Defining “Creationism” Down

Politics • Views: 4,993

Randy Barnett follows up his post on the appalling prevalence of creationists in the GOP, with a point I’ve also been hammering over and over: Defining “Creationism” Down.

If your favorite candidate is on record favoring creationism as science to be taught in government schools, he or she has already sunk himself on the national political scene whether you like it or not. Better find another candidate.

Indeed. Nice to see another conservative blogger who isn’t going to remain silent while pseudo-science wrecks the reputation of the GOP. Let’s see; we have me, Randy, and Allahpundit. Anyone else? Let me know and I’ll link your blog in this post.

Also see
The Top 3 GOP Governors: All Creationists

UPDATE at 2/24/09 1:14:13 pm:

Some conservative bloggers going off the reservation on this issue:

Noblesse Oblige » Which Controversy? Discovery Institute vs Science

Daimnation!: Darwin’s next fight

The Atheist Conservative : If I saw an angel or if man was made of brass

Chicago Boyz » Blog Archive » Happy 200th Birthday, Charles Darwin

Well That’s Just Dandy….: I Don’t Know Why This Is So Hard To Understand….

Kerplunk - Common sense from Down Under: The Discovery Institute’s willful destruction of Christian values

sisu: ‘Why can’t we get over our post-Marxist nostalgia?’

An old friend and philosophy geek: Blog Here Now

Jump to bottom

1001 comments
1 Kragar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:48:50pm

Batten the hatches

2 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:48:58pm

Good. More need to come out and declare themselves as against this moonbattery called Intelligent Design (which is really another name for Creation Science).

3 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:49:28pm

re: #1 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Batten the hatches

Screw that, I'm manning the guns.

4 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:49:53pm

Hopefully this is the start of a trend.We better fight this now,then wait and have our asses handed to us in the next cycle.

5 Peacekeeper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:50:10pm

I'm surprised that you have anyone left to argue with.

6 firepilot  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:50:33pm

Count me in. There is no reason for theology to be in science class. And I think those who are the most adamant having about Christian theology as part of science classes, would be the loudest to complain if it was another religions idea of creationism that was being taught.

whats next? Should we provide alternate views of mathematics, because of a story about a few each of some fish and loaves of bread supposedly fed thousands of people.

7 Kragar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:50:35pm

re: #3 Honorary Yooper

Screw that, I'm manning the guns.

First you button up, then you open fire

8 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:51:06pm

re: #5 Peacekeeper

I'm surprised that you have anyone left to argue with.

Excuse me?

9 Bloodnok  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:51:20pm

has sunk already himself?

Methinks Randy modifier his misplaced.

/good analysis, though

10 Buster Bunny  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:52:30pm

re: #5 Peacekeeper

I'm surprised that you have anyone left to argue with.

Trust me .. trolls breed at night. They are back in the morning for more whack-a-mole fun though !

11 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:52:46pm

re: #8 Charles

got quiet in here....

12 Kragar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:53:53pm

re: #11 Boondock St. Bender

got quiet in here....

a bit too quiet

13 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:54:40pm
If your favorite candidate is on record favoring creationism as science to be taught in government schools, he or she has sunk already himself on the national political scene whether you like it or not. Better find another candidate.

It would be nice to think that these candidates who do support this are pandering, or just ignorant of the science therefore open to the distortions from the Discovery Institute, but I fear it's more likely that they actually agree with this nonsense. I fear it's not pandering- they're willing accomplices.

14 Buster Bunny  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:54:53pm

re: #6 firepilot

There is however room for something like a theology class in school. Not a singular class, but one that teaches the bits about the different religions and belief systems of the world for kids. You know .. so they grow up informed and ready to take on the world, like school actually used to be.

15 HugoChavez  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:55:09pm

Now we're getting to the real burning issue of the GOP!

16 Buster Bunny  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:55:16pm

re: #12 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

*pin drop*

17 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:55:16pm
Anyone else?

Instapundit.

18 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:55:28pm
19 Summer Seale  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:55:30pm

Unfortunately, Hot Air is filled with almost nothing but Creationists.

20 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:56:27pm

re: #18 Bubbaman

Bye.

21 Kragar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:56:54pm

re: #16 Buster Bunny

*pin drop*

A bit too pin drop

22 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:57:15pm

re: #5 Peacekeeper

I'm surprised that you have anyone left to argue with.

It's creationism all the way down with you, isn't it

23 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:57:24pm

re: #19 Summer

That's cool,as long as they don't try to put it into science class.

24 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:57:39pm

re: #11 Boondock St. Bender

got quiet in here....

People are reading the whole lot, methinks.
Apart from anything else, its brilliantly written.

25 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:58:14pm

re: #19 Summer

Unfortunately, Hot Air is filled with almost nothing but Creationists.

The commentors, but not Allahpundit. Allah really needs to start the bannings.

26 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:58:25pm

re: #13 Sharmuta

Hey Sharmuta! [Finger]. I think they are pandering. You may be right, but, salespeople sometimes have to say things (some lie) to gain their customer's trust.

What is a politician? A salesperson. What is the electorate? The customer.

27 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:58:32pm

Comments complaining about this topic will be deleted. Continue complaining and your account will be blocked.

28 Kragar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:58:55pm

Luckily, my favored conservative candidate is not a fricking moron:

Romney Elaborates on Evolution

Mr. Romney, a devout Mormon, surprised some observers when he was not among those Republican candidates who raised their hands last week when asked at the Republican presidential debate if they did not believe in evolution. (Senator Sam Brownback, former Gov. Mike Huckabee and Representative Tom Tancredo said they did not.)

“I believe that God designed the universe and created the universe,” Mr. Romney said in an interview this week. “And I believe evolution is most likely the process he used to create the human body.”

He was asked: Is that intelligent design?

“I’m not exactly sure what is meant by intelligent design,” he said. “But I believe God is intelligent and I believe he designed the creation. And I believe he used the process of evolution to create the human body.”

While governor of Massachusetts, Mr. Romney opposed the teaching of intelligent design in science classes.

“In my opinion, the science class is where to teach evolution, or if there are other scientific thoughts that need to be discussed,” he said. “If we’re going to talk about more philosophical matters, like why it was created, and was there an intelligent designer behind it, that’s for the religion class or philosophy class or social studies
class.”

Oh, thats right, the MSM has called him "enelectable"

29 dentate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:58:57pm
It would be nice to think that these candidates who do support this are pandering, or just ignorant of the science therefore open to the distortions from the Discovery Institute, but I fear it's more likely that they actually agree with this nonsense. I fear it's not pandering- they're willing accomplices.

I am most afraid not of the ones who publicly espouse it, but of politicians who believe this stuff in private, or who say they believe it privately but won't push for it in schools, or who claim to be neutral. There is a lack of understanding of science, a lack of distinction between religion and science, that is likely to pervade the thinking of such people. I want to hear a politician come out and say that creationism and intelligent design are pseudoscientific nonsense. Period.

30 firepilot  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:58:58pm
There is however room for something like a theology class in school. Not a singular class, but one that teaches the bits about the different religions and belief systems of the world for kids. You know .. so they grow up informed and ready to take on the world, like school actually used to be.

Sure, comparative theology is fine , and there should be some of that even regardless taught in the appropriate classes.

In addition to my earlier comment that we would then need to change mathematics, lets do that for chemistry too, and talk about water being turned into wine, because well the Bible says. Thats no different than creationism going into Biology class.

31 thefallingman  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:58:59pm

It's a shame too, because Sanford has the potential to be a really good leader in the GOP if he stands firm against taking the Spendulus money..

32 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:59:04pm

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

Bye.

That was fast, I blinked and missed it.

33 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:59:08pm

re: #19 Summer

Unfortunately, Hot Air is filled with almost nothing but Creationists.

Well, they have to spout their stuff somewhere, I suppose.

34 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:59:32pm

What's happened is that this issue has become a litmus test much like abortion, gays, etc. I'm tired of the polarization based on one opinion or another. It's beginning to sound like a bunch of Demoncraps.

35 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:00:22pm
36 Peacekeeper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:00:26pm

I mean why do people still bother?

37 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:00:29pm

I think "Scion9" made a great point yesterday:

I hate to break this to you, but Bobby Jindal and his ilk are basically Christian Socialists. Jindal agrees with every damn thing the Dems have to say that really matters. The Dems are Hegelian-interpreted mainline Protestants sans God (AKA Marxists). You put the God back in the equation and you got the Discovery Institute and their ilk. The Creationist, populist rabble are constantly going off on rants against "Corporatism", etc. They are not fiscally conservative; they are not conservative at all.

Christian Socialist- I like the term. And I think we know know what "Compassionate Conservative" really meant. Fiscal conservatives have been scratching their heads trying to figure out how republicans could have so easily morphed into big spenders. Well- here's your answer.

38 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:00:39pm

re: #24 yma o hyd
was refering to charles"excuse me...."
I read it before it was linked by charles in the last thread.
lines will be drawn,sides will be chosen...
Oh yes,there will be blood....

39 dentate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:01:48pm

re: #34 Bubbaman

What's happened is that this issue has become a litmus test much like abortion, gays, etc. I'm tired of the polarization based on one opinion or another. It's beginning to sound like a bunch of Demoncraps.

Yes, it is a litmus test, but not about political beliefs. It is a litmus test of rational thinking and membership in the modern world of educated and intelligent people.

40 Buster Bunny  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:02:00pm

re: #30 firepilot

THINKING classwork is what America needs. There is too much regurgitation of precisely what makes good end of year scores and no thinking going on in the classroom. And there just should be more of it.

41 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:02:33pm

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

Bye.

Well that would be a shame. I'm not a creationist nor do I support them.

42 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:02:38pm

re: #30 firepilot

Sure, comparative theology is fine , and there should be some of that even regardless taught in the appropriate classes.

In addition to my earlier comment that we would then need to change mathematics, lets do that for chemistry too, and talk about water being turned into wine, because well the Bible says. Thats no different than creationism going into Biology class.

I recently read that the Greeks used to dilute their wine with water.

43 Kragar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:02:46pm

re: #40 Buster Bunny

THINKING classwork is what America needs. There is too much regurgitation of precisely what makes good end of year scores and no thinking going on in the classroom. And there just should be more of it.

You can thank standardized testing to receive state and federal money for that.

44 freedombilly  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:02:47pm

re: #27 Charles

Comments complaining about this topic will be deleted. Continue complaining and your account will be blocked.

Just skip the thread people if that's what you think! Is that so difficult to understand?!? What am I missing here folks?

45 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:02:51pm

re: #34 Bubbaman

Yes- how unreasonable for some of us to want rational people representing us in the halls of government. We have some nerve.

46 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:03:01pm

re: #34 Bubbaman

A litmus test how? A litmus test in that one must promote ID to be a GOP candidate? Is that where you're going with this?

47 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:03:05pm

re: #28 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
That was a terrific answer to the question.

48 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:03:16pm

re: #41 Bubbaman

Did you read Charles' comment about complaining about this topic?

49 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:03:30pm

re: #29 dentate

Its time for scientists to actually talk to those politicians and talk about what they do and about the difference between science and the humanities, which incude philosophy and religion.

50 Thor-Zone  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:03:33pm

If teaching faux science to our children isn't a prime example of government loonicy, than I do not know what is. This issue is just another example of how incompetent our government truly is at all levels....state, local and federal.

With the possible exception of the military, can you think of any program the government is involved in that actually does what it is supposed to, or delivers the services they claim to deliver?

I can't.

Anything the government is involved in reduces us all down to the lowest common denominator. It is time for a grass roots effort to take the government back and start unwinding all the programs that are not authorized under the constitution.

51 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:03:33pm
52 Kragar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:03:55pm

re: #47 Boondock St. Bender

That was a terrific answer to the question.

Precisely why he terrifies the Dems and the MSM.

53 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:04:27pm

Meltdown time.

54 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:04:27pm

re: #40 Buster Bunny

THINKING classwork is what America needs. There is too much regurgitation of precisely what makes good end of year scores and no thinking going on in the classroom. And there just should be more of it.

Not too mention nonsense that will get our kids nowhere in life, like teaching global warming as 'settled science'

55 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:04:37pm

re: #44 freedombilly

Just skip the thread people if that's what you think! Is that so difficult to understand?!? What am I missing here folks?

Some want their 15 minutes of fame here, and just have no fraking clue when to STFU. Others just want to be martyrs for the legion of the dipsticks who got whacked by Stinky for being jerks.

56 Peacekeeper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:04:41pm

So the bear looks at him and says: "You don't come here for the hunting do you?"

57 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:05:02pm

The anti-anti-science snowball is beginning to roll through the Republican party.

Thank you, Charles, for starting it down the mountain.

58 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:05:04pm

re: #34 Bubbaman

Abortion is worthy of debate. Reasonable intellectual & secular arguments can be made for either side of the issue. Whether or not the unintended consequences of gay marriage are good or bad for society is also worthy of debate from an intellectual and secular standpoint. Creation myths of one particular religion being taught as science in a classroom... is not defensible, in any way shape or form.

59 funky chicken  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:05:10pm

re: #13 Sharmuta

It would be nice to think that these candidates who do support this are pandering, or just ignorant of the science therefore open to the distortions from the Discovery Institute, but I fear it's more likely that they actually agree with this nonsense. I fear it's not pandering- they're willing accomplices.

I agree, and it's the result of a couple of decades of very hard work on the part of the creationists. They have put huge effort into taking over the GOP at the local level....so now all candidates who make it to state and national level offices have been selected and supported by the creationists.

I watched it happen in Kansas and Missouri where I grew up and went to undergrad and grad school. Moderate republicans like Jack Danforth and Nancy Landon Kassebaum fell out of favor and were replaced with far right religious types like Sam Brownback and John Ashcroft.

And now KS has a democrat governor and MO has a democrat US Senator who transformed from a moderate to full-blown worshipper of The One (Claire McCaskill). McCaskill defeated Jim Talent in 2006, and his religiosity was a large issue for MO voters.

60 HugoChavez  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:05:13pm

It's a shame to see conservatives Balkanized.

Another election pissed away by crusading factions.

61 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:05:28pm

re: #52 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Precisely why he terrifies the Dems and the MSM.

If we can get Romney back for 2012, maybe there is real hope and real change.

62 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:05:40pm

re: #48 Walter L. Newton

Did you read Charles' comment about complaining about this topic?

Nope, I think my comment appeared before reading about it. I guess I am the dope. Mea culpa.

63 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:05:52pm
I have received 3 polite emails to the effect that there is a reasonable "creationism" that a Republican candidate like Bobby Jindal could hold.

Hey, he's still getting polite emails. Is he new at this? Or is it his audience (lawyers?)

64 MPH  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:05:52pm

My guess of a list of potential others willing to speak up:

Glenn Reynolds
Roger Simon
Michael Totten
Zombie
Dean Esmay
Fabius Maximus
Ace of Spades
Stephen Green
Dan Riehl
Eric Scheie
Abe Greenwald

I could come up with a lot more with a bit more time invested...

(though its hard to call anyone on this list "conservative" -- and that might be the problem, no?)

BTW - I'd like to see Michelle Malkin take a public stand one way or the other...

65 Buster Bunny  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:06:00pm

re: #57 Salamantis

Ah .. so .. to misquote Billy Joel ...

WE DID START THE FIRE !

66 freedombilly  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:06:09pm

There was a headline on the Live Desk on Fox News earlier today that read:

"Jindal Star Power"

Oh boy...re: #57 Salamantis

The anti-anti-science snowball is beginning to roll through the Republican party.

Thank you, Charles, for starting it down the mountain.

And you, Salamanitis.

67 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:06:12pm

I have a complaint about this topic: Republican leaders aren't listening.

This country is going down a socialist/paternalist statist hole and we still have idiots who think the social agenda will save us.

68 opnion  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:06:22pm

Illlinois Senior Senator Dick Durbin had a private meeting today with Roland Burris & asked him to resign. FNC reported it & Durbin confirmed it.
Apparently the fish wasn't biting.
Durbin said that Burris was seated on two conditions ,
1. That the proper paperwork was filed.
2. That he answered truthfly to the IL House, Impeachment Committee.
I don't think so. Burris was duly appointed by a sitting governor.
The signed document from the IL Sec of State was not necessary.
Any perjury before the Committee is a State matter.
Face it, Blago stuck it to you.

69 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:06:44pm

re: #67 karmic_inquisitor

I have a complaint about this topic: Republican leaders aren't listening.

This country is going down a socialist/paternalist statist hole and we still have idiots who think the social agenda will save us.

"do you believe in magic..."

70 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:07:04pm

re: #64 MPH

Zombie has spoken out. The Undead One has spoken here about ID.

71 HugoChavez  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:07:05pm

re: #67 karmic_inquisitor

I have a complaint about this topic: Republican leaders aren't listening.

This country is going down a socialist/paternalist statist hole and we still have idiots who think the social agenda will save us.

And letting side issues determine the direction of the movement.

72 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:07:09pm

re: #67 karmic_inquisitor

I have a complaint about this topic: Republican leaders aren't listening.

Unfortunately, that has been the case for almost a decade.

73 Buster Bunny  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:07:28pm

re: #61 Honorary Yooper

At this stage I'd back Kermit the Frog over the O. I totally respect him for his 'green' policies.

74 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:07:31pm

re: #63 wrenchwench

Hey, he's still getting polite emails. Is he new at this? Or is it his audience (lawyers?)

He's new at it.

75 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:07:32pm

re: #51 HugoChavez

Now, stop it. You're my favorite sock.

76 freedombilly  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:07:36pm

re: #66 freedombilly

That was supposed to be two separate posts. PIMF!

77 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:07:49pm

re: #46 Honorary Yooper

A litmus test how? A litmus test in that one must promote ID to be a GOP candidate? Is that where you're going with this?

No, I think he means the other way.

78 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:08:14pm

re: #60 HugoChavez

I disagree. Seems the real "RINOS" are the ones pushing the Christian Socialism. They should form their own party instead of ruining ours because if both parties are going to be big social spenders then there is nowhere for fiscal conservatives to go. And you can't deny the republicans started spending like drunken sailors (not including Iraq) and that's why they lost power.

79 firepilot  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:08:32pm

What is frustrating as someone with a Science background, is thatwhile lefties are often even more ignorant of science, since they are so emotion/feeling based, but they donot act frightened of science like some religious/social conservatives do.

Granted there is some of that when it interferes with the Global Warming religion, but you do not see lefties trying to get science classes and textbooks watered down so that religion can be introduced. While they may not often major in the sciences, they do not seem to have the issues with science that religious conservatives do.

80 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:08:40pm

re: #75 MandyManners

Now, stop it. You're my favorite sock.

Just call him Johnny Socko.

81 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:09:51pm

re: #58 ArchangelMichael

Abortion is worthy of debate. Reasonable intellectual & secular arguments can be made for either side of the issue. Whether or not the unintended consequences of gay marriage are good or bad for society is also worthy of debate from an intellectual and secular standpoint. Creation myths of one particular religion being taught as science in a classroom... is not defensible, in any way shape or form.

Believing in ID is one thing; pushing for it to be taught in schools is another.

82 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:10:03pm

re: #60 HugoChavez

It's a fight that has to happen,we didn't ask for it but it must be fought.The dems did not fight when the lunatic fringe took over that party in the early seventies.They used the "big tent"and lost their party as a result.We need to stand for what we believe,then and only then will we be strong enough to take on the socialists...i mean democrats.

83 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:10:08pm

re: #58 ArchangelMichael

Indeed - and I wish people would realise that by working to get ID into science lectures into public schools they are opening the door wide to get another religion into the exact same classroom.
If the DI achieves that - wait for CAIR to demand its religion be given equal treatment. Its only fair ...

Is that what all these Christians want? That their children be also taught the ROP, officially? Instead of science?

84 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:10:33pm

re: #58 ArchangelMichael

Abortion is worthy of debate. Reasonable intellectual & secular arguments can be made for either side of the issue. Whether or not the unintended consequences of gay marriage are good or bad for society is also worthy of debate from an intellectual and secular standpoint. Creation myths of one particular religion being taught as science in a classroom... is not defensible, in any way shape or form.

I'll tell you that I am very concerned about creationism being taught in schools outside of a religious studies context. It sets a very dangerous precedent that would allow any adherent, be it a Scientologist or Muslim to rightly argue the admission of their half-cocked beliefs. There is no doubt in my mind that teaching children about the scientific method and theory of evolution is the proper way to go.

85 funky chicken  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:10:46pm

re: #37 Sharmuta

I think "Scion9" made a great point yesterday:


Christian Socialist- I like the term. And I think we know know what "Compassionate Conservative" really meant. Fiscal conservatives have been scratching their heads trying to figure out how republicans could have so easily morphed into big spenders. Well- here's your answer.

Yep. GW Bush increased "foreign aid" to Africa well over even Clintonian levels. He ran huge budget deficits while increasing domestic spending also. He basically set us up to swallow some kind of "Global Poverty Act" whenever Obama and the socialists bring it up, IMHO.

86 HugoChavez  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:10:50pm

re: #75 MandyManners

Oh I can get all worked up and sweaty over and issue like anyone else, especially a little red manual on "69". Care to help me try it out oh, hot, white conservative woman?

87 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:11:49pm

Well I did an article a while back, but I don't know if it's worded strongly enough since it doesn't specifically warn about creationist candidates:

Discovery Institute is destructive to both the right and to Christianity - if you delve into the most divisive issues within the right this century you will detect their hand at play in most. The credence of their arguments has gone up in flames but they persist in their determination to deconstruct science, even as other institutions of faith distance themselves.

[Link: noblesseoblige.org...]

88 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:11:54pm

re: #64 MPH

Actually this came up on big hollywood in the comments section.Charles has trained his minions well.

89 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:12:00pm

re: #81 Ward Cleaver

Believing in ID is one thing; pushing for it to be taught in schools is another.

I think you are missing the same thing many miss: "ID" means teaching it in the schools. You need a different name for believing God made the world.

90 Peacekeeper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:12:06pm

re: #86 HugoChavez

Oh I can get all worked up and sweaty over and issue like anyone else, especially a little red manual on "69". Care to help me try it out oh, hot, white conservative woman?

Now that's obnoxious.

91 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:12:06pm

re: #86 HugoChavez

Oh I can get all worked up and sweaty over and issue like anyone else, especially a little red manual on "69". Care to help me try it out oh, hot, white conservative woman?

Uh oh.

92 ProUSA  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:12:31pm

re: #14 Buster Bunny

There is however room for something like a theology class in school. Not a singular class, but one that teaches the bits about the different religions and belief systems of the world for kids. You know .. so they grow up informed and ready to take on the world, like school actually used to be.

Agreed. I went to public school. In high school I took a "mythology" class which taught the religions around the world -- not as truth, but as what people believed. I always thought the title "mythology" was potentially offensive to those who were of those religions, but we learned a lot. The teacher was highly qualified with advanced degrees in theology. We did not learn about Christianity though.

My politicians don't have to be scientists, and they can believe in creationism if they want. But, they shall not ram it down the throats of public school disguised as science.

93 Bubbaman  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:12:41pm

re: #77 Ward Cleaver

No, I think he means the other way.

Thank you. I am very concerned that the Repubs use these litmus tests much in the same way that the Demoncraps do.

94 opnion  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:13:13pm

re: #61 Honorary Yooper

If we can get Romney back for 2012, maybe there is real hope and real change.

Romney, in my opinion would have been the strongest candidate ths last election. The MSM did not want him. McCain & Huckabee ganged up on him like school yard brats.
THe Republicans should restructure the open primaries to closed & nominate him & go after Obama.

95 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:13:34pm

re: #92 ProUSA

Agreed. I went to public school. In high school I took a "mythology" class which taught the religions around the world -- not as truth, but as what people believed. I always thought the title "mythology" was potentially offensive to those who were of those religions, but we learned a lot. The teacher was highly qualified with advanced degrees in theology. We did not learn about Christianity though.

My politicians don't have to be scientists, and they can believe in creationism if they want. But, they shall not ram it down the throats of public school disguised as science.

"Comparative Religion" is a better term.

96 Throbert McGee  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:13:34pm

Also at Volokh Conspiracy, a good comment from another blogger, and a wise response:

And keep in mind: many of those who most vociferously mock religious Republicans harbor creationist beliefs of their own. Listen to some of these people talk about Nature, and how everything in Nature must have some beneficial use to us if only we had the wisdom to find it, or how the answer to every problem lies in turning away from Technology and looking in Nature. Dress up creationism in pseudo-pagan language, and they just eat it up.

Fair enough. But even with this admonition in mind, I will modify my claim only slightly: No avowedly creationist Republican candidate will be elected President of the United States. Not. Gonna. Happen.

In other words: Yes, it's technically "unfair" that Gaia-worshipping pseudoscience won't necessarily kill a Democratic candidacy, but Creationist pseudoscience will kill a GOP candidacy -- but that's the political reality, so deal with it.

97 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:13:40pm

re: #86 HugoChavez

Oh I can get all worked up and sweaty over and issue like anyone else, especially a little red manual on "69". Care to help me try it out oh, hot, white conservative woman?

Oh, you tan devil, you!

98 meeshlr  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:13:53pm

re: #64 MPH

That's a complication, isn't it? What is "conservative"?

I find that I don't fit into the typical political definitions. I'm definitely not a Democrat but I'm not sure if I'm welcome in the Republican Party as it currently stands.

I asked in our blog "Is there room for me?". The more the Republican Party swings toward intelligent design and creationism the more I feel that the answer is "no."

99 vxbush  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:14:00pm

Charles, have you started playing with the Safari 4 beta? It has the preview page with multiple sites in the same way as Opera, and I know you disliked that because of the way it causes extra hits on a site. Or something like that.

100 essayons7  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:14:02pm

Count me in - creationism SHOULD NOT be taught as science.

Sadly, I don't have a website to link to, but I'm with you on this!

101 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:14:05pm

re: #85 funky chicken

The only major differences are in national security and abortion. Other than that- what's really the difference between these "compassionate conservatives" and a democrat? They both want to throw money at problems, and tell the rest of us how to best live our lives instead of leaving us alone.

102 firepilot  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:14:07pm
I disagree. Seems the real "RINOS" are the ones pushing the Christian Socialism. They should form their own party instead of ruining ours because if both parties are going to be big social spenders then there is nowhere for fiscal conservatives to go.

That is a huge issue of mine with a lot of Republicans right now, and is partly why the intermountain West states are going Democrat. Outside of the LDS out here, most everyone else has more of a social libertarian bent, in other words just let me live my own life. But the Republicans as of late seem to be just as fine with a Nanny state based on socially conservative values, and well they think at least Dems wont be telling them how to live.

Its really humorous when if you advocate a return to classic Republican values - Smaller government that gets out of peoples lives, lower taxes, etc, you get called Democrat lite for not thinking its the governments job to tell people how to live. When in reality its the Social conservatives who advocate a conservative Nanny state who are more like the Left.

103 HugoChavez  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:14:10pm

re: #91 Ward Cleaver

Ok, hand over that Oscar, you commie loving, homo loving homo!

104 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:14:13pm

re: #90 Peacekeeper

Now that's obnoxious.

I just now got it. Man, I'm slow today.

105 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:14:43pm

re: #37 Sharmuta

I think "Scion9" made a great point yesterday:

Christian Socialist- I like the term. And I think we know know what "Compassionate Conservative" really meant. Fiscal conservatives have been scratching their heads trying to figure out how republicans could have so easily morphed into big spenders. Well- here's your answer.

Scion9 is right on the money with this. This is exactly what Huckabee is too. I could not for the life of me understand why anyone supported the guy. It seemed to me like his abortion stance and his humoring of the "fair tax" crowd were the only things remotely "conservative" about him. He was a lefty on everything else that mattered. Even Rush Limbaugh saw through it and pointed out exactly who this guy was. Why he cant see this in Jindal, I don't know. I know Rush is unfortunately on the ID and so-con bandwagon but he usually tends to be on the anti-socialist bandwagon as well.

106 Peacekeeper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:14:48pm

re: #97 MandyManners

Oh, you tan devil, you!


Nicely played.

107 SpaceJesus  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:14:50pm

I just hope the economy doesn't falter so badly, making Obama and the dems seen as such failures, that idiots like Jindal are swept into power in this country.

it's a rock and a hard place.

108 capitalist piglet  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:15:00pm

re: #91 Ward Cleaver

Uh oh.

To quote an outspoken wide receiver who plays football for the Dallas Cowboys: "Getcha popcorn ready."

109 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:15:02pm

re: #89 wrenchwench

I think you are missing the same thing many miss: "ID" means teaching it in the schools. You need a different name for believing God made the world.

No, I'm just trying separate people's personally-held beliefs (creationism) with pushing for those beliefs to be taught as science (ID).

110 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:15:15pm

re: #106 Peacekeeper

Nicely played.

Because White Devil would be racist.

//

111 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:15:19pm

I don't know, things seemed so much simple when I was growing up. The weekends were for going to Church, Temple, and Sunday School ( maybe bitching and moaning all the way but..) and Monday thru Friday was for the 3 R's. And the two never seemed to meet, except maybe for Hebrew school on Monday and Wednesday or Tuesday and Thursday, but I usually hid in the gym.

112 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:15:48pm

re: #97 MandyManners

Oh, you tan devil, you!

What, no whack? Really uh oh now.

114 Buster Bunny  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:16:37pm

re: #107 spacejesus

I just hope the economy doesn't falter so badly, making Obama and the dems seen as such failures, that idiots like Jindal are swept into power in this country.

it's a rock and a hard place.

You know for a second spacejesus .. with a quote like that .. I felt like dinging you up .. it sounded so rational .. and sane.

But I'd hate to ruin that near perfect karma balance you have there.

115 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:16:46pm

re: #108 capitalist piglet

To quote an outspoken wide receiver who plays football for the Dallas Cowboys: "Getcha popcorn ready."

Yeah, one who will still be one of "Jerry's Kids" next season.

116 MPH  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:17:04pm

re: #70 Honorary Yooper

Zombie has spoken out. The Undead One has spoken here about ID.

Of course, of course...Charles seems to be forming an official list...the undead one most definitely should be on there...

117 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:17:15pm

re: #110 Wyatt Earp

Because White Devil would be racist.

//

No, "White Devil" is allowed. Also allowed are "whitey, "cracker", "honkey", and "Charlie and Mr. BoBo".

/

118 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:17:16pm

If some Muslims wish to resurrect the Caliphate why can't some Christians wish to resurrect the Holy Roman Empire? ("Why can't" in the sense that why can't it be that?)

119 HugoChavez  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:17:34pm

re: #113 MandyManners

Not as much as I love the smell of the ocean.

120 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:17:58pm

re: #103 HugoChavez

Ok, hand over that Oscar, you commie loving, homo loving homo!

I could have done without that one.

Brain bleach, please!

121 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:18:14pm

re: #118 SFGoth

If some Muslims wish to resurrect the Caliphate why can't some Christians wish to resurrect the Holy Roman Empire? ("Why can't" in the sense that why can't it be that?)

Well there was this guy named Mussolini?

122 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:18:30pm

re: #117 OldLineTexan

No, "White Devil" is allowed. Also allowed are "whitey, "cracker", "honkey", and "Charlie and Mr. BoBo".

/

I can't even ask for Ritz Bits anymore for fear of offending "whitey."

/

123 Russkilitlover  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:18:33pm

re: #78 Sharmuta

I disagree. Seems the real "RINOS" are the ones pushing the Christian Socialism. They should form their own party instead of ruining ours because if both parties are going to be big social spenders then there is nowhere for fiscal conservatives to go. And you can't deny the republicans started spending like drunken sailors (not including Iraq) and that's why they lost power.

And it's disturbing that the media is gloming onto these Christian Socialists as THE Republican party voice.

Case in point, Jindahl is giving the Repub commentary to Barry's speech tonight. Media outlets I've heard on the radio are labeling Jindahl as the "rising star" of the Republican party.

Won't be much of a party left.

124 Cato  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:18:35pm

I do not believe that creationism should be taught in the schools. It is both stupid and the existing caselaw says that it violates the establishment clause. I would question which religion it is promoting as both fundamental Islam and Christianity support a creationist view, but that is neither here nor there since the case law is clear.

However, there is a view of education that schools act in loco parentis, essentially taking the role parents would play in educating their children. What if the student's parent believes in creationism? Does that mean that the schools must teach them these superstitions? Remember, people have a right to live in error. Parents have a right to transmit their errors to their children.

125 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:18:51pm

re: #119 HugoChavez

Not as much as I love the smell of the ocean.

Hey, sea kittens keep themselves impecably clean!

126 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:19:29pm

re: #121 nevergiveup

Well there was this guy named Mussolini?

Wrong empire - Roman, not Holy Roman.

127 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:19:42pm

re: #93 Bubbaman

Thank you. I am very concerned that the Repubs use these litmus tests much in the same way that the Demoncraps do.

How about we do allow for a litmus test? Along the lines of an issue I thought most "conservatives" cared about- fiscal restraint. Most of these asshats in Congress in both houses have spent, spent, spent. Not going to be a fisc-con? Then you won't get my support. Tell you will be and you don't toe the line fiscally- you get voted out of office.

What's so wrong about that?

128 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:19:42pm

re: #119 HugoChavez

Como se dice "Maisey" en Espanol?

129 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:20:08pm

re: #128 MandyManners

Como se dice "Maisey" en Espanol?

QUE?

130 quickjustice  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:20:16pm

Whatever happened to common sense religion? Religion that's muscular enough to tolerate other ideas, and even to promote them, secure in its own sphere? Religous people who think they must lobby government to force religion into public schools are as bad as the atheists who think it's the height of patriotism to force "In G-d We Trust" off our coins.

131 Thor-Zone  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:20:34pm

re: #101 Sharmuta

They both want to throw money at problems, and tell the rest of us how to best live our lives instead of leaving us alone.

That is a big problem with the country right now. It seems everyone wants to tell everyone else how to live their lives. I am all for being left alone.

132 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:20:36pm

re: #127 Sharmuta

Sounds good to me.Lets get that ball rolling!

133 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:20:38pm

re: #126 SFGoth

Wrong empire - Roman, not Holy Roman.

maybe that was benito's mistake also?

134 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:20:41pm

re: #128 MandyManners

Funny!

135 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:20:50pm

re: #126 SFGoth

Wrong empire - Roman, not Holy Roman.

Same concept though. Recreate an ancient empire in modern times.

136 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:21:12pm

re: #130 quickjustice

[ ]Religous people who think they must lobby government to force religion into public schools are as bad as the atheists who think it's the height of patriotism to force "In G-d We Trust" off our coins.

Which god? Oh, and it doesn't say "In G-d We Trust" so why don't you quote it accurately?

137 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:21:16pm

I don't think I've ever posted about ID on Cold Raptor, but I am certainly on your side in this Charles.
With a grand total of 54 postings since I started on Nov. 5, 2007, I could hardly call myself either, but here's my support anyway.

138 HugoChavez  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:21:22pm

re: #128 MandyManners

Como se dice "Maisey" en Espanol?

I will have to think about that one.

139 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:21:28pm

re: #124 Cato

I do not believe that creationism should be taught in the schools. It is both stupid and the existing caselaw says that it violates the establishment clause. I would question which religion it is promoting as both fundamental Islam and Christianity support a creationist view, but that is neither here nor there since the case law is clear.

However, there is a view of education that schools act in loco parentis, essentially taking the role parents would play in educating their children. What if the student's parent believes in creationism? Does that mean that the schools must teach them these superstitions? Remember, people have a right to live in error. Parents have a right to transmit their errors to their children.

If the parents believe in creationism, they are free to teach their children about it at home. They are free to send them to creationist churches, or enroll them in creationist private schools. What they are NOT free to do is to insist that the state teach EVERYBODY'S kids their pet religious dogmas.

140 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:21:31pm

re: #129 OldLineTexan

QUE?

¿QUE?

141 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:21:41pm
142 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:21:44pm

re: #123 Russkilitlover

And it's disturbing that the media is gloming onto these Christian Socialists as THE Republican party voice.

Case in point, Jindahl is giving the Repub commentary to Barry's speech tonight. Media outlets I've heard on the radio are labeling Jindahl as the "rising star" of the Republican party.

Won't be much of a party left.

Of course the msm wants to promote the Christian Socialists- they basically agree on spending money. And the msm knows promoting one of these people will be poisonous to the GOP in 2012. The fix is in- we need to stop it now.

143 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:21:46pm

re: #135 Honorary Yooper

Same concept though. Recreate an ancient empire in modern times.

But Ethiopia was a strange place to start?

144 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:21:49pm

re: #130 quickjustice

Whatever happened to common sense religion? Religion that's muscular enough to tolerate other ideas, and even to promote them, secure in its own sphere? Religous people who think they must lobby government to force religion into public schools are as bad as the atheists who think it's the height of patriotism to force "In G-d We Trust" off our coins.

The "In God We Trust" thing makes my head explode.

145 Annar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:22:01pm

At least Romney keeps his religion to his underwear and out of sight.

A clown like Akansas preacher Huckabee is even worse than the three governors. One might hope that Sanford could recant or Jindal have a heart to heart with Benedict but these things are unlikely. Maybe an unknown will pop up.

146 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:22:04pm

re: #126 SFGoth

Wrong empire - Roman, not Holy Roman.

Heh - wasn't that the German one? So - evoking shades of Hitler ...
Nobody would touch it with a bargepole!

147 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:22:15pm

re: #136 SFGoth

Which god? Oh, and it doesn't say "In G-d We Trust" so why don't you quote it accurately?

?

I have a quarter right here with that phrase on the front

IN GOD WE TRUST

148 ProUSA  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:22:22pm

re: #95 Ward Cleaver

"Comparative Religion" is a better term.

Yes. It was the 70s in Wisconsin.

149 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:22:33pm

re: #109 Ward Cleaver

No, I'm just trying separate people's personally-held beliefs (creationism) with pushing for those beliefs to be taught as science (ID).

OK, you do get it. I think some get lost in the terminology and that's when they think Christians are being "bashed."

150 MPH  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:22:38pm

re: #124 Cato

Parents have a right to transmit their errors to their children.

True...but not on my dime...

151 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:22:46pm

re: #130 quickjustice

The whole issue is a cats paw to get prayer back in the publis schools.By allowing ID in schools,you give the impression of offical sanction of the govt.It's a long road,but they won't stop with science class.

152 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:22:49pm

re: #137 CyanSnowHawk

I don't think I've ever posted about ID on Cold Raptor, but I am certainly on your side in this Charles.
With a grand total of 54 postings since I started on Nov. 5, 2007, I could hardly call myself either, but here's my support anyway.

Well, write a post about it and I'll link it...

153 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:22:57pm

re: #140 MandyManners

I'm lazy, 'K?

/

154 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:23:06pm
155 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:23:07pm

re: #147 OldLineTexan

?

I have a quarter right here with that phrase on the front

IN GOD WE TRUST

So you agree with me?

156 HugoChavez  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:23:09pm

re: #140 MandyManners

¿QUE?

Even though you agreed to help me try out my new little red manual, please don't make me give up brown sugar.

157 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:23:15pm

re: #138 HugoChavez

I will have to think about that one.

So that's why the ladies love you!

158 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:23:17pm

re: #143 nevergiveup

But Ethiopia was a strange place to start?

Yes, but he also went after Albania.

159 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:23:19pm

Ha ha ha.

Jew-hating Holocaust denying Bishop scuffles with reporter AND gets kicked out of former Nazi haven Argentina.
IRONY IS LIKE SO IRONIC
IRONY IS LIKE SOOOO IRONIC

Or paybacks are a bitch-or something. Whatever!

160 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:23:25pm

Anyone know where Newt stands on this?

161 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:23:43pm

Well, you can eventually add my website to the list, as I am currently working on a new report on this issue....It won't be up for a couple of weeks though, because I have to go back and take some more pictures in order to complete it.

162 Peacekeeper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:23:47pm

re: #157 MandyManners

So that's why the ladies love you!


get a room you two.

163 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:23:51pm
164 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:23:58pm

Creationism is like sex. Done in private it offends nobody. Done in public, its probably not a good idea. I think Jindal and others have now ruled themselves out for 2012.

165 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:24:00pm

re: #147 OldLineTexan

?

I have a quarter right here with that phrase on the front

IN GOD WE TRUST

All others pay cash.

166 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:24:05pm

re: #158 Honorary Yooper

Yes, but he also went after Albania.

Both real hot spots to vacation in?

167 Proximate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:24:11pm

It is very disappointing that any in the GOP is embraces creationism.

