

16 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:44:25pm

re: #13 Salamantis

There are plenty of people on LGF who can do that...but I like being one of them...;~)

You are one of the best two in terms of creationist clubbing (the other is Sharmuta).

17 HelloDare  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:44:32pm

re: #8 kingkenrod

I don't want scientists proselytizing religion, and I don't want pastors preaching science. I don't go to a mechanic to get my teeth cleaned.

I wouldn't call it proselytizing. It's the creationist that brought religion into evolution.

18 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:44:33pm

The pastors are not "preaching science." They're telling their congregations that they accept the theory of evolution as valid science, in contrast to the fundamentalists who teach their followers that "Darwinism" leads to atheism and hellfire.

19 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:46:23pm

re: #18 Charles

in contrast to the fundamentalists who teach their followers that "Darwinism" leads to atheism and hellfire.

Paging stretch?

20 monkeytime  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:46:27pm

I can't believe that we have to fight this in this day and age. :>(

Science lovers of all beliefs UNITE!

21 FrogMarch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:46:34pm

Darwin is not the enemy.

22 HelloDare  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:47:03pm

Larry King is a living fossil and he believes in evolution. He was there.

23 Basho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:48:27pm

University of Vermont makes an embarrassing decision:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

24 Bumr50  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:49:04pm

Bravo!

25 HelloDare  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:49:43pm

re: #23 Basho

University of Vermont makes an embarrassing decision:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

Bern Stein makes my eyes turn red.

26 rightwinger3  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:49:52pm

re: #20 monkeytime

I can't believe that we have to fight this in this day and age. :>(

Science lovers of all beliefs UNITE!

monkeytime, we still have to fight about the moon landing and the Twin Towers. Troof!

27 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:49:59pm

The incredible thing is, this debate has been going on ever since the day On the Origin of Species was published in 1859.

Actually, scratch that: the debate against Darwin even preceded the publication of the book, and dated from the first presentation of his idea in a public forum (in 1858), many months before the book actually came out.

From that day to this, the argument has not changed one bit. It's exactly the same. And the underlying phobias are exactly the same, though nowadays the creationists imagine they are better at hiding them.

Basically, their position comes down to this, unaltered for 150 years:

"I ain't no monkey!"

28 celtic templar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:50:17pm

re: #18 Charles

This is accepted in Catholicism today (I posted this last night, but I feel the need to faithfully defend my religion):

[Link: www.catholic.com...]

Science and Religion


The Catholic Church has always taught that "no real disagreement can exist between the theologian and the scientist provided each keeps within his own limits. . . . If nevertheless there is a disagreement . . . it should be remembered that the sacred writers, or more truly ‘the Spirit of God who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men such truths (as the inner structure of visible objects) which do not help anyone to salvation’; and that, for this reason, rather than trying to provide a scientific exposition of nature, they sometimes describe and treat these matters either in a somewhat figurative language or as the common manner of speech those times required, and indeed still requires nowadays in everyday life, even amongst most learned people" (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus 18).

As the Catechism puts it, "Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things the of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are" (CCC 159). The Catholic Church has no fear of science or scientific discovery.

29 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:51:23pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Though there are bound to be trolls on this thread who will try. I'm glad you're here, Sal. We need you to smack down the trolls when they show up.

I'm trolling for some gun talk....
:)

30 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:51:37pm

re: #15 Sharmuta

re: #8 kingkenrod

Funny you both have similar avatars and comments.

Hey, wassup with that? I mean the avatars.

I thought there was someone else using the same picture recently, too.

On the comments, well, er, I'm not sockpuppeting myself, Charles can check the IPs.

31 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:51:41pm

Or, to phrase it 1858-style:

I, sir, refuse to recognize that I am a monkey."

32 jaunte  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:53:19pm

re: #31 zombie

There may be another layer to it:
"If we're all monkeys, what's stopping that bigger monkey from taking my stuff?"

33 angst  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:53:30pm

I liked this comment from Zimmerman regarding Richard Dawkins:

He is a proselytizing atheist, who uses his position as a scientist to discuss atheism.

I personally have always thought it's funny to have a non-believer tell a person of faith the circumstances under which they should practice their faith.

34 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:53:59pm

re: #27 zombie

Actually- when Origins reached American shores, the fundamentalists were busy trying to stop Strauss' Life of Jesus Critically Examined.

35 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:54:18pm

re: #26 rightwinger3

monkeytime, we still have to fight about the moon landing and the Twin Towers. Troof!

What's to argue about? Everyone knows that the Magic Bullet missed Kennedy's head, flew out into space and entered orbit, and six years later knocked the Apollo craft off course, where it failed to reach the moon, and eventually crashed to Earth on September 11, 2001, destroying Building 7 of the World Trade Center -- as planned.

36 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:55:05pm

re: #18 Charles

The pastors are not "preaching science." They're telling their congregations that they accept the theory of evolution as valid science, in contrast to the fundamentalists who teach their followers that "Darwinism" leads to atheism and hellfire.

I got that part, and it's encouraging to say the least.
Here's the part that bothers me:

Michael Zimmerman, dean of Butler University’s College of Liberal Arts and Sciences in Indiana and an evolutionary biologist by training, thinks the best way to change this mindset is for scientists to step back from the debate and hand the reins over to religious leaders.


Who gets to decide who the "religious leaders" are? Jerry Falwell wannabees?

37 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:55:09pm

re: #15 Sharmuta

While I don't disagree with you two per se, I think it's important that rational Christians stand up to fundamentalist creationists. It's important to the faith, and it's important to science.

Yes, I suppose so.

But it takes some specialized knowledge to argue the point, so an ID hit squad can wander around defeating any average cleric who decides to put in a hand. It's giving the ID'rs almost too much credit, to argue with them. Do we want clergy confirming the sky is blue or the Earth orbits the sun? Yeah, I suppose, if it came to that the answer is yes, but ich.

38 celtic templar  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:55:22pm

re: #35 zombie

Damn them, Rove and Bush!

39 rightwinger3  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:56:43pm

re: #35 zombie

What's to argue about? Everyone knows that the Magic Bullet missed Kennedy's head, flew out into space and entered orbit, and six years later knocked the Apollo craft off course, where it failed to reach the moon, and eventually crashed to Earth on September 11, 2001, destroying Building 7 of the World Trade Center -- as planned.

That's just it zombie. It didn't miss. It went right through his head. The CIA guy that did it was also the same guy who set up the "flag on the moon" shot as well. The rest of your story jibes with mine.

40 Basho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:56:48pm

From the article, a quote by St. Augustine:

Usually even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens and the other elements of this world, about the motions of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.

Now it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics… If they find a Christian mistaken in a field in which they themselves know well and hear him maintain his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books and matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learned from experience in the light of reason?

41 Syrah  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:56:48pm

Ok.

Now that this has been settled, how do we explain Rod Blagojevich's hair?

The Turtles are mum on this subject.

42 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:57:58pm

It was the Seventh-day Adventist Church that really started the anti-evolution movement in America.

43 rightwinger3  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:58:23pm

re: #35 zombie

What's to argue about? Everyone knows that the Magic Bullet missed Kennedy's head, flew out into space and entered orbit, and six years later knocked the Apollo craft off course, where it failed to reach the moon, and eventually crashed to Earth on September 11, 2001, destroying Building 7 of the World Trade Center -- as planned.

and fire melts steel, right? Pfftt.

44 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:59:02pm

re: #36 jwb7605

Who gets to decide who the "religious leaders" are? Jerry Falwell wannabees?

I think the point is that it's the religious fundamentalists who are creating the conflict, so religious leaders are the best ones to counter them. This is not a scientific problem. It's a problem with fundamental religion.

And it's a HUGE problem in the Republican Party.

45 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:59:15pm

re: #41 Syrah

Ok.

Now that this has been settled, how do we explain Rod Blagojevich's hair?

The Turtles are mum on this subject.

I'll go with a Mean Girls reference:

"His hair's that big because he hears everybody's business." And got a piece of everyone's action.

46 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:59:23pm

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”
- Galileo Galilei

47 lawhawk  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:59:36pm

re: #31 zombie

And then throw in the religious component, and you've got yourself a very potent combination, which hasn't abated one iota in the decades since.

48 Haverwilde  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:59:43pm

re: #37 itellu3times

Yes, I suppose so.

But it takes some specialized knowledge to argue the point, so an ID hit squad can wander around defeating any average cleric who decides to put in a hand.

Actually I don't believe it does. I like the quote in the article:

We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator.


A good solid theological statement without need to know much science at all.

49 Basho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 5:59:43pm

re: #40 Basho

Augustine died in the year 430, by the way...

50 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:00:09pm

re: #37 itellu3times

It's giving the ID'rs almost too much credit, to argue with them.

You should read Ken Miller's Only A Theory. He argues their position for them, and in the process reveals how ridiculous ID really is.

51 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:00:10pm

re: #35 zombie

Brilliant!

52 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:00:28pm

Too funny:

GET OFF MY LAWN

Imagine pitching a movie like Gran Torino to one of Australia’s sheltered film-funding workshops: “It’s about an old guy who lives alone …”

“Why? Did his boyfriend leave him for another man after a disputed heroin deal?”

“No. His wife died. Anyway, he doesn’t like his neighbours …”

“Because they’re rich? Because they’re yuppies who work for banks?”

“No. Because they’re Asian. So one day this Asian kid tries to steal his …”

“His stash? His Aboriginal art collection? His Koran, autographed by David Hicks?”

“No. His car. Then the kid’s parents make him regain family honour by …”

“Killing the old guy! Yes! At last! Now we’re getting somewhere. Take that, property-owning, carbon-emitting white oppressor!”

“No. They make him work for the old guy, to redeem their shame.”

Read the whole thing.

53 Syrah  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:01:00pm

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

I'll go with a Mean Girls reference:

"His hair's that big because he hears everybody's business." And got a piece of everyone's action.

SO if we can wright a "How To" book on this subject, we will either get filthy rich, indicted, or both.

Hmmm . . .

54 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:01:22pm

Off topic, Matt Damon calls James Bond an Imperialist, mysogonist psychopath that goes around swilling martinis, bedding women & killing people. Damon sees Bond as "repulsive"
Hmmm, Matt Damon might be a little over analytical.

55 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:01:43pm

re: #42 Sharmuta

It was the Seventh-day Adventist Church that really started the anti-evolution movement in America.

And the Jehovah's Witnesses signed right on:

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

I always wanted to stick a Seventh Day Adventist and a Jehovah's Witness in a steel cage and see which one walked out...;~)

56 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:01:45pm

re: #46 Kenneth

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”
- Galileo Galilei

Galileo was much smarter than the creationists we are talking about. He also came from a Catholic tradition that does not put as much stock in biblical literalism.

57 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:01:56pm

I'm a monkey man.

Youtube Video
58 stretch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:03:30pm

I wonder how much credence would be given to ministers who happen to disagree with those who are Darwinists.

For those who belive in evolution and the bible, seem to have a little bit of trouble with the words of the Lord such as John 5:46-47:

46 For had you believed Moses, you would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words?

And Mark 10: 6-8

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and join to his wife;

So the Lord himself references the creation in Genesis, but is he to be believed?

59 HelloDare  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:03:42pm

re: #54 opnion

Off topic, Matt Damon calls James Bond an Imperialist, mysogonist psychopath that goes around swilling martinis, bedding women & killing people. Damon sees Bond as "repulsive"
Hmmm, Matt Damon might be a little over analytical.

I've always felt the same way about Bugs Bunny.

60 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:04:25pm

Wow, that was pretty quick.

61 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:04:58pm

re: #56 Dark_Falcon

Your are exactly right. Galileo was a scientist and a Christian and he saw no contradiction between his beliefs and his profession. By the way, one of his foavorite students eventally became Pope.

62 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:05:19pm

re: #58 stretch

Because Moses and Jesus both had an audience that would have comprehended science, right?

63 FrogMarch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:05:33pm

re: #54 opnion

Off topic, Matt Damon calls James Bond an Imperialist, mysogonist psychopath that goes around swilling martinis, bedding women & killing people. Damon sees Bond as "repulsive"
Hmmm, Matt Damon might be a little over analytical.

Isn't James Bond "the good guy" fighting crime with cool tools? Matt Damon is a man-pussy.

64 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:05:43pm

re: #59 HelloDare

I've always felt the same way about Bugs Bunny.

Bugs is a thug! No wait Fudd is the thug.

65 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:06:01pm

re: #58 stretch

I wonder how much credence would be given to ministers who happen to disagree with those who are Darwinists.

For those who belive in evolution and the bible, seem to have a little bit of trouble with the words of the Lord such as John 5:46-47:

46 For had you believed Moses, you would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words?

And Mark 10: 6-8

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and join to his wife;

So the Lord himself references the creation in Genesis, but is he to be believed?

Biblical literalism. The notion that every single word and phrase in the Bible is to be literally construed, unless explicitly designated in the text as a parable, and that every word and phrase is utterly, infallibly and eternally true.

66 HelloDare  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:06:32pm

re: #64 opnion

Bugs is a thug! No wait Fudd is the thug.

Bugs is a thug. Fudd is a thudd.

67 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:06:33pm

re: #53 Syrah

SO if we can wright a "How To" book on this subject, we will either get filthy rich, indicted, or both.

Hmmm . . .

No, no, no, no! You are a RACIST!

/Rev. Wright

68 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:06:55pm

re: #65 Salamantis

Biblical literalism. The notion that every single word and phrase in the Bible is to be literally construed, unless explicitly designated in the text as a parable, and that every word and phrase is utterly, infallibly and eternally true.

Not to mention, stretch is using translations that have been edited throughout the centuries.

69 Basho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:07:12pm
Augustine claims that we ought to be willing to change our minds about the interpretation of Genesis 1-3,
particularly as new information comes to light.

Consistent with the claim that Genesis 1-3 is difficult and obscure, Augustine repeatedly urges restraint, flexibility, openness to new interpretations, and openness to new knowledge that may provide insight into the text. He says that "in matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision ... we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in the search of truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it. That would be to battle not for the teaching of Holy Scripture but for our own, wishing its teaching to conform to ours, whereas we ought to wish ours to conform to that of Sacred Scripture"


[Link: www.asa3.org...]

This was all pointed out over 1500 years ago. Present-day Biblical literalists have no one but themselves to blame if they and their cult fall along with their undermined position.

70 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:07:20pm

re: #44 Charles

I think the point is that it's the religious fundamentalists who are creating the conflict, so religious leaders are the best ones to counter them. This is not a scientific problem. It's a problem with fundamental religion.

And it's a HUGE problem in the Republican Party.

I'm worried about the ever popular "I'm a more popular religious leader" debate, and whose church attracts the most participants once the reins are turned over (if that happens).
Not only that, but don't we have to include Islam given current politics?

I like the sentiment, but I'm pessimistic about the outcome.
I don't know if you read my posts about being sucked into the original "Intelligent Design" concept. This looks like a real opportunity for that, especially with "plausible deniability" (blatant lies, if you prefer) to be spread around.

I'd like to get Karradine's take on the matter.

71 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:07:22pm

re: #63 FrogMarch

Isn't James Bond "the good guy" fighting crime with cool tools? Matt Damon is a man-pussy.

James Bond is way cool. Matt Damon is a real goof.

72 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:07:41pm

re: #68 Sharmuta

Not to mention, stretch is using translations that have been edited throughout the centuries.

They just love their Saint James Bible...;~)

73 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:07:46pm

The gloaming of January 30, A.D. 2009, upon the San Gabriel Mountains of California, in the Pacific time zone.

These are young mountains, they have almost no foothills.

74 Haverwilde  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:08:07pm

re: #65 Salamantis

Biblical literalism. The notion that every single word and phrase in the Bible is to be literally construed, unless explicitly designated in the text as a parable, and that every word and phrase is utterly, infallibly and eternally true.

Yup, You must believe every word. Even those parts that contradict each other.

75 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:08:26pm

re: #66 HelloDare

Bugs is a thug. Fudd is a thudd.

Hold it , the thug is that Wylie Coyote!

76 FrogMarch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:08:52pm

re: #63 FrogMarch

Isn't James Bond "the good guy" fighting crime with cool tools? Matt Damon is a man-pussy.

(Although I do think the latest round of Bond movies suck)

77 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:09:30pm

re: #73 Ojoe

The gloaming of January 30, A.D. 2009, upon the San Gabriel Mountains of California, in the Pacific time zone.

These are young mountains, they have almost no foothills.

Is that support for young earth creationists?

////////

Great shot, thanks for sharing.

78 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:09:48pm

re: #64 opnion

Bugs is a thug! No wait Fudd is the thug.

But the Bird is the Word. Everybody knows that. Haven't you heard?

79 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:10:28pm

re: #76 FrogMarch

(Although I do think the latest round of Bond movies suck)


"Sean Connery is James Bond."

80 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:10:46pm

re: #69 Basho

They really don't like it when St Augustine is brought up.

81 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:10:53pm
82 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:11:09pm

re: #78 Salamantis

But the Bird is the Word. Everybody knows that. Haven't you heard?

Oh yeah.

83 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:11:39pm

re: #77 CynicalConservative

It will go dark soon, but later the sun will come "up".

(Scientific quotes)

84 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:11:51pm

Another creationist meltdown.

85 stretch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:11:57pm

re: #65 Salamantis

Biblical literalism. The notion that every single word and phrase in the Bible is to be literally construed, unless explicitly designated in the text as a parable, and that every word and phrase is utterly, infallibly and eternally true.

I like the 'Peter Principle' - that the words are best understood in their plainest meaning until otherwise established that the meaning is clearly allegorical.

86 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:12:04pm

re: #77 CynicalConservative

And, you are welcome.

87 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:12:08pm

re: #81 Quintus_Arius

Bye.

88 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:12:20pm

re: #54 opnion

Off topic, Matt Damon calls James Bond an Imperialist, mysogonist psychopath that goes around swilling martinis, bedding women & killing people. Damon sees Bond as "repulsive"
Hmmm, Matt Damon might be a little over analytical.

Since Matt Damon has seen fit to mimic the parody of Hollywood from Team America: World Police, we'll let Parker and Stone have the last word on this:

Youtube Video
89 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:12:39pm

re: #65 Salamantis

Biblical literalism. The notion that every single word and phrase in the Bible is to be literally construed, unless explicitly designated in the text as a parable, and that every word and phrase is utterly, infallibly and eternally true.

2 Chronicles 4:2:

He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

Pi is exactly 3!

90 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:12:49pm

"The scriptures haven't changed, we just understand them better."

— John XXIII, a saint by any measure.

91 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:14:05pm

re: #85 stretch

I like the 'Peter Principle' - that the words are best understood in their plainest meaning until otherwise established that the meaning is clearly allegorical.

Yeah...fundamentalists will ascribe Biblical meaning to their level of incompetence:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

92 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:14:22pm

Sean Hannity is interviewing Michael Steele.
If you can bear him...

93 stretch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:14:34pm

re: #68 Sharmuta

Not to mention, stretch is using translations that have been edited throughout the centuries.

The Darwinist ministers who claim faith in the bible will use some translation that they deem credible - can anyone believe a Darwinist?

94 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:15:14pm

re: #85 stretch

I like the 'Peter Principle' - that the words are best understood in their plainest meaning until otherwise established that the meaning is clearly allegorical.

That is what we are saying. The evidence points to humanity coming into being via a different route than the one depicted in Genesis. That has lead most of us to the conclusion that the creation story is allegorical.

95 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:15:53pm

re: #93 stretch

The Darwinist ministers who claim faith in the bible will use some translation that they deem credible - can anyone believe a Darwinist?

Can anyone believe you?

96 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:16:07pm

re: #93 stretch

The Darwinist ministers who claim faith in the bible will use some translation that they deem credible - can anyone believe a Darwinist?

The question is whether anyone can believe someone who willfully rejects and denies empirical evidence in favor of dogmatic faith. And the answer is no.

97 Syrah  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:16:09pm

re: #93 stretch

T can anyone believe a Darwinist?

I can. They don't demand a magic show.

98 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:16:27pm

re: #89 gmsc

Pi is a disgusting number, I think, but it is certainly not 3.

Bucky Fuller was led to the invention of the geodesic dome from the starting point that he hated the number Pi.

He started playing around with "the closest packing of spheres" to see for himself that nature did not really contain the number Pi.

This led him to some useful discoveries.

99 jaunte  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:16:35pm

The term "Darwinist" is only used by horsefeather merchants.

100 DeliLama  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:17:24pm

Charles Darwin was great because of his amazing discipline in observation. The Bible quoting creationist stepped aboard the HMS Beagle, overcame terrible seasickness and disease in his 5 year adventures in observation, and then slowly digested it all. The theory he advanced was a culmination of a lifetime of hard work. His best work, in my opinion, is the Voyage of the Beagle (and his huge pile of notes).

In my view, Darwin represents unbiased observation and careful analysis, a willingness to throw away ideology when it conflicts with enough observations. This approach to the world is sorely lacking today just as it was sorely lacking then and will probably always be sorely lacking.

101 stretch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:17:31pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

That is what we are saying. The evidence points to humanity coming into being via a different route than the one depicted in Genesis. That has lead most of us to the conclusion that the creation story is allegorical.

I understand that - though to me the 'evidence' points to special creation, not the chance appearing of all living things through entirely naturalistic processes.

102 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:17:37pm

re: #85 stretch

I like the 'Peter Principle' - that the words are best understood in their plainest meaning until otherwise established that the meaning is clearly allegorical.

Because there's nothing allegorical in plant life on earth before the creation of the sun.

103 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:18:16pm

re: #93 stretch

The Darwinist ministers who claim faith in the bible will use some translation that they deem credible - can anyone believe a Darwinist?

I can. I find Salmantis' explanations well researched and convincing and I have great faith in the words of Charles. A better question to you would be:

Why should anyone believe your words, as they are backed by so little evidence?

104 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:18:21pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

That is what we are saying. The evidence points to humanity coming into being via a different route than the one depicted in Genesis. That has lead most of us to the conclusion that the creation story is allegorical.

It is allegorical. Genisis is an attempt by desert nomads & sheep herders to try to explain the world. Faith should not rest on the Biblical account of Creation because it is not sustainable.

105 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:18:35pm

re: #7 CynicalConservative

I can guess at least two from recent threads.

And two is the number so far.

106 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:19:57pm

re: #93 stretch

The Darwinist ministers who claim faith in the bible will use some translation that they deem credible - can anyone believe a Darwinist?

I don't believe nor trust Darwinists, I know and understand scientists.

But then you don't have a clue about the difference I would gather.

107 stretch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:20:04pm

re: #96 Salamantis

The question is whether anyone can believe someone who willfully rejects and denies empirical evidence in favor of dogmatic faith. And the answer is no.

Back to empirical evidence - must I only accept the redefinition of the scientific method as preferred by the evolutionists?

108 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:20:08pm

re: #105 FurryOldGuyJeans

And two is the number so far.

Not the two I was alluding to, but one is pontificating on this thread in the usual fire and brimstone fashion.

109 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:21:01pm

re: #93 stretch

The Darwinist ministers who claim faith in the bible will use some translation that they deem credible - can anyone believe a Darwinist?

Who can believe anything you have to say after these comments last night?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

You said "consistent discovery", yet some have been found out of place. How many would have to be out of place to falsify?

As far as vastly different species possessing identical DNA: pick two humans. No wait, that doesn't work...

No genetic material for a living organsim? But of course, that would be the rock that decided to come alive. Cause and effect.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I made that comment to Salamantis, who had made the statement that falsification of evolution would partly be established by the consistent discovery of fossils "out of place". Does that mean that none have ever been found in the 'wrong' strata, or would just one 'out of place' be insufficient? The question was for him, I personally don't know of any.

You're a shameless liar.

110 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:21:18pm

re: #101 stretch

I understand that - though to me the 'evidence' points to special creation, not the chance appearing of all living things through entirely naturalistic processes.

And how do the transitions we see in the fossil record (such as the development of hooves or feathers) fit into a theory of special creation?

111 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:21:27pm

re: #101 stretch

I understand that - though to me the 'evidence' points to special creation, not the chance appearing of all living things through entirely naturalistic processes.

The empirical evidence points to common descent of all terrestrial species from a small set of ancient common ancestors that arose around 3 1/2 billion years ago, not to the separate and as is creation of millions upon millions of existent and extinct species in the span of six days a few thousand years ago.

And your use of scare quotes around the word evidence tells us much more about you than it does about the evidence.

112 The Shadow Do  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:21:29pm

re: #85 stretch

I like the 'Peter Principle' - that the words are best understood in their plainest meaning until otherwise established that the meaning is clearly allegorical.

Ah! Sort of the KISS principle - keep it simple, stupid?

Stretch, keepin' it simple, all day long. Simple Stretch. Now I see where you are comin' from...

The land of the simple minded.

113 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:21:32pm

re: #101 stretch

I understand that - though to me the 'evidence' points to special creation, not the chance appearing of all living things through entirely naturalistic processes.

What is this "evidence" of which you speak? Backup your assertions with data and facts.

114 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:22:04pm

re: #108 CynicalConservative

Not the two I was alluding to, but one is pontificating on this thread in the usual fire and brimstone fashion.

I don't follow the silent farters that only ding. The very vocal flatulent ones are those I pay attention to.

115 calcajun  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:22:24pm

This is all I'll say on the subject.

I'm a values and fiscal Conservative. I don't like big government 'cause in the wrong hands, it could be as bad as giving your teen-aged son your good Scotch and the keys to the gun safe. I am a Christian; Jesus was real-died cam back--the whole nine yards.

But, do I believe in evolution as expressed by Darwin and his successors? To an extent--yes. I don't know enough to say definitively yea or nay. I believe that God made the universe--it works too well to have simply happened. He just simply did not leave the assembly instructions laying around for us to read. But he made us curious bastards with the means to dig, scratch and sniff for the clues of how he did it. Hence, science explains religion (not faith).

Now, it's generally accepted that Moses wrote (via divine inspiration) the first five books of the Bible. So, the old sea-splitter wrote the creation story as told to him by the Great Engineer himself. But, why not tell us how he really did it? Because if Moses tried to explain amino acids, proteins, cellular mitosis and recombinant DNA to a late Bronze Age bunch of desert nomads, he'd been lynched. Don't snort; there were a couple of times during that long strange trip through the Sinai that they nearly dumped the guy down a well or two. It would have been like trying to explain the development of US fiscal policy to a toddler. Another way of looking the question of why God just didn't spill the beans back then it is from God's point of view; "Where's the fun in that?!"

Seriously, I do not believe in the supernatural--there are simply things that we cannot scientifically explain and there is little empirical evidence to explain certain phenomena. But, to claim that the Earth and humans have been knocking about this rock for only six millennia is daffy--and in a sense--un-Biblical. God is a god of order and reason. He won't break his own rules (except for said resurrection). So to say that he made this ball of mud six-thousand years ago, but decorated to make it look older makes no sense (and sort of makes the Big Guy into something of an antiques forger). More than that, it makes God into something arbitrary--like the Muslim version of God who loves his kids like an abusive parent does.

Proverbs says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. We are progressing technologically and scientifically faster than we ever have in human history. But, until we find a way to get off this rock and make an FTL ship with art deco fins any shiny consoles, we will continue to have this debate--which means we're gonna be talking about this for a century or two more.

Cripes, look at the time.
Cheers, y'all.

116 stretch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:23:10pm

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

I can. I find Salmantis' explanations well researched and convincing and I have great faith in the words of Charles. A better question to you would be:

Why should anyone believe your words, as they are backed by so little evidence?

Salmantis has based much of his evidence here on retroviral DNA - I asked him three times regarding phylogeny - do the comparisons of retroviral DNA always give the same or contradictory phylogeny? He didn't ever answer.

117 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:23:18pm

re: #114 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't follow the silent farters that only ding. The very vocal flatulent ones are those I pay attention to.

Agree wholeheartedly.

(other one I expected is winston06)

118 calcajun  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:23:50pm

re: #39 rightwinger3

That's just it zombie. It didn't miss. It went right through his head. The CIA guy that did it was also the same guy who set up the "flag on the moon" shot as well. The rest of your story jibes with mine.

"Back and to the left. Back and to the left." --Kevin Costner in JFK (rotten flick)

119 Basho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:23:53pm

re: #101 stretch

I understand that - though to me the 'evidence' points to special creation, not the chance appearing of all living things through entirely naturalistic processes.

Well, if one cannot understand empirical, wordly factual issues correctly, then their opinion on the spiritual is worthless...

120 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:24:12pm

re: #107 stretch

Back to empirical evidence - must I only accept the redefinition of the scientific method as preferred by the evolutionists?

Must you insist that there is a concerted effort to redefine something that hasn't substantially changed for quite some time.

Unless you mean the "science" promoted by the likes of those at the Discovery Institute; then by all means question their means, methods, and redefinitions.

121 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:24:12pm

re: #107 stretch

Back to empirical evidence - must I only accept the redefinition of the scientific method as preferred by the evolutionists?

The scientific method is explicit and proceeds according to the Verification Principle:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

122 DeliLama  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:24:21pm

Evolution is fact, supported by huge amounts of evidence. The methods by which evolution takes place have been misunderstood at times, but that doesn't nullify evolution itself.

For myself, I believe in science. It's a method for discovering the truth which has been fantastically successful. But science is a very sharp sword that cuts all fixed beliefs. It serves no one. Christians (perhaps correctly) see it as a partially-competing religion and they also correctly see evolutionary biology as a terrible acid which burns away many important foundations that have held up civilization. It's unfortunate, but it can't be helped or stopped.

Not everyone needs to be an evolutionary biologist. And not everyone can redesign their religion to accept the consequences of it. As I mentioned above, Charles Darwin himself was a Bible quoting creationist. If you can view yourself as just a side-effect, just a means for genetic material to propagate, then you can claim to be on the side of evolution. Life forms are merely unimportant short-lived tools, disposable containers for genetic material which is essentially immortal when you think about it.

I say let creationists live in their little world, but fight them vigorously in the public educational system when they attack science. Perhaps one day science will allow us to rise above our genes, to control them instead of having them control us.

123 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:24:35pm

re: #116 stretch

Salmantis has based much of his evidence here on retroviral DNA - I asked him three times regarding phylogeny - do the comparisons of retroviral DNA always give the same or contradictory phylogeny? He didn't ever answer.

He did answer, you just didn't like the answer.

124 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:24:55pm

OT: Sean Hannity is using another LGF story without credit.

125 stretch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:25:10pm

re: #102 Sharmuta

Because there's nothing allegorical in plant life on earth before the creation of the sun.

right - some Darwinist ministers like to claim that the 'days of creation' represented eons of time, but having plant life appear before the sun poses a bit of a difficulty for them.

126 hazzyday  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:25:15pm

re: #116 stretch

Salmantis has based much of his evidence here on retroviral DNA - I asked him three times regarding phylogeny - do the comparisons of retroviral DNA always give the same or contradictory phylogeny? He didn't ever answer.

