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Fake Outrage of the Weekend: Dan Savage, the ‘Vile Anti-Christian Bully’

“Journalism on the Edge” attendees walk out when things get too edgy
Wingnuts • Views: 27,045

They’re at it again. The heirs of Andrew at breitbart.com have launched a full-scale attack against columnist Dan Savage today. As I write this, there are nine, count 'em, nine front page hit pieces on Savage, with titles like “OBAMA WHITE HOUSE FUNDRAISES FOR ANTI-CHRISTIAN BULLY SAVAGE,” and “NSFW: SAVAGE’S NASTIEST BULLYING ON TAPE.”

The partisan hounds are baying for Savage’s hide because they think they can tie him to President Obama, of course. In the inverted reality wingnut universe, Dan Savage becomes further evidence that Obama is an anti-Christian “other,” and proves that liberals are the real bullies. (Plus, Obama eats dogs.)

This latest impressive barrage of wingnut pearl-clutching was prompted by Dan Savage’s keynote speech for a high school journalism convention, titled “Journalism on the Edge.” If you’ve ever read a single thing Dan Savage has written, you know that this is a guy who doesn’t beat around the bush or mince words; but quite a few of the journalism students at “Journalism on the Edge” didn’t want to hear his edgy criticism of Biblical prohibitions on homosexuality, and walked out.

Which seems a little strange for, you know, journalists to do. I’m pretty sure it was the word “bullshit” that pushed their buttons. A little too edgy.

Savage, meanwhile, has apologized for insulting the students who walked out, but is not withdrawing his critique of Biblical literalism as an excuse for anti-gay bullying and bigotry: On ‘Bullshit’ and ‘Pansy-Assed’.

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322 comments

1 bratwurst  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:09:45pm

From the same people up in arms about the pervasive scourge of anti-white racism.

2 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:11:31pm

WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE MAJORITY FOR A CHANGE?!?!?!?!?!

3 erik_t  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:15:01pm

The sane 95% of the world continues to not care.

4 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:15:36pm

Read his apology, or as I see, rebuttal.

We are dealing with imbeciles, and unfortunately must navigate their mindset.

5 Lidane  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:18:35pm

re: #4 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

We are dealing with imbeciles, and unfortunately must navigate their mindset.

And there are a group of people (Faux News, the RWNJ howler monkeys on talk radio, etc.) who are determined to keep people stupid so that we keep having to navigate this shit.

Honestly, at this point the nutjobs need to get over the fact that there are LGBT people in the world. It's been around since the beginning of time and it's not going away no how much hellfire and brimstone they throw at it.

6 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:18:51pm

Dan Savage was and is correct about the bible. Let those fools walk out. They are blind to reality and are in a thankfully shrinking minority in this country.

7 allegro  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:20:40pm

re: #6 Gus

Dan Savage was and is correct about the bible. Let those fools walk out. They are blind to reality and are in a thankfully growing minority in this country.

They like it better that way so they can moar martyr cookies.

8 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:25:45pm

I didn't hear anything worth apologizing for.

He did say bullshit. Sorry.

9 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:27:50pm

Now gays are the bullies?

LOL

10 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:28:15pm

re: #9 Kronocide

Now gays are the bullies?

LOL

Wingnut Logic 101

11 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:29:02pm

I'd noticed that there was some new kerfuffle going on, but didn't bother to look into what it was about until an hour or so ago.

Y'know, I don't like it when people are rude about religion, but I'm having a really hard time mustering up any pity here. Day in and day out I hear about how horrible and disgustingly brutal some of the Sharia punishments are, and how Muslims must stop following such barbaric laws.

Then suddenly, when the shoe's on the other foot and someone is dissing the Old Testament, it's an OUTRAGE, an unfair attack on all of Christianity. Yeah, doesn't feel so great when it's your religion getting slammed, does it?

Welcome to my world. //

Now I'm going to bow out because I'm not exactly pleased with myself for the level of schadenfreude I'm feeling at present.

12 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:29:04pm

Thin skinned believers. He shouldn't have apologized in my opinion, but whatever.

13 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:32:06pm

re: #11 CuriousLurker

Now I'm going to bow out because I'm not exactly pleased with myself for the level of schadenfreude I'm feeling at present.

Give it to me, I'll finish it off. I'm a glutton like that.

14 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:32:12pm

It's all a diversion to keep attention away from the substance of what Savage said, that using Biblical literalism as an excuse for anti-gay bigotry is rank hypocrisy.

15 Cheechako  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:34:54pm

re: #11 CuriousLurker

Day in and day out I hear about how horrible and disgustingly brutal some of the Sharia punishments are, and how Muslims must stop following such barbaric laws.

The way the Country is progressing we should be more afraid of "Evangelical Christian Law" than Sharia Law.

16 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:36:31pm

The first walker came before the word 'bullshit'. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a plan to walk out on him, just waiting for the right moment.

There was definitely a plan to have nine articles about it at Breitbart, weeks after the fact.

17 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:36:39pm

re: #15 Cheechako

The way the Country is progressing we should be more afraid of "Evangelical Christian Law" than Sharia Law.

Well here in the U.S....of course. The most shariah we're going to see over here are Muslims performing their daily prayers or cooking a dish free of sin.

18 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:37:03pm

Is this the same Dan Savage that used to write that sex advice column called Savage Love? The speech was kind of inappropriate for high school kids but it's really tame for what I can remember from his other writings. I don't think he was an appropriate guest speaker for the event.

19 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:37:50pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Is this the same Dan Savage that used to write that sex advice column called Savage Love? The speech was kind of inappropriate for high school kids but it's really tame for what I can remember from his other writings. I don't think he was an appropriate guest speaker for the event.

HS kids are a tougher breed these days. ANd yes, this is the same Dan Savage.

20 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:38:21pm

re: #8 Kronocide

I didn't hear anything worth apologizing for.

He did say bullshit. Sorry.

Hearing the word 'bullshit' crushes their fragile egos and opens up their psychic doors wide enough for Satan to saunter in unopposed.

21 austin_blue  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:39:44pm

re: #14 Charles Johnson

It's all a diversion to keep attention away from the substance of what Savage said, that using Biblical literalism as an excuse for anti-gay bigotry is rank hypocrisy.

I don't know. They may just be really pissed at him for not agreeing that "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it."

22 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:42:12pm

re: #14 Charles Johnson

It's all a diversion to keep attention away from the substance of what Savage said, that using Biblical literalism as an excuse for anti-gay bigotry is rank hypocrisy.

No doubt. Yet on some occasions when I've tried to point out that there are agitators in the ME—sometimes even presidents—who gin things up to incite fury and distract from the other crap they're doing, it has been implied that I was somehow acting as an apologist for the fundie/Islamist/Jihadi set.

23 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:42:14pm

re: #15 Cheechako

The way the Country is progressing we should be more afraid of "Evangelical Christian Law" than Sharia Law.

Christophobic!

On some level it's not hypocrisy Charles. It seems today there is a sense of some level of slavery being OK: if not based on race, then based on social economic order.

That it seems that I associate this mindset with 'family values' evangelizing Christians, well, I guess I'm a Christophobic bully.

24 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:42:46pm

I'm surprised this isn't on Fox News yet. It's made for them.

25 Batman  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:43:02pm

Dear Journalists,

Please don't criticize my opinions.

kthxbai,
Conservatives

26 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:43:36pm

re: #20 b_sharp

Hearing the word 'bullshit' crushes their fragile egos and opens up their psychic doors wide enough for Satan to saunter in unopposed.

First it's swearwords then BAM! you're gay.

27 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:44:10pm

re: #11 CuriousLurker

I'd noticed that there was some new kerfuffle going on, but didn't bother to look into what it was about until an hour or so ago.

Y'know, I don't like it when people are rude about religion, but I'm having a really hard time mustering up any pity here. Day in and day out I hear about how horrible and disgustingly brutal some of the Sharia punishments are, and how Muslims must stop following such barbaric laws.

Then suddenly, when the shoe's on the other foot and someone is dissing the Old Testament, it's an OUTRAGE, an unfair attack on all of Christianity. Yeah, doesn't feel so great when it's your religion getting slammed, does it?

Welcome to my world. //

Now I'm going to bow out because I'm not exactly pleased with myself for the level of schadenfreude I'm feeling at present.

That does raise an interesting point. Let's put the shoe on the other foot: If he had made the same point using the Quran and Muslim students had walked out would this be any different? I think the students behaved well, quietly left and didn't interrupt. They exercised their right to leave. I think it was a little over the top to insult them although I understand Savage's sentiment.

28 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:45:28pm

re: #27 Killgore Trout

That does raise an interesting point. Let's put the shoe on the other foot: If he had made the same point using the Quran and Muslim students had walked out would this be any different? I think the students behaved well, quietly left and didn't interrupt. They exercised their right to leave. I think it was a little over the top to insult them although I understand Savage's sentiment.

Here we go again. Who is insulting these students that walked out?

I'll wait for your answer.

29 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:46:05pm

I'm sorry some Christians feel insulted.

A pittance compared to growing up gay in a Christian community.

30 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:47:11pm

It's not a bad speech, although it's far from original. It doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me, since I'm from a community in which the 'bullshit' he dismisses is, of course, the subject of both ongoing practice and ongoing legal ruling. (But Jews essentially do not exist in this debate, except as they pop up to serve as allies on both sides of the debate.)

It's strong language, and it's potentially offensive. It's an argument I make myself from time to time with Evangelical Christians, and it's one I would like to hear a cogent and reasoned response to. (Unfortunately, the ECs who have been willing to be cogent and reasoned with me tend to be on my side on this topic, so, no luck there.)

I tend to dislike this argument for a number of reasons, and much as I love Dan, I'd rather hear a more nuanced version of it, or one that directly addresses the conflict between secular rights and religious faith posed by the issue. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expose young journalists to. This is going to be one of the ongoing public debates of at least the next decade or two, and they'd better be able to think and talk critically about it.

31 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:48:08pm

re: #27 Killgore Trout

That does raise an interesting point. Let's put the shoe on the other foot: If he had made the same point using the Quran and Muslim students had walked out would this be any different? I think the students behaved well, quietly left and didn't interrupt. They exercised their right to leave. I think it was a little over the top to insult them although I understand Savage's sentiment.

Nope, it wouldn't be any different at all*, especially since this was a journalism class:

According to Fox, the event's organizers defended Savage and said student journalists had a duty to listen to what they did not want to hear.

“We appreciate the level of thoughtfulness and deliberation regarding Dan Savage’s keynote address,” the National Scholastic Press Association was quoted as saying in a statement.

“Some audience members who felt hurt by his words and tone decided to leave in the middle of his speech, and to this, we want to make our point very clear: While as a journalist it’s important to be able to listen to speech that offends you, these students and advisers had simply reached their tolerance level for what they were willing to hear.”

[Link: www.globalpost.com...]

*Except I'd be feeling the usual "here we go again" instead of schadenfreude.

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:50:17pm

re: #28 Gus

Here we go again. Who is insulting these students that walked out?

I'll wait for your answer.

I think that the 'pansy-assed' part is what's being referred to here.

33 Kragar  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:51:10pm

Their outrage is their defense from actually addressing the issues raised.

34 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:51:15pm

re: #31 CuriousLurker

According to Fox, the event's organizers defended Savage and said student journalists had a duty to listen to what they did not want to hear.

I'm glad the organizers are sticking up for him.

35 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:51:21pm

"Callista Gingrich lives," was low, and underhanded.

I laughed.

36 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:51:51pm

re: #32 SanFranciscoZionist

I think that the 'pansy-assed' part is what's being referred to here.

Shocking. Tomorrow they'll have a recruiting officer speak to a class so they can recruit some soldiers to join the army and learn how to "kill, kill, kill." I think I need to lie down on my fainting couch now.

37 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:52:27pm

re: #29 Kronocide

I'm sorry some Christians feel insulted.

A pittance compared to growing up gay in a Christian community.

+1

38 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:54:51pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Is this the same Dan Savage that used to write that sex advice column called Savage Love? The speech was kind of inappropriate for high school kids but it's really tame for what I can remember from his other writings. I don't think he was an appropriate guest speaker for the event.

we queers are quite uppity

don't let us near kids! We might rape them in half

39 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:54:56pm

I don't think it's offensive at all - journalists had better be able to handle frank speech about issues, and that's one of the things they should be learning in high school. Walking out is putting their religion above their journalism.

Maybe that's what they're trying to do. I agree that this does have the look of a pre-staged walkout.