But it is also sad that many Republicans latch on to Gaia-worshipping-type eco-nuttery.

One of the above would destroy what's left of the economy, end private ownership and starve millions. The answer is left to the reader.

168 Buster Bunny  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:24:28pm

re: #163 CalipHater

Bye?

169 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:24:29pm

re: #136 SFGoth
Some folks feel or believe it is wrong to invoke the almighty.I can respect that.

170 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:24:43pm

re: #160 Leonidas Hoplite

Anyone know where Newt stands on this?

Newt goes either way, depending on which audience he's speaking to.

171 dhg4  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:24:57pm

re: #83 yma o hyd

Indeed - and I wish people would realise that by working to get ID into science lectures into public schools they are opening the door wide to get another religion into the exact same classroom.
If the DI achieves that - wait for CAIR to demand its religion be given equal treatment. Its only fair ...

Is that what all these Christians want? That their children be also taught the ROP, officially? Instead of science?

My guess is that they are already being taught that. Chas Freeman, recently appointed to work in the Obama administration runs an organization, the Middle East Policy Council. Here's his description of what the MEPC does:

SUSRIS: Thank you, Ambassador Freeman, for taking time today to talk about the Middle East Policy Council. Can you tell us about the mission of the MEPC?

Ambassador Chas W. Freeman, Jr.: The Middle East Policy Council is one of less than a handful of organizations devoted to making the case to Americans that American interests dictate a strong and positive relationship with the Arabs and with Islam generally. Our board is entirely American and our focus is very much on American interests and on helping Americans understand the interests of our diplomatic partners and adversaries in the region.

The Council works in three main areas: a series of policy discussions on Capitol Hill addressing topics that are either neglected or are too awkward politically to get the attention they require on the part of Washington policy community; Middle East Policy which is the premier quarterly journal in the field both in the US and internationally; and, of course, there is the MEPC program of training high school teachers how to teach about Arab civilization and Islam.

This interview is with the Saudi-US Relations Information Service and he thanks the kingdom for funding his organization including the teacher training program. So what do you think gets taught at public schools that higher said teachers?

172 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:25:03pm

163 going going going...

173 Annar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:25:07pm

re: #95 Ward Cleaver

"Comparative Religion" is a better term.

I'd go for "Comparative Mythology."

174 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:25:09pm

It's still only 2009. Perhaps sanity will prevail and the GOP will clear out the ID/Creationist platform.
BUT, what if in 2012, it's Obama/Bidev vs Palin/Jindal?

/or will the country be beyond saving then anyway?

175 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:25:27pm

re: #155 SFGoth

So you agree with me?

I missed that.

You are talking about the "G_d" thing? I have noticed a lot of people here do that. I assume it's out of piety. Doesn't bother me.

176 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:25:36pm

re: #164 Shr_Nfr

Creationism is like sex. Done in private it offends nobody.


Creationism is like incest. Done it private it often creates warped children with recessive genes and serious birth defects, including retardation that inhibits the ability to understand modern science or any complex concept.

177 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:25:47pm

re: #163 CalipHater

Youtube Video
178 Russkilitlover  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:25:50pm

re: #163 CalipHater

In 4...3...2...1..

179 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:25:56pm

Smells like meltdown.

180 HugoChavez  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:25:58pm

re: #157 MandyManners

So that's why the ladies love you!

No, it's because my güevo is this long.

181 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:25:59pm

If you mix a complaint about the topic with insults and hand-to-the-forehead dramatic goodbye messages, your account will be blocked.

182 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:26:20pm

re: #146 yma o hyd

If i remember correctly that would be the first reich.

183 Buster Bunny  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:26:23pm

re: #172 nevergiveup

163 going going going...

TOUCHDOWN !

184 Russkilitlover  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:26:36pm

re: #178 Russkilitlover

In 4...3...2...1..


Okay, that should have been in 2..1...

185 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:26:43pm

re: #172 nevergiveup

163 going going going...

GONE!

186 Cato  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:26:47pm

re: #139 Salamantis

Salamantis,

I think that is true. That is why I tell my 8 year old when he tells me how we should recycle that recycling laws were created as make-work projects for the Mafia. Nevertheless, I hate his lectures because the naive views of his teachers' do not comport with my worldview.

I can imagine a creationist family resenting their kid's tale of Darwin and resenting it as well. I think that makes me against public education.

187 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:27:09pm
188 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:27:10pm

re: #183 Buster Bunny

TOUCHDOWN !

Well wrong sport but what the hell

189 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:27:16pm

re: #156 HugoChavez

Even though you agreed to help me try out my new little red manual, please don't make me give up brown sugar.

No but, you must give up him.

190 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:27:28pm

re: #154 buzzsawmonkey

The old steel pennies had "In God We Rust" on them.

My mom had a whole sack full of those until a burglar took them.

191 Teh Flowah  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:27:37pm

Anyone who's read my posts here about this topic knows my stance, but again, I must restate:

Unless a great deal of the majority answering affirmatively to the numerous polls about belief in creationism are simply non-voting Americans, I can't see this being an issue that hurts Republicans in any noticeable way. Which isn't to say that the issue shouldn't be targeted by Republicans as a plank that the party should in no way support or be affiliated with. But it should be done so because it is bad logic and not poor polling(even though its not poor polling..)

192 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:27:43pm

re: #103 HugoChavez

Ok, hand over that Oscar, you commie loving, homo loving homo!

Aaaiii! My eyes!

193 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:27:54pm

re: #185 Wyatt Earp

GONE!

But was it a steroid induced dinger?

194 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:27:55pm
195 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:27:58pm

re: #175 OldLineTexan

I missed that.

You are talking about the "G_d" thing? I have noticed a lot of people here do that. I assume it's out of piety. Doesn't bother me.

You don't see the irony in that? The coinage spells out god (God) yet many people find that offensive and spell it G-d, yet at the same time they have no problem with the phrase. I'd rather we get rid of it altogether before "God" becomes Allah.

196 HugoChavez  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:28:04pm

re: #189 MandyManners

No but, you must give up him.

How can anyone resist those sexy Mickey boxers?

197 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:28:17pm

re: #179 Sharmuta

Smells like meltdown.

Suprised it took so long. We actually got over 160 comments before that happened. Won't be the last this thread though.

198 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:28:26pm

re: #142 Sharmuta

Of course the msm wants to promote the Christian Socialists- they basically agree on spending money. And the msm knows promoting one of these people will be poisonous to the GOP in 2012. The fix is in- we need to stop it now.

This is probably why the MSM held Huckabee in a good light during the primaries as well. They knew he could be destroyed by in a general election campaign. They also knew that, on the off chance he actually did get elected, he'd be a big government spend like a drunken sailor RINO who would do everything they want anyway, but they would get to bitch about it for years to "stay relevant". Just like they did with Bush and his compassionate conservatism.

199 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:28:32pm

re: #187 buzzsawmonkey

Buzz did you see my linky up there ^ ^ about our favourite Bishop?

(just kidding about the favourite thing...)

200 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:28:58pm

re: #193 nevergiveup

But was it a steroid induced dinger?

Not sure, but like Bonds' homers, it still counts. Maybe we can put an asterisk next to CalipHate's post?

201 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:29:01pm

re: #158 Honorary Yooper

Yes, but he also went after Albania.

Benito was kind of a fascist-imperialist underachiever, wasn't he?

202 HugoChavez  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:29:08pm

Barack, I am your faaaaaather!

203 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:29:15pm

re: #167 Proximate

It is very disappointing that any in the GOP is embraces creationism.

But it is also sad that many Republicans latch on to Gaia-worshipping-type eco-nuttery.

One of the above would destroy what's left of the economy, end private ownership and starve millions. The answer is left to the reader.

And the other one damages the future bioscience employment prospects of America's children, and, through costing us future cometent bioscientists, endangers the future national security and economic prosperity of the US.

204 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:29:23pm

re: #198 ArchangelMichael

This is probably why the MSM held Huckabee in a good light during the primaries as well.

It's why they gave him his own show!

205 debutaunt  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:29:38pm

re: #155 SFGoth

So you agree with me?

Are coins with the hyphens more valuable?

206 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:29:54pm

re: #201 Occasional Reader

Benito was kind of a fascist-imperialist underachiever, wasn't he?

Well, the Italians already had Libya, so how could any other conquests be any worse?

207 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:30:04pm

re: #171 dhg4

Oh nice!
Teachers whose training is paid for by the Magic Kingdom - well, three guesses what they'll be teaching.
This is another fine example of a wedge strategy. The aim is not, of course to 'teach religion', but to teach about what Ayrabs are all about ...
That, i supose, would get into the geography/history/social sciences curriculum.

Looks like the fundamentalsts of both the Christian and the Islamic persuasion are working hard to get their feet into the doors of the public schools in the USA.

Time to expose this - time to work agaisnt this.

208 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:30:12pm

re: #162 Peacekeeper

get a room you two.

Hell no! This is fun to watch!

209 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:30:28pm
210 Bloodnok  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:30:29pm

re: #60 HugoChavez

It's a shame to see conservatives Balkanized.

Another election pissed away by crusading factions.

Which means we should give an inch to subverting the Constitution and having Creationism (and any other faith's Creation story) taught in schools? Sorry. Not me.

212 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:31:21pm

OT -

Does anyone have any good recipes for Hormel Vienna Sausage?

213 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:31:29pm

re: #206 Honorary Yooper

Well, the Italians already had Libya, so how could any other conquests be any worse?

Do you get the feeling Hitler laughed himself silly every time he got off the phone with Mussolini?

214 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:31:48pm

re: #209 buzzsawmonkey

I know. The story is fun on so very many levels. Next thing you know they'll be kicking out Iranian operatives!

215 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:31:54pm

re: #186 Cato

Salamantis,

I think that is true. That is why I tell my 8 year old when he tells me how we should recycle that recycling laws were created as make-work projects for the Mafia. Nevertheless, I hate his lectures because the naive views of his teachers' do not comport with my worldview.

I can imagine a creationist family resenting their kid's tale of Darwin and resenting it as well. I think that makes me against public education.

I recounted this story yesterday - I flew home with my family to Newark airport two nights ago and took my son (he's 7) with me to get our car. As it was about 25 degrees outside, I let the car warm up for a few minutes - and my son asked me if I was wasting gas. I explained to him that the car runs more efficiently, and will last longer, if it is allowed to warm up properly in cold weather. The point being, as a parent you have to be vigilant about what is being taught to your kids in public schools. It ain't all readin' and writin' and 'rithmatic.

216 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:32:08pm

re: #137 CyanSnowHawk

I don't think I've ever posted about ID on Cold Raptor, but I am certainly on your side in this Charles.
With a grand total of 54 postings since I started on Nov. 5, 2007, I could hardly call myself either, but here's my support anyway.

call myself either?

PIMF dammit.

call myself a blogger either...

/more difficult than I thought apparently.

217 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:32:10pm

re: #201 Occasional Reader

Benito was kind of a fascist-imperialist underachiever, wasn't he?

Whenever I play Germany in Hearts of Iron, I invade Italy in early 1939. No one gives a shit. I take the top 1/3 pretty quickly and leave Italy with a rump state. Not very resource-rich and too much effort to police. But I get to invade France from the south east which makes it a breeze.

218 opnion  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:32:16pm

re: #212 Walter L. Newton

OT -

Does anyone have any good recipes for Hormel Vienna Sausage?

Yeah, serve it with a six pack of beer as a sidedish.

219 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:32:34pm

re: #210 Bloodnok

OT: Hi! I called the Hamdard Center, and I will have more information tomorrow afternoon about how we can donate in Ms Parvez's honor.

220 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:32:39pm

re: #213 Occasional Reader

Just like Mussolini's mistress ("ooh, si, he so small, tee hee hee").

221 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:32:41pm

re: #218 opnion

Yeah, serve it with a six pack of beer as a sidedish.

I don't drink booze, and I was being serious.

222 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:32:42pm

re: #182 Boondock St. Bender

If i remember correctly that would be the first reich.

Yep - it was.
One of those Emperors, iirc, was highly taken with Saladin, and had lots of Arab people at his court. That was Frederic II, the Great (not the Prussian one, he was later). He wrote a fantastic book about falconry, iirc.

223 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:32:44pm

re: #186 Cato

Salamantis,

I think that is true. That is why I tell my 8 year old when he tells me how we should recycle that recycling laws were created as make-work projects for the Mafia. Nevertheless, I hate his lectures because the naive views of his teachers' do not comport with my worldview.

I can imagine a creationist family resenting their kid's tale of Darwin and resenting it as well. I think that makes me against public education.

I can also imagine a racist family resenting their kid's embrace of racial equality of rights and opportunities. Which is just as good a thing for the kid as is an acceptance of empirical science.

224 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:32:45pm

re: #212 Walter L. Newton
yes,
take can in hand
discard in trash.
order pizza.

225 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:32:48pm

re: #213 Occasional Reader

Do you get the feeling Hitler laughed himself silly every time he got off the phone with Mussolini?

You mean Mussolini or Neville Chamberlain ?

226 irongrampa  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:33:20pm

Kudos, Charles. Keep it going, please. You're starting (finally) to get some legs here.

Past time to put this issue to rest. You have my support, for what it's worth.

227 Bloodnok  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:33:24pm

re: #219 Sharmuta

OT: Hi! I called the Hamdard Center, and I will have more information tomorrow afternoon about how we can donate in Ms Parvez's honor.

Cool beans! Lemme know.

228 opnion  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:33:32pm

re: #221 Walter L. Newton

I don't drink booze, and I was being serious.

Ooook

229 HugoChavez  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:33:33pm

re: #221 Walter L. Newton

I don't drink booze, and I was being serious.

Of course you were, huevon.

230 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:33:39pm

re: #152 Charles

Well, write a post about it and I'll link it...

I should. Let's see if I can manage the time. There should be something I can add to the subject.

231 MPH  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:33:54pm

re: #160 Leonidas Hoplite

Anyone know where Newt stands on this?

From: [Link: discovermagazine.com...]

Do you view evolution as "just a theory" or as the best explanation for how we came to be?
Evolution certainly seems to express the closest understanding we can now have. But it's changing too. The current tree of life is not anything like a 19th-century Darwinian tree. We're learning a lot about how systems evolve and don't evolve. Cockroaches became successful several hundred million years ago and just stopped evolving.

Where do you come down on teaching intelligent design in schools? Do you think the ruling in the Dover, Pennsylvania, case was appropriate?
I believe evolution should be taught as science, and intelligent design should be taught as philosophy. Francis Collins's new book, The Language of God, is a fine statement that combines a belief in God with a belief in evolution. I do not know enough about the Dover case to critique the judge's decision, but I am generally cautious about unelected judges establishing community standards—that is the duty of elected officials.

Pretty standard straddling...but when you compromise with insanity for short term gain, insanity always wins.

Intelligent design isn't being promoted as "philosophy" -- it is being promoted (and taught) as an alternative to evolutionary theory.

232 Russkilitlover  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:33:59pm

re: #212 Walter L. Newton

OT -

Does anyone have any good recipes for Hormel Vienna Sausage?

You don't need a recipe - you can buy them already made at the store - ;-)

233 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:34:16pm

re: #220 WriterMom

Just like Mussolini's mistress ("ooh, si, he so small, tee hee hee").

Well since she was Jewish I would think it was more like "Oy vey so.....

234 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:34:27pm

re: #225 nevergiveup

You mean Neville Chamberlain or Ehud Olmert?

235 hazzyday  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:34:44pm

I like evangelicals. I am appalled at anyone who seriously believes in a young earth. My best friends are Baptists. I have to ask them sometime. We can get along, but will we after we each know the others definition of creationism? If I had a pastor that spouted off about a young earth, I would leave that congregation.

I think there is a Palin effect where people are afraid of evangelicals because at sometime they knew a religious person that couldn't be reasoned with. And all these ID folks come across as snake oil salesmen trying to make you see things their way while they make money off the unknowing.

Someone upthread wrote about Rommney and his response in the debates on evolution. That question is only going to get tougher for candidates.

I wrote Jindahl about this issue and never even received a form letter email back. A candidate that stands up clearly for evolution backed by creationism will be preferable to the candidate who wishes creationism to supplant evolution.

236 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:34:45pm

re: #196 HugoChavez

How can anyone resist those sexy Mickey boxers?

He may have Mickey Mouse boxers, but you've gone one further.

237 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:34:46pm

re: #221 Walter L. Newton

oops sorry walter...just trying to be funny...and like bill mahr failing miserably.

238 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:35:07pm

re: #233 nevergiveup

True. She hung with him IIRC, didn't she?

239 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:35:16pm

re: #217 SFGoth

Whenever I play Germany in Hearts of Iron, I invade Italy in early 1939. No one gives a shit. I take the top 1/3 pretty quickly and leave Italy with a rump state. Not very resource-rich and too much effort to police. But I get to invade France from the south east which makes it a breeze.

Umm, isn't it a breeze anyway?

240 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:35:27pm

re: #238 WriterMom

True. She hung with him IIRC, didn't she?

Yup

241 Annar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:35:31pm

re: #194 buzzsawmonkey

Steal pennies?

Does someone mean the 1943 pennies? It was steel coated with zinc.

242 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:35:35pm

Regarding litmus tests : They've always been here in the Republican party, it's just the SoCons and the DI Type think tanks that apply them. Turnabout is very fair play. Try to get on a Republican primary ballot in certain parts of Kansas without toeing the DI line if you don't believe me.

243 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:35:58pm

re: #222 yma o hyd
He got excommunicated a few times as i remember.

244 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:36:05pm

re: #221 Walter L. Newton

I don't drink booze, and I was being serious.

If you gotta do it, do in a sandwich w/mustard & maybe some potato salad...

245 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:36:17pm

re: #237 Boondock St. Bender

oops sorry walter...just trying to be funny...and like bill mahr failing miserably.

Gotcha!

246 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:36:18pm

re: #236 Occasional Reader

That cracks me up every time I see it. Classic.

247 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:37:16pm

re: #231 MPH

I contacted Newt about this months ago- I'm still waiting for an answer.

248 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:37:28pm

re: #244 brookly red

If you gotta do it, do in a sandwich w/mustard & maybe some potato salad...

Vienna Sausage proves creationism, because there is no why natural selection would let something like that to continue to exist.
/

249 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:38:04pm

re: #212 Walter L. Newton

OT -

Does anyone have any good recipes for Hormel Vienna Sausage?

Yes. Don't eat them.

250 Annar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:38:06pm

re: #241 Annar

It was --> They were

251 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:38:15pm

re: #245 Walter L. Newton

DOH!

252 irongrampa  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:38:57pm

re: #248 Walter L. Newton

Stop that, Walter. Where would us Bass fishermen be without them?

253 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:39:10pm

re: #248 Walter L. Newton

Vienna Sausage proves creationism, because there is no why natural selection would let something like that to continue to exist.
/

well after you eat it, it will evolve into something else....

254 Russkilitlover  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:39:29pm

re: #247 Sharmuta

I contacted Newt about this months ago- I'm still waiting for an answer.

That's a depressing thought.

255 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:39:36pm

re: #213 Occasional Reader

Do you get the feeling Hitler laughed himself silly every time he got off the phone with Mussolini?

Well, you do the comparison.

Poland vs. Albania
France vs. Ethiopia

256 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:39:42pm

BRB gotta pick up the little guy from school.I'll ask him what they did in science.....

257 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:39:46pm

re: #195 SFGoth

You don't see the irony in that? The coinage spells out god (God) yet many people find that offensive and spell it G-d, yet at the same time they have no problem with the phrase. I'd rather we get rid of it altogether before "God" becomes Allah.

No, I don't. Again, I think many people will not spell out "God" due to piety. We have plenty of Jewish Lizards; maybe one can help.

258 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:41:03pm

Leo DiCaprio gonna convert for Bar?

You heard it here first.

259 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:41:23pm

re: #243 Boondock St. Bender

He got excommunicated a few times as i remember.

I think that was his grandfather, actually, Henry IV.
There's a fascinating book about that aera, which will be published in the USA soon:
The Forge of Christendom: The End of Days and the Epic Rise of the West by Tom Holland
Here, it came out in November, with the Title 'Millenium'.
It explains a lot about the rise of the Papacy, and Kings like that Henry. Well worth reading.

260 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:41:47pm

Man U-0

Inter Milan-0

261 Cato  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:42:04pm

re: #223 Salamantis

Yes, there are racist families. But in my very libertarian view of the world, they are entitled to their views, no matter how much they suck.

262 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:42:06pm

re: #257 OldLineTexan

No, I don't. Again, I think many people will not spell out "God" due to piety. We have plenty of Jewish Lizards; maybe one can help.

I need help with understand the incomplete spelling of God by people I know who are Jewish but don't beleive in God.

263 avanti  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:42:13pm

O.T. Bought another Studebaker Avanti today, They are still sitting out there to be found. I usually find 2-3 a year,this one must be about my 30th I've bought and sold over the years. I hate to see them dirty and neglected, but she'll clean up nicely.
Avanti

264 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:42:21pm

re: #258 Ben Hur

Leo DiCaprio gonna convert for Bar?

If so, will he get a Bar Mitzvah?

265 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:42:25pm

re: #255 Honorary Yooper

Well, you do the comparison.

Poland vs. Albania
France vs. Ethiopia

Yeah maybe, but the German 6th Army wouldn't have frozen it's tukus off in Ethiopia?

266 Dianna  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:42:33pm

re: #170 Charles

Newt goes either way, depending on which audience he's speaking to.

Which is why I have never liked him.

267 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:42:37pm

It is American conservatism that is being defined down. For many years now, the left and its media allies have been delighted to conflate "conservative" with the "religious right." In popular culture, "conservative" and "Bible-thumping hypocrite" are virtually synonymous now. Creationist charlatans have taken full advantage and far too many otherwise secular and rational conservatives have been willing to play along for electoral advantage.

This has gone on for 30 years now and the game is up.

It is appropriate, of course, for people who call themselves conservative to look to the past for guidance. Unfortunately, many can see no further back than 1980 and Ronald Reagan's pragmatic alliance with what was then a new phenomenon, the media based "religious right" of televangelists like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. They need to go back another 20 years to the real roots of the movement, Barry Goldwater and Conscience of a Conservative. In many ways, Goldwater's libertarian principles were antithetical to the values of the religious right. The alliance of religious and political conservatism is little more than a linguistic coincidence, a shotgun wedding of incompatible ideologies. A divorce is long overdue.

268 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:42:46pm

re: #260 Ben Hur

Man U-0

Inter Milan-0

Ah, more gripping soccer excitement, I see.

/

269 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:42:47pm

re: #258 Ben Hur

Leo DiCaprio gonna convert for Bar?

You heard it here first.

How many points is that?
I know the kick is one, running or passing it in is two, what is this conversion for Bar?
/

270 UncleBuck  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:42:49pm

Hi y'all,spoke to commenter #163,and he said he couldn't care less that his account was deleted.

271 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:42:58pm

re: #258 Ben Hur

Leo DiCaprio gonna convert for Bar?

You heard it here first.

Is he, has he , or is he gonna ya know?

272 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:43:21pm

re: #231 MPH

Pretty standard straddling...but when you compromise with insanity for short term gain, insanity always wins.

Intelligent design isn't being promoted as "philosophy" -- it is being promoted (and taught) as an alternative to evolutionary theory.

I think that the cooler heads will prevail when teachers really start looking at this. I think Newt is right. ID will be put in its own category. Nothing is written in stone yet.

273 yma o hyd  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:43:33pm

Right. I have been given notice ... Madame Dog wants out ... gotta go, Lizards!
Seeya tomorrow, all being well.

Am looking forward to your thoughts on that PB0-speech ...

:-))

274 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:44:23pm

re: #267 Shiplord Kirel

It is American conservatism that is being defined down. For many years now, the left and its media allies have been delighted to conflate "conservative" with the "religious right." In popular culture, "conservative" and "Bible-thumping hypocrite" are virtually synonymous now. Creationist charlatans have taken full advantage and far too many otherwise secular and rational conservatives have been willing to play along for electoral advantage.

This has gone on for 30 years now and the game is up.

It is appropriate, of course, for people who call themselves conservative to look to the past for guidance. Unfortunately, many can see no further back than 1980 and Ronald Reagan's pragmatic alliance with what was then a new phenomenon, the media based "religious right" of televangelists like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. They need to go back another 20 years to the real roots of the movement, Barry Goldwater and Conscience of a Conservative. In many ways, Goldwater's libertarian principles were antithetical to the values of the religious right. The alliance of religious and political conservatism is little more than a linguistic coincidence, a shotgun wedding of incompatible ideologies. A divorce is long overdue.

I regret that I have but one upding to give for your fine post.

275 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:44:24pm

re: #249 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yes. Don't eat them.

Don't start crying to me about the poor viennas that were shot and sausage-ized!

//

276 Dianna  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:44:42pm

re: #176 SFGoth

I think that's a bit much.

277 Proximate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:44:45pm

re: #203 Salamantis

And the other one damages the future bioscience employment prospects of America's children, and, through costing us future cometent bioscientists, endangers the future national security and economic prosperity of the US

So our great and glorious future is in government jobs? I don't think so! Did anybody hear that warning that Putin gave?

“In the 20th century, the Soviet Union made the state’s role absolute,” Putin said during a speech at the opening ceremony of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. “In the long run, this made the Soviet economy totally uncompetitive. This lesson cost us dearly. I am sure nobody wants to see it repeated.”

Putin Warns US About Socialism

Eco-socialism will succeed where socialism failed, is that what you're saying?

278 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:44:46pm

re: #271 nevergiveup

Is he, has he , or is he gonna ya know?

According to my Italian source who saw it in the Italian media, he's "considering it."

Probably BS.

I'm sure she doesn't give a sh*t if he does.

279 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:44:59pm

re: #258 Ben Hur

Leo DiCaprio gonna convert for Bar?

You heard it here first.

I thought it's just not possible for gays to "convert" to hetero.

280 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:45:01pm

re: #270 UncleBuck

And we are supposed to care about that, why?

281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:46:04pm

re: #275 OldLineTexan

Don't start crying to me about the poor viennas that were shot and sausage-ized!

What the hell are they anyway?

282 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:46:22pm

re: #278 Ben Hur

I'm sure she doesn't give a sh*t if he does.

Nope. She's just using Leo to make me jealous, anyway.

283 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:46:48pm

re: #275 OldLineTexan

Don't start crying to me about the poor viennas that were shot and sausage-ized!

//

sausage-ized? do you have any idea what you have just done? LOL

284 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:46:53pm

I said during both conventions and the election that if the democrats were going to steal the issue of Fiscal Responsibility away from the republicans that we were doomed as a party. That is supposed to be our bread and butter.

So WTF is going on? This isn't the party of fiscal conservatism anymore. Were scratching our heads trying to figure out why. Well- a few voices are stepping up and telling you why!

And the talking point that we can't win without these RR folks- I must protest. The GOP loses every time they piss of the fisc-cons, and have since the days of Perot. So the hypothesis of needing them I utterly reject. They need us. And they best learn the art of compromise, because I've been more than accommodating over the years- I think it's their turn. Many of us are stating outright we will not put up with this anymore, and we're not bluffing.

285 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:46:59pm

OT - it is going to take quite a while to get out of this slump; Architect's billings hit all time low. This translates into unemployed construction workers a year later.

AIA news release

286 callahan23  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:47:07pm

re: #263 avanti

She'll be a beauty. Congratulations.

287 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:47:21pm

re: #278 Ben Hur

According to my Italian source who saw it in the Italian media, he's "considering it."

Probably BS.

I'm sure she doesn't give a sh*t if he does.

I think she will change her name to Beard Rafaeli

288 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:47:33pm

re: #281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What the hell are they anyway?

Potted meat that can stand up.

289 apachegunner  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:47:41pm

re: #212 Walter L. Newton

OT -

Does anyone have any good recipes for Hormel Vienna Sausage?


macroni, green peppers and onions

290 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:47:41pm

re: #239 Leonidas Hoplite

Umm, isn't it a breeze anyway?

Unfortunately, the designers didn't program in the historical result.

291 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:47:43pm

Do they make Vienna Sausage "Hot Pockets"?

They make vegetarian "Hot Pockets". As Jim Gaffigan said, for when you don't want the meat, but still want the diarrhea.

292 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:48:06pm

re: #287 Alouette

I think she will change her name to Beard Rafaeli

I'm sure she takes care of that completely.

293 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:48:54pm

Diplomats: Syria has put missile facility on bombed nuke site

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

OK I'm not exactly a Military Genius, but is this the best place to put a Missile Facility? I mean it's not like Israel forgot how to get there?

294 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:49:16pm

re: #267 Shiplord Kirel

In many ways, Goldwater's libertarian principles were antithetical to the values of the religious right.

Goldwater on the RR:

On religious issues there can be little or no compromise. There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both.
I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C" and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?
And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."

295 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:49:19pm

re: #257 OldLineTexan

No, I don't. Again, I think many people will not spell out "God" due to piety. We have plenty of Jewish Lizards; maybe one can help.

You're missing the point. Even the phrase itself is "unpious" to some believers. Why bother? The phrase was added during the Red Scare of the '50's as masturbatory patriotism.

296 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:49:28pm

Sold a kitchen today. Very wealthy lady, she was an absolute peach too.

Yay!

297 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:50:00pm

re: #293 nevergiveup

Diplomats: Syria has put missile facility on bombed nuke site

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

OK I'm not exactly a Military Genius, but is this the best place to put a Missile Facility? I mean it's not like Israel forgot how to get there?

Maybe they're thinking it's like the old "lightning doesn't strike twice in the same place" thing.

298 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:50:02pm

re: #293 nevergiveup

Diplomats: Syria has put missile facility on bombed nuke site

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

OK I'm not exactly a Military Genius, but is this the best place to put a Missile Facility? I mean it's not like Israel forgot how to get there?

They had what they thought were sufficient air defenses from Russia.

Until Israel jammed them and bombed the site.

Then the Iranians shat themselves because they bought them too.

299 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:50:02pm

re: #284 Sharmuta

The GOP is finished IMHO.

300 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:50:35pm

re: #280 CyanSnowHawk

And we are supposed to care about that, why?

THANK YOU! GMTA.

301 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:50:40pm

re: #196 HugoChavez

How can anyone resist those sexy Mickey boxers?

You're playing our song.

302 SummerSong  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:50:42pm

re: #285 Ojoe

OT - it is going to take quite a while to get out of this slump; Architect's billings hit all time low. This translates into unemployed construction workers a year later.

AIA news release

Has commercial real estate begun its meltdown?

303 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:50:49pm

re: #293 nevergiveup

Diplomats: Syria has put missile facility on bombed nuke site

OK I'm not exactly a Military Genius, but is this the best place to put a Missile Facility? I mean it's not like Israel forgot how to get there?

as I recall it was via Turkey... that route may be closed now.

304 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:50:57pm

Four more from Goldwater:

*Religious factions will go on imposing their will on others unless the decent people connected to them recognize that religion has no place in public policy. They must learn to make their views known without trying to make their views the only alternatives.

*When you say "radical right" today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party away from the Republican Party, and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye.

*Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

*I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass.

Hat tip: Slumbering Behemoth

305 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:51:04pm

re: #277 Proximate

So our great and glorious future is in government jobs? I don't think so! Did anybody hear that warning that Putin gave?

“In the 20th century, the Soviet Union made the state’s role absolute,” Putin said during a speech at the opening ceremony of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. “In the long run, this made the Soviet economy totally uncompetitive. This lesson cost us dearly. I am sure nobody wants to see it repeated.”

Putin Warns US About Socialism

Eco-socialism will succeed where socialism failed, is that what you're saying?

No, I'm saying that we'll be regally and royally screwed if a future creationism-in-public-schools-caused dearth of competent bioscientists renders us unable to quickly and effectively respond to a terrorist bioweapons attack. And that we would also be cut out of the economic bioscience game big-time when all of the innovations and discoveries in the field are made overseas, and the products, services and technologies are developed, manufactured, and sold there - instead of here. It would do grave damage to our ability to economically compete.

But go ahead and toss up bullshit socialist straw men when I'm talking capitalist competitive damade, dewde.

306 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:51:09pm

re: #295 SFGoth

You're missing the point. Even the phrase itself is "unpious" to some believers. Why bother? The phrase was added during the Red Scare of the '50's as masturbatory patriotism.

OK. I guess I missed your point. Next time, type real slow, because I can't read fast.

307 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:51:10pm

re: #11 Boondock St. Bender

got quiet in here....

for some unaccountable reason, some of us are expected to produce.

308 mikeymom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:51:27pm

hey--FBV--was it your wife that had the ultasound thingy done for kidney stones? if it was, could you e-mail me? hubby has a few questions for you! thanks

309 freetoken  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:51:30pm

re: #191 Teh Flowah

Unless a great deal of the majority answering affirmatively to the numerous polls about belief in creationism are simply non-voting Americans, I can't see this being an issue that hurts Republicans in any noticeable way.

There have been times when among church-goers the struggle over whether to get involved in politics has been debated.

Another thing to think about... the GOP=Religious Right meme does work against the GOP in so far as there is a large middle-vote out there.

It may not be so important in House votes... as the districts have become so gerrymandered that constituencies are well formed. But as we saw in the last GOP primary season, on the national level the question (over evolution) does get thrown into the mix of items on which the GOP candidates get to fall on their swords.

310 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:51:39pm

re: #296 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sold a kitchen today. Very wealthy lady, she was an absolute peach too.

Yay!

Husband dies of sticker shock in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

311 Buffoon  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:51:42pm

10000% agreed, BUT, I think we should ask the Scientologist before we come to any conclusions...
Just sayin.....
[Link: dequalss.com...]

312 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:51:44pm

re: #293 nevergiveup

Diplomats: Syria has put missile facility on bombed nuke site

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

OK I'm not exactly a Military Genius, but is this the best place to put a Missile Facility? I mean it's not like Israel forgot how to get there?

Maybe it depends on what kind of missile facility. If the Syrians put a SAM facility at the site, perhaps they are preparing to rebuild it?

313 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:51:44pm

re: #302 SummerSong

Not too much yet I think.

314 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:52:19pm

re: #307 Eowyn2

for some unaccountable reason, some of us are expected to produce.


Don't look at me . . . I already have 4 kids!

315 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:52:24pm

re: #303 brookly red

as I recall it was via Turkey... that route may be closed now.

there are many routes

316 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:53:04pm

re: #302 SummerSong

Has commercial real estate begun its meltdown?

No.

317 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:53:16pm

re: #312 Leonidas Hoplite

Maybe it depends on what kind of missile facility. If the Syrians put a SAM facility at the site, perhaps they are preparing to rebuild it?

Sam jam Spam

318 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:53:26pm

re: #296 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sold a kitchen today. Very wealthy lady, she was an absolute peach too.

Yay!

You might want to look at selling a whole house:)

319 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:53:30pm

re: #267 Shiplord Kirel

It is American conservatism that is being defined down. For many years now, the left and its media allies have been delighted to conflate "conservative" with the "religious right." In popular culture, "conservative" and "Bible-thumping hypocrite" are virtually synonymous now. Creationist charlatans have taken full advantage and far too many otherwise secular and rational conservatives have been willing to play along for electoral advantage.

This has gone on for 30 years now and the game is up.

It is appropriate, of course, for people who call themselves conservative to look to the past for guidance. Unfortunately, many can see no further back than 1980 and Ronald Reagan's pragmatic alliance with what was then a new phenomenon, the media based "religious right" of televangelists like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. They need to go back another 20 years to the real roots of the movement, Barry Goldwater and Conscience of a Conservative. In many ways, Goldwater's libertarian principles were antithetical to the values of the religious right. The alliance of religious and political conservatism is little more than a linguistic coincidence, a shotgun wedding of incompatible ideologies. A divorce is long overdue.

So you're ready to kick out some of the more staunch supportors of conservatism just because they have a belief in something in which you don't approve. I don't mind Charles keeping us up to date because the controversy doesn't scare me. What does bother me are people who seem troubled over what is happening in our government right now, but are willing to do exactly what the zero was being accused of during the campaign; throwing people under the bus for political expediency.

320 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:53:43pm
321 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:53:53pm

re: #295 SFGoth

You're missing the point. Even the phrase itself is "unpious" to some believers. Why bother? The phrase was added during the Red Scare of the '50's as masturbatory patriotism.

I thought that's what happened when a hetero guy sees that picture of Charisma Carpenter wrapped in the flag.
/Which I would provide a link for, but can't seem to find at the moment.

322 faraway  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:53:59pm

Ronald Reagan was a creationist

evolution is a theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science and is not yet believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was believed. But if it was going to be taught in the schools, then I think that also the biblical theory of creation, which is not a theory but the biblical story of creation, should also be taught

323 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:54:26pm

re: #312 Leonidas Hoplite

Maybe it depends on what kind of missile facility. If the Syrians put a SAM facility at the site, perhaps they are preparing to rebuild it?

yeah, that came to mind... can't help but think we might be paying for it some how.

324 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:55:16pm

re: #320 buzzsawmonkey

Spelling "God"

GOTCHA!

Yer goin' to Hell!

325 freetoken  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:55:23pm

re: #311 Buffoon

10000% agreed, BUT, I think we should ask the Scientologist before we come to any conclusions...
Just sayin.....
[Link: dequalss.com...]

Well, we could ask the scientologists about dowsing, too, no?


/they'd probably blame it on psychiatry.

326 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:55:28pm

Everyone who has been noticing that these fools all have a disdain for the constitution is correct.

The whole point of the Establishment Clause is to prevent the strife and backwards ways that follow from mixing religion and state. Too many people are secretly happy about seeing religion all over the state - provided it is their religion. The founding fathers knew that this could only lead to strife if it were allowed to happen.

All the other free citizens might want their religion instead to be forced on people. At the very least they might resent having another one forced on them.

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. The American ideal, and certainly, the conservative ideal is one of personal independence where I do not bother you and you do not bother me. Provided no one violates the law, no one complains. Religion is a personal choice. Our social contract is that I respect your right to that choice and that you respect mine.

This is not just a matter of the GOP tarnishing itself with bad science. It is a matter of the GOP turning its back on core American values and core conservative values.

327 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:56:03pm

re: #310 OldLineTexan

Husband dies of sticker shock in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

Nope! Already dead! Whoo Hoo!

328 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:56:17pm

re: #309 freetoken

When I go to church (off and on), the last thing I want to hear about is politics. Whenever I hear about politics in a church, I never go there anymore.

329 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:56:20pm
330 Proximate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:56:28pm

re: #305 Salamantis

But go ahead and toss up bullshit socialist straw men when I'm talking capitalist competitive damade, dewde.

My apologies for misinterpreting you.

331 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:56:34pm

re: #320 buzzsawmonkey

Actually, writing "G-d" is used because any object that has G-d's name written in it must be treated with respect. It cannot be thrown out, for example. It has to be properly buried. Thus, when writing a Torah or a prayerbook, the full word is written, but when writing casually, it is not, lest the place it is written need to be carefully handled, and buried.

332 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:56:35pm

re: #327 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nope! Already dead! Whoo Hoo!

You are so going to Hell . . .

333 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:56:42pm

re: #327 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nope! Already dead! Whoo Hoo!

What does she need a kitchen for, with money, and no man to feed?

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:57:17pm

re: #308 mikeymom

hey--FBV--was it your wife that had the ultasound thingy done for kidney stones? if it was, could you e-mail me? hubby has a few questions for you! thanks

Yeah. Can't get the email thingy to work.

Lithotripsy. Easy. Went exactly as they told us. Very little discomfort. Pee sand for a few days. Done.

EXPENSIVE AS HELL! But worth it.

335 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:57:22pm
336 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:57:45pm

re: #319 Soona'

So you're ready to kick out some of the more staunch supportors of conservatism just because they have a belief in something in which you don't approve. I don't mind Charles keeping us up to date because the controversy doesn't scare me. What does bother me are people who seem troubled over what is happening in our government right now, but are willing to do exactly what the zero was being accused of during the campaign; throwing people under the bus for political expediency.

I don't care wtf they believe in; I draw my uncrossable line when they demand to abuse the machinery of the state in order to pour whatever it is they believe in into the young and trusting minds of everybody else's kids in public schools as if it were fact.

People who insist on this DESERVE to be marginalized.

337 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:58:14pm

re: #333 OldLineTexan

What does she need a kitchen for, with money, and no man to feed?

////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////

Where else is she gonna stand while barefoot and pregnant?