You might have left the thread but he did answer you.

127 calcajun  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:25:16pm

re: #115 calcajun

Sorry--did not mean to drone on.

128 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:25:25pm

re: #124 Charles

Which one?

129 BignJames  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:25:50pm

re: #93 stretch

The Darwinist ministers who claim faith in the bible will use some translation that they deem credible - can anyone believe a Darwinist?

So, which "translation" do you prefer?

130 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:26:03pm

re: #125 stretch

Uh- not a problem for "darwinists" it's a problem for literalists.

131 calcajun  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:26:11pm

re: #124 Charles

OT: Sean Hannity is using another LGF story without credit.

Sue the bastard! He's got money.

132 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:26:19pm

re: #109 Sharmuta

You're a shameless liar.

When saving souls there is not shame and no lies.

At least that is what some believe. I would trust a taqqiya spouting Muslim more than a science spouting Creationist. At least the Muslim knows they are told to lie.

133 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:26:21pm

The Samantha Power story.

Hannity and Fox News blatantly steal from blogs, and never give credit.

134 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:26:28pm

re: #124 Charles

OT: Sean Hannity is using another LGF story without credit.

Sanitized as it was Hannitized.

135 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:26:36pm

re: #98 Ojoe

Pi is a disgusting number, I think, but it is certainly not 3.

Of course not. If it were, all of our o's would be hexagonal!

136 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:26:47pm
Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.
Do not trust those who insist otherwise.


That's all well and good, but where does that leave the Turtle Stack?
I sensing some discrimination again.....
//

137 eon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:26:53pm

re: #54 opnion

Off topic, Matt Damon calls James Bond an Imperialist, mysogonist psychopath that goes around swilling martinis, bedding women & killing people. Damon sees Bond as "repulsive"
Hmmm, Matt Damon might be a little over analytical.

Good evening, Lizards.

Actually, Damon's synopsis of 007 is remarkably close to Ian Fleming's own conception of the character. Forget the movie versions, for the most part- in the novels, notably Casino Royale and From Russia With Love, Bond is portrayed as a cold-blooded killer who will get the job done no matter what the cost. In the former book, his last line, reporting the demise of the treacherous Vesper Lynd, is "The b***h is dead." Period.

My opinion of 007 is best summed up by the review of Timothy Dalton's initial outing in the role' in The Living Daylights, from The James Bond Encyclopedia (revised edition);

There are times when Bond can and should be a bastard. When the chips are down, the fate of the world is at stake, and there's killing to be done, he should be doing it. Roger Moore saved the world every three years with wit and charm. Dalton has brought back the danger in 007. You're never quite sure what he's going to do next, and that makes him fascinating to watch.

The new 007 (can't think of his name just now-brain f**t) seems to be following in Dalton's footsteps in taking Bond back to his literary roots. To which I can only say, about d**ned time.

As for Damon, in the Jason Bourne films he plays a programmed assassin who's gone haywire. Disregarding the morality of creating a Manchurian Candidate in the first place, somebody who's made a lot of money playing a "lion tamer" who has, for whatever reason, started taking out people on his own side should be careful who he chucks verbal brickbats at.

cheers

eon

138 calcajun  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:27:01pm

re: #129 BignJames

So, which "translation" do you prefer?

I like the Reader's Digest condensed one. It's easier to read on the toilet. ;)

139 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:27:18pm

re: #116 stretch

Salmantis has based much of his evidence here on retroviral DNA - I asked him three times regarding phylogeny - do the comparisons of retroviral DNA always give the same or contradictory phylogeny? He didn't ever answer.

You got answered more than once. You just don't think he answered because it wasn't anything you wanted to hear.

140 Syrah  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:27:38pm

re: #124 Charles

OT: Sean Hannity is using another LGF story without credit.

Hi Sean.

Wave back us.

Say thank you to Charles.

Its OK. You can do it.

141 mean Gene  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:28:10pm

Thanks for including the Stinky quote:
Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.
Do not trust those who insist otherwise.

It is often needed on these threads.
Maybe not this time.

142 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:28:16pm

re: #116 stretch

Salmantis has based much of his evidence here on retroviral DNA - I asked him three times regarding phylogeny - do the comparisons of retroviral DNA always give the same or contradictory phylogeny? He didn't ever answer.

Oh yes I did - repeatedly. There is no scientific disagreement; gorillas evolutionarily diverged before chimpanzees did, and this progression is empiricaly demonstrable via artifactual retroviral DNA sequences. And when you asked the question, you referred to chimpanzees AND apes, as if they were two different things; D'OH!

143 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:28:31pm

re: #124 Charles

OT: Sean Hannity is using another LGF story without credit.

I'd be glad about that.
I remember your comment in a previous thread about being associated with certain other people as being a "conservative".
Think about it ... the deal sucks, but maybe it's a good thing.

144 avanti  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:28:37pm

re: #133 Charles

The Samantha Power story.

Hannity and Fox News blatantly steal from blogs, and never give credit.

Lazy journalism, scan the net, steal a idea, run with it.

145 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:28:44pm

re: #124 Charles

OT: Sean Hannity is using another LGF story without credit.


Which one?

146 TaeJohnDo  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:29:07pm

re: #31 zombie

Or, to phrase it 1858-style:

I, sir, refuse to recognize that I am a monkey."

But you are a Lizard!

147 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:29:56pm

re: #124 Charles

OT: Sean Hannity is using another LGF story without credit.

Shocka!

/

148 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:29:57pm

re: #125 stretch

right - some Darwinist ministers like to claim that the 'days of creation' represented eons of time, but having plant life appear before the sun poses a bit of a difficulty for them.

Not if you're not a Genesis literalist.

149 hazzyday  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:30:03pm

re: #137 eon

The new Bond movies seem more feminized to me. He needs to fool around more. He held onto the girl too long in the previous one.

150 BignJames  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:30:13pm

re: #138 calcajun

I like the Reader's Digest condensed one. It's easier to read on the toilet. ;)


I'm gonna read the Hebrew.....as soon as I learn to read Hebrew.

151 Basho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:30:29pm

re: #142 Salamantis

And when you asked the question, you referred to chimpanzees AND apes, as if they were two different things; D'OH!

lol
Well, if he is that confused on the natural, then that surely makes him an expert on the supernatural.

152 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:31:11pm

re: #98 Ojoe

Pi is a disgusting number, I think, but it is certainly not 3.

I'd hate to introduce you to e or i, if that is your attitude about pi. ;)

153 calcajun  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:31:12pm

re: #150 BignJames

But that one stops before the Christmas story and all that other four horsemen stuff.

154 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:31:26pm

re: #73 Ojoe

The gloaming of January 30, A.D. 2009, upon the San Gabriel Mountains of California, in the Pacific time zone.

These are young mountains, they have almost no foothills.

What? You concede that mountains grow and evolve over time?!?!?!?

It was in fact this detail -- seeing the geography of South American mountains -- that convinced Darwin of Cuvier's theory of a very old Earth, which was the linchpin and final required peice in his theory of evolution.

So, your comment was definitely ON-topic after all!

155 stretch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:31:40pm

re: #109 Sharmuta

You're a shameless liar.

re: #109 Sharmuta

You're a shameless liar.

again - the response was to a statement that fossils would have to "be found consistently out of place" - I recall hearing and reading that some fossils have been found out of place (by upthrusts, inversions, erosion and reburial, etc..), but as I wrote, I personally do not know of any. If there was a lie there somewhere, I don't see it.

156 stretch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:32:19pm

re: #129 BignJames

So, which "translation" do you prefer?

I prefer NKJ and ASV

157 BignJames  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:32:30pm

re: #153 calcajun

But that one stops before the Christmas story and all that other four horsemen stuff.

So, I gotta learn Latin, too?

158 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:32:40pm

re: #136 JCM

That's all well and good, but where does that leave the Turtle Stack?
I sensing some discrimination again.....
//

It's a sign from the Turtles!
I popped the cap on My Kona Brewery Pipeline Porter and Written on the inside the cap I find"

HONU
Turtle

It a sign I tell you! A sign!

159 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:32:43pm

re: #156 stretch

I prefer NKJ and ASV

ASV?

160 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:32:43pm

re: #152 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'd hate to introduce you to e or i, if that is your attitude about pi. ;)

e(-t/rc) is my personal favorite.

161 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:33:20pm

re: #155 stretch

Pathetic.

162 BignJames  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:33:21pm

re: #156 stretch

I prefer NKJ and ASV


Good enough for Jesus...good enough for you?

164 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:33:34pm

re: #155 stretch

again - the response was to a statement that fossils would have to "be found consistently out of place" - I recall hearing and reading that some fossils have been found out of place (by upthrusts, inversions, erosion and reburial, etc..), but as I wrote, I personally do not know of any. If there was a lie there somewhere, I don't see it.

Not hard to understand, considering you are too cognitively blind to acknowledge facts, logic and evidence when they are placed before you.

165 calcajun  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:33:52pm

re: #155 stretch

again - the response was to a statement that fossils would have to "be found consistently out of place" - I recall hearing and reading that some fossils have been found out of place (by upthrusts, inversions, erosion and reburial, etc..), but as I wrote, I personally do not know of any. If there was a lie there somewhere, I don't see it.

I find fossils whenever i go to the desert here in SoCal. There's some hills out in Anza Borrego on top of which are fossilized marine life/crustaceans. Ain't that hard to do the math.

166 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:34:01pm

re: #137 eon

Eon, you just gave a very sophisticated analysis of the James Bond persona.
Matt Damon has probably never read Ian Fleming and would not have a clue about what you just said. Bravo!

167 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:34:16pm

re: #164 Salamantis

He's incapable of using google to discover these fossils he supposedly heard about.

168 calcajun  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:34:24pm

re: #157 BignJames

So, I gotta learn Latin, too?

Strike a happy medium; ancient Greek will do you fine.

169 stretch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:34:37pm

re: #142 Salamantis

Oh yes I did - repeatedly. There is no scientific disagreement; gorillas evolutionarily diverged before chimpanzees did, and this progression is empiricaly demonstrable via artifactual retroviral DNA sequences. And when you asked the question, you referred to chimpanzees AND apes, as if they were two different things; D'OH!

THe artifactual DNA gives different phylogeny based on the comparison. There is disagreement on the descent, and the phylogeny is inconsistent.

170 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:34:41pm

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

ASV?

American Standard Version?

171 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:34:49pm

re: #101 stretch

I understand that - though to me the 'evidence' points to special creation, not the chance appearing of all living things through entirely naturalistic processes.

Evidence of miracles, eh? That must some kind of amazing evidence you got there.

Interesting how every scientist for the last 100 years has looked at the exact same evidence and came to the exact opposite conclusion as you.

172 stretch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:35:16pm

got to go - dinner and a movie. have fun

173 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:35:26pm

re: #163 Charles

If you want to understand '"stretch's" purpose at LGF...

Isn't his purpose to continually bug the shit of everyone?

174 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:36:08pm

re: #172 stretch

got to go - dinner and a movie. have fun

Remember to eat the dinner and watch the movie.

But you can't do either since they are products of evil science.

175 CynicalConservative  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:36:19pm

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

ASV?

Asinine Stretching Veracity?

176 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:37:07pm

re: #167 Sharmuta

He's incapable of using google to discover these fossils he supposedly heard about.

I am capable, I just refuse to Google for other reasons. ;)

But yahoo! and other search engines work for me.

177 jaunte  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:37:11pm

re: #172 stretch

Go see "The Big Kahuna."
[Link: www.imdb.com...]

178 DeliLama  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:37:25pm

Everyone worries about this species or that species when they're all short-lived side effects of genetic material. Humans fear that they're just glorified monkeys when it's actually worse than that.

179 calcajun  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:37:31pm

re: #173 FurryOldGuyJeans

Isn't his purpose to continually bug the shit of everyone?

Now now. You've come here for an argument. -John Cleese.

180 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:37:37pm

OT - I took some middle schoolers to the local Naval hospital to meet with Marines, Sailors and Soldiers in long term recovery. I have done this twice before but got some feedback from some of the senior NCOs that I thought I would share.

The patients respond really well to having teenagers visit. More so than any other kinds of public visitors that come by.

The reason is that these are generally young men in their early 20s. They are really only a little older than the kids visiting. This lets them "let down their hair" and have fun and joke around with the kids. Plus they, being older and obviously more "worldly" these troops are able to feel like they can give these kids good advice and insights on a broad range of topics.

In other words - they don't only feel appreciated - they feel useful. When you are laid up in a hospital waiting for your fourth surgery in a sequence of seven, you spend a lot of time doing nothing that makes you feel important.

So the NCOs felt the need to let people know that. They still are very happy to have anyone come by and wish these kids well, but if you are over 40 years old then these kids are going to say "yes sir, yes ma'am" and let you do most of the talking. Again - they are happy that you do that. But if you bring a few teen agers and some pizza - big win.

For the troops. And for the teenagers.

Get the word out.

BBL

181 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:37:38pm

re: #163 Charles

If you want to understand '"stretch's" purpose at LGF...

I've always had the feeling that "in the beginning", they understood God and were clueless about technology.
Now, we understand technology and are clueless about God.

Peter principle in action?

182 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:38:21pm

re: #171 zombie

Evidence of miracles, eh? That must some kind of amazing evidence you got there.

Interesting how every scientist for the last 100 years has looked at the exact same evidence and came to the exact opposite conclusion as you.

He is such much more intelligent than all those evil G-d Deniers.

/s

183 eon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:38:54pm

re: #166 opnion

Eon, you just gave a very sophisticated analysis of the James Bond persona.
Matt Damon has probably never read Ian Fleming and would not have a clue about what you just said. Bravo!

Thank you. I've read the books since I was a kid. And frankly, I think that Donald Hamilton's Matt Helm would be someone 007 wouldn't want to be up against.

/And I'm not talking about the version played by Dean Martin, either.

cheers

eon

184 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:39:16pm

re: #169 stretch

THe artifactual DNA gives different phylogeny based on the comparison. There is disagreement on the descent, and the phylogeny is inconsistent.

You are wrong. Provide a link to support your case, if you can (and no a Disco Institute, Institute For Creation Research, or Answers In Genesis link won't do).

The fact is that we share more DNA generally, and more artifactual retroviral DNA sequences specifically, with chimpanzees than we do with gorillas (and more with gorillas than we do with orangutans) - which shows that orangutans evolutionarily diverged first, then gorillas, than chimpanzees. Chimpanzees vs. bonobos is a close call, but it seems that those two might have diverged after their common ancestor diverged from our own ancestors.

185 calcajun  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:39:20pm

re: #178 DeliLama

Everyone worries about this species or that species when they're all short-lived side effects of genetic material. Humans fear that they're just glorified monkeys when it's actually worse than that.

With the way our species has been carrying on for the past two centuries, I'd think there's some monkeys which might take exception to your remark. the worst they fling at each other is their own feces while we fling nukes.

186 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:39:37pm

Big religion is ripping me off and stealing my godlessness!
/

187 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:39:39pm

re: #124 Charles

OT: Sean Hannity is using another LGF story without credit.

He seems to specialize in that. He used zombietime stories without credit twice, which led to my great shock when, the third time, he actually credited me!

Then he followed that up with another uncredited story.

Sigh.

Honestly, I don't think he does it on purpose, he's just clueless about the internet, and his assistants trawl the neo-con blogs looking for stories and don't seem to notice or care where they originated.

188 Basho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:39:48pm

re: #172 stretch

got to go - dinner and a movie. have fun

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

189 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:40:13pm
190 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:40:25pm

re: #187 zombie

He seems to specialize in that. He used zombietime stories without credit twice, which led to my great shock when, the third time, he actually credited me!

Then he followed that up with another uncredited story.

Sigh.

Honestly, I don't think he does it on purpose, he's just clueless about the internet, and his assistants trawl the neo-con blogs looking for stories and don't seem to notice or care where they originated.

I think you just nailed it.

191 mean Gene  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:40:50pm

So, Super Bowl Sunday at the White House.
Is this the 0ne's 2nd or 3rd or more drinking parties since he got in office?

192 DeliLama  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:41:47pm

re: #185 calcajun

With the way our species has been carrying on for the past two centuries, I'd think there's some monkeys which might take exception to your remark. the worst they fling at each other is their own feces while we fling nukes.

Nonsense! Our species has demonstrated the most remarkable behavior these last two centuries compared to our own distant past and compared to the animals.

When will people get over this whole "noble savage syndrome"?

193 Crux Australis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:41:53pm

re: #156 stretch

I prefer NKJ and ASV

I prefer the original Greek myself. Makes much more sense than the English.

I have taught myself enough New Testament Greek to get by. Not that I don't trust the modern translators myself.

194 HelloDare  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:42:15pm

re: #172 stretch

got to go - dinner and a movie. have fun

But you've already seen EXPELLED seventeen times.

195 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:42:21pm

re: #133 Charles

The Samantha Power story.

Hannity and Fox News blatantly steal from blogs, and never give credit.

Not true!

They give credit about 10% - 15% of the time.

The rest, they just rip off.

Personally, I take a kind of perverse satisfaction being a secret media-manipulator behind the scenes. Shrug, go with the flow. Better to make a difference and remain unknown, than to be famous but ineffectual.

196 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:43:43pm

re: #194 HelloDare

But you've already seen EXPELLED seventeen times.

Besides, movies are a by-product of quite a lot of science. And that is a no-no for a true believer.

197 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:43:45pm
198 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:43:45pm

re: #191 mean Gene

So, Super Bowl Sunday at the White House.
Is this the 0ne's 2nd or 3rd or more drinking parties since he got in office?

Have you noticed that Obama runs to a camera everyday? I could be wrong , but I do not remember another President doing that.
He does not want questions, he just wants to pontificate & get an ego stroke.

199 Syrah  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:43:52pm

re: #195 zombie

Not true!

They give credit about 10% - 15% of the time.

The rest, they just rip off.

Personally, I take a kind of perverse satisfaction being a secret media-manipulator behind the scenes. Shrug, go with the flow. Better to make a difference and remain unknown, than to be famous but ineffectual.

I would still like to see you and Charles get more credit for what you do.

200 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:44:12pm

re: #163 Charles

If you want to understand '"stretch's" purpose at LGF...

Hebrews 11:1-3 (Darby Translation)
1Now faith is [the] substantiating of things hoped for, [the] conviction of things not seen.
2 For in [the power of] this the elders have obtained testimony.
3 By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by [the] word of God, so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.

Does not exactly lend itself to "rational" explanation, other than a spiritual rationality.

201 mean Gene  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:44:20pm

re: #193 Crux Australis

I prefer the original Greek myself. Makes much more sense than the English.

I have taught myself enough New Testament Greek to get by. Not that I don't trust the modern translators myself.

You can see them all here, singly or in bunches:
[Link: www.biblegateway.com...]
3 different Greek translations plus 1 Hebrew along with loads of English, Arabic, Spanish, French, etc.

202 hazzyday  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:44:45pm

re: #195 zombie

Blogs should probably have a "Please attribute this blog if you use any part of it in alternative media" or some such note. Then a followup letter to the network management to please respect the content origin of the story in the interest of fair news.

203 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:44:52pm

re: #195 zombie

Personally, I take a kind of perverse satisfaction being a secret media-manipulator behind the scenes. Shrug, go with the flow. Better to make a difference and remain unknown, than to be famous but ineffectual.

Comparing yourself to Kos, maybe? Spot on, if you were. ;)

204 mean Gene  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:45:47pm

re: #202 hazzyday

Blogs should probably have a "Please attribute this blog if you use any part of it in alternative media" or some such note. Then a followup letter to the network management to please respect the content origin of the story in the interest of fair news.

Isn't it sad that they even have to ask?

205 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:45:54pm

re: #185 calcajun

With the way our species has been carrying on for the past two centuries, I'd think there's some monkeys which might take exception to your remark. the worst they fling at each other is their own feces while we fling nukes.

Who is flinging nukes?

206 calcajun  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:46:20pm

re: #192 DeliLama

Nonsense! Our species has demonstrated the most remarkable behavior these last two centuries compared to our own distant past and compared to the animals.

When will people get over this whole "noble savage syndrome"?

I subscribe to Hobbes' view of man. Strip off this thin veneer of civilization and we're back to the feudal system--or worse. The only thing which keeps us in check is fear of the state in some circles and fear of God in others.

Oh well. Time to go drink dinner.

207 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:46:20pm

I myelf am famous but ineffectual...jus sayin...

208 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:46:29pm
209 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:46:43pm

re: #202 hazzyday

Blogs should probably have a "Please attribute this blog if you use any part of it in alternative media" or some such note. Then a followup letter to the network management to please respect the content origin of the story in the interest of fair news.

News organizations get bent out of shape if you use anything they do without attribution, and in most cases lots of monetary compensation. What makes the blogs so different that people can freely steal and act like it is their own hard-worked product.

210 HelloDare  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:46:43pm

re: #163 Charles

If you want to understand '"stretch's" purpose at LGF...

Stretching the truth since Mar 13, 2008, 7:18 pm.

211 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:46:50pm

re: #197 taxfreekiller

Charles,
Zombie,

the credit will be , 100 years from now Americans will still be free,

Nice!

212 hazzyday  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:47:34pm

re: #204 mean Gene

I think the IDF should move to a media central location and force all news about it to originate from there and attribute to there or not be allowed.

I'm also waiting for them to sue the UN for war crimes.

213 calcajun  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:48:01pm

re: #205 opnion

Who is flinging nukes?

Sorry, the hyperbole carried me away. We threaten to fling nukes. We fling artillery shells filled with DuPont's finest .

Gotta go.

214 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:48:03pm
215 brookly red  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:48:54pm

re: #133 Charles

The Samantha Power story.

Hannity and Fox News blatantly steal from blogs, and never give credit.

I could never understand how that is... a work released in print is copyrighted, are there no such laws for "new media"?

216 hazzyday  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:49:02pm

re: #209 FurryOldGuyJeans

News organizations get bent out of shape if you use anything they do without attribution, and in most cases lots of monetary compensation. What makes the blogs so different that people can freely steal and act like it is their own hard-worked product.

Yes that is the AP process I think isn't it? I never heard how their lawsuit against the guy using one of their pictures turned out. Will have to check that loose end.

217 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:49:52pm

re: #203 FurryOldGuyJeans

Comparing yourself to Kos, maybe? Spot on, if you were. ;)

Well, no; I'm about 5% as impactful as Charles, and (sadly) also less impactful than Kos.

Kos may be wrong on 99% of all political issues, and (at least until three months ago) have a miserable track record for backing candidates, and an awful, snarky personality -- but he does have influence on which stories are covered and which are buried.

Frustrating, but unfortunately true.

218 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:50:29pm
219 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:50:32pm

I'll keep my eye on LGF, but I need to work of something right now.

220 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:51:05pm

re: #217 zombie

Well, no; I'm about 5% as impactful as Charles, and (sadly) also less impactful than Kos.

Kos may be wrong on 99% of all political issues, and (at least until three months ago) have a miserable track record for backing candidates, and an awful, snarky personality -- but he does have influence on which stories are covered and which are buried.

Frustrating, but unfortunately true.

What do you think the situation would be if Charles (or you) were as well funded as Kos?

221 eon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:51:19pm

re: #189 taxfreekiller

tfk too, also, was watching Mr. Vanity,

thinking when he had the Press Sec. of Obama on....

Obama is a manipulator, an attorney and a politician.

He has to know this guy is a klutz, is bad for the "O" image,
so the question comes,,, why? is he allowing it to go on.

Just could be like this, Obama wanted to name one of his "black" radical buds, but at the first jump, he just was not brave enough and his other advisor's said not to do that...

then the scheming Ainsley , Chicago way resume came in as a value

Obama put this guy up there to make white men look bad, make whitey look like ,,, well a klutz, not able to talk well,,,,,
Obama will leave this poor guy twirling in the wind for some weeks, then
he will with out it being known get this poor boob white guy to say he has health problems and quit, then , Obama can put in his radical commie black guy bub.....

like that

I think it's simpler than that. I think The One is just as fundamentally clueless as his idol, Rabbit Bait. My guess is that when his minions get caught with their pants down, either due to some shenanigans in their background, some shenanigans in the White House, or just sheer thundering incompetence, we're going to get used to seeing The One with a "deer-caught-in-the-headlights" look, just like Jimmy used to get.

And like Jimmy, he will then throw the reason for his discomfiture off the bus. And under the wheels.

Should be entertaining to watch- sort of like an Edward D. Wood, Jr. movie.

Or a slow-motion train wreck.

/In what the Chinese proverb calls "interesting times", you have to take your amusements as you can find them.

cheers

eon

222 FrogMarch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:51:33pm

re: #191 mean Gene

So, Super Bowl Sunday at the White House.
Is this the 0ne's 2nd or 3rd or more drinking parties since he got in office?

The Messiah is rooting for the Steelers. Obama says they are "Close to his heart". eeeee gads - libs have to smother everything they touch with touchy feely ickyness.

223 mean Gene  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:51:42pm

re: #215 brookly red

I could never understand how that is... a work released in print is copyrighted, are there no such laws for "new media"?

A long time ago (1918 or so) the Supreme Court took a case from AP challenging any other news collector from an exclusive right to news.
It was ruled as general information and AP won.
That made AP's recent attempt at requiring copyright payments to use even a link to one of their web pages all the more laughable.

224 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:51:45pm
225 sngnsgt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:52:32pm

re: #35 zombie

LOL! That one's a keeper.

226 brookly red  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:53:14pm

re: #223 mean Gene

thank you.

227 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:53:16pm

It would be really swell if a group of prominent scientists would issue a reciprocal statement acknowledging that the two rival worldviews:

• Evolution occurred in a "theistic universe"

and

• Evolution occurred in an "atheistic universe"



...are both fully compatible with a scientific understanding of the universe.

Because, in fact, there's no empirical test that could confirm which of these two universes we're living in -- so the choice an individual makes ultimately depends on an Occam's Razor judgment call: does it seem more probable that there IS an intelligence behind the universe, or that there ISN'T? And two equally rational and scientific-minded people may come to opposite conclusions. (I used to be firmly convinced that Occam's Razor favored the "atheistic universe" choice, but nowadays I'm less certain of that, and I often lean more towards some form of Deism, or sometimes a naturalistic pantheism -- that the physical Universe is in some sense the gigantic brain of a self-aware, intelligent consciousness called God, and our lives are a dream that God is having.)

228 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:54:07pm

re: #224 taxfreekiller

Cost of a U.S. Senate seat in Texas,, $25 million min..

Either have it yourself, rare.
Or have folks give it too you and be beholden.

229 Neo Con since 9-11  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:54:21pm

re: #124 Charles

OT: Sean Hannity is using another LGF story without credit.

Charles, may I suggest a way to stop Hannity from stealing your stories would be to record his show and the next time he does steal you post his entire show on YouTube? I suspect he'll get the message uncredited reporting is theft pretty damn quick.

230 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:54:53pm
231 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:55:04pm

re: #217 zombie

If picking wrong candidates is impact, then more power to him. ;)

232 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:56:43pm

re: #220 jwb7605

What do you think the situation would be if Charles (or you) were as well funded as Kos?

And had as compliant lap-dog media outlets as Kos has.

233 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:57:48pm

re: #229 Neo Con since 9-11

Charles, may I suggest a way to stop Hannity from stealing your stories would be to record his show and the next time he does steal you post his entire show on YouTube? I suspect he'll get the message uncredited reporting is theft pretty damn quick.

I actually heard about LGF due to Hannity attributing the Exposing of the Rathergate memo hoax to LGF.

234 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:57:49pm

re: #220 jwb7605

What do you think the situation would be if Charles (or you) were as well funded as Kos?

Not much different, frankly. And here's why:

Both LGF and zombietime are one-person operations. (I'm stepping out of line even including myself in the same category as LGF, since it gets 10x the number of visitors as me and posts wayyyyyy more topics, but you get the idea.) My "bottleneck," and I suspect Charles' as well, is not a lack of money but a lack of time. And you can't get more time than exists -- there's only 24 hours a day. So, really, extra money wouldn't help me much. And I suspect wouldn't help Charles much, since he does his own coding and decision already anyway.

The "DailyKos" blog, by contrst, is a vast group effort, with dozens of moderators and coders and hundreds of contributors and thousands of "diarists," etc. Markos Moulitsas is merely the public face and the founder of a gigantic organization.

235 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:58:26pm

re: #222 FrogMarch

The Messiah is rooting for the Steelers. Obama says they are "Close to his heart". eeeee gads - libs have to smother everything they touch with touchy feely ickyness.

which proves right there he is no football fan...how the fuck can a fan from Chicago have the Steelers close in their heart?...wtf?...asshole lookin to be one of the boyz...fraudski bigtime

236 DocDale  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 6:58:48pm

re: #28 celtic templar

This is accepted in Catholicism today (I posted this last night, but I feel the need to faithfully defend my religion):

[Link: www.catholic.com...]

I wish Bobby Jindal would pay more attention to his own Church on this point. His flirting with the IDers really is evidence of a weak grasp on Catholic doctrine.

237 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:00:09pm

re: #234 zombie

And with money comes the possibility of staff, so don't sell yourself short since you are a lone voice. Sometimes that is what is needed for hope that change will happen.

238 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:00:12pm

He was important to Obama early on, so I guess we could say Reverend Wright wrote The Origin of Fleeces.

239 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:01:13pm

re: #236 DocDale

I wish Bobby Jindal would pay more attention to his own Church on this point. His flirting with the IDers really is evidence of a weak grasp on Catholic doctrine.

Any Catholic politician that supports abortion has a mighty weak on reality.

240 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:01:32pm

re: #234 zombie

Good points all.
I like your stuff without a large staff available.
I suspect I would like it less if you had a staff of people "helping".

That said, you're still underpaid.

241 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:01:33pm

What does Farrakhan have to say about evolution? Wright?

242 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:02:26pm
243 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:02:31pm

re: #235 albusteve

which proves right there he is no football fan...how the fuck can a fan from Chicago have the Steelers close in their heart?...wtf?...asshole lookin to be one of the boyz...fraudski bigtime

Because the sad truth is after BHO made the disparaging remarks about clinging Pennsylvanians, Steeler ownership endorsed him & helped him rehabilitate his image.
Cardinals! Go Big Red.

244 zombie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:03:46pm

re: #240 jwb7605


That said, you're still underpaid.

"Underpaid" suggests a level of payment to begin with. Let me edit that for you:

Underpaid.

245 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:04:23pm

re: #244 zombie

"Underpaid" suggests a level of payment to begin with. Let me edit that for you:

Underpaid.

my bad. ;-)

246 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:05:10pm

re: #243 opnion

Because the sad truth is after BHO made the disparaging remarks about clinging Pennsylvanians, Steeler ownership endorsed him & helped him rehabilitate his image.
Cardinals! Go Big Red.


the Rooney family is an institution...I am not pleased to hear this and you ruined my buzz....but I got it back with Go Big Red!....heh

247 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:05:25pm

re: #236 DocDale

Speaking of Bobby Jindal

In recent announcements, Gov. Bobby Jindal noted that student achievement requires a "zero tolerance for disruptions in the classroom" and that student discipline directly impacts both student achievement and teacher recruitment and retention. Recent Lousiana Federation of Teacher surveys confirm the conclusion that student discipline is a contributing factor to teacher turnover.