40 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:55:51pm

wouldn't want someone pushing back against all those gay teen suicides


it wouldn't be appropriate

41 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:57:20pm

re: #40 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

wouldn't want someone pushing back against all those gay teen suicides

it wouldn't be appropriate

SHOCKING!

But it's OK for Rush Limbaugh to call an individual a slut and a whore for months. Just change the channel. //

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:57:21pm

re: #39 Charles Johnson

I don't think it's offensive at all - journalists had better be able to handle frank speech about issues, and that's one of the things they should be learning in high school. Walking out is putting their religion above their journalism.

Maybe that's what they're trying to do. I agree that this does have the look of a pre-staged walkout.

Oh, definitely that.

And, I would argue to the kids, not appropriate for a journalism conference. You have to stay in the room in order to report on what he's saying.

43 Batman  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:58:24pm

Religious people have made their religion the center for their vile hatred and bullying tactics, not their opponents. Of course, they only did it because they wanted it to be an impenetrable shield for their actions. Leave it to a journalist to attempt to penetrate the impenetrable.

44 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 3:58:29pm

re: #39 Charles Johnson

I took journalism multiple years in HS so I could do graphic design for the school paper

And of all the journalism students in my classes, I think four or five actually took it seriously (and two of us were artists) the rest just wanted an easy class with no real tests, where they could go interview their friends on the football team

45 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:00:49pm

Biblical literalism is a lever of bigotry, just like the "Curse of Ham"

the bible says black people are inferior! see?!?! Exact same shit

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:01:24pm

re: #44 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

I took journalism multiple years in HS so I could do graphic design for the school paper

And of all the journalism students in my classes, I think four or five actually took it seriously (and two of us were artists) the rest just wanted an easy class with no real tests, where they could go interview their friends on the football team

I was on the staff of the student paper of Raoul Wallenberg Traditional High School, The Passport, for a couple of years. We didn't even have a journalism class, and it was a pretty sad little paper, but entertaining. I once got press passes to a U.S./U.S.S.R. trade conference at the end of the eighties. The teacher in charge of the paper was confused.

47 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:01:33pm

re: #39 Charles Johnson

I don't think it's offensive at all - journalists had better be able to handle frank speech about issues, and that's one of the things they should be learning in high school. Walking out is putting their religion above their journalism.

Maybe that's what they're trying to do. I agree that this does have the look of a pre-staged walkout.

Some of the kids walking out were smirking. My guess is that it was pre-staged.

48 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:02:14pm

re: #47 Eclectic Infidel

Oh, the little douchebags.

49 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:02:48pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

I was on the staff of the student paper of Raoul Wallenberg Traditional High School, The Passport, for a couple of years. We didn't even have a journalism class, and it was a pretty sad little paper, but entertaining. I once got press passes to a U.S./U.S.S.R. trade conference at the end of the eighties. The teacher in charge of the paper was confused.

The only perk I ever got in journalism was to be left alone to play with the Mac with the 17" monitor :D

50 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:03:19pm

re: #47 Eclectic Infidel

Some of the kids walking out were smirking. My guess is that it was pre-staged.

of course!


it's Dan Savage! The christers know he's the hated queer enemy, gimme a break :D

51 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:03:46pm
52 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:04:02pm

re: #45 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

Biblical literalism is a lever of bigotry, just like the "Curse of Ham"

the bible says black people are inferior! see?!?! Exact same shit

Problem is, that's far from a literal interpretation of the text.

53 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:05:14pm

re: #50 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

of course!

it's Dan Savage! The christers know he's the hated queer enemy, gimme a break :D

Unpossible! These are sweet innocent teenagers whose sensibilities, faith and religion was insulted! There could be no ulterior motives here! These are God fearing American teenagers!

54 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:05:21pm

re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist

"Callista Gingrich lives," was low, and underhanded.

I laughed.

I don't think it was low or underhanded. It was, however, very pointed.

55 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:06:04pm

I thought that he gave them a pretty coherent and 'fairly' well thought out speech on the subject, really, why is eating shellfish or planting mixed crops or not letting your fields lay fallow every seventh year or wearing mixed fibers just fine for 99.99% of Christians but homosexuality still considered an abomination?

He most definitely should not have added the "Pansy-ass" gibe towards the people who had walked out though. Sure it was true, but he didn't have to say it and by doing so weakened his standing and strengthened theirs and their supporters.

56 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:06:05pm

re: #53 Gus

I know the kind of people that you are talking about. They are the reason I have culture war mindset in the first place.

57 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:09:12pm

Don't fool yourselves. This isn't about the specifics. Read the post again. This about the reaction from the right wing and more specifically Bretibart.com. You're missing the point completely if you think this is about a specific reference to the bible or him using the phrase "pansy assed." These people are already against bullying legislation and against Dan Savage from the onset of anything. This is an obvious excuse for them to go over the top. If you ignore this or even show any empathy towards the Ben Shapiro's of this world you're facilitating the perpetuation of hate.

58 RadicalModerate  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:09:18pm

This walkout looks like it was very much pre-organized.
Given that organized nature (ie at the first mention of Christianity), I'm wondering if there is a group that said students belong to that actually coordinated this and instructed them as to when to do their protest.

59 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:10:21pm

re: #58 RadicalModerate

This walkout looks like it was very much pre-organized.
Given that organized nature (ie at the first mention of Christianity), I'm wondering if there is a group that said students belong to that actually coordinated this and instructed them as to when to do their protest.

Oh, I'd say almost assuredly. They were waiting on him.

60 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:11:48pm

re: #56 ProGunLiberal

I know the kind of people that you are talking about. They are the reason I have culture war mindset in the first place.

Have you ever considered that a mindset shaped by simple mirror opposition to someone else's is neither original nor interesting?

61 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:12:15pm

re: #57 Gus

Don't fool yourselves. This isn't about the specifics. Read the post again. This about the reaction from the right wing and more specifically Bretibart.com. You're missing the point completely if you think this is about a specific reference to the bible or him using the phrase "pansy assed." These people are already against bullying legislation and against Dan Savage from the onset of anything. This is an obvious excuse for them to go over the top. If you ignore this or even show any empathy towards the Ben Shapiro's of this world you're facilitating the perpetuation of hate.

Well, I think the incident itself is more interesting that the fake outrage from wingnuts. If he insulted Muslims CAIR would be outraged. If he insulted liberals you would be outraged. Everybody's outraged, I don't find that very interesting.

62 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:12:28pm

1. If you're a journalist, do a little preliminary research. Way too often we see 'journalists' showing up to an event with no background knowledge. If you are attending a speech by Dan Savage, well-known gay rights activist, anti-bigotry crusader, and a guy who has frequently talked about his enormous amount of rage towards anti-gay bigotry backed up by religion, don't be all shocked and surprised when he does exactly what he's always done.

2. Lucky goddamn high school students. Savage is great writer, takes journalism seriously, and is a great speaker. Whoever said he's inappropriate for a high school has no clue what they're talking about. What exactly would be inappropriate about what he has to say?

3. Savage proved, yet again, what a cool dude he is by apologizing for the insult (and the nature of the insult) in calling the walk-out pansy-ass, but refusing to back down one iota from his position. Sure, it's not the most well-articulated exploration of the pick-n-mix attitude revanchist Christians have towards the Old Testament, but it's perfectly serviceable, and there's no reason he should apologize for it.

4. Christians look like idiots when they play at being martyrs in a country where hundreds of laws are on the books inspired by Christianity, where presidential candidates pretty much have to be Christian to get anywhere, where Christianity is the default assumed religion. It's embarrassing to see a vast majority pretend they're a persecuted minority.

5. Fudge is one of those things you really can have too much of.

63 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:14:23pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

Telling other people what they would or wouldn't feel and do is one of your biggest douchey habits. You really ought to try to break yourself of it.

64 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:14:24pm

Since it's topical, this is hands down the best It's Gets Better video ever made, by the wickedly talented Rebecca Drysdale:

65 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:14:29pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

Well, I think the incident itself is more interesting that the fake outrage from wingnuts. If he insulted Muslims CAIR would be outraged. If he insulted liberals you would be outraged. Everybody's outraged, I don't find that very interesting.

There you go again with the outrage about the outrage.

66 Mattand  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:14:47pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Is this the same Dan Savage that used to write that sex advice column called Savage Love? The speech was kind of inappropriate for high school kids but it's really tame for what I can remember from his other writings. I don't think he was an appropriate guest speaker for the event.

Right. Because he's a gay man who has opinions that upset conservatives, while using language that is probably nothing compared to what HS kids use during the course of the day.

67 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:14:49pm

re: #60 goddamnedfrank

Yes. Sorry about that.

re: #62 Obdicut

What in the world is #5 about? I think I know, but that seems a bit out of left field.

68 blueraven  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:15:32pm

re: #59 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, I'd say almost assuredly. They were waiting on him.

It was Dan Savage. Really, what did they expect? Did these offended "journalism" students actually take the time to, you know...google him?

69 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:15:45pm

re: #67 ProGunLiberal

Often, humor is found in juxtaposing an unexpected element in an otherwise serious litany.

70 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:16:11pm

re: #64 goddamnedfrank

Speaking of which, I saw a retweet from Gus that some conservative jackass attacked the "It Get Better" project.

How evil a person do you have to be in order to do that?

71 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:16:15pm

anyone who writes a sex column SHOULD STAY AWAY FROM CHILDREN our lily white children

72 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:16:34pm

re: #69 Obdicut

Does Fudge mean what I think it means in this context?

73 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:16:37pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

Well, I think the incident itself is more interesting that the fake outrage from wingnuts. If he insulted Muslims CAIR would be outraged. If he insulted liberals you would be outraged. Everybody's outraged, I don't find that very interesting.

The only aspect of the outrage that I do find interesting is that the organizers are supporting Savage. Good for them, I like to see that. They knew who he was when they hired him and they aren't going to throw him under the bus. However, those journalism students are probably not going to get the same support when they get out into the real world. Once the special interest groups start spamming their employers over some outrageous outrage there's a good chance they're going to be looking for a new job.

74 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:17:07pm

re: #71 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

High school students are famously uninterested in sex and if we just shield them from anyone knowledgeable about the subject everything will work out fine.

75 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:17:21pm

re: #62 Obdicut

Re: #5:

There is a fudge store across the street from my bike shop. A store where they make a dozen flavors of fudge, right there in the store. And sell it to the public.

You are so right.

76 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:17:49pm

re: #72 ProGunLiberal

Does Fudge mean what I think it means in this context?

Fudge means fudge, a chocolate confection. Well, usually chocolate.

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:18:10pm

re: #68 blueraven

It was Dan Savage. Really, what did they expect? Did these offended "journalism" students actually take the time to, you know...google him?

They expected exactly what happened.

They knew who he was, probably not because they researched him alone, but because people from their church, or other community thingamabob, researched him and briefed them.

They were prepped to wait until the issue of Christianity or biblical interpretation came up, and then walk.

They did.

Mission accomplished.

No one was suprised.

78 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:19:14pm

re: #68 blueraven

It was Dan Savage. Really, what did they expect? Did these offended "journalism" students actually take the time to, you know...google him?

I read once that journalism students eventually become journalists. Some of them even become war journalists where many have to experience crimes against humanity, death, genocide and slaughter first hand. Some of them become maimed or killed in the process. I'm sure this SHOCKING experience will lead them to re-think a career in journalism.

//

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:19:40pm

re: #71 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

anyone who writes a sex column SHOULD STAY AWAY FROM CHILDREN our lily white children

Much of what I know about sex today I owe to Dan Savage. I started reading him senior year of high school, back when he was still being addressed by his readers as "Hey Faggot".

80 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:19:48pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

Crowbar that agenda in there, Killgore! Ignore the fact that hundreds of newspapers, talk shows, magazines write articles that offend people all the time, and the people don't get fired. Pretend that the outrage directed at Rush for his mammothly stupid slut-shaming campaign against Fluke for daring to talk sense about contraception was somehow a bad thing. Whatever you do, keep going, man, because otherwise we might lose the cultural richness of Michelle Malkin or something.

81 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:20:01pm

re: #76 Obdicut

Fudge means fudge, a chocolate confection. Well, usually chocolate.

Jalapeño is the weirdest, but not bad. None of them are bad. Except in excess.

82 Mattand  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:20:54pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

The only aspect of the outrage that I do find interesting is that the organizers are supporting Savage. Good for them, I like to see that. They knew who he was when they hired him and they aren't going to throw him under the bus. However, those journalism students are probably not going to get the same when they get out into the real world. Once the special interest groups start spamming their employers over some outrageous outrage there's a good chance they're going to be looking for a new job.