*ducks*

338 The_Vig  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:58:18pm

This is a great point. Everyone has their qualification for a candidate they support. One of mine is that they will speak plainly and honestly about science. From global warming to evolution. This is very important to me. I will not support a politician that interprets the Bible literally....which leads to young earth creationism or someone that panders to those that do.

The big question for me is about Sarah Palin. Where does she stand. I would really like a clarification, and not by the msm, but from her. What is her stand?

339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:58:35pm

re: #332 Wyatt Earp

You are so going to Hell . . .

Yeah, I know. 60% of my business is from recently widowed women who have wanted a new kitchen for years and who's husbands stopped them.

340 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:58:58pm

re: #335 buzzsawmonkey

Yes indeed, forgot to mention that. Thanks for the supplement.

So you'd better hope your #320 doesn't get deleted. Or else Charles is going to Hell with you.

341 mikeymom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:59:03pm

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

did they give her anesthesia? hubby's stone is very small, but giving him trouble nonetheless..thanks

342 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:59:08pm

re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah, I know. 60% of my business is from recently widowed women who have wanted a new kitchen for years and who's husbands stopped them.

NOW I know why she's trying to kill me!

/

343 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:59:19pm

re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah, I know. 60% of my business is from recently widowed women who have wanted a new kitchen for years and who's husbands stopped them.

Good way to meet a nice MILF, too.

Yeah, I know - I'll meet you down there. It's a dry heat.

344 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:59:23pm

re: #322 faraway

Ronald Reagan was a creationist

He also turned tail and ran out of Lebanon. He did a lot of things right, but he was not perfect.

And he never tried to force creationism into public high school science classes.

345 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:59:24pm
346 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:59:42pm

re: #331 Kosh's Shadow

Actually, writing "G-d" is used because any object that has G-d's name written in it must be treated with respect. It cannot be thrown out, for example. It has to be properly buried. Thus, when writing a Torah or a prayerbook, the full word is written, but when writing casually, it is not, lest the place it is written need to be carefully handled, and buried.

You are of course correct. However, I always thought that writing G-d was a bit of a Chumrah (stringency) since the word "god" is of a non-Hebrew origin and is not one of the Names.

347 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:00:00pm

re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah, I know. 60% of my business is from recently widowed women who have wanted a new kitchen for years and who's husbands stopped them.

Hmm. Has anyone looked into the circumstances surrounding these husbands' deaths?

348 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:00:40pm
349 Proximate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:01:00pm

re: #336 Salamantis

I don't care wtf they believe in; I draw my uncrossable line when they demand to abuse the machinery of the state in order to pour whatever it is they believe in into the young and trusting minds of everybody else's kids in public schools as if it were fact.

Then do you support vouchers? That would end the argument. Conservatism is all about freedom, after all.

350 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:01:07pm

re: #338 The_Vig

This is a great point. Everyone has their qualification for a candidate they support. One of mine is that they will speak plainly and honestly about science. From global warming to evolution. This is very important to me. I will not support a politician that interprets the Bible literally....which leads to young earth creationism or someone that panders to those that do.

The big question for me is about Sarah Palin. Where does she stand. I would really like a clarification, and not by the msm, but from her. What is her stand?

It comes down to integrity for me. Just quite the pandering so damn much. This goes for everyone in all political parties. Speak plainly, indeed.

351 Dianna  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:01:08pm

re: #322 faraway

Ronald Reagan was a creationist

Reagan was a politician. In the 1970's and 1980's, one could straddle the creation/evolution debate without much effort, and he did. On a great many present-day hot buttons, Reagan performed as a virtuoso. He claimed to be pro-life. He signed California's very liberal abortion law without a fuss. He did a whole bunch of things that, were he actually half of what is claimed of him, he would not have done.

352 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:01:09pm

re: #326 LudwigVanQuixote

The whole point of the Establishment Clause is to prevent the strife and backwards ways that follow from mixing religion and state.

They have an incredibly poor grasp of European and British history.

353 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:01:11pm

re: #347 Occasional Reader

Hmm. Has anyone looked into the circumstances surrounding these husbands' deaths?

They most often fell backwards onto old, cheap steak knives. As many as twenty-four times. Wyatt is investigating all cases where the widow is under 35.

354 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:01:15pm

re: #347 Occasional Reader

Hmm. Has anyone looked into the circumstances surrounding these husbands' deaths?

Getting a search warrant for FBV's house as we speak . . .

355 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:01:45pm

re: #347 Occasional Reader

Hmm. Has anyone looked into the circumstances surrounding these husbands' deaths?

Likely caused by food prepared in old kitchens.

356 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:01:57pm

re: #353 OldLineTexan

They most often fell backwards onto old, cheap steak knives. As many as twenty-four times. Wyatt is investigating all cases where the widow is under 35.

Hey, it's a dirty sexy job, but someone's gotta do it!

357 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:01:58pm

re: #331 Kosh's Shadow

I never understood that, G-d is a title, not a name. The name used in the Torah (which I won't mention here) is a name. My dissconect is with the concern of the use of the title, not the name. If that makes sense.

358 Spenser (with an S)  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:02:01pm

It may surprise many Christians to know that, at the turn of the 19th century as the dinosaurs bones were being discovered, fundamentalist Christians were not shocked or threatened by the thought that the world was now obviously millions of years old. The change came about when, after Darwin, some scientists used Darwin as he had never intended; to say "See, your God is imaginary". This nonsense led to a tragic over-reaction and pulling back from science by many Christians and we have not recovered yet.

359 faraway  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:02:03pm

re: #322 faraway

Ronald Reagan was a creationist

Sharmuta, are you saying that you are not a creationist if you say "the biblical story of creation, should also be taught"? Please clarify.

360 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:02:14pm

re: #342 OldLineTexan

NOW I know why she's trying to kill me!

/


If it wasn't for a new kitchen, it would be for something else...

361 summergurl  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:02:21pm

re: #337 Wyatt Earp

Where else is she gonna stand while barefoot and pregnant?

*ducks*

Earp - you surprise me.

362 cronus  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:02:34pm

I don't know if Jim Manzi is a blogger but I would submit this piece as well.

At a tactical political level, debating a fundamental scientific finding as if it were a political issue is off-putting to a large part of the American electorate, and appropriately so. This conflict became a serious issue in the 2008 Republican presidential primaries, and in the longer term will likely impact the ability of conservatives to build governing coalitions. When, in the first Republican presidential debate, the nine candidates were asked to stand if they believe in evolution, six of them did — including Romney, McCain, and Giuliani. Looking to the general election, these first-tier candidates surely realized that opposing the theory of evolution would be an embarrassment with moderate, disproportionately Catholic, swing voters. The three candidates who indicated that they don’t accept evolution — Huckabee, Brownback, and Tancredo — were each looking to become the social-conservative standard-bearer, and presumably needed to worry about getting into contention for the Republican nomination.

363 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:02:52pm

re: #360 Leonidas Hoplite

If it wasn't for a new kitchen, it would be for something else...

I see that you know her.

364 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:02:52pm

re: #334 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah. Can't get the email thingy to work.

Lithotripsy. Easy. Went exactly as they told us. Very little discomfort. Pee sand for a few days. Done.

EXPENSIVE AS HELL! But worth it.

Good thing you got it now before 0bamacare. Those bureaucrats won't think it is cost effective, unless they have to deal with the pain.

365 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:02:58pm

re: #347 Occasional Reader

Hmm. Has anyone looked into the circumstances surrounding these husbands' deaths?

It is almost 18th century the way some households work. I did a kitchen last March for a lady who's husband died at the end of February.

He had stopped her from purchasing new hardware (knobs) for the doors because they were 6.00 each. She dropped over $20,000.00 less than a month after he died.

366 Summer Seale  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:03:05pm

re: #25 Honorary Yooper

The commentors, but not Allahpundit. Allah really needs to start the bannings.

Yea, the only reason I usually read Hot Air is because I really like Allahpundit. He's totally a great guy.

BTW, I couldn't figure out why HugoChavez and Ward Cleaver dinged my #19 down...

Then I read HugoChavez's comments and I understand. Not sure about Ward, but that's okay. Hugo sounds like a total asshole...so I understand.

Not sure about Ward tho, but whatever. =)

367 summergurl  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:03:15pm

re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah, I know. 60% of my business is from recently widowed women who have wanted a new kitchen for years and who's husbands stopped them.

Well mine didn't, so I guess he gets to live (looking lovingly at new cabinets and appliances)

368 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:03:19pm

re: #361 summergurl

Earp - you surprise me.

Just a joke, dear. Besides, I spent my college years working in a deli. I do a lot of the cooking at the Earp Ranch. :)

369 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:03:21pm

re: #361 summergurl

Earp - you surprise me.

The guy has four kids. I don't think his hobby involves stamps.

370 Miles Smit  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:03:41pm

Charles, are you equally committed to having evolution taught bereft of any undue metaphysical implications? I think you should be. Right now, it is often taught as an appendage to materialism, which is besides the point.

I am a Roman Catholic, and a scientifically-literate laymen. From that standpoint, neither Young Earth Creationism (specifically) and Dawkinsian/Darwinian ideology have no claim to the biology classroom. I think this is a mainstream position. Certainly Intelligent Design and Materialism would make EXCELLENT components of a Natural Philosophy class, if our schools taught such stuff.

371 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:03:49pm
372 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:04:10pm

re: #322 faraway

Ronald Reagan was a creationist

Ronald Reagan was a Christian.

I get pissed off, as a Christian, being lumped in with flat-earth moon goddess worshipping creationists.

373 ckb  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:04:18pm

Question for Charles:

How would you feel about a candidate who is an admitted "young earth" creationist but equally vocal about its religious underpinnings and keeping it out of school? Does the answer change for an "old earth" creationist?

Might be purely academic but you never know...

374 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:04:21pm

re: #367 summergurl

Yay! Lucky you.

375 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:04:44pm

re: #353 OldLineTexan

They most often fell backwards onto old, cheap steak knives.

There are many husbands who are pretty badly-off, but those guys are without doubt the wüsthof.

376 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:04:52pm

re: #372 A Kiwi Infidel


Oh, and I got my dings and my dongs mixed up, in case you noticed.

377 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:05:02pm

re: #191 Teh Flowah

Anyone who's read my posts here about this topic knows my stance, but again, I must restate:

Unless a great deal of the majority answering affirmatively to the numerous polls about belief in creationism are simply non-voting Americans, I can't see this being an issue that hurts Republicans in any noticeable way. Which isn't to say that the issue shouldn't be targeted by Republicans as a plank that the party should in no way support or be affiliated with. But it should be done so because it is bad logic and not poor polling(even though its not poor polling..)

Polling can be skewed any way you want it to be skewed just by the type of question asked. the pro-choice crowd has, for years, polled people with questions like "do you think a woman has the right to control her own body." Naturally the unaware will answer "yes" so all of a sudden a 'poll' shows up with 80% of people think a woman has a right to an abortion.

"Do you believe in a Supreme Being" can be 'polled' as the belief of wanting Creationism taught in the classroom.

I do think the Rep party should fight ALL religious activities in science class. I do, however, believe that different religious ideologies should be discussed in current events, geography/social studies, history etc. To simply state the Pilgrims came to the Americas and not give the objective lesson of religious persecution does all an injustice. To discuss the Israel/Palestinian war without regard to the religious teachings of Jews vs Muslims produces nothing but St Pancakes.

378 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:05:38pm

Preacher being interviewed by a Church's Pastoral Search Committee was asked, "Do you believe in Creationism or Evolution?"

He answered, "Hell, I can preach it either way. What do y'all want?"

379 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:06:01pm

re: #351 Dianna

It was Goldwater himself who watched the speech of Reagan's on tape and got it aired on television

Televised Nationwide Address on Behalf of Senator Barry Goldwater

380 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:06:13pm

re: #357 brookly red

I never understood that, G-d is a title, not a name. The name used in the Torah (which I won't mention here) is a name. My dissconect is with the concern of the use of the title, not the name. If that makes sense.

In this case, I think the requirements of the Hebrew have been applied to the translation. Note that "god" is OK, as it does not refer to Him.

381 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:06:20pm

re: #370 Miles Smit

Right now, it is often taught as an appendage to materialism

Source, please.

382 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:06:31pm

re: #369 OldLineTexan

The guy has four kids. I don't think his hobby involves stamps.

It does involve "stamping," though. Heh.

383 Gang of One  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:06:35pm

Truth to tell, I don't get too involved in these threads as they tend to get rather racy. But I must admit that if the Republican party is going to go for a philosophy over a theory and push it as science, then the Republican party has lost me. I have no qualms that there are believers and creationists in the party. I just can't accept an agenda that would push this non-science as science in a public school ... or anyehere else. It is blatant preaching and goes against what I thought were not only core principles of our Constitution, but of the Republican party.
Keep exposing this to fresh, shining light, Charles.

384 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:06:39pm

re: #326 LudwigVanQuixote

Everyone who has been noticing that these fools all have a disdain for the constitution is correct.

The whole point of the Establishment Clause is to prevent the strife and backwards ways that follow from mixing religion and state. Too many people are secretly happy about seeing religion all over the state - provided it is their religion. The founding fathers knew that this could only lead to strife if it were allowed to happen.

All the other free citizens might want their religion instead to be forced on people. At the very least they might resent having another one forced on them.

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. The American ideal, and certainly, the conservative ideal is one of personal independence where I do not bother you and you do not bother me. Provided no one violates the law, no one complains. Religion is a personal choice. Our social contract is that I respect your right to that choice and that you respect mine.

This is not just a matter of the GOP tarnishing itself with bad science. It is a matter of the GOP turning its back on core American values and core conservative values.

It's not even been introduced to most schools yet, but still you know exactly what will happen. I do wonder about just who might be in the consevative minority. Seems there are many people out there who don't mind this happening. Maybe more than some of the people here realize.

385 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:07:00pm

re: #270 UncleBuck

Hi y'all,spoke to commenter #163,and he said he couldn't care less that his account was deleted.

Well, it's not like we will particularly miss their scathing commentary and rapier wit...

/hates drama queens...

386 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:07:44pm

re: #376 A Kiwi Infidel

Oh, and I got my dings and my dongs mixed up, in case you noticed.

That doesn't seem to be an easy thing to do.

up dings and down dings are very different from up dongs and down dongs.

387 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:07:45pm

re: #349 Proximate

Then do you support vouchers? That would end the argument. Conservatism is all about freedom, after all.

No, because financially subsidizing parents who enroll their children in religious schools is an unconstitutional entanglement of church and state, prohibited by the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment.

But this tack come up a lot; it is the Disco Institute's fallback position. If they cannot selectively destroy US public high school science education, they'll happily settle for dismantling the US public educational system in its entirety, because that would provide them with a much wider field in which they can indoctrinate many more of America's youth into theocratic ideals, in the hopes that when they get to voting age, they will not only raze empirical science to the ground and erect their religious dogma temple in its place, but also shitcan the US Constitution and replace it with the Bible. That's their ultimate goal; to morph our constitutional democracy into a theocratic totalistarianism - a fundamentalist Christian version of Saudi Arabia or Iran.

388 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:08:52pm

re: #320 buzzsawmonkey

Spelling "God" as "G-d" is a convention that carries over into English the Jewish practice of not pronouncing the Name of G-d in any direct manner. The Tetragrammaton which some people insist on pronouncing or spelling as "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" is never pronounced; tradition has it that it was only pronounced by the High Priest (Kohen Gadol) on Yom Kippur, and that the proper pronunciation has been lost. Instead, various euphemisms are used; "HaShem" ("the Name") is the most common. When "Elohim" is used outside of the context of actual prayer, Orthodox Jews will intentionally mispronounce it as "Elokim" for the same reason.

Why do Jews who do not believe in G-d still continue this convention? Probably because it is a convention, which, if learned early and deeply enough, feels strange to abandon. By the same token, many Jews who do not keep kosher still do not eat mixed milk and meat dishes like cheeseburgers; they may well eat something overtly treif like bacon or shellfish, but the milk/meat mixture just doesn't "sit right." Or they may take lemon instead of milk in their tea because they were brought up with this vestigial remnant of kashrut and the other doesn't "taste right."

Actually it is not the Tetragammaton that was pronounced on Yom Kippur according to many rabbaim, but rather a much longer kabbalistic Name.

The reason for the care with the name has the following roots:

1. Kids answer: you don't call your father, a king or a president by their first name.

2. Intermediate answer: Naming something is putting a classification and a boundary on something. Contained within the act of naming, one believes that they have a full picture in their mind. We do not say the Name because it is a reminder that G-d defines you and you do not define Him and a remider that He does not have bounds that conform to your intellect.

3. Deep woojy answer: It is a statement of Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem. Hashem defines the universe. If you could honestly name Him, i.e. "see his face" note Moshe Rabbenu's request - would mean that you see Him from outside of Him and that you have left the set that defines you. Hence you would cease to exist. This is a deep statement of the idea that the universe is contained within Hashem.

389 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:09:42pm

re: #387 Salamantis

financially subsidizing parents who enroll their children in religious schools is an unconstitutional entanglement of church and state, prohibited by the Establishment Clause

As a legal proposition, that's highly debatable. By the same logic, ANY government cash subsidy or rebate violates the Establishment Clause, since it might (in theory) wind up in a church collection basket.

390 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:10:17pm

re: #387 Salamantis

No, because financially subsidizing parents who enroll their children in religious schools is an unconstitutional entanglement of church and state, prohibited by the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment.

Except it's their tax dollars. Just sayin'.

391 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:10:36pm

re: #336 Salamantis

I don't care wtf they believe in; I draw my uncrossable line when they demand to abuse the machinery of the state in order to pour whatever it is they believe in into the young and trusting minds of everybody else's kids in public schools as if it were fact.

People who insist on this DESERVE to be marginalized.

But if you think about it, that's exactly what the "state" has been doing in our public schools since their inception, with all subject matter.

392 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:10:38pm

re: #386 CyanSnowHawk

That doesn't seem to be an easy thing to do.

up dings and down dings are very different from up dongs and down dongs.


I'm a Kiwi, from down under, up dings and down dales, dinging the dong number, it happens.....

393 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:11:38pm
394 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:11:59pm

faraway-

I dinged you down because so far that's the only quote of Reagan's on evolution that I've seen. He said that in front of a group of evangelicals in Texas. I think he may have been pandering to his audience, as it's a politician's standard MO. I need something more substantial than this one quote to convince me that Reagan was the creationist you're portraying him as.

395 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:12:39pm

re: #388 LudwigVanQuixote

and a remider that He does not have bounds that conform to your intellect.

And we know that... how, exactly? (Asks the atheist)

396 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:12:42pm

re: #393 buzzsawmonkey

Excellent points, all.

And I'll just shut up and slink away now.


Oh no, not my intent... we like you come back!

397 SFGoth  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:12:45pm

re: #380 Kosh's Shadow

In this case, I think the requirements of the Hebrew have been applied to the translation. Note that "god" is OK, as it does not refer to Him.

Or Her.

398 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:13:09pm

re: #370 Miles Smit

Charles, are you equally committed to having evolution taught bereft of any undue metaphysical implications? I think you should be. Right now, it is often taught as an appendage to materialism, which is besides the point.

I am a Roman Catholic, and a scientifically-literate laymen. From that standpoint, neither Young Earth Creationism (specifically) and Dawkinsian/Darwinian ideology have no claim to the biology classroom. I think this is a mainstream position. Certainly Intelligent Design and Materialism would make EXCELLENT components of a Natural Philosophy class, if our schools taught such stuff.

"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
Theodore Dobzhansky

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

399 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:13:54pm

Crap... Beck has Luap NoR on....

400 Dragonwolf  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:13:58pm

re: #39 dentate

Yes, it is a litmus test, but not about political beliefs. It is a litmus test of rational thinking and membership in the modern world of educated and intelligent people.

But don't liberals evaluate intelligence according to how high you rise in politics. After all, look at Gore. Vice Pres and they believe he invented the internet and can singlehandedly lead us out of the valley of global warming.

401 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:14:40pm

re: #395 Occasional Reader

And we know that... how, exactly? (Asks the atheist)


In terms of know we do not. If however, you believe in the Jewish definition of Hashem and how He works, then this follows.

I can not prove my religion. I would not try. I do believe it.

402 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:14:44pm

re: #388 LudwigVanQuixote

That's deep. Thanks.

403 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:14:48pm

re: #399 Thanos

Actually, Ron is a good interview. Notice they stay away from the nutty uncle stuff tho.

404 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:14:56pm

re: #388 LudwigVanQuixote

The full Name of G-d, kabbalistically, has power. The founder of Chassidism, Israel Baal Shem Tov, is called the Baal Shem Tov (Master of the Holy Name) because he was given that name and the necessary information to use it.

405 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:15:06pm

re: #395 Occasional Reader

And we know that... how, exactly? (Asks the atheist)

He is often defined as omniscient. Taken as an article of faith.

/Just why, exactly, does God need a spaceship?

406 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:15:26pm

Gotta run! Y'all have fun.

Well... I won't actually... uh... run...

407 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:15:29pm

re: #387 Salamantis

No, because financially subsidizing parents who enroll their children in religious schools is an unconstitutional entanglement of church and state, prohibited by the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment.

I support vouchers even for religious schools, because the voucher should be a return of the household's portion of the local school tax levy. It's their money being returned to them- at least that is, imo, how a voucher system should be established.

408 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:15:35pm

re: #397 SFGoth

Or Her.

And again... I have no god in this fight, etc.... but trying to gender-type God, as either male or female, is an exercise I find comically baffling.

How is an allegedly incorporeal, infinite, supernatural being either idenitfiably "male" or "female"?

409 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:15:42pm

re: #370 Miles Smit

Charles, are you equally committed to having evolution taught bereft of any undue metaphysical implications? I think you should be. Right now, it is often taught as an appendage to materialism, which is besides the point.

I am a Roman Catholic, and a scientifically-literate laymen. From that standpoint, neither Young Earth Creationism (specifically) and Dawkinsian/Darwinian ideology have no claim to the biology classroom. I think this is a mainstream position. Certainly Intelligent Design and Materialism would make EXCELLENT components of a Natural Philosophy class, if our schools taught such stuff.

Bunk. While Dawkins may be a twit on his ideas about philosophy and God, his research is solid. Dawrinism is not an ideology in the least, in fact, the better term to use is evolutionary theory, and that is extrememly valid, and has nothing what-so-ever to do with any ideologies or is materialistic. If anything, one could claim that ID is very materialistic due to its tendency to codify in text what God can be, and God cannot be.

You may want to double check what the Church has to say about ID and evolutionary theory as well. It might just surpise you.

410 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:15:51pm

re: #365 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It is almost 18th century the way some households work. I did a kitchen last March for a lady who's husband died at the end of February.

He had stopped her from purchasing new hardware (knobs) for the doors because they were 6.00 each. She dropped over $20,000.00 less than a month after he died.

He didnt want her fiddling with anyone else's knobs.

411 zombie  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:16:04pm

Newbie question of he century:

How does one find out what "operating system" a Windows computer is using? And secondly, how much RAM it has?

I know next to nothing about Windows computers, but I'm helping someone who knows absolutely nothing, and my task is to find out what version of Windows the computer is running on. But I have no idea where to begin! Help!

412 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:16:11pm
413 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:16:42pm

re: #389 Occasional Reader

As a legal proposition, that's highly debatable. By the same logic, ANY government cash subsidy or rebate violates the Establishment Clause, since it might (in theory) wind up in a church collection basket.

But this would be for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of payment to religious schools. Big difference with discretionary refunds there.

414 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:16:49pm

Am I allowed to announce that today my wife and I celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary?

It hasnt been easy with plenty of strains mixed with great times, 3 fantastic kids, we are pushing on. Those words of Churchill are appropriate, "Never give up, never, never, never give up"

415 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:17:03pm

re: #405 CyanSnowHawk

/Just why, exactly, does God need a spaceship?

Or, to follow on to my #408, Kirk could have asked: Why does God need a spaceship with a Men's toilet?

416 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:17:19pm

re: #406 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gotta run! Y'all have fun.

Well... I won't actually... uh... run...


Walk?, A gentle stroll, even?

417 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:17:22pm

re: #399 Thanos

Crap... Beck has Luap NoR on....

I just caught the end. What did they talk about?

418 Dianna  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:17:24pm

re: #408 Occasional Reader

And again... I have no god in this fight, etc.... but trying to gender-type God, as either male or female, is an exercise I find comically baffling.

How is an allegedly incorporeal, infinite, supernatural being either idenitfiably "male" or "female"?

Yes.

419 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:17:45pm

re: #401 LudwigVanQuixote

In terms of know we do not. If however, you believe in the Jewish definition of Hashem and how He works, then this follows.

I can not prove my religion. I would not try. I do believe it.

Your answer is honest, I will certainly concede that. But my question hits on (part of) why I'm an atheist.

420 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:18:03pm

re: #411 zombie

Newbie question of he century:

How does one find out what "operating system" a Windows computer is using? And secondly, how much RAM it has?

I know next to nothing about Windows computers, but I'm helping someone who knows absolutely nothing, and my task is to find out what version of Windows the computer is running on. But I have no idea where to begin! Help!

Start: Control panel
(Vista has a Windows logo circle instead of Start)
Double-click on System.
The tabs in that dialog have all the information.

421 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:18:06pm
422 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:18:08pm

re: #402 brookly red

That's deep. Thanks.

you are welcome!

423 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:18:12pm

re: #408 Occasional Reader

And again... I have no god in this fight, etc.... but trying to gender-type God, as either male or female, is an exercise I find comically baffling.

How is an allegedly incorporeal, infinite, supernatural being either idenitfiably "male" or "female"?

Does my being married once to the eternal bitch help you any?
/

424 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:18:45pm

re: #412 buzzsawmonkey

Good point.

OTOH- I'm not interested in revisionist history and deceptive portrayals of past Presidents as something they weren't- and that was my objection, and thus my dingdown. 'faraway' asked for clarification, and I stated my opinion.

425 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:18:48pm

re: #414 A Kiwi Infidel

Am I allowed to announce that today my wife and I celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary?

It hasnt been easy with plenty of strains mixed with great times, 3 fantastic kids, we are pushing on. Those words of Churchill are appropriate, "Never give up, never, never, never give up"

Congratulations!

426 Dianna  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:18:58pm

re: #411 zombie

Newbie question of he century:

How does one find out what "operating system" a Windows computer is using? And secondly, how much RAM it has?

I know next to nothing about Windows computers, but I'm helping someone who knows absolutely nothing, and my task is to find out what version of Windows the computer is running on. But I have no idea where to begin! Help!

Open My Computer and click on "properties"?

427 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:19:21pm

re: #421 buzzsawmonkey

I'm sorry, but you can only use the Express Purpose if you have ten commandments or less.

ROFLMAO!

428 Proximate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:19:24pm

.re: #387 Salamantis

No, because financially subsidizing parents who enroll their children in religious schools is an unconstitutional entanglement of church and state, prohibited by the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment.

Huh.

Well, there's not much future in conservatism then, because the schools have become very politicized, particularly here in California. And if libs have our kids for 8 hours a day, and the media much of the rest, there's really no point in trying to reform the GOP. Might as well learn to love Big Brother.

I'm an ardent defender of evolution, but also an ardent lover of freedom. You're obviously willing to put more limits on freedom than I am. I'd just as soon stop all government school funding period, vouchers included, than keep the liberal-thought-factories we've got.

429 zombie  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:19:28pm

Wait, I think I found it!

430 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:19:32pm

re: #419 Occasional Reader

Your answer is honest, I will certainly concede that. But my question hits on (part of) why I'm an atheist.


And to bring us back on topic, that is your Constitutionally protected right!

431 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:19:35pm

re: #413 Salamantis

But this would be for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of payment to religious schools. Big difference with discretionary refunds there.

It would be for the express purpose of applying toward school tuition; the nature of that school would be decided by the parents. Could be a religious school, or not. Just as the $100 tax rebate might go toward the collection basket, or might go toward buying beer.

432 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:19:52pm

re: #425 MandyManners


Thank you!

433 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:19:54pm

re: #417 MandyManners

I just caught the end. What did they talk about?

It was Luap NOr... I turned it off

434 Caboose  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:20:24pm

re: #86 HugoChavez

Oh I can get all worked up and sweaty over and issue like anyone else, especially a little red manual on "69". Care to help me try it out oh, hot, white conservative woman?

Hey, lookie there! Ol' Hugo got him some condoms with the Venezuelan Constitution printed on them! Gonna do to the country what he does to Cindy She-man! Ewwwwwww.... Watch for 0bama to do the same as his hero...

435 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:20:39pm

re: #421 buzzsawmonkey

I'm sorry, but you can only use the Express Purpose if you have ten commandments or lessfewer.

(There must be something in Leviticus about this... there simply must be)

436 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:20:40pm

re: #414 A Kiwi Infidel

Am I allowed to announce that today my wife and I celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary?

It hasnt been easy with plenty of strains mixed with great times, 3 fantastic kids, we are pushing on. Those words of Churchill are appropriate, "Never give up, never, never, never give up"


Mazel Tov!

437 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:20:40pm

re: #391 Soona'

But if you think about it, that's exactly what the "state" has been doing in our public schools since their inception, with all subject matter.

No, the teaching of knowledge is education; the inculcation of dogma is indoctrination.

Evolutionary theory is sound, valid and solid empirical science, as evidence-supported as it gets. It cannot in any way, shape, manner or form be credibly equated with religious dogma, which lacks a single shred of supportinfg empirical evidence.

But creationists try, every damn time.

438 zombie  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:20:57pm

re: #420 Kosh's Shadow

Start: Control panel
(Vista has a Windows logo circle instead of Start)
Double-click on System.
The tabs in that dialog have all the information.

That didn't work -- couldn't find the word "System" using your method -=- but I found it by clicking on "Control Panel" and then clicking them all until the info appeared.

439 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:21:13pm

I wonder what will happen to this Iranian girl or her father?
a young girl told viewers that her father called her stuffed monkey 'Ahmadinejad'

440 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:21:13pm

re: #433 Thanos

It was Luap NOr... I turned it off

Has he been a Paulian in the past?

441 freetoken  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:21:25pm

re: #358 Spenser (with an S)

Darwin's own contemplations on that issue would say otherwise... in other words, even he knew full well the social unacceptability of his research in religious circles.

442 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:21:41pm

re: #406 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gotta run! Y'all have fun.

Well... I won't actually... uh... run...

walk slowly and carry plenty of water.

443 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:21:48pm

re: #414 A Kiwi Infidel

Am I allowed to announce that today my wife and I celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary?

It hasnt been easy with plenty of strains mixed with great times, 3 fantastic kids, we are pushing on. Those words of Churchill are appropriate, "Never give up, never, never, never give up"

Congrats and well done, if it's your 25th, what the heck are you doing here? Want to make it to your 26th ? :)

444 zombie  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:21:55pm

And the answer is: something called "Vista"! Huzzah!

445 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:21:57pm
446 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:22:15pm

re: #433 Thanos

It was Luap NOr... I turned it off


Who the heck is Luap NOr? Is he really the Luap Nor, inventor of the telekinetic howitzer, the grandmaster of the Nosferatu Illuminati Templars, a secret society so powerful most people have never even heard of it.

447 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:22:41pm

re: #408 Occasional Reader

And again... I have no god in this fight, etc.... but trying to gender-type God, as either male or female, is an exercise I find comically baffling.

How is an allegedly incorporeal, infinite, supernatural being either idenitfiably "male" or "female"?

He He He He, that's funny?

448 zombie  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:22:42pm

My main problem is the trackpad clicker-thingies. They're crazy!

449 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:22:52pm

re: #445 buzzsawmonkey

Checkout lanes always say "10 items or less"; go for the correct grammar and the joke falls flat.

The sign should say "10 items or else". Might dissuade some of those 11 and 12 item people. Jerks.

450 axeman1  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:22:55pm

As for a creationist republican will not be elected .
In January of '04 if I told you the most liberal (Pseudo-Marxist)Senator who's pastor ,friend and mentor of 20 years was an anti-American racist along with his co-worker and friend being an unrepentant home grown terrorist would be our next president what might you have thought the odds where on that? Again ,I don't believe creationism should be taught
as science in classrooms but Judeo-Christian conviction and principles are not only the backbone of conservatism but the backbone of freedom around the world. To exclude this factual information from public school teaching is far more tragic than teaching creationism as science. Of course I could be wrong.

451 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:22:59pm

re: #439 Kosh's Shadow

I wonder what will happen to this Iranian girl or her father?
a young girl told viewers that her father called her stuffed monkey 'Ahmadinejad'

Ah OH!

452 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:23:11pm

re: #440 MandyManners

Has he been a Paulian in the past?

I'm thinking he's an "any kook in a storm" kinda guy.

453 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:23:24pm

re: #445 buzzsawmonkey

Checkout lanes always say "10 items or less"; go for the correct grammar and the joke falls flat.

I knew I wasn't the only one who wants to take a can of spray paint to the check-out lines!

454 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:23:35pm

re: #438 zombie

That didn't work -- couldn't find the word "System" using your method -=- but I found it by clicking on "Control Panel" and then clicking them all until the info appeared.

I always change my systems to give a list of words. I think it defaults to stupid icons. If you hold your mouse over the icon, it should tell you what it is.

455 Dragonwolf  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:23:43pm

re: #67 karmic_inquisitor

I have a complaint about this topic: Republican leaders aren't listening.

Unfortunately that is the one topic on which the leadership of both parties agrees 100%. That the masses are too stupid to know what's in their own best interest, so the political 'leaders' must make those decisions for them. Only then will the 'common man' be happy.

456 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:23:53pm

re: #259 yma o hyd
I'll check it out.love a good history book.

457 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:23:57pm

re: #445 buzzsawmonkey

Checkout lanes always say "10 items or less";

Not always! The lanes at the place I go say "... or fewer". Which is why I go there. That's how much of an asshole I am! (And a proud one, to boot.)

458 eschew_obfuscation  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:24:01pm

re: #411 zombie

Newbie question of he century:

How does one find out what "operating system" a Windows computer is using? And secondly, how much RAM it has?

I know next to nothing about Windows computers, but I'm helping someone who knows absolutely nothing, and my task is to find out what version of Windows the computer is running on. But I have no idea where to begin! Help!

Try START (lower left-hand corner of your screen), CONTROL PANEL, SYSTEM.

Under "System:" at the top will be the version of the operating system.

459 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:24:12pm

re: #452 Thanos

I'm thinking he's an "any kook in a storm" kinda guy.

That would explain the defection of some of the Ronulans to the Obama camp.

460 J.S.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:24:48pm

re: #411 zombie

you can use a DOS command "ver" for version...(for windows version)..."mem" for ram...

461 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:25:04pm

re: #449 Leonidas Hoplite

The sign should say "10 items or else". Might dissuade some of those 11 and 12 item people. Jerks.

No. Entitlement will not be dissuaded.

462 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:25:06pm

re: #443 Thanos

Congrats and well done, if it's your 25th, what the heck are you doing here? Want to make it to your 26th ? :)


Because it is 11.23 am and we are going out for dinner tonight, on Friday we go to Wellington to stay a night in a hotel (nudge nudge wink wink) before catching up with friends on Saturday.

463 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:25:07pm

re: #444 zombie

And the answer is: something called "Vista"! Huzzah!

But which version of Vista? Basic, Home Basic, Home, media center, business basic, ultimate, or super duper just send Steve Ballmer all your credit card numbers?

464 zombie  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:25:16pm

re: #458 eschew_obfuscation

Try START (lower left-hand corner of your screen), CONTROL PANEL, SYSTEM.

Under "System:" at the top will be the version of the operating system.

Thx. I just figured it out myself, after wrestling with the bizarre trackpad-clickers, which act incomprehensibly.

465 callahan23  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:25:30pm

re: #411 zombie

Go to -start- then -system controls- there you double click the symbol for -system-
Under the -general- file you'll see 'System' which shows you the version number and the last service pack. Below you'll see 'Computer' where you'll get the info about the hardware including the RAM's.

466 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:25:41pm

re: #449 Leonidas Hoplite

The sign should say "10 items or else". Might dissuade some of those 11 and 12 item people. Jerks.

In the same vein, if I owned a high-end store of any kind, my shotgun-toting security guards would wear buttons saying, "If you break it, you'll buy it".

467 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:26:04pm

re: #414 A Kiwi Infidel

Am I allowed to announce that today my wife and I celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary?

It hasnt been easy with plenty of strains mixed with great times, 3 fantastic kids, we are pushing on. Those words of Churchill are appropriate, "Never give up, never, never, never give up"

Hey congratulations on this day! (why are you spending it here?)

468 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:26:07pm

re: #404 Kosh's Shadow

The full Name of G-d, kabbalistically, has power. The founder of Chassidism, Israel Baal Shem Tov, is called the Baal Shem Tov (Master of the Holy Name) because he was given that name and the necessary information to use it.


In the Tradition, all of the Names have power. Some, differently than others. I know what you are referring to. I just felt I was already pushing the limits of people's interest without a discussion of Chassidus.

469 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:26:11pm
470 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:26:26pm

re: #452 Thanos

I'm thinking he's an "any kook in a storm" kinda guy.

Isn't he an entertainer more than anything else?

471 zombie  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:26:27pm

re: #460 J.S.

you can use a DOS command "ver" for version...(for windows version)..."mem" for ram...

DOS command...hahahahahaha! I can't even get the freakin' mouse-button thingies to work.

472 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:26:41pm

re: #413 Salamantis

But this would be for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of payment to religious schools. Big difference with discretionary refunds there.

I am guessing that Obama's kid's school is not a religious school.

473 abaleh  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:26:44pm

re: #411 zombie

Newbie question of he century:

How does one find out what "operating system" a Windows computer is using? And secondly, how much RAM it has?

I know next to nothing about Windows computers, but I'm helping someone who knows absolutely nothing, and my task is to find out what version of Windows the computer is running on. But I have no idea where to begin! Help!

Right-click "My computer" and choose "properties".
All of the information should be in the "General" tab.

474 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:26:50pm

re: #446 A Kiwi Infidel

Who the heck is Luap NOr? Is he really the Luap Nor, inventor of the telekinetic howitzer, the grandmaster of the Nosferatu Illuminati Templars, a secret society so powerful most people have never even heard of it.

Ron Paul..... if you mentioned his name during the primary hordes of his deluded cybernautic acolytes would descend upon whatever blog it appeared on. Many people started spelling it backwards so that wouldn't happen.

475 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:27:03pm

re: #467 brookly red


See my #462

476 zombie  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:27:08pm

re: #463 Kosh's Shadow

But which version of Vista? Basic, Home Basic, Home, media center, business basic, ultimate, or super duper just send Steve Ballmer all your credit card numbers?

Ah, gee, I didn't know there was more than one kind. You made me have to go back. "Home Basic" it says.

477 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:27:29pm
478 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:27:46pm

re: #474 Thanos

Ron Paul..... if you mentioned his name during the primary hordes of his deluded cybernautic acolytes would descend upon whatever blog it appeared on. Many people started spelling it backwards so that wouldn't happen.


Shit, I'm slow!

479 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:27:49pm

re: #437 Salamantis

No, the teaching of knowledge is education; the inculcation of dogma is indoctrination.

Evolutionary theory is sound, valid and solid empirical science, as evidence-supported as it gets. It cannot in any way, shape, manner or form be credibly equated with religious dogma, which lacks a single shred of supportinfg empirical evidence.

But creationists try, every damn time.

What did I just write? I said the "state" has control of all subject matter that's taught in schools. Why don't I hear the same outcry
about all of the other useless, socialist bullshit that happens in the public schools.

480 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:28:03pm

re: #469 buzzsawmonkey

I prefer saving money on the broken meats

There's a Blue Light Special today on dangled participles in Aisle 3.

481 zombie  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:28:13pm

re: #465 callahan23

Go to -start- then -system controls- there you double click the symbol for -system-
Under the -general- file you'll see 'System' which shows you the version number and the last service pack. Below you'll see 'Computer' where you'll get the info about the hardware including the RAM's.

Thx.

As a first-time user of a Windows computer, I rank its usability as a 1 on a scale of 1 - 10.

482 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:28:22pm

The United States plans to withdraw most of its troops from Iraq by August 2010, 19 months after President Barack Obama's inauguration, according to administration officials. The officials said they expect Obama to make the announcement this week.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Announcing these things is just such a fine idea? It's not like the enemy is listening?