But that is not the only reason teachers leave our profession. Low salaries, substandard working and learning conditions, impossible expectations and the lack of community and parental support also contribute to the frightening exodus.

We believe that resolving all these issues requires a different approach to public education than we have taken in the past. Delegates to the Federation's 2008 LFT Convention called for a bolder, broader vision for the education of all of Louisiana's children, including:

The awareness at every level of decision-making that standardized tests alone will not guarantee that children will have the knowledge and skills required to participate in our constantly changing world. Critical-thinking skills, emotional and intellectual adaptability and an appreciation and understanding of the arts, as well as science, are essential characteristics of an educated citizenry.

Louisiana has it's work cut out for it.

248 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:07:06pm

re: #246 albusteve

the Rooney family is an institution...I am not pleased to hear this and you ruined my buzz....but I got it back with Go Big Red!....heh


Sorry, but I read it in the Chicago Tribune today. I always respected the Rooney family, but I don't like this.

249 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:07:49pm

re: #246 albusteve

the Rooney family is an institution...I am not pleased to hear this and you ruined my buzz....but I got it back with Go Big Red!....heh

Rush revived his "environmentalist wacko pick" today, and got so twisted up with pretzel logic I ended up favoring the Cardinals.

That's a heart pick, but it sure isn't a head pick.
I'd like to see Kurt Warner make the hall of fame, and I think that's his only shot.

250 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:08:08pm

re: #236 DocDale

I wish Bobby Jindal would pay more attention to his own Church on this point. His flirting with the IDers really is evidence of a weak grasp on Catholic doctrine.

Actually, it may just be his way of getting the support of the Biblical literalists in his state, many of whom are not friends of Catholicism. Though that also would say something bad about him: that he is not willing to do the right thing if it loses him votes.

251 mean Gene  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:08:09pm

re: #241 godfrey

What does Farrakhan have to say about evolution? Wright?

Not a word that I can find.

252 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:08:35pm

re: #248 opnion

Sorry, but I read it in the Chicago Tribune today. I always respected the Rooney family, but I don't like this.

all's well...we will survive

253 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:08:36pm
I wish Bobby Jindal would pay more attention to his own Church on this point. His flirting with the IDers really is evidence of a weak grasp on Catholic doctrine.

I wonder if Jindal really believes in ID (he seems to be a smart man) or if he believes he must pander to his base. I think he is smart enough to know that ID will not sell on a national political stage.

254 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:09:32pm

re: #31 zombie

Or, to phrase it 1858-style:

I, sir, refuse to recognize that I am a monkey."

[Link: www.collegian.psu.edu...]

Study links human, monkey DNA

By Amy Flashenberg
Collegian Staff Writer
The findings of a recent study may facilitate future research on genetic diseases, while saving the lives of monkeys.

Members of Penn State faculty collaborated with researchers nationwide to analyze and develop the genome sequence -- a map of DNA structure that identifies functions of certain genes -- of the rhesus macaque monkey, said Webb Miller, researcher and professor of biology and computer science and engineering at Penn State.

...

255 Haverwilde  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:10:16pm

re: #236 DocDale

I wish Bobby Jindal would pay more attention to his own Church on this point. His flirting with the IDers really is evidence of a weak grasp on Catholic doctrine.

I think it is worse than that. I suspect that he is just prostituting himself to the extreme religious right in order to get the money to try for the presidency. Unfortunately it is the 'kiss of death.' He may energize part of the GOP base, but turn off another huge part.

256 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:11:13pm

re: #247 Sharmuta

A bigger problem in Louisiana than Jindal's sop to Protestant fundamentalists is its Department of Education, which is about as inept and flailing an organization as I've ever seen. You could spend years in that building just trying to change a lightbulb.

257 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:11:34pm

re: #255 Haverwilde
GMTA

258 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:11:47pm

re: #249 jwb7605

Rush revived his "environmentalist wacko pick" today, and got so twisted up with pretzel logic I ended up favoring the Cardinals.

That's a heart pick, but it sure isn't a head pick.
I'd like to see Kurt Warner make the hall of fame, and I think that's his only shot.


The Cardinals started in Chicago as a weak sister to the Bears.
They were so cash poor thet the University of Chicago Maroons donated their practce jersys for the Cards to use as game jersys.
They had been washed so much that they became cardinal red, ergo Chicago Cardinals.

259 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:12:09pm

re: #249 jwb7605

Rush revived his "environmentalist wacko pick" today, and got so twisted up with pretzel logic I ended up favoring the Cardinals.

That's a heart pick, but it sure isn't a head pick.
I'd like to see Kurt Warner make the hall of fame, and I think that's his only shot.

not true...dont listen to the hype...the Cards have an excellent chance of stealing this one....I love pro ball and want it to happen badly...the Steelers are vulnerable and the lowly Cowboys with all their playmakers proved it...if the Cards play solid, MISTAKE free ball, look for an upset...they are more than capable...two words...Fitz Gerald...

260 eon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:12:50pm

re: #256 godfrey

A bigger problem in Louisiana than Jindal's sop to Protestant fundamentalists is its Department of Education, which is about as inept and flailing an organization as I've ever seen. You could spend years in that building just trying to change a lightbulb.

Did they get a brain transplant from Ohio's state DOE?

/You pretty much just described what we Buckeyes have to cope with in that department.

cheers

eon

261 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:12:51pm

re: #256 godfrey

A bigger problem in Louisiana than Jindal's sop to Protestant fundamentalists is its Department of Education, which is about as inept and flailing an organization as I've ever seen.


Is that pre Jindal? Is he reforming it or trying to?

262 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:14:07pm

re: #253 Jim in Virginia

I wonder if Jindal really believes in ID (he seems to be a smart man) or if he believes he must pander to his base. I think he is smart enough to know that ID will not sell on a national political stage.


precisely...he must believe his own tripe but does he know he's cutting his throat nationally?.... the GOP does not need Jindal....he's history (I hope)...

263 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:14:27pm

re: #259 albusteve

not true...dont listen to the hype...the Cards have an excellent chance of stealing this one....I love pro ball and want it to happen badly...the Steelers are vulnerable and the lowly Cowboys with all their playmakers proved it...if the Cards play solid, MISTAKE free ball, look for an upset...they are more than capable...two words...Fitz Gerald...

I'm rooting for the Cardinals, but I fully expect the Steelers to win.

My advice, if you're betting, is to set aside as much money as you can afford to lose, and bet it on the Cardinals.

If they lose, you only lost money you can afford to lose. If you win, the Cardinals are so underfavored that the payoff is sure to be a pretty penny.

264 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:14:54pm

re: #257 Jim in Virginia

GMTA

He should run for the middle. That always works. Right, President McCain?

265 Crux Australis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:15:13pm

Does holding a view that states there is an old universe and an old earth disqualify you from being a biblical literalist?

266 Haverwilde  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:15:14pm

re: #257 Jim in Virginia

GMTA

Yes, there are a lot of great minds on LGF.... or are all in the same gutter?.... nah.

267 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:15:31pm

re: #259 albusteve

not true...dont listen to the hype...the Cards have an excellent chance of stealing this one....I love pro ball and want it to happen badly...the Steelers are vulnerable and the lowly Cowboys with all their playmakers proved it...if the Cards play solid, MISTAKE free ball, look for an upset...they are more than capable...two words...Fitz Gerald...

Damn, are you right about Larry Fitzgerald. He will be the best athlete on the field. A little irony he played for Pitt.

268 Taqyia2Me  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:15:56pm

I wish I coulda updinged twice for that Lao Stinky guy Charles spoke of...

269 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:16:16pm

re: #258 opnion

The Cardinals started in Chicago as a weak sister to the Bears.
They were so cash poor thet the University of Chicago Maroons donated their practce jersys for the Cards to use as game jersys.
They had been washed so much that they became cardinal red, ergo Chicago Cardinals.

Wotta Maroon!
/Bugs Bunny
Were the UC Maroons primitive forebears of the Texas Aggies?

270 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:16:41pm

re: #255 Haverwilde

Prot fundies in Louisiana don't have big money. Swaggart's place for instance is a shambles. I think it was either payback or a sop. He's also an educated fella who likes the idea of "teaching a debate" in the safe, fuzzy abstract. I think his support was dumb, and I'd like to slap him upside the head. But there you are.

271 Haverwilde  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:16:50pm

Well, whoever the Won is for, I am against!

272 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:16:54pm

re: #247 Sharmuta

Speaking of Bobby Jindal

Louisiana has it's work cut out for it.

My wife tells me the teachers (in the school district here) are upset that beginning next year, they will no longer get Veteran's day off. The school district is shortening up the school year by a couple of days.

I asked "How many teachers are veterans?"
answer: "Not many".
I said "I'm a veteran".
she said "I know".
I said "How many times have I had Veteran's day off"
she said "never".
I said "It's hard to work up a lot of sympathy over that issue".

If that makes it into the local papers, the public will be less than sympathetic. Teachers are underpaid, the district has too much staff, too few teachers, and there is little the teachers can do about discipline in some schools.
From my perspective, school administrators are not unlike state politicians.

273 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:18:13pm

re: #264 OldLineTexan

He should run for the middle. That always works. Right, President McCain?


Like the O said when he signed his first bill: "I'm a lefty , get used to it."

274 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:18:30pm

re: #263 gmsc

I'm rooting for the Cardinals, but I fully expect the Steelers to win.

My advice, if you're betting, is to set aside as much money as you can afford to lose, and bet it on the Cardinals.

If they lose, you only lost money you can afford to lose. If you win, the Cardinals are so underfavored that the payoff is sure to be a pretty penny.

I've said that since Killian trashed the Cards last week...let me say this...with the NFL your expectations are worthless...sorry bro...if the Steelers win you can brag how you just knew the outcome...but what if they dont?....then you're a fool....

275 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:18:37pm

re: #122 DeliLama

actually, "Evolution is fact" is a misstatement.

At best over reaching, at worst the same type of rhetoric that you posted against.

Alternate true statements would include:
...supported by many facts
...seems to fit many facts
...best theory to explain many facts

276 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:18:44pm

re: #269 OldLineTexan

Wotta Maroon!
/Bugs Bunny
Were the UC Maroons primitive forebears of the Texas Aggies?

Maybe. They actually had the first Heisman Trophy winner, Berwanger.
Seriously, the University of Chicago used to play big time football.

277 HypnoToad  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:18:56pm

One of the main things driving the evolution deniers and YECs, is fear. In the last century nearly all branches of science has become far too complex to be easily understood by the average person. Instead of learning about the vast and ancient cosmos we inhabit, it is easier to deny it, shrink it, and simplify it until you are comfortable in your ignorance.

I do public astronomy events, and I do sometimes see that fear in peoples eyes when I'm describing the vast scale and deep timespan of the universe. Probably none of us is really comfortable with being but a faint, brief flicker of existence as the juggernaut of reality proceeds into the future, but some are truly terrorized by that thought, while others wonder or stand in awe. Evolutionary biology is merely the easiest branch of science to deny, but others are or will be questioned as well. (YEC vs astronomy for ex.)

I am secure and content to contemplate the vastness of the night sky through my telescope, while one of my old neighbors desperately clung to the belief that the stars were candles in the windows of heaven and refused to ever look at them through it.

278 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:19:23pm

re: #258 opnion

The Cardinals started in Chicago as a weak sister to the Bears.
They were so cash poor thet the University of Chicago Maroons donated their practce jersys for the Cards to use as game jersys.
They had been washed so much that they became cardinal red, ergo Chicago Cardinals.

Today's important fact!
I "followed" them from about 1975, when they were still in St. Louis.
I'll file that away for sucker bets.

279 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:19:25pm

re: #273 Jim in Virginia

Like the O said when he signed his first bill: "I'm a lefty , get used to it."

Ya gotta admit, it was a good line.

280 Basho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:20:16pm

re: #275 slokat

actually, "Evolution is fact" is a misstatement.

At best over reaching, at worst the same type of rhetoric that you posted against.

Alternate true statements would include:
...supported by many facts
...seems to fit many facts
...best theory to explain many facts

No... evolution is an empirical observation. The theory of evolution is a collection of ideas to explain how it works.

281 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:20:32pm

re: #276 opnion

Maybe. They actually had the first Heisman Trophy winner, Berwanger.
Seriously, the University of Chicago used to play big time football.

I do not doubt it. It was just some Aggie-bashing for Jim and me to enjoy.

282 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:20:37pm

re: #270 godfrey godfrey, are you in Lousiana? Whereabouts?

283 Haverwilde  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:20:43pm

re: #270 godfrey

Prot fundies in Louisiana don't have big money. Swaggart's place for instance is a shambles. I think it was either payback or a sop. He's also an educated fella who likes the idea of "teaching a debate" in the safe, fuzzy abstract. I think his support was dumb, and I'd like to slap him upside the head. But there you are.

I will cite the reaction to Palin for my thought process. (Don't take me wrong--I am an Alaskan who supported her.)
But she got a lot of attention/money/support because of her very conservative views and apparent religious right orientation.

284 eon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:20:50pm

re: #265 Crux Australis

Does holding a view that states there is an old universe and an old earth disqualify you from being a biblical literalist?

Yes, IMHO. The two sets of data are incompatible (judging the age of the Earth by fossil evidence and Carbon-14 dating vs. counting the number of generations between Adam and Abraham- for which, BTW, the OT gives three different figures in three different places).

I tend to believe the Carbon-14 data over that derived from inexact and possibly wholly spurious "genealogy".

cheers

eon

285 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:20:56pm

re: #276 opnion

Maybe. They actually had the first Heisman Trophy winner, Berwanger.
Seriously, the University of Chicago used to play big time football.

my dad used to talk about their powerhouse teams...way back in the day before my time

286 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:21:21pm

re: #274 albusteve

I've said that since Killian trashed the Cards last week...let me say this...with the NFL your expectations are worthless...sorry bro...if the Steelers win you can brag how you just knew the outcome...but what if they dont?....then you're a fool....

Actually, I could care less about sports, so bragging about anything after the fact doesn't concern me.

Is there a possibility for money to be made here? Yes, if done smartly.

If the Steelers win, then their name goes on the trophy, and I have to go back to work the next day. If the Cardinals win, then their name goes on the trophy, and I have to go back to work the next day.

BFD.

287 saberry0530  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:21:28pm

OT Daschle has tax issues.

Betcha Wesley Snipes is wishing he could become a cabinet level Secretary now.

288 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:22:07pm

re: #279 OldLineTexan

Ya gotta admit, it was a good line.


Yeh, but I get a tingle in my leg every time I think about that remark. And not in a good way.

289 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:22:53pm

re: #278 jwb7605

Today's important fact!
I "followed" them from about 1975, when they were still in St. Louis.
I'll file that away for sucker bets.

Hart and Grey and Dierdorf and ol Conrad Dobler...they were good back then

290 Haverwilde  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:23:06pm

re: #275 slokat

actually, "Evolution is fact" is a misstatement.

At best over reaching, at worst the same type of rhetoric that you posted against.

Alternate true statements would include:
...supported by many facts
...seems to fit many facts
...best theory to explain many facts

You forgot one minor point: It is demonstrated in laboratories regularly.

291 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:23:19pm

re: #278 jwb7605

Today's important fact!
I "followed" them from about 1975, when they were still in St. Louis.
I'll file that away for sucker bets.

I say, Cards in an upset. They have a lot of talent, a hot quarterback, a great wide reciever & a tough defense.

292 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:23:31pm

re: #288 Jim in Virginia

Yeh, but I get a tingle in my leg every time I think about that remark. And not in a good way.

See your doctor if symptoms persist for more than four years.

293 Kenneth  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:23:34pm

re: #268 Taqyia2Me

just don't get on Stinky's bad side.

294 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:24:06pm

re: #275 slokat

actually, "Evolution is fact" is a misstatement.

At best over reaching, at worst the same type of rhetoric that you posted against.

Alternate true statements would include:
...supported by many facts
...seems to fit many facts
...best theory to explain many facts

Evolution is change in terrestrial species over time. THAT this has happened is incontrovertible, as attested to by the fossil record; HOW it happens is the province of evolutionary theory, and the central evolutionary theory tenets of random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection are supported by vast masses of empirical evidfence, and contradicted by not a single shred.

295 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:24:10pm

re: #281 OldLineTexan

I do not doubt it. It was just some Aggie-bashing for Jim and me to enjoy.


Missed that the first time by. Are you saying Aggies evolved?
Into what?

296 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:24:32pm

re: #291 opnion

I say, Cards in an upset. They have a lot of talent, a hot quarterback, a great wide reciever & a tough defense.

I'm with you, opnion...and I am looking forward to a GREAT game!

297 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:24:49pm

re: #261 Jim in Virginia

It's been a while since I've looked. The Dept of Ed of course is set up in the state Constitution, broadly, and while it's possible to change that, it's time-consuming and contentious. Twice a year I think the DOE and the Regents (higher ed), have a joint meeting. The contrast between the two is rather large, but they have been working pretty well together for at least ten years, which is enough time to start getting results. There's a new accountability system down there which is suprisingly good -- it was cleverly engineered. But all the policy in the world won't do much good if the teachers in the classrooms are lousy and the system moves too slowly to get rid of them. That's why I think it's a big problem: inertia in that DOE is massive, and from what I could see, they also all hate each other, back-bite, condescend, and so on. Total snake pit.

298 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:24:54pm

re: #295 Jim in Virginia

Missed that the first time by. Are you saying Aggies evolved?
Into what?

From Maroons.

Makes sense to me.

299 Throbert McGee  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:24:55pm

re: #85 stretch

I like the 'Peter Principle' - that the words are best understood in their plainest meaning until otherwise established that the meaning is clearly allegorical.

Oh, yeah, I remember my born-again Christian friends in high school giving me a Josh McDowell book in which ol' Josh applied this to the Bible. The six-day creation, and the entire globe being flooded up past the peaks of the highest mountains, as per Genesis, was to be taken at literal face value. But when Revelation said that "the moon will turn to blood" -- that was "obviously a metaphor," declared Josh. (Of course, my immediate response was that the literal transformation of the rocky Moon into a spherical blob of glistening red vampire juice 3500 kilometers wide ought to be cinchy for a God who'd made the entire Universe in six days -- so why was the language of Revelation "obviously metaphoric"?)

300 eon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:25:04pm

re: #277 HypnoToad

One of the main things driving the evolution deniers and YECs, is fear. In the last century nearly all branches of science has become far too complex to be easily understood by the average person. Instead of learning about the vast and ancient cosmos we inhabit, it is easier to deny it, shrink it, and simplify it until you are comfortable in your ignorance.

I do public astronomy events, and I do sometimes see that fear in peoples eyes when I'm describing the vast scale and deep timespan of the universe. Probably none of us is really comfortable with being but a faint, brief flicker of existence as the juggernaut of reality proceeds into the future, but some are truly terrorized by that thought, while others wonder or stand in awe. Evolutionary biology is merely the easiest branch of science to deny, but others are or will be questioned as well. (YEC vs astronomy for ex.)

I am secure and content to contemplate the vastness of the night sky through my telescope, while one of my old neighbors desperately clung to the belief that the stars were candles in the windows of heaven and refused to ever look at them through it.

I've also spent many happy hours watching the stars through optics. Although as an OT( Original Trekkie) I'd rather be watching them on the main viewer of a starship's bridge.

cheers

eon

301 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:25:33pm

re: #286 gmsc

Actually, I could care less about sports, so bragging about anything after the fact doesn't concern me.

Is there a possibility for money to be made here? Yes, if done smartly.

If the Steelers win, then their name goes on the trophy, and I have to go back to work the next day. If the Cardinals win, then their name goes on the trophy, and I have to go back to work the next day.

BFD.

there is never anything smart betting on pro football, especially the Super Bowl...altho I have many's the time...if you make a little bit of money you are doing pretty good imo

302 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:25:35pm

re: #285 albusteve

my dad used to talk about their powerhouse teams...way back in the day before my time

Yeah, it was way back. The University of Chicago was actually the Monsters of the Midway, not the Bears. The Midway is on the campus.

303 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:26:05pm

re: #241 godfrey

What does Farrakhan have to say about evolution? Wright?

I suppose Farrakhan would likely not venture an opinion without consulting the Great Wheel in the Sky. As for Wright, I have no idea.

304 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:26:15pm

re: #296 Wishing

I'm with you, opnion...and I am looking forward to a GREAT game!

I want revenge.
For the Seahawks / Steelers Superbowl!

We was robbed and I want the Steelers to suffer humiliation!

305 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:26:39pm

Pittsburgh vs. Arizona has the potential to be as lopsided as the Bournemouth Gynecologists vs. Watford Long John Silver Impersonators semi final.

306 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:26:42pm

re: #298 OldLineTexan

From Maroons.

Makes sense to me.

Sneaky, snarky, heh! upding.

307 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:26:52pm

re: #302 opnion

Yeah, it was way back. The University of Chicago was actually the Monsters of the Midway, not the Bears. The Midway is on the campus.

exactly true...sharp!

308 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:27:06pm

re: #296 Wishing

I'm with you, opnion...and I am looking forward to a GREAT game!

This should be a really well played game, two good teams.

309 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:27:08pm

Nana, you're a peach.

310 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:27:34pm

re: #43 rightwinger3

and fire melts steel, right? Pfftt.

?

311 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:27:57pm

re: #307 albusteve

exactly true...sharp!

I have my moments.

312 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:28:32pm

re: #311 opnion

BTW....what time is game time?

313 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:28:40pm

re: #310 Unakite

?

Never in history!
/

314 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:28:47pm

re: #277 HypnoToad

I wrote a poem about this feeling of trepidation in the face of a vast and perduring cosmos:

Insignificant Crown

For fourteen billion years this universe has been.
So tells the tale of the red shift of microwaves:
That Big Bang echo which permeates its every space.
More than four billion years ago our own planet formed.
A billion years later life first appeared upon it.
Mutation and selection, competition and cooperation
All fused to evolve this teeming cauldron of life
Comprised by, among other things, us.

The typical adult human brain
Measures close to ninety cubic inches
And weighs around three pounds.
Within it are contained tens of billions of neurons
Connected by many billions of dendritic limbs
By means of which they talk to one another.
Their branches, anchored in sturdy axon trunks
Each twig into a thousand synaptic buds
Which radiate out to touch the buds of other cells.

This mass of tightly convoluted flesh
Remains the single most intricate thing
Yet discovered in our universe;
It contains such complexity that it breaches recursive limits
Achieving both perception and self-reference.
Conscious awareness of both self and surroundings emerges
And these impressions are symbolized
And abstracted into linguistic concepts.
Thusly is mind born:
That dynamic becoming
Which is at once both within and peering into its world.
This tiny labyrinthine weave within the great vast universe
Possesses the capacity to apprehend and name
Not only its encompassing whole
But also itself.
It is truly a crown of cosmic creation
Blessing the brow upon which it rests
By means of its gifts of inner vision and cognition.

And yet, there are six billion humans living today.
Individual exceptionalism
Is drowned in a deluge of profusion.
We all huddle together
On the skin of our common home:
Just one of several planets
Circling one of many billions of stars
Tucked away inside the crook
Of one elbow of the Milky Way -
Itself one of many galaxies
Which form one of several superspirals
Contained within the immense wheel and span
Of a massive material reality
Which circumscribes such vast distances that light itself
Which travels a fifth of a million miles in a second
Would take billions of years to traverse it.

This ancient colossus cares not that we exist.
It cares not that eons ago
It birthed the conditions for our creation.
We mean nothing at all to this grand
Yet insensate insentience surrounding us
Nor does it harbor value or affection for anything else.
Although we evolved here, and thus do belong
We are nevertheless merely unnoticed motes of becoming being
Crowded masses of miniscule matter-clothed souls
Filmed across the surface of a still-cooling stone
Spun into a forgotten corner of this gigantic sphere.
And our glittering proud crown
Blanches and pales to nattering insignificance
By comparison with the greater oblivious order of things.

315 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:28:56pm

re: #152 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't like irrational numbers.

316 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:29:08pm

re: #282 Jim in Virginia

I was. Now up nawth. I used to golf in January and drink Abita. Now I've got fire and whiskey. Not bad, the nawth.

317 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:29:52pm

re: #315 Ojoe

I don't like irrational numbers.

Me neither. I cling to the imaginary ones.

318 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:30:18pm

A Texas greeting for GWB...

Liveleak Video
319 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:31:40pm

re: #317 jwb7605

Me neither. I cling to the imaginary ones.

i hear you on that.

320 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:31:41pm

re: #317 jwb7605

Pi never stops. It's a nightmare.

321 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:32:02pm

re: #312 Wishing

BTW....what time is game time?

5:30 pm CST, but the hype is all day. It gets so over analysed.
Tee it up & kick it off & pass the Buffalo wings & how about a beer?

322 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:32:13pm

re: #308 opnion

This should be a really well played game, two good teams.

the Cards are the underdogs...everybody dismissed them all along...they are very talented and I dont think they fear the Steelers at all...the have a HoF QB who is totally unflappable...they can do it...I would take the points straight up anyday for all you got...maybe a squeeker tho...the Cards are very explosive while the Steelers sort of pld along hoping the D keeps it together....heh...look for an upset

323 HypnoToad  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:32:34pm
I've also spent
many happy hours watching the stars through optics. Although as an OT(
Original Trekkie) I'd rather be watching them on the main viewer of a
starship's bridge.

cheers

eon


I'm an OTer as well, although I rather see myself standing before the panoramic window on the death star watching the battle...

324 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:32:37pm

re: #320 Ojoe

Pi never stops. It's a nightmare.

This thread is deriving into puns.

325 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:32:51pm

re: #318 JCM

A Texas greeting for GWB...


Man, that just brings tears to my eyes. I am so glad he is home in Texas, where he is loved and appreciated.

326 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:32:55pm

Galaxies are like Chinese cities. You know they're out there, and they're really big, but they're sorta remote and full of speech you can't understand, so it's easier just to smile and wave for the time being.

327 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:33:37pm

re: #322 albusteve

the Cards are the underdogs...everybody dismissed them all along...they are very talented and I dont think they fear the Steelers at all...the have a HoF QB who is totally unflappable...they can do it...I would take the points straight up anyday for all you got...maybe a squeeker tho...the Cards are very explosive while the Steelers sort of pld along hoping the D keeps it together....heh...look for an upset

I am with you.

328 Taqyia2Me  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:33:51pm

re: #318 JCM

Thank God for Texas, and W.

329 BignJames  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:34:13pm

re: #289 albusteve

Hart and Grey and Dierdorf and ol Conrad Dobler...they were good back then

Larry Wilson

330 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:34:33pm

re: #321 opnion

5:30 pm CST, but the hype is all day. It gets so over analysed.
Tee it up & kick it off & pass the Buffalo wings & how about a beer?

Agree, the pre-game stuff is all about the new suits they got for the show. LOL (the talking heads I mean)

331 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:34:43pm

re: #316 godfrey
I was born in Shreveport, lived there and NO as a kid. No desire to move back- it's a fascinating place but best observed at a distance.

332 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:34:46pm

The Steeler D will be fired up.

333 opnion  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:35:13pm

Good night all. Charles, thanks for hosting & you Lizards are fun!

334 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:35:17pm

re: #322 albusteve

the Cards are the underdogs...everybody dismissed them all along...they are very talented and I dont think they fear the Steelers at all...the have a HoF QB who is totally unflappable...they can do it...I would take the points straight up anyday for all you got...maybe a squeeker tho...the Cards are very explosive while the Steelers sort of pld along hoping the D keeps it together....heh...look for an upset

I predict with a good deal of certainty that either the Steelers will blow the Cards out, or the Cards will blow the Steelers out, or it will be a real squeaker.

And the Broncos won't even field a team.

335 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:35:30pm

G'nite, opnion.

336 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:35:47pm

re: #322 albusteve

the Cards are the underdogs...everybody dismissed them all along...they are very talented and I dont think they fear the Steelers at all...the have a HoF QB who is totally unflappable...they can do it...I would take the points straight up anyday for all you got...maybe a squeeker tho...the Cards are very explosive while the Steelers sort of pld along hoping the D keeps it together....heh...look for an upset

I would love to see the Card pull out a win. Their performance in the playoffs has been superb, and I prefer it when the NFC wins (Bears Fan).

337 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:35:49pm

re: #325 Wishing

Man, that just brings tears to my eyes. I am so glad he is home in Texas, where he is loved and appreciated.

there are oodles of Texans that can't stand the guy or his dad and they don't all reside in Austin....I know this for a fact

338 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:35:53pm

re: #85 stretch

I like the 'Peter Principle' - that the words are best understood in their plainest meaning until otherwise established that the meaning is clearly allegorical.

Occam's razor. The Peter Principle is ...well,.. nevermind.

339 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:35:54pm

re: #328 Taqyia2Me

Thank God for Texas, and W.


A thousand updings.

340 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:36:00pm

re: #320 Ojoe

Pi never stops. It's a nightmare.

Everlasting pi is delicious.

341 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:36:00pm

re: #334 jwb7605

I predict with a good deal of certainty that either the Steelers will blow the Cards out, or the Cards will blow the Steelers out, or it will be a real squeaker.

And the Broncos won't even field a team.

Is this a McCainism?

342 eon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:36:04pm

re: #323 HypnoToad

I'm an OTer as well, although I rather see myself standing before the panoramic window on the death star watching the battle...

If I'm on the bridge of an Excelsior/Ingram, and I see a Death Star coming, my order is going to be

Helm, get us the hell out of here, now!

There's no percentage in fighting above your weight class, IMHO.

cheers

eon

343 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:36:14pm

re: #280 Basho

I find nothing to disagree with in your reply, thank you for making the point in a different way.

I am always amazed to see the misuse of language/concepts/terms from those that are trying to tell others that they don't understand.

344 Haverwilde  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:36:16pm

Well the creationists have fled, so, I guess, I am off to bed.
Night All.

345 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:36:18pm

Good Night All.

346 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:36:57pm

re: #341 Wishing

Is this a McCainism?

Nah. I heard that from football analysts. Real high priced ones.

347 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:37:11pm

re: #334 jwb7605

I predict with a good deal of certainty that either the Steelers will blow the Cards out, or the Cards will blow the Steelers out, or it will be a real squeaker.

And the Broncos won't even field a team.


Someday, the Redskins will win and piss off the politically correct.

348 Basho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:37:16pm

re: #343 slokat

=)

349 jwb7605  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:38:05pm

re: #347 Jim in Virginia

Someday, the Redskins will win and piss off the politically correct.

LOL!
Good night, all!

350 Jim in Virginia  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:38:14pm

re: #340 OldLineTexan

Everlasting pi is delicious.