Or they could work for enterprises that do support their opinions. It's not like Dan Savage has this vast shadowy network of LIbruls and Teh Gayz to run interference for him.

83 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:21:02pm

re: #74 Obdicut

High school students are famously uninterested in sex and if we just shield them from anyone knowledgeable about the subject everything will work out fine.

I read once that most high school students have Facebook pages and many even go on dates which lead to sexual intercourse. Some even listen to rap songs with sexual explicit and violent lyrics. Can you believe that?

//

84 blueraven  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:21:51pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

The only aspect of the outrage that I do find interesting is that the organizers are supporting Savage. Good for them, I like to see that. They knew who he was when they hired him and they aren't going to throw him under the bus. However, those journalism students are probably not going to get the same when they get out into the real world. Once the special interest groups start spamming their employers over some outrageous outrage there's a good chance they're going to be looking for a new job.

Which special interest groups? Are you suggesting people will be stalking these kids?

85 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:22:49pm

re: #83 Gus

No, I can't. Next thing you'll be telling me that Dan Savage, who is offensive on a regular basis to vast swathes of people, is a popular, constantly employed journalist and that people who cause controversy don't inevitably get 'spammed' out of a job.

86 allegro  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:24:06pm

re: #84 blueraven

Which special interest groups? Are you suggesting people will be stalking these kids?

I think he's whining about Rush again and all the meanies who said right out loud that he's a jerk.

87 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:24:21pm

Hmm. Sarcasm detector is overloading. Must reach safety valve before it is too late.

88 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:24:49pm

Socrates the Druid casts Forrest for the Trees, can't see it.

89 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:25:20pm

re: #88 goddamnedfrank

Socrates the Druid casts Forrest for the Trees, can't see it.

Saw Forrest, Saw!

90 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:26:59pm

re: #85 Obdicut

No, I can't. Next thing you'll be telling me that Dan Savage, who is offensive on a regular basis to vast swathes of people, is a popular, constantly employed journalist and that people who cause controversy don't inevitably get 'spammed' out of a job.

So who gets spammed out of a job here? The Christian organizers or the teachers that FOLLOWED THROUGH ACCORDING TO THE GAY AGENDA!!!!????

91 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:28:01pm

For anyone who hasn't read Dan Savage's columns, I highly advise it. They're awesome, great advice, solid ethics, and very well-written.


[Link: www.thestranger.com...]

Like check this advice to a 16 year old gay boy worrying about the paucity of gay guys around for him to date:

Sorry, WASTED, but you're gonna get the same advice I give to hard and hard-up 16-year-old straight boys: Worry less about getting your 16-year-old self laid and more about getting your 20-year-old self laid. Get out of the house and do shit, get books and read shit, volunteer for a political organization and change shit. You'll have more boys to choose from in a few years and you'll be a more interesting, more informed, more attractive guy thanks to all that doing, reading, and volunteering.

92 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:29:23pm

re: #84 blueraven

Which special interest groups? Are you suggesting people will be stalking these kids?

No, I read that KT was referring to whenever these kids grow up and get out in the workplace, having to deal with outrageous outrages like Savage is.

93 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:29:44pm

re: #90 Gus

So who gets spammed out of a job here? The Christian organizers or the teachers that FOLLOWED THROUGH ACCORDING TO THE GAY AGENDA!!!???

In the future, everyone will lose their jobs when special interests spam their employers because of bad Facebook jokes and they will have to go onto reality shows to survive.

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:31:28pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

The only aspect of the outrage that I do find interesting is that the organizers are supporting Savage. Good for them, I like to see that. They knew who he was when they hired him and they aren't going to throw him under the bus. However, those journalism students are probably not going to get the same when they get out into the real world. Once the special interest groups start spamming their employers over some outrageous outrage there's a good chance they're going to be looking for a new job.

First, these are high school journalists. Most of them will probably never be working commercial journalists.

Second, the idea that people will identify them and refuse to hire them over this seems farfetched to me, although I can hypothetically see asking the question of one of them: "If I send you to report on something, and the speaker says something you find offensive, are you gonna walk out, or bring me back the story?"

My guess: most of them won't become journalists, and will major in something else. Some of the remaining ones will become good journalists, having grown up a little (by which, BTW, I do not mean that they will abandon Christianity). A few will probably be offered jobs immediately at quasi-news organizations whose political and social views coincide with theirs, there they will be feted as brave young thinkers, and encouraged to go on doing this kind of thing as adults.

Dan Savage will go on to write more books, and his son will write a book shortly after he finishes college which I will buy in hard-cover because, hey, it's D.J.

Thems my predictions.

95 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:31:35pm

re: #93 Obdicut

In the future, everyone will lose their jobs when special interests spam their employers because of bad Facebook jokes and they will and have to go onto reality shows to survive.

And find out that there is no $80K/year job telling knock-knock jokes to Kim Kardashian. Obama has that gig.

96 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:31:44pm

You do realize that your talking about people who consider the marriage of two consenting men who are well over thirty years old and who have been living together for years to be the absolute height of perversion. But quite a lot of them would also consider sending a 16 year old girl away into arranged marriage to a 56 year old man that she has never even met to be "Gods will."

Cognitive dissonance is something that you really have to learn to cultivate if you want to remain a Christian in the face of all the choices presented to you in this world.

97 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:32:15pm

re: #79 SanFranciscoZionist

Much of what I know about sex today I owe to Dan Savage. I started reading him senior year of high school, back when he was still being addressed by his readers as "Hey Faggot".

I loved his column! I totally remember the Hey Faggot days ^_^ It was always great when he mentioned the fandom and I got to go OH GEEZ

98 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:33:41pm

re: #91 Obdicut

I wish someone had given that sort of advice in High School. I wouldn't have focused on my own bad feelings, and would not be having to undo a number of issues now.

I should mention that, until late Friday, I didn't have the money for meds, and haven't had them in over a week, if that is worth anything.

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:34:02pm

re: #96 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

You do realize that your talking about people who consider the marriage of two consenting men who are well over thirty years old and who have been living together for years to be the absolute height of perversion. But quite a lot of them would also consider sending a 16 year old girl away into arranged marriage to a 56 year old man that she has never even met to be "Gods will."

This is common among American Christians?

100 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:34:04pm

Sarah Palin! Journalism major!

101 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:34:30pm

re: #96 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

You do realize that your talking about people who consider the marriage of two consenting men who are well over thirty years old and who have been living together for years to be the absolute height of perversion. But quite a lot of them would also consider sending a 16 year old girl away into arranged marriage to a 56 year old man that she has never even met to be "Gods will."

Cognitive dissonance is something that you really have to learn to cultivate if you want to remain a Christian in the face of all the choices presented to you in this world.

control machines specialize in cognitive dissonance

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:34:34pm

re: #98 ProGunLiberal

I wish someone had given that sort of advice in High School. I wouldn't have focused on my own bad feelings, and would not be having to undo a number of issues now.

I should mention that, until late Friday, I didn't have the money for meds, and haven't had them in over a week, if that is worth anything.

BEEN THERE.

You'll even out now.

103 blueraven  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:37:27pm

re: #86 allegro

I think he's whining about Rush again and all the meanies who said right out loud that he's a jerk.

I was just wondering...because isn't it special interest groups that are going after Dan Savage right now?
I haven't heard any criticism from KT of these real interest groups, who are definitely out to harm the career of Dan Savage here and now, just concern about some future mythical group who will stalk and ruin the careers of these possible future journalist.
Yes, that is the interesting part for me.

104 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:37:45pm

Let's see. The other part. Ben Shapiro wants to attach this to the Obama White House. Last I saw he was trying to rally support to have corporate sponsorship of "It Gets Better":

Yeah. Outrage. I'm sure this is all about specifics of this HS event. Uh huh. BTW, "It Gets Better" was founded by Dan Savage and his husband.

105 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:38:45pm

re: #97 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

I loved his column! I totally remember the Hey Faggot days ^_^ It was always great when he mentioned the fandom and I got to go OH GEEZ

I remember reading his "Why I'm not using "Hey Faggot" anymore column, and feeling it was another sign of progress in gay rights that he didn't need to be punchy in that particular way anymore.

106 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:39:12pm

But I'm sure a certain someone will say it's "our fault" because if we didn't get so outraged about say, Rush Limbaugh, then they likely wouldn't have been outraged by say, Dan Savage. So if we just stop being outraged about the next person the students of Andrew Breitbart will follow suit.

Yep.

107 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:39:24pm

re: #104 Gus

What's the vile part of the behavior again? I must have missed it.

108 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:39:55pm

Sort of like how they gave up on ACORN.

And Planned Parenthood.

You have to surrender first! Stop being outraged and they'll surely stop being outraged!!!

109 prairiefire  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:40:27pm

re: #107 Obdicut

What's the vile part of the behavior again? I must have missed it.

Some of the stuff folks write in to ask him about! Leaves me feeling old and bewildered.

110 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:41:27pm

Well, I just stumbled on to a little piece of concentrated WTF in regards to Doctor Who. The following line comes from Second Doctor's episode, "Wheel in Time."

"We're all going to be killed shortly unless you switch over to sexual air supply."

Uh-huh. My reaction.

111 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:41:46pm

re: #96 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

You do realize that your talking about people who consider the marriage of two consenting men who are well over thirty years old and who have been living together for years to be the absolute height of perversion. But quite a lot of them would also consider sending a 16 year old girl away into arranged marriage to a 56 year old man that she has never even met to be "Gods will."

Cognitive dissonance is something that you really have to learn to cultivate if you want to remain a Christian in the face of all the choices presented to you in this world.

Quite a lot of WHAT? FLDS cultists? I really do not think that this is the norm among American evangelicals.

112 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:41:59pm

re: #107 Obdicut

What's the vile part of the behavior again? I must have missed it.

Oh. You know the righties.

113 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:42:09pm

re: #104 Gus

Let's see. The other part. Ben Shapiro wants to attach this to the Obama White House. Last I saw he was trying to rally support to have corporate sponsorship of "It Gets Better":

[Embedded content] Yeah. Outrage. I'm sure this is all about specifics of this HS event. Uh huh. BTW, "It Gets Better" was founded by Dan Savage and his husband.

no so bright, these bigots

114 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:42:41pm

re: #105 Obdicut

I remember reading his "Why I'm not using "Hey Faggot" anymore column, and feeling it was another sign of progress in gay rights that he didn't need to be punchy in that particular way anymore.

very true

115 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:43:03pm

re: #108 Gus

Sort of like how they gave up on ACORN.

And Planned Parenthood.

You have to surrender first! Stop being outraged and they'll surely stop being outraged!!!

Ignore them! They're just trying to provoke a reaction!

You may administer my downdings of honor now.

116 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:45:39pm

Found it! It was actually in a rejoinder to a crazy Christian writing in to tell him he was going to have to fuck Satan in hell.

[Link: www.thestranger.com...]


This is the guy writing in:

Hey, Faggot: First, I dislike having to address you as "Faggot," since that term is dehumanizing. Second, if you consider homosexuality moral, then you can expect to perform sex acts with Satan himself in Hades. Although I am Christian and straight, I don't "gay bash" and never will. If a gay person were to ask me for a hug on the street, I wouldn't pull back in disgust, unlike some false Christians who go out of their way to make gay human beings feel like crap.

Third, he didn't die just for me and my sins, Dan.

Todd

And Dan's response:

Hey, T:

What an interesting fantasy life you have, Todd. First, you fantasize about me and Satan getting it on in Hades. (Which amounts to you going out of your way to make me, a gay human being, "feel like crap," don't you think? Or is sex with Satan supposed to brighten my day?) Second, you segue from Satan & Dan doin' it in Hades to gay men trying to hug you on the street. I'm not a trained psychologist, but you seem to have some unresolved feelings about homosexuality. Be careful, Todd of God, or you may wind up in Hades having three-ways with me and Satan.

Third, no one has to address me as "Hey, Faggot" anymore: I'm retiring the salutation. When I started writing this column in 1991, there was a debate raging in hellish homosexual circles about words like faggot. The idea was that if we used these words ourselves--Queer Nation, Dyke March, "Hey, Faggot"--straights couldn't use them as hate words anymore. I chose "Hey, Faggot" as my salutation in joking reference to this lively debate about reclaiming hate words.