483 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:28:28pm

re: #431 Occasional Reader

It would be for the express purpose of applying toward school tuition; the nature of that school would be decided by the parents. Could be a religious school, or not. Just as the $100 tax rebate might go toward the collection basket, or might go toward buying beer.

Be prepared then, for the big fundamentalist and evangelical curches to kick into overdrive offering creationist private schooling on the cheap, so they can reap future rewards when the students grow up and vote their way, and toss money into their collection plates. it's the madrassa principle.

484 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:28:32pm

re: #457 Occasional Reader

Not always! The lanes at the place I go say "... or fewer". Which is why I go there. That's how much of an asshole I am! (And a proud one, to boot.)

I bet you don't even shop at STOP-N-GO.

485 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:28:41pm

re: #472 Eowyn2

I am guessing that Obama's kid's school is not a religious school.

Technically, at least, it is; Sidwell Friends = Quaker.

486 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:28:47pm

re: #439 Kosh's Shadow

I wonder what will happen to this Iranian girl or her father?
a young girl told viewers that her father called her stuffed monkey 'Ahmadinejad'

hopefully the family has friends in low places and can get relocated real quick.

487 avanti  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:28:58pm

re: #299 Ojoe

The GOP is finished IMHO.

I've heard that before, and from both sides, and don't agree. When you get your butt kicked, ,you pick yourself, do what you need to and become stronger and come back when the other guy has weakened. The whole solution is finding out what the mistakes were, and correcting them.
For a outsider, I see a debate about being too conservative or not conservative enough within the GOP. For a leftie like me, moving closer to the religious right would be a big mistake. Keep the limited government, low taxes concept and perhaps find a middle ground on social issues to peel off the moderates and some on the left.
The fact that Obama pulled more votes from conservatives then Mccain did from the left should show that cross over votes are possible with the right plan.

488 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:29:05pm

re: #475 A Kiwi Infidel

See my #462

My bad. Cool, have a great time!

489 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:29:09pm

re: #399 Thanos

Crap... Beck has Luap NoR on....

I used to think Glenn Beck was entertaining and was on the right track on a lot of "conservative" issues, but the more I hear of his alarmist, sensationalist crap (as of late), it's really turning me off. I may still listen to him every now and then on the radio (when I'm not listening to , but I really have to take a lot of what he says now with a mountain of salt.

/guess I'll just stick to Rush...

490 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:29:20pm

re: #450 axeman1

.....Judeo-Christian conviction and principles are not only the backbone of conservatism but the backbone of freedom around the world. To exclude this factual information from public school teaching is far more tragic than teaching creationism as science. Of course I could be wrong.

1) Bullshit
2) Teaching" Judeo-Christian conviction" in public schools violates the 1st amendment.

491 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:29:25pm

re: #476 zombie

Ah, gee, I didn't know there was more than one kind. You made me have to go back. "Home Basic" it says.

OK, that is, as it says, a fairly basic version for home use. I won't bore you with the details, but it does mean no recording TV shows or connecting to a domain (a group of computers usually within a company that share user IDs and security settings.)

492 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:29:27pm

re: #469 buzzsawmonkey

broken meats

Sounds painful.

493 UFO TOFU  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:29:31pm

re: #457 Occasional Reader

Not always! The lanes at the place I go say "... or fewer". Which is why I go there. That's how much of an asshole I am! (And a proud one, to boot.)

Is that that haughty thing?

494 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:29:46pm

re: #483 Salamantis

Be prepared then, for the big fundamentalist and evangelical curches to kick into overdrive offering creationist private schooling on the cheap

But you see now that you've switched to talking about an undesirable outcome, rather than a constitutional principle.

495 Dragonwolf  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:30:08pm

re: #86 HugoChavez

1. Every Lady should be treated with respect.
2. Every female is a Lady.
3. If you were never taught manners, please ask and I will gladly help you learn.

496 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:30:15pm

re: #319 Soona'

So you're ready to kick out some of the more staunch supportors of conservatism just because they have a belief in something in which you don't approve. I don't mind Charles keeping us up to date because the controversy doesn't scare me. What does bother me are people who seem troubled over what is happening in our government right now, but are willing to do exactly what the zero was being accused of during the campaign; throwing people under the bus for political expediency.

Yes, I would be quite willing to throw people out for not supporting Constitutional principles. But this is not a question of throwing people out, I don't have that power and in fact almost nobody does. The question is whether we willl permit our movement to be dominated by an ideology that would tar us all with pseudoscience and lunatic conspiracy theories (and the ID movement IS a conspiracy theory). Calling these people "staunch supporters of conservatism" raises another crucial question, the very nature of, and definition of conservatism itself. The media would have us believe otherwise, but the Evangelical position on government is simply not the same as the Enlightenment-based principles of modern political conservatism. Goldwater was horrified at the growing dominance of the GOP by the religious faction, and he would be turning over in his grave today.
As for electoral advantage in tossing the religious element, this would actually work the other way around, at least in the short term. It is rather amusing that you would sneer at me for my willingness to sacrifice this short-term advantage, given the refusal of many religious voters to support McCain for his lack of purity. It might be a stretch to suggest that this put Obama in office, but not too much of a stretch given the small margin in the election.

In any case, the extra votes are not worth the long-term damage of becoming a permanently marginal party with no possibility of majority appeal. The bottom line is that this would leave the media/left coalition without effective opposition, a prospect almost too horrible to contemplate.
To me personally, this would be nothing less than a new Dark Age.

Note also that Obama and other libs seem to be reaching out to Evangelicals. I think this reflects a long term strategy on the left. Whether it will work is open to question but it is obviously about electoral expediency. Ironically, this was the real reason for the original shotgun wedding of political and religious conservatism in the late 70s.

497 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:30:21pm
498 J.S.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:30:25pm

re: #471 zombie

hmmm...with a full command (understanding) of DOS/Windows, you don't really need a mouse -- just a keyboard...heh, heh, heh...(can use those keys with the Windows flag logo on it, and that key which looks like a list with an arrow pointing, etc. I once had to do that -- was without a mouse...pain in the a**))

499 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:30:37pm

re: #469 buzzsawmonkey

I prefer saving money on the broken meats and generic boxed foods at the grammatically-challenged establishments to paying out high prices to emporiums with staff grammarians.

broken meats? sounds like a rock band....

500 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:30:51pm

re: #483 Salamantis

Be prepared then, for the big fundamentalist and evangelical curches to kick into overdrive offering creationist private schooling on the cheap, so they can reap future rewards when the students grow up and vote their way, and toss money into their collection plates. it's the madrassa principle.

Don't they need accreditation?

501 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:30:59pm

re: #483 Salamantis

offering creationist private schooling on the cheap

By the way, it's quite common already for parochial schools to offer private schooling on the cheap (compared to elite secular academies, anyway).

502 Dianna  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:31:07pm

re: #472 Eowyn2

I am guessing that Obama's kid's school is not a religious school.

Sidwell Friends?

Quaker.

Though currently, I'm a little unclear on Quaker doctrine.

503 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:31:09pm

re: #481 zombie

Thx.

As a first-time user of a Windows computer, I rank its usability as a 1 on a scale of 1 - 10.

Well, it took me a bit to find out where this info is hidden on a Mac, so it all depends on what you are comfortable with.
The ideal operating system doesn't exist. I just don't have the time or money to write it.
/partially sarc

504 Bob Dillon  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:31:17pm

re: #68 opnion

Illlinois Senior Senator Dick Durbin had a private meeting today with Roland Burris & asked him to resign. FNC reported it & Durbin confirmed it.
Apparently the fish wasn't biting.
Durbin said that Burris was seated on two conditions ,
1. That the proper paperwork was filed.
2. That he answered truthfly to the IL House, Impeachment Committee.
I don't think so. Burris was duly appointed by a sitting governor.
The signed document from the IL Sec of State was not necessary.
Any perjury before the Committee is a State matter.
Face it, Blago stuck it to you.

Aren't "appointed" and "seated" two distinct separate processes?

505 debutaunt  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:31:31pm

re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It there a way to replace and install a sink without the bad smell of whatever it is stuck on with? I have a problem with smells.

506 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:31:38pm

re: #482 nevergiveup

The United States plans to withdraw most of its troops from Iraq by August 2010, 19 months after President Barack Obama's inauguration, according to administration officials. The officials said they expect Obama to make the announcement this week.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Announcing these things is just such a fine idea? It's not like the enemy is listening?

All of ex-pres Bush's efforts and the lives of all those brave US soldiers who died fighting for the freedom of the Iraqi people, will be in vain due to this arrogant decision. I'll leave it at that, else I may lose my cool.

507 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:31:41pm

re: #499 brookly red

broken meats? sounds like a rock band....

Or, a social disease.

508 Dianna  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:31:45pm

re: #473 abaleh

Right-click "My computer" and choose "properties".
All of the information should be in the "General" tab.

Didn't I say that? Am I fading away?

509 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:31:54pm

re: #480 Occasional Reader

There's a Blue Light Special today on dangled participles in Aisle 3.

The one that gets me is the use of "n" or " n' " for and. It makes me cranky out of proportion to the offence.

510 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:32:07pm

re: #489 talon_262

I used to think Glenn Beck was entertaining and was on the right track on a lot of "conservative" issues, but the more I hear of his alarmist, sensationalist crap (as of late), it's really turning me off. I may still listen to him every now and then on the radio (when I'm not listening to , but I really have to take a lot of what he says now with a mountain of salt.

/guess I'll just stick to Rush...

I was watching because the segment before he had the "Liberal Fascism" guy on, it was actually ok if you could get past Glenn's paranoia.

511 eschew_obfuscation  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:32:09pm

re: #464 zombie

Thx. I just figured it out myself, after wrestling with the bizarre trackpad-clickers, which act incomprehensibly.

I suppose I'll eventually get used to Vista, but right now, it drives me nuts along with all the new Office software.

They've so changed the look and feel that I can't find anything without searching.

Makes me look like a complete idiot when someone asks for help as you did ;-)

512 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:32:14pm

re: #307 Eowyn2
Oh maaannnn...that sounds like work...
/

513 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:32:19pm

re: #493 UFO TOFU

Is that that haughty thing?

Exactly! Truth in advertising, that's me!

(Actually, that's a quote that a hostile poster used to describe me, which I quickly adopted. I later got to be on much better terms with that poster. And later still, he was banned.)

514 avanti  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:32:26pm

re: #414 A Kiwi Infidel

Am I allowed to announce that today my wife and I celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary?

It hasnt been easy with plenty of strains mixed with great times, 3 fantastic kids, we are pushing on. Those words of Churchill are appropriate, "Never give up, never, never, never give up"

Rookie, we're going on the 40th this year. :) The secret to a long marriage for us is a night out every week. Her's is Wednesday, mine is Friday. She goes line dancing, I hit the casino.

515 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:32:30pm

re: #450 axeman1

As for a creationist republican will not be elected .
In January of '04 if I told you the most liberal (Pseudo-Marxist)Senator who's pastor ,friend and mentor of 20 years was an anti-American racist along with his co-worker and friend being an unrepentant home grown terrorist would be our next president what might you have thought the odds where on that? Again ,I don't believe creationism should be taught
as science in classrooms but Judeo-Christian conviction and principles are not only the backbone of conservatism but the backbone of freedom around the world. To exclude this factual information from public school teaching is far more tragic than teaching creationism as science. Of course I could be wrong.

You ARE wrong. Conservatives claim to reverence the US Constitution and that US Constitution owes fully as much to the Greco-Roman tradition as it does to the Judeo-Christian (where do you think words like republic and democracy come from, anyway?). And the Greco-Romans were Pagans.

If you wanna teach a contrary view, do it in church.

516 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:32:50pm

re: #494 Occasional Reader

But you see now that you've switched to talking about an undesirable outcome, rather than a constitutional principle.

Plus a fantasy.

Cheap private school. Heh. Find a board member of the scrawniest private school you can and ask about their finances (and therefore the price). My neighbor sits on the board of his child's private Christian school. Times are tough.

/no idea on their evolution stance

517 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:32:55pm

re: #496 Shiplord Kirel

Yes, I would be quite willing to throw people out for not supporting Constitutional principles. But this is not a question of throwing people out, I don't have that power and in fact almost nobody does. The question is whether we willl permit our movement to be dominated by an ideology that would tar us all with pseudoscience and lunatic conspiracy theories (and the ID movement IS a conspiracy theory). Calling these people "staunch supporters of conservatism" raises another crucial question, the very nature of, and definition of conservatism itself. The media would have us believe otherwise, but the Evangelical position on government is simply not the same as the Enlightenment-based principles of modern political conservatism. Goldwater was horrified at the growing dominance of the GOP by the religious faction, and he would be turning over in his grave today.
As for electoral advantage in tossing the religious element, this would actually work the other way around, at least in the short term. It is rather amusing that you would sneer at me for my willingness to sacrifice this short-term advantage, given the refusal of many religious voters to support McCain for his lack of purity. It might be a stretch to suggest that this put Obama in office, but not too much of a stretch given the small margin in the election.

In any case, the extra votes are not worth the long-term damage of becoming a permanently marginal party with no possibility of majority appeal. The bottom line is that this would leave the media/left coalition without effective opposition, a prospect almost too horrible to contemplate.
To me personally, this would be nothing less than a new Dark Age.

Note also that Obama and other libs seem to be reaching out to Evangelicals. I think this reflects a long term strategy on the left. Whether it will work is open to question but it is obviously about electoral expediency. Ironically, this was the real reason for the original shotgun wedding of political and religious conservatism in the late 70s.

I regret that I have but one upding to give. Brilliantly stated.

518 zombie  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:33:05pm

re: #508 Dianna

Didn't I say that? Am I fading away?

Sorry, I'm too distratced with the other computer to acknowledge all the advice.

Thanks everyone!

519 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:33:21pm

re: #489 talon_262

PIMF...meant "(when I'm not listening to XM)"

520 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:33:37pm

re: #514 avanti

Rookie, we're going on the 40th this year. :) The secret to a long marriage for us is a night out every week. Her's is Wednesday, mine is Friday. She goes line dancing, I hit the casino.

And I bet there are nights the casino hits ya back?

521 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:33:46pm

re: #472 Eowyn2

I am guessing that Obama's kid's school is not a religious school.

Same as Clinton's kid's was; Sidwell Friends.

522 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:33:53pm

re: #484 MandyManners

I bet you don't even shop at STOP-N-GO.

I sometimes send the butler to shop there, just to keep in touch with the common people.

523 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:33:54pm

re: #482 nevergiveup

The United States plans to withdraw most of its troops from Iraq by August 2010, 19 months after President Barack Obama's inauguration, according to administration officials. The officials said they expect Obama to make the announcement this week.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Announcing these things is just such a fine idea? It's not like the enemy is listening?

Mooky is rearming and remanning as we speak.

524 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:34:08pm

re: #514 avanti

Rookie, we're going on the 40th this year. :) The secret to a long marriage for us is a night out every week. Her's is Wednesday, mine is Friday. She goes line dancing, I hit the casino.


LOL

525 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:34:17pm

re: #508 Dianna

Didn't I say that? Am I fading away?

Have you been screwing around with time travel again? What did I tell you LAST century, young lady?

/

526 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:34:40pm

re: #498 J.S.

hmmm...with a full command (understanding) of DOS/Windows, you don't really need a mouse -- just a keyboard...heh, heh, heh...(can use those keys with the Windows flag logo on it, and that key which looks like a list with an arrow pointing, etc. I once had to do that -- was without a mouse...pain in the a**))

Very useful if you need to shut down a screwed up system. My mac had a problem where it was up, but no display and that meant I couldn't use a mouse. I had to hard reboot it. Now I know how to reboot using the keyboard (if it lets me).
I still haven't found out how to shut down Vista with the keyboard.

527 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:34:41pm

re: #522 Occasional Reader

I sometimes send the butler to shop there, just to keep in touch with the common people.

Do you touch his sleeve to let some rub off on ya'?

528 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:34:52pm

BBIAW

529 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:34:53pm

re: #496 Shiplord Kirel


That was excellent!

530 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:35:06pm

re: #509 LudwigVanQuixote

The one that gets me is the use of "n" or " n' " for and. It makes me cranky out of proportion to the offence.

I can actually ascribe that one to "folksy" poetic license.

But show me an apostrophe + "s" used to form a plural, and you might as well get out the straitjacket.

531 sattv4u2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:35:15pm

re: #483 Salamantis

Big difference. "Madrasses" aren't accredited as schools, so those children would still be mandated under state laws to have some sort of public or accredited private primary and secondary education. Whereas giving me a property tax credit because my son no longer attends the puiblic school (where most of my property taxes go to) and instead attends a state accredited private school which i pay tuition for

532 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:35:16pm

for a quick summary of system info a good thing to do is search for "dxdiag". dxdiag.exe will pop up a bunch of sys info without having to fiddle too much.

533 debutaunt  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:35:35pm

re: #525 OldLineTexan

Have you been screwing around with time travel again? What did I tell you LAST century, young lady?

/

You and your practical jokes.

534 sattv4u2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:35:43pm

re: #500 MandyManners

Don't they need accreditation?

see my 531

535 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:36:09pm

re: #319 Soona'

No.like any other group,they get with the program or "don't let thedoor hit you in the ass."We can work together,but they cannot be allowed to take over the party.

536 zombie  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:36:29pm

OK, it took me five minutes to figure out how to turn the darn thing off.

It is enough to drive one mad. Half an hour with Windows is more than enough for this lifetime! Thank golly that's over. What an ordeal. I simply can't imagine how people use it all day every day.

537 abaleh  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:36:42pm

re: #508 Dianna

Didn't I say that? Am I fading away?

didn't see.
you're still visible, I'm probably losing my sight.

538 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:36:51pm

re: #515 Salamantis

and that US Constitution owes fully as much to the Greco-Roman tradition

You mean the naked wrestling? Geesh.

539 OldLineTexan  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:36:54pm

re: #533 debutaunt

You and your practical jokes.

Hee-hee! I stomped around in the mud next to dino tracks. In my Keds!

540 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:36:55pm

re: #511 eschew_obfuscation

I suppose I'll eventually get used to Vista, but right now, it drives me nuts along with all the new Office software.

They've so changed the look and feel that I can't find anything without searching.

Makes me look like a complete idiot when someone asks for help as you did ;-)

I hate the "ribbon" on Office 2007. They really did hide frequently used items behind obscure icons - and sometimes, the location and size of the icons makes them obscure. Want to change paragraph formatting? Click the lower right corner of the paragraph box. That was obvious. Not.

541 Proximate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:36:58pm

re: #414 A Kiwi Infidel

Am I allowed to announce that today my wife and I celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary?

Congratulations!

542 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:36:58pm

re: #531 sattv4u2

Big difference. "Madrasses" aren't accredited as schools, so those children would still be mandated under state laws to have some sort of public or accredited private primary and secondary education. Whereas giving me a property tax credit because my son no longer attends the puiblic school (where most of my property taxes go to) and instead attends a state accredited private school which i pay tuition for

They're not? I thought there was one in Minnesota that was accredited.

543 debutaunt  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:36:59pm

re: #530 Occasional Reader

I can actually ascribe that one to "folksy" poetic license.

But show me an apostrophe + "s" used to form a plural, and you might as well get out the straitjacket.

Or even many straightjacket's.

544 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:37:19pm
545 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:37:23pm

re: #479 Soona'

What did I just write? I said the "state" has control of all subject matter that's taught in schools. Why don't I hear the same outcry
about all of the other useless, socialist bullshit that happens in the public schools.

The answer to leftist arsenic in the public school system is not to further poison the patient with creationist strychnine. That makes as much sense as trying to discredit evolution by involking AGW - which closely resembles trying to slander Abraham Lincoln by invoking Ron Paul.

546 UFO TOFU  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:37:38pm

re: #530 Occasional Reader

But show me an apostrophe + "s" used to form a plural, and you might as well get out the straitjacket.


Or the "Ir" word?

547 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:37:44pm

re: #538 Occasional Reader

You mean the naked wrestling? Geesh.

w00t!

548 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:38:18pm

re: #539 OldLineTexan

Hee-hee! I stomped around in the mud next to dino tracks. In my Keds!

Gah. Didn't you remember what your dad told you on your wedding day?!

549 Sheepdogess  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:38:33pm
A FATAL TRAJECTORY
By Thomas Sowell

[Link: www.JewishWorldReview.com...]

An increasing number of recent letters and e-mails from readers strike a note, not only of unhappiness with the way things are going in our society, but a note of despair.

Those of us who are pessimists are only a step away from despair ourselves, so we may not be the ones to offer the best antidote to the view that America has seen its best days and is degenerating toward what may well be its worst. Yet what hope remains is no less precious nor any less worthy of being preserved.

First of all, the day-to-day life of most Americans in these times is nowhere near as dire as that of the band of cold, ragged and hungry men who gathered around George Washington in the winter at Valley Forge, to which they had been driven by defeat after defeat.

Only the most reckless gambler would have bet on them to win. Only an optimist would have expected them to survive.

Against the background of those and other desperate times that this country has been through, we cannot whine today because the stocks in our pension plans have gone down or the inflated value that our houses had just a few years ago has now evaporated.

In another sense, however, looming ahead of us — and our children and their children — are dangers that can utterly destroy American society. Worse yet, there are moral corrosions within ourselves that weaken our ability to face the challenges ahead.

One of the many symptoms of this decay from within is that we are preoccupied with the pay of corporate executives while the leading terrorist-sponsoring nation on earth is moving steadily toward creating nuclear bombs.

Does anyone imagine that we will care what anyone's paycheck is when we see an American city in radioactive ruins?

Yet the only serious obstacle to that happening is that the Israelis may disregard the lofty blather coming out of the White House and destroy Iran's nuclear facilities before the Iranian fanatics can destroy Israel.

If by some miracle we manage to avoid the fatal dangers of a nuclear Iran, there will no doubt be others, including a nuclear North Korea.

Although, in some sense, the United States of America is still the militarily strongest nation on earth, that means absolutely nothing if our enemies are willing to die and we are not.

It took only two nuclear bombs to get Japan to surrender — and the Japanese of that era were far tougher than most Americans today. Just one bomb — dropped on New York, Chicago or Los Angeles — might be enough to get us to surrender.

If we are still made of sterner stuff than it looks like, then it might take two or maybe even three or four nuclear bombs, but we will surrender.

It doesn't matter if we retaliate and kill millions of innocent Iranian civilians — at least it will not matter to the fanatics in charge of Iran or the fanatics in charge of the international terrorist organizations that Iran supplies.

Ultimately, it all comes down to who is willing to die and who is not.

How did we get to this point?

It was no single thing.

The dumbing down of our education, the undermining of moral values with the fad of "non-judgmental" affectations, the denigration of our nation through poisonous propaganda from the movies to the universities. The list goes on and on.


continued...

550 sattv4u2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:38:37pm

re: #542 MandyManners

They're not? I thought there was one in Minnesota that was accredited.

Not that I'm aware of (but I haven;'t been to Minnesota nor regularly read their news in decades) I will look.

551 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:38:59pm

re: #543 debutaunt

Or even many straightjacket's.

I KEEEEL YOU!

552 avanti  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:39:20pm

re: #520 nevergiveup

And I bet there are nights the casino hits ya back?

That's why they call it gambling, but I've done very well. You can't win every week, but using responsible money management, you can do OK. i.e. if win one week, I'll quit it I lose half that the next week. The casino make their money from the guys that get a good run, then stay at the tables until it's gone.

553 USBeast  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:39:46pm

O/T but I don't care.

Ye Olde Beastie just got back from the ER. My mother, who was diagnosed with lung cancer last week was returned to the hospital from the nursing home complaining of chest pains. Last week the doctor was talking about months. Today he was talking about days. I sat with her most of the afternoon but they had given her morphine and she was asleep the whole time.

In your prayers, please pray for a painless exit.

554 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:40:13pm

re: #535 Boondock St. Bender

No.like any other group,they get with the program or "don't let thedoor hit you in the ass."We can work together,but they cannot be allowed to take over the party.

I believe there are enough of us worldly old bastards (and worldly youngsters) to keep up our side of the party. :)

555 jim in virginia  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:40:21pm

re: #502 Dianna

Sidwell Friends?

Quaker.

Though currently, I'm a little unclear on Quaker doctrine.


Yes, Quaker. They have school meetings once a week (if it were Episcopal it would be chapel) - in the Quaker tradition, anyone can talk about whatever they want.
Somehow I can't see that working very well with a bunch of fifteen year olds.

556 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:40:42pm

re: #553 USBeast

I'm so sorry to hear your news.

557 sattv4u2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:40:45pm

re: #553 USBeast

O/T but I don't care.

Thanks for weighing in, Jimmy Crack Corn!

558 Sheepdogess  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:40:49pm
The trajectory of our course leads to a fate that would fully justify despair. The only saving grace is that even the trajectory of a bullet can be changed by the wind.

We have been saved by miraculous good fortune before in our history. The overwhelming military and naval expedition that Britain sent to New York to annihilate George Washington's army was totally immobilized by a vast impenetrable fog that allowed the Americans to escape. That is how they ended up in Valley Forge.

In the World War II naval battle of Midway, if things had not happened just the way they did, at just the time they did, the American naval force would not only have lost, but could have been wiped out by the far larger Japanese fleet.

Over the years, we have had our share of miraculous deliverances. But that our fate today depends on yet another miracle is what can turn pessimism to despair.

559 debutaunt  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:40:53pm

re: #551 Occasional Reader

I KEEEEL YOU!

With what weapon's?

560 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:40:54pm

re: #494 Occasional Reader

But you see now that you've switched to talking about an undesirable outcome, rather than a constitutional principle.

Well, once alla those theocractically brainwashed zombic memebots reached voting age and shitcanned the Constitution, we wouldn't have to concern ourselves with such things.

/who was it who said that the US Constitution was not a suicide pact?

561 UFO TOFU  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:41:08pm

re: #553 USBeast

Damn, that is crushing news. I'm so sorry.

562 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:41:19pm

re: #550 sattv4u2

Not that I'm aware of (but I haven;'t been to Minnesota nor regularly read their news in decades) I will look.

I read about it here.

563 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:41:32pm

re: #553 USBeast

{Beast}

564 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:41:59pm

re: #553 USBeast

((((((Beastie & family))))))

565 midwestgak  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:42:00pm

re: #553 USBeast

So sorry. Prayers for her and you.

566 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:42:05pm

re: #549 Sheepdogess

0bama is already surrendering. His delegates to Durban II f*cing apologized!

"I hate to be the cause of unhappiness in the room... I have to suggest [amendments] and I offer my sincere apologies."


Read the whole thing here. Have a bucket nearby.

567 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:42:12pm

re: #558 Sheepdogess

Hail the heros of Torpedo 8.

568 opnion  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:42:28pm

re: #504 Bobibutu

Aren't "appointed" and "seated" two distinct separate processes?


The way I undrstand it & heard it explained is that seating is pro forma, provided the Senator obtained the seat according to law.
Blago was a sitting Governor at the time who had niether been impeached or removed.
Illinois law was followed & there was no basis to deny Burris his seat.
They knew that the courts would not support their denial of seating.
It may have been possible for the Illinois legialature to forced a special election, but probably not.

569 Wilderstad  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:42:59pm

re: #123 Russkilitlover

And it's disturbing that the media is gloming onto these Christian Socialists as THE Republican party voice.

Case in point, Jindahl is giving the Repub commentary to Barry's speech tonight. Media outlets I've heard on the radio are labeling Jindahl as the "rising star" of the Republican party.

Won't be much of a party left.

Do you smell a set up? I do.

570 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:43:03pm
571 USBeast  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:43:12pm

re: #505 debutaunt

It there a way to replace and install a sink without the bad smell of whatever it is stuck on with? I have a problem with smells.

FBV has toddled (waddled?) off. What kind of sink are you replacing? I have knowledge of such things

572 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:43:25pm

re: #482 nevergiveup

The United States plans to withdraw most of its troops from Iraq by August 2010, 19 months after President Barack Obama's inauguration, according to administration officials. The officials said they expect Obama to make the announcement this week.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Announcing these things is just such a fine idea? It's not like the enemy is listening?

And it gives the Dems the added edge 2 mos prior to a new election.
I see, in my crystal ball, a marked increase in violence between July and September 2010 in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon. Cant have one without the other. Decline in violence in Afghanistan as the cockaroaches run from the Kyber to the plains.

573 JHW  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:43:28pm

re: #481 zombie

Zombie , for info on your computer system, you may try Start>Run> Type dxdiag in the box and hit enter, and it should bring up your comprehensive system specs. Alternately,and I very much recommend this free program
Sandra Lite for everyone. It's an extremely easy to use nifty program that will analyze your computer from soup to nuts, with separate windows for each hardware component for example, and it can be a huge money saver in that it will catch something going bad before it fries your system. System temperatures, flaws in components, whatever, it will find it and give specific recommendations on fixing any potential problems before they get out of hand. Very user friendly for computer novices or experts. I wouldn't be without it, it's alerted me to overheating and such before it became dangerous. Absolutely free and non-intrusive.

574 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:43:42pm

re: #553 USBeast

Prayer sent.

575 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:43:48pm

re: #553 USBeast

We all go home. My mom at 85 passed away in 2007. I miss her.

576 jim in virginia  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:43:58pm

re: #553 USBeast

O/T but I don't care.

Ye Olde Beastie just got back from the ER. My mother, who was diagnosed with lung cancer last week was returned to the hospital from the nursing home complaining of chest pains. Last week the doctor was talking about months. Today he was talking about days. I sat with her most of the afternoon but they had given her morphine and she was asleep the whole time.

In your prayers, please pray for a painless exit.


If you haven't yet, talk to Hopsice. They are good folks.
Prayers for you and yours.

577 callahan23  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:44:14pm

re: #553 USBeast

So sorry to hear that. My thoughts are with you and your family.

578 opnion  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:44:19pm

re: #514 avanti

Rookie, we're going on the 40th this year. :) The secret to a long marriage for us is a night out every week. Her's is Wednesday, mine is Friday. She goes line dancing, I hit the casino.

Fourty years , huh? Good for you!

579 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:44:56pm

re: #566 Kosh's Shadow

0bama is already surrendering. His delegates to Durban II f*cing apologized!


Read the whole thing here. Have a bucket nearby.

Great link. Threadworthy.

580 sattv4u2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:44:59pm

re: #553 USBeast

O/T but I don't care.

Ye Olde Beastie just got back from the ER. My mother, who was diagnosed with lung cancer last week was returned to the hospital from the nursing home complaining of chest pains. Last week the doctor was talking about months. Today he was talking about days. I sat with her most of the afternoon but they had given her morphine and she was asleep the whole time.

In your prayers, please pray for a painless exit.

As soon as I see GODDESS, I'll ask her to be added to the Lizard Prayer List

581 debutaunt  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:45:03pm

re: #571 USBeast

FBV has toddled (waddled?) off. What kind of sink are you replacing? I have knowledge of such things

A regular kitchen sink - is there such a thing as a non-smelling sealant?

582 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:45:15pm

re: #545 Salamantis

The answer to leftist arsenic in the public school system is not to further poison the patient with creationist strychnine. That makes as much sense as trying to discredit evolution by involking AGW - which closely resembles trying to slander Abraham Lincoln by invoking Ron Paul.

But there's been so much more than just global warming being taught that should have caused just as much of an uproar before the ID controversy even came into focus. Where were all of you then?

583 J.S.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:45:35pm

re: #526 Kosh's Shadow

That is a problem (shutting down, via keyboard with Vista)...(with XP you could use ctrl-alt-del, get to the Task Manager, then use the shut down feature...but, with Vista that shut-down feature is no longer there...)

584 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:45:37pm

re: #566 Kosh's Shadow

0bama is already surrendering. His delegates to Durban II f*cing apologized!


Read the whole thing here. Have a bucket nearby.

I knew Obama was going to be an unmitigated disaster, but in the back of my mind, somewhere way back there, I was hoping I was wrong. OOPS I guess not.

585 Proximate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:45:51pm

Ya know, between the infighting and the lack of real conservatism in the GOP, I'm inclined to stop paying attention to politics, and avoid the polls.

Maybe after a generation or two of ever-increasing tyranny, ever-eroding freedoms, and worsening international situations, conservatism will make a comeback.

TTFN, I've work to do. Be well, lizards.

586 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:45:54pm
587 Ojoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:45:56pm

re: #569 Wilderstad

Check out the Modern Whig Party:
Modern Whigs.

588 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:46:46pm

re: #483 Salamantis

Be prepared then, for the big fundamentalist and evangelical curches to kick into overdrive offering creationist private schooling on the cheap, so they can reap future rewards when the students grow up and vote their way, and toss money into their collection plates. it's the madrassa principle.

Having gone to a parochial school, I can attest that the state requires certain standards to be taught. We did not have a 'religious' class and evolution was taught in the 5th through 8th grades. Stress in 1-3 was on Math, Reading, Penmanship and recess.

589 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:46:51pm

re: #583 J.S.

That is a problem (shutting down, via keyboard with Vista)...(with XP you could use ctrl-alt-del, get to the Task Manager, then use the shut down feature...but, with Vista that shut-down feature is no longer there...)

nothing works on vista. POS

590 mikeymom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:46:52pm

re: #553 USBeast

prayers will be for all of you. take care.

591 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:47:47pm

re: #531 sattv4u2

Big difference. "Madrasses" aren't accredited as schools, so those children would still be mandated under state laws to have some sort of public or accredited private primary and secondary education. Whereas giving me a property tax credit because my son no longer attends the puiblic school (where most of my property taxes go to) and instead attends a state accredited private school which i pay tuition for

Should childless citizens then be exempt from property taxes? Or is one of the prices of US citizenship to provide free public education for America's youth?

And as far as accreditation goes, that would dwindle as the political power of the graduated RR-mill-school voters grew.

592 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:47:58pm

re: #558 Sheepdogess

In the World War II naval battle of Midway, if things had not happened just the way they did, at just the time they did, the American naval force would not only have lost, but could have been wiped out by the far larger Japanese fleet.

I read this Thomas Sowell piece earlier. He's right about Midway, in a way, and wrong, in a way. "If things had not happened just the way they did, at just the time they did..." well, actually the initial American torpedo plane attacks were disasters, of course. Not to mention the utterly ineffective B-17 sortie from Midway Island. Our guys only THEN got very lucky, when the Japanese forgot to clear their decks of ordnance after re-arming their attack aircraft.

593 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:48:03pm

re: #583 J.S.

That is a problem (shutting down, via keyboard with Vista)...(with XP you could use ctrl-alt-del, get to the Task Manager, then use the shut down feature...but, with Vista that shut-down feature is no longer there...)

XP: Windows then U (for Shutdown) then U (for shut off) would shut down. Depending on how the dialog was configured, you might need to also press Enter.
Windows key brings up the start menu in Vista, but there is no obvious keyboard shortcut for the shutdown menu.

594 USBeast  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:48:12pm

re: #576 jim in virginia

If you haven't yet, talk to Hopsice. They are good folks.
Prayers for you and yours.

Thanks Jim and all. Hospice has been talked to. I've been through this before.

595 J.S.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:48:19pm

re: #589 brookly red

I just looked up how to shut down Vista (via keyboard), the sequence is
"Ctrl+Esc, Right, Right, Right, u "

596 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:48:34pm

re: #553 USBeast

I am so sorry to hear that, my thoughts are with you and yours.

597 Last Mohican  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:48:36pm

re: #481 zombie

Thx.

As a first-time user of a Windows computer, I rank its usability as a 1 on a scale of 1 - 10.

I have had to use Windows computers a lot in my work. As a result, I have increased my usability rating to 2.

598 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:48:47pm

Barry Goldwater vs. the Religious Right

"By maintaining the separation of church and state," he explained, "the United States has avoided the intolerance which has so divided the rest of the world with religious wars . . . Can any of us refute the wisdom of Madison and the other framers? Can anyone look at the carnage in Iran, the bloodshed in Northem Ireland, or the bombs bursting in Lebanon and yet question the dangers of injecting religious issues into the affairs of state?"

-Barry Goldwater

599 opnion  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:48:49pm

re: #584 nevergiveup

I knew Obama was going to be an unmitigated disaster, but in the back of my mind, somewhere way back there, I was hoping I was wrong. OOPS I guess not.

I do believe, that he has stated out worse than most even thought that he would. It is clear that he intends to be an activist president & punish us with lots of TV time. IMO it is crucial in 2010 to turn over the House.

600 Bob Dillon  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:49:55pm

re: #568 opnion

The way I undrstand it & heard it explained is that seating is pro forma, provided the Senator obtained the seat according to law.
Blago was a sitting Governor at the time who had niether been impeached or removed.
Illinois law was followed & there was no basis to deny Burris his seat.
They knew that the courts would not support their denial of seating.
It may have been possible for the Illinois legialature to forced a special election, but probably not.

Thanks - messy anyway.

601 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:49:56pm

re: #553 USBeast

O/T but I don't care.

Ye Olde Beastie just got back from the ER. My mother, who was diagnosed with lung cancer last week was returned to the hospital from the nursing home complaining of chest pains. Last week the doctor was talking about months. Today he was talking about days. I sat with her most of the afternoon but they had given her morphine and she was asleep the whole time.

In your prayers, please pray for a painless exit.

My prayers and thoughts are with you and your mom. Try to eat something, get a little rest, then go on back to the hospital. you might as well, you wont be able to sleep.
Take a 500 piece puzzle with you and a small table. It will help. Trust me.

602 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:49:59pm

re: #553 USBeast
Beast something like this is never o.t.
prayers and hopes to you and yours.

603 opnion  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:50:07pm

re: #588 Eowyn2

Having gone to a parochial school, I can attest that the state requires certain standards to be taught. We did not have a 'religious' class and evolution was taught in the 5th through 8th grades. Stress in 1-3 was on Math, Reading, Penmanship and recess.

We had the same experince. I remember being told that The Garden of Eden was just a story.

604 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:50:10pm

re: #595 J.S.

thanks, but I still hate it.

605 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:50:12pm

I'd like to share a story with you all. It relates to ID tangentially but makes I think the same point.

I have an aunt whom I love very much, but she is one of those crystal/hippie/sees auras/talks to dead pets sorts.

Once when I was in college, over Christmas break, I went down to Va to visit her. She has a lot of friends who share her new age interests. They and my aunt were quite excited to see me as a physicist. I thought ohhhh boy, they want me to verify something for them.

Sure enough they began to tell me excitedly that there was a UFO landing just down the hill by the neck of woods about 150 meters from my aunt's house. They all excitedly told me that they saw a great light in the trees, and that there was a procession of alien beings performing a ritual down there. They were marching through the trees with blue lights.

"Really?" I said. Now I was 19 and still respectful of my elders. I was not going to be harsh to a bunch of 40-60 year old people.

I asked "did you get your cam?"

"No you're right we should have, we were too busy watching."

"Ok, did you go down there to check it out?"

"No"

"When was this?"

"Just two days ago."

"I said lets see if there is anything still down there."

When we go there, we found blue Christmas lights strung through the trees and a great big Arc light that the neighbor used to illuminate his huge artificial tree.

The point is that once people want to believe something, they will happily go off and reinforce each other's illusions.

I like to point out to my students that if other life has gotten here, if they are smart enough to figure out how to cross the light years, they would not be so fascinated with the human rectum. It just is not that much of a scientific challenge, and after all of those probings (if true) the most interesting thing the aliens would be able to figure out is that about one in ten don't mind so much.

The deeper point here is one of psychology. The ID people have a certain mass delusion no different than the UFO people. It is just that the ID people have the authority of religion behind them.

606 Last Mohican  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:50:18pm

re: #595 J.S.

I just looked up how to shut down Vista (via keyboard), the sequence is
"Ctrl+Esc, Right, Right, Right, u "

Sounds like a quote from a Macintosh commercial.

607 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:50:59pm

re: #592 Occasional Reader

I read this Thomas Sowell piece earlier. He's right about Midway, in a way, and wrong, in a way. "If things had not happened just the way they did, at just the time they did..." well, actually the initial American torpedo plane attacks were disasters, of course. Not to mention the utterly ineffective B-17 sortie from Midway Island. Our guys only THEN got very lucky, when the Japanese forgot to clear their decks of ordnance after re-arming their attack aircraft.

Of course it did help we had broke their naval code?

608 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:51:07pm

re: #595 J.S.

I just looked up how to shut down Vista (via keyboard), the sequence is
"Ctrl+Esc, Right, Right, Right, u "

sashay and twirl and repeat

609 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:51:33pm

re: #587 Ojoe

Check out the Modern Whig Party:
Modern Whigs.