Pi R Square.
No, son, Pi are not square. Pi are round. Cornbread are square.

351 eon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:38:54pm

re: #345 Ojoe

Good Night All.

And the same from me.

Sleep well, Lizards. Continue to outevolve the competition.

cheers

eon

352 Racer X  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:39:19pm

Basil with a Guiness chaser.

Is that wrong?

Cuz it sure tastes good.

353 Basho  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:39:41pm

All this math talk is making me feel like a loser for not going to graduate school...

354 SteveC  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:39:49pm

re: #342 eon

If I'm on the bridge of an Excelsior/Ingram, and I see a Death Star coming, my order is going to be

Helm, get us the hell out of here, now!

There's no percentage in fighting above your weight class, IMHO.

cheers

eon

As Will Smith said in Independence Day: "Let's go, Jimmy, we ain't got nothing for them!"

355 Truck Monkey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:39:51pm

re: #347 Jim in Virginia

Someday, the Redskins will win AGAIN and piss off the politically correct.

fify

356 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:39:57pm

re: #331 Jim in Virginia

I really liked the time I spent there and got to know some first-rate people, both the high-ups and the down-lows. Been all over that state, from Shreveport to Vidalia, Bogalusa to Lake Charles, and everything in between, even to places as small as Church Point (Evangeline) and Cocodrie. As usual, my regret was not doing enough fishing -- and I never got to hunt up around Clinton. Still, it was great, and New Orleans remains one of my favorite American cities. Despite it all.

357 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:40:11pm

re: #290 Haverwilde

You forgot one minor point: It is demonstrated in laboratories regularly.

Alluded to it, didn't forget it & not a minor point, but it is still in the category of supporting a theory by facts...

358 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:40:28pm

OT, but did we already discuss Steele being appointed GOP head?

359 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:40:37pm

re: #352 Racer X

Basil with a Guiness chaser.

Is that wrong?

Cuz it sure tastes good.

Ohhhhhhhh!
That can't be wrong.....

360 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:41:58pm

Pi. It's popular because it's cute. "Pi." It should be in the zoo next to the pandas.

361 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:42:02pm

Michael Steele, new GOP head

362 DocDale  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:42:25pm

From what I've been told, Godfrey is right. The education system in Louisiana is really busted.

I've often wavered on the origins of Jindal's support of ID: is it cynical opportunism designed to pick up the Protestant vote? Or the fact that he's a Catholic convert from a very different tradition and doesn't understand bits of his own religion?

His anti-abortion stance is properly consistent with Catholicism, but many conservative Catholics oppose the death penalty for the same reason as they oppose abortion: it's part of what they see as the modern 'culture of death'. What's Louisiana like on the capital punishment front? Politics is full of compromises, I know, but many powerful and respected Catholics around the world have held (or hold) high office without downing their principles.

He's outstandingly bright -- I know people at Oxford who taught him -- but as we all know cleverness doesn't necessarily protect people from doing or believing very stupid things.

363 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:42:35pm

re: #329 BignJames

Larry Wilson

man I'd forgotten about him....super player and a great man...nice snag!

364 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:42:46pm

re: #358 Wishing

OT, but did we already discuss Steele being appointed GOP head?

re: #361 Wishing

Covered...

365 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:43:45pm

DocDale!

366 albusteve  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:44:17pm

re: #334 jwb7605

I predict with a good deal of certainty that either the Steelers will blow the Cards out, or the Cards will blow the Steelers out, or it will be a real squeaker.

And the Broncos won't even field a team.

I like a flexible attitude....

367 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:44:33pm

re: #364 Noam Sayin'

re: #361 Wishing

Covered...

Thanks Noam, and shame on me for not reading back.

368 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:45:53pm

re: #98 Ojoe

Pi is a disgusting number, I think, but it is certainly not 3.

Bucky Fuller was led to the invention of the geodesic dome from the starting point that he hated the number Pi.

He started playing around with "the closest packing of spheres" to see for himself that nature did not really contain the number Pi.

This led him to some useful discoveries.

Pi is a mathematical concept that was defined to help man understand nature. The concept of great circles help people navigate around the earth, but nature does not really contain great circles.

369 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:47:07pm

re: #368 Unakite

Pi is a mathematical concept that was defined to help man understand nature. The concept of great circles help people navigate around the earth, but nature does not really contain great circles.

Summer spring winter fall summer spring winter fall....sure seems like a big circle.

370 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:48:06pm

Moon....sun...earth...all LOOK like big circles.

371 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:48:09pm

re: #362 DocDale

Cap punishment never came up, really. I can't remember a single news story or case. My guess is that it has broad support, but circumstances of particular cases could sway things.

372 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:48:32pm

What happened to Rabbit Bait's White House solar panels?

Liveleak Video

HAHAHAHAHA!
Rabbit Bait; one more FAIL!

373 Killian Bundy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:48:36pm

Men smell of cheese and women of onions

LITTLE girls may be made of sugar and spice and all things nice, but their armpits smell of onions. And while free of slug or snail odours, men's armpits pack a powerful cheesy whiff.

That's the conclusion of research in Switzerland that involved taking armpit sweat samples from 24 men and 25 women after they had spent time in a sauna or ridden an exercise bike for 15 minutes.

/hungry for some recipes?

374 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:49:07pm

Hey DocDale, I did end up meeting old TR in London.

375 BignJames  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:49:34pm

re: #369 Wishing

Summer spring winter fall summer spring winter fall....sure seems like a big circle.

Spring before winter would really suck.

376 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:49:41pm

re: #294 Salamantis

Evolution is change in terrestrial species over time. THAT this has happened is incontrovertible, as attested to by the fossil record; HOW it happens is the province of evolutionary theory, and the central evolutionary theory tenets of random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection are supported by vast masses of empirical evidfence, and contradicted by not a single shred.

Now you are creating a belief system.
Why?
Isn't the actual science enough...

In particular, you have created a false statement as an argument, "THAT this has happened is incontrovertible, as attested to by the fossil record".

Plus amazingly you continue, "and contradicted by not a single shred", I'm surprised that you would make that statement and would even go further to bet that you have a list of contradictions that you are waiting to find have been disproved.

Zeal isn't science...

377 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:50:39pm

re: #373 Killian Bundy

I'm so relieved the experts are on top of these things.

378 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:51:05pm

re: #372 JCM

What happened to Rabbit Bait's White House solar panels?

[Video]HAHAHAHAHA!
Rabbit Bait; one more FAIL!

That would be a good name for a comedy special:

Rabbit Bait Carter: Epic Fail.

379 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:51:22pm

re: #368 Unakite

Pi is a mathematical concept that was defined to help man understand nature. The concept of great circles help people navigate around the earth, but nature does not really contain great circles.

UFO conspiracists point to a factor of Pi in the measurements of the Great Pyramids. Till a mathematician pointed out if the Egyptians used a measuring wheel a factor of Pi would have been introduced without them knowing a thing about it.

380 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:52:49pm

re: #372 JCM

What happened to Rabbit Bait's White House solar panels?

Rabbit Bait; one more FAIL!

Ahem. Some of us Rabbits may just object to that.

Sure he's a bunny hater, but he's also a moron. Respect him for that.

381 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:54:20pm

re: #367 Wishing

Thanks Noam, and shame on me for not reading back.

LGF Headlines - Upper-left, right below your control panel.

*scowls, slightly*

You've been here long enough to know that.

*tsk, tsk*

;)

382 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:54:53pm

re: #381 Noam Sayin'

LGF Headlines - Upper-left, right below your control panel.

*scowls, slightly*

You've been here long enough to know that.

*tsk, tsk*

;)

Oh I know where it is...but it was like four down, and i only caught the top two. My bad.

383 JCM  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:55:41pm

re: #380 Buster Bunny

Ahem. Some of us Rabbits may just object to that.

Sure he's a bunny hater, but he's also a moron. Respect him for that.

Rabbit Bait is an embarrassment to more than just bunnie-kind.

Youtube Video
384 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:55:44pm

re: #127 calcajun

Sorry--did not mean to drone on.

Late to the party, but you didn't drone on.

385 Truck Monkey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:56:14pm

re: #372 JCM

What happened to Rabbit Bait's White House solar panels?

HAHAHAHAHA!
Rabbit Bait; one more FAIL!

Jeebus is Jimmah a DOPE.

386 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:56:54pm

re: #380 Buster Bunny

Ahem. Some of us Rabbits may just object to that.

Sure he's a bunny hater, but he's also a moron. Respect him for that.

I don't recall you respecting rabbit haters, Buster. The last one I remember you dealing with was a kids singer who didn't like your music. And by the time it was over, he'd gotten the worst of it.

/Tiny Toons reference

387 FrogMarch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:58:12pm

re: #358 Wishing

OT, but did we already discuss Steele being appointed GOP head?

Yep. And the typical leftard response. How dare a black man not be a leftard!

388 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:58:29pm

OT:

Gosh. I just looked through the Kos thread on Michael Steele.

Yucky place. Not doing that again real soon.

They are not just twisted - they are not very clever.

389 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:59:07pm

re: #387 FrogMarch

Yep. And the typical leftard response. How dare a black man not be a leftard!

Its all a scam. He's not black, he's just really really tan.

390 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:59:13pm

re: #98 Ojoe

Pi is a disgusting number, I think, but it is certainly not 3.

Bucky Fuller was led to the invention of the geodesic dome from the starting point that he hated the number Pi.

He started playing around with "the closest packing of spheres" to see for himself that nature did not really contain the number Pi.

This led him to some useful discoveries.

I was being facetious. As a matter of fact, I use Pi as my logo partially because I've memorized it out to 400 digits after the decimal point!

I can't imagine finding Pi "disgusting" or "hating" Pi. It's a number and it has its uses! Tell me, are there people out there who "hate" hammers or find hammers "disgusting"?

I wanted a memory challenge a while back, and Pi worked for what I was trying to do, so I memorized it. Beyond that, I don't feel much of anything for this numeric tool.

re: #320 Ojoe

Pi never stops. It's a nightmare.

Pi is a circle's circumference divided by its diameter, right? So, we're looking for a relationship between a curved line and a straight line.

The fact that the number goes on forever, instead of being a particular value, is somewhat akin to saying that you can't definitively define the curve in terms of the straight line. It's almost like Pi is telling us the curve and the straight line are from 2 different worlds.

That said, we can limit the number of digits we need for a particular task:

Are you a...

...high school student doing geometry? You'll probably only need 1-2 digits.
...college math student? You'll probably only need 3-4 digits.
...mechanical engineer? You'll probably only need 6 digits.
...architect? You'll probably only need 8 digits.

By the time you get to 40 digits, we're talking circles with a circumference measured in the hundreds of millions of light years and diameters measured to the nearest proton. Anything beyond 40 is really only useful for challenging your memory or testing a computer's speed and accuracy.

Youtube Video
391 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 7:59:50pm

re: #387 FrogMarch

Yep. And the typical leftard response. How dare a black man not be a leftard!

You think Jimmah is bad?

We are still heralding a new age of Hope Theft and Change Appeasement.

The fun just got started !

392 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:01:30pm

re: #390 gmsc

Pi is a circle's circumference divided by its diameter, right? So, we're looking for a relationship between a curved line and a straight line.

Are you a...

...high school student doing geometry? You'll probably only need 1-2 digits.
...college math student? You'll probably only need 3-4 digits.
...mechanical engineer? You'll probably only need 6 digits.
...architect? You'll probably only need 8 digits.

By the time you get to 40 digits, we're talking circles with a circumference measured in the hundreds of millions of light years and diameters measured to the nearest proton. Anything beyond 40 is really only useful for challenging your memory or testing a computer's speed and accuracy.


[Video]

I used 89 digits to get a girl to go out with me. Unfortunately she had a crazy mother so maths didnt help. Spaghetti recipies did.

393 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:01:50pm

re: #383 JCM

Yeee GODS. /runs away

394 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:03:10pm

re: #392 Buster Bunny

I used 89 digits to get a girl to go out with me. Unfortunately she had a crazy mother so maths didnt help. Spaghetti recipies did.

Interesting. So, do we get details on how the 89 digits helped? I can understand the spaghetti recipes, but 89 digits of pi?

395 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:03:50pm

re: #394 gmsc

Interesting. So, do we get details on how the 89 digits helped? I can understand the spaghetti recipes, but 89 digits of pi?

I think he meant the OTHER digits.

396 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:04:09pm

(Did I just type that?)

397 revGDright  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:04:31pm

Now why can't we have a "truth in science" sunday where we expose the global warming zealots as the true creationists they are. Bad science is bad science no matter who uses it.

398 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:04:54pm

re: #376 slokat

Now you are creating a belief system.
Why?
Isn't the actual science enough...

In particular, you have created a false statement as an argument, "THAT this has happened is incontrovertible, as attested to by the fossil record".

But the incontrovertible fact is that terrestrial species have changed over time. The vast majority of the fossils we unearth are of animals that no longer exist. And that's all the word 'evolution' means - change in terrestrial species over time. HOW this happens - the mechanisms BY MEANS OF WHICH this happens - is the province of evolutionary theory.

It ain't belief when there's evidence for it; it's knowledge.

Plus amazingly you continue, "and contradicted by not a single shred", I'm surprised that you would make that statement and would even go further to bet that you have a list of contradictions that you are waiting to find have been disproved.

Zeal isn't science...

Present me with a single shred of credible empirical evidence that contradicts evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandon environmental selection; I triple dog dare ya. Ya can't, because there isn't a single shred of credible empirical evidence out there that DOES contradict evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandon environmental selection. It's a simple, falsifiable fact, and falsifiable by you presenting me with one iota or whit of credible contradicting empirical evidence.

So falsify my statement. I won't hold my breath.

[Link: www.stephenjaygould.org...]

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

[Link: www.springerlink.com...]

[Link: www.actionbioscience.org...]

399 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:04:55pm

re: #396 Wishing

(Did I just type that?)

Maybe it was a stealth post by your doppelganger.

400 Wishing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:05:32pm

re: #399 Catttt

Maybe it was a stealth post by your doppelganger.

..had to be

401 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:06:45pm

re: #400 Wishing

..had to be

I think you're just Wishing at this point.
;)

402 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:06:49pm

re: #394 gmsc

Interesting. So, do we get details on how the 89 digits helped? I can understand the spaghetti recipes, but 89 digits of pi?

She said I was making it up, so of course i grabbed the nearest reference to PI and showed how accurate it was. She then blushed and I asked her out. And her Italian mom didnt know how to make great pasta! So, I made some handmade pasta (never compromise on the eggs) and I think it was the second best Ravioli Calabrese I have ever had.

I dumped her about three weeks later because she was going to 'wait' until she was married for any fun stuff. Nuff said.

403 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:09:45pm

re: #398 Salamantis

Is it just me or does #376 sound a bit like 'controversial' creationists?

404 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:12:08pm

re: #403 Buster Bunny

Is it just me or does #376 sound a bit like 'controversial' creationists?

Yep! *Teach the Controversy! (Drink!)*

405 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:15:10pm

re: #404 Salamantis

Yep! *Teach the Controversy! (Drink!)*

Did you schools today only teach the pregnancy theory of child delivery? They absolutely refuse to mention one word about the story delivering babies.

Teach the controversy!

////////

406 twincitiesgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:18:06pm

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but has anyone read Darwin's Sacred Cause: How a Hatred of Slavery Shaped Darwin's Views on Human Evolution? Is it worth reading?

/I'll check back later

407 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:18:10pm

God. Kossites.

This is what passes for political acumen:

Like how any Black could be a rethug. There's at least on [sic] without a brain.

by gustynpip on Fri Jan 30, 2009 at 01:38:17 PM PST

and this is what passes for wit:

Wocka, wocka. This will be fun.

by accumbens on Fri Jan 30, 2009 at 01:04:48 PM PST

...and then they post a tag line from Gandhi or Bertrand Russell or George Bernard Shaw.

408 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:19:18pm

re: #155 stretch

again - the response was to a statement that fossils would have to "be found consistently out of place" - I recall hearing and reading that some fossils have been found out of place (by upthrusts, inversions, erosion and reburial, etc..), but as I wrote, I personally do not know of any. If there was a lie there somewhere, I don't see it.

So the whole foundation of science (at least in your mind) hinges on your personal experience? And your whole refutation of science hinges on your lack of experience (or just plain ignorance)? "I personally do not know of any" is a very convenient way to keep your head buried in the sand and not take a look and see what is around you.

409 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:19:36pm

re: #398 Salamantis

Wow, bizarre response.

I thought you were more adept...

410 FrogMarch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:20:15pm

OT: The labor movement takes its pound of flesh

money quote:

"The rhetoric about unions always focuses on the workers, but an awful lot of the actual policy seems designed to enhance, not the power of the workers over their employers, but that of the union over the workers."
411 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:21:09pm

What is a true Illiterate record is to stifle debate based on a theological pile of assumptions that have no relevance to a historical record. Scientists work on an ASSUMED pattern of relevance and are quite happy to be corrected when something changes that assumption. But all this 'mankind exists as an unchangeable constant and thats the way its always been' is defying the facts as they stand and bordering on illiteracy. And if people are going to be taught to be dumb, then thats the point at which they become dangerous.

Make no mistake .. ignorance of reality kills people. Better than any evolutionist could.

Black Plague - Killing the cats and dogs (who actually KILLED the rats) to keep the streets clean. Enforcing a lockdown on contaminated families (killing the whole lot of them)

Nigerian Polio - When polio was nearly erradicated worldwide, the Nigerians refused to take injections and means to control polio, believing it to be 'an American conspiracy to sterilise them'. Now, the surviving cases of polio can be DIRECTLY linked back to the original Nigerian strain.

Yes, history hasnt been nice .. but ignorance of what works ends up killing a lot more people than what doing the right thing does.

412 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:22:12pm

re: #163 Charles

If you want to understand '"stretch's" purpose at LGF...

OK, I apologize for responding to "stretch.'

413 swamprat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:24:03pm

re: #407 Catttt

Black Republican; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

White Republican; Abraham Lincoln.


History ain't what they think it is.

414 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:24:50pm

re: #409 slokat

Wow, bizarre response.

I thought you were more adept...

It's not a matter of nuance.

415 DesertSage  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:26:46pm

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius
Age of Aquarius
Aquarius! Aquarius!

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derision's
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation
Aquarius! Aquarius!

Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in!

416 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:26:52pm

re: #403 Buster Bunny

Is it just me or does #376 sound a bit like 'controversial' creationists?

It's just you, I have not mentioned any controversy.
In fact I'm not even discussing science at this point.

Pointing out - the misuse of terms is counterproductive.

417 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:27:57pm

re: #313 JCM

Never in history!
/

Took a while to get down here, but... wonder where we would be now? :)

418 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:28:54pm

re: #415 DesertSage

*tackle*

419 DesertSage  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:29:19pm

Noam?

420 ratherdashing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:30:12pm

re: #44 Charles

I think the point is that it's the religious fundamentalists who are creating the conflict, so religious leaders are the best ones to counter them. This is not a scientific problem. It's a problem with fundamental religion.

And it's a HUGE problem in the Republican Party.


I'm late (again) to the thread and apologize if this was already addressed up thread.

The HUGE problem within the Republican Party were instrumental in getting GWB elected in Ohio in 2004. It was a close race and John Kerry could have won Ohio if not for the grass roots effort to get out the Christian vote. Some of those Christians weren't politically plugged in, until Bush spelled out the differences between he and Kerry in terms they could understand and accept. He (and Rove) focused on abortion and activist judges who pushed gay marriage. Their vote made the difference in Ohio as noticed by several news organizations over the next few days after the election. This pushed Bush over the top in Ohio and for the entire election.

So, sure the Republicans can get rid of this HUGE problem. They can take a stand against the Christian fundamentalists. But, I don't see the wisdom in it in the tight political setting that we now have.

421 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:30:24pm

Sage?

422 wolfie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:30:27pm

re: #415 DesertSage

Is the bony little dog! :D


....but I think he's on acid.

423 DesertSage  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:30:31pm

Here Noam. :')

Youtube Video
424 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:30:35pm

re: #320 Ojoe

Pi never stops. It's a nightmare.

Rust never sleeps.

425 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:30:37pm

re: #417 Unakite

Took a while to get down here, but... wonder where we would be now? :)

Well, if fire won't melt steel, we have an issue.

Steel is not a naturally occurring substance...it is an artifical mix of elements. They are "blended", if you will, by melting them together.

426 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:30:50pm

boocat-

Why are you dinging down my comments? Do you have some sore of beef with me?

427 Killer Tomato  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:30:56pm

re: #418 Noam Sayin'

*tackle*

Oy - there they go again...

428 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:31:14pm

re: #416 slokat

It's just you, I have not mentioned any controversy.
In fact I'm not even discussing science at this point.

Pointing out - the misuse of terms is counterproductive.

As a highly evolved genetic evolution of a stream based from a fish and evolved through years of either environmental or social process to become the creature I am today pretending to be a bunny rabbit ...

I resent that implication.

429 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:31:21pm

re: #426 Sharmuta

boocat-

Why are you dinging down my comments? Do you have some sort of beef with me?

PIMF

430 Boy Hits Car  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:31:28pm

re: #110 Dark_Falcon

And how do the transitions we see in the fossil record (such as the development of hooves or feathers) fit into a theory of special creation?

Trail and Error?

431 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:31:47pm

re: #424 Unakite

Rust never sleeps.

It's better to burn out than to be forgotten?

432 Northern Bandit  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:31:56pm

re: #398 Salamantis

Present me with a single shred of credible empirical evidence that contradicts evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandon environmental selection; I triple dog dare ya. Ya can't, because there isn't a single shred of credible empirical evidence out there that DOES contradict evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandon environmental selection. It's a simple, falsifiable fact, and falsifiable by you presenting me with one iota or whit of credible contradicting empirical evidence.

Well you might want to read David Berlinski, one of the foremost scientific minds today. He takes a fire-axe to the received wisdom around Darwinian evolution. There are in fact severe problems with modern evolutionary theory. It is not nearly as fully understood as is supposed by the layman -- nor has it attained the status of "fact" as so many others aver.

Few people I know lend the biblical literalists much credence, but the BS around evolutionary theory is thick on the ground these decades.

433 DesertSage  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:31:58pm

re: #427 Killer Tomato

Oy - there they go again...

KT!

Now the sun is really shining in!

434 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:31:58pm

re: #340 OldLineTexan

Everlasting pi is delicious.

Only pecan (maybe apple)

435 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:32:24pm

re: #427 Killer Tomato

Oy - there they go again...

another game of nekkid rugby?

436 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:32:47pm

re: #434 Unakite

Only pecan (maybe apple)

Serves 3 .. and a bit.

437 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:32:50pm

re: #423 DesertSage

Here Noam. :')

Embedding disabled by request

438 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:33:08pm

re: #427 Killer Tomato

Oy - there they go again...

Killer!

439 Killer Tomato  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:33:11pm

re: #433 DesertSage

Hey handsome. Missed ya.

440 Buster Bunny  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:33:31pm

re: #435 OldLineTexan

another game of nekkid rugby?

The last time I played that .. I got my tackle tackled and couldnt score for a week.

441 Killer Tomato  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:33:42pm

re: #438 Noam Sayin'

Noam!
:D

442 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:35:12pm

re: #416 slokat

It's just you, I have not mentioned any controversy.
In fact I'm not even discussing science at this point.

Pointing out - the misuse of terms is counterproductive.

But it is an incontrovertible fact that terrestrial species have changed over time. So evolution - which simply asserts that this has happened - is an empirically incontrovetible fact. The term 'fact' is not being misused.

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

443 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:35:44pm

re: #420 ratherdashing


So, sure the Republicans can get rid of this HUGE problem. They can take a stand against the Christian fundamentalists. But, I don't see the wisdom in it in the tight political setting that we now have.


The problem is that it's an already lost battle. Creationists could possibly win, we are just above Turkey and the rest of the Islamic world in recognizing the reality of evolutionary biology. Republicans are far behind Democrats. We are in danger of someday become a backwards 3rd world country if this trend continues. The rest of the planet will carry on without us just fine but we are flirting with our own destruction.

444 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:35:51pm

re: #434 Unakite

Only pecan (maybe apple)

I like pecan pie, but it's basically sugar with nuts on top. I have 20-30 recipes from various families around Texas (you know, everyone has a Great Aunt Pootie that makes THE BEST REAL pecan pie). ;)

Now a dewberry cobbler...

445 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:36:20pm

re: #369 Wishing

Summer spring winter fall summer spring winter fall....sure seems like a big circle.

Repetitive, maybe. Just waiting for spring (then summer, fall, winter, spring ,summer, fall winter...).

446 DesertSage  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:36:45pm

re: #437 Noam Sayin'

Hmmmm.

So how do you post a youtube video now?

447 OldLineTexan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:37:27pm

re: #440 Buster Bunny

The last time I played that .. I got my tackle tackled and couldnt score for a week.

Yeah, but when those boys play it's like the British Inter-Service Nude Leapfrog Finals:

RAF - 29
Army - 24
Royal Navy - 2

448 pink freud  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:37:43pm

re: #446 DesertSage

If you double click on it, it will take you to the original posting at the original site.

449 godfrey  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:38:13pm

re: #441 Killer Tomato

KT!

/it's been a while

450 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:38:24pm

re: #375 BignJames

Spring before winter would really suck.

Didn't catch that.

451 DesertSage  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:39:49pm

re: #448 pink freud

If you double click on it, it will take you to the original posting at the original site.

This is new. I used to be able to just post the link.

Hmmm.

452 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:40:04pm

re: #432 Northern Bandit

Well you might want to read David Berlinski, one of the foremost scientific minds today. He takes a fire-axe to the received wisdom around Darwinian evolution. There are in fact severe problems with modern evolutionary theory. It is not nearly as fully understood as is supposed by the layman -- nor has it attained the status of "fact" as so many others aver.

Few people I know lend the biblical literalists much credence, but the BS around evolutionary theory is thick on the ground these decades.

Ah yes...one of the main Disco Institute shills; in fact, a senior fellow there, right up there with Michael Behe and William Dembski:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

453 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:40:49pm

re: #376 slokat

Now you are creating a belief system.
Why?
Isn't the actual science enough...

In particular, you have created a false statement as an argument, "THAT this has happened is incontrovertible, as attested to by the fossil record".

Plus amazingly you continue, "and contradicted by not a single shred", I'm surprised that you would make that statement and would even go further to bet that you have a list of contradictions that you are waiting to find have been disproved.

Zeal isn't science...

Zeal isn't a refutation of science either.

454 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:41:23pm

re: #446 DesertSage

Hmmmm.

So how do you post a youtube video now?

I think you might be holding your mouth wrong.

/MN fishing gag

455 Killer Tomato  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:41:59pm

re: #449 godfrey

KT!

/it's been a while

Hey! It's like class reunion! (or at least, reunion - maybe not so much class)

456 pink freud  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:42:10pm

re: #451 DesertSage

This is new. I used to be able to just post the link.

Hmmm.

Most are still viewable here, but lately I've been noticing that others are restricted (by the original youtube poster?) from being embedded.

457 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:42:39pm

re: #415 DesertSage

Groan!

458 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:43:33pm

re: #449 godfrey

godfrey!

Wow. If Bubble Girl shows up I'm going to giggle myself silly.

459 ratherdashing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:44:37pm
We are in danger of someday become a backwards 3rd world country if this trend continues. The rest of the planet will carry on without us just fine but we are flirting with our own destruction.

There are other things, such as the rate of out of wedlock births & drug use & other social ills, that will drag us down to third world status before a rejection of evolution will. Christians are desperately trying to hold this country together.

460 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:45:44pm
461 DesertSage  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:45:55pm

re: #458 Noam Sayin'

godfrey!

Wow. If Bubble Girl shows up I'm going to giggle myself silly.

I miss Bubble Girl. She always got my Seinfeld references.

462 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:46:33pm

re: #459 ratherdashing

There are other things, such as the rate of out of wedlock births & drug use & other social ills, that will drag us down to third world status before a rejection of evolution will. Christians are desperately trying to hold this country together.

They won't be able to hold it together by demanding that everyone turn their backs on empirical science and embrace their cherished dogmas, which is what the Disco Institute strives for.

463 swamprat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:48:02pm

re: #163 Charles

If you want to understand '"stretch's" purpose at LGF...

He certainly appears to be in good company. Thomas Aquinas and Paul of Tarsus were not slouches. Many regard Christianity as a reasonable persuasion. I do. But I object to dishonest misstatements, false credentials and willful ignorance taking the place of honest debate. I have seen patterns of the same arguments put forth over and over, by people who have no interest in whether or not they are making any sense, but only post to defend their own misunderstanding of what is being discussed. I doubt if a salient point against evolution would be acknowledged here, but so far there is no fear that such a point would ever be posted because all we get are parrots reading talking points verbatim from the creationist blogs.

Further to those posting here with an agenda;

Please. Stop reading anti-this and anti-that crap from people telling you what to think. Do your own research. Put your brain in gear. Reach your own conclusions. You may get dinged, but it will be your own ding and not a proxy from some guy moving your lips.

464 Killer Tomato  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:48:15pm

re: #461 DesertSage

Just the other day I was thinking about her... that road trip we were going to take out to see you - I was going to teach her to drive a standard.

465 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:49:54pm

re: #379 JCM

UFO conspiracists point to a factor of Pi in the measurements of the Great Pyramids. Till a mathematician pointed out if the Egyptians used a measuring wheel a factor of Pi would have been introduced without them knowing a thing about it.

Good point. Seems like pi has been around before anyone ever realized (recognized?) it. Guess Bucky was just a contrarian.

466 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:50:41pm

re: #463 swamprat

He certainly appears to be in good company. Thomas Aquinas and Paul of Tarsus were not slouches. Many regard Christianity as a reasonable persuasion. I do. But I object to dishonest misstatements, false credentials and willful ignorance taking the place of honest debate. I have seen patterns of the same arguments put forth over and over, by people who have no interest in whether or not they are making any sense, but only post to defend their own misunderstanding of what is being discussed. I doubt if a salient point against evolution would be acknowledged here, but so far there is no fear that such a point would ever be posted because all we get are parrots reading talking points verbatim from the creationist blogs.

Further to those posting here with an agenda;

Please. Stop reading anti-this and anti-that crap from people telling you what to think. Do your own research. Put your brain in gear. Reach your own conclusions. You may get dinged, but it will be your own ding and not a proxy from some guy moving your lips.

Well, so far, no salient point has been made against evolutionary theory - by anyone, anywhere.

467 Wyatt Earp  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:50:43pm

re: #461 DesertSage

I miss Bubble Girl. She always got my Seinfeld references.

Oh YEAH!

468 Wyatt Earp  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:51:28pm

re: #465 Unakite

Good point. Seems like pi has been around before anyone ever realized (recognized?) it. Guess Bucky was just a contrarian.

Mmm . . . pi!