Lo many columns later, it feels strange to begin every column with a joke about a debate that ended years ago. So, I'm retiring "Hey, Faggot." Unless someone out there comes up with a better salutation--a salutation for the next millennium--you don't have to address me as anything at all.

117 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:45:42pm

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

This is common among American Christians?

No, well not outside of the F.L.D.S., and the Unification Church, and a few even smaller sects of Christianity. The point still being that they don't seem to voice any concerns over the practices of their own breakaway sects on anything like the scale that they complain about gays being married even though they are doing it outside of the church.

/ lame excuse for getting carried away, but it is the best I can do on short notice. :p

118 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:45:56pm

re: #115 wrenchwench

Ignore them! They're just trying to provoke a reaction!

You may administer my downdings of honor now.

A VALIANT BLOG POST OF HONOR, WE ARE ALL VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE CONCERN

119 RadicalModerate  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:46:55pm

Gotta love the comments that are attached to the YouTube video of Savage's speech. The white nationalists have seized upon the comments and are putting a spin equating hiss sexuality with being Jewish.

120 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:46:55pm

re: #110 ProGunLiberal

Anybody have any idea what he was trying to say? There is simply no context in which that line would make any sense. None.

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:48:56pm

re: #119 RadicalModerate

Gotta love the comments that are attached to the YouTube video of Savage's speech. The white nationalists have seized upon the comments and are putting a spin equating hiss sexuality with being Jewish.

Dan's?

Dan's not Jewish.

Or is this just a list of stuff that's just as bad as other stuff?

122 blueraven  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:50:37pm

re: #120 ProGunLiberal

Anybody have any idea what he was trying to say. There is simply no context in which that line would make any sense. None.

Do you have a link to said quote? An article or what? Kind of hard to parse with no context.

123 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:50:37pm

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

Second, the idea that people will identify them and refuse to hire them over this seems farfetched to me, although I can hypothetically see asking the question of one of them: "If I send you to report on something, and the speaker says something you find offensive, are you gonna walk out, or bring me back the story?"

Ah, I see the confusion from my wording now. I'm not implying that this indecent will follow the students into their professional careers. But professional journalists can lose their job over a slip of the tongue, a poorly worded sentence, any slight perception of insensitivity or simply reporting something that somebody finds offensive. Even a drunken tweet from home will people fired.

124 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:52:04pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

Dan's?

Dan's not Jewish.

Or is this just a list of stuff that's just as bad as other stuff?

the youtube comments on that Savage video are full walnuts

125 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:52:20pm

I have to admit that I've already started on the new grandkid's indoctrination. As I pulled him out of the car I whispered to him 'Religion isn't real because it was designed by Satan'.

126 blueraven  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:53:03pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Ah, I see the confusion from my wording now. I'm not implying that this indecent will follow the students into their professional careers. But professional journalists can lose their job over a slip of the tongue, a poorly worded sentence, any slight perception of insensitivity or simply reporting something that somebody finds offensive. Even a drunken tweet from home will people fired.

You mean they could be subjected to the same treatment Savage is receiving?

127 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:53:24pm

re: #125 b_sharp

I have to admit that I've already started on the new grandkid's indoctrination. As I pulled him out of the car I whispered to him 'Religion isn't real because it was designed by Satan'.

Image: lolwut.jpg

///

128 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:53:24pm

re: #125 b_sharp

I have to admit that I've already started on the new grandkid's indoctrination. As I pulled him out of the car I whispered to him 'Religion isn't real because it was designed by Satan'.

As it is written in the Book of Atheism. So it will be done.

//

129 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:54:01pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

But professional journalists can lose their job over a slip of the tongue, a poorly worded sentence, any slight perception of insensitivity or simply reporting something that somebody finds offensive. Even a drunken tweet from home will people fired.

It's pretty scary out there. That must be why journalists like Dan Savage go out of their way not to offend anyone, and why Erik Erikson had such trouble finding work after calling a Supreme Court Justice a goat-fucker.

It's not like a quick glance at reality disproves your point or anything, don't worry.

130 allegro  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:54:03pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Ah, I see the confusion from my wording now. I'm not implying that this indecent will follow the students into their professional careers. But professional journalists can lose their job over a slip of the tongue, a poorly worded sentence, any slight perception of insensitivity or simply reporting something that somebody finds offensive. Even a drunken tweet from home will people fired.

Example of that happening? To whom? When?

131 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:54:41pm

re: #126 blueraven

You mean they could be subjected the the same treatment Savage is receiving?

Which means! If we stop talking about Ben Shapiro then they'll stop talking about Dan Savage.

See! Simple.

132 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:55:14pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson

I'm surprised this isn't on Fox News yet. It's made for them.

It came out on a Saturday. The "Outrageous Outrage!!1" team doesn't work weekends.

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:55:33pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Ah, I see the confusion from my wording now. I'm not implying that this indecent will follow the students into their professional careers. But professional journalists can lose their job over a slip of the tongue, a poorly worded sentence, any slight perception of insensitivity or simply reporting something that somebody finds offensive. Even a drunken tweet from home will people fired.

What are we talking about? Or rather, who are we talking about? And what is the answer? Job protection for drunk Tweeters?

134 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:55:42pm

re: #125 b_sharp

I have to admit that I've already started on the new grandkid's indoctrination. As I pulled him out of the car I whispered to him 'Religion isn't real because it was designed by Satan'.

There is a war on earth for your soul


waged between Good George Burns and Evil George Burns

135 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:56:54pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

Ah, I see the confusion from my wording now. I'm not implying that this indecent will follow the students into their professional careers. But professional journalists can lose their job over a slip of the tongue, a poorly worded sentence, any slight perception of insensitivity or simply reporting something that somebody finds offensive. Even a drunken tweet from home will people fired.

Yes, it's tragic really, Helen Thomas's career is pining for the fjords.

136 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:57:22pm

re: #122 blueraven

I found a small amount of context to the quote. Apparently, they were in a room the Cyberman were trying to funnel poisoned air into. So they switched air supplies.

However, basic problem remains. Why is there are dedicated kinky air supply. And is sex air different from other air? (I never thought I would ever have to say that combination of words.)

137 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:57:22pm

Uh oh, incoming

138 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:58:02pm

re: #126 blueraven

You mean they could be subjected the the same treatment Savage is receiving?

Yes. Luckily the organizers are sticking with him but that's very rare these days. Especially in radio. The shock jock fad of the late 90's kind of died out on its own but radio stations starting coming up with ever restrictive rules about what could be said to avoid angering the special interest groups. Far more oppressive than the FCC regulations. Eventually it just became close to impossible to do a comedy entertainment show on the radio because the stations were too worried about offending someone.

139 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:58:23pm

re: #134 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

Don't laugh at that so much, WUB. It may be an exaggeration, but that God wants your soul to be with Him after you die, and Satan does as well. But God wishes this out of love and benevolence, while Satan acts out of hate and butthurt.

140 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:58:34pm

re: #137 Learned Mother of Zion

That guy is a troll, who normally writes about sports.

141 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 4:58:56pm

re: #137 Learned Mother of Zion

Uh oh, incoming

[Embedded content]

Isn't that a shit stupid thing to say.

142 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:00:17pm

re: #141 b_sharp

Isn't that a shit stupid thing to say.

Yes.

Somehow I doubt that Team Loesch is going to let him say it was just a joke.

143 allegro  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:00:21pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

Eventually it just became close to impossible to do a comedy entertainment show on the radio because the stations were too worried about offending someone.

Yet, Rush is still there. Who's worried?

144 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:00:23pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

Yes. Luckily the organizers are sticking with him but that's very rare these days.

And by 'rare', you mean 'extremely common'. I see.

And yeah, it was probably horrible for Opie and Antony to move from radio to a different kind of radio. It's pretty much a national tragedy.

145 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:00:47pm

re: #117 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

No, well not outside of the F.L.D.S., and the Unification Church, and a few even smaller sects of Christianity. The point still being that they don't seem to voice any concerns over the practices of their own breakaway sects on anything like the scale that they complain about gays being married even though they are doing it outside of the church.

/ lame excuse for getting carried away, but it is the best I can do on short notice. :p

FLDS and Moonies are not part of the Christian establishment, and are considered fringe whackjobs, just like Westboro.

146 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:01:47pm

re: #140 Obdicut

That guy is a troll, who normally writes about sports.

I just looked at a few of his tweets, he seems like a typical douche.

147 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:01:48pm

re: #119 RadicalModerate

Gotta love the comments that are attached to the YouTube video of Savage's speech. The white nationalists have seized upon the comments and are putting a spin equating hiss sexuality with being Jewish.

Hate lies down with hate. Imbeciles on a mission have no idea where their hate will take them. That's why we fight back.

Eh KT?

148 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:02:05pm

re: #143 allegro

Yet, Rush is still there. Who's worried?

Talk radio has been pretty much reduced to politics and sports.

149 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:02:12pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

Don't laugh at that so much, WUB. It may be an exaggeration, but that God wants your soul to be with Him after you die, and Satan does as well. But God wishes this out of love and benevolence, while Satan acts out of hate and butthurt.

If God is motivated by anything resembling benevolence then why is He the one with all the bullshit exclusionary criteria regarding consensual love between full grown adults?

150 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:02:24pm

re: #137 Learned Mother of Zion

Uh oh, incoming

[Embedded content]

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:02:48pm

re: #148 Killgore Trout

Talk radio has been pretty much reduced to politics and sports.

My heart is bleeding purple Kool-Aid.

152 RadicalModerate  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:05:27pm

re: #110 ProGunLiberal

Well, I just stumbled on to a little piece of concentrated WTF in regards to Doctor Who. The following line comes from Second Doctor's episode, "Wheel in Time."

Uh-huh. My reaction.

I'm assuming you mean "Wheel in Space" (yeah, I'm an old-school DW fan). Since this was Wendy Padbury's first appearance as Zoe, I'd say that any comment about a sexual air supply might well be justified.

And a bit of trivia: Wendy is a recently-retired theatrical talent agent, and she is credited in discovering Matt Smith.

153 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:05:48pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

Don't laugh at that so much, WUB. It may be an exaggeration, but that God wants your soul to be with Him after you die, and Satan does as well. But God wishes this out of love and benevolence, while Satan acts out of hate and butthurt.

I completely reject the notion of a cosmic deity that acts in any way like a human, has human thought processes, or has a human as his representative.

God could just as easily be a giant ant. There's far more ants than people!

154 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:06:25pm

HAIL ANTS

155 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:06:29pm

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

My heart is bleeding purple Kool-Aid.

A reasonable person might suspect the reason that the shock jocks moved to satellite radio is because it's not censored by the FCC.

156 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:06:36pm

O.T.

A page needs more comments before it will be allowed to die a natural death by exiting the featured page list, it has mysteriously moved back to the top of the list twice now with 0 comments. Not that I'm mentioning any names, but since it concerns Pamela Geller I think someone was hoping that we would pay more attention to it and perhaps add an appropriately snarky comment.

I have done my part, the rest is up to you guys, unless of course you reply to my post in a way that invites me to reply back. ;)

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

157 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:06:39pm

re: #153 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

You can reject that idea, but I maintain you are in error in doing so.

158 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:07:15pm

re: #130 allegro

Example of that happening? To whom? When?

Helen Thomas

159 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:07:49pm

re: #157 Dark_Falcon

You can reject that idea, but I maintain you are in error in doing so.

No human has any more insight into the hereafter than any other human


Anyone who claims they do is selling something

160 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:09:40pm

re: #153 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

I completely reject the notion of a cosmic deity that acts in any way like a human, has human thought processes, or has a human as his representative.

God could just as easily be a giant ant. There's far more ants than people!

Bacterium.

161 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:09:58pm

re: #160 b_sharp

Bacterium.

GROSS

162 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:10:12pm

re: #150 Dark_Falcon

[Embedded content]

163 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:10:34pm

re: #159 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

No human has any more insight into the hereafter than any other human

Anyone who claims they do is selling something

Smelling something.

164 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:11:01pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

Yes. Luckily the organizers are sticking with him but that's very rare these days. Especially in radio. The shock jock fad of the late 90's kind of died out on its own but radio stations starting coming up with ever restrictive rules about what could be said to avoid angering the special interest groups. Far more oppressive than the FCC regulations. Eventually it just became close to impossible to do a comedy entertainment show on the radio because the stations were too worried about offending someone.

This country always had strange radio and television censorship rules. You honestly think things have gotten worse? As far as offending people? That depends on how you define offensive. People, comedians, entertainers used to face the long arm of the law even as close as the 50s and 60s for violating local ordinances or even national laws. Musicians were arrested; taken off the stage and booked at the local police station.