Sounds like just another wing of the liberals.

610 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:51:34pm

re: #599 opnion

I do believe, that he has stated out worse than most even thought that he would. It is clear that he intends to be an activist president & punish us with lots of TV time. IMO it is crucial in 2010 to turn over the House.

Absolutely!

611 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:51:35pm

re: #582 Soona'

But there's been so much more than just global warming being taught that should have caused just as much of an uproar before the ID controversy even came into focus. Where were all of you then?

Is that an argument against us being here NOW? I think not.

612 aggieann  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:51:45pm

re: #579 Occasional Reader

Great link. Threadworthy.

I agree.

613 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:52:19pm

re: #605 LudwigVanQuixote

When we go there, we found blue Christmas lights strung through the trees and a great big Arc light that the neighbor used to illuminate his huge artificial tree.

It was awfully clever of the Grays to disguise their activities like that.

614 opnion  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:52:22pm

re: #600 Bobibutu

Thanks - messy anyway.

What they could have done though is hurry up legislation to mandate Special Elections before Blago pulled the trigger.
After he did it, too late.

615 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:53:15pm

re: #606 Last Mohican

Sounds like a quote from a Macintosh commercial.

Well I never have had a problem turning it off, I just start to do something important... the problem is keeping it ON.

616 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:53:18pm

But Goldwater was also deeply worried about the Religious Right's long-term impact on his beloved GOP. "If they succeed in establishing religion as a basic Republican Party tenet," he told U.S. News & World Report in 1994, "they could do us in."

Source

617 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:53:22pm

re: #613 Occasional Reader

It was awfully clever of the Grays to disguise their activities like that.

My aunt's friend blamed the men in black.

618 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:53:32pm

re: #588 Eowyn2

Having gone to a parochial school, I can attest that the state requires certain standards to be taught. We did not have a 'religious' class and evolution was taught in the 5th through 8th grades. Stress in 1-3 was on Math, Reading, Penmanship and recess.

The two big school runners should this happen would both be creationist: the Assembly of God and the Southern Baptist Church. I sincerely doubt if they will be comparable to Catholic education.

619 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:53:36pm

Given the precedents at the college level and court rulings on public aid to parochial schools, I don't think that vouchers for religious schools would necessarily be unConstitutional.
Otoh, I strongly believe that the whole vouchers issue is really at the root of the religious right's current emphasis on ID and Creationism.
As Rush Limbaugh is fond of saying, follow the money trail.
ID is a hot-button wedge issue that serve to push susceptible parents further from the public schools. There are many other such issues, and much better ones, but this one is relatively simple and specific and bypasses such messy controversies as multicultural revisionism and teacher tenure.
ID serves to increase the pressure for vouchers. These, in turn, would bring billions in loot into the coffers of the religious organizations that are best prepared to offer creationist education; the same organizations, obviously, that are beating the drum for ID.

620 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:53:48pm

re: #607 nevergiveup

Of course it did help we had broke their naval code?

Oh, absolutely. But the initial attempts to make use of that advantage were fruitless.

(Interesting note; the Germans had already learned that we had broken the Japanese naval code, but never bothered telling them.)

621 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:54:26pm

Goldwater not only predicted the desire of the RR to hijack the conservative movement, he also predicted it's destructive potential. And yet- here we are....

622 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:54:43pm

re: #581 debutaunt

A regular kitchen sink - is there such a thing as a non-smelling sealant?

Most newer stainless steel sinks don't adhere to the countertop, they have clips underneath. You do, however, want to use some clear silicone between the sink and countertop to provide a waterproof seal. The silicone doesn't smell too bad, IMO.

/Just installed one last week with a new countertop.

623 USBeast  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:54:43pm

re: #581 debutaunt

A regular kitchen sink - is there such a thing as a non-smelling sealant?

There are several kinds of "regular" kitchen sinks. Stainless steel is usually sealed with plumbers putty with is very low odor. Cast iron and the newer material sinks are usually sealed with latex calk which has a mild odor until it sets up. Silicone calks stink up the place and the solvent odor can linger.

624 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:55:22pm

re: #595 J.S.

I just looked up how to shut down Vista (via keyboard), the sequence is
"Ctrl+Esc, Right, Right, Right, u "

OK. Ctrl-esc is the same as the Windows key. This brings up the start menu.
right - right- right selects an item three to the right of where the menu started. u picks shutdown from that submenu.
That, to me, isn't a shortcut, as it is using the keyboard to navigate menus.
A true shortcut has a key like u mapped to some word, like shUtdown.

Does it make any more sense?
You are trapped in a maze of tiny dialogs, all different.

625 Bob Dillon  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:55:28pm

re: #614 opnion

What they could have done though is hurry up legislation to mandate Special Elections before Blago pulled the trigger.
After he did it, too late.

Yeah - probably would be like getting everyone who's stoned at a party to agree on what type of pizza to order in.

626 Dianna  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:55:31pm

Occasional Reader! I just saw on the elevator news that Adriana Lima eloped on February 14th!

627 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:55:32pm

re: #619 Shiplord Kirel

Given the precedents at the college level and court rulings on public aid to parochial schools, I don't think that vouchers for religious schools would necessarily be unConstitutional.
Otoh, I strongly believe that the whole vouchers issue is really at the root of the religious right's current emphasis on ID and Creationism.
As Rush Limbaugh is fond of saying, follow the money trail.
ID is a hot-button wedge issue that serve to push susceptible parents further from the public schools. There are many other such issues, and much better ones, but this one is relatively simple and specific and bypasses such messy controversies as multicultural revisionism and teacher tenure.
ID serves to increase the pressure for vouchers. These, in turn, would bring billions in loot into the coffers of the religious organizations that are best prepared to offer creationist education; the same organizations, obviously, that are beating the drum for ID.

....and the same orgs that have the textbooks for ID, what a racket.

628 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:55:44pm
629 Bill K.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:55:50pm

The GOP is presently debauching its reputation pursuing this anti-intellectual nonsense. This is plain and simply a power grab by unscrupulous ruffians determined to impose their ludicrous views on the rest of us. This sort of behavior is usually associated with the Democrats but the Republicans have lost their integrity too.

When the other pseudo-science, global warming, starts being pushed by Obama who in the Republican Party will have the authority to repudiate this vicious nonsense? Some GOP clown who thinks that the earth is 6000 years old and that man walked along side the dinosaurs?

630 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:56:41pm

Signaling a possible thaw in relations, Syria's ambassador to Washington will meet a senior U.S. diplomat on Thursday, the highest-level contact between the two nations since the Obama administration took office.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

We getting so buddy buddy with Syria, I wonder if they have any great vacation spots? Oh I forgot, I'm Jewish. Ah never mind.

631 Dragonwolf  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:56:44pm

I just had a scary thought.

ID taught as science.
Students begin applying same standards in other fields.
Students graduate.
America's bio-tech industry tanks.
American medicine (now socialized by the one) follows suit.
We can go to the back streets of Mexico City or Shanghai and get better medical service than in the US.
People grow to accept this as the way it should be.

I think at that point, I'd take the Kool-Aid just to get out of here.

632 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:56:44pm

re: #626 Dianna

Occasional Reader! I just saw on the elevator news that Adriana Lima eloped on February 14th!

That's unpossible! I'm still married to my wife. How could she have eloped with me if...

Wait. One. Minute.

633 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:57:01pm

re: #626 Dianna

Occasional Reader! I just saw on the elevator news that Adriana Lima eloped on February 14th!

Oh, no. He's gonna' tear up on us!

634 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:57:06pm

re: #628 buzzsawmonkey

I never understood why the Men in Black films didn't do a marketing tie-in with the Mennen deodorant people. They could have come out with a roll-on that looked like that mind-erase doohickey and advertised it as "Mennen Black."

Actually MiB conspiracy lunacy predates the films by quite a bit. He was serious. Black helecopters and cattle mutilations and all of that.

635 sphincter  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:57:11pm

re: #620 Occasional Reader

Really? Where did you read that? I love reading history and have not come across that. Any info. you have would be appreciated.

636 Dianna  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:57:27pm

Just for Occasional Reader: Adriana Lima Elopes!

637 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:57:35pm

Quick drop before my wife and head out for lunc.

Watch this space.

Well, well, it seems the tentacles of terrorism stretch a little further than Pakistan with regard the Mumbai massacre. I wonder if the authorities will follow this all the way?

638 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:58:04pm

re: #631 Dragonwolf

I just had a scary thought.

ID taught as science.
Students begin applying same standards in other fields.
Students graduate.
America's bio-tech industry tanks.
American medicine (now socialized by the one) follows suit.
We can go to the back streets of Mexico City or Shanghai and get better medical service than in the US.
People grow to accept this as the way it should be.

I think at that point, I'd take the Kool-Aid just to get out of here.

That's the road down which our nation might very well go if this nonsense is not stopped.

639 opnion  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:58:18pm

re: #625 Bobibutu

Yeah - probably would be like getting everyone who's stoned at a party to agree on what type of pizza to order in.

Good analogy. The Dems were afraid that left to their own devices, the voters might actually elect a Republican, because of the Blago scandal.
BHO wanted Burris, because he needed his vote on the Stimulus Bill.

640 USBeast  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:58:47pm

re: #601 Eowyn2

My prayers and thoughts are with you and your mom. Try to eat something, get a little rest, then go on back to the hospital. you might as well, you wont be able to sleep.
Take a 500 piece puzzle with you and a small table. It will help. Trust me.

Thanks. She is being moved back to the nursing home and will be out of it until morning I'm told. I have several crossword puzzles saved up. They served me well during my daughter's heart surgery.

641 J.S.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:58:55pm

re: #624 Kosh's Shadow

Yeah, I agree. A true shortcut would be more like a macro...

642 dentate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:59:01pm

re: #628 buzzsawmonkey

I never understood why the Men in Black films didn't do a marketing tie-in with the Mennen deodorant people. They could have come out with a roll-on that looked like that mind-erase doohickey and advertised it as "Mennen Black."

I think Charles should look into getting Ban deodorant to advertise the Ban Stick here.

643 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:59:10pm

re: #634 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually MiB conspiracy lunacy predates the films by quite a bit. He was serious. Black helecopters and cattle mutilations and all of that.

I haven't figured out why the aliens just don't take a herd of cattle back with them to mutilate in the comfort of their own planet.
What with the cost of dilithium since ODEP (Organization of Dilithium Exporting Planets) cut down the supply, you'd think they'd want to save some latinum.
/do I need to?

644 sphincter  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:59:12pm

re: #631 Dragonwolf

What is your assessment of education in America now? Is it good, bad, middle of the road?
Since the 50's it has been in decline. Used to be the best in the world. Not so much anymore.
Education might need a "Stimulus" all the way around. The 3 RRR's might be a good place to start.

645 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:59:31pm

re: #628 buzzsawmonkey

I never understood why the Men in Black films didn't do a marketing tie-in with the Mennen deodorant people. They could have come out with a roll-on that looked like that mind-erase doohickey and advertised it as "Mennen Black."

Uhhhh, we have reviewed your resume, and it is on file....

646 Dianna  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:59:40pm

re: #632 Occasional Reader

That's unpossible! I'm still married to my wife. How could she have eloped with me if...

Wait. One. Minute.

I am so sorry.

/

647 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:59:58pm
648 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:00:33pm

re: #619 Shiplord Kirel

But that could still backfire. It's an evolutionary pressure, vouchers. Public schools would have to compete to keep students. They improve, and they start to look more appealing than private schools.

And then there's the natural selection of the uneducated kids. I think most people this concerned about their children's education will pick the better schools, and not just one's that confirm their world views. I don't care how cheap a creationist school would make their tuition- I wouldn't send a child there.

649 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:00:37pm

re: #637 A Kiwi Infidel

Quick drop before my wife and head out for lunc.

Watch this space.

Well, well, it seems the tentacles of terrorism stretch a little further than Pakistan with regard the Mumbai massacre. I wonder if the authorities will follow this all the way?

Austria, Italy and the US? Wow.

650 Dianna  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:00:38pm

re: #635 sphincter

Really? Where did you read that? I love reading history and have not come across that. Any info. you have would be appreciated.

Look for "Purple."

651 Bob Dillon  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:00:42pm

re: #639 opnion

Good analogy. The Dems were afraid that left to their own devices, the voters might actually elect a Republican, because of the Blago scandal.
BHO wanted Burris, because he needed his vote on the Stimulus Bill.

Ah - you don't mean the fix was in before he was appointed, do you?

/

652 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:01:46pm

re: #647 buzzsawmonkey

In the meantime, the bulk of science students here are foreign nationals.

That's because the Americans know that it is too hard to get a job in science here. I left physics with a Master's after seeing how life is in academia. I didn't want to be the 40 year old postdoc.

653 opnion  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:01:54pm

See ya Lizards. Be sure when you watch BHO tonight, that you put your ShamWow on top of the TV. That is the Obama version of a prayer towel.

654 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:02:11pm

re: #635 sphincter

Really? Where did you read that? I love reading history and have not come across that. Any info. you have would be appreciated.

Martin Gilbert's one-volume history, The Second World War. (I think.)

IIRC, a German U-boat had captured an Australian mailboat, that had American intelligence documents on it, demonstrating the code had been broken. But inexplicably, the Germans just never told the Japanese about it. Arguably, this cost them the war!

655 zombie  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:02:23pm

Holy Cow, looks like the SF Chronicle may be closing down soon:

In a posted statement, Hearst said if the savings cannot be accomplished "quickly" the company will seek a buyer, and if none comes forward, it will close the Chronicle. The Chronicle lost more than $50 million in 2008 and is on a pace to lose more than that this year, Hearst said.

Couldn't happen to a nicer paper.

/

656 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:02:27pm

re: #647 buzzsawmonkey

In the meantime, the bulk of science students here are foreign nationals.

Will they all go home when they're done?

657 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:02:47pm

re: #643 Kosh's Shadow

I haven't figured out why the aliens just don't take a herd of cattle back with them to mutilate in the comfort of their own planet.
What with the cost of dilithium since ODEP (Organization of Dilithium Exporting Planets) cut down the supply, you'd think they'd want to save some latinum.
/do I need to?

What is a proud son of JMS and B5 doing making Trekkie references?

///////

SO SAY WE ALL!

658 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:02:58pm

re: #653 opnion

See ya Lizards. Be sure when you watch BHO tonight, that you put your ShamWow on top of the TV. That is the Obama version of a prayer towel.

I'd have to put my TV behind a shatterproof screen, and take extra doses of blood pressure medicine. I'm not watching, and I don't care if they do come to take me to the re-education camps.

659 sphincter  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:03:01pm

re: #654 Occasional Reader

Thanks!

660 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:03:11pm

re: #611 Salamantis

Is that an argument against us being here NOW? I think not.

Conservatism is still surviving even among young people coming out of our liberal public school system that we've had for the last three decades. I think that the ideals, principles,and freedoms of our constitution are much bigger than one subject in a school's cirriculum.

661 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:04:03pm

re: #618 Salamantis

The two big school runners should this happen would both be creationist: the Assembly of God and the Southern Baptist Church. I sincerely doubt if they will be comparable to Catholic education.

we did have knuckle thwacking as an additional pasttime.

662 opnion  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:04:12pm

re: #658 Kosh's Shadow

I'd have to put my TV behind a shatterproof screen, and take extra doses of blood pressure medicine. I'm not watching, and I don't care if they do come to take me to the re-education camps.

I'll probably pass too. A good night to read. See ya.

663 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:04:21pm

re: #657 LudwigVanQuixote

What is a proud son of JMS and B5 doing making Trekkie references?

///////

SO SAY WE ALL!

What was the fuel in Battlestar again? The stuff they make in that dirty old ship.

664 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:04:27pm

re: #633 MandyManners

Oh, no. He's gonna' tear up on us!

Tell me there's something wrong with a divine being like Adriana hitching herself with this dork.

665 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:04:43pm
666 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:04:47pm

re: #648 Sharmuta

But that could still backfire. It's an evolutionary pressure, vouchers. Public schools would have to compete to keep students. They improve, and they start to look more appealing than private schools.

And then there's the natural selection of the uneducated kids. I think most people this concerned about their children's education will pick the better schools, and not just one's that confirm their world views. I don't care how cheap a creationist school would make their tuition- I wouldn't send a child there.

Yeah, but then again, you aren't pushing for creationism/ID to be taught in public schools; in fact, quite the contrary.

A lot of these folks will send their kids wherever their pastor recommends. And THAT sort of evolutionary pressure will in many cases gravitate towards religious fundamentalism and extremism.

667 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:05:38pm
668 Emphasis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:05:45pm

As it seems we can't get away from arguing about this subject I will again pose the question. With regards to the elections and the impact that creationism may have on the results, I find any link ludicrous.

"I think about evolution and creationism and I don’t find any difficulty in accepting both. Probably I am not as smart as all of those that are dogmatic in their beliefs. There are things that I would love for someone to explain to me. For example:

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant? You would think that you make your life so much harder, especially if like in most examples the female is the one that has to raise them feed them and protect them. However, they appear to be imprinted with the need to carry out that function, even though it is obvious it affects them in a negative way. It would then seem that this drive is imprinted in them, like a computer program. The question then is who was the programmer?"

669 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:05:54pm

re: #664 Occasional Reader

Tell me there's something wrong with a divine being like Adriana hitching herself with this dork.

Cleaned up, he might not be so bad.

Courage, OR. Courage.

670 jantjepietje  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:06:23pm

Doesn't Jindall have a degree in biology gotten at an Ivy Leage University?

671 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:06:27pm

re: #665 buzzsawmonkey

You go into business for yourself. Open up a second-floor office with a neon sign in the window of a hand, and lettering that offers "Physics Readings."

Everyone looking for scientific solutions to their problems will beat a path to your door.

I could try to hear voices on a crystal radio.

672 USBeast  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:07:05pm

re: #658 Kosh's Shadow

I'd have to put my TV behind a shatterproof screen, and take extra doses of blood pressure medicine. I'm not watching, and I don't care if they do come to take me to the re-education camps.

"Wait a minute! You can't take me to a reeducation camp!"

"Why not?"

"Because I was never educated in the first place!"

No that's not from anything. I just made it up.

673 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:07:50pm

re: #665 buzzsawmonkey

Open up a second-floor office with a neon sign in the window of a hand, and lettering that offers "Physics Readings."

Another option; open a lingerie shop, "G-String Theory".

674 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:08:04pm

re: #660 Soona'

Conservatism is still surviving even among young people coming out of our liberal public school system that we've had for the last three decades. I think that the ideals, principles,and freedoms of our constitution are much bigger than one subject in a school's cirriculum.

And one of those constitutional freedoms is the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment, which forbids religious dogma indoctrination in public schools.

You can't pick and choose which constitutional principles you like, and which ones you don't - unless you sanna change your name to Mike Huckabee.

675 Dragonwolf  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:08:08pm

re: #644 sphincter

To be honest, at this point I see it as hit or miss depending on the school district, the individual school and the parents. In the right combination things are great, otherwise, not so much.

In our school district my son attends one high school where fights and police are routine and my daughter attends a different one whose principal was just named national principal of the year (or something close to that). If we had known earlier that we had a choice, he never would have gone where he did.

676 avanti  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:08:10pm

re: #576 jim in virginia

If you haven't yet, talk to Hopsice. They are good folks.
Prayers for you and yours.

My wife's mother passed last year,and the hospice people were wonderful. She died in her own bed, with the family nearby and thanks to the morphine, was not in pain.

677 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:08:21pm

re: #621 Sharmuta

Goldwater not only predicted the desire of the RR to hijack the conservative movement, he also predicted it's destructive potential. And yet- here we are....

Where we are right now is not from effects of the religious right but because our presidential candidate and the republicans in congress weren't conservatives at all. McCain at best was a left leaning moderate.

678 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:09:15pm

re: #666 Salamantis

Yeah, but then again, you aren't pushing for creationism/ID to be taught in public schools; in fact, quite the contrary.

A lot of these folks will send their kids wherever their pastor recommends. And THAT sort of evolutionary pressure will in many cases gravitate towards religious fundamentalism and extremism.

NOT ALL FUNDAMENTALISTS ARE ANTI-SCIENCE. The Kid's school is very fundamental but, science is taught from third grade and up. In fact, he's already learning about fossils and their dates are given as fact. He's also been taught about carbon-dating.

679 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:09:29pm
680 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:09:45pm

re: #673 Occasional Reader

Another option; open a lingerie shop, "G-String Theory".

Now THAT is proven science...

681 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:09:50pm

re: #668 Emphasis

Is that supposed to be a proof for ID? That women get pregnant? Or are you like most propenents just trying to get to "Science leads to killin peeple!" by circuitous route?

682 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:09:57pm

re: #640 USBeast

Thanks. She is being moved back to the nursing home and will be out of it until morning I'm told. I have several crossword puzzles saved up. They served me well during my daughter's heart surgery.

the last couple of weeks of my dad's illness, we kept a card table with a puzzle on it. Not as much mental need as a crossword yet it was something to do with our hands and concentration. We knew there was nothing we could do but give him his meds and keep him as comfortable as possible (a foot bath and lotion rub will do wonders for her state of mind.)

There were lots of us rotating in and out (large family) and so as one left the next could take over. Even the hospice people put a puzzle piece in occasionally. The minister did too.

Check in with us when you can.

683 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:10:06pm

re: #667 buzzsawmonkey

Many of them do. Some with information from our national labs nicely entered in their computers.

Now, that gives me pause.

684 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:10:13pm

re: #656 MandyManners

Will they all go home when they're done?

Most of them will try to stay.

685 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:11:15pm

re: #684 Soona'

Most of them will try to stay.

I hope we keep them.

686 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:11:19pm

re: #668 Emphasis

As it seems we can't get away from arguing about this subject I will again pose the question. With regards to the elections and the impact that creationism may have on the results, I find any link ludicrous.

"I think about evolution and creationism and I don’t find any difficulty in accepting both. Probably I am not as smart as all of those that are dogmatic in their beliefs. There are things that I would love for someone to explain to me. For example:

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant? You would think that you make your life so much harder, especially if like in most examples the female is the one that has to raise them feed them and protect them. However, they appear to be imprinted with the need to carry out that function, even though it is obvious it affects them in a negative way. It would then seem that this drive is imprinted in them, like a computer program. The question then is who was the programmer?"

And I will once again post my answer; the same one I reply with every time you regurgitate this post:

Organisms possess the genetic urge to produce copies of their genes (offspring). Those species that didn't possess that urge died out of the gene pool very quickly, and individuals within the species that lack such an urge do not pass their genes along within the species. It's a matter of simple environmental selection, and no intelligent purposive programmer is required.

Given that some ancient animals genetically mutated to possess this urge, or others mutated so that they did not, the ones that lacked the urge died out without reproducing, and only the ones that possessed it remained in the gene pool - because only they reproduced and passed on their genes.

Evolution is responsible for the presence of the reproductive program, just as surely as it is responsible for the presence of the anatomical machinery by means of which such an urge is effected, and the genetic program that causes such machinery to manifest in the organism.

687 sattv4u2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:11:30pm

re: #591 Salamantis

Should childless citizens then be exempt from property taxes? Or is one of the prices of US citizenship to provide free public education for America's youth?

And as far as accreditation goes, that would dwindle as the political power of the graduated RR-mill-school voters grew.


NO,because they still #1 can and #2 will benefit from an educated populace
Ido however beleive that senior citizens should be exempt from the portion of property taxes that goes to public ed

688 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:12:19pm

re: #678 MandyManners

NOT ALL FUNDAMENTALISTS ARE ANTI-SCIENCE. The Kid's school is very fundamental but, science is taught from third grade and up. In fact, he's already learning about fossils and their dates are given as fact. He's also been taught about carbon-dating.

No, but a LOT of them are. Particularly when the churches that run them are creationist.

689 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:12:24pm

re: #668 Emphasis

It would then seem that this drive is imprinted in them, like a computer program. The question then is who was the programmer?"

You're familiar with the logical fallacy known as "begging the question"?

690 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:13:10pm

re: #663 Kosh's Shadow

What was the fuel in Battlestar again? The stuff they make in that dirty old ship.

Tylium got to go

691 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:13:40pm

re: #677 Soona'

You're right- they're mot conservatives- they're Christian Socialists.

692 dentate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:13:43pm

re: #668 Emphasis

If the instinct for self-preservation is a predominant if not the predominant one in the animal world, why do the female of the species becomes pregnant?

No pregnancy, no next generation. End of species.

Idiot.

693 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:13:53pm

re: #653 opnion
Now Vince,he could deliver one hell of a state of the uniom adress!

694 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:14:24pm

re: #687 sattv4u2

NO,because they still #1 can and #2 will benefit from an educated populace
Ido however beleive that senior citizens should be exempt from the portion of property taxes that goes to public ed

we are soooo benifiting from our "educated populance" now, aren't we?/

695 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:15:03pm

re: #668 Emphasis


However, they appear to be imprinted with the need to carry out that function, even though it is obvious it affects them in a negative way.

My guess is that you had that effect on your mother.

696 Kragar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:15:41pm

Polygamy UK: This special Mail investigation reveals how thousands of men are milking the benefits system to support several wives

Officially, such unions are punishable by up to seven years in prison. They were first declared illegal in England and Wales in 1604, when the Parliament of James I took action to restrain 'evil persons' marrying more than one wife. Parliament ruled that anyone found guilty of the crime would be sentenced to death.

In the four centuries since, bigamy (having two wives) and polygamy (more than two) has been frowned on by the state, the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church.

Yet it is clear that officialdom is turning a blind eye to such marriages.

A recent review by four Government departments - the Treasury, the Work and Pensions Department, the Inland Revenue and the Home Office - has concluded that 1,000 men in the United Kingdom are now polygamists, although some say the figure is higher.

What is more, the review found, a Muslim man can claim state support of more than £10,000 a year to keep his wives, if the wedding took place in one of those countries where polygamy is commonplace, such as Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia and across huge tracts of Africa.

For example, a man can receive &£92.80 a week in income support for wife number one, and a further £33.65p for each of his subsequent spouses.

Therefore, if he has four wives - the maximum permitted under Islamic teachings - he can claim nearly £800 a month from the British taxpayer.

Controversially, a polygamist is also entitled to more generous housing benefits and bigger council houses to reflect the large size of his family. He is also able to claim £1,000 a year in child benefit for each of his growing brood.

697 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:15:42pm

Later.

698 sattv4u2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:15:52pm

re: #688 Salamantis

No, but a LOT of them are. Particularly when the churches that run them are creationist.

Do you know of any? I went to parochial school. I played sports against most of the parochial schools in the Boston area. My son goes to a private 'Christian" based school. He plays sports against many other private christian schools in and around Atlanta
NONE of the above are or have been Anti Science

699 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:15:55pm

re: #688 Salamantis

No, but a LOT of them are. Particularly when the churches that run them are creationist.

The church that established his school is creationist but, it also teaches that God gave us a brain and that we're to use it.

700 sphincter  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:16:14pm

re: #670 jantjepietje

Brown, and a Rhoades Scholar.

701 sattv4u2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:16:17pm

re: #694 brookly red

we are soooo benifiting from our "educated populance" now, aren't we?/

"Can I Super Size that for you Ma'am?"

702 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:16:19pm

re: #697 Occasional Reader

Later.

Tater.

703 callahan23  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:16:26pm

re: #692 dentate

No pregnancy, no next generation. End of species.

Idiot.

That nailed it. Gosh - %&§#%&$
You saved me a lot of ranting.

704 USBeast  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:16:28pm

re: #692 dentate

No pregnancy, no next generation. End of species.

Idiot.

"Idiot" was out of line.

"She who faces death by torture for each life beneath her breast..." Kipling

705 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:16:41pm
706 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:16:47pm

Here's that "instinct for self preservation" in action...

[Link: noblesseoblige.org...]

707 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:17:16pm

re: #674 Salamantis

And one of those constitutional freedoms is the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment, which forbids religious dogma indoctrination in public schools.

You can't pick and choose which constitutional principles you like, and which ones you don't - unless you sanna change your name to Mike Huckabee.

I survived prayer in school. I survived preachers sometimes coming in and teaching ancient biblical history. It was mostly, if I remember correctly, very boring but every once in a while a correlation to what was happening in the present world could be interestingly made. Your fear of anything that's of God is telling.

708 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:17:20pm

re: #698 sattv4u2

Do you know of any? I went to parochial school. I played sports against most of the parochial schools in the Boston area. My son goes to a private 'Christian" based school. He plays sports against many other private christian schools in and around Atlanta
NONE of the above are or have been Anti Science

I don't know of a single church-based school in this area that is anti-science, either.

709 tradewind  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:18:20pm

Defining creativity, talent, and entertainment down.
[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

710 callahan23  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:19:15pm

re: #705 buzzsawmonkey

"Polygamingmilking the system" is, I think, the correct term.

Would that also be appropriate?

711 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:19:16pm

re: #708 MandyManners

I don't know of a single church-based school in this area that is anti-science, either.

Most of them are not, when people pay they want a good education.

712 Kragar  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:19:51pm

re: #709 tradewind

Defining creativity, talent, and entertainment down.
[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Another flop in the making.

713 tradewind  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:19:54pm

re: #708 MandyManners

Our two best (if you consider number of ivy admissions, percentage of national merit finalists/scholars) private schools in this pretty large city are both affiliated with churches, and their science departments are top notch.
And we're in the heart of Dixie.

714 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:20:01pm
715 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:20:31pm

re: #691 Sharmuta

You're right- they're mot conservatives- they're Christian Socialists.

Oh plllleeeaaase!

716 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:20:34pm

re: #707 Soona'

I survived prayer in school. I survived preachers sometimes coming in and teaching ancient biblical history. It was mostly, if I remember correctly, very boring but every once in a while a correlation to what was happening in the present world could be interestingly made. Your fear of anything that's of God is telling.

So you wouldn't object if public schools also had a CAIR day to come and speak to the kids?

717 tradewind  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:21:03pm

re: #712 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Penn will milk that Plame game for all it's worth.

718 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:21:09pm

re: #695 Naso Tang

My guess is that you had that effect on your mother.

Cute!
*rimshot*

719 sattv4u2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:21:16pm

re: #708 MandyManners

I don't know of a single church-based school in this area that is anti-science, either.

Next time I "see" you, please let me know if Salamantis comes up with any that are. I would be very interested in reaserching them. I have to go now. My son nedds to get to soccer practice

(I tell him ,,,,,,, two words will help your dad for your college !,,,, SOCCER SCHOLARSHIP)

720 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:21:24pm

re: #678 MandyManners

NOT ALL FUNDAMENTALISTS ARE ANTI-SCIENCE. The Kid's school is very fundamental but, science is taught from third grade and up. In fact, he's already learning about fossils and their dates are given as fact. He's also been taught about carbon-dating.

This is a crucial point, but it is the creationism/ID proponents get the most attention from the media, for any number of reasons.

A hypothesis:
With billions in vouchers at stake, the leaders of the ID crowd not only expect to lose their fight for the public school curriculum, they will profit from doing so. The fight itself generates plenty of publicity, most of it wrapped up in pithy little sound-bites and easily digestible claims.

721 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:21:40pm

re: #715 Soona'

Then explain so-called "conservatives" spending money like drunken sailors and the democrats stealing fiscal restraint from us during the election?

722 firepilot  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:21:51pm

Leonidas, you are incorrect.

I recounted this story yesterday - I flew home with my family to Newark airport two nights ago and took my son (he's 7) with me to get our car. As it was about 25 degrees outside, I let the car warm up for a few minutes - and my son asked me if I was wasting gas. I explained to him that the car runs more efficiently, and will last longer, if it is allowed to warm up properly in cold weather.

No, that is what you DO NOT want to do to help your engine. That is more of an urban legend now, nobody recommends a car to idle in the cold for several minutes to warm up. You are better off to just start driving it after it starts, the oil heats up faster that way, and you end up with less time that the engine is running with cold oil, and a cold engine idling for several minutes does waste gas, again it will warm up faster if you just start driving it.

Your son is correct. Be proud :)

723 Cicero05  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:22:11pm

re: #668 Emphasis

Probably I am not as smart as all of those that are dogmatic in their beliefs.

Self-effacing and contemptuous in the same sentence. Cool.

724 Wilderstad  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:23:33pm

re: #722 firepilot

That will only work if your interior doesn't fog up. Rarely the case in really cold weather. In order to keep the windows clear, the car DOES need warming up.

725 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:24:12pm
726 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:24:13pm

re: #718 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Cute!
*rimshot*

Sorry to be dumb, but I don't get the link.

727 tradewind  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:24:46pm

re: #720 Shiplord Kirel

The we-had-pet-dinosaurs crowd is just not taken seriously in any of the decent schools that I know here, and most of them are church-run or affiliated in some way...
I know the the creationists are getting a lot of press, but I just can't take the threat seriously. If they were going to be making huge inroads, it seems to me as if they'd be making them in my backyard, and I don't see any evidence of it.

728 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:24:51pm

re: #715 Soona'

Oh plllleeeaaase!

What are you trying to say, that McCain wasn't a pro-life Christian? He was. That Bush wasn't ? He Was. Did both propose more socialistic principles at several junctures than conservative / constitutional principles? They did.

729 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:25:02pm
Being a conservative in America traditionally has meant that one holds a deep, abiding respect for the Constitution. We conservatives believe sincerely in the integrity of the Constitution. We treasure the freedoms that document protects

-Barry Goldwater

730 Irenike  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:25:17pm

re: #686 Salamantis

And I will once again post my answer; the same one I reply with every time you regurgitate this post:

Organisms possess the genetic urge to produce copies of their genes (offspring). Those species that didn't possess that urge died out of the gene pool very quickly, and individuals within the species that lack such an urge do not pass their genes along within the species. It's a matter of simple environmental selection, and no intelligent purposive programmer is required.

Given that some ancient animals genetically mutated to possess this urge, or others mutated so that they did not, the ones that lacked the urge died out without reproducing, and only the ones that possessed it remained in the gene pool - because only they reproduced and passed on their genes.


Then why does homosexuality exist? Surely being gay would cause homosexuality to die out in the evolutionary scheme of things. And I'm not talking about bi-sexuality. I'm talking about men who really cannot get it up for a woman.

731 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:25:33pm

re: #711 Thanos

Most of them are not, when people pay they want a good education.

I wouldn't pay that humongous tuition if it weren't.

732 callahan23  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:25:40pm

re: #706 Thanos

Here's that "instinct for self preservation" in action...

[Link: noblesseoblige.org...]

Gosh that really made me (never crying bastard) crying.
Incredibly courageous. What fine specimen of 'mensch' they were.
Sob.

733 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:26:07pm

re: #713 tradewind

Our two best (if you consider number of ivy admissions, percentage of national merit finalists/scholars) private schools in this pretty large city are both affiliated with churches, and their science departments are top notch.
And we're in the heart of Dixie.

There are some who believe that Christians are dumber than dirt.

734 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:26:15pm

re: #696 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Polygamy UK: This special Mail investigation reveals how thousands of men are milking the benefits system to support several wives

Well the daiymail focuses mostly one "demographic" but on the real side here in the US it is much more common than you would like to think to have several "families"... and no it's not just illegals, plenty of home grown do it too. It is really pretty easy, it's not like the system is going to say no to women & children.

735 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:26:35pm
736 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:26:48pm

re: #716 Sharmuta

So you wouldn't object if public schools also had a CAIR day to come and speak to the kids?

You know CAIR is just itching.

737 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:26:57pm

While some Americans might find Goldwater's stand against all interaction between religion and politics too sweeping, many would agree with his strong commitment to individual freedom of conscience on issues as diverse as religion in schools, gay rights or abortion. In 1994 he told The Los Angeles Times, "A lot of so-called conservatives don't know what the word means. They think I've turned liberal because I believe a woman has a right to an abortion. That's a decision that's up to the pregnant woman, not up to the pope or some do-gooders or the Religious Right."

738 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:27:08pm
739 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:27:22pm

re: #727 tradewind

What state are you in so we can point out which creationist politicians you might have, and what bills might be coming?

740 jantjepietje  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:27:42pm

re: #700 sphincter

Yeah I've just been doing some reading on him but I just can't wrap my head around it. I mean if it was a liberal arts major maybe he studied biology. Even it where to be pure for political gain it doesn't make any sense maybe it serves him a little in Louisiana but any larger national ambitions will be affected. I am just completely lost on why he would do this.

741 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:27:43pm

re: #694 brookly red

we are soooo benifiting from our "educated populance" now, aren't we?/

If we allow our public school science education to be polluted beyond effectivenes by creationist dogma, you'll find out exactly HOW much we are benefitting from it now, because we'll be benefitting from it a helluva lot less.

742 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:28:08pm

re: #726 Naso Tang

Sorry to be dumb, but I don't get the link.

Merely kudos for your put-down of Emphasis. If childbearing is such an all-fired negative as he says, then WTF is HE doing here? I don't think he/she gets it.

743 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:28:35pm

re: #720 Shiplord Kirel

creationism/ID proponents get the most attention from the media, for any number of reasons.

I think it's to tar the GOP in any way imaginable.

744 goddessoftheclassroom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:29:03pm

re: #718 pre-Boomer Marine brat

MWAH!

745 Cicero05  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:29:37pm

re: #743 MandyManners

I think it's to tar the GOP in any way imaginable.

Give that lady a cigar!

746 tradewind  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:29:55pm

re: #730 Irenike

Surely being gay would cause homosexuality to die out in the evolutionary scheme of things.


Not down here in the South. I can't tell you how many homosexually oriented/gay men (not bi) marry, procreate, and then, after the children are in college,( or their parents are dead), come out, leave their wives and live an honest life. Some stay married, and I can't pretend to understand their wives' tolerance for misery, but I have more than a few friends whose fathers came out as gay eventually.

747 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:30:01pm

Congress shuts down emails from anyone but people living in reps districts.
—Purple Avenger

[Link: ace.mu.nu...]

Of course, one can always lie and type in some zip code from the district in question, but it certainly seems they're getting a tad touchier about people contacting them these days than in years past. Why that might be is a real puzzler...this being the most open and ethical congress ever.

748 Russkilitlover  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:30:08pm

re: #709 tradewind

Defining creativity, talent, and entertainment down.
[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Oh, for crying out loud! This isn't just annoying, it's attempting to solidify fiction as fact via dramatic representation. How many people get their "history from movies and no where else?

"Historical Documents" - Galaxy Quest.

749 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:30:17pm

Oven buzzer's going. bbl

750 nevergiveup  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:30:56pm

re: #749 MandyManners

Oven buzzer's going. bbl

Your pregnant?

751 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:31:20pm

re: #730 Irenike

First of all- homosexuals can reproduce and have, whether through in vitro/surrogacy. living a double life, or the like.

Second- there is still research into the causes of homosexuality. Two straight people can have a homosexual offspring. This "homosexual" argument against evolution really reeks of a deeper issue when people raise it, and it's not pretty.

752 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:31:39pm

re: #741 Salamantis

If we allow our public school science education to be polluted beyond effectivenes by creationist dogma, you'll find out exactly HOW much we are benefitting from it now, because we'll be benefitting from it a helluva lot less.

I was not sugusteing that we allow dogma in public schools. I was just commenting on the poor performance of public schools.

753 Irenike  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:31:41pm

re: #727 tradewind

The we-had-pet-dinosaurs crowd is just not taken seriously in any of the decent schools that I know here, and most of them are church-run or affiliated in some way...
I know the the creationists are getting a lot of press, but I just can't take the threat seriously. If they were going to be making huge inroads, it seems to me as if they'd be making them in my backyard, and I don't see any evidence of it.

I'm with you on this one. I homeschool my kids. We teach both Torah and evolution to our kids. The creationists are not the ones telling me I should send my kids to public schools. They're all in favor of my freedom of choice to homeschool. And they don't try to argue me out of teaching evolution. It's the secular lefties who are all uptight about the fact that I homeschool. They are upset because my kids are missing out on the socialist indoctrination about how great bigger government is, how wonderful Obama is, and why climate change is such a huge disaster that warrants yet more government intervention.

I think folks like Randy Barnett don't like creationists, and so they believe a creationist could never get elected. They are confusing their own aversion to a creationist candidate with un-electability. The two concepts are not the same.