469 swamprat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:51:28pm

re: #461 DesertSage

Check the lounge for one of her incarnations.

470 DesertSage  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:52:56pm

Well, let's see if this one will work?

Youtube Video
471 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:53:22pm

re: #394 gmsc

Interesting. So, do we get details on how the 89 digits helped? I can understand the spaghetti recipes, but 89 digits of pi?

She thought he said "89 pieces of pi."
/

472 wolfie  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:53:27pm

Nice to see you, Sage!

Goodnight all.

473 freedomplow  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:54:29pm

Bought a HD DVD player/ recorder a couple months ago (to put VHS on DVDs) it works great...

It has upconversion and a HDMI output. The TV has DVI... Audio goes out through a red and white (out of the new HD video player into the TV... It is not enough audio.

The TV has 3 different places where you can hook up the five prong analog plugs... For example 360 works great with graphics but not audio.

No HDMI audio... Buy an audio system that will work...

Charles, how about a Tech thread once in a while for your users.

Link Viewer goes too fast...

474 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:54:46pm

re: #432 Northern Bandit

Berlinski's just another paid pseudo-science whore in the stable of Discovery Institute. Please try again.

475 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:55:41pm

re: #402 Buster Bunny

She said I was making it up, so of course i grabbed the nearest reference to PI and showed how accurate it was. She then blushed and I asked her out. And her Italian mom didnt know how to make great pasta! So, I made some handmade pasta (never compromise on the eggs) and I think it was the second best Ravioli Calabrese I have ever had.

I dumped her about three weeks later because she was going to 'wait' until she was married for any fun stuff. Nuff said.

Pi, pasta, and no P*ss..oops, I'll stop there.

476 DesertSage  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:55:42pm

re: #472 wolfie

Nice to see you, Sage!

Goodnight all.

Nice to see you too, wolfie. G'nite :')

477 boocat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:56:24pm

re: #429 Sharmuta

PIMF

Apology accepted. ;)
God bless you and have a wonderful weekend!

478 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:56:38pm

re: #442 Salamantis

Sorry, didn't realize that I had challenged your base belief.

479 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:57:24pm

re: #477 boocat

You have a wonderful weekend too and keep striking those mighty blows for pamela's sake.

480 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:57:56pm

re: #466 Salamantis

Well, so far, no salient point has been made against evolutionary theory - by anyone, anywhere.

Well, large parts of what Stephen J. Gould wrote about, "exaptations", put him at odds with Richard Dawkins, yet somehow Gould thought he was supporting and arguing for evolution anyway. I never could figure out what Gould thought he was saying. Could you?

The thing is, finding things that evolution does not explain, does not weaken it as a theory. What would weaken it as a theory is if it predicted something that could not be observed. That hasn't happened. Too many darned observations, if anything.

If evolution doesnt explain why I like red and you like blue that doesn't affect the thousands of things it does explain.

So, yes, there are things that evolution fails to explain, but these are not weaknesses as such, until and unless a better theory comes along that gets right what evolution now says, plus does better on these other areas, whatever they may be.

481 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:58:11pm

re: #470 DesertSage

Good to go.

Snuggie...

Some people just don't know how to name a product.

482 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 8:58:27pm

Hi.

483 ratherdashing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:00:06pm

re: #482 MandyManners

Hi.

Hi.

484 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:00:21pm

re: #482 MandyManners

Hi.

'sup?

485 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:00:34pm

re: #466 Salamantis

no salient point has been made against evolutionary theory

Not against it, but I think there is a lot more to be learned within it.

486 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:00:44pm

This place is awesome. Arguments about science. Witty retorts. OT MATH discussions! Lame trolls getting stomped and not caring, because they've run off to dinner! Technology doo dads! A hands on honcho who reads our posts and even replies!

After visiting Kos, I view with actual fondness even back-and-forth arguments that annoyed me anon.

Youtube Video
487 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:01:06pm

re: #473 freedomplow

I'm all for more threads on the economy/bailouts/stimulus.

488 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:01:17pm

re: #483 ratherdashing

Hi.

Hi.

489 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:01:30pm

re: #482 MandyManners

Hi.

Hi.

490 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:01:46pm

re: #484 Noam Sayin'

'sup?

Dangit! Miscue on the link.

491 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:01:55pm

re: #478 slokat

Sorry, didn't realize that I had challenged your base belief.

it isn't belief, it's knowledge. belief occurs in the absence of empirical evidence; knowledge occurs in its presence. And there is a colossal and gargantuan amount of empirical evidence for evolutionary theory.

492 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:02:04pm

re: #483 ratherdashing

re: #484 Noam Sayin'

I am in dire need of help. Please go to the Lounge. Please.

493 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:02:08pm

re: #425 OldLineTexan

Well, if fire won't melt steel, we have an issue.

Steel is not a naturally occurring substance...it is an artifical mix of elements. They are "blended", if you will, by melting them together.

You're absolutely right. That was the point of my original question (way up above) to #43 (sorry, came in late and got behind. hard to catch up on a Friday night).

494 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:02:37pm

Alright, everyone say your damn hellos so we can get down to business .

:)

495 ratherdashing  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:04:28pm

re: #492 MandyManners

re: #484 Noam Sayin'

I am in dire need of help. Please go to the Lounge. Please.

sure.

496 BryanS  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:04:34pm

re: #107 stretch

Back to empirical evidence - must I only accept the redefinition of the scientific method as preferred by the evolutionists?

Science...Hah! According to you, we've all been blinded by science. As sort of weird science.

497 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:04:36pm

Why am I not surprised a pamela geller fan would be so petty?

498 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:05:26pm

re: #431 OldLineTexan

It's better to burn out than to be forgotten?

I don't remember.

499 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:06:02pm

re: #491 Salamantis

Cool - so since you have emphatically stated that you don't believe string theory; then that is "false knowledge", and your counter belief is "real knowledge".

500 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:07:28pm

re: #480 itellu3times

Well, large parts of what Stephen J. Gould wrote about, "exaptations", put him at odds with Richard Dawkins, yet somehow Gould thought he was supporting and arguing for evolution anyway. I never could figure out what Gould thought he was saying. Could you?

The thing is, finding things that evolution does not explain, does not weaken it as a theory. What would weaken it as a theory is if it predicted something that could not be observed. That hasn't happened. Too many darned observations, if anything.

If evolution doesnt explain why I like red and you like blue that doesn't affect the thousands of things it does explain.

So, yes, there are things that evolution fails to explain, but these are not weaknesses as such, until and unless a better theory comes along that gets right what evolution now says, plus does better on these other areas, whatever they may be.

There has been a scientific dispute between gradualism and punctuated equilibrium, but the emerging scientific consensus is that they are not mutually exclusive, but are rather poles along a mutational continuum. Sometimes leaps happen (such as in metamutations, like when the highly refined cortical hand-eye coordination module, that had evolved over millions of years, was suddenly also placed in the service of the mouth-ear nexus, allowing us to produce and parse speech) , and other times tiny changes do.

btw: here's an interesting article co-authored by the late Gould:

[Link: ethomas.web.wesleyan.edu...]

501 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:08:05pm

Hello Night Lizards! It's the same in Near Iowa. I'm beginning to think the snow is really permafrost.

So, in honor of the tuatara babies is Charles going to welcome any new hatchlings this evening?

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

502 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:08:33pm
503 stevieray  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:09:17pm

So, what is gonna happen with Pajamas Media when the ad revenue goes away in April?

Is someone with computer skills and ad experience gonna jump on the opportunity to sell ads for an established web network?

504 coquimbojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:09:58pm

Looks like we have a Minyan! Hiya lizards!

I celebrate Darwin too. All truth is from God, so if evolution is true, then i have to deal with it. (It seems pretty compelling, the details are what need to be refined...)

505 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:10:07pm

Sweet dreams!

506 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:10:21pm

re: #444 OldLineTexan

I like pecan pie, but it's basically sugar with nuts on top. I have 20-30 recipes from various families around Texas (you know, everyone has a Great Aunt Pootie that makes THE BEST REAL pecan pie). ;)

Now a dewberry cobbler...

You're right, but I like sugar (and pecans). But I like like it cold, not warm. I like cobblers too, but have to admit, I've never heard of dewberry.

507 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:10:26pm

re: #432 Northern Bandit

Well you might want to read David Berlinski, one of the foremost scientific minds today. He takes a fire-axe to the received wisdom around Darwinian evolution. There are in fact severe problems with modern evolutionary theory. It is not nearly as fully understood as is supposed by the layman -- nor has it attained the status of "fact" as so many others aver.

Few people I know lend the biblical literalists much credence, but the BS around evolutionary theory is thick on the ground these decades.

David Berlinski is about as far from a "foremost scientific mind" as it's possible to be. He's a creationist shill for the Discovery Institute.

508 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:10:30pm

Penn says: Respect for Christians

Youtube Video
509 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:10:59pm

re: #485 Mich-again

Not against it, but I think there is a lot more to be learned within it.

But of course. Scientific theories are always being augmented and refined by new evidence. Their capacity to be augmented and refined by new evidence is a major scientific strength. However, incomplete does not entail incorrect, and the core evolutionary mechanisms of random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection are among the most solidly evidentially grounded in empirical science.

510 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:11:18pm
511 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:11:39pm

OT: I Thought Presidents DID Have a Boss

I read (in the Wall Street Journal) that the new Vice President of the U.S. quipped that he's never had a boss before. Of course it was only a joke, but it's a revealing one. Don't all politicians have a boss--i.e., the people who elect them?

Evidently that's not how most of today's career politicians see it.

This is in abundant evidence with the latest batch of arrogant power-lusters in Washington DC. The current regime got elected saying very little about anything other than "change" and "economic recovery." Now in office, they're well aware of polls showing that a majority of Americans prefer much more limited government than the massive expansion of socialism and nationalization now being put into place. They couldn't care less. Why? Because "we won." It's power that determines truth and what's right in the nation's capital, and increasingly for the rest of us. Might makes right.

In the end, I blame the people who voted in willful mental darkness for allowing themselves to be exploited by these unworthy successors to Madison, Jefferson and Washington. But it doesn't change the fact that the typical politician in 2009 America is exploitative and unconcerned about the right of the individual to live in peace and freedom.

Look at the recently impeached Governor of Illinois for a surreal parody. Really, the dethroned governor was only doing what ordinary politicians do every day--sacrificing some for the sake of others. He was only more open and brazen about it. On our current course, he will be the politician of the future. Didn't any of you read that into his comments? To me, it was as plain as day. In a world that becomes ever more insane every day, the truly insane start to sound rational, because at least they're consistent.

Nevertheless, the Vice President and President work for the people and serve at the pleasure of the people. If the people really want socialism, they're going to get it (and will deserve every bit of the results). If they don't want it, then the politicians who expanded it will be punished. Assuming we continue to have elections in this country, the current President and Vice President are up for reelection in four years (and for a vote of approval or disapproval in Congress, in two years).

The whole idea of a limited government was one inhabited by elected officials who would serve the people in a limited way, and then move on. The U.S. was not constructed to have a government of career politicians who feel like they answer to nobody. That's what the Soviet Union was for, that's what Communist China is for, and that's what places like Iran are for. Of course, the people who originally inhabited the U.S. must have been by and large a different sort of people. I don't think they would have elected--or even considered--the type of people holding the highest office today. Given that they were willing to fight and even die for the Constitution and Bill of Rights, they would never have nominated (much less elected) into office leaders who consider such things irrelevant obstacles to their personal power.

512 palarson  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:12:35pm

Belief in ID does not preclude belief in science.
Belief in science does not preclude belief in ID.
Do not trust those who insist otherwise.

513 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:13:39pm

re: #509 Salamantis

random genetic mutation

I have a problem with random. I say everything happens for a reason. Random is a cop out for I don't understand it.

514 avanti  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:14:03pm

Interesting comment via Hot Air from Arena :


Over at the Arena, Democratic strategist Lanny Davis had some interesting comments about the RNC Chairman’s race. He said:

Michael Steele was positively my last preference for RNC Chair — since he was, and is, by far, the most effective, articulate center - right voice of the Republican Party, with a firm but friendly manner on TV and, thus, the best possible choice for the GOP to appeal to the broad middle of American society. For all those reasons, I hoped the RNC would not elect him. I am surprised that a party that currently has Rush Limbaugh as its leading voice (my personal preference for Republican Chair) would be wise enough to reject Mr. Limbaugh and elect Michael Steele.

As a Democrat, I am very disappointed.

515 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:16:04pm

re: #499 slokat

Cool - so since you have emphatically stated that you don't believe string theory; then that is "false knowledge", and your counter belief is "real knowledge".

Unlike evolutionary theory, there doesn't seem to be any way to empirically falsify string theory, so I question its status as a science. It seems to be a mathematica castle in the air, lacking all investigable connections with the empirical domain. Garrett Lisi's GUTOE, on the other hand, will soon be empirically tested by the search for the Higgs Boson in the large hadron Collider. It will either be verified or falsified as a result - which is what must be possible of an assertion for it to be considered to be scientific.

516 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:16:23pm

re: #500 Salamantis

There has been a scientific dispute between gradualism and punctuated equilibrium, but the emerging scientific consensus is that they are not mutually exclusive, but are rather poles along a mutational continuum. Sometimes leaps happen (such as in metamutations, like when the highly refined cortical hand-eye coordination module, that had evolved over millions of years, was suddenly also placed in the service of the mouth-ear nexus, allowing us to produce and parse speech) , and other times tiny changes do.

btw: here's an interesting article co-authored by the late Gould:

[Link: ethomas.web.wesleyan.edu...]

Yes, exactly, famous article.

Also annoying as hell.

"Punctuated equilibrium" is no explanation at all when it comes to evolution.

Neither, btw, is Dawkins' "hey it's all chance".

The only way evolution works, the only way biology works, is if there are some deterministic rules with a few degrees of freedom, and lots and lots of time and space to work them. We still have only the foggiest idea of how those rules work, but still, we should be proud of what we know. As I ranted about last night, a lot of this knowledge is pretty recent, 1955 for the structure of DNA, 1970s for the beginnings of molecular biology, and we are still discovering just what the roles are of RNA elements, and possibly others.

There is zero chance that science is wrong about atoms existing, and, well, almost zero chance that what we now know about evolution is mistaken to any great degree. Just about as likely it will turn out the world is flat, after all.

517 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:16:51pm

Hey y'all - sorry I'm so late - are we still OT?

518 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:17:42pm

Evolution is intelligent design.

--P.J. O'Rourke


(My personal favorite)

519 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:17:45pm

re: #499 slokat

Cool - so since you have emphatically stated that you don't believe string theory; then that is "false knowledge", and your counter belief is "real knowledge".

Gosh, but that's stupid. You can't even try to be clever and astute without garbling your terms.

Theoretical physics is not a belief system! Who would the preacher be - Juan Maldacena?

Humpfh.

520 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:18:11pm

re: #518 ggt Hey ggt, how are you tonight? How's your dad?

521 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:18:17pm

re: #514 avanti

Interesting comment via Hot Air from Arena :

Over at the Arena, Democratic strategist Lanny Davis had some interesting comments about the RNC Chairman’s race. He said:

Michael Steele was positively my last preference for RNC Chair — since he was, and is, by far, the most effective, articulate center - right voice of the Republican Party, with a firm but friendly manner on TV and, thus, the best possible choice for the GOP to appeal to the broad middle of American society. For all those reasons, I hoped the RNC would not elect him. I am surprised that a party that currently has Rush Limbaugh as its leading voice (my personal preference for Republican Chair) would be wise enough to reject Mr. Limbaugh and elect Michael Steele.

As a Democrat, I am very disappointed.

i love when democrats are disappointed

522 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:18:46pm

re: #517 realwest

Hey y'all - sorry I'm so late - are we still OT?

hey RW, I'm still here. Thanks for your e-mail. Leaving tomorrow morning.

How ya' doin?

523 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:19:19pm

re: #520 realwest

Hey ggt, how are you tonight? How's your dad?

Moving to a rehab facility, I'll know more when I get there tomorrow.

Thanks for askin'.

524 Timbre  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:19:23pm

I understand nothing, yet do not understand nothingness.

525 swamprat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:19:24pm

re: #466 Salamantis

You could do a good job if you set your mind to it;

Where are the beneficial virus? They should exist. (I know, they probably do)

Genome/DNA increase; Evidence for, via retro- viruses, but not "proved". (reduction has been "proved" to my satisfaction)

System degradation (not thermal, because we live in the glare of a nuclear star) All systems degrade; why not the DNA system?(it probably shall, but may be very robust.(don't start with self-repairing, that can only go so far.)

The suspicious adaptability of evolution(I know some one will run with this ball, but it is flat) Real big? Evolution! Small? Evolution! Tail? Evolution! No tail? Evolution! Pink, green, black, smart, dumb, fast, slow, blind, sharp-sighted, furry, feathered, clawed or hooved, all evolution.


The really sad thing is, whether or not this gets refuted. I believe this will get read and will appear on a creationist thread soon.

Because someone will decide that this is the perfect way to "prove" god.
Proving god. That is the problem. If god does not exist, well and good. If god does exist he does not need to be "proved". He can do ok on his own. He does "not need our bull". "Not needing our bull" is alluding to a passage in the bible were god "allegedly" explains that sacrifices are for our benefit, not his. HE does not need a bunch of dead doves, cows, sheep, wheat or any of that junk. He's got some.

526 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:19:51pm

re: #517 realwest

Hey y'all - sorry I'm so late - are we still OT?

Hi! Topic? There's a topic? :D

527 BignJames  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:19:55pm

re: #514 avanti

Doesn't Rush say that he's not a Republican...but a conservative?

528 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:20:48pm

re: #513 Mich-again

I have a problem with random. I say everything happens for a reason. Random is a cop out for I don't understand it.

Just because you do not understand something doesn't make it untrue. When solar radiation alters one base pair of a genome rather than another sitting right next to it, such a happenstance is indeed random. What is NOT random is environmental conditions - temperature, moisture coefficient, predators, prey, parasites, etc. - selecting which mutations perdure, by organisms possessing mutations that render them unable to thrive in their ecological niche dying before they can reproduce.

529 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:20:55pm

re: #512 palarson

Belief in ID does not preclude belief in science.
Belief in science does not preclude belief in ID.
Do not trust those who insist otherwise.

I can believe six impossible things before breakfast, but in general, I don't recommend you try it at home. It may be possible to believe (sic) in ID and science both, but it so happens I have never seen it done. More to the point, I'm not interested in what anyone believes, I'm interested in what they say, and how it works in practice.

530 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:21:18pm

re: #503 stevieray
Hey stevieray - what's happening with Pajamas Media such that all the ad revenue is going away in April?

531 BryanS  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:21:27pm

re: #513 Mich-again

I have a problem with random. I say everything happens for a reason. Random is a cop out for I don't understand it.

Random phenomena are found in nature all the time, especially at the scale. If you have a problem with randomness, you have a problem with the world you live in.

532 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:21:36pm

re: #515 Salamantis

Hammer tactic, don't like the theory since it is inconsistent with cherished beliefs, so "poof" it's not science...

Cool, you are mimicking those that you consider to be trolls... and you claim that you aren't subtle. I think you are too modest.

533 Lynn B.  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:21:53pm

re: #514 avanti

Link and quote features are offered here ^^ ... and very helpful.

Thanx.

534 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:22:51pm

re: #514 avanti

Interesting comment via Hot Air from Arena :

Over at the Arena, Democratic strategist Lanny Davis had some interesting comments about the RNC Chairman’s race. He said:

Michael Steele was positively my last preference for RNC Chair — since he was, and is, by far, the most effective, articulate center - right voice of the Republican Party, with a firm but friendly manner on TV and, thus, the best possible choice for the GOP to appeal to the broad middle of American society. For all those reasons, I hoped the RNC would not elect him. I am surprised that a party that currently has Rush Limbaugh as its leading voice (my personal preference for Republican Chair) would be wise enough to reject Mr. Limbaugh and elect Michael Steele.

As a Democrat, I am very disappointed.

Interesting. As a resident of Maryland, I've been pulling for Michael Steele, because I know what he wants to do and how capable he is. I'm very happy - and I'm a Democrat. :D If he does as well as I think he will, I might switch parties.

535 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:22:58pm

re: #516 itellu3times

Yes, exactly, famous article.

Also annoying as hell.

"Punctuated equilibrium" is no explanation at all when it comes to evolution.

Neither, btw, is Dawkins' "hey it's all chance".

The only way evolution works, the only way biology works, is if there are some deterministic rules with a few degrees of freedom, and lots and lots of time and space to work them. We still have only the foggiest idea of how those rules work, but still, we should be proud of what we know. As I ranted about last night, a lot of this knowledge is pretty recent, 1955 for the structure of DNA, 1970s for the beginnings of molecular biology, and we are still discovering just what the roles are of RNA elements, and possibly others.

There is zero chance that science is wrong about atoms existing, and, well, almost zero chance that what we now know about evolution is mistaken to any great degree. Just about as likely it will turn out the world is flat, after all.

Neither gradualism nor punctuated equilibrium alone suffice, but, as I remarked previously, they are not mutually exclusive; it's not an either/or, and both/and works.

536 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:23:07pm

Its official. Not a fan of the lounge.

537 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:23:46pm

re: #534 Catttt

Interesting. As a resident of Maryland, I've been pulling for Michael Steele, because I know what he wants to do and how capable he is. I'm very happy - and I'm a Democrat. :D If he does as well as I think he will, I might switch parties.

i want you to be happy catttt and i want to be happy that you are happy!

538 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:24:45pm

re: #516 itellu3times

almost zero chance that what we now know about evolution is mistaken to any great degree. Just about as likely it will turn out the world is flat, after all.

Not so fast there. That there says that every part of the prevailing theory so far is true and all that is left is to keep plodding along to the answer. But in reality, sometimes you can get close to the very end of the maze but find yourself at a dead end and then realize you have to go back a bit and take a different turn. I think that is a better description of where we are at figuring out how evolution works.

539 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:24:49pm

Whats the guys active political history? Is he conservative, or more centrist?

540 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:24:54pm

re: #510 Iron Fist

I swear, man, your nic just looks wrong. When I see it, I read it as "Unakike", not "Unakite". Now that I've read it a few times, it isn't as jarring as it was the first time I saw it, at least.

Now that I've stopped laughing, thanks, I think. I've misread many things and had to do a double-take. I can't touch Unakike, but unakite is a granitic rock that is named for the Unaka mountains in North Carolina (just thought I'd clear that up).

541 BryanS  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:24:57pm

re: #515 Salamantis

Unlike evolutionary theory, there doesn't seem to be any way to empirically falsify string theory, so I question its status as a science. It seems to be a mathematica castle in the air, lacking all investigable connections with the empirical domain. Garrett Lisi's GUTOE, on the other hand, will soon be empirically tested by the search for the Higgs Boson in the large hadron Collider. It will either be verified or falsified as a result - which is what must be possible of an assertion for it to be considered to be scientific.

Correct on the falsifiable question in string theory. String theory is rather light on predictions...and the comical solution to any pesky fact getting in the way of the latest version of the theory is to simply add more dimensions to "make it work". String theory has all the hallmarks of a religion.

542 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:25:55pm

re: #510 Iron Fist

I swear, man, your nic just looks wrong. When I see it, I read it as "Unakike", not "Unakite". Now that I've read it a few times, it isn't as jarring as it was the first time I saw it, at least.

Now I'm going to be really self-conscious.
/

543 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:26:27pm

re: #519 Catttt

I think you misread my comment, Sal is the one that professed disbelief & counter belief in the thread last night. And again, now.

We all have belief systems concerning any subject we encounter, even science.

544 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:26:41pm

Here's some Hopeychange...

Hope!

WASHINGTON - Buried deep inside the massive spending orgy that Democrats jammed through the House this week lie five words that could drastically undo two decades of welfare reforms.

The very heart of the widely applauded Welfare Reform Act of 1996 is a cap on the amount of federal cash that can be sent to states each year for welfare payments.

But, thanks to the simple phrase slipped into the legislation, the new "stimulus" bill abolishes the limits on the amount of federal money for the so-called Emergency Fund, which ships welfare cash to states.

"Out of any money in the Treasury of the United States not otherwise appropriated, there are appropriated such sums as are necessary for payment to the Emergency Fund," Democrats wrote in Section 2101 on Page 354 of the $819 billion bill. In other words, the only limit on welfare payments would be the Treasury itself.

"This re-establishes the welfare state and creates dependency all over the place," said one startled budget analyst after reading the line.

In addition to reopening the floodgates of dependency on federal welfare programs, the change once again deepens the dependency of state governments on the federal government.

Change!

The Obama administration has asked the military's Joint Chiefs of Staff to cut the Pentagon's budget request for the fiscal year 2010 by more than 10 percent -- about $55 billion -- a senior U.S. defense official tells FOX News.

545 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:27:11pm

re: #514 avanti Yup, I believe top Democratic Strategist Lanny Davis - iirc, he's the first Dem to say McCain would be the most formidible foe for the Dems to have to take on in last Novembers' elections.
It's known - politely - as shilling for someone you think you can beat up on pretty good.
Now I've heard a lot of things about Steele, good and bad, but since he got beat - and prety badly, iirc - in his race for Senator in Maryland, I do have questions about his ability to run NATIONAL campaigns, much less State-wide campaigns.

546 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:27:25pm

re: #537 phoenixgirl

i want you to be happy catttt and i want to be happy that you are happy!

What a nice thing to say. :D I'm happy!

547 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:27:34pm

re: #531 BryanS

If you have a problem with randomness, you have a problem with the world you live in.

You are helping prove my point that randomness is a cop out for I don't understand it. You are insulting the ones who disagree with you. Cognitive dissonance 101.

548 exredtory  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:28:45pm

The religious traditions I (half-assedly) follow teaches that the three pillars of the faith are scripture, tradition and reason, and one is expected to employ all three as fully and equally as possible.

The pastoral letter reflects this.

549 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:29:50pm

re: #538 Mich-again

Not so fast there. That there says that every part of the prevailing theory so far is true and all that is left is to keep plodding along to the answer. But in reality, sometimes you can get close to the very end of the maze but find yourself at a dead end and then realize you have to go back a bit and take a different turn. I think that is a better description of where we are at figuring out how evolution works.

Sure, OK, fine, I don't want to argue over the metaphors. My own take is that we know too little, maybe some of that little is wrong, but the main problem is filling out the theory. After all, that's pretty much how it went for the Newtonian to relativistic physics theory - the old one turned out to be a special case of the newer one. Nothing wrong, just incomplete. Probably too much to ask in general, I agree. Epicycles did NOT turn out to be a special case of heliocentric and gravitational orbits.

550 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:31:06pm

re: #536 logboy Hey logboy, how come you're not a fan of the lounge? And what on earth did you do in there to get a dingdown just for saying that by phoenixgirl?

551 avanti  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:31:09pm

re: #521 phoenixgirl

i love when democrats are disappointed

I'm a independent that's voted both ways,so I'm in favor of two srong parties. I'm from Md, and like Steel.

552 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:31:53pm

re: #549 itellu3times

Sure, OK, fine, I don't want to argue over the metaphors. My own take is that we know too little, maybe some of that little is wrong, but the main problem is filling out the theory. After all, that's pretty much how it went for the Newtonian to relativistic physics theory - the old one turned out to be a special case of the newer one. Nothing wrong, just incomplete. Probably too much to ask in general, I agree. Epicycles did NOT turn out to be a special case of heliocentric and gravitational orbits.


?WTF?

553 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:32:08pm

re: #549 itellu3times

Nothing wrong, just incomplete

That is close to how I would describe where science is regarding evolution.

554 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:33:15pm

re: #550 realwest

{realwest}

555 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:33:23pm

re: #550 realwest

hi real, log was fine in the lounge, i just dinged him down for the comment when he came out.....the lounge lizards love the lounge!

556 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:33:46pm

re: #551 avanti

I'm a independent that's voted both ways,so I'm in favor of two srong parties. I'm from Md, and like Steel.

My parents were in the iron and steel business. My mother would iron, and my father would steal!

*rimshot*

557 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:33:49pm

She gave me a down ding? Seriously?

558 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:34:11pm

re: #557 logboy

yes, i did

559 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:34:32pm

Any of you read about this group? The comment about punctuated equilibrium reminded me of the link: [Link: www.gladwell.com...]

It's not quite on the topic, but it is an interesting long read.

560 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:35:19pm

re: #536 logboy
Y'all can wiki him - it's been updated to show his chairmanship of the RNC.
I think he's more to the right than anything else, but he really hasn't been that successful in running for political office himself and you can read it here:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

561 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:35:44pm

re: #557 logboy

Don't worry about it- I've been getting dinged down all day because I called pamela geller a hypocrite last week.

562 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:35:46pm

Hey has anyone seen Dusty Vet out here recently tonight?

563 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:36:04pm

re: #561 Sharmuta

i'll ding you up for that

564 stevieray  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:36:26pm

re: #530 realwest

Hey stevieray - what's happening with Pajamas Media such that all the ad revenue is going away in April?

Looks like PJM is shutting down its blog support and going 100% PJTV instead.

Ace, Jawa, Protein Wisdom, etc... all got letters today... they're on their own beginning in the second quarter.

565 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:36:39pm

re: #560 realwest

Y'all can wiki him - it's been updated to show his chairmanship of the RNC.
I think he's more to the right than anything else, but he really hasn't been that successful in running for political office himself and you can read it here:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

There was a period of only about 10 seconds between the time it was officially announced, and the time the wiki page was updated with his new status as RNC chair!

566 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:36:50pm

bbiab

567 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:36:50pm

re: #525 swamprat

You could do a good job if you set your mind to it;

Where are the beneficial virus? They should exist. (I know, they probably do)

Some organisms that infest us are parasites, and are detrimental; others are symbionts, and are beneficial - for instance, the bacteria in our guts that help to break down the food we eat so we can better absorb its nutrients.

Genome/DNA increase; Evidence for, via retro- viruses, but not "proved". (reduction has been "proved" to my satisfaction)

When a retroviral gene sequence is spliced into our genome, it cannot help but to add to it. And such sequences also immunize us against some viral infections.

System degradation (not thermal, because we live in the glare of a nuclear star) All systems degrade; why not the DNA system?(it probably shall, but may be very robust.(don't start with self-repairing, that can only go so far.)

Genetic sequences DO degrade; this is how we can date the insertion of artifactual retroviral DNA sequnces. And it is also why older women are more likely to bear children with deformities. And why, if virile men don't have sex for a month, they have a nocternal emission (to clean out the old degraded semen and make way for the newer baby batter).

The suspicious adaptability of evolution(I know some one will run with this ball, but it is flat) Real big? Evolution! Small? Evolution! Tail? Evolution! No tail? Evolution! Pink, green, black, smart, dumb, fast, slow, blind, sharp-sighted, furry, feathered, clawed or hooved, all evolution.

Organisms displaying configurations or traits based in maladaptive mutations don't survive to reproduce. And there are a helluva lot more of them than there are beneficial mutations.