165 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:12:12pm

re: #152 RadicalModerate

Yep. I fused two things together. I'm assuming you like Zoe then. I prefer Pond. Sad she will be leaving, but she had a good run on the show.

166 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:12:18pm

re: #164 Gus

This country always had strange radio and television censorship rules. You honestly think things have gotten worse? As far as offending people? That depends on how you define offensive. People, comedians, entertainers used to face the long arm of the law even as close as the 50s and 60s for violating local ordinances or even national laws. Musicians were arrested; taken off the stage and booked at the local police station.

mmmm red scare

167 Digital Display  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:12:28pm

re: #153 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

I completely reject the notion of a cosmic deity that acts in any way like a human, has human thought processes, or has a human as his representative.

God could just as easily be a giant ant. There's far more ants than people!

Yes..We cannot understand God nor His Ways..
The Bible says we are created in His image..Not a giant ant
Which explains why I'm so dang handsome..
//

168 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:12:35pm
169 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:13:22pm

re: #164 Gus

Things have gotten so much looser. I think South Park-- which I don't personally like-- deserves a lot of the credit, as does the Simpsons and Futurama. South Park is very in-your-face with its offensiveness, but the Simpsons and Futurama both got away with a hell of a lot, on network TV. Hell, Futurama managed to slip a bong past the censors, and the Simpsons episode about marijuana portrayed it as much healthier and better than alcohol.

What has become less acceptable is mindless racism and sexism, which apparently some people miss like the dickens.

170 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:13:32pm

what if the ants have their own bible, and does it supercede our bible if the ants were here first

I'm just sayin

171 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:13:41pm

re: #168 Gus

Image: Lenny_Bruce_Mugshot_4-27-63.jpg

Not sure if that was the booking shot for this:

On October 4, 1961, Bruce was arrested for obscenity at the Jazz Workshop in San Francisco; he had used the word cocksucker and riffed that "to is a preposition, come is a verb", that the sexual context of come is so common that it bears no weight, and that if someone hearing it becomes upset, he "probably can't come". Although the jury acquitted him, other law enforcement agencies began monitoring his appearances, resulting in frequent arrests under charges of obscenity.

172 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:14:04pm

re: #170 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

The beetles totally outnumber the ants and some of them can produce napalm with their asses.

173 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:14:07pm

re: #161 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

GROSS

Who has provably saved more lives, God, or penicillin?

///food for thought...

174 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:14:08pm

re: #167 HoosierHoops

Yes..We cannot understand God nor His Ways..
The Bible says we are created in His image..Not a giant ant
Which explains why I'm so dang handsome..
//

His physical image or his spiritual image?

Does he have a penis and an anus?

175 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:14:22pm

re: #172 Obdicut

The beetles totally outnumber the ants and some of them can produce napalm with their asses.

we're so screwed!

176 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:14:48pm

re: #173 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

Who has provably saved more lives, God, or penicillin?

///food for thought...

was that Carlin? :D

177 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:14:57pm

...

A three-judge panel presided over his widely publicized six-month trial, prosecuted by Asst. Manhattan D.A. Richard Kuh, with Bruce and club owner Howard Solomon both found guilty of obscenity on November 4, 1964. The conviction was announced despite positive testimony and petitions of support from – among other artists, writers and educators – Woody Allen, Bob Dylan, Jules Feiffer, Allen Ginsberg, Norman Mailer, William Styron, and James Baldwin, and Manhattan journalist and television personality Dorothy Kilgallen and sociologist Herbert Gans.[21] Bruce was sentenced, on December 21, 1964, to four months in a workhouse; he was set free on bail during the appeals process and died before the appeal was decided. Solomon later saw his conviction overturned; Bruce, who died before the decision, never had his conviction stricken.[22] Bruce later received a full posthumous gubernatorial pardon.

178 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:15:15pm

re: #174 b_sharp

His physical image or his spiritual image?

Does he have a penis and an anus?

Yes, and a vagina.

179 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:16:20pm

re: #96 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

The true offense of Dan Savage was that he attacked the Bible with the term "bullshit".

That is the greater offense.

180 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:18:15pm

re: #172 Obdicut

The beetles totally outnumber the ants and some of them can produce napalm with their asses.

Bombardier beetle

181 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:19:44pm

re: #178 Learned Mother of Zion

Yes, and a vagina.

That must be handy.

182 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:19:54pm

re: #179 freetoken

The true offense of Dan Savage was that he attacked the Bible with the term "bullshit".

That is the greater offense.

That was an action of little sense. Even if he was sure he was right, he should not have said that. Going after the Bible like that causes many people to simply label you as a "Hater of Christianity", and after you are so labeled they won't listen to you. Honestly, this was a time to mince words and tiptoe through the tulips.

183 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:20:58pm

re: #170 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

what if the ants have their own bible, and does it supercede our bible if the ants were here first

I'm just sayin

It's King James version all the way down!
//

184 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:21:18pm

re: #179 freetoken

The true offense of Dan Savage was that he attacked the Bible with the term "bullshit".

That is the greater offense.

He didn't "attack the Bible." He was rather specific: “We ignore bullshit in the Bible about all sorts of things.”

185 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:22:46pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

I disagree. It's been way too long for someone to tell the truth.

The arbitrary enforcement of bronze age prurient rituals is one of the great hypocrisies in modern American culture. Dan Savage is right on to call Americans on this hypocrisy, and in the blindness of the Social Conservative movement to their own bigotry.

186 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:23:20pm

re: #176 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

was that Carlin? :D

Nope just me, of course I might have previously heard it from another source like Carlin, I have watched almost every appearance he ever made on video, anyway , if I'm stealing it from someone I'm not consciously doing so.

Still it seems like a pretty straightforward argument though, I'm sure "someone" has made it before, probably quite a few someones, I'm just not remembering where I heard or saw it. :(

187 allegro  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:23:44pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

That was an action of little sense. Even if he was sure he was right, he should not have said that. Going after the Bible like that causes many people to simply label you as a "Hater of Christianity", and after you are so labeled they won't listen to you. Honestly, this was a time to mince words and tiptoe through the tulips.

Oh, bullshit. It's the tiptoeing and mincing about with woo of all stripes that has resulted in a shockingly ignorant population of people who believe the sun revolves around the earth and Jesus rode dinosaurs a couple of thousand years ago.

Bullshit is an entirely descriptive term especially when these backward beliefs are being used to hate and bully.

188 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:24:25pm

I need some mom help.

I was just talking to my daughter and the little guy is on formula because my daughter isn't producing any milk, but his cheeks turn red with a rash and he gags after drinking when drinking from the bottle.

Any suggestions?

189 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:25:20pm

re: #188 b_sharp

I need some mom help.

I was just talking to my daughter and the little guy is on formula because my daughter isn't producing any milk, but his cheeks turn red with a rash and he gags after drinking when drinking from the bottle.

Any suggestions?

Try switching to a different bottle? Could be an allergy to the plastic.

190 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:25:53pm

re: #185 freetoken

I disagree. It's been way too long for someone to tell the truth.

The arbitrary enforcement of bronze age prurient rituals is one of the great hypocrisies in modern American culture. Dan Savage is right on to call Americans on this hypocrisy, and in the blindness of the Social Conservative movement to their own bigotry.

It actually fits in with what a lot of young Evangelicals are saying. They're reading their bibles, as they've been told, and they find a hell of a lot of talk about poverty and very little about gay people, and none about abortion. Focusing just on Jesus, they find nothing about gay people (except from one of the apostles), but they find Jesus himself condemning divorce.

There's been a lot of movement among young Evangelicals to refocus away from the gay-bashing already.

191 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:26:00pm

re: #189 Gus

Try switching to a different bottle? Could be an allergy to the plastic.

She is doing that as we speak.

192 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:26:33pm

re: #187 allegro

Oh, bullshit. It's the tiptoeing and mincing about with woo of all stripes that has resulted in a shockingly ignorant population of people who believe the sun revolves around the earth and Jesus rode dinosaurs a couple of thousand years ago.

Bullshit is an entirely descriptive term especially when these backward beliefs are being used to hate and bully.

But if you say that sort of blunt thing, 40% of the population tunes you out to greater or lesser degrees. If you want to change things, focus on selling ideas that can be used to move someone in your direction. Don't 'truth-tell', Sell!

193 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:26:47pm

re: #184 Gus

He didn't "attack the Bible." He was rather specific: “We ignore bullshit in the Bible about all sorts of things.”

By extension, if the Bible is asserted to contain "bullshit", then it follows that the Bible must be n% "bullshit".

Now, I think the term "bullshit" isn't sufficiently accurate to describe what is really going on - it's a far too flexible word to use. I'd prefer to describe bronze age Canaanite hill peoples' hang ups in more detailed terminology. Yet I can understand how in a polemical setting using "bullshit" is probably the best one can do.

194 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:26:58pm

re: #191 b_sharp

She is doing that as we speak.

See. I'm a born mother.

//

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:27:01pm

re: #188 b_sharp

I need some mom help.

I was just talking to my daughter and the little guy is on formula because my daughter isn't producing any milk, but his cheeks turn red with a rash and he gags after drinking when drinking from the bottle.

Any suggestions?

Is the formula lactose-based, and is he possibly lactose intolerant? Also, what Gus said.

I'd call the advice nurse or similar.

196 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:28:23pm

re: #188 b_sharp

My wife says to go to the hospital, at the very least call a doctor right away if there's a rash. Could be an allergy, could lead to anaphylactic shock. This is a newborn, right?

Does the kid's face look like it got slapped?

197 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:28:40pm

re: #194 Gus

See. I'm a born mother.

//

You're just logical. I suggested she try a different nipple moments before I read your comment.

198 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:29:10pm

I'd change formula to one of the ones with the pre-broken down amino acids. We had some of that handy when we first adopted.

199 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:29:15pm

re: #190 Obdicut

It actually fits in with what a lot of young Evangelicals are saying. ...
There's been a lot of movement among young Evangelicals to refocus away from the gay-bashing already.

I suspect that some of the outrage coming from the older SoCon crowd arises out of this fear - that they are losing control of their young people. Even their young who are remaining religious are turning towards new modes of thinking. There is a rise of "progressive Christians" from within the evangelical rank, and the fundamentalists are circling their wagons.

200 Digital Display  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:29:47pm

re: #195 SanFranciscoZionist

Is the formula lactose-based, and is he possibly lactose intolerant? Also, what Gus said.

I'd call the advice nurse or similar.

Yea..I was going to say try a different formula..cause of the rash on the cheeks..But babies spit all the time on bottles

201 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:31:10pm

re: #196 Obdicut

My wife says to go to the hospital, at the very least call a doctor right away if there's a rash. Could be an allergy, could lead to anaphylactic shock. This is a newborn, right?

Does the kid's face look like it got slapped?

no, red blotchy with white spots.

202 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:31:53pm

re: #193 freetoken

By extension, if the Bible is asserted to contain "bullshit", then it follows that the Bible must be n% "bullshit".

Now, I think the term "bullshit" isn't sufficiently accurate to describe what is really going on - it's a far too flexible word to use. I'd prefer to describe bronze age Canaanite hill peoples' hang ups in more detailed terminology. Yet I can understand how in a polemical setting using "bullshit" is probably the best one can do.

Isn't that why they created the Protestant Church? Because they called "bullshit" on the Catholic Church? I think most people, unless they're true literalists/adherents frequently call "bullshit" on many biblical or church teachings. There's not only the gay issues. There's divorce, contraception, abortion, etc. Everyday issues.

203 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:32:23pm

re: #201 b_sharp

no, red blotchy with white spots.

Any fever? If fever, then bad. If the stuff only happens with the formula and the bottle, less bad.

204 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:33:02pm

re: #201 b_sharp

no, red blotchy with white spots.

That's why I wondering. Could be silicone or latex involved.

205 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:33:31pm

re: #203 Obdicut

Any fever? If fever, then bad. If the stuff only happens with the formula and the bottle, less bad.

no fever. lots of bad smelling gas.

206 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:33:41pm

re: #201 b_sharp

My wife really encourages you to call someone so they can run through the list of questions (like: does the rash disappear when you push on it, then come back when you release? What was the mom's vaccination status?) etc.

207 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:33:45pm

re: #199 freetoken

I suspect that some of the outrage coming from the older SoCon crowd arises out of this fear - that they are losing control of their young people. Even their young who are remaining religious are turning towards new modes of thinking. There is a rise of "progressive Christians" from within the evangelical rank, and the fundamentalists are circling their wagons.