754 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:31:42pm

re: #698 sattv4u2

Do you know of any? I went to parochial school. I played sports against most of the parochial schools in the Boston area. My son goes to a private 'Christian" based school. He plays sports against many other private christian schools in and around Atlanta
NONE of the above are or have been Anti Science

Yes, I do. Pensacola Christian College, where I live, is anti-science, and it also runs primary and secondary school program. And it is BIG - big and RICH. They make a lot of money from A Beka Books, a creationist printing house that publishes a lot of that Disco Dewde school propaganda.

755 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:31:53pm

re: #744 goddessoftheclassroom

MWAH!

MWAH ? ? ?

756 Bob Dillon  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:31:56pm

re: #747 nevergiveup

Congress shuts down emails from anyone but people living in reps districts.
—Purple Avenger

[Link: ace.mu.nu...]

Of course, one can always lie and type in some zip code from the district in question, but it certainly seems they're getting a tad touchier about people contacting them these days than in years past. Why that might be is a real puzzler...this being the most open and ethical congress ever.

Google Earth can be useful at times.
/

757 Dianna  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:32:32pm

re: #730 Irenike

Uncles.

Gay men help their sisters' children. That's how their genes carry on.

758 goddessoftheclassroom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:32:54pm

re: #755 pre-Boomer Marine brat

MWAH ? ? ?

I found it myself.

759 dentate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:32:55pm

re: #730 Irenike

Then why does homosexuality exist? Surely being gay would cause homosexuality to die out in the evolutionary scheme of things. And I'm not talking about bi-sexuality. I'm talking about men who really cannot get it up for a woman.

Umm, because their sisters and brothers have babies? Sheesh. Sociobiology 1.0

760 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:32:55pm
761 brookly red  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:33:30pm

suggesting... see what I mean.

762 katemaclaren  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:33:49pm

Hey guys--I'm quite sure there are PLENTY of Democrats who are creationists, don't you think? So, why not start outing THEM--that would at least level the playing field and lend some sunshine to the issue.

Seems to me that doing so would dilute the effect of the issue and let other candidates, more logical, shall I say, emerge.

763 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:33:58pm
764 BignJames  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:34:17pm

re: #748 Russkilitlover

Oh, for crying out loud! This isn't just annoying, it's attempting to solidify fiction as fact via dramatic representation. How many people get their "history from movies and no where else?

"Historical Documents" - Galaxy Quest.

Waitaminnit....you sayin' Galaxy Quest wasn't real?

765 albusteve  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:34:25pm

interesting blub fron Gov Huntsman of Utah...maybe it was posted

[Link: washingtontimes.com...]

766 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:34:44pm

re: #756 Bobibutu
sure!it helped some guy finally find atlantis....oh it wasn't...nevermind..lol

767 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:34:50pm

re: #716 Sharmuta

So you wouldn't object if public schools also had a CAIR day to come and speak to the kids?

I believe that every community (ie. parents) should have the freedom to choose what their children are taught as long as it upholds the principles and ideas of the US Constitution. (And, no, the Constitution says nothing about freedom from religion). CAIR is not a good idea solely because it encourages the overthrow of any government that isn't islam.
If a parent feels that the subject matter of their school is lacking or shouldn't be taught, then they have recourse locally or through legislation. If they still feel their schools are lacking, they can change schools, enroll their kids in private school, move, or any other of a number of things.

768 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:34:54pm

re: #760 buzzsawmonkey

The recurrence of homosexual behavior in generation after generation is G-d's way of ensuring that women in every age will be fashionably dressed.

It's all part of the divine plan.

I thought it was so women could have male friends who weren't always trying to get down their pants. :p

769 Irenike  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:34:56pm

re: #751 Sharmuta

First of all- homosexuals can reproduce and have, whether through in vitro/surrogacy. living a double life, or the like.

Second- there is still research into the causes of homosexuality. Two straight people can have a homosexual offspring. This "homosexual" argument against evolution really reeks of a deeper issue when people raise it, and it's not pretty.

Homosexuality has been around long before all the nice reproductive technology. So, regardless of the environment, it survives.

What "not pretty" issue does my question raise? I am pursuing this line of inquiry sincerely, not with nefarious intent.

770 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:35:52pm
771 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:36:04pm

re: #707 Soona'

I survived prayer in school. I survived preachers sometimes coming in and teaching ancient biblical history. It was mostly, if I remember correctly, very boring but every once in a while a correlation to what was happening in the present world could be interestingly made. Your fear of anything that's of God is telling.

Your desire to sublimate the US Constitution to the Bible is what is telling. I value this constitutional democracy we have, and view people like you, who wanna replace it with a theocracy, as a clear and present danger to it.

And there are many different religions, with many different prayers, and some of them don't pray at all. And there are nonreligious kids, too. NONE of them should be marginalized in public school in order to salve your religious righteousness.

772 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:36:49pm

re: #758 goddessoftheclassroom

I found it myself.

LOL!
Better than your usual!

773 Bob Dillon  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:37:14pm

re: #766 Boondock St. Bender

sure!it helped some guy finally find atlantis....oh it wasn't...nevermind..lol

I confess, I have used it to ID addresses of a house for sale in a congressional district of someone I just HAD to send a message to right now.

774 goddessoftheclassroom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:37:27pm

re: #772 pre-Boomer Marine brat

LOL!
Better than your usual!

LOL!

Notice that the kitteh doesn't seem all that concerned.

775 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:37:50pm
776 Russkilitlover  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:37:52pm

re: #763 buzzsawmonkey

Or should I say, "the too, too divine plan"?

Or even, Divine's plan.

777 fish  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:38:10pm

re: #740 jantjepietje

Yeah I've just been doing some reading on him but I just can't wrap my head around it. I mean if it was a liberal arts major maybe he studied biology. Even it where to be pure for political gain it doesn't make any sense maybe it serves him a little in Louisiana but any larger national ambitions will be affected. I am just completely lost on why he would do this.

I just re read the Law Jindal signed. I know I am in the vast minority here but I don't see anything offensive about it. By state and federal law a public school cannot teach religion. By the new law itself a teacher cannot bring in any materials that are not approved by the local school board, and the state school board has trump authority over it all. In addition to evolution the bill mentions controversies in Global Warming and the Origin of Life (2 subjects with a large amount of debatable non religious scientific data that would most likely be covered in a baised way in most current text books.)

778 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:39:30pm
779 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:40:04pm

re: #774 goddessoftheclassroom

LOL!

Notice that the kitteh doesn't seem all that concerned.

Well, what should one expect?
Consider the "source".

780 teleskiguy  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:40:14pm

re: #267 Shiplord Kirel

The alliance of religious and political conservatism is little more than a linguistic coincidence, a shotgun wedding of incompatible ideologies. A divorce is long overdue.

Wow! Exactly what I've been thinking for years. The Religious Right, the Southern Strategy, all need to go the way of the Dodo Bird. Conservatism needs to be defined as Goldwater defined it, we need more Classical Liberalism of Jefferson!

781 Irenike  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:40:15pm

re: #759 dentate

Umm, because their sisters and brothers have babies? Sheesh. Sociobiology 1.0

But every organism, if the population is big enough, has brothers and sisters who will bear successful offspring. That does not mean that unsuccessful "aunts" and "uncles" will still see their traits passed down to subsequent generations for very long. If that were the case, then certain traits would never die out, and hence there would be no evolutionary progress.

How is my line of inquiry flawed?

782 avanti  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:40:23pm

Now this anti evolution guy is claiming the mind and brain are different, even contending that a brain dead Terri Scivo, still had a "mind". My bet is he wanted to say soul, but thought better.

link.

783 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:40:37pm
784 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:41:04pm

re: #721 Sharmuta

Then explain so-called "conservatives" spending money like drunken sailors and the democrats stealing fiscal restraint from us during the election?

Please read my post again. I did not say that our congressmen were conservative. But you've just made my point. Republicans stayed home because all they had seen from their representatives and senators was a bunch of ass-lickers sucking up to liberal ideals. The religious right had nothing to do with this election.

785 Gus  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:41:09pm

The Intelligent Design movement is more about politics than it is about the understanding of biological evolution. In their continuing attempts to promote creationism as a study equal to that of evolution their main goal is not to provide a supplementary field of study but to argue against evolution. The main method of creationism is to argue against evolution utilizing their pseudo-analysis of primitive texts or literature as well as a variety of distorted, false scientific methods and research.

The goal of teaching evolution stands on its own. Unlike creationism, evolutionary science stands on its own merits, science and history and does not engage in polemics by describing itself in what it is not or countering opposing political or superstitions. Those problems yet unanswered by science are viewed as opportunities for further research and not discarded or chided in contrarian parochial rhetoric.

ID, creationism, et al, is also a part of a continuing strategy in what they view as a cultural war. The creationist adherents thus attach the cliched grievances and alarmist rhetoric of this cultural war to evolution be seeing it as a progression or co-conspirator to homosexuality, Satanism, Marxism, abortion, liberalism, and the Democratic Party. These examples are just a small example of the near paranoid and delusional logic they apply to the creationist body politic: it is their modus operandi.

786 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:41:33pm

re: #727 tradewind

The we-had-pet-dinosaurs crowd is just not taken seriously in any of the decent schools that I know here, and most of them are church-run or affiliated in some way...
I know the the creationists are getting a lot of press, but I just can't take the threat seriously. If they were going to be making huge inroads, it seems to me as if they'd be making them in my backyard, and I don't see any evidence of it.

They're depending on other folks not taking them seriously, while those who DO take them seriously multiply and proselytize.

787 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:42:49pm

re: #767 Soona'

When I was growing up, my father worked very hard to keep me away from fundamentalist influences. He removed me from several churches and other similar prayer groups and such the moment he got a whiff of it. I never understood at the time what was going on, but being a good girl, I accepted my father's decisions and moved on.

However- I do understand now, and I'm quite thankful to my father concerning my spiritual upbringing. It was his right to raise me this way, and it's my right to raise my kids my way. Had my father learned a creationist was speaking at my school about the Bible, I would have been kept home, and the ACLU would have gotten a call from my father. And rightly so. It is not the place of a public school to dictate to other people's kids what they should think spiritually/religiously- period.

788 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:43:11pm

re: #777 fish

Because there aren't any "scientific controversies" in evolution that aren't already being taught. If you know of one, please explain without linking to ICR, DI, or AIG nonsense.

789 tradewind  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:43:16pm

re: #733 MandyManners

Then they must have had their impressions of Christians forged by snake handlers and PTL theme parks. They could use exposure to less B.S. and more C.S. Lewis, for example.

790 nyc redneck  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:43:19pm

re: #107 spacejesus

I just hope the economy doesn't falter so badly, making Obama and the dems seen as such failures, that idiots like Jindal are swept into power in this country.

it's a rock and a hard place.

we could definitely be looking at a situation like that.
imagine the msm foists jindal on us.
and it's him or O.
has anyone given any thought how they would actually vote in a case like this.
or just sit it out.
and O gets 4 more yrs. to put the final nails in the coffin of our country.
this is a distinct possibility.
we need to find us a candidate.

791 dentate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:43:36pm

re: #777 fish

I just re read the Law Jindal signed. I know I am in the vast minority here but I don't see anything offensive about it. By state and federal law a public school cannot teach religion. By the new law itself a teacher cannot bring in any materials that are not approved by the local school board, and the state school board has trump authority over it all. In addition to evolution the bill mentions controversies in Global Warming and the Origin of Life (2 subjects with a large amount of debatable non religious scientific data that would most likely be covered in a baised way in most current text books.)

Teach the scientific method, at an early stage, so that children understand what theories, models, hypotheses, and hypothesis testing are. ID and creationism rely on confusing people with selective or deceptive presentations of "facts," as we see attempted on these threads. Holding up ID or creationism to the standards of science make it incontrovertible that these are not science. THAT's the "critical thinking skill" that we need to engender. The point is that Jindal's law and those like this try to sneak religion into the science classroom.

792 katemaclaren  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:43:45pm

re: #760 buzzsawmonkey

The recurrence of homosexual behavior in generation after generation is G-d's way of ensuring that women in every age will be fashionably dressed.

It's all part of the divine plan.

lol! My son was gay (he died of Aids in 1994)--and it was very hard for me to deal with his homosexuality, mainly because of my fear of Aids--and, my nightmare came true. I would like not to stereotype his behavior--but I can't. He was a great decorator, had a wonderful wit--and the rest of his brothers and sisters adored him. He laughed at himself--the stereotyping--camped it up sometimes, too--to great hilarity; he was never bitter. But big surprise. About a year after he died, a young woman called asking for him. When I told her what had happened, she asked to meet me. Seems like one night when he was trying to test his on sexuality, he had a one-night or so stand--(blush) and fathered a little boy. Can you imagine? Now, I have a grandchild who looks exactly like my son--and this little boy has a wonderful mother. Before this happened, I would have been furious at these turns of events so contrary to my values. Life is a lesson. What makes me sad is that my son never knew--and he would have been a great father.

793 katemaclaren  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:45:14pm

re: #770 ploome hineni

How very interesting!

794 tradewind  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:45:44pm

re: #754 Salamantis

I'd be interested in seeing the stats from their undergraduate program's college admissions, and SAT/ACT/Nat'l merit scores. If they truly teach only creationism in their science departments, those stats are going to suck....

795 goddessoftheclassroom  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:45:50pm

re: #792 katemaclaren

(katemaclaren}

I am so sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing your story.

Love never ends.

796 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:46:43pm

re: #782 avanti

Now this anti evolution guy is claiming the mind and brain are different, even contending that a brain dead Terri Scivo, still had a "mind". My bet is he wanted to say soul, but thought better.

link.

DI was big behind the Terry Schaivo controversy and the bills that went to congress in FL and nationally. Now they have the nation fired up from this and other "social legislation" and we've lost the house, the senate, and the presidency, along with probably a couple of supreme court nominations. They are so good at winning people into the tent....

797 katemaclaren  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:46:59pm

I say leave the theory of creationism to Sunday School. Those who want it in the schools--have a venue--use it.

798 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:47:26pm

Just a thought I had--I think the reason that evolution and global warming (sorry to bring it up, but you'll see my point in a second) are so controversial is that they have had certain "Therefores" attached to them.

Man evolved...therefore there is no God.

(There is no proof that God didn't use evolution and other natural processes to create the world. It's impossible to prove one way or the other.)

The world is getting hotter...therefore you must submit to eight million regulations, a way of life picked out by someone else, and the trashing of the US economy.

(Not that I have time for this, but it would be interesting to find out how many people proclaiming "cures" for global warming were recommending these cures before global warming.)

799 katemaclaren  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:47:39pm

re: #795 goddessoftheclassroom

(katemaclaren}

I am so sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing your story.

Love never ends.

You are so right. I am so grateful, too.

800 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:47:48pm

re: #777 fish

I just re read the Law Jindal signed. I know I am in the vast minority here but I don't see anything offensive about it. By state and federal law a public school cannot teach religion. By the new law itself a teacher cannot bring in any materials that are not approved by the local school board, and the state school board has trump authority over it all. In addition to evolution the bill mentions controversies in Global Warming and the Origin of Life (2 subjects with a large amount of debatable non religious scientific data that would most likely be covered in a baised way in most current text books.)

I have posted several articles explaining why these "academic freedom" bills are simply stalking horses for the "intelligent design" crowd. You must have missed them.

Here's the latest one I posted, just a few days ago:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

801 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:47:52pm

re: #784 Soona'

Please read my post again. I did not say that our congressmen were conservative. But you've just made my point. Republicans stayed home because all they had seen from their representatives and senators was a bunch of ass-lickers sucking up to liberal ideals. The religious right had nothing to do with this election.

You're not making the connection between the "conservatives" in Congress being members of the RR and that they're socialists in lamb's clothing. They are one in the same. In other words, it's the RR who are the RINOs.

802 tradewind  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:48:30pm

re: #775 ploome hineni

I tend to agree with you, but there are some of those cases where the wives were well aware from if not the start, pretty soon after, and decided to stay and play along. Who knows what goes on inside a marriage? Maybe some of the decisions were mutual.
But it does seem hard to imagine how it doesn't end up hurting the children badly, to one degree or another.

803 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:48:50pm

re: #771 Salamantis

Your desire to sublimate the US Constitution to the Bible is what is telling. I value this constitutional democracy we have, and view people like you, who wanna replace it with a theocracy, as a clear and present danger to it.

And there are many different religions, with many different prayers, and some of them don't pray at all. And there are nonreligious kids, too. NONE of them should be marginalized in public school in order to salve your religious righteousness.

You obviously know nothing about the beliefs of the founding fathers and what motivated them to write what they did in the constitution. I really don't think a further conversation with you is worth my time.

804 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:49:27pm
805 SpaceJesus  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:49:34pm

re: #790 nyc redneck

we could definitely be looking at a situation like that.
imagine the msm foists jindal on us.
and it's him or O.
has anyone given any thought how they would actually vote in a case like this.
or just sit it out.
and O gets 4 more yrs. to put the final nails in the coffin of our country.
this is a distinct possibility.
we need to find us a candidate.

I like Newt.

806 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:49:40pm

re: #730 Irenike

Then why does homosexuality exist? Surely being gay would cause homosexuality to die out in the evolutionary scheme of things. And I'm not talking about bi-sexuality. I'm talking about men who really cannot get it up for a woman.

They did a study of women in post WW II Germany who were subjected to extreme stress, and discovered that this caused a much larger proportion of them to produce a different hormonal bath during a critical period in gestation, which caused certain midbrain structures, like the hippocampus, to grow differently (the difference between straight and gay hippocampuses - both make and female - can be seen on cortical MRIs).

Why would we have evolved such a tendency? Well, when times are tough or dangerous, it is better, evolutionarily speaking, for the preservation of the family's genes that some siblings remain childless, so that they can devote their time and resources towards feeding, caring for, and protecting their straight siblings' children. And indeed it turns out that the straight female siblings of gays tend to have more children than average.

807 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:49:45pm

re: #727 tradewind

Pet dinosaurs? Forget the unicorn. I want one of those.

/Some people get all the cool toys.

808 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:50:10pm
Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?

-James Madison, Father of the Constitution

809 teleskiguy  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:50:20pm

re: #792 katemaclaren
That is touching. Really.

810 albusteve  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:50:26pm

re: #790 nyc redneck

we could definitely be looking at a situation like that.
imagine the msm foists jindal on us.
and it's him or O.
has anyone given any thought how they would actually vote in a case like this.
or just sit it out.
and O gets 4 more yrs. to put the final nails in the coffin of our country.
this is a distinct possibility.
we need to find us a candidate.

in truth I'd rather conservatives resist creationists with a healthy economy and a full pocket book...survival of free capitalism trumps everything else imo...Jindal is creepy tho

811 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:50:33pm
I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together.

-James Madison, Father of the Constitution

812 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:51:07pm

re: #802 tradewind

I tend to agree with you, but there are some of those cases where the wives were well aware from if not the start, pretty soon after, and decided to stay and play along. Who knows what goes on inside a marriage? Maybe some of the decisions were mutual.
But it does seem hard to imagine how it doesn't end up hurting the children badly, to one degree or another.

I've known a few men who were hurt pretty badly by their wives coming out of the closet. Generally they have no clue.

813 dentate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:51:24pm

re: #781 Irenike

But every organism, if the population is big enough, has brothers and sisters who will bear successful offspring. That does not mean that unsuccessful "aunts" and "uncles" will still see their traits passed down to subsequent generations for very long. If that were the case, then certain traits would never die out, and hence there would be no evolutionary progress.

How is my line of inquiry flawed?

Sociobiology argument:

1) gay aunts and uncles may contribute to the successful upbringing of their nieces and nephews.
2) those nieces and nephews are likely to carry some of the genes that predispose to homosexuality, even if those genes are not expressed.
3) those genes are then passed to the next generation.

Heterozygote advantage argument:

Take sickle cell disease. This is a nasty inherited disease in Africa. Get a sickle cell gene from each parent, you will likely die before reaching reproductive age. Yet, inherit one gene (sickle cell trait), and you are relatively resistant to malaria, and therefore have a survival advantage over someone with normal hemoglobin genes. There are many, many such examples.

It could well be the case that inheriting some but not all of the "gay" genes (it is likely that there are more than one so that the inheritance is more complex than for sickle cell) confers a survival advantage.

814 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:51:30pm
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy.

-James Madison, Father of the Constitution

815 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:51:59pm

re: #795 goddessoftheclassroom

Goddess, I left a question for you at #14 on the new thread.
You'll have to read/skim the linked AP article.
The writer is ditzy.

816 avanti  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:52:14pm

re: #796 Thanos

DI was big behind the Terry Schaivo controversy and the bills that went to congress in FL and nationally. Now they have the nation fired up from this and other "social legislation" and we've lost the house, the senate, and the presidency, along with probably a couple of supreme court nominations. They are so good at winning people into the tent....

Thanks, I was unaware of their involvement but do recall how energized GW and the GOP were in the case.

817 Eowyn2  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:52:54pm

re: #792 katemaclaren

wow. my condolences on your loss and my joy at your finding.

818 bhabcy  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:53:24pm

Liberals want to permit only their ideology to be taught in school. It does not matter that some theories are just that theories with debatable conclusions. As fish (777) says, global warming, is not at all settled. Trying to ram it down our throat will not make it more scientifically defensible.
In 1980 college professors were predicting oil would run out in 20 years... They could not have been more wrong.
In 2009, the press (and academia) is in favor of Obama's so-called economic stimulus package. A cursory review of Roosevelt's Keynesian actions (similar to Obama's) in the early 30s delayed the recovery and Reagan's supply side actions in the early 80s caused one the greatest economic expansions in our history.
Cheers!

819 Dragonwolf  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:53:24pm

re: #708 MandyManners

I don't know of a single church-based school in this area that is anti-science, either.

I went to a Lutheran Elementary school attached to a church. Chapel every Wednesday. Prayers everyday. And evolution, not creationism was taught in science class.

(This school was so church that my punishment one day for misbehaving was to write the Nicene Creed out by hand....three times.)

820 albusteve  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:55:49pm

re: #814 Sharmuta

-James Madison, Father of the Constitution

nice...but I like Goldwater even more...thanks for those quotes

821 funky chicken  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:57:33pm

re: #267 Shiplord Kirel

It is American conservatism that is being defined down. For many years now, the left and its media allies have been delighted to conflate "conservative" with the "religious right." In popular culture, "conservative" and "Bible-thumping hypocrite" are virtually synonymous now. Creationist charlatans have taken full advantage and far too many otherwise secular and rational conservatives have been willing to play along for electoral advantage.

This has gone on for 30 years now and the game is up.

It is appropriate, of course, for people who call themselves conservative to look to the past for guidance. Unfortunately, many can see no further back than 1980 and Ronald Reagan's pragmatic alliance with what was then a new phenomenon, the media based "religious right" of televangelists like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. They need to go back another 20 years to the real roots of the movement, Barry Goldwater and Conscience of a Conservative. In many ways, Goldwater's libertarian principles were antithetical to the values of the religious right. The alliance of religious and political conservatism is little more than a linguistic coincidence, a shotgun wedding of incompatible ideologies. A divorce is long overdue.

+1

822 avanti  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:57:43pm

re: #803 Soona'

You obviously know nothing about the beliefs of the founding fathers and what motivated them to write what they did in the constitution. I really don't think a further conversation with you is worth my time.


Here's one belief:

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

823 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:57:52pm

re: #820 albusteve

I'm not going to stand for revisionism on the part of our Founders. Goldwater would have made them proud.

824 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:58:01pm
825 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:59:31pm

re: #767 Soona'

I believe that every community (ie. parents) should have the freedom to choose what their children are taught as long as it upholds the principles and ideas of the US Constitution. (And, no, the Constitution says nothing about freedom from religion). CAIR is not a good idea solely because it encourages the overthrow of any government that isn't islam.
If a parent feels that the subject matter of their school is lacking or shouldn't be taught, then they have recourse locally or through legislation. If they still feel their schools are lacking, they can change schools, enroll their kids in private school, move, or any other of a number of things.

Oh, Puh-LEEEZE! People should have to pull up stakes and move to avoid having their kids indoctrinated in religious dogma in public schools?

And the 'freedom of doesn't mean freedom from' canard is just plain DUMB. Like the Constitution is really sayin' 'you can be any religion ya wanna be - Satanist, scientologist, or Zoroastrian - butcha haveta pick at least ONE!"

Sheesh!

826 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:59:40pm

re: #816 avanti

Marriage ammendment, anti prop 8, there's more if you dig. It's not always them, sometimes it's their sugar daddy donors with them peripherally supporting with articles etc.

827 fish  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:00:13pm

re: #788 Thanos

Because there aren't any "scientific controversies" in evolution that aren't already being taught. If you know of one, please explain without linking to ICR, DI, or AIG nonsense.

Do you know that for certain? Do you know exactly what is being taught currently? Because I don't. I do know that there are MANY documented cases of text books in schools being inaccurate or even deliberately misleading. (Climate Change/Global Warming and American History are the 2 biggest items) Jindal's law provides a remedy for that.

Is it possible that a Creationist Teacher, coupled with a creationist local school board coupled with a creationist State Board of education Could introduce Young Earth Creationism into the classroom without a SINGLE parent noticing and raising hell about church-state seperation? I suppose technically it is possible. It is a risk I am willing to take to give the chance of accurate items being taught in subjects that we know are lacking.

828 tradewind  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:00:37pm

re: #792 katemaclaren

I'm so sorry for your loss, and so touched by your story. Many of the men I worked with when I flew were affected by AIDS.... it ran through our airline like a literal plague in the eighties and early nineties. I took a three year leave after my second child was born, and when I returned and had to be re-qualified I was horrified to see that so many of the guys in charge of training those I had flown with for years were either very sick or gone. Many of them were the brightest, nicest people I knew, the most fun to shop,talk, and find that new restaurant with on layovers...some of them horribly conflicted in their sexuality, some not so much, but none of them deserved what happened. The interior designer who helped me when I moved into a new house was the youngest of four boys from a very strict, Baptist southern family, and I watched him get sick and pass away, never having confided in his parents, who were told he had cancer.
There is not much doubt in my mind that at least in men, homosexuality is almost always a genetic predisposition. This was not a choice for these guys.

829 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:01:44pm

re: #787 Sharmuta

When I was growing up, my father worked very hard to keep me away from fundamentalist influences. He removed me from several churches and other similar prayer groups and such the moment he got a whiff of it. I never understood at the time what was going on, but being a good girl, I accepted my father's decisions and moved on.

However- I do understand now, and I'm quite thankful to my father concerning my spiritual upbringing. It was his right to raise me this way, and it's my right to raise my kids my way. Had my father learned a creationist was speaking at my school about the Bible, I would have been kept home, and the ACLU would have gotten a call from my father. And rightly so. It is not the place of a public school to dictate to other people's kids what they should think spiritually/religiously- period.

When you mention the ACLU it is obvious you are much younger than I am. My parents as well as most other parents had an ongoing dialogue with all my teachers all the time. I was raised in a very religious community with two of the largest churches being extremely fundamentalist. But even they recognized that modern science had to be taught in order for their kids to be educated enough to function in a modern world. An Amish type group just east of my hometown taught both creationism and hard science in their little school and most of them, when they would transfer to our school, were either just as versed or more so in the hard sciences as any of us.
I don't think that there is going to be any school that is going to replace any of the hard sciences with ID.

830 bhabcy  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:03:22pm

re: #792 katemaclaren
As the parents of 4 wonderful girls, we (must) love them unconditionally. Our goal is for them to always want to come home, and hopefully not stay, as difficult as their behavior may be for us to understand. Your response to your son and his child and mom is Godly. Could natural selection, survival of the fittest, have caused us to evolve to have such feelings of magnanimity?
Cheers!

831 Dragonwolf  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:04:09pm

re: #769 Irenike

Homosexuality has been around long before all the nice reproductive technology. So, regardless of the environment, it survives

Will someone please correct me if I am wrong.

One of my frat brothers did a research paper on homosexuality. This was in the mid 80s. What research he found for the phenomenon in other species was that homosexuality tended to show up to a greater extent in a species when the population of that species had reached the balance point with the available resources in the area. Kind of an overreproduction safety valve.

Anyone else heard of this?

832 Soona'  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:04:43pm

re: #811 Sharmuta

-James Madison, Father of the Constitution

But Mr. Madison doesn't say that they should never be mixed.

833 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:06:20pm

re: #777 fish

I just re read the Law Jindal signed. I know I am in the vast minority here but I don't see anything offensive about it. By state and federal law a public school cannot teach religion. By the new law itself a teacher cannot bring in any materials that are not approved by the local school board, and the state school board has trump authority over it all. In addition to evolution the bill mentions controversies in Global Warming and the Origin of Life (2 subjects with a large amount of debatable non religious scientific data that would most likely be covered in a baised way in most current text books.)

That's because they are cynically misdefining what they wanna teach as not religious; it's called lying for Jesus. It is creationism-by-default, spending class time on discredited and spurious attacks on evolution, and wink-wink nudge-nudge hinting (after the Dover decision) at ID. The other subjects mentioned are just red herrings, to deflect attention and garner anti-AGW votes for a creationist pedagogical agenda.

834 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:06:48pm

re: #742 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Merely kudos for your put-down of Emphasis. If childbearing is such an all-fired negative as he says, then WTF is HE doing here? I don't think he/she gets it.

Oh, I got that part, but what I didn't realize was that this antique PC I have has busted speakers and I need to put the ear piece in to hear anything. So I couldn't understand what the red button was for.

I'm really still as smart as you used to think, just forgetful.

835 tradewind  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:08:08pm

re: #831 Dragonwolf

No... although it could have a stretchy connection to current scientific research which tends to show that stress hormones that flood a developing embryo can affect a male child's sexuality. Also, in a family of several boys, the younger tend to be more likely to be gay, giving rise to the theory that repeated testosterone exposure to a mom has some thing to do with it. Way over my pay grade, but there is a lot of seience to read.

836 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:08:18pm

re: #827 fish

Do you know that for certain? Do you know exactly what is being taught currently? Because I don't. I do know that there are MANY documented cases of text books in schools being inaccurate or even deliberately misleading. (Climate Change/Global Warming and American History are the 2 biggest items) Jindal's law provides a remedy for that.

Is it possible that a Creationist Teacher, coupled with a creationist local school board coupled with a creationist State Board of education Could introduce Young Earth Creationism into the classroom without a SINGLE parent noticing and raising hell about church-state seperation? I suppose technically it is possible. It is a risk I am willing to take to give the chance of accurate items being taught in subjects that we know are lacking.

Well I do keep up with science, so yes I do know what's being taught. I also am a total geek, and occasionally buy and read textbooks cover to cover. I don't have too many complaints in the sciences, quite a few with history books, quite a few with english courses. Why isn't DI putting their money into "reconstructing" our history books? That's much more important than their imagined controversies in evolution.

On your question about the school boards etc. Yes, it's completely possible . If you go to the top of the page to my article you will see a link in it to a survey demonstrating that 12.5 percent of public school teachers are teaching ID nonsense over evolution. You should also read Charles' past articles on this topic where he covers the cases where they have stacked school boards and teachers. In other words before you object, learn a bit more please.

837 Irenike  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:09:52pm

re: #813 dentate

But the original argument, from an evolutionary standpoint, is that the specific traits either get selected for or not. In the case of sickle cell, we can clearly see what the survival advantage is for having one, but not both genes. And then, when the environment changes, according to evolutionary theory, the original survival advantage may or may not need to be selected for anymore. When it is not needed, the trait dies out.

What is interesting to me about homosexuality is that there is a distinct survival disadvantage ---strictly from an evolutionary standpoint, let me stress --- since gay men are not going to have natural urges to impregnate as many females as possible. At the most, gay men will reproduce at a slower rate than ardently heterosexual men, assuming they are reproducing at all. Over time, over many thousands of years, you would think this would eventually go extinct, especially as social pressures to marry and have children abate among the gay community. Maybe the argument you'd want to make at this point, then, is that the small numbers of gay men compared to heterosexual men is due to the slower rate of reproduction in that population, as compared to the hetersexual population.

838 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:10:28pm

re: #831 Dragonwolf

Will someone please correct me if I am wrong.

One of my frat brothers did a research paper on homosexuality. This was in the mid 80s. What research he found for the phenomenon in other species was that homosexuality tended to show up to a greater extent in a species when the population of that species had reached the balance point with the available resources in the area. Kind of an overreproduction safety valve.

Anyone else heard of this?

I'm having a little trouble visualizing the research protocols of this study, not to mention the time it would have taken.

839 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:11:24pm

re: #831 Dragonwolf

Will someone please correct me if I am wrong.

One of my frat brothers did a research paper on homosexuality. This was in the mid 80s. What research he found for the phenomenon in other species was that homosexuality tended to show up to a greater extent in a species when the population of that species had reached the balance point with the available resources in the area. Kind of an overreproduction safety valve.

Anyone else heard of this?

Yes, there are papers on that, haven't read the latest ones, but back when I did there were apparent but not proven correlations between population pressure and increased homosexual behaviour. I believe Desmond Morris mentions it in one of his books as well.

840 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:11:34pm

re: #778 buzzsawmonkey

Maybe I missed something in the course of the thread, but I don't recall Soona' expressing any "religious righteousness" that was crying out to be salved, nor do I recall him/her saying anything about imposing a "theocracy."

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to point out where this occurred?

The moment he said to me, in #707, that 'Your fear of anything that's of God is telling.' This statement equated my opposition to the unconstitutional actions of school-organized sectarian school prayer and the cramming of religious dogmas into trusting young minds in public high school science class with an anti-theist agenda.

841 Dragonwolf  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:11:54pm

re: #803 Soona'

You obviously know nothing about the beliefs of the founding fathers and what motivated them to write what they did in the constitution. I really don't think a further conversation with you is worth my time.

If the Christian Right of this country sat down to discuss religion with the founding fathers, I'm 98% certain they'd be calling them heathens and bound for heck within the first 10 min. All that I have read or learned about them shows their beliefs as definitely NOT mainstream protestant views.

842 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:12:05pm
843 Irenike  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:12:37pm

re: #792 katemaclaren

Your story is so touching. I hope your grandson continues to be a comfort and a blessing in your life, and I hope the memory of your son will also be a blessing to you.

844 Maui Girl  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:12:52pm

re: #806 Salamantis

845 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:14:05pm

re: #781 Irenike

But every organism, if the population is big enough, has brothers and sisters who will bear successful offspring. That does not mean that unsuccessful "aunts" and "uncles" will still see their traits passed down to subsequent generations for very long. If that were the case, then certain traits would never die out, and hence there would be no evolutionary progress.

How is my line of inquiry flawed?

See my #806.

846 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:14:26pm

re: #832 Soona'

#814 really kind of craps on the revisionist notions you're promoting. The fact is- these men weren't interested in establishing a theocracy after our Revolution.

847 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:15:33pm

re: #842 buzzsawmonkey

You seem to be working up to a series of thunderous denunciations that the posts you are replying to in this thread do not justify.

I am asking you a second time--still politely--to point to where Soona', your designated despisee du jour, advocated anything approaching a theocracy.

See post# 840.

848 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:15:49pm

re: #837 Irenike

The genes are still there, regardless. Homosexuality has been here since the beginning of recorded history. For the same reasons that evolutionary biology disproves the use of eugenics as efficacious, you see why homosexuality won't "breed itself out" anymore than Albinism, hemophilia, or other traits ever will, even if you try to make it so they will still be there in the population.

849 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:15:50pm
850 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:17:07pm

re: #830 bhabcy

Could natural selection, survival of the fittest, have caused us to evolve to have such feelings of magnanimity?

Yes.

851 tradewind  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:17:33pm

re: #812 Eowyn2

The incidence of true female homosexuality is so rare in nature that you have to wonder if their wives weren't going through a delayed Wellesley Experience ( lesbian experimenting in college is almost a cult today). You see celebities who claimed to be gay (female) doing a 180 all the time and marrying a man, but you don't see men doing the same thing.
(Maybe these men were really hard to live with ...:))

852 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:18:47pm

re: #819 Dragonwolf

It's good to see your karma coming up.

(I stepped in to close the window, and am doing that now. Just wanted to post this before I did.)

853 Dragonwolf  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:19:00pm

re: #839 Thanos

Thank you

854 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:19:26pm

re: #827 fish

..............It is a risk I am willing to take to give the chance of accurate items being taught in subjects that we know are lacking.

You are saying that evolution is lacking and that this lack should be taught, with the implied understanding that the gaps can be filled by other ideas, proven or not.

The whole point here is that the proponents of bills like this are only interested in "teaching" remaining questions, which is an oxymoron, and they have shown that they are not above manufacturing such questions from falsehoods.

There is absolutely no need to have laws to "allow" the teaching of what is not known, because the very principle of science is to study what is not known. That follows automatically from teaching what is known and has worked just fine so far.

Either you are simply incapable of seeing the issue here, or you are simply marginally smarter than some long gone trolls.

855 Dragonwolf  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:19:38pm

re: #852 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thanks for the ups, and for giving me the chance.

856 tradewind  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:20:41pm

re: #850 Charles
You just know that the creationists would have a freakin' fit if they knew that they were being discussed in the same thread as one debating the origins of homosexuality....
:)

857 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:23:32pm

re: #853 Dragonwolf

Thank you

Here's the Desmond Morris Book I was thinking of. Keep in mind that he's a popularist and makes stretches at times, and that it's way outdated. Use the book as a pointer to better sources.

858 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:24:25pm

re: #827 fish

Do you know that for certain? Do you know exactly what is being taught currently? Because I don't. I do know that there are MANY documented cases of text books in schools being inaccurate or even deliberately misleading. (Climate Change/Global Warming and American History are the 2 biggest items) Jindal's law provides a remedy for that.

Is it possible that a Creationist Teacher, coupled with a creationist local school board coupled with a creationist State Board of education Could introduce Young Earth Creationism into the classroom without a SINGLE parent noticing and raising hell about church-state seperation? I suppose technically it is possible. It is a risk I am willing to take to give the chance of accurate items being taught in subjects that we know are lacking.

See- that's the issue with the "academic freedom" bills. The "freedom" would allow just one creationist teacher the ability to teach creationism without the school board, the State board or anyone else. It will make it easier for ID to get into the classrooms!

As for your questions concerning the amount of support the theory has- you should read some books on the matter. Only A Theory by Ken Miller is excellent, and I'm currently reading Why Evolution Is True by Jerry Coyne. Both good books that will help you understand the tremendous amount of empirical data that supports evolution- and not a stitch in favor of any other contradictory theory.

859 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:24:31pm

re: #803 Soona'

You obviously know nothing about the beliefs of the founding fathers and what motivated them to write what they did in the constitution. I really don't think a further conversation with you is worth my time.

No, it's probably not. You might learn that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin were Deists, who believed that a prime Mover created and set the Universe in motion, and hasn't touched it since, and that Thomas Paine was an unapologetic atheist.

And these historical facts could cause you to suffer massive cognitive dissonance - and your time would better be spent otherwise than in suffering from such stress.

860 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:26:26pm

Charles,

I guess I just don't find creationism to be among any of my list of concerns. I like Bobby Jindal. I watched him on Meet the Press on Sunday and he struck me as extremely intelligent, honest and someone I would want as a President. That he supported the teaching of intelligent design in Louisiana is not really important to me. If he tries to teach intelligent design at the federal level, THEN I'd have problems.

Seeing as how I doubt this would even be a campaign issue in 2012, I guess I don't see what the fuss is about. I'd love for Jindal to run and when 2012 comes around and Obama is merely the second coming of JC (that would be Jimmy Carter, not the other JC) then I think a lot of people will practically be begging for someone as intelligent, uncorruptable and knowledgeable (and having EXECUTIVE EXPERIENCE) as Jindal.

Keep railing against creationism - I have no problem with that and would encourage it. But if you're looking for your perfect candidate Charles, I would suggest you run yourself.

861 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:30:44pm

re: #827 fish

Do you know that for certain? Do you know exactly what is being taught currently? Because I don't. I do know that there are MANY documented cases of text books in schools being inaccurate or even deliberately misleading. (Climate Change/Global Warming and American History are the 2 biggest items) Jindal's law provides a remedy for that.

Argument from ignorance. Please furnish the documented cases of noncreationist textbooks being inaccurate or misleading concerning evolution.

Is it possible that a Creationist Teacher, coupled with a creationist local school board coupled with a creationist State Board of education Could introduce Young Earth Creationism into the classroom without a SINGLE parent noticing and raising hell about church-state seperation? I suppose technically it is possible. It is a risk I am willing to take to give the chance of accurate items being taught in subjects that we know are lacking.

It could also be the case that the parents in many rural Louisiana areas are also creationist, and don't mind their schools sounding like their churches.