The really sad thing is, whether or not this gets refuted. I believe this will get read and will appear on a creationist thread soon.

Only if they excise my answers...;~)

Because someone will decide that this is the perfect way to "prove" god.
Proving god. That is the problem. If god does not exist, well and good. If god does exist he does not need to be "proved". He can do ok on his own. He does "not need our bull". "Not needing our bull" is alluding to a passage in the bible were god "allegedly" explains that sacrifices are for our benefit, not his. HE does not need a bunch of dead doves, cows, sheep, wheat or any of that junk. He's got some.

Yep. The existence or nonexistence of God and the human belief in the existence or nonexistence of God are not dependently related things.

568 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:37:10pm

re: #543 slokat

I think you misread my comment, Sal is the one that professed disbelief & counter belief in the thread last night. And again, now.

We all have belief systems concerning any subject we encounter, even science.

No, I did not. I read the prior comments. I merely refused to use your terms, because you refuse to define them to any standard.

My comment stands - you twist what others say in a most disengenuous manner. Your idea of "facts" is as solid as the sand in the tide. You start with your personal beliefs and then try to force everything into that tidy little box.

There are of course people here with whom I do not agree, but I certainly can have a decent discussion with them - a give and take, where I often learn something. This does not apply at all to you.

There are two things which cannot be attacked in front: ignorance and narrow-mindedness. They can only be shaken by the simple development of the contrary qualities. They will not bear discussion.

~Lord Acton

569 BryanS  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:37:10pm

re: #525 swamprat

You could do a good job if you set your mind to it;

Where are the beneficial virus? They should exist. (I know, they probably do)


So many things to tick off, and I'm still catching up to get into the this thread coming late to it.

I'll start with this potion I clipped from your post. There has been a good amount of evidence that co-infection with certain viruses among AIDS patients slows the progression of the disease.

570 swamprat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:37:25pm

re: #525 swamprat


By the way; I am betting on evolution; When I say that I expect to find beneficial viruses because evolution indicates they should exist, I am not being fanciful. We know about viruses that harm because they are obvious, but I believe we will find beneficial viruses because evolution indicates this should be so.


And thus is born another creationist talking point; "Where are the benficial viruses?"

But they will be found, and another argument will bite the dust.

571 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:37:59pm

Hey Phoenix,

I only have three working fingers because I got the other ones blown off in Iraq. So I cannot possibly type fast enough to keep up to any conservation, hence the reason I don't like the lounge. Care to down-ding me again for my disability? Yeah, didn't think so.

572 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:38:10pm

re: #554 Noam Sayin'
HEY NOAM! Uh, hugs for me Norm? Really, you shouldn't have *tackle* ..........ouch, hey you're a lot bigger than I thought you were!
:)
How are you doing my friend?

573 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:38:45pm

re: #540 Unakite

Now that I've stopped laughing, thanks, I think. I've misread many things and had to do a double-take. I can't touch Unakike, but unakite is a granitic rock that is named for the Unaka mountains in North Carolina (just thought I'd clear that up).

And for all of you that are still awake and interested, Unakite predates the creation of the earth by several hundred million years (but since some people did not personally experience the formation of the Appalachian mountains they don't exist, so don't go planning your next camping trip).

574 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:38:48pm

lre: #571 logboy

? sorry, not a mind reader here......

575 swamprat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:39:02pm

re: #569 BryanS

Damn, son!
That was quick!

576 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:39:17pm

Right, Wrong, and Meaningless

• "Why do I keep dropping things?"
• "It’s the shoons."
• "What are shoons?"
• "Invisible beings that pull things out of your hands and throw them on the floor."
• "Why would I believe that?"
• "Well, if you can’t disprove it, you have to believe it."
• "But you didn’t prove it."
• "I can feel them. You can feel them too You’re just in denial."
• "Well I don’t believe it."
• "So you are an ashoonist."
• "What’s an ashoonist?"
• "One who arbitrarily refuses to believe in shoons. You wonder why you drop things, but you arbitrarily reject the explanation."
• "Okay then, I’m an ashoonist."
• "But ashoonists are all cynics and killjoys! Is that the kind of company you want to keep?"

What a silly way to argue! Or is it? If you separate the method of argument from the content, then you might notice that it is the most common of all methods of argument: the arbitrary declaration. They say that something is so, and you have to either disprove it or agree with it. Refusing to do either is joining the Meanies.

It’s a paradox. You cannot reject an assertion without reason, but you could waste the whole day finding reasons to reject arbitrary assertions. Ayn Rand’s epistemology solves the paradox by taking away permission to make assertions in the first place without reasons.

Come to think of it, where did that permission come from? If an assertion does not come with an observable connection to reality, why would anybody pay attention to it? Well, if it has to be either right or wrong, then you have to decide which, and you have to be reasonable. So you can’t reject anything without disproving it.

But what if a statement could be something else besides right or wrong? What if it could also be simply meaningless?

Right and wrong are relationships to reality – correspondence and non-correspondence. To judge a statement as right or wrong, you compare it to reality, by finding what part of reality it compares to. If a statement does not say what part of reality it compares to, then it is presented without connection to reality. It could mean all sorts of things, depending on where it fits in reality. Since that is not specified, it means nothing. It conveys words, but not meaning. Since you cannot call it right, and you cannot call it wrong, you call it arbitrary. Arbitrary means lacking any evidence of a relationship to reality.

To treat arbitrary assertions as right is to be a self-made sucker. To treat them as wrong is to try judging without evidence. The objective way is to realize that assertions without evidence are meaningless. No matter how much emotion they contain, nothing has been said.

Here’s a completion of the original argument:

• "Wait! Before you told me about the shoons, was I a shoonist, or an ashoonist?"
• "Well, neither. That word just meant nothing to you."
• "And it still means nothing to me. Try me again when you’ve got evidence."

577 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:39:29pm

{logboy} That's understandable then.

578 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:39:52pm

re: #574 phoenixgirl

l

? sorry, not a mind reader here......

Then don't be so quick to judge.

579 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:39:59pm

re: #532 slokat

Hammer tactic, don't like the theory since it is inconsistent with cherished beliefs, so "poof" it's not science...

Cool, you are mimicking those that you consider to be trolls... and you claim that you aren't subtle. I think you are too modest.

Nope. Lisi's GUTOE is empirically testable; string theory is not. Them's the facts, when it comes to brass tacks, and empirical testability is the bright line drawn in the sand between scientific and nonscientific assertions.

580 Stonemason  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:40:20pm

re: #561 Sharmuta

I thought that was proven a long time ago?

581 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:40:42pm

Just in from the theatre (another small crowd tonight, I thought Obama was going to change this).

Anything happening? Any NON critical thinkers posting silly comments tonight?

582 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:41:01pm

re: #580 Stonemason

Is it that surprising her fans would be so petty?

583 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:41:27pm

re: #571 logboy

Hey Phoenix,

I only have three working fingers because I got the other ones blown off in Iraq. So I cannot possibly type fast enough to keep up to any conservation, hence the reason I don't like the lounge. Care to down-ding me again for my disability? Yeah, didn't think so.

We do honor your sacrifice. I don't much care for the lounge either - too fast, even though I type fast.

Have you looked into alternative user interface methods? I have a speech to text thing on my comp, but you have to work with it to get it to recognize your pronunciation. Plus when I use it, my cats think I've gone nuts and jump on me.

584 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:41:38pm

Moving on, where exactly do you see who in The House voted for or against a bill? I'm on their website, and dang is it confusing. I want to see if my Rep voted for the Porkulis Bill.

585 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:41:59pm

re: #578 logboy

Then don't be so quick to judge.

note to self, i must go thru my log book of every nic's background before i comment. oh wait there isn't one.....

wasn't judging you, defending an enjoyable part for many on this blog.

586 Pietr  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:42:08pm

re: #556 gmsc

My parents were in the iron and steel business. My mother would iron, and my father would steal!

*rimshot*

You started it...

The Redhead..
A man is dining in a fancy restaurant and there is a gorgeous redhead sitting at the next table. He has been checking her out since he sat down, but lacks the nerve to talk with her.
Suddenly she sneezes, and her glass eye comes flying out of its socket toward the man. He reflexively reaches out, grabs it out of the air, and hands it back.

'Oh my, I am so sorry,' the woman says as she pops her eye back in place.

'Let me buy your dinner to make it up to you,' she says.

They enjoy a wonderful dinner together, and afterwards they go to the theatre followed by drinks. They talk, they laugh, she shares her deepest dreams and
he shares his. She listens.

After paying for everything, she asks him if he would like to come to her place for a nightcap and stay for breakfast. They had a wonderful, wonderful time.

The next morning, she cooks a gourmet meal with all the trimmings. The guy is amazed. Everything had been SO incredible!
'You know,' he said, 'you are the perfect woman. Are you this nice to every guy you meet?'

'No,' she replies. . .



'You just happened to catch my eye.'

587 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:42:16pm

re: #561 Sharmuta
Hey Sharm! I just updinged you're comment to help make up for the downdings you got TODAY (?) you got for calling her a hypocrite last week.
I don't understand why someone would downding you today for ANYTHING you said last week, especially cause what you said is true!

588 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:42:27pm

re: #538 Mich-again

Not so fast there. That there says that every part of the prevailing theory so far is true and all that is left is to keep plodding along to the answer. But in reality, sometimes you can get close to the very end of the maze but find yourself at a dead end and then realize you have to go back a bit and take a different turn. I think that is a better description of where we are at figuring out how evolution works.

So much supporting empirical evidence would have to be otherwise explained for random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection to be overturned as evolutionary principles that I just don't see it happening. Any more than I see the heliocentric model of the solar system being overturned.

589 swamprat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:42:41pm

re: #567 Salamantis

Getting late I know.

When a retroviral gene sequence is spliced into our genome, it cannot help but to add to it. And such sequences also immunize us against some viral infections.

Are viruses possibly the key to new species?

590 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:43:14pm

RW - besides my ego - what do you think?

Suspicions confirmed.

Over the years I have studied and had the honor of sitting at the feet of luminaries such as Virginia Satir, Buckminister Fuller, Richard Bandler, Leslie Camron-Bandler and others - I was on a personal mission to learn outside of the conventional “education system” in the 70s-80s and 90s.

Amongst insight, their teaching fined tuned my calibration and ability to enhance my personal BS detector.

I attended the protest at St. Mary’s College the other night NOT realizing that the general public would be allowed to enter the Soda Center and witness the Bill Ayers session. So without a recording device (Damn!) - I got in.

Ayers is very good at what he does. He defused the majority of protestors stating that he would answer all questions no matter how long it took after his presentation. (Licking chops and respectfully most waited - we got sucked in - it did not happen with mikes on and only for a few minutes before he bugged out).

I have to say the man is an eloquent speaker and thinker. (so were other monsters of history).

What he said about educational reform and his take on Obama’s Foreign Policy thinking sounded like Utopia. And to the students and uneducated about the truth of his former acts he seemed a brilliant reformer - and they got sucked in as well.

To me his rhetoric was a well veiled justification for his activities of domestic terrorism twisted into personal values and the need to act.

It will be no surprise to Lizards that what he spoke of is dangerous, unattainable (without becoming a Socialist/Communist entity), and will cost many American (and other) lives on the road to what he, Obama and Code Pink are working for.

The news today reporting his executive actions over the last few days supports my conclusions.

I was stunned at what he said. Had he spoken out as he did at St. Mary’s during the race for the White House - we would have elected a carrot; Bugs Bunny or Daffy Duck rather than Obama. (I’m thinking that the majority would have seen thru the BS and rhetoric. I could be wrong.)

We all have work to do.

591 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:43:29pm

Did you ever try out Dragonspeak or other speech to text apps Logboy? You might look into it, I have some friends who swear by it, and sometimes with it.

592 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:44:05pm

re: #574 phoenixgirl
Uh, y'all might want to click on his avatar.
Just sayin - not looking for a fight!

593 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:44:29pm

re: #572 realwest

How are you doing my friend?

Same as always; back to the wall, knife hidden behind my left thigh - metaphorically speaking, of course.

594 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:44:43pm

re: #543 slokat

I think you misread my comment, Sal is the one that professed disbelief & counter belief in the thread last night. And again, now.

We all have belief systems concerning any subject we encounter, even science.

When something can be empirically tested, belief is not necessary. When it can't be empirically tested, belief is required. Lisi's GUTOE can be empirically tested, string theory cannot. End of story.

595 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:44:46pm

re: #587 realwest

Who can understand the mental workings of her fan base? I noticed it earlier today, but when "boocat" started in on this thread, I called him/her on it and then went digging around for an explanation. That's all I can think of as a cause as to why this person dinged me down all day. Pathetic.

596 BryanS  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:45:10pm

re: #545 realwest

...Now I've heard a lot of things about Steele, good and bad, but since he got beat - and prety badly, iirc - in his race for Senator in Maryland, I do have questions about his ability to run NATIONAL campaigns, much less State-wide campaigns.

He lost 54-44, but in Maryland! It's not like he could do any better than that other famous Republican from Maryland. Oh, wait...never mind. There aren't any.

597 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:45:53pm

re: #581 Walter L. Newton

Just in from the theatre (another small crowd tonight, I thought Obama was going to change this).

Anything happening? Any NON critical thinkers posting silly comments tonight?

I've been trying to. It's hard to keep up (for me anyway).

598 Stonemason  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:46:20pm

re: #582 Sharmuta

Nope...pettiness follows that particular crowd, it seems to be the only way to justify, or, explain away the unsavory connections that exist over there.

599 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:46:29pm

re: #568 Catttt

Interesting, I have attempted to do only one thing tonight - challenge people to use correct terms.

I have not used, nor advanced any personal beliefs while making this attempt.

Anything else that has been garnered from my posts would have to have been inserted by the reader.

600 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:46:32pm

re: #564 stevieray Huh, that's sorta strange - wonder how much publicity PJTV will be getting when the blogs no longer link to it or even mention it?

601 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:46:39pm

re: #583 Catttt

I have Dragon Speak, courtesy of Uncle Sam. But its picky and temperamental about what you are typing on. It doesn't like LGF for some reason. It wont work on this website, like many others. And of course, I have to speak out loud, which is hard if my wife is here or is watching TV. And frankly, I don't like speaking that much. Honestly, I really miss typing 50 words a minute. Voice software sucks.

602 Killer Tomato  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:46:39pm

re: #581 Walter L. Newton

Just in from the theatre (another small crowd tonight, I thought Obama was going to change this).

Anything happening? Any NON critical thinkers posting silly comments tonight?

I'm a non critical thinker, but I'm just sitting quietly in the corner. Sorry I can't be of assistance.

603 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:47:31pm

re: #547 Mich-again

You are helping prove my point that randomness is a cop out for I don't understand it. You are insulting the ones who disagree with you. Cognitive dissonance 101.

What's not to understand? Sometimes shit just happens. And sometimes this shit rather than that shit or the other shit just happens. Sometimes solar radiation hits this base pair, sometimes that one, and sometimes another one, by pure happenstance.

604 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:49:01pm

re: #601 logboy

I have Dragon Speak, courtesy of Uncle Sam. But its picky and temperamental about what you are typing on. It doesn't like LGF for some reason. It wont work on this website, like many others. And of course, I have to speak out loud, which is hard if my wife is here or is watching TV. And frankly, I don't like speaking that much. Honestly, I really miss typing 50 words a minute. Voice software sucks.

Yeah, it's still in its infancy, it's getting better over time however. All of my friends who use it say it's a pain in the ass to train.

605 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:49:02pm

re: #549 itellu3times

Sure, OK, fine, I don't want to argue over the metaphors. My own take is that we know too little, maybe some of that little is wrong, but the main problem is filling out the theory. After all, that's pretty much how it went for the Newtonian to relativistic physics theory - the old one turned out to be a special case of the newer one. Nothing wrong, just incomplete. Probably too much to ask in general, I agree. Epicycles did NOT turn out to be a special case of heliocentric and gravitational orbits.

Yeah, but epicycles were introduced in order to ground the religious dogma of geocentrism.

606 avanti  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:49:32pm

re: #595 Sharmuta

Who can understand the mental workings of her fan base? I noticed it earlier today, but when "boocat" started in on this thread, I called him/her on it and then went digging around for an explanation. That's all I can think of as a cause as to why this person dinged me down all day. Pathetic.

I wish that sort of thing would stop, I have one guy that will back ding every post I make because I'm to the left of him..

607 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:50:10pm

re: #584 logboy Well if your representative is a Republican he voted against it.
I thought the Senate voted for it today - not sure of that - but as of this morning on Fox and Friends, John McCain said he was voting against it.

608 BryanS  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:50:28pm

re: #547 Mich-again

You are helping prove my point that randomness is a cop out for I don't understand it. You are insulting the ones who disagree with you. Cognitive dissonance 101.

How is your point being proven about randomness being a cop out...and I don't think my comment was insulting, at least it wasn't meant to be. As I said, quantum affects have a randomness built into them. We have equations that can only predict probabilities that an electron for instance is in a certain physical state. However when we take a measurement multiple times, our results conform exactly to the probabilities predicted.

So, we have randomness, well understood.

609 phoenixgirl  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:50:36pm

re: #592 realwest

i'm not either real, i think those who know me figured that out. he dissed the lounge, i dinged him down. i like the lounge. i like his posts, i've dinged him up on serious stuff.....i dinged him lite heartedly down on something silly....whatever

610 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:51:16pm

re: #604 Thanos

Yeah, it's still in its infancy, it's getting better over time however. All of my friends who use it say it's a pain in the ass to train.

It is. It takes forever and uses a lot of memory. And if you reformat, you lose all of your training and have to start over.

611 NY Nana  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:01pm

re: #476 DesertSage

Sage?!?!?!?!? ;)

612 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:34pm

re: #606 avanti

Well- another person was being petty the other morning, so I returned it in kind. Not my best moment, to be sure, but this is ridiculous. I do my best to ding with reason.

613 avanti  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:50pm

re: #607 realwest

Well if your representative is a Republican he voted against it.
I thought the Senate voted for it today - not sure of that - but as of this morning on Fox and Friends, John McCain said he was voting against it.

Senate vote on the bill after revisions next week, then back to the house. Obama wants it on is desk by mid February.

614 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:53pm

Speaking of mind readers - here is my favorite mind reader. :D

Money, sex, money, sex - cat!

Youtube Video
615 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:52:55pm

What's going on?

The comment rating buttons keep disappearing on me.

Nana?

616 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:53:18pm

re: #607 realwest

Well if your representative is a Republican he voted against it.
I thought the Senate voted for it today - not sure of that - but as of this morning on Fox and Friends, John McCain said he was voting against it.

No, I dont think the senate voted yet. I think they said they are going to cut the fat.

My rep is a dem unfortunately, but a nice guy who supports the military and Iraq. I was his guest of honor to the State of the Union Address in 2007.

617 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:53:42pm

re: #615 Noam Sayin'

What's going on?

The comment rating buttons keep disappearing on me.

Nana?

Stop closing your eyes.

618 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:54:08pm

re: #459 ratherdashing

Christians are desperately trying to hold this country together.

Yes, they are.

619 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:54:58pm

re: #589 swamprat

Getting late I know.

Are viruses possibly the key to new species?

Viruses are one of them:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

620 NY Nana  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:55:10pm

re: #615 Noam Sayin'

Noam?!?!?!?!? ;)

621 avanti  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:55:11pm

re: #612 Sharmuta

Well- another person was being petty the other morning, so I returned it in kind. Not my best moment, to be sure, but this is ridiculous. I do my best to ding with reason.

I have not replied in kind, he's just doing his thing, and I don't want to spoil his fun.:)

622 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:55:30pm

re: #618 Ojoe

Christians are desperately trying to hold this country together.
Yes, they are.

And also helping in this effort is... ?

623 swamprat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:55:38pm

re: #589 swamprat

To elaborate; If viruses increase the actual dna, do they(or could they) increase the probabiliy of a mutation with more more DNA , i.e., a new specie, rather than a mere variation of the same life form.

624 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:55:44pm

re: #620 NY Nana

Noam?!?!?!?!? ;)

{Nana}

625 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:55:59pm

I'm out for the night. Thank you, all for the great time and fine memories. I'll be back tomorrow.

626 Killer Tomato  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:56:14pm

re: #622 Walter L. Newton

And also helping in this effort is... ?

duct tape!?

627 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:07pm

re: #599 slokat

Interesting, I have attempted to do only one thing tonight - challenge people to use correct terms.

I have not used, nor advanced any personal beliefs while making this attempt.

Anything else that has been garnered from my posts would have to have been inserted by the reader.

You have yet to demonstrate where I have used incorrect terms in this thread. because you can't. Because I haven't.

628 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:10pm

End program.re: #601 logboy

I have Dragon Speak, courtesy of Uncle Sam. But its picky and temperamental about what you are typing on. It doesn't like LGF for some reason. It wont work on this website, like many others. And of course, I have to speak out loud, which is hard if my wife is here or is watching TV. And frankly, I don't like speaking that much. Honestly, I really miss typing 50 words a minute. Voice software sucks.

Your wife and my cats. :D

Maybe Charles or Stinky can figure out why your software doesn't work here. Stinky?

I'm going to see if mine works in the comments area.

629 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:17pm

re: #590 Bobibutu Hi Bobibutu! Don't know what you mean about your ego, but I think Obama was gonna win anyway - too hard for most voters to connect him as closely as he really is with Billy Boy Ayers.
As for Billy Ayers, I'd love to meet him alone in an alley some dark night - or for that matter, at high noon. Just me and him. That would be sweet.
Nontheless, I really don't think the Republican's had any chance this year what with the economy dropping out from under us like a stone, the MSM in Obama's rear, er, hip pocket and all.
What Obama has already done thus far in his Presidency has helped Republicans out enormously for 2010 and if he keeps this shit up, he can forget about 2012, MSM, money and Billy Ayers notwithstanding.

630 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:31pm

re: #626 Killer Tomato

duct tape!?

Well, you were spot on about the non critical thinking skills.

:)

631 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:45pm

re: #626 Killer Tomato

duct tape!?

Could be. It has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together!

632 NY Nana  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:57:57pm

re: #624 Noam Sayin'

{Noam}

Has Sage left the building? A Sage sighting is getting as rare as hen's teeth!

633 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:58:03pm

re: #622 Walter L. Newton

And also helping in this effort is... ?

...the slowing in the effects of plate tectonics?

/

634 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:58:04pm

re: #610 logboy

It is. It takes forever and uses a lot of memory. And if you reformat, you lose all of your training and have to start over.

Eventually they will get around to using a separate processor for it, it's how IVR manufacturers deal with the cpu intensity. They have separate servers for voice reco only adjunct to most of the heavy iron IVR's nowadays.

635 swamprat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:59:05pm

re: #619 Salamantis
thanks. Saved. Will read tomorrow.

636 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:59:12pm

re: #621 avanti

I suppose- to be a target of a petty pamela fan is a badge of honor.

637 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 9:59:38pm

re: #632 NY Nana

{Noam}

Has Sage left the building? A Sage sighting is getting as rare as hen's teeth!

I think he's off doing his push-ups.

638 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:00:01pm

re: #390 gmsc

Yes Pi is useful, but, to me, profoundly unaesthetic, and as I appreciate the universe mainly through beauty, I dislike Pi.

And I think your statement that a straight line and a circle are from two different worlds is correct, and I bet the world of nature makes three in this case.

One of my kids has memorized Pi to about 40 decimal places. 400 places is pretty awesome, hats off to you.

Good Night All, again.

639 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:00:18pm

re: #622 Walter L. Newton

All good people.

640 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:00:19pm

re: #623 swamprat

To elaborate; If viruses increase the actual dna, do they(or could they) increase the probabiliy of a mutation with more more DNA , i.e., a new specie, rather than a mere variation of the same life form.

It is not outside the realm of possibility; viruses are likely not THE key, but they are likely ONE of them. To repeat my post of this link:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

641 avanti  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:00:29pm

re: #636 Sharmuta

At least you got a gal. :)

642 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:00:54pm

re: #616 logboy

No, I dont think the senate voted yet. I think they said they are going to cut the fat.

My rep is a dem unfortunately, but a nice guy who supports the military and Iraq. I was his guest of honor to the State of the Union Address in 2007.


From MM:

Gird your loins. We’ve only just begun.

***

Allahpundit’s got the lowdown.

Dems who voted NAY: Griffith, Peterson, Boyd, Bright, Kanjorski, Kratovil, Cooper, Taylor, Ellsworth, Minnick, and Shuler.

643 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:01:24pm

re: #620 NY Nana

Hey Babe - tell the grandpa we support you - I guess he really knows that. :)

644 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:01:39pm

Who exactly is Pamela? There is no wiki on her, all I can see is that she is a writer of some sort.

645 Killer Tomato  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:02:11pm

re: #630 Walter L. Newton

*sigh*
Fated to go through life as nothing more than eye candy.
/

646 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:02:50pm

re: #593 Noam Sayin'
Ah, well then, let's hope it doesn't turn into a gunfight!
I've missed you a lot out here - and Sage too. It's really good to see you again!
(memo to self: do not try tackling Noam, noogies are better and easier on the body - my body!).

647 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:03:02pm

re: #644 logboy

pamela geller of atlas shrugs. Links to her blog are not welcome here, so you'll have to look it up yourself, LB.

648 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:03:55pm

re: #638 Ojoe

Yes Pi is useful, but, to me, profoundly unaesthetic, and as I appreciate the universe mainly through beauty, I dislike Pi.

And I think your statement that a straight line and a circle are from two different worlds is correct, and I bet the world of nature makes three in this case.

One of my kids has memorized Pi to about 40 decimal places. 400 places is pretty awesome, hats off to you.

Good Night All, again.

Kudos to your kid - it's a start.

649 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:04:10pm

re: #631 gmsc

Could be. It has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together!

Arrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh! Not that heresy. It belittles everything that the force stands for.

/sorry, debated this with my geek buddies one time.

650 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:04:25pm

re: #642 Thanos

From MM:

Gird your loins. We’ve only just begun.

***

Allahpundit’s got the lowdown.

Dems who voted NAY: Griffith, Peterson, Boyd, Bright, Kanjorski, Kratovil, Cooper, Taylor, Ellsworth, Minnick, and Shuler.

I know who voted against, but I want to see if he voted at all. I'll feel better if he didnt vote, but if he did I'm going to start calling him and complaining. Sad. The last time I saw him he had me up on Capital Hill for lunch.

651 BryanS  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:04:37pm

re: #638 Ojoe

Yes Pi is useful, but, to me, profoundly unaesthetic, and as I appreciate the universe mainly through beauty, I dislike Pi.

And I think your statement that a straight line and a circle are from two different worlds is correct, and I bet the world of nature makes three in this case.

One of my kids has memorized Pi to about 40 decimal places. 400 places is pretty awesome, hats off to you.

Good Night All, again.

Just made me think of this ...

Pi, pi, I love pi !

652 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:04:52pm

re: #603 Salamantis

What's not to understand? Sometimes shit just happens. And sometimes this shit rather than that shit or the other shit just happens. Sometimes solar radiation hits this base pair, sometimes that one, and sometimes another one, by pure happenstance.

The remarkable thing is that he doesn't understand randomness. Put a chunk of uranium in his pocket for a while. Since the radioactive decay of a uranium atom is a random event, he wouldn't understand and would disagree with anyone that tried to explain radioactivity to him. Until his d**k fell off. The point is, it doesn't matter how much evidence or how many scientific facts you present them with, if they don't "understand" it or they "haven't seen" it, it obviously doesn't exist.

653 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:05:24pm

re: #649 BlueCanuck

Duct tape also must be paired with vise grips.

Good Night ...

654 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:05:38pm

re: #646 realwest

I've been lurking a little, But taking care of some home projects, too. Stripping some paint from my woodwork, straightening up the basement, etc. You know, $#!+ that needs taken care of.

655 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:06:31pm

re: #645 Killer Tomato

*sigh*
Fated to go through life as nothing more than eye candy.
/

I like tomato. The killer part, well, with a little therapy, I think we could overcome that.

656 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:06:41pm

re: #646 realwest

Ah, well then, let's hope it doesn't turn into a gunfight!
I've missed you a lot out here - and Sage too. It's really good to see you again!
(memo to self: do not try tackling Noam, noogies are better and easier on the body - my body!).

Gunfight? Someone brought a knife?

657 Killer Tomato  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:07:26pm

re: #654 Noam Sayin'

I've been lurking a little, But taking care of some home projects, too. Stripping some paint from my woodwork, straightening up the basement, etc. You know, $#!+ that needs taken care of.

Great - when you finish up, swing by here would ya? I got a honey do list a mile long and no frickin honey.

658 logboy  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:07:35pm

re: #654 Noam Sayin'

I've been lurking a little, But taking care of some home projects, too. Stripping some paint from my woodwork, straightening up the basement, etc. You know, $#!+ that needs taken care of.

Birds of a feather flock....

I need to take a break here pretty quick to go bring in some firewood.

659 NY Nana  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:07:47pm

re: #643 Bobibutu

tell the grandpa we support you

So where's my Zionist paycheck?!?!?

660 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:07:49pm

re: #656 Bobibutu

In my defense, it's a sharp knife.

661 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:08:05pm

re: #627 Salamantis

You have yet to demonstrate where I have used incorrect terms in this thread. because you can't. Because I haven't.

Good, enjoy!

[Link: www.sciam.com...]

662 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:08:18pm

re: #652 Unakite

By the way, who is the "he" that you are mentioning in your posts? This thread is too long for me to try to dig that out from the up thread comments.

663 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:08:49pm

I had some laundry duty, but am back. Whad I miss?

664 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:09:00pm

re: #598 Stonemason
Frankly there is NO WAY to justify or rationalize hangin' with fascists, much less all the other bullshit that they have gotten involved in with their White Nationalist/Neo-Nazi buddies over in Europe.

665 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:09:37pm

re: #664 realwest

Frankly there is NO WAY to justify or rationalize hangin' with fascists, much less all the other bullshit that they have gotten involved in with their White Nationalist/Neo-Nazi buddies over in Europe.

Nor the attacks on Charles.

666 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:09:55pm

re: #659 NY Nana

So where's my Zionist paycheck?!?!?

Damn! Oopsies - It's in the mail honey.

667 Stonemason  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:12:27pm

re: #664 realwest

Agreed Real, which is why the apologists get pissy and flippant, hoping we will ignore the other connections.

This is why I like lgf, connections are rarely missed.

668 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:12:30pm

Well, g'night, y'all.

669 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:12:41pm
670 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:12:42pm

re: #660 Noam Sayin'

In my defense, it's a sharp knife.

RGR - them scalpels are great tools.

671 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:13:14pm

re: #601 logboy

Dictation works here with my software, but it is slow until the software learns your pronunciation.

I am dictating this. it is Microsoft Speech Recognizer 8.0 for Windows.

OK, I am typing now. The above was all dictated with the speech thing that came with my Vista Home Premium 64 bit machine.