The question is: Are they Christians first and Progressives second? If they are, they've got a chance. But if they're progressives first, then they're just going to go in for the same tired policies and tropes that have left Illinois at the brink of financial catastrophe. And as such, I think they'll just fade away. To be authentic, they must be firm in faith in God, not faith in government.

208 allegro  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:34:10pm

re: #192 Dark_Falcon

But if you say that sort of blunt thing, 40% of the population tunes you out to greater or lesser degrees. If you want to change things, focus on selling ideas that can be used to move someone in your direction. Don't 'truth-tell', Sell!

It seriously appears that those students planned to walk out before he ever started to speak. How would a gentler presentation be more persuasive? Those who are invested in the inerrancy of their woo beliefs aren't willing to listen regardless of realities.

209 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:34:11pm

re: #202 Gus

The Protestants directly called the Roman Church as "Babylon", and the Pope as an "Antichrist".

Really, this outrage over "bullshit" is itself bullshit. This is all about staging a Christians-are-victims-in-America campaign to turn out the vote.

210 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:35:06pm

re: #206 Obdicut

My wife really encourages you to call someone so they can run through the list of questions (like: does the rash disappear when you push on it, then come back when you release? What was the mom's vaccination status?) etc.

I'm in favor of that. And the gas makes me think even more of lactose.

211 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:35:08pm

re: #206 Obdicut

My wife really encourages you to call someone so they can run through the list of questions (like: does the rash disappear when you push on it, then come back when you release? What was the mom's vaccination status?) etc.

good idea.

the skin turns white then back to red.

212 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:35:54pm

re: #188 b_sharp

I need some mom help.

I was just talking to my daughter and the little guy is on formula because my daughter isn't producing any milk, but his cheeks turn red with a rash and he gags after drinking when drinking from the bottle.

Any suggestions?

As a general rule bilateral is bad. Get real medical advice immediately.

213 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:36:07pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

From what I've read online and heard via Podcasts it appears that many young people who are "churched" really don't want to be associated with fundamentalism, and part of that is giving up caring about the old social tropes that have been hauled out over the past decade.

214 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:36:07pm

re: #187 allegro

More dings

215 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:36:52pm

re: #209 freetoken

The Protestants directly called the Roman Church as "Babylon", and the Pope as an "Antichrist".

Really, this outrage over "bullshit" is itself bullshit. This is all about staging a Christians-are-victims-in-America campaign to turn out the vote.

Jan Hus. Burned at the stake.

216 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:37:15pm

re: #202 Gus

Isn't that why they created the Protestant Church? Because they called "bullshit" on the Catholic Church? I think most people, unless they're true literalists/adherents frequently call "bullshit" on many biblical or church teachings. There's not only the gay issues. There's divorce, contraception, abortion, etc. Everyday issues.

No, it was because Martin Luther got sick of the Chicago-style corruption the Catholic church had fallen into. And on that score, his breaking with the Church did serve as a needed catalyst that ultimately led to the Council of Trent and the end of most corrupt practices with the Catholic Church. Not a complete removal of corruption, though, as something as big as the Roman Catholic Church will never be corruption free.

217 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:37:42pm

re: #212 goddamnedfrank

As a general rule bilateral is bad. Get real medical advice immediately.

She's on the phone with a medical expert now. She'll call me as soon as she's finished. We may have to take him back to the hospital.

218 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:38:38pm

if the literal word of the scriptures is so important, why aren't they boycotting divorce court?

jesus never mentions gay people, but he majorly rags on divorce

219 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:38:41pm

re: #194 Gus

See. I'm a born mother.

//

Just piping in -laughed ot loud

220 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:39:21pm

re: #211 b_sharp

good idea.

the skin turns white then back to red.

Well, that's also good. It's really probably just an allergy, but according to my wife, there's no such thing as lactose intolerance in babies, BUT there is a metabolic defect that they can have that will make them entirely unable to digest milk (formula or otherwise).

And she again encourages you to call a nurse or doctor line.

221 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:40:17pm

re: #218 engineer cat

if the literal word of the scriptures is so important, why aren't they boycotting divorce court?

jesus never mentions gay people, but he majorly rags on divorce

"Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together." -- Deuteronomy 22:11!!!!!

222 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:40:40pm

re: #221 Gus

"Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together." -- Deuteronomy 22:11!!!

That's actually good fashion sense.

//

223 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:41:12pm

re: #220 Obdicut

Well, that's also good. It's really probably just an allergy, but according to my wife, there's no such thing as lactose intolerance in babies, BUT there is a metabolic defect that they can have that will make them entirely unable to digest milk (formula or otherwise).

And she again encourages you to call a nurse or doctor line.

She's doing that right now.

224 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:41:44pm

This outrage is part of a larger machination that saw outrage - remember this - over Obama daring to, in his first speech as President, acknowledge the non-religious among Americans.

Remember that?

Do you remember the outrage over the administration saying the US was not a Christian nation?

This latest outrage is just part of this same stream of angst - that finally, after so many years, it is becoming evident that the visible figures in this country can stop pretending.

225 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:42:13pm

re: #223 b_sharp

It's probably just colic or a mild allergy or something but always better safe than sorry. There's a big list of scary infections babies can get, disorders that present quickly after birth, etc. My wife is studying for her step 1 boards right now and I've had terrifying lectures playing in the house for weeks.

226 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:42:59pm

A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God!!!!!

227 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:45:16pm

re: #226 Gus

A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God!!!

Are jeans and a t-shirt men's or women's?

I'm dooomed!

228 dragonfire1981  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:45:28pm

I wonder how many of the kids who walked out will potentially be future wingnut bloggers? You don't have to have much in the way of journalism skills to do that.

Mark me down as one Christian who flat out REFUSES to hate, degrade, demean or mistreat gay people in the name of my religion.

That's not what Jesus said and that's not how he acted. I treat every person with respect REGARDLESS of who they are. Gay, Muslim, Jewish, Japanese, White, Black, Mexican. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Everyone deserves basic respect and human dignity.

Oh and to answer the question as to why some Christians are more than willing to accept Biblical law but NOT something like Sharia Law despite the apparent similarities...

...Many Christians feel their religion and their God is the one true religion and the one true God. Hence, it makes sense to follow what the one true God tells you to do and NOT follow any teachings of false religions or false Gods.

The Bible in fact specifically warns Christians to not follow false teachings or false prophets.

Therefore it's considered ok to say, take away women's rights so long as those actions are in line with the Bible instead of the Koran.

229 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:45:44pm

re: #226 Gus

I ate a Sharia turkey then said bullshit a few times.... will I be a gay Muslim when I wak.......

(blumph)

230 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:46:00pm

re: #227 wrenchwench

Are jeans and a t-shirt men's or women's?

I'm dooomed!

What about a Kilt?

"Kilts are OK men. Just skip the pantyhose."

//

231 dragonfire1981  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:46:20pm

Oh and by the way, I've read the Constitution, the Bill of Rights AND the Declaration of Independence multiple times and I still don't see anything stating the U.S. was ever intended to be a Christian nation.

232 Digital Display  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:46:27pm

re: #226 Gus

A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God!!!

Well He tried to save us from Bosom Buddies on TV..Did we listen?

233 b_sharp  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:46:36pm

re: #225 Obdicut

It's probably just colic or a mild allergy or something but always better safe than sorry. There's a big list of scary infections babies can get, disorders that present quickly after birth, etc. My wife is studying for her step 1 boards right now and I've had terrifying lectures playing in the house for weeks.

Thank her for the help, and I thank you too, I appreciate the help.

234 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:46:37pm

re: #226 Gus

A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God!!!

Yeah, that sounds like an entity that's just stuffed full of love and benevolence.

235 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:46:49pm

re: #226 Gus

There used to be outrage at Milton Berle for some of his routines (where he'd put on women's clothing.) The old time fundamentalists didn't like it at all.

236 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:47:22pm

re: #235 freetoken

There used to be outrage at Milton Berle for some of his routines (where he'd put on women's clothing.) The old time fundamentalists didn't like it at all.

You ever see those really old John Wayne flicks?

237 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:47:24pm

If I wore lesbian clothing.... would that be OK?

238 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:47:55pm

re: #235 freetoken

There used to be outrage at Milton Berle for some of his routines (where he'd put on women's clothing.) The old time fundamentalists didn't like it at all.

Milton Berle was in a Ratt video!


239 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:48:01pm

re: #228 dragonfire1981

Organized Walkouts: A Left-Wing Asshole Tactic since taken up by the Right Wing. What those SoCons walking out don't seem to get and/or care about is that using an asshole tactic is acting like an asshole. And Jesus isn't too fond of assholes.

240 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:48:14pm

re: #235 freetoken

People see this as just camp, but it was pretty edgy for its time:

Image: klinger.jpg

241 dragonfire1981  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:48:34pm

re: #234 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, that sounds like an entity that's just stuffed full of love and benevolence.

God, as described in the Old Testament, could be described as somewhat "mean spirited". It's quite fascinating to see the significant change in the perceptions and actions of God (Old Testament) and God/Jesus (New Testament).

242 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:48:49pm

re: #236 Gus

You ever see those really old John Wayne flicks?

Not sure which ones you are referencing.

However, I'm in the middle of watching Rear Window and it's obvious that Hitchcock wanted to give the censors the middle finger again.

243 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:49:48pm

re: #229 Kronocide

I ate a Sharia turkey then said bullshit a few times... will I be a gay Muslim when I wak...

(blumph)

Was it a heritage breed or mass farmed? Because eating a halal-prepped heritage breed means you're a "Lousy Hippie" as well as a Muslim.

//

244 PeterWolf  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:50:18pm

I wondered too whether or not the walkout was planned. What was missing was any looks of outrage. Though, they did simply walk out without heckling. They have every right to leave, but, where's the big deal?

His comments on the bible seemed reasonably accurate. I actually chuckled at his reference to Calista Gingrich. Mind you, what seems to be missing from the bible is equality, when it comes to virgins. Does the son not have to be dragged to his father's door and stoned if he isn't a virgin?

Anyway, unless Savage's interpretation of the bible was inaccurate, perhaps those good christians should file for an amendment to the bible, purge those sections that he quoted that they do not like being used against them. Oh wait, that'd open a can of worms wouldn't it. Never mind King James.

I'm an agnostic most days, generally an atheist on Monday mornings when getting up for work.

245 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:50:29pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

Organized Walkouts: A Left-Wing Asshole Tactic since taken up by the Right Wing. What those SoCons walking out don't seem to get and/or care about is that using an asshole tactic is acting like an asshole. And Jesus isn't too fond of assholes.

Those assholes, all wanting equal rights for black assholes

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:50:38pm

re: #218 engineer cat

if the literal word of the scriptures is so important, why aren't they boycotting divorce court?

jesus never mentions gay people, but he majorly rags on divorce

This is the core of why Dan's argument, however clumsily stated, is a valid one: literal interpretation is clearly influenced by a variety of other social factors, as well as ideas about 'swelling revelation'.

(Myself, I am partial to the idea that the soldier in Matthew who comes to ask for his servant to be healed represents some sort of unspoken assent to a same-sex relationship on the part of Jesus. But that's a different kettle of worms.)

The problem is that this is not relevent. Believers can interpret the Bible in any way that occurs to them, and believe you me, we've come up with a full range. What's actually important is that, as a free and secular society that promises full rights to all of its citizens, what any of us religious types believe about the Bible and what it says is only important to us. We cannot claim the right to harm others, or remove their rights, on the basis of how we engage the text.

That's why the 'hurr, hurr, no one avoids shellfish or mixed fibers any more' is a poor argument, as well as an untrue one. The key argument is that when we talk about our schools, our laws, and our public places, the text we need to look to is not the Bible.

(Which does not prevent me from promoting much policy, and making my vote, on the ground of what my faith teaches me. But that's MY vote, and MY voice, and I get to use it any way I like. And I generally keep my religious argument out of it, except when I'm fighting with other Jews.)

247 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:51:20pm

re: #237 Kronocide

If I wore lesbian clothing... would that be OK?

as a person of male gender, i have yet to take up the challenge to walk around the city all day wearing one of those t-shirts that say NOBODY KNOWS I'M A LESBIAN

i aim to alarm and confound

248 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:51:57pm

re: #245 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

Many of the students refused to sign a mandatory pledge that they would not participate in civil rights activity and faced expulsion from the segregated Burglund High School. This was the first mass student-led movement in the state of Mississippi.

assholes!