862 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:31:33pm

re: #860 Phil.

Would you consider someone teaching astrology an issue in your children's science class? How about crystal gazing, or scientology? You open the door for ID you open it for those too, as well as Harun Yahya's Islamic creationism.

You might not consider it an issue for you personally, but you are just one vote. Nationally this will be a huge issue along with Jindal's excorcism. They aren't mentioned now because the left is setting us up. They would love for us to nominate Jindal.

863 Teh Flowah  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:33:40pm

re: #377 Eowyn2

Polling can be skewed any way you want it to be skewed just by the type of question asked. the pro-choice crowd has, for years, polled people with questions like "do you think a woman has the right to control her own body." Naturally the unaware will answer "yes" so all of a sudden a 'poll' shows up with 80% of people think a woman has a right to an abortion.

"Do you believe in a Supreme Being" can be 'polled' as the belief of wanting Creationism taught in the classroom.


Yeah but that's not how the question is phrased. If you ask "Do you believe in a Supreme Being" the answer from Americans would be overwhelmingly yes, over 90% last I saw. Creationism is much less so, but nonetheless a seemingly majority issue, although the biggest slice of that pie is made up, sadly, of Republicans.

[Link: www.gallup.com...]
[Link: www.usnews.com...]

As you can see, these polls' questions are much more focused than "Do you believe in a Supreme Being?" They ask specifically about evolution and creationism, and the results are NOT pretty. It pretty much says most of our countrymen are ignorant of the long existing scientific consensus as well as the mountain of evidence in support of evolution and the 0 pieces of evidence for creationism.

864 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:35:09pm

re: #829 Soona'

When you mention the ACLU it is obvious you are much younger than I am. My parents as well as most other parents had an ongoing dialogue with all my teachers all the time. I was raised in a very religious community with two of the largest churches being extremely fundamentalist. But even they recognized that modern science had to be taught in order for their kids to be educated enough to function in a modern world. An Amish type group just east of my hometown taught both creationism and hard science in their little school and most of them, when they would transfer to our school, were either just as versed or more so in the hard sciences as any of us.
I don't think that there is going to be any school that is going to replace any of the hard sciences with ID.

ID is religious dogma, and does not belong in public high school science class, PERIOD. And the current creationist push has put pressure on fundamentalist religious schools to be, if anything, MORE creationist and LESS likely to teach evolution than before, as many of their students are being enrolled at their preachers' advice, in order to avoid being taught evolution in public schools.

865 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:38:25pm

re: #831 Dragonwolf

Will someone please correct me if I am wrong.

One of my frat brothers did a research paper on homosexuality. This was in the mid 80s. What research he found for the phenomenon in other species was that homosexuality tended to show up to a greater extent in a species when the population of that species had reached the balance point with the available resources in the area. Kind of an overreproduction safety valve.

Anyone else heard of this?

Well, a scarcity of resorces could very well induce the kind of differential-hormone fetal-bathing stress to which I earlier referred.

866 katemaclaren  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:38:41pm

Tradewind
I completely agree on the genetic predisposition for homosexuality for men. I find it odd for women because of the XX chromosomes, as opposed to those for males.

I wish I could talk longer tonight, but guess who's coming to supper? ;-)

867 apachegunner  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:40:15pm

ya ever try to read a thread (SIC?) backwards? It's a bitch!

868 katemaclaren  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:41:20pm

re: #865 Salamantis

Well, a scarcity of resorces could very well induce the kind of differential-hormone fetal-bathing stress to which I earlier referred.

Well said--and I think it's probably close to true. Animal studies also show that serious overcrowding of a population leads to homosexual behavior--but then it also shows anecdotal evidence of cannibalism, too. Or would that be annibalism?

869 krisstingle  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:41:34pm

re: #707 Soona'

I survived prayer in school. I survived preachers sometimes coming in and teaching ancient biblical history. It was mostly, if I remember correctly, very boring but every once in a while a correlation to what was happening in the present world could be interestingly made. Your fear of anything that's of God is telling.

Prayer in school is not the issue. I am a Catholic, in unity with my church. Would Creationist like their children coming home from school, being taught about the Trinity and the Eucharists( the true body and blood of Christ). One goes in they all go in.

870 Teh Flowah  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:42:43pm

re: #863 Teh Flowah

I amend my previous assertion that the creationism issue doesn't noticeably hurt Republicans to say that it doesn't hurt in an easily quantifiable way. Undoubtedly, because the majority of Democrats and even more independents reject creationism in lieu of evolution, it doesn't really help draw in that pool of available voters.

However, it's hard to quantify how much the issue of creationism and intelligent design propels idiot voters to the voting booth on election day. Unfortunately, a great deal of Republicans ARE single issue voters. Think, abortion, gay marriage, creationism. I suppose if you believe abortion to be murder, it's hard to vote for someone who condones what you see to be murder. I'm sure that the other single issues are similarly rationalized.

However, because of this, the Religious Right does show up to vote based on these rather silly issues, and they do vote Republican. So in the end, the win:loss numbers are hard to figure out.

Which is why I said previously that as a party, the Republicans should reject this ends justifies the means numbers approach to voters, and reject creationism as an accepted plank of their party platform simply because it's backwards.

871 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:43:08pm

re: #862 Thanos

Would you consider someone teaching astrology an issue in your children's science class? How about crystal gazing, or scientology? You open the door for ID you open it for those too, as well as Harun Yahya's Islamic creationism.

You might not consider it an issue for you personally, but you are just one vote. Nationally this will be a huge issue along with Jindal's excorcism. They aren't mentioned now because the left is setting us up. They would love for us to nominate Jindal.

I'm not really worried about it to be honest. First off, we're a LOOOONG way from 2012 and Jindal will have a chance to really establish himself if he helps turn Louisiana around - it is still, after all, a very corrupt state.

Have you seen Jindal's performance on Meet the Press yesterday? If not, I would recommend you go find the video where Jindal comes across as the opposite of Sarah Palin. Palin looked stage managed, not very curious about the world, and not particularly bright. Jindal was heading federal health departments trying to reform of the US medical system at age 26.

I'm not sure if you're a conservative, "anti-Idiotarian" or whatever, but I am definitely a conservative first and I believe very strongly in federalism. What Jindal does in Louisiana is between him and the people of Louisiana. If he's running for President, I want to know what he's going to do at the federal level. If he wants creationism taught via the Department of Education, we're going to have problems. But since I doubt that that's even going to come up, I don't really consider intelligent design to be a major cause of concern for me.

At all.

Did you vote for McCain in 2008? Did you know he came out in support of teaching intelligent design? Bet you still voted for him, didn't you? So why all the fuss all of a sudden?

If you want the perfect candidate for yourself, again, I would suggest you run for office.

872 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:46:21pm

re: #837 Irenike

But the original argument, from an evolutionary standpoint, is that the specific traits either get selected for or not. In the case of sickle cell, we can clearly see what the survival advantage is for having one, but not both genes. And then, when the environment changes, according to evolutionary theory, the original survival advantage may or may not need to be selected for anymore. When it is not needed, the trait dies out.

What is interesting to me about homosexuality is that there is a distinct survival disadvantage ---strictly from an evolutionary standpoint, let me stress --- since gay men are not going to have natural urges to impregnate as many females as possible. At the most, gay men will reproduce at a slower rate than ardently heterosexual men, assuming they are reproducing at all. Over time, over many thousands of years, you would think this would eventually go extinct, especially as social pressures to marry and have children abate among the gay community. Maybe the argument you'd want to make at this point, then, is that the small numbers of gay men compared to heterosexual men is due to the slower rate of reproduction in that population, as compared to the hetersexual population.

You miss the point entirely. If stress-produced differential hormonal bathing of the fetus during a critical period during gestation is indeed a cause of homosexuality, as the German studies indicate, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE could have this propensity coded in its genes as an evolutionary adaptation to compensate for episodic environmental resource scarcity or danger, and it still would only become actuated in pregnant women under stress - a definite subset, not complete set, of pregnant women. This is why heterosexual parents can have homosexual children, and vice versa. The mode of transmission is only indirectly genetic; directly, it depends in changes in the fetal hormonal environment during a critical period in brain development.

873 fish  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:48:12pm

OK One last time:

1) YES I understand that Evolution is a real and proven fact.
2) YES I understand that the DI is pushing an agenda.
3) NO I do not want any hint of religion taught in science class.
4) YES If a teacher can supply documented evidence that a theory (ANY THEORY) is incorrect (or possibly incorrect)I want them to be able to share that evidence.
5) I still like the Jindal law. The Controversial topics listed in the law that are not evolution may have been put in as "red herrings" but that are just as much a part of the law now as evolution. And an alternative viewpoint from most text books is needed on many issues.
6) Lastly can anyone provide evidence that the Jindal Law has actually allowed Creationism and man walked the earth with dinosaurs to be taught in a public classroom and not stopped by a parents group, lawyer or court as soon as it was discovered?

874 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:48:57pm

re: #870 Teh Flowah

The loss numbers are very easy to figure out. 1.3 fewer conservatives voted in this election than Bush's last election. That 1.3 percent would not have one the election. 20 percent of voters who were conservative crossed over to vote for Obama. Some of it was those social issues DI and the hard religious right are pushing. The anti-gay stuff, the anti-science stuff, the anti-choice stuff of all their social agenda adds up and costs us votes.

875 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:50:11pm

/pimf "won"

876 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:50:31pm

re: #849 buzzsawmonkey

You are making a huge leap--and going way overboard in doing so. Which is indeed telling, because apparently you cannot point to any post that Soona' actually made which advocates "theocracy," "school-organized sectarian school prayer," or "the cramming of religious dogmas" into young minds, trusting or not, in or out of a science class.

Can you?

I also point to #767:

(And, no, the Constitution says nothing about freedom from religion).

and #832:

But Mr. Madison doesn't say that they should never be mixed.

to demonstrate that soona is advocating a melding of church and state - and that's a fucking theocracy, you snide, snooty, supercilious nimrod.

877 katemaclaren  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:50:46pm

re: #804 buzzsawmonkey

Thank you. Both my grandson and "daughter" bring much happiness to our entire family.

878 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:51:07pm

re: #871 Phil.

If he wants creationism taught via the Department of Education, we're going to have problems. But since I doubt that that's even going to come up, I don't really consider intelligent design to be a major cause of concern for me.

You don't understand- these "academic freedom" bills are designed so that creationists teachers can undermine the DoEs, the elected school boards, and school administrators by introducing creationism directly into their classes- all with legal protections to do so. So instead of having an idea this is going on in your schools because it's bigger at a state or district level, you have to know what is going on in every single biology class in the state to know if the Constitution is being violated.

And Jindal signed a bill like this into law- I don't know how much more obvious it can be that he therefore supports allowing creationism in the schools!

879 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:52:03pm

Btw, buzz; you gonna pimp for Kach and Kahane any more?

880 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:52:10pm

Don't make the perfect the enemy of very good.

Try imagining a debate between Jindal and Obama. Jindal would embarrass the guy. Jindal comes across as ridiculously sharp on television - he'll throw numbers and figures at you so fast that he sounds like he's six steps ahead of you when it comes to limited but effective government. His explanation for why he was taking some of the federal "stimulus" money but not necessarily the unemployment benefits portion of the stim package shows someone who is actually thinking about how federal government actions are going to affect his state in both the short and the long term.

Again, watch the video. If you find him to be a dumb redneck here, then we are watching a different video.

881 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:54:37pm

re: #880 Phil.

Jindal burnt his chance on the national stage when he signed that bill. He has zero chance of getting anywhere, no matter how much DI tries to shove their man down our throat.

That debate just won't ever happen, imagine it as much as you want to.

882 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:55:18pm

re: #880 Phil.

Maybe not dumb, but definitely unprincipled. That seems to be unimportant to you.

883 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:56:58pm

re: #860 Phil.

Charles,

I guess I just don't find creationism to be among any of my list of concerns. I like Bobby Jindal. I watched him on Meet the Press on Sunday and he struck me as extremely intelligent, honest and someone I would want as a President. That he supported the teaching of intelligent design in Louisiana is not really important to me. If he tries to teach intelligent design at the federal level, THEN I'd have problems.

Seeing as how I doubt this would even be a campaign issue in 2012, I guess I don't see what the fuss is about. I'd love for Jindal to run and when 2012 comes around and Obama is merely the second coming of JC (that would be Jimmy Carter, not the other JC) then I think a lot of people will practically be begging for someone as intelligent, uncorruptable and knowledgeable (and having EXECUTIVE EXPERIENCE) as Jindal.

Keep railing against creationism - I have no problem with that and would encourage it. But if you're looking for your perfect candidate Charles, I would suggest you run yourself.

If Jindal were to be elected President, and THEN pushed at the federal level for the selfsame Disco Institute crafted stealth creationism legislation he signed at the state level, it would be a case of shutting the barn door after you voted the horse into the White House, would it not? I prefer to learn from history rather than have a state disaster repeated on a federal level.

884 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:57:24pm

re: #873 fish

5) I still like the Jindal law. The Controversial topics listed in the law that are not evolution may have been put in as "red herrings" but that are just as much a part of the law now as evolution. And an alternative viewpoint from most text books is needed on many issues.

So you like that individual teachers can undermine the elected and appointed officials in charge of standards and curriculum? All with protections against the consequences of doing so? I think of these bills not as "academic freedom" but rather academic anarchy.

What is to stop other teachers from doing the same in their subjects? What happens when an anti-Semite decides they're going to teach Holocaust revisionism? All with the state's blessing!

885 apachegunner  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:58:42pm

re: #884 Sharmuta what you said

886 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:00:13pm

re: #884 Sharmuta

So you like that individual teachers can undermine the elected and appointed officials in charge of standards and curriculum? All with protections against the consequences of doing so? I think of these bills not as "academic freedom" but rather academic anarchy.

What is to stop other teachers from doing the same in their subjects? What happens when an anti-Semite decides they're going to teach Holocaust revisionism? All with the state's blessing!

You make an excellent point there. It was "academic freedom" bills that ushered the marxists into control of our teaching colleges. Do we want that same thing to happen to science courses at a high school level ? I don't think so.

887 Dragonwolf  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:01:35pm

re: #857 Thanos

Thank you. I'll check the local library first. Hopefully I can find it for free.

888 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:03:18pm

re: #868 katemaclaren

Well said--and I think it's probably close to true. Animal studies also show that serious overcrowding of a population leads to homosexual behavior--but then it also shows anecdotal evidence of cannibalism, too. Or would that be annibalism?

They've also shown that overcrwoding in rabbit warrens causes female rabits to reabsorb their fetuses.

889 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:03:36pm

re: #887 Dragonwolf

Thank you. I'll check the local library first. Hopefully I can find it for free.

Welcome, you might search PLOS first, they will definitely have more recent material since that book was written in 1969.

890 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:04:22pm

re: #886 Thanos

It's like some weird distortion field or mental warp we're going through when suddenly it's "conservatives" arguing in favor of undermining standards. I thought we wanted to improve them through raising them, not their destruction.

891 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:05:43pm

re: #721 Sharmuta

Then explain so-called "conservatives" spending money like drunken sailors and the democrats stealing fiscal restraint from us during the election?

Dear G-d I wish I had a billion updings for that Sharm1

892 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:05:57pm

re: #870 Teh Flowah

I amend my previous assertion that the creationism issue doesn't noticeably hurt Republicans to say that it doesn't hurt in an easily quantifiable way. Undoubtedly, because the majority of Democrats and even more independents reject creationism in lieu of evolution, it doesn't really help draw in that pool of available voters.

However, it's hard to quantify how much the issue of creationism and intelligent design propels idiot voters to the voting booth on election day. Unfortunately, a great deal of Republicans ARE single issue voters. Think, abortion, gay marriage, creationism. I suppose if you believe abortion to be murder, it's hard to vote for someone who condones what you see to be murder. I'm sure that the other single issues are similarly rationalized.

However, because of this, the Religious Right does show up to vote based on these rather silly issues, and they do vote Republican. So in the end, the win:loss numbers are hard to figure out.

Which is why I said previously that as a party, the Republicans should reject this ends justifies the means numbers approach to voters, and reject creationism as an accepted plank of their party platform simply because it's backwards.

Yep. The last thing that conservative voters should be conserving is scientific ignorance.

893 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:10:44pm

Thanos, Naso Thang, Salamantis,

Did you vote for John McCain? Yes/No?

McCain Backs Intelligent Design

In an interview with Arizona Daily Star editors, Sen. John McCain endorsed teaching "intelligent design" in the nation's schools because "he believes 'all points of view' should be available to students studying the origins of mankind."

I'm not sure if now is the time for the non-crazy segment of the population (ie the non-Obama worshippers) to be demanding litmus tests for candidates for office. We're either a big tent party or we're not. If you want to be merely the low tax, Rockerfeller Republican party that sneers your nose at religious people, I hear the 1950s called and they want you back.

If you want your perfect candidate, I, once again, suggest you run for office. You can make the perfect the enemy of the very good if you want. We're currently dealing with a community agitator organizer who has no ethics whatsoever and seems keen on redistributing all the wealth until there's no wealth left to give. At a certain point, politics is practical, rather than perfect. Obama got a shitty bill railroaded through COngress that he didn't even read. Face it, that's America today.

Your grandkids will be paying that bill off. If you want to make the perfect the enemy of the very good, then don't be surprised when you find the country poorer and full of liberal Democrats for decades to come.

894 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:11:44pm

re: #871 Phil.

I'm not really worried about it to be honest. First off, we're a LOOOONG way from 2012 and Jindal will have a chance to really establish himself if he helps turn Louisiana around - it is still, after all, a very corrupt state.

Pandering to the RR socons and corrupting state public high school science education is not a way to combat that.

Have you seen Jindal's performance on Meet the Press yesterday? If not, I would recommend you go find the video where Jindal comes across as the opposite of Sarah Palin. Palin looked stage managed, not very curious about the world, and not particularly bright. Jindal was heading federal health departments trying to reform of the US medical system at age 26.

Obama is smooth, too. And look at what he does.

I'm not sure if you're a conservative, "anti-Idiotarian" or whatever, but I am definitely a conservative first and I believe very strongly in federalism. What Jindal does in Louisiana is between him and the people of Louisiana. If he's running for President, I want to know what he's going to do at the federal level. If he wants creationism taught via the Department of Education, we're going to have problems. But since I doubt that that's even going to come up, I don't really consider intelligent design to be a major cause of concern for me.

At all.

It's kinda late to shut the barn door once the crationit horse has galloped across the nation's public high school science class curriculum.

Did you vote for McCain in 2008? Did you know he came out in support of teaching intelligent design? Bet you still voted for him, didn't you? So why all the fuss all of a sudden?

If you want the perfect candidate for yourself, again, I would suggest you run for office.

Actually, this is untrue. When all the candidates were asked in a presidential debate which of them accepted evolution, McCain raised his hand.

895 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:12:03pm
896 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:14:24pm

re: #890 Sharmuta

It's like some weird distortion field or mental warp we're going through when suddenly it's "conservatives" arguing in favor of undermining standards. I thought we wanted to improve them through raising them, not their destruction.

I'm not in favor of undermining standards. I'd love nothing better than for the Department of Education to be eliminated seeing as how the DoE has been the primary reason for the increasingly lower standards we've been setting for our children. I also want science taught in our schools, not "liberal science" or "conservative science".

I've also been looking for the perfect candidate my whole life but I've yet to find them. Have you found yours?

897 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:14:55pm

re: #890 Sharmuta

It's like some weird distortion field or mental warp we're going through when suddenly it's "conservatives" arguing in favor of undermining standards. I thought we wanted to improve them through raising them, not their destruction.

The social conservatives are turning the Republican party from a "Pro" party to an "anti" party. That's the wrong direction when you're runing against hopenchange.

898 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:15:05pm

re: #893 Phil.

Thanos, Naso Thang, Salamantis,

Did you vote for John McCain? Yes/No?

McCain Backs Intelligent Design


I'm not sure if now is the time for the non-crazy segment of the population (ie the non-Obama worshippers) to be demanding litmus tests for candidates for office. We're either a big tent party or we're not. If you want to be merely the low tax, Rockerfeller Republican party that sneers your nose at religious people, I hear the 1950s called and they want you back.

If you want your perfect candidate, I, once again, suggest you run for office. You can make the perfect the enemy of the very good if you want. We're currently dealing with a community agitator organizer who has no ethics whatsoever and seems keen on redistributing all the wealth until there's no wealth left to give. At a certain point, politics is practical, rather than perfect. Obama got a shitty bill railroaded through COngress that he didn't even read. Face it, that's America today.

Your grandkids will be paying that bill off. If you want to make the perfect the enemy of the very good, then don't be surprised when you find the country poorer and full of liberal Democrats for decades to come.

If this is true, and if McCain would have been elected president and subsequently acted upon such sympathies, I would have direly regretted voting for him.

But Reagan also expressed such sympathies - and never acted upon them; Jindal already has. And that's a dealbreaker for me.

899 BigAl  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:16:59pm

re: #871 Phil.

I'm not really worried about it to be honest. First off, we're a LOOOONG way from 2012 and Jindal will have a chance to really establish himself if he helps turn Louisiana around - it is still, after all, a very corrupt state.

Have you seen Jindal's performance on Meet the Press yesterday? If not, I would recommend you go find the video where Jindal comes across as the opposite of Sarah Palin. Palin looked stage managed, not very curious about the world, and not particularly bright. Jindal was heading federal health departments trying to reform of the US medical system at age 26.

I'm not sure if you're a conservative, "anti-Idiotarian" or whatever, but I am definitely a conservative first and I believe very strongly in federalism. What Jindal does in Louisiana is between him and the people of Louisiana. If he's running for President, I want to know what he's going to do at the federal level. If he wants creationism taught via the Department of Education, we're going to have problems. But since I doubt that that's even going to come up, I don't really consider intelligent design to be a major cause of concern for me.

At all.

Did you vote for McCain in 2008? Did you know he came out in support of teaching intelligent design? Bet you still voted for him, didn't you? So why all the fuss all of a sudden?

If you want the perfect candidate for yourself, again, I would suggest you run for office.

Hey, Phil, I'm on your side. The debate over Darwinism only occurs because of the vast strides in human science, e.g. stem cells, microbiolgy, DNA, etc.... Darwin's 200 year-old theory should be questioned. ID can also be questioned, but better done by scientists as well rather than 'nervous-nellies'. If atheism and non-atheism become litmus tests for our leaders we are in deeper doodoo than we already are.

As an aside, I didn't here all the interviews. Did anyone ask 'Sully' Sullenberger if he was a creationist or an evolutionist?

900 clgood  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:20:22pm
Nice to see another conservative blogger who isn’t going to remain silent while pseudo-science wrecks the reputation of the GOP. Let’s see; we have me, Randy, and Allahpundit. Anyone else? Let me know and I’ll link your blog in this post.

Well, there's my humble blog. I posed this before I read your post on LGF. Search for "creationism" and/or "Darwin" and I think you'll see we're on the same page here.

901 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:20:46pm

re: #893 Phil.

Yes I did vote for McCain, but I was not terribly happy about that choice for a number of reasons, one being the quote you post.

At the time I felt I had no choice but to put that aside in view of the "larger picture" as you and many keep bringing up, but I also had the hope that he was smart enough to keep his mouth shut on the issue going forward.

The difference now is that we see a veritable tsunami of Republican sponsored bills to make this the law of the land, when it should be clear to these morons that science is all about investigating the unknown and always has been.

There can only be one reason to discard that principle after having been served so well by it, and make laws that allow other unproven suppositions be "taught" as if they are knowledge.

You and those like you are either deliberately trying to dumb down education in favor of a "greater good", or you are too dumb to realize what you are doing.

902 Irenike  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:21:35pm

re: #848 Thanos

The genes are still there, regardless. Homosexuality has been here since the beginning of recorded history. For the same reasons that evolutionary biology disproves the use of eugenics as efficacious, you see why homosexuality won't "breed itself out" anymore than Albinism, hemophilia, or other traits ever will, even if you try to make it so they will still be there in the population.

Let's set eugenics aside, since we can all agree that it is immoral.

If what you say is true, why do some traits die out, but others do not, even when the environment changes?

903 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:21:39pm

re: #895 buzzsawmonkey

You are, once again, reading a lot of things into those posts that simply are not there.

The other day I observed here that any intelligent political movement seeking to exclude intelligent design from public education must of necessity build and maintain an alliance with religious people--not alienate them. Whether or not they agree with the concept of intelligent design is immaterial; they must be reassured that the elimination of religiously-based instruction from science classes is

a) Not an assault on religion itself (which, of course, it is not), and

b) Something which, in fact, safeguards their own religious freedom.

Any other course of action not only works to unnecessarily Balkanize the country, the electorate, and any conceivable conservative voting bloc, but also slops dangerously over into establishing the notion that anyone who chooses to believe in divine creation in whatever aspect is committing some sort of thoughtcrime.

It is one thing to counter, and to ridicule, any of the outspoken advocates of creationism who have appeared in the threads discussing this. It is quite another to turn overwhelming ridicule upon someone who did not, in any of the posts to which you have cited, advocate teaching creationism in a public school. Doing so merely alienates the very religious people whom it is necessary to woo and convince.

I have admired your workovers of the creationism advocates in the past, and expect to do so again. But your half-cocked attack in this instance upon someone who was not in that category, and the overwrought accusations which you trumped up to justify it, were way out of line.

I do not accept your characterization of soona's intent with good reason, garnered from his own words in this thread. He clearly stated that he had no problem with school-sponsored prayer, that he did not believe that we were constitutionally entitled to freedom from religion, and that he also did not believe that the Founders and framers were opposed to mixing church and state. He also indicated that he considered thise who differed with his opinion to be speaking from a fear of God.

If we feed the creationism-and-prayer-in-public-schools crocodile, it will only get bigger -and stronger - and hungrier.

904 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:22:10pm

re: #893 Phil.

He also later backed off that stance, and the left was all over it still like flies on fecal matter:

[Link: www.google.com...]

I'll remind you that he also lost with 20 percent conservative cross over vote for Obama, and he did not sign a DI bill into law. McCain didn't have an excorcism in his past either.

I would never vote for Jindal, and if he throws his hat in I will be campaigning against him.

905 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:23:01pm

re: #894 Salamantis

Actually, this is untrue. When all the candidates were asked in a presidential debate which of them accepted evolution, McCain raised his hand.

That doesn't contradict the article. You can personally believe in evolution but still support the teaching of intelligent design. Guess what? YOU voted for that guy.

So what you're saying right now sounds like moral posturing.

I'm finding some of the posters increasingly hostile to religious people, not necessarily to intelligent design per se. I'm not personally religious but I am also not personally afraid of religious Jews, Christians, Hindus, Muslims etc.

I'm more concerned with fundamentalist Muslims who want to cut my head off than I am if Mr and Mrs Smith think their kids should hear about intelligent design in their school down in Peoria. I'm presently most concerned with a government that is increasingly declaring class warfare on people who have made responsible decisions in their lives and saved money to buy a house, rather than pander to deadbeats who bought houses with 0% interest loans and are now foreclosing

But if intelligent design is really the issue that stirs you up, then have at it.

906 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:23:27pm

re: #899 BigAl

Atheism already is a litmus test, do you honestly think an Atheist could be selected as the Republican nominee? Please get real.

907 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:24:32pm

re: #899 BigAl

If atheism and non-atheism become litmus tests for our leaders we are in deeper doodoo than we already are.

I hate to tell you this, but that is a litmus test and has been for a long time, certainly since Bush senior offered the opinion that atheists could not be considered patriots.

908 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:25:39pm

re: #896 Phil.

I'm not in favor of undermining standards. I'd love nothing better than for the Department of Education to be eliminated seeing as how the DoE has been the primary reason for the increasingly lower standards we've been setting for our children. I also want science taught in our schools, not "liberal science" or "conservative science".

I've also been looking for the perfect candidate my whole life but I've yet to find them. Have you found yours?

We should not make the perfect the enemy of the good, but we should also not cavilierly morph the unacceptable into the good enough.

Jindal's creation-bill-signing actions as Louisiana governor have ruled him unacceptable to me as a presidential candidate. I will never vote for him.

909 Irenike  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:29:31pm

re: #872 Salamantis

Okay, so you are arguing for two conditions to be present in order for homosexuality to occur: a genetic pre-disposition, plus some kind of stress in utero that allows that genetic pre-disposition to express itself. This would seem to be an empirical question that could be answered. One way might be to see if more homosexuals are born to women during times of war, since war is an obvious stressor. (I recall something about WWII, where starving pregnant women in Holland gave birth to babies who had a higher-than-average predisposition to gain weight. Clearly, the in-utero environment caused something to change in the fetuses so that they could store calories more effectively.)

Now, let me ask you this. What is the evolutionary explanation for musical ability? From what I can tell, in nature, there is absolutely no survival advantage for a human to be a good musician.

910 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:30:54pm

re: #899 BigAl

Hey, Phil, I'm on your side. The debate over Darwinism only occurs because of the vast strides in human science, e.g. stem cells, microbiolgy, DNA, etc.... Darwin's 200 year-old theory should be questioned.

Stupid. It is always questioned, but by people who know what is known and what is not.

What you are saying is that the education system of this country has not kept pace with the "vast strides" in science and therefore the poorly educated are finding they are a generation in knowledge behind.

It is trivially easy to question from a position of ignorance, or deceit in some cases.

911 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:31:44pm

re: #896 Phil.

I've also been looking for the perfect candidate my whole life but I've yet to find them. Have you found yours?

I'm not looking for perfect- I'm looking for a Goldwater conservative. I don't think it's too much to ask.

912 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:32:13pm

re: #905 Phil.

That doesn't contradict the article. You can personally believe in evolution but still support the teaching of intelligent design. Guess what? YOU voted for that guy.

See my #898.

So what you're saying right now sounds like moral posturing.

That's funny; to me it feels like standing on the principle that people who sign bills into law allowing for the polluting of empirical science with religious dogma in public high school science class have disqualified themselves to lead our nation.

I'm finding some of the posters increasingly hostile to religious people, not necessarily to intelligent design per se. I'm not personally religious but I am also not personally afraid of religious Jews, Christians, Hindus, Muslims etc.

My argument with Jindal isn't concerning his thoughts, but his actions as Louisiana governor. I voted for McCain-Palin, after all, despite the fact that she personally is a creationist.

I'm more concerned with fundamentalist Muslims who want to cut my head off than I am if Mr and Mrs Smith think their kids should hear about intelligent design in their school down in Peoria. I'm presently most concerned with a government that is increasingly declaring class warfare on people who have made responsible decisions in their lives and saved money to buy a house, rather than pander to deadbeats who bought houses with 0% interest loans and are now foreclosing.

But if intelligent design is really the issue that stirs you up, then have at it.

The fact that some things are bad for our country does not mean that other thing aren't. We should demand that our candidates walk and chew gum at the same time.

And McCain had solid antijihadi GWOT credentials; Jindal does not.

913 Jim D  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:32:24pm

re: #909 Irenike

chicks dig musicians.

914 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:33:16pm

re: #909 Irenike

From what I can tell, in nature, there is absolutely no survival advantage for a human to be a good musician.

I think you are wrong there. The first whistles, drums, chants, and calls typically preceded tribal warfare. Music was used for other things before it became just an appreciation.

Youtube Video
915 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:34:17pm

re: #909 Irenike

Okay, so you are arguing for two conditions to be present in order for homosexuality to occur: a genetic pre-disposition, plus some kind of stress in utero that allows that genetic pre-disposition to express itself. This would seem to be an empirical question that could be answered. One way might be to see if more homosexuals are born to women during times of war, since war is an obvious stressor. (I recall something about WWII, where starving pregnant women in Holland gave birth to babies who had a higher-than-average predisposition to gain weight. Clearly, the in-utero environment caused something to change in the fetuses so that they could store calories more effectively.)

Now, let me ask you this. What is the evolutionary explanation for musical ability? From what I can tell, in nature, there is absolutely no survival advantage for a human to be a good musician.

Sure there is; women are attracted to men with musical talents. Throughout history, women have fallen all over talented musicians; it seems to be an excellent talent to have if you wanna propagate your genes.

916 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:34:30pm

re: #899 BigAl

There's so many DI red herrings in this one little comment, it's not even funny.

917 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:34:33pm

re: #897 Thanos

The social conservatives are turning the Republican party from a "Pro" party to an "anti" party. That's the wrong direction when you're runing against hopenchange.

President hopenchange has seen his approval ratings fall over 10 points in less than a month, even in the Gallup polls now. I have a PhD in Economics. The policies Mr Hopenchange is pursuing are putting us on a dangerous course. If his new mortgage bailout bill passes, the housing crisis and thus the recession will be prolonged even longer. He's still in the honeymoon phase and his approval ratings are quickly tanking. If he doesn't change course, he's going to be another Jimmy Carter.

I give the Dems credit for winning the media narrative (not hard when they're in the tank for you) in 2008. That doesn't mean there's much truth to it. I suggest you take a look at the hearings in the Finance Committee back in 2004 when Republicans were demanding oversight and *ahem* regulations of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Who were the deregulators again?

Here

When did this crisis start? Late 2007. What happened shortly before in late 2006? Did a certain political party gain control of COngress for the first time in over a decade? What started the recession? Ridiculously inflated housing bubbles.

It's too bad that media narratives (and not facts) are what matters in America these days but as the recession continues (and is prolonged) by this current Administration, it will be hard to blame the opposition party for it when that party has no power to speak of.

But again, if intelligent design is really your signature issue, then have it. I'll be happily voting for Jindal should he run, thank you very much.

And I HATED Mike Huckabee.

918 clgood  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:36:19pm

re: #909 Irenike

I used to be bothered about the music. One thing to realize is that evolution doesn't require that every trait be an adaptation advantage. For example, eye and hair color have no apparent advantages, yet they clearly exist. Another to mull is that there may indeed be an evolutionary advantage if, for example, a certain skill makes it easier to find a mate. In any case, having the ability to make music in no way falsifies evolution.

919 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:36:26pm

re: #909 Irenike

From what I can tell, in nature, there is absolutely no survival advantage for a human to be a good musician.

Do you never listen to birds singing their hearts out?

920 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:37:51pm

re: #917 Phil.

But again, if intelligent design is really your signature issue, then have it. I'll be happily voting for Jindal should he run, thank you very much.

So it doesn't matter to you that he supports teaching creationism in public schools?

921 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:39:56pm

re: #899 BigAl

Hey, Phil, I'm on your side. The debate over Darwinism only occurs because of the vast strides in human science, e.g. stem cells, microbiolgy, DNA, etc.... Darwin's 200 year-old theory should be questioned. ID can also be questioned, but better done by scientists as well rather than 'nervous-nellies'. If atheism and non-atheism become litmus tests for our leaders we are in deeper doodoo than we already are.

As an aside, I didn't here all the interviews. Did anyone ask 'Sully' Sullenberger if he was a creationist or an evolutionist?

There is nothing in ID that is amenable to empirical questioning. How do you empirically test for the presence or absence of an extra-empirical designer? And there is not a single shred of empirical evidence that supports ID, while there are reams and ream of empirical evidence supporting evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory has been empirically interrogated for 150 year, and has only grown stronger.

ID is content-free, it merely attack evolution, while not offering any alternatives of its own:

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

922 Irenike  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:41:17pm

#913 Jim D, #914 Thanos, #915 Salamantis,

Thank you for the insight. Having been married for a long time, I totally forgot about that.

Sarcasm on: When I was a teenager, my mother pulled me aside and said: "Honey, when you are ready to find a man to settle down with, forget the money, the looks, the hard work, the kindness. If the dude can tap out a good rhythm, if he can whistle like a bird, go for it!" However, I disregarded her advice.

Sarcasm off: My husband is completely tone-deaf.

923 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:41:48pm
924 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:42:36pm

re: #917 Phil.

If you are counting on the economy to be terrible still in four years so we can win, that's a blazingly stupid and harmful strategy.

After we hit bottom, and I think we have, the economy will typically in even severe recessions recover at least 80 percent of it's value within 9 months.

I don't like Obama's policies either, but anti-science, anti-gay, and religious right curmudgeons helped him win. Religion has become nihilistic to most people under 25 if you haven't noticed, and the next election they'll be later twenties, and likely voting. What's the religious right doing to win them over? Is Jindal going to be inspiring to them when they find out he's anti science? The media is going to make that one year long smear even if by miracle he somehow gets the nomination. We will have Obama again, and good luck with that. Jindal's the worst person to put against Obama.

925 Irenike  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:42:59pm

re: #917 Phil.

Upding, Phil. I'm with you on this one.

926 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:44:55pm

re: #902 Irenike

Let's set eugenics aside, since we can all agree that it is immoral.

If what you say is true, why do some traits die out, but others do not, even when the environment changes?

Because the environment is not selecting against them. If some traits truly do cut a species' ability to survive and reproduce off at the knees when faced with changed enviromental exigencies, either mutations that allows the population to continue on occur and are selected, or the species dies out - becomes extinct. As has happened to 99% of terrestrial species.

927 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:45:25pm

re: #908 Salamantis

We should not make the perfect the enemy of the good, but we should also not cavilierly morph the unacceptable into the good enough.

Jindal's creation-bill-signing actions as Louisiana governor have ruled him unacceptable to me as a presidential candidate. I will never vote for him.

I'm really curious to know what state you're from exactly? Massachusetts? Rhode Island? How's that working out for you? At least they don't teach intelligent design in your state though, eh?

And McCain had solid antijihadi GWOT credentials; Jindal does not.

McCain doesn't know shit about economics (he said so himself) and that's sort of most people's overriding concern at the moment.

As for Jindal not having anti GWOT credentials?

Woops your bad

WASHINGTON A footnote of political history will remember it as the night of the purple fingers.

Ink was provided by a fledgling Republican congressman from Louisiana near the entrance of the House chamber Wednesday night. On their way to hear President Bush's State of the Union address, many lawmakers — mostly Republicans — dipped a digit and thrust up a purple index finger. Purple ink pads awaited GOP senators when they reached the House floor.

The salute to the voters in Sunday's Iraqi election was organized by Rep. Bobby Jindal, president of the freshman class of lawmakers.

"We all watched with joy as Iraqis dipped their fingers in ink and held them high, proudly proclaiming to the world that they had voted," recalled Jindal in a "Dear Colleagues" letter coordinating the congressional action. He provided the purple ink for both Republicans and Democrats.

"This symbolic gesture will tell Iraqis, and the world, that we believe in their cause and will stand beside them and all peoples who embrace freedom," said Jindal, the president of the House freshman class. "It's been said that partisanship stops at the water's edge. Let us again show that to be true by joining together in this symbolic gesture."

I personally think we'd be lucky to have this guy lead the country, especially after the damage Obama is going to do to it.

Rhodes Scholar? Check
MBA from Harvard Business School? Check
Executive Experience? Check
Popular Reforming Governor? Check
Strong on GWOT issues? He WAS the guy who started the purple finger thing, which apparently you have forgotten. Check

But if his support for intelligent design in Louisiana is really a dealbreaker for you, I guess I can't convince you. Best of luck with the Rockerfeller Republican thing though.

928 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:48:30pm

re: #917 Phil.

........... I have a PhD in Economics. ....................................

When did this crisis start? Late 2007. What happened shortly before in late 2006? Did a certain political party gain control of COngress for the first time in over a decade? What started the recession? Ridiculously inflated housing bubbles.

I'm in real estate investing and have been for 15 years. If you think the housing bubble problem started in late 2007, I don't know what field of economics you did your Phd in, but it sure as hell wasn't that one.

This has been building for years, and both parties can be blamed.

929 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:50:13pm

So a political demonstration is "cred in the war on terror?" I don't think so.

930 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:51:32pm

Phil, which outfit you from? Rockford? DI?

931 Irenike  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:54:10pm

re: #923 buzzsawmonkey

I just want to thank you for taking the time to be a fair adjudicator, and for standing up when you think a fellow lizard is being unfairly attacked.

I like debating in these creationism threads, but on the other hand, I don't like being alienated from fellow Lizards who agree with me on so many other issues. If I were a lurking head-chopper or a lurking Kos idiot, I'd be praying for more creationism threads so that Lizards could tear themselves apart over the issue.

Divided, we fall.