672 NY Nana  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:13:41pm

re: #637 Noam Sayin'

Uh, you owe me! Just realize how lucky you are that I was only drinking a cup of tea...my monitor badly needs a set of wiper blades from the spew! ROTFL!

673 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:13:52pm

I'm tired of whiners. Get your own blog.

674 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:14:17pm

re: #616 logboy Hey, he mighta voted against it - iirc some 14 House Dems voted against it.
Oh and y'all might want to check out other voice recognition systems - I had Dragon probably 15 years or so ago when I had epicondilitis (opposite side of Karpal tunnel) and I HATED it. Mostly because after I got it to work correctly, I would speak to my friends and family like this: Hi. How. Are. You. Doing. I'm. Just. Fine. LOL!
I know they've improved voice recognitions systems since then, but since IBM invented 'em, y'all might want to shop around for a different system.

675 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:14:32pm

re: #669 jamsler

Are you exasperated with your reality being challenged?

676 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:14:37pm
677 gmsc  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:14:39pm

re: #651 BryanS

Just made me think of this ...

Pi, pi, I love pi !

I have a couple of favorite Pi songs, too:

Youtube Video
Youtube Video
678 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:15:33pm

Hospital calls in exorcist after ghost spotted

Staff at Derby's new City General, soon to be renamed the Royal Hospital, which is built on the original City General site, claim a black-clad figure wearing a cloak is stalking the corridors and wards.

Senior manager Debbie Butler has now reportedly briefed the terrified employees via email, explaining that they have hired an exorcist to come and rid the £334 million hospital of their unwanted visitor.

She explained: "I'm not sure how many of you are aware that some members of staff have reported seeing a ghost.

"I'm taking it seriously as the last thing I want is staff feeling uneasy."

She added: "I don't want to scare anyone any more than necessary, but felt it was best I made you all aware of the situation and what we are doing about it.

"I've spoken to the Trust's chaplain and she is going to arrange for someone from the cathedral to exorcise the department."

One source told The Sun: "There have been dozens of sightings over recent weeks and people are scared witless.

"Several have seen a male figure cloaked from had to toe in black darting between rooms and through walls - especially in departments near the morgue.

"It's affected morale so much that bosses decided they had to act."

Call the Ghost Hunters!

679 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:15:58pm

re: #661 slokat

Good, enjoy!

[Link: www.sciam.com...]

Lisi's theory predicts the existence of 20 hitherto undiscovered elementary particles (including the Higgs Boson). Testing for whether these particles do or do not in fact exist will be one of the tasks set to the Large Hadron Collider. Testability is a hallmark of scientific assertions.

Your link leads to a story by a string theory sympathizer, quoting other string theory sympathizers. They don't wanna see their grant money dry up. After all, it's an easy gig; they don't have to test anything, just tweak at mathematical equations that may or may not refer to the real world (and whether they do or do not is beyond empirical proof).

Give us a year (or even less), and we'll know one way or another whether Lisi's theory is true. The same cannot be said of string theory.

680 Killer Tomato  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:16:01pm

re: #669 jamsler

Good luck with that.

681 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:16:29pm
682 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:16:34pm

re: #669 jamsler

It's real simple, jamsler. If you don't like what Charles posts, go to another blog, or start your own.

683 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:16:56pm

re: #662 Walter L. Newton

By the way, who is the "he" that you are mentioning in your posts? This thread is too long for me to try to dig that out from the up thread comments.

Mich-again posted in #547. I have a hard time keeping track.

684 Erik The Red  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:17:00pm

re: #669 jamsler

Charles must be asleep because your post has not been deleted. If you don't like ID threads don't read them or find another blog to read.

685 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:17:26pm
686 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:17:35pm

There was a burp in the farce!

687 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:18:14pm

re: #669 jamsler

Post downdinged. And reported. I don't think it will be around this time tomorrow.

688 Racer X  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:18:22pm

I'm so tired of, of, uh, ...... sorry, I lost my train of thought.

689 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:18:31pm

re: #687 Salamantis

Post downdinged. And reported. I don't think it will be around this time tomorrow.

Gone, him too.

690 NY Nana  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:18:31pm

re: #684 Erik The Red

Charles or Stinky are wide awake..he is gone...banned!

691 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:18:41pm

re: #681 Walter L. Newton

The reply function is our friend, Walter.

692 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:19:08pm

re: #687 Salamantis

Post downdinged. And reported. I don't think it will be around this time tomorrow.

He's history.

693 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:19:16pm

re: #691 Sharmuta

The reply function is our friend, Walter.

Sorry.

694 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:19:18pm

re: #690 NY Nana

Just deleted, Nana.

695 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:19:40pm

re: #678 NJDhockeyfan

So, is this a Jesuit Exorcist or a free-lance exorcist? Sounds like a good racket to me. Hire someone, or go yourself, dress-up like a ghost and then be there when the proprietor is looking for an exorcist.

Kinda like a Scooby-doo script.

696 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:19:48pm

I'm So Tired

Youtube Video
697 revobob  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:19:58pm

re: #604 Thanos

Yeah, it's still in its infancy, it's getting better over time however. All of my friends who use it say it's a pain in the ass to train.

Fella at work couple years ago bought some, painstakingly established control over the company database (legitimately) to use it for everything he had to do. Worked fine, until he got a cold- the change in his tone was enough to keep the system from recognizing ANYTHING. He went back to keyboarding after that!

698 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:20:24pm

And it's already gone.

699 NY Nana  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:20:26pm

re: #694 Sharmuta

Darn!

700 Racer X  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:20:26pm

Gone, Daddy, Gone

701 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:20:29pm

re: #674 realwest

IBM never said they were the best - just that their stuff did it.

702 Erik The Red  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:21:11pm

Stinky is awake and 699 got the stick

703 BryanS  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:21:48pm

re: #677 gmsc

I have a couple of favorite Pi songs, too:


[Video]

Wow. I guess I should expect no less from someone with a Pi avatar.

704 avanti  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:22:03pm

OK, guys and gals, time for the leftie to hit the rack, nite all.

705 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:22:23pm

re: #696 Killgore Trout

♥ it

706 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:23:03pm

re: #705 Sharmuta

also see: Fixing a Hole

Youtube Video
707 NY Nana  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:23:24pm

re: #666 Bobibutu

Damn! Oopsies - It's in the mail honey.

/But what if The One cuts a day of postal deliveries?

708 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:23:26pm

re: #672 NY Nana

Uh, you owe me! Just realize how lucky you are that I was only drinking a cup of tea...my monitor badly needs a set of wiper blades from the spew! ROTFL!

Tee hee.

Okay, I'm still hanging around. Someone pour me a bourbon.

Nana, you're a peach. I said as much in an earlier comment upthread. I've noticed that I can always get an up-ding from you on my spinoff links. Tonight, there was that lonely post on China's Bird's Nest Stadium; sat there for the longest time without so much as a click.

0 clicks
0 rating

Then all of a sudden there's a +1. I knew it was you before I even clicked on the icon.

709 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:23:37pm

re: #679 Salamantis

[Link: motls.blogspot.com...]

Just another sympathizer, don't bother to read this one...

Of course, the comments that this theory may be tested by future experiments are nothing else than journalists' confusions or a politically correct lie (because it is always OK to say an untrue thing about an "anti-establishment" outsider who is moreover a broke). The theory can't reproduce even basic aspects of the observations that have been made decades or centuries ago which is why any talk about even more ambitious tests is rationally unjustifiable.

710 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:24:11pm

re: #642 Thanos
Hey Thanos! I'm pretty damn sure 14, not 11 Dem Representatives voted against the pork Stimulus Bill. And I'd sure love to see all the Republican Senators stick together and drag maybe 6 or so Dems over to our side as well.
I just love the sound of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid getting smacked in the face early in the morning! Or anytime, for that matter!
And it's funny - McCain said the Repub's in the Senate would oppose the bill for two reasons: one was because it was nearly 80% pork and the other is that while President Obama likes to talk the bi-partisanship talk, Republicans were never consulted at all on the bill before it was presented for a vote. That kinda shit's gotta stop or this country is in waay worse shape than I thought it was.

711 freetoken  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:24:33pm

re: #669 jamsler

...than this tired old horse that's already been beaten to death.

Nah... This is a tired old horse.

Charles is wrestling with a fundamental clash of worldviews that directs the core of our (and others') society.

/the image could actually be of a hybrid.

712 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:25:36pm

re: #709 slokat

[Link: motls.blogspot.com...]

Just another sympathizer, don't bother to read this one...

Now you're resorting to hate sites; how pathetic!

713 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:25:37pm

re: #696 Killgore Trout

I'm So Tired

You're tired...

Youtube Video
714 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:25:46pm

re: #589 swamprat

Are viruses possibly the key to new species?

Oh, it's much worse than that, google for "jumping genes".

715 revobob  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:25:50pm

re: #638 Ojoe

Yes Pi is useful, but, to me, profoundly unaesthetic, and as I appreciate the universe mainly through beauty, I dislike Pi.

And I think your statement that a straight line and a circle are from two different worlds is correct, and I bet the world of nature makes three in this case.

One of my kids has memorized Pi to about 40 decimal places. 400 places is pretty awesome, hats off to you.

Good Night All, again.

My epiphany about calculus (about 5 years out of school!) was that it is a way of trying to reconcile the line with the curve by looking at increasingly smaller segments. Too little, too late, but my mind kept working on it even after there were no longer test grades to worry about...

716 Killer Tomato  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:28:28pm

Almost 0130 here on the east coast; lights out for me.
Night kids -

717 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:28:32pm

re: #714 itellu3times

Oh, it's much worse than that, google for "jumping genes".

Yep; transposons; Barbara McClintock was one bright lady. Another elaboration of evolutionary theory. For which she deservedly won the Nobel Prize.

718 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:28:34pm

re: #713 Noam Sayin'

Sure, when I finally remember to post a vid in the "new way," it turns out to be a non-video video.

719 BryanS  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:29:32pm

re: #713 Noam Sayin'

So smoov, that Al Green is.

720 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:29:33pm

re: #716 Killer Tomato

Almost 0130 here on the east coast; lights out for me.
Night kids -

Night, keep warm.

721 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:29:38pm

re: #707 NY Nana

/But what if The One cuts a day of postal deliveries?

Stand buy - services that we have paid for and continue to pay for that have deteriorated over the years (thanks to "The Swimmer") and others - ah don't get me going this late at night Nana.

722 Racer X  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:30:19pm

I'm so tired
- Lily

723 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:30:49pm

re: #714 itellu3times

Oh, it's much worse than that, google for "jumping genes".

regarding the usefulness of viruses ----- somewhere in the back of my brain is the idea that scientists have used viruses or experimented with viruses to introduce other molecules into the body for purposes of hmmmmm--cancer? passing thru the blood brain barrier? --to bypass the digestive system?

They piggy back the intended cure on into a virus and use the virus as a carrier--because there is no other way to introduce the "cure" into the body --

Someone help me here, it's late and my brain hurts.

724 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:31:33pm

Young geniuses just fucking around....
The Beatles and your bird can sing - Take 2

Youtube Video

I've been young but I've never been a genius. It sounds like fun.
/Namaste, Y'all

725 LeePro  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:31:43pm

re: #721 Bobibutu

Stand buy - services that we have paid for and continue to pay for that have deteriorated over the years (thanks to "The Swimmer") and others - ah don't get me going this late at night Nana.

"Stand buy..."

Freudian typo?

726 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:32:01pm

re: #715 revobob

My epiphany about calculus (about 5 years out of school!) was that it is a way of trying to reconcile the line with the curve by looking at increasingly smaller segments. Too little, too late, but my mind kept working on it even after there were no longer test grades to worry about...

I think there is a joke in there somewhere --something to do with LSD?

727 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:32:06pm

re: #723 ggt

regarding the usefulness of viruses ----- somewhere in the back of my brain is the idea that scientists have used viruses or experimented with viruses to introduce other molecules into the body for purposes of hmmmmm--cancer? passing thru the blood brain barrier? --to bypass the digestive system?

They piggy back the intended cure on into a virus and use the virus as a carrier--because there is no other way to introduce the "cure" into the body --

Someone help me here, it's late and my brain hurts.

Here, take two aspirins and call me in the morning.
/

728 NY Nana  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:32:06pm

re: #651 BryanS

Did you say 'pie'?

G'nite, all! Sweet dreams. Home invasion The kids and grandkids are coming here for dinner, and I want to get an actual full night's sleep!

/Like that's ever going to happen!

729 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:32:08pm

re: #719 BryanS

So smoov, that Al Green is.

Keep a CD on cue if you have a girl coming over. It still works.

730 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:33:00pm

re: #726 ggt

I think there is a joke in there somewhere --something to do with LSD?

Flashbacks (never heard of them).

731 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:33:01pm

re: #727 Walter L. Newton

Here, take two aspirins and call me in the morning.
/

Thanks, I've already done that, but your thoughts of concern help.

:0

732 BryanS  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:35:01pm

re: #728 NY Nana

Did you say 'pie'?

G'nite, all! Sweet dreams. Home invasion The kids and grandkids are coming here for dinner, and I want to get an actual full night's sleep!

/Like that's ever going to happen!

Oh my...they look Canadian ( a la south park ).

733 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:35:06pm

re: #730 Unakite

Flashbacks (never heard of them).

I think it'd be easier to reconcile the lines and curves if they were colored. Red line with Red curve, Blue line with Blue curve . . . .

734 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:35:20pm

re: #725 LeePro

"Stand buy..."

Freudian typo?

RGR - I humbly bow dwn.

735 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:35:25pm

re: #723 ggt

regarding the usefulness of viruses

You're referring to the Cyrus Virus?

736 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:35:27pm

re: #731 ggt

Thanks, I've already done that, but your thoughts of concern help.

:0

My brain is hurting, but that's because I'm up to about page 50 of Umberto Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum." I'm not sure what I think of it up to this point.

737 revobob  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:35:36pm

re: #726 ggtNo- my head is this messed up naturally- don't need no recreational pharaceuticals.

738 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:35:44pm

re: #559 slokat

Any of you read about this group? The comment about punctuated equilibrium reminded me of the link: [Link: www.gladwell.com...]

It's not quite on the topic, but it is an interesting long read.

It is interesting, but I'm still dubious you can get anything much out of a couple of days of brainstorming, compared to a couple of decades of hard work.

739 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:35:53pm

re: #735 Occasional Reader

You're referring to the Cyrus Virus?

could be . . .

740 slokat  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:36:14pm

re: #712 Salamantis

Now you're resorting to hate sites; how pathetic!

A czech physicist that points out the flaws in your favored theory is hate?

741 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:36:29pm

re: #723 ggt

regarding the usefulness of viruses ----- somewhere in the back of my brain is the idea that scientists have used viruses or experimented with viruses to introduce other molecules into the body for purposes of hmmmmm--cancer? passing thru the blood brain barrier? --to bypass the digestive system?

They piggy back the intended cure on into a virus and use the virus as a carrier--because there is no other way to introduce the "cure" into the body --

Someone help me here, it's late and my brain hurts.

Yes, all of the above.

742 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:36:40pm

re: #644 logboy Concise background - when she started her blog she said she admired Charles a lot. Then in 2007 there was a counter-jihad conference in Brussels - on day 2 of which Charles issued a caution to those "good guys" attending, not to allow certain fascists, neo-nazi's and White Nationalists to associate with the good guys in an attempt to make their fascistic credentials
seem worthy. Pamela - instead of speaking about it to Charles, went ballistic on her own blog, said Charles - CHARLES - had aligned himself with CAIR and worse. And the comments on her blog were the most vicious, personal attacks on Charles I've seen in a loong time - and at the time she moderated her blog, which means she had to approve the publication of those comments. Things went downhill really fast after that.

743 esch  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:37:23pm

re: #740 slokat

A czech physicist that points out the flaws in your favored theory is hate?

Some people just can't stand to be fact-czech'd.

/run

744 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:37:51pm

re: #736 Walter L. Newton

My brain is hurting, but that's because I'm up to about page 50 of Umberto Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum." I'm not sure what I think of it up to this point.

Oh my, that one was BIZARRE. All of his are. I think he was using the whole "self-fufilling prophecy" concept and took it a bit too far. But who knows what goes on in that author's head.

I listened to it on tape. The one that really made my head hurt was the Island of the Day Before. I still get a little blurry eyed thinking about it.

745 revobob  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:37:59pm

re: #733 ggt

I think it'd be easier to reconcile the lines and curves if they were colored. Red line with Red curve, Blue line with Blue curve . . . .


Color blind, so must use dashes, solids, other linear types for differentiation-

746 Catttt  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:38:08pm

Hit the road, Jack!

Youtube Video
747 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:38:13pm

re: #741 itellu3times

Yes, all of the above.

yes, "D" is usually the best choice.

748 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:38:42pm

re: #745 revobob

Color blind, so must use dashes, solids, other linear types for differentiation-

ah! well, hallucinigens wouldn't help then.

749 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:39:05pm

Good night.

750 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:39:27pm

re: #654 Noam Sayin' Oh, you mean you haven't been posting cause you had chores to do! Well hell, while you're at it, why not come on down and do some of our chores for us too - think of the THUNDEROUS welcome back you'll get here!

751 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:40:08pm

re: #747 ggt

Yes, all of the above

yes, "D" is usually the best choice.

You, my friend, have just neatly encapsulated evolution - it takes all the choices, in the hope that at least one is good.

752 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:40:40pm

re: #733 ggt

I think it'd be easier to reconcile the lines and curves if they were colored. Red line with Red curve, Blue line with Blue curve . . . .

uhm, I don't know...sometimes the reds and the blues wouldn't stay together...

753 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:40:43pm

Revo: The industrial versions of speech reco now cope with things like colds and dialects believe it or not, but it takes massive dictionaries and constant tunings. Eventually it will get to a state usable by all, perhaps replacing keyboards at some point in the future.

That said it's late and time for some sleeps

Youtube Video
754 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:41:10pm

re: #750 realwest

After the temps we've had up here, I'd welcome your weather about now.

Kinda thinkin' about a trip to Puerto Rico toward the end of March. I've had it with this sub-zero, global warming bullshit.

755 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:41:36pm

re: #668 Noam Sayin'
Gee Noam, hope it wasn't something I said!
Good night my friend - sleep well.

756 revobob  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:41:45pm

re: #748 ggt

ah! well, hallucinigens wouldn't help then.


Psychotropic drugs just give up in disgust trying to outdoor Obama's Bizarro World- it's the weirdest trip yet, lasts (probably) 4 years, and doesn't leave that sugary aftertaste...

757 LeePro  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:41:45pm

re: #734 Bobibutu

Nana and I up-dinged anyway!
;)

758 spirochete  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:42:26pm

Stopping by on the way to dreamleand. Lots of posts today. Did I miss anything?

759 revobob  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:42:45pm

re: #752 Unakite

uhm, I don't know...sometimes the reds and the blues wouldn't stay together...


They didn't want to be marooned!

760 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:42:54pm

re: #755 realwest

Psst. Look right above you...

BOO!

Okay, now I'm going to bed.

DMV in the morning.

761 Salamantis  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:43:29pm

re: #740 slokat

A czech physicist that points out the flaws in your favored theory is hate?

A string theory sympathizer who cant even get the total number of elementary particles in lisi's theory right (it's 248, not 240), and about whom Lisi himself had this to say:

Lubos' post is a hoot!

First he makes two statements that are blatantly wrong, and uses these to justify saying there's no physics in the paper. Then he attacks the physics in the paper. Heh.

His only rational attack is based on the Coleman-Mandula theorem, the abstract of which he kindly provides a link to, but evidently didn't read, since the first assumption of the C-M theorem is stated there in the abstract, and doesn't apply in the case at hand, as stated in the paper. The only other arguments he employs are ad hominem, based on my association with other non-string researchers who I am proud to call colleagues.

I couldn't have asked Lubos to write a more helpful critique, as it fails in its goal of tearing down the paper, while confirming just how different this E8 theory is from string theory.

762 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:43:57pm

re: #743 esch

Some people just can't stand to be fact-czech'd.

/run

Glad I put my beer down first (by the way, it's late over here).

763 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:44:24pm

re: #751 itellu3times

You, my friend, have just neatly encapsulated evolution - it takes all the choices, in the hope that at least one is good.

Hey, hey, I did something right today!

Thanks

764 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:45:03pm

re: #744 ggt

Oh my, that one was BIZARRE. All of his are. I think he was using the whole "self-fufilling prophecy" concept and took it a bit too far. But who knows what goes on in that author's head.

I listened to it on tape. The one that really made my head hurt was the Island of the Day Before. I still get a little blurry eyed thinking about it.

Ah, interesting that you made the comment about the "self-fulfilling prophecy" concept.

I am reading it because it is part of a suggested reading list for fans of the TV show LOST. Much of LOST contains a lot of intertextual (or intervisual) references, and there for, there are many books (and visual works) that lend extra color to the show.

It's funny, because "Foucault's Pendulum" as a intertextual source just became important at the beginning of this season two weeks ago, and already the plot line has taken a turn to a self-fulfilling prophecy concept.

And since I haven't read the whole book yet, I didn't realize that self-fulfilling prophecy was part of the book theme.

Ah, now I see the connection. The plot thickens.

765 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:45:28pm

re: #752 Unakite

uhm, I don't know...sometimes the reds and the blues wouldn't stay together...

True, and they might decide to change colors or turn into gumdrops and dance around a unicorn's head.

but, it'd be worth a try. don't you think?

/nah

766 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:46:13pm

re: #701 Bobibutu
Don't really know what IBM said, except that theirs was the FIRST voice regonition system. I hadda choose between them and Dragon and the IBM was just waaay too expensive.

767 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:46:32pm

re: #759 revobob

They didn't want to be marooned!

oh my! You are right, I wouldn't want them to get lost.

768 little boomer  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:47:04pm

qqwehrjqwehrqkjw-pardon.....

769 NY Nana  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:47:10pm

re: #721 Bobibutu

Oh, Bobibutu,

I rant about it so much that I am tired of listening to myself. I am also very worried for 2 of my kids, my 2 year old grandson, and my son in law..Mayor Booberg has a Draconian budget..so many police stations and fire houses in all the Boroughs may be shut down...one son lives in Queens, and daughter and her family are in Brooklyn. There will be cuts in the subway service, name it...and higher sales taxes, etc.

I know other places are also getting hit, and that CA is in dire trouble...and hardly anyone seems to put the blame where it belongs...right on Carter the Jew hater, and Clintoon's shoulders.

G'nite...

770 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:47:13pm

re: #759 revobob

They didn't want to be marooned!

I red that somewhere.

771 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:48:35pm

re: #764 Walter L. Newton

Well, Walter, you are definitely in for a ride. I get so confused and lost in his books, it sometimes takes a few months after I read one to sort it out, and even then I don't know if I grasped it.

Mostly, I just like the way he writes and leave it at that.

772 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:49:13pm

re: #739 ggt I thought that was Cyrus Vance?!?

773 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:49:18pm

re: #770 Unakite

I red that somewhere.

Then, they would be blue.

774 revobob  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:49:44pm

re: #770 Unakite

I red that somewhere.


Probably that old joke about two Navy ships, one carrying red paint, the other blue- they collided and all the sailors were marooned! (Groan)

775 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:49:51pm

re: #772 realwest

I thought that was Cyrus Vance?!?

REAL, I am confused enough as it is. You are NOT helping.

LOL

776 stevieray  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:49:59pm

re: #771 ggt

Well, Walter, you are definitely in for a ride. I get so confused and lost in his books, it sometimes takes a few months after I read one to sort it out, and even then I don't know if I grasped it.

Mostly, I just like the way he writes and leave it at that.

I'm waiting for the comic book.

777 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:50:36pm

re: #774 revobob

Probably that old joke about two Navy ships, one carrying red paint, the other blue- they collided and all the sailors were marooned! (Groan)

NO, that would be purple. Maroon has red, blue and (IIRC) a bit of green in it.

778 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:50:36pm

re: #765 ggt

True, and they might decide to change colors or turn into gumdrops and dance around a unicorn's head.

but, it'd be worth a try. don't you think?

/nah

Nah, but it's fun to think about.

779 revobob  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:51:18pm

re: #773 ggt

Then, they would be blue.


This is turning into purple prose- still, it's a change from our frequent topic of yellow journalism.

780 realwest  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:51:45pm

Well y'all it's late and I gotta get some sleep!
I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

781 revobob  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:52:51pm

re: #777 ggt

NO, that would be purple. Maroon has red, blue and (IIRC) a bit of green in it.

Did you just (re)fract check me?

782 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:53:00pm

Ah, no, i was wrong, Maroon has yellow in it.

And for those purists out there, Purple is technically Violet.

783 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:53:39pm

re: #778 Unakite

Nah, but it's fun to think about.

Yeah . . .

784 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:54:21pm

re: #781 revobob

Did you just (re)fract check me?

No, I did it in #782.

Now that we are really running the colors, Charles has posted a new thread.

785 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:54:32pm

re: #776 stevieray

I'm waiting for the comic book.

Are you serious? I ask, because I realize that "comics" have become a very different industry then the stuff I grew up with. There has been some very complex comics with art work that transcends the "Marvel" styled stuff.

786 revobob  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:54:55pm

re: #782 ggt

Ah, no, i was wrong, Maroon has yellow in it.

And for those purists out there, Purple is technically Violet.


Ah, well, what're a few Angstroms between friends?
Nite Real

787 LeePro  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:55:59pm

_  _
 0

'Nite, {Lizards}!

788 Unakite  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:56:22pm

re: #773 ggt

Then, they would be blue.

re: #774 revobob

Probably that old joke about two Navy ships, one carrying red paint, the other blue- they collided and all the sailors were marooned! (Groan)

OK, I give. That's all the color puns I can think of for now.

789 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:56:34pm

re: #786 revobob

Ah, well, what're a few Angstroms between friends?
Nite Real

True, and with that I have to go to bed. Perhaps I will dream of gumdrops and such.

Have a great morning all!

790 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:58:08pm

re: #766 realwest

Don't really know what IBM said, except that theirs was the FIRST voice regonition system. I hadda choose between them and Dragon and the IBM was just waaay too expensive.

IBM's was the first for home PC's anyway, you had to buy a clunky bigass card for your '286

791 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 10:59:17pm

re: #678 NJDhockeyfan

Hospital calls in exorcist after ghost spotted


Call the Ghost Hunters!

What's frightening? Has this possible ectoplasmic person done anything other than walk around?

792 stevieray  Fri, Jan 30, 2009 11:09:08pm

re: #785 Walter L. Newton

Are you serious? I ask, because I realize that "comics" have become a very different industry then the stuff I grew up with. There has been some very complex comics with art work that transcends the "Marvel" styled stuff.

Unfortunately, I was kidding. I'd like to read that book as well, but I've already got a three foot tall stack I'm trying to work through... a comic would be a pleasant change of pace.

793 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 1:27:14am
794 Ojoe  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 8:39:28am

re: #715 revobob

That is true...

A lot of this math stuff is a clue to the fact that the universe is "grainy" at a deep level.

795 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 8:53:59am

'jamsler' is blocked after that comment. Not only was he an insulting jerk, but he used a bigoted slur against Muslims that was caught by our filter.

796 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 9:21:27am

re: #144 avanti

Avanti - what the hell happened to your karma(again)? TFK up to his sad little tricks (again)?

797 Mr Secul  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 9:55:24am

re: #184 Salamantis

He's probably referring to this.

798 thebronze  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 11:00:03am

I haven't visit LGF in days, but I knew there'd be something about Creationism within the first few posts.

Charles didn't disappoint!

799 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 11:05:22am

re: #797 Mr Secul

He's probably referring to this.

Probably. But nowhere in the article is the order of evolutionary divergence disputed, and a reasonable scenario is offered to explain the results.

The comparative artifactual retroviral studies in humans and great apes are providing clues as to why HIV sickens humans, but not goprillas or chimps, while another virus sickens them, but not us. Apparently, we contain artifactual retroviral sequences from different, and mutually exclusive, phages, that provide immunization to different present-day retroviral infections (HIV is a retrovirus).

A long excerpt from [Link: www.newyorker.com...]
follows:

The Hutchinson Center encourages its research scientists to collaborate with colleagues in seemingly unrelated fields. Malik and Michael Emerman, a virologist at the center’s Human Biology and Basic Sciences Divisions, have been working together for four years. Malik’s principal interest is historical: why did evolutionary pressures shape our defenses against viruses, and how have they done it? Emerman studies the genetic composition and molecular pathology of the AIDS virus. “Together, we are trying to understand what constellation of viruses we are susceptible to and why,’’ Emerman told me. “We know at least that it is all a consequence of infections our ancestors had. So from there we want to try and derive a modern repertoire of antiviral genes.”

They focussed on chimpanzees, our closest relatives. Chimpanzees are easily infected by the AIDS virus, but it never makes them sick. That has remained one of the most frustrating mysteries of the epidemic. How did nearly identical genetic relatives become immune to a virus that attacks us with such vigor? The most dramatic difference between the chimp genome and ours is that chimps have roughly a hundred and thirty copies of a virus called Pan troglodytes endogenous retrovirus, which scientists refer to by the acronym PtERV (pronounced “pea-terv”). Gorillas have eighty copies. Humans have none.

“We can see that PtERV infected gorillas and chimps four million years ago,’’ Emerman told me. “But there was never any trace of its infecting humans.” It is possible that all infected humans died, but it is far more likely that we developed a way to repel the virus. Nobody knew why until Emerman, Malik, and Shari Kaiser, a graduate student in Emerman’s lab, presented evidence for a startling theory: the evolutionary process that protects us from PtERV may be the central reason we are vulnerable to H.I.V.

“We thought we must have a defense against this thing that they don’t have,’’ Malik told me, picking up the story the following day. Evolutionary biologists are not given to emotional outbursts—by definition, they take the long view. Malik is an engaging and voluble exception. When an antiviral protein excites him, he doesn’t hold back. “Where but in evolutionary history can you see a story like this, with PtERV and the chimps?’’ he asked, leaping up from his chair to begin sketching viral particles on a whiteboard. “It’s simply amazing.’’

to be continued...

800 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 11:06:21am

continued...

He launched into a description of the complex interactions between viruses and the proteins that we have developed to fight them. There is one particular gene, called TRIM5a, that in humans manufactures a protein that binds to and destroys PtERV. “Our version of this gene is highly effective against PtERV, which is why we don’t get infected,’’ he said. Every primate has some version, but it works differently in each species—customized to fit the varying evolutionary requirements of each. In the rhesus monkey, that single gene provides complete protection against H.I.V. infection. In humans, it does nothing of the kind. “When Michael and I started to get into this business, people had never thought much about the evolutionary meaning of that gene. But we wondered, Is TRIM5a just an anti-H.I.V. factor or is there something else going on here?”