249 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:52:09pm

re: #242 freetoken

Not sure which ones you are referencing.

However, I'm in the middle of watching Rear Window and it's obvious that Hitchcock wanted to give the censors the middle finger again.

Not Wayne himself. But they were always doing the cross dressing thing even back in the silent film days. Wasn't that big a deal since it was still the theater for the most part.

250 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:52:32pm

re: #221 Gus

"Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together." -- Deuteronomy 22:11!!!

These days, you can get in a professional.

251 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:52:41pm

re: #241 dragonfire1981

God, as described in the Old Testament, could be described as somewhat "mean spirited". It's quite fascinating to see the significant change in the perceptions and actions of God (Old Testament) and God/Jesus (New Testament).

Tell it to the fig tree. Okay, yeah, the guy got better with the pr marketing skills, but in the end he's still presented as the same schmuck planning on showing up to the end times party with a sword and a lake of fire.

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:53:35pm

re: #237 Kronocide

If I wore lesbian clothing... would that be OK?

I think a flannel shirt is acceptable before the Lord.

253 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:54:05pm

re: #248 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

assholes!

I didn't know about that. I was thinking of speeches and political meetings in more recent times, not about schools in the 1960's.

254 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:54:26pm

re: #249 Gus

It was a standard of Vaudeville type live entertainment. People used to think seeing men in women's clothing was funny. Berle brought that over to TV a bit.

255 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:54:47pm

re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist

Believers can interpret the Bible in any way that occurs to them, and believe you me, we've come up with a full range. What's actually important is that, as a free and secular society that promises full rights to all of its citizens, what any of us religious types believe about the Bible and what it says is only important to us. We cannot claim the right to harm others, or remove their rights, on the basis of how we engage the text.

i've heard believers take the position that their faith commands them to interfere. they believe that the demands of their faith put them at odds with this fundamental principal of american democracy

256 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:54:57pm

re: #253 Dark_Falcon

I didn't know about that. I was thinking of speeches and political meetings in more recent times, not about schools in the 1960's.

walkouts have been around for a while

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:55:01pm

re: #241 dragonfire1981

God, as described in the Old Testament, could be described as somewhat "mean spirited". It's quite fascinating to see the significant change in the perceptions and actions of God (Old Testament) and God/Jesus (New Testament).

That's a bit of a quoting duel waiting to happen. For a great example, I recommend the scene from Heaven Help Us, where the rabbi visits a local church with his religious school class.

258 palomino  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:56:03pm

The "pansy ass" comment was kind of mean. Other than that, I don't think Savage has anything to apologize for: he called the parts of the Bible BS that almost everyone thinks are BS, but typically use nicer language because it's a sacred holy book. He didn't say the entire Bible or religion in general is bullshit, just the homophobic parts and others that we now nearly unanimously agree are totally antiquated.

Slavery, stoning of women, etc. were all rejected by most churches centuries ago. Why? Because they're inhumane practices that no longer fit in a modern world, i.e., they're bullshit. My favorite line from his speech: "On one of the most obvious moral questions in human history--slavery--the Bible got it wrong."

259 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:56:04pm

re: #256 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

walkouts have been around for a while

Live and learn.

260 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:56:14pm

re: #244 PeterWolf

Mind you, what seems to be missing from the bible is equality, when it comes to virgins. Does the son not have to be dragged to his father's door and stoned if he isn't a virgin?

The sanctity of the Baby Maker is of utmost importance. The concept that men could be sluts isn't even considered.

Control the uterus, control the world. BWAHAHAHA!

261 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:56:49pm

re: #244 PeterWolf

Mind you, what seems to be missing from the bible is equality, when it comes to virgins. Does the son not have to be dragged to his father's door and stoned if he isn't a virgin?

No, however there is a delightful bit from the Gemara where a young man attempts to divorce his wife after their wedding night on the grounds that she isn't a virgin, and is instead ordered flogged by the rabbis of the place. Their argument is that when he insists she was 'too open', he's either criticizing God's handiwork, or revealing his own licentious past, because he knows the difference.

262 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:57:02pm

re: #251 goddamnedfrank

There are of course arguments over everything in the NT. One useful site that has links to the spectrum of early Christian literature is [Link: www.earlychristianwritings.com...] .

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:57:56pm

re: #255 engineer cat

i've heard believers take the position that their faith commands them to interfere. they believe that the demands of their faith put them at odds with this fundamental principal of american democracy

Yes, I'm familiar with the argument.

We are a nation of rule of law, so they lose.

264 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:57:59pm

re: #241 dragonfire1981

God, as described in the Old Testament, could be described as somewhat "mean spirited". It's quite fascinating to see the significant change in the perceptions and actions of God (Old Testament) and God/Jesus (New Testament).

in judaism there is no hell, no being 'saved' or 'damned' - god only demands that you try to do what you can to make up for any harm you might have done other people

the way i see it, the jewish god, even in the old testament, is way more forgiving than the christian one

265 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:02:34pm

re: #264 engineer cat

The Manual of Discipline, at least in the English version I linked, does mention "everlasting perdition".

One thing I'd like see debated more often in public is the possibility that hell-fire & brimstone fundamentalist Christianity is more of an insight into Herodian era Judaism than contemporary American Judaism is. That might bring some sparks...

266 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:02:44pm
I don't expect any of my friends and none of my opponents on the left to agree with this, but their agreement is not required. The cost of President Obama's tenure has been extraordinarily high and continues to rise, but one of the (very few) good things things it has bought about is a renaissance in conservative thought and a flowering of the online means of its distribution. Conservatives were late to the online revolution, but because their ideas are right, their arrival online in full force has turned into a rout of the left, which is reduced to Think Progress, Media Matters and a shattered pretense of an agenda. They have plenty of power right now, but nothing to do with it and no agenda to propose and defend.

Bow before my immensely magnanimous flouring ginourmity.

267 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:03:22pm

re: #259 Dark_Falcon

Live and learn.

Bread and Roses

268 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:04:29pm

re: #265 freetoken

The Manual of Discipline, at least in the English version I linked, does mention "everlasting perdition".

One thing I'd like see debated more often in public is the possibility that hell-fire & brimstone fundamentalist Christianity is more of an insight into Herodian era Judaism than contemporary American Judaism is. That might bring some sparks...

there were other beliefs of the time in judaism that didn't survive the era, such as the debate about resurrection in "the world to come", whatever that was supposed to be

269 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:05:56pm

re: #266 Kronocide

Bow before my immensely magnanimous flouring ginourmity.

He thinks he has won the internet.

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:07:14pm

re: #268 engineer cat

there were other beliefs of the time in judaism that didn't survive the era, such as the debate about resurrection in "the world to come", whatever that was supposed to be

That's still much discussed in many circles. As is reincarnation, and a whole slough of other stuff.

271 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:07:31pm

but because their ideas are right, their arrival online in full force has turned into a rout of the left, which is reduced to Think Progress, Media Matters and a shattered pretense of an agenda.

and i'm squishing their heads.

squish, squish, i just squished your head, liberal

272 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:07:59pm

re: #268 engineer cat

there were other beliefs of the time in judaism that didn't survive the era, such as the debate about resurrection in "the world to come", whatever that was supposed to be

My point is that "it" did survive - and today we call it Christianity.

The core of Christianity is the teachings of variants of Jewish sects from the early to mid 1st century. Add heavy doses of Hellenic philosophy, and a few other pagan practices here and there... and Voilà!

273 engineer cat  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:08:44pm

re: #272 freetoken

My point is that "it" did survive - and today we call it Christianity.

The core of Christianity is the teachings of variants of Jewish sects from the early to mid 1st century. Add heavy doses of Hellenic philosophy, and a few other pagan practices here and there... and Voilà!

sounds likely

274 palomino  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:09:47pm

re: #267 Gus

Bread and Roses

According to the "intellectual right", everyone from Glenn Beck to Rick Perry to Jim Demint to Mark Levin, it was at that time that America started losing its way. The Progressive movement of the early 20th century, with its strikes for decent working conditions, its child labor laws, direct election of senators and granting women the right to vote, is the period that began the decline of America.

What else can you say except that these "modern thinkers" are literally a century behind the times, which of course calls their modernity into question.

275 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:10:02pm

re: #271 engineer cat

but because their ideas are right, their arrival online in full force has turned into a rout of the left, which is reduced to Think Progress, Media Matters and a shattered pretense of an agenda.

and i'm squishing their heads.

squish, squish, i just squished your head, liberal

Gets better. //

The blogging revolutionaries like Powerline and Instapundit have used continual improvement to spread sophisticated critiques of the president and crucial links to overlooked stories.

276 freetoken  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:10:03pm

I'll leave with this thought: Harold Camping may be more like the historical Jesus than many people would prefer.

277 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:14:33pm

re: #269 wrenchwench

He thinks he has won the internet.

renaissance in conservative thought indeed. What was that again?

STOP RAPING PEOPLE!

Slut shaming

Dog Jokes

Shutting down government

Christian oppression by gay bullies

94 abortion bills on the wall, 94 abortion bills. Write one down, vote it around, 95 abortion bills on the wall.

Keystone JOBS!

GAS is HIGH!

Where's the Certificate?

I'm at a loss as to what compelling idea has been presented by conservatives in the last 4 years.

278 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:15:04pm

re: #276 freetoken

I'll leave with this thought: Harold Camping may be more like the historical Jesus than many people would prefer.

Jesus told people to sell all they had and give it to the poor. As far as I can tell, Harold Camping tells his followers to sell all they have and give it to him.

Some distinction.

Also, Harold Camping, if he could heal the sick and the lame, probably wouldn't bother.

279 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:16:01pm

re: #274 palomino

According to the "intellectual right", everyone from Glenn Beck to Rick Perry to Jim Demint to Mark Levin, it was at that time that America started losing its way. The Progressive movement of the early 20th century, with its strikes for decent working conditions, its child labor laws, direct election of senators and granting women the right to vote, is the period that began the decline of America.

What else can you say except that these "modern thinkers" are literally a century behind the times, which of course calls their modernity into question.

Perry and DeMint are not members of the "intellectual right". They are conservatice office holders, but they don't publish books or write the articles that form the philosophical underpinnings of conservatism.

280 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:16:24pm

Hewitt = Snappy rat a tat tat derp in a bow tie.

281 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:17:16pm

re: #277 Kronocide

The rest is here.

I wrote the piece after spending Friday talking on air with Yuval Levin about the new book he has co-edited (see below) and after reading the new books by Arthur Brooks, The Road to Freedom, and by Jonah Goldberg, The Tyranny of Cliches, on back-to-back cross-country plane rides on Friday and Saturday. Quick, give me two brand new books detailing all that is right with the Obama years and the ideology driving it. They aren't there. They can't be written because the failure is so complete. The autopsies are beginning to arrive, and with them the recipes for recovery and renewal. We are on the edge of a great era in America, even as 1981-1985 was a complete turnaround from 1977-19980.

282 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:17:46pm

re: #279 Dark_Falcon

Perry and DeMint are not members of the "intellectual right". They are conservatice office holders, but they don't publish books or write the articles that form the philosophical underpinnings of conservatism.

And who does in this day and age of golden microphones and scrappy little 'right thinking' networks?

283 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:18:47pm

re: #280 Kronocide

Hewitt = Snappy rat a tat tat derp in a bow tie.

Behold! The corporate Christian renaissance is upon us! Submit ye libruls!

284 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:23:07pm

Jimmy Kimmel attacked conservative talk radio host Rush Limbaugh at Saturday's White House Correspondents' Dinner first calling him a slut and then jabbing him with a juvenile prescription drug joke.

The comedian also took a shot at HBO's Bill Maher while bashing Limbaugh and his "extreme" right-wing fans (video follows with transcribed highlights and commentary, mild vulgarity warning)...

Newbusters.

285 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:23:50pm

Is Hewitt impressed with Twitchy? Malkin's gossipy Twitter infused political tabloid?

286 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:24:07pm

I though Kimmel's line was funny:

And by the way, just to clear things up for the extreme right-wingers, here’s the difference between Bill Maher and Rush Limbaugh: the people who watch Bill Maher know he’s an asshole.

287 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:24:32pm

re: #285 Kronocide

Is Hewitt impressed with Twitchy? Malkin's gossipy Twitter infused political tabloid?

Probably. It's like a right-wing Twitter gang.

288 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:24:51pm

re: #282 Kronocide

And who does in this day and age of golden microphones and scrappy little 'right thinking' networks?