932 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:56:03pm

re: #920 Sharmuta

So it doesn't matter to you that he supports teaching creationism in public schools?

re: #924 Thanos

Yes, this matters to me, but in light of the fact that we are in the middle of a potential second Great Depression, it bothers me about as much as finding a pickle on my McDonalds cheeseburger. I don't like pickles, but I can take them off. If Jindal is representing his state (who overwhelmingly support teaching intelligent design in school) by passing that law, it doesn't really bother me so long as he doesn't plan to implement it at the federal level. In the age of Obama, where ethics don't count for anything, I am certainly not going to make the perfect the enemy of the good. I'm not setting litmus tests.

If you are counting on the economy to be terrible still in four years so we can win, that's a blazingly stupid and harmful strategy.

After we hit bottom, and I think we have, the economy will typically in even severe recessions recover at least 80 percent of it's value within 9 months.

I don't like Obama's policies either, but anti-science, anti-gay, and religious right curmudgeons helped him win. Religion has become nihilistic to most people under 25 if you haven't noticed, and the next election they'll be later twenties, and likely voting. What's the religious right doing to win them over? Is Jindal going to be inspiring to them when they find out he's anti science? The media is going to make that one year long smear even if by miracle he somehow gets the nomination. We will have Obama again, and good luck with that. Jindal's the worst person to put against Obama.

Um, I'm not hoping for the economy to fail. Do you expect me to take pleasure in gloating "I lost my job. Take that Obama!"

I do see an administration that is absolutely hostile to responsible people. We are now being called upon to bail out people's mortgages who were not. 93 percent of people pay their mortgages on time. Many people rent because they are saving for a house and pay their rent on time.

Obama chose to place the 7 percent ahead of all these people. Um....campaign issue anyone? We have an administration whose policies will prolong a recession that is potentially as severe as the Great Fucking Depression and your number one concern is....whether a Louisiana Governor supports intelligent design in his state?

Again, I guess I can't convince you. But I wish you all the best with the Rockerfeller Republican brand.

933 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:57:18pm

re: #923 buzzsawmonkey

You are, quite simply, wrong. Soona' said that s/he had "survived," or words to that effect, the experience of school-sponsored prayer. Well, so did I--in a public school, in a religion which was not my own. I can't say it was terribly scarring, either. That, of course, was in another country; I have never, and do not, support the practice here. At the same time, I will observe that sectarian prayers in public schools were the norm for most of this nation's existence; while I agree that they are better removed, I am more concerned with the injection of religion into a science class where it does not belong than I am with the prospect of freestanding prayer.

Likewise, the statement that Madison didn't say that religion and government should "never" be mixed is more or less true, in that the removal of religious expression from public life was by no means as thorough in Madison's time, or thereafter, as it has become in our own day. A prayer invocation at an inauguration, or at the beginning of a Congressional session is a "mixing of government and religion," but the Republic has nonetheless managed to survive that burden for its entire existence. Such mixings in no way make the US a "theocracy"--and for you to suggest they do makes you sound just a trifle unhinged.

As to Soona's reference to "your fear of anything that's of G-d"--not, as you misquote, "a fear of G-d"--that is a clear reference to the vibrant hostility you have openly and flagrantly displayed, time and again, towards anything which smacks of Christianity. One might quarrel with the way it was expressed, but the reality is plain to anyone who reads your posts.

In short, it is clear that Soona' nowhere argued for the teaching of creationism; nowhere argued for anything which remotely smacks of "theocracy"; nowhere argued, even, for the institution of prayer in a public school, alluding merely to his/her own experience with it. Soona' may view a broader tolerance for religion in the public arena more benignly than you or I, but that is a long, long way from arguing for the imposition of religion, religious teaching, or religious worship which you falsely claimed was being advocated.

Indeed, Soona' typified the very sort of religious person whom it is essential to ally with rather than alienate if the encroachments of the sort you claim to oppose are to be stopped.

So you have one interpretation of Soona's remarks, an interpretation that I consider to be rather byzantine, sophistric, and apologetic, while I have another interpretation, which I consider to be clearly reflected in Soona's words and overall attitude. But you will have to agree that Soona itself is the final arbiter of what soona means.

Let's ask Soona itself which is correct.

Soona:

1) Do you support or oppose ID being taught in public high schools along side evolution?

2) Do you support or oppose reintroducing prayer into public schools?

Oh, and 3) If your answer to both these questions is that you oppose them, then why have you posted as you have on this entire thread?

934 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:57:33pm
935 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:57:46pm

re: #928 Naso Tang

I'm in real estate investing and have been for 15 years. If you think the housing bubble problem started in late 2007, I don't know what field of economics you did your Phd in, but it sure as hell wasn't that one.

This has been building for years, and both parties can be blamed.

Which is why I linked to a Youtube page from 2004, when Republicans were ALREADY demanding Fannie and Freddie be reined in. Did you watch the link? Apparently not. Republicans are at fault too, but I would say a good 70 percent of the fault leans with the D side of the fence.

936 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 5:59:27pm

re: #932 Phil.

We aren't in the middle of the second great depression. However since you point it out the markets also recovered 80 pct of value in 9 months after bottoming there as well. The extended recession came tacked onto the end due to protectionism, etc. that was enacted.

If you don't want a repeat of Obama to prevent that, then you better not run Jindal.

937 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:02:33pm

re: #935 Phil.

Which is why I linked to a Youtube page from 2004, when Republicans were ALREADY demanding Fannie and Freddie be reined in. Did you watch the link? Apparently not. Republicans are at fault too, but I would say a good 70 percent of the fault leans with the D side of the fence.

Which has nothing to do with Jindal's creationism, or inability to mount the national stage due to his flaws.

938 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:02:59pm

re: #929 Thanos

So a political demonstration is "cred in the war on terror?" I don't think so.

Jindal was leading the fight when doing so was unpopular. What would you have liked him to do? This was his first year in Congress Did you want him to don a Kevlar and march into Baghdad?

What earns someone GWOT cred in your book exactly?

Face it, you are making the perfect the enemy of the good. That's perfectly within your rights, but at least own up to it.

939 Irenike  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:03:30pm

re: #926 Salamantis

Because the environment is not selecting against them. If some traits truly do cut a species' ability to survive and reproduce off at the knees when faced with changed enviromental exigencies, either mutations that allows the population to continue on occur and are selected, or the species dies out - becomes extinct. As has happened to 99% of terrestrial species.

Are the mutations (a.) generated randomly, and then selected for, or (b.) is there some kind of a pre-selection happening that allows some successful mutations to occur which will be what the environment will favor?

940 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:03:44pm
941 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:04:11pm

Ok Thanos,

Who is this perfect candidate of yours That Cannot Fail? Please spill the beans for the rest of us.

942 swamprat  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:04:52pm
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.....now that's funny!

943 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:05:02pm

re: #938 Phil.

No, I am making the fellow who thinks it's ok to trample the constitution and call himself a conservative the enemy of me.

944 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:07:52pm

re: #932 Phil.

I am certainly not going to make the perfect the enemy of the good. I'm not setting litmus tests.

No- what's been going on is the good candidates are rejected for the unelectable.

945 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:08:08pm

re: #935 Phil.

Which is why I linked to a Youtube page from 2004, when Republicans were ALREADY demanding Fannie and Freddie be reined in. Did you watch the link? Apparently not. Republicans are at fault too, but I would say a good 70 percent of the fault leans with the D side of the fence.

No I didn't see the link, I was simply responding to the post quoted. The Democrats wanted everyone to own a home, come hell or high water and I don't think many Republicans had the courage to oppose that.

Republicans trusted the system to do the right thing. Capitalism's self regulation and all that.

Both sides failed their responsibilities. If your math makes it 70/30 you are entitled to it. As far as I'm concerned when one is seriously wrong, it's 100% every time.

946 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:08:12pm

re: #943 Thanos

No, I am making the fellow who thinks it's ok to trample the constitution and call himself a conservative the enemy of me.

I'm not so sure you've read the Constitution. There isn't much about state government there. It's barely mentioned actually. If Jindal decides he wants to bring creationism at the federal level, I'll eat my words.

Again, who is this candidate of yours That Cannot Fail? I'm dying to know.

947 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:08:21pm

re: #927 Phil.

I'm really curious to know what state you're from exactly? Massachusetts? Rhode Island? How's that working out for you? At least they don't teach intelligent design in your state though, eh?

I live in Florida, where one of these bills has been beaten of in the last year, and another one is rolling down the legislative pike. So much for assuming.

McCain doesn't know shit about economics (he said so himself) and that's sort of most people's overriding concern at the moment.

I would expect him to have listened to folks who are respected in that area.

As for Jindal not having anti GWOT credentials?

Woops your bad

WASHINGTON A footnote of political history will remember it as the night of the purple fingers.

Ink was provided by a fledgling Republican congressman from Louisiana near the entrance of the House chamber Wednesday night. On their way to hear President Bush's State of the Union address, many lawmakers — mostly Republicans — dipped a digit and thrust up a purple index finger. Purple ink pads awaited GOP senators when they reached the House floor.

The salute to the voters in Sunday's Iraqi election was organized by Rep. Bobby Jindal, president of the freshman class of lawmakers.

"We all watched with joy as Iraqis dipped their fingers in ink and held them high, proudly proclaiming to the world that they had voted," recalled Jindal in a "Dear Colleagues" letter coordinating the congressional action. He provided the purple ink for both Republicans and Democrats.

"This symbolic gesture will tell Iraqis, and the world, that we believe in their cause and will stand beside them and all peoples who embrace freedom," said Jindal, the president of the House freshman class. "It's been said that partisanship stops at the water's edge. Let us again show that to be true by joining together in this symbolic gesture."

One political gesture, however heartfelt, does not GWOT credentials make.

I personally think we'd be lucky to have this guy lead the country, especially after the damage Obama is going to do to it.

Rhodes Scholar? Check
MBA from Harvard Business School? Check
Executive Experience? Check
Popular Reforming Governor? Check
Strong on GWOT issues? He WAS the guy who started the purple finger thing, which apparently you have forgotten. Check

But if his support for intelligent design in Louisiana is really a dealbreaker for you, I guess I can't convince you. Best of luck with the Rockerfeller Republican thing though.

His own college biology professor expressed dismay at his signing of that creationist legislation in Louisiana. And it is now costing his state, which so heavily depends upon tourist dollars, convention business. That was not a reformation, but a deformation. He also screwed the pooch on the congressional raises. And I'm really impressed (not)with how much Obama's Harvard education is helping him run things...but at least he didn't assert his belief that an ad hoc exorcism by a campus Christian group might cure cancer.

948 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:08:22pm

re: #941 Phil.

I don't know yet, but I am going to focus on the midterms first because right now they are more important. Jindal's the guy I know I won't vote for, there's plenty of time before 2012 and I'm not going to be talked into selecting a candidate now. So get lost with the "you should love Jindal for prez in 2012" noise, it's too early and you are likely to make people hate him all the more if you keep this up.

My candidate for now is "not Jindal".

949 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:11:56pm

re: #946 Phil.


If Jindal decides he wants to bring creationism at the federal level, I'll eat my words.


You aren't going to get the chance Phil, Jindal won't make it and can't cut it on nat'l stage.

950 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:12:41pm

re: #931 Irenike

I just want to thank you for taking the time to be a fair adjudicator, and for standing up when you think a fellow lizard is being unfairly attacked.

I like debating in these creationism threads, but on the other hand, I don't like being alienated from fellow Lizards who agree with me on so many other issues. If I were a lurking head-chopper or a lurking Kos idiot, I'd be praying for more creationism threads so that Lizards could tear themselves apart over the issue.

Divided, we fall.

Buzzmonkey thought wrong; Soona's remarks richly deserved my responses. I note that Sharmuta and others have similarly responded, but Buzz hasn't attempted to jump their bones. He unfairly singled me out because he has a personal dislike for me, and the more he displays it, the more I feel inclined to reciprocate.

951 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:16:04pm

re: #932 Phil.

Yes, this matters to me, but in light of the fact that we are in the middle of a potential second Great Depression, it bothers me about as much as finding a pickle on my McDonalds cheeseburger. I don't like pickles, but I can take them off. If Jindal is representing his state (who overwhelmingly support teaching intelligent design in school) by passing that law, it doesn't really bother me so long as he doesn't plan to implement it at the federal level. In the age of Obama, where ethics don't count for anything, I am certainly not going to make the perfect the enemy of the good. I'm not setting litmus tests.

If we elect a not-so-stealth activist creationist candidate as our next prez, there's a significantly higher chance that our entire public educational system could find itself in a nasty pickle, and I'm not willing to take that rsk.

952 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:17:43pm

Btw, one thing we should all agree on is that 2012 is not going to be nearly as bad as 2008. The R's had a MAJOR drag on the ticket where the D's will have a major drag on the ticket in 2012.

I hope we can all agree on this though:

A little perspective. At this point in his presidency, Jimmy Carter's poll rating was 71 percent. Obama's current poll rating is 68.

The "mainstream" media is still in the tank for Obama. It's also quickly losing its relevance: The San Francisco Chronicle may cease to exist within a year.

Troubled San Francisco paper in danger of closing

953 Phil.  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:18:52pm

re: #949 Thanos

You aren't going to get the chance Phil, Jindal won't make it and can't cut it on nat'l stage.

You aren't paying attention then. Jindal is ALREADY on the national stage. He's giving the official response to Obama. Not a decade from now. Not a year from now. Tonight.

954 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:18:53pm

re: #938 Phil.

Jindal was leading the fight when doing so was unpopular. What would you have liked him to do? This was his first year in Congress Did you want him to don a Kevlar and march into Baghdad?

What earns someone GWOT cred in your book exactly?

Face it, you are making the perfect the enemy of the good. That's perfectly within your rights, but at least own up to it.

Some experience with the issues is what is required. Jindal has about as much of that as Obama did when he began running, and we can all see where THAT is getting us...

955 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:20:31pm

re: #939 Irenike

Are the mutations (a.) generated randomly, and then selected for, or (b.) is there some kind of a pre-selection happening that allows some successful mutations to occur which will be what the environment will favor?

A. The genetic mutations are random, but the environmental selection is nonrandom.

956 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:24:09pm

re: #953 Phil.

No he's not, this is his debut. Most americans outside conservative circles don't know who the hell he is, and don't care to at this point.

If he were to become the nominee however, everyone would know his name, and this stuff would be associated it with it, you can be sure of it. The left wants us to run Jindal, that's why I don't. David Gregory's non mention of any of the controversy tells me all I need to know about that garden path.

957 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:27:20pm

Why are you posting old newslinks and trying to change the subject Phil? The SF chronicle links been posted multiple times already.

958 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:28:05pm

re: #940 buzzsawmonkey

I am reading the plain words that were written; you are overlaying them with your own demons. If that makes my interpretation "sophistic, byzantine, and apologetic," I am perfectly content to live with that, as it at least has the merit of not being the product of hallucenogenic fantasy.

Hallucinogenic fantasies are in the delusions of the beholder. Sometimes people in deams do not realize that they are dreaming. But if you don't think that Soona was expressing the opinion that organized school prayer and ID being taught in public high school science class was not a concern, it is YOU who are dreaming.

Who knows if the poster is still even here at present--or, if so, still following this thread, or, if that, interested in responding to your augmented efforts at bullying? It will be interesting to see what significance you will concoct of any failure to get a response in your favored timeline.

Soona may choose to remain silent (or even lie) because it prefers not to undermine you by speaking its true feelings on the issue, preferring to see you continue to attack me, the adversary of creationism in public schools, than to undermine your rationale for doing so. So I guess, whatever Soona says or does not say, it is not dispositive, and my questions were thus a pointless exercise.

959 Shanimal1918  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:28:17pm

Romney got my vote in 2008, I hope he runs again in 2012.

I think the GOP chances in 2010 and 2012 all depend on how the economy goes over the next year. If raising taxes and increasing spending were to be a good thing, I think Obama will be in great shape. But history isn't in his favor, as Reagan-omics proved that cutting taxes works wonders during a recession. I'd hate to want to see the economy get worse but at least there will be a silver lining if it does ;)

960 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:32:20pm

Which group you from Phil? I don't think I saw an answer. Are you with DI? Rockford? CFC? Fieldstone? Who?

961 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:33:28pm

re: #946 Phil.

I'm not so sure you've read the Constitution. There isn't much about state government there. It's barely mentioned actually. If Jindal decides he wants to bring creationism at the federal level, I'll eat my words.

Again, who is this candidate of yours That Cannot Fail? I'm dying to know.

It's called the 14th Amendment; it applies federal constitutional guarantess to the states. Guarantees such as the establishment Clause and the free Exercise Clause of the 1st Amendment.

As to a candidate, we don't know at this point who it will be any more than the Dems knew at the beginning of 2005. But if it is Jindal, it will be with my opposition and without my vote.

962 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:33:57pm
963 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:36:42pm

re: #953 Phil.

You aren't paying attention then. Jindal is ALREADY on the national stage. He's giving the official response to Obama. Not a decade from now. Not a year from now. Tonight.

And to groom him as a Republican national standardbearer is, in my opinion, a grievous mistake that will cost the party dearly, should he be the nominee in 2012. I would much have preferred Steele give the response.

964 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 6:57:41pm
965 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:01:35pm

re: #964 Iron Fist

I don't think people are freaked out by Christians, they are freaked out by the far right Christian Pacs. It's not about Religion, it's about coercive religion Ironfist.

966 Teh Flowah  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:01:59pm

@ Federalism poster

Federalism isn't a blank check to do whatever you want as long as it's not done at the federal level. We don't allow discrimination based on race, religion, national origin, sex, blah blah blah on ANY level. Likewise, separation of church and state, which the issue of creationism would certainly fall under, is not something that is done on a state by state basis. It's a goddamn law of the land.

I feel that hiding behind the word federalism to excuse Jindal's weak as hell stance on ID/Creationism is utter cowardice. If you believe in Creationism, SAY so. Don't hide behind "academic freedom" and "federalism." These two ideas have nothing to do with your creationist leanings, don't hijack them.

967 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:02:19pm

IF: should have said "socially coercive religion".

968 Sissy Willis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:18:45pm

Don't forget me, another Darwinian Libertarian who's had enough of these mumbo jumbo types.

969 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:24:08pm
970 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:25:12pm

re: #962 buzzsawmonkey

One would call that the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority."

Actually, no--you're wrong. I don't have a personal dislike for you; indeed, I have more than once expressed an admiration for a number of things you've posted. I do, however, have a vibrant dislike for the bigotry you frequently display, which is that of an ex-Christian who is working off his anger, scar tissue, or whatever on those who are still Christians. That you are adept at cloaking this bigotry in "tolerance language" does not alter the fact that it is bigotry, and does not make it less obvious.

I demonstrate no anti-Christian bigotry, and I dare you to cite where I have; I have only demonstrated a preference for my own Pagan faith, which you have openly and repeatedly despised (ebon pot meet the stainlerss steel kettle on the religious bigotry issue), and against any faith, including my own, forcing its own sectarian religious dogmas on those who do not share it, or them.

I "singled you out" because you were engaging in a lengthy and unjustified attack on someone to whom you ascribed attitudes and opinions which were not expressed in the posts you claimed expressed them. Whether that poster holds the opinions you claim or not, they were not said where, when, and as you said. That you resorted to misquoting said posts to justify your position suggests you know full well that your position is shaky--as does your resorting to directing smears and abuse towards me when you were challenged.

I quoted the posts verbatim. But it is evident from the way you worded this that you have been checking the archives, and been quite understandably dismayed in a past thread:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And let me also post a link to a post Soona made in THIS thread:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]


Once again: the objective should be to convince those who are religious that their own religious freedom is protected by keeping science and religion separate. If you cannot do that--if, instead, you feel compelled to abuse and vilify those who do not perfectly fit your Procrustean bed--you, despite your impressive command of information relating to evolution, are a political liability and a threat to the goal of maintaining religious freedom and scientific integrity in this country.

It protects no one's religious freedom to desire that ID be taught in public high school science classes, as I - and a considerable number of other posters - saw Soona advocating in the comments I linked in this post, nor does it keep science and religion separate. Rather, it forces them together, doing egregious damage to both of them in the process, and violate both the Establishment Clause, by favoring some religious dogmas over others, and the Free Exercise Clause, by teaching those religious dogmas to the children of people who neither share them nor desire that their children be taught them.

And covering for such people is uncool, too.

971 Teh Flowah  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:30:32pm

re: #969 Iron Fist


Now, by socially coercive, what do you mean by that? Against abortion on demand? Not my thing, really, but the country is pretty fractured on that issue, and has been since Roe v. Wade. The people to whom pro-abortion is the litmus test aren't going to vote Republican no matter what the Party does, though. W4e simply can't get to the Left of Obama on the issue. No one can except, maybe, Peter Singer.

Actually, pro-choice people do often vote for Republicans. The rational ones know that there's very little a president or senator can do to overturn abortion rights, even if by some miracle Roe v. Wade were overturned. Abortion was legal and existed long before Roe v. Wade was decided. And even in red states where there have been votes about abortion, the answer was resoundingly against restricting those rights. People who know the score don't decide based on such issues as abortion and gay marriage.

If a candidate tells you that he thinks it's an issue for the Supreme Court, or that he's going to do some kind of Constitutional amendment, know that he's dodging the issue, passing the buck, never to touch it again after the election after he's got your vote. Of course, the single issue voters are much too stupid to figure that out.

972 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:33:34pm

re: #969 Iron Fist

IF, you know exactly who I am talking about, we've had this discussion before. Socially coercive is DI, stuffing science in classrooms. Socially coercive is DI making the Schaivo issue a lampoon for Republican pundits to stick themselves with. Socially coercive is the crowd that put the marriage ammendment through, again DI/Fieldstone/Rockford, Chalcedon etc.

The crowd that is all anti- and pro not much except their particular brand of religion.

973 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:37:05pm

re: #969 Iron Fist

Where did you get the idea that I don't like Palin? I"m a big fan, she's gov of my home state and I trust her not to insert her nose in others business because of that. She comes from a state where people will not show you ID, they all tote guns, your word is your bond, and your business is your own. She's a creationist I certainly can support, it's not about religion at all with me.

974 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:40:28pm

The 1.3 percent stay at home figure comes from CNN, the 20 percent conservative crossover vote comes from Post election analysis over at big lizards, I've posted it here many times.

975 BigAl  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:53:25pm

Hey, Phil, we got their attention...well you did. I'll buy you beer. Nice goin'

BigAl

976 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 8:13:24pm

re: #975 BigAl

Hey, Phil, we got their attention...well you did. I'll buy you beer. Nice goin'

BigAl

Then Jindal delevered a snoozer of an Obama speech reply and lost it all over again.

977 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 9:17:37pm
978 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 9:43:57pm
979 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 9:58:51pm
980 Proximate  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 10:02:49pm

I am and have always been dead set against ID, I've had countless arguments with young-earth creationists... but of late LGF seems less hospitable towards believers of any stripe. Just getting that sense.

981 LonnyE  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 10:04:29pm

re: #217 SFGoth

Whenever I play Germany in Hearts of Iron, I invade Italy in early 1939. No one gives a shit. I take the top 1/3 pretty quickly and leave Italy with a rump state. Not very resource-rich and too much effort to police. But I get to invade France from the south east which makes it a breeze.

Wow Hearts of Iron. Didn't think much of the game. Hopefully Paradox will do a better job with HOI3.

982 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 10:51:21pm

re: #978 buzzsawmonkey

Your anti-Christian bigotry stinks to High Nebula, or whatever you believe in; your entire pattern of attack in this thread demonstrates it. I do not have a stack of your past posts to cull for this purpose, nor have I bothered to assemble one, or "check" any "archive"; in my opinion, people who occupy their time in this way--as you have in attempting to trash someone in this thread--are terribly sad monomaniacs.

First you make a vague slanderous claim, then fail to back it up with referenced specifics. And then you try to slime me - and for what? Because, unlike you, I DID back up my claims with referenced specifics

You did not "quote posts verbatim" upthread; to the contrary, you paraphrased in such a way as to engage in intentional distortion. That is despicable. I have called you out on that once; there is no need to repeat myself.

People are free to check upthread, by searching Soona's name, and judge for themselve whether or not they consider my QUOTES (not paraphrases) to be distortions. I have much more confidence in their independent judgment than I have in yours.

I agree that it is not a protection of religious freedom to have ID taught in public school science classes; I have said as much many times. Your turnaround phrasing above attempts to suggest that I have said the opposite; this, too, is a despicable and dishonest act on your part.

No, the point was to point out what I perceive as being a manifest contradiction between your words and your actions. You claim to be a strong supporter of keeping ID out of public school science classes, but I cannot remember the last post you addressed to a supporter of including it, taking issue with their position; instead, I see you taking issue with those of us who DO see it as a problem, and who are ourselves taking issue with those who don't - and I see you doing so in a most slanderous and execrable manner.

There is absolutely nothing in the links you provide in your above post that suggests the poster is in fact advocating the teaching of creationism or ID. The posts do take a less dogmatic "Hassan chop!" view of the matter than some people here do, with which intelligent people can disagree, but nowhere--not in any one of the posts you link to--is there any advocacy of teaching creationism or ID, nor any suggestion that they are co-equal with evolution. Needless to say, if there were such an outright statement you would have quoted it verbatim; the fact that you do not, but instead marshall a line of links you can play percentages few will check, is once again an employment of dishonest tactics used to attempt to carry a point you know in your own heart you cannot prove.

Once again, by tactics such as you are using--which are calculated to insult and alienate people whom you should be seeking to persuade--you are demonstrating that you are a liability to the political cause of religious freedom and scientific integrity which you claim to espouse. You are dedicating yourself to destroying alliances which you should be building, if you indeed wish the cause you claim to support to succeed.

Like evolutionary theory, I have presented checkable evidence; like the Disco Institute, you have only presented denigrating rhetoric.

And PLEASE check the links I posted in #970. Then check Buzz's rhetorics against them. And draw your own conclusions. About what's said there by Soona, about my opinion of what's said there, about Buzz's opinion of what's said there, about Buzz' opinion of my referencing them, and about Buzz's opinion of me.

I'm not telling you what to think here; I'm saying check the evidence, and decide for yourself. And don't let Buzz tell you what to think, either.

983 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 10:59:25pm

re: #978 buzzsawmonkey

reformatted

Your anti-Christian bigotry stinks to High Nebula, or whatever you believe in; your entire pattern of attack in this thread demonstrates it. I do not have a stack of your past posts to cull for this purpose, nor have I bothered to assemble one, or "check" any "archive"; in my opinion, people who occupy their time in this way--as you have in attempting to trash someone in this thread--are terribly sad monomaniacs.

First you make a vague slanderous claim, then fail to back it up with referenced specifics. And then you try to slime me - and for what? Because, unlike you, I DID back up my claims with referenced specifics

You did not "quote posts verbatim" upthread; to the contrary, you paraphrased in such a way as to engage in intentional distortion. That is despicable. I have called you out on that once; there is no need to repeat myself.

People are free to check upthread, by searching Soona's name, and judge for themselve whether or not they consider my QUOTES (not paraphrases) to be distortions. I have far more confidence in their independent judgment than I have in yours.

I agree that it is not a protection of religious freedom to have ID taught in public school science classes; I have said as much many times. Your turnaround phrasing above attempts to suggest that I have said the opposite; this, too, is a despicable and dishonest act on your part.

No, the point was to point out what I perceive as being a manifest contradiction between your words and your actions. You claim to be a strong supporter of keeping ID out of public school science classes, but I cannot remember the last post you addressed to a supporter of including it, taking issue with their position; instead, I see you taking issue with those of us who DO see it as a problem, and who are ourselves taking issue with those who don't - and I see you doing so in a most slanderous and execrable manner.

There is absolutely nothing in the links you provide in your above post that suggests the poster is in fact advocating the teaching of creationism or ID. The posts do take a less dogmatic "Hassan chop!" view of the matter than some people here do, with which intelligent people can disagree, but nowhere--not in any one of the posts you link to--is there any advocacy of teaching creationism or ID, nor any suggestion that they are co-equal with evolution. Needless to say, if there were such an outright statement you would have quoted it verbatim; the fact that you do not, but instead marshall a line of links you can play percentages few will check, is once again an employment of dishonest tactics used to attempt to carry a point you know in your own heart you cannot prove.

Once again, by tactics such as you are using--which are calculated to insult and alienate people whom you should be seeking to persuade--you are demonstrating that you are a liability to the political cause of religious freedom and scientific integrity which you claim to espouse. You are dedicating yourself to destroying alliances which you should be building, if you indeed wish the cause you claim to support to succeed.

Like evolutionary theory, I have presented checkable evidence; like the Disco Institute, you have only presented denigrating rhetoric.

And, people, PLEASE check the links I posted in #970. Then check Buzz's rhetorics against them. And draw your own conclusions. About what's said there by Soona, about my opinion of what's said there, about Buzz's opinion of what's said there, about Buzz' opinion of my referencing them, and about Buzz's opinion of me.

I'm not telling you what to think here; I'm saying check the evidence, and decide for yourself. And don't let Buzz tell you what to think, either.

984 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 11:12:16pm

One other point, regarding this passage of yours:

Needless to say, if there were such an outright statement you would have quoted it verbatim; the fact that you do not, but instead marshall a line of links you can play percentages few will check, is once again an employment of dishonest tactics used to attempt to carry a point you know in your own heart you cannot prove.

On the contrary, I consider providing links to a post to be tantamount to, in fact even better than, quoting that post, because with a single click of a finger, one can peruse the entire original. You criticized me before for quoting portions of posts, now you criticize me for referencing the whole things. I guess there's just no pleasing or satisfying those who are, come-hell-or-high-water, bound and determined not to be.

If one does not think that one's evidence could prove one's case, one would be unwise to link to it. But I did provide referencing links. And you did not. You only provided snarky bloviation laced with oily malice.

So much for which of us knows in their own heart what they can prove, and which of us knows what they cannot. And to what depths some will go to attempt to obfuscate that fact.

Once again, they are in post #970. I invite all and sundry to peruse them, and to come to their own conclusions regarding both buzz's assertions, and mine.

985 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 6:46:20am

Regarding music and art in evolutionary theory, James Q Wilson reviews "The Art Instinct: Beauty, Pleasure, and Human Evolution" here:

[Link: www.newsweek.com...]


A quote:

Art suffuses our lives. Whether it's bluegrass, heavy metal, Frank Sinatra or Mozart, music moves us all. On a trip to a foreign city, visiting an art museum is a mandatory exercise. Imaginative writing affects many of us, though—alas—with decreasing frequency.

Why should art be important? Being seen as an "art lover" may increase our status, but otherwise art is not useful. Yet art has been part of the human experience since Paleolithic man painted on the walls of caves in Lascaux, France, and Altamira, Spain, more than 30,000 years ago. Art preceded cities, agriculture and writing.

Denis Dutton, an art professor in New Zealand, has proposed a bold new explanation. He argues that humankind's universal interest in art is the result of human evolution. We enjoy sex, grasp facial expressions, understand logic and spontaneously acquire language—all of which make it easier for us to survive and produce children. In "The Art Instinct: Beauty, Pleasure, and Human Evolution," Dutton contends that an interest in art belongs on this list of evolutionary adaptations.

986 Miles Smit  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:12:56am

re: #381 Occasional Reader

This was echoed in a BBC documentary from the early oughties about teaching evolution, showcasing teachers who used class time to argue that if you accept Darwin's theory, you cannot believe in God.

Tellingly, Dawkins said in that same program that he objected to religious belief because it was not subjected to empirical testing. Those like myself who object to Darwinism as a variant of evolution turned into a sacred cow have the same complaint: Dawkins did not ask whether high school students taught evolution as a fixed truth could account for how it was established empirically or scientifically.

987 Vanceone  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 10:05:07am

I'll agree with Buzzsaw: Salamantis, you do stink of bigotry. I read most of this thread, and it's quite clear that anyone expressing any sort of support for Christian belief is dinged--regardless of whether they preach "ID" or not. There is open mockery of Judeo-Christian values as being important to this country.

Guess what, folks: in your attempts to paint being a Christian as being the same as an Islamic fundamentalist, as several here do in spirit if not explicitly, you are guaranteeing the destruction of your own country. No country has or can exist when fundamental morals are destroyed. Christianity is not just ID, but belittling the belief that humans are special creations of God leads, inexorably, to leftism.

988 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 2:11:21pm

re: #987 Vanceone

I'll agree with Buzzsaw: Salamantis, you do stink of bigotry. I read most of this thread, and it's quite clear that anyone expressing any sort of support for Christian belief is dinged--regardless of whether they preach "ID" or not. There is open mockery of Judeo-Christian values as being important to this country.

Guess what, folks: in your attempts to paint being a Christian as being the same as an Islamic fundamentalist, as several here do in spirit if not explicitly, you are guaranteeing the destruction of your own country. No country has or can exist when fundamental morals are destroyed. Christianity is not just ID, but belittling the belief that humans are special creations of God leads, inexorably, to leftism.

I would expect this comment from one such as you, Vanceone. Anyone can check your comment history and see that you spy anti-Christian bigotry behind every bush.

989 Emphasis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 3:01:15pm

re: #686 Salamantis

And I will once again post my answer; the same one I reply with every time you regurgitate this post:

>Organisms possess the genetic urge to produce copies of their genes (offspring). Those species that didn't possess that urge died out of the gene pool very quickly, and individuals within the species that lack such an urge do not pass their genes along within the species. It's a matter of simple environmental selection, and no intelligent purposive programmer is required.

990 Emphasis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 3:06:15pm

re: #989 Emphasis

Salamander
As I previously responded to your message, the "urge" you mention is the equivalent of the programing I indicated. Specifically where do you think the "urge" came from? Who or what put it there?

991 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:43:16pm

re: #990 Emphasis

Salamander
As I previously responded to your message, the "urge" you mention is the equivalent of the programing I indicated. Specifically where do you think the "urge" came from? Who or what put it there?

The answer is the same as before; it evolved. It evolved into existence. Just like the rest of the traits, both behavioral and configurational, of all of the different terrestrial species did.

Continuing to mantrically repost and repeat an already-answered question is an exercise in futility.

And calling genes programs so you can try to invoke the existence of a programmer is just the same substanceless semantic trick that creationists play when they call the universe 'creation'; then maintain that creations have to have creators. It's a variation of the long-discredited watchmaker fallacy.

992 Emphasis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 10:36:43pm

re: #991 Salamantis

>The answer is the same as before; it evolved. It evolved into existence.

993 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 11:15:00pm

Maybe you should read this blog post Charles linked to, Emphasis:

[Link: copiousdissent.blogspot.com...]

Not that you'll be able to understand it...

994 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 11:25:44pm

And here are some other links, for Emphasis' edification and enlightenment:

[Link: www.evolutionary-philosophy.net...]

[Link: www.dorak.info...]

[Link: www.utm.edu...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

995 emphasis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 7:21:13am

Salamantis said
>The answer is the same as before; it evolved. It evolved into existence.

996 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 10:46:43am

Just like I thouught; all you can do is seize upon a single quote of mine you think there might be a problem with.

Well, there's no problem with it; the human eye evolved into existence also, and there are many intermediate stages between a light sensitive spot and the complex camera eye, all readily found in various organisms, just like there are many intermediate stages between simple cell division and human reproduction, ALSO all readily found in various organisms.

Incredulity is not an argument; it is an admission of either ignorance or denseness. Hopefully, it's the first, since the second cannot be remedied. But then again, if it is willful ignorance, the remedy is unwanted by the afflicted.

997 Emphasis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 11:04:31am

re: #991 Salamantis

Your position is based on faith not on fact; ironically this is a cornerstone of all religions. It would seem that those like you that so object to ID do so not because their position is wrong (though it could very well be), but because it offends your gods.

Incidentally I do understand, furthermore I even understand the Clydesdale size horse manure you continually write.

998 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 12:11:25pm

re: #997 Emphasis

Your position is based on faith not on fact; ironically this is a cornerstone of all religions. It would seem that those like you that so object to ID do so not because their position is wrong (though it could very well be), but because it offends your gods.

Incidentally I do understand, furthermore I even understand the Clydesdale size horse manure you continually write.

Actually, this is not your first attempt to reduce empirical science to the level of dogmatic faith, which is what religious dogmatists tend to attempt when tthey cannot elevate dogmatic faith to the level of empirical science.

Either attempt fails, however, because the essential difference - the presence of vast masses of empirical evidence for evolutionary theory vs. the abject and utter lack of a single solitary shred of empirical evidence for creationiosm/ID, remains, as Daniel C. Dennett, past president of the American Philosophical Association, trenchantly notes:

Show Me the Science
[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

The focus on intelligent design has, paradoxically, obscured something else: genuine scientific controversies about evolution that abound. In just about every field there are challenges to one established theory or another. The legitimate way to stir up such a storm is to come up with an alternative theory that makes a prediction that is crisply denied by the reigning theory - but that turns out to be true, or that explains something that has been baffling defenders of the status quo, or that unifies two distant theories at the cost of some element of the currently accepted view.

To date, the proponents of intelligent design have not produced anything like that. No experiments with results that challenge any mainstream biological understanding. No observations from the fossil record or genomics or biogeography or comparative anatomy that undermine standard evolutionary thinking.

Instead, the proponents of intelligent design use a ploy that works something like this. First you misuse or misdescribe some scientist's work. Then you get an angry rebuttal. Then, instead of dealing forthrightly with the charges leveled, you cite the rebuttal as evidence that there is a "controversy" to teach.

Note that the trick is content-free. You can use it on any topic. "Smith's work in geology supports my argument that the earth is flat," you say, misrepresenting Smith's work. When Smith responds with a denunciation of your misuse of her work, you respond, saying something like: "See what a controversy we have here? Professor Smith and I are locked in a titanic scientific debate. We should teach the controversy in the classrooms." And here is the delicious part: you can often exploit the very technicality of the issues to your own advantage, counting on most of us to miss the point in all the difficult details.

William Dembski, one of the most vocal supporters of intelligent design, notes that he provoked Thomas Schneider, a biologist, into a response that Dr. Dembski characterizes as "some hair-splitting that could only look ridiculous to outsider observers." What looks to scientists - and is - a knockout objection by Dr. Schneider is portrayed to most everyone else as ridiculous hair-splitting.

In short, no science. Indeed, no intelligent design hypothesis has even been ventured as a rival explanation of any biological phenomenon. This might seem surprising to people who think that intelligent design competes directly with the hypothesis of non-intelligent design by natural selection. But saying, as intelligent design proponents do, "You haven't explained everything yet," is not a competing hypothesis. Evolutionary biology certainly hasn't explained everything that perplexes biologists. But intelligent design hasn't yet tried to explain anything.

to be continued...

999 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 12:23:52pm

continued...

Instead of spending more than $1 million a year on publishing books and articles for non-scientists and on other public relations efforts, the Discovery Institute should finance its own peer-reviewed electronic
journal. This way, the organization could live up to its self-professed image: the doughty defenders of brave iconoclasts bucking the establishment.

For now, though, the theory they are promoting is exactly what George Gilder, a long-time affiliate of the Discovery Institute, has said it is: "Intelligent design itself does not have any content." [Sal: another Disco Institute fellow, Michael Medved, has admitted the same thing]

Since there is no content, there is no "controversy" to teach about in biology class. But here is a good topic for a high school course on current events and politics: Is intelligent design a hoax? And if so, how
was it perpetrated?

Sal: In other words, your creationist/ID dogma remains baseless groundless bovine fecus, however much you attempt to perfume it, and the reason that creationist/IDers constantly ask questions of evolution (which evolution routinely answers, although the answers are illegitimately dismissed or ignored) while failing to answer ANY of the questions put to them is because all they have to offer is snarky rhetoric attacking evolutionary theory; they utterly lack any empicially supported alternative of their own to proffer in its place.

Please inform me as to a SINGLE empirically testable hypothesis that has been proffered by creationism/ID. Please inform me of the existence of a SINGLE SHRED of credible empirical evidence that supports it. Please inform me of a SINGLE SHRED of credible empirical evidence that contradicts evolutionary theory.

You can't. There IS none. None WHATSOEVER. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Nil. Nada. No testable empirical hypothesis, no supporting empirical evidence, and no empirical evidence contradicting the evolutionary theory you so dogmatically rail against.

Come back when you have some actual fucking SCIENCE.

1000 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 2:31:05pm
1001 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 8:28:26pm

re: #1000 beo

beo

Karma: 0
Registered since: Nov 2, 2004 at 10:33 am

No. of comments posted: 40
No. of links posted: 0

Sal: number of recent comments: one (the one immediately before this one).

I just don't know how we can possibly make it without you; I guess we'll just have to struggle on somehow...

/


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