Like the two human retroviruses that were reconstructed in France and in New York, PtERV has long been extinct; Emerman and Malik realized that they would have to assemble a new version if they hoped to learn how we became immune to it. They took scores of viral sequences and lined them up to see what they had in common. The answer was almost everything. When there were differences in the sequence, the researchers used a statistical model to predict the most likely original version. Then they put the virus back together. (Like Bieniasz, in New York, they did so in such a way that the virus could reproduce only once.) They modified the human TRIM5a protein so that it would function like the chimp version. After that, the protein no longer protected humans against the reconstructed copy of the virus. Next, they tested this modified version against H.I.V. Emerman placed it in a dish, first with H.I.V. and next with PtERV. What he found astonished him. No matter how many times he repeated the test, the results never varied. “In every case, the protein blocked either PtERV or H.I.V.,” Emerman told me. “But it never protected the cells from both viruses.”

There are several possible ways to interpret the data, but the one favored by the researchers is that because humans developed an effective defense against one virus, PtERV, at about the time we split off from the chimps, five million years ago, we were left vulnerable to a new one, H.I.V. “If we can develop a drug that acts the same way the monkey version of this protein acts—so that it recognizes H.I.V. and neutralizes it—we could have a very effective therapy,’’ Malik said. Both he and Emerman stressed that this day will not come soon. “First, we have to establish what part of TRIM5a is actually responsible for protecting monkeys against H.I.V.,” Malik said. “Then we would have to try and make it as a drug”—and one that the human body won’t reject. “The challenge is to find out how little you can change the human version and still make it effective against H.I.V. That is really what drives this whole story of re-creating that extinct virus and doing these experiments. Nobody is doing this as a gimmick. This virus could open doors that have been closed to us for millions of years. And if we can learn how to do that we have a chance to find a very effective response to one of the world’s most incredibly effective viruses.”

801 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 11:28:25am

re: #798 thebronze

I haven't visit LGF in days, but I knew there'd be something about Creationism within the first few posts.

Charles didn't disappoint!

And dozens of stories on other subjects. Interesting that you choose to focus on the creationism stories that are a small fraction of the total posts.

802 Kaboomboom  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 3:11:11pm

Eight hundred plus comments (yeah, I'm late to the party, but no matter).

I have a friendly suggestion for bona fide Christians (those who have gone through the actual spiritual transformation and, by the gift of grace, have entered into a covenant relationship with Jesus): avoid getting into strife and discord over things that are unprofitable.

Step back a minute and consider the big picture (including the ongoing fulfillment of prophecy and the reckonings to come).

Time is short and you've been given a good and satisfying destiny to fulfill. Don't get bogged down. Most blogosphere material has little spiritual value; it's usually wood, hay and stubble.

You probably believe that the Earth is neither young nor did God use evolution to create life. I agree. If this debate, or Charles' attempt to support a hybrid option (stated above) bothers you, don't let it. You know full well that God had Darwin pegged1800 years before his theory* was proffered, but you cannot expect non-believers to share your position. Read I Corinthians 2.

Paul clearly said: " But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Love Salamantis, and those like him, and pray that the Father would send the Holy Spirit to intrude and protrude into the affairs of their lives giving them: eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to understand the truth.

This Word of the Lord came to an American minister last October. With the never ending deluge of bad news from around the world, it's worth noting here:

Don't pay attention to or make any plans based on what the media says or what [politicians] say. Stand on My Word in John 16. Pay attention to Me. I [the Holy Spirit] will obey verses 13-15. I will show you things to come. I will lead you through troubled times. I already have THE plan for you, and it's very good. Follow it. It will not only get you through, it will place you in a very high place--a rich place--a strong place of victory.

You will have to discipline yourself and be diligent to listen to Me. All the other voices will have a plan, a word, an idea for your future and security. Don't listen to Babylon's system. It has fallen apart. My system is stronger than ever. My kingdom is flourishing, and THE BLESSING is the place to be.

Keep your eyes on My Word. Listen to it. It will guide you and I will perform it. Love Me. Love My people as I have loved you. Walk in it. Love never fails, and neither does My plan.

Be very cautious to stay completely clean from covetousness. First Timothy 6:10 must live in the forefront of your thinking. If you will do these things, and continue therein, you will come into your wealthy place. A place lifted up. A place in Me already planned and prepared for you now. Here. No Heaven--not yet. But it will seem like heaven right in the midst of all the trouble, and you'll be able to reach out to untold numbers of suffering people with the Good News of the gospel.

I am coming very soon. Sooner than you think. Keep your eyes on Me and you'll get the job done.

Let's major on the majors.


*theory--a noun
-a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
- contemplation or speculation.
- guess or conjecture.

803 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 4:22:10pm
804 Jim Nagle  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 4:44:23pm

I wonder how belief in the evolutionary model of origins came to be a kind of sine qua non of intellectual soundness. I for one am perfectly content with the Genesis account, taken literally. I, as millions of others, understand Genesis to be a narrative written by Moses under the plenary inspiration of God, the only One Who claims to have been there when it happened. I believe God told Moses what He did, and that Moses recorded it faithfully.

Real science involves repetition and observation. First things are not replicable and observable, which is one reason why evolution will never advance beyond theory. Since origins are not provable, what is the harm in public schools' allowing that it is possible that there was a divine origin, especially in districts where the majority of parents believe the Genesis account of creation?

As to those pastors referenced in the piece: I fear they have a start-and-stop problem with the Scriptures. That is, they find themselves picking and choosing which segments of the Bible are inspired and which are not. If a man rejects Genesis, how does he then preach other passages with the conviction born of belief in inspiration? Unless he doesn't believe the Bible is really inspired at all. In which case it is hard to accept him as a Christian pastor, seeing that the office of pastor is announced and its duties described in the same book he has rejected.

805 RexMundi  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:04:35pm
re: #802 Kaboomboom

*theory--a noun
-a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
- contemplation or speculation.
- guess or conjecture.

You do realize that gravity, like evolution, is "only a theory", too? Feel free to test it! See if you can defy that "guess" or "conjecture" that your unsupported body would fall at 32ft per second per second or not by jumping out of a balcony.

I wonder what excuse you would use when your faith in God does not allow you to float?

806 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:04:42pm

re: #804 Jim Nagle

You obviously don't know what "theory" means in scientific terms.

The problem with allowing creationism to be taught in public schools is 1) it violates the Constitution, 2) opens the door to demands for equal time by other religions such as islam and 3) it isn't science and doesn't belong in a science classroom.

807 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:07:25pm

re: #804 Jim Nagle

Since origins are not provable, what is the harm in public schools' allowing that it is possible that there was a divine origin, especially in districts where the majority of parents believe the Genesis account of creation?

The harm is: it's a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. This never seems to matter to Biblical literalists, who blithely advocate throwing away one of the most important protections given to American citizens.

808 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:11:11pm

Looks like the fanatics are here.

809 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:14:22pm

re: #804 Jim Nagle

First things are not replicable and observable

And this is a very silly thing to say.

810 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:19:57pm

And another meltdown!

811 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:23:31pm

It's interesting that posts about attempts to reconcile (or at least promote coexistence between) science and religion seem to draw a special ire from creationists. They're really attached to their ignorance and marginalization, so much so that the mere suggestion that anyone can believe in God and also accept the science of evolution absolutely enrages them.

812 Jim Nagle  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:27:18pm

re: #806 Sharmuta

OK, Sharmuta, I would love to know how it would violate the Constitution. Are you thinking about the establishment clause of the first amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."? What law would Congress be making in this case?

Dr. Benjamin Rush, a leading founding father who was known as "America's doctor", was in the vanguard of the push for free public education, believing, as others did, that the most important function of education was to teach children to read their Bibles. His long written treatise as to why the Bible should be the main text in the public schools can be googled and read today. The Founders would be astounded at the marginalization of the Bible in public education today.

As to the definition of "theory": no matter how you define "theory", or I define "plenary" or "inerrant" inspiration, the fact remains, and always will remain, that origins cannot be proven. Darwinians can't prove evolution, and Bible believers can't prove creation. What we each have is a belief system. And in the ongoing battle of the Chucks, I'm going with Heston (as Moses) over Darwin.

813 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:29:23pm

re: #812 Jim Nagle

re: #806 Sharmuta

OK, Sharmuta, I would love to know how it would violate the Constitution.

Ask the Supreme Court. They've ruled against you guys every single time you try to sneak your creationist nonsense into schools, for more than 40 years.

814 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:31:27pm

re: #812 Jim Nagle

You're aware that the States are just as beholden to the First Amendment and the protection of the rights of the citizens as Congress, are you not? The states and local municipalities cannot override the Constitution. Therefore the states or local governments providing tax payer money to support religious teaching is just as much in violation of the First Amendment as Congress would be.

815 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:36:42pm

re: #814 Sharmuta

And if you doubt what I say is true, Jim, it's called the 14th Amendment. States cannot deny citizens their Constitutional rights.

816 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:38:08pm

re: #802 Kaboomboom

Eight hundred plus comments (yeah, I'm late to the party, but no matter).

I have a friendly suggestion for bona fide Christians (those who have gone through the actual spiritual transformation and, by the gift of grace, have entered into a covenant relationship with Jesus): avoid getting into strife and discord over things that are unprofitable.

Step back a minute and consider the big picture (including the ongoing fulfillment of prophecy and the reckonings to come).

Time is short and you've been given a good and satisfying destiny to fulfill. Don't get bogged down. Most blogosphere material has little spiritual value; it's usually wood, hay and stubble.

You probably believe that the Earth is neither young nor did God use evolution to create life. I agree. If this debate, or Charles' attempt to support a hybrid option (stated above) bothers you, don't let it. You know full well that God had Darwin pegged1800 years before his theory* was proffered, but you cannot expect non-believers to share your position. Read I Corinthians 2.

Paul clearly said: " But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Love Salamantis, and those like him, and pray that the Father would send the Holy Spirit to intrude and protrude into the affairs of their lives giving them: eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to understand the truth.

This Word of the Lord came to an American minister last October. With the never ending deluge of bad news from around the world, it's worth noting here:

Let's major on the majors.

*theory--a noun
-a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
- contemplation or speculation.
- guess or conjecture.

I think that perhaps I will pray to the Goddess for you, too, that you come to realize that, if you do not insist upon an ancient sheepherder's fundamentalist literalist reading of the current translations of the Bible, that it is not necessary for you to deny demopnstrable empirical reality in order to embrace your faith.

And here is the scientific definition of theory (according to the US National Academy of Sciences), which is far removed from its meaning in common parlance, and vastly stronger:

Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

817 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:51:31pm

re: #802 Kaboomboom

Looks like we have a creationist and an end-timer rolled into one here.

818 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:51:39pm

re: #804 Jim Nagle

I wonder how belief in the evolutionary model of origins came to be a kind of sine qua non of intellectual soundness. I for one am perfectly content with the Genesis account, taken literally. I, as millions of others, understand Genesis to be a narrative written by Moses under the plenary inspiration of God, the only One Who claims to have been there when it happened. I believe God told Moses what He did, and that Moses recorded it faithfully.

Real science involves repetition and observation. First things are not replicable and observable, which is one reason why evolution will never advance beyond theory. Since origins are not provable, what is the harm in public schools' allowing that it is possible that there was a divine origin, especially in districts where the majority of parents believe the Genesis account of creation?

As to those pastors referenced in the piece: I fear they have a start-and-stop problem with the Scriptures. That is, they find themselves picking and choosing which segments of the Bible are inspired and which are not. If a man rejects Genesis, how does he then preach other passages with the conviction born of belief in inspiration? Unless he doesn't believe the Bible is really inspired at all. In which case it is hard to accept him as a Christian pastor, seeing that the office of pastor is announced and its duties described in the same book he has rejected.

So in spite of the red shift coefficient of the echo radiation left over from the Big bang, that allows us to date the Universe's beginnings as 13.73 ± 0.1 billion years ago, and the light from distant stars that has taken billions of years to reach us, and despite dozens of different mutually verifying forms of radiometric dating, that have shown the earth to be 4.6 billion years old and the first appearance of terrestrial life to have been at least 3 1/2 billion years ago, and regardless of the comparative study of sequenced genomes of humans and other lifeforms, both geneally and focusing upon artifactual retroviral DNA sequences, that conclusively demonstrate beyond rational statistical doubt that humans and great apes evolutionarily diverged from common hominid ancestors around 20 million years ago, and that all terrestrial life speciated from a small population of ancient shared progenitors, you continue to believe that the universe, the earth, and all life on it were created in the span of six days a few thousand years ago, and that in this six day span, the many millions of terrestrial species, both existent and extinct, were created separately and as is? You don't accept the fact that long ago events leave tangible empirical evidence such as I have pointed to behind?

I don't wanna be on the road around you, because anyone who can refuse to accept such massive empirical evidence would be quite likely to accept that stoplights and street signs meant what they said. You would have been a perfect OJ juror.

819 Jim Nagle  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:54:44pm

Charles,

I thought we Bible-thumpers were supposed to be the angry, uptight ones. Come on, man, you're stealing my thunder when you refer to creationist "nonsense."

As far as the states and the First Amendment are concerned: when the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution, several of the colonies had established religions (e.g., Virginia had the taxpayer-supported Anglican church), and maintained those establishments after ratification, a fact that apparently did not trouble anyone, including John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court (also president of the American Bible Society). The only intent of the establishment clause was avoidance of the experience in England, where dissenters from the established church were persecuted. The Framers wanted to ensure that no specific denomination would ever be established over the nation.

It wasn't until the 1940's, specifically the Everson decision, that the Supremes got into the mischief of marginalizing religion in American public llife.

The hard evolution line in public schools leads to a real dilemma for believing parents, because the effect of the evolutional model is not limited to the physical sciences: it has a profound effect on worldview. Whether one believes he is an accident of nature or the unique creation of a loving, involved God cannot help but color everything. Some of you guys are pretty hard core about all this, but I think you can still appreciate the dilemma. One answer, of course, would be private religious schools, but not everyone can afford that. There is home schooling, but working parents have trouble making that work. In my view, there is an excellent case here for school vouchers.

820 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:56:42pm

re: #817 Charles

Looks like we have a creationist and an end-timer rolled into one here.

Revelation Christians are always the craziest.

Trying to make sense of biology in the absence of evolutionary theory is like trying to make sense of current events in the absence of history. But there people don't WANT to make sense of it, or of anything having to do with empirical science, or to even try. They just believe that, if it's part of the natural world, then God Did It, whatever it is, and as such, it must be forever beyond human understanding.

821 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 5:57:54pm

re: #819 Jim Nagle

The states do not have the right to trump the Constitution in denying any citizen their rights guaranteed to them by the Constitution.

822 Basho  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:01:18pm

re: #819 Jim Nagle

The hard evolution line in public schools leads to a real dilemma for believing parents, because the effect of the evolutional model is not limited to the physical sciences: it has a profound effect on worldview. Whether one believes he is an accident of nature or the unique creation of a loving, involved God cannot help but color everything. Some of you guys are pretty hard core about all this, but I think you can still appreciate the dilemma.

I appreciate the dilemma; Superstitious beliefs are undermined by reality. Too bad.

823 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:04:45pm

re: #819 Jim Nagle

Furthermore, the Constitution was designed to protect the minority form the tyranny of the majority. Even if a school district were to be a majority of Biblical literalists (as your example gave), it doesn't give them the right to push their beliefs off on the children of other people via a public school science classroom.

As for the children of said Biblical literalists- nothing is preventing them from teaching their children the tenants of their faith outside of school. All you're doing is infringing on the rights of the parents who wish to teach their faith, which may differ from yours. What right do you think you have to do this? Because the answer is none.

824 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:07:49pm

re: #819 Jim Nagle

I thought we Bible-thumpers were supposed to be the angry, uptight ones. Come on, man, you're stealing my thunder when you refer to creationist "nonsense."

Nonsense is exactly what it is. If I get angry you'll know.

The hard evolution line in public schools leads to a real dilemma for believing parents, because the effect of the evolutional model is not limited to the physical sciences: it has a profound effect on worldview.

Here we go again. Darwin leads to Hitler, atheism, and the heartbreak of psoriasis, and we need to ignore most of modern science to prevent this horror.

825 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:08:17pm

re: #819 Jim Nagle

Charles,

I thought we Bible-thumpers were supposed to be the angry, uptight ones. Come on, man, you're stealing my thunder when you refer to creationist "nonsense."

As far as the states and the First Amendment are concerned: when the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution, several of the colonies had established religions (e.g., Virginia had the taxpayer-supported Anglican church), and maintained those establishments after ratification, a fact that apparently did not trouble anyone, including John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court (also president of the American Bible Society). The only intent of the establishment clause was avoidance of the experience in England, where dissenters from the established church were persecuted. The Framers wanted to ensure that no specific denomination would ever be established over the nation.

It wasn't until the 1940's, specifically the Everson decision, that the Supremes got into the mischief of marginalizing religion in American public llife.

Thomas Jefferson, one of the chief Founders and Framers, let it be known what the First Amendment meant in his 1802 Letter to the Danbury Baptists:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

[Link: www.usconstitution.net...]

The hard evolution line in public schools leads to a real dilemma for believing parents, because the effect of the evolutional model is not limited to the physical sciences: it has a profound effect on worldview. Whether one believes he is an accident of nature or the unique creation of a loving, involved God cannot help but color everything. Some of you guys are pretty hard core about all this, but I think you can still appreciate the dilemma. One answer, of course, would be private religious schools, but not everyone can afford that. There is home schooling, but working parents have trouble making that work. In my view, there is an excellent case here for school vouchers.

Methodological naturalism (confining empirical science to physical, obsevable phenomena) does not entail metaphysical atheism. People without children pay property taxes; US citizens have a shared obligation to provide free education to our young, and their education is a national scurity and economic imperative. Science, and ONLY science, should be taught in public high school science classes. They should not be, and will not be, morphed into madrassas by means of which theocrat wannabees can forcibly shoehorn their pet sectarian religious dogmas into the naive and credulous minds of other peoples' children. It's unconstitutional, it damages the future science employment prospects of the children, and it's morally wrong.

826 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:13:22pm

re: #824 Charles

and the heartbreak of psoriasis

LOL!

What I find interesting is the lack of confidence the right-wing has in the public school system claiming leftist indoctrination, yet suddenly they feel the same people indoctrinating their kids with socialism (and darwinism) should teach the children the tenants of their faith.

827 Jim Nagle  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:15:37pm

Whew, you monkey descendants are pretty hard core. Salamantis- I'd make a "perfect OJ juror"? Man, isn't that a little ad hominem for such a logic-driven scientist?

For a bunch of folks who purport to be clinical observers of established fact, you sure invest a lot of emotion in this thing. It must be an atavism of some kind, something that hasn't evolved out of the human condition.

Good night, all. My first night on this blog has been an eye-opener. I'm going to pray for you all now. God bless.

828 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:15:50pm

One more comment on this line:

The hard evolution line in public schools leads to a real dilemma for believing parents...

No, it doesn't. Pope Benedict has stated very clearly that the Catholic Church has no problem with the scientific theory of evolution. Only the most fundamental of fundamentalists still cling to the self-defeating, ignorant world view known as creationism.

829 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:16:12pm

There's the monkey line!

I was waiting for it.

830 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:17:04pm

And the "I'll pray for you" line too. It's a two-fer.

831 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:18:04pm

re: #812 Jim Nagle

re: #806 Sharmuta
As to the definition of "theory": no matter how you define "theory", or I define "plenary" or "inerrant" inspiration, the fact remains, and always will remain, that origins cannot be proven. Darwinians can't prove evolution, and Bible believers can't prove creation. What we each have is a belief system. And in the ongoing battle of the Chucks, I'm going with Heston (as Moses) over Darwin.

Umm...we can look at Richard Lenski's e coli and see evolution happening before our eyes. If it didn't exist, one flu shot in a lifetime would be enough. And artifactual retroviral DNA comparisons conclusively demonstrate that whatever else our origins may be, they are common and shared, and all terrestrial species evolutionarliy diverged from a small set of common ancestors. The evidence for this can be found in every single cell of every living thing, including you. If you believe that earth's species were separately created, you carry the empirical evidence for the utter disproof of this belief around in every cell of your own body.

832 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:19:11pm

re: #827 Jim Nagle

For a bunch of folks who purport to be clinical observers of established fact, you sure invest a lot of emotion in this thing.

You're right. I'm emotionally invested in the upholding of the Constitution because I love my country and my rights.

I'm going to pray for you all now.

How condescending of you.

833 Jim Nagle  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:19:29pm

Hey, Sharmuta- Who are the "tenants of their faith"? Do they rent space there? LOL.

'Night.

834 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:20:39pm

re: #833 Jim Nagle

Hey, Sharmuta- Who are the "tenants of their faith"? Do they rent space there? LOL.

'Night.

Aren't you supposed to be praying for us?

835 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:20:59pm

re: #827 Jim Nagle

Good night, all. My first night on this blog has been an eye-opener. I'm going to pray for you all now. God bless.

If your prayer is that we somehow achieve your level of stupidity, don't bother.

836 jaunte  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:21:38pm

I don't find that "I'll be praying for you" very sincere.

837 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:22:51pm

re: #836 jaunte

I don't find that "I'll be praying for you" very sincere.

That's because it's not sincere. It's a classical passive aggressive response.

838 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:23:16pm

re: #833 Jim Nagle

Oh crap. You caught me in a typo. If that's the best response you have to the myriad of facts that has been thrown at you, it's no wonder the creationists keep getting their asses handed to them in the courts and the laboratories of this nation.

839 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:24:47pm

A creationist caught me in a typo. Evolution must therefore be false. /////

840 jaunte  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:26:14pm

re: #837 Charles

The people that use that tactic don't seem to recognize that offering that thought in an insincere way degrades the act of prayer.

841 Jim Nagle  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:26:45pm

Charles, you're right. I'll get right on it.

Jaunte- I'm working on it.

842 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:26:56pm

re: #827 Jim Nagle

Whew, you monkey descendants are pretty hard core. Salamantis- I'd make a "perfect OJ juror"? Man, isn't that a little ad hominem for such a logic-driven scientist?

The truth, by definition, can never be an insult; it is an accurate description. The OJ jury rejected DNA evidence, apparently, so do you. If the glove fits, wear it.

For a bunch of folks who purport to be clinical observers of established fact, you sure invest a lot of emotion in this thing. It must be an atavism of some kind, something that hasn't evolved out of the human condition.

It's a matter of not wanting to see America's children being brainwashed in public high school science class with that which is empirically demonstrable as untrue. The pseudoeducational and religiously dogmatic abuse of other childrens' intellects in public high school science class is a moving topic.

Good night, all. My first night on this blog has been an eye-opener. I'm going to pray for you all now. God bless.

If you are praying for us to turn our backs on empirical reality and become religious clones of yourself, you have about as much chance of your prayers being answered as do the Al Qaedan jihadis with whom you seemingly share scriptural literalist young-earth creationist beliefs.

843 Jim Nagle  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:28:55pm

Sharmuta- One thing I will pray is that your *ss doesn't get handed to you in the judgment.

844 jaunte  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:30:28pm

re: #843 Jim Nagle

Well, you're not 'working on it' yet.

845 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:30:32pm

re: #843 Jim Nagle

How Christian of you.

846 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:31:48pm

re: #827 Jim Nagle

btw; 'monkey descendents' is empirically incorrect; rather, they and we share common ancestors, so it would be more correct to term us (and you) and monkeys to be cousin species. Our brother species would be great apes (there is a difference between apes and monkeys, but you probably wouldn't know something like that). The ancestors we share with monkeys are more chronologically distant than the ancestors we share with apes.

847 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:31:57pm

re: #843 Jim Nagle

Sharmuta- One thing I will pray is that your *ss doesn't get handed to you in the judgment.

Your malevolence is palpable.

848 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:33:36pm

re: #843 Jim Nagle

Sharmuta- One thing I will pray is that your *ss doesn't get handed to you in the judgment.

There it is; the threat of everlasting hellfire and brimstone. Just like Fred Phelps would say.

849 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:39:07pm

Scratch a creationist and the hatred comes right out atcha.

850 Jim Nagle  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:41:50pm

Jimmah- Methinks the perceived palpability of my malevolence is a wee bit of projection on your part.

All this vituperation coming at me is distracting me from my prayer. I've got to log off and resist the temptation to peek at the next insult.

851 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:46:48pm

re: #850 Jim Nagle

Jimmah- Methinks the perceived palpability of my malevolence is a wee bit of projection on your part.

All this vituperation coming at me is distracting me from my prayer. I've got to log off and resist the temptation to peek at the next insult.

It's the same old ultimatum offered up by every revealed religion:

Believe like I do or head to Hell.

The selfsame Hell that you also condemn more than a billion Roman Catholics and many other Christians to, since they accept evolutionary theory.

Hubris, thy name is Jim Nagle.

852 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:51:36pm

re: #850 Jim Nagle

If what you've displayed to us this evening is your idea of what a good Christian should be, I would really rather you not pray for me at all.

853 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:51:48pm

I'm blocking 'Jim Nagle' now, because he's supposed to be praying for us to save us from hellfire, and doesn't need the distraction of posting at LGF.

854 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:57:05pm

I can almost feel the praying now.

855 jaunte  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:58:21pm

Must be that muffled thumping sound.

856 Kaboomboom  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:58:38pm

re: #817 Charles

You say that like it's a bad thing. :)

Believing the book of Revelation isn't unusual among Christians. If one believes the rest of the Bible why would they not believe the last part?


BTW, if evolution is the force that advanced life on Earth to where it is, where are all the mutations?

Logically, every species should be continually evolving to the next highest level as part this 24/7 natural force. All of the intermediate stages of transition should be easily observed. Mutations though are considered odd.

If people routinely observed a reptile on its way to being a bird, or a gorilla on its way to being a man then we would not be having this discussion....

857 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 6:59:07pm

re: #851 Salamantis

He'd love Islam/The Quran. It's creationist porn:

22:19 These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads,

22:20 Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted;

22:21 And for them are hooked rods of iron.

22:22 Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.

That's what's promised for us haughty rationalists who sin by not taking every word of scripture literally. I wonder what the conversion rate to Islam is for creationist bible thumpers?

858 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 7:00:37pm

They're working in shifts tonight.

859 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 7:01:58pm

re: #856 Kaboomboom

BTW, if evolution is the force that advanced life on Earth to where it is, where are all the mutations?

Why- they're in your very DNA.

All of the intermediate stages of transition should be easily observed.

And quite a large number of them are, but not every species managed to die in such a way or place as to allow fossilization of their body.


If people routinely observed a reptile on its way to being a bird, or a gorilla on its way to being a man then we would not be having this discussion....

This comments pretty much shows you don't understand even the bare minimum of evolution.

860 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 7:20:10pm

re: #856 Kaboomboom

You say that like it's a bad thing. :)

Believing the book of Revelation isn't unusual among Christians. If one believes the rest of the Bible why would they not believe the last part?

I don't think you really understand what the Book of Revelation is. Lemme clue you in...

There was a seditious revolt against Rome afoot in Israel at the time, led by the Zealots. The Book of Revelation was written by Zealots or Zealot sympathizers as a revolutionary tract against the Roman Empire, but, to avoid dire repercussions, it was written in a religious codespeak that would be transparent to the Jews of that era, but opaque to the Romans. For instance, remember the beast with seven heads and ten horns? The seven heads were the seven hills of Rome, and the ten horns were the ten legions of the Praetorian Guard. It was all about the imminent liberation of Israel from Roman rule, an eventuality that proved to be not so imminent, as a glance at Masada will tell you.

BTW, if evolution is the force that advanced life on Earth to where it is, where are all the mutations?

The hosts containing the genetic mutations that were successful in their environmental niches multiplied and passed their genes into the common pool, where they became characteristics; those that were not successful were environmentally selected against, and their hosts died before they could reproduce.

Logically, every species should be continually evolving to the next highest level as part this 24/7 natural force. All of the intermediate stages of transition should be easily observed. Mutations though are considered odd.

Unless we fail to reproduce, we are transitional forms. If we do not reproduce, we are evolutionary dead ends.

If people routinely observed a reptile on its way to being a bird, or a gorilla on its way to being a man then we would not be having this discussion....

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It typically takes many thousands of generations for speciation to occur, so if you're looking for it in animals whose generational cycles are measured in anything longer than hours, you'd better have discovered the Fountain of Youth that Ponce de Leon missed. But the evolution of Lenski's e. coli bacteria can be reproduced at will, and the evidence of common ancestry, and thus evolution and speciation, is to be found in the DNA residing within every cell of every organism on earth, including you, specifically the shared spliced-in artifactual retroviral sequences

861 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 7:29:38pm

re: #856 Kaboomboom

Believing the book of Revelation isn't unusual among Christians.

Revelations : Jesus will return to earth with a sword sticking out of his mouth and raise up a scorpion army (among many other interesting monsters) to torture the unbelievers and generally kick ass. Yeah - totally believable!

862 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 7:33:46pm

re: #860 Salamantis

The Book of Revelation was written by Zealots or Zealot sympathizers as a revolutionary tract against the Roman Empire, but, to avoid dire repercussions, it was written in a religious codespeak that would be transparent to the Jews of that era, but opaque to the Romans.

I thought 'Revelations' was essentially an account of a hallucination by John the Apostle while imprisoned on the island of Patmos?

863 Kaboomboom  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 7:34:25pm

re: #860 Salamantis

Well, we'll know soon enough. :)

Goodnight all.

864 Salamantis  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 7:45:19pm

re: #862 Jimmah

I thought 'Revelations' was essentially an account of a hallucination by John the Apostle while imprisoned on the island of Patmos?

It wasn't a hallucination; it was carefully crafted religious codespeak. John of Patmos had Zealot sympathies, and I'm certain he was quite upset at being exiled and imprisoned on the island of Patmos by Emperor Domitian, and by the recent crushing of the revolt at Masada.

865 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 8:29:49pm

re: #863 Kaboomboom

Well, we'll know soon enough. :)

Goodnight all.

Repent, sinners! The end is near!

866 grenma  Sat, Jan 31, 2009 10:34:19pm

It's sad to see religious so brainwashed and afraid of losing their intellectual credentials that they fall over each other to be the first to make an alliance with the newer and hipper kid on the block.

To quote another , Mendez:
"Glory be to the Bomb, and to the Holy Fallout. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. World without end. Amen."

867 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 1, 2009 5:39:05am

re: #866 grenma

It's sad to see religious so brainwashed and afraid of losing their intellectual credentials that they fall over each other to be the first to make an alliance with the newer and hipper kid on the block.

To quote another , Mendez:
"Glory be to the Bomb, and to the Holy Fallout. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. World without end. Amen."

If you're comparing darwin to Einstein, they are indeed the two most seminal scientific minds in the past couple of centuries. And if you are comparing the relativity theory and Bomb with evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection, relativity theory has indeed been evidentially supported, Bombs do indeed explode, and evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection has not only been evidentially supported, but also observed and repeated in the laboratory under controlled conditions, and left its mark upon our genes.


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