Rich Lowery does (National Review), as does Steven Malanga (City Journal), and Josh Barro in Forbes Magazine.

289 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:26:57pm

re: #286 Gus

I though Kimmel's line was funny:

And by the way, just to clear things up for the extreme right-wingers, here’s the difference between Bill Maher and Rush Limbaugh: the people who watch Bill Maher know he’s an asshole.

The other difference: Maher will demonstrate he understands it was a joke, even if he is pissed about it. Limbaugh will pretend its a threat and a mortal insult to increase his (perceived by his listeners) victim status.

290 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:29:14pm

re: #288 Dark_Falcon

Rich Lowery does (National Review), as does Steven Malanga (City Journal), and Josh Barro in Forbes Magazine.

So Lowery, Malanga, and Barro are carrying forth the intellectual torch of conservatism?

Cool. Cuz I thought it was Rush Limbaugh. But I'll try and read up on Malanga and Barro, never heard of them before.

291 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:29:19pm

I gotta stop fighting with people over on RawStory.

292 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:37:10pm

Breitbart:

Pro-Illegal Immigrant Group Uses Video Tricks to Lie About Hate Crimes

Irony Meter Blowed UP!

293 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:37:45pm

re: #290 Kronocide

So Lowery, Malanga, and Barro are carrying forth the intellectual torch of conservatism?

Cool. Cuz I thought it was Rush Limbaugh. But I'll try and read up on Malanga and Barro, never heard of them before.

Here's an article by Malanga, lambasting Illinois's bad financial decisions. It was quoted today in the editorial section of the Chicago Tribune.

This piece on Medicare
is an example of Barro's work.

294 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:41:43pm

re: #272 freetoken

My point is that "it" did survive - and today we call it Christianity.

The core of Christianity is the teachings of variants of Jewish sects from the early to mid 1st century. Add heavy doses of Hellenic philosophy, and a few other pagan practices here and there... and Voilà!

Their policy of "borging" pagan holidays into the Christian calendar was a masterful step. We reject your supernatural beings and substitute our own - who just so happen to celebrate festivals on the same days!

295 jytdog  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:47:34pm

re: #241 dragonfire1981

Sorry to say but this is a sort of theological racism that pervades a lot of traditional and popular christian thinking. I had to go seminary to get it out of me and am still working on it. A lot of it is Luther's doing, as he generated gobs of rhetoric in which he put the Catholic church of his day in the same bucket with "the jews" that he portrayed as opposing Jesus and called them both legalistic and vengeful; and put himself and Jesus in another bucket as offering freedom and love.

God is loving and God is a badass throughout the Bible and more than anything, "...my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)"

296 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:48:04pm

re: #281 Gus

The rest is here.

Jonah Goldberg, The Tyranny of Cliches

there is just something about him writing about cliche's that, oh, I don't know, seems to indicate as poor a grasp on the meaning of irony as perhaps Alanis Morissette?

297 jytdog  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:48:39pm

On topic however, thanks for posting the Savage video. He rocks. And thanks too for calling out the bullshit Breitbart response.

298 makeitstop  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:48:51pm

re: #238 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

Milton Berle was in a Ratt video!

[Embedded content]

Bobby Blotzer (drummer) was his nephew IIRC.

299 Gus  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:49:53pm

re: #296 William Barnett-Lewis

there is just something about him writing about cliche's that, oh, I don't know, seems to indicate as poor a grasp on the meaning of irony as perhaps Alanis Morissette?

Blogging revolutionaries like Powerline and Instapundit!!!

Derp.

300 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:51:32pm

re: #294 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Their policy of "borging" pagan holidays into the Christian calendar was a masterful step. We reject your supernatural beings and substitute our own - who just so happen to celebrate festivals on the same days!

Early Irish Christianity, as I see it, was sort of a five minute fire drill. "Attention. We will all be Christians in five minutes. Please pack any pagan beliefs you intend to bring with you during that time."

Years ago, I attended a class at an Irish university on Celtic religion. We learned quite a bit in the first few classes, and then the professor rolled on to carefully describe the annual pilgrimage to Croagh Patrick at the end of July. Pilgrims make their way to this giant glacial boulder sticking up out of the plains of county Mayo, on an evening close to the traditional feast of the Irish sun god, and make their way up the hill in a clockwise spiral (the really devout go barefoot). After a night's vigil, Mass is said, with the celebrant elevating the Host as the sun breaks over the horizon.

A deeply hostile voice out of the classroom said "My granny does that every year."

"So does my mam," the professor said serenely.

301 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:52:54pm

re: #172 Obdicut

The beetles totally outnumber the ants and some of them can produce napalm with their asses.

A prelate of the Anglican Church once asked J.B.S. Haldane, "What have you learned about our Creator from studying His work?"

Sir John replied, "He has an inordinate fondness for beetles."

302 Kragar  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:54:15pm

Just put some crab stuffed tilapia in the oven. Hoping it turns out ok, ran into some logistical problems during the preparation which I think I overcame.

303 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:55:35pm

re: #292 Kronocide

Breitbart:

Irony Meter Blowed UP!

Would you please remember to disconnect your irony meter before visiting Breitbart.com. Every second time you go there it blows up and new meters cost money.

//

304 allegro  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 6:56:31pm

re: #302 Kragar

Just put some crab stuffed tilapia in the oven. Hoping it turns out ok, ran into some logistical problems during the preparation which I think I overcame.

Tilapia aren't much bigger than guppies. How the heck do you stuff one?

305 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 7:04:10pm

re: #301 Romantic Heretic

Apocryphal, but pithy.

306 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 7:05:43pm

This is the Matrix.
Everything is bullshit.

307 Varek Raith  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 7:07:26pm
308 makeitstop  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 7:10:31pm

re: #307 Varek Raith

GOP says Obama playing politics with bin Laden anniversary
Sour grapes.

If OBL was taken out on Bush's watch, it would be a national holiday by now.

309 Kragar  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 7:15:07pm

re: #304 allegro

Tilapia aren't much bigger than guppies. How the heck do you stuff one?

The recipe said to roll them. I took 2 and put the crab stuffing between them.

310 Kragar  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 7:16:41pm

re: #306 Varek Raith

This is the Matrix.
Everything is bullshit.

The Matrix loses its mystic appeal when you realize that Neo was nothing more than a honeypot set up by the Machines in the DMZ of their network so they could observe how a virus worked and then develop the proper software patch.

311 palomino  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 7:25:24pm

re: #279 Dark_Falcon

Perry and DeMint are not members of the "intellectual right". They are conservatice office holders, but they don't publish books or write the articles that form the philosophical underpinnings of conservatism.

Downding for total inaccuracy. Perry's published two books, while Demint's had four of his conservative masterpieces published.

312 wheat-dogg  Sun, Apr 29, 2012 8:06:37pm

re: #16 wrenchwench

I'm just guessing, but I wonder if the group of students leaving were required to leave by their teacher. As I watched the vid, one guy left, obviously upset, then a moment later, a whole cluster of students preceded by a woman teacher with her head down. Some of the students did not look all that upset by Savage's remarks.

313 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Apr 30, 2012 1:39:49am

Interesting thread. I haven't listened to the speech, so at the risk of making a fool of myself in case Savage addressed this: the OT is not *the* problem. The NT is anti-gay, the Pauline/pseudo-Pauline epistles part. Take away OT -> fundies still anti-gay.

Sure, lots of fundies will go the OT route, since it's the most straightforward one. However they also have an apologetic trick worked out for not taking the clam-laws seriously. They will claim that the OT laws can be separated into those purely ritual ones and those based on timeless morality. Homosex is an abomination, while not eating shrimp is purely ritual and has been done away with (rituals change, morality doesn't). Any discussion of the fundie OT double standards is not complete without addressing their apologetics.

314 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 30, 2012 2:06:29am

re: #311 palomino

Downding for total inaccuracy. Perry's published two books, while Demint's had four of his conservative masterpieces published.

praise white conservative shitjesus

315 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 30, 2012 2:28:58am

re: #313 I'm a Mavrik!

Interesting thread. I haven't listened to the speech, so at the risk of making a fool of myself in case Savage addressed this: the OT is not *the* problem. The NT is anti-gay, the Pauline/pseudo-Pauline epistles part. Take away OT -> fundies still anti-gay.

Sure, lots of fundies will go the OT route, since it's the most straightforward one. However they also have an apologetic trick worked out for not taking the clam-laws seriously. They will claim that the OT laws can be separated into those purely ritual ones and those based on timeless morality. Homosex is an abomination, while not eating shrimp is purely ritual and has been done away with (rituals change, morality doesn't). Any discussion of the fundie OT double standards is not complete without addressing their apologetics.

Savage lays out blame pretty evenly, Timothy along with Leviticus.

But I maintain that an argument about apologetics or text analysis is quite useless. It's not what fundamentalists do with the text, it's the role of any interpretation of the text in setting the laws of an essentially secular society committed to religious pluralism. You can argue yourself blue in the face about HOW fundamentalists interpret scripture, but there's no point in doing that unless there's an implied promise that everyone will go along with them if they can make a really stunning case for their reading.

We're not going to do that. So unless you are a Christian, and actually interested in the correct interpretation of the text, discussing scripture is a bit of a derailing of the only real argument here: is we is or is we ain't going to pass laws according to anyone's Biblical interpretation.

316 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Apr 30, 2012 2:43:52am

re: #315 SanFranciscoZionist

Right, that's it at zoom level 1x.

However if we take a closer look...

First there's a tax-exemption issue. I would argue that religious institutions that preach active intolerance should be stripped of it. I mean, OK, if you don't want women, blacks or gays in your priesthood hierarchy, it's one thing. If you preach that women, blacks or gays are somehow intrinsically of the second class or even evil, no tax exemption for you. (These things are linked, but...).

Second, there's a societal interest in not letting this kind of thinking flourish. I disagree with the total "leave them alone" approach, since if left unchecked, this thinking may grow. Certainly, apart from the lever above, this should be done extra-legally, and that includes taking a look at the fundie thinking and rationally dissecting it. This kind of discourse was a part of the Enlightenment, and was a part of why the e.g. the Catholic Church of today is not the Catholic Church of 400 years ago.

317 Aye Pod  Mon, Apr 30, 2012 3:54:55am

re: #265 freetoken

The Manual of Discipline, at least in the English version I linked, does mention "everlasting perdition".

Just looking at that...

The guerdon of all who walk in such ways is multitude of afflictions at the hands of all the angels of destruction, everlasting perdition through the angry wrath of an avenging God, eternal horror and perpetual reproach, the disgrace of final annihilation in the Fire, darkness throughout the vicissitudes of life in every generation, doleful sorrow, bitter misfortune and darkling ruin-ending in extinction without remnant of survival.

Such a wonderful grasp of logic, whoever wrote this/

318 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Apr 30, 2012 6:32:17am

re: #205 b_sharp

no fever. lots of bad smelling gas.

Might point to lactose intolerance like was mentioned earlier.

319 teresa  Mon, Apr 30, 2012 6:37:57am

Being an old time Seattlelite, I was first introduced to the writing of Dan Savage in the early 1990's when he moved here to be editor in chief of The Stranger when I was in grad school. In person Dan is a nice, funny man.
In 2006 Dan mocked marriage when he married another reporter from The Stranger, a woman, a lesbian, I think they were married for 55 hours. The story is great and it is 100% Dan.
I remember laughing so hard when I read the story.
Every single time some rube gets angry at Dan, Dan wins.
And their lame attack about how Dan Savage would never say anything mean about Islam.. hahaha, well what about this and then there is this.
He is braver than they will ever be in a million fucking years, and the NotBreits hate that.

320 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Apr 30, 2012 6:48:01am

re: #231 dragonfire1981

Oh and by the way, I've read the Constitution, the Bill of Rights AND the Declaration of Independence multiple times and I still don't see anything stating the U.S. was ever intended to be a Christian nation.

And the Treaty of Tripoli cements that fact, being that it was unanimously voted for and ratified by many men involved with the founding of our nation, with the exact wording of:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

321 Bulworth  Mon, Apr 30, 2012 6:55:22am

I love Dan Savage. And I'm not even gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

322 Patricia Kayden  Mon, Apr 30, 2012 2:49:08pm

I wish Dan hadn't apologized. He spoke the truth. As a Christian, of course I have to admit that I do not obey every single thing written in the Bible. All Christians would have to say the same.

Why some Christians attempt to use the Bible to justify their homophobia is beyond me.


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